Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Export

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!

"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

Volume One ("Our Oriental Heritage")
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "

THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK
The "Book of the Law" - The composition of the Pentateuch - The myths of "Genesis" - The Mosaic Code - The Ten Commandments - The idea of God - The sabbath - The Jewish family - Estimate of the Mosaic legislation

"To build a military state was impossible. Judea had neither the numbers nor the wealth for such an enterprise."
"These delightful tales of the Creation, the Temptation and the Flood were drawn from a storehouse of Mesopotamian legend as old as 3000 B.C."

"The books which Josiah and Ezra caused to be read to the people formulated that 'Mosaic' Code on which all later Jewish life was to be built."

"The Mosaic Code gave to the Jews, through the two thousand years of wandering which they were soon to begin, a 'portable Fatherland,' an intangible and spiritual state."

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

Dr. Durant worked steadily from 1927 to 1932 and this volume represents the third complete re-writing. "Our Oriental Heritage" deals first with the establishment of civilization and then takes up, in rich and fascinating detail, the colorful complex dramas of the Near East, India and her neighbors, and the Far East.

Every one of the thousands of facts has been checked and double-checked. Extra copies of the manuscript were made and sent to many specialists. It records the cultural history of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, and Persia to their conquest by Alexander and narrates the history of civilization in India from the Vedas to Mahatma Gandhi, in China from Confucius to Chiang Kai-shek, and in Japan from the earliest times to mid-1930s.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.
This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca

Links to all SOC Vol. I (Our Oriental Heritage) Discussions

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Internet Citation Procedure

Let us continue on as we have been doing. Jane has merely moved the last 1000+ posts over to an archive but we go right on as if nothing has happened --
except the fact that we have such an active stimulating group here that we have used up over 2000 postings in just a bit over two months!!
Want to have some fun? Strike up a conversation with some of your non-Senior Net friends and casually make some remarks about Primitive Man or Sumeria or Ancient Egypt or Babylonia. After all, you are an expert now!!

Robby

YOU ARE ALL CLICKING THE "SUBSCRIBE" BUTTON AT THE BOTTOM, RIGHT??

I did just that yesterday. I was asked if I had enroled at the university! Bubble

In all due respect to some excellent college or university classes, isn't this a heck of a lot more FUN??!!

Robby

Sure is, Robby. I was thinking about that today.

Mal

Where the heck is this "subscribe Button" you are talking about. I just lost a lengthy posting in the transfer.

Justin -- At both the top and the bottom are a number of green buttons. One says: "Check Subscription." Right next to that is one which says "Subscribe." If the button instead says "Cancel subscription," then that means you are already subscribed.

Robby

Pretend that you are a young Babylonian priest just learning about Astrology. Click onto the BASICS OF ASTROLOGY to learn about this "science" used by the Ancients.

Robby

Justin:--Go to my name in the Heading. Below that is the "Links to Past SOC Discussions." Click onto that and then click onto "Part 2" which are the last 1000+ postings. Go to the end and see if your post is there. If it is not, you have lost it for some unknown reason.

Robby

And a Heck of a lot cheaper Robby, besides sitting at home in comfort.

I do mention S of C now and then, but friends in other discussions might prefer just to lurk. I only met two seniors who had computers and spoke English.

Miss Holmes says Astrology is not something one either believes in or not, that it is a science, a method of viewing the human being in relation to his astrological chart. So is she saying it is true that the planets and their alignment have effect on individuals? I thought that in the beginning astrology was a science in the sense of a study of planets,the moon, and the sun in their movements, which later turned into Astronomy. That allowed for clocks, calandars, measurments of time etc. and only much later did the business of birth signs become a so called science..(which by the way I do not believe it is a science as used today)and I could be wrong about which came first. I can find no serious reason to think that the planets effect the character or personality of an individual. fp

Durant continues:--

"As far back as 2000 B.C., the Babylonians had made accurate records of the heliacal rising and setting of the planet Venus. They had fixed the position of various stars, and were slowly mapping the sky.

"The Kassite conquest interrupted this development for a thousand years. Then, under Nebuchadrezzar, astronomic progress was resumed. The priest-scientists plotted the orbits of sun and moon, noted their connections and eclipses, calculated the courses of the planets, and made the first clear distinction between a planet and a star. They determined the dates of winter and summer solstices, of vernal and autumnal equinoxes, and following the lead of the Sumerians, divided the ecliptic (i.e. the path of the earth around the sun) into the twelve signs of the Zodiac."

Can you imagine a particular development being "interrupted for a thousand years" and then resuming? And we wonder what we are going to have for supper!!

Robby

There are four Babylonian tablets in cuneiform that contain mathematical concepts. One of these shows the derivation of a circle from a square with an inscribed isosceles triangle and two right triangles. The derivation implies a knowledge of the pythagorean theorum. However, Pythagorus lived in Sixth Century Greece and the tablets are from 3000 BCE. We know that Pythagorus traveled to Babylon before opening his school in Southern Italy so he may have found the basis for his theory there. We don't know that he or anyone else was able to read cuneiform at that time but the Babylonian basis for the theory may well have been available from other sources at that time.

This post#12 confirms what I thought and adds the wonderful knowledge of when it started, the study of the planets I mean. And as I had in mind it was used as a way to fix dates, and determin summer and winter etc.I did not know it had that lag time in the application of this knowledge. I am sure the lady who wrote about astrology, and she was only writing about the modern use as natal charts- knows this history of the Science. Still there is no reason I know of to believe that planets effect individuals.fp

Once again, Justin, evidence or circumstantial evidence that concepts we thought came into being fairly recently (Ancient Greece?) actually existed a thousand or more years before. Our current Civilization apparently rests on a much deeper and stronger foundation than most of us realize.

Did any of us ever think of this as we took our high school or college geometry and trigonometry? As the eyes of some of us glazed over under the tutelage of our math teacher, did we pause for just a moment and visualize that this same concept was being examined on a rooftop one of those starry nights in Babylonia four thousand years ago?

Robby

I guess I am subscribed. The button says "cancel". My posting must have gone off into the ether waves.

Well, Justin, you keep coming back alive and kicking so I guess you are Subscribed!

"Having divided the circle into 360 degrees, the Babylonians divided the degree into sixty minutes, and the minute into sixty seconds. They measured time by a clepsydra or water-clock, and a sun-dial. These seem to have been not merely developed but invented by them.

As you look at your watch, do you think about Babylonia?

Robby

I do not believe we are moulded by our star signs.

I do believe that alignments can affect electromagnet fields around the earth which may cause affects on humans but only at the time of the alignments. Much as Northerly winds are known to trigger headaches here. This has been studied and proved. I am nothing like my supposed star sign!

Carolyn

I wonder if modern astronomers are able to use the positions of Venus and other stars fixed during Babylonian times. The history of a star's positioning is usually based on probability theory. I wonder where these old positions fall on the current probability charts.

I have to agree with Kiwi Lady about being affected by star signs. My children are twins, born minutes apart and their personalities are totally unalike. Even though they are fraternal, by astrological definition, their personalities should be similar.

There must be other things in nature besides mapping the stars that made the Babylonians choose a numerical system based on the number six. Unlikely that they saw snowflakes but perhaps naturally occuring crystals of various ores were found in their area. My question is why did they choose six. Ten would be a more natural choice since we have ten fingers, etc.

This is a fun forum. While I enjoyed my university courses, I find people here have a wealth of knowledge that they share whereas we were callow youth and didn't know more than we learned that day or studied for an exam. Besides there aren't the social pressures here.

The similarities between the Hebrews and Babylonians is likely a result of the Hebrew captivity in about 600 BC. Many people assimilated and many didn't leave when the opportunity came to return to ancient Israel.

"The Babylonians divided the year into twelve lunar months, six having thirty days, six twenty-nine, and as this made but 354 days in all, they added a thirteenth month occasionally to harmonize the calendar with the seasons. The month was divided into four weeks according to the four phases of the moon.
"An attempt was made to establish a more convenient calendar by dividing the month into six weeks of five days but the phases of the moon proved more effective than the conveniences of men.
"The day was reckoned not from midnight to midnight but from one rising of the moon to the next. It was divided into twelve hours, and each of these hours was divided into thirty minutes, so that the Babylonian minute had the feminine quality of being four times as long as its name might suggest.

"The division of our month into four weeks, of our clock into twelve hours (instead of twenty-four), of our hour into sixty minutes, and of our minute into sixty seconds, are unsuspected Babylonian vestiges in our contemporary world."

Intriguing, huh? Well, Durant has been constantly using the word "heritage."

Robby

People who are fascinated by CLOCKS will be absolutely fascinated by this Link. You'll be gone for a while. But please PLEASE! come back to us soon.

Robby

The shadow on the dial,
the striking of the clock,
the running of the sand,
day and night,
summer and winter,
months, years, centuries
- these are but arbitrary and outward signs,
the measure of Time, not Time itself.
Time is the Life of the soul.

- - - Henry W. Longfellow (1807-1882).

Sharon A. says:--"This is a fun forum."

Are we having fun, gang?

In the Hebrew calendar an extra month Adar is added when needed so some years have two Adars. The calendar is, I think, based on a nineteen year cycle with adjustments as needed.

Even though the Babylonians had a twelve month cycle to a year, they had circular time not linear time that stretched into the future and the past. Even in Roman times, events were recounted in The year of the reign of So and So. In the book, The Gifts of the Jews, the author says the concept of linear time, that is calendar years that continue no matter who is ruling was a new concept. Before that people thought in terms of seasons, planting, harvesting, waiting for the rains, and then a repetition of the seasons again.

"By the time of Hammurabi, the art of healing had separated itself in some measure from the domain and domination of the clergy. A regular profession of physician had been established, with fees and penalties fixed by law. A patient who called in a doctor could know in adance just how much he would have to pay for such treatment or operation. If he belonged to the poorer classes, the fee was lowered accordingly. If the doctor bungled badly, he had to pay damages to the patient. In extreme cases, his fingers were cut off so that he might not readily experiment again."

I just know some folks here are going to comment on our current day medical profession!

Robby

That link about time was SO interesting Robby and if I have time I will go back to it later.

Of course time on earth is different from time in space, determined by earth's rotation, the phases of the moon, earth's distance from the sun.

Astronauts in space use earth's time only for convenient purposes because satellites and space stations rotate around the earth about 18 times in a 24 hour period, depending on how high they are flying, making their timepieces useless. They set their watches according to the time at thesir home base on earth only so they can have a regular routine of eating, sleeping, working, relaxing, etc.

I found this information interesting during astronauts' interviews for the space television series.

I bet the ancient astronomers thought they had finally discovered how to measure time accurately and permanently. Wait until space technology shatters what we currently believe in. The 21st century will certainly contribute to changes in our way of life in ways we never dreamed of.

Eloïse

Any comments regarding the quote which begins "The almost secularized science...?"

Robby

Durant says that "sorcerers and necromancers were more popular than physicians, and enforced, by their influence with the populace, irrational methods of treatment. Disease was possession...."

Yesterday I posted a link to a site which tells about the Babylonian cure for a toothache. This was done by giving the patient a lump of malt and oil mixed together and the reciting of an incantation. Click the link below to read that incantation.
Cure for a Babylonian toothache

Durant does say that the eight hundred medical tablets that survive to inform us of Babylonian medicine do it injustice and that "we must not be too sure of the ignorance of our ancestors".

Are there examples of the use of magical cures today? I read of an island (wish I could remember the name) where aloe is used to cure AIDS today because of its magical healing powers.

Is the use of a kind of self-suggestion that one will not give in to symptoms of illness a kind of magic today? I know that I use every means I have not to be sick, including telling myself that I won't be, before I seek the help of a doctor. Part of the reason for this is that at one time I found myself more or less addicted to doctors. I see this type of dependency in many people today, especially older people. Convincing oneself that he or she is well is part of the healing process, in my opinion. Perhaps the incantations of Ancient Babylonia served the same purpose.

Mal

"In the beginning of all cultures a strong religious faith conceals and softens the nature of things, and gives men courage to bear pain and hardship patiently. At every step the gods are with them, and will not let them perish, until they do.

"Even then a firm faith will explain that it was the sins of the people that turned their gods to an avenging wrath. Evil does not destroy faith, but strengthens it."

Comments, please?

Robby

Robby:

Your quote about evil reminds me of what I was told when I was a child. "You have to suffer to be beautiful, Mal." I never seemed able to get the message across that suffering hard once was enough for me to understand that lesson. (And I never had the sin of "insolent pride of prosperity", either.)

".....a strong religious faith conceals and softens the nature of things, and gives men courage to bear pain and hardship patiently." There have been times in my life when I've slipped into the back pew of a cathedral and looked at beautiful stained glass and listened to wonderful music. The atmosphere relaxed me in the same way sitting on the sand and watching white-foamed waves of the ocean does. These experiences made me aware of how religion can "conceal and soften the nature of things."

Let's just say I've never agreed with the idea that evil which brings pain, hardship and suffering is an integral part of being a good and contented person.

Mal

Mal I so understand that. I do not believe that "evil" made me strong or beautiful or anything else except fearful of more evil and I did not trust that God would fix everything anymore than I trusted Santa Clause to bring me that violin.I went to work at nine years old and bought the violin. I have attained a certain serenity in my later years so that I do not walk a razor edge anymore fearful that the pain will surface again, because I now have more physcological tools to handle lifes ups and downs. fp

And yet Durant tells us that "in the beginning of all cultures a strong religious faith conceals and softens the nature of things and gives courage to bear pain and hardship patiently."

He adds:--"Science weakens faith even while thought and comfort weaken virility and fortitude. At last men begin to doubt the gods. They mourn the tragedy of knowledge and seek refuge in every passing delight.

"Achilles is at the beginning.
Epicurus at the end.
After David comes Job.
After Job, Ecclesiastes."

Robby

When Eve took a bite of the apple and handed it to Adam, a kind of knowledge was exchanged, which thereafter was considered the original sin against God's commandment.

Obviously, the idea that knowledge is a tragedy is an ancient one, as is the idea that knowledge is accompanied by pleasure and ease, considered by some to be as negative and tragic as knowledge.

I find it very hard to believe that Durant thought knowledge is a tragedy. I think he found it the greatest of all pleasures, just as I, who at last have the ease to pursue it, do.

Mal

"We find the thought of Babylon shot through with the weary wisdom of tired philosophers who took their pleasures like Englishmen. On one tablet Balta-atrua complains that though he has obeyed the commands of the gods more strictly than any one else, he has been laid low with a variety of misfortunes. He has lost his parents and his property, and even the little that remained to him has been stolen on the highway. His friends, like Job's, reply that his diseaster must be in punishment of some secret sin -- perhaps that hybris, or insolent pride of prosperity, which particularly arouse the jealous anger of the gods. They assure him that evil is merely good in disguise, some part of the divine plan seen too narrowly by frail minds unconscious of the whole.

"Let Balta-atrua keep faith and courage, and he will be rewarded in the end. Better still, his enemies will be punished. Balta-atrua calls out to the gods for help. The fragment of tablet suddenly ends."

Any reactions to this?

Robby

The desire to have the knowledge of good and evil - to have the mind of God - was the temptation, as I recall.

Linda

Mal - "Let's just say I've never agreed with the idea that evil which brings pain, hardship and suffering is an integral part of being a good and contented person".

I never heard that idea mentioned before but like you, I don't think so either. Neither do I believe that evil can make us 'strong and beautiful'. Evil has always been in the world, it is the opposite of 'good' as we all know. I don't think going to the beauty parlor is suffering. That small pain is not what I would call "pain and suffering"

Robby - I don't know what Durant said before "He adds:--"Science weakens faith even while thought and comfort weaken virility and fortitude. At last men begin to doubt the gods. They mourn the tragedy of knowledge and seek refuge in every passing delight."

I don't understand that quote. Perhaps he meant that science made people feel that it was the answer to everything regarding the universe and even their spiritual uncertainty?

Science has advanced civilization especially in the past century, but it has yet to find the solution to our deepest concerns concerning how to live in peace. That is not in the realm of science. It is a spiritual effort of a heart devoid of evil intentions.

The Ecclesiastes was a phylosopher. Don't we all go back to dust eventually? But most of us here would like to leave the world a better place and that is what we are trying to do by talking about it together.

Eloïse

Eloise:

As said to me, the saying, "You have to suffer to be beautiful" had nothing to do with a hairdresser. It had to do with being a good person.

Mal

Evil doesn't destroy faith, but strengthens it. The thought is a parallax. Faith can, in itself, be an evil.We are talking about faith in the Gods and their power to protect us. Yet, a strong faith conceals and softens the nature of things. It lets us overlook the evil in the Gods- the need for sacrifice and vengence. It explains the evil of the Gods by blaming oneself for their avenging nature. It was so in Babylon, it was thus from Abraham to Malachi. Ecclesiastes tells it thus. "Better is he who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun" (4/3).

Priests at the beginning of a civilization can easily convince a frightened population that they have the way to security. As time goes on and the priests acquire more and more confidence and more and more benefits their "truths" become more and more vulnerable because the people become less gullible.One then begins to ask questions and it is at this time that philosophy enters the scene. I suppose that sometimes the entrance of philosophy signals the beginning of the end of a civilization.

"Vanity in man's private life (i, 12-iii, 15): vain is human wisdom (i, 12-18); vain are pleasures and pomp (ii, 1-23). Then, rhetorically exaggerating, he draws the conclusion: 'Is it not better to enjoy life's blessings which God has given, than to waste your strength uselessly?' (ii, 24-26). As epilogue to this part is added the proof that all things are immutably predestined and are not subject to the will of man (iii, 1-15)."

The above is an interpretation of Ecclesiates in the Bible.

In this part of Our Oriental Heritage, civilization appears to be only one or two steps behind Christianity. Yet it seems to me as if civilization has not progressed very far from much earlier human beings who created gods out of everything around them, the trees, the moon, the stars, the sun. The question in my mind remains, where did the concept of sin come from?

It seems clear to me that early humans were afraid that if they did not pay homage to and worship the great tree just outside their dwelling place, cave, mud hut or whatever it was, death in the form of lightning, starvation, or death by the attack of a fierce, wild animal or other force would come to them. Without proper respect to their gods, life for them would end.

How did this translate into the idea that people had somehow sinned, and their gods would wreak vengeance and punishment on them if they did not somehow atone for the sins they had done, even when they had not committed any like Tabi-urul-Enlil and Job?

Disregarding the idea of original sin, which appears to have come much later in history, how did it come about that humans thought they were sinful? Did early man carry this same guilt about being human and inadequate against nature because he was human? Did he feel as if everything in his life was predestined, as Ecclesiastes believed it was?

Because of the superstition and myths I perceive from very early times, I can easily see why priests were given so much power and control; power and control which even destroyed the most advanced civilization we've read about thus far -- Babylonia.

Mal

Mal, you raise a very interesting question. Where did sin come from? The concept preceded the Old Testament although the books are shot through with it. Perhaps the priests fostered the idea." If you don't sacrifice ( and feed us) you commit sin. Was it considered a sin to break the Law of Hammurabi? Sin is doing something wrong, something against the wishes of the Gods (priests). If a hail storm ruins the crops, one says "what did I do wrong? Why are the gods angry with me?How did I sin? Did I fail to do something, and thus sin. Did I do something and thus sin? I did something I shouldn't have done and therefore I was punished by the hail storm. That idea then is reinforced by the priests. Sin is just a word. It is doing something or failing to do something in response to a priestly command that is sinful. That remains the case today. The priests in contemporary society are constantly telling the faithful that they have done something wrong.

"The marvel is that the Babylonians were so long loyal to a religion that offered them so little consolation."

If one receives nothing in return, why would one continue to be loyal?

Robby

Without Free will there can be no sense of sin and punishment and so Tabi with his free will is perplexed (as is Job). He thinks he has done all the right things. Yet he suffers. In the end he is cured and he expresses further faith in Marduk but we never learn the cause of his suffering (punishment). Maybe the suffering of Tabi was just an expression of nature's random way of distributing her bounty-a description of the work of the fates.

Fear of the unknown. There was no hope of salvation in this religion, nothing to look forward to, no reason to obey other than severe punishment from the Gods or Hammurabi.

Why did humans come to think they were sinful? With all the laws that that had been put in place by Hammurabi, and all the gods they had to please, they were bound to always be breaking one or the other. Thus, I think sin came by way of breaking laws that were in force. Break a law, commit a sin.

Out of this caldron, came the concept of one God, and a new religion was born, but the people carried all their myths and superstitions with them and we have much of it in the Old Testament. From that religion sprang Christianity, and later Islam. Does anyone think we have less "sin" today than those we are now reading about?

St. Augustine, whom I have quoted in the title is the originator of the original sin concept. Of course, he was only willing to be pure, after he had committed all the sins against God and man. This is the concept of a bitter old man, who couldn't sin like he used to, but he was a good writer and was thus remembered.

"The people carried all their myths and superstitions with them and we have much of it in the Old Testament. From that religion sprang Christianity, and later Islam."

In just that brief sentence, Fifi gives us a tantalizng taste of what Durant has in store for us in the remainder of "Our Oriental Heritage." Is there any of us here in this forum who now does not understand what he meant about our current civilization reflecting the culture of the Near East thousands of years ago?

Robby

"a bitter old man who couldn't sin like he use too..." That is great Fifi.I just stumbled and stopped when I read your sentence.So much to contemplate there. It is to bad he couldn't spend his old age reliving in fantasy his "sins". Perhaps we all (septigenarians) are so good and (holy) because heheheh we cant sin anymore like we use too.

Do you think that there was sin from the very first taboo that was broken. For a long time I though it could come as a natural response to the knowledge that there are opposites in nature that man must see. The naive savage must have seen good and evil and though we cant know what his philosophy was at the time, we see what it grew into. The far east (china) accepts good and evil as just two parts of life and I wish I knew more of their concepts too. fp

"Tabi-urul-Enlil, a ruler in Nippur, describes his many difficulties. He tells what a pious fellow he has always been, the very last man in the world who should have met with so cruel a fate. Stricken with disease despite all this formal piety, he muses on the impossibility of understanding the gods, and on the uncertainty of human affairs.

"In the end everything turns out happily. A spirit appears, and cures all of Tabi's ailments. A mighty storm drives all the demons of disease out of his frame. He praises Marduk, offers rich sacrifice, and calls upon every one never to despair of the gods."

Durant goes on to say:--"As there is but a step from this to the Book of Job, so we find in late Babylonia literature unmistakable premonitions of Ecclesiastes. In the Epic of Gilgameth (Link to this posted here earlier), the goddess Sabitu advises the hero to give up his longing for a life after death, and to eat, drink and be merry on the earth."

Robby

Faith states:--"The Far East (China) accepts good and evil as just two parts of life and I wish I knew more of their concepts too."

Undoubtedly Durant will be covering this when we discuss China in the latter part of this Volume.

Robby

I recall from early childhood the explanation of my parents that Evil was placed on this Earth to help teach us how to do good.

Sin I recall was doing Evil.

Jere

Durant says,"In the end nothing is lost; for good or evil every event has effects forever." Society grows by simply attaching slight variations on tradition. In the revelation of Gubarru the soul of man,good and bad, descends into Aralu for an eternity of darkness and suffering. Over time this concept slowly evolved into a salvation promise if one is good and a continuance in Aralu (hell) if one is bad. This variation may seem slight but it constitutes the core of Christianity. Without that little variation Christians would be engaged in revelry just as were the Babylonians without hope of redemption.

As a Christian, I can tell you your scenerio is completely contrary to Christianity and God's plan for mankind and their eternal future. Your fella Gubarru sure has it wrong. "Goodness" will never bring salvation. Take God out of the word "good" and what do you have? "O". Sin did in fact begin with Eve "Picking the forbidden fruit." The eating of it was secondary, and it was Adam who was the "head of the family" who brought sin into the world by accepting it and then eating of it. His sin has been carried throught all history to all mankind, and the absolutely ONLY way man's sins can be atoned is by his acceptance of, and through confession of his sins to Jesus Christ who atoned for the sins of all mankind. That's the very reason for the NEW Covenant. Good and evil do NOT go into hell, only those who reject Christ. The beginnings of mankind began on the sixth day of God's creation, and the end of mankind on earth will end in what God calls the "End of days". The "End of days ONLY comes after the Great White Throne Judgment." God says, "First comes death, then comes judgment."

I recognize that the folks in this forum are not Christians, and you are trying to reason and solve life's problems and events that occur in God's creation. You cannot do this without knowing, understanding, and studying God's truths in the Bible. Without knowing His Word, it's like the blind leading the blind, and you will find yourselves against a blank wall with no absolute solutions.

Welcome, Blue Knight, to this forum.

As you know, this is a group discussing Durant's book, "Our Oriental Heritage." We do not make it a point to express our particular religious preferences but instead examine the various civilizations as described by Durant. We are not trying to "solve life's problems" but instead examining how those ancient civilizations attempted to do so. Perhaps you take issue with the description of various civilizations as described by Durant and at times participants here do just that.

You have expressed your personal belief which, according to the guidelines stated when this forum began, you are entitled to do -- but only once. It is also against the guidelines of this forum to characterize the other participants. You do not know which participants here are Christian and which are not. We discuss issues, not personalities.

If you wish to follow these guidelines, you are most welcome to become part of our group.

FOLLOWING ARE THE GUIDELINES AS STATED WHEN THIS FORUM BEGAN:--

"To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

Those are the guidelines. Again, with those as a framework, you are most welcome.

Robby

Durant continues about Babylonia:--

"Tradition and the Book of Daniel, unverified by any document known to us, tell how Nebuchadrezzar, after a long reign of uninterrupted victory and prosperity, after beautifying his city with roads and palaces, and erecting fifty-four temples to the gods, fell into a strange insanity, thought himself a beast, walked on all fours, and ate grass. For four years his name disappears from the history and governmental records of Babylonia. It reappears for a moment, and then, in 562 B.X., he passes away."

"Within thirty years after his death his empire crumbled to pieces."

Do you folks see this instance and other examples in civilizations we have examined as indicating that the strength of a civilization revolves around one man -- or is this not so?

Robby

There is a very interesting article in NGM of January on Islam. From there are taken the following statistics about the world's largest religions: more than one fifth of human kind follows Islam which, due to high birthrates and conversions, is the world's fastest growing religion. Christianity has 2 billion followers, Islam 1,3 billion, Hinduism 900 million, Buddhism 360 million. Christianity is on the way of losing its supremacy.

For more on Islam in America, go to <nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0201>

In the same NGM of January (same link too) there is a picture and a caption about a burial from about 12.000 years ago. Hunter-gatherers put the body of a man, a pup in his hand in a grave. There is no way to know if it was a dog or a wolf since the DNA is almost identical for both species.

Talking about civilization, we never stopped to ponder when did man started to have pets and to tame animals.
Bubble

In this forum we are discussing the works of a historian. A most interesting ARTICLE in this morning's New York Times indicates the extreme importance attached to a historian's accuracy and the peripheral question as to whether his remarks are, indeed, his or taken from someone else.

As most of you have noticed, I take this seriously. If Durant makes the remark, I say so. In addition, any remarks by Durant are in bold face, italicized, and with quote marks around them so you don't confuse them with my comments.

The historian discussed in the article is Ambrose but the general idea is most appropriate to our forum here. Those who have "Our Oriental Heritage" have undoubtedly noted Durant's use of footnotes and his copious remarks at the end as well as the large index. Please note also in the Heading above how Durant had others check out his manuscript before it was published.

Robby

Bubble:--Thank you for those statistics on religions as published in the National Geographic. As we continue through this Volume, we will have an opportunity to learn more about those religions and the Civilizations which supported them.

As for pets -- you bring up a most interesting question. I don't remember that being mentioned by Durant when we discussed Primitive Man.

Robby

I'm curious about the insanity of Nebuchadrezzar, but could find nothing except references to the Book of Daniel in the Bible, which some scholars believe is inaccurate and partly written from imagination. I went on to do a search of Nabodinus. Durant says:

"Nabodinus, who held the throne for seventeen years, preferred archeology to government, and devoted himself to excavating the antiquities of Sumeria while his realm was going to ruin."

Click the link below to access a site about Nabodinus and the Nabodinus Chronicles, which are pictured.

Nabodinus

The link below takes you to the site of an article about the last kings of Babylonia, including Bel-shar-usur, known in the Book of Daniel in the Bible as Belthazzar.

The Last Kings of Babylonia

"It was from Babylonia that those fascinating legends came which, through the literary artistry of the Jews, became an inseparable portion of Europe's religious lore. It was from Babylonia, rather than from Egypt, that the roving Greeks brought to their city-states, and thence to Rome and ourselves, the foundations of mathematics, astronomy, medicine, grammar, lexicography, archeology, history, and philosophy.
"The Greek names for the metals and the constellations, for weights and measures, for musical instruments and many drugs, are translations, sometimes mere transliterations, or Babylonian names. Babylonian architecture, through the ziggurat, led to the towers of Moslem mosques, the steeples and campaniles of medieval art, and the 'setback' style of contemporary architecture in America.

"The laws of Hammurabi became for all ancient societies a legacy comparable to Rome's gifts of order and government in the modern world."

A POWERFUL heritage! How often do we think of Babylonia in our daily life?

Robby

"In the end nothing is lost. For good or evil every event has effects forever."

- - - Will Durant

The following list of the Babylonian months reveals how closely Jewish and Babylonian cultures are related.

Tashritu/Tishri, Arahsamna/Heshwan, Kislimu/Kislev, Tebetu/Tebet, Sabatu/Shabet, Addaru/Adar, Nisannu/Nisan, Aiaru/Iyyar, Simanu/Siwan, Du'uzu/Tammuz, Abu/Ab, Alulu/Elul.

Thank you, Ellen - certainly causes us to think.

I wonder if all of us here might pause just a bit before going on to Assyria. Most of us here have spent a considerable amount of time delving deeply into Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, and Babylonia. As indicated earlier, we examined them separately because that is the way that Durant presented them.

But could we now merge those three in our minds and see what we come up with? Any similarities? What are they? Any differences? What are they? Which ones were influenced by any of the others? Durant named his series of books a "Story." Have these three Civilizations placed any "story" in your mind?

Robby

Our past is certainly rich in history beyond expectations and I certainly learned much through Durant’s mind and pen. I am grateful to have reached 2002 when I didn’t even expect to live in good mental and physical health this long when I was younger.

I can’t believe the distance we have traveled from Primitive Man to so-called Modern man. I feel ever more that we are but a small micro minute in the continuity of the universe. Lately, though, for the first time, I expect that our time is short as more wars are ravaging this planet with ever more sophisticated weapons.

Primitive man wanted only to survive giving to that activity all his efforts for the few years he had to live. With Babylon, I was also surprised that one queen lived to be over 100 years. It goes to show that comfort and security and intelligence, gives people insight on how to live successfully many many years.

Development in trade, writing, art, agriculture, stable, able government permitted some scientific advancement, such as mortar allowing buildings and monuments such as temples, steeples, castles, towers, etc. to rise far above ground, honoring whichever divinity they believed in.

Throughout what we have studied so far, I have not changed my beliefs, but I respect and understand more other people’s beliefs and their needs to express them.

I think that we are living 100 times more comfortably than Primitive man, we are more secure, we work less physically, but more mentally. Does that make us happy? I don’t think so. I don’t think knowledge increases my pleasure, it only increases my awareness of how little I know and increases my dependency on the desire to know more. Simple pleasures are more durable and as soon as man’s mind expanded, he demanded more varied and more intricate forms of pleasure that only luxury affords - we don’t have to go to the forest for firewood we only turn the thermostat.

We are the same human beings, who are influenced by the past in traditions that are valuable for a time when it is convenient. When those values transmitted through traditions are no longer valued, we wave them aside replacing them with the science acquired by people more learned than we, who all try to prove that they have more wisdom and our thirst for knowledge drinks it all to fill a void left by discarded traditional values.

Our civilization will advance to be sure but our security will diminish and to permit this progress, the weak, poor people in poor countries will be pushed aside to allow room for more of the wonderful things that we want to enjoy.

I’m going back to Quebec now.

Love you all ………Eloise

"I expect that our time is short as more wars are ravaging this planet with ever more sophisticated weapons...Our civilization will advance to be sure but our security will diminish and to permit this progress, the weak, poor people in poor countries will be pushed aside to allow room for more of the wonderful things that we want to enjoy."

If Eloise is correct in what the future holds, is this any different from what transpired between civilizations thousands of years ago?

Robby

"Barbarism is always around civilization -- amid it and beneath it -- ready to engulf it by arms, or mass migration, or unchecked fertility."

- - - Will Durant

A few days ago, I helped a friend write and edit a lecture on Babylon which he presented to a Christian audience. Throughout his preparations, I have often commented on some of Durant's comments and the points of discussion that we have shared here. What I treasure about participating in this discussion is that not only have I learned so much about how others perceive the ancient period, but also I've been able to share the understanding with people outside the Books discussion and, in the above case, actually help someone to improve his own presentation. Thanks to all!

Thank you, Mahlia. Like yourself, I find much more pleasure in reading about these civilizations along with everyone else rather than trying to read them alone.

Robby

Welcome Blue Knight: We are at the moment discussing Durant's description of religions that preceded Christianity. I don't think we will get to Christianity until volume ll. That fella Gubarru was a Babylonian Alcibiades who did his thing 3000 years before Christ. Stick around awhile. We'll get to your topic in a couple of months. Meanwhile let us have your thoughts on Babylonia and Assyria. As Robby points out we are glad to have alternative viewpoints in the conversation.

Justin, you say:--"We are at the moment discussing Durant's description of religions that preceded Christianity."

That's just one small portion of what we are discussing in "Our Oriental Heritage. In addition to that, we are also discussing agriculture, domestication of animals, tools, trade, finance, clans, tribes, war, communities, law, custom, family, occupations, marriage, childhood, violence, homicide, suicide, language, writing, mathematics, astronomy, medicine, painting, cosmetics, clothing, pottery, sculpture, architecture, music, and on and on.

I just wouldn't want a newcomer to this forum to think that our emphasis is on religion.

Robby

In this reading up to the demise of Babylonia, I see myths and superstitions passed down to us practically since the human race began that exist today. It saddens me a little because some have come under the name of religion, and it would bother me very much if I thought religions held the evolution of the human race and civilization back.

I see the beginnings of Christianity in what Babylonians believed and what Egytians and Sumerians believed before them. Egypt left a legacy of art, science and huge monuments which exist today. The Hammurabi Code was the influence for laws as they are at this present time. The structure of Babylonia led to city states in Greece and even the states in my own country.

Still, I see throughout this "study" and discussion the effects of early man, including the barbarism which Durant and others have mentioned. Sometimes I wonder when human beings are ever going to open their eyes and drop ancient mythical traditions and superstitions which only lead to destruction and death of nations and people.

Mal

My first thought is that just before the fall the priests in Egypt and in Babylonia achieved great wealth and power making these civilizations vulnerable to foreign forces. The Persians and the Greeks were part of the end for both civilizations. Sumeria was a completely different story. They were absorbed into Akkadia and then into Babylonia. Their language disappeared but parts of it may have been incorporated into Semitic Akkadian and Babylonian. These three civilizations lying within 800 miles of one another communicated only occasionaly. They believed strongly in a life after death. Egyptians thought they could provide for the comfort of the Ka after death while the Babylonians thought the soul suffered in hell after death regardless of the character of their lives.The Mesopotamian civilization as well as the Egyptian worshiped multiple gods. They looked for aid against adversity from their gods. They wanted gifts and freedom from physical harm. Priests in both cases were able to sell charms and amulets to appease the people and to fill their treasuries. The ruling kings and pharaohs linked themselves with the priests to have a means of control of the people. Of course, they also believed, but they also recognized the benefits of a priestly liason. I wonder if Assyria will be different or merely an extention of Babylonia. They are, afterall, only 300 miles apart.

Yes, of course. Thank you. Sorry to have expressed that response in so narrow a context.

Mal; Your last post was outstanding. I wish I had written it.

Ellen: I had a run at finding which Babylonian months corresponded to the Hebrew months too. If the names of the months are so similar, there must be other words in Hebrew and in Arabic that are similar too. To digress just slightly because it will be months before we get to medieval France; there was a Talmudic scholar named Rashi who lived in northern France in approximately 1000 AD and he translated many contemporary French words into Hebrew script. When researchers reconstruct medieval French, they go to Rashi as well as other sources to find out what the words sounded like.

I also looked for similarities in the three civilizations (I like to think of them as cultures too) and came up with a quick list, some of which has been listed by others. Wars, trade, a system of writing, agriculture is a given, a calendar and without bringing religion into it because I'll over flow my quota, the Jews lived in each of these places. In fact, in most of the places we will study, the Jews lived there.

I would like to put in a quick question here. When does a culture or civilization become so unique that it is identifiable and different from other cultures and civilizations? Is it just location? Are the thinkers in one civilization different from another? Is their subject matter different? What are the influences that make them different?

Sharon, you say:--"It will be months before we get to medieval France."

It warms my heart to know you will be with us that long!

Robby

I visited the Pergamon Museum in Berlin back in the days when Berlin was still divided and the museum complex was in East Berlin under Communist rule. I was deeply impressed with the Ishtar Gate from Babylon, the Pergamon Alter, and the Market Gate of Miletus, and all of the other spectacular antiquities. But what also impressed me so deeply-was the condition of the Museum Island complex itself. At that time the buildings still had extensive damage to their exteriors. Machine gun bullet holes all over, big chunks of stone missing, windows on some buildings still shot out. I remember running my hand over the bullet holes. The corner that barbarism was lurking around was literally right there!

As we have been reading and discussing the ancient civilizations, I can't help but wonder how people in those communities would perceive us - in the 21st century with extremely high tech tools, a fairly comfortable lifestyle for many (although not all), an abundance of food, easy transportation, most people who can read and write - some in several languages. Our morals and values may differ from country to country, but overall, how would the ancient people view us - especially in the framework of "the most powerful Nation in the world." Just a thought - but one that keeps popping into my mind. Would the ancients find us as "civilized" as we think of ourselves?

Mahlia: We would be like aliens from outer space.

"Barbarism is always around civilization -- amid it and beneath it -- ready to engulf it by arms, or mass migration, or unchecked fertility."

- - - Will Durant

And to think that Ben Laden has 52 children.

Barbarism pushed masses out of Africa to become slaves in America where they were persecuted and proliferated and infiltrated into the native population, mixed with it and after a century or two, their skin color becoming lighter and lighter, nobody will be able to tell who is an African American or an American American. That is only fair after the barbarism they suffered I think.

Culture and Civilization; We have been using these words frequently. I know we all know what they mean so I thought I'd check up on myself. a)Civilization is an ideal state of human culture characterized by complete absence of barbarism and non rational behavior. It involves an optimum utilization of resources. b)a stage of human advance toward civilization. c) The process of becoming civilized. Culture is a total pattern of human behavior and its products- thought, speech,actions,and artifacts and dependent upon man's capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations through the use of tools, language, and systems of abstract thought. I draw from this that civilization is just one level of culture. Other levels may include barbarism etc.

Some great posts here as we put together all the Civilizations (cultures?) we have examined so far and make a "story" out of them!! I am just leaning back and absorbing your thoughts. Perhaps some lurkers have reactions before we move on to Assyria.
Robby

Ellen writes of barbarism lurking in the bullet holes in walls at Pergamon. Those bullet holes were made by the Russians but they could just as easily have been made by Americans-even me or Robby or Patrick, by anyone who was in the Service at that time. Eisenhower let the Russians take Berlin. I don't like to think of my actions at the time as barbaric. I was rational when I pulled the trigger in attacking or defending. I think of barbarism as non rational behavior. Does anyone disagree?

Justin - I certainly agree with your statement about barbarism and I, too, consider barbarism anti-rational. However, I doubt that the Russians considered themselves barbarians or anti-rational. A lot of who is or is not considered barbaric depends upon who is writing the history - and, as we know, history is always written by the winners.

I'm sure the Taliban don't consider themselves barbarians, either - although we certainly do.

MaryWZ

Justin, I was relating to the war that the German Facists brought down on Europe. My sympathy has always been with the Russian people! My husband fought on and on in Europe, helped open up one of the major concentration camps, and eventually took his own life because of what he went through and had become.

Both he and my daughter's German father-in-law were rigidly brought up in the Lutheran church, one in Oregon, the other in Germany. They fought each other up and down the Rhine River where my daughter's father-in-law was severely wounded at the age of nineteen. I sent my daughter to Germany as an exchange student in high school and she really never came back but studied Urban German Culture for her master's degree to better understand the rise of Facism in Germany and then went on to become a medical doctor, all in Germany.

The ultimate barbarism is war.

PS I love to roll that off my tongue. My DAUGHTER the doctor! And my NIECE the architect!

And we're not barbarians with our "smart bombs" devastating Afghanistan?

Mal

Ellen says:--"The ultimate barbarism is war."

Hasn't our examining of Sumeria and Ancient Egypt and Babylonia shown a continuing story of conquest after conquest after conquest?

Robby

Yes, indeed, Robby, and the further we read, the more we will find that barbarism (in all of its vileness) exists in each and every period, including our own.

When has war ever been rational?

Never! But it is a means of protecting one's values, way of life, family, community, country. Certainly the American men who fought in all of the American wars were protecting our way of life; but the men they fought AGAINST were doing the same thing. The Native Americans who fought to protect their culture and homelands were fighting for the same reason. They lost and that has been a blight on our Nation ever since, just like slavery in the USA in past centuries and the CONTINUED slavery of women and children for purposes of prostitution and servitude. As long as there are humans (in whatever country) there will be barbarism. We may not like it or like to think about it or admit it, but it's surely there.

If what Mal,Mahlia and Ellen say about barbarism is valid then barbarism is a necessary element in survival. But I don't think so. In my view the attacker is the barbarian. The defender and the counter puncher are not barbaric. They are rational,civilized humans responding to a threat.

The conqueror is the barbarian. The Persian, when he invaded Babylonia, was the barbarian. Alexander when he attacked Xerxes was the barbarian. The Babylonians were defending their homes and their culture.Defense and counter punch are honorable responses. Not Barbarism.When Hitler invaded Chekoslovakia, he was the barbarian. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, they were the barbarians. Was Ellen's husband a barbarian? Not from my point of view. He was an honorable responder to an obvious threat.

I just had to comment on suffering pain etc. I believe the losses and pain I have suffered in my life have made me a more caring person. If I had an easy life I believe I could have become very selfish and self absorbed. It has helped me to understand others and to have a compassion which was sadly lacking in my younger years. I see things differently now.

Carolyn

No we are not barbarians with our smart bombs devastaing Afghanistan. We are are making an honorable response to a serious threat to American lives and welfare. That response will end, I am sure, when the threat no longer exists. We must survive in this world first before we can do anything about changing it. It's not enough to sit back and say, The response is wrong, we should do something else, without saying in a meaningful way what the response should be. I know you feel strongly about this.ROBBY, I think we are ready, if you are, for Assyria.

Carolyn (Kiwi) says:--"If I had an easy life I believe I could have become very selfish and self absorbed."

Perhaps as we continue on with the various Civilizations, we might keep Carolyn's comment in mind.

Is it true of Civilizations as well as individuals? Does a Civilization which conquers -- i.e. makes the first move -- by virtue of giving itself pain keep itself strong? (This is not to imply that Carolyn purposely hurt others but to understand her comment that pain leads to growth.) No pain, no gain?

Do those Civilizations which keep to themselves and live a peaceable life gradually become soft and wither away? Didn't Ancient Egypt continue for thousands of years by constantly conquering?

Perhaps something to keep in the back of our minds as we move on to Assyria and Civilizations past that.

Robby

Durant starts to tell us about Assyria:--"Three hundred miles north of Babylon, another civilization had appeared. Forced to maintain a hard military life by the mountain tribes always threatening it on every side, it had in time overcome its assailants, had conquered its parent cities in Elam, Sumeria, Akkad and Babylonia, had mastered Phoenicia and Egypt, and had for two centuries dominated the Near East with brutal power.

"Sumeria was to Babylonia, and Babylonia to Assyria, what Crete was to Greece, and Greece to Rome -- the first created a civilization, the second developed it to its height, the third inherited it, added little to it, protected it, and transmitted it as a dying gift to the encompassing and victorious barbarians."

Let us pause because Durant has packed a lot of information into those few sentences.

1 - Because there were barbarians constantly attacking it, Assyria was "forced" to lead a hard military life.
2 - With this strength, it then attacked and conquered the civilizations named above.
3 - Some cultures create a civilization, some develop it, some inherit and just protect it, while others merely transmit it to those conquering it.

Is this what we mean by "progress" of Mankind?

Robby

Justin, Durant says, "Barbarism is like the jungle; it never admits its defeat; it waits patiently for centuries to recover the territory it lost." I guess you don't have to worry about any change. If human beings continue as they have for eons, barbarism will always be responded to by the violence called war, whether I consider war an unacceptable solution to differences or not. I am absolutely sure with the many, many brilliant minds in the world that a solution to conflict that is not fighting wars could be found.

It seems to me that Carolyn is repeating a myth when she says if she had an easy life she would not be as caring a person as she is. Through circumstance I've known many people who had easy lives and were richer and had less pain and suffering than I could perceive, partly because they had the resources to pay for excellent medical help, good nutritious food and the kind of exercise many of us cannot afford. Most of them are extremely caring people who do everything they can to help their fellow man.

I know such a person right now, a wealthy and healthy man who is wonderful to his family and donates money and his time to those in need. He is, in fact, the one who paid for very expensive brace repairs which I couldn't afford, so I'd be able to get out of this wheelchair and be mobile at least part of the time. He is one of the writers I publish, and we've never met.

Dave Thomas, who recently died, was like this. He contributed huge amounts of money to help for victims of kidney illness, helped with adoptions, and donated large amounts of money to universities such as Duke.

I refuse to believe that conquest and war contribute to the progress of mankind. They continue old myths and traditions which have been in existence for thousands of centuries and hold civilization back, as far as I'm concerned. In my opinion, the money and time put into these conquests and wars would be better spent if they were put into education that would show these people how to better their countries and themselves.

Mal

Some of you may be interested in a BIGGER PERSPECTIVE OF HISTORY published in an article this morning.

Robby

Isn't that what we're doing here in this discussion, gaining a bigger perspective of history? Now if we only had the courage to use the increased knowledge we've acquired because of Durant's books and sharing our views to change what we can.

Mal

Robby,

Could your post #97 be the Evolution of Civilization just as Darwinian Evolution expressed his sense of Evolution of the animal world?

Jere

Every morning, or about, I go downstairs where my daughter and family lives and have coffee with them before they take off for the day, or else I mind the kids for a few hours like this morning. Every day I hear my daughter or SIL give their kids a short lesson in life either by example or by a gentle reminder. This morning it was about commitment and ‘sulking’. The gerbel’s cage had to be cleaned and the kids resented having to be pushed to do it. My SIL gently reminded them about their responsibilities and had to do it whether they felt like it or not and no sulking was to be tolerated.

That is the only thing that we can pass on to future generations, our values. MAL, I also think that we can and should make every effort to stop violence and wars and everybody should pass along to the next generation what we have learned that is of value.

My daughter is so much like me it’s uncanny. We think alike even if today she thinks like I used to think when I was her age and we get into some arguments sometimes. Seniors evolve, become more tolerant, do not get swayed by passions – yes, we still have them – but acquire wisdom which should be transmitted without being pushed aside by the impatience of youth who want everything instantly and acquire it their own way.

The superstitions and traditions of a group gives way to the love of money, possessions, etc., which then leads back to barbarism.

Is not our road rage, rink rage barbarism?

What about all the threats going back and forth now in The News? Are we a civilized world?

Durant says civilizations contain some traits or strains of barbarism...is that what I read a few posts ago?

Linda

Below is a link to a poem by Dr. Robert Bancker Iadeluca which I think is very appropriate in this discussion right now.
Identity Crisis

My gosh, Mal, speaking of History, you dredged that up from one of your files. I guess it is appropriate, isn't it?

Robby

The four cities that were in the state of Assyria were:--

1 - Ashur -- now called Kala'at-Sherghat
2 - Arbela -- now called Irbil
3 - Kalakh -- now called Nimrud
4 - Nineveh -- now called Kuyunjik.

I never cease to be amazed that cities that existed thousands of years ago are still there!! I guess only a citizen of a Western Civilization is amazed at things like that.

Robby

Robby I love the poem Identity Crisis and I identify with the dove with a spear in her beak. Mal thanks for reprinting this. fp

Keep in mind that Mal does all the artwork that accompanies each of the articles she publishes.

Robby

"The god Ashur gave his name to a city (and finally to all Assyria)> There the earliest of the nation's kings had their residence, until its exposure to the heat of the desert and the attacks of the neighboring Babylonians led Ashur's rulers to build a secondary capital in cooler Nineveh -- named also after a god, Nina, the Ishtar of Assyria.

"Here, in the heyday of Ashurbanipal, 300,000 people lived, and all the western Orient came to pay tribute to the Universal King."

Let us step back for some perspective. Are we talking about a small community of "primitive people?" How many cities in America or anywhere in the Western Civilization today have more than 300,000 population?

Robby

Thanks for that little detour, Malryn! Marvelous choice of artwork! Super marvelous music! For a minute there, I thought my husband had turned on our CD player! Hey, the poem wasn't bad either, Robby ol' pal!

Nice to have you with us, Jeryn. I told you this forum was fun!!

Robby

"The first great name in Assyrian history is Tiglath-Pileser I. He slew 120 lions on foot, and 800 from his chariot. 'In my fierce valor I marched against the people of Qummuh, conquered their cities, carried off their booty, their goods and their property without reckoning, and burned their cities with fire -- destroyed and devastated them...The people of Adansh left their mountains and embraced my feet. I imposed taxes upon them.'

"In every direction he led his armies, conquering the Hittites, the Armenians, and forty other nations, capturing Babylon, and frightening Egypt into sending him anxious gifts."

Here we are again. As we examine the Progress of Mankind, can there be any doubt that "progress" means conquer and conquer and conquer -- or have I missed something?

Robby

During times [too few and far between] of peace, mankind made the "real" progress in civilization, methinks, Robby. Story telling, art, music, paper, science, medicine, the printing press... I'm sure all of you can name many more. I guess one could argue that the conquering part had to come first?

Sargon, Hammurabi, Tiglath-Pilaser, Thutmose lll, Xerxes, Alexander, Ceasar, Hannibal, Vespasian, Charlemagne, Genghis Kahn, Napoleon, Hitler, Saddam Husein- the conquerors march across the centuries, killing, raping, and burning civilization. What do these guys have in common? What did they want that they did not have? Why, for example, did Saddam want Kuwait? He had everything. He had the support of the U.S. He had the Western world for a market. He sits on top of an enormous quantity of oil which he sold through a cartel. He had great wealth. Did he feel insecure for some reason? Was someone chalenging him? I don't know the answers to those questions. Perhaps, as we advance through the centuries with Durant and examine each of these conquerors in turn we will get some answers or perhaps only clues. It bothers me that I do not know why Saddam attacked his neighbor. If I cannot understand Saddam's motives how can I hope to understand the motives of Tiglath-Pilaser? Perhaps someone closer to Middle Eastern Politics than I am can explain.

I see the conquerors attacking and destroying but I don't see them building anything but their own capitals and a few monuments. Such action is not human progress. I think we focus on the wrong sphere when we focus on the conqueror. Progress takes place when we can feed ourselves and have shelter from the weather and no fear of attack . Then we have time to think about improving and ensuring a supply of food, clothing, and shelter. It is the improvements we make in daily living that constitute human progress. It is the acquisition of knowledge that constitutes human progress. It is acceptance of the Golden Rule that makes progress possible-not attack and Counter-attack.

Justin gives both questions and possible answers:--

"Sargon, Hammurabi, Tiglath-Pilaser, Thutmose lll, Xerxes, Alexander, Ceasar, Hannibal, Vespasian, Charlemagne, Genghis Kahn, Napoleon, Hitler, Saddam Husein- the conquerors march across the centuries, killing, raping, and burning civilization. What do these guys have in common? What did they want that they did not have? Perhaps, as we advance through the centuries with Durant and examine each of these conquerors in turn we will get some answers or perhaps only clues.

"I see the conquerors attacking and destroying but I don't see them building anything but their own capitals and a few monuments. Such action is not human progress.

"Progress takes place when we can feed ourselves and have shelter from the weather and no fear of attack. It is the improvements we make in daily living that constitute human progress. It is the acquisition of knowledge that constitutes human progress. It is acceptance of the Golden Rule that makes progress possible-not attack and Counter-attack."

There is an old maxim in labor relations which says: "Negotiate from strength." The strong person can always afford to be "kind." The rich person can afford to be "generous." Is it possible that the lesson of "civilization" is that conquest and progress work in tandem -- and as Jeryn says: "One could argue that the conquering part had to come first?"

Robby

One of the descriptive lines above says that Assyria was a mixture of Semitic and non-Semitic tribes. A long time ago I noticed that when tribes from elsewhere mix in an area, an golden age often results several centuries later. As an example: Greece, where the various peoples invaded, Dorians, Ionians, etc. and an age of literature, culture, art evolved. After the barbarians invaded a fading Roman Empire and the peoples had some centuries to mix, the Renaissance resulted. In each golden age, incredibly talented people were born who were the greatest in their fields such as Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo.

Justin: A belated thanks for comparing civilization and culture. If civilization is a perfect situation, I think we come close but aren't quite civilized.

"Assyria was a mixture of Semitic and non-Semitic tribes. A long time ago I noticed that when tribes from elsewhere mix in an area, a golden age often results several centuries later."

A most interesting concept, Sharon. In the area of genetics, it is often demonstrated that hybrids are stronger than animals or plants with a single genetic origin.

Robby

While Alexander conquered, I don't think he belongs in a list of evil people. I believe he was quite understanding towards the cultures in the countries he conquered. He married Roxanne, an Afghani princess, reasoninig, I believe, that his conquered peoples would see him as tolerant towards everyone.

I think Saddam perceived weakness in the West and didn't think anyone would stop him from invading Kuwait which he claimed was a historic province of Iraq. As well, he wanted access to the sea. When Bill Clinton was having all his troubles, Saddam started sabre rattling again.

The Saudi's stood by and let the Americans fight their fight. The American base on holy Saudi soil so enraged Osama bin Laden that it was one of his excuses for attacking America. He also had his eye on taking over the Saudi oil industry. Add him to the list even though, thankfully, he didn't succeed.

I put Ninevah in a Google search and had too many sites to choose from. I got sidetracked on a web page called -Assyria (yesterday today and tomarrow) and read about the 'ethnic cleanisng" of the Assyrian peoples in WWone and every since. I was very surprised at this knowledge I had never ever read about this before unless these are the Kurds that we hear of being moved around and killed in Iraq. I think it began in the area of Turkey where Ninevah was. I am going back there and learn a lot more of this. That is one thing I do love about this discussion Story of Civilization, it brings me the old story and in the modern world of computers I find the new stories and it makes it all so close. Not Ten Thousand years Ago which might be considered not important now but the Now of those places. It is too much almost to think of a people like the Assyrians being so great for so many hundreds of years and then just clinging on to their "tribal heritage" down to our modern times. Fp

While addressing his military commanders at Obersalzburg, a week before the invasion of Poland, and the start of World War II, Adolph Hitler speaks of his orders "to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of Polish race or language," and concludes his remarks by saying: "WHO STILL TALKS NOWADAYS OF THE EXTERMINATION OF THE ARMENIANS?" Hitler had made a study of the annihilation of the Armenians by Germany's WWI ally, Turkey. It seems that some things continue down through the centuries. Mass murder ala Assyrian life.

And I will add, is mass annihilation part of our Oriental Heritage too, or is it just in all of us human beings under certain conditions?

But,after knowing so much about history, do we learn from past mistakes???

Excerpts from an article by an American foreign correspondent:

"First, the Allies agreed to an ethnic cleansing of Germans from Eastern Europe and from the third of German territory that was to be annexed by the U.S.S.R. and Poland.

Fifteen million German civilians were evicted at gunpoint from their ancestral homes--the largest forced migration in history. At least four million of them died during the expulsions. Some German scholars believe the true figure is six million.

Then there was the infamous Yalta conference, from Feb 4th to 11th 1945. There Churchill and dying U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt met with Stalin to secretly divide up Europe. They produced a disaster that was to be far worse than the Munich sell-out of 1938.

In a mere week, the two western leaders turned victory into defeat. After waging a titanic war to save Europe from Hitler's tyranny, at Yalta, Churchill and Roosevelt ended up handing over half of Europe to Stalin's Asiatic tyranny. They merely substituted Stalin for Hitler. With bitterest irony, Stalin's communist empire proved even more of a threat to the western democracies than Hitler's Germany.

A discussion of the Yalta conference is a little out of place at this point in the conversation. We are just entering Assyria. However, Robby may allow a slight, quick diversion. The issues at Yalta were primarily concerned with reparations, multiple votes in the U.N. for the soviet Union, and a commitment from Stalin that he would enter the war against Japan. An additional question concerned France and whether it should have a sector in post war Germany along with the Soviets, The U.S. and Britain. That issue was resolved by the soviets who objected because they thought the contribution of the French to the outcome of the War was minimal. However, they agreed if the French sector was carved out of the British and American sectors in Germany. The British and the Americans had established a presence in Germany by attacking from France and the west. The Russians had attacked from the east and therefore had a presence in Germany, Austria, and Poland. This issue was not addressed at Yalta. It was later. There was no carving up of Europe at Yalta. Germany was partioned into four separate sectors. When the war ended The U.S. and Britain played their parts in liberating Europe. The Russians gave up nothing and shouldered their way into all of Eastern Europe. It was the Marshall Plan that financed Europe until the western countries were able to stand alone.The source for this material is the Hopkins diaries. It is a primary source that you may examine at your leisure.

I was surprised to read that the Assyrians were basically vegetarians. Just fish for protein? I suppose that there was lots of bread and beer. That seems to be the basic early diet of the region. But building an army on turnips and lettuce?

Private bankers loaning at 25% interest? No wonder that it was cheaper to just go out and loot another tribe or city.

You think Saddam wanted access to the Sea. That is an interesting possibility. I have to look at the map. But unless Kuwait was exacting exorbitant tarrifs for sea access, why would it be so important to him. It's hard to think Kuwait would do that. They were fat and happy with what they had in oil without gauging Saddam. Back to Assyria. The introduction includes so much combat it is difficult to distinguish any significant peaceful periods. I do note that a Queen ruled for three years. Like the Egyptians she was the only female ruler in the entire history of the civilization.I also note that it was Tilath lll who started the policy of population transference to dilute a captured people's identity.

Terrific posts! And while, as a couple of you indicated, we must not let ourselves stray too far from Durant, nevertheless your posts are most relevant and "past-present" comparisons help us to see both past and present.
Ellen wonders:--"Building an army on turnips and lettuce?"
My reaction -- stallions and bulls are vegetarians! (I happen to be one too but I don't think that relates to Durant.)
Robby

"All Assyrian history was death and taxes, first for Assyria's neighbors, then for herself."
"Ashurnasirpal II conquered a dozen petty states, brought much booty home from the wars, cut out with his own hand the eyes of princely captives, enjoyed his harem, and passed respectably away.
"Shalmaneser III carried these conquests as far as Damascus, fought costly battles, killing 16,000 Syrians in one engagement, built temples, levied tribute, and was deposed by his son in a violent revolution.
"Sammuramat ruled as queen-mother for three years, and provided a frail historical basis (for this is all that we know of her) for the Greek legend of Semiramis -- half goddess and half queen, great general, great engineer and great statesman -- so attractively detailed by Diodorus the Sicilian.
"Tiglath-Pileser III gathered new armies, reconquered Armenia, overran Syria and Babylonia, made vassal cities of Damascus, Samaria and Babylon, extended the rule of Assyria from the Caucasus to Egypt -- tired of war, became an excellent administrator, built many temples and palaces, held his empire together with an iron hand, and died peacefully in bed.

Sargon II, an officer in the army, made himself king by a Napoleonic coup d'etat - led his troops in person, and took in every engagement the most dangerous post, defeated Elam and Egypt, reconquered Babylonia, and received the homage of the Jews, the Philistines, even of the Cypriote Greeks -- ruled his empire well, encouraged arts and letters, handicrafts and trade, and died in a victorious battle that definitely preserved Assyria from invasion by the wild Cimmerian hordes."

From that gory history above, two phrases stand out in my mind:--

1 - "deposed by his son" -- this was mentioned in earlier civilizations - was there no familial feeling in those days? Were people still "primitive?"
2 - "tired of war" - was war a game to those rulers - like chess?

How do you react to this?

Robby

For those confused between two similar words -- Syria and Assyria -- and I was one of them until I read this article, you may find the answer in this ARTICLE from the Journal of Near Eastern Studies. I found it most helpful as I read of Durant's Assyria and the Syria of today.

Robby

Once again a MAP to keep us oriented as to that part of the world we are discussing.

Robby

Meat is second-hand food and vegetarian animals eat vast quantities of grain cultivated on arable land that has to be cleared in order to plant grains to feed those animals. If we like meat, I think it is because meat provides large amounts of protein even in small quantities. Did not primitive man eat only meat and wild fruit?

I will refrain from commenting on stallions and bulls. Ha!

Does the behavior of people have something to do with where and how they live? Durant says of Assyria that it was "forced to maintain a hard military life by the mountain tribes always threatening it on every side..." That says something to me. If the harsh geography of Assyria and its environs and the harsh people who inhabited it created a nation of warriors, that says more about why making conquests seemed to be a very real part of the behavior of that nation's rulers. Remember here that we do not understand the geography of this place or the people who inhabited it any more than we understood the geography and people of Afghanistan before last September.

In the article for which Robby posted a link yesterday (post # 99), David Christian, professor at San Diego University talks about how cosmology, geology, archaeology and evolutionary biology have contributed to what they call "Big History". Braudel says geology and climate also affect the way people behave and react. Ecological Imperialism is mentioned. Is this part of what made Assyria's rulers do what they did?

In the same article Christian says, "Just as creation myths provided ancient cultures with an account of the origin of life and their place in a larger story, 'big history' can provide the same service, although more scientifically." Have I (we) been looking at ancient history through too narrow a view?

What is the reaction of a country which is attacked? Historically, it reacts in kind. Justin, the Golden Rule could presumably then be translated to mean "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", couldn't it?

Does war become a tradition and habit? Did we not react traditionally and historically when we responded to the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001?

I believe Robby asked if war is a game. Are not practice for war called "War Games"? It seems to me that at least some of the ways we complex humans behave as nations is based on habit and traditions that do not necessarily lead to the advancement of civilization.

Mal

A map of the Assyrian Empire.
Map of Assyria

Clothing in Ancient Assyria

Did you know that umbrellas were used in Ancient Assyria?

Mal

Thank you, Mal, for those VERY EXCELLENT links. I recommend to all participants here that you take the time to visit them. They help to give us an all-around view of their people.

Robby

Well after following all the links in the discussion this morning I know some more(a litle more) about these people. The modern use of Assyrian that I was reading several days ago is more clear to me now since Robby's link re: The words Syria and assyria . I am still amazed though that we can know anything of a people Civilized for so many thousands of years and now just tribes here and there. I am sure the study of history of each area Durant writes of will bring me the same amazement as I follow up and read more about what is going on today in these areas.However the study of the Fertile Cresent is special right now isn't it. fp

MAL Umbrellas first used in Assyria? Understandable I guess. Did it not once rain there for forty days and forty nights? Thanks for the links. I have always been confused between Syria, Assyria, and the modern day Kurds. I begin now to get things more sorted in my mind.

Trevor, I don't know that umbrellas were first used in Assyria. They were used in China, too, and in both places as parasols, as well as a method of staying dry in a rain or snowstorm.

Mal

Trevor:--Good to see you back again. I realize you had been lurking.

Faith says:--"I am sure the study of history of each area Durant writes of will bring me the same amazement as I follow up and read more about what is going on today in these areas. However the study of the Fertile Crescent is special right now isn't it?"

Yes, we are doing the Fertile Crescent right now, but I have a hunch that our understanding of the development of Europe and its current day activities will become more meaningful as its "oriental" heritage springs more easily to our minds."

Robby

A bit more about the character of the rulers (and perhaps population) of Assyria--

"The severed head of the Elamite king was brought to Ashurbanipal as he feasted with his queen in the palace garden. He had the head raised on a pole in the midst of his guests and the royal revel went on. Later the head was fixed over the gate of Nineveh, and slowly rotted away.

"The Elamite general, Dananu, was flayed alive, and then was bled like a lamb. His brother had his throat cut, and his body was divided into pieces, which were distributed over the country as souvenirs.

"It never occurred to Ashurbanipal that he and his men were brutal. These clean-cut penalities were surgical necessities in his attempt to remove rebellions and establish discipline among the heterogeneous and turbulent peoples, from Ethiopia to Armenia, and from Syria to Media. It was his obligation to maintain this legacy intact. He boasted of the peace that he had established in his empire."

But would you agree with me that we have read enough of these behaviors to "prove" Durant's comment that "all Assyrian history was death and taxes." Let us look at another aspect of the Assyrian civilization ---

"The government of Ashurbanipal -- which ruled Assyria, Babylonia, Armenia, Media, Palestine, Syria, Phoenicia, Sumeria, Elam and Egypt -- was without doubt the most extensive administrative organization yet seen in the Mediterranean or Near Eastern world. Only Hammurabi and Thutmose III had approached, and Persia alone would equal it, before the coming of Alexander.

"In some ways it was a liberal empire. Its larger cities retained considerable local autonomy. Each nation in it was left its own religion, law and ruler, provided it paid its tribute promptly."

So it was also a "peaceful" empire. Your comments, please?

Robby

They are all over the news these days. A special on Kabul under the Talaban on the other night covers much of the same materials. Do you supposse Osama got his ideas from the Durants?

Claire-

PS I like this quote. "Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "

Nice to see you again, Winsum!! Maybe he got his ideas from his ancestors.
Did you see a similarity between what the tribesmen are doing in Afghanistan and what we are discussing here?

Robby

Well, the Durants got their ideas from researching history, Winsum, so probably Osima could be expected to know that history of his own area.Welcome to the Discussion. It is getting more fascinating everyday. What I think Robby about a peaceful kingdom-A Repressive Military Government is apt to have a peaceful population at least on the surface but it didnt last. Of course it lasted so long that even in the best research they argue over dates and have events happening hundreds of years apart and no one resolves all the questions. Still Durants research still stands. fp

Ancient personal history.

a small cliche (me included) took over the running of a coop nursey school forcing it's views on the others which were to fire the teacher. The others dropped out. the school almost self distructed. I learned that heavy handed doesn't work at all in a so called democracy.

