We are the product of those who came before us -- our parents, our ancestors of long ago, even primitive man. Our behaviors, our beliefs, and our physicial appearances have been handed down to us in an unbroken line. Everything develops from something else - either genetically or environmentally or both.

Communication -- transportation -- the struggle for survival -- all existed at the dawn of history and even before. The methods changed ever so gradually over the millennia and eons but the inherent needs remain.

In this, his first of 11 volumes, Will Durant wrote; "I wish to tell as much as I can, in as little space as I can, of the contributions that genius and labor have made to the cultural heritage of mankind." He adds, in observing the Orient which he sees as the scene of the primordial stew: "At this historic moment when the ascendancy of Europe is so rapidly coming to an end, when Asia is swellng with resurrected life, and the theme of the twentieth century seems destined to be an all-embracing conflict between the East and the West ... the future faces into the Pacific, and understanding must follow it there." And he wrote that in 1932!!

And then he asks this penetrating question: "How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient?" In order to simultaneously challenge and yet depress us, he answers his own question -- "Not even a lifetime of devoted scholarship would suffice to initiate a Western student into the subtle character and secret lore of the East."

Are we, therefore, about to engage in a useless exercise? Or are we in fact becoming part of that unbroken line wherein we help to pass on to our descendants of tomorrow or 5,000 years from now our own behaviors, beliefs, and appearances. We read today's comments of those who live in the Near and Far East, we learn of new dangers taking place in our homeland being caused by those living on the other side of the earth, and day by day we become more acutely aware of our cultural differences.

How can it be that a culture so different from ours was, in effect, the creator of all that we in the West now are? Let us plunge into a discussion that may change our thinking forever!! Perhaps plunge is not the proper approach. Let us dip our toes in ve-e-ery slo-o-o-ow - ly for two reasons.

1) Almost every remark of Durant is meaty. It can be so easy to move rapidly past comments relevant to our discussion, and
2) Each civilization is a complete topic unto itself. Even the first topic (prehistoric man) has much to tell us about ourselves.

Durant states that four elements constitute civilization:

1 - Economic provision (our first sub-topic)
2 - Political organization
3 - Moral traditions
4 - Pursuit of knowledge and the arts

Following Durant's line of progression, our first sub-topic, as indicated above, is "The Economic Elements of Civilization." Just below the dividing line in the Heading above are quotations which will be periodically changed. This is to help those participants here who have not yet obtained the book as well as helping us to stay together on a particular sub-topic. Volume One is eminently readable and the temptation is to post on comments made later in the book. I urge everyone here to stay together. It will be especially tempting to move ahead to the "civilized" societies. Primitive man, however, did much to create our society of today. Let us not ignore him.

We are a lively group. There will be much disagreement and so it should be among thinking people. However, we will follow the usual Senior Net policy, i.e. all disagreement will be done in an agreeable way.

I ask, also, that you pause regularly to admire our Heading here. Marjorie, who created the beautiful Heading that had been used with the discussion group, "Democracy in America," kindly consented to use her artistic and technical talents to create our attractive Heading above. I thank her profusely for this. A beautiful Heading is like a beautiful cover to a book. It sometimes determines whether the book is opened or not.

Let us, therefore, start with Durant's comment: He says: "In one important sense, the 'savage,' too, is civilized, for he carefully transmits to his children the heritage of the tribe."

We begin, as Durant did, with Economic Elements as expressed by primitive man.

Do you agree with him that man became human when he began the domestication of animals, the breeding of cattle, and the use of milk?
Are you in agreement that while man was hunting, woman was making the greatest economic discovery of all -- the bounty of the soil?
Do you see a relationship between economics and primitive man providing for the future?
Where does the use of fire come in?
How about the development of tools?
What has primitive man done to move us onto where we are today?

Be sure to click onto the "Subscribe" button and now -- YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE?

If you don't mind my being just a bit "picky," we are not a "classroom." There is no professor, no students, no grades to be given out, and no one fails. No one here is an expert, least of all me!! We are all here together to try to solve a mystery -- just where did we all come from? Just who were those primitive people of thousands and thousands of years ago who made us what we are today?

Let's all play detective and maybe some of Durant's quotes above can help us as we go along.

To me, the beginnings/stages of our social development seem buried in the mists of time, with perhaps creativity and imagination as the key which moved mankind forward. I am eagerly looking forward to learning as this discussion moves to unlock the mysteries of the past.

How do the rest of you feel about that? Do you see any animals as exhibiting creativity and imagination? In your past readings about Primitive Man (and also considering Durant's quotes above), do you see creativity and imagination as being used?

I like Mary's seeing what we are doing as "unlocking the mysteries of the past." Let us look at ourselves as detectives examining each bit of evidence, piece by piece, and putting together the steps which led Primitive Man to where we are now.

We are not alone in trying to solve that mystery. Accompanying us every step of the way are Will and Ariel Durant who explain to us, in detail, just what was taking place in the life of the Primitive. You might call them the crime labs that help the detective.

So let us do what all detectives do -- we start with guesses. Could it have been this? Could it have been that? No one here is an expert!!

Thank you for adding more "evidence" to help solve the mystery.

Where did all that come from? Any relationship between that and Durant's quote (above) which starts with "The Dog that buried the bone, etc?"

Robby

At this point of our evolutionary process we are amazed at the recent success of the Mars orbiter and the views it provides us of that planet.

While we gaze in awe at the beautiful pictures taken through the Hubble telescope and see the magnitude and magnificence of the Universe, we also realize how insignificant we are.

Yet we are part of this 15 billion year Cosmos creation which is still in the process of evolving.

When we look through the microscope at the atom we see what a complex wonder of creation we are, in size gigantic to an atom, and so small, a speck of dust to a star.

The evolutionary path of creation and civilization took us from the atomic nuclei and the cell nuclei to the galactic nuclei, but it was only when the animal and human brain developed that civlization took a giant leap, and that survival of the fittest prevailed and man could live in comfort. The goal of science for mankind should be the attainment of maximum knowledge and consciousness for all nations and the unique human awareness of the benefits of working together for the utmost advance of civilization and protection for all people, nations and cultures. No individual human can hope to possess more than a tiny fraction of the knowledge in all subjects and fields now carried by our species in our world as a collective entity.

The development of the home computer and the world wide internet now allows 10,000,000 computers and their users to communicate together and share their acquired knowledge world wide.

Knowledge in every subject and field is doubling daily, and with the easy accessibility to that knowledge, humans no longer are forced to form deductions and find solutions for problems alone, with their single puny brain power.

Humans can now solve all problems by becoming a part of a collective thinking entity, with the best human brains and highest intellects in the world available, covering every subject and every field, using the present educational expertise and computer literacy now available.

Although humans have a limited life span, they could provide the seeds for life on other planets, and they themselves be instruments in the Co-creation and spread of Civilization in the Universe.<p. Pat

You say that "it was only when the animal and human brain developed that civlization took a giant leap."

Do you believe that Primitive Man represented "civilization?" To what point had his brain developed? What is your reaction to Durant's remark (above" which starts with "In one important sense?"

Robby

Regarding MaryDeBoers mention of "creativity and imagination as being the key which moved mankind forward". I believe necessity (for both ease of living conditions and amusement) motivated creativity and imagination. I also believe the abundance of man-made recreational indulgences stifle them.

We have now heard about creativity, imagination, and necessity. As indicated above, our current Sub-topic is "The Economic Elements of Civilization" and, in particular, that of Primitive Man. Primitive man (again as indicated above) spent time in hunting, fishing, herding, and agriculture.

Does anyone here see a similarity between the Economy of their lives and our own economic activities? How does necessity, creativity, and imagination relate to the Economy of civilized man?

And, to follow the thinking of Tucson Pat, do recreational indulgences stifle them? Did Primitive Man have any recreation?

Robby

Robby

You say you "have always thought the major contribution to the advancement of civilization was curiosity. However, animals also display that character. Or are they just advancing at a slower pace than man? Hmmm?"

The emphasis on "hmmm?" was mine and I did so because in just one word (if that is a word), you illustrate what I hope is our attitude here. We are trying to unravel a mystery. Please note the three questions just below the title -- Hmmm?

My Italian immigrant relatives were great story tellers and they used stories to relate both family history and comical, amusing folk tales.

Robby

Robby

Robby

How do the rest of you react to that?

Gladys also says:--Civilization has brought many new changes,but basically it is the same.

Agree? Disagree?

You talk about "seeing the little cubs playing at stalking their prey and play fighting amongst themselves in order to learn how to seek out food and capture it, I am sure that is how Primitave man learned to find food too. Even our children today learn as they play."

So play is a serious business! Is it possible, then, that adult "cavemen" were able to stay alive because of what they had learned while playing as children?

Robby

In your #36 and #38 posts you mention lanquage differences.

I think that the use of a common lanquage must have had a large effect in the growth of civilization.

When the American troops first landed in Africa in 1942 during WW2, there were many cultural differences we had to get accustomed to.

There were so many different Arabian dialects that the Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians had difficulties in communications in their own native lanquages among the different tribes in northern Africa, and used French as a second lanquage, as these were all French Colonies. As I was bi-linqual, I got along very well with the Arabs.

The thing that surprised me the most was that the strong centuries old patriarchal system was still in existence, in which women were still regarded as chattel, and not as equals to the men-folk.

  It was no uncommon sight to see a woman and a donkey hitched up together, doing the chores in the hot sun, while the man of the domicle fanned himself, in the shade , under a nearby tree while he supervised the job.

In Tunisia, it was customary among the Nomad Bedouins, who were desert dwellers and continually moving, that the man usually travelled 20 paces ahead of his wife, on his donkey, to denote his male authority position.

The woman tradionally trudged on foot behind, carrying a large bundle of firewood on her head.

Riding the donkey ahead of his wife made it possible for the man to point out sticks of wood that she might not see. She would then pick up the piece, and add it to the bundle already on top of her head.

While the Germans were retreating in the desert they planted numerous anti- personne mines to slow the American pursuit.

  Occasionally a mule would step on a mine, and the man and mule would be blown to Afghanistan to join Ben Ladin and the Kaliban.

This changed the whole patriarchal culture among the Bedouins, while we were there to observe it, and made them reconsider the position and status of their wives.

After the loss of a few men and mules, the women were given the privileged position of walking 20 paces in front of the mule, but still had to carry the bundle of wood on her head.

This made her more vulnerable to tripping a mine, but it saved a lot of men and mules from extinction.

Loved Glady's moving comparison of early humanity to a baby. Lately, I've often wondered if we are now at the rebellious *teenage* stage in our evolution. Testing the limits, free expression, self-consciousness, rollercoaster emotional swings etc.

What is evident about our ancestors is how adaptable they were. That was their genius. They lived in a state (by current standards) of unimaginable insecurity and vulnerability, yet they were able to move from place to place, to be either hunters or farmers as the situation dictated, to have a sense of place in the universe, to transmit their stories, to produce beautiful works of art (Lausaunne cave drawings?) and to survive.

I wonder too, sometimes, if true *civilization* requires that we remember and reconnect to the wisdom we once had about reverencing the earth and it's creatures, knowing that our survival still very much depends on nurturing it's source.

I'm certainly not advocating a return to the brutish, nasty and short lives of our forbears, (and incidentally, to those of many of the earth's current population) but to at least get off our high horse every once and awhile to see how fragile we still are.

I wonder too, if our arbitrary divisions of labour, religion, commerce, leisure etc. would make sense in these earlier tribal civilizations? Maybe it was all part of the circular fabric of daily life.

I remember from courses taken ages ago that when groups of chimps in the wild are provided with just what they need, and what they can harvest for themselves, they are harmonious and there is seldom bloodshed. If they are provided with excess of what they need in the form of a windfall of food, they become aggressive defending it --- hmmmmmm.

"The Oriental lived in a different but thoroughly organized world of his own, a world with its own national, cultural...principles of internal coherence. Yet what gave the Oriental's world its intelligeibility and identity was not the result of his own efforts but rather the whole complex series of knowledgeable manipulations by which the Orient was identified by the West."

I wish you the great success in this discussion that you had in the “Greatest Generation” and “Democracy....” I’m sure we all will be able to learn quite a bit from this interesting topic.

In one of your early posts here, you asked the question about the role primitive man played in civilization and the development of his brain. I do believe primitive human beings played a part in the development of civilization, if only because of the evolution that followed. The development of their brain was probably not much more than the limbic system, however, this allowed them to experience an emotional involvement in life such as love, anger, grief, etc. Their brain had to be more developed than the reptilian complex. Do you think the limbic system, as it developed in man to a more complex brain system, played a huge roll in civilization?

Bill H

In the land of Thule there is a huge rock that is 100 miles long, 100 miles wide and 100 miles high. Once every hundred years a little bird comes and sharpens its beak. When the rock is entirely worn away, a single day of eternity will have passed.

In the meantime, while I was away -- in came Beth, Ardie, Citruscat, Dig Girl, Barbara, Bill H, Harold, and Toni. WELCOME to all of you.

But it happens to be midnight here in Virginia, I am exhausted, and I will respond to your postings tomorrow. However, I do appreciate your participation!

