Voltaire (quote above) wanted to know the steps by which Mankind moved from barbarism to civilization. If, as Justin indicates, there are still signs of barbarism, can we also see signs of being "Civilized?" What might they be?

Robby

Your reaction to this philosophy, please?

Just what is "religious unity?"

Robby

"The Hebrew state was dead, but the Temple remained; the priests of Judea, like the Popes of Rome, would try to restore what the kings had failed to save."

Considering the ancient traditions we have examined so far, do you folks agree with Mal? Disagree? Just what is "religious unity" anyway? If not world-wide, can there be religious unity within groups?

Robby

Mal -your question on # 15. I would be very anxious if USA was really going that way. Bubble

This version is translated from the Bible given to each soldier in the army.
I. I am * your God who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the slave house.
2. You will have no other God but Me, you will not make make nor adore any graved images because I am a jealous God who punishes iniquity but shows mercy to those who love me and obey my commands.

The Torah is considered to be a contract between God and the Jewish People. It defines the commitments on both sides.

The Decalogue or Ten Commandments can be found in Chapt. 20 of Exodus whish is the second book of the Torah. It is repeated once again with some significant variance in Deuteronome 5.

The Jewish Bible, apart from the Torah, counts eight books of prophets and eleven books of scriptures in total twenty four books. The Catholic Bible translated into latin is divided differently and counts fourty six books. Bubble

"Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments."

About Judaism.
Judaism, as opposed to the Church, does not have a supreme authority or an organized clergy. Rabbis are spiritual mentors renown for their personal knowledge of the Torah, but they are Jews like all others and their reputation is according to their own wisdom and erudition.

Judaism is first of all a human rule, a way of life that follows very strict rules. For a religious Jew, the practice of the Law is the center of his faith. For this he has to know in details what is written in the Holy Texts.

Such as that all representation of the divine is forbidden and called idolatry. The divine name cannot be pronounced or even known, except by the letters YHWH which were on the stones given to Moses, but no one knows how it was pronounced. It is the reason that in English it is written G-d to show that impossibility to pronounce.

This God, outside of human understanding, is nonetheless present everywhere. He created everything, sees everything and knows the destiny of each in the universe. He is the final Judge of our actions at the end of times. There is no luck or fatality. Each is responsible for his actions and there is no barrier between the spiritual life and the everyday one. The Holy Books tell man exactly how to behave in all circumstances and he should put his freedom in the service of God as if he was His partner.

Since the exile after the destruction of the Temple, there are two big currents in Judaism with different rites, those from Central Europe are the Eshkenazes and talk Yiddish, while the Sepharades or spanish-ladino speaking were established in the Mediterranean region. Apart from language difference, they have differences of culture. The Eshkenazes who came from cold countries, have kept their long black coats and fur hats, very unsuited to the Israeli climate. The way they pray also is different, since their native language influences the pronunciation of their Hebrew.

No matter those differences, The traditions and rites have been kept rigidly all through the years. The accent was on the family life and the formal respect of the divine law.

This formalism is a direct consequence of following a text that cannot be changed: the Torah. It is similar to Islam following carefully the Koran. The study of the Torah and Talmud of course developed intellectual capacities and created a special talent for commenting.

A religious Jew has the duty to follow the 613 rules that dictate all circumstances in life, and including those about food, circumcision, coming of age at 12 or 13, wedding and purity in the family, divorce and death too.

One more word: according to the Jewish calendar, the world was created 3760 years before this era. So 2002 corresponds to year 5762 since creation.

Bubble

Durant's comment about the Second Commandment is as follows:--

"The Second Commandment elevated the national conception of God at the expense of art. No graven images were ever to be made of him. It assumed a high intellectual level among the Jews, for it rejected superstition and anthropomorphism, and -- despite the all-too-human quality of the Pentateuch Yahveh -- tried to conceive of God as beyond every form and image.

"It conscripted Hebrew devotion for religion, and left nothing, in ancient days, for science and art. Even astronomy was neglected, less corrupt diviners should multiply, or the stars be worshiped as divinities.

"In Solomon's Temple there had been an almost heathen abundance of imagery. In the new Temple there was none. The old images had been carried off to Babylon, and apparently had not been returned along with utensils of silver and gold. Hence we find no sculpture, painting or bas-relief after the Captivity, and very little before it except under the almost alien Solomon. Architecture and music were the only arts that the priests would allow.

"Song and Temple ritual redeemed the life of the people from gloom. An orchestra of several instruments joined 'as one to make one sound' with a great choir of voices to sing the psalms that glorified the Temple and its God. 'David and all the house of Israel played before the Lord on harps, psalteries, timbrels, cornets and cyumbals.'"

Comments, please, on Durant's remarks concerning the Second Commandment?

Robby

Considering the emphasis that earlier priests in previous Civilizations had placed on astronomy and other sciences and upon art in various forms, what do you folks believe was the cause of this drastic change?

Was science a threat to religion at that time? Is it now? Your thoughts, please?

Robby

The sun is called in Hebrew SHEMESH. From the same root [SH-M-SH] is the word shimshon for sunflower, shimshyia for parasol or umbrella, shmasha for a windowpane (do you see the logic here for the forming of this word in modern Hebrew?)

Robby

" '.....because they held that the common crowd would be more likely to obey the laws if their gaze were directed towards the majesty and power of those to whom their laws were ascribed.' "

Durant's comments on the Third Commandment:--

"The Third Commandment typified the intense piety of the Jew. Not only would he not 'take the name of the Lord God in vain,' he would never pronounce it, even when he came upon the name of Yahveh in his prayers, he would substitute for it Adonai--Lord. Only the Hindus would rival this piety."

Your reactions are invited.

Robby

"You shall not take the Name of Hashem, your G-d, in vain, for Hashem will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain. (Exodus 20:7)

"What is it to take the Name of G-d in vain? The word 'vain' can be defined in two ways--for no reason or for personal reasons, and these are both the same--for both are to no avail and spread only corruption. The Hebrew word 'LaShav' is translated as 'in vain.' The Hebrew word also has two meanings. It can be read as 'for no reason' which is 'to no avail,' or as 'falsely' in order to 'promote a falsehood.' The Commandment not to take the Name of G-d in vain, means both these things. It is Forbidden to use the Name of G-d to no avail, for no good Reason, as it is Forbidden to speak falsely in G-d's Name. To act this way is a form of idolatry; stealing the identity of G-d and replacing Him with your own thoughts. And 'Hashem will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain,' for these people are guilty and will suffer for their crimes; they will not be absolved by claiming to speak in the Name of G-d. In fact, they will be guilty, for this is a crime in itself--desecrating the Name of G-d--and they will suffer for their crimes, as Justice will be served.



"But a person takes the Name of G-d in vain in order justify his corruption. Therefore, this sin goes along with an act of corruption--and he will be punished according to his deeds, according to the Laws of G-d. But should a person take the Name of G-d in vain in order to lead Israel astray, in defiance of G-d, the Judge of Israel, that person will die according the Judgement that applies for idolaters, as a consequence of his rebelliousness."

Bubble

With the centuries, the commentaries of this oral Torah became so numerous that Rabbi Yehuda started to write them down. This oral Torah, now in writing is called the Mishnah and treats such concrete subjects as agriculture, familial life, Penal and Civil Code, as well as religious topics such as prayers, holidays, services at the Temple and conditions of ritual purity.

The Mishnah was not considered to be detailed enough and the rabbis completed it with more commentaries called the Guemarah.<P.

What we call the Talmud is composed of the whole of the Mishnah together with all the commentaries. These texts, very detailed, exist in two versions, one written in the 4th C in Jerusalem, the other in Babylone in the 5th C.

The Talmud is only the reference and source of the Jewish law. One must add to it other writings like the Halakha, the Haggada, the Midrash, the Kabbaka with the Zohar (13th c).

All these texts are important but should never surpass the study of the Torah which is the main springboard of all Jewish religious studies and practice. Bubble

"Stealing the identity of G-d and replacing Him with your own thoughts....they will not be absolved by claiming to speak in the name of G-d.....takes the name of G-d in vain in order to justify his own corruption."

"Talmud [Aramaic from Heb., = learning], compilation of Jewish Oral Law, with rabbinical commentaries, as distinguished from the Scriptures, or Written Law. Its two divisions are the Mishna (in Hebrew), the text of the Oral Law, and the Gemara (in Aramaic), a commentary on the Mishna, which it supplements. The Gemara developed out of the interpretations of the Mishna by the Amoraim (Jewish scholars of A.D. c.200-c.500), whose hairsplitting arguments made the work a treasury of information and comment. The legal sections of the Talmud are known as the halakah; the poetical digressions-legends and anecdotes-constitute the Aggada. Both the Palestinian and Babylonian schools produced Talmuds: the Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem Talmud, compiled c.5th cent.) and the Talmud Babli (Babylonian Talmud, c.6th cent.); the latter became the authoritative work. A vast literature of commentaries on the Gemara, including those of Rashi, interpreted the older rulings in the light of the new experience of life in Christian Europe in the Middle Ages. A similar process has helped to keep the tradition alive in modern times."



The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia is licensed from Columbia University Press. Copyright © 1995 by Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

How do the rest of you feel about that?

Following are comments by Durant regarding the Fourth Commandment:--

"The Fourth Commandment sanctified the weekly day of rest as a Sabbath, and passed it down as one of the strongest institutions of Mankind. The name -- and perhaps the custom -- came from Babylon. Shabattu was applied by the Babylonians to 'tabu' days of abstinence and propitiation.

"Besides this weekly holyday there were great festivals -- once Canaanite vegetation rites reminiscent of sowing and harvesting, and the cycles of moon and sun. Mazzoth originally celebrated the beginning of the barley harvest. Shabuoth, later called Pentecost, celebrated the end of the wheat harvest. Sukkoth commemorated the vintage. Pesach, or Passover, was the feast of the first fruits of the flock. Rosh-ha-shanah annnounced the New Year. Only later were these festivals adapted to commemorate vital events in the history of the Jews.

"On the first day of the Passover a lamb or kid was sacrificed and eaten, and its blood was sprinkled upon the doors as the portion of the god. Later the priests attached this custom to the story of Yahveh's slaughter of the first-born of the Egyptians.

"The lamb was once a totem of a Canaanite clan. The Passover, among the Canaanites, was the oblation of a lamb to the local gods.

"As we read (Exod., xi) the story of the establishment of the Passover rite, and see the Jews celebrating that same rite steadfastly today, we feel again the venerable antiquity of their worship, and the strength and tenacity of their race."

Robby

Robby

When I was searching about the Mishnah, a very religious neighbor dropped in and I asked her. She was curious to see why I wanted the info, I showed her this site "about Ancient Civilization". Imagine my surprize when she told me that she had somewhere in the house a series of books about it, by a Durant man! Hers is in 36 volumes and she will lend me the first volume soon. Of course it is in French, but that doesn't bother me at all. Am I not lucky? Bubble

Now you and Eloise can email each other about the French volumes.

Aren't we a terrific discussion group here?!!

Robby

Robby

What does the word "sanctify" mean to you folks? And what does the word "commandment" mean to you? Aside from dictionary definitions, what pictures do they bring to your mind?

Robby

Justin, I think you have the answer. Put yourself in Carla's place. She is a newcomer and enters just at the time that our conversation is solely about religion. She hasn't been with us long enough to realize that, in addition to the sub-topics you mentioned, we also talk about music, paintings, architecture, poetry, family, war, peace, and on and on. Perhaps she has not taken the time to read the Heading above in detail, especially the quote which says:--"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."It might be helpful for each of us, no matter how long we have been participating here, to pause periodically and read every word above in the Heading.

Carla is not only a newcomer, she is a WELCOME newcomer and, as we move ahead in Durant's book, will probably see the large scope of our discussion.