I'm so impatient with the slowness of giving everyone his say, I guess I'm really not very civilized in that way. Democrrocy is very HARD. Currently there are all these old war lards vying for power in the new afghanistan. Here's hopeing they adjust without further bloodshed . . . . Yes I say many parallels. I'm following closly, it's an obsseion. IN those days though there wasn't the ease of communication we all have now. I wonder how that would have affected "HISTORY"

Clare

Claire, you say:--"Currently there are all these old war lords vying for power in the new afghanistan. Here's hoping they adjust without further bloodshed."

Based upon what we've been seeing regarding that area of the world in ancient times, Claire, do you think they will adjust without bloodshed?

Robby

If you look at the map that Robby gave us in 129 you will see what I think is an Iraqui seaport on the Persian Gulf. Do I read that wrong? It seems to me that during the Gulf War a Marine amphibious force landed there.If that is the case, we are once again left without motive for Saddam's attack.

The Golden Rule applies before an attack, an eye for and eye is retribution.A retribution rule is inappropriate here.If attacked, apply the survival rule.Arretez.

"The army was the most vital part of the government. Assyria recognized frankly that government is the nationalization of force, and her chief contributions to progress were in the art of war. Chariots, cavalry, infantry and sappers were organized into flexible formation. Siege mechanisms were as highly developd as among the Romans. Strategy and tactics were well understood.
"Tactics centered about the idea of rapid movement making possible a piecemeal attack -- so old is the secret of Napoleon. Iron-working had grown to the point of encasing the warrior with armor to a degree of stiffness rivaling a medieval knight. Even the archers and pikemen wore copper or iron helmets, padded loin-cloths, enormous shields, and a leather skirt covered with metal scales.

"The weapons were arrows, lances, cutlasses, maces, clubs, slings and battle-axes. Thge nobility fought from chariots in the van of the battle, and the king, in his royal chariot, usually led them in person. Generals had not yet learned to die in bed."

Do you believe that the army is the most vital part of most governments? Do you believe that the "art of war" is the chief contribution to progress in most governments?

Robby

General Rule of Near East in Assyrian times:--

1 - All captives in war might be enslaved or slain.
2 - Soldiers were rewarded for every severed head they brought in from the field.

Justin: You are right about the tiny bit of land Iraq had that was access to the sea. Maybe Saddam was exercising what he thought was Iraq's historic right to the province of Kuwait just like Hitler exercised his right to invade Austria because of the German speaking population there. Kuwait resisted and Austria did not.

I was interested to see that the Assyrians were the ones to divide the circle into 360 degrees and also invented longitude and latitude. Does this mean they thought the world was round? For a people interested in war and taxes, this is a fairly sophisticated extension of math principles. Could they use mathematical principles to further their desire for war? If bank loans were 25%, was this simple or compound interest that was charged?

Those articles on Assyrian rulers and wars are so complex, it is hard to remember all the names, dates and details. Maybe if they had names like Eisenhower and MacArthur, they'd be easier to sort out. I don't think war was a game but was a way of life. Eventually we will be contrasting Sparta and Athens. I'm not familiar with Greek geography to know whether the physical environment of Sparta was different from Athens but I thought that geography influences culture. A city on the sea might look to trade as it's option whereas a landlocked area might look to war. This is just musing - it's not based on any information.

As for wars, they don't have to be fought with weapons. They can be fought with economics where the rich countries bring the poor countries to their 'knees' with unpayable debt loads.

Sharon, regarding your remark that "As for wars, they don't have to be fought with weapons. They can be fought with economics where the rich countries bring the poor countries to their 'knees' with unpayable debt loads." You may recall Durant's comment was that "Assyrian history was death and taxes." And then, of course, there was always what Durant called "tribute" from the vanquished.

Robby

It sounds as if civilization has evolved (or regressed) from "effeminate Babylonia" to Assyrian bloodthirsty thugs and law by force. "Do what I tell you to, and think the way I think, or I'll cut off your head."

I did read in Our Oriental Heritage that science and mathematics advanced in Assyria because it was a military state, but I can't find where I read it.

Makes sense to me. Empires which exist mainly for conquest and domination don't have much time or money to spend on foolishness like art and literature, do they.

Mal

Did you know that some of our modern dogs are descended from the ASSYRIAN DOG? You may find this interesting!

Robby

When Ashurbanipal and his queen were feasting in the garden, and the King of Elams head was brought in and placed on a pole in the middle of the feast, and the revelry continued.........

In the next paragraph, we are told that it never occured to them that they were brutal, these clean cut penalties were necessities.

It is necessary to kill your enemy in time of war, but to put their head on a pole in the middle of dinner and continue to eat, drink, and be merry, is not only brutal, it is sadistic and barbaric. Death or slavery were the only options to these barbarians. Death may have been the better of the two options.

Fifi:--Would you agree that morality differs from one civilization to another - both geographically and time-wise? For example, sexual customs in some of the African tribes are different from ours. And sexual customs in our own nation are different now from what they were a hundred years ago.

On what basis can we say that putting a head on a pole is sadistic and barbaric? Is it possible that the Ancient Assyrians would have considered death by electrocution barbaric rather than a quick beheading?

Robby

"If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism."

- - - Thomas Sowell

"Civilization is a stream with banks. The stream is sometimes filled with blood from people killing, stealing, shouting and doing the things historians usually record, while on the banks, unnoticed, people build homes, make love, raise children, sing songs, write poetry and even whittle statues. The story of civilization is the story of what happened on the banks. Historians are pessimists because they ignore the banks for the river"

- - - Will Durant

"The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false."

--Paul Johnson

"Civilization is a stream with banks........Historians are pessimists because they ignore the banks for the river".

But what happens in the river changes forever what happens on the banks as new populations establish themselves there with their new beliefs, ideas, cultures, languages, and government.

Robert, you ask on what basis putting a head on a pole is sadistic and barbaric. Killing in war, even if you were the agressor, is final and beheading was practiced in that time. It wasn't the beheading that bothered me so much as the display at dinner with the continued revelry. As I read of their methods of killing and the building of monuments with the corpses of their conquests, blinding captives before killing them, killing women and children who were not combatants. These people seemed to relish and revel in the torture of other humans, if you believe their writings. It's the relish and revel that says sadism to me.

In a world which has the conflict of opposites as part of its inherent nature, peace is an illusory goal. Nor in reality is there even such a thing as neutrality and nonalignment. This is a world of struggle. The word "peace" has only a relative meaning. The notion that a society, civilization, or an individual can exist in a continuously inert state is an illusory one.. As soon as one kind of war ends, another kind of war begins.

We live in a state of perpetual war. Back and forth go the "ghostly armies" of construction and destruction. Sometimes one and sometimes the other side holds the field of triumph. (Hate to call it "wins")

War always brings about the brutalization of most of the men who fight in it and yet, paradoxically, the spiritualization of a minority.

PS. It is often stated that history repeats itself. Does it have to? Is it inevitable?

I will have to re read and digest what has preceded before making a comment. Just wanted to say my life has calmed a bit and I have finally opened the package holding my copy of Our Oriental Heritage.It is my intention to read and see where we are and how I feel about what I have read and the comments of the participants here.

anna

Mal and Hubert are asking the same thing. Is there an alternative response to violence? Must we always follow tradition and defend our selves? What if we just took the hit , turned the other cheek to the Arsibanipals of this world? Would they go away and leave us alone? Would they let us convince them that we are not their enemy? Would they let us educate them in the ways of modern civilization? Perhaps, Arsibanipal would have our heads on pikes at his dinner table.

Of course, they cannot all be as angry as the Taliban detainee who had to be restrained before shipment to cuba. There must be some we could reason with.

My guess is that in addition to the actions we have taken thus far we also must try to educate those we have in hand for we cannot keep them in cuba forever. Can we also enter Afghanistan and begin an education program designed to bring the Afgans in to the modern world. Yes, that we can do. But could we do it before the attack? Ho', Talk to Congress or to the President on that one. Politics is the art of the possible.

Justin, you may have taken my post out of context. It had no reference to any-one particular war or event, or time, for that matter.

I understand. Mals view, I think, is also general. I am the guilty specifier.

Fifi wrote: "These people seemed to relish and revel in the torture of other humans, if you believe their writings. It's the relish and revel that says sadism to me."

On the one hand it is easy to agree (and I do), but then on the other....how do we deal with the same delight in gore that permeates the early parts of the Christian Old Testament and the Jewish Tanach, as well as enormous stretches of our "superiour" Western civilization? Most of the time we mealy-mouth about it, give special reasons for it, just say huffily that "it's different", etc. I've heard these lines of "reasoning" over and over again all my life, and I must say I have now come to think they are all rubbish.

Our disapproval of the gore (speaking generally and not specifically to Fifi's comment)is selective depending upon our times and our viewpoints, how good we need to feel about ourselves, etc. I do, however, believe that we are more strongly motivated not indulge in viscious conduct (though I'm dubious that it has as much to do with out Western outlook), but the dark side of this, I think, is that we engage in a lot of fudging and lying about it, whereas in the past the heads would simply have been stuck on the pikes. Our current "goodness" is sometimes a bit like Flip Wilson's Geraldine defending her shortcomings: "The devil made me do it."

Perhaps the establishment and worldwide spread of the Consumer Society as the ideal in place of religiously and ideologically oriented ones will prove to be a greater promoter of peace. When the pleasure of the great mass of the population is the basic good, rather than the promotion of the agendas of religion and great men or ethic/racial/patriotic goals, etc. the smooth functioning of society relies on promoting the pleaure principle to the max, and war is not conducive to this. We look to quick "surgical" neutralization of international problems so that the great mass of people may continue the search for pleasure and satisfaction which keeps the economic machine humming.

When it is Good that everyone should feel good; and our political leaders are less esteemed than entertainers and athletes, perhaps the ability of these leaders to wage war supported by a submissive mass of people is becoming neutralized.

Perhaps the will of the gods and their earthly interpreters and promoters has not been a consistent plus for civilization.

Jack

Anna:--Good to know that you now have your copy of "Our Oriental Heritage" in hand and that you are ready to read it and follow along with us. In the meantime, use the GREEN quotes above as your guide and share your thoughts with us.

Jack (kevxu):--Welcome to our forum! You say:--"Our disapproval of the gore is selective depending upon our times and our viewpoints, how good we need to feel about ourselves. We engage in a lot of fudging and lying about it, whereas in the past the heads would simply have been stuck on the pikes."

Are we talking here about hypocrisy? Do we have the same traits as those ancient warriors but refuse to admit to it either to others or to ourselves? To use Jack's term, is there that "dark side" to each of us which we pretend doesn't exist? Is this part of the "heritage" to which Durant refers in the title?

Robby

HUBERT - Post #162, I agree with you entirely and why not call things as they are? There is always one side that "wins", but when you say that "...paradoxically, the spiritualization of the minority." How can soldiers become 'spiritualized'? Don't soldiers already come to fight in war with their own beliefs and in war, still become brutal? It comes out more in war only because soldiers are faced with death on a daily basis.

There is a purpose in the DEPORTATION of a population. It takes out of their country of origins a large number of people and transplants them into another after the conquest and thus weakens their patriotism, sometimes their beliefs, their language, their culture.

DIASPORA is more brutal. It spreads a people in all parts of the known world and for that population to keep true to their religion, language and culture is a life long struggle. Jews have been able to remain faithful to their deep-rooted culture because their religlious beliefs strengthened them. After centuries of living outside their land, they still remained Jewish and kept their religion and culture, sometimes losing their language as they lived in all parts of the world for centuries.

Robby - Yes, I believe there is a dark side to each and every one of us and those of us who are believers need the help of God to try to keep it contained - without success sometimes - or else we might fall into permanent disrepair.

I am anxious to see how/if Durant will offer a solution to the problem of sadistic cruelty of humans. So far he has not but, of course it's not his job.

Eloise:--I don't believe that Durant will offer any solutions. As a historian, he sees his job as "relating a tale." Perhaps some participants here may offer "solutions" to sadistic cruelty.

Robby

Have spent several hours reading. I have stayed in Chapter X at least for the present. The thing that struck me was on the first page where Durant says a truth we would all do well to remember. I am quoting directly from my book. "For barbarism is always around civilization, amid it and beneath it, ready to engulf it by arms, mass migration, or unchecked fertility. Barbarism is like the jungle; it never admits defeat;it waits patiently for centuries to recover the territory it has lost."

We can only look at our own country and see that we have MONSTERS among us. The Timoth McVeighs,the Edgar Gacy's,the serial killers, the spouse abusers and child abusers. The lynchings , the gangs, even in sports where one parent has now killed another.

Barbarism may be called by other names but that is what I would call all of the above. As Durant says even religeon did not curb barbarism That is certainly true. We have the priests who molested children in thier care and whose behavior was ignored by the heirarchy of the church. We have religeous leaders who cheat and lie, who admonish their congregations against sinning and who sin without conscience and seem to feel it was okay for them but not for the parishioners.

The rulers and conquerers justifed their behavior and people still do that. We may not be as brutal but only because we cant.

Sorry I didnt make a note about what I wanted to address from others post but whoever said something to the effect that our desire for material things keeps us trying to be civilized. We dont want our homes, our cars and our possessions taken from us so we try to stay civilized.

This area in Virginia has the highest rate of child abuse in the state. We also have a low unemployment rate so it is not poverty that drives the child abuse. Drugs and alcoholism and from what I read a selfishness seems to do so.

I am not as appalled by the brutality of the Assyrian culture as others. Not because it wasnt horrible but because that was the way it would seem all of the early civilizations were.

Back to my reading. I do want to start at the beginning but will attempt to keep up with the present.

anna

A very powerful post, Anna. Thank you.

Reactions, please?

Robby

Robby wrote: "Are we talking here about hypocrisy?" i.e. condemning the gore and violence of the past selectively, as well as tending to hide our own.

There are no lack of inscriptions in Egypt wherein the Pharoahs testify (ditto in Assyria, I'm sure, but haven't done any reading) to the fact that their gods have aided them in overcoming their enemies and that they rejoice in honoring those gods for their divine blessings and interventions in butchering the enemy. This, of course, is braggardly nonsense to us.

But then, with no little trouble, we can find the Hebrews overrunning Canaan, murdering the Midianites, slaughtering the people of Dinah after they had been circumcized as Jews, etc, etc., and for two millenia a large portion of the earth's people have delighted in these stories and seen them as good - because their god said to do it and supposedly brought victory.

If entire civilizations can have the cankers in their makeup that flaw individuals, then I would have to say a resounding, Yes! This is certainly hypocrisy. But the problem may not in the end be so much one of hypocrisy, as a need to justify (tame, perhaps) many of the most ferocious human emotions by tying them to some divine sanction/plan/purpose. But of course if we can anoint our butcheries with the balm of righteousness, then we have to disparage similar actions by people not considered "us" or by people whose heritage we do not share. Otherwise we are faced with the obvious, which is that we are dealing with some pretty ugly traits that are ancient and humanity-wide.

Perhaps the end of chaos and insecurity that Durant speaks of as marking the beginning of civilization, begins with the lie that god is on our side - in order to attempt to harness the dark forces of the human psyche.

Jack

Jack says:--"If we can anoint our butcheries with the balm of righteousness, then we have to disparage similar actions by people not considered "us" or by people whose heritage we do not share."

Is the so-called "them-us" difference one of the prime reasons for violence, whether it be between civilizations or individuals? Is Pogo's comment that "we have met the enemy and he is us" a move toward being "civilized?"

Robby

Durant writes: . "For barbarism is always around civilization, amid it and beneath it, ready to engulf it by arms, mass migration, or unchecked fertility. Barbarism is like the jungle; it never admits defeat;it waits patiently for centuries to recover the territory it has lost." (Anna's remarks were very provocative).

Maybe Durant has made a misleading - even incorrect - metaphor. Why should we believe barbarism is "like the jungle," some place Out There? Is this realistic? That barbarism is a potential rampant growth waiting to creep into our well-tended garden of civilization?

I could by this only in part - certainly plagues, droughts, etc. can promote conditions that threaten civilization(s).

But the barbarism is done by humans, it comes from within - even if we can (and desperately want to) point to external forces for spurring its appearance in our actions. The English philosopher Bernard Williams coined the term "moral luck." By this he means (forgive a very simple summary) that good people may well be only as good as their luck (their fortunate circumstances)and that given different conditions they would engage in evil. Perhaps civilizations too can run out of moral luck.

Jack

Robby, I do believe with all my heart that that single cartoon panel, which I still vividly recall, stands as one of the moral high points of the last century.

Jack

Durant continues with Assyria:--"Most often the prisoners, who would have consumed much food in a long campaign, and would have constituted a danger and nuisance in the rear, were despatched after the battle. They knelt with their backs to their captors, who beat their heads in with clubs, or cut them off with cutlasses. Scribes stood by to count the number of prisoners taken and killed by each soldier, and apportioned the booty accordingly. The king, if time permitted, presided at the slaughter.

"The nobles among the defeated were given more special treatment. Their ears, noses, hands and feet were sliced off -- or they wre thrown from high towers -- or they and their children beheaded -- or flayed alive -- or roasted over a slow fire. No compunction seems to have been felt at this waste of human life. The birth rate would soon make up for it."

What hits me in that gory tale was the picture of the Scribes (who were supposedly the more "civilized" of the society) methodically watching this scene and quietly acting like an accountant in a corporation.

Robby

Jack I think the whole point of Durants statement is barbarism is in each of us. It is hiding because we need to hide it to survive in this day and age. It has always been my own feeling that from early man to the present the strongest survived. Early on in this discussion I said it doesnt surprise me when mankind acts in a brutal way because it order to survive as mankind it was often necessary to be brutal. Now that DNA is still in our makeup. Moral luck may be a good way to explain the difference in how people behave.

As civilized people we strive to contain barbarism. Some have moral luck and find it easy to do so but then you can look at families where they seem to have moral luck as a family and stiil one or more will resort to brutality. Our laws attempt to discourage it and so we have kept it contained as much as possible.

We have just to look at our present day terriorism to realize that the appearence of containment is just that. It was not fomented by someone who had a terrible life. Osama was from a priveleged background with money and position which also seems to be the background of the American John Walker who fought for the Taliban.

We dont have to go back to Assyria to find barbarism rampant. Every dictator resorts to it, every ethnic cleansing is barbarism, in Virginia at one time people were sterilized in an attempt to eliminate mental retardation. Prisoners in our own country and military personnel have been subjected to various forms of barbarism when they are injected with disease or exposed to radiation. Companies who willfully contaminate the rivers and the water supply of whole cities knowing the effects can kill or cause serious illness are barbaric. All of this without the consent or knowledge of the victims.

So barbarism is along the edge of civilization and it awaits ...lurking, knowing that sooner or later it will have another chance.

Sometimes I enjoy reading and discussing all of this but there are times when I just want to hold the belief that man is inherently good. History I guess would make a liar out me.

anna

kevxu, it's good to see you posting here. Since you live in Greece and in Portugal before that, perhaps you can give us a different perspective.

Durant says:

"The weakness of Oriental monarchies was bound up with this addiction to violence. Not only did the subject provinces repeatedly revolt, but within the royal palace or family itself violence again and again attempted to upset what violence had established and maintained."

He also says:

"We think war less frequent today because we are conscious of the lucid intervals of peace, while history seems conscious only of the fevered crises of war."

Don't I remember, Robby, that you once posted that violence breeds violence? This is the point and the theme of many messages I've posted here. Some of you have said that responding to violence with violence is perfectly okay. I disagree. Though we consider God to be on our side and, therefore, answering attack with attack is somehow condoned, what good does it do except perpetuate old myths and traditions of violence? Until we look at this "dark side" of us and stop rationalizing what we do in the name of "Right", we'll never examine other solutions, will we?

Assyrian government, Durant says, "was primarily a instrument of war. For war was often more profitable than peace; it cemented discipline, intensified patriotism, strengthened the royal power...."

Is this truly how we want to live in the 21st century? After all, we've come a long way, baby, since Assyria --- haven't we? Have we learned anything from history at all?

Mal

"The formal head of the state was by concerted fiction the god Ashur. All pronouncements were in his name. All laws were edicts of his divine will. All taxes were collected for his treasury. All campaigns were fought to furnish him (or occasionally another deity) with spoils and glory. The king had himself described as a god, usually an incarnation of Shamash, the sun.

"The religion of Assyria, like its language, its science and its arts, was imported from Sumeria and Bablonia, with occasional adaptations to the needs of a military state."

Sound familiar?

Robby

Didn't we hear the same thing when we read about Egypt and Babylonia? Prehistoric human beings made a god out of the sun, too. Do human beings just repeat what has come down to them over a period of thousands and thousands of years? Are we such an unimaginative species?

Mal

This is way backtracking but it does give new meaning to a successful civilization that we may have labeled 'primitive' unless we read this information about newly discovered art - now the oldest known piece of art that required not only sophistication to create - but, the stones themselves had to be carried some distance to the cave site.

http://www.nature.com/nsu/020107/020107-11.html

I need to find the link but preparing for the new Curious Mind I came across the statement that the civilization that can amass the most power and energy continues till another civilization can amass more power and energy.

Seems to me although this is not one of Durants four basics to measure a society, I am reading here how at first the Egyptions amassed lots of manpower into the energy, and we are not sure what other tools, that allowed the creation of great stone edifices - the Babylonians used the energy of water to create the great gardens - each civilization in turn is out-powering the last, with the Assyrians, the first pure military state, adding new implements of war to human energy to increase the energy that gives this civilization their power.

This concept may be why we were so concerned for so long about exculisvity over 'the' Bomb. We still garner more of the world's energy and that may be why we are a super power rather than all the accolades about our form of Democracy and that we are a melting pot of the world's talent etc. etc. This concept does not bode well for 'power is might and might is right' which is the dark age thinking that keeps battered women's shelters full.

I would say, Barbara, that your comment "that the civilization that can amass the most power and energy continues till another civilization can amass more power and energy" applies to all four elements that Durant uses -- economic energy, political energy, moral energy, and mental energy.

How about you folks? Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Interesting thought......but,

1. Centers of civilization can overlap in time without one replacing the other. Egyptians and Hittites come to mind. Perhaps as communications are developed there was/is less room for several greats.

2. Boy, oh boy. Couldn't we have some discussion on the "moral energy" of the replacing civilizations. I find that the book we are talking about is not available here or in Great Britain, and is expensive and time consuming to acquire from the U.S. Therefore, I cannot thumb back to see how Durant characterizes "moral." Can anyone comment on that.....how do you think Durant might characterize the idea of more moral power?

Jack

Durant says:"Most often the prisoners, who would have consumed much food in a long campaign, and would have constituted a danger and nuisance in the rear......"

Reminds me of the Bible, didn't a prophet tell King Solomon ( or was it some other King) when he came home with prisoners after some battle, that God will punish him for disobedience , he was supposed to have killed all his enemies......" Oh well

Eloise mentions the brutality inflicted upon the non-combatant men, women and children now suffering, homeless and hungry in Afganistan, There are millions of defenseless people who become refugees in every war, in every country and civilization.

They probably suffered more than than the soldiers did, and yet were considered as just a necessary by-product of war-fare

History repeats itself even to this generation, and the chaos and insecurity never ends for the defenseless refugees.

The acquiescence of the Jewish victims in WW2 in this century resulted in their own destruction, and strengthed their resolve never to let it happen again.

I think often of the forced repatriation of the thousands of homeless, helpless refugees sent back to Russia that the allies agreed to in the final days of WW2.

Stalin's Regime was so feared and hated by a large segment of the populace, that thousands of the citizens were ready to leave their homes and withdraw with the German Army, when the Germans retreated.

These were anti-communist prisoners and civilians of Russian, Ukranian, Polish, Hungarian, Baltic and other origins, and they eventually found themselves in prison camps run by the Western Allies.

Under an Allied Agreement, made at Yalta, each country was required to execute a forced repatriation of all refugees to the country of their origin.

This was called Operation Keelhaul.

Thousands of anti-communist prisoners of war and displaced persons, including old and very sick men, women, and children were delivered in boxcars to Stalin's doorstep, by the Western Allies.

Stalin considered that most of the prisoners of war as well as the populace that withdrew with the Germans were deserters or enemies of the U.S.S.R., and as a result most of these people were sent to forced labor camps in Siberia, or were executed when they were returned.

Many committed suicide in Germany, rather than allow themselves to be extradited.

Pat

Durant shows us how many gods have come and gone, but we humans are still here and battling away. Perhaps the study of all the various religions doesn't tell us so much about the gods or god, as the case may be, but more about human beings.

Aha found the link and I'm quoting a bit from the selection - I am never happy with my interpretation of someone else's words but it was a case of my seeing the change in greater energy produced when humans engage tools than mashines and much later "the pen is mightier than the sward," which I can see as affecting and championing certain societies, but still the overwhelming 'king of the mountain' seems to emenate from "using the increased transformation of energy to redifine themselves and their enviornment."

Seems to me that is what the computer and internet age is doing now more so than the threat of 'the' bomb.

Surviving Among the Predators: How Can Ecologically Sustainable Forms of Social Metabolism Survive and Prevail Against Aggressive Ecologically Destructive Forms.

"The history of humanity has been characterized by an expanding capacity to exploit and transform the usable forms of energy within its environment...the energy and matter which flow through production systems are partially and temporarily conserved in useful forms which, by virtue of the capacity of humans to redefine themselves and their environments, stimulate increasingly complex social organization and production-enhancing modifications to the physical environment. Developing a theory of social power based on control over energy forms and flows and recasting Lotka's principle that "in evolution, natural selection favours those populations that convert the greater amount of energy"..."

On page 935 Durrant says

The third element of civilization is morality-customs and manners, conscience and charity; a law built into the spirit, and generating at last the sinse of right and wrong, the order and discipline of desire, withouth which a society disintegrates into individuals, and falls forfeit to some coherent state. Curtesy came ou of the ancient courts of Egypt, Mesopotamaia and persia; even today the Far East might teach manners and dignity to the brusque and impatient West...out of Egypt came the first cry for social justice; out of Judea the first plea for human brother-hood, the first formulation of the moral consciousness of mankind

Manners in Japan sure didn't affect the sacking of China nor WW2. And social justice in Egypt seems today to depend a lot on your sex, female or male. Which leads us to what Philosophy says that whenever we try to defend or criticize a moral belief we enter the realm of ethics.

Ethics is not concerned with specific moral rules but with the foundation of morality and with providing general priciples that will both help us evaluate the valididty of a moral rule and choose between different moralities.

An example would be some ethical theorists called utilitarians hold that any good moral rule should promote the greatest happiness for the greatest number. Other theorists, like Aristotle and Kant argue that a good moral rule helps us act in the most rational way and for some ethicists, morality is tied to self-interest at least in an abstract way, and they argue that morality is the best way of satisfying everyone's interests and still others argue that morality is only one among many sets of principles, which we may but need not choose to obey.

Aristotle's views on virtue are still in the future and to get into the mindset of Assyria I think we have to suspend our own moral judgement which only sepperates us from those that lived in this time in history. Remember Durant says on page 5

It is impossible to be scientific here; for in calling other human beings "savage" or "barbarous" we may be expressing no objective fact, but only our fierce fondness for ourselves, and out timid shyness in the presence of alien ways.

Jack:--Even without the book you are able to "thumb back" and find out what Durant said about morality. Under my name above in the Heading there is a Link to "Past SofC Discussions." Click onto that and then click onto "Part 1." Go to the very beginning when Durant discusses his economic, political, and then, thirdly, his way of approaching the moral side of each civilization.

You may have noticed that as we examine each civilization, we follow Durant in examining the four Elements in order. But at the start of the book he discusses morality in detail.

Robby

Is anyone beginning to come up with an answer to Voltaire's question in the Heading?

Robby

BARBARA - I can think of only one civilization that has amassed a certain degree of abundance in economic, political, moral, mental energy, it is the United States and their allies and their rise is not over yet. If they want to stay on top of the heap, of course, they will have to use force (barbarism?) because their technical energy (power) is greater than anyone else on earth and attacks on the West is not over yet, I think.

Only China could threaten the Western world because of their sheer number, but they still need a democratic government allowing complete freedom only a Democracy allows in order to succeed in the area of the four elements mentioned by Durant. They might have to join the English language club too and they are still 10 years behind the US in high tech, the modern key to military supremacy.

Let us not forget that the Fertile Crescent countries were in close proximity to each other. One envious, determined country could easily overcome its fat and prosperous neighbor. Such is not the case in America. Enemy countries are oceans away and poor, for the most part.

I don’t see a will from the West to solve world inequalities in an adequate manner. It’s not enough to air-drop food, we need to find a more permanent solution.

For a start, erase the debt of poor countries, after all it was only our surplus they received. The World Bank funds come from our own bank accounts and we might lose some money, but our descendents will live in a safer world where nobody would go hungry. Is that impossible to do?

Eloise wisely reminds us:--"Let us not forget that the Fertile Crescent countries were in close proximity to each other. One envious, determined country could easily overcome its fat and prosperous neighbor."

If I recall correctly, Assyria was just 300 miles north of Babylonia -- a hop and a skip from our point of view.

Robby

I admit that even having read the article Barbara linked, I don't understand this concept of energy very well. My narrow vision leads me to think that if every one of us started with one, we'd accomplish something which hopefully would steer someone away from barbarism and violence as described in Durant's book and here in this discussion.

There are two Black sisters who come to my apartment and clean for an hour and a half when I can afford it. An interesting thing happened today when they were here. We talked about more than kids and grandchildren; we talked.

The older, Marva, went out to do an errand for me. While she was gone her sister, Carrie, and I talked about many things. We talked about hate we see around the world, and hate that exists right here in North Carolina. I told her about the prejudice against Blacks that existed in my family when I was growing up. Talk about "niggers" was common, though there were only three or four Black families in my New England hometown then. Carrie stopped me and said I'm the only white woman she's ever known who admitted such a thing.

Then, for some reason, I asked her what kind of education she'd had. Carrie told me she had attended a junior college and received a bachelor of arts degree at North Carolina Central, a fine school attended predominantly by Blacks, and taught school for 30 years. It was then I asked why she called me "Ma'am". "Because," she said, "I have respect for you and all people."

As a child I knew the prejudice my adoptive family had was wrong, and in my youth I began a crusade. I could see no reason why Blacks were treated differently from other people in my country, and I made my views known, often to my disadvantage. "They are people just like you and me," I said, "who take care of their kids, wash their clothes, cook supper....just like you and me." The reaction was predictable. I was considered some kind of nut.

Later, because of this, I got myself into all kinds of trouble, living from place to place as I did. When my husband and my two sons and I were sent to Durham, North Carolina from Buffalo by the corporation for which my husband worked, for a year in the late 50's for post-doctoral work for him, I witnessed firsthand some of the things I'd been talking about. As I told Carrie, who knew this very well, at that time Black people were shoved to the back of the bus. In department stores and other public places, there were two water fountains, one marked White, one Black, and it was nearly impossible for Blacks to work and earn a living wage. In my outrage, I made my statement by publicly drinking from the fountain marked Black, hoping that I'd be seen, and gave anyone who worked for me twice as much as they asked. "People are people and water is water," I told Carrie. "It doesn't matter what kind of sign there is on the fountain." Our native North Carolinian neighbors were glad to see me leave.

We moved back to New York and were transferred to Indianapolis and up the corporate ladder only a few years later. Our house in Indiana was fairly large, and I hired cleaning help. There came a time when my help couldn't come, and my Hoosier neighbor down the street kindly said her cleaning woman would come and work for me. A lovely looking woman, black, neat and beautiful, came to my door. As always, I began talking to her. She was a devoted mother of a daughter in her late teens whom she wanted to see educated. After talking about schools, I asked her what her greatest concern about her daughter was. She said despite rigorous religious training, she was afraid her daughter might become pregnant and spoil the chance for her future. I told her about birth control and where to find information about it.

Before too much more time passed by, my neighbor appeared at my door. She was irate. I invited her in; poured her a cup of coffee, and asked what was wrong. She told me I had completely ruined the cleaning woman we shared. When I asked how, she told me that this lovely woman didn't know "her place" any more. Anything I said to my neighbor was not listened to, but I knew the Black woman to whom I spoke had opened her eyes to something she did not know.

While living in Florida years later in the 80's, I had a job playing the piano at two services in a strict Protestant church. I also taught the children of the grade school at that church how to play the piano. The 17 kids happiy trooped in once a week, glad to have time off from their studies. We worked on piano things and also talked. I learned that most of their fathers were in the Ku Klux Klan. Nervous about losing a job I needed, I didn't say too much to those kids, but enough, I guess, to make a difference with a few, who suddenly didn't hate Blacks as much as they had before. I lost the job anyway.

If it takes sticking your neck out a bit to stop barbarism and hate just by sharing what you know with others, isn't it worth it? I think it is.

I nearly forgot an experience when I lived in New York. I'd had surgery and went into anaesthesia shock. When I awoke, I was in a recovery room and saw a Black man with a very concerned and kind look on his face by my bed, which was outfitted with railings. I looked up at him and said, "I'm so very, very sorry for what we've done to you." Dopey with anaesthesia, I said it several times, I'm sure. Long after I recovered I thought about his reaction. What could he possibly think except that I was some kind of nut? Perhaps not. Perhaps I said something that needed to be said.

What this has to do with moral energy, I don't know, but I'm going to post this lengthy message anyway.

Mal

"When Ashurbanipal suppressed the revolt of his brother, Shamash-shum-ukin, and captured Babylon after a long and bitter siege, the city presented a terrible spectacle, and shocked even the Assyrians. Most of the numerous victims to pestilence or famine lay about the streets or in the public squares, a prey to the dogs and swine. Such of the inhabitants and the soldiery as were comparatively strong had endeavored to escape into the country. Only those remained who had not sufficient strength to drag themselves beyond the walls. The corpses of the victims remained long unburied, a prey to all unclean beasts and birds."

Anything like that going on in the world of today?

Robby

I'm a newcomer here. I happen to have a copy of "Our Oriental Heritage", which I've wanted to read for a long time, but couldn't get past the general discussion of civilizations in the beginning. I've just read about the Assyrians, and the writing was quite pleasant and readable. I've enjoyed reading the disc. leader's comments and many past posts. I may mostly lurk, because I don't have much that is erudite to add to the discussion. One question: Are the pre-Columbian civilizations discussed by Durant? There seem many parallels to civilizations in the Fertile Crescent. I'm not appalled by the Assyrian's "brutality" because of knowing that such was practised by the pre-Columbian civilizations in another part of the world for religious, economic, social, and political reasons.

Judy:--WELCOME! I am in the same boat as you. I had wanted to read this for a long time but acting on my own, I never got to it. Suddenly I found that there were many others who were interested and now I did not have to read it alone.
HOWEVER! Do not "mostly" lurk!! Your opinions are as valuable as everyone else's. You scare me with such words as "erudite." I don't remember having read that word in Durant but I will look it up.
Durant did not discuss the pre-Columbian civilizations but that should not stop you. We comment not only on Durant's book but on the remarks made by other people here. We try, nevertheless, to stick with the topic. If something in your mind relates to pre-Columbian (or other civilizations) that are currently being discussed, then bring it up. Please come back with your further thoughts.
Robby

I'm still dwelling on the question of what we perceive to be barbarianism. I think it wasn't until fairly recently that we started to value human life, any human life. We also put more thought into everyone having souls. Killing in these various early cultures was just a part of life. People didn't think 'Here is a human being with something to contribute to society.' They didn't think 'Here is an innocent child'. They didn't feel bad about eliminating their enemies or whole populations. They didn't think about the cultures they were destroying or the unique languages. There were no prison camps. No Geneva Convention. These are indicators of civilization. That's why I keep calling these societies cultures with traces of civilization such as the mathematical and astronomy advances. And of course, the improvement in weaponry to fight more effectively. Maybe the civilized part is the usable knowledge passed down to the next generation.

I think many get rid of their barbarian tendencies by going to movies that show violence and cruelty. The young people who in other generation may have been soldiers of fortune, watch these mindless movies instead and possibly have personal violence in their lives.

Malryn: The source of the Assyrian math information was in one of the sites you posted. The first one from yesterday or the day before, I think.

Any agreements or disagreements with Sharon's "indicators of civilization?" Is there more to us than barbarism?

Robby

Durant speaks of violence:--"Perhaps we exaggerate the frequency of war and violence in these Oriental states, through the accident that ancient monuments and modern chroniclers have preserved the dramatic record of battles, and ignored the victories of peace. Historians have been prejudiced in favor of bloodshed. They found it, or thought their readers would find it, more interesting than the quiet achievements of the mind.
"We think war less frequent today because we are conscious of the lucid intervals of peace, while history seems conscious only of the fevered crises of war."
Let us then for a moment examine the "Oriental states" of today as a form of comparison. Is there, indeed, a "frequency of war and violence" as occurred in ancient times, or are they now much more peaceful?
Robby

Well Europe spent a thousand years attempting to break up the Ottoman Empire and they - we are still at it bombing in the very same area. The Empire though known as despotic and held together with a strong military government,which oppressed the populations of the vast area it controled, had long periods of peace with intervals of war but finally after the WW I it was gone so to speak. Wait till we study that part of history if we do. We never talk about the long long periods of time like 300 or 400 years of a Civilizations, or even a thousand years, of apparent peace and prosperity. But I believe an anthropology study would show much advancement in those times in Art and Science before the UPHEVEALS of the history books take up again and overshadow the records. Faith

I agree entirely with Eloise and Mal in the sentiments expressed in their latest posts.

The developed countries should forgive the debts of the third world.

The colonists have done dreadful things to the indigenous peoples of the world including forcibly removing them from their homelands and putting them either on reservations or into slavery depending upon which indigenous peoples one is speaking of.

Any one who says there is no racial prejudice any more in the world is putting their head into the sand. Prejudice is alive and well in 2002.

I would like to think we are more civilized than our ancient forebears but I am afraid we are not. Acts of barbarism are occuring somewhere in the world as I am writing this post.

Carolyn

Barbarism occurs in families- the smallest societal unit. Our battered womens shelters are full of the victims of parental, spousal and child abuse.The family may be the place to stop barbarism.It is a microcosm of the larger more consequent barbarism we experience between nations. The practice of abuse in families occurs at all levels of society-rich and poor, educated and illiterate.The practice is passed along from father to son like a legacy- an inheritance.The male feels inadequate. He fears that his dominant role in the family is or will be challenged. So he beats his wife, parents and children from time to time to guarantee that his power continues unabated.

The national model is very similar. Assyria for example,was challenged early on by several beligerant neighbors. They became dominant in the region and from that moment on they had to defend their dominance not only in the region but from Egypt to the Mediteranean. Assyrian Kings must have felt inadequate, that they had to prove to themselves and to challengers that they were the boss. That they held the power. The braggart tablets seem to confirm that observation.And the practice of attacking other nations was passed along from father to son. Of course, the Assyrians eventually were challenged by someone with a bigger punch.

What lessons flow out of this comparison? In both cases we are talking about a male with feelings of inadequacy- a husband and a king. Today,the cause of these feelings is probably rooted in our competitive society. Men and women must feel adequate to compete. Counseling involving redirection of the male ego may be required to reduce the incidence of violence in families. Nations on the other hand may be required to address challengers with rational negotiation and effective assuaging of royal feelings of inadequacy. India and Pakistan are a case in point. There are a lot of fearful feelings to be assuaged in that relationship.

In a earlier post the question was asked, how could the attacks on China and Korea be resolved with the fabled manners of the Japanese. The explanation is that the manners are exhibited to those you know in Japanese society and not to those who are outside of Japanese society.

Jere

Thoughts by Justin:--"Assyrian Kings must have felt inadequate, that they had to prove to themselves and to challengers that they were the boss. That they held the power. What lessons flow out of this comparison? In both cases we are talking about a male with feelings of inadequacy- a husband and a king."

A most intriguing concept -- that the aggressive behavior of the ancient rulers stemmed from feelings of inadequacy -- that the Pyramids and all the preparations for the afterlife that went with them, that the erection of the ziggaurat (Tower of Babel), that the conquering of nearby nations, that the slaying and cruel punishments by the Pharaohs and other ancient rulers came about because of their basic feelings of inadequacy.

Agree? Disagree? Additional comments?

Robby

I agree with Justin that the male feeling of inadequacy may have led to the armed aggression but I can not lay all the accomplishments of the society at the feet of the king.

Jere

I am a woman who was thrown to the floor so hard that the framework on a door broke off when my head hit it. Who pushed me down? A man who was so frustrated by his inability to control me that it appeared to him that his only recourse was to resort to violence.

I could never say truthfully that my own frustrated behavior which prompted this act did not demand some sort of discipline on my part; not the part of anyone else. Why, I wonder, was it not possible to discuss the problem that existed between that male human being and me before this violence occurred?

Male inadequacy I translate into lack of control. Then I must ask this question: Why do human beings, male and female, feel as if they must dominate and control others, either in a domestic situation or globally?

Mal

Durant tells of Ashurbanipal who wrote "At that time the harem, the resting place of the palace" and so on. I suspect that there were at least 50 or more sons or princes in that harem, all plotting with their mothers to be the crown prince, or heir to the throne. You would have to be the most aggresive and smartest to survive that early age at all. The competition in the nursery alone would sharpen you to the highest degree, if you were to survive.

Mal

Control of oneself is something I have never seen taught except in Japan.

If one can not control oneself, then it is necessary to control another in order to maintain the situation so that one feels like he is in control.

Jere

Jere:

You are absolutely right.

Mal

Robby asks us to examine the "Oriental States" of today as a form of comparison to what we are reading.

Durant states, "The weakness of Oriental monarchies was bound up with this addiction to violence." He considers the addiction to violence as a weakness. It may have given them victories in battle, but it did not progress their society.

A journalist who had visited Afghanistan and met with war lords on both sides of the civil war there, said the following. They generally do not take prisoners, and if someone is wounded or tries to surrender, they are killed on the spot. He was told by combatants that sometimes they simply cut the man open like they do when they slaughter sheep, and leave him to the dogs. He said all you could hope for was a quick death.

Assyria was about 700bc and this is 2002ad, so that would make it about 2,700 years, and I see similarities between these two. Having just finished the book "Jihad" by Paul Fregosi, the violence really never ended for this area, but was taken to new heights of cruelty by later rulers, and the lands they invaded and colonized.

I do believe that if the ordinary people were given a chance to elect their rulers, and had a chance at democracy, they would choose peace over war and destruction. I believe they would choose education over brain washing in religion. No where in this area, do the people have a voice in the way their country is run, and until that is changed, I see only war and destruction in their future.

Perhaps if we help Afghanistan to form a government and elect their leaders, they will be an example to their neighbors. But tonight on television I heard that Iran said they did not want a secular government in Afghanistan, and would oppose it. Threats from all sides, not much has changed in 2700 years for this area.

Fifi - Mahlia mentioned after 9/11 that a democratic state in Afghanistan is far from a given as there has been tribal warfare in that country for centuries. It is utopic to hope that the Afghans can be persuaded to adopt a Democratic government and remain peaceful.

Jere - I have often thought that because of Japan's high population density for the past centuries, they developed self-control and fine manners in order to be able to live with one another in an orderly fashion, always being careful not to offend. Am I right?

Really excellent posts with such a rich and diverse range of comments! I'd like to add some thoughts, too.

JERE - the teaching of self-control is very much a part of Persian culture for both men and women, especially those who have public responsibilities (teachers, doctors, attorneys). Varying levels of self-control are forced on female children at a very young age in rural areas and the "typical" Persian woman from the western provinces are extremely submissive "for show," but have hair-trigger tempers. However, all Persians know that about women from that region (similar to the same cultural characteristic of Egyptians from the Upper Delta area), so it's not considered unusual.

AFGHANISTAN and democracy: there are already many clues that the temporary government in Afghanistan is simply being "tolerated" by the various tribal chieftains and their adherents throughout the country. Those representatives placed in the new government are dedicated to helping to reform the country, now that the Taliban leadership has been curtailed (NOT eliminated, just curtrailed), but they face daunting tasks and the ever-present double-sided rhetoric (called taroof in Persian)when journalists/photographers are present.

For example, the recent release of some members of the Taliban, when they had been promised to American interrogators; the seizure of American military winter clothes, shoes and weapons by tribal chieftains, when the supplies were intended by the Americans for the Afghan fighters, especially those who are accompanying Special Forces throughout the Tora Bora Mountain. The tribal chieftains will continue to do what THEY think best and promise what THEY THINK the govt. representatives and the American observers (press and military)wish to hear in order to make sure that the donated supplies continue without interruption. Anyone who has worked or lived in Afghanistan (not just traveled there as a tourist) understands this element of the culture - even the best educated Afghans like Hamid Karzai himself. One of the Northern Alliance chieftains, Dostum, is continuing to smuggle arms, collect baksheesh for favors, while promising to support and serve with Karzai.

Democracy as it is known in the West simply will NOT work effectively in Afghanistan; the corruption of the tribes is too deeply imbedded. The public comments from various representatives are DESIGNED to convince the donor organizations (World Bank, IMF, Red Cross, etc.) to continue their contributions. Pakistan knows this; India knows this; and most assuredly IRAN KNOWS THIS and will absolutely NOT accept a secular government, even lightly based on Western democracy.

Mal: I'm trying to sort this out. Male feelings of inadequacy are a cause of domestic violence. It is the male's lack of control that brings it about. Feelings of inadequacy are why he does it. It happens because he lacks control. I may be reaching to connect the premis to Assyria but who knows. Feeling threatened, may be more appropriate in Assyrian conflict situations.

I recently read somewhere that since 1776 no day has passed without war somewhere in the world. If I can find the quote I will give credit.

Justin, having experienced violence and studying as well as volunteering at our Battered Women's Center, I've learned that feeling inadequate is just one need that causes someone to feel the need to control another and they may use violence.

There are many underlying causes but most often one does not want to feel fear, or thoughts of lack, or some remembered pain, or the discussed feelings of inadequacy. To avoid their feelings they develop a self-pity mentality that says they must have things a certain way. They become dependent on things or others being a certain way and either contrive indifference or attack those they believe they need to control, so that their victim will comply with their "need." They are dependent on control which comes out as either a shield asking "why" or striking out physically, verbially, emotionally. Those that use the shield we label passive agressive, those that strike out we label batterers, perpetrators or abusers.

Preserving any behavior that does not foster the better interest of others is someone needing to control - folks control as some public leaders control.

All behavior can be changed but usually there is a shift from "wanting;" from self-perpetuating fear or dread over change occurring that will make the one controlling uncomfortable; no longer being dependent on tactics for "king of the heap;" understanding shame (not ashamed but shame, where you are wrong not what you do is wrong) Shame based folks have unrealistic expectations for themselves and others. Change occurs when they no longer see their inadequacy as fear of failing but as an opportunity to correct. Most often support is needed for these changes to take place, the same kind of support a recovering alcholic requires.

Also, how about comparing some of the underlying causes for battering to the underlying causes of a nation state or group going to war...believing they lack, holding fear, feeling in-adequacy, shame, remembered pain (humiliation).

"How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient? Not even a lifetime of devoted scholarship would suffice to initiate a Western student into the subtle character and secret lore of the East."

- - - Will Durant

As we move toward the Life of Assyrians (see GREEN quotes above), Durant tells us:--

"The economic life of Assyria did not differ much from that of Babylonia. In so many ways the two countries were merely the north and south of one civilization. The southern kingdom (Babylonia) was more commercial. The northern (Assyria) more agricultural. Rich Babylonians were usually merchants. Rich Assyrians were most often landed gentry actively supervising great estates."

Why is it that this reminds me of the United States prior to the Civil War?

Robby

"How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient?........." Why did Durant say that if we all have 'Oriental Origins'?

AHA, Eloise!! That's the question of the day -- if not the century! Maybe some participants here will come up with some answers.

Robby

P.S. Is it possible for children not to understand their parents?

I have a feeling it has a lot to do with a different 'spirituality'. Before Abraham and later Christ, EVERYBODY's thinking was oriental. Our whole life is managed by deeply rooted spirituality even if it is in the subconcious. It might be because of this that the Orient and the Occident don't understand each other. Unless they both believe in the same God, there will be wars and violence.

So then, do we we all have Oriental origins?

Yes, Eloise, you are right, regarding Japan's population density causing the need for self control.

I wonder if our leaders have thought about the length of time necessary to change a society from warlike to peaceful. How long did it take to teach the children the new way? How long did it take Europe or the US to change from the memories of WW II?

Jere

Good morning, everyone. It's a gorgeous, sunny day here in my little part of the world. It's nice to see after the memories the post I wrote brought back to me yesterday. I seem to be on a memory trip lately. You'll have to forgive me, please. Every once in a while that happens, doesn't it, no matter how forward-looking we are.

Forward-looking I say when ever since I began reading Our Oriental Heritage present day life reminds me of the very far distant past.

Of course, we all have Oriental heritage. Isn't that where human life began, really? I think most of us never thought of it, though, did we? I know I didn't. Spirituality alone is not the core of the differences, though, in my opinion. What is? I don't know.

Boy, I'm glad I never met up with that guy, Ashurbanipal. Did you read all of his boasting remarks about how he tore out tongues, crushed men and beasts and impaled or flayed people? Whatta sweet fella he really was! Even the Assyrian concept of the god, Ashur, was one of a warlike and merciless deity. That leads me to wonder if we create an image of God that resembles ourselves and the people we are.

Surprising to me is that this warlike king had "scandalous delight in books and knowledge." Wonder what kinds of books he read? The Art of War hadn't been written then. That's an amazing book, by the way, and I can't remember the name of the author. Talk about differences between the thinking in the West and the thinking in the Orient! I've heard that various governments use The Art of War as a guide. (So do football coaches.) If I could find which box of books it's in, I'd try to fathom it out again. My books have been packed in boxes ever since we moved into this house a year and a half ago, and do I miss them!

For sure I'll never understand "the subtle character and secret lore of the East". I've maintained that sentiment for years and years. People have told me, "Of course, you can understand the East!" They're wrong.

Well, my friends, the computers in this house work on cable, and the cable system has been whacky lately, so I'd better see if it will allow me to post this idle chatter. Then I must get ready for the rest of my day. I've invited myself to lunch in England with one WREX writer and dinner in New Orleans at a jazz club with another, so it's going to be a busy time. Wouldn't they both be surprised if I showed up?

The fact is that the kitchen door of this apartment is broken and won't latch properly, so I don't dare to use it. The sliding glass doors to the deck have a problem, and I'm not strong enough to open them, either. I think I'm here to stay in this bright Occidental room.

Mal

I've just been out a few hours and this forum is filled with far too many wonderful contributions to do justice to!

1.) War. I wonder if we don't make far to much of the amount of wars in the past, and the further they are in the past the more we dramatize them - Durant included. What has endured of the older civilizations is their monuments - palaces, war memorials (kings/people in general seem little motivated to build special monuments to peace) and commercial records, and these represent life from the top. We really have very little in the way of literature from these places, extremely little knowledge of how mundane activities were carried out _and_ how they were felt about by the non-elite. (Egypt is somewhat of an exception here.) What impression would outsiders have of our civilization if what was left were the forest of war memorials in Washington, the ruins of St. Peter's in Rome, Buckingham Palace and the records of the Tokyo stock exchange? Is this your life? Or mine? I hardly think we'd find ourselves reflected well in any theorizing based on these.

Ancient history is lists of kings and wars one after the other because we often have little else. I suspect this constant warfare thing is at least a little bogus. Clearly people sowed and harvested year after year for long periods or there would have been no means for war and war monuments. If war were such an overwhelming activity how would the Assyrian lords have ever managed those great agricultural estates?

Also it is flattering to ourselves to construct an ancient past with gross negative qualities, which we - of course - have overcome.

2. The mysterious Orient. I wonder how Durant would explain the ability of the "Orient" to understand the West. Gosh!! Are they endowed with greater intelligence than Westerners

On the other hand, I do indeed believe it is possible not to understand one's parents. Growing away from one's parents and becoming alien to their world seems a common occurance. I think the West has done this with its grafting of Greek speculation onto a Semitic religion that was largely of a legalistic bent. The extraordinary Christian emphasis on "ensoulment" for example, something hardly present in the Gospels and quite alien to mainstream Judaism as presented in the Hebrew scriptures. Christianity is as much the religion of Thomas Aquinas, Luthur and Calvin Westerners all as it is of Middle Easterners.

Was everyone "Oriental" before Christianity.....if one looks at the world of those ancient peoples who spoke Indo-Aryan languages (Celts, Latins, Hellenes, Iranians, part of the Indian population) we find a system of religious practice stretching from Ireland to northern India which might better be characterized as Indo-European, I think.

I am tempted to wonder aloud if Durant's concept of the Orient isn't at least a little wrapped in 19th century romanticism, plus the fact that the knowledge of the non-Western world has probably increased a thousandfold if not ten times a thousandfold since he completed his work.

Life in ancient Assyria. The sketch of characteristics could suggest Medieval Europe as well in many respects, or even parts of Europe well into the 19th century. Jack

Well as Americans we certainly came from other places and the people in those other places came from other places. Last year in reading some of the news alerts I recieved from The New York Times and other pubilications I remember reading two things. One that scientists had determined the Irish were a separate race and two that the DNA of many of the very old families in Britain ..dating back to the earliest had the DNA of Africans.

Since many believe the cradle of civilazation ..which really means where humans became the dominant animal was the Euphrates and Tigris in SW Asia then I guess we can say we all have Oriental Heritage.

Barbarism was fed by the need to prove you were a real ruler..and it is somehow related to the male ( and I will say females can be as barbaric ) need to show he can be as mean as the next fellow.

My real feeling is that until women realize they dont need men to be happy or successful there will always be battered women shelters. I know it isnt as simple as that but the most successful marriages I know was where the woman was an equal. The best advice my mother who I now realize was away ahead of her time was "Never getting married is not the worst thing that can happen in life." I wasnt raised to find a husband. I was raised to be independent. A husband would only be right for me if we walked together not one in front of the other. In dating I eliminated any that showed a tendency to want to control me.

All kinds of violence I find abhorrent. I am not sure viewing violent games or movies helps the male to suppress his need to be King Of the Hill! I do believe reading and viewing movies about good people ..those that have survived great personal disasters or health problems. People of all faiths, ages and backgrounds who have shown compassion and caring help to inspire.

After reading and trying to digest the history of these early civilizations I realize that only when man began to value human life did we begin to move from true barbarism to a suppressed barbarism.

That last was sort of tongue in cheek.

Ah I can see why we have already had so many posts in only two months. I cant even take a day off and when I return there are 41 new posts. Durant is the catalyst but you are making this an exciting place to visit..thanks ...anna

I retract "Unless everyone believe in the same God, there will be war and violence" because there were wars and violence when everyone had an oriental spirituality. So it is not the only reason why like MAL said. It is even DEEPER than that, very deep within our genetic make-up. Perhaps?

Here I was responding to the earlier posts and when I added mine there was a very very good one from Jack who writes a very sane and thoughtful post and Eloise who asks if violence and war or not part of our genetic makeup. Wouldnt surprise me Eloise. Early man had to be be afraid of not being the top dog. If he was stronger he could get the best of the kill and the best land, the best of whatever was needed to survive. And survival is our strongest emotion or so I have always been told.

Now I am going to go something around my home since even as casual as I am there comes a time when things need to be done! I dont want another broken toe because I didnt put the vacuum sweeper away.

anna

Anna, we are not what we read or see or everyone could be subjected to a diet of pacifism to curb violent tendencies.

Jere

I found The Art of War on the web. It was written by Sun Tzu 2500 years ago. Here are some quotes from it.

"War is a matter of vital importance to the state; a matter of life and death, the road either to survival or to ruin."

"The first of these factors is politics; the second, weather; the third, terrain; the fourth, the commander; and the fifth, doctrine. Politics means the thing which causes the people to be in harmony with their ruler so that they will follow him in disregard of their lives and without fear of any danger. Weather signifies night and day, cold and heat, fine days and rain, and change of seasons. Terrain means distances, and refers to whether the ground is traversed with ease or difficulty and to whether it is open or constricted, and influences your chances of life or death. The commander stands for the general's qualities of wisdom, sincerity, benevolence, courage, and strictness. Doctrine is to be understood as the organization of the army, the gradations of rank among the officers, the regulations of supply routes, and the provision of military materials to the army.

"These five fundamental factors are familiar to every general. Those who master them win; those who do not are defeated. Therefore, in laying plans, compare the following seven elements, appraising them with the utmost care.

1.Which ruler is wise and more able?
2.Which commander is more talented?
3.Which army obtains the advantages of nature and the terrain?
4.In which army are regulations and instructions better carried out?
5.Which troops are stronger?
6.Which army has the better-trained officers and men?
7.Which army administers rewards and punishments in a more enlightened and correct way?"

The Art of War

Here's another very pertinent quote from The Art of War.

"All warfare is based on deception. Therefore, when capable of attacking, feign incapacity; when active in moving troops, feign inactivity. When near the enemy, make it seem that you are far away; when far away, make it seem that you are near. Hold out baits to lure the enemy. Strike the enemy when he is in disorder. Prepare against the enemy when he is secure at all points. Avoid the enemy for the time being when he is stronger. If your opponent is of choleric temper, try to irritate him. If he is arrogant, try to encourage his egotism. If the enemy troops are well prepared after reorganization, try to wear them down. If they are united, try to sow dissension among them. Attack the enemy where he is unprepared, and appear where you are not expected. These are the keys to victory for a strategist. It is not possible to formulate them in detail beforehand."

annafair says:"My real feeling is that until women realize they dont need men to be happy........"

Well, if you read some of the stories about lesbian relationships of sports and hollywood people, lesbian relationships do not guarantee happiness either. Soooo.. Is being a loner the answer?

ANNA AND HUBERT, then we would have to rule out having children which is the most pleasurable activity a woman has.

A woman can be relatively happy without a man, but sharing a life with a companion cannot be compared with any other happiness on earth for both men and women. The problem is finding the RIGHT mate because without that, it is far better to be alone.

Have we strayed far away from Durant I wonder?

Hubert and Eloise I think the operative word there is "need" - to be needy - to become dependent on for your care and welfare - to have laws that require your dependence on a man in order to take care of yourself. To be so dependent on a man that you cannot leave an abusive situation because of lack of education or the ability to gain employment, of the fear of losing your children because you are not able to be employed at a similar income status as the man, or because of his controling ways your leaving is at a danger to your life etc. etc. etc.

Straying from Durant yes, but than more to the history that does include women in the world.

It seems dreadful to us of course, but for millenia a woman's place in history (and society) has usually been something on the order of "and he had seven children."

Are there any Assyrian exceptions?

Jack

Barbara - "To be so dependent on a man...." is exactly what creates inequality and men abuse of this situation too often. If the right mate is chosen, nothing like that happens. So I think it's better to be alone too unless the relationship is of mutual respect.

Living alone for a long time did not make me unhappy. It was better than being controlled.

Jack - Historians are men so they talk about what is of interest to them.

Eloise wrote: Jack - Historians are men so they talk about what is of interest to them.

Oh, agreed. But I think the fact is that women were essentially walking incubators and to some degree laborers. The number of roles open to them were very limited; therefore, so is their place in history. If women are the bearers of children, haul water, maybe paint some pots or weave cloth and take out the garbage it is not difficult to leave them out. The same way history for millenia had no place for anyone except the guys on the top. The guys in the middle and the bottom were used as supporting players in wall paintings, etc.

Does Assyrian art show many women I wonder.

Jack

Durant says:

"The world was pictured as crowded with demons, who had to be warded off by charms suspended about the neck, or by long and careful incantations."

Haven't we heard this before?

It seems at this point that religion and priests didn't have much clout at this time. "Religion apparently did nothng to mollify this tendency to brutality and violence."

A high birth rate must seem necessary in a military state where so many men are killed in war. Durant says that the position of women was lower than in Babylonia. "Marriage was often by simple purchase, and in many cases the wife lived in her father's house, visited occasionally by her husband." The penalty for any woman who was known to have an abortion was death.

Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

Mal

I can't equate a man's feeling of inadequacy to leading armies into battle to protect his culture's interests or to grab more land and therefore more resources. Whatever negative things we say about Assyrian leaders, we cannot accuse them of lack of courage. Kings got killed, they got captured. Now it's rare for a general to be at the battle front. A king is never there. Generals plot in a war room with a big map on the wall. Many make really bad decisions and sacrifice many lives.

Afghanistand will never have a democratic government. With luck they will have a stable government. Democracy is not part of the culture of that part of the world. With luck, there will be human rights for even the poor in their population. These human rights will probably consist of enough to eat, shelter and education. Smart young people, seeing no future for themselves will move away and a few might feel committed to the betterment of their society.

We read the records of war victories in the past as if they were accurate. But a king, bragging about his victories would exaggerate the size of the victory, the size of his army and the numbers of enemy killed. Do we really believe that biblical armies killed so many hundreds of thousands of people. Populations were small. If the bible were true, there would be no one left to kill. When Barbara Tuchman was writing her histories about wars in the middle ages she looked at orders for amounts of food, weapons and protective clothing. This gave her a fairly accurate number in a given army. The numbers were much smaller than the exaggerated reports of the winners.

Annafair makes an interesting comment about equality in marriage. Who of us didn't believe that the marriage was going to be equal when we got married. For myself and my husband, it was a contest of wills and a lot of fighting for position. Essentially, I lost the argument. It was years before I had the means to get out of the marriage and support myself. That was more than twenty years ago. You don't know what questions to ask the other person to gage the future. Generally, you are so young you don't understand yourself, let alone another personality. Now we know some of the danger signs to look for. In the 1950s and 60s we didn't.

I don't know about women in Assyrian art, but did you know......

"In Iraq, old Assyrian's temple walls show bas reliefs of huge mastiff battle dogs, wearing spiked iron collars, to create fear among their enemies."

I also found a site in which there is mention of ancient bas relief which show Assyrian people swimming.

Mal

Well one thing I know is that we can not value another person until we value ourselves. Still society taught us to be "selfless" and we should have been more selfish, more interested in our own feelings, ideas, intelligence, and our value to the family and projecting this outward so that others would also value us such as our husbands. That is what I tell my grand daughters. Value your self. I think in ancient times really before what we call Civilization Women were more valued. They probably were like their own tribe with the males courting from the edges and not actually living with the females as partners, and children only knew mother as parent. fp

I'm not sure how we got on a discussion of women, really, but, Faith, I like what you said. I know quite a few women who are a whole lot younger than I am. Well, I have only one real friend my age here, and she's legally blind and cannot drive and I have a walking problem, so we don't see each other very often.

Anyway, the young women I know have many of the same problems that I did when I was their age (ranging from mid-20's to early 40's). Oh, they're not hassled much by society any more because they have sex before marriage. They work and more or less earn a living, though many of them must share expenses with someone, male or female, because the cost of living is so high. Regardless, these women talk about most of the same things that we did.

They talk about men or women, depending on whether they are "straight" or not. They talk about their jobs. They talk about education, their families, their partners or spouses, their kids if they have any, movies, music. Same old stuff.

What are their problems? Same as ours. Worry about money and housing, worry about the argument they had with their partner last night, concern about a sick relative. They're not so very different, though I know they appear to be to many elders who don't take the time or have the chance to talk to younger people.

What I've said here applies to gays and lesbians I know, too, who aren't any different in my mind from anyone else.

Value of self? When you're young and insecure about many things, I think where the next buck comes from is higher in thought priority than time spent thinking about how you value yourself. The one thing I say to my 26 granddaughter is, "Meggie, after me you come first." I think that's made an impression on her.

Mal

WOMEN

Is it not the mother who teaches her children how to smile, talk, walk, behave, when they are toddlers, mothers who teach her children skills, courage, respect for authority, manners, worship, dialogue and cooperation between playmates, caring for the elderly, language or languages, artistic appreciation? All this while her man is gone to war, to work, to fix the fence, to till the soil, to shovel snow or gone to the garage, to have a beer with guys?

It seems unfair that when a woman feels she is no longer needed for service, she is no longer needed. Partners have to be happy while still NEEDING each other, otherwise it's better to be alone.

My experience with Battered women shelters is quite limited. I raised money to support several shelters and used the language of the professionals to support promotional material so I have surface knowledge of the problem. Tell me a little more, if you can, about some of the other causes. Clearly, inadequacy is one but you mantioned fear as another. Fear of what? That feelings of inadequacy will be exposed. What? You have said they develop a feeling of self pity that manifests itself in a need to have things a certain way. If not, they feel threatened, I guess. Tell me more, if you will, about this passive "shield" and the nature of shame in which a person is wrong and not the thing done.

Some of these things may apply to Assyrian kings but I suspect that in the main the kings may have just been "on a roll" and interested in conquest for the glory of it.

I think it's time we stopped thinking that we all believe in the same god. The god of Abraham is not the god of Mohomet nor is the god of Christ. They are all different with different characteristics. Some are vengeful, some are warlike, some are judgmental, etc.

"Assyria (900 BC.-600 BC.), saw a great decrease in women's rights and personal liberties. Assyrian society was much more militaristic, and its law code was generally harsher, than that of Babylonia. As a war-like empire, it encouraged a high birth rate because it needed soldiers. Women who bore sons were honored, while on the other hand women who miscarried, or who died in attempting childbirth, were impaled on a stake. However, the Assyrian period is especially important in the way it relates to women's rights not only thousands of years ago, but also today. This is because the Middle Assyrian laws (of most importance Middle Assyrian Law 40) were created during this time period." Quoted from Women in Mesopotamia

Excerpts from the Code of the Assyrians 1075BC...IF A WOMAN...

"The fact that witchcraft was associated primarily with women in the ancient Mesopotamian world reflects their low social status. Their lives were narrowly defined, and any actions taken outside their female role, such as speaking out, gave rise to witchcraft suspicions. Women as women were already suspect, and those engaged in marginal occupations—actors, snake charmers, peddlers, etc.-—were doubly or triply so. "

"Veiling and seclusion of women did NOT originate with Islam. In fact, veiling is first mentioned in Assyrian records written more than a thousand years before the advent of Islam."

"The husband/father had far more power regarding the treatment of his family. It had long been the case that a man could use his wife and/or children as debt pawns when he owed someone money. They were, in effect, slaves to his creditor until the man repaid the debt.In Hammurabi's time, the temporary "owner" could not beat or otherwise abuse these debt pawns. But, Assyrian law omitted these protections and also allowed husbands to punish their wives by twisting their ears and pulling out their hair." Quoted from Birth Rituals, Witchcraft, and Veiling

Ancient Tablets, Ancient Graves: Accessing Women's Lives in Mesopotamia

Justin fear of anything - a feeling of anxiety - the fear of the future - negative thinking - resisting Fate or trying to control so that life is what we expect. Not having faith in the unknown - many adult children of alcoholics are trained unknowinly to fear and certainly children abused have little trust and therefore act out their fear by attempting to control - girls tend to be perfectionists but men socially can express anger and rage which is nothing more than a devise to block their feelings of fear, or remembered feelings of abuse, or feelings of shame that is most often the source of feeling in-adequte.

