Robby

"About the year 444 B.C. Ezra, a learned priest, called the Jews together in solemn assembly, and read to them, from morn to midday, the 'Book of the Law of Moses.' "

"He calls such questions 'the jungle, the desert, the puppet-show, the writhing, the entanglement, of speculation' and will have nothing to do with them. They lead only to feverish disputation, personal resentments, and sorrow. They never lead to wisdom and peace. Saintliness and content lie not in knowledge of the universe and God, but simply in selfless and beneficent living."

Robby

The Rosebush - The Bhairava Explains the Function of the Jivamala Practice Using a Metaphor


"During spiritual evolution, individuals are like rose bushes, and each blossom is a life. Sometimes as in the case of difficult and painful lives, the roses are eaten by insects, or harmed by chemicals or disease, but they still stay on the bush, taking nutrients. They need to be taken from the bush, placed in new earth and cured of pests, or scattered on the ground if the harm is too great.



"The individual's past personalities have been damaged, but not destroyed. They need to be separated from the stem of the individual's spirit, where they have been taking vital energy with their rage and fury at imprisonment. They need to be replanted, put in vases, and taken away from the stem, so that the bush can grow new roses.



"The Jivamala brings about this liberation from spiritual death by freeing these past personalities, in order to recapture the bright force of spirit that runs through the individual."

I am wondering if this implies death.

Robby

Buddhism is not interested in giving an answer about man's destiny or the origin of the world. It just shows us how illusory the world is so that one can cut oneself from it. Buddhism teaches the way of liberation through ethics and discipline. A universal God plays no role in this religion and in many Buddhist nations no word exists for the concept which was neither affirmed nor denied by Buddha himself but simply ignored.

Meditation should help master the body's impulses and bring about a spiritual concentration. Mediatation of course does not mean thinking about the solution of a problem but the emptiness of the mind from all thoughts so as to attain complete void leading to Nirvana.

Buddha never rejected the caste system but he accepted as monks from all strata of the population. Women were considered an hindrance because of the feelings they engendered and because they caused or forced rebirth. Buddha accepted women as nuns but they had much less importance than his monks.

He never considered himself a saviour nor a prophet. he saw himself as a man who had found by himself the explanation of life and how to manage avoiding reincarnation or metempsychosis.

Different forms of Buddhism have developped as it spread across countries. The strictest and more ancient is practiced today in Sri Lanka, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia and Burma: the Hinayana, while in China and Japan it developped into the Mahayana with its bodhhisattvas and avatars.
Bubble

That's pretty hard to refute, isn't it? Almost any of us could say that we may have been here before but have no memory of it so maybe it's true and maybe it isn't.

Robby

P.S. You were close, Jere. Just put that "c" in schizophrenia.

Might it not be so that many people have gone through the same introspection as Buddha with perhaps the same conclusion? The sole difference being that these other people just did not "teach" others but led their own lives quietly without having any followers?

Robby

"He is too sensitive to the suffering and killing involved in the biological process to suppose tht they have been consciously willed by a personal divinity. In this scene of order and confusion, of good and evil, he finds no principle of permanence, no center of everlasting reality, but only a whirl and flux of obstinate life, in which the one metaphysical ultimate is change."

As we examine both the life of the Ancients and our own life, would we agree that the only ultimate is "change" or is it a case of "the more things change, the more they remain the same?" How different is our life from those who lived in the time of Buddha?

"It is foolish, he says, to suppose that another can cause us happiness or misery. These are always the product of our own behavior and our own desires. He refuses to rest his moral code upon supernatural sanctions of any kind. He offers no heaven, no purgatory, and no hell."

I can identify so well with that. We create our own heaven or hell. Bubble

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Meditating and introspection worked for me and did bring an understanding about my life and how I was responsible for it, in spite of events that I could not control. So I do not doubt it would work for others as well.

I seem to remember that Jesus did call himself son of God ? Issn't that different?
Bubble

"Even the saint, even Budddha himself, will not, as a personality, survive death."

How about that folks? Does all this seem to have the ring of a class in Elementary Psychology? And what about that bit that "all matter is force?" Shades of Einstein?

Robby

"The cause and source of Nirvana is the extinction of selfish desire. Nirvana, in most early contexts, comes to mean the painless peace that rewards the moral annihilation of the self. In the body of the Master's teaching it is almost always synonymous with bliss, the quiet content of the soul that no longer worries about itself."

WHAT A GOAL!!

Robby

"Arguing from such pleasantries, Senart and others have concluded that the legend of Buddha has been formed on the basis of ancient sun myths. It is unimportant. Buddha means for us the ideas attributed to Buddha in the Buddhist literature; and this Buddha exists."

Toward the end of his long life his followers already began to deify him, despite his challenge to doubt him and to think for themselves.

Robby

"Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain. One has to keep this constantly in mind if one wishes to understand spiritual movements and their development. Feeling and longing are the motive force behind all human endeavor and human creation, in however exalted a guise the latter may present themselves."

Albert Einstein from the essay 'Cosmic Religious Feeling.' "



"To imply that religious practice should be above these concerns is to exercise an airy virtuecracy. Buddhism's virtue is that it has its feet on the ground."



George Beinhorn

Sea Bubble's #23 post, Robby's #24 post and Mal's #25 post all share the thoughts we have all had about our origins, and the purpose of our creation, and whether we create our own heaven or hell.

After 82 years of living on this planet the conclusions I have arrived at are encompassed in this poem:

Man discovers at some point in time that all human, animal and plant life is joined in consciousness, and that in reality he is related to, and evolving like all living things, a small part of creation, a part of the smallest atom adding to the sum total of the whole universe.

In trepidity and wonder, he sees his life as a tenuous spider web, snaring the never ending experiences creating the evolving self.

Alone, the vulnerable individual sees discretionary fate as universal fact, and feels helpless and vulnerable

Man struggles with the burden as he discovers the huge part he plays in the co-creation of the universe, and the tremendous responsibility this puts upon him.

Man determines his virtuousness or sinfullness in infinite uncertainty, while laying out the course for his future descendants.

This is a ridiculous, fallible choice, made by a still very weak, evolving creature, who is still in the process of being created

Our primary goal as humans should be to personify the task of co-creation, by joining our world wide forces and intelligence, triumphing in our existence, where ever moment of life appears as relative to our creation.

As recipients of the creator's free gift of life, brains and intelligence, we are accountable only by the enigma of surrendering to the creator's call to join with this entity, to be his instuments and collaborating co-creators.

The welfare of our own family, as well as the welfare of every nation, race and religion demands our involvement in the co-creation of our own existence and future evolvement and involvement in our nation and the world.

When we consider the havoc created by the terrorists on 9/11/2001 it is easy to see that a future war, environmental carelessness, or both simultaneously, could result in the destruction of the world and all it's inhabitants, using the nuclear weapons we now have available.

"Yielding to many soft entreaties, Buddha allowed women to enter the Order as nuns, but he never completely reconciled himself to this move."

Robby

Robby

Bubble

"For a year Alexander the Great campaigned among the northwestern states that had formed one of the Persian Empire's richest provinces, exacting supplied for his troops and gold for his treasury. Early in 126 B.C., he crossed the Indus, fought his way slowly through Taxila and Rawalpindi in the south and east, encourtered the army of King Porus, defeated 30,000 infantry, 4,000 cavalry, 300 chariots and 200 elephants, and slew 12,000 men.

"When Porus, having fought to the last, surrendered, Alexander, admiring his courage, stature and fine features, bade him say what treatment he wished to receive. 'Treat me, Alexander,' he answered, 'in a kingly way.' 'For my own sake,' said Alexander, 'thou shalt be so treated. For thine own sake do thou demand what is pleasing to thee.' But Porus said that everyhthing was included in what he had asked.

"Alexander was much pleased with this reply. He made Porus king of all conquered India as a Macedonion tributary, and found him thereafter a faithful and energetic ally. Alexander wished then to advance even to the eastern sea, but his soldiers protested. After much oratory and pouting he yielded to them, and led them -- through patriotically hostile tribes that made his wearied troops fight almost every foot of the way -- down the Hydaspes and up the coast through Gedrosia to Baluchistan.

"When he arrived at Susa, twenty months after turning back from his conquests, his army was but a miserable frgment of that which had crossed into India with him three years before."

Two separate and different Civilizations colliding here -- both under the leadership of men who, despite their warlike ways, appear to have semblances of what we, in our day, might call "being civilized." Your thoughts, please?

Robby

"Subject to decay are compound things. Strive with earnestness."

Note how close it is to Afghanistan which is in our news daily. Please note also how close it is to China which we will examine at a later date.

Robby

You say:--"When I first read Durant I skipped past India to read about China."

More and more I recognize the logic of the stream of history that Durant is taking us through. Sumeria helped me to understand Ancient Egypt. Babylonia helped me to understand Judea, etc. I feel confident that I will better understand China after examining India and will better understand Japan after going through China.

Robby

Robby

Interesting that someone could be labeled as a "lesser warrior but greater ruler." Also please note again the reference to Afghanistan. We might find it fun to note more carefully the Afghan cities mentioned in today's news to see if we find any familiar names.

Robby

Robby

Robby

Does anything ring a bell here? Comments about people who "know their place and are happy." Any opinions on the comparative happiness or unhappiness of slaves vs those who are low caste?

Robby

Robby

"When the fair-skinned Aryans invaded India, about two thousand years before Jesus Christ (pbuh), they defeated the dark-skinned indigenous people, Dravidians, who were the founder of the Indian Civilization. The Aryans subjugated them, learnt many things from them and built up another civilization which came to be known as the Ganges Valley or Hindu Civilization. To perpetuate the enslavement of the original inhabitants of India, the Aryans created the caste system, and thereby excluded them from their own society with the name of Sudra (which means slave).

