Teacher Man ~ Frank McCourt ~ 7/06 ~ Book Club Onl Export

Welcome! Welcome, All!!

Welcome, Kawin, Gum, BellaMarie, and Mabel (Jean!) ! So glad to have you! Pull up a chair! Gum I just attended a presentation on the state of Latin in Australia, most interesting!

(While it may appear that I am here, like the character in the Monty Python Holy Grail movie, "Sir Not Appearing in This Film," I am not, actually, check the date of this post, but it's necessary to open this today so that the Book Bytes can link properly to it, hence this early but somewhat ghostly post, updated!) whoooooo

I AM, in fact, in Knoxville, Tennessee, where I am stomping somewhat painfully over 6 acres of a display garden of Daylillies, at Oakes Daylillies Open House. I do have a fixation about daylillies, but I'll be back bright and early in the morning to start out our wonderful experience here!

As I've JUST returned from a National Conference in Philadelphia on Teaching Latin and Greek, and have seen a bazillion different ideas and bright innovative presentations on how to teach, I have a bazillion different thoughts on it, myself. Can't wait to hear yours!

Thank you all for those fabulous movie and book recommendations!!! Have any of you seen The Choir? That's the latest in a long line of great films about teaching and it's stunning, it's French but it has subtitles, I recommend it for several reasons if you get a chance to see it.

Meanwhile, this looks like a simple question, right?

"Can all teach?"

A 2,000 year old question. What's the answer? And what does that answer really say?

If you had to answer that question right now, if the Fickle Finger of Fate pointed at YOU, and said "can all teach?" what would you say?

Is this one answer? "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

It would seem there are as many different opinions on what a teacher IS as there are on the weather. What ARE the qualities, in YOUR opinion, which make for an effective teacher? What IS "good" teaching? I think we all know what bad teaching is, but what makes a "good" teacher, are there any broad qualities in addition to making a connection with us personally?

Bring your opinions starting tomorrow, your good or bad memories of teaching experiences, and your thoughts on what teaching really IS, and let's find out! The results may surprise you.

Is McCourt what you'd call a "good" teacher? How can you tell?

This is a huge and lovely group assembled, one of the largest for a book discussion in recent memory. I hope to add even more people, but most of all, to hear each of your thoughts: so don't hold back.

We will discuss the material in the first 4 chapters ONLY in the first week, July 1-7 with July 4th off. We'll begin in the morning with a few Topics for Consideration.

Whether or not you have read the entire book 7 times, we'll want to confine ourselves solely to the issues taken up in the first 4 chapters, which can be read in about an hour, so this is a perfect summer read: short, sweet, yet touching on some serious and important issues and LOTS to talk about. Everyone reading this has had an experience with a teacher, I can't wait to hear all of your voices on THIS one.

Meanwhile, let's be thinking what we'd honestly answer to the question: can all teach? and what the implications of your answer are?

Hope to see you tomorrow!

PS: If you use Subscriptions, don't forget to Subscribe

Ginny! What an interesting subject this is going to be. But for that split second, I "read" that you have been to our Land of Oz and not letting me know!!! Then I read better... I think...

Who can ever forget the first teacher we had had? Me? Never! and was not even school age yet; my mother thought, rightly or wrongly, that I was somewhat "retarded" (having four older brothers, all very clever...), and I needed extra schooling to prepare me. Thus Don Tomás, my first teacher, would come to our home to teach me to read and write and in the process scare the living lights off me!!

I shall try to get Teacher Man and hopefully join this discussion.

Cheers.

Amparo

Book's coming (but so is Christmas), should be here end of July??

Teachers that have influenced me:

I was home schooled until I was 14. My parents taught me until I was 8 and then gave me the books and lesson plan and said, in effect "Here, teach yourself".

When I first attended school (at 14) I hated it. I thought school was a place where they wasted your time so you wouldn't have a chance to read. I didn't change my mind til I got to graduate school.

But, although I didn't know it, I was learning. The high school teacher that influenced me was one I hated! Mrs. Lane taught geometry straight from Euclid. She would say "All fish can swim. Archie can swim. Is he a fish?" If you said "Yes" she made you stand in the corner for half an hour!! I hated her, but to this day, I'd rather eat worms than make a logical error.

So teachers who influenced me have to be: first and foremost my parents who gave me the love of learning, the opportunity to do it, and the self confidence to feel that all of the knowledge and beauty of the world and of past generations is mine, if I'm willing to do the work to take it. And Mrs. Lane who let me see that I have a mind as sharp as anyone's and no one can bamboozle me unless I let them.

can you tell us why? My f2f group read Angela's Ashes and i listened to "Tis" on tape. How wonderful to hear he's Irish brogue.

I read all those "teacher" books. Someone said they liked Up the Down Staircase. I was in my first teaching job and was sitting in the living room of a retired teacher's house where i was boarding and i can remember as clear as if it was yesterday, laughing out loud thru the whole book because it was so true! The movie wasn't nearly as good as the book.

I have a friend, who i'm trying to talk into joining us here, who said she was reading Nancy Drew books when her 10th grade English teacher, Mrs Deihl, suggested she read East of Eden. She was hooked and now has a PhD in English. This past week-end my friend retired and during a party at her house, several of the women of my high school class who had had Mrs Deihl for English walked down the street to visit her --------she's 101 and holds a "salon" in her living room. People drop in to see her all the time.

I had a lot of male teachers in my high school, none in elementary school, a few more in jr high school and a lot in high school.

I agree teaching is more than content. i try to instill a love of learning in my history classes by telling them it really is his/her story and tv and Hollywood could save themselves a lot of scriptwriting if they just went to history books and found the exciting stories.

Can anyone teach? NO! And that's classroom teaching, as well as one-on-one teaching, even tho those are two very different kinds of teaching. I can do and love doing classroom teaching, i'm not good at one-on-one.

Some people just can't get the concepts across, or have enough patience to work at getting the concept across. And those wonderful stories that you told at the other site about elementary teachers who knew how to make you feel good about yourselves are an important element. Students will not ask questions if they think they are going to be made fun of, or made to look stupid.

So much to talk about..........you'd better extend your contract, Ginny, this may take longer than a month

.......I'm on my swing w/ my lemonade - or if Marni is coming, my madeira...........and i want to hear about the copper beech, did you get to see it?..........jean

I'm coming, too, Jean. I'll bring some Madeira and some Manchego cheese from Spain, too. The Don Quixote fans are developing a taste for it! Loved your story of the fire on the island. Wow!

Marni

How very refreshing to hear someone still has a salon where friend gather to talk!

When I was very young child my parents, and -much older than me- brothers, used to have friends drop in the evenings and they/we would sing, play music, recite, read or just plain talk. Those years I remember as the best ever in my life!!

What a shame TV has robbed us such precious times and moments.

Amparo

and I married a school teacher. ..elementary school who became a priniple along the way. I spent some time in school camp and subbing. . and there are other teachers in the family. do I know something about it.. you bet I do. .the good the bad and the ugly. . . .claire

Well a bright good morning to all of you here on our first day of Teacher Man, I must confess I am somewhat nervous, myself. Reading this has brought back the "feel" of the classroom and so many memories, I feel as if I have reverted back 41 years. That bit about entering the room, greeting the students! Oh we have a LOT to talk about in this one.

Welcome, welcome Amparo, and Winsum! I hate the book will not be out there, Amparo, pull up a chair anyway, and tell us about teaching methods in Australia!

So Mabel (Jean) says all canNOT teach, what do the rest of you say? Why is that? Can all be TAUGHT to teach then?

(I do hope your friend can join us here, Jean!!) Thank you for recommending us.

Winsum, we'd love to hear the stories, good, bad AND ugly!

Joan K, loved this: When I first attended school (at 14) I hated it. I thought school was a place where they wasted your time so you wouldn't have a chance to read.

hahaha I thought much the same thing! I am absolutely intrigued that you were home schooled, you must be one of the first ones. You've certainly turned out well!!!!!

I'm wondering from reading your posts this morning if we might make a list of what...a good...I would say teacher does, but it would seem that the learner also plays a part in the process too, in that there seems to be some sort of leap to the Learner feeling empowered? So is a teacher more of a catalyst?

Thank you SierraRose, you are absolutely correct, not to worry, Jean we're just getting started today!!

Hats, Mippy is correct. If you saw the movie Gone With the Wind, you recall Melanie pounding her chest three times in an attitude of prayer saying, "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault:" (mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa). I understand it was part of the Catholic confession, and McCourt would be using it in that way, in his somewhat negative references to the influence of the church in his childhood, where, apparently (is this the opinion you got?) his own faults were a point of importance. The Guilt factor. We might want to look at his references to his childhood religious experiences before we're through.

But now I am wondering what you thought of the first 4 chapters? What one thing stood out for you the most? I am wondering what you thought of the outline of what the teacher is supposed to be doing on page 52, starting with the Lesson Plan (paragraph 3): "First, you are to state your aim."

I'll put those in the heading as the day progresses. If you yourself did not take a "Methods" course in teaching are you surprised to see them? Which teacher "method" surprised you the most?

Since McCourt knew that the kids would ask him to tell them a story, any story, to get off the subject, why do you think he did? Do you think what he did worked? Why or why not?

One thing totally missing in this book is the part where he hears from the students after they pass on in life? Did he hear, does he hear? Do they write him now? I was interested in that and I don't see it, maybe I read too fast?

I taught my very first class by myself (not Practice Teaching) in 1965. New teachers always get the worst sections and I got one in English in the 9th Grade at the Junior High School I taught here in SC (because there were not enough Latin classes to fill up a day), in which I, a 21 year old, had students who ranged in age up to 19. This was during the Vietnam War. Should you have failed a male student, he, having no proof of academic progress, would be called up. You needed a reason then not to be called up and drafted, and sent off. It was quite a….what you might call moral imperative. Need I say nobody failed in my classes?

My kids were tough kids from the "mill district" in SC. It took me no time at all, just like McCourt, to throw out the educational precepts and to fall back on having "Butch" as my "enforcer," in establishing order. Butch was one of the biggest and toughest boys. So much for educational theory: Butch worked.

It was like being in Wonderland. They were wonderful kids, I loved that class, but it was like being in a strange movie. On one of the first days the Principal told me quite seriously and in a serious confidential tone, "We have Arkwright and they (a competing school) have Beaumont and I'd rather have Arkwrght any day of the week." He might as well have been talking Hindu, but I, being so new to everything, did not want to ask. I loved that man, he was marvelously open to anything, very creative, the perfect Principal. I thought that his statement was very impressive and had no earthly idea what Arkwright or Beaumont was. He was referring to the mills and the children of the mill villages or districts whom we taught.

Years later, many years later, I ran into one of my former students who recognized me, who was clerking in a 7-11. He had grandchildren and said he HAD gone to Vietnam and so had Butch. I would like to know what happened to my kids, I know one is a famous Coach (now about to retire hahahaa). The school is long gone.

I know I'm rambling but this brings back so many memories, it's like a crazy Irish Up the Down Staircase, which Jean mentions, isn't it? In a way. In a way it's not, actually. It's like what really happens versus what you are taught will happen, a small dose of reality. Theory versus Practice. I imagine it was hard to compact 30 years into a few chapters, what do you suppose he left out?

30 years in NYC Inner City Schools!!!! The man deserves a medal, he really does. What stands out for you in these first 4 chapters?

I am excited to see the way you all are talking to each other. This group is SO large, we'll need all hands on deck to respond.

(Don't forget looking for the words Printer Friendly at the top right hand of the page. Click on it and you can see the last 100 posts of this conversation, including some you may have missed, that way you won't miss out one thing!)

Welcome. Oh by the way, can ALL teach? What do you think?? Is McCourt a "good teacher" based on what you have seen in the first 4 chapters? Why or why not? What IS it he's teaching again?

more more MORE.....but let's hear from you!

Can anyone teach? I'm going to be different here and say yes. If one considers teaching to be nothing more than giving knowledge, then yes anyone can do that. Parents do it, tv commentators do it, coaches, exercise instructors can do it, even little kids to it with each other, teenagers do it with each other, radio announcers, clerks at Starbucks, my dog groomer, and I could go on and on. They all teach- if you consider teaching as simply imparting knowledge.

Now, if you think of teaching in a more narrow sense, and think of it as a classroom teacher and how effectively that person reaches every student to help them achieve the objectives in your curriculum- then no, every person cannot do this to the same degree.

Some of the qualities that for me would make a great teacher are the following :

dedicated, organized, an ability to reach students on their own level, creative, good listener, caring about your students

Like I said, these are SOME and they'd be tops for me. There are others but these come immediately to mind.

Jean- I am interested in your comment about something Rich (and others) said about losing respect for McCourt. Where is that post, I can't find it. ???

I am in total agreement with it, however. I have only read the first 65 or however many pages and I am totally annoyed at this book and deeply disappointed as well. And yes, my estimation of McCourt has plummeted. It starts out nicely, but very quickly deteriorates into more tired old stories about his childhood. And I have to say that half the stuff, I am having trouble even believing so far.

So, his idea of being a good teacher is forgetting the curriculum and talking about his old stories? He better have something more than this up his sleeve or I am not going to be impressed by his teaching capabilities. He certainly has perseverance to do it for 30 years, but that really means little about being a great teacher.

So far (and this could change but I'm not holding my breath)I am greatly annoyed by the book and by his lack of dedication. Was this simply another way to make some more money , riding the coattails of ANGELA'S ASHES? I am pret-ty steamed about the money I spent on this book right now.

Is Frank McCourt the Bill Ray Cyrus* of books? Looks like it so far. )

Cathie

(an ex teacher)

singer who is often alluded to as a "one hit wonder" with his "Achy Breaky Heart" song

I was more annoyed with the book than anything else, even though it was funny in parts. But frankly, I cannot relate to either the sort of kids he taught or his teaching methods of "telling stories".

I do remember a teacher like that whom we could side track. It was a course in business law in high school, and at one time before becoming a teacher, the man had worked as a food inspector in food processing plants. He loved to tell us horror stories about the food industry and how unsanitary it often was at that time. REAL horror stories that he experienced personally. So when we asked leading questions about that we learned a whole lot about food processing plants, but very little about business law in general.

The following statements intrigued me:

Ginny's question: "Is McCourt what you'd call a "good" teacher? How can you tell?"

--- As a student I would have been VERY annoyed by him, but I suppose for the type of kids he taught he was probably a good teacher. I took learning seriously, which had been instilled by my parents, and wasting time on "stories" (of which I got plenty from my own family) would have annoyed me no end. In fact, I can't help but wonder what happens to the "good" students in classes like he held where he talks to the "lowest common denominator". Do they feel left out? That they are wasting their time, like I would have felt? I had an intense dislike for teachers who wasted my time, and I liked those who challenged me, even when it was difficult for me. As a matter of fact, with all the school systems I went through in different parts of the planet, by the time I got to the school system in the U.S.A. I was totally and completely bored and felt I was wasting years of my life. I was sooooooooo glad when I was finally able to graduate and get on with living in the "real" world.

Joan K: "All fish can swim. Archie can swim. Is he a fish?" If you said "Yes" she made you stand in the corner for half an hour!!---

That sounds to me like a play on a syllogism by Aristotle. And syllogisms teach logical thinking. You are quite right, after learning how logic actually works no one can fool you anymore except if you let them; not the newspapers, the TV or society or the church or the government. Sounds like a GREAT teacher to me, and that's what I think teachers should be doing---teaching kids to THINK LOGICALLY so they can figure things out for themselves, instead of parroting back stuff to pass tests. However, just "telling stories", even though fascinating, is not teaching logical thinking. Stories usually just evoke emotional responses.

Amparo: “When I was very young child my parents, and -much older than me- brothers, used to have friends drop in the evenings and they/we would sing, play music, recite, read or just plain talk. Those years I remember as the best ever in my life!!"

---- Ah yes, I also remember those family times with company and lots of laughter, jokes, singing, playing cards, incessant smoking so the air was filled with it, some drink (never too much), and a lot of teasing and political arguments that would get very heated. Most of my learning came indirectly when the adults talked to each other. They would forget that I was sitting behind an easy chair playing with my paper dolls. I'd be quiet as a mouse while I listened. Oh the things I learned behind that easy chair!!!!! No one paid attention to us kids most of the time, and I thought that was just fine, because then I could absorb learning about everything sort of at my own schedule without being tested or harrassed when I didn't understand something right away.

Even to this day I think children can learn a whole lot when they are NOT made the center of attention the way they tend to be in the U.S.A., and are just simply made to observe adults in action and allowed to listen to adult conversation. I do believe that children should be seen and not heard most of the time, and certainly not allowed to interrupt an adult conversation, although interruption is all right if you are addressing them directly. They need to be loved and they need to build self-confidence, but a child spouting nonsense is not the way to build self-confidence, as far as I'm concerned. My American husband and I always disagreed about that, and still do. If my parents discussed good manners with each other, I was much more apt to pick up on it than if they scolded me directly about my lack of good manners, or if they had listened politely to me talk about good manners when I knew very little about it.

My father was actually the BEST teacher without even knowing he was doing it. He would give me hypothetical situations, both good and bad, and then ask me what I would do, and lead me gently if I went astray---or simply ask, "Well, have you ever thought of doing it this way or that way?" So I pretty much learned to figure out what to do in almost any situation I was in. I would say that builds self-confidence more than indulging children and letting them spout off before they know much of anything.

I guess it's just a different way of looking at things, with a different cultural viewpoint. Personally, I don't really "get" people like McCourt (especially men) who seem to NOT to be confident about their work, their relationships with the opposite sex, their looks, and their place in the world generally.

Oh well, here goes, with trepidation. I'm rereading because I'd half forgotten some of the first four chapters, but what stands out for me so far, is the respect that McCourt has for his students. Yes, he's scared of them, but he gives them a lot of credit, too. I have yet to come across a put-down.

As I read, I thought, SOME things don't change. Didn't you love the list about the different types of kids -- the mouth, the clown, the pleaser, the tough guy. We've all had them, we know them well.

So, Scootz et al, I like the book. I"m not disappointed. It's okay for him to tell stories. Refreshes my memory. And makes me think, he's got a lot of empathy for these students of his, and remembering his school days is going to help him be a better teacher.

Loved the sheep and the sandwich.

Would you believe, without knowing about this discussion, I finished reading Teacher Man yesterday, June 30, about 4 p.m., just loving it! And this morning, I read the email notice about this group, so here I am.

Having finished the book, I'd like to say this about McCourt's use of the stories about his life: in those early days in the classroom, he was desperate to know what to do next. Nothing in his own life had prepared him for meeting up with 30 kids five times a day in the classroom where he was supposed to teach them. He didn't even have his own experience as a high school student in an American classroom. He had the same preparatory college classes we all had as "education" majors, all theory and little practical help. So once the student asked him a question about his own past, he says "my life saved my life" and he used those stories during his 30 years of teaching. I suggest that in those early days of his career, those stories did just that until he managed, later on, to get a handle on them and found ways to use stories that were productive for his students, as ways for them to look around and observe their own lives and what was going on around them as important to them in learning to write and understand what they were reading.

He clearly presents to me the terror he feels, standing before these kids and wondering how to reach them. In addition, he has his own feelings of guilt and lack of confidence to deal with. It's so hard to get a handle on how to get across all that good stuff you want to get across to the kids when you are so hampered by your own fears. I'll never forget once, in the first Junior High English class I was teaching, something really bad happened, and my response was losing my ability to speak! I literally lost my voice! Terrifying!

piker

I can understand both sides of the argument here about telling stories and students trying to get McCourt to tell stories.

In defense of story-telling, we need to remember that McCourt was teaching English, a subject composed to a large extent of telling stories. All novels tell stories. All short stories tell stories. Many poems tell stories. Plays tell stories.

Sometimes a way into a difficult work is to tell a simplified story about it. Tell a simple story, for example, of Hamlet.

A prince sees ghost who tells him that the new king killed him and married the prince's mother. Prince doesn't know whether ghost is really that of his father or an evil manifestation created to seduce him into doing something treasonous: killing the king. Prince worries about this, confides in friend, decides to discover the truth for himself. Finally does and kills the king who was trying to kill him with poison. Many others who were in the beginning of the story are also dead at the end.

Then ask the students why Hamlet is so long if this is more or less the story of what happens. Couldn't it be considerably shorter? Why all these long speeches? Why all these minor characters?

Why would audiences go to see this play? How come so many still go to see this play even though it is 400 years old?

As for Scootz's point about McCourt playing to the crowd, telling all those old childhood stories, I have to agree. Since Angela's Ashes was written so late in McCourt's life, it is unlikely that he will do anything "new." Even that book was fragmented. But it is a wonderful example of a partial autobiography, or better memoir, and it helped to create the craze we still have with us. 'Tis was simply a continuation of the memoir, which I found not as interesting.

Maybe we should make a distinction between personal stories and stories told for other purposes than entertainment. I sometimes tell my students personal stories but only when the story matches something we are discussing OR when I sense that they are falling asleep and need to be brought back to attention. They will all wake up and pay close attention to stories.

Sometimes, too, students have personal stories that help to illuminate the topic we are discussing. For example, last semester while we were reading The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time, one of my students told stories of his autistic older brother. Another student went to high school in New Jersey where they had a special magnet program for autistic children. One of her friends was a high functioning autistic and her boyfriend as his community service project worked closely with the children.

Maryal

Welcome, Piker. I was cheered by your saying you read about Teacher Man in Book Bytes. That makes the effort well worth it.

I think the stories that McCourt told helped get the students attention. If you can't get them to hear/listen to what you're saying, you're wasting your breath.

Welcome Piker--You and I were posting at the same time.

Pat--Yes, exactly, first you have to get their attention.

I think I'm outnumbered here as I'm not a teacher. But, remembering my teachers (12 yrs. of nuns - some horror stories, but mostly I remember their extreme dedication) and the teachers of my children who ran the gamut of wonderful to horrible, I can offer opinions from the parent side.

Joan K. In reading your comments of home schooling, I remembered my oldest son's 5th grade teacher. At one point he was having a hard time getting points across to some of the kids, and instead of keeping the sharper ones in class and boring them he told three of them to go to the library and learn how to build a radio. For my son that was the beginning of a lifelong love of electricity - he is currently head of an electronics firm. But that teacher sensed something that would interest and thus educate those three.

Ginny, "Can all teach?" No, no, no. At least effectively. We live in a rural area and there was great diversity in what was expected to be taught. Not all would be on the college track, but some would. Now with school consolidations, that is remedied with larger classes and different areas in the high school that can be taken - shop, business, college bound, etc. And from what I have observed, there is a need for teachers with different personalities and methods to reach different groups.

Scootz I guess I was one of those that said I had lost respect for McCourt after reading Tis. One thing to expose your own dirty linen, but not your mother's. Then, with this book, after reading the Prologue, realized that this was a 'pity party' for McCourt. Who in heaven's name does he think ever had a perfect childhood?! A friend of mine who had read the book referred to him as a one book author. And with that said, after I got used to his writing style, I enjoyed the book.

If he was telling stories to get their attention that's one thing. As a teacher, I know the value of that. From what little I have read thus far, that isn't the impression I get. But we shall see as it goes along.

That sandwich story, and the story about that woman with all the bedfellows? Those are the things I am not even sure I believe or not. Maybe because I feel gipped, and I because I feel he is pandering to the crowds who loved AA (count me in there, too, as one who loved the book ), I am having trouble with his credibility at this point. I feel like all these stories are a lot of blarney designed to make an otherwise boring tale a bit more juicy.

Sierra mentioned this type of teaching being annoying to her as a student, and I agree. Not only that though, but I have to wonder what other teachers felt about him?

I really hope that as this goes along, I gain back some respect.

What was the point of him eating the sandwich? That really turned me off. Was it a baloney sandwich? If not, it should have been.

I think I'll limit myself to one post each morning and reply to all the others at that time. I am really so upset by this book, and him, that I am afraid I am going to alienate everyone. I'll sincerely try to keep it down to a dull roar. And I'm sensitive to ruining the book for those who like it. See y'all tomorrow morning.

Hi Ginny Off Topic: You mentioned Latin teaching in Aust - I would say there is really very little of it outside the universities. Even so some years ago the major Uni here axed their Classics Dept (funding cuts were blamed) and just kept a few courses within Cultural Studies Dept. Fortunately they managed to keep some talented teachers who also offer courses to the public through Adult & Community programmes. I keep meaning to enrol.

Can anyone teach? Scootz answered that one. I also think everyone can teach in one way or another though not necessarily in the classroom situation. It may be truer to say that one can learn from just about everybody depending on circumstances.

Teacher Man McCourt is pretty dysfunctional himself. The deprived childhood coupled with his religious teachings (guilt) outlined in Angelas Ashes would take some getting over. I think he relates to at least some of the kids he has to teach and subconsciously knows how to reach them - by telling his stories. Tell the story and then build on that.

Just about everyone here seems to be a teacher and I look forward to reading the posts from your viewpoints. As a non-teacher I will mostly be lurking - and learning from you all.

Scootz - I wondered about the business of eating the sandwich too and I think the point is about McCourt's childhood. When starvation is a real and constant threat you do not waste food. He couldn't let the sandwich be wasted.

combination of cataracts macular degeneration blepharitis etc. .having said that I will depart. . . claire

I'm going to come right out and say it. I never learned anything from my formal education, but it was not due to the teachers. It was due to the system of education at the time. I was a freshman in high school in 1959 (so my sympathies are with the students not with McCourt). The education system in California had just gone to team teaching where for three hours a day 500 students sat in the auditorium and three or four teachers lectured us on history, civics, and English literature. The only tests we took were multiple choice. There was no discussion about any of the subjects and if you wanted to ask a question you wrote it down and if you were lucky an assistant might hand it to one of the teachers. They rarely had time to answer the questions.

I learned more on my own than from any place else. On the other hand there was a group of us that hung out at the local bowling alley after school and that's where we discussed the various subjects that we were interested in at the time. During my junior year one of our teachers wandered in when we were there and he joined our discussion. Unlike our regular classes which spoon-fed us only facts this teacher guided us and challenged us. He told us there were never any wrong questions. He encouraged his to ask whatever we wanted. Having come from a Catholic school where if we asked the wrong question we got whacked with the ruler, I found it difficult to say anything let alone ask questions, but he was very patient. He disappeared in our senior year, but for awhile he tried to answer our questions. I also learned from my parents, who suggested the ethics or morals I should follow in life. My father may not have agreed with me at times, but he would always listen to me. However it was my grandfather through his story telling that influenced me the most.

I believe you obtain knowledge from two places. First you have knowledge already in your brain and second you know the places where you can find knowledge: such as the library or the Internet. It is in this second quest that a teacher is the most valuable. In my opinion teachers shouldn't give the students ALL the answers but help them to find their own answers. When I was eighteen I knew what I didn't want or didn't like, but what I wanted was more difficult to discover. [I'm still searching.]

So to answer your question, Ginny I believe anyone can teach. It is the system that they chose to teach under that becomes the problem. I believe teachers should be free to guide their students as individuals and not force feed them information merely because they have to pass a test. Now I realize there has to be some sort of standardization, but everyone learns differently and each person I think should learn at their own pace.

Whether you're teaching in a classroom, tutoring a special child, or bringing up children, the one characteristic that comes to my mind is flexibility.

My teaching years were many years ago, but more recently I was a Brownie leader. I was again, a teacher. I created lesson plans like a teacher, had a book to teach from, but if the girls got restless and I saw I was losing them, I'd pull a rabbit out of my hat, so to speak.

I think that's what McCourt was doing by telling stories - keeping the kids interested any way he could. The kids HAD to be at school; he HAD to be at school, why not make it interesting? Maybe a little knowledge would pass through unnoticed. I loved his description of his charges: Lost Children of the Lost Children of the Lost Generation. You'd have to be flexible to teach "lost children".

If this were a class of high school English students reading Shakespeare, I don't think the story telling would have worked. But this is a class of "vocational students" dumped there because they were "ill-equipped" for academic high school. I bet most of them were just waiting until they were able to drop out of school altogether.

Can anyone teach? In the terms of teaching in a classroom - no. And all the college training in the world doesn't help if you don't have the "tools" (passion, flexibility, compassion, authority, etc).

Nancy

RELAX, JEAN!! The discussion didn't start June 1; just the sign-on and prelims. The discussion starts today, so you're not behind at all, at all.

I do hope everybody started with the prologue; it is too good to miss! First favorite:

"I can even forgive myself, though when I look back at various stages of my life, I groan. What an ass. What timidities. What stupidities. What indecisions and flouderings." Oh, does that strike a chord!

Then McCourt speaks of his Irish Catholic schooling. "That was the training, the brainwashing, the conditioning and it discouraged smugness, especially among the sinning class."

There is a non-sinning class??? It must be all those people who have remained serenely smug.

You have to love a man who wins all kinds of literary awards, and refers to himself as 'the mick of the moment'.

Babi

Hi, I'm posting today and then you won't hear from me for two weeks because I'm going on vacation to Montreal(my favorite city in North America) and then Vermont and Boston. I taught high school for 41 years in Los Angeles,and McCourt is right on about teaching five classes a day. I do have a problem relating to his miserable childhood, because mine was very middle class and pleasant..but I now know why I've never been good at telling stories.

I especially like what he wrote in the prologue about college vs. high school teaching. Many people don't understand that secondary school teachers are generalists. If you were a history major, you can be sure that your first few years you taught World History, U.S. History, Economics and Government at one time or another. That's a lot of preparations! Now your college professor might be an expert on the reconstruction period after the Civil War, and that's all he teaches about and does research on. McCourt did use the wrong word when he talked about professors seeming to be so busy with adultery and academic in-fighting. Adultery happens in all parts of society, but he was really talking about professors getting "involved" with their students, which isn't necessarily adultery, and is still going on even though in the last 20 years universities have all kind of sexual harrassment laws.

Anyway, I loved 'Tis, and I'm sure I'll like this one even better.

Larry G.

". . . . and instead of keeping the sharper ones in class and boring them he told three of them to go to the library and learn how to build a radio."

Thank God I had some teachers like that. They sent me to the library on my own assignments because they had some insight into my boredom, while they struggled with the majority of uninterested kids in their classes. Some teachers had no insight at all and their classes were pure torture. I would sit there and doodle for most of it, so I felt I was at least doing something of value, and sometimes be punished for it too.

I mean how long can a fairly bright kid sit there and have the teacher endlessly repeat what the reading assignment is for tomorrow after it has been on the board for the last 15 minutes but they weren't paying attention? So now, to look interested and fool the teacher, they would repeatedly ask, "So what's the assignment for tomorrow?" as though it counted for "class participation". And a lot of teachers were actually fooled by that one, just like they were fooled by asking them to "tell stories".

I did say that for the sort of kids McCourt taught he was probably a good teacher. It's just that I was never familiar with kids like that, nor was I familiar with the disrespect for learning that I often saw all around me. My family was not like that; in fact, my dad was sort of an insatiable learner and interested in everything and questioned everything, and that's what I was taught from the time I was knee high. So I do have trouble relating here---except for the sandwich. Now, that I could relate to immediately----the hunger while growing up and not wasting food. In fact, that used to upset me no end when my friends dumped the lunches their mothers had fixed into the trash and bought some junk food at the snack bar. I never did understand that, and still don't.

And I do think stories have a whole lot of value IF THEY RELATE TO THE SUBJECT AT HAND. His stories even had value in showing these kids that they are not the only people on the planet who felt deprived and that there are much worse deprivations out there in the rest of the world, but it did sound like a long pity party. I got stories at home, history of family, problems individuals had and dealt with, both positive and negative, relationships stories, hypothetical stories, stories of WWII which they all went through, stories about situations a cop runs into (my dad was a cop after the war). I didn't need more "personal" stories in school.

I cannot relate to his "Catholic guilt" either even though I'm a Catholic myself. I guess it really is that way for some Catholics, but it never was for me because my father taught me to question even that, and accept it on my own terms, and there wasn't a nun or a priest who could lay the guilt trip on me if my own conscience was OK with it and I had the support of my father.

I do wonder what happened to the brighter kids in McCourt's classes. He doesn't address that as far as I noticed, or am I missing something? (Hopefully he will address that further into the book.) And there must have been some kids who were above average even in a vocational school. No group is homogenous in the way he portrays them, even in the N.Y. City schools. Did the brighter and quiet kids get lost in that crowd and feel intimidated by all the tough talk and noise????

Sorry, but I am having a lot of trouble relating---to the kids he taught and to his teaching methods (which he probably did use out of necessity, so I don't blame him).

On the other hand, the boss he had at the docks was what I consider a "good" teacher. He had insight into McCourt, explained things to him that were puzzling, kept the group in line with reward and proper punishment, and mentored him in ways that I see a teacher doing, and let McCourt take his lumps too.

Thanks for mentioning "Printer Friendly". My dial-up is so slow, every time I have to move to the next page, I have time to play a game of solitaire before I get there.

Before I criticize FM too much for just telling stories, I'll finish the book. This is a book, not a literal outline of his lessons, and I feel he introduced the stories in the beginning to fill us in on the background he comes to class with. Maybe there will other things more later.

I didn't expect much from the book, frankly. It sounded like a "keep the money flowing" book from the get-go. But he's such a good story-teller, I'm willing to pay to listen to him. I saw him at a book-signing, when Tis came out. He kept several hundred of us enthralled for hours with his stories.

The thing I remember best was when someone asked him "Now that you're rich and famous, are you happy?" he answered -- I'm Irish, and the Irish aren't meant to be happy, but sometimes I feel happiness sneaking up on me" (ANNAFAIR: did you know that you're not meant to be happy? I think someone forgot to tell you!)

I didn'

What wonderful posts! I have so enjoyed reading them - such varied opinions, and isn't it great we can all express ourselves, our experiences, our ideas.

I loved the book and am reading it for the second time and I agree with those of you who said anyone can teach if they have enthusiasm for their subject and can impart that to students.

I'm touched by FM's statement that when you come to America you expect to live happily ever after and many, if not most, immigrants feel that way - where do they get that from? Our movies, our music -all of which are exported all over the world. What a letdown when you get here and have to labor at "menial jobs" probably making minimum wage.

We have to admire FM for his determination to get an education and join in the middle class of America. He wants respect, but from whom? He's not getting it from his principal, is he getting it from his students.

Don't you think McCourt was attempting to get past the shell that these kids had acquired through years of poverty perhaps; disinterest of parents, contempt from those students who were going to college while they were the "inferior" vocational students. What nonsense that is; where are we to find the plumbers, the electricians, the mechanics if all go to college? Do the vocational students need to be able to read and appreciate Shakespeare, diagram sentences - what will they take with them from their high school experience.

I think they might remember McCourt!

FM didn't want to start boring the students - I think that would have quickly turned them off of education, his classes, his influence and he was scared to death of those kids in the beginning; he quickly learned that a teacher's life is more complicated than <b)"telling the class what you knew and then testing them and giving them gradesl"

These kids are smart, "diabolical" - they are not your friends, they are out to trip you up, to keep you talking so you'll not bore them with lectures, homework, and "all that jazz." On page 19 FM states that I was more than a teacher. And less." and then proceeds to describe what a good teacher has to be!

McCourt is Irish, they tell stories, he loved telling stories; "senachies" (are they gypsies?) made a living traveling through Ireland telling stories.

Personally, I would have loved to have been in his class, he was fun and I would looked forward to coming to his class - I would learned much from him, I'm sure of it.

The best teacher I ever had taught history in a very creative way by dividing our class down the middle and we took sides and debated the issues, i.e., the revolutionary war, the civil war, isolationism, and on and on. We learned and to this day I love history. The teacher didn't lecture us, we argued in class, we read so that we could argue in class. Kids need to participate in the process of learning and I think McCourt encouraged this.

I have to tell you I am enjoying these first four chapters more than words can say. I am finding myself laughing out loud from the humorous way he tells his stories, and the New York accent and attitudes of the students. I can relate so well to the not so easy childhood, and from a family of Italian/Irish immigrants, I know mea culpa quite well. Guilt was like breathing in my home, and I was certain I was going to hell just for thinking bad thoughts.

McCourt was so right, about that first day, when the students walk in they begin to assess you, to see what you are made of. I could spot the leaders, followers, shy, confident and the eager to learn students instantly. I knew the smart alecs, because I was one of them in class. I recognized the humor and distractions were about wasting time so the teacher couldn't teach the planned lesson. I did it as a student because I was bored. As a teacher I would make it a point to zero in on their interests, and then learn about them, whether it be a sport, movies, hand held games etc. Once they saw I could relate to them I had their attention. After all , Mrs. Reinhart could not be all that bad if she knew their stuff, and it helped I had children in the same school.

I was actually the "Fun" teacher in the Catholic grade school, since I taught computers. I would teach one half hour classes to 15 students from grades K-8, so that meant eleven different groups of 15 students per day, switching grades, and programs to accommodate. Getting to know each of their names seemed like a lesson in its self for me, since I only had 30 minutes with them once a week. The students in grades 6-8th are who I had the most difficult times with. The girls were so concerned about how they looked and the boys were interested in lunch time and outside recess to see who could win the dodge ball match or make the most baskets. Most of these kids were from well off families, since we were a private school. They were spoiled with the best. I would tell them stories of my up bringing, from using an outhouse, to taking baths in a washtub in the middle of the kitchen floor, and food was something you cherished because with 6 siblings you were rationed a certain amount, and rice was a common food since it filled the stomach. I shared with them how I truly believed in Santa, because I knew as a child we were way too poor for my parents to buy any toys, since they could barely clothe us. (Needless to say, I learned the Salvation Army was our Santa.) These students would listen wide eyed and wonder, how anyone like myself, standing there in their fine school could have grown up as I did. I think beyond computers they learned to appreciate what they had, because not all kids did have those things they took for granted.

Another part of Teacher Man I can relate to, is when he pointed out vocational classes were seen by many as dumping grounds for ill-equipped and they were not respected as other teachers. Being a certified teacher's aide, teaching computer classes, was seen as "an extra or special" and not taken seriously. Some teachers truly felt I was there to give them a break, and I felt snubbed by them. I recall a group of 8th grade students coming in one day early on in the year and mind you I had these students from Kindergarten up....they came in and were all in a very subdued mood. I was quite taken aback by this, since I knew how much they had always looked forward to coming to the computer lab. I finally asked them what was the problem and why the attitudes. They told me their teacher told them that computers were a waste of time and should be taken out of the curriculum so the students could spend more quality time in the classroom for subjects that were more important. He told them that he would have to give more homework on the day they went to computer lab because of missed time in his classroom. I was extremely hurt, shocked, disappointed, felt sabotaged and at a loss for words. These kids had always loved coming to computer lab and now a young, new teacher was telling them he thought it was a waste of time. My computer lab was next door to his classroom and I think he resented the fun and laughter that came from the students while in the lab. I went to my Principal and discussed this with him and he reprimanded this teacher for such inappropriate disregard for computers and for me. I felt the worst thing this teacher did was to break these students spirit. Needless to say he and I butt heads a few more times that year. He is no longer a teacher and works in a juvenile corrections center. I continued to teach technology for fifteen years at that school and my students will see me from time to time at church and want to share with me how much fun they had in computer lab and how I was their favorite teacher. Some students went on to High School and worked on the school newspaper due to the word processing skills they learned in my computer lab. My son now works for a company saving one of the leading car companies billions of dollars by writing programs to help ship the cars more time and cost efficient.

So that brings me to the question, can anyone teach?.....I say yes, anyone can teach but...should anyone teach?I say, NO! I feel only those who choose to teach because they want to make a difference in children's lives and want to inspire children to be positive, productive and well educated kids of the future should teach. McCourt mentioned, there are those who do... and those who teach. I'm not sure I understand exactly what that means, but I am sure one of you teachers out here will teach me what you see in that statement.

I am an aspiring Children's book writer, and just knowing what Frank McCourt overcame from his childhood and accomplished as an adult, I am inspired and more determined to have my books published. I want parents and grandparents to take the time to read and share my stories with their children and grandchildren for generations to come as Frank McCourt has done.

Gumtree, you said

Scootz - I wondered about the business of eating the sandwich too and I think the point is about McCourt's childhood. When starvation is a real and constant threat you do not waste food. He couldn't let the sandwich be wasted.

Ah! ok, I missed that point. I really didn't see what he was trying to accomplish.

I've been thinking about this whole thing and I came to the conclusion that as an elementary school teacher, my thinking of what would be an effective teaching method for high school students may be skewed. In elementary school, kids LOVE you, for the most part. They put you on a pedestal. I don't imagine this is the case with older students who have opinions of their own.

He certainly seemed to have no idea whatever of the politics involved (recall the "suicide note" episode) and I was a bit surprised that he was hired.

All the side issues of the woman and her voyeuristic professor bothered me. I guess I was expecting something far different from what the book is so far turning out to be.

Wow, we sure have a lot of controversy here, for one day's posts.
I'm on the side of loving the book.
I don't care whether he stuck to a lesson plan, I want to hear his stories, which is
not the same as sitting in his class,
and I like the way he used the sandwich-eating episode to get the readers' attention.

Gosh, the never allowing yourself to be happy isn't just Irish.
I grew up in families with plenty of "mittle" European angst and immigrant guilt.
You don't have to be Irish to be afraid of being joyous.
Fortunately, in my generation, we're over that so-called guilt, and enjoy lazy summer days as well as 10th generation Americans do.

Happy 4TH OF JULY!

I wanted to taste the sandwich! I bet it was delicious.

Well my goodness what a fabulous beginning, so many different voices and opinions, and welcome, welcome, Piker, Larry, and anybody else I missed!!! Welcome, All!

Hats

I also thought it sounded like heaven, not like the ones I used to take with me in a metal lunch box where the jelly had soaked into the bread, uggers.

I agree with Ella that it's fabulous to see so many conflicting ideas and opinions, that, for me, makes the perfect discussion, and the more the merrier and the most strongly felt the better.

Reminding everybody that this is intended AS a conversation. WE have yet to hear from some of our readers and when we do, please respond to them. Please hit Printer Friendly at the top right hand of the page to see the last 100 or so posts in this conversation and pick somebody and talk to him or about his thoughts and welcome all!

I am somewhat startled to see people saying whether or not they liked the book or not early on here on the first day! That's quite unusual for us and I'm trying to figure out why? What has he DONE in these first 4 chapters that has caused that sort of reaction? Why are we liking or disliking him/ the book? Can we help feeling protective of him? Is this, through his stories and thoughts, another way of endearing himself to us? I am quite struck by that, normally we don't talk about that, if we do, at all, till the end. I think he's weaving a spell already, it's amazing. (I love that we're doing this).

Winsum I am sorry you're having a problem reading my own post's font colors but I'm only one of many here, surely you can enjoy the others and skip mine. Meanwhile in an effort to keep my own green (so appropriate, don't you think) I'm changing it. Do let me know if you can see it, I am sorry for the problem. Often the settings we all have put on our own computer govern what we see, if the colors distract you can set your own computer to override them, just FYI, a lot of people don't know that. Meanwhile I'll try this darker green.

Meanwhile what marvelous posts and thoughts. Scootz challenges his stories, and I wonder if you also wondered if they could be true? Here's this tiny wiry guy on the loading docks, I myself wondered about his stories there. How about YOU?

In the heading I have put some of the thoughts that came to me while reading your own posts, as jumping off places, please do not consider them a "test," hahaha and number your paper and answer all of them, and a somewhat startling "Reader's Guide," (that's the entire of it) on this book.

Did you ask yourself what hope a teacher has in a tough inner city school who has NOT perhaps had a rough childhood to call upon? Might he in fact, in an effort to "connect," on a level they understand, tend to exaggerate a tad? Like a new prisoner in jail, exaggerate his crime to get respect?

It would seem Mr. McCourt (and we do have to remember he had these experiences, for the most part, before he wrote Angela's Ashes) would like respect. I think he's right there, and he asks why respect is not given. I liked that Pedln picked up he did treat the children and the sandwich with respect.

Amparo raised an excellent point when she said she was considered somewhat "retarded," and a tutor was brought in. We are all familiar with the studies of like classes in which one was told they were brilliant and the other told they were stupid and the result. Are you somewhat surprised, then, to find administrators telling McCourt (or just who DID tell him) that the kids were somewhat worthless and would eat him up?

More….

Now Joan K and Jean talk about teaching being more than content and you all have had a wonderful take on that, but if teaching is NOT conveying content, then does the student go out the way he came in? If not, why not? What makes the difference?

We have become a Service Society but nobody wants to provide the services. If you have ever had to beg a plumber to come to your house you know what I mean. Should a plumber, because he works on commodes and sewer pipes, be ignorant of the world of literature? When's the last time you talked to a plumber? They are a lot more intelligent than anybody gives them credit for. SHOULD literature be taught in Vocational Schools? Heck it was not so long ago that the field of Engineering did not have any "foreign language requirement" nor literature courses. Where's the whole man?

Scootz made many interesting points. When we first started offering Latin here on SeniorNet a person said to me, "no you won't be TEACHING Latin, you'll be"….(I sort of blacked out here) something about "facilitating their own discovery" or something and I thought you don't know Latin from a hole in the wall. Now I'm beginning to rethink somewhat..

Scootz listed these qualities of a good teacher:

dedicated

organized

an ability to reach students on their own level

creative

good listener

caring about your students. I think we might put these in the heading, which does McCourt fail if any?

SierraRose, my husband would agree with you about children listening, loved the story of your father, that was lovely.

Good point Piker on "my life saved my life," loved your story on your losing your voice in your first class! I used to have nightmares about the entire class standing up and getting out of hand, for some strange reason, maybe I've seen too many movies. It IS frightening.

Deems (I hope I have welcomed you in the older discussion, if not, welcome again!) good point on English being " a subject composed to a large extent of telling stories."

Marylin, good points on the "college track" and Vocational Ed, and how interesting about the "one book author" comment. I have not read 'Tis, but I am getting the feeling McCourt is very sensitive as a person (maybe we all should be). Good points!

Gum, another good point, when you say that "one can learn from just about everybody depending on circumstances," what would you say makes the "learning" happen? A desire to learn? Can you learn unwillingly? Something like English literature? Wilfred Owen?

Is anybody here familiar with Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon?

Scrawler, what an awful experience in CA, that's not much of an educational system, but it does answer some questions I have had on advice received from that quarter, hahahaa

So you see a deep divide and the fault in the hands of the system: the educational system. I am wondering, idly, in this Age of Blaming the Parent, where the blame really lies? What do YOU think?

Aberlaine, I have never understood the term "The Lost Generation," much less McCourt's The Lost Children of the Lost Children of the Lost Generation. What did you understand this to mean??

Babi, I liked your statement on "the mick of the moment." Yes, very ingenuous. I think Mc Court protests too much, and for effect, with his "flounderings," and "ass" statements of his youth. Which of us has NOT been an idiot? I believe he wants to be respected, AND liked. We've all had teachers who wanted to be "liked." I am not sure that that always corresponds with learning, I am struggling with what bridges that gap.

Larry, hail and farwell, for only two weeks, tho! As it is summertime, we do have a lot of travelers and vacations going on, we are delighted to see you and look forward to your last two weeks here!

High school teachers as generalists? Well it's true you have to teach everything under the sun if you're in it for a while. I will never forget teaching Girl's Gym one year. (I am glad to have you here, with 41 years of high school teaching experience, I really want to hear all you have to say about a lot of things) but in general you are teaching out of field, right? You are only certified in one field, not a million, or is CA different? I am awaiting your return with anticipation, welcome!

Ella, I agree and great honing in on "respect," yes I agree so far the entire book, to me, has BEEN about his quest for respect, and why should he NOT have it? Sounds like you had a wonderful history teacher, I wish I had. To this day I stiffen up when history is mentioned.

Makes you wonder what else a "teacher" contributed to our personal progress!

BellaMarie, and "respect" has entered your story, too. Maybe we need to contemplate McCourt's own thoughts on that in the heading. Why IS it we can't respect each other? Is he correct that some people are just trying to hang on to their own positions at your expense?

Definitely write, you have the gift!

Scootz, I was not surprised that he was hired, wasn't it Up The Down Staircase which made the point they would take anybody, they were desperate, remember McCourt was not a famous Pulitzer Prize winning author then, but he must have had something!

Sierra Rose, such a great point about the brighter kids in the class, and the class not being homogenous. Who should the teacher aim at, I wonder?

Mippy another good point about the difference in the Reader and the Students in his class! The book was written for the reader, right? A Reader who likes Mc Court and would like to hear more about his life, it's a memoir.

I mean, is that what we expected or did we expect something else? I think I expected something else.

So in telling this memoir is he also….I am now wondering what, in fact, he is attempting to do. For a humble guy (would you all agree he's humble?) he's taken on a huge bureaucracy: American Educational Theory, hasn't he? I believe that I, at least, am beginning to see this Don Quixote in a slightly different way, but it's early days yet.

Whose side are YOU on, (what ARE the sides?) and what would YOU have done, read that again about what they were like, YOU are standing in the classroom, what would YOU have done, let's say…(what WAS the first thing he taught, it's beyond Chapter 4) how would YOU have introduced it? Let's try to role play a bit, those were hard times, too, what dates are we talking about?

12 new points for consideration in the heading but you can pose your own. What question would you like to see us consider? I am going to think about….once we find out the first thing he taught (somebody look ahead?) how I would have presented it because I also taught a rough group of kids my first year in English, let's all try (if you like that particular question, if not, do your own!)

Can anyone teach? Well, in a way, we are all teachers of one kind or another. Can anyone learn, might be another question, when you judge the way McCourt taught. He is very different but effective in Stuyvesant. In the other schools where he started, he is still learning to teach. And, truly, doesn't know where he's aimed for those early students of his.

I don't like the first chapters as I have already got a pretty good idea of his growing up in Ireland and all that, having read both of his other books. I find this book very thought provoking, especially the Stuyvesant years. He is a good story teller.

I am not a teacher but a constant student of life and the folks who inhabit my world, from the incredible grandparents that I was blessed with and their Irish stories of family life in America(Lafayette, Indiana) back in the 1800's down to that "wolf pack" of four grans, who live in my son's home. I love telling stories about them. But, I also love retelling the stories I heard while growing up. I am trying to put them together in some kind of anthology for my family.

I personally know a former student of McCourt at Stuyvesant. He has a very high regard for this teacher and his teaching. He is now a lawyer here (far removed from N.Y.). JOY

I think SIERRAROSE touched on a very important element in education, and that is the attitude of the family from which one comes. A student with parents who are curious and love to learn is going to be an interested student. Children who are taught to think for themselves are far less likely to be unduly influenced by others, whether 'guilt-trippers' or drug-pushers.

ELLA, I also had a teacher, in Social Studies, who would have the students debate a subject. And you had better know what you were talking about!

He was also one of the few teachers I had who could, on occasion, be diverted from a lesson. He was a Baptist of the old school, and I well remember the time we got him off on the subject of dancing. He delivered himself vigorously, and with body language, of the opinion that dancing was for the sole purpose of allowing boys to wiggle up against girls. At the close of this particular diatribe, there was a somewhat stunned silence. Then a voice piped up, (mine; I couldn't resist). Big-eyed, I said, "Gee, Mr.S--, if you feel that way about it, you had better not dance!" The class cracked up, of course, and to Mr. S-- credit, I did see a quickly repressed grin before he sternly rapped the class to order.

As to teachers who wanted to be liked, I found the best teachers to be those who expected their time and efforts to be respected. By high school I had learned that the teachers bemoaned as 'tough' were always the ones from whom you could learn the most,..if you would.

Babi

OOPs, almost forgot. On Q. 5, my own understanding of those terms is: Acushla = darling or dear.

Amadauns (also amadons) = idiots, wild men, or the like

Seanachies are, I think, story-tellers, wandering gypsy-like story-tellers.

This is my impression from reading various Irish authors. I am open to correction by the better-informed.

Babi

What a lot of good posts. They raise a lot of questions.

JOY: how great that one of his students really respected him. That's important to know. Of course, Stuyvesent is an elite school -- easier to be a good teacher with students who have proved themselves bright.

Do I believe his stories? Yes and no. He is a natural story teller. I believe he took kernels of things that happened (to him or someone else) and reworked them to make a good story.

Yes, he remembers all the insults. In Angela's Ashes, I believe he got the tone exactly right, managing to tell a sad miserable story with humor and a kind of irrepressible spirit. That is why his fans love him. In "Tis" and "Teacher" the spirit has soured enough to lose that balance, and he sounds whiney. Or maybe it's me -- like anyone who complains a lot, at some point you turn off.

Ginny, you asked where the blame really lies. I think we have to blame the politicans for our educational system. In trying to standardize everything and everyone they have forgotten what education really means.