Either may use passive agressive behavior or put up a shield to deflate anything perceived to be uncomfortable. Most often all this negative behavior is not consciously controlled behavior but the knee jerk reaction to the dependence on control just as the drunk has not understood why they drink other than it makes them feel good.

Yes, we can be addicted or dependent on power, religion you name it - but anything that allows us to feel this control over the unknown as well as, control anything that will bring us feelings that are uncomfortable.

This behavior is passed along generation after generation. There is a wonderful book out now called A Chorus of Stones - The Private Life of War by Susan Griffin that speaks to the historical memory within society. This is not a book about the particulars of control and abuse but an eye opener to some of our musings here that we label barbaric behavior in our modern society.

Detroit Institute of Arts - Ancient Art - Assyria

Assyrian Treasures from the city of Kalhu(Nimrud) first discovered in April of 1989 by an expedition of the Iraqi Department of Antiquities and Heritage.

Sackler Gallery for Assyrian Art at the Met, which recreates an audience hall in the palace of Ashurnasirpal II (r. 883–859 B.C.)

Mead Art Museum - four Assyrian wall relief sculptures.

Columbia Art Professor Finds Ancient Frieze in Students' 'Sweet Shop' at the Canford School, and English boarding school

Assyrian steateite (cylinder seal) - 8th to 7th c. BC

relief sculptures from King Ashurnazirpal's palace held by Bowdoin College Museum

Ashurbanipal's great library - Because the books were clay, 30,000 fire-hardened tablets remain today providing a wealth of information on Mesopotamian culture, myth, and literature. Includes photos of The ancient site of Nineveh and view of Sennacherib Palace Site Museum at Nineveh

This supurb site by the Dalton School 6th Grade Social Studies ASSYRIA RESOURCES including links to archaeological Sites

Well so far in this discussion I have not seen a way to answer Voltair's question about the steps to Civilization. I am hoping that in the next several thousand posts we will discover a "process" but for now I see something very different. It is a very gradual change over time with periods of intense activity and long periods of peaceful prosperity drawing to a particular culture the attaction of the other who wants what it has or at least wants to destroy what it has. So war happens again and again. I for one have tried hard not to place value judgements on these changes in the way societies act as I did not live in them and can't truly understand them. Of course from the last couple of days of posting I might think that we did not leave barbarism and become civilized.As to the present I feel free to judge my society but not really others that I do not know or understand. The caveat to this is of course that we can not help judging an act that is totally against our conscience as it develops in our own culture. fp

Next to reading what I have always enjoyed and missed the most when my husband died was conversation. Not just idle conversation or gossip but real conversation where people exchange their thoughts and feelings about the world we live in and how we reached the point where we are now. Where everyone's opinion was considered and where a real effort was made to understand how they felt. Sometimes it just helped to gel your own thoughts but many times it opened doors to a new way of thinking about something. I want to thank everyone who posts here for your contribution to our conversation. It is almost addictive and I treasure each post and each thought you share.

Just wanted to tell you that. Sometimes we forget to say THANKS and I wanted you to know how much you contribute to my life. My hearing loss is so profound now I could never carry on a conversation in this depth in person. So thank you all.

Thank you for understanding my feeling about women discovering they dont need men to make them happy. Having had a marriage that lasted over 40 years and was only terminated by death I know the joy of being with a person who treats you equally, who values you as a person first, a helpmeet who enhances your every moment. Someone once asked if we ever argued. I had to laugh for we did in living color and stereo but we respected each person's right to be who they were. We encouraged each other to reach for the stars even if that meant pursuing dreams and ambitions unshared but encouraged.

No one person can make you happy ..only you can make yourself happy. When you put your self first then you realize what you need to be happy and you reject those things that wont. You know money, position, a grand house ( which isnt always a home ) is not important but a companion in life to share the good and bad who lifts you up and doesnt tear you down is what will make life rich beyond our imagination.

I dont know what started this but something in someone's post did and since we are discussing how we became civilized ( and we have come a LONG way since our Oriental Heritage) then the discussions of relationships and how they have changed as individuals and as nations and the people who inhabit them has merit.

I am going to return to reading my book and I know Robby will challenge us to consider what Durant has to say.

My sincere thanks to each of you ...I cant think of a better way to spend my time than here with you.

anna

While I was in the specialists office this morning I picked up a book and lo and behold there was an article in it about refugees. It was an Assyrian family. The wife was very into her birth country's early history and I will tell you more of what I read as the discussion unfolds.

Speaking about being alone. I have had chances to have relationships with men older than myself but find they are so set in their ways, want to be the boss and are products of their generation's thinking! I think its an equal, respectful, relationship for me or nothing. So far its nothing. LOL.

Carolyn

Barbara; Thank you. I guess this subject area is more complex than I wanted it to be. I wonder what behaviorist psychologists think about the problem. I think these folks who thrive on control, need to feel more confident of their own personal powers in social relationships. I used to watch husbands and wives at cocktail parties. Often before the wife spoke, she would look at her husband for approval and almost always after she spoke she would look at him. At some parties, the women spoke only to other women and the men only to the men. Eloise is so right. Partners must feel comfortable with one another to make it worthwhile living together. The Assyrians attempted to control women in a brutal way but I am not so sure, that inspite of having come a long way Baby, we are yet able to mix very well as men and women. And I don't mean the exceptions I mean in general.

Post #226 by KEVXU "I am tempted to wonder aloud if Durant's concept of the Orient isn't at least a little wrapped in 19th century romanticism, plus the fact that the knowledge of the non-Western world has probably increased a thousandfold if not ten times a thousandfold since he completed his work."

I wondered the very same thing. I am sure that Durant followed what was known in the 1920's and 30's about the ancient world of the Orient, but I am curious if more is now known today about the history of that area. The occidental world had a colonialist view of the world at that time, dangerously so. Maybe so even today.

One point that Durant covers is the millions of destitute aliens who were brought into Assyria as captives. "This destroyed all national unity of character and blood, and became by their growing numbers a hostile and disintegrating force in the very midst of the conquerors". I wonder how "politically correct" that would sound today? Its also what happened to Rome centuries later.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/nineveh/index.html This is a good article on what has happened to Nineveh to date. fp

Hi! Remember me? It says above in the Heading that I am the Discussion Leader. So I left for my office at 10 a.m. (ET) and have just returned 10 hours later to find 40 posts -- this plus the 10 that I found when I woke up this morning!!
I have said on more than one occasion that the job of the DL (at least in my opinion) is to know when to back off and let the thoughts fly. Well, I'm glad that I was away for these past 10 hours and didn't have the temptation to intervene with my own ideas. This is a dynamic forum!! And I thank you all so much for your ACTIVE participation. Even when the comments strayed a bit from the main topic, there was still an underlying relationship.
I'll say this -- in these past 10 hours I have gotten way behind all of you in my knowledge of Assyria what with your comments plus all those wonderful Links.
And -- speaking of Links, since this forum began they have been the answer to Ellen's comment:--"I am sure that Durant followed what was known in the 1920's and 30's about the ancient world of the Orient, but I am curious if more is now known today about the history of that area." We have not limited ourselves solely to his comments but, wherever possible, have brought in new information that has been relevant to the topics as we follow along in his book.
Now unless I hear loud shouts to the contrary, I will move along so that we don't all find ourselves caught up in a time warp and becoming a member of an army about to enter a battle.
Robby

"Religion apparently did nothing to mollify this tendency to brutality and violence. It had less influence with the government than in Babylonia, and took its cue from the needs and tastes of the kings. Ashur, the national deity, was a solar god, warlike and merciless to his enemies. His people believed that he took a divine satisfaction in the execution of prisoners before his shrine.

"The essential function of Assyrian religion was to train the future citizen to a patriotic docility, and to teach him the art of wheedling favors out of the gods by magic and sacrifice. The only religious texts that survive from Assyria are exorcisms and omens."

Any further comments about the influence of gods in Assyria? Any differences between the power of the priests in Assyria from the priests in earlier civilizations?

Robby

ANNAFAIR - Re post #251, that is what I think is the only way a man and a woman can be happy together. Anything else is not worth the trouble. What you write is pure gold and should be published worldwide.

One step on the long road to civilized behaviour was when people stopped sacrificing people to their gods but sacrificed animals instead. We are disgusted with the idea of sacrificing an animal but we are judging it by modern, western standards.

As well, we know that the gods were man-made and didn't have any power. I think it wasn't until Roman times that people realized their gods didn't have any godlike powers. People were ripe for a new religion that fulfilled their spiritual needs and Christianity was the new spirituality that did it.

In Barbara's #247 there are links about the treatment of women. In the Code of Assyrians 1075 BC, If a Woman... Penalties often included a measure of lead so lead must have been valuable. What did they use it for? Cooking pots? Only people of means in Roman times could afford lead cooking pots and as we know, lead poisoning was the result. The Egyptians also put arsenic in makeup.

ROBBY - just think what could have transpired here if you'd been gone longer!

Found these this afternoon and held off putting them out here - hope I am not stealing any thunder kiwi lady but these seem to be along the lines you spoke - I will simply put up what I found and let you take it from here to make any or all additional comments.

"Today, Assyrians are not known in the world. Scholars, Assyriologists and most ordinary people are under the impression that Assyrians were an ancient people who no longer exist...We are the indigenous people of Middle East whose history goes back to our homeland Bet-Nahrin. We are now existing in either a genocidal situations in our home countries, or we are struggling against the forces of assimilation as displaced indigenous people in foreign countries. In most Middle Eastern countries we are not recognized as a national or ethnic minority...

As east Christians living in Moslem countries we have been used in two ways.

First, as allies of western countries especially in WW1 and WW2 to infiltrate or influence the regimes of Moslem countries we reside in.
Secondly, despite our long history of being east Christians, we have been targeted as scapegoats of Muslim peoples' anger toward the West. This was especially true after the Gulf War."

Justin don't like beating a dead horse but, once you learn the dynamics, it isn't hard to understand. It does take a bit to really learn the dynamics - then there is all the anger, rage, hurt and finally detachment for the victim.

Most of us have experienced someone controlling us in our lives but just not to the degree that others have and so once the dynamics are allowed to penetrate there is confronting your own anger, maybe not rage but, sadness and hurt and finally the ability to detach from the hold the experience has, which is for those violated the detachment process that some prefer to call forgiveness. In other words you finally accept it isn't your issue and God will take care of the other person as is fit for that person's growth.

This whole issue can also be the cause of scapegoating a child or a people. The rage arises and is placed outside yourself onto another because it would hurt too much if you have not yet learned to detach and therefore, your only other options appears to be to turn the rage on yourself. Some do just that by hurting themselves or going inward into depression.

On and on and yes, these dynamics I see repeated by individuals over generations as well as, whole societies. Certainly Germany was in pain with some saying the homeless represented as much as 50% of the population as the nation tryed to pay their debt after WW1 and so, it was easy to scapegoat those that had been earlier denied the ownership of property and all their wealth was in money.

I think Faith has a point that all we have is the sketchy historical data that says the Assyrians were a war like people but the source of this behavior we do not know.

I think we all remember the great events and I would bet most of us remember where we were when the report about Pearl Harbor crackled across the radio and how we heard about President Kennedy and watching the first moon launch as well as 9/11. We may even have pictures in our heads of Kruschef (spell) banging his shoe on the table and the breaking away at the Berlin wall. But how many uf us would immediatly share with our grands the round the clock planes supplying Berlin during the blockade or, the beginning date of Social Security or, purchasing our first Video recorder. All events that had a significant impact on our lives maybe even more directly than some of the more remembered historical events.

I'm glad that even though you don't like beating a dead horse, you don't mind doing it. If what you refer to as the "dynamics" is what is commonly called "the cycle of violence", I understand that. That is pretty simple. What I think is complex is the issue of cause. What is it in a person, what is it that happens to him or her that results in a need to dominate another. I think that once we understand some of the "whys" in this lopsided equation we may then be able to predict before marriage who will have a need to control and what we have to do to forestall it.

In my experience with shelter personnel they all seem to have a theory but but few and maybe none are focused on cause. We know what the woman should do. Break the cycle. Leave, get restraining orders, put the man in jail etc. But rarely do we successfully treat the batterer. One of our local agencies has been trying this approach lately. Success has been marginal.

I am happy that we have been able to make this little diversion for without it we would have talk about siege engines, tactics of war, and treatment of prisoners. None of which in Assyria was very entertaining except for the Assyrian king. Imagine, impaling a woman because she suffered a miscarriage.

"Not a stone remained visible of all the temples with which Assyria's pious warriors had sought to beautify their greatest capital" to quote Durant. That says so much. What is left is all a part of the bank of humanity.

One of the Assyrian Kings developed leprosy. He heard about a man called Jesus who could heal lepers. He sent envoys to see the healer and Jesus prayed for him and he was healed. The King became a believer and that is how Christians came to be in Assyria. Yes they were persecuted and still are. Sadam Hussein was the person our refugee family was fleeing from. The kings name began with Ag that is all I can remember from reading the article at the doctors office.

Carolyn

Justin there are many who theorize I agree - there is not an exact science to behavior is there or else there would be no fee will and we would all be robots.

I have a bit on my computer that helps me because in one way or another we all attempt to control - the difference is the methods used to control and the dependence on those methods. Like all addiction, dependency needs are increased with each event and as violence becomes more violent with each event, a simple need to control becomes deeper with each act IF CONTROL IS AN ADDICTION.

To judge someone's future way of relating before a marriage - good luck - remember the victim may not understand how to relate to a healthy mate because of the victim's history. This history may not lesson the pain of being brutalized or abused in any other way but, it is almost as if a perpatrator can smell the vulnerabliity that the victim is unconcious of holding. Also, the theory is, if we carry a dysfunctional history, we marry the parent we have issues with that were not worked out. In other words our mate is supposed to make the scene turn out as we hoped it would when we were so hurt.

My morning wisdom or some would say prayer and others motivational saying --

Fear, feeling vulnerable, feeling helpless creates the need to control. Lack of courage for the unknown keeps me tied to a judgemental view of life.

Accept, what is, rather than wasting time wanting or waiting for life to be agreeable.

There are those who would convince me to abandon responsibility rather than focus on those tasks that makes me proud of myself. They are, without exception, taking advantage of me and I’m giving up jurisdiction, mastery, power over my life. I’ve opened myself to being cheated and betrayed. Those who offer to "relieve" me of my perceived struggle do not have my best interests at heart, even though they may act, or pretend to act, out of a sense of compassion.

The more fully I maintain control over my choice to walk through difficult memories and feelings, the more mastery I have over my life. Being true to my high standards, loving others as cousins, respecting and acknowledging myself is independence without self-pity. Self-pity is giving myself away, wanting, needing someone to rescue me, dependency. Needing, wanting to be rescued is starting the cycle all over again.

I would say that is the most difficult, to walk through difficult memories and feelings that often are based on being so totally helpless to stop something painful from happening. We do anything, bargin with God, or think things like; if I just learn enough, earn enough, be active enough, pretty enough, organized enough, successful enough, liked by others enough then I will feel better and not have to re-feel that helpless, that vulnerable until we can really own that we did nothing to make what ever happened happen. We couldn't out-guess or out-smart what ever happened - it was their thing.

By not walking through those valley of tears we turn to the need to control. Some substitude hurt with anger and rage therfore, controlling with rage and anger.

Abuse in 2002 BC or 2002 AD is an assault on the spirit that creates a cycle of victim followed by becoming the perpatrator, generation after generation.

OK please - that's all I have - let's get out of this cycle of posts.

Ellen what a beautiful thought -

Carolyn Leprosy, an Assyrian King, Jesus -- Wow!

OK Sharon A. your post got me going and surfing the net - and Wow did i find out about lead in Assyria. The first links were about coins but then it really took off. looks like lead was important --

Coins from an ancient Persian dynasty whose kings ruled from 559 to 330 BC, when Darius III was defeated by Alexander the Great.

A Short History of Metals

Use and misuse of lead in ancient times.

Ancient Assyrian law code tells us that lead was largely used in metal currency as far back as in 2000 B.C.
The fifteenth century B.C. is generally considered as the heyday of glassware production in the Middle East and it was in this period that handcrafted items made of opaque and bold-coloured glass appeared in Egypt, Babylon and Assyria. The addition of small quantities of lead lends glass additional strength, shine and a high refracting power.
Remains of lead pipes dating back to the late fourth millennium B.C. have been discovered in Mesopotamia.
Lead sheets and tablets are known to have been used for writing since the remotest of times. Documents attesting to this practice go back to the times of the ancient Assyrian kings starting about 2000BC
Lead was commonly used in foodstuffs and cosmetics, a custom that was not without consequences...Major sources of lead poisoning also included cosmetics and medicinal drugs, in which lead was abundantly employed.

Sargon, King of Assyria (722 B.C.) repeats over and over in his "Annals" that he kept his records on plates of gold, silver, bronze, and lead. Ancient peoples have used various means of preserving their writings (great graphics showing how it was done and showing writing preserved on metal.

Hmmmm is this why so much war??

The availability of bronze spurred trade and warfare. The ancient civilizations developed partly to make it possible to get copper and to work it, in order to protect, improve, and expand their civilization. Mining and trade were needed to obtain copper and tin, armies were needed to protect the mines and the shipments of copper and tin, markets were needed for the trade goods, and industry was needed to generate goods to trade for copper. The relative boom times of the Bronze Age are due to the steps taken to fill these needs.

The Bronze Age in Asia Minor

Ancient Artefacts Lapping was the method used to join tubular handles to the vessel.

Alloying. Ten, lead and arsenic were alloyed with copper. The criteron of determining whether the alloying is deliberate is accidental is the presence of more than one percent of tin. Out of 100 artefacts examined, 30 had tin content ranging from 8 to 12 percent. Arsenic alloying was used in 8 percent of the artefacts. Nickle alloying was used in 4 percent of the artefacts and lead alloying in 6 percent of the artefacts.

"Bronze Age is a cultural revolution perhaps second in importance only to the Industrial Revolution of modern times...by the mid- 4th millennium, a rapidly developing copper metallurgy, with cast tools and weapons led to urbanization in Mesopotamia...when working gold by streaming, nodules of cassiterite were found. This cassiterite was reduced by workers already proficient in the production of gold, silver and lead.

Metal Working and Charcoal ProductionOne of the mysteries is how people got the idea for smelting metals...Bronze is fairly simple to produce in a bowl furnace mixing copper with tin, and/or lead to produce what is commonly known as lead bronze. The preferred fuel is charcoal, and bellows are used to achieve the melting temperature of 900-1100 C.

HERE IT IS, YES, LEAD, GUNMAKING, WAR WAGED TO TAKE CONTROL OF THE SUPPLY OF METALS

"The Assyrian military was armed with the best weapons. This was a direct result of their abundant supply of metal for gun making. One of the main purposes for the attack on other civilizations was not necessarily to kill them, but was to take control of their supply of metals found in the area.

- They developed the chariot for battles waged on the plains.

- They developed some of the great inventions in the art of siege warfare - rams, catapults, techniques of mining under walls, and scaling over walls."

BRITISH MUSEUM Near East

Malryn wrote: It seems at this point that religion and priests didn't have much clout at this time. "Religion apparently did nothing to mollify this tendency to brutality and violence.(Durant)"

Perhaps it never occurred to anyone that it should! Certainly if a nation has an aggressively militaristic policy it doesn't want a handful of entirely nambie-pambie gods. Maybe we should consider that their religion might have been more psychologically well balanced - big brutal gods to help out in bad time; the warm fuzzy ones for other occasions. _We_ believe religion should serve the cause of the "nice" parts of life, the Assyrian religion may have been more all-purpose, and in that sense, even "better."

Westerners have to go through all sorts of mental gyrations and grotesque contradictions to make themselves believe that they have their god on their side.

Malyrin (and Durant): A high birth rate must seem necessary in a military state where so many men are killed in war. Durant says that the position of women was lower than in Babylonia. "Marriage was often by simple purchase, and in many cases the wife lived in her father's house, visited occasionally by her husband." The penalty for any woman who was known to have an abortion was death.

So, "Pro Life" isn't new, it seems. Wonder if that their purpose in the U.S. - breed more cannon fodder. Well, that's for another time. In an agricultural country a multitude of children is a good thing (never mind for war.) Many children insure that an heir reaches adulthood, land gets managed by a staff of family members, and the alliances that daughters can make through marriage often prove useful in terms of borrowing labor, "friends in court," etc.

One of my paternal greatgrandmothers was purchased for the price of a farm - she held a family of males in servitude all her life. "Arranged" marriages were/are usually commercial transactions. I have no reason to believe that this is any poorer a basis for beginning a marriage than the Hollywood romantic codswallop that is the spirit of our culture, and the source of so many stupid choices and expectations. Much marital misery floats on a sea of romantic nonsense. Combining the ideas of romantic love with the institution of marriage may be one of the greatest steps backward in the last 1,000 years.

I wonder too if we don't savage the past rather than examine it by imagining these same actions taking place in our times and circumstances. Perhaps it doesn't deserve the entirely damning reviews we so easily give it. First of all, even these great civilizations walked a narrow path in regard to famine, disease, natural disaster. Quite frankly, I cannot imagine transplanting anything like American society - and its values - to the ancient past and having it work. Also, our grounds for comparison are often self-serving. We tend to see the history of our own country (the U.S. in this case) in a series of carefully selected conflicts, but in fact we engaged in a policy of continous expansion - by war, massacre, threats, infiltration, betrayal, there was ongoing slaughter of the native populaton - for over a century, foreign conquests, attempts to subjugate "freed" foreign people (Philippines, etc., constant bullying of weaker neighbors. Unfortunately, for the Assyrians none are here to cosmeticize their history.

And after all, isn't Durant's purpose to prove that the "we" of his time have reached some civilized highpoint? He really is taking the triumph of what he considers "good" for granted. I've never had the impression that his famous books are anything like an open-ended inquiry.

Female spouses living in their parental homes after marriage occurs in other cultures too of course, Heian Japan, various societies in Africa. A plus is that it tends in practice to give the family of the woman a powerful influence over the children, and provides her with a power base that she would not otherwise have living amongst strangers.

Jack

that I have nothing whatsoever to add, except to remark that most folks make the decision to marry with the wrong end of their anatomy.

HOWZAT (lurking again)

Barbara says:--"I am happy that we have been able to make this little diversion for without it we would have talk about siege engines, tactics of war, and treatment of prisoners. None of which in Assyria was very entertaining except for the Assyrian king."

This "little diversion," if I am understanding correctly, was to spend a bit of time discussing individual human foibles rather than talking about Assyrian rulers. However, this is causing me to make my own definition -- i.e. a civilization is nothing more than a population of individuals -- a society, if you will. That the "personality" of a civilization is the combined personalities of many individuals. I therefore go under the assumption that the majority of Ancient Assyrians were warlike in their approach and did not need to be forced to fight. It was "in their blood." -- Just a passing thought.---

Jack says:--"I wonder too if we don't savage the past rather than examine it by imagining these same actions taking place in our times and circumstances. Even these great civilizations walked a narrow path in regard to famine, disease, natural disaster. Our grounds for comparison are often self-serving. We tend to see the history of our own country (the U.S. in this case) in a series of carefully selected conflicts, but in fact we engaged in a policy of continous expansion - by war, massacre, threats, infiltration, betrayal, there was ongoing slaughter of the native populaton - for over a century, foreign conquests, attempts to subjugate "freed" foreign people (Philippines, etc., constant bullying of weaker neighbors. Unfortunately, for the Assyrians none are here to cosmeticize their history."<

Are we wearing blinders as we examine these "terrible violent" ancient civilizations? As we continue to examine Assyria (and let us please move on), these are points to keep in mind.

Robby

Durant continues:"In such an atmosphere, the only science that flourished was that of war. Assyrian medicine was merely Babylonian medicine. Assyrian astronomy was merely Babylonian astrology -- the stars studied chiefly with a view of divination. We find no evidence of philosophical xpeculation, no secular attempt to explain the world.
"Assyrian philologists made lists of plants, probably for the use of medicine, and thereby contribued moderately to establish botany. Other scribes made lists of nearly all the objects they had found under the sun. Their attempts to classify these objects ministered slightly to the natural science of the Greeks.

"From these lists our language has taken, usually through the Greeks, such words as hangar, gypsum, camel, plinth, shekel, rose, ammonia, jasper, cane, cherry, laudanum, naphtha, sesame, hyssop and myrrh."

So where do we stand in this "enlightened" 21st century. Should we say that we have a heritage from the Assyrians as well as the other ancient civilizations?

Robby

Good morning, everyone. I hope you are all well. It's another sunny day here in my part of North Carolina.

Jack, though you certainly don't need it to participate in this discussion, it's too bad you can't get your hands on Durant's Our Oriental Heritage. The Durants covered every possible phase of life of the countries and empires they researched, which was available to them. All of their research was corroborated by other historians at that time and now.

I do understand your point-of-view, though. I felt much the same way at the beginning of the discussion about Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America. I was fairly sure since he'd been in this country and Canada only a brief period of time 170 odd years ago that what he wrote would not be pertinent to now. I was wrong. I will tell you, though, that Durant does not emphasize wars and the negatives. Most of us also research the area being discussed, so read other points-of-view.

Robby, I don't feel as if we received much legacy from the Ancient Assyrians, frankly, except in this way. It's certainly possible now to compare the less warlike Babylonians with the Assyrians. It seems to me that the laws in Hammurabi's Code, for example, were more fair than the laws in Assyria, even though penalties for crimes were often severe. It's also interesting to examine the religion of the Assyrians with that of the Babylonians and what was in Egypt and Sumeria before it. There seems less involvement of the empire with religion than in the past, in my estimation.

As I read about the harsh, militaristic empire that was Assyria after an empire which was easier and less focused on war than it was on literature, art and other things that come with prosperity and ease, I am reminded of changes in administration in the United States. Periods of peace, prosperity and relative freedom are often followed by tighter "regimes" and a clamping down on various freedoms which were in the previous one. Sometimes I think these stricter governments base their action on the "Just say no to everything" philosophy. It would be nice if things were not all black or all white and entered into the shades of gray that you mentioned.

Mal

I'm so happy you participate in the discussions here in SeniorNet. My predecessor as leader of the Writers Exchange WREX was almost completely deaf. Without these discussions, she would have lived in a lonely and silent world. By participating here, people with many different physical limitations are able to expand their worlds to one which is much more interesting and agreeable than the one they had before.

Mal

Robby if as you suggest Assyrians were not forced to be violent but were so because it was "in thier blood" then I would say we have inherited that trait. Not all of course but when I read about some people and the crimes they commit ( road rage, rage over some hockey game,anger over a precieved slight or insult which results in assault and even murder ) you have to think perhaps it is "in their blood".

Some people I have known in my lifetime were later diagnosed as manic depressive. So perhaps something in their blood line made them that way. They could be charming but were always "on edge" thinking others were doing things to deliberately annoy them.

Yesterday I was driving with a friend in the car when two teenagers crossed the street in front of me and slowed traffic. It was not at a crosswalk but in the middle of the block and traffic was heavy. They were walking in tandem with their hips pressed together and giggling. I slowed down and my passenger said look at them they think they can do anything they want and they know they are annoying people and slowing traffic. I queried my friend and said "Of course you never did silly things when you were a teenager? " It lightened the situation a bit but what I saw was two silly teenagers. I remember my own teen years and know how silly and sometimes in retrospect dangerouly I behaved. I saw nothing hostile in their behaviour even though my friend did.

In my own family one of my brothers has always felt anger at percieved slights. When another brother and I discussed this I said "Each family is entitled to at least one black sheep. Kenneth is our black sheep but he is OURS" He is nearly 70 and is still the same way. We all had the same background but our inherited traits are different I will now think my brother inherited some of that Assyrian trait. Thank goodness the rest of us didnt.

Onward and upward and back to my book. anna

Thanks so much. When my friends locally hear me talk about these discussions I know they think I am crazy. Some question my deep feeling of friendship with people I have never met.

It is difficult to have an in depth conversation when you have to continually say would you mind repeating I didnt understand. It stifles spontaneity and conversation is limited to generalities.

I have always loved the ad for The United Negro College fund when they said "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" Here thanks to all my mind is not being wasted. You are appreciated more than you know. anna

It doesn't look like much, even if with the reservation that we may only be skimming a small part of what the elite left. Of course in the 70 years that have passed since Durant wrote his books so much more knowledge has been acquired from archeology, but I've read nothing that would indicate that any great reevaluation of Assyrian culture has taken place. I do wonder about the king who was chided for his reading habits...what kind of books was he reading?

Jack

Jack:

The king was Ashurbanipal. Durant says, "He commissioned innumerable scribes to secure and copy for him all the classics of Sumerian and Baylonian literature, and gathered these copies in his library at Nineveh, where modern scholarship found them almost intact after twenty-five centuries of time had flowed over them."

I have seen no evidence that he was chided for doing this.

Mal

Jack, the Durants published the 11 volumes of The Story of Civilization over the course of 40 years; from 1935 to 1975. They range from prehistoric times up to the 19th century after BCE. I don't know what that's called now, but know it is not longer referred to as A.D. Some of these 11 volumes are over 1000 pages long.

Below you'll find a link to an article which expresses some of the thoughts about newer discoveries, etc., that you've mentioned here.

About The Story of Civilization
Mal

Any reaction to the quote above which begins with "The people fell into five classes...?"

Robby

Jack - post # 226 made me think that wars can be fought by other means other than on the battlefield in order to retain power. It can be fought with high-tech, economic clout, language skills, by threats of removing economic aid, all that without one man getting killed - for a while.

War now has become one of creativity and innovation in defense strategy (military). Saving face is of prime importance because the planet is as transparent as glass and everything we do is now closely monitored by 100 or more satellites circling the globe continuously gobbling up mega tons of information from every nation around the globe.

It is impossible to compare wars fought in ancient times with those of today and Durant would not have written the same thing had he been still alive. His world-view would have been different. When I read his comments, I always refer to our own era and how we perceive our world today. I resist the temptation to adopt his world’s view as the only valuable one.

Circumstances vary and history is not always passed down in every detail in order to concentrate on the major events such as war and the lives of the rich and famous, just as the media does today.

I went on to read some more of Durants evaluation of Assyria and was interested in his statement

Gradually the qualities of body and character that had helped to make the Assyrian armies invincible were weakened by the very victories that they had won; in each victory it was the strongest and bravest who died, while the infirm and cautious survived to multiply their kind; it was a dysgenic process that perhaps made for civilization by weeding out the more brutal types.

I found that interesting ...that civilization moved forward when the more brutal types were weeded out.

just thinking on a sunny cool afternoon...anna

Annafair quotes Durant as saying:--"In each victory it was the strongest and bravest who died, while the infirm and cautious survived to multiply their kind."

I would rather we not get too deep into genetics and/or Darwinism at this point but this does make one to wonder if, over the centuries, we have moved gradually away from the barbarism of millenia ago to our comparatively "peaceable" civilizations of today. Granted, we still have brutality. But in the same gruesome manner as those ancient civilizations? Are we, the human race, nowadays more "cautious?"

Robby

Robby: Any reaction to the quote above which begins with "The people fell into five classes...?"

This seems to have been a system that enjoyed enormous longevity -we see it well into modern times even in Europe, as well as in other parts of the world. In fact, taking a big jump into the world of generalizations here, it strikes me at the moment that until the transition that became the Industrial Revolution which did not benefit from this system, that only extremes of climate and technology produced exceptions. Thus, tribes that wandered with herds could not evolve this stratification, nor hunters. And as a result, e.g. the Huns, they became stuck at a developmental point until they adopted such a system as a result of conquest. The Huns didn't get to stay top dog until they fit themselves into this pattern - or am I mixing the Huns and the Mongols perhaps. Hmmm, will have to check.

I wonder could this kind of hierarchy be a kind of "natural" stage in the increasing complexity of civilizations. (Of course this smacks of sociology as a kind of "natural" evolution, which is certainly frowned on. Though with the popularity of Francis Fukayama's book a few years ago, "The End of History," maybe it's an idea that has some supporters.) It (this kind of social organization) certainly seems to have lasted a long time. Is that a sign of its servicability? Or did it last too long, take too long to wither and die?

But, (an unpleasant thought), does this (the utility of this hierarchy) lead to the idea that slavery is a necessary ingredient in the successful rise of civilization(s)? If this thing called civilization is good, and slavery is a necessary step/ingredient in it's development - then is it only in retrospect that we can afford to label slavery as an evil? I can't think of any broad religious tradition that in it's early years condemned slavery - maybe it seemed self-evident that slavery is necessary for a non-barbarous life.

The Irish essayist/patriot, Thomas Davis wrote a book on 19th century Ireland called "The Death of Feudalism." (He was active in the 19th century.) I no longer recall a lot of it, but the thrust of his thought as I recall (and that of some other Irish leaders at the time) seemed to be that until this kind of fossilized system was destroyed that the Irish people and Ireland could not move into the modern industrial era. Ditto for 19th century Russia, and Japan. I have read, though I can't recall the titles of the books, that the War Between the States can be considered in this light as well.

By the bye. After pounding my fingers to steak tartar on the keyboard, I may have found a used book dealer in the U.K. who has a copy of the book at a reasonable price and claims to be able to get it to me before the actuarial tables say I will have expired.

Jack

Once again this discussion has proved to be a fine resource for me as I continue to assist a friend in writing/editing a series of lectures on the ancient period for a Christian seminar series. Not only are the comments posted richly diverse with a wonderful sense of learning and understanding by thoughtful people of different backgrounds, but thought provoking for me, too. Although this discussion is enjoyed by those of us who are regular posters or readers, I thought you might like to know that another audience (in seminar format) has also benefitted from many of these comments and will continue to do so for the next 6 weeks.

Mahlia Z

Jack says:--"I may have found a used book dealer who has a copy of the book at a reasonable price and claims to be able to get it to me before the actuarial tables say I will have expired."

Glad to know you are not currently expiring. Staying alive is what is making this such a live forum.

Robby

Durant continues about art (see GREEN quotes above):--

Stimulated by the influx of wealth into Ashur, Kalakh and Nineveh, artists and artisans began to produce -- for nobles and their ladies, for kings and palaces, for priests and temples -- jewels of every description, cast metal as skilfully designed and finely wrought as on the great gates at Balawat, and luxurious furniture of richly carved and costly woods strengthened with metal and inlaid with gold, silver, bronze, or precious stones. Tempera painting in bright colors under a thin glaze became one of the characteristic arts of Assyria, from which it passed to its perfection in Persia."

This from a war-like civilization. How can this be?

Robby

I don't know if this Link was presented previously or not but this is an excellent example of BEAUTIFUL ASSYRIAN ART. You can enlarge the illustrations by clicking on them.

the origins of monarchy? Are they always military, or are they religious? The inbred rulers need the military to keep themselves in power so a combination of magic (the natural power of kings and their descendants given by some god or other must be supported by force. Those heads at a festival are part of the celebration,a celebration of power. Were these people counting on an afterlife, I guess I should get the book. At this point I want to know were they Islamic and did they believe in martyrdom?. One question simply brings up several more and I don't see any answers except the one about each civilization having it's own mores and morals. Who is to judge except by those to whom the rules apply. Mine certainly wouldn't work throughout most of history.Life as precious, and growing within our human capacities in order to make the most of them as they apply to our CIVILIZATION.

I'm rambling I know, but I find it hard to moralize without a basis of understanding the meaning of what is being done. I think it's called an open mind, also a very confused one.

Claire

Robby the link "BEAUTIFUL ASSYRIAN ART" only opens into 15 small 2x2" pictures of really beautiful art but I can't enlarge one by clicking on it.

Eloise:--I was wrong. Apparently clicking onto the illustrations only give you a specific software location -- probably for student use.

Robby

Claire, the prophet, Mohammed, did not create or find, Islam until 612 A.D. That's a long distance in time from Ancient Assyria. The concept of Paradise as it is thought of today did not come into being until long after the Assyrian Empire was gone. There had been mention of a heaven in Babylonia, but it was only for the gods. Mere mortals didn't have a chance in Hades (which didn't exist by that name, either) of getting much of anything but torment in an afterlife.

Robby, why shouldn't there be art among warlike people? Artistic creativity does not stop because a nation is militaristic. As long as the kings were willing to put monuments up for themselves, as the Assyrian kings did, there was money to pay for artwork on this monuments, temples and royal abodes, there was art.

Bas relief appeared to be the finest artwork which was done in Assyria, surpassing that of Babylonia. Scenes of war and hunting are depicted with much action and very little perspective.

Durant says that Sennacherib's royal mansion, called "The Incomparable", had walls and floors which sparkled with "precious metals, woods, and stones". He also relates that "sculptors carved for it winged bulls of limestone and alabaster, and lined its walls with pastoral symphonies in bas-relief. Apparently, many examples of this Assyrian bas-relief can be seen in the British Museum.

Mal

I have been in the Pentagon many times and in the various hallways are wondrous works of art - paintings on the walls, sculpture, etc.

Robby

That's interesting, Robby. I've never been in the Pentagon to see that artwork.

Below is a link to an artist's rendition of Sennacherib's "The Incomparable", based on findings excavated at the site.

Assyrian art at The Incomparable

"Regarding Asssyrian sculpture, the animals are full of power and majesty, as if conscious of not only physical but moral superiority to man -- like the bulls that guarded the gateway at Khorsabad. The human or divine figures are primitively coarse and heavy, adorned but undistingished, erect but dead. An exception might be made for the massive statue of Ashurnasirpal II now in the British Museum. Through all its heavy lines one sees a man every inch a king -- royal sceptre firmly grasped, thick lips set with determination, eyes cruel and alert, a bull-like neck boding short shrift for enemies and faslsifiers of tax-reports, and two gigantic feet full poised on the back of the world."

I understand that the earliest glass objects were beads from Egypt. Hollow vessels did not seem to occur before about 1500 BC. It is not known just where glass was first made into vessels but it is known that there was flourishing glass production in Mesopotamia until about 1200 BC. The 9th century BC saw Syria become a major glassmaking center. It was on the Phoenician coast that true glass blowing occurred, probably around the first century BC.

I can't yet find an image of the British Museum statue of Ashurnasirpal II, but I found a very good picture of a bas relief of him and the wild bull. Please click the link below to see it.

Ashurnasirpal II and the Wild Bull

That is a bas-relief which Durant says the Assyrians were excellent at producing. I couldn't find a photo of the statue either.

This is probably my "modern western" mind, but it strikes me odd that a man who can kill a bull needs one man to protect him from the sun and another to shoo away the flies.

Robby

That's funny, Robby. A statement of his lofty position, perhaps?

Mal

As we admire the arts of Assyria my thoughts are jumbled and dancing with contradiction even as we speak of their creativity I am reminded that same creativity was used to develop the most advanced weapons and the chariot so they could fight across the plains. I am thinking, Why not just simply accept the bad and the ugly in human nature as a given?

Even the Constitution of the United States, outlining behavior for one of the more successful efforts for a self-governing free society, the Founding Fathers recognized the imperfections of their own human natures and therefore, created structures and instruments in the Constitution which would curb and counteract actions by men motivated by their imperfections.

James Madison says "If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."

Generally, we prefer to dwell on the nobler side of human nature, indentify with and discuss man's desires and aspirations. We prefer to call the undesirable characteristics of human nature, savagery or barbaric behavior so that we can distance ourselves from this behaviror or, so that in time, with enough understanding coupled with our own so called civilized behavior. we could make the bad characteristics of human nature evaporate and then we would be civilized.

What are the seven deadly sins and how long have they been on the books so to speak? Have we ever found in a history book index, page listings under 'envy', 'jealousy', 'greed' or 'resentment'?

Robby spoke of us as less barbaric - "Granted, we still have brutality. But in the same gruesome manner as those ancient civilizations? Are we, the human race, nowadays more "cautious?" I do not see recent history supporting that thought -

While India was becomeing finally a sovereign republic in 1951 General MacArthur, so sure we would again use the Atom Bomb to cut supply routes from Vladivostok and Manchurai, surrounding the north, Korea and Red China with a band of radioactive wast he disobeys orders and crosses the 38th parallel.

Assyria develops seige weaponry and chariots to fight in the plains and cuts off the heads of their prisoners. Can we not own our sorrow and weep until history is sung - Dreseden a free port where refugees were evacuating from all over Europe in 1943, 7,931 tons of bombs were dropped the first night. The air rushed upward like a tornado, walls of flame raced at 100 miles an hour across the city and those in their shelters melted. A group or Romanian prisoners refused to enter certain cellars because it was a lake of flesh and blood and bone twelve feet high.

In secret the bodies of Dresdon were taken by wagonload to Altmarkt Square and burned where in 1349 at the same site Frederick the Great ordered the burning of Jews because they were accused of having brought the plague to Dresdon

The concept of WW1 was that we could instill a changed code of ethics in Germany by destroying their economic stability and terrorizing the civilians. In the process, death unmaned the english working class and the population of France.

In most of the ancient civilizations slavery and the imbalance of power among people is writen as the ordinary. In 1999, in a nation that has a constitution that says all men are created equal, a man is tied by chains to the back of a pick-up, is dragged along a back dirt road to his death because he had the "wrong" color skin and his people at one time were slaves.

As we look for so called civilized behavior within ourselves, lets consider the evil that no one likes to consider - envy. Human kind has reacted towards envy with more ignorance and concealment than towards sex. After all, envy is a feeling and therefore, it does not belong to the higher level, reason. Envy is so universal that we label it instinctive.

Envy hides jealousy. Envy is this comparing ourselves to others which threatens personal realtions, leads to the poisonous habit of judging, creating who is 'in' and who is 'out,' which leads to resentment. Ressentment is self-poisoning the mind and our feelings, causing us to repress certain emotions. Repression leads to the delusion that our values are best and therefore, we have the right to judge others and control them to our satisfaction.

Aristotle says,

"Envy is pain at the sight of such good fortune as consists of good things; we feel it towards our equals; not with the idea of getting something for ourselves, but because the other people have it. We shall feel it if we have, or think we have, equals; and by 'equals' I mean equals in birth, relationship, age, disposition, distinction, or wealth.

We feel envy also if we fall but a little short of having everything; which is why people in high places and prosperity feel it - they think every one else is taking what belongs to themselves...

Ambitious men are more envious than those who are not. So also those who profess wisdom; they are ambitious - to be thought wise. Indeed, generally, those who aim at a reputation for anything are envious on this particular point. And small-minded men are envious, for everything seems great to them. The deeds or possessions which arouse the love of reputation and honor and the desire for fame, and the various gifts of fortune, are almost all subject to envy; and particularly if we desire the thing ourselves, or think we are entitled to it, or if having it puts us a little above others, or not having it a little below them.

It is clear also what kind of people we envy; we envy those who are near us in time, place, age, or reputation. Hence the line:

"Ay, kin can even be jealous of their kin."

Also our fellow competitors, - we do not compete with men who lived a hundred centuries ago, or those yet not born, or those whom, in our opinion or that of others, we take to be far below us or far above us... Hence the saying:

"Potter against potter."

We also envy those whose possessions of or success in a thing is a reproach to us: these are our neighbors and our equals; for it is clear that it is our own fault we have missed the good thing in question; this annoys us, and excites envy in us. We also envy those who have what we ought to have, or have got what we did have once. Hence old men envy younger men, and those who have spent much envy those who have spent little on the same thing. And men who have not got a thing, or not got it yet, envy those who have got it quickly.

If therefore we ourselves with whom the decision rests are put in an envious state of mind, and those for whom our pity, or the award of something desirable, is claimed are such as have been described, it is obvious that they will win no pity from us.

It is easy to miss the mark but hard to hit it. So it is because of these, too, that excess and deficiency belong to vice, but moderation to virtue. For men are good in one way, bad in many. Some think that men become good by nature, others think they become civilized by developing new habits, still others, by being tought either kindly or with force man will become civilized or at least less barbaric.

Since "good" behavior is the virtue of ethics it is not natural, we are not born imprinted with a code of ethics. To measure a code of ethics is, I think, based on trial and error as experienced through a progression of events that we call history.

And so I would be more comfortable examining civilizations efforts to hit the mark and rather than judge them and ultimitly ourselves as "good" versus "barbaric."

Barbara - Yes 300 double yes 301 - "Why not just simply accept the bad and the ugly in human nature as a given?"

But work towards the good.

Do not the previous postings of art being created in Assyria and some of the GREEN quotes above indicate some "good?"

Robby

"Like Babylonian and recent American architecture, the Assyrian aimed not at beauty but at grandeur, and sought it by mass design. Following the traditions of Mesopotamian art, Assyrian architecture adopted brick as its basic material, but went its own way by facing it more lavishly with stone. It inherited the arch and the vault from the south, developed them, and made some experiments in columns which led the way to the caryatids and the voluted "Ionic" capitals of the Persians and Greeks.

"The palaces squatted over great areas of ground, and were wisely limited to two or three stories in height. Ordinarily they were designed as a series of halls and chambers enclosing a quiet and shaded court. The portals of the royal residences were guarded with monstrous stone animals. The entrance hall was lined with historical reliefs and statuary. The floors were paved with alabaster slabs. The walls were hung with costly tapestries, or paneled with precious woods, and bordered with elegant mouldings. The roofs were reinforced with massive beams, sometimes covered with leaf of silver or gold, and the ceilings were often painted with representations of natural scenery."

Was there not some "good" in the Assyrian civilization?

Robby

Robby - of course artistic achievements are 'good'. They make us forget and give us a brief respite from the 'bad' in the world.

The 'good' I was referring to meant that human beings' must always be fighting against the 'bad' natural tendencies that we are saddled with since day one. That is why it is more difficult to be 'good' than to be 'bad'.

The bas reliefs of Assyria were cut sufficiently deep to produce chiaroscuro effects in the stone. The cut is variable and permits the viewer to see clearly the edges of shapes. Animal designs were more realistically achieved than humans but the work overall is effective.The hairs of the dying lions can be seen clearly. Only Barye has achieved greater visual truth in his lion images.

The existance of Assyrian bas relief enabled Roman sculptors to study and to advance beyond them. The body volumes achieved by the Romans in pieces such as the Ara Pacis and Trajans Column could not have been done without the techniques developed by the Assyrians.

In addition, the English language, has been given words such as "hangar etc." So some good has come from this warlike people.

Yes, Eloise - "human beings' must always be fighting against the 'bad' natural tendencies that we are saddled with since day one." and more than that I think we are being arrogant when we say folks that behave badly are barbarous - that is us trying to distance ourselves from what we do not like about our fellow man.

Yes there is good and beauty in many creations of the Assyrians as there is within each of us - but we are capable of and have committed atrocities - oh we can say it was the leadership that ordered us but, no more than the thinking of ancient civilizations that acted in ways we find distasteful. And so to me the idea that as we read we need to measure how civilized we have become is arrogant - I think if we could make it a point to see when the ancient or any civilization hit the mark that added to our lives today and not measure if it was in our judgement good or bad.

Those chariots that were created for war also were the biginning of how many backseat smooches in today's society. And smelting copper and bronze may have added many inovations as history used these metals in untold creations but it was also part of the Atom Bomb.

Maybe I'm missing the subtlety and by asking if we are more civilized is really a bit of irony - I only see the tools of bad behavior changing and the vocabulary that defines feelings as well, as the hiararchy of feelings that change with each civilization so that behavior that brings about bad feelings is or is not recognized.

I had always assumed that the Ionic and Doric capitals had been the exclusive design of the Greeks. The Ionic particularly I thought belonged to the Greeks because it helped to adjust for the error in the entablature in the Greek temples. Now it appears the Greeks owe their entablature solution to the Assyrians. It just happened to be available when it was needed. The Doric capitals of course were Mycenean as well as classic Greek with some modification.

I wonder where this idea that humans are born bad came from? We are born illiterate, without knowledge of language and ignorant, but I see nothing that proves we're born "bad".

Mal

Mal I totally agree that no child is born bad. That is a moral judgement anyway. I have been reading and hearing on tv the genetic discovery of a gene for depression, a gene for introversion and now they say, a gene for sociopathy. So tendency toward certain personality types may be in born. A statement was made re: {it is alway harder to be good than to be bad.} I certainly have not found that so in my view of people. I will agree with anyone who says it is more difficult to postpone fullfillment than to just go ahead and fullfill a desire.

As far as good coming out of the Assyrian Civilization of course there was as these were an intelligent people, and a prosperous people who could spend time and money on art and architechture(sp)and books and literature,astronomy, and mathmatics, and these people kept the knowledge of their past alive and added to it. Their innovations and developments then were available to be built upon and handed down. Fp

Humans learn from their parents. They either learn to have some self control or they learn they don't need to have any. They learn to be selfish or learn to be generous. I believe even children who have predispositions to some conditions can be made made much worse by the type of nurturing they receive.

We behave the way society allows us to behave. We just have to look backwards to confirm this.

Carolyn

I too think that goodness and badness are acquired characteristics. I will continue to think so until proven otherwise. We are born with undeveloped powers that are nurtured by experience and parental influence. If we do bad things it is not because we were born bad nor is it because we are bad but rather because each of us is capable of both good and bad acts and we choose the one or the other depending upon our perception and our conception of what is right and wrong for us in any given situation. I think we are about 80% free will. The rest is conditioned response.

I'm just a poor little country boy who hasn't been to town too much so, Justin, when you use terms like "chiaroscuro" and "Ara Pacis" and ""Trajans Column" and "Bayre," please realize that unless you bring those words down to my level, my eyes glaze over. If we were sitting in someone's living room having this discussion, when you tossed those terms at me, I might leave for a few moments to go to the washroom.

Robby

The periodically changing GREEN quotes above tell us that we are nearing the end of the Assyrian civilization.

"The last tablet bequeathed us by the King of Assyria raises again the questions of Ecclesiastes and Job:--'I did well unto god and man, to dead and living. Why have sickness and misery befallen me? I cannot do away with the strife in my country and the dissensions in my family. Disturbing scandals oppress me always.'"

Is this the end of just about every civilization?

Robby

Chiaroscuro in art means the use of light and shade or light and dark. The bas relief of Assyria reveal fine use of this technique.

The Trajan Columns were built during the reign of Roman Emperor Marcus Elpius Trajan, 52-117 A.D. His reign was marked by an extensive building program and compassionate treatment of the poor.

The above plaint of Ashurbanipal sounds to me like the end of a king. If the end of a king implies the end of a civilization, I'd suggest that somebody was doing something wrong. If a civilization is dependent on one person, that civilization will go down when he or she does. Do we handle this kind of thing better in a democracy, I wonder?

Mal

Below is a link to a photograph of the Columns of Trajan. Why do I wish I was there right now in bella Roma?

Trajan Columns

So far in Story of Civilization I am learning that each ancient civilization was born from the ashes of a lesser one and after establishing themselves there, the smart kings, using any means at their disposal, (including the inherent need of their subject for spiritual solace and hope) brought that civilization up to a height of development that can only be obtained by wealth and power. They prospered and unfortunately after a century or two, while enjoying their success and beautiful works of art, neglected their military.

When that happened envious neighboring countries, while struggling to reach the same level of development, improved their army and war machinery. The prosperous country was invaded because of a neglected and weakened military, softened manpower and internal intrigues. It was savagely beaten, plundered and the population dispersed and deported as slaves.

The cycle starts all over again and the spoils from the conquered nations help in the development of the conquerors who then naturally aim at achieving the highest development ever know in past history in order to become the most prosperous and powerful country in the world.

This is where we are now. We have the highest development ever achieved before and our military is at its peak. We have prospered and even if we have become a little soft, our military compensates for that. Our generation will not see what will happen further down in this century, but the past tells me that we are no better than past civilizations because we are still only human beings with all the same faults the same qualities, the same men and women who have the same needs for security for some, war for others, violence for others and peace for others. We all want the world to continue and that is why we transmit our own personal values to our descendents.

Eloïse

Well said Eloise! I hardly need to post when we have Eloise! I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed in the above post by our French Canadian friend!

Carolyn

It appears to me that pristine and untouched land which became Canada and the United States was first "invaded" because Spain, France and England wanted to expand their already considerable empires. St. Augustine, the oldest city in the United States, was held by the Spanish, the French, the English, the Spanish again, and finally in the middle of the 19th century became part of the United States. The Colonies, as they were called, were owned by England until the American Revolution ended in 1776.

Permanent French settlements began in what is now Canada in the early 1600's, and it was not until after the fall of Quebec City in 1759 that all French territory was assigned to the British.

How does this relate to the "spoils from the conquered nations helping in the development of the conquerors who then naturally aim at achieving the highest development ever know in past history"? Spain, England and France had not been recently "conquered" before they sent explorers and settlers over here, had they?

I think frankly that there are other factors besides conquest which can lead to the growth and fall of civilizations.

There's no possible way I can predict the future, but what if the concept of world government came about? Individual nations might appear weaker under a system like this, but world civilization would be much, much stronger than any other has been, wouldn't it?

Mal

Whooo, whow, hold on everybody---, I doubt very much if Trajan's Column was influenced by the sculpture of Assyria. First, Trajan came some time later!!! A lot later!!! And as I understand it, Assryian sculpture was just about lost to recorded history until archaeology came into existence. Let's talk about the Trajan Column when we get to the Roman Empire.

Mal - In my first two paragraphs, I thought it was clear I was talking about Assyria and civilizations before that. In this discussion Durant will surely talk about what happened in America after it was discovered only a few centuries ago, I feel it will not be different for the reasons I mentioned. But will he explain DEMOCRACY? France, England, Spain just wanted to colonize this immense continent, there was nothing else here to bring back home except a few Indians, furs and a bit of gold. From Primitive man to the Assyrians, hundreds of centuries passed. America is an infant civilization. I don't know how future generations will cope with the developments that occurred in the last century alone, but they will suffer the brunt of its demise I'm afraid because ALL civilizations came back to their original state in the past. That is what history tells us I learned here.

Sorry about that Mal, I know how you feel that we can change the course of events and perhaps the course of future civilizations by sheer willpower, but I can only influence the very few people around me. I did and I still do.

Carolyn, please don't stop posting because there is so much I want to learn from you and from everybody else who post here. Robby will be furious (sad) if you do that.

Malryn I am trying to locate where this quote is taken from --

"spoils from the conquered nations helping in the development of the conquerors who then naturally aim at achieving the highest development ever know in past history"?

I understand what you are saying but I wonder if the strength of winning armies was really the small tribal squabbles to attempt to control a dominant culture rather than the larger cultural change of one civilization replacing the other. Canada never achieved a single cultural base with the French still influencing a large portion of the land, just as our own nation is driven by a mixture rather than just the English culture flourishing in early New England - we already early on had the Dutch and Germans affecting our culture. This civilization was not about purity of nationality as it is/was in Europe. I am thinking on the four areas that mark a civilization not just the military defeat or victories.

Also, this continent, so many of the early settlements were established for economic reasons - example: Jamestown was because the forests of Europe were being decimated by charcoal makers required to make these new fangled things called glass windows. Jamestown was going to be a new source of not just lumber but a global enterprise in the early seventeenth century - the new home of glass makers. Other than the pilgrims and later other religious groups, economic stimulus funded the sailing of ships filled with all levels of society from Europe who were planning to make their fortune and return to Europe.

The armies come into the fray when ambitious men in high places displayed their greed and ownership became an issue. When men decided that the natives were not using the land to their idea of its full potential. Until the very people that lined the pockets of Europe developed a different fighting system modeled after the natives they were conquering and turned against their greedy cousins in Europe. In fact recent history shows that the revolution was not really about higher taxes without representation at all. There was a stirring among the citizenry and times were right. The taxation bit was a good rallying cry.

And yet we continued to envy Europe's sophistication and art far into the 20th century, shipping European goods by the boat loads, considered the height of culture for over 400 years. Our museums are full of European art and the art of many nations we considered less because their military strength was weak. Our clothes were modeled on Parisian design long before Channel and Yves. As soon as a family had accumulated some security out went the sod roofed abode or log cabin and in came homes designed similar the those in Europe. We did not admire a fire in the middle of the room.

And so I see more truth in Eloise's comment. And as much as it pains me to agree I see a strong military is essential to a civilization. We owe the Talaban etc. a favor since we were certainly in the previous 8 years reducing and devaluing our military.

This concept is creating a personal crisis of spirit - how do I as an individual value and use war if need be to preserve my values. What is my military force. Should I always go with the flow in order to keep the peace. I may drown folks with my words as I try to share my values but, have I been as courageous about stating my boundaries and expectations for behavior in my presence. Hmmmm

Barbara, my post 317, third paragraph, "spoils from the conquered nations......etc." I did did not know I was quoting anybody. If someone find out who said this besides me, please let us know.

Hi, everybody. I'm a newcomer, but I find this discussion most interesting. I know little about Assyrian art, but I think I can tell you where the concept of "born bad" comes from If you have ever watched a two year old who has been tenderly loved and nurtured from birth interact with another two year old, you don't have any trouble believing in original sin. We are by nature greedy and selfish; we spend the child's formative years trying to teach him other ways of coping. (Some of us are still learning ourselves!) And real barbarism isn't that far behind us in time; the ravens still live at the Tower of London, although it's been a couple of hundred since the last execution there.

Robby they say that when an illness is observable it is late in the game - the cause, the system failure was not recognized or if recognized nothing was done to make change. They say each generation must re-establish their liberty, democracy, freedoms. Where liberty, deocracy, freedom is an inheritance it is the opportunity that is the inheritance not the outcome a birth right. And so what I think we need to discover is what system was not supporting this civilization long before the King of Assyria raises his question.

I don't think there was any direct Assyrian influence on Roman bas relief. Though I can see how you might infer that from my comments. However, I was refering primarily to the passing on of technique. Herodotus saw bas relief in the 5th century. The sculptors of Pergamon probably saw and experienced Assyrian bas relief although their work is not of the same quality. Alexander's people must have seen Assyrian bas relief and carried the technigues forward. The works may be hidden but the techniques are very often carried forward by others. Of course we don"t really know what was exposed from the 3rd century to the 1st when Roman sarcophagi sculpting developed.

Malryn: thanks for the Definitions.

Robby: You are right as usual. Specialist terms should always be well defined. Although our little family is pretty sharp.

Robby-Mal-Eloise-Ellen: In looking at all the past civilizations as described by the Durants, it appears that the spoils always went to the victors with the best equipped armies and soldiers who were the strongest.

Peaceful negotiations as proposed by leaders in the distant early centuries and as recommended by Neville Chamberain in this century always ended in disaster.

We would probably now be subject to the one world government that Mal has been advocating, and be under the rule of a dictator if we had lost WW2.

It would have resulted and been very detrimental if the Allies had lost WW2 and we would have now been under the control of either the Nazi or the Communist dictatorships.

IMHO The best survival mechanism for all countries and civilizations in every age was made by former President Theodore Roosevelt, when he said that in diplomatic dealing with other countries and civilizations we should always "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

Pat

" One of the lessons of history is that nothing is often a good thing to do and always a clever thing to say. "

Will Durant

I could not resist posting this quote as I have nothing new to say or add to this discussion today.

Barbara says:--"This concept is creating a personal crisis of spirit - how do I as an individual value and use war if need be to preserve my values. What is my military force. Should I always go with the flow in order to keep the peace. Hmmmm."

Barbara may be undergoing a personal crisis re-examining her values but I, as Discussion Leader, am most pleased to hear this. It had always been my hope when I started this forum that it would encourage each of us to look at ourselves more objectively. After all, "we" are the current civilization. It is certainly happening to me.

Pat says:--"IMHO The best survival mechanism for all countries and civilizations in every age was made by former President Theodore Roosevelt, when he said that in diplomatic dealing with other countries and civilizations we should always "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

Has what Durant shown us so far indicated that the "successful" ancient civilization were so because of their "soft speech - big stick" approach?

Robby

Eloise, Barbara, Pat, you've all misunderstood my post, the point of which is that there are other ways to have demise of civilizations than to have a conqueror take it over. Consider a few, why don't you?

Pat, by "worldwide govenment" I meant an authority of and for international laws which would prevent wars from happening in the far, far distant future, I hope.

SWN, I have already said "humans are born illiterate, without knowledge of language and ignorant." Children have to learn the difference between what's good behavior and what's not, and, no, I will never believe there was or is original sin.

Faith, you're right. Nothing is a very good thing to say.

Now I'm going outside and talk to the birds, who might possibly understand what I'm talking about when I say to the air that it's been a lovely, lovely day.

Mal

"Ashurbanipal died in 626 B.C. Fourteen years later an army of Babylonians under Nabopolassar united with an army of Medes under Cyaxares and a horde of Scythians from the Caucasus, and with amazing ease and swiftness captured the citadels of the north. Nineveh was laid waste as ruthlessly and completely as her kings had once ravaged Susa and Babylon. The city was put to the torch. The population was slaughtered or enslaved, and the palace so recently built by Ashurbanipal was sacked and destroyed.

The Near East remembered her for a while as a merciless unifer of a dozen lesser states. The Jews recalled Nineveh vengefully as 'the bloody city, full of lies and robbery.' In a little while all but the mightiest of the Great Kings were forgotten, and all their royal palaces were in ruins under the drifting sands."

And this, too, shall pass away.

Robby

Click HERE to see Assyrian treasures in the British museum.

Robby

Click HERE to see the mounds that used to be Nineveh.

Robby

If interested in the language spoken in Assyria, click HERE.

Robby

Mal: There are some signs that a united Europe may be possible. The European Union is one. The launching of the Euro is another. The pull of nationalism may be diminishing a liitle in that area of the world and it may lead to exactly what you suggest. Peace. Benelux is another sign. The members may squabble over national interests a little just as we squabble over states rights but unification is the goal.

I know it's late to comment on earlier posts but here goes. Barbara, your #300 and 301 are powerful comments. Malryn: Thanks for the links to the Trajan columns. #316 They and the scenery behind them are breathtaking.

The Battle on the Plains of Abraham in Quebec City where General Wolfe won Canada for the British had a different result from other battles where one country'r rule replaced another, in this case France. The English realized the reality of the French fact in Quebec and treated them as equals who had a culture that should be maintained. There has been ongoing problems ever since because even though French rights are written into the Constitution, people are people and the English tended to be the prosperous, business people and the French were kept out of better jobs and felt second class in their own country. Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau changed a lot of this but the problems still persist in another form. I know this is for a future discussion but I wanted to add it in anyway. Durant will not be covering modern Canadian politics.

My comment, as the Assyrian chapter ends, is that perhaps a civilization ends because the rulers lose sight of their original goals and ideals and become soft and self satisfied.

Here we are in the last quarter of the 7th century BCE. We are 1/3 of the way through volume one and I now realize the magnitude of the Durant undertaking. The work is enormous and the research required to support the detail of the study staggers my mind. I am in awe of the magnitude of this scholarship. I am also very grateful that Robby took it on for Senior Net.

Sharon said:--"My comment, as the Assyrian chapter ends, is that perhaps a civilization ends because the rulers lose sight of their original goals and ideals and become soft and self satisfied."

Do you folks see the rulers of the civilizations we have examined so far as having set up orginal goals and ideals in the first place? I see the newly founded United States, for example, as having set up goals and ideals in the Constitution. Did those rulers do the same?

Thank you, Justin, for commenting on my "taking on" this discussion group. I never allow myself to forget, however, that if all you folks do not continually participate, I am "dead."

Robby

It is hard for me to imagine these early rulers having goals other than winning the crown, keeping it, and expanding its control. If a ruler had goals they were probably associated with winning battles and fending off attackers. Not quite the same thing as US founders had in mind for themselves and other prospective citizens. I see no concern among Assyrian rulers for the welfare of the common folk. People were cheap. They appear to have been expendable. If they were killed in battle, so what. Plenty more where they came from. Keep the ladies pregnant and there will be nothing to fear.

Here is something very significant. This university is reenacting the Assyrian laying of a cornerstone..so it is so pertinent to our discussion of relating this ancient history to our present day that I will put the clickable in before we are off to Greece or whereever http://wwwnews.uchicago.edu/releases/97/970603.oriental.cstone.shtml

Faith; No luck with the cornerstone clickable.

I'm sure that many factors contributed to the demise of the Assyrian empire, and while it may be interesting to identify them - and learn from them, as well as about them. In the end that empire, and all empires would have died any way. The idea that coinage, art, philosophy, democracy or some other exilir will give life eternal to a particular empire, I believe, is errant foolishness.

Things (including human beings, empires and pots and pans) come together in a form that we human beings endow with a name, they remain identifiable as such for awhile, and they fall apart to become the makings of something else.

This is the way it is.

Perhaps we may learn from history how to make the "lasting" period longer and the demise less painful - though I would not bet the farm on that. But in the end everything perishes. The pain of the passing may be wretched, but the fact of passing is an immutable law nevertheless. This is the way it is for all things, all times - and nothing from belief in brute force, to democracy, to the gods to nuclear power will change the fact that in the end whatever we call Assyrian, or Roman or American will pass away.

My personal inclination is more and more to believe that this is a positive good, and that human goodness and achievement consists in not creating pain and misery as we live our individual lives. One more person in each country in the world who refrainined from hostile and malicious actions toward his/her neighbors and, if possible, was able to be actively good as well would be worth losing all our knowledge of the Assyrians perhaps.

Jack

Justin - My son is an Economist, he has been working in Switzerland for almost 20 years. I asked him about the EEC, he warned of the dangers of a united Europe because together they are over 300 million people. They have a strong economic union and if they decide to strengthen their military, they could become a threat. In my opinion, until they speak the same language - English is already strongly established there - there is no danger of that happening. Right now they go separately wherever the United Nations needs to send troops such as in Afghanistan.

Mal - I wish I had your optimism sometimes about the future of this world. I don't know if it is pessimism or just observation of what is going on in the world, but at this time I don't think it is possible for one President or King, with his government, to govern 5 billion people peacefully.

Jack - Well said. There will be no stone on stone left in the end says the Bible.

We will shortly be entering Judea, but first Durant wants us to examine a few smaller civilizations which may appear minor but which, according to Durant, had long lasting effects. The periodically-changing GREEN quotes above will help those who do not have the book. Durant tells us:--

"To a distant and yet discerning eye the Near East, in the days of Nebuchadrezzar, would have seemed like an ocean in which vast swarms of human beings moved about in turmoil, forming and dissolving groups, enslaving and being enslaved, eating and being eaten, killing and getting killed -- endlessly. There was, however, a medley of half nomad, half settled tribes who each felt themselves the center of geography and history, and would have marveled at the ignorant prejudice of an historian who would reduce them to a paragraph.