In the quotes of Durant which are periodically changed (above in the green), he says that the "first element of civilization is labor, etc, etc." Do you folks agree with Citruscat that the adaptable "economy" the Primitive Man used had much to do with their move toward Civilization?

Dig Girl's question is answered by Durant by saying: "We have still to trace the prehistoric origins of our own particular civilization. We wish now to inquire briefly by what steps man, before history, prepared for the civilizations of history -- how the man of the jungle or the cave became an Egyptian architect, a Babylonian astronomer, a Hebrew prophet, a Persian governor, a Greek poet, a Roman engineer, a Hindu saint, a Japanese artist, and a Chinese sage. We must pass from anthropology through archeology to history."

So Dig Girl, who I believe is an anthropologist and archeologist in her own right, reminds us that we must not move too fast in examining our origins. At what point did pre-history become history?

"Does history support a belief in God? If by God we mean not the creative vitality of nature but a supreme being intelligent and benevolent, the answer must be a reluctant negative. Like other departments of biology, history remains at bottom a natural selection of the fittest individuals and group in a struggle wherein goodness receives no favors, misfortunes abound, and the final test is the ability to survive. Add to the crimes, wars and cruelty of man the tornadoes, pestilences, tidal waves and other 'acts of God' that periodically desolate human and animal life, and the evidence suggests either a blind or impartial fatality to which we subjectively ascribe order, beauty, or sublimity. Nature and history do not agree with our conceptions of good and bad; they define good as that which survives and bad as that which goes under, and the universe has no prejudice in favor of Christ or against Genghis Khan."

p.46, The Lessons in History by Will and Ariel Durant, published in 1968, "A distillation of the accumulated store of knowledge from their forty years of historical research."

In answer to Barbara and others here, the intention was to start toward the end of the year but over two dozen people were anxious to start and I was receiving emails asking me to get going. Everyone loves a mystery (which is what the Story of Civilization is about) and it made no sense to me that I should hold up everyone's desire to find out "who did it" just because a tentative date had been set.

Regarding Barbara's asking about whether this first volume will be for the month? My guess is that it will last far longer. We are only just touching on pre-historic, never mind historic, never mind Sumeria, and on from there. So please don't panic, folks. There will be plenty of time for everyone to give opinion after opinion. If you agree with Durant's various "conclusions," great. But if you don't, that's OK too. Senior Netters were never known to be passive!

If we "civilized" people experience love, anger, grief, etc. just as pre-historic people might have, then where and how and when did the change occur moving us from grunts to great oratory? Do you folks believe that we developed emotionally as well as intellectually?

Robby

"In the land of Thule there is a huge rock that is 100 miles long, 100 miles wide and 100 miles high. Once every hundred years a little bird comes and sharpens its beak. When the rock is entirely worn away, a single day of eternity will have passed."

Harold, after all these years I still have that book in my home library and I most definitely will NOT give it away in the Book Exchange. And when we pause to consider that definition of eternity, it helps us in this forum to visualize the time and distance between pre-historic man, which we are now considering, and the homo sapiens of today.

The question in the title above becomes more demanding: "What are our Origins?

Robby

Chicken or the egg? Did an increased brain size help to enable pre-historic man to make tools? Or did an "accidental" creation of a tool help to increase the size of his brain?

Do animals use tools?

Robby

It might seem at the moment that our examination of pre-historic and later historic man does not belong in a volume entitled "Our Oriental Heritage" but Durant does a marvelous job (in my opinion) of ever so gradually helping us to understand how the first known historic people evolved into "Oriental" culture. As best as I can see, Eastern populations feel very close to the origins of mankind whereas Western populations, in their gaze toward the future, have forgotten their backgrounds.

Pre-historic man, therefore, will help us to understand Eastern culture.

Robby

Both the pre-historic and historic populations he mentions as developing in those early times lived in the Near East. They then over the millennia spread to Europe and other parts of Africa. Many of us, then, who see ourselves as having European or African heritage may have a heritage we hadn't considered.

As Durant sees it, ALL OF US have Oriental heritage.

Makes one pause to think!

Robby

Robby, the change probably occurred very slowly. As primitive humans recognized their need for shelter, food, wearing apparel for warmth and the need for companionship, some sort of family or community life would have to have developed. Their emotional involvement in this banding together could have ment the very beginning of a primitive form of government. All of this new learning for them must have increased the development of brain size and capacity for retaining what they learned. When life changed from “grunts” to the civilized beings we are now probably took eons of time and would be difficult to pin point the exact era of such development.

Tucson, we had a rhinoceros at the Pittsburgh Zoo that used his “tool” like a weapon. He would stand with his back facing the on-lookers and fire away. There was no plate glass in between.)

Bill H

Does anyone here have any problem in seeing him or herself as having an Oriental heritage?

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

What reactions do you folks have to Durant's quote above which begins "To all the varied articles of diet...?"

Question:

Why is cannabalism considered primitive and refraining from eating human flesh civilized?

Robby

Robby

Durant's quotes listed above in GREEN are periodically changed.

PATRICK Please let Luis know his post was *a feast for thought*.

MAHLIA So nice to see you here!

Can only post intermittently, but I'm reading all the great posts and links. Wonderful!

Pauline

While the ice was retreating, this strange organism discovered fire, deveoped the art of fashioning stone and bone into weapons and tools, and thereby paved the way to civilization.

May I suggest that, as we continue our discussions, that we continue to ask ourselves: "What is civilization?" "What did Durant mean in saying 'pave the way?'" Were not these "strange organisms" civilized? Did they not use fire as we do? Did they not use weapons and tools as we do?

At what point can we say -- we have arrived at Civilization?

1 - Pre-Chellian Culture -- 125,000 B.C. -- presence of stones of a shape to fit the fist.
2 - Chellean Culture -- 100,000 B.C. -- flaking the tool on both sides, pointing it into the shape of an almond.
3 - Acheulean Culture -- 75,000 B.C. -- an abundance of remains -- vast variety of hammers, anvils, scrapers, planes, arrow-heads, spear-heads, and knives.
4 - Mousterian Culture -- 40,000 B.C. -- implements formed from large single flake -- lighter, sharper, shapelier-- remains of Neanderthal Man.
5 - Aurignacian Culture -- 25,000 B.C. -- first known culture of Cro-Magnon Man -- pins, anvils, polishers -- crude engravings on rocks -- simple figurines in high relief, mostly of nude women.
6 - Solutrean Culture -- 20,000 B.C. -- drills, saws, javelins -- slim sharp needles made of bone -- implements carved out of reindeer horn -- reindeer's antlers engraved with animal figures.
7 - Magdalenian Culture -- 16,000 B.C. -- delicate utensils in ivory, bone and horn -- in art it was the age of the Altamira drawings, the most perfect and subtle accomplishment of Cro-Magnon Man.

And so the march continued to arrive at where we are today.

Robby

Recently at a family gathering we had the opportunity to share the advances that civilization has made just in our short lifetime.

During the depression my family household consisted of a mother and father and 14 childrem, living in a house near the railroad yards, and getting acquainted with the poorest of the poor, the jobless vagrants who rode the rails looking for work opportunities and food.

We were born before television, penicillin, polio shots, frozen foods, Xerox, contact lenses, Frisbees and the pill.

There was no radar, credit cards, laser beams or ball-point pens. Man had not invented pantyhose, air conditioners, dishwashers, clothes dryers, the clothes were hung out to dry in the fresh air and man hadn't yet walked on the moon.

We got married first-and then lived together. Every family had a father and a mother, and every boy over 12 had a rifle that his dad taught him how to use and respect.   And we went hunting and fishing together.

Until we were 25, we called every man older than ourselves,"Sir" and after we turned 25, we still called policemen and every man with a title, "Sir."

Sundays were set aside for going to church as a family, helping those in need, and visiting with family or neighbors. We were before gay-rights, computer-dating, dual careers, daycare centers, and group therapy.

Our lives were governed by the Ten Commandments, good judgment, and common sense.   We were taught to know the difference between right and wrong and to stand up and take responsibility for our actions.

Serving our country was a privilege; living here was a bigger privilege.

We thought fast food was what people ate during Lent. Having a meaningful relationship meant getting along with your cousins.

Draft dodgers were people who closed their front doors when the evening breeze started.

Time-sharing meant time the family spent together in the evenings and weekends not purchasing condominiums.

We never heard of FM radios, tape decks, CDs, electric typewriters, yogurt, or guys wearing earrings. We listened to the Big Bands, Jack Benny, and the President's speeches on our radios.   And I don't ever remember any kid blowing his brains out listening to Tommy Dorsey.

If we saw anything with 'Made in Japan' on it, it was junk. The term 'making out' referred to how we did on our school exam.

Pizza Hut, McDonald's, and instant coffee were unheard of. We had 5 and 10 cent stores where we could actually buy things for 5 and 10 cents.

Ice cream cones, phone calls, rides on a streetcar, and a Pepsi were all a nickel.   And if we didn't want to splurge, we could spend our nickel on enough stamps to mail 1 letter and 2 postcards.

We could buy a new Chevy Coupe for $600, but who could afford one?   Too bad, because gas was 11 cents a gallon.

In our day, 'grass' was mowed, 'coke' was a cold drink, 'pot' was something our mother cooked in, and 'rock music' was our mother's lullaby .'Aids' were helpers in the Principal's office, 'chip' meant a piece of wood, 'hardware' was found in a hardware store, and 'software' wasn't even a  word.

And we were the last generation to actually believe that a lady needed a husband to have a baby.

Pat

Just remembered a quote by Gandhi -- when asked what he thought about Western Civilization -- *I think that would be a good idea* (may not be verbatim).

MARYPAGE Found myself nodding vigorously while reading your post.

Have also heard arguments (and I can't remember the sources) that even *civilized* behaviour is survival oriented. IMO Guess it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's better to form alliances and keep the workforce than to kill everyone.

Pauline

I know I am repeating myself but just a reminder that the quotes above by Durant (in GREEN) are periodically changed and may help to stimulate further thinking.

Robby

I am wondering if the so-called "global warming" of our time may, in coming centuries, affect population movements.

A great choice of words to help us see how the length of our lifetimes compare to the period of the development of Civilization we are examining -- much less pre-historic periods.

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

During the evolutionary development of modern human physiology, over countless millennia, our bodies evolved and adapted to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle and hunter-gatherer diets. In our sedentary lifestyle with our fat and sugar rich diets we really are fish out of water. Our preferential tastes for fats and sugars evolved in natural environments in which they were relatively scarce. There are few fat hunter-gatherers. Their active lifestyle keeps them fit.

In all sorts of discussion groups around Senior Net people are saying that they are "lurking" in this forum.

Don't stay hidden!! Rise up!! Say "boo!" Say anything. Make your presence known!

Robby

our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we
have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by
this point of plale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great
enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there
is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save
us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There
is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species
could migrate. Visit, yes, Settle, not yet. Like it or
not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand."

Carl Sagan

This Story of Civilization, does it give us hope? I would like to think so. I am reading as fast as I can, but have too much to read. I will try to join in as soon as possible.

Tiger Tom

Tiger Tom, thank you for reminding us of Carl Sagan's remarks which are so important to re-read when we get so filled with self-importance. Sagan said: "Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those Generals and Emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot." As we move forward in discussing Durant's book, we will see in detail some of those "rivers of blood" activities which took place in one civilization after another.

LIES, -- you insist on calling yourself that so that is how we will address you, -- but by whatever name (Shakespeare inserts himself here), you are most welcome here. Already in your first post you shared with us some valuable information and (speaking as the Discussion Leader) I am pleased to see that you are a participant who sticks to the topic at hand. We all wander from time to time -- as friends in a living room conversation might do -- but we then get back to our original topic.

You say: "This group seems to me exceptionally tolerant, receptive and all in all, a real nice bunch of people. Our faces (hairless or not) BLUSH with pride at your remarks but simultaneously we agree with you. At times our discussions become heated (we are not a passive group) but our overriding philosophy is "disagree in an agreeable way." We look forward to your continued participation.

What do you make of the multiple etchings stacked one on another, so that nothing was distinguishable? Modern art?

On the book jacket is written: "His researches gradually led him into the formation of a plan for writing a history of all civilization, ancient and modern, Occidental and Oriental." I would guess that he chose that word to complement the word Occidental (East and West) as opposed to using Asia which is merely one continent out of a number of them. Egypt, for example, is in Africa but is one of the major civilizations in Volume One.

Robby

And a reminder that our life in the West is not the only civilization.

Robby

Fire was not primarily used for cooking, but it kept animals at bay. I t improved security. In Africa, they sit around the fire at night because the smoke keeps mosquitoes away. I supposed it also protects from evil spirits.

BOOOOOOOOH!

Robby

One of the care takers told me that the male orangoutang had died and the female orangoutang went into a state of mourning, quit eating, lost weight and the zoo officials were afraid it might die of loneliness.

They heard about a retired former Irish Policeman who has so much facial and bodily hair he actually looked like an orangoutang.

The zoo officials went to him and asked him to help with the problem.

After talking the situation over with his Bishop he was allowed to spend time in the cage with the grieving orangoutang until it recovered and was no longer in mourning.