Education should be for every person regardless of religion, gender, or race. I grew up in the 50s when blacks were still denied the same education as whites. It was at this time the federal government steped in to correct this situation, but as in most things the government went overboard.

To me education or the search for knowlege is a very personal thing. But because of the system teachers are forced to focus on the middle students. This leaves those who grasp knowlege perhaps faster than others feeling bored, while students we have trouble grasping the problem left out in the cold.

I talked with my daughter who is attending PSU in pursuit of her degree in bio-chemistry. She is taking a year's worth of chemistry over the summer. She said she sat in front of some soriety sisters during the lecture and all she could hear was them giggling and laughing. Her lab partner doesn't speak English and this makes it difficult to perform some of the experiments.

I too felt like I was marking time when I was in high school. I couldn't wait until I graduated and got into the Real World. When the time came I went to work as a clerk typist for the government making over $1,000 a week during the Vietnam War and afterwards went to work for the aero space program during the 60s. I never liked what I did for a living, but it paid the rent and put food on the table.

"But man, if we have to do it we'll do it. We'll sit in those classes that have nothing to do with our lives. We'll work in our shops where we learn about the real world and we'll try to be nice to the teachers and get outa here in four years."

Yup! That's exactly how we all felt in 1959. After high school the girls were all going to get jobs as clerk typests and the guys were going to go into the service and than when the guys came home we'd get married and than we'd live happily ever after. Except we didn't have a clue as what the Real World was really like. We couldn't ask our parents because after all they were from a "different" real world. Our dreams were with Jack Kerouac and William Burroughs.

JoanK...While I totally agree with you, our first teachers in life are our parents, good or bad, I am not sure I agree with Mrs. Lane's method of getting you to learn the lesson she was teaching. I feel standing in a corner for a half hour of class time is a negative and demeaning way of teaching a child. I grew up being placed in the corner, and found there is no real lesson I learned in that form of punishment. My daughter's Math teacher did similar things when she taught. She singled out my daughter for the wrong answer in front of her class, and all my daughter learned from that type of teaching was to NOT try, or raise her hand, for if she got the wrong answer she would be humiliated among her peers. I am happy that you feel there was a positive outcome from the punishment, for getting the wrong answer in your situation.

Scootz....I loved how you were able to acknowledge all the different types of people who teach something to others. I suppose when we were asked can anyone teach, it was a general question. Was it meant to be general, can anyone teach in a classroom as Teacher Man, or were we challenged to think as you did of the many different teachers in life?

Piker....thanks for reminding us of the feelings McCourt was sharing with us on his first days of teaching. As you so eloquently stated, "Nothing in his own life had prepared him for meeting up with 30 kids five times a day in the classroom where he was supposed to teach them. He didn't even have his own experience as a high school student in an American classroom. He had the same preparatory college classes we all had as "education" majors, all theory and little practical help." I feel there is NO class to prepare any teacher for the personal experience that takes place between teacher and student beyond the book knowledge. Thank you, I think some are judging him harshly, and may be forgetting how they too felt that first day or year of teaching.

Aberlaine...I love this, "My teaching years were many years ago, but more recently I was a Brownie leader. I was again, a teacher. I created lesson plans like a teacher, had a book to teach from, but if the girls got restless and I saw I was losing them, I'd pull a rabbit out of my hat, so to speak." I too agree, I feel this is what McCourt was doing and many of us teachers had to do at one time or another.

I think like Ginny pointed out, we have formed some very strong opinions on the first four chapters. In my opinion, I think we may see our minds changing back and forth, as we progress on into the book. I am enjoying all the diversity, thank you so much sharing.

Ginny..You sure have my wheels turning with all those questions, will get back with you again today when I have given them more thought.

. . . teacher about dancing. It sounds like something I would have thought to myself without necessarily having the courage to say it. But obviously it rang a bell with most of the kids who laughed. And I agree with you, those teachers who are considered "hard" are the ones you can learn the most from---if you are willing to learn.

A couple of Ginny's questions:

"Do you agree or disagree that a teacher who sits behind or stands behind a desk is afraid? Is that the feeling you get or got in a classroom?"

That never occurred to me going into a classroom. I always felt adults were adults and had the right to position themselves anywhere they pleased. Because I felt that way about adulthood I was anxious to grow up and become one, with all the responsibilities it entailed. I would not assume that sitting behind a desk meant fear in the least. To me it always meant power. It still does. A CEO who sits behind a desk while talking to a subordinate is behind that desk and using it as a barrier for the sake of showing power, not fear. I see no reason why it would be different for a teacher. There are archetypical messages, and some of them are the various displays of power. So I not only disagree with the above comment, but feel sitting behind a desk shows exactly the opposite of fear.

"Even when I was small, eight or nine, I wondered why people won't stop bothering people and I've been wondering ever since."

I think that's something an adult needs to stop wondering about, even though it may be OK for a kid. People bother each other because we are social beings. If no one "bothered" anyone else there would be no society, and society, in order to function, has certain expectations of its members. Therefore it has to bother them to conform. Those who don't want to be bothered or conform ought to live in the woods and be hermits, which is exactly what I do because most of the time I don't want to be bothered and refuse to conform. But that's a conscious choice and I also realize that is my failing; not other people's failing, nor society's failing. And I take full responsibility for it. To ask why people "bother" other people while insisting on living in the midst of them in a city like New York actually seems immature to me.

When one looks at tribal societies, which are usually very close, there is a lot of "bothering" and "busy-bodyness" in those societies. That's one reason they are so close. It's a sort of enmeshment that keeps them close. Without "bothering" we have the sort of incidents we read about every once in a while where someone gets beaten up in broad daylight on a city sidewalk and no one "bothers" to help.

Another question from the list above.

No, I don't believe most of his stories---at least not the whole of it. But that's OK, because I think a good writer has to have enough imagination to take a kernel of something that happened to him/her, and then exaggerate it to make a good story and drive a point home. McCourt is definitely a good story teller. He must have kissed the Blarney Stone while in Ireland.

"Do you agree or disagree that a teacher who sits behind or stands behind a desk is afraid?

Maybe not necessarily afraid, but certainly uninvolved. When I taught, my boss did not allow us to sit at our desks. You better not be found sitting at your desk when he came in your classroom. At the time, I hated that, But I totally agree with the idea that if you're sitting at your desk, you're not involved with your class- get up and mingle and visit.

. . . . why I would not have been able to teach, or deal with corporate mentality and why I had to go into business for myself to survive.

Frankly, I think the assumption that a teacher is "uninvolved" if they sit behind a desk is puzzling to me; sort of like a boss looking at a time card to see when you punched in, and if you punch in on time every morning you are a "good" employee no matter whether or not you carry your weight the rest of the day or how much havoc you create. If you look "busy" you must be good---that whole absurd philosophy.

I think a teacher can be "involved" or "uninvolved" from behind a desk every bit as well as being in the middle of the crowd. It depends on teaching style and the end results, which is what an administrator should judge a teacher on, not whether or not they sit behind a desk. I do see how the younger the children are, however, the more active physical involvement one would need.

It's that whole philosophy of "being the kid's friend" instead of authority figure that I think has led us to the where we are today with undisciplined children and an educational system that is inefficient and downright BAD, and where results are based on test scores (which are superficial) instead of learning HOW TO THINK.

But that's just my opinion---and if I were out there teaching or working back in the corporate world where these odd decisions are constantly made by administrators or CEOs, I would be saying so and getting the heave-ho real quick like.

Just out of curiosity, did you agree with your boss? If you taught younger children I can see validity for the request, but not with older children, and especially not with high schoolers. Just wondered how you felt about it.

And it seems to me mingling and visiting is fine in some instances, and totally inappropriate in other instances. I can't help asking myself why, in the case of McCourt, he should have shown "involvement" by not being behind his desk when he didn't even know these kids. How does one show "involvement" immediately without knowing them? Wouldn't that come across as phony even to the kids?

Then too, looking back at the way I learned best, it was when adults were UNINVOLVED and I got education indirectly. I didn't need their INVOLVEMENT because I felt it was breathing down my neck. I wanted to be left alone to learn things at my own speed, and instead of spouting back immediate answeres I wanted time to "think about them" and connect them with other things I knew.

I guess I just don't "get it".

Frankly, I think the assumption that a teacher is "uninvolved" if they sit behind a desk is puzzling to me; sort of like a boss looking at a time card to see when you punched in, and if you punch in on time every morning you are a "good

You say "sort of like...." but to me, it's not sort of like that at all. Being an adult and being behind a desk is a whole lot different than being a teacher in control of the needs of 30 students, and you're sitting at a desk. Heck yeah,if an elemenatary school teacher is doing that, that's uninvolved to me. It can't be compared to an adult as you're doing, though, in my mind. Chalk and cheese.

I did say in my post that at the time, I didn't like it because it stressed me out to have to always be on my feet. But I do understand the thinking. And I agree with it.

you also said:It's that whole philosophy of "being the kid's friend" instead of authority figure that

That isn't what I meant at all. I said nothing about "being their friend" and I wouldn't because I don't agree with that thinking. I talked about being around and being involved with what the child is doing, helping them as they go, correcting if need be, commenting , encouraging, complimenting, helping, etc. And none of that can be done if you're sitting at your desk.

None of that has anything to do with some philosophy of being a kid's "friend."

.

A real quick scoot-in here. 1) The only time I can remember any of my teachers sitting at a desk was when they had the class really involved with an issue and one another and the teacher was sitting back and enjoying the class. 2) FM's humility has been mentioned several times. This is something I've missed?

I have finished this book. At first I did not like it but by the time I finished it I really liked it.

I think McCourt must have been a really good teacher.

Ginny, You said, "Is anybody here familiar with Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon?" Well I am. In fact Siegfried Sassoon is on of my very favorite poets. When one studies WWI it is absolutely imperative that they study the poets of that war.

I taught English for 16 years. I love literature but I did not love teaching it. The people in the classroom did not want to learn anything about it. My classes were not kids in the vocational tract and they still did not want to read anything or learn anything.

I had an English teacher in high school who told us that we would really need to know about literature to make us a whole people. She said that we would be the people who had the most leisure time that anyone had ever had and that it would be necessary to know how to fill that time. I remember that so well and have often thought about it as technology has developed. My love of reading has saved me many times. I do believe that everyone in the world needs to study Literature and the grammar of their language. Everyone needs to know how to speak correctly, write correctly and they need to know why grammar rules are correct. Of course the first person who taught me to love reading was my mother.

Yes anyone can teach and everyone does teach. The teaching that some people do is not teaching the kind of thing that people should learn but nevertheless they are teaching these things.

Well enough from me right now.

Joan Grimes

Interesting interchange there, Scootz and Sierra.

I teach at the opposite end from Scootz--college. I almost never sit behind a desk. Sometimes I do if passing back papers and recording grades (which I forgot to do) while passing them back but only when I actually need the desk to write on.

Sometimes I sit on the desk (I'm tall and it's comfortable) and sometimes I walk around the room. Sometimes the seats are put in a circle and sometimes I sit in the circle.

In grad school we were watched over by master teachers and I don't remember being told anything about desks, but I based my teaching on my favorite teachers (including three from high school) and none of them ever sat behind a desk.

deems- yes, and I would expect that this is very different at the level you're teaching at. No need for you to go up and odwn the aisles saying, Good job! I like this! How interesting! etc- or is there?

This desk question struck a strong chord with me because it was such an issue with my boss.

I have a gift certificate and am waiting for my book.

"Mysonthejournalist" was not allowed to take AP English in high school, He majored in English/minored in Polish at UIC and has a master's degree in journalism as a Kiplinger fellow.

He has made his living by writing for the last 26+ years.!!

I can tell you horror stories about some of the weird teachers my children had here in the USA.

So I'm joining you all Colkot P.S. as a Brit..I'm aware of the poets.

Aberlaine, I have never understood the term "The Lost Generation," much less McCourt's The Lost Children of the Lost Children of the Lost Generation. What did you understand this to mean??

Frank McCourt defines these generations as those which have no war to glorify them. Those people who were born too early to march off to WWI (The Lost Generation) had children who were too young to march off to WW2. They, in turn had children who were too young to be involved in the Vietnam War (assuming a generation is comprised of 30 years).

War seems to define generations (The Greatest Generation) since they are able to distinguish themselves as honorable, courageous and brave. The children taught by Frank McCourt probably didn't have these words in their vocabulary, never having a relative participate in a war. He believed that there was something lacking in these children as a result.

Nancy

My! What a book-size set of posts to read! As I haven’t got the book, nor will I get it before this topic ends, the posts are enlightening me no end; fair amount of pros and cons. I am looking forward to the book’s arrival.

Continuing my own experiences with teachers after I was sent to school, on a Franco era Spain. The church, a somewhat mellowed and subtle “inquisition” still applied… a wonder we kids ever learnt! My first “official” teacher was an ogre of a female: I can see her, coming along the row of desks where we were straggling to copy letters and number she had written on the board. On her hand a ruler… God help the kid that could not copy as was supposed to!

It must had been about this time, with her as teacher, that I suffered my once and only “sent to a corner facing the wall”, experience. She was telling us kids about God sending babies and children to people who loved babies and looked after them… and that’s me hand up asking, full of innocence, why the woman who came to do the weekly laundry in my home, did always have a new baby and another crawling, dirty, and hungry with her and the babies did not seem to be well kept…, (I remember feeding the toddler and cleaning its face every time I came home from school). I never had the chance to finish my question before I was sent to the wall until the class finished! Was I crying!!

I also remember two very dear to me teachers; both angels. One very old, her love for us kids and teaching kept her going. When once this old teacher was ill a replacement came: she was young, pretty, fun and we all paid attention to her for her teaching was like plying. She must had left a very good impression on me for I named my daughter after her: Caroline.

I don’t know about teaching in Australia as there have been changes since my children finished school, (Caroline is now a high school teacher) but considering that Australia follows America in many ways, perhaps it is similar methods?

Amparo

Should read: "playing"

Iamparo

Maybe your teacher, the younger one, was teaching in this way. Children are the blackboards of teachers. They are impressionable and trusting when so very young; still impressionable but skeptical in the teen years.

I went over the pg 24 paragraph of having the students lay on the floor and maybe, sing. Seemed as if McCourt was thinking that the daily nap might invigorate the class and cause them to think??? Hmmmm, I don't know! He was experimenting, mentally, with ways to teach? Maybe.

Well a bright good morning to you here on the day before the 4th of July, lots of people vacationing and a nice slow summer, but sizzling in here, for sure! Love the conversation and all the quite different opinions!

Welcome Colkot, you are the 47th person to join us and we look forward to your own thoughts, you can tell us about British education which McCourt was surely familiar with! Tell us one of the horror stories, would this have been in England or America? Welcome!

I am wondering, hearing Joan G and Ann A (welcome welcome!) say they liked it or did not like it at first and then did at the end, what it IS about it that has made us like it or dislike it? I'll ask a question on this in the heading but I am wondering what, in fact, we may have anticipated from this book and if it lived up to that mark?

For myself, for some stupid reason I did not expect a "memoir," or tales of Ireland and McCourt. For some reason I expected stories of his 30 years teaching, which he IS telling, also. Would you say people buy the book out of a desire to read more if they enjoyed his first two or…what would you say led people TO buy the book? I have not read 'Tis, those of you who have and who sort of somehow lost respect for him or something, tell us why?

Joy, are you able to ask your friend what McCourt was like in the classroom? What particularly he enjoyed from his teaching or remembered? I am thinking McCourt by then would have been quite famous? I don't know what "Stuyvesant" actually IS, would you mind telling us?

Ann, when you say you did not like the book in the first chapters, because you had read the other two and had heard the stories, what were you expecting? I ask because I think perhaps that might have a lot to do with whether or not people liked or disliked the book. I am astounded to find myself talking about this, but we ALL are, let's find out why?

Joan G, when you had students who did not want to learn, what did you do to try to reach them and what would have been your own reaction to hearing of this approach from another teacher? After all, there ARE tests these kids have to pass eventually, right? Most high schools (but possibly not these inner city schools he is in) have progression in material, things they are supposed to have learned. Of course in the first 4 chapters or so it's early days.

I think we are all familiar with the student who enters our classroom, who has NOT been exposed to what he should have been. We're on step 3 and his former teacher, whether out of laziness or wanting to be popular or whatever, did not cover step 2, that causes a LOT of problems in schools and MAY be one reason for so much bureaucracy IN schools. Nobody got to Step 2, so you have to do it too, resentfully. It's not fair TO the student.

Engage the learner. I want to put up what "they" told him to do. How many of us thought those "Methods" courses were total bunk?!? Were they?

Babi, A student with parents who are curious and love to learn is going to be an interested student. What happens when the teacher is supposed to teach children whose parents do not value learning?

The issue of the teacher wanting to be "popular" is a touchy one, I think, with educators, what do you all think of that one?

Thank you for those definitions, too, they are nothing like what I thought they would mean!!!

More….

Now Joan K is talking about "tone." In Angela's Ashes, he got the tone exactly right, managing to tell a sad miserable story with humor and a kind of irrepressible spirit.

I think you can't help feeling protective of this person but what is the TONE in this one, would you say?

??

Who is the enemy here, he always seems to be tilting at windmills, or does he?

Scrawler, excellent point about us all marking time. Maybe we need to ask you about OUR own high school performance here and what you really thought YOU'D do? I would hesitate to mention mine, we were in a serious prep school on the college track (but what were our ambitions) filling up our stuff under our photo in the yearbook with activities!! ACTIVITIES!!

And to reverse the role playing what would WE have done in his class?

Marie, several great points, I knew teachers at the university level who would run in the bathroom and throw up before entering a class, nobody can deny it's, especially the first time, a somewhat horrifying prospect, after all, public speaking is the most feared activity of all! Good points on we may swing back and forth, I sure hope so!

Sierrarose, good point on interjecting the Power Desk that they use in the Corporate world as an example! I've read a good bit about how intimidating they make it, too, the long walk, the gleaming expanse of throne like desk!

And this: "Even when I was small, eight or nine, I wondered why people won't stop bothering people and I've been wondering ever since."

I think that's something an adult needs to stop wondering about, even though it may be OK for a kid. People bother each other because we are social beings.

I believe people bother each other because of their own flaws. I believe that every single time you find an instance of hateful behavior or other put downs, you are looking at some inadequacy in the other person. People, unfortunately, I believe, only think of themselves first. Like the old device for remembering Persons (this book is in the First Person by the way) the thinking is "I am first (1st person) you are second (2nd person) and he/ she/ it is third (3rd Person).

Mr. McCourt is troubled by people's inhumanity to man and I think he's right to be so but like Sierra Rose I don't think it will ever be stopped as long as people are deficient themselves. It's not about HIM but he thinks it is. He's wounded. It's about them, people think of themselves first, somebody should have told him that a long time ago, it would explain everything.

More…

So now there are 4 people who don't really believe the truth in his stories, what about the rest of you??!!?? What does this say actually here?

Scootz, a great disussion on sitting behind the desk. I have been somewhat troubled by McCourt's statements here because I really do like to stand behind a lectern. I really love lecterns, you can drag them all around and swing them back and forth and have a great time. I like to stand behind them, I feel naked without them.

Now in my adult classes at Furman once again I immediately looked for the lectern. I had an old room without all the power equipment you can hide behind in the new rooms (electronic screens, lights, all sorts of displays) but there was a small table "lectern" and I'd prop that on the end of the table. I feel for some reason that sitting with the group (especially when I have to keep jumping up and writing on the board) is not….not right. I MAY need a new course in teaching! Hahaha

At the Conference I just attended with a bazillion famous international professors and teachers, not one moved among the group even in a workshop, all stood at the lectern or in the front of the class, or sat on the desk, but maybe if these had gone on and on as Deems said we'd have seen different iterations. The courses I have taken in Learning in Retirement featured current and former professors standing behind lecterns sitting ON the desk or behind it, and only one, an English professor, sat at a round table with us. Maybe it makes a difference the subject you teach? Fascinating!

Deems, I hate circles, just absolutely hate them, I may be too shy TO "teach!"

Hate circles. Circles mean that the focus is going to come, inexorably around, to YOU. Hate that? I have never seen them as chummy, but intimidating!

I am interested to hear everybody's position on the desk/ lectern/wandering/ circle bit? If you taught, where did you stand? If you did NOT teach, what effect did the various positions of the teacher (behind the desk, behind the lectern, standing over you, sitting in a circle with you) MEAN? Can you, for instance, like Deems, recall where a favorite teacher may have stood or sat? Frank McCourt has not only introduced this, he's made quite a point about it: where, by the way, is HE standing? Does he say?

Marylin, trust you to catch that! 2) FM's humility has been mentioned several times. This is something I've missed?

Let's put that in the heading also, would you all characterize McCourt as humble? Or?

Why or why not? Good one!

Good points, Joan G, loved what your English teacher said and you are right, All ARE teaching, but the issue is what are we learning from them? Good points~!

Nancy, (Ablerlaine) thank you SO much for defining the Lost Generation thing, have never understood it, and what a startling concept it IS:

Frank McCourt defines these generations as those which have no war to glorify them. Those people who were born too early to march off to WWI (The Lost Generation) had children who were too young to march off to WW2. They, in turn had children who were too young to be involved in the Vietnam War (assuming a generation is comprised of 30 years).

Well if that's not the strangest thing I ever saw it's close TO it, I'd think the Lost would better refer to the war years! They were the Lucky Generation!

Shoot, in example let's look at one of the authors McCourt talks about, Wilfred Owen.

. Wilfred Owen (1893 - 1918), was known as a War Poet in WWI, the War to End All Wars. As McCourt mentions him in his book we might like to read more about him:

The Gates of Arlington National Cemetery contain a quote from Horace, "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori." It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country.

Wlifred Owen also wrote a poem by that name:

Wilfred Owen

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Now here YOU are with that running thru YOUR head, it's pretty powerful, it would seem to ME that it's powerful enough for kids, more powerful than his stories showing them he's as tough as they are? (What year is McCourt teaching, that is what year, 1950? What year did we not HAVE a conflict? We had the post WWII, the Korean conflict, the Vietnam War, Desert Storm, when is he teaching when the book opens, pre WWII?

I would think flinging that out would be enough. Maybe like the farmer and the mule story he has to get their attention first. I recall an adult student I had once to teach to read, he was somewhat uninterested till he heard I had taught some famous football players in my time, THEN he was all ears. Maybe that's what McCourt is trying to do?

Amparo an interesting post on "standing in the corner," we've had that mentioned before. Let's see a show of hands (hahaha) on how many of you have SEEN that or actually BEEN in a corner? Do they do that today? How about the famous Dunce Cap? Anybody actually see that used? I wonder what the idea was back then, humiliation? OR?

Ann, Is anyone here aware of the Waldorf Steiner methods of teaching?

I'm not, tho his name does seem to ring a faint bell. Tell us what they are or who he is?

The "Teacher" used to be something of a god, didn't he/ she? He/ she was in control. I remember the rulers and I remember one teacher (here you go Miss Thomas) who resented my being put in her 3rd grade class (they were trying to skip me a grade) so one day we were making potholders (don't ask me why) with those loops? You all know those little metal frames and those loops? She could not physically hit me as she did the others because when I excitedly reported that to my parents, my father went down and had a talk with her. It must have been quite a talk. Whack Whack Whack came the ruler down the rows, and silence as it passed over me then whack whack whack it went on, but she got me in other ways. Oh yes.

Well I made the prettiest thing, all sorts of colors, a coat of many colors and she held it up for ridicule, I'll never forget it, in front of the whole class. It wasn't three blue down and four white across it was a mass of jangled colors. And she SAID to me in front of the entire class, you may be smart but you will NEVER be able to do anything with your hands. And she was right, it's like the curse of the Lady of Shalott, I can't? She was right? I can knit and I can crochet and I can paint but not well. Have never been able to do anything with my hands. Thanks a LOT Miss Thomas. Too bad Dante is still not alive. Hahahaa

Now one might say, hey, you're not in the Third Grade any more, get over it. Get over it, Frank. However as he seems to know, you do carry this extra burden of crap with you, you think you have forgotten it, but then something happens and it comes floating back up, that was, for her, in her pantheon of hatefulness, one small blip but she made her mark. She, I am sure, is long gone, and she, I am sure was insane and would be quite surprised to hear I remember her. But you have not heard anything yet, woman was a monster. Nowadays as you saw in the sheep incident, that does not happen. I think that's progress.

And by the time SOME of these kids GET to high school they may have encountered MANY Mrs. Thomases. What sort of teacher DOES it take to reach them?

Is this book about teaching? Is it about Frank McCourt? What IS it about, do you think?

Oh Ann on the nap time for high school students? I thought that was totally bizarre, still can't figure out what he though it would accomplish, what do the rest of you think?!? What's it an antidote TO? or cure FOR?

Ginny said:

I think we are all familiar with the student who enters our classroom, who has NOT been exposed to what he should have been.

Which is why his teaching methods aren't amusing to me. Now maybe it's different in high school, but in grade school, when a teacher neglects the curriculum it makes it doubly hard for the next year's teacher- not to mention the poor student him(her)self. They come into the year with a deficit right from the get- go. And they may never catch up. We set them up to fail when this happens. I'm sorry, but part of your job is seeing that the students are exposed to the curriculum. Mastery is something else entirely- but your job is to expose them to everything they need to get to the next level.

When I read about the fact that he was supposed to be teaching them what a paragraph is, and instead told stories about Ireland- I'm sorry but to me, that's disturbing and I wouldn't want my son in that sort of class.

If these kids are in high school, and still not knowing what a paragraph is, someone didn't do their job somewhere along the line. Isn't this precisely what we don't like about our system- that kids are shoved along and get to a higher level schooling without even the fundamentals? We can't have it both ways. Either you want structured teaching that abides by a curriculum or you don't. But if you choose one that doesn't adhere to objectives, then you may not like the outcome.

And I need to add that abiding by your district's curriculum does not equal boredom. The objectives are there- you can meet them however you want, be creative- but you do have to do it. You can't expect kids to learn how to write if they don't write. Stories are great- but then write a story yourself- in paragraphs. Apply the knowledge at the level you can- but at least apply it.

Writing proper sentences, and being able to express oneself is to me a must , no matter what field you go into. Really basic fundamentals that I think we don't teach any more.

And don't even get me started on Texas schools- oy!

My son, who went through Texas schools can express himself better than most, I think. He was a great reader- when he was young. And he loved to write stories. He learned to express himself in spite of our schools, though, not because of them. He rarely was asked to write a story. Then bam- he was expected to write term papers in high school without any foundation. Something wrong with that picture, but hey, when our kids do nothing more than "underlining the correct answer" or "circling the answer" and never have to actually write it- that's what we end up with- kids who cannot write because it was never expected of them. We do our kids a disservice when we set our expectations low.

From what I have read so far, FM set his expectations for his students low. If we expect little, that's probably what we just might get. So far, I'm not impressed with his commitment to ideals.

::::steps down from soapbox::::

. . . truly puzzled about the desk and wanted your opinion. I got it, but I still don't agree with it; but then, I'm not a teacher and never wanted to be one. I'm looking at it from a student viewpoint, and the viewpoint of a student who comes into class ready to learn. I do agree with you in post #60, that if you teach a curriculum you have to have structured teaching and that one can't have it both ways.

Ginny asked regarding the nap: "I thought that was totally bizarre, still can't figure out what he though it would accomplish, what do the rest of you think?!? What's it an antidote TO? or cure FOR?" ---- Actually I just think McCourt might have been intimidated by the level of energy and hormonal activity of these kids, and the nap was something he thought might calm them down. I think it might have been a sort of off-the-wall thought. Good thing he couldn't do it because I also believe it would have caused him more problems than he already had with their energy level and the boy/girl combination.

Long ago I read something interesting about the way different people learn, including children. Some of us are more aural; that is, we learn best when listening. Some of us are better learners when we read. Some of us are better when we write, and some of us are better when we "do". Most of us use a combination with emphasis on one or the other. I can tell you that once I WRITE something it is mine forever, compared to if I just hear it or read it. And in some areas I actually have to "do" the thing or watch someone "do" it---usually if it is computer related or mechanical. Just reading it or hearing it is useless to me, or even writing it.

Does anyone else relate to that?

Anyhow, I would think because of that a teacher has to figure out the best learning method for each child and allow them to emphasize that particular technique, and also use a combination of those techniques in a classroom.

I would think because of that a teacher has to figure out the best learning method for each child and allow them to emphasize that particular technique, and also use a combination of those techniques in a classroom.

Precisely correct. It's what makes teaching such a difficult job. Add to the different learning styles the other factors of home support, IQ, attention span, etc., etc. etc, it makes for a very complex situation.

I don't mean to say that just because a teacher might adhere to a curriculum, every student is going to be an ace. No way! Unfortunately, that's not the case. Too many other factors come into play. But at the very least, the teacher is doing his/her job of exposing the child to what he/she will need next year. Doing anything less is irresponsible, imho.

About the books of Frank McCourt, I have found much wry humor in them and truly find them more memoirs than comments on such things as teaching. He is so full of Irish angst. He tried to find a way that pleased both him and his students. His many comments on the students and their reactions to his offerings were, IMHO, insightful!

Why did I not seem to like this book, at first? I guess that I felt it was going over old stuff that I had already read in the first two books. He is so full of Irish angst! He has such good ways of painting word portraits of the students and of events that occur in the class room and in his life.

I still laugh when I remember his electricity being turned off because of unpaid bills and how he solved that problem in 'Tis. How he kept warm, in his cold apartment. How he maintained the water temp for his nightly soak in the tub! My god, he could have been electrocuted! Funny stuff, well written. Good word pictures that made me laugh!

No one has mentioned his constant reference of examining his conscience. That's an ancient Catholic sacrament that we are taught to do when learning how to prepare for the Sacrament of Confession or Reconcilliation or Penance, well here, Sacrament of Penance and Reconcilliation

My goodness, expecting 7 year olds to examine their conscience for any sins. Do 7 years olds commit sins? Well, they did then! Guilt, guilt, guilt! I can laugh about it now but it was serious stuff for us 2nd graders back then!! Its now taught in a totally different way and not offered to youngsters until they are in the 4th grade? Preposterous to me even at these young ages! IMHO!

I see FM as a bit of a rebel. He seems to constantly want to defy the norm. At his interview, when he said he would have the students write a hundred-and-fifty page suicide note, I seriously thought..is he joking or is he merely trying to use shock treatment with these men who will determine his future of teaching. Did he know they needed teachers so badly that he could get away with saying anything, so why not shock them? He resisted filling out forms and lesson plans. The lying on the floor is another example, I see that as a way of simply NOT accepting a normal day of classroom teaching.

I sense, a superior and inferior attitude with McCourt, if that makes any sense. He speaks about how well accomplished he is as an author, and makes it a point to name all the important people he has met, yet when he speaks of his interviews and his teaching in the vocational school he conveys an inferior attitude.

I think he is still struggling with issues of his childhood, of being poor, in a dysfunctional family, and from being called the cruel names by his teachers. Which brings me to the question.....can anyone really overcome the feelings of feeling a failure....after being raised in an environment of such negativity? Does anyone else see this? His stories to the students seem to be his self analysis of his past. Is he using his stories to teach........or is he using his stories to escape teaching?

I have not read Angela's Ashes or Tis, so this is my first impression I am getting on McCourt.I am sensing he is a man still trapped in a child's mind. A highly intellectual, and intelligent man trying to escape a childhood of pain and disappointment. I am hoping as the book goes on I see he has been able to move beyond this. His first four chapters speak of his thirty years teaching in the vocational school. Since I have no prior knowledge of who he is and his other books, nor have I read ahead, I am at this point wondering why any one would or could remain in the same place for so many years and not venture to change or move on to new challenges. Now, while I understand many people work at the same job and place from beginning to retirement, and there is surely nothing wrong with that, McCourt seems to be stuck in time and found this to be a place of comfort, a place where he can feel superior with vocational students, since he made it a point to say they were looked on as what I understand as the rejects of the normal classroom students. Is that why he chose to stay in vocational for so long? Did he not only feel superior to teaching to these type of students, yet could relate to them because of seeing himself as the reject from social acceptance?

He said, "My life saved my life." I think I can see why he would say that, because without his stories I'm not sure he would be able to teach.

GINNY, it is obviously going to be a tougher task for a teacher to engage the interest of a student whose family does not value learning. She not only has a subject to teach, she has the task of attempting to implant a love of learning. He/She may or may not be successful, but the teacher who can do so is, IMO, a great teacher.

I think the Professors arguments about the importance of position and self-knowledge are entirely valid. We all know now the impact of body language. I discovered for myself the effectiveness of positioning. In those days when I was eligible for jury duty, there were two occasions when the case before the court made me want to act as jury foreman. (I do have these aberrations, from time to time) But seriously, I felt it was important.

On entering the jury conference room, I instinctively went and sat at the head of the table. The other jurors looked to the head of table, ..and appointed me foreman. In other cases I sat on, the jury foreman was nearly always the one who took the seat at the head. An alternate choice seemed to appear when another juror took the seat at the other end of the table. It appears to be engrained in our psyche that the head man/woman sits at the head of the table. Positioning!

As to McCourt's stories, I believe them to be events that actually occurred. Sure, he may have embroidered, told them in such a way as to amuse. My husband loved to tell jokes as tho' they had actually happened to himself or someone in his family. They hadn't, as his Mother told me with considerable asperity when I asked her about one of them!

Babi

Sierra, interesting, your post #61, about the different ways we learn. My mother went to State Teachers College back in the 19 teens, and I remember her telling about what SHE LEARNED there -- just what you said -- you're going to reach different kids in different ways -- audio, visual, touch -- try them all.

About the kid who comes to the class without the curriculum background -- happens all the time -- you take them where they're at -- easier said than done, unless you have a small class.

Ginny, about the sleeping on the floor -- one thing for sure. I'd probably want to come to class the next day, just to see what was going to happen then.

In answer to another question, I don't think this is a book about teaching. I think it's a book about Frank McCourt's experiences as a teacher. And I think we're being a little hard on him. Did you really want to read a book about his lesson plans. He can't tell it all, and certainly not that much in the first four chapters. What has come out is that he's really trying to understand these students, and inept as he might be right now, he's paving the way for genuine instruction.

But what do I know. I was the librarian -- EASY JOB -- no lessons plans, no papers to grade, none of that paper work muck. And I'll admit, one of my happiest days -- when we got magazines on the CD-ROM and I no longer had to teach the BASIC ENGLISH IIIs (almost all male) how to use the Readers' Guide.

Babi, just now saw your post above. How fascinating, about the jury room and the seating.

Ginny you asked me what I thought I'd do? For the most part we believed by our senior year that the world was doomed and there really wasn't any use planning for a future. Two things influenced our thoughts. First there was the Cuban Missile Crisis and Jack F. Kennedy and than there were the writings of Jack Kerouac and William S. Burroughs.

What happened was that we not only threw out the bath water but the baby as well. We knew what we didn't like or didn't want, but didn't have a clue as to what we did want or what we should do. Under the school system where we couldn't ask "pointed" questions about the world around us like "racism" or "politics" we were doomed to try to answer these questions on our own. As brilliant we thought we were at 18, we just didn't have enough real experience to come up with a solution. We danced around the questions without really getting any hard facts.

So we accepted a life where we would probably be doomed and lived only in the present - the 1960 present. We saw two lives converging: one in Jack F. Kennedy and the other Jack Kerouvac. I think their ideals converged together when Kennedy was assassinated. With Kennedy we got a tiny glimpse of what the world could have been and than the door was slammed shut with the coming of the Vietnam War.

As far as teachers being behind a desk, it is an interesting question. In the team teaching classes we were in the auditorium and the seats were slanted so everyone could see the stage. We actually loomed over the top of the teachers lecturing not unlike some of the college lectures. In fact the team teaching was supposed to prepare us for college. Unfortunately, very few of our graduation class actually went to college and those that went dropped out in the first or second year of college. Over 80% of the guys that graduated in my class were either killed or maimed in Vietnam. Many of the girls like myself had to provide for our families. That is one reason I got the highest paying job I could get at the time which just happened to be a clerk typist working for the government.

The regular classes had teachers and students sitting in a horse shoe structure. I remember even our regular classes were large [50-60 students in each class.] I don't remember any teacher giving us any individual time although there were a few exceptions to the rule.

I always had the feeling that because of our number that we seemed to have some influence over the class. If you have ever seen "Black Board Jungle" you could get some idea of what teachers had to put up with in the classroom. Of course it never went to the extent that the movie portrayed it, but it did give you that feeling when you walked into the classroom. Most of the guys wore black-leather jackets and motorcycle boots and carried switchblades and the girls wore black as well. If I were teaching us I would have hid behind the desk.

Wow! Frank McCourt should be reading all these posts!!! Ginny, can you get him in here? Any author would be flattered I would think.

Actually I have no idea whether my teachers stood/sat. I just remember with great fondness the good ones and the "good" ones would depend upon my interests - for example, anything like algebra would send shudders down my spine - and that was because the teacher was so dry, so unimaginative and never called on girls!!! And, furthermore, I had no doubt that I would never use it again in my lifetime; one thing from my early years that has been proven to be true.

Shortly before or after reading this book, I read Jack Lemon's autobiography and in my opinion both men embellished their stories undoubtedly to entertain the readers and to sell their books. Wouldn't you?

I would love to hear more from the participant (I'll scroll back to get her name) who said she knew someone, a lawyer now, who had been in FM's classroom at Stuyvesant. I had no idea this particular school was an "elite" school? As I recall, FM is telling us in this book that they were all vocational schools in poor neighborhoods.

Could she get him in here?

Ginny, why didn't you like history? Did it, by any chance, have anything to do with the teacher? How could you have liked Latin - enough to teach it? My Latin teacher delighted in humiliating a student a day, she hated us all equally - I'll give her that and I'll never forget her. Mrs. Crist, I haven't forgiven you yet!

JOYNCLARENCE

Can you tell us more about that friend who was in FM's classroom? What year? What high school? Can you get him in here?

Warn him that he will be pelted with questions! But a lawyer should love it - a chance to speak, to "have it out" with inquisitive minds.

Remember the book, Stuyvesant H.S. is a school for the very smart and upcoming in NYC. So, Joy's friend went to the one of the better schools.

FM taught in the vocational schools earlier in his career but Stuyvesant came late in his career.

Oh, thanks Ann for the clarification.

It is sweet and fitting to die for one's country.

Ask any mother, wife, sister what they think of Horace and Owen!

Ain't it the truth!!

I think most of my teachers wandered the room but also used their desks when they wanted. There didn't seem to be any set plan.

Circles???? Didn't happen where I went to school. Never, ever!

But always in Girl Scout meetings everywhere!

Hi, Everybody and Happy 4th of July! I am at Kinkos because our phone lines are down and bellsouth says it will be Wednesday ("best case scenario") till they are back up. This happens every holiday, especially when people are coming and we have to coordinate things, and every grape season and the temperatures outside are not the only things boiling.

I am sorry not to be here, but do heep on keeping on, you're fabulous. Everything you have said has raised another question: super thoughts here.

Back when bellsouth decides to start working again, you'd think we lived in Outer Mongolia, I'm calling wildblue satellite (the only other thing we qualify for out here) Wednesday assuming I have a phone to do it with.

Happy 4th , (we were going to sort of take the 4th off anyway, so if you don't see me Wednesday, carry on!!)

Here, for the listening pleasure of those of you who have Real Player (or the Windows thingie), is an interview of Frank McCourt by Tom Ashbrook on "On Point" from Boston.

Listen Here

When you get there you will see toward the top a place to pick either Real Player or Windows. It lasts about 45 minutes. Interview conducted in 2005 when Teacher Man was published.

~Maryal

" If I were teaching us I would have hid behind the desk." I'm still giggling over that one.

I do remember kids like that, the leather jackets, the switchblades, the ducktail slicked-down hair, a lot of tough Mexican kids with bad attitudes, both boys and girls. But in all the schools I attended they were in the minority, and in fact, at North Hollywood High School there were mostly wealthy, athletic, straight-teeth, clean-cut kids from all around the area. Being an immigrant I didn't fit into either group, so I pretty much learned to form my own opinions without influence from either group. For some reason it never bothered me in the least that I didn't "fit" anywhere, and I got to enjoying my differences. Again, it was probably the backbone of my family that helped in that area.

I remember the girls in black too, with pale face powder and scarlet red lipstick. Most of them hung around Venice Beach. I longed to be one of them, but my father would have been absolutely horrified, and in the end I decided that I'd rather please my father than join the beatnik crowd.

These days when I look at my senior annual I can't believe how old some of us looked. It must have been the hair and the make-up and the clothes. But it strikes me every time I turn the pages.

Like some of you have already said, family influence cannot be underestimated, and to expect teachers to be miracle workers when the families are not there to help is asking for the impossible. There are always exceptions, kids who rise above their family's expectations, but rarely.

Since my teaching experience was with 4th, 5th and 6th graders, I never sat on or stood behind a desk. Kids, by that age, had already played video games in the arcades. They had a short attention span. They wanted to be entertained.

So, in order to compete with those things, I found it necessary to move around in the front of the room - become a video game, so to speak - Ms. PacMan, maybe. I even taught with a history teacher who dressed up as the main character of the lesson once in a while.

However, when I found myself lecturing to my peers at work, you better believe I was behind that lecturn. And scared silly! Even though I knew the subject cold, I still had to talk from notes. My brain went blank as soon as I stood up!

Nancy

Thanks, Deems, I just listened to it - a few of his former students called in to the interview and they remembered McCourt and his stories with great fondness. He talks of his frustrations of not having the time to write all those years of teaching until he retired and finally turned his dream into reality! And entertained us all.

When a teacher cares about a “slow learner” it can make immense difference. I was never a bright or egger student until the year I came under the care of my “angel” old teacher. I don’t know what she saw in me; she positioned me on a separate desk, next to her on her right. I was given the very high privilege of writing on a manuscript book (the school had many old manuscripts done by a particular student for a year,- accumulated during the few hundred years of the school’s life and were on displayed in a special hall). These manuscripts were of the old style: beautiful hand writing and even better colorful borders drawn on each page.

I was not allowed to take that book home at any time. But every night my brothers would make sure I had practiced and mastered a different border for next day’s page. It was the only year of all my school life that I was really looking forward to school every waking day!!

Amparo

Happy 4th of July!!

I graduated from college when i was 21 yrs old and was hired to teach history in a high school in Harrisburg, Pa, a working class neighborhood, moderately inner city, very many ethnic whites, about 30% minorities, many Blacks first generation from the South and about 15% Jewish. I was hired in April to start in Sept and asked if i could teach for two weeks in June for a teacher who was going to a conference. Get the picture now.......i'm a 5'6" very slender, 21 yr old female. I walk into a classroom that included 18 and 19 yr old young men.......large guys..........football player-type guys......who could have picked me up and carried me out of the room, if they cared to do so!

My professional orientation to teaching, except for a semester of student teaching, had NOTHING in it about methods for managing a classroom, or about student psychology or learning methods. The ONE thing i remember from my prof' orientation class was this huge man standing in front of the class saying "If you find a school district in which you want to teach and they have no position for you as a teacher, you take a job as a janitor or a cook and they will know that you really want to teach in that district and when an opening comes they will hire you!!!!!!!" ............. Yep! That was my professional orientation to entering and having control of a classroom of 25 -30 senior high students!!!! I had NO CLUE what i would do if somebody challenged anything i told them to do, if they ignored me, if they wouldn't listen.......etc, etc.

This high school (unjustifiably) had a reputation as being a tough place and when i told people where i was teaching they would be mildly horrified, "Aren't you afraid to be there?" Actually, after that first two weeks of having NO problems in the classroom and actually being able to teach them history, i felt much better. For five yrs i taught in that school and NEVER felt physically afraid, even when two male students who both towered over me got into a tussle in my doorway. When i stepped between them, they stopped, not wanting to endanger me and when i told them to go to the office, they went! I did discover that one of the best dressed young man who was in my class his jr and sr years - always came to class in ruffled shirts and a suit, when i asked who laundered his shirts...implying that he shouldn't be making his mother do it......he answered that he had them done at the laundry. A few months later he was arrested for armed robbery of milk delivery men! I never felt any danger from him, but i knew how he paid to have his shirts laundered!

I never felt phsyically afraid in any of my years of teaching, but there was always that mental doubt that i had the know-how to handle someone who would disobey me, or ignore me, or if the whole class decided they were going to do their own thing that day! It never happened. I don't know why. Something about my posture and personality commands respect, i think - BUT, i don't KNOW what that is. I've always felt just lucky that it has worked.

Those first few years, i spent a lot of time behind a lectern because i had to have the book or my notes available to present my lectures in an orderly manner, or to be sure to say what i wanted to say. Later and today, knowing my subject better, i often sit on the desk or walk around the room. There is an important relationship that develops between a student and a teacher based on proximity. It is important that each student know that the teacher knows who s/he is and has eye contact w/ them and comes near to them.

When i do management training or other kinds of professional training where we want interaction and for all to be able to see each other, we sit in circles - who ever made the point about jumping up to write on the board from a circle, makes a good point. In professional training we are often using easel pads which can sit within the circle. And altho i seldom used circles in secondary or college classrooms, almost every secondary school classroom i have seen in the last 15 yrs is set up in a circle. Apparently they think it is conducive to learning.........probably from the aspect of students being able to interact, not looking at the back of any ones' head.

That first teaching experience turned into a wonderful experience when a new principal in my fourth yr there pulled together a group of us to write/teach a Humanities Course based on my World Cultures Course. The group included an English teacher who taught literature from the time/culture we were studying, a music teacher who taught about the music of the t/c, an art teacher who conducted world tours in the summer and had pictures of art/architecture/sculture from the t/c and an ex-priest who taught the philosopy segment. We had 90 minutes every morning to do whatever we wished w/ them and it was a wonderful experience. It was 1966 (ya know - after Sputnik) and we had lots of money available to buy supplemental texts/movies/etc. The pilot program was w/ the top two sections of the sophomore class. It was a great contrast to teaching other classes of both business students and vocational students. But all were interesting in their own way.

I think we have to cut FM some slack - - - - - - haven't we all had situations in our lives 30/40/50 yrs ago that we handled differently than we would handle them now? We must all have situations where we think back and say "WHY in the WORLD did i do/say that? What a dumb/mean/silly/etc thing i did!" We were all experimenting, learning how to deal w/ life/careers/marriages/children when we first come to those situations. People have asked wouldn't you like to go back to your teens, or your 20's and i answer "only if i can take the knowledge and the confidence that i have now back w/ me! Otherwise, NO WAY!!!!!!"........JEAN

I spent the first part of my school life happily dreaming until one day my poor exasperated teacher grabbed me by my long brown ringlets, dragged me to the front of the class and bashed my head several times against the blackboard whilst screaming abuse at me. When I recovered from the shock, I thought, 'oh dear, I think she wants me to learn something", which I proceeded to do with good effect and we even became quite good friends later on. I went to a Catholic school in a very poor district in Cardiff, South Wales, and my early school days were horrific. When we went on a beach outing, I wore my brother's shorts. The next day, I was called out to the front at assembly and in front of the whole school I was birched unmercilessly by the Mother Superior. To this day I could think of no reason for it - even if I had forgotten to do up the fly I had my knickers on, and I was only a little girl. I think she realized there was a budding feminist in the school!

I think we have to cut FM some slack (jean)

You may be right, jean. Still, I was asked for my reaction to him in this first section and I have to be honest. To me, he comes off as a bit of a buffoon and I doubt the veracity of his stories. I'm open to having my mind changed- we'll see as the story progresses if I feel any differently. But of course, we all react to and come at this from our own individual experiences and background.

As to didn't we all do foolish things, etc. Honestly, I didn't where my profession was concerned- and certainly nothing even close to the things he's doing in a classroom. I'll let you all be his supporters for now at least.

I worked with a guy who was very much like FM. He made it difficult for the rest of us on the grade level by his antics. So, I may be a bit close to all these issues to be able to afford FM any slack.

I never had any kind of training inre discipline- but I had done extensive babysitting and so had worked with children. I also did have some child development courses as well that helped to prepare me. Discipline was something I didn't have much trouble with in my teaching years. That said, these were 2nd, 3rd and 4th graders and it was in a very nice Connecticut town. My boss didn't want us sending kids to him for every little thing either, so we learned we better figure out how to deal with problems ourselves, with him as a last resort.

FM's situation is different, I'll grant him that.

DEEMS- I always loved the college classes I had where we sat in a circle. It was so much more open and conducive to discussion. I adored the classes also where we "broke up into small groups" and then reported back about our group findings, etc. The classes I didn't like were the ones with hundreds of us in an auditorium and listening to a lecture. I get the feeling I would like your classes very much.

Happy 4th of July, Everyone!!!

I read this paragraph in the editorial section of "Times" magazine and I thought although it doesn't apply to "Teacher Man" some of the teachers in this discussion group might be interested in it:

"...I recently returned to "Time" after two years of running the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia, a wonderful new museum and educational center on Independence Mall. While there, I got to know he great historian David McCullough, who has been on a one-man campaign to end the epidemic of what he calls historical illiteracy. I believe that our "Making of America" series is an antidote to historical illiteracy, which David describes as a great danger to our democracy. Being an American is not based on a common ancestry, a common religion, even a common culture - it's based on accepting an uncommon set of ideas. And if we don't understand those ideas, we don't value them; and if we don't value them, we don't protect them. A nation can never be ignorant and free, said Thomas Jefferson..." ~ Richard Stengel, Managing Editor "Time" July 3, 2006.

I was startled by his words: "And if we don't understand those ideas, we don't value them; and if we dont' value them, we don't protect them..." I think he hit the nail on the head and I would like to see students learn to understand those ideas. I don't believe teachers should hand the students the answers, but rather guide the students in their understanding of what these ideas are and allowing them to discover for themselves why we should value them.

Miss a day in here and miss a lot! What a good discussion by all.

Wanted to agree with Scootz and sierraroseCA regarding parents. My two oldest had a teacher in grade school who I thought was a terrible teacher. I vowed that she would not teach another of my kids and when she was still there for child #3, I took her out of the school and put her in a private school for that grade. BUT, another parent loved this teacher. Her (the parent's) kids were not good students and definitely not on college track. So look at the mixed messages administration would get. One parent abhorring this teacher, one giving kudos.

Interesting observation by BellaMarie 726 - [Which brings me to the question.....can anyone really overcome the feelings of feeling a failure....after being raised in an environment of such negativity?] I'm sure it's possible, making one stronger and more empathetic?

Also found BaBi comment about the jury forperson's selection interesting. Have only been on one jury and sure enough, the foreperson chosen was sitting at the head of the table.

Also found Ella's comment about teachers not calling on females in a math class interesting. I was taking (mid-50's) a calc class at night and was the only female in a class of about 30 persons. The instructor refused to call on me once during the whole course. It was kind of a joke with those sitting around me. My hand was up every time - but in no way would he (and this was a (young man) acknowledge my presence in the class. Had to give me the grade that I earned, though!

Ginny, regarding your question about being in his class. Yes, I would love it. I think that was why Angela's Ashes was such a success. He is a wonderful story teller. Would I want to be paying taxes to have him teach my child. Don't think so....

One of the most depressing statements I have found, so far, was that of the Chairman of the School Board who told FM that "..half the people walking in here can't tell the difference between Emerson and Mickey Spillane". How could we expect our children to be well-educated when so many of the teachers weren't. Thank Heaven there were good teachers out there as well.

My remembrance of teachers and their 'positions' was that they would be generally be standing and moving about while teaching. If we had our heads down working on an assignment at our desks or taking a test, they were generally taking the opportunity to do paperwork at their desk. I would have found it distracting to have a teacher wandering around looking over shoulders while I was taking a test.

I sometimes found that a teacher might be very knowledgeable in their subject, but very poor at explaining it to the students. I had a physics professor like that. (I passed that course by the skin of my teeth, primarily because I at least turned in all my homework. I rarely understood a word he was saying.)

My older daughter found herself taking math..I think it was calculus or geometry..from a teacher with that problem. She and one other student started quietly taking turns asking the teacher leading questions until they had finally elicited explanations that most of the students could understand. I don't think the teacher ever realized what they were doing.

Babi

.....I sometimes found that a teacher might be very knowledgeable in their subject, but very poor at explaining it to the students

And therein lies the real difference between those who teach and those who teach well. A good teacher has to be able to not only deliver the knowldege, but do it in the way that the receiver can understand it. This may be different for each student. My hub always tends to explain something to my son and gives him way, way too much all at once. Good teachers can break things down in learnable bits.

But you're right, babi- simply knowing something yourself doesn't necessarily mean you can teach it well.