"In this palace Chandragupta, having won the throne by violence, lived for twenty four years as in a gilded jail. Occasionally he appeared in public, clad in fine muslin emboidered with purple and gold. Otherwise he found his time crowded with the business of his growing realm. The actual direction of government was in the hands of the crafty vizier. Kautilya was a Brahman who knew the political value of religion, but took no moral guidance from it. He believed that every means was justifiable if used in the service of the state. He was unscrupulous and treacherous, but never to his King. Like the author of 'The Prince,' Kautilya saw fit to preserve in writing the formulas for warfare and diplomacy. Tradition ascribes to him the Arthathastra, the oldest book in extant Sanskrit literature."

It may be difficult for most of us to get our tongue or minds wrapped around those Indian names but we can see the luxury and intrigue that was happening in the same general period of time that included the lives of Plato and Socrates. This was an advanced Civilization.

Durant also allludes to the book "The Prince" which was written much later by Machiavelli in which stark rules of dealing with nations and people were outlined. He compares Kautilya with Machiavelli or vice versa if you wish.

We are talking about ancient India long before the birth of Christ. I am wondering if any participants (or lurkers) here are beginning to change their minds about the level of intelligence and ability existing in the Orient over two thousand years ago. Any comments about Machiavelli and Kautilya?

Robby

Robby

"The power of the King was theoretically unlimited, but in practice it was restricted by a Council which initiated legislation, regulated national finances and foreign affairs, and appointed all the more important officers of state. The government was organized into departments with well-defined duties and a carefully graded hierarchy of officials, managing respectively revenue, customs, frontiers, passpoarts, communication, excise, mines, agriculture, cattle, commerce, warehouses, navigation, forests, public games, prostitution, and the mint.".

In other words, they had an IRS, Immigration and Naturalization Service, State Department, Department of Public Affairs, Department of Agriculture, Interior Department, Department of the Army, Department of the Navy, Parks & Recreation Department, and Department of the Treasury. So what's new? Oh, yes. We don't have a Department of Prostitution. Maybe we're behind the times.

Robby

General Patton was a West Point graduate who loved publicity, a strict disciplinarian, a Prima Donna who was big on glory, glamour and the gung-ho spirit. He read the Bible, but believed he was a reincarnation of Hannibal

Although he was one of the American Army's foremost intellect in the study and conduct of modern armored warfare, and was superb in his oratory, he was a mixture of genious and madman, and had little tolerance for any signs of weakness in any soldier under his command.

The General wanted his troops to be always moving forward, and demanded that they fight as a team with discipline and aggressiveness, no matter the cost or the odds, but he had no knowledge of the mental damage that could result in an individual who had been exposed to shell fire over a long period of time, without any rest or sleep, constantly watching his buddies getting wounded, and dying.

The combat soldier had a more realistic view of the situation than the General and regarded modern warfare as a meatgrinder.

The soldiers knew that during the fighting General Patton had a warm bed to sleep in, while the troops were freezing in their foxholes under continual shell fire without rest or sleep, and they took a dim view of his go-get-em rhetoric and his thrusting high risk tactics.

They remembered the many casualties and huge losses of equipment that had occured at Kasserine Pass in Africa when these tactics had been unsucessfully used. After that battle the press called him "Old Blood and Guts". The soldiers muttered, "Yeah, his guts, our blood."

The frontline soldiers joked about about General Patton's penchant for publicity, and his habit of always roaring forward to his fighting units in a big command car with pennants flying, but returning to his HQ in a cub spotter plane, He never wanted his troops to see him going in the "wrong direction".

In Africa and Sicily in 1942 and 1943 the army had lost most of the regular career combat soldiers, who had served together not only in battle, but in the precedent amphibious, judo and ground hand to hand combat training in the U.S.

These men had bonded together like brothers, developed a solid state of comradeship, and protected each other's backs in combat, when conditions were "snafu".

This was a strong internal motivator in battle, and the men had learned to esteem and respect each other not only for their individual bravery, but for their combat abilities.

By August of 1943 a great number of the original troops had been put out of action, and the army needed many replacements to fill in the gaps in the ranks of the fighting units.

The replacements were a combination of young, inexperienced officers and men who had not been trained up to the combat standards of the original soldiers, and this took its toll in the battle zones during the following years of the war.

At the front, discipline was forgotten, orders were ignored, and sometimes not only the enlisted men, but also the officers broke down under the constant strain, tension and shell fire after seeing a comrade instantly lose his life, arms , legs or his head.

Some officers would become disoriented, freeze, and would become unable to command, and then depended on the N.C.O.'s to lead the platoons in the ensuing fracas. In WW2 this inability to function normally was called battle fatigue, but is now called post traumatic syndrome, a condition that is going to be very prevalent among the survivors of the recent destruction in N.Y.C. and the Pentagon

I think often not only of the veterans who died in WW2, but also those surviving veterans who still suffer from the long time effects of P.T.S.D.and the resulting effects on their families.

In spite of General George W.Patton's mixed record and his idiosyncrasies, the soldiers who served under him and who   participated in his victories in Africa, Sicily and Europe now excuse and forgive his past human fragilities, and are now proud to say, "I served under Gen. George W. Patton in WW2.

Pat Bruyere ( Former Army S/Sgt.)

"All things considered,' said Voltaire,'the life of a gondolier is preferable to that of a doge (ed: this is not a typo). But I believe the difference is so trifling that it is not worth the trouble of examining.'"

It's amazing how often those phrases have come up here since this forum began in November. There seems to be some underlying theme as the centuries and millennia move on.

Robby

"He ordered the prisoners freed, restored their lands to the Kalingas, and sent them a message of apology which had no precedents and has had few imitations."

I wonder what can cause someone to change so quickly and so radically. And I wonder if such an event could take place in our time.

Robby

"I have enforced the law against killing certain animals and many others, but the greatest progress of righteousness among men comes from the exhortation in favour of non-injury to life and abstention from killing living beings."

Asoka's Edicts

"He sent Buddhist missionaries to all part of India and Ceylon, even to Syria, Egypt and Greece where, perhaps they helped to prepare for the ethics of Christ. Shortly after his death missionaries left India to preach the gospel of Buddha in Tibet, China, Mongoiia and Japan."

For apparently the first time in known history a ruler who practiced what he preached. It also appears to be an early example of the beliefs of Central Asia passing along to Greece and the Far East. Comments, anyone?

"A columnist in the Saudi daily Al-Riyadh took it on herself this month to explain the rituals of Purim and Passover. The first holiday (which took place in February) commemorates the story of Esther’s saving the Jews of Persia from extermination. It’s a rollicking, hard-drinking, happy time for most celebrants. Some call it the Jewish Mardi Gras. Passover is more somber, as Jews commemorate the night that the Tenth Plague was sent by God to smite the firstborn children of Egypt but passed over the homes of Jews and allowed Moses to lead them to freedom. Each part of the ritual meal is full of symbolism.

"But that is not what the columnist, a medical doctor at King Faisal University Hospital, told her readers.

" 'For the Purim pastries, she said, 'the Jewish people must obtain human blood.' And for Passover, there are some special requirements: 'the blood of Christian and Muslim children under the age of 10 must be used.' And so, in almost clinical detail, Dr. Umayma Ahmad al-Jalahma recounted a hideous libel that dates back to the Crusades.

“ 'A needle-studded barrel is used,' she told us. 'The victim suffers dreadful torment—torment that affords the Jewish vampires great delight ...'

"You get the idea."

"In Ashoka's rock edicts, the great King and Emperor proclaimed: 'The King, beloved of Gods, honours every form of religious faith, but considers no gift or honour so much as the increase of the substance of religion; whereof this is the root, to reverence one's own faith and never to revile that of others. Whoever acts differently injures his own religion while he wrongs another's.' "

Is this one of the concepts we have learned about the Eastern approach? How different do you folks think that is from the Western approach?

Robby

"In the political sense Ashoka had failed. In another sense he had accomplished one of the greatest tasks in history. Within two hundred years after his death, Buddhism had spread throughout India, and was entering upon the bloodless conquest of Asia. To this day, from Kandy in Ceylon to Kamakura in Japan, the placid face of Gautama bids men be gentle to one another and love peace."

Is there a message here?

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Here, before our very eyes (so to speak), we are seeng humans creating a god and then creating the creed which they say that this god espouses.

Robby

Robby

Land is the prime reason for wars, religion is used to justified the "rightness" of the action. And usually the bigger the nation gets an appetite for the more feeble: see big China against Tibet. Bubble

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Today I went out of this room for the first time in many weeks. My daughter took me over to Duke University and showed me the building on the campus where she works at the Fuqua School of Business. On the way we drove through country onto the highway and saw dogwoods, redbud trees, azaleas, daffodils and pansies in bloom. The gardens at Duke were lovely with tulips blooming and other flowers of glorious color.

After we left Fuqua, we drove to the Perkins Library on the Duke campus where my daughter's partner now works. It is near the Duke Chapel. For those of you who don't know, the buildings at Duke University are constructed of gray stone and gray brick in a Gothic style. The flowers in the gardens softened the somewhat austere attitude of the buildings today.

On leaving the campus, we drove back to Chapel Hill and south to the supermarket in the plaza where I like to shop. For the first time, instead of a wheelchair, I used one of those electric scooter things that to my surprise has a lot of speed and power. Aside from being nervous because I thought I'd run over Easter and Psssover shoppers, I had fun driving the thing around. Actually, I felt rather rejuvenated, which, I guess is what Spring is supposed to do.

