Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 7 ~ Nonfiction
Joan Grimes
July 6, 2005 - 06:40 am
  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."


CHRISTIANITY IN CONFLICT

St. Benedict
Gregory the Great
Papal Politics
The Greek Church
The Christian Conquest of Europe
The Nadir of the Papacy

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 1 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 2 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 3 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 4 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 5 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 6
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Joan Grimes
July 6, 2005 - 07:02 am
If you use subscriptions don't forget to subscribe to this new discussion.

Have fun!!

Joan Grimes

Malryn (Mal)
July 6, 2005 - 07:19 am
Hi to all of you intrepid travelers who post by the thousands here in S of C. Thanks for welcoming me back to the fold. I have little or nothing to say about Charlemagne, but Robby urged me by email to post.

So I'll tell you my genealogy-buff cousin Margie once traced the Stubbs side of my family all the way back to Charlemagne. It wasn't enough that we Stubbses are descended from artists, Margie was bound and determined to get some royal-blue cells mixed in with our just plain red ones.

I am still too close to the experiences of the past few months to be able to detach from them yet. I will tell you, though, that the Durants and the Story of Civilization have penetrated my subconscious. The first dream I had after I went into the nursing home was of being sick and helpless in Afghanistan, and looking at other nameless people who were lying sick on a hot, dusty street along with me. I woke thinking that's how it must be and how it's been through history.

There were other dreams about being sick and trapped. I spent time asleep trying to figure out ways to escape with only the diminished strength that I had at the time. Never did it occur to me to think there might not be a way.

The Hillcrest Convalescent Center has a large room filled with Physio and Occupational Therapy Recovery Toys. Before it was discovered that I had a staphylococcus MSRA urinary tract infection and I was more or less isolated from the rest of the patients in that nursing home, I was lying on a table in the rehab room waiting for exercises to begin. I looked around at all of the old people in that room who were working so hard to recover things they'd lost because of strokes or other illnesses.

Look at these brave and courageous old men and women, I thought. All trying so hard and all so fragile and vulnerable.. What was I doing there? I was told even in the hospital and at Hillcrest that I don't look as old as I am. I certainly don't think and feel "old", and it's hard for me to identify with most Senior Citizens -- especially those who are stuck in an often pleasant but very unchanging 1940's rut of their remembered youth..

I mention these things because I truly believe people haven't changed all that much through history. People lived and got sick. People died. Among them, just as now, there were people who gave up and people who were determined to to use whatever it took in order to live through and beyond what had knocked them down.

Is this what leaders have? The fighting motivation to succeed regardless of the odds and the natural and other forces against them? I don't know.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2005 - 04:32 pm
Our Mal's back where she belongs
All's right with the world.

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2005 - 04:34 pm
The Carolingian Decline

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2005 - 04:46 pm
"The Carolingian renaissance was one of several heroic interludes in the Dark Ages.

"It might have ended the darkness three centuries before Abelard had it not been for the quarrels and incompetence of Charlemagne's successors, the feudal anarchy of the barons, the disruptive struggle between Church and state and the Normans, Magyar, and Saracen invasions invited by these ineptitudes.

"One man, one lifetime, had not availed to establish a new civilization.

"The short-lived revival was too narrowly clerical. The common citizen had no part in it. Few of the nobles cared a fig for it. Few of them even bothered to learn how to read.

"Charles himself must bear some blame for collapse of his empire. He had so enriched the clergy that the power of the bishops, now that his strong hand was lifted, outweighed that of the emperor.

"He had been compelled, for military and administrative reasons, to yield a dangerous degree of independence to the courts and barons in the provinces. He had left the finances of an imperially burdened government dependent upon the loyalty and integrity of these rude aristocarats and upon the modest income of his own lands and mines. He had not been able, like the Byzantine emperors, to build up a buraucracy of civil servants responsible only to the central power, or capable of carrying on the government through all vicissitudes of imperial personnel.

"Within a generation after his death the missi dominici who had spread his authority through the counties, were disbanded or ignored and the local lords slipped out of central control.

"Charlemagne's reign was a feat of genius. it represented political advancement in an age and region of economic decline."

And this, too, shall pass away.

Or have I said that many times before?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2005 - 05:47 pm
Who were the CAROLINGIANS?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 6, 2005 - 06:03 pm
Here is an interesting link explaining the FEUDAL SYSTEM. Also included is an easily understood organizational chart plus related links.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2005 - 04:01 am
"The cognomens given to Charlemagne's successors by their contemporaries tell the story -- Louis the Pious, Charles the Bald, Louis the Stammerer, Charles the Fat, Charles the Simple.

"Louis the Pious (814-40) was as tall and handsome as his father -- modest, gentle, and gracious and as incorribibly lenient as Caesar. Brought up by priests, he took to heart the moral precepts that Charlemagne had practiced with such moderation. He had one wife and no concubines. He expelled from the court his father's mistresses and his sisters' paramours and when the sisters protested, he immured them in nunneries. He took the priests at their word and bade the monks live up to their Benedictine rule.

"Wherever he found injustice or exploitation he tried to stop it and to right what wrong had been done. The people marveled to find him always taking the side of the weak or poor.

"Feeling bound by Frank custom, he divided his empire into kingdoms ruled by his sons -- Pepin, Lothaire, and Louis 'the German' (whom we shall call Ludwig). By his second wife, Judith, Louis had a fourth son, known to history as Charles the Bald.

"Louis loved him with almost grandparental infatuation and wished to give him a share of the empire, annulling the division of 817. The three older sons objected and began eight years of civil war against their father. The majority of the nobles and the clergy supported the rebellion. The few who seemed loyal deserted Louis in a crisis at Roghfeld (near Colmar) which thereafter was known as the Lugenfeld, the Field of Lies.

"Louis bade his remaining supporters leave him for thir own protection and surrendered to his sons (833). They jailed and tonsured Judith, confined young Charles in a convent and ordered their father to abdicate and do public penance.

"In a church at Soissons Louis, surrounded by thirty bishops, and in the presence of his son and succssor Lothaire, was compelled to bare himself to the waist, prostrate himself upon a haircloth, and read aloud a confession of crime. He took the gray garb of a penitent and for a year was imprisoned in a monastery.

"From this moment a united episcopate ruled France amid the disintegration of the Carolingian house."

How does that expression go -- "No good shall remain unpunished?" And then of course "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2005 - 04:09 am
What is an EPISCOPATE?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 7, 2005 - 04:21 pm
I will refrain from posting Durant's remarks for a day or two until we can recover just a bit from the horror of the London bombing.

Robby

Bubble
July 8, 2005 - 05:17 am
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/07/opinion/edpabst.php

Why the West gets religion wrong.

Malryn (Mal)
July 8, 2005 - 06:26 am
When I was in the nursing home those five weeks I didn't see a single newspaper and didn't watch television news. I read about a book a day, and all I watched on TV was an hour's cooking show when I ate dinner alone in my room -- overdone pork chop, collard greens and canned wax beans. This is the South -- You can't imagine how peaceful it was, even with the hustle and bustle that went on in the hallway, patients often moaning or screaming "Help!" and somebody dying a couple of rooms away.

When I got home last Monday and turned on my computer, I was blasted with news on ISP home pages and everywhere else. This was proof positive that life goes on even when you turn its signals off.

That's why I think we should proceed with what Durant is telling us. Surely in history attacks like the one in London have happened before. And surely someone here can remind us of where, when and how.

In several SeniorNet discussions people are posting about the nightly bombings of London in World War II and how courageous and strong the British were then. The New York Times discussion about this tragedy has gone political -- who to blame, Bush or Blair?

What came to my mind is something I've thought of numerous times since the beginning of this discussion September 1, 2001, ten days before 9/11

Who is right? Is there any "right"? The perpetrators of this horrendous display of self-righteous hate and anger that killed and injured so many people in London, who are not guilty of anything except believing what they do, obviously think they're right. We in the West think we're right.

It's my opinion that nothing will be resolved until all of us ask some questions about ourselves and stop pointing a finger at others. Unbending self-confidence and resolve that what we believe is the "truth" leave no room for consideration of what others believe as truth. If we only could find some understanding to replace the hatred, then maybe all of us could "get along."

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 8, 2005 - 06:57 am
Good for you Mal, exactly what I think, everybody is right so let us stop the hatred or we will all perish.

winsum
July 8, 2005 - 08:45 am
is now legend, but admittedly very basic. Civilization is not basic any more but vastly complicated. . dream on. . . Btw Bubbles your article cut off after about a page or so. Maybe they didn't offer the whole story. Sometimes that's a teaser so we can be induced to sign up. ??? or whatever , a phrase we use often when having to give up on the irrational. . . .Claire

winsum
July 8, 2005 - 09:20 am
bubbles that newspaper wants a paid subscription even on line. but at half price. If you have a quote from them it needs to be printed out fully here if we are to read it.

"Get the IHT on your computer screen in the same layout you are used to on paper. Subscribe now at 50% off the single copy price. www.iht.newsstand.com/ee"

Traude S
July 8, 2005 - 11:41 am
ROBBY, thank you.

There is nothing wrong with observing a respectful moment of silence after being shaken by such a grim memento mori before resuming the daily grind as if nothing had happened and is if were not aware that we are all vulnerable.

We are way past deciding who is right and who is wrong, I'm afraid, and farther away than ever from "just getting along". We might reflect on that before going on with our lives as we must, of course.

Though I'm not much of a TV watcher, I try never to miss the news, irrespective of whether I'm home, in the hospital or in rehab. It's my way of staying involved.

MeriJo
July 8, 2005 - 11:51 am
robby:

It is indeed thoughtful for us to pause a moment in light of the London tragedy. So many families became heartbroken in just a matter of seconds as a result of this travesty. Thank you.

MeriJo
July 8, 2005 - 11:52 am
Bubble:

Thank you for your link. I was able to get all of it, and what a well-written observation it is! Thank you!

Scrawler
July 8, 2005 - 01:14 pm
I couldn't agree with you more, Mal. What we need now is "courage" not only for ourselves, but also for others - especially for our authority figures.

I've been doing a lot of research about the American Civil War over the past few years trying to get into the heads and hearts of those we lived during this time - not only of those we were major players, but also those who we just ordinary citizens like you and me and I came across some information about Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"Justice Holmes had a lot of "courage." He was willing to go on his own. That's sadly lacking in all of society today. I don't know about the people on the court now. I don't know whether they have any courage or not. It's certainly lacking in our society. People are not loners; they're lemmings now. Holmes had a lot of courage, and he spent all those nights reading by himself in a city that really didn't appreciate his work, his scholarship. He was willing to go it alone. He had a lot of courage in the Civil War, too...[And] he had the courage to buck Theodore Roosevelt, who had appointed him."

"I thought he was a great civil liberarian when I began. He had done some very nice libertarian things, but not for the reasons I thought. I thought he was shouting all the time about civil liberties, but he wasn't. There were only a few [truly liberatarian decisions], like the famous one that the Constitution allows freedom of thought, not only for the thought that we agree with, but for the thought that we hate. For me that's a rally cry. I think that's wonderful. But he didn't say many things like that. [At least] not as many as he was thought to have..." ~ Liva Baker, "Booknotes"

Throughout history there have been sevral instances of people having courage. But to me Holmes made his decisions not only from what he personally believed in, but he rose above himself and made decisions for all the people and on ideas that he himself hated. I think this takes real courage. And now more than ever it is time to rise above our own personal ideals and think of all peoples. Even if like Justice Holmes we have to go it alone!

robert b. iadeluca
July 8, 2005 - 03:45 pm
To get our minds back into the topic we were discussing (The Carolingian Decline) I am re-posting the last two of Durant's posts:-

"The Carolingian renaissance was one of several heroic interludes in the Dark Ages.

"It might have ended the darkness three centuries before Abelard had it not been for the quarrels and incompetence of Charlemagne's successors, the feudal anarchy of the barons, the disruptive struggle between Church and state and the Normans, Magyar, and Saracen invasions invited by these ineptitudes.

"One man, one lifetime, had not availed to establish a new civilization.

"The short-lived revival was too narrowly clerical. The common citizen had no part in it. Few of the nobles cared a fig for it. Few of them even bothered to learn how to read.

"Charles himself must bear some blame for collapse of his empire. He had so enriched the clergy that the power of the bishops, now that his strong hand was lifted, outweighed that of the emperor.

"He had been compelled, for military and administrative reasons, to yield a dangerous degree of independence to the courts and barons in the provinces. He had left the finances of an imperially burdened government dependent upon the loyalty and integrity of these rude aristocarats and upon the modest income of his own lands and mines. He had not been able, like the Byzantine emperors, to build up a buraucracy of civil servants responsible only to the central power, or capable of carrying on the government through all vicissitudes of imperial personnel.

"Within a generation after his death the missi dominici who had spread his authority through the counties, were disbanded or ignored and the local lords slipped out of central control.

"Charlemagne's reign was a feat of genius. it represented political advancement in an age and region of economic decline."

And this, too, shall pass away.

Or have I said that many times before?


Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 8, 2005 - 03:46 pm

The Bombing in London

London Lives

robert b. iadeluca
July 8, 2005 - 03:49 pm
"The cognomens given to Charlemagne's successors by their contemporaries tell the story -- Louis the Pious, Charles the Bald, Louis the Stammerer, Charles the Fat, Charles the Simple.

"Louis the Pious (814-40) was as tall and handsome as his father -- modest, gentle, and gracious and as incorribibly lenient as Caesar. Brought up by priests, he took to heart the moral precepts that Charlemagne had practiced with such moderation. He had one wife and no concubines. He expelled from the court his father's mistresses and his sisters' paramours and when the sisters protested, he immured them in nunneries. He took the priests at their word and bade the monks live up to their Benedictine rule.

"Wherever he found injustice or exploitation he tried to stop it and to right what wrong had been done. The people marveled to find him always taking the side of the weak or poor.

"Feeling bound by Frank custom, he divided his empire into kingdoms ruled by his sons -- Pepin, Lothaire, and Louis 'the German' (whom we shall call Ludwig). By his second wife, Judith, Louis had a fourth son, known to history as Charles the Bald.

"Louis loved him with almost grandparental infatuation and wished to give him a share of the empire, annulling the division of 817. The three older sons objected and began eight years of civil war against their father. The majority of the nobles and the clergy supported the rebellion. The few who seemed loyal deserted Louis in a crisis at Roghfeld (near Colmar) which thereafter was known as the Lugenfeld, the Field of Lies.

"Louis bade his remaining supporters leave him for thir own protection and surrendered to his sons (833). They jailed and tonsured Judith, confined young Charles in a convent and ordered their father to abdicate and do public penance.

"In a church at Soissons Louis, surrounded by thirty bishops, and in the presence of his son and succssor Lothaire, was compelled to bare himself to the waist, prostrate himself upon a haircloth, and read aloud a confession of crime. He took the gray garb of a penitent and for a year was imprisoned in a monastery.

"From this moment a united episcopate ruled France amid the disintegration of the Carolingian house."

How does that expression go -- "No good shall remain unpunished?" And then of course "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown."

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 8, 2005 - 03:49 pm
"Charles himself must bear some blame for collapse of his empire. He had so enriched the clergy that the power of the bishops, now that his strong hand was lifted, outweighed that of the emperor."
That says a lot to me.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 8, 2005 - 04:43 pm
Here is an excellent article on the POWER OF BISHOPS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 8, 2005 - 04:56 pm
Here is a picture of a KING DOING PENANCE.

Robby

Justin
July 8, 2005 - 11:14 pm
The sad part of the London story is that the two B's could have gotten those guys after they attacked the World Trade Center but they chose to ignore Al Qaida and go after Saddam Housein instead. Now we're stuck with Iraq and have no means left to address terrorists like those in Spain, New York, and London. Government can be so stupid sometimes it is pitiful. Just wait till the bombs go off in Chicago or some other big US city. Then we will really know how stupid the two B's have been.

Splitting the Kingdom among sons has always led to disaster. Alexander's and Charles the Great's splits are excellent examples of governments gone awry. In cases such as these the people are victims of royal over indulgence. In the case of England and the US we are victims of our own blindness.

Bubble
July 9, 2005 - 12:57 am
Not exactly the actual topic, but I found it interesting and wanted to share. AFTER THE ATTACK

http://www.lileks.com/screedblog/05/07/070805.html

"What does the soul of a people sound like? With the Germans, you have adequate proof; Wagner spoke for them, for better or worse – grandeur and myth that elevated the soul as easily as it rotted to the soundtrack for a meglomaniacal death cult. Italian music – well, no one ever marched off to war to Respighi’s ode to a peacock. Music for life, lived without lasting consequence. (They did their part in the Roman times; they’ve earned a nap.) French music is best expressed by the gauzy wash of Debussy and his comrades, music that doesn’t confront the ear but gently appeases it. America: cheerful tootling Souza marches or great broad optimistic Copeland yawps. Or jazz. Or rock and roll. Or country twangs. (It’s not that we have no sound – we have many, and each is as much a part of us as the other. Few cultures can pull that off.) Russian music has that delicious third-drink moodiness. Canadian music – no such thing, really, which is telling. Unless you define it as American style music recorded in a Canadian studio to satisfy a government requirement.

And the Brits?



This.

This is British music. More so than the regal fanfares or the Merseybeats or the Beatles or Ska or punk or any other wind that blew through and moved along. That melody is from “Jupiter,” a movement in Holst’s suite “The Planets.” It was used during WW2 to keep the home-front chin at the necessary angle, and you can see why. It has majesty, but it’s a particularly elemental sort of majesty – not so much the glory of kings but the stern deep power of the nation. It’s a theme for a King to enter, yes, but it also brings to mind a chap in the square on a ceremonial occasion, cap in his hand, head bowed not the King but for the land the King represented.

I’m no fan of kings and I have no interest in the British monarchy, but I am an admirer of England and understand the role the monarchy has played in the shaping of the culture. As an American I bow to no lord, but if I found myself in London today, standing with Britons in a square, and this tune played, I would bow my head. There is something about the song that compels to you bow your head, to stand still, to connect with something greater than yourself. And if you know the piece, it later erupts into wild demotic exuberant joy, a song for their V-E day as much as Glen Miller was the soundtrack for our Times Square celebration.

Does that Britain still exist? Will it reemerge after five more attacks, or retreat? I don't know enough to say, and defer to those who have a better understanding of contemporary England. But Thursday night I was on the Hugh Hewitt show, and the bumper music was old-style choral high-brit imperial glory stuff. I was thinking that it might be telling how the music that sounds so truly British is old, a remnant of the God-King-Country era that has no modern resonance aside from the force of cultural habit. You can find all sorts of contemporary American music that sums up Red State gung-ho values, but I’m not so sure what the British analogue would be today. They have to go back to the classics.

This might not be a good sign. The UK has taken such pride in becoming a postmodern 21st century polyglot country with indie cred – Rule Britannia replaced by Cool Britannia . It might be that the components of this multicultural Britain have little in common aside from the sense of having little in common. Is that enough?

Countries have national memories, national traits, but they’ve always been based in a certain amount of ethnic homogeneity. (To put it mildly. For Europe, nationalism was tribalism.) If you've moved beyond this, then what sort of core identity emerges after a great shock? What do you rise to defend? It is possible that a multiethnic society can unify along the lines of national identity; America proves that. But our foundational concepts are different. We’re the only true transnational country, inasmuch as our ideas are infinitely applicable. Our ethnic complexity began with refugees from all points of Europe, which is different from basing your national identity on beef-eating tars from Wales, Scotland, and assorted shires. Our ideals surpass ethnic identity, which is why a recent immigrant can get a lump in his throat when he hears the national anthem. Does someone who came to London last year from the West Indies respond on an elemental level to Holst like a fellow whose mum told him stories of the Blitz?

I don’t know, but I doubt it. At some point the old legacy culture is unbellyfeel to the newcomer. This puts Great Britain in an unusual position – its cultural heritage is more specifically ethnic, which makes it difficult to apply to other cultures, and its new self-definition as a melting pot means it has fewer means to unite the culture to face a specific threat.

But that’s the old way of looking at it; perhaps the new definition will be sufficient to form a unifying identity. In which case enough with the Holst; enough with the Brittan and the Walton and the lace-doily tea-and-crumpet summers-at-Brighton music, and bring on the ska and the punk and rap and all the other sounds that blend into one contentious racket that stands for the ability of people to live together on a hard northern rock.

In the beginning, America was next England; in the end, England ends up as the next America.

And gets bombed for it. Some believe that England was already America, inasmuch as both were ruled by fiendish quazi-nazis who tossed their nations into a war for grins and giggles. Some believe that the bombings in London, like the ones in Madrid, can be blamed on Bush and Blair for the Iraq campaign. It’s always interesting to see how people who pride themselves on sophisticated analyses and exquisitely tuned cultural sensibilities cannot see the plain home truths. The foe sneers: you are infidels; you die now. The moderns pull a face, steeple their fingers, and wonder what they really mean. Surely this is a result of invading Iraq and forcing them to have elections. Surely one of the bombers was an ordinary Iraqi who lived a peaceable life – well, aside from the time that Qusay’s men came by, took his daughter, returned her the next day as a broken heap who died from a vaginal hemorrage, and aside from the time when his brother was thrown off a roof because someone said he had turned his portrait of Saddam to the wall - surely it was the invasion that made this ordinary man take the understandable step of moving to London to kill commuters.

I know the 90s don’t matter at all; I know that nothing we believed in the 90s has any relevance, but you might want to heed a fellow named Osama who declared war on the West, and cited the sanctions against Iraq as one of his causus belli. Let us assume then that the Iraq campaign had never taken place. By now either the sanctions that so inflamed Osama’s sensibilities would still be in place, or they would have been removed due to international pressure. Saddam would still be in power, free to spend the Oil-for-Food money as he pleased, lavishing stipends on Palestinian suicide bombers, building up his own weapons programs without fear of international interference, having weekly meetings with Zarkawi. (Who would have been something other than a terrorist, of course. A chiropractor, perhaps. Or a botanist.) The situation in Lebanon would be unchanged; Libya would be happily pursuing its own agenda. And we would be safer? "


(to be follwed)

Bubble
July 9, 2005 - 01:00 am
"Yes! Because the Arab world would not be enraged by our removal of Saddam and imposition of representational government, and we could get back to the real work of combating terrorism by addressing the root causes. You know, tyranny and lack of representational government. But this assumes that Newsweek et al wouldn’t have run with the Gitmo detainee stories. This assumes that Osama would be mollified by the lifting of the sanctions, an assumption so naive it makes the statue in the Lincoln Memorial weep on your behalf. This assumes that the London bombers’ mention of Afghanistan was just a rhetorical device, and they really have no fellow-feeling for the Taliban and their recent troubles. This assumes that all that stuff about the tragedy of Andalusia was just boilerplate, and they really aren’t animated by the loss of Muslim Spain.

One of the curious facts about the enemy: they may time their bombings down to the second, but their clocks count off the centuries.

They did not bomb London because there is insufficient transparency in Congress about the Gitmo detainees; they bombed London because it is part of the Zionist-Crusader Conspiracy run by the sons of monkeys and pigs, who must submit or die.

Any questions?

Ummm, how does it end? I don’t know. Not well for quite a few, I fear. And not well for quite a few, I hope. As for Jupiter, Bringer of Jollity, it ends like this. As for us, we should be so lucky as to find such joy in our lives as you hear at this movement’s conclusion.

There will always be this music in someone’s soul somewhere – and at least in in that simple sense, there will always be an England."

robert b. iadeluca
July 9, 2005 - 03:33 am
I had thought that a couple of days would be sufficient to pause from Durant for a while but apparently more is needed. Shall we hold off for a couple of more days? Any comments about those two postings by Durant that I RE-posted?

Robby

Bubble
July 9, 2005 - 04:20 am
Robby, it is hard to put aside because there is that impending feeling that it is going to happen again, and soon.

Louis the Pious seemed to have been a good man, but it did not help with his sons. One wonders if hereditary head of state is such a good thing, even when the heirs are being prepared for the task. Am I right in thinking that todays Kings and Queens have more of a representative role than real governing?

One hear very little of the deeds of Queen of Holland or of Denmark, King of Spain or Belgium.

winsum
July 9, 2005 - 09:05 am
I've known it before but it was used at the nine eleven memorial and belongs to it forever. when I hear it. . . .Such occasions color the music itself. Claire

Scrawler
July 9, 2005 - 09:31 am
The question I think we have to ask ourselves is whether or not two different idealogies can coexist? And if the answer is No than we [the people] better find a fox-hole and crawl into it because the terrorists have made it clear that no matter what our government does or doesn't do they know where we live and can attack us at anytime; at any place. And this like guerrilla warfare will make it difficult to find a lasting peace.

I am reminded of what U.S. Grant said at the beginning of 1865:

"...Even worse, Lee and his men could head for the hills and inaugurate a guerrilla war, a fearsome specter to Grant, who remembered all too well his experiences in Tennessee. and Mississippi. His harsh orders to Sheridan to lay waste to the Shenandoah Valley and to execute John S. Mosby's men reflected a rage born of frustration. GUERRILLA WAR CREATED DISORDER AND CONFUSION, transforming the way men waged war and influencing the way they made peace. Military victory would be difficult to achieve and would be costly. A peace based upon reconciliation would be nearly impossible."

I think we now have DISORDER AND CONFUSION. What is next will be up to the people?

robert b. iadeluca
July 9, 2005 - 10:12 am
I find it interesting that over the past 3 1/2 years while discussing The Story of Civilization, some participants have dropped out claiming that there was too much emphasis on violence. So over the past three days I have refrained from printing text by Durant and what am I finding? Post after post about violence.

There must be a message here somewhere.

Robby

MeriJo
July 9, 2005 - 10:54 am
robby:

With regard to the link you posted about the power of the bishops, I want to thank you for it. It is very clear for me, and clarifies some aspects of the changes that took place at Vatican II.

I spent many years just being practical and missed out on these details.

As for your excerpts from Durant: These were developmental times for humanity in the West. There was much going on. Charlemagne became old and in placing trust in his sons they somehow didn't follow his wonderful and visionary reign, but his reign had occurred and aware of it or not his heirs and the people were affected and instructed by it.

The Church was not sure of its role either. It stumbled around as far as I can see in asserting order, trying very hard to do so from a standpoint of moral principle. The times were right now in light of the weak heirs to the throne of the Holy Roman Empire for the bishops to rise in power. At this time they believed they had a right to a temporal power as the nobles did. They had lands and property to protect and had mounted an army.

In time, and with people being people, among them one or more would rise above the crowd, and begin to object to such a preponderance of temporal strength by the bishops.

As for the violence we have seen in London, this is a continuation of human development. The Muslims are becoming divided and those with an understanding that true Islam is not a violent religion, are in complete dismay with the radicals in their group. The extent to which this violent group has gone is clarifying to the followers of Islam that there needs to be a stop to this. There is no plan - just disruption - their way or no way - and yet this volent group is so ignorant of the world and its far reaches that I think the leaders will soon find themselves out of favor with those they try to induce to kill themselves. The weak motive for revolution will soon become apparent to them - hopefully, the sooner, the better. It is certainly probable that those volunteering for such suicide attempts are going to realize that there is no going back once that detonator is set off - either by themselves or by one who is designated to detonate it for them in the event they want to back out.

winsum
July 9, 2005 - 11:50 am
see article from the washington post

Women rule Claire

Justin
July 9, 2005 - 12:57 pm
Claire: Thanks for posting from the Post. I am very pleased to see women fighting back. It is time they held the reins in some of the African nations where abuse of women is customary. If a woman in Nigeria can rise to the Presidency, surely, we in the US can do the same. I am sure we would not now be in Iraq killing our young men for an empty cause if Hilary were now in the Chair.

winsum
July 9, 2005 - 01:34 pm
for getting into the act. We're not supposed to be political but sometimes it can't be helped.That seems to be what this series is about. Only it's historical political with occasional current allowances . . . Claire

MeriJo
July 9, 2005 - 02:00 pm
winsum:

Your post is encouraging news for that part of the world. Thanks for posting it.

Traude S
July 9, 2005 - 07:45 pm
It is good, encouraging and hopeful to hear about the success of women, women everywhere, including those in developing countries.

But even in our own country where women have broken through the "glass ceiling", a woman still makes roughly a quarter less of every dollar a man makes doing the same job. "Women have come a long way, baby" --- well, maybe, for example in "non-traditional" jobs, as electricians, truck drivers and police personnel.
But none of it was easy - witness the discrimination suits filed by women as a result of men's fierce resistance. Age-old concepts are not changed over night - it takes generations.

The study of history shows us, among other things, that no period of prosperity, enlightenment or (relative) peace lasts indefinitely, and that in fact harmony and peace are elusive. The swings of the pendulum apply to countries and to nations, to dynasties as well as "ordinary" families.

When I was little and supposed to be in bed, I overheard a discussion of just that but too young to understand it. The memory lingered and, after decades, I can see it quite clearly.

There's another thought I'd like to articulate, if I may, but I'll do that tomorrow.

Justin
July 9, 2005 - 10:14 pm
I have a woman friend who is a rabbi.She makes 45K a year doing an enormous number of social tasks. Her husband, a technical V.P.for a small company, makes 200K per year. The diference is substantial but her rewards are not monetary and she has climbed over a wall that has been in existance for millennia. .

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2005 - 03:13 am
Only one person commented on Durant, this meaning to me that participants here are not yet ready to return to "The Story of Civilization."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 10, 2005 - 04:24 am
This article in this morning's NY Times emphasizes the POWER OF BISHOPS. Any further comments about the power of Bishops in the time of Charlemagne and his heirs?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 10, 2005 - 06:23 am
I don't know about anyone else, but I am able to find numerous articles about women and their status throughout the world on my computer. There are more articles about terrorism, why it has always existed in this world, and suggested ways to counteract it accessible with my computer than I could read in a lifetime.

There is, however, only one place on the World Wide Web that I know of where there is a discussion of Will and Ariel Durant's Story of Civilization going on. I was away from a computer for weeks and weeks. My head was not clear enough at that time to read The Age of Faith. I have longed to get back to this discussion and to be able to post and read and consider and think about comments about Story of Civilization that have been posted by others.

So, can we, please?

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 10, 2005 - 07:26 am
Sorry Robby, but our wonderful summer is here and it is a very demanding friend, it beckons me all day long and I can't resist. I just pass through here each day and as long as summer stays sunny and warm like this I can't find anything more interesting to do than enjoy it for the short time it will be in beautiful Montreal.

Éloïse

Traude S
July 10, 2005 - 10:00 am
ROBBY, MAL, it was not my intention to head off in a different direction; I merely added a reply to what had been briefly mentioned.

However, we did pause briefly to talk about leadership, both in general terms and in the context of Supreme Court vacancies. The African continent also was briefly mentioned. That is perfectly natural, I think, because it is impossible to be totally disengaged from current events and challenges.

Last night I alluded to one of them that has not been mentioned here, and I will express it now: freedom of the press in light of the jailing of Judith Miller, whose case disturbs me. But I will not pursue it.

As for Durant's The Age of Faith, allow me to say that the historical facts he presents are not exactly an epiphany for me; I studied history, a favorite subject, all through high school, year after year and with keen interest.

I freely admit, however, that Durant's retelling and interpretation, his special focus (his own imprimatur, as it were) have astonished me at times - about Charlemagne's "harem", for example.

Hence my recent inquiry here about a bibliography. Thank you for your answer, TREVOR.

Of course I expected a bibliography among the appendices of each volume; what would interest me REALLY are the specific sources (their provenance and number), which Durant used for his rollicking assessment of Charlemagne.

I will continue to read ROBBY's quotations and the posts but will not intrude further at this time.

winsum
July 10, 2005 - 11:21 am
from the new york times?
"Guns, Germs, and Steel Monday, 10 pm ET/PT on PBS

This three-part PBS series is based on Jared Diamond's best- selling and Pulitzer prize winning book and attempts to answer the question, "Why were Europeans able to take over other cultures and disseminate so much influence?""

Claire

JoanK
July 10, 2005 - 05:26 pm
CLAIRE: I don't know if the PBS presentation will be good, but I loved the book. He doesn't always prove his case, but he asks such interesting questions Why have certain civilizations flourished and led the way? Why are these not the civilizations that are leading the way now?

And in the process of answering his questions, he presents so much interesting material!!

3kings
July 10, 2005 - 08:27 pm
TRAUDE S. For those specific references used by Durant for his "rollicking assessment of Charlemagne" as you put it you could try Eginhard, "Life of Charlemagne" N.Y., 1880 Pages 48 and 52. also Russell C. E., "Charlemagne", Boston 1930 page 262.

I think those will give you a start. There are more, but I hope they will suffice. I'm not too good a typing ( Poor spelling one fingered typist ) so do not post very much . LOL ++ Trevor

mabel1015j
July 10, 2005 - 08:41 pm
I've just read the posts of the last three days and you have provided so much food for thought. Thanks for all the links everybody, they were very interesting. I think winsum's link about the AFrican women does need some attention, not that specifically, but about women in all that we're discussing. The first thing that came to me when i went looking for the Durant information on line was that being a person with a graduate degree in history, i never knew that these books were written by Will AND ARIEL Durant. You may have already discussed this so i won't dwell on it, but i did notice that in his acknowledgements in the front of this book he doesn't mention her by name, he says "this book, like all the predecessors, whould have been dedicated to my wife who for 37 yrs has given me .........etc, etc."

In reading the section on the Caroligians i believe (i read it about 3 weeks ago, so i may have forgotten) there is no mention of women, except for the "harem." I recognize that that was typical of 1949, but i think it's important to bring it to our consciousness and perhaps think about whether that has any relation to the enormous amounts of war and violence of history. Yesterday on Book TV i heard a panel of men who were discussing the "awful state of textbooks" in high school and college today. I had some agreement w/ there concern that students aren't getting a foundation in Western Civilization, but one of them was mocking the fact that he had done a research of curricula and found a lot of courses and books of the genre "feminists look at international policy," etc., as though it was unacceptable for there to be this perspective on world cultures and politics. Another panelist was appalled that every college now has courses studying "peace."

I don't mean this in any "male-bashing" way, but i think it deserves some thought in relation to world history.

Justin
July 10, 2005 - 10:41 pm
Charlemagne provided a brief renaisance in the dark ages. It passed in a life time. In our American system of government we enjoy brief renaisances from time to time but they last no more than eight years. Since Charlemagne could not get the light to shine past his burial, it is optimistic for us to expect our light to exceed eight years. The American light once exceeded twenty years but that was a rare occurance.

The temporal strength of the Bishops and the encouraged power of the Papacy drove Europe back into the mire of superstition. Attacks by the Saracens, of course, left people little time for cultural recreation. When Louis the Pius split the kingdom among his three heirs and then reneged in favor of a fourth son he started a civil war. If he had been literate he might have been aware of all the splits of the past that led to civil war. Too bad King Lear had not been available.

One of Charlemagne's projects about which we have read little in Durant, is the recovery of the true text of the Bible. Through centuries of miscopying by ignorant scribes, the Bible had become almost hopelessly corrupt. The great project had been undertaken by Alcuin of York at the monastery at Tours. Part of the project was to correct the actual script used which, in the hands of scribes had become almost unreadable.The result is one of the great biblical revisions. There have been many such revisions over the centuries, of course.

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 04:23 am
"The last Carolingian kings -- Louis IV, Lothaire IV, Louis V -- were well-meaning men but they had not in their blood the iron needed to forge a living order out of the universal desolation.

"When Louis V died without issue (987), the nobles and prelates of France sought leadership in some other line than the Carolingian.

"They found it in the descendants of a marquess of Neustria significantly named Robert the Strong (d.866). The Odo who had saved Paris was his son. A grandson, Hugh the Great (d.956) had acquired by purchase of war almost all the region between Normandy, the Seine, and the Loire as his feudal realm and had wielded more wealth and power than the kings. Now Hugh's son, called Hugh Caper, had inherited the wealth and power and apparently the ability that had won them.

"Archbishop Adelbero, guided by the subtle scholar Gerbert, proposed Hugh Caper as king of France. He was unanimously elected (987) and that Caperian dynasty began which, in direct or colateral line, would rule France until the revolution.:

And this is how one becomes a king.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 04:25 am
Letters and Arts

814-1066

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 04:41 am
"Perhaps we exaggerate the damage done by the Norse and Magyar raids.

"To crowd them into a page for brevity's sake darkens unduly the picture of a life in which there were doubtless intervals of security and peace. Monasteries continued to be built throughout this terrible ninth century and were often the centers of busy industry. Rouen, despite raids and fires, grew stronger from trade with Britain.

"Cologne and Mainz dominated commerce on the Rhine and in Flanders thriving centers of industry and trade developed at Ghent, Ypres, Lille, Douai, Arras, Tournai, Dinant, Cambrai, Liege and Valenciennes.

"The monastic libraries suffered tragic losses of classic treasure during the raids and doubtless many churches were then destroyed which had opened schools on the lines of Charlemagne's decree.

"Libraries survived at the monasteries or churches of Fulda, Lorsch, Reichenau, Mainz, Trier, Cologne, Liege, Laon, Reims, Corbie, Fleury, St. Denis, Tours, Bobbio, Monte Cassino, St. Gall....

"The Benedictine monastery at St. Gall was acclaimed for its writers as well as for its school and its books. Here Notker Balbulus -- the Stammerer -- (840-912) wrote excellent hymns and the Chronicle of the Monk of St. Gall, here Notker -- the Thick-lipped -- (960-1002) translated Boethius, Aristotle, and other classics into German.

"These translations, among the first productions of German prose, helpd to fix the forms and syntax of the new tongue."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Bubble
July 11, 2005 - 04:42 am
I thought it was Capetian Dynasty???

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 11, 2005 - 05:29 am
Bubble, I verified that in Google immediately when I saw this, there is no such thing as the Caperian Dynasty, Is it a typo?

Malryn (Mal)
July 11, 2005 - 05:36 am
Capetian Dynasty

Traude S
July 11, 2005 - 07:32 am
ÉLOÏSE, it could well have started with a simple typo. In French history books Hugh Capet is known as Hugues Capet , his dynasty as Les Capetiens , and as "die Capetinger" in German.

Is it possible that no subsequent scholars/readers have stumbled upon this before? Was it ever corrected?

I have a question in connection with the subsequent quote, specifically
" ... tragic losses of classic treasure during the raids ..."


What raids, whose raids, when? Is there more or something previously inferred that I missed?

______________________________

MABEL/JEAN, your # 49 raises valuable questions.
From what I read about the Durants quite a few years ago, I understand that Ariel was Will's student, he renamed and married her; but only in the last few volumes does her name as co-author actually appear next to his. Yet there can be no doubt that both deserve equal credit for this monumental effort.

CLAIRE, thank you for # 46. I am interested in the PBS program you mentioned because I read Jared Diamond's book. I checked at once but discovered that the program is NOT being broadcast locally today. But having been alerted I will investigate further.

TREVOR, thank you.

Traude S
July 11, 2005 - 07:43 am
Just reread ROBBY's # 53 and conclude that the reference is to the Norse and Magyar raids. Ahh, the value of re-reading, every word, very carefully !

winsum
July 11, 2005 - 09:40 am
who could believe it would become this complicated. I'm concerned about the Judith Miller situation and also Matt Cooper's ''s.

Currently publishing protections and the freedom of the press are major issues.

in the NYT concerning also TiME magazine and Karl Rove

Claire

MeriJo
July 11, 2005 - 10:16 am
I have noticed misspellings here and there before the Capetian reference, but I thought it was just typos in the Durant copy.

Traude S
July 11, 2005 - 10:48 am
Well, Matt Cooper is off the hook, in the clear.

But what about Judith Miller? The judge said last week- somewhat calluously I thought- that (the rigors of) a stay in prison might convince her to reveal her source, whoever it was.

This bears watching!
It remains to be seen what will happen to Matt's acknowledged source, who has also been referred to in Washington circles as Karl the Great.

Malryn (Mal)
July 11, 2005 - 02:07 pm

Nokter Balbulus, composer of music

Malryn (Mal)
July 11, 2005 - 02:12 pm

Three Monks of St. Gall

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 05:17 pm
Maybe I have missed the point but I am confused and don't see the connection between Karl Rove and Judith Miller and the Carolingians.

Regarding typos - they are usually mine, not those of Durant. On my keyboard the "r" is right next to the "t." Please, folks, what do you expect after 3 1/2 years of typing?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 05:38 pm
"Even in harassed France the monastic schools were lighting up these Dark Ages.

"Remy of Auxerre opened a public school at Paris in 900. In the tenth century school were established at Auxerre, Corbie, Reims, and Liege.

"At Chartres about 1006, Bishop Fulbert (960-1028) founded a school that became the most renowned in France before Abelard. There the venerabilis Socrates, as his pupils called him, organized the teaching of science, medicine, and classical literature as well as theology, Scripture, and liturgy.

Fulbert was a man of noble devotion, saintly patience, and endless charity. To his school, before the end of the eleventh century, would come such scholars as John of Salisbury, William of Conches, Berengar of Tours, and Gilbert de la Porree. Meanwhile, now at Compiegne, now at Laon, the Palace School established by Charlemagne reached the height of its glory under the encouragement and protection of Charles the Bald.

"To the Palace School, in 845, Charles invited divers Irish and English scholars.

"Among them was one of the most original and audacious minds of the Middle Ages, a man whose existence casts doubt upon the advisability of retaining the phrase 'Dark Ages' even for the ninth century. His name doubly revealed his origin. Johannes Scotus Eriugena -- 'John the Irishman, born in Erin.' We shall call him simply Erigena.

"Though apparently not an ecclesiastic, he wss a man of wide learning, a master of Greek, a lover of Plato and the classics, and something of a wit. A story that has all the earmarks of literary invention tells how Charles the Bald, dining with him, asked him Quid distat inter sottum et Scotum -- 'What distinguishes' (literally, what separates) 'a fool from an Irishman?' -- to which John is said to have answered, 'The table.' Nevertheless Charles was fond of him, attended his lectures, and probably enjoyed his heresies.

"John's book on the Eucharist interpreted the sacrament as symbolical and by implication qustioned the Real Presence of Christ in the consecrated bread or wine. When Gottschalk, a German monk, preached absolute predestinatianism, and therefore denied free will in man, Archbishop Hincmar asked Erigena to write a reply.

"The resultant treatise De civina praedestinatione (c.851) began with a startling exaltation of philosophy. 'In earnestly investigating and attempting to discover the reason of all things, every means of attaining to a pious and perfect doctrine lies in that science and discipline which the Greeks call philosophy' In effect the book denied predestination. The will is free in both God and man. God does not know evil, for if He knew it, He would be the cause of it.

"The answer was more heretical than Gottschalk's and was condemned by two church councils in 855 and 859. Gottschalk was confined in a monastery until his death but the King protected Erigena."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 05:45 pm
More info about BISHOP FULBERT OF CHARTRES.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 05:49 pm
More info about JOHN THE IRISHMAN.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 11, 2005 - 05:54 pm
What is the meaning of GOTTSCHALK?

Robby

MeriJo
July 11, 2005 - 06:32 pm
Here in town there is a Gottschalk's Department Store!

Justin
July 11, 2005 - 10:22 pm
When one attempts to define God using logic,one must resort to dogma to complete the process. Consider John Scotus's argument concerning four specie of Nature. The argument stems from the defined two natures of Christ or God.

Scotus starts out with: There are four species of Nature. 1. Nature which creates and is not created. 2. Nature which is created and creates. 3. Nature which is created and does not create. 4. Nature which neither creates nor is created.

Scotus provides an example for each specie as follows: 1. God 2. Human 3. Human 4. God.

God is by theological definition ( see Nicene and Chalcedon Councils) one who creates and has not been created. He is eternal. Can he, at the same time, be one who neither creates nor has been created. The contention that both 1. and 4. can be represented by God is nonsense. The Medieval Church found this fellow in error (opposed to dogma) when he referred to the Eucharist as symbolic and to double predestination ie; a combination of sin and punishment with grace and eternal happieness, as unacceptable.

Justin
July 11, 2005 - 10:50 pm
We must all remember how startled we were to find so many of the ingredients of Christ in Dionysius- the virgin birth, the reincarnation, etc. This fellow was clearly, a precursor with many of Christ's characteristics. John Scotus argues for the similarity and the Popes refer to him as too Greek and in error for pantheism. Dionisius is a probable source for the Greek influenced St Paul.

Bubble
July 11, 2005 - 11:05 pm
Thanks for the Gottschalk's explanation, it was most enlightning. The origin and evolution of names and surnames can be so fascinating.

I loved that answer of Scotus. It sure shows that he was sure of himself and not in awe of his king.

Thanks Justin for #70, making the argument so clear.

I was trying to find out if Liege's University dates from year 900 when I found this:

"Based on the Dialogue of Civilizations, Khatami is to be rewarded with a Doctorate from the University of Liege

What dialogue? He doesn't even speak for his own people; Iranians. He's a cover up artist for the Islamic Republic, with an atrociously vulgar Human Rights record. " Iranian voice.


http://www.iranianvoice.org/article1011.html

Khatami was interested in Civilizations??? Maybe we should invite him in our group and hear a voice from there?

mabel1015j
July 11, 2005 - 11:38 pm
One of the ways i try to make history relevant to my students is to dicuss where people's names may have come from. I have two men friends named John Scott and when I read "JOhannes Scotus" a light bulb came on in my head! I like both of the contemporary John Scotts and i like Johannes Scotus and his ideas. "Authority sometimes proceeds from reason, but reason never from authority. For all authority that is not approved by true reason seems weak. But true reason, since it rests on its own strength needs no reinforcement by any authority." Idealistic, but i like the concepts. "When we hear that God wishes, loves, chooses, sees, hears....we should think nothing else than that His ineffable essence and power are being expressed by meanings co-natural with us.....Only for a like purpose may we speak of God as masculine or feminine; 'He' (Durant's quotation marks) is neither" It reminded me of the comment made last Sept (I"m trying to read thru your postings so i know what you've already discussed) by "Roseindigo" about the Aramaic term for "our father" being so much more than the English "our father." History and discussions arising from history, certainly do repeat themselves. I guess most of the "mainstream" protestant churches have been trying to take gender out of hymns, scripture, religious writings for about the past 25 years..........Jean

mabel1015j
July 12, 2005 - 12:20 am
One of the textbooks I use gives a nice summary paragraph about the impact of the Viking raids:

The Viking raids and settlements also had important political repercussions. The inability of royal authorities to protect their peoples against these incursions caused local populations to turn instead to the local aristocrats who provided security for them.

In the process, the landed aristocrats not only increased their strength and prestige but also assumed even more of the functions of local governments that had previously belonged to kings; over time these developments led to a new political and military order

(the emergence of the world of lords and vassals; "the rise of the dukes" as Durant calls it)

Jean

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2005 - 02:45 am
"In 824 the Byzantine Emperor Michael the Stammerer had sent to Louis the Pious the Greek manuscript of a book, The Celestial Hierarchy, believed by Christian orthodoxy to have been composed by Dionysius 'the Areopagite.' Louis the Pious turned the manuscript over to the monastery of St. Dennis but nobody there could translate its Greek.

"Erigena, at the King's request, now undertook the task. The translation deeply influenced Erigena and re-established in unofficial Christian theology the Neoplatonic picture of a universe evolving or emanating out of God through different stages or degrees of diminishing perfection and slowly returning through different degrees back into the deity.

"This became the central idea of John's own masterpiece De divisione naturae (867). Here, amid much nonsense, and two centuries before Abelard is a bold subjection of theology and revelation to reason and an attempt to reconcile Christianity with Greek philosophy.

"John accepts the authority of the Bible but since its sense is often obscure, it must be interpreted by reason -- usually by symbolism or allegory. Says Erigena:-'Authority sometimes proceeds from reason but reason never from authority.

"For all authority that is not approved by true reason seems weak. But true reason, since it rests on its own strength,needs no reinforcement by any authority.' 'We should not allege the opinions of the holy Fathers unless it be necessary thereby to strengthen arguments in the eyes of men who, unskillful in reasoning, yield rather to authority than to reason.'

"Here is the Age of Reason moving in the womb of the Age of Faith."

"Authority sometimes proceeds from reason but reason never from authority?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2005 - 02:53 am
Here are the various CELESTIAL HIERARCHIES as listed by Dionysius the Areopagite.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 12, 2005 - 04:51 am

Erigena: "On the Division of Nature"

Bubble
July 12, 2005 - 09:08 am
Terror action here in town. Me and my family are all OK! Bubble

Justin
July 12, 2005 - 10:20 am
Robby" Post 75, third paragraph, comma before Abelard distorts the meaning of the passage. One should be aware that Abelard introduced reason into theological arguments and almost lost his life by roasting as a result. The efforts of Eriugena were similar in a much earlier period. They were a bright spot in a dark era dominated by religious power. There is great similarity between the approach of Eriugena and that of Maimonides. They saw symbolism in Biblical religion rather than fact.

winsum
July 12, 2005 - 11:52 am
Lacking a background in history much of what the durants write means nothing to me and so the only way I can contribute is to take robby's suggestions at the end and relate them to the present. It may cause a disruption because currently the present is more interesting to many of us. I don't need to be here to do that though. best to you all .....Claire

mabel1015j
July 12, 2005 - 12:12 pm
Sorry if i got ahead of you Robert. I do love that quote about authority and you added an important line about "men, unskilled in reasoning, yield rather to authority than to reason. Does using your authority also result from fear? expediency? a way to LOOK like a leader? and haven't people thru history been drawn in by that attitude of their "leaders"? It's interesting to me how his ideas were "lost in the darkness and chaos" of the time......JEAN

MeriJo
July 12, 2005 - 12:50 pm
Bubble:

Good to know that. Thank you! Keep safe!

MeriJo
July 12, 2005 - 12:58 pm
mabel 1015

It's interesting to me how his ideas were "lost in the darkness and chaos" of the time.

Not altogether. I think once an idea or a method is presented or performed it may recede with people who do not stay in the spotlight.

These years were the beginning of the recording and copying of documents found here and there throughout the known world by the many monks in the various monasteries around the West. Even into the British Isles - not much in these lives to be described specifically as they were living reclusive lives. Their contributions lived on beyond them.

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2005 - 05:34 pm
"John defines Nature as 'the general name for all things that are and that are not' -- i.e. all objects, processes, principles, causes, and thoughts.

"He divides Nature into four kinds of being:-

1 - that which creates but is not created -- viz. God;
2 - that which is created and creates == viz. the prime causes, principles, prototypes, Platonic Ideas, Logos, by whose operation the world of particular things is made;
3 - that which is created and does not create -- viz. the said world of particular things and
4 - that which neither creates nor is created -- i.e. God as the final and absorbing end of all things. 'God is everything that truly is, since he makes all things and is made in all things.'

"There was no creation in time for this would imply a change in God. 'When we hear that God made everything we ought to understand nothing other than that God is in all things -- i.e. subsists as the essence of all things' 'God Himself is comprehended by no intellect. Neither is the secret essence of anything created by Him comprehensible.

"We perceive only accidents, not essences' -- phenomena, not noumena, as Kant would say. The sensible qualities of things are not inherent in the things themselves, but ae produced by our forms of perception. 'When we hear that God wishes, loves, chooses, sees, hears, we should think nothing else than that His ineffable essence and powers are being expressed by meanings co-natural with us' (congenial to our nature) 'lest the true and pious Christian be silenced concerning the Creator and dare say nothing of Him for the instruction of simple souls.

"Only for a like purpose may we speak of God as masculine or feminine. 'He' is neither. If we take 'Father' as meaning the creative substance or essence of all things, and 'Son' as the Divine Wisdom according to which all things are made or governed, and 'Spirit' as the life or vitality of creation, we may think of God as a Trinity.

"Heaven and hell are not places but conditions of soul. Hell is the misery of sin, heaven is the happiness of virtue and the ecstasy of the divine vision (the perception of divinity) revealed in all things to the soul that is pure. The Garden of Eden was such a state of soul, not a place on the earth. All things are immortal. Animals too, like men, have souls tht pass back, after death, into the God or creative spirit from whom they emanated.

"All history is a vast outward flow of creation by emanation and an irresistible inward tide that finally draws all things back into God."</I<>

Any one want to chew into this?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 12, 2005 - 05:42 pm
Claire:- You say that you "lack a background in history" and this prevents you from contributing. Durant, however, doesn't only cite names and dates and events. He tells us what these people said and, in effect, asks us if our views are the same or different. For example, in the previous posting, he shares with us the philosophy of John the Irishman and tells us John's definition of Nature,

Do you agree with his definition of Nature?

Robby

winsum
July 12, 2005 - 07:10 pm
I'm an atheist robby. claire

Justin
July 12, 2005 - 09:43 pm
Robby; I have already had a good bite of John Scotus and his definitions. see 71 and 72.

I think it is important to recognize that ideas once introduced have a way of returning again and again. Certainly, the ideas of John Scotus were not lost in the darkness and chaos of the early middle ages. His method and his observations are in the tradition of Hillel, Philo,and Maimonides.Three centuries from Scotus, Abelard will appear and pick up the torch and echo the message of Scotus. One must not see these people as standing alone and independent. Their ideas are not new each time they appear. They are , one and all, trying to find reality in a world gone mad with superstition.

MeriJo
July 12, 2005 - 10:25 pm
robby:

Thank you for your links - They do clarify much of Durant's statements - these re, John, the Irishman, the Bishop Fulbert of Chartres.

Justin
July 12, 2005 - 10:34 pm
So, Claire, you are an atheist. Well, that's your one shot at confession. We'll hear no more of it.

Now let's talk about what you can do to continue participating. I admit, there are a few historians in this discussion and there are some who have been with us since Volume One which means we have a background to work with but that background builds up over time by focusing on the topic.

You have been participating in a volume devoted to faith. We have looked at the Jews,and at Islam. Now we are trying to grasp Christianity because it played such an important role in making us what we are.

You are not only a Jew and an Atheist but you are also an American and to be American is to accept the cultural influences that made us Americans. Those cultural influences include contributions from Calvinists, from Puritans and from Dutch Reformists. Church of England and Scotland as well as Irish Roman Catholics contributed to our American make-up. Jews contributed to the American character as well. We are a melting pot. We are all in this together and it behooves us to discover how it all came about.

What we know as our present civilization happened the way it happened because we evolved. Some of us were left behind in the process like Islam but the rest of us are the result of a cultural evolution.

What we are doing in this discussion is exploring our origins in terms of our current level of knowledge and in terms of the period in which events occurred. You can start by focusing on the event. Did people of that age see it as we see it? Is it an idea that was relevant when it happened?

Get the book and read it. You can't play ball with out a bat and ball. You can't play cards without a full deck. Robby gives us snatches, big snatches I admit, but snatches none the less.If those snatches are not enough to involve you then you need the book. If that doesn't get you then history may not be your topic.

Remember, we are just internalizing what Durant gives us. But if one does not enjoy history, then why do it at this stage in life; better to paint,make pottery, feed the swallows, and grumble about Republicans who are afraid of women.

mabel1015j
July 12, 2005 - 10:54 pm
Merijo - I didn't mean for the emphasis to be on "lost" but on the "darkness and chaos." Durant and other historians seem to be trying to decide if they think the "Dark Ages" were as dark as that title makes them sound, or if there was a whole lot going on that was enlightened. It seems so hard to categorize and label periods of history because each label then needs to be qualified.

Justin - one of the most fascinating things about studying history for me is the way that repetition of ideas/questions keeps coming up. As we live thru our youth we think everything that is happening is new and if we never study history I suppose we keep thinking that until we die. It is settling to me to realize that it has happened before, that people have already discussed this and i can go back and see the options they have already posed. The recycling becomes particularly evident when you study a survey "course" that covers a long period of time like we are doing here........Jean

Jan Sand
July 12, 2005 - 11:41 pm
Although I frequently look through the posts at this venue, I have kept myself from commenting because I see small reward in venting my bile at the totally absurd insanity which comprises most of faith. But one small point should be raised. There is small attention given to the great god Wyswyg who has on rare occasion raised his shining head in history. He peeks around the corner in computing circles but rarely in social context. But He is making progress inspite of the wild strain of madness that is surfacing in American culture. Where is the history of those who choose to look at the world and accept that what you see is what you get?

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 02:49 am
Thank you, Justin, for an excellent description of what we do here and why.

Claire:-It isn't necessary to touch upon religion to give your definition of Nature.

Nice to hear from you again, Jan.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 03:17 am
"There have been worse philosophies than this and in ages of illumination.

"But the Church properly suspected it as reeking with heresy. In 865 Pope Nicholas I demanded of Charles the Bald that he should either send John to Rome for trial or dismiss him from the Palace School 'that he may no longer give poison to those who seek for bread.' We do not know the outcome.

"William of Malmesbury relates that 'Johannes Scotus came to England and our monastery as report says, was pierced with the iron pens of the boys whom he instructed and died from the results. Probably the tale was a school boy's wishful dreamn.

"Philosophers like Gerbert, Abelard and Gilbert de la Porree were secretly influenced by Erigena but for the most part he was forgotten in the chaos and darkness of the age.

"When in the thirteenth century his boook was exhumed from oblivion, it was condemned by the Council of Sens (1225) and Pope Honorius III ordered that all copies should be sent to Rome and there be burned.

"In these disturbed centuries French art marked time.

"Despite Charlemagne's example, the French continued to build their churches on the basilican plan. About 996 William of Volpiano, an Italian monk and architect, became head of the Norman abbey of Fecamp. He brought with him many of the devices of the Lombard and Romanesque style. Apparently it was his pupils who built the great Romanesque abbey church of Jumiege (1045-67).

"In 1041 another Italian, Lanfranc, entered the Norman monastery at Bec and soon made it a vibrant intellectual center. Students flocked to it in such number that new buildings had to be provided. Lanfranc designed them, perhaps with some more expert help.

"Not a stone remains of his structures but the Abbaye aux Hommes at Caen (1077-81) survives as a testimony to the powerful Romanesque style developed in Normandy by Lanfranc and his fellows.

"All over France and Flanders in the eleventh century new churches were built and artists adorned them with murals, mosaics, and statuary.

"Charlemagne had directed that church interiors should be painted for the instruction of the faithful. The palaces at Aachen and Ingelheim were decorated with frescoes. Doubtless many churches followed these examples.

"The last fragments of the Aachen frescoes were destroyed in 1944 but similar murals survive in the church of St. Germain at Auxerre. These differ only in scale from the style and figures in the manuscript illumination of the time.

"At Tours, in the reign of Charles the Bald, a great Bible was written and painted by the monks and presented to the King. It is now No. 1 of the Latin codices in the Bbliotheque Nationale at Paris.

"Still more beautiful is the ' 'Lothaire' Gospel also made at this time by the monks of Tours.

"The monks of Reims, in the same ninth century, produced the famous 'Utrecht' Psalter -- 108 vellum leaves containing the Psalms and the Apostles' Creed, exuberantly illustrated with a veritable menagerie of animals and a museum of tools and occcupation.

"In these lively pictures a lusty realism transforms the once stiff and conventional figures of miniature art."

Whatever one's attitude toward religion, there can be no doubt that the "faithful" had much to do with the creation of wonderful works of art.

And there I was, near Aachen in 1944, not realizing that centuries of art and history were being destroyed before my very eyes. I wonder if those who ordered the bombing ever paused to think about that.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 03:36 am
Here is a photo of the ABBAYE AUX HOMMES AT CAEN, FRANCE along with some comments about the 1944 invasion which was in that area.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 03:54 am
Here is some intriguing information about the UTRECHT PSALTER.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 13, 2005 - 04:11 am
Robby, Hitler like other madmen of his kind have little respect for history except for creating their own version of it.

Here is another link of: L'ABBAYE AUX HOMMES À CAEN

Malryn (Mal)
July 13, 2005 - 05:15 am

L'Abbaye at Caen after it was bombed

Malryn (Mal)
July 13, 2005 - 06:05 am

Photographs of the Church of St. Germain at Auxerre, etc
Click thumbnail to see larger image

MeriJo
July 13, 2005 - 09:13 am
Robby, Eloise and Mal:

Thank you for your links. How sad that the abbey was destroyed! To think that all these structures were constructed by hand and then some destroyed in an instant!

MeriJo
July 13, 2005 - 09:20 am
mabel:

I see. Thank you. Perhaps at the time Durant wrote this the thinking was that the "Dark Ages" were somnolent. Instead, I think, people - clergy and all - just quieted down and continued to progress. It was a time of highwaymen and wandering marauders - best to stay within safe walls.

Scrawler
July 13, 2005 - 09:32 am
May I recommend to you a book, "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett. It combines beautiful pictures of various cathedrals from around the world with a story by Ken Follett. It is set in 12th century England after the death of Henry I. It describes the building of a cathedral in the fictious town of Kingsbridge. I, personally, was amazed at how these master craftsmen could create such a cathedral against the background of the social and political upheavel of the times. It is a very good read and I would recommend it to those that are interested in the 12th century.

winsum
July 13, 2005 - 10:32 am
I have been commenting upon the relationship of the historical influence as we now see it in the present. . . actually in response to Robby's suggested comments.

I'm very into the current political scene and that isn't allowed here for good reason, although there was some interest when the subject of women came up. as for reading what you suggest. It would not only take valuable time away from newspapers and books and painting and thinking it would make me actively sick. . . because that is how I feel about the superstitious effects religion has foisted upon our world and the terrible damage which has resulted and is still resulting becaus of it.

Now I wrote to Robby explaining some of this and claiming that I would refrain from mentioning it in the discussion, since it's not anyone's problem but mine, but you brought it up and lectured me about it so it has to be answered. . . .

And oh yes What is Nature? that's easy NATURE IS. hows that for succint? Claire

winsum
July 13, 2005 - 10:35 am
I read and loved "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett. It was more than history it had witches and a love story and all sorts of fictional goodies. I've read Ken Follett ever since because of it, but nothing else has measured up. . . .Claire

MeriJo
July 13, 2005 - 02:01 pm
Scrawler:

If you visited Europe and took a look around one of those cathedrals, more than likely - usually along the foundation - or on a cornerstone - you may have noticed the letters, "A. M. D. G." (Ad majorem Dei gloriam - "For the greater glory of God") That is the reason the people were able to build those magnificent structures.

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 06:44 pm
Claire:-Regarding your comment about the "superstitious effects religion has foisted upon our world,"please keep in mind that not every participant here considers religion, particularly their own, a superstition. It helps to keep in mind that the beliefs of not only our participants but our many lurkers are respected in this discussion group.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 07:48 pm
The Rise of the Dukes

987-1066

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 07:58 pm
"The France that Hugh Capet ruled (987-996) now stood out as a separate nation, no longer acknowledging the suzerainty of the Holy Roman Empire.