"Throughout the history of the Near East such nomads were a peril to the more settled kingdoms which they almost surrounded. Periodically droughts would fling them upon these richer nations, necessitating frequent wars, and perpetual readiness for war. Usually the nomad tribe survived the settled kingdom and overran it in the end. The world is dotted with areas where once civilization fourished, and where nomads roam again. In this seething ethnic sea certain minor states took shape, which, even if only as conductors, contributed their mite to the heritage of the race."

Let us pause and think. We have in our time certain "settled kingdoms" around the world. In your mind, any examples either now or in recent history where "nomad tribes" overran any of these settled civilizations? Did any of these "outsiders" consider their culture the primary (if not the only) culture in existence? Were any of them a "peril" to the more settled civilizations? Any examples in recent history where the "nomads" overran the "settled kingdoms?" If such "outsiders" exist, are we in our settled smugness, blind to their existence and/or power?

Robby

The peoples of the southern portion of the globe are in the process of swallowing those to the north. In Europe it is Middle Easterners and Africans; in North America Hispanics. And throughout the globe impoverished Asians are moving in large numbers.

It is one of the largest and fastest migrations in history. If it often seems that the northern countries have looted the world, then then southern peoples look to have decided to sit down at the banquet.

The demographic projections are that by the middle of this century forty percent of all "white" Americans will be of Hispanic origin; and the "non-white" portion of the whole population will be around forty percent as well. Europe shows similar trends; Japan is not replenishing its population at a rate that will allow it to keep out foreigners and still maintain their current level of production and services. The "outsiders" are pouring into the "settled kingdoms" once again it seems.

Jack

For those of us who haven't been noticing what is going on in the world, Jack calls to our attention that "the 'outsiders' are pouring into the "settled kingdoms" once again."

A powerful post which causes us to pause and ponder.

Reactions, please?

Robby

Robby - Are not the nomadic Talibans trying to eliminate the non Muslim world? We were not blind to their existence, but perhaps blind to their power to strike such a blow on September 11th.

Good morning, everyone. Gray skies here today.

Eloise, would you believe it if I told you what you said to me yesterday kept me awake a good part of last night? This is what I said in Post 330. "Pat, by 'worldwide govenment' I meant an authority of and for international laws which would prevent wars from happening in the far, far distant future, I hope." You see, everybody, I've always admired Woodrow Wilson and his idea of a League of Nations and Wendell Wilkie's fervent belief that we are, after all, One World. That's the point I've been making all along, way out and absurd as it may seem to the rest of the world.

About outsiders moving into settled empires: What's wrong with that? Are we to remain isolated ethnic and racial groups that have trouble getting along with each other because we don't understand and tolerate our differences? I'd love to hear some of the reasons why people think that is a negative thing. How many of us here are of "pure blood" and thoroughbreds who meet American Kennel Club standards? Very few, I'd say off the top of my head.

Now I think I'll back off from this discussion a while before I get myself into deeper trouble. Even the mildest of People Bashing is not my style, and I feel rather wounded by misunderstandings right now.

Mal

Mal - I am so sorry to have caused you some sleeplessness, but it certainly was not my intention. Now, that will cause me to stay awake too. I am saying what I think in S of C in the same way everybody in this forum is saying it. So please continue to post, we all appreciate your input and your very interesting links that I visit and learn from. I am so grateful for having you among us even if our phylosophy is different.

Sincère amitié, Eloïse

I don't know whether my remarks on this subject might have been misunderstood; however, in regard to the migration of people from the (mostly) southern hemisphere into the northern countries where there is more luxury and stability: I have no problem with this, at least as a dry - somewhat "abstract" - fact. And the ethnic and racial blending that will inevitably result is a matter of zero concern.

How this migration occurs, i.e. the push and shove, adjustments, etc. may involve things that will/would bother me a great deal of course. I lived in southern Portugal and was used to the news stories of illegal migrants crossing - often dying in the attempt - the treacherous straits at night into Spain. Just as the Vietnam War photo of the child whose skin had been burned off, running shrieking down the highway is emblematic of that era for me, I have acquired a photo image this great modern migration that is now emblematic of it for me. The photo is of a beach in southern Spain with lounge chairs set out for sun bathing. The European and tourist sunbathers have crowded themselves together a bit on a group of lounges, leaving a group of them unused just off to the side. The reason: the bodies of illegal African immigrants whose frail boat capsized in the night have washed up amongst those chaise lounges. I happen to believe that already the life of the U.S. (and Europe too) is being culturally expanded and enriched at least in small ways by these people. Although as the impact of their numbers increases and resultant changes become profound times may be rough and difficult before new cultures are established. Of course I can face the end of empire with equanimity since as a senior I am unlikely to have to adjust to basic changes in the cultural environment before I die.

On the other hand, my own departure from the U.S. was a conscious decision to emigrate to new culture, and had nothing to do with finding a place with a better climate or cheaper cost of living. After much researching and thought about retirement in the U.S. I decided that what I wanted was at least some taste of the new world a-coming. Sundays is an extremely quiet here, but when I walk through this quiet provincial town I see the new Europe enjoying the day off - most of the people on the streets are Sri Lankan and Philippino.

Jack

"Usually the nomad tribe survived the settled kingdom and overran it in the end."

- - - Will Durant

Various software changes are being made in Senior Net, so if you are suddenly having problems, it will turn out all right. It is temporary. Just make sure you are "subscribed" to the discussions to which you want to regularly return.

Robby

Our Systems Operator (SYSOP) tells us:--"SeniorNet is doing a bit of reorganization. Links to our discussions can be found on our home-page or at discussions.seniornet.org. Please change all your bookmarks to reflect this change. We apologize for any inconvenience.

Civilization marches on!

Mal, please keep writing. You're articulating much of my philosophy and doing it ever so much better than I ever could.

MaryWZ

Here is a LINK to a forum about problems. When you get there, I suggest you print it out. Then if further problems arise, this may be of help.

Robby

Kevxu says that the demographic projections of North America by the middle of this century will be that 40% of all white Americans will be "hispanic" and non white will be 40%.

The word hispanic is a misnomer. The immigration of millions from south of our borders do not include whites. The Mexicans speak a form of Spanish but are not white. Neither are any of the other millions who are coming from all over Central America and the Caribbean. Most are indigenous peoples who have many languages and tribal affilations, but they are not white. The projections you state may be true, and if it is that will mean that only 20% of North America will be white by the middle of this century.

No country can be invaded either by war or immigration and not change its civilization. If we continue on the path of unlimited immigration then of course we will be a different civilization. The illegals from south of our border are many but the illegals in this country now from all over the world pose a greater threat than those south of the border. A country who does not defend her borders will always be overrun and changed, and at the present time we have no defense and I see no change in the offing.

Why would a country not defend her borders? Greed, by our government officials who do not enforce our laws and continue to be bought and paid for by corporations who want cheaper labor. This may be the first civilization that falls because of greed, who did not go to war on their neighbors to get it.

Fifi broadens our horizons about the population influx:--"Most are indigenous peoples who have many languages and tribal affilations."

We often forget that new arrivals from Brazil might have originated from numerous tribes -- or those from Mexico for example, or Nicaragua, or Columbia, or Bolivia, or Vietnam, or Laos, or Nigeria, or Republic of Congo -- you name it. "Members of outlying tribes moving in to settled kingdoms."

Robby

Durant brings us back to the Ancient Near East:--"In this seething ethnic sea certain minor states took shape, which, even if only as conducctors, contributed their mite to the heritage of the race. The Mitannians interest us not as the early antagonists of Egypt in the Near East, but as one of the first Indo-European people known to us in Asia, and as the worshipers of gods -- Mithra, Indra and Varuna -- whose passage to Persia and India helps us to trace the movements of what was once so conveniently called the 'Aryan' race."

We will contact these "Aryans" again when we move into India.

Robby

My own family is a part of the world change in population origin. My son-in-law is Black American whose family migrated in a boxcar from Arkansas to work in the woods of Eastern Oregon. His son (my grandson) is dating a polynesian girl from Hawaii. My daughter's father's family came from Norway to Oregon, my father's family from Sweden to Minnesota, the rest of my family from West Virginia and Illinois by wagon train to Oregon and they had migrated to those states originally from Ireland, Scotland and Switzerland. My other son-in-law is German and my European grandchildren speak, read and write three languages and live in Germany. I hope to live long enough to see what the NEXT generation will be! World citizens first I hope. Now back to the Motley of Nations.

Ellen:--Why do I get the feeling that your family has invaded the "settled kingdom?"

Robby

"The Hittites were among the first most powerful and civilized of the early Indo-European peoples. Apparently they had come down across the Bosphorus, the Hellespont, the Aegean or the Caucasus, and had established themselves as a ruling military caste over the indigenous agriculturists of that mountainous peninsula, south of the Black Sea, which we know as Asia Minor.

"Towards 1800 B.C. we find them settled near the sources of the Tigris and the Euphrates. Thence they spread their arms and influence into Syria, and gave mighty Egypt some indignant concern. We have seen how Rameses II was forced to make peace with them, and to acknowledge the Hittite king as his equal. At Boghaz Keui they made their capital and centered their civilization -- first on the iron which they mined in the mountains bordering on Armenia, -- then on a code of laws much influenced by Hammurabi's -- and finally on a crude esthetic sense which drove them to carve vast and awkward figures in the round, or upon the living rock."

As we pause to examine them, let us keep in mind that they were Indo-European peoples, a fact which becomes more pertinent as the centuries pass.

Robby

Could someone identify where these lines came from "The Assyrians came down like wolves from the fold, their cohorts all gleaming with silver and gold"--- or something like that. My father used to say it, and I don't know why.It's been haunting me. Jan

I never heard it, Jan. But aside from that -- nice to see you posting here!!

Robby

Click HERE to learn all about the Hittites.

Robby

Jan:

The lines you quoted came from Byron's poem.

The Destruction of Sennacherib

Click HERE to learn all about the Hittites.

Robby

The pessimism that has entered the conversation may be necessary to make folks feel above the current turmoil. However, like Mal, I see one world as an ideal to strive toward. The movement of large groups of people into settled communities I find less disturbing than many of you do.

The young folks have been leaving the farm for urban areas for the last century. Mexicans have crossed into the U.S. in great numbers in the last 50 years. We have absorbed a great Asian influx since Vietnam although they have not completely integrated with the settled population yet. They have come peacefully and I think they will contribute greatly to the well being of this nation. It is our ability to absorb immigrants into our political framework that will provide us with sustaining life as a civilization. Sure they will bring change but it will be contained within the American political framework. That may be the saving grace.

Never before has there been a political framework such as this one we call a republic. Previously mass movement of migratory peoples into an area changed the political framework and that made something new out of the old. So the previous civilization disappeared. Otimistically, The more countries adopt and make work an effective democratic framework the greater their chance to absorb change without dissolution.

Hi all,

Finally found my way here.

It quite often seems to me that we have not progressed at all as a species. We have bigger and mightier weapons. We have more possessions to fight about because we include "Institutions" as possessions.

Will we ever become HUMANE?

I've always wanted to see a "Time Line" during Biblical Israel showing Japan, China, and the rest of the world at that time.

Carla safta77@barak-online.net

One world is an ideal that will be long in coming. I see little steps made along that path. Some are not very secure steps, they are tentative. But here and there some are sustaining. The United Nations is one such step. There is also the European Union and the currency unification. In spite of Eloise and her economist son's concern, these unifying efforts to bring Europe together will in the long run make it easier to discus conflicts without mass bloodshed. I think the same is true for the association of American States. These are perfect but we must learn to walk before we can run. The individual members of these groups are still much concerned about sovereignty. When we learn to handle that issue as well as other power issues we may,optimisticly ,achieve, a workable degree of cohesivness.

Welcome. Stick around. Durant may well give you the time line you have been looking for. I am looking for the same line and I expect to see one before Volume one is complete.

FiFi le Beau wrote: "The word Hispanic is a misnomer. The immigration of millions from south of our borders do not include whites."

This is a scandalous mischaracterization of the people and the situation. Hispanic is applied to the culture of South and Central America, plus Mexico and the islands of the Caribbean that were former Spanish colonies. The physical appearance of the peoples of these areas includes European, Native American and Black African types, and many admixtures. The countries of Costa Rica and Uruguay have populations that are more than 95 percent of European origin, they are, nevertheless, part of the Hispanic culture. The Argentinians are likewise overwhelmingly European in makeup; whereas Chile has a unassimilated Native Americans but is largely European in the appearance of its people. Hispanic people on the whole run the gamut from lily white to dark black, with the presence in some countries of many more Native Americans and Native American characteristics in people of mixed blood because the Spanish did not manage to exterminate the Native Americans as successfully as was done in the United States. The use of the term Hispanic as a racial descriptive is because the race obsession in the United States culture has made it a racial classification there - despite the obvious wide range of skin colors among the people included. The desperate American need for a place to put the not-quite-white.

"The Mexicans speak a form of Spanish but are not white. Neither are any of the other millions who are coming from all over Central America and the Caribbean."

Absolutely untrue! Hispanics are represented in all their skin color variations in the immigrants who are arriving in the United States. I worked with them and lived among hundreds of thousands of them them for forty years, and I am not blind.

"Most are indigenous peoples who have many languages and tribal affilations, but they are not white." Most of them speak Spanish of necessity and they are overwhelmingly "ladino" culturally, not "tribal.

"The projections you state may be true, and if it is that will mean that only 20% of North America will be white by the middle of this century."

Which should prove salutary to a country where racism was built into its constitution and had been accepted as an integral part of the warp and woof of its heritage until almost the midpoint of the 20th Century - not even fifty years ago. I regret that I will not live to see the day.

"A country who does not defend her borders will always be overrun and changed, and at the present time we have no defense and I see no change in the offing."

The American image of an undefended border with Mexico is mindboggling. It is studded with barbed wire, walls, ditches and floodlights and is constantly patroled. (Nevertheless, the South _will_ move north.) I live in a country with an armed enemy in its thousands a few kilometers from my doorstep, the line that separates me from them should only be this well looked after!

I am a "white" American. But I am your worst fear, which is to say that I and my cousins and our maternal families are mixed blooded people who have _passed_ for white for three generations now. Despite skin the color of milk, green eyes and straight hair until less than fifty years ago I would have been legally "Negro" in many states of the U.S. and would certainly - because of having "a hint of the tarbrush," as they used to say - have been considered so by most Americans of European origin, and treated accordingly. The poppycock that has, and continues, to parade as fact over race in America and the flap over non-European immigrants is grotesque.

I apologize to the group for the long digression from Durant. However, while I am a strong advocate of free speech, one does not have to be a captive audience to it when it manifests untruth. It was not for the likes of this that I emigrated from the U.S. so late in life, and I shall put the time spent in this group into a little patch of garden from now on. I wish you all an enjoyable discussion.

Jack

P.S.: I am quite in agreement with Justin and Mal on the desirability and nature of the changes that will come; however, the end result will be - as it always has been - the emergence of a new civilization. It will inherit from America, but it will not be the old America, any more than Byzantium was Rome.<

Kevxu, I so agree and thank you for the corrections you provided. Pedigree white, like 'purity of race', should be a thing of the past but some never learn.

It is hateful the way people distort facts to make them fit their arguments. Some one wrote in a previous post:
"The French atheist, Voltaire, one hundred years ago said that the Bible will be forgotten and found only in museums. And today Voltaire’s home is occupied by the Geneva Bible Society."
It surprised me much because it was not so when I lived and studied in Geneva and I wrote to a friend in Geneva asking for an update. The answer came and told me:
"J'ai visité la maison de Voltaire à Genève. Il y produisait ses pièces de théâtre.
J'ai vu un musée Voltaire et une bibliothèque avec ses livres et manuscrits d'époque. Je ne pense pas que cela change. Surtout que ce n'était pas du tout dans ses idées.
Il habitait le château de Voltaire à Ferney-Voltaire qui est maintenant propriété d'état et un centre culturel et artistique qui produit des spectacles et accueille pour une année un auteur ou écrivain étranger exclu de son pays.
Both his houses are a museum, a theatre and a cultural and artistic place for foreign writers. No Bible related institution.

Sorry for this aparte, I had to get it of my chest. Bubble

Carla (Safta):--A warm welcome to you from our "family" here. We are looking foward to your continued participation.

Please note just below my name above there is a Link which says "Link to past Story of Civilization discussions." You might find it advantageous to skim (read it all in detail if you wish) our earlier posts to get an idea of what we were discussing from Primitive Man through Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, to where we are now.

You (and others here who have not done so) might also find it beneficial to read the very first post in this series given on November 4th. It sets the tone for this forum.

Jack says:--"I apologize to the group for the long digression from Durant.

The emotion that Jack felt as he wrote his last post came through in his words. Many of us here feel emotional as we express our views on this sometimes sensitive topic. However, all of us here appear to be following our procedure of "disagreeing in an agreeable and respectful" manner. If we all thought the same way, the discussion would disappear. As for "digressing," Jack, your comment and others in the same vein most certainly relate to Durant's speaking of "outsiders" moving in with the "insiders."

Robby

A liberal translation from Bubble's portion of her post which is in French:

I visited Voltaire’s house in Geneva. He used to have theatre shows in it. I saw a Voltaire museum and a library with his books and period manuscripts. I do not think that that has changed. Especially because it was not something he would have thought about. He lived in a ‘château’ at Voltaire at Ferney-Voltaire which is now state owned, in a cultural and artistic center offering theatre productions and now welcomes, for one year, foreign writers or authors who are banned from their country of origin.

Kevxu - We enjoy your posts immensely and it would be our loss if you stopped posting.

Bubble, you say: "It is hateful the way people distort facts to make them fit their arguments."Everyone of us -- I most certainly include myself -- find ourselves through life making statements which we were convinced were so, not going to the source and checking it out in detail. May I suggest that this is not "hateful" but is merely following the "less than scientific" method often followed in everyday life. We don't always "distort facts" purposely. Your comment, however, emphasizes the importance, especially in a group like ours which is discussing such a serious and personal topic, of pausing a bit before making flat statements. In my own case, for example, I try my best (not always successful) to preface many of my remarks with such phrases as "I have heard that" or "to the best of my knowledge" or "it is my understanding that."

If nothing else, Durant's comments about "nomad tribes" and "settled kingdoms" brought to the fore some of our below-conscious feelings of outsiders vs insiders or different vs same.

Robby

Eloise:--Thank you for using your translation abilities to help those of us who do not speak or read French.

Robby

Let us continue seeing what Durant has to say about what he called "A Motley of Nations."

"The language of the Hittites, recently deciphered by Hronzny from the ten thousand clay tablets found at Boghaz Keui by Hugo Winckler, was largely of Indo-European affinity. Its declensional and conjugational forms closely resembled those of Latin and Greek, and some of its simpler words are visibly akin to English.

"The Hittites wrote a pictographic script in their own queer way -- one line from left to right, the next from right to left, and so forth alternately. They learned cuneiform from the Babylonians, taught Crete the use of the clay tablet for writing, and seem to have mingled with the ancient Hebrews intimately enough to have given them their sharply aquiline nose, 'so that this Hebraic feature must now be considered strictly Aryan.'"

Again, the power wielded by these so-called lesser civilizations. Comments, anyone?

Robby

Start off your day with an AMUSING BUT FASCINATING ARTICLE about the Hittite language being spoken right now right here in America!

Robby

This easily understood TIMELINE not only tells us about the Hittites but shows the co-existence of the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Assyrians with the Hittites.

Robby

Of course, I cannot stay away from this fascinating discussion for long. I am much moved by kevxu (Jack's) post, which expresses many of the same feelings I've had about my country and its prejudices, biases and racism. I wonder how many people believe Jews are a race of people?

There are other kinds of discrimination here besides those against race and nationality as well; religious discrimination is the first one that comes to my mind. How many Jews have you known in the past who were refused admittance to certain clubs, organizations and housing because of their religion?

There also has been discrimination against people with handicaps like Sea Bubble and me. Because of a crippling illness I had as a child, jobs and housing were refused to me after my marriage ended and I was alone on my own. Through legislation at last, the problem is less severe, but there still exists among some a very old idea that because a person is even slightly disabled, his or her brain was affected by whatever caused the disability, and it's a darned good idea to stay away from those people. You didn't know about that bias and prejudice? Well, it has existed and is still around.

Legislation in the favor of handicapped people took centuries to come. Legislation can't change the attitudes of people about race, religion and disability, but it certainly helps with the way people who are "different" are treated.

I might say here that when I travelled in Europe in the 70's I was alone a good deal of the time because my husband was working throughout the period we were in five different countries. Where was I, a handicapped person, treated best? France.

Don't go away, Jack. We need you here.

I read a most interesting thing about the Hittites in one of the links Robby posted. They treated all gods as equals, and accepted into their society the gods of people they conquered. This suggests to me that they also accepted some of the culture of these people.

The laws of the Hittites were based on the Hammurabi Code of Law, but penalties were far, far less severe. Durant says that "the Hittites were among the most powerful and civilized of the early Indo-European peoples." I'd like to know more about these people who "disappeared from history almost as mysteriously as they entered it."

Mal

Emotion = Passion

It is not always proper to use the word ‘passion’ because of its sexual connotation, but I consider the word appropriate while speaking about our excesses of behavior. After all I have reached the time when I can say what I feel and suffer the consequences.

Historians sometimes don’t explain or transmit enough the passions that provoked a population to want to develop at all cost to their highest potential, but passion is the fuel that propels mankind to great as well as appalling acts.

Passion is the strongest emotion in the young adult. A young man will actually LOVE joining the army and fight in war. I remember when my husband tried joining the army three times at the start of the war, but he was rejected each time. It seems to be a male thing, and more so when they have just reached adulthood. They want to test their strength and take risks even with their own life.

The passion of writers, those who changed the face of the earth. I can’t name them all, there are too many, but Karl Marx was one. The most passionate writers can change the course of history.

Passionate love has been responsible for changing the borders of several countries in the past. It is easy to say that we have wisdom when we reach senior years but wisdom replaced the passion that, for some, vanished with time and rationalization took its place.

To believe in God passionately is what keeps people both in bondage and in freedom, in bondage for a deep fundamentalist religion governing a country and in freedom of religion in a Democracy. Excessive religiosity, in fact, was the cause of the demise of several countries because of irrational beliefs. On the other side of the coin, some are passionately atheists.

Anger is a passion, which arises out of the blue for apparently no good reason and can break relationships between family members for years, sometimes forever. Anger is the cause of murder almost all the time.

I have seen people who were passionately patriotic. They feel a deep love for their country akin to loving a mate. Their emotion, when their country is attacked, causes them to go into deep depression.

Passion governs our lives. Not rationalization and theories about what SHOULD be done in a given circumstance. Take away the passion and a flat existence occurs, one devoid of purpose and beauty. Great artists and great statesmen are ALL passionate.

Passion is part of our makeup and to channel it into positive actions sometimes takes a whole lifetime of effort but we have to be rational to apply that to the maximum, not passionate.

Eloïse

Eloise has written a wonderful essay on "passion." (Editor Mal: take note!)

It is always proper to use the word "passion" when one wants. It is a perfectly good English word. Why do you think I suggested this Discussion Group and volunteered to be the Discussion Leader? I have a passionate thirst for knowledge. Why do you think I continued to be DL for Democracy in America 13 months? I love my nation passionately. I have a passion for Life! What do you think keeps me going as I enter my ninth decade?

Thank you, Eloise, for reminding us of the true meaning of that word and, by so doing, emphasizing that it has a place in this important forum.

Robby

"Just north of Assyria was a comparatively stable nation, known to the Assyrians as Uratu, to the Hebrews as Ararat, and to later times as Armenia. For many centuries, beginning before the dawn of recorded history and continuing until the establishment of Persian rule over all of western Asia, the Armenians maintained their independent government, their characteristic customs and arts.

"Under their greatest king, Argistis II (ca. 708 B.C.), they grew rich by mining iron and selling it to Asia and Greece. They achieved a high level of prosperity and comfort, of culture and manners. They built great edifices of stone, and made excellent vases and statuettes. They lost their wealth in costly wars of offense and defense against Assyria, and passed under the Persian domination in the days of the all-conquering Cyrus."

And so here is another one of those "motley of nations."

Robby

Here is a link to ARMENIAN HISTORY to those interested in their background.

Robby

One of the ancestors of the English language is the ARMENIAN LANGUAGE. This intriguing link shows some of the relationships.

Robby

Am I wrong? I thought that iron came from iron oxide (paint rock) and was made into metallic iron by a process of fire. I wonder-what human suddenly found metallic iron in the ashes where there had been fires on certain rocks. Just think what a rapid change the introduction of iron made on the cultures of the Near East. As always- change creates a whole new state of being!

There were many families of Armenian descent in my hometown in Massachusetts. The one big difference I noticed with the Chooljian family who lived a field away from where I grew up, besides the language they spoke in their home, was the food they ate. Mrs. Chooljian came up the street with a basket and picked wild grape leaves growing by the pond across the street from the house where I lived. My brother was friendly with the younger boy and told me, for heaven's sake, that she cooked them and the family ate them! Of course, by now I've eaten Dolmas many, many times.

I learned later that, despite the fact that Mr. Chooljian didn't own a car and took the bus wherever he wanted to go, he was quite well off. He owned several buildings downtown which he rented out. He also had a beautiful vegetable garden where his front yard should have been, and raised vegetables my brother and I never heard of.

The older Chooljian son went to Tufts and became a dentist. The younger received an undergraduate degree and an MBA from Harvard and was the CEO of a corporation at a very early age. The white anglo-saxon Protestant aunt and uncle who raised me in that neighborhood always looked down their noses at the Chooljians.

Mal

kevxv: please don't leave!

Robby: I am always amazed at how easily Mal researches facts, and then provides us with data and links to further our thinking and knowledge She would be quite an asset on the college speaker circuit.

Like Mal and Justin, I also see one world as an ideal we should always strive toward

However while studying and thinking about Durant's history of previous civilizations in this forum, and looking back at the jealousies of past nations, races and religions as he narrates them, I also see the immensity of the problems that have to be overcome in order to achieve this Utopia.

One of Durant"s most pertinent comments was, "Civilization begins where insecurity ends."

When WW2 started I enlisted with two friends, Jake, who was of Jewish origin, and Smoky, who was a native American, a Mohawk Indianfrom the Akwasnee Reservation near my home town However, during basic training, we realized that there was much racial discrimination and intolerance prevalent throughout other areas of the country, as some of our fellow recruits demonstrated this.

Being of french descent, I was labelled as "a frog", Jake was jewish, so he was "a kike ". Smoky was Indian so he was "a geronimo" An Italian was "a wop", a German was "a kraut", a Hispanic was "a spick" if he was from the north, and "a greaser",if he was from the south, and there were other labels for other races and nationalities.

WW2 became the great melting pot, and after fighting through Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany and Austria against a common enemy, protecting each other's backs, we realized that the holocaust was caused by us all.

Never again would we be intolerant of others because of race, color or creed.

Pat

Patrick, I second the motion-Jack, please don't leave!

I think we have gotten hung up on epithets. Fifi (I think) started this discussion by expressing a fear of our civilization being swallowed up by people with other cultural ideals and religions. I don't think her fear is unrealistic. I too would like to see our culture unchanged (actually I would prefer the one that disappeared at the end of the fifties); I don't think it will happen. Fifi is right, if we don't defend our heritage we will lose it. We will likely lose it anyway. It is true that our government was built on the foundations of Western culture and it will change (perhaps for better, perhaps for worse) with the influx of people of different values and beliefs. It may even end in total collapse as the country proceeds further toward being completely ungovernable; it may produce a system different from any previously seen. It is natural for us to like our own. It is worth noting that when any great empire falls, there is apt be a dark age following. Not our problem. As for wops, kikes, etc, in the days of my youth in the South the word nigger was used as a descriptive term, mostly without any opprobium at all. I believe some (many?) Black people still use it that way. I don't ever remember being called a honky (which I think was originally only applied to those of Hungarian extraction) but I don't usually get into public confrontations. I have no doubt that I would be so called in a heartbeat if I did.

"Still father north, along the shores of the Black Sea, wandered the Scythians, a horde of warriors half Mongol and half European - ferocious bearded giants who lived in wagons - kept their women in purdah seclusion - rode bareback on wild horses - fought to live and lived to fight - drank the blood of their enemies and used the scalps as napkins - weakened Assyria with repeated raids - swept through western Asia (ca. 630-610 B.C.) - destroying and killing everything and everyone in their path - advanced to the very cities of the Egyptian Delta - were suddenly decimated by a mysterious disease - and were finally overcome by the Medes and driven back to their northern haunts.

"We catch from such a story another glimpse of the barbaric hinterland that hedged in every ancient state."

Any comments?

Robby

SWN says:--"It is true that our government was built on the foundations of Western culture."

Is that, in fact true, or as we continue to examine our "oriental heritage", are we finding that the deeper foundation was Eastern?

Robby

Click onto THE SCYTHIANS to read about this extraordinary tribe and let the map show you where they were located.

Robby

Here is an ARTICLE published just this month in the New York Times about the Scythians.

Robby

When Columbus first discovered AmericaThe Native Americans in this country were still following the same customs as the nomadic Scythian tribes.

They rode horses and collected the scalps of their enemies as trophies.

Pat

Will someone please correct me? I didn't know the Indians had horses until the Europeans arrived.

Robby

Spanish horses were brought by Cortez. Many escaped in Mexico and on the Spanish trips overland to Florida. These became the wild horse of the America's. The plains Indians then learned to use the horse in the 1600's. faith

I expect my light hearted remark about the fifties will offend some. I realize that was a very bad time for a lot of people. I was thinking of Ike in the White House, movies the whole family could enjoy, books without constant obscenities, no drive-by shootings, more public civility, although perhaps more private pain among those not included in the general good times. Besides, I was young then.

Robby, the influence of earlier eastern cultures was incorporated into what I think of as Western civilization. Certainly the wandering tribes of the middle east, some of whom overan Europe from time to time have contributed to our art and culture, and perhaps even our form of government through their influence on Greece and Rome. Celts, who I believe were related to the Scythians,pretty much covered much of Europe and the British Isles at one time. Arabs contributed mightily to Western astronomy and mathematics.

My post apologizing for my light-hearted remark about the fifties seems to have disappeared. The main attribute of the fifties that I liked was I was young then. There were always good things, and, I realize, a lot of bad and unjust things as well.

Below is a link to Prehistoric Art in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg in Russia. Be sure to click the link to the tattoos found on the human skin of a chief.

Prehistoric Art

Below is a link to Scythian bronze and bone art.

Scythian art

Please click below to see Scythian gold artwork.

Scythian gold

Mal, thanks for posting the link to Byron's poem, you always come up trumps. I had my words a bit screw wiff though.

I love lurking on this site but when I wake up there are usually 30 or 40 posts here and the subject I want to comment on is exhausted!! Last night I watched a programme on Australian S.B.S about archaeoligists excavating the tomb of a Scythian Prince.He was buried with, I think 17 horses decorated with wooden and golden ornaments. They must have been a practical race because the horses they sacrificed were ones that were getting past their useful life. The scientists removed the graves contents in large blocks of frozen earth, so as not to lose material by thawing too soon.

Interesting to see, the Prince had been operated on by trepanning(sp?) 2000 years ago Jan

SWN, you say:--"I expect my light hearted remark about the fifties will offend some." We're not a bit offended. Most of us were around then and we know exactly to what you were referring. Incidentally, your remark is still there. It didn't disappear from my screen.

Jan tells us:--"I love lurking on this site but when I wake up there are usually 30 or 40 posts here and the subject I want to comment on is exhausted!!"

To begin with, you're not the only one who has said that. We have no objection to anyone giving a reaction to an earlier posting. It all adds to our general knowledge. Secondly, that problem can be solved. Don't go to sleep! Civilization marches on!

Robby

Durant continues:--"Toward the end of the ninth century B.C. a new power arose in Asia Minor, inheriting the remains of the Hittite civilization, and serving as a cultural bridge to Lydia and Greece. The legend by which the Phrygians tried to explain for curious historians the foundation of their kingdom was symbolical of the rise and fall of nations.

"Their first king, Gordios, was a simple peasant whose sole inheritance had been a pair of oxen. Their next king, his son Midas, was a spendthrift who weakened the state by that greed and extravagance which posterity represented through the legend of his plea to the gods that he might turn anything to gold by touching it. The plea was so well heard tht everything Midas touched turned to gold, even the food that he put to his lips. He was on the verge of starvation when the gods allowed him to cleanse himself of the curse by bathing in the river Pactolus -- which has given up grains of gold ever since."

The father was the source of the Horatio Alger story of rags to riches and who would have believed that the son was the origin of a muffler repair shop.

Robby

P.S. I'm so sorry folks. When it gets to the end of a long day without being out of the house (I've been up since 5 a.m.), sometimes I get a little kooky.

That's okay, Robby. It's been a long, dark day here, too. I haven't been out of the house for a month, so I'm way ahead kookier than you!

Mal

Here all the time I thought he was the one who made the first gold Phryigidaire.

Mal

I see we're on a roll.

Click HERE for answers to all your questions about Phrygia. There's a French section in there, Eloise.

Robby

"I am weary of the cottage, Oh take me out of here, To where there's noise and bustle, Where the girls are dancing gaily, where the lads are making merry!" From an old Russian Ballad. Me too. Its dark and raining, too cold to walk on the beach, so I stick another log on the fire and tune into Durant.

Thanks to everyone for all of the beautiful and interesting links!

"Tune into Durant"

I love that, Ellen!

"The ascendency of Phrygia in Asia Minor was ended with the rise of the new kingdom of Lydia. King Gyges established it with its capital at Sardis. Croesus (570-546 B.C.) inherited and enjoyed it. He expanded it by conquest to include nearly all of Asia Minor, and then surrendered it to Persia. By generous bribes to local politicians he brought one after another of the petty states that surrounded him into subjection to Lydia. He persuaded them that he was the darling of their gods.

"Croesus further distinguished himself by issuing gold and silver coins of admirable design, minted and guaranteed at their face value by the state. Although these were not the first official coins in history, much less the invention of coinage, nevertheless they set an example that stimulated trade throughout the Mediterranean world."

One nation bribing the citizens of another? Any of that going on these days?

Robby

Jack: What's this I hear about you being a hit and run guy? There are only two ways we can eliminate stereotypes from our baggage. One of the ways is self discovery. The other way is by someone like you counter punching. But don't counter punch and run. Stick around and make us aware. I personally don't ask the color of one's skin but I walk a fine line between neutral on religious people and critical on religion. I did not pick up on Fifi's comment. But you did. That makes you valuable to us. We also want Fifi to stay and to recognize that we are all vulnerable because past experience has not served to make us sensitive to everyone who is different from ourselves. We have made great strides in improving our relationships with others but we are not yet perfect.

Thanks Mal for links to Phrygian art. Surprisingly beautiful. Phyrigdaire, really. We are all tired silly after the long day i guess. I managed minding sick Anthony a couple of hours, a two mile walk and a nap today.

Robby, Thanks for the link in French. I really enjoyed reading that in my own language. It was interesting to read about the religion inspired by the goddess Cybèle (so beautiful.

"One nation bribing the citizens of another? Any of that going on these days?"

No. Nowadays it is called, foreign aid, military aid, economic aid or an aid of some kind. :--)

Jere

Any number of countries have experienced an influx of outsiders in recent years. Some of them have been changed sufficiently by the newcommers to warrant calling them a new civilization. Israel is a good example.

But the United States has been receiving waves of immigrants since its inception. My mother's folks came from Ireland in the 1830's. My father's folks came from Holland in the 1720's. They were the new kids on the block at that time. Since then we have absorbed more Irish, Sweeds, Germans, Poles, Italians, etc. One wave after another.We are a melting pot and we have probably had more experience adjusting to newcomers than any other nation. Some of it good. Some of it bad.

But inspite of all this change we are not a new civilization. Yes, we are different each day as more and more outsiders are added to the pot but to get a new civilzation we need four elements of change. Government, economics, social, and cultural elements must change as well. We talk about Sumeria, Akkadia, Babylon, Assyria, Hittite, Egypt, being separate civilizations. Their governments were different. Their gods were a mix but essentially different. Their cultural elements and achievements were different. Not so in the United States. The government is the same no matter how many others join us. Our economic orientation is the same no matter the mix of peoples. We are a nation of a thousand cultures all of which go to make up the face of America. And less and less are we alone in this characteristic. Other countries are adopting our elements of civilization.

Justin follows Durant's guidelines:--"We are not a new civilization. To get a new civilzation we need four elements of change. Government, economics, social, and cultural elements must change as well. Not so in the United States. The government is the same no matter how many others join us. Our economic orientation is the same no matter the mix of peoples. We are a nation of a thousand cultures."

Food for thought. Rather than being a melting pot, we have at times been called a salad bowl - many cultures, as Justin says, but not necessarily mixing.

Robby

This NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE of last year tells of archaeologists in Turkey trying to find what it meant in antiquity to be "rich as King Croesus."

Robby

Justin you are right about the United States. We are not homoginized, still we are a united peoples through the institutions you talk about. Perhaps that is what will hold back the One World government idea from fruition for many hundreds of years. Unless there is a way to globalize more than just the economy it will take a long long time. faithr

This NEW YORK TIMES ARTICLE of last year tells of archaeologists in Turkey trying to find what it meant in antiquity to be "rich as King Croesus."

Robby

Here is a FASCINATING STORY of the encounter between the Lydian King Croesus, reckoned as one of the richest men in the world, and Solon, the wise Athenian.

Robby

Kevxu: Please don't leave. I did wonder about Fifi's 'facts' but decided to let it slide. On the other hand, I left the Terrorism forum in the Politics folder because people were blaming all the earth's ills on the Jews. How many times can you offer correct information?

There was an interesting comment about one country bribing another. Winston Churchill bribed General Franco of Spain to stay out of the war. I can't remember the amount anymore, $40 million jumps into my mind.

Sometimes a movement of people is caused by a country's leader. Stalin moved the Tatars because they were cooperating with the Germans. They had lived in the Crimea and were moved east. Like in a couple of days a whole population was transported out of their homeland. In recent years some of them have moved back.

As for the migration of peoples from less affluent countries to the U.S. and Canada, when have people not moved. Who of us other than native Americans didn't have ancestors who came from somewhere else. I believe the mixing of peoples results in a renaissance of culture some years later. If the mixing is ongoing as it is in North America the rich cultural achievements are ongoing.

On reflecting on all those various warrior civilizations in the past, I must say I am glad there are fewer of them now and we don't need to worry at every turn that our civilization will be overrun and our scalps scalped. I was particulary appaled at the Assyrians impaling women who had miscarried.

Sharon; I too was appalled at impaling women who miscarried . I have three daughters and four grand daughters so I would not like that practice at all.

One must wonder at the source of story about Churchill paying Franco 40 miilion to stay out of the War. Churchill did not have 40 million to pay anyone. Thats why Lend Lease came about. Also Franco had just concluded a Civil War and his country was a shambles. He was in power but with few assets to spend on a war. It's true the Germans helped him win but he was in no position to help them. And Churchill was in no position to pay him a dime. Franco's best shot at the time was to sit this one out.

Robby: You are right about mixing. The first generation of new immigrants always form a little ghetto to help each other and to be nostalgic about the "old country". But the second and third generations tend to mix quite well, I think. I'll bet that's the way it was in Babylonia and Assyria. The captives all stayed together if they survived.

I am here lurking. I am back home as spraying cancelled 2 days in a row. I may have to vacate at 4.45am tomorrow to leave the spray zone. I am enjoying the posts but too tired to post myself. Grandson teething the whole house got little sleep. That kid has lungs like you would not believe!

Carolyn

This discussion took me back to my art history classes at UCLA and a couple of books my father had on the subject. Now H.B. Cotterill in A HISTORY OF ART, introduction in 1922 has this assyrian period in the 500 and 600 bc period. I see that it's considered to be much earlier here.

I wondered since this is partly oriental civilization why we aren't in the orient. . . it's history goes back to 4000 BC. . . or at least 2500 since I know that the potters wheel existed then and that must have been told to us by means of their graphic art.

In the ancient world history was shown graphically and architecturally because that was the best way to communicate with an illiterate (reading and writing as we know it) society.

When I was a child I became fascinated by the beautiful gardens of babylon and their cuneiform writing. Now there were two periods one before and one after the assyrians...according to Cotterill both full of artistic values. The assyrian values, according to this source were involved with war, the accumulation of territory and power and there is very little except for the lion gate and the bas reliefs in art for us to see at that time although their architecture gave us a corbled arch, pointed at the top and steping down and out one block at a time (if I remember).

Their statues of people seem to be related to what my old teacher called the "inherent abstract", when we were discussing Egypt in the 2500BC first kingdom stage. that is no particular characteristics but a generic image to represent all people of a given sort. Is there a connection between Assyrian and Egyptian sculpture? In looking at some of the illustrations in the Cotterill book I seemed to see one.

This is fun for me. It's bringing me back to things I thought I had forgotten for good, part of that old education my parents wanted me to have. . . I like fiction, mysteries etc, but it appears that I was educated in other things too, in spite of all that. Now I'm more willing to pursue history but only in that it relates to art. I find individual military sorties boring and frustrating, even as now war disgusts me and that is how most of my history classes were oriented. names and dates and battles and and and ad-nauseoum.

got very long here, but it's a long subject.

sorrrryyyyy, Claire

I too would like to plead, "DON'T hit the road, JACK!" Sit here a while, under the palms with us, set aside the "Gawd orfull" coffee they serve in these parts, while we read and discuss the past, and Durant relates for us the long gone centuries of our civilization's beginnings.

I am renewing memories of my earlier reading of SOC, and I am being enlightened by the good analysing skills of all who post here. What a marvelous group you are. I lurk and learn, and thank you all for your input.-- Trevor

Say it ain't so, Jack

HOWZAT (is my name and lurking is my game)

Thanks so much for that link on Herodotos story. I found myself back in highschool, sweating with the translation Greek to French, of that long tale and wondering how important people wasted their times in idle conversation. Now of course I see it in a different light. Midas, Croesus, all those figures of legends take another proportion. Would Midas father have a 'link' to the gorgian knot story? Bubble

Claire:--"I wondered since this is partly oriental civilization why we aren't in the orient."

It's my understanding that we are. There is the Near East and the Far East. We are currently in the Near East, will move gradually in that direction through India, and then end up in the Far East (China and Japan.)

HOWZAT (is my name and lurking is my game). That may be a great game but I suggest that "participating" is even greater FUN!

Robby

As can be seen by the new GREEN quotes above, we move -- along with Durant -- to the Semitic peoples. In this 21st century, most of us are acquainted with the constant use by almost everyone of the terms "semitic" and "anti-semitic." But do we know what the terms mean? Let us listen to Durant.

"The Near East was divided by mountains and deserts into localities. The migrations and imperial deportations of vast communities so mingled stocks and speech that a certain homogeneity of culture accompanied the heterogeneity of blood.

"By 'Indo-European,' then, we shall mean predominantly Indo-European. By Semitic, we shall mean predominantly Semitic. No strain was unmixed. No culture was left uninfluenced by its neighbors or its enemies. We are to vision the vast area as a scene of ethnic diversity and flux -- in which now the Indo-European, now the Semitic -- stock for a time prevailed, but only to take on the general cultural character of the whole.

"Hammurabi and Darius I were separated by differences of blood and religion, and by almost as many centuries as those that divide us from Christ. Nevertheless, when we examine the two great kings we perceive that they are essentially and profoundly akin."

Robby

"Out of that arid region, where the 'man-plant' grows so vigorously and hardly any other plant will grow at all, came, in a succession of migrations, wave after wave of sturdy, reckless stoics no longer supportable by desert and oases, and bound to conquer for themselves a place in the shade.
"Those who remained behind created the civilization of Arabia and the Bedouin -- the patriarchal family, the stern morality of obedience, the fatalism of a hard environment, and the ignorant courage to kill their own daughters as offerings to the gods.

"Nevertheless, they did not take religion very much to heart until Mohammed came, and they neglected the arts and refinements of life as effeminate devices for degenerate men."

So we are seeing here the "beginnings" of the Semitic peoples.

Robby

I think most of us realize that these phrases have little meaning in today's Middle East, because both combatants are semites. But something I am interested in is even after centuries after the diaspora, Jews remain a self identified group. I don't know of any other instance (Correct me, Robby, if Durant mentions one) of a group reassembling after many years of dispersion, resurecting a language essentially ceremonial into every day speech and an ancient religion into a current one.

Obviously there has been much intermingling of blood; our friend, who was born in Hungary and now teaches in Israel and Puerto Rico, tells of meeting a rabbi in a synagogue in Brazil. He said "My name is Aaron Cohen" and he "was black as the ace of spades!" She was much surprised that an ancient Jewish name persisted in a culture entirely alien to her, a European Jew.

Does anyone have a non-theological explanation for this phenomenon of reassembly? Does Durant have anything to say that would give us a clue?

I had some trouble finding information about Darius I. The name of Darius Milhaud, late 19th and 20th century French composer, kept coming up, along with numerous other Dariuses (Darii?). This is a bit of what I found. You will see the similarity between Darius I and Hammurabi.

"Darius governed the world wisely, and, for the most part, peacefully. He established post-roads everywhere, and a postal service. He had officers of justice in every land, a police force, and a regular system of taxation. He was also a great builder, the founder of the Persian capital, Persepolis; and his tomb near Persepolis is, perhaps, the most impressive remaining monument of Persian civilization."

It certainly does seem a time of diversity and flux. Durant and other historians apparently have had great trouble finding out where people, including the Phoenicians, came from. The civilizations we've read about before seemed fairly clear cut, and their origins could be traced. I feel as if I've somehow been transported back to the time of very early human beings and their wanderings for food and shelter so they could survive.

Mal

SWN, which "both combatants" do you mean?

Mal

SWN, you ask: "Does anyone have a non-theological explanation for this phenomenon of reassembly? Does Durant have anything to say that would give us a clue?"

We may learn a bit more about that when we enter Judea.

Robby

We are on a topic where it is important that we choose our words carefully. If not, misunderstandings among us may arise.

I believe that clicking onto LANGUAGE AND MEANINGS of terms related to "semitic" may be helpful before we move forward. I would urge that we all use this Link.

Robby

When I typed in Darius of Persia into my search, several hundred items came up, one of which follows. The history of Darius I is often convoluted (in both Western and Eastern sources), but if one has the time and interest it is certainly interesting. Although in contemporary times, the region we have come to know as Persia/Iran, has continued to be fraught with conflict (just as in the ancient period), there is also a strong presence of "those who came before." One cannot stand on the site of ancient Persepolis without "feeling" the busyness of the Court and its couriers, looking over one's shoulder to see if the Chamberlain is watching with a fierce eye, and hearing the distant sound of the rumbling chariots as they are driven at reckless speed across the vast plain. Especially at dusk, when the sun and colors of the landscape are fading, the ancient vibrant community feels so close.

http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?z=1&pg=2&ti=761564512&cid=2#p2

MAHLIA, my computer freezes every time I access the site you posted. I have no idea why.

Dumb me! I typed in Darius I, not Darius of Persia. Thanks for giving me the clue. I do hope you'll come in often, since I suspect your knowledge could be most helpful to us.

Mal

Below is a link to a page about Phoenician ships. Scroll down and you'll see how they were constructed.
Phoenician Ships

Robby,

I read your link and come to the conclusion that it will be very difficult to be politically corrrect, and accurate in the use of terms in this area.

I understand that you are trying to warn us to be very careful using emotionally laden words carelessly, BUT, what is poor stupid me going to do to express himself accurately when the words are so "bias laden"?

Muslim is a religious term,Palestinian is a political or geographical term depending on intent. How is one to know what is meant by Zionist, the Territories, etc.?

Jere

"Who, now were those Phoenicians who have so often been spoken of in thse pages, whose ships sailed every sea, whose merchants bargained in every port? The historian is abashed before any question of origins. He must confess that he knows next to nothing about either the early or the late history of this ubiquitous, yet elusive people.

"We do not know whence they came, nor when. We are not certain that they were Semites. As to the date of teir arrival on the Mediteranean coast, we cannot contradict the statement of the scholars of Tyre, who told Herodotus that their ancestors had come from the Persian Gulf, and had founded the city in what we should call the twenty-eighth century before Christ."

Robby

Jere:--Words like that (if we use them at all) will occur more when we enter Judea. I'm sure that all of us here will continue to be considerate of all people, regardless of their origins.

Robby

Mal, the Phoenician Ships link was just magnificiant! The Phoenicians, called the Sidonians in the Old Testament and the most notable traders and sailers of the ancient world, don't seem to get too much attention from Durant. As well as developing the most advanced ships, they utilized and spread that all important phonetic alphabet that we use to this very day to keep their books and records while they were on the move. I have always felt that the phonetic alphabet was just one of the most important developments ever achieved.

The Phoenicians were one of the first people to sail out on the open ocean, down the western coast of Africa, always looking to trade, to buy and sell. The North Star was known in the ancient world as the "Phoenician Star" and anyone who drove a hard bargain was called a "Phoenician". Their development of a maritime culture was to prove that whomever controlled the sea, controlled just about everything.

I have always felt that there are two kinds of people in the world. Egyptians and Phoenicians.

Below is an image which shows the evolution of Phoenician into Latin/Westernn scripts and Arabic/Eastern scripts.
Evolution of Phoenician alphabet

As Ellen said, Mal's link to Phoenician Ships was magnificent! Here is another LINK to give you additional information about this progressive civilization.

Robby

A word to the wise. If you are either a participant or a lurker and are NOT using these Links, you are cheating yourself!! This is what helps this forum to give you information that is not in Durant's book because we have learned so much since. Please click onto EXCERPTS to read comments from all different sources about the Phoenicians.
Robby

"At strategic points along the Mediterranean they established garrisons that grew in time into populous colonies or cities -- at Cadiz, Carthage and Marseille, in Malta, Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica, even in distant England. They occupied Cyprus, Melos and Rhodes. They took the arts and sciences of Egypt, Crete and the Near East and spread them in Greece, Africa, Italy and Spain. They bound together the East and the West in a commercial and cultural web.
"They began to redeem Europe from barbarism."
Robby

I always thought that the Phoenicians were a PART of the Sea Peoples but now I am in doubt about that because one of the links states that the Sea Peoples came BEFORE the Phoenicians. Can anyone help me answer the question of just who the Sea Peoples were?

Both Arabs and Jews claim descent from Abraham. What else are they going to be but distant cousins? And this group of people is generally referred to as semitic.

As for being politically correct, this is really "evil to him who evil thinks." We speak the way we have learned, and some "pejorative" terms are not the least bit intuitive. Someone told me a few years ago the work "Oriental" was insulting. Why? European isn't, the last time I heard. Martin Luther King used the term "Negro" all the time. Why has that arbitrarily become incorrect? If people look for insults where none is intended we might just as well give up trying to discuss anything.

There is such a thing as not considering a particular word insulting, yet refraining from it because it offends the other person.

Robby

The term "negro" was first used by French colonists in the Southern US to designate "les nègres", in other words people of the 'negroïde' race. English people pronounced it "negro" as both words sound almost exactly the same. "Negro" is not insulting per se, it just became discriminatory and even Blacks have almost stopped using it. So why not just drop the word altogether and adopt the new one if it is more pleasant?

I hate too this mention of 'white' or 'black' 'caucasian' 'oriental' in the news about a crime having been committed. Why mention the color at all? It just perpetuates the hatred. People are people.

Mal - The link about ships was fascinating. Thank you.

MAL - the link I posted about Darius was from Encarta. Perhaps if you just typed Encarta.com and then searched for info. about Darius it would work.

ELLEN - my husband, who is Egyptian, would certainly applaud your appreciation of the world's population being split between Egyptians and Phoenicians. We have good friends from Latakia, who insist that they are Phoenicians and NOT Syrians.

SWW - did you ask the person who mentioned the word "Oriental" to you WHY it was insulting? From my own multicultural background, I tend to think of the British use of the word, meaning the region which we in the West (particularly the USA) now consider the Middle East, whereas "the Far East" leads me think of Asia (China, Japan, etc.)

JERE - I tend to think of Zionist/Zionism as a political description, remembering that not all Zionists were/are Jews. It may be as confusing as realizing that many Palestinians are NOT Arabs or Muslims, but rather Christians from diverse ethnic backgrounds. And that some Arabs (especially those from ancestral heritages in Southern Iraq) are Jews.

ELOISE - in some regions it might make sense to eliminate the word Negro completely, but not in the USA. Members of the older Black generation commonly use the word, rather than Black or Afro-American, and one of our oldest and most distinguished educational organizations includes the name in its title: The United Negro College Fund. American family historicans often use the word, especially in local history, and it remains an identifier (coupled with the prefix "non") to describe the large Ethiopian community in the USA.

ROBBY - I was certainly glad to see that earlier someone (was it KEVU?)corrected the misperception that none of the Hispanic immigrants to the USA were white. The clarification was right-on-target, since there are indeed so many light complexioned Hispanic/Latinos (I use the words interchangeably)of European descent in the country. I have recently begun working as a volunteer with a Latino organization in the metropolitan Washington DC area and the membership is certainly diverse, ranging from the Central American indigenous people to the Eastern and West European Spanish-speaking familes from Bolivia and Argentina.

"Byblos thought itself the oldest of all cities. The god El had founded it at the beginning of time, and to the end of his history it remained the religious capital of Phoenicia. Because papyrus was one of the principal articles in its trade, the Greeks took the name of the city as their word for book -- biblos -- and from their word for book named our Bible -- ta biblia.

Some fifty miles to the south, also on the coast, lay Sidon. Originally a fortress, it grew rapidly into a village, a town, a prosperous city. It contributed the best ships to Xerxes' fleet. When later the Persians besieged and captured it, its proud leaders deliberately burned it to the ground -- forty thousand inhabitants perishing in the conflagration."

We have in earlier posts commented upon the ancient peoples having little or no respect for individual life. Can we imagine destroying one of our cities to prevent the enemy from taking it and, in the process, killing 40,000 of our own people?

Robby

Backing up a little bit, here is a recent NEWSPAPER ARTICLE about trying to locate Midas' tomb.

Robby

And another ARTICLE printed just two weeks ago about locating a statuette connected with Midas.

Robby

I have always wondered what "motley " meant. Now I know it means Miscellaneous.

"The Hittites mingled with the ancient Hebrews enough to give them their sharply acquiline nose, so that this Hebraic feature must now be considered strictly "Aryan". (Durant p.287). The Hittites spoke an Indo-European language and in that sense were Aryan. I suppose a nose can be Aryan. I think Hitler thought it non-Aryan. This is an interesting twist on the relevance of physical features in language issues.

The Phoenicians for commercial reasons were instrumental in the development of an alphabet and writing on paper. Clay tablets must have been very heavy to carry on shipboard. So I can understand them changing to paper after their exposure to it in Egyptian ports. Application of the Egyptian alphabet to paper then clearly spelled the end of clay tablets in commerce. Durant seems to think there is some chance that the Cretans gave the alphabet to the Phoenicians and to the Greeks. He thinks there is a greater chance however, that the Phoenicians took the alphabet where they took papyrus. This development of the alphabet and its disemination is perhaps the greatest advance to come out of the Near East. It is perhaps the most significant part of our Oriental heritage.

The Phoenicians had some horrifying religious practices. They burned their daughters. I recently read Salammbo by Flaubert, a story of a seige of Carthage in which hundreds of infants were burned to relieve the seige. Flammarion is the publisher.

Justin says:--"The period is 1000 years after the Phoenicians but we'll be there some time soon."

I know some of the participants and lurkers tell us we move rapidly, but -- gee, Justin!

Robby

JACK: My daughter-in-law is from Columbia. She is white. When I needed an "Au-Pair" (sp?) for my then young sons, I accepted students from San Mateo Junior College in CA. The three - five young male students were from South and Central America. Some "white;" some, "beige." The language and numbers used by Arabs has nothing to do with Arameic, Ancient Egypt, etc. I was a tourist in Egypt in 1983. I had to write down the numbers to be able to pay for fees, purchases, etc. They were/are quite different from that which we call "Arabic Numerials" today. Arameic (sp?) is a virtually "lost language." The Hebrew Torah was translated from Arameic to Hebrew some time after given to Moses at Mount Saini in circa 1300 bce. Neither language uses vowels.

Thank you, Carla, for that information regarding language and numbers. As we move into "Judea," your experience and facts in this area will be appreciated.

Robby

Just out of curiosity, where did all this talk in the world about race come from anyway? I was astonished yesterday when I was doing a search to find an article about "the Nordic race". What?

I'll tell you something I once said in another discussion. When I'm given some sort of application to fill out and there's a question about what race I am, I always write in HUMAN.

Mal

Phoenicians were the major merchants of their time, developing on the Mediterranean Sea between Egyptian and Mesopotamian civilizations. They absorbed influences from both, receiving cuneiform from Mesopotamia in the west, and Egyptian hiroglyphics and scripts from the south. It is probable that they also had knowledge of Cretan pictographs. They had access to a wide range of visible languages in their travels and trading and seemed to have started experimenting with other possibilities.

Evidence of a number of Phoenician experiments with a writing system have been unearthed. There seems to be a protoalphabet that produced the Phoenician alphabet and also evolved into Hebrew and Arabic alphabets elswhere in the region. The alphabet became the people's writing in contrast to the theocratic writing of the temple priests of Mesopotamia and Egypt. The priests and scribes lost their monopoly on knowledge which was power and secular leaders (with the military) became leaders.

Writing from left to right, then right to left is called Boustrophedon or "as the ox plows".

I am not a linguist or optical scientist in this field but it seems to me that "as the ox plows" is a rational way of reading. When one comes to the end of a line, the eye is all ready to continue right there. In English, the eye has to jump all the way back to the left.

Robby

Justin - "This development of the alphabet and its discemination is perhaps the greatest advance to come out of the Near East. It is perhaps the most significant part of our Oriental heritage."

And with papyrus it was now possible to spread knowledge wherever writing on papyrus was disceminated. It was more practical and cheaper to carry because writing on it was less time consuming than on clay tablets. I think that papyrus would be one of the most significant advancement of civilization.

Mal - I still have to have to fill application forms now and then and in the space provided for 'Profession' I like to write 'Alive' because 'Retired' for the Human Resources department would just mean 'old'.

Speaking of the 'Nordic Race' do you notice that civilizations in S of C is slowly moving northward. Laval Uni. Prof. De Connink once mentioned that nordic people could more easily overtake southern nations because they were sturdier, could endure cold temperatures, could better overcome difficult terrain and were more resistant to privations as more southern nations who enjoyed kinder climate abundant food and lighter clothing.

Thanks everybody for your input. Highly interesting posts.

Perhaps Mal this thing with race is like the Philosophers trying to name all the elements in the world and came up with earth,air,fire,water...naming people they came up with black white red and yellow ...yet Neither system of naming "things" contains any objective truth. Faith

"Man was born into barbarism when killing his fellow man was a normal condition of existence. He became endowed with a conscience. And he has now reached the day when violence toward another human being must become as abhorrent as eating another's flesh."

Martin Luther King, Jr. January 15, 1929 - April 4, 1968
Nobel Prize acceptance speech, Stockholm, Sweden, December 11, 1964.

The difference in time between Phoenicia and Carthage is not 1000 years as I said. Carthage was a colony of Phoenicia. Early Carthage was Phoenician. Later, during the Punic Wars Carthage was independently powerful. These civilizations actually overlap as did so many other ancient settlements. We'll get to Carthage when we get there, I guess.

Eloise: Did Paper come from Egypt or China? For some unknown reason, I had always thought paper came to us from China. I guess we will learn about that later in volume one.

The Moses stories have come to us from Sargon, Hammurabi, and the wizards of Babylonia who were able to part the waters. The festival of Syrian Astarte celebrated at Hieropolis brings us a foreshadowing of New Testament events. Durant, discussing the festival on page 297 says," Then, in the dark of the night ,the priests brought a mystic illumination to the scene,opened the tomb of the young god, and announced triumphantly, that the Lord had risen from the dead." The priests then promised the worshipers that they too would some day rise from the grave.

Later on the page, Durant says,"Similar customs varying only in name and detail were practiced by the Semitic tribes south of Syria . It was forbidden the Jews to make their children pass through the fire, but occasionally they did it none the less. Abraham about to sacrifice Isaac was but resorting to an ancient rite in attempting to propitiate the gods with human blood.

Aramaic was clearly the common language of the period. I am aware that the book of Ezra was originally in Aramaic, so too for Daniel. Perhaps Deuteronomy as well and certainly Kings and all that followed. It is an interesting thing about Moses on Sinai getting the tablets in Exodus 20, when he gets the same ten at Horeb in Deuteronomy 5 and then there are those written by the finger of God in Exodus 31 with copies engraved by Moses in 34. And perhaps, it all flowed out of Hammurabi and his experience with God.

As we prepare to examine Judea, we need to be aware of the possibility of confusion. For example:--
1 - There is the Judea of ancient times. - There is the Judea at the approximate time of the beginning of Christianity. - There is the Israel of today.
2 - There is the danger inherent in Links. Some of the information will be given by scholars who have studied this subject extensively. - Some of the information will be given by people who give their personal views as fact. - Some of the information will be given by religious groups who are presenting, in effect, propaganda.
3 - There is the strong possibility of our being caught up in what Eloise rightly has described as "passion."
1 - Let us follow Durant very closely. In this Volume (Oriental Heritage) he speaks only of Ancient Judea. The temptation may be to cross over to the Judea of thousands of years later. At times relevant comparisons may be made (ancient with later), but such crossovers can easily, without our realizing it, move us into an entirely different subject. This "new" subject is so important that Durant made an entire Volume of it. His second volume is "The Life of Greece" and the third volume is "Caesar and Christ." Assuming that you folks here want to (at a much later date) discuss the Judea at the time of Christ and assuming you were to find a Discussion Leader, that would be the appropriate time to discuss the "later" Judea. For those who have the book, there may also be the temptation to thumb ahead in the pages and comment on something the rest of us have not yet read or known from the quotes above.
2 - Please be very careful as you give us Links! Speaking for myself, if I lead you to a Link presented by a religious organization, I will warn you in advance. This does NOT necessarily mean the the information is false. It means we have to do some thinking for ourselves. I will try not to Link you to people who have "their own personal ax to grind."
3 - As to "passion," this forum has never been against such an emotion. It has its place. I assume we are all passionate about the entire "Story of Civilization" or we would not be here. Let us, however, be careful of the other person's feelings.
Finally, we all know about proselytizing. It will NOT be tolerated in this Discussion Group.
Having said all that, I am looking forward to what I believe will be one of the most scintillating and enlightening sub-topics of this forum.
Lurkers, please come forward! We need everyone!

Robby

"The numerically and geographically insignificant Jews, who gave to the world one of its greatest literatures, two of its most influential religions, and so many of its profoundest men."

- - - Will Durant

Mal - Post #466. "Man was born into barbarism when killing his fellow man was a normal condition of existence...." M.L.King

I agree with this. So far Durant does not reveal his own opinion on this matter. I agree that as a Historian he tries to be as unbiased as he can, as he describes conflicts, war and barbarism at length.

Justin - I don't know where paper originated. I also think China must have because their civilization is so much older than the Western one is. I found Durant's book on India and China here in Montreal, but it is in French. I prefer reading in the original version. If China invented paper, they were late in spreading writing to the West. I would guess that the alphabet is an even more important element of development because China's rich literature did not spread until much later because of their impractical alphabet.

Durant starts us off:--

"Palestine -- one hundred and fifty miles from Dan on the north to Beersheba on the south, twenty-five to eighty miles from the Philistines on the west to the Syrians, Aramaeans, Ammonites, Moabites and Edomites on the east. One would not expect so tiny a territory to leave behind it an influence greater than that of Babylonia, Assyria or Persia, perhaps greater even than that of Egypt or Greece.

"But it was the fortune and misfortune of Palestine that it lay midway betwen the capitals of the Nile and those of the Tigris and Euphrates. This circumstance brought trade to Judea, and it brought war. Time and again the harassed Hebrews were compelled to take sides in the struggle of the empires, to pay tribute or be overrun.

"Behind the Bible, behind the plaintive cries of the psalmists and the prophets for help from the sky, lay this imperiled place of the Jews between the upper and nether millstones of Mesopotamia and Egypt."

Durant starts us off by calling our attention to a most important fact about Judea -- its geography.

Robby

This Link leads you to various DEFINITIONS which I feel sure will be helpful as you move along. I would suggest you print them out (takes 9 pages). It also includes a good map. Aside from being helpful, the definitions are enlightening.

Robby

ELOISE, we are celebrating the birthday of Martin Luther King today in the United States, and that is why I posted the quote by him. It is the second part of his quote about violence which is important, in my opinion. Barbarism existed from the time of early humans. It, unfortunately, exists now. As for Durant's opinion about it, it seems to me that he makes it quite clear that barbarism existed in very early times and persisted.

Sea Bubble and Safta, who both live in Israel, are more qualified than I to talk about this, but, as I understand it early Hebrews were nomadic tribes. As a religion, Judaism is very old. I believe, according to the Jewish calendar this is the year 5751. Someone will correct me if I am wrong. The Jewish year is shorter than the one of the calendar we use, so it takes some figuring to know exactly how the two relate.

I read that it is considered possible that Judaism sprang from Zoroastrianism, a religion practiced in Ancient Persia. Zoroaster abolished all but one god - Ahura Mazda.

At any rate, when the Jews returned to Palestine, it was no longer the "land of milk and honey" of the past. Rather, it was "barren wastes and timid oases", according to Durant. This led me to think about climatic changes and what they do to civilizations. It appears to some that we are going through worldwide climatic changes now. What will this do to our civilizations?

Mal

Small precisions.

JOPPA - the sea port for Jerusalem would be Jaffa, today's Yaffo. This is totally different from Haifa situated further to the North. Jaffa is adjacent to Tel Aviv.

EDOM - Esau would have received his name when he was circumcised, on the eighth day after his birth. At the time it could not have been known he would sell his birthright. He was thus named because he was red haired.

Bubble

My appreciation to those here who are Jewish or have specific knowledge of Jewish language or culture.

Robby

I am not smart enough to participate. Not all of us are multi-talented. Some of us just audit when we are out of our depth; I lurk and learn.

HOWZAT

HOWZAT:

No one has to be "smart" to participate in this discussion. Anybody who knows how to use a Search Engine like Google has the same information in his or her computer that Robby, everybody else and I do. If you have an opinion about history or anything else, gather up your courage and post!

