Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 9 ~ Nonfiction
jane
November 21, 2005 - 07:27 am
  
"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed? Share your thoughts with us!

Volume Four (The Age of Faith)

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."


FREDERICK II

The Excommunicate Crusader
The Wonder of the World
Empire vs Papacy

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

This volume surveys the medieval achievements and modern significance of Christian, Islamic, and Judaic life and culture. It includes the dramatic stories of St. Augustine, Hypatia, Justinian, Mohammed, Harun al-Rashid, Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Saladin, Maimonides, St. Francis, St. Thomas Aquinas, Roger Bacon, and many others, all in the perspective of integrated history. The greatest love stories in literaure -- of Heloise and Abelard, of Dante and Beatrice -- are here retold with enthralling scholarship.

The Age of Faith covers the economy, politics, law, government, religion, morals, manners, education, literature, science, philosophy, and art of the Christians, Moslems, and Jews during an epoch that saw vital contests among the three great religions and between the religious and the secular view of human life. All the romance, poverty, splendor, piety and immorality, feudalism and monasticism, heresies and inquisitions, cathedrals and universities, troubadours and minnesingers of a picturesque millennium are gathered into one fascinating narrative.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.

This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:Robby Iadeluca

Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 1 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 2 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 3 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 4 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 5 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 6 | Story of Civilization, Vol.IV, Part 7 | Story of Civilization, Vol. IV, Part 8
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jane
November 21, 2005 - 07:29 am
Remember to subscribe!

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 24, 2005 - 08:32 am
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS ON SENIORNET


Éloïse

robert b. iadeluca
November 24, 2005 - 08:48 am
Sorry, Jane. We don't have lulls in SofC.

Robby

Rich7
November 24, 2005 - 09:41 am
Robby,

I was going to say the same thing.

What lull?

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
November 24, 2005 - 09:55 am
"Other Church Fathers had verged upon communism.

"Said Clement of Alexandria:-'The use of all that is in the world ought to be common to all men. But by injustice one man has called this his own, another that. So has come division among men.'

"Jerome held all profit unjust. Augustine considered all 'business' evil, as 'turning men from seeking true rest, which is God.'

"Pope Leo I had rejected these extreme doctrines but the mood of the Church continued unsympathetic to commerce, suspicious of all speculation and profit, hostile to all 'engrossing,' 'forestalling,' and 'usury' -- by which last term the Middle Ages meant any interest charge whatever.

"Said Ambrose:-'Usury is whatever is added to the capital' and Gratian embodied this blunt definition in the canon law of the Church.

"The councils of Nicaea (325), Orleans (538), Macon (585), and Clichy (626) had forbidden the clergy to lend money for gain.

"The capitularies of Charlesmagne for 789 and the Church councils of the ninth century, extended the prohibition to laymen. The revival of Roman law in the twelfth century emboldened Irnerius and the 'glossators' of Bologna to defend interest and they were able to quote Justinian's Code in its behalf.

"But the Third Council of the Lateran (1179) renewed the prohibition and decreed 'that manifest usurers shall not be admitted to communion, nor, if they die in sin, to Christian burial. No priest shall accept their alms.

"Innocent III must have taken a more lenient view. In 1206 he advised that in certain cases a dowry 'should be committed to some merchant' so that an income might be derived frm it 'by honest gain.'

"Gregory IX, however, returned to the conception of usury as any receipt of any profit on a loan. This remained the law of the Roman Church until 1917."

Comments, please?

Robby

Rich7
November 24, 2005 - 10:00 am
Bubble, Liked your Portofino link. How about we put you in charge of organizing a Portofino, Italy bash?

As for laws against credit lending, they were passed by individuals and institutions with a poor grasp of economics. Credit is one of the principal fuels of the world economy. There are abuses, as there are whenever money is involved, but healthy, growing economies require the judicious(sp?) use of credit.

Rich

Bubble
November 24, 2005 - 12:35 pm
Rich, you would need to lend me a big lump of Euros to do that... How about it?

Justin
November 24, 2005 - 02:08 pm
The Church prohibition of a price charged for the use of money is a principal cause of the darkness that pervaded this period of history. Had they taken a more honest approach we might have reached a more advanced level of civilization much earlier. Why do I say "honest"? The Church on the one hand took a piece of the action for the use of its money and on the other hand forbade interest charges.

Justin
November 24, 2005 - 02:15 pm
Those Church Fathers who advocated Communism were on the right track, they at least grasped one of the messages of the founder. Everyone else seems to have misunderstood him or failed to grasp his messages.

Justin
November 24, 2005 - 02:19 pm
In spite of the war, taxes, clerical abuse, and scurilous politicians, we have much to be thankful for today. We have each other to commune with and share our thoughts. We are not alone.

robert b. iadeluca
November 24, 2005 - 06:04 pm
Would any of you here be interested in the formation of a new group discussing Darwin's "Origin of Species," and if so would you continue participating in this discussion at the same time?

Robby

Malryn
November 24, 2005 - 06:23 pm

I would, ROBBY. Put me down for both.

Mal

Hats
November 25, 2005 - 05:55 am
Jerome and Augustine did not believe in making a profit or having businesses. Maybe I am misinterpreting their philosophies. Perhaps they meant "some" businesses are evil and "some" ways of making a profit are wrong. What exactly did Jerome and Augustine mean?

Part of America's dream is the ability to own a small business and profit from it. My father owned a tailor shop. His tailor shop fed and clothed our family.

kiwi lady
November 25, 2005 - 07:02 am
Its interesting that small businesses here have consistently been found to pay better wages than the big corporations. They are also the biggest employers in our small country. The big corporations however make the largest profits even looking at both types of business in proportion. I think small businesses are often more ethical.

Rich7
November 25, 2005 - 08:52 am
Bubble, I can't lend you the money for the Portofino Project because lending is forbidden by my religion...I'm a devout Cheapskate.

Sorry.

Rich

Rich7
November 25, 2005 - 09:00 am
General Motors is in trouble. They will be laying off another 30,000 people over the next two years. The Japanese auto maker Toyota may pass General Motors and become the world's #1 automaker in 2006.

George Will put it very succinctly, recently, when he said that General Motors will not be healthy again until they get out of the welfare business and get back into the business of building automobiles.

Rich

kiwi lady
November 25, 2005 - 10:32 am
Rich the problem is not the way things are done internally by GM because the Japanese have the amongst the highest wages in the world and good benefits. The real reason is people do not want to buy the cars any more. With fuel costs as they are maybe GM needs to rethink their design size and fuel consumption of their cars.

Carolyn

Rich7
November 25, 2005 - 10:57 am
Kiwi,

I agree with you about GM continuing to build cars that fewer people want. They insist on manufacturing huge SUV's even though the market for such vehicles is declining. Toyota builds a hybrid (gasoline + electric) that is six months backordered, demand is so high.

With all the money GM spends on market research, you'd think that they would have seen that coming. I have always thought that the US auto industry was slow to react to the market. For many years they have had their way and have told the public "We'll build what we want, and you'll buy it. Where else do you have to go?" Now Toyota has given car shoppers a viable alternative.

As for "welfare" costs, GM carries what they call a $1600 per car legacy cost to pay for their union retiree pension and health benefits. All GM plants in the US are union, most, if not all, Toyota plants in the US are non-union. Toyota is paying their employees well in order to keep the unions out of their operations in the US, however Toyota health and retirement benefits are not as "rich" as what the unions have extracted from GM.

GM, however, still remains shortsighted. Last year, GM spent $13.7 billion on capital projects and R & D. Toyota spent $15.3 billion.

Rich

MeriJo
November 25, 2005 - 11:04 am
Jerome and Augustine did a lot of advising, but the dynamics of society was changing, and the concept of business for profit was very new. Usury was feared, and usury is wrong.

In looking at this Story of Civilization I see a gradual evolution of society - an acceptance of certain values and a rejection of others - all coming as time passed and a thirst for knowledge increased.

Traude S
November 25, 2005 - 12:21 pm
In light of and in comparison with the relatively recent stupendous knowledge about DNA, it may well be worth while to explore Darwin's 1859 seminal work.

After several decades I still vividly recall the methodical, painstakingly detailed, rigorous biology instruction; the tests and the term papers -- not only about Darwin but also about Swede Carl von Linné aka Carolus Linnaeus et alii = and others - to the point of saturation.

Forgive me, but at this point in my life I am not inclined to revisit and recapitulate something I learned long ago that might, it turns out, be open to questions because of new findings.

Justin
November 25, 2005 - 01:01 pm
Bubble: Thank you for providing 990 covering the Arena Chapel. I encourage one and all the view these sites which depict the work of Giotto, the great early 14th century painter. The frescoes have been cleaned recently and viewing has been restricted severely on site to avoid damage. This chapel is one the treasures to come out of Medievalism. The period is called proto-renaisance.

Over 900 square feet of wall has been covered with bible stories. The depictions are one step away from the two dimensional "up the page" representations so typical of this period. In my judgement, Giotto is a greater artist than Michelangelo. He is certainly more revolutionary in style.

The story of the Arena Chapel is also very interesting for it depicts the response of the wool merchant to the prohibitions of the church about profit and usury.

Justin
November 25, 2005 - 03:42 pm
Traude: I agree with you about Darwin. If you've read the log of the voyage of the Beagle and Darwin's Origin of Species as well as played with the concept in biology you have grasped much of the theory.

What might be more interesting is an exploration of the challenges to the Darwinian. I am not talking about the nonsense concepts but rather the serious challenges. Lynn Margulis at U. Mass. introduced endosymbiosis as an additional method of advancing evolution. There are other challenges around that may be worthy of review.

robert b. iadeluca
November 25, 2005 - 04:21 pm
"What might be more interesting is an exploration of the challenges to the Darwinian."

That's undoubtedly what we would be doing in the process of reading the book. There are many who have not read the book and would not know what to challenge.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 25, 2005 - 04:52 pm
"The wits of men found many subterfuges from the law.

"A borrower would sell land cheap to the lender, leave him the usufruct as interest, and later repurchase the land.

"Or the landowner sold to the lender some or all of the annnual rents or revenues of his land. If, for example, A sold to B for $100 the rents of a parcel yielding $10,000 a year, B was in effect lending A $100 at ten per cent.

"Many monasteries invested their funds by buying such 'rent charges' -- above all in Germany where the word for interest, Zins, grew out of the medieval Latin for rents, census.

"Towns borrowed money by deeding to the lender a share in their revenues. Individuals and institutions, including monasteries, lent money in return for secret gifts or fictitious sales.

"Pope Alexander III complained in 1163 that 'many of the clergy' (chiefly monastic) 'while they shrink from common usury as from a thing too plainly condemned, do notwithstanding lend money to others who are in need, take their possessions in pledge, and receive the fruits therefrom accruing beyond the principal lent.

"Some borrowers pledged themselves to pay 'damages' increasing for every day or month of delay in repaying a loan. The date of payment was placed so early as to make such concealed interest inevitable. On this basis the Cahorsians lent money to certain monasteries on terms equivalent to sixty per cent per year.

"Many banking firms openly lent at interest and claimed immunity on the theory that the law applied only to individuals. The cities of Italy made no excuses for paying interest on their government bonds.

"In 1208 Innocent III remarked that if all usurers were excluded from the Church as canon law demanded, all churches mmight as well be closed.

"The Church reluctantly adjusted herself to realities.

"St. Thomas Aquinas, about 1250, courageously formulated a new ecclesiastical doctrine of interest:-the investor in a business enterprise might legitimately share in the gain if he actually shared in the risk or the loss. Loss was interpreted to include any delay in the repayment of the loan beyond a stipulated date.

"St. Boniventura and Pope Innocent IV accepted the principle and widened it to legitimize a payment made to a lender in return for the temporary loss of the use of his capital. Some fifteenth-century canonists admitted the right of states to issue interest-bearing bonds."

I had no idea that the Church was so involved in money transactions.

Robby

kiwi lady
November 25, 2005 - 05:35 pm
Robby I think they still are! Many of the modern fundamentalist churches run businesses on the side. It has upset me and turned me off as they get plenty in the plate without resorting to business!

Rich7
November 25, 2005 - 06:05 pm
Justin,

Your mention of Lynn Margulis of the University of Massachusetts was driving me crazy! I had seen that name before in a different context, but I couldn't remember where.

Google got the answer for me. She was married to the late astronomer and science popularist Carl Sagan! Lynn has picked up Sagan's banner, and along with her daughter Dorion Sagan, is now writing popular books on evolution, ostensibly picking up where Darwin left off.

Amoung other things, she holds that Darwin could not explain how new species were created, but she can.

Rich

Fifi le Beau
November 25, 2005 - 08:45 pm
Avoid as you would the plague a clergyman who is also a man of business........St. Jerome

Fifi

Justin
November 25, 2005 - 10:52 pm
There is so much in the catalogue on Darwin it may be difficult to settle on a text. There is the Log of the Beagle, Darwin's own publication, the Origin of Species, The autobigraphy, Appelman's Critical essays by Darwin, Jay Gould's work on the period since Darwin, and Gert Himmelfarb's Darwinian Revolution. There is also a novel by Stone called Origins. That barely scratches the surface.

Do you have a specific work in mind, Robby? Himmelfarb's study might appeal to Traude because it is a study of the impact on the intellectual climate of the 19th century.

Bubble
November 26, 2005 - 02:30 am
Church is a rich power to be taken into account everywhere. Much of the wealth is not public knowledge.

Thanks for that list Justin. I have read the Darwin texts and his Origin of Species more than once because of some debates long ago. I never knew about Stone's book, it is now tantalizing.

I am more than interested, but no free time for any new venture until January. My end of years are always hectic, personally and also at work.

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 02:55 am
"Church is a rich power to be taken into account everywhere. Much of the wealth is not public knowledge."

Bubble, I have always heard of the power and wealth of the church. I think it is one of those deep, dark secrets we might feel afraid to confront. A part of the human psyche wants to see the churchly powers as humble, poor and always in prayer, enjoying heavenly pleasures but not earthly pleasures.

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 02:59 am
I am continuing to enjoy this discussion. All of your comments and the comments of the other posters are enough to keep me busy for a long while. There is no way I can think of Origin of the Species at this time. I have a pile of books falling over beside my bed too, a monstrous pile. I am also enjoying Seniornet archives. Reading the posts along with the book I missed at the time.

Robby, you are a wonderful and intelligent host. Your discussion of Origin of the Species will just make another successful discussion.

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 03:02 am
I love your comment in post #25.

Bubble
November 26, 2005 - 03:25 am
Hey Hats, I am doing the same re archives discussions on books. I read Life of Pi recently and Secret of the Bees, Da Vinci code and Red Tent. The discussions multiply the enjoyment.

Robby, two not yet seniornetters here sound interested by Darwin.

Rich, is C.Sagan's wife also writing SF?

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 03:37 am
Bubble, it's so much fun! I am doing Eleanor Roosevelt and her doctor friend. Also, the history of railroads. I can't wait to do Life of Pi.

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 04:58 am
Bubble:-We are always interested in "not yet SeniorNetters." Are they officially saying "yes" and can we have their names?

And to make life easier for me, the entire text of "Origin of Species" is on the Internet. I am not interested in pulling out specific excerpts but in examining the entire book. Obviously we would move faster in some sections than others based on what links were available to help us plus the interest of the participants.

The discussion would begin after the first of the year.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 05:11 am
The Guilds

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 05:24 am
"In ancient Rome there were countless collegia, scholae, sodalitates, artes -- associations of artisans, merchants, contractcors, political clubs, secret fraternities, religious brotherhoods. Did any of these survive to beget the medieval guilds?

"Two letters of Gregory I refer to a corporation of soap makers at Naples and to another of bakers at Otranto.

"In the law code of the Lombard King Rotharis we read of magistri Comacini -- apparently master masons from Como, who speak of one another as collegantes -- colleagues of the same collegium.

"Associations of transport workers are mentioned in seventh century Rome and in tenth century Worms.

"The ancient guilds continued in the Byzantine Empire. In Ravena we find references to many scholae or economic associations -- in the sixth century to bakers -- in the ninth to notaries and merchants -- in the tenth to fishermen -- in the eleventh victualers. We hear of artisan ministeria in ninth century Venice and of a gardeners' schola in eleventh century Rome.

"Doubtless most of the ancient guilds in the West succumbed to the barbarian invasions and the resulting reruralization and poverty. But some seem to have survived in Lombardy.

"When commerce and industry recovered in the eleventh century the conditions that had begotten the collegia regenerated the guilds."

I am guessing here that we are talking about the origins of what we now call unions.

Robby

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 06:54 am
Psychology is your life work right??? Robby, have you ever thought of or maybe giving here at Seniornet a discussion about Sigmund Freud and other psychologists and their philosophies and ideas?

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 06:59 am
Maybe so, Hats, as soon as we complete Origin of Species and seven more volumes of Story of Civilization.

Robby

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 07:02 am
I am glad we are not nearly finished with Story of Civilization. I am learning so much and learning it with interesting people.

Malryn
November 26, 2005 - 07:24 am

Don't you think we could learn something even if we've "been there and done that" before, to use what I think is a very limiting expression?

I studied much of what's in the Story of Civilization sixty years ago, but Will and Ariel Durant's statement of history and views have opened my eyes in a way they've not been opened before. Of course, my eyes and views were not then what they are now, nor was my brain as developed as it is now. In ways, I'm a different person looking at the same things and drawing different conclusions about life, the world and my place in it because of these books and this discussion.

I think Darwin's Origin of the Species is the perfect accompaniment to our discussion of S of C. An in-depth discussion about why Darwin's findings have been such a threat to Faith would teach me a lot, as would discussing Darwin's studies of natural selection and animal behavior -- especially as they relate to what went on in the past with homo sapiens and what's happening now.

Mal

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 07:40 am
Mal,

That's true. No matter how familiar, we come with new eyes to a subject. As time passes our opinions change. As we age and meet new experiences our ideas tend to change too, I think.

I hope you are enjoying your new surroundings up in Pa.

w

Rich7
November 26, 2005 - 07:55 am
Bubble,

To answer your question, I did not know if biologist Lynn Margulis wrote any Science Fiction. So back I went to Google. I could not find any science fiction that she has written, but her earth-as-an-organism theory for the creation of new species, has inspired some Science Fiction writers to go off on their own creative tangents.

Not that there is anything wrong with a scientist writing science fiction. One of my favorite writers, the late Dr. Isaac Asimov was a professor of biochemistry at Boston University. He wrote dozens of wonderful science fiction books and short stories, as well as scholarly works in his own field of biochemistry.

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 26, 2005 - 08:27 am
I loved Irving Stone's historical novels because they give life to history and even if Durant is extremely interesting most of the time, it becomes boring after a long time on it. I have not read Irving Stone's "Origins". I would have to see how it goes before committing myself to such scientific work as that. Right now I don't know, it's better than before when I thought it was not for me.

Robby, Would you post excerpts like you do for S of C or would you leave it up to us to follow with the online text? I know it's a lot of work for you to post S of C every day, but it is nice to discuss page by page like this.

Éloïse

Bubble
November 26, 2005 - 10:47 am
Rich, C. Sagan did write a novel'Contact' if I remember right. I'd love to scan through one or more by Margulis, if I can find them at the American School maybe...

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 10:58 am
Marcie, who by the way, is very enthused about our starting Origin of Species, pointed out to me that the entire text of the book is online. Therefore, I would not be posting text as I do in SofC. You may reall that I do this because not everyone here has the eleven Durant volumes. My posting this text is beneficial because it helps to keep everyone on the same page, so to speak, and our reactions relate to each other. People don't wander all over.

With the entire text of OofS being available to everyone here, the temptation on the part of some would be to comment on something much farther along in the book. If I were to be designated as the DL, I would name specific paragraphs or pages as we moved along and BEG everyone not to go past that. In that way, we would benefit not only from Darwin's text but from each other's comments.

Robby

Rich7
November 26, 2005 - 11:28 am
Bubble,

Yes, Carl Sagan did write the SF novel "Contact." It was made into a film, starring Jodie Foster. "Contact" has become a SF cult classic. I saw it and didn't like it. Although I do occasionally enjoy a good piece of writing in the science fiction genre, I've never seen a SF film that I liked.

People tell me that "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was good. Saw it recently and didn't like it.

"2001, A Space Odyssey" was about the best one ever made, in my opinion. Arthur C. Clarke's writing was so good that even Hollywood could not totally make a mess of it.

We'd better get back to Durant, or we are going to be kept after school for talking in class.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 11:28 am
If you want to be listed as interested in Origin of Species, go to Books & Literature and then scroll down to "Origin of Species, Proposed" and tell us so.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 11:30 am
"We'd better get back to Durant, or we are going to be kept after school for talking in class."

I have nothing further to post as I have not yet received any reactions to Guilds.

Robby

Bubble
November 26, 2005 - 11:55 am
Robby, a definite answer for OoS in a week or so: I don't see my friends before then.

I wonder if they also had strikes if they were like the union?

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 12:18 pm
In order to experience success as a businessman did you have to belong to a Guild? Did you have to pay dues in order to belong?

MeriJo
November 26, 2005 - 12:18 pm
The Guilds as I recall from sixty years ago in school were a beginning to unions. I think, however, that they did not argue for salaries and protections from employers as they concentrated mainly on the organization of the independent artisans who were in business for themselves - too far apart from other artisans in the same skill located in other towns. The concept began and later could be traced to the formation of unions.

The Church appears wealthy, but all of its treasures belong to the faithful. No clergy member owns the particular wealth.

Parishes collect money for their maintenance. The diocese holds the title to all properties within the diocese.

Church-run hospitals, universities, colleges and special schools, such as those for the deaf, are independent of the diocese and especially of the Vatican, and rely on tuition and fundraisers. These institutions are owned - (the title is held in their name) by the order of nuns, monks, or priests who run them.

My own high school and college each have boards made up of mostly lay people who guide the direction of each school.

The only school in the United States that is under the aegis of the Vatican is the Catholic University in Washington, D. C.

By the way - all pay taxes. In California, property taxes are exempted only on the building designated for worship, but property taxes are levied on all the other properties. I cannot speak for the other forty-nine states and the District of Columbia here.

Yes, the Church is wealthy, thanks to the faithful and their contributions. It belongs to them.

Hope this information helps.

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 12:33 pm
Merijo,

I understand your explanation about the Church. That is very helpful information.

I am still confused about what the Guilds accomplished. Could not belonging to a Guild insure the downfall of a business? If you as a silversmith belonged to a Guild, what did this membership accomplish for you?

Bubble
November 26, 2005 - 12:36 pm
Hats, I think it served as protection for the silversmith: you could not work as one if you did not belong to the guild. It was like a "diploma of worthiness"

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 12:51 pm
Apparently the UNIONS (GUILDS?) are still active.

Robby

Hats
November 26, 2005 - 12:52 pm
Bubble,

Now I understand.

MeriJo
November 26, 2005 - 01:36 pm
Robby:

Some organized groups of workers for the entertainment business are members of guilds. I think the word "guild" lends an understanding of intellectual craftsmanship to what they do, e.g. The Screen Actors' Guild, The Writers' Guild, The Directors' Guild and so on.

Malryn
November 26, 2005 - 01:38 pm

MERIJO, if the Church's wealth belongs to the faithful, why did the parents of kids I knew have to pay for them to go to Catholic parochial school?

Mal

MeriJo
November 26, 2005 - 02:17 pm
Mal:

My parents paid for my tuition in all three schools I attended. That is for general expenses and upkeep of the school.

The schools exist because the faithful of the institutions do that. Each generation of parents and alumni continue the support of such schools for the subsequent generations who will attend the school.

A case in point: My own college was founded in 1925 in a building on my high school campus. I recall it being called the "college building", but by then the college had moved to its present location, and my high school held classes there. When I went on to college there was only one building that accommodated the faculty, the students and the classrooms. The chapel was built during the four years I attended and the faculty building was begun.

There were approximately 150 students in all in 1943 when I graduated.

Today, there are several buildings on the hilltop campus where I went and a second campus in downtown Los Angeles where associate degrees are offered.

The enrollment is about 2200 hundred students now.

Each successive generation of students and friends and alumni continue to build on what is there.

The property is owned by the nuns running the school, but there are many involved in its operation.

Contributions have been generous and the endowment for the school is healthy.

I would think the wealth of the Church is in the assets it has that are available to people. There are scholarships available through the generosity of others in many of these institutions, but there are no governmental subsidies allotted.

Even governmental institutions charge tuition and place bond measures on ballots to support state-run schools.

robert b. iadeluca
November 26, 2005 - 02:56 pm
"Nearly all the guilds of the eleventh century were merchant guilds.

"They included only independent merchants and master workmen. They excluded all persons dependent upon others.

"They were frankly institutions in restraint of trade. They usually persuaded their towns to keep out, by a high protective tariff or elsewise, goods competitive with their own. Such alien goods, if allowed to enter the town, were sold at prices fixed by the affected guild.

"In many cases a merchant guild obtained from commune or king a local or national monopoly in its line or field. The Paris Company for the Transit of Merchandise by Water almost owned the Seine.

"By city ordinance or economic pressure the guild usually compelled craftsmen to work only for the guild or with its consent and to sell its products only to or through the guild.

"The greater guilds became powerful corporations. They dealt in a variety of goods -- purchased raw materials wholesale -- provided insurance against losses -- organized the food supply and sewage disposals of their towns -- paved streets -- built roads and docks -- deepened harbors -- policed highways -- supervised markets -- regulated wares, hours, conditions of labor, terms of apprenticeship, methods of production and sale, and prices of materials and wares.

"Four or five times a year they fixed a 'just price' that in their judgment gave fair stimulus and reward to all parties concerned. They weighed, tested, counted all products bought or sold in their trade and area, and did their best to keep inferior or dishonest goods from the market.

"They banded together to resist robbers, feudal lords and tolls, refractory workmen, tax levying governments.

"They took a leading part in politics, dominated many municipal councils, effectively supported the communes in their struggles against barons, bishops, and kings and themselves evolved into an oppressive oligarchy of merchants and financiers."

It all sounds so familiar. Just follow the daily news.

Robby

Justin
November 26, 2005 - 03:00 pm
One morning, a number of years ago,I was standing in front of Santa Croce in Florence, thoroughly engrossed in the conversation of an attractive young woman when a guild procession passed in front of us. The first guild wore blue with white piping in the style of the fourteenth century. They carried banners and pennants in the same colors. They were the leatherworkers. A second guild appeared in procession. They wore lavender and white costumes. They were the jewler's guild. They came to Mass in a body, had designated pews to sit in and I presume their forebears sat in the same pews in 1300CE.

Bubble
November 26, 2005 - 03:11 pm
Justin, you reminded me of the Ommegang in Brussels.

This site will explain it better than I could do:

http://www.2camels.com/destination353.php3

I saw the procession of crafts and trades in their historical costumes getting organized from their departure point and not at the Grand Place: it was more family like and I could talk to them and take pictures from close up. Not digital pictures unfortunately.

MeriJo
November 26, 2005 - 03:27 pm
Thought this was interesting:

"The guilds also maintained funds in order to support infirm or elderly members, as well as widows and orphans of guild members, funeral benefits, and a 'tramping' allowance for those needing to travel to find work." Wikipedia" about "Guilds"

Justin
November 26, 2005 - 03:34 pm
In the days before the AFof L and CIO merger our craft unions were separate organizations. The craftsmen's union, carpenter's union or the pipefitter's union, was able to set rules and establish standards for the craftsmen in the union. The union established requirements for apprentices, for journeymen and for master craftsmen. These craft unions had some of the characteristics of guilds.

The CIO you will recall included all workers in an industry. The automobile workers were such a group. I remember a winter in 1946 when the auto workers went on strike. I worked a night shift as a timekeeper at a General Motors assembly plant, while going to school. The time keepers were not unionized but were often caught in the middle of union strife.

The CIO workers were very unlike the guilds of Medieval Europe. They set no work standards, no quality standards, and chose not to fence in its field of work against outsiders. The field of work was open to all comers.

Malryn (Mal)
November 26, 2005 - 04:15 pm

Who else has belonged to a union? I was a member of the musicians union at one time -- had to be if I wanted to work.


Mal

3kings
November 26, 2005 - 06:29 pm
Mal yes I belonged to a union for 40 years of my working life. Not because it was compulsory, ( it wasn't) but because I have always believed in the idea of unionism. There were others in my workplace who, mainly on religious (Christian ?) grounds refused to join. They took the view, much supported by our managers, that unionism was a creation of the devil. I kid you not....

Of course, when the unionists won, by concerted effort, a small advance in wages and/or conditions, the non members grabbed the pay increases too. They were of that breed ( self promoted Christians?) who take everything, and give nothing.

In this country there are powerful 'professional unions ' for Doctors, Lawyers and such. They do not use the name union, but that is what they are. And they jealously guard their membership. They don't want too much competition for the cash !

Re your #41. I agree, that when returning to a work, many years after first reading it, it is found that one's ideas and attitudes have changed. It is interesting though to consider, are the more recent attitudes of greater worth than the earlier ones ? I often ask myself this question, but never manage to give myself a definite reply... LOL ++ Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
November 26, 2005 - 06:56 pm

To try and answer your question, TREVOR: I don't know how it is for men, but for me, I had to get rid of a lot of romantic ideas before I really could start to think well. To my satisfaction, that is.

Mal

Fifi le Beau
November 26, 2005 - 08:28 pm
I never belonged to a Union, but I support the idea. Anyone who makes their living working for someone else deserves the right to protect themselves from exploitation.

As Trevor so aptly noted the so called professionals who mainly work for themselves form 'associations'. The bankers, manufacturers, oil producers, insurance, attorneys, doctors, small business, big business, political parties and etc. They all have 'associations' that look out for their interests to exploit as opposed to the trade unions whose goal was to protect the worker from exploitation.

PBS did an excellent series on the unionization of the auto manufacturing sector some years ago and the conditions of the workers in these plants gave rise to the need to unionize.

Many miners died in an attempt to unionize, not to get rich but to survive. The mine owners were organized themselves and had plenty of money to spend to lobby congress for laws that favored the owners.

Working men and women built America, not the exploiters who trolled the halls of congress buying favors they neither earned nor deserved. I never knew a miner, but I always favor the underdog.

Fifi

Hats
November 27, 2005 - 04:34 am
Mother Jones was she a famous woman who worked hard for the miner's union?

_____________________________________________________________________

I remember reading about the great fire in New York. I can't remember the year in happened. The fire happened in a sewing factory. Many women jumped out of windows. I don't know how many died. I think the safety precautions for the workers in the factory were nonexistent or minuscule. I think it's called The Triangle Fires??? Not sure. Anyway, I wondered if the sewers were unionized? I suppose not or the working conditions would have been better. If they weren't unionized, I wonder why.

Malryn (Mal)
November 27, 2005 - 04:59 am

ABOUT MARY HARRIS JONES (Mother Jones)

robert b. iadeluca
November 27, 2005 - 05:04 am
"Throughout the thirteenth century the craft guilds waxed in number and power and provided a democratic check on the oligarchic merchant guilds.

"But the craft guilds in turn became an aristocracy of labor. They tended to restrict mastership to masters' sons. They underpaid their journeymen who in the fourteenth century weakened them with repeated revolt and they raised ever higher barriers against entry into their membership or their towns.

"They were excellent organizations for an industrial age when difficulties of transportation often narrowed the market to local buyers and capital accumulations were not yet suffiently rich and fluid to finance large scale undertakings. When such funds appeared the guilds -- merchant or craft -- lost control of the market and therefore of the conditions of work.

"The Industrial revolution destroyed them in England by the slow fatality of economic change. The French Revolution abruptly disbanded them as hostile to that freedom and dignity of work that for a bright moment they had once sustained."

The negative side of unions?

Robby

Hats
November 27, 2005 - 05:38 am

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 27, 2005 - 06:27 am
When I go to France in the back of my mind I am almost sure that during the time I am there, there will be a labor strike. Generally it is a general strike, one that literally paralyzes the country.

Public transport strikes perhaps benefit the employee, but the public cannot get to work and the strike creates a massive disruption throughout the country. When it is the public health workers who go on strike, the patients are tended by administrative staff or families, when the education system is on strike parents have to stay home to mind their children.

Strikes are no only in one area any more, like in coal mines. Unions form their own alliances and the aim of a strike is to disrupt the public enough that they will put pressure on the employer to agree with the demands of the union..

Now that governments own public transportation systems, here as well as in France, the strike spreads to all employees of the government sometimes hospital employees, teachers, government workers etc.

Like Durant said, "but the craft guilds become an aristocracy of labor".

Prices go up to pay for unions demands, inflation occurs that causes unions to strike for better wages and the wheels keep turning around and around.

Éloïse

Hats
November 27, 2005 - 06:32 am
I remember transport workers going on strike in Philadelphia. What a mess! Eloise, you are right. Workers, unless they can carpool, have no way to get to important destinations. I also remember sanitary workers going on strike. Trash piled up on city streets.

Strikes cause inconvenience to the people who are not a part of their union. Also, strikes can cause danger. Employers hire other people to work for cheaper wages. This can cause very hard feelings. People have been physically harmed for such doings.

robert b. iadeluca
November 27, 2005 - 07:32 am
The Communes

robert b. iadeluca
November 27, 2005 - 07:45 am
"The economic revolution of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, like those of the eighteenth and the twentieth, caused a revolution in society and government. New classes rose to economic and political power and gave to the medieval city that virile and pugnacious independence which culminated in the Renaissance.

"The question of heredity versus environment affects the cities, as well as the guilds, of Europe. Were they the lineal descendants of Roman municipalities or new concretions deposited by the stream of economic changes?

"Many Roman cities maintained their continuity through centuries of chaos, poverty, and decay. But only a few in Italy and southeastern France kept the old Roman institutions and fewer still the old Roman law.

"North of the Alps, barbarian laws had overlaid the Roman heritage. In some measure the political customs of the German tribe or village had seeped even into ancient municipalities. Most transalpine towns belonged to feudal domains and were ruled by the will and appointees of their feudal lords.

"Municipal institutions were alien, feudal institutions natural to the Teutonic conquerors. Outside of Italy, the medieval city rose through the formation of new commercial centers, classes, and powers.

"The feudal town had grown up, usually on elevations, at the junction of roads or along vital waterways or on frontiers.

"Around the walls of the feudal castle or fortified monastery the modest industry and trade of the townsmen or burgesses had slowly developed. When Norse and Magyar raids subsided, this extramural activity expanded, shops multiplied and merchants and craftsmen, once transient, became settled residents of the town.

"In war, however, insecurity returned. The extramural population built a second wall of wider circumference than the feudal moat to protect itself, its shops, and its goods.

"The feudal baron or bishop still owned and ruled this enlarged town as part of his doman. But its growing population was increasingly commercial and secular, fretted under feudal tolls and controls and plotted to win municipal liberty."

Comments, please?

Robby

Traude S
November 27, 2005 - 07:53 am
Durant had already given us information about the Hanseatic League and is now returning to the subject of guilds, or elaborating on it ? - a method he has used before, and one that confuses me, which is my problem, of course.

Re the question of unions, I believe modern-day unions can hardly be compared with the medieval guilds, "craft guilds" Durant calls them in the last quote; not least because of the political, or politicized aspect of the unions.

Unions are still a force in Europe; in France, as ÉLOÏSE has said, in Italy and in Germany, less so in Switzerland, to my knowledge.
European unions are able to address and pursue workers' complaints and have brought about improvements and corrections. Strikes are hugely inconvenient but grudgingly tolerated because they are successful means to an end. General strikes that paralyze a whole country are, mercifully, much rarer.

In my time - and for decades thereafter - European workers were protected by contracts that spelled out how much notice had to be given by both employer and employee. I was in shock and disbelief when I learned that in this country a person can be told on a Friday not to come back on Monday. I thought it was the height of ruthlessness, and I still do.
For what it is worth, my contract with my employer in Frankfurt stipulated a 90-day period within which to give notice.

The First of May is traditionally celebrated as "Labor Day" with parades, speeches, or for example with company picnics. That is what my employer did. He also gave the employees one month's salary as bonus on May 1st AND at Christmas. (The patent law firm for which I worked in Washington, D.C. handed out $5 in December of 1954. I actually can't remember any thereafter.)

robert b. iadeluca
November 27, 2005 - 08:05 am
Traude:-You will be able to follow Durant easier if you go to the Heading and read the sentence which begins "four elements." He constantly runs through those four in that order in every one of his volumes. As you can see by the GREEN quotes above, he is now covering the "economic." Later on he will touch on the other three, then when in a new topic starting those four all over again.

Robby

Rich7
November 27, 2005 - 10:31 am
MariJo, Don't take this personally, because I really love our conversations, but the stuff about everything belonging to the Catholic Church being "the people's property" sounds much like the old Communist lie, "Everything is the property of the people."

I grew up in New England, and the most valuable land in those states was (and is) waterfront property. A good amount of the finest waterfront land along the New England coast belongs to the Catholic Church.

This "property of the people" is fenced off from the public, with strategically placed NO TRESPASSING signs and gated entrances. Bishops, cardinals, monseignors, and maybe the occasional retired priest may enjoy "the people's" property but, if you can make it past the "Stay Out, Private Property" signs it's hard to make out any workingman's family playing on the wide, manicured lawns that lead past sprawling mansions down to the sea.

This elitist situation is changing a little. The Catholic Church has reluctantly had to sell some of this luxurious waterfront "people's property" because of the high cost of child molestation settlements in the Boston Archdiocese.

Rich

Scrawler
November 27, 2005 - 10:49 am
When I worked at Westinghouse in their small armaments department during the Vietnam war, I belonged to the Machinist Union even though I was just a clerk. Everything would go smoothly until the machinists would decide to strike. Than the clerks had to strike as well and go on the picket line. I remember being squished between two very large men. The end result was a bloody riot in which several people were injured when the machinists turned over cars trying to get into the plant. In the end we didn't get much out of it except a few extra pennies which went back to the union organizers.

Hats
November 27, 2005 - 11:00 am
Rich,

Your comment about the New England coast and the Catholic Church is very interesting. If true, and I believe you, then, that is a very sad state of affairs.

Thinking another way we don't find it strange when our American Presidents and their entourages go on extended trips to their "private properties." We, as Americans, I can't speak for other countries do have a feeling of paranoia when churches, whether Protestant or Catholic, have large amounts of money. What is in history or in our own pasts causing this fear? It seems our feelings are different when it comes to political bodies vs. church bodies.

MeriJo
November 27, 2005 - 11:16 am
Rich 7:

That property may belong to the particular diocese, but not to the Church. It is not organized as such. It would have been purchased from donations.

Thinking about it one can see that it would be a nightmare at tax time, or at a time of sale, or at a time of construction on the property to determine ownership. There must be a local entity such as the diocese or archdiocese to assume direct responsibility.

Dioceses/archdioceses carry insurance. This to-do over the child molestation is a bear of a problem because the bishops/archbishops didn't respond to it according to civil law and had the perpetrators arrested. They were put in an awkward place if the molester confessed in confession to their crime. The seal of confession would hold. This is why it has been so hard to gather information and the dioceses assumed responsibility. Otherwise, a diocesan priest would have been responsible for his crime as he does not take a vow of poverty and would have needed to pay as an individual. A member of a religious order who does take a vow of poverty would have become the responsibility of the order.

I belonged to three unions as a public school teacher, the NEA (national), CTA (California) and the VUTA (local district). Each exacted dues. Today, I do not mind that I paid all those dues because about four years ago someone in Sacramento decided us old teachers (retirees in 1977) would never make it on their current retirement pension (mine was less than four hundred dollars a month) and increased it very nicely - my son said around a 150% - It has been a godsend.

Fifi: You are right. They were and still are called associations. We never went on strike, though, the way teachers do now.

(My Thanksgiving vacation ends today, so it's back to exercising tomorrow.)

MeriJo
November 27, 2005 - 11:33 am
Hats:

The concept of the Church owning the property cannot be helped because it has only been since 1929 - the Lateran Treaty - that the Vatican became solely a spiritual entity and owning only the property that makes up the Vatican.

It is a situation similar to an individual who works and saves and eventually gathers a small nest-egg that his/her good sense guides to becoming increasingly larger. If the individual is not showy in his way of life no one knows that he/she is rich, but if he/she moves up to a larger more elegant home, a more expensive car and a more lavish lifestyle, then he/she becomes the envy of those who have less not knowing that he/she became wealthy by dint of hard work and business acumen.

Hats
November 27, 2005 - 11:41 am
Merijo,

It is great to meet a person who is able to answer questions so well about the Church. I have heard of the Lateran Treaty. I never knew the reasons for its origins.

robert b. iadeluca
November 27, 2005 - 11:42 am
Is there such a thing as a union of clergymen?

Robby

MeriJo
November 27, 2005 - 01:49 pm
Robby:

I think some Protestant clergymen have shown interest in forming unions.

I have not heard of any in the Catholic Church among the diocesan priests who do not take a vow of poverty. They get paid by the diocese, and if they come from wealthy families they usually have extra money of their own. Quite often these priests contribute money to various Church projects.

Justin
November 27, 2005 - 04:43 pm
Rich: MeriJo is encouraging us to become familiar with the organizational structure of the Roman Catholic Church and to be precise when selecting an entity for discussion. I have noticed that you and I both use "the church" to describe whatever is in question. MeriJo talks specifically about the diocese and it's legal role in society and about diosocen priests as distinct from the vatican and "the church". Perhaps,Merijo would give us a tutorial on these distinctions so we may associate the proper entity of "the church" with ownership of "beach property."

At the same time I think it would be nice if MeriJo would recognize that when one says "the church" one is talking about whatever entity within the church that is responsible. I particularly tend to see "the Church" as one big conglomerate that has allocated responsibility here and there to minimize social impacts.

mabel1015j
November 27, 2005 - 04:56 pm
Triangle Shirtwaist fire. Here's a link, be aware there are a couple disturbing pictures of young women on the ground.

http://www.csun.edu/~ghy7463/mw2.html

This article tells of the ground swell for organizing unions for women in the textile industry and others,that came after this tragedy. Unfortunately many of those young people who strolled past the picketers at Starbucks probably think that there was always a 40-hour work week, paid holidays, sick leave and retirement contributions by employers. They probably never heard of the TSFire or the working conditions of people in the coal mines or of Sinclair Lewis' "The Jungle." Unions are necessary, those of us who have belonged (I too belonged to teachers' unions) have a responsibility to be sure that the organization is speaking for us and not just for the heads of the unions. Our working conditions and benefits have been dearly paid for and those acts should be respected.

Many people today who complain about what the employers can do or not do for them don't realize that they could have some power and say in their work life if they organized. There has been such anti-union propaganda that many just automatically discount any good a union could do.

Yes, strikes can be disruptive to those of us not involved, but how else do workers remind us of how important they are to us and how can they put pressure on employers who often have enormous power, money, great numbers of lawyers ranged against the worker. In municiple strikes, your anger at being disrupted gets the politicians involved to settle - that exact situation just happened in PHiladelphia w/ a transit strike where Gov Rendell himself came and did some mediation and the strike ended in two days. Had there not been a strike, he would never have gotten involved and the city and the workers would have stayed stuck in their positions. There must be a quote by someone to the effect that we have to be uncomfortable for us to consider making a change????? Robby??....jean

mabel1015j
November 27, 2005 - 05:09 pm
I believe Jesus said something like "it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." When one is acting as a representative of a religious/values system, we get annoyed if you are espousing one action, but not adhering to that action yourself. THE POPE IS WEARING PRADA! How many tv stations told us that last week. How much did those little red shoes cost him? Of course, he has a personal right to wear any shoes he wants to, but don't i remember hearing something about a "vow of poverty," and how many meals, or medicines could those pair of shoes have paid for? It reeks of hypocrisy, pride, ostentation - all things i have a feeling Jesus, his "leader", would abhor!......jean

MeriJo
November 27, 2005 - 06:33 pm
Justin:

It's possible for the a diocese or the "Church" as you want to say to own beach property. It may have been a gift, it may have been in exchange for the sale of another property.

When title is transferred to a diocese, that diocese immediately takes on the responsibilities of ownership, taxes, assessments and maintenance. At least it does in California. I checked with the county assessor re church property taxes some time ago when the question of taxes came up. As a parishioner I had always contributed to my parish in November specifically toward the payment of taxes on church property. Here, only the building used for worship is tax-exempt. If it is used to hold a concert or the like for admission it loses its exemption here.

The "Church" actually, a diocese or a religious order often purchase property and hold it indefinitely until it can afford to build on it or find that it must be sold.

Years ago, a pastor here purchased acreage in the southwestern part of our town for the purpose of building a high school. The idea of a high school did not materialize for one reason or another, however, that land has now been designated for a third parish in the town and already over four million dollars has been pledged and/or contributed to the construction of a new church. The money will be collected before it is built. In the interim taxes, and assessments will continue to be levied by the county and state and the parish will pay them. Since then the town has become like a city and our population has increased. There need to be eight Masses every Sunday here in the old parish to accommodate all the Catholics and it is a very dynamic parish. Another parish in the north of town also needs several Masses every Sunday and has a busy set of programs for its people.

About the Pope's shoes: I believe there is a protocol for dress when wearing certain vestments. I have no idea what the shoes cost, but it would not be enough to cause much criticism considering all the charity the "Church" does. The cobbler who made the shoes was paid. The person who provided the material for the shoes was paid.

People want work that pays. It lifts their spirits and gives them a sense of worth. Healthy poor people often prefer work to outright donations. Look what has happened in France because a group has been shut out from the society there.

It is not inclined to "blow its horn" as it does good works. But, the faithful know of many. In our parish alone, we have a Catholic Charities spot that services the needy directly with meals every day, clothing, a clinic and interim housing for families with children who are stranded because of a catastrophe such as a fire, loss of a job or sudden lack of money. There is also a Thrift Store there, sales from which add to the monies to aid the poor. All these are serviced by volunteers.

robert b. iadeluca
November 27, 2005 - 06:55 pm
Let us return to "The Economic Revolution" -- specifically "Communes", as indicated in the GREEN quotes above.

"Out of old political traditions and new administrative needs an assembly of citizens and a corps of officials took form.

"More and more this 'commune' -- the body politic -- regulated the affairs of the city -- the body geographical. Toward the end of the eleventh century, the merchant leaders began to demand from the feudal overlords charters of communal freedom for the towns.

"With characteristic shrewdness they played one overlord against the other -- baron against bishop, knight against baron, king against any of them or all. The townsmen used diverse means to achieve municipal freedom.

"They took a solemn oath to refuse and resist baronial or episcopal tolls or taxes. They offered the lord a flat sum or an annuity for a charter. On the royal domanain they won autonomy by money grants or services in war.

"Sometimes they bluntly announced their independence and faought a violent revolution. Tours fought twelve times before its liberty was won. Lords in need or debt, especially in preparing for a crusade, sold charters of self-government to the towns that they held in fiefs. Many English cities in this way won their local autonomy from Richard I.

"Some lords, above all in Flanders, granted charters of incomplete freedom to cities whose commercial development enhanced baronial revenues.

"The abbots and bishops resisted longest for their consecration oath bound them not to lower the income of their abbeys or sees -- by which their many ministrations were financed.

"Hence the struggle of the towns against their ecclesiastical owners was most bitter and prolonged."

"Incomplete freedom" -- an oxymoron?

Robby

Traude S
November 27, 2005 - 08:52 pm
An oxymoron ? Not necessarily.

The freedom was limited ; granted (only) where it suited baronial interests (i.e. enhanced revenues).

The last paragraph of the quote could engender some discussion because that struggle took place in many different cities in different localities, for example in the eastern European regions within the zone of influence of the Hanseatic League.

ROBBY, thank you for # 78. I'll check the green categories in the header more carefully from now on.

Fifi le Beau
November 27, 2005 - 09:48 pm
Durant writes........

"Hence the struggle of the towns against their ecclesiastical owners was most bitter and prolonged."

The church resisted the independence of towns more than the Lords and Barons. Their 'consecration oath' bound them not to lower their income. What an unusual way for the church to keep the money flowing by requiring an oath that income would be extracted from the people of the land regardless of the situation. Incomplete freedom indeed!

Regarding the ownership of Catholic properties and charities in the USA. Catholic charities is a non-profit and therefore tax exempt. It receives millions of dollars from contracts with the U.S. Government. If you are being paid handsomely for the 'charity work' you do, is it really charity, and should the church be able to claim that title?

Catholic schools and Universities are listed as non profits and are therefore tax exempt, at least in Pennsylvania, according to an article I read recently. It would seem logical that the church would do the same elsewhere. According to the article (written by a Catholic) if Penn. changed the status of non profits, it would wipe out most of their charity, schools, and universities.

All the Protestant and Catholic church schools here are non profits and therefore tax exempt. This allows them to buy up property and grow their influence without contributing a dime to the community in which they set up shop. These schools must be provided roads, sewers, electricity, water, and the upkeep thereof by the home owners and business owners of this community through our taxes.

As Uruguay proved when they took control of education from the Catholic church, and provided it free to all its citizens, most church schools soon closed. The Catholic church had control of education for a number of years with the backing of the State, when the State no longer supported them financially, they quickly retreated.

Today the Catholics are lobbying for school vouchers (along with Protestants and other religions). This would mean that my property taxes would have to pay for their students. I do not support that effort, though I gladly pay for public education and support them in many ways besides my property tax.

Fifi

Hats
November 28, 2005 - 01:28 am
The little red shoes???

Hats
November 28, 2005 - 02:24 am
Merijo,

I do like to learn about the Catholic Church. You have the patience to explain questions in the context of Durant.

JoanK
November 28, 2005 - 04:02 am
Coming in late on the discussion of unions:

There have been abuses of the power of unions, which we could all point to. But the abuses caused by lack of workers having any say over their conditions of work are greater. Recently PBS has done a series of programs about the working poor -- those who work full time, but don't make enough money to survive -- and the poor elderly -- we all know some people who worked all their lives and don't get enough pensions to survive.

At the same time, we hear that all the "traditional airlines" are going bankrupt because they are "burdened with expensive union contracts", while the new airlines don't have to provide expensive pensions etc. and can undersell them. In the absence of social backing for mandating decent working conditions for all workers, workers really need unions.

When I worked for the government, I belonged to the employee's union. I was one of the few professionals that did so. The few other professionals in the union all came from a working class background and believed in the union movement. The middle class professionals that I worked with all looked down on unions. They had been taught that THEY were professionals, so valuable to employers that they could take care of themselves. Unfortunately, history is showing them wrong.

robert b. iadeluca
November 28, 2005 - 06:23 am
Read THIS ARTICLE and decide if unions (guilds?) are dead.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 28, 2005 - 06:38 am
"In France the enfranchisement of the cities involved a long and often violent struggle.

"At Le Mans, Cambrai, and Reims the ruling bishops, by excommunication or force, succeeded in suppressing the communes set up by the citizens.

"At Noyon, however, the bishop of his own accord gave a charter to the town.

"St. Quentin freed itself in 1080, Beauvais in 1099, Marseille in 1100, Amiens in 1113.

"At Laon in 1115 the citizens took advantage of their corrupt bishop's absence to establish a commune. On his return he was bribed to take oath to protect it. A year later he induced King Louis VI to suppress it.

"The struggle continued for a century.

"At Vezelay the people killed Abbot Arnaud and set up a commune.

"Orleans rose in 1137 but failed.

"Louis VII granted Sens a charter in 1146 but revoked it three years later on petition of the abbot within whose domains the city lay. The populace killed the abbot and his nephew but failed to re-establish the commune.

"The bishop of Tournai fought a civil war for six years to overthrow the commune. The pope excommunicated all the citizens.

"On Easter Sunday of 1194 the people of Rouen sacked the houses of the cathedral canons. In 1207 the city was put under a papal interdict.

"In 1235 at Reims the stones brought into the city to rebuild the cathdral were seized by the populace and were used for missiles and barricades in a revolt against the highest ecclesiastic in Gaul. He and his canons fled and did not return until two years later when the pope induced Louis VII to abolish the commune.

"Many cities of France never succeeded until the Revolution in establishing their freedom. But in north France most of the cities were freed between 1080 and 1200 and under the stimulus of liberty entered upon their greatest age.

"It was the communes that built the Gothic cathedrals."

Any comments about the rising and falling of communes?

Robby

Rich7
November 28, 2005 - 08:13 am
Traude, You mentioned a point of confusion because Durant discussed the Hanseatic league, then later, guilds. I'm surprised that Durant took them in that order, as well. Guilds developed before the Hanseatic league became a reality. In fact, the "Hansas" were a specific type of guild that worked to establish a trading monopoly amoung a number of major trading cities.

I agree with you on another point, as well. The guilds at the time, appear to me to be less like modern day "unions" and more like what we could call "corporations."

Rich

MeriJo
November 28, 2005 - 08:39 am
Thank you Hats!

Fifi:

As I posted I could speak only for California as I know our parish pays property taxes for all properties including the parochial school. I spoke with the county assessor about church property taxes.

There's a little more to it than your explanation about Catholic Charities, which is correct as far as it goes. The following is from the Philanthropy Roundtable. It is long and quite a fair assessment, I think.

Catholic Charities Funding

And the following from the California Taxes Information Center, a State website.

Nonprofit or exempt organizations do not have a blanket exemption from sales and use taxes.

There are always exceptions to everything and non-profits are no different. The following link has a short text.

http://www.taxes.ca.gov/exemptbus.html

(Have to stop for now and awhile. Things are too busy here at home for me. Until later.)

mabel1015j
November 28, 2005 - 11:33 am
Catholic Charities runs the only women's shelter in my county. The YWCA runs the only one in the county west of us. If women thought they were going have to listen to proselytizing along w/ getting shelter for themselves and their children, they may be more hesitant to seek help than many are already, especially non-Catholic/Christian women.

I have always appreciated that aspect of the Christian/Catholic Church. Now, as to whether God is unhappy that janitors in Texas are in poverty? If God is feeling that way, I wish he would speak to Texas' favorite son about that, they apparently have a good relationship. Apparently the Walton family has not had that conversation w/ God.

The "communes" work on a similar philosophy as unions. When people organize and work together they have more power to fight the greater power of church, king, corporations, employers. There a famous story that the Iroquois Indians told to Ben Franklin about it being easy to break one twig, but when you bound six or twelve together, it's almost impossible to break. BF repeated it to unify the colonies - history does keep coming up w/ the same stories, doesn't it?.....jean

Rich7
November 28, 2005 - 11:47 am
Jean,

A similar variation on that Ben Franklin advice, also from Mr. Franklin.

"We must hang together, or assuredly we will all hang separately."

(Words spoken by Franklin, in Philadelphia, after approval of the Declaration of Independence from England.)

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
November 28, 2005 - 05:50 pm
"The communes were a magnificent reassertion of human liberty.

"At the call of the bell from the town campanile, the citizens flocked to assemble and chose their municipal officers. The cities formed their own communal militia, defended themselves lustily, defeated the trained troops of the German emperor at Legnano and fought one another to mutual exhaustion.

"Though the administrative councils soon narrowed their membership to a merchantile aristocracy, the municipal assemblies were the first representative government since Tiberius. They, rather than Magna Carta, were the chief parent of modern democracy.

"The atavistic relics of feudal or tribal law -- compurgations, duels, ordeals -- were replaced by the legal and orderly examination of witnesses. The werbild or blood price gave way to fines, imprisonment or corporal punishment.

"The law's delays were reduced, legal contracts replaced feudal status and loyalties and a whole new body of business law created a new order in European life.

"The young democracy leaped at once to a semisocialistic state-managed economy.

"The commune minted its own currency -- orderd and supervised public works -- built roads, bridges, and canals -- paved some city streets -- organized the food supply -- forbade forestalling, engrossing,or regrading -- brought seller and buyer into direct contact at markets and fairs -- examined weights and measures -- inspected commodities -- punished adulteration -- controlled exports and imports -- stored grain for lean years -- provided grain at fair prices in emergencies -- and regulated the prices of essential foods and beer.

"When it found that a price set too low discouraged the production of a desirable commodity, it allowed certain wholesale prices to seek their own level through competition but established courts or 'assizes' of bread and ale to keep the retail price of these necessities in constant relation with the cost of wheat or barley.

"Periodically it published a list of fair prices. It assumed that for every commodity there must be a 'just price' combining costs of materials and labor. The theory ignored supply and demand and fluctuations in the value of currency.

"Some communes, like Basel or Genoa, assumed a monopoly of the trade in salt. Others, like Nurenberg brewed their own beer or stored corn in municipal granaries.

"The flow of goods was imepeded by municipal protective tariffs -- in some cases by requiring transient merchants to expose their goods for sale in the town before passing through.

"As in our century, these regulations were often circumvented by the sublety of refractory citizens. 'Black markets' were numerous.

"Many of these restrictive ordinances brought more harm than good and ceased to be enforced."

Democracy even before the Magna Carta?

Robby

Rich7
November 28, 2005 - 06:09 pm
Durant's enthusiasm for the communes comes through in his writing. "A magnificent reassertion of human liberty." "The young democracy "leapt" at once to a semisocialist state managed economy." "... their own colonial milita defended themselves lustily..."

Looks like he saved up his superlatives for this segment.

Don't we all reveal our own biases by the words we choose? (This poster included.)

Rich

Hats
November 29, 2005 - 04:12 am
Unfortunately, communes were not perfect.'Black markets' were numerous. I don't think 'Black markets' will become a part of our dead historical past. People who will work underground to get a product to others are unafraid of lawless practices.

I have always heard of Black markets in Russia and other countries. A person can find someone around a corner who will sell expensive jeans or some other product that can not be obtained otherwise.

Just last night I heard on the news about spouses who are unable to conceive children. Due to the high cost of medicines, lack of insurance husbands and wives are turning to people on the internet. From people on the internet the wife and husband will buy their medications to increase their fertility. Of course, it's not difficult to see this might become a regret. One couple shown had been successful. They now have healthy twins.

When migrants come across the border illegally, is that a type of "human" Black market? Are the arrival of illegal drugs from other countries the Black market? What about people who choose to break the law and sell drugs are they working on the Black market?

Maybe I want and need an exact definition of the Black market. I think of the Black market as a place where people can find a needed product, otherwise not sold legally in their country, for a cheap price.

I think this might exclude the arrival of illegal migrants from across the border. I don't think that is the Black market. Those are just people illegally coming across the border looking for a better life. Probably, this part of our history does not have a proper name yet or I do not know the proper title.

Also, when thinking of the Underground Railroad, I would hate to use the name 'Black market.' These were people trying to escape slavery and find freedom in the north, as far as Canada. It seems insulting to say that Harriet Tubman used the Black market to transport people from slavery.

robert b. iadeluca
November 29, 2005 - 04:18 am
The Agricultural Revolution

robert b. iadeluca
November 29, 2005 - 04:32 am
"The growth of industry and commerce, the spread of a money economy and the rising demand for labor in the towns transformed the agricultural regime.

"The municipalities, eager to get new 'hands,' announced that any person living in a town for 366 days without being claimed, identified and taken as a serf, became automatically free and would enjoy the protection of the commune's laws and power.

"In 1106 Florence invited all the peasants of the surrounding villages to come and live there as freemen. Bologna and other towns paid feudal lords to let their serfs move into the city.

"A large number of serfs escaped or were invited to open new lands east of the Elbe where they became automatically free.

"Those who remained on the manor showed a troublesome resistance to feudal dues long sanctioned by time.

"Emulating the town guilds, many serfs formed rural associations -- confreries, conjurations -- and bound themselves by oath to act together in refusing feudal dues. They stole or destroyed seignorial charters that recorded their bondage or obligations. They burned down the castles of obstinate seigneurs. They threatened to abandon the domain if their demands were not met.

"In 1100 the villeins of St. Michel-de-Beauvais announced that they would thereafter marry any woman they pleased and would give their daughters to any man who pleased them. In 1102 the serfs of St. Arnoul-de-Crepy refused their abbot lord the traditional heriot, or death due, or to pay a fine for letting their daughters marry outside the domain.

"Similar rebellions broke out in a dozen towns from Flanders to Spain.

"The feudal lords found it increasingly difficult to make a profit out of serf labor. Rising resistance required costly superintendence at every turn. Villein labor in manorial shops proved more expensive and less competent than the free labor that produced like goods in the towns."

How ya goin' to keep 'em down on the farm, etc.?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 29, 2005 - 04:45 am
Latest sign-up sheet for "Origin of Species" which begins January 1st includes Kleo, Mal, Eloise, Scrawler, JoanK, Dorian, Kidsal, Sunknow, and myself.

The addition of this new discussion group will in no way affect the continuance of Story of Civilization. In fact, there are those who have said that what is learned from one will help learning from the other.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
November 29, 2005 - 04:53 am
Does MOVEMENT TO THE CITY take place today?

Robby

Rich7
November 29, 2005 - 08:09 am
There is a social difference between European and American cities that has always been interesting to me.

Natives of cities like Paris choose to stay in the city core, with it's shops, theatres, restaurants, universities, etc. Ethnic minorities and emigrants from other areas, usually third world countries, settle in the suburbs.

In America, we have the opposite condition. There is a continuous exodus of those who have economically arrived, out of the major cities and into the suburbs, leaving the urban areas as derelict regions populated by ethnic minorities, third world immigrants and those generally disadvantaged.

Unemployment and crime are high in American inner cities. In Europe, those conditions are found in the suburbs.

Can anyone tell me why the difference?