"The unification of western continental Europe achieved by Charlemagne was never restored, except by Napoleon and Hitler.

"But Hugh's France was not our France. Aquitaine and Burgundy were virtually independent duchies and Lorraine would for seven centuries attach itself to Germany.

"It was a France heterogeneous in race and speech.

"Northeastern France was more Flemish than French and had a large German element in its blood.

"Normandy was Norse.

"Brittany was Celtic and aloof, dominatd by refugees from Britain.

"Provence was still in stock and speech a Roman-Gallic 'province.'

"France near the Pyranees was Gothic.

"Catalonia, tecnically under the French monarchy, was Goth-alonia. The Loire devided France into two regions of diverse cultures and tongues.

"The task of the French monarchy was to unify this diversity and make a nation from a dozen peoples.

"The task would take 800 years."

I had no idea that France was so diverse!

Robby

Alliemae
July 13, 2005 - 07:59 pm
Hi Robby, I have completed my subscription. You may find another with my name. I sent a message this morning and although I think it was to the link with your name, I may have also subscribed. Pls let me know. I am very excited to enjoy the content of these works. Thanks! Allie

robert b. iadeluca
July 13, 2005 - 08:08 pm
Hi, Allie! You found us through my email.

You will find it extremely easy to join right in with us. While we have diverse backgrounds of education and training, we consider ourselves nothing more than a bunch of curious individuals, sitting around in the living room here, and exchanging opinions about the words of Durant. If you have his fourth volume, The Age of Faith, you will be able to easily follow us. By the same token, it will still be easy even if you do not have the book. I regularly post Durant's words. In the Heading under the word "France" you will see subtopics in GREEN. These subtopics indicate where we are in the book and where we are headed. They are periodically changed as we move along.

Our ground rules are simple -- we show respect, courtesy, and consideration to each other. Our "slogan" so to speak is "issues not personalities". In a volume titled The Age of Faith, we cannot avoid the topic of religion but we do not proselytize our own doctrine, nor do we comment on the belief of another. We also refrain from giving the names of current political personalities. There are political groups in SN for that.

Read some of the previous posts and then join right in. There is no right or wrong. We just express our point of view.

Robby

winsum
July 13, 2005 - 10:06 pm
respect for the lurkers who do not contribute and the religious people who do is all very well but what about respect also for those of us who do not believe. We have much to contribute from our point of view.. . .Claire

mabel1015j
July 13, 2005 - 10:54 pm
Claire, i agree w/ your #110 comments about "believers" and "non-believers" having much to contribute. Our society has become so up-tight about talking about issues of religion, politics and race/ethnicity that in depth conversations including opposing views have ceased and i think that is unhealthy for the society. We need to hear each others' views and learn why other people have views different from our own. I believe that history discussions are one non-threatening way for us to start to have those kinds of conversations. Surely, no one, regardless of their beliefs can dispute that organized religions have often had disastrous consequences for societies. If you feel that the term to use is superstions than i want to hear that, than i or others can refute it if we choose. It's called having a dialogue, I believe.......

Robby - I rememeber the first time it came to my attention that most of the European nations, as we know them today, are younger than the United STates and how much that surprised me. Certainly the diversity that is "France" will be something that we will want to remember as continue thru this history. It makes for interesting events......jean

Justin
July 13, 2005 - 11:29 pm
Claire: Forgive me if I appeared to be lecturing. That was not my intention but I can see where you might think that was what I was up to.

In your 110 you talk about contributing from your point of view. I see no reason you can not do that. Just say what you wish to say within the rules. It is not a big deal.

You know that I tend to support your position as do some of the other contributors. I, particularly, think that one can not hope to change things unless one is aware of how and why people came to believe the way they do.

People do not do a cost-benefit analysis before adopting a religion. They tend to be raised in the faith,influenced by parents who,in turn were influenced by parents. It's not an easy thing to resist. So long as it does not ask too much of one the practice will persist.It is easy to just go along. Besides, all one's buddies believe and one enjoys seeing one's buddy every Sunday. It's clubby. It makes one comfortable because there are answers provided.

Not many faithful question the dogma or really care enough to question the dogma or it's damaging effect on society. And then the whole thing is reinforced every Sunday by clerics who earn their bread and butter by keeping the whole enchillada alive and well. They prey on the uncritical with a special nomenclature. It is the nomenclature fostered by Charlemagne at Aachen and subsequently at every Church and Cathedral down to this very day.

We can not win or even hope to win because we do not proseltyze. Can you imagine an Atheist's Brigade marching from door to door with a message for the person of the house. One may recognize the damage religion does but one does not organize to spread that gospel. Everyone knows who Pope Benedict is but no knows his opposition. We know Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell but do we know their challengers? Where are the books and the people who make the case for Atheism?

Justin
July 13, 2005 - 11:41 pm
Jean: Interesting about the life span of European countries. France is an example. We think of France as having had continuity since the Franks but in truth, just in the 20th century, France was reborn several times. I think we are in the "fourth Republic" but I may be mistaken and the coutry has reformed again.

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 03:40 am
Here is a map of FLANDERS.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 03:43 am
Here is a map of AQUITAINE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 03:53 am
Here is a map of BURGUNDY.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 03:55 am
Here is a map of NORMANDY.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 03:59 am
Here is a map of BRITTANY.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 04:01 am
Here is a map of PROVENCE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 04:04 am
Here is a map of CATALONIA.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 04:08 am
Putting it all together, here is a map of present-day FRANCE. The task took 800 years.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 14, 2005 - 04:38 am
Scrawler, I just finished Ken Follett's The Pillars of the Earth, 950 pages. I was very interested in Cathedral building and how they drew their plans on the earth floor, they had no paper to draw plans on and build huge monuments like that without years of university training in architecture. It revealed to me what was the daily life of people in the 11th century and what motivated them.

Faith was even stronger then and Christian people fought between themselves for power, territory and gold just like we do today. The wars were much more bloody and destructive than they are now considering their small population. You were extremely lucky to still be alive at 50 because of disease and violence.

France is diverse, but as you travel throughout you see the same old small villages sprinkled all over the map between big cities and have a feeling of space, their regional difference is barely perceptible by an outsider as they speak the same language, with different accents I admit, but their personality is French, as maddening as they are, their country still stirs in me a feeling of appartenance.

I loved looking at those maps Robby, nowhere else could you see a town with a name like "Rogny les 7 Écluses" in Burgundy.

Éloïse

winsum
July 14, 2005 - 06:15 am
which may have been covered before I arrived here, were people living in caves drawing on walls to control the hunt and thinking about the power of lightening and thunder as having a super natural source. Religion may not have been the worship of a single diety but it was important in their lives and they had rituals with which they placated these forces.

Fear is at the root of all religion. There are good reasons to be afraid that are not supernatural. Atheists having to deal with these choose not to be affected by the others. . . .Claire

Malryn (Mal)
July 14, 2005 - 06:36 am
I'll mention here that there have been dialogues about our different beliefs since 2001 when the discussion of Story of Civilization first began.

ROBBY has laid down some guidelines: We speak only once in these postings about our personal beliefs. We do not state that one belief is the "right one" or any better than another. We steer clear of labeling beliefs as superstition or anything else that might seem like an insult to people who read these posts. If it is our opinion, for example, that fear is the basis for religions, we qualify and state that opinion as our own and nobody else's.

It is because we are careful about what we say and how we say it that in over a period of 3 1/2 years this discussion has not deteriorated into the kind of name-calling battle one finds in some of the Politics or Religion discussions in SeniorNet where clashes of personalities and not talk about issues seem to predominate.

I see no lack of respect for agnostics and atheists here. Nor do I see a lack of respect for people who have faith in a particular religion. In order to keep it this way, I believe we should stand in the shoes of somebody else who doesn't believe what we do; consider how we'd react if the barbed comment we're about to put in this message board were directed at us, and think before we post in this unique and very special arena.

Mal

DanielDe
July 14, 2005 - 07:18 am
Hello everyone. I have been away for a few weeks. In the meantime, I participated in a European Congress on Ethics in Strasbourg where I spoke on economics from a biblical perspective. I will be going to Nîmes this week-end for another seminar on a related subject. Nîmes is in the South of France sort of between Montpellier and Marseille.

It is interesting now to be looking into France and its origins. I am looking forward to rejoining this discussion as of next week. Also, I finally received a copy of "The Age of Faith". It does help to get the broader picture.

winsum
July 14, 2005 - 07:23 am
standing in those shoes has also given us a right to explore their comfort level and also as related to the present. Perhaps you don't see what I see in the Durant writings. If strictly held to them we would never discuss anything but religion since this is the AGE OF FAITH. Present problems related to faith and unfaith would never be addressed. . . . Claire

winsum
July 14, 2005 - 07:48 am
is the basis for all kinds of thought, philosophy etc. If we are to utilize the considerations of that in any age we might refer to articles such as this one in the BBC news. Everyone has a right to respect no matter which world they inhabit.

the universe is very odd

MeriJo
July 14, 2005 - 10:25 am
Robby:

Thank you very much for the maps of France.

When you described the diversity of France's origins, I thought of how similar not, perhaps, as varied, the other nations of western Europe were formed, in that all had sustained being overrun and ruled by different nation groups.

Not just the U. S. that is diverse. It looks as though it happened first in Europe.

Sunknow
July 14, 2005 - 12:30 pm
I do not post often, but I throughly enjoy this discussion. There is no limit to what can be learned and discussed regarding "The Age of Faith". Faith may be the main topic, but "faith" is not always about Religion.

A lot of the knowledge shared here is NOT about Religion. It's about History. Many here do not believe in God, but have very strong convictions about whatever it is they do believe. That was also true in the ancient times written about by the Durants.

If I was not interested in this discussion, I would not come here several times a day, and read every post. I am fascinated by what some of you apparently believe, but I also appreciate that most of you are interested in how our Civilization developed. In a way, it explains "us" to ourselves.

I also appreciate that Mal has explained once again the guidelines Robby laid down. Respect? I don't think I have ever encountered a discussion on SNet where participants show each other more respect.

More on topic: I also enjoyed the maps of France and was surprised by their original diversity. I wonder if they came closer to forming one national alliance during WWII, in defense against Hitler? Even then they had their traitors.

Sun

winsum
July 14, 2005 - 02:17 pm
come back and do it some more. . .Claire

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 14, 2005 - 02:38 pm
It is impossible to ignore what role religion had to do in the birth of Democracy and Alexis de Tocqueville was comparing France to America right after the French revolution. He said, and I translate loosely, “I refer to what was France 700 years ago” (Democracy in America was written in 1830, minus 700 years = 1170) I find it split between a small number of families who owned land and governed its inhabitants: The right to govern then comes down from generation to generation with their inheritance; men had but one way of acting one upon the other, force and we discover one sole origin of power, and ownership.” One landowner governed thousands upon thousands of ignorant, obedient serfs.

The root of Democracy.

”But here comes the political power of the clergy which is founded and soon spreads. The clergy opens its ranks to all, to the poor and to the rich, to the commoner and to the lord; equality starts to penetrate through the church at the heart of the government, and he who had to vegetate as serf in eternal slavery, places himself as priest in the midst of noblemen, and often goes to sit above kings.”

This had a leveling effect on society, Tocqueville often mentions that noblemen themselves were the most active levelers by lowering Aristocracy and increasing the common folks learning to help them overcome their perpetual ignorance.

The Bible says “all men are born equal in the eyes of the Lord” except in Feudal times where ”On one side was property, force, refinement, the joys of the intellect, the cult of the arts. On the other side was work, coarseness and ignorance. “ Serfs who could not read or write learned in church by looking at the stories on the stain glass windows of their cathedral and churches.

They listened to the priest because he was a learned man, they sought the church’s stability and order and because even if he was of low birth he could eat with the Lord of the Manor and could advance their cause of raising them above a miserable existence.

I think that this caused the building of several cathedrals in France in Feudal times where the common people could take refuge both from war and famine and it was not just for indoctrination that they attended church, it was for survival that made them pious and obedient to the laws of the church. We cannot know what their lives was trying to survive another day and feel safe from terrorism which was a common occurrence.

Éloïse

mabel1015j
July 14, 2005 - 03:19 pm
Have any of you read Robert Lacey's (Englishman) book THE YEAR 1000?

It's a small book packed full of fun information about what life was like at the turn of the first millenium in England

mabel1015j
July 14, 2005 - 03:31 pm
I haven't read ahead in Durant, so he may discuss this but I tho't these facts related to "The Age of Faith" Lacey talks about the church becoming more important in people's daily lives. "Generally, the church met no resistence as it claimed more control

of everyday life - and it sought, in particular to shape the

marriage arrangements which it had before been content to leave to

local custom. Anglo-Saxon weddings were traditional folk ceremonies

which went back to papan times. A couple might stop at the church

porch for a blessing from the priest, but the essence of the ceremony

was the ritual of secular toasts, vows and speeches enjoyed with the

rest of the village. Such a secular bonding could also be broken in a

secular way; it seems Anglo-Saxons separated and divorced when they

had to without any particular ethical complications. The only concern

of the community was practical - the proper partitioning of property

and the care of the the children. One Anglo-Saxon law code makes

clear that a women could walk out of her marriage on her own

initiative if she cared to and that if she took the children and

cared for them, then she was intitled to one-half the property."....Jean

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 05:05 pm
It is nice to see the return of various participants here and the increase in the number of posts. It is helpful sometimes to look at the Heading and remind ourselves of our common bond. All of us in this discussion group are very simply trying to determine the answers to the three questions above:-"What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Let us continue examining France --

"About the year 1000, through the gradual appropriation of surrounding territory by great landowners, France was divided into seven main principalities ruled by counts or dukes"-Aquitaine, Toulouse, Burgundy, Anjou, Champagne, Flanders, and Normandy.

"These dukes or counts were in nearly all cases the heirs of chieftains or generals to whom estates had been granted, for military or administrtive services, by the Merovingian or Carolingian kings. The king had become dependent upon these magnates for mobilizing troops and protetecting frontier provinces.

"After 888 he no longer legislated for the whole realm, or gathered taxes from it. The dukes and counts passed laws, levied taxes, waged war, judged and punished, as practially sovereign powers on their estates, and merely offered the king a formal homage and limited military service.

"The authority of the king in law, justice, and finance was narrowed to his own royal domain, later called the Ile de France -- the region of the Saone and middle Seine from Orleans to Beauvais and from Chartres to Reims.

"Of all the relatively independent duchies, Normandy grew most rapidly in authority and power.

"Within a century after its cession to the Northmen, it had become -- perhaps through proximity to the sea and its position betwen England and Paris -- the most enterprising and adventurous province in France.

"The Norse were now enthusiastic Christians, had great monasteries and abbey schools, and reproduced with a recklessness that would soon drive Normandy youth to carve new kingdoms out of old states. The progency of the Vikings made strong governors, not too finicky about their morals, nor palsied with scruples, but able to rule with a firm hand a turbulent population of Gauls, Granks, and Norse.

"Robert I (1018-35) was not yet duke of Normandy when in 1026 his eye was caught by Harlette, daughter of a tanner in Falaise. She became his cherished mistress according to an old Danish custom, and soon presented him with a son known to his contemporaries as William the Bastard, to us as William the Conqueror.

"Weighed down by his sins, Robert in 1035 left Normandy on a penitential pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Before going he called his chief barons and prelates to him and said to them:--

'By my faith, I will not leave ye lordless. I have a young bastard who will grow, please God, and of whose good qualities I have grat hope. Take him, I pray you, for lord. That he was not born in wedlock matters little to you. He will be none the less able in battle or to render justice. I make him my heir and I hold him seized, from this present, of the whole duchy of Normandy.'"

How many here knew that William the Conqueror was a bastard? And, as his father indicated, did that make a bit of difference as the years rolled along? The plot continues to thicken.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 05:24 pm
Here is a map of ILE DE FRANCE where, best I can figure out, the King (of all people) was a prisoner of a sort. He could travel but he had no power outside of that region.

Make believe you never saw the name "Disney Land."

Robby

JoanK
July 14, 2005 - 05:28 pm
I am scheduled for hip replacement surgery on July 21. I'll be in and out til then, and gone for awhile. But I'm like the bad penny -- I always come back.

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 06:06 pm
Ask for a laptop while you're in the hospital, Joan. We'll keep you alive and kicking!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 14, 2005 - 06:07 pm
Is this an example of FAITH?

Robby

mabel1015j
July 14, 2005 - 07:09 pm
I have been reading thru the postings since last August and all of you have provided the most interesting information and fascinating discussions.I have probably already said this before, but it's worth repeating.

Robby, the diversity of your links is amazing and very helpful to the discussion.

I noticed that JanSand (in Sept) had asked about the 7-day week and mentioned the way the days were named.

Lacey comments in "The year 1000:" "Rather than sacrifice to Mother Earth, Anglo-Saxons were encouraged

to direct their prayers to the Virgin Mary and having accepted

Sun-day and Moon-day, the church also tolerated Tiw's-day, Wodens-

day, Thors-day, and Frigs-day, the English days of the week that were

named after the Old Norse gods Tiw, the god of war, Woden, Alfred's

father of the gods, Thunor, the god of thunder and Frig, the goddess

of growing things and fertility. Saturns day was another pagan hangover - from the Romans."

I don't know where the French got their words for the days. Anybody know?

MeriJo
July 14, 2005 - 08:08 pm
mabel

The French say leundi (sp.) moon day and mardi "Mars" day. French-speaking posters, help! but the origins are from ancient times as are several others among the romance languages. In Italian it's lunedi, martedi, mercoledi, jovedi, venerdi, sabato, domenica (sp.) But then go to Portugal, and they are primero, secundo, etc. One can almost figure out the origins and meanings.

Justin
July 14, 2005 - 10:16 pm
Claire: Your last post was a relevant comment. In vol one we covered those poor frightened folk who drew in caves to improve the hunt. They functioned between 15,000 and 40,000 years ago. The images are thought to be religious symbols providing aid to the hunt but of course we don't much more than that.

I think you are quite right about fear being a religious motivator. It has probably always been so. The Greeks, Jews,Muslims, and Christians all fear dying in sin and thus spending eternity in hell with it's many and varied punishments. Those followers who believe in predestination are doomed at birth but most faithful think they have free will and can do something about their plight while alive. It is fear of being condemned that keeps them going to church or where ever absolution lies.

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 03:25 am
"Robert died enroute to Jerusalem.

"For a time nobles ruled for his son. Soon William began to issue orders in the first person. A rebellion tried to unseat him but he put it down with dignified ferocity.

"He was a man of craft and courage and farseeing plans, a god to his friends, a devil to his foes. He bore with good humor many quips about his birth and signed himself, now and thenm, Gulielmus Nothus -- William the Bastard. But when he besieged Alencon, and the besieged hung hides over their walls in allusion to his grandfather's trade, he cut off the hands and feet and gouged out the eyes of his prisoners and shot these members from his catapults into the town. Normandy admired his brutality and iron rule and prospered.

"William moderated the exploitation of the peasantry by the nobles and appeased these with fiefs. He dominated and presided over the clergy and appeased them with gifts. He attended devoutly to his religious duties and shamed his father by unprecedented marital fidelity.

"He fell in love with the beautiful Matilda, daughter of Baldwin, Count of Flanders. He was not disconcerted by her two children and her living but separted husband. She sent William away with insults, saying that she 'would rather be a veiled nun than marry a bastard.'

"He persevered, won her, and married her despite the denunciations of the clergy. He deposed Bishop Malger and Abbot Lanfranc for condemning the marriage and burned down part of the abbey of Bec in his rage. Lanfranc persuaded Pope Nicholas II to validate the union. William, in atonement, built at Caen the famous Norman Abbaye aux Hommes.

"By this marriage William allied himself with the Count of Flanders. In 1048 he had already signed an entente with the king of France.

"Having so guarded and garnished his flanks, he proceeded, at the age of thirty-nine, to conquer England."

What do you folks think about this man?

Robby

Bubble
July 15, 2005 - 03:51 am
Capable, ambitious, with a vision. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 04:39 am
Yes, FRANCE AND ENGLAND are still at it.

Robby

Bubble
July 15, 2005 - 05:03 am
French school education exalt the glory and past historical achievement of the country. They don't teach that the present might be different.

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 15, 2005 - 08:05 am
Lundi - Lunar dies (days)

Mardi - Martis dies

Mercredi - Mercurii dies

Jeudi - Jovis dies

Vendredi - Venus dies

Samedi - Sabate dies

Dimanche - Dominicus dies

moxiect
July 15, 2005 - 09:04 am


Never knew France was such a diverse country. It took them 800 years to become one. That is one long time.

Isn't history grand.

MeriJo
July 15, 2005 - 10:52 am
Thank you, Eloise:

Couldn't remember the days in French -

mabel1015j
July 15, 2005 - 01:28 pm
Robby help me understand, what is the compelling need for man to be "better," in whatever way, to another man? Today we see William the Conqueror and Jacques Chirac in different ways, but apparently from some similar motivation having to best some other one, or nation.

Perhaps in the discussion of 3 1/2 volumes of Durant and many stories about "conquerors" you've already covered this, but it's so apparent w/ the reporter's statement of Chirac's "verbal JOUSTING match," and your providing us w/ the quote about William some thousand years ago.

What is the compulsion that for millenia have driven people to prove their superiority?........Jean

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 15, 2005 - 03:18 pm
I watched Jacques Chirac's interview yesterday. In my opinion, he did nothing worse than other Heads of States when they are trying to shore up their popularity in the polls as he did after loosing the referendum That was a hard pill to swallow that I think they were wrong to reject it. When Tony Blair's popularity fell after he sided with the US about Irak, he had to work hard to win the next election. Chirac will have to do the same, but he is 72 and that is not in his favor.

The press just wants to mention something bad about France, they will do everything in their power to start a fight so they can have a field day and will pull out so many silly things to make people believe that Chirac was needling England. He did nothing of the sort.

Chirac was talking to the French about France, unemployment, immigration, research, illegal immigrants, climate, longevity, (of course they have the highest longevity, the French eat better and it's true).

Knowing another language is the secret to really understand both sides of a situation. The English only see one side of the coin, theirs.

Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 04:29 pm
The Rise of the North

566-1066

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 04:40 pm
Alfred and the Danes

577-1016

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 04:59 pm
Looking at the new GREEN quotes in the Heading, we see that we are now entering England.

"After the battle of Deorham (577) the Anglo-Saxon-Jute conquest of England met with only minor resistance. Soon the invaders divided the country.

"The Jutes organized a kingdom in Kent.

"The Angles formed three kingdoms v-- Mercia, Northumberland, and East Anglia.

"The Saxons another three in Wessex, Essex, and Sussex -- i.e. West, East, and South Saxony.

"These seven little kingdoms, and others smaller still, provided the 'history of England' until King Egbert of Wessex, by arms or subtlety, united most of them under his rule (829).

"But even before this new Angle-land was molded by the Saxon king, those Danish invasions had begun which were to rack the island from sea to sea, and threaten its nascent Christianity with a wild and letterless paganism.

"Says the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle:-'In the year 787 came three ships to the West Saxon shores and they slew folk. These were the first ships of Danish men that sought land of Engle folk.'

"In 793 another Danish expedition raided Northumberland, sacked the famous monastery of Lindisfarne, and murdered its monks.

"In 794 the Danes entered the West and pillaged Wearmouth and Jarrow where the learned Bede had labored half a century before.

"In 838 the raids attacked East Anglia and Kent.

"In 839 a pirate fleet of 350 vessels moored in the Thames while their crews pillaged Canterbury and London.

"In 867 Northumberland was conquered by a force of Danes and Swedes. Thousands of 'English' men were slain, monasteries were sacked, libraries were scattered or destroyed. York and its neighborhood, whose school had given Alcuin to Charlemagne, were reduced to destitution and ignorance.

"By 871 most of England north of the Thames was subject to the invaders. In that year a Danish army under Guthrum marched southward to attack Reading, the Wessex capital. Ethelred the king and his young brother Alfred met the Danes at Ashdown and won but in a second engagement at Merton Ethelred was mortally wounded and the English fled."

So many names here familiar to us of the North American continent but of which we know little. I was never aware that the "sex" ending of Wessex, Essex, and Sussex referred to Saxony. I had no idea that the Thames was large enough to moor 350 vessels, even the small sizes of that era. I never realized the power of ancient Denmark, that small kingdom.

So much I don't know!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 05:25 pm
A map of the KENT REGION of England.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 05:32 pm
A map of the NORTHUMBERLAND REGION.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 05:43 pm
Some comments and a map about the KINGDOMS OF ANGLO-SAXON ENGLAND.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 15, 2005 - 05:49 pm
Here is info about KING EGBERT OF WESSEX.

Robby

JoanK
July 15, 2005 - 06:17 pm
It seems my surgery has been postponed. Now I have to catch up.

Justin
July 15, 2005 - 10:38 pm
Some years ago I did some research for the Courtauld Museum in London. Most of the work was conducted in the Christ Church precincts at Canterbury in Kent. The old library at the Cathedral had been in operation since the eighth century and works are stored there dating from that century. The pleasure of working there as a scholar was wonderful. The librarians are super people with a good grasp of the collection.

I was at one point looking for the source of funds for a rennovation done following a fire about 1120 or so. William of Sens was the Master Mason on the job. The librarian who had been assigned to me found a charter signed by Henry ll through which the necessary danegeld was turned over to the Cathedral. She brought this thing in to me, dripping with ribbons and seals, and laid it on my desk. You just can't imagine how thrilled I was to hold that document in my hands.

I stayed at a hotel in Canterbury called the County. It was a quaint place across the street from the Canterbury town library where I also worked. The town is surrounded by ancient walls and entered through ancient gated archways. No cars are allowed in town. The streets are cobblestoned and the shops are unobtrusive and old English in design.

It is easy to imagine oneself in the medieval time period but without the fear of a Viking raid. The cemetery contains the names of people who had been killed in those raids.

Sunknow
July 15, 2005 - 10:50 pm
Justin - what a wonderful experience. One's imagination could take flight under such circumstances. Talk about looking back in time....

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 04:17 am
America is such a young nation. We look at a document and say:-"Wow, look at that! It's two hundred years old!"

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 16, 2005 - 04:19 am
CANTERBURY CATHEDRAL IMAGES

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 04:24 am
They're wonderful, Eloise, and so sharp. Thank you!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 04:46 am
"Alfred mounted the throne of West Saxony at the age of twenty-two (871).

"Asser describes him as then illiteratus, which could mean either illiterate or Latinless. He was apparently epileptic and suffered a seizure at his wedding feast. But he is pictured as a vigorous hunter, handsome and graceful, and surpassing his brothers in wisdom and martial skill.

"A month after his accession he led his little army against the Danes at Wilton and was so badly defeated that to save his throne he had to buy peace from the foe.

"In 878 he won a decisive victory at Ethandun (Edington).

"Half the Danish host crossed the Channel to raid weakened France. The rest, by the Peace of Wedmore, agreed to confine themselves to northeastern England in what came to be called the Danelaw.

"Alfred, says the not quite reliable Asser, led his army into East Anglia 'for the sake of plunder,' conquered the land, and -- perhaps to unify England against the Danes -- made himself king of East Anglia and Mercia as well as of Wessex.

"Then, like a lesser Charlemagne, he turned to the work of restoration and government. He reorganized the army -- built a navy -- established a common law for his three kingdoms -- reformed the administration of justice -- provided legal protection for the poor -- built or rebuilt cities and towns -- and erected 'royal halls and chambers with stone anbd wood' for his growing governmental staff.

"An eighth of his revenue was devoted to relief of the poor -- another eighth to education. At Reading, his capital, he established a palace school and gave abundantly to the educational and religious work of churches and monasteries. He recalled sadly how in his boyhood 'the churches stood filled with treasures and books before they had all been ravaged and burned' by the Danes. Now 'so clean was learning decayed among English folk that very few there were that could understand their rituals in English, or translate aught out of Latin.'

"He sent abroad for scholars -- for Bishop Asser from Wales, for Erigena from France, and for many others -- to come and instruct his people and himself. He mourned that he had had so little time for reading and he now gave himself like a monk to pious and learned studies. He still found reading difficult but 'night and day he commanded men to read to him.'

"Recognizing, almost before any other European, the rising importance of the vernacular tongues, he arranged to have certain basic books rendered into English. He himself laboriously translated Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy, Gregory's Pastoral Care, Orosius' Universal History, and Bede's Ecclesiastical History of England.

"Again like Charlemagne, he gathered the songs of his people, taught them to his children, and joined the minstrels of his court in singing them."

History is showing us that, every now and then, a leader arise who emphasizes the importance of education in strengthening a nation.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 04:59 am
A little bit of the history of READING where Alfred made his capital.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 16, 2005 - 06:28 am

The Life of King Alfred (ascribed to Asser)

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 06:50 am
That story of Alfred linked to us by Mal is fun to read out loud. I don't know why but in doing so, it reminded me of the Song of Hiawatha by Longfellow.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 07:01 am
Here is a MAP OF ENGLAND. Northumberland, it appears, now has a National Park. Reading, King Alfred's capital, does not seem to be a major city these days. Leeds in the north is currently in the news. While I was in England in 1944 (in uniform of course) I was stationed near Bath. At that time I didn't realize that I was near the historical Stonehenge. History is with us all the time and we often ignore it. Warrenton, Virginia, where I live is surrounded by both Revolutionary and Civil War sites and so many people ride by them daily and never stop to visit them.

Robby

POTSHERD
July 16, 2005 - 09:09 am
Robby, if I recall the Romans called England " Albion". Recently read a book by David Hackett Fischer titled " Albion's Seed: four folkways in America. Fischer is an outstanding researcher as well as a talented writer. regards...potsherd

Bubble
July 16, 2005 - 09:19 am
Robby, is your email address operative?

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 10:01 am
This history of the DANISH PEOPLE helps us to understand what kind of people attacked and plundered ancient England.

P.S. I have emailed you, Bubble.

Robby

Bubble
July 16, 2005 - 10:10 am
Why did I ever think that the Danes were a peaceful people? Probably because they live in such a cold environment!

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 12:22 pm
Here is a map of the JUTLAND PENINSULA.

I never realized that Copenhagen was so far away from the rest of Denmark and so close to Sweden.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 12:30 pm
This map of DENMARK shows clearly how part of the Jutland peninsula is German. No wonder the Germans found it so easy to invade and no wonder that the Danes did not put up any resistance.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 12:41 pm
This MAP shows how close Denmark is to England.

Robby

Bubble
July 16, 2005 - 01:22 pm
For me it was a surprise to see Poland so close. Strange how the countries in the now European Union are so familiar and the rest seems to lose importance. I wonder if the other Scandinavian people have different roots than the Danes. The Finns?

Malryn (Mal)
July 16, 2005 - 02:50 pm
Today my daughter Dorian and I had a visit from Dr. Liza Rankow ( Top picture, 3rd from left, front row ), who is visiting her mother and brother here. We've known Lizey since she and my daughter were ten years old. She and Dorian were best friends for several years through grade school and high school when we lived in Westchester County, NY.

From a distance and nearby, I've watched Liza grow up and learn to cope with the physical and psychological problems Crohn's Disease can bring. Today she is the founder and chair of the One Life Institute in California.

While she was here in my apartment Liza told me about the colostomy reversal procedure that is no doubt in my future. Liza had the same surgery that I did and the reversal procedure a few years ago.

For comparison purposes I am posting a link I found on the One Life Institute pages.

Various Sacred and Religious Texts

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 05:10 pm
Here is a map of the EUROPEAN UNION. How sharp is the dividing line between what is now being called the Old Europe vs the New Europe! Those of us who have been following Durant have left what he calls the East (now called the New Europe) and we are now beginning to examine the West (these days called the Old Europe.

I keep wondering what it takes to unify disparate entities. Charlemagne unified Normandy, Burgundy, etc. etc. King Alfred unified East Sussex, West Sussex, and Sussex into England. Thirteen colonies were unified into the United States of America. Now 25 nations are being unified into a Europa.

What is the secret of a successful unification?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 16, 2005 - 05:15 pm
Here is a brief description of the E.U.

One important fact pointed out is that all the nations are democratic.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 16, 2005 - 05:30 pm
Here is another MAP OF THE EUROPEAN UNION where you see tiny Switzerland sitting all alone in the middle of it all. I wonder if it will be able to sustain the pressure it will have from all sides for very long. Daniel?

Robby, the European Union At a Glance link was interesting, I noticed that it was the French Prime Minister Robert Shuman who first talked about it in a speech on May 9, 1950. I didn't know it started so long ago, it took them a long time to finally ratify it, but I is an endeavor that the union members will all benefit from for a long time. I doubt that any of them would ever think of starting a war on another country within the union.

Éloïse

winsum
July 16, 2005 - 05:35 pm
compared to sweden,orway and finland. . . .and made up of islands. would that make it a sea-faring country?

Justin your experience with the Cantebury Cathetral took me there. It was wonderfully presented. Thank you. . . .Claire

winsum
July 16, 2005 - 06:10 pm
I'm always interested in geological history so I took a picture of Denmark and moved it west where the coastlines looked like they might have lined up. . . .or do you think maybe the eastern one is more apt to belong to the mainland. . . or neither. see below.

coastal comparisons

. . .Claire

Traude S
July 16, 2005 - 08:39 pm
ROBBY and ÉlOÏSE, thank you for the links.

ÉlOÏSE, it is ironic, isn't it, that Switzerland, the oldest democracy in Europe, is not a member of the EU, a difficult position to hold. But the Swiss citizens have voted against joining it, more than once.
Swissair went bankrupt in the late nineties and its small national successor, called simply "Swiss", will shortly merge with (or taken over by) Lufthansa; another heavy blow to national pride, the land of Wilhelm Tell.

It took years, decades really, to get the European nations to that point, after lengthy, laborious negotiations about tariffs, taxes, weights, state subsidies for agriculture in a country, etc. etc. That the Union was formed is nothing short of a miracle. However, the European Constitution failed, which is regarded as a major setback.

Incidentally, not every member nation of the EU has accepted the Euro (€) as its official currency; Great Britain still keeps the British £ (though Britain converted to the metric system in the nineteen sixties).

CLAIRE, thank you for your link. The map in your link shows how close Denmark is to Sweden at one particular point, namely between Copenhagen, Denmark's capital, and Malmõ, in Sweden.

Years ago on a visit to Copenhagen and Hamlet's castle, my preschool-age son and I boarded a hydrofoil from Copenhagen to Malmõ (it took about half an hour, if memory serves), where we spent the day. But there is now a more direct link between the two countries, the Øresund Bridge ("Sund" = sound, strait).
Designed in a graceful curve of identical spans, it is stunningly beautiful and, at 16 kilometers long, the world's longest single bridge carrying railway and road traffic. When the last section was put in place on August 14, 1999, the Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark met on the bridge to mark the fact that Denmark and Sweden are linked once more, 7,000 years after the Ice Age, when they were landlocked.

The bridge was opened to traffic in the summer of 2000.

winsum
July 17, 2005 - 12:51 am
YOur pictures of Cantubery Cathedra were great. a powerful statement that building thanks .You and justin with your experiences in europe make me want to go too. I've never been

Jan says he and a friend take afternoon outings from Helsinki across the ?"baltic? to Tinnen to shop. it must be very close.

I wonder if shopping will bring the countries together the way the euro is beginning to. It would help if language weren't so diveres .

bed time . claire

Bubble
July 17, 2005 - 01:54 am
Mal, I was fascinated by the URL on religious text. There was even details on paper making, block letters prints, and more in the Tibetan Book of the dead section.

Robby, in EU they are all democratic, and they each want to be the country with the unsurpassed qualities compared to the others, even little Belgium. When I hear my swiss friends talking, I doubt Switzerland will ever join the EU community.

Bubble
July 17, 2005 - 02:01 am
Claire, it is years and years that the borders are open in Europe and one can drive from country to country unhindered for shopping. When I was in South if France in '93 and '97, we often went for clothes or just meals across the border in Italy.

From Geneva in '99 and 2003 my friends often took me for fun meals in France and of course I did all my shopping for shoes there. We went to Milano for a Scala concert as well.

We never had to present passports or ID at the borders. Often the booth there was deserted. I suppose that now with the terrorism, all this is changing

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 06:30 am
Lots of great posts here about unification. Thank you. Let us now return to Alfred who, in his way (conquering), unified East Anglia, Mercia, and Suxxex.

"In 894 a fresh invasion of Danes reached Kent. The Danes of the Danelaw sent them reinforcements.

"The Welsh-Celtic patriots still unconquered by the Anglo-Saxons -- signed an alliance with the Danes. Alfred's son Edward fell upon the pirate camp and destroyed it and Alfred's new navy dispersed the Danish fleet (899).

"Two years later the King died, having lived only fifty-two years and reigned for twenty-eight. We cannot compare him with a giant like Charlemagne for the area of his enterrise was small but in his moral qualities -- his piety, unassuming rectitude, temperance, patience, courtesy, devotion to his people, anxiety to further education -- he offered to the English nation a model and stimulus tht it gratefully received and soon forgot.

"Voltaire admired him perhaps immoderately:-'I do not think that there ever was in the world a man more worthy of the regard of posterity than Alfred the Great.'

"Toward the end of the tenth century the Scandinavian attack on England was resumed.

"In 991 a force of Norwegian Vikings under Olaf Tryggvesson raided the English coast, plundered Ipswich, and defeated the English at Maldon. Unable to resist further, the English under King Ethelred (978-1013, called the Redeless -- counseless -- because he refused the advice of his nobles) bought off the Danes with successive gifts of 10,000 16,000 14,000 36,000 and 48,000 pounds of silver which were raised by the first general taxes levied in England -- the shameful and ruinous Danegeld,

"Ethelred, seeking foreign aid, negotiated an alliance with Normandy and married Emma, daughter of the Norman Duke Richard I. From tht union would spring much history.

"Believing or pretending that the Danes of England were plotting to kill him and the nation's Witenagemot or parliament, Ethered secretly ordered a general massacre of the Danes everywhere in the island (1002). We do not know how thoroughly the order was carried out. Probably all male Danes of arms-bearing age in Englnd were slaughtered and some women.

"Among these was the sister of King Sweyn of Denmark. Swearing revenge, Sweyn invaded England in 1003 and again in 1013, this time with all his forces. Ethelred's nobles deserted him, he fled to Normandy, and Sweyn was master and king of England.

"When Sweyn died (1014) Ethelred renewed the struggle. The nobles again deserted him and made their peace with Sweyn's son Cnut (1015). Ethelred died in besieged London. His son Edmund 'Ironside' fought bravely but was overwhelmed by Cnut at Assandun (1016).

"Cnut was now accepted by all England as its king and the Danish Conquest was complete."

A thousand years ago the Danes owned England?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 06:35 am
Just who was this KING CNUT OF ENGLAND?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 06:39 am
What is the DANELAW?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 06:48 am
Here is info about KING ETHELRED.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 06:53 am
Learn about KING SWEYN, King of Denmark and later also King of England.

Robby

marni0308
July 17, 2005 - 11:57 am
I have not been participating in this discussion. Someone mentioned you folks were discussing England and I thought I'd take a peek.

Below is an excellent site for easily finding information about each British monarch. Perhaps you have visited it already.

http://www.britannia.com/history/h6f.html

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 12:39 pm
Welcome, Marni! And thank you for the link. By reading a few of the previous postings you can see where we are historically. And if you read the GREEN quotes under the word "England" in the Heading, this will indicate where we are at the moment and where we are going.

Please stay with us and share some of your thoughts regarding that era.

Robby

marni0308
July 17, 2005 - 01:07 pm
Hi, Robby and everyone! I just read (quickly) all 192 comments. What an interesting discussion! I don't have the book.

Robby: I saw that every once in awhile you type out info that looks as though it may come from the Durant book. Is that what it is?

Marni

marni0308
July 17, 2005 - 01:23 pm
I'm backtracking just a bit, but I saw that you commented on Alfred the Great. The brief bio of Alfred in the link I provided has some very interesting info:

"Alfred created a series of fortifications to surround his kingdom and provide needed security from invasion. The Anglo-Saxon word for these forts, "burh", has come down to us in the common place-name suffix, "bury." He also constructed a fleet of ships to augment his other defenses, and in so doing became known as the "Father of the English Navy." [Cool!] The reign of Alfred was known for more than military success. He was a codifier of law, a promoter of education and a suppor|er of the arts. He, himself, was a scholar and translated Latin books into the Anglo-Saxon tongue....After his death, he was buried in his capital city of Winchester, and is the only English monarch in history to carry the title, "the Great."

Justin
July 17, 2005 - 01:40 pm
Danegeld is money collected from taxes to buy protection from Viking raids.The tax was assessed on land and was retained after the threat of raids diminished.

Henry ll paid the Canons of Canterbury in danegeld when he provided support for rebuilding the cathedral choir after a fire in 1174. Henry, you may recall, was the King who caused the murder of Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury. The fire occurred three months after Henry confessed his guilt and was diciplined by the monks. The danegeld contribution to the canons may well have been seen as part retribution for the murder.

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 01:57 pm
Marni:-I don't type out Durant's words "once in a while." I do it twice a day. I can't say that I am typing out his complete volumes but for 3 1/2 years it has been fairly close to that. I recommend that those posting here get the book, "The Age of Faith," but for those who can't obtain it, my copying of his text is sufficient. As a matter of fact, we are about to move onto the next sub-topic in his volume on Page 485 and which is indicated in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 01:58 pm
Anglo-Saxon Civilization

577-1066

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 02:17 pm
"The Conquest by King Cnut was only political.

"Anglo-Saxon institutions, speech, and ways had in six centuries sunk such roots that to this day neither the government nor the character nor the language of the English can be understood without them.

"In the newsless intervals between war and war, crime and crime, there had been a reorganization of tillage and trade, a resurrection of literature, a slow formation of order and law.

"History gives no ground for the delusion that Anglo-Saxon England was a paradise of free peasants living in democratic village communities. The leaders of the Anglo-Saxon hosts appropriated the land. By the seventh century a few families owned two thirds of the soil of England. By the eleventh century most towns were included in the property of a thane (noble), a bishop, or the king.

"During the Danish invasions many peasants exchanged ownership for protection. By 1000 the bulk of them paid rent in produce or labor to some lord.

"There were tun-moots or town meetings and folk-moots or hundred-moots that served as assemblies and courts for a shire. But only landowners were allowed to attend these gatherings.

"After the eighth century they declined in authority and frequency and were largely replaced by the manorial courts of the lords. The government of England lay essentially in the national Witenagemot ('meeting of the wise') -- a relatively small assemblage of thanes, bishops, and the leading ministers of the Crown. Without the consent of this incipient Parliament no English king could be chosen or sustained or add a rood to the personal estates from which he derived his regular revenues. Without it he could not legislate or tax or judge or wage war or make peace.

"The only resource of the monarchy against this aristocrcy lay in an informal alliance of throne and Church. The English state before and after the Norman Conquest depended upon the clergy for public education, social order, national unity, even for political administration. St. Dunstan, Abbot of Glastonbury, became chief counselor under kings Edmund (940-6) and Edred (946-55). He defended the middle and lower classes against the nobles,boldly critisized monachs and princes, was exiled by King Edwig (955-9), was recalled by Edgar (959-75) and secured the crown for Edward the Martyr (975-.

"He built St. Peter's Church at Glastonbury, encouraged education and art, died (988) as Archbishop of Canterbury and was revered as England's greatest saint before Thomas a Becket."

Here we go again -- a division of classes as we have seen in every civilization since Sumeria.

Robby

MeriJo
July 17, 2005 - 02:51 pm
Robby:

Is it expediency in the struggle to survive in peace and continue to progress? Is it a way to collect strength among people and provide safety for them, better living conditions and increase knowledge to name some of the advantages?

These are very interesting events going on. I am enjoying reading all of these excerpts and links.

winsum
July 17, 2005 - 03:41 pm
the executive KING and the "the national Witenagemot ('meeting of the wise') -- a relatively small assemblage of thanes, bishops, and the leading ministers of the Crown" mitigated by the power of the church. Reminds me of our pres. the senate and the religious right today. . . .Claire

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 03:56 pm
Information for those interested in FOLKMOOTS.

Robby

winsum
July 17, 2005 - 04:18 pm
"Parliament of the United Kingdom and Congress of the United States can be said to have evolved from these institutions."

Uh huh. . . Claire

marni0308
July 17, 2005 - 06:28 pm
It also sounds like the Estates General in 18th century France.

marni0308
July 17, 2005 - 06:31 pm
Re: "peasants exchanged ownership for protection..." - When I think of people buying protection, it reminds me of New York gangs or Mafia extortion and store owners having to buy protection. Or it reminds me of the Barbary pirates. But, it seems as though throughout history people had to buy protection one way or another.

JoanK
July 17, 2005 - 06:33 pm
There is a trend now to romanticize Anglo-Saxon England. I suspect it is easier to romanticize a culture one knows very little about.

marni0308
July 17, 2005 - 06:35 pm
Robby: You are doing so much work for this group. 3 1/2 years typing twice a day! Thank you so much!

Marni

robert b. iadeluca
July 17, 2005 - 06:59 pm
Thank you, Marni, but I wouldn't do it if it weren't for the intense interest of all participants here.

Robby

mabel1015j
July 17, 2005 - 09:19 pm
A few years ago we were reading "What Charles Dickens Ate and Jane Auten Knew" The facilitator of the group brought in a map of England and it was like looking at a map of Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Delaware.

I grew up in south central Pa and now live in southern NJ. All the names were familiar:

Pa - York, REading, Carlisle, Horsham, Lancaster, Easton, Warwick, Chester, many more;

NJ - has all the 'sex'counties: Sussex, Essex, Middlesex,plus Suffolk and all the 'amptons, plus Trenton, Newark, Ventnor, Shrewsbury and Dover and Camden, plus many more

Delaware has Dover and Newark and Newcastel and Kent counties. Of course there are many more in NY and NEW England.

mabel1015j
July 17, 2005 - 10:08 pm
I highly recommend "The Year 1000" by Robt Lacey that i mentioned before. It is filled w/ little gems about England at this time.

Of King Ethelred he says,"The reign of King Ethelred took its character from two powerful women. It could even be argued that the women were more powerful than Ethelred himself, who came to the throne as a boy aged only 10 or 12, thanks to the mysterious murder of his half brother.....it has generally been presumed that his death had something to do w/ Ethelred's mother, the dowager queen, Aelfthryth, who thus secured the throne for her own blood line, along w/ power for herself as regent.

The church at the time drew a veil over the ugly incident, since the dead Edward's reign had been marked by notable hostility towards the recently refounded monasteries, in notable contrast to Aelfthryth, who made herself the leading patron of church reform. So in the year 1000, both the King of England and the reforming church hierarchy owed their power to the ambition of the same dynamic woman

In 1002, Ethelred, now in his early 30's, tried to bolster his wavering authority by marrying Emma, the sister of Duke Richard II of Normandy.....Ethelred..had already fathered 6 sons and at leaast 4 dgts by previous liaisons. Only just a teenager, and perhaps as young as 12, Emma spoke no English....

But Emma was to prove a personality in her own right. Before she was 20 her strength of character had made her one of the most powerful figures in Ethelred's circle and after Ethelred's death his Danish successor Canute side-lined his first wife to marry her. Emma's stature provided the authority that the foreign king knew that he needed....Canute was briefly succeeded by Harold Harefoot, his son by his first marriage, but after Harefoot's death, it was Emma's blood that took over, her son by Canute, and then by the son she had borne Ethelred, the half-English, half-Norman Edward the Confessor, whose links w/ his blood relation William of Normandy paved the way for the Anglo-Norman polity. Emma had been married to two kings of Engla-lond, and she was the mother of two more."

Bring on Eleanor of Aquitaine!!!!....Jean

Justin
July 17, 2005 - 11:05 pm
Eleanor is about a century and a half away but coming soon to these pages. We are fortunately,working in period of strong royal women. We'll soon meet, after Emma, gals like Blanche, Eleanor, and Isabella d'Este.

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2005 - 03:38 am
"In this centrifugal government national law developed slowly and the old Germanic law, modified in phrase and circumstance, sufficed.

"Compurgation, wergild, and ordeal survived but trial by combat was unknown. The wergild varied instructively in Anglian law. The fine or composition-money for killing a king was 30,000 thrinsas ($13,000), a bishop, 15,000, a thane or a priest 2,000, a coor or free peasant, 266.

"By Saxon law a man paid one or two shillings for inflicting a wound an inch long, thirty shillings for slicing off an ear. It should be added howver, that a shilling could buy a sheep. By the laws of Ethelbert an adulterer was obliged to pay the husband a fine and buy him another wife.

"Any person who resisted a court order was declared an 'outlaw', his goods were forfeited to the king and anyone might kill hm with impunity.

"In some cases wergild was not admitted, and severe punishments were inflicted: enslavement, flogging castration, amputation -- of hands, feet, upper lip, nose or ear -- and death by hanging, beheading, burning, stoning, drowning, or precipitation into an abyss.

"The economy, like the law, was primitive and far less developed than in Roman Britain. Much work had been done in clearance and drainage but England in the ninth century was still half forest, heath, or fern and wild beasts -- bears, boars, wolves -- still lurked in the woods.

"The ferns were tilled mostly by bondsmen or slaves. Men might fall into slavery through debt or crime, wives and children could be sold into slavery by husbands or fathers in need and all the children of a slave, even if begotten by freemen, were slaves. The owner might kill his slave at will. He might make a female slave pregnant and then sell her.

"The slave could not enter a suit at court. If a stranger slew him, the modest wergild went to his master. If he fled and was caught he might be flogged to death. The main commerce of Bristol was in slaves.

"Nearly all the population was rural, towns were hamlets and cities were towns. London, Exeter, York, Chester, Bristol, Glocester, Oxford, Norwich, Worcester, Winchester was small but grew rapidly after Alfred's time. When Bishop Mellitus came to preach in London in 601 he found only 'a scanty and healthen population' in what had been a metropolis in Roman days.

"In the eighth century the city grew again as a stratetic point commanding the Thames. Under Canute it became the national capital."

As I was reading this, I became more and more aware of the importance of the Constitution of the U.S. True, the 18th century was not the 9th century, but people were still being deprived of individual rights.

I was also surprised to see that "civilization" had gone backwards since the days of Roman Britain.

Your comments, please?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 18, 2005 - 04:13 am
Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet was well documented as I read Durant and I searched Google about Medieval England. HERE.

"William the Conqueror should strictly be known as William I. William is credited with kick-starting England into the phase known as Medieval England; William was the victor at the Battle of Hastings; he introduced modern castle building techniques into Medieval England and by his death in 1087, he had financially tied down many people with the Domesday Book."

I learned that large landowners living in fortified castles owned the villages, with all its inhabitants and he had the power, to raid neighboring earldoms, burning houses, killing and raping at will.

There was too much chaos to allow a civilization to progress because that needs stability and freedom such as has enjoyed democratic America and Europe for the past few centuries. Stability can be shaken with a few suicide bombings but the West has become so powerful that it will take more than that to topple this civilization.

Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2005 - 04:17 am
We might all occasionally read the quote in the Heading which starts with:-"Civilization begins . . ."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2005 - 04:21 am
Just what is COMPURGATION?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2005 - 05:23 am
"compurgation (kòm´per-gâ´shen) noun Law. An ancient form of trial in which an accused person could call 11 people to swear to their belief in his innocence.

"[Late Latin compúrgâtio, compúrgâtion-, complete purification, from Latin compúrgâtus, past participle of compúrgâre, to purify completely : com-, intensive pref.. See com- + púrgâre, to purify.]"



The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.

Malryn (Mal)
July 18, 2005 - 05:29 am

ROBBY:-   I find it hard to believe that you would intentionally put an emoticon in your post #199 when you mentioned Edward the Martyr. It's not like you at all. Surely it was an accident?

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2005 - 05:44 am
A definition of EMOTICON.

Robby

mabel1015j
July 18, 2005 - 06:43 am
Thanks for BOTH definitions!

As to how civilized we are - I tell my students several times a semester "you live in the BEST of times." Of course, when i say it the first time at the beginning of the semester, they argue w/ me and tell me what other times might have been better (usually the 1950's, until we talk about who the '50's was and was not necessarily good for.)

Alliemae
July 18, 2005 - 12:29 pm
so, "Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." And before that, ""I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)" One wonders, except for materially and technologically, have we really come that far?

winsum
July 18, 2005 - 12:53 pm
have we come so far? well some of us have, but we're the quiet peaceful ones and there are still plenty of the OTHERS. . . .Claire

marni0308
July 18, 2005 - 01:31 pm
Guns, Germs, and Steel Part 2 is on PBS tonight at 10:00 pm for anyone who is interested. (Do I have that title right? Words may be out of order!)

Marni

Justin
July 18, 2005 - 03:16 pm
In the eighth and ninth centuries in England the legal status of women remained as it had been for many of the prior centuries. Women and their children continued to be a commodity owned by a husband who could dispose of them in any way he chose.

Traude S
July 18, 2005 - 04:36 pm
With respect, the answer is NO.

Back in the seventies, AAUW, the American Association of University Women (and I was among their number, in fact still am), labored hard for the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment, and lost.
With gallow's humor we then changed the old cliché "You've come a long way, baby" to "We've come a long way, maybe ..."

Despairingly, there IS nothing new under the sun. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose = the more things change the more they stay the same, ad infinitum = forever. The nature of the beast.

Also, why did poor Edward the Martyr, 975-..., get that emoticon? Was his murder four years into his reign special for any reason, in his murderous time?

robert b. iadeluca
July 18, 2005 - 05:04 pm
What reactions do we have to the text of Durant in Post 212?

As indicated previously, I usually post Durant's text twice a day but sometime skip a time, as in now, if participants have not yet had time to speak directly to Durant's words.

Robby

Traude S
July 18, 2005 - 05:27 pm
ROBBY, my reaction is one of profound sadness (and not for the first time). Despite the technological progress, how far has humanity advanced since atavism?

Justin
July 18, 2005 - 07:37 pm
Traude, why do you disagree with 223? We are in the ninth century and the fight for ERA is more than a millennium distant.I too campaigned for ERA as a member of NOW. I'll bet you didn't know men were members of NOW.

Justin
July 18, 2005 - 07:55 pm
I am not surprised that England's economy and law system declined in comparison with the Roman period. Vikings had come, slaughtered, and settled. Picts, Jutes, Angles, and Saxons had come, slaughtered and settled. The eighth and ninth centuries are periods of great turmoil caused largely by multiple invasive forces that settled slowly. They brought a mix of ideas with them that had to coalesce at the same time the Roman Church was growing in power and forcing it's will on all. The Roman period in contrast was a single invasive force with a uniform set of legal practices and economic method.

Traude S
July 18, 2005 - 08:14 pm
JUSTIN, but I do NOT disagree with # 223, far from it. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

marni0308
July 18, 2005 - 09:22 pm
Did anyone see the TV program "Saints and Sinners" tonight on the History Channel? Very interesting. It seems to be a series. I haven't seen it before. It's about the evolving Christian church and its impact. Tonight it was about the growth in power of the papacy and certain reform groups in the 11th thru 14th centuries.

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2005 - 03:26 am
Let us continue with the Anglo-Saxon Civilization.

"Industry usually worked for a local market.

"Weaving and embroidery, however, were more advanced and exported their products to the Continent. Transport was difficult and dangerous. Foreign commerce was slight.

"The use of cattle as a medium of exchange survived until the eithth century but in that century several kings issued a silver coinage of shillings and pounds. In tenth-century England four shillings could buy a cow, six an ox. Wages were commensurately low.

"The poor lived in wooden thatched huts on a vegetarian diet. Wheat bread and meat were for the well-to-do, or a Sunday feast. The rich adorned their rude castles with figured hangings, warmed themselves with furs, made their garments gay with embroidery and brightened their persons with gems.

"Manners and morals were not as prim or refined as in somc later perids of English history.

"We hear much about rudeness, coarseness, brutality, lying, treachery, theft, and other hardy perennials. The buccaneering Normans of 1066, including some bastards, professed to be amazed at the low moral cultural level of their victims.

"The moist climate persuaded the Anglo-Sasons to heavy eating and hard drinking and the 'ale feast' ws their notion -- like ours -- of a convention or a holiday. St. Boniface, with picturesque exaggeration, described the eighth-century English 'both Christian and pagan, as refusing to have legitimate wives and continuing to live in lechery and adultery after the manner of neighing horses and braying asses.'

"In 756 he wrote to King Ethelbald:-'Your contempt for lawful matrimony, were it for chastity's sake, would be laudable but since you wallow in luxury and even in adultery with nuns, it is disgraceful and damnable. We have heard that almost all the nobles of Mercia follow your example, desert their lawful wives and live in guilty intercourse with adulteresses and nuns. Give heed to this -- if the nation of the Angles, despising lawful matrimony, gives free indulgence to adultery, a race ignoble and scorning God must necessarily issue from such unions and will destroy the country by their abandoned mannders.'

"In the earlier centuries of Anglo-saxon rule the husband could divorce his wife at will and remarry.

"The Synod of Hertford (673) denounced the custom and gradually the influence of the Church promoted the nobility of unions. Women were held in high honor though this did not preclude their occasional enslavement. They received little book education but found this no handicap in attracting and influencing men.

"Kings patiently wooed proud women and consulted their wives on public policy. Alfred's daughter, Ethelfled, as regent and queen, gave Mercia for a generation effective and conscientious government. She built cities, planned military campaigns and captured Derby, Leicester and York from the Danes. Says William of Malmesbury:-'From the difficulties experienced in her first labor, she ever afterward refused the embraces of her husband, protesting that it was unbecoming the daughter of a king to give way to a delight which, after a time, produced such unpleasant consequences.'

"It was in this period (c.1040) that there lived in Mecia, as wife of its ruling Earl Leofric, the lady Godgifa, who, as Godiva, played an attractive role in legend and earned a statue in Coventry."

Your comments, please, about this period in England?

Robby

marni0308
July 19, 2005 - 07:03 am
I found it interesting that couples did not always marry. Sounds like it must have been acceptable by many even though St. Boniface decried it. Interesting how moral behavior changes with history. I know when I was a teenager it was SHOCKING for a girl to have a baby out of wedlock. Our choices were: get married when too young; be sent away til the baby was born and put it up for adoption; have an illegal abortion; have the baby and be a pariah. Today in America it seems much more acceptable for couples to have a baby first, then marry afterwards, if at all. Hollywood may be having an impact on the American culture.

I can identify with Alfred's daughter Ethelfled's not wanting another child after a difficult birth and so refusing the embraces of her husband. My son was nearly 11 pounds at birth and I never had another child. (My coccyx was broken.) In Anglo-Saxon times, they didn't have the birth control methods we have available today. My understanding was that when condoms were invented for men, they used them to prevent disease, not to prevent pregnancy. (I know they had condoms at least by the Middle Ages, but I don't know who invented them.) Women probably occasionally used some sort of method, but it apparently either didn't work or wasn't used often when you look at the way many wives were constantly pregnant, with many women dying in childbirth throughout history.

Scrawler
July 19, 2005 - 09:24 am
"Prior to the sixteenth century, did no physician think of simply placing a sheath over the penis during intercourse?

It must be stated that sheaths in earlier times were thick. They interfered with a man's pleasure. And most doctors were men. Thus, sheaths were seldom recommended or used. Penile sheaths did exist. There is evidence that the Romans, and possibly the Egyptians, used oiled animal bladders and lengths of intestine as sheaths. However, their purpose was not primarily to prevent the woman from becoming pregnant but to protect the man against catching venereal disease. When it came to birth control, men preferred to let women take the lead.

Italian anaomist Gabriel Fallopius, the sixteenth-century physician who first described the slender two tubes that carry ova from the ovaries to the uterus, is generally regarded as the "father of the condom" - an anachronistic title since Dr. Condom would not make his contribution to the device for another hundred years.

In the mid-1500s, Fallopius, a professor of anatomy at the University of Padua, designed a medicated linen sheath that fit over the glans, or tip of the penis, and was secured by the foreskin. It represents the first clearly documented prophylactic for the male member. Soon sheaths appered for circumcised men. They were a standard eight inches long and tied securely at the base with a pink ribbon, presumably to appeal to the female. Fallopius's invention was tested on over one thousand men, "with complete success," as he doctor himself reported. The euphemism of the day labeled them "overcoats."

How did Fallopius's overcoats get to be named condoms?

Legend has it that the word derives from the earl of Condom, the knighted personal physician to England's King Charles II in the mid-1600s. Charles' pleasure-loving nature was notorious. He had countless mistresses, including the most renowned actress of the period, Nell Gwyn, and though he sired no legitimate heirs, he produced innumerable bastards throughout the realm.

Dr. Condom was requested to produce, not a foolproof method of contraception, but a means of protecting the king from syphilis. His solution was a sheath of stretched and oiled intestine of sheep. (It is not known if he was aware of Fallopius's invention of a hundred years earlier. It is part of condom lore that throughout the doctor's life, he discouraged the use of his name to describe the invention.)" "Panati's Extraordinary Origins of Everyday Things"

Bubble
July 19, 2005 - 10:02 am
Condom is the name of a town in France and it has a permanent exhibition in the "Musee du Preservatif".<

"Condom - a name which naturally provides much amusement to English speakers (only slightly less to Spanish ones...), but has no particular connotation that I know of in French, being apparently an abbreviation of the latin Condominium " said someone in a blog...

winsum
July 19, 2005 - 11:32 am
such good stuff here just glanced at it. Later, Claire

MeriJo
July 19, 2005 - 11:44 am
One thing, I will say, is that some of these excerpts of Durant's produce some interesting tangential information.

These early times in England for the serfs, especially, were truly periods wherein the fittest survived. Young women lost their beauty very early as there was no dental care and many were toothless by the time they were twenty-five.

Hygiene was unknown and the streets in front of those rows of thatched huts were often muddy because of the wet weather of England and water ran in the streets. It was very unclean and may have been the biggest factor in causing the frequent epidemics of serious disease such as typhoid and typhus. It was a challenge, and probably disheartening. However, _

OUTPOST OF AN EMPIRE AD 43 - 410

The Roman Occupation saw the introduction of many alien features into local life and landscape: magnificent military roads and forts; towns; villas with mosaic floors, central heating and painted plaster walls; money; written records and laws; mass-produced pottery from great factories in Britain and abroad; luxuries and other goods from across the Empire; new religious practices, including Christianity. Whilst the Boudiccan revolt of AD 61 left the Roman capital at Colchester in flames, its brutal defeat was eventually followed by a peaceful provincial life for three centuries. With manufactured goods now available in all manner of materials, enough has survived to help us understand everyday life in some detail.

more

winsum
July 19, 2005 - 11:46 am
Traude some fifty years ago before such things were given due I managed to offend a gathering of elementary school principals and their wives by openly declaring my equality with men. even my husband who knew it was true refused to defend me. None of these people would attack a person now for this strange belief. . . . Claire

marni0308
July 19, 2005 - 12:01 pm
Scrawler: That was interesting info about condoms!! I read an article about Sir Robert Dudley, Elizabeth I's true love. He was quite the lady's man. During an excavation of his house, a condom was found.