I could not get this book! I am on a waiting list of 100 at our library for the 8 copies we have. However education is a subject dear to my heart and I am involved with my two grandaughters on a weekly basis with homework etc. One of my grands is dyslexic but highly intelligent and it has been a joy to see her advance in one year to the level she should be at in reading and to see her above her levels in math. All of this in one years tutoring with SPELD methods.

The school my grands attend has a great culture. Each child at the beginning of each semester sets goals with their teacher. They are goals which are attainable but stretching. Now Brooke is on the program where she can advance by herself in the class room. The kids get to do lots of research and they are allowed to exploit their talents. Brookes is art. This is a state school which equates with any of the private schools. The school motto is Discover your talents. The school is also an eco school and the kids learn lots about their environment and practice eco school life. I am fascinated with the far sighted education program at the school. There is a huge demand for houses in this school zone. The school is renowned for academic progress, harmony and lovely surrounds.

I am really enjoying watching a different way of teaching working so successfully with no child left behind - literally- as well as those who can, forging ahead of their classmates on their own steam with teacher support. Brooke my eldest grand attending this school is 9.

Carolyn

Re: Bibi's comment ".....I sometimes found that a teacher might be very knowledgeable in their subject, but very poor at explaining it to the students." That was why i said not everybody CAN teach. Our school district prides itself on how many Phd's they have teaching in the schools, but as my son and dgt progressed thru the school, it wasn't always the Phd's who were their best teachers.

I don't believe all of FM's stories, but it doesn't bother me that he may be exaggerating. I love Irish storytellers and i can "hear" him as i read. It's very entertaining to me.

I believe he told stories to his students, i question whether they were as pervasive as they seem in the book - remember he had 30 years to tell all the stories that he is giving us in 4 chapters. But i recognize the need to be entertaining in the classroom - that doesn't mean you aren't conveying lessons/knowledge/information. If you are teaching students who do not have as the first priority of life to get a good education, you have to find a motivation for them to learn.

If you are teaching the highest level academic student who is competitive, who is worrying about getting into an ivy league college, whose parents are going to be upset if s/he doesn't mk all "A's," that's a very different student and a very different classroom and takes very different methods of teaching. Someone has already said he needed to get their attention! Yessirree! You can't make any progress w/ students until you HAVE their attention. And then you have to make whatever you are conveying to them seem to be interesting! I try to do that by making historical figures real people and in some cases people they can identify with. EVERY teenager should read/hear/watch Eleanor Roosevelt's story. The question about can one overcome feelings of failure - READ E.R.! Her beautiful, southern mother called her "granny," said she acted like an old woman and was unattractive! Her father left her sitting outside a bar forgetting that she was waiting for him. Her mother and father died early in her life. She felt tall and gawky. Her MIL controlled her household and her husband and her children. Her husband cheated on her - every young person can identify w/ her and she THEN gives them the quote, "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission!!!!" And E.R. is just a start of historical figures that they can identify with and discuss and enjoy and admire..........jean

I had a teacher for Math when I was 14 that so destroyed my confidence I never took higher math for my outside examinations. I could always get 100% for Arithmetic but algebra and geometry remain a mystery to me to this day. He was excellent with the gifted students but hopeless with those who did not get concepts at first go. My best friend who was in my class said that the teacher had no patience with the children having difficulty and just plowed ahead with the half dozen or so gifted children. I was in the A stream and to fail math was devestating to me. I did not think he was a good teacher. A good teacher to me is one who can teach the plodders as well as the gifted student and give those who struggle the confidence to go on.

Carolyn

I'm loving this book. I think FM grew into a wonderful teacher. I think he had a natural instinct for it. Take the sandwich story. There he is just starting out and immediately, of course, he's tested. Eating the sandwich that had been tossed onto the floor accomplished many things. He totally took the wind out of the problem student's sails by doing such an unexpected thing. He certainly got everyone's undivided attention and took attention away from the troublesome students. It would have been absolutely the last thing any student would have expected. FM made the sandwich disappear so that was the end of that. The End. FM stopped the situation cold. No whining "Now stop that or I'm going to send you to the office." So many things could have just prolonged the situation or made it worse. Now the students would wonder "What is this guy going to do next?" They'd have a sense of anticipation towards the class.

To top it off, didn't FM say "Tell your mother that was the best sandwich I ever ate" or something like that? Imagine what was going on in the mind of the troublemaker. The teacher's act was so outrageous that there was nothing further the student could do to prolong the situation.

FM was the distinct winner because, yes, this was a form of battle. That happens often in the classroom. Some students think How can we disrupt the class? Teachers think How am I going to maintain control and teach them something? It can be a daily situation.

I was in a high school typing class where my teacher totally lost control over the class. We had a bunch of boys in class just like the troublemakers in FM's first class. But the teacher screeched at the boys in a high-pitched voice to stop time after time after time. Hollow threats. Things got to the point where boys were throwing paper airplanes through the air at each other. Unfortunately, the teacher had a nervous breakdown.

I believe FM's stories. Truth is stranger than fiction! I read nothing that could not have happened.

Boy, I remember when one of my students, unhappy with his grade, slashed the roof of my convertible car with a knife. He also drove by my house at night with a friend (2 towns away from his own town) and carefully shot out a window each night with a BB gun. I couldn't prove it was him, but I knew who it was and finally called the police. The police threatened him and it stopped.

Things can get bad for teachers. FM knew instinctively how to handle trouble and was creative in his ideas of how to reach them.

Marni, this is why teachers have my sympathy. At times, teachers face dangerous situations. In elementary school, at recess, a teacher and a parent had a physical fight. I will never forget that day. The parent seemed more violent than the teacher. I am sure the student hated to see his mother acting that way.

Storytelling has always been around from the cave man to our present time. I don't see anything wrong with storytelling in that not only can you explain things better and they are better understood, but they also illuminate the very ideals and values that you are trying to teach children.

To me the most important aspect of education is reading and the second best thing is storytelling. Does it sometimes distract the students from the subject matter? Of course it does, but I think you have to ask yourselves why would they want to be distracted in the first place. Not all subjects are agreeable to all students. I for example couldn't add or subtract myself out of a paper bag so I struggled with math and science in school.

Since we couldn't ask questions of the teachers, we asked questions of our fellow students. There was always somebody ready to help me with my math and I in turn helped others with history or English literature. I firmly believe everyone can do at least one thing very well and I think as each child finds there special skill that it should be nourished and allowed to grow.

I know for myself I learned more about life and life's values from the stories that my grandfather told me than I did from anywhere else. I think that as long as there are those who want to tell stories there will always be those who will listen to the stories.

Wowza~! Here you all are making brilliant thoughts!!

Welcome welcome Carolyn, you're Reader 48 here, I'm hoping for 50+, and to come in each day and find 50+ new and conflicting thoughts!

Pull up a chair, there, you in NZ and Amparo in Australia, and hang ON! Imagine that kind of readership out there in New Zealand and all over the world for him and I think that brings up another issue, have copied out 61 pages (believe it or not) of your thoughts, and am not quite ready for prime time in responding to them yet, but want to get us rolling first.

What wonderful posts, my goodness Ellen, what an awful experience in Wales? You must, all of you who were educated in different countries, provide us with some of your own stories, good or bad (or one of each) as to what your own experience was like!

Lots of super points raised here and questions!!!

Hope you all had a lovely 4th if you are in the States, we had cheeseburgers and hot dogs on the grill, potato salad, chips, strawberry pie and watermelon and 40 minutes of fireworks, we shoot our own up. This year for some reason we could see several of those around us, it was just magic. In SC you can shoot off your own tho how those who live close to others manage to do that is beyond me. It was wonderful, and I missed for the very first time, the NYC ones on TV.

This is a super discussion, more when I've savored again your 61 pages, I've actually taken notes, love it. (I did try to get Mr. cCourt in here but he has not answered IF the publisher even sent him the letter), but did you notice in the midst of his cheery and interesting story telling, how he keeps throwing IN such terms as "moral imperative," and "Donkeys with Purple Hearts," and the one book he bought to take with him to America (page 37) (what is an "oxter," by the way?) and he wanted to find out what happened to Brutus and Mark Antony n Julius Caesar. He especially liked Brutus but does not say why.

Were you moved by his attachment to the actor who played Hamlet? I am not sure anybody does naiveté as well as Frank McCourt. He's a curious combination, tells funny yet poignant stories, throws in Owen and Sassoon, (not household names in a lot of houses) spends ½ weeks wages on a book by Shakespeare "to impress" and also because he could not find out what happened to Brutus without it apparently and generally bounces back and forth like a pin ball machine's ball between people good and bad, and somehow manages to get the reader in total sync, whether or not the reader likes him, you're there when he's insulted, you're trying to figure out what YOU would have said, you're shaking your head at the nastiness and rudeness of people, and you're eating a sandwich. I would not have eaten that sandwich, I know that (too much like Monk hahaha).

We've only got 2 more days on these first four chapters so instead of waiting for Topic Thursday we'll have Quasi-Topic Thursday TODAY and ask YOU to bring in one thing, just one, that struck you or a topic he brought up or something he said that you'd like to pursue that has not been mentioned.

For me I think it's the "moral imperatives," and "ethical imperatives,"…starting with the 3rd Paragraph on page 16:

Profesors of education at New York University never lectured on how to handle flying-sandwich situations. They talked about theories and philosophies of education, about moral and ethical imperatives, about the necessity of dealt with the whole childe, the gestalt, if you don't mind, the child's felt needs, but never about critical moments in the classroom.

I had a friend tell me once when I was teaching at the university level and she was teaching LD kids in an elementary school, something like this, I've never forgotten it:

"I don't teach the subject, I teach the child." That really stuck with me for some reason. I thought I was doing both, too, not with children but with older students. I guarantee you when I got thru it changed my entire approach to both.

But when is the last time you have heard a person speak of the moral imperative (or the ethical one?) Do you know what they are? Did McCourt introduce these here just to say they are impractical? Apparently he…or did he… did not take what's known as a "methods" course? How can you prepare a student teacher UNLESS you give him theory?

How can you prepare the teacher for all the different types of horror stories he will encounter?

It's really hard to pick just one topic, how about that very provocative and serious bit about Teaching is the downstairs maid of professions. Teachers are told to use the service door or go around the back." (page 4 bottom paragraph).

Maybe we might want to talk about that?

We are not writing these things in this book, McCourt is. He intrigues me by what he's doing, he's really doing a heck of a job with US isn't he? He's doing what he was told to do for students, but he's doing it to us, let's change this a little bit (page 52)

State your aim

Motivate the class (reader in this case)

Elicit and evoke: involve your readers in the material.

Excite them. You are to ask pivotal questions to encourage participation. In his case he's throwing out exciting, poignant, and pivotal things like a spinning sprinkler (moral imperative, ethical imperative, "Pathetic donkeys," life on the docks, angst with the church, the immigrants' struggle, poverty, and his own take: on life, on teaching, on dealing with those who can't "stop bothering" him…..he's …..I may be wrong, but I think HE is doing a job on US.

What do YOU think, that's more important? Clearing the heading here to see what Topics you would like to discuss here on Quasi Topic Thursday because when Thursday is over we'll launch Friday into Chapters 5-10, good stuff there.

An "oxter" for your thoughts, whatever that is, while I clear the decks in the heading here and read over your wonderful 61 pages of posts again over lunch. Be right back, MEANWHILE, what's a topic brought up in the book you'd like to address, or had a question over or maybe made you think that we've not discussed, we're about to leave the first 4 chapters??!!??

. . . in math class. I remember that as being true, but also remember it as a relief because I hated math. Even my dear patient father could not get the concepts of math into my head, although I adored geometry. For some reason I had no trouble with that.

On the other hand, as an adult I took a deductive logic class in which the teacher also did not call on females, or even look at the two of us who were in that class. I simply took advantage of it when he asked a question and no one came up with an answer, and gave the answer---politely barging in so to speak, and he had to listen. I not only participated in the class, did all the homework, but had an "A" on the final exam, but got a "B" as my final grade. My husband, who was also in the same class, hardly participated at all, never did the homewhork, had a "C" on the final exam, but he also got a "B" as his final grade.

If I had been taking that class towards a degree I would have challenged the final grade; but as it was, I didn't want to annoy the teacher or the husband, or damage their egos, so I kept quiet. But oddly enough, both of the these men often spoke about "women's rights" and truly felt they were enlightened males in that area. I knew better.

On that note, any female who gets through medical school---well, my hat is off to her, because I hear that sort of indirect discrimination in medical school is still very prevalent.

McCourt never actually addresses that problem that I recall, but I wonder what his attitudes were about females vs males, especially when the males were so tough and aggressive and loud.

An oxter - armpit. Carrying under the upperarm. Evidently used in foreign countries. There were two words in this book that I had to look up. Oxter was one and the other is driving me crazy because I can't remember what it was so I can look it up. I didn't look it up immediately. I'm hoping it will jump out at me when I come to it in the rereading! Senior moments are coming frequently!

SIERRAROSE, you are a saint of patience and forbearance. That grading was so blatantly biased I don't think I could have kept silent.

I found myself fascinated by FM's description of work on the docks. Who knew there was so much to be considered in simply hooking onto something to be loaded. Who knew a sack of beans or peppers could 'have a mind of its own'. There are skills and specialized knowledge in every occupation, aren't there.

And then, "The Code!". There always seems to be a code among groups of people, and newcomers simply have to learn or stay forever on the edge. The two great sins among the dockworkers: being a strikebreaker or letting an insult to your mother pass. The first could eventually be forgiven, but never the latter.

I'll bet there were 'codes' among teachers as well. Any volunteers among our teachers?

Babi

"If I could travel to my twenty-seventh year, my first teaching year, I'd take me out for a steak, a baked potato, a pint of stout. I'd give myself a good talking to. For Christ's sake, kid, straighten up."

I flagged that thought. There are a couple of years I would like to travel to in my life and I would take me out for an excellent dinner to the best restaurant I could find (which I never could have afforded then) and I would give myself a good talking to also.

Great ones, I'll put them in the heading too!

If there is a "Code," nobody told me, what about the rest of you who have taught?

Ella, what a fabulous thought, I must think on it, when would I take myself out to eat, why, and what would I tell self! Love it, let's all answer it.

I have heard that one very effective treatment for people who have been too hard on themselves when they were children is to take them down to a school with children of that age and say do you expect this child to have been able to have fought off that abuser (or whatever the problem was the child was blaming himself for) and then the adult says of course not and then realizes that they are being too hard on selves. That's a super statement, I want to think about mine and to study what comes into my head first!

But first let me say there I was, watching it come, nobody thought it would be anything, nothing on the news, nothing at all and WHAMMO, I had just written Marylin thank you for the definition of oxter, for heaven't sake, are you sure, that is SOOOO bizarre and WHAMMO, lightnighg struck in the front yard and everything I mean everything went off, I thought the poor heat pump at the other end of the house would never recover, it's been making noises like a chicken ever since.

WHEW!!!

Lost an entire post, just a multicolored huge thing!

Let me try again, having been off long enough to read chapters 5-10, and I see he's continuing being charming, this one will be a charming challenge to discuss!

Ann I meant to say way back there, you have a good point saying that you don't know what he intends for these kids we're hearing about with the sandwich. I think as I read it (both times) I got a little bit off the mark with the different schools and could not get them straight, I'm going to try to pay attention this third go round I hope to pay more attention to the school he is in. Thank you for that link to Penance and Reconciliation and the Confession. I agree McCourt is good at word painting!

Good point, Pedln opn this being not so much a book about teaching as it is hie experiences as a teacher. I've looked ahead and the next 5 chapters seem to be about him encountering this or that experience, this one is going to be interesting. I'm in awe of his ability to get us on his side hahahaa He's definitely got a rare quality here that's not easy to define.

Would I want to see his lesson plans? Heck yeah! Hahaha I really would.

This was good! What has come out is that he's really trying to understand these students, and inept as he might be right now, he's paving the way for genuine instruction.

Yes and that's well done in the book, too.

Oh the Reader's Guide, I remember that!!

Scrawler, I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, too. I have forgotten Jack Kerouac tho, was he the "beat poet?"

I never did understand the fuss over Hunter Thompson, poor man.

I remember the black leather jackets, and the D'A's too! Where did you go to school? It sounds like the North East?

Hahah Ella, I remember saying "WHEN will I use this? WHEN? hhhaah and some of the things I have never used. I have, for instance, only once been called upon to figure the old ladder leaning against the house thing, but algebra I have actually been called upon to use several times (too bad, that). hahaha

I am sorry to hear about your Latin teacher experience, that's one subject where a poor teacher can make or break the students because it's hard enough without a mean teacher. When my beloved Latin teacher (Miss Haas, all credit to you) retired and they made her leave in the middle of the year (those were the dark ages, the 50's) the one who took her place kept screaming at me NON AUDIO!! NON AUDIO!! In kind of a witch like cackle. mumble mumble mumble.

Our history teachers were SO dull, and so bad and of course I thought history was memorizing dates and battles, so when I got to college I had an awful time with it, never understood what was interesting about it. Roman history, however was and is fascinating.

Haah She hated you all equally? Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Boy what we have been thru!

Good point BellaMarie on what seems to be a duality of McCourt's attitude, he's accomplished and yet sometimes feels inferior, he's a hard one to pin down, I think. I did not read 'Tis, so I am at a disadvantage there.

Hahah Scootz, you are entitled to your soapbox. It would be interesting to see what would happen if all the teachers a young person encountered were McCourts. I expect they'd have a different take on learning (isn't that what that Montessori is about or do I have it totally messed up?) Maybe he should have gotten that PhD and taught at the college level? There he could do pretty much as he liked in each class, without needing to have taught a paragraph so the next year's teacher could teach footnoting. I think this is a worthy and integral part of any discussion on "teaching!"

Deems I am waiting for your thoughts on his pronouncements in the next section on "the college teacher." ahahaa

SierraRose, I think you are right on the nap thing! Oh good point on the different ways people learn, good point!

I can hear something, like a jingle, and repeat it pretty well years later, I am not sure why. My own head is a compendium of songs, commercials, snatches, jingles, (even to this day if somebody says to me, "take care," the first thing that flings into my head is "and buy Sinclair."

I'm an ad execs dream. Sometimes these jingles, like McCourt's stories and all of our memory, have undergone a change, but a writer writes what HE remembers, right?

However I did have a friend in college who would simply write things over and over and over, it was unreal, she would write something maybe 90 times again and again, fill up notebooks, it was very strange, but she HAD the material when she did. I always wondered if there might be something in that for me!

My penmanship being what it IS I doubt it. Ahahaa

Babi, oh good point on the jury duty, with me it was the opposite, I got chosen first and then in the deliberations room I timidly took my place at the head of the table. I would have preferred not to have done either, tho. Hahaa There must be something in that positioning.

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Deems thank you for that lovely interview of Frank McCourt! I will put that in the heading. Thank you for the comments on it, too, Ella, one of my questions was if any of his former students ever kept in touch with him, and that answers that, too.

Oh I agree Sierra Rose, we DID look SO old, I used to dislike, of all people, Annette Funicello (who is apparently one of the nicest person on earth) because she looked so OLD to me, in those beach blanket movies. Isn't that ridiculous? (I was actually jealous of her I think). But I have to tell you , even now, seeing her from a scene in the movie, she DOES look a lot older than she was. We all did with those beehive hairdos. Do you remember them? Boys had crew cuts or DA's depending on what school you went to and girls had spit curls and teased up beehives.

Good point Nancy on the different levels and positions of the teacher, you'd not stand behind a desk with the elementary kids, good point.

Oh Amparo what an interesting story of the old manuscript books and the teacher who singled you out, and the BORDERS!!

Jean, I did enjoy reading about your own experiences and good point on circles and student interaction! Interesting on the Humanities course and the 90 minutes! OH wow the would you like to go back in time question!!!!

Ellen, golly moses on the head pounding!!! I think that teachers were a bit more free with corporal punishment in those days, they certainly can't do that now, at least here. So you're from Cardiff! Love Cardiff, and Castel Coch! We have a Latin student here on SeniorNet who was originally from Wales and now lives in the UK. I hope things have changed there now.

Wow on the birching, you really caught it, bless your heart!

Gosh two of you now have mentioned teamwork team teaching or group work. GROUP WORK was the bane of my graduate years, and I hear from my youngest finishing his Masters in Structural Engineering, it's the bane of his, too. There is always ONE person always ONE who will not do their part correctly or well, and usually another ONE person who is late, messes it up, and you all have to sink or swim with that person. I truly see no point in group work!

!! So there! Hahahaa

I like collaboration but not for a grade. Haahaha

Ann I forgot to say I like your quote in your tagline (and the speaker) and thank you for the super link!

Scrawler, what an interesting article on David McCullough's efforts and "historical illiteracy," thank you!

Good point Marylin on how a teacher may be seen by one parent as awful and by another as great, that's happened to me, too. In fact one of the absolutely worse math teachers my children ever had won teacher of the year once. I thought she was a horror: just the worst!

Good point on would you like to be in his class versus would you like to be paying him to teach the kids!!! Might be a big difference.

Babi a good point (I do keep saying "good point, good point," but they ARE! ahahaha) on the explanations of teachers who know the material and who can't teach it. To this we need to add the somewhat recent phenomenon of the teacher whose English is not good enough to communicate what he's trying to teach. You hear some hilarious stories, especially in Engineering schools.

Scrawler, talking about Babi, says, " And therein lies the real difference between those who teach and those who teach well."

I think maybe there you have the difference in a teacher and one who is not? I think I agree with Jean, too, on this.

Carolyn, welcome again, what is SPELD? Is this school that Brooke attends one that the parents have to move into the zone to be in or can they request being in it?

Jean, this is a good point: believe he told stories to his students, i question whether they were as pervasive as they seem in the book - remember he had 30 years to tell all the stories that he is giving us in 4 chapters.

Sounds like a great class you offer concerning ER!

Carolyn, I think this is a good definition of a "good teacher," too: . A good teacher to me is one who can teach the plodders as well as the gifted student and give those who struggle the confidence to go on.

Marni, great points (there I go again, I need some other way to say good point!) haahaha on what FM's actions with the sandwich incident produced. I'd add another one: respect for the child's mother who made it AND the sandwich, that was what I got immediately out of it but you're RIGHT, that ended it. I had not thought of that.

Gosh, your typing teacher's experience sounds like one of my nightmares! (I do think, however, that every student, no matter on what track, needs to learn to type!) They use electronic tutors now in technical colleges, I like Mavis Beacon!

I was about as proud as you can be the day I taught myself to touch type with Mavis and it was after joining SeniorNet so I was WAY older than any high school student. In our school you did not take "business" courses if you were in the college bound track, what a mistake!

GOOD GRIEF, slashed top of car, BB guns? Holy smoke, no wonder you did not enjoy teaching, who on earth WOULD in that situation? Had they done that to FM I don't think even he could make an amusing story out of it! Having corresponded with you now in the Books for some time, I am absolutely certain it had nothing to do with YOU, tho!

And now Hats, you saw a fight, too! Wow. Not exactly what a person bargains for when they step in front of the class, are these stories?

Scrawler, I can see telling stories in an English class because English IS stories, but what if in a math class the teacher told stories?

What is missing here is any sort of time line or conclusion, so we don't know where he took that class. We know where he started but not where he ended and if they actually did learn about paragraphs.

In this section he's just beginning and frantically thinking of how to engage them. Naturally he has to engage them the best way HE can, but our next sections are quite interesting. We'll spend tomorrow on tying up any loose ends in the first Four Chapters and then on Friday gleefully move into his perceptions of theaching at a ....what kind of college was it, and what happened when he could NOT tell stories and the infamous PARENT-TEACHER CONFERENCE!!!! Bring YOUR memories, from both sides on Friday and let's discuss!!

The statistics alone in the first few paragraphs are staggering, but let's finish this up first!

Meanwhile what in the first Four Chapters have we not touched on you had a thought on OR take one in the heading and go for it!

" What is YOUR opinion on the position of the "teacher" in society?"

--- In the U.S.A. teaching is considered low on the totem pole, sort of like an all-around handyman, with very little respect. I'm not sure why that is, since in most other countries I have lived a teacher is considered socially in the same class as a doctor or the local priest, a person of knowledge. They don't necessarily get higher pay, but their social standing is rewarding in and of itself. It could be our materialistic society that values money and power more than anything else, or it could just be that a lot of people are just as educated as teachers are what with the college educations and free library systems and all the magazines and news media around. Knowledge is no longer an "elite" thing as it once was and still is in some countries.

"Teaching is the downstairs maid of professions. Teachers are told to use the service door or go around the back." (page 4 bottom paragraph). Do you agree with this? If you do not, why is it would you say that teachers are so poorly paid? (or are they?)"

--- The poor pay goes along with the attitudes I described above. Teaching and the knowledge they have is no longer special or elite. Therefore the pay is average. I don't think the pay is terribly poor---at least not of the teachers that I've known---but in the U.S.A. the wheeling and dealing of business is valued more highly, and therefore the compensation is higher. And that's too bad, because frankly, I think the education of our young is the most urgent need of a country, and to attract the brightest and the best one has to pay them accordingly. So it becomes a spiral; the less money there is the less it will attract the brightest, the less money there will be, and so on. Of course, there are always exceptions, and if someone is a good teacher, they will make more money giving seminars.

But I can tell you that doctors are so highly paid because they literally have life and death in their hands, and people know it. So even if a doctor is relatively incompetent, he still gets paid a lot of money, and they do run all the way from incompetent to brilliant, with most of them somewhere in the middle. I guess we, as a people, just consider health care more important than teaching and it shows up in what we are willing to pay for. The AMA has also been a powerful force in setting down a "fee" structure without having to go on strike. So have lawyers. Maybe it's time the teacher's union did the same sort of thing---certain fees for certain duties. PERIOD. Administrators are always whining about "not enough money" but I've been in school systems where there was almost NO MONEY, and the teaching was excellent. There was no waste in the way money was spent as there is in thousands of school systems in this country. The waste, in fact, and money spent on NON-necessities instead of teacher salaries, is incredible. It isn't the taxpayer not willing; it's the administrators who waste a lot and give themselves a lot of special perks while the teachers stand there with their hands out.

It could also be that traditionally teaching has been done by women. All professions that are primarily done by women, such as nursing and secretarial work, have lagged in pay.

But then, I guess that's the way life is. Generals get paid a whole lot while the soldiers who do the actual fighting on the line get zilch.

Still waiting for my book.. however I'm the kind of reader who reads the whole book and then goes back to the discussion chapters...one of the reasons below...

(I had a teacher in high school who spoilt Shakespeare or any other reading matterfor for me by analysing practically EVERY SENTENCE..ugh..I like to "go with the flow")

Some students thought she was the cat's pajamas..I thought she was a lousy teacher. who made reading a chore instead of the fun it is.

Shakespeare and poetry need to be read aloud just like music needs to be heard instead of looking at the squiggles on paper.

Colkot

I just found this discussion group today - but I have read most of the book a while ago and loved the first several chapters. I have read all three of his books, and also was quite disappointed in his character, after reading 'Tis. There are some things in one's life I feel should not be made public.

I have enjoyed reading about everyone's experiences with teachers. My childhood school days were spent in a rural two room school. I loved my first grade teacher - young, beautiful - I was heart-broken when she got married and moved away. The remaining three years I was taught by a different teacher each year. We had a cloak room in the rear of the classroom which was also the entry way - dark and cold. If one got out of line, that is where you were sent.

We had a pot belly stove in the center of the room which kept us warm - actually too warm if you sat next to it, and too cold if you sat far from it. We used to feign a toothache so we could place a warm hanky on our cheek to soothe it. Either the teacher was awfully dense or we were good actors. I guess we were bored with what was going on. We learned from the other children as their lessons were being taught.

When I was promoted to 5th grade, I had to climb the back stairs each day to the classroom on the upper floor. The teacher , Miss W. taught by instilling fear into us. She had a strap and a switch and used it on many occasions. I remember two boys were caught sending dirty notes and she wailed them until they rolled and writhed in pain. I was so upset, I left the room and headed for the outhouse just to get away from the trauma. Her eyes were on me all the way.

We lived next door to her and my mom and dad did not take her part over mine. My dad had had her for a teacher and knew what she was like. Was she a good teacher? A lot of people thought she was, because she was strict - but teaching through fear is not the way to teach.

The 8th grade students from the country schools had to pass a test before they could be accepted into the neighboring high school or 9th grade. It was an honor for the teacher who had the student with the highest score in the township so I was drilled and drilled so I would accomplish that for her.

I knew I wanted to be a teacher from the time I was in fourth grade. I loved school and loved learning new things. However, my piano teacher, Mrs. H. thought I would never make a good teacher. Words hurt, and you never forget them. What does playing a piece of music well have to do with becoming a good teacher? "You'll never become a teacher if you don't practice anymore than this!" Needless to say, that was the end of the piano lessons.

When I became an elementary teacher, I tried to make school fun for the students and still expected them to master the lessons being taught. We did memorize the times tables (Third grade without giving whacks! I gave stars on a chart!) and when all in the class did their homework we stood on our desks and shouted HALLELUJAH BANANAS! I told them if all would get their homework finished without any mistakes, I would do cartwheels down the center of the classroom. (I was 60 something when I was assigned 3rd. grade so I had to pick a proxy to accomplish that task for me!

We had a second grade teacher who used to kiss all her students on Valentine's Day. She would put on really dark lipstick and catch them unawares and plant one on their cheek when they least expected it! The kids loved her! So after she retired, and her husband was still there teaching 4th grade, I got the idea of doing that to him. So the girls put on the lipstick and headed for Mr. K's room and totally surprised him. Kissing a teacher? He loved it! (I would not try that today!) Sometimes I think you must act a little crazy to keep school from becoming a bore!

I used to tell my students stories also about my childhood - the silly or dumb things I did - it was relaxing for me and certainly got their attention. Of course high school kids should not be treated like 3rd. graders, but school can still be fun. I thoroughly enjoyed hearing Frank McCourt tell in his interview the story about the delicious balogna sandwich! I would have loved him for a teacher!

my father worked on the docks - loading coal into the holds of ships - he had a bent back and silicosis. I was the first member of my family to receive a high school education, we were from Irish and Welsh working class whose children had to work as soon as they could get jobs, Teachers may be looked down on by some people, but to us they were far above our station in life.

SierraRose, a wonderful post about the economics of teaching. Isn't the reason more men do not go into teaching at the Elementary or High School level because they can't support a family on a beginning teacher's salary? When you compare the entry level salaries of beginning high school teachers and say, engineers, or other professions you see quite a difference. Loved that post!

Colkot, we are interested in your thoughts on the flow of the book! I've never heard anybody parse Shakespeare, but he's not the easiest read either. Not to me, how about the rest of you?

I just saw an electric presentation from a gentleman at the University of Heidelberg at the University of PA, using what he called a colorimetric arrangement of Caesar, it was incredible. The arrangement of clauses in color made the whole instantly more understandable, and clear. Made them easy. For me that's what diagramming does, because English does have a structure whether or not we like to admit it.

Now let's talk about analyzing sentences, I know Deems hates diagramming, where do the rest of you stand on diagramming/ parsing, etc?

In other words some of you don't like "looking too closely" at anything and some do. Let's discuss why?

I don't think there's anything particularly...er....noble about either method...I think it's a matter of preference, let's discuss!

HO! Reader 49!! Welcome welcome Edith Anne! I am hoping to hit 50 and break all records and then each of you 50 must come in every day and say something different! Hahaha And challenging! Hahahaa (THAT IS, say your own thoughts).

I did not read 'Tis but apparently it has caused a lot of his fans to lose respect for him. Why? What does he SAY? I am unlikely to read it, having read Angela's Ashes and this one, so feel free to tell all, several have not liked it. We can hardly be "spoilers," it's been out forever.

Are you all seeing anything in this book which might do the same? Doth he protest too much here? Why DO you think he wrote it?

Edith Anne, again we hear more awful stories of corporal punishment. When WE were young, do you know the statistics of how many people actually HAD college educations? (or for that matter 20 years ago?) I am wondering idly if all this corporal punishment stemmed from somebody teaching who did not not know enough TO teach! I mean you'd be surprised, somebody look them up?

Thank you for those memories, the one room school, I also attended one briefly in Bucks County PA, I have no idea how the teacher ever taught anything, different levels and different abilities.

Ellen, you need to write a book! Seriously! Tell us more about your family and your own education, what made you be the first??!!?? What was your reaction (I meant to ask this yesterday) to the two incidents you described earlier? Did it instill in you a great desire to learn? Teachers in your area were respected, and I think...were they in our early days in the west? My mother was a first grade teacher when they boarded out with families, are any of you old enuogh to remember those days?

She was born in 1908, finished at UNC, and taught first grade in a notorious mill district in South Carolina. Her father had been a horse and buggy doctor in NC and so she thought , spying the extremely filthy children in her class, she'd do a lesson in hygene. She went out and bought them all bars of soap and toothbrushes, etc., and explained and sent them home, only to come in the next day to an irate mother, who said, "I send her to school for you to larn her, not to smell her."

Times have changed, haven't they? more...

I got up this morning thinking about this book generally. How WOULD you summarize your last 30 years in doing anything, much less teaching in the public eye??? And then write that down where the very people you did teach can see it? Try for a minute to summarize your last 30 years in what you did?

For instance we have been vineyardists, selling grapes, for 26 years. I was idly thinking what would come to me first, if I needed to write it, what stands out?

For instance definitely floating to the top are two very negative things. One happened right when we first started (because you don't forget those days) when I was working on a pasture fence nearby with one of the field hands and a truck zoomed by with men in it, took one contemptuous look at us peons and sailed right down into the field where they jumped out, began walking about filling their pockets with grapes, it was quite a confrontation: they first told me that the previous owner who had been dead for 2 years had let them have all they wanted free. They then told me that (pockets and cheeks bulging with grapes) that "these little things," holding them out, weren't worth having. It was quite an experience.

Then I recall the day I had a whole field of pickers out there at dawn to pick what was described as huge truck loads of grapes and when the trucks came, the customers wanted the grapes put in huge drums. It was hot and we picked the premium grapes, half of the pickers did not show and it was really hard work. I did not know any better but the minute one drum would seem to fill up, (yay!) and we'd start on the next, you'd come back and the first one would be ¼ full. I could not figure out what was happening till I caught one of the guys with a circular board pressing it right there in the field. Crazy things happen, people are rude and stupid, and they're what stand out at first. I'd like to see either happen today. But when you look back on it, it's YOUR own perceptions of what happened, somebody else standing there might have said something different. Especially about such things as picking tractor trailer loads of grapes on a Saturday, we did that too.

But these things would not be the romantic ideas or ideals the public would want, and they would not reflect positively on the public, and I am not in the business of inspiring young people. Mc Court is.

I am forming my own opinion about the book and McCourt. I am interested to watch when he brings in the "shoulds." … Sort of begins I know I should, here's what they said I should but here's what happened. When a teacher of 30 years stands up and says here's what works and here's what does not, everybody has to listen. How can he write about these children by name? He'd have to have their permissions or he'd have to be combining real episodes or children into many? I am not sure how that works.

Things I've learned so far in the first 4 chapters:

I did not know McCourt taught school!!! I thought he was a famous author living off fame and royalties, so this is quite interesting to me. I did not know he wrote Angela's Ashes when he was in his 60's to start with, and he says people ask where my sequels were, I was teaching school. So how, then, did he write Angela's Ashes?

People want to hear the sequels, he's a Pulitzer Prize winning author and he, with his stories and memories, makes things that others might never know come alive. What he DID for 30 years was to teach so I am thinking this is a continuation and is more about him, than it is teaching, and those of you who expressed that are right.

I think when we get into tomorrow's section we can see that more clearly and that some of his…inconsistencies will show up more clearly, I have a major question about something early on I hope some of you can explain.

Meanwhile, turn the page into chapter 5, and look at the stats as to how many people one teacher reaches! Now compare that to the number of people YOU have felt in YOUR life, all those teachers, whom YOU felt deserved the term "teacher." How many ARE there? If you had to make your own list, how many are there?

I am thinking of one that children cried when they heard she would be their teacher, she was not mean nor cruel but very very hard. This was back in the late 50's when Latin was required, and she was a Latin teacher of the old school. I was her practice teacher, the kids were scared to death. There were no hi jinks in the room. The work consisted of doing exercises in 5's, lots of written work. I found her hilarious, always throwing out humor, the kids did not get it. My practice teaching paper was on a Latin II student with an IQ of 79 who made high C's. C+ always on the border of a B, wonderful child and I did so want him to get a higher grade. Can you imagine? And I was so naïve that I wrote that I thought if he applied himself (he was a very cheerful child) he would do better. Er….earth to ginny.

Now for charm and entertainment, that teacher would be on nobody's list (but mine). But for the ability to teach the subject, she'd have to be in the top level, she would have to take her place near the top. So….. so…what are we saying?

What is it that matters, then? Teaching the subject well or entertaining? Can all teach? When did teaching turn into the Entertainment Business?

And then you read Edith Anne's thoughts and you think well yes learning should be fun and enjoyable. Does it matter what grade level we're talking about? Is there a middle road between beatings and Oscar the Grouch?

I really like, in this book and discussion, the combination of McCourt's fey personality and the creative things he does and the reality issues, and the serious topics looming underneath. It's like watching Mr. Charm floating on a sea of sharks. I have a feeling he goes thru life the same way he's gone thru the classroom: he is who he is, and at the end, we'll need to say what we think.

For now, what strikes you about the first four chapters? This is our last day to hone in on them, let's not miss a thing.

Ginny asked- In other words some of you don't like "looking too closely" at anything and some do

I once heard a joke about the impracticality of knowing how do diagram sentences. The comic said , "When would you ever use this? It's not as though at our next cocktail party I'd be liable to say "Ok everyone, while Carol makes the drinks, let's all diagram some sentences!'"

I never had to teach diagramming at the level I taught. But I do think that a basic knowledge of parts of speech and how to form complete sentences is something that should be taught. Our language is becoming so slang and bastardized. I read authors like say, Trollope and Eliot and just admire the beauty of the English langauage as it once was.

As to whether I like to examine things- depends- some things I do and some I don't.

"What is it that matters, then? Teaching the subject well or entertaining? Can all teach? When did teaching turn into the Entertainment Business?"

I think TV has changed the way teachers need to teach to keep the children attentive. Sesame Street, with all of its colorful puppetry and music was just wonderful for the pre-schoolers, but classroom teachers cannot compete with all of that stimulation. You almost have to put on a show to motivate them and keep them interested.

"....again we hear more awful stories of corporal punishment. When WE were young, do you know the statistics of how many people actually HAD college educations? (or for that matter 20 years ago?) I am wondering idly if all this corporal punishment stemmed from somebody teaching who did not know enough TO teach! I mean you'd be surprised, somebody look them up?"

I do know that Miss W. did not have a formal college education -she was trained in some sort of institute for teacher's - back in the '20's when those things were allowed. Also a lot of teachers had a two year education from State Normal Schools which have now evolved into State Universities. I attended Kutztown State Teacher's College, (4 years) which had formerly been Kutztown Normal School (2 years) and is now Kutztown University. Teachers were not allowed to marry, so there were a lot of "old maid" teachers.

It was this: "1. (I had a teacher in high school who spoilt Shakespeare or any other reading matterfor for me by analysing practically EVERY SENTENCE..ugh..I like to "go with the flow")

2. Shakespeare and poetry need to be read aloud just like music needs to be heard instead of looking at the squiggles on paper."

I agree with both of those thoughts. I also like a broad overview of any book I read, the general drift of what the author is trying to say, and if it seems worthwhile to me I will go back and read the book more slowly and try to analyze various details that strike me---but not all. One can overanalyze a book or a piece of art. The author's intentions are often personal and obscure, but the reader is free to make what he/she wants of it to a certain extent, depending on his/her own exerpiences. But with me it's more a general feeling, sort of like looking at the landscape instead of individual trees, although there are occasions when I might like looking at the individual tree or even just a single branch of it. Not every landscape is worth spending time with, however. And some landscapes only deserve a quick glance and nothing more.

And yes, I've found that reading Shakespeare leaves me puzzled and frustrated; whereas when I've seen a play on stage or even in film and actually heard the words along with watching the action, it all comes together in an understandable manner that's like an "Aha" experience, just like a pice of classical music when one hears it. There is structure, repetition, codas, movements, and the finale, and in Shakespeare they are all incredibly beautiful, just like with Mozart's music.

. . . that is the influence TV has had on children. It is one thing for an adult who was brought up without TV to be watching it now, even though it has great influence then too; but to subject small children to TV watching is, I think, almost without redeeming value. The constant "entertainment" and the quick change of view depending on what the camera shows, has turned their attention spans to almost nothing. So not only do teachers have to turn into actors, but they have to use surprise to even get their attention in the first place and have to contort themselves to hold it. When TV first appeared on the scene we had no idea of the profound influence it would have, especially on our children.

Personally I think TV has much to do with ADHD, the restlessness when not being entertained (this is true even of most adults I know), the attention span of gnats, and the smart-mouthed kids it portrays. Add to that the materialism it inculcates in children's minds, and I'm so glad we got rid of TV when my children were still in grade school. They complained bitterly at the time, because they had no idea what the Fonz was doing when he was the discussion in school the next day; but neither of them are now heavy TV watchers because they developed more interesting things to DO and live life fully on their own terms, instead of being SPECTATORS of second-hand life through someone else's eyes.

Seems to me almost everything on TV is superficial, including the news, and there's no way to stop the sound and look up the numbers that are being thrown out to see if they are real of phony. TV feeds us a lot of junk, unthruths, half truths, happy endings, pretty houses, beautiful people---when reality is not like that at all. Heck, I remember people used to have dandruff, and we had clothes brushes for that; and crooked teeth; and there were germs everywhere, even in kitchens----and somehow we managed and even managed to still be kind to each other.

OK, I'll get off my soap box, but I HATE TV and have not had one in the house for some 30 years and am always, always, always shocked when I go somewhere and the TV is on at how degrading to the mind it really is.

Ginny, I think that wherever you have to illustrate something in order for students to understand the concept behind what you are trying to say storytelling would be appropriate. So, yes, I think a good story in Math would have been all right.

Jack Kerouac and William S. Burroughs were both beat poets. I first started reading them in my freshman year (1959). I just preferred what they said over the various "dead" poets that we were exposed to in the classroom.

One of the reasons that I like to read Frank McCourt is for his storytelling ability, but do I really believe them? The answer to that is that I think in most memoirs they are told from "selected" memories. These selected memories may or may not be true, but I do believe that as in all fiction there is a grain of truth in them. Does he embellish them? Probably, but don't we all. If you listen to a group of veterans talking about a war for example, you'd probably get the impression that they and they "alone" fought the war and saved us all. So in a sense what McCourt is telling are "his" version of war stories.

If you could go back in time and take yourself out to dinner, what would be that time, occasion, and dinner and what would you say to yourself?

Alas, I must respectfully decline to answer that question. Good breeding forbids. ...Babi

Ginny ~
You asked if any of us could summarized what we'd done for the last 30 years, and spoke about your vineyard experiences. Those were indeed startling stories about men who were bullies taking advantage of your
new vineyard venture.
But some of us have not done any one job or had only one career for that many years. I have jumped from one job to another, but few of the stories I could tell tie to this discussion. And I've been lucky, as only one boss of many was a mean bully, who treated me badly.

Regarding preparing a new teacher for horrors he might encounter, I don't think any manual or set of rules would ever be adequate. I think FM's stories illustrate the best way to handle a classroom of disinterested kids: just talk to them and let the lessons flow from the conversation. The administrators who undervalued FM were the idiots in the room.

Last night my youngest son called in. He was adopted at age 7 and when he came to me he could not read and did not want to learn to read. I taught him to read phonetically with the Ladybird learn to read series of books. Now he is working with his eldest son aged 8 who can read but does not want to read anything but non fiction. My son bought a series of books which are much like a Harry Potter type plot. He said that he was trying to teach his son to see the plot in his mind as he read the books to him. They are up to book three in the series and on the weekend his son finally got it. He looked up at his dad with his eyes shining and said "Dad - its just like a movie!" My son said that his block with wanting to read recreationally was that at first he could not read and visualise at the same time. He thought Josh may have been the same. I think this is one thing a teacher can look at by making sure the material they read to their class is exciting and relevant to the times. My son believes that fostering of visualisation is the key to giving a child a love of reading.

Carolyn

Carolyn (Kiwi lady). Just came back from visiting your beautiful country. Could I ask what the words mean under your log in? I'm assuming it is Maori. Thanks.

My name is Mary and I am from Seattle. I am brand new to the group. I have read the first 5 chapters. My husband was a high school teacher for 30 years here. In my College career, I was taught a lot about moral imparatives and ethics. I was lucky enough to attend a Jesuit University where they endeavor to guide the students to live their lives in this way; being moral in their own lives and ethical in their lives and in their dealings with the larger community and the world. I believe Teachers are one of the most important groups in any society. Yes, I feel being a strikebreaker is wrong. I have learned much about all the things people in unions or working to get unions have gained for the workers in many countries.

I've been thinking a lot about the question of "Do teachers have a code?". When entering any already-formed group of people, the newcomer has to discern the positions of those already there so as not to disturb it. What is the heirarchy? Who sits where in the teachers' lounge. Who is the "favorite" of the principal. But as far as teaching went, when I was the rookie, many of my fellow teachers helped me out with teaching suggestions, warnings about certain students, where to find supplies, etc.

Nancy

Marylin - The greeting below my name is "Have a good day" in Maori. Did you get snowed in while you were here? Recently there has been abnormally heavy snowfalls in the South Island.

Carolyn

Edith Anne: I just loved your stories about your early school years and your teaching experiences. Your students must have just loved you!

Ginny: That must have been a frightening experience when those guys came and took the grapes. Yikes.

This discussion has me thinking about my teaching years - some good things, some bad memories. I just remembered something funny that happened. I had been teaching for awhile and had a student teacher with me for some weeks learning the ropes. It got to the day where she was going to be on her own as the teacher for the first time. I went down to talk to my dept. chairman during her class, one story directly below her classroom. I happened to look out the window and saw a chair sail past. She had lost control of the class and some boys were throwing chairs out the window! I went tearing upstairs to help her out.

That incident made me realize I had learned a lot and could control a bunch of rowdy high school boys. That's something that has been with me every since. I can get control of a group and keep control while conducting a class. Not everybody can do that.

I think FM tells us what he is writing about in chpt 1 when he says, "I learned through trial and error and paid a price for it. I had to find my own way of being a man and a teacher and that is what I struggled with for thirty years in and out of the classrooms of New York. My students didn't know there was a man up there escaping a cocoon of Irish history and Catholicism, leaving bits of that cocoon everyhere."

I love the way he says right after the above paragraph "My life saved my life." His stories of his life saved him in the classroom as he learned the ropes of teaching. His stories elicited questions and thoughts from his students, who were often tired and bored, and got them thinking and learning and writing. FM was 27 when he started teaching. He had had a wealth of experience to draw upon when he started teaching - his rough sad life in Ireland and wrenching poverty, his strict religious upbringing, his work experiences, the army, his friends and relationships, his loves, his education and knowledge and love of literature. Mea culpa.

When he tells his stories to his class, he drifts back and forth from the past to the classroom.

FM was always the "crazy mick" rebel when he taught. He did his own thing. In some places this was acceptable and in some places it was not.

One of my favorite things about FM's books is how he writes like he is thinking or speaking - natural. And such personal experiences that he shares. I think he seems very honest in his writing.

Well a bright good morning to you all this morning and WHOOP! What's this I see, Seattle has joined us! Welcome, welcome Seattle, (Mary!)!!! So glad you got in and we only lack one more person to make 50 which has to be an all time record, amazing and it's JULY!

Whooo will it be? I almost want to run out and grab somebody today in the movie (am going to see Pirates of the Caribbean II), and say you must join us!

SO that means we'll look forward to 50 new comments every day, hahaaa

Today we move on to Chapters 5-10 and there's MUCH here to talk about!!!

State your own thoughts, choose one in the new heading going up and hang ONNNN!!

Scootz, a good point about how the language is disintegrating, many people blame the computer and email, do you think that's a valid charge? Do you think all these acronyms (TTYL and IMHO) help or hurt? I personally (stand back, predjudice approaching) hate them and hate emoticons, too

Edith Anne, I agree with you , and don't the stats show that for every hour a child watches TV (I am forgetting the horrid outcome)….it seems that children spend a lot of time watching TV, I have some startling stats about education in America to come in the next post, too. After hearing all these stories about corporal punishment (and more to come) I think perhaps the "Methods" courses were NOT actually a bad thing!

A beautiful post on analysis of literature, SierraRose. I love Shakespeare but often when attending one of the plays I find I can't understand a word of it, unless I have read it and tried to study it first and I doubt too many others can, either, unless they are familiar with it. When you add to the strangeness of the language to our 2006 ears and then the….inventiveness of some of the performances both here and in England, I am not sure that the audience gets a whole lot more out of it than knowing when the characters are happy or sad. Maybe it's the accents, I don't.

And even then I recall a Field Trip to Princeton in my high school years to see Hamlet. Those sitting on the first row noticed they were being spit upon by the actors' enunciating and THAT, unfortunately, is the memory of that glorious day to me, other than having attended a play at Princeton as a high schooler. Pearls before swine, we could discuss that, too, I guess.

I liked your post on TV too. It was very strange to hear my grown son say he disliked Sesame Street recently when as a child he loved it, but Mr. Rogers best. Dear quiet Mr. Rogers, my kids loved him.

Scrawler, good point on the selectiveness of memory and memoirs. I think you are right, he's telling his own stories and as you say several people at one incident have several takes on what happened.

Babi

Mippy, good point on the longevity of professions, and note that he did not stay at the SAME job but actually moved about quite a bit, so it was not 30 years at the same school. I remember upon taking the NTE (National Teacher's Exam) and being told, "just take the child's point of view, nobody has ever failed it from this university," and so it was.

Kiwi, what a super story about a child's learning to read, thank you for that!

Mary what a joy to hear somebody talking about moral and ethical imperatives. I found a huge site on Kant's categorical imperatives and have marked it to read later, maybe later we might discuss the difference in imperatives (what must be done) and what drives them, welcome welcome welcome! Moral imperatives are tougher than ethical imperatives, to me. The latter are easy, and driven by society: don't steal, don't cheat, don't rob a bank. The former are more delicate and known only to the person involved (and these are different from categorical imperatives, and all the others). But some people see moral imperatives differently, I once read an entire essay on the different permutations of THEM, too.

To ME (and this may be a huge corruption of the two terms) one of many examples of a moral imperative might be what happens when you're doing something and somebody in the group does something that is wrong, say takes the credit for something they have not done (these are minor things but a good example of the Moral Imperative on the Fringe), and then the burden is on YOU not to reveal it, not to expose them and to somehow go forward burdened with that knowledge. Your moral imperative will eat at you, demanding to be satisfied, but immoral, you might say, if done: so it's truth versus...it's maddening and almost constant.

Good points on the Unions, too, the AFT made a plunge here into the South when I was teaching, which is traditionally a non union shop (is that what they call them?) trying to get better wages or whatnot. They did not get far in our area.

Aberlaine, I've been thinking about that, too. I don't remember any sort of code except that I was told when it's raining (funny that rain plays a part in this section) the teacher should wear red or something quite bright, this was firmly told to me, and I don't remember who said it, funny thing, I've done it the rest of my life. Bright clothes on rainy days. Go figure! Hahahaa

Marni, a chair went sailing past? Good grief, sounds to me from your revealed experiences (BB guns, slashes, chairs) that you were teaching in a war zone!

GOOD point on McCourt's writing in a conversational tone, he does that! I wonder how much editing he needs, himself.

Great points and this morning we're poised to enter chapters 5-10 where we'll find all sorts of great new experiences such as the FIELD TRIP (from Hell it sounds like, to me), bringing back all KINDS of memories here, but I need to get all this up and hear yours, first!!

THIS section is full of stuff, let's hear from each of you on your own thoughts on it, choose something in the heading to spark your thoughts or just bring in something new you want to talk about, what struck YOU?

Let's look at some of the points, and I'll put them in the heading today, too: he hits all the highs and lows of teaching in this section, doesn't he?

1. Open School Day, the Parent-Teacher Open House: (or "That's what you wanna teach, Mr. McCurd.")

Do you agree or disagree with the parent who questioned the teaching of the spelling of words like usufruct and condign to a child who is going to be a plumber?

"See?" she said. "That's what I mean. I ask you a simple question an' you give me the story of your life. That's what you wanna watch, Mr. McCurd. These kinds don't need to know the life story of every teacher in the school."

Do you agree or disagree with this parent? Why is he deliberately dropping the d in recreating her speech and showing she is mispronouncing his name?