The primary requirement was that he had to promise the Bishop that any offspring would be baptized Catholic.

I think the zoo keeper was pulling my leg.

Pat

Robby

Taking these three items one at a time, we see from the quotations above in green that there was one specific metal that had a lot to do with what Durant calls "The Transition to History."

Durant tells us in his Section III, in the chapter entitled The Beginnings of Civilization that "copper by itself was soft, admirably pliable for some purposes (what would our electrified age do without it), but too weak for the heavier tasks of peace and war. An alloy was needed to harden it.

"Though nature suggested many, and often gave Man copper already mixed and hardened with tin or zinc -- forming, therefore, ready-made bronze or brass -- he may have dallied for centuries before taking the next step -- the deliberate fusing of metal with metal to make compounds more suited to his needs. The discovery is at least five thousand years old."

This would lend credence to Anna's remark that "fire had to be the real beginning of civilized life." Now we are moving out of the "cave-man" style of living. Now we are talking about activities that require a more-developed brain. We are talking about smelting -- an industry that exists to this day.

Obviously, as Durant points out, metals played a most important part in "the transition to History." Do you folks see metals playing that important a part in our own era? There are some who say that plastics are replacing metals. Is metal as important to us now as it was 5,000 years ago? What are your thoughts?

Robby

Great discussion here!

I am a new Australian and have been researching the Aborigines' development and rock art. Re "civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends" ...metals were important but so too was the development of the mind and beliefs (religion is relatively new?). Coping with new life, death and bodies, Nature in all its moods and the basic instincts for food and shelter.... primary sources of motivation?

From my own reading I learnt that the Stone Age ran from about 2 million years ago to about 10,000 years ago, which was the end of the Ice Age. During the Ice Age there were natural bridges of solid, frozen ice and land, that allowed humans to travel over what would later be vast rivers and seas. These early people wandered from Africa to Europe and Asia, and from Asia to America, probably in search of food.

Here in Australia it is now thought the indigenous people, Aboriginals ( in our time last of the Stone Age people), were here at least 45,000 years ago. They, LIVED (many still LIVE) their beliefs, became "at one" with Nature, and, as Jung might say, they resonated to the archetypal memories of humankind.

To be brief and provide a sort of precis I found this quote: "The Dreamtime is the period in which creative acts were performed by the first ancestors of men -- spirits, heroes, and heroines who established the pattern of nature and life, and created man's environment. The Dreamtime is a process as well as a period: it had its beginning when the world was young and unformed, but it has never ceased. The ancestor who established law and patterns of behaviour is as alive today as when he performed his original creative acts. The sacred past, the Dreamtime, is for Aborigines also the sacred present, the Eternal Dreamtime."

I will continue to read in here as I also continue to read up on the Aborigines. I confess to being equally entrigued with Budhism which also seeks peace for the human spirit. I am sure that in quiet times we all resonate to the "total/whole" archtype and therefore the type of discussion provided here encourages deeper thought.

Robby invited me to join you all in this wonderful discussion but after reading 55 of the posts and still needing to catch up with more, I have decided not to do more than lurk here. Dealing with the dawn of civilization plus the dawn of the United States(am reading and discussing John Adams with Ella and Harold) seems to be a bit much for me right now. This is definitely a hummin' place!

Robby

Robby

"To this day many primitive peoples, eg the Eskimos and the Polynesian Islanders, remain in the Age of Stone, knowing iron only as a delicacy brought to them by explorers. Sooner or later iron had to come, and it is one of the anomalies of history that, being so abundant, it did not appear at least as early as copper and bronze."

Does it appear odd to anyone here that the Age of Stone and the Atomic Age can live on the same planet simultaneously? Ten thousand years and perhaps only hundreds of miles apart?

Robby

What does that tell us about ourselves?

We are approaching true Civilization.

ANNAFAIR Amen to that!

Where I live, maple syrup is quite an industry. I saw a museum exhibit once about how maple syrup was made by the native people locally. They didn't have metal tools, but they certainly had the cooking process perfected.

They would gather the sap in a hollowed-out log and immerse hot rocks into it. They just repeated this until it was syrup. It must have been valuable stuff! What reminded me was and earlier post about using the poker to heat the stout.

Do you agree with Anna that we are, in fact, progressing? In what way are we "better" than we were a year ago, a century ago, a thousand years ago? Take writing, for example, which we are now discussing (see quotes above). Has our writing improved?

Writing could only exist from the moment man had a clear idea of what he wanted to express,had materialized his thoughts and feelings. Then he could invent symbols for it.

Was it in Sumaria that hundreds of clay tablets were found, covered with that cuneiform writing? It looks like sticks and coins. I am not sure if it was an alphabet or a writing system. Probably ideograms like the chinese, or the aztec or maya glyphes.

Writing was not only signs as we understand it, the Amerindians had a writing on ropes with knots on them. Writing gave birth to numbers, much later and was limited to the priviledged ruling caste and part of the religious side of it.
Bubble

Do you folks agree with this?

May I add a suggestion, Luis, under the topic of writing? You regularly bring up a number of important items but it would make for easier reading if you broke up your posting into paragraphs.

Sea Bubble says: "Writing could only exist from the moment man had a clear idea of what he wanted to express,had materialized his thoughts and feelings."

Any connection in the minds of participants here between Sea Bubble's having "a clear idea of what he wanted to express" and Luis' "being able to say what we think?" Do you find it any easier to think if you put your thoughts down on paper? Any connection between thinking and writing? Do you believe that this helped the "advancement of Man?"

Eloise: It is not my plan to keep calling attention to any quotations above in green that have been changed but have been doing this only at the start of this forum so that participants keep in mind that the quotations periodically change with the sub-topic in hand and that this change sometimes occurs rapidly.

"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."

Durant tells us that these four elements exist in all forms of civilization. As we prepare to enter the first civilizations, which were in the Orient, we will examine these four elements in these civilizations, just as Durant does.

We have already covered the economic element in Primitive Man which was primarily food, shelter, and survival. Let us at this moment examine what Durant means by "political." What does he say are the origins of government?

He states that "It is war that makes the chief, the king and the state, just as it is these that make war. Societies are ruled by two powers - in peace by the word, in crisis by the sword. Force is used only when indoctrination fails." He then asks: "How did war lead to the state?"

Your thoughts please?

Robby

Mankind began with pictographs and moved on toward various forms of writing. Is Man reverting?

Every normal person learns to speak, and speaking involves, among other things, producing words. By reachng adulthood a speaker in our Western culture may well have produced some 50 million words. There is hardly any other human skill that is so well practiced.

In normal speech we produce words at rates of some 2 to 4 per second. These words are continuously selected from a mental lexicon containing tens of thousands of words. Still, we make few errors. On average, we select the wrong word (for instance left when we mean right) no more than once in a thousand items.

Robby

The development of lanquages gave human's the ability to communicate together and form alliances to work collectively for their own support and protection.

  The development of metals and the use of arms and tools not only accounted for a great advancement in civilization, but has also caused divisions in cultures, and wars that formed and divided nations.

Durant's quote about peace by the word, and crisis by the sword has been proven throughout history and demonstrated the value of negotiations.<p. Darwin's quote about survival of the fittest has also been demonstrated. but it has brought about the greed and resentment problems we have today between nations and cultures.

Pat

"I believe many people use them (four letter words) every other word or so like a cook uses oatmeal in a meatloaf. They don't have enough to say, so stretch it out a little with four-letter fillers. We don't need to be offended by them as much as we need to pity their limitations."

Robby

Robby

Do you folks agree with that?

Robby

As to whether we will continue to go onto the Volume II after completing this one -- we are no where near making a decision. I will say this -- if I had the opportunity to "buy the whole lot for 60 dollars," (the whole eleven volumes) I would snap it up!

I agree with you completely about "the joy of being here and sharing." My complete set has been sitting on the shelf for 20 years and I knew I would get to the point of reading them some day -- but now reading them along with all of you -- as you say: "the joy of being here and sharing."

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Is the whole United States of America "involved" with the Taliban? Are we at war?

Do you folks agree with that?

Robby

"In Samoa the chief had power during war, but at other times no one paid much attention to him. The Dyaks had no other government than that of each family by its head. In case of strife they chose their bravest warrior to lead them, and obeyed him strictly. Once the conflict was ended they literally sent him about his business. In the intervals of peace it was the priest, or head magician, who had the most authority and influence. When at last a permanent kingship developed as the usual mode of government among a majority of tribes, it combined the offices of warrior, father and priest."

Was this a combination of "pen and sword" in the same person?

Durant quotes Lester Ward: "The state is distinct from tribal organization. It begins with the conquest of one race by another."

He quotes Oppenheimer: "Everywhere we find some warlike tribe breaking through the boundaries of some less warlike people, settling down as nobility, and founding its state." He also quotes Ratzenhofer as saying: "Violence is the agent which has created the state."

He continues to quote others -- Gumplowicz: "The state is the result of conquest, the establishment of the victors as a ruling caste over the vanquished" and Sumner: "The state is the product of force, and exists by force."

Now that we are at the point where Durant is discussing "The Political Elements of Civilization" (see above), we are able to more easily compare early civilization with our current civilizations.

What are your observations?

Robby

Robby

Is this a concept which we, as a human race, should shy away from or is it a necessity in order to form and maintain a state? Is a state itself a necessity? Looking at our current Western civilization, what purpose do you see the state serving? Do you believe that we, as individuals, could do without it?

Robby

Your #290 post concerning civilization moving past the tribe reminded me about how Russia and Germany took over so many countries by the sword, while Neville Chamberlain, the Prime Minister of England, was trying to use the pen and the word with his "Peace at any Price" proclamations.

By using the sword Russia and Germany almost took over the world in WW2.

The sword as used by the allies proved to be more powerful.

Pat

You say:-- "I think of progress, as used today, especially in the news, as regression."

Would you mind expanding on that a bit?

Robby

That's exactly the reason why we have the quotes in GREEN above which are changed periodically. They follow along with the text seen by those who have the book. Of course, those with the book may speak of passages they are reading that I have not mentioned.

While you are all encouraged to obtain the book, it is perfectly possible to participate in this discussion group from start to finish without ever having the book.

Sheila, we are looking forward to your continued participation.

Eloise: STOP POSTING!! We don't want to lose Carolyn!

Robby

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

LadyC, I totally agree with you, I also would prefer state under the rule of the people than people under the rule of state,. Just good wishes? Or a possibility exists? When the state is ruled by a few powerful interests there is heavy danger of becoming something like Animal Farm, Hitler or Stalin

Mary Page, Your posting was superb, the last paragraph where you said that knowledge could be the only means to attain a better civilization really gives us much to think about, thank you.

Luis

Robby

The big advantage of the computer, the pen and the word over the sword is being demonstrated in this forum with the sharing of view points from every nation and culture.

Those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to re-live it.

Now in hindsight we look back at the wars our country has been involved in, some unjustified, and are able to visualize and consider the number of innocent men women and children unnecessarily killed, crippled or maimed, because of the mis-calculations of our leaders, both military and political.

With the present world wide prolific production of nuclear capability, and the threats that have been made against us, we now realize how important it is to choose our political and military leaders to make the right decisions.

A mis-calculation at this critical time could terminate all existence as we know it.

Pat

Robby

Every civilized nation here today is resolved to keep the most basic commitment of civilization...Civilization itself, the civilization we share, is threatened...The civilized world is now responding.

You will note that three of the quotes include the concept of "custom." Of the two -- custom and law -- which do you folks find as being the most powerful in everyday living?

Robby

Was just thinking -- haven't most *civilizations* been ushered in on the backs of slaves? The Americas' foundation has been bought through exploitation IMO. What if we had to pay all those people who maintained the plantations? This was all for the *start-up capital* of our society.

Have been enjoying these posts very much.

Durant quotes Alfred Russel Wallace who says: "I have lived with communities of savages in South America and the East who have no law or law-courts but the public opinion of the village freely expressed. Each man scrupulously respects the rights of his fellows, and any infraction of these rights rarely or never takes place."

Durant also quotes Herman Melville who wrote similarly of the Marquesas Islanders:

"During the time I have lived among the Typees, no one was ever put upon his trial for any violence to the public. Everything went on in the valley with a harmony and smoothness unparalleled in the most select, refined, and pious associations of mortals in Christendom."

Any comments upon these experiences or on Durant's quotes in GREEN above?

He says: "Personal revenge is the first. 'Vengeance is mine,' says the primitive individual. 'I will repay.' This principle of revenge persists throughout the history of Law. It appears in the Law of Retaliation embodied in Roman Law. It plays a large role in the Code of Hammurabi and in the 'Mosaic' demand of 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' and it lurks behind most legal punishments even in our day."

Any examples in your mind of similar law punishments in recent times?

"With the present world wide prolific production of nuclear capability, and the threats that have been made against us, we now realize how important it is to choose our political and military leaders to make the right decisions.

A mis-calculation at this critical time could terminate all existence as we know it."

I am not going to be critic about what is being done after september 11, but I agree with Patrick in the sense that if we had had more responsible leadership that fatidic day may have never happened.