Tomorrow is Easter, a time of renewal and a holy day for all Christians. Jesus Christ was resurrected, Glory Hallelujah. I can remember singing that when i was a child dressed up in my new Easter clothes in the choir loft with a black choir robe over them.

We have been reading about Ancient History. Tonight I had the idea that looking up origins of Easter might be a good idea. This is what I found.

"Many, perhaps most, Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox. Cybele, the Phrygian fertility goddess, had a fictional consort who was believed to have been born via a virgin birth. He was Attis, who was believed to have died and been resurrected each year during the period MAR-22 to MAR-25. About 200 B.C. mystery cults began to appear in Rome just as they had earlier in Greece. Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill ...Associated with the Cybele cult was that of her lover, Attis ([the older Tammuz, Osiris, Dionysus, or Orpheus under a new name). He was a god of ever-reviving vegetation. Born of a virgin, he died and was reborn annually. The festival began as a day of blood on Black Friday and culminated after three days in a day of rejoicing over the resurrection.



"Wherever Christian worship of Jesus and Pagan worship of Attis were active in the same geographical area in ancient times, Christians used to celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus on the same date; and pagans and Christians used to quarrel bitterly about which of their gods was the true prototype and which the imitation.



"Many religious historians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simply grafted onto stories of Jesus' life in order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans. Ancient Christians had an alternate explanation; they claimed that Satan had created counterfeit deities in advance of the coming of Christ in order to confuse humanity. Modern-day Christians generally regard the Attis legend as being a Pagan myth of little value. They regard Jesus' death and resurrection account as being true, and unrelated to the earlier tradition."

From the Religious Tolerance site

Happy Easter to all who celebrate this day.

Mal

Thanks Justin and everyone for prayers and friendly thoughts. Thanks for the article, Robbie, last night. The NY Times is really fast in giving the news. Bubble

Robby

Robby

Robby

beginning with the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917, which was a letter sent by British foreign secretary Lord Balfour to a British Zionist leader and starts this way " His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people --- ".

After WW I (which ended in 1918), the terms of the Balfour Declaration were included in the mandate for Palestine approved by the League of Nations in 1922; the mandate entrusted Great Britain with administering Palestine. The British mandatory period lasted until 1948. During that time large-scale settlement and agricultural development began and hundreds of agricultural collectives (kibbutzim) and cooperatives were established. The Jewish community or Yishuv increased tenfold during this era.

The British attempted to maintain a delicate balance between the interests and demands of the Yishuv and those of the country's predominantly Arab population. But as Jewish immigration to Palestine increased, Arab opposition to British rule and to Zionism grew; protests erupted in violence.

In 1947 Britain decided to leave Palestine and called on the UN for recommendations. In response, the UN convened its first special session on Nov. 29, 1947 and adopted a plan calling for the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem as an international zone under UN jurisdiction; the Jewish and Arab states would be joined in an economic union. The partition resolution was endorsed by a vote of 33 to 13, supported by the U.S. and the Soviet Union. The British abstained.

In light of the horrible escalating carnage in the ME I thought it important and necessary to take an look at how it all began, how well-intentioned the parties were at the time, and what happened since. The source of my information is my treasured encoclypedia, in case you wondered.

The term "Zionism" was coined in 1893 by Nathan Birnbaum.

Robby

"The Brahmans, who had been in disfavor with the Mauryan dynasty since Ashoka, were growing again in wealth and power under the tolerant rule of the Gupta kings. They had revived the religious and literary traditions of pre-Buddhist days, and were developng Sanskrit into the Esperanto of scholars throughout India. It was under their influence and the patronage of the court that the great Hindu epics, the Mahahharata and the Ramayana were written down into their present form.

"This heyday of native culture was interrupted by a wave of those Hun invasions which now overran both Asia and Europe, ruining for a time India as well as Rome. While Attila was raiding Europe, Toramana was capturing Malwa, and the terrible Mihiragula was hurling the Gupta rulers from their throne. For a century India relapsed into bondage and chaos."

Maybe I don't remember my high school history well. I do remember the Huns but didn't realize that they were ruling India for a hundred years.

Robby

First of all, I think it is a good idea to follow the guidelines that were set up to keep this discussion from reverting to a verbal fistfight about politics and politicians, don't you? General statements about countries are probably better here than pointing out individual politicians and leaders if we are to keep the dignified, respectful environment which this discussion has been and is.

America and Canada are isolated from other countries, except those in South America, by two mighty oceans, which until very recent times were not easy to cross either by expensive air flights or expensive voyages on ships. For whatever reason, we have confined ourselves and our thinking pretty much to this localized hemisphere.

We cannot learn overnight about people whose thinking is very different from ours, but we can try. To me that is exactly what we've been doing in this discussion about Our Oriental Heritage.

Today the two "Angel Soul Sisters" who come in and spend an hour and a half cleaning for me were here. I had the opportunity to explain that the killing of innocent people in Israel is not condoned in the Qur'an. I spent a little time explaining parts of the Qur'an that I understand; told my two friends that what they hear on TV and the radio is based on interpretation of the Qur'an by extremists. Every time my friends come in, they ask me about other friends I have in Israel. I now publish four Israeli writers in my electronic magazines. I also publish writers who live in Canada, England, Chile, Australia, Mexico, New Zealand and Sweden. I would not refuse to publish the works of a Palestinian writer.

Perhaps if we shared with even just one person some of the things we've learned from reading and discussing Our Oriental Heritage, it would help expand some people's minds and open their points-of-view to things they hadn't considered before. We have to start somewhere.

Mal

This is the type of question that should be posed in one of the political forums. We are a historical discussion group and refrain from comments about current political figures.

Robby

Robby

If there are any challenges, they would be more apropos in the Religion/Spirituality forums.

Robby

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't remember any such charity in the previous Civilizations we have visited.

Robby

Robby

Robby

"The Guptas tended to allow kings to remain as vassal kings; unlike the Mauryas, they did not consolidate every kingdom into a single administrative unit. This would be the model for later Mughal rule and British rule built off of the Mughal paradigm.



"The Guptas fell prey, however, to a wave of migrations by the Huns, a people who originally lived north of China. The Hun migrations would push all the way to the doors of Rome. Beginning in the 400's, the Huns began to put pressure on the Guptas. In 480 they conquered the Guptas and took over northern India. Western India was overrun by 500, and the last of the Gupta kings, presiding over a vastly diminished kingdom, perished in 550. A strange thing happened to the Huns in India as well as in Europe. Over the decades they gradually assimilated into the indigenous population and their state weakened."

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

"The origin of Sati is not definitely known, but generally it has been ascribed to the self-immolation of God Shiva's wife, Sati. She, on finding that her husband was not invited by her father, Daksha, for some Yaga, to which he had invited all the other deities, created a fire out of her innate powers and immolated herself in front of the guests."

"The fact is, though, that the United states is an older country than Germany, Italy, and a dozen other European states, not to speak of Latin America, Africa, and most of Asia. It is the oldest extant democracy on earth, the oldest republic, and the oldest federal system-as well as the largest, most complex, most open and most tested (something that one might not readily have grasped from the facile attempt to ridicule and patronise America during the last disputed presidential election). Consider that during the time that this supposedly young country has existed, France, that epitome of European sophistication, has gone through five different republics, two emperors, two monarchies, and a puppet regime. How sophisticated can you get."

May I ask how this fits into the general parameters of this discussion ?

The author is president of the Middle East Institute, was assistant secretary of state for Near Estern affairs from 1999 to 2001. He also served as US ambassador to Israel, Egypt, and the United Arab Emirates.

"We all know America, don’t we? While we may confess to ignorance about Japan or Russia, or even France—all those impossibly difficult languages apart from anything else—we are confident that we know America. It is, as they say, everyone’s second country."

Eloise:--I was taught that the expression was:--"Quand le chat dort, les souris dansent."

"Religion was brutal, and manners refined."

That last sentence is intriguing. I wonder what Durant meant by that.

Robby

Robby

  You have given much encouragement to many people, some illiterate, both writers and non-writers, in your many roles as a writer, a mother, a friend, an editor and an overcomer of many handicaps.

Along with many other children, I suffered from spinal meningitis in 1931, but was able to over come this handicap because I had a strong determined mother much like yourself.

During the world depression my family household consisted of a mother and father and 14 children, living in a house near the railroad yards, coming into continual contact with the hoboes and vagrants who rode the rails, sometimes tasting their "mulligan stew" down by the tracks, or having them sitting at our table with us, sharing food and stories, without benefit of the government grants, foodstamps, and social benefits so easily available today.

In spite of the fact that there was such a lack of jobs available in 1936 when I graduated from High School, I was able to get a job at the Grand Union Store for the marvelous salary of $7.00 for a 70 hour week, and was very grateful to the friend who got me the job.

    Money was very limited, and radio was just beginning to be received from transmitters broadcasting across the St. Lawrence River from Canada.

  My grandfather had purchased a radio, so we children found many excuses to visit grandpa, in order to listen to this marvelous invention.

  It was called an Atwater-Kent , and consisted of a long black box filled with tubes. It could be used either with head-phones or a huge horn speaker which sat on the top.

During WW2 my 3rd Infantry Division was trapped on the Anzio Beachead for 5 months.

  As a diversion from the continual artillery and mortar shell fire we were receiving, I was able to build a crystal radio receiver. I used 2 flashlight batteries, a razor blade, headphones and a piece of copper wire.

  With this equipment we could hear Axis Sally and the enemy propaganda, music and broadcasts from Rome.

  After WW2 I was able to build my first tv set from a kit, and I was amazed to realize how far technology had advanced during the four years I was away at war.