I was talking with a woman working at Mystic Seaport, one of the people who dress up in 17th century clothes, display cooking, and answer questions. She said that childbirth was the biggest cause of death in women in that period. The second biggest cause of death in women then was death by BURNING from catching on fire while cooking!!! (That one surprised me.)

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2005 - 05:12 pm
MeriJo:-You say that "some of these excerpts of Durant's produce some interesting tangential information." What do you think has kept this discussion group going for 3 1/2 years?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2005 - 05:28 pm
"Education, like everything else, suffered from the Anglo-Saxon Conquest and slowly recoverd after the conversion of the conquerors.

"Benedict Biscop opened a monastic schoool at Wearmouth about 660. Bede was one of its graduates. Archbishop Egbert established at York (735) a cathedral school and library that became the chief seat of secondary education in England.

"These and other schools made England in the second half of the eighth century the leader of European learning north of the Alps.

"The fine devotion of the monastic educators shines out in the greatest scholar of his time, the Venerable Bede (673-735).

"He summed up his life with modest brevity:-'Bede, the servant of Christ, a priest of the monastery of the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, which is at Wearmouth and Jarrow. Who, being born in the territory of that monastery, was delivered up by my kinsfolk, when I was seven years of age, to be brought up by the most reverend abbot Benedict (Biscop) and from that time spending all the days of my life in the same monastery, I have applied all my diligence to the study of the Scriptures. And observing the regular discipline, and keeping the daily service of singing in the church, I have taken delight always either to learn, or to teach, or to write. In the nineteenth year of my life I was made deacon. In my thirtieth I became a priest and from that time until the fifty-ninth year of my age I have employed myself upon Holy Scripture and in these following works...'

"--all in Latin. They included Biblical commentaries, homilies, a chronology of world history, treatises on grammar, mathematics, science, and theology, and above all, the Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, or Church History of the English Nation (731).

"Unlike most monastic historiss, this is no dry chronicle. Perhaps, towards the end, it is too heavy with miracles and always it is innocently credulous, as befitted a mind immured from the age of seven. Nevertheless it is clear and captivating marrative, rising now and then to a simple eloquence, as in the description of the Anglo-saxon Conquest.

"Bede had an intellectual conscience. He took great pains with chronology and is generally accurate. He specified his sources, sought firsthand evidence and quoted pertinent and available documents."

Any comments about education in the Anglo-Saxon Civilization?

Robby

MeriJo
July 19, 2005 - 07:33 pm
Robby:Your # 239 - They do make for interesting additional input, and can see why!

MeriJo
July 19, 2005 - 07:49 pm
Re: Anglo-Saxon education:

It gives the lie to those who say people were ignorant in those days. There are listed here many sources of learning and certainly many who learned from them.

No doubt, that the lessons could only include what had been determined up to then, and certainly, there would have been much error.

Yet, upon this error, new learning would come along to rectify that error and human progress would continue. It is a marvel, I think, to see how the mind would be stimulated by these lessons and be directed in different directions. With the ability to record, these directions would take on a permanence and prepare a foundation for future generations of English folks and others.

I visited Durham Cathedral in 1984, and I remember now that Venerable Bede is buried there. That is quite a cathedral. Also, there is an historical plaque on the wall in the Cathedral showing the American flag. It seems that George Washington's ancestors were from Durham.

http://www.britannia.com/bios/bede.html

3kings
July 19, 2005 - 09:16 pm
"Bede had an intellectual conscience. He took great pains with chronology and is generally accurate. ( My underlining ) He specified his sources, sought firsthand evidence and quoted pertinent and available documents."

How could anyone at this distance know, when Bede disagreed with other record keepers, who was the more accurate ?

I was interested in Durant's description of the lives of the Anglo-Saxon common folk. We have read such descriptions all through the S. of C. we have read so far.

I think it very likely that such remarks could be made of any other group at this and earlier times, whether living in Britain, Europe, India or the Far East. Everyday life I think, would be much the same for commoners where ever they dwelt. Pretty brutal, wasn't it ? ++ Trevor

Justin
July 19, 2005 - 09:29 pm
MeriJo: It's a long way from a couple of Cathedral schools to an educated population.

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2005 - 10:49 pm
Here is a photo of DURHAM CATHEDRAL.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2005 - 10:57 pm
ANOTHER PHOTO of Durham Cathedral with text about Washington.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 19, 2005 - 11:03 pm
Here is a photo of the WASHINGTON PLAQUE and other photos. Allow time for downloading.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 20, 2005 - 01:37 am
Justin, I also think that education was a luxury that very few of the common folk had access to and even those were monks in monasteries. I doubt that the peasantry had access to education which was usually dispensed by the church. Children must have been used for farming the land. Compared with today where every child goes to school and doesn't have to contribute to the family income until they become adults, ordinary life for the common folk in Medieval time was spent trying to stay alive another day.

"--all in Latin." and not in English?

Robby, your link #246 is a great photo among several excellent others that I have put in my favorites for later use. They are so clear and sharp of European monuments.

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2005 - 04:04 am
What are our young people saying about EDUCATION?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 20, 2005 - 05:30 am

Picture: Venerable Bede

West Nave, Durham Cathedral

St. Bede's Tomb

Interactive tour of Durham Cathedral. Click thumbnail pictures on each page to see larger picture

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 20, 2005 - 05:31 am
Up to high school graduation school was a place to make friends, passing didn't require much effort. In private schools with options all the curriculum is taught in the morning and the option in the afternoon and they only enroll the best students. Many students have the brains for more demanding courses but not that much is asked of them to pass.

Teachers have unions to protect their jobs, that is very bad for teaching quality. Half the teachers only work for their paycheck and the parents need to supplement the missing elements if they can. Private school teachers are not unionized and that is why parents who can afford it want their children in the private school system.

MeriJo
July 20, 2005 - 10:06 am
Robby and Mal:

Thank you so much for the pictures and photos. They are so good to see.

Bubble
July 20, 2005 - 10:30 am
Those complaints about the education system are the same I hear from youth around me. They feel that it does not prepare them for real life, they feel that what is required is rote learning to get higher marks which in turn would prove the competence of the teachers. Teachers are not motivated and do not bother to motivate the interest of the class. All that is a pity, so different of my own experience over 40 years ago.

MeriJo
July 20, 2005 - 02:16 pm
Bubble:

I don't know what to make of the students' complaints. I quit teaching over thirty years ago in the public schools and the kids and parents were complaining in the same way. I think what finally comes home to students is that learning for quite a large part is work and time. One must read and study and prepare papers and do research - just, plain old work - maybe even a form of drudgery -lifted in part now and then by a visit from a professional artist, for example, to the class, or by the field trip to hear a concert by the class.

I recall hearing teachers at in-service meetings saying that the kids wanted "entertainment"! That may work well in the primary grades for a while, but, eventually, the kids need to get that knowledge into their brain and there is only one way - work.

Malryn (Mal)
July 20, 2005 - 02:23 pm

I don't know what these kids want, and don't trust what you're telling me they say. I've been very close to the school system here in Chapel Hill, NC since my grandson was five years old; he's now 20 and at the university. What he and all of his friends found out is not different from what my peers and I found out years and years ago: You get from your education what you're willing to put in.

Mal

JoanK
July 20, 2005 - 03:45 pm
A little behind, but wanted to comment on this:

"The use of cattle as a medium of exchange survived until the eighth century".

That tells a lot about the state of commerce and exchange. Obviously, you aren't doing a lot of long distance trading if you have to haul cows around for money. Coins were introduced a millennia earlier in many of the societies we studied.

One interesting note: the Incas apparently used chocolate as a medium of exchange. They would make strings of cocoa beads. Now there's an economy I can really relate to.

3kings
July 20, 2005 - 06:07 pm
MAl your #255 perplexes me. I quote you :-"I don't know what these kids want, and don't trust what you're telling me they say."

Why don't you trust what others here tell you what the kids are saying ? I don't think they would be trying to deceive you, in any way.

I must say I admire your Grandson for discovering " What he and all of his friends found out is not different from what my peers and I found out years and years ago: You get from your education what you're willing to put in."

There are many I know, both parents and students, who have never grasped that simple truth. Would that it were otherwise, eh? ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
July 20, 2005 - 06:12 pm
"Bede notes that five languages were spoken in his England:-English, British (Celtic), Irish, Pict (Scotch), and Latin.

"English was the language of the Angles, but it differed little from Saxon and was intelligible to Franks, Norwegians and Danes. These five peoples spoke varieties of German and Enlgish grew out of German speech.

"As early as the seventh century there was a considerable Anglo-Saxon literature. We must judge it largely from fragments for most of it perished when Christianity brought in the Latin script (replacing the runic characters of Anglo-Saxon writing) -- when the Danish Conquest destroyed so many libraries and when the Norman Conquest almost swamped the English languge with French words. Moreover, many of these Anglo-Saxon poems were pagan and had been transmitted orally through generations of 'gleemen' or minstrels who were a bit loose in life and speech and whom monks and priests were forbidden to hear.

"It was probably an eighth-century monk, however, who wrote one of the oldest extant Anglo-Saxon fragments -- a verse paraphrase of Genesis, not quite as inspired as the original. Interpolated into the poem is the translation of a German narrative of the Fall. Here the verse comes to life, largely because Satan is represented as a defiant and passionate rebel.

"Perhaps Milton found here a hint for his Lucifer. Some of the Anglo-Saxon poems are elegies. So 'The Wanderer' tells of happy days gone by in the baronial hall. Now the lord is dead, 'all this firm-set earth becomes empty' and 'sorrow's crown of sorrow is remembering happier things.'

"Not even Dante improves the expression of this ideal."

Your comment about Anglo-Saxon literature?

Robby

Justin
July 20, 2005 - 06:12 pm
Durham Cathedral is certainly worth a comment. Durham is a fine example of Norman or Romanesque style.It was completed in 1134.Durham like many other cathedrals was repaired and added to in the styles of subsequent periods but what one sees at Durham ,in the main, is a Romanesque style.

Robby provided an exterior view and an interior one of the nave, showing the vaulting, the decorated pillars, arcades, and triforium. There is enough visible in these images to let us see what Romanesque style is all about.

The Roman monuments in England were numerous in the tenth and eleventh centuries. Many of these monuments were in decay but the stones were dressed and usable so Britons used the monuments as one would a quarry. Cathedrals like Durham rose on the carcass of these old Roman buildings.

The builders used the same rounded arch, heavy, ponderous columns, recessed clerestory windows, and the groin vault, as used by the Romans. They made a change in the groin vault by adding ribs and squaring the vault segments. They changed the columns by incising them with decorative bands and stripes to relieve the impression of ponderousness. You can see these elements in the interior picture Robby gave us. .

Justin
July 20, 2005 - 06:52 pm
The poem called Beowulf was composed in Anglo Saxon or Old English between the seventh and tenth centuries. It concerns the deeds of a Scandinavian Prince. The poem contains pagan as well as Christian elements. Scholars think the Christian elements were added by monks who transcribed the poem from it's original parchment.

The Sutton Hoo discovery of a Viking ship burial on English soil complements the material presented in Beowulf nicely and we might be able to turn up images of the recovery on the internet.

MeriJo
July 20, 2005 - 08:12 pm
Justin: Your #244

MeriJo: It's a long way from a couple of Cathedral schools to an educated population.

Exactly, Justin.

My philosophy developed regarding education when I came to this Central Valley after growing up and attending school in a city (LA) and surrounding area. My first teaching assignment was in a converted Army barracks building with a class of little migrant children. We could see the grand Sierra Nevada, but most of the little ones had never been there. Their experiences were very limited.

The growth that became visible in that year from just snippets of knowledge each day being absorbed by the class was so impressive, that it has led me to see how AEsop's Fable of "The Cat and the Milk," reflected the way of learning - "Little by little does the trick."

MeriJo
July 20, 2005 - 08:44 pm
Correction: "The Crow and The Pitcher" There must be two, because I remember one with a cat and a pitcher of milk.

Bubble
July 20, 2005 - 11:42 pm
Sorry Mal, #255, I don't quite agree with you. Students act as you say when they are giving the right incentives by teachers. Just Like here: Robby is so good a leader that we all stick assiduously to SoC and are willing to search and add to our bank of info. I would never have done that with a dull history teacher, were you to give me 10 free Unif degrees at the end of the year.

Many students say: if the teachers don't care and look only at their watch during lessons, and at their pay check when out of class, why should we worry?

Do you know that for the last 10y or more we had teachers strikes (mostly about pay) so that the kids never started normally, even in primary 1st grade. so that it really mess with all enthusiasm for that school experience. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2005 - 03:45 am
"The longest and noblest of the Anglo-Saxon poems, Beowulf, was composed, presumably in England, in the seventh and eighth century and is preserved in a British Museum manuscript dating back to 1000.

"In 3183 lines are apparently the entire work. The verse is rhymeless but alliterative antistrophic rhyuthm in a West Saxon dialect quite unintelligible to us today. The story seems childish -- Beowulf, prince of the Geats (Goths?) in southern Sweden, crosses the sea to free the Danish King Hrothgar from the dragon Grendel. He overcomes Gendel and even Grendel's mother, sails back to Geatland and reigns justly for fifty years.

"A third dragon, a firedrake, now appears and ravages the land of the Geats. Beowulf attacks it and is seriously wounded. His comrade Wiglaf comes to his aid and together they kill the beast. Beowulf dies of his wound and is burned on a funeral pyre.

"The tale is not so naive as this sounds.

"The dragon of medieval literature represents the wild beasts that lurked in the woods about the towers of Europe.

"The terrified imagination of the people might be forgiven for conceiving them fantastically and it gratefully wove legend about the men who conquered such animals and made the hamlets safe.

"Certain passages of the poem are incongruously Christian as if some kindly monkish editor had sought to preserve a heathen masterpiece by inserting here and there a pious line.

"But the tone and incidents are purely pagan. If was life and love and battle on the earth that interested these 'fair women and brave men' not some strifeless paradise beyond the grave.

"Beowulf is probably the oldest extant poem in the literature of Britain but Caedmon's (d.680) is the oldest name.

"We know him only through a pretty passge in Bede. In the monastery of Whitby, says the Ecclesiastical History, was a simple brother who found it so hard to sing that whenever his turn came to chant he fled to some hiding place. One night as he lay asleep in his stable lair, it seemed to him that an angel appeared and said 'Caedman, sing me something. The monk protested that he could not. The angel commanded. Caedman tried and was startled at his success. In the morning he recalled the song and sang it.

"Thereafter he lisped in numbers and turned Genesis, Exodus and the Gospels into verse 'put together' says Bede, 'with very great sweetness and pricking of the hearts.' Nothing remains of them except a few lines translated into Latin by Bede. A year later Cynewulf (b.c,750), minstrel at a Northumbrian court, tried to realize the story by versifying diverse religious narratives -- 'Christ,' 'Andreas.' 'Juliana.' But these works, contemporary with Beowulf, are by comparison dead with rhetoric and artifice."

We read Beowulf in high school but at that age I was not in the least interested in that "gibberish" and my English teacher didn't explain anything about England in Anglo-Saxon times as Durant does here.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2005 - 03:52 am
Here is an excellent link to BEOWULF.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2005 - 04:17 am
Can reading Beowulf and other works of literature prevent THIS?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 21, 2005 - 05:08 am

TREVOR, I don't trust what the kids are saying to people who repeat it here.

BUBBLE, if kids want harder courses they're available in nearly every school system in this country. My grandson and some of his friends were in advanced classes in elementary school, so was my Florida grandson. Hil was taking college level courses in middle school and high school here in NC. If the student does the work and qualifies, such courses are available to every person in public school.

I've heard that same song and dance about teachers since I was a kid. I remember my school principal uncle, my high school English teacher future father-in-law and other teachers in my family complaining about what was being said about them and their attitude toward teaching by students and others way back in the early 40's.

Mal

Bubble
July 21, 2005 - 07:18 am


Wed Jul 20, 9:02 AM ET

" LONDON (Reuters) - The word "fail" should be banned from use in British classrooms and replaced with the phrase "deferred success" to avoid demoralizing pupils, a group of teachers has proposed.

Members of the Professional Association of Teachers (PAT) argue that telling pupils they have failed can put them off learning for life.

A spokesman for the group said it wanted to avoid labeling children. "We recognize that children do not necessarily achieve success first time," he said.

"But I recognize that we can't just strike a word from the dictionary," he said.

The PAT said it would debate the proposal at a conference next week."


Do you agree?

MeriJo
July 21, 2005 - 07:39 am
Robby:

The reasons that high school students drop out of school are quite varied.

Overall, I would say that it is the attitude in the family, the attitude of the student and perhaps the environment of the school itself - this last is a subtle influence and not always taken into consideration.

Here in the States, there seems to have developed a mind-set towards teachers and schools somewhat in the nature of these being a threat or a punishment.("You better be good" someone says to Johnny entering school, "or you'll be sent to the principal's office"). These home-grown attitudes spill over into media that the families and children either read or view, and develop ideas that seep into the general concept of education. In my opinion the whole culture must change.

It's hard work to teach if one does it well, but I think that the ideas of recent decades have affected both children and teachers. School needs to hold a more elevated place in our society. It needs to demonstrate the seriousness that one needs to bring to managing life. In recent years, indifference and an over-emphasis on being casual and having fun has displaced the true purpose of learning.

Can't help getting on the soap box about this - just my opinion here.

marni0308
July 21, 2005 - 08:50 am
Here's another site to read Beowulf online, either in Old English or in Modern English. Interesting information about the manuscript.

http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/

marni0308
July 21, 2005 - 08:59 am
Something strange just happened. My window for Seniornet just more narrow. Other screens are perfectly normal. Is anyone else having this trouble?

Scrawler
July 21, 2005 - 10:52 am
I think before one can be educated they have to want to be educated. When I do my research its because I search for knowlege and over the last ten years I've probably gotten the equivalent of a college degree in "history" (of course). Just being with all of you adds to my education. But I think the young people today are so bombarded by everything from TV to video games etc that they have lost the "will" to learn. It's not easy at times. I'm almost bald trying to make heads or tails of journals from the 1800s. (What - these people never heard of punctuation and don't start me on dashes!) But the bottom line is that I thirst for knowlege and I'll never stop as long as there is breath in my lungs. And I think this is what is sadly lacking in today's world. The thirst for knowlege in our young people for some is gone and no educational SYSTEM can replace the desire to learn.

winsum
July 21, 2005 - 10:52 am
teachers do have unions but what protects their jobs is achieving TENURE. something they earn. at least here in southern CA. I was married to one for twenty seven years and he was very good at getting kids excited about MATH. . . and having a tin ear he turned over music to the kids with instrumental xylophone or bells type leading. the art was taught in outdoor trips and in one case with the parents helping he took the class on a train trip seventy miles to San Diego zoo. We were often invited to homes for dinner and we went as a family. My experience with the teacher I knew best was a good one. He wasn't as good a principal but the money was much better. tenure is about money and security as well. . . laire

moxiect
July 21, 2005 - 11:48 am


In my search for knowledge I have often returned to school. One fascinating thing happened. I had an very intelligent Math Teacher was was able to connect with all his students on a level that everyone who took his class was able to comprehend the concepts.

On another note, I had to have a conference with one of my children's teacher who was dumbfounded when I asked "What are you doing to hold my child's interest in the subjects you are teaching?"

I'm still learning!

Justin
July 21, 2005 - 01:08 pm
Reading Beowulf will not end the drop out rate but if students are well motivated the rate will decline.

If parents, teachers,and counselors work together as a team they can encourage a student to learn by focusing on the benefits of learning as well as on the curriculum material.One must also use the " pat on the back" often and freely. It is a wonderful tool for pushing a student toward successful performance. No child should be discouraged by any school activity.

In elementary school it would be well to drop the pass-fail concept. The goal of the elementary school should not be one of separating motivated learners from failures. Rather the goal should be one of motivating all students to learn. Teachers must measure progress but it is not necesary to share grades with students except privately and then only in a way that is designd to encourage the student.

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2005 - 03:53 pm
Marni:-Have you tried clicking on to "Fit Window" in the far upper right corner?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2005 - 04:31 pm
"Literary prose comes later than poetry in all literatures, as intellect matures long after fancy blooms.

"Men talk prose for centuries 'without knowing it' before they have leisure or vanity to mold it into art.

"Alfred is the first clear figure in the prose literature of England. His translations and prefaces were eloquent through simple sincerity and it was he who, by dint of editing and adding, transformed the 'Bishop's roll,' kept by the clerks of Winchester cathedral, into the most vigorous and vivid sections of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle -- the first substantial work of English prose. His teacher Asser may have written most of the life of Alfred. Perhaps it is a later compilation (c.974).

"In any event it is an early instance of the readiness with which English men used English instead of Latin for works of history or theology while the Continent still blushed to write such dignities in the 'vulgar' speech.

"Even among poetry and war men and women found time and spirit to give form to significance and beauty to things of use.

"Says Asser:-'Alfred established a school of art at Athelney, brought to it from all quarters monks skilled in arts and crafts, and 'continued during his frequent wars to teach his workers in gold and his artificers of all kinds.'

"Dunsten, not content with being both a statesman and a saint, worked cleverly in metal and gold, was a good musician, and built a pipe organ for his cathedral at Glastonbury. Art work in wood, metal, and cloisonne enamel, was carried on. Gem-cutters joined with carvers to make the jeweled and sculptured crosses of Ruthwell and Bewcastle (c.700).

"A famous equestrian statue of King Cadwallo (d.677) was cast in brass near Ludgate. Women made coverlets and tapestries and embroideries 'of a most delicate thread.' The monks of Winchester illuminated with radiant color a tenth-century benedictional.

"Winchester itself and York built stone cathedrals as early as 635. Benedict Biscop brought the Lombard style to England from the church that he built at Wearmouth in 674. Canterbury rebuilt in 950 the cathedral that had survived from Roman times. We know from Bede that Benedict Biscop's church was adorned with paintings made in Italy 'so that all who entered, even if ignorant of letters, which ever way they turned, should either contemplate the ever-lovely aspect of Christ and His saints or, having the Last Judgment before their eyes, might remember to examine themselves more strictly.'

"In general the seventh century saw an exuberance of construction in Britain. The Anglo-Saxon Conquest was complete, the Danish had not begun, and architects, who had heretofore built in wood, now had the resources and spirit to raise great shrines in stone.

"Yet it must be confessed that Benedict imported his architects, glassmakers, and goldsmiths from Gaul. Bishop Wilfrid brought sculptors and painters from Italy to decorate his seventh-century church at Hexham.

"The beautifully illuminated Gospel Book of Lindisfarne (c.730) was the work of Irish monks transplantd by the eremitical or missionary zeal to that bleak isle off the Northumberland coast.

"The coming of the Danes ended this brief renascence. Not until the sound establishment of Cnut's power did English architecture resume its climb to majesty."

Much to discuss here.

I often remind my patients that emotion is the basic language, coming before speech. Do you folks agree that "literary prose comes later than poetry in all literatures, as intellect matures after fancy blooms?" Mal, you're a published writer. What do you think?

Durant speaks of the "readiness with which English men used English instead of Latin for works of theology." Any comparison here with various Roman Catholic churches in current times moving from Latin to English?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2005 - 04:45 pm
Here are some beautiful photos of the WINCHESTER CATHEDRAL.

Click onto "History and Heritage."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 21, 2005 - 04:52 pm
Read about the power of the BELL IN WINCHESTER CATHEDRAL.

Robby

Traude S
July 21, 2005 - 06:15 pm
ROBBY, we read Beowulf a long, very long time ago in a German translation.

I have no memory of the text or the monster Grendel, but I remember the professor, a philologist, literate, passionate but unfussy, holding up the copy of a page from the original manuscript, pointing to the long "s" (which was to be in use for centuries to come, at least in German), the twisted, squiggly letter purported to be a "g", and rueing the fact that, in his opinion, the German translation did not, could not do justice to the original alliterative verse composed by Anonymous in Old English.

We loved his classes. He was a born teacher and he touched our lives.

Traude S
July 21, 2005 - 06:48 pm
May I add a word about education.

As SCRAWLER said, it is (and it should be) a life-long process. Women in particular, deprived for ages - and still in some parts, should take advantage of every available opportunity.

But I also believe that very early exposure to learning (including languages) is not only invaluable but unforgettable, i.e. actually retained. Long before I had any thought of getting married or having children, I visited the legendary Casa dei Bambini in Rome, founded by Dr. Maria Montessori, the first female physician in Italy. Details are available in Goggle.

I wholeheartedly believe in and praise the Montessori Method, which has been tested, tried and proven to be successful around the world, including he United States. It fosters intellectual curiosity without rigid curricula or limits and provides individual attention.

My son attended a newly founded Montessori school in Virginia from age 4 and I was asked by the director to teach the children, first French and then German, too. The school was new and this was an experiment. Of course I agreed. I was a volunteer, unsalaried. It worked beautifully, I loved every minute of it and revel in the memories (especially of one sketch in French we presented to parents ...).

I would have liked nothing better than to expose my two grandchildren to Montessori training (and help pay for it), but it was impossible for logistic reasons.

Alliemae
July 21, 2005 - 07:39 pm
Not having my copy of the book as yet (it's on order and I should be picking it up soon), it's difficult for me to determine how the various issues of education in the Age of Faith and our times compare. I do, however, believe that there is great collateral damage' in our inattentiveness and lack of action in the education of our youth and even adults. It's a problem in part of frame of reference. I studied in Massachusetts schools for my first three years of elementary school and then we moved to a small, almost ghetto in Philadelphia. My parents were not well off but in our home was a genuine love and encouragement of learning. As a result of this, and the fact that my 'New England accent' made me sound very intelligent, I was popular with teachers and that gave me confidence to learn well. But as I grew up I began to recognize a problem which made me realize that Affirmative Action should not only be considered for race but most definitely for socio-economic status and in schools, for attitudes toward learning and appreciation of knowledge. Being bright, in my neighborhood, was definitely 'uncool'. It was not always ill-intentioned, in fact, it was more that an appreciation of learning or an attitude of diligence in learning simply didn't occur to many of the other students in my schools. It wasn't a reality for them. Reality was were they going to get breakfast or be hungry all morning in school till they got their Pepsi and chips for lunch. And I don't believe the parents should be blamed. They were, for the most part, doing everything they knew how to do in raising their children. Example: my mother was very ill from the time I was about 7 years old until she died when I was 28. There is a difference in knowing about things and KNOWING. I never learned how to keep house. I don't see cobwebs. Therefore, they are not real to me. I know people who can walk into a room and the first thing that will hit them is if a cobweb is in the corner of a ceiling. They don't believe that I just don't 'see' them. It's not a part of my personal frame of reference. When I was in community college I started as an adult and because of my almost inborn knowledge of the English language became a teacher's aide in some 'catch up' classes in English. There were students in my class who did not know 1/10 of the grammar, sentence construction, spelling that I did. But in reading their papers, I saw genius and such creativity of expression I was envious. But they didn't know they were anything special. And yet, given the proper support and direction they could be writers! We need to make teaching and learning our priority on every level that we can: economically, sociologically, psychologically. We need to expect the best from teachers and then PAY THEM at least as much as congressmen and women and with the same benefits and respect. We need to really look and see what each student needs and see how we can facilitate their receiving of those things. We need a budget that spends more on education than on a war which is being orchestrated by men who think that the way to cure a toothache is to blow someone's head off. Well, that's me for now...bet you'll all be happy when I get the book! Oh yes...and one more thing: it might not hurt if more critical thinking were taught and a little less electronics and technology. Advanced technology is a tool...not a god.

marni0308
July 21, 2005 - 07:43 pm
Robby: Thanks for the tip about fitting the window. It worked. Don't know what I did.

marni0308
July 21, 2005 - 07:53 pm
Recently, on an episode of "The World's Worst Jobs" on the History Channel, the topic was "How did they pull up the huge blocks of stone when they built the great cathedrals?" Answer: Treadmills. They showed how large round treadmills were manned by BLIND men (so they couldn't look down and see how frighteningly high up in the air they were). The treadmills acted as huge pulleys and lifted up the huge stone blocks which were tied to ropes. The blind men walked within the treadmill day in and day out, just like my son's gerbil used to walk in his treadmill to get exercise.

Here are some pictures of early building devices, including treadmills. Scroll to the far right to see the treadmill being used to build a cathedral.

http://www.theelevatormuseum.org/a/a_a2.htm

marni0308
July 21, 2005 - 08:05 pm
Re: Using English rather than Latin...

It seems there have been a number of rulers, including Alfred the Great and William the Conqueror, who have used the common language (English in this case) rather than Latin for written works, or church services, etc. in order (I believe) to gain the support and loyalty of the common man. I guess it's a power play. One thing that would occur is that it would place more support in the hands of the monarch as opposed to the church. It would also act as a means to pull the people together into one whole, solidify the country.

MeriJo
July 21, 2005 - 08:53 pm
Re: English versus Latin usage in the Catholic Church.

Until Vatican II in 1963 all Masses world-wide were said in Latin. After that council, permission was granted to use the vernacular. Hence English was used in countries where English was the main language. Although I have heard Mass said in English in Japan and in Italy, I have also heard a Mass said in Japanese at another time on a different Sunday, and heard one said in Italian another time on a Sunday. Today one may hear Mass said in French in New Hampshire for the French people who live there as well as English at another hour, and here in California's Central Valley, there is a Spanish Mass said every Sunday among the English Masses.

Most literary works and or articles/essays were written in the vernacular of the country, but in cases where the priests and hierarchy from different countries were to read these works - if very important and/or meaningful and/or pertinent works re a subject these would then be translated into Latin. All priests and bishops learned Latin so when meeting together or reading each others works it would be an easy thing to communicate in the common language all had learned, Latin. They still do learn Latin as a spoken language as well as a written language.

marni0308
July 21, 2005 - 08:56 pm
Wait.....It couldn't have been William the Conqueror. He made the nobility speak French.....Who am I thinking of??? Someone later the William. Oh dear. My memory is going. Sorry.

marni0308
July 21, 2005 - 09:35 pm
It may have been Edward III. Here is an interesting site re history of the English language.

http://www.wordorigins.org/histeng.htm#norman

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2005 - 03:12 am
AllieMae:-A wonderful post and welcome to our family here.

Great posts by all of you.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2005 - 03:14 am
Between Conquests.

1016-1066

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2005 - 03:29 am
"Cnut was more than a conqueror. He was a statesman.

"His early reign was tarnished with cruelty. He banished the children of Edmund Ironsides and had Edmund's brother murdered to forestall an Anglo-Saxon restoration.

"But then, noting that the widow and sons of King Ethelred were alive at Rouen, he cut many knots by offering Emma his hand in marriage (1017). She was thirty-three, he twenty-three. She consented and at one stroke Cnut secured a wife, an alliance with Emma's brother, the Duke of Normandy, and a safe throne.

"From that moment his reign became a blessing for England. He brought under discipline the disorderly nobles who had broken the unity and spirit of England. He protected the island from further invasion and gave it twelve years of pece. He accepted Christianity, built many churches, raised a shrine at Assandun to commemorate the Anglo-Saxons, as well as the Danes, who had fought there, and himself made a pilgrimage to Edmund's tomb.

"He promised to follow the existing laws and institutions of England and kept his word with two exceptions -- he insisted that county government, which had been debased by autocratic nobles, should be under his own appointees and he replaced the archbishop with a lay minister as chief counselor to the Crown.

"He developed an administrative staff and civil service that gave unprecedented continuity to the government. After the insecure early years of his rule, nearly all his appointees were Englishmen. He labored constantly in the tasks of state and repeatedly visited every part of his kingdom to supervise the administration of justice and the execution of the laws.

"He came in as a Dane and died as a Englishman. He was King of Denmark as well as of England and in 1028 he became also King of Norway but it was from Winchester that he ruled this triple realma."

I think of some of our founding fathers who came in as Englishmen and went out as Americans.

Any comments here about "how to be a Statesman?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2005 - 03:43 am
A brief history of WINCHESTER.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
July 22, 2005 - 05:22 am

ROBBY, you asked if I agree that "literary prose comes later than poetry in all literatures, as intellect matures after fancy blooms?" I am late answering because since I came home from the nursing home July 4th I seem to have to go to bed at 8 or 8:30, a very early hour for this former night owl. No more do I write the night away, surprised at how fast the time has gone from 9 p.m. to 3 a.m.

Judging from the number of unsolicited submittals I receive for my electronic literary magazines, I'd say that everyone thinks he or she is a poet. The abundance of these submittals was why I started publshing the m.e.stubbs poetry journal in the first place.

I'm a tough critic of my own work and everything else I read. Most of the poetry I receive in the mail is an earnest expression of someone's feelings, usually, but very little of it is publishable. Maybe it's easier to put feelings into poetry form than prose. I think it's a first tendency, anyway.

In the environment in which I was raised in Massachusetts, nobody spoke proper English. It got to a point where it grated on my nerves, so I learned all the grammar I could in self-defense. It's not easy to be bright, studious and diligent about schoolwork, I think, when the interest of your peers doesn't run along those lines. With me, it also happened that I was afraid I'd be punished by the aunt and uncle who raised me if I didn't get good grades.

I wonder often whether I'd have spent so many hours studying and practicing my music if I hadn't had polio. If I'd been "normal" the best chance is that I'd have been out climbing trees and playing the games the other kids played.

Well, if I hadn't had polio, I wouldn't have been taken away from my mother. who lived on "the acre", she was so poor. The truth is that my whole life ( and I ) would have been different. I figure the best chance is that I'd never even have heard of SeniorNet and the Story of Civilization, much less have had any interest in such things. I was bitten by the show biz bug at a very early age. As a kid whose favorite thing was tap dancing before I had polio, all I could think of was being a dancer and performing onstage. All the intensity I've directed toward intellectual and not physical pursuits would have gone toward achieving that goal.

Mal

Alliemae
July 22, 2005 - 05:26 am
Thank you Robby...

Malryn (Mal)
July 22, 2005 - 05:38 am

Ruins of Glastonbury Cathedral. Click thumbnails to see larger image.

Alliemae
July 22, 2005 - 05:49 am
Mal, I thoroughly enjoyed your posting and look forward to viewing your 'm.e.stubbs poetry journal'. I'm not a poet but love to read poetry.

Robby, do you have a citation or reference for "literary prose comes later than poetry in all literatures, as intellect matures after fancy blooms?" or will I find one when I go back to previous postings?...would like to read the piece in its entirety. It was beautiful. Thank you.

Hope this paragraphing works.

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2005 - 06:13 am
Allie:-You did read the piece in its entirety. That was a remark by Durant. It was the first sentence in a paragraph and I posted the entire paragraph which can be found near the top of Page 491 in the hardcover version of The Age of Faith. You will find that while Durant is a historian, he often speaks in poetic form, not to mention words that most of us here never heard and are learning by reading him.

And yes, your paragraphing works. This makes your postings much easier to read.

Robby

Scrawler
July 22, 2005 - 10:17 am
Before the American Civil War it was considered a CRIME for a teacher to teach a person of color. The teacher could be thrown in jail or run out of town. And the Negro was considered a trouble maker and flogged or sold.

I found this interesting fact while researching: "It was true that the public debt of South Carolina, $7 million in 1865, went up to $29 million in 1873, but the new legislature introduced free public schools for the first time into the state. Not only were seventy thousand Negro children going to school by 1876 where NONE had gone before, but fifty thousand white children were going to school were only twenty thousand had attended in 1860." ~ "A People's History, et al"

Throughout history we can find examples where people have been denied education do to the color of their skin, their religion, because they were to poor and other various reasons. Education is gift and an opportunity and should be treated as such.

MeriJo
July 22, 2005 - 11:47 am
I agree, Scrawler, and I could go on and on in that vein. Thank you for posting that.

MeriJo
July 22, 2005 - 12:02 pm
On the same trip in 1984 that I visited Durham Cathedral, I also visited Winchester Cathedral. I remember that the guide pointed out that Rufus, William II of England had been buried there. He had been a most "ungodly" man and shortly after he was buried there the central tower collapsed. It was never built any higher. The people blamed the collapse on the fact that Rufus had been buried there.

It is a lovely old cathedral - a lighter stone, than Durham's, and is associated with Jane Austen and is the only cathedral which has had a song written about it.

winsum
July 22, 2005 - 12:23 pm
The etchings alone are beautiful to say nothing of the explanations. . . thank you . . . claire

marni0308
July 22, 2005 - 12:58 pm
Throughout history education also has been denied to many on the basis of sex. Women have been denied a formal or higher education in many societies.

Recently, I read an interesting article about our CT state hero, Nathan Hale. Mainly, I remember him for being captured and hanged as a spy inthe American Revolution and for the quote "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country."

I read that before Hale was in the army, he taught in the Union Grammar School in New London, Connecticut (my home town where the one-room schoolhouse is still maintained). Apparently, Nathan Hale was a liberal thinker. While at Yale, he participated in a debate to discuss the issue: "Whether the education of daughters be not without any just reason, more neglected than that of sons."

"He did not believe in the common practice of educating only the young men of the new world. He made an arrangement with the leaders of the Union Grammar School to teach the young ladies of the area. Because this was not something normally done, Nathan had to teach his class of twenty women between the hours of five and seven in the morning. This way it would not interfere with his main job, teaching the boys."

Here's an interesting article about Nathan Hale:

http://www.ctssar.org/patriots/nathan_hale_2.htm

3kings
July 22, 2005 - 01:08 pm
A sentence from DURANT, as posted by ROBBY:- "Even among poetry and war men and women found time and spirit to give form to significance and beauty to things of use."

That underlined phrase leaves me wondering as to its meaning. I think I can get my head around "to give significance to form", but "form to significance" ? Help !

JUSTIN when speaking of cathedrals you refer to the 'triforium'. Is that pronounced 'tri-forium' or 'trif-orium'. I am reminded of the word 'trilogy' I Keeptrying to pronounce that as 'tri-logy.' to emphasis its meaning as a three part work, but folk keep correcting me to say 'tril-ogy' LOL ++ Trevor

mabel1015j
July 22, 2005 - 01:36 pm
Generalizations are almost always wrong to some extent (as this one may be ). I have concern when people describe a large group of people as being all good or all bad. Teacher's unions and other other unions vary a great deal as to their worthiness.

Unions are a lot like institutional religion. We need to recognize the good and the bad. They can be extreme and abusive of the power they have, but when you need the support and leverage that they can provide, it is wonderful to have them.

I have worked in a public school where there was a strong union and in one where there was no union. The one w/ a strong union had very good teachers, well-eduacated students, creative faculty and did not abuse the power of the organization. The one w/out a union had teachers who were very scared about their jobs, did very little that was creative, were fightened to speak up and put up w/ abuses of the administration. Much less academic education went on in that district........Jean

robert b. iadeluca
July 22, 2005 - 05:15 pm
Any comments about the last text of Durant in Post 291? King Cnut? Being a statesman? Edmund Ironsides? Widow of King Ethelred? Emma's brother, the Duke Normandy? the shrine at Assandun? King Cnut's administrative staff and civil service? Holding three crowns?

Not yet hearing thoughts regarding all that, I am assuming you want me to hold up on presenting Durant's next text.

Robby

Alliemae
July 22, 2005 - 05:18 pm
Re: Ruins of Glastonbury Cathedral link (#295)

I was not aware of the story of Jesus in England but we also have lore about Jesus being in the Americas during his 'lost years'...a book called "He Walked the Americas"

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?query=He%20Walked%20the%20Americas,%20book

Alliemae
July 22, 2005 - 05:57 pm
Ah yes...I have read your posting #291 in fact I was just looking back for it to read it again when I found your #305.

"Cnut was more than a conqueror. He was a statesman."

I believe he was quite a statesman.

I was not too pleased with his banishing of Edmund of Ironsides children or having Edmund's brother murdered but he had reasons which, at the time, were not only the usual practice but, to him, good reasons.

It seems that for a young man of twenty-three he made a wise alliance by marrying Emma

However this seems to be the way to statesmanship: "From that moment...he brought under discipline the disorderly nobles who had broken the unity and spirit of England."

He also kept his promises to the people except the two. These two reconsidered promises did well for the development of "...an administrative staff and civil service that gave unprecedented continuity to the government."

And he tripled his realm.

As Durant said, "Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."

MeriJo
July 22, 2005 - 08:59 pm
robby:

I am having a time keeping up, but if you want to hold off for a day that is fine with me. I do want to read the links and that is what is holding me up. The links are so interesting along with the actual excerpts. I think I may be spending too much time savoring them.

mabel1015j
July 22, 2005 - 09:43 pm
See #210 for comment on Emma

Bubble
July 23, 2005 - 02:30 am
http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/timelines/tl001.html

This is a fascinating site on Timelines of Art History.

http://pewglobal.org/ This one might interest you in view of the trouble times we live in.

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2005 - 03:45 am
MeriJo:-Regarding your having a time keeping up, perhaps you are wasting too much time on other less important activities. I suggest, for example, that you stop going to the store, eliminate eating meals, don't bother washing or taking a shower, don't even bother dressing -- and you will be amazed how much time you will have available toward the more important things in life, e.g. reading and posting in The Story of Civilization. First things first, my mother always taught me.

I've even considered suggesting to the powers that be in Senior Net that they eliminate all the other discussion groups except this one, but somehow I don't think they would take too kindly to that.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2005 - 04:12 am
"The Danish Conquest continued that long process of foreign invasion and racial mixture which culminated in the Norman Conquest and finally produced the English people.

"Celt and Gaul, Angle and Saxon and Jute, Dane and Norman, mingled their blood in marriage or otherwise, to transform the undistinguished and uninitiative Briton of Roman day into the vocal buccaneers of Elizabeth's time and the silent world conquerors of later centuries.

"The Danes, like the Germans and the Norse, brought into England an almost mystic love of the sea, a willingness to accept its treacherous invitation to adventure and trade in distant lands.

"Culturally, the Danish invasions were a blight. Architectue marked time. The art of illumination decayed from 750 to 950. The intellectual progress so promoted by Alfred was checked, even as in Gaul Norse raids were canceling the labors of Charlemagne.

"Cnut might have repaired more of the damage his people had wrought had he been granted a longer life.

"But men wear out rapidly in war or government. Cnut died in 1035, aged forty. Norway at once threw off the Danish yoke. Harthacnut, Cnut's son and appointed heir, had all he could do to protect Denmark against Norwegian invasion. Another son, Harald Harefoot, ruled England for five years, then died. Harthacnut ruled it for two years and passed away (1042). Before his death he summoned from Normandy the surviving son of Ethelred and Emma and recognized this Anglo-Saxon stepbrother as heir to the English throne.

"But Edward the Confessor (1042-66) was as much of a foreigner as any Dane. Carried to Normandy by his father at the age of ten, he had passed thirty years at the Norman court, brought up by Norman nobles and priests, and trained to a guileless piety. He brought to England his French speech, customs, and friends.

"These friends became high officials and prelates of the state, received royal grants, built Norman castles in England, showed their scorn for English language and ways, and began the Norman Conquest a generation before the Conqueror.

Durant describes the "English People" -- "vocal buccaneers" -- "silent world conquerors of later centuries." How do you folks see the British?

And is it true that "men wear out rapidly in war or government?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2005 - 05:02 am
Read about the END OF THE DANISH LINE in England.

Robby

Bubble
July 23, 2005 - 06:22 am
Re Post 311- Beware Robby, I think someone is tieing her boxing gloves...

the English people were for sure conquerors, or how would they have formed the Commonwealth?

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2005 - 06:41 am
Here is a note from Dorian, Mal's daughter:--

THE LITTLE BLACK CLOUD DUMPED RAIN ON MAL'S HEAD AGAIN

I got home yesterday to a concerned Jim telling me I'd better come into my mama's house right quick. There she was on the floor, in quite a bit of pain. Evidently she had stood up from the wheelchair at the sink and her right knee (the strong one) buckled, and she went down hard. Somehow her left calf snagged the foot rest on the wheelchair and she ended up with a gash. I saw her, saw the blood, and called 911.

They arrived after what seemed like an interminable amount of time to Mal (maybe 20 minutes) and the EMTs quickly assessed her situation and very deftly swept her up and took her to the hospital, with me following.

The good news about arriving in an ambulance, it seems, is that you are sent through the system faster. They let me in to her 'room' in the ER a short time after I parked the car and I checked her in and then sat with her.

The x-rays revealed that she broke her femur, right above the knee. After a long wait, they stitched her up and then gave her a temporary knee immobilizer cast with plans to give her a fiberglass one in 7 days, after the swelling has gone down. We managed to wangle an ambulance ride back home and arrived here at about 2:30 am.

She's in good spirits today, relaxed in her FOMB fashion, recovering from the ordeal a bit before she tries to get up and tap dance again.

Well, folks, this is a hell of a note, I'd say. She didn't need more pain, she didn't need more immobility, but what are you gonna do? Carry on! I think I'll invite some tribal belly dancers over this afternoon to keep her entertained.

Take care everybody. Best, Dorian

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2005 - 07:14 am
MESSAGE FROM MAL

PRONE ON MY FRONE, SNUG IN MY VERY OWN BED

Yup, seems my left leg took a beating yesterday when I went down. I am told the bones in my left leg are very very brittle. I'll be 6-8 weeks in a cast if all goes well. The 13 stitches will come out sooner than that.

Intermittently there has been a great deal of pain, but I took two pain pills before I went to the hospital, but I was given another one and a shot of morphine when I got there. I met some lovely people again and was treated very well. Two people told me they wished all their patients in the ER were as wackily nice as I am. That made me feel good, so I gave them both a big hug.

I met two different sets of EMT people yesterday, all of whom paid attention to what I told them regarding my incapacited BROKEN leg - even the man who wanted to cut off my beautiful striped sock. I said, "No you will not! I paid twenty bucks for those socks!" So bloody or not, Dorian took it off my leg and it's soaking now along with my head.

There's a song that goes, "Everything happens to me, why?". A poet I know wrote a poem about this. "And God replied, 'Because.'"

Now I have one more little thing to get over. A 'minor trauma' they called it in the emergency room, whereupon I smacked them all in the kneecap and they found out what I mean.

Be well, stay well, have a really beautiful day today. I intend to. Mal

Scrawler
July 23, 2005 - 09:39 am
I hope that you will be well soon so that you can enjoy the beauty that surrounds you.

JoanK
July 23, 2005 - 10:40 am
Oh. Mal -- thinking of you. Get well, and keep up that wonderful spirit.

Justin
July 23, 2005 - 01:49 pm
Mal: It is encouraging to me and I am sure to others to see you standing up to life,feisty, and fighting back from hard knocks to make yourself well. You will win in the end. I know you will. I can't wait to have you back at the computer running down obscure but relevant links and challenging us to post well. .

MeriJo
July 23, 2005 - 04:26 pm
robby:

I am just slow. I have started to read about CNUT three times. I get company and have other interruptions and then feel compelled to go back. Now I have moved to the next one - Ethelred, I think. It has been so many years since I even thought about these times of history. I do remember Beowulf from high school. It was so different it was interesting and again I was slow reading it.

Bubble:

I think robby knows I take no offense. I just told him how I love to savor the different links and, of course, that takes a lot of time, and when I am reading I don't notice the time go by.

MeriJo
July 23, 2005 - 04:34 pm
Mal:

My very best wishes. You certainly do not need any more pain or lying around. It's good to see your cheerful posts in spite of all this.

robert b. iadeluca
July 23, 2005 - 05:21 pm
Do you folks have any answers to my questions in Post #312?

Robby

Traude S
July 23, 2005 - 06:37 pm
ROBBY,

"But men wear out more rapidly in war or government." is Durant's stated opinion and IMHO at best a truism, for there is no absolute truth.

Durant is an admirable wordsmith, perhaps unparalleled in the English language, but his description of the English (of that era- one presumes) as "vocal bucaneers" is astonishingly bold, if I may say so.

MeriJo
July 23, 2005 - 06:40 pm
Robby:

When you posted the following, I didn't know you were joking. That is why I posted that you could take a day off if you wanted to do so, as I was slow and not keeping up.

Not yet hearing thoughts regarding all that, I am assuming you want me to hold up on presenting Durant's next text.

mabel1015j
July 23, 2005 - 07:07 pm
What IS a "vocal buccaneer"?

Justin - you gave us a nice discourse on Romanesque architecture, can you do the same about Norman castles?

Love the links, they have been very interesting

Just saw a travel show where they were in Bath. Looks like a beautiful, charming town.

Do people of various nationalities have particular personalities? Are people of the U.S. different from the British, as a group?

Traude S
July 23, 2005 - 07:44 pm
JEAN, that's an interesting qustion! I would answer, perhaps not so much personalities, but common characteristics and/or attributes based on a common history and geography. To a certain extent that puts a kind of "stamp" on a person, I believe.

The term "buccaneer" (= pirate) for the English surprised me because it has been used historically, at least to my knowledge, in connection with the Spanish of a different century. And then paired with "vocal" yet !!

marni0308
July 23, 2005 - 09:36 pm
Re: "Durant describes the "English People" -- "vocal buccaneers" -- "silent world conquerors of later centuries." How do you folks see the British?"

The "vocal buccaneers" cracks me up! I can just picture Sir Francis Drake and Henry Morgan with crew singing "Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum" or "Yo ho, heave ho" and other sea shanties!

Yes, the British absolutely were world conquerors of later centuries. (silent?) What's that phrase of the 19th century...."The sun never sets on the British empire...." There certainly were other challengers to this title...the Spanish, of course, the French, the Dutch, the Ottomans?, even the Chinese I read recently in National Geographic.

But, until the United States came along in the 20th century, there was no nation like the British when it came to world conquest. They ruled the sea. By ruling the sea, they ruled the world. And such a tiny nation. I just love Durant's words suggesting the British inherited their sea roving spirit. They certainly figured out how to sail and navigate and how to build ships. They also became "a country of merchants" and developed a system of trade. They wanted wealth, spices, exotic goods and foods, territory, and power. And they could fight, conquer, subdue, and rule (for awhile, anyway.)

I have a love for fiction and non-fiction about the British and American sea power. It's fun and fascinating. Anyone who likes this stuff absolutely MUST read Nelson : A Dream of Glory 1758 - 1797 by John Sugden. For fiction lovers I am forever recommending the Patrick O'Brien series about Captain Jack Aubrey and the C.S. Forester series about Horation Hornblower. SO GOOD. And my sister-in-law introduced me to Raphael Sabatini, who wrote such wonderful pirate tales as Captain Blood.

winsum
July 23, 2005 - 09:42 pm
The Courtny series by Wilbur Smith who lives and writes in South Africa sixteenth and seventeenth century (?) stories about privateers. . . licensed by the CROWN. . . .to acquire booty in which they could share. One way to finance warfare. . . . claire

elizabeth 78
July 23, 2005 - 10:07 pm
Marni, I am reading an audio Captain Blood right now, and I have been completely through O'Brian's 20 volume sea tale twice. I also heard one of the volumes on audio and it is excellent--as good or better than reading the text IMHO.

3kings
July 23, 2005 - 10:17 pm
British sea power ? well yes, if by sea power you mean the merchant fleet. The navy played a part, relatively small, in the building of the British Empire.

It was the Army and the British Civil Service, supported be the merchant fleet that by force of arms, and guile, set faction against faction in the target lands.

Each faction by not hanging together, ended up hanging separately, with the British Army in total control. It was a scenario repeated time and time again, especially in Africa, India, New Zealand. It was a strategy not required so much in the case of Canada, and Australia, which had only small native populations.

And It failed spectacularly in the case of the United States, as I'm sure you all recall. LOL.

But we really are getting far a head of our script.++ Trevor

Bubble
July 24, 2005 - 12:57 am
"But men wear out more rapidly in war or government."

They don't wear that rapidly, when I see the average age in the governments around the world and specifically here. I always had the feeling that the excitement of being at the top might prolong their interesting life.

Trevor, Is #330 "Divide so as to better rule over"? I think that destroying local traditions also gave the "colonizers" a better grip to hold the populations. That was certainly true in Africa. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 05:01 am
To help make clear some of my thoughts -- While all your related remarks (other books for example) are most interesting and I wouldn't want to discourage them, I look primarily for your reactions to the words of Durant. We are, after all, discussing one of his books.

Therefore, if I post some of Durant's text and I hear no comments related to what he just said, that means to me that you have not yet read it and I might wait a day until I hear your thoughts about Durant. As soon as you start speaking about Durant and what he said, then I move on to his next paragraph or section. I may be the Discussion Leader but you folks are the motor, so to speak, determining our speed of movement.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 05:28 am
Edward the Confessor had just come over from France bringing with him to England his French speech, customs, and friends.

"Only one Englishman could compete with them in influencing the mild and malleable King.

"Earl Godwin, governor of Wessex, and first counselor of the realm under Cnut, Harald, and Harthacnut, was a man of both wealth and wisdom. A master of patient diplomacy, of convincing eloquence and administrative skill -- the first great lay statesman in English history.

"His experience in the government gave him an ascendancy over the King. His daughter Edith became Edward's wife and might hve made Godwin grandfather to a king but Edward begot no children.

"When Godwin's son Tostig married Judith, daughter of the count of Flanders, and Godwin's nephew Sweyn became ruler of Denmark, the Earl had forged by marriage a triple alliance that made him the strongest man in northern Europe, far more powerful than his King.

"Edward's Norman friends roused him to jealousy. He deposed Godwin. The Earl fled to Flanders, while his son Harold went to Ireland and raised an army against the Confessor (1051). The English nobles, resenting the Norman ascendancy, invited Godwin to return and pledged him the support of their arms.

"Harold invaded England, defeated the King's troops, ravaged and plundered the southwest coast and joined his father in an advance up the Thames. The populace of London rose to acclaim them. The Norman officials and prelates fled. A Witenagemot of English nobles and bishops gave Godwin a triumphant reception. Godwin resumed his confiscated property and his political power (1052).

"A year later, exhausted with tribulation and victory, he died.

"Harald was appointed Earl of Wessex and succeeded in some measure to his father's power.

"He was not thirty one, tall, handsome, strong, gallant, reckless, merciless in war, generous in peace. In a whirlwind of bold campaigns he conquered Wales for England and presented the head of the Welsh chieftain Gruffydd to the pleased and horrified King (1063). In a gentler phase of his impetuous career he poured out funds to buld the abbey church at Waltham (1060) and to support the college that grew out of the cathedral school.

"All England beamed upon the romantic youth."

The constant French-English "disagreement" never seems to cease. I wonder why.

Any comment about Earl Godwin's diplomatic skill (especially in the field of getting his family members married to the right people) and what it did for him? Any similar actions in today's world?

I wonder if Harald's act of cutting off the Welsh chieftain's head and bring it back home means that the English (not the French) were still barbaric.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 05:33 am
What is a WITENAGEMOT?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 05:46 am
An excellent bio of EDWARD THE CONFESSOR.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 05:50 am
Here is a detailed bio of TOSTIG.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 05:53 am
Elizabeth, I don't believe I welcomed you to our family here. I want to pause to do so. We have a great time and I am looking forward to your participation.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 06:09 am
How WALES struggled for survival.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 06:17 am
Here is a beautiful descrition of the WELSH CULTURE. Click onto "Chapter 1" to read some of its history.

Robby

Alliemae
July 24, 2005 - 08:27 am
WITENAGEMOT

Instant impression--although not members by election, U.S. Senate, and wondering if any political alliances and 'lobbying' went on--must read further of course...

Very happy the definition included a sound link.

Alliemae
July 24, 2005 - 09:04 am
Re: Welsh History

Wouldn't it seem that the expression 'divide and conquer' may have been more valuable if stated and learned as 'be divided and be conquered'?

It just seems to me that many nations have fallen by their own internal divisiveness than outside dividing. (or maybe I've just misunderstood the original phrase all along?...)

I find it ironic that invading bodies tend to define their 'prey' as barbaric! Who's invading whom?

This link about Welsh Culture makes me want to learn Welsh language in a BIG WAY! All of this great and heroic history...what an indomitable and fascinating people the Welsh must be.

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 09:07 am
Allie:-In just one more page in Durant's volume, he will move us to Wales and we will become "experts" on that subject.

Robby

JoanK
July 24, 2005 - 10:16 am
I look forward to becoming an expert on Wales, a country (?!) I know little about.

I'm ready to learn the Welsh language too. Here, from Robby's link, is an English phrase written in the Welsh alphabet:

Gwd lwc. Ai hop ddat yw can ryd ddys and ddat yt meiks sens tw yw. Iff yw can ryd ddys, dden yw ar dwing ffaen and wil haf no problems at ol yn lyrnyng awr ffaen Welsh alffabet.

Can you read this (hint--it starts "Good luck")

Bubble
July 24, 2005 - 10:35 am
WOW Joan! That is easier to read than Hebrew! Bubble

Justin
July 24, 2005 - 01:19 pm
It is easy to think that one day in 1066, William of Normandy with nothing else to amuse him that day, chose to bring his army across the channel to invade England, the land of the angles but the reality is that the invasion of England by Normans began years earlier.

Edward the Confessor, son of Emma, a Norman woman married to Ethelred, a Danish King of the Angles, Saxons,Jutes, Normans, and Danes, who blended to form English society, was raised in a Norman court. He spoke French and was essentially a royal Norman. When he inherited the English throne he continued his preference for things Norman. He made Robert Jumiege, a Norman, Archbishop of Canterbury and eventually named William l of Normandy his heir. but he failed to control his noble barons even though he married Earl Godwin's daughter, Edith and subsequently named Harold, Godwin's son, as heir.Harold was the Buccaneer. He spent his time battling the rebellious nobles.

Then one day, William l, leader of the Norman Barons across the channel, thought "I have nothing better to do today so why don't I take the army and sail to England to take the throne that Edward promised me. Harold is in the South battling a rebellion so I can secure the north before he gets wind of it. Then I will be King of England and Normandy and the Angles and Saxons and Jutes and Celts will all speak French one day.

The thought I am trying to get across here is that things like the invasion of England by the Normans do not just happen without cause.

JoanK
July 24, 2005 - 01:47 pm
BUBBLE: the passage I quoted is not Welsh. It is English words written in the Welsh alphabet to get one used to the differences in pronunciation (like "w" pronounced as "oo"). When I brushed up my Hebrew, the book I used had at the beginning English words written in the Hebrew alphabet. If I couldn't tell what English word it was supposed to be, i knew I wasn't pronouncing the Hebrew letters right. It was actually very helpful.

This material is interesting. I always assumed that the Normans in England started -- bang-- one day in 1066. I studied English history in grade school, but it started in 1066!!

kiwi lady
July 24, 2005 - 02:26 pm
From my reading I believe the first people in Britain were the Picts (sp?) they were small dark haired and from memory a friend of mine who did Anthropology at Uni said they were Celtic. You can see remnants of these people in Cornwall. My dads family come from Cornwall and he was fair skinned and had red hair and his brother was small dark and olive skinned. Dads coloring would come from Erik the red and his lot and Uncle Larrys colouring would go back to the Pict heritage.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 02:35 pm
Carolyn:-It's so good to have you back!! Carolyn is one of the regular stalwarts who posted regularly ever since we began 3 1/2 years ago. She has been busy with other things but it is my hope, Carolyn, that you will be able to continue with us as you used to do. She lives in New Zealand and so, I am sure, has lots of thoughts about Britain.

Robby

kiwi lady
July 24, 2005 - 02:53 pm
Robby I am British on my maternal grandfathers side but my grandmother was Scottish with Irish grandparents. On my fathers side I am British through and through. My Mother's family are fifth generation NZers but my Dad came here with the British Navy as a sonar instructor to our Navy. He worked at the Naval School here in Auckland. That is how he met my Mum. He married here but had to go back to Britain for 2 yrs to work out his tour of duty. Mum would not go back with him so she stayed here and he joined her after he had signed out from the Navy.

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 02:56 pm
You're in luck, Carolyn. After Durant completes Wales, he then moves on to Ireland, and then to Scotland.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 24, 2005 - 03:00 pm
Most participants haven't yet commented on the long text by Durant in Post #333, so I'll hold off until reactions are posted.

Robby

kiwi lady
July 24, 2005 - 03:32 pm
After reading that post 333 Its interesting to note that our Prince Edward on his Marriage was given the title of Earl of Wessex.

Advantageous marriages today seem to be mostly confined to the children of the Super Rich Kings of Industry rather than the children of Royalty many of whom these days are marrying commoners. These days you often see a child of say a media magnate marrying the child of another media magnate. (Just as an example).

elizabeth 78
July 24, 2005 - 06:09 pm
I just lurk Robbie, not participate, but you folks are a joy to follow.

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 24, 2005 - 08:10 pm
They can tolerate each other only after they have learned each other's language, those who don't can't.

kiwi lady
July 24, 2005 - 08:59 pm
We speak the same language Eloise but we have a love-hate relationship with the Aussies. Terrible rivalry! Suspect it may be the same with the French and English!

marni0308
July 24, 2005 - 09:03 pm
I'm so pleased to have the links to the Welsh info. My grandmother came over from Wales and I've never learned a thing about Wales. I just inherited a pair of 400-year old Welsh candlesticks from my aunt who died. I was thinking I really have to find out about my Welsh heritage. This is a beginning!

Re: "I wonder if Harald's act of cutting off the Welsh chieftain's head and bring it back home means that the English (not the French) were still barbaric."

Still barbaric? I guess becoming civilized is moving away from barbarism. But, deep down, aren't we all barbaric in one way or another, despite what we have learned and how much we think we are civilized? It really comes out in warfare. And warfare is with us just as much as ever. Barbaric atrocities are committed by every nation in warfare, no matter how much attempts are made to hush them up. Just look at what white Americans as well as native Americans did to each other during the Indian wars of the 18th and 19th centuries. Heads (and many other body parts) were cut off then. Is using napalm more civilized than cutting off heads? I think the book Lord of the Flies expressed it well.

Bubble
July 24, 2005 - 11:35 pm
Eloise, maybe the solution is that the whole world should learn Arabic.

Robby, is it savagery to cut one's enemies's head? Mmmm... maybe one feels more certain they will not be resurrected

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 02:14 am
"The great architectural event of Edward's reign was the beginning (1055) of Westminster Abbey.