Hats
November 29, 2005 - 09:29 am
Whether here or there, city to suburb or suburb to city, doesn't seem important to me. It's just a reversal in locations. What does seem important is that there is such a huge gap in class distinctions. These class differences prove that poverty and other social problems are still unsolved. This leaves communities to do what is beneficial and easiest, move to higher ground, move to places where social problems are not as evident.

Hats
November 29, 2005 - 09:45 am
Robby, thank you. This is a very interesting article.

Traude S
November 29, 2005 - 02:28 pm
HATS and RICH - your questions and the points you raised are relevant and cannot be left unanswered. But I have to ponder them.
I promise to be brief -- especially since we have since progressed beyond the points that occasioned the questions.

kiwi lady
November 29, 2005 - 04:24 pm
Hats - you are right!

In Turkey the wealthy live in exclusive city apartments also. It seems to be a European thing that the rich live in the middle of "all the action!" I cannot think of anything worse as a Pacific island dweller! Give me the suburbs and a look at the sea! The Asians who come here to study like to live in the middle of the city in tiny studio apartments. You would think you were in Asia if you did not know any better when you hit our city centre.

I don't pretend to understand European culture its old and very different to ours.

robert b. iadeluca
November 29, 2005 - 07:05 pm
"The new stimulus of freedom co-operated with an immense widening of the agricultural market to improve the methods, tools, and products of tillage.

"The rising population of the towns, the increase of wealth, the new facilities of finance and trade expanded and enriched the rural economy.

"New industries creatd a demand for industrial crops -- sugar cane, aniseed, cumin, hemp, flax, vegetable oils and dyes.

"The nearness of populous towns promoted cattle raising, dairy farming, and market gardening.

"From thousands of vineyards in the valleys of the Tiber, the Arno, the Po, the Guadalquivir, the Tagus, the Ebro, the Rhone, the Gironde, the Garonne, the Loire, the Seine, the Mozelle, the Meuse, the Rhine, and the Danube wine flowed along the rivers and over land and sea to console the toilers of Europe's fields, workshops, and counting rooms.

"Even England, from the eleventh to the sixteenth century, made wine. To feed the hungry towns, where fast days were numerous and meat was costly, great fleets went out into the Baltic and North Seas to bring in herring and other fish.

"Yarmouth owed its life to herring trade. The merchants of Lubeck acknowledgd their debt to it by carving herrings on their pews. Honest Dutchmen admitted that they had 'built upon herrings' the proud city of Amsterdam."

Read the above as though you were a literary critique. Isn't some of the language beautiful?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
November 29, 2005 - 07:56 pm
Durant has recently taken us through four hundred years of invasion, war, insecurity, disease, famine, and the destruction of European civilization.

He now has some good news, and he writes that news in a straight forward easy to understand yet lyrical way that sings right off the page.

I always read the bibliography before I read a book especially in history. I read every footnote and quote, and in my opinion Durant was a giant who laboured for years to bring to the world as much of known history as possible so as not to lose it as Europe did in the Dark Ages.

Today we have resources and access to more written material than Durant could have imagined, but anyone who has read this history and does not realize that all we have could be destroyed in the blink of an eye, is not paying attention.

We can only hope there would be another Durant out there somewhere to pick up the remaining bits and pieces and give it to the next generation.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
November 29, 2005 - 08:09 pm
Well said, Fifi.

Robby

Rich7
November 29, 2005 - 08:34 pm
Fifi,

Bravo!

Rich

Justin
November 29, 2005 - 11:25 pm
A worthy message, Fifi.

Justin
November 29, 2005 - 11:33 pm
Herring are finicky critters. They come and they go. When they are accessible economies prosper. When they go, prosperity goes. They built many seaport communities in the Netherlands and in Belgium. They built central California. One day in the late Forties the people of Monterey awakened to find the herring gone. The town closed up for several years. It has survived only on tourism based on the works of John Steinbeck. The herring never came back.

robert b. iadeluca
November 30, 2005 - 04:38 am
It must be especially hard if you are an older person and you lose your herring.

Robby

Bubble
November 30, 2005 - 04:39 am
... are you Robby? lol

robert b. iadeluca
November 30, 2005 - 04:40 am
OK! So fire me as DL.

Robby

Bubble
November 30, 2005 - 05:02 am
I was whispering a compliment... you did not hear it.

Éloïse De Pelteau
November 30, 2005 - 05:25 am
Re " anyone who has read this history and does not realize that all we have could be destroyed in the blink of an eye, is not paying attention".

The trouble with that is those are the ones who have the best jobs. Are you sure Fifi that it is only "not paying attention" that can destroy the world? Or something else?

Fifi le Beau
November 30, 2005 - 10:38 am
Eloise, it was simply an attempt to remind us of the old adage, 'if you don't learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it'.

Have we not read of the continual rise and fall of every civilization we have encountered so far? There has been no clan, tribe, village, town, city, state, or country that has not lost much of what they accomplished through generations of toil and progress at one time or another.

When Napoleon reached Egypt and saw hieroglyphics for the first time, he called for someone to tell him what the writing said. There was not one Egyptian who could read the writing. The knowledge from that part of their history was lost. Later Jean Francois Champollion deciphered the writing in 1822 and only then was the key to their history known.

We now know that only the Egyptian priests and kings had the 'key' to what that writing said. When they were deposed and a new order came into power, knowledge of the past was swept away.

So, you are right about those who hold the 'key' to where we are headed. Those 'key' holders are the leaders we have today, and most think they are invincible.

They are not, and history is the only example I can give.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
November 30, 2005 - 07:47 pm
The Class War

robert b. iadeluca
November 30, 2005 - 07:59 pm
"In the early Middle Ages there had been only two classes in western Europe:-German conquerors and native conquered.

"By and large the later aristocracies in England, France, Germany and northern Italy were descendants of the conquerors and remained conscious of this blood relationship even amid their wars.

"In the eleventh century there were three classes:-the nobles, who fought -- the clergy, who prayed -- and the peasants, who worked.

"The division became so traditional that most men thought it ordained by God Most peasants, like most nobles, assumed that a man should patiently continue in the class into which he had been born.

"The economic revolution of the twelfth century added a new class -- the burgesses or bourgeoisie -- the bakers, merchants, and master craftsmen of the towns.

"It did not yet include the professions. In France the classes were called etats -- estates or states -- and the bourgeoisie was reckoned as the tiers etat, or 'third estate.' It controlled municipal affairs and won entry nto the English parliament, the German Diet, the Spanish Cortes, and the States-General -- the rarely convened national parliament of France.

"But it had, before the eighteenth century, little influence on national policy. The nobles continued to rule and administer the state although they were now a minor force in the cities. They lived in the country (except in Italy,) scorned city dwellers and commerce, ostracized any of their class who married a bourgeois, and were certain that an aristocracy of birth is the only alternative to a plutocracy of business, or a theocracy of myths, or a despotism of arms.

"Nevertheless the wealth that came from commerce and industry began now to compete -- and in the eighteenth century would surpass -- the wealth that came from the ownership of land."

Old money and new money?

Robby

Bubble
December 1, 2005 - 12:12 am
and now there is also money from stock exchange speculation...

kiwi lady
December 1, 2005 - 12:51 am
The New Aristocracy consists now of the Kings of Industry and celebs. I don't know whether this is a class or not as so many of them have no class!

Hats
December 1, 2005 - 02:12 am
It rings of the caste system in India. The people who lived in the eleventh century felt like God had placed them in a certain line of work or profession. Living unhappily in that particular situation would maybe cause God's anger. So, they remained peasants, clergy or nobles for the rest of their lives.

I think the old money and new money thing will never die. On what side of the tracks were you born? What's your parentage? I think the old money and new money idea is why the study of Geneaology is so important. Aren't we looking for the special person on our ancestral tree who did something very fine for the community or for his or her country? Our hearts and minds pray we won't find a murderer or villain of some sort. It's a need to get closer to the smell of old money.

By the way, I love geneaology. I know there are some stinking skeletons on my family tree. Can't get rid of them. They are with our family for life.

Hats
December 1, 2005 - 02:12 am
Kiwi,

I tried to make you a smiley face. My smiley face finger maker isn't working this morning.

Now it's working.

robert b. iadeluca
December 1, 2005 - 04:41 am
"The rapid growth of urban populaton favored the bourgeois owners of city realty. The consequent unemployment made it easier to manage the manual working class.

"The proletariat of servants, apprentices, and hourneymen had little education and no political power and lived in a poverty sometimes more dismal than the serf's. A thirteenth century day laborer in England received some two pence per day -- roughly equivalent, in purchasing power, to two dollars in the United States of America in 1948.

"A carpenter received four and one eighth pence ($4.12) per day -- a mason three and one eighth, an architect twelve pence plus traveling expenses and occasionaly gifts.

"Prices, however, were commensurately low. In England in 1300 a pound of beef cost a farthing (twenty one cents) -- a fowl one penny (eighty four cents) -- a quarter of wheat five shillings, nine and one half pence.

"The work day began at dawn and ended at dusk -- sooner on the eve of Sunday or a feast day. There were some thirty feast days in the year but in England probably not more than six exempted the people from toil.

"The hours were a bit longer, the real wages no worse -- some would say higher -- than in eighteenth or nineteenth century England."

Are we better off now? Worse?

Robby

Hats
December 1, 2005 - 05:38 am
I think we are better off today. We have been shown by Durant the fixed nature of the classes in past centuries. In our society, we are allowed the chance, against difficult odds, at least, to move upward and forward.

Of course, we are not living in Utopia. So, women still make lower incomes than men, there are more men CEO's than women CEO,s. Also, some CEO's and politicians choose the unethical way in order to remain on top. In other words, they don't believe in the equality of the capitalist system that worked for them in the past.

Also, we have not, if I am correct, had a Jewish president, Afro-American president and only one Catholic president. We haven't elected a woman president either.

Yes, we live in a better time. We also live in a time needing improvement. We can not afford to become stagnant.

Hats
December 1, 2005 - 06:26 am

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 1, 2005 - 07:30 am
We have that today.

If we were worse off, we wouldn't live to this ripe old age. The longevity in the Western world is around 81 for women and 79 for men. Where this is low, as in the Third World countries, we usually attribute it to health problems rather than a problem of society.

kiwi lady
December 1, 2005 - 10:49 am
Eloise it is a proven fact that low socio economic groups without access to good health care do not live as long as the middle and upper class in developed societies. The United nations points out these groups in all of its annual reports on the developed nations. Indigenous peoples in all developed countries do not have as long a life span as the general population. Economic status has a lot to do with the life span of an individual.

Scrawler
December 1, 2005 - 11:32 am
I think that question is up for grabs. For example, right now my dryer is drying, my washing machine is washing, my diswasher is washing, and I'm sitting in front a computor - computing??????? But having said this in a little while I'll have to scrub the bathrooms BY HAND! So are we better off today?

mabel1015j
December 1, 2005 - 12:15 pm
In the "dark ages" of 1961 in my college sociology class we learned that class is not designated just by how much money you have, but also by things like what church you go to, what clubs or associations you belong to, how old is your family's money , etc. and that Vanderbilts and Lippincotts would not consider JOhn Wayne or Marilyn Monroe to be in their "upper" class category, no matter how much money they made.

As I read your previous postings my mind went to Bill Clinton, born in "lower" class, in Arkansas w/ all the behavioral accutrements of his family, the society around him etc. BUT, he became the most powerful man in the world, where does that put him in the minds of the "old moneyed/upper class" of today? Would they "allow" him into their society? How about Oprah? Bill Gates? Michael Jordan? How about the Bushes?

Do sociologists have a different definition today of how class is defined and who is in each class?............jean

MeriJo
December 1, 2005 - 01:47 pm
mabel:

Generally, I think we are just too mobile today to be in a specific category of class.

Also we live in a time of assumptions based on little evidence.

Many can acquire a "classy" stance by learning good manners, having inate good taste and just developing social knowledge of the area in which one lives.

Hats
December 1, 2005 - 02:07 pm
If you don't want to feel like you are living in a class system, where is it better to live in Europe or America?

Hats
December 1, 2005 - 02:15 pm
I have never been to Europe.

Sunknow
December 1, 2005 - 02:36 pm
Class and learning good manners:

I have a friend from a prominent family in a small town nearby. She had lost her husband, and then her mother, and was having to shut down two large homes in order to move into a condo. She's well off and her only son had married the only child of another prominent family nearby.

She wanted to give the Son and DIL whatever they wanted. They were to go to both houses and pick out any of the furniture, antiques, or family heirlooms that they wanted before she started getting rid of things. When she told the DIL, the young woman was quick to reply.

She said: "Save the jewelry for me, and have the rest of it hauled off." Then she got in her little sports car and drove off.

After I finished choking, I told my friend, "I wouldn't leave her a rhinestone." My friend had too much class to reply, but the look on her face was priceless. (note: the friend made a sizable fortune selling the things out of those two houses, not that she needed it)

Maybe some generations acquire "class" more slowly than others.

Sun

mabel1015j
December 1, 2005 - 03:31 pm

MeriJo
December 1, 2005 - 05:41 pm
Sunknow:

I've heard of similar situations. Some people never acquire sensitivity.

Hats:

For myself, this little old town in the Central Valley, hot though it gets come summer, is beginning to look better and better to me everyday in as much as I do not plan on moving.

I have been to Europe and when I visited Italy, my parents' native land, I did have a sense of being "home". However, whether or not to establish a home there, I think I am too old, even though I speak the language, to go through all the to-do of establishing a support system, doctors, plumbers, electricians, etc., and especially, a mechanic. I have driven in Italy and I think I could manage there again, but it would help to be at least thirty years younger. Lake Como is pleasant and nice. Also, pots of money would help. I just cannot get away from being realistic about things.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 1, 2005 - 06:10 pm
MeriJo, you say: "Lake Como is pleasant and nice"? It is gorgeous, breathtakingly lovely. You are right though about needing a support system, I would not go alone to settle there I don't think. You need lots of money to settle in Europe if you want the same lifestyle you have here though.

robert b. iadeluca
December 1, 2005 - 07:22 pm
"The communes, like the guilds, declined in the fourteenth century through the expansion of a municipal into a national economy and market in which their rules and monopolies obstructed the development of invention, industry, and trade.

"They suffered further through their chaotic internal strife -- their ruthless exploitation of the surrounding countryside -- their narrow municipal patriotism -- their conflicting policies and currencies -- their petty wars upon one another in Flanders and Italy and their inability to organize themselves into an autonomous confederation that might have survived the growth of the royal power.

"After 1300 several French communes petitioned the king to assume their governance.

"Even so the economic revolution of the thirteenth century was the making of modern Europe.

"It eventually destroyed a feudalism that had completed the function of agricultural protection and organization and had become an obstacle to the expansion of enterprise. It transformed the immobile wealth of feudalism into the fluent resources of a world wide economy.

"It provided the machinery for a progressive development of business and industry which substantially increased the power, comfort, and knowledge of European man. It brought a prosperity that in two centuries could build a hundred cathedrals any one of which presumes an amazing abundance and variety of means and skills.

"Its production for an extending market made possible the national economic systems that underlay the growth of the modern states. Even the class war that it let loose may have been an added stimulant to the minds and energies of men.

"When the storm of the transition had subsided, the economic and political structure of Europe had been transformed.

"A flowing tide of industry and commerce washed away deep-rooted impediments to human development and caried men onward from the scattered glory of the cathedrals to the universal frenzy of the Renaissance."

Comments on the recovering Europe -- recovering from the feudal life which made for thrilling fiction novels but which, in actuality, was stultifying?

Robby

Traude S
December 1, 2005 - 08:26 pm
Old money and new money - still the same thing. Nothing is entirely new in this world, it comes in different guises.

Among the newly rich in this increasingly computer-driven world are those who profit(ed) from stock ventures, huge bonuses and/or severance payouts; businesses of all kinds- most especially advertising agencies; companies aas well as individuals who benefited from spectacularly successful business decisions. It takes luck, pluck and business acumen, I suppose.

The English have done exceptionally well in their colonial exploits and splendid mercantlistic efforts, but their empire too was transitory, as so many other political and territorial reigns/entities.

________

HATS, I have experienced the black market in Italy and Germany after WW II. Most anything (but not everything) that was unavailable and/or illegal could be found there. In actual practice, the only valuable currency in western Europe after WW II were American cigarettes, in packs but preferably in cartons, until the day of the Monetary Reform in Germany which took effect on June 19, 1948.

It had been proposed by the American Government and was enacted not only in the American-occupied zone but also in the French and English zones.

The old Reichsmark, long valueless, was replaced by newly-minted Deutsche Mark. Every living German soul received thirty (30) marks and began anew at the same point. The East Germans behind the Iron Curtain had their own currency under the Soviet occupation. The English and the French zones concurred with the American measure.
This monumental decision by the Americans, followed by the Marshall Plan made the reconstruction of Germany possible.

_________

RICH, I agreee that Durant is subjective in his reporting, and that is probably inevitable. But one's view of history - even any single event - depends very much on where (in what part of the world) one stands. It will be interesting to see, for example, how Durant describes the Reformation, the Peasant Wars (Bauernkriege) or, for that matter, the Thirty Years' War (1618-48) when ever new bands of marauders drifted across the continent from Sweden to the south of Germany and into the eastern regions of Bohemia, pillaging, plundering and killing with impunity. The toll on the civilian population was enormous.

I believe that total subjectivity is impossible in the reporting of history. Take my generation. My late husband was not among the "Greatest" simply because he served in the wrong army, through no fault of his own.

FIFI, Durant certainly enlightened the American readers but he is much less known in Europe. It is easy to see how painstakingly he formulated and lovingly polished every single word to absolute perfection until they all became sparkling, flawless gems. He uses alliteration to good advantage ("villainaous Venice"). Durant bedazzles the beholder - and makes him/her breathless at times.

I promised this would be brief and apologize that it is not. So I will not add anything about class now. But this is a recurring subject that greatly preoccupied Durant and is bound to be mentioned again.

HATS, the history of the Catholic Church is fascinating. There are details not well enough known to parishioners in this country (e.g. the Babylonian Captivity of the Church when the papacy was in decline and there were two popes: one in Rome and the other in Avignon, France).

MeriJo, to the best of my knowledge, donations to Catholic Charities are tax-exempt in this country.

ÉLOÏSE, indeed : Sensitivity and tact are something that can NOT be learned. One either has them or one has not. And it shows.

mabel1015j
December 1, 2005 - 08:37 pm
of Barbara Tuchman's "Distant Mirror" and "Tuchman's Law" may be appropriate to read about at this point.

http://www.indepthinfo.com/articles/tuchmans-law.shtml

.......jean

mabel1015j
December 1, 2005 - 08:45 pm
I believe any behavior can be learned. We just need to be exposed to it and be ready to learn it. Being ready may mean that we have respect for those we see doing it, or teaching us, or that we see that it can be meaningful to us. That goes for what i would call positive behaviors AND negative behaviors.......jean

kiwi lady
December 1, 2005 - 08:45 pm
The aristocracy still survives in Europe and even in countries who have become Republics there are people still using old titles. My SIL to be says the aristocracy still survives in Turkey.

Old money still survives in the USA. My nephew in laws family money comes down from the seventeenth century to the family trusts today. They even did medical tests on my great niece when she was 13 in the US to make sure she was a genuine descendant. I could not believe it. She was summonsed to the US from her home here in NZ to meet the trustees and have the tests done. I was flabberghasted when her grandmother informed me about this summons.

Justin
December 1, 2005 - 10:58 pm
There were three estates in Medieval Europe: the nobility was one estate, the clericals formed another estate, and everyone else fell into a third estate. It was a convenient class system but one that existed with challenges.The nobility depended upon a large class of serfs who required protection from marauders and who were bound to manorial farmland for a livlihood. The crusades and the growth of cities provided the serfs with other alternatives thus weakening the power of the nobility and strengthening the hand of the serfs. Eventually, trade made some in the third estate wealthy and powerful, bringing into existance another class.

If one looks at the social order in Europe today it is easy to see remnants of this system still operating. The power of the nobility has declined substantially. The power of the third estate has grown enormously and the clerical force has been greatly weakened. However, the classes are still identifiable.

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 02:10 am
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Traude, reading about your experiences and the Black Market is very interesting.

Eloise and Merijo,

Guess what!! I haven't heard of Lake Como. I bet it is beautiful. I can imagine the prices are higher in Europe. The idea of a support system seems very important.

I love good old America. I have a doctor I love and other important systems in place. Besides, I can not afford an expensive lifestyle. I can only read about the rich and famous.

I do think Tuscany and other places in Europe are beautiful and very memorable.

Merijo, last night a movie came on about the life of Pope John Paul. We taped it. I haven't looked at it yet. Of course, each time zone is different. I find time zones just too confusing for my little mind to grasp.

Jean, I agree. I think it is possible to learn any behavior.

Justin, I can really understand your way of explaining the class system.You write so well I might even remember your explanation. Thank you.

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 02:17 am
Thank you for your link! I have heard of Barbara Tuchman. I have never read one of her books. I like the title 'The Distant Mirror.'

JoanK
December 2, 2005 - 03:59 am
HATS: I also read "the Distant Mirror" and found it very interesting, but rather depressing. I understand that she realized as she wrote it that she really didn't like the people she was writing abut, and it shows.

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 05:45 am
JoanK, that's interesting. I like to hear what authors think of their books. Maybe she considered not finishing it. At least, she went on with it.

robert b. iadeluca
December 2, 2005 - 05:55 am
The Recovery of Europe

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 06:10 am
"A flowing tide of industry and commerce washed away deep-rooted impediments to human development and caried men onward from the scattered glory of the cathedrals to the universal frenzy of the Renaissance."

If the recovery of Europe led to the Renaissance, all I can say is thank goodness! The time of the Renaissance was a time of Rebirth. I also think of it as a time of thinking in a new way. Were people really allowed to think freely without dreadful repercussions? Did people in authority fight against these ideas?

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 06:11 am

robert b. iadeluca
December 2, 2005 - 06:15 am
A glimpse at the new GREEN quotes in the Heading will show us the direction in which we are now heading.

"Alexius I Comnenus. after guiding the Eastern Empire succesfully through Turkish and Norman wars amd the First Crusade, ended his long reign amid a characteristically Byzantine intrigue.

"His eldest daughter, Anna Comnena, was a paragon of learning, a compendium of philosophy, a poet of parts, a politican of subtlety, a historian of accomplished mendacity. Betrothed to the son of the Emperor Michael VII, she felt herself marked for empire by her birth, her beauty, and her brains and she could never forgive her brother John for being born and succeeding to the throne.

"She conspired to assassinate him, was detected and forgiven, retired to a convent, and chronicled her father's career in a prose Alexiad.

"John Comnenus astonished Europe by a reign of private virtue, administrative competence, and victorious campaigns against pagan, Moslem, and Christian foes. For a time it seemed that he would restore the Empire to its former scope and glory. But a scratch from a poisoned arrow in his own quiver ended his life and his dream.

"His son Manuel was an incarnate Mars, dedicatd to war and delighting in it, ever in the van of his troops, welcoming single combat, and winning every battle but the last.

"Stoic in the field, he was an epicurean in his palace, luxurious in food and dress and happy in the incestuous love of his niece. Under his indulgent patronage literature and scholarship flourished again. The ladies of the court encouraged suitors and themselves condescended to write poetry. Zonaras now compiled his immense Epitome of History. Manuel built for himself a new palace, the Blachernae, on the seashore at the end of the Golden Horn.

"Odom of Deual thought it 'the fairest bulding in the world. Its pillars and walls were half covered with gold, and encrusted with jewels that shone even in the oscurity of the night.'

"Constantinople in the twelfth century rehearsed the Italian Renaissance."

The plot enfolds. Doesn't it sound like the start of a novel? "Truth is stranger than fiction."

Robby

Bubble
December 2, 2005 - 06:23 am
Was it normal in that time for women to be as educated as Anna Comnena?

http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/heroine5.html

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 06:34 am
Robby, it does sound like the beginning of a novel.

Bubble, thank you for the link.

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 06:44 am
Anna Comnena's life is very, very interesting. Anna Comnena was a very intelligent woman. She wrote a many volumed history of her family. After the birth of her brother, her family decided that he should take the throne instead of Anna Comnena. That seems terribly unfair! After all, before his birth, she was given the crown.

On one side the family was very liberal minded to give their daughter an education. On the other hand, the family still held the old tradition that the male should have control of important matters.

JoanK
December 2, 2005 - 06:52 am
I wonder if they would have given her the eduation if they had known that they would have a son. I still know women of my age whose education was sacrificed for ther brother's.

Malryn (Mal)
December 2, 2005 - 08:03 am

HATS, ROBBY and all: I'm sorry, but this unpacking after moving is a very big job. Add to it the fact that I'm not feeling too well right now , and that's a picture of me. I'll be more active in the Story of Civilization discussion as time goes by. You can be sure I read these posts at least twice a day.

Anna Comnena

Hats
December 2, 2005 - 08:52 am
Get well soon!! You are missed!

Thank you for the link!

MeriJo
December 2, 2005 - 11:20 am
Traude:

Your're right. Such donations by individuals are not only tax-exempt, but may be deducted as donations in one's income tax report. I think Catholic Charities needs to file an income tax report under a certain designation that I have forgotten now. I don't know all the levels at which it must file. I used to file for a non-profit chapter of an exchange student program. It's a way of keeping track of non-profits and from where they get their money.

The commune continues in Italy. I don't know how effective it is, but my mother was born in the "commune di Buggiano" (Tuscany) and when my cousin visited there a few years ago he photographed the sign designating the boundaries of that commune and sent it to me.

mabel1015j
December 2, 2005 - 01:29 pm
I have forgotten when Ariel became involved in these volumes, but my guess is that we are seeing her hand in this chapter.

re: women's education in the Middle Ages; there were many (that's relative, of course) upper class and royal women who were educated during these times. Elite women were educated, as Anna was in the convents, abbeys and monasteries, many of which were built by women, such as Irene. There were Mother Superiors/Abbesses who had substantial power and in some cases, particularly in the German states, they sometimes administered both the abbeys of the men and the women. As described, some the women were excellent organizers and administrators, both logistical and financial, and they educated others and did research and writing.

We don't know much about them because they fall under two stereotypical myths: nothing was happening during the "Dark Ages" and women's history and women in history are not important. Fortunately, those two myths are being debunked today.......jean

Justin
December 2, 2005 - 02:25 pm
Anna Comnena is an original historian in the manner of Polybius and Thucydides. One is called"original" as opposed to critical or reflective or philosophical because the original historian writes what is seen with one's own eyes. Caesar falls in this camp as does Herodotus. Livy does not nor does Durant. However, it for this reason (that she is original) that we may take what she says of her father, Alexius, and the events of his court as the report of a biased eyewitness. Her bias is evident and justified when she reports upon the Latins who came to help fight off the Turks.

Those of you who were with us when we read Jeanne Bourin's Les Peregrines will remember Anna Comnena as the well mannered and well informed Princess through whose eyes we see the Latins who came to Constantinople as barbarians.

robert b. iadeluca
December 2, 2005 - 06:54 pm
"This splendor of the capital and the many wars that the aging empire waged to ward off death required heavy taxation which the enjoyers of luxuries passed on to the producers of necessaries.

"The peasants grew poorer and surrendered to serfdom. The manual workers of the cities lived in noisome slums whose dark filth harbored uncounted crimes. Vague semicommunistic movements of revolt agitated the proleterian flux but have been forgotten in the careless repetitiousness of time.

"Meanwhile the capture of Palestine by the Crusaders had opened Syrian ports to Latin commerce. Constantinople lost to the rising cities of Italy a third of its maritime trade. Christian and Moslem alike aspired to capture this treasury of a millenniunm's wealth. A good Moslem, visiting the city in Manuel's heyday, prayed:-'May God in His generosity and grace deign to make Constantinople the capital of Islam!'

"And Venice, daughter of Byzantium, invited the chivalry of Europe to join her in raping the Queen of the Bosporus.

"The Latin kingdom of Constantinople, established by the Fourth Crusade, endured but fifty-seven years (1204-61).

"Rootless in the race, faith, or customs of the people -- hated by a Greek Church forcibly subject to Rome -- weakened by its division into feudal principalities each aping sovereignty -- lacking the experience required to organize and regulate an industrial and commercial economy -- attacked by Byzantine armies without and conspiracies within -- and unable to draw from a hostile population the revenues needed for military defense -- the new kingdom stood only as long as Byzantine revenge lacked unity and arms.

A powder-keg ready to blow? Or perhaps an invalid ready to die?

Robby

Justin
December 2, 2005 - 07:13 pm
The Fourth Crusade attack and capture of Constaninople was a vicious attack by Latin Christians upon Byzantine Christians. Some years (1099) earlier Alexius worried about the crusaders coming to his rescue and so he forced them to camp outside the city gates. Anna, his daughter,failed to find trust in the Latins and frequently referred to them as barbarians. Happy were this pair when the troops moved off to Antioch.

kiwi lady
December 3, 2005 - 10:30 am
My daughter comes home from Constantinople today! I am dying to hear about the ancient buildings and all she has to tell me.

Some Turks still like to refer to Istanbul as Constantinople even today. Some of them were sad the name of their city was changed.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2005 - 02:51 pm
The Armenians

1060-1300

Hats
December 3, 2005 - 02:56 pm
Carolyn,

I would like to be a fly on the wall. Your daughter will have lots of stories to tell.

I just discovered that Constantine the Great was the founder of Constantinople. Am I late or what???

Robby, I see the blue letter. I am moving along.

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2005 - 03:03 pm
"About 1080 many Armenian families, resenting Seljuq domination, left their country, crossed the Taurus Mountains, and established the kingdom of Lesser Armenia in Cilicia.

"While Turks, Kurds, and Mongols ruled Armenia proper, the new state maintained its independence for three centuries.

"In a reign of thirty-four years Leo II repelled the attacks of the sultans of Aleppo and Damascus -- took Isauria -- built his capital at Sis (now in Turkey) -- made alliances with the Crusaders -- adopted European laws -- encouraged industry and commerce -- gave privileges to Venetian and Genoese merchants -- founded orphanages, hospitals, and schools -- raised his people to unparalleled prosperity -- earned the name of Magnificent -- and was altogether one of the wisest and most beneficent monarchs in medeival history.

"His son-in-law Hethum I, finding the Christians unreliabe, allied himself with the Mongols and rejoiced at the expulsion of the Seljuqs from Armenia. But the Mongols became converts to Mohammedanism, warred on Lesser Armenia, and reduced it to ruins.

"In 1335 Armenia was conquered by the Mamluks and the country was divided among feudal lords.

"Through all this turbulence the Armenians continued to show an inventive skill in architecture, a high excellence in miniature painting, and a resolutely independent form of Catholicism which turned back all attempts at domination by either Constantinople or Rome."

Isn't there some kind of "disagreement" between the Turks and the Armenians which still exists?

Robby

Bubble
December 3, 2005 - 03:16 pm
Kurds and Armenians are a minority in Turkey today and there are frictions always. Armenians today retain those skills in miniatures, painting and ceramics. The plates, tiles, bowls decorated with geometric or floral motives are particularly attractive. In Old Jerusalem there is the Armenian Quarter were one can find these ceramics.

MeriJo
December 3, 2005 - 04:44 pm
In 1915, the Turks slaughtered millions of Armenians. The event has been compared to the Holocaust under Hitler. I don't know why this happened. It was during World War I but I think it was a separate action. I have not looked it up. There are many Armenians in Fresno and each year there is a much-publicized memorial of this event there. It is remembered as the Armenian Genocide.

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2005 - 05:04 pm
Here is information about the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 3, 2005 - 05:08 pm
What was the OTTOMAN EMPIRE?

Undoubtedly Durant will take us there at a later time.

Robby

kiwi lady
December 3, 2005 - 07:51 pm
Robbie I mentioned the fact that Albanians still had blood feuds to my Turkish SIL to be and said I thought they must be pretty backward to still carry on this practice. He seemed to bear no ill will toward the Albanians and I was quite surprised. However I do know that I have not met a Turk yet who likes the Kurds. They are quite ambivalent toward them.

mabel1015j
December 3, 2005 - 11:04 pm
I had a student in my class whose grandparents were part of the ARmenian expulsion. They went to Syria. Her father grew up speaking Armenian and Arabic, when she was small her family moved to France, so she spent her childhood years in France and learned to speak Armenian, Arabic and French and now she and her husband live in the U.S. and she spoke very good English. She may have also understood Turkish, because i remember saying she could communicate in 5 languages!

How insulated we are in the U.S. our WASP children barely speak proper English and don't have much exposure to others. They think any one whose first language is something other than English is the "inferior one" and SHOULD speak English like the rest of us, not that it would benefit the WASP to learn a second or third language.I'm using WASP symbolically, of course......jean

Justin
December 4, 2005 - 12:01 am
Five out of ten people in a ten mile radius from my home speak Spanish. Do I? Not at all. No more than ten words at most. Nor do most of the other Anglos in my area. Many of the other Anglos in this area think it is wrong for bilingual teachers in elementary schools to teach lessons in Spanish. We miss a golden opportunity to make the children as well as ourselves properly bilingual. The children will learn street English from their peers whether we teach them in Spanish or not.

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2005 - 05:53 am
This article from this morning's NY Times talks about the ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2005 - 05:55 am
Russia and the Mongols

1054-1315

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2005 - 06:12 am
"In the eleventh century southern Russia was held by semibarbarous tribes -- Cumans, Bulgars, Khazars, Polovtsi, Patzinaks.

"The remainder of European Russia was divided into sixty-four principalities -- chiefly Kiev, Volhynia, Novgorod, Suzdalia, Smolensk, Ryazan, Chernigov, and Pereyaslav. Most of the principalities acknowledged the suzerainty of Kiev.

"When Yaroslav, Grand Prince of Kiev, died, he distributed the principalities, according to their importance, among his sons in order of their seniority. The eldest received Kiev and by a unique rota system it was arranged that at any princely death each princely survivor should move up from a lesser to a greater province.

"In the thirteenth century several principalities were further split into 'appanages' -- regions assigned by the princes to their sons. In the course of time, these appanages became hereditary and formed the basis of that modified feudalism which would later share with the Mongol invasion the blame for keeping Russia medieval while western Europe advanced.

"In this period, however, the Russian towns had a busy handicraft industry and a richer trade than they would have in many later centuries.

"The power of each prince, although usually inherited, was limited by a popular veche or assembly and by a senate of nobles (boyarskaya duma). Administration and law were mostly left to the clergy.

"These, with a few nobles, merchants and money lenders, almost monopolized literacy. With Byzantine texts or models before them, they gave Russia letters and laws, religion and art. Through their labors the Russkaya Pravda, Russian Right or Law, first formulated under Yaroslav, rceived emendation and definitive codification.

"The Russian Church was given full jurisdiction over religion and the clergy, marriage, morals, and wills. She had unchecked authority over the slaves and other personnel on her extensive properties.

"Her efforts moderately raised the legal status of the slave in Russia, but the traffic in slaves continued and reached its height in the twelfth century."

I wonder if Russia is that much different today.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2005 - 06:27 am
A map of today's Russia plus facts. Is RUSSIA European or Asian?

Robby

MeriJo
December 4, 2005 - 01:44 pm
Thank you, Robby for the links to the Armenian Genocide. Also to those of Russia.

A, perhaps, little known fact is that Russia - actually Siberia, has vast deposits of gold. When I toured the Winter palace in St, Petersburg, the guide explained that restoration of the building following World War II had been as exact as it could be even to the replacement of the gold. The pillars, parts of walls and stairs, were covered in gold - a gold leaf, I believe. The amount of gold was extraordinary. At one point I needed just "to see for myself" and I edged over to one of the columns beside the staircase and looked closely and even felt the covering. The gold was very smooth, unblemished and beautifully molded to the pillar. The gold in Russia is burnished bright yellow so it gleams.

One member of my group commented quietly later that with all that gold, it would seem that the poverty we had seen outside the palace would be greatly alleviated if the known gold deposits were sold to provide some care for the poor.

The next time you see pictures of those golden onion domes of the various Russian Orthodox churches - that is the real stuff.

robert b. iadeluca
December 4, 2005 - 05:02 pm
"That same century saw the decline and fall of the Kievan realm.

"The feudal anarchy of the West had its rival in the tribal and princely anarchy of the East. Between 1054 and 1224 there were eighty three civil wars in Russia, forty six invasions of Russia, sixteen wars by Russian states upon non-Russian peoples and 293 princes disputing the throne of sixty four principalities.

"In 1113 the impoverishment of the Kievan population by war, high interest charges, exploitation and unemployment aroused revolutionary rioting. The infuriated populace attacked and plundered the homes of the employers and moneylenders and occupied the offices of the government for a moment's mastery.

"The municipal assembly invited Prince Monomalth of Pereytaslavl to become Grand Prince of Kiev. He came reluctantly and played a role like Solon's in the Athens of 594 B.C. He lowered the rate of interest on loans, restricted the self-sale of bankrupt debtors into slavery, limited the authority of employers over employees and by these and other measures -- denounced as confiscatory by the rich and as inadequate by the poor -- averted revolution and reorganized peace.

"He labored to end the feuds and wars of the princes and to give Russia political unity. But the tqsk was too great for his twelve years of rule.

"After his death the strife of princes and clases was resumed.

"Meanwhile the continued possession of the lower Dniester, Dnieper, and Don by alien tribes and the growth of Italian commerce at Constantinople in the Black Sea and in the ports of Syria diverted to Mediterranean channels much of the trade that formerly had passed from Islam and Byzantium up the rivers of Russia to the Baltic states.

"The wealth of Kiev declined and its martial means or spirit failed. As early as 1096 its barbarian neighbors began to raid its hinterland and suburbs, plundering monasteries and selling captured peasants as slaves.

"Population ebbed from Kiev as a danger spot and man power further fell.

"In 1169 the army of Andrey Bogolyubski sacked Kiev so thoroughly and enslaved so many thousands of its inhabitants that for three centuries the 'mother of Russian cities' almost dropped out of history.

"The seizure of Constantinople and its trade by Venetians and Franks in 1204 and the Mongol invasions of 1229-40 completed the ruin of Kiev."

Apparently Russia has never seen peace in any form.

And there is class war -- or have I mentioned that before?

Robby

Hats
December 5, 2005 - 02:12 am
I have read about the the Armenian Genocide. It's so sad to hear about that situation, the Holocaust and other genocidal situations. I hate it.

Jean, your post about the children in your classroom and also about the language barrier is very interesting.

Merijo, I really enjoyed your post about the Winter Palace. I bet all that gold could hurt your eyes! I would love to see it. I bet it is gorgeous.

Robby, I don't know much about Russian History. I do believe Russia has suffered many conflicts. Just recently was there not a spirit of nationalism? Certain provinces wanting to pull away and form there own government, I can't remember the names of the places.

I always remember that long ago war with Russia and Napoleon. All that snow!!

Bubble
December 5, 2005 - 03:28 am
Another terror act. We four are safe and sound here. Ben was in town but not that near of the mall. The phone is ringing non stop. I am glad I have only good news about us. Bubble

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2005 - 04:09 am
We are always concerned about you, Bubble. Thanks for letting us know you are OK.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2005 - 05:42 am
Is RUSSIA any different now from centuries ago?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2005 - 05:48 am
"Russia passed from the 'Little Russians' of the Ukraine to the roaugher hardier 'Green Russians' of the region around Moscow and along the upper Volga.

"Founded in 1156, Moscow was in this age a small village serving Suzdalia (which ran northeast from Moscow) as a frontier post on the route from the cities of Vladimir and Suzdal to Kief. Andrey Bogolyubski fought to make his principality of Suzdalia supreme over all Russia. He died by the hand of an assassin while campaigning to bring Novgorod, like Kiev, under his sway."

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 5, 2005 - 06:55 am
In this link we can see the INFLUENCE OF ISLAMIC COINS ON THE RUSSIAN MONEYTARY SYSTEM and further down the link a big map of the flow of silver from Central Asia to Russia to Scandinavia.

Rich7
December 5, 2005 - 08:57 am
Whenever I talk to anyone about Russian history, I always recommend the book "Peter The Great" by Massie (sp?).

It tells how Peter took Russia from an Asian nation (under his father Csar Alexis) to a totally Western orientation, culminating with his building of the beautiful city of St Petersburg on the Neva River.

It's my favorate European history book, after Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror"

I was there (St. Petersburg) a few years ago, and it still is beautiful, although filled with tourists (like me).

By the way, MeriJo, they are still looking for you there. There seems to be some gold missing from the roof of the Winter Palace, and you were observed lurking there a number of years ago.

Rich

Hats
December 5, 2005 - 09:01 am
Rich, I will look for that particular book at my library. Recommendations are always helpful.

Rich7
December 5, 2005 - 09:07 am
Hats,

Be sure to read it. I guarantee you will love the book. It's not a stodgy old history book. It's well written and captures you right from the beginning. You'll learn that Peter did like to "party."

Rich

Hats
December 5, 2005 - 09:20 am
Oh my!

MeriJo
December 5, 2005 - 09:52 am
BUBBLES:

Good to know you are all right. Thanks for letting us know!

HATS:

Winter Palace

Today it is the famous Hermitage Museum. Be sure to click on the images and you will see all the gold. The interior is magnificent.

RICH7:



ELOISE

Appreciated your link about the Russian coins. Most interesting! Thank you.

Hats
December 5, 2005 - 09:59 am
Merijo,

Thank you!!

Hats
December 5, 2005 - 10:00 am
Merijo,

What a grand site!! I will have lunch. Then, enjoy looking at the Winter Palace. Thanks again!

Justin
December 5, 2005 - 01:24 pm
The immense size of Russia is a bit overwhelming. It runs from the Sea of Japan to the Black Sea.

Fifi le Beau
December 5, 2005 - 03:09 pm
Russia is one and a half times larger than the U.S. with a smaller population. They lost 19 million people in WW11, which is more than all the other countries combined. There was such a shortage of men that women went to work doing jobs usually held by males.

To me the story that defines Russia is the siege of Leningrad (St. Petersburg) in the 1940's. It is not flamboyant or extravagant like the story of Peter the Great, but then the story of tsars, dictators, kings, and presidents are never about the people who make up the country they rule. Thousands and perhaps millions died building the extravagant palaces of the tsars that we admire.

The Winter Palace is now the Hermitage and a museum, and is well worth the visit for the art alone, but the palace of Catherine in nearby Tsarskoe Syolo is as interesting. Her palace was occupied by the Germans in WW11 and the inside practically destroyed. The Amber Room was dismantled and carted away by the Germans. The Russians have rebuilt the room from scratch, but the color is much lighter than pictures of the original.

Amber is not valued in the U.S. as it is in the Baltic. In reading about the history of amber in that area last summer, I came across some new gods to add to Robby's list. The Lithuanians had a goddess, Queen Jurate, who lived underwater in a palace made of amber. She had an affair with a human fisherman so Perkunas the god of thunder sent a thunderbolt and shattered the amber palace and its inhabitants.

Here are pictures of Catherine's palace, including some of the new amber room. They opened the room in 2004, but I understand from friends that pictures are no longer allowed. The comment at the top of the page expresses my sentiments, but others who have made the journey have a different opinion.

Catherine Palace

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
December 5, 2005 - 03:39 pm
Here is a photo of the original 'Amber Room' that was crated up and taken away by the Germans in WW11.

The translation from the accompaning article has some of the dates wrong, such as 1904, that should be 1704.

Amber Room in 1940

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2005 - 05:21 pm
Fifi referred to my list of gods and goddesses that I presented at the very start of reading "The Age of Faith." Here they are:-

Throughout that progress toward civilization what we now call "religion" was ever-present. We felt the supernatural influence of sky gods, the sun god, plant gods, animal gods, sex gods, Osiris, Isis, Horus, Marduk, Ishtar, Tammuz, Polytheism, Henotheism, Yahveh, Zarathustra, Mithra, Naga, Hanuman, Nandi, Varuna, Prithivi, Parjanya, Agni, Vayu, Rudra, Indra, Ushas, Sita, Vishnu, Krishna, and Buddha. Add on to that the worship of ancestors, yin and yang, T'ien, the philosophy of Confucius, Shang-Ti, the doctrine of Lao-tze, and the Taoist faith.

Then came Zeus, Athena, Demeter, Hera, Artemis, Poseidon, Dionysus, Hermes, Priapus, Aphrodite, and countless others who competed with but finally lost to the less supernatural advancement of the philosophies of Xenophanes, Parmenides, Plato, Zeno, Philolaus, Leucippus, Democritus, Empedocles, Pericles, Protagoras, Socrates and Aristotle.

The Roman Empire, however, shunned the philosophies of Greece and re-introducing us to gods, gave us Jupiter, Vesta, the Lar, the Penates, Janus, Juno, Cuba, Abeona, Fabulina, Tellus, Mars, Pomona, Faunus, Pales, Sterculus, Saturn, Ceres, Fornax, Vulcan, Minerva, Venus, Diana, Hercules, Pluto, Mercury, and Neptune.

Religion had returned in full force, bringing with it, even as Rome lay dying, a belief in monotheism growing out of Ancient Judea.

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2005 - 05:57 pm
Is Russia as much ASIAN as European?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 5, 2005 - 06:15 pm
"The Mongols entered Russia in overwhelming force.

"They came from Turkestan through the Caucasus, crushed a Georgian army there, and pillaged the Crimea. The Cumans, who had for centuries warred against Kiev, begged for Russian aid, saying:-'Today they have seized our land, tomorrow they will take yours.' Some Russian princes saw the point and led several devisions to join the Cuman defense.

"The Mongols sent envoys to propose a Russian alliance against the Cumans. The Russians killed the envoys. In a battle on the banks of the Kalka River, near the Sea of Azov, the Mongols defeated the Russian Cuman army, captured several Russian leaders by treachery, bound them, and covered them with a platform on which the Mongol chieftains ate a victory banquet while their aristocratic prisoners died of suffocation (1223).

"The Mongols retired to Mongolia and busied themselves with the conquest of China while the Russian princes resumed their fraternal wars.

"In 1237 the Mongols returned under Batu, a great nephew of Jenghiz Khan. They were 500,000 strong and nearly all mounted. They came around the northern end of the Caspian, put the Volga Bulgars to the sword and destroyed Bolgar, their capaital.

"Baru sent a message to the Prince of Ryazan:-'If you want peace, give us the tenth of your goods.' He answered:-'When we are dead, you may have the whole.' Ryazan asked the principalities for help. They refused it. It fought bravely and lost the whole of its goods.

"The irresistible Mongols sacked and razed all the towns of Ryazan, swept into Suzdalia, routed its army, burned Moscow and besieged Vladimir. The nobles had themselves tonsured and hid in the cathedral as monks. They died when the cathedral and all the city were given to the flames.

"Suzdal, Rostov, and a multitude of villages in the principality were burned to the ground (1238). The Mongols moved on toward Novgorod. Turned back by thick forests and swollen streams, they ravaged Chernigov and Pereyaslavl, and reached Kiev. They sent envoys asking for surrender. The Kievans killed the envoys. The Mongols crossed the Dnieper, overrode a weak resistance, sacked the city, and killed many thousands.

"When Giovanni de Piano Carpina saw Kiev six years later, he described it as a town of 200 cottages and the surrounding terrain as dotted with skulls. The Russian upper and middle classes had never dared to arm the peasants or the city populace. When the Mongols came the people were helpless to defend themselves and were massacred or enslaved at the convenience of the conquerors."

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. (Amendment II, U.S. Constitution.)

Robby

kiwi lady
December 5, 2005 - 06:58 pm
Robby unless you keep a rocket launcher under your bed and a bomb disposal unit a pistol or hunting rifle will be useless in the type of warfare we see today. Besides its terrorism that is the biggest threat today and I believe it is biological warfare that may be our undoing.

Fifi le Beau
December 5, 2005 - 07:58 pm
Robby you asked if Russia was more Asian in an article about Iran and Russia.

Although both countries have Asian citizens, the leadership and majority of the people have not been Asian.

Russia seems to have been ruled mainly by those of European or Caucasian descent.

The Persian people came down to present day Iran from the north through southern Russia. Here is an excerpt from the encyclopedia.

The speakers of Iranian languages may have migrated into that part of Asia as early as 1500 B.C. Presumably they were originally a nomadic tribe who filtered down through the Caucasus to the Iranian plateau. They apparently subjugated peoples already there and mingled with them, but their dominance of particular areas is recorded in the place names Parsua and Parsumash. The Assyrian rulers were by the 9th cent. B.C. sending expeditions against them, and the recurrence of those campaigns is evidence of the strength of the early Persians.

So the Russians and the ancient Persians may have more in common than neighborhoods, since many may have originated in the same area.

The Mongols have been reduced to the lowest jobs in the countries where they stayed. In Afghanistan they haul away the garbage and clean the streets, which most of the time is an open sewer and garbage strewn according to journalist there.

It is one thing to invade a country like Russia and devastate the areas they encountered, but it is quite something else to hold that territory and rule all the country. The Mongols and other Asians may one day rule but looking at the ruling body politic now, I don't see them.

Fifi

mabel1015j
December 5, 2005 - 09:45 pm
I to like to see these beautiful structures, but i to think of the slaves/serfs who had to built them and the tax money that was coerced from the people of the country when i see them.

Wow! Robby, that list was an impressive compilation, loved it.....jean

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2005 - 03:55 am
Fifi, you say:-"Russia seems to have been ruled mainly by those of European or Caucasian descent."

Is that the same as saying that Russia is a European nation?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2005 - 04:17 am
"The Mongols advanced into Central Europe, won and lost battles, returned through Russia ravaging, and on a branch of the Volga built a city, Sarai, as the capital of an independent community known as the Golden Horde.

"Thence Batu and his successors kept most of Russia under domination for 140 years. The Russian princes were allowed to hold their lands but on condition of annual tribute -- and an occasional visit of homage over great distances -- to the khan of the Horde, or even to the Great Khan in Mongolian Karakorum. The tribute was colleced by the princes as a head tax that fell with cruel equality upon rich and poor and those who could not pay were sold as slaves.

"The princes resigned themselves to Mongol mastery for it protected them from social revolt. They joined the Mongols in attacking other peoples, even Russian principalities.

"Many Russians married Mongols and certain features of Mongolian physiognomy and character may have entered the Russian stock. Some Russians adopted Mongol ways of speech and dress.

"Made a dependency of an Asiatic power, Russia was largely severed from European civilization.

"The absolutism of the khan united with that of the Byzantine emperors to beget the 'Autocrat of All the Russias' in later Muscovy.

"Recognizing that they could not keep Russia quiet by force alone, the Mongol chieftains made peace with the Russian Church, protected her possessions and personnel, exempted them from taxation, and punished sacrilege with death. Grateful or compelled, the Church recommended Russian submission to the Mongol masters and publicly prayed for their safety.

"To find security amid alarms, thousands of Russians became monks, gifts were showered upon religious organizations, and the Russian Church became immensely rich amid the general poverty.

A spirit of submissiveness was developed in the people and opened a road to centuries of despotism. Nevertheless it was Russia, bending under the Mongol whirlwind, that stood as a vast moat and trench protecting most of Europe from Asiatic conquest. All the fury of that human tempest spent itself upon the Slavs -- Russians, Bohemians, Moravians, Poles -- and the Magyars.

"Western Europe trembled but was hardly touched. Perhaps the rest of Europe could go forth toward political and mental freedom toward wealth, luxury, and art because for over two centuries Russia remained beaten, humbled, stagnant, and poor."

Russian literature is so different from that of Western Europe. The sadness and submissiveness shows. But until this point I never realized the influence of the Mongols.

Robby

Hats
December 6, 2005 - 05:34 am
Fifi

Thank you for the link to the Catherine Palace. What a magnificent place!!

I am behind in reading the posts of Russia. I can't wait to read the other posts.

Hats
December 6, 2005 - 05:41 am
After the Amber Room had been taken to Germany, it was, supposedly, destroyed. If the Amber Room was burnt or in another way destroyed, won't archaeologists finally retrieve it? Are there a certain amount of years that must pass before archaeologists can begin digging for relics from the past?

I have never seen a room like that Amber Room. It hurts the eyes!

____________________________________________________________________

At a much, much younger age, some friends and I went to the movies to see 'Tara Bulba.' I wanted to go because Yul Bryner starred in the movie. I just loved him being in control and riding a horse.

Now I wonder is Tara Bulba about Mongols? Does anybody remember the movie? Is it 'Taras Bulba' or 'Tara Buba?' I may have the spelling wrong.

Rich7
December 6, 2005 - 07:50 am
Taras Bulba was a fictional character, much like King Arthur. He was supposedly a Ukranian cossack who fought to drive out invaders like the Turks, Poles and Mongols.

Kahn Batu was a real life Mongol, and Grandson to the great Genghis Kahn.

The Mongols, just for the fun of it, would periodically sweep through what is now Russia and proceed to rape, plunder and pillage with impunity. It was much like the twentieth century story "Hand a rifle to a German and he will immediately begin marching to Paris."

Rich

Hats
December 6, 2005 - 08:14 am
Wow! Rich, thanks!

Hats
December 6, 2005 - 08:15 am
Your description of the Mongols reminds me of the stories about the Vikings.

Bubble
December 6, 2005 - 08:20 am
Your description reminds me of the story Michael Strogoff by Jules Verne. In case you feel like rereading it:

http://www.mastertexts.com/index.php?PageName=TitleDetails&ID=1541

MeriJo
December 6, 2005 - 10:51 am
Years ago I learned that the area east of the Ural Mountains was mostly populated by those of European origins and that those people living east of the Ural Mountains were mostly Asian or of Mongolian ancestry.

Russia expanded its rule east to the Pacific and the people in those territories remained mostly true to their origins - Asian. Today, many of those territories are independent and Russia remains that land farther west and adjacent to and part of the continent of Europe. Putin (Russia) does not govern the other countries. Each has its own president or leader. Putin does seem to influence them and impose some of his ideas. This is a struggle.

The land associated in one's mind as that large expanse of land in the north of Europe and Asia includes previous Soviet Republics which have now formed their own governments.

MeriJo
December 6, 2005 - 11:13 am
A quick trip out of town on a double-decker bus takes you to the fountains of the Summer Palace at Petrodvorets, and just south of the city lays Pushkin and Pavlovsk, the home of the Palace of Catherine the Great. In St. Petersburg itself is an amazing collection of art galleries, museums and concert halls.

Although in our western way of thinking we deplore the restoration work and, indeed, even the original building of these magnificent places by serfs, peasants and other poor people, imagining their abusive masters to have milked every ounce of strength from their labors - we must realize that the nobles would not have had the skills nor the stamina to have built these places. The workmen - though poor - certainly must have had deep satisfaction in seeing their handiwork.

After all, the czar who built the railroad from Moscow to St. Petersburg drew a straight line on the map indicating the route of that train. No matter that people may have had their houses in that path, nor that there may have been ravines and rivers to cross - all this minutiae was left up to the engineers and workmen building that railroad to solve. This particular Czar Nicholas had absolute rule over his land and he had so ordered.

Malryn (Mal)
December 6, 2005 - 11:48 am

Why is the Palace of Catherine, and the sweat and blood and one-sided power it represents, any different from the majesty of St. Patrick's Cathedral on Fifth Avenue in New York, with starving homeless at its feet, and the newer temples erected to the god of Mammon and seen even in remote corners like on this small mountain in the town of 2500 people where I live, which the serfs and peasants of today built and call Walmart?

Mal

Rich7
December 6, 2005 - 11:50 am
MeriJo,

I also visited the beautiful Summer Palace at Petroverts.

On the way out of St. Petersburg we drove up a street that had a sign posted on the side of a building. The sign had been there since WWII, and the people of the city carefully watch over it to this day. It said something to the effect that this side of the street is not safe when the city is being shelled by the enemy.

Also further out into the country on the way to Petroverts, you drive past a monument put up by the Russian people at the place where the German army was stopped during the siege of Leningrad.

At Petroverts, people in the street were selling everything you can imagine, but you had to be careful. Several people tried to sell me what they called "good Russian caviar." I didn't buy any, and good thing, too, because I learned later that much of the street "caviar" is really frog's eggs. I did find some good buys on old Communist memorabilia (sp?) (Army hats, Lenin lapel pins, Soviet flag pins, etc.).

In the Summer Palace, they had many older women (called in slang, "babushkas" like the head scarfs which they all wear) as sort of guards of the building and art. They all carried short slender sticks, and if you touched anything or leaned against, say, a door frame, they would give you a gentle tap with one of their sticks and scold you in Russian. I bet years ago such an infraction brought you more than a gentle tap with that stick.

Rich

mabel1015j
December 6, 2005 - 12:11 pm
Or wasn't there one? I'm looking for my college Russian history text book. It's probably packed away in the attic. But, i'm having problems picturing what "Russia" we're talking about.

Right on, Mal!......I know, I know, I hate that phrase too, but it seemed to fit my emotional response to her comments. Yes, I know all the positives about the people using their skills and having jobs and the beauty we now have to look at, - or the low prices that Walmart brings - but it's depressing the way people have behaved toward each other thoughtout time and i keep hoping that 21st century people will behave better, (sigh)......jean

Justin
December 6, 2005 - 02:07 pm
The novels of Dostoyevsky are full of characters who express sadness and submissiveness as principal attributes. They are victims of the social system. Tolstoy's people are similarly depicted. They are all small people caught in a larger context. Sometimes the weather is overwhelming. Other times the landscape is overpowering. Even in Zhivago, a recent Russian novel, the snow and the railroad are overpowering. In the movie, the monumentality of the train and relentlessness of the snow minimizes the human figures and contributes to the image of human submissiveness.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 6, 2005 - 02:59 pm
Justin in Canada winter is a war we have to fight relentlessly every year for 4 to 6 months. Just to stay standing up in howling subzero temperature or icy ground requires stamina and determination. All else seems so trivial compared with this. No wonder no conquerors could ever win a Russian battle, they have a powerful natural defense, winter.

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2005 - 03:52 pm
RUSSIA TODAY for those who have the money.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2005 - 06:28 pm
The Balkan Flux

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2005 - 06:41 pm
"At an alien distance the Balkans are a mountainous mess of political instability and intrigue, of picturesque subtlety and commercial craft, of wars, assassinations, and pogroms.

"But to the native Bulgar, Rumanian, Hungarian, or Yugoslav his nation is the product of a thousand years' struggle to win independence from encompassing empires, to maintain a unique and colorful culture, to express the national character, uninhibited in architecture, dress, poetry, music, and song.

"For 168 years Bulgaria, once so powerful under Krum and Simeon, remained subject to Byzantium.

"In 1186 the discontent of the Bulgar and Vlach (Wallachian) population found expression in two brothers, John and Peter Asen, who possessed that mixture of shrewdness and courage which the situation and their countrymen reuired.

"Summoning the people of Trnovo to the church of St. Demetrius, they persuaded them that the saint had left Greek Salonika to make Trnovo his home and that under his banner Bulgaria could regain liberty. They succeeded and amiably divided the new empire between them, John ruling at Trnovo, Peter at Preslav.

"The greatest monarch of their line and in all Bulgarian history, was John Asen II. He not only absorbed Thrace, Macedonia, Epirus, and Albania. He governed with such justice that even his Greek subjects loved him. He pleased the popes with allegiance and monastic foundations. He supported commerce, literature, and art with enlightened laws and patronage. He made Trnovo one of the best adorned cities of Europe and raised Bulgaria in civilization and culture to a level with most of the nations of his time.

"His successors did not inherit wisdom. Mongol invasions disordered and weakened the state and in the fourteenth century it succumbed first to Serbia and then to the Turks."

Perhaps as we read this section, we may begin to better understand what happened not too long ago in Yugoslavia.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 6, 2005 - 06:51 pm
What is going on in the BALKANS these days?

Robby

Fifi le Beau
December 6, 2005 - 07:21 pm
Robby's #212 from Durant......

This post on the Mongol invasion of Russia and how the rulers and church reacted seemed a good prediction for the future revolt of the Russian people against their rulers and church. It is amazing that it took them so long.

Durant writes The princes resigned themselves to Mongol mastery for it protected them from social revolt. They joined the Mongols in attacking other peoples, even Russian principalities.

Recognizing they could not keep Russia quiet by force alone, the Mongol chieftains made peace with the Russian church, protected her possessions and personel, exempted them from taxation, and punished sacrilege with death. Grateful or compelled the church recommended Russian submission to the Mongol masters and publicly prayed for their safety. The Russian church became immensely rich amid the general poverty.


So there you have it. The Russian leaders and the Church saving themselves and throwing their people to the whims of the Mongols. Many years later the leaders and the church will pay for these acts and other crimes against their own people.

When Durant first wrote of the invasion of the Mongols and their march toward Europe he gave a description of the Mongol that I have been unable to find. It was a stark description, and it was easy to see why they were feared. At least the Viking looked familiar, but the Mongol could have been from another world to them.

Though Durant doesn't mention it, the Mongols did not act alone and it is doubtful they could have accomplished what they did without the Turks who were their allies. The Golden Horde was a mixture of Turks and Mongols, with the Mongols ruling.

They set up their encampment in a 'golden' tent in Sarai on the lower Volga. They later moved upstream a way and set up another camp which became a city also named Sarai near what is called Volgagrad today.

Looking at an Atlas of today Kazakstan is almost directly west and only separated from Mongolia by a sliver of China. That and all the other 'Stans' in the area hold most of these Turk/Mongol invaders south of Russia.