What good are the Open House type of parent-teacher conferences? Have you ever taken part in one from either side? Why are they scheduled?

2. In this section McCourt gives several instances of how he reached the children but these are leavened with instances where he did not, and his own failures. Why do you think he included so many failures? He's the author and he had 30 years of memories to choose from, what effect does including his failures as a teacher have on the reader? What so far has been, in your opinion, his greatest success and his greatest failure with the students?

3. What, in your opinion, was the most clever and innovative thing he did in these 5 chapters? What was the least effective in your opinion? This answer may not be the same as that in #2.

4. What did you make of Kevin Dunne in Chapter 7? Every school seems to have a "Kevin Dunne," why do you think McCourt included his story?

5. Have you heard of or read Edward Dahlberg? What is your opinion of him from the way McCourt describes him? Is this characterization the way you think of "Literary Lights?" Why do you suppose this episode is in the book? Have you ever met a famous celebrity socially? If so what was he or she like?

6. What does the sub title of Part II, "Donkey on a Thistle," mean? (page 111).

7. " Their research papers turned out to be an ecstasy of plagiarism." (page 120). Plagiarism is in all the news lately. You'd think with the advent of the internet it would lessen but it seems to be growing. Are people just getting caught more, now in the Information Age? What do you think is the reason people can't seem to give the credit for words and ideas to others who said them first?

8. Which of the several stories in this book so far is the most memorable?

9. What struck you the most in this section?

I'm going to start my own thoughts on this section today with a quiet little plea for diagramming. I know a lot of you don't like it but I think it would have solved a lot of McCourt's problems instantly.

All language teachers are familiar with the following scenario:

" SO," the language teacher happily explains, "THIS will make everything crystal clear!!! THIS, you see is the Indirect Object, and THAT'S the Direct Object and THAT is the Object of the Preposition!!"

Triumphantly waiting for the cheers, and anxious to watch the light bulbs dawning all over the room, the teacher misses the anxious sideways looks and puzzled expressions, from students who have never heard these terms. They are in a fine University but they have not heard these terms, so the explanation not only does not enlight, it further confuses the learner! . The teacher might as well have been triumphantly explaining,"THIS you see is the usufructflex and THAT'S the colueranutt, now you know! SEE??!!?? Is that not great?"

I remember when diagramming went out, we were all called, all the state high school English teachers, into massive meetings to hear the newest thing, whatever it was at the time, this was in the 60's. The presenter was a pistol from NYC, and apparently wrote the series, LOOK LOOK he shouted: "It happened Monday, or he came the day before yesterday or she has gone home. There is no way in traditional grammar in which to identify "Monday" or "yesterday" or "home," but NOW there is!!!" There was NO grammatical term for Monday!!!

----er..... "Adverbial Objective" I said. Murmurs broke out. What? He said (this auditorium held…several hundred people but he heard the sounds and realized the audience was not in sinc with him).

----- Adverbial Objective I said timidly, (from the old Latin Ablatives of Time When, and Place Where). WHAT? he said turning in our direction. Some of the older teachers who knew grammar took it up, and it resounded over the room ADVERBIAL OBJECTIVE!

Oh, WHAT? said he. Well that's a rare exception, it's much easier this way, and on he went.

It's not easier his way. I wish I could remember the name of his short lived genius program, which depended on the structure of how the language is presented by each speaker. Now nobody knows what an Indirect Object is, thanks to him and his ilk…what WAS that type of grammar called, much less an Adverbial Objective nor how to diagram them. What's the harm?

I'm going to write a small Apologia for Diagramming here. If you hate diagramming, hear me out, clutching the desk with gritted teeth? (or gritting your teeth ON the desk? hahaha) To me it's the quickest way to understand grammar. For instance what IF McCourt had simply written this:

There you can see clearly (and yes you'd have to take 10 seconds to explain it but you could use a cute story depending on the audience, groceries on the shelf or gears in a car or whatever) once it's explained the subject the verb and what's hanging off and not as important. Then the question raised by Ron on page 79 (and thank God for Ron, huh?) I truly think it would have outlined it more clearly.

Do you think that all those future mechanics, bricklayers, and plumbers would have understood that language has a structure, too?

He himself however admits that "could they possibly know that 'John went to the store' is as far as I can go in grammar?"

That's cute, but I doubt it sincerely, this is another one of those little exaggerations for humility's sake I am thinking he makes.

I love diagramming. It's as good a mental exercise as Sudoku or any kind of puzzle, because it's more challenging. And as you go on you get better and better at it, and at the end, (I guess this might be the Calculus of Diagramming), it turns out Shakespeare himself has uttered some of the toughest sentences! Here from a super book on diagramming (Descriptive English Grammar 2nd Edition. House and Harmon) is one of his and an explanation: :

"When I said that I would die a bachelor, I did not think I should live till I were married" (Shakespeare)

Shakespeare diagrammed Cute, huh? This is now above my level as is the one below but at one time I sure did know these like the back of my hand. (But even now as a result, I am sure everything has a place and feel confident about my ability to find it if I try: that's NOT the feeling kids have today.) I would love to revisit these again, we've talked for years about trying something like this in a discussion, I'd love it.

OH and here's a beaut, just have to put this in by Oliver Wendell Holmes:

Poetry can be diagrammed, too and the book has a ton of them waiting to be solved too!

Back when I was up on this stuff I could do them all day, they are SO fun and such fun arguments you can get in over them.

If those are not your cup of tea, just pat those of us on the head who like to do them, as you would a Sudoku addict or a crossword puzzle fan. Hahahaa

So there is more than one way to skin a cat. Playing with the language is great but I don't think I agree with McCourt on page 80. He seems to think he did a major breakthrough, I think he's wrong, I think Ron introduced the major breakthrough, not him, and I think his talk of the order of a sentence versus gibberish misses the mark. A lot. What do you think?

Ron did that one.

Oh and I looked it up and it appears that the college degree is quite a rarity actually and has been held by a very small percentage of the population all along and that INCLUDES as Edith Anne mentions, teachers. Here from the 2003 Census are some somewhat startling facts. I believe in fact that many "teachers" in the "old days," were in fact nothing of the kind!!! That might account for a LOT of the corporal punishment we are seeing, and many of us have shared in.

Take a look at this chart:

They further say that "in 2003, 27 percent of adults age 25 and over had a college degree, another record"

It's a record, look at what it was when we were children! THAT right there, to me explains a lot of this corporal punishment! Now educational attainment does not matter unless you have people "teaching" who have no business doing so, right?

But then again, how do you explain declining standards in reading and education? Have you ever SEEN a McGuffey's reader? What's going ON??

As the rates for the education of teachers rises, so should the literacy levels of our children but they aren't? Are they? What's going ON??

I think I also want to ask if you agree or disagree with the parent who said "usufruct" was not a useful word to teach a child who is going to be a plumber? A child who will use a handkerchief and needs to know how to spell it but probably will not use usufruct his entire life? I think she has a point, what explanation could you or would you give? Why is he deliberatly misspelling her pronunciation of an' (it's hard to hear that d on the end of that word for anybody? Try it yourself) and McCurd? I don't think that's an accident.

I just remembered the Code we used to use when our County Superintendent came to oberve us. Whoever caught sight of him first started to pass a child's reading primer around from classroom to classroom. The name of the primer? There are friends Among Us!

I think sometimes parents see their children as a mirror of themselves. If none of the family have gone pass high school, that becomes the set pattern for a family. In other words, don't rock the boat. Give the child only what she or he might need to be useful to society. Usefulness is defined by the family.

This is not the way life operates. Succeeding generations don't always follow the pattern of pass aunts and uncles. Therefore, I feel teachers should not lower the standard of education to the views of what parents might feel is good for their child. How many parents throughout history have fought against the idea that their child might become an artist or poet?

The word "usufruct" took me by surprise too. I am not familiar with the word. In that classroom, I bet, there might have been one or more children very excited to learn the spelling and definition of the word. A teacher won't catch all the flies. He will catch some of the flies. For this reason, parents do not have the right to choose the curricula.

Wow, Ginny, what a lot of questions you have for us to attempt to answer or not! Hahahaaaaa

I haven't had the time to look at the next 4 chapters, but I did want to know, before we go further, what "moral imperatives" are, please enlighten me.

I have so many good books tempting me - my haul from the Library this week produced such good ones - but I will get back to FM. I loved the book, still do.

I didn't read Angela's Ashes, I was afraid it would be too sad; I did read a few pages of TIS but it didn't spark any interest. As I remember I was provoked at the vulgarity of it

Now what shall I put off again - dusting, sweeping, changing the bed - No, no, no! I will do laundry and then it is running around this afternoon. I'll find the time for FM somewhere, truly, I will.

I've read Chapter Five and laughed all the way through it again! FM must have written this to be entertaining, don't you think? Did the antics in the classroom truly happen the way he described them? It doesn't matter, I love the reading of it and, somehow, to tear it apart takes away from the entertainment I think. Maybe not!

Do you need to diagram sentences in an auto shop? I agree with the students (shameful?) and will go on record that I don't think so - I have never had the occasion to diagram a sentence since high school (perhaps only English teachers have had to or seen the necessity?-haha Ginny?) Tell me why one needs to? I have remembered verbs, subjects, adverbs - that's it!!!!

To the store John went.
Went John to the store
John to the store went
Store the to went John

Hahahaaa! Gibberish! John went to the store to steal a grammar book! And ended in Sing Sing where he got a Dear John letter from Rose and came out a college professor from all he learned in prison.

If you can teach grammar (at the same time teaching spelling, vocabulary, psychology) in a vocational high school you can teach anything anywhere. I would say FM did a good job of it.

Did FM mean to be sarcastic or patronizing in using the vernacular to describe the language of the parents? Did Mark Twain (SC) do the same in Huck Finn? I don't think so. Don't we all enjoy hearing a different dialect when we travel; if so, why can't we read it?

Parent-teacher nights, are they valuable? Oh, yes, a word here and there to the parent, an explanation of why Johnnie can't read as well as others; all clues should be valuable to a teacher, a parent don't you think?

"Mr. McCurd, these kids don't need to know the life story of every teacher in the school. I went to the nuns. They wouldn't give you the time of day."

Doesn't she have a point? Today the kids coming out of Catholic high schools have been disciplined, they have learned, they are ready for challenges.

FM is being sarcastic here of Catholic schooling by putting down this mother and her usuage of his name, possibly because he has not recovered from his own Catholic upbringing and may never, as he says.

Enough! You'll not want me to read any more if I carry on like this!!!

I rarely laugh in reading books! FM is delightful in this book, I laughed and enjoyed it the second time.

One more instance: My daughter's favorite teacher took advantage of a rainy, stormy day by turning out all the lights in the classroom, lighting a candle and reading a frightening story. The kids loved it, loved him, his teaching methods which were similar to FM's.

A creative mind and imagination in the classroom and the teaching profession may not be as grim as some suppose it to be.

I think we need to remember the reason one teaches and the reason one is taught. Why do we go to school in the first place? To learn certainly would be the first answer. But what should one learn and why? Now in there lies the rub.

If we are going to school in order to learn to get a job than I think what we learn at school will be different from those we are going to continue their education by going to college.

I think we need to ask ourselves what kind of education does a student need in order to find a good job and put food on the table. Your answers to these basic questions would be that they need first of all practical knowlege such as adding and subtracting in order balance a checkbook and specific knowledge in order to do a specific job such as a plumber or mechanic.

I don't think it is necessary to teach a grammar unless the student well be doing a specific job such as a writer or journalist for example. To me the best way to learn grammer is to read "The Elements of Style" by William Strunk and E.B. White.

But once you have mastered the specific knowledge in your field. I don't think it does any harm to have as broad an education as time allows. But much of this information can be self-taught especially in today's Internet world. As long as you are interested in obtaining knowledge you will continue to search for it by any means. But a student should be interested in the subject.

One other thing I think is important. When I was in high school we had problems relating to "old, dead" poets and writers. We wanted to know about the problems and the writers that existed in our own time. We lived very much in the present (1960s). I can't be sure but my guess is that the students of today probably feel about the same - they are not interested in either past or the future. They live for today!

This is a round about way of saying I agree with the parent who questioned McCourt about why the student had to learn grammer.

I've gotten along pretty well throughout life without knowing what that word meant. It seems pretty impractical to me to have this in the average person's vocabulary. What in the heck does it mean? Was this some administrator having a spasm when he/she came up with that word?

In European countries the educational system is a bit different. Children are separated in the fourth grade, into those who go on to higher education and those who go into apprenticeships. By that time it is assumed they have shown abilities in certain areas. They all finish a good general education through the eighth grade, and then they are separated. Those who are considered the brightest go on to high school. Those who do not want to go to high school or are not capable go on to apprenticeships which have nothing to do with school. My father went through an apprenticeship to become a tool and die maker. It took years for him to become a master tool and die maker, and when we came to the U.S.A. he had the choice of jobs because of the excellent reputation German tool and die makers had.

But, in our modern world where many of the blue collar jobs have left the country, and things are constantly in flux, I do believe children need a really good basic general education in which they learn to be creative and adaptable, since the changes are so rapid that we have no idea what tomorrow brings, unlike generations ago when someone learned a job and kept it pretty much through a lifetime. I think we are sorely lacking in that basic good general education, and trying to push everyone on to college when some kids have no ability to go to college or just plain don't want to.

I believe by the time they get out of high school children ought to have a well rounded knowledge of the world and their place in it, have logic ability so they can think themselves out of any situation that might come up, and have learned how to be creative problem solvers---none of which is really happening, and we will pay a high price for that in a VERY competitive world.

From the posts I gather we are generally agreed that putting a word like usufruct on the spelling list doesn't make much sense. There are a multitude of words that would be more useful, whether tech student or gen. ed. student. For those few who might be delighted with an unusual word...like me...we will no doubt find enough to keep us happy in a lifetime of solving crossword puzzles.

What did you think about the quieting effects of rain on a classroom? How it would 'mute' everything? I had to stop and think, and consider how I felt when it was raining. Don't most of us think of 'curl up with a good book' on rainy days?

Of course, continued rain for days becomes depressing, an extenuation of the initial calming effect. But for a day...think of the benefits to the teacher of a normally hyper class of teens. IMO, McCourt displayed excellent sensitivity in adapting his lesson to the mood of the rainy day.

Babi

Usufruct is the legal right to use and derive profit from property that belongs to another person, as long as the property is not damaged.

H ow many of us needed to know that??? And how often would we use it?? Tee hee!

Ann, thanks for the definition. I just feel education is more than just what we need or don't need. Most definitely that is the job of education to prepare us in a practical way.

The other job of education is to open the mind to new thoughts or ideas. Education must leave a mind that wonders about what is unknown. Does that make sense??? That's why the Irish stories are interesting to the kids. It's the unknown world, something that leaves their minds wondering.

I remember taking Algebra. For the world of me I couldn't understand why I needed to know about x equals an unknown, Polynomials, an equation balancing, etc. Letters instead of numbers really drove me crazy. All I needed to know is how to work a cash register, count my change.

Years later, I remember my next introduction to Algebra. It made my next meeting with Algebra easy. I passed with a 'B.' Somewhere the door that seems to lead to nowhere needs to be opened. Then, at a later time, the door will easily open all the way.

Isn't this why babies are now introduced to classical music? It starts the process to a wider world than just the singing of "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star."

I spent half of yesterday trying to figure out what usufruct meant without looking it up in the dictionary!

Usu looks like use and fruct looks like fructose or fructus, the Latin word for fruit, so I figured it was something about the use of fruit which of course makes no sense, I knew that was not right. I knew that had to be extrapolated somehow. Now Ann says it's Usufruct is the legal right to use and derive profit from property that belongs to another person, as long as the property is not damaged.

Boy I hate that word. You stick to YOUR property and don't think you can use mine, including my back driveway. snort.

To ME the mother was saying here, limit my son, don't teach him words like usufruct which may BE on a national test, but her son is not going to do that (how does SHE know what he's going to do?) he's going to be a plumber and won't need that word but he MAY need to be able (and does now) to spell words on bills and invoices. He MAY (he does now, he did not then) need to pass tests to work in people's houses. He MAY need not to look like an illiterate idiot.

I can see it both ways here.

I also believe McCourt here, in deliberately making a "funny" by showing how she pronounced his name and leaving off the "d" in her "an'" is saying that she herself is not the most particularly well spoken (educated?!?) person so take her own ideas with a grain of salt.

Unfortunately I agree with her, that if every teacher in the school told stories the children would learn nothing. I have a feeling she is not the only person who ever said that to him, but he has to earn a living.

So what McCourt is doing here, is he's doing a Frank Sinatra (I did it myyyy way) and then, because of his deeply ingrained mea culpa, is saying well here's the opposite view, and I'll tell it, I'll get it all out, I'll confess, but there's this little snarky thing in me (after all, I AM a Pulitzer Prize winner) that makeks me denigrate the people it comes from. After all, people keep saying I'm brilliant and innovative, and I am.

To ME, and maybe to ME only, this is fascinating, it's sort of a rationale for telling the stories (look I was fabulous, look I reached a child) but look at the thousands who passed by. Is it enough to make the classroom interesting and entertaining?

This, to ME, is fascinating, it really is, for what he's saying and how he's saying it.

more on this in a second....just getting started quite late here today.

Usufruct (at least in my state) is usually heard regarding a surviving spouse having the "usufruct" of the house and properties for the use of her (or his) life. That is a legal term we hear a lot of here in Louisiana. JOY

Thank you Joy, for that other use of usufruct, so in Lousiana you hear it a lot. I feel I have learned a new word and you never know where new words will take you! haha In that way we've all learned something in this discussion, when we were not expecting to!

Ella you are such a HOOT! My interpretation stated above of Moral Imperative (having to do something because you judge it the right thing to do morally) and therein lies the problem, is better outlined in Kant who talked about it. It might be fun to do a whole discussion on that someday.

Edith Anne, so you guys did have a Code, I don't remember any!!

Hats this is a wonderful counter attack on the mother wanting her son limited to what he'll encounter as a plumber! How many times have we seen people turn out contrary to all expectations, of the parents and even themselves? I agree with you that you have to set a standard, but I also think McCourt's stories are not a standard, I may be alone in this one! But I loved this:

Succeeding generations don't always follow the pattern of pass aunts and uncles. Therefore, I feel teachers should not lower the standard of education to the views of what parents might feel is good for their child. How many parents throughout history have fought against the idea that their child might become an artist or poet?

Yes like Disney's parents for example?

Ella, what is it you love about Teacher Man? We're still talking about liking or disliking the book@ hahahaaa Another first!

I woke up dreaming that Reader #50 had joined us, was all excited and that person is not here~! So much for MY dreams! Hahaha

Yes I rather think McCourt DID write this to be entertaining, (or maybe to make money, I have no idea), and when you say "tear it apart" are you referring to noticing that he's denigrating the people in little ways who take exception to what he did? That's, even in Non Fiction, a style of writing, some of us (I do) may need to note it, even as we sail on, even those of us fully in his camp. I seem to remember your doing the same thing in the book about the woman doctor who was stranded out on the ice whom everybody but you thought was heroic, hahaha.

This "tear it apart" is one of the criticisms leveled at our book discussions from time to time, so let's think together on how we can discuss this book for one month and NOT do that?

I'm open to any and all suggestions, particularly for questions!!! Let's discuss the questions! hahahaa

The more carefully I read it the less I'm in his camp, unfortunately, maybe that's what you mean by spoiling it?

He IS funny, at whose expense?

How can we discuss a book beyond, "I liked it, he's funny?"

The subject of diagramming did not come up in his class, but the "gibberish" did, not of his doing. What a perfect opportunity to talk about how bits of words (to the store) clump together. There seem to be several different thoughts on teaching grammar (which is what he was apparently needing to do), and Jane has suggested if TRANSITIONAL GRAMMAR was the one which tried to say that it's the order (which is what McCourt is saying) that makes the most importance. So much for Shakespeare.

Now Ella has thrown down a great gauntlet here:

If you can teach grammar (at the same time teaching spelling, vocabulary, psychology) in a vocational high school you can teach anything anywhere

I would say FM did a good job of it.

What do YOU think? How can we TELL? I thought his Excuse notes were brilliant, did he try to teach any grammar in them, by the way?

If the John store the to went is an example of his doing a good job, I'd say no.

What do the rest of you think?

??

OK Oh, yes, a word here and there to the parent, an explanation of why Johnnie can't read as well as others; all clues should be valuable to a teacher, a parent don't you think?

In front of all the other parents? I think McCourt did the right thing there, all the children were doing well, all brilliant, I never did understand the child monitor giving out numbers, that seemed quite odd.

Love your daughter's teacher's imaginative use of rain, candles and spooky stories! Read ON!! Hahaha

Scrawler many good points, now I am not sure how it is in other states, but here in SC recently if a carpenter, say, wants to come work on your house, he has to past tests first. If he can't read (which is true of some very gifted carpenters in this world, I have known many) he can't work NOW, he used to be able to, what is it like in your states?

And do you think that's right? What difference does it make if a carpenter who can build magnificent bookcases and other things, can't write an English sentence?

And then in the mills, too, as I found out teaching adults, they are basing promotions now on the degree of education a person might have, there is a LOT of desire to get a GED now. If you can't read you can't get a GED. And the GED has, I think (it's been a good 20 years since I taught GED to adults, does it still have grammar on it?)

So the illiterate bills left by workers in the home, carpenters, plumbers, etc., are becoming a thing of the past. Do they need to know how to spell usufruct and use it? I doubt it!

But they do need to know how to write sentences. It's a tough call.

It would seem to me that the good teacher can make the "dead" writers come alive? To me, some of the dead writers are more alive than their counterparts today. Hahaaha

Maybe I'm the one with one foot in the grave!

SierraRose, good point on the systems of Education in Europe: They all finish a good general education through the eighth grade, and then they are separated.

I always thought the British were cruel, separating out early the vocational students from the others, but it appears that McCourt is teaching IN a Vocational School, himself?

Are you all familiar with the series 7, 14, 21? Or something like that? It's a British study following children thru all their years of education, from most privileged to least, with a view to seeing how they turned out? It's quite surprising, it really was.

These were two super points, let's talk about them:

A. I do believe children need a really good basic general education in which they learn to be creative and adaptable, since the changes are so rapid that we have no idea what tomorrow brings, unlike generations ago when someone learned a job and kept it pretty much through a lifetime.

B. I believe by the time they get out of high school children ought to have a well rounded knowledge of the world and their place in it, have logic ability so they can think themselves out of any situation that might come up, and have learned how to be creative problem solvers---none of which is really happening, and we will pay a high price for that in a VERY competitive world.

What would you all say would form a basic education IN English, then? Let's discuss this! Let's play Superintendent and do our own!

Good question Babi on the effects of the rainy day! I have put that in the heading? More potent, I used to find, are the effects of a sunny day in spring! That's when you can't get their minds on anything! Hahaha Let's discuss that!

Good points, Hats, on Algebra and the doors that open. My first door remains solidly shut, in fact shut so tightly that it's Greek to me, I have no doubt that if I had to take any test in it now I'd get a solid F. Was it the way we were taught? Did "New Math" fix that?

I missed "New Math" but even I could see that the children were learning concepts I had no idea of. Of course WITH that they learned a hauteur of memorization which I also think is wrong. Hahaaa

You mentioned the cash register, do you all know how many people cannot make change when you go to a store? Are we MORE or LESS educated than our fathers and forefathers were? What do you think?

Yes McCourt IS charming, he's a laugh, a hoot, and he's done some very very clever things. In the process he's also doing something else. Let's not miss out a trick here, he's a very clever guy. And I get the feeling there is a LOT of serious under that mask, just like Captain Jack Sparrow, whom I saw yesterday Pirates II, what a HOOT he was. So creative, so funny and so clever, in that role.

That is so true. The cash register and the calculator have really, I think, slightly crippled young people. On their own, without any machine, they can't make change. Give a cashier a bill and some change, maybe a penny, and she or he won't know what to give you back.

Ginny, I have heard of New Math. What is it? If my children used it, I stayed clear of it. I don't want to give the wrong impression. Until this very day, I have a phobia for math. Is there a name for a person who is afraid of numbers? That word would describe me.

I am not sure, myself, only that it came in when our children were young, do any of you know what the New Math IS? I do remember I could not help them with their homework, and it seemed based on equations.

I have also heard that today they don't teach the multiplication tables because of course they have calculators handy, and it's that dreaded old "memorization" again. What a shame! (or so I think, what think YOU all!)

"I always thought the British were cruel, separating out early the vocational students from the others, . . . "

--- I don't think it's cruel at all. I think keeping children in school who are slow learners and will never catch up is cruel. In fact, talk about loss of self-esteem---that will do it every time. Trouble is that in this modern world we have so few blue-collar jobs anymore in the industrial nations that a child who doesn't want to go on to college has a hard time finding where he will fit in. We have PhD's working as waiters in restaurants; so how can someone with just a high school education even aspire to find work? I often wonder what will happen to all those who can't cut it in school. By the same token, I think expecting a carpenter to be able to write is also cruel if he's good at building a bookshelf. It's inhumane. Book learning is NOT the only kind of learning, and we ought to respect other types of learning, especially with those who are not good at book learning.

So separating those children early on is, I think, a good idea. The ones in apprenticeships and vocational schools may not feel brainy, but they can find a place for themselves in the world that will support a family---if our corporations wouldn't be giving all the jobs away due to their greed and the blessings of our government. A factory worker on an assembly line in Detroit used to be able to make enough money to raise a family, and he was often on that assembly line for the rest of his life instead of being expected to "move up" when he didn't want to. Some people don't want to, but they still have a right to make a living.

It's absurd to expect every citizen to aspire to be a chief, when it's the warriors on the front lines who are the foundation of the whole structure.

"What would you all say would form a basic education IN English, then? Let's discuss this! Let's play Superintendent and do our own!"

Children need to know how to write a decent sentence, how to do basic math, know the history of the world, and especially of their own historical process, have lessons in logic, and they need creative courses (which are the first to be cut whenever there is a budget crunch) because without creative minds who can solve problems everyone "gets stuck" in the same old ways of thinking. They need basic biology so as to know how nature works and their place in it. That includes how their own bodies work without necessarily going into sexual details.

I think by the time a child leaves high school he/she should be able to read a newspaper or a magazine and understand what is being said, and write a basic essay (with correct grammar and spelling), be able to balance a check book and figure interest rates and how much he is really paying for a car or a house without a calculator, have a general idea of his own history and how we came to be where we are today as a society, with a look at how other cultures have done things without necessarily going whole-hog on other cultures. In other words, study the dead white men who built this country and the whole western world, including it's writers and philosophers. They need to know how to analyze what they see on TV and the internet, have a well-developed memory so they can connect the dots with what was said yesterday and last year and even the year before, and analyze ads and the news to determine if they make sense or just play on emotions. I think religion has no place in schools except insofar as it is entwined with our history and how some philosophical ideas came about which have to do with religion. I don't think you can separate western history totally from religion, but dogma ought never to be taught. I think basic manners should be taught, and an explanation of why they are necessary on our ever more crowded planet. I don't think basic education should contain sex education (that's for the home), or most of the electives like auto shop. And this whole multi-cultural crap is more than I can take. To force children to pretend they are Muslims for one day is absurd and a waste of time, and is an insult to those who are of another religion. To debate this whole thing about evolution and creationism is ridiculous. Teach evolution as a scientific theory, and throw in various other society's thoughts on creation (and there are many), making it plain that they are just unique ways of man having explained his being here in a religous sense without emphasizing any one way of thinking or touting it as "THE FINAL TRUTH". They are smart enough to figure it out. When high school is done they should have the above basics under their belts, and then choose if they wish to go on to college or not, and if they do the college shouldn't have to be stuck with teaching them remedial math and English.

I hate the busy "nothing" work I saw in schools when my kids were young. My daughter had a course in a college prep school called "Rags, Rapping and Rapport". When she told me about it I let it slide because I assumed it was a course on how to dress, talk and communicate, and even though she already had a good idea of all those things, I decided not to fuss----until three weeks into the semester when I asked her what they were doing in that course. Turns out all they had done for three weeks was look at bridal magazines because the teacher was getting married. I hit the roof, went to the principal and demanded an end to that silly course. They had all sorts of excuses, but next semester it was gone---just to be replaced by other silly courses.

Sometimes I think these administrators are so far out of the real world, and so anxious to show how smart they are, that they loose all common sense. And the money spent on things like athletic lights when the college right next door already has them and events just have to be coordinated, or wall-to-wall carpeting when kids are so unsanitary, or "retreats" for adminstrative personnel where they can think up more absurd courses, or the salaries for administrators vs teachers, makes no sense to me; especially when they then turn right around and claim there is no money for teacher salaries or books or lab equipment. The whole educational system in the U.S.A. is absurd, and the absurdity varies from state to state. And as I've said before, we will pay a high price for that as the world changes and becomes ever more competitive.

"Have you ever met a famous celebrity socially? If so what was he or she like?"

Yes, I met Greer Garson and Liberace. Both were VERY charming and kind. This Dahlberg fellow mentioned by McCord is nothing but an egomaniac, not worth the trouble of knowing. In fact, his manners were so obnoxious that I don't consider him an educated person, no matter how he thinks of himself. A truly educated person also knows that some humility goes with the territory.

My son once met Wilt Chamberlain, the Lakers basketball star at the time. He was gruff and obnoxious, and I think my son was really hurt by the rebuff. He was just a little kid of about 7. That day he learned that his chosen idols are not always kind people.

I have to ask: when a teacher teaches does he/she teach because of students, parents, or the school system or all of the above? I think the answer to this question probably should form the basis of what should be taught in our schools.

Yes, we have come along way in education, but to me our education system is still very archaic. I wish that education would take advantage of the tools that available. Ginny, you mentioned calculators. I don't see anything wrong in using calculators in school. You would use them in business situations wouldn't you? Well, why not use them in school where you can learn to use them correctly and get used to using these tools like caluclators and computers.

When I started out I used a legal yellow pad and No.2 pencil, now I wouldn't think of writing without my trusty "computer." Because I didn't learn the computer until I was an adult I still am nervous when I use it, like when it tells me I've made a "fatal error" but I doubt that I could go back to using a yellow notepad to write my stories. Although I do use the yellow pads to jot down notes etc. when away from the computer.

I agree that when a child leaves he/she should have a basic education. But what would you describe as "basic?" Its true that the world is constantly changing and education at least to me always seems a step behind. But I think that there are two places one can get education: from what is inside your head and the place where you might find out the information. I can see teachers incouraging students to find out for themselves the information they need in this changing world.

I don't think it is necessary to spoon-feed or cram information into a child just because they have to pass a test. It is ashame for example that a carpenter has to pass a test to prove he can read English before he can work on a house.

I don't know that most eighteen-year-olds really know what they want to do when they get out of high school. Some individuals spend their whole lives searching for what they want to do. To me it is more important that a young man/woman can provide for themselves or their families by finding the best job they can. A good education should provide the means in order to do just that. But over and above that it should be up to the individual to find out for themselves what they want to learn as far as creative projects go.

I am catching up as I came in a little late. Still have 10 and 11 to read. I absolutely do agree that spelling is very important in school. I am only a moderate speller, and it has gotten in the way of my work all of my life.

In the first 5 chapters, I did feel that FM was spending too much time on the telling of stories in the class, and letting the students keep him from getting into what the learning should be about. In fact, I felt the book revolved too much around him and not what he was supposed to be doing----teaching. I think the learning of English grammer in this country is very important I am not sure how much it is taught in schools anymore.

Another idea I get from this book that I really do not like is that it seems that he is saying that if you dont go to on to higher education , you are not worth as much as the person who does. This is absolutely not true.

GINNY, you were on the right track. The definition (first def.) I found of usufruct stated it was the legal right to use the fruits or profit of someone else.

I don't know if the "New Math" referred to here is the same demonstrated to me when my son was in elementary school, but I was so envious. It was clear to me that math learned in the new way would segue on into higher math, like algebra, naturally and easily. Oh, if only I had had the "New Math" in my early years of school.

I was amazed at how prolific excuse notes were. In my experience, an excuse was a two-liner. "Please excuse _____ for absence yesterday; he/she was sick." Period. McCourt had these "gems of fiction,fantasy, creativity, crawthumping, self-pity, familyproblems, boilers exploding, ceilings collapsing, fires sweeping whole blocks, babies and pets pissing on homework, unexpected births, heart attacks, strokes, miscarriages, robberies?" Who says these kids can't write?

In our household, however, there was no nonsense about falsifying excuse notes. In the first place, we didn't miss school unless there was a mighty good reason. And neither my brother or I would have cared to risk damage to our tender posteriors by writing our own excuses.

Babi

When my daughter was in 9th grade at a junior high, she wrote her own excuse for missing school and gave it to her homeroom teacher. This teacher was the English Lit teacher and had also taught my son two years earlier. He was astounded that my daughter thought he wouldn't remember my script and know that this wasn't it. She was grounded for awhile after that.

I also forgot to say that I am one of those people who during my education thought I would educate myself for one job and that would be the one type of job I could stick with for the rest of my working life.And that is what I did. Now I am 60 years old, and I am very frightened about what may still happen in my working life. This is something that was brought up in the questions, I believe.

The old technical high schools we used to have here in NZ, taught all the core subjects plus things like cooking, metal shop, wood shop and sewing. The kids from these schools got apprenticeships after high school. They did practical work with an employer and attended a tertiary school at night for theory. They also did stay away from home and do intense block courses in theory. These people went on to be our tradespeople such as plumbers, electricians, builders. The Conservative Govt in the early 90s stopped the apprenticeship schemes and we ended up in 2000 with an acute shortage of skilled labour in the trades. Both my sons although with high IQs wanted to work outdoors so they did apprenticeships in the eighties. Both are very well off and have run their own businesses for the last 16 years. Some children hate conventional classroom learning and my boys were like that. They just wanted to leave the classroom and go outdoors. They thrived as young trade apprentices attaining the highest examinations they could get in both fields. We need trades people. There is a big shortage in the developed world because we have focused on business so much in our tertiary institutions in the last decade and a half. My boys are not without a soul either, my eldest son writes very good poetry and has kept a notebook full of his work since he left school. The youngest son is a very good artist and loves to sketch.

Carolyn

Ok, I'm going to go out on a shaky limb here ~
New math is all right as a teaching tool, as long as it doesn't take over the entire math class. Would you say the study of logic is a bad idea? New math can be taught like logic problems, but many teachers miss the point and charge ahead, confusing the kids.
Since I do not have a math phobia, all sorts of readers might be annoyed at this post.
But I don't mind being a contrarian.
I think everyone's math skill should be improved as much as possible. But not every
child should have to learn so-called new math.

Reading the posts and delving into my book which arrived yesterday... I have come to the comclusion that...I really disliked school..! I could read quite well when I came to school for the first time. My mother was learning English and was always reading to my brother and me to improve her skills. I left the classroom and was halfway home because they insisted on an afternoon nap..that's for babies! As well as being a reader,(at 5 years old) I could knit, sew, knew how to use a knife and fork and could say please,thank you and may I.. WW2 interrupted my stay at this school by evacuating us to a backwater in the country.We stayed from Sept 1939- Easter 1940 and came back to London in time for the blitz and blackout and unexploded bombs. In spite of all this, I took the 11+ exam. Only 3 students from my school passed.I was one of them. It meant that I could go to the School that my mother considered on of the best girl's school in London. More later Colkot

I loved School and was highly competitive. Not coming first in class was a terrible shock to me when I went to high school. I think I came third overall in the core subjects in my first year and my mother said I was unbearable tantruming and crying. I can't imagine it now. I was never as competitive in business as I was in school. I was very lucky and happened to be zoned for the best high school in an affluent area. My old high school is the largest one in the country now and has state of the art everything. Some of my teachers went on to do their Phd's at Oxford and Harvard. I was so very fortunate to have had these talented young men to teach me.

I remember meeting my old history teacher when I was on my way to the High court to represent the Govt dept I worked for at the time. He was on a sabbatical but lecturing at Auckland Uni while he was home from Oxford. I remember thinking that he was only about 10 yrs older than me yet at school I thought he was a very old man. LOL. We had a wonderful chat about old times as we walked down from the bus to our place of business. The high court is not far from the Uni. This teacher gave me my love of political history and taught us to debate issues. The biggest gift he gave us was the ability to have confidence in expressing our own opinions.

Carolyn

I was 55 yrs of age when I had my first experience of university and I realize now that I was very naive. Another younger student offered me lifts to and from my home and I was very grateful. I showed her my first assignment and she showed me hers. To my amazement, her work had nothing to do with the given subject, whilst I had sweated blood and tears researching my effort. When our papers were marked she had a higher mark than I did, so I asked to read her paper - which I discovered was an exact copy of mine, except for inclusion of a few different words. That was the last time I showed my work and returned to my usual bus trips home. I thought the story of Kevin Dunne was a good one, he was a difficult student and I suppose McCourt could think of him as one of his failures, but he had a flash of insight when he gave him the paint jars to clean, and the boy did such a good job, he had the potential for a better life. And I liked his mother too, she loved him and was proud of him, and what a tragedy that he was wasted in a senseless war.

Good morning all, I am glad to be back from my relaxing vacation, and can see you all have been very busy with your posts. I was reading chapters 5 - 8 as we drove to Mt. Pleasant, and again had to share the humor with my husband as he was doing the driving. He laughed so hard at the "John went to the store" ordeal, I thought he was going to have to pull over.

EllaGibbons #138.....I have to agree with you, I felt chapter 5 was all about entertainment. I laughed so much I thought I would cry. One sentence, "John went to the store", developed into such a calamity of thoughts. I was thinking, WOW, these kids are pretty creative and would make great writers, although they would need editors or computers to correct their spelling and grammar, I am certain.

Sierrarouse #140....Your post about basic education and what students should come away with was interesting. I taught computer classes in a Catholic grade school, and I felt by the time the students graduated from 8th grade they should know all of the things you mentioned. Each year I would use a program that had the students paired up as a married couple, They had to keep a checkbook, a saving account and cash, throughout this six weeks course. They encountered real life experiences, losing a job, deciding which type of car to purchase, whether to have children, when to take a vacation, whether to purchase the brand name clothes or save their money and buy lower priced ones, shop for groceries, and yes even an unexpected flood in the house, which made them realize early on they should have purchased the home owners insurance. I had more fun then you can imagine, watching these 8th graders realize what their parents go through on a day to day basis, to give them the necessities they took for granted. By the time they completed this program they went away with critical thinking, math skills, learning to compromise, etc. etc. I see these students every now and then, now that they are all grown up and have children of their own. They tell me how much fun they had doing that particular program, and how it actually came back to them now that they are experiencig real life situations.

Scrawlers #142.....I can only imagine going back to the yellow pad after experiencing using computers. One point I would like to make is while I taught computers for the 15 yrs, I also taught the students and teachers how important it was for all of us to remember we need to learn and keep our basic skills of Math and English for the simple reason, its knowledge gained and is always there when the computer crashes. There was a 6th grade Math teacher who decided the students could use calculators to do their lessons and tests. The students came to my computer lab with their calculators one day and I asked, why were they using them in my lab? They responded, "Because we can, Mrs. Trabbic said we don't need to sit trying to figure out adding and multiplying in our heads when everything is going to calculators and computers." I truly butt heads with Mrs. Trabbic, needless to say she and I had a difference of opinion. My argument to her was, while I can see in the student's future the calculators and computers will be there for them to use, what will they do in a situation as my bank teller had, when I came in to make a deposit, and the computers were down for maintenance? At that time not all students had computers in their homes and could not afford one, so how can we begin teaching them to eliminate the critical thinking skills they will need to rely on the rest of their lives at such and early age? I told her these students need to know they can use their minds as a back up to add and multiply. Our decision was to agree to disagree, I told her and the students NO calculators were going to be used in the computer lab. Mrs. Trabbic retired, years later she came back to our school to tutor Math. She came to me and told me she can see what I meant, and how the kids had come to depend solely on a calculator, they had no concept of percentages, ratios, or fractions. She said, while we all agree students need to know how to use these tools, they must always be able to rely on knowledge learned.

Ginny....Just a thought......While reading the many posts on whether FM should or should not be teaching from a lesson plan, I had to think... You posted in an outline structure many questions for us to think about and respond to. I couldn't help but think, how FM decided to try teaching a structured lesson plan, "John went to the store", the students took that and went off in so many directions, yet the lesson was still being taught. Now think about how many of us read your list of questions, yet we went off in many different thoughts and directions never really addressing most of your questions, the same as the students with FM. Yet, we all came to discuss the "subject", us.. "Teacher Man", the students, "JOHN". Now is that interesting or what??? So I guess my point is...give a subject to talk about and it gives a person food for thought. Even the word, USUFRUCT and CONDIGN, look what how just those two words got the responses in here. I have to say, I liked when FM did go back to the basics, the students did more of the talking rather than FM

I have to say the discussion with the mother was hilarious, the bachelor grey hanky, sad shoes, and Mr. McCurd set me into a fit of laughter. The part where she said, " You are a fraud, we got plenty of our own stories to tell at home. Forget the stories, we got TV guide and Reader's Digest." was the best.

One last point, I was a bit sad when I saw where FM said it was now 4 years later, and he still didn't care. I have been struggling a lot, as to why he really did choose to teach at all, and I am still not sure it was something he grew to love. For someone like myself who taught for fifteen years and now for nine years owning my own day care, teaching kids is a love that I could never imagine doing if it weren't.

So many good points and it's summertime, sum sum summer time and I especially liked your points BellaRose on how a discussion just grows out of a "lesson plan" or questions in the heading,. The questions are ONLY there to spark thoughts, and to get people talking so we can all hear voices, and we hope that something somebody else says will do the same thing, so I'm tremendously pleased, this is not a class! Great thoughts, All!!

I am still struggling with the class which spent one semester thumbing thru Bridal Magazines, because the teacher was getting married! ! Now McCourt would say, look: the kids love to come to class, they love to thumb thru bridal magazines, (if they did) and they are:

learning socio economic issues: i.e., the cost of weddings today and how stupid they are, what a massive industry this is

learning to write essays on this industry and the various points thereof, they can write an explanation to the Wedding Planner as to why they don't want $8,000 camellias out of season or why pate de fois gras is not a good thing for the banquet.

looking forward to school and making it relevant to their own lives.

THIS McCourt might say, is innovative and clever teaching!! BRILLIANT! We know SierraRose's opinion of it! Hahahaah What would you all say here?

In other words, in trying to make the subject come alive, we may all have different ideas on what constitutes ALIVENESS and RELEVANCE to today's norms.

I like structure because English, whether or not we know it, is based pretty much on Latin and therefore so is the structure, and just as you break down Latin sentences so you can understand them, you can do it with English too, but that's just ME and a lot of people don't know and don't care or don't think it's relevant 2000 years later: de gustibus.

But let's talk about the Bridal Magazines I, as a course in high school, if you missed that post hit Printer Friendly and find Sierra Rose's post on that!!

I can't get that out of my head. DID she make a super unit out of it? Or not? What are some of the things she COULD have done with that one?

What would YOU do with that one to, say , teach English??

Sierra Rose: " --- I don't think it's cruel at all. I think keeping children in school who are slow learners and will never catch up is cruel". But what IF they decide you are not going to go forward and you could have?

I have a feeling in the British system with my being a total Grade A Idiot in Maths I'd be welding today (and probably killing everybody within a 10 foot radius, too?)

???? I thought they based that entire decision on one test, am I right or wrong? You could be having a bad day or be the afore mentioned Idiot in Math and you'd be welding!

I thought that was a wonderful post on educators and education in general! So interesting on the celebrities, I agree that Dahlberg (whoever he was or is) was not much.

Scrawler I liked your take on the learner's part in education, the trick being to ENGAGE that learner. As for calculators I am not against them but I would like to see the student have SOME ability to calculate 9x3 in his head too. I think they cripple the student who then can't think unless some battery powered THING is in his hand.

Mary from Seattle I agree with your thoughts, nicely put and who is the focus of that classroom might be something we might want to watch.

Babi, I'm glad I was on the "fruitful" track hahahaa. On the Excuse Notes, I am thinking there was a requirement for attendance or they would never have been submitted, did he ever try doing grammar with them? There is something about that whole section there that bothers me but I don't know what it is.

Ahaha Ann, I once wrote an entire book report on a book which I also made up, so I do understand student creativity, funny story!

Mary from Seattle, what's happening with your job, I found in teaching adults that the plants were mechanizing and people had to keep up or be pushed aside and of course those who did not know what a computer was or could not read were quite anxious. Our workforce is now encouraged to work, it is till 72? I am not sure, I know they keep raising the retirement age.

Kiwi Lady, are these trade schools something the child chooses or are they something the government has chosen?

Mippy, I think the new Math has replaced all the elementary math, am I right? Does anybody know what's taught now in the elementary schools in the way of math?

Colkot, thank you for that interesting look at education in England, and you like Michael Caine were relocated, I'd like to hear more about that. What is 11+??

KiwiLady, this is super: "The biggest gift he gave us was the ability to have confidence in expressing our own opinions.". That's a lovely gift for anybody! This statement "Not coming first in class was a terrible shock to me when I went to high school," interested me because when I was in high school, in our Latin class (we all know that students are ranked, Valedictorian, Salutatorian ect) but in our class every Monday we'd stand against the wall and the teacher would place us in order of our past week's standing in the class or mastery of it.

I bet THAT is not done today, would not even be considered or would be considered competitive or worse, it's interesting how educational theory has changed!

You are talking about your own feeling of wanting to be first and I think maybe I am too, since this was done by a teacher in one class, it really made you want to be FIRST and to do well. I am not sure how the last row felt tho?

Ellen, shame on that student taking your work! 55 was your first experience in a University? HOORAY for you!! Love it!

I am not sure what I think about the Kevin Dunne story. McCourt wants us to know he reached this child by his mother's revealimg he spelled out McCourt OK in paint jars. I am not sure what to say, I am glad the child had a loving and supportive mother, tho. Back when McCourt taught you needed one who would buck the system and try to get her child some help. You may still need one.

My paternal grandmother had the worst kids in the school. She was famous for what she could do with them.

That surprises me a little bit because she was very strict by nature, a history teacher, strict even with herself personally, and quite difficult, the antithesis of McCourt. All schools have these classes of difficult students, in my own high school they were known as "Steiney's boys" because Mr. Steinberg taught them separately.

They were juvenile delinquents and worse.

But when my grandmother taught them, it appears from what I could see years into her retirement, from the letters, and photographs of children and grandchildren they sent her, and news of their own lives, that she believed in them and encouraged them to work and make something of themselves, and so for years and years later they wrote her. Up until her death at 89, actually.

I wondered if McCourt's students did the same, having had that experience with my own grandmother I wondered if his did, too. He does not say, anywhere in the book, I believe? I looked for it, actually.

BellaMarie, it sounds to me as if you taught a wonderfully useful course to your 8th graders, maybe one we all should have taken! This is a good point, too (as well as the calculator discussion you had) "I have to say, I liked when FM did go back to the basics, the students did more of the talking rather than FM," yes that IS good, but I'm wondering that I'm not seeing where they actually had that much fun discussing the elements of a paragraph or grammar, I ….well the jury is still out. Entertainment, bridal magazines and funny writing, A++++. Memorable classes A++++++. Actual stuff learned? Jury is still out, he's not saying. Sooner or later there has to be something useful under all this.

You raise an excellent point about FM not caring, where are you seeing this? I did not see that, but I AM catching something under all this funny brilliance and stories, I may be wrong but it's there. All funny and brilliant men, all comics, have another side, every now and then in the writing something stops me, but I can't seem to put a finger on it.

I say again that any person who teaches 30 years in NYC inner city schools is more than worthy of our respect, I just want to make sure what he IS saying, he's throwing out more signals than a fountain does drops.

I'd say that the teacher who used bridal magazines to interest the students to come to class knew exactly which she was doing. She taught her students not only English, but that she herself was not unlike themselves. When we relate to another person, it is easier to listen to what they are saying.

Not only did it get them to think, but it also used their interest to instruct them in learning to write essays without them really noticing what she was doing. In school learning can be a drag, simply because the teacher is unimaginative.

In so important not only to get the student's attention, but also make the class interesting enough so that the student want to go to school. There are any number of learning lessons that one can get from reading. It really doesn't matter what you read as long as you read.

I'm afraid I never saw very many creative things in my high school learning experience. Everything was multiply choice and we never had to write essays because they were too hard to correct because of large number of students we had.

To me the best way to learn English is to find a subject that you like and read about it. I have found that through this process you not only learn about the subject you are interested in but it can jump start you to look into other subjects as well. For example after I saw the movie "Capote" it got me interested enough in Truman Capote's life to read his biography, "In Cold Blood" and read some of his short stories. While I don't admire the man personally I do like the way he writes.

I must confess I was pleased when the kids refused to write excuses for Hitler, or for draft dodgers. I'm not condemning draft dodgers; I can well understand that a draft dodger can have valid reasons for refusing to enter the military. That's not my point here.

I am pleased that the kids were firm in their refusal to 'excuse' conduct they found reprehensible. IMO, we have allowed social cancers to grow unchecked, while we were trying to be compassionate and understanding. However much one may hate the actions that damaged a child, we cannot excuse the adult he becomes for equally hateful behavior. We take extreme measures against cancers that ravage the physical body; how is it we so often permit a social cancer to ravage us again and again?

Anyone here want to write an excuse for Hitler? If you do, please give me an early warning. I want to head for shelter before the fallout.

OKAY, OFF MY SOAPBOX. BABI

That was the exam to separate the students into those who could go on to a college prep school and those who went elsewhere. I took this exam at a large room in a Public library in Hammersmith,London. You had simple arithmatic, probably a paragraph to analise, some simple grammar and spelling and an essay with a choice of a given subject.In my mind's eye I remember the beautiful spring day. This was 1942. Subsequently, I went for an entrance exam at the school, was interviewed and offered a place to start in September. I was among a large number of scholarship girls, and my world was about to change for ever. I attended this school from September 1942 to June 1947, leaving school by taking my exams for eligibilty to University.(I passed in all subjects, some better than others. it would have meant 2 more years at school preparing, but with a younger brother and economic circumstances being what they were, I had to go to work..( I finally got my degree in the US in 1981)... more later about the school & the teachers. Colkot (P,S. Babi...I sat under Hitler's bombs in WW2...no kind words about him from me...the only GOOD thing I can say is that I met my late husband in England after the war and courtesy of Roosevelt, Churchill & Stalin, I now live in Chicago USA..check your history!)

I hope this is one of the questions. As I continue to read, I feel that Frank McCourt is in the wrong profession. I do see a glimmer of hope as he teaches at the community college. On the high school level, he's just doing a duty. He doesn't really care about the kids. I think it's just a matter of getting a check and making a living. It's not Mr. McCourt's fault. I think many people, myself included, have been in a job or jobs where we just did our duty in order to get paid.

It's sadder when a schoolteacher is unhappy doing their work because their feelings involve our children's lives. I would feel the same way about a doctor or nurse. Knowing a doctor or nurse hated their job just is too dangerous to the lives of people I love. I want to know they love their work.

I felt very uncomfortable when Mr. McCourt slapped the boy with a rolled up magazine.

Ginny...#154..."You raise an excellent point about FM not caring, where are you seeing this?

pg.78 Four years on the job in 1962 and I didn't care anymore. I told myself I never cared in the first place. You entertain them with stories of your miserable childhood. They make all those phony sounds. Oh, poor Mr. McCourt, musta been awful growin' up in Ireland like taht. As if they cared. No. They're never satisfied. I should have followed the advice of old-timer teachers to keep my big mouth shut. Tell'em nothing. They just use you. They figure you out and move in on you like heat-seeking missles. They find out where you're vulnerable.

Ginny #154"I did not see that, but I AM catching something under all this funny brilliance and stories, I may be wrong but it's there. All funny and brilliant men, all comics, have another side, every now and then in the writing something stops me, but I can't seem to put a finger on it."

I too am seeing something under all the funny stories. Most people hide hurt and frustration with humor. I sense, he struggles with all his disappointments from his childhood. I sense, no matter how well accomplished he sees he is, he continues to allow his childhood fears and hurt, hold him hostage. Again...I say, I see FM as a man still trying to be accepted, only thing is, he wants acceptance from possibly the people who are not able to give it.. HIS dead father and HIMSELF. Just my thoughts. I highly respect him as an author, just not sure about a teacher so far. Yes, thirty years says a lot, but did he TEACH or did he hide out? Not sure, I am still giving this much thought.

Yes, as an author, Frank McCourt, I think is wonderful. I don't think it's easy to write humorously. Frank McCourt is gifted in that area. He can rub all the emotions, making all feelings surface. As a writer, I think he discovered his rightful place in the world.