And Carla, if you get the book, that's fine. But if you don't have the opportunity to get it, just constantly reading the GREEN quotes above which are periodically changed, will help you to keep up to date.

Robby

Following are Durant's comments about the Fifth Commandment:--

"The Fifth Commandment sanctified the family, as second only to the Temple in the structure of Jewish society. The ideals then stamped upon the institution marked it throughout medieval and modern European history until our own disintegrative Industrial Revolution.

"The Hebrew patriarchal family was a vast economic and political organization, composed of the oldest married male, his wives, his unmarried children, his married sons with their wives and children, and perhaps some slaves. The economic basis of the institution was its convenience for cultivating the soil. It's political value lay in its providing a system of social order so strong that it made the state -- except in war -- almost superfluous.

"The father's authority was practically unlimited. The land was his, and his children could surrvive only by obedience to him. He was the state. If he was poor, he could sell his daughter, before her puberty, as a bondservant; and though occasionally he condescended to ask her consent, he had full right to dispose of her in marriage as he wished.

"Boys were supposed to be products of the right testicle, girls of the left -- which was believed to be smaller and weaker than the right.

"At first marriage was matrilocal. The man had to 'leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife' in her clan. But this custom gradually died out after the establishment of the monarchy. Yahveh's instructions to the wife were: 'Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'

"Though technically subject, the woman was often a person of high authority and dignity. The history of the Jews shines with such names as Sarah, Rachel, Miriam and Esther. Deborah was one of the judges of Israel and it was the prophetess Huldah whom Josiah consulted about the Book which the priests had found in the Temple.

"The mother of many children was certain of security and honor. For the little nation longed to increase and multiply, feeling, as in Palestine today, its dangerous numerical inferiority to the peoples surrounding it. Therefore it exalted motherhood, branded celibacy as a sin and a crime, made marriage compulsory after twenty, even in priests, abhorred marriageable virgins and childless women, and looked upon abortion, infanticide and other means of limiting population as heathen abominations that 'stank in the eyes of the Lord.' And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister, and said unto Jacob, 'Give me children, or else I die.'

"The perfect wife was one who labored constantly in and about her home, and had no thought except in her husband and her children."

A Commandment obviously extremely important to the Ancient Jews. It contains many thoughts worthy of consideration. Your views, please?

Robby

Not driving, using electricity would seem an act of hyprocrisy since I never respected those edicts and do not see the logic in them.

But sanctifying the Shabbat for me is making it different from the other days. It start with the lighting of candles on Friday night , in the special meal to be partaken all together, it means taking an interest in each others and not being hurried by task, chores or work.

Shabbat is for indulging in well being, in well feeling and forget the pressures around. It is for thanks giving that we can have that leisure and not have more hardships. Do I make sense? In fact it is probably not at all the Jewish way of understanding it, more a universal way I think. Bubble

Perhaps we should give greater credit than we do to the Ancients for their attitude toward positive thinking and needed times for relaxation.

Robby

A religious woman will never touch her husband in public and a father will refrain from hugging his daughter after the age of ten: praise will be only through words.

Of course a man will never raise his eyes nor touch another female. I have an anecdote about that.

One of my mother’s brothers lived in Brooklyn and I had never met his family. His daughter is the only extremely religious one in the family. She came to consult a rabbi in Israel because she could not conceive. Since my house is not Kosher, she did not want to visit but asked me if I was willing to meet her at the bus station, which of course I did.

We met, we hugged, and she introduced her husband who was standing apart, head averted. I welcomed him, hand stretched… and stayed with my hand stretched. Shoshana explained to me that even as a member of the family, he would never touch my hand. Nor talk to me apparently.

Anyone interested to learn about life in an orthodox family should read the books by Naomi Ragen. All of them are well written and faithfully describe the dilemmas of Jewish religion in a modern world.

Bubble

Robby

Robby

"The first commandment established monotheism with one god to focus on. In that way monotheism contributed to unity.

"The second and third commandments concerning graven images and taking g_d's name in vain simply reinforced the first notion.

"The fourth Commandment focusing on the family as a social unit made a unified microcosm of what is expected of Jews as a whole.

"Keep holy the sabbath day - one day when they can all be doing the same thing thus leading to more unity.

"The rest of the Commandments make it easier to live together.Thou shalt not kill, steal, or covet thy neighbor's wife.

"The notion of unity was, I think, fully supported by the Commandments for Jews who were not a cohesive whole at the time."

What is your reaction to Justin's theory?

Robby

Robby

Durant's comments about the Sixth Commandment:--

"The Sixth Commandment was a counsel of perfection. Nowhere is there so much killing as in the Old Testament. Its chapters oscillate between slaughter and compensatory reproduction. Tribal quarrels, internal factions and hereditary vendetta broke the monotony of intermittent peace.

"Despite a magnificent verse about ploughshares and pruning-hooks, the Prophets were not pacifists, and the priests -- if we may judge from the speeches which they put into the mouth of Yahveh -- were almost as fond of war as of preaching. Among nineteen kings of Israel, eight were assassinated. Captured cities were usually destroyed, the males put to the sword, and the soil deliberately ruined -- in the fashion of the times. Perhaps the figures exaggerate the killing. It is unbelievable that, entirely without modern inventions, 'the children of Israel slew of the Syrians one hundred thousand footmen in one day.'

"Belief in themselves as the chosen people intensified the pride natural in a nation conscious of superior abilities. It accentuated their disposition to segregate themselves maritally and mentally from other peoples, and deprived them of the international perspective that their descendants were to attain. But they had in high degree the virtues of their qualities.

"Their violence came of unmanageable vitality. Their separatism came of their piety. Their quarrelsomeness and querulousness came of a passionate sensitivy that produced the greatest literature of the Near East. Their racial pride was the indispensable prop of their courage through centuries of suffering.

"Men are what they have had to be."

Your reactions, please?

Robby

Robby

Robby

In response to your #107 post:

Most surviving WW2 veterans are over 80 years old. They recall not only their fallen comrades who died in battle, but also the kind humanity sometimes demonstrated, as well as the savage nature by both sides, when survival took precedence over our God given compassionate human nature, and turned us into "survival of the fittest" antagonists, exposing the animal nature sometimes prevalent in each other.

  On Dec.14, 1944 members of my unit, of the 3rd Inf. Div., were digging in on the western bank of the Rhine River near Strassbourg, Germany.

  We had already spent previous Christmas seasons in foxholes, in Africa in 1942, and in Italy in 1943.

  As the darkness fell one of my buddies took out his mouth organ and started to play "Silent Night" in homage to the One who had been born during this season 2000 years ago.

  Suddenly from across the river the German soldiers picked up the melody and were singing "Stille Nacht" (Silent Night) in their own lanquage and in perfect harmony with the American soldiers on the west side of the river.

  For the rest of the evening, and late into the night Christmas carols were sung jointly by two adversaries, in two different lanquages, using the same melodies, about peace and the Christ Child.

  At daybreak on Dec.16,1944, German Panzer Armies lashed out in a counter offensive, which we now know as the "Battle of the Bulge", in an effort to push us back to the English Channel and another disasterous Dunkirk.

  It was ironic that many German soldiers that died during that battle wore inscriptions on their belt buckles that said "Gott mit Uns" ( God is with us ), and we Americans had naively assumed that God was only with us.

  In retrospect, God WAS with both of us the previous night, when two adversaries were jointly singing those Christmas hymns.

  I mourn with the families of the dead from both sides.

  Pat

Robby

Robby

Durant's comments about the Seventh Commandment---

"The Seventh Commandment recognized marriage as the basis of the family, as the Fifth had recognized the family as the basis of society. It offered to marriage all the support of religion. It said nothing about sex relations before marriage, but other regulations laid upon the bride the obligation, under pain of death by stoning, to prove her virginity on the day of her marriage.

"Nevertheless prostitution was common and pederasty apparently survived the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. As the Law did not seem to prohibit relations with foreign harlots, Syrian, Moabite, Midianite and other 'strange women' flourished along the highways, where they lived in booths and tents, and combined the trades of peddler and prostitute. Solomon, who had no violent prejudices in these matters, relaxed the laws that had kept such women out of Jerusalem. In time they multiplied so rapidly there that in the days of the Maccabees the Temple itself was described by an indignant reformer as full of fornication and harlotry.

"Love affairs probably occurred, for there was much tenderness between the sexes. 'Jacob served seven years for Rachel, and they seemed unto him but a few days for the love he had to her.' But love played a very small role in the choice of mates.

"Before the Exile marriage was completely secular, arranged by the parents, or by the suitor with the parents of the bride. Vestiges of capture marriage are found in the Old Testament. Yahveh approves of it in war, and the elders, on the occasion of a 'shortage of women,' commanded the children of Benjamin, saying: 'Go and lie in wait in the vineyards, and see and behold if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances. Then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin.'

"But this was exceptional. Usually the marriage was by purchase. Jacob purchased Leah and Rachel by his toil. The gentle Ruth was quite simply bought by Boaz, and the prophet Hosea regretted exceedingly that he had given fifty shekels for his wife.

"The word for wife, beulah, meant owned. The father of the bride reciprocated by giving his daughter a dowry -- an institution admirably adapted to diminish the socially disruptive gap between the sexual and the economic maturity of children in an urban civilization."

There will be additional comments by Durant concerning the Seventh Commandment. In the meantime, what are your reactions to the comments he has made so far?

Robby

The Hebrew wording in the 6th commandment really translates as murder, not killing. Retzakh (R-tz-Kh) is a murder, a killing would be hariga (H-R-G), a complete different root of word.

Mal, to me Dr Lilienthal seems somewhat biased. I went to a serie of conferences last year on the Khazars by someone who spent a year there researching their ancient history. Apparently this tribe is little known or acknowledged in Russia. There is a small museum with Khazars artifacts but it took many months to obtain permission to have the doors open and it is kept in a very poor state of repair. Many of the written documents are illegible because they are getting so soggy. There were many Jewish motives incorporated into the sculptures, Hebrew names on tomb steles, some of them still known locally too.

Risa, good article. I think DNA would be the most substantial proof today for the origin and evolution of the people? The discovery of a ¡§Cohen Gene signature¡¨ sounds like science fiction, especially when found in the DNA of a specific tribe in South Africa. The picture of Moshe Cohen, head of the tribe, is incredible. But often reality surpasses fiction.

Rob, your minority paper was of great interest. Would I have your permission to read it to my group of volunteers? Each new group of immigrants coming to Israel feels like a discriminated minority against the older settlers.

Mal, you too have that affinity and longing with skating? ƒ¼ Bubble

Robby

"Since private property was the core of Jewish economy, the double standard prevailed: the man might have many wives, but the woman was confined to one man. Adultery meant relations with a woman who had been bought and paid for by another man; it was a violation of the law of property, and was punished with death by both parties."

A race? My first reaction has always been: of course not. I see little in common when I look around me and I don't judge up or down. But what is a race then? Is it a way of thinking, a mentality, common interests, background? or is it all physical attributes like color, features, food?

To be a Jew for me right now is to have certain traditions in common, have the same wish of belonging to an old inheritance. I am starting to believe that common or ancestral memory must have some meaning. I had no contact with the ladino culture before coming to Israel, hearing the tongue very seldom from aged grandmothers of friends in Congo. My parents never spoke it at home, although I have learned since that it was fluently spoken in their respective home as children. Not long ago I heard old spharadic ballads and was unbelievably moved by them. I started collecting books on ladino proverbs, tales, lyrics.

Last year I met by chance, while searching genealogy contacts, someone who was a second cousin of mine. Her mother lived the house opposite my mother's in Cairo. From her I heard lots of family folklore and also that my grandmother loved singing particularly those ladino ballads, She sang while doing all the chores in the house. She had nine children. She also loved knitting, painting, manual arts and was much loved by her neighbors. This new acquaintance said I resemble so much my grandmother that I could have been her. But I never met my grandparents and only have a faded picture.