Luis

He says that the Second Stage toward Law and Civilization was the "substitution of damages" for revenge. Very often the Chief, to maintain internal harmony, used his power or influence to have the revengeful family content itself with gold or goods instead of blood. Soon a regular tariff arose, determining how much be paid for an eye, a tooth, an arm, or a life.

Robby

And some of us have been thinking that mediation was a modern method of settling disputes!

Robby

My volume also has the "envoi." It has much to digest but, following our procedure of moving along with Durant (see his quote above which begins "I shall proceed ..."), we are going chapter by chapter.

We are now in Chapter III (The Political Elements of Civilization) and specifically in Section III entitled "Law." The quotes above relate to that Section (Law).

Kudos also to everyone else here. We, together, are making this a successful forum.

Robby

Robby

In response to your posts @#337 and #338 the Muslims were still using the "Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth" penalties during WW2 for infractions of the rights of other people.

In 1942, In Rabat, Morocco in Africa in the Town Square I witnessed the amputation of the hand of a pre-teen Arab youth involved in the black market, who had been stealing from the Army.

Severe punishment, but there was no more black market.

Pat

Would you say the punishment fit the crime?

Robby

"The Abyssinians were so meticulous in this regard that when a boy fell from a tree upon his companion and killed him, the judges decided that the bereaved mother should send another of her sons into the tree to fall upon the culprit's neck.

"The penalties assessed might vary with the sex, age and rank of the offender and the injured. Among the Fijians, for example, petty larceny by a common man was considered a more heinous crime than murder by a Chief."

Do any of you here see a comparison between the last sentence and some judgments that have been handed down in our time?

Robby

In your #351 post you mention mediation boards.

For over 10 years I belonged to a county mediation board like the one you described.

We not only had lawers, doctors, nurses, and teachers on the board, but also realtors, landlords, tenants, farmers and even handicapped people like yourself to cover every situation possible.

It was a very successful operation but the lawyers did not like it because it affected their income.

There is an article today in the N. Y.Times concerning the millions of dollars and the hundreds of lawyers involved in the law suits due to the Sept. 11Twin Towers disaster.

Wise mediation would be invaluable in this situation.

Pat

"Primitive punishments are cruel because primitive society feels insecure. As social organization becomes more stable, punishments becme less severe."

Considering Mahlia's comments about the amputation of a hand, Durant would seem to be saying that the Muslim/Arab application of law is primitive.

If I am understanding this correctly, then the goal of revenge and war is peace. Do I have that right?

Robby

1 - Personal revenge
2 - Substitution of damages for revenge
3 - Public contest between the parties
4 - Assumption of obligation by Chief or State.

This is where he ferreted out, from land and sea, the food that was the basis of their simple societies. This is where "woman was making the greatest economic discovery of all -- the bounty of the soil." This is where Man took the three steps that led from the beast to civilization -- speech, agriculture, and writing.

According to Durant, this is where WE originated. This is our ORIENTAL heritage.

Robby

Robby

"Frequently the primitive mind resorted to an ordeal not so much on the medieval theory that a deity would reveal the culprit as in the hope that the ordeal, however unjust, would end a feud that might otherwise embroil the tribe for generations. Sometimes accuser and accused were asked to choose between two bowls of food of which one was poisoned. The wrong party might be poisoned (usually not beyond redemption) but then the dispute was ended, since both parties ordinarily believed in the righteousness of the ordeal.

"Among some tribes it was the custom for a native who acknowledged his guilt to hold out his leg and permit the injured party to pierce it with a spear. Or the accused submitted to having spears thrown at him b his accusers. If they all missed him, he was declared innocent. If he was hit,even by one, he was adjudged guilty and the affair was ended.

"From such early forms the ordeal persisted through the laws of Moses and Hammurabi and down into the Middle Ages. The duel, which is one form of the ordeal, and which historians thought dead, is being revived in our own day. So brief and narrow, in some respects, is the span between primitive and modern man, so short is the history of Civilization."

Robby

What are your thoughts regarding his quote (above) which begins "A stream of children..."?

Commenting on the " green " quotes: Durant says:--"As the basic needs of man are hunger and love, so the fundamental functions of social organization are economic provision and biological maintenance.".. I add power to hunger and love!

Great site Persian....The Birth of the Myth That Men Are Closer to God.

"Since it was the mother who fulfilled most of the parental functions, the family was at first organized on the assumption that the position of the man in the family was superficial and incidental, while that of the woman was fundamental and supreme."... anthropologist Margaret Mead asserted in her studies that women had equal value (power sharing) before her tending to the babes, of the healing herbs and plants led to agriculture...with more 'free" time from their hunting Man had time to "sit and think (plot?).

"I am more and more convinced that Man is a dangerous creature, and that power whether vested in many or a few is ever grasping, and like the grave cries "give, give". The great fish swallow up the small, and he who is most strenuous for the "Rights" of the people, when vested with power, is as eager after the prerogatives of Government. You tell me of degrees of perfection to which Human Nature is capable of arriving, and I believe it, but at the same time lament that our admiration should arise from the scarcity of the instances." (Letter, 1775, from Abigail Adams, 2nd First Lady of United States of America, Prolific Writer, Patriot, Abolitionist, and Early Feminist.)

Further to posts on "revenge"...In England, at Labour's party conference in September, while President Bush continued to vow revenge Mr Blair seemed to be seeking a higher, universal meaning from the Sept 11 tragedy. I, among many now speaking out, hope his quote here is not just rhetoric...

"Out of the shadow of this evil should emerge lasting good: destruction of the machinery of terrorism wherever it is found, hope among all nations of a new beginning where we seek to resolve differences in a calm and ordered way, greater understanding between nations and between faiths, and, above all, justice and prosperity for the poor and dispossessed," he [Blair] said.

Robby

Your #383 post about food and the population explosion caused me to think about growing up during the depression, when my own family consisted of a mother and father and 14 children.

Since then I have travelled all over the world and become aware of the thousands of people who have starved, and are starving all over the world in this century, when food was not available to them.

Throughout this century much of this short supply was caused by many Countries and governing boards, including our own, who were curtailing agricultural production, by paying farmers to keep land out of production, insuring that higher food prices continually prevailed.

I remember well that the over production of potatos during the depression was controlled by bureaucratic boards, who saw that the surplus was made unfit to eat, and marked with a red dye, and milk was dumped to keep the prices up.

Pat

As we move along from civilization to civilization we will come across some interesting beliefs that these various populations held.

Birds care better for their young, and hatch from five to twelve eggs yearly. Mammals, whose very name suggests parental care, master the earth with an average of three young per female per year."

"In some existing tribes, and probably in the earliest human groups the physiological role of the male in reproduction appears to have escaped notice quite as completely as among animals who rut and mate and breed with happy unconsciousness of cause and effect.

"The Trobriand Islanders attribute pregnancy not to any commerce of the sexes but to the entrance of "baloma", or ghost, into the woman. Usually the ghost enters while the woman is bathing. "A fish has bitten me," the girl reports. When asked who was the father of an illegimate child, there was only one answer -- that there was no father, since the girl was unmarried. If it was asked who was the physiological father, the question was not understood.

"In Melanesia intercourse was recognized as the cause of pregnancy, but unmarried girls insisted on blaming some article in their diet. Even where the function of the male was understood, sex relationships were so irregular that it was never a simple matter to determine the father. Consequently the quite primitive mother seldom bothered to inquire into the paternity of her child. It belonged to her, and she belonged, not to her husband but to her father -- or her brother -- and the clan. It was with these that she remained, and these were the only male relatives whom her child would know."

Any comments about this and the quote (above) which begins with "Since it was the mother..."?

Robby

You may find of interest this ARTICLE published this morning which relates to this topic.

Robby

Robby

"All in all the position of woman in early societies was one of subjection verging upon slavery. Her periodic disability, her unfamiliarity with weapons, the biological absorption of her strength in carrying, nursing and rearing children, handicapped her in the war of the sexes, and doomed her to a subordinate status in all but the very lowest and the very highest societies".

pp. 32-33 Our Oriental Heritage by Will Durant.

Scientists seem to have come to the conclusion that civilization advanced the most when the human brain was enlarged from the animal brain.

The belly laugh's on us

So why do we need this midget-size nest of neurons? One brain can do enough damage, after all. Remember the cartoon showing two sponges at the sea floor, wondering what to do next (up on shore, World War III had just roasted the landscape to a glowing cinder). And the yellow sponge said to the brown sponge, "Looks like we'll have to start over... But this time, no brains."

The sponges had a point -- why bother with two brains? Convenience.

The advantage of having a gut brain to take responsibility for things digestive is two-fold: first, it is very close to the structures it must control, allowing what Jackie Wood of Ohio State University calls "second-to-second control." And second, it obviates the need for a thick cable of nerves to link the skull-brain to the gut-brain.

But is it really a brain in the first place?

That depends on what you mean by brain. People tend to use the term rather loosely -- remember the insistence on callin those early room-size computer "electronic brains?"

Seriously, what can the enteric nervous system actually do? At the least, it can evaluate situations based on sensory input, and come up with conclusions about how the digestive tract can best contribute to the animal's survival. That's the kind of processing that nerves in your eye or ear simply can't do.

And the enteric nervous system seems trainable, at least so its champions claim.

In other words, it can learn. Evidence for this strange proposition comes from Hirschsprung's disease, a genetic defect which deprives the last portion of the colon, near the anus, of nerves. And without these nerves, the patient can't defecate. But Wood says that a German surgeon has successfully removed the defective portion of the colon from 300 patients, and attached the adjacent piece of colon to the anus.

This piece of plumbing knows nothing about toilets, having lived its life further upstream, so to speak. But within 18 months, it "learns" to go to the bathroom, indicating that the nerves have "learned" a new job.

Not bad for a "brain" that nobody even recognized 30 years ago.

Pat

Robby

Robby

Robby

For those with the book, we are now beginning Chapter IV (Moral Elements of Civilization). The quotes have changed accordingly.

Robby

Emma, this is a great chapter, and brought back many fond memories of happier days.

Pat

I'm now wondering if part of our survival mechanism as humans is to forget where we've been. I can imagine life would become crushingly meaningless if we could really see that no real progress has been made. What would we do?

Re: reproductive strategies/marriage -- I have heard that as biological mammals, we share the same imperative that all life has to spread our genetic material as far as possible. To this end perhaps, we have come up with ways to sanction the inevitable and to try to control the process for the purpose of inheritance and keeping resources within a family unit., hence marriage Apparently, men, who are able to impregnate females until they die are biologically geared to find the most desirable partners for that purpose -- young, healthy females -- as many as they can. Women, on the other hand, need support and the luxury of time to raise their offspring which necessitates the highest status *alpha* male they can lure -- a proven provider/protector. Romantic love is one of our inventions -- not to disparage it in any way, but it is no more *natural* than other wonderful inventions like literature, art and music. Actually, (and I know Durant covers this in later work), we inherited the notion of romantic love from European courts. Originally it was allegorical, and describing the love of God and man. Bridegroom and Bride. It evolved over time to become a normal expection for our culture. It's actually quite rare, worldwide. Most marriages are expedient and a means to permit a safe practice of sexuality and to strengthen alliances between families. Also, adolescence is an invention. Many cultures still don't have the luxury of supporting capable young people until they finish university, so early marriage is still very common.

All this sounds kind of cold, I know, but maybe the most evolved expressions our love and concern for our spouses and families are a result of invariably outgrowing those romantic ideals and those *hormonal ambitions* and becomes a more abiding familiarity and friendship.

Thanks for listening to my rant.

Pauline

Pauline

IMO there are times when I think it is healthy for both parties to get away from each other.

I wrote this essay last year and Mal published it in her Sonata Electronic Magazine:

The Need To Be Alone Patrick Bruyere

There are times when a person needs to be in a crowd, surrounded by noisy, busy people, and there are times when a person needs to be alone, surrounded by nature's own quiet atmosphere.

My friends are divided into those who crave the solace of stillness, and those who need communication with cantankerous crowds.

Whenever I am trapped into a seemingly endless series of days with friends, and just plain people, panic seizes me, and I long for the privacy of the woods, and the stillness that is available to me in this seclusion.

Here I like to ramble, relax and dream, breathing the fresh air, sorting sounds, coming to friendly terms with birds and squirrels and brooding upon the strange shapes of scattered clouds.

Here I am free to think about life's meanings, and whatever pleases or puzzles me.Here I really learn how little I really need in order to be happy.

Every smell and noise and breeze and stirring of thought lightly echoes, and adds to the total of me, and all I have ever acquired in the way of learning and knowledge.

To live a fruitful and interesting life, I believe that our thoughts must wander up and down, to and fro. Such thoughts require space and freedom from impact.

People who like to be alone are always people who like to think. Thoughts require room to explode, bounce around, or lie dormant, if necessary.>p>

Thinkers, therefore, instinctively avoid a crowd, and secede into secret seclusion whenever conditions permit.

When I am in the solitude of the woods, I like to think.

Alone, but not lonely, I postulate philosophies, explore my soul, and in the midst of wilderness, listening to the large soft silence, expose my likes and angers, wishes and disappointments,

I examine each, and put it in its place.