Mal

HOWZAT, you scare me!! If I ever thought that I was the Discussion Leader of a forum that was composed only of people who are "smart and multi-talented," I would drop out IMMEDIATELY!! Unless I have misunderstood the atmosphere here, there is a warm fuzzy feeling within this group. It is here because we recognize and respect each other as "mere people" -- people who want to "learn" as you do but also throw in a question now and then.

I have come to the conclusion that it is the QUESTIONS that keep this forum going, not necessarily the answers. We have always considered this forum a "mystery story" where we are trying to find the answers.

So please ASK something now and then the way a detective would, back off and lurk, then come in and ASK something more, etc. Questions are wonderful things. You don't have to know a single thing to ask a question.

Robby

P.S. Have you noticed how often I ask questions but rarely answer any?

Comparing civilizations to the present, I found an article by the author of Guns, Germs and Steel that is current, yet speaks of environment determining people's fates and some civilized things that we can do to help.

Why We Must Feed the Hands That Could Bite Us(Washington Post)

Linda Lurker

Thank you "Linda Lurker" (I love that moniker but don't lurk too much) for your Link to a great article. It makes a lot of sense.

Robby

Durant continues:--"The climatic history of the land tells us again how precarious a thing civilization is, and how its great enemies -- barbarism and desiccation -- are always waiting to destroy it. Once Palestine was 'a land flowing with milk and honey,' as many a passage in the Pentateuch describes it. Josephus, in the first century after Christ, still speaks of it as 'moist enough for agriculture, and very beautiful. They have abundance of trees, and are full of autumn fruits both wild and cultivated. They are not naturally watered by many rivers, but derive their chief moisture from rain, of which they have no want.'

"In ancient days, the spring rains that fed the land were stored in cisterns or brought back to the surface by a multitude of wells, and distributed over the country by a network of canals. This was the physical basis of Jewish civilization."

I often wondered about that "milk and honey" bit knowing that Palestine was dry land and now realize that it was not dry in ancient times.

Robby

JUSTTIN - here's some information for you (and others) about the Origins of Paper.

http://www.hqpapermaker.com/paper.htm

MAL - I'd like to know the reference for the comment about Judaism evolving from Zoroastrianism. I've never come across that theory.

Mahlia:

I found that on a search through Google for the origins of Judaism. I didn't save the URL, so can't tell you where the page is located.

Mal

What a varied and fascinating group we have here! So much talent, so much enthusiasm, so much scholarship! Thank you, Robby, for an appropriate directive that we should not confuse the area we are discussing (is it appropriate to call it Palestine?) with either the country of Jesus's time or the Israel of the present. That will be a hard pitfall to avoid.n I think it is appropriate to ask at what point the climate of the region changed, because that would have an enormous impact on any civilization.

Any comments regarding the climate and its effect on Judea? Or, for that matter, other examples around the world of how change in climate affected various civilizations?

Robby

Climate, Culture and Catastrophe in the Ancient World

Mal:--That is an absolutely MAGNIFICENT link!!! It shows how the earth was through Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Egypt, and all the other civilizations we studied. I urge everyone to check out the Link and stay a while to examine the details.
I especially like the way he opened it:--"In the beginning, the earth in a fitful sleep, (100000 BC) , stirring in a night sweat every five thousand years."What a beautiful literary analogy!!

Robby

Oh Robby I agree that this is a perfectly wonderful find by our "searcher". Mal your find is outstanding. I find lots of sites but sometimes don't know exactly what I want to find. I am so glad we have you. I spent a little while at Climate site and will go back again. My folder on this discussion is so full of links now I have reading material for years to come if they leave the sites up. I have often wondered why we dont get more "weather reports" in history as it seems that would have a major effect on any culture. frp

Robby: In reference to the previous posts about job applications that Mal,Eloise and Faith mentioned, I remember seeing a job application in which an elderly female applicant not only put "human" in the blank space for race, but put "twice a week" in the blank space for sex.

Durant's comments about Joshua's admonition to his followers concerning the 2nd law of civilization, "The superior killer survives," is still being followed by the Jewish and Palestinian combatants on both sides.

The suffering the Jews endured throughout history was caused by their quiet acquiescence and acceptance of the slavery and hardships inflicted by other stronger nations with military might.

The silent acceptance of this hostile subversion of the Jews by nearly every other nation almost resulted in the total extinction of the Jews in this century, and caused them to have the mentality they have to-day of primarily protecting their own people.

The "Survival of the Fittest" mentality, quoted by Darwin as one of the paths of animal and human evolution, has always occurred throughout history and has again come into play in this century.

This caused WW2, the war in Vietnam, Korea the Gulf War, and the present war in Afghanistan, and was responslble for all the destruction and loss of American life on 9/11/01, and is causing the escalating situation between Israel and Palestine to-day.

This demonstrateds the valuable wisdom of President Theodore Roosevelt's sage advice while speaking about the proper methods we should use in dealing with the jealousy and threat from other nations, "Speak softly and carry a big stick".

Pat

"The soil, so nourished, produced barley, wheat and corn, the vine throve on it, and trees bore olives, figs, dates or other fruits on every slope. When war came and devastated these artificially fertile fields, or when some conqueror exiled to distant regions the families that had cared for them, the desert crept in eagerly, and in a few years undid the work of generations.

"We cannot judge the fruitfulness of ancient Palestine from the barren wastes and timid oases that confronted the brave Jews who in our own time returned to their old home after eighteen centuries of exile, dispersion and suffering."

Robby

Patrick, you say:--"'The superior killer survives,' is still being followed by the Jewish and Palestinian combatants on both sides. The silent acceptance of this hostile subversion of the Jews caused them to have the mentality they have to-day of primarily protecting their own people."

It is not for us in this forum to determine who is killing whom and for what reason or what particular "mentality" a current group of people have. That is a political comment which perhaps has its place in one of the political discussion groups in Senior Net. In this forum, we concentrate on Ancient Judea as explained by Durant. Not only do we not address individual personalities in this forum, we attempt not to address the personalities and/or behaviors of current day groups of people.

Robby

Mal I also thank you for providing us with such interesting links. We could spend hours in them.

Mahlia; Thank you for your link on paper. While doing the research for a masters thesis on Medieval architecture I requested some funding documents from the libraians in the ancient library at Canterbury in England.They brought to my desk charters issued by Henry ll in the 12th century. These charters were printed on animal skins and well hung with seals. I wondered at the time why paper was not used. Your link finally answered that question. Paper did not arrive in Europe until the 12th century.

Comments on Judea, anyone?

The climate link is truly outstanding. I had no idea Judea could have been anything other than desert in the second millenium BCE. I thought it was strange that all these civilizations we have been studying were nourished by sand dunes. When the cilvilizations died out Durant often said they were covered by sand thereby reinforcing the thought. But from the climate link I judge the area to be gren and lush. I thought that lower Mesopotamia with its swamp was an exception. But now it all makes sense to me. It was a land of milk and honey. Abram coming from Ur was a sheep herder or goat herder so he needed forage. I wonder when it all changed.

Quiet acquiesence was not a characteristic of the Jews throughout history. I am thinking of Jehrico, the conquest of Canaan, Masada, the resistance to Titus, etc. This not a passive people. The Babylonian captivity was the result of one of one hell of a fight.

Robby - It is no wonder that Judea is a most important site of ancient history. It sits on a land bridge smack between the Near Eastern and Western nations. Cultures, languages, spirituality, power struggles all come together to clash on a short, narrow desert strip of land. Furthermore, it also has escellent access to the Mediterranean sea. A very desirable asset. It has the ideal climatatic conditions between the 30th and 40th parallel and warriors there don't have to suffer Canadian winters in order to enjoy warring to their heart's content.

I am waiting for you to post more on Judea, because I don't know enough about it yet. I printed your link and your map. What does Durant say?

Justin - What an experience it must have been to actually touch such ancient documents. It gives me goose bumps just to think about it... Eloïse

"Five Neanderthal skeletons were recently discovered in a cave near Haifa. It appears likely that the Mousterian culture which flourished in Europe about 40,000 B.C. extended to Palestine. At Jericho neolithic floors and hearths have been exhumed that carry back the history of the region down to a Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.), in which the towns of Palestine and Syria had accumulated such wealth as to invite conquest by Egypt.
"In the fifteenth century before Christ, Jericho was a well-walled city, ruled by kings acknowledging the suzerainty of Egypt. The tombs of these kings, escavated by the Garstang Expedition, contained hundreds of vases, funerary offerings, and other objects indicating a settled life at Jericho in the time of the Hyksos dominaton, and a fairly developed civilization in the days of Hatshepsut and Thutmose III.

"It becomes apparent that the different dates at which we begin the history of divers people are merely the marks of our ignorance. The Tell-el-Amarna letters carry on the general picture of Palestinian and Syrian life almost to the entrance of the Jews into the valley of the Nile. It is probable, though not certain, that the 'Habiru' spoken of in this correspondence were Hebrews."

A well-walled city 3,500 years ago!! Palestine so wealthy that Egypt wanted to conquer it!! Indeed a "land of milk and honey."

Robby

Durant quotes Petrie in "Egypt and Israel" (1925):--"The discoveries here summarized have restored considerable credit to those chapters of Genesis that record the early traditions of the Jews. In its outlines, and barring supernatural incidents, the story of the Jews as unfolded in the Old Testament has stood the test of criticism and archelogy.

"Every year adds corroboration from documents, monuments, or excavations. For example; potsherds unearthed at Tel Ad-Diweir in 1935 bore Hebrew inscriptions confirming part of the narrative of the Books of Kings. We must accept the Biblical account provisionally until it is disproved."

Robby

One further comment on the tenacity of the Jews in the region we are now discussing. From THE MUQADDIMAH (An Introduction to History) by the Arab scholar Ibn Khaldun, a 14th century author whom Oriental historians refer to as having written "the earliest critical study of history," come these comments:

"In the age of the Israelites, where there existed a very large number of tribes with a great variety of group feelings - such as the tribes of Palestine, Canaan and Judea, the children of Esau, the Midyanites, the children of Lot, the Edomites, the Armenians, the Amalekites, Girgashites, and the Nabataeans - it was difficult for the ISraelites to establish their dynasty firmly. Time after time they were endangered, yet continued their opposition. The spirit of opposition in the country communicated itself to the Israelites and they opposed their own government and revolted against it. Eventually, they were overpowered, first by the Persians, then by the Greeks, and finally by the Romans, when their power came to an end in the Diaspora." Sounds like a long history of tenaciously fighting off oppressors to me.

It is interesting for me to read Ibn Khaldun alongside Durant. Their work is separated by 6 centuries and expresses different cultural backgrounds and perceptions, yet readily depicts the same region.

writing 6 centuries before Durant, and of an area which he knows first-hand,whose comments focus on the region we are now discussing, alongside Durant, whose comments written seven centuries later, reflect the Western understanding of the ancient period

Thank you, Mahlia, for helping us to see ancient Judea from the viewpoint of another historian:--"From THE MUQADDIMAH (An Introduction to History) by the Arab scholar Ibn Khaldun, a 14th century author:--'There existed a very large number of tribes with a great variety of group feelings - such as the tribes of Palestine, Canaan and Judea, the children of Esau, the Midyanites, the children of Lot, the Edomites, the Armenians, the Amalekites, Girgashites, and the Nabataeans.'"

Mahlia adds: "Their work is separated by 6 centuries and expresses different cultural backgrounds and perceptions, yet readily depicts the same region."

The listing of these tribes may also help those of us here who are Jewish or acquainted with Jewish history to share comments about those various tribes.

Robby

Durant continues:--"The Jews believed that the people of Abraham had come from Ur in Sumeria, and had settled in Palestine (ca. 2200 B.C.) a thousand years or more before Moses -- and that the conquest of the Canaanites was merely a capture by the Hebrews of the land promised them by their God. The Amraphael mentioned in Genesis (xiv,1) as 'King of Shinar in those days' was probably Amarpal, father of Hammurabi, and his predecessor on the throne of Babylon. There are no direct references in contemporary sources to either the Exodus or the conquest of Canaan."

Interesting to me -- as a non-historian -- that the Jews had been in Palestine at least ten centuries before the time of Moses. I think sometimes we all need to step back and make time comparisons. For example, the United States has only existed a little over two centuries.

Robby

According to the Link I furnished earlier which gave definitions:--

"Judah was later called Judea. The Hebrew word means 'praised.' Judah was the son of Jacob and Leah (Gen. 29v35). The tribe which descended from Judah inherited a large area around Jerusalem, in southern Palestine (Josh.15v20-63)."

Again a reminder that it is important to give sources of our remarks here. Some of these "facts" may be true and some have not been verified.

Robby

Mahlia, the quote about Zoroastrianism and Judaism came from this site. Third paragraph.
Hebrew Goddesses and the Origin of Judaism

There will be those who agree and those who disagree with the comments in that Link, Mal. But it certainly is "food for thought."

Robby

Below is a link to a site which shows coins of Ancient Judea.

Coinage of Ancient Judea

History of Plumbing: Jerusalem

Lots of intriguing stuff, Mal. By the time we leave Judea for the next civilization, we should be "experts" on how they lived at that time.

Robby

I read Mal’s link about god and goddesses and it brought to my mind several personal views on the theme and I will try to explain my point of view to the best of my ability.

The author of the article on Jewish mythology describes in detail the channels by which Jews and other religious groups came to worship goddesses and the one that is named most often in the bible is Asherah or Astarte. That goddess is depicted as a ‘prostitute’ because she is the goddess of fertility and because of extreme religiosity, her worshipers claimed that she commanded them to commit extreme acts of perversity, even the burning of small children as a gift offering.

Then, Jews eliminated female goddesses from their religion, statues of goddesses were eliminated also rites honoring a female goddess because the Jewish faith now proclaimed, or decided that God was male. The Catholic Church reinstated a female deity by worshiping the mother of Christ perhaps because the Catholic faith wants to distance itself from the Jewish faith. I don’t know.

In my opinion, all this is a scientific speculation on whether God is female or male. God does not need to be one or the other, because sexes are only useful to perpetuate the species. If we are eternal, there is no need for this. Life after death needs no gender since we will be spiritual. Why should it be necessary for humans to worship man made gods or goddesses, they are useless for millions of believers like me.

Eloise, you ask:--"Why should it be necessary for humans to worship man made gods or goddesses, they are useless for millions of believers like me."

The key word, in my opinion, in your question is "necessary." Each human makes his/her own choice based upon what they consider their "needs.". You are entitled to yours as are all other humans, at least in a Democracy.

Robby

ELOISE - I think it's important (as Robby keeps reminding us) to focus on the ANCIENT time period in which the male and female goddesses about which we are reading were worshipped and to understand the culture of that time - not the contemporary period in which we now live or the Western concepts from which we view the world. The ancients lived in male dominated societies (in some ways as many do today); certainly the incorporation of a female deity would bring to mind "prostitution," whether it be "street-level" or sanctioned Temple Virgins. The issue of gender in gods is a contemporary one. Can you imagine Moses's reaction if the voice of "the Holy One" had been female? Much of what we are reading - and what will be read in future - can be abrasive to contemporary thought. But that's what history is all about. As Americans say "different strokes for different folks" and as the Persians have believed for years "the way of the Gods is not our way" in any time period.

Mahlia, thank you for that simple but all-explanatory phrase:--"Much of what we are reading - and what will be read in future - can be abrasive to contemporary thought."

We do not need to agree with the behaviors of those who lived centuries ago nor do we need to follow their behavior. But, as Durant tells us, we have their heritage and the more we understand them, the more we possibly can understand ourselves.

Robby

Persian and Mal - Perhaps my last paragraph did not apply to this forum so please consider it withdrawn. I am trying to think like ancient people did, but my scant education did not include analysis of that calibre. I will refrain from personal comments on that subject.

From the perspective of another historian, Flavius Josephus, Jewish historian b. 79 AD.
The Antiquities of the Jews and other works

"We cannot tell when the Jews entered Egypt, nor whether they came to it as freemen or as slaves. We may take it as likely that the immigrants were at first a modest number, and that the many thousands of Jews in Egypt in Moses' time were the consequence of a high birth rate. As in all periods, 'the more they afflected them, the more they multiplied and grew.' The story of the 'bondage' in Egypt, of the use of the Jews as slaves in great construction enterprises, their rebellion and escape -- or emigration -- to Asia, has many internal signs of essential truth, mingled, of course, with supernatural interpolations customary in all the historical writing of the ancient East.

"Even the story of Moses must not be rejected offhand. It is astonishing, however, that no mention is made of him by either Amos or Isaiah, whose preaching appears to have precedeed by a century the composition of the Pentateuch."

A reminder, if you would, please:--

1 - We are reading a history, not a Holy Book.
2 - We are reading history as seen by Durant.
3 - We are now able, after examining in detail, Sumeria, Egypt, Babylonia, and Assyria, to perhaps better understand the customs of the Ancients in Judea.
4 - None of this is expected to change our personal beliefs. We hold these to ourselves.

Robby

Robby, you must feel like a border collie trying to direct a large herd of exceptionally curious and intelligent goats! Each of us tends to run off in unexpected directions while you try to keep us on a common path. As you said when we came to the discussion on ancient Judea, there is enormous temptation to inject today's situation into the study of ancient times. You are doing a tremendous job, helped greatly by additional material found by Mal and others. THANK YOU!

By the way, are we to study ancient Afghanistan, or has that already been covered? It would be interesting, because like Palestine it has historically been a pathway over which peoples of very different cultures and beliefs moved.

ROBBY - SWN has raised an interesting point, since there is historical evidence that some of the tribes in Afghanistan, as well as the Indian sub-continent are descended from the ancient Hebrews (especially the Bene Israel of India, who also had large branches in Iran and southern Iraq). Afghan folklore culture also carries these beliefs from one generation to another, much in the same way that the contemporary Ethiopian culture refers to their "ancient lineage" as having derived from "God's Chosen People."

I haven't been around for several days because I was in a fight with an anti virus program that wouldn't let me access familiar sites. I uninstalled it and now get around quite nicely. But there are days of information to comment on. I will try to limit myself.

There was the question about black Jews. The Falashas of Ethiopia were lost for centuries but recently most of them have emigrated to Israel. There is also a tribe in Africa which shares a disproportionate amount of a particular gene, the Cohen gene, which most Jews who have identified themselves as descendants of the high priest of biblical times have. How do they know who they are descended from you might ask. This was information passed down from father to son for several thousand years. My family are descendants of the Levites, the group that were assistants in the Temple.

There was a query about the definition of Zionism. This is the ancient dream of the Jews to have a homeland in Zion (Israel). You will find a reference in the Bible that took place during the Babylonian exile "By the rivers of Babylon,there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion." Psalm 137.

Looking at the alphabet comparisons was interesting. I could see modern Hebrew letters that closely resembled both Aramaic and Nabatian. It's true that only a small group of people are still maintaining the Aramaic language. I remember when the Dead Sea Scrolls first made the news, Time magazine featured a fragment of Dead Sea Scroll on the cover. My father proceeded to read the text - he had learned Aramaic as well as Hebrew.

The item on the 40,000 year old skulls found at Haifa sounded a familiar note. I remembered seeing a skull at the Royal Ontario Museum, of one found near Tel Aviv, which was 45,000 years old. Dare I say this without getting deleted. I said to my family "Funny, he doesn't look Jewish!"

Mahlia mentions Ibn Khaldun in the 14th century. Interesting there was a lot of religious scholarship in Europe during the late Middle Ages and many people (but not all) in the three main religions cooperated with each other in their research and discussions to determine history and truth. A golden age of sorts.

If you looked at the coins used in Judea during the various conquests,you saw pictures of various rulers on them. This is why money changers were needed in front of the Temple. They changed the money to coins that didn't have people depicted on them to obey the commandment about not worshipping idols. The plumbing link was interesting too. In the book The Source by James Michener, the story is based on these sources of water and the tunnel dug in Jerusalem by King Hezekiah.

SWN:--Afghanistan will not be covered as a nation (which I don't believe it was in those days) but we will find ourselves often discussing those areas and tribes related to that part of the continent - not only while discussing Judea but as we move forward to Persia and India. "Goats" was your analogy, not mine!

So many interesting facts arising here. I hope that all participants here will alert their friends in other discussion groups as to what information we are unearthing.

As for you Lurkers, you know my constant wish!

Robby

Map and information.
Canaan - The Promised Land - Ancient Palestine

Durant continues:--"When Moses led the Jews to Mt. Sinai, he was merely following the route laid down by Egyptian turquoise-hunting expeditions for a thousand years before him. The account of the forty years' wandering in the desert, once looked upon as incredible, now seems reasonable enough in a traditionally nomadic people. And the conquest of Canaan was but one more instance of a hungry nomad horde falling upon a settled community.
"The conquerors killed as many as they could, and married the rest. Slaughter was unconfined, and (to follow the text) was divinely ordained and enjoyed. Gideon, in capturing two cities, slew 120,000 men. Only in the annals of the Assyrians do we meet again with such hearty killing, or easy counting. Occasionally, we are told, 'the land rested from war.'

"Moses had been a patient statesman, but Joshua was only a plain, blunt warrior. Moses had ruled bloodlessly by inventing interviews with God, but Joshua ruled by the second law of nature -- that the superior killer survives. In this ralistic and unsentimental fashion the Jews took their Promised Land."

Another view, perhaps, but something to consider.

Robby

It is well to point out that the "judges' were not legal arbitors but were military rulers. It is interesting to me that the first of these military leaders was a woman. Deborah the Judge. The Hebrews were , I thought, a patriarchal society. How did it come about that a woman, who later would sit upstairs in Synagogue, now in the days of the judges, would rule in a military capacity. Sharon, you must know the answer to this one.

Indeed, an interesting question, Justin. Any reactions here to the GREEN quote above which begins with "The judges...?"

Robby

Speaking of the residents of Judea, Durant says:--"It was their history that made them, not they who made their history. At their very first appearance they are already a mixture of many stocks. Only by the most unbelievable virtue could a 'pure' race have existed among the thousand ethnic cross-currents of the Near East. But the Jews were the purest of all, for they intermarried only very reluctantly with other peoples. Hence they have maintained their type with astonishing tenacity.
"The Hebrew prisoners on the Egyptian and Assyrian reliefs, despite the prejudices of the artist, are recognizably like the Jews of our own time. There, too, are the long and curved Hittite nose, the projecting cheek-bones, the curly hair and beard, though one cannot see, under the Egyptian caricature, the scrawny toughness of body, the subtlety and obstinacy of spirit, that have characterized the Semites from the 'stiff-necked' followers of Moses to the inscrutable Bedoins and tradesmen of today.

"In the early years of their conquest they dressed in simple tunics, low-crowned hats or turban-like caps, and easy-going sandals. As wealth came, they covered their feet with leather shoes, and their tunics with fringed kaftans. Their women, who were among the most beautiful of antiquity, painted their cheeks and their eyes, wore all the jewelry they could get, and adopted to the best of their ability the newest styles from Babylon, Nineveh, Damascus or Tyre."

Comments, anyone?

Robby

Here is a BEAUTIFUL MAP of Ancient Jerusalem.

Robby

This is part of an essay Sea Bubble wrote about learning Hebrew, which was published in The WREX Magazine a few months ago. I'm sure she won't mind my posting it here.

"Israel and Me"

"When I first arrived in Israel, my main problem was the language. Hebrew is a totally alien sounding way of communication for someone used to European or even African dialects.

"Not knowing a language, I can usually make out the topic of a conversation, be it in a language of latino/greek origins or one with german/saxon roots. With Hebrew, I was at a complete loss. No points of reference, sounds so barbaric that I couldn't explain how to reproduce them, and that grammar! It is called the most logical in the world, but for me it was the most puzzling in the world.

"Have you ever thought that in saying 'I read the paper' you would have to consider if 'I' is male or female? That you should, accordingly, put the verb in masculine or feminine form ? Since when does a verb have a gender? The writing looks like a secret code, until you get the gist of it, in print as well as in handwriting.

"Then, when you graduate proudly, from 1st grade to the next, the teacher tells you: All those vowels you've been using, they are for small children. WE know how to read now, so we don't need them anymore!These vowels just get dropped "out of the book". I would like to see you read a paragraph in your daily paper with no vowels whatsoever. You don't believe me? Just try this ( I will be kind, I'll consider Y a consonant...)

" 'Y wll mt Jsph, bldr f th fmly's frtn,grpplng wth th hardshps, dngr, nd bg-bsnss mnplsts f th past-Cvl Wr prd. Pssnt, crgs, nrgtc nd dsyncrtc, th Pedlocks strm thrgh th hrly-brly f rly ndstrl mrc, srvv th chgs f Frst Wrld Wr, sccmb t th Grt Crsh nd Dprssn, nd r-frm thr rnks nc gn fr a nw sslt n th wrld.'

"That's the introduction to 'The Padlocks', a book by Stephen Longstreet, if you are interested to know.

"You realize that a word written 'crs' could be curse, cars, cruise, curios, cares and many more! It is conjectured that if we Jews are so good at analyzing and weighing possibilities it is because we are practicing a guessing game the whole day."

E T
All rights reserved
© 2001

The link below takes you to a site about Deborah.
About Deborah

Durant says:

"The invaders never formed a united nation, but remained for a long time as twelve more or less independent tribes, organized and ruled on the principles not of the state but the patriarchal family."

The tribal family "was the most convenient eceonomic unit in tilling the fields and tending the flocks." This seems to be a continuation of other tribal societies about which we've read. Is this like Afghanistan today? Did the ancient Jewish tribes and elders disagree among each other, or did their laws and common religion prevent this sort of thing happening?

Durant says:

"For when, under Solomon, industry came to the towns, and made the individual the new economic unit of production, the authority of the family weakened, even as today, and the inherent order of Jewish life decayed."

In what way did the order of Jewish life decay? Durant mentions that Solomon divided his kingdom into 12 districts in the hope of lessening the separation of the tribes, but failed to unite the tribes into one unit. This indicates to me that the dominating tribal system did not work very well when it came to being one nation.

Mal

Malryn's quote from Durant about the patriarchal family brings to mind the Genesis story about Jacob's family, which appeared to have operated is exactly that way, except they reproduced freely enough to have many more than twelve. A fictionalized account of this family, "The Red Tent" was discussed on SR recently and the discussion is still available.

Robby, remember I did say highly intelligent and extremely curious goats. There are certainly no sheep here!

SWN only Jacob's lawful wives brought the twelve. The concubines kids did not count. In the Red Tent, I mean. It is also my source. Bubble

The information below is from the Jewish Outreach Institute at www.joi.org/ga/look.shtml

"Jews have adapted the customs and pronunciations of their respective countries, resulting in two main types of ethnic traditions: Sephardim and Ashkenazim. The Sephardim and Ashkenazim differ in their Hebrew pronunciation, certain features of their prayer rites, and many customs and traditions. Generally, Sephardic Jewry traces its origin to the Iberian Peninsula and, before, that, Babylonia. The Ashkenazim largely follow the traditions and customs that originated among German Jews, which eventually spread throughout Europe and Russia.

"Ancient Jewish merchants reached as far as China through the Silk Route, and communities of Chinese Jews existed until the early part of the 20th Century. Communities of Jews in India still exist, also founded by ancient Jewish traders. Most of the ancient Jewish community from Ethiopia has been brought to Israel over the last twenty years, and now Israel's citizenry runs the gamut of all shades of humanity.

"The twelve tribes of Israel were the descendants of the twelve sons of the biblical Jacob. With the establishment of a united monarchy under King David, Israel was organized into twelve units, structured heavily along tribal lines. However, after the death of King Solomon, the tribes split, with ten tribes, Reuben, Simeon, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulon, Ephraim, and Manasseh forming the northern kingdom of Israel, and the remaining two tribes, Judah and Benjamin, forming the southern kingdom of Judah. The northern kingdom lasted for about two hundred years; it fell to the Assyrians in 721 BCE, and the ten tribes were scattered over the Earth, their subsequent history unclear. The Jews have never accepted the loss of the ten tribes as final. Such prophets as Jeremiah and Ezekiel predicted their return, and the Legend of the Lost Tribes has worked its way into Jewish folklore. Some people believe this explains the presence of Jews is Asia and Africa."

From one of Robby's goats. And watch out for those goats. they can be hard on the environment. My Black side of the family could not believe that there were Black Jews but I saw a television program some time back on the Ethiopian Jews that were brought into Israel. We learn as we go. Thanks Mal for Post 535.

There was a wonderful program on The Ancient Mysteries series that was the story of the Ethiopian people taking up the Jewish religion. The first I had heard was years ago when Sammy Davis Jr., a practicing Jew, had explained that his family were Ethipian Jews. Then my sis read about this in some history and told me too about the Jewish travelers on the Silk Road.fr

I hope I'm not out of line asking site format questions. How can I search for a message number? The search I found seems to only by keywords. If I know the message number where I quit reading, I'd like to return to it easily the next time I log on. What I'm doing now is reading backwards from the latest message to where I quit before. (Strangely, this is how I often read newspaper articles--from the end backwards to the beginning).

A comment: When I was working on a master's in humanities, a professor stated that most ancient cultures have a concept of a god's virgin birth, as well as everlasting life--this reward being a primary reason why so many ancient people were willingly sacrificed to their gods. (same today for the Taleban?) The god's virgin birth manifests in pre-Columbian cultures. For example, the Aztec god of war, Huitzilopochtli, sprang full grown from his mother's body. He then slew his evil sister and their 400 siblings; beheaded and dismembered her. She had been plotting the murder of her Goddess-mother, pregnant with Huitzilopochtli. This legend is known as the Aztec creation myth.

Durant mentions the god Adoni who "rose form the dead as often as he died, and ascended to heaven in the presence of his worshipers." P. 295.

I'm interested in watching for other examples that prove/disprove my professor's theory as we read further.

OK, Robby, that's one lurker's comment!

Judy, good to see you here but I am not qualified to answer questions about "site formats" and "message numbers". The Discussion Index above will lead you to forums that answer those questions. Thanks for those examples of "virgin births' in various religions. One advantage of our examining civilizations in the order in which Durant presents them is that of helping us to see how beliefs seem to move along in a stream from one culture to another, being modified as they go along.
Robby

Mal, thank you for posting that wonderful essay by Sea Bubble about learning the Hebrew language.!

Bubble, would you please give us your reaction to the quote above which begins "Hebrew was among...?"

Robby

Judy:

To find a post, go to OUTLINE and click it. There is an OUTLINE link at the top and bottom of discussion posts. If you know the approximate date of the post you're looking for, scroll until you find the date, the name of the person and the post. If it's a recent post, click LAST when you reach the outline, and that link will take you to the most recent ones.

Mal

Consider the following:--

"In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. This incredibly Jeffersonian condition gave way under the needs of war. The threat of domination by the Philistines brought a temporary unity to the tribes, and persuaded them to appoint a king whose authority over them should be continuous."

What are your thoughts regarding this philosophy? Would you consider that a form of democracy? Why did it "give way" under the needs of war? Does the threat of domination usually bring a "temporary unity" and the need to appoint one man to guide the populace? Do any of you believe that there was a lesson there for us to learn?

Robby

I do not think it is a new message but an old old truth really that applys today as in the past, that under threat from outsiders "groups" will unite and appoint a leader to be able to overcome that threat. It happens today as well as 12,000 years ago. I am thankful that we have the republic in America we have. We are already "many groups" joined through a federal government for the purpose of protection of our borders. Faith

"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

"The prophet Samuel warned them against certain disadvantages in rule by one man. Their first king, Saul, gave them good and evil instructively -- fought their battles bravely - lived simply on his own estate at Gileah - pursued young David with murderous attentions - and was beheaded in flight from the Philistines. The Jews learned, then, at the first opportunity, that wars of succession are among the appanages of monarchy. Unless the little epic of Saul, Jonathan and David is merely a masterpiece of literary creation (for there is no contemporary mention of these personalities outside the Bible), this first king, after a bloody interlude, was succeeded by David - heroic slayer of Goliath - tender lover of Jonathan and many maidens - half-naked dancer of wild dances - seductive player of the harp - sweet singer of marvelous songs - and able king of the Jews for almost forty years."

Any comments?

Robby

Justin: No I don't know the answer about Deborah. Thank goodness for Malryn's excellent web searches. I suppose that the Jews just took on the characteristics of the cultures they lived in. As you probably know types of observance evolved and while men and women sit separately in orthodox congregations, they sit together in the conservative and reform synagogues.

I thought I'd just put in a note about the number 40 since it occurs so often in the bible. 40 years means more than a generation. 40 days is more than a month. The Hebrews wandered in the desert more than 40 years so that a generation that hadn't known slavery would enter Canaan.

Robby mentions the term "stiff necked" in quoting Durant in #528. This term is from the Yom Kippur service (Day of Atonement) and is one of the many sins Jews ask to be forgiven. If any here is familiar with the Canadian novelist Mordecai Richler who died last summer, he often referred to the Jews as "my stiff-necked people."

There is some evidence that King David existed but was a minor king. His name has turned up on a fragment of some kind. It was at King David's time that record keeping started and while I suspect the records were not especially accurate, at least they record names and battles and kings.

I agree that a mature person can make moral decisions but morality doesn't win a war, strength does. All the morals in the world don't keep you from getting killed if that's what your enemy wants. As well, some times a moral decision that is right for you isn't right for other people. The person who springs to mind is Sir Thomas More, a Man for All Seasons. Or Socrates who died for what he believed in. What a loss.

Further information about the PROPHET SAMUEL in this Link.

Robby

For more information about KING DAVID click here.

Robby

Much DETAILED INFORMATION about David and the formation of Judea.

Robby

the discussion on papyrus and it's influence on communication can be seen in the same light as the computer today. It's already begun to make many changes in the way busines is and run and famililies stay in touch. It has become a product in it's own right. I wonder if papyrus makers were in business. such technology creates changes in every aspect of life

Claire

A most important point, Claire. Do you suppose the makers and users of papyrus had any inkling of the effect they were about to have on civilization?

Robby

I thought you might find it interesting to know that there is a website http://kulanu.ubalt.edu/ which shows the varied community of Jewish people all over the world.

The Egyptians first developed papyrus, and the Phoenician city of Byblos created a monopoly on papyrus making. Were the Dead Sea Scrolls written on papyrus? I think so. Paper was invented and introduced by the Chinese as another substrate for writing. The original European paper manufacturing process required rags and it was not until Europeans started to wear underwear and sleep between sheets that paper was manufactured in Europe on a commercial scale. The oldest continuous commercial papermaking company is the Fabriano mill in Italy. Animal skins were made into parchment and vellum and the ancient Greek city of Pergamum developed a reputation for the best parchment. Back to the goats and sheep. Parchment gradually replaced papyrus to eventually be replaced by paper.

Ink is easy to make, just start with some soot from the bricks of a fireplace, mix with gum arabic and water. Then go out and cut a stalk of a reed or a feather of a large bird, slice off the end, cut at an angle, and you have what our early ancestors had to write with. If you wrote with a brush as many early people did, you chewed the end of the reed.

I remember years ago, during a tour in China, I took a Chinese caligraphy course at the university where I was teaching. Part of the class was a visit to a paper mill, where we spent the day learning about the manufacturing of rice paper. During the explanations and discussion with the students, the instructor also spoke about the "ancient methods of writing" on animal skins in various parts of the world (which could endure a "stronger stroke of the writing implement") and the ancient papyrus (I can't remember the Chinese word he used), which required more delicacy. We also spent some time in one of the museums and had a chance to view ancient scrolls made of rice paper from the early dynasties. Surprisingly, there were also bits of ancient Egyptian papyrus on display, which we learned had been part of trade records between China and "the countries outside the Middle Kingdom." Later in a research trip I made to Kaifeng to learn about the ancient Jewish community there, I saw pictures of papyrus with Hebrew writing, which one of the Chinese scholars was studying in connection with the earlier traders from the Middle East who traversed the trade routes into China. The scholar told me that the papyri in the photos had been found at the site of a mosque in southern China, which had previously been a Jewish Temple.

Lost Tribes of Israel travel to ancient Japan

Having comupter problems - using it very little till I can get someone to look at it - limiting my use therefore not in here but did read over 120 posts tonight.

We do not know the past. We know history as it is written by authors who interpret what is available. Some authors conduct in depth research and attempt to present a subject objectively. I think Durant falls in that category. Other authors present a subject based on common knowledge at the time of writing. The biblical authors, I think fall in the latter class. All authors interpret the material available and some authors slant material to fit a need. Do the Biblical authors fall in that class as well?

Justin, I rmember learning while we read The Red Tent that it is only very recently that funding enabled Biblical scholars to enter in and share archaeological research. Up until recently the Biblical scholar's only resource was researching the Bible itself in its many rewritten versions. Funding kept the two disciplins seperate. The added archaeological finds tracing history is aiding research, supporting many truths and myths about the Bible.

Risa:--Welcome to our discussion group! And thank you so much for that Link which lists IN DETAIL BY NATIONS (!) Jewish communities all over the world!! I'm sure that many of us here who have heritage from so many nations will find this Link enlightening.
And Barbara, your Link shares some absolutely fascinating similarities AGAIN IN DETAIL (!) between Japanese customs and ancient Hebrew customs - showing, for example, the similarity between the Crest of the Imperial House of Japan and the Crest on the Gate of Jerusalem -- or -- the similarities in hair styles. Many, many more. Go see for yourself. When we get to Japan in Durant's book, our memory of what we are learning now of Ancient Judea may ring a bell.
My sincere "thank you" to all of you who are giving us these marvelous Links. And I hope that many of you are contacting Senior Netters you know in other discussion groups and urging them to become part of our "family" here.
Robby

Durant continues about King David:--"Here, so early in literature, is a character fully drawn, real with all the contradictory passions of a living soul -- as ruthless as his time, his tribe and his god -- and yet as ready to pardon his enemies -- putting captives to death wholesale, like any Assyrian monarch -- charging his son Solomon to 'bring down to the grave with blood' the 'hoar head' of old Shimei who had cursed him many years before -- taking Uriah's wife into his harem incontinently -- and sending Uriah into the front line of battle to get rid of him -- accepting Nathan's rebuke humbly, but keeping the lovely Bathsheba none the less -- forgiving Saul almost seventy times seven, merely taking his shield when he might have taken his life -- sparing and supporting Mephibosheth, a possible pretender to his throne -- pardoning his ungrateful son Absalom, who had been caught in armed rebellion, and bitterly mourning that son's death in treasonable battle against his father.

"This is an authentic man, of full and varied elements, beating within him all the vestiges of barbarism, and all the promise of civilization.""

Any comments here about barbarism vs civilization? Any answers to Voltaire's question in the Heading?

Robby

"Hebrew was among the most majestically sonorous of all the languages of the earth. It was full of masculine music."

Oh yes Hebrew sounds majestic, harmonious, profoundly resonnant, especially when spoken by a scholar of Sephardic origin. The most beautiful text to read in this language is the Bible. I think the words were also chosen for their sounds when creating a verse.

Masculine music? well of course: Services in synagogues are conducted only by male voices. The radio programmes every morning starts with the reading of the days portion of the Bible. I am not a religious person, but am always moved by the majesty of it even if I do not pay attention to its content.

People in the street, in the open market use a coarser language and it can sound quite rough to the foreign ear unused to so many guttural or 'scratching' sounds. Some sound letters for example sound just like someone clearing his throat or like the furious hissing of a cat.
Bubble

While I am not Jewish, I had the pleasure of attending services in synagogues numerous times to which I had been invited when I was a Scout Executive. I was always profoundly moved as I listened to the magnificent voices of the Cantors.

Robby

Bubble:--Am I correct that the "street language" to which you refer is Yiddish which is entirely different from Hebrew, the language spoken in Ancient Judea?

Robby

Wrong Robby! Street language is Hebrew as well, but since is is also talked by new immigrants, people who never learned it properly, it has all kind of syntax mistakes, and the accents is heavily influenced by the mother tongue of country of origin. I am reminded of the English you hear in films, talked in Harlem for example.

Yiddish was a common language in the 20 first years of Israel. Now you hear it only in very religious circles where Hebrew is still considered too sacred to be used in daily life, or among the aged who did not master Hebrew. Yiddish sounds very much like German, the same as Ladino resembles much the Castillian Spanish. Yiddish is talked by Ashkenazi people and Ladino by the Sephardi people.
Bubble

Voltaire wants to know when man went from barbarism to civilization? If he had known that himself would he have asked that question? Rather, I think he would have offered his opinion.

We are still going through rites of passage similar to the ones teenagers go through before they reach maturity. We have not become ‘mature’ yet, we are still in the throes of searching, by trial and error, what makes men civilized. If we were civilized, there would be no barbarism of the kind we are going through today in the 21st century.

PJ, OJ, VBG, SP, ETC, PDQ, FAQ, FAX, ICQ, and many more now coming out with the computer age. We are people who like to abbreviate everything. If this trend continues, we will be speaking and writing in initials and people not living in the US will have to guess what it all means.

The best reference book about the history of the Jews I've found is The Antiquities of the Jews by Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, b. 79 CE. In my mind, it is more objective than the Bible as historical reference because it is written as a study of history and does not contain the lessons of the Bible. There is a good long part about King David in The Antiquities of the Jews. Antiquities of the Jews requires time, effort and study, and cannot be skimmed over lightly.

Voltaire wanted to know "....what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." My answer to that is read The Story of Civilization by Will and Ariel Durant. Whether barbarism continues in this day and age, the fact remains that in some civilizations barbarism is a great deal less than in others. My question is: When will all civilizations be at an equal level, and how will that be accomplished?

Mal

“DAVID AND BATHSHEBA The story of David's relationship with Bathsheba is one of the most misread stories in the Bible, and we have to be careful in reading it as a soap opera. In summary, however, this is what happens…..” quoted from Robby’s link on King David.

Durant tells the story of the wickedness of King David while the Bible tells of the greatness of King David. In Durant’s version I read that David was indeed a very barbarous man. In the Bible, David was the one who wrote the magnificent book of Psalms and accomplished great things for his country. Even if I understand Durant’s harsh position on the man, I am more inclined to think about David as a great statesman not very different from the ones of the past century.

Very few are both strong and good as Nelson Mandela and Gandhi who suffered imprisonment and hardships to advance their cause but they did not start wars and Historians might just ignore those two as history books mostly describe the barbarism of mankind.

When future Historians write about what went on during the past two World wars, they will write it colored with the views of their own culture and beliefs, and if they come from a different culture and beliefs than ours, they might not write things we would agree with.

There is no perfect objectivity in my opinion. Our thinking is always biased and emotional. A good thing too because if everybody had the same opinion, a discussion would not be ‘worth its salt’ I was told once.

Eloise, you say:--"Durant tells the story of the wickedness of King David while the Bible tells of the greatness of King David."

As I see it, Durant points out (Post 559) that he was both. He speaks of David as someone "with all the contradictory passions of a living soul. This is an authentic man, of full and varied elements, beating within him all the vestiges of barbarism, and all the promise of civilization."

Robby

I think Durant's treatment of David in Our Oriental Heritage is realistic, not harsh. It seems to me that King David was a poet who followed the traditions of the Jews at the time. Durant says on page 310:

"The authors of the Pentateuch (Ed: later the first five books of the Christian Bible), to whom religion was an instrument of statesmanship, formed this Vulcan into Mars, so that in their energetic hands Yahveh became predominantly an imperialistic, expansionist God of Hosts, who fights for his people as fiercely as the gods of the Iliad. 'The Lord is a man of war," says Moses; and David echoes him: 'He teacheth my hands to war.' "

Considering the beliefs of that time, it's not difficult to see why King David was the man who wrote the Psalms and committed ferocious acts (according to our standards) at the same time.

Mal

Eloise, you say:--"Durant tells the story of the wickedness of King David while the Bible tells of the greatness of King David."

Robby

As I was listening this morning to Diane Rehm on NPR interviewing Robert Kaplan, author of "Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos," I was wishing that everyone here was litening. Kaplan says that everyone should read Ancient History (not just history but ancient history). He says: "There is nothing happening now that hasn't happened before."

Some of the comments quoted in book reviews (and which he stated this morning) and comments by reviewers about his thoughts are:

1 - There are parallels beteen conflicts ancient and current.
2 - War is not an aberration. Civilization can repress barbarism but cannot eradicate it.
3 - Look to ancient philophers and military strategists for ageless wisdom.
4 - The ills of the 20th century are less unique than we think.
5 - Examine the value of ancient insights.
6 - Examine the driving force of the pagan notion of self-interest.

Kaplan says that now that we are at war, we are living in "normal" times. He says that times of "sovereign peace" are just brief "aberrations" between conflict.

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Wickedness or greatness...... win your wars you are great, lose your wars you are wicked; and of importance, on which side the Lord was, or whatever He ordered at that time........as is written.

I wish I had heard Robert Kaplan. Maybe I will look for that book at the library. I think the points you listed Robby(about Kaplans thoughts) are statements I can agree with. However I do not understand this...6 - Examine the driving force of the pagan notion of self-interest- Perhaps you could elucidate. Faith

"I do not understand this...6 - Examine the driving force of the pagan notion of self-interest- Perhaps you could elucidate."

Faith, I can only give you my understanding of that. To me, it refers to what we have been calling violence or barbarism. If I want something, I take it. That is what we call the "pagan" approach as opposed to our so-called "civilized" approach.

A common phrase in foreign affairs is: "Nations don't have friends; they have interests." Kaplan is saying, as I understand it - let's not kid ourselves. Sovereign nations were built by civilizations forcibly taking over from other civilizations - and that we can learn much by watching the "success" of those ancient "pagan" civilizations. Those civilizations had a "driving force." They intended to win, no matter what price it cost.

Perhaps others here have a different interpretation.

Robby

I agree that there's much to be learned about one's own time by studying history, but is there anything that says the compulsions and traditions of history can't change?

For example: - If I go to a bar every Friday and Saturday night and get tanked up, perhaps getting in a fight; then sober up all day Sunday and part of Monday because that's what my peers do and always have done, and I think it's expected of me and feel compelled to repeat the same behavior over and over regardless of the consequences, is it possible to change that behavior? Yes, it is. It only takes one or two to influence others to make the same changes.

Civilizations are made up of people who can change, aren't they?

Mal

Mal:--Following your analogy of the person who gets drunk every week, gets into fights every week, gets beaten up every week. As you well know, some people change and some don't. Without getting sidetracked as to whether we are talking about an actual disease or a behavior trait, the fact remains that thousands, if not millions, continue this behavior, even while knowing that they are "losing." Many continue this behavior until their death - sometimes a very early death. I'm sure you're acquainted with the expression: "Insanity is continuing the same behavior over and over again, and expecting different results."

Perhaps homo sapiens has this "disease" or behavior trait. Perhaps this is the destiny of Mankind -- constant conflict.

Robby

I do understand the meaning better after your answer. Thank you Robby. It is depressing though to read the subsequent posts by you and Mal. I have heard that definition of insanity. I would prefer to think of our "pagan self-interest" as a behavioral trait since that leaves us with the possibility of change. Before change can be effected in behavior we have to recognize the behavior as destructive. And that is the biggy for mankind. My emotional feeling is that we may never change since we do not seem to have changed much in the last 12,000 years regarding war, except to get more technical about it. Faith

A good example of "Soverign nations don't have friends, they have interests," in Robby's previous post is the recent investment of arms and money from Iran into the Western provinces of Afghanistan without informing the new Afghan government in Kabul. The Iran/West Afghan factions have been dealing with each others for centuries; why should they stop now, just because a group of people in Europe got together and decided that there will be a temporary government in Kabul until a loya jirga is appointed in the summer. The Persians and the Afghans know and understand each other; their representatives under PR extremely well and speak as expected for the print and non-print press. However, in the background, not much has changed. Persia was a "civilized Nation" with extremely sophisticated forms of government at one time; now it has a two-tier system (religious and secular). Afghan has NO central government and the warlords of the provinces rein supreme, although the USA and allies won't quite believe that. The "barbarism" of ancient times of which we have been reading among Durant's varied comments is still there - not too far beneath the surface. It will certainly be much more volatile if the "donations" of arms and money from Iran to Western Afghanistan are interrupted. The recent arms and vehicles that were relinquished to US troops by the provincial warlords will be quickly replaced by their Iranian "friends." In this part of the world, one must watch not only both hands in plain sight on the table, but also what is going on underneath the table and behind closed doors. What is said or done in public is NEVER what is the real meaning (or intention) of what happens. And in this context, the contemporary provincial rulers look to the ancients to continue their ways of governing, overcoming adversaries, striking alliances, and accepting new partners.

"The contemporary provincial rulers look to the ancients to continue their ways of governing, overcoming adversaries, striking alliances, and accepting new partners."

An interesting comment by Mahlia which shows that some of the folks in that part of the world are doing what Robert Kaplan has advised us to do.

Robby

Friends?!? or Interests?!?

United States, Russia, Iraq and Oil

Although I agree with Kaplan that brief peace periods might be exceptional, but that it is an abherration is perhaps from a male point of view.

Because 'oil' has only been indispensible since the turn of the past century, the West should get used to the idea that it is time to SERIOUSLY look for alternatives to our dependency of petroleum. When it finds one be sure that the giant oil companies will want to have their ample share of the profit.

What is your point of view on that, Eloise?

Robby

I asked my eight-year-old Anthony if he likes to fight. He said "well of course, it's fun" and I asked him if girls liked to fight. He said: "No, but I don't understand why they don't. Why don't we like the same things?". He continued "I don't want to be like girls, they just like to play with Barbies, they are not tough enough. They just like to draw and play house, girls and boys don't understand each other."

So one wonders if a civilization would continue if (symbolically, of course) it "just liked to play with Barbies, draw and play house."

Robby

To continue with the ancient method of survival:--"On coming to the throne, Solomon, for his peace of mind, slew all rival claimants. This did not disturb Yahveh who, taking a liking to the young king, promised him wisdom beyond all men before or after him. Perhaps Solomon deserves his reputation, for not only did he combine in his own life the epicurean enjoyment of every pleasure and luxury with a stoic fulfillment of all his obligations as a king -- but he taught his people the values of law and order, and lured them from discord and war to industry and peace.

"He lived up to his name, for during his long reign Jerusalem, which David had made the capital, took advantage of this unwonted quiet, and increased and multipled its wealth. Originally the city had been built around a well. Then it had been turned into a fortress because of its exalted position above the plain. Now, though it was not on the main lines of trade, it became one of the busiest markets of the Near East. By maintaining the good relations that David had established with King Hiram of Tyre, Solomon encouraged Phoenician merchants to direct their caravans through Palestine, and developed a profitable exchange of agricultural products from Israel for the manufactured articles of Tyre and Sidon."

First came the violence - then came the industry. Or - as Durant has been indicating - first came the "opportunity" for economic provision.

Robby

"King Solomon built a fleet of merchantile vessels on the Red Sea, and persuaded Hiram to use this new route, instead of Egypt, in trading with Arabia and Africa. It was probably in Arabia that Solomon mined the gold and precious stones of 'Ophir', probably from Arabia that the Queen of Sheba came to seek his friendship, and perhaps his aid. We are told that the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred three score and six talents of gold. Though this could not compare with the revenues of Babylon, Nineveh or Tyre, it lifted Solomon to a place among the richest potentates of his time."

How easy when we look at our own civilization to bemoan our emphasis on money and material things. And we might ask: Who ended up with all that gold and those material things? The average citizen? Anything different nowadays from the Ancients?

Robby

Click onto ISRAEL'S GOLDEN AGE -- King Solomon's era.

Robby

ELOISE - what a wonderful opportunity to introduce your Anthony to "Deborah, a Judge of Israel," who certainly may have played with the equivalent of Barbie in her childhood, but as an adult showed her strength, logistical and leadership skills in leading Barak and the Israelite warriors against their enemies. Whether Anthony would be interested from the religious or historical aspect is entirely up to you, but the conversation you described presents such an opening for a bit of education about ancient history to a contemporary young lad. I've always loved the Story of Deborah, since it is an example of how a woman - even a "Mother of Israel" (as she describes herself) can also be a leader of warriors. And that's being pretty tough, IMO.

The Bible and Durant tell essentially the same stories about David. See 2 Samuel ll:14--"in the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it he wrote, "Put Uriah (Bathseba's husband) in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."

As for David's writing Psalms, many of them are the lamentatations of a guilty, repentent man. Psalm 38 is David's petition "O Lord, do not rebuke me in your anger or discipline me in your wrath. For your arrows have pierced me, and your hand has come down upon me. . .My guilt has overwhelmed me like a burden too heavy to bear."

So I don't agree that Durant writes of David's wickedness as well as goodness, while the Bible only glorifies David. In fact, Durant's notes for CH XII cite the Bible as his source: Judges, 1 & 2 Samuel, and 1 Kings.

Judy

How about telling Eloise's grandson about Jeanne d'Arc? Or Martha Stewart and Oprah Winfrey, two of the smartest and most successful business people in the world. Those two female warriors fight on a different kind of battleground, but it can be as tough as going out in the field with a sword.

Just out of curiosity, where do little boys first get these ideas, anyway?

Mal

Please click the link below to see pages about King Solomon's Temple. Following all the links is very worthwhile.
Solomon's Temple

Risa: Thank you for your link. It will take me a while to work my way through all the countries.

MAL - good idea about other courageous and successful women. Deborah came to mind since we are reading of the ancient period. But there are certainly plenty of women throughout history who can balance out the "Barbie" image of some of today's lassies.

Little boys get their ideas from women and these women borne ideas are reinforced by men.

HOWZAT

Some of kaplan's views correspond fairly closely with mine. I have to agree that war is not an aberation. It was recently pointed out to me that there has been no day since 1776, that one could call peaceful. Somewhere in the world some country was at war with another. I naively thought on August 14, 1945 that peace had come at last.I was tearful that day. I was wrong. It was not long before a police action began in Korea and then another war, and another, and another.Has it been any different from the agressiveness of the Assyrians, or of Saul, or David, or Solomon. Yes, I think the wars we have been involved in have not been waged in the interest of conquest or dominion but rather in the interest of peace. Not all of our eforts have been perfect, but we are pointed in the right direction.

Kaplan tells us to examine the driving force of the pagan notion of self-interest.I quarrel with this only because he identifies the force as a "pagan notion". It is the very force that drove the priests of all the ancient religions (All) in their quest for power. It is not pagan. The notion is neither heathen nor barbarous. It is the survival force that drives us all to successful living.

I have been reading the comments and following links, printing some and bookmarking some. I find the discussion very interesting, but will continue to drink in the wisdom of others for now.

Dawn:--Good to see you here!! And to know that you think enough of the various comments to either print them or bookmark them. As for "wisdom," each of us give our opinions, whatever they may be, and if someone else sees them as "wise," so be it. Please share your thoughts with us.

Robby

"Some of Solomon's wealth he used for his private pleasure. He indulged particularly his hobby for collecting concubines -- though historians undramatically reduce his 'seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines' to sixty and eighty. Perhaps by some of these marriages he wished to strengthen his friendship with Egypt and Phoenicia. Perhaps, like Rameses II, he was animated with a eugenic passion for transmitting his superior abilities.

"But most of his rvenues went to the strengthening of his government and the beautification of his capital. He repaired the citadel around which the city had been built. He raised forts and stationed garrisons at strategic points of his realm to discourage both invasion and revolt. He divided his kingdom, for administrative purposes, into twelve districts which deliberately crossed the tribal boundaries. By this plan he hoped to lessen the clannish separation of the tribes, and to weld them into one people. He failed, and Judea failed with him."

Could his creating districts that crossed tribal boundaries be the direct opposite of what is now known as "gerrymandering?" And garrisons to prevent revolt -- the equivalent of the Berlin wall? And his use of the "kingdom's" wealth for private pleasure. Can we learn anything from the Ancients?

Robby

Click HERE for a most interesting Link on Plural Marriage in Jewish History.

Robby

Robby - in your link "Interestingly, Martin Luther, recognizing that Jesus did not condemn and may have subtly condoned polygyny, later declared Polygyny to be an acceptable Christian practice."

Was Martin Luther declaring Polygyny to be an "acceptable Christian practice"? because I didn't see that written anywhere in the New Testament.

Perhaps also Christ could foresee earth's overpopulation and limited one wife for each man. If polygyny was still common practice, the earth would have had an unsustainable populaton growth a long time ago.

Eloise, I don't know which specific Link to which you are referring but, in any event, I can't speak for any of the information given in Links. Each Link comes from a different source which we examine as we read the Link.

I do know that currently we are speaking of the Ancients (prior to the Christian era) when plural marriages were acceptable.

Robby

Robbie wrote, "How easy when we look at our own civilization to bemoan our emphasis on money and material things. And we might ask: Who ended up with all that gold and those material things? The average citizen? Anything different nowadays from the Ancients?"

A tangential, whimsical thought: If the rulers hadn't gathered together all the gold & other precious metals, momuments to themselves, etc., we might have very little today, other than earthen pots, to mark an ancient civilization. We now have the treasures of ancient civilizations to learn from , remark on, and be amazed by. Would we today rather have had well-fed peasants or the treasures of The Hermitage? In fact, if the peasants were well-fed and well-treated, perhaps the explosion in population would have destroyed the earth long ago.

What will mark our own cities 2000 years from now? The Washington Monument, the St. Louis Arch, the U.S. Capitol??

I had to laugh when my step-daughter said, "If you've seen one pre-Columbian site, you've seen them all." I imagine thousands of years from now, some advanced being looking at the rubble of LA, Chicago, New York, and saying, "If you've seen one U.S. city, you've seen them all."

Judy says:--"I imagine thousands of years from now, some advanced being looking at the rubble of LA, Chicago, New York, and saying, "If you've seen one U.S. city, you've seen them all."

Are any others here, like Judy, taking the "long" look? Realizing the impermanence of it all? Considering that what is so important to us now may be just "rubble" in the eyes of those who may consider us "Ancients?"

Robby

Robby - I was referring to your post 598 about "Jewish Plural Marriages" and the author was listing ancient Jewish rulers who had several wives, then towards the end of the article, he mentions Martin Luther. Perhaps it was an author' assumption, who knows because he did not mention his source.

Eloise:--I went back and checked that Link. It shows no source whatsoever and is a perfect example of my warning as we entered Judea that we must examine carefully the sources of our various Links. What was said in this Link may be accurate -- but, on the other hand, who knows? We participants here in "Story of Civilization" may not consider ourselves "experts" but we are "thinking" individuals and so do not accept any old thing we read. By the same token, let us not "throw out the baby with the bathwater."

Robby

"In the 1500's Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant religion tolerated polygamy under special circumstances as a political necessity to 'ensure the success of the Reformation'. He did not want it to take hold among the Protestant masses."

I found this information on several different websites, but searched until I could find a reliable one. This is from the cbc.ca site, and is on a sidebar on the page at CBC Canada

Mal

Thanks Mal - That clarifies everything. A statement taken out of context is worth verifying. I only questioned it because marriage is a very important matter in studying ancient history. It defines the lineage carrying down the line important genetic elements we enherited and have to live with.

Though difficult, I try to view history without allowing personal beliefs to color that view. What is noteworthy, in my opinion, is that throughout history it has been men who have instigated wars to topple civilizations.

HOWZAT said in response to my post about where little boys got their ideas about fighting and Barbie dolls: "Little boys get their ideas from women and these women borne ideas are reinforced by men."

It seems to me that what HOWZAT said reveals a parroting by women of what men think and acceptance by women of what men do. It seems to me that it will take at least another millennium before women are able to stand up for what they think and influence society, and I find this most discouraging. If there can be no change and corrections of mistakes made over and over throughout history, I see no hope at all.

Surely there must be other people wiser and more influential than I am who believe changes and correction of historical mistakes must take place if the human race is to survive and evolve.

(I have said above that I try not to allow my personal beliefs to color my view; then turn right around and talk about them.) There have been a few who have tried to change guns into plowshares through the use of non-violence. Martin Luther King was one. Was anything accomplished by what he did? If a woman had tried his method, she'd have been shot down before she began.

I find the thought of any civilization in a pile of rubble very, very depressing. Am I the only one?

Mal

"I find the thought of any civilization in a pile of rubble very, very depressing."

I don't want to get into technical terms but this illustrates what scientists call the concepts of "entropy" as opposed to "syntropy." Putting it in an easily understood analogy -- if you build a brick wall, over a long period of time, perhaps a millenia, the wall will crumble to a pile of bricks (entropy). But you will never, no matter how many eons you wait, see a pile of bricks build itself into a wall (syntropy).

Just what is "progress" anyway?

Robby

Robby, when I read your question, what jumped into my mind was that progress is "nurturing". Instead of deliberately destroying the brick walls we already have which have proven over time to be strong and good for humanity, perhaps we should consider "nurturing" them to make them even stronger and better.

Mal

Justin says:"......Yes, I think the wars we have been involved in have not been waged in the interest of conquest or dominion but rather in the interest of peace....."

Interest of peace? Yes, all big powers aim for it, but...there is a but: dominion first,then........... only then will we nurture the brickwall.

Hubert says:--"Dominion first,then........... only then will we nurture."

Is this what we are learning from the Ancients? Did labor unions learn this generations ago when they continually reminded themselves: "Negotiate from strength?"

Robby

I believe very strongly that the way we "nurture our brick walls" for the future is to teach our children to view the world with open hearts; to be inclusive about their neighbors and those who are different from themselves; to understand "differences" without necessarily accepting them for oneself, but also not to allow intimidation to creep in. To understand that diplomatic interaction can be expanded without turning to violence when the first attempt doesn't work - or work quickly enough. Youth who mature into leadership positions need to learn patience in many areas, backed up by firm economic and intellectual concepts and - as a last resort - a strong military presence that is visible to those who would take advantage of any perceived weakness. There is a strong need for intelligent leadership, backed by our technological intelligence capabilities and our willingness to use force as a last resort, but to use it wisely and forcefully.

Excellent goals, Mahlia. Is this what the Ancients have been teaching us by their behaviors?

Robby

Excellent goals, Mahlia, agreed! You say:".....and our willingness to use force as a last resort, but to use it wisely and forcefully."

That is speaking from a position of dominion, power, don't think it is a recent concept. Again: BUT, but there is the Other Side ........and history will repeat itself..... ( power corrupts)

Mahlia - That is exactly what should be done, but where does the 'passions of youth' fit in?.

To rationalize ideals with acquired knowledge, to draw lessons from history to improve on the past, is what the 'passionate youth' throws overboard in moments of anger, in greedy lust for wealth, in jealous love of a woman, in ambitions to build an alliance, a dynasty showing off their military might.

The pssions of youth is what started wars most of the time in the past and the young want no advice from the wisdom of the aged to curb their passions. They want to push forward, risk their lives, die if need be for what stirs their emotion.

Perhaps it is what brought civilization forward. I am sorry to have to face that fact and to admit that I am somewhat helpless in changing the course of history by the small influence I have on people around me. The youth will push us aside and march forward.

I could well be wrong, but, frankly, I don't see too many youths involved as decision-makers as heads of state or in high-ranking military positions in what's going on in the Near and Middle East right now. The youths are out there facing being killed because somebody higher up told them that's where they had to go. I doubt very much if any of the young people who volunteered for military service in the United States ever thought they'd be involved in a war in Afghanistan.

At least that's how I see it in this moment of history.

Mal

Dawn said a number of posts back: "I have been reading the comments and following links, printing some and bookmarking some. I find the discussion very interesting, but will continue to drink in the wisdom of others for now."

Egads! We're driving people to drink! (But it is well said.)

Linda Lovely

Wars may have been started by young leaders in ancient times but certainly not today. Passion comes into play during actual fighting conditions and in a situation where a country or group comes under attack but the decision to attack usually comes from those in a powerful position. I don't see too many young people in that situation today.

I haven't seen too much wisdom used by administrations today either.

In general, it is the men who instigate wars. Yahwey was one of them. However there have been some notable exceptions.I am thinking of Deborah, Jean d'Arc and Victoria. Among the men who start wars, the young are in the minority. Alexander is notable among young conquerors. In the majority are the fat "old men" who want to feel like young men again. So they say to the young,"go defend the colors" and we will give you medals to wear on your chest just like ours.

Judy's comment: " see one U.S. city, see them all" does not have to wait a thousand years to be meaningful. I have seen and worked in most U.S. cities over the past forty years and I have often been unable to tell one city from another. They are all so similar. I would awaken in a hotel in the morning and not know where I was until I looked at my calendar. Oh! It's Wednesday. This must be Des Moines. Now that the WTC is gone, New York looks more like many other big cities.

A thousand years from now, looking at New York, one might see the head of the statue of Liberty and the tops of tall buildings and project that New York was a matriarchal civilization with a penchant for flaming torches.

So Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. He needed every last one. David was similarly blessed. I have always felt that Uriah died in the front lines to provide David with a one night stand or possibly a week-end shack-up. David might have been one of the young men who instigate wars for a passion. The next time you credit the young men with starting war, Eloise, be sure to mention David. He has Biblical credibility.

Crossing tribal lines with district lines would encourage bicameral goverment- a local two house system. District one would be composed of Tribe A and part of Tribe B. Should one expect these tribes to mix well or should one expect Tribe B to get its butt kicked. In my area in the U.S. one of the parties in power gerrymandered the best state Senator we have ever had out of his seat by just such skulldugery.

Durant continues:--"Solomon announced his plans for a Temple, pledged to it great quantities of gold, silver, brass, iron, wood and precious stones from his own stores, and gently suggested that the Temple would welcome contributions from the citizens. The site chosen was on a hill. The walls of the Temple rose, like the Parthenon, continuously from the rocky slopes.
"The design was in the style that the Phoenicians had adopted from Egypt, with decorative ideas from Assyria and Babylon. The Temple was not a church, but a quadrangular enclosure composed of several buildings. The main structure was of modest dimensions - about one hundred and twenty-four feet in length, fifty-five in breadth, and fity-two in height, half the length of the Parthenon, a quarter of the length of Chartres.

"The Hebrews who came from all Judea to contribute to the Temple, and later to worship in it, forgivably looked upon it as one of the wonders of the world. They had not seen the immensely greater temples of Thebes, Babylon and Nineveh."

"Aren't most of us caught up with the size and scope of our own local "monuments?" -- The Twin Towers? The Lincoln Memorial? The Golden Gate Bridge? The St. Louis Gateway Arch?

Where is that first Temple now? Where are the Twin Towers now? And this, too, shall pass away.

Robby

Here is ONE PERSPECTIVE of the First Temple built by King Solomon.

Robby

Here is ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE of the First Temple built by Solomon. Some beautiful pictures here. And move on through the following Links.

Robby

Here is a THIRD PERSPECTIVE of the building of the First Temple by Solomon.