I look back on the years since my high school days with amazement. At that time there were no birth control pills, and no population explosion.

This was before TV, pencilin, polio shots, antibiotics and frisbees, before frozen foods,nylon, dacron xerox radar, fluorescent lights, credit cards and ballpoint pens.

Timesharing meant togetherness, not computers. Hardware meant hardware. Software was not even a word. Instant Coffee, McDonalds and Burger King were unheard of, and fast food was what we ate for Lent.

  This was before FM radio, tape recorders, electric typewriters, word processors, electronic music, digital clocks and disco dancing. This was before the 40 hour week and the minimum wage.

  We got married and then we lived together. Grass was mowed, coke was something you drank, and pot was something you cooked in.

In the mid-thirties there were no vending machines, jet planes, helicopters and interstate highways. "Made in Japan" meant junk, and "making out" referred to how you did on an exam.

In our time there were 5 and 10 cent stores where you could buy things for 5 or 10 cents. For just one dime you could ride the street car all day. For a nickle you could make a phone call, or buy a coke or ice cream cone or buy enough stamps to mail one letter and two post cards.

  During the depression you could buy a new Chevy coupe or a Ford Sedan for $659.00 but who could afford it? Nobody. Very sad, because gas was 11 cents a gallon.

  If anyone had asked us to explain CIA, NATO, UFO, NFL, JFK. or ERA we would have said, " that must be alphabet soup."

  In the years that have transpired since I graduated, we have come from the horse and buggy age with the outside privies, kerosene lanterns, and all of the limitations, to the rocket age, where we now explore the outer limits of the universe.

  This evolution is the result of man's brainpower, Godpower, and faith in God's Grace, combined with man's inventiveness and ingenuity.

With God's help, nothing is impossible for His Creations .

  Pat Bruyere

Since I have not been able to follow the discourse on India on a regular basis, I have a question concerning the issues in green which we will be discussing :

I will first remind you that this is not a Religion forum. There are numerous places in the Religion folder in SeniorNet for opinions to be discussed and argued.

Religion does not not start wars. There are some people in the world who twist religion in such ways to justify wars, but religion does not start wars.

Robert Heinlein was an agnostic and probably an atheist. A general statement about monotheism like the one SWN attributed to Heinlein cannot be accepted as fact without research of religions in relation to history and long discussion, which I believe is not the kind of thing we do here in this discussion of Our Oriental Heritage. Let's get back to India and the topic at hand.

Thank you, Traude, for the information you posted. Yes, we were referring to Mahmud of Ghazni.

Mal

"Before every important engagement Mahmud knelt in prayer, and asked the blessing of God upon his arms. He reigned for a third of a century; and when he died, full of years and honors, Moslem historians ranked him as the greatest monarch of his time, and one of the greatest sovereigns of any age.

"Seeing the canonization that success had brought to this magnificent thief, other Moslem rulers profited by his example, though none succeeded in bettering his instruction. In 1186 the Ghuri, a Turkish tribe of Afghanistan, invaded India, captured the city of Delhi, destroyed its temples, confiscated its wealth and settled down in its palaces to establish the Sulfanate of Delhi -- an alien despotism fastened upon northern India for three centuries, and checked only by assassination and revolts."

Welcome, Tejas. We'd be most happy if you join this discussion of the first volume of Will Durant's Story of Civilization. The discussion leader, Robby Iadeluca, is away, but he will be back late Sunday or early Monday to welcome you here. Check the sentences in GREEN at the top of the page to see what we're talking about at this moment.

Mal

I've had an email about my Post #254 in which I discouraged a general discussion about Religion here. I was not trying to censor anyone, but it has happened in the past when Robby was away that certain people who are not regular participants in the discussion come in and start proselytizing about their interpretation of Christianity, thus creating something of a less than pleasant atmosphere. I was trying to avoid that sort of thing from happening by leading us back to the topics, which happen to be listed in the quotes in GREEN at the top of the page. I am not the Discussion Leader here, no doubt had no business saying what I did, but there was a reason, which I've stated above.

Okay, I'm going backstage now. I have enough problems already dealing with writers I publish in my electronic magazines who sometimes don't like the way their work is presented, or want to rewrite their entire pieces the minute they see them on their monitor screens, thus creating a whole lot of work for me, and trying to keep the Writers Exchange WREX writers writing and upbeat, ha ha!

Mal

Justin, I told myself I'd stay out of this discussion so I wouldn't get myself in trouble. Besides, I'm spending too much time discussing books somebody else wrote and not enough time writing my own. What you say seems to lure me in, though, so I'll post today.

I told you I understand your point of view. I could dispute some of the things you say, but I won't.

I am an agnostic for some of the very reasons you cite; not quite an atheist because I believe in a Higher Power which is in me. That's partly because of the Unitarian background I had as a kid, but more because I am a rationalist. My personal philosophy sustains me, and it has nothing to do with religion. You don't have to explain religion to me or convince me, in other words.

However, having discussed this issue with economists, historians and people far more knowledgeable than I am, I still maintain that the majority of wars are not started because of religion.

Yesterday I spent almost $100.00 I can't afford for medicine which, hopefully, will stop this fierce arthritis pain I've had that makes typing and everything else I do so difficult right now. Perhaps we might investigate how people who didn't have much money managed to live in India. The streets apparently were lined with gold for conquerors. What were they lined with for poor people, I wonder?

Thank you, Fifi, for your most enlightening post. I enjoyed reading about the diamonds and the travels of one from India to Maryland and another to Her Majesty's collection very much.

Mal

Let's move on. The first sultan, Kutb-d Din Aibak is described as "fanatical, ferocious and merciless. "...fifty thousand men came under the collar of slavery." The sultan Balban "punished rebels and brigands by casting them under the feet of elephants or removing their skins, stuffing them with straw, and hanging them from the gates of Delhi." Sultan Alau-d-din "had all the males -- from fifteen to thirty thousand of them -- slaughtered in one day." Sultan Ahmad Shah "feasted for three days whenever the number of defenseless Hindus slain in his territories in one day reached twenty thousand."

Durant says:

"These rulers were often men of ability, and their followers were gifted with fierce courage and industry; only so can we understand how they could have maintained their rule among a hostile people so overwhelmingly outnumbering them. All of them were armed with a religion militaristic in operation, but far superior in its stoical monotheism to any of the popular cults of India; they concealed its attractiveness by making the public exercise of the Hindu religions illegal, and thereby driving them more deeply into the Hindu soul."

"The usual policy of the Sultans was clearly sketched by Alau-d-din, who required his advisers to draw up 'rules and regulations for grinding down the Hindus, and for depriving them of that wealth and property which fosters disaffection and rebellion.' "

Does this bear any resemblance to conquests we've seen in the 20th and early 21st century?

He suffered from a surplus of energy in body and mind. He fought, hunted and traveled insatiably. It was nothing for him, single-handed, to kill five enemies in five minutes. In two days he rode one hundred and sixty miles on horseback, and swam the Ganges twice in the bargain. In his last years he remarked that not since the age of eleven had he kept the fast of Ramadan twice in the same place."

We have all heard the term "Moguls" but perhaps we ought to pause and examine the personality of the person who founded this great dynasty -- "surplus of energy" -- "in body AND mind" -- "ability without brutality".

I am wondering as I look back at the conquerors in the various Civilizations we have examined, if we have not concentrated so much on their physical prowess that we have overlooked the possibility that it was their mental ability which enabled them to take over other lands. Any thoughts on this?

Robby

1 - At age 15 he besieged and captured Samarkand.
2 - Lost it again when he could not pay his troops.
3 - Nearly died of illness.
4 - Hid for a time in the mountains.
5 - Recaptured the city with two hundred and forty men.
6 - Lost it again through treachery.
7 - Hid for two years in obscure poverty.
8 - Thought of retiring to a peasant life in China.
9 - Organized another force.
10 - By the contagion of his own bravery, took Kabul in his 22nd year.
11 - Overwhelmed the one hundred thousand soldiers of Sultan Ibrahim at Panipat with twelve thousand men and some fine horses.
12 - Killed prisoners by the thousands.
13 - Captured Delhi.
14 - Established there the greatest and most beneficent of the foreign dynasties that have ruled India.
15 - Enjoyed four years of peace.
16 - Composed excellent poems and memoirs.
17 - Died at the age of 47 after living, in action and experience, a century."

Anyone here want to give a definition of Leadership? (Your own, not the dictionary's)

Robby

Robby

Robby

Why wasn't that necessary for Ancient leaders?

Robby

General Patton was a West Point graduate who loved publicity, a strict disciplinarian, a Prima Donna who was big on glory, glamour and the gung-ho spirit. He read the Bible, but believed he was a reincarnation of Hannibal

Although he was one of the American Army's foremost intellect in the study and conduct of modern armored warfare, and was superb in his oratory, he was a mixture of genious and madman, and had little tolerance for any signs of weakness in any soldier under his command.

The General wanted his troops to be always moving forward, and demanded that they fight as a team with discipline and aggressiveness, no matter the cost or the odds, but he had no knowledge of the mental damage that could result in an individual who had been exposed to shell fire over a long period of time, without any rest or sleep, constantly watching his buddies getting wounded, and dying.

The combat soldier had a more realistic view of the situation than the General and regarded modern warfare as a meatgrinder.

  The soldiers knew that during the fighting General Patton had a warm bed to sleep in, while the troops were freezing in their foxholes under continual shell fire without rest or sleep, and they took a dim view of his go-get-em rhetoric and his thrusting high risk tactics.

They remembered the many casualties and huge losses of equipment that had occured at Kasserine Pass in Africa when these tactics had been unsucessfully used. After that battle the press called him "Old Blood and Guts". The soldiers muttered, "Yeah, his guts, our blood."