Here is a short article and a map which shows where the Turk/Mongol duo held sway at the height of their power. Click on the small map at the left to see the city of Sarai in both locations and the area they covered for a time.

Turk/Mongol invasion

Fifi

MeriJo
December 6, 2005 - 08:23 pm
There is danger in comparing oranges and apples when it comes to buildings and the poor outside their doorsteps. There are many variables in the many lives of those poor who stand outside that church door or those palace gates. What brought those poor there? They have an instinct, I think, or a faint memory that at the church door they would receive help and so at the palace gates.

There is not a way of gathering up all the poor and herding them to a place of safety or a place where there is food and shelter. Each poor individual - even he/she who is mentally deficient or ill - has that internal will to do what he/she wants to do or what he/she sees fit to do.

This is a recent comparison - that, of wondering why a beautiful building may have been a waste of money in view of the many poor. Many poor in times now past looked more to individual harshness by a parent, guardian, employer or a government authority for their plight, and others just believed they were unlucky.

Many poor in those days looked with understanding that employment was being given in the building of those structures. In Communist Russia, the people were told the palace was theirs that they were rebuilding. In the palace employment, warmth and a future could be had. The palaces literally gleam in their cleanliness and orderly ambience. In the church's parochial organization, the poor would find assistance, food, shelter, clothing and even counseling with regard to health, education and work - even legal assistance. These substantial structures offered help to the poor and still do.

There will always be poor people - unfortunate people and ill people. Certain facilities provide for them if families cannot or will not.

Some facilities appear grander than others of the same kind. Money for a new church is usually collected in full before construction - with maybe money for an organ or chandeliers awaiting further contributions. Palaces are another story. Nevertheless, the presence of such handsome buildings do nourish that asthetic sense in all of us rich or poor or in-between.

Traude S
December 6, 2005 - 08:35 pm
Another word about Russia, if I may.

An excellent political map can be found at
http://www.mapsofworld.com/russia-political-map.htm

Traude S
December 6, 2005 - 09:01 pm
The vastness of Russia and the now independent states, which once were made up the Soviet Union, can be appreciated from the political map linked in my previous post. The north to south extension (Baltic and Arctic Sea to Black Sea) have been mentioned before, but scroll to the right to see how far east the territory extends.

ROBBY, regarding your specific question in an earlier post, the Asian part of the Soviet Union was always much larger in territory, more populous with different ethnicities.

To the best of my knowledge, the center of influence, the origin of the revolution in 1917, and the governing body within the now defunct Soviet Union has always been Russia. (The Mongols were invaders.) It is Russia that remains influential and is the focus of world attention.

The Ural Mountains form a natural (but not a political) dividing line, European Russia, if one chooses to call it that, is to the west of the Ural Mts. and Asia to the east. A territorial map would show that more clearly.

Hats
December 6, 2005 - 10:49 pm

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2005 - 03:02 am
That map is tremendous, Traude. Russia is gigantic!!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2005 - 03:54 am
"In 1159 the Zhupan (Chieftain) Stephen Nemanya brought the various Serb clans and district under one rule and in effect founded the Serb kingdom which his dynasty governed for 200 years.

"His son Sava served the nation as archbishop and statesman and became one of its most revered saints. The country was still poor and even the royal palaces were of wood. It had a flourishing port, Ragusa (now Dubrovnik) but this was an independent city-state which in 1221 became a Venetian protectorate.

"During these centuries Serbian art, Byzantine in origin, achieved a style and excellence of its own. In the monastery church of St. Panteleimon at Nerez the murals reveal a dramatic realism unusual in Byzantine painting and anticipate by a century some methods of treatment once thought original to Duccio and Giotto. Amid these and other Serbian murals of the twelfth or thirteenth century appear royal portraits individualizd beyond any known Byzantine precedent.

"Medieval Serbia was moving toward a high civilization when heresy and persecution destroyed the national unity that might have withstood the Turkish advance.

"Bosnia, too, after its medieval zenith under the Ban (King) Kulin was weakened by religious disputes and in 1254 fell subject to Hungary."

Serbia -- Bosnia -- both terms regularly appearing in today's news.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2005 - 04:09 am
Brief article from NY Times:-

THE HAGUE: TRIBUNAL JAILS ONE, FREES 2 IN TRIAL OF KOSOVO ALBANIANS

The United Nations war crimes tribunal handed down verdicts in its first trial of Kosovo Albanians, a commander and two lower-ranking members of the former Kosovo Liberation Army, a guerrilla movement, who were accused of torturing and killing prisoners at a camp in 1998. The commander, Fatmir Limaj, who later became a politician, was acquitted and released, along with a co-defendant, Isak Musliu, The third defendant, Haradin Bala, was convicted and sentenced to 13 years in prison. The acquittals were greeted with celebrations in Pristina, the capital of Kosovo, which technically remains a part of the Yugoslav remnant known as Serbia and Montenegro but has been administered by the United Nations since 1999. Nicholas Wood

Malryn (Mal)
December 7, 2005 - 04:20 am

MERIJO, you and I come from different sides of Reality Street. When you're really poor and you're hungry, and there's no place to turn, you don't think about aesthetics.. If you notice the ostentation of the rich, it is with bitterness and a terrible sense of the unrighteousness of this greedy world.

The needs of men and women and children go on whether there is wood for heat or food to eat. Russia's climate is harsh and unyielding. If people didn't die of starvation, they froze to death.

I can see why Russia produced men like Lenin and Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. I can understand why there was a Russian revolution and Communism later.

When you're poor and nobody cares if you live or die, you get fed up. You can't take any more, and with what little strength you have left, you hit back at the HAVES as hard as you can.

There will always be poor people, you say. I ask why. The holy man to whom that Fifth Avenue Cathedral is dedicated would ask the same thing.

Mal

MeriJo
December 7, 2005 - 12:07 pm
Mal:

Respectfully here, I am well aware of poverty from several sources, and I agree that we may come from different sides of reality street. I am sorry if your experience was unhappy and unpleasant. Being without is not a good situation for any length of time.

As a child, I recall my father preparing boxes of food from his little grocery store to give to the poorer members of our family, my mother prepared wonderful Italian meals for the hoboes who came to the door for food, and I recall her sewing suits and dresses for the poorer members of our family. Knowing them both, I know that they helped others not in the family.

As a public school teacher, I taught in the poorest county - an agricultural area - in California, if not the country, and I recall visiting students at their homes of which one lacked a door to their house. Most of my students were children of migrant workers and our school district provided free mid-morning drinks of orange juice and free lunches.

As a girl, I helped the nuns during the summer at St. Patrick's Parish in Los Angeles on the South Side - the children who came there for care and catechism and sewing classes often wore a rope for a belt to their trousers and mismatched shoes. This was during the Depression.

Today, my town in this Central Valley - and it is not alone among towns here - provide many services for the poor. When I was healthy and younger, I was one of those volunteers - both at the community level and in my parish.

There are poor people who develop an attitude of defeat and no hope. I encountered this as a teacher for over twenty years. It takes day to day nurturing to give hope and it takes a day to day provision of positive success and encouragement to little ones to have them grow away from this attitude. We, as teachers, hope to succeed. It is very difficult because each year we would receive a new crop of youngsters, immigrant and migrant, where we would need to begin all over again.

I need to add that many of the families of the well-to-do growers and ranchers participated with the school and community to assist the poor workers in their employ.

Perhaps, it is the western sense of hospitality or that this area has attracted altruistic people, but many of us have seen some of our students succeed and many of our families improve their lot in life.

I think it is my personality, too. I have always pushed for positive results and it is why I may have been chosen to teach those little ones with discipline and learning problems. I had small classes because of this, and I made every effort to make the classroom as cheerful a learning environment as possible and a place where the children felt comfortable. By the way, I taught most years in converted army barracks buildings positioned alongside very old brick school buildings.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 7, 2005 - 02:38 pm
When most everybody around us lost their position, their savings, their homes and even proper winter clothing, some never lost their courage or their integrity, they still taught their children the good manners to receive charity graciously. Christian charitable organizations saved many people from starving for 7 long years until the war started.

The church was respected and their effort to help the poor recognized and appreciated. The poor didn't see the church as ostentatious, but as a beautiful building and a refuge in times of trouble.

Church was a place where you had to dress in your best clothes a sign of respect for what it represented. What went on outside of the immediate neighborhood was known to only the few who could afford a newspaper and a radio. The have nots were ghettoized and ignorant about how the haves lived. There was very little crime, doors were kept unlocked. The nuns were providing a good education to every child in whatever financial situation the family lived equally and for free.

What brought this on I wonder, perhaps it is Robby's link about an ad for a car.

Justin
December 7, 2005 - 04:02 pm
Every where we have gone in this history of civilization since the death of Jesus and the birth of Christianity, we have come upon the negative effects of clerical activity. In Medieval Serbia, Durant reports, heresy and persecution destroyed national unity and contributed to losses in their defense against the Turks. These evils seem to pass unnoticed among us.Yet,they persist in a slightly different form today. Are we to learn nothing from history. Are we doomed to continue to be abused because the adherents admire the solemnity of buildings and the abusers appear as gentle authority figures, who sometimes help the poor, for a price. The catechism seems to come with every handout.

Mal, is there any chance you might find copies of the murals at Saint Panteleimon in Nerez. It would be intresting to see how they anticipate Giotto and Duccio.

MeriJo
December 7, 2005 - 05:59 pm
Justin:

In a recent excerpt from Durant here, he writes of a "theocracy of myth" indicating Christianity, yet he knew that "theocracies of myths" existed since man first began to walk upright.

He has also noted that there was an exchange of power in the beginnings of civilization between religious power and secular power. One needs to develop an objective approach to these swings of the pendulum of power.

In the end it is the individual who counts - especially today in a first world country. Bitterness and rancor over past events take time to mull over and in the end are non-productive because the conditions that created them no longer exist. Rather, one look to spend that time recognizing situations and events that can allow one to be positive, productive and exemplary.

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2005 - 06:34 pm
The Border States

robert b. iadeluca
December 7, 2005 - 06:45 pm
"As, in a limitless universe, any point may be taken as center, so, in the pageant of civilization and states, each nation, like each soul, interprets the drama of history or life in terms of its own role and character.

"North of the Balkans lay another medley of peoples -- Bohemians, Poles, Lithuanians, Livonians, Finns, and each, with life giving pride, hung the world upon its own national history.

"In the earlier Middle Ages the Finns, distant relatives of the Magyars and the Huns, dwelt along the upper Volga and Oka. By the eighth century they had migrated into the hardy scenic land known to outsiders as Finland and to Finns as Suomi, the Land of Marsh.

"Their raids upon the Scandinavian coasts induced the Swedish King Eric IX to conquer them in 1157. At Uppsala Eric left a bishop with them as a germ of civilization. The Finns killed Bishop Henry and then made him their patron saint.

"With quiet heroism they cleared the forests, drained the marshes, channeled their '10,000 lakes,' gathered furs, and fought the snow.

Isn't that first sentence here almost like poetry? Try reading it two or three times. I am constantly in awe of Durant's skill with words. And just think of each nation "hanging the world upon its own national history."

Then, of course, there is the philosophical aspect of what he is saying, aside from the literary beauty.

Robby

Justin
December 7, 2005 - 07:36 pm
Merijo; You are asking us to be objective, to look through the microscope of time, to note what is seen, and to learn nothing from the observation. I can only criticize. I cannot call Benedict and say "Listen, Ben, you're doing it again. Try treating all people as you would wish to be treated. Jesus thought it was the right approach. Why don't you?"

Justin
December 7, 2005 - 07:44 pm
I agree Robby, that paragraph is outstanding. "any point may be taken as a center and from that point a person (soul) may interpret history. I think Merijo is saying something similar. But there are patterns in history that repeat. They stab us in the eye and they cannot be ignored except at our peril. It is better to understand the nature of the pattern and the problem and then to postulate a solution than to color it green.

Fifi le Beau
December 7, 2005 - 08:27 pm
Mal, that was an insightful post as usual. How refreshing to have someone who sweeps all the minutia aside and gets straight to the point.

Justin, you have a way of saying the right thing at the right time, but 'color it green'? When I read that sentence my brain said 'white wash' while my eyes read 'green'.

Fifi

Justin
December 7, 2005 - 09:52 pm
Fifi: White wash would have been more appropriate but "green" is the symbol for "GO". One says "All systems are green" meaning "everything looks good. Push the button. The missiles are ready." To be honest,I was looking for words for "harmless and beneficent."

3kings
December 7, 2005 - 10:02 pm
Justin writes : "Every where we have gone in this history of civilization since the death of Jesus and the birth of Christianity, we have come upon the negative effects of clerical activity. In Medieval Serbia, Durant reports, heresy and persecution destroyed national unity and contributed to losses in their defense against the Turks."

Surely,'negative effects of clerical activity' or the Muslim equivalent of it, was prevalent among the turks, as among the 'Christians'?

Not that I wish to let the 'Christians' off Justin's hook, but I think we should realise that where ever 'Churchianity' in any of its guises, is fastened upon a people, the great philosophical aspects of religion are the very first casualties.

It has been said, "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been tried and found difficult, and then quietly ignored."

Merijo has embraced her Church with whole hearted devotion, and, at great personal cost, has spent a life time living by the teachings of Christ. So too, has Mal, who comes to the same actions and sacrifices, but from a different direction. They both are an inspiration to me. Looking back at my life, I wish I had achieved one tenth as much.... Trevor

Justin
December 7, 2005 - 10:59 pm
Trevor: "Churchianity" is a fine new word for us to use. It is equally applicable to Islam as to Christianity. It has an organizational connotation.

I realize, I tend to view religion as human activity while others see it as a spiritual activity. I think that distinction tends to inhibit our ability to recognize wrong doing. When things go well the activity is spiritual. When things go badly we say they are human failings. However, in truth, all religious activity is human.

Justin
December 7, 2005 - 11:09 pm
Bubble: Is there any element of theocracy in the Israeli constitution? Does the constitution mandate preference of any kind for Jews? What is meant by the term "Jewish State"?

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2005 - 03:17 am
Any comments regarding the Finns as Durant explains them to us in Post 344?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2005 - 03:56 am
Here is a MAP with some info about Finland.

Robby

Bubble
December 8, 2005 - 04:30 am
Justin... I am not too knowlegeable, I came here as a new immigrant and never wondered much, but here are two sites with the text of the proclamation of independance.

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/declare.htm

http://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/megilat_eng.htm

"The State of Israel will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations. "

All this is true as long as it does not conflict with the security of Israel. Israeli Arabs and Druzes and Christians have the same rights to social security, health services, unemployment claims, vote, representation in the Knesset, etc. BUT Arabs will not be accepted to do the military service of 3y like the other Israelis. Druzes have the choice to do their military service; most do and are well appreciated.

Rich7
December 8, 2005 - 07:33 am
Robby,

I, too, like Durant's wording about how we each perceive our place in the universe.

If you go into an American classroom and note the world map on the wall, it will show America as the center of the map, with the rest of the world either to the right or left of the "center of the universe," America. Go into a British classroom, and Great Britain is in the center of the map with the rest of the world sort of orbiting around that great center of wisdom and culture, Britain.

How are world maps centered in New Zealand and Israel?

Rich

Rich7
December 8, 2005 - 07:45 am
Durant's discussion of the Finns reminds me of something I heard some time ago and have hever heard or read of since; namely that Finns are somehow distantly related to the Turks. Making them ethnically very different from their Scandinavian neighbors. I've asked people from Finland about it and nobody seems to know, although some have told me that there are similarities between the Turkish and Finnish languages.

Durant mentions that Finland was first settled by wandering Magyars. There may be a Turkish-Hungarian-Finnish connection that somehow got Finland settled by Turkish speaking people.

Rich

Malryn (Mal)
December 8, 2005 - 08:23 am

Mural at Nerezi


Saint Panteleimon

Bubble
December 8, 2005 - 08:37 am
Rich, for us the world map has America on the left, Europe and Africa under it center, and Australia far right.

Traude S
December 8, 2005 - 10:19 am
Durant was highly articulate, eloquent and had a wonderful ear for words. His narrative reveals his flair for the lyrical too, and all of this is admirable.

But in a story of civilization one also looks for facts. And what we get here is distinctly Durant's version.,

For example, in a recent quotation Durant alleges that the Romans "shunned" the established pantheon of Greek gods. I respectfully submit that "shunned" is not really appropriate.

Because the historic truth is that the Romans ADOPTED the Greek pantheon of gods and goddesses part and parcel and simply renamed the gods and goddesses:

i.e. JUPITER for Zeus; JUNO for Hera, NEPTUNE for Poseidon, VENUS for Aphrodite, MARS for Aries, and on and on. For more, check See Mythology by Edith Mamilton.

Rich7
December 8, 2005 - 10:21 am
Thank you, Bubble. You've helped make Durant's point.

Mal, The image of that mural is beautiful. Did I read right, that it had been painted over by some klutz, but later restored?

Traude, I had read that Durant quote differently, and you got me wondering. So I went back and re-read it. His language is a little confusing, but I think Durant was saying that the Romans shunned the philosophies of Greece (Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, etc.), but re-introduced the (Greek) gods. (Under different names as you pointed out.)

Rich

MeriJo
December 8, 2005 - 12:23 pm
This shows how truly complex ancestry is even in seemingly older populations of Europe.

Where Do Finns Come From?

http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/where_do.html

MeriJo
December 8, 2005 - 12:34 pm
Justin:

I can only guess to what you are referring and yet, Pope Benedict speaks only to Catholics regarding faith and morals. There are non-Catholics who agree so there is a widespread agreement on some points.

Pope Benedict - any Pope, for that matter - makes a pronouncement about anything, only after long consultation with others who may be authoritative on whatever subject the pronouncement refers.

But still - only on matters of faith and morals for Catholics - Therefore, it is curious that non-Catholics who may not have the same background or knowledge of a subject, its rationale and importance, choose to point out seeming errors in judgment as pronounced by the Pope.

I am not referring to medieval Popes - Many of them were indeed in obvious error.

Usually things that refer to Church law may be altered or eliminated sooner or later - the "no-meat-on-Friday law", for example, has been eliminated for most of the year except Lent.

Rich7
December 8, 2005 - 12:35 pm
Thanks, MeriJo for the link to the Finns' origins.

Gosh that was complicated!

Anyway, there was no mention of a Turkish connection, so I guess I was wrong there. No mention of the Magyars, either, which Durant cited. So I'm in good company.

Rich

Fifi le Beau
December 8, 2005 - 12:56 pm
I meant to post this when the discussion was on the Russian railroads, but got side tracked. It shows that the first Russian railroads were built with the expertise of two American brothers from Baltimore.

In 1843 Tsar Nicholas 1 invited George W. Whistler (half-brother of the artist James McNeill Whistler) to be the consulting engineer to the proposed railway between Moscow and St. Petersburg. Whistler asked Ross Winans a leading engineer and inventor to take charge of the Mechanical department, however Winans declined the invitation but sent his sons William and Thomas instead. The Winans brothers' contract was to equip the new Russian railway with locomotives and rolling stock and in doing so they established workshops at Alexandrosky, near St. Petersburg.

The first railway in Russia was completed in 1837 between St. Petersburg and the Imperial Palace at Tsarskoe Selo with a branch line to Pavlovsk. The railway between St. Petersburg and Moscow which William and Thomas Winans began in 1843 and finished in 1851, the longest single railway line in the world. Thomas Winans returned to Baltimore with his Russian wife, but William Winans stayed on until 1862 to complete existing contracts. In 1866 he returned to Russia under a new eight year contract but the Russian government took over the family's interests in 1868 in return for the payment of a large bonus.

Fifi

Justin
December 8, 2005 - 01:47 pm
Merijo: What I have in mind is the exclusion of homosexuals from the clergy. I am sure he, Pope Benedict, sees that as a question of faith and morals but I see it as a breach of Jesus' committment to loving one's neighbor. It is an expression of the essential difference between Catholicism and Christianity in general. Catholicism is what the Pope says it is. Christianity is what Christ said it is.

Justin
December 8, 2005 - 02:09 pm
Mal; Thank you for the murals at St. Panteleimon. They are indeed precursors of Giotto. You will recall that during the Byzantine period images of saints and the holy family were idealized in an existential two dimensional format. Early 12th century painting had that characteristic. Theatrical and dramatic groupings of saints in a biblical tableau was something new. The Nerezi artists not only created narrative drama but they added emotion to the characters to enhance the message of the biblical drama. Notice how the Virgin cradles her son's head in the Lamentation while tears appear. Notice the way the attendants touch the body of the dead Christ. That is new in the 12th century.

Giotto, a century later expanded the concept by introducing three dimensional volume. He too shows feeling in his characters but not as effectively as the Nerezi artists.

These are defining moments in the history of art.

Justin
December 8, 2005 - 02:23 pm
Rich: Great art works often lie beneath surface paintings. When space is limited there is often competition for it's use. Parishioners often get tired of seeing the same old thing Sunday after Sunday and so oneday someone will be hired to paint over the old image with something new and fresh.

Painters, many times, have limited canvas or wood surface to work with and so they use what's available over and over again. Choice Rembrandts have been found by uncovering the paintings of others. X-ray techniques have been very helpful in this effort.

robert b. iadeluca
December 8, 2005 - 06:53 pm
"South of the Gulf of Finland the same ax- and spade-work was accomplished by tribes akin to the Finns -- Borussians (Prussians), Esths (Estonians), Livs (Livonians), Litva (Lithuanians), and Latvians or Lerts.

"They hunted, fished, kept bees, tilled the soil, and left letters and arts to the less vigorous posterity for whom they toiled. All but the Estonians remained pagan until the twelfth century when the Germans brought Christianity and civilization to them with fire and sword.

"Finding that Christianity was being used by the Germans as a means of infiltration and domination, the Livonians killed the missionaries, plunged into the Dvina to wash off the stain of baptism, and returned to their native gods.

"Innocent III preached a crusade against them. Bishop Albert entered the Dvina with twenty-three men-of-war, built Riga as his capital and subjected Livonia to German rule.

"Two religious military orders, the Livonian Knights and the Teutonic Knights, completed the conquest of the Baltic states for Germany, carved out vast holdings for themselves, converted the natives to Christianity, and reduced them to serfdom.

"Heartened by this success, the Teutonic Knights advanced into Russia, hoping to win at least its western provinces for Germany and Latin Christianity

"They were defeated on Lake Peipus (1242)in one of the innumerable decisive battles of history."

Your comments, please?

Robby

Justin
December 8, 2005 - 07:20 pm
Christianity is on the march again putting the chains of religion on the natives and reducing them to serfdom.Latvians, Estonians, and Finlandians, all now bear the guilt of the new sin called original. Some tried to wash it off in the Divina and by killing the missionaries but the stain stuck to them like a tattoo. The message is, "obey or be eternally damned to the fires of hell."

Do you notice the corespondance with Islam. That religion advanced in the same way ie; with fire and sword.

MeriJo
December 8, 2005 - 09:37 pm
Justin:

As in the plunging into the Dvina "to wash off the stain of original sin" - those folks did not understand that baptism leaves no stain but "washes away the stain of original sin." Baptism and original sin must have been presented to them in a draconian way or they would not have reacted as such. That was probably the reason for all the turmoil in early history.

I imagine homosexuals were accepted into the priesthood in the past or at least I have so read in an Anthony Greeley novel wherein he describes one as such

Pope Benedict has approved a policy document about this:

Pope Benedict XVI has given his approval to a new Vatican policy document indicating that men with homosexual tendencies should not be ordained as Catholic priests.

The new document-- was prepared by the Congregation for Catholic Education, in response to a request made by the late Pope John Paul II in 1994. It will take the form of an "Instruction," signed by the prefect and secretary of the Congregation: Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski and Archbishop Michael Miller.

The text, which was approved by Pope Benedict at the end of August, says that homosexual men should not be admitted to seminaries even if they are celibate, because their condition suggests a serious personality disorder which detracts from their ability to serve as ministers.

Priests who have already been ordained, if they suffer from homosexual impulses, are strongly urged to renew their dedication to chastity, and a manner of life appropriate to the priesthood.

The Instruction does not represent a change in Church teaching or policy. Catholic leaders have consistently taught that homosexual men should not be ordained to the priesthood. Pope John XXIII approved a formal policy to that effect, which still remains in effect. However, during the 1970s and 1980s, that policy was widely ignored, particularly in North America. The resulting crisis in the priesthood-- in which one prominent American commentator observed that the priesthood was coming to be seen as a "gay" profession-- prompted Pope John Paul II to call for a new study on the question.

The Congregation for Catholic Education prepared the Instruction after soliciting advice from all of the world's bishops, from psychologists, and from moral theologians. A draft of the Instruction was then circulated among the Vatican dicasteries concerned with the issue, notably including the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. (Catholic World News -Excerpt)

I had to look up the word, "dicasteries" and from what I gather from the Webster's Dictionary I have it refers to a "group of people chosen annually to serve as if hearing a court case." Then I decided to use Google.

. . . we had in mind that the traditional dicasteries and organs of the Roman Curia be made more suitable for the purposes they were meant for, that is, their share in governance, jurisdiction, and administration. For this reason, their areas of competence have been distributed more aptly among them and more distinctly delineated.

Then with an eye to what experience has taught in recent years and to the never ending demands of Church society, we reexamined the juridical form and raison d’être of existence of those organs which are rightly called "postconciliar," changing on occasion their shape and organization. We did this in order to make the work of those institutions more and more useful and beneficial, that is, supporting special pastoral activity and research in the Church which, at an ever accelerating pace, are filling pastors with concern and which with the same urgency demand timely and well thought out answers. (An excerpt from the link below.)

Dicasteries

The above reference is somewhat long, but historical.

mabel1015j
December 8, 2005 - 10:19 pm
"They hunted, fished, kept bees, tilled the soil, and left letters and arts to the less vigorous posterity for whom they toiled. All but the Estonians remained pagan until the twelfth century when the Germans brought Christianity and civilization to them with fire and sword."......... I was starting a tho't of "these folks seem to be the nicest people we've seen..........and then ......the Germans bring them "civilization!" Ah-h-h-h........jean

Justin
December 8, 2005 - 10:30 pm
Merijo: Thanks for the details however, none of the details appear to make the policy any less onerous. It is still a long way from a good neighbor policy. The recent emphasis on the policy tends to make one think the Papacy thinks there is some connection between homosexual inclinations and the perversion described as child pederasty. I have it on good authority, but Robby can contribute more to this, that there is no connection between the two. If Pope Benedict were to try to exclude pederasts his action would be understandable.

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2005 - 03:59 am
It appears that participants here prefer to stay on the topic of religion rather than the Border States, so I'll hold off on posting Durant's words until I get the word to continue.

Robby

Bubble
December 9, 2005 - 05:38 am
I received today a trilogy by Pat Barker. The opening page is the Declaration against War written during WWI by Siegfired Sassoon

http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/ltg/projects/jtap/tutorials/intro/sassoon/declaration.html

It seems so actual that I think it fits nicely here where we talk so much of wars and peace.

Rich7
December 9, 2005 - 09:41 am
Jean, I really like your post #271. I read it a couple of times because it agrees very much with the thoughts I had when reading about the pagan tribes that had settled on the Gulf of Finland. Once these people were living a wholesome life close to the earth and nature while, at the same time, beginning to explore the arts and literature. Then Christianity was brought to them by the sword, and everything changed.

Rich

MeriJo
December 9, 2005 - 09:59 am
Sorry, Justin, I guess my explanation was not enough. It's a job qualification. Once a man decides to become a priest there are certain qualifications, because it is a a life-long commitment. Holy Orders is forever even after laicization. Once a man enters major orders with a sub-deaconate, his training bears on nurturing great respect for life. There is no way to determine what one is going to do, but if concupiscence is there for a relationship with one of the male sex, it may lie hidden for years and then become overwhelming. It is then that one's children are in danger of being traumatized.

There may also be concupiscence for a relationship with the female sex, and that is an equal threat to one's children. This is another aspect of a necessary job qualification. Also, because the work of priests is so involved interpersonally with the lives of their parishioners, these young men need to be protected from this kind of temptation, too. There is no point in their being in a position to become so closely involved with children and young adults that their pysches suffer.

One of the ways to avoid sin or doing wrong is to avoid the occasion of sin. Stay out of a bar, for example, if you enjoy drinking alcoholic beverages too much.

Justin: I have not discussed religion in this much detail since I was in high school - not even in college - not even with Catholic friends and relatives. I would just as soon continue with the Story of Civilization.

Please accept my apology, Robby.

Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2005 - 10:01 am

Comment on Post #268:

"Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!"

Justin
December 9, 2005 - 02:22 pm
Mal: Thanks for chipping in.

Robby: no apologies from this quarter. Religion is the topic of this volume. Also, I thought we were talking about Finland and the Baltic States. They were blessed with Christianity and serfdom at the point of a sword. One of the unfortunate characteristics of religion, Islam and Christianity, is exclusion. The discussion about rejection of homosexuality was designed to show that the evils of exclusion continue into the modern world.

Justin
December 9, 2005 - 02:30 pm
Merijo: You don't have to act as the defender of the faith everytime we see evidence of religious wrongdoing unless you wish to respond.The discussion dealing with Islam would have been more enlightened had we had someone with your qualities participating.

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2005 - 04:36 pm
I go under the assumption that participants wish to return to Border States so we return to Durant.

"After the death of Stephen I Hungary was disturbed by pagan Magyar revolts against the Catholic kings and by the efforts of Henry III to annex Hungary to Germany.

"Andrew I defeated Henry. When the Emperor Henry IV renewed the attempt King Geza I frustrated it by giving Hungary to Pope Gregory VII and receiving it back as a papal fief. During the twelfth century rivals for the kingship nurtured feudalism by large grants of land to nobles in return for support.

"In 1222 the nobility was strong enough to draw from Andrew II a 'Golden Bull' remarkably like the Magna Carta that King John of England had signed in 1215. It denied the heritability of feudal fiefs but promised to summon a diet every year, to imprison no noble without a trial before the 'count palatine' (i.e. a count of the imperial palace) and to levy no taxes upon noble or ecclesiastical esttes.

"This royal edict, named from its golden case or seal, constituted for seven centuries a charter of liberty for the Hungarian aristocracy and enfeebled the Hungarian monarchy precisely at a time when the Mongols were preparing for Europe one of the greatest crises in its history."

A charter of liberty that lasted seven centuries. That's longer than the life of the U.S. Constitution.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2005 - 04:41 pm
Here is more info about the Hungarian GOLDEN BULL.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2005 - 04:50 pm
Here is a brief history of the MAGYARS.

Robby

MeriJo
December 9, 2005 - 05:54 pm
It certainly looks as though I am, but I translate your comments back to me as such that require clarification, Justin, because you certainly do not give me the impression that you read them as I write them. I do not know how else to respond to such a complete misinterpretation of my words. You do not need to agree with me only to understand my point of view.

Perhaps - in as much as the Finns prior to Christianity engaged in animal sacrifices and were influenced by shamans who went into trances - they had a very rich mythological theology with spirits and rock spirits, and in as much as Durant just lists things in a literary matter for effect as in a poem, it is mischievous, I think, of him to list things as such - "Christianity with fire and sword," leaving the reader without further explanation. After all, the Germanic peoples certainly were in the mood to continue to conquer in those days - I think that line was lifted right from a later verse of "Onward, Christian Soldiers". In your reference, Mal, the "foe" that Christ goes after is "evil" not another human being.

The Ancient Religion of the Finns

robert b. iadeluca
December 9, 2005 - 06:19 pm
Every so often I re-post the following which was posted at the start of The Age of Faith. This is not to imply that any one is breaking the rules -- it is merely to re-establish the ground rules.

Quoting Durant:-"The preponderant bequest of the Age of Faith was religion."

For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

"1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.
2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."
3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion. "Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

Malryn (Mal)
December 9, 2005 - 06:52 pm

MERIJO, you don't have to translate for me, honey, I've got a high school diploma!

After working in as many different kinds of churches as I have in the north, south and midwest, I've discovered that the majority of church-goers I've met do take the words of hymns and the scriptures literally, especially in the Bible belt. While working there I belted out hymns like "Turn your radio up" and "I'll fly away" to a jazzy accompaniment I played all over the piano that the congregation thought was great.

Thank you, ROBBY, for posting what you did. I for one would like to get off the religion kick and back to what Will Durant is trying to tell us.

Mal

Traude S
December 9, 2005 - 07:14 pm
With respect, I believe MeriJo's has it right in # 283 where she says, "... Durant just lists things in a literary manner for effect ..." . Well, he does, in every volume, ad infinitum , wittily and brilliant.

Justin
December 9, 2005 - 10:11 pm
Traude: Does the Finno-Ugric language group include the Finns? If the Magyars came by way of Russia, the Urals, and Iran, the Finns may have orginated in a similar source.

MeriJo
December 10, 2005 - 04:36 pm
Mal:

I was responding to your reference as though it referred to the "Christianity by fire and sword" phrase in the previous post dated sometime in the early Middle Ages. Nothing personal intended at all. I do not doubt that where you played hymns the words were taken literally.

MeriJo
December 10, 2005 - 04:48 pm
In Gavin Menzies remarkable book, "1421" the Chinese were able to navigate all around the northern territories of Greenland, Scandinavia, Finland and Russia. Global warming had occurred prior to that year and had made that area accessible to human survival. In the link I posted about the origins of the Finns - the earliest evidence appears to be from the far north of those territories. As the Finns moved southward, other peoples remained in the north.

There seems to have been many languages and different ethnicities moving southward - origins of which are little known.

I was interested in the physical description of the Magyars in the link about them, and could not help thinking what living in a far more friendly and more agriculturally healthy country as present day Hungary has done for the ancestors of these people. Think Zsa Zsa Gabor!

Rich7
December 10, 2005 - 05:05 pm
MeriJo, if "1421" is the same book I seem to remember reading reviews on, I've got to get it. The book I'm thinking of points out that China began a campaign of world exploration by sea long before the Portuguese, Spanish, Dutch and British. And in ships larger and more seaworthy that what those countries used years later!

If it weren't for a Chinese emperor precipitously ordering the project stopped and the ships destroyed, we might all be speaking Chinese, today.

Rich

Traude S
December 10, 2005 - 08:06 pm
JUSTIN, yes.
Finno-Ugric is a subfamily of Uralic languages spoken by about 25 million people in parts of northern Scandinavia, eastern Europe and northwestern Asia. It is one of two such families, the other being the Samoyed languages spoken in northwestern Siberia.

The Finno-Ugric subfamily in turn is divided into two large branches : Finnic (also called Finno-Permian or Finno-Permiak) and Ugric. Finnic contains two major languages : Finnish, spoken in Finland, and Estonian, spoken in Estonia (and the part of Estonia that was formerly a Soviet republic). Ugric contains the Hungarian language, spoken in Hungary and parts of Romania.

An excellent map showing the full north-south extension of eastern Europe from the tip of Norway can be viewed by Googling "Eastern Europe, Map" .
The following screen will show three small maps at the top. Clicking on the third , a slim, long rectangle, will bring up that map in its entirety and show the areas of several countries whose names we have heard mentioned here. The map takes into account the changes in the former Soviet Union after the fall of the wall.
(I would post a link but fear that it might be too long and cause the text to veer beyond the margin on the right. I do, however, recommend scrolling the map toward the right to behold exactly where these border states begin and end.

MAL, it is really Durant who brings up religion continuously -- and no wonder when the title of this volume contains the word Faith. Naturally the readers react. In addition, this group has eagerly checked many further details of history and geography as well as religion(s) when deemed necessary, and that is what makes a discussion ultimately rewarding.

robert b. iadeluca
December 10, 2005 - 08:16 pm
Here are the MAPS that Traude was referring to. (Yes, my sentence ended in a preposition.)

Robby

Fifi le Beau
December 10, 2005 - 08:40 pm
Here is a different take on the Gavin Menzies book "1421". All the reviews I've read by historians have panned the book for its inaccuracy and outright falsehoods.

Menzie is being sued in England for claiming this book is historical fact, and the publisher for false advertising. In an interview Menzies said that the editors of his book actually rewrote most of what he gave them. They had paid him a lot of money and needed more action to spice up the book for sales.

For fun go to the left and read Review 1 which was published in "Literary Review" London.

Book review

Fifi

Justin
December 10, 2005 - 10:08 pm
$750,000 is not much to pay for a discredited reputation. I wonder how much fight Menzies put up to protect his work. He is now saying that the editors/publishers rewrote the book. That's too bad for Menzies' name is on it.

Justin
December 10, 2005 - 10:11 pm
Thank You Traude. It's wonderful having a linguist in the discusion.

Rich7
December 11, 2005 - 05:30 am
Fifi, That's very interesting. The book may be a fraud. I read the review in your link, and pulled up a few others on my own. Like most new departures in any area, two schools of thought seem to have to developed on the issue.

It looks like Menzes' book will be relegated to the fringe, where some will stoutly defend it, and others will criticize its non conventional approach to history.

The fact that Menzes is backing off and saying that what was published are not exactly his words may be telling us something.

Rich

Rich7
December 11, 2005 - 05:33 am
Traude,

I agree with Justin. Unlike Justin, I was not aware of the extent of your linguistic skills.

What a valuable asset to this discussion!

Rich

Malryn (Mal)
December 11, 2005 - 06:01 am

TRAUDE, I gather from what you say about Durant that you have finally bought the books? I saw the whole set for sale on eBay for $20.00 as a "Buy it Now" feature, I bid on another book by Will Durant that was signed by both him and Ariel. Unfortunately, I lost the bid.

Mal

Malryn (Mal)
December 11, 2005 - 06:08 am
I'm not sure I understand the fuss about Menzies' book. It's a novel, isn't it, and therefore fiction? You wouldn't expect a fictional representation of history to be true, would you?
"fiction (fîk´shen) noun Abbr. fict.

1. a. An imaginative creation or a pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented.
b. The act of inventing such a creation or pretense.

2. A lie.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 06:20 am
"Around these Baltic states surged an ocean of Slavs.

"One group called itself Polanic -- 'people of the fields' -- and tilled the valleys of the Warthe and the Oder.

"Another, the Mazurs, dwelt along the Vistula.

"A third, the Pomorzanic ('by the sea') -- gave its name to Pomerania.

"In 963 the Polish prince Miesko I, to avoid conquest by Germany, confided Poland to the protection of the popes. Thenceforth Poland, turning its back upon the semi-Byzantine Slavdom of the East, cast in its lot with western Europe and Roman Christianity.

"Mieszko's son, Boleslav I conquered Pomerania, annexed Breslau and Cracow and made himself the first King of Poland.

"Boleslav III divided the kingdom among his four sons. The monarchy was weakened. The aristocracy parceled the land into feudal principalities and Poland fluctuated between freedom and subjection to Germany or Bohemia.

"In 1241 the Mongol avalanche came down upon the land, took Cracow, the capital, and leveled it to the ground. As the Asiatic flood receded a wave of German immigration swept into western Poland, leaving there a strong admixture of German language, laws, and blood. At the same time Boleslav V welcomed Jews fleeing from pogroms in Germany and encouraged them to develop commerce and finance.

"In 1310 King Wenceslas II of Bohemia was elected King of Poland and united the two nations under one crown."

I know very little about this part of Europe except for the little I learned during the World War II period. That's when Germany, Poland, and Russia came into my meager knowledge. And now Durant is helping me to see the historical alliances and differences and clashes among these three. And I am amazed that what is happening now was happening over a thousand years ago. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.

I see now why Roman Catholic Poland can sit right next to Russia which is Orthodox. I better understand Poland's "fluctuation between freedom and subjection." I see now why there are (were?) so many Jews in Roman Catholic Poland. I see now Poland's precarious position constantly looking with fear both toward its west and its east.

And then there is the name King Wenceslas. In a week or so, how many people will be singing his name without having the slightest idea of who he was? (Neither did I until about ten minutes ago.)

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 11, 2005 - 06:31 am
Mal I wanted to beat you to it: GOOD KING WENCESLAS, MUSIC AND LYRICS

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 06:35 am
This MAP OF POLAND gives a feeling of its being surrounded by an "ocean of Slavs."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 06:39 am
I knew one of you guys was going to do that! That's a very good link, Eloise. Be sure to read the historical comment at the very bottom.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 11, 2005 - 07:03 am

ELOISE, my mind was not on Wencesclas, it was on

MAZURS and MAZURKAS

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 11, 2005 - 07:16 am
The link doesn't open for me Mal, I would love to hear a Chopin Mazurka, didn't realize where the name came from before this.

Robby, A very long ago, I would have liked to have been born a 'guy', but not any more. (I know what you meant by that, so don't worry).

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 07:24 am
That shows your age, Eloise, and mine. There was a time when for me "guys" was masculine. However, I associate a lot with teenagers and I find that nowadays "guys" is all inclusive.

Mal's link had to do with Polish folk dances.

Robby

Bubble
December 11, 2005 - 08:10 am
"Wenceslas Saint's Day is September 28th, and he is the Patron Saint of the Czech Republic. St. Stephen's feast day was celebrated on 26th December which is why this song is sung as a Christmas carol."

I don't see the relationship Wenceslas/Stephen... and why Sep 28th becomes December 26th.

That is one carol I never heard. It must exist only in English?

Rich7
December 11, 2005 - 10:30 am
Bubble,

The way I take it is that the event described in the song takes place on the Feast of St. Stephen (Dec. 26), and as the historical footnote says, it is sung at Christmas because of the proximity of the date. Hey, also when you throw in the fact that the tune is about a king, and there's lots of snow, and someone is showing generosity and kindness to a poor stranger, it all fits the mood of the season.

I've always liked the words and music to that song. (Thanks for the link, Eloise.) And, since we've been talking about Finns, did anyone else notice in the historical footnote that the music was composed in Finland 300 years before the King Wenceslas words were added?

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 10:33 am
Aside from King Wenceslas, any comments about Durant's remarks in Post 300 regarding the Border States?

Robby

Rich7
December 11, 2005 - 10:52 am
James Michener wrote a book on Poland. I'm not sure, but I think the title was simply "Poland." He described the country as a constant victim. Poland, being a rather flat and featureless country was basically the highway that various armies over the ages used to attack others. In other words, they were not nessarily the target of somebody's army but still felt the pain of that horde charging through on the way to somewhere else.

Mal, It might be a good thing that you didn't get that Durant autographed book. I've heard that there are many occasions of misrepresented autographed material on that site.

Rich

JoanK
December 11, 2005 - 11:04 am
Poland and Russia. As I may have mentioned before, my MIL was born in a town (Brest Litovsk) that was near the border of Poland and Russia. As a family member said, it was Polish one day and Russian the next, depending on whose army had been through last. But it was Polish when MIL was a little girl.

When Dick was in College, at the height of the Cold War and the McCarthy era, he applied for a summer job, not realizing he was applying to the CIA. They asked him where his mother was from, and he answered "Poland". Unfortunately, at that time, Brest-Litofsk, renamed Brest, was in Russia!! he was called back and grilled -- "Why didn't you tell us your mother was from Russia?". he didn't have a clue what was going on, and confronted his mother. His mother didn't have a clue what was going on, and was very upset. The whole family was in an uproar.

Fortunately, I guess someone explained to the CIA, and they dropped it (of course he didn't get the job). His mother felt guilty she had cost him a job, but he was glad. For all I know, they had him on their books for years as a suspicious character.

I guess it's a wise person who knows what country they live in. (Now Brest is the capital of Belarus).

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 11:20 am
Fifi:

Thank you for the link re "1421". I could not open any of the clickables except that of the Map as the resource could not be found. Actually, Menzies cites and includes in his book several maps and comments on each. The book is amply footnoted.

There is no attribution given in the critique as to who wrote it - merely a fellow Scotsman, identified as a researcher.

In the book, Menzies, writes more than once that certain parts are speculation. He identifies each. He hopes with continued research to add the new information in a later book. He writes of inconclusive verification along with the text and at length in an afterword.

"1421" is not a novel.

Someone thought enough about it to have invested in the production of a two-part film with it as the subject. It was shown on PBS.

The following link identifies connections to a lawsuit that Fifi mentions and opinions of others. The book appears to have caused quite a stir. Knowing that he wrote inconclusively, as Menzies says himself, I still found it worth reading.

http://hnn.us/articles/18698.html

The information about the ship found in the Sacramento River was referred to U. C. Berkeley. It is so covered with silt that it will be years before it is ever unearthed, but it is apparently there.

Rich7
December 11, 2005 - 11:25 am
MeriJo, I missed something somewhere. What ship found in the Sacramento River?

Rich

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 12:25 pm
Rich 7:

In "1421" Menzies writes of a Chinese galley having been found via some sounding device in the Sacramento River. This is the only reference of the Chinese being in California.

I just went back to Fifi's link and was able to open the clickables this time. In the first attempt I made for the Maps clickable was mention of Menzies mention of the Chinese in "all of North America". I remembered the reference to California and the Chinese junk in the Sacramento River - it is near the San Francisco Bay. I got my son's copy of the book and verified from it, that, indeed, such a ship had been located - pages 203-206 in the hard-cover book. "Dr. John Furry of the Natural History Museum of Northern California first became aware of the junk twenty years ago. . . "

Apparently there is some evidence of the Chinese being on the east coast as well, but I remembered the California reference here.

In the Review 1 of Fifi's link the author, a Dr. Felipe Fernandez-Armesto, refers to the discovery of an anchor near the Palos Verdes Peninsula (southern California) - supposedly, Chinese, but nowhere in Menzies' book is there a reference to Palos Verdes. (I've been to the Palos Verdes Peninsula. Its rocky point juts out into the Pacific - I imagine it is less so now because that soil is very friable and parts of the bluff above fall into the sea from time to time.)

Fifi le Beau
December 11, 2005 - 12:28 pm
Robby #302 you say, "This 'map of Poland' gives a feeling of its being surrounded by an "ocean of Slavs."

Durant wrote #300, Around these 'Baltic states' surged an ocean of Slavs. One group called itself Polanic-(Poland).

Durant was writing about the Baltic states and then brought up the fact that they were surrounded by Slavs. He named Poland as one of those states inhabited by Slavs.

Poland, Ukraine, and western parts of Russia were Slav territory. Germany, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were not.

None of this should be important in the scheme of things as these groups lived near each other and surely intermingled in trade and marriage, but when it comes to territory, dirt is thicker than either blood or water.

Fifi

Rich7
December 11, 2005 - 12:41 pm
MeriJo, Thank you.

I can attest that, if Chinese explorers landed on the East Coast of America, they were different than those who landed on the West Coast. Chinese restaurants on the East Coast all serve "duck sauce." It's a sweet sauce made from plums and apricots that you smear over just about everything on your plate. Additionally, all East Coast Chinese take-out restaurants throw a couple small plastic containers of "duck sauce" into every bag of take-out.

Ask for "duck sauce" in any West Coast Chinese restaurant and you are met by a blank stare. Irrefutable proof that different (and obviously gastronomically inferior) Chinese explorers landed on America's West Coast.

I think I'll send this information to Menzies. Surely he can use it in his next book.

Rich

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 01:28 pm
Rich7:

Fifi le Beau
December 11, 2005 - 01:40 pm
Rich, he surely would use your story. Menzies is a collector of tall tales and not an historian. His publisher is selling the book as history, not fiction.

The Chinese on the east coast fabrication is refuted in the following article. It is fitting for Benedict Arnold to be part of this tall tale.

Tilting at Windmills

The Chinese who immigrated to America built their fishing junks in America as in the old country. They fished the rivers of California and the coast in the 1800's in these American built junks. They still made their anchors as their ancestors did. They lost these anchors with regularity along the coast of California. The anchors were all made of California rock, and the junks were made of California wood.

An anchor necktie for Menzies

The captain of Menzies 'ghost ship' was a muslim. This is not the first time the muslims have tried to claim they discovered America. We discussed this back in the Islam chapters of Durant. The claim at that time was that the muslims came from the middle east and settled America and claiming kinship to some natives found in the Caribbean. They were refuted in that claim as they offered absolutely no proof of any such voyage or any settlement.

Now Menzies has the muslim eunuch Captain He sailing all over the world and planting Chinese wherever he went. This book would be laughable if it were not being sold as a book of history.

Fifi

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 03:31 pm
Somewhere I must have missed something. I don't get the connection between Chinese arriving in America and Durant's discussion of the Border States.

Robby

Justin
December 11, 2005 - 04:12 pm
President Clinton brought the three Baltic states into the NATO alliance in the nineteen ninties. Russia at the time put up a fuss because it was losing a buffer but NATO was very happy to get them.

I have always thought of Lithuania as slavic. Now I am uncertain.

mabel1015j
December 11, 2005 - 04:14 pm
It is titled "Paper Clips" and is the true story of a middle school in Whitlaw, Tenn where 3 teachers worked w/ students who were studying the Holocaust and developed a project they had impact from Tenn to Europe. I missed the beginning, so i'm not sure how the idea got started, but they decided to collect paper clips as representative of the people who were in the Holocaust. They ended up with 29 million paper clips and thousands of wonderful letters from people who were survivors or who's friends and family died in the camps. They were contacted by a group of survivors who came and spent two or three days in the community and told their stories, impacting not only the students but many in the town.

One of the teachers said she would like to provide a permenant memorial on the school grounds using the paper clips as a symbol of the 11 million people who died. A couple of German descent who lived in the community went to Germany and found a cattle car that was used to transport people to the camps. They brought it to Whitlaw and it is used as a depository and museum for the clips and the stories. The students now act as docents to the students and adults who come from everywhere to hear the story of the Holocaust and the story of the project.

The story is wonderful in many ways: it belies the horrible stories about how bad todays' teachers are that are put forth, largely by the conservative right who dislikes the teachers' union; it tells a marvelous story of a whole community learning lessons of history, tolerance and compassion; it tells a story of students just needing to be told real, interesting stories of history to enjoy studying it; it tells the story that middle school students can be responsible, hard-working young people when they are motivated.

It's on HBO ON Demand, if you have access to that.......jean

3kings
December 11, 2005 - 04:17 pm
Good King Wenceslas of the Carol, was a Czech I believe. The territory looked upon as Polish has been under Territorial domination by the Austro-Hungarians and the Swedes, as well as by the Germans and the Russians.

France under Napoleon also figured largely in the Polish occupations. Hence Chopin and also Madame Curie( of radium fame ) spent large periods of their lives in Paris. But I'm getting too far ahead of myself there, I know. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 04:31 pm
"Bohemia and Moravia had been settled by Slavs in the fifth and sixth centuries.

"In 623 a Slavic chieftain, Samo, freed Bohemia from the Avars and established a monarchy that died with him in 658.

"Charlemagne invaded the land in 805 and for an unknown period Bohemia and Moravia were parts of the Carolingian Empire.

"In 804 the Premysl family brought both lands under their enduring dynasty. But the Magyars ruled Moravia for half a century and in 928 Henry I made Bohemia subject to Germany.

"Duke Wenceslas I brought prosperity to Bohemia despite this intermittent dependency. He had been given a thoroughly Christian upbringing by his mother, St. Ludmilla. He did not cease to be a Christian when he became a ruler. He fed and clothed the poor, protected orpahs and widows, gave hospitality to strangers and bought freedom for slaves.

"His brother tried to assassinate him as lacking the vices desirable in a king. Wenceslas struck him down with his own hand and forgave him. But other members of the conspiracy murdered the King on his way to Mass on September 25, 935.

"The day is annually celebrated as the feast of Wenceslas, Bohemia's tutelary saint."

How does that phrase go? "No good deed goes unpunished." And on my birthday, no less!

Robby

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 05:43 pm
Happy Birthday, Robby!

Mine was yesterday!

robert b. iadeluca
December 11, 2005 - 05:45 pm
Today is not my birthday. King Wenceslas was murdered on my birthday.

Robby

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 05:47 pm
It seems as though in those ancient times people would get so angry they would think nothing of killing each other off.

Somehow, humans continue to do this even today. The most intelligent of beings fail to use reason and dialogue to settle disputes.

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 05:49 pm
Happy Belated Birthday! Robby!

Justin
December 11, 2005 - 06:30 pm
My birthday was the day before yesterday, Merijo. If you are now 82 we could have come to this world a few hours apart.

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 06:40 pm
Fifi:

In his book, Menzies offers the determination that the tower was built by Arnold - page 286-287. He doesn't claim authenticity for the Chinese.

There is absolutely no reference to Palos Verdes Peninsula in the book. However, there is frequent reference to the Cape Verde Islands off the coast of Africa where a carved stone was erected with evidence of Chinese presence. - Especially on page 403, "adze anchors with the curved fluke (the piece that holds the anchor in the mud) set at right angles to the stock of the anchor - a Chinese design - have been discovered on the coastline of Arnhem Land." (Australia) (No doughnut shape here, it seems.)

Mohammedanism was known in China. The eunuch, Zheng He, was a muslim. His story is in the book. The emperor, Zhu Di, had confidence in him and appointed him to lead one of the ten fleets that traveled the world.

Fifi:

Historians are furious with Menzies, because his discoveries - it took him fifteen years to travel here and there for material for this book - may cause a real upheaval in the recording of history as we know it. History books may have to be re-written. These resources you have given are taking bits an pieces of the work and weaving their own stories of condemnation around Menzies premise. He himself notes that this will happen. He, himself, has identified speculation and fact appearing in his book.

The Palos Verdes Peninsula in southern California marks the southernmost point of Santa Monica Bay. This Bay is pretty far into the arc of land marking the western boundary of Los Angeles. The Peninsula point then swings in a south-easterly direction to make up the Los Angeles-Long Beach harbor which is man-made. California's coastline then follows an indented southerly direction to San Diego.

MeriJo
December 11, 2005 - 06:45 pm
Justin:

I'm 83!

Fifi le Beau
December 11, 2005 - 07:14 pm
MeriJo, I have pages of links that refute all the claims made by Menzies concerning America, South America, Greenland, and etc. I have written all that I intend to on that hoax, as Robby wants us back in the Baltic, since we did China two or more years ago in SoC.

Happy birthday MeriJo and Justin.

Fifi

Fifi le Beau
December 11, 2005 - 07:37 pm
Justin, here is an excerpt from a much longer article of the different ethnic groups we are reading about. This one defines the Lithuanians. It says they did not assimilate with the slavs and remained a separate ethnic group.

I wrote from memory of my study of the Baltic states and since it has been fifty years, a memory check was in order.

The duchy of Novaharodak was virtually surrounded by unassimilated Baltic tribes: the Jacviahi(Yatvegians) in the west (who were later belarusianized), the Nalscany in the north, the Litva in the east and Northeast, and the area called Aukstota in the south-eastern part of modern Lithuania. Another Baltic tribe, the Samogitians, who lived between Aukstota and the Baltic Sea, did not merge with the Slavs but remained a separate ethnic group. It was the Samogitians and the inhabitants of Aukstota who became the ancestors of today's Lithuanians.

Aukstota - which means highland in Lithuanian - is nowhere mentioned as such in the medieval chronicles and did not seem to be a political entity. Many of its place names contain the word aukstas, or high, while Samogitia, further to the west, means lowland. The city of Vilna (currently know as Vilnius) the present capital of Lithuania, is in Aukstota and Lithuanian scholars consider Aukstota to be the heart of the Lithuanian ethnic area. They claim that Aukstota was the location of the original Litva and that it was from here that Duke Mindouh (Mindaugas in modern Lithuanian) left to conquer the adjoining Duchy of Novaharodak and established the Grand Duchy of Litva.

However, the separate ethnic character of Litva is supported by the non-Slavic names of their leaders - Mindouh, Vojsalk, etc. Mr. Jermalovic feels that Litva referred to an unassimilated Baltic ethnic island.


Fifi

Justin
December 11, 2005 - 08:11 pm
Thank you, Fifi. Clearly, Lithuania is not Slavic.

Traude S
December 11, 2005 - 08:13 pm
Thank you for this reference, FIFI.
JUSTIN, the Lithuanians are not Slavs but, ROBBY, the Poles are.

I am surprised that Durant pulls us once more into this subject, and I remember distinctly that we have been there not that long ago in another context.

And this is precisely what I noticed when, years ago, I brought home one volume (can't remember which one) from this series. It was so very different in approach and some details, including the spelling of certain words, from all we learned over our high school years that I did not keep the book.

MAL, I do not have the series and do not intend to buy the books because I would no doubt become even angrier, and not only because of the repeated (misleading) mention of "Germany" ("... conquest by Germany") when no such entity yet existed.

I wish I could transmit some of the maps from my old Schulatlas of the Mongolian Empire, the Byzantine Empire, of Middle and Western Europe in the age of the Guelphs etc. etc. It would be so much more revelatory than the proverbial one thousand words.

Justin
December 11, 2005 - 10:26 pm
MeriJo; You are almost as old as Robby. He has plans for his 100th year. He will be reading about Napoleon in book eleven.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 12, 2005 - 01:13 am
MAP OF THE MONGOLIAN EMPIRE

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 12, 2005 - 01:18 am
MAP OF THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2005 - 04:54 am
Traude, you say:-"I am surprised that Durant pulls us once more into this subject, and I remember distinctly that we have been there not that long ago in another context."

As you say, it is another context. Please keep in mind the constant rotation that Durant uses as he follows the "Four Elements" that he states in the Heading above.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2005 - 04:56 am
Germany

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2005 - 05:12 am
I realize, Traude, that Durant's use of this word bothers you but Durant explained to us earlier that he is using this term in a shorthand way to avoid longer phrases for that area of Europe.

"The victor in the historic contest over lay investiture was the aristocracy of Germany -- the dukes, lords, bishops, and abbots, who, after the defeat of Henry IV, controlled a weakened monarchy and developed a centrifugal feudalism that in the thirteenth century deposed Germany from the leadership of Europe.

"Henry V (1106-1125), having overthrown his father, continued his father's sruggle against barons and popes. When Paschal II refused to crown him emperor except on surrender of the right to lay investiture, he imprisoned Pope and cardinals. When he died the nobility overthrew the principle of hereditary monarchy, ended the Franconian dynasty, and made Lothair III of Saxony king.

"Thirteen years later Conrad III of Swabia began the Hohenstaufen dynastry, the most powerful line of kings in German history.

"Duke Henry of Bavaria rejected the electors choice and was supported by his uncle Welf, or Guelf. Now flared up that strife between 'Guelf' and 'Ghibelline' which was to have so many forms and issues in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

"The Hohenstaufen army besieged the Bavarian rebels in the town and fortress of Weinsberg. There, says an old tradition, the rival cries 'Hi Welf!' and 'Hi Weibling!' established the names of the warring groups. There (says a pretty legend), when the victorious Swabians accepted the surrender of the town on the understanding that the women alone were to be spared, and were to be allowed to depart with whatever they could carry, the sturdy housewives marched forth with their husbands on their backs.

"A truce was called in 1141 when Conrad went on crusade. But Conrad failed and returned in disgrace.

"The House of Hohenstaufen seemed stamped with disgrace when its first outstanding figure reached the throne."

Any comments about that area of Europe here called "Germany?"

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2005 - 05:45 am
A brief return to a BORDER STATE.

Robby

MeriJo
December 12, 2005 - 11:31 am
Durant explains his way of writing history.

Durant employed a narrative writing style he called "integral" history.  Believing that the usual method of writing history in distinct sections--political history, economic history, religious history, history of philosophy, history of science--did not capture the unity and flow of human life, and he instead wanted to present history as "one complex, moving picture."   Using thousands of slips of paper to organize the research--and writing in longhand--Durant would produce a finished manuscript every three or four years for 40 years, from 1935 to 1975.

http://www.willdurant.com/rehro.htm    

3kings
December 12, 2005 - 04:46 pm
The following, taken from Robby's link, has a familiar ring to New Zealanders.

"While there are no official statistics, Latvian officials estimate that 50,000 to 100,000 people have emigrated over the last 18 months, as many as 25,000 of them to Ireland. In the latest high-profile departure, Latvians watched with horror last month when the Olympic biathlete Jekabs Nakums announced on television that he was leaving to wash cars in Ireland."

NZ with a population of 4 million, (about twice that of Latvia), at any one time has about 1 million of its citizens living and working overseas, mostly in Australia, but every where else as well.

We well know the effects this has on a country. Its standard of living falls alarmingly. Up till 1980 our living standards were equal to that of the US, today we are waydown, about 30th in the league tables that track this sort of thing.

The oil shocks, and the free opening of our shores to all nation's goods, ( we cancelled our protective tariffs over night in 1985 ) has left us with no industrial base to give work to our people. So as soon as the young graduate, they crowd onto aircraft, and leave.