Robby

MAL - perhaps I should have written "youths who mature into leadership positions AS ADULTS." Certainly there are no youth making leadership decisions now, but in their future, when they have been trained and prepared for their professional responsibilities, many will remember the lessons learned (or not) in their Youth. Hence, my point in the earlier post was that we of the current generation can do quite a bit to foster a better understanding for those of the younger generation who will one day assume leadership roles.

ELOISE - with respect, I disagree with you in the sense that you CAN make a difference in the lives of young people if you care to. An adult can do so with understanding and the willigness to take the time and patience to engage someone much younger. Interactions with your own grandchildren or those in your neighborhood or whom you come into contact with are great learning opportunities - for them and you, too. Parents and grandparents may have certain obstacles with their own younger relatives, but that certainly shouldn't prevent anyone from trying or succeeding with those outside of their own family.

In reference to an earlier comment about the young people who volunteered for the military NOT knowing they would be engaging in a war, may I respond that in recent years ALL volunteers to ALL branches of the US military have been well informed about their responsibilities if the USA is called to war; to participate in a conflict without a full declaration of war; or if called upon to protect the interests of their country and its citizens. I have worked extensively with young men and women of the military (in all branches)and although many may not be as well versed in world events as one would like (which is actually fairly common throughout American society for people of many ages, not just youth), they do know that when they agree to join the US military, they are making an adult commitment to "serve their country" and what that entails. I've sat in on briefings with new members of the military where these issues are stressed, discussed in detail and plenty of time is allotted for questions.

These young men and women may not have known that the terrorist bases in Afghanistan and the response to Sept. 11th would draw them into a military response, just as the flight crew of the American plane which was struck by the Chinese fighter pilot last year did not know they would be embroiled in a an "event" with China. But they responded to their training and conducted themselves accordingly. I don't believe (from my own experience with the military) that the men and women who serve really care very much WHERE they are called to serve. They simply know that "if called, I will serve my country." It's really that simple.

JUSTIN - From my own reading on the topic of Solomon, I've alwyas considered that his numerous wives not only served his lust, but also brokered good relations with entities which he conquered or planned to conquer or with whom he wanted to develop strategic relations. Hence, Solomon (Suleyman in Arabic and Persian literature) seemed to me to be a Statesman with diplomatic concerns to uphold. Concubines are something else altogether, as we see among the ancient Chinese dynasties.

In an earlier post (which I'm just catching up with), someone mentioned polygamy again in the ancient period. Although it was traditionally accepted and carried over into Islam in the 7th century, the purpose is not so much one of lust, but of divising a way in which women who were left as widows could be protected and they and their children raised in safety. We do not have this custom in our time, thus it seems peculiar and somehow wrong. However, given the huge numbers of men killed in war during the periods we have read about, it makes sense, especially to the otherwise destitute women and their children.

Reading carefully is very important in this medium, and I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to misinterpreting posts or skimming through them. What I said in Post #616, Mahlia, was "I doubt very much if any of the young people who volunteered for military service in the United States ever thought they'd be involved in a war in Afghanistan." I said nothing about volunteers being uninformed about why they were in military service or what they might be facing. I also posted a link in Post #590 to the same Solomon's temple site that Robby did in his Post #624.

In my travels I've run across two men in this country who were married to two women at the same time. Each man thought he was doing the second wife a favor. As it turned out, neither man was able to support even one family very well, and they both got in trouble with the law because of that fact.

Mal

I think you have a good understanding of the military mind- particularly the enlisted mind. In my experience, they are not very interested in foreign relations and U.S. policy. That is someone else's job. Their job is to go where sent and to follow orders and that's all, and that is clearly understood. No bull, as we used to say. I suppose, that training in complex jobs is a lot more intensive today, than it used to be. We didn't have to know much more than some basic maneuvers, how to keep our gear in working order in difficult environments, some technical knowledge about one's particular specialty, how to keep your head up in a fire fight and your butt down when the mail is incoming. I am quite sure the typical enlisted man or field grade officer for that matter, had no idea that Afghanistan was his next field assignment, but no matter, it could have been Iraq or Iran or Somalia or Haiti. It would have made no difference at all in the American military response. Obedience to orders is a given.

I misread your 616. You doubted the military volunteer ever thought he or she would be involved in a war in afghanistan. It was not Afghanistan you were thinking about but a WAR in Afghanistan. You thought the military volunteers were not thinking they would be in a war when they enlisted. Perhaps you thought they expected four easy years and some GI college credits at the end. I think, in the main, they bought the military idea and were prepared to accept whatever came with it. War could break out at anytime while one is in the military and many are pleased when it happens because then their training has some meaning. They are useful, not just a grunt carrying a rifle. Many of these kids are quite gung-ho. And don't forget the admiration of the ladies.

Robbie; I reread your 622 on monuments and offer again the vision of New York with only the head of the Statue of Liberty exposed. One might well think we were a matriarchal civilization with a penchant for burning torches. Many other half exposed sites might lead to interesting speculation about our society. An equestrian statue might suggest we traveled by horseback. A dig through our land fills as is common on archeological sites might reveal lots of interesting things about us. Empty coke cans and whiskey bottles could be interpreted as the pleasure implements of a fun loving people. It's just a fun thought, nothing serious..

Justin:

I give up.

Sleepless in NC.

What do you suppose the men in power in times past talked about when they gathered at each other's homes to wine and dine and be entertained? They talked about enlarging the present campaign to acquire "area" (or how to solidify their present positions) or they talked about the next campaign for "area". The only notice these men took of "the people" was to note the health and number of their soldiers. "The people" were simply sources of tribute. It was also a topic of conversation as to whether "the people" were healthly, and in sufficent numbers to build, craft, and grow food. "The people" were property. If they were not in rebellion, all was well.

That so many of the rulers were young is simply that folks didn't, usually, live all that long back then. In fact, longevity is a very modern thing.

HOWZAT

about the difference between writers who focus on research for detail and those who apply the subject to their lives as they are living them. I think I belong to the second group. There is a humungous amount of information here resulting from many of you who like the research. I find bits of it setting me off, leading me to consider applications that I can enjoy experensiously (spelling). It makes me consider the world as I know it in different ways. This is an extraordinary CLASS I'm taking. Thankyou all so much.

Claire

Claire:--I know that every now and then I get picky. We do not have a "class" here but a group of amiable folks gathered in the Senior Net living room and discussing "how things used to be." We have no time schedule, no assignments, no credits, no homework -- we get up to go to the bathroom whenever we want, we skip a day if we wish (although most people don't seem to be doing that), and there is no rowdyness.

We are having FUN!!

Robby

"That so many of the rulers were young is simply that folks didn't, usually live all that long back then. In fact, longevity is a very modern thing. HOWZAT"

Exactly my point. Up to the 20th century longevity was between 50 and 60. The 'the passion of youth' is not reserved to the 20 something and I am sorry that I was so misunderstood. My fault. Ben Laden, Napoleon, Hitler, Saddam Hussein did not start war rationally. They let their passions rule. In a Democracy it is less likely to happen because the President is not alone in the decision making process.

Mahlia described perfectly well all the qualities every leader in every country should have. I just don't see them demonstrated in history except during short periods of peace.

Robby will surely lead us back on the right track now.

Eloïse

"Having established his kingdom, Solomon settled down to enjoy it. As his reign proceeded, he paid less and less attention to religion and frequented his harem rather more than the Temple. The Biblical chroniclers reproach him bitterly for his gallantry in building altars to the exotic deities of his foreign wives, and cannot forgive his philosophical -- or perhaps political -- impartiality to the gods. The people admired his wisdom but suspected in it a certain centripetal quality. The Temple and the palace had cost them much gold and blood, and were not more popular with them than the Pyramids had been with the workingmen of Egypt.

"The upkeep of these establishments required considerable taxation, and few governments have made taxation popular. When he died, Israel was exhausted, and a discontented proletariat had been created whose labor found no steady employment, and whose sufferings were to transform the warlike cult of Yahveh into the almost socialistic religion of the prophets."

Our readings of previous reigns indicated to us that the kings were always paying attention to the priests -- doing so primarily for their own welfare. Now Solomon doesn't seem to care what the people think about his attitude toward religion. Just what is going on here?

And what happens after his death? Massive unemployment. Without our getting into comments on any current-day political figures, what has history (modern or ancient) told us happens when there is massive unemployment. Was Robert Kaplan right that nothing is happening in modern times that didn't happen in ancient times? Can we learn from Solomon's time?

Your comments, please.

Robby

Flavius Josephus has much to say about King Solomon in Book VIII of Antiquities of the Jews. If you take the time to read this page (and it takes awhile), you will see how much of what Solomon did was for political reasons.

Flavius Josephus says that Solomon died at the age of 94, 80 of which he had been ruler of the Jews. Perhaps when he was in his dotage, he should have been replaced, thus saving his kingdom from the various serious problems which arose. Monarchies replace monarchs only at the time of their deaths. Democracies are very different when it comes to this sort of thing, aren't they?

What happens in times of massive unemployment? People starve and turn against their governmental leaders. The state is ripe for anarchy or decay. Remember the Great Depression here? I wasn't old enough to comprehend what was going on except for experiencing hunger, want and need, but know for sure Hoover was not re-elected.

Mal

Here is a link to BBC's information on multinational digs focused on Bilquis in the Marib region of Yemen. IMO, explorations farther East into Mesopotamia (Iraq) would focus on the trade routes from Sheba, rather than on the soverign and the location of her capital city.

SWN:

If you check the Bibliography on Page 945 of Our Oriental Heritage, you'll discover that Will and Ariel Durant researched a great deal more than the Bible and the Qur'an when they wrote this book.

Mal

Mahlia says":....the purpose is not so much one of lust, but of divising a way in which women who were left as widows could be protected and they and their children raised in safety...."

Well, bless the Sultan's heart.

From Robby:"..."Having established his kingdom, Solomon settled down to enjoy it. As his reign proceeded, he paid less and less attention to religion and frequented his harem rather more than the Temple...."

me too. I never take classes for credit and so treat them pretty much as you describe our "unclass" to be. How about "symposium" Whenever I'm where I can learn a lot by listening and participating from others I feel like I'm in a CLASS. now lets discuss that? Hey did these people have schools that were like ours or was their learning taught on the job or one on one. I imagine the religious matters were taught in groups...

Claire

Claire:--The Jewish method of education will be discussed not too long from now.

Robby

talk about run-on sentences. . . . Flavius Josephus style makes reading difficult. There's no time to breathe. Of course the myths were often written that way too, trying to get all the related facts of geneology etc in with the story. And then there was James Joyce and Portrait, beautiful but hard to read for the same reason.

Writing style changes as well as everything else doesn't it.

Claire

As shown in the new GREEN quotes above, Durant moves on toward the Jews beginning to worship only one god.

"The Temple not only gave Yahveh a home, but it gave Judea a spiritual center and capital, a vehicle of tradition, a memory to serve as a pillar of fire through centuries of wandering over the earth. And it played its part in lifting the Hebrew religion from a primitive polytheism to a faith intense and intolerant, but none the less one of the creative creeds of history.

"As they entered the historic scene, the Jews were nomad Bedouins who feared the djinns of the air, and worshiped rocks, cattle, sheep, and the spirits of caves and hills. The cult of the bull, the sheep and the lamb was not neglected. Moses could never quite win his flock from adoration of the Golden Calf, for the Egyptian worship of the bull was still fresh in their memories, and Yahveh was for a long time symbolized in that forocious vegetarian.

"In Exodus (xxxii, 25-28) we read how the Jews indulged in a naked dance before the Golden Calf, and how Moses and the Levites -- or priestly class - slew three thousand of them in punishment of their idolatry. Of serpent worship there are countless traces in early Jewish history, from the serpent images found in the oldest ruins, to the brazen serpent made by Moses and worshiped in the Temple until the time of Hezekiah (ca. 720 B.C). As among so many peoples, the snake seemed sacred to the Jews, partly as a phallic symbol of virility, partly as typifying wisdom, subtlety, and eternity -- literally because of its ability to make both ends meet."

I find myself with usual question in my mind -- were the Jews at that time primitive or civilized?

Robby

ROBBY - in whose perception? Theirs or ours?

Mahlia:--A good question. Do we consider ourselves civilized?

Robby

I think each region/religion secretly(sometimes not so secretly)believe they are the MOST civilized.
Personally, I think of civilized people being able to treat the human species and the animal species with equal dignity and regard. Our culture/society may sometimes go too far...treating pets as though they are human. Other cultures/societies treat animals in negligent/ often cruel manner.

It may seem like an over simplification to judge civilization on the treatment of animals, but this is how I see it. If one has no regard for the lower forms of life, can they have respect for life?

Massive unemployment eventually leads to war. Between WW1 and WW11 a world wide depression occurred and in Germany it was very deep, said a lady friend who was raised in Germany at that time, they were so poor, they used worthless Marks for wallpaper and fuel.

Prosperity and world domination was promised by a young brash passionate politician, Hitler. Young men flocked to join the army where they were clothed, housed, fed and supplied with Arian females to produce Arian babies who, in a few short years, would become Nazi soldiers.

Nothing should be spared to help bring poor nations out of poverty. There is so much poverty in the world that it is becoming a bomb about ready to explode. We saw a sample of the extent of anger on September llth.

Hi, Pat! Nice to have you visiting us from Arizona. You say:--"It may seem like an over simplification to judge civilization on the treatment of animals, but this is how I see it."

A most interesting thought I don't believe I have seen it here before. Nor do I remember any comments by anyone (including me) about pets owned by Primitive Man or any of the Ancient Civilizations.

Any reactions to this suggestion?

Robby

Eloise:--Do you recall in any of the Ancient Civilizations cases of massive unemployment leading to war?

Robby

Robby, I believe wolf/dog and human relationships began to form when dog/wolf smelling something good cooking over the fire. Sometimes there were even tasty bones tossed aside. They became territorial at spots where food was available...barking/growling at intruders/other animals. Thus, the primitave man/woman began to regard them as useful...keeping other predators away.

Off to a function here at our community. TTYL, Pat

Was the degree of civilization among the Jews at the time of the first temple sufficient to say,"Yes, the jews were civilized at that time. This is a relative issue. Certainly the Jews were civilized at that time. The four elements of civilization: Government, Economic, Morality, and Cultural activity were present in the society. So they were civilized.

The issue in this section that captured me is that God is given a character to suit the needs of the people. At the time of the first temple and the divided government that followed The people were barbaric and there fore deserved and needed a God who would punish them with death and destruction. Later, when conditions were more stable, the God became more redemptive and less vindictive. At the time of the first temple, the dead resided in a black underground with no hope of redemption from sin.The priests of the time made sin available to everyone in abundance and at same time provided the means to make adjustment by sacrifice and contribution. Though frowned upon by the Levites, the people put their children "through the fire" and danced naked around Baal. I think the popularity of the first temple may have diminished the waywardness and idolatry of the people.

Justin, you say:--"The priests of the time made sin available to everyone in abundance and at same time provided the means to make adjustment by sacrifice and contribution. I think the popularity of the first temple may have diminished the waywardness and idolatry of the people."

Justin, would you please expand a bit on a couple of your terms? For example, "made sin available" and "popularity of the First Temple?"

Robby

In ancient times, before Democracy was instituted in Greece, if I recall, slavery was a sort of employment because there were fed and clothed. The same thing for soldiers as long as they were all in good physical health and able to do their job. If those had been left to roam in search for food and shelter, they would have been a threat to the rulers of the country. Recognizing that, rulers made sure young men were not left idle.

In the past if a person was not useful for something or someone, they died at a very young age from war or from disease. Today we live a long time and expect to be fed and clothed and cared for even if we no longer work. That is a heavy burden for governments to carry. Taxes and Social Security are there to fill in the gap because if they fail in doing that there will be war.

Eloïse

"The central idea in Judaic theology was that of sin." Quote from the green sentences above. This is certainly news to me. I have talked to several people who were brought up in observant Christian homes where sin was a important subject and they tended to think that Judaism had the same emphasis as they couldn't imagine a religion without it. I even had someone tell me that the Jewish way of life was Jewish reaction to the anti-Christ. I finally had to ask what the anti-Christ was. I had never heard of it.

I'm not aware of sin being the subject Durant suggests it is. I would say the emphasis is on praising and worshipping God. Surely building a huge temple shows how sincere the Jews were in this endeavour. Sin is so negative. Praise is so positive. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

Did anyone else have a small article in the paper today about the horrible death of King Herod. He had kidney failure, a severe itching that resulted in gangrene in his genital area and some other ailments. Doctors often try to analyze medical problems from descriptions written at the time and in analyzing Joshephus'writing about Herod, this was the conclusion. The article suggested that some of his meanness was the result of his extreme discomfort and he died a horrible, painful death.

Democracy in Greece was only for citizens. The same for voting. Only citizens could vote.

These two Chinese poems I think give as an idea of what any soldier must have thought and felt regardless his time in history. The first poem was copied in 624 A.D. and already considered old.

AN OLD AIR
There once was a man, sent on military missions,
A wanderer, from youth, on the You and Yan frontiers.
Under the horses' hoofs he would meet his foes
And, recklessly risking his seven-foot body,
Would slay whoever dared confront
Those moustaches that bristled like porcupinequills.
...There were dark clouds below the hills, there were white
clouds above them,
But before a man has served full time, how can he go back?
In eastern Liao a girl was waiting, a girl of fifteen years,
Deft with a guitar, expert in dance and song.
...She seems to be fluting, even now, a reed-song of home,
Filling every soldier's eyes with homesick tears.

this one written some time between 624 and 710A.D.

BOTH SIDES OF THE YELLOW RIVER RECAPTURED BY THE IMPERIAL ARMY
News at this far western station! The north has been recaptured!
At first I cannot check the tears from pouring on my coat
--
Where is my wife? Where are my sons?
Yet crazily sure of finding them, I pack my books and poems- -
And loud my song and deep my drink
On the green spring-day that starts me home,
Back from this mountain, past another mountain,
Up from the south, north again-to my own town!

If an economic system gives the highest share of wealth to the ruling class, and too little is left to the mass of producers to purchase the goods that they need to exist on, then you have created a mass of unemployed and you have created a dangerous situation. You in turn must have foreign markets. How to get those foreign markets? Hitler did not rise on his own. It was the established wealth of Europe who put him in power. I wonder if it was the same in Judea and other civilizations?

Another question. Was it true that early Jewish religion had no concept of a heaven?

I think I said "the priests made sin available". Sin, as I understand it, is a creation of the priests.The Mosaic Laws are an example of opportunities to sin. The first commandment is an example. Jews were constantly cursed by Yahwey for idolatry. The people were frequently punished for their sinful ways. The more things that are labeled sinful the more opportunity the people have to sin and as a result the priests sell more amulets and indulgences. This comment applies more to a later time period when the concept of redemption was more prominent- after the first Isaiah. In the period before the first temple, I think priests sold amulets more to allay fears than to redeem sin.

You ask me to expand on the "popularity" of the first temple. The first temple, in it's creation and in it's completion ,was a success in the sense that it unified the people in an expression of theology.People came from all over to see the new temple and to sacrifice there. It was a source of pride to a people who had not seen the larger temples at Nineveh etc. Durant says," the building of the temple was the most important event in the epic of the Jews." The effect of the temple on the Jews must have been sufficient to pull many of them away from idolatry.

I think Durant says the early Jews had no concept of Hell. They all went to a dark place in the earth. If no hell, then no heaven. The idea of redemption came along later.

I think the central idea in David's and Solomon's time was to do unto others as they do unto you. Survival and PYA were upper most in the minds of these guys. They knocked off all competition at the start of their reigns. After the death of Solomon and the establishment of the divided kingdoms the Jews attacked one another. Eight tribes against two. The two tribes of Judah brought in the Assyrians and finished off the eight.

Justin says:--"The early Jews had no concept of Hell. They all went to a dark place in the earth. If no hell, then no heaven. The idea of redemption came along later."

I remember that earlier comment. But, if I remember properly (correct me anyone), this dark place where everyone went was full of misery regardless of how good they were on earth. Just what is Hell? Is it not a place of misery? And didn't that, therefore, mean that the earlier belief was that there was a Hell without a Heaven?

Robby

"Baal, symbolized in conical upright stones much like the linga of the Hindus, was venerated by some of the Hebrews as the male principle of reproduction, the husband of the land that he fertilized. Just as primitive polytheism survived in the worship of angels and saints, and in the teraphim, or portable idols, that served as household gods, so the magical notions rife in the early cults persisted to a late day despite the protests of prophets and priests.

"The people seem to have looked upon Moses and Aaron as magicians, and to have patronized professional diviners and sorcerers. Divination was sought at times by shaking dice (Urim and Thummim) out of a box (ephod) -- a ritual still used to ascertain the will of the gods. It is to the credit of the priests that they opposed these practices, and preached an exclusive reliance on the magic of sacrifice, prayer and contributions."

Those of us who have been in this forum since the beginning may remember the importance of magic in the lives of Primitive Man and earlier civilizations such as Sumeria. It appears that magic continued to exist in later "civilized" cultures such as Judea.

Without our proselytizing for or against any current religion, any examples of what you see as "magic" in today's religions? How about outside of any "religion" per se? Any examples of our using "magic" to make good things happen to us and bad things stay away?

Robby

Arthur C. Clark said that any sufficiently advanced technology (for example, electric lights) is perceived by the scientifically naive as magic. I don't really understand electricity; is it magic when I throw a switch and get not only light, but heat and cooling at need? I also believe that all today's religions (at least the ones with which I am familiar) still have some remnants of supernatural beliefs that could be considered magic.

SWN says:--"I also believe that all today's religions (at least the ones with which I am familiar) still have some remnants of supernatural beliefs that could be considered magic."

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

The central element in Moses' ten commandments is LOVE.

Discussions on faith only leads to bad feelings and that is not love, so it's better to remain silent than to argue. Either we believe or we don't. From there on it's between us and God. In my opinion nobody is unbiased, especially Durant.

Eloise says:--"In my opinion nobody is unbiased, especially Durant."

I agree completely that everyone has his/her own bias, including Durant. This is why we go through his Volume in detail but also examine Links to other sources as well as trade ideas among ourselves.

As for the ten commandments, a bit later in this section on Judea, Durant examines each of the commandments in detail.

Robby

1 - A concept that has recently come up is "sin".
2 - While discussing various Civilizations in this forum, we have from time to time asked what it is to be "civilized."
I have recently come across what I consider a MARVELOUS ARTICLE which may stimulate some discussion on these two topics. I would be very interested in your reactions to the thoughts expressed in this article.
Please let us know, after reading it, what you see as the difference (if any) between Primitive and Civilized Man.

Robby

Will and Ariel Durant were biased toward a scientific approach to research. Their work, The Story of Civilization, is only a threat to any person's beliefs if that person allows it to be through very personal interpretation, in my opinion.

Mal

It appears to me that magic occurs in the mind. We look at something we don't understand or can't see like the process that creates electricity, which someone mentioned here, and determine that it's magic.

Having said that, I'll go on to say that every religion that exists today contains some type of magic. I'd like to back up that statement with some sort of specific example from various religions, but since that would perhaps offend some people, I'll only use the religion to which I once belonged.

The Universalist-Unitarian religion teaches that all people on earth are equal, and there is a "brotherhood of man". In reality, there isn't, but a congregation in a UU fellowship or church consists of people of every race and people who come to it from many other different kinds of religions. That being the case, there is the illusion at services and meetings that there truly is the unity of human beings which is so devoutly desired by that particular religion. That's magic, as far as I am concerned. It feels good, but when you open the door and go out on the street, you're forced to realize this magic doesn't exist in the real world.

The way the Jews came to believe in one God interests me. Durant says:

"Yahveh was not the only god whose existence was recognized by the Jews, or by himself; all that he asked, in the First Commandment, was that he should be placed above the rest. 'I am a jealous god,' he confesses, and he bids his followers 'utterly overthrow' his rivals, and 'quite break down their images.' "

Thus the Jews went from the polytheism of the past to monotheism. Durant says that "a sense of human nothingness before an arbitrary deity darkened all Jewish thought." This is similar, but not really like, the way one feels when he or she considers how insignificant they are in the face of the cosmos and nature. This idea can either make a person exalt in the power and beauty of nature, or become depressed by the fact of his or her insignificance.

Punishment as altruism? The Ten Commandments to me are codes of behavior, perhaps stated with love, but which have the implication that if people go against these "Thou shalt nots", they will be punished. This makes me wonder if religion, at least in part, does not serve the purpose of gaining the cooperation of the masses, as punishment does, according to the article Robby posted. This makes me wonder, too, if religion serves more than one purpose - to provide nurturing for the spirit and to keep us much less than perfect human beings in line when it comes to our behavior.

Mal

IMHO, I think only those either "too easily swayed by a persuasive arguement" or those "too close minded to be consider other options" feel threatened by religious or political discussions. The "in betweeners" understand that there are admirable facets in addition to faults in every religion and political belief. The trick is being able to seperate the good from the bad, and come up with the most "ideal" religion or political belief. When someone can do that, and get a consensus of opinion on those two subjects, I see a Nobel Prize in their future. Until then, I too refrain from any discussion about religion or politics.

Mal: "This makes me wonder, too, if religion serves more than one purpose - to provide nurturing for the spirit and to keep us much less than perfect human beings in line when it comes to our behavior."

Well said! I totally agree.

MaryWZ

Pat, I understand what your concern when you say:--"I refrain from any discussion about religion or politics."

When this discussion group began, however, we accepted the fact that every civilization had (or has) some form of religion so that it would be impossible not to speak of it and truly examine each religion. So we agreed not to proselytize.

For those who are comparatively new to this forum, I will re-print Post No. 2 which was given back in early November.

Robby

This is a re-print of Post No. 2 --

"To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

Robby

Those are great guidelines Robby.
I find subjects of religion and politics really very interesting, that's why I mostly lurk and read. This forum is much more to my liking than textbook study of the subjects(which I readily admit, I have not done much of.) That, quite honestly is probably the main reason I don't do much more than lurk...lack of knowledge

The discussion is well run, and I am learning, thanks to you and the learned group of people that share their knowledge.

Robby, re. your post # 666, regarding magic. Vow, what a coincidence # 666.

You probably are familiar with J G Frazer's work 'The Golden Bough', in comes in a condensed form, about 950 pages.

"Hence in order to understand the evolution of the kingship and the sacred character with which the office has commonly been invested in the eyes of savage or barbarous peoples, it is essential to have some acquaintance with the principles of magic and to form some conception of the extraordinary hold which that ancient system of superstition has had on the human mind in all ages and all countries."

To go into it here would take us away from the present topic. But I would recommend it to anybody as a supplement to any literature that delves into the past.

Beginning at 1:40 p.m. ET today, Sunday, an author is going to discuss his book, Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands Pagan Ethics. Sorry for the short notice, but maybe they'll rerun it.

MaryWZ

Thank you, Mary. In addition to the supplements of Links, related TV programs are also helpful in this forum.

Robby

Robby: that article you linked us to was in this morning's paper. I've also participated in a group game where the goal was to build a community that served everyone. People forgot to allow land for schools and public facilities but built nice neighbourhoods for themselves. I think this is human nature. However, the top guys at Enron appeared to know the company was sinking fast and bailed out. If no laws were broken, their actions were still unconscionable.

The notion of heaven in the Jewish religion dates from about 200 BCE. Rabbis and poor people noticed that the rich had wonderful lives although they weren't particulary religious and the poor were religious and had difficult lives. The rabbis came up with a concept of reward in a later life. The place where dead Jewish souls go is Gehenna and even the most evil person does not stay there longer than a year before going to heaven. When a person says the prayer of mourning, the Kaddish, it is only for eleven months because no one believes that their dear departed ones would be in Gehenna for a year. That being said, there is little discussion about the afterlife. The emphasis is on the life one lives and trying to be as good as possible.

I hope my comments are not interpreted as trying to impose my religion on others. I am only trying to clarify.

I agree with Eloise one either has a belief or rejects the theory of a higher power. Therefore I never discuss the subject unless someone asks.

Carolyn

Very enlightening, Sharon. Thank you.

Robby

Just dropping in to compliment you all on the depth of discussion here, the information alone on Solomon's Temple in posts 623, 624, and 625 is incredible.

As the text says, even though it's spelled out clearly in the Bible, it's very difficult to picture, I had long tried to picture it in vain, and I was glad to see that no model actually has existed, and enjoyed reading the information, not too sure on the Ramses II/ Solomon link, had not heard that one and am not sure, but it's really neat to be in on the cutting edge stuff and to see the depiction, many thanks!

ginny

Nice to have a visit from our Books & Literature Host who has MANY MANY discussion groups to oversee. Come see us any time, Ginny!!

Robby

". . .there is little discussion about the afterlife. The emphasis is on the life one lives and trying to be as good as possible."

May I add to Sharon's comment that it is the same in Islam, except for those radical elements which we hear so much about in reference to "Jihad" and immediate entrance to Paradise (Heaven). Most Muslims focus on doing good things for others and worshiping God while alive, rather than dwelling on an afterlife. It is not common to discuss death (and in some cases absolutely is not done at all) or after the mourning period to refer to the deceased very often. They are considered "to be with God."

Many posts ago, someone mentioned their understanding of the central focus of Judiasm. The training that I received from the Jewish members of my paternal family focused on worshipping God in daily life and helping others. Since these wonderful people were Persian, there was much commentary on the ancient period (to which they looked for encouragement)and discussion about customs in those days. Thus my interest in what we have been reading was begun early in life.

"The Jewish members of my paternal family focused on worshipping God in daily life and helping others. These wonderful people were Persian."

So if I'm understanding that correctly, Mahlia, that part of your family were Jews living in Iran. Were Jews in Iran a small minority?

Robby

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." Equals we have not yet achieved it. Does any one truly need to be reminded about what is going on, and has been going on, in the world.

America was fairly isolated until Oklahoma and 11 September.

"Yahveh" is Christian not Jewish.

Judiasm has more than 600 commandments.

Christianity is the "father" of "SIN."

Abraham had two sons. Isiach and Ismael.

Islam was born from Judiasm and Christianity. It's the most populist religion in the world.

Notice the little things: The disappearance of Judean-Christian Ethic, etc.

Is this site just to discuss one book and its philosophy? If so, because I happen to think it's misguided, count me out.

All I could offer is the MANY things I disagree with and why.

Carla, in answer to your question: Is this site just to discuss one book and its philosophy?", please note the following quote taken from the Heading above.

"In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals."

Also please note that while we are regularly referring to Durant's appraisals, we have in no way tied ourselves to him. For example:
1 - Posts like yours which disagree with Durant are posted.
2 - Links to other sources (such as other books and/or articles) are regularly posted.
3 - Constant back-and-forth discussion goes on in which Durant's comments are evaluated in detail.

This is similar to our previous discussion on "Democracy in America." For 13 months we held back-and-forth discussions about deTocqueville's book, referring to it regularly, but not always agreeing with the author.
We value the information you bring to this forum. Many of us would not know these items if you (or others) did not bring them to our attention. And if, at times, we disagree we always follow our guidelines of "disagreeing in an agreeable way."
Carla, you add:--"All I could offer is the MANY things I disagree with and why."These, of course, are part of our discussions but are you saying there is nothing here with which you agree?
Robby

Don't go away. I welcome your knowledge-all of it. Let me challenge some things you offer us. Yahveh is the God of the Pentateuch, of the Torah. Is he not? Sin is the failure to adhere to the six hundred commandments. Is it not? Certainly Christianity expanded the idea of sin by offering absolution and redemption.

Magic and superstition are essential in religious ritual. However there is a difference in the way magic is presented in religious ceremony and what one sees in an ordinary magic act. In a magic act the magician diverts one's attention to create an illusion. In religious ceremony, one is asked to accept a change, or an alteration of reality on "faith". In one of the most sacred areas of Catholic ceremony, the faithful accept the concept of transubstantiation. It is a change from bread and water, as if by magic, to the Body and Blood of Christ. There are many other examples but this one is particularly prominant. It stems from the passover supper, better known perhaps as the "Last Supper" in which Christ says to his diciples," Do this in commemoration of me".

It is hard to believe 300+ posts have been made since I wrote my own last post. I will try to cover some of those but think I will just jump in where we are now.

Robby I read your link and found it very interesting and enlightening.

Mal made a statement that I found also interesting and one you commented on.

Whether you believe it was God who gave us the 10 commandments or not I always thought ( well not always but as I have grown older my opinions are not as strong in some areas) that whoever gave them was a wise person. Someone who observed that certain behaviors were counterproductive to society as a whole.

If you steal, if you covet, if you kill someone, if you commit adultry, the admonition not to accuse anyone falsely, you are going to hurt society. You will be happier and more content and everyone will benefit if you follow those guidelines. And we have enough laws on the books to try and prevent each of those.

In some ways I think of my family, my parents and then my own children. We were made to take responsibity for our actions. Our parents and I hope I was a beneficient parent meted out punishment when we disobeyed. Not by corporal punishment but a sort of matter of fact momentary withdrawal of thier approval Their were nine of us in that household and to make it work we had to be considerate of every one.

Society as whole is the same. And laws tell us you will suffer if you dont obey.So a wise person observed what worked and put it in a form that was easy to understand. I wont debate whether or not it was God that spoke or some wisdom in Moses that felt this was what God said.

In my own life I have tried to follow a way it which I wish to be fair to everyone. If I dont I suffer. Not because God makes me suffer but because there is something in me that hurts when I have been unfair to anyone.

Now Robby what page or we on? Or have I missed that information?

anna

Gee, Carla, give us a break! That's like saying to me, "You hurt my feelings, and I'm not going to tell you why." What, are we supposed to guess what you think is wrong with this discussion?

You might feel differently about things if you had Volume I, Our Oriental Heritage, of Will and Ariel Durant's Story of Civilization. There are 11 volumes in this work.

I hope your vision problem is not giving you as many problems as it was the last time you sent me an email, Carla. My heart goes out to you and Sea Bubble and everyone in Israel today.

Mal

Anna, we are currently on Page 310. Don't stay away so long next time!

Robby

Magic to make a bad thing stay away can be found, I think, in blessings. The feast of Saint Blaise is a good example. A priest blesses the throat on that day by placing crossed wax candles on either side of the throat and expressing the words of the blessing. The blessing serves to prevent sore throat during the winter.

"Slowly the conception of Yahveh as the one national god took form, and gave to Jewish faith a unity and simplicity lifted up above the chaotic multiplicity of the Mesopotamian pantheons. Apparently the conquering Jews took one of the gods of Canaan, "Yahu", and re-created him in their own image as a stern warlike "stiff-necked" deity, with almost lovable limitations. For this god makes no claim to omniscience. He asks the Jews to identify their homes by sprinkling them with the blood of the sacrificial lamb, lest he should destroy their children inadvertently along with the first-born of the Egyptians. He is not above making mistakes, of which man is his worst. He regrets, too late, that he created Adam, or allowed Saul to become king.
"He is, now and then, greedy, irascible, bloodthirsty, capricious, petulant:--'I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy to whom I will show mercy.'--He approves Jacob's use of deceit in revenging himself upon Laban. His conscience is as flexible as that of a bishop in politics. He is talkative, and likes to make long speeches. But he is shy, and will not allow men to see anything of him but his hind parts.

"Never was there so thoroughly human a god."

Comments, please?

Robby

CARLA - how can you pass up such a great opportunity to share your thoughts and wisdom? We all have different backgrounds and may interpret our reading in Duran's Oriental Heritage in quite different ways. Come, join us, and SHARE your thoughts; whether you argee with anyone or not is really immaterial in this discussion. However, if you feel uncomfortable here, then we will respect that also. But you are most welcome.

ROBBY - yes the Jews in my paternal family were Persians living in Iran. At one time, there was a fairly large Jewish presence in Iran, but no longer. In the ancient period, the Jews worked side-by-side in the Court as scribes, managers, traders, scholars, scientists, medical doctors, teachers, interpreters (Persian was a Court language for many years as we have read about elsewhere). Many of the Jews of Iran and Iraq (especially members of the the Baghdad Sassoon family) were influential businessmen and members of the Chinese Court in the ancient dynasties. Their multilingual skills, management abilities and keen trading background were highly valued. They still have a strong presence in the banking tongs of Hong Kong.

I was raised in a contemporary reform jewish home. The word SIN was never used at all. There were observances and rules but I don't remember anyone mentioning SIN except in connection with christianity's ORIGINAL SIN. Of course I wasn't paying much attention.

Claire

P.S. Priests were rabies , interpretors of the torah and teachers. and a temple wasn't necessary for study of the torah (the law), only a group of ten (men??? even then.)Are they the same thing?

I'm certainly learning a lot from this unclass however you choose to think of it. Although I've always thought that an emphasis on LEARNING was part of my jewish heritage. Thankyou Persian and others for your input.

Claire

Sin is wrong doing.It is failure to abide by the rules. Whether the rules are concerned with religious aspects or secular is not relevant (the ten Comandments include secular and religious rules). The more rules the more opportunity for wrong doing or breaching the rules. It matters little that one calls the breach a sin or simply recognizes a failure to comply. In Catholicism one is born with sin. The stain of original sin comes along with the birth. Absolution comes with Baptism. What happens if one doesn't get the kid in the water soon enough? He goes to a place called Limbo. Women who give birth in the Catholic Faith Must be "Churched" after delivery to ensure their return to purity. Carla said that Christianity is the "father of sin". I think this is what she had in mind.

It is my understanding that the word SIN comes from archery and it means "missing the mark" or the bulls eye.

SIN is also what the 21st letter of the Hebrew alphabet is called.

Mal

Sin is something attorney's hope you commit, so they can find loopholes to keep you from getting punished.LOL Is that not also the role of religious hierarchy?

"Sin" meaning "missing the mark" in archery? If there is, indeed, a connection, that is intriguing.

Robby

That is not a word I heard as a child. So it meant nothing to me then I guess it doesnt mean anything to me now..not it that term. My parents were from a strong Catholic family and a strong Methodist family. The first time I heard the word sin was when the priest said my parents had committed a sin by marrying outside the faith. Since I had no idea what the faith was I also didnt understand the word sin.

I laugh when I remember my childhood. My parents always recieved a calendar from one of the Catholic business men my father knew < although I only know this now as an adult. It had all these little graphics which later I learned were to mark fast and feast days in the Catholic church. Since there was a fish on Friday ( and my mother served it on Friday in deference to my Irish grandmother who lived with us) I had to grow up and leave home before I found out everyone didnt eat fish on Friday. It seemed to me just another way to mark events ..like Christmas, Memorial day etc ..now Robby I am going to open my book and read so the comments I make will have more sense.

ann

"Originally Yahveh seems to have been a god of thunder, dwelling in the hills, and worshiped for the same reason that the youthful Gorki was a believer when it thundered. The authors of the Pentateuch, to whom religion was an instrument of statesmanship, formed this vulcan into Mars, so that in their energetic hands Yahveh became predominatnly an imperialistic, expansionist God of Hosts, who fights for his people as fiercely as the gods of the Iliad.
"'The Lord is a man of war,' says Moses and David echoes him:--'He teacheth my hands to war.' Yahveh promises to 'destroy all the people to whom' the Jews 'shall come,' and to drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite and the Hittite 'by little and little' and he claims as his own all the territory conquered by the Jews.

"He will have no pacifist nonsense. He knows that even a Promised Land can be won, and held, only by the sword. He is a god of war because he has to be. It will take centuries of military defeat, political subjugation, and moral development, to transform him into the gentle and loving Father of Hillel and Christ."

Any comments here on transformations?

Robby

Durant continues with the personality of Yahveh:--"Yahveh is as vain as a soldier. He drinks up praise with a bottomless appetite, and he is anxious to display his prowess by drowning the Egyptians:--'They shall know that I am the Lord when I have gotten me honor upon Pharaoh.' To gain successes for his people he commits or commands brutalities as repugnant to our taste as they were acceptable to the morals of the age. He slaughters whole nations with the native pleasure of a Gulliver fighting for Lilliput.
"Because the Jews 'commit whoredom' with the daughters of Moab he bids Moses:--'Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun.' It is the morality of Ashurbanipal and Ashur.

"He offers to show mercy to those who love him and keep his commandments but he will punish children for the sins of their fathers, their grandfathers, even their great-great-grandfathers."

Further comments?

Robby

Click HERE for bits of information about Moab.

Robby

We continue to see the relationship between languages since Sin is also the name of the 12th letter in the Arabic alphabet.

If SINis missing "the mark" then, IMO, we all do miss the mark of perfection of what we could be..

For more than you really want to know about SIN check out this Link.

Robby

Well as a child I certainly did hear about sin, and almost everyday to it seemed I committed a sin of one kind or another. See, in my house it was a sin to talk back to parents, to covet a brothers marbels, to envy my sisters beauty, to take a sisters doll for a walk without permission, and it wasn't a deeply religious home either. But we were quoted the ten commandments often. We did go to Sunday School though parents didnt attend church as mother and father didnt agree on which church was authentic. I personally loved the magic,and the ritual of high church and it was one of the more beautiful things I experienced, like theater or going to the circus, to go to the Catholic church when we lived in the Valley and hear the wonderful latin and the choirs, the costumes, the incense etc. I can't even imagine growing up in America of the 20 and 30 without knowing all about sin. faith

Robby you were right that is more than I wished to know about sin...anna

I never even heard the word, "sin", when I was a kid until I heard a song called, "It's a Sin to Tell a Lie." I just found out Billy Mayhew wrote that song, which was recorded as early as 1935. Fats Waller recorded it and did the vocals, but I didn't know who Fats was until after I graduated from high school. The only rendition I remember was by the Inkspots, whom I didn't like. I also never liked the music of that song. Since I knew lying was bad I figured "sin" had to be bad, too.

"Bad" to me was when I did something that made me feel bad. I had a super conscience as a kid, and was always afraid I'd be punished for something or other, so tried to avoid being bad. I mustn't have succeeded because I was punished anyway, or thought I was, even if when some adult snapped at me, it was just a reflection of his or her mood or how they felt at the time. That, of course, I didn't understand because I always looked to myself first as being the reason why people behaved that way, and never was told otherwise.

A psychiatrist told me once that I'd carried around guilt about having polio because I was given away by my mother and father the day after I had it, so probably overreacted to many things as a child. A screwy, sensitive little kid who didn't know very much; that was me at age 7.

There came a time growing up when I began to wonder who decided what was bad and what was good, anyway. I'd heard and read the Ten Commandments early, but they were tough because I didn't have any idea what the word, "adultery" meant, and what the heck did "covet" mean? Thou shalt not kill and thou shalt not steal meant something to me, but I'd never kill or steal, anyway.

To me a graven image was a gravestone in the cemetery, of course, but what was a false witness? It's really funny to remember these childhood things.

Mal

I first learned about sin in the first grade. I learned what a mortal sin was and what a venial sin was. I learned that I could commit sin just by thinking about breaking one of the rules. I also learned early that committing sin could be fun. Then too, I would have something to say to the priest in confession on Saturday. Sometimes I invented things to say just so I would not appear stupid kneeling in confessional with nothing to say. Besides, I couldn't always remember the sins I'd committed the previous week. I had a short attention span,I guess. The sins of the flesh were the ones that first came to mind every time. I don't remember my parents ever talking about sin. I guess they thought it was a private thing.

Is anyone aware of a glossary for abbreviations. I am reading along in posts when I see IMO and wonder what it means. There have been many others I did not know. All are probably very simple but WDTM is my question. Any help out there.

I learned about sin in the first grade. I learned about mortal sin and about venial sin. I learned the seven capital sins and the seven deadly sins. I learned that one could commit sin just by thinking about breaking one of the rules. There were sins of commission and sins of omission. There were lots of sins and some were fun to commit. I always tried to remember my sins so that in confession on Saturday afternoon I would have something to tell the priest. I hated to kneel there in the confessional with nothing to say. That would be embarassing. So many times I would invent sins to confess.I didn't want the priest to think I was uncooperative or worse, unmanly. Sins of the flesh always came to mind first, then came lying. Lying was pretty important, especially when I was lying about all the sins I had committed that week. What does a 7 to 10 year old boy know about these things, any way. I don't remember my parents ever talking about sin. I guess they thought it was a private thing.

Justin, IMO is "In My Opinion." Also, IMHO is "In My Humble Opinion." LOL is "Laugh Out Loud." There are some others, but I can't recall any right now.

HOWZAT

Faith says:--"I personally loved the magic and the ritual." As we examine the "magic" used by the priests of the Ancients, do we tend to feel sorry for the populace which is "taken advantage of" by the priests? Or is it possible that this is what the people wanted and so this is what they were being furnished? Do not most of us enjoy magic shows? And even though we know intellectually that it is all "smoke and mirrors," don't we go back to the shows again and again?

If that magic was taken away from the people in ancient times, what would or could there be to replace it?

Robby

"Yahveh is so ferocious that he thinks of destroying all the Jews for worshiping the Golden Calf. Moses has to argue with him that he should control hmself. 'Turn from thy fierce wrath' the man tells his god, 'and repent of the evil against thy people.' 'The Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.'

"Again Yahveh proposes to exterminate the Jews root and branch for rebelling against Moses, but Moses appeals to his better nature, and bids him think 'what people will say when they hear of such a thing.' He asks a cruel test -- human sacrifice of the bitterest sort -- from Abraham. Like Moses, Abraham teaches Yahveh the principles of morals, and persuades him not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if there shall be found fifty - forty - thirty- twenty - ten good men in those cities. Bit by bit he lures his god towards decency, and illustrates the manner in which the moral development of man compels the periodical re-creation of his deities."

What are your thoughts about this exchange between man and his god? What are your thoughts especially about the phrase I underlined at the end?

Robby

Mal, the 21th letter of The Hebrew alphabet is called Shin (or sin in some cases) and looks like a trident pointing upward without its handle. The Arabic letter is called the same. But the meaning is one of the English language! You cannot apply the sound of one language to the meaning in others...

A sin in Hebrew is pronounced "khet" (with a throaty 1st letter) and is also the sound for the 8th letter of the alphabet!

I never heard the word sin in observing the religion. It is more what has to be done, and what is forbidden to the Chosen People. All the commandments are the price to be paid to be counted in their number, it seems. Bubble

Click HERE for more details about the Golden Calf.

Robby

Click onto SODOM AND GOMORRAH for research about these cities.

Robby

Carla said: ‘ “Civilization starts where chaos ends” equals we have not reached it yet.” I agree with that. We are still in chaos hardly higher than primates, as far as society’s ability to live in harmony. If we can clone humans, live in space, cure diseases, reach wonderful scientific achievement, it does not mean that human beings have reached a high point in civilization. If we had, we would not be searching where perfection is since the Greeks philosophers, we would know and behave accordingly in perfect harmony.

There is not much I can say about sin. It’s like talking about ‘will the sun rise tomorrow’. It is not something I think about. I remember what Anna mentioned, ‘mass was a beautiful performance, like a circus’. (I have not been inside a Catholic church in over 25 years). The costumes were spectacular, the ritual, the reverence, the silence, and most of all the music was enough to transport you to wonderful places in my child’s imagination. It was like a theatre performance. Those things are not necessary for believers.

Durant, and many others taking quotes out of context to prove a point, might be good for those who are easily swayed but it lacks the whole, the theme, the sincerity, the conviction and it is self serving. If ‘Story of Civilization’ had been that convincing, people would have thrown out their Bible, but it only scratches the surface of human needs for a higher power. He seems to try to prove that God is a myth that only people of lower status are naïve enough to believe in such foolish tales. His HISTORICAL research is thorough, credible and beautifully written, but his contempt for people’s religion/spirituality/God is colossal. It only distances me from enjoying his story telling.

On the whole, participants in this discussion are much more credible, because we speak from the heart and that is what is convincing. We come from a varied background of different religious beliefs, different race, education, and lifestyle. Contempt is very seldom felt in participant’s writing. That is rare indeed it proves a high degree of civility.

Eloïse

Books such as those written by the Durants cause one to THINK. After reading such tomes, one may change one's mind partially or completely. Or one may be even further convinced that his/her original belief was correct.
Many of us who were active in "Democracy in America" did not always agree with deTocqueville's opinions. Nevertheless, after 13 months of constantly referring to his book, most (if not all) of us who participated there would agree that we understood America in a much deeper fashion.
The Durants did their research, came up with their conclusions, and then presented them in an often provocative way. We react as we choose.
Robby

Eloise answered Robby's question, "If that magic was taken away from the people in ancient times, what would or could there be to replace it?" when she said Catholic mass was like a theater performance. When I read the question I immediately thought theater was the answer.

Sea Bubble, SIN as the 21st letter of the Hebrew alphabet was a dictionary definition. I didn't think of SHIN at the time I looked the word up. SHIN is one of the letters on the dreidel, isn't it? It seems to me I put an image of it on one of the Chanukah web pages I built for the holiday issue of Sonata.

I think it's so interesting to read on one of the sites to which Robby linked that Sodom and Gomorrah were situated on a geologic fault, and there's evidence that an earthquake caused their destruction. What else could people of that time think except that an angry God was responsible? I wonder how many times today people think the wrath of God is upon them when bad things happen to them?

Durant says "with the centering of worship in the Temple at Jerusalem, theology reflected history and politics" and "they made no further progress toward monotheism until the Prophets" and "the worship of this awful divinity remained for many centuries a religion of fear rather than of love."

It's interesting to project that polytheistic gods and a monotheistic God might have been based on the needs of the time. If a people not united in thought could be brought together only by the most extreme sacrifice; then God would require such sacrifices as the one Abraham made when he sacrificed his only son.

A thought just occurred to me. Didn't that happen when Christianity came along? I wonder if anyone else sees this parallel? Doesn't it say in the New Testament For God gave his only begotten son?

Mal

Why in the world would anyone throw out a theological book like the Bible and substitute for it an historical study like the Durants' The Story of Civilization? The Bible is not a book about history. The Story of Civilization is not a collection of books about religion. Perhaps some misunderstandings arise because some people are under the impression that it is.

Mal

Mal - "Eloise answered Robby's question, "If that magic was taken away from the people in ancient times, what would or could there be to replace it?" Permit me to correct, Anna said that, not me and she was right that about people's beliefs in ancient times. I only mentioned about what I saw during mass in a Catholic church. Magic is not part of my beliefs.

Oh, dear. And there was no intention on my part, Eloise, to suggest that it is.

Mal

Mal, to answer the question you ask me, in my opinion both are a collection of books on history AND religion. Just to mention that people have different impressions about quite the same matter.

Would the rite of exorcism in the Catholic Church be considered magic?

Robby:

After reading the many posts concerning Durant's belief or non-belief, all the posts on sin, a higher power, spirituality and religion, I reflected on the simple beliefs of the mentally retarded children that I have worked with for nearly 40 years.

My own son Jamie is a mentally retarded child afficted with Down's Syndrome who has taught me so many things that I did not learn while I was in College.

Jamie believes everyone tells the truth, that promises must be kept, and when people are wrong, they apologize instead of argue.

Free from pride and unconcerned with appearances, Jamie is not afraid to cry when he is hurt, angry or sorry.

Jamie seems to think everyone wants to really be friends with him in a way that is difficult for an "educated" person to grasp.

God seems like his closest companion, in my moments of doubt and frustrations with my own beliefs.

I envy the security Jamie has in his simple faith. It is then that I am most willing to admit that he has some divine knowledge that rises above my mortal questions. It is then I realize that perhaps he is not the one with the handicap, I am.

My obligations, my fear, my pride, my circumstances-they all become disabilities when I am not willing to accept them.

Who knows if Jamie comprehends things I can never learn? After all, he has spent his whole life in that kind of sublime innocence, radiating unconditionally the goodness and love of his Creator.

And one day, after our mortal existence, when the mysteries of heaven are opened, we will all be amazed at how close God really is to our hearts.

I will then realize that God heard the simple prayers of a father who believed that when God gave him Jamie, the little boy with Down's Syndrome, he gave him a great gift, along with all the heart aches and tribulations, that created an intimacy with the God who made them both.

Jamie won't be surprised at all.

Pat

My family as I said before were from different religious backgrounds. We children were not babtised and most of the syblings chose to be when they became adults. I did not. As an adult I had other ways of coping with spirituality.

My mom was a pretty good teacher though she lied to us as all adults lie to children. She told us that we had a little man in our head that knew what was right and what was wrong and if we paid attention, he would always guide us right. I am still looking for that Guide.

I was a very good little girl and afraid of sin, and going to hell and burning forever so I tried very hard to be better all the time even if it felt like I was failing. When I was very good, I wanted a pay off for all that goodness because it really was hard to be good. I got it (the payoff) in church. The pomp and ceremony, the love of God which was mine, so they said, just for the asking. This I wanted in return for being good. That was my childhood religion.

I truly believe that you need pomp and ceremony and ritual yes and magic of theater and the promise of heaven or paradise, to give people a payoff for being good. I may be cynical but isnt survival a payoff for lots of stuff we do that we say we dont know why we do it...! We seemed to be wired for a payoff.fr

Patrick, your message to us is beautiful. Jamie has a close relationship with his Creator that we fail to grasp because of our complex thought processes that tell us there is no "magic" and only what we see and feel are real.

The 'rules' say we are allowed to tell, once in a post, what we believe.

I believe that God is the Creator of all things, that He loves me and you, that He provides forgiveness of "sin",(missing the mark) through faith in the atoning work (paying the penalty for sin )of Jesus Christ. I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we receive forgiveness. The greatest difficulty we have is that it takes a humbling of our own preconceived ideas to accept by faith that God created us, loves, us, and wants to be with us. We have been trained that we must work to receive forgiveness, but God has said (in the Bible) that it is a free gift to those who will receive it. Religious wars and smaller disagreements are often based in the wrong thinking that "we" have to "do" something to affect our salvation, whereas God has done it for us. He wants our obedience, but OUR obedience does not provide our salvation.

I do not believe that the intricacies we see in the development of our bodies, or those of animals, from the highest level to the lowest life forms, and the minds and instincts of man and beast, flora and fauna came about by chance.

I do not put God in a box, and am willing to accept that He may have used evolution to bring about changes in species. My husband has been in Carbon 14 dating since it's early days. He believes in God. The missing link has not been found. I believe that God made man "in His image" (the Bible states, "our image") when he made Adam and Eve. There were "men" that we've been talking about for thousands or possibly millions of years before God made man "in His image". That is when "man" received a spirit. He has the choice to connect with the Spirit of God, or reject His Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the "magic" in my faith. I have seen and experienced His working over and over. When I was impressed (a strong thought that would not go away) to lay hands on an indiviual with a disfiguring mark on his face that was diagnosed as an incurable disease that would grow; he was healed. That was 15 years ago, and no sign of the disease has reappeared. Certainly there was nothing in me that caused the disease to be healed. It was "God working through me" I believe, because I obeyed the prompting of His Spirit to pray at that moment. God has used me at other times for healing and in other ways that are just as "magical" to others, but to me, it is the reality of my God intervening in the affairs of men, when men will allow Him to do so. People are not healed every time I pray for them. At these times there was a strong feeling that I had to pray. If I had refused, I believe God may have found someone else, or He may have allowed the disease to go unchecked. He has given us "choice". The ability to choose. We wouldn't want it any other way, and neither would He. I wonder, though, how much we miss, by not "listening with our spirit to His spirit". We can choose to learn more about and "know" God through His Spirit, if we choose to do so. Even when we have experienced so much, it is still rather easy to dismiss His prompting as "a silly idea" and miss the blessing He had intended.

If there is a God who has made all things, (my belief) He certainly is looking at this life differently than we do. We only "see" our lives here and now. God would see this life as a small period in the whole picture. The bigger picture opens up vast new concepts and possibilities. The promise of heaven is not the sole benefit of faith. A relationship with the living God here and now satisfies the needs of the human heart.

I have stated "what I believe" and few may agree. I do know that God is real to me.

Dawn it is true that humans fear what they do not understand. I too have witnessed miracles. One miracle being that my husband who had a cancer very well advanced where there was no treatment for it at the time had the gift of 6 years the usual life expectancy would have been 1. He also had only 5% of his liver functioning yet he never became jaundiced or even vomited or had a headache. Thousands prayed for him regularly.

Carolyn

I once took a course in World Religions. The professor who taught it was a well-known and respected Protestant minister, who knew and consulted with numerous, equally well-known, leaders of religions different from his own. Throughout the time this course lasted, a period of several months, the professor referred to The Story of Civilization and other studies of history and archeological and scientific works from ancient times to the present.

Never once did he find it necessary to talk about or defend what he personally believed and preached from the pulpit of his church. Never once did any of us in that class feel as if our beliefs were threatened by the religions we studied which were different from our own or the historical and scientific reference materials which we studied.

The people in the class were from many different backgrounds and races and as diverse in belief as people are here in this discussion.

Mal

MAL - that's exactly how a clas in World World Religions should be taught! Bravo for your instructor and congratulations to you that you had an opportunity to participate in such a class. In that type of a format (just as the one that we have here in our discussion) students (and the instructor)have a wonderful opportunity not only to learn, but to share and through their sharing, they are teaching others as well.

Patrick - How touching. My grand'son of 19 also has Down's Syndrome, he is exactly like yours in every way, they hold the truth in their innocence. He can only function with the love of his parents and the love of God. It is essential to his life. Take that away and they just die, my own sister-in-law died at 18 just after she was put in a care facility after her mother died.

Dawn, Faith, Carolyn, Everybody thanks a million.

Eloïse

Mal, post #726:"......The Bible is not a book about history....." The Bible( O.T ) is often referred to as a book on the history of the Jewish people. Mal, I would recommend to read the book by Werner Keller : "THE BIBLE AS HISTORY", A Confirmation of The Book of Books.

Durant says( Robby's post # 719) :"Yahveh is so ferocious that he thinks of destroying all the Jews for worshiping the Golden Calf. Moses has to argue with him that he should control himself."

And again:"Again Yahveh proposes to exterminate the Jews root and branch for rebelling against Moses, but Moses appeals to his better nature, and bids him think 'what people will say when they hear of such a thing."

Excerpts from the book ‘on the kaballah':

Which brings us back to our question:"Do the Gods and Goddesses really exist?" The answer is a most resounding "yes"....they exist as the creation of man; the creature has created them in his own likeness, and the combined belief of millions of humans, has given a certain substance to the Deities.....and these will continue to exist as long as they are worshiped and invoked.....

Once the people have created their Gods and sustained them by belief and worship, propitiating them by offerings and sacrifice, and serving them in those ways that have become traditional, the Gods become the servants of the people. That is to say, that also the Gods may seem to be the masters, having been clothed in more than regal power and splendor, part of their power has been granted to them for the express purpose of using it to help people.

Or, Question: Did Moses appeal to a Higher Power within Himself??

Hopefully, my post does not lead us into a religious discussion, not my intent. It is just a reaction to Durant's statements( Moses telling God what He should do).

Patrick, thank you for sharing your son and his beautifully innocent assessment of civilization.

Well, Hubert, I would never substitute my copy of the Bible with the writing of any historian or The Story of Civilization. Nor would I substitute my copy of the Torah with Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus, or my copy of the Qur'an with Legacy of Islam by Carra de Vaux.

Mal

I think Durant is having a temper tantrum and ascribing it to Yahveh. I'm a practising Christian of the moderate, non-evangelizing, Protestant variety. I believe that the gods before Christ were created in man's image; and that Christ superseded Mosaic law by bringing a credo of love and forgiveness. Thus, I see the Bible as developmental. My concept of God is a non-understandable Being, who is behind the Big Bang and the creation of parallel universes. I see my God most clearly when I'm studying astro-physics and cosmology. I also experience the in-dwelling Holy Spirit, as one who helps me each day in recovering from multi-addictions. A Macro and Micro God, if you will. My views aren't important per se, but I wanted you to know where I'm coming from, and what my biases are.

Those of us who tolerate many divergent views of God represent a developing "civilization". Fundamentalists, who're convinced theirs is the only true way, set back civilization. Whether fundamentalist Christians bombing abortion clinics and killing doctors, or Taleban terrorists, or fundamentalist Jews--I don't admire any of them. I hope I don't sound too pompous.

I think Yahveh's main aims in dealing with the Jews were to get them away from worshipping many gods to worshipping only one god. I've never learned that "thou shalt have no other gods before me" meant that Yahveh would tolerate being a supreme God among other lesser gods. I've always learned that Yahveh wanted to be the Jews *only* God. I could be wrong.

I'm starting to read "The History of God" by Karen Armstrong, and am watching on tape the A&E series "Christianity--the First 1000 Years." Hopefully, I'll learn something.

As far as Robbie's q about what happens when the magic is taken away, I don't think it's possible for the magic to be taken away, even today. All the ancients had to us was look up into the heavens and behold the stars. That's all we really have to do, too. Incidentally, there's a full moon tonight!

"Never was there so thoroughly human a god." - Durant

I have just come back from a long day at the office and other places, read the 25 or so posts that had "materialized" since I left and admit frankly that as I read post after post on this very sensitive topic, I began to shiver in my boots that this was about to get out of hand.
Not once did it happen and I feel so proud that I am part of this very passionate yet civil group. Dawn gave a frank description of her beliefs but simultaneously reminded us that we were permitted to do this just once -- and who am I to go against my own guidelines?
Aside from the various beliefs expressed, there were many astute reactions to Durant's observations. I intend to go back and read them all again. They are indeed food for thought.
And while I don't feel I should single out any one post made today, you will forgive me if I do just that regarding Pat's extremely beautiful post about his son. I will give no reaction to it because to do so would detract from its original beauty.

Thank you all for helping to make this the special discussion group that it is!

Robby

My ISP has been changed. My new email address is rbiallok@earthlink.com -- I changed it in my profile so all you have to do is click onto my name or put it in your address book.

Robby

Let us continue on. "This intense and sombre religion never took on any of the ornate ritual and joyous ceremonies that marked the worship of the Egyptian and Babylonian gods. A sense of human nothingness before an arbitrary deity darkened all ancient Jewish thought. Despite the efforts of Solomon to beautify the cult of Yahveh with color and sound, the worship of this awful divinity remained for many centuries a religion of fear rather than of love. One wonders, in looking back upon these faiths, whether they brought as much consolation as terror to humanity.
"Religions of hope and love are a luxury of security and order. The need for striking fear into a subject or rebellious people made most primitve religions cults of mystery and dread. The Ark of the Covenant, containing the sacred scrolls of the Law, symbolized by its untouchability the character of the Jewish creed.

"When the pious Uzzah, to prevent the Ark from falling into dust, caught it for a moment in his hands, 'the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his error, and there he died.'"

A religion of fear?

Robby

That's the phrase written in green above and I'm still chewing on it. I still believe this is a case of transference of a Christian belief on the part of the Durants. It is true that they did large amounts of research but they did it in the early part of the twentieth century and social mores were different then. Jews were not accepted in genteel society and it was not unusual to say negative things and have other people accept these ideas without question. Who remembers the movie "A Gentlemen's Agreement."

Recently, I heard a sermon on the origin of the word Yahweh or Jehova. If you look at the letters used in Hebrew that represent the name of God, that's kind of what it sounds like. But the letters represent the first letters of the names of the vowels under the word for God, not his name. This error was made by a 16th century scribe who thought he had discovered God's name and didn't think to check with someone who knew so this name has come down to us through the centuries.

Mahlia: That was an interesting comment on the Jews in Iran. I guess that's where Vidal Sassoon's name originated.

Robby's question: One wonders, in looking back upon these faiths, whether they brought as much consolation as terror to humanity.

Sometimes I get the impression from reading the bible that no one every laughed. I think there have always been people who had fun.

I also would like to make special mention of the post about the Downs Syndrome son. If we all could only look at life like he does!

Carolyn

Sharon says:--"Sometimes I get the impression from reading the bible that no one ever laughed. I think there have always been people who had fun."

Consider the following. This Link about FUN may give us a different idea.

Robby

I can't remember the pasage but god had "no name". He was shy in addition to his other wonderful qualities. .The letters YHWH were asigned to him by Moses. The vowels were added later perhaps to make it readable or soundable by non Hebrew speakers. Can someone straighten me out on this point?

HOWZAT: Thanks for the translations of IMO etc.

Durant says," The moral development of man compels the periodical re- creation of his deities". Durant says this following a discription of conversations between Abram and his god and between Moses and his god. Both attempt to talk god out vengeful actions of a horrendous nature. "Listen god, what was ok yesterday is not ok today.You can't wipe out a whole town, just because of sex and a little idolatry. Give them a break! If you find 50 guys who are ok, ok, you don't do it. OK, make it 10, a minyon." Well, we know there is only one ok guy, so Sodom and Gomorrah went down in an earthquake. What's the point of all this? I think, Abrahm and Moses both understood that as society changes so does the need for a vengeful god change. It's one thing if you are going to conquer Canaan. Then one needs a brutal leader but if one is travel from Ur to Canaan one needs a protector for the flocks. What is not needed is a god who insists Abrahm sacrifice his own son as punishment for his queries. All this smacks of a good story, not history. This is not a discription of the past. It's a theological tale with no historical elements. If one took this from any other place than the Bible, all would recognize it as folk tale.

Having looked at that brief moment of fun, let us consider the next comment.

"Never has another people been so fond of virtue -- unless it was those Puritans who seemed to step out of the Old Testament with no interruption of Catholic centuries. Since the flesh was weak and the Law complex, sin was inevitable, and the Jewish spirit was often overcast with the thought of sin's consequences, from the withholding of rain to the ruin of all Israel.

"There was no Hell in this faith as a distinctive place of punishment. But almost as bad was the Sheol, or 'land of darkness' under the earth, which received all the dead, good and wicked alike, except such divine favorites as Moses, Enoch and Elijah.

"The Jews, however, made little reference to a life beyond the grave. Their creed said nothing of personal immortality, and confined its rewards and punishments to this mundane life. Not until the Jews had lost hope of earthly triumph did they take over, probably from Persia and perhaps also from Egypt, the notion of personal resurrection.

"It was out of this spiritual denouement that Christianity was born."

What must life have been like in those ancient times when, with no beliefs of personal immortality, all effort was concentrated on daily life?

Robby

Then, as now, there were doubtless as many variations of "belief" as there were people! One has only to skim a few of the posts above to have this confirmed!!

I am among those who believe man created god[s] in his own image rather than the other way around. Belief in some greater being has fulfilled man's need to explain the inexplicable for centuries and doubtless will continue to do so for many people for many more centuries to come.

Personally, I find that depressing; but my belief in freedom of thought is so complete that I would never dream of questioning or criticizing any individual's beliefs. I do think that as the need for these beliefs lessens with enlightenment, man's progress as a civilized creature will increase. Look at you and you and you... as compared to a "fundamentalist" still functioning emotionally much as they did in the 12th century.