Alone, I redefine my appreciation of the people with whom I live.

At times I need only a few hours; at other times I need a few days withdrawal1o restore myself to the point where I am smothered with seclusion and silence,

Then I am ready to return to the hubbub of family and busy people, where I can easily slide back into the ordinary rhythm of my life.

Aloneness is a means, a method to meditation and results in three paradoxes.

The first is that a person who truly wishes to find himself must lose himself.

Secondly, the person who is truly alone, is also most fully with others.

Finally, when a thinker stops asking questions, the answer most properly comes, while he is alone, in communion with the Source of all Creation.

It is in our reflections during these moments that we discover the meaning of our physical existence, the root of our spiritual life, and the necessity of amplifying our meditation and prayer life.

Pat

In reply to your post #425 concerning the treatment of Kaliban prisoners in Afganistan

Civilization in modern warfare still contains the cruelties it did in Medieval Times

Even though the German Army had agreed to abide by the Rules of the Geneva Convention regarding the treatment of prisoners,during WW2, there were many times when these Rules were disregarded. These Rules have been disregarded in every war.

During the Battle of the Bulge in WW2 fifty members of my unit were taken prisoner and shot at Malmedy.

During the Battle for Mount Rotundo in Italy American Soldiers, taken prisoner from my unit were used as shields and were killed in the crossfire between both sides.

So goes survival techniques in modern civilization.

Pat

"Man differs from the beast only by education, which may be defined as the technique of transmitting civilization."

Sometimes I am amazed at the wisdom and education you have acquired, in spite of the fact that you were afflicted with polio when you were still a child.

The school of hard knocks you graduated from has made you one of the best editors I ever met, and given you an education that makes you the perfect advisor for not only physically handicapped people, but the many people you serve in your electronic publications.

You have helped many beginning authors and poets, as well as been an excellent advisor for numerous people with Master and Doctorate Degrees.

You are a perfect example of what every human, with the physical and mental abilities they were endowed with, could do to advance civilization.

Pat

"This primitive "nationalization of women," corresponding to primitive communism of land and food, passed away at so early a stage that few traces of it remain. Some memory of it, however, lingered on in divers forms -- in the feeling of many nature peoples that monogamy -- which they would define as the monopoly of a woman by one man -- is unnatural and immoral -- in periodic festivals of license (still surviving faintly in our Mardi Gras), when sexual restraints were temporarily abandoned -- in the demand that a woman should give herself -- as at the Temple of Mylitta in Babylon -- to any man that solicited her, before she would be allowed to marry -- in the custom of wife-lending, so essential to many primitive codes of hospitality -- and in the jus prima noctis, or right of the first night, by which, in early feudal Europe, the lord of the manor, perhaps representing the ancient rights of the tribe, occasionally deflowered the bride before the bridgroom was allowed to consummate the marriage."

What is moral? What is immoral? What is amoral? What is meant by "civilized?" Is there such a thing as an "uncivilized civilization?" Are we saying that "our" customs and morals are the only way? the proper way? Do we have the right to judge other forms of civilization? On what basis?

Robby

Robby

Robby

PATRICK Really enjoyed your post on solitude. That was the very reason I moved to such a quiet place. It is the height of luxury for me to have the time and solitude to just think, after so many years of being around people all the time. I agree with you that solitude is the well we draw from to bring us to a greater appreciation of the people in our lives. My ex- sister-in-law once said to me, "You are better at being alone than anyone I know". I took it as a compliment, like a true introvert! I've heard that in Asian countries, for example, being alone is considered unhealthy. One can't do anything unaccompanied because it is assumed that company is always necessary and desirable.

I guess, IMO morality is all too relative. For example, when we decide killing is wrong, there's always an exception -- cases that demand it. Thank goodness I've never had to make a horrible choice between the safety of myself and those I love or taking the life of another. As someone so succintly said in an earlier post (forgive me for forgetting who), "Civilization is messy". To be healthy, it's never easy, and always adapting and changing. I'm grateful that the hardest moral issues are not black and white, and constantly undergoing debate and revision. Civilization requires the concensus of like-minded people -- a large tribe.

An example is polygamy. Contrary to our prevalent idea, polygamy as practiced by tribal societies was initially a social safety net. If a woman was left alone and without support, it was considered an act of charity to bring her (and her children) under the protection of a family by marrying her. She may have been the bride's older, widowed sister, and therefore not the sexual whim of the husband. Because we now have an infrastructure in place to provide the basic necessities for such women, we no longer need that solution. In societies where men are constantly at war and the male infant mortality rate is high, the number of women is greater. In the absence of birth control (or by it's prohibition), they end up adopting practices like female infanticide or polygamy. In case we think this is only practiced in other *primative* societies, just consider how with modern technology many couples are able to predetermine what sex their unborn child is and to select only a male child by aborting the female embryo. This is apparently really common here in North America.

In our culture, we have normalized pornography and pedophilia. Just open any magazine. I saw an ad on tv for nivea body lotion with a girl that looked 12 yrs old posing in a sexually provocative way. Imagine the impact this has. It's heartbreaking. So we certainly have no monopoly on morality. Most people don't even notice this stuff, we've become so mesmerized. When I get in these moods, I wonder if we need to backtrack and rethink certain of our *freedoms*.

Incidentally, I certainly did not intend to imply in my previous post, a reductionistic view of men and women as Don Juans and Golddiggers, but certainly both impulses are alive and well in our culture.

Pauline

Pauline

I assume you know from the quotes in the posting that Durant said that; I didn't.

Pauline (Citrus Cat):--I don't know the answer to the link taking you to a NY Times registration form rather than directly to the article. Others here have been taken directly to the article. If your software insists on that, perhaps the only answer is to register (which is free).

Peter says:--"When we talk about the problems of today, the drug culture,the culture of violence, the anarchy that reigns in many of our larger cities, that makes many of our generation afraid to walk the streets at night, we say, "why should this be so"

Which specific nations are you referring to? Let us remind ourselves (especially those of us who were active in Democracy in America), that in this current forum which covers the wide spectrum of Civilization, that we are covering the entire planet. Is what you are saying applicable to all nations? Western civilization? Eastern civilization? Near East? Far East? Africa? Exactly where?

Concerning your #450 post about registering, if you register you will get a daily bulletin from the NY Times covering all the news as it happens.

This is a good way to start the day!

Pat

"1 - Among the Orang Salai of Malacca, a girl remained for a time with each man of the tribe, passing from one to another until she had made the rounds. Then she began again.
2 - Among the Yakuts of Siberia, the Botocudos of South Africa, the lower classes of Tibet, and many other peoples, marriage was quite experimental, and could be ended at the will of either party, with no reasons given or required.
3 - Among the Bushmen "any disagreement sufficed to end a union, and new connections could immediately be found for both."
4 - Among the Damaras, according to Sir Francis Galton, 'the spouse was changed almost weekly, and I seldom knew without inquiry who the pro tempore husband of each lady was at any particular time."
5 - Among the Baila 'woman are bandied about from man to man, and of their own accord leave one husband for another. Young women scarcely out of their teens often have had four or five husbands, all still living. The original word for marriage , in Hawaii, meant to try.
6 - Among the Tahitians, a century ago, unions were free and dissoluble at will, so long as there were no children. If a child came, the parents might destroy it without social reproach, or the couple might rear the child and enter into a more permanent relation. The man pledged his support to the woman in return for the buden of parental care that she now assumed."

Any further answers to the questions in red a few postings ago?

Does Mankind move through cycles? Is there such a thing as "next?" Is there such a thing as "staying this way?"

Robby

Pauline

Another friend, "Smoky", was a Native American Indian from a nearby Mohawk Reservation.

Jake, Smoky and I enlisted in the Army after Pearl Harbor and we took basic training together.

Jake was killed at Kasserine Pass in Africa, and Smoky died in the Battle of the Bulge in France.

However, during basic training, we realized that there was much racial discrimination and intolerance prevalent throughout some areas of the country, as some of our fellow recruits demonstrated this.

Being of French descent, I was labelled as "a frog", Jake was jewish, so he was "a kike ". An Italian was "a wop", a German was "a kraut", an Indian was a "Geronimo", a Mexican was a "spick" if he was from the north and a "greaser" if he was from the south.and there were other labels for other races and nationalities.

WW2 became the great melting pot, and while fighting collectively through Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany and Austria against a common enemy, protecting each other's backs, we realized that the holocaust was caused by us all, and we developed a close brotherly relationship   despite our different origins.

Pat

And although Pat did not say so in "so many words," what he implied was that we all used those terms in a most comradely way with no hate involved.

How can this be? And why isn't that happening among the tribes in Afghanistan?

Here we are discussing the gradual development of Civilization originating in the Near East. Why were they killing each other in ancient times? Why are they killing each other now? And why aren't we doing the same here in the Western Civilization?

Robby

good post.



Tiger Tom

We are approaching the 500th posting and, because new participants have been regularly entering this past week and might not have read the First Posting, I am re-printing it as it sets the tone for the discussion.

WELCOME TO ALL! Please consider the following:

We are the product of those who came before us -- our parents, our ancestors of long ago, even primitive man. Our behaviors, our beliefs, and our physicial appearances have been handed down to us in an unbroken line. Everything develops from something else - either genetically or environmentally or both.

Communication -- transportation -- the struggle for survival -- all existed at the dawn of history and even before. The methods changed ever so gradually over the millennia and eons but the inherent needs remain.

In this, his first of 11 volumes, Will Durant wrote; "I wish to tell as much as I can, in as little space as I can, of the contributions that genius and labor have made to the cultural heritage of mankind." He adds, in observing the Orient which he sees as the scene of the primordial stew: "At this historic moment when the ascendancy of Europe is so rapidly coming to an end, when Asia is swellng with resurrected life, and the theme of the twentieth century seems destined to be an all-embracing conflict between the East and the West ... the future faces into the Pacific, and understanding must follow it there." And he wrote that in 1932!!

And then he asks this penetrating question: "How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient?" In order to simultaneously challenge and yet depress us, he answers his own question -- "Not even a lifetime of devoted scholarship would suffice to initiate a Western student into the subtle character and secret lore of the East."

Are we, therefore, about to engage in a useless exercise? Or are we in fact becoming part of that unbroken line wherein we help to pass on to our descendants of tomorrow or 5,000 years from now our own behaviors, beliefs, and appearances. We read today's comments of those who live in the Near and Far East, we learn of new dangers taking place in our homeland being caused by those living on the other side of the earth, and day by day we become more acutely aware of our cultural differences.

How can it be that a culture so different from ours was, in effect, the creator of all that we in the West now are? Let us plunge into a discussion that may change our thinking forever!! Perhaps plunge is not the proper approach. Let us dip our toes in ve-e-ery slo-o-o-ow - ly for two reasons.

1) Almost every remark of Durant is meaty. It can be so easy to move rapidly past comments relevant to our discussion, and 2) Each civilization is a complete topic unto itself. Even the first topic (prehistoric man) has much to tell us about ourselves.

Durant states that four elements constitute civilization:

1 - Economic provision (our first sub-topic) 2 - Political organization 3 - Moral traditions 4 - Pursuit of knowledge and the arts

Following Durant's line of progression, our first sub-topic, as indicated above, is "The Economic Elements of Civilization." Just below the dividing line in the Heading above are quotations which will be periodically changed. This is to help those participants here who have not yet obtained the book as well as helping us to stay together on a particular sub-topic. Volume One is eminently readable and the temptation is to post on comments made later in the book. I urge everyone here to stay together. It will be especially tempting to move ahead to the "civilized" societies. Primitive man, however, did much to create our society of today. Let us not ignore him.

We are a lively group. There will be much disagreement and so it should be among thinking people. However, we will follow the usual Senior Net policy, i.e. all disagreement will be done in an agreeable way.

I ask, also, that you pause regularly to admire our Heading here. Marjorie, who created the beautiful Heading that had been used with the discussion group, "Democracy in America," kindly consented to use her artistic and technical talents to create our attractive Heading above. I thank her profusely for this. A beautiful Heading is like a beautiful cover to a book. It sometimes determines whether the book is opened or not.

Let us, therefore, start with Durant's comment: He says: "In one important sense, the 'savage,' too, is civilized, for he carefully transmits to his children the heritage of the tribe."

We begin, as Durant did, with Economic Elements as expressed by primitive man.

Do you agree with him that man became human when he began the domestication of animals, the breeding of cattle, and the use of milk? Are you in agreement that while man was hunting, woman was making the greatest economic discovery of all -- the bounty of the soil? Do you see a relationship between economics and primitive man providing for the future? Where does the use of fire come in? How about the development of tools? What has primitive man done to move us onto where we are today?

Be sure to click onto the "Subscribe" button and now -- YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE?

Robby

The tribe not only exists, as such, in many areas around the globe but perhaps more importantly, exists deep within each of us who claim to be "civilized." In getting to know tribal customs, conventions, and morals, we therefore are, in effect, looking deep within ourselves and bit by bit beginning to understand why we think as we think and do as we do.

In examining the current sub-topic, "Sexual Morality," we learn, with Durant's help, how Primitive Man approached this subject and simultaneously look at our own approach toward this subject which continues to be a "hot" topic in both the Western and Eastern cultures. For example, what is your attitude toward prostitution which Durant (in the quote above) says "arises only with civilization?"