It's a shocking experience to us oldies, who through our working lives, had such high hopes for our nation. I note the US is beginning to lose it's industrial base to Asia. I hope for your sakes you manage to halt the slide. Once again I have strayed from Durant......++ Trevor

Malryn (Mal)
December 12, 2005 - 07:16 pm

Guelf and Ghibelline


"Ugolino dell Gheradesca, whose story is told in Canto 33 of Dante's Inferno, was an Italian nobleman in the Guelph party who was made podesta of Pisa in 1284. In a conspiracy contrived by the Ghibelline Archbishop Ruggeri, Ugolino was accused of having betrayed his town by being negligent in battle. The Archbishop condemned him for his treasonous activities and had him locked up in a tower with his sons and grandsons. The entire male line, therefore, was left to starve to death. Dante tells the story of how Ugolino's children, bearing the unjust condemnation that was their fate offered to sacrifice their bodies to keep their father alive." (Columbia Encyclopedia)


UGOLINO AND HIS SONS by Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux

Justin
December 12, 2005 - 07:38 pm
Trevor I see it happening in the U.S. as well. Our manufacturing base has been greatly reduced in the last 20 years. We don't realize what happens to an area when an industry moves out. You would think that the steel problem of sixties and the textile problems in an earlier period would make us aware. But we never learn. Each generation must discover for itself what works and what doesn't. My goodness New England is still full of ghost towns and empty factories from the textile move in the forties and fifties. Silicon Valley has not recovered by any means. Yet, we never learn, somehow, to protect our vital industries. I'm not talking about tariffs. I'm talking about subsidy and support. I'm talking about an end to minimum wages as well as to the guaranteed wage in the auto industry. These thing are killers.

robert b. iadeluca
December 12, 2005 - 10:05 pm
Any comments regarding Durant's words in Post 340?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 13, 2005 - 04:02 am
"There (says a pretty legend), when the victorious Swabians accepted the surrender of the town on the understanding that the women alone were to be spared, and were to be allowed to depart with whatever they could carry, the sturdy housewives marched forth with their husbands on their backs" That's what I call sturdy, yes.

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2005 - 04:44 am
What is going on these days in the BORDER STATES?

Robby

Rich7
December 13, 2005 - 09:30 am
Enjoyed reading the story about Estonia and its capital Tallinn in post #348. I was in Tallinn not long ago and found the people there to have a remarkable vitality. The country of Estonia has been under someone else's control almost throughout history. They have been free for about only 25 years out of the last thousand. In fact, the name of the ancient city Tallinn means something like "place where the Danes rule."

Since they became free after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the people of Estonia are like prisoners who have been released from a life sentence. The newfound energy, vitality, and optimism of the Estonians is palpable. The only time you see them frown is when you mention Russia. They hate Russians, and the word "hate" is not an overstatement.

One major concern that the Estonians expressed at the time that I visited was that their only industry since liberation has been tourism. Robby's post #348 is an encouraging sign that this small country with friendly and optimistic people is going to make it on its own, economically.

Rich

mabel1015j
December 13, 2005 - 09:53 am
civilized once again? According to Durant's definition it seems to me the GErmans and the Russians bro't CHAOS to them, not civiliztion, and now maybe they are getting out of the chaos and becoming more secure once again.....jean

Justin
December 13, 2005 - 02:02 pm
Much of the Investiture problem was centered here in this area Durant calls Germany. The battle between the Holy Roman Emperors and the see of Rome over the right to appoint Bishops and to try clerical people in lay courts. We will see a continuation of this issue when we reach England. Thomas Beckett will engage in a contest with the English King.

Justin
December 13, 2005 - 02:32 pm
Traud: It would help I think if were familiar with the Duchies in this area. I know of Swabia, Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony,Hanover etc. I think there are 25 or more. These were initially called East Germany, as I understand it. I suppose we could refer to the area as the Holy Roman Empire.However,it is difficult to recognize any of that title making sense , except perhaps under Charlemagne. The area is not Roman, that's clear. Also a collection of separate countries doesn't suggest an empire. They may have been Holy, but the investiture question puts a limit on that title.

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 13, 2005 - 03:07 pm
Justin, does THIS make sense? The sublinks are basic information about what we now call Germany.

Justin
December 13, 2005 - 04:05 pm
Thanks, Eloise. It looks like Franconia and Loraine must be added to the list. If there were only five perhaps initially, I wonder then how Prussia and some the others came about.

robert b. iadeluca
December 13, 2005 - 08:44 pm
"Friedrich ('Lord of Peace') or Frederick I was thirty when chosen king.

"He was not imposing -- a small fair skinned man with yellow hair and a red beard that won him in Italy the name of Barbarossa. But his head was clear and his will was strong.

"His life was spent in labors for the state. Although he suffered many defeats, he brought Germany again to the leadership of the Christian world. Carrying in his veins the blood of both the Hohenstaufens and the Welfs, he proclaimed a Landfried, or Peace of the Land, conciliated his enemies, quieted his friends, and sternly suppressed feuds, disorder, and crime.

"His contemporaries described him as genial and ever ready with a winning smile. But he was a 'terror to evildoers,' and the barbarism of his penal laws advanced civilization in Germany. His private life was justly praised for decency.

"However, he divorced his first wife on grounds of consanguinity and married the heiress of the count of Burgundy, winning a kingdom with his bride.

"Anxious for papal coronation as emperor, he promised Pope Eugenius III aid against the rebellious Romans and the troublesome Normans in return for the imperial ointment.

"Arrived at Nepi, near Rome, the proudn young king met the new pontiff, Hadrian IV and omitted the customary rite by which the secular ruler held the pope's bridle and stirrup and helped him to dismount. Hadrian reached the ground unaided, and refused Frederick the 'kiss of peace' and the crown of empire until the traditional ritual should be performed.

"For two days the aides of Pope and King disputed the point, hanging empire on protocol. Frederick yielded. The Pope retired and made a second entry on horseback.

"Frederick held the papal bridle and stirrup and thereafter spoke of the Holy Roman Empire in the hope that the world would consider the emperor, as well as the pope, the vicegerent of God."

Sometimes diplomatic procedures are more powerful than military.

Robby

Sunknow
December 13, 2005 - 09:04 pm
Can a point of honor be so fragile? That the Pope actually retired and entered again so the correct ritual could be followed...it seems almost a childish game.

Yet, it was a diplomatic procedures, and in a way, history actually hinged on it.

Sun

Justin
December 13, 2005 - 09:07 pm
Barbarosa's deal with Eugeneus looks like bribery to me. The bridle and stirrup thing makes the King a lackey to the Pope. It was Barbarosa who went to the Holy Land on Crusade and had his butt kicked. This particular Pope demonstrated temporal authority well beyond the few Papal States he owned.. I don't know when we will come to it but one of these kings was forced to grovel in the snow for an extended period of time in mid winter( a couple of days in his bare feet.) for a similar slight to a Pope. The poor guy was doing pennance. In England in this period Henry 11 took a stripe on the back from something like 60 monks for his actions against the clericals.

Justin
December 13, 2005 - 09:09 pm
Remember when MacArthur came ashore in the Phillippines waving his pipe and saying "I have returned". He did that two or three times before the photos satisfied him.

robert b. iadeluca
December 14, 2005 - 04:26 am
"His imperial title made him also King of Lombardy.

"No German ruler since Henry IV had taken this title literally. But Frederick now sent to each of the northern Italian cities a podesta to govern it in his name. Some cities accepted, some rejected, these alien masters.

"Loving order more than liberty, and perhaps anxious to control the Italian outlets of German trade with the East, Frederick set out in 1159 to subdue the rebellious towns which loved liberty more than order. He summoned to his court at Roncaglia the learned legists who were reviving Roman law at Bologna.

"He was pleased to learn from them that by that law the emperor held absolute authority over all parts of the Empire, owned all property to it, and might modify or abrogate private rights wherever he though it desirable for the state.

"Pope Alexander III, fearing for the temporal rights of the papacy, and citing the donations of Pepin and Charlemagne, repudiated these claims. When Frederick insisted on them, excommunicated him.

"The cries of Guelf and Ghibelline now passed into Italy to denote respectively the supporters of the Pope and those of the Emperor. For two years Frederick besieged obdurate Milan. Capuring it at last, he burned it to the ground.

"Angered by this ruthlessness and galled by the exactions of the German podestas, Verona, Vicenza, Padua, Treviso, Ferrara, Mantua, Brescia, Bergamo, Cremona, Piacenza, Parma, Modena, Bologna, and Milan formed the Lombard League.

"At Legnano, in 1176, the troops of the League defeated Frederick's German army and forced him to a six years' truce. A year later Emperor and Pope were reconciled. At Constance Frederick signed a treaty restoring self government to the Italian cities.

"These in return recognized the formal suzerainty of the Empire and magnanimously agreed to provision Frederick and his retinue on his visits to Lombardy."

Even during World War II, although Mussolini was allied with Hitler, Italians were not too happy at the presence of Germans.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 14, 2005 - 07:25 am

BARBAROSSA

Rich7
December 14, 2005 - 08:07 am
Another World War II connection.

When Hitler broke his peace treaty with Russia and ordered the invasion of Russia in 1941, opening up the "second front," saving Britain, and ultimatly sealing Hitler's fate, he named the campaign "Operation Barbarossa."

Rich

mabel1015j
December 14, 2005 - 11:46 am
Here we go again! Is Durant suggesting that as long as there is not chaos and insecurity (by any means neccesary?) that we have civilization?? Sounds like Mussolini's Italy, etc. etc. to Saddam's Iraq. Did Frederick/Barbarossa provide all of those other 4 elements that Durant says are "civilization?"

And again we have men playing games about who is the more powerful, even in the most simple behaviors. "I will make you do stupid things, just because I can!!" THIS is civilization??......jean

MeriJo
December 14, 2005 - 12:09 pm
These behaviors were somehow expected then. These were elements of civilization people went through to get to the next stage, I think.

These events occurred in the "political world" of which Durant writes. Alongside these posturings other things were going on, possibly, including discoveries of new ways for living, education, maybe, a superstition or two was eliminated and some commerce developed.

In time, these would come together to affect future behaviors between governments/leaders.

Civilization on the European continent was slow and laborious, but it got there, and eventually, European thought did appear to control much of the world.

Asia seemed content in its own environs. Africa was generally unable to grow after initially making such a good start in art and human organization. The Middle East did venture forward, but within the parameters of Islam, and the West was unknown for the most part although daily we learn how advanced cultures were there. A particularly impressive and skillful mural depicting Mayan culture was recently unearthed. Today's LATimes says it is 2100 years old.

Rich7
December 14, 2005 - 12:31 pm
MeriJo,

Give us a link to the Mayan mural. I'd love to see it.

Anyone else got a link?

Rich

Bubble
December 14, 2005 - 12:50 pm
Here it is Rich

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/14/arts/design/14maya.html

"New radiocarbon tests revealed the painting to be 200 years older than originally estimated, dating to about 100 B.C."

Rich7
December 14, 2005 - 01:07 pm
Bubble,

Thank you. My problem is that I can't get NY Times links. I've been in contact with them numerous times and, between us, we still can't get it to work. I've given up. It's particularly frustrating since many of Robby's background postings are NY Times links.

It was very nice of you to come up with it, though.

Rich

Rich7
December 14, 2005 - 01:17 pm
O.K., I found another link to the Mayan mural. Here it is, for anyone else who may be having trouble getting into NYT links.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1213_051213_mural_photo.html

Rich

MeriJo
December 14, 2005 - 02:02 pm
Thank you, Bubbles and Rich7:

I hesitated to send the photo from the LATimes because one has to register in order to see their articles.

It is an amazing painting - with all the delicate scrolls and curves in it. Usually, I picture Mayan art as massive and with broad figures.

robert b. iadeluca
December 14, 2005 - 05:47 pm
"The absorption of the emperors in Italian affairs, the recurrent need of enlisting or rewarding the support of lords and knights with grants of land or power, and the weakening of the German monarchy by papal opposition and Lombard revolts, had left the nobility free to engross the countryside and reduce the peasantry to serfdom.

"Feudalism triumphed in thirteenth-century Germany at the very time when it was succumbing to the royal power in France. The bishops, whom the earlier emperors had favored as a foil to the barons, had become a second nobility, as rich, powerful and independent as the secular lords.

"By 1263 seven nobles -- the archbishops of Mainz, Trier, and Cologne, the dukes of Saxony and Bavaria, the count palatine, and the margrave of Brandenburg -- had been entrusted by the feudality with the authority to choose the king. These electors hedged in the powers of the ruler, usurped royal prerogatives, and seized crown lands. They might have acted as a central government and given the nation unity. They did not.

"Between elections they went their several ways. No German nation existed yet. There were only Saxons, Swabians, Bavarians, Franks. . .There was as yet no national parliament but only territorial diets, Landtage.

"A Reichstag, or Diet of the Commonwealth, established in 1247, languished feebly in the Interregnum and acquired prominence only in 1338. A corps of ministeriales -- serfs or freedmen sppointed by the king -- provided a loose bureaucrcy and continuity of government.

"No one capital centered the country's loyalty and interest. No one system of laws governed the realm. Despite the efforts of Barbarossa to impose Roman law upon all Germany, each region kept its own customs and code.

"In 1225 the laws of the Saxons were formulated in the Sachsenspiegel, or Saxon Mirror.

"In 1275 the Schwahenspiegel codified the laws and customs of Swabia. These codes asserted the ancient right of the people to choose their king and of the peasants to keep their freedom and their land.

"Serfdom and slavery, said the Sachsenspiegel, are contrary to nature and the will of God and owe their origin to force or fraud. But serfdom grew."

Please note Durant saying that "no German nation existed yet."

Robby

Justin
December 14, 2005 - 06:38 pm
An absence of chaos and insecurity is the fertile ground upon which the four elements of civilization can grow a little at a time. I think Merijo is absolutely right when she points to 12th century civilization as one of the stages that people went through to finally arrive at what we call civilization today. Five hundred years from now scholars will look at what we are doing today and recognize in it a struggle to put the four elements of civilization together in the face of chaos. .

winsum
December 14, 2005 - 07:01 pm
Justin has n accurate perspective I think. Each period probably considers itself more advanced than the last. . . ah hubris

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 15, 2005 - 05:40 am
Yah Claire, Justin and having read the four previous volumes of S of C we can almost predict what's in store for us in the future.

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2005 - 06:47 am
"The age of the Hohenstaufens (1138-1254) was the greatest age of Germany before Bismarck.

"The manners of the people were still crude, their laws chaotic, their morals half Christian, half pagan, and their Christianity half a cover for territorial robbery. Their wealth and comforts could compare, city for city, with those of Flanders or Italy.

"But their peasantry was industrious and fertile -- their merchants enterprising and adventurous -- their aristocracy the most cultured and powerful in Europe -- their kings the secular heads of the Western world -- ruling a realm from the Rhine to the Vistula, from the Rhone to the Balkans, from the Baltic to the Danube, from the North Sea to Sicily.

"Out of a virile commercial life a hundred cities had taken form. Many of them had charters of self-government. Decade by decade they grew in wealth and art until in the Renaissance they would be the pride and glory of Germany and be mourned in our day as a beauty that has passed from the earth."

Any final comments about the area we now call Germany?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2005 - 07:31 am
Here is map of "GERMANY" during the Hohenstaufen era.

Robby

Justin
December 15, 2005 - 04:03 pm
I can see that the German contribution to the twelfth Century Renaisance during the Hohenstauffen period was enormous. I wish Traude were able to describe some of the contributions for us. Paris, for example, was largely confined to what we know today as La Cite. Both sides of the Seine were rural. Les Tres Riche Heures of Burgundy depict the character of Paris at this time Italy was in turmoil, the Pope was in Avignon and various factions (Ghibellines and Guelphs), were attacking one another. It was in German territory that major advances were under way.

Malryn (Mal)
December 15, 2005 - 06:05 pm
Click thumbnail to see larger picture.

Les Tres Riches Heures, First Quarter

Les Tres Riches Heures, Second Quarter

Les Tres Riches Heures, Third Quarter

Les Tres Riches Heures, Fourth Quarter

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2005 - 07:55 pm
Scandinavia

Traude S
December 15, 2005 - 08:00 pm
Thank you for linking the map, ROBBY.

The heavy blue line indicates the border of the Roman-German Empire. As you can see, it includes a large part of Italy.

The color code in the top left corner identifies the various owner states by color. I'll be happy to translate and post it but need daylight and will do so tomorrow.

robert b. iadeluca
December 15, 2005 - 08:06 pm
"After a century of happy obscurity Denmark re-entered world history with Waldemar I.

"Helped by his minister, Absalon, Archbishop of Lund, he organized a strong government, cleaned his seas of pirates, and enriched Denmark by protecting and encouraging trade.

"In 1167 Absalon founded Copenhagen as a 'marker haven' -- Kjoebenhavn. Waldemar II replied to German aggression by conquering Holstein, Hamburg, and Germany northeast of the Elbe. 'For the honor of the Blessed Virgin' he undertook three 'crusades' against the Baltic Slavs, captured northern Estonia and founded Reval.

"In one of these campaigns he was attacked in his camp and escaped death, we are told, partly by his own valor, partly through the timely descent from heaven of a red banner bearing a white cross. This Dannebrog, or Dane's Cloth, becxame thereafter the battle standard of the Danes.

"In 1223 he was taken prisoner by Count Henry of Schwarin and was released, after two and a half years, only on his surrendering to the Germans all his Germanic and Slav conquests except Rugen.

"He devoted the remainder of his remarkable life to internal reforms and the codification of Danish law. At his death Denmark was double its present area, included southern Sweden and had a populaton equal to that of Sweden (300,000) and Norway (200,000).

"The power of the kings declined after Waldemar II and in 1282 the nobles secured from Eric Glipping a charter recognizing their assembly, the Danehof, as a national parliament."

Any Scandinavians here?

Robby

Justin
December 15, 2005 - 09:30 pm
Thank you Mal, The Tres riches Heures in all four quarters are beautiful and informative. We are clearly dealing with a rural society in Paris.

How is the snow in Poconos. Must be quite deep this time of year. A different experience for you from that of the Carolinas. If you decide to bob sled or just belly whop watch out for trees.

Justin
December 15, 2005 - 09:33 pm
It is hard to imagine a parliament in the thirteenth century but the danes and to some extent the germans acomplished the task.

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2005 - 05:45 am
Take a trip to NORWAY.

Robby

Bubble
December 16, 2005 - 06:20 am
Owww Robby, let's move this discusssion to Oslo for two weeks! It sounds like a dream in candlelight.

Rich7
December 16, 2005 - 07:57 am
You have to like snow and solitude in Norway (two of my favorite things), but there's an old joke about life in Oslo.

It goes- Question: Where do you go to have a good time in Oslo?

Answer: You go to the airport and buy a ticket to Copenhagen.

Rich

Rich7
December 16, 2005 - 08:17 am
Mal, Picking up on Justin's post #380, you must be experiencing some Norwegian-like snow and solitude right about now in the Poconos.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
December 16, 2005 - 03:49 pm
Any comments about Durant's words in Post 379?

Robby

3kings
December 16, 2005 - 05:25 pm
I always like to get some idea of the numbers of people involved in these historic times. To that end I am surprised that the populations were so few in number. For instance :- "At his ( Waldemar II) death Denmark was double its present area, included southern Sweden and had a population equal to that of Sweden (300,000) and Norway (200,000).

To one used to thinking of 200+ million in North America or Russia, or of the billions in China and India, such small population numbers in Scandinavia, when they were at the height of their influence, is surprising.

I was told recently, that there are more one-year-old children living today, than the collective number of such, throughout all past time. I don't know if that is true or not. ++ Trevor

Rich7
December 16, 2005 - 05:50 pm
O.K. some comments about Durant's post #379. Another personal experience. I hope I'm not wearing people out with personal experiences, but I think they give breadth to the discussion. I still remember Fifi's great story about her encounter with Princess Margaret.

Years ago, I was taking a tour of a magnificent old church in Sweden. I think it was St Birgitta's. (St. Birgitta is very important to the Swedish people.) The tour guide was pointing out the beautiful stained glass in the windows, showing the life of Christ.

One of the stained glass windows was dedicated to the resurrection. It showed Christ coming out of the tomb, and he was carrying a red flag with a white cross (the same as described in Durant's post #379). Two things struck me as odd. One, that Christ would be shown carrying a flag of any sort, and two, that he was carrying a Danish flag in a Swedish church!

I asked the tour guide why Christ was shown waving a Danish flag. She explained that the stained glass window is something of an embarrassment to the congregation and to Swedes in general, but it is ancient and will not be replaced. It was explained that at the time the windows were made, the Crusades were often the subject matter of such art. The red flag with a white cross was one of the flags of the crusades. The Danes later adopted the same flag as their national symbol. So Christ emerging from the tomb, waving a Danish flag in a Swedish church will probably remain as long as the church stands, and the Swedish congregation will just have to put up with the insult.

Rich

Justin
December 16, 2005 - 06:23 pm
Gosh, Rich.I have always thought Christ coming out of his tomb was carrying the stars and stipes. I guess there is room in my pantheon for other countries to have similar notions even if the notion is not always with the right flag.

MeriJo
December 16, 2005 - 09:08 pm
What is a "marker haven?" (Durant's #379)

Justin
December 16, 2005 - 10:13 pm
I do not know what "marker haven" means.

Justin
December 16, 2005 - 10:38 pm
The term is not "marker haven" but "market haven." A market haven is a safe center for trade. It is an area , inthis case free of pirats.

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2005 - 04:09 am
Chalk it up to my typing.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2005 - 05:06 am
"Only the imaginative empathy of a great novelist could make us visualize the achievement of Scandinavia in these early centuries -- the heroic conquest, day by day, foot by foot, of a difficult and dangerous peninsula.

"Life was still primitive. Hunting and fishing, as well as agriculture, were primary sources of sustenance. Vast forests had to be cleared -- wild animals had to be brought under control -- waters had to be channeled to productive courses -- harbors had to be built -- men had to harden themselves to cope with a nature that seemed to resent the intrusion of man.

"Cistercian monks played a noble role in this agelong war, cutting timber, tilling the soil, and teaching the peasants improved methods of agriculture.

"One of the many heroes of the war was Earl Birger, who served Sweden as prime minister from 1248 to 1266, abolished serfdom, established the reign of law, founded Stockholm (c. 1255), and inaugurated the Folkung dynasty by putting his son Waldemar on the throne.

"Bergen grew rich as the outlet of Norway's trade and Visby, on the island of Gotland, became the center of contact between Sweden and the Hanseatic League.

"Excellent churches were built, cathedral and monastic schools multiplied, poets strummed their lays, and Iceland, far off in the Arctic mists, became in the thirteenth century the most active literary center in the Scandinavian world."

Comments, please?

Robby

mabel1015j
December 17, 2005 - 09:58 am
"... Iceland, far off in the Arctic mists, became in the thirteenth century the most active literary center in the Scandinavian world."?

Might this be because it was cold and snowy and people spent a lot of time inside contemplating, writing, reading?

Have you had any discussion about how weather effects history? As I have read the posts it doesn't seem to matter if we are in the Mediterrean balmy regions or in the cold, snowy, north, the story of human beings seems to be the same......jean

MeriJo
December 17, 2005 - 12:29 pm
Thank you, Justin. I did Google "market haven", but no reference was given. The location of Copenhagen would provide some natural protection.

Iceland is still a very scholarly nation. Nothing else to do as agriculture is necessarily limited - I believe sheep are raised. (I have a pair of mittens made from Icelandic wool - nice and warm. And, of course, fishing is an important industry.

People often respond to their weakest traits, I think, of greed and envy and jealousy. It takes intestinal fortitude to look beyond these instinctive reactions to thoughts of altruism and cooperation, I think, and to serve the greater good. Doesn't seem to matter as to geography and climate, but, perhaps the will of a leader.

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2005 - 02:46 pm
Notice in this map of ICELAND that it is completely below the Arctic Circle and in the larger map that areas of Norway and Sweden are further north.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 17, 2005 - 02:51 pm
Here is DETAILED INFORMATION about Iceland.

Robby

Justin
December 17, 2005 - 04:27 pm
Brrrrrr!

JoanK
December 17, 2005 - 05:01 pm
Someone once told me that Iceland and Greenland should exchange names, as it would be a better fit. Not having been to either, I can't confirm this.

Traude S
December 17, 2005 - 07:01 pm
Iceland, a volcanic island with many geysers, uses geothermal energy to heat houses and create electricity. Even in the dead of winter it is a hugely popular spot with many amenities for the young and affluent, e.g. from Boston, who flock there for a weekend because it is so close. It is an expensive place in winter and in summer.

As for the massive body of Icelandic literature, that would be the Edda and the Sagas that comprise Norse history and mythology.

The peninsula Durant mentions is Denmark. Norway and Sweden constitute the larger part of Scandinavia.

But for the sake of good order and as promised, I would like to now identify the areas and territories in the Hohenstaufen era map ROBBY had linked, specifically on the basis of the color chart in the upper left corner.

I had just finished the list but lost it while editing and hope to complete it the second time around.

As stated earlier, the thick blue line represents the border of the then Roman-German Empire.
White = property of the Empire and the House of Hohenstaufen
blue = Hohenstaufen dukedoms and counties (with the seat in Swabia, now known as Württemberg)
deep rose = property of the "Welfen" House (direct neighbors and adversaries, then and now known as Bayern = Bavaria)
light rose = Welfen dukedoms
different rose nuance = the "Babenberger" = Dukes of Austria
thinner pinkish line = border of the Kingdom of France
color-divided horizontal rectangle = English property (Plantagenet)
light green = House Property of the Counts of Toulouse
yellow = Fiefdoms of the Counts of Toulouse

The three other color blocks on the right of the chart represent

pinkish = land of the "Wettiner" = noble houses of Thuringia and Saxonia
brownish = land of the "Askanier" = another Saxonian line
yellowish = Savoy, where the future kings of Italy originated.

I have defined the colors as best I could from the map print I made and hope it is clear.

MeriJo
December 17, 2005 - 08:53 pm
Thank you, Traude.

I was surprised that Italy had come under German rule that early.

MeriJo
December 17, 2005 - 08:57 pm
Joan K.

I had heard that originally Iceland was to have been called Greenland and vice versa, but somehow the mapmaker confused the two names and so the islands were misnamed. The witness had noticed all the ice on Greenland and all the green fields on Iceland. I don't know when this happened, but it had to have been many years ago.

3kings
December 17, 2005 - 09:45 pm
What I find impressive is that the Scandinavians, in their just sea worthy boats, could have reached Greenland and Iceland, to say nothing of reaching the eastern coast of US.

The secret of a successful exploration is of course, not so much in the outward journey, but rather in being able to return home again, and tell the admiring folks at home just how one did it.

It reminds me that in the Pacific, the Polynesians in their canoes explored all the tiny atolls scattered across the immense Pacific. It took them thousands of years, and they made their last great discovery, New Zealand, just about the time the Danes reached America.

They journeyed always southeast-ward, into the prevailing trade winds, as by doing so, it was always easy to turn back and retrace their outward journey. They must have reached South America, as the Kumera ( Sweet potato ) became a staple of their diet. The plant is a native of South America, so it is there that the Polynesians must have got it.

It is because of these close parallels that they are sometimes called "The Vikings of the Sunrise". The only time they switched there major direction, was in 300 AD when they sailed due north from Tahiti, and discovered Hawaii, and in 1000 AD when they journeyed southwest to reached the islands of Aotearoa, (NZ). ++ Trevor

Rich7
December 18, 2005 - 06:43 am
Trevor, I read that recently in South America human skulls have been discovered that are not related to the the Mongolian type that crossed the land bridge from Asia into America 12,000 years ago. These skulls are about that age but the bone structure suggests that these people were related more to South Pacific Polynesians.

I'll try to find that article.

Thor Hyerdahl (sp), another Scandinavian, felt he proved that America could have been settled by people from what is now Egypt. His book "The Ra Expedition" was a best seller, but not in scholarly circles.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2005 - 07:20 am
Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading. Now we come to that part of history which is more familiar to high school students. For some reason or other, they do not seem to know much before England's history.

"William the Conqueror ruled England with a masterly mixture of force, legality, piety, subtlety and fraud.

"Elevated to the throne by a cowed Witan, he swore to observe existing English law. Some thanes in the west and north took advantage of his absence in Normandy to try revolt. He returned and passed like a flame of revenge through the land, and 'harried the north' with such judicious killing and destruction of homes, barns, crops, and cattle that northern England did not fully recover until the nineteenth century.

"He distributed the choicest lands of the kingdom in great estates among his Norman aides and encouraged these to built castles as fortresses of defense against a hostile population.

"He kept large tracts as crown lands. One parcel, thirty miles long, was set aside as a royal hunting preserve. All houses, churches, and schools therein were leveled to the ground to clear the way for horses and hounds. Any man who slew a hart or hind in this New Forest was to lose his eyes.

"So was founded the new nobility of England whose progeny still bear, now and then, French names. The feudalism that before had been relatively weak covered the land and reduced most of the conquered people to serfdom. All the soil belongd to the king.

"But Englishmen who could show that they had not resisted the Conquest were allowed to repurchase their lands from the state. To list and know his spoils, William sent agents in 1085 to record the ownership, condition, and contents of every parcel of land in England. Says the old Chronicle:-'So narrowly did he commission them that there was not a yard of land, nay not even an ox, nor a cow, nor a swine, that was not set down in his writ.'

"The result was the Domesday Book, ominously so named as the final 'doom' or judgment in all disputes of reality. To assure himself military support, and limit the power of his great vassals, William summoned all important landowners of England -- 60,000 of them -- to a concourse at Salisbury and made every man pledge his paramount fealty to the king.

"It was a wise precaution against the individualistic feudalism tht was at that time dismembering France."

Imagine! Some of Northern England did not recover until a hundred years ago or so.

Robby

Rich7
December 18, 2005 - 07:38 am
Found the article.

http://hoopermuseum.earthsci.carleton.ca/beringia/preclovis.html

Rich

Rich7
December 18, 2005 - 08:05 am
Comment on Durant's post #406.

Robby, we haven't recovered yet! The effects of William the Conquerer are still being felt in our everyday language.

After 1066 the nobility was French (culturally), and the lower classes were English. The people in the grand dining hall spoke French and the poor folks who tended the animals spoke English.

That explains why the animal kept its English name, but the food of that animal served grandly in the dining hall got a new French name.

Examples: Animal: Pig

Meat:- Pork, from Old French "porc."

Animal:- Cow

Meat:- Beef, from French word "boeuf."

Animal:- Sheep

Meat:- Mutton, from French word "mouton."

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2005 - 09:53 am
Mais oui, Rich, vous avez raison.

Robby

Scrawler
December 18, 2005 - 10:45 am
It doesn't seem possible that it would take one hundred years for a place to recover from a scorched earth policy. I can understand people not rebuilding homes and barns and perhaps moving on to a better area, but wouldn't the land itself recover in less than a hundred years?

robert b. iadeluca
December 18, 2005 - 10:49 am
If I understood correctly, it didn't take one hundred years, it took EIGHT HUNDRED YEARS -- from about 1070 to perhaps 1870 - a bit over 100 years ago.

Robby

Traude S
December 18, 2005 - 06:02 pm
ROBBY, allow me to back-track briefly. I do think the following explanation is helpful.

The Holy Roman Empire, or Erstes Reich, Altes Reich = First Empire, Old Empire, lasted from 800 to 1806.
It began with the coronation of Carolingian Charlemagne by Pope Leo III on Christmas of 800.
Its official name was first Imperium Romanum , then Sacrum Imperium, then Sacrumn Imperium Romanum, and in the 15th century Sacrum Imperium Romanum Nationis Germanicae = Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. The title of the monarch was originally "king". He was elevated to emperor by virtue of being crowned by the pope. The last coronation by a pope took place in 1530, thereafter the elected and crowned German king automatically became "Elected Roman Emperor".

The reign of the Holy Roman Empire ended in 1804 when German Emperor Franz II of Habsburg adopted the title Emperor of Austria and laid down the crown of Holy Roman Emperor.

MeriJo, the territory of the H.R.E extended down to Spoleto, included e.g. Tuscia (Toscana), the republic of Lucca, among thers. The map in my historic atlas also shows, in a different color, the papal lands marked "Patrimonium Petri".

With respect, the designation as "Germany" for this shifting conglomeration of states, numerous noble estates of varying sizes, and countries (i.e. parts of France and Italy) is misleading for the modern reader and not accurate historically.

3kings
December 19, 2005 - 12:29 am
RICH thank you for that link to ancient South American skulls having Polynesian attributes. I think the Pacific peoples did venture as far as South America. Perhaps some stayed and founded a community there.

Mitochondrial evidence seems to indicate that the original peoples of the Pacific Islands came from Taiwan. ++ Trevor

Hats
December 19, 2005 - 01:08 am
I would like to say thank you for the article too.

Was there really a book printed, at that time, called the Doomsday book? What a low morale the people must have felt. Was it a small or large book?

Bubble
December 19, 2005 - 01:50 am
Rich, I finally found time to read that Clovis article and even do some more searching. thanks for an interesting URL.

robert b. iadeluca
December 19, 2005 - 04:47 am
Here is an excerpt from the DOMESDAY BOOK which shows how detailed it was regarding each person's property.

Robby

Hats
December 19, 2005 - 04:59 am

Rich7
December 19, 2005 - 07:40 am
I've always liked Voltaire's comment about the Holy Roman Empire. "It was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire."

Rich

Rich7
December 19, 2005 - 07:48 am
Another interesting point. Traude mentioned that one of the the German names for the HRE was Erstes Reich (First Reich, or empire). The second German Reich came with German unification in the 19th century.

Hitler chose to call his territorial expansion in the twentieth century "The Third Reich."

Rich

Traude S
December 19, 2005 - 10:01 am
RICH, exactly. Thank you. This shows how Hitler came to his term of the "third" Reich.
I did not want to branch out any further since I was already 'after the fact' and we are again in Scandinavia. Even so, the information is useful, I believe. Again, thank you .

MeriJo
December 19, 2005 - 03:09 pm
Traude:

Thank you for the information about Tuscia - It was a new term for me. I see that the rule of the H. R. E. extended as far south as Rome and included ancient Etruscan sites.

Bubble
December 20, 2005 - 01:12 am
To-day I received a quote which seems to put succinctly what we have reading about here:

"In all history there is no war which was not hatched by the governments, the governments alone, independent of the interests of the people, to whom war is always pernicious even when successful."
-Leo Tolstoy, author (1828-1910)

robert b. iadeluca
December 20, 2005 - 04:43 am
"One must expect a strong government after a conquest.

"William set up or deposed knights and earls, bishops and archbishops and abbots. He did not hesitate to jail great lords and to assert his right over ecclesiastical appointments against the same powerful Gregory VII who was in these years bringing the Emperor Henry IV to Canossa.

"To prevent fires he ordered a curfew -- i.e. a covering or extinction of hearth fires and therefore in winter retirement to bed -- by eight p.m. for the people of England.

"To finance his spreading government and conquests he laid heavy taxes upon all sales, imports, exports, and the use of bridges and roads. He restored the Danegeld which Edward the Confessor had abolished.

"When he learned that some Englishmen, to elude his fingers, had placed their money in monastic vaults, he had all monasteries searched and all such hoards removed to his own treasury.

"His royal court readily accepted bribes and honestly recorded them in the public register. It was frankly a government of conquerors resolved that the profits of their enterprise should be commensurate with its risks."

How does that expression go? -- "Follow the money."

Robby

Rich7
December 20, 2005 - 06:28 am
Durant said it was the mandatory covering or extinction of hearth fires at night. Looked it up under word origins, and sure enough, curfew is a corruption of the French expression "couvre feu" (cover the fire).

More French impact on the English language since the Norman conquest.

Rich

Malryn (Mal)
December 20, 2005 - 06:49 am

It's not on the topic, but it certainly suits the season.

I shop, therefore I am: Shopping in the Renaissance
Mal

JoanK
December 20, 2005 - 09:24 am
BUBBLE: thanks for the Tolstoy quote. I'm taking it over to our discussion of the American Revolution (1776). We'll see if it applies there.

MAL: thanks for the Shopping book. It looks fascinating. Too bad it's so expensive -- I'd buy it.

Justin
December 20, 2005 - 03:24 pm
The Danegeld, you will remember, was a tax of two shillings on land holders to be paid as a bribe to invading Danes or as a fund for the support of opposition troops. When the Danes were absorbed into the English population the Danegeld was suspended. However, Willy thought he was protecting the English against marauders by marauding himself and there fore reinstated the tax. It remained in force well past Henry 11, a Plantagenet. It was used in Henry's time to rebuild fire damaged churches.

robert b. iadeluca
December 20, 2005 - 06:02 pm
"The Norman clergy shared in the victory.

"The able and pliant Lanfranc was brought in from Caen and was made Archbishop of Canterbury and first minister to the King. He found the Anglo-Saxon clergy addicted to hunting, dicing, and marriage and replaced them with Norman priests, bishops, and abbots.

"He drew up a new monastic constitution, the Customs of Canterbury, and raised the mental and moral level of the English clergy.

"Probably at his suggestion William decreed the separation of ecclesiastical from secular courts, ordered all spiritual matters to be submitted to the canon law of the Church and pledged the state to enforce the penalties fixed by ecclesiastical tribunals.

"Tithes were levied upon the people for the support of the Church. But William required that no papal bull or letter should be given currency or force in England without his approval and that no papal legate should enter England without the royal consent.

"The national assembly of the bishops of England which had been part of the Witan was hereafter to be a distinct body and its decrees were to have no validity except when confirmed by the King."

Are we talking about separation of church and state?

Robby

Traude S
December 20, 2005 - 07:07 pm
Re the separation between church and state,
ROBBY, I am tempted to say there was no separation betwen church ad state as we understand the term.

What existed instead from the Middle Ages through successive centuries were two gigantic spheres of influence, two entities, the Church, and the Holy Roman Empire, more precisely the pope(s) and the emperor(s) in continuous rivalry for power and domination. Power and domination shifted back and forth between the two "camps", if I may use the term. But the alliances were fluid rather than fixed.

I fact the Church itself was a party to various wars, not directly, of course, but through the service of mercenaries who did the actual fighting. By the samae token the Church was an active partner and a beneficiary in the peace negotiations.

The papal "bulla", = a complete "ban", was the most powerful instrument imaginable at the time. An individual who had received this sign of the pope's displeasure or condemnation became an outcast. unable to function with nowhere to turn (unless and until pardoned).

There's the historic example of Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV who waited in the snow outside a papal residence at Canossa for three days until Pope Gregory VII pardoned him.
Martin Luther escaped to the castle of a Protestant nobleman where he was beyond the reach of the pope.

Justin
December 21, 2005 - 12:08 am
The Papacy functioned in England at the pleasure of the King. No Bulls and no Legate without royal permission effectively controlled much of the power of the Pope in England. Church and state were one in England in the sense that the King was the boss. William picked his own people to run the church in his domain and fortuneately he picked some good people. He asked Cluny for help but was denied. So he picked Lanfranc for Archbishop of Canterbury. Saint Augustine had started the Anglo Saxon church at Canterbury with an old building of Roman design. Lanfranc, an Italian lawyer and monk undertook the job for William at the insistence of the Pope. He built the first full example of a building in the Romanesque style. Very little is visible today of the Lanfranc building but one can walk in the cloister and see the columns and low wall of Lanfranc and know something of what he tried to do. He is still remembered by the monks of Christ's Church when they pray in the chantry chapel. This fellow died in 1089, was never canonized, but is still remembered in prayer.

Rich7
December 21, 2005 - 07:20 am
Traude and Justin,

The scope of knowledge you each bring to the subject amazes me every time either of you makes a posting. Don't ever leave this discussion group, please.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
December 21, 2005 - 03:37 pm
All deserved compliments to Traude and Justin but unless we all post, there is no discussion group.

Any comments in reaction to Post 428?

Robby

Rich7
December 21, 2005 - 05:20 pm
From Durant's words about his rule, William clearly comes across as a strong leader. The Domesday census, drastic political restructuring, instituting measures to keep papal influence at a minimum, curfews, taxes, imprisoning opposition, demanding 60,000 landowners travel to Salisbury to pledge fealty to the king,... all were put into place with such efficiency that you have the feeling that William had his agenda for England drawn up in detail before he even set foot on English soil.

Rich

Justin
December 21, 2005 - 06:03 pm
We havn't experienced Williams invasion yet. We know that he came ashore while Harold was in the north engaged in another scuffle. He picked the high ground and won at the battle of Hastings. But what of the invasion itself. That was not a small accomplishment.

Hitler, you will recall, had the Britons reeling. He had troops in France where William massed his troops but Hitler did not invade. The Vikings came to Briton across the Channel but they came in small groups. William's invasion was a large, perhaps, vast organized movement.

Think of what Eisenhower had to do going the other way. I think of the many invasions I participated in on Pacific islands and so I am familiar with the complexity of the planning required. I am amazed that William was able to accomplish these landings and deployment in 1060.

By 1100 the French were crossing the Adriatic on the first Crusade. That crossing and invasion was more sporatic and haphazard and less organized. Some centuries earlier Caesar built bridges across the Rhine and moved his troops to an invasion but the Roman troops were organized and diciplined. William's accomplishment is simply astounding.

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2005 - 04:27 am
"The results of the Norman Conquest were limitless.

"A new people and class were imposed upon the Danes who had displaced the Anglo-Saxons who had conquered the Roman Britons who had mastered Celts. Centuries would elapse before the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic elements would reassert themselves in British blood and speech.

"The Normans were akin to the Danes but in the century since Rollo they had become Frenchmen. With their coming the customs and speech of official England became for three centuries French.

"Feudalism was imported from France into England with its trappings, chivalry, heraldry and vocabulary. Serfdom was more deeply and mercilessly imposed than ever in England before. The Jewish moneylenders who came in with william gave a new stimulus to English trade and industry.

"The closer connection with the Continent brought to England many ideas in literature and art. Norman architecture achieved its greatest triumphs in Britain. The new nobility brought new manners, fresh vitality, a better organization of agriculture. The Norman lords and bishops improved the administration of the state.

"The government was centralized. Though it was through despotism, the country was unified. Life and property were made more secure and England entered upon a long period of internal peace.

"She was never successfully invaded again."

Your thoughts, please, about the England which later led to the formation of the United States?

Robby

Traude S
December 22, 2005 - 06:36 am
A strange phenomenon manifests itself here this morning: I type a post and when I send it, only part of it is actually THERE.

Will try again to post when my baking is done and I have more time.

Bubble
December 22, 2005 - 06:48 am
I don't see any post of yours today, Traude...

Robby,why I never thought England had led to the formation of the US? Somehow I was under the impression that the settlers were those fleeing for their freedom from all of Europe or needed food and work while willing to start anew. I must have missed something.

Each new conquest, each new wave brings with it another culture that gets amalgamated to what exists, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. Here unity brought a time of peace allowing greater development. The French have always prided themselves of being more cultured...

MeriJo
December 22, 2005 - 12:41 pm
I see the Domesday Book as a first attempt of a nation to record the ownership of property and establish a base describing the wealth of a nation.

Here we see another bit of movement toward the governance of a nation in an orderly fashion.

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2005 - 01:47 pm
Bubble:-England led to the formation of the U.S. by the way it treated the colonists. Sometimes things don't happen as planned.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2005 - 02:26 pm
Thomas a Becket

robert b. iadeluca
December 22, 2005 - 02:36 pm
"It is an adage in England that between two strong kings a weak king intervenes.

"But there is no limit to the number of intermediate middlings. After the Conqueror's death his eldest son Robert received Normandy as a separate kingdom.

"A younger son, William Rufus (the Red, 1087-1100), was crowned King of England on promising good behavior to his anointer and minister Lanfranc. He ruled as a tyrant until 1093, fell sick, promised good behavior, recovered, and ruled as a tyrant until he was shot to death, while hunting by an unknown hand.

"The saintly Anselm, who succeeded Lanfranc as Archbishop of Canterbury, withstood him patiently and was sent back to France.

"A third son of the Conqueror, Henry I, recalled Anselm.

"The prelate-philosopher demanded an end to the royal election of bishops. Henry refused. After a tedious quarrel it was agreed that English bishops and abbots were to be chosen by cathedral chapters or the monks in the presence of the king and should do homage to him for their feudal possessions and powers.

"Henry loved money and hated waste. He taxed heavily but governed providently and justly. He kept England in order and at peace except that with one battle -- at Tinchebrain in 1106 -- he restored Normandy to the British crown.

"He bade the nobles 'restrain themselves in dealing with the wives, sons, and daughters of their men.' He himself had many illegitimate sons and daughters by various mistresses but he had the grace and wisdom to marry Maud, scion of both the Scottish and pre-Norman English kings, thereby bringing old royal blood into the new royal line."

The intermarrying of royalty from various nations has already interested me.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 22, 2005 - 06:58 pm

Thomas a Becket

Traude S
December 22, 2005 - 07:08 pm
BUBBLE, since I had no time to resend the post, only one paragraph of which showed, I deleted it for the sake of simplicity.

It was really a follow-up to ROBBY's # 428.
ROBBY and JUSTIN, you were right. I was referring to the Holy Roman Empire and the state of affairs between church and state in it .
England, of course, was never a part of it.

P.S. My text is scrolling to the right ... Is yours too ?

Sunknow
December 22, 2005 - 10:52 pm
No, mine is not scrolling to the right. Center in normal place.

However, you ask the question several (3+) hours ago. It may be fixed by now. I don't have that problem very often.

Sun

Hats
December 23, 2005 - 02:42 am
Mal, thank you for the link with Thomas a Beckett. That sword above his head tells a lot about his life, doesn't it? I don't know much about his life. What I do know has always fascinated me. I would like to read a whole book about his life.

robert b. iadeluca
December 23, 2005 - 03:35 am
"In his last days Henry made the barons and bishops swear fealty to his daughter Matilda and her young son, the future Henry II. But on the King's death, Stephen of Blois, grandson of the Conqueror, seized the throne and England suffered fourteen years of death and taxes in a civil war marked by the most horrible cruelties. Meanwhile Henry II grew up, married Eleanor of Aquitaine and her duchy, invaded England, forced Stephen to recognize him as heir to the throne and, on Stephen's death, became king.

"So ended the Norman and began the Plantagenet dynasty. Henry was a man of strong temper, eager ambition, and proud intellect, half inclined to atheism. Nominally master of a realm that reached from Scotland to the Pyrenees, including half of Frence, he found himself apparently helpless in a feudal society where the great lords, armed with mercenaries and fortified in castles, had pulverized the state into baronies.

"With awesome energy the youthful king gathered money and men, fought and subdued one lord after another, destroyed the feudal castles and established order, security, justice, and peace. With a masterly economy of cost and force he brought under English rule an Ireland conquered and despoiled by Welsh buccaneers.

"But this strong man, one of the greatest kings in England's history, was shattered and humbled by encountering in Thomas a Becket a will as inflexible as his own and in religion a power then mightier than any stte.

"Thomas was born in London about 1118 of middle-class Norman parentage.

"His precocious brilliance of mind caught the eye of Theobald, Archbishop of Canterbury who sent him to Bologna and Auxerre to study civil and canon law. Returning to England he entered orders and soon rose to be Archdeacon of Canterbury.

"But, like so many churchmen of those cenbturies, he was a man of affairs rather than a clergyman. His interest and skill lay in administration and diplomacy. He showed such ability in these fields that at the age of thirty-seven he was made secreatary of state.

"For a time he and Henry accorded well. The handsome chancellor shared the intimacy and knightly sports, almost the wealth and power of the King. His table was the most sumptuous in England. His charity to the poor was equaled by his hospitality to his friends. In war he led in person 700 knights, fought single combats, planned campaigns.

"When he was sent on a mission to Paris his luxurious equipage of eight chariots, forty horses and 200 attendants alarmed the French who wondered how rich must be the king of so opulent a minister."

Giant oaks from little acorns grow.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 23, 2005 - 04:51 am
This arial view of ST THOMAS BECKET'S CANTERBURY shows the extent of this historical site. When we see only a facade, it is hard to imagine what lies behind. I don't know what remains of it but it must have been quite impressive at the time.

Hats
December 23, 2005 - 05:25 am
Eloise, good link! Oh my goodness!!

kiwi lady
December 24, 2005 - 12:20 am
Santa is right now circling NZ. He is in standby mode ready to descend when darkness falls and the children begin to slumber.

I wish all my cyber friends a very Merry Christmas, A Happy Hannukah and for those of no faith Happy Holidays.

Carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
December 24, 2005 - 06:13 am
"Christmas Eve" by Moffatt



You can't believe everything you hear
And only half of what you see
But you can't deny the magic of a Christmas tree
It can melt a heart of stone
Bring warmth into a home
Give you strength when your alone on Christmas Eve
The message is so real
That's exactly how I feel
For the feelings everywhere on Christmas Eve



This Christmas Eve
Hang up your guns
This Christmas Eve
Aim with your heart
This Christmas Eve
We can change the world
We can all be one
There's a child inside of us
There's a child that needs your trust
Open up your heart to everyone
This Christmas Eve



There's a light that shines above
It's a symbol of our love
Like the star upon the tree in our living room
So I believe it's true
It's wrapped inside of you
The gift of love comes through on Christmas Eve



This Christmas Eve
Hang up your guns
This Christmas Eve
Aim with your heart
This Christmas Eve
We can change the world
We can all be one
There's a child inside of us
There's a child that needs your trust
Open up your heart to everyone
This Christmas Eve



This Christmas Eve
This Christmas Eve
We can change the world
We can all be one
There's a child inside of us
There's a child that needs your trust
Open up your heart to everyone
This Christmas Eve

Scrawler
December 24, 2005 - 10:26 am
Thanks for the Christmas Eve Poem, Robby.And Kiwi Lady I wish I lived where you are - Christmas would get to me sooner. I feel like getting into a sleigh and dashing through the snow, but I'll settle for a car with a good heater and drive.

Peace to you all!

MeriJo
December 24, 2005 - 01:11 pm
Thank you for the Christmas Tree poem, Robby and your greetings Kiwi Lady and Scrawler!

Merry Christmas Everyone

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 24, 2005 - 02:53 pm
"THE TWELVE DAYS OF CHRISTMAS", ANIMATION

JOYEUX NOËL

Justin
December 24, 2005 - 02:56 pm
Good tidings everyone. This is the time of year when people celebrate the birth of a child and the role of women in creation. Yes, it is Christmas but it also much more. Everyone can share in the joy of this birth as a symbol of the continuity of human life.

Be merry and joyful everyone for tomorrow morning the white whiskered fellow who came to NZ today may be stuck in your chimney.

Rich7
December 24, 2005 - 03:41 pm
Seasons' Greetings to everyone.

Rich

Malryn (Mal)
December 25, 2005 - 06:07 am

Christmas Memories by Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca

Malryn (Mal)
December 25, 2005 - 06:42 am

Five Generations of Adventurous Women by Eloise de Pelteau

Malryn (Mal)
December 25, 2005 - 06:58 am

The Chickadee by Marilyn Freeman

Rich7
December 25, 2005 - 07:36 am
Mal, Eloise, Robby,

Very, very, nice.

Thank you for bringing these to us today, Mal.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
December 26, 2005 - 05:43 am
In this discussion group we have visited Pompeii and other disasters. What have we learned about HUMANKIND? Are we indeed blind?

Robby

Sunknow
December 26, 2005 - 11:17 am
Centuries-Old Religious Secret Uncovered in Portugal

http://www.newsfactor.com/news/Secret-Synagogue-Found-in-Portugal/story.xhtml?story_id=111004SMSWWU

(The article in our Newspaper had a photograph not available here)

Sun

MeriJo
December 26, 2005 - 12:31 pm
That is an interesting article, Sunknow. There is in Toledo, Spain, a medieval Sephardic synagogue. The Jews have had a tragic history, due to ignorance.

Robby, that trait of ignorance and lack of retention or accepting historical knowledge of different localities is what your article on "humankind" seems to allude.

Justin
December 27, 2005 - 12:12 am
There is a popular tendency to view the evils of the past as something apart from us modern thinkers. We don't quite excuse the evil but we minimize it. The more distant from us the evil the easier it is to write it off to ignorance.

Of course evils such as the Spanish and Portuguese conversions were the product of ignorance. But to fail to recognize and give voice to the cause of that ignorance and it's prevalence and persistance in society strikes me as irresponsible. If it were ignorance then that produced the Marranos it was ignorance in our generation that produced the holocaust, and the civil rights suppression, and it is ignorance now that attacks gays and women.

Will society ever overcome the ignorance that causes such evils as these.I don't think so. We are capable of caring for the homeless, the aged, the poor, and the sick without a tag message promoting exclusivity. But we are at the same time reluctant to challenge our most comfortable institutions.In doing so one can only hurt friends by speaking out so it is better to go along and get along and ignore the root causes of society's evils.

Bubble
December 27, 2005 - 01:58 am
Thanks Sundown, it was a timely article. Hanuka commemorates a miracle happening after the Temple was desecrated. For me the Marranos worshipping was a miracle of faith during the hardship of inquisition. I always have a special thought for the Marranos of Spain and Portugal when I lit the Hanuka candles.

Hats
December 27, 2005 - 02:09 am
Thank you for the wonderful poetry and prose. I enjoyed each piece. Thank you.

Hats
December 27, 2005 - 02:15 am
Sunknow, thank you for the article link.

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2005 - 03:58 am
Magna Carta

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2005 - 04:12 am
"Richard I the Lion-Hearted succeeded without challenge to his father's throne.

"Son of the adventurous, impulsive, irrepresible Eleanor, he followed in her steps rather than in those of the somber and competent Henry. Born in Oxford in 1157, he was delegated by his mother to administer her dominion in Aquitaine. There he imbibed the skeptical culture of Provence, the 'gay science' of the troubadours and was never afterward an Englishman.

"He loved adventure and song more than politics and administration. He crowded a century of romance into his forty-two years and gave to the poets of his time the compliment of imitation as well as the encouragement of patronage.

"The first five months of his reign were spent in gathering funds for a crusade. He appropriated for the purpose the full treasure left by Henry II. He removed thousands of officials and reappointed them for a consideration. He sold charters of freedom to cities that could pay and acknowledged Scotland's independence for 15,000 marks -- not that he loved money less but adventure more.

"Within half a year of his accession he was off to Palestine. He cared as little for his own safety as for others' rights. He taxed his realm to the utmost and squandered revenue in luxury, feasting and display.

"But he galloped through the final decade of the twelfth century with such bravado and bravery that his fellow poets ranked him above Alexander, Arthur, and Charlemagne."

Is this why all of us school children read about him?

Robby

Bubble
December 27, 2005 - 04:51 am
Someone encouraging care-free fun and entertaining will always attract attention and inspire poets or novelists better than the sedate if competent administrator which would be deemed boring.

Malryn (Mal)
December 27, 2005 - 07:03 am

Richard the Lion Hearted

Hats
December 27, 2005 - 07:08 am
The photo of the church nave makes me want to study not only Romanesque architecture but all types of architecture. What distinguishes Romanesque architecture from other types of Architecture?

Mal, thanks for interesting link.

winsum
December 27, 2005 - 01:16 pm
Speaking out is GOOD. Please continue to do so. . . .Claire

Justin
December 27, 2005 - 03:57 pm
Hats: Romanesque architecture is heavy, ponderous, and dark. It is compression architecture. It is the weight of stone upon stone that makes it's walls stand. Entry ways (portals and windows) are formed by rounded arches in the Classical Roman style. The formations are an outgrowth of the Roman barrel vaults. The Basilica of Constantine at Rome and Santa Apollonaire at Ravenna are early examples. The roots of the Romanesque lie in the Arch of Constantine and the compression techniques of the Pantheon and Colosseum.

The period in architecture generally considered as Romanesque is from 1000 to 1200 CE. This was a period of transition in architecture. The movement was from classical forms to the Gothic and on the way Early Christian and Byzantine methods were applied giving results that varied from place to place. The results were named Italian Romanesque, French Romanesque , Early and Late Norman and these were characterized by changes in vaulting, the addition of interior arcades,addition of rib vaulting,addition of interior columns and a foot print shift from basilica to cruciform- all resulting in a reduction in interior light. As a result, when you have seen one Romanesque Chruch you have not seen all Romanesque churches for they are not alike except that they rely upon compression and exhibit rounded arches.

Compare San Ambrosio with the Benedictine Abbey of Cluny and the Church of Vezelay in France. You will see clearly, the effects of compression on design, the rounded arches in portals and in windows,and the effects of Mohammudan and the Byzantine on the "Romanesque".

,

robert b. iadeluca
December 27, 2005 - 06:30 pm
"He fought and loved Saladin, failed and swore to conquer him, turned homeward and was captured on the way (1192) by Duke Leopold of Austria, whom he had offended in Asia.

"Early in 1193 Leopold surrendered him to the Emperor Henry VI who held a grudge against Henry II and Richard. Despite the law, generally recognized in Europe, against the detention of a Crusader, Henry VI kept the King of England prisoner in a castle at Durnstein on the Danube and demanded for him from England a ransom of 150,000 marks ($15,000,000) -- double the whole annual revenue of the British crown.

"In the meantime Richard's brother, John, tried to seize the throne. Resisted, he fled to France and joined Philip Augustus in attacking England. Philip, violating a pledge of peace, attacked and seized English possessions in France and offered great bribes to Henry VI to keep Richard prisoner. Richard fretted in comfortable durance and wrote an excellent ballad appealing to his country for random.

"Through this turmoil Eleanor governed successfully as regent with the wise counsel of her justiciar Hubert Walter, Archbishop of Canterbury but they found it hard to raise the ransom. Finally released (1194), Richard hurried to England, levied taxes and troops and led an army across the Channel to avenge himself and Britain against Philip. Tradition holds that he refused the sacraments for years lest he be required to forgive his faithless enemy.

"He recovered all the territory that Philip had captured and resigned himself to a peace that allowed Philip to live. In the interlude he quarreled with a vassal, Adhemar, Viscount of Limoges, who had found a cache of gold on his land. Adhemar offered Richard a part, Richard demanded all, and besieged him.

"An arrow from Adhemar's castle struck the King and Richad Coeur de Lion died in his forty third year in a dispute over a mess of gold."

Let me see if I have this straight. Emperor Henry VI hated both Henry II and Richard. Duke Leopold also hated Richard. So Duke Leopold presented Richard as a gift to Henry VI who kept Richard, the King of England, as a prisoner in luxury where Richard spent his time writing ballads.

While Richard is writing poems, his brother John tries to become King of England, fails, and visits Philip Augustus in France from where he attacks his own homeland. Philip "nationalizes" (is that the word) English property in France while offering money to Henry VI so that Richard wouldn't be let loose. Henry VI (who apparently hates Philip) lets Richard go anyway and Richard dashes across the channel, taxes everyone, raises an army, and goes back across the channel (no Chunnel in those days) to fight Philip where he de-nationalizes the English property.

Back at the ranch (castle) Eleanor is doing perfectly well running the show without Richard while playing footsie with the Archbishop of Canterbury. Isn't it interesting that she couldn't find enough money to have Richard released? Richard, finding that the income from taxes was not enough, tries to unearth some gold he learned was on the property of the Viscount of Limoges. The Viscount is understandably unhappy about this and an arrow from his castle -- shot by someone who will be forever anonymous - strikes Richard dead.

When we were kids we played King of the Hill and, if I remember correctly, it wasn't that much different from this.

Robby

Justin
December 27, 2005 - 08:14 pm
Hollywood has depicted Richard as a kindly king who was well loved by his subjects. He is the hero of Robin Hood who on his return to England makes everything that was amiss aright. He tosses mean old John off the throne, sees to it that Robin Hood and his merry band are pardoned and the maid Marion is betrothed to Robin of Lochesly.

There is another side to Richard-a kind of male bonding side, that is interesting as well.It has been said that he and Phillip had an intimate relationship in progress. Who knows where the truth lies with this guy? He is the stuff of legends.

MeriJo
December 27, 2005 - 08:48 pm
Saying that the evils of the past are due to ignorance is not in my view a minimization of the evil. I believe it is the truth, and I also believe that in order to outline the particular period in history would take up more time than we have allotted to read the rest of these volumes.

I agree that all the travails of history are due to ignorance as mentioned. But, gradually, knowledge is being distributed and properly applied and some evils can be overcome. Also, this advance will not occur in our time. Some people believe there will be a millenium of peace, however.

Sometimes people learn better, but others come along and distort the correct procedure, and it is back to the beginning again.

Hats
December 28, 2005 - 01:56 am
Justin, thank you. I did notice the rounded arches. You gave me plenty of answers for such a broad question.

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2005 - 05:51 am
"Richard's brother John succeeded him after some opposition and distrust.

"Archbishop Walter made him swear a coronation oath that his throne was held by the election of the natiion (i.e. the nobles and prelates) and the grace of God. But John, having been false to his father, his brother, and his wife was not sorely hampered by one more vow.

"Like Henry II and Richard I he gave little evidence of religious belief. It was said that he had never taken the Eucharist since coming of age, not even on his coronation day. The monks charged him with atheism and told how, having caught a fat stag, he had remarked:-'How plump and well fed is this animal! and yet, I dare swear, he never heard Mass' --which the monks resented as an allusion to their corpulence.

"He was a man of much intellect and little scruple, an excellent administrator, 'no great friend to the clergy,' and therefore, said Holinshed, a bit maligned by monastic chroniclers -- not always in the wrong, but often alienating men by his sharp temper and wit, his scandalous humor, his proud absolutism and the tax exactions to which he felt driven in defending Continental England against Philip Augustus.

"In 1199 John secured permission from Pope Innocent III to divorce Isabel of Gloucester on grounds of consanguinity and soon thereafter he married Isabella of Angouleme despite her betrothal to the Count of Lusignan. The nobility of both countries took offense and the count appealed to Philip for redress.

"About the same time the barons of Anjou, Touraine, Poitou and Maine protested to Philip that John was oppressing their provinces. By feudal fealties going back to the cession of Normandy to Rollo, the territorial lords of France, even in provinces owned by England, acknowledged the French king as their feudal suzerain.

By feudal law John, as duke of Normandy, was vassal to the king of France. Philip summoned his royal vassal to come to Paris and defend himself against divers charges and appeals. John refused. The French feudal court declared his possessions in France forfeited and awarded Normandy, Anjou and Poitou to Arthur, Count of Brittany, a grandson of Henry II.