As I sit at my computer I watch the full bright moon rising over Willapa Bay.

Looking through the last 50 posts,or 200 hundred for that matter, we have to admit that we have a different outlook on life, God, civilization and all, than the people had two or three thousand years ago. Do you believe that people one thousand years from now will share, that is, agree with our views?

The capacity for ongoing change and transformation is the most salient feature of our human nature, it requires an open mind; and our human capacity for change and transformation is reflected in our human spirituality.

Like you, I believe that God was created by man in man's image and also that our image of God changes as our need changes. When we are peaceful and in the main, civil to one another we have little need for a god like arbitor. When we don't do unto others as we would like others to do unto us, some of us need a God to talk to. That's ok. Pat's son needs a companion, someone who will hold his hand when he wants help with living in this world. God is very real to him.

One thought about criticizing anyone's beliefs. I didn't think that is what we are doing here. What we are doing is examing the work of the Durants in the light of contemporary living.

Hubert, I am not too sure about the human capacity for change and transformation. It seems to me that civilization and religion need tradition to keep it functioning in the FACE of constant change. What I get from following Durant and the discussion group is the fact that human existence is like the fiddler on the roof, "trying to scratch out a pleasant simple tune without breaking our necks completly". Because of our traditions we manage to keep our balance. As Tevye, a poor Jewish milkman explains, "tradition tells us what God expects us to do". Tradition in Tevye's mind is the bedrock for his beliefs.

Mal: You do come up with interesting observations. Commanded by his God, Abrahms is prepared to sacrifice his son as a test of his faithfulness. Similarly, Christ's Father commands the sacrifice of his son. Christ's last words, while dying on the cross, were,"Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" While this kind of sacrifice was forbidden the Jews, Durant says it was not completely out of fashion. However, because it was forbidden, you would think the authors of the New Testament,would not build it into the Passion story. Christ challenged the Sanhedrin but it is inconsistent that the pair (Christ and his Father) would break the law in this way. I wonder what others think about the connection.

JUSTIN, as the story goes, Jesus, The Christ, was sacrificed for the sins of all the World--before, now, and after--because His Father, God, could not look upon sin. This brought in a new era, God not just for the Jews but for everyone, with Jesus as the mediator, the device for Salvation, and the Holy Spirit as the Comforter. Hence, the story of the old way in the Old Testament, and the new, improved way in the New Testament, though there was a codicil that Jews still were bound by all the old laws and were to enjoy the new as well. Most Jews didn't take to that and are still waiting for the Messiah that was promised in the Old Testament.

HOWZAT

Fear is always present in love.

If we love a person deeply, we are afraid to hurt their feelings because he/she might not love you any more or as much as before.

The punishment for losing a loved one is SEPARATION. That is cruel enough and through fear of losing him/her we find ways not to hurt them.

The same is true with God who is both feared AND loved. If He deserves to be loved, he should also be almighty, both powerful and loving, otherwise how could we love someone whom we could always control at will. Hope for eternal life with God is what keeps believers believing.

"Fear is always present in love. The punishment for losing a loved one is SEPARATION."

Two apparently contradictory concepts. Agree with Eloise? Disagree?

Robby

"The growth of clerical power and religious education never quite sufficed to win the Hebrews from superstition and idolatry. The hill-tops and groves continued to harbor alien gods and to witness secret rites. A substantial minority of the people prostrated themselves before sacred stones - or worshiped Baal or Astarte - or practised divination in the Babylonian manner - or set up images and burned incense to them - or knelt before the brazen serpent or the Golden Calf - or filled the Temple with the noise of heathen feasting - or made their children 'pass through the fire' in sacrifice.
"Even some of the kings, like Solomon and Ahab, went 'a-whoring' after foreign gods. Holy men like Elijah and Elisha arose who, without necessarily becoming priests, preached against these practices, and tried by the example of their lives to lead their people into righteousness.

"Out of these conditions and beginnings, and out of the rise of poverty and exploitation in Israel, came the supreme figures in Jewish religion -- those passionate Prophets who purified and elevated the creed of the Jews, and prepared it for the its vicarious conquest of the Western World."

A gradual move toward the Jewish religion as we know it now?

Robby

Justin, the Abram story of the near sacrifice of Isaac is a necessary prelude to the story of Jesus's sacrifice of himself. As the ram substituted for Isaac, Jesus removed the necessity for subsequent blood sacrifice. The beginning of the communion service uses the words "This our sacrifice of bread and wine." Jesus is referred as "The lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world."

So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
Is all the sad world needs.

--Ella Wheeler Wilcox, poet (1850-1919)

"Methuselah lived 900 years.
Methuselah lived 900 years.
How could a woman give in
To any man who's been livin'
For 900 years?"

"'Tain't necessarily so.
'Tain't necessarily so.
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
'Tain't necessarily so."
Remember that song from George Gershwin's Porgy and Bess? The words and melody came to my mind when I considered how many translations, transcriptions and versions of the Bible were made by so many, many scribes and priests and kings down through the ages. Mention has already been made here of errors done by a scribe about the name "Yahveh". How many more changes and errors were made, to create what we know as the Bible in the 21st century, I wonder?

About Robby's question: There can be fear in anything you want it to be in, love included. Much of my youth was spent in fear - fear of punishment if I didn't do my homework or practice my piano lesson and went outside in the sunshine instead, fear that prophesies in the Bible would come true and the world would end before I had a chance to grow up, on and on. It took quite a while to get rid of some of those fears, which were, I believe, totally irrational.

God would not smite me down if I spilled milk on the clean kitchen floor or flirted a little with the boy who sat beside me in the 7th grade at school, or received a B- in arithmetic instead of an A, or if I walked under a ladder or stepped on the lines in the sidewalk, or even if I missed Junior Choir Rehearsal and Sunday School because I had La Grippe. Life was a whole lot easier when I came to these realizations and shed those fears.

Yes, the Jewish thinkers called Prophets did elevate and strengthen the Jewish religion, and in a way, paved the way for another religious movement called Christianity. That's how I see it, anyway.

Mal

Sea Bubble, that's a wonderful verse and says it all.

Mal

Hope I am not too Politically Incorrect on this but I think FEAR is the basis for ALL religions. Example: If one does not do Y then X will happen to you. If you do Y then you will not have X happen to you. The heaven and hell is an example.

Fear motivates all aspects of life, not just religion, to a certain extent.
If one does not perform well in his/her job, the fear of dismissal.
If one cannot fit into the current mode of dress/body weight,etc. leads to the fear of not being accepted by peer group(this fear predominately by those of a younger age.)
Fear of not being a good enough spouse/parent(the "what will the neighbors think syndrome".)

Sad state of affairs to be so constantly fearful, isn't it? Thank God, as we age most of those fears have less significance. The only lasting fear is death and what that's all about.

I think it's rather terrible that life for so many people is based on as negative an emotion as fear. There's a natural reason for fear when humans are threatened, say by a wild animal or a person out of control whose behavior cannot be predicted. In that case, fear increases adrenalin flow, and that makes action swifter and easier. In my opinion, fear created by something some human decided does nothing except lead to a sense of powerlessness and weakness and an inability to think and act in a positive way.

As far as fear of death is concerned, why fear something that is inevitable and beyond human control?

Mal

Fear is always present in love?.... It all depends how strong your faith is.

FEAR is the basis for ALL religions?.... Of course it is, that is how the priesthood are able to control the masses.

If fear is always present in love I would reject love. I am not going to live in fear for or of anyone. I decided that when I discarded the fears of my childhood for the rational thinking of my adulthood. Along with the rational thinking came a new self-confidence which irritated my husband beyond belief. That is another story. But family relationships are kind of like "religion" An all powerful "God" is the husband, The Nurturer, Nature, Mother who must create and bear then civilize the little "heathens" who are her infants. She better have them under control by the time they are running around in order to produce good citizens.. Of course she can always threaten them with "God" or the Father. Faith

SHARON - sorry, I'm a bit late in coming in here today. My understanding from the Persian Jewish side of my family is that "the central theme in Judaic theology" was (and always has been)worshipping God.

RE: your comment about Vidal Sassoon - I think his family is from the European branch. The Sassoons with whom I am familiar are Iraqi bankers and it is this branch that established their name and business in Hong Kong. (They also have a presence in Shanghai as one might expect.)

Hi Mal, I think it is a common thing to fear the unknown.
And death, though inevitable, is an unkown state. No one really knows what happens when the heart stops beating and the brain no longer functions.

A little fear in this area may even be healthy...leading to taking greater care of self. Few amoung us have a "death wish", wanting to hurry the process along.

Going back in time I would imagine the ancients were driven to "oracles" and priests for answers for the unknown which caused them fears: ie. Storms, flooding, locust, lightening and all other things one can think of. A lot of power was then granted to those who were "in the know"!

Hi DigGirl, first thing that comes to mind re: the masses seeking answers to the unknown is the plague.
The lack of knowledge of what could cause people to die en masse no doubt drove common folk to anyone they believed could provide answers and or protect them.

Even with the medical advancements of the modern age, we still look to professionals in both medical field and the religious field to provide answers/save us.(Please don't think I am putting God & surgeons on the same level...some of them tend to elevate themselves to that higher level though...LOL)

Ah yes! Pat, the medical. Ring a-round of rosy! Pocket full of posey! To ward off the plague during the dark ages! Became a nursery rhyme.

Durant says," the central idea in Judaic theology was sin. Sharon and several others say'" the central idea was worship of God." I think the central idea was fear. We are not looking at the Jews of 2002 or of 1930, or even of 500 BCE, We are looking at the Jews at time of the first temple and just before it. God was seen at that time as a vengeful, self centered, awful divinity. He was not seen as some one to be loved and worshipped but as someone to be feared.Think of Uzzah and the pleading of Moses.God was not good and he was not omnicient.He was a fearful divinity. So I disagree with Durant. Judaism was not concerned with sin and it's consequences but was concerned with fear and avoidance of consequences.

Justin, well said.

It seems to me that the great diety has become just in recent times all loving and forgiving. Is this because we know more along the scientific lines (more can be explained) and therefore we have less to fear?

Fear really is a valuable emotion. It keeps us from doing things like running in front of a car or hurting someone we love by being unfaithful. This could also apply to God.

Pat and Louise, some of what you call fear, I call caution and care. Care and caution keep me eating well and taking care of myself because I don't like to be sick. Caution keeps me from running into the street (if I could run, ha ha!) It was never fear that kept me faithful to my husband, family or friends. It was a sense of loyalty and the knowledge that I did not want to hurt them.

Actual fear is something else that is almost physical. As I said, adrenalin flow increases. When that has happened to me, my heart has beaten a lot faster. All my nerves seem more sensitive. My vision and hearing are more acute. It feels as if all the hair on my body is standing on end. I am in a state of being "on guard" for danger in pretty much the same way an animal is when that animal senses danger. Some phobias can cause this type of reaction.

That doesn't happen if I tell myself if I say something or do something I'm "afraid" it might hurt someone's feelings. Nor does it happen when I have faced an unknown like death. I have a son who has had a serious, potentially life-threatening illness for a while. When I think of the possibility of his dying, I do not react in the way I described above.

I believe, but don't have the scientific evidence to post here, that a state of real fear is extremely hard on the body and cannot be sustained for a very long time. Worry about consequences and concern and caution are not fear, in my opinion.

Mal

Hi everyone. It took quite a while to read through all the letters.

My own belief is that G-d has no body. Therefore no sex, color, religion. He/she is LIGHT. The Big Bang. As Jews, we worship God.

I also believe in Miracles and G-d's Healing Light.

My belief gives me comfort. I also get angry at G-d for giving us too much "Free Will." Look what we have done, and are doing, with it.

I was raised by Athiests who decided that they didn't want me to attend the Lutheran Church with my friends. Church was the first place where I ever heard of "Sin." Like Mal's post, I was Bad.

In Grammar School, I was "The Heathen" who had to leave the classroom when the teacher read from the Christian Old Testament.

In the Conservative Synagogue that I attended, the Rabbi preached a sermon saying that it was better not to attend than to be driven there. I was the only one driven there--dropped off at the door by my father. He finally enrolled me in a Reformed Synagogue.

There, now in fifth grade, when we were reading aloud from our bibles, mine was very different. My mother had bought the King James version instead of the Jewish Scriptures.

The Sixth Commandment is: You will not Murder. King James changed it to, Thou shalt not Kill. Think about this. Soldiers, and police, have to kill. How do they reconcile this?

IMHO,[Thank you Howsat] the Old Testament was written after the New. Just check out the story of Ruth. Plus anything fortelling of the coming of the Messiah. We were reading from one of the "minor prophets" when my bible was "different."

Hebrew has a shin, as Sea-Bubble explained, that can be prounced as: sh or s. It also has a samech which is only pronounced as s. There are no vowels in Hebrew.

Clair, In Biblical Israel, the Priests were one of the 12 tribes--The Cohanim. Most people in America with the names Cohan and Levy are "Ellis Island" names. The bored workers found that Jews were happy to give up their unpronouncable names for them. My own surname, Rose, is an Ellis Island Name. My paternal grandfather, running from the Czar's Army--when picked by a cossack one served for life, insisted on the actual Hertzberg.

Everyone can pronounce Hertz; but, Hertzber was a different story. I live in Safed, Israel. A name with three consonents. Phonetically use: Svaat.

MAL and JUDYFL 743 & 743, Right On!!!

MAL and TUCSCON PAT, I agree completely.

PERSIAN 772, 100% CORRECT.

PATRICK, Not having any family here, in Israel, I sort of adopted a young boy/man my older son's age. He spoke English and was from San Francisco. He lives in Tiveria and is now married with four beautiful children. Two girls and then two boys. My eldest "foster-grandaughter" has Mosaic Down's Syndrome. She has no concept of math and poor reading comprehension. However, she doesn't look like she has Down's Syndrome. Now in her first year in High School, she's finally getting the scholastic help she needs. Blessings to your son, you, and your family.

Carla

Justin rightly reminds us that "we are not looking at the Jews of 2002 or of 1930, or even of 500 BCE, We are looking at the Jews at the time of the First Temple and just before it."

It is so easy to begin thinking of Israel at the time Jesus appeared or thereabouts and confuse the two eras. We will come to that later but we are still examining Judea many centuries before the birth of Jesus.

Carla states:--"When we were reading aloud from our bibles, mine was very different."

That reminds me of the time many decades ago when I was attending a bible study group with someone who had recently come from France. At that time she did not understand English very well, much less the Elizabethan language in the King James Bible. We obtained a Bible written in French to make it easier for her and were all amazed to find that in chapter after chapter, verse after verse, what was said in French was entirely different from the English version.

Robby

The Old Testament lists 613 laws. Some of them are kind of quaint to people living today. However since the discussion is about whether Jewish theology was about sin or fear in biblical times, it might be useful to look at the mitzvot and decide for yourself. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/613.htm > You also get a feel for the every day situations that faced the Jews in ancient times.

My final word on the fear factor. There are many degrees of fear nestled between the extremes of "fight or flight".
These fears are probably more correctly called anxiety. But, anxiety is like an alarm clock trying to wake us up to the fact that there is a problem. We can keep hitting "doze", waiting for the problem to go away, but it seldom does.

If we never felt anxious, our ability to solve problems would never be tested.

Durant continues (see GREEN quotes above):--"It required the fabulous fortune of Solomon to mark the beginning of the class war in Israel. Solomon, like Peter and Lenin, tried to move too quickly from an agricultural to an industrial state. Not only did the toil and taxes involved in his enterprises impose great burdens upon his people, but when those undertakings were complete, after twenty years of industry, a proletariat had been created in Jerusalem which, lacking sufficient employment, became a source of political faction and corruption in Palestine, precisely as it was to become in Rome.

"Slums developed step by step with the rise of private wealth and the increasing luxury of the court. Exploitation and usury became recognized practices among the owners of great estates and the merchants and money-lenders who flocked about the Temple. The landlords of Ephraim, said Amos 'sold the righteous for silver and the poor for a pair of shoes.'"

Here are some terms which we might have thought apply only to recent times -- "class war," "agricultural to industrial," "proletariat," "political faction and corruption," "slums," "private wealth," "exploitation," and "great estates."

What is your reaction to the possibility of such concepts as having existed almost 3,000 years ago?

Robby

Robby - I alternate reading from French and English bibles to find subtleties in the meaning of some words and it is different sometimes, but as a whole the message in the whole Bible remains the same. Both my American New International Version and the Louis Segond printed in Switzerland were translated from Hebrew and Greek. Again there is the 'Bible en français courant' that I find too folksy?? I don't understand the Elizabethan language of the King James Bible at all because I learned English as an adult after I had left the very few years I spent in school.

We have a Greek man in our church who reads directly from his Greek bible and explains the Greek version of some words to clarify gray areas.

Carla, thanks for pointing out: 'Thou shalt not kill' vs 'You will not murder'. A difference worthy of being mentioned.

Tuscon Pat - Well said on fear.

Eloïse

The Mitzvot is a list put together by Maimonides, a 12th century CE Jewish medical doctor and philosopher. He combed the Torah for rules but many of these books had not been reduced to writing until centuries after the period we are discussing.Deuteronomy particularly was not discovered until much later and it contains the bulk of the laws.Leviticus is a close second.A few of the rules listed by Maimonides is the result of a Talmud interpretation. But in the period we are talking about the law was word of mouth and very limited in content.What was available to Maimonides in the 12th century CE was not available to the Jews 2000 years before him.

Carla: What differences did you note when you said your Bible was very different. The old Testament has been translated and retranslated so often and revised so many times it is hard to imagine being even close to the Torah. The Septuagint was only the first of many translations. Please, tell us what you know about these differences.The Elizabethan King James version is one of Durant's sources. It will help, I think, to know something of it's corespondance and it's verisimilitude.

"A year later the war broke out and robbed the world of its beauties. It destroyed not only the beauty of the countrysides through which it passed and the works of art which it met in its path but also shattered our pride in the achievements of civilization, our admiration for many philosophers and artists and our hopes for a final triumph over the differences between nations and races. It tarnished the lofty impartiality of science, it revealed our instincts in all their nakedness and let loose the evil spirits within us which we thought had been tamed for ever by centuries of continuous education by the noblest minds. It made our country small again and made the rest of the world far remote. It robbed us of very much that we had loved, and showed us how ephemeral were many things that we regarded as changeless."

Sigmund Freud from "On Transcience"

"This growing gap between the needy and the affluent, and the sharpening of that conflict between the city and the country which always accompanies an industrial civilization, had something to do with the division of Palestine into two hostile kingdoms after the death of Solomon -- a nothern kingdom of Ephraim with its capital at Samaria, and a southern kingdom of Judah, with its capital at Jerusalem.
"From that time on, the Jews were weakened by fraternal hatred and strife, breaking out occasionally into bitter war. Shortly after the death of Solomon, Jerusalem was captured by Sheshonk, Pharaoh of Egypt, and surrendered, to appease the conqueror, nearly all the gold that Solomon had gathered in his long career of taxation.

"The men to whom the word Prophets (in Hebrew, Nabi) was first applied were not quite of the character that our reverence would associate with Amos and Isaiah. Some were diviners who could read the secrets of the heart and the past, and foretell the future, according to remuneration. Some were fanatics who worked themselves into a frenzy by weird music, strong drink, or dervish-like dances, and spoke, in trances, words which their hearers considered inspired. Jeremiah speaks with professional scorn of 'every man that is mad, and maketh himself a prophet.' Some were gloomy recluses, like Elijah. Many of them lived in schools or monasteries near the temples, but most of them had private property and wives."

Looking at the various personalities of those Ancient days, do we (staying away from any specific names of people in politics or religion) see any similarities with people of our time? How about conflict "between city and country?"

Robby

Robby your question made me laugh or perhaps snort! I have lived long enough and I suspect most of us have as well to see any number of "prophets" come and go. I no longer remember the ones who predicted the end of the world when I was in Junior High School. They met on a hill in California to await the end. In California it was a sunny, bright day. In St Louis the sky DARKENED ( in fact I have never seen a day time sky that looked as dark as night which that cloud did ) about noon if I remember well and I was so frightened. My mother being a very sensible person would not let me stay home from school and my seat was near the window. I do remember the newspapers the next day telling about the flood of calls to the police etc to see if the world was coming to an end.

Like my mother I have had to tell my children to ignore such prophecy. If the world is coming to an end we cant do anything about it so just keep living like it isnt.

When I read some of the posts I realize what a benevolent childhood and life I have led. I did have the "gift" of precognition or esp since I was 11. I can say there was no way, no hint to lead me to know things in advance I just did. It seems to have diminished since I have reached a very mature state and I feel grateful for that. Knowing something in advance ( and usually they were personal calamities relating to my family) is not a gift I appreciated. By sharing some of my warnings I did keep my husband safe a couple of times since he knew I had been right about some events.

We have a multitude of modern prophets they call themselves experts.

My relatives who farmed always wanted to move to the city and my city relatives always retired to farms when they reached retirement age. Family farms are becoming a thing of the past as are many small businesses. They can lease their property to the large farming corporations for more than they can earn on thier own. The more things change the more thay remain the same.

back to my book..anna

It seems to me we've seen this same kind of social upheaval before in Sumeria, Egypt and Babylonia, haven't we? Durant says, "......poverty is created by wealth, and never knows itself poor until riches stare it in the face...."

I am reminded of the march on Washington during the Great Depression in this country when unemployed men camped by the Capitol building. I am reminded of farmers who drove their tractors and trucks to Washington to fight for their cause. I am reminded of race riots when poor Blacks rebelled against their status and socio-inflicted poverty. I am reminded of the American Revolution. I am reminded of groups and leaders of all types who seemed to spring out of nowhere to protest and assume the role of prophets.

My dictionary says that the second meaning of the word "prophet" is "A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression." There have been people like this who have learned from events of the past and can predict what will happen in volatile situations in the United States throughout its history. These people try to relay a message of wisdom.

I remember altruistic politicians, a few of which were elected. I remember one religious leader who insisted on non-violence. There were others who were less selfless and altruistic. The pattern of Judea has persisted. In this case, though, it seems as if religion is to be the means to mend rifts and bring people together. One way to do this was to ally them to one god rather than many, it appears to me.

Mal

The February issue of The WREX Magazine is on the web. Among many stories and essays by SeniorNet writers in this Valentine's issue is a beautiful essay called Passion
by Eloise de Pelteau. Scroll down the index cover to locate the link.

I know you'll enjoy what you find in the February issue of The WREX Magazine. The WREX Magazine can also be accessed through a link in the SeniorNet Galleries.

Marilyn Freeman, Publisher of
The WREX Magazine

Mal - Thanks love. Right now, I am sort of mad at myself because I missed a very important meeting because I thought it was this PM and it was this AM. GrrrrHa. Seniornet is distracting me.

POPULAR BIBLE BECOMES MORE 'GENDER-ACCURATE'

"Sons of God" are becoming "children of God" and "brothers" will now be "brothers and sisters" in a top-selling translation of the Bible. The changes in some gender-specific terms are among several revisions readers will discover in Today's New International Version of the Bible when it becomes available this spring.

<http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/books/01/28/revised.bible/index.html>

It's interesting to note that CNN chose to put this story in the category of "Entertainment" (SHOWBIZ/books)

What did I say yesterday about "Tain't necessarily so"? Now even more changes and revisions of the Bible. I wonder if there are original copies of these books to which one could refer?

Mal

Since it's a bit quiet in here today I'm going to post another quote by Sigmund Freud. It occurred to me when I was reading a novel in which Freud's name is mentioned often that the study of psychology and psychiatry must give insight about the behavior of human beings not just in the present era but in the past.

"Human civilization, by which I mean all those respects in which human life has raised itself above its animal status and differs from the life of beasts - and I scorn to distinguish between culture and civilization - , presents, as we know, two aspects to the observer. It includes on the one hand all the knowledge and capacity that men have acquired in order to control the forces of nature and extract its wealth for the satisfaction of human needs, and, on the other hand, all the regulations necessary in order to adjust the relations of men to one another and especially the distribution of the available wealth. The two trends of civilization are not independent of each other: firstly, because the mutual relations of men are profoundly influenced by the amount of instinctual satisfaction which the existing wealth makes possible; secondly, because an individual man can himself come to function as wealth in relation to another one, in so far as the other person makes use of his capacity for work, or chooses him as sexual object; and thirdly, moreover, because every individual is virtually an enemy of civilization, though civilization is supposed to be an object of universal human interest."

Sigmund Freud

From "The Future of an Illusion"

Mal does he mean that the individual is the enemy of civilization because the individuals wants are thwarted by civilizations mores of law and morals etc.? I think he does mean that when I recall his recounting what the id is in his theory of conscious and unconscious intentions. Faith

Mal: Try the Torah for originality. It's not but it's closer than the old testament.The original Greek translation called the Septuagint must be around someplace. Any other thoughts?

Durant says, "......poverty is created by wealth, and never knows itself poor until riches stare it in the face...."

Today with TV and other media reaching most of the world, the riches of the U.S. stare the whole world in the face. This attracts some to our way of life, and it just alienates others. I don't see this as the US's flaw, however. There will always be a "richest nation in the world."

In that same vein, I recall when we were talking about the Great Depression in the Greatest Generation Discussion quite awhile back, nearly everyone who lived through that time didn't know that they were poor because everyone around us was in the same situation. Comparisons offer a different perspective. That can be sad or frightening but if we didn't know that there was a higher economic level we would never aspire to fight our way out of poverty, would we?

Justin: The Torah didn't suddenly appear 2000 years ago. It might seem inconceivable that people could memorize so much and pass the information to others orally but there is a certain cadence to the Torah and it can be memorized. People do perform great feats of memory. Those children memorizing the Koran in those religous schools are an example. If you remember the book, Roots, the author's family orally passed down the history of his family when they had come to the U.S. When he found his family in Gambia (I think) they supplied the rest of the story dating back to their earliest memory up to when his ancestor was captured and disappeared.

The Torah was written in one continuous sentence and so many meanings could be derived, depending on where you thought a sentence ended. In Jesus' time, people were starting to put grammar into the Torah to make it clearer. There is a bit in the NT about Jesus preaching a sermon and someone saying he had never understood that passage before. It is thought that Jesus could have been one of the people working on the clarification of the Torah.

I think there is enough other evidence from what various prophets said that there were rules or laws that people were supposed to obey and they had to have come from somewhere. Like how to clean a lelper's house or leaving a field fallow or how to treat a slave.

Some people also believe that Amos and Isaiah were part of the OT and did not predict Christianity as Durant suggests. People went back into the OT to find clues that Jesus was the messiah. They used something called a mishnaic argument which was using an old story to prove a new one. A good example is the gifts the queen of Sheba gave King Solomon which paralleled the gifts the wise men gave Jesus. An earlier post suggesting that the story of Abraham almost sacrificing Issac had a similarity to Jesus being sacrificed. This could also be an example but with a different outcome.

As for the poor always being with us. Plus la change, c'est plus la meme chose. But blaming the poor for being poor is not fair.

ROBBY - what's up wtih your service? I received a blank email from you and the attachment was also blank. The subject line ("Durant") was clear, but nothing else appeared.

SHARON - if I might add to your comment about memorizing. It is most common, especially during Ramadan, for Muslims to read through the entire Holy Qur'an and commit it to memory. Youth are encouraged to do so and events are held to encourage this practice. As soon as children can read, they are encouraged annually to memorize special segments of the Qur'an and to encourage each other in continuing this practice throughout their childhood. It was quite normal for the members of my Persian Jewish family (speaking in the 20th century)to recall "tales of the ancients" (a reference to the Prophets) in recalling ancient Jewish traditions and why certain things were believed, etc. No one ever questioned or thought it unusual that contemporary families would rely so strongly (and regularly) on events so long ago. It was "just part of our tradition," and family members could recite events from numerous generations as though they happened the same week and the people mentioned were still alive.

I have been having TERRIBLE times with my email My guru has just left after two hours at my house and hopefully it is "fixed." Earthlink bought my previous ISP and did "I don't know what" to my software. I don't know who received messages from me or who sent me anything. My email address has been changed, but if you click onto my name, it should now have the new address.
I have not sent any attachments to anyone and I don't open up any attachments from anyone. Norton anti-virus has just gone through all my softward and it should be OK now.

Robby

JUSTIN, I'm not a Biblical scholar. See SHARON A's postings #783 and #803 for very good information and a great website.

However, I do appreciate that someone is thinking of the psychological difference between: You will not Murder and Thou shalt not kill.

ANNAFAIR: Amen. NOTE: Christian = So be it. Jewish = Let it be so.

MAL, Still having eye trouble: Couldn't read the large, dark, italic. Plus the large, dark print of a few others. The regular print on my screen is just fine-but tiring. I know this doesn't make sense; but it's a reaction to the drops and pill I had to take to dialate my eyes on 21 January.

Regards to all,

Carla

PS: Sharon A: Where do you live that's the Gateway to the North.

Safed, in the north of Israel is also called the Gateway to the North.

Sharon; I certainly concur that the writers of the New Testament sought prophets and precursors in the OT to confirm the the role of Jesus. There was an effort to connect Jesus' mother through a tree of Jesse to the line of David. Numerous other connections were attempted and I am looking forward to identifying them as we go along. .

The second Isaiah clearly points to a messiah as well as introducing the Jews to Yahveh ll the good God. The God of Jeremiah is the same old punishing God. But the second Isaiah brings in a new image of God. Here is a deity who can help an indentured people to have hope. Of course, there were many in Babylon especially in the second generation, who adjusted to the new life and did not wish to leave when Cyrus made it possible. The zealots who did return to Judah found that after 50 years their old lands were farmed by others and we have once again invaders retaking land. There is a similarity to contemporary problems in Israel. The UN plays the role of Cyrus today. Interesting, Isn't it.

JUSTIN, I believe the connection they are trying to make goes back to RUTH. Which is one reason I mentioned making the comparison in this short story. However, you have to compare the Jewish Scriptures with the Christian Old Testament.

Carla

Shall we continue:--"From this motley crowd of fakirs (note the spelling) the Prophets developed into responsible and consistent critics of their age and their people, magnificent street-corner statesmen who were all 'thorough-going anti-clericals,' and 'the most uncompromising of anti-semites, a cross between soothsayers and socialists'.

"We misunderstand them if we take them as prophets in the weather sense. Their predictions were hopes or threats, or pious interpolations, or prognostications after the event. The Prophets themselves did not pretend to foretell, so much as to speak out. They were eloquent members of the Opposition. In one phase they were Tolstoians incensed at industrial exploitation and ecclesiastical chicanery. They came up from the simple countryside, and hurled damnation at the corrupt wealth of the towns."

I remember years ago men standing on street corners in New York City shouting that if we continued as we were going, everything was lost. Most people considered them insane or fanatics.

Robby

Any experience in your life of country boys coming to the big city and being horrified at what they see?
"Amos described himself not as a prophet but as a simple village shepherd. Having left his herds to see Beth-El, he was horrified at the unnatural complexity of the life which he discovered there -- the inequality of fortune, the bitterness of competition, the ruthlessness of exploitation.
"So he 'stood in the gate,' and lashed the conscienceless rich and their luxuries.

"For as much therefore, as your treading is upon the poor, and ye take from him burdens of wheat, ye have built houses of hewn stone. But ye shall not dwell in them. Ye have planted pleasant vineyards, but ye shall not drink wine of them. Woe to them that are at ease in Zion."

Sharon; While Deuteronomy appeared on the spur of the moment in King Josiah's time, there is no reason to think that the rules of that book were new. I think Leviticus may well have been part of an oral tradition that was reduced to writing at a later time. One thought about Durant; I don't think he expressed the idea that Isaiah 2 predicted Christianity.He is clearly aware that the authors of NT sought confirmation in Isaiah. If you saw it in his text, I wish you would point it out to me. The 1930's were a very bigoted time in the US for several religious groups but I don't get the impression from Durant's writing that he gave in to any of that. The couple impress me as thorough scholars.

"I came to Kansas City on a Friday. By Saturday I knew a thing or two." Every city has it's street corner religious figures shouting at passers-by and handing out pamphlets. I come from a city that's spread out over a large area and has wide streets. When I go to Toronto I'm afraid to drive in traffic and terrified of the 18 lane highway through town (nine lanes in each direction including feeder roads). The streets are narrow and the houses close together. I'm a real country bumpkin there.

Justin, I read the green print above. "It was upon the Judaism of post-Exilic days, and upon the world through Judaism and Christianity, that the Prophets left their deepest mark. In Amos and Isaiah is the beginning of both Christianity and socialism." What's a gal to think? I know you asked a serious question but it's late here and I left my mind upstairs.

I wonder what the ancient philosophers, prophets and people in general at that time would think if they knew people two and three thousand years hence would be seriously discussing their beliefs. What would people of the future think about GWB's State of the Union speech. Will he be like Abraham Lincoln or General Custer, killing all kinds of innocent people?

Will Durant was born in North Adams, Massachusetts in 1885. He was educated in Catholic parochial schools and at St. Peter's (Jesuit) College in New Jersey. He taught at Seton Hall, a Catholic college, and entered the seminary there; withdrew in 1911.

From there he entered some radical circles in New York and became a teacher at the Ferrer Modern School, an experiment in libertarian education. He toured Europe in 1912; went back to Ferrer and fell in love with one of his students, Ariel, whom he married in 1913.

He did four years of graduate work at Columbia University in biology and philosophy; did his philosophy work under Woodbridge and Dewey. Durant received a Ph.D. in 1917 and taught Philosophy at Columbia for one year. He began giving lectures on history, literature and philosophy in 1911. This continued for 13 years.

The success of his book The Story of Philosophy in 1926 made it possible for him to retire and concentrate on research for The Story of Civilization with Ariel. They toured Europe in 1921, and went around the world in 1930 to study Egypt, the Near East, India, China and Japan. These travels prepared background for Our Oriental Heritage.

Every night as I passed 41st and 8th ave on the way home from work I encountered a Bible shouter standing on the south corner at the side of the bank. The world was coming to an end then and that was fifty years ago. They passed out magazines with the most alarming headlines on the front cover. City Hall park downtown was always a good place to hear their message of doom. Nostalgic remembrances.

"One of the bitterest predictions seems to have been fulfilled while Amos was still alive -- 'And the houses of ivory shall perish, and the great houses shall have an end.' -- About the same time another prophet threatened Samaria with destruction in one of those myriads of vivid phrases which King James' translators minted for the currency of our speech out of the wealth of the Bible: -- 'The calf of Samaria', said Hosea, 'shall be broken into pieces for they have sown the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind.'

"In 733 the young kingdom of Judah, threatned by Ephraim in alliance with Syria, appealed to Assyria for help. Assyria came, took Damascus, subjected Syria, Tyre and Palestine to tribute, made note of Jewish efforts to secure Egyptian aid, invaded again, captured Samaria, indulged in unprintable diplomatic exchanges with the King of Judah, failed to take Jerusalem, and retired to Nineveh laden with booty and 100,000 Jewish captives doomed to Assyrian slavery."

Does anyone here see "prophets" as being beneficial, in no matter what Civilization? Is their "message of doom" as Justin puts it just the ravings of a madman or does it sometimes pay attention to what they are saying?

Robby

Mal - I appreciated the background information on the Durants. Now I understand a bit more of his philosophy as he studied with the Jesuits. A Durant Born in Massachutetts, were his parents from Quebec by any chance? It would explain his early Catholic education.

Prophets we have always with us. The Bible shouter on the corner is just one of the latter day breed. Sometimes it might help up to pay attention, but how can one separate the wheat from the chaff?

Robby - "Does anyone here see "prophets" as being beneficial, in no matter what Civilization?"

There are prophets and prophets. Of the miriads of prophets, which ones are you referring to? Because I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water. It seems that street corner ravings of madmen are all thrown in together. I heard a lot of sense spoken from the top of soapboxes in the past and sometimes I stop to listen to what they have to say about the state of the world as they see it. If we must be open minded in order to be as objective as possible, should we not listen and think about what they say?

I wonder what Durant meant when he wrote "unprintable diplomatic exchanges". He would have enjoyed today's freedom of speech where everything is printable. "King James translators minted for the currency of our speech out of the wealth the Bible....." Yes.

Eloise, most of the people with French names whom I knew and know in Massachusetts were first generation Americans whose parents had come from parts of Quebec. This includes my one of my brothers-in-law whose name is St. Onge. I don't know this about Will Durant, but it could possibly be true. I want to learn more about the radical groups he joined and about the Ferrer School where he once taught.

It reads so easily - "100,000 Jewish captives doomed to Assyrian slavery". How terrible.

We don't have to go very far right now to find latter day prophets. All we have to do is turn on the television set or radio. There have been and are some prophets in our government and at universities that get my attention.

There is a noted historian at Duke University whose words and predictions I take seriously. He's John Hope Franklin, a professor of African studies and History at the John Hope Franklin Center on the Duke campus. Franklin is black. He wrote that when he was 83 years old he was standing outside a restaurant waiting for friends. A man came up and handed him his keys and said, "Park my car, boy." What Franklin wrote about that incident and predicted if such things were to continue here in the South affected the opinions of many here. Dr. Franklin is close to 100 years old now, I understand, a scholarly man who is very well-respected and who has received many honors, as he should.

Here where I live there are student demonstrations quite frequently with young prophets declaring what they see is wrong with the university system and the rest of the world. After September 11th, students demonstrated at Duke and the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill about maltreatment of Americans of Near Eastern descent by other Americans who treated them as if they were an enemy. Through news coverage, this opened the eyes of many people in this area.

Right now the prophets I notice are those predicting what will happen to the economy and who will win the
Super Bowl.

Mal

Ariel Durant was born Chaya Kaufman in 1898 in Proskurov, Russia to Jewish parents. She immigrated with her mother, 3 sisters and an older brother to the United States in 1901. She would grow up in the streets and learn to fend for herself at an early age. For years Will called her "Puck"; then rechristened her "Ariel". A quote from Ariel Durant to her husband:

"Every once in a while I had to go off and be myself and do my own adventures and I came back and I met people and we exchanged ideas, and meanwhile I was growing all the time. When you met me, Will, I was a tabula rasa, and you knew that it was because I knew nothing that you could make something of me. And because you knew that I was good for you; that my adventurous spirit, my energies, and my desire to know everything; I would fill myself up and I would bring it to you. You were stationary, you had to sit all the time; you had to read the words of books, the great knowledge in the world, and I had to go out and meet people, gather adventures and bring every kind of personality to you. I introduced you, didn’t I, to all the artists that were in Greenwich Village? I brought them to your table – you never knew with whom you were going to eat, did you? I brought them all to you from Woodstock. We had great adventures, but I brought the world to you so that, though you were learning the world from books, you had not had many adventures because you were almost like a little monk. From the age of four to the age of twenty-seven, you knew nothing but Church history, Church philosophy and the word of God, but did you know much about the word of man? Did you know much about what man was around you, or everywhere within us? I was the adventure in your life and I brought you this life, and what did you do for me? You educated me; you quieted my wild blood. You brought unity and meaning to our lives so that now, after 59 years of marriage you have toned me down so that I may be a helpmate to you and I have been so happy to think that, as I believe in the Woman’s Liberation Movement, women should go shoulder-to-shoulder with men."

From Will Durant Online

"It was during this siege of Jerusalem that the prophet Isaiah became one of the great figures of Hebrew history. Less provincial than Amos, he thought in terms of enduring statesmanship. Convinced that little Judah could not resist the imperial power of Assyria, even with the help of distant Egypt, he pled with King Ahaz, and then with King Hezekiah, to remain neutral in the war between Assyria and Ephraim. Like Amos and Hosea he foresaw the fall of Samaria, and the end of the northern kingdom.
"When, however, the Assyrians besieged Jerusalem, Isaiah counseled Hezekiah not to yield. The sudden withdrawal of Sennacherib's hosts seemed to justify him, and for a time his repute was high with the King and the people. Always his advice was to deal justly, and then leave the issue to Yahveh, who would use Assyria as his agent for a time, but in the end would destroy her, too.
"Indeed, all the nations known to Isaiah were, according to him, destined to be struck down by Yahveh in a few chapters (xvi-xxiii). Moab, Syria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Babylon and Tyre are dedicated to destruction -- 'everyone one shall howl'.

"This ardor for ruination, this litany of curses, mars Isaiah's book, as it mars all the prophetic literature of the Bible."

Any ideas as why Durant considers the "ardor of ruination and litany of curses" as "marring the prophetic literature of the Bible?"

Robby

This Link to ISAIAH is a repeat but, now that we have talked about some prophets, helps us to see their place during the time of the First Temple.

Robby

Interesting discussion about PROPHETS AND PROPHECY.

In material from Isaiah, here is some of what Durant defines as "eloquence" and "passages that are among the peaks of the world's prose":--

"The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people and the princes thereof. For ye have eaten up the vineyard. The spoil of the poor is in your houses. What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor?

"Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, until there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!

"Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees to turn aside the needy from justice, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless. And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from afar? To whom will ye flee for help, and where will ye leave your glory?"

As you hear these cries for help poured out 2,800 years ago, do they in your ears echo any of the cries being heard today?

Robby

They certainly echo mine.

Mal

Robbie, I really appreciate some of the links you have posted. It happens that my own personal study is in a little book called Isaiah's Prophecy. Your links enhance this study and I plan to share them with my friends.

Louise:--I'm glad that works out well for you. What are some of your views concerning the prophecies that Isaiah gave? Please continue to share your thoughts in that area and others with the rest of us here.

Robby

Sounds to me (Isaiah) like we're in a heap of trouble.

I'm not quite following you, SWN. What did you have in mind?

Robby

It seems to me that present day prophets are not religous but are economists, sociologist and political and environmental scientists. They understand today's social and physical environment, draw lessons from the past and make predictions.

I haven't noticed that the prominent, religious self-elected leaders of the western world have been particulary correct. They have become rich by scaring people.

Justin: I will get to your question about Deuteronomy. I haven't forgotten - just haven't had time.

Durant now talks to us about a very well-known section of the Bible."Isaiah concludes by formulating the Messianic hope -- the trust of the Jews in some Redeemer who will end their political divisions, their subjection, and their misery, and bring an era of universal brotherhood and peace:---

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel... For unto us a child is born. And the government shall be upon his shoulder. And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace... With righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth... The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and fatling together. And a little child shall lead them...And they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Because so many of us know those verses and because we would therefore find ourselves thinking of Christianity, let us continue to hold our beliefs to ourselves -- or at least to share them without proselytizing. Let us also keep in mind the sources of the material to which the Links lead us. We may believe those sources -- or we may not. That is our prerogative.

It might help for us to think of the previous posts of Durant's material and to visualize the turmoil Judea was undergoing that period 750 years B.C.E.

Robby

Here is a LINK speaking of the prophecy.

Robby

Here is ANOTHER LINK regarding the prophecy.

Robby

Isaiah prophetized about multinationals even this early on.

When I shop in a mega store chain I prevent small local store owners from making a living because their prices are higher. Multinationals eliminate competition by first cutting prices and costs. Because of their wealth, their mega profits make them into a new Monarchy. Is that wealth distributed back to the poor, where it came from in the first place? The food drops for the war ravaged Afghans is just a drop in the bucket compared with the wealth of multinationals. If the IMF erased foreign debt, that would be a start in wealth distribution.

Large Stock Market firms and banks have merged making sure that the money is in the same pocket. Our savings are being used for the expansion of large companies. I would like to know if all that is not a collusion between the governments, the banks and the business community. I see a pattern developing that is not new in history. It happened in ancient history several times before is is not a nice picture of what the future has in store for us.

Matthew was writing in Greek and substituted a word for "ha’almah" which doesn't mean the same thing Isaiah said. Well, that sure is interesting. It more or less makes a mess out of a lot of religious music I've sung from choir lofts in a lot of churches in several states. As they say in my hometown, "Whaddya know!"

Mal

Please help me to relate these last posts to Isaiah 2,750 years ago.

Robby

Robby, I'll delete mine. I was responding to Eloise and got carried away! sorry LOL

Robby, your post #824 made me think of how we are redoing the same mistakes as our ancestors. "As you hear these cries for help poured out 2,800 years ago, do they in your ears echo any of the cries being heard today?"

Who caused the poverty if it is not the wealthy? Sorry if I was digressing too far from where we are in S of C.

I emailed you a few times re: List of Participants and got no answer is your email address: rbiallok@earthlink.com?

Robby:

I don't know if you were referring to me and my post. Many oratorios were written about what Isaiah said. I have sung some of them; solos, too. According to one of your links, Matthew substituted the Greek word "parthenos", often meaning "virgin" for "ha’almah", which means "young girl". With young girl used instead of virgin, the words of the music take on a different meaning. It is this to which I referred.

Mal

C'mon folks -- don't get too worked up when I suggest that we're a bit off the path. That's my job, you know!! And it might not always be "you" -- it might be the other person.

Regarding my email --

Problem one - My computer had a virus, all sorts of troubles arose, and my guru has finally cleaned it out (I hope)>
Problem two - I said my new email was earthlink.com -- I made a mistake. It is earthlink.net If you click onto my name, it should get to me.

All that aside, what's new in Judea?

Robby

"Amos and Isaiah are the source of the early Jewish conception of a Messiah who would inaugurate a dictatorship of the dispossessed among mankind. They began -- in a military age -- the exaltation of those virtues of simplicity and gentleness, of cooperation and friendliness, which Jesus was to make a vital element in his creed.
"They were the first to undertake the heavy task of reforming the God of Hosts into a God of Love. They conscripted Yahveh for humanitariansim.
"It was they who lighted the torch of the Reformation. It was their fierce and intolerant virtue that formed the Puritans.
"Their moral philosophy was based upon a theory that the righteous man will prosper, and the wicked will be struck down. The prophets loved justice, and called for an end to the tribal limitations of morality.

"They offered to the unfortunate of the earth a vision of brotherhood that became the precious and unforgotten heritage of many generations."

Reactions, anyone?

Robby

1. St. Peter's College is in Jersey City, New Jersey.

2. Our bank savings are made available to large and small companies so they will have a source of funds when money is needed. As a result of this use of our savings we earn interest and are in most cases very glad to receive a return for the use of our savings.

3. Isaiah came in two parts. The first Isaiah made use of the big punishing God to put the politicians on the track he thought was right. He failed to finish the book and another author, anonymous, finished the work. This second Isaiah is responsible for introducing the Jews to a Good God as well as to the possibility of a redeemer.He brings this redeemer to the Jews of 800-750 out of the loins of a virgin. It was clear to this second Isaiah that the Jews in captivity needed hope rather than punishment.

4. When Ezekiell comes along he brings back the mean old god while describing Jerusalem and Samaria as whores. Ezekial goes so far as marry god to the whores. He is dealing in metaphor but the connection is useful to explain the strong relationship between God and the chosen cities.

Reading Mal's post and Robby's link on this question of Parthenos makes me want to investigate before saying bald faced that Isaiah described a virgin birth for the redeemder. I did not realize the Septuagint was so sloppy a translation. The Eastern Orthodox Church uses it. An earlier work would be cleaner but I was not sure such a Bible existed.

"As the people fell away from the worship of Yahveh to the adoration of alien gods, the priests began to wonder whether the time had not come to make a final stand against the disintegration of the national faith. Taking a leaf from the Prophets, who attributed to Yahveh the passionate convictions of their own souls, they resolved to issue to the people a communication from God himself, a code of laws tht would reinvigorate the moral life of the nation, and would at the same time attract that support of the Prophets by embodying the less extrme of their ideas.
"They readily won King Josiah to their plan. About the eighteenth year of his reign the priest Hilikiah announced to the King that he had 'found' in the secret archives of the Temple an astonishing scroll in which the great Moses himself, at the direct direction of Yahveh, had settled once and for all those problems of history and conduct that were being so hotly debated by prophets and priests.

"The discovery made a great stir. Josiah called the elders of Judah to the Temple, and there read to them the 'Book of the Covenant' in the presence (we are told) of thousands of people. Then he solemnly swore that he would henceforth abide by the laws of this book, and 'he caused all that were present to stand to it.'"

Interesting events happening here:--

1 - We have noted throughout our readings of Sumeria, Egypt, and Babylonia that the power of the priests was extraordinary.
2 - We learn here in Judea that the term "prophet" did not mean someone who necessarily foretold the future, but that a Prophet was someone who examined his own culture, found disturbing actions, and warned the populace to carefully observe their leaders.
3 - The priests in Judea at that time decided that 'if you can't beat them, then join them'.
4 - The priests publicize a "Covenant" which embodies some of the Prophets' ideas.

What are you folks seeing happening here? Sound familiar in any other areas?

Robby

It sounds as if this was a very tough time for Judea. Something was needed to draw people together and unite them to one central idea. It seems to me that the Book of the Covenant was the first step toward unification.

Durant tells us that we do not know exactly what was in the Book of the Covenant, but King Josiah acted on what was in it by "casting out of the temple of the Lord all the vessels that were made for Baal." The term "Baal" covers all the gods of fertility and nature of ancient Semitic people, I've read. Josiah also "smashed the altars that Solomon had built for Chemosh, Milcom and Astarte." Astarte has been around for a long time, and it must have been difficult to convert people away from worshiping that god.

As I see it, the battles that ensued because of this immense effort to bring people together were the greatest advance toward what we now call civilization that had occurred since the beginning of time. The end result of these turmoils was the religion that is now known as Judaism and another religion called Christianity, both of which influenced belief and behavior of people in the past and influence them now.

Mal

Mal says:--"As I see it, the battles that ensued because of this immense effort to bring people together were the greatest advance toward what we now call civilization that had occurred since the beginning of time."

That's a powerful statement! Any reactions from you folks?

Robby

We have reached a point in our advanced American civilization where our scientific successes could be used against us at this time in this generation, by jealous, dis-gruntled nations, who feel left out of their piece of the pie.

Today's newspapers warn about the dangers involved in the possible attack on our Nuclear Power Plants by the "have not nations" that now have a nuclear capability that could start a war that could wipe out our planet and all future civilizations.

When the prophets Amos and Isaiah were pointing out the necessity of cooperation, friendliness and gentleness between all tribes and nations, they were really pointing out the Utopia that could result to all future civilizations by following this admonition.

Moses was also striving for a unification of all the tribes with the Ark of the Covenant.

A group of college students were recently asked to list what they thought were the present and past "Seven Wonders of the World" that had resulted from all the advances of past civilizations.

Though there was some disagreement, the following got the most votes:

1. Egypt's Great Pyramids 2. Taj Mahal 3. Grand Canyon 4. Panama Canal 5. Empire State Building 6. St. Peter's Basilica 7. China's Great Wall

While gathering the votes, the teacher noted that one quiet student hadn't turned in her paper yet. So she asked the girl if she was having trouble with her list. The girl replied, "Yes, a little. I couldn't quite make up my mind because there were so many." The teacher said, "Well, tell us what you have, and maybe we can help."

The girl hesitated, then read, "I think the Seven Wonders of the World are: 1. to touch 2. to taste 3. to see 4. to hear 5. to feel 6. to laugh 7. and to love and be loved ".

Those things we overlook as simple and "ordinary", are truly wondrous in every age. in every civilization, past, present and future, if we have one.

Pat

One think about the book of Isaiah is that it was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls which were found in 1947. This was actually older than the Hebrew used fo provide the modern translations we use. What is remarkable is that there are only minor variations in the spelling and grammar. Those ancient copyists were really careful.

Patrick, i think I like that girls choices for the 7 wonders of the world. The manmade ones can easily be destroyed just like Babylon's wonders. Even the naural ones can be changed or destroyed.

I often wonder if early civilizations had "fringe group" prophets that never got any press.
In this age of instant knowledge via print, radio, television and computer, we learn of every wacko's escapades.

The ones that come to mind right off the bat are Jim Jones, who was charismatic enough to get 900 people to die for his warped cause. Or Bo & Peep, who convinced people to commit suicide in order to catch a ride on a comet. I kind of think there always were and will always be individuals capable of seducing a certain segment of the population.

Isaiah and Ezekiel are prophetic books and much of the prophecy in Ezekiel relates to the twentieth and twentyfirst centuries. I find these two books two of the most exciting in the old Testament.

I am just lurking at the moment not having too much time to read. I am 100 posts behind.

Carolyn

Almah in Hebrew means a young woman of childbearing age. The Greeks translated it as virgin. It is important to know that the Greeks complimented their heroes by saying their mothers were virgins when they were born. Alexander the Great's mother got pregnant when a thunder bolt struck her in the stomach so Philip of Macedon was not his father. She was a virgin when he was born.

As for the multinationals, I gather Enron didn't pay taxes for the past 10 years. Talk about having friends in high places.

I know we haven't gotten to Christianity yet but Lonex on the Relgious Issues forum gave this awesome link for the letters of Pontius Pilate. http://members.tripod.com/~owen_eir/pilate.html > How did these letters survive two thousand years? And how human, how real the people are that he describes. He even had a wife that shoppped til she dropped. And he had to keep up appearances by having digs that rivalled Herold's palace.

Sharon, I tried to access your link, but it gave a not found message.

Dawn: Try again. I copied it wrong the first time.

Modern prophets include Sam Donaldson and other journalists (earlier there was Drew Pearson) who probe and expose and pass on their thoughts to us usually warning us to keep an eye on this or that politician. The prophets who chased after Billy C. ( non partisan comment)were just as relentless in the gate as were Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Ezekial. The British Loyal oposition and the American party in the minority are exercising a similar function.These guys are gentlemen rebels who serve the modern function of a prophet as I see it. None of them foretell just as none of the prophets foretold. The predictive aspect of the prophets was added, as I understand it, by the NT authors who followed.

Durant continues:--"We do not know just what this 'Book of the Covenant' was. It may have been Exodus xx-xxiii, or it may have been Deuteronomy. We need not suppose that it had been invented on the spur of the situation. It merely formulated, and put into writing, decrees, demands and exhortations which for centuries had emanated from the prophets and the Temple.

"In any event, those who heard the reading, and even those who only heard of it, were deeply impressed. Josiah took advantage of this mood to raid the altars of Yahveh's rivals in Judah. He cast 'out of the temple of the Lord all the vessels that were made for Baal'. He put down the idolatrous priests, and 'them also that burned incense unto Baal', to the sun, and to the moon, and 'to the planets'. He smashed the altars that Solomon had built for Chemosh, MIlcom and Asarte."

If memory serves me correctly -- most of us here went through Sumeria, Egypt, Babylonia, and Assyria -- and this is the first case where the King dared to defy the priests. I wonder what gave him the courage. Just what was different from previous civilizations?

Robby

Justin: Here is a sort of answer to your question about Deuteronomy from a couple of days ago. Follow the links. It is heavy but interesting reading. Deuteronomy seems to have appeared around the time of King Josiah and is based on earlier texts. http://www.dabar.org/Critical/McGarvey-Dt-3.htm >

Here is a LINK to some comments about Exodus.

Robby

Here is the CHRONICLED LIFE of King Josiah.

Robby

They look like a hoax but a fun hoax. They are so interesting to read. Imagine, Pilate with a wife who shops till she drops. My wife was thrilled. She knew the practice was ancient.

Your Deuteronomy link was most helpful. I suppose it's possible that Deuteronomy was the first book published.That would be about 650 BCE if they carried it into captivity. The rest must have come in the centuries that followed. I spent this afternoon in Borders reading a copy of the Septuagint with English on one side of the page and Greek on the other. I also skimed some works teaching Biblical Hebrew. Is there a modern version of Hebrew spoken in Israel today?

EMAZING TIP of the Day (Emazing.com)

Jewish Culture Tip of the Day
Saturday February 2, 2002

Moses was born on the seventh day of the Hebrew month of Adar and he died on that very same day. Legend has it that very righteous people die on the day of their birthday to show that their lives are complete and full to the very end. The month of Adar is the month of the festival of Purim, which is described in the book of Esther. The wicked Haman drew lots (purim) in order to find the time to destroy the Jews and was delighted to draw the date of the birth of Moses, but the tables were turned on him by the righteous Mordecai and his niece Esther.

Purim falls on the 27th at night this year.

To some of you Lurkers who feel that you are "out of your depth" and are afraid to post because you have "nothing to say," keep in mind the qualifications of your "highly educated" Discussion Leader:--
1 - I do not speak or write Hebrew.
2 - I do not speak or write Greek.
3 - I am not Jewish.
4 - I have read the Bible but cannot say I have "studied" it.
5 - I have never visited Israel or any other part of the Near East.
6 - I don't even know what the "Septuagint" is, much less having read it.
7 - I had no idea that there was a "modern" Hebrew as opposed to an "ancient" Hebrew.
8 - When I write the names of the various Ancient Judea kings, prophets, etc., I have to copy them very carefully, letter by letter, out of Durant's book.
LURKERS, UNITE!!
Let us come briefly out of the woodwork to tell the knowledgeable people here that even though we have "nothing to offer" (which may not be true), that nevertheless we have come to realize much more than ever before the place of the Jewish people in the progress of Civilization.
Robby

How should we go about protecting the edifices built thousands of years ago? This OPINION PIECE published this morning gives some thoughts.

Robby

"All this national decay, all this weakening of the state, this obviously imminent subjection of Judah to Babylon, were, it seemed to Jeremiah, Yahveh's hand laid upon the Jews in punishment for their sins. -- 'Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth, and I will pardon it.' -- Everywhere iniquity ruled, and sex ran riot. Men 'were as fed horses in the morning. Every one neighed after his neighbor's wife.'
"When the Babylonians besieged Jerusalem, the rich men of the city, to propitiate Yahveh, released their Hebrew slaves. But when for a time the siege was raised, and the danger seemed past, the rich apprehended their former slaves, and forced them into their old bondage.
"It was a summary of human history that Jeremiah could not bear silently. Like the other Prophets, he denounced those hyocrites who with pious faces brought to the Temple some part of the gains they had made from grinding the faces of the poor. The Lord, he reminded them, in the eternal lesson of all finer religion, asked not for sacrifice but for justice. The priests and the prophets, he thinks, are almost as false and corrupt as the merchants. They, too, like the people, need to be morally reborn, to be (in Jeremiah's strange phrase) circumcised in the spirit as well as in the flesh.
"'Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart.'
"Jeremiah cursed the Jews savagely, and took some delight in picturing the ruin of all who would not heed him."
The constant question in this discussion group as we move from Civilization to Civilization -- Has Mankind evolved from its Primitive roots?

Robby

I can't stay long because my cable access is not working, and I have to pay for the phone call that got me here on my computer's modem through AOL.

I do want to add something to Robby's Post # 862. I read the Bible (sort of) when I was a kid over a period of a few years. I have also read some of the Torah and the Qur'an (sort of). I'm not Jewish, either, nor do I speak Greek or Hebrew or any other language except English very well, though I am able to read a few. I know a linguist, who has told me her experience as a translator has taught her that translations of anything do not literally transfer the original word of the author to the translation. Therefore, because of what she told me, I think it's a good idea (for me, anyway) not to accept translations as literal truth.

I also do many searches on the web through the search engine Google. It is through searches of references I read in Our Oriental Heritage that I increase what I've learned in the past and find sites to which I link here.

You own all the knowledge available on your computer, just as I do, if you'd search for it and find it. Believe me, there's a lot, more than I ever could research.

Last night, for example, I found translations, including one in English, of the Tanach, the Hebrew Bible, at
The Tanach. I feel certain that this will help me to understand better what we're reading about and discussing here.

"Has Mankind evolved from its Primitive roots?" Let's just say we have evolved some and are continuing to evolve (I hope).

Mal

Robby - Today I am very busy, but not enough to stop me from reading, "lurking". It does take ma a long time to write something I like so I will post when I am satisfied with it. Not today. I certainly would like to have other lurker's opinion on what we learn here. What I know has been gathered from life's experience rather than in class. I can't write anything other than my deep convinctions, but I never know how it will be received until it is posted.

Mal - Let me add that translation 'tries' to convey the thought behind the words, but the words sometimes don't have any exact translation so the thought is sometimes off-line a bit. In my experience with French and English, I can only say that they each offer their own culture in translation. So I am never surprised when some slight meanings is off a bit in one language to the other. It should be the same for any other language. The importance is what is conveyed in the whole work, not just words here and there.

A small precision for those not speaking Hebrew: in Mal's site about Tanach translation, Hashem means ha =the, shem = name. The name, since God's name is not meant to be pronounced.

Yes, we do evolve. Does it mean we are better, or more advanced? I am not sure about that. But life means changes, means evolving. It is so in plants, in animals, in the climate, everywhere, it is so for human beings too. When a civilization becomes static it tends to die off or to be overcome by a more active one.

The more we advance the more we become aware how ruthless, how intolerant we are.

Bubble:--As somene who is not Jewish, I am confused as to how one can refer to God without using that term unless the context is obvious.

And to go a bit further, it is my understanding that in English, one would write G-d rather than God. What about other languages? Dieu? Dios?

I am so pleased that no one here is proselytizing but I am asking to be educated so that I can understand the thinking of the Hebrew people, especially in ancient times.

Robby

If one called God The One, would you not understand who is meant? I read somewhere that He was called The Verb also since language was his gift to humankind. One can call him by any of his attributes, but not give him a name. I suppose it is a way to avoid adoration, idolatry, like the interdiction to have images.

This latest explains why very orthodox people do not own or watch televisions and do not allow to photograph them. They take the scriptures very literally.

On French God is usually known as L'Eternel, the Eternel One. I am not familiar with the Spanish name, sorry, since I never had a talk on religion in that language.My husband says that at home in Turkey, in Ladino, they used to say El ke no se puede nombrar = the One who cannot be named.

Thank you, Bubble. And how do Orthodox people write the name G-d in foreign languages? The French word, Dieu, for example, has three vowels.

Robby

In French? I suppose it would be written as D. But mostly it would be l'Eternel. This would be unequivocal.

God, Elohim in Hebrew, is spelled Elokim by the very religious, so as to respect the commandment and still be understandable. This word by the way is a plural: the ending -im is similar to the -s plural in English. It could mean that God is He and She at the same time? My interpretation if course.

It is only since I came to Israel that I was aware of orthodoxy and that I learned Hebrew. Now, as in ancient time, there is a vast array of customs, almost of sects you could say. Remember the Samaritans and the Pharisees (sp?)? It is more so today because since the exile, the different communities had their ways of praying, and their own rituals. The Samaritan community is still alive today and they keep very much to themselves, almost not marrying outside. Many of the rites practiced are exactly as described in ancient times, especially the Passover celebration.

Thank you so very much, Bubble, for all that info. It was certainly helpful, to me at least. And putting that together with what Durant has been telling us about all the previous Civilizations has made it even more meaningful to me. Thank you.

Robby

"Jeremiah cursed the Jews savagely, and took some delight in picturing the ruin of all who would not heed him. Time and again he predicted the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity in Babylon, and wept over the doomed city (whom he called the daughter of Zion).
"To the "princes" of Zedekiah's court all this seemed sheer treason. It was dividing the Jews in counsel and spirit in the very hour of war. Jeremiah tantalized them by carrying a wooden yoke around his neck, explaining that all Judah must submit -- the more peaceably the better -- to the yoke of Babylon. And when Hananiah tore this yoke away, Jeremiah cried out that Yahveh wold make yokes of iron for all the Jews. The priests tried to stop him by putting his head into the stocks, but from even that position, he continued to denounce them.
"They arraigned him in the Temple, and wished to kill him, but through some friend among the priests he escaped. Then the princes arrested him, and lowered him by ropes into a dungeon filled with mire, but Zedekiah had him raised to milder imprisonment in the palace court.

"There the Babylonians found him when Jerusalem fell. On Nebuchadrezzar's orders they treated him well, and exempted him from the general exile."

I am wondering what percentage of people today have such courage to stand up against the "powers that be".

Robby

Not many... the fanatics? I suppose it takes a certain courage to make of yourself a human bomb?

I do not seem to be able to grasp that.

I am wondering what percentage of people today have such courage to stand up against the "powers that be".

I think modern day "whistle blowers" must have the courage to stand up against giant corporations. Right against might....takes courage to do that.

I think in contemporary times we see not only the fanatics (as mentioned by Sea Bubble), but also those who have lost hope for themselves, their families and their society as a whole. Becoming a "time bomb" and wanting to harm oneself, as well as others, is not just a current trend for politically inclined youth, but also a means of ending the despair with which one lives on a daily basis.

For example, I worry about the people who are in the midst of terror -those men and women who are the Emergency Medical Service (EMS) personnel. Not that they themselves would normally turn to becoming a human bomb, but that they are in the midst of that type of horror and tragedy daily. The human mind is a wonderful thing, but there is always the point at which the brain simply says "No More." From no sane person's standpoint could one argue that then turning to violence (towards oneself or others) will alleviate the pain of depression and despair, but then people who experience these extremes are often not "logical, rational or sane" as the words are generally known. I've worked previously in conflicts zones overseas, dealt with tramuma victims and often come across people who explain their actions (or those they witnessed) by saying simply "I/we just wanted the pain to end." They were not necessarily ALL involved in political statements, but were in positions where they had no economic or political clout to change things in their lives or in their communities. Of course, there is also the gullibility of youth (as in the case of the young Palestinian woman who became a martyr last week). And although her family is proud of her actions, I am concerned that other young women from similar impoverished backgrounds will follow her lead. I don't know whether the ancient women in the regions we have been reading about would have purposely killed themselves in large numbers for "political causes" but I suspect that if their families were threatened severely and their men could not fight, the women would have fought collectively (and cunningly) and caused great damage. For those of us who abhor violence in any form, this is hard to think about. But it's part of life - for the ancients as well as in the 21st century.

It's not easy to follow Mahlia's poignant post, but I was wondering if anybody else here has stood up to the "powers that be" and fought the "system" in small ways because they knew they were right.

When I first moved to Florida twenty years ago, I had a Massachusetts license plate on my car. At that time permits for parking privileges were not standardized, and Massachusetts did not have the tags to be placed on the rear license plate that Florida did. I went to the mall one day with a friend and parked in a handicapped spot. When I came out I saw a policeman put a ticket on the windshield of my car, then drive away. I got in my car and chased that policeman around the mall until I finally caught him; got out of my car and told him it was obvious that I'm handicapped, so why was he ticketing my car? He told me about the tags and started to walk away. I said, "No, you can't do this, sir." He stared at me; then ripped up the ticket he had given to me and drove away. The person I was with said it was really funny to watch a little five foot tall woman standing up to a stocky policeman over six feet tall.

Another time in New York, a few years earlier, I was refused an apartment because of my handicap. The landlord made the mistake of telling me that was the reason he wouldn't rent me the place in front of a witness. I went to the Commission of Human Rights, and through that agency and its help, the landlord was forced to give me the apartment. It was a bitter victory for me because the landlord wouldn't leave me alone from the day I moved in. If I hadn't found a better place, I wouldn't have thought twice about suing him for harrassment.