"While living in Rouen he had become familiar with the Norman style. Now, in commissioning the abbey that was to be the shrine and tomb of England's genius, he bade or let it be designed in Norman Romanesque on the same lines as the magnificent abbey church which had been started only five yers before at Jumieges. Here again was a Norman conquest before William.

"Westminster Abbey was the beginning of an architectural efflorescence that would give England the finest Romanesque buildings in Europe.

"In that abbey Edward was laid to rest early in the fateful year 1066.

"On January 6 the assembled Witenagemot elected Harold king.

"He had hardly been crowned when news came that William, Duke of Normandy, cliamed the throne and was preparing war. Edward, said William, had in 1051 promised to bequeath him the English crown in gratitude for thirty years of protection in Normandy. Apparently the promise had been made but Edward, regretting or forgetting it, had shortly before his death, recommended Harold as his successor.

"In any case such a promise had no validity unless approveed by the Witan. But, said William, Harold, on a visit to him at Rouen (date now unknown) had accepted knighthood from him, had become William's 'man,' owed him submission according to feudal law, and had promised to recognize and support him as heir to Edward's throne. Harold admitted this pledge.

"But again no oath of his could bind the English nation. The representatives of that nation had freely chosen him for its king. Harold now resolved to defend that choice.

"William appealed to the Pope. Alexander II, counseled by Hildebrand, condemned Harold as a usurper, excommunicaated him and his adherents and declared William the lawful claimant of the English throne. He blessed William's proposed invasion and sent him a consecrated banner and a ring conaining, within a diamond, a hair of St. Peter's head.

"Hildebrand was glad to set a precedent for the papal disposition of thrones and deposition of kings. Ten years later he would apply the precedent to Henry IV of Germany. It would come in handy in 1213 with King John.

"Lanfranc, Abbot of Bec, joined William in calling the people of Normandy -- indeed of all countries -- to a holy war against the escommunicated king."

My high school history was lacking in details. I had no idea that William and Harold had known each other personally.

Any comments on the phrase "a Norman conquest before William?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 02:18 am
Here is a photo of WESTMINSTER ABBEY. Note the nearby church of the House of Commons.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 02:22 am
Sit back and enjoy a SERIES OF PHOTOS of Westminster Abbey.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 02:29 am
What is a WITAN?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 02:34 am
Here is a very interesting bio of POPE ALEXANDER II. While there, click onto Hildebrand to learn more about him.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 02:40 am
Read about LANFRANC AND THE ABBEY OF BEC.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 02:55 am
Here is an intriguing personal tale and a map about BEC.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 04:44 am
"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe withn the next hundred years, it could be Islam."

George Bernard Shaw -- said in the early 20th Century

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 04:53 am
Is this the FUTURE OF ENGLAND? As usual, consider the source of the link.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 05:02 am
"If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is forever England."

- - - Rupert Brooke

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 05:15 am
MORNING FROM MAL

There's some hazy sun. It looks as if it's going to be hot, but I don't know, as I am alternately hot and cold, as Dorian who alternately gives me heating pads and ice packs will tell you.

Dorian will be off to work soon and I will be alone. Jim is in the main house if I have an emergency. I can't get near a computer so if you feel rich and think you want to say hello, write to Dorian (prysmw@msn.com) and she'll send you my phone number. Meanwhile, a cheery (hurting) hello to all. Stay well, be well.

Mal

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 25, 2005 - 06:49 am
Oh! Mal, how dreadful for you. I am sorry that you are so unlucky. You show us all what courage is in spite of everything that happens. I hope that you will get well soon and cheer us up with your special stimulating personality.

About a corner of the world that is "forever" English, I think that nothing on earth is eternal, not even England, but it has spread its language in every corner of the world. To me the language of a nation reflects its character.

Sometimes two countries speaking different languages such as in France and England, can hardly find a common ground to agree upon except for trade. Catholic countries such as France and Ireland find great difficulties in getting along with Protestant England.

The problem in Canada is that two official languages are spoken by people practicing two different religions. I live right in the middle of it.

America's melting pot promotes unity of purpose and it is a good example of its benefits. The different religions practiced in the US become blurred when everyone speaks the same language, but at the start it is the English language that was at its very foundation. No other place on earth have ever experienced this unity of language among peoples of different religions on such a large scale.

Éloïse

Alliemae
July 25, 2005 - 07:27 am
Robby, so glad you asked about WITAN...so much easier to pronounce than WITENAGEMOT!

Your posting also led me to 'thanes' which I am delighted to be introduced to. I LOVE words...sometimes whether I know their meaning or not...and also the rhythm of language, also whether I understand it or not! (but I do know the meaning of 'thanes' now!)

Alliemae
July 25, 2005 - 07:33 am
I always wonder, when I see such wondrous cathedrals, what would life be like if all that time, creativity and money had been invested in the poorer classes and education.

I have a friend who visited Italy and when she returned to Rome wanted so desperately to shout in the square, "Tear down your churches and FEED THE POOR!"

I felt rather the same way in Istanbul, Turkey...especially about the palaces...visited there twice and haven't visited a palace yet...just seemed incongruous with riding the Bosphorus on a vapur watching 7 and 8 year old brothers polishing shoes and using the money to buy a yogurt for their 5 or 6 year little brother when there was only enough money for one.

As cathedrals go, however, they are magnificent.

Actually, times don't seem to have changed all that much...except in our 'era' the money which could be used for the poor and for education and health is being eaten up by war and spying machines, systems and materials. Hmmmm...churches vs. wars, wars vs. churches...one wonders.

MeriJo
July 25, 2005 - 11:09 am
Something about Italy, Allie Mae:

There are poor people in Italy, but if you tore down their churches you would have a revolution on your hands.

In Italy, many of the exteriors of buildings appear neglected, but once you enter, the stairs are of marble - the chandeliers are crystal and the furniture is elegant. It is for the benefit of the tax assessor that the exteriors are forlorn. The taxes are estimated accordingly.

Also, there is a two tier economy in Italy. There is the obvious one and there is the underground one. Many people do well where there is no need to be concerned about taxes, although it may be necessary to appear accordingly.

There has been much immigration from Peru, and the Middle East to Italy, and it may be a majority of them that your friend saw.

winsum
July 25, 2005 - 11:58 am
that text looks like my posts bfore spellcheckhas a chance at them. I tend to leave out vowels which is how I see that sample. I'm able to read most of it. . . Claire

MeriJo
July 25, 2005 - 02:05 pm
I hope I am not repeating something already posted, but there was some discussion about Normandy and England. I found this and I thought it to be an interesting footnote to share:

Emma's marriage with Aethelred was an important step in the history of the relations between England and Normandy, and J. R. Green says "it suddenly opened for its rulers a distinct policy, a distinct course of action, which led to the Norman conquest of England. From the moment of Emma's marriage Normandy became a chief factor in English politics."

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 25, 2005 - 02:13 pm
In a Portuguese small town by the sea there was a small white church that looked like a square box with a small steeple on top and when I walked inside, my eyes went wide at the sight of all the gold that was displayed there. The ceiling was exquisitely painted with religious figures and the four walls right up to the ceiling was covered in gold leaf. Yet from the street, it looked like a poor little church lost in a small fishing village.

The population didn't look poorly fed, fishing and gardening was enough to feel the locals plus the tourist industry which didn't make them rich, at least supplemented their meagre income. They looked to me like a contented people.

They love their church to a point where they would rather starve than have it torn down for any reason.

Éloïse

MeriJo
July 25, 2005 - 02:22 pm
So Sweyn was defeated because the inhabitants in London tore down the bridges across the Thames: Now, in my old age I learn of the history and lore behind that happy childhood game I used to play of "London Bridge is Falling Down."

In 1013, London Bridge was burned down by King Ethelred and his Norwegian ally Olaf Haraldsson in a bid to divide the invading forces of the Danish king Svein Haraldsson. The event was recorded in the Saga of Olaf Haraldson. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_is_falling_down

Alliemae
July 25, 2005 - 02:32 pm
Never having been in Italy I'll take your word on this. I in no way meant to speak demeaningly about Italy and Italians, my grandfather having been from Abruzzi and my grandmother from Naples.

On your same note, in applying it to Istanbul and the palaces, especially the oldest one, and the mosques..I could easily see that a revolution might also appear there if any of those holy places were torn down to feed anyone.

How interesting and rewarding to be meeting people who have experiences with other cultures. I am learning more everyday. Thank you MeriJo.

robert b. iadeluca
July 25, 2005 - 06:23 pm
Not seeing any reaction to Durant's text in Post #358, I will hold off further text until tomorrow.

Robby

marni0308
July 25, 2005 - 06:31 pm
Re: "Alexander II....blessed William's proposed invasion and sent him a consecrated banner and a ring conaining, within a diamond, a hair of St. Peter's head."

I wonder how many hairs from "St. Peter's head" the pope dispensed over the years. I think it's interesting to read about the religious relics that were dispensed or sold over the years.

Re: "Hildebrand was glad to set a precedent for the papal disposition of thrones and deposition of kings."

I thought this was so interesting! It seems the popes were forever having a say in important secular governmental affairs such as this and threatening excommunication. The popes wielded such power!

MeriJo
July 25, 2005 - 08:16 pm
AllieMae:

Never am I offended! My mom was from Tuscany and my father was from Basilicata. If you ever get a chance, do take a trip to Italy. Abruzzi is on the Adriatic coast in the southern part of Italy and it can get hot so plan your trip for any other month but August - April, May and June are good months.

You'll be so happy.

Not being able to travel any more, I advise anyone who has a desire to travel to do so as soon as possible. It is so worthwhile!

Traude S
July 25, 2005 - 09:13 pm
ROBBY, I'm not sure what Durant meant with "Norman Conquest before William". It may be another of his bon mot statements.

In this connection I'd like to offer the following link and apologize if it is a duplicate effort.


http://www.answers.com/topic/norman-architecture

Sunknow
July 25, 2005 - 09:35 pm
Re: Post #358.

Today it is very difficult understand why the English people, or people of any country other than Italy, would allow themselves to be "conquered" or dictated to by a Roman Pope.....why would they care if Harold was excommunicated? And to be told who would be their King? Were they so devout? Or just powerless.

As for blessing the proposed invasion and sending William a "ring containing, within a diamond, a hair of St. Peter's head. I have my thoughts about that, too.

As a very young girl, one of my grandmothers (from the Catholic side of the family) gave me a Rosary made of strange, wrinkled beads or berries. The cross contained a sliver of wood....according to my grandmother, wood from the original cross where Christ died.

I wondered, even as a child, how many slivers would one cross make? My grandmother believed it, I was too polite and respectful, to question her word. I still have that Rosary somewhere packed away, a treasured keepsake....and I am not even a Catholic.

Sun

Justin
July 25, 2005 - 10:56 pm
Traude: Try my 345 for an approach to " Norman conquest before William." So much of royal Briton was Norman before the invasion that William thought he was to be the next English king. One may invade by marriage and influence long before "boots are on the ground."

Justin
July 25, 2005 - 11:15 pm
Sun: I also have a rosary from Jerusalem with a sliver of the "true cross". Constantine's mama, Helen, brought it back from Jerusalem and spread parts of it around Europe. Some folks from the Crusades said they brought pieces of the thing back from that adventure. There is probably enough wood available to give us all a small piece.

Peter's hair is another relic that gets around. Remember, he also had a beard.

Mary's chemise is available at the Abbey Church of St. Denis. It was Abbot Suger who waved it in a storm in 1122 to enlist her protection for his new unsupported abbey walls. There is another set of undergarments belonging to Mary in the treasury of Chartres. I have actually seen these several times. I look at them and feel as a male intruder on private things.

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 03:03 am
"The sins of Harold's wild youth were now visited upon his benevolent maturity.

"His brother Tostig, long since exiled by the Witan, had not been recalld by Harold come to power. Tostig now allied himself with William, raised an army in the north, and persuaded King Harald Hardrada of Norway to join him by promising him the English throne.

"In September, 1066, as William's armada of 1400 vessels sailed from Normandy, Tostig and Hardrada invaded Northunberland. York surrendered to them and Hardrada was there crowned King of England. Harold rushed up with what troops he had and defeated the northern invaders at Stamford Bridge (September 25). In that battle Rostig and Hardrada died.

"Harold moved south with a diminished force far too small to pit against William's host and every adviser bade him to wait. But William was burning and harrowing southern England and Harold felt bound to defend the soil that he once had ravaged but now loved. At Senlac, near Hastings, the two armies met (October 14) and fought for nine hours.

"Harold, his eye pierced by an arrow, fell blinded with blood and was dismembered by Norman knights. One cut off his head, another a leg, another scattered Harold's entrails over the field. When the English saw their captain fallen, they fled. So great were the butchery and chaos that the monks who were later commissioned to find Harold's body could not discover him until they led to the scene Edith Swansneck who had been his mistress. She identified her lover's mutiliated body and the fragments were buried in the church at Waltham tht he had built.

"On Christmas Day, 1066, William I was crowned King of England."

So much for the thinking in previous postings that the English had been barbaric but not the French. The Normans (knights no less) did their share of mutilation.

Any final thoughts as we leave England?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 03:09 am
Read about the BATTLE OF STAMFORD BRIDGE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 03:16 am
An excellent description of the BATTLE OF HASTINGS with explanatory photos of the terrain.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 03:28 am
WALES

325-1066

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 03:37 am
"Wales had been won for Rome by Frontinus and Agricola A.D. 78.

"When the Romans retired from Britain, Wales resumed its freedom and suffered its own kings.

"In the fifth century western Wales was occupied by Irish settlers. Later Wales received thousands of Britons fleeing from the Anglo-Saxon conquerors of their island. The Anglo-Saxons stopped at the Welsh barrier and called the unsubdued people Wealhas -- 'foreigners.'

"The Irish and the Britons found in Wales a kindred Celtic stock and soon the three groups mingled as cymri -- 'fellow countrymen.' This became their national name and Cymru their name for their land.

"Like most Celtic peoples -- Bretons, Cornish, Irish, the Gaels of northern Scotland -- they based their social order almost wholly on the family and the clan and so jealously that they resented the state and looked with unappeasable distrust upon any individual or people of alien blood.

"Their clan spirit was balanced by uncalculating hospitality, their indiscipline by bravery, their hard life and climate by music and song and loyal friendship, their poverty by an imaginative sentiment that made every girl a princess and every second man a king."

Your comments, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 03:54 am
An excellent article about WALES AND THE WELSH.

Robby

MeriJo
July 26, 2005 - 11:14 am
Sunknow:

Back in medieval times the hierarchy of the Church had developed a temporal authority (had armies, and lands) along with a spiritual authority. In times such as those, the Church attracted people of learning and desirous of education, and preserving that education for future generations. The kings and other royals looked to the Church for guidance and authority. The world was in a state of development of the most rapid order, and we have seen here the many ways that the Church behaved and assisted or impeded the process of societal evolution.

These hierarchical and even humbler religious such as Venerable Bede were limited in their understanding of the world and all that was in it, but using this knowledge did move civilization along.

Among Church prelates and people were all sorts of characters - very saintly and good and very mischievous and cruel. These people all interacted then because the Church and Royalty were the only two entities in a position to organize society. Growth took place but gradually.

Italy is not inclined any more than any other country to be "ruled" by a Pope. The Papal States did cease to exist in 1929 when the Lateran Treaty was signed. The Vatican is the only acreage governed by the Pope today.

France is known as the "Daughter of the Church" and produced quite a number of religious scholars and saints.

I have Italian origins and I recall from several conversations with my father, an immigrant, that in the early days there was nothing around for people to do except to work and do more work and pray, so the clergy in various little towns around Italy would organize festivals honoring different saints, or sacred events, so that the people could take a day off from work and socialize. There would be banquets with spits turning meat, roasting, primitive instruments - usually string instruments provided music, and people creative as they are developed dances and games in order to have a day of joy and recreation. These times also provided an opportunity for young people to meet, old friends to visit, men to show off their athletic skills and women to display their handicraft - Just a wonderful time.

I visited my father's village and it was like stepping back in time. His house's facade curved with the narrow street in front of it that also curved. It was only large enough for an ox-cart. Such an old village. Looked like an N. C. Wyeth illustration for a medieval story. It seemed white and very wind-swept - so clean. The road led to the piazza, and it was easy to imagine the many festivals it had seen through the centuries.

Éloïse De Pelteau
July 26, 2005 - 12:23 pm
MeriJo, so interesting. "I visited my father's village and it was like stepping back in time. His house's facade curved with the narrow street in front of it that also curved. It was only large enough for an ox-cart. Such an old village."

I have seen many small old towns in Switzerland where the streets are barely wider than an arm spread. The narrower it was, the better for protection, for warmth, for socializing and the equally small square, naturally besides a church, was meant not for car traffic, but for people to gather in. Musical groups play to small groups of mystanders. Unhurried and noiseless places.

marni0308
July 26, 2005 - 12:38 pm
Re: "Back in medieval times the hierarchy of the Church had developed a temporal authority (had armies, and lands) along with a spiritual authority."

I was wondering about this when I read Ironfire by David Ball, a novel about the Knights of Malta (Hospitallers of St. John of Jerusalem) who fought the Ottomans so bravely at the battle of Malta in 1565. It seemed that the Knights of Malta were a combination of soldier, corsair, medic, and monk. They took vows to be chaste. I wonder if this was typical at all for knights to take vows to be chaste.

marni0308
July 26, 2005 - 12:40 pm
Did this discussion already discuss the Celts? I heard that Celts were all over Europe as well as in the British Isles. I don't really know anything about them.

mabel1015j
July 26, 2005 - 12:48 pm
When i first read Robby's post of the Pope making the decision about who should be king, I wondered if he had another reason for choosing William, other than just a rational choice from the "evidence." What advantage might the Church have to have William on the throne?

Alliemae - I always have ambiguous feelings when i see these beautiful churches, palaces, victorian industrialists' homes, etc. They are a feast for the eyes and wonderful to dream about worshiping or living in, but I always think about the people who "paid" for them with their cheap labor, or in giving up the other benefits they may have gotten from that much money available to the society. I feel the same way when i hear about athletes and ceo's salaries today.

Lastly, in NJ, PBS's "Smart Travels" is showing "Bath and South Wales" at 8:00 tonight. You might want to look for it on your PBS schedule. I saw it before and it was quite good.......jean

mabel1015j
July 26, 2005 - 01:22 pm
Marni - I also had questions about the Celts and recognized that the group had obviously discussed them before i got here. The Encarta "Encyclopedia" on-line has a very good explanation of where they came from and where they were thru history. I don't know how to do the cutting and pasting of internet sites, but i'm sure that any encyclopedia that you can get to on line would give you the same info.

Also, for all of you, the Time Magazine of Dec 31, 1999, after naming Einstein the person of the millenium, does a brief summary of each century of the last millenium and does a nice summary of William and many others that we will be talking about,plus quirky items you may enjoy.....jean

Sunknow
July 26, 2005 - 01:33 pm
Merijo - Thank you for the trip back in time. We know that the Durants have taken us on an extended tour of the past, but it is fascinating to know how the past is visualized by individuals, and families that actually lived or visited in some of these places.

I lived in Germany for three years, and did visit several countries, but never made it to Greece, or Italy (not that I didn't try). I was fascinated by the architecture and interiors of buildings and Churches, and yes, the narrow, winding streets or pathways in some cases hardly seem to have changed through time.

My statement that TODAY it is hard to imagine.....well, you are correct to remind me that the Church back in the times we are reading about was likely the core of the entire community.

I loved the description of your father's house....."the house's facade curved with the narrow street in front of it"

Robby - about the Celtic people: "..... their hard life and climate by music and song and loyal friendship, their poverty by an imaginative sentiment that made every girl a princess and every second man a king."

I suspect that the harder life is for the young, the easier it is to dream. Here Durant weaves a lovely thought. But every second man? It makes you wonder, since so many Kings did not fare well, or last long.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 04:35 pm
As most participants have not had a chance to comment on Post 389 which gives Durant's remarks about Wales, I will hold off further text until tomorrow.

Robby

MeriJo
July 26, 2005 - 04:37 pm
Thank you all. I am so glad you enjoyed my post.

mabel015:

Except for the Victorian houses you mention, I think that as we move through this history we'll learn about the way the people felt about the churches they were building.

The Romans did introduce money into England and so there was an understanding of value in terms of coinage. And, there were several ways I understand in which the people were rewarded for their work.

One way, I was told was that their efforts were done to demonstrate their faith in God, and so there was no pay per se. I believe as time progressed there were other ways they were recompensed. It is important to remember that because of the times many people did not live very long. There were pestilences, bad hygiene and everything they needed had to be provided by their own labor. Therefore the building of these structures took many years. I think that many of the builders learned additional skills as they worked, and because of the beauty they created were truly rewarded as they watched details and designs appear.

robert b. iadeluca
July 26, 2005 - 04:42 pm
For those who missed earlier postings about the CELTIC TRIBES, this may be helpful.

Robby

3kings
July 26, 2005 - 05:29 pm
"Like most Celtic peoples -- Bretons, Cornish, Irish, the Gaels of northern Scotland -- they based their social order almost wholly on the family and the clan and so jealously that they resented the state and looked with unappeasable distrust upon any individual or people of alien blood." ( Durant)

It would seem that the present day Welsh are rather different. ( or at least those I know of )

In NZ the Welsh and Irish who have settled here seem to be much more socially motivated than the above remarks would lead one to expect. The Labour party, ( Socialist ) had its origins, and strongest roots among the miners of the west coast.

It is my impression that things were similar in Australia. Perhaps the immigrants to Australasia from Wales and Ireland were different to the countrymen they left behind ? ++ Trevor

MeriJo
July 26, 2005 - 08:47 pm
About post #333:

There seems to have been a flurry of activity among the kings then to acquire and hold and increase lands for themselves according to this post. No sooner than Godwin made the best acquisitions and became even more powerful than his king than he was ousted and the flurry began all over again.

Not all of England and Wales were together yet under one rule, so this period points out a kind of game of "keep away" that went on for years until there was an agreement to which lands were to be whose. It's a wonder anything else was done with all the wars going on.

I think it took awhile for barbaric practices to diminish. Cruelty has always been close to the surface in a riled up authoritative figure. We see them today still in many settings and countries.

Alliemae
July 26, 2005 - 09:10 pm
I have read the links about Wales (#'s 387, 388, 389, 390 and was especially pleased with #390, Wales and the Welsh, the details of which filled a large void in my knowledge of Wales. I know I will refer to it again and again. As always I appreciate having the postings of other group members to read as they clarify much to me. Now to 'CELTIC TRIBES' which I think came before I joined the discussion group so am very happy that it was brought up again.

marni0308
July 26, 2005 - 09:44 pm
Re: "Like most Celtic peoples -- Bretons, Cornish, Irish, the Gaels of northern Scotland -- they based their social order almost wholly on the family and the clan and so jealously that they resented the state and looked with unappeasable distrust upon any individual or people of alien blood." ( Durant)

I think some of the traditions of the clan were carried to the present day. I am part Scottish and my father proudly sent me information on our clan's tartan, crest, and motto. My friend is of Irish descent and her family has a tartan similar to mine. Weren't some of the family feuds in Appalachian America based on clan traditions brought over from the British Isles (such as McCoys vs Hatfields)?

The Celtic clan social order reminds me of the families in Italian city-states (think of Romeo and Juliet). Is there a relationship? Why would some cultures evolve around the clan structure whereas others would not?

marni0308
July 26, 2005 - 09:50 pm
Mabel: Thanks for info about Encarta. I'll check it out.

Marni

Justin
July 26, 2005 - 11:21 pm
The Celts appear in Wales about the time of the Golden Age in Greece, but there were people living in Wales as far back as 1000BCE. It was not, however, until the Romans appeared in Briton that written material became available about the Wales countryside and its people. Tacitus in the Annals tells us about them. He says they were Druids and he was alarmed by their antics. When the Saxons came to Britain they stopped at the Welch border but they also pushed British Celts up into Wales. Their language is of Celtic origin.

Through many centuries these people were devout, steadfast Roman Catholics but the Reformation changed them slowly. Today, only 5% of the population is Roman Catholic while the bulk of the people profess a version of Calvinism called Prebyterianism.

Coal and copper mining are the main occupations in Wales. It has been thus for a couple of millennia.

I once read a pleasant tale of two women in Wales who lived together. They were a pair of old maids and no one cared whether they were lesbians or not. It is a very charming tale of their lives together. It think it is called the "Ladies of Llangollian."

3kings
July 27, 2005 - 01:34 am
ROBBY I have belatedly read your link to the battle of Hastings ( #387 ). How strange that the battle should be fought at a place called Battle. Presumably the locality was named as such before 1066. I think it would be quite interesting to have the event ever-after referred to as the Battle of Battle. It has an air of alliteration about it!

I am puzzled, too, by the claim in the Doomsday Book, ( published, if that's the word, in 1086.) giving the value of the area in 1066 as being 48 English pounds, but immediately after the battle, (still in 1066) it had fallen to 30 pounds. I wonder why ?

For that matter, why did the Doomsday Book give values as at 1066, and not current values for 1086, when the book was written ? An early example of retro-active tax department accounting? ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:12 am
"Only next to kings stood the bards. They were the soothsayers, historians, and royal counselors, as well as the poets, of their people.

"Two among them left enduring names. Taliesin and Aneurin, both of the sixth century. There were hundreds more. The tales they spun crossed the Channel to Brittany to reach polished form in France.

"The bards constituted a poetic clerical caste. No one was admitted to their order except after strict training in the lore of their race. The candidate for admission was called a mabinog. The material he studied was mabinogi, hence the name Mabinogion for such of their tales as have survived. In their present form they are not older than the fourteenth century, but probably they go back to this period when Christianity had not taken Wales.

"They are primitively simple, paganly animistic and weird with strange animals and marvelous events -- overcast with a somber certainty of exile, defeat, and death, yet in a mood of gentleness all the world away from the lust and violence of Icelandic Eddas, Norse sagas, and the Nibelungenlied.

"In the loneliness of Welsh mountains, there grew a romantic literature of devotion to the nation, to woman, and later to Mary and Jesus that shared in begetting chivalry and those wondrous tales of Arthur and his valorous-amorous knights sworn to 'break the heathen and uphold the Christ.'

Beautiful items here. Your thoughts, please?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:17 am
A poem about Edward, King of England, and the BARDS OF WALES written in both English and Welsh.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:21 am
Sit back and read a WELSH FAIRY STORY.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:26 am
A WELSH TALE to be read for your pleasure.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:33 am
Just who were or are these BARDS?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:39 am
A brief bio of TALEISIN.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:45 am
An example of MABINOGION. Allow time for the color to change for easier reading.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
July 27, 2005 - 03:52 am
Here are numerous photos of the breathtaking beauty of WELSH MOUNTAINS AND LAKES where the Bards wove their magic. Click onto the photos to enlarge.

Robby

Alliemae
July 27, 2005 - 06:07 am
I am not an eloquent woman. Having said that, I must say I am left breathless, nearly speechless, by the lyrical beauty of this passage about the bards! I have read and re-read it and will read it again.

And I look forward now to reading and responding to the links on your other postings Robby...#'s 409 through 415, but needed to express my impression of #408. Oh, how I am loving the Welsh.

Robby you are such a very insightful and resourceful leader as you post at the 'witching hour'...and I thank you!!

I'll be back, I'm sure, after I've read and re-read these additional postings...

Alliemae
July 27, 2005 - 06:19 am
I am still waiting to receive my book and the more excerpts I am reading, the more excited I am about having this book BACK in my hands. Years...no, decades...ago, I had the 11 volume set. I was raising my four children on my own at that time, holding down two and sometimes three jobs, and studying Spanish and Italian (yes at the same time...talk about confusion!!) at a local evening school two evenings a week, just to remind me that there was still a 'me' inside...

Finally gave the books to a book trader during one of my moves..I regret few things in my life but do regret I don't still have this series now that I have found SeniorNet Book Discussions!

Alliemae
July 27, 2005 - 08:43 am
I must admit I felt a willing captive in the reading of this potent poem. Huzzahs for all those 500 Bards (lore or not)!!!

I think the timing of the writing of this poem is at least ironic, at best...telling!

I now will add Arany Janos to my list of poets to explore further.

And...I learned a new word: 'hauberks'*

  • The hauberk is essentially a long shirt of mail or leather (weighing about 14 kg for the mail). There are slits in the front and back below the waist (so the wearer could straddle a horse and ride), and it almost always had sleeves. The sleeves would extend to mid-way down the forearm. These shirts were put on over the head. These were constructed from overlapping metal scales riveted to a leather or cloth garment.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauberk
  • JoanK
    July 27, 2005 - 10:35 am
    I couldn't get into the "Bards of Wales" site.

    But here is a story from "The Book of Taleisin"

    BOOK OF TALEISIN

    JoanK
    July 27, 2005 - 10:43 am
    I tried again and got it -- don't know what went wrong the first time. What a powerful poem!

    marni0308
    July 27, 2005 - 10:55 am
    Re: "They are primitively simple, paganly animistic and weird with strange animals and marvelous events..."

    There is a dragon on a number of Welsh items I inherited from my grandmother. Can anyone tell me what the Welsh dragon is all about?

    My Welsh grandmother's last name was Rees. In the 1970's my aunt communicated with some of our Rees relatives in Wales and went over to visit them. We were thrilled when we found out that the Welsh actress, Angharad Rees, who starred as Demelza in the Masterpiece Theater series ‘Poldark,' was our cousin. Angharad came over to America to visit and attend my cousin's wedding.

    The Welsh created beautiful folk songs and hymns. I was surprised to find that some of my favorite songs were Welsh - such as the rousing "Men of Harlech" (sung in the movie "Zulu"), "All Through the Night," "The Blackbird," "The Ash Grove." The Welsh lullaby "Suo Gan" was sung so beautifully by the boy's choir in the film "Empire of the Sun."

    Here's a link to see the words of the lullaby "Suo Gan" in English and in Welsh and to hear the music.

    http://www.contemplator.com/tunebook/wales/suogan.htm

    Here's a link to the lyrics, story and music of "Men of Harlech."

    http://www.castlewales.com/menhar.html

    Here's a much more rousing version. Scroll down to where it says, "View the song lyrics..." and click on the word "Listen."

    http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/myths/myths.htm

    Here is music to the Welsh national anthem:

    http://www.pontyberem.com/anthem.htm

    Here are the words to the Welsh national anthem, along with a picture of the Welsh dragon:

    http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Functions/anthem.html

    Marni

    prysm
    July 27, 2005 - 04:29 pm
    Hi Folks,

    Tomorrow I am going to the UNC Hospital to have a cast put on my leg. Hopefully within a day after this is done I will have less pain. I hope so. It's been a rough go.

    Joan, it was lovely to talk with you this afternoon. Thank you for calling me.

    I'll be back as soon as I can get back to my computer, which is only 15 feet away but might as well be on Mars.

    FOMB Mal

    3kings
    July 27, 2005 - 06:10 pm
    Robby It is not of great importance, but in your #409 you have linked to a Hungarian poet (Arany Janos). He wrote the poem, I believe, on the visit of the Austrian Emperor to Hungary, when both countries were united in the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

    Though the setting of the poem is Wales, and is inspired by a Welsh legend, the language is Hungarian, not Welsh. Your #409 suggested it was in Welsh. ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 07:28 pm
    Sorry, Trevor. Being fluent in both Hungarian and Welsh, I sometimes subsconsciously mix them up.

    Allie, regarding your getting rid of your 11-volume Durant set -- About 30 years ago I obtained the entire set for $10 as a bonus by joining a book club and then quitting it. All these years the set has rested in my home library (which at one time was about 4000 books - any where from hard cover to cheap paperbacks) and I never got around to reading them. It was always "one of these days."

    When I found out about and entered Senior Net and the B&L section, I said:-"Yes, this is what I have been waiting for! I can read them and I don't have to read them alone." So now you can call me the Discussion Leader if you wish, but actually I am reading every single sentence in every volume for my own personal selfish pleasure and have the joy of all you folks reading and discussing along with me.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 07:45 pm
    "Christianity came to Wales in the sixth century and soon thereafter opened schools in the monasteries and cathedrals.

    "The learned Bishop Asser who served King Alfred as secretary and biographer came from the town and cathedral of St. David's in Pembrokeshire. These Christian shrines and settlements bore the brunt of pirate attacks from Normandy until King Rhodri the Great (844-78) drove them off and gave the island a vigorous dynasty. King Hywel the Good (910-50) united all Wales and provided it with a uniform code of laws.

    "Gruffydd ap Llywelyn (1039-63) was too successful. When he defeated Mercia, the nearest of the English counties, Harold, the future king of England, proclaimed a war of preventive defense and conquered Wales for Britain (1063)."

    Any final thoughts as we leave Wales?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 07:48 pm
    A brief bio of BISHOP ASSER.

    Robby

    JoanK
    July 27, 2005 - 08:05 pm
    I really like the "feel" of the Welsh stories posted here. They have a gentle humor unusual in such stories.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 08:07 pm
    Here is a tour of PEMBROKESHIRE AND ST. DAVID'S.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 08:16 pm
    Did you know that Rhodri the Great was the first PRINCE OF WALES?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 08:22 pm
    All you ever wanted to know about the United Kingdom including the origin of the title of PRINCE OF WALES.

    Robby

    Traude S
    July 27, 2005 - 08:27 pm
    Re final words about Wales : gratitude for the extraordinary links provided. What riches they contain!

    JUSTIN, ## 345 and 383 and, conquests, you are absolutely right.

    Many conquests in history were made through marriage and influence, the Habsburgs became famous for successfully adopting that method, most notably the Empress Maria Theresa.
    Of her sixteen children, eleven were girls. Six daughters survived infancy and were married off to reigning princes of the era. The youngest was the unfortunate Marie Antoinette.

    P.S. That's what they said about the Habsburgs,

    "Bella gerant alii, tu felix Austria, nube" ,
    freely translated = "Let others make war, you happy Austria, marry!"

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 08:36 pm
    Read about WELSH SINGING AND SONG.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 27, 2005 - 08:57 pm
    Do you know this WELSHMAN?

    Robby

    marni0308
    July 27, 2005 - 09:40 pm
    No wonder my sister and I used to sing together all the time!! And my dad used to sing when he came home from work. He'd come out in the kitchen and sing and tap dance around the room at the same time!!

    I am enjoying these Wales links so much!! Thanks Robbie!! I learned that St. David is the patron saint of Wales and a Welsh version of the name David is Taffy. I had to send that info to my brother, David. I'll have to start calling him Taffy.

    I recognized Tom Jones. But here's my current favorite Welshman, handsome Ioan Gruffudd, who starred as Horatio Hornblower in the TV series and as Lancelot in the recent movie "King Arthur."

    http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0344435/

    I was surprised to read the following on one of the Welsh history links: "Between 1070 and 1300, about 80 towns were established in Wales, a surprising high number bearing in mind that Wales' urban potential was not great. They were built under the shadow of the major castles in order to satisfy the garrison's needs and in order to create centres from which the local economy could be controlled." I didn't know that towns were established to meet garrison's needs for castles etc. I was thinking it was the other way around - that towns grew up, perhaps because they developed as trading centers or something, and castles were then built by some lord there, perhaps, and the castle helped to protect the town. Now that I think about it, I guess castles were built as fortresses to protect territory, not necessarily towns.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    July 28, 2005 - 01:31 am
    Or this Welshman? RICHARD BURTON

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 03:13 am
    Irish Civilization

    461-1066

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 03:33 am
    "At the death of St. Patrick, and untl the eleventh century, Ireland was divided into seven kingdoms -- three in Ulster, the others Connaught, Leinster, Munster, Meath.

    "Normally these kingdoms fought among themselves for lack of transport to widen spheres of strife.

    "From the third century onward we hear of Irish raids and settlements on west British coasts. The chroniclers call these raiders Scots -- apparently a Celtic word for wanderers. Throughout this period 'Scot' means Irishman.

    "War wss endemic. Until 590 the women, until 804 the monks and priests, were required to fight alongside more ordinary warriors. A code of law, essentially similar to the 'barbarian' codes of the Continent was administered by brehons -- highly trained lawyer judges who, as early as the fourth century, taught law schools and wrote legal treatises in the Gaelic tongue.

    "Ireland, like Scotland, missed conquest by Rome and therefore missed the boon of Roman law and orderly government. Law never quite succeeded in replacing vengeance with judgment or passion with discipline.

    "Government remained basically tribal and only at moments achievd a national unity and scope.

    "The unit of society and economy was the family.

    "Several families made a sept, several septs a clan, several clans a tribe. All membes of a tribe were supposedly descended from a common ancestor. In the tenth century many families prefixed Ui or O' (grandson) to a tribal name to indicate their descent. So the O'Neils claimed descent from Niall Glundubh, King of Ireland in 916. Many others assumed their father's name, merely prefixing Mac -- i.e. son.

    "Most of the land in the seventh century was owned in common by clans or septs. Private property was limited to household goods but by the tenth century individual ownership had spread. Soon there was a small aristocracy holding large estates, a numerous class of free peasants, a small class of renters, a still smaller class of slaves.

    "Materially and politically the Irish in the three centuries after the coming of Christianity (461-750) were more backward then the English. Culturally they were probably the most advanced of all the peoples north of the Pyrenees and the Alps."

    Materially and politically backward but culturally advanced. Very interesting.

    Any comments?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 03:47 am
    Some comments about ANCIENT IRELAND.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 03:53 am
    What is your opinion of the BREHON LAWS?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 03:59 am
    Info about the SEPTS OF IRELAND.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:03 am
    Here are some ANCIENT GAELIC NAMES. Is your extended family name here?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:13 am
    Here is a long very detailed HISTORY OF IRELAND. As always, consider the source.

    Robby

    Alliemae
    July 28, 2005 - 06:01 am
    This is so timely after just having heard the announcement regarding the IRA on the news. Will be thrilled to learn the history of Ireland. Such a musical, mystical people.

    But oh, I shall miss Wales...really and truly.

    Marni I so enjoyed your post, and would love to be a fly on the wall when you call your brother David 'Taffy'! What lovely and musical family memories you have.

    My parents were a mix of English and Italian and the only dance my dad could do was the polka! So we'd come home from Sunday school and find my mom, with big spoon in one hand stirring the spagetti sauce, dancing around the kitchen table with my dad...doing the polka! Ah...childhood memories are the BEST!

    Alliemae
    July 28, 2005 - 06:18 am
    It's amazing to me how many small details I have neglected to question and explore in the course of my years.

    I FINALLY know why so many Irish names are prefaced with the O' !!

    Thank you Robby...and thank you SeniorNet Books Discussions!!

    Be back later...going back to my reading...

    Alliemae
    July 28, 2005 - 06:37 am
    Robby...that's how I got my SOC too...as bonus for joining a book club!!

    Justin
    July 28, 2005 - 01:46 pm
    It looks to me as though the Brehon Laws of old Ireland were considered barbaric by the British because the laws gave a woman a degree of equality with a man. Surprisingly, Brehon laws were ended by Queen Elizabeth, a woman. The American Equal Rights Act would have restored some equality to women in the US but the Act failed because male dominated state legislators failed to ratify the measure. Some day,ladies, the phrase "all men are created equal" will mean "all men and women" are created equal."

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 03:45 pm
    "The strange imbalance of materially and politically backward vs culturally advanced had many sources -- the influx of Gallic and British scholars fleeing from the Germanic invasions of the fifth century, the growth of commercial contacts with Britain and Gaul, and the exemption of Ireland, before the ninth century, from foreign attack.

    "Monks and priests and nuns opened schools of every scope and degree. One at Clonard, established in 520, had 3000 students (if we may believe patriotic historians). There were others at Clonmacnois (544), Clonfert (550), and Bangor (560).

    "Several gave a twelve year course leading to the doctorate in philosophy and including Biblical studies, theology, the Latin and Greek classics, Gaelic grammar and literature, mathematics and astronomy, history and music, medicine and law. Poor scholars whose parents could not support them were maintained by public funds for most students were preparing for the priesthood and the Irish made every sacrifice to further that vocation. These schools continued the study of Greek long after knowledge of that language had almost disappeared from the other countries of Western Europe.

    "Alcuin studied at Clonmacnois. In Ireland John Scotus Erigena learned the Greek that made him the marvel of the court of Charles the Bald in France.

    "The mood and literature of the age favored legend and romance.

    "Here and there some minds turned to science, like the astronomer Dungal, or the geometer Fergil, who taught the sphericity of the earth.

    "About 825 the geographer Dieuil reported the discovery of Iceland by Irish monks in 795, and exemplified the midnight day of the Irish summer by noting that one could then find light enough to pick the fleas from his shirt.

    "Grammarians were numerous, if only because Irish prosody was the most complicated of its time. Poets abounded and held high state in society. Usually they combined the functions of teacher, lawyer, poet, and historian. Grouped in bardic schools around some leading poet, they inherited many of the powers and prerogatives of the pre-Christian Druid priets. Such bardic schools flourished without a break from the sixth to the seventeenth century, usually supported by grants of land from Church or state.

    "The tenth century had four nationally known poets:-Flann MacLonain, Kenneth O'Hartigan, Eochaid O'Flainn, and that MacLiag whom King Brian Boru made archollamh, or poet laureate."

    Schools all over the place!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 03:56 pm
    St. Finnian and CLONARD.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:03 pm
    I had forgotten to bring up a MAP OF WALES.

    Note St. David's in the lower left corner.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:08 pm
    And now here is a PHYSICAL MAP AND LIST OF ANCIENT KINGDOMS of Ireland.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:14 pm
    And a MAP OF IRELAND WITH CITIES.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:18 pm
    Here is a brief bio of ASTRONOMER DUNGAL.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:24 pm
    Info about GEOGRAPHER DICUIL.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:30 pm
    Read the paragraph titled 9th Century regarding the Irish monk and ICELAND.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:36 pm
    Read about the PRE-CHRISTIAN DRUID PRIESTS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 28, 2005 - 04:49 pm
    Here is the story of the great KING BRIAN BORU and how he united the tribes. Here also is the poem written about him by his secretary MacLiag.

    Allow time for downloading and click onto the arrow next to the word YAHOO to widen the text.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    July 28, 2005 - 08:53 pm
    Schools all over the place!

    Robby your comment is very accurate. Thomas Cahill is one historian who described this educational growth and appeal in his book, "How The Irish Saved Civilization". This is how. Durant may be wondering at the patriotic historians who noted this, but Cahill has documented the times in a very readable book.

    IVT
    July 29, 2005 - 12:42 pm
    But I am writing an article for American Express Horizons magazine that talks, in part, about how seniors might use the Internet to meet fellow-seniors with similar interests. These discussion forums seem to be quite lively, and I wondered if anyone participating would be willing to answer a few general questions via email about their experience using SeniorNet and any other similar online communities. My name is Ian, and you can reach my at the email address in my profile, which is vanrajah@yahoo.com. Again, sorry to be off topic, but thanks for your patience.

    Justin
    July 29, 2005 - 04:51 pm
    Scotland and Ireland missed the benefits of Roman conquest. Hadrian's wall stopped short of Scotland and the Irish Sea kept Julius and Hadrian from reaching these lands. It is for this reason the Irish and the Scots ( who bear the same name: Scot), are the real barbarians.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 29, 2005 - 04:51 pm
    Durant continues with Ireland.

    "In this age the sagas of Ireland took literary form.

    "Much of their material antedated Patrick but had been transmitted orally. Now it was put into a running mixture of rhythmic prose and ballad verse.

    "Although it has reached us only in manuscripts later than the eleventh century, it is the poets of this period who made it literature. One cycle of sagas commemorated the mythical ancestors of the Irish people.

    "A 'Fenian' or 'Ossianic' cycle recounted in stirring stanzas the adventures of the legendary hero Finn MacCumhail and his descendants the Fianna or Fenians. Most of these poems were ascribed by tradition to Finn's son Ossian who, we are informed, lived 300 years and died in St. Patrick's time after giving the saint a piece of his pagan mind.

    "An 'Heroic' cycle centered around the old Irish king Cuchilain who encounters war and love in a hundred lusty scenes.

    "The finest saga of this series told the story of Deirdre, daughter of Felim, King Conor's leading bard. At her birth a Druid priest prophesies that she will bring many sorrows to her land of Ulster. The people cry out 'Let her be slain' but King Conor protects her, rears her, and plans to marry her. Day by day she grows in loveliness.

    "One morning she sees the handsome Naoise playing ball with other youths. She retrieves a misthrown ball and hands it to him and 'he pressed my hand joyously.' The incident touches off her ripe emotions and she begs her handmaid, 'O gentle nurse, if you wish me to live, take a message to him and tell him to come and talk with me secretly tonight.' Naoise comes and drinks in her beauty to intoxication.

    "On the following night he and his two browthers, Ainnle and Ardan, take the willing Deirdre out of the palace and across the sea to Scotland. A Scotch king falls in love with her and the brothers hide her in the highlands. After some time King Conor sends a message. He will forgive them if they will come back to Erin.

    "Naoise, longing for his native soil and youthful haunts, consents, although Deirdre warms him and foretells treachery. After reaching Ireland they are attacked by Conor's soldiers. The brothers, fight bravely but are all killed.

    "Deirdre, insane with grief, flings herself upon the ground, drinks the blood of her dead lover and sings a strange dirge.

    "The oldest version of 'Deirdre of the Sorrows' ends with a powerful simplicity:-'There was a large rock near. She hurled her head at the stone so that she broke her skull and was dead.'

    "Poetry and music were near allied in Ireland as elsewhere in medieval life. Girls sang as they wove or spun or milked the cow. Men sang as they plowed the field or marched to war. Missionaries strummed the harp to muster an audience. The favorite instruments were the harp, usually of thirty strings, plucked with the finger tips, the timpan, an eight-string violin played with plectrum or bow and the bagpipe, slung from the shoulder and inflated by the breath.

    "Giraldus Cambrensis (1185) judged the Irish harpers the best he had ever heard -- a high tribute from music-loving Wales."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 29, 2005 - 04:59 pm
    SACRED MUSIC in pre-Christian times.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 29, 2005 - 05:03 pm
    The Irish -- THEIR STRUGGLE AND THEIR MUSIC.

    Robby

    Justin
    July 29, 2005 - 05:08 pm
    It is no wonder the Irish have such a fondness for Roman Catholicism. They have been taught by Priests, Nuns, and Monks since the sixth century. Fortunately, crowded in among the theology classes designed to train young men for the priesthood, they found room for Latin and Greek classics, literature, mathematics, history, music, medicine, and law. Scotus, and Alcuin were products of these schools. Fergis, the geometer, taught the sphericity of the earth.at this time.

    Remember the tales we were told about Columbus's sailors and others thinking the earth was flat. I, wrongly, at the time, thought flatness was a common concern. Such nonsense we sometimes receive in school.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 29, 2005 - 05:22 pm
    Read about MUSIC AND IRISH HISTORY. Scroll down to read about the Timpan.

    Robby

    marni0308
    July 29, 2005 - 07:25 pm
    Re: "Such a singer was Robert Burns in Scotland, while in Ireland Thomas Moore occupied the same loving place. When Moore sang :

    The harp that once through Tara's halls The soul of music shed, Now hangs as mute on Tara's walls As if that soul were fled,..."

    I didn't realize that Robert Burns was a singer! Is this Tara the same that the Tara in "Gone With the Wind" was supposed to be named after?

    To hear a lovely traditional Irish song "The Blackbird" played with Celtic harp, click on the link below to go to Amazon. Then click on either the "Download now" button or the "Listen to a 30-second" button. Then click on the "Open" button (wait a few seconds) to listen to a minute of the song.

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008R031/104-9960281-1910306?v=glance&n=468996

    history of the gaelic harp with great pictures:

    http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptorium/harps/harps.html

    MeriJo
    July 29, 2005 - 08:59 pm
    Robby, Your #460:

    Durant presents a colorful and emotional people. Creative musically and poetically and influenced by a desire for knowledge - I think they left quite a heritage to future generations. Their language is musical and lilting, and clear. Their island is indeed a beautiful place.

    Sunknow
    July 29, 2005 - 09:25 pm
    The links posted since the Irish topic appeared are wonderful.

    Yesterday I found the history of my ancestors...real history. It's easy to get sidetracked when you start following the links within the links. But one has to catch up. I will go back later.

    The music of the Irish brought the family history even closer in time.

    Sun

    Justin
    July 29, 2005 - 10:44 pm
    The Irish in the US came to us at a time when they were needed. They dug our coal,our oil fields, and built our railroads. My great grandfather came from the ould sod with a wife and son in the 1830's just in time to carry and lay stone in New York's Croton reservoir. He drove a horse car in Manhattan for the rest of his life. When he died he left a family of teachers, physicians, and lawyers for next generation. These shanty Irish who came to us were men of strong character with a sense of family and they left a valuable and lasting imprint on their new country which we have inherited.

    mabel1015j
    July 29, 2005 - 10:45 pm
    Are we sure we want to call the English "civilized" at this time? The English seem to me to be the least "civilized" of England, Ireland and Wales.

    When the English impose their law they take away the rights of 1/2 the population

    When the Irish and the Welsh are creating beautiful poetry and music, the English seem to be stone deaf. Has there EVER been any great ENGLISH music - until the Beatles. Are we sure they are English?

    Can't wait to see the responses i get on that......jean

    Sunknow
    July 29, 2005 - 11:25 pm
    Were the Beatles English? I don't think I'm qualified to debate that one. Maybe someone else...

    I am still fascinated with the Irish, and The Brehon Laws: "While the Brehon, or lawgiver, administered the law, the aggregate wisdom of nine leading representatives was necessary to originate a law or to abolish it." Could the idea of having nine Justices go back that far?

    "The nine needed for the making of a law were the chief, poet, historian, landowner, bishop, professor of literature, professor of law, a noble, and a lay vicar." I briefly considered: maybe we could try this idea, but discarded it immediately. A discussion of why not might get too political.

    "Impartiality is the salient characteristic of all the laws for all the ranks." A worthy aim, so far back in time. The details of enforcing the law were certainly worth reading.

    As for the link about Grace O'Malley. Wow, she must have really been something in her time.

    Sun

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    July 30, 2005 - 03:38 am
    Benjamin Britten, Andrew Lloyd Webber and the Beatles are the most well known. They have left us unforgettable music. Surprising isn't it that the Beatles were British, Sun but they are.

    Justin, you're Irish? Now that makes sense. I didn't want my children to only have French ancestors so I married a man who had 4 nationalities in his ancestry and 2 of my girls married Irish men, one of whom has a Scandinavian mother, so now there is a multiple mixture of blood in my descendents.

    "These shanty Irish who came to us were men of strong character with a sense of family and they left a valuable and lasting imprint on their new country which we have inherited." Yes, sir.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 30, 2005 - 04:37 am
    "The finest product of Irish art in this period was not the famous Ardagh chalice (c.1000) -- an astonishing union of 354 pieces of bronze, silver, gold, amber, crystal, cloisonne enamel, and glass.

    "It was the Book of Kells' -- the Four Gospels in vellum, done by Irish monks at Kells in Meath or on the isle of Iona in the ninth century and now the prize possession of Trinity College, Dublin.

    "Through the slow intercommunication of monks across frontiers, Byzantine and Islamic styles of illumination entered Ireland and for a moment reached perfection there. Here, as in Moslem miniatures, human or animal figures played an insignificant role. None was worth half an initial. The spirit of this art lay in taking a letter, or a single ornamental motive, out of a background of blue or gold and drawing it out with fanciful humor and delight until it almost covered the page with its labyrinthine web.

    "Nothing in Christian illuminated manuscripts surpasses the Book of Kells. Gerald of Wales, although always jealous of Ireland, called it the work of angels masquerading as men.

    "As this golden age of Ireland had been made possible by freedom from the Germanic invasions that threw the rest of Latin Europe back by many centuries, so it was ended by such Norse raids as in the ninth and tenth centuries annulled in France and England the progress so laboriously made by Charlemagne and Alfred. Perhaps the news had reached Norway and Denmark -- both still pagan -- that the Irish monasteries were rich in gold, silver, and jewelry and that the political fragmentation of Ireland forestalled united resistance.

    "An experimental raid came in 795, did little damage, but confirmed the rumor of this unguarded prey. In 823 greater invasions plundered Cork and Cloyne, destroyed the monasteries of Bangor and Moville, and massacred the clergy. Thereafter raids came almost every year. Sometimes brave little armies drove them back but they returned and sacked monasteries everywhere.

    "Bands of Norse invaders settled near the coast, founded Dublin, Limerick, and Waterford, and levied tribute from the northern half of the island. Their King Thorgest made St. Patrick's Armagh his pagan capital and enthroned his heathen wife on the altar of St. Kieran's Curch of Clonmacnois. The Irish kings fought the invaders separately but at the same time they fought one another. Malachi, King of Meath, captured Thorgest and drowned him (845).

    "In 851 Olaf the White, a Norwegian prince, established the kingdom of Dublin which remained Norse until the twelfth century. An age of learning and poetry gave way to an era of ruthless war in which Christian as well as pagan soldiers pillaged and fired monasteries, destroyed ancient manuscipts and scattered the art of centuries.

    "Says an old Irish historian, 'Neither bard nor philosopher nor musician pursued his wonted profession in the land.'"

    So much of Ireland unknown -- to me at least -- e.g. Ireland under Norse rule for three centuries. This means, of course, that there is Scandinavian blood in many of the Irish.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 30, 2005 - 04:47 am
    Here is some beautiful artwork from the BOOK OF KELLS. Click onto the images to enlarge. Sit back and enjoy.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 30, 2005 - 05:01 am
    Here is a detailed history and explanation of the BOOK OF KELLS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 30, 2005 - 05:07 am
    Here is a well written piece about the PROGRESS OF ART IN IRELAND over the centuries.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 30, 2005 - 05:15 am
    Take a tour of CLONMACNOIS which was at one time the pagan capital of Ireland. Allow time for downloading. Scroll to the bottom for photos.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 30, 2005 - 06:20 am
    Here is an intriguing tale of the NORSE INVASION OF IRELAND.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 30, 2005 - 06:30 am
    More about the VIKING INFLUENCE ON IRELAND.

    Robby

    Alliemae
    July 30, 2005 - 11:35 am
    With Clyn's annals of Ireland possibly being the earliest compiled by an inhabitant of Ireland (starting about 12th century) does that mean St. Patrick was a Scotsman?

    Also, in reading the histories this passage from "The Moon and Sixpence" (W. Somerset Maugham) came to mind:

    "The faculty for myth is innate in the human race. It seizes with avidity upon any incidents, surprising or mysterious,...and invents a legend to which it then attaches a fanatical belief. It is the protest of romance against the commonplace of life."

    Again, regarding St. Patrick, with the accounts of his service, conversions and miracles, does anyone know why he was 'de-sainted' in recent decades?

    I must admit to my ignorance of the fact that St. Patrick went that far back in history. I guess because I learned about him when I was a kid and because as a kid there is something infinitely brave about someone who is not afraid of snakes, I just thought of him as rather a 'contemporary'.

    Alliemae
    July 30, 2005 - 12:14 pm
    I apologize for staying 'out of Ireland' for a while. I think I was grieving over our moving on from the Welsh. I needn't have worried...

    Robby, re: #437 and #439

    Materially and politically vs. Culturally...you ask why they were ahead culturally. I cannot see that a society with minds that can create the Brehon Laws would not be ahead culturally. These laws really impressed me. I won't say, " From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," but preferably paraphrase thusly, 'From those to whom much has been given, much will be required.' And, of course, their attitudes in Ireland about women were unexpected by me at such an early time in our history.

    MeriJo
    July 30, 2005 - 01:02 pm
    If anything, in our reading of these various countries during medieval times we see much already thought about and recorded so applicable in the development of civilization. As each new learning came into existence others followed.

    Justin
    July 30, 2005 - 02:04 pm
    Current American political philosophy seems adverse to your advice for those who have been given much. More and more everyday I see those who have been given much, given more. We have not learned much from the Irish experience with the Brehon laws. English law has taken over again. Here we are 1300 years later and still treating women as though they were brainless.

    MeriJo
    July 30, 2005 - 05:28 pm
    Gosh Justin:

    I was never treated as though I were brainless. Maybe, it was my own particular situation, but in Italy where my parents were from, my paternal grandmother was the only woman in the village that could read and write, and when you think of this time being in the mid 1800's as my father, the second child was born in 1889, and it was in Southern Italy in the interior - that is quite an example. There was much illiteracy in the South then.

    My mother in Tuscany told me that women were given much legal freedom being able to inherit and manage property. That is all I know about that, but growing up with these two images of women in earlier times gave me a sense of being a fully franchised citizen.

    I attended an all girl's secondary school and an all-women's college, and a frequent comment from such students and alumni is the feeling of being confident and an equal in the world and also an equal in business and the professions. There wasn't any diminution of abilities because of gender. In fact, even back when I was in college in the early forties, one of my professors had been an Oxford scholar - (I think I have mentioned this before), a professor of English and Literature, she was instrumental in inspiring me to appreciate and enjoy poetry.

    The feeling of equality has never left me, and it has served me in good stead especially after I was widowed in my early fifties.

    These are personal anecdotes, but may provide an idea that not all of us women feel as though we are second-class human beings.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 04:52 am
    "For a time the harassed country recovered the luxuries of peace.

    "In the eleventh century art and literature revived. The Book of Leinster and the Book of Hymns almost equaled the Book of Kells in splendor of illumination. Historians and scholars flourished in the monastic schools.

    "But the Irish spirit had not yet been tamed.The nation again divided into hostile kingdoms and spent its strength in civil war.

    "In 1172 a handful of adventurers from Wales and England found it a simple matter to conquer -- another matter to rule -- the 'Island of Doctors and Saints.'"

    The Irish spirit not tamed?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 04:55 am
    Description of the BOOK OF LEINSTER.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 04:58 am
    Text of the BOOK OF LEINSTER.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 05:02 am
    Scotland

    325-1066

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 05:08 am
    "Late in the fifth century a tribe of Gaelic Scotti from the north of Ireland migrated to southwestern Scotland and gave their name first to a part, then to all, of the picturesque peninsula north of the Tweed.

    "Three others peoples contested the possession of this ancient 'Caledonia' -- the Picts, a Celtic tribe, established above the Firth of Forth -- the Britons, refugees from the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Britain, settled between the River Derwent and the Firth of Clyde -- and the Angles or English between the River Tyne and the Firth of Forth

    "From all these the Scottish nation was formed. English in speech, Christian in religion, as fiery as the Irish, as practical as the English, as subtle and imaginative as any Celt."

    Any Scots here?

    Robby

    Bubble
    July 31, 2005 - 05:17 am
    From what one reads of Irish or Scottish spirits, they cannot be tamed or conquered. Is it from living on a island with that kind of weather which makes them that fierce and stubborn? Tropical islands make for a more nonchalant way of life apparently.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 05:20 am
    Here is an extremely interesting MAP OF SCOTLAND showing the location of the various clans. Allow time for downloading.

    Robby

    Bubble
    July 31, 2005 - 05:25 am
    Thank you Robby, I always wondered about clans names and where they lived, now to see their tartans as well! I never realized Scotland would have that many separate islands.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 05:44 am
    Clicking on to the various sections of this MAP will bring up numerous cities, etc.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    July 31, 2005 - 06:14 am
    Wonderful memories of our trip to Scotland in the 70s with my teenage daughter who loved to climb the highest mountain The Ben Nevis. Loved the Scottish burr, bought a Black Watch skirt, we ate porridge for breakfast before boarding the train to Inverness. Took a bus tour of the Lock Ness Lake but didn't see the 'monster'. We visited Edinburgh castle and others I don't remember their names.

    We spent all of 5 days on the Isle of Skye listening to a bagpipe band practicing for the Highland Games, discus throwing and pole vaulting. We ate haggis and on Sunday all the stores were closed and we couldn't even find a restaurant open in Portree. Isabelle was in awe of that beautiful country. Boys flirting with her speaking a dialect we couldn't understand. To top it all it was during a drought, so it was sunny practically every day.

    Éloïse

    Alliemae
    July 31, 2005 - 06:44 am
    Re: weather makes them fierce and stubborn?

    I remember when I did a course on Ancient Civilizations it was said that the general climate and especially the behavior of their rivers, along with flooding patterns, drought, etc. directly affected the nature attributed to the God(s) of both the Egyptians and the Mesopotamians.

    The Tigres and Euphrates rivers were said to be unpredictable and therefore unreliable for planting and safety so the Mesopotamians had God(s) of the same nature and they believed that their God(s) punished, were incomprehensible, and were Gods of retribution.

    The Nile river was predictable in its flooding and waning states; the Egyptians were able to plan ahead, and so the Egyptians believed in rational God(s) and felt secure in Gods' blessings.

    Alliemae
    July 31, 2005 - 06:51 am
    "The Irish spirit not tamed?"

    "But the Irish spirit had not yet been tamed.The nation again divided into hostile kingdoms and spent its strength in civil war."

    It would seem that perhaps the Irish spirit may never be tamed, nor their propensity toward Civil Wars...but since the news about the change of policy in the IRA, one would hope that that wonderful Irish spirit would be even further channeled into more creative uses.

    What is amazing to me is that amid all their strife, the Irish still never lost track of their wonderful, magical souls and spirits as well as their self-expression in so many levels!

    Alliemae
    July 31, 2005 - 07:03 am
    Eloise, before I even begin my reading, I MUST ask you, how did you and your daughter find the haggis? I have always wanted to taste it but don't know if I'll ever get to Scotland now...Allie

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 07:11 am
    Here is a photo of the FIRTH OF FORTH. This is where my troop ship landed in 1944 before I moved onto England and then on to France.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 07:18 am
    Just what is a FIRTH?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 07:25 am
    More photos of FIRTH OF FORTH AND NEARBY AREA.

    Robby

    Alliemae
    July 31, 2005 - 07:33 am
    Hi there, checked out both maps but didn't see any tartans and would like to...can either of you help me? Thanks, Allie

    Bubble
    July 31, 2005 - 07:45 am
    http://www.pre-engineering.com/resources/forth/forthbridge.htm

    Scotland's Firth of Forth

    Bubble
    July 31, 2005 - 07:49 am
    Alliemae, neither did I see those tartans, I just commented that it would have been a nice addition to that map!

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 08:12 am
    Tartans? How about THIS?

    My father told me that in World War I, the Scottish soldiers were called the Ladies from Hell.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 08:17 am
    Some comments on the origin of the SCOTTISH KILT.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 08:20 am
    The Commander of the current shuttle mission is Eileen Collins. Irish heritage? The administrator of NASA is Michael Griffin. Irish heritage?

    Robby

    Alliemae
    July 31, 2005 - 08:25 am
    Computer extremely sluggish this morning...

    Is a Firth a Bay? Seems like it might be on checking out the maps.