I loved the excuse notes. It's just impossible not to laugh. My mother always took pride in writing excuse notes. She had a beautiful handwriting. She wrote a brief note. I could never have forged her notes. Besides I would have been too frightened to forge a note. For that reason, I thought only a few students, the difficult ones, would have the nerve to write what their parent had never written or even seen.

How very interesting! Perhaps we need to stop a moment and discuss why McCourt wrote this book. I doubt if he meant it to be a thesis or even a textbook on teaching methods; certainly not. Isn't it just a memoir with all his thoughts over the years on his own teaching experiences in the NYC school system, with his struggles of self-esteem arising from his own childhood, his Irish background, Catholicism and possibly alcoholism.

Aren't we taking the book too seriously?

If we are to discuss teaching methods in schools today vs. past methods of teaching, I think we are discussing the wrong book.

I thought this was a memoir not a treatise on correct teaching. When he berates himself about not telling stories anymore as the kids take advantage of him, I think he's just trying to justify his reactions to this class and his way of teaching. I don't think that he would ever give up telling stories as it has worked so well for so long.

Oh I don't think Frank McCourt is QUITE that ingenuous, do you really?

At any rate, good points, Ella and Ann, remembering, of course, in our book discussions each person can talk about anything at all that the author himself brings up in the book, we can certainly include McCourt the Man and the Memoir which we have not touched on!

I think the reason some of us are talking about Teaching Methods is that Frank McCourt himself is talking about them, (pretty strongly in fact), and there's nothing really out of bounds in a book discussion to talk about if the person writing the book brings it up himself?

However, I can see in the heading that we do NOT have, perhaps, an equal representation on the "memoir" and the man himself, and I don't know what happened to our Reader's Guide questions from the UK, so I'll take some of the heading out now and put up some on McCourt himself, and that way each person can talk about what he'd like in the book, how does that sound?

That's a good point, Ella, on why did he write the book? I don't think he says, so let's put that in the heading and ask it and see what WE think? Because we will never know unless he says so. Did he need the money? The fame? Was he badgered by fans? He had more time now he's retired?

??

So for those who would like to talk about McCourt himself, here's a starter and I'll put these in the heading also, and please suggest some of your own.

www.readinggroups.co.uk/guides/

What is most appealing about Frank McCourt and his stories? How does he draw from his past to help him in the present with his teaching?

In what way does The Teacher Man extend and develop our image of Frank as a person?

What are your feelings towards Frank the teacher compared to Frank as a child? You might wish to think about how you reacted to his character for each of his three books. Are there any similarities and differences?

What is your overall impression of the man and his life?

What makes great memoirs? What specific elements help to make the memories more vivid and real?

And here's another one:

Why do you think he wrote this book? (Ella)

What is this book about? What IS this book ABOUT?

I think every reader will come to this book discussion with a different background and take on it. If you have taught you might identify with some of the challenges he's thrown out here, no matter how charmingly and hilariously about teaching and methods. If you've read both his prior books you might just like his stories, no matter what he's talking about. Let's see how we all see this book, we'll divide the heading up and stand back to hear what you think! Great focus points, we do need to focus on the man, as we see him in this book) and the Memoir as genre, thank you!

We're half way thru the book. I am not sure we can say at this point alcoholism has anything to do with it, can we? I have not seen any at this point, but I may have missed something.

Ann you raised an interesting question, you said you thought it was a memoir, not a treatise on teaching. What is your definition of a memoir?

I think that the points he is making (maybe we should ask what POINT if any he is making in this book?!?) has less to do with his charming self denigration and berating himself, but more to do with his constant assertion that methods courses are worthless and that the people who taught him to teach don't know how, themselves. That's pretty strong stuff, Guys? Or do we think everybody thinks that way? Do they?

So what do you think he is doing? I think we need THAT in the heading, too, good points! Let's discuss McCourt the MAN! And the MEMOIR, great focus here this evening!

It's an interesting question to ask... why does anyone write a book? I think his type of book is for many different reasons. I am writing books and my reasons are: for self accomplishment, to contribute to the children's books, to capture the little minds, to hope families will take the time to read my books and relate to them with their children or grandchildren and because I love books and want to write about the interests of today for children.

So I think FM had some of the same reasons for writing such as: self accomplishment, to share his experiences and life lessons with others, for entertainment, for self examination, for needing to do more than teach, since he does not seem to be fulfilled with just teaching and possibly to challenge himself to go beyond a classroom. He was very impressed with the authors he shares with us he read growing up. He seemed a bit envious, yet impressed with Dahlberg and I sensed it was because it was a life long dream of his t to write..

I think if you ask the question...why did FM choose to write such self examining books, I would say again, self accomplishment and therapy, and to share his life and lessons with others. I don't think money was ever an issue but I think the fame he knew would come or at least hoped would come with it was also a driving force. He seems very determined to overcome the childhood fears, hurts, disappointments etc. and in writing his books maybe he was able to at some level.

I am anxious to hear what all you others think.

"THIS McCourt might say, is innovative and clever teaching!! BRILLIANT! We know SierraRose's opinion of it! Hahahaah What would you all say here?

-----Actually, if the teacher had done some innovative teaching from the magazine I would have not only gone along with it but considered her brilliant. However, she did not. When I first heard about the course, like I said, I thought that's what it would be, but it wasn't.

Ginny's suggestions of some of the things that could have been done were almost as brilliant as McCourt's excuse notes. Yes, there are many ways the teacher could have handled this, including looking for spelling errors in EXPENSIVE ads (spelling), which I find all the time, analyzing the photography (art and creativity), asking the kids if a wedding could be reduced in cost and how that could be done (math), even analyzing some of the writing (grammar), especially in the ads with the pretty pictures, and even the history of how these ostentatious weddings came to be (history). BUT THE TEACHER DID NONE OF THOSE. She sat on her butt with little interaction except the ooooohing and aaaaahing over one dress or another.

In fact, my son had a teacher who did the opposite. In the California schools they attended every classroom had a TV set, and often the teachers would turn the TV set on for the kids while they graded papers or whatever they did. I was also incensed over that, since most of those kids watched too much TV as it was at home and I didn't want my children watching TV instead of doing lessons. But my son had a sixth grade teacher who used the TV set as a brilliant lesson plan. She taped various ads, and then she showed them and asked the children to analyze them as to truth, half-truths, emotional content, tricks, outright lies, innuendos, photography, length to get the point across, etc. etc.

I had been teaching those things to my kids for years, but being their mother they let it go in one ear and out the other. After this teacher's lessons my son clearly saw the point, and because he adored this particular teacher, he suddenly understood what I'd been trying to tell him all along. He is a pretty brilliant analyst now and there are very few advertisers who can put one over on him, or con-artists for that matter.

So no, I have no objection to innovative teaching methods. But that's just it----teachers better use that sort of innovation instead of using magazines or TV as an escape. That's why I complained, and nothing changed from future reports that I got about other micky mouse classes that could have been made been highly interesting to the kids if the teachers had not been lazy.

BELLEMARIE I think expresses the reason memoirs are written:

"why did FM choose to write such self examining books, I would say again, self accomplishment and therapy, and to share his life and lessons with others. I don't think money was ever an issue but I think the fame he knew would come or at least hoped would come with it was also a driving force. He seems very determined to overcome the childhood fears, hurts, disappointments etc. and in writing his books maybe he was able to at some level.

At this point in FM's life, he didn't need money - ANGELA'S ASHES being a bestseller and made into a movie I believe. Another bestseller with TIS.

I have in my bookcase one of my favorite memoirs - NEIL SIMON REWRITES. He certainly didn't write this book for money; all his life his plays were on Broadway and made into movies (think Barefoot in the Park, the Odd Couple, The Out-of-Towners, The Goodbye Girl, etc.) he's famous everywhere. So why did he write? Therapy perhaps -

the painful discord he endured at home as a child, his struggles to develop his talent as a writer, and of his insecurities when dealing with what proved to be his first great success-falling in love.......But always at center stage is his first love, his wife Joan, whoses death in the early seventies devastated him, and whose love and inspiration illuminate this remarkable and revealing self-portrait. The book is rich in laughter and emotion, and filled with the memories of a sometimes sweet, sometimes bittersweet life.

Why would a successful playwright need to write a book?

Somewhere in FM's book doesn't he talk of his frustration at not having the time to write because he has to grade papers and teach 5 classes, etc. Finally, he is getting all those years of frustrations out of his system by writing, and writing, and writing more and the public has told him they love 'em.

If he lives long enough I would expect him to write another. I wish Neil Simon would write another.

. . . you taught got the basics, and I agree with you that they ought to know their mathe BEFORE they begin using calculators. Otherwise the conepts get lost. It's like following a set of instructions without knowing why, and when the batteries go dead or the electricity fails they have no idea what to do.

I also wanted to mention that many years ago I read about a girl scout troop that had an innovative leader. She made up a game of her own where the girls spun a pointer, and the pointer would land on a particular field---say a field that says, "you never meet the man of your dreams and never get married", or "you have a child out of wedlock", or "you have a major illness and have no insurance", or "you and your husband buy a house", or "you give birth to a child that is mentally retarded", or "your college education gets interrupted", or "you meet a millionaire who adores you", or "he loses all his money in a crash", or "your son goes into the army during wartime"----in other words, all the various situations that can come up in life, both good and bad. Since life is as unpredictable as that game was, she would then ask the girls what they would do if the situation came up that their pointer landed on. It gave them the opportunity to think and see that life was not necessarily as neat and tidy as they had thought it was, and they were enthusiastic about the game, expanded their view of what life could be and how many glitches there could also be, and got practice using their problem-solving skills.

Don't know if she ever patented it, but it sounded like a woman who was a very innovative and wonderful teacher.

I was lucky because when I was a teenager I had a father who played the game with me without the board or the pointer. He gave me hypothetical situations, and I told him how I would solve them. Sometimes my answers were impractical or stupid, but he never said so. He would simply say something like, "Hmmm, well that doesn't sound like it would solve the problem, but what about this?" I pretty much learned to handle anything that comes up in life and have the confidence that I can handle anything that will come up in the future, including old age and illness, because he taught me to think creatively, LISTENED to my answers (one of the few men who ever did), and led me in various directions without giving me an outright solution. He made me find my own.

. . . the experiences he had as a teacher are interesting and funny and entertaining.

I have transcribed medical reports for the past 35 years (now retired), and let me tell you, the stuff that has crossed my desk over those years would make one heck of an interesting book. The things people do, the humor and the tragedy, were all there. I did write some of them down, always thinking they would make wonderful short stories, but I'd rather paint than write---so they were never written. But I sure remember them.

When our daughter was in college she waited on tables. The customers she had and their quirks were amazingly good stories. For a while she did housecleaning. Same thing. I think any time you deal with people on a regular basis the stories can be fascinating, and incredible raw writing material. McCourt had it right in front of him for 30 years. How can a true writer who has writing in his bones NOT write about his experiences?

What is a memoir? Well, to me, its the writing of your life, good and bad experiences, what you have learned from it, how you coped with it and how you laughed with it. IMHO, FM has captured his life in all of his books, starting with Angela's Ashes--his growing years, 'Tis--his coming to America and realizing that he needed further education, and Teacher Man--his working years. In all of these books, he tells us what he has learned about himself. These books are his life experiences. Do you think he might tell us about retirement next?? I can't imagine him retired because that's when he started to write.

I think ALL of us have had life experiences which should be chronicled. I've made so many false starts on mine which have been saved to my jump drive. FMC has just completed the task which many of us would like to do and was paid for it. He still seems to carry the baggage around from his earlier lives (as my late N.Ireland Dad used to do) If you DO let it go, then you are allowed to be happy, no matter what job you have, if you like it or don't. I've always felt in my life I was waiting for something and whatever I was doing, whether it be marriage, family,children immigration, University studies etc. it was a means to an end. Maybe one day I'll find out what it is I'm supposed to achieve! Colkot

Great stuff, am waiting for the plumber and am somewhat rushed, but would like to return to Hats's comment a bit earlier on the slapping of Hector in the face with a magazine when he would not open his book.

I doubt sincerely that Mr. McCourt has included every negative thing that he did or that happened to him in the last 30 years, so why is this episode there? (It's on page 126). It's not funny (to me, is it to you?) and I am wondering what you thought of it, and why you think he might have included it in the book?

(I also agree, Babi, that it was good that the students could choose nt to write excuse notes for Hitler.)

Plumbers are still here. Hard to concentrate, but you know, the art of reading the Memoir is a tricky one. I've been reading the reviews of this book by various readers on Amazon, and also by the professional reviewers( http://www.reviewsofbooks.com/teacher_man/).

I am struck by the number of people who think (this is their opinion) that McCourt wants to be "liked." that he is attempting to beguile the reader and to be seen as a popular teacher. One reviewer (Coleman) is particularly hard on him but we've not come to the part of the book he cites.

I'm trying to think of other Memoirs we have read. We read the book by the brother of the serial killer. We read Mary Karr's The Liar's Club. Do any of you remember that one? In that one we learned her philosophy on life (everybody but her is stupid and she enjoys lying) and I really emerged with a very hearty dislike of her, VERY.

In fact I threw away her book and enjoyed it.

As Sierra Rose and Colkot have mentioned we all have memories (and you two really should write, along with YOU, BellaMarie) my goodness I'd love to read some of your memories..I wonder.

I wonder what it would be like if each of us chose ONE memory (that we would put in a memoir if we ever wrote one) and broght it here. Maybe we could call it Memoir Monday or something. Let's try it?? Just ONE memory, not a whole book full. Let's do it? We'll have Instant Group Memoir. Just one memory. Would not have to be about teaching or anything else, just your own memory.

Some of the memoirs in McCourt's book are Instant, too, and immediately done away with. I don't think that's a mistake. We might want to look at what he takes pages on and what he dismisses in a paragraph.

If we're looking at McCourt the MAN, let's say at this point in the story what your take on him is? (We asked this before and it's in the heading).

A book is what the reader makes of it. Those of you who have never read any McCourt before, what do you make of him so far?

Those of you who read Angela's Ashes before what do YOU make of him so far? How would you describe him?

Those of you who read both Angela's Ashes and 'Tis, what do YOU make of him so far? How would YOU describe him?

I'll go first. I read Angela's Ashes and loved it. I did not read 'Tis. I don't know anything about the Irish. In this book I find him anxious to be liked, by the reader, by the students, and well thought of by the administrations, elsewise he would not have included so many of their plaudits.

My assesment is that it's more important to him to be popular than to teach. I am not sure of his motivation for teaching or why he's there, he said in one part that he wanted to be a "fantastic" teacher but I think the accent is on "teacher," not the students. I am not seeing the students as his prime concern. I may be wrong. I see HIM as his prime concern. What do you all think?

Is this typical of the memoir writer?

(I also think I know why he included the Hector incident), but I'll wait and see what you think on that one.

I think many writers write for their own pleasure or because there is something they want to say. To me McCourt was just marking time teaching while he waited to write his "Great American Novel." I don't think he succeeded in doing this.

Although his stories have always been entertaining, I don't think this book comes up to what he did in Angela's Ashes and 'Tis. The reason being was I think for the most part he was writing about other people and not really that much about himself. I also feel that he picked his subject matter to shock or dismay us rather to express what it really meant to be a teacher or student in the 1950s and 1960s. If I had been one of his students that he wrote about, I probably would have been embarrassed about what he said about most of his students. To me it seemed that he was going out of his way to make fun of the students. Its one thing to make fun of yourself; it is quite another to make fun of someone else or someone else's culture or ethnic group.

I can appreciate the writer and his style of writing, but I can't say the same for the man himself. I thought he was rather shallow to say the least. He is an excellent story teller which is why in the past I have liked his books, but this book just didn't do the same thing for me. Perhaps it was because I related to much to the students, rather than the teacher.

Is anyone going to jump all over me when I tell you I have Jane Fonda's book?

With all the stuff going on today by the powers that be(Bush et al) it's quite an eye-opener.

SierraRose & I should get together.. we seem to have similar views on the world.

Colkot

Still reading the posts I missed while travelling, but can't resist this one. Loved "John to the school went." Reminded me of Latin, haha. But this was in one of the newspapers over the weekend -- a cartoon. A tombstone being looked at by two mourners. The first mourner says, "A typo?" The second mourner says, "Can't be sure.

Here
Lay
Ken
Lies

Great points, Scrawler, and there is yet ANOTHER question we have not answered, let's put it in the heading, also: Although his stories have always been entertaining, I don't think this book comes up to what he did in Angela's Ashes and 'Tis.

So our question might be: So far, how does this book stack up against the other two that he's written (if you've read them) and why?

I like that! Thank you for that!

Scrawler, I agree, I'm trying very hard to remember creative teaching I encountered, surely there was some. I remember in the 8th grade we read A Tale of Two Cities and we had choices of "projects," and of course we all groaned and I chose the one where you illustrated the characters, but that took more work than you would think, AND research because you had to exemplify things, I remember that one and it WAS good.

I think I agree with you Hats, and I don't think that idea is entirely something foreign to the same idea of being a fantastic teacher. There is a lot of ego standing up in front of classrooms today, but let's see what others think here, let's be honest, it's our own reactions we're talking about, after all.

BellaMarie, thank you for that reference, I am also glad you are seeing "something," too. When we read a lot of times we just get "impressions" without looking hard to see where they came from and what they really are. The danger IS to have an "impression" when it's an impression based on what we had for lunch (or our broken toe) rather than what the author wrote, there ARE no right or wrong impressions in book discussions. I am enjoying seeing everybody's impressions here, because, of course, they are all different: we are all different.

SierraRose, well if she used reading Bridal Magazines solely as busy work to fill the hours then that's different, they were not "learning" anything except what bridal magazines looked like. Was she "popular?" Great on your son's 6th grade teacher, and thank you for the nice compliment!

I really like the Girl Scout "Pointer" game, that's very innovative and creative!

That's a great story about your Father, also, teaching you to think!

So what do you think, Everybody? How does this book stack up against the other two (so far, we're only half way thru) and why?

Great question!

Pedln!!! hahahahaha what a HOOT!

(It DOES rather remind one of Latin, doesn't it? Maybe that's where I'm getting all that!)

hahahaa You and Colkot posted the same time I did.

Colkot how do you compare Fonda's book with McCourt's? You don't want to know what I think about Jane Fonda so I'll ask that innocuous question instead.

Hhahahaah Pedln:

Actual Tombstone:

Here beneath this stone we lie,
Back to back, my wife and I
And when the angel's trump shall trill,
If she gets up, then I'll lie still.

hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

OR:

Here lies John Yeast
Pardon me for not rising.

OR!

I told you I was sick!

haahah sorry, off the subject JUST a tad.

Is it that McCourt wanted to be liked, do you think, or that he was unsure of himself as a teacher and needed reassurance? Whenever he got the plaudits from his superiors, as Ginny mentioned, his relief was so enormous he was ready to sing, whistle, dance, or float down the hall. Don't you see someone who has had a heavy weight lifted away?

The posts I've read on why McCourt wrote the book are all so good, I can't add to what has been said. But he is still 'telling stories', and the stories do more than entertain. I believe the students did learn from the stories, and their interest sufficiently engaged so that they were ready and eager to write stories of their own. Perhaps they never did learn all about analyzing the structure of a sentence, but I suspect their writing skills vastly improved.

I can sympathize with FM's difficulties in reaching out to students in trouble. He wanted to, but didn't know how, or couldn't overcome his own reticence or shyness. At least at first. I have never been a classroom teacher, but I have known instances where I wanted to reach out to someone, but was paralyzed with embarassment for being there at all. In other situations, I would be able to respond appropriately. It depended so much on the people and the situation. Much as I ache for the children, I can't throw stones at McC. either.

Babi

My favorite epitaphs were a pair, husband and wife. The husbands is somewhat wordy, and I will be paraphrasing as I can't quote it exactly:

"Here lies H....S...., poet, idealist, inventor, dreamer, visionary."

The wife's epitaph read simply: Here lies Elizabeth S...., long-suffering wife of H....S...."

Babi

A creative teacher could teach some interesting lessons with those too. Same with bumper stickers. And does anyone remember those wonderful Burma Shave signs along the nation's highways in the 1950s?

I personally don't think this book is meant to stack up to "Angela's Ashes". This is a lighter book, of some of his experiences as a teacher. Since it's a memoir, of course it isn't about the kids. It's about HIM, and I think that's OK. I don't think he makes fun of the kids at all. He is, however, looking at them from his poverty-stricken Irish background with all the misery he endured, and wondering why they are so spoiled and uncontrolled and so uninterested in learning in this land of such grand opportunity. Frankly, I have a lot of empathy for that viewpoint. I often wonder the same thing, from my particular difficult background. I even wondered about that with my own children who really never had to endure very much compared to what my original family went through, let alone their grandparents. But I suppose every older generation wonders about the younger generation in that way.

Also, there is no way someone can write down everything in a memoir. It would then become a diary. So in looking back one picks out the highlights in a memoir; those things one remembers best and which, for whatever reason that defy logic, left an impression on us. I think McCort does that very well.

As for wanting to be liked, most of us want to be liked, especially when we are young. Hopefully we get over it as we get older, and do and say things we really believe, whether or not we are liked. McCourt is speaking from a young man's viewpoint here, with all the insecurities that entails, including having to make a living and hoping not to be fired in a culture he is not totally familiar with.

I found the book a light enjoyable read. It doesn't stack up to Shakespeare, but it was a lot of fun to read. (The library wanted their copy back and I couldn't renew it because there was a list of people who wanted to read it. So it is a popular book. Now I shall have to rack my brain to remember the rest.)

PS: Ginny, I did write partial memoirs of my childhood during and right after WWII. It's for my children to read some day. Maybe the light will go on for them of how easy their life has been in comparison---and maybe NOT. At least they will get some insight into who their mother was, and why she often reacted in some puzzling ways and insisted on them doing certain things, like not complaining about what's for dinner or needing brand-name clothing, or taking almost everything for granted.

Sounds like my marriage, except that he was don Quixote and I was always the long-suffering Sancho Panza at his side. Hahahahahahah

I agree with Ella and Ann. This book is more of a memoir, about some of McCourts teaching experiences. He has written a book that is to primarily to entertain, and the anecdotes he's picked have been chosen for that purpose.

So, if it's to entertain, why did he tell about Hector and the magazine. Perhaps to show the other side -- the side that isn't thinking about the kids, the side that shows the grumpy non-teacher who's at odds with his wife. The teacher who once in a while makes mistake, and when he does he pays the piper == he lost his class, he lost his job. He's lucky he didn't lose his license. That entire incident seemed so out of character to me, so out of sync with the rest of the book.

Another out of sync was the field trip to the movies. It simply struck me as unbelievable. Especially what he left out. Did he get permission? Did he need it? What about his other four classes? One thing that made it partly plausible was that this was the 1960's, before the era of lawsuits and liability. Perhaps it was included to showcase Serena, the class leader, and his effect on her and her effect on him. We've all known Serenas -- so smart, so capable, who so frequently let their attitude and big mouth get them into trouble so that they never live up to their potential.

Ginny -- you faked a book report? I shared the story of the excuse notes from history with my Face2face group. One of them then told a similar story about a very bright girl who was to turn in a book report with three footnotes about the author of the book she had read. The teacher would randomly check the work of various students to ensure they were following directions. She could find none of the this student's footnotes. She had read the book, was perfectly capable of finding resources about the author. Instead, she made them up. That incident kept her out of National Honor Society her junior year.

I've read Angela's Ashes...I looked at "Tis".. in the bookstore and didn't fancy it. I find Teacher Man a re-hash of the other two. FMC is an annoying writer..just don't care for the Irish angst.. I lived it with my Dad.

I happened to see Jane Fonda on an interview show.. don't remember which one. Not a particular fan of hers...but the book looked interesting and I was familiar with many of the people in it. This was news in the making when my children were growing up. Politics aside it's another look at history from a different point of view. With kids in show biz, it gave me another view of the actors craft.

Colkot

P.S. Never done a book report, or diagrammed a sentence!!

I agree that this book is not as heavy as Angela's Ashes. (Not many books are.) I think FM was writing about himself as well as his students. Hey, why not. It was 30 years of his life. Those years had a huge impact on him and on his students. I think he shows how concerned he was to reach kids, to snap them out of their daily school daze and get them to realize they had something to say and that they could write. I think FM is very sincere in his effort.

I think it's only natural for him to want to know he reached them, that they had fun in class, that they liked his class. Don't we all want to know we've done a good job, whatever it is that we do?

I don't think FM is making fun of his students generally. He shows that sometimes he got frustrated and annoyed, even wondered why he kept on teaching. He shows us a number of sides of his profession.

I love the pictures he paints of his students - little vignettes here and there and sometimes a little zing thrown in. Some of the stories of the kids are so sad and others are so funny. The kids seemed very real to me. I think we see a portrait of a teacher who understands human nature and who learns a lot about what kids are like and what makes them sit up and listen. We see he's very carefully, usually, about their feelings and sensitivities. He's a person that many kids related to, felt they could be honest and open with because he was like that with them.

I think a memoir is a personal story about a person's life. In the memoir an angle is chosen. This angle is the purpose of the memoir. The angle is where the author will beam his light.

"Teacher Man" is about Frank McCourt's days as a teacher in the American school system. Through his teaching experiences, I believe, he is showing what is wrong with the educational system. To put it in a more positive way Frank McCourt is trying to show that the school system needs changing. The educational system is out of date for the children growing up in the twenty first century.

To read and finish the book, to know why Frank McCourt wrote the book, I must relate every experience to his present angle, teaching. To look at the book and not look at him as a teacher with many students would do the author a disservice.

For myself the main question is, what is FM trying to tell me about the educational system?

While reading the book, I feel empathy for the teachers and the students. Each person is trying to teach and to learn under an archaic system. Sometimes the textbooks are old, the buildings are old, the teachers are moonlighting, etc.

We hear about more money going into education for different needs. We never hear much about changing the whole educational system. Do we? I have heard of the Montessori program. I know it is or was an innovative system. Did it work?

Anyway, I find it impossible to read this book without thinking about education. How does the educational system need to change for the future, for future generations?

I think Frank McCopurt was a very talented creative teacher. His talent lay in the way he motivated his students and kept them with him. He was teaching them without them being aware of it. The Hector incident showed that teachers can and do lose their cool at times. However, I find it hard to believe many of the details described in this book. Being the excellent story teller that he is, I am looking upon these incidents as being exaggerated, "pumped up" for amusement and entertainment. To me, this book is 3/4 fact and 1/4 "story telling."

It has been awhile since I read "Tis" but my impression of that book was , "Why is he revealing all of his dirty secrets? His experiences with the "ladies of the night" completely turned me off. I still cannot figure out why that was included in the book! What was the purpose of that? What did he think it would accomplish?

. . . . his loneliness in a strange country with the ladies of the night?

You know, that is one of the things an immigrant from almost anywhere has a lot of trouble with---the signals between males and females---because in each country they are different and unique. I'm sure that words and actions that were considered "romantic" in Ireland are not so in the U.S.A. Since he was a young man with a normal sex drive (I think), it would seem to me that ladies of the night would be easy in comparison to an average U.S.A.-born woman with her priviliged life and straight teeth and sense of independence. That would be scary for any male who comes out of poverty from another country, I can assure you, since I've talked to a large variety of immigrant males who have made exactly that observation.

I also used to attend Irish dances, and the men tend to be heavy drinkers and are basically a rough-around-the-edges lot, and at every dance there was at least one fight with bloody noses. The fights never lasted long, and in the end the two involved would be fast friends and go have a beer together, but it turned American females OFF.

A good film to watch about the different perceptions of Irish/American male/female relationships is "The Quiet Man" with John Wayne. In that film the male was American, and his wife was Irish, and she expected him to "fight for her" and wouldn't sleep with him until he did even though they were married.

In fact, I think courtship rituals in other countries are absolutely fascinating with nuances that are like a unique language, which often cause trouble in cross-cultural male/female relationships. Just a for instance, when I first heard that the basketball star (forget his name) who was accused of raping a woman in his hotel room had been raised in Italy for the first 14 years of his life, I knew instantly how the messages between the two of them got crossed. No surprises there at all. Of course, being in the U.S.A. now, he has to learn what the messages are here, and be VERY careful not to make a wrong before he learns them totally, and sometimes the nuances are never totally learned. I know that from my own experiences with the American male, where messages have gotten so crossed and distorted that I've learned just to stay clear and totally distant, while I NEVER have that problem with a Continental European male.

Very odd, but true.

Maybe FM is exagerating, 'pumpin-up' his stories, but maybe not. Haven't we often heard that truth is stranger han fiction? Perhaps it happened just as he saw it. And maybe he is being very honest, giving the bad with the good.

Poor McCourt, trying so hard to be witty and effervescent like his hero, Gogarty. And then his very thesis about his hero is criticized for its 'solemnity'. I never heard of Oliver St.John Gogarty. For those who are interested, here is a brief summary:

Gogarty, Oliver St. John Joseph (1878-1957), was an Irish poet, wit, and literary personality. He became famous as a member of the Bailey Restaurant circle, which included Arthur Griffith, the founder of Sinn Fein, an Irish nationalist movement; the poet Seumas O'Sullivan; and the painter Sir William Orpen.

I like this line: "Everything he said was new to me, one of the benefits of being innocent and ill-educated."

McCourt was enthralled with the course on the history of English Literature, to "illustrate the development of English from Anglo-Saxon through Middle English through Modern English. Then when he eagerly bought this new perception to his own students, what a let-down! Beowulf? "Nah, that ain't English. You think we're stoopid?"

Here I had a brilliant thought! Wouldn't this have been an ideal place to have the class look at the difference between 'stupid' and 'ignorant'. They're not stupid, but they are ignorant, which is precisely the problem their teachers are trying to alleviate. They would do well to pay attention, so they don't wind up looking 'stoopid'.

Babi

Scrawler, thank you for that comparison of this book, 'Tis, and Angela's Ashes. I am at a disadvantage in his story because I have not read 'Tis. I am trying ti figure out the chronology here.

If you all read 'Tis, can you help fill it in?

He was in service first and then went to college on the GI bill, so he'd be about what age when the book begins?

Then he wrote Angela's Ashes when he was 66, he's funny about how old he was, I love authors who finally write in their 60's, like Penelope Fitzgerald, they are an inspiration to us all. Then as he wrote 'Tis he was still teaching, this time at Stuyvesant?

I found this interesting, Scrawler:

I think for the most part he was writing about other people and not really that much about himself. I also feel that he picked his subject matter to shock or dismay us rather to express what it really meant to be a teacher or student in the 1950s and 1960s.

Would we say he's writing more about himself in this or the students??

Now when we began several people said they lost respect for him in 'Tis. Since I have not read it, now is the time for those of you who don't like what he did here or in 'Tis to tell us why. And for thsoe of you who do like what he's doing to say why also.

Let's sort of line up: do we…kind of like the old Emperors at Gladiatorial Games (thumbs up or down?)

This is a super point in a sea of super points, Babi:

Is it that McCourt wanted to be liked, do you think, or that he was unsure of himself as a teacher and needed reassurance? Whenever he got the plaudits from his superiors, as Ginny mentioned, his relief was so enormous he was ready to sing, whistle, dance, or float down the hall

Somehow for some reason I would have thought that a teacher would be that excited if the subject were his students, not himself.

I am afraid for me Mr. McCourt, who does make me also laugh out loud, is coming somewhat under the dread "don't act with children or pets" rule in that the children and their needs here are somewhat clouding my judgment of his "charmingness."

I mean if he were teaching adults who provided a foil for his wit, I'd be laughing it up, but he's not.

I guess my own prejudice/ experience in face slapping here is showing, and it's like giving birth to hold back Miss Thomas and the Face Slapping so maybe tomorrow when I work up to it I'll let it fly.

Yes he admits he was wrong to slap Hector (but not to Hector). Why now? Maybe because Hector and his classmates AND the administrators who did not renew his contract might come forward and say oh yeah, a barrel of laughs, he slapped me one day for not opening my magazine.

OR maybe he's got that mea culpa thing: let it all hang out, I have it why should he be immune? Or maybe?

Just 'Tis.

I readily admit I don't know how to discuss Non Fiction.

I confess. Hahahaa If I were FM I'd say mea maxima culpa, it's my Irish roots.

So those of you who DO know what to do here, please pitch in, non fiction is not my forte.

IF it were fiction, we could look at all the stuff he's saying with a view to…his saying it, but because he's an icon of humor, and Irish humor at that, we can't?

Yet I just attended at the U of PA an hour and a half talk on a 2,000 year old Memoir by a person who had a pretty clear field: nobody else took notes while he wrote it, nobody else is alive who saw it, and thus it's truth, right? But as it turns out, despite the lack of personal conflicting testimony, they have actually figured out that Caesar was fudging a little here, understating there, doing XXX for this reason, being actually humorous for that reason, it's funny when you realize what he did, and did YYY for that reason and it's almost breathtaking. It LOOKS as straightforward as you can get, it's plain and simple: it's flat out….but it's not.

I don't think this is, either. I am not sure anything is. As Gilbert and Sullivan sang, "Things are seldom what they seem." I don't know why he wrote it but I sense a giant ego there, (which is good) and I don't know about his childhood but he's a long way from a child, isn't he? Even in the Hector incident he manages to say sort of innocently, that he didn't want to get caught up in an Irish/ Cuban war . I doubt sincerely that Hector's statements concerned the Irish and the Cubans, (but they could have, and that would have stuck in his mind, so maybe THAT'S why he included that story?!?) but at least Hector had enough presence of mind (and dignity) to walk out of the class. Some don't.

There is apparent marital discord, dismissed pretty quickly. Was there another divorce? The schools come and go and I can't keep track of them, but he's in shark infested waters. I just wish it weren't children (no matter how tough) that he was writing about.

WE are not writing this book. HE is. WE are not putting all this stuff in there, HE is. And I wonder if, as in fiction, we are….it's OK for….us to say what we think about what he's doing also? OR if it's not?

Now Scrawler has gone out on a shaky limb but she did go out, and said she thinks he's shallow. That's one of the questions in the heading, what do you think of him? Does this book enhance your opinion of him or detract from it? Let's make that tomorrows ONLY question and see what happens?

I love your thoughtful posts here….more….

Babi among your excellent posts, an excellent one on the Field Trip being unbelievable.

I had a few problems with it too. And I continue to wonder how he can write about actual people without their permission. I think you HAVE to fictionalize them. My grandmother wrote a book about the history of our family and she had to eventually fictionalize all of them because of all sorts of claims or something that might be made. I continue to wonder how he did that.

Babi, yes, this was something like the 6th grade. I read voraciously but the assignment for that 6 weeks was on a subject that I had already just read a book on and it was not allowed for some reason so I made a book up? And more than one. I thought I was smart and clever, because I read so many books anyway on every subject I thought that I was exempt. I wasn't smart at all. I think it would have been hard to look up every book these children wrote book reports on back then.

Colkot, so now you are finding him annoying in this book because of the Irish angst, which you recall from your own father so again, like the slap incident I remember, you may be finding a personal jolt.

What IS this Irish Angst thing? For those of us who really don't know, what IS Irish Angst?

Yes I am excited about your children being in Showbusiness, tell us about them, we have time. I got an entirely different view of acting when Ella and I saw them filming Vanity Fair at Hampton Court Palace, remember that, Ella? As per she found the perfect spot, I must have a billion photos, it's WORK! Before I saw that I am not sure I thought it was, it IS!

What do your children do?

Those are good points, Marni, on McCourt and his 30 years, this IS what he did, and on the memorable student portraits he's painted.

Which student would you say stands out for you (no looking!!) for you all, without looking back, the most?

???

Another good question for a ONE Question day, coming in the morning.

Excellent points, Hats, so you think McCourt's Agenda is:

To put it in a more positive way Frank McCourt is trying to show that the school system needs changing. The educational system is out of date for the children growing up in the twenty first century.

That IS another good single question for a day, you guys are GOOD!

I liked this, too: " To look at the book and not look at him as a teacher with many students would do the author a disservice."

So we have to consider all sides, it's a bit more complicated than the Irish romp it first appears!

Two more good ones, I'm keeping this post for our future questions:

I have heard of the Montessori program. I know it is or was an innovative system. Did it work?

I don't know, do any of you??

How does the educational system need to change for the future, for future generations?

Great stuff!

Edith Anne, a good point about why he included what he did in 'Tis, which of course I have not read, but I do wonder why he included some of the stuff in here he did, I would not have, why do you think?

I think he's fabricating a lot of stuff too, making it funny, he's talented that way.

Sierra Rose, thank you for the recommendation of A Quiet Man, I had no idea that…well…I've never been to Ireland so I am not familiar with Irish Eyes or anything else, those of you who do understand this, enlighten us. Fight for her? Jeepers.

Babi, thank you for that background on Gogarty, Oliver St. John Joseph (1878-1957), I never heard of him, either. Can any of us find a quote or a paragraph from him? An interesting point on the difference between ignorant and stupid. In some places "ignorant" is more insulting than the word "stupid," tho, carries more insult.

I did think he did a super thing in his adult community college classes when he noticed that:

That was something I should have known all along: the people in my classes, adultw from eighteen to sixty-two, thought their opinions did not matter. Whatever ideas they had came from the avalanche of media in our world. No one had ever told them they had a right to think for themselves…..I wanted to be the Great Liberating Teacher, to raise them from the I knees after days of drudgery in offices an dfactories to help them cast off their shackles, to lead them to the mountaintop, to breathe the air of freedom.

That's great stuff, (possibly a little tongue in cheek?) but noble and altruistic. Does he have a reason for continuing: "Once their minds were cleared of cant they'd see me as savior."

I am now beginning to wonder if something else is operating here than what I first thought. Maybe you all have seen it all along, and it just takes me longer than most. McCourt seems to have a….I don't know what you call it, a parallel wish to …..I don't know how to express it. You can see it there. He expresses a truly altruistic and noble thought and then…has to mock himself. It's almost….I dunno. But when this book is over I'm going to mark those passages and see if I can figure him out!!

Meanwhile tomorrow's question IS:

Focus for Wednesday: (or pose your own, we'll use the great questions that you all have raised in your posts for starters):

Would you say that this book has enhanced your opinion of FM or detracted from it? If you did not have an opinion of him prior to reading this book, what would you say you think of him thus far? Why?

The education system is not one size fits all. Therefore as many schools have discovered here innovation in teaching is needed. I think I mentioned before the way my grand Brooke is taught. They have to reach a certain level in reading, math and composition and then after that they work at their own level. They also get to choose their own subject matter for projects etc. They learn to research those subjects that interest them. This way of teaching ensures that the bright kids soar ahead and the plodders do not get left behind. There is a special activities program the children in the first two years of school have to participate in. From this specially devised program children with dyslexia, sight or hearing problems are picked up early. Parents are given instruction in this program and there is one adult constantly watching 5 children as they go through all the activities which include perception exercises and coordination exercises. My daughter has participated in supervision of this program with both of her girls.

Carolyn

Okay, I have not read Angela's Ashes or Tis, I have never heard of Frank McCourt until joining this book discussion. I will say after reading this book, I have absolutely no desire to read his previous books, or future books for that matter. Some of you have posted they are similar to this one and he whines about his childhood etc. in the previous ones also. Someone said he may turn out to be a ONE book author. I can see that is very possible if he continues to write to whine.

I have not read ahead, so I must say that chapters 13 - 17 would have to be phenomenal, for me to have much respect for Frank McCourt as a teacher or writer. He throughout this book, whether it be his memoir, factual, embellished or entertaining, has not shown me anything I can take away with me, to recommend this book to anyone. I taught in a school system for 15 years and can say there is nothing he taught me in how he taught his classes. I think most of the teachers out here will agree most of the stuff he shares, we already knew at some level or already heard of it or watched movies that portrayed the same situations, except in the movies most of the teachers really cared and was not afraid to continue to be the bestteacher possible. Some of the posts have mentioned he showed how the educational system fails the teachers and the students. I don't feel that is what FM was trying to show us. He managed to show me, that no matter what he wanted in life, he never put 100% effort into getting it. He used his childhood for excuses to not get further or do better. His wife could see right through him, and I was not at all surprised when his marriage also failed.

Like I said before....I see Frank McCourt as a man trapped in a child's body. He rebelled against teaching lesson plans, he broke the rules, and crossed all the boundaries a teacher should not cross. Slapping a student is beyond my imagination. I taught in a K-8 Catholic school for 15 yrs, and could not, and would not, ever put my hands on a child, no matter how frustrated I got. Some people will say, but he was in a classroom of disrespectful, illiterate, nun-motivated, poverty stricken, and un-caring students. That is truly NO excuse for slapping a student, because he refused to open his book. The incident with the student not having an excuse, him taking out his legs and causing him to fall to the floor, is just another case of Frank McCourt looking for and needing juvenile attention. He says he knew it was wrong and felt bad later, but I'm not sure I believe him, because of his past behavior. When he felt he was in a position to help a student who wrote of possible inappropriate sexual behavior at home he did nothing. He writes of what he could have done, yet chose to do NOTHING! I have been in that position in a classroom and my conscious would not allow me to do NOTHING..I knew it was my moral, legal, and humanistic right to report it to at least a school counselor or nurse.

I don't think I am being too hard on FM, because throughout his book he reminds us of how he sabotages his career, he tells us how he was a failure and how he never felt he should have ever been a teacher. He blames everyone and everything for his lousy life and attitude. When his wife finally tells him he is pathetic and needs therapy, he goes and walks out when he is pressured to speak and acknowledge why he is there. He says his therapist zeros in on the fact he is shy. I think that was far from the truth, and showed he was never going to take responsibility for anything, even his own health. He never came over to me as a shy man whatsoever, in his interviews he was smug, in the classroom he was egotistical. If anything I felt he was arrogant, self centered, un-caring, and hiding out in classrooms of students mostly ill-equipped so he could feel superior. He could not hold his own with his peers and superiors and that is why he knew he would be fired for the antics he pulled. He resented accomplished professors. He read well established authors to gain their insights and knowledge to help him feel well versed, and possibly to gain the courage to write in his future.

His story telling was not meant to teach students, as he stated, he knew they were to prevent him from teaching. I would not have been a happy parent or student had FM taught in my school. As any good teacher would do....if you are not educated to teach a subject, you further your own education to benefit the students and to give them the proper lessons, so they will learn the material necessary from your class. He admitted he was not educated enough to teach the material, yet never once did he say, he needed to gain the education in order to teach the material. Instead, he chose to tell stories or avoid teaching English grammar, diagrams, etc.

I was excited when Frank's daughter was born, that is the only time throughout the entire book, I sensed his true love and excitement for something. I thought he was finally going to tell us how Maggie inspired him to be a better person and teacher. Instead he tells of infidelity. Mea Culpa...did not pass his lips for that. I was not at all surprised when he chose to go to Trinity, a Protestant college, it was another part of his rebellious behavior. He said it was for the prestige, I think it was more for the pie in the eye, to the Catholic church and his Irish heritage.

In conclusion...I see Frank McCourt through his own eyes: Someone who hid behind a mask, lacked ambition to climb into the school system, adrift in the American dream, facing midlife crisis, failed teacher of High School English, hindered by superiors, principals and their assistants, or so he thought, angst and didn't know what ailed him, an outsider, foreigner, returned Yank, a Limerickman, not a part of the circle, smart cracker who got himself fired, itinerant substitute drifting from school to school, refused opportunities that would challenge him, adulterer, and as he agreed with the mother at the open house.... A FRAUD!

While parts of this book was humorous in the way he was able to give us an insight of the students lives and their communication skills, I can honestly say up to this point, I would give him a failing grade in all the other areas. Someone posted, you have to respect him for teaching 30 yrs in NY city schools, well I am sorry, I don't have to and don't see why I would. He never respected himself, or his position as a teacher so why would anyone else?

Since I never read ahead throughout this book, if FM can show me something more worthwhile he did with his final years of teaching and can change my mind, I say I would welcome it. Although, I did not see a climactic point in the book so I surely would not understand why it would be in the last four chapters. But.....if so, then, "Let them eat cake!"

This discussion was my first and I must say you all held my attention, you educated me with your life experiences and your thoughts. You all were very fun and exciting to share this book with, and I look forward to our next one. Thank you all! Oh...and Ginny, you were a great hostess, and I want to thank you for all your acknowledgments and kind words. You did a great job!

Ginny asks: "Would you say that this book has enhanced your opinion of FM or detracted from it? If you did not have an opinion of him prior to reading this book, what would you say you think of him thus far? Why? "

Neither enhanced nor detracted. I think he is just another human being struggling to understand things like the rest of us, and he's a brilliant writer. He's inventive in some areas, altruistic in some of his aims, and fails in other areas. First generation immigrants have added problems in that their social perceptions are often "off", and so functioning in this society is extra difficult on them. Therefore the Irish angst comes to the surface and he was very nervous about his performance because he had nothing to gage it against, which is why I think he walked on air when he received praise. It was such a relief. Not sure if the angst would be as intense if he were still in Ireland, where he fit and knew what to expect.

Personally I doubt that he is trying to change the educational system. I think the book is just what it is---a memoir. Nor can I see why the book is even recommended to educators except as entertainment. The US educational has specific and unique problems in this melting-pot society that very few other countries have, and I'm sure he was often puzzled and frustrated by it. I think I mentioned once before that I personally know a grade-school teacher who had 16 different language groups in her classes, everything from Vietnamese, to Japanese, to Chinese, to Laotian, to Thais, to Pakistanis, to Mexicans, Greek, Portuguese, and children from some of the slavic countries after the iron curtain fell, etc., etc. How she taught anything at all is beyond me.

A writer does not need permission from individuals if he is merely discussing the group as a whole and if he changes names to protect the innocent, and also uses bits and pieces of various characters he has known instead of writing only about one particular person so that person could be recognized. So he has to use artistic license, and I'm sure Serena was a composite person. I wouldn't be surprised if even Hector was a composite person.

Regarding the field trip to see the play, it was HORRIBLE. I'm sure he was at an absolute loss as to what to do with these ill-bred girl con artists. All I can say is that if he had been a father first, then he might have known what to do. I do think taking them to see such a play was a good idea, but when I took my children to plays or concerts or museums or exhibits (because I felt they should be exposed to everything cultural so they could feel at ease there, including classy restaurants) they first had a lesson on manners and behavior. If there was an infraction and they did not apologize for it immediately and change their behavior, the trip was over. No ands, ifs or buts. We were on the way to Disneyland once and they were fighting in the back seat. I asked them to stop twice, but they continued. So I got off on the first off-ramp and when they asked why we were going back I told them the trip was over, done, finished---until such time as they could behave like decent kids. They got the message.

I think McCourt should have given the girls lessons on behavior before, during and after, and if there was an infraction he should have turned them right around and taken them back, including making them leave in the middle of the play if he had to. I suppose he didn't do that just because he was such a novice and had no idea what to expect or what to do.

Anyhow, I thought the trip was funny and entertaining in the book, but there is no way I would have put up with in person, or made all the people around our group suffer through their bad manners. He doesn't mention it, but I sure hope when they all got back into the classroom he read them the riot act and gave them decent-behavior lessons.

Anyhow, he's a man I would enjoy having an in-depth conversation with.

. . . and having had several dogs, I think one of the best precursors to parenthood (or teaching) would be to have to train a dog. One has to be loving and consistent, with clear rules and clear consequences, and give praise at the right time with the right reward, and never, never, never be abusive. When one adds love, I believe most children would benefit greatly from that training even when inevitable mistakes are made.

I think FM is telling us stories about his students the way he told his classes stories. And I find them totally fascinating. Some are very short; others are longer; but together they show very sympathetically the complex world of teenagers that high school teachers face and try to deal with.

One story that I particularly enjoyed was the tragic romance of Sal, the Italian boy, and Louise, his Irish girlfriend. FM described their love in a beautiful way.

"....Louise spoke up, said they could say what they liked, but the Irish had the most beautiful babies in the world. Sal blushed. Cool Italian, nearly eighteen, with the mass of black curly hair, actually blushed. Louise laughed and we all laughed when she reached across the aisle to touch the redness of his face with her delicate white hand.

"The class went quiet when Sal took her hand and kept it against his face. You could see his eyes glistening with tears. What came over him? I stood with my back to the blackboard, not knowing what to say or do, not wanting to break the spell. At a time like this how could I go on with our discussion of The Scarlet Letter?...."

There is this absolutely lovely youthful love affair - so sweet and tender. And then Sal was clubbed with a 2 by 4 by the Irish boy. And Sal wouldn't even look at Louise anymore and then he transferred out of the class. FM didn't know what to do - whips himself over it, what he might have done but didn't.

I think FM describes many incidents where he didn't know what to do. They left their mark on him. I don't think he's whining.

I have not read "Angela's Ashes" or "Tis." After reading "Teacher Man," I am definitely going to read both books. Frank McCourt is a great writer. I believe his stories are true. He just is magically gifted to tell the truth in an entertaining way. Maybe our society isn't use to storytellers anymore. When we come in contact with these gifted speakers or authors, it's a shock and unbelievable.

Deems, I listened to the audio you gave us. I loved it! I think his Irish brogue is very romantic. I would have taken his class just to hear him speak. Seriously, as I listened to him being interviewed, I thought this man isn't pretentious. FM likes to share his life because he is a born storyteller. To me, if there is such a word, I would call him a born "truthteller."

As far as Hector, I felt very badly for Hector. I think at this point FM had hit the state of being burnt out. He needed to find his dream, writing. He needed to move out of the school system quickly.

This is another warning, I think. Teaching is not for every Joe Blow. A teacher must love people and large groups of people. I think FM spoke of a problem with intimacy in "Teacher Man." I did not mark the page. This must stem from his earlier life. Writing, I have often heard, is for those not minding solitude. Writing fits Frank McCourt.

Babi, I hope he will write about his retirement years. I hope he writes until writing becomes impossible for some reason.

What do I think of him? I think he's a decent writer who entertains us with stories of his life while teaching. I liked all of his books and was also quite taken with his story of the Italian boy and Irish girl. The man is an Irish romantic, at heart.

Ginny

In 'Tis, he writes of when he came to the US which was in 1949 and I would put him at the age of 18-20. He was born in the US and was drafted into the Army soon after he arrived here. After the war, he returned to NYC and went to college on the G.I. bill. Maybe he was 25 when he started college?? He does comment that he was a 29?? year old first year teacher.

Irish Angst??? Its hard to describe that term, IMHO. I am sure there are many ethnic angsts. Each one pertaining to that person's background.

Hats.......I respectfully disagree with you when you say, "Maybe our society isn't use to storytellers anymore. When we come in contact with these gifted speakers or authors, it's a shock and unbelievable.

On the contrary, I feel our society is so much more educated and need more from authors to capture our interest. Whether FM was burnt out and needing to find his dream, I still can not accept his crossing the line of hitting a student. Keep in mind, it was not his first or last time he did this. I agree with you he needed to move out of the school system quickly. I feel he never should have chose to be a teacher in the first place. He never once said he chose to teach because he loved it, to the contrary he admits, he was wearing a mask and hiding out. To quote him from his Prologue..., "How I became a teacher at all and remained one is a miracle and I have to give myself full marks for surviving all these years in the classrooms of New York. There should be a medal for people who survive miserable childhoods and become teachers, and should be first in line for the medal and whatever bars might be appended for ensuing miseries."

Let me share with you, I too survived a miserable childhood. I too became a teacher, and I loved going to school every day feeling I could contribute to the minds of kids and show them respect, and trust. I can't imagine any teacher needing to do the things he did, just to prove himself to a classroom of ill-equipped students. I never thought of giving myself a medal nor did I feel I deserved one. My medal was giving myself the ability to acknowledge the wrong in my life, correcting it, overcoming it and choosing to have a life without shame, abuse, or alcoholism as an adult. I chose see my slate clean when I got married and had children of my own, and vowed to break the patterns. He had more opportunities in his adult life than most of us. I guess I would have been more impressed with him had he showed his students and readers how he overcame his trials and tribulations. All his fame and acknowledgments in the world will not be enough for him. My advice to FM is to go back in therapy, get the help that was offered to him years ago when he ran away from it. He was 66 years old when he wrote his first book. Its never too late and you are never too old to accept help that will bring you to the peaceful place in life you are looking for. Then write a book on that in your retirement years. I would welcome it.

Bellamarie, I think oral storytelling is becoming a lost art. I do believe local festivals and public libraries are trying to bring the oral arts back again. At the end of the day most people do not sit down to hear a book read aloud by a family member. Neither do most families sit down together to hear an elder tell a story from the past. People are struggling to make a living away from home. When families made a living together on a farm, times were different. It seems we now have more time. At the same time more time is spent making a living.