  The frontline soldiers joked about about General Patton's penchant for publicity, and his habit of always roaring forward to his fighting units in a big command car with pennants flying, but returning to his HQ in a cub spotter plane, He never wanted his troops to see him going in the "wrong direction".

In Africa and Sicily in 1942 and 1943 the army had lost most of the regular career combat soldiers, who had served together not only in battle, but in the precedent amphibious, judo and ground hand to hand combat training in the U.S.

These men had bonded together like brothers, developed a solid state of comradeship, and protected each other's backs in combat, when conditions were "snafu".

This was a strong internal motivator in battle, and the men had learned to esteem and respect each other not only for their individual bravery, but for their combat abilities.

By August of 1943 a great number of the original troops had been put out of action, and the army needed many replacements to fill in the gaps in the ranks of the fighting units.

The replacements were a combination of young, inexperienced officers and men who had not been trained up to the combat standards of the original soldiers, and this took its toll in the battle zones during the following years of the war.

At the front, discipline was forgotten, orders were ignored, and sometimes not only the enlisted men, but also the officers broke down under the constant strain, tension and shell fire after seeing a comrade instantly lose his life, arms , legs or his head.

  Some officers would become disoriented, freeze, and would become unable to command, and then depended on the N.C.O.'s to lead the platoons in the ensuing fracas. In WW2 this inability to function normally was called battle fatigue, but is now called post traumatic syndrome, a condition that is going to be very prevalent among the survivors of the recent destruction in N.Y.C. and the Pentagon

I think often not only of the veterans who died in WW2, but also those surviving veterans who still suffer from the long time effects of P.T.S.D.and the resulting effects on their families.

But wasn't it that very arrogant "me and the rest of the world" attitude which enabled most, if not all, of the Ancient leaders to strengthen their own nation? Alexander, for example?

"While Catholics were murdering Protestants in France, and Protestants, under Elizabeth, were murdering Catholics in England, and the Inquisition was killing and robbing Jews in Spain, and Bruno was being burned at the stake in Italy -- Akbar invited the representatives of all the religions in his empire to a conference -- pledged them to peace -- issued edicts of toleration for every cult and creed and, as evidence of his own neutrality, married wives from the Brahman, Buddhist, and Mohammedan faiths."

PLEASE DO NOT SCROLL PAST THIS POSTING!! An amazing man!! You might be interested in comparing his attitude to some of the behaviors in various parts of the world today.

Robby

Robby

In other words, if I understand you, Jere, there is no such thing as a government remaining static. It is either on its way up or down. Correct?

Robby

"In the center of the Peace Court at Fathpur-Sikri a Temple of United Religion was built (and still stands there) as a symbol of the Emperor's fond hope that now all the inhabitants of India might be brothers, worshiping the same God."

What are your thoughts regarding this "integrated" religion? Any possibility of such a thing happening today? If so, how could it be done? If not, why not?

Robby

Are we reading only half a history, or one-third of a history, or one percent of the Oriental history? And these leaders of whom we have been reading -- were they leaders for good or leaders for evil? What of the "losers?" Were they all slaughtered and just disappeared off the face of the earth or did some of them survive and start their own Civilization somewhere else? Gets us to thinking, SWN.

And, by the way, how about posting those half a dozen messages you haven't sent?

Robby

For a period of about two weeks, I was kicked out of my Scout troop. I was always acting up (so what's new?) and the Scoutmaster said I was a good leader but was leading my patrol in the wrong direction. Amazingly, years later I became a career Scout Executive.

How about Akbar who started off being ruthless and later became a kindly philosopher? SWN would like us to figure out if we are looking at only those Ancients who stood out as leaders, whether good or bad. What about the peasants, the peons, the serfs, the untouchables?

Robby

Robby

Robby

Is this an example where "East and West can meet?" What do you folks think?

Robby

Some will never like to admit their oriental parentage, but that is because the word oriental has so pejorative a connotation. When the Jews from North Africa came here em masse, they were called Orientals, primitives, uncouth, because most were artisans and had no higher education than part of primary school but they manners were exquisite, their hospitality without bound. They had a knowledge of life, of art, a logic of thousands years to talk about and quote.

I think that the Israelis act as Westeners and enjoy the Westeners'culture, but at heart they will always be Orientals. It is also the only way to survive here, because it is the edge needed to interact with our neighbors.

Think if the American tourist (just an example, don't take that personally!) spending some time in an arab souk, in an open market let say in Cairo. He will find some item very desirable that he want to buy. When he hear the price, he will jump in anger: you are thieves, want to take advantage of unaware US tourists because they have dollars. And he will walk away followed by the scorn of those merchants. If the price is not exorbitant, he may pay it and depart happy of his purchase, and still will be followed by the scorn of those merchants. Why? because the accepted way to buy is in the bargaining back and forth and in the cleverness of arguments to do so. It is also in the knowing when the last paying price has been reached. That is a sign of real education. Of course, one must also learn that this is not a behaviour to use in Europe or North America. Some of our Sabras find this hard to remember. Bubble

Westerners in behavior and Oriental "at heart." What a combination and so hard for some of us to understand. And perhaps some of us living in the Western civilization are more oriental within ourselves than we realize.

Robby

"A great part of India was jungle, the jealously guarded home of lions, tigers, elephants, serpents, and other individualists with a Rousseauian contempt for civilization. The biological struggle to free the land from these enemies had continued underneath all the surface dramas of economic and political strife.

"Akbar shot tigers near Mathura, and captured wild elephants in many places where none can be found today. In Vedic times the lion might be met with anywhere in northwest or central India. Now it is almost extinct throughout the peninsula. The serpent and the insect, however, still carry on the war. In 1916 some two thousand Hindus were killed by wild animals (875 by marauding tigers) but twenty thousand Hindus met death from the fangs of snakes.

"Gradually, as the soil was redeemed from the beast, it was turned to the cultivation of rice, pulse, millet, vegetables and fruits. Through the greater part of Indian history, the majority of the population have lived abstemiously on these natural foods, reserving flesh, fish and fowl for the Outcastes and the rich.

"To render their diet more exciting, and perhaps to assist Aphrodite, the Hindus have grown and consumed an unusual abundance of curry, ginger, cloves, cinnamon and other spices. Europeans valued these spices so highly that they stumbled upon a hemisphere in search for them. Who knows but that America was discovered for the sake of love?"

Is this the India that you learned about?

Robby

Robby

Robby

"The name muslin was originally applied to fine cotton weaves made in Mosul from Indian models. Calico was so called because it came from Calicut, on the southwestern shores of India. The shawls of Kashmir and the rugs of India bear witness even today to the excellence of Indian weaving in texture and design."

Unless I have my history mixed up, in these centuries before Christ, Europe was populated primarily by roaming barbaric tribes.

Robby

Robby

Robby

It was a real experience. I was not much interested in talking politics or the world situation, but the difference in how we reacted to the same lectures, how so different aspects of a subject attracted each of us, this was fascinating. We did that according to our background and our education I suppose. They cared about the human side and the future, I was more introspective and worried about the present. Their innate gentleness in thoughts, gestures, actions was always to be admired. And still, we see in S.of C. these people have an history of ruthlessness and brutality, of savage behaviour to other humans. Bubble

Your #370 post brought back memories of my cultural experiences in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia in WW2.

The average american soldier's pay was $21.00 a month in 1942, when they first arrived in Africa, so they quickly adopted the oriental culture of bargaining when dealing with the Arab merchants in the open market.

This bargaining between the Arabs and Americans became known between both participants as an attempt to "jew' the price down, as the Jewish people were known as good bargainers.

Pat

Robby

Robby

Robby

Over this past five months, as we examined Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, etc. -- examining each Civilization separately -- the tendency might have been to think that each Civilization existed alone without the other ones being present. But Durant reminds us that these various cultures existed almost side-by-side, and that the trade among them was unbelievably busy. And it appears that India furnished goods of one sort or another that the other Civilizations considered almost indispensable.

"Indian medical tradition also goes back to Vedic times when the Ashwinikumars, who were practitioners of medicine were given a divine status. We also have a God of Medicine called Dhanvantari. In historic times the earliest recorded treatise on medicine in India viz., the Shushruta Samahita is dated around the 8th century B.C. Plastic surgery dentistry operation of cataracts, were pioneering advances, in the field of medicine."

Ancient India's Contribution to Medical Science

"India was the motherland of our race and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages. India was the mother of our philosophy, of much of our mathematics, of the ideals embodied in Christianity... of self-government and democracy. In many ways, Mother India is the mother of us all."



Will Durant
American Historian 1885-1981

Ancient India's Contribution to Mathematics

Robby

Based on what we have learned about the Orient so far, is this what you folks see as the major problem between "them" and us?"

Robby

Your reactions, please?

Robby

In looking back at the history of primitive man, Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, Persia and comparing it to what is happening in Israel and Palestine to-day we can see that civilization has not changed much in the intervening centuries.

The time and necessity has come for the fomenting of friendly communications between the Israelis and the Palestinians, free of intolerance and greed, to resolve all their major differences. and to prevent a third world war.

The suffering of many weaker people, races and nations throughout history was caused by their quiet acquiescence and acceptance of the hardships inflicted by other stronger nations with military might, without any interference from other nations.

The holocaust and the silent acceptance of this hostile subversion of the Jews by nearly every other nation almost resulted in the total extinction of the Jews in this century, and caused them to have the mentality they have to-day of primarily protecting their own people, and disregarding the suffering they are causing among their opponents, and the hostility of other nations.

The Palestinians want to live peacefully as equals alongside Israel on the territories formerly theirs and now occupied by Israel, since 1967.