"Arthur laid claim to the throne of England, raised an army, and besieged at Mirabeau Queen Eleanor who, thought eighty, led a force in defense of her unruly son. John rescued her, captured Arthur, and apparently ordered his death. Philip invaded Normandy. John was too busy honeymooning at Rouen to lead his troops.

"They were defeated. John fled to England and Normandy, Maine, Anjou and Touraine passed to the French crown."

The King of England owed loyalty to the King of France? Interesting.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
December 28, 2005 - 07:20 am
The Christian Roots of Capitalism

Rich7
December 28, 2005 - 08:16 am
Mal,

That's a very interesting article (book review?). I've always wondered why capitalism developed and succeeded first in the West.

The author makes an interesting statement in that area:- "While the other world religions emphasized mystery and intuition, Christianity alone embraced reason and logic as the primary guide to religious truth."

I feel that Christianity, itself, depends greatly on mystery and intuition, but perhaps less so than the other world religions.

Rich

Rich7
December 28, 2005 - 08:36 am
Why all the interest in Richard I? He was swashbuckling!

Hollywood made no less than twelve films about Richard the Lion Hearted, the first being Cecil B. Demille's "The Crusades."

He provided everything Hollywood needed. Wars, chivalry, religion, knights, Crusades, banners, maidens, villains, intrigue, kings, queens, castles, moats, and armies in shining armor.. What more does a historical novel writer or a film producer need to capture his audience's imagination?

Rich

MeriJo
December 28, 2005 - 10:55 am
That article, Mal, is very interesting. It is an unexpected context.

It may be thought, with regard to reason and logic, however, that the parable of the talents is recalled here. One does not hide one's talent, but uses it for progress and personal advancement which leads to benefit for others. There must be a generosity of spirit here as well.

Very little mystery in Christianity in and of itself, I think. Usually, the dogmatic beliefs are, and they stand alone, but all else is pretty practical. The intuition may come from accumulated knowledge - educated guesses, so to speak.

Justin
December 28, 2005 - 02:52 pm
I must read Stark's book before commenting. On the surface,it appears to be just another effort to Christianize modern accomplishments while instilling some borrowed credibility in the Christian idea.

The hypothesis is interesting but hardly credible. The heart of capitalism lies in trade and the opportunity to turn a profit. Catholicism declared the profit motive a sin and prohibited charging a price for the use of money thereby restricting trade. If any religion contributed to the growth of capitalism it was surely not Catholicism but Judaism.Judaism recognized the value of money and bankered trade in the world.

kiwi lady
December 28, 2005 - 03:16 pm
The Christian message to me is socialism not capitalism. Do not confuse socialism with Communism I say this because to my astonishment I find Americans in general view socialism as a dirty word because they see no difference between iron curtain communism and socialism. Iron curtain communism is very different from socialism. In fact it was a perverted form of communism. I suppose I will tread on someones toes by remarking on the above. However it amazes me to this day the view on socialism.

Looking at photos from Turkey the other day it is incredible the different influences found in the buildings there. There is even the Building style that Louis the sixteenth favoured. I got to see many buildings interior and exterior that Cenk and Vanessa photographed recently. I guess it is not surprising. Cenk said the original Turks were like Mongolians and were nomadic. They looked like Mongolians and then we got the Ottoman Influence.

carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
December 28, 2005 - 03:33 pm
Further comments on Durant's words in Post 478?

Robby

Justin
December 28, 2005 - 04:42 pm
Kiwi:It is interesting you find Christianity socialist. I found Jesus to be communist as did Durant. I agree with you. There is a difference between the two. Americans do think of communism as it was implemented by the Soviet Union but we know there are many variations in implemtation of both systems of social planning.

Justin
December 28, 2005 - 04:57 pm
Feudalism and warfare make strange bedfellows. William, who was Duke of Normandy and King of England also owed allegiance to the King of France. The same was true of Richard and John but that didn't keep them from disliking one another or coveting one another's goods. Eleanor, who was married to both Phillip and to Henry had a similar problem. The Acquitaine was hers and not until she gave it to Richard did enmity develop between Phillip and Richard who then owed Phillip allegiance. There are modern day examples of family squabbles as well. Remember, the German Kaiser and the King of England were both products of Victoria. What a mess that prompted.

Traude S
December 28, 2005 - 08:34 pm
The time with my daughter is precious and has left me little time for the computer. I just came in to check the posts of the past few days.

KIWI is right : Americans generally do not distinguish between socialism and communism. The very word "social" is suspect. But the two systems are NOT synonymous, even if Durant may have thought so.
With respect, he made other pronouncements (based perhaps on preconceived notions) with which, forgive me, I emphatically disagree.

Traude S
December 28, 2005 - 08:59 pm
Durant must have been impressed by Richard the Lionhearted ("Richard Lõwenherz" in German), to judge from his loving description.

In "The Victory of Reason : How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism and Western Success", Rodney Starks makes a rather bold assertion that I, for one, am not willing to accept, much less adopt, without reading the book first. The title of the book review is the reviewer's choice and catch word.

In the very first paragraph the reviewer speculates on the (probably differing) reactions to the book by "religious conservatives" versus those of "secular liberals". It seems not to have occurred to Jean Barker that not all liberals are "secular" but that there are actually Christians among them . Nor are all conservatives necessarily religious (specifically evangelicals), in my understanding of her terms.

Have I missed something in the last few days ? Are we discussing capitalism and its origins ?

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2005 - 05:44 am
You are right, Traude. We went off topic. If you look at the GREEN quotes above, you will see that we are (supposed to be) talking about King John and leading up to the Magna Carta.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2005 - 05:53 am
"Pope Innocent III, at odds with Philip, had done what he could to help John.

"John now quarreled with Innocent. On the death of Hubert Walter the King persuaded the older monks of Canterbury to elect John de Gray, Bishop of Norwich, to the vacant see. A group of younger monks chose Reginald their subprior, as archbishop. The rival candidates hurried to Rome seeking papal confirmation.

"Innocent rejected them both and appointed to the see Stephen Langton, an English prelate who for the past twenty-five years had lived in Paris and was now a professor of theology in the university there. John protested that Langton had no preparation for the office of primate of England, a position involving political as well as ecclesiastical functions.

"Ignoring John's demurrers, Innocent, at Viterbo in Italy, consecrated Stephen archbishop of Canterbury. John defied Langton to set foot on English soil, threatned to burn the cloisters over the heads of the rebellious Canterbury monks and swore 'by the teeth of God' that if the Pope laid an interdict on England he would banish every Catholic clergy man from the land and would put out the eyes and cut off the nose of some of them for good measure.

"The interdict was pronounced. All religious services of the clergy in England were suspended except baptism and extreme unction. Churches were closed by the clergy, church bells were silenced and the dead were buried in unconsecreated ground. John confiscated all episcopal or monastic properties and gave them to laymen.

"Innocent excommunicated the King. John ignored the decree and waged successful campaigns in Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

"The people trembled under the interdict but the nobles acquiesced in the spoliation of Church property as transiently diverting the royal appetite from their own wealth."

The church-state "war" begins. Your comments, please?

Robby

Rich7
December 29, 2005 - 06:02 am
Interdict: Wikipedia Encyclopedia:-

An ecclesiastical penalty which usually suspends all public worship and withdraws the church's sacraments in a territory or country.

Rich

Rich7
December 29, 2005 - 06:17 am
Even after looking up the meaning of the word "interdict," I am having trouble understanding Durant's last sentence:

"The people trembled under the interdict but the nobles acquiesced in the spoilation of Church property as transiently diverting the royal appetite from their own wealth."

Does everyone else understand that sentence? I don't. From whose own wealth? The people's? The nobles'? The Church's? The royals'?

Rich

Bubble
December 29, 2005 - 06:19 am
To what extremes they could go. Lucky they didn't have nuclear bombs.

Rich, the king could take the wealth of those nobles if he fancied it, so they were happy to let him take riches from the clergy and monasteries instead.

Scrawler
December 29, 2005 - 12:14 pm
When the people trembled was it because of the loss of sacraments or what John was doing to them. It seems we've come full circle here. Not to long ago everybody was going on a crusade to save their "souls" [at lest for the lower classes] but now that the sacraments had been taken away from them, what were they to do?

Justin
December 29, 2005 - 02:19 pm
First the papacy (church, clergy etc) convinces folk they have an immortal soul and then that their soul is at risk if they stay away from the sacraments. Once that idea is firmly in place control of the population is easy. Interdiction is the controling tool. One removes access to the sacraments and thus dooms all to eternal pain and suffering. The wonderful, promised,life after death is no longer available. That's a powerful tool. It's not as powerful as a nuclear arsenal but it's pretty powerful.

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2005 - 04:44 pm
"Proud of his apparent victory, John offended many by his excesses.

"He neglected his second wife to beget illegitimate children upon careless mistresses -- jailed Jews to milk their money from them -- allowed some imprisoned prelates to die of hardships -- alienated nobles by adding insults to taxes -- and strictly enforced the unpopular forestry laws.

"In 1213 Innocent used his last resort. He promulgated a decree of deposition against the English King, released John's subjects from their oath of allegiance, and declared the King's possessions to be now the lawful spoil of whoever could wrest them from his sacrilegious hands.

"Philip Augustus accepted the invitation, assembled an impressive army and marched to the Channel coast. John prepared to resist invasion but now he discoveed that the nobles would not support him in a war against a Pope armed with physical as well as spiritual force.

"Furious against them and seeing the imminence of defeat, he struck a bargain with Pandulf, the papal legate. If Innocent would withdraw his decrees of escommunication, interdict, and deposition and would change from foe to friend, John pledged himself to return all confiscated ecclesiastical property and to submit his crown and his kingdom to the Pope in feudal vassalage.

"It was so agreed. John surrendered all England to the Pope and received it back, after five days, as a papal fief subject ot perpetual tribute and fealty."

I am giving this nation to you and in five days you will give it back, only now it still belongs to you. "Discretion is the better part of valor."

Robby

Rich7
December 29, 2005 - 05:25 pm
Thank you, Bubble. You did make it clear for me.

Rich

Justin
December 29, 2005 - 05:53 pm
Feudalism made strange bedfellows.

Rich7
December 29, 2005 - 05:58 pm
The once fiercely independent, impertinent, and irreverent King John seems to have turned into a wimp, handing his nation and throne to the Pope in feudal vassalage after a few edicts and threats from Rome.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
December 29, 2005 - 06:00 pm
YES.

Justin
December 29, 2005 - 11:50 pm
Why do you suppose Innocent suspended all sacraments except Baptism and Extreme Unction? What is it about those two rites that made them exceptions? I'm guessing, of course, but one rite occurs at the beginning of a Christian life and the other at the end of life. Innocent's intent was to punish and perhaps use the people's plight to influence John. It was not to prevent new members from entering the Christian life nor was it to prevent the dead from achieving their reward. Suppose that Baptism and Extreme Unction were removed.Would that hurt the Vatican (Church, Clergy etc.)more than King John? What's happening here, MeriJo?

Bubble
December 30, 2005 - 01:38 am
It is the Baptism that makes people Catholic, so removing it would successfully ban future generations to become so. Extreme Unction is the key for the after death life, without it one would be lost in limbo. The Church did want to prosper and increase. By allowing these rites, the Church knew its members would put pressure on the higher authority to "behave" in dealing with the Vatican..

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2005 - 05:50 am
"John embarked for Poitou to attack Philip and commanded the barons of England to follow him with arms and men. They refused.

"The victory of Philip at Bouvines deprived John of German and other allies to whom he had looked for aid against an expanding France. He returned to England to face an embittered aristocracy. The nobles resented his inordinate taxation for disastrous wars, his violations of precedent and law, his bartering of England for Innocent's forgiveness and support.

"To force the issue, John required of them a scutage -- a money payment in lieu of military service. They sent him instead a deputation demanding a return to the laws of Henry I which had protected the rights of the nobles and limited the powers of the king.

"Receiving no satisfactory answer, the nobles collected their armed forces at Stamford. While John dallied at Oxford they sent emissaries to London who won the support of the commune and the court.

"At Runnymede on the Thames, near Windsor, the forces of the aristocracy encamped opposite the few supporters of the King. There John made his second great surrender and signed (1215) Magna Carta, the most famous document in English history.

The Great Charter deserves its fame as the foundation of the liberties today enjoyed by the English-speaking world. It was indeed limited. It defined the rights of the nobles and the clergy far more than of the whole people. No arrangements were made to implement the pious gesture of Article 60. The Charter was a victory for feudalism rather than for democracy.

"But it defined and safeguarded basic rights. It established habeas corpus and trial by jury. It gave to an incipient Parliament a power of the purse that would later arm the nation against tyranny. It transformed absolute into limited and constitutional monarchy."

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
December 30, 2005 - 05:53 am
Here, in detail, are the words of the MAGNA CARTA. What are your reactions to the various articles in the document?

Robby

MeriJo
December 30, 2005 - 10:37 am
Justin:

Baptism, makes the individual free of original sin, and therefore able to receive the remaining six Sacraments. In Extreme Unction - the Last Rites - the individual, usually, if able, receives Penance and the Holy Eucharist (Holy Viaticum). It is an anointing where the priest, by anointing with holy oil one's hands, feet and forehead forgives any sin committed using these particular parts of the body.

The people knew they would receive all the pertinent Sacraments in these two.

I never read that a pope refused the Sacraments to a whole population because of the actions of its ruler. That is difficult to believe even for medieval times.

On edit:

Just did some research: This includes history about the Magna Carta:

Interdict of Innocent III

I'm still learning!

Rich7
December 30, 2005 - 11:23 am
Thanks, MeriJo for the link on King John and the Magna Carta. I learned a lot reading it, especially the discussion of "Freemen." I was inclined to read the word "Freemen" in the Magna Carta as "everyman."

It turns out that very few people under King John were "Freemen." The vast majority of the people of what was then England were peasants, and they got practically nothing from the Magna Carta.

Rich

mabel1015j
December 30, 2005 - 12:51 pm
It certainly clarified, concisely, the story of KIng JOhn and all that came w/ him......jean

Justin
December 30, 2005 - 04:06 pm
Merijo; Your definition of Baptism and Extreme Unction confirms our understanding of those rites but the question remains. Why were those two allowed and not the others. If one is to "interdict" by closing churches and forbiding priests to function why not go all the way. Knock out the sacraments completely. The Interdict made it impossible to find "holy ground" in England, so why allow Extreme Unction? Bubble has the obvious answer, I think.

Justin
December 30, 2005 - 04:11 pm
Robby: Thanks for the link on Magna Carta. Habeas Corpus and jury trial were major accomplishments in a period when trial by ordeal was still practiced.

kiwi lady
December 30, 2005 - 08:27 pm
You are right the peasants got nothing from the Magna Carta. Somewhere here I have a family will from the 1600s. It was an extremely enlightened one for the day. The widow got a very good settlement and one of the properties to live in for life. I have read other wills where the widow was beholden entirely to the eldest son. My British ancestors must have been quite progressive. I think the inheritance laws which were in place in the 1600s carried on much as laid out in the Magna Carta. There does not seem to be much change in inheritance laws until the early twentieth century.

MeriJo
December 30, 2005 - 09:21 pm
Justin:

My link may explain this more succinctly.

Both were to be administered when the individual was in extremis in order to save one's soul. An interdict was not as severe a punishment as excommunication, so perhaps that was the reason they were allowed. In either case, the devout would be unhappy with the state of affairs.

I don't know how much impact the common folks being under an interdict would bring pressure upon the king. They were beholden to the king and served at his pleasure.

MeriJo
December 30, 2005 - 09:27 pm
The serfs or peasants truly had no rights - Magna Carta notwithstanding - as their status in the political structure was one of being "owned" by their noble ruler who needed them to cultivate the land and work to maintain the fiefdom. It took a few more years to grant true freedom to ordinary folks. The Magna Carta was the first halting step toward individual freedom.

Justin
December 30, 2005 - 10:48 pm
MeriJo. Unfortunately, the link on the interdiction fails to explain the reason Innocent chose to exclude Baptism and Extreme Unction in the Interdiction of England. You seem to suggest that because interdiction is less severe than excommunication it is to be expected that two sacraments would be left intact. But again , why those two? It is an interesting issue. Is it not? Bubble, of course, may have already supplied the answer. I just thought some of your Catholic references might have offered something else. But I guess not.

Rich7
December 31, 2005 - 07:40 am
The Church had a good thing going for itself. It was an arrangement that said to the people, "You give the Church what we want, now (power, money, land, homage, whatever), and we promise to pay you back after you die. Trust me."

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
December 31, 2005 - 08:04 am
It is appaling what people say about the actions of members of a certain church. Church members, from the top echelon to the bottom are human beings and as such fall into the same category as other people whether they are members of a street gang or members of a caritative organization. They are all imperfect and even there, there are degrees of imperfection. Taking a sentence out of context of a book, holy or not holy dissociates it from the whole book.

The guru in this link might be Hindu, but he could easily be Muslim, Hebrew, Christian or athirst, it is the philosophy behind it that is interesting and worth reading.

What is religion? It is the reaction of the whole man, whole person, to the whole of creation. Religion does not mean Hinduism, Christianity or any kind of 'ism' or fundamental, denominational section. Religion is not what you do, but what you are. You cannot be something different within yourself and start doing something which is religious in its nature. Religion is your encounter with God, not encounter with a temple or a church or a textbook or a scripture

CAN RELIGION BE APART FROM A CHURCH?

MeriJo
December 31, 2005 - 10:38 am
I think Eloise has the answer for religion. Religion is the abiding by the particular philosophy for living one's life.

Baptism is a Sacrament of the Dead. As far back as I can remember about the Catholic Church as taught by the nuns which would be to 1927 when I began first grade, Baptism may be administered by anyone, even a non-Catholic, a layperson, with the right intention. That may not have been the case in Innocent's time, but since Baptism is the Sacrament that removes original sin for Catholics especially, it is critical and must be received before any other Sacrament may be administered.

As for Extreme Unction, it is a significant and important Sacrament for the individual in extremis, as I explained. I can only guess since I have not a reference for this, that these two Sacraments were intended to save the individual's soul, and Innocent whose business it was primarily to save souls would allow these in an interdict. Innocent, in my opinion, was making a point to pressure John. In those days the Church wielded great power. Innocent was pushing his way to the hilt.

I'll see what I can find.

On Edit:

Innocent brought the doctrine that since the spirit take preeminence over the body, and since the Church rules the spirit and earthly monarchs rule the body, earthly monarchs must be subject to the pope. Immediately upon election, he set out to make the pope an ecclesiastical ruler of the world with secular political power.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0176.htm

Still looking for the specific reason for those two Sacraments.

MeriJo
December 31, 2005 - 02:26 pm
Justin:

About Interdicts:

Read under "General Local Interdict"

I think my explanations were correct.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08073a.htm

Justin
December 31, 2005 - 04:13 pm
MeriJo: Your link was somewhat helpful. Apparently the Pope has some flexbility in choosing sacraments to exclude. Some Popes chose not to exclude Extreme Unction and others chose to exclude Penance and Viaticum (but not the whole of Extreme Unction). It's nice that there have been several interdictions to compare.

Your responses have been fine, Merijo, we just have not come to a resolution of the question. It is now clear that the Pope has some freedom of choice in what he deems "necessary." That tends to support the harsh reality of Rich's and Bubble's response. Popes do live in the real world once in awhile as Eloise suggests.

Justin
December 31, 2005 - 04:30 pm
Eloise: I don't want to drift off subject. It is too easy to do here. But you were apparently quoting some one in your last post who said," Religion is your encounter with God not an encounter with a temple or a scripture."

You don't really accept that definition. Religion is the infrastructure invented by man to direct one to a god of someone else's choosing. When you commune with your God that's a personal thing not requiring the support of a religion. Everything you have said in this discussion so far indicates that to me.

robert b. iadeluca
December 31, 2005 - 04:55 pm
Shall we get back to the Magna Carta?

"John, however, had no idea that he had immortalized himself by surrendering his despotic powers or claims.

"He signed under duress and on the morrow he plotted to annul the Charter. He appealed to the Pope and Innocent III, whose policy now required the support of England against France, came to the defense of his humiliated vassal by proclaiming the Charter void and forbidding John to obey or the nobles to enforce its terms. The barons ignored the decree.

"Innocent excommunicated them and the citizens of London and the Five Ports. But Stephen Langton, who had led in forumulating the Charter, refused to publish the edict.

"Papal legates in England suspended Langton, promulgated the decree, raised an army of mercenaries in Flanders and France and with it ravaged the English nobility with fire and sword, plunder, murder, and rape.

"Apparently the nobles had no dependable public support. Insted of resisting with their own feudal levies they invited Louis, son of the French King, to invade England, defend them and take the English throne as his reward. Had the plan succeeded, England might have become part of France.

"Papal legates forbade Louis to cross the Channel and escommunicated him and all his followers when he persisted. Louis, arriving in London, received the homage and fealty of the barons. Everywhere outside of mercantile London John was victorious and merciless.

"Then, amid the energy and fury of his triumph, he was struck down by dysentery, made his way painfully to a monastery, died at Newark in the forty-ninth year of his age."

Excommunications here and there and everywhere including all the citizens of London. I wonder if they knew it.

Robby

3kings
December 31, 2005 - 05:16 pm
Justin, you remark "When you commune with your God that's a personal thing not requiring the support of a religion."

Surely, when you have a close and personal relationship with God, you are a religious person. One cannot separate those two concepts. If you have a belief in God, it follows that you are a religious person.

If you claim to be a religious person, then it follows you believe in a God.++ Trevor

3kings
December 31, 2005 - 05:38 pm
The fluidity of those times intrigues me. There seems to be no grand idea to which one side subscribes, and the an other opposes. Instead, we have a number of factions, any one of which maybe on one side at lunchtime, and vehemently opposed by evening.

It all reminds me of Hollywood stories about the American Mafia. Clearly, no one could trust any ally. It was Individualism gone mad.. ++ Trevor

Justin
December 31, 2005 - 06:47 pm
Sorry Trevor, but religion does not have an exclusive grip on God. God is a concept independent of religion. Religions may think they have exclusive access to God but that's what causes all the trouble.

Justin
December 31, 2005 - 06:57 pm
Boy, Innocent lll is something else. If he doesn't get his way he excommunicates whole cities and If that doesn't do it for him he hires a mercenary army and joins in the fun of rape and pillage and general warfare. And as Trevor says he attacks one king and country for breakfast and the opponent for dinner.

It is a comfort to know that John went off to glory with the trots.

mabel1015j
December 31, 2005 - 07:12 pm
Interesting what change of political bedfellows and religious policy there will be when it comes to collecting power and it just seems to be true at all times and in all places. When Durant mentioned that Eleanor didn't redeem Richard immediately, the theory has been put forward that she wasn't eager to get him back in power, she was enjoying being regent for the moment - even mothers can succumb. I agree, and smiled, at your "JOhn going off to glory.........." statement, Justin.

HAPPY NEW YEAR........JEAN

Justin
January 1, 2006 - 12:12 am
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE.

robert b. iadeluca
January 1, 2006 - 04:05 am
Any comments about Post 521?

Robby

Rich7
January 1, 2006 - 05:33 am
If it didn't involve real people, it would be comical. The barons and the king are having a political dispute, and the Pope is in danger of losing some of his holdings and influence, so the Pope excommunicates all the citizens of London and five other ports.

Sounds like Gilbert and Sullivan.

I wonder if Innocent III managed to keep a straight face when he made that announcement to his scribes.

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 1, 2006 - 06:30 am
Rich, Before I sign off for the day I wanted to say that I also found it comical. Imagine that if it weren't for the dysentery that killed Louis, the whole world might be speaking French today instead of English, but I deleted it thinking it might be too irreverent.

MeriJo
January 1, 2006 - 11:00 am
Think about it, Justin. John was an absolute monarch with power over his people, especially, the serfs who were his absolute vassals. If they were to complain and be heard, it was likely that if they didn't loose their heads they would lose their tongues. I do believe they were not as focused upon the antics of the king and the pope. They were contending with their real world. The Magna Carta was the first break in the hold that absolute monarchism held over a subjected people.

And think about this, too. The Pope and John were vying for supremacy. The Magna Carta, I think, may have had an impact on the temporal power of the Popes. This document gave a nudge toward the eventual concept of self-rule. Just a first step!

Traude S
January 1, 2006 - 02:31 pm
MeriJo, precisely.

The two forces who fought for supremacy and dominion were the papacy and the Emperors, including the English monarchs.
quod erat demonstrandum

Justin
January 1, 2006 - 04:10 pm
Eloise: John had the trots and departed this scene with some reluctance. But had that not happened, a noble regent might not have been required and Louis might not have been sent home to France. I wonder, as you do, had Louis been made King of England, would we be speaking English. The Duke of Normandy gave us many French cognates. King Louis might have done the same, especially if the use of French was confined to the court.

Justin
January 1, 2006 - 04:28 pm
Article 36, "no man shall be imprisoned long without trial" is a regal concession we still have trouble applying, even in this modern constitutionally guided US.

Article 41 served to remove some tolls that hindered trade and gave merchants safe haven in England. The wool trade benefited enormously and in the next century the article supported central Italy and the Netherlands.

Justin
January 1, 2006 - 05:02 pm
MeriJo: There is no question that Innocent lll, the monarchs of Europe, and the barononial nobles were in contention for "king of the hill". The Magna Carta, a document, strengthening the hand of the nobles, indicates the essense of the conflict.The opening phrase is,"John, by the grace of God, King of England... to his archbishops, bishops, abbots, earls , and barons...." This opening phrase is the heart of the investiture issue and the blood that was spilled in its contention.

The appointment and subsequent consecration of Stephen Langton by Innocent is a violation of John's rights so he confiscates episcopal and monastic properties then returns them in exchange for relief from excommunication and interdiction and caps the bargain by selling England to the Pope. Had that gone uncontested, Eloise, we might be speaking Latin today.

kiwi lady
January 1, 2006 - 05:26 pm
Seems to me that there is always one or two nations seeking to be King of the Hill. I would have thought by now we could live in a world which existed in cooperation rather than some nation trying to be the Big Wheel. There is no honesty there is little cooperation. We say its a Global community but its mostly every man for himself and blow the others. Nothing changes!

3kings
January 1, 2006 - 06:00 pm
JUSTIN, I'm sorry too! As an atheist, I was happy to call myself irreligious. Now you suggest I can, with logic, admit to religious beliefs, even while disbelieving in God and acknowledging the probable truths expounded by Charles Darwin and followers, and also the Cosmologists, Quantum theorists etc.

I have to say, you may just have ruined my whole belief system..... Well, almost. LOL ++ Trevor

MeriJo
January 1, 2006 - 09:35 pm
Justin:

I think the kings at some point in England and various kingdoms in Europe at the time had taken it upon themselves to do the electing/appointing of the clergy/hierarchy.

Here in the Magna Carta, John agrees, specifically that the Church in England shall be free and independent of the crown. This is, I believe, the point of the interdict. Apparently, Stephen Langton did become elected to Canterbury as its archbishop. Nothing was sold. What was done was a definite "separation between the Church and State" as Innocent assumed his right as Pope to approve of members of his hierarchy.

With regard to religion: "Religio - are", Latin verb, meaning to "re", "again" - "ligio", "bind". "Religare", infinitive. meaning "to bind again" or "retie". The word "religion" is associated with a system of belief for an individual - a system that guides one's conduct, involving a code of ethics and a philosophy. In the sense that this belief system involves a continuous and repetious pattern of conduct, the word meaning to "rebind" to such a pattern is seen in the meaning of "religion".

We already think of the Christian religion and the Buddhist religion, for example, but "humanism" can be thought of as a belief system or religion.

MeriJo
January 1, 2006 - 10:02 pm
Justin:

Boy, Innocent lll is something else. If he doesn't get his way he excommunicates whole cities and If that doesn't do it for him he hires a mercenary army and joins in the fun of rape and pillage and general warfare

I find your #525 quite mischievous if you meant it.

Innnocent III never left Rome once he was made Pope. The following link may be helpful.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08013a.htm

Re Investiture: You may have read of several causes with regard to the practice of investiture, but the one that I remember and can understand as being very disturbing for the Church at that time was the law of primogeniture.

The oldest, surviving son in the family of a noble would be the only heir eligible to the properties of the father upon the death of the father. Since, the clergy, generally, was exempt from property taxes, the family would scheme to get the son into the priesthood.

The son could be unsuitable for the ascetic and celibate life of a priest, could be a complete dolt, or lecherous, dishonest and have other unsavory characteristics, but in those earlier days of the Church in Europe the kings were very powerful and would appoint whomever they wished or were maneuvered into appointing as a candidate to the priesthood - often with the approval and influence of non-exemplary, hierarchical members of the clergy who were dishonest themselves in order to give a member of the nobility tax-free holdings.

This was a practice that many a Pope worked to correct.

Justin
January 1, 2006 - 10:21 pm
Trevor: I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusions you draw. Darwin's theories, cosmology, and quantum theory are concepts in the real world. We have been talking about theology. When I say that religions are an infrastructure designed to help one communicate with a god but are not necessary to achieve that end, I am talking about a theological tool,that may be applied or not applied as one chooses. Religion is not required to talk to a god. One may do that on one's own, without the assistance of soft or harsh voices, vestments, and ritual.

Justin
January 1, 2006 - 10:29 pm
Merijo. As Traude says, "Precisely." Religion is a system of belief.

Justin
January 1, 2006 - 10:41 pm
Merijo: Re 525. Durant meant it. Why shouldn't I mean it? There was no reason for the Pope to leave town to acquire a mercenary army in Flanders in order to attack his enemies. You really should buy a copy of Durant. The book is inexpensive on the internet and reading it would clear up some of the confusion we are experiencing. Robby's green quotes and typed messages are not always enough for clarity of message.

robert b. iadeluca
January 2, 2006 - 04:18 am
"A papal legate crowned John's six-year-old son as Henry III.

"A regency was formed with the earl of Pembroke as its head. Encouraged by this elevation of one of their number, the nobles went over to Henry and sent Louis back to France.

"Henry grew into an artist king, a connoiseur of beauty, the inspiration and financier for the building of Westminster Abbey. He thought the Charter a disintegrating force and tried to abrogate it but failed.

"He taxed the nobles within an inch of revolution always swearing that the latest levy would be the last. The popes needed money, too, and, with the king's consent, drew tithes from English parishes to support the wars of the papacy against Frederick II.

"The memory of these exactions prepared the revolts of Wyecliff and Henry VIII.

"Edward I was less a scholar than his father and more a king ambitious, strong of will, tenacious in war, subtle in policy, rich in strategems and spoils, yet capable of moderation and caution and of farseeing purposes that made his reign one of the most successful in English history.

"He reorganized the army, trained a large force of archers in the use of the longbow and established a national militia by ordering every able-bodied Englishman to possess and learn the use of arms. Unwittingly, he created a military basis for democracy. So strengthened, he conquered Wales, won and lost Scotland, refused to pay the tribute that John had promised the popes and abolished the papal suzerainty over England.

"But the greatest event of his reign was the development of Parliament. Perhaps without willing it, Edward became the central figure in England's finest achievement -- the reconciliation, in government and charcter, of liberty and law."

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." (Second Amendment to U.S. Constitution.)

Robby

MeriJo
January 2, 2006 - 11:21 am
Justin:

I already knew that the Popes as temporal rulers mounted their own armies. In those days, the holdings of the Pope were comparatively vast. My reference to your post was that it conjured up visions of the Pope raping and pillaging along with the less than principled members of his army.

Sorry, Justin, but I was the editor of my college paper for two years. I read things literally.

Justin
January 2, 2006 - 02:11 pm
MeriJo: What difference does it make whether the Pope or the Pope's representative does the raping and pillaging? The buck stops with the Pope. He gives the orders does he not?

Rich7
January 2, 2006 - 04:24 pm
Reading that Edward I abolished the papal suzerainty over England, and remembering John I's quarrels with the Pope, I'm learning that England's difficulty with Rome did not begin with Henry VIII. England's distrust of Rome goes back to its formative years as a nation.

Rich

MeriJo
January 2, 2006 - 06:09 pm
Justin:

The Pope cannot order anyone to commit sin. It is my understanding that because the Pope was a temporal ruler until 1929, he could mount an army to protect the lands the Church owned and the people who lived on the lands.

The Popes never led an army, but in the custom of the times did need to protect their people and properties in a military way when it was indicated.

Justin
January 2, 2006 - 07:12 pm
Merijo; In theory, it may not be possible for the Pope to order anyone to commit sin but in the real world ...well, see page 677. "Papal legates in England suspended Langton, promulgated the decree (Charter),raised an army of mercenaries in Flanders and France, and with it ravaged the English nobility with fire and sword,plunder, murder , and rape."

Rich; You are absolutely right. Problems between Church and England go back several centuries before Henry Vlll. It is essentially the Investiture Crisis that causes all the trouble. Henry ll encountered the problem with Becket and John encountered it with Langton. The problems of investiture ( not primogeniture) are at the root of most bloody encounters in Europe. The problem was not confined to England. In earlier periods it affectd the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope. We are witnessing a monumental cause of death and destruction to many thousands of innocent people.

Justin
January 2, 2006 - 07:15 pm
MeriJo: If you think the Popes never led an army, wait till you meet Julian. He will strain your defense.

Justin
January 2, 2006 - 07:32 pm
While the struggle between England the Papacy is in progress the Papacy is drawing a tithe from English parishes to support its attack upon Frederick ll. Nice, huh? We, the innocent ones in the world, always wind up paying the bill for our own abuse. Then we get on our knees and pay obeisance to the abusers.

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2006 - 05:08 am
The Growth of the Law

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2006 - 05:18 am
"It was in this period -- from the Norman Conquest to Edward II - that the law and government of England took the forms which they maintained until the nineteenth century.

"Through the superimposition of Norman feudal upon Anglo-Saxon local law, English law for the first time became national -- no longer the law of Essex or Mercia or the Danelaw but 'the law and custom of the realm.'

"We can hardly realize now what a legal revolution was implied when Ranulf de Glanville used this phrase. Under the stimulus of Henry II and the guidance of his justiciar Glanville, English law and courts acquired such repute for expedition and equity (tempered with corruption) that rival kings in Spain submitted their dispute to the royal court of England.

"Glanville may have been the author of a Treatise on Laws (Tractatus de legibus) traditionally ascribed to him. In any case it is our oldest textbook of English law.

"Half a century later (1250-6) Henry de Bracton achieved the first systematic digest in his five-volume classic On the Laws and Customs of England (De legibus et consuetudinibus Angliae)."

I would imagine that what we are reading now is exceedingly important because of the importance of English law's effect on American law.

Robby

MeriJo
January 3, 2006 - 12:32 pm
Justin:

There is a disinction here. What a pope cannot do is a law. What he chooses to do is the result of his own will.

This was the Medieval period, not only of western Europe, but also, of Christianity, which as you may notice as we read through Durant was itself going through a period of evolving. Together, these elements were forming a civilization. Neither was complete, nor have they completed its full potential.

This is what makes history so fascinating - the effects of strong personalities in high places upon the population. Put in perspective and with the realization that this is the way it was lends itself to the understanding that this is what happened - good or bad - this was it.

This, too, is why it is so important to learn the right ways and know about the wrong ways. This is an individual endeavor.

Pope Julius (Julian)

Giuliano della Rovere was born in 1443. There was amazement when he was elected Pope 60 years later, in 1503. The cardinal was a known troublemaker, "notoriously difficult by nature and formidable with everyone", in an age when no one expected Popes to be exactly holier than thou. The Papacy was a landowner, a political state, a diplomatic office - too important to be left to the clergy.

http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000717.html

Julius II was chiefly a soldier, and the fame attached to his name is greatly due to his re-establishment of the Pontifical States and the deliverance of Italy from its subjection to France

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08562a.htm

robert b. iadeluca
January 3, 2006 - 05:54 pm
Any comments about Post 552? The current sub-topic is Growth of the Law.

Robby

Justin
January 3, 2006 - 07:37 pm
Henry ll, a grandson of William, and the father of John, tried to unify the realm, to focus the power of law in his throne. Feudalism had dispersed jurisprudence among the land barons. Eleanor was reluctant to relinquish power in the Acquitaine. The Papacy challenged Henry's right to appoint an Archbishop and other episcopacies. The English nobility gave him feudal lip service but resented Henry's tax intrusions in their feifs. He was beseiged on all sides and thwarted in his quest to unify the realm and focus power in his throne. It is hard to imagine any significant gains being made in legal unification while he lived. I wonder if Durant was thinking of one of the later Henries.

MeriJo
January 4, 2006 - 11:25 am
Law was bound to develop as the population grew and conflicts between the kings and the popes increased.

Roman law had been preserved in written form and noted by those who were educated. So many people were illiterate that such knowledge slowly seeped out from the walls of the monasteries which housed the monks who were recording the antiquities. Life expectancies were short. This all came about in bits and pieces.

I would say that Durant explains that law gradually became important as civilization grew. The English kings recognized this tool of orderly living and began to make the proper records of law, adapting it to their notions of life. The Magna Carta indicates to me that much work had been done before making up that document.

I think this is what occurred.

Rich7
January 4, 2006 - 01:03 pm
What I found interestion was Durant's comment that the English courts had such a reputation for fairness that Spanish kings would bring their disputes to English courts for adjudication.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 5, 2006 - 12:00 am
"The King's rising need for money and troops forced the expansion of the Anglo-Saxon Witenagemot into the English Parliament.

"Impatient to raise more funds than the lords would vote him, Henry III summoned two knights from each county to join the barons and prelates in the Great Council of 1254.

"When Simon de Montfort, son of a famous Albigensian crusader, led a revolt of the nobles against Henry III in 1264, he tried to win the middle classes to his cause by asking not only two knights from each county but also two leading citizens from each borough or town to join the barons in a national assembly.

"The towns were growing, the merchants had money. It was worth while consulting these men if they would pay as well as talk.

"Edward I profited from Simon's example. Caught in the toils of simultaneous wars with Scotland, Wales, and France, he was constrained to seek the support and funds of all ranks. In 1295 he summoned the 'Model Parliament,' the first complete parliament in English history.

"His writ of summons read:-'What touches all should be approved by all and common dangers should be met by measures agreed upon in common.' So Edward invited two burgesses 'from every city, borough, and leading town' to attend the Great Council at Westminster. These men were chosen by the more substantial citizens in each locality.

"No one dreamed of universal suffrage in a society where only a minority could read. In the 'Model parliament' itself the 'commons' did not at once hold equal powers with the aristocracy. There was as yet no annual Parliament, meeting at its own will as the sole source of law.

"But by 1295 the principle was accepted that no statute passed by Parliament could be abrogated except by Parliament and in 1297 it was further agreed that no taxes were to be levied without Parliament's consent.

"Such were the modest beginnings from which grew the most democratic government in history."

True democracy on its way?

Robby

Sunknow
January 5, 2006 - 07:18 pm
First: "Henry III summoned two knights from each county to join the barons and prelates in the Great Council of 1254."

Later: "These men were chosen by the more substantial citizens in each locality."

How interesting to find out how it all began. Actually, the king was looking for men to 'second' his motion, what ever it was.

Later, the 'substantial citizens' wanted to sway the motions for their own benefit.

Yes, I guess you would call that Democracy. It still works pretty much the same way.

Sun

robert b. iadeluca
January 6, 2006 - 06:07 am
"The clergy only reluctantly attended this enlarged Parliament.

"They sat apart and refused to vote supplies except in their provincial assemblies. Ecclesiastical courts continued to try all cases involving canon law and most cases involving any member of the clergy.

"Clerics accused of felonies might be tried by secular authorities but those convicted of crime short of high treason were, through 'benefit of clergy,' handed over to an ecclesiastical court which alone could punish them.

"Moreover, most judges in secular tribunals were ecclesiastics for education in law was largely confined to the clergy.

"Under Edward I the secular courts became more secular. When the clergy refused to join in voting supplies, Edward I, arguing that those who were protected by the state should share its burdens, directed his courts to hear no cause in which a churchman was plaintiff but to try every suit in which a cleric was defendant.

"In further retaliation Edward's Council of 1270, by the Statute of Mortmain, forbade the grant of lands to ecclesiastical bodies without the royal consent."

A-ha! The familiar church-state dispute raises its ugly head. And complicated because those trained in law were trained by the church.

Robby

Justin
January 6, 2006 - 01:39 pm
The question of the Courts and their jurisdiction is the central issue in Henry ll vrs. Beckett. Henry in 1120 accepted penance for defying the clerical courts. A century later, Edward, reclaimed some of the power for secular courts by empowering the secular courts to try every case in which a cleric was a defendant. Edward did not back down as Henry did and as a result the power of English secular courts can be traced to this King.

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2006 - 07:50 am
The English Scene

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2006 - 08:02 am
"England in 1300 was ninety per cent rural with a hundred towns whose modern successors would rank them as villages and one city, London, boasting of 40,000 population -- four tims more than any other town in England but far inferior in wealth or beauty to Paris, Bruges, Venice, or Milan, not to speak of Constantinople, Palermo, or Rome.

"Houses were of wood, two or three stories high, with gabled roofs. Often the upper story projected beyond the one beneath.

"City law forbade emptying the end products of kitchen, bedroom, or bath through the windows but the remnants of upper stories often yielded to the convenience.

"Most of the slops from the houses found their way into the current of rain water that ran along the curbs. It was forbidden to cast feces, permissible to empty urinals, into this gutter stream. The municipal council did what it could to improve sanitation -- ordered citizens to clean the streets before their homes, levied fines for negligence and hired 'rakers' to gather garbage and filth and cart these to dung boats on the Thames.

"Horses, cattle, pigs, and poultry were kept by many citizens. But this was no great evil, since there were many open spaces and nearly every house had a garden.

"Here and there rose a structure of stone like the Temple Church, Westminster Abbey, or the Tower of London which William the Conqueror had built to guard his capital and shelter distinguished prisoners.

"Londoners were already proud of their city. Soon Froisart would say that 'they are of more weight than all the rest of England for they are the most mighty in wealth and men' and the monk Thomas of Walsingham would describe them as 'of all people almost the most proud, arrogant, and greedy, disbelieving in ancient customs, disbelieving in God."

Your comments, please, of England in that era? Would you have wanted to live there?

Robby

Bubble
January 7, 2006 - 10:20 am
It must have been a smelly town too.

Fifty years ago I visited for the first time the oriental Nazareth. In the commercial town, a ditch ran in the middle of narrow cobbled streets and carried water and refuse with it. Asses, dogs, chicken were moving freely and adding to the filth on the floor. With the smells of spices sold by the weight, fried sweet cakes on large platters (flies aplenty) and the pushing and shoving, I think it was a little like the London described. No, even though it was very picturesque, I would not want to live there.

Scrawler
January 7, 2006 - 10:23 am
About fifteen years ago we had a garbage strike where I lived in San Jose, California. It was in the middle of summer and we lived in a valley where the air was stagnet to begin with so the stink was unbelievable. It didn't take long before tons of garbage lay out in the sun. You literally couldn't open a window and we had no air conditioning - just fans. I think the strike lasted about two weeks before the city finally did something about it. Some of us hauled our stuff to the dump, but the prices at the dump had increased during the strike and besides there were certain things that they wouldn't take. No I can't say that I would have wanted to live in London during this period of time.

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2006 - 10:23 am
And that was only fifty years ago, Bubble. Amazing!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 7, 2006 - 06:02 pm
"Through these centuries the amalgamation of Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Danish, and Celtic stocks, speech and ways produced the English nation, language, and character.

"As Normandy fell away from England, the Norman families in Britain forgot Normandy and learned to love their new land. The mystic and poetic qualities of the Celt remained, especially in the lower classes but were tempered by Norman vigor and earthiness.

"Amid the strife of nations and classes, and the blows of famine and plague, the resultant Briton could still make what Henry of Huntingdon called Anglia plena iocis -- Merry England -- a nation of abounding energy, rude jests, boisterous games, grand fellowship, a love of dancing, minstrelsy, and ale.

"From thse virile loins and generations would come the hearty sensuality of Chaucer's pilgrims and the magnificent bombast of the cultured swash-bucklers of the Elizabethan age."

Do any of you recognize the England you know in this description?

Robby

MeriJo
January 7, 2006 - 06:43 pm
I saw "Starlight Express" at the Apollo Victoria theatre, and it had plenty of energy. Every actor rolled around and about the theatre - swooping up and down on roller skates and singing loudly into their personal microphones.

I liked the English food I had - particularly the offerings of the dessert tray.

Even liked the "white tea". Beautiful countryside seemed tranquil, red poppies and pink fireweed and Queen Anne's Lace - and the Lake District was especially pretty where one could buy a length of wool skirting and soft woolen sweaters - and be happy with viewing the gentle hills and shimmering lakes - in Surrey, just loved Beatrix Potter's home. It is a National Trust Site.

The wars of the medieval times were imagined by the windows in York's Cathedral - all of which had been shattered and then put together again - although not as the original design but in a kaleidscope of colored glass shards and pieces - such patience to restore damage of such great and unnecessary violence.

I could imagine Falstaff in one of the half-timbered houses of Chelsea. But, then - one would need to remember the dangers of the hygienic conditions of the times, and be grateful for modern improvements.

Didn't see much boisterousness - not even in the pub where I went, but I was grateful for the advice of the pharmacist at Boots who prescribed an antihistamine for my watery eyes caused by "vernal conjunctivitis."

That was a nice trip - saw lots of things and did lots of things - have written about them, but have no idea in which safe place I have stored the notes I made.

Justin
January 7, 2006 - 09:52 pm
Norman, Saxon, Celt and Dane melded over the years into a Tony Blair,and a Margaret Thatcher as well as a Mary Poppins, all Englishmen to the core. I can only hope we do as well with our blacks, our Asiatics, our Latinos, and our wasps. Let them meld over the centuries into Americans one and all. The English blending may have been as difficult ours but theirs was accomplished over centuries and therefore barely noticeable. We try to make the blend in a few short decades so it is very noticeable.

Sunknow
January 7, 2006 - 11:49 pm
Like Merijo, I have traveled in England, and did not witness much boisterousness. Once on a tour, I visited the 'old' England, from Stonehenge to Stratford-upon-Avon where Shakespeare and Ann Hathaway lived, and to London with its Palaces and more. Even a glimpse of the past is fascinating, but imagine living in those times of dreadful inconvenience.

I met more Englishmen on another trip when I stayed with friends and family in their homes just outside London. When you travel, you are exposed to what you are suppose to see and meeting the locals was easier on the this last trip.

I actually saw more of what Durant is describing when I lived in Germany, but that's off topic.

Justin - You are right, talking about the Englishmen blending over many centuries. Here in our country, we have barely started. My family came from both Ireland and England, and they came here in the 1700s, but Durant is talking about the 1300s (and earlier) and what may seem quaint now, must have been chaotic and unpleasant then. And it was the "blending" of all those people that caused more than a few wars, I imagine.

Sun

Bubble
January 8, 2006 - 01:24 am
In '61 when I lived in England (both in London and in Aylesbury, Bucks) I would never have recognized it as the same England described here. The influence of Q. Victoria was very evident. I remember an Italian friend in college remarking that the English were the people characterized by a stiff upper lip.

UK has changed a lot since then and one sees more of the "merry England" as described here and less of the "politically proper-mannered" of the previous era that I saw.

robert b. iadeluca
January 8, 2006 - 05:26 am
Ireland -- Scotland -- Wales

robert b. iadeluca
January 8, 2006 - 05:37 am
"In the year 1154 Henry II became King of England and an Englishman, Nicholas Breakspear became Pope Hadrian IV.

"A year later Henry sent John of Salisbury to Rome with a subtle message. Ireland was in a state of political chaos, literary decline, moral debasement, religious independence and decay. Would not the Pope permit Henry to take possession of the individualistic isle and restore it to social order and papal obedience?

"If we may believe Giraldus Cambarensis, the Pope agreed and by the bull Laudabiliter granted Ireland to Henry on condition of restoring orderly government there, bringing the Irish clergy into better cooperation with Rome and arranging that a penny should be paid yearly to the See of Peter for every house in Ireland.

"Henry was too busy at the time to take advantage of the nihil obstat but he remained in a receptive mood."

I always love the English names. Breakspear? Makes me think of Dickens.

I go under the assumption that the Pope thought this over carefully before making such a dramatic agreement. Ireland must have been in a terrible shape.

Robby

Justin
January 8, 2006 - 03:05 pm
Henry ll straightened out the Irish by encouraging Catholicism and the Irish were happy with that till Charles came along. Charles thought there were too many Catholics in Ireland and so he introduced a few thousand Scotch Prebyterians into the Northern landscape just to balance things a little. That led to the "Troubles" which have plagued this modern Irish century.

Malryn (Mal)
January 10, 2006 - 07:09 am

The last post in here was "02:05pm Jan 8, 2006 PT" ?

What's going on? What's happened to the second best discussion in SeniorNet? (The Writers Exchange WREX discussion, of course, is the best.)

S of C is not being pre-empted by that newcomer on the block, The Origins of Species discussion, is it? I certainly hope not.

Mal

MeriJo
January 10, 2006 - 01:52 pm
I understand that the Vikings damaged Ireland during the early medieval period. They did not appreciate the inclination of the Irish monks to educate and foster literacy among the Irish of the times. Instead they continued to harrass, pillage and demolish buildings, codexes, and artwork wherever they landed.

To give the Vikings their due, they did establish Ireland's first cities, Limerick, Cork, Wexford, Waterford and Dublin.

Yet, the fear of monks is well-illustrated in this four-line gloss;

Bitter is the wind this night
Which tosses up the ocean's hair so white.
Merciless men I need not fear
Who cross from Lothland on an ocean clear.


When the Vikings were vanquished in the early eleventh century, Irish society recovered, in the sense that the normal business of life sprang back in expectable patterns. But Ireland would never recover its cultural leadership of European civilization. Nevertheless, the Irish had already become the leaven of medieval civilization, the unidentified ingredient that suffused the bread of Europe, enabling it to breathe and grow___and escape the humorless confines of Roman uniformity and classical pessimism. From, "How the Irish Saved Civilization", The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe by Thomas Cahill.

"When Cahill shows the splendid results of St. Patrick's mission in Ireland____among them, the preservation and transmission of classical literature. . . he isn't exaggerating. He's rejoicing." (The New Yorker)

robert b. iadeluca
January 10, 2006 - 06:54 pm
I have said for years that the postings by the participants were the motor of the group. I was merely at the steering wheel. The number of postings dropped precipitously (the motor died) so there was no need for me to post new text by Durant if the interest wasn't there.

I am ready when the "gang" is ready.

Robby

Justin
January 10, 2006 - 10:30 pm
Henry ll received a Papal ok to straighten out the Irish but he found it a bitter pill to swallow. It's beautiful ports were attractive but it's royalty and its people were intractable.

I wonder if Robert Bruce is the model for Braveheart. Strongbow sounds like El Cid. Great warriors all.

Justin
January 10, 2006 - 10:35 pm
Waterford looks like an "in and Out" town. Henry ll landed there with 4000 warriors in 1171. My great grandfather packed up his family, carted them to Waterford and took ship from there to the US in 1830. Some day I will visit just to see what might have been for me.

MeriJo
January 11, 2006 - 09:09 am
Justin:

I thought William Wallace was "Braveheart."

In what way did Henry II have to straighten out the Irish? They had already been squashed quite a bit by the Vikings. Was he to give them a lift up with security, trade and money? The Vikings apparently wrecked the Irish's motivation to farm and prosper from the land, also. The forests had been denuded by the Vikings.

Waterford has great crystal. Your great-grandfather got out before the potato famine began in earnest.

Justin
January 11, 2006 - 02:54 pm
Merijo ; I have two pieces of that wonderful old Waterford crystal- a compote and a water pitcher. They were a gift from my grandmother whose Mom toted them all the way from Waterford.The edges are sharp enough to cut.

Robby told us the story of Henry's adventure with Ireland a few posts back. Pope Hadrian lV issued a Bull Laudibiliter granting Ireland to Henry on condition of restoring orderly government there, bringing the Irish clergy into better cooperation with Rome and applying Peter's Pense to every house in Ireland.

Justin
January 11, 2006 - 02:57 pm
I am sure you are right about Wallace and Braveheart. When Hollywood does these historical things they often take the lives and actions of several people and work it into one story that will last 90 minutes on the screen.

MeriJo
January 11, 2006 - 06:04 pm
As a girl, I read "The Scottish Chiefs" by Jane Porter, written right after the Napoleonic Wars- early 1800's. The book had beautiful N. C. Wyeth illustrations - Grandpa Wyeth, I think. The main character was William Wallace - I think Robert Bruce was an equally important character - one of the Scottish Chiefs. Braveheart was William Wallace.

I read Robby's post from Durant, but I wondered just what exactly did Henry II do. (After all the Irish had gone through no wonder they were intractable.)

As I understand it Henry II managed to get Irish nobles to capitulate without a fight, except for those from Ulster, two nobles, who just did not respond to Henry's invitation to meet with him, and therefore remained royal.

Yale University says there is some question as to the authenticity of Pope Hadrian's Bull, a preserved ancient document, giving Henry permission to invade Ireland. Doesn't sound like help to me.

Justin
January 11, 2006 - 06:32 pm
Help for whom? Not for the Irish certainly. But how about help for Hadrian.He benefited. The Irish clerics adopted the English and the Roman ritual.

Justin
January 11, 2006 - 06:47 pm
WE are not forced to rely on Cambrensis alone. A copy of the Bull must exist. The Papacy has never thrown anything away. The Vatican is a storehouse. John of Salisbury also wrote some stuff that may provide corroboration.

MeriJo
January 12, 2006 - 12:26 pm
St. Patrick was in Ireland long before either the Vikings or Henry.

I do think that the Roman/Latin ritual was the only one around in those days for Ireland/ Britain as the Eastern ritual pretty much remained in the Middle East but going as far west as Greece and the southern Balkan area. Besides, both rituals were in the process of development.

Adrian did get a pence a year from the Irish after Henry.

You're right, Justin. There is a written record of the investiture of Ireland.

It was during the Pope's stay at Beneventum (1156), as we have stated, that John of Salisbury visited him. "I recollect", he writes, "a journey I once made into Apulia for the purpose of visiting his Holiness, Pope Adrian IV. I stayed with him at Beneventum for nearly three months" (Polycraticus, VI, 24; P.L. CXCIX, 623). In another work, the Metalogicus, this writer says:

At my solicitation [ad preces meas] he gave and granted Hibernia to Henry II, the illustrious King of England, to hold by hereditary right as his letter [which is extant] to this day testifies. For all islands of ancient right, according to the Donation of Constantine, are said to belong to the Roman Church, which he founded. He sent also by me a ring of gold, with the best of emeralds set therein, wherewith the investiture might be made for his governorship of Ireland, and that same ring was ordered to be and is still in the public treasury of the King.

It will be observed that he says, "at my solicitation", and not at the request of Henry, and that he went "for the purpose of visiting" (causâ visitandi), not on an official mission. The suggestion that because he was born in England Adrian made Ireland over to the Angevin monarch, who was no relation of his does not merit serious attention. The Metalogicus was written in the autumn of 1159 or early in 1160, and the passage quoted occurs in the last chapter (IV, xlii; P.L., vol. cit., col. 945). It is found in all manuscripts of the work, one of which was written possibly as early as 1175, and certainly before 1200. Nobody questions the truthfulness of John of Salisbury, and the only objection raised to the statement is that it may be an interpolation. If it is not an interpolation, it constitutes a complete proof of the Donation, the investiture by the ring being legally sufficient, and in fact the mode used in the case of the Isle of Man, as Boichorst points out. Adrian's Letter, however, creates a difficulty. His Bull, usually called Laudabiliter, does not purport to confer Hibernia "by hereditary right", but the letter referred to was not Laudabiliter, but a formal letter of investiture, such as was used in the case of Robert Guiscard in Italy, e.g. "I Gregory, Pope, invest you, Duke Robert, with the land of", etc. (Ego Gregorius Papa investio te, Roberte Dux, de terra, etc.; Mansi, Coll. Conc., XX, 313). The question of the genuineness of the passage in the Metalogicus, impugned by Cardinal Moran, W.B. Morris, and others, must be kept quite separate from the question of the genuineness of Laudabiliter, and it is mainly by mixing both together that the passage in the Metalogicus is assailed as a forgery.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01156c.htm

The following is from the Yale University article.

Henderson's Note

The bull of pope Adrian IV., long has been, and still is, an apple of discord among scholars. Is it a genuine document or not ? The question is a weighty one, for the transaction it bears witness to was the first step towards the annexation of Ireland to England-an annexation which really took place, after a warlike expedition, sixteen years later. That a papal bull was dispatched to England about this time and concerning this matter is certain. That this was the actual bull sent is doubted by many-I myself am not among the number-from the fact that in form and wording it differs from other papal bulls of the time. The question is still being investigated, and we are promised a word from a certain Berlin professor whose authority is very great in such matters.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/medieval/bullad.htm

This has been an interesting detour.

Isn't it curious the way words can change meanings of things?

P. S. You must treasure your Waterford crystal very much. I have one piece of crysal I bought in an antique barn shop in Massachusetts fifty years ago that has the sharp edges of which you write, but I got no provenance for it. However, it is on display here at home - beautiful to look at, but I dare not use it. It is quite heavy and then, there are those sharp edges.

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2006 - 04:13 pm
Whenever participants here wish to move back to Durant's subtopic, I am ready to post the continuing text.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 12, 2006 - 04:53 pm

Please, ROBBY, get us back where we belong.

Mal

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2006 - 05:18 pm
Justin and MeriJo have been posting. Anyone else here interested in returning to the sub-topic?

Robby

Justin
January 12, 2006 - 05:56 pm
Merijo: Durant says the a synod of Irish prelates decreed that thereafter the ritual of the Irish church would conform to that of Rome. Obviously there was a difference. That makes three rituals. You might enjoy doing the research necessary to where the differences lie.

Justin
January 12, 2006 - 05:58 pm
"Up the Bruce", as they say in Scotland. Lets get back into it.

robert b. iadeluca
January 12, 2006 - 06:01 pm
Anyone else besides Justin and MeriJo?

Robby

MeriJo
January 12, 2006 - 09:28 pm
Justin:

There would be no third ritual. The Roman/Latin one would be correct.

I didn't think I was off-topic. Aren't we discussing Scotland, Wales and Ireland?

MeriJo
January 12, 2006 - 10:10 pm
Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald de Barry) was a distinguished writer, historian, and ecclesiastic of the early Middle Ages; b. in Manorbeer, Pembrokeshire, about the year 1147; d. probably between the years 1216 and 1220. His father, William de Barry, was one of the most powerful of the Welsh nobility at the time.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06568d.htm

Cambrensis seems to be the principal reference of Durant for this excerpt, however there is some question of the way he recorded history. He did not follow the chronology very well of the historical events of which he wrote.

His name was new to me and some of the things he is said to have written seemed uneven, so I checked him out.

One of the first writers to describe Irish music was the twelfth-century cleric Giraldus Cambrensis (which means "Gerald of Wales"). It's very interesting to scholars of this subject to have such an early source. . . If you are interested in music this following link is informative.

In general Giraldus was very critical of the Irish, saying that they were a bunch of idle louts who spent their time lazing about and growing their hair long, which makes him sound rather like a critic of the Sixties "counterculture". His positive comments on Irish music are the exception to his general attitude.

http://www.standingstones.com/giraldus.html

Justin
January 12, 2006 - 11:12 pm
Merijo: we are both on topic.We are dealing with issues Durant deals with in the section on Ireland and Scotland.

Durant certainly seems to be talking about an Irish ritual as opposed to Roman and Eastern. I think there are differences between Armenian, Greek, and Russian. I also think there are differences between medieval Latin,Victorian Latin,WWll Latin and contemporary Latin. We are just not looking carefully enough to see them. Much was changed in Vatican 11.

MeriJo
January 13, 2006 - 01:28 pm
Justin:

I am sure you are right. These are usually according to locale today. For example, the Filipino community celebrates during a feast-day Mass in honor of Mary with a very formal dance in the sanctuary. It is stately and elegant. Different to see.

In those days, I think that the Mass was developing its eventual form. The important thing was the celebrant depicting the Transubstantiation in a preface to Holy Communion. These are not many words. The prayers before and after that part could have been different.

This may be what was meant for the Roman rite - that this part would be as set by the Vatican.

Well, Justin, I became curious, because even though I attended many years of Catholic instruction, what I wrote above was only my own logic based on that. Anyway, I followed your suggestion and did the research. My concept is essentially right, but, oh! my! there is so much more that I did not know.

The following link seems to be the most comprehensive.

The Catholic Church knows only one Mass, developed and reformed in various eras and expressed in many rites, . . .

http://tcrnews2.com/genmass1.html

Malryn (Mal)
January 13, 2006 - 02:31 pm

ROBBY, to answer your question about whether there's anyone interested in returning to the subtopic I'll say I'd have much more interest in actively participating in this discussion if the focus was not so constantly and persistently on Religion with a capital R.

Mal

Justin
January 13, 2006 - 02:33 pm
Sure, the ritual varies from place to place and from time to time but the one essential element, that of transubstantiation is fairly constant.