"What the primitive maiden dreaded was not the loss of virginity, but a reputation for sterility. Premarital pregnancy was, more often than not, an aid rather than a handicap in finding a husband, for it settled all doubts of sterility, and promised profitable children.

"The simpler tribes, before the coming of property, seemed to have held virginity in contempt, as indicating unpopularity."

Your reactions, please?

Robby

Depends. In some Amazon societies, at one time, a woman might meet a successful hunter in the woods, have sex with him for a decent cut of the game he had killed. the woman wasn't a prostitute because she only did this with the one very successful hunter and only on occasion. Prostitution, yes, because she was exchanging sex for a reward. So yes, I believe that man has had Prostitution throughout his history, but perhaps not Prostitutes (women who do this as a living.)

Tiger Tom

Sorry to post so many posts in a row.

Linda

"The men never thought of applying the same restrictions to themselves. No society in history has ever insisted on the premarital chastity of the male. No language has ever had a word for a virgin man. The aura of virginity was kept exclusively for daughters, and pressed upon them in a thousand ways.

"The Tuaregs punished the irregularity of a daughter or a sister with death. The Negroes of Nubia, Abyssinia, Somaliland, etc., practised upon their daughters the cruel art of infibulation - ie, the attachment of a ring or lock to the genitals to prevent copulation. In Burma and Siam a similar practice survives to our own day.

"Forms of seclusion arose by which girls were kept from providing or receiving temptation. In New Britain the richer parents confined their daughters, through five dangerous years, in huts guarded by virtuous old crones. The girls were never allowed to come out, and only their relatives could see them. Some tribes in Borneo kept their unmarried girls in solitary confinement.

"From these primitive customs to the purdah of the Moslems and the Hindus is but a step, and indicates again how nearly "civilization" touches "savgery."

It would be easy for any of us from the vantage point of our own "advanced" Western civilization to chastise them and accuse them of double standard, inhuman punishment, and other "crimes" as seen from our perspective. I ask, however, that we all back off, take a very objective view of the progress of Mankind over thousands and thousands and thousands of years and ask why such practices existed. And please note -- these tribes were scattered all over this planet. Many of them did not even know the other cultures existed.

Why then the similarity in their approach to the treatment of young women? Did it have anything to do with the continuation of the specie? Does Mother Nature know something that we small organisms do not yet understand? Did these "primitives" understand something subjectively that they did not know on a conscious level of awareness?

Robby

"In general, throughout history, men have wanted many children and therefore have called motherhood sacred; while women, who know more about reproduction, have secretly rebelled against this heavy assignment, and have used an endless variety of means to reduce the burdens of maternity. It is the woman who invents abortion, infanticide and contraception -- for even the last occurs, sporadically, among primitive peoples.

"It is astonishing to find how similar are the motives of the "savage" to the "civilized" woman in preventing birth -- to escape the burden of rearing offspring, to preserve a youthful figure, to avert the disgrace of extramarital motherhood, to avoid death, etc. The simplest means of reducing maternity was the refusal of the man by the woman during the period of nursing, which might be prolonged for many years."

Again, the question arises here, as it does so often - are we that different from the savage? Are our origins showng?

Robby

Do others here feel this way? As we step back and observe the progress toward civilization, how should we define the term "new?" What do we mean by "slipping?"

Do you folks here believe that the majority of people in today's so-called civilization, both men and women, while thinking of or engaging in sex, have such thoughts in their mind?

Robby

Robby

Page 44. "In general, the 'savage' takes his sex philosophically......He makes no pretense to idealistic motives.....Marriage is never a sacrament with him, and seldom an affair of lavish ceremony; it is frankly a commercial transaction.....she (the woman) was to be an economic asset.....Wherever in the history of civilization, woman has ceased to be an economic asset in marriage, marriage has decayed, and sometimes civilization has decayed with it."

This "inability or unwillingness" has apparently existed for thousands and thousands of year in almost all civilizations. I am wondering what causes the women to be not so much unable as unwilling. These were obviously not isolated cases but were the trend both in pre-historic and historic times.

Is it unfair to compare the every-day life of the "average" person in Afghanistan with Primitve Man? Click onto THE AVERAGE AFGHAN and share your thoughts.

Mal says: "I think it is extremely difficult to change our 21st century mindset to a primitive one."As you listen to the comments and watch the behavior or the Afghans mentioned in this article, what do you think?

Robby

Robby

"The rules of courtesy were as complex in most simple peoples as in adanced nations. Each group had formal modes of salutation and farewell. Two individuals, on meeting, rubbed noses, or smelled each other, or gently bit each others. As we have seen, they never kissed. Some crude tribes were more polite than the modern average. The Dyak head-hunters, we are told, were "gentle and peaceful" in their home life, and the Indians of Central America considered the loud talking and brusque behavior of the white man as signs of poor breeding and a primitve culture."

Those are powerful statements! Do you folks believe that in the present day women are responsible for the continuation of civilization, country and family? If you believe this to be so and, considering the "abdication" of many women from family responsibility (at least in Western civilization), is there a possibilty that civilization is slowly "dying?"

"1- TRADE began in PIRACY.
2 - TRADE culminates in MORALITY."

In international relations should we rely more on international corporations than on the diplomats in the State Department?

Robby

Robby

"There is a need of religious fear and this cannot be aroused without myths and marvels. For thunderbolt, aegis, trident, torches, snakes, thyrus-lances -- arms of the gods -- are myths, and so is the entire ancient theology.

"But the founders of states gave their sanction to these things as bugbears wherewith to scare the simple-minded. Morals, then, are soon endowed with religious sanctions, because mystery and supernaturalism lend a weight. Men are more easily ruled by imagination than by science.

"But was this moral utility the scource or origin of religion?"

Durant asks the question. What is our answer?

Robby

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

While driving in Pennsylvania, a family caught up to an Amish carriage. The owner of the carriage obviously had a sense of humor, because attached to the back of the carriage was a hand printed sign... Energy efficient vehicle. Runs on oats and grass. Caution: Do not step in exhaust.

A Sunday School teacher began her lesson with a question "Boys and girls, what do we know about God?" A hand shot up in the air. "He is an artist!" said the kindergarten boy. "Really? How do you know?" the teacher asked."You know - Our Father, who does art in Heaven... "

A minister waited in line to have his car filled with gas just before a long holiday weekend. The attendant worked quickly, but there were many cars ahead of him in front of the service station. Finally, the attendant motioned him toward a vacant pump. "Reverend," said the young man, sorry about the delay. It seems as if everyone waits until the last minute to get ready for a long trip. The minister chuckled, "I know what you mean. It's the same in my business."

People want the front of the bus, back of the church and center of attention.

Somebody once figured out that we have 35 million laws trying to enforce 10 commandments.

Somebody has well said that there are only two kinds of people in the world, there are those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good morning, Lord," and there are those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good Lord, it's morning."

A minister parked his car in a no -- parking zone in a large city because he was short of time and couldn't find a space with a meter. So he put a note under the windshield wiper that read: I have circled the block 10 times.If I don't park here, I'll miss my appointment. FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES.

When he returned, he found a citation from a police officer along with this note. I've circled this block for 10 years. If I don't give you a ticket, I'll lose my job. LEAD US NOT INTO TEMPTATION.

A father was approached by his small son, who told him proudly, "I know what the Bible means!" His father smiled and replied, "What do you mean, you 'know' what the Bible means?" The son replied, "I do know!" "Okay," said his father. "So, Son, what does the Bible mean?" That's easy, Daddy. It stands for "Basic Information Before Leaving Earth." Pat

What is the clergyman really saying when he says: "I know, everyone waits until the last minute to get ready for a long trip." Why do some folks want to sit in the back of the church? Why do many people who attend church refuse to give money toward the building program?

Are these jokes telling us in a subtle way the attitude many people have toward religion? Is hypocrisy in the picture? And is it possible that the practice of religion of Primitive Man was "purer" than many of today's practices?

That is just fine, Peter. You will find that, using the quotations above in GREEN which are periodically changed, you will be moving right along with those who have the book. We appreciate your regular postings.

Robby

There have been many posts in this forum concerning the earth's population explosion in this century, in relation to the existing food supply available now, compared to that of the early civilizations that Durant was describing.

This led me to do some research on the existing population explosion, and I discovered that the earth's population had increased from a quarter billion people at the time of the Roman Empire, to over six billion people at the present time, with 77 million people being added yearly.

This is occurring even though we now have so many modern birth control methods available, and is a result of religious, national and cultural objections.

If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, would look something like the following:

There would be: 57 Asians 21 Europeans 14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south 8 Africans 52 would be female 48 would be male 70 would be non-white 30 would be white 70 would be non-Christian 30 would be Christian 89 would be heterosexual 11 would be homosexual 6 people would possess 59% of the entire world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States. 80 would live in substandard housing 70 would be unable to read 50 would suffer from malnutrition 1 would be near death; 1 would be near birth 1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education 1 would own a computer.

When one considers our world from such a compressed perspective, the need for acceptance, understanding and education becomes glaringly apparent.

The following is also something to ponder... If you woke up this morning with more health than illness...you are more blessed than the million who will not survive this week.

If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of starvation ...you are ahead of 500 million people in the world.

If you can attend a church meeting without fear of harassment, arrest, torture, or death...you are more blessed than three billion people in the world.

If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof overhead and a place to sleep...you are richer than 75% of this world.

  If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy.

  If your parents are still alive and still married ... you are very rare, even in the United States and Canada.

If you can read this message, you just received a double blessing in that someone was thinking of you on this Thanksgiving Day, and furthermore, you are more blessed than over two billion people in the world that cannot read at all, some who will go hungry tonight.

Pat

Pat Hyne

Good to see you have decided to "get your feet wet" in this discussion and thank you for your many thought-provoking examples.

Mal:--

You have a terrific imagination regarding how Primitive Man might have celebrated Thanksgiving (or a similar ritual) and maybe your examples are closer to the truth than one would believe.

Anyone else here with examples relating to the quote above which begins with "The objects of religious worship...?"

Pat

Re: animism and such: Many of the objects found from the neolithic era have been female figures carved from stone or ivory. These *venuses* seem to indicate that women were held in awe and fear, not only because they gave birth (remember no one knew how reproduction occurred for awhile), but because their menstrual cycles coincided with the phases of the moon. The first gods were actually goddesses. I guess it was a natural parallel between the way a mother nutured her child and the earth's nurturing of the tribe, therefore the earth must be a woman. It follows that the earth's creatures are all her children and are holy. There are caves everywhere that are thought to be former ritual chambers, where the participants were *reborn* by emerging after a period of initiation in the darkness, imitating gestation (and the changing seasons).

Males were consorts before they were gods. It must have seemed logical to early man that if women gave their blood to the earth and were rewarded with fertility, then fertility of crops and animals could be ensured with a blood sacrifice, and this is evident in many subsequent texts. In most cases, this was a man (or an animal) who gave his life for the good of all (sound familiar? ie, sacrificial Lamb).

Even as Christianity is currently practiced in some places in the world, the Mother of God is revered as much as God Himself. The Isis and Osirus myth sprang from this idea and was the progenitor of the Madonna and Child. The death of the undying Son.

Anyway, I sincerely hope I haven't offended anyone by these musings (guess it can't be helped if I have). I'm really fascinated by how religion developed.

Pauline

Which is exactly what we (along with Durant) are trying to learn at this particular moment. We are not "pushing" any specific belief in this forum but trying to answer one of the questions in the Heading, ie "What Are Our Origins?"

The religion that some of us follow did not suddenly materialize out of thin air. There was something preceding it and something preceding that, and so on. Durant wrote the entire eleven volume set with the thought in mind that everything leads to something else. There is a definite continuity in his writings. If it weren't for his death, he'd have gone past his final volume, "Rousseau and Revolution."

His point was that if our oriental heritage became more understandable to us, that would help us to better understand the following era which he wrote about in his second volume, "The Life of Greece," and so on to the present day.

As we continue to walk beside Durant through the various civilizations, we will be better able to understand the development of the various religions.

How do you folks react to his quote above which begins with "There is hardly any superstition...?"

Robby

The human brain that gradually developed from the animal brain during the long evolutionary process now encompasses a consciousness and a conscience, and is able to think and take responsibility for it's own actions, unlike the animal brain or the internet.

IMO There are various "cyberagents" and "spiders" in the net that are able to process and digest information, but their functionality is much narrower than that of the human brain, where, unlike the functioning of the animal or computer brain, our actions are controlled by the lobes forming consciousness awareness and conscience in the human brain, and developed during the long evolutinary process of Civilization.

Pat

"Nearly all ancient peoples worshiped sex in some form and ritual, and not the lowest people but the highest expressed their worship most completely."

Anything like that going on these days?

Robby

Welcome to our family!! Your quote of Abigail Adams is certainly apropos to this discussion where the importance of our ancestors is emphasized.

Looking forward to having you visit us again.