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 08:34 am
    Allie:-Check out Post 498.

    Robby

    Scrawler
    July 31, 2005 - 09:48 am
    Patrick, patron saint of Ireland, was born in either Scotland, England, Wales, or France, but definitely not in Ireland. His given name was not Patrick but Maewyn or Succat.

    He was born about A.D. 385 in a small village near the mouth of the Severn River in what is now Wales. The region was part of the vast Roman Empire. He was by the locale of his birth Romano-Brion, by parentage a Roman Catholic; by his own later admission, until age sixteen he was covetous, licentious, materialistic, and generally heathen.

    When he was sixteen, a group of Irish marauders raided his village and carried off Patrick and hundreds of other young men adn women to be sold as slaves. For six years, he toiled as a sheepherder in County Antrim, Ireland, and it was during this period of slavery and solitude that he felt an increasing awareness of God.

    Escaping Ireland and slavery, he spent a dozen, studious years at a monastery in Gaul under the tutelage of St. Germain, bishop of Auxerre. Germain instilled in Patrick the desire to convert pagans to Christianity.

    As a priest, Patrick planed to return to pagan Ireland as its first bishop. But his monastery superiors felt that the position should be filled by someone with more tact and learning. They chose St. Palladius. Patrick imporuned for two years, until Palladius transferred to Scotland. By the time he was appointed Ireland's second bishop, he had already adopted the Christian name Patrick.

    His imposing presence, unaffected manner, and immensely winning personality aided him in winning converts, which aggravated Celtic Druid priests. A dozen times they arrested him, and each time he escaped. Evenually, he traveled throughout Ireland, founding monasteries, schools, and churches, which would in time transform the non-Christian country into the Church's proud "Isle of Saints."

    After thirty years of exemplary missionary work, Patrick retired to Saul in County Down, where he died on March 17, his commemorated "death day," in or about the year 461. He is believed to be buried in Downpatrick, and many pilgrims each year visit a local tombstone, carved with a "P," which may or may not mark his grave.

    Alliemae
    July 31, 2005 - 10:17 am
    Robby re: (#'s 507 & 498) Firth...oops, sorry...didn't realize it was a link so just based my answer on what I thought I saw on maps (which wasn't accurate anyway!)

    Scrawler re: (#508) Thanks so much for history of St. Patrick!!

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 10:24 am
    AllieMae:-I always make my links in CAPS and they are automatically underlined.

    Robby

    marni0308
    July 31, 2005 - 11:21 am
    This Scottish information has been fun! I'm part Scottish - Scottish family name is Ferguson. I found Fergusson on the map of Scotland in the Kirkgudbright area. I also found our tartan on the tartan site provided. Thanks for the links!

    John Paul Jones ("I have not yet begun to fight") was Scottish. I did quite a bit of research on JPJ. Very interesting character. Here's a link to his childhood home on the Craik estate called Arbigland on Solway Firth:

    http://www.jpj.demon.co.uk/jpjcott.htm

    JPJ was buried in Paris (pretty much alone and forgotten) during the French Revolution. The French coroner thought that perhaps someday America might want his body back, so he buried him in alcohol so JPJ became mummified. His grave was discovered and Teddy Roosevelt had been brought back to the US with great pomp. He is buried today in a special crypt at the US Naval Academy in Annapolis. Here's the Houdon bust of JPJ and his mummy.

    http://seacoastnh.com/Maritime_History/John_Paul_Jones/Is_This_John_Paul_Jones_Corpse%3F/

    kiwi lady
    July 31, 2005 - 12:48 pm
    I was practically brought up by my Scottish gran and I am a Campbell Clan descendant. Even when I was a child my granny spoke of massacres by the English and also of a hope that Scotland would get back its Sovereignty.

    My daughter went back to Scotland two years ago and was made so welcome by the remnants of our branch of the Campbells. They are truly a clannish nation. She also went up to Scotland to Stirling and was feted because her name was Stirling. Got royal treatment there. My husbands ancestor was armour bearer to King James that is where our surname came from. ( the association with Stirling castle) My daughter got to see the home her great grandmother lived in and walked the neighbourhood. It was a middle class area when my gran lived there and now is an exclusive suburb with huge real estate values. My second cousin Jessie still lives in the suburb just round the corner from where my grandmother lived. Her children also live in that same area.

    My stepfather is Scottish and still speaks about massacres by the English. Scots have a real knowledge of their history handed down from generation to generation. To my shame I have forgotten all my granny taught me about Scottish history because I became a Kiwi when I grew up. I left behind my childhood teachings. ( I used to call Scotland home because I was taught to)

    marni0308
    July 31, 2005 - 02:42 pm
    This year for the first time I read Kidnapped and Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson, who was Scottish. I had thought he was English. His novels certainly reflected Scottish history, rebellions. Plagued by tuberculosis, Stevenson toured the South Sea islands, including the Marquesas, Tahiti, Hawaii, and Samoa, to regain his health and to write. He realized that never again would he be able to live in Scotland because of his health. For the rest of his life he lived and worked in Samoa.

    "In the last two years of his life Stevenson's letters to his friends in Great Britain increasingly revealed his longing for Scotland and the frustration he felt at the thought of never seeing his homeland again. To S. R. Crockett he wrote, 'I shall never see Auld Reekie. I shall never set my foot again upon the heather. Here I am until I die, and here will I be buried. The word is out and the doom written.'"

    http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/stevensonbio.html#_inthesouthseas

    robert b. iadeluca
    July 31, 2005 - 05:59 pm
    "Like the Irish, the Scotch were loath to relinquish their kinship organization, to replace the clan by the state.

    "The intensity of their class conflicts was rivaled only by their proud loyalty to their clan and their tenacious resistance to foreign foes. Rome failed to conquer them. On the contrary, neither Hadrian's Wall between the Solway and the Tyne (A.D. 120), nor that of Antoninus Pius, sixty miles father north between the Firths of Forth and Clyde (140), nor the campaigns of Septimius Severus (208) or Theodosius (368) availed to end the periodical invasion of Britain by the hungry Picts.

    "In 617 the Saxons under Edwin, King of Northumbria, captured the hill stronghold of the Picts and named it Ed(win)burgh.

    "In 844 Kenneth MacAlpin united the Picts and Scots under his crown.

    "In 954 the tribes recaptured Edinburgh and made it their capital.

    "In 1018 Malcolm II conquered Lothian (the region north of the Tweed) and merged it with the realm of the Picts and Scots.

    "Celtic supremacy seemed assured but the Danish invasions of England drove thousands of 'English' into south Scotland and poured a strong Anglo-Saxon element into the Scottish blood."

    The usual class conflict we see in each culture now combined with clan conflict plus invasions by foreigners. What is it with these Celts?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    July 31, 2005 - 07:07 pm
    Well Robbie they are stubborn for a start and very highly independant. When we came in contact with the strong clan feelings even now I understand a lot more. I was abused by a MacDonald as late as 1971 for the Campbell Massacre of the MacDonalds. My Uncle married a MacDonald in the 1930's and there was a furore in the clan. None of my relations liked my Great Aunt. (I did as a young adult)

    Carolyn

    marni0308
    July 31, 2005 - 09:42 pm
    It's so interesting that Irish (Scoti?) of northern Ireland migrated to Scotland and then, later, Scottish Presbyterians migrated to northern Island, pushing out the Irish Catholics established there. We're still seeing the results of the trouble. A wave of these Scots (Presbyterians) moved on from northern Ireland to America in the 17th century. The American colonists called them "Irish." With the surge of Irish (Catholic) migrating to America in the 18th century esp. during the potato famine, the earlier wave called themselves "Scots-Irish" to distinguish themselves from the newer poorer wave of Irish Catholics moving in. Lately, there has been a great kindling of interest in the Scots-Irish and the culture they brought with them to America.

    Justin
    July 31, 2005 - 10:08 pm
    A firth is an estuary and an estuary is a body of water in which sea water meets fresh water from the land. I live next to an estuary and enjoy its beauties every day. Sloughs and marshes adjoin estuaries and they are also places of beauty. Birds of great variety inhabit these waters as do otters and snakes

    Justin
    July 31, 2005 - 10:25 pm
    Marni: What is the source for the movement of Scots Prebyterians to Northern Ireland? It would explain much of the "trouble" we see there today.

    JoanK
    July 31, 2005 - 10:26 pm
    I wonder what the difference is between a clan organization and a tribal organization, as is seen in many countries?

    JUSTIN: I envy you -- especially your opportunity to see so many birds.

    Justin
    July 31, 2005 - 11:09 pm
    I just read through the list of Forbe's 100 most powerful women. That list is testimony to the idea that women have "come a long way, baby." But there is more to do, much more.

    When I attend cocktail parties I watch to see whether the women gather in a corner to talk about babies or horn in on the men talking about baseball. When a woman tries to push a male conversation onto a serious topic, I support her and try to bring the conversation back to that topic.

    Topics such as "stem cell research" and "abortion" can serve to move the men off second base. I find that if I can get the women to cluster and talk about "Enron" and the "canning of Carli Fiorina", men will come over and join the conversation.

    Watch kids on a double date. If the boys talk to the boys and the girls talk to the girls we are still living with the problem.

    Bubble
    August 1, 2005 - 12:36 am
    Do you know what a bog-trotter is?

    It is someone who lives in a boggy country, hence an Irishman. (from Chamber's 20th Century Dict.)

    mabel1015j
    August 1, 2005 - 01:12 am
    Merijo - (re: post 483) Just because we as individuals don't think we are second-class citizens doesn't mean we haven't been treated as such by society, or that some people in society haven't tho't we were brainless as Justin stated, otherwise, why did the English change all those laws to exclude women's rights?

    Why weren't women included in the U.S. constitution when it was written? Why did it take 72 years of fighting and campaigning before women got the right to vote? Why did I as a teacher in 1970 have to quit teaching in my fifth month of pregnancy as though i was contagious?

    Why haven't we had a women president?

    I was told in my youth that Irish names were Mc...... and Scottish names were Mac..... In one of the resources it said the Mc was a corruption of the Mac, anyone have any more info on that?

    Wait till i tell my Murray friends that they are probably not Irish, but Scotch-Irish as i am!!

    I was also told in my youth that only people who have some Irish background could have red hair and/or hazel eyes, does anyone know if that is true? .......jean

    mabel1015j
    August 1, 2005 - 01:32 am
    marni (re post 516) I found a brief but informative article in the Encarta Encyclopedia on-line that gave the background of the Scots being moved by the English into northern Ireland to control the Irish-Catholics. If you do a search of Scots-Irish Immigration, click on "colonial America" then "Mid-atlantic region", "read article" and in the article click on "Ulster Planation" it gives a concise explanation.......jean

    My mother's family was a part of that colonial immigration of Calvinist Presbyterian Scots. They came to south, central Pennsylvania and have been there for almost 300 years and continued to be farmers and VERY Calvinistic thru my mother's generation. When i was young we couldn't play any board games, or cards on Sundays and my aunt was appalled when i got a job during my college years in which i had to work on Sundays. The Calvinists were largely responsible for Pennsylvania's "blues laws" - no businesses open on Sundays.

    Monarch of the Glen is a wonderful PBS tv show about a fictional branch of the "MacDonald" clan in contemporary Scotland. The acting is very good and it has apparently become quite popular. It gives wonderful scenic views of Scotland.........jean

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 03:26 am
    "Duncan I (1034-40) gathered all four peoples -- Picts, Scots, Celtic British and Anglo-Saxon -- into one kingdom of Scotland.

    "Duncan's defeat by the English at Durham gave an opening to his general Macbeth, who claimed the throne because his wife Gruoch was granddaughter of Kenneth III.

    "Macbeth murdered Duncan (1040), reigned for seventeen years, and was murdered by Duncan's son Malcolm III.

    "Of seventeen kings who ruled Scotland from 844 to 1057, twelve died by assassination. It was a violent age of bitter struggle for food and water, freedom and power.

    "In those dour years Scotland had little time for the frills and graces of civilization. Three centuries were to pass before Scotland literature would begin.

    "Norse radiders captured the Orkney Islands, the Faroes, the Shetlands, and the Hebrides. And Scotland lived under the threat of conquest by those fearless Vikings who were spreading their power and seed over the Western world."

    In high school we read Shakespeare's "Macbeth" but we never learned in history class that there was actually such a person. Scotland may not have much of its own literature and art during that period but apparently it stimulated its creation elsewhere.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 03:37 am
    Here is a summary of SHAKESPEARE'S MACBETH.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 03:43 am
    Here is the source of MENDELSSOHN'S SCOTTISH SYMPHONY.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 03:52 am
    Here are some FAMOUS QUOTES FROM "MACBETH."

    Some of these quotes have become part of our speech when we are trying to emphasize something. These words in our mouth would not have existed without the existence of Shakespeare. Shakespeare's "Macbeth" would not have been created without the existence of the Scotland that we have been examining.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 03:58 am
    Some facts about FINGAL'S CAVE.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 04:02 am
    Who was GRUOCH?

    Robby

    Bubble
    August 1, 2005 - 04:05 am
    Thanks for all those links! We do go to incredible sidewalks in this discussion what with Mendelsohn, Shakespeare and those routinely used quotes. I am adding to my general knowledge at a rate never equalled before.

    Scots are a really proud people, aren't they?

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 04:08 am
    But even if we do take "sidewalks," Bubble, we still stick to the underlying topic, don't we? Just shows the fascinating web which makes up the life we lead.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 04:47 am
    Is it SCOTTISH OR SCOTCH?

    Robby

    MeriJo
    August 1, 2005 - 12:52 pm
    marni:

    Your point is well-taken. However, I had no connection in my life with the English so did not know or was affected by their laws. I just took and demanded my rights as an American citizen - never bothered about gender.

    As for women being excluded from the U. S. Constitution, they weren't. The noun, "man" includes "woman." I was aware of that inclusion all through my years of growing up and at all levels of education. The distinction began to be lamented with the rise of feminism in the world. It has been a superfluous situation to include "her" in writing of something that applies to both genders, such as "his/her". English doesn't have the suffixes as many other languages do to distinguish male from female.

    I don't know if it took 72 years, but one must remember the times - most people especially men were illiterate until recently. Society was moving rapidly in its assimilation of various groups, and the primary and most overwhelming cause was to put food on the table. Men forsake education in favor of that. Incorporated with that was a mores among many in this country that women did not need to vote. Progress was moving ahead of the illiterates and those lacking the polish of education. Such was life.

    As for your needing to quit teaching while pregnant, I would say it was for many of the same reasons. In America, especially, a particularly prudish culture until recently, the consensus among those in positions of making decisions were primarily influenced by beliefs that pregnancy reminded one of sex and the sexual act. We couldn't help what people thought generally. That is just the way it was.

    As for a woman president, I think, as with everything else it is that change is being affected slowly. One day we shall have a woman president.

    As a postscript: I had a wonderful father who treated me from the time I could toddle as an equal. He spoke to me as an equal and took me on his business trips and explained business and things along the way. He also loved learning. He had been educated as far as his little village in Italy could take him and then his mother had found a tutor for him. His first gift to me I remember was a dictionary. I just had a different impression of life from the very beginning.

    Justin
    August 1, 2005 - 01:22 pm
    Marijo: I am sure you recognize the problem Marni and I are referencing but you seem to persist in generalizing your particular experience which is quite unusual for our period of life. You seem to see the issues but offer softening excuses to make room for them in society. Does being an educated woman mean one should sit in the middle and examine both sides of an issue but never take a position on either side? Tell me your thoughts about the ERA movement.

    Justin
    August 1, 2005 - 01:26 pm
    Marijo: I agree. I think, as you do, that one day we shall have a woman president. I hope it is in 2008.

    Justin
    August 1, 2005 - 01:49 pm
    I read the encarta piece you suggested. The Ulster Plantation and its intent is well within the scope of James l's orientation. He is responsible for the writing of the King James version of the Bible and dissent with the Puritans. He was pleased when some Puritans moved to Holland before sailing for Plymouth and probably thought it was better to send others to counter Catholicism in Ireland than to jail them. He stretched a few leading members on the rack before deciding on export. He was Scots- Prebyterian and very much opposed to Catholicism. It is no wonder he tried to blend his people- Scots Presbyterians into Irish life by giving them pieces of 9 million acres in Ulster. Good Lord, we are looking at the root of the problem in Northern Ireland. The Brits brought it on them selves.

    MeriJo
    August 1, 2005 - 02:31 pm
    Justin:

    Yes, I know to what you are referring. I am not inclined to take seriously situations which have no real direct bearing on me. They are comments on the times, and may be perceived by people who relate outside themselves more. As a girl I was having to give enough time to understanding American ways and American colloquialisms, and helping with my family's business. Extracurricular societal events were just that. I was very busy. After I was married, if you recall the forties, fifties and sixties, most people were coping with their family's needs, their jobs, some of us could not even have much of a social life because of priorities which were far more important.

    I hope the excuses I gave are not softening. Historically, they are real. Justin, I couldn't get a teaching job because I was a Catholic. I got into trouble in the grammar school of a biased town because I was an Italian . And it was a parochial school. One of our nuns referred to the Civil War as the War Between The States - she was a southerner. These situations came about because of history affecting society and the particular society in a certain locale responding.

    I took positions in things that I thought important, exchange student programs, working with the adult developmentally handicapped, on my city's citizen advisory committee, teaching music and doctrine in my parish, and worked with the teacher's society chapter to which I belonged to further education for women. I did most of these things after my children were grown, I had quit teaching and after I was widowed. Before then I baked cakes for a cause's fundraisers.

    I think the ERA is superfluous. We already have rights. What we need is to broaden understanding among the various cultures - can't even assign the deficiencies to nationalities. It is just the way people were accultured as they grew up.

    marni0308
    August 1, 2005 - 03:04 pm
    Merijo: I think you've attributed someone else's comment to me in #533.

    At any rate, I don't think I completely agree with you re: "As for women being excluded from the U. S. Constitution, they weren't." I think they were excluded, especially when it came to voting. It took a Constitutional Amendment to change that. I remember reading that Abigail Adams asked her husband, "Don't forget the women, John," when he headed off to the constitutional convention. He did.

    MeriJo
    August 1, 2005 - 04:56 pm
    marni:

    I was responding to why did the English change all those laws to exclude women's rights? of your #522. Please forgive, if I misunderstood.

    As I posted, marni, I think women are included in the title of "man" and "men" as it is/was recognized as a collective noun for "mankind". If women were to have been identified each time that "men" or "man" was written in those days, our Constitution may have been incongruous. This is my belief.

    But, I agree, when it came to voting, women were not included. The founding fathers had the chance to make history, and it didn't occur to them to give women a vote.

    Abigail Adams was quite a perceptive woman. I think she influenced John Adams more than he may have realized.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 1, 2005 - 05:02 pm
    I am thoroughly confused. What does ERA and the U.S. Constitution have to do with the Picts, the Scots, the Celtic British, the Anglo-Saxons, Duncan, Macbeth, the Orkney Islands, and Scotland in general a thousand years ago?

    Robby

    Justin
    August 1, 2005 - 05:45 pm
    Marijo: When you were unable to get a teaching job because you were a Catholic, you must have felt strongly that religious bias in non religious jobs is wrong. It is clearly un-American and now that we have some Civil Rights laws the practice of exclusion is illegal. That would not have come about had the excluded portions of society not been willing to fight for rights that others would deny them. When the Irish Catholics of Northern Ireland were swamped in the 17th century by Puritans and Scots Prebyterians, they fought back. That battle continues.

    In my childhood town of 50,000 people, on the edge of Manhattan, Italian imigration in the twenties and thirties upset the balance of power. It greatly enlarged a small Irish Catholic population that contended with the established order. Bias was rampant until the Italians recognized their power after WWll. Then the Italians began to exclude. This game would have persisted had not the Civil Rights laws intervened.

    I am trying to suggest that the good citizen is one who is willing to step out of himself and contribute to the well being of society and that means one must be interested in and feel connected to the problems others encounter in the society.

    Justin
    August 1, 2005 - 05:49 pm
    Robby; You're right. We have drifted away by a millennium or more.Thanks for calling attention to the problem.

    MeriJo
    August 1, 2005 - 07:25 pm
    I'm sorry, robby. I shall answer as briefly as I can.

    Justin:

    I was used to being discriminated against because of my religion. I was not a member of the middle class where I could take off some time and start being an activist. I had to get a job and contribute to the family's needs. I became a saleslady. I knew it would be for a short time. My responses here are to demonstrate that times and circumstances dictate what one can and must do. I couldn't let prejudice sidetrack me.

    I have always thought of myself as a good citizen and more.

    I did not live in a pre-dominantly Catholic area nor in a "Little Italy." A member of the Ku Klux Klan lived across the street.

    Justin
    August 1, 2005 - 09:47 pm
    Merijo: I am not suggesting that you are not a good citizen. I thought we were dealing with abstractions. I also suspected you were resident in the South where predjudice against Catholics was and may yet be very strong. It was particularly so in the period we are talking about. The Southern Baptist just loved having Catholics in the world to support his false sense of power.

    I forgot that the victim of bigotry must cope and does not have time to think of broader issues outside oneself. Durant himself said that civilization does not begin until man has been freed of the need to cope with danger. But in spite of the threats on your well being you completed college and became a teacher. That's evidence of a very strong character.

    mabel1015j
    August 1, 2005 - 10:05 pm
    Just to clarify, I posted the response to Marijo about women and started that interesting discussion, and the one about the Scots moving to Ireland, somehow the names got all mixed up.

    My given name is Jean, a very good Scottish name I might add. My "title" name is Mabel becuase Jean was taken on the the site.

    I was responding to Marijo and Marni and i think that created the confusion.

    marni0308
    August 1, 2005 - 10:20 pm
    Jean: That WAS an interesting discussion. Thanks! And thanks for providing the site about Ulster.

    Robbie: Sorry for the diversion.

    Marni

    Sunknow
    August 1, 2005 - 10:28 pm
    I searched the links posted for information on where Scotland Yard got it's name. I must have missed it.

    Searching elsewhere, I found: "The name derives from its original location on a street off Whitehall called Great Scotland Yard. The exact origins of this name are unknown, though a popular explanation is that it was the former site of the residence of the Scottish kings".

    Does anyone know of a better explanation? Just curious.

    Sun

    kiwi lady
    August 1, 2005 - 11:51 pm
    Robbie if born in Scotland you are a Scot. Thats used in modern conversation but word used when I was a kid was Scottish.

    If you are talking about your geneology you would say I am of Scottish descent.

    MeriJo
    August 2, 2005 - 09:03 am
    Justin:

    Thank you.

    Actually I was born and grew up in Southern California in Inglewood adjacent to Los Angeles. I have lived in the San Joaquin Valley, the great Central Valley, since 1951. I have always lived in California.

    MeriJo
    August 2, 2005 - 09:05 am
    mabel:

    Thank you for your explanation. That clears up a lot.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 2, 2005 - 04:51 pm
    I am taking a break while you folks are taking a vacation from Story of Civilization.

    Robby

    3kings
    August 2, 2005 - 05:53 pm
    All that can be said about Ireland, Wales, and Scotland, is that despite romanticists' efforts through the centuries, life for ordinary folk was then short, brutal, and without hope this side of the grave. Possibly, therein lies the reason for religion's hold on the poor sufferers. It has to be admitted that life for the so called leaders was very similar. Unlike today, politicians were expected to actively lead their soldiers into battle.

    It is true of course that the same observations can be made of conditions elsewhere on the globe. But the fact that things, while still blemished with outrageous behaviour in many places, have slowly improved for many of us, gives proof that civilisation is slowly but surely stumbling forward.

    It is interesting to read, following our study of the Arabs, that the late King Fahd of Saudi Arabia is to be buried in an unmarked grave with his head lying unprotected in the sand. It seems that Wahhabi Muslims regard the visiting of graves as idolatry, and that flags shall not be flown at half mast because this is deemed blasphemous. +++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 03:22 am
    The Northmen

    800-1066

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 03:33 am
    "Apparently the Northmen were Teutons whose ancestors had moved up through Denmark and across the Skaggerak and Kattegat into Sweden and Norway, displacing a Celtic population that had displaced a Mongolian people akin to the Laplanders and Eskimos.

    "An early chieftain, Dan Mikillati, gave his name to Denmark -- Dan's march or province.

    "The ancient tribe of Suiones, described by Tacitus as dominating the great peninsula, left their name in Sweden (Sverige), and in many kings called Sweyn.

    "Norway (Norge) was simply the northern way.

    "Skane, the name given to Sweden by the elder Pliny, became in Latin Scandia and begot the Scandinavia that now covers three nations of kindred blood and mutually intelligible speech. In all three countries the fertility of women, or the imagination of men, outran the fertility of the soil.

    "The young or discontent took to their boats and prowled about the coasts for food, slaves, wives, or gold. Their hunger acknowledged no laws and no frontiers.

    "The Norwegians overflowed into Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, and Greenland -- the Swedes into Russia -- the Danes into England and France."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 03:40 am
    Here is a MAP OF SCANDINAVIA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 03:57 am
    Here is a map indicating the positions of the SKAGGERAK AND KATTEGAT.

    Robby

    Alliemae
    August 3, 2005 - 05:46 am
    Ever since I started in this group in mid-July, the mention of the year 1066 always brought a flash to my mind that it was also a very significant year in Ottoman/Byzantine and/or Mongol Hordes history. So far I've been unable to trace 1066 AD to anywhere but where we are now is this group.

    I can't imagine, considering my near emersion in recent years in Near and Middle Eastern history that 1066 was only a Western Civilization marker but can't find any Eastern references. Has the group dealt yet with the early rise of Islam? (Still waiting for my text!)

    Also, it is fascinating to see how the countries' names evolved and especially the rise of the Scandinavian sailor. I knew a little about Norwegians and the sea but didn't know about the Swedes and Danes.

    Re: Map of Scandinavia--they certainly had their waterways opportunities!

    Skaggerak and Kattegat: Actually seeing their location made the northward move of the Teutons much easier to visualize.

    Thanks, Robby, for the write-up and the links!

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 3, 2005 - 06:31 am
    Alliemae, the discussion on Volume 1V of Story of Civilization "The Age of Faith" started in August 2004 and if you click on it in the heading you will se that the rise of Islam has been extensively discussed. We are very happy to have your participation. Story of Civilization started in the Fall of 2002. Sometimes I browse in the past posts and enjoy it all over again.

    Alliemae
    August 3, 2005 - 07:19 am
    Thanks Eloise...I love browsing the earlier posts and am glad you have pinpointed where to go re: Islam for me.

    chukwalla
    August 3, 2005 - 08:44 am
    An interesting one paragraph on the origin of Scotland Yard's name I read in a book I can recommend as a first class true thriller: Michael Creighton's "The Great Train Robbery". It is on CD in many libraries. The London Police were first organized in 1829 by Robert Peel (Hence the name "Bobbies" for coppers in England) Its first HQ was in an area called Scotland Yard, I suppose because of a concentration of Scots there. I may have misspelled the author; he's the "Jurrasic Park" fellow.

    Sunknow
    August 3, 2005 - 12:40 pm
    Thanks, Chukwalla, for the added info on how Scotland Yard got it's name. Yes, I knew about the "Bobbies" name.

    Re: The Northmen. Since "The young or discontent.....prowled about the coasts for food, slaves, wives, or gold....". They truly knew no boundaries and no frontiers.

    When you think about it, if..."The Norwegians overflowed into Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, and Greenland -- the Swedes into Russia -- the Danes into England and France".....the Northmen must be so mixed that there could be no true blood line anywhere. Assuming that they did eventually mingle.

    Sun

    mabel1015j
    August 3, 2005 - 01:29 pm
    On PBS next week in our area they are showing "Visions of Scotland" on MOnday night and on Saturday they showing "Celtic Women"which i think is a musical performance......jean

    Alliemae
    August 3, 2005 - 07:57 pm
    Thanks Mabel for the heads up...nice share!! Oh, learning is so much more fun in a group!! I'm loving it here at SrNet!

    Alliemae
    August 3, 2005 - 08:00 pm
    Yes...Celtic Woman is a wonderful group of women performers...well worth the viewing and listening.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 08:07 pm
    Welcome, Chukwalla!! Thanks for your posting and please let us hear your reactions to the various texts by Durant.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 08:28 pm
    You are correct, Eloise, that at the end of this month we will have been discussing The Age of Faith for a full year. A small correction, however, the entire Story of Civilization began not in the Fall of 2002 but on November 1, 2001. This November we shall have been discussing Durant's momentous work for four years.

    At the start of The Age of Faith I stated that in this volume we would be covering 1000 years in 1000 pages. To date we have covered 502 pages out of 1086 pages -- roughly one half of the volume. That indicates to me that while most of the other volumes took us approximately nine months to discuss, this one will take well into the Year 2006.

    Look what we have ahead of us:-Christianity in Conflict, Feudalism and Chivalry, The Crusades, The Economic Revolution, The Recovery of Europe, Pre-Renaissance Italy, The Roman Catholic Church, The Early Inquisition, Monks and Friars, The Morals and Manners of Christendom, the Resurrection of the Arts, the Gothic Flowering, Medieval Music, The Transmission of Knowledge, Abelard, The Adenture of Reason, Christian Science, The Age of Romance, and Dante.

    Can't you just taste what is coming up? Are you beginning to be thirsty for more knowledge and adventure? Isn't this discussion group fantastic?

    Tell your friends.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 08:35 pm
    Here is a map of GREENLAND.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 08:39 pm
    Here is a map of ICELAND.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 3, 2005 - 08:54 pm
    "Life's brevity forbids the enumeration of gods or kings.

    "Gorm (860-935) gave Denmark unity.

    "His son Harald Bluetooth (945-85) gave it Christianity.

    "Sweyn Forkbeard (985-1014) conquered England and made Denmark for a generation one of the gret powers of Europe.

    "King Olaf Skottkonung (994-1022) made Sweden Christian and Uppsala his capital. In 800 Norway was a conglormeration of thirty-one principalities, separated by mountains, rivers, or fjords and each ruled by a warrior chief.

    "About 850 one such leader, Halfdan the Black, from his capital at Trondheim, subdued most of the others, and became Norway's first king.

    "His son Harald Haarfager (860-933) was challenged by rebellious chierftains. The Gyda whom he wooed refused to marry him until he should conquer all Norway. He vowed never to clip or comb his hair until it was done. He accomplished it in ten years, married Gyda and nine other women, cut his hair, and received his distinguishing name -- the Fair-haired.

    "One of his many sons, Haakon the Good (935-61), ruled Norway well for twenty-seven years. 'Peace lasted so long,' complained a Viking warrior, 'that I was afraid I might come to die of old age within doors on a bed.'

    "Another Haakon -- 'the Great Earl' -- governed Norway ably for thirty years (965-95). In his old age he offended the 'bonders' or free peasants by taking their daughters as concubines and sending them home after a week or two.

    "The bonders called in Olaf Tryggvesson and made him king."

    What do you folks think of these rough Vikings?

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    August 3, 2005 - 09:00 pm
    Robbie to be honest I think in many ways we have not progressed much since the days of the Vikings. We rape and pillage in more subtle ways that is all! I cannot be too critical of the Vikings however because if they had not raided Britain I would not be here and I would not be me!

    It is interesting to note that Denmark, Norway, Iceland and Sweden are amongst the most peaceable and civilised countries in the world these days. Their inhabitants enjoy a very good standard of living under a modern Socialistic system.

    Norway is known as a peace broker these days.

    Sunknow
    August 3, 2005 - 09:55 pm
    I also noted that Peace currently seems to be easy to hold on to in the part of the world we study now.

    But I was amused with the Viking warrior's complaint that "Peace lasted so long" that he was afraid he'd die of old age.

    It seems to be that many men think they are born to be warriors. Why else would they long to be a "war-time" President, or a Leader that struggles to save the world from itself. At times, they seem to "fight" for Peace, even if they create wars to do so.

    Sun

    3kings
    August 3, 2005 - 09:58 pm
    Carolyn you say we have not progressed much since the days of the Vikings. Your #570.

    Then you go on to state that the Scandinavian countries are now the most peaceable and civilized countries one could find. Which is it ? Are they, and we, still barbarous, or are we now much more civilized than we were ? +++ Trevor

    Justin
    August 3, 2005 - 09:59 pm
    We first encountered the effects of over population or of fertility over comming the ability of the soil to produce food in Greece in the sixth, fifth, and fourth centuries. You may remember, that Corinth and Chalcis disposed of it's excess population by seizing and establishing colonies in Sicily, Thrace and Italy. Sparta and Athens took care of the problem by fighting each other for a neighbor's lands.

    Now we encounter the problem of fertility rates overtaking agriculture again. The Danes solved the problem by raiding the English coast and settling among the Anglo Saxons. The Norsemen raided and took over lands in Iceland, and Russia.

    This problem of overpopulation is a common one that leads to invasion and conquest. We are going to see it again and again. Migrations of people looking for land to subsist upon will eventually make the nations of Europe places with identified populations.

    Justin
    August 3, 2005 - 10:07 pm
    If I read Carolyn correctly, she is saying that we are still struggling to over come expanding population by attacking neighbors vis a vis Hitler and the Sudetenland and thus doing what the Vikings did while at the same time we are progressing politically and culturally.

    kiwi lady
    August 3, 2005 - 11:44 pm
    Trevor unless they get a handle on aids and the bird flu the world could be decimated by 40% in a pandemic.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 4, 2005 - 02:16 am
    Robby, You say "Look what we have ahead of us:-" What we have ahead of us is what I have been waiting for since we began S of C, it seems to me. Not that what's ahead will be more peaceful or humane, but as we move toward modernity, the names and events will begin to be more familiar and they might bring me out of my summer lethargy. Is there no vacation in store for us Oh! infatigable leader? My friends and family all know about S of C, but they are afraid of being its slave if they join.

    Carolyn, if there was peace all over the world, and we were free of pandemics in a few short years, the earth's population would double. War and disease has always been what kept overpopulation in check. I dread the ones knocking on the door.

    Trevor, I don't count modern technology as a progress towards civilization, it is only one more sophisticated weapon used to take over land and natural resources from weaker nations. I am wondering too if we are less barbarous? Perhaps when it comes to treating diseases in the West but we are unwilling to do the same for Third World countries and to me that would be a sign of being more civilized.

    Alliemae
    August 4, 2005 - 05:17 am
    'Peace lasted so long,'COMPLAINED' a Viking warrior' (caps mine)

    maybe our dreams of peace are unnatural to the human race...is it a necessary evil? like counter-irritation spurring growth???

    I still think my idea is best...cordon off one large island somewhere in the world and let the war-lovers go and play their war games...maybe there is a need for war in some people...and they could play away at no risk and expense to the rest who love peace...

    I live alone...call myself a pacifist...and you should see the battles which rage at times between me, myself and I...

    the only problem with my theory about the 'war island' is that the warriors would have to finance it themselves so we would end up once again with rampant piracy!!

    What do I think about these rough Vikings? Hmmmm still a LOT of rough around, I would say...

    Did kind of like this bit...""His son Harald Haarfager (860-933) was challenged by rebellious chierftains. The Gyda whom he wooed refused to marry him until he should conquer all Norway. He vowed never to clip or comb his hair until it was done. He accomplished it in ten years, married Gyda and nine other women, cut his hair,...' Ahhh...what I did for love!! Served her right when he married the other women...I would think a better condition would have been to 'restore peace and unity'...guess we can't blame men for war!!

    This is an incredible period of history to me...so glad I'm finally getting to know this book!!

    winsum
    August 4, 2005 - 11:34 am
    and what do we have ahead of us here? more religion, more warfare more violence and stupidity. I think I'll leave that to all you good people and do something else.Current happenings are far more exciting and interesting to me. It's been nice. see you all around ELSEWHERE. . . . Claire

    MeriJo
    August 4, 2005 - 01:34 pm
    Justin: Your #384

    I read this post of yours with some doubt as no relics are supposed to have remained on earth after Mary was assumed into heaven, so I did some research. I learned that since the beginning of Christianity, it has been plagued by those who wish to profit by items that may be said, falsely, belonged to early Christian figures. This is called Christianism. I asked a very good friend who knows about such things and I learned the following. This post is out of order, but it did deal with what we were reading here. I am now researching the second item at the Abbey Church of St.Denis. We have asked another person.

    The Shroud of Turin has turned out to be a fake, you know.

    Robby, if my returning to an earlier post in order to clarify a statement is unacceptable here, I shall not do it again. But, it is a concern to me when something appears so wrong.

    Justin, you wrote:

    Mary's chemise is available at the Abbey Church of St. Denis. It was Abbot Suger who waved it in a storm in 1122 to enlist her protection for his new unsupported abbey walls. There is another set of undergarments belonging to Mary in the treasury of Chartres. I have actually seen these several times. I look at them and feel as a male intruder on private things.

    The researcher's response:

    The only thing I found in one of the Catholic Encyclopedias (Our Sunday Visitor) about Chartres is that it has one of Our Lady's veils preserved under glass. My big one says, "the "voile de la Vierge" (Veil of the Blessed Virgin,) given to Charlemagne by Constantine Porphyrogenitus and Irene, transferred about 876 by Charles the Bald from Aachen to Chartres, and raised as a standard in 911 by Gantelme, the bishop, to put to flight the Norman Rollo. In 1360 Edward III of England, and in 1591 Henry IV of France, passed reverently beneath the reliquary containing this veil, which, until the end of the eighteenth century, was considered a chemise, and"chemisettes," emblematic of this veil, were worn on the breast" So who knows. If it IS a relic of Our Lady, it's her veil, not her undergarment. The problem lies--as it does so often--in the translation hence the old saying: The translator lies.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 4, 2005 - 03:17 pm
    Let us return toa the Northmen.

    "Olaf, son of Tryggve, was a great grandson of Harald of the Fair Hair.

    "Said Snorri of Iceland, 'he was a very merry froliesome man, gay and social, very generous and finical in his dress,,,stout and strong, the handsomest of men, excelling in bodily exercises every Northman that ever was heard of.'

    "He could run across the oars outside his ship while men were rowing. Could juggle three sharp-pointed daggers, could cast two spears at once, and 'could cut equally well with either hand.' Many a quarrel he had and many an adventure.

    "While in the British Isles he was converted to Christianity and became its merciless advocate. When he was made King of Norway (995) he destroyed pagan temples, built Christian churches and continued to live in polygamy. The bonders opposed the new religion fiercely and demanded that Olaf should make sacrifice to Thor as in the ancient ritual. He agreed but proposed to offer Thor the most acceptable sacrifice -- the leading bonders themselves. Whereupon they became Christians.

    "When one of them, Rand, persisted in paganism, Olaf had him bound and forced a serpent down his throat by burning the serpent's tail. The viper made its way through Rand's stomach and aide and Rand died.

    "Olaf proposed marriage to Sigrid, Queen of Sweden. She accepted but refused to abandon her pagan faith. Olaf struck her in the face with his glove, saying 'Why should I care to have thee, an old faded woman, a heathen jade?' Said Sigrid:-'This may some day be thy death.' Two years later the kings of Sweden and Denmark and Earl Eric of Norway made war against Olaf. He was defeated in a great naval battle near Rugen. He leaped full armed into the sea and never rose again (1000).

    "Norway was divided among the victors."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 4, 2005 - 03:31 pm
    Numerous photos of NORWEGIAN FJORDS. Slow loading but worth it.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 4, 2005 - 05:30 pm
    Iceland VOLCANIC ERUPTION caught on camera.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 4, 2005 - 05:58 pm
    Read about the HAUGHTY QUEEN.

    Robby

    marni0308
    August 4, 2005 - 06:53 pm
    Wonderful pictures of the fjords, Robbie! Loved seeing the Longfellow poem about the queen and Olaf. Has there been a film made about King Olaf of Norway? Quite a character.

    Re: "maybe there is a need for war in some people..." I think there is an innate need for war in people, at least in men. I think it must be in our genes. No matter how much civilization has "progressed," hasn't that been our lot? Always, always someone needs more power, more land, more food, more wealth, more natural resources, more wives, more whatever. Perhaps those genes also help to promote civilization. War and progress seem to go hand in hand, as war and decimation also go hand in hand.

    Now here we are at what seems to be the beginnings of World War III. I wonder what our planet will be like in five years.

    Marni

    Justin
    August 4, 2005 - 07:37 pm
    Merijo: I offered 384 "tongue in Cheek" however, the relics are there and were used as I described. Chemise or vail, what's the difference. They are almost all fake. We went through several periods of relic collection in Europe.

    Helen or Irene, mother of Constantine, I forget which, brought back from the east, the "true cross". It was an intact piece of wood, found after three centuries of lying in the dirt.

    Some folks from Venice went to Anatolia where they found some bones in an old cemetery. A millennium of time had passed since Mark had died but these were his bones.They brought them to St Marks and placed them in the treasury.

    Every Cathedral and major Abbey in Europe wanted a relic and relic sellers were abundantly available with lots to choose from. Bartholomew,s skin, Mary's chemise, take your pick, the sellers had it available for the right price.

    I think the relics of St Thomas in Canterbury are actual relics because he was killed in the Cathedral and the monks in attendance were not likely to miss an opportunity to get some bones. The treasury at Canterbury is testimony to a recovery process that captured any thing and everything one could possibly want in relics. The Canterbury Tales of Chaucer are tales told while pilgrims travel to Canterbury to enlist the aid of Thomas's bones in defeating the plague.

    We will, at some point in our story deal with the relic buying fads. They are just one more example of religious gulibility, and of a desire by the priesthood to reinforce its power with magic potions.

    JoanK
    August 4, 2005 - 07:45 pm
    "War and disease has always been what kept overpopulation in check."

    That has been true for most of human history. But not lately. In country after country, when it industrialized, the birth rate has fallen -- not immediately, but eventually.

    This is called the "Demographic transition". In pre-industrial countries, the birth rate is very high, but so is the death rate. With the improved health conditions that go with industrialization, the death rate drops sharply. But the birth rate is still high, causing a huge population surge.

    In an agricultural community, having a lot of children is not so much of a problem -- there is (hopefully) food, and the children can work on the farm. But this population surge often occurs at just the time when people are leaving the farm and moving to the city, causing many social problems.

    However, in country after country, people have brought the birthrate down into check. Improved knowledge of birth control is part of the reason, but people seem to find a way, even without this.

    This happened in this country at the turn of the last century, a time when there was massive immigration. The population of the US literally doubled in ten years. There were many social results: the birth control movement, harsh anti-immigration laws, even forced sterilization of minorities in some areas. But eventually, the population came into balance.

    My family illustrates this. My great-great grandparents had ten children, but only two lived. My grandparents had ten children, and they all lived, causing great economic problems for the family. My parents had two children, as do I.

    MeriJo
    August 4, 2005 - 08:57 pm
    Justin:

    Thanks for responding, but I didn't get that "tongue in cheek" impression from your post.

    More about this when we get there.

    Justin
    August 4, 2005 - 09:42 pm
    Merijo: I must be more blunt when I am tongue in cheek. Sorry you missed it. A chemise is a woman's under garment in Webster's book. It is not a veil.

    Justin
    August 4, 2005 - 10:03 pm
    When population growth out runs subsistance levels several methods are available for control. Pestilence and disease have always served to keep growth within bounds. Infanticide has been helpful. But there are other methods. The classical Greek experience has shown us a number of approaches that were successful at that time. Athens increased it's productive power by stablizing it's government with Phidias giving it better control of its economic power. The US has used technology to improve its productive power thus ensuring food for a larger and larger population.

    Sparta used warfare and invasion to capture new land for cultivation.

    Corinth and Athens established foreign colonies to receive some of its people and thus become consumption centers for trading purposes.

    The Spartan invasive approach has invariably led to resistance by the "home boys" followed by a war that takes its toll of both populations.

    3kings
    August 4, 2005 - 10:20 pm
    Few or none it seems agree with me that civilization has reached a higher plane than it held a 1000 years ago. I truly believe it has. I detect a much greater reluctance among the ordinary folk when their 'Leaders' urge them to war. I am reminded about the attitude of many in the would be warrior nations during the recent wars in East Asia, or the current conflicts in the Middle East.

    The beating of the drums, and the cries of the jingoistic, fall on more unresponsive ears than they once did. And we respond to disasters like the Tsunami, or the African starving, with heart warming help. Many, I believe, feel "they are their brother's keeper." ++ Trevor.

    Justin
    August 4, 2005 - 11:09 pm
    I agree with you Trevor. We have reached a higher level of civilization than previously. The first sign I had of it was Wilson's Fourteen Points. The "Have"countries do support those "without" in time of disaster and that is a gain on previous generations.

    Justin
    August 4, 2005 - 11:26 pm
    The Greeks showed us three ways to control population. The Chinese who regulated the number and gender of births per family showed us a fourth way.

    The Chinese approach is an obvious solution to population expansion.

    History tells us that over population is one of the causes of war. Migration comes about as a reaction to over population. People need new land to support their numbers and new land is always defended by current residents. That leads to war, inevitabbly.

    Some us in this discussion have persistently expressed opposition to war. How can war be prevented?. It can be prevented by controlling population growth. How does one do that? It is done with contraceptive devices and control of medical technology that prolongs life. I am not in favor of curbing the latter but I am in favor of the former. There are some in the population who are opposed to the former and many of those are opposed to war. What is to be done about this dilemna?

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 04:30 am
    "Social order among the Norse, as elsewhere, was based upon family discipline, economic co-operation, and religious belief.

    "Says a passage in Beowulf, 'In him who well considers, nothing can stifle kinship.' Unwanted children were exposed to die but once accepted, the child received a judicious compound of discipline and love.

    "There were no family names. Each son merely added his father's name to his own:-Olaf Haraldson, Magnus Olafsson, Haakon Magmusson.

    "Long before Christianity came to them, the Scandinavians, in naming a child, poured water over him as a symbol of admission into the family.

    "Education was practical. Girls learned the arts of the home, including the brewing of ale. Boys learned to swim, ski, work wood and metal, wrestle, row, skate, play hockey (from Danaish Hoek, hook), hunt, and fight with bow and arrow, sword or spear. Jumping was a favorite exercise. Some Norwegians, fully armed and armored, could jump above their own height or swim for miles. Some could run faster than the fleetest horse.

    "Many children learned to read and write. Some were trained in medicine or law.

    "Both sexes sang lustily. A few in either sex played musical instruments, usually the harp. We read in the Elder Edda how King Gunnar could play the harp with his toes and charm snakes with its tones.

    "Polygamy was practiced by the rich until the thirteenth century.

    "Marriages were arranged by the parents, often through purchase. The free woman could veto such an arrangement but if she married against the will of her parents her husband was declared an outlaw and might legally be slain by her relatives. A man could divorce his wife at will but unless he gave good reson he too was subject to assassination by her family.

    "Either mate might divorce the other for dressing like the opposite sex -- as when the wife wore breeches or the man wore a shirt open at the breast. A husband might kill with impunity -- i.e. without provoking a blood feud -- any man whom he caught in illicit relations with his wife. Women worked hard but they remained sufficiently delectable to stir men on to kill one another for their sakes and men dominant in public life were, as everywhere, recessive at home.

    "In general the position of woman was higher in pagan than in later Christian Scandinavia. She was the mother not of sin but of strong brave men.

    "She had one-third -- after twenty years of marriage one-half -- right in all wealth acquired by her husband. She was consulted by him in his business arragements and mingled freely with men in her home."

    What are your thoughts regarding life in ancient Scandinavia? Thoughts on differences between this culture and previous cultures we have examined. Comments about Scandinavian women -- ancient and nowadays. How names are formed. Christianity vs "pagan" beliefs.

    Robby

    tooki
    August 5, 2005 - 08:02 am
    in a large book which seemingly has no end. Wait! I see Eloise, who seems to think she is being kept a slave. There’s Justin, with his tongue almost coming out of his cheek. And Trevor, whose typing appears to have improved since his messages are longer. Leading us is our fearless leader, determined in his intrepid way, to help us out of this labyrinth where what you read on page 1 needs to be retained until we get to it again on page 500. And, even though this isn’t “Waiting for Gordot,” we await Mal’s return.

    Meanwhile, those Viking ways are all too conveniently acceptable to us white, middle class Americans with our equal treatment of women, egalitarian society, and general robust Viking ways.

    Information about the social order of these folks from 800 to 1066, the period under discussion, is available from literary and archeological sources only. The sources, as the Durants note, are Beowulf, the Elder Edda (were there any Younger Eddas?), and the Teutonic mythologies.

    All in all these folks are too Middle American to be believed.

    Scrawler
    August 5, 2005 - 09:14 am
    This may be off the mark a bit, but as I was watching the DVD "Alexander" last night, it struck me that our civilization as we know it today was conceived in the visionary minds like "Alexander the Great." If it weren't for him our world would not exist. He saw a world were men could be free and live in harmony. He may have been a ruthless leader at times as were all the visionary men of history, but it was the fact that most men and women are not visionary and therefore couldn't understand this idea of living with their former conquered enemies as equals that stopped the vision from coming true.

    Alliemae
    August 5, 2005 - 11:14 am
    My BIG SURPRISE is home!!

    When I went to library yesterday to pick up Paglia I asked the librarian if by any chance they had a copy of Story of Civilization-Vol IV and he said there were seven volumes for sale at...are you ready...$1 apiece!! So I said, "Well, I don't have any cash with me but I'll sign an IOU...IN BLOOD!!" He said not to worry he would put them aside and I could come back with the $7 and pick them up later.

    I didn't want to say anything until I got them safely home...didn't want to put the 'evil eye' on myself!!

    They are home now and they start with Vol IV and go through X.

    I'm a happy lady!!

    mabel1015j
    August 5, 2005 - 11:45 am
    how human beings are consistently cruel. Do we have any present-day Scandinavians w/ us? How are "the Danes/Norsemen" perceived from Scandinavian perspective? In the rest of Europe they are invading savages, are they heroes in Scandanavian history?

    Scrawler - are you saying that visionary and cruelty go hand in hand, that we should expect it and expect ordinary people to NOT be visionary? I would disagree w/ the last part of that statement, but you may have something about the cruelty thing - we've already seen many examples in the history we've looked at and then there is Jefferson - slaves, hummmmmm, Ben Franklin? Well, he seemed to be kind to everybody but his own family. Abe Lincoln? He may be close to being an exception, but he did love Gen Grant, maybe he had no choice.......ahhhhh, can we say that these men have had cruelty, oppression thrust upon them?

    Maybe we should give women more of a chance to rule! Have they been different? Elizabeth? Not so good (re: cruelty and oppression, not talking about accomplishments). Maybe when we get to the point that women don't have to pretend to be like men in order to get power, maybe when there is more than one of them at the top they can behave less "masculine" and more "feminine." (I'm talking stereotypes here,)

    How is that going in Finland and Denmark, don't they have a large number of women in power?.........

    Remembering some of Durant's quotes: "Education is the progressive dicovery of our ignorance"

    "It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country" and

    "Tired mothers find that spanking takes less time than reason and penetrates sooner to the seat of memory" .............Jean

    mabel1015j
    August 5, 2005 - 12:04 pm
    Did the Christians come up w/ any new behaviors or practices? The more i learn about "pagan" religions the less unique i find Christian practices, seems as if they incorporated hundreds of already existing behaviors, which we have learned is a smart thing to do to get people coverted.

    Too bad some present day fundamentalists don't recognize the similarity and that debt owed to other religions - we may have less war and intolerance and more peace and kindness.

    After i put pagan in quotes, I realized I was doin it because i have tho't of it as a perjorative term and i didn't know the dictionary definition, maybe it isn't negative, so i looked it up

    Encarta's dictionary: "an offensive term that DELIBERATELY (my caps) insults somebody who does not acknowledge the God of the Bible, Torah or Koran;" a 14th century definition was "non-Christian" and the Latin translation is "villager, civilian."

    Well, we Christian/westerners certainly corrupted that word, didn't we? If you've discussed this before, I apologize for the repetition.....jean

    Justin
    August 5, 2005 - 12:24 pm
    There is nothing unique in Christianity. Every practice, every tenet, is an out growth of prior religions. There is a large debt owed to the religions of the East as well as to the pagan Roman religions. However, the debt reaches even farther back to the religions of the Akadians and Babylonians. The debt to the Jews is enormous.

    marni0308
    August 5, 2005 - 12:26 pm
    I loved this part! What a riot!

    "Unwanted children were exposed to die but once accepted, the child received a judicious compound of discipline and love."....Nice about the unwanted children. I wonder how many were unwanted.

    "Girls learned the arts of the home, including the brewing of ale. Boys learned to swim, ski, work wood and metal, wrestle, row, skate, play hockey (from Danaish Hoek, hook), hunt, and fight with bow and arrow, sword or spear. Jumping was a favorite exercise." I say the boys definitely had more fun. Not fair.

    "Polygamy was practiced by the rich until the thirteenth century." I wonder what brought them around to monogamy?

    "Marriages were arranged by the parents, often through purchase. The free woman could veto such an arrangement but if she married against the will of her parents her husband was declared an outlaw and might legally be slain by her relatives. A man could divorce his wife at will but unless he gave good reson he too was subject to assassination by her family." Hmmm. Not exactly our American way today. I wonder how many took the risks to defy their parents or to get divorced.

    "In general the position of woman was higher in pagan than in later Christian Scandinavia." So, was it Christianity that changed the role of women? Made them more subservient? Reminds me of the Da Vinci Code again.

    MeriJo
    August 5, 2005 - 12:27 pm
    Justin:

    It is disheartening. I presented a perfectly clear explanation of the meaning of the word "chemise". It was used prior to the eighteenth century for that particular garment. Later it was called a "veil". I had no trouble with the word change. I knew what as intended, even if the French word for "veil" is "voile." If you spoke French you would know that a "chemise" was a "shirt" - a covering for the upper body, a "chemisette", a shirtfront or a dicky. In paintings you may have noted that soft cloth that sometimes is draped just below the neck around the upper part of the body and then over the shoulders of some biblical figures. Whoever prepared the reliquary chose the word "veil" over "chemise" because "chemise" has many definitions - none of which are an "undergarment". My source, "Heath's New French Dictionary" really a bit "old" now as I've had it since college.

    I'm happy to let this go. It's probably a fake, anyway.

    Justin
    August 5, 2005 - 12:31 pm
    It is refreshing to hear of women who are mothers of brave sons rather than mothers of sons born in sin. There is something very twisted about our current religious concepts. They tend to degrade mothers rather than honor their role in life.

    marni0308
    August 5, 2005 - 12:32 pm
    Justin: Re birth control...

    My son was about 11 pounds when he was born - natural, not Caesarean. The doctor had no clue and was not prepared to do a Caesarean. Very difficult birth and I could have no more children.

    There were 3 other women in the same hospital who gave birth to children over 10 pounds at the same time I gave birth.

    I read later that this was a newly developing natural birth control. As our population has such a rich food supply available and gets larger and larget with successive generations, babies are born bigger and bigger. Too big to give birth to them. So women will have fewer children. Strange, huh?

    Justin
    August 5, 2005 - 12:41 pm
    I'm sorry, Merijo, disheartning, was not my intent.You were very clear. If you prefer Heath's definition to Websters, so be it. Eloise, will tell you my French is not perfect, but it's not bad either. It's better than my Latin which Ginny will confirm has its limits. I certainly agree, that the Chartres garment is probably a fake.

    MeriJo
    August 5, 2005 - 01:30 pm
    There is a distinct difference between Eastern and Western philosophies, but the absence of war is not one of them.

    The absence of war may be a result of maturity.

    In Gavin Menzies', "1421" "The Year The Chinese Discovered America", Emperor Zhu Di, instructed his admirals to treat any people they found in their travels with courtesy and respect, and life went well for the Chinese. Later when, Vasco Da Gama, arrived in the same location as one of the Chinese admirals had visited earlier, he stormed on land and generally delivered mayhem. Life was no longer the same.

    We know that Chinese society had reached a higher level of sophistication by 1421. There had been continuity in its steady progress to this level of civilization. In Western society continuity had been uneven and although the sophistication and knowledge seen in the early years of the Middle East had reached high levels and moved ever westward, progress had regressed and almost disappeared as people moved ever forward throughout Europe.

    War seemed to have been a quick solution for chiefs and kings to get control of lands and people they wanted. These acquisitions translated to wealth in their minds.

    MeriJo
    August 5, 2005 - 01:51 pm
    mabel 1015:

    You asked:

    Did the Christians come up w/ any new behaviors or practices?

    Yes, they did. They were to consider others as if they were themselves. Turn the other cheek. To lay down one's life for another. To sustain and provide for those less fortunate. To seek not an excess of worldly goods. To uphold the integrity of another.etc.

    This was strange and new. These ideas relied on an individual making a choice between what was a good thing and one not good.

    It's still a hard concept to follow.

    These Christian behaviors were built on behaviors the Jews had developed once they left Sumeria.

    marni0308
    August 5, 2005 - 01:56 pm
    Merijo: I read the National Geographic article about Zheng He, the emperor's admiral. When Zheng He was a little boy in Mongolia (I believe it was Mongolia) the Chinese army plowed in killing and maiming. They killed Zheng He's father and castrated Zheng He when he was about 8 years old and made him a eunuch. How civilized is that?

    Marni

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 5, 2005 - 02:21 pm
    Nowadays a 'chemise' is the name for a shirt. It is 'never' an undergarment and I don't know if it ever was one in the past, but to make a chemise sound as ridiculous as Mary's 'undergarment' is disrespectful of people's beliefs. I never heard of such a thing.

    A veil is sheer fabric such as it is worn on the head of a bride on her wedding day. Women in ancient times wore veils but today we see only Muslim women wear them to cover their faces and body.

    MeriJo
    August 5, 2005 - 02:38 pm
    marni0308:

    You are right, of course, according to our modern standards.

    This was in keeping with the social order of the Chinese upper class as they were employed as eunuchs to mind the harems of the emperors and nobles among other duties.

    My reference was strictly to the way the admirals were told to treat new people. Of course, there was a reason for this. The emperor hoped to include the country as one which paid tribute to China, and they wanted peaceful relations. This would have been better than by force.

    I know you want to read the book so I won't describe it any further

    Justin
    August 5, 2005 - 04:43 pm
    Eloise: Try Webster 3. Undergarment is clearly given as a definition. In fact Chartres Treasury made several references to the garment in that capacity. Today they call it a veil. So I will call it a veil. But in either case the relic is most probably not a relic since every thing that was Mary's went up with her.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 04:54 pm
    It is so heartening to come home after a day's work and find 16 posts! I keep repeating over and over again that while I may be at the steering wheel, it is the engine furnished by all the participants which keeps the vehicle moving. These posts today were marvelous and they were 95% related to the text of the Norsemen.

    Allie:-I am pleased for you that you have all those volumes at such a low price. A caution -- experience has shown here that it is always a temptation for those who own the book to get ahead of the sub-topic we are discussing. Please go at our pace which can be determined either by the GREEN quotes in the Heading (which are temporarily behind time!) or by the posts of others.

    I was married to a French woman for 20 years and knew "chemise" only as meaning a shirt.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 05:11 pm
    Durant continues - for those with the hardcover, we are on Page 505:-

    "Work was held in honor and all classes shared in it.

    "Fishing was a major industry and hunting was a necessity rather than a sport. Picture the power of will and toil that cleared the forests of Sweden and tamed to tillage the frozen slopes of Norway's hills. The wheat fields of Minnesota are the offspring of American soil crossed with Norwegian character.

    "Large estates were few. Scandinavia has excelled in the wide distribution of land among a free peasantry. An unwritten insurance softened disaster. If a farmer's house burned down, his neighbors joined him in rebuilding it. If his cattle were destroyed by disease or an 'act of God,' they contributed to his flocks a number of animals equal to half his loss.

    "Nearly every Northman was a craftsman, especially skilled in wood. The Norse were backward in using iron which came to them only in the eighth century. But they made a variety of strong and handsome tools, weapons, and ornaments of bronze, silver, and gold. Shields damascened swords, rings, pins, harness were often objects of beauty and pride.

    "Norse shipwrights built boats and warships not larger, but apparently sturdier, than those of antiquity -- flat-bottomed for steadiness, sharp in the bow to ram the enemy -- four to six feet deep, sixty to one hundred and eighty feet long -- propelled partly by a sail, mostly by oars -- ten, sixteen or sixty to a side.

    "These simple vessels carried Norse explorers, traders, pirates, and warriors down the rivers of Russia to the Caspian and Black Seas and over the Atlantic to Iceland and Labrador."

    The father of my boyhood chum, Arne Peterson, a Swede, was not just a carpenter. He was a cabinet maker. His productions were a work of art. He was a perfectionist.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 05:27 pm
    Are you interested in the NORWEGIANS IN MINNESOTA?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 05:31 pm
    Here is a detailed article (plus maps) about NORWEGIAN IMMIGRATION to the United States.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 05:37 pm
    Here is a link -- with many connected links -- to photos of SCANDINAVIAN CRAFTS. Be sure to enlarge the photos to appreciate their beauty.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 05:44 pm
    A detailed article (with illustrations) about the VIKING LONGSHIP.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 5, 2005 - 05:48 pm
    Information about the VIKINGS IN LABRADOR.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 5, 2005 - 06:19 pm
    This might be a good time to visit the Sutton Hoo site to see what a long boat looks like and to examine metalic objects that have survived. There are helmets and clasps for garments and some tools available. Some of the clasp work was done in cloisonne.

    marni0308
    August 5, 2005 - 06:39 pm
    A number of years ago, a wonderful film came out based on Vilhelm Moberg´s novel trilogy The Emigrants about the emigration from Sweden to America. "This is the story of a group of people who in 1850 left their homes in Ljuder parish, in the province of Småland, Sweden, and emigrated to North America. They were the first of many to leave their village. They came from a land of small cottages and large families. They were the people of the soil, and they came of a stock which thousands of years had tilled the ground they were leaving." The first words of Vilhelm Moberg´s novel trilogy The Emigrants give a detailed picture of the conditions prevailing at the time of the first emigration in 1850....Here's a good article about the emigration:

    http://www.swemi.nu/eng/from-13218.asp

    marni0308
    August 5, 2005 - 06:43 pm
    Michael Crichton wrote a novel called Eaters of the Dead. The film "The 13th Warrior" was based on it (Antonio Banderas film.) Neither is at all great, but they are fun, esp. if you are a Michael Crichton fan. I remember there is a voyage in a Norse ship in the film Here's a brief review of the book:

    "In 1974 one of Crichton's friends, a college professor, joked about teaching a literature course on "The Great Bores", among which he counted Beowulf. Crichton laudably came to the defense of this classic (see Orrin's review) and decided to try and retell the tale for a modern audience. Eventually he decided to move the setting of the story forward in time to 922 AD so that he could have a historical figure, the Arab traveler Ahmad Ibn Fadlan, narrate it. Ibn Fadlan was an emissary of the Caliph of Bagdad who came into contact with Vikings during his journey into modern Russia and left behind a manuscript detailing his experiences.