The Israelis want to live peacefully in their own small state without the dangers and loss of lifes caused by terrorist suicide bombers.

The "Survival of the Fittest" mentality, quoted by Darwin as one of the paths of animal and human evolution, has always occurred throughout history, caused much human suffering and has again come into play in this century.

This disparity between nations caused WW2, the war in Vietnam, Korea, the Gulf War, and the present war in Afghanistan,   and is causing the escalating situation between Palestine and Israel to-day.

Many nations, some friendly, and some not so friendly, now have dangerous nuclear and biological capability, and could cause much harm to the earth and all it's inhabitants if another world war broke out.

The time has come for our own country's leaders to intervene in this situation to alleviate the loss of human lifes.even though we Americans still have so much pent up anger because of the un-justified loss of so many American lifes on 9/11/01.

American Secretary of State Colin Powell could achieve peace by acting as a mediator between a willing Prime Minister Sharon and a willing Yasser Arafat, who has been the chief supplier and supporter of the bombings.

This would require the cooperation of the adversaries for the stopping of Arab suicide bombings and the withdrawal of the Israelies from the west bank.

We Americans must maintain a very strong vigilance at the present time to avoid a nuclear or biological confrontation that could wipe out the planet and every human being on it.

Pat

Robby

Trevor suggests that a different attempt be made toward acting in a civilized way and that "such an attempt would require great discipline be exercised on ourselves, and would require that reason would rule over emotion."

In working with my patients I often point out that emotion seems to be the basic language upon which cognition is built. If this be so (and maybe you disagree), then what are the odds that Civilization will win over Barbarism?

Robby

Robby

"In India under the Moslems, law was merely the will of the emperor or sultan. Under the Hindu kings it was a confused misture of royal commands, village traditions and caste rules. Judgment was given by the head of the family, the head of the village, the headmen of the caste, the court of the guild, the governor of the province, the minister of the king, or the king himself.

Litigation was brief. Judgment swift. Torture was used under every dynasty until abolished by Firoz Shah. Death was the penalty for any of a great variety of crimes, such as housebreaking -- damage to royal property -- or theft on a scale that would now make a man a very pillar of society.

"Punishments were cruel, and included amputation of hands, feet, nose or ears -- tearing out of eyes -- pouring molten lead into the throat -- crushing the bones of hands and feet with a mallet -- burning the body with fire -- driving nails into the hands, feet or bosom -- cutting the sinews -- sawing men asunder -- quartering them -- impaling them -- roasting them alive -- letting them be trampled to death by elephants -- or giving them to wild and hungry dogs."

An expression in America is "justice delayed is justice denied." In Ancient India justice was swift. We beg here for brief litigation and that was what existed in Ancient India. How does that expression go? - "Be careful what you pray for. You might get it?"

Robby

Mal says:--"One of our biggest weaknesses in the West is the fact that we do not try to understand the thinking and emotional processes of those in the East."

Putting these two together, does the possibility exist that the West represents "reason," that the East represents "emotion," and that ultimately emotion will prevail?

Robby

Robby

Which, then, has priority? The dignity of the individual or the stability of the culture?

Robby

Robby

"Brahmanism thus became an exclusive cult, carefully hedgd around against all vulgar participation. According to the Code of Manu, a Brahman was by divine right at the head of all creatures."

As I pointed out in an earlier posting, for the first time here in Story of Civilization we are talking about an Ancient Civilization which still exists. Therefore, we will often find ourselves comparing current-day India with Ancient India and coming to certain conclusions in our mind. This is the place to give vent to our feelings.

Do the rest of you participants here feel that Durant is "biased" or do you see him as being as impartial as a historian can be?

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

"Much can be said in defense of the caste system which, after monogamy, must be the most abused of all social institutions. The caste system had the eugenic value of keeping the presumably finer strains from dilution and disappearance through indiscriminate mixture. It established certain habits of diet and cleanliness as a rule of honor which all might observe and emulate. It gave order to the chaotic inequalities and differences of men, and spared the soul the modern fever of climbing and gain. It gave order to every life by prescribing for each man a 'dharma', or code of conduct for his caste.

"It gave order to every trade and profession -- elevated every occupation into a vocation not lightly to be changed -- and, by making every industry a caste, provided its members with a means of united action against exploitation and tyranny.

"It offered an escape from the plutocracy or the military dictatorship which are apparently the only alternatives to aristocracy. It gave to a country shorn of political stability by a hundred invasions and revolutions a social, moral and cultural order and continuity rivaled only by the Chinese.

"Amid a hundred anarchic changes in the state, the Brahmans maintained, through the system of caste, a stable society, and preserved, augmented and transmitted civilization. The nation bore with them patiently, even proudly, because everyone knew that in the end, they were the one indispensable government of India.

If we speak harshly against the Caste system, does it mean that we are perhaps looking at it with 21st Century eyes and not seeing the advantages it had over 2000 years ago? Are we missing something here? Is the caste system a meritocracy? Is a meritocracy bad? Is Durant correct in saying that while this "aristocracy" might not be the best thing, it was far better than the other options, i.e. the military or a plutocracy? Do you agree with Durant that the Brahmans were the "one indispensable government" of India? After all, India is the only Ancient Civilization we have examined which still exists. Your thoughts, please?

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Justin:

I have sent you a URL by email for two pages of paintings by Edward Hopper. Among them is Street Scene, Gloucester, which I put on Eloise's story web page when I published it in Sonata magazine for the arts.

Mal

Is it possible that in many other nations of today's world besides India, in varying forms of government, that people remain what they are born into despite their efforts to get out of it? That other forces besides "governmental" tradition keep them there? Or are we saying that if one wants to badly enough, one can always rise to another "class"?

Robby

"When the caste system dies, the moral life of India will undergo a long transition of disorder. Morality was 'dharma' -- the rule of life for each man as determined by his caste. To be a Hindu meant not so much to accept a creed as to take a place in the caste system -- to accept the 'dharma' or duties attaching to that place by ancient tradition and regulation.

"Each post had its obligations, its limitations and its rights. With them and within them the pious Hindu would lead his life, finding in them a certain contentment of routine, and never thinking of stepping into another caste. The Bhagavad-Gita said: 'Better thine own work is, though done with fault, than doing others' work, even excellently.' Dharma is to the individual what its normal development is to a seed -- the orderly fulfillment of an inherent nature and destiny.

"So old is this conception of morality that even today it is difficult for all, and impossible for most, Hindus to think of themselves except as members of a specific caste, guided and bound by its rule. 'Without caste,' says an English historian, 'Hindu society is inconceivable.'"

We have moved onto the topic of morality and yet here we are still talking about caste. I would imagine that this is one of those concepts Durant referred to when he said that it is almost impossible for the Western mind to understand the Orient. As Mal keeps emphasizing, we must force ourselves to stand aside from our own background and thoughts in order to better understand Oriental cultures. For example consider the phrases used here -- "pious Hindu" - "tradition" (remember that song in Fiddler on the Roof?) -- "contentment of routine" -- "rule of life" -- "orderly fulfillment of destiny."

Consider Durant's prediction -- if the caste system ever dies, there will be moral disorder in India. Your thoughts, please?

Robby

I was born in 1920 and raised in northern New York State, on the Canadian border, one of 14 children, a close knit family of 7 boys and 7 girls with French Canadian parents, who could barely speak english. Five of the boys served in the armed services during WW2, and one of the girls worked in the War Department.

There was no discrimination nor intolerance in my neighborhood while I was a youth, and my parents, who could barely speak English, never spoke negatively about other ethnic or racial groups.

I was friendly with the local Rabbi's children, and the chidren of members of his congregation, and was often welcomed into their homes during the depression, and shared their kosher food and stories with them, even though they knew I was a Christian.

One of my best friends was Jake Miller, son of a local junk dealer, who sold used furniture to the depression era families. Jake and I both enlisted after Pearl Harbor and took basic training together. Jake was killed in WW2, in Africa.

However, during basic training, we realized that there was much racial discrimination and intolerance prevalent throughout other areas of the country, as some of our fellow recruits demonstrated this.

Being of french descent, I was labelled as "a frog", Jake was jewish, so he was "a kike ". An Italian was "a wop", a German was "a kraut", a mexican was 'a spick', an African American was a " jig-a-boo" and there were other labels for other races and nationalities.

WW2 became the great melting pot, and after fighting through Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany and Austria against a common enemy, protecting each other's backs, we realized that the holocaust was caused by us all.

Never again would we be intolerant of others because of race, color or creed.

Pat

Robby

Robby

Robby

"Consequently there was no birth control in India, and abortion was branded as a crime equal to the murder of a Brahman. Infanticide occurred, but it was exceptional. The father was glad to have children, and proud to have many. The tenderness of the old to the young is one of the fairest aspects of Hindu civilization."

Any comments?

Robby

Robby

How difficult this is for us in this society of obsolescence to understand. How quickly we become bored. We change jobs. We change our clothing styles. We change locations where we live. We even change spouses. Or is this true only of those of us with sufficient finances?"

Robby

"Manu gave the name of 'Gandharva' marriage to unions by mutual choice, and stigmatized them as born of desire. They were permissible, but hardly respectable."

Unions by mutual choice a stigma. A union precipitated by the fever of sex "doomed." Oh, East is East and West is West . . . .

My son is still single at 25, whereas all his religious friends are already married and dads of three and four children. All the unions were arranged, with only very few chaperonned meetings before the wedding ceremony. The couples seems satisfied, the young brides seems always busy! But they also work at teaching or such, so as to allow their husbands to continue attending the yeshiva for half a day. In India at least the husbands bring a whole salary home?