A Jewish woman is mistress in her own house, but very much confine to it. Men always have had more freedom and priviledges. Arranged marriages are still very much in existence and I am always surprised to see how well it works. Or maybe there are under-currents that are not allowed to be seen. Again I urge you to read Naomi Ragen's books about the reality of married life for an orthodox woman. Bubble

In a previous post, you said you had been strongly moved by your proximity to the Wailing Wall. Despite the fact that you had not heard those sephardic ballads previously or had seen the Wailing Wall, what do you suppose your inner self is saying to you?

Robby

"Linnaeus classified four subspecies of Homo sapiens; europanus, afer, asiaticus and americanus. Most subsequent classifications recognize at least the three major subdivisions: Mongoloid, Caucasoid and Negroid. A race, it should be clear, is what zoologists term a geographic variety or subdivision of a species - characterized by a more or less distinct combination of traits (morphological, behavioral, physiological) that are heritable."

The posters in this forum multiply so fast it is hard to keep up with the subject being discussed. Your news link in post 122 "Is Human Evolution over" provided us with much food for thought at this particular time in the development of our human civilization.

When we look at the pictures taken through the Hubble telescope at the magnitude and magnificence of the Universe, we realize how insignificant we are, and yet we are part of the whole.

When we look through the microscope at the atom we see what a complex wonder of creation we are, in size gigantic to an atom, and so small, a speck of dust to a star.

The evolutionary path of creation took us from the atomic nuclei and the cell nuclei to the galactic nuclei, but it was only when the animal and human brain developed that creation took a giant leap, and that survival of the fittest prevailed,

The goal of science evolution should be the attainment of maximum attainment and consciousness for all creatures.

No individual human can hope to possess more than a tiny fraction of the knowledge in all subjects and fields now carried by our species.

  With the development of the home computer man no longer is required to think alone, and can solves all problems by becoming a part of a collective thinking entity that covers every subject and field.

  The most prevalent example of this is the internet which allows 10,000,000 computers and their users to communicate world wide.

  Although man has a limited life span, he could provide the seeds for life on other planets, and be an instrument in the creative process of the universe.

IMHO Science and knowledge without religion and belief are crippled, Religion and belief without science and knowledge are sightless. Science, knowledge, religion and belief without Revelation are impotent.

  Pat

"Probably in no other people outside of the Far East has family life reached so high a level as among the Jews."

Your additional reactions to Durant's comments about the Seventh Commandment, please?

Robby

Eloise - Yes, the dispersion of Sepahardic Jewry was caused by the Inquisition 5002 years ago. A very good novel about the dispersion is "The Book of Abraham" by Marek Halter. translated from French. Marek Halter was minister of culture in France a few years ago.

What is race? I don't know. For me just a word right now. With this discussion I am going through deep introspection.

Bubble

You say:--"With this discussion I am going through deep introspection."

I know I am doing a lot of deep thinking and I hope that this is so for other participants here. After all, this is the story of Mankind and we are talking about OUR heritage, or -- as the Heading tells us -- asking where WE came from, where WE are now, and where WE are going.

Robby

Robby

Robby

Durant's comments about the Eighth Commandment:--

"The Eighth Commandment sanctified private property and bound it up with religion and family as one of the three bases of Hebrew society. Property was almost entirely in land. Until the days of Solomon there was little industry beyond that of the potter and the smith. Even agriculture was not completely developed. The bulk of the population devoted itself to rearing sheep and cattle, and tending the vine, the olive and the fig. They lived in tents rather than houses in order to move more easily to fresh pastures.

"In time their growing economic surplus generated trade, and the Jewish merchants, by their tenacity and their skill, began to flourish in Damascus, Tyre and Sidon, and in the precincts of the Temple itself. There was no coinage until near the time of the Captivity, but gold and silver, weighed in each transaction, became a medium of exchange, and bankers appeared in great numbers to finance commerce and enterprise. It was nothing strange that these 'money-lenders' should use the courts of the Temple. It was a custom general in the Near East, and survives there in many places to this day.

"Yahveh beamed upon the growing power of the Hebrew financiers. 'Thou shalt lend unto many nations,' he said, 'but thou shalt not borrow.' -- a generous philosophy that has made great fortunes, though it has not seemed, in our century, to be divinely inspired."

Any thoughts regarding Durant's comments about the Eighth Commandment?

Robby

Yes, we are still a few centuries before the birth of Jesus. We'll stick with Durant's timeline.

Carolyn (Kiwi), in commenting upon various verses in the Bible, says: "There was good reason for some of them such as stopping the spread of infection. I actually marvelled when I read them."

Yes, Carolyn, there seems to have been an "unscientific" wisdom among the Ancients which helped them to survive.

"As in the other countries of the Near East, war captives and convicts were used as slaves, and hundreds of thousands of them toiled in cutting timber and transporting materials for such public works as Solomon's temple and palace. But the owner had no power of life and death over his slaves, and the slave might acquire property and buy his liberty. Men could be sold as bondservants for unpaid debts, or could sell their children in their place, and this continued to the days of Christ.

"These typical institutions of the Near East were mitigated in Judea by generous charity, and a vigorous campaign, by priest and prophet, against exploitation. The Code laid it down hopefully that 'ye shall not oppress one another.' It asked that Hebrew bondservants should be released, and debts among Jews canceled, every seventh year. When this was found too idealistic for the masters, the Law proclaimed the institution of the Jubilee, by which, every fifty years, all slaves and debtors should be freed. 'And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof. It shall be a Jubilee unto you, and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.'

We have no evidence that this fine edict was obeyed, but we must give credit to the priests for leaving no lesson charity untaught. 'If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren. . . thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need' and 'take thou no usury of him.'

"The Sabbath rest was to be extended to every employee, even to animals. Stray sheaves and fruits were to be left in the fields and orchards for the poor to glean. And though these charities were largely for fellow Jews, 'the stranger in the gates' was also to be treated with kindness. The sojourner was to be sheltered and fed, and dealt with honorably.

"At all times the Jews were bidden to remember that they, too, had once been homeless, even bondservants, in a foreign land."

As I read this, two thoughts come to my mind ---

1 - The above actions constituted a giant step from Primitive Man to Civilization.
2 - What underlay this giant step was "charity" to one's fellow-man.

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

"....'the stranger in the gates' was also to be treated with kindness; the sojourner was to be sheltered and fed, and dealt with honorably."

Trevor says:--"It seems that private ownership is a necessary accompaniment to civilization, in that it requires Law and Governance to protect and enforce it."

Does that imply that states which discouraged private ownership -- e.g. Soviet Union -- were or are "less civilized?"

Robby

Durant's comments about the Ninth Commandment --

"The Ninth Commandment, by demanding absolute honesty of witnesses, put the prop of religion under the whole structure of Jewish law. An oath was to be a religious ceremony. Not merely was a man, in swearing, to place his hand on the genitals of him to whom he swore, as in the old custom. He was now to be taking God himself as his witness and his judge. False witnesses, according to the Code, were to receive the same punishment that their testimony had sought to bring upon their victims.

"Religious law was the sole law of Israel. The priests and the temples were the judges and the courts, and those who refused to accept the decision of the priests were to be put to death. Ordeal by drinking of poisonous water was prescribed in certain cases of doubtful guilt. There was no other than religious machinery for enforcing the law. It had to be left to personal conscience, and public opinion.

Minor crimes might be atoned for by confession and compensation. Capital punishment was decreed, by Yahveh's instruction, for murder, kidnapping, idolatry, adultery, striking or cursing a parent, stealing a slave, or 'lying with a beast,' but not for the killing of a servant, and 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.'

"Yahveh was quite satisfied to have the individual take the law into his own hands in case of murder. 'The revenger of blood, himself shall slay the murderer; when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.' Certain cities, however, were to be set apart, to which a criminal might flee, and in which the avenger must stay his revenge.

"In general the principle of punishment was the lex talionis -- 'life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, stripe for stripe' -- we trust that this was a counsel of perfection, never quite realized.

"The Mosaic Code, though written down at least fifteen hundred years later, shows no advance, in criminal legislation, upon the Code of Hammurabi. In legal organization, it shows an archaic retrogression to primitive ecclesiastical control."

Comments, please?

Are we saying, therefore, that with Primitive Man it is "me against you" and with Civilization it is "us against them?"

Robby

Durant's comments related to the Tenth Commandment:--

"The Tenth Commandment reveals how clearly woman was conceived under the rubric of property. Nevertheless, it was an admirable precept. Could men follow it, half the fever and anxiety of our life wold be removed. Strange to say, the greatest of the commandments is not listed among the Ten, though it is part of the 'Law.' It occurs in Leviticus, xix,18, lost amid 'a repetition of sundry laws,' and reads very simply: 'Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.'"

Robby

"The so-called 'devil vs. God' approach is an anathema to Judaism because of the whiff of dualism inherent in it. God is One, and only One. He acts in many different ways, but there are no 'two' armies in the full sense of the word.



"Judaism does speak of the 'Satan/devil,' but it sees Satan as an agent of God, testing the sincerity of man's deeds, the strength of his convictions, and the stamina of his moral fiber. Although this so-called devil seems to entice man to do wrong, he is not inherently an evil being. Rather, he is conducting a 'sting' operation; overtly enticing to bad, but in reality working for God. A cursory reading of the beginning of Job conveys that message: God sends out Satan to test Job's righteousness."

"But its influence upon the conduct of the people was at least as great as that of most legal or moral codes. It gave to the Jews, through the two thousand years of wanderng which they were soon to begin, a 'portable Fatherland,' as Heine was to call it, an intangible and spiritual state. It kept them united despite every dispersion, proud despite every defeat, and brought them across the centuries to our own time, a strong and apparently indestructible people."

Before moving on, any final comments about the Mosaic Code?

Robby

As much of what we have read has indicated that the battle for survival appears to be uppermost, I was wondering if, following Trevor's thought, being civilized meant nothing more than moving on from Primitive individuals fighting (me against him) to collective wars (us against them).

Is that how we "left" the primitive condition?

It is always the tribe against the world, everywhere. Bubble

"After making every deduction for primitive legend and pious fraud -- after admitting that the historical books are not quite as accurate or as ancient as our forefathers supposed, we find in them, nevertheless, not merely some of the older historical writing known to us, but some of the best.

"The books of Judges, Samuel and Kings may, as some scholars believe, have been put together hastily during or shortly after the Exile to collect and preserve the national traditions of a scattered and broken people. Nevertheless the stories of Saul, David and Solomon are immeasurably finer in structure and style than the other historical writing of the ancient Near East. Even Genesis, if we read it with some understanding of the function of legend, is (barring its genealogies) an admirable story, told without frill or ornament, with simplicity, vividness and force.

"In a sense we have here not mere history, but philosophy of history. This is the first recorded effort of man to reduce the multiplicity of past events to a measure of unity by seeking in them some pervading purpose and significance - some law of sequence and causation - some illumination for the present and the future.

"The conception of history promulgated by the Prophets and the priestly authors of th Pentateuch survived a thousand years of Greece and Rome to become the world-view of European thinkers from Boethius to Bossuet."

What are your opinions of some of the "writings" of the Old Testament?

If you refer regularly to the GREEN quotes above which are periodically changed, you will be able to stay abreast of those who have the book. Durant divides his chapters into sub-topics and those quotes above show us what sub-topics we are on.

Robby

"A bundle of myrrh is my well-beloved unto me; he shall lie all night betwixt my breasts.
My beloved is unto me as a cluster of camphire in the vineyards of Engedi.
Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair, thou hast dove's eyes.
Behold, thou art fair, my beloved, yea, pleasant; also our bed is green
I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys...."