I'm sure early man was very motivated by fear. As Robby quoted Durant, *he could see only the externals involved and deified them.* Imagine not having even the most rudimentary scientific knowlege about the universe, and living in a world of earthquakes, floods, famine, unexplained illness and death. It would seem that Deity was both creator and destroyer. Talk about ambivalence! Goddesses later appeared in double-aspect of life-giving and death-dealing. Examples are Sumarian Innana and Erishkagil, Greek Demeter and Hecate, Hindu Parvati and Kali. We have also heard *The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away* (is this from the book of Job?) Anyway, I suppose we all attempt to hedge our bets against uncertainy by means of ritual or petitionary prayer. Somehow, if we follow the correct formula, we could influence that Ineffible Power to change our lot.

Supersition is just that, IMO. The notion that we are influenced by, and can influence unseen powers. We can ward off misfortune or bring good luck. I never fail to pick up a penny or to throw spilled salt over my left shoulder!!! (and presumably I'm a rational being --lol). The desolation that we might feel to know that the world just does what it does with or without our intervention is too great to contemplate, for the most part. (I find it oddly comforting, but then again, I'm a little odd myself).

Pauline

Unsure of our own abilities to avert or solve problems we pray to a higher power for consolation in times of stress, fear, and hunger.

To make our requests more profound and effective we confide in a shaman, witch doctor, minister or priest as an intermediary between us and that higher power, to present our requests.

Primed from childhood with rote expressions and time worn stories, coaxed on by an unenlightened leader, the peoplesimply follow.

Humans need to look within themselves to find God, for a clear understanding of life is only found in clear perception of the human mind, and it's relation to reality.

Pat

Robby

About the early beliefs and cannibalism, I read by chance today an article of what happened in 1958 near Stanleyville, on the shore of the river Congo. A witness there tells of many policemen taking prisoners to the train station, carrying huge cooking pots. Those pots contained human flesh. The next day one could read in the local paper: the cannibals arrested were part of a sect known as the "crocodiles-men". They believed that if they ate what the crocs in the river enjoyed, they would gain the same strength. The god croco would protect them when they sailed, swam or fished there.
That happened not so long ago.
Bubble

Magic is made of ritual acts, offering, incantations, talismans, anything that could be a help in the world of unknown.

Magic is different from religion because it is usually practised through a witch doctor. This person supposedly has the power to intercede with the Gods, declaring himself to have supernatural powers when in truth he relies on credulity, superstition and rites passed on or made up to fit the circumstances.

It is still found in many places in the world, even practised in parallel with the big monotheistic religions. Some practices have even been incorporated in those religions.
Bubble

As for Mal's comment about whether the dawn of civilization was in Africa or not, Durant emphasizes in many places as he moves along that while Egypt is technically in Africa, its history was allied more with Near Eastern civilizations than with other parts of Africa, due partly to natural barriers such as the desert or the cascades in the upper Nile.

We move along in this forum taking the same route that Durant does, page by page, in his book. When we get to the point of discussing Egypt, Bubble (and others here) may have some enlightening remarks to give us.

Any examples of that from anyone here? And of course, any comments will be given in a neutral manner without denigrating any religion different from our own.

Robby

Robby

ROBBY Great post. I wonder if the more contact we' ve had with INDIVIDUALS from those monolithic groups, the more we see that it's impossible to classify ourselves that way. I feel so blessed and enriched to have been able to count among my friends people from everywhere on the globe, and have shared ideas, support and laughter with them.

I love my country and culture (Canada). At the same time, I'm not always sure what it means to be Canadian, and I certainly don't agree with all of the ideals espoused by *Western Civilization*, nontheless, I prefer this place -- it's my home, for all it's faults (including too much winter!). Canada certainly isn't monolithic. Ask anyone who lives here. Identity varies from region to region and with culture. Still we can say we're Canadians. I guess I believe I can assume the same is true with individuals from any other large population.

On a different note, I noticed that many many posts back, Mal gave a *disclaimer* which I second; that is, the opinions, observations and explorations I express here are specific to the subject matter and are not necessarily reflective of my personal beliefs, and no assumptions about my beliefs should be drawn from my posts. I regard this discussion as a way for me to learn more and to have a forum where I am free to reflect on the issues that are raised. I am grateful to you all for allowing this, and will extend the same courtesy to all

Magic. The first thought that comes to mind is the stock market! It's practice is alive and well on Wall St. or Bay St. If ever there was a modern situation that embodies the shamanistic world view, this is it. Our brokers and financial experts are witch doctors who pretend to have the inside scoop and we glady hand responsiblity over to them and their superior knowlege. Despite the fact it has been know for years that it's gambling, and no one can predict how the market will behave with any accuracy. People have always been trying to come up with explanations and rationales for it and it just does what it does. Some win, some lose.

Thinking of the Masai and other tribal cultures -- they have often much to teach *Western Civilization* in terms of remembering our close connection to others. There are times when I envy the web of belonging and responsibility to and for one's kin and neighbour. Also just having time for tea and conversation any time of the day. The natural, human-friendly rhythm of daily life.

Pauline M. Fougere

Well said! That is exactly what we are.

Robby

Linda, I don't recall your saying anything "inappropriate" nor do I recall any participant here saying you had done so. Please continue to post as you have been doing. Your comments are valued.

Robby

So please know that I wasn't referring to anyone in particular. I just realized that I was really spouting off here and wanted to clarify these things. I have enjoyed your posts very much, Linda.

Pauline

Robby

Pauline

What I find fascinating in this first volume -- long before we get to any of the other volumes -- is the fact that most of us think these are OUR customs and would be told by many of our neighbors that we were "nuts" if we said we are doing the same thing as Pre-historic Man, much less the first "civilizations."

Mal says:--"It seems to me that all religions as I know them have symbolic rituals."

I agree with this. I can't think of a single religion that doesn't have symbolism of some sort. Durant says that "magic is the soul of primitive ritual."

Is our present-day ritual "magic" of a sort?

Robby

And please remember, folks, that as Discussion Leader, I believe I can do a better job by reading way ahead of you and keeping the forum properly organized. So I do this by marking the text with my trusty red pen, using slips of paper as markers, etc., and not trying to move the book around.

Mal, please let Mary W know that even before her paper-back version arrives, the GREEN quotes above which are periodically changed can keep her abreast of all of us.

Robby

"Poetry embroidered magic, and transformed it into theology. Solar myths mingled harmoniously with vegetarian rites, and the legend of a god dying and reborn came to apply not only to the winter death and spring revival of the earth but to the autumnal and vernal equinoxes, and the waning and eaxing of the day. The coming of night was merely a part of this tragic drama. Daily the sun-god was born and died. Every sunset was crucifixion, and every sunrise was a resurrection."

Anything of that sort these days?

What are rites?
They are a ritual used to convey a certain meaning.
The word rite comes from the Latin "ritus" or the sanskrit "RTA" which has the meaning of an unknown power of cosmic or mental origin.

There are rites of purification: for Moslems when they wash hands and feet before praying, the baptism for the Christians to wash away the original sin. There are rites of initiation at puberty, marriage and funerals. They are like a crossroad between personal belief and social culture and sometime become part of the local folklore, no matter in which religion.

The most important rites concern food, which is normal since it is such an essential part of life. In Islam and Judaism, impure food is forbidden, no pork. In Hinduism, life is so sacred that only vegetal food is allowed. This is linked of course with the belief of reincarnation into an animal of the less worthy in present life.

Cannibalism is linked with the food rituals since many believed they would then acquire the virtues of the deceased, be it friend or foe.

Food can be used for sacrifice or blessing: in Bali women bring daily platters of fruit and produces to the temple. In Christianity the last Cene with the apostles has taken a particular significance with the consecration of bread and wine.

Bread and salt have also been used as greeting or welcoming rites to newcomers.
Bubble

She says that the reason my plants wither and die young is because of my brusque voice and manner towards my plants.

The power of suggestion as applied by hypnotists, sorcerers, witch doctors, shamans and ministers acts like a placebo, and can alter the functioning of the body to provide healing and cure illness.

The same power of suggestion, used in the voodoo ritual and applied as a curse by sorcerers and witchdoctors, can cause illness and death to the affected victims.

Mal: Your mention of the cow's blood and milk consumed among some of the existing tribes in Africa made me hunger for one of the the modern delicacies available to French Canadians in Quebec Province.

The recipe for this gourmet dish comes from France and is called "boudin" It is made from the boiled blood of a freshly butchered cow, mixed with cubed chunks of fat pork and highly seasoned with spices. I am sure that Pauline and Eloise have enjoyed this tasty food, originated by some of the best chefs in Paris Mal: In regard to your previous post about that Thanksgiving post I sent to this forum yesterday, I got a lot of responses.

Much of that information came from a holiday e-mail I received and saved from 2 years ago, during the gull war. I found it so profound and pertinent to the present precarious world situation it became the catalysis to update the numerical statistics from the year 2000 data to search links for data for the year 2001, with very little change.

Pat

Robby

Rob, very often it is "scratch the surface and you will find the primitive man" don't you thinK? Maybe your varnish coat is thicker? lol

Bubble

It makes one to think. Here we are examining the "progress" of Mankind toward civilization from the time when Primitive Man was little more than an "animal" and "knew almost nothing" to our time where we are "very knowledgeable."

I look at Voltaire's quotation in the Heading and, as I said, it makes one to think.

I agree that this book is a real clunker in size -- I wouldn't want to fall asleep with it on my face (especially with my glasses on!).

I'm not familiar with Carnivale or Mardi Gras (except for what I've seen on tv etc), but I am familiar with Shrove Tuesday, or Pancake Day. Instead of a wild party, we used to have pancakes with little items tucked in -- dimes for prosperity, buttons for bachelorhood, rings for marriage etc. cooked into them. (It's a miracle no one choked) Anyone else remember this? I wonder since it precedes the 40 days of Lent, maybe this was everyone's opportunity to get all the mischief out of their system before confession and the long penitential period ahead.

Also, I have been thinking about the function of masks, which seems to be part of the Feast of Promiscuity. And masks in general as they were used by indigenous people. They were symbolic of the spirits to whom the ceremonies were addressed. Masks or face-painting allow an individual to assume another identity or to conceal their own. In that way, it permits one to forfiet accountability for their actions because it isn't really them. I think it was believed that they were, in some cases, literally *possessed* by a spirit. How convenient!

I agree with Patick that belief is very powerful. It amazes me how the body/mind/spirit are linked so closely. We can literally think ourselves better or worse. The symbols focus our minds and are a shorthand for our beliefs, maybe. I was brought up in the Anglican church (Episcopalian in the US) but my father was a non-practicing Catholic. We were taught that rites or sacraments were *the outward sign of an inward Grace*

Pauline

As we gradually leave Primitive Man and enter the earlier civilizations, we may find that money, trade, economics, profit, etc. was also their gods.

Robby

Justin says:--"Perhaps religion has always held civilization back. I can not think of a single instance in which religion has fostered growth in society."

As we get into the various civilizations, Durant will help us to see the great power that religion wielded and the various results. Whether this could be considered "growth" we can all bandy around and examine.

Linda says:--"Religion seems to be the need man has and it helps make sense of life and gives meaning and solace in suffering."

Could that be considered growth?

"So the Greeks learned to abhor incest while their mythologies still honored incestuous gods. The Christians practiced monogamy while their Bible legalized polygamy. Slavery was abolished while dominies sanctified it with unimpeachable Biblical authority. And in our own day the Church fights heroically for a moral code that the Industrial Revolution has obviously doomed."

Diamont, Anita. The Red Tent.
Wyatt Bk: St. Martin's. 1997. 321 pages.$ 23.95
ISBN: 0-312-16978-7.
BIBLE STORY...

Anita Diamont's The Red Tent is a rich, beautifully told biblical tale, an embellishment of the story of Dinah, the daughter of patriarch Jacob and Leah. Lovingly described as a proud and handsome man who comes to visit his brutish relative Leban, Jacob is enchanted by Leban's daughters,, especially Leah, whose strange beauty is complemented by her many practical skills. She bears many sons to Jacob until a daughter, Dinah, is born and is greeted with great celebration, especially among the women. In many ways, Dinah's life is a sad one, but her determination and life instinct are unstoppable. She becomes a midwife, raises her family, and sojourns in Egypt. Her fateful meeting with her powerful cousin Joseph provides emotional denouement to this tale told from a woman's perspective.

It mentions purification rites, idols, role of men and women in pre-biblical times, festivals, honor of the family, even contraceptives!

Bubble

For example, one speaks of the "women's movement" as a rising up in the latter part of the 20th century (and then only in Western culture) against the injustices against women that were taking place in the previous century or so. We look all around for the "blame" -- men being brought up improperly, unfair laws by a too conservative government, etc. etc. Then we read Durant and he asks, in effect, "what's new?" He describes women as a "primitive tabu" existing long before the creation of "civilized societies."

So now where do we look for the "blame?" Should we look back earlier than primitive man and examine the male-female relationships among animals? In one of the earlier postings I quoted Durant as saying that primitive people rubbed noses, smelled each other, and licked each other, but did NOT kiss. Sounds like animals to me.

Just what is this apparently inherent need(?), drive(?) for the male to stay away from the female or to keep the female away from him at certain times?