It is also in these circles that the respect for elders and parents is the most alive. It is not a bad thing, unless it also protects those being violent to their wifes or to their kids. The unwritten rule being that you should never shame publicly the family name.

As with the caste system, those trying to break away are ostracized and lose all the support of friends and family. Very often a head of the family will act as if a son has been stricken dead and tear his clothes if that son dares to leave the fold of religion and goes to live in a house with TV, newspapers, normal clothing and hair style. It is a very hard thing to do in those conditions, materially as well as mentally because they were never prepared to fend alone.

Thus I see another similitude today with the customs of ancient civilizations. Bubble

Robby

I wonder if that is indeed so, Alki. Perhaps as we move along in "The Story of Civilization," we may find that there is a strong Oriental heritage in Spain. In this discussion group, we are not examining the Oriental effect on just America but on the entire Western Civilization.

Robby

Robby

"The aim of Kama in Indian literature deals with pleasure and love. It is hypothesized that Kama teachings came into existence because of frustation in married life in a patriarchal society where marriages were arranged for convenience, while marriages of love were uncommon. The Kama literature was written in a technical format and is thought to have been written for the people of higher castes because the social atmosphere of the time allowed very little private time for husband and wife. Sexual relations were seen as the only allowable token a husband could show his new bride, but at the same time, sex was a source of anxiety for the couple because it was one of the only activities privately shared by the couple and stood as the grounds for which the relationship was based. The lower castes did not have such problems because the men and women interacted on a daily basis, and therefore were able to develop relationships not solely based on sexual performance.

"The Kamasutra is a technical account of the social structure dealing with manners, morals and culture. Vatsyayana describes Kama as one of the three values of life along with virtue (dharma) and wealth (artha), which is a departure from the traditional four stages of life, but it shows the separation of Kama with spirituality. Vatsyayana sates that much of the condemnation of sexual practices is due to abnormal expressions and perversions rather than due to a healthy concern for it. Vatsyayana also maintains that sexual satisfaction, equally like food, is essential to the maintenance of bodily health."

You got to find somebody who likes the same stuff. Like, if you like sports, she should like it that you like sports, and she should keep the chips and dip coming.
--Alan, age 10

No person really decides before they Grow up who they're going to marry. God decides it all way before, and you get to find out later who you're stuck with.

WHAT IS THE RIGHT AGE TO GET MARRIED?
Twenty-three is the best age because you know the person FOREVER by then. --Camille, age 10

No age is good to get married at. You Got to be a fool to get married.
--Freddie, age 6

HOW CAN A STRANGER TELL IF TWO PEOPLE ARE MARRIED?
You might have to guess, based on Whether they seem to be yelling at the same kids.
--Derrick, age 8

WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR MOM AND DAD HAVE IN COMMON?
Both don't want any more kids.
--Lori, age 8

WHAT DO MOST PEOPLE DO ON A DATE?
Dates are for having fun, and people should use them to get to know each other. Even boys have something to say if you listen long enough.
--Lynnette, age 8

On the first date, they just tell each other lies, and that usually gets them interested enough to go for a second date.
--Martin, age 10

WHAT WOULD YOU DO ON A FIRST DATE THAT WAS TURNING SOUR?
I'd run home and play dead. The next day I would call all the newspapers and make sure they wrote about me in all the dead columns.
--Craig, age 9

WHEN IS IT OKAY TO KISS SOMEONE?
When they're rich.
--Pam, age 7

The law says you have to be eighteen, so I wouldn't want to mess with that.
--Curt, age 7

The rule goes like this: If you kiss someone, then you should marry them and have kids with them. It's the right thing to do.
--Howard, age 8

IS IT BETTER TO BE SINGLE OR MARRIED?
I don't know which is better, but I'll tell you one thing. I'm never going to have sex with my wife. I don't want to be all grossed out.
--Theodore, age 8

It's better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need someone to clean up after them.
--Anita, age 9

HOW WOULD THE WORLD BE DIFFERENT IF PEOPLE DIDN'T GET MARRIED?
There sure would be a lot of kids to explain, wouldn't there?
--Kelvin, age 8

"And the #1 Favorite is........"

HOW WOULD YOU MAKE A MARRIAGE WORK?
Tell your wife that she looks pretty, even if she looks like a truck. --Ricky, age 10

This is a different slant from the Kuma. Bubble

And Bubble, speaking as a man who is not married and lives alone, I understand that "wisdom" given by Anita (age 9) of "needing someone to clean up after me." As you say, "a different slant from Kuma" but perhaps more down-to-earth.

Well, we're off and rolling. I will be at the computer this morning and this evening but during the day I will be attending the 3rd Senior Net "Virginia Tea Party" -- another term for the Virginians who get together for lunch each year. The first year we met in Fredericksburg (home of George Washington) and last year in Charlottesville (home of Thomas Jefferson.) This year we will meet in Richmond (former capital of the Confederacy). A special guest is Hanna (Dancingranny who I met in Williamsport) who lives in Pennsylvania, who yesterday came down to Virginia to visit her daughter, and today will go to Richmond to be with us. Four hundred miles to have lunch! Now that's the ol' Senior Net spirit!

Robby

Robby

Robby

"Manu laid down, many centuries ago, an exacting code of physical refinement. One instruction reads:--'Early in the morning let the Brahman bathe, decorate his body, clean his teeth, apply collyrium to his eyes, and worship the gods.' The native schools made good manners and personal cleanliness the first courses in the curriculum. Every day the caste Hindu would bathe his body, and wash the simple robe he was to wear. It seemed to him abominable to use the same garment, unwashed, for more than a day. Said Sir William Huber:--'The Hindus stand out as examples of bodily cleanliness among Asiatic races and, we may add, among the races of the world. The abolutions of the Hindu have passed into a proverb."

After reading the above, any thoughts about our own schools and families regarding manners and cleanliness?

Robby

Robby

Not that it has a place in history but, with rare exceptions, your Discussion Leader has not eaten red meat for over 25 years.

Robby

"They are pure of themselves, and not from compulsion. Before every meal they must have a wash. The fragments and remains are not served up again. The food utensils are not passed on. Those which are of pottery or of wood must be thrown away after use. Those which are of gold, silver, copper or iron get another polishing. As soon as a meal is over, they chew the tooth-stick and make themselves clean. Before they have finished ablutions they do not come in contact with each other."

In my mind at this moment is a view of hordes of people at lunch time eating in a Fast-Food place. Let your own mind dwell on this. I wonder if this has any connection with the present-day attitude of the Orientals toward Western "civilization."

Robby

The numerous posts about the oriental treatment of women centuries ago brought back memories of the treatment of women by the Arabs in this century.

When American troops first landed in Africa in 1942, there were many cultural differences we had to get accustomed to.

There were so many different Arabian dialects that the Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians had difficulties in communications in their own native languages among the different tribes in northern Africa, and used French as a second language, as they were all French Colonies. As I was bi-linqual, I got along very well with the Arabs.

The thing that surprised me the most was that the strong centuries old patriarchal system was still in existence, in which women were still regarded as chattel, and not as equals to the men-folk. It was no uncommon sight to see a woman and a donkey hitched up together, doing the chores in the hot sun, while the man of the domicile fanned himself, in the shade , under a nearby tree while he supervised the job.

In Tunisia, it was customary among the Nomad Bedouins, who were desert dwellers and continually moving, that the man usually travelled 20 paces ahead of his wife, on his donkey, to denote his male authority position. The woman tradionally trudged on foot behind, carrying a large bundle of firewood on her head.

Riding the donkey ahead of his wife made it possible for the man to point out sticks of wood that she might not see. She would then pick up the piece, and add it to the bundle already on top of her head.

While the Germans were retreating in the desert they planted numerous anti- personnel mines to slow the American pursuit. Occasionally a mule would step on a mine, and the man and mule would be blown to Kingdom Come.

This changed the whole patriarchal culture among the Bedouins, while we were there to observe it, and made them reconsider the position and status of their wives.

After the loss of a few men and mules, the women were given the privileged position of walking 20 paces in front of the mule, but still had to carry the bundle of wood on her head, making her more vulnerable to tripping an anti-personnel mine.

  In giving a talk about this, at a Can-Am Vets dinner, I began my conversation by saying , " You know in North Africa it was no uncommon sight to see a woman and a jack-ass hitched up together." A Canadian woman from the Auxilary spoke up and said, "That is not so unusual,you should meet my husband!"

Pat

Not too many months ago I read a book called A Son of the Circus by John Irving. The story takes place mostly in Bombay (now Mumbai), and is full of wonderful and unusual characters.

Irving is known, liked, and despised because of the quirky and freakish characters he portrays, many of whom some readers don't believe could possibly be real. Since I sometimes see life as being full of people who could never be descibed as ordinary, I enjoy what John Irving writes.

That, of course, is because I am "Cookie". Like Cookie what's that? Well, I was in the hospital for my one and only real case of depression a few years ago and had an Indian as my doctor and psychiatrist. He called my daughter in and asked her to describe her mother to him. She said, "Well, she's not your everyday kind of person. She's a little kookie." The doctor said, "What's that?" My daughter said, "Eccentric." From that day on, this doctor insisted to my face, always with a smile, that I was "Cookie". I was glad. I'd rather be Cookie than a plain old vanilla wafer any old day. The fact that I'd taken a book of Mozart Sonatas into the hospital to study made me even Cookier in the doctor's eyes. We discussed one of those sonatas, as I recall.

In this book by John Irving (which is the topic of this post, though I've veered away from it), he describes India and Indians, as based on the time he lived there in the early 90's. There are prostitutes and "hijira" galore. If you don't know what a hijira is, look it up on Google. This forum is not the place for me to tell you, really.