"Isn't it funny how divergent translations can be, even of modern letters, books, speeches ?


"Forgive me for dwelling on this just a moment longer; after all this is my field of endeavor.


"In translating a WRITTEN work, the translator must consider every word carefully, omitting nothing, while interpreting another's SPOKEN words leaves the interpreter a considerably wider berth --- and invariably involves questions of trust, loyalty, impartiality, etc."

"But all this is as irrelevant as the name or sources of Shakespeare. What matters is that the Psalms are at the head of the world's lyric poetry. They were not meant to be read at a sitting, or in a Higher Critic's mood. They are at their best as expressing moments of pious ecstasy and stimulating faith."

What beautiful and expressive verses in the Old Testament reach out to you folks?

Robby

How do you define poetry? How do you define music? Is it present in any of the verses that stick in your mind? Are there any particular verses from the Old Testament that you learned as a child that remain in your memory -- not so much for their message but for the lilting way they are presented?

I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help
My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth.

Robby

"Some of the Psalms are jewels of tenderness, or cameos of humility.

"Verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity. . . As for man, his days are as grass. As a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more (xxix,CIII).

"In these songs we feel the antistrophic rhythm of ancient Oriental poetry, and almost hear the voices of majestic choirs in alternate answering. No poetry has ever excelled this in revealing metaphor or living imagery. These poems touch us more deeply than any lyric of love. They move even the sceptical soul, for they give passionate form to the first longing of the developed mind."

Any other Old Testament verses that you folks can give as examples of beautiful poetry?

Robby

"Here and there, in the King James' Version, are pithy phrases that have become almost words in our language -- 'out of the mouths of babes' (VIII), 'the apple of the eye' (XVII), 'put not your trust in princes' (CXLVI), and everywhere, in the original, are similes that have never been surpassed -- 'The rising sun is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race' (XIX). We can only imagine what majesty and beauty must clothe these songs in the sonorous languge of their origin."

Dig in your memories, folks, or into your copy of the Old Testament. What do you come up with?

Robby

13 February 2002 UPDATE - Urgent Alert for Action: Sudan: Woman Sentenced to Death by Stoning.

The Sudanese Victims of Torture Group (SVTG), confirms that the case has been sent back to the lower court for new sentencing. The court of appeal ruled at the end of last month that the lower court should give the defendant a "rebuke" sentence, not capital punishment. Abok Alfa Akok, appealed on 3 January 2002. She is reportedly still in prison in Nyala.

The Sudanese Ambassador to the US, Khidir Ahmed, on Thursday 7 February 2002 informed Human Rights Watch that the appellate court has rejected the sentence on Abok and sent the case back to the trial court.

ROME, Feb 10 (AFP) -- Sudan's Supreme Court has overturned a death-by-stoning sentence imposed by a Sharia law court on a woman accused of adultery following international pressure, a Christian religious community announced here Sunday.

The Rome-based charitable community of Sant'Egidio said it had been informed late Saturday by the Sudanese government that the death sentence imposed under Sharia law on Abok Alfa Akok "has been reversed by the Supreme Court".

Sant'Egidio and other non-government organisations including Human Rights Watch had led pressure on Sudan, calling of President Omar Hassan Al-Bashir and members of his government to save the woman's life. Roman Catholic Cardinal Roberto Tucci had gone on Vatican Radio to call on the international community to intervene. Sant'Egidio said it was trying to confirm the reversal on Sunday.

The woman, a Christian member of Sudan's Dinka tribe, is unmarried and pregnant and was sentenced to death by a lower court for adultery, punishable by death under Sharia law imposed by the Islamic authorities in Sudan's South Darfur province. Sant'Egidio said the woman had no access to a defence lawyer under questioning, and had been unable to follow the court case, conducted in Arabic.

Islamic law applies to all residents of the northern states regardless of their religion. Sudan has been wracked by civil war between the northern Muslim government in Khartoum and rebels in the mainly Christian and animist south since independence in 1956.

A 35-year-old Nigerian woman is appealing a similar sentence imposed by Islamic authorities in northern Nigeria after an international outcry.

"The blasphemy called 'Hadith & Sunna' has instituted stoning to death as the punishment for married adulterers. This is not God's law. As stated in 24:2, the punishment for adultery is whipping in public; a hundred symbolic lashes. As pointed out above, the basic punishment is social pressure and scandalizing the criminal. Whipping in public achieves this goal."

Robby

Work is wisdom. Words are mere folly. "In all labor there is profit, but the talk of the lips tendeth only to penury...A fool uttereth all his mind, but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards...even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise."

Robby

Robby

"He ordered the clergy to put on thier most impressive vestments, and the people to garb themselves in immaculate white. Then he led the population pacifically out through the gates to solicit peace. Alexander bowed to the high priest, expressed his admiration for the people and their god, and accepted Jerusalem.

We have spent a couple of weeks traveling through Ancient Judea and seeing some of the most remarkable steps toward Civilization ever taken. What are your reactions concerning the final capture of Jerusalem and the way in which it surrendered?

Robby

Robby

Robby

TIP of the Day



Jewish Culture Tip of the Day Saturday February 16, 2002

In Deuteronomy 20:19, it is written: "When you besiege a city for many days to wage war against it...do not destroy its trees...is the tree of the field a man, that it should enter the siege before you?" According to Ibn Ezra, the famous commentator, the trees supply food and are vital to the survival of man. From this passage, the Rabbis deduced the law called in Hebrew "bal tashchit," prohibiting the wanton destruction of anything useful to man.

EMAZING Quote of the Day Life without love is like a tree without blossoms or fruit. - Kahlil Gibran, 'The Vision'
Bubble

It is very clear to me that this discussion based on Durant's volumes is helping me put some order, some new perspectives in how I see the world - ancient as well as modern - that is around me. We all have questions about what preceded us, we all are curious and want to understand where we came from and what has made us as we are. The quest continues all our live because we have that thirst of knowledge in us. This is what characterizes us from the primitive man, more than anything else does.

A lot of the ground that was covered up to now was familiar to me, Gilgamesh, the Assyrians, the evolution of writing, the Biblical era. Ancient civilizations have been an all time interest. It started in high school while translating the old Greek epics and the Latin legends. We translated the Metamorphoses and Ars Amatoria (Art of Love). Yesterday I came across part of a Sumerian poem from 2.000BC, trans. by Jane Hirshfield:

"Your spirit-do I do not know how to please it?
Bridegroom, sleep in our house till dawn.
Your heart-do I do not know how to warm it?
Lion, sleep in our house till dawn."

We gain a certain perspective while comparing different civilizations. Lately I read a lot about the South American people who disappeared so completely, the Moche for example. I am very sorry Durant never had a chance to study them and put them in the proper slot of his history.

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."

Seeing the chaos around the world, I wonder if civilization does not create its own chaos and insecurity too.

Bubble

Robby

"Iran is the only Middle Eastern state to have preserved its national identity through the upheavals of the Arab, Turkish, and Mongol invasions. It is heir to the richest culture in the Middle East -- a culture that extends far beyond the state's political boundaries.

"Iran-zamin, 'the land of Iran,' means more than a place of habitation and extends beyond the present political entity. For Iranians, Iran-zamin is that area where Iranian peoples have maintained their special way of life through centuries of invasion, social change, and political and religious turmoil. Iran-zamin is the birthplace and home of a unique Iranian culture -- the product of an ancient relationship between diverse peoples and their homeland."

But of course we know all about Persia, don't we? We see romantic movies with handsome Persian men acting "the way Persian men act." We all know the song, "Caravan," and some of might even own a "Persian" rug which was not made in Persia. Shall we drop these Western illusions and move on starting with the Medes? Durant asks:--

"Who were the Medes that had played so vital a role in the destruction of Assyria? The first mention we have of them is on a tablet recording the expedition of Shalmaneser III into a country called Parsua, in the mountains of Kurdistan (837 B.C.). There, it seems, twenty-seven chieftain-kings ruled over twenty-seven states thinly populated by a people called Amadai, Madai, Medes.

"As Indo-Europeans they had probably come into western Asia about a thousand years before Christ, from the shores of the Caspian Sea. The Zend-Avesta, sacred scriptures of the Persians, idealized the racial memory of this ancient home-land, and described it as a paradise. The Medes appear to have wandered through the region of Bokhara and Samarkand, and to have migrated farther and farther south, at last reaching Persia. They found copper, iron, lead, gold and silver, marble and precious stones, in the mountains in which they made their new home. Being a simple and vigorous people they developed a prosperous agriculture on the plains and slopes of the hills."

In thinking or reading about Persia, had any of us here first thought of the Medes which preceded them?

Robby

Robby

Robby

"The first recorded cold-climate dress in the Mediterranean world came with the invasions of the Medes (612 BC) and the Persians (539 BC). The Persians wore hose or trousers with an open tunic fastened by a belt. The Medes wore long, voluminous robes, with sleeves cut narrower at the top than at the hem. The Persians also introduced to the West the Phrygian cap of felt, often with earflaps. This headgear made its last appearance in the 18th century during the French Revolution, when it was known as the cap of liberty."

That's an old high school joke. I've been waiting over 60 years for the opportunity to use it!!!

Robby

"Found in context of destruction of city in 614 BC - (statue) head was 1700 years old when destroyed.



"How do you date artifacts? By:
style
context



"One eye of our statue has been bashed out, its ears cut off, nose hammered, beard broken. Deliberate mutilation of this image. This is a punishment particular to the Medes, the group of Iranians who destroyed Nineveh in 614 BC. For instance:



" 'Then I cut off his nose, his two ears, his tongue and blinded one eye of his. He was held in fetters at my gate. All the people could see him. Afterwards I impaled him at Ecbatana [the capital of the Medes]'"

Robby

"Under his leadership the Medes, strengthened by their natural and frugal life, and hardened by custom and environment to the necessities of war, became a threat to the power of Assyria -- which repeatedly invaded Media, thought it most instructively defeated, and found it in fact never tired of fighting for its liberty. The greatest of the Median kings, Cyaxares, settled the matter by destroying Nineveh."

The underlining is mine. Any comments regarding the Medes?

Robby

"Its tenture was too brief to permit of any substantial contribution to civilization, except in so far as it prepared for the culture of Persia."

What purpose, if any, do any of you see the Medes as having served in the progress toward Civilization as we understand it?

Robby

1 - The Medes gave their Aryan language.
2 - They gave their alphabet of 36 letters and
3 - The replacement of clay with parchment and pen
4 - Their "extensive use of the column in architecture"
5 - "Their moral code of conscientious husbandry in time of peace and limitless bravery in time of war"
6 - The Zoroastrian religion of Ahura-Mazda and Ahriman
7 - Their "patriarchal family and polygamous marriage"
8 - A body of law which was united with that of the Persia and about which Daniel said was
"a law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not."

Robby

"To Persia the Medes gave their Aryan language, their alphabet of thirty-six characters, their replacement of clay with parchment and pen as writing materials, their extensive use of the column in architecture, their moral code of conscientious husbandry in time of peace and limitless bravery in time of war, their Zoroastrian relgiion of Ahura-Mazda and Ahriman, their patriarchal family and polygamous marriage, and a body of law sufficiently like that of the later empire to be united with it in the famous phrase of Daniel about 'the law of the Medes and the Persians, which altereth not.'"

Considering their contribution, how do some of you relate this to the quote in GREEN which begins "Of their literature . . . ?"

How do you suppose they did that, Carolyn?

Robby

"When Cyrus, the brilliant young ruler of the Median dependency of Anshan, in Persia, rebelled against the effeminate despot of Ecbatana, the Medes themselves welcomed Cyrus' victory, and accepted him, almost without protest, as their king. By one engagement Media ceased to be the master of Persia. Persia became the master of Media, and prepared to become master of the whole Near Eastern world."