I figure that if you really believe in something and know you're right, standing up to the powers that be is not something to hesitate about. That includes small things like the incidents I've described and the big things, too. There's more than one politician I've supported and worked hard for because I knew he or she would fight the system for a just cause that they, I and others believed was right.

Mal

"In Jeremiah's old age, says orthodox tradition, he wrote his 'Lamentations,' the most eloquent of all the books of the Old Testament. He mourned now the completeness of his triumph and the desolation of Jerusalem, and raised to heaven the unanswerable questions of Job:--

'How doth the city sit solitary that was full of people! How she is become as a widow! She that was great among the nations, and princes among the provinces, how is she become tributary!...Is it nothing to you, all ye tht pass by? Behold, and see if there be any sorrow like unto my sorrow...'"

Apparently Jeremiah "sang the same song" his entire adult life and it had no effect whatsoever upon the populace.

Robby

Mahlia's #877 - What you say so well is slowly becoming common place as we see it so often happening in the news. Are we, in our comfort, enough aware that there is only so much people can bear before they speak out in such a violent manner?

Your responses to injustice are commendable. It is interesting that you grasp the "fight" response on a personal level but look for an "alternative" on the national level.

I am pleased that I was able to provide you with ammunition in your effort to overcome the reluctance of lurkers to participate.

The Septuagint is one of the earliest translations of the Bible. Jews were growing in number in Alexandria. They had lost the power to read Hebrew and Aramaic. A committee of seventy scholars in Alexandria translated the Bible into Greek so those Jews could read the Law. Septuagint as you know means Seventy.

MAL - sorry about the awkwardness of #877. Thought I had hit the returns often enough for natural paragraphs, but guess not.

ELOISE - yes, I think our comfort levels in the West definitely "cushion" us against thinking about some of the horrors that are common everyday occurences in other global regions and can wipe out large segments of a society in times of civil strife (i.e. Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, East Congo, etc.)

In the West, we have marvelous medical treatments, research that is heavily funded and ongoing, hospitals and other medical facilities that offer modern regular care, hospices for the temrinally ill, organ transplants on a regular basis and practical nursing assistance at home when needed. Our insurance coverage is great for some, not so good for too many, and absolutely non-existent for too many. But the ravages of disease and despair, family extinction from continued warfare, the trauma of repeated rapes of women in their 60's and 70's common in Asia and Africa)and children of both sexes as young as 4 years old, beheadings, the loss of limbs, eyes or hearing from land mines is NOT common in the West.

We have dealt with the heinous bombing of the Municipal Building in Oklahoma City; the World Trade Center a few years ago; and now Sept 11th. They are ENORMOUS tragedies for us, but they don't occur every day (thanks God!) The sight of blood and mangled bodies is NOT a common sight for the average citizen. Soldiers with machine guns at the ready, rifles loaded and cocked, or even side arms is NOT a common sight except on military installations. But the world is changing and with those changes comes the harsh reality that we in the West are not privy on a regular basis to many of the atrocities that are every day occurrences in the rest of the world.

Yes, we are shelted as a society; yes, we have many, many more resources in our society to draw upon for assistance and comfort(even if we are the most economically humble folks); yes, we enjoy (and expect) FREEDOM of speech and movement and the press; and yes, we will be shocked to the marrow of our bones (as Pres. Bush and Secretary Rumsfeld have warned) when we realize (REALLY realize) that life HAS CHANGED - not just for those who lost their lives in the previous terrorist attacks in the USA or in our Missions overseas and their families - but for all citizens.

And it is this change that some cannot/will not be able to handle. Some won't want to and continue to deny; others will not have the emotional or psychological strength to do so; and still others will just not want to. By nature, I'm an optimist and generally find the good about most situations. But I'm also a realist and from my own personal experience working with and seving international communities throughout a long professional career, I know first-hand that life the way we in the West have known it will be different.

Hope my paragraphs work this time!

Mahlia says:--"We are sheltered as a society. We will be shocked to the marrow of our bones when we realize (REALLY realize) that life HAS CHANGED for all citizens. And it is this change that some cannot/will not be able to handle. Some won't want to and continue to deny."

This sounds so similar to what Jeremiah said 2,750 years agoand the reaction of the populace also sounds the same.

Robby

Robby compares you to the prophet Jeremiah. You are standing in the gate warning us of change. I don't have very much confidence in Bush and Rumsfeld to grasp the nature of the changes we should expect. If you see changes coming, tell us what you think will occur.

You seem to be suggesting an expansion of East-West conflict. I think we must expect more terrorist raids, some similar to those experienced in Israel, perhaps. Israel has not moved to wipe out the threat. It fights piecemeal in hope of saving lives.

The Palestinians probably feel as the Jews did returning to Judea and the Northern province in the time of Cyrus to find their lands taken over by others.

The US under Bush will not delay in removing the threat of terrorism from the world. We may, at the same time, do as we have in the past with programs like the Marshall plan which will serve to alleviate some of the pain.

I can't thank you enough for your link to Tanach. I looked for it yesterday at Borders and was disappointed. In Genesis 1 we come upon the first of the differences. G_d created man and woman in one form-hermaphroditically. Robby, forgive me. These things can't be helped.

Justin - Please translate your post 886 in plain English so readers like me can understand? "hermaphroditically"???

Justin:--Re your Post 885. We refrain in this discussion group from comments about current political figures.

Robby

"It was the function of the unknown author who undertook to complete the Book of Isaiah to restate the religion of Israel for this backsliding generation. And it was his distinction, in restating it, to lift it to the loftiest plane that any religion had yet reached amid all the faiths of the Near East.
"While Buddha in India was preaching the death of desire, and Confucius in China was formulating wisdom for his people, this 'Second Isaiah,' in majestic and luminous prose, announced to the exiled Jews the first clear revelation of monotheism, and offered them a new god, infinitely richer in 'lovingkindness' and tender mercy than the bitter Yalveh even of the First Isaiah.

"This greatest of Prophets announced his mission -- no longer to curse the people for their sins, but to bring them hope in their bondage. He has discovered that Yahveh is not a god of war and vengeance, but a loving father. The discovery fills him with happiness, and inspires him to magnificent songs."

We have been ever so gradually watching the march toward "Civilization." We have been observing the gods of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylonia, and Assyria -- all of whom, if I have been understanding correctly, have been "mean tyrants" in one form or another -- gods that used fear to lead the populace toward the practice of religion. Now -- if I am seeing this "progress" rightly -- two major changes are being made. First - a move from numeous gods to one god. Secondly - a move from this one god being a fearful one to a loving one.

Would you folks here see this as a major change in the progress of Mankind?

Robby

If participants here wish, we can temporarily close out this Discussion Group, go over to the Political Folder and discuss what has been happening in America this past generation or two.

Perhaps we have come to the end of our interest in "Our Oriental Heritage."

Robby

Malryn, I wish I believed (1) that the kind of equity you long for was possible in this world and (2) that it would make for peace it we had it. You remember the Bible story about Cain and Abel. Cain slew Abel because his "offering found more favor with God." I fear that envy and greed have even more to do with the evil in this world than the inequity you deplore. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Humans are by nature competitive, and by nature covetous and jealous. The theory behind communism (from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is beautiful, but the strong took over and the weak perished.

And no, I don't think the human race has made much progress out of barbarism. Anybody who doesn't believe that soldiers of all armies commit atrocities, not just the enemy's, isn't being realistic. It was ever thus. The difference is that it was once acclaimed as righteous revenge, and now most people deplore it, at least in our country.

Malryn, I wish I believed (1) that the kind of equity you long for was possible in this world and (2) that it would make for peace it we had it. You remember the Bible story about Cain and Abel. Cain slew Abel because his "offering found more favor with God." I fear that envy and greed have even more to do with the evil in this world than the inequity you deplore. Yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Humans are by nature competitive, and by nature covetous and jealous. The theory behind communism (from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is beautiful, but the strong took over and the weak perished under this doctrine.

And no, I don't think the human race has made much progress out of barbarism. Anybody who doesn't believe that soldiers of all armies commit atrocities, not just the enemy's, isn't being realistic. It was ever thus. The difference is that it was once acclaimed as righteous revenge, and now most people deplore it, at least in our country.

Any comments on the quote above which begins "Their greatest contemporary influence...?"

Robby

I said yesterday "As I see it, the battles that ensued because of this immense effort to bring people together were the greatest advance toward what we now call civilization that had occurred since the beginning of time. The end result of these turmoils was the religion that is now known as Judaism and another religion called Christianity, both of which influenced belief and behavior of people in the past and influence them now."

Part of the advance that was made was the writing of the Bible: books of laws, codes of behavior and lessons to which people adhere today.

Mal

I have often wondered, Mal. Most of us grew up with the King James version (Elizabethan English) of the Bible. Since then there have been versions with more modern vernacular. Prior to the time of King James, the Bible was written in other languages and dialects -- not just Aramaic, or Greek, or Hebrew.
What, then, causes Durant to say that the greatest influence of the Jews of that time was "the writing of the Bible?"
Robby

Robby, I think Durant was referring to the Tanach, the Hebrew Bible, don't you? That's why I was pleased I found the English translation in the site I linked earlier.

Mal

Sorry about the reference to current political leaders. I thought it might slip by you because I was responding to a previous post. I will be careful next time.

Sorry about that. The term means two genders in one form.

I have been wondering why the Code of Hammurabi didn't get equal, if not more, credit for such influence.

Robby

And my apologies, too, Robby. My purpose in posting the comments about contemporary society was to do just what you recognized: remind us that the events of today were so very similar to those of Jeremiah's and the reactions of our society were a re-run of what his had been.

Occasionally, we all remind ourselves that nothing is really new in life; that all atrocities have been committed in earlier centuries by people who thought of themselves as "civilized" and contributing towards the strengthening of their own societies in their own time. Our leaders, just as those in ancient times, are often not as forthcoming with their constituents as the citizens would like or speak in such a way that is not understood by all. Sometimes their words are misunderstood altogether (just like the earlier examples of Greek words replacing Hebrew and changing the intended meaning of the original). Especially here in Washington, "Government-speak" can almost be an entirely different language from converstional English and occasionally requires a skilled "interpreter or translator" to get the actual meaning across. Not everyone is experiened in dealing with military language (and its real meaning) - just as in the ancient period when several armies led by aligned or non-aligned forces converged. Conquerors may/may not speak the language of the land which they control and meanings (especially political and cultural) are often misunderstood or lost altogether.

So we can think of some of our National leaders "standing in the Gate" and delivering warnings, interpretations or explanations, while at other times we can look to our religious leaders of various faiths to caution against "abominations against the Lord" and "God's punishment" levied on the unbelievers. We just use more "techno-talk" and more sophisticated armaments than did our ancestors, but the basics are the same. Tonight I heard an Israeli Jew and a Palestinian Christian speak about being "human and therefore we shoudl be able to stop the violence in Israel - together as humans - STOP THE VIOLENCE." We have not moved very far at all in our "civilization towards each other."

One thing that strikes me forcibly as we examine these various ancient civilizations is the very small geographic area we are calling the Near East. Babylonia was fighting with Assyria -- Judea was fighting with Babylonia -- Egypt was going after them both -- and now Persia looms on the horizon. Each of them, after being the conqueror, calling themselves the "conqueror of the world."
Robby

If there is to be change, I would like to see if for the better. the history we have seen may make it seem to be not so, but I have hope anyway. The United States has gone through many trying times and has always benefited and grown. I would like to see this be a world growth this time though. It's time all countries become growing toward being one world - one community - all neighbors. We need to grow through all of this somehow.

Linda DeLurker

I think Isaiah ll made the greatest advance toward civilization since the beginning of history up to that time. He gave the Jews hope for a softer landing in life. He offered kindness to an exiled people and he led the way toward redemption and forgiveness. I am talking about the change in the character of the Deity here not the emphasis on monotheism. The benefits, if any, of monotheism are more difficult to assess. It might have made the God more personal,more companionable. I can't imagine anyone other than Moses or Abram talking to the prior God.

The writing of the Tanach (Bible) may have been the second most significant contribution to civilization. It brought personal law to the family. Previously, laws such as Hammurabi's were directed to man's relations with society and the throne. Biblical law, the Law of the Covenant, and the laws of Leviticus and Deuteronomy were more personal. These laws directed human conduct on a personal level and within the family as well as in society.

They were conquerors of the "known" world ie; known to the conqueror,don't you think.

Durant tells of a new development in Judea:--

"It was a dramatic hour in the history of Israel when at last Cyrus entered Babylon as a world-conqueror, and gave to the exiled Jews full freedom to return to Jerusalem. He disappointed some of the Prophets, and showed his superior civilization, by leaving Babylon and its population unhurt, and offering a sceptical obeisance to its gods.

"He restored to the Jews what remained in the Babylonian treasury of the gold and silver taken by Nebuchadrezzar from the Temple, and instructed the communities in which the exiles lived to furnish them with funds for their long hourney home. The younger Jews were not enthusiastic at this liberation. Many of them had sunk strong roots into Babylonian soil, and hesitated to abandon their fertile fields and their fourishing trade for the desolate ruins of the Holy City.

"It was not until two years after Cyrus' coming that the first detachment of zealots set out on the long three months' journey back to the land which their fathers had left half a century before."

I try to imagine myself to be one of the younger Jews. My parents were brought to this land forcibly. I was young or perhaps not even born when this happened. I live in a Jewish community (ghetto?) but consider myself a citizen (or at least a full-fledged resident) of the land where I live. My parents are always dreaming of going back to the "old country" but I am not the least bit interested. I have married and have a family and a trade here.

Suddenly in comes a new ruler who says my parents' dream have come true and they can go back. I am not the least bit enthusiastic because I have heard that the "old country" is in terrible condition and does not have the "modern" facilities of the nation where I live. Furthermore, it would require an arduous three-month trip. "To where - to what?" I ask myself.

If you were one of those younger Jews, what might you say or do?

Robby

I am presenting a Link here this morning on what the article's author calls the ONE TRUE FAITH. For the past three months, as we have moved from Civilization to Civilization, we have observed constant changeovers from this group of gods to that group of gods and we have observed each Civilization trying to impose its religious belief on the other.

I am interested in your reaction to the article linked here but I URGE each participant to refrain from referring to any particular religion -- rather, to speak in generalities about your opinions, especially after having traveled, so far, through Primitive Man, Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, and part way through Judea.

In the past three months, have we learned anything at all about the part that "religion" plays in the "progress from barbarism to civilization?"

Robby

Here again is a MAP OF THE MIDDLE EAST to help us keep perspective. Note the very very small section where Israel is located. This is close to Egypt and Syria but note, now, how much farther Persia (Iran) is. The "world" is widening. Of course, there are Civilizations in other parts of our globe -- China, Japan, etc. which we will visit later -- but, for the moment, here is the source of our "oriental heritage" in the Near East.

Robby

In the past three months, have we learned anything at all about the part that "religion" plays in the "progress from barbarism to civilization?"

Robby, how on earth can we comment on this without being specific about the religion? While I understand that most world religions espouse belief in some kind of Golden Rule, the differences between Christianity and Islam in today's world - particularly in the actions urged by some of their "holy men" - defy overall comments.

And how do we explain the differences between the behavior of Cyrus and that of Nebuccanezzar in terms of religion or emergence from barbarism? They were almost contemporaries, and I don't think either subscribed to monotheism.

Robby - Religion plays a major part in the progress of civilization but in case it would not be acceptable I prefer not to elaborate.

To try to speculate on how I would live an exile from Babylon such as Jews experienced returning to their home land, I would have to erase all past influence that my ancestors provided me with. It would have to be fictional, not historical and it doesn't make sense to me.

There would be transportation to consider. Would my family be safe? for the long journey, would we have to go through hostile territory? would there be enough food? clothing? would my husband have to fight an enemy? would I have to learn another language, other customs? would we be welcome?

Too many unknowns.

I was thinking last night that there is really no way I could understand what living was like in other times in history. Even if I were to do large amounts of research and study, the knowledge I might acquire would never allow me to put myself enough in the past for a true understanding.

I can't truly imagine what living in the 1700's here in America was like, for example. I'd think putting water on my body was not good for me and would not take baths. There are other things I think of, which I've read about but never experienced, but none of them really tells me what it was like or relates to Jews who returned to Jerusalem at the time about which we are reading.

We talk a lot in this discussion about the likenesses between people and what happens to them in our time and what has come before, but seldom do I see mention of the differences between our time and the past, of which there were a great many throughout each era.

It seems to me that nations or even tribes of people cannot live in harmony unless there is a code of behavior which they have in common. Governments provide laws as codes. Religions provide laws of a different, more personal kind, as Justin mentioned before; laws of morals and behavior. There seems to be a consistency in most religions which does not always hold true in ever-changing governments. With countries which are unsettled and in turmoil, a common religion can and does hold people together.

That was an excellent article about tolerance you posted, Robby. Yes, how did a religious movement change from forcing its beliefs on non-believers, even with the use of image-smashing, book-burning, terrorism and other violence, change to a religion of tolerance in the way that Christianity has attempted to change?

Mal

From SWN:--"Robby, how on earth can we comment on this without being specific about the religion?"

From Eloise:--"Robby - Religion plays a major part in the progress of civilization but in case it would not be acceptable I prefer not to elaborate."

OK - I hear you. I, on one hand, not wanting this discussion group to have occasions where the religion of certain participants are painted with a black brush. You, asking in effect, how can we give our true opinions if our mouths are sealed shut. I believe the change has to come from me. It is for me to assume that everyone here will speak kindly even on such a "ticklish" question. You all understand -- I do not want anyone here to feel hurt to the extent that they would leave this forum.

So -- taking the approach that it is necessary to name specific religions -- what is your answer to the following?:--"In the past three months, have we learned anything at all about the part that "religion" plays in the "progress from barbarism to civilization?"

Robby

I thought I answered that question in part in Post # 911. A belief held in common by groups of people and called "religion" presumably provides moral codes and behavioral codes which prevent the impulsive, injurious, emotional, thoughtless, and random acts of violence one person to another or many to many, such as are found in barbarism. Religion reins people into a common realm of behavior, which if ignored is punished by some higher power like many gods or one god, belief in which is also held in common. In other words, religion can play the part of conscience.
As I see it, conscience is not found in barbarism.

Mal

Mal:--Yes, you did. I was asking those who had been reluctant to answer.

Robby

That was well said, Mal. I liked that.

Mahlia could explain the Islam well for us, since the terrorist fundamentalists are not following what Islam teaches.

You were talking about how people from today cannot understand the past, but how would the people from long, long ago ever, ever understand us, too?

War bothers me through the ages. Is that the only way to solve large disputes?

In the Old Testament it seems God was behind some rather violent actions such as Moses holding back the Red Sea and then having it roll back and drown the enemy. And today's religion and culture seems to speak more of love and working out our differences. The Old Testament stories might seem to say violence is ok in which case religion has perpetuated wars and so-called barbaric behavior. Or should we view the OT as just a history?

It seems to me that war is not the only way to "solve large disputes", but, unfortunately, wars have never been considered acts of barbarism. In the far distant future when it is determined that they are, I'm convinced that other ways to solve huge problems and differences will be found (if the human race manages to last that long).

Mal

Robby asks "In the past three months, have we learned anything at all about the part that "religion" plays in the "progress from barbarism to civilization?"

I believe barbarism is still with us - to a greater or lesser degree. Perhaps it is "religion" that has diminished its prevalence, or perhaps it is secular law and the desire for a peaceful, stable society that has done so.

But, in the name of "religion" barbarism is still with us. Just look at the horrible things that we have done to each other - using "religion" as justification: The situation in Northern Ireland was mentioned; the KKK was mentioned; books are banned; people lose their jobs; families are ostracized; abortion clinics are bombed.

I would agree with Mal that "conscience is not found in barbarism", but in the examples I gave above, the perpetrators are acting at the direction of their "conscience". That doesn't make it right.

Mary

Mary (Zwyram) says:--"In the name of "religion" barbarism is still with us. Just look at the horrible things that we have done to each other - using "religion" as justification."

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

When any religion, which does not ascribe to or prescribe violence and barbaric acts, becomes convulted enough in the minds of some people that it is used as a reason and shield for violence, such acts as Mary describes happen. The perpetrators use the excuse that God, Allah, Buddha, whatever the name a higher
power is called, condones the action.

Islam does not preach violence such as what occurred here in September. Christianity, as represented by Protestants and Catholics, does not preach violence like what has occurred in Ireland or the bombing of abortion clinics. In my opinion, it is the misinterpretation of the books of these religions which causes this behavior on the part of extremists who work for their own ends, not those of a religion or a higher power.

Mal

Durant wrote, "Jeremiah cursed the Jews savagely, and took some delight in picturing the ruin of all who would not heed him. Time and again he predicted the destruction of Jerusalem and the captivity in Babylon, and wept over the doomed city (whom he called the daughter of Zion)."

Robby asked how many people today stand up against the powers that be. (Pardon me, I don't know *how* to italicize Durant's quotations or to make Robby's words red.)

Unlike Jeremiah, I'm an optimist. I'm skimming over the posts of those who say barbarism is and will always be with us. Yes, in specific examples, but in general the world has become increasingly civilized even in my lifetime. Since we're not in a political forum, and I don't wish to be, I stop there.

Re the younger Jew's reluctance to return to the "old country", I've seen something similar with the Cuban ex-patriots living in my home state of FL. If Castro were to fall or die, and Cuba become open again, how many Floridians of Cuban extraction would return to live there? Staying where one is born and rooted is very understandable.

Robby, I think many people stand up to the "powers that be." In February, Martin Luther King Jr. comes to mind. Examples present themselves constantly, from the local news to world news, and even from my 2nd grade granddaughter.

I'm looking forward to reading about India and China in Durant, civilizations very different from our own. Maybe we'll be able to focus more on what Durant says there, when we get away from the Bible and the Koran.

:--"In the name of "religion" barbarism is still with us."

All so true, IMO. Poor God! He gets the "blame" when it is MAN (generic)who is/was doing the awful deed(s),ie. acts of war,genocide then saying it is being done in the name of/for God. MAN unable to take responsibility for own actions and have to "blame" someone for own willfulness? Looking for absolution in their barbarism?

Like Judy, I'm more optimistic about the future of humankind than some in this discussion, and see many more advances in civilization than some others do. However, I do not skim over posts by people who believe barbarism is with us in the way it was in the past. I read these posts carefully and think a long time about what these people say.

Now, that's enough from me. I'm going in my word processor and write chapter six of my new book.

P.S. If you think this discussion about The Story of Civilization isn't affecting what I write about and how I write it, you're wrong.

Mal

Mal says:--"Islam does not preach violence such as what occurred here in September. Christianity, as represented by Protestants and Catholics, does not preach violence. In my opinion, it is the misinterpretation of the books of these religions which causes this behavior on the part of extremists who work for their own ends, not those of a religion or a higher power."

If I have understood correctly what we have been reading, the power of the priests was close to absolute in every single Civilization we have examined. Not only did the people follow the dictates of the priests in Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, and Assyria, but the rulers listened carefully to the desires of the "power behind the throne." In most cases, the priests stated the wishes of the gods and everyone, including the kings, obeyed them.

This being so, and taking into consideration Mal's remarks, why aren't the "priests" (generic) of today's world emphasizing the abstention of violence and, when they do, why aren't the people and rulers of the world following them? If the people are misinterpreting the Good Books, why aren't the "priests" correcting them? Are today's "priests" powerless?

Robby

"Re the younger Jew's reluctance to return to the "old country", I've seen something similar with the Cuban ex-patriots living in my home state of FL. "

I can relate to that.I was born and educated in the Congo-Zaire. The only tie I had with Israel was when people came once a year to collect money for building the new state. I never knew much about it and was not particularly interested. I never thought I would move and live elsewhere since my life was centered around Africa. The Independence War in Congo changed all that, Europeans were not welcomed anymore, so we left.

Even then, South Africa was considered as an alternative and then Europe. Had it not been for the much colder climate in Europe and the fact I had some uncles and aunts here I had never met, I would not have come to spend the winter in Israel. It was an eye opener: the country was neither wild, nor unbearably primitive. True I had to learn a new language, I had to absorb more than rudiments of religious laws so as not to offend anyone, but it was my country.

I do not know how to express this. I made it clear I never was religious, I have no background from home to my own culture. But I sobbed like a child when I heard that the Wailing Wall was in our hands after the Six Day War, and even today, I feel a deep feeling in me whenever I am near it. I can tell Eloise that to change country, move to a new mentality, a different background, is the hardest thing to do, especially if you have an alternative. Over the age of 20 it is also very difficult to develop new roots, even with the help of a common religion.

I read with great attention the article in the NY Times. Despite it I am saddened to note that we are at a time when intolerance toward religious differences is getting worse worldwide. I am reluctant to add more, except to say it is not only with the Islamic fundamentalists. Bubble

Bubble share with us:--"I do not know how to express this. I made it clear I never was religious, I have no background from home to my own culture. But I sobbed like a child when I heard that the Wailing Wall was in our hands after the Six Day War, and even today, I feel a deep feelilng in me whenever I am near it."

Thank you so much, Bubble, for opening your profoundest feelings to us. Perhaps most, if not all, of us have much deeper cultural roots than we realize. And these roots may not be embedded in the land in which we are currently residing.

Robby

Robby, could you elaborate? Thanks

Well in your case, Bubble, it is quite possible (I have no way of knowing) that deep inside you were cultural roots placed there by comments by your parents, material you had read or studied, etc. And although these roots may have been in you, they were embedded in a land far from you (Israel.) You only realized the strength and depth of these roots when you saw the possible loss of something tangible (Wailing Wall) which represented your heritage.

America has many such people - folks whose roots remain in the land where they were born or second generation Americans who were born here but brought up in a foreign culture.

We don't always know who or what we are.

I am wondering if you are having any reaction to our readings of the First Temple. We will soon be coming to the Second Temple.

Robby

I think Robby's comment about the power if the priests in the religions we have studied is extremely well taken. We all know that power corrupts, and these priests were accountable only to the gods that (to my mind) they themselves created. People did as they said, because they were afraid to have the power of the god called down on them. My belief would be that when accountability to at least some of the people was introduced (Runnymeade?) barbarism became more controlable. We have the problem of lack of accountability in our own society still (see the discussion on Enron). Religion (at least in Catholic/Protestant societies) had a powerful potential for social control because people were afraid of going to Hell. Of course this social control can be used for evil just as readily as for good. And I think this is perhaps politics rather than religion - sometimes it is difficult to draw the line between.

I'm watching an interview/conversation with Tom Clancy on BookTV on C-Span 2. When asked about religious wars, he made the comment that "war is not about religion, it is about economics".

Comments?

Mary p.s. This 3-hour program is to be repeated tonight from midnight to 3 a.m. Eastern time.

We can only speculate whether barbarians had a conscience, but what we call 'conscience' they probably had another word for it, it was perhaps called revenge. If they didn't like a man, they just killed him, life was cheap. Their conscience told them that it was the right thing to do to save face in front of his women, his peers his chief. In modern times, we value life highly. We live 3 times longer. Barbarians had social order only inside him clan. Their state was their clan and went no further. Outside the clan was the enemy from whom to protect themselves.

Now, it's totally different, we have large nations (clans). We have a President, (chief) we have laws that we hope are just. We have prisons for those who don't obey the law. We have courts to defend even the worst criminals who often do only a short stay inside.

Still, we have violence, barbarisms, wars about religions, about territory, about anything that is different from us. Color, creed, language, greed. We still love it otherwise we wouldn't kill so well, so far away, so thoroughly leaving behind desolation, ruins, famine. We still come home glorious to have won the war.

Eloïse

Eloise, you say:--"In modern times, we value life highly."

I know this sounds picky, but to whom were you referring when you said "we?"

Robby

"Terrorism is violence to achieve political ends."

"Wars are the great games of dictators and kings."

Things to fit into what we're learning about our predecessors.

Mary

This is strictly my opinion -- nothing more and nothing less -- as I have no literary, historical, or intelligent basis upon which to stand.

I read here someone's comments about religion and a god who would have Moses "hold back the Red Sea and then release it to drown all their enemies" (or words to that effect). I think we cannot attribute those records to religion because there was no true "organized" religion at that time in history. I believe even the Ten Commandments were not given to Moses until well after this particular event. The priests (Moses' brother, Aaron was first) were not named, nor were the rites of the tabernacle, such as sacrifices for sin, and offerings for peace and atonement, etc., until later. I am sure the Egyptians had numerous gods to which they paid homage, but the idea of worshiping "the one true God" was yet to be established as religion.

As I said: strictly my opinion, and I thank you for giving me this space in which to intrude.

Hi Jane (Jaywalker)! I'm so glad you are "intruding" and as for your "having no literary, historical, or intelligent basis upon which to stand," practically everyone here is reading "Our Oriental Heritage" for the first time, we are reading it together, and don't pretend to be experts in this field.

And just to show you I have the memory of an elephant (at least today!), here are two posts made November 3rd, three months ago today when this discussion group began. I made the first two posts and guess who opened the discussion??!!

Jaywalker - 08:43pm Nov 3, 2001 PDT (#3 of 1027) ICQ:#11452556 Enjoying my new home on Oregon's Pacific Coast. Hello there, Mr.ROBBY! I can't believe I am the first one to enter this classroom. I will just take my seat near the back, and listen for a while. Just observing at the moment, okay?

robert b. iadeluca - 08:55pm Nov 3, 2001 PDT (#4 of 1027) Books Discussion Leader Hi, Jaywalker!! Welcome to you all the way out there in Oregon.

If you don't mind my being just a bit "picky," we are not a "classroom." There is no professor, no students, no grades to be given out, and no one fails. No one here is an expert, least of all me!! We are all here together to try to solve a mystery -- just where did we all come from? Just who were those primitive people of thousands and thousands of years ago who made us what we are today?

Let's all play detective and maybe some of Durant's quotes above can help us as we go along.

NOW - just one more item to help embarrass Jaywalker. I have had the pleasure of meeting her personally at two Senior Net Bashes (Chicago and Williamsport, Pa) and she is the youngest looking great-grandmother you have ever seen!!

Robby

Durant continues:--"The Jews who returned to Jerusalem found themselves, then as now, not entirely welcome in their ancient home. For meanwhile other Semites had settled there, and had made the soil their own by occupation and toil. These tribes looked with hatred upon the apparent invaders of what seemed to them their native fields.
"The returning Jews could not possibly have established themselves had it not been for the strong and friendly empire that protected them. The prince Zerubbabel won permission from the Persian king, Darius I, to rebuild the Temple. Though the immigrants were small in number and resources, and the work was hindered at every step by the attacks and conspiracies of a hostile population, it was carried to completion within some twenty-two years after the return. Slowly Jerusalem became again a Jewish city, and the Temple resounded with the psalms of a rescued remnant resolved to make Judea strong again.

"It was a great triumph, surpassed only by that which we have seen in our own historic time."

Certain items stand out:--

1 - The fact that other tribes had taken over during the 50+ years the Jews were gone.
2 - These tribes were also Semitic.
3 - These tribes said, in effect, "possession is nine points of the law."
4 - The Jews were protected by a "strong and friendly empire."
5 - The re-building took 22 years - one whole generation.
6 - The other tribes "fought" them every step of the way.
7 - The comparison with "our own historic time."

Comments, please?

Robby

For a non-class (seminar),, you folks aren't doing half-bad!

ROBBY - I'm glad you relented a bit about discussing religions. It's quite possible (as illustrated among the former comments) to talk rationally about religion - or put forth's one's belief - without being rancorous or proselytizing.

Your earlier comments about contemporary "priests" speaking publicly on behalf of peace brought this thought to mind: there are NO priests in Judaism (or Islam). There are rabbis and imams (teachers), but they do NOT hold the same type of authority as those individuals we have been reading about in the ancient period which were "the power behind the thrones" and convinced the leaders to worship the gods.

The Protestant ministers in Christian communities also do not have political clout, although several well-known figures have served as advisors to Presidents, that the ancients had. Nor do the Congressional or Military Chaplains (even among the senior ranks). However, in the Roman Catholic Church, the Pope is a globally recognized and respected figure of authority, who interacts regularly through his various Offices (and occasionally directly) with world leaders. Elsewhere, there are only a few of the Bishops of the Church who have significant influence on political leaders. In the Eastern Orthodox Church (including Catholics in Russia and Greece), their influence rises and wanes, according to the will of the political leadership (not the reverse).

One point which I would like to reiterate (although it has been discussed in depth in the ISLAM forum) is that Islamic religious leaders (heads of universities and those knowledgeable about Sharia laws) HAVE SPOKEN OUT REPEATEDLY ABOUT PEACE. It is simply the insistence of the geneal media which brings to world attention the negative aspects of Islam as perceived and perpetrated by the terrorist organizations.

SEA BUBBLE - I'm glad that you shared the emotions you experienced about the Wailing Wall. These are deeply ingrained feelings (centuries old that run through the blood) and certainly a legitimate expression of a part of your inner self, regardless of whether you are religious or not. Your multicultural background (like mine) is bound to give you a strong sense of historical destiny. The events surrounding the Wailing Wall were simply the "trigger." (N.B. I don't think of myself as being terribly religious either, but I am deeply spiritual.)

MAL - I don't know why you think that you could not imagine living in another age or another place. From your earlier posts describing your life (in this discussion, as well as in others which I've read), you have certainly lived an atypical life. You've adapted to living with physical restrictions; overcome physical and emotional devastation; lived in conflict situations; relocated from the area of your birth to another one; dealt with "foreign languages" (i.e., the differences in Southern racial customs from those of your birth region) - as you well know "language" is communicated in more than just speaking, reading and writing; and maintained your individual dignity. These are all things that are applicable in living in "another" region or time. I've lived in "ancient" societies in the Middle East, awaking each morning thinking I'm in Biblical days; or in China, knowing without a doubt that I have been transported backwards 2,000 years in time! But all the challenges you've faced in your lifetime would be the "tools" for living successfully in the strangeness of a less contemporary society. In the ancient periods, you would probably have been a Deborah or a Ruth or an Elisabeth or a Naomi.

LINDA - we can take up any issues about Islam in the religious forum. We are nowhere near discussing Islam in this one. If the ancient "priests" knew that Islam was on the horizon of their societies, they would have been aghast.

ELOISE - I believe your earlier comments about what "we have" refer solely to Western cultures. There are still many regions of the world where the afflictions, atrocities, and barbaric acts are a daily occurance. They just don't happen regularly in North America or Western Europe. And the average citizen in the Western developed world simply does not have the emotional stomach to handle learning about these atrocities on a daily basis.

When Westerners travel the world, many are in tours designed expressly to feature natural landscapes or the very highest levels of entertainment, cuisine and beauty that a national or region has to offer. For example, travelers to Asia will see the beauty and the friendliness of the people, not the opium dens of Hong Kong and Shanghai; the prostitution markets (yes, MARKETS) in Malaysia and Thailand for women and children of both genders; the small thriving businesses in halucinogenics in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan; the slavers who make regular annual caravans throughout Sudan to sell women and children stolen (or sold)away from their families. Visitors to Israel will be treated to the best hospitality, trips to the biblical sites with intelligent and informed commentary by local guides (many from universities). They will NOT visit the night clubs in Tel Aviv, where young women from Eastern Europe are sold as prostitutes between club owners (after being promised jobs as waitresses or hostesses in their home cities in front of their families). This is an enormous business for relocated Russians who "just need to feed my family" in a country where many still do not speak, read or write Hebrew, so they turn to a trade that is ancient and successful world-wide. In Egypt, travelers will visit the pyramids and sail the Nile, but be kept away from the radicals in Luxor; the fundamentalist communities in Assiut; or the complaints of the Christian Coptic community in Cairo.

These are some of the "realities" of the WORLD - not just the West. And unfortunately, some of these realities are present (and prevalent) in parts of North America: slavers in New York, California, Chicago and Los Angeles "transporting and selling their products - women and young children." Successful Opium markets, traders and manufacturers in Seattle and Los Angeles.

Our purpose here is to read, discuss and explore the comments of Durant as he learned and wrote about the ancient world. But what Durant wrote about from his perspective in the early 20th century is founded on ancient customs and those customs (in all their variables) have "migrated" into the 21st century. To us, the readers. We cannot understand that ancient time period without realizing how many of the customs which seem ancient to us are, indeed, prevalent in our own society. We husmans have changed enormously since the ancient periods we've just been discussing. But as much as we have changed, progressed, become more sophisticated in dress, speech, consumption and technology, moving from gods to God, the more some things remain the same: man's inhumanity to man.

Nations who "value life highly" have a high life expectancy. Nations who don't, life expectancy is still around 50 years of age, like it was all over the world only a century ago. I am talking globally, not in small areas or small segments of a population or isolated incident of violence, crime etc. Americans and Canadians "value life highly'.

War is about economics? of course. Some priests, who call themselves holy, also love gold, and war is faught for gold and power. Not all priests and prophets are evil otherwise religion would have disappeared from the face of the earth and it would not have influenced civilizations for such a long time. A higher power is needed by almost everybody and a proportion of priests as well as kings and multinationals abuse of that by taking advantage of the poor.

Mahlia, thank you for warning us -- in that highly detailed and explicitly worded posting -- to be aware of the possibility that we may be wearing rose-colored glasses. You tell us that "ancient customs (in all their variables) have "migrated" into the 21st century. Many of the customs which seem ancient to us are, indeed, prevalent in our own society. As much as we have changed, progressed, become more sophisticated in dress, speech, consumption and technology, moving from gods to God, the more some things remain the same: man's inhumanity to man."

And Mahlia's remarks emphasize the underlying meaning of the title of the book we are reading -- "Our Oriental Heritage." How easy for us as we move from Civilization to Civilization to notice the differences between "their" ways and "ours" rather than becoming strongly aware of the Similarities. And how easy to concentrate on the word, "Oriental" and ignore the word "Heritage."

Thank you, Mahlia!

Robby

"A few seem favorites of fate,
In pleasure's lap carest;
Yet think not all the rich and great
Are likewise truly blest.
But, oh, what crowds in every land
Are wretched and forlorn!
Through weary life this lesson learn --
That man was made to mourn.

"Many and sharp the numerous ills,
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves,
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heaven-erected face
The smiles of love adorn,
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!

From "Man Was Made to Mourn" by Robert Burns

Mahlia, I think I should feel flattered, but don't know enough about Deborah, Ruth, Elisabeth or Naomi to know for sure.

You're right; I've had an atypical life. I've lived in 7 states in New England, the Midwest and the Southeast. I've lived in a three room cold water tenement with my mother, my brother and two sisters with a kerosene stove for cooking and heat. I've lived in a ten room house on four acres of land my husband and I owned - with him and our three kids. I've lived alone (and briefly with my grownup kids) in a singlewide trailer I bought with a piece of land in Florida for $25,000, and I've lived alone in a $150 a month rented room.

I've had my own radio shows, performed on TV, sung solos in Symphony Hall in Boston, played the piano in other concert halls. And I've stocked shelves and washed floors in a health food market, sold ads for a newspaper door to door and published electronic magazines and written books. I've sold eggs door to door, and I've managed a bookstore.

I've preached sermons as a guest in a church. I've given lectures to teenagers. I've acted in plays on the stage. I've sung solos in numerous churches in many different places. I was a bridesmaid at my best college friend's Jewish wedding. I've been the guest in the forty room house of a very rich, old Boston family and played their piano; I had dinner with a Nobel prize winner and two other distinguished academic couples ---
and I've spent a night in jail.

Yes, I'd probably be able to adjust to a much less contemporary kind of society, but I'd never be able to transport myself back in my mind enough to the ancient times we've been reading about and discussing to understand truly what they were like.

Now I must find out what the Protestant Council of Churches is doing and saying about peace.

Mal

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.

I guess there's a reason these sayings have been around for so long. Truths usual are.

Mary

So is that what we are learning from our observations? That things "are the same" and that there is no progress?

Robby

Gottcha beat, Mal: I spent 3 nights in a dungeon jail in western Iran before my uncle found me.

Believe me, you'd do really well in the ancient world. From your current location, you may not think that you could adapt your mind to the changes, but you would - in a nanosecond - if your safety depended on it. I think sometimes there is not enough focus on the fact that it was WOMEN who not only gave birth to the kings, priests, prophets and warriors of the ancient world, but raised them, served them, held their confidences (and sometimes betrayed them). Thus the women, who may not have had any public life at all (except for people like the Persian Queen Esther and Deborah, "a Mother and Judge of Israel") understood men better than did other men. But what else is new!

ROBBY - Thanks for the kind words from one who is still a "working psychologist" at the age of 80 something!

Yup, my face is red.

How can we say there's been no progress when not very long ago people died from scarlet fever, diphtheria, tuberculosis, polio, smallpox, the flu, peritonitis from appendicitis and other infections, measles, mumps, chicken pox and whooping cough?

How can we say there's been no progress when not very long ago people lived in tight little worlds consisting of one city or town? When if people managed to go to more than five or six grades of school they were considered privileged?

Now through technology we are able to "talk" with and grow to know vastly different people from what we are in every part of the world with instant communication. Through technology we are able to access libraries and museums all over the world. Through ease in travel and moving we now live side by side with people of every nationality, race and religion.

The world has grown smaller, not bigger, and with this change the possibility of understanding each other has grown greater. With understanding comes tolerance and forbearance and maybe even peace.

Mal

Perhaps what is needed here (if at all possible) is a definition of the term "progress." Please note that in Voltaire's quote (above) he did not use that word but used the word "steps."

Robby

Here are a couple of "steps" that have occurred in my American lifetime. When I was growing up there were no allowances made for people with any sort of handicap, physical or mental. Today it's possible for people like us to go out and get good jobs that pay very well. Maybe if it hadn't been so hard for me to find work because of my handicap I wouldn't have had such a varied job career. I certainly would have made more money!

When I lived in Durham, North Carolina in the late 50's, Blacks could not find more than very menial jobs if they could find work at all. Blacks were not allowed in restaurants, were forced to sit in the back of the bus and had to use separate water fountains. Today Blacks in this area have the opportunity to become bank presidents if they want to, teachers or college professors or, in fact, anything they want to be. I call these things progress in a civilization, and I've seen a small part of it in my lifetime.

Mal

Persian, you are right, I suppose I woke up to the sense of lineage, of a link with that far past. It could never have happened elsewhere. Here we are bathed in the biblical times: places upi read as names in the Bible are real and thriving here. For us Jericho and Megiddo are places we have been to, not just history or legends. Past and present are intertwined tightly.

And many things take a new understanding. An example. I will not comment on religious significance, just remind you of how it is written that the lake of Galilee (Tiberias) was rough that day with high waves and the apostles were afraid the boat would capsized. Then it is said a miracle happened and in a minute the water calmed and looked like a mirror. This in my own words of course,from what I remember from the convent school. For twenty years I have been camping every summer on the shores of that same lake, near the Kibbutx Ein Guev. The mornings were spent in delightful swimming. Come 1.00 or 1.30pm and the wind rose causing the lake to produce high waves and very dangerous currents. this continued until 5.oopm. you could set your watches by these times. At 4.00 the water calmed down in less than ten minutes, and the children could bathe again quite safely. I am sure the writer of that incident was well aware of the facts, and they are still true today.

Since living here I have reseached my links with the past, how my maternal family was expulsed from Spain with the Inquisition, how they settle in Gaza (the Gaza strip of today) where one of the family erected a synagogue and fitted the great wooden doors he had brought with him from Spain. Then they moved to Israel. My grandfather was born in Hebron, probably a 3rd generation there. He married a young 13y old girl from Hebron. He was then a young rabbi and was send to work in a community in Cairo (Egypt) This is where my mother and her 8 siblings were born. So I do have roots in the region, I just discovered them well past age 40.

Thanks for your comments Robby. You are making me think further. Bubble

Bubble: You (and others here) may find this LINK about weather at the Sea of Galilee of interest.

Robby

Durant tells us about the life of the Jews after their return to Jerusalem -- "Since some system of order was needed that, while recognizing the sovereignty of Persia, would give the Jews a natural discipline and a national unity, the clergy undertook to provide a theocratic rule based, like Josiah's, on priestly traditions and laws promulgated as divine commands.
"About the year 444 B.C., Ezra, a learned priest, called the Jews together in solemn assembly, and read to them, from morn to midday, the 'Book of the Law of Moses.' For seven days he and his fellow Levites read from these scrolls. At the end the priests and the leaders of the people pledged themselves to accept this body of legislation as their constitution and their conscience, and to obey it forever.

"From those troubled times until ours, that Law has been the central fact in the life of the Jews. Their loyalty to it through all wanderings and tribulations has been one of the impressive phenomena of history."

What stands out in my mind:--

1 - The priests took over the leadership.
2 - The people decided to follow the priests.
3 - Their pledge was to last FOREVER.
4 - Despite huge problems of long standing, the people remained loyal.

Polytheism had changed to monotheism but this did not stop the people from their usual habit of following priests. In effect, they bound themselves to the priests. And they continued to do it for centuries. WHY?

Robby

Because I think we mortals are more comfortable with having someone (i.e. priests) between us and God. Dealing directly with God is scary; you tremble and lose your voice; you plead and promise; you fall on your face in supplication or desperation. It's NOT easy! You are overcome with awe for "the Holy One" who in the ancient period was often "the G-d with no name." And, given the individual circumstances, your heart beats so fast it almost falls out of your chest or you achieve a supreme calmness and sense of guidance. Why is there so much "intercessory prayer?" Why we do ask Catholic priests to "forgive me for I have sinned?" God forgives, not the priests, but it's easier dealing with a Priest.

I went to Catholic convent school as a child and was mischievous. Fortunately, when I was sent to the Mother Superior's office, she was kind and allowed me to stand with my back to her for a couple of minutes, practicing what I was going to say (plead!) and then she calmly said "Are you ready now?" And I had to turn and face the music.

Bubble - at about the time your ancestors left Spain, my father's maternal family was relocating to Persia. And for a kid from California (me), it was pretty impressive while growing up to learn about the history of that branch of my family. When I actually lived, worked, studied, taught and conducted research in that part of the world and got to know my Persian Jewish relatives better, I had similar emotional experiences to those you described about yourself in Israel. Many of our Persian relatives now live in Israel and although they keep up with what's going on in Iran, they live in their "rightful homeland."

". . .That things "are the same" and that there is no progress?

ROBBY - I appreciate the way you are guiding this discussion and the questions (like the one above) which stir us to think of all the wonderful progress that has indeed been made. We can claim magnificent advances in scientific research, planetary exploration, technological advances in communication, intelligence, education, a better understanding of the human brain (and all other areas of the body), transportation like that which could never have been imagined in the ancient times.

Can you imagine a NASA scientist or Russian astronaut talking to someone from the biblical period and explaining the stars or other planets in terms to which we are accustomed?

As much as we women maintain that there is much work left to do world wide to assure better treatment of our sisters - AND THAT WILL NEVER CEASE - women have made tremendous advances. We have women fighter pilots, command officers in police and National Guard units, heads of major universities, research institutes and teaching hospitals. We have female Rabbis, Ministers and Protestant Bishops. I don't know of any female Muslim Imams, but that may change.

The human mind can expand in so many wonderful ways, while at the same time the psychological and emotional aspects of humans can still be inordinately cruel. The wonderful knowledge and professional advancement of an award winning scientist can at the same time be found in the same body and mind as the darkest most evil psychopath. But you already know that! Today, just like our ancestors, we look to future generations to overcome our evilness and cultural short-sightedness and to better understand their world and the societies which will populate it. And we probably tell our children and grandchildren the same thing that our ancestors told their offspring (perhaps in different languages): "Make me Proud" or if things are not working out so well "DON'T MAKE ME COME OVER THERE!"

I think we use the term "priest" in a generic sense. We all recognize, I think, that different terms apply in the various religions.(Iman, Rabbi, Minister, Priest, etc.)

The role of religion in guideing society has varied from civilization to civilization. Religion has functioned as a business in the sense that it supplied it's priests with power, with food and shelter, and with wealth. Religion has functioned as educator as it did in Babylonia. It has functioned as Librarian for the Babylonian tablets.It probably contributed to the development of language. It served as justification for conquest, murder, torture, cultural, environmental and human destruction.It's essential characteristc has been two steps forward and three steps back. But then, every once in a while, a religious leader comes along who is able to push society further along toward civilization than anyone else. Such a man, in this ancient period was the Second Isaiah. He removed for a time the force of a vengeful god and gave the people a deity in a much softened version. A version that would not justify war-like characteristics. A version that brought hope to people rather than dispair.

You were talking about standing up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A11805-2002Feb1?language=printer

(Lurking is easier. If you want to post, you have to read 50-75 messages and then you have to go and fix dinner or something and don't have any time left to post, much less think of one that sounds intelligent enough to be acceptable.)

Durant told us that "from those troubled times until ours, that Law has been the central fact in the life of the Jews. Their loyalty to it through all wanderings and tribulations has been one of the impressive phenomena of history."

I am wondering what Durant meant by "loyalty." He says that the Jews were loyal to the Mosaic Law. Just what is loyalty anyway? Does it mean following a Law? What is loyalty to the Constitution? Is there such a thing as loyalty to a church doctrine? Loyalty to a tribe? Loyalty to a family?

And is loyalty so rare that Durant can describe it as an "impressive phenomenon?"

Robby

Click here to find out what is the LAW OF MOSES

Hairy, You might want to put that link in the ENRON discussion (political folders).

You are right it is easier to lurk. By the time I have thought about things they are off to another area!

Click here to find out what is the LAW OF MOSES

Robby:

In answer to your post #950, people followed the priests leading in every situation, in every age, throughout history.

It gave them hope for a better life, if not in this world, then in the next. " They would get their piece of the pie, in the sky, in the bye and bye, when they die".

Mal: I agree with your post #945 on the great possibilities of the internet being the catalysis for friendly communications between nations, free of intolerance and greed, to resolve our differences.

The suffering of many weaker tribes, races and nations throughout history was caused by their quiet acquiescence and acceptance of the slavery and hardships inflicted by other stronger nations with military might.

The holocaust and the silent acceptance of this hostile subversion of the Jews by nearly every other nation almost resulted in the total extinction of the Jews in this century, and caused them to have the mentality they have to-day of primarily protecting their own people, and disregarding the suffering they are causing among their opponents, and the hostility of other nations.

The Palestinians want to live peacefully as equals alongside Israel on the territories formerly theirs and now occupied by Israel, since 1967.

Israel is able to control the water supply to Palestine and allows the water to flow to the Palestinians only twice a week while they themselves have swimming pools. The "Survival of the Fittest" mentality, quoted by Darwin as one of the paths of animal and human evolution, has always occurred throughout history and has again come into play in this century.

Lack of minimum necessities causes more than eleven million children to die each year in the developing world.

In Mozambique 20% of all the children that are born die before they turn five.

This disparity between nations caused WW2, the war in Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf War, and the present war in Afghanistan, and was responslble for all the destruction and loss of American life on 9/11/01, and is causing the escalating situation between the haves and have nots to-day, both who now have dangerous nuclear capability.

It also demonstrates the vigilance we must maintain at the present time to avoid a nuclear confrontation that could wipe out the planet and every human being on it.

Pat

Click here to find out what is the LAW OF MOSES

Here is FURTHER INFORMATION about the Mosaic Law. Always consider the source of the material you are reading in these Links.

Robby

Voltaire’s question should perhaps be “By what ‘steps’ WILL we pass from barbarism to civilization”?

Assuming that we have reached a certain level of civilization, I tend to believe that peacetime - while nations are between wars - are the times when civilizations are progressing the most. The building frenzy and scientific discoveries after a war contribute to progress in efforts to surpass enemies in new weaponry, gain being a driving force in itself and religion sometimes being the excuse for starting the war.

Arts, literature, music and painting proved to be a major tool in the refinement of a society while priests held the population obedient to their ruler by means not always holy or divinely inspired depending on the sincerity of their beliefs.

Progress needs freedom to expand because it is means growth and without it, growth is stunted. Progress took giant steps in the United States because of the freedom that Democracy provided along with safety within its borders, until 9/11. Take away security and safety and progress will be replaced by defense mechanisms.

The steps from barbarism to civilization then need to be: freedom, security, social order, unity and brotherhood through tolerance of religion, race and color. With love everything is possible.

Faithful, that's what loyalty means. I pledge allegiance to the Mosaic Law. In the Diaspora, in the Reform groups it is probably honored in the breach. But in the Orthodox groups the Law as I understand it is adhered to strictly. What does Sea Bubble say?

Pat, please check your sources before you proclaim "facts"? About peaceful Palestinians and about water supplies.

Soon you will be repeating Sue Arafat's fantasies to Mrs Clinton about Israel polluting their water wells and passing on diseases to the Arab kids.

Last summer, because we kept our agreements to give Jordans and Palestinians their quota of water, even in this drought year, we were fined if we watered the gardens and parks and the Sea of Galilee was depleted of water under the emergency line.

Bubble

"What was this 'Book of the Law of Moses?' Not quite the same as that 'Book of the Covenant' which Josiah had read. The latter had admitted of being completely read twice in a day, while the other needed a week. We can only guess that the larger scroll constituted a substantial part of those first five books of the Old Testament which the Jews call Torah or the Law, and which others call the Pentateuch.
"The consensus of scholarship is that the oldest elements in the Bible are those distinct and yet similar legends of Genesis which are called 'J' and 'E' respectively because one speaks of the Creator as Jehovah (Yahveh) while the other speaks of him as Elohim. It is believed that the Yahveh narrative was written in Judah, the Elohim in Ephraim, and that the two stories fused into one after the fall of Samaria.

"A third element, 'P', is composed of sections later inserted by the priests. This 'Priestly Code' is probably the substance of the 'Book of the Law' promulgated by Ezra. The four compositions appear to have taken their present from about 300 B.C."

If there is any truth attached to this "consensus of scholarship", we can see that the Bible was subjected to much interpretation right at its very inception, never mind the many interpretations and modifications that might have occurred in later centuries.

Comments, please?

Robby

JUstin, in answer to a previous post, you say priests as generic. But the rabbi has a totally different function in Judaism. He is not necessary to conduct a service for example. We need a quorum of 10 over 13years old males to conduct a service, and this can be in any house, room, that is clean. I don't think a mass could be held like that?

Rabbis of course have more knowledge since they study in rabbinical college and they usually are Mohel too, able to perform circumcisions. But there again, if you have the know how, you do not need to be a rabbi for that. My uncle circumcised his two sons himself.

In Congo we had only one rabbi for the whole country ( one tenth of USA if I look on the map? but you better check it!). He could not conduct Festival services everywhere. In each community there was a man or more who was fulfilling the requirements, even conducting weddings and prayers at funerals.

Faithful? It is I think respecting at least the minimum laws which separate the Jews from the Gentiles. I think each person has his own interpretation of that. Orthodoxes of course would be sticklers and apart from keeping house and kitchen kosher, would not drive on shabbat, nor use electricity, would not mix with others, would keep theyr boys and girls segragated until the wedding day, etc. They would also spend at least part of the day in studying the Tora or the Gemarrah.

Reformists try to combine modern life with the precepts. I think that Judaism is richer for the different currents in it. And we were always encourage to interprete and ask questions. As Eloise said, there are always people who feel safer to confer for everyday life problem with a faith-person and have him advise on the course to take. It happens here too. I prefer not to comment on that.

Bubble

I was a Scout Executive with the Boy Scouts of America for 13 years. For two years of that time, I was with the five Scout councils of New York City. Each summer they sent Scouts to the Ten Mile River Camp which was larger than any in the nation because of the size of the city and which, because of the high Jewish population, had a number of kosher kitchens and dining halls.

These kitchens had Rabbis and other Orthodox Jewish people attached to them who made sure that Orthodox Jewish Scouts ate foods which were served in the proper kosher manner.

Robby

As I said, we are encourage to read the Texts and interprate them. In school even, the daily Bible lesson is made with the Cassuto Bible, which is a Bible holding also for each line commentaries made by the celebrated Cassuto rabbi.

The religious schools spend hours on comments and interpretations. I have heard it said that this made the Jewish people experts in arguments too!

I wish I knew how to translate the term Pilpul, not in my OED unfortunately. It is what students do when they are given a verse of the mosaic law and they have to develop an argument proving it, and then an argument against it. Bubble

Click HERE for the definition of PILPUL.

Durant continues:--"The legend of Paradise appears in almost all folklore -- in Egypt, India, Tibet, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Polynesia, Mexico, etc. Most of the Edens had forbidden trees, and were supplied with serpents or dragons that stole immortality from men, or otherwise poisoned Paradise.
"Both the serpent and the fig were probably phallic symbols. Behind the myth is the thought that sex and knowledge destroy innocence and happiness, and are the origin of evil. We shall find this same idea at the end of the Old Testament in Ecclesiastes as here at the beginning.

"In most of these stories, woman was the lovely-evil agent of the serpent or the devil, whether as Eve, or Pandora, or the Poo See of Chinese legend."

Robby

What is this "evil-lovely" agent of the devil nonsense curse that has been put on women since long before the time of Moses? Durant says about the Chinese:

" 'All things,'" says the Shi-ching, 'were at first subject to man, but a woman threw us into slavery. Our misery came not from heaven but from woman; she lost the human race.' "

What ridiculous baloney! Have men been so threatened throughout history by women? Can't they stand a little competition? Or are there other reasons throughout the ages for this demeaning palaver? If so, what are they,
do you think?

The definition of "Pilpul" on the page to which you linked, Robby, barely scratches the surface of what these arguments are, I believe. As I understand it, people argue Jewish holy books sentence by sentence, point by point, in a very serious way. I'm sure these arguments get a bit "peppery" at times.

The Pentateuch can be found in the English translation of the Tanach which I linked here. Durant says that it's only a guess that "the larger scroll constituted a substantial part of these laws." He also says that at the time he wrote Our Oriental Heritage 50,000 volumes had been published about how, when and where these books were written. Durant also says that stories of the Creation, the Temptation and the Flood were drawn from a storehouse of Mesopotamian legend as old as 3000 B.C. How, then, can we claim that these stories are the word of God, I wonder, when Mesopotamians practiced polytheism? I'm not saying they're not, but to me it seems a bit of a stretch of the imagination. That's not said to insult anyone's faith or what anyone believes. Remember, this discussion is something of a Pilpul in itself, as we ponder and evaluate Durant's words, words in holy books and our own.

Mal

Mal - I am used now to having Durant blaming 'priests' for every kind of misery that befell humanity. For a change he is blaming a woman. Does he ever blame men for their own mistakes?

Bubble - While Jews discuss at length about the Torah throughout generations, do they ever a dig into history the way Durant writes it in Story of Civilizations? and if they do, do they ever change anything in the scriptures as a result of such research?

Eloise, as you read the book, you will see that it isn't Durant who blamed women. The quote I posted was from a Chinese book. It seems to me, and I've read this in several other places, that men began blaming women for the wrongs of the world thousands of years before Judea and Moses came along, even in prehistoric times. It is interesting to note that Will Durant's wife, Ariel, was a feminist who fought for women's causes with the complete support of her husband, by the way.

I also don't see Durant blaming priests. Remember that priests in ancient times were not what they are today in the Catholic church or other religions. Durant uses the word "priests" only as a kind of generic form for a religious leader in ancient times.

In my estimation, a historian is a kind of reporter who bases what he or she writes on ancient tablets, scrolls, other ancient records and research done by them or others. In other words, historians base their writing on well-proven facts.

If other readers of The Story of Civilization through the years and I felt the books Durant wrote were only speculation and his own opinion, we'd discard them as easily as we would a few grains of salt. I personally see
no evidence that Durant's books fit that description.

Mal

I have read somewhere (how's that for a scholarly reference) that the distaste for /blame of womankind derived from an "Old Religion" with goddesses and wise women; the Great Goddess was the Earth Mother who had serpents as her creatures and was worshiped in caves. When men with patriarchial religions (as any of the monotheistic ones) overthrew the matriarchial society they retained a fear of women. Does anyone know anything to support, or refute this?

Women were, and to some extent still are, considered as unclean, probably because of the menstrual flow. There are remnants of this beief in Christianity and Judaism as well as Islam. I myself have attended an Episcopal rite called "The churching of women", which is nothing on earth but a purification ceremony. The more orthodox Jews, I believe, continue to use a ritual bath (Mikva (?) ) Set me straight, Malryn. I know very little about Islam, but the insistence we see on women being veiled is certainly a manifestation of fear.

I think Eve's "sin" was inserted into the story to give people an someone to blame. It is interesting that in my part of the world this seems to be interpreted almost as a sexual sin... "Eve got into trouble with that snake" and we all suffer as a result.

Eloise - Torah is studied to see the truth in in , to understand its precepts and thus to gain wisdom and faith.

Not a word or a dot can be changed in the scripture - G-d forbid! - but it is the interpretation that leads us to a certain conduct, is it not? See how you interpreted that Durant blamed women for men's misery and Mal did not find that so.

SWN - Yes, ritual cleansing has a very important role in Judaism. I know that I could not get married without that little paper attesting I had immersed totally in the mikve and had been "checked" for very short unvarnished fingernails and clean haire beforehand. Bubble

Swnn, Yes there is a book : When Woman Was A God by Merlin. Rather dry but she did considerable research into the Oracles and explains how men entered the church. First as helper eunechs (sp?) wearing the white robes as the Oracles did and finally overthrowing the Oracles.

If memory serves me this happened BC and through- out the greek and roman world

This is a link to a site which will tell you more about mikve. It includes a description of a personal experience by a writer.
Mikve

If Jewish people never change the wording of their holy books, why do Christians persist in making so many changes and versions of the Christian Bible?

Mal

Bubble - Is the Torah translated as the Bible was is in every language? or is it read in the original Hebrew language as it was at the time it was written? If it is, students must learn old Hebrew early in life do they?

In old movies about the study of the Torah, you see a lot of people discussing, and even arguing about every word, sentence, chapter. Then doesn't that indicate that each person has his own interpretation of things and it is virtually impossible to arrive at a complete consensus. We can only come to a compromise and that is as close to perfection as it can be.

In human relations, in country relations, in any relations it is the same. There will never be any perfect agreement on certain things, there will only be a compromise with people meeting half way in order to keep the peace.

Eloïse

For us the Torah is in Hebrew. There is not much difference with the modern language, the words are the same, the grammar never changed, just words were added for all the modern inventions and technology. As much as possible the new words are based on ancient roots so that even if you do not know a word, you can get to the meaning because of the root.

I think it is easier for me to understand those texts than it is to understand Shakespeare's English.

I seem to remember in highschool when I studied Latin and ancient Greek, that our teacher told us some of the Holy Texts were written in Aramean. He of course was also fluent in that and show us how he wrote it perfectly. I am sorry to say I did not absorb that knowledge.

What you see in those movies is a typical way Torah is taught in the "Heder" or in the Yeshivah. They discuss, have arguments, but in the end usually agree with this or that great commentator. The differences are usually on very small points of interpretation which to my eyes would seem a splitting of hairs!

The compromise is somewhat difficult when it is a question of observing the rules like in biblical time, or allowing the modern life to encroach. Driving on shabbat is one of those points, and is the reason there is no bus services on week end in Israel, nor flights by El Al.

Maybe it is the price to be paid for being part of the Chosen People? Bubble

Thank you, Mal, for reminding us to examine carefully the source of the remarks made here. At times I have quoted Durant and someone has written: "Robby, you said..." when it was Durant who said it, not I. That is why I am so meticulous about putting Durant's remarks in Bold Italics like this to differentiate it from my own remarks. Or sometimes I may say "Durant quotes John Jones" showing that it was not Durant who originally said it. And, of course, there is the importance of noting the source of the material found in Links.

Robby

Let us now examine the Ten Commandments one by one through the eyes of the Historian Durant. Again, we each hold to our own beliefs as this is a historial discussion, not a religious discussion. But let us also keep in mind that Durant gave those Ten Commandments their due by saying: "The Ten Commandments (Exodus, xx, 1-17) were destined to receive the lip-service of half the world.

I will do my best to present these in an organized fashion so that we can better understand Durant's comments. I am also aware that they sometimes differ to the point where they are called the "Protestant" Ten Commandments, the "Catholic" Ten Commandments, and the "Hebrew" Ten Commandments.

In keeping with our current study of Ancient Judea, I will list (one Commandment at a time) what the search engines tell me are the Hebrew Commandments. I am open to constructive criticism by those here more "in the know" than I. But please be patient with your Discussion Leader as, in his mere mortal way, he is trying to do his best with the small amount of knowledge he has in this field.

Robby

The First Commandment - - -

I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Comments on the First Commandment by Durant:--"The first laid the foundation of the new theocratic community, which was to rest not upon any civil law, but upon the idea of God. He was the Invisible King who dictated every law and meted out every penalty. And his people were to be called Israel, as meaning the Defenders of God.

"The Hebrew state was dead, but the Temple remained. The priests of Judea, like the Popes of Rome, would try to restore what the kings had failed to save. Hence the explicitness and reiteration of the First Commandment. Heresy or blasphemy must be punished with death, even if the heretic should be one's closest kin. The priestly authors of the Code, like the pious Inquisitors, believed that religious unity was an indipensable condition of social organization and solidarity. It was this intolerance, and their racial pride, that embroiled and preserved the Jews."

Robby

For anyone who is interested, the way to put a quote in bold italics is this: <b><i>THE QUOTE</b></i>. If you want to indent your quotes as I do, type this: <blockquote> at the beginning of the quote. At the end, type this: </blockquote>.

I'm going back a little here. There are numerous translations of the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. I own one in English. There are also translations of the Tanach, as witnessed by the link I posted. I can well imagine that what I've read in the Torah I have is not precisely like the Hebrew.

What follows is part of a message by a WREX writer posted yesterday, which is rather amusing, I think.

"Something funny happened in Sunday School class." (Ed. Sunday School is where people study the Bible.) "The teacher read l Samuel 19, 18-24. The way she read it from her Bible: 'They all fell into naked frenzies.' The Bible I take to Sunday School is The Living Bible version. It says they were all prophesying. For some reason after she repeated about three times the business about falling down naked frenzying, I got this picture of a mob of people naked on the ground rolling around in a frenzy. I started laughing right out loud. Everybody looked at me like I was crazy. I said, 'I'm sorry, maybe I have Touerett’s Syndrome.' Laughing at an inappropriate time as I was doing. Then to make it worse I said, 'I think they just wanted to have a wild party.' Now I don’t know what version she was reading from, but when I got home I looked at three different versions: The Living Bible, The Revised Standard version, and The King James version. None of them mentioned them taking off their clothes or going into a frenzy. I’ll have to ask her what version she was reading."