There are also sacred cows that drop dead on the dung in the streets with drivers of taxicabs leaning on horns as they frantically try to avoid pedestrians and other cars and either the live cows or the dead ones and beggars who stick their arms in car windows for a handout.

Those adventures are intermingled with the tenacious cab drivers desperately trying not to run over a dead body which has already been run over, or is the remains of someone who starved to death.

The Parsis (Remember Zoroastrianism?) have a site where dead Parsi bodies are taken so buzzards can strip them of their flesh, a kind of bird-pickin' funeral, if you will, a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

There is shown the intermingling of these Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and God knows what else, and the effect the circus and its dwarfs and freaks has on India. I think Italians introduced the circus to India, but I could well be mistaken. Regardless, it's a big hit.

Let's not forget the British. The club described is veddy, veddy British and probably will always stay that way with its Western manners, afternoon tea and jacket-and-tie decorum. The principal impression I received is that all of these are people first of all and worth paying attention to.

The strangest thing happened to me when I read this book. I wanted to go to India. Amazing, too, because the idea of India always made me turn my nose up and get a sour taste in my mouth.

Okay, now I'm going into my word processor and write my own book, which is about men and women and the messes they can get themselves into. I finished Chapter 21 last night.

Mal

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Here, again, is an opportunity to compare the men and women of Ancient India with those from India whom we have seen in our time. What have been your observations?

Robby

The ceremony of the Henna is an important part of the pre-wedding celebration for those of North African descent here as well as for those coming from Yemen. It is a lovely tradition and each of the invited gets at least a smear on the palms of the hands.

We had, at the American School where I used to work, a demonstration by members of the Indian Embassy. They gave us glittering sticky Bindi dots to put between our eyes. They showed us the prepared henna, how they filled little paper cones with it, tightly packed and how by cutting the point they had a ready instrument for drawing thin lines with an experience hand. With extraordinary spead, they make the most intricate designs of swirls and curlicues, never once having to correct or pause. After the session, we from the staff had on the most beautiful and natural "lace gloves". I was very reluctant to soap hands the whole of the next week!

These links we get here are fascinating. Thanks for finding them for us. Bubble

Robby

He knew I was struggling financially and offered to lend me $1000. I declined and he insisted to the point where I finally accepted. On one occasion he invited me to his home for dinner (a most unusual act and one which was a tribute to our friendship.) He and I sat at one end of the table and the female members of the family sat at the other end. They all ate with their fingers so I did the same. It was a most pleasant evening.

A few years later when I had obtained employment and was ready to pay back the $1000, I learned that he had murdered his wife and then committed suicide.

Robby

One possibility (only a guess) was that he decided he was not getting anywhere, chose to end it all and to take his wife with him.

Robby

Robby

"Life is a stage with one entrance, but many exits."

Pause a bit, if you will -- think of the furor in our Civilization regarding "assisted suicide" and compare that with the Oriental approach. Your comments, please?

Robby

Robby

I admit that it could be as hard leaving as it is living: the decision and act can never be easy to reach, but it should be a prerogative for all.

In Israel someone who committed suicide would be buried outside the wall of the cemetery and not with the rest of the community. It happened to the husband of a good friend. Would he have committed it, had he known that fact? Interesting point. Bubble

Robby

"If the Hindus have permitted alien governments to be set over them again and again, it is partly because they did not care much who ruled or exploited them -- natives or foreigners. The crucial matter was religion, not politics. The soul, not the body. Endless later lives rather than this passing one.

"When Ashoka became a saint, and Akbar almost adopted Hinduism, the power of religion was revealed over even the strongest men. In our century, it is a saint, rather than a statesman, who for the first time in history has unified all India."

Durant was of course referring to his own century -- the 20th century -- and we all know the "saint" to whom he was referring.

There were many discharged WW2 veterans who suffered from unrecognized depression and commited suicide without being properly diagnosed by the medical profession.

This condition was called battle fatique during WW2, and later called P.T.S.D., ( Post Traumatic Syndrome Depression.

My sister's deceased husband,Tim, served in the Marine Corps for 4 years as an N.C.O in the Pacific Theater, and fought on Iwo Jima and Okinawa in WW2, and returned to civilian life with latent, unrecognized P.T.S.D., and never talked about his war experiences.

He went to college on the G.I. bill, and then taught at a high school while he and my sister raised 5 children.

Twenty-five years after WW2, during a period of depression, he shot himself with a shot gun in front of his eldest daughter, a school teacher, who is now herself suffering from P.T.S.D., due to this traumatic episode.

For reasons known only to themselves many returning veterans remain silent about their war time experiences relating to combat.

I served as a Forward Artillery Observer during WW2, directing artillery fire for the 3rd U.S. Army Infantry Division in Africa, Sicily, Italy, Anzio, France, Alsace, Germany and Austria.

The F.A. Observer sometimes views the faces of the young enemy soldiers that are visible to him, as he is directing artillery fire on them, and he sees that they are human beings like himself, made in the image and likeness of God, who if they survive the shell fire now raining down on them, may be forced to live as armless, legless or sightless cripples for the remainder of their lifes, prime candidates for P.T.S.D.

The survival of the fittest mentality that we have at the present time, and the necessity in modern warfare of killing another human being before he kills you, goes completely against our in-grained spiritual values and can cause havoc to the emotional well-being of an individual with a strong religious background. The result is that the individual often suffers from severe guilt feelings and with his unrecognized P.T.S.D., he himself becomes a potential candidate to commit suicide.

This condition is still not very well understood by the specialists, or those soldiers or seamen who have not been in combat.

Pat Bruyere ( former WW2 Staff S/Sgt )

"The period of Buddhist growth from Ashoka to Harsha was in many ways the climax of Indian religion, education and art. But the Buddhism that prevailed was not that of Buddha. We might better describe it as that of his rebellious disciple Subhadda, who on hearing of the Master's death, said to the monks: 'Enough, sirs! Weep not, neither lament! We are well rid of the great Samana. We used to be annoyed by being told, 'This bessems you, this beseems you not.' But now we shall be able to do whatever we like, and what we do not like, that we shall not have to do!

"The first thing they did with their freedom was to split into sects. The Buddhists of south India and Ceylon held fast for a time to the simpler and purer creed of the Founder, which came to be called 'Hinayana,' or the 'Lesser Vehicle.' They worshiped Buddha as a great teacher, but not as a god. But throughout northern India, Tibet, Mongolia, China and Japan the Buddhism that prevailed was the 'Mahayana,' or the 'Greater Vehicle,' defined and propagated by Kanishka's Council. These politically inspired theologians announced the divinity of Buddha, surrounded him with angels and saints, adopted the Yoga asceticism of Patanjali, and issued in Sanskrit a new set of Holy Writ."

Any similarities in other religions where there was division and then further division? Any cases of followers saying: "I'm not going to do it that way any more?"

Robby

Hasn't our experience here as we moved from Civilization to Civilization demonstrated to us that each "new" society borrowed from the previous or from those existing at the same time? In fact, couldn't this go back almost to Primitive Man? Just what is "original" anyway?

Robby

Robby

As a young combat soldier in WW2 I was close to death and the end of my mortal existence many times, and thought many times about what an after life would be like.

After living on this planet over 80 years, I now look out at this tremendous universe with awe, and I think about how the cosmic process over 15 billion years resulted in the formation of the human brain and human consciousness and how it continues to evolve into the future.

This evolvement has increased our knowlege in every subject, and using this world wide knowlege and expertise collectively through the world wide internet could help us explore the universe, with gigantic leaps.

Although there has been much pain and trauma in my life, I learned to love the journey, and no longer worry about the destination. I learned that it is not a dress rehearsal, and that today is the only guarantee we get.

I learned to look at all the good in the world and try to give some of it back because I believed in it, completely and utterly.

And I tried to do that, in part, by telling others what I had learned. By telling them this:

See the good in every human regardless of their status, race, origin or religion and delight in their diversity. Consider the lilies of the field, and smell the roses.

Look at the first smile on a baby's face.

Read in the backyard with the sun on your face, hear the sparrows chirp, watch the squirrels play, and look at the patterns of the clouds in the sky.

Learn to be happy. and think of life as a terminal illness, because if you do, you will live it with joy and passion and awe as it ought to be lived, and you will realize how gratified we should be to be an integral part and co-creator of such splendor. "

Pat

Robby

Robby

"In this way all of these regions except the Far East received as much civilization as they could digest, precisely as western Europe and Russia received civilization from Roman and Byzantine monks in the Middle Ages. The cultural zenith of most of these nations came from the stimulus of Buddhism."

It is possible to make a civil observation about a particular current religion without "bashing" it. In this forum we make it a point to stay away from "I am FOR a particular religion and it is the RIGHT religion" or "I am AGAINST a particular religion." We can, however, comment on e.g. such statements as the Protestant religion being an off-shoot of the Roman Catholic religion without being "for" or "against" or that, IN YOUR OPINION(!) a particular religion follows a specific doctrine. If we can comment on Buddhism in ancient times, we can comment on Judaism in current times and compare them.

I acknowledge that this is a delicate issue but I feel confident that participants here know when they would be out of line. The standard is:--we address issues, not personalities and we do not "proselytize" or "bash".

You said:--"I find it difficult to believe that anyone who reads this board regularly would give an credence to Bishop Usher's estimate of the age of the world. Anyone with her mind so fixed would have run off somewhere else long ago."

You may find it difficult to believe (and you are entitled to your belief) but, nevertheless, none of us here sees inside the mind of the others. They may very well believe Bishop Usher. Your comment that a person having such a belief has a "fixed mind" is a comment on personalities and we shy away from that here.

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby

Robby