I'm wondering -- how could an empire disappear so rapidly?

"Cyrus was one of those natural rulers at whose coronation, as Emerson said, all men rejoice. Royal in spirit and action, capable of wise administration as well as of dramatic conquest, generous to the defeated and loved by those who had been his enemies -- no wonder the Greeks made him the subject of innumerable romances, and -- to their minds -- the greatest hero before Alexander.

"It is a disappointment to us that we cannot draw a reliable picture of him from either Herodotus or Xenophon. The former has mingled many fables with his history, while the other has made the Cyropaedia an essay on the military art, with incidental lectures on education and philosophy, at times Xenophon confuses Cyrus and Socrates."

Although we are visiting Persia, Ancient Greece is beginning to slip into the picture -- Alexander, Socrates. One civilization living alongside another.

"The first principle of Cyrus' policy was that the various peoples of his empire should be left free in their religious worship and beliefs."

Many of us here have been examining the power of the priests through Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, and Judea. What do you see happening regarding the power of the priests vs the power of the State?

I thought I never heard of the Persians. I did not realized that Cyrus, Darius and Xerxes were from there. They were always considered the enemies in those famed battles of the Greeks. The way history was taught was so very onesided. We never had the overall picture we are getting here. This is great.

Herodotus was fun to translate. He had so many anecdotes. One that is still vivid in my mind is about a soldier found dead in the depth of winter next to a body and with the ear of this enemy still in his mouth!

Bubble

May I suggest that this "overall picture" is due not only to Durant, himself, but to the "give and take" of you participants. May I also suggest that it might be time for all the many Lurkers here (and there are many of you!) to pop out again and say "Boo" or, even better, make some sort of comment about Persia. The quotes above in GREEN might be something for you to comment upon.

Robby

I wonder -- does the the above comment mean that Cyrus was NOT a barbarian? If not, why are we not describing him as such as compared to the Massageta?

I also found it of interest that his reign came to an end because he was slain by a "tribe" that hardly anyone had heard of. I thought from examining previous Civilizations that the strong always won out over the weak.

It is of interest but, as always, consider the sources of each Link.

Robby

Regarding your comment that "it remains to be seen if people really understand that in order to understand those who undertake terrorist activities against the USA, one MUST - ABSOLUTELY MUST - understand the history and culture of the countries and cultures from which they come" -- I would be very interested in knowing if anyone here feels that having participated in this forum has been beneficial in better understanding what is going on in the Near East in our time.

Please, Lurkers, now is the time to let us know what this discussion group has meant to you.

Robby

Robby

Then I thought of educational systems in Western Civilizations (of which we constantly complain), the health system which we define as deficient, the number of obese children, the short tempers at airport waiting lines, the "slow" movement of our legal system, and on and on.

And I wonder if our discussions with each other here have taught us anything. Did we gain anything from talking with each other about the Egyptian Pharaohs? The Code of Hammurabi? The Hanging Gardens of Babylon? The conquests of Cyrus or Joshua? or Sennacherib? or Thutmose III? or King Ur-engur?

The Medes destroyed Assyria. Cyrus was victorious over the Medes. And now Darius is about to take charge from Cyrus.

So what?

Robby

I agree with you completely. From time to time I point out that this is not a political discussion group and we refrain from mentioning names in the political or religious arena.

2 - Pause and think about some of the experiences recounted in Ancient Civilizations.

3 - Reactions?

Robby

Robby

What does experience show happens when one's religion is attacked?

Robby

Are we all looking at war from a negative point of view when perhaps, from an evolutionary point of view, it is vital to our survival?

Justin sees religion as a "permanent" part of Mankind. "What do religions do when attacked? Some counter attack, some go underground, few disappear. They always seem to pop up again somewhere else. I don't think it's possible to stamp out religion."

Is this also vital to survival?

Fight and pray -- fight and pray -- is this what leads to "progress"? What do you folks think?

1 - The Oriental mind swirls backwards and forwards, remembering the glory AND the humiliation of the past which, depending on the thinker/speaker, could be last year or 3 hundred years ago.
2 - To understand the people about whom we are reading and discussing, it must be almost "felt" that they are right here with us as we continue our study of their world.
3 - It is almost like reading with a "split" mind, so that the FEEL of the cultures and people who appear on our pages will be comfortable with us (and we with them) as we proceed.

Thank you, Mahlia, for helping us to get deeper into it.

Would the myth of the Phoenix bird fit in here where Self-destruction leads to Growth?

Robby

Please read the review and then share further with us, if you will, your views on the importance of "religion" in the progress of Mankind and if you believe it is "inbred."

"The governors of Egypt and Lydia refused submission, and the provinces of Susiana, Babylonia, Media, Assyria, Armenia, Sacia and others rose in simultaneous revolt.

"Darius subdued them with a ruthless hand. Taking Babylon after a long siege, he crucified three thousand of its leading citizens as an inducement to obedience in the rest. In a series of swift campaigns he 'pacified' one after another of the rebellious states. Then, perceiving how easily the vast empire might in any crisis fall to pieces, he put off the armor of war, became one of the wisest administrators in history, and set himself to re-establish his realm in a way that became a model of imperial organization until the fall of Rome.

"His rule gave western Asia a generation of such order and prosperity as that quarrelsome region had never known before."

War - peace - war - peace - war - peace. The story of Mankind, if not all organisms?

Robby

Some of the laws that were passed by civilized nations in peace time, in the name of progress, would NOT have benefitted ALL mankind.

  Following is a copy of an article I received yesterday from an organization I belong to that serves the handicapped and dis-abled:

Seventy-five years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that it was okay to forcibly sterilize people with disabilities.

This supposedly was a way to prevent the birth of the "feeble- minded" and improve the gene pool. It was a haunting foreshadowing of the application of eugenics in Nazi Germany, where tens of thousands of people with disabilities were sterilized, subjected to horrific "medical" tests, and killed.

A U.S. Supreme Court decision on May 2, 1927, upheld the Virginia Statute for Eugenical Sterilization. That led to the sterilization of about 8,000 other men and women that the state deemed as imbeciles or feebleminded.

Proponents of the eugenics movement actually had a longer list of those who should be sterilized, including beggars, tramps, alcoholics, prostitutes, the shiftless, criminals, the physically deformed, the blind and deaf and epileptics.

The motive behind the sterilizations was a fundamentally racist idea to improve the world by ridding it of human beings perceived to be flawed. The idea was bolstered by the erroneous thought that intelligence, health and virtue are solely hereditary.

The high court's decision led to the involuntary sterilization of more than 60,000 people in America.

The case's legal underpinnings also echoed through Adolph Hitler's "Law for the Prevention of Offspring with Hereditary Diseases," a 1933 decree that led the Nazis to sterilize some 2 million Europeans.

A U.S. Supreme Court decision made on May 2, 1927, upheld the Virginia Statute for Eugenical Sterilization.

That led to the sterilization of about 8,000 other men and women that the state deemed as imbeciles or feebleminded.

Proponents of the eugenics movement actually had a longer list of those who should be sterilized, including beggars, tramps, alcoholics, prostitutes, the shiftless, criminals, the physically deformed, the blind and deaf and epileptics.

The motive behind the sterilizations was a fundamentally racist idea to improve the world by ridding it of human beings perceived to be flawed. The idea was bolstered by the erroneous thought that intelligence, health and virtue are solely hereditary.

The case's legal underpinnings also echoed through Adolph Hitler's "Law for the Prevention of Offspring with Hereditary Diseases," a 1933 decree that led the Nazis to sterilize some 2 million Europeans.

It is important that we not forget the past," We should keep it in the forefront of the Standards of Learning, as part of our history and the human attempts to advance civilization.

  We're moving into a world of cloning and othe things,

We need to remember our past."

Is it possible, then, as we examine Civilization that war-type thinking can benefit the progress of Mankind equally as well as peace-type thinking?

Robby

Robby

Transferring Elizabeth's thought to some of the Ancient people we have been discussing -- imagine if some of the ruthless kings had lived 100 years. Imagine if some of the "priests" had lived for the equivalent of 3-4 of our generations! Would that have made a difference in "progress?"

Robby

I would prefer it to be curing disease, poverty, ignorance. Bubble

"....at any moment the kaleidoscope of change may throw up a new empire to challenge the old. In such a situation wars must be invented if they do not arise of their own accord; each generation must be inured to the rigors of campaigns, and taught by practice the sweet decorum of dying for one's country."

Let's see if I understand how the world works lately... If a man cuts his finger off while slicing salami at work, he blames the restaurant.

If a customer orders a hot cup of coffee at a drive in restaurant, and then spills it in her lap while driving along the highway, she sues the restaurant. If you smoke three packs a day for 40 years and die of lung cancer, your family blames the tobacco company.

If your neighbor crashes into a tree while driving home drunk, he blames the bartender.

If your grandchildren are brats, without manners, you blame television.

If your friend is shot by a deranged madman, you blame the gun manufacturer.

And if a crazed person breaks into the cockpit and tries to kill the pilot at 35,000 feet, and the passengers kill him instead, the mother of the deceased blames the airline.

I must have lived too long to understand the world as it is anymore.

  So, if I die while my old, wrinkled butt is parked in front of this computer, I want you to blame Bill Gates...okay?

Robby

"At its greatest extent, under Darius, the Persian Empire included twenty provinces or 'satrapies,' embracing Egypt, Palestine,Syria, Phoenicia, Lydia, Phrygia, Ionia, Cappadocia, Cilicia, Armenia, Assyria, the Caucasus, Babylonia, Media, Persia, the modern Afghanistan and Baluchistan, India west of the Indus, Sogdiana, Bactria, and the regions of the Massagetae and other central Asiatic tribes."

Please re-read the above list. Try to compare this area with the size of the average nation in that area today.

Robby

"Darius I, in an inscription at Naksh-i-Rustam, described himself as 'Persian, the son of a Persian, an Aryan of Aryan descent.'"

GO, MARY -- GO!! The mountains of Ancient Persia await you!!

Robby

Robby

Could we say that when the Ancient Civilizations went out to conquer other cultures, that they were "re-evaluating and re-affirming" their own principles?

Not to get too much into a semantic discussion, but mightn't that be one of the "principles" of Cyrus, Darius, and the other rulers? "Let's test our current strength." Leaders of armies are always concerned that a "standing army" with nothing to do can cause internal problems. Standing still could have been considered as going backward. Isn't Chess called one of the sports of Kings?

Did these rulers "force" their soldiers to fight or did the majority of them enjoy the "taste of blood?"

Robby

Robby

So what's new?

Then approximately 325 BCE, "after conquering Persia, Afghanistan is invaded by Alexander the Great. Alexander conquers Afghanistan but fails to really subdue its people. Constant revolts plague Alexander."

So what's new?

Time after time,
at the back of my mind,
I wonder, Is that what it's all about?

-- Trevor

"The monuments picture them as erect and vigorous, made hardy by their mountains and yet refined by their wealth, with a pleasing symmetry of features, an almost Greek straightness of nose, and a certain nobility of countenance and carriage.

"They adopted for the most part the Median dress, and later the Median ornaments. They considered it indecent to reveal more than the face. Clothing covered them from turban, fillet or cap to sandals or leather shoes. Triple drawers, a white under garment of linen, a double tunic, with sleeves hiding the hands, and a girdle at the waist, kept the population warm in winter and hot in summer. The king distinguished himself with embroidered trousers of a crimson hue, and saffron-buttoned shoes.

"The dress of the women differed from that of men only in a slit at the breast. The men wore long beards and hung their hair in curls, or later, covered it with wigs. In the wealthier days of the empire men as well as women made much use of cosmetics. Creams were employed to improve the complexion, and coloring matter was appplied to the eyelids to increase the apparent size and brilliance of the eyes. A special class of 'adorners,' called kosmetai by the Greeks, arose as beauty experts to the aristocracy.