Two things in the material you hooked me to appear to me unusual. First, Christ is referred to as Fruit. Lamb is one thing but Fruit is quite another. What are they talking about?

The other, all reference to the Church is feminine. The Church is constantly called "she".In view of their (its) disdain for women and the subordinate role it allocates to them, I wonder if we are not engaged in hypocracy in this case.

Justin
January 13, 2006 - 02:48 pm
Mal: Well taken. It is difficult not to deal with the topic because Durant drives us into it. It may, at th same time, be driving away many participants who are interested in history but not that of religion.

On the other hand, it is one's very reluctance to deal with this topic that lets us be abused by religion. We can talk about Germany and its ideologies and recognize the damage that group has done to civilization but religion is in many respects a similar entity that has done similar if not far worse damage to civilization. We cannot ignore either of these entities if we are ever to bring peace to the world.

While the topic may bore some folks it cannot be ignored and if it is ignored we have only ourselves to blame when church and state become one.

Malryn (Mal)
January 13, 2006 - 04:47 pm

JUSTIN, perhaps it might be a good idea to talk about the politics religions indulge in. Just because a religion is supposed to represent a Holy figure and Holy views, it doesn't necessarily follow that the behavior of various religious figures in history doesn't stem from the same greed-based, secular motives of the ordinary guy who foots the bill and works his backside off for all those cathedrals, temples, mosques, etc. and the people who live and work in them.

Mal

Justin
January 13, 2006 - 05:15 pm
Mal; I agree.

MeriJo
January 13, 2006 - 06:21 pm
Mal and Justin:

Your points with regard to religion are understood, but in my opinion both of you miss or ignore the role of the Church during the development of civilization. Here I refer to the Catholic Chuurch in the west. Durant does not discuss the effect of the particular religions of India, China, and Africa, but their different philosophies for living were very dominant there, too, and had a great influence there even to this day. Do you find that the impact of Hinduism, Buddhism, and tribal religions have particularly helped those respective nations in which they are dominant?

Religion did affect all human development - and in the West Christianity certainly had an impact on the development there. Today, the world reflects that influence of religion in all the various areas.

Focusing on the greed of the Catholic Church is misguided - There is/was no greed on the part of the Church. These grievous faults lie rather in the behavior of the various clerics. Just as politicians are divided between statesmen/women and self-serving politicians so one would find these same human frailities among clerics and those professing to be Christian or Catholic.

This is the way the world is - the good and the bad, the informed and the uninformed, the energetic, strong leader and the apathetic, weak leader, the successful, good person and the failed, bitter one.

In the United States it is more apparent because of our pluralistic mix of people. If one is different there must be something wrong about them. Unfortunately, this perception has not gone away through informed experience, but, if anything, has become more intensely averse.

The penchant among non-religious people seems to be to direct the "badness" of religion to "her" greed. Why is it considered greedy? Because it gives the appearance of wealth? Where?

Many clerics have no money, many churches have no money. Whatever they appear to have is from the donations of the faithful congregants. Also, depending on the management of pastor or bishop the parish may appear to be prosperous - especially if the congregation is made up of wealthy people.

The Church is referred as feminine, because, historically, it has been seen as a mother figure. "Mother Church" A mother is the individual seen as the one who guides, disciplines, instructs and protects the child.

That's it. I had better stop. There is no way to discuss the Age Of Faith, as Durant calls it, without referring to the Catholic Church.

Justin
January 13, 2006 - 07:57 pm
Merijo: We have already examined the religions of China, India, Africa, Middle east and Asia. It is now the turn of the west and Medieval Europe. If you would like to review our comments on those topics I am sure Robby can direct you to them. The damage wrought by other religions on civilization is similar. It varies only in degree.

It is not just people-good and bad- in religions who cause the damage to society. The problem is greater than that. I realize it is convenient to blame the adherants but they are only the tools of the evil. An entity that purports to have exclusive access to the divine, all others being wrong, is an entity intended to cause problems. The Catholic Chruch is not alone in that characteristic. There are evil men in politics, and in all the professions but politics and the professions are not evil in their intent.

I agree Merijo it is almost impossible to discuss "Age of Faith" without discussing religion. It is beginning to look as though we can not discuss "Age of Faith" for we are losing discussants. You and I are the pro and con discussants who should be able to give life to this conversation but we can not do it alone. We need interested pro and con supporters. A common proverb tells us that religion can not be discussed successfully in polite society. Many adhere to the ideas of religions but are bored with the topic once a few choices have been made. It is regrettable but evident.

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2006 - 07:57 pm
Following is my last post containing Durant's text. It was Post 573 made on January 8, one full week ago. Yes, it refers to the Pope, who is of course a religious figure, but there is a definite topic in the posting. It had to do with the political chaos in Ireland. It had to do with John of Salisbury, with literary decline and moral debasement. It had to do with the bull Laudabiliter. Anything else would be off topic.

No one is disputing the important role of the Catholic Church during the development of civilization. But that is much much too broad. Cathedrals have to be built stone by stone. To understand an entire cathedral, each stone, each gargoyle, each steeple much be examined in detail. This is what Durant has been doing paragraph by paragraph, page by page, chapter by chapter in his entire volume.

I respectfully disagree with you, Merijo, that "there is no way to discuss the Age of Faith without referring to the Catholic Church." He has been doing just that. He has discussed in detail (and all of us along with him) the Islamic Civilization and the Judaic Civilization. Regarding your comment that "Durant does not discuss the effect of the religions of India, China and Africa," he did indeed do that in his volume "Our Oriental Heritage."

All your comments about religion affecting all human development, the world reflecting West Christianity, whether or not the Catholic Church was greedy or not, the pluralistic mix of people in the United States, the amount of money that clerics do or do not have, etc. are all relevant to the topic of religion in general but -- and this the important point made not only by Mal but by numerous emails I have been receiving -- none of those topics have anything to do with Durant's text here below.

Unless we start to become more strict with ourselves and stick to the subtopics listed in GREEN above, this discussion group may have to close out.

"In the year 1154 Henry II became King of England and an Englishman, Nicholas Breakspear became Pope Hadrian IV.

"A year later Henry sent John of Salisbury to Rome with a subtle message. Ireland was in a state of political chaos, literary decline, moral debasement, religious independence and decay. Would not the Pope permit Henry to take possession of the individualistic isle and restore it to social order and papal obedience?

"If we may believe Giraldus Cambarensis, the Pope agreed and by the bull Laudabiliter granted Ireland to Henry on condition of restoring orderly government there, bringing the Irish clergy into better cooperation with Rome and arranging that a penny should be paid yearly to the See of Peter for every house in Ireland.

"Henry was too busy at the time to take advantage of the nihil obstat but he remained in a receptive mood."

I always love the English names. Breakspear? Makes me think of Dickens.

I go under the assumption that the Pope thought this over carefully before making such a dramatic agreement. Ireland must have been in a terrible shape.


Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 13, 2006 - 08:02 pm
Justin says to Merijo:-"It is beginning to look as though we can not discuss "Age of Faith" for we are losing discussants."

My previous posting expresses exactly what former participants are telling me in their emails. Very simply they are saying: "stick to the sub-topics as expressed in the Durant texts I am posting -- dont' talk about religion in general."

There is nothing to prevent you two from covering the pros and cons of Catholicism in private emails.

Robby

Justin
January 13, 2006 - 11:03 pm
Gotcha, Robby. I will conform. I do not wish to be the cause of the discussion breaking down. It is clear to me that strict adherence to the topic in green is essential to make this discussion continue to work.

Justin
January 13, 2006 - 11:17 pm
I hope this comment does not drive us back to an area I promised to avoid but... what does "nihil obstat" mean in this case?. I know from the study of Latin it translates as "nothing hinders" and that the term is generally used to indicate passage by a censor.In this case we are discussing a Bull given to Henry ll to invade Ireland and to straighten out some deviations from Roman and English expectations.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 14, 2006 - 04:00 am
I read S of C every day because I want to learn about our history, Durant does not preach, he is observing civilization development through the eyes of the historian and as archaeologists do, he describes concrete evidence of its progress by examining the remains that each civilization left behind as one succeeds the other.

When he wrote Egyptian history Christ was not born yet and people were driven by the same religious motives as they are today. It is a fact that does not need to be hammered in, it is what people are and that is not about to change.

Story of Civilization so far has inspired around 20 thousand posts since it began 4 years ago and to see this discussion go would be a great loss because everybody can learn from it. Participants can share their knowledge at whatever level of education they are. Nobody has the universal truth because it is what is in our heart.

Please let us not let this discussion go, as it cannot be replaced.

Malryn (Mal)
January 14, 2006 - 07:12 am

"In his attitude towards the ancient classics, John of Salisbury is far from regarding Aristotle as infallible; he is opposed to Plato, though he is fully conscious of Plato’s greatness. His favourite author is Cicero, and the purity of his own Latin prose has been justly praised. Caesar and Tacitus he knows solely by name; but in all the literature accessible to him he is obviously the best read scholar of his time. A humanist two centuries in advance of his age, he is eager to give the widest possible interpretation to 'whatsoever things were written aforetime for our learning.' "

More:

John of Salisbury. Bartleby.com

Malryn (Mal)
January 14, 2006 - 07:18 am

HENRY II

Malryn (Mal)
January 14, 2006 - 07:21 am

GIRALDUS CAMBRENSIS

Malryn (Mal)
January 14, 2006 - 07:25 am

NICHOLAS BREAKSPEAR, Background

Traude S
January 14, 2006 - 10:03 am
May I say that for my part I always enjoy and learn from MeriJo's and JUSTIN's posts; their prior knowledge and interpretation enhance the discussion, in my opinion.
As an admittedly infrequent poster I see no harm in expounding further on certain points in Durant's narrative to broaden our general knowledge.
Surely we are not asked to take Durant as our sole guide and THE definitive source?

MAL, you have made your dislike for organized religion abundantly clear, here and elsewhere, more than once. But how can anybody fail to see that religion, with or without a capital R, has been intimately linked with politics through the ages and continues to this very day ? That's either good or bad, depending on where one stands.
But can we totally ignore/dismiss the role of religion now ? And the answer is, no, we cannot.

All of this is historical fact,so I, frankly, don't understand why the subject of religion gets you so inordinately exercised.

Malryn (Mal)
January 14, 2006 - 10:30 am
It's okay, TRAUDE. It's Get Mal Week in WREX and all over, I guess.
The Story of Civilization discussion has succeeded for over four years because
the focus has been -- and is -- on ISSUES, not the PERSONALITIES of the PARTICIPANTS.
And now I'm graciously going to back out again.

Mal

Scrawler
January 14, 2006 - 10:51 am
"A year later Henry sent John of Salisbury to Rome with a subtle message. Ireland was in a state of political chaos, literary decline, moral debasement, religious independence and decay. Would the Pope permit Henry to take possesion of the individualistic isle and restore it to social order and papal obedience."

It would seem to me that Henry was more interested in Ireland as a political threat rather than anything else. Durant mentions Ireland as an individualictic isle. Could it be that Henry feared that Ireland politically was a threat to England and that is why he sent John of Salisbury to Rome? I can't see Henry being very concern with moral or literay decay of a country since that alone would not be a threat to England.

Usually, according to what I've been told, when you begin a sentence of various items - you begin with the most important item. In this case "political chaos" was listed first which would mean it was the most important.

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2006 - 12:40 pm
Maybe I have missed something, but I haven't noticed Mal saying that religion should not be discussed. What I have understood her to say was that it would be advantageous if we not broaden the topic of religion but to address the specifics in Post 573 -- e.g. Giraldus Cambrensis, Henry II, and Nicholas Breakspear -- and to do the same with each posting as we have been doing for four years without trouble.

In the previous posting Scrawler gives an example better than I could.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2006 - 12:59 pm
DURANT CONTINUES.

"In 1166 Dermot MacMurrough, King of Leinster, was defeated in war by Tiernan O'Rourke, King of Brefni, whose wife he had seduced.

"Expelled by his subjects, he fled with his beautiful daughter Eva to England and France and secured from Henry II a letter assuring royal good will to any of his subjects who should help Dermot to regain the Leinster throne.

"At Bristol Dermot received from Richard FitzGilbert, Earl of Pembroke in Wales, known as 'Strongbow,' a pledge of military support in return for Eva's hand in marriage and the succession to Dermot's kingdom.

"In 1169 Richard led a small force of Welshmen into Ireland, restored Dermot with the help of the Leinster clergy and, on Dermot's death, inherited the kingdom. Rory O'Connor, then High King of Ireland, led an army against the Welsh invaders and bottled them up in Dublin. The besieged made an heroic sortie and the ill-trained and poorly equipped Irish fled.

"Summoned by Henry II, Strongbow crossed to Wales, met the King and agreed to surrender to him Dublin and other Irish ports and and to hold the rest of Leinster in fief from the English crown. Henry landed near Waterford with 4000 men, won the support of the Irish clergy and received the allegiance of all Ireland except Connaught and Ulster.

"The Welsh conquest was turned into a Norman-English conquest without a battle. A synod of Irish prelates declared their full submission to the Pope and decreed that thereafter the ritual of the Irish Church should conform to that of England and Rome.

"Most of the Irish kings were allowed to keep their thrones on condition of feudal fealty and annual tribute to the king of England."

Any comments regarding this posting of Durant's text?

Robby

MeriJo
January 14, 2006 - 01:37 pm
Robby:

My apologies for not knowing about the Oriental Heritage. I'll look for all the previous books and their titles. I believe my ignorance there led to my last post.

I will do my best to conform to the discussion of issues as I do not want to be responsible for ending such an interesting discussion.

For my part, I do want to say that I try very hard to limit my Christian/Catholic explanations just because they tend to become lengthy. Because of that tendency, I have posted as small an excerpt as I could and then the link for those who wish to read the source.

I want to thank Scrawler for clearly explaining that it is the issue involved. I recall asking why there was disorder in Ireland and upon my research I learned that they had been bashed by years of Viking marauding to the point of where their forests had been denuded and their land compromised, eliminating their ability to provide for themselves via agricultural means diminished by these raids. Durant doesn't seem to have given the reason. I thought that was important.

Durant does tweak one's curiosity about certain historical events.

Traude S
January 14, 2006 - 02:18 pm
This is what MAL said in # 897 :

"Robby, to answer your question about whether there's anyone interested in returning to the subtopic I'll say I'd have much more interest in actively participating in this discussion if the focus was not so constantly and persistently on Religion with a capital R."

Finis

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2006 - 02:28 pm
MeriJo:-You obviously feel strongly about your religion and I respect you deeply for that. Some here are atheists and many have religions of their own. All we ask is that we keep our views balanced and realize that Durant's fourth volume, "The Age of Faith," covers much more than religion. Thank you for your statement.

His first volume was "Our Oriental Heritage," his second one "The Age of Greece," and his third one "Caesar and Christ." We covered all three of them in detail as we are now doing with his fourth volume." After completing this volume, we will take 2-3 weeks (perhaps four) off and then start the fifth volume, "The Renaissance." When we began this volume I said that we would cover 1000 years in 1000 pages of the volume. So far we have made almost 8000 postings.

I will post here a link for you to find our postings of the first volume. But please don't get so wrapped up in the Orient that you leave us here!

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2006 - 02:45 pm
MeriJo:-This is the link to the start of OUR ORIENTAL HERITAGE. This is the very first posting made in the entire series beginning over four years ago.

Robby

Justin
January 14, 2006 - 03:18 pm
Religion and the Catholic Church,its policies, and its idiosyncrasies are so bound up with the events of this period and the subsequent proto-renaisance that it is impossible to understand events without a clear picture of the role of the participants.

The green quotes can only serve as a beginning. Durant gives us a view of events and I think it is up to us to introduce whatever else may be relevant to the topic and to provide alternative views if such are possible.

When a king and a pope assume opposing postures I think it is important to understand the motives of each. One is political, the other often religious. These fellows have advisors who provide alternative positions from which a king and a pope may choose. If we are to understand what is going on we must treat the pros and cons as well as the surface material.

I have no wish to drive everyone away but if we are not to deal with the intricacies of the material at hand it hardly seems worthwhile.I thought Merijo and I were on topic but perhaps at a deeper level than absolutely necessary sometimes. I will go back over the discussion to try to figure out where we went astray if we did.

Abelard,John of Salisbury and others in the Chartres School were seen by many as nit pickers, as fellows who tried to count the number of angels who could dance on a pinhead. I don't want to fall into the same trap here in this discussion so I will reexamine our past postings.

robert b. iadeluca
January 14, 2006 - 03:32 pm
Characters mentioned in the last Durant posting were Dermot MacMurrough, Tierni O'Rourke, Eva, Richard FitzGilbert, and O'Connor.

Any comments about them?

Robby

Justin
January 14, 2006 - 05:25 pm
OK. " In 1166 Dermot MacMurrough, King of Leinster, was defeated in war by Tiernan, whose wife he had seduced." Dermot then traded his beautiful daughter to "Strongbow" in return for military help. Dermot doesn't sound like a very nice guy but we have to recognize another element in the equation. War is not entirely caused by religion, politics and economics. Women also play a role. They have been seduced, fought over,and bought and sold like private mechandise for too long. I hope that as the glass ceiling is penetrated women as women will cease to be a part of the war equation.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 15, 2006 - 06:52 am
"In about 1026, Herleva of Falaise, the sixteen year old daughter of a tanner from Falaise in Normandy, gave birth to a son called Richard. The boy's father was Gilbert, Count of Brionne, one of the most powerful landowners in Normandy. As Herleva was not married to Gilbert, the boy became known as Richard Fitz Gilbert. The term 'Fitz' was used to show that Richard was the illegitimate son of Gilbert."

Richard FitzGilbert

and Fitz was carried from generation to generation. How things have changed since then, or have they?

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2006 - 06:59 am
A very interesting link, Eloise. Thank you.

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 15, 2006 - 07:40 am

RORY O'CONNOR

Malryn (Mal)
January 15, 2006 - 07:46 am

More about RORY O'CONNOR

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 15, 2006 - 07:56 am
"Irish surnames derive from a medley of origins, representing Gaelic, Nordic, Anglo-Norman, Welsh, Scots and English strains which have intermingled for over fifteen hundred years.

The oldest names are Gaelic, usually preceded by the famous`O`meaning `Grandson of` and `Mac` meaning `son of`. Thus we find, amongst others; O`Neill, O`Brien,O`Connor,O`Donnell,O`Grady, and McCarthy, McGuiness, and Macmurrough. Many of these names are descriptive, either of physical appearance or character.E.G. Reilly (brave), Quinn( intelligent), Kennedy (helmeted), Coneely (courageous), Dempsey (proud), Sullivan (black-eyed)and O`Toole (mighty-people).

Many of these Norman names were actually referring to place names in Northern France or in Wales (Walsh) that the invaders came from. For example Cusack (Cussac) Lyons (Lyons) De Lacey (Lacey) Joyce (Jose) and French."


I always wondered what the o stood for in Irish names and found out about mac at the same time, HERE

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2006 - 08:04 am
"Henry had accomplished his purpose with economy and skill.

"But he erred in thinking that the forces which he left behind him could sustain oder and peace. His appointees fought one another for the spoils and their aides and troops plundered the country with a minimum of restraint.

"The conquerors did their best to reduce the Irish to serfdom. The Irish resisted with guerrilla warfare and the result was a century of turmoil and destruction.

"In 1315 some Irish chieftains offered Ireland to Scotland where Robert Bruce had just defeated the English at Bannockburn. Robert's brother Edward landed in Ireland with 6000 men.

"Pope John XXII pronounced excommunication upon all who should aid the Scots. But nearly all Irish men rose at Edward's call and in 1316 they crowned him King.

"Two years later he was defeated and slain near Dundalk and the revolt collapsed in poverty and despair.

"The Scots, said Ranulf Higden, a fourteenth-century Briton, 'be light of heart, strong and wild enough, but by mixing with Englishmen, they be much amended. They be cruel upon their enemies and hate bondage most of anything and hold it foul sloth if any man dieth in bed and great worship if he die in the field.'"

Your thoughts, please, about these actions and the people involved?

Robby

Rich7
January 15, 2006 - 08:28 am
Eloise, very interesting postings on the Irish surnames. I remember reading once that the name "Fitz" had Norman origins and found its way to the English after 1066. "Fitz" was much more in use in English/Protestant Northern Ireland than Catholic Ireland.

But then, didn't Barry Fitzgerald win a supporting Oscar playing the Irish priest in "Going My Way?"

Rich

Rich7
January 15, 2006 - 08:38 am
Durant's words in Post #630 reminds me of a quote (origin of which I can't presently remember). " Ah the Irish, all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad"

Rich

Rich7
January 15, 2006 - 09:09 am
O.K., just one more thing. The quotation by Durant from a Scot about the desirability of dying in the field of battle for your country, reminded me of the words of Gen. George S. Patten to his troops during WWII. (I'm paraphrasing.) "Dying for your country is not your objective. Your objective is to make the other S.O.B. die for his country!"

Rich

Bubble
January 15, 2006 - 09:13 am
all those conflicts, all those wars, the loss of so many lives, it makes me sigh realizing that all through the centuries it is always the same: here, there, everywhere, it is not going to change.

marni0308
January 15, 2006 - 04:28 pm
We're ready for people to sign up to read the March 1st Non-Fiction selection, Founding Mothers, by Cokie Roberts. If you're interested in reading a lively and fascinating book about the women of the Founding Fathers, a book filled with juicy quotes and spicy details of wives, sisters, mistresses, spies, and inventors, this is the book for you.

Click on the link below to sign up:

"---Founding Mothers ~ Cokie Roberts ~ Proposed for March 1st"

JoanK and I are looking to seeing you there!

Marni

MeriJo
January 15, 2006 - 05:32 pm
Robby:

Thank you for the links to the past discussions. I shall be gone awhile as I read them.

Justin
January 15, 2006 - 06:44 pm
The Pope threatened to ecommunicate all those who sided with the Scots and Edward Bruce. The Irish apparently liked Edward Bruce and the Scots enough to make him King. So we have another people excommunicated. It is probably not significant because the pope did the same thing to the Brits and then admitted Henry back into the fold. The same must have happened to the Irish because they are all in the fold today (except of course for the Scotch Irish who are now Presbyterian).

I too wondered about the O and Mc and Fitz. Some kings, I recall, were proudly called "Bastard". The designation today is clearly a name of derision.

robert b. iadeluca
January 15, 2006 - 08:15 pm
MeriJo:-If you are talking about reading the posts of "Our Oriental Heritage," you are aware of course that you will be prepared to read 7,000 postings. If you are intending to read all Story of Civilization posts up to the present day, settle down because you will be reading 27,000 postings.

In this discussion group we don't waste much time talking about the weather and and other trifles. You can expect that practially every post contains much meat.

Robby

Sunknow
January 15, 2006 - 10:12 pm
Eloise - Defining the Irish names...My mother was a Riley and my father's mother was an O'Reilly...both likely sprouted from the same shrub. Of course, I think the definition "brave" would fit them well. Interesting about the Mac and "O" and Fitz preceding the names.

Ranulf Higden's remark: "The Scots be light of heart, strong and wild enough, but by mixing with Englishmen, they be much amended." Considering the mixing that has gone on down through the centuries, we must ALL be truly 'amended' by now. Yet there is still great worship for "the man that dies in the field" of battle.

Robby - Yes, MeriJo has set quite a task for herself. I once considered going back to read all the old posts, and quickly discovered that I must choose...now or then. Speed reading would come in handy, but frankly, speed reading takes away the wonder of the ancient words, and the historical sound of the story, so it doesn't work for me at all.

Sun

Justin
January 15, 2006 - 10:44 pm
There does not seem to be great worship today for the man who goes down in battle. We hide the bodies of the homecoming from the press to avoid alarming the voters. We deny access to the seat of power by Gold Star Mothers. We minimize the value of the lives of 2065 dead and thousands of badly wounded by lying about the cause of war, and by failing to spend the money required to armour their vehicles and their bodies, and by failing to provide the money for adequate medical care to veterans. A memorial is not enough. Geo. Washington said, " Care for those who have borne the battle is an essential role of government."

Sunknow
January 15, 2006 - 11:01 pm
Justin - I am afraid you are more correct that I was when you consider our "current" and "recent" wars.

Sun

JoanK
January 15, 2006 - 11:49 pm
It's a couple of hundred years late for this discussion, but tonight my local PBS station had a program on the battle of Hastings. It was very interesting, going into some detail on the weapons and strategy. It made me realize what a near thing it was, that changed the history of England.

If you find it locally, you might want to see it.

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2006 - 05:38 am
Any further comments about the characters in Post 630?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 16, 2006 - 06:23 am

Index "King Robert the Bruce", pages from a book found with Google Book Search

Robert the Bruce

Malryn (Mal)
January 16, 2006 - 06:30 am

End of Middle Ages Timeline

Malryn (Mal)
January 16, 2006 - 02:48 pm

The Ranulf Higden Society

World Map, according to the Polychron (Ranulf Higden)

Mention of Ranulf Higden in the Compendium Maleficarum. Click right arrow lower right to turn the page of this book


The GOOGLE BOOK SEARCH is well worth looking into, folks. You can read entire reference books online. Go to the Google Search Engine. Click "MORE". Type the topic or name you're searching. click BOOK SEARCH, and there you are with access to reference books in libraries throughout the world.

robert b. iadeluca
January 16, 2006 - 05:49 pm
"Ireland remained Irish but lost its liberty.

"Scotland became British but remained free.

"Angles, Saxons and Normans multiplied in the lowlands and reorganized agricultural life on a feudal plan.

"Malcolm III was a warrior who repeatedly invaded England. But his Queen Margaret was an Anglo-Saxon princess who converted the Scottish court to the English language, brought in English speaking clergy and reared her sons in English ways.

"The last and strongest of them, David, made the Church his chosen instrument of rule, founded English speaking monasteries at Kelso, Dryburgh, Melrose and Holyrood, levied tithes (for the first time in Scotland) for the support of the Church and gave so lavishly to bishops and abbots that people mistook him for a saint.

"Under David I, Scotland, in all but its highlands, became an English state.

"But it was not the less independent.

"The English immigrants were transformed into patriotic Scots. From their number came the Stuarts and the Bruces.

"David I invaded and captured Northumberland.

"Malcolm IV lost it.

"William the Lion, trying to regain it, was taken prisoner by Henry II and was freed only on pledging homage to the king of England for the SCottish crown.

"Fifteen years later he bought release from this pledge by helping to finance Richard I in the Third Crusade but the English kings continued to claim feudal suzerainty over Scotland.

"Alexander III recovered the hebrides from Norway, maintained friendly relations with England and gave Scotland a golden age of prosperity and peace."

I am wondering if this was the actual creation of the United Kingdom.

Robby

Justin
January 16, 2006 - 06:27 pm
David made the church his chosen instrument of rule. He was not the first. The Sumerian and Accadian kings also made the priests their chosen instrument of rule. These two forces work so well together, reinforcing one another to their mutual benefit. It is no wonder politicians and the clergy have managed to survive as people managers throughout the ages. Everyonce in a while I have an itch to separate the one from the other but its foolish to try. Combined, they have the power, Separated, we have the power but we are disorganized and unable to apply our power effectively. We might destroy ourselves if the status quo were altered.

Rich7
January 16, 2006 - 06:28 pm
Re: Robby's posting of Durant #647.

This explains a lot to me. I've always wondered why Scotland prospered and Ireland languished. They both started out pretty much the same vis a vis the English.

It seems the Scottish ultimately cast their lot with the English and the Irish continued to resist (even to this day).

No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 16, 2006 - 07:40 pm
SLIDE SHOW OF IRELAND

Justin
January 16, 2006 - 10:22 pm
Wonderful slide show, Eloise. Thank you.

Justin
January 16, 2006 - 10:33 pm
Rich: I also wondered why that happened. I think there is much merit in your observation. Differences in Temperment may account for Scottish advances. Religion may also be a factor. The Scotch Presbytrians were able to put one of their own on the English throne. The Irish Catholics were never able to do that nor were they ever able to reach an accord with Briton, as you point out.

Bubble
January 17, 2006 - 01:28 am
Justin (post #648 ) Here too we tried and try to separate government from religion, it doesn't work. The religious parties won't ever relinquish the power they get and without them it seems impossible to get a ruling majority. There is frustration on both sides.

Scrawler
January 17, 2006 - 11:31 am
Could Scotland have seen the advanges of sticking with the British from a business and monetary sucess unlike Ireland who wouldn't give up their "individualism" and in the end it cost them their freedom.

Rich7
January 17, 2006 - 11:55 am
Justin, You cited two possible reasons why the Scots and Irish have different outcomes in their relationship to England- temperament and religion.

The Scotch and Irish temperaments should have been quite similar. They are both from the same tribe of Celts. As for religion, wasn't everyone in the British Isles Roman Catholic at the time under discussion? I think Presbyterians didn't appear in Scotland until the 16th century.

I hate to take issue with someone who just posted his agreement with me, but I have always been puzzled over the different outcomes for Ireland and Scotland after they both started out so similarly in their dealings with England.

Could the difference be as simple as geography? Scotland is contiguous with England. There was frequent interaction at many levels. Ireland is an island, isolated from the day to day interaction (both good and bad) enjoyed by the English and Scots.

Rich

MeriJo
January 17, 2006 - 12:38 pm
Rich 7:

There is a most interesting history about Scotland which you may want to look through. "How The Scots Invented the Modern World" subtitle, "The True Story of How Western Europe's Poorest Nation Created Our World and Everything In It" by Arthur Herman.

I saw it (paperback) on the shelf at Border's and was struck by the assertive title - I just had to buy it. It is well-written and entertaining as well as informative.

On Edit: I found this observation from the Sunday Times (London): . . . "This book is not just about Scotland: It is an exciting account of the origins of the modern world. No one who takes this incredible historical trek will ever view the Scots___or the modern West____in the same way again."

MeriJo
January 17, 2006 - 12:52 pm
Robby:

I have bookmarked that page with the link and shall read it from time to time.

I am interrupted often here with home and family matters so cannot stay with it for too long a period.

Justin
January 17, 2006 - 02:55 pm
Rich; Quite right. They were both Catholic in the early period. However, we are looking at outcomes are we not- an observation of a modern result. Causes of the outcome lie in many periods other than the Medieval one although that is our current topic.

Geography must have contributed. Certainly, crossing the Irish Sea must have been almost as difficult as crossing the Channel. One walked into Scotland.

Rich7
January 17, 2006 - 06:52 pm
Justin, Thank you. You're right. It's not fair to look at a modern outcome and ascribe some one or two events that occurred at the time of Henry II as the cause. Different events happened in and to the two countries over the centuries to make them what they are today. For instance, the Protestant Reformation never reached Ireland, but Scotland certainly felt its influence.

MeriJo, Thanks for the book reference on Scotland. It sounds a little chauvinistic for my taste. Wasn't there one written with a similarly bombastic title about Ireland? It was something like "How the Irish saved Western Civilization." That's not the title but it sounded something like that. Anyway, I appreciate the reference.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 17, 2006 - 07:13 pm
"Many Scotch nobles owned land in England and were thereby mortgaged to obedience.

"But the older Gaelic Scots strongly resented the surrender. One of them, Sir William Wallace, organized an 'army of the commons of Scotland,' routed the English garrison and for a year ruled Scotland as regent for Ballio.

"Edward returned, and defeated Wallace at Falkirk. In 1305 he captured Wallace and had him disembowled and quartered according to the Engish law of treason.

"A year later another defender was forced into the field.

"Robert Bruce, grandson of the Bruce who had claimed the throne in 1286, quarreled with John Comyn, a leading representative of Edward I in Scotland and killed him. Thereby committed to rebellion, Bruce had himself crowned King although only a small group of nobles supported him and the pope excommunicated him for his crime.

"Edward once more marched north but died on the way. Edward II's incompetence was a blessing for Bruce. The nobles and clergy of Scotland rallied to the outlaw's banner.

"His reinforced armies, bravely led by his brother Edward and Sir James Douglas, captured Edinburgh, invaded Northumberland and seized Durham.

"In 1314 Edward II led into Scotland the largest army that the land had ever seen and met the Scots at Bannockburn. Bruce had had his men dig and conceal pits before his position. Many of the English, charging, fell into the morass and the English army was almost totally destroyed.

"In 1328 the regents for Edward III, involved in war with France, signed the Treaty of Northampton, making Scotland once more free."

And those English thought they were going to make Scotland subservient to them. Ha!

Robby

Justin
January 17, 2006 - 10:14 pm
Robert Bruce is excommunicated for killing John Comyn.The Pope terms it a sin but is that how sins are expiated? What ever happened to Penance following confession. This looks like "plantation" politics.

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2006 - 05:07 am
Anything further about the other characters in Post 660?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2006 - 05:18 am
This article about the IRISH may tickle your fancy.

Robby

Rich7
January 18, 2006 - 07:17 am
Robby, Great story! I always knew I had royal blood in me.

By the way, the Malachy McCourt quoted in the story is the brother of Frank McCourt, author of "Angela's Ashes," and "Tis." Malachy, when he's not tending his bar in Manhattan, writes a little himself. The most successful of his works was "A Monk Swimming."

He also wrote a surprisingly scholarly, and interesting short book on the lore and origins of the tune "Danny Boy."

Rich

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 18, 2006 - 09:15 am
All of my ancesters are French, but because I married a man who was part French, part German, part Scottish, my 6 children, for the most part chose spouses of mixed blood giving a new set of genes to my 10 grandchildren who have French, Irish, Scottish, German, Sweedish, American and Swiss blood not including Native blood that a lot of Canadians have inherited.

Rich should we call you Your Royal Highness now?

MeriJo
January 18, 2006 - 10:56 am
Rich 7: As mentioned in Robby's Irish link that writing did not become common in Ireland until about 600 A. D. that is the way the Irish saved civilization. St. Patrick had managed to bring the classics among other literature from Europe to Ireland and the monks there copied them all. Europe was very Dark in those years of the Middle Ages - much fighting and pillaging and the fear that these antiquities would be lost, and Patrick was insightful enough to know that the ancient classics of Greece and Rome needed to be preserved.

About the Scottish book: Scotland was independent of England. Ireland was part of England so could not be considered as the poorest nation. It is the point of view of the world that the Scots brought to light. It is how the Scots created the basic ideals of modernity. It is quite authentic and a serious study as is "How the Irish Saved Civilization." The Scots' history does deal mainly with the eighteenth century forward.

So, if you would see either of them on a shelf in the library or book store, and browse through them, you would read a well-written section of these countries' histories.

Rich7
January 18, 2006 - 12:47 pm
Eloise, Your Royal Highness will do just fine, thank you.

MeriJo, Thanks for the additional book reference. My reading list is getting longer than the hours in a day. That's a better situation, I suppose, than not having anything to read.

Rich

Justin
January 18, 2006 - 03:22 pm
Rich: Your Royal Highness, King of the wayward Irish, Lord of the posters, Prince of all good men, I bid you welcome, and hope you enjoy your titles. I'd give you more but I am afraid they would go to your head and you would talk to us peasants no more.

Rich7
January 18, 2006 - 04:05 pm
Justin,



Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 18, 2006 - 08:01 pm
"The Welsh kept their own language and their old customs, tilled their rough soil with obstinate courage and solaced their days and nights with legend, poetry, music, and song.

"Their bards now gave form to the tales of the Maginogion, enriching literature with a mystic melodious tenderness uniquely Welsh.

"Annually the bards and minstrels assembled in a national eisteddfod (from eistedd, to sit) which can be traced back to 1176. Contests were held in oratory, poetry, singing, and the playing of musical instruments.

"The Welsh could fight bravely but not long. They were soon eager to return and protect at first hand their women, children, and homes. One of their proverbs wished that 'every ray of the sun were a poniard to pierce the friends of war.'"

Your comments, please?

Robby

Justin
January 18, 2006 - 11:09 pm
The Welsh language has always put me off. Ther are so many seemingly unrelated letters in every word that I am lost in a sentence.They are a tolerant bunch today. I read the Ladies of Llangollen and was facinated by their ability to live together in a village as a very acceptable part of society. In the small towns of the US they might well have been ostracized.

Justin
January 18, 2006 - 11:18 pm
The Welsh may have the solution to long term warfare away from home. Had Alexander commanded the Welsh he would never have travelled past Macedonia. These people fight to protect thir homes not their borders and cannot be interested in their neighbor's goods. We need more of that attitude in the world. Just think Saddam Housein might have remained at home rather than invade Kuwait had he led the Welsh. These must be people who would please Mal greatly.

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2006 - 04:14 am
The Rhinelands

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2006 - 04:24 am
"The countries huddled about the lower Rhine and its many mouths were among the richest in the medieval world.

"South of the Rhine lay the country of Flanders, running from Calais through modern Belgium to the Scheldt. Formally it was a fief held from the French king. Actually it was ruled by a dynasty of enlightened counts, checked only by the proud autonomy of the towns.

"Near the Rhine the people were Flemish, of Low German origin, and spoke a German dialect.

"West of the Lys River they were Walloons -- a mixture of Germans and French on a Celtic base -- and spoke a dialect of French.

"Commerce and industry fattened and disturbed Ghent, Audernaarde, Courtrai, Ypres, and Kassel in the Flemish northeast, and Bruges, Lille, and Douri in the Walloon southwest. In these cities population was denser than anywhere else in Europe north of the Alps.

"In 1300 the cities dominated the counts. The magistrates of the larger communities formed a supreme court for the county and negotiated on their own authority with foreign cities and governments.

"Usually the counts co-operated with the cities, encouraged manufactures and trade, maintained a stable currency, and as early as 1100 -- two centuries before England -- established uniform measures and weights for all the towns."

Interesting how the cities were able to gain their own autonomy and could even dominate the counts.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2006 - 04:45 am
I could not find a map of the Rhinelands. Here is a map of GERMANY.

Robby

Bubble
January 19, 2006 - 05:27 am
http://website.lineone.net/~nickmarshall1/page0010.html

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 19, 2006 - 07:15 am
"two centuries before England -- established uniform measures and weights for all the towns.""

Uniformity in weights and measures facilitates trade as much as uniform currency such as the Euro eliminated the multiple European currencies to improve trade. Most ordinary people in Europe were against the Euro and thought it wouldn't work, but it does and now they are used to it. Only proud Switzerland still lags behind with their Swiss franc, but even they will have to fall in line or else lose their privileged spot on the economic map of Europe.

When will the US adopt the metric system of weights and measures? Since Canada has adopted the system, the young people in Canada don't even know what a mile or a pound is.

Justin
January 19, 2006 - 01:35 pm
Traude, Traude, come in whre ever you are. We are in the Rhineland.

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2006 - 04:38 pm
An excellent map of the Rhineland, Bubble. Thank you. And boy do the names bring back memories. I wore a ribbon on my uniform which showed that I was in combat across the Rhineland, fighting in Aachen and Munchen-Gladbach and through other German cities not on that map.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 19, 2006 - 05:59 pm
"The class war ultimately destroyed the freedom of both the cities and the counts.

"As the proletariat rose in number, resentment, and power, and the counts sided with them as an offset to the bumptious bourgeoisie, the merchants sought support from Philip Augustus of France who promised it in the hope of bringng Flanders effectively under the French crown.

"England, anxious to keep the chief market for her wool out of the control of the French king, allied herself with the counts of Flanders and Hainanlt, the duke of Brabanr, and Otto IV of Germany. Philip defeated this coalition at Bouvines, subdued the counts, and protected the merchants in their oligarchic regime.

"The conflict of power and classes continued. In 1297 Count Guy de Dampierre again allied Flanders with England. Philip the Fair invaded Flanders, imprisoned Guy, and forced him to cede the country to France.

"But when the French army moved to occupy Bruges the commons rose, overcame the troops, massacred rich merchants, and gained possession of the town. Philip sent a large army to avenge this affront. The workers of the towns formed themselves into an impromptu army and defeated the knights and mercenaries of France in the battle of Courtrai.

"The aged Guy de Dampierre was released and restored and the strange alliance of feudal counts and revolutinary proletaires enjoyed a decade of victory."

Once again -- class war. How many times in this discussion has that topic arisen?

Robby

3kings
January 19, 2006 - 09:40 pm
I don't know, Robby. I had got to a count of 17, but lost it about then. Class warfare, i.e the economy, seems to me to be at the bottom of all conflict. Class itself, is an economic division in and of, both social and national groups...... "Can you spare a dime, Bud?" ++++ Trevor

Justin
January 19, 2006 - 10:17 pm
I see more economic issues in this than class warfare. Sure the commoners attacked the merchants but it was the gains of the wool trade that drove the French and the merchants into alliance against England who wanted secure markets.

Bubble
January 20, 2006 - 06:01 am
It is all about money and power

robert b. iadeluca
January 20, 2006 - 06:20 am
So for four years we've been talking about money and power?

Robby

Rich7
January 20, 2006 - 07:08 am
Civilization is more than that. What we too often see when studying history is the story of one group taking advantage over another with the coin or the sword. (Money and power) The story of civilization in more than battles, revolutions, and royal successions, it is also the story of mankind's advancements in democracy, science, engineering, the arts, and communications.

Rich

JoanK
January 20, 2006 - 12:43 pm
Money, power, and ideas! These are the three things sociologists look for when looking at a society.

Sunknow
January 20, 2006 - 02:07 pm
We are at the end of the 1200s, what 'ideas' do you think are prominent enough at this time, to compete with "money and power" in society?

Sun

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 20, 2006 - 02:50 pm
Joan, I think that ideas come first with power-hungry people and they need money to reach their goal whether it is financial or territorial, but their ideas will supply them with ways to get the money needed.

In S of C we have observed this phenomena since the beginning. Usually men are the power-hungry ones and women have been used to help them achieve their goal.

Basically it all boils down to the economy because the more money one has, the more power they have and it can be used for several purposes, to threaten, to cajole, to flaunt, and to acquire things that can bring others to their knees, especially in wartime.

Once the money is there, the power usually follows and ideas is what started it all.

Justin
January 20, 2006 - 03:26 pm
I am not at all sure we have advanced very much in democracy. The Senate -Caesar competition for supreme power is again in vogue in the leading democracy of our time. Caesar is winning this time and the people are losing.

The arts have not advanced very far. It's true that we have the music of Mozart, and Beethoven, but we must also live with today's hard rock to get to a few nuggets. The same is true of painting, sculpture, and literature. One must put up with a great deal of mediocrity in order to find a work to compete with Leonardo's experimentals. Our efforts in abstract painting continue to ignore the viewer while satisfying the painter.

Science has an economic role to play in society. There may be a scientist here and there who unselfishly works for the good of mankind but in the main there are economic rewards attracting the bulk of our scientists.

Engineering is essentially and economic enterprise.

Communications? TV? Language use? Personal computers, perhaps. But these are economically motivated enterprises.

I agree with Trevor. It is money and power we have been talking about. Not class warfare. Class warfare is a wart on the body it is not a wound.

Rich7
January 20, 2006 - 06:22 pm
You guys are so negative. Come on you're depressing me!

The glass is half full, not half empty.

Would you prefer to be living in the 13th century instead of the terrible world that you choose to see about you now?

Rich

Justin
January 20, 2006 - 07:13 pm
Ok. So we have Mozart and Beethoven. We are coming to grips with stroke. Perhaps, we can use stem cells to replace worn out parts. We had Bill Clinton for eight years as president. Women are now allowed to be contributory in society. I suppose there is another part to the glass.

winsum
January 20, 2006 - 07:32 pm
While those things continue to exist I don't feel very positive about our civilized status. We are very slow to learn. In eight hundred years we've learned to let ourselves live our own lives but only up a point. Religion still makes most of the rules . . . continuing it's efforts to hold POWER and make the MONEY it needs to support it and FRIGHTEN people into accepting it. When will we learn that religion is a terrible plague in itself.

MeriJo
January 20, 2006 - 10:05 pm
I think that the world is a whole lot better now than it was back in the eleventh century. Knowledge of what-to-do, when and how is so much more advanced. Nutrition, hygiene and mental health is better understood and accommodated. Shelter is much better. Heat and light is easier come by than the small fire and the many candles,etc.

There seems to have been a cycle to the development of civilization - ups and downs - and if one looks closely, it is the one who can bubble up to the front of a population that seems to direct the particular group. Here, I have to think there are three most important and valuable attributes in one who advances civilization. It is the very bright, those who think critically and those who are eminently perceptive who become the leaders and can make this advancement happen.

Justin
January 20, 2006 - 10:12 pm
How important do you think critical thinking is in making advancements in civilization?.

3kings
January 21, 2006 - 12:34 am
I think critical thinking is essential for the advancement of society. It is always the first action of a tyrant to destroy his critics, as in Nazi Germany, or 'communist' Russia.

If no one questions the "conventional wisdom" of the day, then advancement just stops. I believe that is what happened to what might loosely be called the Aboriginal societies of sub Saharan Africa, New Guinea, Australia, and the South Pacific Islanders. All these societies advanced so far, and then just stagnated, +++ Trevor

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 21, 2006 - 02:59 am
Bubble, you know Belgium very well, I am sure that you have visited Bruges, isn't it famous for its lace? HERE is some of it's history and monuments.

Bubble
January 21, 2006 - 03:12 am
Eloise, this is from my trip in Bruges in 2003. http://usera.imagecave.com/sop_bubble/Bruges/

Most of the pictures are from the tour on the canals. The streets are all cobbles stoned and so hard for me.The center of town is closed to car traffic.

You can also see a close up of the lacemaker hands and the numerous bobbins used for this craft.

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2006 - 05:54 am
"What we now know as Holland was, from the third to the ninth century, part of the Frank kingdom.

"In 843 it became the northernmost portion of the buffer state of Lorraine created by the Treaty of Verdun.

"In the ninth and tenth centuries it was divided into feudal fiefs for better resistance to Norse raids.

"The Germans who cleared and settled the heavily wooded district north of the Rhine called it Holland, i.e. Woodland. Most of the people were serfs, absorbed in the struggle to wrest a living from a land that had always to be diked or drained. Half of Holland exists by the taming of the sea.

"But there were cities, too, not quite as rich and turbulent as the Flemish towns but soundly based on steady industry and orderly trade. Dordrecht was the most prosperous. Utrecht was a center of learning. Haarlem was the seat of the Count of Holland. Delft became the capital for a time -- then toward 1250, 'The Hague.'

"Amsterdam made its debut in 1204 when a feudal lord built a fortress chateau at the mouth of the Amstel River. The sheltered site on the Zuider Zee and the pervasive canals invited commerce. In 1197 the city was made a free port where goods could be received and reshipped free of customs duties.

"Thenceforth little Holland played a large part in the economic world. There as elsewhere commerce nourished culture.

"In the thirteenth century we find a Dutch poet, Maerlant, who vigorously satirized the luxurious life of the clergy. In the monasteries Dutch art, in sculpture, pottery, painting, and illumination was beginning its unique and extraordinary career."

Any comments about Holland?

Robby

Malryn (Mal)
January 21, 2006 - 06:32 am

Jacob van Maerlant

Malryn (Mal)
January 21, 2006 - 06:49 am

More about Maerlant and his poetry

Rich7
January 21, 2006 - 08:16 am
A map of holland circa 1250, as provided by Brian in the "Rembrandt" discussion.

http://www.rabbel.info/holland1250.html

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 21, 2006 - 08:23 am
That is an EXCELLENT map of Holland! Took a long time downloading but well worth it.

Robby

Scrawler
January 21, 2006 - 11:15 am
To me the story of civilization is the story of people. They may have been influenced by money, power, art, music etc. but it was the people who made history what it was - from the slave to the king.

Rich7
January 21, 2006 - 01:46 pm
Why do I get thirsty when Durant writes about the Amstel River?

Rich

Justin
January 21, 2006 - 02:29 pm
Rich: Thanks for the map of Holland. It is more of a maze of water than I thought. My paternal ancestor came through there on his way from Basel and Geneva to the New World. In 1600 the place was a thriving business community.

I have often wondered why it was a desirable site. Part of the answer I now know is that it was a free port and there was trading access. The Hanseatic league probably contributed and of course the lace makers and the wool traders also did their part to make Amsterdam flourish.

Malryn (Mal)
January 21, 2006 - 04:33 pm

"Welkom bij de Amstel Kroegzoeker. Hier vindt je snel en makkelijk
alle Amstel horeca aangelegenheden in Nederland. Zoek op plaats
voor een kroeg bij jou in de buurt!"

3kings
January 21, 2006 - 07:51 pm
I have no idea whether the above is off or on topic. Assuming that it is on topic, could someone offer a translation, so that I may understand what the writer said?

Nie mam najmniejszego pojecia czy powyzsze twierdzenie jest na dany temat, czy nie. Dajmy na to, ze jest, czy wiec ktos moglby je przetlumaczyc na jezyk angielski abym mogl zrozumiec wypowiedz autora?

The above is a translation of my remarks, in Polish, and written by my wife. As I remarked, it adds nothing to our discussion, as I guess few here can read Polish, ( or Dutch ).... ++Trevor.

Rich7
January 21, 2006 - 07:51 pm
Mal,

Danken jou, mevrouw Mal.

Prosit!

Rich

Sunknow
January 21, 2006 - 08:32 pm
I warn you ahead of time, this is off topic. But I can't resist telling you, considering the last few messages.

When I lived in the Far East, I always regretted not learning at least a little of the Japanese language ahead of time....still I learned a few words and phrases while I was there, and promptly forgot most of it when I left.

Fifteen years later, assigned to Germany, I quickly bought books and records and tried to learn some German ahead of time. I learned as many words and phrases as I could, but not enough to do much "thinking" in that language.

We arrived in Germany, and with my 14 year old daughter by my side, on our first shopping trip to a Wiesbaden Department store, the Saleslady offered to help me (she spoke in German). I felt confident and proudly opened my mouth to reply from my sparse German vocabulary and replied......in Japanese.

Everyone, my daughter included, was astonished to see the red headed American lady speaking Japanese. No one was more astonished than I was. I had reached into my mind for words foreign to my thinking processes, and came up with the wrong language.

Sun

Bubble
January 22, 2006 - 01:18 am
siyuwa kintu kani, apa... (swahili)
I don't know what is going on, here...

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2006 - 06:48 am
Well, I guess all this language stuff is related to civilization (so to speak).

Robby

Rich7
January 22, 2006 - 06:52 am
Justin mentioned earlier that Welch is an unusual language. In my opinion, so is Dutch. The English language uses few j's in the interior of words. The Dutch, it seems, feel that they have to make up for English's deficiency by sticking j's into words even when they are not needed. The world famous Rijksmuseum is pronounced like the "j" is not there.

Rich

Bubble
January 22, 2006 - 07:04 am
Rich, if you considered ij as a y the pronunciation would seem very logical, don't you think? Dutch is certainly easier to learn and pronounce than German.

Malryn (Mal)
January 22, 2006 - 07:10 am

A few posts back, RICH posted:
"Why do I get thirsty when Durant writes about the Amstel River?

Rich"
Since I know there is an Amstel Beer, I went to their WEBSITE, copied a phrase I found on it, and pasted it here. (Click on the right where you see "KLIK HIER".) I figured that whether RICH knew Dutch or not, he'd realize what the phrase meant. Dare I say that if we all had been paying attention, we would have, too?

Aren't languages representatives of civilization?

Mal

Bubble
January 22, 2006 - 07:33 am
Thanks Mal! I had forgotten that good humored expression when leaving "Tot ziens" or "See you again", I assumed.

Belgium and Holland produced lace and wool, but also beer and cheese. Holland was renowned for her tapestries and artists. Delft big tiles industry started a few hundred years later.

Rich7
January 22, 2006 - 10:46 am
Bubble, Yes, learning Dutch must be easier than learning German. In my opinion, anything would be easier than learning German.

I was required to study German in college, because I was majoring in a science field, and at the time German was thought to be the language of science. (Remember the old films wherein any scientist in the story had to have a German accent?)

Mark Twain once remarked that he now understands why there is an Eternity: "To give people long enough to learn the German language."

Rich

winsum
January 22, 2006 - 10:58 am
from scrawler earlier.

"Scrawler - 10:15am Jan 21, 2006 PT (#703 of 716) The Story of Civilization: People: To me the story of civilization is the story of people. They may have been influenced by money, power, art, music etc. but it was the people who made history what it was - from the slave to the king."


right on topic. . . .

robert b. iadeluca
January 22, 2006 - 11:27 am
"In classical times Switzerland was the home of diverse tribes -- Helvetii, Raeti, Leponti -- of mixed Celtic, Teutonic and Italic origin.

"In the third century the Alemanni occupied and Germanized the northern plateau.

"After the collapse of the Carolingian Empire the land was divided into feudal fiefs subject to the Holy Roman Empire. But it is difficult to enslave mountaineers. The Swiss, while acknowledging some feudal dues, soon liberated themselves from serfdom.

"The villages in democratic assemblies chose their own officials and ruled themselves by the ancient Germanic laws of the Alemanni and Burgundians. For mutual protection the peasants neighboring Lake Lucerne formed themselves into 'Forest Cantons' (Waldstatte) -- Uri, Nidwalden, and Schwyz, which later gave its name to the state.

"The sturdy burghers of the towns that had grown along the Alpine passes -- Geneva, Constance, Fribourg, Berne, and Basel -- elected their own officials and administered their own laws.

"Their feudal overlords raised no objection to this so long as basic feudal taxes were paid."

"The Hapsburg counts who, from 1173, held the northern districts, proved an exception to this rule and earned the hatred of the men of Schwyz by attempting to apply feudal dues in full severity.

"In 1291 the three Forest Cantons formed an 'Everlasting League' and swore a confederatio to give one another aid against external aggression or internal disturbance, to arbitrate all differences and to recognize no judge who was not a native of the valley or had bought his office. Lucerne, Zuric, and Constance soon joined the League.

"In 1315 the Hapsburg dukes sent two armies into Switzerland to enforce all feudal dues. In the pass of Morgarten the infantry of Schwyz and Uri, armed with halberds, defeated the Austrian cavalry in'the Marathon of Switzerland.' The Austrian forces withdrew. The three cantons renewed their oath of mutual support and created the Swiss Confederacy.

"It was not yet an independent state. The free citizens acknowledged certain feudal obligations and the suzerainty of the Holy Roman Emperor.

"But feudal lords and holy emperors had learned to respect the arms and liberties of the Swiss cantons and towns and the victory of Morgarten had opened the way to the most stable and sensible democracy in history."

This is a fascinating nation. Any comments?

Robby

Bubble
January 22, 2006 - 12:33 pm
The story of WILHELM TELL from that time is know by all in Switzerland.

http://www.tell.ch/

Click on Legend of Wilhelm Tell.

You can also hear the Swiss national anthem "Trittst im Morgenrot daher"

Rich7
January 22, 2006 - 01:03 pm
A colorful map of the cantons of Switzerland.

http://www.about.ch/cantons/

Tich

Bubble
January 22, 2006 - 02:15 pm
Thanks Rich. I never realized there were 23 different cantons even though I lived there for two years. I never managed to pronounce Schweitzer-Dutch either. lol

Click on the list of cantons to see their names, only the initials show on the list.

Sunknow
January 22, 2006 - 07:27 pm
""But feudal lords and holy emperors had learned to respect the arms and liberties of the Swiss cantons...." That was in the 1300s.

Two hundred years later, they must have still retained respect. This is from the Dallas Morning News today along with great photos of the Swiss Guards:

"The Vatican will begin celebrations of the 500th anniversary of the pope's Swiss Guards on Sunday, marking the day in 1506 that Swiss mercenaries arrived in Rome and formed the first elite papal guards. The Vatican secretary of state, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, will celebrate Mass in the Sistine Chapel, followed by a special blessing from Pope Benedict XVI.

Sun

3kings
January 22, 2006 - 08:05 pm
"In classical times Switzerland was the home of diverse tribes -- Helvetii, Raeti, Leponti -- of mixed Celtic, Teutonic and Italic origin."

The first true Europeans ? ++ Trevor

Justin
January 22, 2006 - 10:58 pm
Do you remember when the Helvetii came charging out of the alps to attack Caesar and his troops? They were stopped at the Rhone and driven back. The Helvetii had packed up bag and baggage taking family with them and abandoning their alpine homes to seek new land in the plains. When the adventure ended at the Rhone they must have turned about so we could find them in the mountains when we looked in 1200.

Rich7
January 23, 2006 - 06:59 am
We have cantons in North America.

The Eastern Cantons of Quebec (Anglophones call them Townships) are New-England type villages with an exotic French flair. The link, below, shows some of the beauty of the Eastern Cantons. You can get the English version by clicking "English" in the upper left, but even the photography somehow looks more beautiful in French.

http://www.cantonsdelest.com/atrce/index.php

Rich

Rich7
January 23, 2006 - 07:17 am
In my skiing days, I couldn't understand why New Englanders, and New Yorkers would stop in New Hampshire or Vermont, when with a few more hours drive, they could be in great ski country all day and dine on French cuisine that night.

What gives the townships their New England charm is the fact that during the American Revolution, many Loyalists (to the king) left New England and went into Canada. A good number of them settled in the Eastern Cantons, and the archecture of the area still reminds one of New England.

Rich

Ann Alden
January 23, 2006 - 08:15 am
Come join us in the discussion of "Pomegranate Soup" which will start on Feb 1st. Its a good story about three young women escaping from Iran just before the Shah left and how they ended up in Ireland, starting up a new Middle Eastern restaurant while trying to fit in in a small Irish village. Recipes included!

And, when I get done with this, I am going to try to come in here just to lurk and learn. Just a little L&L for me in March!

Scrawler
January 23, 2006 - 11:18 am
It seems to me that this scene is repeated time and time again. The "little people" who are not so very little go up against a great big "army" who in the end aren't really that big. You'd almost think that after so many years "man" [in general] would realize that people protecting their homes and knowing what the terrain is like have an advantage over those attacking their home land.

Justin
January 23, 2006 - 03:12 pm
Rich; We went to Stowe,Mount Snow,Killinton, and Mount Washington because the five hour drive from the city after a week of stress tired the old man. Mohawk was my favorite because I could get there in an hour from my home in Connecticut.

robert b. iadeluca
January 23, 2006 - 04:49 pm
Lots of info by Durant in Post 718. Any further comments?

Robby

Justin
January 24, 2006 - 12:05 am
I think it was the Alemanni who were pushing the Helvetii to leave their homes in the alps and to intrude upon the Romans at the Rhone.Caesar was forced to push them back where they were now homeless.

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 24, 2006 - 04:12 am
Switzerland is pleasant not just because of its amazing alpine scenery but because the Swiss are happy about their government but "often they don't know who the President is".

SWISS DEMOCRACY.

"Democracy can be endangered by so strong a central government. The Swiss have never had this problem. Swiss laws are made by the elected Federal Assembly. This assembly then elects the Federal Council, the executive branch. Any law passed by the assembly can be vetoed by a popular referendum. Thus, in Switzerland, the people can always overrule their lawmakers. The federal Council, in turn, is composed of seven men, no one of whom can assume a dominating position. The Swiss dread the possibility of a strong personality emerging in politics. The joke is told that the average Swiss citizen doesn't know who the Swiss President is."

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2006 - 04:23 am
FRANCE

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2006 - 04:34 am
Please note the change in the GREEN quotes in the Heading.

"At the accession of Philip II Augustus (1180) France was a minor and harassed state, hardly promising any grandeur to come.

"England held Normandy, Brittany, Anjou, Touraine, and Aquitaine -- a domain thrice the size of that directly controlled gby the French king. Most of Burgundy adhered to Germany and the flourishing county of Flanders was in effect an independent principality.

"So were the counties of Lyons, Savoy, and Chambery. So was Provence -- southeastern France -- rich in wine, oil, fruit, poets, and the cities of Arles and Avignon, Aix and Marseille.

"The Dauphine, centering about Vienne, had been bequeathed to Germany as part of Burgundy. It was now independently ruled by a dauphin who took his title from the dolphin what was an emblem of his family.

"France proper was divided into duchies, counties, seignories, seneschalties, and bailliages (bailiwicks) governed -- in order of increasing dependence upon the king -- by dukes, counts, seigneurs, seneschals (royal stewards) and bailiffs.

"This loose aggregation, already called Francia in the ninth century, was in diverse degrees and with many limitations, subject o the French king.

"Paris, his capital, was in 1180 a city of wooden buildings and muddy streets. Its Roman name, Lutetia, had meant the town of mud.

"Philip Augustus, shocked by the smell of the thoroughfares that ran beside the Seine, ordered that all the streets of Paris should be paved with solid stone."

The ancestry of Great and Glorious France.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 24, 2006 - 06:38 am
Lutecia: Gallo-Roman town was already thriving in 1180 in spite of its muddy streets. Stone street pavement was rare then and only a thriving economy permitted it but it took more than that to stop discarding sewage out the window onto the street below. It's the first time, if I remember, that Durant mentions smelly streets of that era.

Rich7
January 24, 2006 - 05:32 pm
Eloise,

Great summary of the history of Paris.

I've always wondered why the symbol of the city of Paris is a ship. Paris is not a port city. In fact it's not on the ocean. I think your link to the history of the city helped me understand. The original Gallic town that later became Paris was on an island in the Seine (The Ile de la Cite). The Romans expanded the city to the left bank.

Getting to the city and commuting between the left bank and the Ile de la Cite, you needed a boat.

Is my assumption wrong?