Then, there are all our technological toys which I also love. However, these toys take away our need to create. Remember the Brontes? The sisters and brother spent time writing plays, playing roles from their plays and writing stories, such a different time from our rush, rush society.

I see Frank McCourt as a man from the old school. Oral storytelling is in his blood. In the school system, he definitely did not fit. Just because he did not fit in the educational system does not define the whole man as dreadful.

In a roundabout way, there is the other lesson. If your in a job that deals closely with people and you hate it, get out of there quickly. Otherwise, you are emotionally and might physically endanger the lives of others.

"To quote him from his Prologue..., "How I became a teacher at all and remained one is a miracle and I have to give myself full marks for surviving all these years in the classrooms of New York. There should be a medal for people who survive miserable childhoods and become teachers, and should be first in line for the medal and whatever bars might be appended for ensuing miseries."

_____________________________________________________________________

Frank McCourt is admitting a failure. I think this confession is to be applauded. It is also an admonition. If you have suffered a raw childhood, stay away from the school system. It most likely is the very stressor you don't need in your life. FM is admitting a difficult truth. He could have written he enjoyed a glorious hullabaloo everyday in the classroom. No, he chose to tell his reality.

Bellamarie, thank you for using the words "respectfully disagree." It helped me think without being nervous. After all, I am speaking to a teacher. I would like to say teachers share an intimate life with our children everyday. This is why I think teachers deserve to be honored by society.

I grew up in a similar ethnic background as did many of the students portrayed in this book. I remember as a small child listening to stories told by my Irish great-grandmother in her lilting Irish brogue about the Old Country. I wish I could remember some of them, but I was to small when I heard them. I just remember her voice. Both my Greek and Irish grandfathers told fascinating stories not only of their lives in their native countries, but also of their early lives in America. I think I learned more from these stories about life than I did from anything else. As I grew older I became fascinated with biographies and memoirs.

But "Teacher Man" loses some of its fascination because of the "subject" matter that McCourt chose to write about. I once went to a writer's convention were there was a Hollywood writer who insisted that film producers wouldn't produce a movie unless it had a sex scene in every other frame of the movie. At the time they were talking about "Face/Off." If you've seen the movie than you might know what I'm talking about.

To me "Teacher Man" was written with not only having a best seller in mind, but also a possible Hollywood movie. Hollywood tends to like the tragic side of ethnic cultures. After all he already had one major success with "Angela Ashes." I don't think "Teacher Man" was written for anything other than entertainment purposes. I don't see anything in this book that would enhance either his life or the lives of the students that he wrote about.

I have to say that he does tell a good story, but so did my grandparents. Was McCourt stories true or not? I'd say that they probably had a grain of truth, but I see them being included not to enlighten us either about his life or his students life in a positive way, but simply for entertainment purposes.

Although, I did like "Angelas Ashes" I found even that book hard to believe. My Irish background was very different from his. My grandfather used to tell tales of his mother when she first arrived in America and the difficulties they had. But I had the impression that no matter how hard things got with my ancestors they pulled themselves up by their boot straps and went on with their lives. I don't see this idea from McCourt. Someone here said that he "whined" alot blaming others for his misfortunes. That's the impression that I also got.

So in short, Ginny, to answer your question this book did nothing to enhance my opinion of McCourt. In fact I was very much upset by the way he portrayed his students. Since I was one of those students I don't feel that I was either stupid or ignorant. In fact most of us searched for knowledge. We just didn't find it in our school system.

Hats......You are more than welcome. I do respect each person's opinion, and love the fact we are all different in thought and feelings, to not only this book but also as Frank McCourt as a writer and person.

Again, I have to respectfully disagree with you Hats with this post.."Frank McCourt is admitting a failure. I think this confession is to be applauded. It is also an admonition. If you have suffered a raw childhood, stay away from the school system. It most likely is the very stressor you don't need in your life. FM is admitting a difficult truth. He could have written he enjoyed a glorious hullabaloo everyday in the classroom. No, he chose to tell his reality."

I feel a classroom can be and has been a source for many teachers to overcome their raw childhood, by giving themselves, their knowledge and talents to children who could also be going through much of the same experiences they did. Teachers do far more than teach, they nurture, they help children build trust, self confidence, self image and self esteem. They spend more time with students then the actual parents do overall. I have talked personally with my fellow peers in and out of the teacher's lounge. I must share with you, it was most often the case they chose to go into teaching because of the need and will to right some wrongs in their own childhood experiences in their home, and in their classrooms growing up. So...YES, applaud them and I too will applaud FM for you pointing out, he did admit his failures in the beginning and throughout the book. I still have major issues with the fact he did not take advantage of the opportunities in his life to help him overcome his fears and failures. And so I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree on some points.

I will use his own word as I have done pretty much throughout my posts, "Ben Johnson said, "Language reveals the man. Speak that I may see."

Sorry if this happened to be ahead of the chapters for this week..... :{ I decided to finish the book today, since I will not have the time for reading next week.

Hats, thank you for the responses. I enjoy lively discussions and differences of opinions. Have a great day!

Scrawler #204...."In fact I was very much upset by the way he portrayed his students. Since I was one of those students I don't feel that I was either stupid or ignorant. In fact most of us searched for knowledge. We just didn't find it in our school system."

Am I understanding you actually were in one of Frank McCourt's classrooms, or was that a general statement? I very much appreciated reading your entire post, I so agree with pulling yourself up by your boot straps and going on. Koodooos to YOU Scrawler!

GINNY, your praise is, I fear, misplaced. I'm not the one who wrote the post about the field trip. In fact, I am apparently behind in my reading, as I have not yet encountered the field trip or the slapping of Hector. I'm reading slowly, a chapter at a time, and noting what interests me in each one.

Right now my eyebrows are up re. the first encounters with Alberta Small McCourt. Should I consider her a pragmatist? A no-nonsense person? Or a lady with a sharp tongue who strikes me as being unpleasant to live with. Well, it's early times yet.

Speaking of unpleasant people, what of Edward Dahlberg? What a horrid man, constantly in need of having his ego stroked. And if he is such a renowned and successful writer, why does his wife have to take jobs from time to time 'to keep them going'? When he made that snide remark to McCourt, on first being introduced, of "still a high school boy are you?", I wished it had been me. I longed to smile and reply, "Oh, yes, but I have at least learned my manners."

I could not imagine FM going back there after that. He hoped to 'profit from his learning and wisdom'?!! But he said it himself: "I didn't have the confidence of an eggshell." I bear that in mind, as I think it explains so much about McCourt during these years.

Babi

"To put it in a more positive way Frank McCourt is trying to show that the school system needs changing. The educational system is out of date for the children growing up in the twenty first century." ( Hats).

I agree, Hats, I believe he does have that agenda, we need to ask that later on and see near the end what everybody thinks, thank you!

Carolyn, that sounds like a very enlightened school! I agree with you too that one size definitely does not fit all in education!

Thank you BellaMarie for those passionate remarks in post 194, and following posts, SO beautifully written. I had forgotten the tripping incident.

And thank you for the very kind remarks, but I hope you are not going anywhere!!! , We're only to chapter 10 and only half way thru the book, we've got 2 more weeks to go!!

So you are seeing him as somewhat distanced and hiding behind a mask. Is there a certain insouciance that we sense or is it there as a defense. He's a fascinating, topic, isn't he?

I think that might make a super question for a future day… (I am liking this one question thing, it's getting some super remarks). I think that might make another future theme question. I like thinking about the masks people wear. Do we all wear them? It's very hard to write a memoir and stay behind a mask, I would think. In some ways tho the teacher IS a mask….of….education or responsibility? We expect certain behavior, the question is when is the deviation innovative and when is it ?

But you REALLY must write your books, there is a lot of power in your writing. In fact, I must say you guys burned up the board here on this one, it's like fireworks on the 12th instead of the 4th, love it. I like this one quesiton stuff! Of course if the question does not suit you, you can always talk about whatever does, too.

The "pen and the spring" thing, to me was a wash out, what did you all think? I thought HUH? I had to read that several times, did you find that instructive?

Sierra Rose, a great post, 16 languages in one room, what on earth did she do? That would stop even Superman! Yes I agree that business about the Field Trip From Hell was really something else, maybe he exaggerated it, tho?

Loved your trip to Disneyland experience, I've pulled off the road, myself, many times. And this is a point I keep thinking, myself, we're almost forced here into a sort of double personality::

Anyhow, I thought the trip was funny and entertaining in the book, but there is no way I would have put up with in person,

Yeah some of these things are a riot but if we had to be the ones standing there, we'd not appreciate them, I think.

That's a good point Marni in that McCourt is talking to us just like he did the students (and with the same effect, it would seem

, hahahaa, some of us are listening and appreciating him and some of us would like to throttle him, it's rare to have this disparity in reaction, I am kind of enjoying it. (And appreciating your cordial exchange of views, too).

Good point on his caring about the young lovers, that was a nice episode showing quite a few of his good qualities.

Hats, I thought I saw that too, on a problem with intimacy noted by McCourt, great job. Yes his accent and his charming ways do beguile, in some things, they got me the first reading, too.

Thank you, Ann, for his age when he began teaching, I was reading ahead on page 147 for the next section and I do see that you are absolutely right: 28 or 29.

I kind of wish he had described Irish Angst, maybe that's what Angela's Ashes was about??

I think that was a great debate, BellaMarie and Hats, that was beautiful, we should send you guys to the G-8 Conference! You can represent me any time.

So we're thinking now that "All can't teach? Or should not? Teaching probably represented quite a step up as he said several times, and from the dock work, too and his upbringing, something to admire. Then he got into it and it wasn't quite what he had thought, if you look at it THAT way it IS funny, but if you have taught you might not see the humor for the rest of the stuff.

I still don't know what the words Donkey on a Thistle, which he has titled Part II on page 111 with mean?

Do any of you? Why is that Part II, by the way?

Scrawler and Hats, good points on the oral traditions which are falling away and which some are trying to regenerate, when you look at it like that, it seems kind of romantic. However I do have to agree again with Scrawler that the subject matter here doesn't quite make it, doesn't carry the same fey connotation with what he's reporting. So Scrawler you see Hollywood all over this one? (I have not seen "Face/Off.").

Yeah this would probably make quite a movie, I had not thought of that.

Will you all go to see it?

Now don't run off here, we're just getting started and on Saturday we will take up Chapters 11 and 12. For Friday I'd like to try something REALLY FREAKY!

But what did you all think of the SCAB episode, right at the end of Chapter 10? Where did your sympathies lie and why?

For tomorrow, since we're half way through, here's one suggestion for a Topic Thursday, as always you can substitute your own questions or thoughts, but let's try a double edged sword:

How would you describe McCourt in one word if you had to tell somebody else about his experiences described here? Why?

And...

If you were his Supervisor, what grade would you give him in teaching? Why?

Babi, I'll go back and quote you directly so as to be more clear, you were BRILLIANT!! hahaha

On Dahlberg, I agree, what a nasty insignificant flea. Don't you wonder how many people get away with that type of behavior because they have admirers. (Why, again, did he have admirers? I have never heard of him).

I have not had too much experience with the famous but the few I have known however briefly have been wonderful men, like Wally Lamb for instance, what little I have corresponded with him, the man is a saint. Look how good he was to us.

Just as well, I think, I don't know too many famous people, I tend to gush and such, but it's been my experience that the greater the man the nicer he is, I have met a few important men at the home of various relatives in my time, all of them really nice men. NONE of them Dahlbergs. He would have destroyed me in a heartbeat! I actually sat up and wanted to clap when McCourt said that about manners!

Babi, you are absolutely right! You DIDN'T say something about the Field Trip, well who did? I guess you're all so sparkly it dazzles the eye, the overall effect. At any rate, I liked it and agreed with it!

Where is everybody@?! Ollie Ollie Oxen FReeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, come on by and set a spell! Just jump right in, your opinion is as good as mine (better, you probably know who said what!)

hahahaa

Ok what was it Johnson said, open your mouth and I'll tell you who you are?

Heerrrr's Edward!

(Quotes by Edward Dahlberg from Brainyquote.com)

It is very perplexing how an intrepid frontier people, who fought a wilderness, floods, tornadoes, and the Rockies, cower before criticism, which is regarded as a malignant tumor in the imagination

I would rather take hellebore than spend a conversation with a good, little man.

Every decision you make is a mistake

Hardly a book of human worth, be it heaven's own secret, is honestly placed before the reader; it is either shunned, given a Periclean funeral oration in a hundred and fifty words, or interred in the potter's field of the newspapers back pages.

Ambition is a Dead Sea fruit, and the greatest peril to the soul is that one is likely to get precisely what he is seeking.

(I kind of like that last one?)

We can only write well about our sins because it is too difficult to recall a virtuous act or even whether it was the result of good or evil motives.

We are always talking about being together, and yet whatever we invent destroys the family, and makes us wild, touchless beasts feeding on technicolor prairies and rivers.

No people require maxims so much as the American. The reason is obvious: the country is so vast, the people always going somewhere, from Oregon apple valley to boreal New England, that we do not know whether to be temperate orchards or sterile climate.

Man hoards himself when he has nothing to give away.

It takes a long time to understand nothing.

And many others, some of which don't bear repeating.

I like those questions in the heading, for lack of better ones, (please suggest some if you like) because they make you think and summarize in one word and one grade where we are SO FAR in the text. No fair peeking ahead.

Tomorrow we'll try something really unique in a book discussion so hold on!

But for today those are quite intriguing questions, more difficult to answer than it would appear.

I got up thinking that for some reason reading this book reminds me of my own take about Cicero.

It's really quite similar in a way. Hats' noticing somewhere his mention of having a problem with intimacy and his own sort of sense of self deprecating humor (which as Marylin noted is not combined with humility or is it?

Would you say he was an humble person or not?)

Good question! Which would you say? I think that's corollary to the questions.

But I got up thinking about Cicero.

For years, YEARS, I blithely used to talk about Cicero's end in classes in somewhat of a funny sort of humorous take. It's true he would not shut up, he would not stop criticizing the government, Augustus, and it's true he picked the wrong horse politically. He made mistakes. He was trying to keep afloat on a rickety raft in one of the most turbulent and dangerous seas of history, he was a Nicholas II on the eve of the Russian Revolution. Parallels there, too, actually. Same end.

And so because he would not shut up he was killed and his head was cut off and put on the Rostra in Rome and somebody's wife, Fulvia was it, can't remember whose, took her hatpin and stuck it through his tongue.

So, you might say insouciantly, and somewhat humorously, THERE'S an end (I'm sure she thought so) for somebody whose tongue gets him in trouble.

It's easy to be glib and throw things off if you have that type of mind, if you see things, (in self defense?) as funny, if you can see the humor in all situations.

Humor is entertaining, it's not serious, and it allows you to look at serious things happily: to push off events and people. Yet for some reason most of the major humorists of our time were in actuality serious and some sorrowful people, very serious, and some of them living tragic lives. Costello, of Abbot and Costello, dear Red Skelton, Jerry Lewis if you read his books: dead serious, Lucille Ball, the tears of a clown.

It was not until SeniorNet and our Classics Project that I read the new book Cicero by Anthony Everitt and found out the real story under all the glossed over clichés. How Cicero really died, how tragic and heroic his death, how brave he really was. The terror of his last few days, his trip by sea (he was the original Monk when it came to water journeys) the flies in his bedroom and the tightrope he walked with his own honor which got shakier and shakier over a sea of knives, his concern for his wife and children, his flight, and then what he did when his tightrope was set on fire.

His last days were not funny and they were not things of jest, shame on me, when the real facts which peeped out under all the laughing were revealed they were sober and horrific and he was a true hero, right up to the last.

And this book, the attitude or tone of this book reminds me of me and Cicero. I think Frank McCourt could make anything funny, (that is, he WOULD write it as funny), that's his way, that's who he is.

His attitude seems to be here I am, an Innocent Abroad. You can all relate to me. Look what rude things are said and done to me (and they are, to all of us). Look how my hopes were dashed, but I'm still standing. Here's what I thought, here's what I did and he DOES have moments of inspiration and brilliance. He taught 30 years in inner city schools, it's like encountering Rip Van Winkle: TELL US how on earth you managed to do that!

That alone is worth buying the book. He managed with humor, when his own life apparently was falling apart, and so his memoir here is about HIM. It's all about HIM, if we had not glommed on to that, we should.

A teacher who might have encountered other teachers like him might say it's not supposed to be, this milieu this setting should not BE all about him, but it is. I think we have all encountered teachers for whom teaching was "all about them." It depends on YOUR own take on education, it really does.

I am sure every parent would love to have their child exposed to a famous author. That's what those Artists in Residence programs do. Yet I hear that some of them, like, for instance Robert Frost, for all his gentle poetry ("you come, too) was an extremely difficult man in person, do any of you know anything about him? Wrote one way, lived another.

In the second half of the book McCourt makes some really telling statments about the teaching profession in general, we don't want to ignore them, he is saying them. Maybe we can figure out what his frame of reference is. But this one is about him. This discussion, however, is about US, and what we truly think.

So 'Tis more difficult than it looks! hahaha His book. Let them write one if they need to say something. Our thoughts.

So we have the choice as readers, and we make it, whether or not we want to admit it, as to whether or not we can feel sympathy for him or whether or not we can totally ignore these kids, and what HE SAYS happened. (Some of these kids, probably millions of whom, you saw the statistics) would say he was the greatest, most innovative, wonderful teacher and personality who ever lived. Some would not.

There are always positives and negatives to every person and story. Our question today asks how we rate him so far and why, and how we would rate what he's done in teaching SO FAR ONLY, and why: the good, the bad and the ugly, and give a grade now half way thru.

Humor is a defense, and men seem to use it more than women, have you read any of the stories of the workplace where men tend to get out their aggressions acceptably using humor?

Does it make a difference if you hear him in Deems' audio or if you can't? Does that make a difference as to your sympathies for or against him?

What are your thoughts today?

Ginny, I have written down the title and author Cicero by Anthony Everitt. I am hoping my library owns a copy of the book. You certainly make the man's life sound very interesting. Is it possible to discuss here in the book discussions?

I have been thinking about your Focus Thursday question all morning. My one word to describe Frank McCourt is "frustrated." I have two. I will choose this one.

Frank McCourt is writing about his frustration. He is not able to reach the students. I do believe he would have loved to meet the needs of those students. Unfortunately, there are too many students in the classes, the students may not find help at home. The principal and vice principal have their agendas. There does not seem room to move in a different direction for the sake of the classes. If you do, you face being fired. The students are in high school. Years have passed. What should have been done, as far as discipline and education, is a vast abyss. It is too late to begin filling the hole. At some point, it is too late to put a filling in a cavity. Then, there are volumes of papers to mark. At the same time the teacher is leading his own life which might have gone out of orbit for awhile.

All of these reasons are why I use the term frustrated to describe Frank McCourt. I truly believe he is a brave soul. He did not write a book about teaching being one big, easy success day after day. He told the brutal truth. For that reason, I have no anger against him.

Maybe the students are the donkeys. It's hard to get the students moving without any extra help. The thistle is all the poor teacher is armed with to get the attention of the students. This is all my poor brain can think of as an answer. The donkey and thistle puzzles me too.

Perhaps, another poster knows and answered this question. I might have missed the post.

If I had to describe McCourt in one word to tell someone of his experiences here I would choose, "STORYTELLER". This seems to be what he is most known for by all his students, and peers.

If I had to describe him from what I have read so far as a person, I would say self-indulgent, and self destructive. Throughout this book he does everything for self purposes. He knows he owes the students and his superiors more, yet he always chooses to serve himself. He knows if he chooses to break the rules what the consequences are and still defies them. He is aware he could lose his teaching certification, yet he risks even that with self indulgent behavior.

When any of you point out he managed to teach in New York city schools for 30 years as if it were a real feat, I feel frustrated. Did you ever ponder the fact he stayed in New York city school systems because he gambled on the fact they needed teachers so badly they would not take away his certification? Did you ever ponder, did he choose to stay because of the ill-equipped students? He could see himself in those type of students. He is aware he is different, and possibly would not be accepted in other school systems. I try my best to stay open minded when I read posts that say he wanted to show the failings of the system. I just can't see it. Like he said, "You don't have to respond to every stimulus. If it leaves you cold, then it leaves you cold."

I would give him a grade of C, he didn't fail in teaching, but he did not rise to the heights of an A. I guess I feel like he felt grading the students, the red pen can easily grade a passing score.

I have a question. If Frank McCourt had been given the chance to teach at private school, would he have been a better teacher? Were all of the schools he taught at public schools?

BellaMarie 776, I didn't go to school where McCourt taught, but I was a student in high school between 1959 - 1962, so I think I can say I understand what his students were going through. I came from the same ethnic groups as mentioned in this book. McCourt portrays the students as being wasteful and unappreciative and I don't think the students were that way at all. When he describes the sandwich situation he describes it as being wasteful which to him it was because of his background, but to the students in 1959 they were just trying to get his attention.

Somewhere in this book McCourt says that the students had a difficult time talking to their fathers and mothers. That hit a cord with me. My father was overseas until I was two years old and when I was old enough to ask questions I couldn't ask them because he wouldn't talk about the war. Any more than my husband would talk about what happened to him in Vietnam. But when you are a teenager, these are the vary questions you would like to have answered.

It wasn't that we were disrespectful towards are parents; it was just that we didn't understand what it meant to go through a Depression or live through World War II. Any more than my children understand what it was like to live through the Vietnam War.

Our parents believed in education because for them it had been difficult to get a good education. What they didn't understand was the type of education we were receiving at the time was not the same as what they thought we were getting.

So in short some of us rebelled. Some like myself turned inward and sought out those like the Beat poets who seemed to be speaking to us. Others acted out more violently and more externally. But for the most part because we weren't getting what we wanted from our home situations we looked in other places to find answers to our questions.

I have to disagree with those that say that the oral storytellers are fading from our world. We might not see oral storytellers in American homes as much because there are so many other distractions, but I think if you looked closely into other cultures you'd find that oral stories are still being told even today.

If I were to describe McCourt in one word I would say it would be: TORTURED. He felt he was still being tortured from the past and because he felt this way it affected his present situations. I think it is important for us to see ourselves not only in our own eyes, but also in the eyes of others. But it is how you see yourself that is important.

I can remember my grandfather telling me how when he first came to America it was difficult for him to get a job and most of the Americans that were born here in this country looked down on him. But as he told me he tried not to let this attitude bother him and went to night school to learn English. So even though he new about five other languages he made the effort to be a good American. But he never forgot his heritage and I was lucky enough in that he passed that pride and respect on to me; so I wouldn't forget my roots.

But I think in McCourt's case he didn't have pride or respect in the place where he came from and so he couldn't understand the ethnic values of his students. It is interesting that although McCourt's books have been bestsellers, they were not appreciated in his home town.

FM taught for quite awhile at Stuyvesant High School. This is a very well-known and special school in NYC. FM was OFFERED the position after he had taught in other schools and had some of the problems we've read about. I think the right people recognized his special teaching talents and he ended up in the right place.

Here's an article about Stuyvesant High School. Down towards the bottom is a small blurb about FM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuyvesant_High_School

Marni

Marni, thank you for the link. Frank McCourt has reawakened my interest in the educational system. Did he intend for that to happen to his readers? Is this awakening just happening by chance? As an author did he hope to draw our attention back to the school system to see its flaws?

I just don't feel the bright light is to be beamed on the students. I think Frank McCourt wants the school system revamped. When this happens, the conditions for the students will improve.

I am having a hard time giving a grade. I am closest to picking a 'c.'

"Searcher". He was searching where he fit in, within the society, with women, with his past, with the educational system, with the students, with fame and fortune, and with his desire to write and be a writer.

It was a long search, but he seems to have found where he fits in. Teaching was one way of getting there and finding more "stories".

I do hope he writes about getting older and some of his thoughts about being a senior citizen. I can imagine he has more good stories to tell, and I hope he's found some sort of peace and acceptance of his personal life.

Up to the present part of the book I would give him a "B-" in teaching, with the feeling he will grow and become outstanding as he gets a handle on the above things he's searching for.

SierraroseCA I agree with the description of a "Searcher."

but also because i can't tell how well his methods are working. The "write an excuse for......" excercise seemed to be brilliant. I can't figure out whether the emphasis of analysis should be on his teaching style or his students attitude. Teachers take a lot of heat for students not learning when they have to deal w/ the student and all his/her baggage that comes to them everyday, before they can begin to think about teaching them content that they see as useless.

I would agree w/ "searcher" and w/ "frustrated" and a teacher could start out w/ many brilliant/creative methods and just get frustrated w/ students not responding because they have so many other things on their minds. And FM may get to the point of being a great teacher. Stuyvesant is obviously a good school and i'll be curious to see why he was asked to go there. Someone must have seen something promising in what he was doing.

I like the idea of his writing about "old age." That should be a hoot!....jean

One of our most loved and most brilliant teachers was a story teller. We knew we could get him off on a tangent if we wanted but we learned so much about life from this teacher. However he also expected if we did not get the class work done because we had diverted him for our own ends we would have to finish it at home. We still loved his story telling regardless of the fact we knew homework would be a few hours that night. Life is history in the making and our teacher told us about history in the stories about his life and the life of his ancestors.

One thing that has delighted me is the way the teachers share with the kids at Brookes school. Several of the teachers have been pregnant or their wives have been pregnant. The kids have seen ultrasounds of the babies. The teachers have had sessions where they have invited the children to share tips on caring for babies. Even the shyest child will stand up and share a tip about babies. I think that is so wonderful and the children are learning all the time. The children who come from bad homes have the chance to learn how children should be cared for and loved. There is a lot more to teaching I think than just maths and reading in the junior schools.

carolyn

Thank you for clarifying for me what you meant when you posted you were there. I graduated in 1970 from a very nice High School in a small town in Michigan. I saw my teachers as very caring and well educated. I had much respect for my teachers and had never heard of schools like FM taught at. Our biggest discipline problem was kids wanting to see if they could get away with skipping a class and walk uptown to the Woolworth's who had a fountain stand. In my Senior year there was what the blacks called a "walk out day". I was terribly bored in my classroom and being a bit of a rebel, I decided to leave the room and go across the street and sit in on the black walk out. My black friends cracked up and gave me high five for being the only white person there. My principal said he just did not know what to do with me. I told him I only did it because I was so bored in my classroom. He talked with my teacher and she spoke with me and asked my opinion on how I felt she could make her class more interesting. I named my first child after her. She was the first person I can remember who actually wanted to show me that what I thought mattered. She encouraged me to run for a position on student council and I did and was voted in. I found this to be amazing to be a part of the system that could make a change. Our Senior class broke the dress code and the school implemented jeans, and relaxed clothes could be worn. As a grandparent today I am not so sure I would like that, but back then it was about having the right to say something and be respected for it.

I too was raised to never ask questions. Once I got to High School my mind was nothing but filled with questions. I appreciated my Italian aunt and uncle sitting with me for hours and telling me all about when they lived in Italy. Once I was married my husband, my sister, her husband and I traveled to my aunt's home in upper Michigan and spent the entire day just sitting while she told us stories of my deceased father and how he met my mother. I tell my kids and grand kids stories all the time. They are probably tired of hearing them..lolol As I have said, I am writing children's stories because I feel there is so much of today's society that needs reminders of yesteryear.

Thank you Scrawler for your story...we all have stories in us, some maybe more interesting then others.

Because I highly respected teachers in my school and being a teacher myself, I guess I want so much to come to the end of this book and see Frank McCourt tell me he found some peace in his life. Frustration was the second word I would have chose and I am so glad to see all of you using that. He is frustrated with so many things and yes, tortured too with his childhood and his angst and ailments. He seems a man without a home.

My word describing McCourt would be creative. It is hard to pick just one word, as I agree with all the other ones mentioned. Creative people do not march to the same beat as everyone else - they are constantly searching for new ways to do things and are frustrated when their ideas do not materialize. They must put up with a lot of criticism from people who are not on the same level of thought or creativity. I think he was bored with the mandates of the public educational system and his jaunt to Dublin was made in hopes to escape from it, to rise above it.

McCourt's teaching methods were not appreciated in the public schools so his teaching at Stuyvesant was the perfect place for the likes of him. He reminds me of a "free spirit" -like a flower child of the 60's, tasting life to the fullest until he found his niche.

Ginny, I'm sorry I haven't read past Chapter Five yet, although I read the book once some months ago but I have been reading the posts and they are just great. However, I need to add a few remarks that are general, I'll get with it, hopefully, and continue reading attempting to glean something insightful to post.

"He managed with humor, when his own life apparently was falling apart, and so his memoir here is about HIM.

I admire anyone who can cope with tragedy with humor; a trait few of us are capable of and few of us are able to write of our experiences in the manner that FM did.

Memoirs are about the writer's impressions of his OWN experiences; that is the definition of a memoir, a good one. I doubt that FM meant the book to be about his students or the administrative staff or anyone else but HIMSELF!

We have a few of his students' reviews of his teaching methods; two or three in the radio interview that Deems provided us with and if one wanted to search the web for more I have an idea you could find them. I did a brief search and came up with this one - a writer himself - who begged to get into FM's class:

An article about FM

I would have also begged to get into his class. I loved the man, his stories, his methods, this book. Obviously, there are many who feel the same.

I have no idea what a supervisor would have thought of FM or what grade he would have given him; however if I were a student in his class it would have been an "A." And if I were the parent of a child in his class I would have invited him to my house for dinner, no matter how humble the house, how poor the food; somehow I doubt that would mattered to McCourt.

GINNY, I plead in advance for your forebearance; you're going to awfully tired of me and my corrections. The line about manners wasn't something McCourt said. I had written that I wish it had been me, because I wanted to come back at the Dahlberg jerk with that rejoinder. Of course, if I actually had been there, I probably would have been too shocked and embarrassed to say anything, just like McCourt.

I won't be around much the next couple of days. My son and granddaughter are coming in for the weekend. Yay!

Babi

Chiming in here, before Thoughtful Thursday is over:
One word no one has used yet for FM is poignant:
incisive, in one way, and profoundly moving, in another way.
Does that fit?

I can't give FM a grade after Ginny has drilled into us, who have been her Teachers-Helpers, Auxilia,
in the SeniorNet Latin classes only to praise or to give constructive criticism.
So I would tell FM: you're doing a great job, but you could try even harder. Eh, Ginny?

Mippy, Now you've given it away! I thought Ginny's praise in Latin class was because I was just brilliant. Was it a ruse? Ginny???

I loved the book. He taught for thirty years-about 5400 days. He told us an overall view from all of those days. His failures and triumphs, his discouragement with the people and system, his encouragement from some of the successes he had-all the warts were there. Sure, he made some bad choices. Who hasn't? Having taught for thiry-four years did not make me a super-teacher. Just getting through some years with some of the kids we had was a job in itself.We all tried our very best not to harm one of the 125 students we saw each day. Today when I see some of them that I had 20 or 30 years ago and they give me a big hug I feel the success that I wondered about those years ago.

One word:Human

I have had company for the past few days, My son the journalist, his wife, THE TEACHER and my grandson and granddaughter are visiting with me in Chicago.. We've had the local family in and out, my other son (the actor) who lives in NY stayed part of the day as he was returning from Rumania,via London and Chicago to New York. That was the day they had the fire on the Chicago downtown EL. It's the line that goes from my house to the airport. So #1 son took #2 son to the airport to catch his flight back. FMC was born in 1930..it says so on the book jacket.. I want to get my daughter in law alone long enough to comment on teaching today...it seems to be vastly different from what was going on years ago..My two grandchildren play a mean game of scrabble...they play for points & often win. They read a lot and are into the Blue Balliett books at the moment. I have not had time to read anything and it's the first time I've even looked at the posts. Veeeeeeeeeeeery interesting Colkot

I WAS ONE OF HIS STUDENTS

BE SURE TO CLICK ON THE LINK ABOUT CREATIVE WRITING WITH FM. ACCORDING TO THIS BLOGGER, FM WAS A GREAT TEACHER AND "THE MOST INTERESTING TEACHER THAT I HAD."

Oh, dear EIIH ~
Not you! Just those who struggle are encouraged to work harder!
All praise to you in Latin class is because you are indeed brilliant!

It was fascinating to hear what a former student had to say about Frank McCourt, especially the part about his being "too intellectual" to be teaching high school (which I found amusing because I don't think there is such a thing). In any class or group of classes there will be those who not only are highly intellectual, but will out-intellectual any teacher eventually and become brilliant citizens, and a teacher has a right to take some pride in those students.

Apparently this particular student had some problems with FM's "elitism" such as reading those restaurant reviews from the NY Times about restaurants that his family could not afford to go to. Well, I think that's what teaching is all about---to expose students to a WIDER WORLD, including places they have never been, people they have never met, and experiences they have never had, to open their limited views and let them know what all is out there, so they can make choices and feel comfortable with those choices. And he was teaching them about creative writing, and apparently this restaurant reviewer was a good creative writer. This particular student seems to have missed that.

Because the schools did not do it for my children, I used to do this sort of thing with them, and include whatever friend they hung around with at the time. We went to museums, ballets, concerts where they had to dress properly and know when to applaud and when to be still, and where they could watch the orchestra as it cooperated with the conductor, special exhibits, fine restaurants with lessons on which fork or spoon to pick up and what to do with a cloth napkin. They not only loved it, but years later I had some of those kids call and tell me that those experiences helped them to feel at home in the world and feel comfortable anywhere, even amongst the elite or the snobs.

We had lessons on behavior before we went, and I expected them to be at their very best, and they were.

My parents did the same with me. Even as a little girl I was taken to restaurants and taught about behavior in them, to plays and special events. I was even taught from a young age (as young as 5, with a drop or two cut with water at dinner) how to drink wine and to gauge when I'd had enough. When my companions in high school went on a drinking binge I was the one who knew when to stop because I'd been taught when to stop and knew where my limits were. Some of my very favorite memories are of spending time with an aunt who was a "city girl", and her taking me to such places. I felt so grown up and special when I was allowed to stay with her for a while, and I think every child should have an aunt or an uncle like that--or grandparents who will expose them to those wider worlds.

I did not like his comments about FM making fun of the Bible. Not that some things in it can't be made fun of, but religion is very personal and to have a teacher make fun of your particular belief is not very nice or very helpful. However, the fact that they got exposed to the Bible at all was interesting to me, because I believe that to understand our Western civilization we not only have to know something about the Bible, but also about Greek mythology and the Romans. Without having a handle on those a lot of literature (especially poetry) goes right over their heads. When someone refers to the life of Job, people ought to know what is meant by that. When someone says our planet Earth is like an ark, we ought to know what is being referred to. That can be taught in a respectful literary way without bringing dogma into it, in the same way Greek mythology can be taught. The word narcissism has a root, and knowing about Narcissus who was blinded by his own beauty, explains the world better than almost any other explanation, I think.

I'm sorry, my new desktop was blown out in a thunderstorm yesterday and appears irreparable, must be stripped and redone according to the way it came originally, according to bellsouth and HP. I am "here" on a unfamiliar laptop which is...well. I had tried to send Jane at about 5 am today a message with something for today on it and a post but it looks like it did not go.

So I will get that from the old computer and be right back, sorry for any delay here.

Babi I am sorry to once again have misquoted you, I hope you enjoy being with your family. I will try to read more closely.

Since this day is half gone let's take two days before we enter into Chapters 11 and 12 to try something new.

The file, however, it sould seem, will not copy over to this new computer (is there an Irish hex on?) So I will rewrite it by hand, hold on...

I do want to say not to worry Ella we are glad to see you in any guise and Ann thank you for the blog, link it was very interesting.

Here WAS my bright idea for this group at 5 am this morning...see next post (give me a second to retype it all)

Before I got knocked off last night I really enjoyed each of the posts talking about your thoughts on McCourt the man and then McCourt the teacher. I love the way we're all over the place on him: (and we really are about as far apart as you can get), super outcome and makes for the best discussions when that happens.

Several of you have mentioned the oral tradition and storytelling and its place in different societies. I thought it might be interesting, here on our last two days of this section, to either look into the history of storytelling (were the ancient Greeks the first?) or identify a "story" in your own experience that you might include if YOU wrote a Memoir?

Memoir: A narrative composed from personal experience.

McCourt's book to me seems to be a compendium of several different experiences, the only common theme being (but we might discuss this sometime) him. That is, all of the experiences revolve around his own….Odyssey…. if you will, through life, through different schools with flashbacks to adjunct experiences, but they are like spokes on a wheel, with him in the center. I have a feeling it was not easy to compile, it appears to me he took what stood out and then tried to put them in some sort of order.

So for today, (and since we have very little time left, for Saturday), let's try it ourselves, that is, let's think back over our varied experiences in our own journeys and pick one and "write" our own mini memory here. It need not be personally revealing nor funny, nor sad, nor anything at all: it could be a leaf in the rain, whatever you'd like to tell us. Tell us a story as you saw it of one thing in your own memory, and let's all experience what it's like to write a memoir today. What would you put IN what would you leave OUT, and why?

I am hoping this might help us "get into" what we're reading, but it might not, at any rate it will be interesting to see the different voices in our unique conversation here on the Internet, the new medium of storytelling.

Ginny, do you want our memory to be school related?

I remember the birth of my first grandchild. I will never forget that Saturday. Not wanting to stay home and wait for the call from the hospital, my husband bought our first cellphone. Only about an hour after we left the store the cellphone rang. Little Nicholas was on his way into the world. My son said to "hurry, hurry."

We rushed over to the hospital. We stood outside the door and waited to be told it was alright to go in. The nurse came out with my baby Nicholas. I could tell he was so perfect. I will never forget that moment. I will never forget holding him for the first time. He was so tiny with the most beautiful face. He wasn't wrinkly. Well, I could go on but I would repeat myself.

Now Nicholas is in elementary school. I suppose this is why education is so important to me. I want the educational system to fit the changes Nicholas will grow through as he changes from a little boy to an adolescent and then, a young man in college.

let's think back over our varied experiences in our own journeys and pick one and "write" our own mini memory here.

One memory that sticks out in my mind throughout my journey of fifteen years of teaching, is when one of our families in our parish/school found out the Dad had inoperable brain cancer. This couple had four beautiful daughters ranging in the ages of Kind - Jr High in my school. My husband and I knew this couple on a personal level from sharing pre-cana classes with them, (us being the facilitators) to eight engaged couples. Their eldest daughter Elizabeth would come to my computer lab and stand at my desk just talking about different programs. She was troubled about how she would manage to pass her High School entry test, to be awarded a scholarship to prevent her parents from having to worry about the financial burden of sending her to a private Catholic high school, which is what they wanted for her. I remember I was giving all the 8th graders the mock entry test program so we could track their weaknesses in order to prepare them for the day of taking the entry test. I reassured Elizabeth that she was bright enough to do very well on the entry test, and that what ever she did, her parents would be proud of her. Her sat down to begin the program, and all of a sudden broke down and cried. I went to her and placed my arm around her shoulder, I told her I think she had too much stress and worry for a girl her age. I told her to come back after school every day and I would let her practice using the program until she felt comfortable and confident enough to have a score recorded in my book. She came day after day and during that time she would share her thoughts and feelings with me about what she fears of losing her Dad. Her Dad died and we went to the funeral. The funeral home was packed full of people who loved this family. Each person went up to the podium and told a touching or funny story about how they knew Tim. Months after he died, Elizabeth came to me one day after school to chat, she told me she was awarded a scholarship for her entire four years at the High School her parents has wanted. She thanked me and was leaving my room and stopped at the door for a second, turned back and said, "Mrs. Reinhart, when I am famous I am going to stand on stage and say thank you to my computer teacher for all the help she gave me." I laughed and replied, "Thank you Elizabeth I will be looking forward to that day." I see her during her summer breaks in our church and she is working very hard at becoming a talented stage play actress. She has a beautiful voice, like an angel singing to her father in Heaven. I have always felt blessed and honored to be her teacher for just a short while. My principal told me in the beginning year of my teaching that if you touch but only one child you have accomplished being a great teacher. I would like to think Elizabeth counts for that one child.

Bellamarie, that's a beautiful memory. Thank you for sharing it.

Hey Hats -I have a grandson Nikolas. He is 6 years old. He goes to a very expensive private school. I think its a pressure cooker system. It is very much a right wing thinking school devoted to churning out kids for the Corporate world. The kids have to work way above the level of other schools. They have their own attached unit for four year olds. Kindergartens which are generally run by the State are normally stand alone schools and children can enrol at age 3 til they begin school at 5.

I have talked about Brookes Public school and I prefer the way they work to the system Nikolas is in. It will be interesting to see how the children develop as people. Nikolas already acts like a bank manager or an accountant! He is a very regimented little person. I like to talk to him and do my own little bit of subversion when we are together LOL. I do not want him to grow up with a one eyed slant on life. We talk about for instance the fact that there are children who do not have his advantages. I tell him he is a very fortunate little boy. I also buy him presents which require assembly so he learns to use his hands as well as his brain.

Carolyn

Carolyn, we also buy educational toys for the grandchildren. Nicholas is my first grandchild. There is also Elijah and Isaac. Then, I have two stepgrandchildren.

All of the boys are really smart. Nicholas is very smart. From day one he did everything quickly. He walked quickly and took responsibility for himself. He is very quick to learn too. He had a leapfrog book. He went through that in nothing flat.

I think your Nikolas is fortunate to be in a private school. In a private school I think the classes are smaller. I have heard children get more individual care because of the smaller classes.

Hats there are only 15 children per class at Niks school. For this privilege a weeks tuition is around $300. That does not include extras. In 18mths Niks brother will be at that school. What a lot of money to commit to for a period of 12 years. The school is split into two schools. There is the junior school which is up to 11yrs old then the Senior school up to 19 years old. The school is set in a large acreage of land. Their driveway from the car park to the admin office is about a 10 min walk! Its a private road!

Carolyn

This is a poem that I wrote in memory of my husband who died on April 28, 1996:

Sunrise, Sunset:

Together we waited for the morning sun
A sun that would bring us another day
We both wanted relief
You from your pain and I from my fear

During those last days we talked
And you would tell me about
Other sunrises and other sunsets
And I would listen

You would speak of the dawns of your youth
That changed from gold to pink to red
And back to gold again
Over the mountains of New Mexico

Then with sadness you would speak
Of a red and burnt orange sunset
That painted the rivers and land of
Vietnam a blood red

Together we remembered the morning sun
As it filtered through the stain glass windows
Casting shadows of pink and yellow
The day we took our vows

I alone watched that last sunset with you
But you did not see it for you were gone
Now I think about you evry time
I see a Sunrise, Sunset

~ Anne M. Ogle (Scrawler) "A Century to Remember"

I hope this is what meant Ginny.

My memory goes back to Christmas eve of 1953. With eight older siblings our Christmas revolved around family get-togethers, singing carols around the piano and Christmas eve Mass.We had none of the Irish angst that FM referred to due to wonderful parents. Presents were not in great abundance, but we always received one present-usually an article of clothing. We opened our gifts around 11pm so we could wear our gift to midnight Mass. I was given a grey wool skirt with yellow leather trim on the pockets AND a blouse with a grey background and yellow flowers. Two presents! I loved them both and happily put them on. Upon arrival in the choir loft an older girl told me the blouse looked like dasies in a wind storm. Talk about taking the wind out of your sails. I never liked the blouse after that and hardly ever wore it. When I taught I thought of that event and how one or two discouraging words could have an unsuspected negative result. I'm sure she meant her comment to be funny, but I've never forgotten it or her.

Will post later Colkot

I'm glad to get the students perspective on FM. As is typical when he writes his memoir he is harder on himself than others would be. We try to tell our kids that often - that what they know about themselves is not what others see in them. We all know our "weaknesses" as we see them. Others often have a much more positive view of us.

We have a Nickolas grandson also - very popular name in the last 10 years, wonder why?.........jean

Hats.....That was so sweet, it brought me back to the day my first grand daughter was born. I like the "MY" Nicholas, it tells what a loving Grandmother you are without knowing you.

kiwi lady.....good for you for allowing your grandson to know that using his hands are as important as his brain.

What wonderful memoirs we have here. I have funny ones, good ones, bad ones, and scary ones. So I will go back to my childhood. My mom and dad and my two brothers would always go up the "holla" to my grandparent's house every Sunday afternoon and stay for supper. They lived on a farm and had a lot of home grown vegetables. Supper consisted of a huge plate of lettuce with sliced tomatoes, and hard boiled eggs smothered with mayonnaise, in addition to the other foods like pig's feet jelly, chow chow, home grown corn on the cob, strawberries etc. It was a banquet fit for a queen! The farm house had a huge kitchen, with a wood /coal stove off to the side that had a pipe that snaked up through the ceiling to warm the bedrooms above in the winter. There was no running water in the kitchen, but adjacent to it was the summer kitchen, with a hand pump outside the door. She did most of her cooking in the summer kitchen during the hot days of summer.

In the evening the older folks would sit on the wrap around porch and tell stories or spin yarns. My great uncle had been a lawyer in Atlanta and had lots of funny stories to tell about his cases with the southern folk. My favorite thing was to sit and listen to their conversations. We would stay there until the mist started to rise over the Allegheny Creek in the meadow and the lightning bugs began to flicker. But it usually was the mosquitoes that drove us inside.

In the winter time the folks would play cards after supper. This was our Sunday ritual, going home to Grammy's, Ah, memories.........

A gal after my own heart. Of course the schools are not a "one size fits all".. we too gave our children "enrichment" museums, concerts, art, music, judo, dual language & table manners. They also had the opportunity to go to ethnic scout camps, to relatives abroad (I never saw new furniture in the house for many,many years)They were in dance groups, competitions for reciting and for writing.All learned to play music in whatever they wanted to learn starting with the piano. They all sang & danced..one or two taught others. They are:(1) working journalist & Dad (2)MSW &Mom & (3) working actor (4) working actor(f) The younger two are not married. Colkot

Scrawler, I read your poem earlier. It greatly moved me. Thank you for sharing it with us. Grief is so stinging. To write about it do you relive the whole traumatic event again? Does a little more healing happen each time you write about it? Some people talk about grief rather than write about it. Is it better to talk or write?

I remember when my sister's husband died. Days and months afterward she would tell us each move she had made the day of JB's death. She relived her life, for that day, in slow motion. Being so much younger, twenty one years difference in age between my sister and I, left me wondering what it meant, the retelling of the story. My mother said my sister needed to talk about that day in order to heal.

In my own life I have discovered retelling an event is healing. I can't speak for writing. I know about talking. To retell the event brings the tears all over again. The tears cleanse and wash the soul. I thank God for tears. Each tear releases me from what is hurting at the time or has hurt me so very long ago.

What wonderful and memorable things you all have written here, so moving, and quite unforgettable, thank you so much!

I am finding this a VERY difficult exercise to do, myself? It really gives you an entirely different perspective on the whole thing.

Everything I have immediately thought of seemed non PC? That is, stories you would not tell, period.

Then I had to ask myself why would I tell a story? At all? Why would anybody?

For instance, would I tell it for future generations? My mother, who told ME stories of her childhood, which were fascinating, and whose mother sang me the old songs of the NC Mountains which I can still sing, refused to tell any more as she aged. She really had lived thru some interesting times, but she would not tell them.

This, if you struggle with it, opens your eyes as to why people write memoirs and why they include things they might have better left out. I really think it is an excellent exercise.

For instance, does it change your opinion of people, would it, to hear something which they did as negative? OR should they present themselves as an unalloyed saint? Better to keep it light or sweet or funny than be serious?

Nobody is all saint. Nobody is all brilliance. Everybody makes mistakes and sometimes big ones.

So as I am still struggling to come up with ONE memory to put here I have to ask why I would want to write one at all?

The answers are quite surprising and I think they speak to this book and all memoirs.

I am really quite taken with this, but it’s a serious struggle for me, would your purpose be something in your life you think posterity or your children or your grandchildren would like to know? A tidbit, funny or otherwise that they could repeat? Something that had not happened to anybody else?

OR would you put down the first thing that entered your head, why DO we remember what we do?

I am finding this and your own memories fascinating, I just love them, and then Hats brought THIS up:

In my own life I have discovered retelling an event is healing. I can't speak for writing. I know about talking. To retell the event brings the tears all over again.

What do you all think while we’re waiting to hear from others of other memoirs, is writing it down the same healing effect?

And that makes me wonder, here on the eve of our Chapters 11 and 12, what purpose McCourt had (I think Ella asked this earlier and we all answered) in writing this and why he chose to include what he does. It worries me, this is not 30 years of memories, he’s left a lot out. Why has he put IN what he has?

When YOU try to do it YOURSELF, then it opens up all sorts of questions, at least it has for me. And it unfortunately this book has jerked my chain, especially Chapter 11, to the point that all sorts of strange and unhappy things have come flooding out.

So the effect, say, of Chapter 11 coming up tomorrow, on me is not a good one. I still remember you, Miss Thomas, from the Third Grade, and how you slapped that new boy who could not speak, when he first came to the class, something wrong with his tongue. I can hear him now. I can see him, his little tear streaked face and his struggles to speak. Shame on you. You asked him his name and when he could not say it to suit you, you slapped him in the face, demanding that he say something you could understand and he tried again, and you slapped him again, it seemed over and over, it was horrible, until I, shy and scared to death, and in tears, made you stop. The other children joined with me and you stopped for some reason, what did you say to all of us and the child? I don’t remember anything? All I remember is you stopped.

I remember it as if it were yesterday but I thought I had forgotten it, I had laid it and you, except for the potholders and the ruler, to rest for … over half a century, until I read this book. I remember how you literally threw a child out of a first floor window. Yes you did. And so much more. You were a monster, yes you were. I am sure you were a delightful person at home, but you were a monster in the classroom and you deserve to be forgotten. I would have liked for it to have stayed that way. This book, and the stories of Hector and then Boom Boom (in tomorrow's Chapter 11) has brought you back, and because of it, I am having personally a LOT of trouble discussing it and must rely strongly on the others here. The book itself is about Frank McCourt and his odyssey thru 30 years of his life and what he did for a living. Some of it is very charming and funny. Some of it is decidedly not. HE put every single thing in this book. We need to ask ourselves as we struggle to write even ONE memory, why.

The discussion is about US and our reactions to what he’s saying.

I am not sure how we can ignore what he’s saying just to enjoy the book. How can we do that? If HE wanted us to ignore these incidents, why did he put them in here?

Meanwhile, I need to TRY to write one mini memoir myself, it's NOT easy, at all? I am surprised!!!

Hats I just can not imagine paying $300.00 per week to educate a child, not to mention a second one on the way. I was raised so very poor that $300 would have fed me and my six siblings for a month. I sent my three children to a private grade school, back then it was $800 a year, so that was $2,400 a year for the three. Once my kids got to High School, the two boys went on to private schools and they were $4,000 a year, so for the two, it was $8,000 per year for four years. We were paying more for their tuition then our house payment. While I have no regrets, both of our sons have nice jobs yet work side by side with public high school graduates. They have decided for their own children the expense of private schools will be far too much. Private High School tuition today in our city is $10,000 a year. It is so outrageous. My husband and I are at retirement age, most of our friends and family are retiring but we will not be able to due to paying the tuitions for so many years.

While each family must decide what is best for their children, and I have no issues with public vs. private education. I just wonder how anyone can afford private schools today.

Ginny....Wow I am sitting here with a hurt heart and tears flowing down my cheeks. You just wrote your mini memory, and what a memory it was. I too struggled with the abuse FM showed to the students. I can not even begin to conceive how any teacher could do the things FM or Miss Thomas did.

Yes, I think writing down the memories of hurt, disappointment, fear and failures can help heal, the same as talking them aloud. Each time we speak of them we release the chains that encompass us. We weaken the strength that the memory has kept wrapped around us for so many years. There is a book I read to my day care children, called Charles T. McBiddle. He is a small boy who wants to ride a bike. Every time he tries, he allows his imagination to create a very large, ugly, negative monster who tells him he is pathetic and can not do it. I think much like Charles needing to believe in himself to accomplish to ride his bike and slay the monster, is much like us writing to slay the monsters of the memories and the people who was responsible for them. Charles kept trying and falling and the monster got bigger and more mean. When Charles finally rode the bike the monster shrunk and went away.

I see that as our memories, once we face them, speak of them, share them, they seem to fade and have less effect on us. Thank you for sharing and telling Miss Thomas she did these things and shame on her.

I just read this in the Authors' Corner and thought some of you might be interested. Read Yarnspinner's post

. . . better to release some of the memories and get a handle on them. I found for me it is writing. That's why I wrote the memoir of my early childhood, to try and figure out why I had such automatic reactions to some things and seemed not to be able to control them. And looking over the whole thing later I had an "aha" experience---OK, that's why I react that way when I see food wasted, or when I see someone in uniform bullying someone, etc., etc.