"The Persians were connoisseurs in scents, and were believed by the Ancients to have invented cosmetic creams. The king never went to war without a case of costly unguents to ensure his fragrance in victory or defeat."

Your comments, please?

Robby

As Mal points out, perfume essences, spices, etc. were common in numerous Ancient Oriental Civilizations. I think back to my high school history telling of terrible unsanitary conditions in Medieval Europe and the many voyages looking for spices and perfumes, the East Indies Company, these leading to the discovery of America, and so on. How dependent Europe seemed to be on the Orient in those days.

And I wonder how dependent Western Civilization is on the Orient now.

And, as Mal says, be sure to click onto the thumbnail photos that interest you. It increases their power tremendously.

Robby

Here are some of my reactions. The term "men are the protectors and maintainers of women" sounds innocent and egalitarian and fair enough but upon pause, one may see that (at least in the Western mind) this makes them partners but with one being the "senior partner." Sort of like the Supreme Court decision of a century ago regarding separate schools wherein they were declared "separate but equal." As you know, that was struck down with the logic that "separate" by definition means "not equal." If I understand correctly, the women in many of these Oriental cultures are separate from the men in many many ways.

As for the women being responsible for the "upkeep of their homes and households," again that sounds so reasonable, much like the familiar Western phrase that "the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world." But we all know that while many women are rocking the cradle, almost none are "ruling the world."

Durant tells us that "they considered it indecent to reveal more than the face. Clothing covered them." And so, as far as I could discern, those of Islamic faith merely brought this custom forward from previous Civilizations. As best I can see change occurred ever so slowly millennia by millenia. Then an amazingly rapid change happened in just the last century or so -- 1776 in the United States and 1789 in France where the "people" no longer decided to follow the "strong" ones -- the rulers, priests and others - and threw off ancient customs.

Why all this happened within the psyche of the Average Man in recent centuries I don't know but happened it did and, as usual, older folks (older cultures) say: "I don't know what has gotten into these youngsters" and if the youngsters are still small enough, they take the paddle to them -- like the big paddle on September 11th.

Well, this is a much longer post than this Discussion Leader usually writes so it's time to go back to listening to everyone else.

Robby

"Many languages have been used in the long history of Persia. The speech of the court and the nobility in the days of Darius I was Old Persian -- so closely related to Sanskrit that evidently both were once dialects of an older tongue, and were cousins to our own. Old Persian developed on the one hand into Zend -- the language of the Zend-Avesta -- and on the other hand into Pahlavi, a Hindu tongue from which has come the Persian language of today.

"When the Persians took to writing they adopted the Babylonian cuneiform for their inscriptions, and the Aramaic alphabetic script for their documents. They simplified the unwieldly syllabary of the Babylonians from three hundred characters to thirty-six signs which gradually became letters instead of syllables, and constituted a cuneiform alphabet."

We take our alphabet and our English language for granted. We teach our toddlers the ABC's without any thought of what happened in Persia over 2,000 years ago and its effect on what our youngsters are learning. Have any of you ever given thought to the origin of our alphabet?

Robby

Mother = matar (Old Persian); meter (Greek); mater (Latin); Mutter (German)
Father = pitar (Old Persian); pater (Greek); pater (Latin); Vater (German)
Name = nama (Old Persian); onoma (Greek); nomen (Latin); Nahme (German)

Robby

Iran is usually considered to be an Arab country and this is a serious error. It is a Moslem country, whose writing is founded on the Arab alphabet but there stops all comparison. They are Indo European, in between the East with India, and the West with Europe. The main language is called Farsi (The P does not exist in Arabic).

In Iran maybe 40 millions talk Farsi, but so do 5 millions of Afghans, 3 millions of Tadjiks in former Soviet Union. Tadjiks is written in Cyrillic characters but is a dialectic form of Farsi.

Among the languages related to Farsi, we have the Kurd, the Balushe and the Ossete. The cultural influence of Iran exists from Turkey to China, alonf the old silk road.

Parsi could be compared to Japanese in the expression of polite formulas. Polite people would not use the verb "goftan" (I say) but would use "arz Konam" -I request to express-. On the telephone, Allo would be "gushi" but it is better to use the expression "gusshi khedmattan Basche which could be translated litteraly as -the listener is at your service.

Many of the words in Farsi are made of composed nouns. a sudent for example -daneshjow translates as a seeker of knowledge (jostan, to seek and danesh knowledge). A kitchen is ashpaszkhane (khane= house, paz= to cook; ash= soup). Bubble

"The Zend-Avesta exalted agriculture as the basis and noblest occupation of mankind, pleasing above all other labors to Ahura-Mazda, the supreme god. Some of the land was tilled by peasant proprietors, who occasionally joined several families in agricultural cooperatives to work extensive areas together.

"Part of the land was owned by feudal barons, and cultivated by tenants in return for a share of the crop. Part of it was tilled by foreign (never Persian) slaves. Oxen pulled a plough of wood armed with a metal point. Artificial irrigation drew water from the mountains to the fields. Barley and wheat were the staple crops and foods, but much meat was eaten and much wine drunk.

"Cyrus served wine to his army, and Persian councils never undertook serious discussions of policy when sober -- though they took care to revise their decisions the next morning. One intoxicating drink, the haoma, was offered as a pleasant sacrifice to the gods, and was believed to engender in its addicts not excitment and anger, but righteousness and piety."

Feudal Barons? Co-operatives?

Robby

Robby

Mahlia, Women too are separated from their men folks in the services at the synagogue, they are hidden behind a curtain, far behind and in some cases on a higher balcony. This is so that men's minds will not stray from the prayer. They are said to be so weak. It is also the reason invoked for the covering of the head, arms, legs for married women. It seems there is much in common with the Persians.
Here we are used already to see the Arab women, in veil hanging to the waist, taking driving lessons with an Israeli monitor.

Faith's poem is beautiful. I wish I could read Persian poetry: it always loses a flavor in translation.

Very interesting article in the NYT, Robbie. Will we ever know? Bubble

Perhaps, as we notice this, we may find it easier to understand our own Oriental Heritage. There may be thousands of years between us but they were continuous years. We of the Western Civilization are not an alien "race" that arrived from another planet. It is so easy to note differences but we may ignore, perhaps consciously, the many similarities because we want to feel different.

Primitive Man had clans. Sumerians had clans. Ancient Judea had clans. Do we have "clans?" Ancient Egypt had power struggles. Assyria had power struggles. Do we have power struggles? Voltaire's question (above) remains.

Robby

So let me get this straight now. Medieval England -- just a few centuries ago -- did not have safe roads due to the "highwaymen." And then we Americans were so proud of our Pony Express which got underway a little over a century ago. And then there is our wonderful Interstate Highway (built only in the past century) which we proudly say goes thousands of miles. The Ancient Persians built a highway 1,500 miles long over 2,000 years ago. Please help me. What is "primitive?" What is "civilized?"

Robby

Durant said:--"Roads led through the Afghanistan passes to India, and made Susa a half-way house to the already fabulous riches of the East."

Apparently what we now call Afghanistan was a significant part of the Persian Empire and not the desolate area we tend to see in our eyes today when we talk or think of Afghanistan.

What are your thoughts on this?

Robby

Robby

Robby

While Sumeria and Babylonia are long gone, we still have Iran which contains much of the Ancient Persian history. Perhaps as we move along in this forum, we will learn not only our own cultural habits derived from an Oriental source, but will learn more about currently existing Oriental nations which seem "foreign" to us only because we never made the effort to understand them.

Aside:--I remember vividly the 1939 Worlds Fair. Where does that put me?

Shoshan is the place where Queen Esther married Assuerus (biblical name for Artaxerxes apparently) and so saved the Hebrew people from the evil Amman. This is what we commemorate this week during the festival and carnaval of Purim. Assuerus sent away his former wife Vashti and organised a parade of the most beautiful maidens in his kingdom. He chose Esther, niece of Mordechai. Amman, his vizir, was jealous of the proud Hebrews who refused to bend in submission to him; he decided to have them killed. Esther managed to show the plot and have Amman and his sons hanged instead.

What a coincidence that it is in this week that we have reached Shoshan. Bubble

Let it never be said that this forum is not up to date!

Robby

Perhaps as we follow Durant from culture to culture, the answer may be gradually forthcoming.

"Commerce was for the most part abandoned to foreigners -- Babylonians, Phoenicians and Jews. The Persians despised trade, and looked upon a market place as a breeding-ground of lies. The wealthy classes took pride in supplying most of their wants directly from their own fields and shops, not contaminating their fingers with either buying or selling."

Do we hear here a touch of snobbishness -- not only on the part of the "wealthy classes" but most of the Ancient Persians in general? Do you think they considered themselves just a bit above the Babylonians, Phoenicians, Jews and others?

"The imperial organization was one of the most unique and competent in history. At its head was the king, or Khshathra -- i.e. warrior. The title indicates the military origin and charcter of the Persian monarchy. Since lesser kings were vassal to him, the Persian ruler entitled himself 'King of Kings' and the ancient world made no protest against his claim. The Greeks called him simply Basileus -- the King.

"His power was theoretically absolute. He could kill with a word, without trial or reason given, after the manner of some very modern dictator. Occasionally he delegated to his mother or his chief wife this privilege of capricious slaughter.

"The father whose innocent son had been shot before his eyes by the king merely complimented the monarch on his excellent archery. Offenders bastinadoed by the royal order thanked His Majesty for keeping them in mind. Later monarchs delegated most of the cares of government to noble subordinates or imperial eunuchs, and spent their time at love, dice or the chase.

"The court was overrun with eunuchs who, from their coigns of vantage as guards of the harem and pedagogues to the princies, stewed a poisonous brew of intrigue in every reign. The king had the right to choose his successor from among his sons, but ordinarily the succession was determined by assassination and revolution."

Absolute power? Privilege of mother or chief wife? Court intrigue? Behind-the-scenes power of the eunuchs? Succession by assassination? Much to comment on here.

Robby

Robby

I am not the expert here to answer but it is my understanding that Iran is the "descendant" of Persia. The Empire was, of course, far larger.

Robby

Civilization marches on.

"Out of his great love for wisdom and righteousness he withdrew from the society of men, and chose to live in a mountain wilderness on cheese and the fruits of the soil. The Devil tempted him, but to no avail.. His breast was pierced with a sword, and his entrails were filled with molten lead. He did not complain, but clung to his faith in Ahura-Mazda -- the Lord of Light -- as supreme god. Ahura-Mazda appeared to him and gave into his hands the Avesta, or Book of Knowledge and Wisdom, and bade him preach it to mankind."

And so another belief enters Mankind. Your comments, please?

Robby

"Perhaps Darius I, who accepted the new doctrine, saw in it a faith that would both inspire his people and strengthen his government. From the moment of his accession, he declared war upon the old cults and the Magian priesthood, and made Zoroastrianism the religion of the state."

So at one fell swoop, what was a religion became a "cult." And at one fell swoop (I love that term!), a Civilization that was multitheistic became monotheistic. It seems that gods just come and go.

Robby

Robby

One Civilization (India) touching another Civilization (Persia.)

Robby

Well said. This principle is one of the underlying thoughts throughout our move from Civilization to Civilization.

"The soul of man, like the universe, was represented as a battleground of beneficent and maleficent spirits. Every man was a warrior, whether he liked it or not, in the army of either the Lord or the Devil. Every act or omission advanced the cause of Ahura-Mazda or of Ahriman.

"It was an ethic even more admirable than the theology -- if men must have supernatural supports for their morality. It gave to the common life a dignity and significance grander than any that could come to it from a world-view that looked upon man as a helpless worm or as a mechanical automaton.