    For the purposes of the novel, Crichton has him meet up with a band of Northmen lead by the warrior Buliwyf just as they have been summoned to Hurot Hall to help King Rothgar repel the mysterious and terrifying Eaters of the Dead, a horde of seemingly demonic beasts who attack under cover of night and fog. A soothsaying crone insists that he accompany them as the 13th member of their party. As he finds out later, his inclusion is necessitated by cosmological and numerological superstition:

    I learned that these Northmen have some notion that the year does not fit with exactitude into thirteen passages of the moon, and thus the number thirteen is not stable and fixed in their minds. The thirteenth passage is called magical and foreign, and Herger says, "Thus for the thirteenth man you were chosen as foreign."

    Initially repulsed by their violence and carnality and by their lack of hygiene, the more cultured--even effette--Ibn Fadlan gradually becomes an integral member of the band, developing a particularly good friendship with the affable Herger, and, unlike most of his comrades, survives the repeated savage encounters with the Eaters of the Dead (or wendol, as they are also known) to become the official chronicler of their adventure."

    http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/370/Eaters%20of%20th.htm

    marni0308
    August 5, 2005 - 06:48 pm
    As we are writing, the Minnesota Twins are playing the Boston Red Sox. I have to go check out the score.

    Justin
    August 5, 2005 - 09:45 pm
    The Sweedes first came to America in 1650 under the leadership of Peter Minuit. They built a fort on Delaware Bay at the foot of New Jersey.After ten years of successful settlement in the area, they were attacked by Peter Styvesant of the Dutch West India Company and subsequently by the English at Cromwell's direction. There are remnants of their settlement in Northern Delaware.

    Justin
    August 5, 2005 - 09:49 pm
    I guess we need Mal to find the Sutton Hoo treasures.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 02:26 am
    "The Vikings divided themselves into jarls or earls, bondi or peasant proprietors, and thralls or slaves. Like the guardians in Plato's republic, they sternly taught their children that each man's class was a decree of the gods which only the faithless would dare to change.

    "Kings were chosen from royal blood, the provincial governors from the jarls. Along with this frank acceptance of monarchy and aristocracy as natural concomitants of war and agriculture, went a remarkable democracy by which the landowners acted as legislators and judges in a local hus-thing or meeting of householders, a village mot, a provincial thing or assembly and a national alithing or parliament.

    "It was a government of laws and not merely of men. Violence was the exception, judgment the rule. Feud revenge incarnadined the sagas but even in their Viking Age of blood and iron the wergild was replacing private vengeance and only the sea-rovers were men with no law but victory or defeat.

    "Harsh punishments were used to persuade to order and peace men hardened by the struggle with nature. Adulterers were hanged or trodden to death by horses. Incendiaries were burned at the stake. Patricides were suspended by the heels next to a live wolf simiarly hung. Rebels against the government were torn asunder by horses driven apart or were dragged to death behind a wild bull.

    "Perhaps in these barbarities the law had not yet replaced but only socialized revenge. Even piracy at last gave way to law. The robbers subsided into traders and substituted wits for force. Much of the sea law of Europe is Norse in origin, transmitted through the Hanseatic League.

    "Under Magnus the Good (1035-47) the laws of Norway were inscribed on a parchment called from the its color the 'Gray Gose.' This still survives and reveals enlightened edicts for the control of weights and measures, the policing of markets and ports, the state succor of the sick and the poor.

    Once again "class" differences appear. Could one call this culture civilized?

    Robby

    Bubble
    August 6, 2005 - 02:28 am
    Sutton Hoo treasures on show
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/1870078.stm

    Sutton Hoo Room
    http://csis.pace.edu/grendel/projs4a/sutton.htm

    Anglo-Saxon and Viking Age swords
    http://www.regia.org/sword.htm

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 02:44 am
    A modern-day DESCENDANT OF THE VIKINGS is about to have international influence.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 6, 2005 - 04:08 am
    Very good article Robby, especially when he said: "So when I meet with the empty looks and glassy eyes, I say, "This glass of fresh, clean water is a common sight for us. But to two billion people in the world, it is a luxury" to the United Nations Assembly.

    Alliemae
    August 6, 2005 - 09:05 am
    I was ready to get into the 'chemise' discussion then realized I was thinking of 'camisole'...

    Robby...I will try to be as relevent to the points of the group's current discussion in my contribution/postings as everyone else...promise...

    Sunknow
    August 6, 2005 - 09:39 am
    Robby: "Once again "class" differences appear. Could one call this culture civilized?"

    It depends on what "class" you belonged to.

    When they "taught their children that each man's class was a decree of the gods which only the faithless would dare to change", it was their own class they were protecting.

    That system was called civilization. It is often seen even in our time, but the class system has weakened, and many pretenders now reach the top. I doubt there is a country, or even small city, my own included, that is not filled with examples of both the old and new systems.

    The "jarls" keep trying to maintain control.

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 10:27 am
    Sun:-Are you saying that if you belong to one particular class, you are civilized, but if you belong to another, you are not?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 12:02 pm
    In Post 593, Durant tells us that "many children learned to read and write" in the Viking culture. How do you see that comparing with our current attitude toward education? You may find this ARTICLE enlightening.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    August 6, 2005 - 12:19 pm
    Durant in Robby's #612

    "Large estates were few. Scandinavia has excelled in the wide distribution of land among a free peasantry. An unwritten insurance softened disaster. If a farmer's house burned down, his neighbors joined him in rebuilding it. If his cattle were destroyed by disease or an 'act of God,' they contributed to his flocks a number of animals equal to half his loss.

    I liked this development in the character of the Scandinavians among all the horrendous practices they had while punishing others and fighting. This was a great example of caring for one's neighbor. Civilization arrives in small steps.

    As I read this, I was reminded of our own early Midwestern history when a barn-raising became a social event. Was the pot-luck supper invented then?

    Justin
    August 6, 2005 - 03:03 pm
    I concur Merijo; " Civilization arrives in small steps". Civilization is not a black and white, either/or, phenomenon. There are degrees of civilization. The four elements constituting civilization; economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge or the arts have variable weights in the formula that produces civilization. A society may have abundant crops and quality leaders supported by a scientific community but a set of laws that punishes wrong doers by death.Such a society is civilized but less so than one that attempts to rehabilitate wrong doers.

    The brutality and inventiveness of the Nowegian punishment system is only one facet of the civilization equation. They had a law code. That is the first rung on the way up the ladder to civilization. The American Supreme Court just determined it to be wrong to execute the mentally retarded. We have taken a step up on the way to civilization. (When governor of Texas, our current executive did not hesitate to execute a mentally retarded person.)

    Alliemae
    August 6, 2005 - 03:13 pm

    Sunknow
    August 6, 2005 - 03:21 pm
    No, Robby, I guess I wouldn't say that one particular class is more civilized than the other. But their laws (and ours today) may not have been enforced equally.

    I may be confusing "Civilization" with "Order", when referring to the Upper Classes struggling to control the Lower Classes, and daring them to step out of line (or move up socially). As we have seen, it was sometimes a fatal move. But it was also sometimes fatal for those in control.

    I do suspect that harsh punishment was delivered to the lower classes more often than to the upper classes. For instance, I doubt many of those "In Power" were hanged or trodden to death for adultery. At least, not until a new Power-seeker arrived and wanted to take over. Then harsh punishment would be delivered to him, too, by new pretender.

    Their culture was not necessarily civilized yet. In fact, I some times think our culture is not totally civilized yet, either. At most.....we see civilization expanding as we progress through time

    Sun

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 03:28 pm
    Read Durant's quote in brown in the Heading which starts with "Civilization begins..."

    Robby

    Justin
    August 6, 2005 - 03:28 pm
    The Georgia people who are pushing for school to start in September rather than mid August have much to support their position, The commercial establishment concurs. The loss of young workers supporting the summer entertainment industry forces business closure earlier than necessary. Extention of the middle school day from 9 to 3 until 9 to 4 might bring more beneficial results.

    Alliemae
    August 6, 2005 - 03:30 pm
    "How do you see that ['...many children learned to read and write...'] comparing with our current attitude toward education?"

    What I noticed in the Durant description of education is that the reading and writing was separated from various skills of their everyday lives that each gender of child was taught. So the children in that time learned life relevent skills in general, with many of them learing to also read and write. (#583)

    The major industries, home building, crafts--especially in wood, tool making--albeit in metals other than iron, and shipbuilding (#612) point out the importance of the life skills learned, at least by the boys, while the girls learned the skills they needed to keep the home running well.

    In the article (#631) it seems that less emphasis is placed on what is taught and learned than on logistics, economics, and time attended. I didn't see much about what the difference in hours would contribute to curriculum except maybe for the end of term testing being before the holiday break.

    I'm not sure how much longer into the future the 'holiday' break will be pertinent to all the school children because in our diverse nation there are many winter holidays, not always on the same dates.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 04:17 pm
    "Religion helped law and the family to turn the animal into a citizen.

    "The gods of the Teutonic pantheon were not mythology to the Norse but actual divinities feared or loved and intimately connected with mankind by a thousand miracles and amours.

    "In the wonder and terror of primitive souls all the forces and major embodiments of nature had become personal deities and the more powerful of these required a sedulous propitiation that did not stop short of human sacrifice.

    "It was a crowded Valhalla. Twelve gods and telve goddesses -- divers giants (Jotuns), fates (Norns), and Valkyries -- messengers and ale-bearers of the gods. And a sprinkling of witches, elves, and trolls.

    "The gods were magnified mortals, subject to birth, hunger, sleep, sickness, passion, sorrow, death. They excelled men only in size, longevity and power. Odin (German Woden), the father of all the gods, had lived near the Sea of Azov in Caesar's time. There he had built Asgard, or the Garden of the Gods, for his family and his counselors. Suffering from land hunger, he conquered north Europe.

    "He was not unchallenged nor omnipotent. Loki scolded him like a fishwife and Thor quite ignored him. He wandered over the earth seeking wisdom and bartered an eye for a drink at wisdom's well. Then he invented letters, taught his people writing, poetry, and the arts, and gave them laws.

    "Anticipating the end of his earthly life, he called an assembly of Swedes and Goths, wounded himself in nine places, died, and returned to Asgard to live as a god."

    Does religion, indeed, turn the animal into a citizen?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 04:25 pm
    Here is the GENEALOGY TABLE of the Norse gods.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 6, 2005 - 04:29 pm
    Read THIS and become an expert on Norse mythology.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 6, 2005 - 06:00 pm
    VALKYRIE

    Scandinavian Mythology, pre-Christian religious beliefs of the Scandinavian People.

    It makes me think of the opera "La Valkyrie" by Richard Wagner, unfortunately I don't like music by Wagner.

    MeriJo
    August 6, 2005 - 08:17 pm
    robby:

    Does religion, indeed, turn the animal into a citizen?

    In my opinion, it doesn't. There is more needed to turn the animal into a citizen. There needs to be an understanding of good versus evil. And that covers a lot of territory. There needs to be a sense of faith that certain behavior will bring about a serene environment - a sense of happiness and a feeling of fulfillment and accomplishment.

    In those days, there occurred many events of trial and error, of societal indignation about punishment and the strategy to bring about change there. That was going to be slow, indeed. It did help when the learned monks came and brought some knowledge and ways to spread that knowledge. But, then, there was always the unknown of human behavior, the weather and disease.

    It seems to me that a lot of work was done by early people to arrive to a semblance of civility.

    JoanK
    August 6, 2005 - 08:28 pm
    Does religeon turn animals into humans? Note that Jane Goodall claims that her chimpanzees do rain dances. Interpret that however you want.

    Justin
    August 6, 2005 - 10:20 pm
    The "Golden Rule' has always been a tenet of religion.We have seen the rule again and again in the great variety of civilizations. . It is, in my judgement, the only element of religion that is useful. It is a rule that turns animals into citizens.

    Bubble
    August 7, 2005 - 12:41 am
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

    Golden rule. I always thought it was not religion as much as human decency.

    There is so much in Norse mythology that I never heard of. Thanks for those rich links.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 7, 2005 - 03:54 am
    As we are once again discussing religion, this time the beliefs of the Northmen, and asking ourselves the importance of religion in advancing toward "civilization," I thought it might help us to back up and take a longer perspective. So I am re-posting here the very first post I wrote as we entered this volume on August 27th almost a full year ago. I will continue with Durant's comments about Norse "mythology" but please file the following paragraphs in the back of your mind.

    WELCOME back, "old timers" and a very special welcome to those newcomers who are joining our "family". You will very quickly understand why we consider ourselves a family. Although we all have the same serious purpose -- trying to answer Voltaire's question in the Heading above -- we also suffer from a contagious disease. We seem unable to repress our tendency to laugh, giggle, and sometimes tease each other -- all in good spirit of course - and not straying from the topic. Somehow this FUN approach leads to our better understanding of Mankind's progress.

    We are ready to move on. The following Foundation has been laid.

    Many of us here have been watching with fascination for almost three years the development of the potters wheel in Sumeria, the building of the pyramids in Ancient Egypt, the creation of the Code of Hammurabi in Babylonia, the start of letters and libraries in Assyria, and the influence of the prophets in Judea.

    We observed the construction of imperial highways in Persia, the formation of the caste system in India, the coming of culture to China, the powers of the shogun in Japan, the Heroic and Golden Ages of Ancient Greece followed by the Hellenistic dispersion, and the rapid expansion of a small crossroads town named Rome to the ultimate all-encompassing power of the Roman Empire.

    Throughout that progress toward civilization what we now call "religion" was ever-present. We felt the supernatural influence of sky gods, the sun god, plant gods, animal gods, sex gods, Osiris, Isis, Horus, Marduk, Ishtar, Tammuz, Polytheism, Henotheism, Yahveh, Zarathustra, Mithra, Naga, Hanuman, Nandi, Varuna, Prithivi, Parjanya, Agni, Vayu, Rudra, Indra, Ushas, Sita, Vishnu, Krishna, and Buddha. Add on to that the worship of ancestors, yin and yang, T'ien, the philosophy of Confucius, Shang-Ti, the doctrine of Lao-tze, and the Taoist faith.

    Then came Zeus, Athena, Demeter, Hera, Artemis, Poseidon, Dionysus, Hermes, Priapus, Aphrodite, and countless others who competed with but finally lost to the less supernatural advancement of the philosophies of Xenophanes, Parmenides, Plato, Zeno, Philolaus, Leucippus, Democritus, Empedocles, Pericles, Protagoras, Socrates and Aristotle.

    The Roman Empire, however, shunned the philosophies of Greece and re-introducing us to gods, gave us Jupiter, Vesta, the Lar, the Penates, Janus, Juno, Cuba, Abeona, Fabulina, Tellus, Mars, Pomona, Faunus, Pales, Sterculus, Saturn, Ceres, Fornax, Vulcan, Minerva, Venus, Diana, Hercules, Pluto, Mercury, and Neptune.

    Religion had returned in full force, bringing with it, even as Rome lay dying, a belief in monotheism growing out of Ancient Judea.

    Those joining us for the first time will have no problem easing right in to the discussion without having read the previous three volumes. Each book stands by itself. Anyone with an interest in the Middle Ages will feel immediately comfortable.

    Durant warns us:- "We are tempted to think of the Middle Ages as a fallow interval between the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (476) and the discovery of America. We must remind ourselves that the followers of Abelard called themselves moderni, and that the bishop of Exeter, in 1287, spoke of his century as moderni tempores, 'modern times.' The boundary between 'medieval' and 'modern' is always advancing."

    To those of us living in the 21st Century, the Middle Ages appear close enough to visualize and to compare with our own culture. Could it be because some of us still practice the same religion that took hold two thousand years ago? Is it because the language coming out of the "Moyen Age" has words, phrases and spelling close enough for us to decipher? Maybe the names and events of the more recent time ring a louder bell than the muffled tones of more primitive cultures.

    This volume contains a thousand years in a thousand pages.

    It is a history of medieval civilization -- Christian, Islamic, and Judaic -- from Constantine (A.D. 325) to Dante (A.D. 1300). It gives a unified picture, and perhaps a new and wider perspective, of medieval life -- observing Christian civilization against the background of an Islamic civilization of great richness and complexity -- seeing Christian philosophy, and viewing the Crusades -- not as the assault of civilization upon barbarism -- but as the contact of a young culture with one of greater maturity and subtlety.

    The Age of Faith aims to be philosophical history. The author seeks to explain causes, currents, and results and to find in events a logic and sequence that may illuminate our own day.

    Durant comforts previous readers by saying:- "Readers familiar with 'Caesar and Christ' will find it easy to pick up the threads of the present narrative. Chronology compels us to begin with those facets of the quadripartite medieval civilization which are most remote from our normal interest -- the Byzantine and the Islamic. The Christian reader will be surprised by the space given to the Moslem culture, and the Moslem scholar will mourn the brevity with which the brilliant civilization of medieval Islam has been summarized. A persistent effort has been made to be impartial, to see each faith and culture from its own point of view."

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 7, 2005 - 04:20 am
    Wasn't that an amazing list of gods and goddesses? The dividing line, it seems to me, was that point in history where we moved into deciding to have just one god -- calling polytheism paganism and being uncivilized. So now we fight over which one is the one. Progress.

    Let us now continue to examine the beliefs of the Norsemen.

    "In Iceland Thor was greater than Odin. He was the god of thunder, war, labor, and laws.

    "The black clouds were his frowning brows -- the thunder was his voice -- the lightning was his hammer flung from the skies. The Norse poets, perhaps already as skeptical as Homer, had much fun with him, like the Greeks with Hephaestus or Heracles. They represented him in all sorts of predicaments and toils. Nevertheless he was so loved that nearly every fifth Icelander usurped his name -- Thorolf, Thorwald, Thorstein....

    "Great in legend, minor in worship, was Odin's son Baldur, 'dazzling in form and feature -- mildest, wisest, and most eloquent' of the gods. The early missionaries were tempted to identify him with Christ.

    "He had a terrible dream of his impending death and told the gods of it. The goddess Frigga exacted an oath from all minerals, animals, and plants that none would injure him. His glorious body thereafter repelled all hurtful objects, so that the gods amused themselves by hurling at him stones and darts, axes and swords. All weapons were turned away and left him scatheless.

    "But Frigga had neglected to pry an oath of innocuousness from 'a little shrub called mistletoe' as being too feeble to hurt any man. Loke, the irreverent mischief-maker among the gods, cut off a twig of it and persuaded a blind deity to throw it at Baldur. Pierced with it, Baldur expired. His wife Nep died of a broken heart and was burned on the same pyre with Baldur and his gorgeously caparisoned horse."

    Aren't the "little" things of life the ones that often seem to get us down?

    Robby

    Alliemae
    August 7, 2005 - 04:49 am
    Re: Baldur

    I also think it's interesting how ancient concepts continue on, as in:

    ...and then, in 1938, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster for National Comics (today DC Comics) created SUPERMAN...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman

    (not being irreverent or disrespectful of the gods of others...merely an impression which came to me in reading the attributes of Baldur)

    It is also interesting to me how there seems to be a natural tendency of human beings to 'deify' things they can't control or don't understand. Notice, as well, how much of this pertains to weather and climatic conditions, as in Thor, God of Thunder, as well as other celestial phenomena.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 7, 2005 - 05:27 am
    Here is an absolutely fascinating with its detail article about BALDUR.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 7, 2005 - 05:36 am
    Here is what we "wise" people of the 21st century "think" cause LIGHTNING AND THUNDER.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 7, 2005 - 05:46 am
    Here is a message directly from Mal, not thru her daughter, Dorian. I emailed her that I saw no reason why, after she is feeling better, than she could not continue with her previous Senior Net activites with her laptop.

    Sunday

    Dorian and Jim hooked up my computer so I can use it while lying in bed. Posting doesn't seem easy yet.

    Right now it looks as if I won't be coming back to this house after a stay at the nursing home. Circumstances in this family are such that I'll very likely be living there permanently. This time I take my computer with me. I can't say I look forward to this change

    Have a really good day today, everybody.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 7, 2005 - 06:03 am
    I am very sorry about that Robby, please tell her I am sorry to read that she might not come back home to live. If she can use her computer where she is going, it might be less painful, I will keep her in my prayers that she will be as without pain as she can possibly be.

    Bubble
    August 7, 2005 - 06:52 am
    lightning: what a waste of energy!

    Mal... the sitting at this or that desk does not matter if you can keep your interests intact and keep in touch with your active world. Internet and the computer allow that. Good luck! Bubble

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 7, 2005 - 10:17 am
    For a few days around Labor Day I will be traveling to Durham, NC, to visit with Mal, Dorian, Bubble (who is coming over from Israel after a visit in Europe) and a friend of Bubble's.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    August 7, 2005 - 11:33 am
    I am sorry, too, to hear about Mal's need to make such a move. I hope she will heal quickly and have as little pain as possible.

    Sunknow
    August 7, 2005 - 12:37 pm
    Mal - Sorry you may not return home to stay. Keep your spirits up. Take your PC with you and come back here as soon as you can to take your usual place. We'll be watching for you, and waiting....

    Sun

    Scrawler
    August 7, 2005 - 01:21 pm
    I too have been forced to make a change in my life. For almost ten years now I've lived with a magnificant forrest as my backyard. But now [thanks to our government] they are going to tear down my apartment and build a parking garage, so I'm forced to move in town. I've been threating to fall under a bulldozer, so my family is moving me very soon (like the next couple of weeks - I fear my son-in-law does not want to see me on the six o'clock news.) I can't tell you how much I'll miss my trees and the animals I've come to know and love. I'm moving closer to my family and doctors, but I've been alone for so long it's going to get some getting use to. Don't let your move change you Mal, we will all be connected via - our computers. May you find some peace wherever you are.

    When we talk about civilization, I think we have to keep in mind what time period we are talking about. At the time period we are talking about their civilization centered around agriculture, so their laws etc centered around agriculture. In our time our prioties have changed and so we have different results in our lives. I am reminded of a commerical, [the product they are trying to sell escapes me] but they show a bunch of Vikings trying to adopt to our way of life. Ivan the Terrible drives a children's train in a toy store etc. This is an example of, perhaps, how difficult it would be for someone in the past to live in our time.

    marni0308
    August 7, 2005 - 05:41 pm
    Baldr the Beautiful.....Any relationship to "Bald is Beautiful"?

    Scrawler: Sorry about your home and forced move. Anything to do with the infamous "eminent domain" that's a big issue these days?

    mabel1015j
    August 7, 2005 - 06:06 pm
    Being religious and being good citizens have nothing to do w/ one another, altho a religious person might be a good citizen.

    Being moral gives one a step toward being a good citizen, but one can be moral w/out being religious and we all know that being religious does not make one moral.......I won't reiterate all those stories.

    Actually after reading Robby's first post of the series and Bubbles post about the Golden Rule brings to mind the thought that a sense of humor added to the idea of the golden rule is what turns animals into good people/citizens!........jean

    Malryn (Mal)
    August 7, 2005 - 06:41 pm
    Thank you. It's nice to know you have friends. Now I'm going to read some posts and see if I can think of anything to add to this discussion.

    Mal

    JoanK
    August 7, 2005 - 07:24 pm
    MAL: I'm sorry that you have to move: I hope it proves a good move for you. the wonderful thing about the internet is that you can take your friends with you. Please do: we miss you.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:12 am
    "The Valkyries -- 'Choosers of the Slain' -- were empowered to decree the death date of each son.

    "Those men who died basely were thrust down into the realms of Hel, the goddess of the dead.

    "Those who died in battle were led by the Valkyries to Valhalla -- 'Hall of the Chosen.' There, as favorite sons of Odin, they were reincarnated in strength and beauty to spend their days in manly battle and their nights in drinking ale.

    "But (says late Norse mythology) the time came when the Joruns -- monstrous demons of disorder and destruction -- declared war upon the gods and fought with them to mutual extinction. In this Twilight of the Gods all the universe fell to ruin -- not merely sun and planets and stars but, at the last, Valhalla itself and all its warriors and deities.

    "Only Hope survived -- that in the movement of slow time a new earth would form, a new heaven, a better justice, and a higher god than Odin or Thor.

    "Perhaps that mighty fable symbolized the victory of Christianity and the hardy blows that two Olafs struck for Christ. Or had the Viking poets come to doubt -- and bury -- their gods?"

    I am wondering -- do the beliefs that people have in the action of their divinities reflect the condition of the lives they are having on earth?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:18 am
    Some comments about the VALKYRIES.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:22 am
    Here is a PAINTING OF THE VALKYRIES. Allow time for downloading.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:29 am
    A painting of a VALKYRIE CARRYING THE HONORED DEAD.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:36 am
    Here is an excellent link with embedded links telling not only about the Valkyries but explaining NORSE BELIEFS IN DETAIL.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:44 am
    A description of VALHALLA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:50 am
    Here is the Norse belief of the ORIGINAL CREATION. It is fascinating. Be sure to read this.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 03:57 am
    What is RAGNAROK?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 04:02 am
    How does the German composer WAGNER fit into all of this?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 04:08 am
    The influence of Norse mythology on MUSIC AND LITERATURE.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 04:18 am
    The influence of Norse beliefs on TOLKIEN. Takes a while to download. You may want to scroll immediately to the bottom for conclusions.

    Robby

    Alliemae
    August 8, 2005 - 09:54 am
    Hi Robby,

    What splendid paintings! And thank you for the definition of Valkyries.

    Ragnorak: "Ragnorak, the gods 'final conflict with the giants,..." "...the Twilight of the Gods."

    And re: Wagner: Gotterdammerung (Twilight of the Gods"--the last of Wagner's four operas that comprise "The King of Nibelung." The title is a German translation of the Old Norse RAGNAROK, or Norse prediction of the end of the world. It was said that "Wagner's account of this apolcalypse diverges significantly from his Old Norse sources."

    The influence of Norse mythology in music, espedially Wagner, and in Tolkien are fascinating. A new view is made possible in learning, when led to see the connections between the arts and mythologies as you have led us.

    In answer to your question in post #663, "I am wondering--do the beliefs that people have in the action of their divinities reflect the condition of the lives they are living on earth." I would quote from The Mythology of J.R.R. Tolkien.

    "Mythology, however, is not fantasy: the purpose of mythology is to provide a culture with an acceptable explanation for how that culture's world came to be."

    In brief, we human beings, in light of our reasoning faculties, have seemed to always had to 'create' both superior and inferior beings to pass responsibility for both good and bad events and feelings in our lives which we did not understand. We seem to have noticed from the beginning that we have impulses, the consequences of which have turned out too good for us to take full credit for; so by the same token we don't have to take blame for things that don't turn out so well. We consider ourselves to be the superior of all the beings yet recognize our helplessness in the face of things we consider as having power over us, weather, wild beasts, wild impulses to name a few.

    Best way to avoid claiming responsibility...invent gods and demons, i.e. mythologies.

    Bubble
    August 8, 2005 - 12:34 pm
    Renovators in Egypt say they find oldest monk cell

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050808/sc_nm/egypt_monastery_dc

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 8, 2005 - 05:20 pm
    I will hold off on posting another of Durant's text to give everyone time to react to the previous one.

    Robby

    Sunknow
    August 8, 2005 - 08:21 pm
    The Valkyries: The beautiful young women chose the bravest of the slain warriors to be escorted to Odin's hall.

    Today young terrorist die with bombs strapped around their bodies, believing in a religion that promises young women in a "heavenly reward".

    Christians believe the righteous will sit at the right hand of God.

    All seek the promise of heavenly rewards.

    Sun

    Justin
    August 8, 2005 - 11:54 pm
    Christians hearing about the way the world started in the North might well say, "How silly to think that a giant man and giant cow gave birth to three sons who killed the old man and from his blood came the waters of the world and from his flesh the came the earth. His skull formed the arc of heaven and his brains formed the clouds. His hair form the trees.

    Northmen listening to the Christian tale of the world's beginning might well have said," How silly to think that the world could be created in six days by one God and that two people with a snake and an apple, were able to populate the world

    There will be peace in the world when all people can be content with the knowledge that the origin of the world is unknown and that testable hypotheses can lead to an acceptable explanation. The tales of the Norsemen and the Christians about the worlds beginnings lead nowhere. They are dead end tales that promote rivalry and many times have led to warfare.

    Stories of the end of life have also inspired suicidal martyrdom and human conflict. The Norse warrior sees his end in the Halls of Odin escorted by the valkyries. The Christian warrior martyr sees his reward at the right hand of God. The Muslim warrior martyr sees his reward in heaven with seventy virgins. These are the benefits of suicidal martyrdom.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 9, 2005 - 03:53 am
    "It was a marvelous mythology, second only to the Greek in fascination.

    "The oldest form in which it has come down to us is in those strange poems to which error has given the name of Edda. In 1643 a bishop discovered in the Royal Library of Copenhagen a manuscript containing some old Icelandic poems. By a double mistake he called them the Edda of Saemund the Wise (c.1056-1133), an Icelandic scholar-priest.

    "It is now generally agreed that the poems were composed in Norway, Iceland, and Greenland by unknown authors at unknown dates between the eighth and twelfth centuries, that Saemund may have collected, but did not write, them and that Edda was not their name.

    "But time sanctions error as well as theft and compromises by calling the poems the Poetic or Elder Edda. Most of them are narrtive ballads of the old Scandinavian or Germanic heroes or gods. Here for the first time we meet with Sigurd the Volsung and other heroes, heroines, and villains destined to take more definite form in the Volsungasaga and the Nibelungenlied.

    "The most powerful of the Edda poems is the Voluspa, wherein the prophetess Voilva describes with somber and majestic imagery the creation of the world, its coming destruction, and its ultimate regeneration."

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 9, 2005 - 05:29 am
    What can be more thrilling than for millions of people to see the actual safe landing of the space shuttle Discovery on television and to me this is certainly a sign that civilization has progressed.

    There are different elements in what we call Civilization. Human behavior is only one of these elements and what humans do to advance science is separate from how they use these scientific advancement.

    I am happy that I have lived long enough to see the great advancement of space exploration.

    Bravo America you have done it again

    Alliemae
    August 9, 2005 - 05:41 am
    I too waited, holding my breath at times and am so very relieved and happy and proud. Mostly I'm proud of the committment, dedication and tenacity of NASA teams.

    I was happy to hear John Glenn explaining that the money needed to make the space program more complete was in the millions and not the billions. We have so many needs: feeding the hungry, education, finding cures and other scientific research. But since we seem to need this NASA project I'm glad it's less expensive than say, the Iraq war has become.

    Alliemae
    August 9, 2005 - 06:06 am
    I, on the other hand, was impressed by some of the similarities between the two.

    "Before that nothing existed, only soundless, endless nothing."

    "And the earth was without sound, and void." _____________ Land appears and waters...and then vegetation... _____________

    Trees in both stories although ascribed different meanings.

    Re: Ash and Elm --Ash=male --Elm=female

    Interesting to me:

    Ash: a supple and strong wood used in making weapons, tool handles, home and ship building--all the things the men were doing.

    Elm: a tree with spreading leaf-filled branches...sheltering...nurturing...woman.

    Justin
    August 9, 2005 - 01:56 pm
    Alliemae: I agree. There are similarites. Of course, all these creation myths begin with nothing, emptiness. There is also an intresting similarity with the Greek myths, in that they both, Norse and Greek, produce giants as the first to arrive on the planet and to rule the earth. They all seem to generate a man and a woman to get things going. The woman always seems to come second and as a male derivative.

    Alliemae
    August 9, 2005 - 06:25 pm
    Justin, I hear what you're saying.

    There are also other mythologies...can't think of the examples at the moment...mostly from ancient, pre-patriarchical societies that do start with a woman first. Geez...I think I could go for an entire course on mythologies.

    I am still impressed by some of the similarities, even by societies that were not aware of the mythologies of other cultures. It is of some significance, in fact, there are studies that deal with the psycho-history of societies which I would love also to explore further now that I have the time and am not stuck in a 'curriculum'...Alliemae

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 9, 2005 - 06:48 pm
    "The literature of Scandinavia in this period doubtless exaggerates the violence of Viking society, as journalism and history, luring the reader with the exceptional, miss the normal flow of human life.

    "Nevertheless the hard conditions of early Scandinavia compelled a struggle for existence in which only men of the toughest fiber could survive. A Nietzschean ethic of unscrupulous courage rose out of ancient customs of feud and revenge and the lawless piracy of ungoverned seas. One Viking asked of another:-'Tell me what faith you are of.' Came the reply:-'I believe in my own strength.'

    "Gold Harald wanted the throne of Norway and proposed to get it by force. His friend Haakon advised him:-'Consider with thyself what thou art man enough to undertake, for to accomplish such a purpose requires a man bold and firm who will stick at neither good nor evil to accomplish what is intended.'

    "Some of these men found such pleasure in battle as almost anesthetized their wounds. Some went into a battle frenzy known as berserksgangr -- 'the berserk's way.' The berserkers -- 'bear shirters' -- were champions who rushed into combat without shirts of mail and fought and howled like animals, bit their shields in fury and then, the battle over, fell into a coma of exhaustion.

    "Only the brave would enter Valhalla and all sins would be forgiven to him who died for his group in war.

    "So trained in hardship and wild games, the 'men of the fjords' rowed out and conquered kingdoms for themselves in Russia, Pomerania, Frisia, Normandy, England, Ireland, Iceland, Greenland, Italy, and Sicily.

    "These ventures were not invasions by masses of soldiery like the Moslem hijad or the Magyar flood. They were the reckless sallies of mere handfuls of men who thought all weakness criminal and all strength good, who hungered for land, women, wealth, and power and felt a divine right to share in the fruits of the earth.

    "They began like pirates and ended like statesmen. Rollo gve a creative order to Normandy. William the Conqueror to England, Roger II to Sicily. They mingled their fresh blood of the north, like an energizing hormone, with that of peoples made torpid by rural routine.

    "History seldom destroys that which does not deserve to die. The burning of the tares makes for the next sowing of a richer soil."

    And mankind moves on.

    Is it true that journalism, luring the reader with the exceptional, is missing the normal flow of human life?

    If history is not destroying that which does not deserve to die, then just what is it preserving?

    Robby

    Alliemae
    August 9, 2005 - 06:52 pm
    Hi Robby,

    There are so many references online regarding Voluspa. Will you be posting a link?...do you want us to pursue this line?

    I did notice that the Catholic church has some different commentary than some of the others as to how the mythology came to have similarities with the Judeo-Christian version.

    Thanks, Alliemae

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 9, 2005 - 06:54 pm
    Alliemae:-I have no idea what Voluspa is. Feel free to follow up in any direction or bring in any link so long as you stay close to the sub-topic of the Northmen.

    Robby

    Alliemae
    August 9, 2005 - 07:03 pm
    Hi again Robby,

    Looks like while you were putting in your post I was online searching Voluspa and the Song of Sybil!

    When I first read your reading in #685 and saw "...as journalism and history, luring the reader with the exceptional, miss the normal flow of human life." And I thought, now that bears further thought!

    So I guess I'll just put on my 'thinking cap' and get on with your posted reading!! Alliemae

    Alliemae
    August 9, 2005 - 07:17 pm
    Robby...the following is from your posting # 679:

    "The most powerful of the Edda poems is the Voluspa, wherein the prophetess Voilva describes with somber and majestic imagery the creation of the world, its coming destruction, and its ultimate regeneration.

    Robby"

    This is where I got 'Voluspa'...and since we have been discussing Creation Mythologies I thought it might be important.

    I only use your postings for this group Robby since you cautioned me re: reading outside of the postings when I excitedly reported that I got seven volumes of SOC for $7. (postings # 596 and 611)

    Alliemae

    JoanK
    August 9, 2005 - 08:42 pm
    ALLIEMAE: don't let staying on topic make you too tongue-tied. We all try to do it, and none of us (including you, Robby) succeed 100% of the time.

    "History seldom destroys that which does not deserve to die". That's a pretty harsh statement. What does "deserve to die" mean? What about a very rich culture, that is not as strong militarily as another. Would we say that they "deserve to die"?

    Justin
    August 9, 2005 - 09:25 pm
    Many worthwhile societies have died,been buried, and ignored by history until an archeologist has dug them up, dusted them off, and made them available for historians to examine again. Sumeria was such a society.

    3kings
    August 9, 2005 - 10:17 pm
    Justin You are right. Several societies have been destroyed by more military powers, to civilization's loss. I think that one of the great tragedies of mankind was the sudden and abrupt end to the Greek advance, following the Roman takeover.

    The first tentative steps toward Democracy were halted, for perhaps 2000 years. And the same maybe said of scientific endeavour. ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 02:50 am
    Alliemae:-Apparently I had typed that post shortly after I got up in the morning and typed about "Voluspa" before my brain had caught up with my fingers. Here is info about the VOLUSPA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 02:59 am
    Germany

    566-1106

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 03:19 am
    "The Norse irruptions were the final phase of those barbarian invasions that had stemmed from Germany five centuries before and had shattered the Roman Empire into the nations of Western Europe. What had become of the Germans who had remained in Germany?

    "The exodus of great tribes -- Goths, Vandals, Burgundians, Franks, Lombards -- had left Germany underpopulated for a time. The Slavic Wends moved westward from the Baltic states to fill the vacuum.

    "By the sixth century the Elbe was the ethnic, as it is at present the political frontier, between the Slavic and the Eastern world. West of the Elbe and the Saale were the surviving German tribes -- Saxons in north central Germany -- East Franks along the lower Rhine -- Thuringians between them -- Bavarians (once Marcomanni) the middle Danube -- and Swabians (once Suevi) along and between the upper Rhine and upper Danube, and along the eastern Jura and the northern Alps.

    "There was no Germany, only German tribes.

    "Charlemagne for a time gave them the unity of conquest and the essentials of a common order but the collapse of the Carolingian Empire loosened these bonds and until Bismarck tribal consciousness and local particularism fought every centralizing influence and weakened a people uncomfortably shut in by enemies, the Alps, and the sea."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 03:33 am
    This MAP of Europe shows the "Germany" of that period.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 03:36 am
    Here is the definition of IRRUPTION.

    Robby

    Scrawler
    August 10, 2005 - 08:43 am
    I can't agree with Durant's statement that history destroys only what needed to be destroyed. Every time one country conquered another the defenders culture was destroyed. One such destruction was the library at Alexander and the list goes on and on even to our present day. Having just seen Alexander and seen portrayed what this library might have looked like I can't help feel the loss. It is mind boggling what we have lost through the centuries.

    JoanK
    August 10, 2005 - 08:57 am
    Here is a translation of "Voluspa" by W.H.Auden:

    AUDEN'S VOLUSPA

    JoanK
    August 10, 2005 - 09:04 am
    After a quick look at Voluspa, some interesting points: The sun is seen as feminine, the moon as masculine. This is the opposite of most myths.

    After the first houses are built, the gods are next seen "playing chess" !?! This was probably a bit of poetic license by Auden: I know the Norse had a game similar to chess because I gave a copy to my niece one year for Christmas. She and her husband like to play it.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 10, 2005 - 09:27 am
    Although that statement is awkward and Durant could have put it differently, he so seldom does, could he have meant by "history" that it was what Historians write about? I am trying to understand what he meant by that. History is only what we learn from what is written and if historians chose to ignore certain things, they are the ones to blame aren't they? Because, in the end, everything is destroyed through either war, the environment, or by a need to make room for something else, whether that is worthwhile in a historical context or not.

    Éloïse

    Justin
    August 10, 2005 - 12:14 pm
    Yes indeed, Eloise. You landed on the right button that time. History is what is reported. One can not select everything.

    MeriJo
    August 10, 2005 - 03:38 pm
    Thank you Robby for all the work you do for us to be involved in Durant's book. These links are helpful and the paintings give color and depth to Durant's tale.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 05:19 pm
    "The Treaty of Verdun (843) had in effect made Louis or Ludwig the German, grandson of Charlemagne, the first king of Germany.

    "The Treaty of Mersen (870) gave him additional territory and defined Germany as the land between the Rhine and the Elbe, plus part of Lorraine and the bishoprics of Mainz, Worms, and Speyer.

    "Louis was a statesman of the first order, but he had three sons. On his death (876) his realm was divided among them.

    "After a decade of chaos, during which the Northmen raided the Rhine cities, Arnulf, illegitimate offspring of Louis's son Carloman, was elected king of 'East Francia' (887) and drove back the invaders.

    "But his successor, Louis 'the Child' (899-911) proved too young and weak to hold back the Magyars who ravaged Bavaria (900), Carinthia (901), Saxony (906), Thuringia (908) and Alemannia (909).

    "The central government failed to protect these provinces. Each had to provide its own defense. The provincial dukes organized armies by giving lands in fief to retainers who paid in military service. The forces so raised gave the dukes virtual independence of the crown and established a feudal Germany. On the death of Louis the nobles and prelates, successfully claiming the right of choosing the king, gave the throne to Conrad I, Duke of Franconia (911-=18).

    "Conrad spent himself in strife with Duke Henry of Saxony but had the wit to recommend Henry as his successor.

    "Henry I, called 'the Fowler' because of his love of hunting, drove back the Slavic Wends to the Oder, fortified Germany against the Magyars, defeated them in 933, and prepared, by his patient labors, for the achievements of his son."

    A nation in gradual formation.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 05:23 pm
    Info about the TREATY OF VERDUN.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 05:42 pm
    Info about the TREATY OF MERSEN PLUS MAP.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 05:50 pm
    Read about HENRY THE FOWLER.

    Robby

    JoanK
    August 10, 2005 - 05:51 pm
    "Though often presented as the beginning of a devolution or dissolution of Charlemagne's unitary empire, it in fact reflected the continued adherence to the Frankish idea of a partible or divisible inheritance rather than primogeniture".

    It seems that Kings are in a bind. If the kingdom is left to one man, the brothers kill each other off to get it. If it's divided, it destroys the unity of the nation.

    I seem to remember reading something about the divisible inheritance of farmland in France. Farms tended to become more and more divided until they were too small to be viable.

    In England, where primogeniture (inheritance by the oldest son) was the rule, this gradually created a class of "gentry", younger sons and their wives and descendants, who were upper class in origin, but had no property. These gave England a rich source of professionals (officers in army and navy, lawyers, clergy, etc). Much of English literature deals with this group. Later,they will ally themselves with the upper class, and look down on the rising middle class based on manufacture.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 10, 2005 - 06:01 pm
    A VIKING GRAVE on a golf course where they play 24 hours a day.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    August 10, 2005 - 10:07 pm
    Robby maybe Alaska should take up the idea of 24hr golf!

    Justin
    August 10, 2005 - 11:53 pm
    Joan; We are together on this one. I think division of the Kingdom is a principal cause of civil war. Alexander did it. So did Charlemagne and the result was the same. Civil strife. Tribe against tribe. The alternative, primogeniture is better because there is less struggle and the Kingdom remains intact.Challengers are usually done away with but fewer peasants perish and sometimes, as in Britain, a professional class develops.

    Primogeniture is also a way to protect women. When land was divided among the sons the parcels shrunk and the inheriting sons founded new families. The women of the first family were left unprotected. When the eldest son inherits, his job is, generally, to retain the land for the benefit of the family.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 11, 2005 - 02:56 am
    Any discussion regarding Durant's relating of the organization of power in early "Germany?"

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 11, 2005 - 03:32 am
    The GERMANY OF TODAY is experiencing unemployment problems.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 12, 2005 - 03:31 am
    "Otto I the Great (936-73) was the Charlemagne of Germany.

    "He was twenty-four at his accession but was already a king in bearing and ability. Sensing the value of ceremony and symbolism, he persuaded the dukes of Lorraine, Franconia, Swabia, and Bavaria to act as his attendants in his solemn coronation at Aachen by Archbishop Hildeberr.

    "Later the dukes rebelled against his growing power and induced his younger brother Henry to join in a plot to depose him. Otto discovered and suppressed the conspiracy and forgave Henry who conspired again and was again forgiven.

    "The subtle King gve new duchies to his friends and relatives and gradually subordinated the dukes. Later monarchs would not inherit his resolution and skill and much of medieval Germany was consumed in conflict between feudalism and royalty.

    "In this contest the German prelates sided with the King and became his administrative aides and counselors, sometimes his generals. The King appointed bishops and achbishops as he named other officials at the government. The German Church became a national institution only loosely attached to the papacy.

    "Using Christianity as a unifying force, Otto fused the German tribes into a powerful state."

    "At age twenty-four he was already a king in bearing and ability." Do you folks think there is such a thing as a person at such a young age having the innate ability to govern or rule? If so, where does this come from? Any one in our day and age fitting that category?

    Robby

    Malryn (Mal)
    August 12, 2005 - 09:34 am


    Otto the Great's kingdom

    Otto the Great's crown

    MeriJo
    August 12, 2005 - 09:35 am
    I think times have changed.

    In those days it was necessary to get "smart" in a hurry, and parents didn't pamper the youngsters. There was too much danger, and it was usually life or death.

    I think there are still very smart young people around and with proper coaching and nurturing could strike out for themselves early.

    Conversely, without proper coaching and nurturing there are those who could do well if there is inate ability given the right circumstances.

    Traude S
    August 12, 2005 - 01:04 pm
    MAL, Otto the Great was also Holy Roman Emperor and had significant influence on papal policy.

    Scrawler
    August 12, 2005 - 01:13 pm
    Welcome back Mal, I missed you.

    Alexander the Great was 25 when his father was assassinated and he became King. Many of his ideas such as democracy came from the teachings of Aristole his tutor. The question today, I think, is whether or not teachers and parents inspire the young people the way Aristole inspired his students and are today's students encouraged to question their teachers as Alexander questioned Aristole?

    Justin
    August 12, 2005 - 01:42 pm
    Contemporary royalty is trained from an early age to fill a role in government.In Britain, of course the role is largely ceremonial, but in other countries the royal figure is stronger and more powerful. One of Diana's boys is twenty odd and clearly still a child in many ways. His father,Charles, like his great grandfathr Bertie, is in his late fifties and still neither a King nor very kingly in manner.

    In the US, the constitution has set thirty five as the magic age for presidents. But that is certainly no guarantee that one is of presidential timbre.

    JoanK
    August 12, 2005 - 02:27 pm
    "In those days it was necessary to get "smart" in a hurry, and parents didn't pamper the youngsters. There was too much danger, and it was usually life or death".

    That's right. When the average life expectancy is about 25 or 30, you don't spend it waiting to grow up. We have the luxury of delaying the maturity of our children. This is not all bad -- it gives the possibility of more years spent accumulating knowledge (although with the lengthening of education, it has also become more "watered down".

    mabel1015j
    August 12, 2005 - 04:15 pm
    Our founding fathers were very young, except for Franklin. Jefferson was 33 at the First Continental Congress, Hamilton, Madison, Monroe were all in their 20's and others not so well known were in their 20's and 30's. I believe Washington was in his 40's at the beginning of the war. I have the list in my supplemental notes for my classes, I'll see if i can dig it out......jean

    mabel1015j
    August 12, 2005 - 05:05 pm
    Most famous founding fathers from youngest as of 1776: Hamilton was 19 or 21, his birth date is not certain, Aaron Burr and Henry "Lighthorse" Lee - 20, John Marshall - 21, James Madison and Gouvenor Morris - 24, John Jay and Benjamin Rush- 31 (he convinced Abigail Adams to have all of her family take the experimental small pox vacine, Jefferson - 33, Benedict Arnold - 35, Hancock and Paine - 39, Patrick Henry - 40, John Adams - 41, Washington - 44. The amazing elder stateman, Franklin was 70 had yet to convince France to save us. Most of the others were 30's or 40's. George III was 38.

    3kings
    August 12, 2005 - 05:23 pm
    In today's democratic world, success in gaining positions of power requires ability, and the luck of being in the right office at the right time. That requires both time and work, and so it is not achieved by twenty somethings.

    Once achieved, political leadership is held by those who are most adept at generating the admiration of the populace. This requires something called charisma. And if you have this charisma, and the backing of a powerful media, folk will forgive you even for the most horrendous fumbles. It is so often just smoke and mirrors, isn't it ?

    Hitler managed to get himself accredited with lifting Germany from the economic gutter, and making that nation the most fully employed and enjoying highest wage packets in Europe. The German people were so grateful that they would do his bidding with pleasure. Later, when the horrors of war became a nightly visitation, and the loses on the Eastern Front could not be hidden, those very same people sought to assassinate him. ++ Trevor

    Malryn (Mal)
    August 12, 2005 - 05:40 pm
    If all goes according to plans, I'll be entering the UNC Hospital Monday morning. I'll be there three days, and then will go into a nursing home for about three weeks. ( I don't know which one yet, or whether I will be in Chapel Hill or Durham.) Shortly after I'm sprung from the nursing home I'll move to Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania in the Pocono Mountains where my son, Christopher, lives. This Yankee, who has lived in the south a relatively long time, is unexpectedly moving back up Nawth.

    Hopefully, I'll be able to have my computer in the nursing home. If not, I'll post from Pennsylvania sometime in the Fall. My daughter Dorian will keep you posted in between times if that happens.

    CLAIRE, click THIS LINK to find information about how and where to buy my book.

    Mal

    marni0308
    August 12, 2005 - 10:11 pm
    There are other means to power today besides purely through politics and government. Ambitious Bill Gates, the richest man in the world and certainly one of the most influential, started Microsoft when he was 20 years old.

    Marni

    Bubble
    August 13, 2005 - 02:19 am
    Those who invented the first big IM system ICQ were 18 I believe and still in the army.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 13, 2005 - 06:10 am
    "On the urging of his bishops, Otto attacked the Wends and sought to convert them to Christianity by the sword.

    "He compelled the king of Denmark and the dukes of Poland and Bohemia to accept him as their feudal suzerain. Aspiring to the throne of the Holy Roman Empire, he welcomed the invitation of Adelaide, the pretty widow of King Lothaire of Italy, to rescue her from the indignities to which she had been subjected by the new King Berengar II.

    "Otto combined politics deftly with romance. He invaded Italy, married Adelaide, and allowed Berengar to retain his kingdom only as a fief of the German crown (951). The Roman aristocracy refused to acknowledge a German as emperor and therefore as master of Italy.

    "Now began a contest that would last for three centuries. The rebellion of his son Laudolf and his son-in-law Conrad called Otto back to Germany, lest in trying to become emperor he should cease to be king. When the Magyars again invaded Germany (954), Ludolf and Conrad welcomed them and supplied them with guides. Otto put down the rebellion, forgave Ludolf, reorganized his army, and so decisively defeated the Magyars at the Lechfeld, near Augsburg (955), that Germany won a long period of security and peace.

    "Otto now devoted himself to internal affairs -- restored order, suppressed crime and for a time created a united Germany, the most prosperous state of its time."

    What is this about Germany and Italy that they never see eye to eye?

    Any example in our day of the combining of politics and romance?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 13, 2005 - 06:13 am
    Who are the WENDS?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 13, 2005 - 06:17 am
    Info about ADELAIDE.

    Robby

    Bubble
    August 13, 2005 - 06:19 am
    Maybe those of Germanic origin are as different of those of Latin origin in a similar way that East and West are different.

    Justin
    August 13, 2005 - 12:44 pm
    Germanic quareling reminds me of the Greek City States.

    MeriJo
    August 13, 2005 - 05:09 pm
    The connections between Germans and Italians go quite a distance back in history. Some positive and some negative. I liked the link.

    In general, the Romans denounced the Germans for heavy drinking, relentless fighting, and atrocities such as human sacrifice. But Romans also commended the virtue of Germanic women as well as the overall absence of any avarice among the tribes.

    . . . it is undeniable that the medieval emperors who called themselves Roman were in fact Germans. During the 10th to 13th centuries, their state, the Holy Roman Empire, was the most powerful in Europe, dominating not only German lands but northern Italian city-states as well. In turn, the decline of the Holy Roman Empire marked a period in which political power was fragmented among many German princes.

    Some Thoughts About Germany's And Italy's Feelings About Each Other

    Traude S
    August 13, 2005 - 08:12 pm
    Dear Friends, you know that I'm only an occasional (and sometimes silently dissenting) presence and an infrequent poster.

    I'm checking in tonight because the perennial subject of class has come up in the discussion of "The Mysterious Flame of Qeen Loana" by Umberto Eco.

    From my own experience I know quite well how important class still is in Europe. In my time it was family background and education that were all important. Since then, the nobility of money has been added. ...

    Sunknow
    August 13, 2005 - 08:43 pm
    Adelaide must have been quite a woman. She "ruled" three Ottos, the 1st, II, and III, by their side, or ruled over them. Then she retired on her own terms.

    May I back up to the remarks about the power and intelligence of Bill Gates and men like him at a young age? Can you imagine him leading men into battle, dashing about with a sword in his hand? Battles would be fought on a different playing field in current times.

    Sun

    Justin
    August 13, 2005 - 09:40 pm
    Otto l is the first monarch, to my knowldge, to force the deposition of a Pope. The scenario is full of double dealing. John Xll calls for help. Otto comes to the rescue. He is then crowned Holy Roman Emperor by John Xll who changes his mind and complains that Ravenna was not returned to the Papacy. Otto comes bounding into Rome and induces an episcopal synod to depose John Xll and then replaces him with a layman, Leo Vlll. John skulks off and Rome, once again, becomes part of the Holy Roman empire only this time the Roman empire is headed by a German.

    One can compare this period with A. Hitler taking over Italy in 1943 because he saw how easily Sicily succumbed to Allied attack.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 14, 2005 - 04:54 am
    "Imperial opportunity returned when Pope John XII appealed for his aid against Berengar (959).

    "Otto invaded Italy with a strong force, entered Rome peaceably and was crowned Roman Emperor of the West by John XII in 962. The Pope, regretting this action, complained that Otto had not fulfilled a promise to restore the Ravenna exarchate to the papacy. Otto took the extreme step of marching into Rome, summoning a synod of Italian bishops and persuading it to depose John and make a layman Pope as Leo VIII (963).

    "The papal territory was now confined to the duchy of Rome and the Sabine region. The rest of central and northern Italy was absorbed into a Holy Roman Empire that became an appanage of the German crown.

    "From these events German kings would conclude that Italy was part of their inheritance and the popes would conclude that no man could become Roman emperor of the West except by papal coronation.

    "Otto, nearing death, forestalled disorder by having his son Otto II crowned coemperor by Pope John XIII (967). He secured as his son's wife Theophano, daughter of Romanus II the Byzantine Emperor (972). Charlemagne's dream of a marital union of the two empires was transiently made real.

    "Then, old in deeds but still only sixty years of age, Otto passed away (973) and all Germany mourned him as its greatest king. Otto II (973-83) spent himself in efforts to add southern Italy to his realm and died prematurely in the attempt.

    "Otto III (983-1002) was then a boy of three. His mother Theophano and his grandmother Adelaide ruled as regents for eight years.

    "Theophano, in her eighteen years of influence, brought something of Byzantine refinement to the German court and stimulated the Ottoman renaissance in letters and arts."

    Any comments on these developments?

    Robby

    JoanK
    August 14, 2005 - 11:09 am
    Class: class is very important in England too. The competing claims of family, education, and money in determining social position form a constant background in George Eliot's "Middlemarch" which we will be discussing starting in September. Come and join us:

    MIDDLEMARCH

    What interesting interactions are going on between religious and secular power, Germany and Italy!! I always wondered where the Holy Roman Empire was about: this is fascinating!

    MeriJo
    August 14, 2005 - 11:14 am
    Justin:

    The following may give you the reason that the German King could depose a Pope: (from my link)

    In 951 Otto began the disastrous policy of German entanglement in Italy. He was perhaps tempted by the prosperity of the area and its political vacuum in the wake of feudal disorder and Saracen (Muslim) invasions. During his second Italian campaign in 962, Otto was crowned emperor by Pope John XII, who was grateful for Otto’s help against encroaching Italian nobles from the north and Byzantine Greeks and Saracens from the south. By a treaty called the Ottonian Privilege, Otto guaranteed the pope’s claim to most of central Italy in exchange for the promise that all future papal candidates would swear allegiance and loyalty to the emperor. This treaty effectively united the German monarchy and the Roman Empire until 1806, when the Holy Roman Empire, as it came to be called, was dissolved.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 15, 2005 - 01:12 am
    "At the age of sixteen (996) Otto III began to rule in his own name.

    "Influenced by Gerberr and other churchmen, he proposed to make Rome his capital and unite all Christendom under a restored Roman Empire, ruled jointly by emperor and pope.

    "The nobles and populace of Rome and Lombardy interpreted the plan as a conspiracy to establish a German-Byzantine rule over Italy. They resisted Otto and established a 'Roman Republic.' Otto suppressed it and executed its leader Crescentius. In 999 he made Gerberr Pope.

    "But the twenty-two years of Otto's life, and the four years of Gerberr's papacy, proved too brief for the implementation of his policy. Half a saint but in some measure a man, Otto fell in love with Stephania, a widow of Crescentius. She consented to be his mistress and poisoner.

    "The young king, feeling death in his veins, became a weeping penitent and died at Viterbo at the age of twenty-two.

    "Henry II (1002-24), last of the Saxon line of German kings, labored to restore the power of the monarch in Italy and Germany where the reigns of two boys had strengthened the dukes and emboldened neighboring states.

    "Conrad II (1024-39), beginning the Franconian or Salian line of emperors, pacified Italy and added to Germany the kingdom of Burgundy or Arles. Needing funds, he sold bishoprics for sums so large that his conscience irked him. He swore never again to take money for an ecclesiastical appointment and almost succeeded in keeping his oath.

    "His son Henry III (1039-56) brought the new empire to its zenith. On the 'Day of Indulgence' at Constance in 1043, he offerd pardon to all those who had injured him and exhorted his subjects to renounce all vengeance and hatred.

    "For a decade his preaching and example -=- perhaps also his power -- reduced the feuds of the dukes and co-operated with the contemporary 'Truce of God' to bring a brief golden age to Central Europe. He patronized learning, founded schools, and completed the cathedrals of Speyer, Mainz and Worms.

    "But he was no saint pledged to eternal peace. He warred with Hungary until it recognized him as its feudal suzerain. He deposed three rival claimants to the papacy and apointed two successive popes. In all Europe no other power equaled his.

    "In the end he pushed his authority to an extreme that aroused opposition among both the prelates and the dukes but he died before the storm and bequeathed to Henry IV a hostile papacy and a troubled realm."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    mabel1015j
    August 15, 2005 - 07:48 am
    I guess is you're a ruler whose mother and two wives are SAINTS you have to be a great conqueror!! What a stardard to live up to!

    This section gives us the stereotypical look at women - saints or "mistress and poisoner." Maybe this period of history - or what is written as history - was influential in perpetuating the myth of women as madonnas or whores. Those were the women who got their names in the history books.......jean

    MeriJo
    August 15, 2005 - 08:57 am
    Actually, one is not determined to be a saint until years after one's death.

    Each seemed to be good women and used their position to establish institutions of learning, humanitarianism and religious life. I think they went about their lives in an orderly manner according to the times, each life becoming instrumental in furthering civilization.

    mabel1015j
    August 15, 2005 - 02:24 pm
    become a saint until the church has time to decide if you are, but if you are eventually designated one by the church........ as you say, they must have been living very "good," accomplished, strong lives, which is why i said Otto had to do something to live up to the standard, like conquer most of Europe.......jean

    MeriJo
    August 15, 2005 - 03:21 pm
    mabel 1015

    Somehow, I can't imagine an incipient Emperor of the 10th century needing to do something to keep up with his wives. I think the times would not have presented such a thought to his mind. I read where he was a very religious person, and I suspect that he was pleased his wives were, too.

    You bring up an interesting point.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 15, 2005 - 04:24 pm
    German Civilization

    566-1106

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 15, 2005 - 04:43 pm
    "Through these five centuries the labor of men and women tilling the soil and rearing children conquered Germany for civilization.

    "The forests were fearfully immense, harbored wild animals, impeded communication and unity. Nameless heroes of the woodland felled the trees -- perhaps too recklessly. In Saxony the struggle against the self-regenerating forest and the infectious marsh went on for a thousand years and only the thirteenth century gave man the victory.

    "Generation after generation the hardy hearty peasants pushed back the beasts and the wilderness, tamed the land with mattock and plow, planted fruit trees, herded flocks, tended vines, and consoled their loneliness with love and prayer, flowers and music and beer.

    "Miners dug salt, iron, copper, lead, and silver from the earth. Manorial, monastic, and domestic handicraft wedded Roman to German skills.

    "Trade flowed ever more busily over the rivers and into the North and Baltic Seas. At last the great campaign was won.

    "Barbarism still lurked in the laws and the blood. But the gap had been spanned between the tribal chaos of the fifth century and the Ottonian renaissance of the tenth. From 955 to 1075 Germany was the most prosperous country in Europe, rivaled only by that northern Italy which had received law and order from German kings.

    "Old Roman towns lke Trier, Mainz and Cologne carried on, new cities grew around the episcopal seats at Speyer, Magdeburg and Worms.

    "About 1050 we begin to hear of Nuremberg.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    August 15, 2005 - 09:31 pm
    . . . but in some measure a man, Otto fell in love with Stephania, a widow of Crescentius. She consented to be his mistress and poisoner.

    This is unclear to me. Did Otto III want to die or was Stephania absolutely out of her mind?

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 17, 2005 - 04:51 am
    "The Church was the educator, as well as the administrator, of Germany in this age.

    "Monastic schools -- really colleges -- were opened at Fulda, Tegernsee, Reichenau, Gandersheim, Hildesheim, and Lorsch. Rabanus Maurus (776?-856), after studying under Aleuin at Tours, became abbot of the great monastery at Fulda in Prussia and made its school famous throughout Europe as the mother of scholars and of twenty-two affiliated institutions. He extended the curriculum to include many sciences and reproved the superstitions that ascribed natural events to occult powers.

    "The library at Fulda grew to be one of the largest in Europe. To it we owe Suetonius, Tacitus, and Ammianus Marcellinus.

    "An uncertain tradition attributes to Rabanus the majestic hymn, Veni Creator Spiritus which is sung at the consecreation of popes, bishops, or kings.

    "St. Bruno, who was both the Duke of Lorraine and the Archbishop of Cologne, and became imperial chancellor under Otto, the Great, opened a school in the royal palace to train an administrative class. He brought scholars and books from Byzantium and Italy and himself taught Greek and philosophy.

    "The German language had as yet no literature.

    "Nearly all writing was done by clerics and in Latin. The greatest German poet of the age was Salafrid Strabo (809-49), a Swabian monk at Reicherian. For a time h was tutor to Charles the Bald in the palace of Louis the Pious at Aachen. He found an enlightened patron in Louis' wife, the beauitiful and ambitious Judith.