Anyhow, here's one of the memories taken directly from my memoir. I must have been around 4 years of age. Sorry if it seems dramatic, but it just was. With my puny little experiences combared to a combat soldier I can also understand why they don't want to talk about it most of the time. I don't like to talk about it either, but I did write it down as a sort of cathartic:

__________

In all the chaos and confusion, and in spite of the incessant hanger pangs grawing at my insides, I remember being frightened only one time---and that time I was literally terror sticken. Mother had begun her wanderings again although she was by no means recouperated from her collapse. She was determined to find the American army even though they had retreated to only god knew where. I think my father must have told her the last time they met to go wherever the Americans were and he would find her when the war was over--if they were still alive.

It was winter and it was very cold and I remember my little brother and I sticking our tongues out to catch the snowflakes because we were so dreadfully hungry, but they melted into nothingness while the hunger continued unabated. We had our little wagon, but there were not so many things on it anymore. Mother probably had used items to trade for food or shelter. All she had left was a light slip and a thin, worn-out coat and some old shoes with holes in them, and no stockings. Somewhere along the way a Russian soldier had shoved a rifle butt into her back, and she limped and was in constant pain. She tried to keep us warm with whatever she could beg, borrow or recycle, and I don't really remember feeling cold until later. She had unraveled some woolen cushion covers and other knitted items while she had recovered from her collapse, and had knit lovely little sweaters for my brother and me. They were warm and cozy and made from all the colors under the sun---from whatever bits and pieces of wool she could find. I can remember helping her unravel the wool and knot all the colorful pieces together in whatever helter-skelter way they came to hand. There is a photograph in one of my albums of my brother and me wearing those rainbow sweaters. I don't know if that picture was taken during or after the war. It is in black and white, but when I look at it I see lovely colors because I remember those sweaters so well.

And so mother trudged along in her ragged skimpy coat, pulling the wagon through the whirling snow. We finally came to what looked like a border station. There was a huge fence across the road and many soldiers with rifles loitering on either side, smoking and making loud male noises. There were a lot of tanks and military vehicles. These were Russian soldiers, and mother knew that somehow she had to get through them to the other side, because over there, within her sight, was safety for us, and possibly my father and a normal life when all the madness was over.

About a hundred feet away was another gate with American soldiers on either side, loitering in the same way, smoking cigarettes and shouting to the Russians.

My mother showed her passport to the Russians and explained that she needed to get to the other side because she had family waiting there. She heaved a sigh of relief when they let her through so easily. The soldiers were still shouting to each other in two languages we did not understand as we trudged through those hundred feet of no-man's land.

She came to the American side and showed her passport. They looked at it, guffawed and laughed and then---horror or horrors---they insisted they did not understand her, and could she please speak English. She was fearful they would rip her only means of identification to shreds as they roughly grabbed it and passed it from hand to hand, even threatening to burn it with their cigarettes. She implored them to give it back to her, to please let her through, that she had family on the other side and somewhere to live. Couldn't they see that her babies were cold and hungry? But they continued their sadistic game and laughed at her. I could see their breath in the cold air and the smoke from their cigarettes as they looked her up and down with that same awful glint I had seen in the Russian's eyes before she threw the bucket of dirty water at him. They refused to let her through, and the more she begged the more they jeered, informing her that they had no idea what she was saying to them. Every time she tried to speak, one or all of them in ugly chorus replied "Kann nix verstehen" (don't understand).

So there we were, in a hundred feet of land that belonged to no one at all, between two conquering armies, with no passport and no shelter from the icy cold, with the soldiers taunting her as the snow whirled. For the first time I felt gut-wrenching fear.

Mother had no option but to return to the Russian side, and now they too were snickering at her, telling her in broken German that she had insisted on going through and they had been kind enough to let her, so why was she coming back so soon? Didn't she like Americans? Did she prefer the Russians? But no, they could not let her back because she had no identification. The same heated glint was in their eyes. I was terrified that they would take my mother away and that I would never ever see her again. For the first time I thought we might be hurt or even end up like some of the motionless forms we had seen in ditches along the roads. When I had questioned mother why those people were just lying there and didn't move, she said matter of factly that they were dead people, and she usually diverted my attention very quickly by pointing out a butterfly, a distant plant, or a cloud formation. Even though I didn't know what "dead" meant, I sensed that it was terrible and final and something I did not want to be. Now, for the first and only time, I thought that maybe we would end up "dead", lying there in this barren space of a hundred feet of frozen ground with the cold snow blotting us out while the soldiers laughed and bellowed and smoked cigarettes. My heart was in my throat and my teeth were chattering. (Cont.)

Mother doggedly fended them off and continued back and forth between the Russians and the Americans, each time pulling the wagon behind her, with us on top of whatever belongings it still contained. By that time we were crying and our teeth were chattering. Every nerve ending in my body seemed raw and screaming. I don't know how many times she went back and forth between the two armies, each time entreating and begging for mercy, and each time being refused. Once on the Russian side a soldier looked at her face in the light and stroked her cheek, and when she slapped his hand at such unwanted familiarity, he took a hank of her hair, yanked her head back, and pulled out the earrings that were still in her ears, leaving her earlobes torn and bleeding. I don't remember a sound coming from her lips. I wanted desperately to protect her, but she fiercely ordered me not to move and to stay in the wagon.

Then she made one final effort on the American side, and as she was pleading to have her passport back, with a dry cracking sort of terror in her voice that I had never heard before, a jeep with two soldiers drove up. They must have been an officer and his driver. The officer leaped out of the jeep and demanded to know what was going on. He instantly figured it out for himself as the soldiers came to attention and saluted. He gazed at my mother and her bleeding earlobes, and at us and our chattering teeth. Then he barked a furious order, handed her the passport, tipped his hat with a flourish just like a cavalier, and opened the gate to let us through. His driver, who spoke German, directed us to the nearest town just a short distance down the road, and to the Red Cross station where we might be able to get shelter. That gallant man, whose face and name I don't even know, is in my thoughts and prayers to this very day.

And so we were on the American side again, while our gallant prince raged at the cave-man bunch behind us.

What great memoirs to read, some heart-wrenching. Years ago, I started a memoir but just got this far. I doubt if it will ever be continued:

I knew the kid. It took me awhile to figure out how I knew him, a little Afro-American boy in the second grade of an inner-city school. He was the only one who stared at me the whole hour I was there; he never laughed when I read a funny story or showed a funny picture. He never poked another boy, never fidgeted, never whispered, he just stared at me, a quiet stare, a wondering stare.

He was thinking how I came to be there, what it took to be a grownup person who looked and talked as if she knew everything and had everything she wanted, he wondered why a white woman was sitting in his classroom reading stories one day a week. Did she feel sorry for the poor kids? Was this something she did to fill her time? Did it make her feel good to do something for the black kids who lived in little houses with their trash showing, their neglected weeds sprouting in the spring waiting for the snow to cover them up again. Occasionally you saw a house that was kept in good shape, fenced, clean, windows shining, little cape cod houses built originally for veterans of World War II.

I knew the boy because his eyes told a story I had tried for years to forget.

It's sort of like shorthand, just blips and bits and pieces of intense memory, and a lot of blank spaces in between, especially when one remembers something from a young age. In order to get a coherent story, one must fill in the blank spaces. I filled in the blank spaces by asking my mother about them during my teen years, but the memories themselves are intense and will be with me for the rest of my days. I wonder if memory is enhanced the more dramatic a situation is, and at what point the mind just goes blank and refuses to remember anything about certain events.

Sierrarose, I tried putting myself in your mother's place and just can't imagine the terror she felt. It is a part of life that most of us here have had the good fortune never to experienced. We all had fears of somethings or other, but yours are a totally different level.

Ginny, Do you remember anything that happened to the boy after that horrible incident? Did you tell your parents?

with Alzheimers, she relived some of those moments and she literally clawed at doors and windows until her fingers were bloody to get to "her babies". The nurses didn't know what she was talking about until I explained it to them. After that they found ways of calming her, by giving her a doll to cuddle and telling her that's her baby, or by convincing her that I was taking care of "her babies".

What's interesting is that I never felt any fear except for a couple of times, one of which I described. And that was mainly due to my mother always protecting me no matter how bad things got. I have much more trouble with Ginny's scene of that little boy being slapped with no one to protect him just because he couldn't talk. I would think that for a child nothing could be worse. You can really truly go through almost anything as long as you feel one of your parents cares enough to give you protection.

I found that slapping scene EXTREMELY disturbing, so disturbing, as a matter of fact, that while I was reading it I wished that teacher to hell and back.

PS: Surprisingly, not all memories of war times are bad. There are some WONDERFUL memories, like when that gate opened and Prince Charming let us through. There were many Prince Charmings in the U.S. Army and they are one of the reasons I ADORE this country.

I salute all of you for your wonderful, memorable stories. It frightens me to tell stories of my yester-years. I have always said that it is because I was not a loved child but that is not true ,I was loved dearly by everyone but my mother. Perhaps that is why I always excelled at school work and in any academic atmosphere. I wished to please my teachers and instructors. If you know me at all, you can already guess that that did not always happen. I am too outspoken and too prone to have fun (usually at my own expense.)

Recently, I told my grand-daughters of a 5th grade music teacher that I had who for some perverse reason delighted in pulling my hair, for two years, when I was in grammar school. When I flinched and grabbed at her hand she pulled all the harder telling me that I could not sing. The old witch would yank at my braids, pulling them straight up and say in a very loud voice, "Andrea, you can not sing. Don't try unless you sing higher, higher, higher," as she pulled my braids up, up, and up, to coincide with each tug. She told me that I was a contralto and had no right singing aloud. Of course, if one did not sing loud enough for the old wench to hear, you were dismissed from class and failed music. I utterly detested that woman and to this day I hope she burns in hell. Now isn't that a nice polite statement to make to a group of refined folks?

It seems so strange that my 10 yr. old grand-daughter , who is tone deaf, just suffered through another teacher, in another generation with much the same torment. Why?

I loved school and have tons of pleasant, happy memoiries. It galls me that that woman still can persevere.

The memories that stand out for me are the deaths of my beloved grandfather a few days before I turned 21 and the death of my partner for 29 yrs. Next to that was the birth of my first grandchild who was born with my husbands small high arched feet. As I held my grandaughter in my arms an hour after her birth I wept. With the birth of my second grandaughter there was another gift she has two brown eyed parents and one brown eyed sister and yet she was born with my husbands blue eyes. They are the exact shade of blue. When I look into her eyes I look into my late husbands eyes. Its comforting. These are reminders of my most precious memories. Brooke memorialises my late Grandfather as she bears his surname as her Christian name.

Carolyn

My sister drove me nuts. She was twenty one years older. We were the only siblings. My sister is now gone. She died in ninety three.

I remember she taught me to knit and crochet. To this day I am thankful she took time to teach me. I had two left hands. My sister was not the most patient person in the world. During those days of learning to knit and crochet I felt all of my old nightmares had come back to haunt me again.

She yanked my fingers, pushed my hands, pulled the needles, she would sit down and look straight ahead like how in the world could I ever have become her sister and how could she get rid of me without anybody knowing.

Finally, our informal classes of crochet and knitting ended. To this day I love doing both hobbies. It's the one thing my sister left me as a good memory. She must have loved me and wanted me to learn knitting and crocheting badly. Otherwise, she would not have tried so hard to teach me.

So, this memory is a mixed one. I guess love shows itself in different ways. Love is not always gentle like a breeze. Sometimes love comes in like a wild wind blowing everything about but in the end, nothing is really broken.

My sister broke my pride for awhile: I cried, I stamped my foot, I pouted. Then, one day I could knit a row and purl a row. I laughed and hugged my sister tightly. The nightmare had ended. Instead, I had a lasting memory of a time shared with my sister. I seem to take her with me whenever I pick up a ball of yarn and a needle.

I suppose memoirs help us go back and reaffirm how we feel about the people who come and go in our lives. Frank McCourt is doing this, I think, in his memoir. Looking back at the students and reassessing what he might have gained from them in return for his teaching.

I don't think he could have seen or realized the students gifts to him while he was teaching. The days were too wild and hectic. When he sat down with pen and paper, he must have realized it was their listening to his stories and asking questions, that made him realize he had a story to tell outside of the schoolroom and to the whole world.

SierraroseCA, I think for you it is writing. I have very much enjoyed all of your posts. You definitely have a gift of writing.

I am enjoying all of the memories written here. Ginny, really had a wonderful idea.

Thank you SierraRose for that incredible searing memory. It gave me chills. I’m going to ask Jane if she will put our mini memoirs (leaving out Miss Thomas, she does not deserve a seat in that company, she does not deserve even a mention except in the lowest regions of Hell where Dante put Brutus, for the same reasons) but other than her, I would like for these memories to be preserved. That is the most incredible thing I ever read, tell us how your mother ended up her life, before she got Alzheimers, was she secure and happy, I hope? I would like to hear more.

Ella, no I have no further memory of Miss Thomas except that child she threw out the window she did not "throw," she knocked him out with a blow, and he fell thru the open window, it was a ground floor but it was a long way down, we children at least could not see in the window when we stood trying to look in. Miss Thomas needs to be where Andrea wants hers and SierraRose said she wished her. She never touched me tho. Thank you for that memory of the little boy, who knows what these poor children have been through, we’re beginning to know, I hope this will do us and them some good somehow.

Thank you KiwiLady for those wonderful memories!

Thank you, Ann for that link, I had invited Mike in here, hopefully he'll come, we appreciate your hard work in that Author's Corner.

I have struggled more with FM’s book than any I have read and I think it’s because of what BellaMarie said: “We weaken the strength that the memory has kept wrapped around us for so many years.”

Those memories apparently have never left us and don’t you see they don’t leave FM either? So when he encounters (I spent two full days of constant thinking trying to understand him, and rationalize his actions. I refuse to ignore the Elephant here in the Living Room. How can he be such a Jekyl Hyde?)

Here's how I have made some peace with this. I believe that, for instance, children like Hector and Boom Boom symbolize to FM what, his mind, is “disrespect” for learning, and he wants to do something about it, and unfortunately for them AND us, his response is the same thing that he felt with Andrew in Chapter 11: “I look back at his cold stare and wonder if I should try to win him over or destroy him completely.”

Again, this is coming from somewhere else. Somewhere else in FM’s life, and in his past, like Miss Thomas in mine, which he has a knee jerk reaction to. I am not sure that 99 out of 100 people might have this same reaction but FM does.

I think, now, in retrospect that FM HAS done something quite unique. I think this is probably a masculine reaction, but one that few men would articulate and that’s one of our questions for today: the quality of introspection and revelation that FM gives us. I am trying to remember any other man writing this type of introspective thing, can you name one?

Andrea you too!!! Thank you for that memory, it’s amazing how many of us (and you say your granddaughter had a similar deflating experience...I assume not physically tho?) have been physically mishandled by “teachers.”

Hats, another beautiful story, at least (and I wonder why I said at least) it was a family member and not an “authority in education.”

Would we all agree the “TEACHER” is an authority in a child’s life? Or not? And would we all agree that when that authority is abused it scars a child? Or not.

Hats, my grandmother also taught me to knit and crochet, and Andrea can tell you about my 39 year old baby blanket project, I may have to contact you for help! Move here immediately? Hahahaa

I would not like to think of Miss Thomas as my memoir, I must try harder to think of something, I agree, Hats, that was very valuable, thanks to you all for helping with it.

My word for Mr McCourt up to Chapter 10 is one of his favorite words, insouciant. I was thinking of it the whole time and he himself brings it up in Chapter 11, I don’t think that’s a mistake. I think he knows how he’s presented himself, that’s my word.

My grade for him as a teacher up until Chapter 10 is an F.

My grade for him as brilliant showman is an A.

But the classroom is not about brilliant performance, it’s not a Broadway Show, it’s about reaching the kids day by day and trying to make a difference in their own lives, he gets an F till he gets to Stuyvesant, when Irish Eyes ARE smiling and thank God. He says Coming Alive and he means it, so does the book. He ends big, and they do say in performance that’s all that matters.

So I’m interested to get on to Chapter 12 but already the writing is changing. I see a major break beginning in Chapter 11, so much so that idly last night I wondered if Chapters 12-up were written first and then the other pieces painfully put together. As Sierra Rose said, “In order to get a coherent story, one must fill in the blank spaces…” But it’s getting interesting here and we’re not jerking, slapping or abusing children so I’m interested, too. Let’s discuss Chapter 11 for a few days?

See next post!

Chapter 11 is quite interesting on several levels. It begins again with a blast at methodology and pedagogy. Then we have an odyssey to England and an attempt at getting his PhD, I found this fascinating, what happened, do you think?

1, A Dream Attained and the Aftermath:

What does FM reveal here about himself in his attempt to get a PhD? I felt sorry for him, should I have? He’s quite a powerful writer, an Everyman at Trinity. I can barely understand what he’s saying. What do you know about Trinity College?

---Did his interest in history and his desire to change his thesis seem logical? Could he not incorporate that into his piles of note cards and paper?

In entering the forbidden doors of Trinity College, Frank McCourt attained his dream. In how many ways did he discover his dream failed him? Was it the dream which failed him or did he fail it?.

2, What did you think of the story of Andrew? Who do you think his father is?

3. What is:

a culchie from the country (page 159)
”The Deserted Village”
a “wan” (page 160)
a “Poltroon.”

4. What does this mean? “That was my life. I waved without knowing what I was waving at.” (page 163).

5. What do the constant references to Limerick mean? What is different or meaningful about Limerick?

6. “I rarely said what was on my mind, anyway.” (page 168). But in this memoir, FM tells us a lot about what he was thinking. In fact you might say his degree of introspection and revelation is extraordinary. Is this introspection typical of a male writer or is it unique? Can you think of another writer like him? Does this technique draw us closer or make us more empathetic to him? Are you at this point on his side? Do you feel you ”know” him?

7. I thought of an Irish Saying, “Contention is better than loneliness.”

Do you agree?

8. What did you think of his therapy sessions? (page 171). Why is it that in everything he seems to do, graduate school, therapy, his wife seems to be the motivating force? Would you describe FM as passive or active in his own life?

Chapter 11 is FULL of great stuff to discuss, let’s!

. . . from what I've seen here all of you are excellent writers with wonderful control of the language, and I have enjoyed reading every single post here. Anyhow, I plan on finishing my memoirs some day, mainly for my children, so they will have some idea of who their mother really was.

Ginny, I think you are reacting to the slap that McCourt gave Hector more intensely because of this Miss Thomas. But there was a difference between what Miss T did and what McCourt did, even though McCourt should never have lost his cool like that. McCourt slapped ONCE out of frustration. Miss T seems to have slapped and abused just to satisfy her sadistic impulses. McCourt was also sorry and regretted his action. I doubt if Miss T ever did. I sure hope that little boy who couldn't speak had a parent who stood up for him, since I think that would make all the difference in the world for a child.

I recall my father once slapping my little brother in the way McCourt slapped Hector. I do recall being so angry at my father that I distracted him away from my brother with language that he wasn't sure had come out of my mouth, and it worked. He was so shocked that he turned his attention to me, but he didn't slap me. He only grounded me. That was OK with me, and once I had accepted my punishment I went to comfort my brother who had a red mark on his cheek. My father never ever touched us again in anger.

Ginny's question: "Would we all agree the “TEACHER” is an authority in a child’s life? Or not? And would we all agree that when that authority is abused it scars a child? Or not." --- A teacher is a secondary authority. The parent should always be the first authority, and if the parent does his/her job well, a teacher cannot scar a child too much, because the parent will back the child if the child is abused. That doesn't mean a parent should automatically take the child's side about other matters, but it does mean if there is abuse going on the parent needs to put an immediate stop to it. Otherwise the child has been abandoned even though the parent might be physically present.

It sounds to me like most of the children in Miss T's class were abandoned because their parents did nothing about her abuse---or did they?

But this is not exactly what I had in mind..When I attended this elitist private school on scholarship as many of my fellow students did. at 11+ we had already lived a lifetime.We had been taken from our families and evacuated to "safe" places.We had lived with blackouts, rationing, queues, bombs, shelters,been buried alive, bombed out & homeless, our fathers serving the country, some even dead or missing or pow's. Our mothers often doing war work in factories and we were "latchkey kids" looking after younger siblings and trying to put tea on the table(if we had one) All these experiences had transformed us into the kind of student the old guard teachers did not expect, the new breed of girl. (My friend Jean and I were often in the Headmistress/principal's office....I could list reason after reason) In the same way FMC had students already set in their ways and IF he managed to dig at least one or two out of their comfort zone and put some different ideas into their mindset then I feel he did his job. I still feel that early experiences coloured his whole life.. that's what I meant by "Irish angst" To be continued: Colkot

"I thought of an Irish Saying, “Contention is better than loneliness.”

I do believe that most people feel this is a true statement. That's what makes human beings a clan animal. In a clan there is always contention and busy-bodiness, small talk and interference in each other's lives, going through good times and bad times together. It keeps the clan knitted together, cohesive and involved with each member. Most human beings live in that way, and I think that's a good thing.

I happen to feel otherwise, thus being an eccentric exception. But my life has been so filled with contention that I would rather be left alone and be lonely, and FINALLY have my peace and quiet with no more drama. I live alone with my dog in the back woods, by choice, have no neighbors, and have nothing to do with the town or the people in it except for a friendly hello, also by choice. It is sometimes lonely, but I would rather deal with that than deal with the difficulties of relationships with people or interference (or even suggestions) in the way I run my life.

So it all depends.

And I do agree with Hats that love is not always roses and sweetness; that love can often be tough and more like a wild windstorm. Sometimes the storms between my father and me were like hurricaines, but I always knew he loved me. The love between my mother and me was a "difficult" love as I grew up, because she needed to control as a result of being in the habit of being in control during the war, and she was never able to give up that controlling part of her even when she didn't need it anymore. But we always loved each other even when I resented her controlling and told her so, and I was with her to the last even though she no longer recognized me, holding her hand when she died.

. . . the most provocative questions to where a discussion gets deeper than most. I appreciate that no end.

And ALF, it's so nice to see you here.

I too love my own company. Now I'm a widow and only have to take care of myself. it's my kind of heaven.

In my previous days I was always taking care of someone, from my brother, my mother, taking charge when my dad had no job, and a heavy hand when drinking; a husband, 4 children, one who came back home with 2 grandkids in tow.. . Don't get me wrong, I do volunteer at a Senior Center several mornings a week and from time to time actually teach students to use computers...and get to interact with other people Colkot

In 1960 I was student teaching in the local elementary school which was also on the college campus. Every supervising teacher was a state employee and seemed to have been there forever. My first assignnment was in fourth grade with a great guy and good teacher. When I was to go to the to the next nine week assignment he forewarned me about the next supervisor's feelings toward me. I did not know the woman,but she had a reputation of being a terror to students and student teachers especially. He told me that she thought I should be home taking care of my two small children, not trying to get through college. She had experienced several miscarriages and had no children. She was the model of a chunk of ice in her abrupt manner on a daily basis. Being blessed with a horrible cold I went into the office, which adjoined the room to blow my nose. While there I heard a terrible crack and looked to where she was standing.She had slapped a first grade boy in the face and began screaming at me,"If you had been where you were supposed to be instead of hiding blowing your nose, this would not have happened" This was the "MODEL" teacher. From her I learned how not to be.

I spent an hour this morning with a young man who is the principal/superintnedent of a school in New Jersey. I asked him about his plans for inservice days this fall.We talked about Ginny and Alf's long ago experience, Then I told him of Alf's granddaughter's present day experience.He is now going to work on having part of the inservice day on the negative feeling a teacher can impart by her words. If it helps one student................

In entering the forbidden doors of Trinity College, Frank McCourt attained his dream. In how many ways did he discover his dream failed him? Was it the dream which failed him or did he fail it?

This is an interesting question. Sometimes our dreams or desires, perhaps is a better word, are unattainable because we reach beyond our capabilities. I for example could never be a rocket scientist anymore than say the man in the moon. (Get it man in the moon! Ah! Well you get the picture.) Very often we set our sites so high that whatever we accomplish will never satisfy us.

This is what I think Frank McCourt did. He certainly had some of the discipline to achieve his desire, but he set his goals so high that he couldn't accomplish them. On the other hand maybe that's exactly where he was going. Sometimes if we don't make our goals we can always whine or blame someone else about why WE didn't get to do what we wanted.

I don't know Sierra. When I told my mother about the "hair yanking" every week, she told me to OBEY the teacher. Like that could change my contralto voice. When I related the incident to my Dad, he said he could talk to the Principal. That scared the bee-jeebers out of me and I wanted no part of that misery.

I am beginning to understand your feeling sierrarose about contention versus peace and interference. Do you also find yourself answering your questions after you've asked yourself something out loud, like I do?

EllH- I thank you for using these unpleasant experiences as a means to convey to teachers just how serious this could be for a child. My granddaughter won't sing in school OR draw because of it.
Me.. well now, I'm a different breed. I have spent my life singing and hollaring, crooning just to Pis* off Mrs. Donahue, ever since the 5th grade. (I wish she could hear me now.) hmmm, let's see, that was 50+ yrs. ago.

Hello Everyone: Well, now, on this part of the story of Trinity College and Frank's attempt to get a Ph.D.: I had several feelings about it. I did not have the feeling that his mentor was really supporting him at all during his attempts to write the thesis. Not in the general time when he was trying to write it, or any other time. Writing one is very hard and the candidate needs as much help from the Mentor as he can get.

But also, I did not feel FM had the discipline to accomplish this. He should have had other Ph.D. students he could talk to, but I did not feel that he did have. And he did not seem to have the push to really keep himself on task. I also felt he tried to change his topic much too late.

I have my almost completed childhood memoirs for my grands on disc. I am up to the year I began high school and I intend to carry on to the day I met their grandfather. I have detailed a lot of what it was like to live in the centre of Auckland city over fifty years ago. Then when we moved to the North Shore suburbs what it was like to live in an area which was like a series of small villages. Its not like that today! As I typed I marvelled at how our life has changed due to all the new technologies.

Carolyn

GINNY's idea for the memories was great. I've enjoyed reading these stories so much. Tho' I'm at a loss to understand how a teacher like Miss Thomas managed to keep her job, if not actually being charged with assault!

I'm wondering now what the time frame might have been for the 'terrible teacher' memories. The only really bad teacher I recall was one called back from retirement during the war. (WWII) She had not business being back in a schoolroom, being too nervous and irritable to be in charge of a class of 3rd graders. But what really upset me was the practice she established of having the students 'tell' on one another. That was bad enough, but what made it worse is that very shortly, to avoid 'telling' on friends, the class as a whole began to shift all the bad reports on to the one student who was 'different', the farm boy in the overalls. It was a sad and shameful thing for all of us.

The memory on my mind now, probably because I had my son Andy here for the weekend, is a funny one. We were taking the children to a movie; Andy was about 3-4 at the time. We went to sit in the balcony as the kids liked that best. Moving along the front railing, Andy managed to spill most of his popcorn over the balcony and onto the heads of the patrons seated below. He then leaned over the balcony and with a loud and indignant voice, demanded "Give me back my popcorn!"

Babi

Ginny what is the book you are going to be reading next in the group and is it available in paperback? Thanks

I had always wanted to go to college and finally received a scholarship to what was then National College of Education..now National Louis University...What a let down....I tested out of many courses..found some of the extracurriculars,ridiculous and some subjects.. been there,done that. When we got to methods of teaching there were not enough students so I ended up with a degree in Human Services/Social work and a minor in Multicultural Studies. It is a devastating experience to go back to school later in life especially if you have a family to take care of &the other students are young enough to be your children. So maybe FMC WANTED the PHD but it was just too much for him...? Just a thought. Oh and by the way.. have any of you been BACK to the schools where you had a miserable time? My late husband insisted I join the alumnae association because HIS school did not exist anymore. (WW2 & communist govt in Poland)I first visited anonymously when my mother had her surgery about 25 years back. What a revelation!.. I was a grownup person, the principal looked just like my European cleaning lady and everything was smaller and more insignificent.Amazing what time & distance can do for you. Nowadays, I visit annually, go to the luncheon, celebrated the 100 year anniversary last year and even wrote the tribute/obit in the Alumnae magazine for the one teacher who meant the most to me. Colkot .

What kind do you mean? The town of....? or the "poetry"?

My late brother gave a lecture on the art of the limerick to the Montclair NJ Ladies Club.

He had to choose the clean ones. There are thousands and thousands.of questionable verses.check on line!!

Here's one: (it's clean)

My brother plays Corky-the-Clown

In the Center Ring Circus downtown

But isn't it dorky

It's not my bro Corky

That's Casey who's Corky-the-Clown!.

(author Nina for a project in grade school:limerick writing!) (Walt Disney Magnet) It's a play on my two boys nicknames the younger one (Casey) was playing the silent clown Corky,( the name of his character) my older boy's nickname is Corky.

Hope that helps

Colkot

Babi- that is a wonderful story about Andy. What a smart little whip he must have been at 3 or 4 yrears old to demand that he be given his popcorn back. I would buy a kid like that another box of popcorn if I heard him say that. I love that story.

Like I said before.....Up to this point of this book I see Frank McCourt as a masochist, depressional, and abusive person.

Slapping a student is beyond my imagination. There is truly NO excuse for slapping a student. The incident with the student not having an excuse, him taking out his legs and causing him to fall to the floor, is just another case of Frank McCourt looking for and needing juvenile attention. As he says on pg. 155 after the incident, he needed to let it go and, "Stop acting like a teenager.

He says he knew it was wrong and felt bad later, but I'm not sure I believe him, because of his past behavior. Some posts have almost tried to defend his actions or excuse them, I can not and will not excuse this form of abuse. ZERO TOLERANCE! is the rule. Too bad NY city school systems did not enforce it. If some of you say FM was trying to show us how the school system failed, then this is where I would agree with you. He should not have been allowed in any school.

He reminds us of how he sabotages his career, he tells us how he was a failure and how he never felt he should have ever been a teacher. He blames everyone and everything for his lousy life and attitude. When his wife finally tells him he is pathetic and needs therapy, he walks out when he is pressured to speak and acknowledge why he is in the group. He says his therapist zeros in on the fact he is shy. He never came over to me as a shy man whatsoever. In his interviews he was smug, in the classroom he was egotistical. If anything I felt he was arrogant, self centered, un-caring, and hiding out in classrooms of students so he could feel superior. He was not willing to take responsibility for anything, even his own health.

He could not hold his own with his peers and superiors. He knew he could be fired for the antics and abuse he pulled but he repeated them over and over.

Just look at the ways he shows even in his own mind and actions, he is a bully to the students.

Hector... because he did not open his magazine when he told him too...."I slapped him across the face with the magazine." pg. 126

A boy not paying attention...."Why is that little bastard talking to her when he could be listening to me?" pg. 147

Andrew..."Oh the temptation to grab a leg and pull. His head would slide down the wall and everyone would laugh." pg. 150

"I wanted to drop the reasonable- teacher mask and say what was on my mind, Look, you little twerp, put the chair down or I'll throw you out the damn window so you'll be meat for pigeons." pg. 152

Boom Boom...I bend to pick it up (the chalk) and there, inviting me, is Brandt's foot, offering itself. I grab it and pull. Brandt falls backward, bangs his head on the brass doorknob, slides to the floor, pg. 155

Ginny made a good point when she asked, what was his purpose needing to put this in his book for his readers to know about him?

Well, in all I have learned about the behavior of an abusive, controlling person, they feel the need to let others know. And yes, after the abuse they do feel a sense of guilt or remorse, only because they fear the consequences, but it does not stop them from doing it again.

I see Frank McCourt through his own eyes: Someone who hid behind a mask, lacked ambition to climb into the school system, adrift in the American dream, facing midlife crisis, failed teacher of High School English, hindered by superiors, principals and their assistants, or so he thought, angst and didn't know what ailed him, an outsider, foreigner, returned Yank, a Limerickman, not a part of the circle, smart cracker who got himself fired, itinerant substitute drifting from school to school, refused opportunities that would challenge him, adulterer, and as he agreed with the mother at the open house.... A FRAUD!

He chose Trinity college because he needed to prove to himself and others that he COULD get accepted. Once there, he really did not care because like everything else in his life, its just about proving he can. He struggles with feeling like the outsider, he thought he would feel a part of the elite and show the Catholics and Irish he was finally sociably accepted. But all he did was show he could not stay the course and finish yet one more thing he said he wanted so badly. He taught because he was a coward and he was his own star in his play. He played to the audience of young impressionable minds. Not caring what scars he imprinted on them. Writing his books, I see is a way for him to have a larger audience. I'm not at all impressed with him and I thank God I have never come across a teacher like him. I have a real issue calling him a teacher at this point.

Well, I was shocked about FM whacking the boy. But I must say I don't despise him for everything. I think I would have really enjoyed being in his class. And I think I would have learned something.

I went to a fairly rough high school. My Freshman year, my homeroom teacher was an ex-boxer. He was a nice guy but he was tough. I think we needed some tough teachers in my school. There were some tough kids in school and gangs. Some of the girls played chicken to see who was tougher. They held lit cigarettes against their skin to see who could hold it there the longest. They had cigarette burn scars on their arms.

One day one of the boys gave my homeroom teacher some back talk. The teacher went after the boy, pushed him and held him up against the wall so his feet were just dangling in air. The boy kept his mouth shut after that. I was pretty shocked but others in my homeroom weren't.

My son went to a decent high school but it had its tough characters. One boy in his grade who had been on his Little League team and who had been a really nice kid got in with a bad crowd. I'll call him Sonny. He and another boy in my son's class had been arguing on the bus to school one day. After school, just outside of school, they continued the argument. A tough group surrounded them. They started chanting over and over to Sonny, "Cut him, cut him, cut him." Sonny got out his knife and stabbed the boy. He killed him. I don't think he meant it. It was like mob violence. Sonny went to prison for life when he was a high school senior 18 years old. My husband spoke up for him at a court session before he was sentenced.

There can be some really tough things teachers face in high school. Back in the 50's, there wasn't such a hands-off policy that there is today. A teacher slapped me when I was in kindergarten. Nobody seemed to think much about it although I was mortified and horrified. I don't think FM was a violent person usually. He lost his self control in the classroom when he whacked the boy. I think he told us about it as a form of catharsis like he told us other stuff. I believe he said it never happened again. I think he felt terrible about it.

I know I went through many experiences when I taught school where I was totally upset and frustrated or angry. I had my moments when I felt like smacking someone. I just ended up getting another career. Teaching high school was always stimulating, but it was just too much for me. So much to contend with besides just teaching the content.

One of our most beloved and best teachers used to hurl his blackboard duster at those who talked or did not pay attention in class. We still loved him. He was a brilliant teacher.

I still think the reason kids are assaulting their teachers in high schools is because they know full well the teacher cannot lay a hand on them even to restrain them. My boys say fear of the cane kept them on the straight and narrow in the classroom. Political correctness is breeding a group of kids who are getting away with blue murder. (Thats a saying we have) High school teachers here have said that when they have tried to restrain a kid who is running amok in the classroom they say "Keep your hands off me or I will charge you with assault" I would hate to be a high school teacher today or even a junior high school teacher.

Carolyn

I just remembered a situation that occurred in one of the English classes I taught in the early 1970's. A boy was unhappy with a B for a grade instead of an A. He was complaining about it loudly at my desk in front of the whole class. I explained why I gave him that B and he shouted, "Well, that reason SUCKS!" That word was really shocking back then. It was one of the big swear words at that time. It's pretty much lost its impact over the years since, but I was really shocked at his words then. I sent him to my boss, the dept. chairman, and expected something done about it like a detention for the boy. My boss called me to his office where he was sitting with the boy. My boss said to me, "Everybody uses that word." No detentions for the boy. He gave me a big smirk.

That's the kind of thing that really got to me. My boss was a total whimp. He refused to do anything if a student caused trouble in the classroom. And there was nothing I could do about anything serious except by just trying to maintain order in class myself.

I remember when one of my co-teachers had his car egged. Inside. A student broke raw eggs all over the inside of his car. I already mentioned how one of my students slit the roof of my convertible beetle with a knife. And my windows being shot out with a BB gun, one at a time, over four days. The scary thing was I didn't live in the town where I taught. This kid found out where I lived. Creepy.

Stevie Smith - Not Waving But Drowning

Nobody heard him, the dead man,
But still he lay moaning:
I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.

Poor chap, he always loved larking
And now he's dead
It must have been too cold for him his heart gave way,
They said.

Oh, no no no, it was too cold always
(Still the dead one lay moaning)
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.

Ginny, I hope this poem is not terribly out of place. The first time I read it, years ago, I loved it. For the life of me I could not remember the author. I had to google it.

Anyway, this poem reminds me of FM's life for a time in the school system. I can't feel angry at him. I feel all of us at some point in life, maybe more than once, find ourselves drowning in life and waving for help. That mixed up period when life does not feel like life, death is too strange or foreign to think of and all of our "waving" our words just confuse everybody around us. It's that time of total confusion, a time of feeling lost.

Marni, I feel FM felt very badly about those incidents where he physically put hands on the students too. This brings me back to the school system. What brings a person like FM to such a place where he loses it and almost finds himself becoming an aggressive person? Is there a solution for school violence whether committed by the teacher or by the student?

Actually, Bella, I had McCourt tagged as shy from the beginning. And doing his best to work in spite of it. Which is, I think, one reason his stories were so important. It began from answering questions from the students, and was the first time he was able to hold their attention. It was a way around the shyness and timidity.

I read with considerable shock some of the posts about violent teachers, ..far more than I would have expected. McCourt's single slap with a magazine,,,, of which he was ashamed....seems to be a regrettable, but undersandable, lapse.

On another subject, I was surprised that an English-speaking Irishman had never heard of things like asparagus or tangerines. At first I wondered if perhaps the Brits had another word for the grocery items he mentioned. But on second thought, I realized that markets catering to poor neighborhoods probably don't carry things like asparagus, tangerines and aubergines. (What is an aubergine, by the way?)

Getting into Ch. 11, the differences between teaching styles becomes clearer. There is the 'tough, disciplined teacher', whose message is: "I am your teacher, not your counselor, not your confidant, not your parent. I teach a subject: take it or leave it."

FM is of the kind that doesn't "see a class as one unit sitting and listening to me. There are faces showing degrees of interest or indifference. It's the indifference that challenges me."

The first style is, IMO, more appropriate to the college lecturer who faces 136 students in a large hall. His job is to teach a subject. Learning it is the students problem. Before college, I would think a more personal contact is important in stirring a student's interest in learning.

Thinking back, I don't think it is the first type of teacher that I remember. It's the teacher who saw us as individuals, and responded to us as individuals, that we remember.

Babi

PS: ALF, Andy eventually grew to be 6'4". Food was always high on his list of Very Important Matters.

Babi

#289.....What brings a person like FM to such a place where he loses it and almost finds himself becoming an aggressive person?

I have to say he was not "almost" finding himself becoming an aggressive person, He WAS an aggressive person. In therapy he could have addressed this, but instead he ran away. He seems to run away from every chance in his life to help him overcome his issues.

#285.....I believe he said it never happened again.

As we all read, he had many incidents of physical abuse to the students as I pointed out in my post #726

#285...Is there a solution for school violence whether committed by the teacher or by the student?

Yes, there is a solution...Don't teach, go find a job where you can release your aggression somewhere else. Teaching is not for everyone who thinks they want to teach. He not only did not have self control but he rebelled against every school he taught in. He used the classroom for his stage and he used storytelling because as he admits, he did not have the education or ability to teach the material expected in the lesson plan. I can not count how many times so far he says how he should not have become a teacher. I am only agreeing with him.

I can't imagine having a teacher like him or any teacher that could slap a child in Kindergarten, 3rd grade or High School. It is not acceptable behavior at any age. It has a legal name...ASSAULT whether its in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, or 2000. I was raised in a home where it happened on a daily basis. Yes, back then the laws for domestic violence or child abuse was not the same as today. I have the emotional scars still to show for it. If as a child if I would have gone to school and felt the fear in my classroom, as I did in my home I can't imagine me surviving.

I am aware of the type of schools you describe where gangs and violence was a threat. BUT...unless you are physically threatened by one of these type of students.....you do not have any right to put your hands on them. FM was never physically threatened in any of the incidents, he was egotistically threatened. The law does not see that as an excuse for what he did.

Try to keep in mind he never told us this was ever a place he felt threatened by the violence you describe in your posts. None of these students threatened him. He was the aggressor!

Let's not defend the abuser, he has issues that need to be addressed but not defended or excused. Whether he felt bad or didn't does not make the act any less wrong. He may have, but not once did he express aloud his apology, that would have been too great an act for him, on his stage.

BELLA! We were posting at the same time.

I agree there is no excuse for violence against children; no argument there. But then look at the teacher who repeatedly slapped a child who could not speak properly, and actually threw a child out the window. (I assume is was first-story, since there is no indication the woman was charged with murder.) Why was a woman like this woman not immediately fired from her job? Why weren't assault charges brought against her? Certainly, there should have been.

Then look at the students attitude toward McCourt. They are easy with him. When he tries a get tough approach, the response seems to be 'Oh,Yeah, yeah'. They are not afraid of him. They see him as "on their side". I cannot see FM as a violent man. Children do not react like this to violent people.

Anyone can lash out in a reaction too quick for cool thought. I once slapped my elder daughter w/o even thinking about it, an instant reaction to something she said. I can't even remember now what it was. To this day I am ashamed when I remember that, but it was not something I did deliberately. That was the only time I ever slapped any of my children.

Babi

#292.. Anyone can lash out in a reaction too quick for cool thought. I once slapped my elder daughter w/o even thinking about it, an instant reaction

Don't confuse the acts.... slapping your child without thinking is quite different from FM stating in his book how he thought about exactly what he wanted to do. He did not do any of these acts out of anger. He thought about exactly what the situations were, he deliberated on how he wanted to deal with each of these incidents.

I can completely understand and sympathize with your situation of slapping with anger and then feeling badly. All parents may have experienced an incident like that. I can say there was a time I did the same as you. I did apologize to my teenage daughter and hugged her and said there was no excuse for me to slap. I don't think every parent has to examine their discipline through FM's behavior. I am stating.....HE had NO right to put his hands on these students and continue to be allowed to teach.

I don't feel I can agree with you as to you said....... "Children do not react like this to violent people."

Many therapists would argue the point that yes, children react exactly like this out of fear, confusion, and loyalty. They see the teacher as the authoritive figure, usually if they try to tell their parents, especially back then, the parents defended the teacher. Children still sit in silence and submission all the time to authoritive abuse. I think FM needed therapy, to deal with all his issues he went through as a child. He tells of the abuse he saw and experienced in his classroom as a child, yet repeats it as an adult in his own classrooms. It was repeated behavior....NOT one isolated incident. He grew to be a man of angst and ailment and didn't know why.

As I stated in my prior post, NO teacher has the right to be in a classroom if they can NOT control their urges to physically harm a child. They leave scars of a lifetime on students who go on to the next grade. They never see those kids again, and yes like Ginny and many others, they block it out or deal with it on other emotional levels throughout their lives. I refuse to romanticize or give any merit to a teacher like FM. He does not give himself praise, why should I? To emotionally or physically abuse one child does not excuse you and give you the title of a great or brilliant teacher. People are seeing him in a far better light than his students or himself. I can see a few students may have thought he was great, but then we have to take his word on that, he is the author. Again, I have to agree with some of the earlier posts and wonder how much of this is fact or fiction? It does read like a book intended to be made into another movie.

For my own peace of mind I want to choose alot of embellishment, so I don't have to think of the harm he did in his 30+ years of teaching. I do not despise FM, I feel very sorry for him and sorry the school system allowed him to teach as long as they did.

I love reading this discussion in my time off from getting ready for the Bash in Montreal and I would like to join you, but it won't leave me much time.

My schooling was so different from all of yours that it seems to me as if I was reading a gripping novel. I found SierraroseCA's post riveting and others just fascinating.

I don't remember learning anything in primary school during the depth of the great Depression and I wanted to start from scratch after my 6 children were born when I went back to school, in French at first then in English.

It's all the time I have for now, but after the Bash is over on July 25th, I will try and join you for the few days that are left, meantime let me just enjoy what you all have to say about teachers and school in general.

Éloïse

OH, MY GOLLY! THIS IS SERIOUS. I MUST RETURN TO THE BOOK AND READ THE INCIDENT - IS IT JUST ONE - OF MCCOURT BEING VIOLENT AND ABUSIVE. I NEVER GOT THAT IMPRESSION AT ALL!

AND I SAID I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE HIM FOR DINNER IN MY HOME - IMAGINE WANTING AN ABUSIVE PERSON IN MY HOME!

YES, I MUST RETURN AND READ THOSE PAGES AGAIN!

McCourt. When you are dealing with "tough guys" you have to be a tough guy yourself. Actually they respect you for it and consider you a wimp if you aren't, and keep testing you. These were not young children. Most of the boys were probably bigger than McCourt was.

As for losing his temper and slapping Hector, this is a memoir. One can gild the lily in a memoir or be brutally honest with oneself. I think McCourt is being brutally honest with his failures as well as his successes. He's not a god; he's a mere human being with a limit to his endurance and patience, and in the 1950s the term "abuse" had a different definition than it has now. So he was probably merely a man of his time, and probably even ahead of his time for feeling remorse for what he did. Most teachers who slapped probably never felt any remorse at all.

As I said before, I also believe a teacher is only a secondary authority, and a little slap from a secondary authority is not going to scar a child for the rest of his/her life (outright abuse is different). The scars are more likely to remain when a parent abuses a child, because a parent is supposed to love a child. They don't expect love from a teacher.

Hats: That poem about "not waving but dying" is very heavy. Wow. I'm not even sure what it all means. But what a vivid picture just those few words are.

It made me think of a very specific event. My parents were on a day cruise on their friends' cabin cruiser out in the Atlantic right near Long Island Sound. The boat sank. Luckily there were enough life preservers and boat seats so everyone had something to hold onto. The boat sank in 1 minute. They bobbed around in the Atlantic for hours. At one point a boat went by not too far away. Those in the water frantically waved for the boat to come over to help them. The people on the boat thought they were waving and just waved back and went on. Hours later they were saved.

The poem is gripping. I can just imagine a person living on the edge, struggling with life, giving off distress signals for help, barely hanging on, but to others being the picture of wellbeing, happiness, and success.

What do you think the poem is saying?

Marni, I am glad your parents were saved. It's funny how signals are misread. At the end of the poem, I gave my thoughts about it.It is just my idea of what the poem means. To me, the poem seemed to fit FM's life at this time. I wrote just about the same thoughts you wrote in your post above.

SierraroseCA.....If you go back and reread each incident, no where does he say he lost his temper. He contemplated his actions. No where did he say he was being physically threatened or provoked by "tough guys."

"He's not a god; he's a mere human being with a limit to his endurance and patience, and in the 1950s the term "abuse" had a different definition than it has now. So he was probably merely a man of his time, and probably even ahead of his time for feeling remorse for what he did."

Abuse....in any dictionary back then or now is the same definition. He knew he could get fired for it and did, just as a reported incident today would have the same effect. A man of his time because he said he felt remorse???? Here is where he... gilds the lily, I think.

"a little slap from a secondary authority is not going to scar a child for the rest of his/her life (outright abuse is different)."

I believe FM actually said,"I slapped him across the face with the magazine." pg. 126 because he would not open his magazine. This does not appear to me as "a little slap." regardless who is doing it secondary authority or not it does leave a scar. Reread the posts above and you will see what type of scars it can leave.

I do not want to feel I need to convince anyone else here that what FM did was wrong and against the law then and now. Morally if nothing else he should not have treated any of these students this way. He expressed what it did to him as a child so how can he be dismissed from his actions as a teacher inflicting the same actions on his students? I will at this point... agree to disagree... with those of you who feel differently. But maybe future questions should be.. As a parent how would you feel about FM if it were your child then or now? Would you see it as a form of abuse? Would you brush it off? Would you feel he has no place in the classroom? Just food for thought.....

I just finished reading a blog Frank's former student posted after reading Teacher Man. This former student has affirmed all my feelings about FM as I am reading this book. To summarize it:

I didn't’ take Creative Writing because it’s what I was interested in—not that I actually knew what I was interested in back when I was in high school—I took the class because Frank McCourt was so highly recommended by other students.

It should be noted here that one of the reasons he was so recommended was because he would allegedly let kids cut his class whenever they wanted to. The “cool kids” (the ones who lived on the Upper East Side) could often be seen hanging out in Stuyvesant Square Park smoking pot when they should have been in McCourt’s class.

Frank McCourt, although brilliant, witty, and a great story teller, was also full of character flaws, both as a teacher and a man. In his book ‘Tis he wrote about his problems with drinking. In Teacher Man, we see that he was unable to finish a PhD, and until he got his job at Stuyvesant he was pretty much a failure as a teacher. He knew that teaching high school was beneath him, but he lacked the ambition and drive to rise above that into a more prestigious profession.

Even though many students loved him, and he certainly made an indelible impression on me, there were other students who didn’t like him because they found him intellectually intimidating and they probably got the impression that he looked down on them.

In the end, Frank McCourt is one of his generation’s most brilliant memoirists, and he was perhaps the most witty and entertaining man ever to stand in front of a high school classroom, but he was not especially good at actually teaching high school English.

to read in its entirety...

http://www.halfsigma.com/2005/11/teacher_man_cha.html

Re: "He knew that teaching high school was beneath him, but he lacked the ambition and drive to rise above that into a more prestigious profession."

I thought he said that after he had taught high school for awhile he taught in college. He found that boring and not as challenging as teaching high school and he went back to teaching high school.??? Maybe I'm not remembering this correctly.

Somewhere back in the posts was a bit about tangerines & aubergines. During WW2 there were a lot of things that we just didn't see. An orange was a luxury. Tangerines, if you could find them came around Christmas time. Aubergine is another word for eggplant(check Julia Child) I don't remember bananas... to this day I don't care for them. Fruits & vegetables were seasonal way back then. I remember waiting for "new potatoes" the skin of which was so delicate.. and the taste...aah..! Shelling peas...!Young carrots with the tops still on.Runner beans,sliced thinly...Green onions & bread, watercress!First greens, cabbage that had not matured.My Mum was European so they were not boiled within an inch of their lives. Chopped with a knob of butter and lots of pepper. The first fruit was rhubarb which I grow to this day. Cox's orange pippins (apples) I picked greengages (a sort of green plum) for Chivers the preserve company on my summer break in High School. Hard work..I'll produce the song we used to sing later. Colkot.

One other thing that used to happen in the 1950s at least in my school was that male teachers used to put their hands on female students. The first time a male history teacher put his hand on my breast I was scared out of my wits. The girls were afraid to go to our parents because we thought they would just tell us to Obey the teacher. But we finally told the guys who were in our group. They all looked like James Dean or Marlon Brando in the Wild One with their black leather jackets etc. And what they did was that when we all sat in auditorium the guys would sit nearest to the aisles and girls were on the inside so the this guy couldn't physically touch us. It was still a scary proposition. I don't know if this happened in the New York schools, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

One last word about researching. Now I've never researched for a Phd, but I have spent the last three years researching for my novel I'm writing. The last book I wrote I also did a lot of research for. It takes alot of discipline. Every day you have alot a certain amount of time in doing this. Its just like a job except you don't get paid for anything until after you have finished the project [and that's if somebody will buy it]. I don't think McCourt was up to this discipline. I think he wanted to say he'd gone to Trinty College, like we might say we went to Harvard or Yale. [Actually my daughter did go to Harvard, but she didn't like it at all. She said she is learning more now in PSU than she ever did at Harvard for half the price.] At any rate I think McCourt really wanted to be a writer and I wish he had spent his time in being more productive to that project rather than doing something just because he thought he got some prestige in doing it. He's a good storyteller and I am a firm believer that people should strive in the field they are good at.

. . . to disagree. I refuse to sit in judgment of him. We all have our flaws. Some of ours may be different from McCourt, but we still have them, and they can be just as devastating to other people, whether we admit it or not. At least McCourt was honest enough to face his, and I have to give him credit for that even if I don't condone what he did.

This is a memoir, not a how-to on teaching, and being a memoir, he admits to his wrongdoing while he was still young and inexperienced and probably not that much in love with being a teacher in the first place. That's what a memoir is---the good, the bad and the ugly. If it were all just wonderful memories and pro-McCourt hype telling us how perfec he was, I would find it boring and frankly, quite unbelievable. And he doesn't go into great detail as to whether or not he felt any guilt because then it would have become a psychological treatise, a mea culpa story, equally boring.