"Human beings were not, to Zarathustra's thinking, mere pawns in this cosmic war. They had free will, since Ahura-Mazda wished them to be personalities in their own right. They might freely choose whether they would follow the Light or the Lie."

Any mingling here of religion and ethics? Any change in the relationship between Man and Deity? Any similarity between the Zoroastrian ethics practiced by the Ancient Persians and our current-day approach? Have we "inherited" anything from this Oriental culture?

How do you folks see this?

Robby

Robby

Robby

The Persians, according to Herodotus, esteem themselves to be by far the most excellent of men in evey respect."

Anyone interested in comparing these philosophies with the GREEN quote above which begins "Out of the general conception...?"

Would that, in your opinion and in the opinion of others here, be one of the marks of Civilization? That as Mankind moves forward, one begins more to "think for oneself?"

Peter, good to see your posts again. The word "obvious" is obviously a powerful word.

Robby

Religions come and go?

Robby

Robby

"After his death the old priesthood of 'Wise Men' or Magi conquered him as priesthoods conquer in the end every vigorous rebel or heretic -- by adopting and absorbing him into their theology. They numbered him among the Magi and forgot him."

Interesting concept -- conquering by absorbing.

Robby

P.S. Yes, we will be in India not too long from now!

Would you care to explain it to me, please? Or at least give examples because, frankly, I personally can't see that. Bubble

"Fravartish was seized and brought to me. I cut off his nose and ears, and I cut out his tongue, and I put out his eyes. At my court he was kept in chains. All the people saw him. Later i crucified him in Ecbatana. Ahura-Mazda was my support.

"Traitors were dealt with without sentiment. They and their leaders were crucified. Their followers were sold as slaves. Their towns were pillaged. Their boys were castrated. Their girls were sold into harems."

But Durant adds:

It would be unfair to judge the people from their kings. Virtue is not news., and virtuous men, like happy nations, have no history. Even the kings showed on occasion a fine generosity and were known among the faithless Greeks for their fidelity. A treaty made with them could be relied upon, and it was their boast that they never broke their word."

Just what were the manners and morals of this Civilization anyway? Primitive? Civilized? How would you judge them?

Robby

"They thought it unbecoming to eat or drink anything in the street, or publicly to spit or blow the nose. Untl the reign of Xerxes the people were abstemious in food and drink, eating only one meal per day, and drinking nothing but water. Cleanliness was rated as the greatest good after life itself."

Does any of this ring a bell?

Any reactions?

Robby

"Matches were arranged by the parents on the arrival of their children at puberty. The range of choice was wide, for we hear of the marriage of brother and sister, father and daughter, mother and son. Concubines were for the most part a luxury of the rich. The aristocracy never went to war without them. In the later days of the empire the king's harem contained from 329 to 360 concubines, for it had become a custom that no woman might share the royal couch twice unless she was overwhelmingly beautiful."

Robby

I have two reactions to this.

1 - We also have in this forum frequent posters who have indicated by their remarks that religion is an important part of their life. This, to me, makes for a properly balanced discussion group. More importantly, they respect each other's point of view regardless of their background and beliefs. This is what makes this discussion group one of the most active and scintillating groups in the Books & Literature folder. Ginny, B&L host, has stated this on more than one occasion.

2 - "Religion" is only one of the many sub-topics as we discuss "The Story of Civilization." Durant is quoted in the Heading above as saying: "Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. " Those who have been with this discussion group since its inception four months ago (a very long time as duration goes within the Books & Literature folder) know that we sometimes go days and even weeks without the topic of religion entering the discussion. There is much more to cover in examining the progress of Mankind.

I suspect that practically every author has his/her own bias, even if subconsciously. For us not to read or study such books would be to deprive ourselves. We do three things in this forum -- we read, we discuss, and we think. We then come to our own conclusions but, in the process, find that we know just that much more about the long trip from Barbarism to Civilization.

Thank you for your views on this, Peter. It gives me an opportunity to expand on the purpose of this discussion group. As for your being unable to obtain the book, the GREEN quotes above which are periodically changed will help you to keep up with the rest of us. And thank you for your constant participation.

For those who have the book, we are on Page 376.

The above quote comes from the website Will Durant Online. At that site is information about the man who is called "the gentle philosopher" and his wife, Ariel. Will and Ariel Durant spent a good part of their adult lives travelling to the countries mentioned in the eleven volumes of The Story of Civilization and researching what is written in these books.

Will Durant was born in Massachusetts, raised as a Catholic and educated in Catholic parochial schools. He attended a Catholic college. He met his wife, Ariel, who was raised as a Jew, when teaching at a liberal, non-religious school, and it wasn't long before they began this mammoth investigation of history and the arduous task of researching and writing these volumes.

Ariel described her husband as a thinker, like a "little priest in a cell" and said she brought life and the world to him. As different as they were in background and age, they worked together very well, had a strong, close marriage and produced one of the greatest works on history which has ever been written. The Durants are respected as fine historians the world over.

Some people in this discussion have felt somehow threatened by the book we're discussing, Our Oriental Heritage. I personally found myself looking at history and people in a different, more circumspect way, a way that at times was disturbing. It was disturbing because it forced me out of an area I truly did not think was limited, but which really was.

To me, Durant's personal views on various religions, science, art, morals, governments and other aspects of history do not seem biased. Through comments made in this discussion which have been stimulated by the book and quotes from it which Robby posts, my mind has opened up to other religions than my own personal one and other points-of-view which I had not considered before. I have been able to relate my own country and my own time to ones in the past about which I did not know much at all in a way I never before thought possible.

To me, one of the greatest things about this discussion is that there have not been personal attacks or attacks on the many different beliefs and ideas we participants hold. Through this discussion has come to me more open-mindedness and a greater tolerance for ideas which are different from mine as well as the sense of belonging to a family of friends who share the discussion of this book and remain friends whether we agree or not. All of this has been stimulated by this work by Will and Ariel Durant.

Mal

Like no decision is a decison, no belief in anything is a belief that there is nothing to believe in. which is then a belief.

Tiger Tom

"The caravan road now crosses the bare platform that once bore the palaces of Cyrus and his mad son. Of these nothing survives except a few broken columns here and there, or a door-jamb bearing the features of Cyrus in bas-relief. Nearby, on the plain, is the tomb, showing the wear of twenty-four centuries -- a simple stone chapel, quite Greek in restraint and form, rising to some thirty-five feet in height upon a terraced base. Once, surely, it was a loftier monument, with some fitting pedesaal. Today it seems a little bare and forlon, having the shape but hardly the substance of beauty."

Robby

"It was the ensemble that made Persian architecture individual and different -- an aristocratic taste that refined the overwhelming columns of Egypt and the heavy masses of Mesopotamia into the brilliance and elegance, the proportion and harmony of Perseplis."

Just another example of how Civilizations influence each other. How about our own current-day architecture? Any similarity to the architecture of Ancient Persia or related Civilizations?

The emphasis is mine. Most participants to this discussion group and to the discussion group, "Democracy in America" which last year completed 13 months of discussion, found that they are fast-paced and that skipping one day can mean missing important items. Of course, many participants, even though checking in daily, just lurk and only post when there is an item of interest to them.

You may also find it helpful to visit some of the earlier postings by clicking onto the Link just below my name above. You may be surprised at the length of time taken when items having nothing whatsoever to do with religion are discussed.

"The empire of Darius lasted hardly a century. The decline of Persia anticipated almost in detail the decline of Rome. Immorality and degeneration among the people accompanied violence and negligence on the throne. The Persians, like the Medes before them, passed from stoicism to epicurianism in a few generations.

"Eating became the principal occupation of the aristocracy. These men who had once made it a rule to eat but once a day now interpreted the rule to allow them one meal -- prolonged from noon to night. They stocked their larders with a thousand delicacies, and often served entire animals to their guests. They stuffed themselves with rich rare meats, and spent their genius on new sauces and desserts.

"A corrupt and corrupting multitude of menials filled the houses of the wealthy, while drunkeness became the common vice of every class."

Anything here ring a bell?

"It is in the nature of an empire to disintegrate soon, for the energy that created it disappears from those who inherit it, at the very time its subject peoples are gathering strength to fight for their lost liberty. Nor is it natural that nations diverse in language, religion, morals and traditions should long remain united; there is nothing organic in such a union, and compulsion must repeatedly be applied to maintain this artificial bond. Persia did nothing to lessen this heterogeneity, these centrifugal forces; she was content to rule a mob of nations, and never thought of making them into a state."

"The only real soldiers in the Persian army were the Greeks."

Perhaps another lesson for us to learn?

Robby

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Robby

"Alexander treated the Persian ladies with a chivalry that surprised the Greek historians, contenting himself with marrying one of the daughters. If we may believe Quintus Curtius, the mother of Darius became so fond of Alexander that after his death she put an end to her own life by voluntary starvation."

Any comments?

Robby

"Alexander organized Persia into a province of the Macedonian Empire, left a strong garrison to guard it, and marched on to India."

What ever happened to Persia?

Robby

Robby

Robby

"Following the northern frontier eastward we strike Afghanistan. Here is Kandahar, the ancient Ganhara, where Greek and Hindu sculpture fused for a while, and then parted never to meet again. And north of it is Kabul, from which the Moslems and the Moguls made those bloody raids that gave them India for a thousand years. Within the Indian frontier, a short day's ride from Kabul, is Peshawar, where the old northern habit of invading the south still persists."

Any familiar names here which you might not have recognized six months ago?

Robby

Robby

"Note how near to India Russia comes at the Pamirs and the passes of the Hindu Kush. Hereby will hang much politics. Directly at the northern tip of India is the province of Kashmir, whose very name recalls the ancient glory of India's textile crafts.

"South of it is the Punjab, i.e. "Land of the Five Rivers" -- with the great city of Lahore, and Shimla, former capital at the foot of the Himalayas, 'Home of the Snow.'

"Through the western Punjab runs the mighty river Indus, a thousand miles in length. Its name came from the native word for river, sindhu, which the Persians (changing it to Hindu) applied to all northern India in their word Hindustan, i.e. 'Land of the Rivers'. Out of this Persian term Hindu, the invading Greeks made for us the word India."

Here are more words which are seen regularly in the news of our day and perhaps these words will become a bit more meaningful to us as we read the news and read Durant's comments.

Robby

"From the Punjab the Jumna and the Ganges flow leisurely to the southeast. The Jumna waters the new capital at Delhi and mirrors the Taj Mahal at Agra. The Ganges broadens down to the Holy City, Benares, waters ten million devotees daily, and fertilizes with its dozen mouths the province of Bengal and the old British capital at Calcutta.

"Still father east is Burma, with the golden pagodas of Rangoon and the sunlit road to Mandalay. South of the Indus, if flying, one would pass over Rajputana, land of the heroic Rajputs, with its famed cities of Gwalior and Ghitor, Jaipur, Ajmer, and Udaipur.

"South and west is the 'Presidency' or province of Bombay, with teeming cities at Surat, Ahmedabad, Bombay and Poona. East and south lie the progressive native-ruled states of Hyderabad and Mysore, with picturesque capitals of the same names.

"On the west coast is Goa, and on the eastern coast is Pondicherry, where the conquering British have left to the Portuguese and the French respectively a few square miles of territorial consolation. Along the Bay of Bengal the Madras Presidency runs, with the well-governed city of Madras as its center, and the sublime and gloomy temples of Tanjore, Trichinopoly, Madura and Rameshvaram adorning its southern boundaries.

"And then 'Adam's Bridge' -- a reef of sunken islands -- beckons us across the strait to Ceylon, where civilization flourished sixteen hundred hears ago. All these are a little part of India."