    "His greatest rival in the literature of Germany in these centuries was a nun.

    "Hroswitha was only one of many German women who in this age were distinguished for culture and refinement. Born about 935, she entered the Benedictine convent at Gandersheim. The standard of instruction must have been higher than we should have expected for Hroswitha became familiar with the poets of pagan Rome and learned to write Latin fluently. She composed some lives of saints in Latin hexameters and a minor epic about Otto the Great.

    "But the works that make her memorable are six Latin prose comedies in the manner of Terence. Her purpose, she tells us, was 'to make the small talent vouchsafed her by Heaven give forth, under the hammer of devotion, a faint sound to the praise of God.' She mourns the pagan indecency of Latin comedy and proposed to offer a Christian substitute. But even her plays turn on a profane love that hardly conceals a warm undercurrent of physical desire.

    "Church architecture now graduated from wood to stone imported from Lombardy Romanesque ideas of transept, choir, apse, and towers and began the cathedrals of Hildesheim, Lorsch, Worms, Mainz, Trier, Speyer, and cologne.

    "Foreign critics complained of flat timbered ceilings and excessive external decoration in this 'Rhenish Romanesque' but these churches well expressed the solid strength of the German character and the spirit of an age laboriously struggling up to civilization."

    Any comments as we prepare to leave Germany and begin the next major section in Durant's book -- "Christianity in Conflict?"

    Robby

    Traude S
    August 17, 2005 - 08:36 am
    ROBBY, re #739 et ff., is there some further elaboration I missed about Gerberr who became pope, it seems?

    Amng the popes of that era I cannot find him, unless his name was subsequently changed.

    Re MeriJo's @ 739, though I have mised a lot by not being here every single day, I too wonder about Stefania, widow of Crescentius. If her motive in killing Otto III was revenge, what was the original cause ? Please enlighten me.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 17, 2005 - 03:17 pm
    "The nobles and populace of Rome and Lombardy interpreted the plan as a conspiracy to establish a German-Byzantine rule over Italy. They resisted Otto and established a 'Roman Republic.' Otto suppressed it and executed its leader Crescentius.

    Otto fell in love with Stephania, a widow of Crescentius. She consented to be his mistress and poisoner.

    "The young king, feeling death in his veins, became a weeping penitent and died at Viterbo at the age of twenty-two."


    It seems to me that Stephania had every reason in the world to poison Otto. Motto:-Don't take on as a mistress the widow of the man you murdered.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 17, 2005 - 03:26 pm
    Christianity in Conflict

    529 - 1085

    Justin
    August 17, 2005 - 04:08 pm
    The work of the Nun, Hroswitha, is one of the reasons I chose to reinvigorate my Latin skills with Ginny. Her plays are delightful and her prose comedies are in the style of Terence. Many express the benefits of attachment to the tender mercies of an opposite gender. She lived in a nunnery, a convent, among women and yet retained, in her mind, the intricacies of romance. The Latin catalogue is rich and when one tires of the English novel, Latin literature is there to rejuvenate one's interest in reading.

    We owe the preservation of Tacitus to Fulda, I think, and Suetonius to Richenau. The monastery at Richenau, in Switzerland , has also provided us with painting and illumination that is characteristic of the Ottonian period. The Monastery at Hildesheim was also quite active in this period making codexes for princes to carry about with them. The Gospel Book of Otto lll, made at Munich, contains an illumination of Otto lll flanked by the clergy, (bishop and monk) and nobility. The feet of the flankers are entwined to reflect their vying for power. We saw this charcteristic in San Vitale in Ravenna in the mossaic of Justinian, Theodora and the Bishops.

    Figurative painting is moving away from the realism of Carolingian art toward forms that are not according to nature. Forms become more "spiritual" in this period. The modern term for this form is "unreal".

    The Gospel Book of Otto can be found in Munich at the Bayerische Bibliothek.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 17, 2005 - 04:47 pm
    This article tells about GERMANY AND THE CURRENT PAPACY.

    Robby

    MeriJo
    August 17, 2005 - 08:18 pm
    Thank you, Robby:

    I missed that. I guess Crescentius had several widows.

    Justin
    August 17, 2005 - 09:49 pm
    My morning newspaper disclosed a request for immunity, from a Papal lawyer to Geo. Bush on behalf of Pope Benedict who as Jan Radzinski, Cardinal, participated in the cover-up of an abuse case in the Houston diocese. In my judgement the man should take his lumps as any one else would be forced to. If Bush gives in to save the Church some embarassment, I think, George should be seen as a participant in the cover-up. Isn't this sickening? No wonder Cardinal Law was treated to a promotion.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 03:00 am
    It's so easy when discussing religious items to slide onto American political ones.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 03:28 am
    "The year 529, which saw the closing of the Athenian schools of philosophy, saw also the opening of Monte Cassino, the most famous monastery in Latin Christendom.

    "Its founder, Benedict of Nursia, was born at Spolero, apparently of the dying Roman aristocracy. Sent to Rome for an education, he was scandalized by the sexual license there or, some say, he loved and lost. At the age of fifteen he fled to a remote spot five miles from Subiaco in the Sabine hills, made his cell in a cave at the foot of a precipice, and lived there for some years as a solitary monk.

    "The Dialogues of Pope Gregory I tell how Benedict fought valiantly to forget the woman

    'the memory of whom the wicked spirit put into his mind and by that memory so mightily inflamed with concupiscence the soul of God's servant that, almost overcome with plesure, he was of a mind to forsake the wilderness. But suddenly, assisted by God's grace, he came to himself. Seeing many thick briers and nestle bushes growing hard by, off he cast his apparel, and threw himself into the midst of them, and there wallowed so long that when he rose up all his flesh was pitifully torn. So by the wounds of his body he cured the wounds of hs soul.'

    "After he had lived there for some years and his steadfastness had won him fame, he was importuned by the monks of a nerby monastery to be their abbot. He warned them that his rule would be severe. They persisted and he went with them. After a few months of his stern regimen they put poison in his wine.

    "He resumed his solitary life but young devotees came to live near him and solicit his guidance. Fathers brought their sons, even from Rome, to be taught by him.

    "By 520 twelve little monasteries, each with twelve monks, had risen around his cave. When of even these monks many found his rule too strict, he removed with the most ardent of his followers to Monte Cassino, a hill 1715 feet above sea level, overlooking the ancient town of Casinum, forty miles northwest of Capua.

    "There he demolished a pagan temple, founded (c.629) a monastery and formulated tht Benedictine Rule which was to guide most monasteries in the West."

    I would guess that something of a romantic nature happened to this country boy in the big city at the age of fifteen. It's an impressionable age.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 04:02 am
    A news item about CHRISTIANITY VS NON-CHRISTIANITY.

    Robby

    marni0308
    August 18, 2005 - 08:43 am
    Re: "So by the wounds of his body he cured the wounds of hs soul."

    This kind of behavior makes me nervous. It makes me wonder about holy people who are masochistic and feel they must torture their own bodies to save themselves. I can't help but think they're absolutely nuts. Why would this behavior be attractive to so many?

    MeriJo
    August 18, 2005 - 09:08 am
    marni:

    I think they are ascetics. These people have appeared off and on throughout history. Essentially, it really is wrong, because one of the first rules a human being knows instinctively is to take care of one's health and well-being. It is a primitive way of doing penance for one's sins, but therein remains a question for that individual and his/her understanding of his faith.

    mabel1015j
    August 18, 2005 - 11:51 am
    What is the "philosophy/training" or priority of the Benedictines and has this pope been trained as a Benedictine?.........jean

    isaac
    August 18, 2005 - 05:16 pm
    (quote)"The year 529, which saw the closing of the Athenian schools of philosophy, saw also the opening of Monte Cassino, the most famous monastery in Latin Christendom.

    And the gloom of the Middle Ages descended upon Europe for nearly a thousand years !

    It has been lifted (more or less) in Europe, but not in the United States! ( I happen to be a Liberal.)

    Justin
    August 18, 2005 - 05:52 pm
    Isaac: "Liberal" is a label that distorts reality. It has meaning only in context. Even a political liberal is meaningless for one may have liberal social views politically and libral fiscal views politically. You may in this case be referring religious liberalism which may be defined as opposed to religious conservatism which is sometimes called traditionalism. Labels are confusing. At any rate, it's nice to have you in this discussion. I hope you will post again. Even if you are a liberal.

    JoanK
    August 18, 2005 - 05:55 pm
    Welcome, ISAAC. You will find many people who agree with you here (and many who don't. That's what keeps it interesting).

    isaac
    August 18, 2005 - 06:06 pm
    The Context is simply this: I believe, that we must 'keep up' with developments in the Arts; just as we do in the Sciences. True, the Arts are not so "certain" as sciences, but still, there is progress of sorts over periods of 2 or 3 decades (say.)

    For example: Darwin wrote his book, c. 1855. The Church fought him bitterly for a while. But the general public, were 'converted' to darwinism by Huxley's works - and when Darwin passed away, he was buried in Westminster Abbey, beside Isaac Newton ! (with Queen Victoria's express permission.)

    The British are civilized: we here are not! Vide the GOP's New Christianity that they are foisting upon us hicks!

    I had a friend, who many years ago, pointed out out certain awkward ( Ha Ha!) passages in Will Durant's Volumes - even in his Age Of Faith - which are so inconspicuous that most people don't notice them. I'll bet that if these were known, Durant's books would be non-grata in our Bible belt!

    Durant, and his publishers knew their business!

    So: by 'Liberal' I mean that I have a liberal education (more or less.)

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 06:06 pm
    As you can see, Isaac, you are most welcome here. We tend not to label ourselves but merely to share our points of view based on the text that Durant gives us. We are looking forward to your further participation.

    You mention "our" Bible belt and use the term "we here" but please keep in mind that not everyone who posts here lives in the United States. As an example we have Carolyn (Kiwi) who lives in New Zealand, Eloise who lives in Montreal,Canada, Daniel who lives in Switzerland, Jan who lives in Finland and Bubble who lives in Israel.

    Robby

    isaac
    August 18, 2005 - 06:09 pm
    So, with your permission, I'll start quoting page numbers from Durant that I find, "very curious!" - I hope you and our friends here won't take offence. All I can say is; Blame Durant: don't blame me!

    Justin
    August 18, 2005 - 06:15 pm
    Masochism is very often a prelude to sainthood. St Benedict and so many others sought to cleanse themselves of their experiences with women by flagellating themselves and in the process achieving sainthood through deprivation.One should not reward these guys. That only encourages others to imitate their actions. It is hard to understand why some men should be so fearful of women. Women are generally soft and gentle and easy to like. Perhaps, Beneduct was afraid of the apple. Boys of fifteen are approaching a peak of potency and are generally eager to share their power not to punish themselves for having power. .

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 06:17 pm
    Isaac:-We don't mind if you quote page numbers. All we ask is that you stick with the sub-topic we are currently discussing. For example, we are now on Page 518 and are discussing St. Benedict in Christianity in Conflict. If you wish to comment on something "curious" on that specific page, that would certainly keep our thoughts together. To bounce around the volume citing pages would disturb the constant "voyage" we are taking as we move through the volume.

    May I refer you to the sentence in brown in the Heading which starts with "In this discussion group we are not examining . . . etc." This will give you an idea how we manage to stay together as we follow page by page.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 06:31 pm
    "The monks of Italy and France had erred in imitating the solitary asceticism of the East.

    "Both the climate and the active spirit of Western Europe made such a regimen discouragingly difficult and led to many relapses. Benedict did not criticize the anchorites nor condemn asceticism but he thought it wiser to make asceticism communal, not individual.

    "There whould be no show or rivalry in it. At every step it was to be under an abbot's control and stop short of injury to health or mind.

    "Hitherto, in the West, no vows had been demanded of those who entered the monastic life.

    "Benedict felt that the aspirant should serve a novitiate and learn by experience the austerities to be required of him. Only after such a trial might he take the vows. Then, if he still wished, he was to pledge himself in writing to 'the perpetuity of his stay, the reformation of his manners, and obedience.'

    "And this vow, signed and witnessed, was to be laid upon the altar by the novice himself in a solemn ritual. Thereafter the monk must not leave the monastery without the abbot's permission. The abbot was to be chosen by the monks and was to consult them on all matters of importance. The final decision was to rest with him and they were to obey hm in silence and humility. They were to speak only when necessary. They were not to jest or laugh loudly. They were to walk with their eyes on the ground. They were to own nothing 'neither a book, nor tablets, or a pen -- nothing at all. All things shall be held in common.'

    "Conditions of previous wealth or slavery were to be ignored and forgotten. The abbot

    'shall make no distinction of persons in the monastery. A freeborn man shall not be preferred to one coming from servitude unless there be some other and reasonable cause. For whether we be bond or free, we are all one in Christ. God is no respecter of persons.'

    "Alms and hospitality were to be given within the means of the monastery to all wh asked for it All guests who come shall be received as though they were Christ.'"

    Your comments, please, regarding the regimen of these monks?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 06:46 pm
    Here is a detailed article about the BENEDICTINE ORDER.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 18, 2005 - 06:50 pm
    Durant says:-"Both the climate and the active spirit of Western Europe made such a regimen discouragingly difficult and led to many relapses."

    Any thoughts on how the active spirit of Western Europe causes part of the differences in our day between Islam and Christianity as we know it in the West?

    Robby

    marni0308
    August 18, 2005 - 07:48 pm
    All this information about the monks and nuns reminds me of an interesting film I saw the other day - "The Magdalene Sisters." It is a sad story of some young women sent to "repent" of their "wayward" behavior at one of the Magdalene laundries in Ireland, run by the Sisters of Mercy, doing what amounted to slave labor, unable to leave, locked in, and physically and psychologically tortured. The last of the Magdalene institutions was closed in 1996.

    Here's an interesting article about the film and the institutions:

    http://www.decentfilms.com/commentary/magdalenesisters.html

    Marni

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 19, 2005 - 03:21 am
    Welcome Isak, I hope you will continue sharing your views here. I continue reading S of C every day since it started even if I don't post as often, but it's not because I have lost interest.

    In Quebec, I think more than elsewhere, the education was the responsibility of religious orders until fairly recently and all my teachers were nuns. Even if I am aware of extreme behaviors within religious orders, for 90% of the time they were generous and kind to the population and dispensed their knowledge to millions of school children, they nursed the sick and opened orphanages for children who would otherwise have lived in squallor.

    Priests and nuns are humans with all humans' faults and frailties just like other people. I personally know of several nuns and priests inside and outside their monasteries and I have witnessed both their sainthood and their unsaintly behaviors. I condemn certain of the laws, but have to admit that their generosity is legendary. Now all the education is secular in Quebec and are children better educated because of it I wonder.

    In monasteries mentioned by Durant, men often became monks to escape extreme poverty and seeked protection within the walls of the monastery which was sometimes like a fortress. There was peace of some kind, and war within their soul as well, the same as everybody outside.

    "All things shall be held in common." Communism started here I guess.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 19, 2005 - 05:01 am
    "Every monk must work -- in the fields or shops of the monastery, in the kitchen, about the house, copying manuscripts. . .

    "Nothing was to be eaten until noon and in Lent not until sundown. From mid-September to Easter, there was to be but one meal a day. In the summer months, two, for then the days were long. Wine was allowed but no flesh of any four-footed beast.

    "Work or sleep was to be frquently interrupted with communal prayer. Influenced by Eastern exemplars, Benedict divided the day into 'canonical hours' -- hours of prayer as established by canon or rule.

    "The monks were to rise at two a.m., repair to the chapel and recite or sing 'nocturns' -- scriptural readings, prayers, and psalms. At dawn they gathered for 'matins' or 'lauds'. At six for 'prime' -- the first hour. At nine for 'tierce' -- the third. At noon for 'sext' -- the sixth. At three for 'none' -- the ninth. At sunset for vespers -- the evening hour. At bedtime for 'compline' -- the completion. Bedtime was nightfall. The monks almost dispensed with artificial light.

    "They slept in their clothes and seldom bathed.

    "To these specific regulations Benedict added some general counsels of Christian perfection - - -

    '1 - In the first place, to love the Lord God with the whole heart, the whole soul, the whole strength.
    2 - Then one's neighbor as oneself.
    3 - Then not to kill nor commit adultery nor steal nor covet nor bear false witness.
    8 - To honor all men...
    11 - To chasten the body. . .
    13 - To love fasting
    14 - To relieve the poor
    15 - To clothe the naked
    16 - To visit the sick...
    30 - Not to do injuries and to bear them patiently...
    31 - To love one's enemies...
    53 - Not to be fond of much talking...
    61 - Not to desire to be called a saint...but to be one...
    71 - After a disagreement to be reconciled before the going down of the sun
    72 - And never despair of the mercy of God.'"

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    Ruie Lue
    August 19, 2005 - 05:37 am
    Over the centuries it is surprising how many lived up to so much of the ideal! The face of this part of Germany is still shaped by their works. I can hear the bells ringing out for the "hours" from the 2 small towns around me. They Both started as monastery "mills". Kuernach where I live is 1300 yrs. old &turning into a suburb of Wurzburg.

    Alliemae
    August 19, 2005 - 07:41 am
    Hello All...just stopping by to say I continue to read all the postings both from the book and the responses. I am learning a lot and enjoying all the links. I am glad this discussion is Ongoing as I love history.

    Alliemae

    Bubble
    August 19, 2005 - 09:49 am
    Hello Bubble here just checking in but unable to keep up with the discussion at this time. Just sending you a hello from Brussels where old civilisation is very present.

    Bubble

    Justin
    August 19, 2005 - 01:49 pm
    The Benedictin rule contains to two elements that are broken more often and followed more often than the others. To honor all men and to love one's neighbor as thyself are the popular rules. People who follow the Benedictin rule operate orhanages, care for the sick, and the poor and and educate the young. Their service to society is commendable. At the same time, the same people, deny adherents of other religions the right to an independent way of life. They run Magdelene Houses and crucify the young on crosses of their own design. They seek civil laws that deny the rights of their neighbors. They are a bitter mixture of good and evil.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 19, 2005 - 05:47 pm
    Welcome, Ruie Lue!! Please tell us where you live or did live. And of course we look forward to further postings from you.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 19, 2005 - 06:26 pm
    "In an age of war and chaos, of doubt and wandering, the Benedictine monastery was a healing refuge.

    "It took dispossessed or ruined peasants, students longing for some quiet retreat, men weary of the strife and tumult of the world and said to them:-'Give up your pride and freedom and find here security and peace.'

    "No wonder a hundred similar Benedictine monasteries rose throughout Europe, each independent of the rest, all subject only to the pope, serving as communistic isles in a raging individualistic sea. The Benedictine Rule and order proved to be among the most enduring creations of medieval man.

    "Monte Cassino itself is a symbol of that permanence.

    "Lombard barbarians sacked it in 589.

    "The Lombards retired.

    "The monks returned.

    "The Saracens destroyed it in 884.

    "The monks rebuilt it.

    "Earthquake ruined it in 1349.

    "The monks restored it.

    "French soldiery pillaged it in 1799. The shells and bombs of the Second World War leveled it to the ground in 1944.

    "Today (1948) the monks of St. Benedict, with their own hands, are building it once more. succisa virescit;-cut down, it blooms again."

    I believe I mentioned previously that my grandfather was born near there. I learned about that when I returned from WWII. I would have asked him more about that environ if -- if -- if I had known of its history.

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 19, 2005 - 07:09 pm
    Robby, this link gives you grand tour of the ABBY OF MONTE CASSINO and also several sub links that are very interesting. We can see the size of it before its destruction. It was rebuilt four times throughout the centuries.

    marni0308
    August 19, 2005 - 08:09 pm
    Some of us have been discussing Umberto Eco's The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana and a number of us read Eco's The Name of the Rose which is a mystery that takes place in a Benedictine monastery in northern Italy in 1327.

    Marni

    MeriJo
    August 19, 2005 - 08:50 pm
    Justin:

    I have not heard of Benedictines running Magdalene Houses whatever they are. I did know of a very badly-run home for young women in Ireland run by unusually narrow-minded nuns. I believe marni mentioned that a movie was made of the situation. There was also a news segment on TV a few years ago about the place. I believe it has since been closed.

    But to get back to the Benedictines. They are the ones who raised Saint Bernard dogs in Switzerland and for centuries were instrumental in saving many travelers from a bad end in the Alps.

    Also, I had a good Elderhostel experience at a Benedictine monastery, St. Joseph's, in Louisiana not far from New Orleans. It was Mardi Gras and the monks took us elderhostelers to New Orleans to participate in the festivities. They had previously explained the history and organization of the celebration, the meanings of the various things associated with Mardi Gras. We were accommodated at the monastery for meals and lodging. The Benedictines were first celebrated for their hospitality.

    The actress, Dolores Hart, known for her movies with Elvis Presley, became a Benedictine nun many years ago. She finally permitted an interview. She is at a convent in Massachusetts.

    Justin
    August 19, 2005 - 11:36 pm
    Merijo: You are quite right. I was not thinking of Benedictines in connection with the Magdelene houses but I did seem to link them in my post.Thank you for the correction.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 04:49 am
    Here is an interesting article in today's NY Times about EVOLUTION AND THEOLOGY.

    Please refrain from mentioning or alluding to any political figures.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 06:45 am
    The new GREEN quotes above show you the direction in which Durant is going. We have just left St. Benedict.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 06:48 am
    Gregory the Great

    540? - 604

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 07:05 am
    "While Benedict and his monks peacefully worked and prayed at Monte Cassino, the Gothic War (536-53) passed up and down Italy like a withering flame, leaving disorder and poverty in its wake.

    "Urban economy was in chaos. Political institutions lay in ruins. In Rome no secular authority survived except that of imperial legates weakly supported by uunpaid and distant troops.

    "In this collapse of worldly powers the survival of ecclesiastical organization appeared even to the emperors as the salvation of the state. In 554 Justinian promulgated a decree requiring that 'fit and proper persons, able to administer the local government, be chosen as governors of the provinces by the bishops and chief persons of each province.'

    "But Justinian's corpse was hardly cold when the Lombard invasion (568) subjected northern Italy again to barbarism and Arianism and threatened the whole structure and leadership of the Church in Italy.

    "The crisis calld forth a man and history once more testified to the influence of genius.

    "Gregory was born at Rome three years before Benedict's death.

    "He came of an ancient senatorial family and his youth was spent in a handsome palace on the Caelian Hill. On the death of his father he fell heir to a large fortune. He rose rapidly in the ordo honorum or sequence of political plums.

    "At thirty-three he was prefect -- as we should say, mayor -- of Rome. But he had no taste for politics. Having finished his year of office, and apparently convinced by the condition of Italy that the ever-heralded end of the world was at hand, he used the greater part of his fortune to found seven monasteries, distributed the rest in alms to the poor, laid aside all vestiges of his rank, turned his palace into the monastery of St. Andrew, and became its first monk.

    "He subjected himself to extreme asceticism, lived for the most part on raw vegetables and fruits and fasted so often that when Holy Saturday came, on which fasting was pre-eminently enjoined, it seemed that another day of abstinence would kill him.

    "Yet the three years that he spent in the monastery were always recalled by him as the happiest of his life."

    "History testifies to the influence of genius." What is genius? And I am wondering -- do those with genius always wield influence?

    The emphasis by underlining above is Durant's.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 07:22 am
    What was the cause of the GOTHIC WAR?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 07:35 am
    The power shift caused by the LOMBARD INVASION. The "balance" illustration in the upper left hand corner tells the situation at that time.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 07:53 am
    History of the LOMBARDS.

    Robby

    mabel1015j
    August 20, 2005 - 08:55 am
    the two facets of this book: Christianity and civilization. Robby, your link to the Benedictine Brothers was particularly succinct in doing that and the comments from the rest of you reenforce it.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 20, 2005 - 09:11 am
    "The first and last thing demanded of genius is the love of truth." Goethe

    marni0308
    August 20, 2005 - 11:44 am
    Re: "...do those with genius always wield influence?"

    I think many with genius were murdered because of it.

    Lombards - Was it the Lombards who caused those who eventually built the city of Venice to flee from northern Italy? I saw a History Channel program about the creation of Venice in the marshes and water off the mainland, the only place where they would not be killed by the invaders. I think the invaders were Lombards. Anyone else see this?

    Marni

    MeriJo
    August 20, 2005 - 02:32 pm
    Correction:

    Afer reading almost all the way through the link on the Benedictine Order and not coming to any information about the St. Bernard dogs, I googled that title and learned that it was an Augustine monk and not a Benedictine monk that founded the hospice on Great St. Bernard Pass in Switzerland. I am posting the link below especially because the picture near the beginning of the article of two fluffy Saint Bernard dogs is very appealing and worth downloading.

    http://www.saintbernardclub.org/about_saints.htm

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 20, 2005 - 03:58 pm
    Those puppies are pretty hard to resist, aren't they, MeriJo? I never realized I was so attracted to Saints.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 20, 2005 - 05:06 pm
    Gregory's early life does not attest to his genius. He shuns public civic responsibility after serving as Mayor of Rome. He expends a large fortune in a short few years by building monasteries and by converting his own palace into a monastery with him as the first monk. If this is the work of genius, give me normalcy.

    The article on theology and evolution is an interesting one. It tells us there are scientists who suggest that God has no role in the world because evolution explains it all. Such reasoning is the mirror image of those who tell us evolution is deniable because God made the world. Fortunately, there are some in the world, who recognize that theology is theology and biology is biology and in twain they shall forever be.

    MeriJo
    August 20, 2005 - 07:55 pm
    Robby:

    A neighbor of ours had a Saint Bernard, and he was the most gentle dog I have ever seen. They just look serious and sober and kind. Glad you liked the photo.

    MeriJo
    August 20, 2005 - 08:02 pm
    Justin:

    Gregory was heeding a suggestion of our Lord's "to sell all one's goods and follow Him." This is a preparatory step toward living a life of asceticism.

    In the history of dogmatic development he is important as summing up the teaching of the earlier Fathers and consolidating it into a harmonious whole, rather than as introducing new developments, new methods, new solutions of difficult questions. It was precisely because of this that his writings became to a great extent the compendium theologiae or textbook of the Middle Ages, a position for which his work in popularizing his great predecessors fitted him well. Achievements so varied have won for Gregory the title of "the Great", but perhaps, among our English-speaking races, he is honoured most of all as the pope who loved the bright-faced Angles, and taught them first to sing the Angels' song.

    There is quite a long biography in the Catholic Encyclopedia on Google, but I thought the above would be a point to emphasize with regard to Gregory being called "Great".

    He did have a lot of influence in medieval secular history as well. I think the world generally follows his calendar and he was quite an author, but the biography emphasizes that he was a lawyer who had become a Pope and not a scholar nor a philosopher in the main.

    Justin
    August 21, 2005 - 12:01 am
    Merijo: The presbyters (apostles and disciples) must have had xerox copiers for the same message appears in Mark 10;21, Matt 19;21, Luke 12;33, and 18:22. No wonder they are called the synoptic gospels. It would be hard for Gregory to miss the instruction. The same is true for St. Francis. Is there not something irresponsible about that instruction especially when it is directed to married men? It is one thing for Gregory and Francis to toss it all but for some of the disciples and their wives and families it must have been a severe hardship.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 04:27 am
    "Gregory was drawn to serve Pope Benedict I as 'seventh deacon' and in 579 he was sent by Pope Pelagius II as ambassador to the imperial court at Constantinople.

    "Amid the wiles of diplomacy and the pomp of palaces he continued to live like a monk in habit, diet and prayer.

    "Nevertheless he gained some helpful experience of the world and the chicanery. In 586 he was recalled to Rome and became Abbot of St. Andrew's.

    "In 590 a terrible bubonic plague decimated the population of Rome. Pelagius himself was a victim. At once the clergy and people of the city chose Gregory to succeed him.

    "Gregory was loath to leave the monastery and wrote to the Greek emperor asking him to refuse confirmation of the election. The city prefect intercepted the letter. As Gregory was preparing flight he was seized and brought by force to St. Peter's and there was consecrated Pope.

    "So we are told by another Gregory.

    "He was now fifty and already bald with large head, dark complexion, aquiline nose, sparse and tawny beard, a man of strong feeling and gentle speech, of imperial purposes and simple sentiment.

    "Austerities and resonsibilities had ruined his health. He suffered from indigestion, slow fever, and gout. In the papal palace he lived as he had in the monastery -- dressed in a monk's course robe, eating the cheapest foods, sharing a common life with the monks and priests who aided him.

    "Usually absorbed in problems of religion and the state, he could unbend into words and deeds of paternal affection. A wandering minstrel appeared at the gate of the palace with organ and monkey. Gregory bade the man enter and gave him food and drink.

    "Instead of spending the revenues of the Church in bulding new edifices, he used them in charity, in gifts to religious institutions throughout Christendom and in redeeming captives of war. To every poor family in Rome he distributed monthly a portion of corn, wine, cheese, vegetables, oil, fish, meat, clothing, and money. and every day his agents brought cooked provisions to the sick and infirm.

    His letters, stern to negligent eccelesiastics or to political potentates, are jewels of sympathy to persons in distress. To a peasant exploited on Church lands, to a slave girl wishing to take the veil, to a noble lady worried about her sins.

    "In his conception the priest was literally a pastor, a shepherd caring for hs flock and the good Pope had every right to compose his Liber pastoralis curae (590), a manual of advice to bishops which became a Christian classic. Though always ailing and prematurely old, he spent hiself in ecclesiastical administration, papal politics, agricultural management, military strategy, theological treatises, mystic ecstasies, and a solicitous concern with a thousand details of human life.

    "He chastened the pride of his office with the humility of his creed. He called himself, in the first of his extant epistles, servus servortum Dei, 'server of the servant of God' and the greatest popes have accepted the noble phrase."

    "The clergy and people of the city chose Gregory to succeed him. Gregory was loath to leave the monastery and wrote to the Greek emperor asking him to refuse confirmation of the election." If nominated I will not accept? If elected I will not serve? Imagine if a presidential candidate were seized, brought to Washington, and shoved into the White House.

    What are your thoughts about Gregory?

    As an aside, I didn't know that the organ grinder with the monkey existed well over a thousand years ago.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 04:40 am
    This morning's NY Times article tells about the CURRENT POPE ON WORLD YOUTH DAY.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 10:30 am
    Message from Mal

    Here I am, just having eaten part of somebody's idea of a Mediterranean salad.

    There's nothing new to report. Weekends are slow here. Tomorrow we'll begin another round of physiotherapy and I decided to go to the flower arranging class on Tuesday. Some of the ladies get together and arrange small bouquets which are displayed in the lobby and various other places here.

    It's too hot and humid to go out on the porch though I did sneak out there for a brief period this morning. When I got there I was itchy for a cigarette, so I came inside. My room is easier because I never have smoked in a bedroom. Oh, if you haven't guessed already, I stopped smoking a few weeks ago.

    I hope you're all feeling great and having a wonderful day.

    That's about it for today folks.

    Justin
    August 21, 2005 - 02:42 pm
    Mal; I was pleased to hear that you are off the weed. Stay off it. Occupy yourself and your mind with other things and smoking desire will fade slowly away. I stopped about thirty years ago after thirty years of pipe, cigar, and cigarettes. I found that the whole process of smoking was part of the habit not just puffing and sucking in the smoke. What do I mean by the "whole process?" The process includes reaching for a pack, removing the cigarette from the pack, putting the pack away, placing the cigarette in the mouth, reaching for a match or lighter, etc. If you have the urge you may satisfy it with dry runs. When I stopped I had great need to experience a sucking sensation so I sucked a pencil end that I held like a cigarette. It worked. The very action of sucking in what came to me from a pencil end was sufficient to satisfy me. It also enabled me to stop the whole process for I realized how ridiculous I was to be sucking on a pencil end.

    Justin
    August 21, 2005 - 02:59 pm
    Gregory was consistent wasn't he?.He gave up the luxury of a palace to become a monk and while living in palatial surroundings continued to live as a monk. It is interesting that this soft spoken, gentle man, who abused his body, should be recognized as having the qualities required to lead the church as Pope. Consider just the pomp and ceremony bringing Cardinal Ratzinger to the Roman cathedra. That was what Gregory ran away from, I suspect.. I don't think Gregory was a priest. He was a lawyer. There have been other non priests elevated to high office in the church but such elevations are rare. Thomas Beckett is one such.

    MeriJo
    August 21, 2005 - 04:22 pm
    Justin:

    You must remember that Gregory and St. Francis lived in very different times and were affected by very different cultural perceptions than one is today. It is my opinion that the penchant many today have to couch perceptions of a past period in history in the cultural mores of today is a root cause of an inability to understand history.

    The gospel writers wrote of the same thing because they understood the teaching to be one and the same, and yet each of the gospels were written at different times several years after the death of Jesus. For example, Luke never met Jesus, but knew of his teachings. I'm sure you know what synoptic means, Justin, writing of the same occurrences by different people and concluding similarly the meanings of the occurrences.

    As for married people, they may have chosen other ways to live a holier life.

    The following link about Gregory is brief and to the point, and one may click on some of the words to learn more.

    http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg02.htm

    MeriJo
    August 21, 2005 - 04:33 pm
    The organ grinder did exist during the Middle Ages.

    The Origins of the Hurdy Gurdy

    Justin
    August 21, 2005 - 04:57 pm
    Merijo; The disciple who sold his goods and went off to follow Jesus left his wife and kiddies in a sorry fix but holier than she was with her husband in the house. That's a great blessing. I am sure she appreciated being alone to feed the family with holiness to help her.

    The pomp and ceremony of papal election has not changed very much over the centuries. It is implemented and reported to day with electronics but the ceremony has not changed. Gregory had the same process to endure as Cardinal Ratzinger.

    Most often, cardinals are elected to the post of Pope but Gregory was an ascetic,lawyer,monk- a man from the outside, without money or position. The election of such a one is phenomemnal.

    MeriJo
    August 21, 2005 - 05:35 pm
    Justin:

    I am going to tell you something and then I'll leave. I am in no mood to discuss religion with someone who is obviously so ignorant of it and especially one who insists on imagining what might have occurred. You insist on putting today's - American - ideas into a position of what it was like in those early days. You think that because ideals for a holy life were set forth that these ideals precluded common sense.

    I have studied most of the history we are reading here, and it is a pleasure to have this oppportunity to review it and to learn new things, but with all respect, I know what you are doing, and I don't like it. This is no place to carry on such a pointed discussion. I have tried my best to be civil and informative in an objective manner. It's no use.

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 21, 2005 - 06:55 pm
    MeriJo, I understand your point of view because I have been participating in S of C since the beginning and I have come to accept that each one of us, coming from different backgrounds, perceive history in a different manner. Please continue to grace us with your knowledge, it is very much appreciated.

    Éloïse

    JoanK
    August 21, 2005 - 07:13 pm
    Yes, MeriJo, you add so much to the discussion. There are all different points of view here, and we need to hear them all. Please don't feel you have to counter every opinion that you don't agree with. Just tell us your thoughts on the subject, and let other people go their way.

    3kings
    August 21, 2005 - 07:27 pm
    It is a pity that one here should leave, because others have different opinions than one's own. It is this free exchange of ideas that I find so interesting.

    Free speech is surely the very basis of civilised discourse. Without it, I doubt if humans can ever advance from their present imperfect state.

    MeriJo, Please come back to the fold, and speak your piece. We will not always agree, but I for one will miss your comments, just as I would miss Justin's. ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 07:39 pm
    Whatever our points of view in this discussion, the basis rule always is -- courtesy and consideration, issues not personalities. Let us please choose our words carefully.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 07:50 pm
    Let us move on with the words of Durant.

    "Gregory's administration of the Church was marked by economic wisdom and stern reform.

    "He struggled to suppress simony and concubinage in the clergy. He restored discipline in the Latin monasteries and regulated their relations with the secular clergy and the pope.

    "He improved the canon of the Mass and perhaps contributed to the development of 'Gregorian' chant. He checked exploitation on the papal estates, advanced money to tenant farmers and charged no interest.

    "But he collected due revenues promptly, slyly offered rent reductions to converted Jews and received, for the Church, legacies of land from barons frightened by his sermons on the approaching end of the world.

    "Meanwhile he met the ablest rulers of his day in political duels, won often, sometimes lost, but in the end left the power and prestige of the papacy and the 'Patrimony of Peter' (i.e. the Papal States in central Italy) immensely extended and enhanced.

    "He formally acknowledged, but in pracice largely ignored, the sovereignty of the Eastern emperor. When the duke of Spoleto, at war with the Imperial exarch of Ravenna, threatened Rome, Gregory signed a peace with the duke without consulting the exarch or the emperor.

    "When the Lombards besieged Rome, Gregory shared in organizing defense."

    Is it possible to properly compare the power of the pope in that era with the pope of today? And just how does one measure a pope's power?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 07:53 pm
    Here is a definition of SIMONY.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 08:01 pm
    Read here about the DUCHY OF SPOLETO.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 21, 2005 - 08:11 pm
    A MAP OF CENTRAL ITALY showing the location of Spoleto.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 21, 2005 - 11:22 pm
    Merijo; You are right. I use the language of today to comment upon events that occurred in the sixth century. Some things have not changed. Other things have changed very greatly. Personal needs and relationships have not changed but the context in which those requirements are achieved has changed very greatly. One must eat and sleep. One must be able to relate to others in meaningful ways and to feel committment to family and perhaps also to community. The old Testament is full of examples and we have after all been talking about Jews in a Jewish context. We are also talking about an Imperial Roman world. Did one not grasp for power in a disintegrating Roman world?. Did others not flee from a world so full of stress they chose not to bear it? Do we not feel these needs today? Are they not universal? .

    Understanding history in modern terms makes the events useful to modern man. Understanding history in the original milieu is very difficult because we have no experience of it. You can help with that aspect of history if you feel you understand it. Put us in context. That's a wonderful contribution to make.

    Do not be frustrated by my address. I sometimes try to provoke one into serious comment and away from milk and cookies. The issues here are serious and worthy of our attention. If you decide to stay and I sincerely hope you do, stay with the intent of expressing your point of view. You make a worthy contribution.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 22, 2005 - 03:55 am
    OK, folks, we're back on track. We are a special group here and we should never let ourselves forget it. In just a few days we will be celebrating a full year of discussing just Durant's fourth volume, "The Age of Faith," never mind the three we have already completed.

    There are other discussion groups on Senior Net where the participants enjoy throwing brickbats at each other. We, here, are a different breed. Rather than wasting valuable time by hurling insults at each other, we sink our teeth in the amazing overall topic of Mankind, keeping in mind the questions constantly staring at us in the Heading above -- What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

    Are we civilized enough to seriously address these questions? I think we are, at least in this discussion group, or we wouldn't have continued for so long.

    Your comments about Gregory are invited.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 22, 2005 - 03:59 am
    All you ever wanted to know about the GREGORIAN CHANT.

    Robby

    tooki
    August 22, 2005 - 01:00 pm
    It would be exciting to be in a 6th or 7th century state of mind, sort of like time travel. But I doubt if it would help one gain more understanding of those times. Here we are in the 21st century, possessing a 21st century frame of mind, and it doesn’t do some of us any good at all in understanding what’s happening.

    Gregory was called the Great because when Europe was a messy bud not due to flower for centuries he had the foresight to formulate policies to guide the Church for the coming centuries. The Germanic invasions, a series of ineffectual popes, the Celtic church going its own way and no Roman secular authority had left Europe a mess. Gregory’s genius was to turn away from the shores of the Mediterranean and look toward Western Europe as the source of budding power. Justinian’s 554 decree Oking anyone who could administer to administer (p. 519) can be regarded as a transfer of power. Gregory the Great fit the bill as the needed administrator.

    JoanK
    August 22, 2005 - 02:21 pm
    The Gregorian chant link is very interesting. I liked the section on why they are called Gregorian chants (a spin put on later) I didn't know Gregory I was the one that this story was told about:

    'There are stories of his sending out missionaries with instructions to bring back any new music they encountered, saying "Why should the Devil have all the good songs?"'

    kiwi lady
    August 22, 2005 - 04:02 pm
    We still have the Benedictine Nuns here. They began a school near here St Benedicts College. However most of the teachers are now lay people due to the shortage of Nuns. I think there is also Benedictine Priests here. They wear the robes still. The robes of the Monkhood a la Friar Tuck. We used to see them about town walking but not so much now probably because they are elderly and no replacements. The Benedictines have done a lot in the education field here.

    I am not a Catholic but have great respect for some of the orders particularly the Sisters of Mercy who established our first hospice and where my husband spent his last five days. Sister Catherine ( who dressed in civilian clothes) was our resident pastoral care person. Everyone took advantage of her counsel regardless of creed. She was amazing! They care for everyone regardless of creed and whether they can pay.

    Carolyn

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 22, 2005 - 06:22 pm
    Good to see you again, Tooki. Thank you for your comments.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 22, 2005 - 06:40 pm
    "Gregory mourned every minute given to earthly concerns and apoligized to his congregation for his inability to preach comforting sermons amid the worldly cares that troubled his mind.

    "In the few years of peace allowed him he turned happily to the task of spreading the Gospel through Europe. He brought the rebellious bishops of Lombardy to submission, restored orthodox Catholicism in Africa, received the conversion of Arian Spain and won England with forty monks.

    "While Abbot of St. Andrew's he had seen some English captives exposed for sale in a slave market at Rome. He was struck, says the patriotic Bede, by their white skin and comely countenance and hair of excellent beauty. And beholding them awhile he demanded, as they say, out of what region or land they had been brought. And it was answered that they came from Britain where such was the appearance of the inhabitants.

    "Again, he asked whether the people of that island were Christian men and answer was made that they were paynims. Then this good man...quoth he:-'alas it is a piteous case that the author of darkness possessseth such bright beautied people and that men of such gracious outward sheen do bear a mind void of inward grace.'

    "Again, therefore, he enquired what was the name of that people. Answer was given that they were called Angles. Whereon he said:-'Well are they so called , for they have an angel's face, and it is meet that such men were inheritors with the angels in heaven.'

    "The story -- too pretty to be credible -- goes on to say that Gregory asked and received of Pope Pelagius II permission to lead some missionaries to England, that Gregory started out, but was halted by a locust dropping upon the page of Scripture that he was reading. He cried:-'Locusta! That means loco sta' -- stay in your place.

    Impressed soon afterward into the papacy, he did not forget England. In 596 he sent thither a mission under Augustine, Prior of St. Andrew's. Arrived in Gaul, the monks were turned back by Frank stories of Saxon savagery. Those 'angels', they were informed 'were wild beasts who preferred killing to eating, thirsted for human blood and liked Christian blood best of all.

    "Augustine returned to Rome with these reports but Gregory reproved and encouraged him and sent him back to accomplish peaceably in two years what Rome had transiently achieved by ninety years of war."

    Could Gregory's astonishment at the white skin of those from Britain indicate that Gregory was, himself, of a very dark color?

    Robby

    tooki
    August 22, 2005 - 08:26 pm
    comment, Robbie. It makes me think you’ve been observing people’s reactions for many years.

    Norman F. Cantor, a well known contemporary medievalist, in his “Medieval History; the Life and Death of a Civilization,” has this to say:

    “The contribution of Benedictine monasticism to the leadership of the early medieval church may be gauged by the fact that several of the most outstanding popes from the middle of the sixth to the twelfth century were black monks. In the year 590 the first of these monastic popes, Gregory I the Great ascended to the throne of Peter.” Page 171

    Is there something about the Benedictines being black that we haven’t found out yet?

    tooki
    August 22, 2005 - 08:51 pm
    Robbies remark was astute. But I certainly win no prizes. Clearly, what Cantor is discussing is that the Benedictines were called the black monks. Sorry, folks, for the red herring.

    marni0308
    August 22, 2005 - 10:46 pm
    I collect many different kinds of music and found the information about Gregorian chants very interesting:

    "Gregorian chant was for centuries the music of the Roman Catholic Church. While Christian chanting developed from Hebrew chants, Gregorian chant, as we know it today, is the most notable contribution of the Catholic church to the musical tradition of the west....the chants we sing today were probably also sung a thousand years ago. During the 1960s chant fell out of favor, but there has since been a resurgence."

    In America there has been a resurgence of interest in another type of sacred music sung a cappella, "sacred harp" or "shape note" music, partly because of its inclusion in the movie "Cold Mountain." To find out about this type of church music, check out this site:

    Sacred Harp Music

    To listen to "sacred harp" music, click here:

    http://www.smokecds.com/track/136782

    Then click on the button to the left of "Listen to 'm Going Home - Sacred Harp Singers at Liberty Church." Or click on "Listen to the all tracks from this album" and find selection #9.

    Marni

    Justin
    August 22, 2005 - 11:13 pm
    Once, in Paris, I was lucky enough to get tickets to a choral event at Sainte Chapelle. Augustinian monks, acapella choraliers, were singing Gregorian chants on the second deck of Sainte Chapelle.That little church is a jewel in the collection of High Gothic architecture. The second deck or upper level of the church is almost completely enclosed in stained glass window. The monks appeared from side aisles in their long white robes, carrying lit candles and chanting as they moved to the nave. It was an over whelming experience and I shall never forget it.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 23, 2005 - 02:58 am
    "Gregory's deeper venture into theology took the form of the Magna moralia -- a six-volume commentary on the Book of Job.

    "He takes the drama as literal history in every line. But also he seeks in every line an allegorical or symbolical significance and ends by finding in Job the full Augustinian theology.

    "The Bible is in every sense the word of God. It is a complete system of wisdom and beauty in itslf. No man should waste his time and debase his morals by reading the pagan classics.

    "However, the Bible is occasionally obscure and is oftehn couched in popular or pictorial language. It needs careful interpretation by trained minds. The Church, as custodian of sacred tradition, is the only proper interpreter.

    "Individual reason is a weak and divisive instrument, not designed to deal with supernatural ralities. 'When the intllect seeks to understand beyond its powers, it loses even that which it understood.'

    "God is beyond our understanding. We can only say what He is not, not what He is. 'Almost everything that is said of God is unworthy for the very reason tht it is capable of being said.'

    "Hence Gregory makes no formal attempt to prove the existnce of God. But, he argues, we can adumbrate Him by considering the human soul. Is it not the living force and guide of the body? Says Gregory:-'Many of our time have often seen souls departing from the body.'

    "The tragedy of man is that by original sin his nature is corrupt and inclines him to wickedness. This basic spiritual malformation is transmitted from parent to child through sexual procreation. Left to himself, man would heap sin upon sin and richly deserve everlasting damnation.

    "Hell is no mere phrase. It is a dark and bottomless subterranean abyss created from the beginning of the world. It is an inextinguishable fire, corporeal and yet able to sear soul as well as flesh. It is eternal and yet it never destroys the damned, or lessens their sensitivity to pain. And to each moment of pain is added the terror of expected pain, the horror of witnessing the tortures of love ones also damned, the despair of every being released or allowd the blessing annihilation.

    "In a softer mood Gregory developed Augustine's doctrine of a purgatory in which the dead would complete their atonement for forgiven sins.

    "And, like Augustine, Gregory comforted those whom he had terrified by remainding them of the gift of God's grace, the intercession of the saints, the fruits of Christ's sacrifice, the mysterious saving effect of sacraments available to all Christian penitents."

    "Gregory comforted those whom he had terrified." Sounds like being the bad cop and the good cop wrapped up in one person.

    This is a powerful section by Durant. Any comments?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 23, 2005 - 03:30 am
    This is a NY Times ARTICLE about Science and Religion.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 23, 2005 - 03:35 am
    Here is the Revised Standard version of the BOOK OF JOB.

    Robby

    Ruie Lue
    August 23, 2005 - 03:42 am
    I don,t think any one is willing to denie the lasting mark that the monastic era & its great intilluctials left on our western culture. But, living in Southern Germany I have come to appreciate the lasting mark left by the more numerous Brothers who dealt with "the world". Thief marks are everywhere. town sights. Never out of sight of a church tower & sound of the bells. Lay out of the roads:with a lot of help from the Romans:. It is not an accident that the U.S. basses are whee the Romans were-geography dictates history. My point being that the materal influnce could be as great as the intilluctial? Please this is a ballon-try to shoot it down!

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 23, 2005 - 04:08 am
    Where in Germany do you live, Ruie Lue?

    Robby

    Ruie Lue
    August 23, 2005 - 04:16 am
    Wurtzburg,so naturally the marks of the

    church & Romans are very plane.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 23, 2005 - 04:18 am
    Ruie Lue:-So good to have you with us!

    Robby

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 23, 2005 - 07:01 am
    RueiLue, of course, "geography dictates history". What happens even in this era can often be predicted because of geography. Is it not because of geography that civilization progresses? Why are the Northern Hemisphere nations better situated geographically for major scientific advancement-which provides better weapons-than the Southern Hemisphere ones? Climate is a unforgiving dictator. Both Napoleon and Hitler lost their battles in Russian snow drifts.

    In S of C history we are moving north of the Alps and I forgot who said that, but south of the Alps, the temperature is too clement. Northern climate peoples are more resilient to hardship and privation than southern population, especially around the Mediterranean sea.

    Modern weaponry which eliminates this geographic barrier disturbs this balance between warring nations, but Northerers will always have the the upper hand over Southern nations I fear.

    Éloïse

    Justin
    August 23, 2005 - 03:44 pm
    Robby; Book of Job is not accessible.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 23, 2005 - 04:36 pm
    Here is the BOOK OF JOB in Revised Edition.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 23, 2005 - 05:11 pm
    Thanks, Robbie. I substituted the King James. As one reads these passages, especially chapter 2, it is evident that God has some faults. He is convinced that Job loves Him but He allows Satan to challenge Him. He Who knows all gives Satan clearance to test Job by depriving him of all worldly goods, including good health. Job never wavers but God knew this all along. Why is God willing to please Satan when He knows the outcome of Job's trials? Theology can be fun when reason is applied to such passages as these. This is not the first time God plays games with his admirers. Remember Abraham and Isaac.

    Justin
    August 23, 2005 - 05:35 pm
    Gregory the Great, is, in many ways, responsible for the "Dark Ages". The "darkness" historians are concerned about is that of superstition. It descends upon a medieval people and creates a fear so palpable that man is cowed into submission before the Lord God and his representatives. Gregory declares the Bible and it's message all powerful and prohibits reading pagan classics. At the same time he declares that only the church is capable of exegetics ie: of reading and interpreting the all powerful bible. He tells his followers that "many have often seen souls departing from the body."He describes man as naturally corrupt and inclined to wickedness. It is transmitted from parent to child." Hell, he describes, in terrifying detail. He dies in 604 and launches the Le Moyen Age, as no other. He is cannonized for his achievment and referred to as Great. .

    tooki
    August 23, 2005 - 08:18 pm
    In the NYT article on scientists and religion Dr. Frances S. Collins, who directs the National Human Genome Research Institute, is discussed. Dr. Collins was a nonbeliever until he was 27. After reading “Mere Christianity,” by C. S. Lewis, Dr Collins became a Christian, non-denominational, but indeed a Christian.

    C. S. Lewis (1898-1963) deserves a few words in passing. He was a member of a small group of Oxford dons who met in his rooms during WWII to discuss their works in progress. Lewis was a Magdalen tutor in medieval literature. Besides being a medieval scholar, beginning with the publication in 1936 of “The Allegory of Love.” he published children’s fiction, science fiction novels and Christian allegories and apologetics. His children’s fiction includes the ever popular “The Chronicles of Namia.”

    His great friend and fellow writer was Ronald Tolkien, a renowned authority on Old and Middle English and the leading scholar on “Sir Gawain and the Green Knight,” who figures largely in tales of chivalry which this group will eventually discuss. This is, of course, the same Tolkien who wrote all the “Hobbit” books, i.e., “Lord of the Rings.”

    Interesting isn’t it, that an Oxford medievalist’s musings on Christianity received such a play in the NYT. The information given here is from “Inventing the Middle Ages.” The author, N. F. Cantor, goes on to discuss how Lewis and Tolkien have had an enormous effect in shaping the Middle Ages in the popular culture of the 20th century. They have communicated images of the Middle Ages that have entered completely into world culture.

    marni0308
    August 23, 2005 - 08:50 pm
    I just saw a preview of coming attractions of “The Chronicles of Namia" when I was at the movie theater. Looks quite fabulous. I never read the books - only heard of them recently. The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy, of course, has now captured new generations of readers and movie-goers.

    Marni

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 24, 2005 - 03:09 am
    "Gregory dominated the end of the sixth century as Justinian had dominated its beginning. His effect on religion was exceeded in this epoch only by that of Mohammed.

    "This same man, superstitious and credulous, physically shatteed with a terrified piety, was in will and action a Roman of the ancient cast, tenacious of purpose, stern of judgment, prudent and practical, in love with discipline and law.

    "He gave a law to monasticism, as Benedict had given it a title. He built the temporal power of the papacy, freed it from imperial domination and administered it with such wisdom and integrity that men would look to the papacy as a rock of refuge through tempestuous centuries.

    "His grateful successors canonized him and an admiring posterity called him Gregory the Great."

    Any final comments about Gregory?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 24, 2005 - 03:12 am
    Papal Politics

    604 - 867

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 24, 2005 - 03:30 am
    "Gregory's early successors found it hard to live up to his height of virtue or power.

    "For the most part they accepted domination by exarch or emperor and were repeatedly humiliated in their efforts to resist. The emperor Heraclius, anxious to unify his rescued realm, sought to reconcile the Monophysite East -- which held that there was but one nature in Christ -- with the orthodox West, which distinguished two.

    "His manifest Ekthesis (638), proposed an agreement through the doctrine of monotheism -- that there was but one will in Christ. Pope Honorius I agreed, adding that the question of one or two wills was 'a point which I leave to grammarians as a matter of very little importance.'

    "But the theologians of the West denounced his compliance. When the Emperor Constans II issued a proclamation (648) favoring monotheism Pope Martin I rejected it. Constans ordered the exarch of Ravenna to arrest him and bring him to Constantinople. Refusing to yield, the Pope was banished to the Crimea where he died (655).

    "The Sixth Ecumenical Council meeting at Constantinople in 680 repudiated monotheism, and condemned Pope Honorius, post mortem, as 'a favorer of heretics.'

    "The Eastern Church, chastened by the loss of Monophysite Syria and Egypt to the Moslems, concurred in the decision and theological peace hovered for a moment over East and West."

    I try to imagine what it would be like in our day if a pope was described as a "favorer of heretics."

    Robby

    tooki
    August 24, 2005 - 05:28 am
    Gregory the Great

    Painted c 1610 by Carlo Saraceni, 1570-1620

    Scrawler
    August 24, 2005 - 08:30 am
    "In the country the darkness of night is friendly and familiar, but in a city, with its blaze of lights, it is unnatural, hostile and menacing. It is like a monstrous vulture that hovers, biding its time." ~ W. Somerset Maugham

    I bid thee farewell, as I go to the dark side. Not only I'm I going to a new city and a new apartment, but I'm getting a new computer system as well. I hope to be up and running before Christmas, but in case you all are lost to me I just wanted to thank you for your company as together we traveled through time.

    May you always find peace and may the force be with you.

    Justin
    August 24, 2005 - 11:41 am
    Once again a theological issue is resolved by force of arms and the power of politics. This time the Pope himself is overcome and the issue of one vrs. two wills in Christ is resolved. It is not important at all, apparently, whether Christ actually had one will or two. What is important is that a political power figure be right in his choice. The argument could just as easily have been one of whether Christ had two heads or one. (Spiritual and Human). Fourteen centuries later, these questions are no longer questions. They are resolved sacred dogma which the faithful accept without question.

    Justin
    August 24, 2005 - 12:11 pm
    Contemporary religious officials appear to be operating with two wills. Pat Robertson on the one hand thinks the ten commandments should be the law of the land but on the other hand he advocates and promotes the murder of a foreign head of state. Pope Benedict thinks God's commandments should be obeyed but on the other hand he seeks exemption from prosecution for a cover-up of child abuse in an American Diocese. Aren't these guys just wonderful.No one knows whether Christ had one will or two but his successors clearly have two wills -one for themselves and one for parishioners.

    kiwi lady
    August 24, 2005 - 01:53 pm
    Justin that is not my idea of Christianity. Christianity to me is a faith which should be rooted strongly in reconciliation and pacifism also. I shudder at the thought of force being advocated from those who claim to be adherents of the faith. The Jewish nation wanted Jesus to take up arms against the Romans he refused. There is our example!

    As I read history I am horrified at what is done in the name of religion!

    MeriJo
    August 24, 2005 - 02:17 pm
    Eloise, Joan K. 3Kings, thank you for your support. I'll remember all your good suggestions. And Justin, I accept your explanation, thank you. I have truly enjoyed the intellectual back and forth, and wanted to be part of it.

    Robby, thank you, too, for your wisdom and forbearance.

    I shall visit again from time to time, but in the immediate future, next week, I am to go to the hospital for a hip replacement and cannot be here for awhile.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 24, 2005 - 03:26 pm
    Scrawler and MeriJo:-You two are not lost to us. The best of luck as your life progresses and we expect to see you back here in the not too distant future.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 24, 2005 - 04:31 pm
    Merijo: It's nice to know you will be back. Good luck with your hip replacement. The doctors do wonderful things with ball joints these days.

    JoanK
    August 24, 2005 - 04:35 pm
    SCRAWLER: I keep telling you, I've got those Saint Bernards all trained and ready to go out and find you if you don't return.

    MARIJO: Good luck. Do drop by the "Hips and Knees" discussion to hear other's experiences. My hip replacement was scheduled for July, but has been postponed.

    HIPS AND KNEES DISCUSSION

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    August 24, 2005 - 04:45 pm
    MeriJo, so sorry that you will be absent for a little while. Do come back to us, we will be still here when you come back. Don't forget there are still 7 more volumes before we find out if we are civilized or not.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 24, 2005 - 04:47 pm
    "The repeated humiliations of the papacy by the Eastern emperors, the weakening of Byzantium by Moslem expansion in Asia, Africa, and Spain by Moslem control of the Mediterranean, and by the inability of Constantinople or Ravenna to protect the papal estates in Italy from Lombard assaults, drove the popes to turn from the declining Empire and seek aid from the rising Franks.

    "Pope Stephen II (752-7), fearful that a Lombard capture of Rome would reduce the papacy to a local bishopric dominated by Lombard kings, appealed to the Emperor Constantine V. No help came thence and the Pope, in a move fraught with political consequences, turned to the Franks.

    "Pepin the Short came, subdued the Lombards, and enriched the papacy with the 'Donation of Pepin,' giving it all central Italy (756). So was established the temporal power of the popes. This brilliant papal diplomacy culminated in the coronation of Charlemagne by Leo III (800). Thereafter no man could be an accepted emperor in the West without anointment by a pope. The harassed bishopric of Gregory I had become one of the greatest powers in Europe.

    "When Charlemagne died (814), the domination of the Church by the Frank state was reversed. Step by step the clergy of France subordinated its kings and while the empire of Charlemagne collapsed, the authority and influence of the Church increased."

    Where does belief in God fit into all this?

    Robby

    Justin
    August 24, 2005 - 04:54 pm
    Carolyn: History has been telling us the reality of religion. The rest may be only wishful thinking. If the current players no more abide by the rules than their medieval counterparts what else can we conclude. I do so wish religion, any kind, were as you describe it. There are so many good ,kind, thoughtful people in the world who want religion to be a good thing, one would think it could be so.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 24, 2005 - 04:57 pm
    More about POPE STEPHEN II AND PEPIN THE SHORT.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 24, 2005 - 05:01 pm
    What Durant has been describing has very little to do with belief in God. He has been talking about a power struggle between the Pope, Bishops, and lower clergy on the one hand and the emperors,kings, and lower nobility of the world on the other. Ordinary guys, the ditch diggers, have only to serve.

    Justin
    August 24, 2005 - 05:07 pm
    The role of Pepin the Short reminds me of the cavalry in US western movies. Stephen needs help with his temporal holdings, the eastern emperors won't help so in rides the cavalry. When he leaves, he takes his share and leaves the Pepin Donation for the Vatican to defend. The Lombards took Milan and that is why Milan is so different from the rest of Italy today.

    moxiect
    August 24, 2005 - 05:08 pm


    Hi Robby,

    Just dropping by to let you know, I'm lurking about and learning!

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 24, 2005 - 05:25 pm
    Lurk on, Moxie!!

    Robby

    mabel1015j
    August 24, 2005 - 06:35 pm
    The one thing that Gregory said that makes sense to me is "Almost anything that is said of God is unworthy for the very reason that it is being capable of being said."

    Quite a different thought than those who feel arrogant enough to tell us "God wants us to......."

    Isn't it wonderful how the arrogance of televangelists, bishops,popes, emporers, presidents, the righteous, etc, trips them up in the end? Their arrogance gives them the illusion that they are above the law, that they have the "word" and must speak it no matter how outrageous, that video cameras will not see them, that because they have the power to speak to millions, they can say anything they want, that they MUST do whatever they can to win the election/war/whatever, because the other side is EVIL and finally they overstep, tripping themselves up before the world.

    PBS did a wonderful show comparing C.S.Lewis and Einstein's believe and non-believe in God.........jean

    MeriJo
    August 24, 2005 - 08:16 pm
    Thank you all for your good wishes. Thanks for your link, Joan K. I expect to be busy this weekend going over things and exercises. I have the pre-op visit with the orthopedist tomorrow so I'll know just when I am to go to the hospital on Monday.

    What an experience this is!

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 25, 2005 - 03:21 am
    Is this an important step on the way toward being CIVILIZED?

    Robby

    tooki
    August 25, 2005 - 06:25 am
    too many kinglets and popelets, everyone jostling for a piece of the action – Europe. During this period the Church wasn’t interested, or perhaps even able, in saving souls. It was interested in increasing its temporal power and was only one power player among many.

    It had an immense advantage over other players because it already had the corporate and institutional organization that it developed by being part of the Roman Empire. It wasn’t called the Holy Roman Empire for nothing.

    The other players, although some of them might have salvaged remnants of the Roman Empire’s administrative apparatus, were innovating new forms of government for their budding kingdoms. (Or, perhaps, budding kingdomlets.) All players needed to figure out how to finance their actions, either saving souls or busting heads.

    Justin
    August 25, 2005 - 03:50 pm
    Before leaving Gregory l we should deal with one of his most lasting legacies. He introduced the thought that reading the bible was not a task that should be left to parishioners. The book was too complex and therefore it should be restricted to clerical people who knew how to read it. Exegetics was not a layman's task. That policy has persisted. Today, pious Catholics rarely read the bible. They read missals containing excerpts of the gospels. Protestants read the Bible and Evangelicals use it as a single source for God messages.