Rich

Justin
January 24, 2006 - 07:14 pm
No, Rich. Your assumption is correct. This another good time to look at the images Mal posted for us on the Tres Riche Heures. There are pictures of Paris as it looked in the thirtenth century as well as images of workers and buildings in that period. They people are at work and at play. The peasants as usual are the workers and the Duke and his cohorts are the players. I will try to find the earlier posting and post the number.

Justin
January 24, 2006 - 07:29 pm
Rich; Posting # 376 shows all four quarters of the Tres Riches Heures.

robert b. iadeluca
January 24, 2006 - 07:47 pm
"Philip Augustus was the first of three powerful rulers who in this age raised France to the intellectual, moral, and political leadership of Europe.

"But there had been strong men before him. Philip I made a secure niche for himself in history by divorcing his wife at forty and persuading Count Fulk of Anjou to cede to him the Countess Bertrade.

"A priest was found to solemnize the adultery as marriage, but Pope Urban II, coming to France to preach the First Crusade, excommunicated the King.

"Philip persisted in sin for twelve years. At last he sent Bertrade away and was shriven. But a while later he repented his repentance and resumed his Queen.

"She traveled with him to Anjou, taught her two husbands amity, and seems to have served both of them to the best of her charms.

"Having grown fat at forty-five, Philip handed over the major affairs of state to his son Louis VI, himself known as Louis the Fat.

"He deserved a better name. For twenty-four years he fought, finally with success, the robber barons who plundered travelers on the roads.

"He strengthened the monarchy by organizing a competent army. He did what he could to protect the peasants, the artisans, and the communes. He had the good sense to make the Abbot Suger his chief minister and friend.

"Suger of St. Denis was the Richelieu of the twelfth century. He managed the affairs of France with wisdom, justice, and farsight. He encouraged and imnproved agriculture. He designed and built one of the earliest and finest master pieces of the Gothic style. He wrote an illuminating account of his ministry and work.

"He was the most valuable bequest left by Louis the Fat to his son, whom Suger served until death."

Your comments, please, about Philip the Fat, Louis the Fat, and Countess Bertrade?

Robby

Justin
January 25, 2006 - 03:12 pm
That is a fat posting, Robby. Not only do we have on hand a King who lusted after another's wife (Like David and Bathsheba) but a woman who loved both husbands. Phillip was "shriven" after he sent her back having found joy with her for twelve years.I wasn't sure what shriven meant till I looked it up. I was worried that he might have suffered as Abelard had suffered. But not to worry, he was just absolved after excommunication. The Popes were snooping in bedrooms again. Poor Phillip, he then repented his repentance, and resumed his queen. He probably beat that rap because the Pope wanted his help with a Crusade. This part of history reads more like a soap opera than history.

Rich7
January 25, 2006 - 04:05 pm
Shriven: To be confessed and pardoned for your sins.

(I had to look it up, too.)

Rich

mabel1015j
January 26, 2006 - 12:31 am
I find your statement interesting Justin. "This part of history reads more like a soap opera than history." How should history read? What is a soap opera but the story of lives of people, which is just what history is, no?.......In fact, we like the present-day historians because they tell us many more personal histories and make it much more interesting......When i talk about the personal lives and personalities and the reasons people made the decisions that they did, my students ask me "why didn't they teach us this in my public school history classes, I would have liked history if they had.".......jean

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2006 - 02:34 am
"Louis VII was the man of whom Eleanor of Aquitaine said that she had married a king only to find him a monk.

"He labored conscientiously at his royal tasks but his virtues ruined him. His devotion to government appeared to Ealeanor as marital neglect. His patience with her amours added insult to negligence. She divorced him and gave her hand and her duchy of Aquitaine to Henry II of England.

"Disillusioned with life, Louis turned to piety and left to his son the task of building a strong France.

"Philip II Augustus, like a later Philippe, was a bourgeois gentilhomme on the throne -- a master of practical intelligence softened with sentiment -- a patron of learning with no taste for it -- a man of shrewd caution and prudent courage -- of quick temper, and ready amnesty -- of unscrupulous but controlled acquisitiveness -- of a moderated piety that could be generous to the Church, without allowing religion to countermand his politics -- and of a patient perseverance that won what bold adventurousness might never have attained.

"Such a man, at once prosaic and auguste, amiably inflexible and ruthlessly wise, was what his country needed at a time when, between Henry II's England and Barbarossa's Germany, France might have ceased to be."

We keep remarking in this discussin that there are always wars and hatreds and conquests and that people should be peaceful. Louis was peaceful and see what happened.

How about Philip? All things to all people? Is that the answer?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 26, 2006 - 06:57 am
Eleanor of Aquitaine


At last here we find a woman of significance but in the link above we find that because of her, France could never have ceased to be. "At 15 she married the future Louis V11 of France had 2 children with him. She coaxed her husband into undertaking a crusade where she accompanied him. At 30 her marriage was annulled, she married 18 year old Henri de Plantagenet, had 8 children, 2 of which would later become King of England. She died in a monastery at the age of 82" having had a great influence in both France and England but Durant is not spending much time on her it seems to me.

ALF
January 26, 2006 - 07:08 am
Is this the same Phillip II of France who added much property and established royal power in many diffrent countries to add to the French monacrchy? Many new possessions allowed the French monarchy to become a maritieme and commercial power.

JoanK
January 26, 2006 - 11:18 am
Hi, guys. This is the first discussion I found in Seniornet, and always my favorite. I'll be lurking for awhile, as my world has turned upside down, but I'll be back.

My husband of 50 years passed away suddenly and unexpectedly on Monday. I am still in shock, I don't think I really believe yet that it happened. But he died just the way we all want to -- suddenly, with no pain. My family is all here, and competing in taking care of me -- I had to push them to get them out of the house for a few minutes so I could post.

I'm sorry to have missed the discussion of Holland -- we are really coming to know it in Rembrandt's Eyes. Save some of the really good stuff for me when I come back. Love, Joan

Scrawler
January 26, 2006 - 11:26 am
I am always saying things like: Peace or peace always. But what happened to Phillip makes me wonder what would it mean if we did have PEACE. It seems to me that history is more driven by wars, hatred, and conquests than anything else.

Bubble
January 26, 2006 - 11:35 am
(((((Hugss JoanK)))). Bubble

Traude S
January 26, 2006 - 12:58 pm
The more things change, the more they stay the same, the saying goes. Wars recur with regularity, and have through the centuries, often more than one in the same generation.

Can "civilization" be reconciled with wars ? How ? Kurt Vonnegut's new collection of brief essays, written in the last five years and titled "A Man without a Country", makes for poignant (if sometimes painful) reading.

Justin
January 26, 2006 - 01:20 pm
If the Church annulled the marriage of Louis and Eleanor after two children, the marriage was invalid at the start. What is the status of the children. Are they bastards of convenience? What a crazy world we live in.

Justin
January 26, 2006 - 01:31 pm
Mabel: My thought about soap opera and history was this; In soap opera events pile up rapidly. They tend to cluster. The characters in a soap opera have multiple experiences. Everything happens to them. In history a person may have one interesting experience in a life time and sometimes people go through life without anything significant happening to them. That is the contrast I had in mind. The fellow we were examining gave up his wife, stole someone else's wife, was excommunicated, gave up the new bride, was shriven, took back the bride, etc.

mabel1015j
January 26, 2006 - 01:34 pm

MeriJo
January 26, 2006 - 02:20 pm
This is the way Durant writes. He lists a sequence of events in rapid order - which considering the transportation mode of that time and the way messages had to be sent would have taken considerably longer. Plus, for every action to sink in and then be acted upon, several weeks would have had to intervene - months even.

Don't forget. They (Louis and Eleanor) were both in their teens at the time.

I think this is in keeping with Durant's goal with the "Story of Civilization". He is presenting, as he said, "The Story of Philosophy."

MeriJo
January 26, 2006 - 02:27 pm
Joan K.

My most sincere sympathy to you. I am sorry for your loss.

Justin
January 26, 2006 - 04:20 pm
Eloise; I think you are right. Durant seems to play down the role of strong women. Let's see what he does with Blanche,Isabella d"Estes, and Catherine.

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2006 - 04:20 pm
I can usually find something to say on almost any subject but at this point am completely speechless. I can only say, Joan, that I hope you feel the sad emotion within me. Please keep in mind that we are all by your side.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 26, 2006 - 05:23 pm
"The marriages of Philip II Augustus disturbed Europe.

"His first wife, Isabella, died in 1189. Four years later he married Ingeborg, a princess of Denmark. These marriages were political and brought more property than romance.

"Ingbeborg was not to Philip's taste. He ignored her after a day. Within the year he persuaded a council of French bishops to grant him a divorce. Pope Celestine III refused to confirm the decree.

"In 1196, defying the Pope, he married Agnes of Meran. Celestine excommunicated him but Philip remained obstinate. He said in a moment of tenderness:-'I had rather lose half my domains than separate from Agnes.'

"Innocent III commanded him to take back Ingeborg. When Philip refused, the invincible Pope interdicted religious services in Philip's domain. Philip, in a rage, deposed all bishops who obeyed the interdict. He mourned:-'Happy Saladin! who had no pope above him.' He threatened to turn Mohammedan. After four years of this spiritual war the people began to grumble with fear of hell.

"Philip dismissed his beloved Agnes but left Ingeborg confined at Etampes until 1213 when he recalled her to his bed."

Those of us reared in a democracy and who think that a king has absolute power may not realize "how uneasy lies the head that wears the crown."

Robby

Justin
January 26, 2006 - 06:44 pm
I'm sorry, Joan. Life is not always easy, is it? I don't think there is anything harder than being left alone after fifty years of love and companionship. Stay on line with us and post often. It may help a little.

Justin
January 26, 2006 - 09:41 pm
Phillip had a difficult time because he allowed the Pope to bully him. Phillip should have turned to Islam if he had to have both God and an exciting bedmate. Any good Muslim will tell you, "if your wife does not please you, send her back to her papa and get a new bride." Phillip's papa had similar problems, you will recall, and the Pope objected to no avail.

A few cnturies down the lin we will see that the Pope forces Henry Vlll to divorce by separating the ladies from their heads. This religion thing can be quite a problem for kings and their women.

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2006 - 04:56 am
"Amid these joys and tribulations Philip reconquered Normandy from England and in the next two years annexed Brittany, Anjou, Maine, Touraine, and Poitou to his directly ruled terrain.

"He was now strong enough to dominate all the dukes, counts, and seigneurs of his realm. His baillis and seneschals supervised local government. His kingdom had become an international power, not a strip of land along the Seine.

"John of England, so shorn, was not resigned. He persuaded Otto IV of Germany and the counts of Boulogne and Flanders to join him against this swelling France.

"John would attack through Aquitaine (still England's), the others from the northeast. Instead of dividing his forces to meet these separate assaults, Philip led his main army against John's allies and defeated them at Bouvines, near Lille.

"That battle decided many issues. It deposed Otto, secured the German throne to Frederick II, ended Germany hegemony, and hastened the decline of the Holy Roman Empire. It reduced the counts of Flanders to French obedience, added Amiens, Douai, Lille, and St. Quentin to the Frnech crown, and in effect extended northeaastern France to the Rhine.

"It left John helpless against his barons and forced him to sign Magna Carta. It weakened monarchy anbd strengthened feudalism in England and Germany while it strengthened monarchy and weakened feudalism in France.

"And it favored the growth of the French communes and middle classes which had vigorously supported Philip in peace and war.

"Having trebled the royal domain, Philip governed it with devotion and skill.

"Half the time at odds with the Church, he replaced ecclesiastics in council and administration with men from the rising lawyer class.

"He gave charters of autonomy to many cities, encouraged trade by privileges to merchants, alternately protected and plundered the Jews, and fattened his exchequer by commuting feudal services into money payments. The royal revenue was doubled from 600 to 1200 livres ($240,000) a day.

"In his reign the facade of Notre Dame was completed and the Louvre was built as a fortress to guard the Seine.

"When Philip died (1223) the France of today had been born."

This is BIG stuff here! Any comments?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 27, 2006 - 05:54 am
I had the priviledge of visiting all but 9 of the FRENCH COUNTIES and everyone of them is worth the struggle to keep France together. See how evenly divided in size the counties are.

"He gave charters of autonomy to many cities, encouraged trade by privileges to merchants, alternately protected and plundered the Jews, and fattened his exchequer by commuting feudal services into money payments. The royal revenue was doubled from 600 to 1200 livres ($240,000) a day." The Jews persecuted and what else is new. I am surprised to read "livres/pounds" instead of "francs", but perhaps this came afterwards.

Here are some of the rivers RIVER MAP OF FRANCE and if I remember, fresh water is not very abundant like it is here I found and rivers play a major role in each city they run through.

Rich7
January 27, 2006 - 07:32 am
Eloise,

Your map of the French counties is interesting. They are all almost equal in area except for little Corsica, but that's where our "Little Corporal" (Napoleon) came from wasn't it?

Big things come in little packages.

I think I remember reading once, that the people of French Departments and Territories such as Martinique and French Polynesia are full French citizens with all the rights and privileges that any Frenchman living in Paris enjoys. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

Rich

Rich7
January 27, 2006 - 07:37 am
Regarding Philip. "Half the time at odds with the Church, he replaced ecclesiastics in council and administration with men from the rising lawyer class."

Out of the frying pan and into the fire?

The lesser of two evils?

There has to be an appropriate cliché.

Rich

Rich7
January 27, 2006 - 07:41 am
Hey, I just discovered that if you use spell check, it automatically puts accents when they are needed in French words (such as cliché).

Wonder if it puts umlauts over German words?

Rich

Bubble
January 27, 2006 - 07:54 am
Rich, use Alt + 130 0n the activated numeric pad and you will get é.

Justin
January 27, 2006 - 04:28 pm
Both Notre Dame, Paris and the Louvre are alive and functioning today. The buildings are both national treasures and monuments to Phillip.

Abbot Suger, friend of Louis le Gros, built the Abbey of Saint Denis a short distance outside paris. Saint Denis was martyred by the Romans in Paris. He is said to have picked up his head after removal in the usual manner and carried it to a Roman milestone out side Paris where he put it down. It is on that spot that Dagobert had built the first Carolingian basilica. In 1120 Abbot Suger rebuilt abbey. Kings are buried in front of the altar and so the abbey is called "royal". The head of St. Denis now reposes in a reliquary and is stored the treasury of the Abbey along with the iron collar worn in prison by St. Denis.The base of a pillar in the abbey is inscribed with the Latin markings of a ROman milestone.

Rich7
January 27, 2006 - 05:17 pm
The Basilica of St. Denis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Denis_Basilica

Most Americans, when asked who is the patron saint of France would answer St. Joan (Joan of Ark). However, France's patron saint is St. Denis.

Rich

Rich7
January 27, 2006 - 05:31 pm
I may have to correct myself. Later "Googling" shows both Joan and Denis as patron saints of France. Perhaps they share the honor. Any help here would be appreciated.

Rich

Adrbri
January 27, 2006 - 05:48 pm
http://www.paris.org/Kiosque/nov96/denis.html

Brian

Adrbri
January 27, 2006 - 06:29 pm
St Denis and St Joan (of Arc) will have to share with many others, including St Anne, and no less a personage than Our Lady, the Mother of Jesus.

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/pst00301.htm

Brian

Rich7
January 27, 2006 - 06:41 pm
Thanks for the clarification, Brian. I knew I was getting in over my head, when it began to be apparent that France had more than one patron saint.

Note to St. Denis: No pun intended on the "head" remark.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2006 - 06:42 pm
Welcome to our family here, Brian. Let us have your comments as we move along.

The GREEN quotes in Heading will show you where we are in the book.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2006 - 06:43 pm
St. Louis

robert b. iadeluca
January 27, 2006 - 06:56 pm
"Philip's son Louis VIII ruled too briefly to accomplish much.

"History remembers him chiefly for having married the admirable Blanche of Castile and begetting by her the one man in medieval history who like Ashoka in ancient India succeeded in being at once and in fact a saint and a king.

"Louis IX was twelve, his mother was thirty-eight, when Louis VIII died. Daughter of Alfonso IX of Castile, granddaughter of Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine, Blanche lived up to her royal blood. She was a woman of beauty and charm, energy, character, and skill. At the same time she impressed her age by her untarnished virtue as wife and widow and her devotion as the mother of eleven children.

"France honored her not only as Blanche la bonne reine, but equally as Blanche la bonne mere. She freed many serfs on the royal estates, spent great sums on charity, and provided dowries for girls whose poverty discourged love.

"She helped to finance the building of Chartres Cthedral and it was through her influence that its stained glass showed Mary not as virgin but as queen.

"She loved her son Louis too jealously and was ungenerous to his wife. She trained him sedulously to Christian virtue and told him that she would rather see him dead than have him commit a mortal sin.

"But it was not her doing that he became a devotee. She herself rarely sacrificed policy to sentiment. She joined in the cruel Albigensian Crusade to extend the power of the crown in southern France. For nine years, while Louis grew up, she governed the realm.

"And seldom has France been better ruled. At the outset of her regency the barons revolted, thinking to recapture from a woman the powers they had lost to Philip II. She overcame them with wise and patient diplomacy. She resisted England ably and then signed a truce on jhust terms.

"When Louis IX came of age and assumed the government, he inherited a kingdom powerful, prosperous, and at peace."

France ably ruled by a Spaniard?

Robby

Justin
January 27, 2006 - 07:16 pm
Almost every town with a cathedral has named their cathedral Notre Dame or Our Lady and one must add the city to Notre Dame for clarification.There is Notre Dame de Laon and Notre Dame de Noyons, Notre Dame de Paris, etc. etc.

If I had to choose a saint to represent France I would choose Notre Dame, however, Our Lady is not thought of as a saint in the usual sense.She is thought of as the Blessed Mother-something outside the panoply of saints-a being on a higher plane.

Justin
January 27, 2006 - 07:43 pm
Translating Latin always challenges me but in Suger's "De Consecratione" there is a passage that is interesting. The Abbey is under construction and the main arches are not yet held together by the severies. They are vaulted independently. In this condition there suddenly arose a terrible and almost unbearable storm with an inundation of rain and a violent rush of wind. It blew down well built houses and even stone towers. Bishop Geofrey was celebrating Mass. The force of the gales hurled itself against the arches that were trembling as they swayed. The Bishop, alarmed by the vibration extended his blessing hand in the direction of that part in sway. He made the sign of the cross with Saint Simeon's arm so he escaped disaster. The arches escaped damage.

I could be off a little in several places but that's it in the main. Perhaps I should send the Latin to Traude or to Ginny for confirmation.

Saint Simeon's arm was taken out of it's reliquary and waved in spiritual symbolism at the creaky parts of the new abbey church and as result the troubled unsupported parts were spared. There is another similar story about the Virgin's Chemise at Chartres- also a Notre Dame.

Justin
January 27, 2006 - 08:03 pm
While I am doing so well here I think I'll try another.There are interesting stories about many of these great French churches. This one is also in De Consecratione. Suger is talking about sacrifices to God and to the Holy Martyrs.He say's... the workers and the draft animals, the oxen, were quiet and not working.When the columns were hauled from the bottom (of the hill) with ropes knotted our own pople and the pious neighbors, nobles and common together, would tie their arms and chests and shoulders to the ropes and as draft animals draw the columns up. In the middle of town the craftsmen laid aside thir tools and put their own strengh against the load.

Boy! That's dedication and faith.

Justin
January 27, 2006 - 08:13 pm
The grand daughter of Eleanor of Acquitaine can hardly be seen as a Spaniard.Blanche was a powerhouse. She was religious but did not exhibit the fanatacism of the Spanish. She was pious but kept Church and State decisions in separate realms. She gave in once to the Pope on the Albigensians but she did that principally for France. She wanted the Province in her hands and not those of the Count d Toulouse.

mabel1015j
January 27, 2006 - 10:22 pm
what the heck does that mean? Durant just throws that statement out there and lets it float. I'm going to have to do some research on Blanche. I knew of her, but nothing about her personal life......jean

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2006 - 04:06 am
"Louis IX was a handsome lad, taller by a head than most of his knights, with finely cut features and colorful clothes -- no bookworm but given to hunting and falconry, amusements and athletic games -- not yet a saint, for a monk complained to Blanche of the royal flirtations.

"She found him a wife and he settled down. He became a model of conjugal fidelty and parental energy. He had eleven children and took an intimate share in their education.

"Gradually he abandoned luxury, lived more and more simply, and consumed himself in government, charity, and piety.

"He had a kingly conception of monarchy as an organ of national unity and continuity and as a protection of the poor and weak against the superior or fortunte few."

Amy comments?

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
January 28, 2006 - 05:43 am
"Most medieval historians would argue that the existence of France proper did not begin until the advent of the Capetian Dynasty in 987,"

This DYNASTY ruled France for almost one thousand years and has left a mark on France that will never be totally erased because of what it left behind. The extraordinary monuments, statuary and culture that even two bloody wars of the 20th century didn't destroy were preserved but at a very high cost.

The cost was the surrender to the hated enemy from East. Even the enemy was reluctant to destroy France's magnificent monuments built during the reign of the Capetian Kings of France whereas England lost a tremendous amount of their architectural heritage during those wars.

France still holds dear its defunct aristocracy and people like to flaunt every drop of aristocratic blood at every chance they get. They preserve with tender loving care castles of every size and condition still scattered throughout the country and try to discourage foreign visitors who flock there to admire them, by keeping them at a distance.

As the French Revolution didn't quite manage to kill the aristocracy, it will take more than a thousand years before the French are as equal among themselves as Americans are.

mabel1015j
January 28, 2006 - 03:42 pm
He sounds like a marvelous executive, apparently being overloved by his mother didn't hurt him and may have contributed to his compassion for others. Do you have a comment on that kind of relationship Robby?.

This reminds me when I read bios of our presidents, it has often been the mothers of those men who had the strongest influence on them: Mother Roosevelt, Mrs Carter, Mrs Reagan, Mrs Clinton, Nancy Hanks Lincoln. Is there something there that we haven't paid attention to?...jean

robert b. iadeluca
January 28, 2006 - 04:27 pm
"Louis IX respected the rights of the nobles, encouraged them to fulfill their obligations to serfs and vassals and suzerain but would brook no feudal infringements of the new royal power.

"He interfered resolutely to repress injustices of lord to man and in several cases severely punished barons who had executed men without due trial.

"When Enguerrand de Coney hanged three Flemish students for killing some rabbits on his estate, Louis had him locked up in the tower of the Louvre, threatened to hang him, and released him on condition tht he build three chapels where Masses were to be said daily for his victims -- that he give the forest where the young scholars had hunted to the abbey of St. Nicholas -- that he lose on his estates the rights of jurisdiction and hunting -- that he serve three years in Palestine -- and pay the King a fine of 12,300 pounds.

"Louis forbade feud vengeance and private feudal war and condemned the judicial duel. As trial by evidence replaced trial by combat, the baronial courts were progressively superseded by the royal courts, organized in each locality by the bailiffs of the King. The right of appeal from baronial judges to the central royal court was established and in France, as in England, the thirteenth century saw feudal law give way to a common law of the realm.

"Never since Roman days had France enjoyed such security and prosperity. In this reign the wealth of France sufficed to bring Gothic archiatecture to its greatest abundance and perfection."

Could this be considered benign despotism?

Robby

Rich7
January 28, 2006 - 04:40 pm
What's not to like about Louis IX? After reading hundreds of pages about bloodthirsty, selfish and acquisitive leaders in the SOC we find someone who has the power to lead France out of the chaos of feudal law...and he exercises that power for good.

I like this guy.

Compare him with England's King John, who had to be practically dragged to Runnymede to reluctantly sign the Magna Carta. (And after signing it, immediately began plotting to kill everyone associated with its drafting.)

Louis seemed to subscribe to a Teddy Roosevelt-type policy of "Talk softly, but carry a big stick."

He also appeared to have a vision for France. (Or was it his mother's vision?)

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2006 - 05:34 am
Not seeing any further interest in St. Louis, I am getting ready to move onto Philip the Fair.

Robby

Bubble
January 30, 2006 - 07:46 am
St Louis and Aigues Mortes from where he twice departed for the crusades

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aigues-Mortes

"C'est de là que Saint-Louis partit par deux fois pour les Croisades : la septième croisade en 1248 et la huitième croisade en 1270 pour Tunis où il mourrut de la peste."

Sorry, I did not find it in English. Scroll down to see the two towers St Louis built for the protection of the town.

Adrbri
January 30, 2006 - 12:29 pm
Information in English

http://www.aigues-mortes.com/anglais/historique/html/livre.html

Brian

Adrbri
January 30, 2006 - 01:42 pm
Interestingly, Philip was neither fair nor scrupulous.

He was the first to devalue currency, and in many other ways he would
have made an ideal modern politician.

http://www.templarhistory.com/philip.html

Brian

ALF
January 30, 2006 - 02:03 pm

Justin
January 30, 2006 - 04:00 pm
Let's not rush past Louis lX too quickly. This man plays a role in the US long after his death. An equestrian bronze of Louis looks west across the Missisippi and in front of the University of St. Louis. A major city founded by French fur traders in 1760 bears his name. St. Louis came us from Napoleon in the Louisiana Purchase. One of our states bears his name- Louisiana. This man is not forgotten in the US though he preceded out birth by many centuries.

Louis is a guy after our own hearts. He is a man of genuine character and yet he is a rube. We could sell him the Brooklyn Bridge with no trouble. Baldwin of Constantinople sold him the "Crown of Thorns" and a piece of the "True Cross" twelve hundred years after the event. He mourns over a lost "Nail." Louis is a strong believer. One very nice thing that came out of Louis' gulibility is the reliquary of Saint Chapelle in Paris. The reliquary is a small two tiered High Gothic church in the heart of Paris. It's walls are made of stained glass and when the sun comes in the nave is bathed in color.

I once had the pleasure of sitting in the upper church during a Gregorian concert given by Augustinian monks. The pleasure of the event was more than many could bear. Tears were noticeable on many faces. I have thought about those sounds in that beautiful setting many times since and each time I know some of the pleasure again.Thanks, Louis.

robert b. iadeluca
January 30, 2006 - 04:29 pm
Justin says:-"Let's not rush past Louis lX too quickly."

Please keep in mind, folks, that if there are no postings that, to me, means there is no interest. You people are the engine of this discussion group.

Robby

Justin
January 30, 2006 - 07:59 pm
Perhaps, Durant did not say enough about Louis 9 to bring on lots of comment but this guy was deeply involved in his period. Pope Gregory gave the Dominicans independent authority to root out and treat with heresy. They did both with vigor and launched the Inquisition. Louis supported the Inquisition even though his bishops objected to the measure. I suspect the Bishops resented the intrusion of Dominicans in dioscesan affairs. Louis was not kind to the Jews and so they suffered in this mini holocaust. This was also the time of Albigension activity in the south and these people with their simple variation of christian doctrine were persecuted.

JoanK
January 30, 2006 - 10:34 pm
Thank you for all your warm thoughts.

Things are calming down a bit here. We had a memorial "visitation" for Dick on Saturday: not a service, we just rented a room and filled it with pictures of Dick, including funny ones of him when he grew that awful beard for people to laugh at.. People came and left, wondered around talked. The little kids all hid under couches or ran around. People I hadn't seen in years came, and I got to talk to everyone -- real conversations. It was great! Dick would have loved it.

Now I'm mired in business and forms. I'm going back to California with my daughter next week to visit for a few weeks. I have to decide whether to try to continue in my house in Maryland without Dick, or move to the LA area to be near my daughter. So we will be looking to see if there is anything I can afford. Does anyone know anything about Senior apartments in LA county?

It's all very bewildering. But I'll be back as soon as I get my feet under me.

robert b. iadeluca
January 31, 2006 - 04:03 am
"Louis IX believed and proved that a government could be just and generous in its foreign relations without losing prestige and power.

"He avoided war as long as possible but when aggression threatened he organized his armies efficiently, planned his campaigns, and -- in Europe -- carried them through with energy and skill to an honorable peace that left no passion for revenge.

"As soon as the safety of France was assured, he adopted a policy of conciliation which accepted the compromise of opposed rights while rejecting the appeasement of unjust claims.

"He restored to England and Spain territory that his predecessors had seized. His councilors mourned, but peace endured and France remained free from attack even during the long absences of Louis on crusades. Said William of Chartres:-'Men feared him because they knew that he was just.'

"From 1243 to 1270 France waged no war against a Christian foe. When her neighbors fought one another, Louis labored to reconcile them, scorning the suggestion of his council that such strife should be fomented to weaken potential enemies.

"Foreign kings submitted their disputes to his arbitration. People marveled that so good a man should be so good a king."

Your postings (or lack thereof) will tell me whether we should continue with Louis or move on in the chapter.

Robby

mabel1015j
January 31, 2006 - 11:56 pm

3kings
February 1, 2006 - 01:32 am
A saint ? I think not. Christianity is not about marching with the gospel in one hand, and a blood smeared sword in the other. It seems he mostly avoided war with other 'Christian' nations, so that he could concentrate on killing the Muslims.

Apparently he thought he could advance Christianity by indulging in slaughter of people who happened to be born in non-Christian countries. This is clearly the belief of a lunatic. Look around at the leaders of the nations to day. Everywhere there is much killing, and often under the banner of religion.+== Trevor

Scrawler
February 1, 2006 - 10:39 am
"Louis IX believed and proved that a government could be just and generous in its foreign relations without losing prestige and power."

What are the most important words here? I think the phrase "without losing prestige and power" are the most important. So I don't think I'd call him a saint, but rather that he was looking out for himself and perhaps by giving back some land he avoided war. But if he had lost his "power" I think that like all the other kings he would have gladly slaughtered even the Christian kingdoms to preserve his power and prestige.

Justin
February 1, 2006 - 03:06 pm
Well said, Trevor. The problem, I think, was in the prevailing views of the period. Papal encouragement, nay, Papal direction to attack,to make war on the infidels to ensure uninhibited access to middle eastern religious sites was the source of the lunacy.Louis 9 was just doing his duty as a Catholic King. But he did the job poorly. Attacking Egypt was a ridiculous venture. It cost him his entire army and himself a captive. He would have lost his head as his soldiers did theirs were it not for mama Blanche and her fundraising talents. Freed, he tried the venture again and died in the effort. He was neither saint nor sinner but a foolish man who held the sceptor of power. Unfortunately, his type has appeared again and again in history. The type is with us today in the US.

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2006 - 04:00 pm
"Louis IX was not 'that perfect monster whom the world ne'er knew' -- the completely faultless man.

"He was occasionally irritable, perhaps through ill health. The simplicity of his soul sometimes verged upon culpable ignorance or credulity, as in the ill conceived crusades and maladroit campaigns in Egypt and Tunisia where he lost many lives beesides his own and though he was honest with his Moslem enemies, he could not apply to them the same generous understanding that had succeeded so well with his Christian foes.

"His childlike certitude of belief led him to a religious intolerance that helped to establish the Inquisition in France and it quieted his natural pity for the victims of the Albigensian Crusade.

"His treasury was swelled by confiscating the goods of condemned heretics and his usual good humor failed him toward the French Jews.

"But with these deductions he came nobly close to the Christian ideal.

"Reports Joinville:-'On no day of my life did I ever hear him speak evil of anyone.' When his Moslem captors accepted by mistake a sum 10,000 livres ($2,000,000) short of the ransom promised for his release, Louis, restored safely to freedom, sent to the Saracens the additional payment in full, to the disgust of his councilors.

"Before leaving on his first crusade he bade his officials, throughout his realm, to 'receive in writing, and to examine, the grievances that may be brought against us or our ancestors, as also allegations of injustics or exactions of which our bailiffs, provosts, foresters, sergeants, or their subordinats may have bene guilty.'

"He would settle some cases himself and turn others over to the councilors seated about him but he gave each pleader the right of appeal to the king. He founded and endowed hoospitals, asylums, monasteries, hospices, a home for the blind, and another (the Filles-Dieu) for redeemed prostitues.

"He ordered his agents in each province to search out the old and poor and provide for them at the public expense. Wherever he went he made it a principle to feed, every day, 120 poor people. He had three of them join him for dinner, served them himself, and washed their feet.

"Like Henry III of England, he waited on lepers and fed them with his own hands. When famine struck Normandy he spent an enormous sum getting food to the needy there. He gave alms daily to the sick, the poor, widows, women in confinement, prostitutes, disabled workingmen 'so that hardly it would be possible to number his alms.'

"Nor were these acts of charity spoiled by publicity. The poor whose feet he washed were chosen from the blind. The act was done in private and the recipients were not told that their attendant was the king.

"His ascetic self-lacerations were unknown to others until revealed on his flesh after his death."

Isn't it interesting that we find such a person almost unbelievable? We tend to believe the evil rather than the good.

Robby

Justin
February 1, 2006 - 04:50 pm
The acts of Louis 9 were mixed as are the acts of most of us. Some things we do are selfless and generous other things are stupid and foolish. There are two things we can say about Louis 9 that are meaningful. He was human and he did human things which because of his position in life resulted in extreme consequences.

3kings
February 1, 2006 - 09:06 pm
"Isn't it interesting that we find such a person almost unbelievable? We tend to believe the evil rather than the good." -- Robby

I think this is because acts of goodness do not have terminal consequences. "Evil" acts so often do have terminal consequences. Sending large quantities of goods and services to the survivors of an Earthquake or Tsunami restores their wellbeing and probably prolongs their lives. Dropping napalm, high explosives, or chemicals on people, results only in the death or shortening of those persons lives.

The good act is pregnant with possibilities for the future. The "evil" action has only one consequence, death.

"How many deaths will it take till we know, Too many people have died?" ==Trevor

Justin
February 1, 2006 - 11:29 pm
Trevor: That number is 2223. We are beginning to see it for what it is. It is a high price for folly.

robert b. iadeluca
February 1, 2006 - 11:39 pm
I assume we are not ready to move onto a political discussion.

Robby

Justin
February 2, 2006 - 12:02 am
No. We are not ready, Robby. That's just a slip. Sorry. I felt prompted.

MeriJo
February 2, 2006 - 12:33 pm
French Lyric Poetry to the 13th Century

The troubadours no longer considered women to be the disposable assets of men. Usually written in Occitan, a medieval language -

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-22490

THE WOMEN OF THE CENTURY.

Women of the century worthy of the great period. St. Clare of Assisi's place in history. Happiness. The supper at the Portiuncula. Peace, in the cloister and woman's influence. Equality of sexes in the religious orders. St. Elizabeth of Hungary, the first settlement worker. "Dear St. Elizabeth's" influence on women since her time. Blanche of Castile as Queen and mother. Her influence as a ruler. Difficulties with her daughter-in-law. Mabel Rich, the London tradesman's wife, and her sons. Isabella Countess of Arundel and courageous womanly dignity. Women's work in the century. Service of the sick. Co-education in Italy. Reason for absence in France and England. Women professors at Italian universities. Feminine education four times in history. Reasons for decline. Women in the literature of the century. The high place accorded them by the poets of every country. Dante's tribute to their charm without a hint of the physical.

In this reference, I particularly liked the "synopsis" of each Chapter. One may click on any of the chapters for a further explanation. One could study for months about that period that produced much of the grandeur of the French 13th Century when Louis IX ruled.

http://www.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/walsh.htm

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2006 - 04:22 pm
"Despite his monastic propensities, Louis always remained the king and preserved the royal majesty, even when, as Fra Salimbene describes him, 'spare and slender having the face of an angel, and a countenance full of grace,' he appeared on foot, in pilgrim's habit and with pilgrim's staff, to begin his first crusade.

"Queen Blanche, whom he left, despite her sixty years, as regent with the fullest powers, wept as they parted. 'Most sweet fair son, fair tender son, I shall never see you more.'

"He was captured in Egypt and was held for a ransom that Blanche with great difficulty raised and paid. But when, defeated and humbled, he returned to France, he found his mother dead.

"In 1270, weak with illness, he set out again, this time for Tunisia. It was not so quixotic an enterprise as its failure made it out to be. Louis had allowed his brother, Charles of Anjou, to lead a French army into Italy not only to check German domination there, but also in the hope that Sicily might be made a base for a French invasion of Tunisia.

"Shortly after reaching Tunisia the great crusader, older in body than in years, died of dysentery. Twenty seven years later the Church cannonized him. Generations and centuries looked back to his reign as the Golden Age of France and wondered why an inscrutable Providence would not send them his like again.

"He was a Christian king."

Anything further before we move on to Philip the Fair?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 2, 2006 - 04:35 pm
Is THIS France?

Robby

Justin
February 2, 2006 - 07:06 pm
Sure, France and especially Paris,is an attitude as much as a piece of real estate, perhaps more so than we think. Even when the Parisians are rude to us Hawaiian shirted,camera toting, American tourists, we love them. One simply has to attend a dedication service at the Arc de Triumph to realize how much we have in common.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 3, 2006 - 03:15 am
Here is an American point of view:

J'AIME LA FRANCE

If he knows the language it helps a lot otherwise you only see the bad side, but when you become familiar with them they are just like us, friendly and amusing, Oh! well most of the time anyway.

The French imitate everything Americans do and say, is that not a proof of love? They adopted the slang, the food, the television programs but it's true they don't like to eat dinner before 8 and eating is a ritual more than a chore. They love Canadians and adore Céline Dion even if she speaks Quebec French. In fact we still speak the French of the 17th century, perhaps that is why they are fond of us!!!!!!

Justin
February 3, 2006 - 01:56 pm
Eloise: I did not know that Quebecoise is 17th century based. There is so much control excercised by the language cops I should think that Parisian,Languedoc, and Quebecoise would retain many similarities. I always thought the differences were more like the differences between New Hampshire and Texas English. I realize Parisian and Quebecoise have expanded in recent years due to American influence and that should make those two very similar and make Languedoc the quaint language variation.

Rich7
February 3, 2006 - 03:59 pm
Well...I thought I liked Louis IX. I liked him until I came across the Durant line "He introduced the Inquisition to France."

Sorry, Louis, you're no saint.

Rich

Rich7
February 3, 2006 - 04:38 pm
Were you aware that the Vatican still maintains the Holy Office of the Inquisition? Apparently in 1965 they dropped the word "Inquisition" from the name of that Vatican "department" and renamed it the more politically correct Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/biosgloss/definition.cfm?glossID=32

Rich

Justin
February 3, 2006 - 05:52 pm
Sorry Merijo, not just medieval but renaisance and enlightenment as well. The Dominican skills were with us a long time. In fact I thought my Dominican fourth grade teacher was a pretty good torturer. Some of the girls shed frequent tears and we boys often went home with red hands.The eighth grade mother superior also packed a wallop.

MeriJo
February 3, 2006 - 05:56 pm
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

Founded in 1542 by Pope Paul III with the Constitution "Licet ab initio," the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was originally called the Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition as its duty was to defend the Church from heresy. It is the oldest of the Curia's nine congregations.

MeriJo
February 3, 2006 - 06:08 pm
Heck (Is that world permissible?) Justin!

I nearly got expelled three times - People should never have called me a "wop". Regularly got my palms swatted with the ruler for something or other. That was just elementary school. Everything was copasetic in high school - same nuns.

(I deleted the first message I wrote. Wasn't exactly what I wanted to post.)

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2006 - 06:09 pm
Philip the Fair

robert b. iadeluca
February 3, 2006 - 06:18 pm
"France was strengthened by the Crusades in which she took a leading part.

"The long reigns of Philip Augustus and Louis IX gave her government continuity and stability while England suffered the negligent Richard I, the reckless John and the incompetent Henry III, and while Germany disintegrated in the wars between the emperors and the popes.

"By 1300 France was the strongest power in Europe.

"Philip IV was called le Bel for his handsome figure and face, not for his subtle statecrart and pitiless audacity.

"His aims were vast -- to bring all classes -- nobles and clergy as well as townsmen and serfs -- under the direct law and control of the king -- to base French growth on commerce and industry rather than on agriculture -- and to extend the boundaries of France to the Atlantic, the Pyrenees, the Mediteranean, the Alps, and the Rhine.

"He chose his aides and councilors not from the great eccelesiastics and barons who had served French kings for four centuries past, but from the lawyer class that came to him impregnate with the imperial ideas of Roman law.

"Pierre Flotte and Guillaume de Nogarer were brilliant intellects careless of morals and precedents. Under their guidance Philip rebuilt the legal structure of France, replaced feudal with royal law, overcame his foes by shrewd diplomacy and in the end broke the power of the papacy and made the pope in effect a prisoner of France.

"He tried to detch Guienne from England but found Edward I too strong for him.

"He won Champaigne, Brie, and Navarre by marriage and bought with hard cash Chartres, Franche-Comte, the Lyonnais, and part of Lorraine."

Many items here. Your comments about Philip the Fair, please?

Robby

Justin
February 3, 2006 - 11:24 pm
This Capetian King should have been called Phillip the Fat rather than Phillip the Fair. He became fat with the resources of France which he plundered in Taxation. He out foxed the Papacy and moved the Holy See to France with a French Pope. The Vatican abandoned Rome and set up shop in Avignon. For awhile I think there were two rival Popes. Phillip successfully taxed the Church in France which owned about one-fourth the land. No King had been able to do that before. He defeated the Templars and sent the Grand Master to the stake. He banished the Jews and in so doing he wrecked commerce, particularly, the fairs. France was the strongest country in Europe when Louis 9 died but greatly weakened and near bankrupsy, when Phillip died. The country was taxed out and commerce had dried up.

Adrbri
February 5, 2006 - 01:16 pm
Guienne, formally known as Aquitaine, and having Bordeau as its capital, has a long and fascinating history going back before Roman times, and changed hands many times.

It became a part of England when it was brought to Henry II of England by his marriage to Eleanor of Aquitaine and she retained her Court at Poitiers. Edward I managed to retain possession of Guienne in the face of determined opposition from Philip the Fair, and the province was ultimately taken over by France in 1443 - allegedly for non-payment of taxes.

Interestingly, Sir Launcelot held the title of Duke of Guienne, and apparently "dowered his knights with goodly lands and lordships". He even persuaded King Arthur to spend time in the province.

Another area in France with an even more fascinating history in Languedoc - - - but enough for now.

Brian

robert b. iadeluca
February 5, 2006 - 01:25 pm
Thank you, Brian, for those interesting snippets of history. These are the items that many of us were never taught in school.

Robby

Justin
February 5, 2006 - 03:15 pm
Robby: Don't blame the teachers. You just were not listening on that particular afternoon.

Rich7
February 5, 2006 - 06:59 pm
"Phillip...in effect made the Pope a prisoner of France." The Chateauneuf du Pape (New home of the Pope) was in Avignon. No pope there, any more, but the appellation still remains on the label of some of France's finest red wines.

http://www.kobrandwine.com/prodbook/cmr001.html

Rich

Adrbri
February 6, 2006 - 12:39 pm
"Châteauneuf-du-Pape remains one of France's most closely regulated appellations".

Excellent link, Rich.

Brian

robert b. iadeluca
February 6, 2006 - 03:26 pm
"Always needing money, Philip spent half his wits and time inventing taxes and raising funds.

"He commuted for money the military obligations of the barons to the crown.

"He repeatedly debased the coinage and insisted on taxes being paid in bullion or in honest coin.

"He exiled the Jews and the Lombards and destroyed the Templars to confiscate their wealth.

"He forbade the export of precious metal from his realm.

"He laid heavy taxes upon exports, imports, and sales and a war tax of a penny upon every livre of private wealth in France.

"Finally, without consulting the pope, he taxed the wealth of the Church which now owned a quarter of the land of France. The results belong to the story of Boniface VIII.

"When the old Pope, broken by the struggle, died, Philip's agents and money secured the election of a Frenchman as Clement V and the removal of the papacy to Avignon.

"Never had any layman won so great a victory over the Church. Henceforth, in France, the lawyers ruled the priests."

Justin
February 6, 2006 - 10:31 pm
Phillip won over the papacy and so the lawyers ruled over the clerics. Lawyers tend to advise one against taking unnecessary risks in the face of commercial and social uncertainty . Clerics advise against taking unnecessary risks in the face of spiritual uncertainty. I am not sure the exchange of power was beneficial for civilization or even for mankind.

Rich7
February 7, 2006 - 09:10 am
"When the old Pope, broken by the struggle, died, Philip's agents and money secured the election of a Frenchman as Clement V and the removal of the papacy to Avignon."

It's amazing what money can buy. It can even buy you a pope.

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
February 7, 2006 - 06:40 pm
There's a lot more in Post 824 besides "religion" and "the pope." Any further comments on the material given there?

Robby

Traude S
February 7, 2006 - 06:52 pm
JUSTIN, though I have not been on track for a while, your last post gave me the impetus to answer.

Durant's narrative of the period focuses on the French kings. For the papacy, which was involved for centuries in conflicts and conspiracies with the Roman emperors and/or the most powerful secular rulers of the region, it was a particularly dark period characterized by misdeeds and corruption.

The papal court resided in Avignon from 1309-76 and for that reason the era has been referred to also as the "Babylonian Captivity of the Papacy". In fact, antipopes remained in residence in Avignon until 1409.

Justin
February 7, 2006 - 08:00 pm
Robby see 818.

I think Hitler used similar means to obtain revenue to fund the state.He played the inflation-deflation game by changing the rules and he executed the Jews and confiscated their assets down to their gold teeth but I don't think he relieved the barons of obligations to the state for a price. He did insist that money remain at home.

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2006 - 04:34 am
"The age of Philip IV was the age of the troubadours in Provence, of the trouvieres in the north, of the Chanson de Roland and other chansons de geste, of Aucassin et Nicolette and the Roman de la Rose, of the first outlstanding French historians -- Villardhouin and Joinville.

"In this period great universities were organized in Paris, Orleans, Angers, Toulouse and Montpellier.

"It began with Roscelin and Abelard and culminated in the zenith of the scholastic philosophy.

"It was the age of the Gothic ecstasy -- of the majestic cathedrals of St. Denis, Chartres, Notre Dame, Amiens, and the Reims, and of Gothic sculpture in its most spiritual perfection.

"Frenchmen were forgivably proud of their country, their capital and their culture. A national unifying patriotism was replacing the provincialism of the feudal era.

"Already, as in the Chanson de Roland, men spoke lovingly of la douce France, 'sweet France!' It was in France, as in Italy, the climax of Christian civilization."

Robby

Malryn
February 8, 2006 - 06:11 am

The Song of Roland


Another translation

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 8, 2006 - 06:55 am
And here it is in Old French: LA CHANSON DE ROLAND a far cry from the French of today.

Bubble
February 8, 2006 - 07:35 am
Eloise, wasn't the first fable about the fox from this time in history? Renard, le Goupil? I can't seem to remember these days...

MeriJo
February 8, 2006 - 12:04 pm
The civilization of the Middle Ages was based on a great principle, an essentially liberal principle, from which arose the political liberty of England; according to that principle, taxes before being raised by royal authority, ought to be approved by the tax-payers. Boniface VIII in the conflict of 1302 was only maintaining this principle, when he insisted on the consent of the clergy to the collection of the tithes. In the struggle between Philip and Boniface, Philip represents absolutism, Boniface the old medieval ideas of autonomy. "The reign of Philip IV," writes Renan, "is the reign which contributed most to form the France of the five succeeding centuries, with its good and bad qualities. The milites regis, those ennobled plebeians, became the agents of all important political business; the princes of the royal blood alone remained superior to or on an equality with them; the real nobility, which elsewhere established the parliamentary governments, was excluded from participating in the public policy."

kiwi lady
February 8, 2006 - 06:43 pm
From what I have seen in recent years the British are real party animals they are different from the British I knew that emigrated here when I was a child. My DIL is British and she enjoys a very lively social life.

carolyn

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2006 - 07:41 pm
Spain

1096-1285

robert b. iadeluca
February 8, 2006 - 07:48 pm
"The Christian reconquest of Spain proceeded as rapidly as the fraternal chaos of the Spanish kings would permit.

"The popes gave the name and privileges of crusaders to Christians who would help drive back the Moors in Spain. Some Templars came from France to help the cause.

"Three Spanish military religious orders -- the Knights of Calatrava, of Santiago, of Alcantara -- were formed in the twelfth century.

"In 1118 Alfonso I of Aragon captured Saragossa.

"In 1195 the Christians were defeated at Alarcos.

"In 1212 they almost wiped out the main Almohad army at Las Navas de Tolosa. The victory was decisive.

"Moorish resistance broke down and one by one the Moslem citadels fell -- Cordova (1236), Valencia (1238), Seville (1248), Cadiz (1250).

"Thereafter the reconquista halted for two centuries to allow time for the wars of the kings."

Robby

Sunknow
February 10, 2006 - 01:29 am
I don't know how many times I have looked in to see what everyone is saying.....and not a word? Where ARE YOU?

I have a nerve complaining...since I'm only a 'lurker' ninety percent of the time. But I do wish you'd come back. It's like being suspended in time....

Sun

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 10, 2006 - 02:06 am
Bubble, I am sure you remember in "Les Fables de la Lafontaine", Le corbeau (goupil) et le renard. written in the late 1600's by Jean de la Fontaine. The word 'goupil' seems to be more in use in Belgium and I have seldom heard a 'corbeau' named 'goupil' and had to look it up.

Perhaps La Chanson de Roland came before that but I wonder why there is so much difference in the French language between those two poems as 'Les fables de Lafontaine' are written in a contemporary language where the language in La Chanson de Roland is no longer in use. Language mutation is a constant as is everything else I guess.

Bubble
February 10, 2006 - 02:19 am
Eloise, La Fontaine was inspired - I seem to remember- by a much earlier version written at the time still Old French was still used. It was the fox that was goupil, not the bird.

Bubble
February 10, 2006 - 02:24 am
Wars and religion, it never ends. The Moors influence is very present as in the best architecture of Spain.

Will Islam reconquer Europe anew?

robert b. iadeluca
February 10, 2006 - 05:37 am
"When Alfonso VIII of Castile was defeated at Alarcos the kings of Leon and Navarre, who had promised to go to his help, invaded his kingdom and Alfonso had to make peace with the infidels to protect himself against the infidelity of the Christians.

"Fernando III reunited Leon and Castile -- pushed the Catholic frontier to Granada -- made Seville his capital -- the great mosque his cathedral -- the Alcazar his residence.

"The Church considered him a bastard at his birth and made him a saint after his death.

"His son Alfonso X was an excellent scholar and an irresolute king.

"Attracted by the Moorish learning that he found in Seville, Alfonso el sabio, the Wise, braved the bigots by hiring Arab and Jewish, as well as Christian, scholars to translate Moslem works into Latin for the instruction of Europe.

"He established a school of astronomy, whose 'Alfonsine Tables' of heavenly bodies and movements became standard for Christian astronomers.

"He organized a corps of historians who wrote under his name a history of Spain and a vast and general history of the world.

"He composed some 450 poems, some in Castilian, some in Galician-Portuguese. Many were set to music and survive as one of the most substantial monuments of medieval song.

"His literary passion overflowed in books written or commissioned by him on draughts, chess, dice, stones, music, navigation, alchemy, and philosophy.

"Apparently he ordered a translation of the Bible to be made directly from the Hebrew into Castilian. With him the Castilian languge assumed the pre-eminence from which it has since ruled the literary life of Spain.

"He was in effect the founder of Spanish and Portuguese literature, of Spanish historiography, of Spanish scientific terminology.

"He tarnished a brilliant career by inriguing to secure the throne of the Holy Roman Empire.

"He spent much Spanish treasure in the attempt. He sought to replenish his coffers by raising taxes and debasing the coinage.

"He was deposed in favor of his son, survived his downfall by two years, and died a broken man."

What a man!

Robby

Malryn
February 10, 2006 - 04:54 pm

Alfonso X el Sabio

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2006 - 05:14 am
Portugal

robert b. iadeluca
February 12, 2006 - 05:22 am
"In the year 1095 Count Henry of Burgundy, a crusading knight in Spain, so pleased Alfonso VI of Castile and Leon that the King gave him a daughter, Theresa, in marriage and included in her dowry, as a fief, a county of Leon named Portugal.

"The territory had been won from Moslem Spain only thirty-one years before and south of the Mondego River the Moors still ruled.

"Count Henry felt uncomfortable as anything less than a king. From their marrige he and wife plotted to make their fief an independent state.

"When Henry died Theresa continued to labor for independence. She taught her nobles and vassals to think in terms of national liberty. She encourged her cities to fortify themselves and study the arts of war. She led her soldiers in person on campaign after campaign and between wars she surrounded herself with musicians, poets, and lovers.

"She was defeated, captured, released, and restored to her fief.

"She lavished funds upon an illicit love, was deposed, went into exile with her lover, and died in poverty."

Easy come. Easy go.

Robby

MeriJo
February 12, 2006 - 12:27 pm
Portugal appears to be an unforgiving land to improve. Nevertheless, it did continue to exist although at a much lower level of economy for its people.

The borders between Spain and Portugal fluctuated during the Middle Ages.

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2006 - 05:12 am
Pre-Renaissance Italy

1057-1308

robert b. iadeluca
February 13, 2006 - 05:29 am
Please note the GREEN quotes in the heading to see where we are going.

"It is remarkable to how many different enrironments, from Scotland to Sicily, the Normans adapted themselves -- with what violent energy they aroused sleeping regions and peoples -- and how completely, in a few centuries, they were absorbed by their subjects, and disappeared from history.

"For a turbulent century they ruled southern Italy as successors to the Byzantine power and Sicily as heirs to the Saracens.

"In 1060 Roger Guiscard, with a tiny band of buccaneers, began the invasion of the islands. By 1091 its conquest was complete.

"In 1095 Norman Italy accepted Roger as its ruler. When he died the 'two Sicilies' -- the island and southern Italy -- were already a power in the politics of Europe. Control of the Straits of Messian, and of the fifty miles between Sicily and Africa, gave the Normans a decisive commercial and military advantage.

"Amalfi, Salerno, and Palermo became the foci of an active trade with all Mediterranean ports including Moslem centers in Tunisia and Spain.

"Sicily, now a papal fief, replaced Mohammedan mosques with resplendent Christian churches and in Southern Italy Greek prelates gave way to Roman Catholic priests."

Your comments about Norman Italy?

Robby

Malryn
February 13, 2006 - 04:37 pm
AMALFI

CALABRIA and AMALFI

PALERMO

Justin
February 13, 2006 - 05:57 pm
It was a little difficult to cope with the idea of the Normands coming from southern Italy to particpate in the Crusades of 1095. They departed from Brindisi,their home port. When we dealt with that topic the origin of the Normands was confusing. It is now clear that they came in 1060 and called southern Italy home. This area of Italy has been home to so many peoples. It began, I think with the Greeks. Then came the Cartheginians and Saracens. We say,today, "that fellow,that person, is Italian-American. His parents came from Calabria. But that person's ancestry is not Italian. It is multinational.

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2006 - 03:35 am
The Papal States

robert b. iadeluca
February 14, 2006 - 03:38 am
"North of Norman Italy lay the city state of Benevento, ruled by dukes of Lombard origin. Beyond this were the lands under the immediate temporal power of the popes -- the 'Patrimony of Peter' -- including Agnani, Trivoli, Rome, and thence to Perugia."

Robby

Justin
February 14, 2006 - 02:51 pm
The evidence for the Papacy's temporal powers lies in the land bounded by Perugia and the Lombard lands on the South. However, monasteries and nunneries, church and cathedral precincts all over Europe gave the papacy a claim to land that far exceeded it's very limited home states. It was in an effort to hold the benefits of it's foreign land that the Great Investiture question became so central to peace in Europe. Foreign military challenge to the Papal States did not appear until Pope Julian in the sixtenth century donned the sword and led his army in the field.

MeriJo
February 14, 2006 - 05:12 pm
I think there is a disparity of a century or so between the end of lay investiture and Julian. The question is discussed here. (from U. of Calgary)

End of Middle Ages

Pope Julian and his Portrait by Raphael (from the Guardian)

http://www.mirabilis.ca/archives/000717.html

Justin
February 14, 2006 - 07:09 pm
What difference does it make How much time has elapsed? You've mixed apples and oranges. The Investiture question had to do with foreign land holdings and Julian was concerned with the Papal States. One is an apple and the other an Orange. I love you anyway. Keep punching.

robert b. iadeluca
February 15, 2006 - 04:29 am
"Rome was the center, but hardly the model, of Latin Christianity.

"No city in Christendom had less respect for religion, except as a vested interest. Italy took only a modest part in the Crusades. Venice shared in the Fourth only to capture Constantinople.

"The Italian cities thought of them chiefly as opportunities to establish poets, markets, and trade in the Near East.

"Frederick II postponed his crusade as long as he could and embarked upon it with a minimum of religious belief.

"There were religious souls in Rome, gentle spirits who aided pilgrimas to maintain the shrines. Their voices were seldom heard above the din of politics."

Throughout the four years that I have been DL for Story of Civilization, the speed with which I moved ahead in the text was always determined by the number of people participating and the number of postings after each text from Durant. Sometimes I have jumped rapidly ahead if the interest seems to flag. I will continue to follow that procedure.

Robby

Justin
February 15, 2006 - 03:22 pm
Durant is mistaken about the contribution to the crusades by Italy. Southern Italy was in with both feet and early. They were Normands and they were not motivated by religion but by plunder. However, Italy was not Italy until more recent times so it is hard to know exactly what Durant has in mind when he speaks of Italy in this period. We have the same problem with Germany as Traude has pointed out so well.If Italy means the land of the Lombards plus the Papal states at this time, then I agree with him. Italy's contribution to the Crusades was small. Strange isn't it. The fight was for their benefit, yet they chipped in very little. But that's typical of religions. They tend to be all mouth and not much substance.

Traude S
February 15, 2006 - 08:06 pm
JUSTIN, I concur with #857. What also makes me unhappy is the broad geographical "sweep" through the Italian peninsula. For example, Amalfi, Salerno and Palermo are mentioned in the same breath, which could lead to a mistaken impression.

First let me try to post a link to a map
http://www.historylink101.com/middle_ages_europe/middle_ages_maps.htm

Traude S
February 15, 2006 - 08:24 pm
It worked, thank goodness. (I know there is a shortcut that renders "http" superfluous, but I am not hunting for it.)

Please be sure to go to the very beginning of the page that lists a number of maps. Scroll down and click on "Fourth and Later Crusades". The map shows the (albeit not very detailed) configuration of the Italian peninsula.

Salerno and Amalfi are located south of Naples in the Golf of Salerno in the Tyrrhenian Sea. Calabria, however, is the Italian region at the very tip of the Italian boot. The town closest to the Strait of Messsina, which separates the Italian main land from the island of Sicily, is Reggio Calabria. (There's another town named 'Reggio' in the region of Emilia, famous for its Parmiggiano reggiano.) And Palermo, Sicily's capital, is in the far west of the island.

It seems my link was too long and caused the text to meander beyond the right margin. My apology. I hope that can be corrected. Thank you.

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2006 - 05:58 am
Venice Triumphant

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2006 - 06:07 am
"North of Ferrara and the Po lay the district of Veneto, proud of the cities of Venice, Treviso, Padua, Vicenza, and Verona.

"It was in this period that Venice matured her power.

"Her alliance with Byzantium gave her entry to Aegean and Black Sea ports.

"At Constantinople, in the twelfth century, her nationals are said to have numbered over 100,000 and to have held a section of the city in terror by their insolence and their brawls. Suddenly the Greek Emperor Manuel, prodded by the jealous Genose, turned against the Venetians in his capital, arrested a great number of them and ordered a wholesale confiscation of their goods.

"Venice declared war. Her people labored night and day to build a fleet and in 1171 the Doge Vitale Michieli II led 130 ships against Euboea as a first goal of strategy against the Straits. But on Euboea's shores his troops fell sick with a disease said to have been caused by Greeks poisoning the water supply. So many thousands died that the ships could not be manned for war.

"The Doge led his armada back to Venice where the plague infected and decimated the inhabitants. At a meeting of the assembly the Doge, blamed for these misfortunes, was stabbed to death.

"It is against the background of these events that we must view the Fourth Crusade and the oligarchic revolution that transformed the constitution of Venice."

Another class war?

Robby

MeriJo
February 16, 2006 - 11:53 am
Remember these peoples were sorting themselves out to develop a kind of civilization. This would be a civilization that differed from their predecessors. They were acquiring new viewpoints, new values, learning of new discoveries and other advances to form better ways of living. How slow is human behavioral development! How much culling of bad ways needed to take place! How much emphasis was needed to introduce positive ways! Civilization is on the move usually. It is not static. It does show all the work that is involved in growing. It is so often an exercise in trial and error - slow growth, but sure growth.

Justin
February 16, 2006 - 12:53 pm
Traude : your 858 gives us a wonderful collection of maps. The one depicting the Fourth Crusade is particularly effective in outlining the teritories of the various states on the Italian Peninsula. Clearly, the two Sicilys, are not Italian and the Lombards, well, they are what they are. Venezia, is too independent, and too Byzantine to be called Italian. The remaining Papal States one might think of as Italian but they could just as easily be called "Vaticanus". One must conclude that there is no Italy at this time. There is only an Italian Peninsula.

Scrawler
February 16, 2006 - 04:15 pm
Bio-warfare in 1170? By posioning the water supply I suppose you could bring defeat to many conquering armies.

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2006 - 04:39 pm
"The Doge led his armada back to Venice where the plague infected and decimated the inhabitants."

Depending on the type of poison, it is unlikely that the "plague" could have been brought back. Their sickness may not have been caused by poisoning.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 16, 2006 - 05:39 pm
"The great merchants, fearing the collapse of their commercial empire if such defeats continued, resolved to take the election of the doge, and the determination of public policy, from the general assembly and establish a more select council which should be better fitted to consider and transact affairs of state and might serve as a check upon both the passions of the people and the autocracy of the doge.