Doesn't all this stir up in you memories of what you studied briefly in school? The famed Taj Mahal? The Ganges? The infamous "black hole of Calcutta?" Stories of the Sultans? Can't you hear a baritone booming out the song (On the Road to Mandalay - Where the Flying Fishes Play) -- set to the famous poem by Rudyard Kipling? Are you beginning to be aware of the immensity of the Civilization we are now about to visit?

Firms for around the world bring here their orders for such or such a new program and crews of young people work to create it, test it and overcome all the bugs. They spend days and night awake until they accomplish this, not even paid overtime but proud of having succeeded as one of them explained to the reporter. Labor is much cheaper in India of course.

From elementary school, the children are trained for this trade and show an unbelievable patience for staying hours long in front of their screen.

Poona, the new capital for programmers. Bubble

Robby

South of the river valleys the sun rules as an unchecked despot. The plains are dry and bare, and require for their fruitful tillage no mere husbandry but an almost stupefying slavery. Englishmen do not stay in India more that five years at a time and if a hundred thousand of them rule three thousand times their number of Hindus, it is because they have not stayed there long enough."

Climate almost as varied as all of Europe? Had we been thinking of India solely as a tropical area?

Robby

South of the river valleys the sun rules as an unchecked despot. The plains are dry and bare, and require for their fruitful tillage no mere husbandry but an almost stupefying slavery. Englishmen do not stay in India more that five years at a time and if a hundred thousand of them rule three thousand times their number of Hindus, it is because they have not stayed there long enough."

Climate almost as varied as all of Europe? Had we been thinking of India solely as a tropical area?

India has all extremes in its climate, freezing nights and sweltering days in summer, fierce rains with floods and periods of droughts.

In boarding college in England, I met Indians girls, Pakistanis and Iranians. They were with no exception soft spoken, well mannered and very polite. So much so that at times I wondered if it was sincere or just the product of a certain education. I was quite friendly with a Pakistani girl from Lahore, she spoke Urdu and had a most artistic looking script in that language. I was very sorry not to be able to have letter contact with her once I came to Israel, since there was no diplomatic ties between the two countries. Bubble

How sad that decisions made by governments can affect the ability to have personal relationships.

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"In the days when historians supposed that history had begun with Greece, Europe gladly believed that India had been a hotbed of barbarism until the 'Aryan' cousins of the European people had migrated from the shores of the Caspian to bring the arts and sciences to a savage and benighted peninsula. Recent researches have marred this comforting picture -- as future researches will change the perspective of these pages.

"Remains of an Old Stone Age fill many cases in the museums of Calccutta, Madras and Bombay. Neolithic objects have been found in nearly every state in India. These, however, were cultures, not yet a civilization. In 1924 the world of scholarship was again aroused by news from India. Sir John Marshall announced that his Indian aides, R.D. Banerji in particicular, had discovered at Mohenjo-daro, on the western bank of the lower Indus, remains of what seemed to be an older civilization than any yet known to historians."

Another example of "Western ego?" Your thoughts, please.

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Please do not get into the Muslim side of it as we have thousands of years to go before touching that culture. Let us merely for the moment try to get inside the minds of millions of people living in India today.

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I have had the great luck to meet him personnaly and to hear him talk about his adventures in Tibet in the 50s. This has been the inspiration for the film by the same name as his book: Seven years in Tibet.

LIfe in the villages in the mountains has remained unchanged for centuries, dictated by the harsh climate and the difficult access. Of course India was more open to the external world than Tibet, but the western world influence took a long time to reach the inland.

But there is no doubt that there is a very old civilization there and traditions that fo far back. I do not know if the western influence means progress when it changes the old values. It certainly was not for the Ethiopians coming here who jumped from an agricultural family-geared life to a highly technical one. Suddenly the elders were the ignorant ones and the family unit lost its meaning. Bubble

If you read CNN on line yesterday, the picture of the young man with the wound on his back, hopping toward the ambulance, was the son of a reader at the library. Fate.
Bubble

"At Harappa, a few hundred miles to the north of Mohenjo-daro, four or five superimposed cities were excavated, with hundreds of solidly-built brick houses and shops, ranged along wide streets as well as narrow lanes, and rising in many cases to several stories.

"Among the finds at these sites were household utensils and toilet outfits -- pottery painted and plain, hand-turned and turned on the wheel - terracottas - dice and chess-men - coins older than any previously known - over a thousand seals, most of them engraved, and inscribed in an unknown pictographic script - faience work of excellent quality - stone carving superior to that of the Sumerians - copper weapons and implements - and a copper model of a two-wheeled cart (one of our oldest examples of a wheeled vehicle.)

"Gold and silver bangles, ear-ornaments, necklaces and other jewelry so well finished and so highly polished, according to Sir John Marshall, that they might have come out of a Bond Street jeweler's of today rather than from a prehistoric house of 5,000 years ago."

Houses many stories high? Highly polished jewelry? Wheeled vehicles? 5,000 years ago? In the Orient?

Robby

We understand and want to her to rest, get well quickly, and return to us.

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"The indications are that Mohenjo-daro had commercial, religious and artistic connections with Sumeria and Babylonia, and that it survived over three thousand years, until the third century before Christ."

A Civilization lasting over three thousand years? How old is the United States? How old is what we call Western Civilization?

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How can the upper layer be less developed than the lower layer?

Robby

Once again, as Hubert emphasizes, it becomes evident that all of us here in the Western Civilization have an "oriental heritage."

Thank you, Dig Girl, for giving those possible answers. It makes one to think if the possibility existed that "there was a MUCH older and MORE developed civilization (lower level) which gave way (died) to another community of lesser developement (upper level)." In other words, Mankind does not always progress!

"Forever the north produces rulers and warriers, the south produces artists and saints, and the meek inherit heaven."

Much meat here! Once again the influence of seafarers. The fact that those in the southern part of india were "dark-skinned, broad-nosed" and already "civilized." Taxation already in existence. The ancient Dravidian customs still in existence. The ever-existing power of the north over the south. Is this, in many ways, the India of today?

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Languages are separated as: - a] indo-europeans such as based on latin, germanic, celtic, slav and iranian; - b] Dravidians and semitic( arabic, Hebrew, Maltese, Amharic), Shamitic (Somalic, Afar, Galla) and Kushitic; -c] glutinous such as Basque, Finno Ugrian, Turkish, Mongol, Japanese and Corean, and the Ameridien languages; -d] tonal from Asia such as Chinese, Tibeto-Birman, Thai and Vietnamese; -e] Malay, Polynesian and Khmer; -f] primitive from Oceania (Malaisian, Papu and Arborigenes from Australia); -g] all the African languages.

The four languages from South India are much related and are called Dravidians. They are Tamul, Telugu, Malayalam, Kannara also called Kannada. These languages are similar as French and Italian for someone who studied Latin.

For example the word eye in Tamul is kan, in Malayalam kannu, in Kannada kannu, in Telugu kannu; tooth in Tam. is pal, in M. pallu, in K. hallu, in Telu. pannu; hand in Tam. is kai, in M. kayyu, in K. kai, in Telu. tsheyi. The numbers too are very similar. Bubble

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"They were too primitive to be hypocrites. They subjugated India without pretending to elevate it. They wanted land, and pasture for their cattle. Their word for war said nothing about national honor, but simply meant 'a desire for more cows.' Slowly they made their way eastward along the Indus and the Ganges, until all Hindustan was under their control."

Yout thoughts, please?

Robby

"The first caste division, therefore, was not by status but by color. It divided long noses from broad noses - Aryans from Nagas and Dravidians. It ws merely the marriage regulation of an endogamous group. In its later profusion of hereditary, racial and occupational devisions, the caste system hardly existed in Vedic times. Among the Aryans themselves, marriage (except of near kin) was free, and status was not defined by birth."

Sound familiar?

Robby

Carolyn (Kiwi Lady) calls our attention to the fact that "many of the problems in India today relate back to the caste system." From time to time we may bring up events or behaviors in today's India that hark back to ancient customs.

Robby

"The religious theories explain how the four Varnas were founded, but they do not explain how the Jats in each Varna or the untouchables were founded. According the Rig Veda, the ancient Hindu book, the primal man - Purush - destroyed himself to create a human society. The different Varnas were created from different parts of his body. The Brahmans were created from his head; the Kshatrias from his hands; the Vaishias from his thighs and the Sudras from his feet. The Varna hierarchy is determined by the descending order of the different organs from which the Varnas were created. Other religious theory claims that the Varnas were created from the body organs of Brahma, who is the creator of the world."

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"Aharon Daniel, was born in Mumbai, India and resides in Israel. As an Indian born who studied there in school, he had some knowledge about India. But his interest in researching about India began in mid 1990s, when he had to write seminar papers for his bachelor degree in Social Sciences. Since, he has been researching, publishing and web publishing about India.



"Aharon holds a bachelor's degree in Social Sciences and a certificate as information consultant."

"But caste-like divisions are neither uniquely Indian nor has Indian society been as socially stagnant as commonly believed. In all non-egalitarian societies where wealth and political power were unequally distributed, some form of social inequity appeared and often meant hereditary privileges for the elite and legally (or socially) sanctioned discrimination against those considered lower down in the social hierarchy.



"In fact, caste-like divisions are to be found in the history of most nations - whether in the American continent, or in Africa, Europe or elsewhere in Asia. In some societies, caste-like divisions were relatively simple, in others more complex. For instance, in Eastern Africa some agricultural societies were divided between land-owning and landless tribes (or clans) that eventually took on caste-like characteristics. Priests and warriors enjoyed special privileges in the 15th C. Aztec society of Mexico as did the Samurais (warrior nobles) and priests of medieval Japan.

Notions of purity and defilement were also quite similar in Japanese society and members of society who carried out "unclean" tasks were treated as social outcasts - just as in India. European feudalism provided all manner of hereditary privileges for the knights and landed barons (somewhat akin to India's Rajputs and Thakurs) and amongst the royalty, arranged marriages and dowry were just as common as in India. Discrimination against the artisans was also commonplace throughout Europe, and as late as the 19th century - artisans in Germany had to go through a separate court system to seek legal redress. They were not permitted to appeal to courts that dealt with the affairs of the nobility and the landed gentry. (For instance, Beethoven wrote numerous letters to German judicial authorities pleading that he not be treated as a second-class citizen - that as Germany's pre-eminent composer he deserved better treatment.)"

"As we have said, there is an orientalism in the most restless pioneer, and the farthest west is but the farthest east."

Maybe this helps to answer the question in an earlier posting as to why, when digging down, one found the more "civilized" culture deeper than the more simple one.

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"Woodworkers, metalworkers, stoneworkers, leatherworkers, ivoryworkers, basketmakers, housepainters, decorators, potters, dyers, fishermen, sailors, hunters, trappers, butchers, confectioners, barbers, shampooers, florists, cooks -- the very list reveals the fullness and variety of Indo-Aryan life."

I am wondering, then -- what is the difference between their lives and ours?

Robby

Is this what we are learning from Story of Civilization in the long run?

Robby

"Since some of these spirits were good and some evil, only great skill in magic could keep the body from being possessed or tortured, in sickness or mania, by one or more of the innumeraable demons tht filled the air. Hence the medley of incanatations in the Atharva-veda, or Book of the Knowledge of Magic. One must recite spells to obtain children, to avoid abortion, to prolong life, to ward off evil, to woo sleep, to destroy or harass enemies."

A reminder that the title of the book we are reading is Our Oriental Heritage. Do any of you folks see any of the above as having been passed down to our current-day thinking?

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"These gods are human in figure, in motive, almost in ignorance. One of them, besieged by prayers, ponders what he should give his devotee. 'This is what I will do -- no, not that. I will give him a cow -- or shall it be a horse?' Some of them, however, rose in later Vedic days to a majestic moral significance."

Do you folks see any difference between the gods that developed in India as compared to the gods in the other Civilizations we visited? Or perhaps similarities?