    In general, I think Gregory was right. Evangelicals who read the Bible tend to distort the message by relying upon verses rather than chapters for information. Messages taken out of context may be used to satisfy personal needs but do not give one a clear understanding of Biblical messages.

    3kings
    August 25, 2005 - 04:48 pm
    Justin Your support of Gregory in 868# is surprising. To say that the teachings of Christ are too complex to be left for lay people to interpret, strikes me as being a tad too elitist.

    My reading of the Bible leads me to feel that Christ went to great lengths to make his message clear. Do you really think the people are uncertain of his message ? ++ Trevor

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 25, 2005 - 05:07 pm
    My French war bride who came over to the U.S. to marry me in 1947 was a Catholic by default because "everyone" in France was Catholic. She was an intelligent woman yet had never read the Bible. She said that the priests told the people that they would interpret the Bible for them. She was not yet that fluent in English so in order for us to attend a Bible study group, I obtained a Bible in French.

    Lo and behold, the verses between the French and English Bibles were often very different to the point where we couldn't discuss specific verses.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 25, 2005 - 05:28 pm
    The Greek Church

    566-898

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 25, 2005 - 05:47 pm
    "The patriarchs of the Eastern Church could not admit the overriding jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome for a simple reason.

    "They had long since been subordinated to the Greek emperors and these would not until 871 abandon their claim to sovereignty over Rome and its popes. The patriarchs occasionally criticized, disobeyed, even denounced the emperors but they were appointed and deposed by the emperors who called ecclesiastical councils, regulated church affairs by state law and published their theological opinions and directives to the ecclesiastical world.

    "The only checks on the religious autocracy of the emperor in Eastern Christendom were the power of the monks, the tongue of the patriarch and the vow taken by the emperor at his coronation by the patriarch that he could introduce no novelty into the Church.

    "Constantinople -- indeed all the Greek East -- was now dotted with monasteries and nunneries in far greater number than in the West.

    "The monastic passion captured some of the Byzantine emperors themselves. They lived like ascetics amid the luxury of the palace, heard Mass daily, ate abstemiously, and bemoaned their sins as sedulously as they committed them.

    "The piety of emperors and of the moribund rich enlarged and multipled the monasteries with gifts and legacies. Men and womn of high rank, frightened by omens of death, sought admission to monastries and brought with them an ingratiating wealth that would no longer be subject to taxation. Others deeded some of their property to a monastery which then paid them an annuity.

    "Many monasteries claimed to possess relics of revered saints. People credited the monks with control of the wonder working power of these relics and offered their coins in the hope of making an unreasonable profit on their investments.

    "A minority of the monks disgraced their faith with idleness, venery, faction, and greed. The majority were reconciled to virtue and peace.

    "Altogether the monks enjoyed a popular veneration, a material wealth, and even a political influence that no emperor could ignore. Theodore (759-826), Abbot of the monastery of Studion in Constantinople, was an exemplar of monastic piety and power. Dedicated to the Church by his mother in his childhood, he accepted the Christian mood so thoroughly that in his mother's last illness, he complimented her on her approaching death and glory.

    "He drew up for his monks a code of labor, prayer, chastity, and intellectual development that could stand comparison with that of Benedict in the West.

    "He defended the use of religious images and boldly denied, before the Emperor Leo V, that the secular power had any jurisdiction over ecclesiastical affairs.

    "Four times he was banished for this intransigence but fronm his exile he continud to resist the Iconoclasts until his death."

    How different the East was (is?) from the West.

    Robby

    Ruie Lue
    August 25, 2005 - 05:58 pm
    The intalictual impact is clear to Americans. But just as clear and even more pervasive (you have to be thinking about the topic to get the intellectual impact) just be awake to get the Material. IN Europe there are centuries of the "Works" from great cathedrals to roadside shrines to the practical; mills, field systems and layout of vinyards.How ever right or wrong their "Ideas" were they shaped a culture by their daily practice. The shape remains knowling or not.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 25, 2005 - 06:13 pm
    A detailed account of EASTERN MONASTICISM.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 25, 2005 - 06:19 pm
    Further info about THEODORE ABBOT OF STUDION.

    Robby

    tooki
    August 25, 2005 - 08:42 pm
    Here is a pageful of icons. Click on the thumbnail for a good large image. Many of the scenes depicted were new to me. Theordore, the Studite is in the eighth row down. There is a wonderful mosiac of Justinian also. Looking at all these images made me appreciate the art of the icon. A brief account of the icon contraversy is given.

    I'm sorry, but all the code at the top of the page is Greek to me.

    Justin
    August 25, 2005 - 10:04 pm
    Trevor: Dip in anywhere to find a verse or two that needs fixing before passing it on to laymen. . Let me offer an example of lay reading that leads to conclusions not good for the clergy. I open at random to...

    Luke: 16:19- There was a certain rich man who fared well.
    There was a certain beggar...
    The beggar died and was carried to Abraham's bosom.
    The rich man also died and in hell he cried "Father have mercy on me."

    Here we have the lot of the rich.The message is "Do not make lots of money or else..."

    Bad for the free enterprise system, yes, but also bad for the church for it displays its wealth as a sign of power. Will all the clergy go to hell? After all,they are quite wealthy. The answer is, don't read the bible. The clergy will read and interpret it for you.

    3kings
    August 25, 2005 - 10:49 pm
    Justin "He introduced the thought that reading the bible was not a task that should be left to parishioners. The book was too complex and therefore it should be restricted to clerical people who knew how to read it. Exegetics was not a layman's task.

    In general, I think Gregory was right."

    Now look at the passage you quoted above.(Luke: 16 : 19 ) There is no possibility of misinterpreting those words. As you said, there is nothing "too complex" about it.

    So why do you think Gregory was right in his claim that it was too complex for lay people ?

    Or, are you talking tongue in cheek. If so, I apologize for taking you too literally. ++ Trevor

    Justin
    August 25, 2005 - 11:57 pm
    Yes, Trevor. "Complex" is tongue in cheek. You catch me every time.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 26, 2005 - 03:43 am
    Tooki:-Thank you for that great link. I was also interested in the phrase at the end which said:-"We venerate Thy most pure image" which, if I understand Islam at all, is exactly the opposite of what they say, i.e. no images to be permitted or venerated.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 27, 2005 - 04:03 am
    "Differences of language, liturgy and doctrine during these centuries drove Latin and Greek Christianity further and further apart, like a biological species divided in space and diversified in time.

    "Greek liturgy, ecclesiastical vestments, vessels, and ornaments were more complex, ornate, and artistically wrought than those of the West.

    "The Greek cross had equal arms.

    "The Greeks prayed standing the Latins kneeling.

    "The Greeks baptized by immersion, the Latins by aspersion.

    "Marriage was forbidden to Latin, permitted to Greek priests.

    "Latin priests shaved, Greek priests had contemplative beards.

    "The Latin clergy specialized in politics. The Greek in theology.

    "Heresy almost always rose in an East that had inherited the Greek passion for defining the infinite.

    "From the old Gnositc hereies of Bardesanes in Syria and perhaps from the westward movement of Manichean ideas, there arose in Armenia about 660 a sect of Paulicians that took its name from St. Paul, rejected the Old Testament, the sacraments, the reverence paid to images, the symbolism of the cross. Like some advancing pullulation these groups and theories spread through the Near East into the Balkans, Italy, and France.

    "They bore heroically the most merciless pesecutions and still survive as remnants in the Molokhani, the Khlysti, and the Dukhobors.

    "The monothelite controvrsy was more agitated by the emperors than by the people. Doubtless the people were not resonsible for the filioque that so tragically advanced the schism of Greek from Latin Christianity.

    "The Nicene Creed had spooken of 'the Holy Ghost who proceedeth from the Father' -- ex patre procedit. For 250 years this sufficed but in 589 a church council at Toledo made the statement read ex patre filioque procedit -- 'proceedeth from the Father and the Son.'

    "This addition was accepted in Gaul and zealously adopted by Charlemagne. The Greek theologians protested that the Holy Ghost proceeded not from but through the Son.

    "The popes held the balance patiently for a time and not until the eleventh century was the filioque officially entered into the Latin creed."

    How unusual the Greek approaches seem to most of us who are from the Latin roots. East is East and West is West etc...?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 27, 2005 - 04:10 am
    This link to the GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH leads to other related links.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 27, 2005 - 04:20 am
    Here is an amazingly long and detailed list of ECCLESIASTICAL TERMS which you may want to print out and use as we move forward in "The Age of Faith."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 27, 2005 - 04:35 am
    Here are pictures of the many different versions of the CHRISTIAN CROSS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 27, 2005 - 04:42 am
    Here is a MAP showing the area influenced by the Greek Orthodox Church.

    Robby

    tooki
    August 27, 2005 - 05:52 am
    Robby, your list of terms is excellent. I suppose it doesn't contain 'filioque' because it's not a 'term,' it's a ccncept.

    I found Durants' explanation too brief to really understand. Although there are many discussions of this important issue on the web, most of them are way too esoteric for me. The one I've given seems the most direct. It does emphasize the possibility that the difference of opionion between east and west on this issue were based on linguistics. Greek and Latin are not mutually equivelent.

    Filioque

    tooki
    August 27, 2005 - 05:54 am
    in above post. They seem to have reappeared. Let's see: ''''. Ya, I'm OK. Sorry.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 27, 2005 - 02:55 pm
    Can there be quiet and prayer in a 10,000-SEAT CHURCH?

    Robby

    Justin
    August 27, 2005 - 03:35 pm
    The differences we see between east and west, between Greek and Latin may seem trivial ie; kneeling vrs. standing, beard vrs clean shaven, celibacy versus marriage, origin of the Holy Ghost, but these differences have persisted and still separate Latin from Greek rites. The real cause of the split, it should surprise no one, was political and it will not occur for another two centuries but when the split came these trivia were open sores. The question of celibacy is an open sore today and its effect on the clergy as well as upon society is tragic.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 27, 2005 - 05:06 pm
    "A struggle of wills was added to the conflict of ideas.

    "Among the monks who had fled from Iconoclastic oppression was Ignatius, son of the Emperor Michael I. In 840 the Empress Theodora recalled the monk and made him patriarch. He was a man of piety and courage. He denounced the prime minister Caesar Bardas who had divorced his wife and lived with the widow of his son.

    "When Bardas persisted in incest, Ignatius excluded him from the Church. Bardas banished Ignatius and raised to the patriarchate the most accomplished scholar of the age (959).

    "Photius (820?-91) was a master of philology, oratory, science, and philosophy. His lectures at the University of Constantinople had drawn to him a group of devoted students to whom he opened his library and his home. Shortly before his promotion to the patriarchal see he had completed an encyclopedic Myriobiblion in 280 chapters, each of which reviewed and sampled an important book.

    "Through this vast compilation many passages of classic literature were preserved. His broad culture raised Photius above the fanaticism of the populace which could not understand why he remained on such good terms with the emir of Crete. His sudden elevation from layman to patriarch offended the clergy of Constantinople.

    "Ignatius refused to resign and appealed to the bishop of Rome. Nicholas I sent legates to Constantinople to inqure into the case. In letters to the Emperor Michael III and Photius he laid down the principle that no ecclesiastical matter of grave moment should be decided anywhere in Christndom without the consent of the pope.

    "The emperor called a church council which ratified the appointment of Photius and the Pope's legates joined inthe confirmtion. When they returned to Rome, Nicholas repudiated them as having exceeded their instruction. He ordered the Emperor to reinstate Ignatius. When his command was ignored he excommunicated Photius (863).

    "Bardas thratened to send an army to depose Nicholas. The Pope, in an eloquent reply, scornfully pointed to the Emperor's submission to the marauding Slavs and Saracens.

    'We have not invaded Crete. We have not depopulated Sicily. We have not subdued Greece. We have not burned the churches in the very suburbs of Constantinople. Yet while these pagans with impunity conquer, burn, and lay waste your territories, we, Catholic Christians, are menaced with the vain terrof your arms. Ye release Barabbas and kill Christ.'

    "Photius and the Emperor called another church council which excommunicated the Pope (867) and denounced the 'heresies' of the Roman Church -- among them the procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father and the Son, the shaving of priestly beards and the enforced celibacy of the clergy.

    "Said Photius:-'From this usage we see in the West so many children who do not know their fathers.'"

    The phrase "excommunication of the Pope" sounds so strange.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 27, 2005 - 06:38 pm
    The rule of celibacy was a problem in the eighth and ninth centuries when Photius complained that many children in the west did not know their fathers. The church has hidden this problem from the laity for over twelve hundred years. Think of the arrogance and stubborness of these prideful,avowed and willing eunuchs who have preyed upon our young and hidden it all these years.

    The real social problem here may well lie with parishioners who ignored signs coming from their children who were embarassed to talk about it. The victims must also share some blame for they knew and they allowed the practice to continue even after they reached adulthood. The brave ones who complained apparently did not persist for bishops bought their silence for some price.

    3kings
    August 27, 2005 - 08:50 pm
    Justin All decent folk share your disgust with the sexual abuse of women and children. It is a shameful practice that has probably persisted since before we came down from the trees.

    While it is true we need look no further for evidence of it than within the Catholic Church, it is also true that it existed before the Church was created, and regretfully it may be with us, long after the churches have faded into oblivion.

    Religious folk indulge in these practices, it is true, but unfortunately it is found throughout humankind, irrespective of creed or race.

    I know you are as aware of this as I am, but you keep pointing at the Church to the exclusion of other, equally guilty parties. ++ Trevor

    Justin
    August 27, 2005 - 09:20 pm
    Trevor; I point to the Church only because I think celibacy rules exacerbate the problem. The eastern rite points to celibacy as opposed to apostolic practice. Phocia said it was a cause of sexual abuse in the ninth century. The problem with Catholicism is that the hierarchy does not learn from past mistakes. It had known this rule is a problem for centuries and that it is against apostolic practice. Yet, it does nothing to change the rule. The hierarchy deserves to be hammered on this until it recognizes its error.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 28, 2005 - 04:20 am
    Thoughts about the Greek Church?

    Robby

    tooki
    August 28, 2005 - 05:59 am
    The excommunication of the Pope, the murder of Caesar Barda, the accession of Basil I, after assassinating Michael III, and the restoration of Ignatius, who promptly dies, sums up the existential absurdity of the Greek church at this time as much as unnatural celibacy does the Roman.

    tooki
    August 28, 2005 - 06:05 am
    But, boy, did those folks know how to dress. Those wonderful clothes shown in icons are still used. Here are some wonderful examples.

    Stylin' With The Greek Church

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 28, 2005 - 07:03 am
    Great pictures, Tooki. Hard to be humble while wearing one of those!!

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 28, 2005 - 04:30 pm
    The Christian Conquest of Europe

    529-1054

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 28, 2005 - 04:39 pm
    "The most momentous event in the religious history of these centuries was not the quarrel of the Greek with the Latin Church but the rise of Islam as a challenge to Christianity in both East and West.

    "The religion of Christ had hardly consolidated its victories over the pagan Empire and the heresies when suddenly its most fervid provinces were torn from it, and with alarming ease, by a faith tht scorned both the theology and the ethics of Christianity.

    "Patriarchs still sat, by Muslem tolerance, in the sees of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria. But the Christian glory was departed from those regions. What Christianity remained in them was heretical and nationalist.

    "Armenia, Syria and Egypt had set up church hierarchies quite independent of either Constantinople or Rome.

    "Greece was saved to Christianity. There the monks triumphed over the philosphers and the great monastery of the Holy Lavra, established on Mt. Athos in 961, rivaled the majesty of the Parthenon which had become a Christian church.

    "Africa still had many Christians in the ninth century but they were rapidly diminishing under the handicaps of Moslem rule. In 711 most of Spain was lost to Islam.

    "Defeated in Asia and Africa, Christianity turned north, and resumed the conquest of Europe."

    Christianity on the run -- and from the forces of Islam. Are we reading today's newspapers?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 28, 2005 - 04:47 pm
    History, legend and photo of MT. ATHOS AND MONASTERIES.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 28, 2005 - 04:51 pm
    SPAIN around 711.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 28, 2005 - 09:34 pm
    Reading about Islam's attack on Africa in the eighth century certainly reminds me of Sudan today. How is it different? Of course, today we have the UN to intervene in ethnic cleansing efforts but that body may be restricted cleasing between nations and not within nations. Perhaps that is why the killing continues unabated. If Bush were not engaged in Iraq we might have been able to intervene with some excuse. It is where we belong. We should be preventing such things not attacking imaginary enemies or avenging familiy honor.

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 03:58 am
    STATISTICS about Sudan.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 04:40 am
    Read about HUNGER IN SUDAN.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 04:43 am
    As we read about these news article referring to Sudan, we are keeping in mind Durant's remark that "the most momentous event in history a thousand years ago was the rise of Islam as a challenge to Christianity."

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    August 29, 2005 - 11:34 am
    Lots of interesting discussion.

    Justin I struggle with the idea of large amounts of money being made by clergy and clergy living in splendour. I do not believe that is how Christ envisaged the church. He envisaged it as an institution like the early church which was like minded people who cared and shared with each other as well as having compassion for their neighbours. The story of the Good Samaritan is an illustration of how we should treat people who are different from us.

    Power and Politics have hijacked religion. I have no time for any of it whatever faith it is. Its pure politics disguised as religion.

    It stuns me that the crusades that were undertaken by both zealots of Islam and Christianity included murdering those who did not bow down to the espoused faith. It included plundering as well. Again I believe the crusades were political.

    Human beings in the main seem to be incapable of loving one another as we are called to in all the great religions. Greed and the lust for power are the two most destructive forces in the world and have been since the beginning of time.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    August 29, 2005 - 12:24 pm
    Carolyn: I may have said this before but it is worth repeating, I think. Religious concepts may have been inspired by heavenly powers but religion is implemented by men. Some people who believe tend to emphasize the inspirational aspects while others see the realities of religion. Religion in action is a very different thing from it's heavenly tenets.The Golden Rule is nice to talk about but it does not help much when religions promote one God over another God. That's what caused the Crusades and the Inquisition and other promotional adventures. It is hard not to be a realist in this world and I admire your ability to adhere to the inspirational side of religion.

    Ruie Lue
    August 29, 2005 - 12:50 pm
    I can't seem to find the last posts (no message button). So many wonderful ;inks that I,ll never get caught up!

    tooki
    August 29, 2005 - 01:48 pm
    Why did all the old time Christians go over to Islam so easily? The Moslems were not brutal in their conversion attempts; Durant speaks to “Moslem tolerance.” Back on pages 188-190 he discusses the many causes that produced the Arab expansion, worth reviewing in light of his view of the momentous nature of this event.

    One effect of the early, sudden and through expansion of Islam is that now those lands on the eastern and southern shores of the Mediterranean are thought by many to be the homeland of Islamic civilization. Many folks are surprised and sometimes perplexed to know that St. Augustine’s home was Hippo, in Tunisia.

    All this is important if you care to address the issue, “Who owns Palestine.” The Jews abandoned it during the “Dispersion of A. D. 70"; it became Christian, then the Arabs conquered it. After many vicissitudes, by the beginning of the 20th century it was “owned” by Great Britain. Under the terms of The Belfour Declaration in 1917 it was promised to the Zionists as a homeland. Then, of course, after WWII, the Jewish people did indeed go home.

    Perhaps it’s irrelevant to talk about who owns what. From what we’ve seen so far, if a country, religion, or king conquers, captures, or otherwise obtains it – it’s theirs!

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 05:27 pm
    Ruie Lue:-Regarding your catching up -- I usually make two posts a day, one about 7 a.m., the other about 8 p.m. (ET). Most participants in this discussion group find that checking in on The Story of Civilization once a day will keep them up to date.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 05:37 pm
    "Italy,bravely but narrowly saved from the Saracens, was divided between the Greek and Latin forms of Christianity.

    "Almost on the dividing line was Monte Cassino. Under the long rule (1058-87) of Abbot Desiderius the monastery reached the zenith of its fame. From Constantinople he brought not only two magnificent bronze doors but craftsmen who adorned the interiors with mosaics, enamels, and artistry in metal, ivory, and wood.

    "The monastery became almost a university with courses in grammar, classical as well as Christian liteature, theology, medicine, and law. Following Byzantine models, the monks executed exceptionally fine illuminated manuscripts and copied in a beautiful book hand the classics of pagan Rome. Some classics were only thus preserved.

    "In Rome the Church, under Pope Boniface IV and his successors, instead of permitting the further disintegration of pagan temples, reconsecrated them to Christian use and care. The Pantheon was dedicated to the Virgin Mary and All Martyrs (609), the temple of Janus became the church of St. Dionysius, the temple of Saturn became the church of the Saviour.

    "Leo IV (847-55) renewed and embellished St. Peter's and through the growth of the papacy and the coming of pilgrims, a polyglot suburb grew around that group of ecclesiastical buildings which took its name from the ancient Vatican Hill."

    Interesting story of how the Vatican developed.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 05:43 pm
    By the way, Saturday was our anniversary -- one year during which we have discussed Volume IV, The Age of Faith. Each of the previous three volumes took us about 9 months for the entire volume. In this volume we have discussed 530 out of 1086 pages, approximately one half of the book. At the beginning I stated that we were about to discuss 1000 years in !000 pages.

    How do you think we have done?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 05:49 pm
    Here is a summary of the LATIN-GREEK DIVISION much of it centering about the nature of the Trinity.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 05:54 pm
    This link to Monte Cassino tells us (in the 4th paragraph) about ABBOT DESIDERIUS.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 05:59 pm
    Information about POPE BONIFACE IV.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 06:04 pm
    A photo of the PANTHEON.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 29, 2005 - 06:36 pm
    History of the VATICAN.

    Robby

    kiwi lady
    August 29, 2005 - 07:27 pm
    From what I have read in the past in both the Crusades Islam and Christianity it was convert or be killed as an infidel or unbeliever.

    tooki
    August 29, 2005 - 08:20 pm
    "The monks ...copied in a beautiful book hand the classics of...."

    Book hand is any script used for transcribing books. There are many such scripts. Here is a list and a glossary of other terms of medieval writing.

    Names of Book Hands

    Malryn (Mal)
    August 30, 2005 - 04:50 am

    How have we done? I think we have travelled much too far off track too many times in this discussion. It's a big book, but the fact that we have discussed only half of the book surprises me when previously it took less than a year to go through a book whatever its length. When is ROBBY ever going to be able to take a much-needed sabbatical?

    Mal

    Sunknow
    August 30, 2005 - 12:51 pm
    Hi Mal...good to see you posting around again. So glad you have your computer with you now. More changes in store for you, but keep in touch, we always miss you when you are "off" line.

    Enjoy the visit with Robby, Bubble, and Peta later in the week.

    Best of luck.

    Sun

    Justin
    August 30, 2005 - 12:57 pm
    Let's pick a convenient mid-book pause point before moving on. We all need a little R and R. What do you say, Robby? We will be leaving Christianity soon to take up feudalism. That may be a good place to pause.

    3kings
    August 30, 2005 - 03:06 pm
    Interesting to read about the early building and expansion of what later became the Vatican.

    Here on this pleasant hillside where my house now stands, was in Auckland's early days, referred to as the Vatican, because of its similar setting to the site in Rome.

    Today little remains of those early times in the life of Auckland. As the Catholic Church has declined, so has the presence of the Church in this landscape. The two schools, primary and secondary remain, but they are now part of the Government's Educational estate, and are staffed by lay teachers.

    Many Church buildings have been demolished, and the extensive lands have been bought by the City, and are being developed as a park.

    Clear evidence of the secularization of the people, and the decline of religious activity in this country. My wife, a devout Catholic, is upset by this, but for my part, I'm delighted to have such delightful parklands right on my doorstep. It is a joy to wander there and catch the sunrise in the cool air, or the sunset at the close or a lovely day. To me, such things are far more joyous than any Sunday sermon. ++ Trevor

    JoanK
    August 30, 2005 - 03:11 pm
    TREVOR: I couldn't agree more!

    robert b. iadeluca
    August 30, 2005 - 06:14 pm
    I am leaving early Saturday morning to be with Mal, Dorian, Bubble, Peta, and others and will return Wednesday night. Let's take those five days as a sabbatical.

    Robby

    Justin
    August 30, 2005 - 06:28 pm
    Trevor; I too, agree.

    Robby: I envy you your chance to be with Mal and Bubble. Give them my good wishes.

    kiwi lady
    August 31, 2005 - 03:18 pm
    Have a good trip Robby say Hi for me! Lucky you!

    Carolyn

    Sunknow
    August 31, 2005 - 03:32 pm
    Say hello for all of us....have a good trip.

    Sun

    JoanK
    August 31, 2005 - 04:18 pm
    Please give everyone hugs from me.

    Meanwhile, if any of you are having "History Withdrawal Symptoms", drop by Rembrandt's Eyes:

    REMBRANDT'S EYES

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 1, 2005 - 03:53 am
    Many participants (and lurkers) here have over the past months examined in detail the Islamic world. Now we are entering the world of Europe as it comes to birth. Here is an ARTICLE from this morning's New York Times which, during our sabbatical, may be something for us to chew on.

    Have Muslims paid any attention to "us Europeans" at all or have they just gone on their way in their own style as if we hardly exist? What do they think of us? What do we think of them? Did we think of them at all before 9/11?

    Is it true that the novel which is loved by Westerners "offers various paths" and that poetry, loved by Easterners, is "despotic?"

    Robby

    JoanK
    September 1, 2005 - 08:56 am
    ROBBY: that's fascinating!

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 1, 2005 - 04:09 pm
    OK folks! This is my last posting until I return from North Carolina Wednesday evening. I will be leaving Saturday morning. Please try not to let this forum turn into a political discussion group. It is so easy with what it going on these days. PLEASE?!

    "France was now the richest possession of the Latin Church.

    "The Merovingian kings, confident of buying heaven after enjoying polygamy and murder, showered the bishoprics with lands and revenues. Here, as elsewhere, the Church received legacies from penitent magnates and devout heiresses. Chilperic's prohibition of such bequests was soon canceled by Gunthram.

    "By one of the many pleasantries of history, the Gallic clergy were almost wholly recruited from the Gallo-Roman population. The converted Franks knelt at the feet of those whom they had conquered and gave back in pious donations what they had stolen in war.

    "The clergy were the ablest, best educated, and least immoral element in Gaul. They almost monopolized literacy.

    "Although a small minority led scandalous lives, most of them labored faithfully to give schooling and morals to a population suffering from the greed and wars of their lords and kings.

    "The bishops were the chief secular as well as religious authorities in their dioceses. Their tribunals were the favorite resort of litgants even in non-ecclesiastical concerns. Everywhere they took under their protection orphans and widows, paupers and slaves. In many dioceses the Church provided hospitals. One such Hotel-Dieu -- 'inn of God' -- was opened in Paris in 651.

    "St. Germain, Bishop of Paris in the second half of the sixth century, was known throughout Europe for his work in raising funds -- and spending his own -- to emancipate slaves. Bishop Sidonius of Mainz banked the Rhine. Bishop Felix of Nantes straightened the course of the Loire. Boshop Didier of Cahors constructed aqueducts.

    "St. Agobard (779-840), Archbishop of Lyons, was a model of religion and a foe of superstition. He condemned trial by duel or ordeal, the worship of images, the magical explanation of storms, and the fallacies involved in the prosecutions for witchcraft. He was 'the clearest head of his time.'

    "Hincmar, the aristocratic primate of Reims (845--82), presided over a score of church councils, wrote sixty-six books, served as prime minister to Charles the Bald and almost established a theocracy in France."

    Speaking of the "magical explanation of storms," it will be interesting to hear of the various causes of Katrina.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 2, 2005 - 04:55 am
    "In many dioceses the Church provided hospitals;...one such was opened in Paris in 651."

    Is This The First Hospital In Paris?

    I find it hard to imagine the sanitary conditions of a hospital in the early middle ages.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 3, 2005 - 05:42 am
    Good morning, S of C ers.

    I came back from the nursing home yesterday. Now I'm all dressed up and ready to go see ROBBY and BUBBLE and BUBBLE's friend, PETA from Australia, at the hotel near the Research Triangle Park and Durham, NC. Unfortunately, MAHLIA and her husband are unable to be there. I'll come in when I get back to tell you all about it.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 3, 2005 - 02:39 pm
    We arrived at the hotel lobby to find nobody there. Dorian checked and ROBBY was registered, so she called him on the phone. Not much later ROBBY appeared. He gave a big hug to my daughter on the sidewalk and came over to the car where I was waiting. I piled out of the car into the wheelchair and we went back in the breakfst area of the lobby where there is a fireplace, big flat screen TV and tables and chairs. We talked and talked, and BUBBLE and PETA did not come. Just as we were about to call them on the phone, ROBBY was called to the phone. It was BUBBLE, who told him that they had transportation problems and could not come. They wre registering in the hotel tomorrow night, and we'll go over and meet all three of them on Monday, and then go out for lunch.

    ROBBY, DORIAN and I went over to Southpoint Mall, an outdoor mall, for lunch at a seafood restaurant. ROBBY had a seafood salad with chicken that was too tough for him to eat. DORIAN had a Caesar salad, and I had "Boston" clam chowder and a shrimp Po' Boy sandwich.

    The shrimp were wonderful. Conversation was lively, and if your ears burned, well they should, because we talked a lot about S of C. ROBBY treated Dorian and me to this grand lunch, and we "rented" the table for over three hours and talked non-stop.

    After we got out, ROBBY was pushing me around, an experience, too, because I usually don't let discussion leaders push me around. He pushed me over to a part of the walkway area where two young guys were playing jazz guitars in a fantastic way. I loved them, and said, "You guys are great!" One of them introduced me to the rather small audience they had as "My new best friend."

    Well, it was a wonderful time we had, and I can't wait until Monday and more!

    Mal

    Justin
    September 3, 2005 - 03:33 pm
    Mal: You are beginning to sound like your old self- full of p--- and vinegar. Hooray!

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 3, 2005 - 05:14 pm
    Good show Mal, what a lively time you had together. It's nice to see you posting, please keep it up so we know what is happening to you.

    JoanK
    September 3, 2005 - 06:12 pm
    Great!! And thanks for giving us such a full description -- I feel like I was there.

    Robby pushing you around hmmm. A first!! But tell him it's good exercise. Although I have a feeling some of the pushing might go the other way! (Have you taught him to do wheelies yet?)

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 4, 2005 - 10:08 am
    Click the link below to access a page of pictures of the Iadeluca-Smith-Freeman mini-mini-mini bash yesterday.

    The Iadeluca-Smith-Freeman teeny weeny basherooni

    Justin
    September 4, 2005 - 04:46 pm
    Mal: You look great- a little skinny perhaps, but stylish and undaunted and happy. So what if your teeth don't fit, if you can smile that's enough to live with. You can always grow into your teeth.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2005 - 07:35 am
    All dressed up and ready to go join ROBBY, BUBBLE and PETA for lunch.

    BUBBLE's daughter, ILLY, arrived in North Carolina last night, ELOISE tells me, so we'll meet ILLY, too. We'll be taking pictures, which I'll post as soon as Dorian puts them on her computer and sends them to me.

    Trying to grow into my teeth, I'm Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2005 - 03:31 pm
    I was sitting in the car waiting for Dorian to come and tell me if anybody we knew was in the hotel lobby when at the window of the car I saw a familiar face. It was SEA_BUBBLE. We went in the breakfast table and chairs area of the lobby, and there were PETA and ROBBY. Well, we talked and talked until PETA went to see if ILLY, BUBBLE's daughter, wanted to join us for lunch.

    Finally, the two appeared. ILLY is a good-looking, personable young woman. PETA is an absolutely Australian woman, who likes to have fun.

    PETA and BUBBLE gave DORIAN, ROBBY and me gifts. What a nice surprise. BUBBLE even brought gifts for my two Pennsylvania grandchildren. I'll enjoy the bed socks she made for me during the long PA winter while I read Follow the Rabbit Proof Fence, the book PETA so thoughtfully gave me. BUBBLE also gave me some syrup made from dates that I"m anxious to try, and I can't remember what else. Christmas in September is what it felt like.

    Eventually we went over to the Streets at Southpoint Msll to an Italian restaurant and had lunch. The meal was served family style, and there was plenty of it. Stuffed mushrooms and mussels for appetizers along with a couple of salads, and I don't know what else. Spaghetti, eggplant parmegiano, grilled salmon Florentine, on and on. Tiaramisu and a kind of apple tart with spumoni on top for dessert. ROBBY treated us to this fantastic meal that none of us will probably ever forget.

    DORIAN and I took ROBBY back to the hotel. BUBBLE, PETA and ILLY stayed at Southpoint to shop.

    It was a most wonderful afternoon. BUBBLE is thougbtful and quiet. PETA is a real smiling extrovert. Such fun to see them both. ROBBY is ROBBY. There's no one like him in the world.

    As soon as Dorian sends me the pictures she took, I'll put them in Photos Then and Now and post a link here.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 5, 2005 - 05:59 pm


    CLICK HERE TO SEE THE PICTURES OF THE MINI-MINI-MINI NC BASH, ROUND 2

    JoanK
    September 5, 2005 - 09:49 pm
    GREAT! I can't decide who has the biggest smile, but between you all you light up my room.

    tooki
    September 6, 2005 - 06:31 am
    Mal, thanks so much for posting pictures and commentary. I enjoyed both. You must have a large wardrobe of hats. Actually, you remind me of Bella What's Her Name, the public, political figure who always wore wonderful hats.

    Just remember, keep your hat on straight.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 6, 2005 - 07:16 am
    TOOKI, I love hats and have a collection of fthem all bought on sale somewhere or other.

    I never keep my hat on straight. Does that have some significance?

    Here's a link that takes you to the beginning of the pictures. I see today that the links I posted earlier go to only the last two.

    Repeat of pictures

    tooki
    September 6, 2005 - 09:38 am
    Mal, can that be? Really, a statue! Wonderful! Here is Portland there is a sculpture of a fully dressed man with an umbrella, under which one can seek shelter as needed.

    Of course, if it's not a piece of art, the poor woman is in deep trouble.

    There's a famous Portland poster showing the back of a man clad, one assumes, only in a raincoat, facing a sculpture of a large, Rodinsque,woman. The caption is, "Expose yourself to Art!"

    Traude S
    September 6, 2005 - 07:34 pm
    TOOKI, that would be the formidable, unforgettable Bella Abzug, I believe.

    tooki
    September 6, 2005 - 08:32 pm
    Yes, Traude, Mal does have Bella's attributes, doesn't she? Thank you for remembering Bella.

    Here's a portrait. There are many others, but I like the hat in this one.

    Bella

    P.S. I too am a hat freak. When I overcome my shyness, I'll post a picture of me in one of my more memorable ones.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2005 - 06:04 am
    TOOKI, to answer your question: No, I am nothing like Bella Abzug; I just like hats, that's all. I began wearing them all the time to keep the light out of my eyes and the cancer off my face. Now I'm going to disappear and stay safely out of sight. I'm moving out of North Carolina Friday, and if we're all lucky you'll never know where I've gone.

    Mal

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2005 - 06:15 am
    I've been described as a tough and noisy woman, a prize fighter, a man-hater, you name it. They call me Battling Bella, Mother Courage, and a Jewish mother with more complaints than Portnoy.

    I began wearing hats as a young lawyer because it helped me to establish my professional identity. Before that, whenever I was at a meeting, someone would ask me to get coffee.


    ~BELLA ABZUG

    Scrawler
    September 7, 2005 - 10:54 am
    I love hats especially big hats from the 1940s or the small hats from the 1930s. I see by our local newspapers that hats are making a come back, but they are not sylish like those I've previously mentioned. Have a great time and see you all soon.

    PS. Has anyone seen the History Channel's deplection of Rome? Very interesting. I think I've enjoyed it more having been with you all in this discussion.

    Malryn (Mal)
    September 7, 2005 - 02:20 pm

    BUBBLE has had some trouble with her wheelchair since she's been in the States. The other day she was talking about buying another one here. Today I called Triangle Aftercare, which is where I rented the wheelchair I am currently using. To my inquiry about exchanging this one for another one the voice at the other end of the line told me Medicare will only pay for one wheelchair. "How much would a new wheelchair cost me?" I asked. "Well," she said, "the one you're using costs $879.00." After I got over the shock I wondered what BUBBLE thinks about such an outrageous price.

    Mal

    Éloïse De Pelteau
    September 7, 2005 - 02:30 pm
    Scrawler, how about this: HAT from the 1940s. It must not have been very warm.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 8, 2005 - 03:22 pm
    Well - I am back, recuperating so to speak, and will get back to Durant. You know all about us from Mal's comments and Dorian's photos.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 8, 2005 - 04:21 pm
    "In each country Christianity took on the qualities of the national temperament.

    "In Ireland it became mystic, sentimental, individualistic, passionate. It adopted the fairies, the poetry, the wild and tender imagination of the Celt.

    "The priests inherited the magic powers of the Druids and the myths of the bards. The tribal organization favored a centrifugal looseness in the structure of the Church -- almost every locality had an independent 'bishop.'

    "More numerous and influential than the bishops and priests were the monks who, in groups seldom numbering more than twelve, formed half-isolated and mostly autonomous monasteries throughout the island, recognizing the pope as head of the Church, but submitting to no external control.

    "The earlier monks lived in separate cells, practicing a somber asceticism and meeting only for prayer. A later generation -- the 'Second Order of Irish Saints' -- diverged from the Egyptian tradition, studied together, learned Greek, copied manuscripts, and established schools for clerics and laity.

    "From the Irish schools in the sixth and seventh centuries a succession of renowned and redoubtable saints passed over into Scotland, England, Gaul, Germany, and Italy to revitalize and educate a darkened Christianity. Wrote a Frank about 850:-'Almost all Ireland comes flocking to our shores with a troop of philosophers.'

    "As German invasions of Gaul and Britain had driven scholars from those lands to Ireland, so now the wave returned, the cebt was paid. Irish missionaries flung themselves upon the victorious pagan Angles, Saxons, Norwegians, and Danes in England and upon the illiterate and half-barbarous Christians of Gaul and Germany, with the Bible in one hand and classic manuscripts in the other. For a time it seemed that the Celts would win back through Christianity the lands they had lost to force.

    "It was in the Dark Ages that the Irish spirit shone with its strongest light."

    As I read history and the current news, don't the Irish always shine their beacon of light throughout all disasters?

    Robby

    tooki
    September 8, 2005 - 04:46 pm
    So glad you're back, Robby. You were having entirely too much fun.

    Here's a site that reviews Christianity's alleged arrival in Ireland in the 1st century. Scroll down for a map of Irish influence in Europe and furthur comments on it.

    Ireland and Christianity

    3kings
    September 8, 2005 - 05:39 pm
    "with the Bible in one hand and classic manuscripts in the other." (Durant)

    What ever else one may say about the Irish, it is clear that in those early years they were more Christian than many of us are today. These days it is more accurate to say "with the bible in one hand, and a sword, (or maybe a depleted uranium shell), in the other."

    By the time of the Crusades, the example of those early monks had been lost by the " Christians ". ++ Trevor

    Justin
    September 8, 2005 - 06:07 pm
    No the Irish do not always shine their beacon of light on all disasters. The draft riots in Manhattan in 1863 is a prime example of the failure of their beacon to shine at all. They objected to being valued by the US government at $300.per man when blacks were selling for $1500 per man. So they strung up to lamp posts and burned every black, man, woman, and child, they found in the city. The army had to pull some New York regiments out of the line as well as organize ambulatory wounded to quell the rioters. Most of the Irish were refugees from the potato famine. Many were relatives of the soldiers who came to quell their behavior. Sorry for the diversion this early in our return. I thought it was an interesting sidelight.

    JoanK
    September 8, 2005 - 07:37 pm
    It seems as if every people and culture has things in their past to be proud of ans also things to be ashamed of. If we start "throwing stones" we'll never stop.

    Justin
    September 8, 2005 - 11:51 pm
    Joan: I'm not sure I understand your thought. There was a worthwhile message in the post on the Irish role in the NY draft riots. It was certainly not to attack the Irish. My mother's sainted Irish ancestors came to these shores in 1830.They lived in Hoboken, a town just across the river from the riots. The message in the riot post was this. Stories about the Irish beacon of light in disasters are generalizations that distort reality. I think it is wise to avoid such generalizations. Robby knows that as well and very often he throws one in just to tickle our fancy.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 9, 2005 - 04:10 am
    "The greatest of these missionaries was St. Columba.

    "We know him well through the biography written (c.679) by Adamman, one of his successors at Iona. Columba was born at Donegal in 521, of royal stock. Like Buddha he was a saint who could have been a king. At school in Moville he showed such devotion that his schoolmaster named him Columbkille -- Column of the Church.

    "From the age of twenty-five he founded a number of churches and monasteries of which the most famous were at Derry, Durrow, and Kella.

    "But he was a fighter as wel as a saint, 'a man of powerful frame and mighty voice.' His hot temper drew him into many quarrels, at last into war with King Diarmuid. A battle was fought in which, we are told, 5000 men were killed.

    "Columba, although victorious, fled from Ireland (563), resolved to convert as many souls as had fallen in that engagement in Cooldrevna. He now founded on the island of Iona, off the west coast of Scotland, one of the most illustrious of medieval monasteries. Thence he and his disciples brought the Gospel to the Hebrides, Scotland, and northern England.

    "And there, after converting thousands of pagans and illuminating the 300 'noble books,' he died in prayer at the altar, in his seventy-eighth year."

    First kill, then convert. As my father used to say: "There's more than one way to skin a cat."

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 9, 2005 - 04:16 am
    Here is a detailed bio of ST. COLUMBA.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 9, 2005 - 04:22 am
    Some interesting info about DERRY IN IRELAND.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 9, 2005 - 04:28 am
    Here are some intriguing facts about IONA.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 9, 2005 - 05:07 am
    Derry and Oak Groves, or, why were oak groves sacred to the Irish? Dense oak groves once covered most of Northern Europe. Apparently the Irish used oak for everything, including eating the acorns. Because it was so necessary to them, oak was considered to be sacred.

    Much like the Native Americans and the buffalo. Remember, they used everything of the animal and gave praises to Father Sky for giving it to them. The earlier-than-Christians Druids must have done the same thing. This has been a short course in Celtic mythology. Here's more.

    "Oak groves were sacred places for the Celtic peoples who once lived over most of Western Europe. 'Oak' place names occur frequently throughout the continent, as well as in Britain and Ireland. This reflects both the widespread nature of the ancient oak forests, and also the important position these trees occupied in the culture and ceremonial of the Celts. Derry was almost certainly one of those Celtic ritual places. The taboos and superstitions about the trees of Derry, which survived down to the sixteenth century, clearly hint at the pre-Christian religious significance of this island hill."

    More Than You Need To Know About Oak Groves and the Irish

    tooki
    September 9, 2005 - 05:22 am
    St. Columba quells the Loc Ness Monster.

    (Down, Tooki, down.)

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 9, 2005 - 05:38 am
    Is this the way RELIGION should be?

    Robby

    tooki
    September 9, 2005 - 10:42 am
    St Columba Quells the Loc Ness Monster

    kiwi lady
    September 9, 2005 - 10:52 am
    Yes Robby! Yes! "by our works shall they know us!"

    My late husband and I were disillusioned. I remember once we wanted to open a disused house owned by our church on church grounds as a drop in centre for local youth. We were refused by the board of elders because the kids might "wreck" the house! We became renegades in the congregation because we continually disputed the way money was being spent. Once we stood up and objected to a large amount of money being spent on covering the hymnals because they were tatty looking rather than being spent on good works.

    I don't think my idea of Christianity would be any more acceptable in most of the mainstream churches than they were then. Maybe the Quakers are more my style. They are doing work everywhere with little or no fanfare. They really do love their enemies. They work in areas of conflict all over the world with everybody. They do not judge. They work for peace and against injustice. They do their work at grass roots level. My great grandmother was a Quaker.

    Carolyn

    Justin
    September 9, 2005 - 12:51 pm
    Yes, Robby, Yes. Unfortunately, we see so little of this touted "Christian Charity" that when these people finally do undertake a little charity it stands out. Islam has been criticised for the same tight traits but I understand Iran and other Islamic states have contributed to the relief of Louisianans.

    Christians and Muslims have been so frightened, personally, that they focus on their own salvation and ignore the sugestion of Mohammad and Matthew to care for the least of us.

    tooki
    September 10, 2005 - 12:14 pm
    While we await Robby's arrival, perhaps THIS article, which ties in with the previous one might be of interest.

    Justin
    September 10, 2005 - 01:44 pm
    Very timely article,Tooki.Assigning blame to God for disasters is as ridiculous as giving God credit for the benefits of technology. Blaming or crediting God for anything natural or man made eliminates human curiosity about the causes of events and so retards progress in human knowledge. Concepts such as intelligent design are dangerous and should be debunked quickly.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 10, 2005 - 03:06 pm
    "Tertullian mentions Christians in Britain in 208.

    "Bede speaks of St. Alban as dying in the persecution by Diocletian.

    "British bishops attended the Council of Sardica (347).

    "Germanus, Bishop of Anxerre, went to Britain in 429 to suppress the Palagian heresy. William of Malmesbury avers that the Bishop, presumably on a later visit, routed an army of Saxons by having his British converts shout 'Hallelujah!' at them.

    "From this vigorous condition British Christianity pined and almost died in the Anglo-Saxon invasions. We hear nothing of it again until, at the end of the sixth century, the disciples of Columba entered Northumberland and Augustine, with seven other monks, reached England from Rome.

    "Christianity came to Germany as the gift of Irish and English monks.

    "In 690 the Northumnbrian monk Willibrord, who had been educated in Ireland, crossed the North Sea with twelve adventurous aides, fixed his episcopal seat at Utrecht and labored for forty years to convert the Frisians.

    "But these realistic lowlanders saw in Willibrord the hand of his protector Pepin, the Young, and feared that their conversion would subject them to the Franks. Moreover they were not pleased to be told that all their unbaptized forebears were in hell. A Frisian king, having learnd this as he stood on the brink of baptism, turned away, saying that he preferred to spend eternity with his ancestors."

    Your comments, please?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 10, 2005 - 03:12 pm
    MESSAGE from Mal in PA

    Hi Everybody,

    I am safe and sound in PA afer along trip with plane delayed and so forth. We arrived at about 10:30pm, after driving up, up, up! from Newark. It's mountain country here.

    On arrival, Chris assembled a bed frame for the king size spring and mattress to raise to a height convenient for me and got the bathroom fixed up with grab bars and various other things that make it more acceptable.

    Then I fell into bed and got lost in the wall to wall king sized bed.

    Solomon bear, All Ready, and Muddy Wadders plus their friends Neddy and Teddy, a bunny and a little bear I brought found me under the covers and comforted me through the night.

    This room is more of a rusty red than burgundy. It's very similar to a color I used in my paintings. This morning I see an expanse of grass and a windbreak of pine trees out back. The hall window I can see through the door is in the front of the house and overlooks the street, which is indeed a hillside, as its name suggests.

    This room is a lot bigger than I had been told and it's full of Serena's half sister Lizzie's furniture and belongings. Lizzie is off at school in Staten Island. I can't unpack anything until we somehow make room.

    Serena's mother Carole's bathroom adjoins this room and her bedroom is beyond that. There is a stairway near her suite that leads to the kitchen.

    Leah just brought my breakfast in: an apple, cut up in little pieces for me. She's a darling little girl, all dressed up in her leotard for her gymnastics class this morning. Baby Donald, aged 18 months, is a giant of a boy with big blue eyes and blonde hair, unlike his dark haired, dark eyed sister. I can see why his mother is so thin-- from lifting him. Leah gave me all kinds of little presents she had made. They liked the stuffed animals I gave them and the presents from Bubble.

    My granddaughter Megan is coming here later from Connecticut. Tomorrow, Chris and I will go to the outlet mall for my shoes.

    This is a very quiet country location and there are black bears in them thar woods, I am told. It surely isn't North Carolina.

    I'll post again soon,

    Mal

    Justin
    September 10, 2005 - 06:41 pm
    While it is certainly true that Tertullian mentions Christians in Britain in 208CE the advent of Christianity in Britain does not occur until the early seventh century. Columba comes to Northumberland and Augustine comes to Kent. Augustine manages with the help of King Ethelbert's wife to convert him to Christianity. Augustine, with Ethelbert's help sets himself up as Bishop of Canterbury. He starts out with a small church, the ruins of which are visible today in the presense of a couple of stones piled upon one another.

    By the the end of the first quarter of the century Oswald King of Northumberland as given Paulinus, an Italian monk, the island of Lindesfarne.They establish a monastery on the island and it this settlement that is first attacked and wiped out by the vikings in a later century.

    Bede writes about this period in his eclesiastical history. So many monasteries were built and so many able bodied men enclosed in them that man power for other activities was at a premium. Two cnturies later when the Vikings came the military response was weak and ineffective.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 11, 2005 - 06:18 am
    "The final triumph of the faith in Europe was the conversion of the Slavs.

    "In 861 Prince Rostislav of Moravia, noting the entrance into his realm of a Latin Christianity that ignored the vernacular in its liturgy, applied to Byzantium for missionaries who would preach and pray in the vulgar tongue. The emnperor sent him two brothers, Methodius and Cyril, who, having been reared in Salonika, spoke Slavonic with ease.

    "They were welcomed but found that the Slavs had as yet no alphabet to fully express their language in writing. The few Slavs who wrote used Greek and Latin characters to represent their speech. Cyril thereupon invented the Slavonic alphabet and script by adopting the Greek alphabet with the values that Greek usage had given it by the ninth century -- B sounded as V, H as I (English E), Chi as the Scotch ch and he devised original letters for Slavonic sounds not expressible by Greek characters.

    "With this alphabet Cyril translated into Slavonic the Septuagint Greek version of the Old Testament and the Greek liturgical texts, thereby inaugurating a new written language and a new literature.

    "A struggle now ensued between Greek and Latin Christianity to see which should capture the Slavs.

    "Pope Nicholas I invited Cyril and Methodius to Rome where Cyril took monastic vows, fell ill, and died (869). Methodius returned to Moravia as an archbishop consecreated by the Pope.

    "Pope John VIII allowed the use of the Slavonic liturgy. Stephen V forbade it.

    "Moravia, Bohemia, and Slovakia (these constituting the Czechoslovakia of today), and later Hungary and Poland, were won to the Latin Church and rite. While Bulgaria, Serbia, and Russia accepted the Slavonic liturgy and alphabet, gave their allegiance to the Greek Church and took their culture from Byzantium.

    "Political calculations influenced these religious transformations.

    "The conversion of the Germans aimed to incorporate them firmly into the realm of the Franks. King Harald Bluetooth imposed Christianity upon Denmark (974) as part of the price that the Emperor Otto II demanded for peace. Boris of Bulgaria, after flirting with the papacy, went over to the Greek Church (864) to win protection aganst an expanding Grmany. Vladimir I made Russia Christian (988) to win the hand of Anna, sister of the Greek Emperor Basil II and to obtain part of the Crimea as her dowry.

    "For two centuries the Russian Church acknowledged the patriarch of Constantinople. In the thirteenth century it declared its independence. After the fall of the Eastern empire (1453) the Russian Church became the dominant factor in the Greek Orthodox world."

    It seems that in Europe religion and politics are always intertwined. The First Amendment of the American constitution apparently split that and American schoolchildren do very little studying about Europe.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 11, 2005 - 10:45 am
    St. Augustine of Canterbury (d. 604) and St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430). Am I only one who was hazy?

    When Pope Gregory sent St. Augustine and other monks to Britain in 597 it marked the early beginning of the Church’s “papal primacy.” Papal primacy, or as someone called it, the urge toward a “plentitude of power,” was much like a land grab. Monasteries required land to build on and land to farm; churches required money and land. Infant Europe, amid the chaos of the remnants of the Roman Empire wasting away, needed some administrative order. So began the Church’s baby steps toward its conflicts with kings, queens, knights and other assorted power brokers of the middle ages. One might say Infant Europe and The Baby Church grew up together. As Robby noted, they are intertwined, at least until the French revolution.

    Speaking of the two St. Augustines, the Church from this early date accepted the philosophy propounded by the earlier St. Augustine in his various writings. Augustinianism meant the state received sanction only insofar as it furthered the ends of the City of God. Ergo, the state was the servant of the church.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 11, 2005 - 10:51 am
    Here are details about the SLAVS with many interconnecting links.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 11, 2005 - 10:58 am
    Here is a fascinating article about the CYRILLIC ALPHABET.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 11, 2005 - 11:12 am
    Here is the current news in the SLAVIC WORLD.

    Robby

    Traude S
    September 11, 2005 - 02:34 pm
    The "Czechoslovakia of today" to which Durant referred in the last segment is no more.

    Czechoslovakia was one of the artificial constructs created/fashioned by the Allied leaders out of the remnants of the fallen Austro-Hungarian Empire after World War I. (Yugoslavia was another.) The Czechs and the Slovaks never even shared the same language (!)

    In 1993, seventy-four years after the Treaty of Versailles (1919) had sealed their destinies, they separated peacefully and are now two autonomous nations, the Czech Republic and Slovakia.

    Justin
    September 11, 2005 - 02:36 pm
    Augustine of Canterbury was, as I recall, an Italian Benedictine who was residing at Monte Casino when Gregory called him to spread the faith in Kent. He and Ethelbert's wife converted Ethelbert and the whole of Kent to Catholicism. He was rewarded with a pallium and an archbishopric for Canterbury.

    Several centuries earlier, in fact, only a short time after Constantine let loose upon the world this thing called Christianity, another earlier Augustine, called Aurelius Augustinus, given to wonderful sexual adventures,he returned to his home in Africa to become a priest.He had been educated in Milan. He spoke well and wrote honestly about his interior strains without his mistress when as the new Archbishop of Hippo.He wrote over 200 books in his lifetime and died as the Vandals appeared at the gates of Hippo. Hippo is just below Algeria and in Roman times it was a major link in the Roman chain that bound Africa to the Roman world.

    Matin Luther a rebel of a later generation, lots later in fact, was an Augustinian named for the Hippo archbishop.

    Traude S
    September 11, 2005 - 02:48 pm
    JUSTIN, we posted about the same time.
    I don't always keep up with the learned discourse, which is wonderfully inspiring --- always.

    This time I wanted to put in the word about Czechoslovakia before we get re-immersed in the tumult that is European history.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 11, 2005 - 03:54 pm
    This MAP shows the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and the regions of Bohemia and Moravia.

    Robby

    Fifi le Beau
    September 11, 2005 - 07:08 pm
    In Robby's post #979 he shares a link to details about the Slavs from the Wikipedia encyclopedia. Before I read the article I noticed in the heading "The neutrality of this article is disputed". I went to that link after I had read Robby's link and everything connected to this link seems in dispute by somebody.

    There are disputes on language, origins, territorial claims, ethnicity, religious affiliation, and the list is long and confusing after reading over old arguments that flared when the countries began to break apart and separate. Not being privy to their ethnic arguments, that was beneath the surface for years, means I don't know who or what to believe. Is it important? It seems it is, enough to kill over according to Robby's latest link on what is happening today.

    The Wikipedia encyclopedia puts articles on the website, and also allows them to be edited by users. It has been used as a propaganda organ by some groups, and although I check their information, I no longer use them as a source. When they use 'then' for 'than' in a sentence, I am suspicious.

    In reading through the disputes one dissenter asks, "How much is science and how much is politics and propaganda" on the question of who is a Slav. Another disputes the religious make up of the Czech Republic. He quotes the CIA factbook that says most Czechs are non religious and usually describe themselves as 'Atheists'. He gives the stats as 40% atheist, 39% Catholic, and balance none or other.

    Here is the link to "The neutrality of this article is disputed."

    Who is a Slav

    Fifi

    Justin
    September 11, 2005 - 09:58 pm
    I'm with you FIfi. Any one who posts substituting then for than or vice versa should be ignored. Those who substitute "that for who or whom" cause similar concern in me.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2005 - 02:28 am
    The Nadir of the Papacy

    867-1049

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2005 - 02:38 am
    "Reform reached Rome last of all.

    "The populace of the city had always been unmanageable, even when the Imperial eagle had weielded legion in its claws. Now the pontiffs, armed only with a weak militia, the majesty of their office and the terror of their creed, found themselves the prisoners of a jealous aristocracy and of a citizenry whose piety suffered from nearness to Peter's throne.

    "The Romans were too proud to be impressed by kings and too familiar to be awed by popes. They saw in the Vicar of Christ men subject like themselves to sickness, error, sin and defeat. They came to view the papacy not as a fortress of order and a tower of salvation but as a collection agency whereby the pence of Enrope might provide the dole of Rome.

    "By the tradition of the Church no pope could be elected without the consent of the Roman clergy, nobles, and populace. The rulers of Spoleto, Benevento, Naples and Tuscany and the aristocracy of Rome divided into factions as of old. Whichever factors prevailed in the city intrigued to choose and sway the pope.

    "Between them they dragged the papacy, in the tenth century, to the lowest level in its history."

    Your comments, please, about the papacy then and the papacy now?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2005 - 02:49 am
    According to the author of this ARTICLE, "the power of the papacy lies in moral persuasion capable of being translated into political effectiveness." Do you agree?

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2005 - 02:56 am
    Do conflicts between long dead popes and emperors have major consequences for the history of Western culture? This ARTICLE speaks to that.

    Robby

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 12, 2005 - 03:06 am
    The agenda of POPE BENEDICT XVI.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 12, 2005 - 07:58 am
    Durant is still in the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries, the middle middle ages, and the papacy is in sad shape: besieged by rotten Roman aristocrats, not yet possessing a strong military power, and surrounded, in Rome, by a populace grown contemptuous by familiarity.

    Still, comparisons with the 21st century might be made. The papacy is, if not besieged, at least surrounded by increasingly secular governments. It is militarily powerless, and its adherents and believers largely give only lip service to Catholic dogmas.

    My Catholic friends tell me they pick and choose amongst the dogmas. My child age-bearing, church going, choir singing, practicing Catholic neighbor told me, “Get a grip, Tookie. Why would I accept the Church’s rules on child bearing? What do those celibate men know?” She also frequently tells me, “We’ll pray for you.”

    No, things don’t look too good for the papacy. It needs a whole new crew of believers to pep things up. Where are all the potential new Catholics?

    Justin
    September 12, 2005 - 01:05 pm
    Tooki: The new believers are in Africa. It's a short step from witch doctor to priest. The colorful trappings of the witch doctor who speaks in strange tongue may be found in the vestments of the priest during the sacrifice of the Mass. The old ways are not lost for the tribal african they are just converted to new forms. Sacrifice is symbolic and the old joke about human cook pots is no longer appropriate. Bubble can probably tell us about any remaining tribes that practice sacrifice.

    Justin
    September 12, 2005 - 02:00 pm
    George Weigel's article on the Papacy is, in my judgement, an out standing piece of work. It connects the papacy to the real world and while not ignoring failures like the Nazi problem it clearly points to effective political controls through moral persuasion that have influenced worthy historical outcomes. I recommend it to one and all. It's long but well done.

    3kings
    September 12, 2005 - 10:10 pm
    I think we should hesitate to judge the truth of an article by whether the writer uses correct grammar. In the case of the Slavs for instance, it is likely that the contributor is using English as a second language.

    As I, for one, could not write a single sentence in Russian, Polish etc., I am always ready to cut a little slack to such folk, as they attempt to use English. After all I am very aware that my own use of English grammar is not always accurate.

    It is illuminating, and chastening to find that some here mistrust my words on the ground that my grammar or spelling is not in their opinion, up to scratch. ( tongue firmly in cheek)++ Trevor

    Justin
    September 12, 2005 - 11:16 pm
    Trevor: Your words and grammar have always been clear to me. Folks "down under" may have a few colloquialisms we northerners are not familiar with but I find their use of language in general to be impeccable.

    robert b. iadeluca
    September 13, 2005 - 03:25 am
    "In 878 Duke Lambert of Spoleto entered Rome with his army, seized Pope John VIII and tried to starve him into favoring Carloman for the Imperial throne.

    "In 897 Pope Stephen VI had the corpse of Pope Formosus (891-6) exhumed, dressed it in purple robes and tried before an ecclesiastic council on the charge of violating certain Church laws. The corpse was condemned, stripped, mutilated, and plunged into the Tiber.

    "In the same year a political revolution in Rome overthrew Stephen who was strangled in jail.

    "For several years thereafter the papal chair was filled by bribery, murder, or the favor of women of high rank and low morality.

    "For half a century the family of Theophylact, a chief official of the papal palace made and unmade popes at will. His daughter Marozia secured the election of her lover as Pope Sergius III (904-11). His wife, Theodora, procured the election of Pope John X (914-28).

    "John has been accused of being Theodora's paramour but on inadequate evidence. Certainly he was an excellent secular leader for it was he who organized the coalition that in 916 repulsed the Saracens from Rome.

    "Marozia, after having enjoyed a succession of lovers, married Guido, Duke of tuscany. They conspired to unseat John. They had his brother Peter killed before his face. The Pope was thrown into prison and died there a few months later from causes unknown.

    "In 931 Marozia raised to the papacy John XI (931-5) commonly reputed to be her bastard son by Sergius III.

    "In 932 her son Alberic imprisoned John in the Castle of Sant' Angelo but allowed him to exercise from jail the spiritual functions of the papacy.

    "For twenty-two years Alberic ruled Rome as the dictatorial head of a 'Roman Republic.' At his death he bequeathed his power to his son Octavian and made the clergy and people promise to choose Octavian pope when Agapetus II should die. It was done as he ordered.

    "In 955Marozia's grandson became John XII and distinguished his pontificate by orgies of debauchery in the Lateran palace."

    When men newly elected to the papacy choose their papal names, I wonder if they read carefully the histories of the popes whose names they are copying.

    I also wonder if many Roman Catholics know about some of the history we are reading about today.

    Robby

    tooki
    September 13, 2005 - 05:57 am
    Robby, a quick answer to the question of what Roman Catholics know (and when did they know it.) Last evening, a lovely early autumn warmth still around on my porch, I shared wine and crackers with my Catholic neighbors. She of the, "Tookie, get a grip," comment. I kept them enthralled for some time with tales gleaned from the recent pages of Durant. I was delighted because I rarely get to pontificate so much. (Except here!)

    jane
    September 13, 2005 - 06:59 am
    This discussion has reached the 1000 post mark and so it's time to continue in a new place.

    Hang on a minute, and I'll get it opened and a link posted here:

    jane
    September 13, 2005 - 07:01 am
    SOC will continue here:

    ---Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 8 ~ Nonfiction