Robby

Bubble

Robby

He says: "Without those strange noises called common nouns, thought was limited to individual objects or experiences sensorily -- for the most part visually -- remembered or conceived. Presumably it could not think of classes as distinct from individual things, nor of qualities as distinct from objects, nor of objects as distinct from their qualities. Without words as class names one might think of this man, or that man. One could not think of Man, for the eye sees not Man but only men, not classes but particular things.

"The beginning of humanity came when some freak or crank, half animal and half man, squatted in a cave or in a tree, cracking his brain to invent the first common noun, the first sound-sign that would signify a group of like objects -- house that would mean all houses, man that would mean all men, light that would mean every light that ever shone on land or sea.

"From that moment the mental development of the race opened upon a new and endless road. For words are to thought what tools are to work -- the product depends largely on the growth of the tools."

COMMENTS?

Robby

When man created his first words, he was showing the first manifestation of abstract thinking.

Language is a social convention between people of the same "tribe", caused by the necessity of passing information from one to the other.

Bubble

Robby

Robby

There were so many different Arabian dialects that the Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians had difficulties in communications in their own native lanquages among the different tribes in northern Africa, and used French as a second lanquage, as thees countries were all French Colonies.

  As I was bi-linqual, I got along very well with the Arabs in every African Country.

The thing that surprised us the most was that the strong centuries old patriarchal system was still in existence, in which women were still regarded as chattel, and not as equals to the men-folk.

  It was no uncommon sight to see a woman and a donkey hitched up together, doing the chores in the hot sun, while the man of the domicle fanned himself, in the shade , under a nearby tree while he supervised the job.

In Tunisia, it was customary among the Nomad Bedouins, who were desert dwellers and continually moving, that the man usually travelled 20 paces ahead of his wife, on his donkey, to denote his male authority position. The woman tradionally trudged on foot behind, carrying a large bundle of firewood on her head.

Riding the donkey ahead of his wife made it possible for the man to point out sticks of wood that she might not see. She would then pick up the piece, and add it to the bundle already on top of her head.

While the Germans were retreating in the desert they planted numerous anti- personnel mines to slow the American pursuit.

  Occasionally a mule would step on a mine, and the man and mule would be blown to Kingdom Come.

This changed the whole patriarchal culture among the Bedouins, while we were there to observe it, and made them reconsider the position and status of their wives.

After the loss of a few men and mules, the women were given the privileged position of walking 20 paces in front of the mule, but still had to carry the bundle of wood on her head.

This made the women more vunerable to tripping a mine and getting maimed or losing her life, but it saved a lot of mules from extinction.

Pat

I went to see what I could find about languages in the country I was born in, since Africa is beeing called the craddle of modern man.

Zaire, now called Democratic Republic of Congo is situated astride the equator. On sees that different languages are used there, 186 of them from the bantu group. these last are used by 86 % of the population. Four of them are called "national languageds" and are taught in primary schools, all of them bantu; they are Lingala, Swahili, Kikongo and Kiluba. The official language of D.R. of Congo is French which alone is used in High Schools.

I myself speak Swahili. I can tell you that I do not understand one word of the other languages. Swahili is the language most spoken in Africa, it is used in Tanganya, Kenya, Ruanda, Burundi and Congo. The word Swahili comes from "sahel" Arabic word meaning "shore" for the oriental shores of Africa where it is spoken. It has been gratly influenced by Arabic, at the time of the slave trade.

All that is very far from the start of language, but shows the diversity attained in just one country.

Bubble

You can determine my confusion and doubt by counting the number of quotation marks in this posting!!

Robby

"Dupont learned to distinguish twelve specific sounds used by fowls and doves, fifteen by dogs, and twenty-two by horned cattle. Garner found that the apes carried on their endless gossip with at lest twenty different sounds, plus a repertory of gestures. From these modest vocabularies a few steps bring us to the three hundred words that suffice some unpretentious men."

Twenty-two different sounds by horned cattle and only 300 words by "unpretentious" men?

Bubble

Robby

Among First Nations people in North America, each distinct group calls themselves "the People" or the "Humans" -- no distinction between themselves and others (there were no others). Words such as Dine and Inuit mean simply that. There was also no word for "thank you" or the corresponding thought. This wasn't lack of gratitude, there was simply no conceivable possibly of not giving or not sharing to make "thank you" necessary. Everything was shared, nothing was owned by anyone.

MAL I think you are right on about female cycles being the defining factor of tabu. Distasteful as it may be to some, it is a fact that women in close proximity, under natural circumstances, have their periods at the same time. This means in the average tribal unit, several of the women and girls (the ones not too young, pregnant or nursing, or the practically-nonexistant one over 50), would all be bleeding at once, every month with no apparent ill effects, but occasionally preganancy would be the reward. They had not wounded themselves, were healthy, didn't die. Bleeding not dying. Not only that -- there is substantial research that indicates female hormone levels are influenced by circadian rhythms and light. In a natural environment, menstruation would harmonize with the phases of the moon exactly. Scary stuff. Wonder sometimes if circumcision wasn't a compensatory pratice, imitating that bleeding. Hey, there's lots of theories out there.

PATRICK Re; Donkeys. Could sense your tongue was firmly in your cheek.

Pauline.

I might have sidled over to the men and said (sotto voce), in gestures of course - let's start a tabu.

Robby

P

Pauline

"Even after indefinite millenniums of linguistic changes and complications, every language still contains hundreds of imitative words -- roar, rush, murmur, tremor, giggle, groan, hiss, heave, hum, cackle, etc. The Tecuna tribe of ancient Brazil had a perfect verb for sneeze - haitschu. Out of such beginnngs, perhaps, came the root-words of every language. Renan reduced all Hebrew words to five hundred roots, and Skeat nearly all European words to some four hundred stems."

Any examples of your own?

Pauline

"Simple tribes living for the most part in comparative isolation, and knowing the happiness of having no history, felt little need for writing. Their memories were all the stronger for having no written aids. They learned and retained, and passed on to their children by recitation, whatever seemed necessary in the way of historical record and cultural transmission."

What advantages or disadvantages do you see in oral vs written history?

Robby

P

Robby

Does anyone here see a connection between the "priests" as we know them today and science?

Robby

Is there, therefore, a similarity between these two fields? Is it not extraordinary, as Durant tells us, that Science began with Priests?

Robby

I might add, to avoid any confusion, that the term "priest" is being used here as Durant used it and not to refer to any current religion.

Robby

Here are cuttting of an article read today about beliefs and superstitions TODAY.

DURBAN, South Africa, Nov. 24 (UPI)

few things have galvanized such universal outrage across all racial groups as the recent gang rape of a 9-month-old baby by six men in the Northern Cape. \\\snip\\\

The baby was badly physically injured by the assault, but is now out of intensive care. \\\snip\\\

In particular, the case has dramatized the fact that many rapes in South Africa are committed against minors, often because it is believed in this AIDS-stricken country that only sex with a virgin will free one of the HIV virus. \\\snip\\\

This in turn has made girls of younger and younger ages vulnerable to men who believe that only sex with a virgin will cleanse them of the spell of AIDS. And it must be emphasized that AIDS is often seen as the result of black magic. At the rural clinic in Izingolweni (southern KwaZulu-Natal) which I visited last week Sister Irene Bopela told me that "Typically men come here saying their family has been bewitched. What this actually means is that the man has become HIV positive while in town and then, on returning to the rural area, has infected his wife and has, in rapid succession, had two or more children. Then they realize that the whole family is dying and they say they have been bewitched. It is far easier than facing up to the man's guilt." \\\snip\\\

Deborah Valeka, who works for Life Line in Khayelitsha squatter camp on the Cape flats, the idea predates AIDS. "It has often been believed that if you sleep with a virgin or someone younger than yourself this will cure sexually transmitted diseases. Now it is just being applied to AIDS too." \\\snip\\\

It is difficult to know where the myth about sex with a virgin will cure AIDS came from -- some believe that it was from traditional healers (witchdoctors). \\\snip\\\

Copyright 2001 by United Press International. All rights reserved.

Bubble

Please tell us, Bubble, would you consider "civilization" in Africa part of Western Civilization, Eastern (oriental heritage), or what?

Robby

Sounds, then words, then roots. I think for exemple of the [Sssssss] sound made by the hi-[ss] of a [s]-nake... Ii is so suggestive in English.
In French it becomes the [s]-iffle and [s]-ifflement of the [s]-erpent.
In Hebrew you get [sh]-orek for the noise and nakha[sh] for the snake.

Vocabulary must differ among different people groups. Tutsi people from Ruanda and Burundi have their culture geared around their cattle. In their language they have literaly dozens of words to designate cows. But they have no word for a seal. If you take Eskimos, their language is very rich in nouns for different kinds of snows, which we would be at a loss to translate in one or two words of our own. This shows that men created a vocabulary to suit their needs and probably started with those words most needed in everyday life to tell of dangers, needs, food products.

In Hebrew and other semitic languages, the words are formed on a root of three letters which, when used with different vowels or with an additional consonnat, can give a variety of related words. SPR in its simplest form is SeFeR a book; as SiFRia it becomes a library; SoFeR means an author; SiPooR is a story; miSPar means number (P and F are interchangeable, as well as B and V); liSPoR means to count and le SaPeR means to tell a story. You see the wealth never ends!

Bubble

Robby

I just don't understand the question....
I tried to take it personally, hoping it would make it clearer to me.I was born in Africa, I was educated in a totally European culture by Belgian nuns following the Belgian curriculum, I now live in Israel which is in Asia. Can I say that I am more influenced by my African, European or Asian background? I have no idea. I just feel part of the human race.

Africa is just Africa with its mystery, its magic, its beliefs. Same as Egypt is, or Peru is, or Ireland. That superstitions or traditions were different is a small detail. I believe the development was the same. It does not matter much who was first or if it developped in parallel in different places, does it?

Bubble

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Oh my! What a Senior Net Tour that would be!

Speaking again about priests - could this also mean a person like the witch doctor? The one who tried to cure those who were ill? The shaman?

We will be going through a number of civilizations before we come to Durant's chapter on China which, however, is an important part of "our oriental heritage."

If you were to spend a week without benefit of clock or watch or radio or TV, would you be able to tell what time of day or night it was?

I have also read an argument that our obession with perfect health is a religion. We have come to believe that if we're "good", we'll be healthy, and if we're not, we must have done something wrong. We think we have far more control than we actually do. My biggest worry is that this viewpoint will get ever-narrower.

Pauline

MAL "Apple Pie" awwwwwwww! No matter how much pressure I apply to my son and daughter-in-law, they won't make me a Gramma (just kidding -- they're young yet).

P

When the need to count became important I imagine the primitive man used his fingers to convey what he counted. Maybe he counted in multiple and would use symbols like wings of birds to say two, a clover for three, the legs of an animal for four, his hand for five.

Most counting were based on ten and multiple of ten, because the first people tended to uuse their fingers for counting. Strangely enough some people couted on a base of 12. The Mayas, The Aztecs, the Celts and the Basques were more imaginative and used their fingers as well as their toes and based their counting on 20. The Summerians, for some strange reason, reckonned on a base of 60 which is still used today for the circle and the time measures. The Chinese used knotted strings for keeping accounts and use an abacus for counting, as is still seen in some remote parts of that country.

In African markets one can still see women counting with the help of small stones or small bones and keeping the account of how much they have earned in well arranged piles.
Bubble

P.S. About knowing the time without artifiacial means? I think I can do it within the range of less than one hour - but only if I live outside a house. In summer during fifteen days, we used to camp on the rough and never wore a watch nor listened to the radio. From watching the position of the sun, the shade of the trees on the lake, the freshening of the temperature, we knew accurately the time and could predict how long it would take to be sunset and too dark to see around. We of course used no artificial light which would have attracted moskitoes and other insects.

Do you believe that there is a correlation between a positive mental outlook and good physical health?

Robby

This is great stuff!! I find it absolutely amazing that the base count of 60 has traveled thousands and thousands of years from the time of the Sumerians to our present-day technological age. Does that mean that we have never found anything better or that they came up with the "almost perfect" base back there at the start of "civilized" history?

Robby

I can even give an example of our daily life. Finding a parking spot in town is a headache during working hours. When I leave home to get to a particular store, I concentrate, visualize the place I would love to find, so I wont need to walk much, and in 75 % of the cases I find the exact spot I wanted for my car. In some cases a little further away. BUT when my husband is driving and we need to find a parking place, the whole drive he will be complaining that the town gets too crowded, there are too many cars and it is madness to want to shop in the middle of the day. Needless to say that we circle round and round and even come back Home, deciding to shop some other day.

Bubble

"There is nothing that men will not do, there is nothing they have not done, to recover their health and save their lives. They have submitted to be half-drowned in water and half-choked with gases, to be buried up to ther chins in earth, to be seared with hot irons like galley-slaves, to be crimped with knives like codfish, to have needles thrust inbto their flesh, and bonfires kindled on their skin, to swallow all sort of abominations, and to pay for all this as if to be singed and scalded were a costly privilege, as if blisters were a blessing and leeches a luxury."

P

How do you see this as fitting into the onward progress of civilization?