"The three highest judges of the Republic were persuaded to appoint a commission to draw up a new constitution. Its report recommended that each of the six wards of the city-state should choose two leading men, each of whom should choose forty able men.

"The 480 deputies so chosen were to form the Maggior Consiglio, or Greater Council, as the general legislature of the nation. The greater Council in turn was to choose sixty of its members as a Senate to govern commerce, finance, and foreign relations.

"The arrengo or popular assembly was to meet only to ratify or reject proposls of war of peace. A Privy Council of six men, elected severally from the six wards, was to govern the state in any interregnum and its sanction was to be required to legalize any governmental action of a doge.

"The first Greater Council elected by this procedure chose thirty-four of its members who chose eleven of their number who then, in public deliberation in the cathedral of San marco, chose the doge.

"A cry of protest arose from the people losing their right of naming the head of the state but the new doge diverted the disturbance by scattering coin among the crowd.

"In 1192, on the election of Enrico Dandolo, the Greater Council required th Doge to swear, in his coronation oath, to obey all the laws of the state.

"The mercantile oligarcy was now supreme."

Robby

Justin
February 16, 2006 - 07:49 pm
I thought it a flea on a rat that made the return trip with the Venetians that brought the Plague to Venice and Europe.

Justin
February 16, 2006 - 09:59 pm
The US oligarchy is more open. The energy business group chips in executive manpower, money, and policy advice and in return they get a fre hand in allocation and control of resources as well as consumer price. The game is still the same and the players have not changed. I wish I had more fully appreciated that characteristic of a civilized society while still in college. I'm sure I would have ended up with a bigger chunk of the plunder. I had silly ideals then. Ideals about making a contribution to society.

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2006 - 05:19 am
Any comments by anyone else regarding Post 866?

Robby

Malryn
February 17, 2006 - 06:29 am

Pay 'em off, Doge-y, and the people will forget they ever had any kind of democracy and say in the matter. Could that happen here?

Mal

Traude S
February 17, 2006 - 07:24 am
The comparison is compelling.

MeriJo
February 17, 2006 - 01:36 pm
The area wasn't that big and probably involved few people. The general population that heard about the doings of the Council were most likely grateful things were being done to maintain their ability to work. The Venetians were most interested in that and their freedom to just be.

It was a task to just keep afloat - no pun intended -

robert b. iadeluca
February 17, 2006 - 07:05 pm
"The triumphant oligarchy capped these external victories with another constitutional stroke.

"In 1297 the Doge Pietro Gradenigo pushed through the Council a proposal that only those citizens -- and their male posterity -- should be eligible to the Council who had sat in it since 1293.

"The great majority of the people were excluded from office by this 'Closing of the Council.' A closed caste was created. A Libro d'oro, or Golden Book, of marriages and births within this patrician caste was kept to ensure purity of blood and monopoly of power.

"The mercantile olibarchy decreed itself an aristocracy of birth.

"When the people planned a revolt against the new constitution their leaders were admitted into the hall of the Council and were immediately hanged.

"It must be admitted that this frank and ruthless oligarchy governed well. Public order was better maintained, public policy more shrewdly guided, laws more stable and effective, than in the other communities of medieval Italy.

"Venetian laws for the regulation of physicians and apothecaries preceded similar statutes of Florence by half a century. In 1301 laws forbade unhealthy industries in residential quarters and excluded from Venice industries that poured injurious fumes into the air.

"Navigation laws were rigorous and detailed. All imports and exports were subject to state supervision and control.

"Diplomatic reports covered trade more than politics and economic statistics were here for the first time made a part of government."

An incipient democracy with an emphasis on health?

Robby

Justin
February 17, 2006 - 07:33 pm
The modern world is only now beginning to curb air poluters. China has not yet found the way to do that and there is great industrial resistance to clean air in the US. Our present administration thinks clean air is for sissies. So they hung the opposition in Venezia. In the US we smear them with thier own successes. See Gore and his invention of the internet,John Mc Cain with his little black baby, and John Kerry with his three purple hearts.I also have no doubt that George the third of England would have hung Hancock, Adams, Franklin,Jefferson and allthe other signers of the Declaration had he captured them.

robert b. iadeluca
February 18, 2006 - 09:04 am
Any further comments by anyone about Post 873?

Robby

MeriJo
February 18, 2006 - 09:59 am
I found it interesting and not surprising that the Venetians emphasized health. This seems to be a tendency among Italians. As one of Italian descent, I grew up with admonitions and advice about good health. I became ill in Florence in 1975, and as I stayed in bed in the hotel waiting to recover, the parade of hotel workers that needed to come into the room each offered advice and suggestions about what I should be eating or drinking to get well, and the concierge had contacted a doctor as soon as my husband had called the front desk saying I needed a doctor. He came within minutes.

Justin
February 19, 2006 - 05:35 pm
Marco Polo and his travels fall in this period. I don't think he was one of those who was contained in the golden book. Had he been one of the aristocracy I doubt he would have resided in prison for his tales of Asia.

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2006 - 06:20 am
From Mantua to Genoa

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2006 - 06:27 am
"West of the Veneto the famous cities of Lombardy ruled the plains between the Po and the Alps -- Mantua, Cremona, Brescia, Bergamo, Como, Milan, Pavia. South of the Alps, in what is now Emilia, were Modena, Reggio, Parma, Piacenza.

"Lovers of Italy will not resent these sonorous litanies. Between Lombardy and France the province of Piedmont enclosed Vercelli and Turin. South of these Laguria bent around the gulf and city of Genoa.

"The wealth of the region was the gift of the Po which crossed the peninsula from west to east, carrying the commerce, filling the canals, watering the fields.

"The growth of industry and trade gave these cities the wealth and pride tht enabled them genrally to ignore their nominal sovereign, the German emperor, and to subdue the semifeudal lords of their hinterland."

Turin is now in the news.

Robby

Bubble
February 20, 2006 - 06:34 am
Those names evoke for me the only holidays as a teenager that I ever had with both my parents, a motoring tour from Provence in France to Switzerland. Torino, Milano, Alessadria, Parma, Reggio, Moduno, Domodossola...Roman ruins everywhere, signs of the past all around, one only had to look for them. Italy is beautiful!

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 20, 2006 - 11:41 am
Bubble, on my last trip to Menton, we went to Italy and drove up to the mountains in the most lovely picture postcard scenes I ever saw. Soon after leaving the seashore we could see the snow capped mountains, we drove to Cuneo village and had, what else, a dish of pasta with a divine sauce and a good Italian wine. I still have the taste in my mouth.

On this MAP OF PIEDMONT I noticed that Turin is further North in the Alps.

Italy is so lovely and at least I am glad I saw part of it because I don't think I will be able to go back there, but who knows.

MeriJo
February 20, 2006 - 01:38 pm
Piedmont - French for foot of the mountain

Piemonte - Italian for foot of the mountain.

Emily and Bubbles: I, too, have happy memories of visiting Italy. I felt at home there, because I heard my first language all around me.

On TV the Olympic coverage highlights the grand mountain scenery - wish I could be there. So grateful for TV.

Had a great dinner in Torino.

robert b. iadeluca
February 20, 2006 - 06:48 pm
"Usually a cathedral stood at the center of these Italian towns to brighten life with the drama of devotion and the spur of hope.

"Near it a baptistery to mark the entry of the child into the privileges and responsibilities of Christian citizenship and a campanile to sound the call to worship, assembly or arms.

"In the neighboring piazza or public square peasants and craftsmen offered their products -- actors, acrobats, and minstrels performed -- heralds cried their proclamations -- citizens chatted after Sunday mass and youths or knights engaged in sports or tournaments.

"A town hall, some shops, some houses or tenements helped to form a guard of brick around the square. From this center ran the crooked, winding, climbing streets, so narrow that when a cart or horseman passed, the pedestrians dodged into a doorway or flattened themselves against a wall.

"As the thirteenth century progressed and wealth grew, the stucco houses were roofed with red tiles, making a picturesque pattern for those who could forget the odors and the mud. Only a few streets and the central square were paved.

"Around the city ran a towered and battlemented wall for war was frequent and a man had to know how to fight if he cared to be other than a monk."

Robby

Bubble
February 21, 2006 - 01:04 am
No mention of the clotheslines running across the narrow streets from one house to the one opposite, and the washing drying there flapping in the wind like so many odd shaped flags... lol

Scrawler
February 21, 2006 - 03:49 pm
I guess we're getting closer to civilization - pedestrians are trying to get out of the traffic!

robert b. iadeluca
February 21, 2006 - 07:14 pm
Any other participants here with comments about Post 883?

Robby

Justin
February 21, 2006 - 07:48 pm
City life around the Cathedral was much the same as city life around the Temple in the days of Christ. The streets were narrow and the refuse flowed in the gutters. The money changers glutted the paths and the merchants pushed up against the walls within the precincts. Once per week a farmer's market added to the sounds of town life.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 22, 2006 - 02:34 am
Apparently there are more than a dozen major Italian cathedrals and HERE are plans of some of them built between the first and third centuries.

Malryn
February 22, 2006 - 07:05 am

When I think of this time in history, I think of Brughel, the Elder.

A Brueghel painting

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 22, 2006 - 07:21 am
Mal, very nice Brueghel, thank you.

When I visited St. Peter's Basilica in Rome I couldn't see the exquisite details that we can see HERE for instance. It would take binoculars to see the underside of the dome and the angels painted or sculptured there. Even an hour or two is now enough, you have to spend a day there and even then, that's not enough.

Justin
February 22, 2006 - 02:55 pm
The erotic elements of Pieter Brueghel stand out well in this painting. The apparent joys of a summer dance are clearly the beginning of the dance of life. His paintings are 16th century but his peasants are for all time. Thank you, Mal.

robert b. iadeluca
February 22, 2006 - 06:52 pm
"The greatest of these cities were Genoa and Milan.

"Genoa -- la superba, its lovers called it -- was perfectly placed for business and pleasure, rising on a hill before a sea that invited commerce and sharing in the warm climate of a Riviera that reached out to Rapallo on the east and San Remo on the west.

"Already a busy port in Roman days, Genoa developed a population of merchants, manufcturers, bankers, shipwrights, sailors, solders, and politicians.

"Genoese engineers brough in clear water from the Ligurian Alps by an aquedoct worthy of ancient Rome and raised a gigantic mole out in the bay to give her green harbor security in storm and war.

"Like the Venetians of this epoch, the Genoese cared little for letters or art. They spent themselves in conquering competitors and employing new avenues for gain.

"The Bank of Genoa was almost the state. It lent money to the city on condition of collecting the municipal revenue. Through this power it dominated the government and every party that came into office had to pledge loyalty to the Bank.

"But the Genoese were as brave as they were acquisitive. They cooperated with Pisa to sweep the Saracens from the Western Meditrranean and then fought Pisa intermittently until they shattered their rival's power in the naval battle of Meloria.

"For that last conflict Pisa called all men between the ages of twenty and sixty -- Genoa all between eighteen and seventy. We may judge from this the spirit and passion of the age. In that engagement off the coast of Corsica the men fought hand to hand until half the combatants were dead.

"Learning of this disaster to Pisa, the good men of Lucca and Florence thought it an excellent time to send an expedition against that unfortunate city but Pope Martin IV commanded them to stay their hands.

"Meanwhile the Genoese pushed into the East and came into competition with the Venetians and between these two rose the bitterest hatred of all.

"In 1255 they contested the possession of Acre. The Hospitalers fought on the side of Genoa, the Templars for Venice. In that battle alone 20,000 men fell. It destroyed Christian unity in Syria and perhaps decided the failure of the Crusades.

"The struggle between Genoa and Venice continued until 1379 when the Genoese sufferd at Chioggia the same culminatng defeat that they had inflicted upon the Pisans a century before."

Any comments about this section?

Robby

Traude S
February 22, 2006 - 07:55 pm
A linguistic comment: Genua is Genova in Italian. The inhabitants are Genovesi (pl), Genovese (sing).

Bologna has the oldest university in Italy and is called "la dotta" = the wise one;
Venice (Venezia) is known as "la serenissima";
and Rome of course is "la città eterna" = the eternal city.


Livorno, a port on the Ligurian coast, was dubbed "Leghorn" by Americans in WW II.

Justin
February 22, 2006 - 10:17 pm
and Traude, don't forget "Wipers' and "Reams.".My goodness, we English speakers did butcher Italian and French. I remember one funny night when my wife thought we must have passed Padua because the road sign read "Padova" 5 km. That was a night I kept my mouth shut.

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2006 - 05:24 am
Any further comments about Post 892?

Robby

MeriJo
February 23, 2006 - 02:11 pm
robby: I think your #892 excerpt of Durant's carries us through that period of history well.

As I remember northern and north central Italy is quite hilly and mountainous. It would have lent efforts toward increasing mercantile trade over agricultural trade - It did lend to these cities a great amount of contact with the outside world. This contact introduced an inclination toward improving the way of life in the North. It has succeeded while the South of Italy had completely different outside influence - more autocratic rule than commercial novelty.

Justin
February 23, 2006 - 03:43 pm
That's a well made point, Mrijo. The Genovesi engaged in commerce in much the same way that Venezia engaged. The Ventians exploited the Adriatic while the Genovesi addressed the Med. It was commerce that drove those two cities and surrounding areas to prosperity. In contrast, the port cities of the south, Brindisi on the Adriatic and Naples on the Med did less well largely due to autocratic rule. These people were farmers rather then shippers of goods. In the North it was the Ludovisi family in Milan that ruled but the Duke encouraged commerce and exploration for new markets.

Justin
February 23, 2006 - 04:27 pm
Durant says," The Popes dreamed of a theocracy in which the Word of God, interpreted by the Church, would suffice as law; They found themselves crushed amid the autocracy of the emperors, the oligarchy of the nobles and the democracy of the citizens." It was probably this combination of forces that drove the Papacy from Rome.

In this "modern" world, the popular religions meet in convention represented by thousands of delegates who fervently pray for the same dream but interpreted by their own brand of religion.Today, they have more power than they usually have because they have a friend at court. However, it is our business oligarchy that really calls the shots and will continue to call the shots,regardless of outcomes between the secular and the religious.

robert b. iadeluca
February 23, 2006 - 05:38 pm
"Of the Lombard cities Milan was the richest and most powerful.

"Once a Roman capital, she was proud of her age and her traditions. The consuls of her republic defied the emperors, her bishops defied the popes, her people shared or sheltered heresies that challenged Christianity itself.

"In the thirteenth century she had 200,000 inhabitants, 13,000 houses, 1000 taverns. Herself loving liberty, she did not willingly concede it to others. She patrolled the roads with her troops to force caravans, withersoever bound, to go to Milan first.

"She ruined Como and Lodi and struggled to subjugate Pisa, Cremona, and Pavia. She could not rest until she controlled all the commerce of the Po.

"At the Diet of Constance in 1154 two citizens of Lodi appeared before Frederick Barbarossa and implored his protection for their town. The emperor warned Milan to desist from her attempts upon Lodi. His message was rejected with scorn and trampled under foot.

"Frederick, eager to subdue Lombardy to imperial obedience, seized the opportunity to destroy Milan. Five years later her survivors and friends had rebuilt the city and all Lombardy rejoiced in her resurrection as a symbol of Italy's resolve never to be ruled by a German king.

"Frederick yielded. But before he died he married son Henry VI to Constance, daughter of Roger II of Sicily.

"In Henry's son the Lombard League would find a more terrible Frederick."

Robby

Justin
February 23, 2006 - 06:16 pm
AHNOLD of Brescia is not one we can easily ignore. He was a monk who who earned Bernard's praise as an ascetic. He denied the validity of sacraments administered by sinful clerics and denied any property rights. He advised the Church to surender all her matrial possessions and political power to the state. He called upon Romans to reject clerical rule and to restore the Roman Republic. He and his followers seized St Peters and turned it into a castle, took possession of the Vatican and taxed pilgrims. The Commune ruled Rome for ten years. Ahrmold was eventually hung by the Papal prefect and his ashes strewn in the Tiber. Ahrnold's ideas lived on in the Paterine, the Waldensians, the Lombardy heretics, and the Albigensians.

MeriJo
February 24, 2006 - 05:14 pm
Justin:

I tried to verify your last post and came up with Arnold Schwarzenegger and his wife, Maria. Ahnold of Brescia is someone, undetermined, but seems to be in a rock band. Ahnold doesn't sound like a Germanic name in that form. Please, would you give us a source for this information. His being in the Vatican for ten years is quite a claim. Brescia is in Lombardy, I think.

Justin
February 24, 2006 - 06:43 pm
Arnold of Brescia studied under Abelard in France and returned to Brescia as a monk.In 1146 Eugenious lll fled to Viterbo and Pisa. In 1148 he returned but confined his activities to spiritual functions. In 1155 Hadrian persuaded Barbarosa to capture Arnold. He did so and turned him over to the papal prefect who hung him, burned the corpse, and distributed his ashes in the Tiber. .

Note: See page 707 in Durant See also Durant's source: Cath. Encyclo. I,749a

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2006 - 06:55 pm
I am pleased that Justin and Merijo are posting but is anyone else here?

Robby

Traude S
February 24, 2006 - 07:46 pm
I'm here. What are we to react to? Andrea Doria perhaps? and no, not the ship.

robert b. iadeluca
February 24, 2006 - 07:53 pm
It always makes a Discussion Leader happy to know that a significant number of participants are present.

Robby

Bubble
February 25, 2006 - 01:12 am
Here, without comment at present. I need30H days

kidsal
February 25, 2006 - 02:00 am
I am here - lurk!!

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 25, 2006 - 05:19 am
Who hasn't heard of FREDERICK II - BARBAROSSA

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 05:25 am
The Excommunicate Crusader

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 05:42 am
"Constance was thirty when she married Henry, forty-two when she gave birth to her only child.

"Fearing doubts of her pregnancy and of her child's legitimacy, she had a tent erected in the market place of Iesi (near Ancona), and there, in the sight of all, she was delivered of the boy who was to become the most fascinating figure of the culminating medieval century

"In his veins the blood of the Norman kings of Italy merged with the blood of the Hohenstaufen emperors of germany.

"He was four when, at Palermo, he was crowned King of Sicily.

"His father had died a year earlier, his mother died a year afterward. Her will besought Pope Innocent III to undertake the guardianship, education, and political protection of her son, and offered him in return a handsome stipend, and the regency and renewed suzerainty of Sicily.

"He accepted gladly and used his position to end that union of Sicily with Germany which Frederick's father had just achieved. The popes reasonably dreaded an empire that should encompass the Papal States on every side and in effect imprison and dominate the papacy.

"Innocent provided for Frederick's education but supported Otto IV for the German throne. Frederick grew up in neglect, sometimes in poverty, so that compassionate citizens of Palermo had on occasion to bring the royal gamin food. He was allowed to run free in the stteets and markets of the polyglot capital and to pick his associates wherever he pleased.

"He received no systematic education but his avid mind learned from all that he heard or saw. The world would later marvel at the scope and detail of his knowledge. In those days and ways he acquired Arbic and Greek and some of the lore of the Jews.

"He grew familiar with different peoples, garbs, customs, and faiths, and never quite lost his youthful habit of tolerance. He read many volumes of history. He became a good rider and fencer and a lover of horses and hunting. He was short but strong , with 'a fair and gracious countenance.' and long, red, curly hair -- clever, positive, and proud.

"At twelve he dismissed Innocent's deputy regent and took over the government -- at fourteen he came of age -- at fifteen he married Constance of Aragon, and set out to reclaim the imperial crown."

That just shows the power of that school known as "the streets." My father used to tell me about the value of "the school of hard knocks."

Robby

Rich7
February 25, 2006 - 08:58 am
Robby, I'm here. They used to tell me as a kid:- When you have nothing to say, say it...nothing, that is.

Rich

Adrbri
February 25, 2006 - 10:15 am
and I come every day to read what you all have to say. I am learning and "listening" but I don't post unless I think I have something useful to say.

Brian.

moxiect
February 25, 2006 - 10:40 am


Hi Robbie,

I'm still here learning. Others have said what I would say in a much better way!

Scrawler
February 25, 2006 - 11:32 am
Considering what "formal" education was like at this time I don't wonder that the young king learned more from the streets. It makes you wonder how much one really learns from "formal" education as opposed to learning from what I would call the "real" world. I think you need both to really understand the world around you.

Adrbri
February 25, 2006 - 12:50 pm
"Those who can - do, those who can't - teach", this aphorism has a modicum of truth.

The most effective way to learn is to DO what you have been taught. It's not in the actual teaching, although that's obviously important, it's in the DOING by the student.

This is particularly important in computer learning. How often have you saught help, and become even more confused when the guru takes over your chair and whizzes through the problem? It takes a great teacher to stand by patiently while you plod slowly through trying to follow his or her advice.

The expression - "talking you through a problem" - has merit. Once completed, it gives great satisfaction to both the student, who feels that he has solved his own problem, and to the guru who can smile quietly to himself or herself.

Brian.

P.S. Robby I have subscribed to this discussion, but each time I go to post I am asked to login and have to insert my ID and password. Other discussion groups, that I have subscribed to, show me as being logged in under my ID without this palaver.

MeriJo
February 25, 2006 - 01:11 pm
Thank you, Justin. I'll check out your reference.

What a wonderful place to become "street wise." Just Palermo with its considerable population of scholars - one of the earliest universities was there. Just the fact that Sicily was an island and had ports through which many people entered, and from whom Frederic could hear different languages. There is more, of course, but then I would have a lengthy post.

However, I have always appreciated the fact that as a girl I was allowed the freedom to explore my town, go to L. A. by myself, drive there and do errands for my father's business in the wholesale area of the city. There was never any concern in those days of becoming a victim of crime or mayhem. That was a freedom that very few youngsters have today - especially those that have been programmed by their parents for each moment of the day.

There was a book - a slim volume - by Robert Paul Smith that was published years ago. "Where Did You Go?" "Out" What Did You Do?" "Nothing"

But, oh! One learns so much just from osmosis or observation.

Adrbri
February 25, 2006 - 01:41 pm
A good history of Chioggia is here -

http://www.lamargherita.it/chioggia1.htm

Brian

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 25, 2006 - 02:05 pm
Adrbri, did you try this "Subscribe to this discussion by email" that you find right below the message box?

Good link on Genoa and Venice, thanks

MeriJo, I agree that youngsters today are programmed, but look at the alternative, street gangs, drugs, violence. I have a good example with 2 of my grandchildren, they are busy every minute of the day and evening but I assure you that it has its good side too especially when they are still in their teens and the parents monitor their activities closely. If it was as good as when we were young, they wouldn't need to be so rigidly programmed I think.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 02:34 pm
Brian:-If you continue to have those problems, contact Marcie, Director of Education.

Robby

Justin
February 25, 2006 - 05:00 pm
The power of the streets, my foot. What it shows is the intransigence, dishonesty, and single minded selfishness of the Papacy. Innocent takes Constance's money but fails to deliver on it's promise to educate the boy and to ensure his royal power in Germany and the two Sicily's. Not only did the Papacy fail to live up to the agreement but it worked against it's ward. Well, it's just one more example of an untrustworthy Papacy. Time and time again the papacy fails to do what it preaches. Adherents excuse this kind of behavior saying the papacy is human and men make errors in judgement. But when this kind of behavior persists people should recognize it for what it is. It is self-serving and wrong.

MeriJo
February 25, 2006 - 05:31 pm
Justin:

The following is from Durant, so which is it?

"Innocent provided for Frederick's education

"He received no systematic education

MeriJo
February 25, 2006 - 05:34 pm
Eloise:

Yes, I know. I wouldn't let my children do today what I allowed them to do when the town was smaller.

My grandchildren had a regulated childhood with all sorts of sports and music activities. I still prefer the freedom I had and I was able to give my children. It's just not the same old world.

Justin
February 25, 2006 - 06:05 pm
There is no question, he short changed the boy.

robert b. iadeluca
February 25, 2006 - 06:11 pm
But this "short-changed boy" turned out to be "the most fascinating figure of the culminating medieval century."

Robby

Justin
February 25, 2006 - 06:43 pm
Indeed.

The guy goes on a Crusade to Palestine for papacy while excommunicated and all the while the grateful Pontiff is seeking to depose him. Treachery pure and simple. Then gregory sends an army to invade Sicily while his henchmen, some monks, spread a rumor of his death. Then Gregory sends two Franciscans with a message to Christians in the holy land not to obey the excommunicate. He had to crown himself, King of Jerusalem, since no clergy would do it for him. That did not happen again until Napoleon crowned himself.

There is much irony in this. The popes had been trying for years to provide safe passsage for pilgrims to Jerusalem. The nobles of Southern Italy secure the city for them and hold it for many years till Saladin takes it back. Frederick, then gets it back for the papacy and the pope stabs him in the back by sending an army to invade Sicily while Frederick is engaged elsewhere in the papal interest.

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 25, 2006 - 07:54 pm
Justin, it's so funny the way you describe history, it's like a cartoon, it breaks me up.

Traude S
February 25, 2006 - 08:16 pm
The "two Sicilies" had a long, involved history up until the unification of Italy. That history includes a brief stint by Joseph Bonaparte, elder brother of Napoleon, as King of Naples, subsequently King of Spain. (Napoleon and nepotism were synonymous.)

On the subject of education I believe it is not only appropriate but necessary to mention Dr. Maria Montessori (1870-1952), whose theories are still being applied worldwide with undiminished success.
The first woman physician in Italy, she came to champion early exposure to languages, music, art, as well as learning by doing in an unstructured, grade-less environment. I still remember my 4 year-old son effortlessly handling binomial and then trinomial cubes (math was always easy for him). I saw first-hand how the children prospered in that environment because, at the suggestion of the school's principal, I taught French and - later - German in that school in northern Virginia, with flash cards and total mmersion. I was committed and did it gratuitously.

Justin
February 26, 2006 - 12:59 am
Thank you, Eloise. History is a complex process and if one can cut to the heart of an issue and simplify it's expression I think one has done well. Cartoons have that character.However, at the moment, cartoons are not in fashion. They seem to promote riots.

Bubble
February 26, 2006 - 01:37 am
Yes Eloise, I was put in Montessori kindergarden classes and I am sure I owe my actual general interest and curiosity to that early start to music, art and crafts. Bubble

Justin, no riots here, please! Who could have predicted 20 years ago that cartoons could/would provoke such riots. Much worse than these were printed in the Arabic schoolbooks used in the West Bank and surrounding countries not too long ago... Then noone expected them to cause riots.

Barbarossa must have had an inner strength, an innate sense of decency.

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2006 - 05:41 am
"Fortune favored Frederick - for a price.

"Otto IV had violated his agreement to respect the sovereignty of the Pope in the Papal States. Innocent excommunicated him and ordered the barons and bishops of the Empire to elect as Emperor his young ward Frederick 'as old in wisdom as he is young in years.'

"But Innocent, so suddenly turning toward Frederick, did not veer from his purpose of protecting the papacy. As the price of his support he required from Frederick a pledge to continue tribute and fealty from Sicily to the popes, to guard the inviolability of the Papal States, to keep the 'Two Sicilies' -- Norman southern Italy and the island -- perpetually separated from the Empire, to reside in Germany as Emperor and leave the Sicilies to his infant don Henry as King of Sicily under a regent to be appointed by Innocent.

"Furthermore, Frederick bound himself to maintain all the powers of the clergy in his realm, to punish hereties, and to take the cross as a crusader.

"Financing his trip and retinue with money provided by the Pope, Frederick entered a Germany still held by Otto's armies. But Otto was defeated by Philip Augustus at Bouvines, his resistance collapsed, and Frederick was crowned emperor in a splended ceremony at Aachen. There he solemnly renewed his pledge to undeertake a crusade. In the full enthusiasm of triumphant youth, he won many princes to make the same vow.

"For a moment he seemed to Germany a God-sent David who would free David's Jerusalem from the heirs of Saladin."

The Pope publicly called Frederick "old in wisdom" but the Pope seemed even wiser.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2006 - 06:46 am
In the Heading above we ask "What are our origins?" Over four years ago this group began by discussing primeval man. Participants may find this ARTICLE of interest.

Robby

Justin
February 26, 2006 - 02:19 pm
Some may see the Pope as wiser than Frederick but I see the Pope as less trustworthy than Frederick. Frederick lived up to his promise to retake Jerusalem while the Pope undermined his efforts and attacked his lands while he was engaged on the Pope's errands.Some people would see that as dishonest and traitorous.

The tendency to give the Pope a free pass because his heart is in the right place is nonsense. These guys have caused more trouble in the world than the evil implementers who do their work.

Today civilization is again under attack because Ayatollahs in their blind ignorance are leading an uneducated,unemployable, deprived, people to violence. These people need something to focus on other than religion. They need modernity which they resist like the plague because their clerics tell them modernity is the devil.

It should not be difficult to recognize the similarities between 12th century Europe and the 21st century Middle east.

robert b. iadeluca
February 26, 2006 - 03:52 pm
I wasn't implying that wisdom is necessarily used in a positive manner.

Robby

Justin
February 26, 2006 - 06:04 pm
OK. So I must have inferred without an implication. I saw the papal action as cunning. Perhaps,that equates with wisdom at some level. We have seen time and time again religious authority acting like the evil Mr. Hyde and no one but me seeing the evil in the process.Most seem all too ready to give the evil doer a free pass. If we do not focus on what's wrong with our society we will never climb over the wall to the elysian fields that lie just beyond our grasp.

mabel1015j
February 26, 2006 - 11:32 pm
This is a little late, but I've been busy this week-end and just read about Constance giving birth in the marketplace - - - well, well, what we women haven't done to prop up those male egos and their patriarchy.....jean

3kings
February 27, 2006 - 01:00 am
Justin said :-It should not be difficult to recognize the similarities between 12th century Europe and the 21st century Middle east.

Gee, Justin. I find it hard to damn the present day Mohammedans for being equivalent to the old 12 Century Europeans. I've seen plenty of evidence of present day Christians behaving like their 12 century forebears, too.

There are two Mohammedan families living in my area. One is Iraqi, the other Bosnian. If they had not told us their background, I would never have guessed. Look behind the cosmetic covering, and one finds that we are all Human beings. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2006 - 05:38 am
"Delays ensued.

"Otto's brother Henry raised an army to depose Frederick and the new Pope, Honorius III, agreed that the young Emperor must defend his throne. Frederick overcame Henry but meanwhile he became involved in imperial politics.

"Apparently he already longed for his native Italy. The heat and blood of the South were in his temperament and Germany irked him. Of his fifty six years only eight were spent there.

"He granted large feudal powers to the barons, gave charters of self government to several cities and entrusted the government of Germany to Archbishop Engelbert of Cologne and Herman of Salza, the able Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights.

"Despite Frederick's apparent negligence, Germany enjoyed prosperity and peace during the thirty five yers of his reign. The barons and bishops were so satisfied with their absentee landlord that to please him, they crowned his seven year old son Henry 'King of the Romans' -- heir to the imperial throne.

"At the same time Frederick appointed himself regent of Sicily for Henry who remained in Germany. This rather inverted the plans of Innocent but Innocent was dead. Honorius yielded and even crowned Frederick emperor at Rome for he ws anxious tht Frederick should embark at once to rescue the Crusaders in Egypt.

However, the barons in South Italy and Saracens in Sicily staged a revolt. Frederick argued that he must restore order in his Italian realm before venturing on a long absence.

"Meanwhile his wife died. Hoping to prod him to fulfill his vow, Honorius persuaded him to marry Isabella, heiuress to the lost kingdom of Jerusalem. Frederick complied and added the title of King of Jerusalem to those of King of Sicily and Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.

"Trouble with the Lombard cities again delayed him. In 1227 Honorius died and the stern Gregory IX ascended the papal throne. Frederick now prepared in earnest, built a great fleet, and gathered 40,000 crusaders at Brindisi. There a terrible plague broke out in his army. Thousands died, more thousands deserted. The emperor himself and his chief lieutenant, Louis of Thuringis, caught the infection.

"Nevertheless Frederick gave the order to sail. Louis died and Frederick grew worse. His doctors and the higher clergy who were with him, advised him to return to Italy.

"He did and sought a cure at Pozzuoli. Pope Gregory, his ptience exhausted, refused to hear the explanations of Frederick's emissaries and anounced to the world the excommunication of the Emperor."

WOW! Lots of goings on here and lots of crowns to go around -- not to mention the papal-emperor ongoing dispute.

Your comments, please?

Robby

Scrawler
February 27, 2006 - 10:52 am
Doesn't it seem like history is repeating itself over and over again. So why does it happen that way. You'd almost think that as we get closer to being more civilized we would stop this trend, but it doesn't happen like that. 12th century reflects into our own time. But why?

Justin
February 27, 2006 - 02:32 pm
Trevor: It is a pleasure to hear from you again. I couldn't agree more with your assessment of some Christians. Many act as though they were living in the 12th century.

Muslims in the Middle East,on the other hand, following the Qu'ran and their Iman's direction reject modernity as the work of the devil and enthusiastically exhibit a willingness to fight the infidel (your Christian buddies). The few Muslims you have met have escaped from the prevailing influences in the Middle East and have found some of the benefits of modernity in New Zealand. But not all escapees recognize the benefits of modernity. Many Muslims living in Paris have not yet seen the light. The second generation will do better.

I wonder if being human is not part of the problem. There are times in life when each of us feels a little inadequate to the task of living and it is at such times when we are most vulnerable to guidance from those who,at the same moment,are feeling their oats.

Justin
February 27, 2006 - 03:09 pm
That's a good question, Scrawler.

We've been looking at the evidence since the Sumerians in 3000 BCE. In every group some physically,strong guy with more smarts than his fellows has taken over as king of the hill and he has found ways to stay on top. One of the methods the king has employed is that of enticing strong but less smart guys to think their position on the hill is dependent on the good will of the king. Two functionaries are needed here- One is a soldier the other a priest. The soldier protects the king's body.The priest diverts the attention of the great mass of the people though fear and superstition. We have seen this process at work again and again.

With the coming of democracy another method of diversion has been added to the king's tool box. The king is elected. He proposes himself for office. Uses the tools of the priest to convince the mass of people he is the man for the job and becomes,once again the King of the Hill.

Justin
February 27, 2006 - 03:35 pm
I see a similarity between Gregory and Lincoln. Gregory thought he had a general in Frederick capable of rescuing the crusaders in Jerusalem. He tried every way he could to get him launched on the project. But everything else came in the way.

Lincoln thought he had a general in McClellan who would fight the rebellious confederates who were threatning Washington. Mc Clellan had everything else to do before he would attack. Lincoln finally had to dismiss him as Gregory excommunicatd Frederick.

History repeats.

MeriJo
February 27, 2006 - 05:27 pm
Justin:

Seems to me I heard that there are only seven plots upon which to build a story. Maybe that's why history repeats itself - only seven ways to go.

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2006 - 06:35 pm
"Seven months later, still excommunicated, Frederick set sail for Palestine.

"On learning of his arrival in Syria, Gregory absolved the subjects of Frederick and his son Henry from their oaths of allegiance and began negotiations to depose the Emperor.

"Taking these actions as a declaration of war, Frederick's regent in Italy invaded the Papal States. Gregory retaliated by sending an army to invade Sicily.

"Monks spread a rumor tht Frederick was dead. Soon a large part of Sicily and southern Italy were in papal hands. Two Franciscan delegates of the Pope reached Acre soon after Frederick and forbade any man in the Christian ranks to obey the excommunicate.

"The Saracen commander al-Kamil, astonished to find a European ruler who understood Arabic and appreciated Arabic literature, science, and philosophy, made a farorable peace with Frederick who now entered Jerusalem as a bloodless conqueror.

"As no clergyman would crown him King of Jerusalem, he crowned himself in the church of the Holy Sepulcher. The bishop of Caesarea, calling the shrine and city desecratd by Frederick's presence, laid an intereict upon religious services in Jerusalem and Acre.

"Some Knights Templar, learning that Frederick planned to visit the reputed site of Christ's baptism in the Jordan, sent secret word to al-Kamil, suggesting that here was a chance for the Sultan to capture the Emperor. The Moslem commander sent the letter to Frederick.

"To free Jerusalem from its interect, the Emperor left it on the third day and went to Acre. There, as he walked to his ship, the Christian populace bombarded him with filth.

"Arrived at Brindisi, Frederick organized an impromptu army and advanced to recapture the towns that had yielded to the Pope. The papal army fled, the cities opened their gates. Only Sora resisted and stood siege. It was captured and reduced to ashes. At the frontier of the Papal States Frederick stopped and sent the Pope a plea for peace.

"The Pope agreed. The Treaty of San Germano was signed (1230). The excommnication was withdrawn.

"For a moment there was peace."

Excommunication -- laid down and withdrawn. And an Emperor whose knowledge started in the streets.

Robby

Éloïse De Pelteau
February 27, 2006 - 06:58 pm
THE CASTLES OF FREDERICK II IN SICILY

Castello Ursino - Catania
Castel Maniace - Syracuse
Castello di Lombardia - Enna

robert b. iadeluca
February 27, 2006 - 07:06 pm
A terrific link, Eloise!!

Robby

Adrbri
February 27, 2006 - 09:15 pm
On reading your link to the Sicilian Castles of Frederick II, I was interested to see, at the bottom of the page,the "three legs" logo which I had always associated with the Isle of Man.

The same Latin tag is associated with both logos. "Quocunque jeceris stabit" - "Whichever way you throw it, it will stand".

- - - - - -

http://www.isle-of-man.com/interests/three-legs/index.shtml

Brian

Justin
February 27, 2006 - 11:22 pm
Excellent link, Eloise. The castle at Syracusa resembles a modern battleship. The prow stands out to sea and at midships there is a gun turret and the fantail is low in the land. The place looks impregnable from land and sea.

Rich7
February 28, 2006 - 07:29 am
The German town of Fussen also uses the three legged symbol found in Sicily and the Isle of Man. -See the image in this link-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCssen

(Wish I knew how to bring images into my post like you do, Brian.)

It seems to be an ancient pagan image, and possibly even a precurser to the swastika.

Coincidentally, the town of Fussen is the village that you walk (or ride a horse cart) from to visit Neuschwanstein Castle. We have had occasions to discuss Neuschwanstein before.

Rich

Adrbri
February 28, 2006 - 12:52 pm
To post an image to SeniorNet, one needs to find the URL of the image, by right-clicking it and noting its properties. Copy this URL to your Clipboard :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/96/F%C3%BCssens_Wappen.gif/135px-F%C3%BCssens_Wappen.gif

and then add : <* img src=" in front, and : "> <*/a> at the end.
(Leave out the asterisks, which are there only to let you see the other directions !)



As I have done here.

You should use the SeniorNet Practice Area to try out how it will look in posting.
SN has limits to the sizeand number of images that can be posted.

Brian

Adrbri
February 28, 2006 - 01:02 pm
I find that just posting the image's URL on the SN webpage, is sufficient.
It is not necessary to put in the IMG SRC bit

Brian

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2006 - 07:17 pm
The Wonder of the World

robert b. iadeluca
February 28, 2006 - 07:21 pm
"Frederick turned to administration and from his court at Foggia, in Apulia, wrestled with the problems of too wide a realm.

"He visited Germany in 1231 and confirmed, in a 'Statute in Favor of Princes' the powers and privileges that he and his son had extended to the barons. He was willing to surrender Germany to feudalism if that would leave him at peace to develop his ideas in Italy. Perhaps he recognized that the battle of Bouvines had ended German hegemony in Europe and that the thirteenth century belonged to France and Italy.

"He paid for his neglect of Germany in the rebellion and suicide of his son."

Did the man's reach exceed his grasp?

Robby

mabel1015j
February 28, 2006 - 08:00 pm
That's one of those aerial views of a geographic area. Tonight I saw most of "the Rhine" and "Bavaria." I remember some of the castles and fortresses from your postings earlier in this discussion. Both of them were beautiful viewing. Hurray for PBS, no other network would give us three hours just for the beauty of it......tho't you might want to look for them in your areas.....jean

Justin
February 28, 2006 - 08:00 pm
Sure, Frederick's reach exceeded his grasp.We all do that, don't we? We reach well beyond ourselves in hope that the settlement will be adequate to meet life's needs.

Justin
February 28, 2006 - 08:03 pm
Jean: The aerial trips are delightful. I've seen one for Ireland and one for England. Thank's for the notice.

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2006 - 04:04 am
Anyone else with a comment about Post 952?

Robby

Rich7
March 1, 2006 - 08:54 am
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

Robert Browning

Rich

Justin
March 1, 2006 - 12:20 pm
"We may imagine the wrath of the Pope at the sight of Muslim warriors led by a Christian emperor against Papal troops." says Durant.

Gregory and his predecessor brought it on themselves by their treachery. Freddy is off fighting Greg's battles for him when Greg thinks it ok to attack Freddy's lands and prevent him from wearing the crown of Jerusalem.

Justin
March 1, 2006 - 06:28 pm
One nice thing Frederick accomplished was the secular government he built right next door to the See of Rome. I'm not sure however that lawyers made better administrators than clerics. Clerics made their own laws while lawyers interpreted the laws of others.

robert b. iadeluca
March 1, 2006 - 06:44 pm
Any further comments by any other participants?

Robby

Justin
March 1, 2006 - 10:57 pm
Frederick is active in the first quarter of the 13th century- a time when the church (Vatican etc) is given much credit for safe-keeping intellectual properties.I have in mind the translation and storage of classical material by the monks .

It is in this period Frederick builds a secular state in the Pope's backyard and establishes a secular university in Naples at which religious people are not allowed to participate.How different this is from the scolastic university at Paris.

At the same time Frederick understands the value of religion as a means of keeping order in the kingdom. The man is a giant. Yes, he allowed the Inquisition to proceed for he recognized that heresy would undermine the value of religion to the state.

This frederick is an outstanding figure. Politically he brought local control to the fore with local assemblies. He ended the idiocy of trial by ordeal which was a product of religion; God will protect the innocent. The Enlightenment began with Frederick four centuries before it actual maturity in Europe.

robert b. iadeluca
March 2, 2006 - 05:48 pm
Any other participants here?

Robby

Traude S
March 2, 2006 - 06:28 pm
Still here. We must be getting to Conradin soon, I believe ...

Malryn
March 2, 2006 - 08:00 pm

I'm here, too, and glad to say that cortisone and a pain medication have given me a new lease on life. Much more of this, and you won't be able to shut me up.

Mal

Justin
March 2, 2006 - 09:28 pm
Mal: Take as much as you need to feel well. We need you in here. Believe me, you are missed.

mabel1015j
March 2, 2006 - 09:48 pm
why do we not know/learn/hear more about him?......jean

Justin
March 2, 2006 - 11:35 pm
Jean: We are only half way through Frederick's life at this point and already we recognize his significance. I don't understand why I have not been fully aware of his importance before this moment. Perhaps, prior treatments of his role have been weakened for some reason. History tends to be a description of what others think is important and not necessarily what IS important.

I previously encountered Frederick as Barbarosa in an examination of the Crusades but I knew little about his role as German emperor and very little about his adventures with the Papacy and the two Sicilys. I was also unaware of the significance of his emphasis on secularism. Because he abandoned "Germany" to the Church he must have loomed large in Traude's education. Traude, do you know more about this guy than we know?

Justin
March 3, 2006 - 12:06 am
Durant describes Frederick as "The Man of the Renaissance".He equates him with Machiavelli's Prince, Neitzche's Bismark and Napoleon. He is before his time, this secular ruler of "Germany" and Italy ( Lombardy and the two Sicilys). He was a man who valued intellectual freedom-a man who replaced the Bible with the classics,faith with reason, God with nature,and Providence with Necessity.

In the end, unfortunately, he asked for absolution and donned the garb of a Cistercian monk. The power of superstition was too much for him.

Dan Griffith
March 3, 2006 - 01:50 am
For me its very surprising to have stumbled across this website, and discussion about Durant's epic history.

I read it all from the first page of the first volume to the last page of the last volume. Took me two and a half years. But that was over twenty years ago, and in all that time I've never met anybody who had read any of it, or even heard of it, and so, I've never discussed it with anybody.

And now having accidentally discovered all of you good folks, I'm speechless!

Dan

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2006 - 04:45 am
Dan:-You are most welcome here!! Some of the participants here have read "The Story of Civilization;" some have never read it before. None of us pretend to be experts. We are merely friends meeting regularly in our cyber living room and going paragraph by paragraph through the eleven volumes and giving our opinions whatever they may be.

Over the past four plus years we have gone over the first three volumes and are now on Page 717 of "The Age of Faith" under the section "The Wonder of the World." We ask those who have the book to resist the temptation to move ahead of the text I print so that we may all be at the same place in the book at the same time. In the Heading you will always find a section of quotes printed in Green. Assuming I am always on top of the picture (?), these quotes will tell you where we are.

We are looking forward to your thoughts and suggest that you come to visit us on a daily basis. We move fast! You can find out a bit about each other by clicking onto our names.

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 3, 2006 - 05:00 am
"Out of the polyglot passions of Sicily Frederick's despotic hand forged an order and prosperity recalling the brilliance of Roger II's reign.

"The rebellious Saracens of the hills were captured, were transported to Italy, were trained as mercenaries, and became the most reliable soldiers in Frederick's army. We may imagine the wrath of the popes at the sight of Moslem warriors led by a Christian emperor against papal troops.

"Palermo remained in law the capital of the Regno, as the Two Sicilies were briefly called, but the real capital was Foggia.

"Frederick loved Italy more ardently than most Italians. He marveled that Yahveh had made so much of Palestime when Italy existed. He called his southern kingdom the apple of his eye, 'a haven amidst the floods, a pleasure garden amidst a wilderness of thorns.'

"In 1223 he began to build at Foggio the rambling castle-palace of which only a gateway remains today. Soon a city of palaces rose about his own to house his aides. He invited the nobles of his Italian realm to serve as pages at his court. There they rose through widening functions to administer the government.

"Head of them all was Piero delle Vigne, a graduate of the school of law at Bologna. Frederick made him logothete or secretary of state and loved him as a brother or a son.

"At Foggia, as at Paris seventy years later, lawyers replaced the clergy in administration. Here, in the state nearest to the See of Peter, the secularization of government was complete."

An amazing man! Your comments please?

Robby

Scrawler
March 3, 2006 - 10:23 am
"The rebellious Saracens of hills were captured, were transported to Italy, trained as mercenaries, and became the most reliable soldiers in Fredrick's army..."

"In 1223 he began to build at Foggio the rambling castle-palace of which only a gateway remains today...He invited the nobles of his Italian realm to serve as pages at his court. There they rose through widening functions to administer the government..."

I think that Frederick was, indeed, a fascinating man, if only because he was able to work with people. He was able to make "reliable soldiers" out of rebels and gave the Italians an opportunity to administer the government - that to me shows him as a visionary.

Rich7
March 3, 2006 - 11:16 am
A recent posting by Justin, and the most current Durant posting refer to a place or position of papal power (alliteration unintended) called the "Holy See" or "See of Peter." I'm probably not alone in wondering exactly what the expression meant.

After Googling awhile, I came up with the fact that "Holy See" comes from the Latin "Sancta Sedes" or "Holy Seat."- The diocese of the Bishop of Rome.

Rich

Justin
March 3, 2006 - 01:20 pm
A "See" refers to the power center of a Bishop. It is expressed as a cathedra or bishop's seat in a cathedral. The Roman see, centered in the Bishopric of Rome, is often called the "Holy See" or the See of Rome. A see coincides with diocese therefore the diocese of New York may be referred to as the see of New York. Merijo, come in here and modify some of this before I say too much.

Justin
March 3, 2006 - 01:31 pm
Dan: I'm glad you found us. Sorry you are speechless. I hope you get over that malady quickly and join us here for our daily conversation.

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2006 - 07:58 am
"Reared in an age of chaos, and learned in Oriental ideas, Frederick never dreamed that the order called a state could be maintained except by monarchical force.

"He seems honestly to have believed that without a strong central power men would destroy, or repeatedly impoverish, themselves through crime, ignorance, and war. Like Barbarossa he valued social order more highly than popular liberty and felt that the ruler who competently maintains order earns all the luxuries of his keep.

"He allowed some measure of public representation in his government. Twice a year, at five points in the Regno, assemblies met to deal with local problems, complaints, and crimes. To these assemblies he summoned not only the nobles and prelates of the district but four deputies from each major city and two from each town.

"For the rest Frederick was an absolute monarch. He accepted as axiomatic the basic principle of Roman civil law -- that the citizens had handed over to the emperor the sole right to legislate.

"At Melfi in 1231 he issued for the Regno -- chiefly through the legal skill and counsel of Piero delle Vigne -- the Liber Augustalis, the first scientifically codified system of laws since Justinian and one of the most complete bodies of jurisprudence in legal history.

"It was in some ways a reactionary code. It accepted all the class distinctions of feudalism and maiantained old rights of the lord over the serf.

"In many ways it was a progressive code. It deprived the nobles of legislative, judicial, and minting powers, centering these in the state. It abolished trial by combat or ordeal. It provided for state prosecutors to pursue crimes tht heretofore had gone unpunished if no citizen brought in a complaint.

"It condemned the law's delays, advised judges to cut down the perorations of advocates and required the state courts to sit daily except on holidays."

National order and security over individual civil liberties?

Robby

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2006 - 08:05 am
Here is Frederick's STATUTE OF 1231.

Robby

Justin
March 4, 2006 - 01:26 pm
The battle between order and security and individual rights is a continuing one. Some gains were made by individuals in 1231. The statute insuring that plaintiff and acused would be heard in the same court favored the individual. Again, individuals made significant gains in 1789 but 2006 has been a down year for the individual and I fear she is for additional losses as the decade progresses.

MeriJo
March 4, 2006 - 01:39 pm
Welcome, Dan Griffith: There are nice people here. And all so interested in history! You will like this place.

Hello everyone: Had an interesting time this week. I had a nuclear stress test for my heart. It is painful and tiring, but I couldn't walk on the treadmill so I was nuclearly stressed. I got a kick out of telling my family I was radioactive! Lasted 24 hours.

The Holy See is as Rich 7 described it. It is the "seat of the Pope" representing the center of authority,so to speak, of the Catholic Church. It is derived from the Latin, "sedia", "chair" or literally a "throne". You are right, too, Justin. It applies to the bishop in the sense that he is the center of authority for a diocese.

What impresses me about Frederick and his time is all the activity that was going on in the world upon his orders. One gets the image that there are people bustling around here and there, building and studying and inventing with all sorts of social interaction. Sicily is known for festivity even today - good winemaking, fruit groves - oranges and olives - all this interacting among people and yet all the while there was fighting and intrigue and even disease. Certainly wasn't a complacent period of history.

I remember spending a good piece of time in school studying about Frederick Barbarossa, but it was so long ago that I would not have been able to place him in history without looking him up. He had a red beard which I knew, off hand.

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2006 - 05:37 pm
"Like most medieval rulers, Frederick carefully regulated the national economy.

"A 'just price' was established for various services and goods. The state nationalized the production of salt, iron, steel, hemp, tar, dyed fabrics, and silk. It operated textile factories with Saracen slave women workers and eunuch foremen.

"It owned and operated slaughter houses and public baths. It created model farms, fostered the cultivation of cotton and sugar cane, cleared woods and fields of injurious animals, built roads and bridges, and sank wells to augment the water supply.

"Foreign trade was largely managed by the state and was carried in vessels owned by the government. One of these had a crew of 300 men.

"Internal traffic tolls were reduced to a minimum but tariffs on exports and imports provided the chief revenues of the state. There were many other taxes, for this government, like all others, could always find uses for money.

"To Frederick's credit must be put a sound and conscientious currency."

I wonder if it ever entered Frederick's mind that his era would be called in later centuries the "Dark Ages."

Robby

3kings
March 4, 2006 - 06:24 pm
The Holy See. During the 1980's, my wife and I attended the Summer School of Polish Catholic Culture, which is held in The John Paul 11 nd Home in Rome. The then Pope donated all the gifts he received on his worldly travels, to the Home, which has become a museum of the Polish Holy Father's time at the Vatican.

I was somewhat amused to be told that to visit the Home, which was a little way outside Rome, the Pope had to first ask permission from the Bishop of the See in which the Home stood.

Not that the Pope's request would ever be refused, of course. It is just that certain niceties of behaviour must always be honoured. ++ Trevor

3kings
March 4, 2006 - 06:31 pm
Robby I was under the impression that "The Dark Ages" extended over the years following the fall of Rome, to 1000 ad. That would place Frederic outside that era. ++ Trevor

robert b. iadeluca
March 4, 2006 - 08:01 pm
That's interesting, Trevor. What ages, then, do the Dark Ages cover? From when to when?

Robby

Justin
March 4, 2006 - 11:32 pm
The "Dark Ages" are not a specific time just as the "Medieval Period" is rather loosely defined. However given that preface, one generally assumes the "Dark Ages" to be from the Sixth to the Eleventh centuries. There was a Twelfth Century Renaissance which flowered through the Fourteenth. It was enhanced by soldiers returning from the Holyland with booty. In the Fifteenth Century an Italian Renaissance, aided by an unearthing of classical artifacts, launched Europe into an era of rediscovery.

These are very broad terms because historians speak of awakenings in Justinian's Sixth, the Seventh of Charlemagne, the Ottonian of the Ninth and so on. We all remember the Muslim and Catholic copyists operating in Grenada, Spain,. in the Tenth.

Durant defines the Dark Ages as that period lyimg between 566 and 1095. You will recall that 1095 is the year in which the first crusade is launched by the Norman barons of Southern Italy. It is this comingling with Islam that brings on the renaissance and an end to the Dark Ages.

Justin
March 4, 2006 - 11:57 pm
What was it that made the Dark Ages "dark"? The question and it's answer goes to the heart of the issues addressed in this conversation. It deals with the quiddity of civilization.

Durant defines the Dark Ages as falling between the death of Boethius in 524 and the birth of Abelard in 1079. This period was marked by conflict. There were violent invasions from the north and from the east so that man had no chance to put down his weapon long enough to build a house and plant a garden.

What little knowledge the world possessed retreated into monasteries and was given the "Christian" treatment before it emerged in later centuries. It is interesting that Durant selects the emergence of Abelard as catalyst for the end of the Dark period. Abelard challenges Church doctrine on several fronts but in the end retreats before the Inquisition.

I picked, as many historians select, 1095 and the launching of the Crusades as the catalyst that ended the period of "dark". When one selects Abelard one implies that the darkness is due to christian superstition and I don't disagree with that. I find the Crusades to be a catalyst awakening the mind to other possibilities.

Justin
March 5, 2006 - 12:04 am
In many ways, Frederick is an example of the new thinking we will find more and more prevalent in Europe from this moment on. There will be challenges to the Christian Doctrine peaking in the just preceding century with Neitzche and his vision of the dead God.

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 05:29 am
Quiddity?

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 08:20 am
"To make this monolithic state majestic and holy without relying on a Christianity normally hostile to him, Frederick strove to restore in his own person all the awe and splendor that had hedged a Roman emperor.

"His exquisite coins were stamped with no Christian word or symbol but with the circular legend IMP/ROM/Cesar/Aug and on the reverse was the Roman eagle enriched with the name Friderieus.

"The people were taught that the Emperor was in a sense the Son of God. His laws were the divine justice codified and were referred to as Iustitia - almost the third person of a new trinity.

"Anxious to place himself beside the old Roman emperors in the history and galleries of art, Frederick commissioned sculptors to carve his likeness in stone. A bridgehead at the Volturno, a gate at Capus were adorned with reliefs in ancient style of himself and his aides. Nothing remains of these works except a female head of great beauty.

"This pre-Renaissance attempt to revive classic art failed -- washed away by the Gothic wave."

I would call Frederick a terrific public relations man.

Robby

Rich7
March 5, 2006 - 08:28 am
"Frederick commissioned sculptors to carve his likeness in stone. A bridgehead at the Volturno, a gate at Capus were adorned with reliefs in ancient style of himself and his aides. Nothing remains of these works except ..."

Ozymandias

I met a traveler from an antique land Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown, And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, Tell that its sculptor well those passions read, Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed, And on the pedestal these words appear: "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.

-Percy Bysshe Shelley

Justin
March 5, 2006 - 02:47 pm
Yes, Robby. "Quiddity" is the essense of what we have been talking about these past four years. It is that civilization is evident when man is free to put down his weapon and take up his hoe. When he rests at night he can reflect upon his relation with his neighbor and the meaning of life.

I think you are right, Robby. Frederick, this son of God, this third member of the Trinity, who puts his name in Latin on coins, and who fails to say "In the Pope We Trust", is a good PR man.

mabel1015j
March 5, 2006 - 03:18 pm

Rich7
March 5, 2006 - 03:35 pm
Noun

The essence that makes something the kind of thing it is and makes it different from any other.

(From WordReference.com)

Rich

robert b. iadeluca
March 5, 2006 - 06:32 pm
This is one of those things that makes our discussion group so successful -- not just the reading of Durant's volumes from a historical point of view but the words and phrases used by Durant and by various participants here.

From this discussion I have learned so much about history, geography, philosophy, religion, language, economics, science, and art.

I have grown so much in these past four years, thanks to all of you here. I know I am biased but, in all due respect to all the other SN discussions, this one stands out. And it it not due to the DL. We are a collective brain, so to speak.

Robby

Adrbri
March 5, 2006 - 07:46 pm
This is also the title of the first chapter of our treatise, Rembrandt's Eyes, and I came across the word here for the first time. It is a word with a very specific meaning, and was well used by both Schama, referring to Rembrandt, and by Justin in referring to the discussion of this group over the last four years.

I would like to express an opinion that the group under Ginny's gentle direction is also worthy of mention as posessing a collective and analytical brain. Here we learn about history, and there, about art and history.

Brian

Dan Griffith
March 5, 2006 - 11:31 pm

Dan Griffith
March 6, 2006 - 12:30 am
Justin is right in his post 985 about the Crusades being the beginning of the end for the Dark Ages. Byzantium, and Palestine contained lots of books, from Europe, but long lost and forgotten, which were over the course of time brought back to Europe as war booty.

But all of this happened in a mileau of tumultuous relations between Europe, Byzantium, and Islamic areas, normally taking the form of military agression.

Durant talks a little about Enrico Dandolo, appointed Doge of Venice at age 84, who conquered Constantinople, when he was over 90.Durant only says about him, "Through his Machiavellian diplomacy, and personal heroism Venice avenged the disaster of 1171 by capturing and despoiiling Constantinople in 1204"

I've read elsewhere the Venetians brought their ships up the Marmara Sea to the city walls about forty feet tall. On some of their ships the Venetians built towers, which mounted a pivoting gangway at top, expressly designed to provide a path for their infantry to flood the tops of the walls with men.

The first man up one of the towers, and across the gangway, and the first man to reach the enemy was Enrico Dandolo, over ninty years old and blind. He swung his sword with one arm while his personal servant help on to the other one to guide him

By capturing the city the Venetians became the dominant power in the eastern Med and Black Sea, and the commercial leadership of Europe passed from Byzantium to Italy.

There was a lot of interaction between Europe and the region of the Holy Land. A lot of homocidal competition between Italian city states for most favored trading status with the Byzantines.

The attitudes of the Dark Ages were still evident in the Venetians, Durant says, "They had a good public library, but seem to have made little use of it. No contributions to learning, no lasting poetry appeared among this unrivaled wealth. Schools were numerous in the 13th. cent. and we hear of private and state scholarships for poor students; but as late as the 14th. cent. there were Venetian judges who could not read".

Venice's rowing ships, some with 180 oars kept up a constant communication with Tyre, Alexandria,Lisbon,London, and dozens of other places.

Europe was starting to bust out all over the place, and the east was divided, weak, and very rich.

Éloïse De Pelteau
March 6, 2006 - 06:21 am
I used to wonder why it was called THE DARK AGES and Wikipedia gave me a good and simple explanation. In French we just call it "Le Moyen Âge".

robert b. iadeluca
March 6, 2006 - 06:33 am
"Despite his near-divinity and royal industry, Frederick found it possible to enjoy life at all levels in his Foggia court.

"An army of slaves, many of them Saracens, ministered to his wants and managed the bureaucracy.

"In 1235, his secnd wife having died, he married again but Isabella of England could not understand his mind or morals and retired into the background while Frederick consorted with mistresses and begot an illegitimate son.

"His enemies charged him with maintaining a harem and Gregory IX accused him of sodomy. Frederick explained that all these white or black ladies or lads were used only for their skill in song, dance, acrobatics or other entertainment traditional in royal courts.

"In addition to these he kept a menagerie of wild beasts and sometimes he traveled with a retinue of leopards, lynxes, lions, panthers, apes, and bears, led on a chain bby Saracen slaves.

"Frederick loved hunting and hawking, collected strange birds and wrote for his son Manfred an admirable and scientific treatise on falconry."

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy -- but not Frederick!

Robby

Justin
March 6, 2006 - 04:50 pm
Having mistresses on hand to attend to ones every need must be boring at times as well as a strain on a man's well being. The problem is a little like having seventy virgins on hand at all times. A fellow must choose and I can see how that might be nerve wracking at times.

jane
March 6, 2006 - 06:18 pm
Time to move to a new discussion area:

---Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Volume IV, Part 10 ~ Nonfiction