If he had written a how-to book about teaching and given the slapping incident as an example of the correct thing for a teacher to do, then I would be extremely critical of him. As it is, I simply can't be.

But that's what makes the world go round---that sort of difference of opinion that leads to some interesting discussions. Apparently you feel very intensely about his "abuse", and I'm sure you have your own very good reasons. I just can't get as excited about it, I guess.

As for your question of: "As a parent how would you feel about FM if it were your child then or now? Would you see it as a form of abuse? Would you brush it off? Would you feel he has no place in the classroom?"

No, I would not brush it off, but I wouldn't necessarily see it as a form of abuse either, unless there was a mark left on the child; and no, hitting by the teacher has no place in the classroom. But that is because I was an involved parent. If my children did something wrong or misbehaved, I expected to be told about it by the teacher, and I reserved the right to punish them. I never left that to the discretion of the teacher, and I heard the child's side of the story also before I gave punishment. In the case of Hector not opening his book, I would probably just shrug and say, "Well, what did you learn from this? Do you think the teacher would have done this if you had opened your book as you were asked to do?" and let him think about it---again, unless there was a mark on the child. In either case, I would have discussed it with the principal and insisted that I was the only one who had a right to punish my child and that the teacher should be reprimanded. But I would not think it's the end of the world for my child or insist that it be the end of a job for a teacher, or that the person was unfit to teach.

I believed in protecting my children from haphazard of brutal harm; but I also expected them to obey those in authority or be aware of the consequences----especially in high school. The smaller they were, the more protection they got from me, and as they got older I expected them to use some judgment about whether or not they deserved whatever was dished out because they played a combative part.

We are talking about high school kids here---not kindergarten kids. Kids who know the score and know the rules, and ought to be able to know the consequences when they defy the rules.

That's just my opinion. I'm not asking anyone to share it.

. . . did some questionable things. She never told me directly about it, but one day in walking by her room I overheard her and a classmate discussing how they always kept the desk between him and themselves because "he liked to touch" and they were very uncomfortable with him. Of course, after overhearing that I questioned them further about it, and they confirmed that they felt uneasy with him even though neither of them had ever put herself in harm's way with him.

The next day I went directly to the principal and explained what the girls had told me. She confirmed that there had been other complaints about this particular teacher, but that he had tenure and she would not fire him---or could not fire him.

Thereupon I informed her that as a parent I was not willing to take such a risk with my daughter, even though nothing had actually happened to her, and that I wanted her OUT OF HIS CLASS. I didn't care what sort of firedrill she had to go through to do this, but I demanded that it be done. And it was. My daughter was very happy in the new class and there were no more complaints.

I do know as soon as this man became eligible for retirement they did retire him. As for the other parents not taking the same action, what can I say except that I was not responsible for their children. They were. And I was responsible for mine and did what I needed to do, and also brought it to the attention of the principal.

Personally I never even once had a male teacher who did anything uncomfortable in the way of suggestions or touching. Maybe I was just a lucky girl. My father had also taught me what to look for and how to protect myself, and I would have gone straight to him if anything like that had ever happened.

I do like the way that Scrawler describes the boys in the class protecting the girls. They may have looked like hoods, but obviously they were gentlemen. Good short story in that Scrawler---at least I think so.

I was happy to hear you say, "I don't condone what he did."

I did not see this as anything but a memoir, yet the questions and the discussions have gotten into whether or not we agree with his teaching methods and his behaviors, etc. So that is where I was at with my posts and feelings.

Yes, I do feel very intensely about my feelings, and thank you for acknowledging that. I would not expect others to share the same passion I write with, yet I do respect others opinions.

Your reactions to the "possibility" of inappropriate sexual harassment to your daughter shows me I think had she had Mr. McCourt, and he had treated her in any of the incidents he did the students I mentioned, not just Hector, you would have reacted in the same manner. An involved parent is on top of the situations and sadly I am sure back in FM's time there was little next to no parent involvement.

I was a school teacher for fifteen years, so yes, I agree children must be taught to respect authority. But...let me say in your daughter's class and in Scrawler's class and many others testaments, these teacher's did not deserve the respect they were being given. It makes me think of all the inappropriate behavior that went on for years in the Catholic church with priests and children. Yes, these kids stayed silent, continued to be subjected to these highly respected, authoritive figures and lived with the scars the rest of their lives. So when you say unless there was a mark left on the child, my heart hurts because the only marks left from abuse in many situations are the marks of emotional scars. But....I am NOT continuing the argument of FM here. Just responding to your's and Scrawler's post.

Again, thank you and have a great day!

Wow! I thought what happened here on the farm today was interesting, you don't always have your own private Old Faithful to look at, the old pipes behind the barn sort of planned a Fountain Surprise for us, but then I came in here and what fantastic thoughts and posts! Another fountain, this time of great thoughtful posts!

I have much to say on all of them, but first I do want to say that we broke two records in here, the first I'm not as sure of as I would like to be, but have done some checking and I don't seem to see the like, but the second I AM sure of.

First we hit 50 readers (Andrea is our 50th) and we also have had one of our book discussions for the first time, ever in our long history and hundreds of books discussed, to influence a Teacher Training or In-service, thank you very much EllH!!!

That is the first time in 10 years that a simple SeniorNet book discussion has been extrapolated that way and it's important.

The thought that one future child might benefit from one of our book discussions is remarkably wonderful, to me. Thank you.

Who knew this book would ignite such passions, it's a perfect book for a book discussion, it really is. And to think I despaired, but you all came thru.

Look what all we've talked about so far and we're only half way thru. The magic of our book discussions on SeniorNet IS the diversity of prior experience and the cordiality with which we discuss differences, I believe there's nothing else like them in the world.

So we've taken up the issues of the teacher abusing students, and the time frame these instances occurred in, the various reasons given, and what we all think, of the man involved, or the situation. I think depending on a person's own familiarity with the subject at hand, the reaction will be different, and that's good. We are all entitled to feel exactly as we do.

I think each person has also made excellent points, as Ella said these are serious matters for a book discussion, but thankfully we've now come into the relative sunshine of Chapter 12 and "Coming Alive in Room 205." And we're going to end on a high note.

The issue of why any negative remarks might be included was something Deems talked about elsewhere and I want to put her idea here, too, to go with all the others we've advanced:

One thought that might help a little in considering the voice in the book is that although McCourt tells some very unfavorable anecdotes about himself, this move usually serves to make the reader believe that the narrator is reliable.

That is, someone who only shines the light on his good deeds is probably guilty of omission. Think of Huck Finn, for example (even though that is fiction). When Huck decides not to turn Jim (escaped slave) in, even though he knows that he will go to hell for breaking the law (and he believes this) and declares, All right then, I'll go to Hell!, we trust him even more as a truth-teller.

And I think SierraRose referred to that in one of her later posts. I am not quite so sure I do believe him, but I DO think that everything he put in here and the slant he gave it was done for a reason. Are we seeing the real Frank McCourt? What a delicious question, let's ask it? Let's ask you what you think now and then at the end.

I am still struggling with one of the questions in the heading, the incredible revelatory nature of SOME ( but not all) of his thought processes.

But first let's respond to some of your electric (really some of the best I ever read) posts.

What a joy to be able to print them again.

SierraRose, you are correct in that the Hector incident was not the same as Miss Thomas and that my reaction was influenced by that experience with her. There used to be an old Vaudeville routine called Slowly I Turned, in which the mere mention of the name Martha set off one of the men on the stage, and so this book was with me, and, I believe, anybody who has seen this type of behavior in any form in action, and McCourt himself, I think his past influenced his reactions and responses to situations, and got him in trouble.

The children in Miss Thomas' class were scared to death, afraid of her and her retaliation but this particular incident in a sea of horror was reported and I BELIEVE she "retired." I believe I remember that being said but again I was in the 3rd grade.

And compared to the horrendous experience you outlined in the snow and what Colkot experienced in the relocation in WWII, of course, it's a minor incident, perhaps in comparison, yet the aspects of the victimization are good things to discuss since it appears particularly that many were not aware they existed.

And McCourt says, himself, more than once, did you catch it, that it was normal in Catholic schools that the nuns and brothers knock the students around, even one of the principals was it said, if you want to knock kids around, teach in a Catholic School. The implication of course being that's how McCourt himself was raised and his example as Colkot said, his Irish angst and prior experiences.

And background does color a great deal of our lives. As example a friend of mine taught LD kids in an elementary school and had one child who struck out and kicked and generally reacted with blows to any situation. My friend scheduled a parent/ teacher conference and explained to the father that the child seemed to react physically and aggressively to every thing that happened, and she was concerned.

The father responded, "Air there no limbs?"

My friend thought that he was referring to legs and arms, she had no idea what he was saying and she said, why yes. And he said well you just pick you one (a limb from a tree or something), and whup the daylights out of him and he'll stop. It was not hard to see where the child had learned to beat on others.

Thank you, SierraRose, I do appreciate that kind remark on the questions!

EllH thank you for that reminiscence also, I wonder how many horror stories there ARE out there. I have a feeling there are a lot more than we think.

Scrawler, you have posed a corollary question that fascinates me.

"Sometimes our dreams or desires…are unattainable because we reach beyond our capabilities… (loved your joke here!)"Very often we set our sights so high that whatever we accomplish will nevedr satisfy us."

Now THAT is a theory! What do you all think about that one? WE grew up hearing "you can do anything you set your mind to." Is that true?

Do you all think McCourt set a higher goal in wanting to go to Trinity than he could reach?

Good one!

Andrea, you're answering yourself? Hahahaa I love the way people say it's all right to talk to yourself as long as you don't answer yourself. Who says you don't answer yourself? Hahahaa

Carolyn, will you share one memory from your memoirs as to how it was different to live in Auckland 50 years ago?

Babi, thank you, an excellent point on the time period of these Horror Teachers. The "telling on each other" is particularly nasty, I think. Precious memory of Andy! Hahaaha

Mary From Seattle, we have a ton of great reading experiences coming up this fall, here are some Coming Discussions and here are Some in the Planning stage all thru November for you to plan on!

Coklot, what an interesting experience you had going back to the school you attended. Do you think McCourt's sights were set too high, then, in wanting to go to Trinity? Thank you for reminding us of the limerick!!! I had forgotten them! Hahaha Did they originate in Limerick Ireland?

McCourt refers several times in Chapter 11 to being a Limerickman. I have no earthly idea what that means, what is special about the town of Limerick or those who come from there that others might look down on? I am at sea here but I can see it's not good.

BellaMarie, as I read your first impassioned post (which I agreed with) I thought here is a person who has experienced this in some form and in the second post you mention it. I agree that no person should lay hands on the child of another. You make a hard case against him, I would hate to be a judge facing you!

You made several interesting assessments of his character and this one I thought was particularly interesting: "He chose Trinity college because he needed to prove to himself and others that he COULD get accepted. Once there, he really did not care because like everything else in his life, it's just about proving he can."

Gosh!! Let's discuss that type of person? Are any of you like that? What do you call that type of personality? Have you ever gotten anything you wanted and found you did NOT want it?

I am like that! Golly moses. Do you all agree that FM is like this? Or not?

Love it! See next post.....

Marni, reading YOUR post reminds us all that teaching in some high schools is not a bed of roses, horrors again on the examples you cite. As you say 50 years ago things were quite different, but your school experiences and your experiences as a teacher in the '70's show (with the WEAKLING principal) how bad things can be, the eggs and the gun over 4 days when you did not live in the town are chilling and scary.

Hats, wow!! Wow!! OH wow, I have never heard of that poem or poet, THANK you for bringing that HERE!!

What does it MEAN? It's SO apropos, somebody tell us what it MEANS!

I loved your comparison of how it compared to FM's life, I think you are right on and brilliant!!!! Who IS he?

Babi, good question on the tangerines and asparagus and good answer, Colkot, the things we are learning in this discussion!!!

Whoo and Marni with the story of a life threatening waving (I'm glad they were saved, too) and the misinterpretation of it. Let's talk about WAVING and what it means and what FM means by it.

When do you WAVE?

Love it!!

We'll have to look the community college classes he taught back up and see why he left. OH wasn't it because he had no advanced degree and no desire to get one? Not sure not having looked, can anybody find those pages?

Eloise, you are Reader 51, HUZZAH! All records now shattered, how I wish I could be there in Montreal in a few days but I know everybody will return with glowing report, we look forward to seeing your happy yet exhausted face here for the last week!!! Fabulous you for going back to school!

He mentions the GRE and his extremely high score and I was not surprised, were you? (I had to hoot at his math tho, I could give him a run for his money on that one, Lowest Math Score of the Century ahahaha). The new GRE (Graduate Record Exam) is on computer. If you miss a question, the next set you get is easier. I have idly wondered where I would be in the math sections after about 3 questions? 2+2? I am that bad.

What about his strange shipmate Ted whose Whole Life Was a Prayer? What did you make of that incident?

Scrawler another incident of inappropriate teacher behavior from the 50's, I'm beginning to wonder how some of us got thru it but just look at the headinlies today!

I liked your thoughts on discipline and BellaMarie's on respect.

Let's add the questions brought up here today and spend one more day on Chapter 11 and then move in to 12 on Wednesday! A Limerick…er…tuppence (?) for your thoughts!

". . . yet the aspects of the victimization are good things to discuss since it appears particularly that many were not aware they existed."

My father, who was a cop after WWII, told me that most women and children are victimized because they don't SPEAK UP immediately. It's considered impolite to speak up and make a lot of noise when something bad is happening. He advised me that in order to avoid being a victim, I need to shout and scream and holler and cause a huge fuss at the time something is happening (not afterwards) and to heck with politeness---in order to embarrass the perpetrator in front of as many witnesses as possible. He also informed me that no matter how many threats the perpetrator throws at me, that I was to come to him and tell him what happened. The one time I went to him after a neighbor hit me, he defended me loud and clear.

I never needed the techniques in school, but I would have used them (and maybe I just had that sort of aura because of my dad's having informed me about what to do). I have needed it at work, used it, and it worked. Because I did it right in the office with dozens of witnesses present. Yes, it was embarrassing, but I'd rather have an embarrassing moment than continued sexual harrassment because I was quiet about it. No way! I also filed a complaint against the perpetrator that very day. And no, I was not scared of losing my job. If the company had not backed me I wouldn't have wanted to work for such a place anyhow. Let me tell you, that guy stayed clear of me from then on, and probably never tried it with anyone else either after his face turned beet red in public.

So it's a parent's job to tell their children what is and is not appropriate, and to tell them they ought to defend themselves and not be intimidated by threats. Actually I believe Hector did that. He walked out of class, and I would think it was probably a growing experience in the end for Hector because he learned how to defend himself---not that one would deliberately want such a growing experience, but one can use bad experiences for growth unless they end in permanent damage. At least that has always been my philosophy.

However, if someone has been through abuse, I certainly can understand why it would become a highly emotional button, and I do have a lot of empathy for that. A child needs to know how to defend him/herself, and needs to know that he will have support from his parents even if the perpetrator makes threats and there is a family row about it. That goes for teachers, priests, ministers, older brothers, uncles and aunts, neighbors, and other sundry people. That's why parental abuse is so devastating to a child. He has no one to go to and no one he can trust.

I have to say, with all the episodes of abuse I have heard about from various people, I must have been a very lucky child. The experiences of war are nothing compared to being emotionally abandoned by parents, and my mother never emotionally abandoned us. Neither did my father when we came together as a family again.

My children were not quite so lucky. Because of major cultural differences about child raising between my husband and myself, I deferred to my husband, especially since I was the foreigner here and not familiar with child raising techniques in this culture. He thought I was too strict in some ways and too matter-of-fact in other ways. But he often abandoned them, and I stepped in only when I knew what was happening. I'm sure there were times when I did not know. But that's another story.

Auckland 50 yrs ago was what I would call neighbourly. It was very small by world standards. We had trams and trolley buses and altogether a much better public transport system than we have today. I lived in a central city suburb in a large apartment which was one of two owned by my maternal grandparents. We knew everyone in the neighbourhood. We would walk into the central business district if Mum did not have enough money for a tram. We had old fashioned department stores with those delightful uniformed elevator operators and our largest store had a roof garden which was full of activities for kids. You could eat lunch on a balcony which ran round the whole roof above the play area.

Hardly anyone in the city owned their own cars. We got our first car when I was 6 years old. Even then the car was not used for every day outings. We walked everywhere.

There was virtually no crime. We never locked our doors even in the central city where we lived.

The most amazing thing about Auckland then was that you could be downtown and recognise other shoppers. That would be very unlikely to happen today.

Everyone had charge accounts at all the stores big or small and were either paid weekly or with the very large stores monthly. Those were very different days. We were a community. We are not a community now.

Carolyn

My oldest son, his wife & children were visiting with me last week. My daughter-in-law IS a teacher and was fascinated with the postings that were going on while she was here. She is qualified to teach thru highschool but chose to work with younger children(my grandkids are 12 & 10) simply because her two could be at the same institution with her when they were younger. My son works one of the odd shifts at the newspaper, starting late so he oversees the children in the mornings.Nat does 7-12 so she is available when they come home. They are involved with their kids activities, such as soccer and Drums of Thunder.Both children are very bright and articulate love to read, draw, and do all kinds of stuff. We love Scrabble.. imagine being beaten by a 12 year old...what a great win!! Nat mentioned that the town they live in is very competative and affluent, the parents seem to have an influence on the schools and teachers. I know that my son turned down a job in Washington DC because they are very pleased with the schooling the children are receiving.It seens to me that the system they have going there is much more open and less insular than many I have been exposed to. Nat intends to read the McCourt book, it's on her list for later, but probably will not be able to join in the discussion, but I'll pass on any comments she may have to make. Colkot

McDonnell-Douglas we often entertained the pilots in training, and I remember a bunch from Auckland, NZ. They were really nice guys, and we questioned them endlessly about life in NZ. After they went back home they sent us a subscription to an Auckland newspaper, and I was fascinated by it. That was in the 1960s, probably still a very innocent time in the way you describe.

I lived in a small town in Canada from about 1947 to the early 1950s, and I remember it being just the way you described also. But since then I've read some books by Canadian authors which claim things were not as innocent as they looked. It was just that the abuse and alcoholism were hidden. I wouldn't know because I had a family in which there was neither, and who was very protective of my brother and me, while at the same time giving us a lot more freedom than any of my friends had.

Sierra - i agree w/ you about speaking up immediately. When i worked for the Dept of Army, i did training in Prevention of Sexual Harrassment and the biggest benefit of the training was that the women felt as tho they were given "permission" to speak up immediately. We did role playing that gave them some options of how and what to say, so they didn't feel as tho they had to scream at the guy or attack him for what he did ---- often men are doing what they would call flirting and are largely being harmless and if women calmly and firmly say "I'm not interested" or "that is offensive to me, don't do it again" that's the last of it.

RE: the principal who said she couldn't do anything about the teacher's sexual harrassment because he had tenure BALONEY! I am very tired of supervisors who say they can't fire people - teachers or gov't workers for example. They CAN fire them for cause IF the supervisor has done their work and documented what has happened and is willing to take a stand! It's a pure cop out for a supervisor to say the system won't let them fire a bad employee! It just means they are too lazy or timid to do what needs to be done.

Yes, things are worse in most schools today than they were 50 yrs ago, but i have a friend you went to high school in the Bronx in the 40's which was a huge school, 1000's of students and they had cops in the hallways and a rape in the stairwell, so we need to be careful about thinking every school and situation was the same as our own.......jean

Sierra-rose - Murders even in the sixties were less than one a year. There was a double murder in 1967 and I remember the papers were full of it for months. The whole country was in a state of shock. Now there are several murders a week. We were a nicer more law abiding and a more innocent people when I was a child. I never remember a child abduction taking place in my childhood.

Carolyn

Thank you Carolyn, Jean, Sierra Rose and Colkot, wonderful posts.

I think the world is quite a bit different now than it was 50 years ago, although I am not sure human nature is. Some of the most horrific things I ever saw are chronicled in newspapers of the 1880's.

But now parents are teaching children about "danger stranger," we never saw that in the Eisenhower 50's, we walked to school, I took the subway as a 5 year old in center Philadelphia to visit my grandmother in 1948, can you imagine, and did it regularly, unheard of today.

I think a child taught by a parent to speak up, should he be lucky enough to get the chance, is lucky, and it's a good rule for all children, but not all children as SierraRose points out have those parents to back up on, and that's the real tragedy.

Sometimes it's the parents themselves, last year Joel Steinberg was released from prison. If you don't recall his case you might want to look it up. At any rate his child Lisa not only attended school, she had become something of a tiny celebrity, some sultan of something was interested in helping her in some way, I no longer remember what. She had no one she could trust, her parents were a respected children's book editor (mother) and attorney (father) and so said nothing (who could she trust?) and it was too late.

As a teacher I also had somewhat of a similar incident that McCourt reports with the girl who wrote about the inappropriate behavior, in this case a perfectly gorgeous girl in the 9th grade mentioned offhand what happened to her when she got less than a C in Latin. She was not a good enough student to get better than a C. What to do?

If you report it then the parent over whom you have no control might retaliate in worse ways if that's possible, and you would never know, if you're dealing with a cretin who would do that in the first place you're on another playing field, what to do? I did report it to the guidance counselor, and apparently somewhat ballistically as I saw a report filed when the father was called in, that "Mrs. Anderson is very upset and says if she sees one more hint of this happening she will immediately call the police..." etc.

I also never gave that child less than a C for the rest of the term, no matter what was on the paper, shoot me. Could have been blackmail but I don't think so from the marks, which I noticed in the first place.

Let's turn our attention now away from the subject of child abuse, which is a serious issue, and one in the newspaper every day of the week, one which is never ever the fault of the child, never, and move to the sunnier aspects of the rest of the book.

It would not be a service to the book or Frank McCourt to focus solely on these incidents, I think we've faced the Elephant in the Living Room and addressed it beautifully and well, hearing from all sides on the issue. I'm interested now in the questions in red, the fellow passenger on the boat, and the Coming Alive in Chapter 12.

Waving at the rest of the world. I love that metaphor and what it says. He hoped to be accepted at Trinity but he was waving. He was a "Limerickman," whatever that is, and not accepted, why can't he rise above that, or is he trying? IS he trying? How much can you ask of anybody? How much do your....should we say roots? I don't know what a Limerickman IS...hamper you? If they do?

Let's discuss his reach exceeding his grasp or any of our reaches exceeding our grasp, here on our last day of Chapter 11.

How about question 10 in the heading? I really want to know what you think about Question 10!

Ginny, I think we are seeing the "real" Frank McCourt. He doesn't pretend to love working on the docks. Neither does he pretend to have found his place in the school system. He doesn't paint himself as the great American schoolteacher. He doesn't say he had the most orderly classes in the school. He admits to being in awe of Trinity college. I think he is being truthful. This is the same Frank McCourt you would meet in a published book or sitting down in a kitchen telling a story or sitting down at the corner pub. Frank McCourt isn't wearing a mask.

I wish Ginny had some photographs of Trinity college.

Maybe Frank McCourt becomes really "real" because he tells about the times society made him choose to try and pretend at being someone other than himself. He keeps no secrets.

Like the time FM went back to Ireland. He pretended to have an American accent. The lady waiting on him says

"If your from Alabama, I'm the queen of Romania."

He's tells us about being a trickster. A person who wanted to be accepted by society. Not knowing that first he had to come to grips with being comfortable under his own skin.

All of humanity are flawed. FM is flawed too. Does bringing his flaws to light mean he deserves to be punished?

Thank you Hats, I can't on this ISP look up photos of Trinity College, maybe somebody else has some they could put in here. I have never been to Trinity, isn't it in Dublin Ireland? I have never been to Ireland for that matter, but I can put in photos of Christ Church College in Oxford, not that that pertains in any way.

Why Trinity I wonder? Golly there are tons of universities in the US and he took the AMERICAN GRE, wonder why Trinity? It must have symbolized something to him, but he remained on the outside.

If we wrote down every time he said he was behind a mask waving at the rest of the world (while drowning personally? Love that poem) we'd have a page full.

And what about THIS? "I rarely said what was on my mind, anyway." (page 168).

But in THIS book aren't we seeing just that? We see what he thinks when he looks at Andrew, for instance, how can he REMEMBER that all these years later? Has anybody given that much thought? Could YOU recreate what YOU thought about so many incidents 40 years later? I continue to puzzle over this book, but it's a perfect venue for a book discussion!

Hats, what a marvelous question, you always ask the best questions!!

All of humanity are flawed. FM is flawed too. Does bringing his flaws to light mean he deserves to be punished?

Who of us could punish Frank McCourt? I was just idly wondering when you wrote this if this book IS a sort of "mea culpa," I'll hang it all out (there's no way this is ALL of it) or some of it out, and then the reader will....

The reader will? Fill in the blanks......

I don't think any of us want to punish him, and if we did, tant pis, we could not, and our thoughts about him, positive or negative, would not matter to him, so why did he write it at all?

What a fascinating topic. What a fascinating man. What a fascinating discussion.

Trinity College reminds me of Girard school in Philadelphia. I remember driving pass that school. It had a tall black fence around it. No people of color were allowed to attend that school. As a child I wondered, what was it like inside? What were the boys like who went there? What had the founder of the school been like? Because it was forbidden, I thought it had to be more exciting than my school. Now I think all children of any background can go to Stephen Girard's school. My experience is from a long time ago. I have no idea what it's like now.

Girard College

I think this is, in a small way, how FM might have felt about Trinity College.

Girard!! One of the stops on the subway line to my grandmother's! I had to memorize them. Ticonderoga, Girard....I had forgotten GiRARD.

I had no idea what they were, tho.

Hats, I think that's a great extrapolation, so IF he finally DID get into a " Girard" experience, say, why did he fail? He found out it was not what he thought? OR?

It may have symbolized something he felt he saw from the outside, always on the outside looking in. Is he STILL on the outside?

Ginny, I love your questions too. I am always afraid of not making the right connection or making a wrong relationship. I think FM was a bit of an insecure person too.

Hats---Try this link for two photographs of Trinity College Dublin.

Deems, thank you! It's breathtaking.

Ginny ~ You said you "have no earthly idea what that means, what is special about the town of Limerick..."

Tonight, Tuesday, there's a PBS program about Ireland and Limerick, at 8 or 9 p.m., for those in the U.S. whose station is carrying it. Perhaps it will tell us more about that town, and how it has changed.

. . . . England, and in Ireland, are much more class oriented and regional. Some regions are looked down upon. If Trinity College was established by the English, then those who graduated from there probably looked down upon a Limerickman, Limerick being a "catholic" region of Ireland.

It's difficult for an American to understand since, here, if one has ambition and works hard, one can always overcome the class and the religious thing. That would have been impossible there. So I understand McCourt wanting to be in Trinity. By that time the American influence had given him the guts to go there, and when he went he probably saw that in Ireland itself nothing had changed and he still did not belong; so he didn't finish and went back to America. I just think he saw how impossible it was to beat the system over there and gave up on it. It has nothing to do with a character flaw and everything to do with being an immigrant and learning that the old rules no longer apply, yet the new rules have not been quite integrated. It's confusing. I've seen plenty of immigrants struggle with this confusion. McCourt is no different.

That reminds me of a story. When I was about 9 years old we went to visit an aunt and cousins in a certain region of Germany. There was a village festival going on and everyone was having a great time. All of a sudden a hush came over the place, the band stopped, the dancing stopped, the talk stopped, beer steins stopped in the middle of taking a swig, and everyone stood at attention. Never having been exposed to anything like this, I asked my cousin what in the heck was going on. She explained that the local "gentry" had arrived and that we were all supposed to stand there and be still until they indicated the festival could proceed. I was outraged, because my family. even though my father was somewhat of a tyrant, still had democratic ideals, and I couldn't fathom the ritual of them "allowing us to proceed". I began to laugh at how absurd it all was. My aunt had to take me away because I wouldn't stop laughing and making fun of it all. It just struck my funny bone that because someone had what they called "blue blood" we all had to act like servants.

I'm sure some of the same class division went on in Ireland (and still does), especially between the native Irish and the English, the Catholics and the Protestants. So even though most of Ireland is Catholic, the Anglican part influenced by England looks down its nose at anyone who comes from Catholic Ireland, refuses them jobs, advancement, admission to educational institutions, etc. That's one of the reasons for the sort of endless civil war that's been going on in Ireland just about forever. McCourt felt inferior in both regions, since his mother was one of the Catholic Irish and his father came from the north of Ireland which is all Protestant and under the English influence.

I know----very difficult to understand unless you've lived through it. But the regional prejudices would amaze the average American. And in Europe they aren't even as bad as they are in some other parts of the world, although they are bad enough. Gads, I hate even thinking about it except that it reminds me of hens in a chickenyard with their silly pecking order.

I think McCourt never quite got over that sort of background, and he had to prove himself. Well he did. He's more famous than all of them put together. Go McCourt!!!!!!!!

"---- What do you all think about that one? We grew up hearing "you can do anything you set your mind to." Is that true?"

NO WAY is that true for anywhere but America and maybe some other nations such as NZ or Australia and Canada. In the rest of the world you are stuck in whatever groove you are born into no matter how hard you work and no matter how much money you accumulate.

That's the MAGIC about America, and why so many people want to come here. Anything is possible here, with hard work and a little luck. That's exactly why America is the great country it is---the human potential actually gets fulfilled by those willing to make the effort here, and that's why tribal societies with their class hierarchies often hate us as much as they do. It means loss of power for those on the top, and the fact that they would have to share power.

America is by no means perfect, but it's still the BEST place to fulfill ambition and human potential---so far. It also makes things ruthless and chaotic sometimes, but ultimately I prefer this system to any other system.

Sierrarose, My mother-in-law's parents migtated from England and she was raised and steeped in the English manner. I was Irish and Catholic-it just couldn't get any worse to her. We got along very well-never a problem. I'm sure she meant this as a compliment when one day she said in all sincerity,"I love all my grandchildren the same even though yours are Catholic." She's been dead a long time, but my husband and I still laugh about it.

I'm right with you on FM.

than to have a good laugh about absurdities like that? Yup, I'm with you. You can see by the comment your mother-in-law made that the prejudices are almost inbred and so natural they don't even notice them. It's America that opens ones eyes to just how absurd it is.

Hope you and your hubby do a good imitation of her and then have a good laugh. Not that you don't still love her, but it would be the ingrained uppityness that you are laughing at because you now know better.

Right now I'm sitting here laughing right along with you, and feeling a sadness at the same time because of the way that sort of uppity attitude keeps people down and makes them feel inferior.

SierraroseCa and EllH, your posts are great! Each is easy to understand and very descriptive. Thank you.

I behave differently w/ different people in different situations and that is ALL Jean. I talked differently to my parents than i do w/ my close friends; i talk differently to my students and on my jobs than i do w/ some of my friends. I used to talk differently to my children than i do today. Are those masks or just different parts of our personalities?....jean

Mabel, I don't think those are masks. I think those are different roles in our lives.

I came to Books today because I am so turned off by the books for sale at Target. There are so many really good books out there but discount stores like Target or Wal-Mart have (sorry to use the word "crapola" when it comes to books) sold out to idiocy when it comes to books.

This is my first time here to this discussion. I am going to have to read the posts starting from the beginning to catch up and that will take some time.

I have read his previous books and have found them very interesting and they help fill in parts of my understanding of my Irish Heritage. I am the granddaughter of an Catherine Daley who died when my father was about three years old. I grew up on Irish music and stories but know very little about my grandmother. For the past ten years I have been reading a lot of non fiction and fiction on Ireland with the hopes of one day going to Ireland. Last week I watch PBS, the History Channel and A&E and they all had programs on the Irish in America.

I have seen this book at Target and have paged through it when I am there. I am so glad this discussion is here about his book and the Ireland that we hear about on the news. I listen to Irish radio sometimes when I am on this computer. I am told by an Irish friend that Ireland is booming and there are jobs for every skill level and everything there is wonderful and that is why most of his family have moved back to Ireland because it is so much better there than in America. He has eight children (all US citiens) and six of them have moved back there and he is hell-bent to get the other two to go there too as he feels America .... I'll let that rest.

Anyway I am so glad I came here today to read what others thing of FM and the Ireland he writes about.

Delphine - Ireland is going ahead that is for sure. The affluence has not touched some sectors of the community. The projects still exist and have severe problems of poverty. I don't think it is any more a land of milk and honey than any other developed nation. It has just caught up to the rest of the developed world.

Carolyn

is there a difference between "roles" and "masks"?.......jean

Mabel, I think there is a huge difference between "masks" and "roles." When we wear a mask, we are pretending to be someone else other than ourselves. It's like hiding or living a lie. In a "role," we are not pretending. We are carrying out the duties brought to us through our own choices and those brought to us biologically like being in the role of brother, sister, aunt, uncle, etc.

I know there is such a thing called "role playing." This, I think, would lean closer to wearing a mask. In this case wearing a mask for a short time. This is to help a person understand himself better, I think. There is no negative motive in role playing. It is a way to heal psychologically. I hope this is right.

I believe everyone has the potential for at least one thing that they can do well. That is why I would like to see schools emphasize the individual achievement more.

For example everyone in my family is very musical except for myself. Now in the 1950s it was considered proper to give music lessons to your daughters and even to your sons. While my sister excelled at music, I tended to hear the neighborhood dogs howl when I attacked the panio keyboard. I remember one time that my father came into the room where I was practicing and lifted my hands from the keyboard and in a whisper told me to go outside and play. I had almost made it out the door when my mother came in and stopped me. She made me go back and practice, but my father said No! there would be no more panio lessons for me. I was just not capable of hearing the music. I remember my mother being very upset because everyone else's daughter was playing the panio except for me. Later they sent me to a doctor who not only confirmed that I was tone deaf, but that I was also deaf in one ear. Now I can enjoy music, but many of the songs or tunes I can only hear by touching the top of the instrument and feeling the vibrations. Not everyone is meant to be a musican, but that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy the music. Earphones help as well so that I can hear the music.

I grew up hearing that you could do anything you set your mind to, but also to be realistic about it. When you push children into doing something they are not capable of doing or unable to do because of a physical ailment you create both frustration for the parent and the student.

One thing about the fifties that I remember is that everyone had to conform and be similar. In suburbia we all lived in the same style house and it was considered proper for young ladies to learn to dance, play musical instruments, draw, and be proper young ladies. And all I wanted to do was climb trees and write stories and poems. I wanted to be alone as Greta Garbo used to say.

Rushing in here and will come back, what marvelous thoughts, to say two things:

Thank you Mippy for that note that on PBS TONIGHT there is a program on Ireland and Limerick, at 8 or 9 pm, I do HOPE HOPE HOPE it's showing here, at LAST we will have some idea what that IS.

Thank you Deems for those glorious photos of Trinity, I have more to say on that also and

Welcome Delphine! You are participant 52 in this discussion, an absolutely unheard of number. I see you are going to get the book, so you need not necessarily read all 300 posts, if you hit Printer Friendly you will catch up on the last 100 or so. We'll move on tomorrow to Chapter 12 and the book is not particularly sequential; (it seems to me to be a compendium of episodes loosely arranged in order but not knowing the first will not hamper you), so it may be you could read where we are first and jump right in, either way, I applaud your wanting to know what others have said and welcome!!

back anon...any other thoughts on Chapter 11???

Hats, I agree that masks are different from roles. We play roles that life has given us, and out of respect for those roles we often speak in a different way to different people. I would probably not speak with my brother in the same way as I did to my father. My father was an authority figure; my brother an equal---and each had different interests and responses, and I interacted sincerely with their personalities out of choice. One speaks differently to a small child than to a teenager. I would tell my best friend a lot of things I would never tell my mother, etc.---all free choices.

A mask is a protective layer that we put on in which we hide our true selves or have no choice. We often have to wear masks just to keep things peaceful because society forces us into them. If I'm at work in a business environment, I wear my business mask or proper dress and grooming and make-up even though I might be, by nature, more comfortable and more like myself running around in jeans and bare feet. If I am forced to go to a classical concert I might wear a mask for a while to fit in with that crowd even though I might rather be at a rock festival.

It's when we get confused between the mask and our real selves that psychological problems begin, or when we wear the masks so often that we lose our real selves. And then there are people who don't know how to put on a mask at all and never fit into a particular milieu, like someone who shows up in church in a bathing suit.

I think both roles and masks are useful, but masks can be destructive unless one learns how and when to use them and is totally aware why we are using them.

Sierra Rose put everything about Ireland/England,and the troubles in perspective.And the class distinction also. My father was from the Protestant North..he came briefly to the States as a young man(I found him on the Ellis Island site)in the 1920's and stayed in Chicago. He went back to England, met my mother who was a Catholic girl from what became Czechoslovakia after WW1, a governess for a German speaking family in London.I have only seen my N.Ireland relatives 3 times in my life...my father was disowned for marrying a Catholic girl!!As to class distinction...my scholarship to an exclusive school did not preclude some of the teachers there from looking down on us because of our London as opposed to BBC type accents. My husband was also told in England that no matter how bright or smart he was..."he wasn't born there" so advancement would always be beyond his reach. So we came here under the "English Quota" in 1959 because he was married to a English born wife. This is the most WONDERFUL country to realize your potential. I am grateful daily for the opportunities given to me and my children by living HERE... Colkot P.S. a Poltroon is a complete coward.

welcome Delphine, this is a great site w/ interesting people, you will enjoy it, i'm sure......jean

By the end of Chapter 11, I am at the point of feeling as despaired as FM is. He seems so forlorn, he thought that going to Dublin he could show everyone what a success he had become. He thought going to Trinity College the elite of the elite would finally give him the accomplishment he has been searching for. He thought he would show the Catholics and the Irish he has been accepted into the best Protestant college and that he did not need their circles anymore. It was like a pie in your eye to everyone he felt had wronged him or shunned him.... hmmmm so why the unhappiness??

As I read and write these quotes from chapter 11, I can't help but ponder, Did he constantly set himself up for defeat? Did he purposefully reach for the unattainable? Why did he fail at everything? Why when he would get "the job" or get into "the College", he was never willing to do what was expected of him, to achieve his goals?

pg. 176.."Oh, but no. Little snotty-nosed Frankie from the lanes of Limerick tried to rise above his station, climb the social ladder, mingle with the better class of people, the quality of Trinity College.

pg. 177...I wandered the streets of Dublin looking for the door, I had a notion that in any city there was a way in for the outsider and the traveler...... There was no door for me in Dublin, and I had to admit finally, what ailed me: I missed New York....I dreamt of Dublin when I was a child in Limerick. Yes, but, yes, as my Unlce Pa Keating would say, You're going on forty, so it's time to shit or get off the pot......

pg. 178...A failed everything, I looked for my place in the world. I became an itinerant substitute teacher, drifting from school to school....pg.179...Principals and their assistants looked displeased when they saw me sitting at the teacher's desk reading the paper or a book in a near-empty room."

As I ponder, my thoughts continue to take me to a mental illness, called bi polar. Many great writers and highly intelligent people were bi polar. Frank did not stay in therapy long enough to be assessed or diagnosed. I have known many clinically depressed people and many bi polar and he shows many symptoms of both. It would explain a lot of his behavior and grandiose thoughts. His never sticking with something, his sabotaging his successes, his never feeling accepted, etc. etc. etc.

While I am not an expert, psychiatrist, therapist nor counselor, I have researched many illnesses and he seems to have the profile of bi-polar. There has to be an explanation for his angst and ailments. He almost seems suicidal by the end of chapter 11. Sure makes me wonder.

“Contention is better than loneliness.”

A different viewpoint: "Better a dinner of herbs where love is, than a stalled ox and hatred therewith."

I can live alone, and have. I have also lived with contention, IMO, alone is better.

Babi

My childhood was awful in some ways and idyllic in others. Five of us born to a chronically depressed mother, who never wanted to be a mother and longed for a hectic social life. The result was that we were allowed to run wild. My Uncle referred to us as "A tribe of wild Indians" If we were out of our mothers hair that is all she really wanted. We had a life filled with critters we brought home and which we brought into the house. We wandered for miles in the countryside and went to the beach for the whole day all by ourselves. I am appalled at this as I look back but to us it was idyllic. I did do elocution as my mother was into amateur theatre before she got married. We would put on plays on a Saturday night which we wrote and directed ourselves. Our audience was other kids in the neighbourhood and our mother.

Carolyn

In searching the internet I typed in... "yahoo.com famous people with Bi polar disorder", I found among a very long list of people Sigmund Freud's name.

Could it be coincidence that the first sentences in Frank McCourt's book in the Prologue says, "If I knew anything about Sigmund Freud and psychoanalysis I'd be able to trace all my troubles to my miserable childhood in Ireland. That miserable childhood deprived me of self-esteem, triggered spasms of self pity, paralyzed my emotions, made me cranky, envious and disrespectful of authority, retarded my development, crippled my doings with the opposite sex, kept me from rising in the world and made me unfit, almost for human society."

On this list of famous people are more writers and poets then any other occupation or career: Hans Christian Andersen, Arthur Benson, C.E. Chaffin, Agatha Christie, John Clare, Francis Ford Coppola, Patricia Cromwell, Emily Dickinson, T S Elliot, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Robert Frost, F Scott Fitzgerald,Kaye Gibbons, Victor Hugo,Alfred Lord Tennyson, Jack London, Robert Lowell, Mozart, Edgar Allen Poe, Mark Twain, Walt Whitman, Tennessee Williams, Samuel Johnson.

Bipolar disorder (also known as manic depression) is a treatable illness marked by extreme changes in mood, thought, energy and behavior. It is not a character flaw or a sign of personal weakness. Bipolar disorder is also known as manic depression because a person’s mood can alternate between the "poles" mania (highs) and depression (lows). This change in mood or "mood swing" can last for hours, days weeks or months.

Bipolar disorder affects more than two million adult Americans. It usually begins in late adolescence (often appearing as depression during teen years) although it can start in early childhood or later in life. An equal number of men and women develop this illness (men tend to begin with a manic episode, women with a depressive episode) and it is found among all ages, races, ethnic groups and social classes. The illness tends to run in families and appears to have a genetic link. Like depression and other serious illnesses, bipolar disorder can also negatively affect spouses and partners, family members, friends and coworkers. (top)

Symptoms of Bipolar Disorder Bipolar disorder differs significantly from clinical depression, although the symptoms for the depressive phase of the illness are similar. Most people who have bipolar disorder talk about experiencing "highs" and "lows" – the highs are periods of mania, the lows periods of depression. These swings can be severe, ranging from extreme energy to deep despair. The severity of the mood swings and the way they disrupt normal life activities distinguish bipolar mood episodes from ordinary mood changes.

Symptoms of mania - the "highs" of bipolar disorder

Increased physical and mental activity and energy

Heightened mood, exaggerated optimism and self-confidence

Excessive irritability, aggressive behavior

Decreased need for sleep without experiencing fatigue

Grandiose delusions, inflated sense of self-importance

Racing speech, racing thoughts, flight of ideas

Impulsiveness, poor judgment, distractibility

Reckless behavior

In the most severe cases, delusions and hallucinations

Symptoms of depression - the "lows" of bipolar disorder

Prolonged sadness or unexplained crying spells

Significant changes in appetite and sleep patterns

Irritability, anger, worry, agitation, anxiety

Pessimism, indifference

Loss of energy, persistent lethargy

Feelings of guilt, worthlessness

Inability to concentrate, indecisiveness

Inability to take pleasure in former interests, social withdrawal

Unexplained aches and pains

Recurring thoughts of death or suicide

Treatments for Bipolar Disorder Several therapies exist for bipolar disorder and promising new treatments are currently under investigation. Because bipolar disorder can be difficult to treat, it is highly recommended that you consult a psychiatrist or a general practitioner with experience in treating this illness. Your treatment may include medications and talk therapy.

Be sure to tell your health care providers all of the symptoms you are having. Report all of the symptoms you have had in the past, even if you don’t have them at the time of your appointment. Since these illnesses can run in families, look at your family history. Tell your health care provider if any of your family members experienced severe mood swings, were diagnosed with a mood disorder, had “nervous breakdowns” or were treated for alcohol or drug abuse. With the right diagnosis, you and your doctor have a better chance of finding a treatment that is right for you.

I may be off base and that's ok, but it sure gives you food for thought. If he was diagnosed would he have shared it in his prior books? I have not read Angela's Ashes or 'Tis. His student said he dealt with his drinking problem in 'Tis. He says his father had a drinking problem in Teacher Man. It is certainly nothing to be ashamed of and he would be in the company of many famous and highly creative, and intelligent people. As the article says, It is not a character flaw.

FM inherited his father"s love of booze as well as his storytelling and I believe Malachy had similar trouble (have not read his book yet). Angela called it 'the curse of the race), and I think it was a definite part of his problem - I think he treated his first wife badly, she must have loved him to have put up with him for so long, Angela had no other option, but his American wife was independent if she chose.

Bellamarie, I feel it's out of my place to try and make a mental diagnosis for Frank McCourt. Of course, you are a teacher. You have more of a right, maybe, to try and diagnose him.

I do know he is dealing with confusion. I think confusion is a part of introspection. First, you have to come to grips with looking at the good and bad of yourself. That's not an easy decision to make. I have often chosen not to become introspective and look at myself. My own demons can scare the life out of me.

I did think that Frank McCourt seemed to allude to some mental instability in the family. This is what I am reading or talking about.

"I didn't want to give him the kind of ammunition where he could decide I was a lunatic like certain ancestors in my family."

Maybe this is more of FM's humor. Since mental illness is genetic, is this a truthful statement about his ancestors? I don't know how to take this statement.

Golly that was a fantastic program on Limerick last night, I can't get it out of my head, were any of you able to see it? They delayed it here till 10 pm so I only saw the first 15 minutes or so, and am going to watch it again this morning before I comment, but it sure adds a lot of background here, at least for me.

Just want to throw this into the mix and come back, thank you for all the great posts I hope to address them in about an hour, want to see that show in its entirety to see if I can absorb it: the lovely Irish lilts and the beautiful countryside contrasted with,….did they really say the 7th largest GNP in the WORLD?

I must see that again.

But came rushing in to say now, kind of off subject, but in reference to his "I tried to walk out the front gate like a man accustomed to walking out that front gate. I walked very slowly so that the American tourists would notice me." (page 173) I do know where he's coming from there.

Here is another famous gate, Tom Tower

, this one seen from the inside of the Quadrangle at Christ Church Oxford. I took a course there one summer , and this is seen from the inside of the college, completely enclosed on all four sides. I seem to remember it's called the Tom Quad but that MAY be suspect!

The University of Oxford (which I did not know) is made up of several colleges, spread all over the historic town of Oxford, each of them fabulous looking and very VERY old, Christ Church College dates from Henry VIII's taking it over from Cardinal Wolsey.

That tower fronts flat on the street, slap on the sidewalk as the main gate, and you can't see it, but I'm going to look for my photos, but you don't just ponce thru those gates. Guards in bowler hats come flashing out from the sides, that tower has arched passages in it, and the guards definitely stop you. You don't just walk in there. Sometimes if school is not in session you can pay to take a tour, otherwise you gawk through the archway and try to see that Quad and fountain.

That tower has a bell called Great Tom:

Great Tom, the loudest bell in Oxford weighing seven tons, is housed inside the tower, having been taken from the 12th century Oseney Abbey after the Reformation. It chimes 101 times at 9.05 pm every evening--originally to sound curfew for the eighteenth century students as well as recalling the 101 resident students in the college when the tower was completed.

You can see better photos and read more about it here: http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/england/oxford/wren/tomtower.html

At night they draw a huge huge solid gate across that archway and if you are attending a concert in the Cathedral inside, you are essentially stuck, they expect you to go out escorted by way of the Cathedral. They do give you a temporary passkey to the smaller personnel door in the huge gate , but the thing is mammoth and you need to go get the night guards to even open the smaller door and let you out.

When you take one of their summer courses, which are absolutely to die for, your classrooms are on this Quad, mine was to the left of the center here along the wall coming towards us, it was a boardroom like setting, grandfather clock, heavy wood panelling, with refreshments and enough grandeur to make you wonder when the queen was arriving, quite an experience in a lot of ways, but what I'm trying to get at is you have a badge and that gets you thru the Tom Tower gateway, and they do check each one, but after a while they know you and you don't need it. It's a real hoot to be going in there, with all the crowds standing by respectfully staring like a Hollywood opening or something, particularly if you're dressed for some evening thing. It's a stupid little perk but I enjoyed it for all of ONE WEEK, so I do know what he's saying, he HAD arrived, HE really had.

I am sorry that he lost heart with his project and could not get the enthusiasm to change over to his original idea, having become interested in history. That's a shame, too bad he could not combine disciplines but as they pointed out he WAS in the English Department.

I want to watch the special again and listen to those Irish voices again, they mention Frank McCourt immediately as the documentary begins, I want to see it again. Just an aside here till I get back.

Ginny, what a beautiful photo! Thank you for sharing it and the link. Enclosed on all four sides, that just takes my breath away. I would love to hear Great Tom.

I missed the program last night. I hope it is repeated on another night.

It weighs seven tons???? Golly! And chimes 101 times at 9:05. Ginny, how did you feel hearing Great Tom's chimes? I remember Lady Diana's funeral and the tolling of the bells on tv. I will never forget the sound of those bells.

The Architecture is gorgeous. I would love to study Architecture.

Hats ...I think what I was asking... Is it possible? I think I could hear your sarcasm in the statement..."Of course, you are a teacher. You have more of a right, maybe, to try and diagnose him."

Yes, I was a teacher for fifteen years in a private school and I was a student in High School, and I just do not understand this man's thinking process. I, like many others in the discussion, am throwing things out here asking and wondering about what he is trying to say. It is a memoir, and as someone did say in a memoir you see the good the bad and the ugly. Yes, he did allude to it in this statement.

"I didn't want to give him the kind of ammunition where he could decide I was a lunatic like certain ancestors in my family."

I'm beginning to feel as confused as he seems. Regardless, if he is or could be Bi Polar, (and he would be in the company of many famous, creative, intelligent people) let me be clear... I WAS NOT diagnosing him. I do feel there is more to him than what meets the eye. And again let me say, it would not be anything to be ashamed of and is not a character flaw, so lets all be careful in how we respond to my post and not assassinate the post or the person. I have respected each post whether I agree with them or not and have not personally insulted anyone. This is an open forum with lots of interesting opinions that's what makes it so exciting.

We all have to admit his life is all over the place and he is the firs one to admit it himself. I have in all my posts used his quotes, so if I come to a place where I am questioning his thoughts and actions as he does, I don't feel in any way out of place in asking the question.

Bellamarie, there was no sarcasm intended. My writing doesn't always come off clearly. It's difficult, not like being in the same room together.

I also posted the quote about his "ancestors." So, I tended to lean closer to your side of the argument about mental illness than the other side. There are so many mental illnesses. It's hard to know exactly the name of his supposed diagnosis.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I agree when we are not face to face it is difficult to know what was intended by the response. I just did not understand why you stated.... "because I was a teacher I had more of a right to try and diagnose."

In my prior post #341 I did responsibly admit, "While I am not an expert, psychiatrist, therapist nor counselor, I have researched many illnesses and he seems to have the profile of bi-polar. There has to be an explanation for his angst and ailments. He almost seems suicidal by the end of chapter 11. Sure makes me wonder."

I have to also admit I did expect some interesting responses to my posts, since it does bring up a sensitive issue. I have been filled with wonderment throughout this book, he is a complex and perplexed person. I expected by the end of Chapter 11 more then half way through the book to see him give us more answers to his thoughts and behaviors. Instead I am still seeing he is still scrambling to figure himself out. "When he said his Uncle Pa Keating would say you are nearly forty, its time to shit or get off the pot." I too was thinking that. lololol I am a person of answers and action so I am questioning why he did not get the answers to help him make better life decisions, to help him with his angst and ailments.

Again...Thank you for clarifying your post to me. Have a great day!

Red Alert!! Apparently you can chat online today with the people who made last night's film Mixed Blessings, about the rapid phenomenal growth of Ireland, online at 11 am Eastern, check your local PBS.ORG listings, the interview which concluded the program is also online. Here is one Mixed Blessings: Wide Angle

I'm sorry, BellaMarie, I have not had a chance to respond yet to the posts, but will in just a second, I have a take on McCourt, too, coming right up, I have a different slant now on him having seen the program.

Yes@! Boy are we au courant here or what? You can chat with the Producer of the program at 11 am this morning Eastern time here:

Join co-producer Erin Chapman who will be discussing the film on washingtonpost.com, Wednesday, July 19, at 11 a.m. ET. here on the washington Post site: Online Talk today at 11 am

Ginny,I did see the show last night. We were in Limerick several years ago, before the "Celtic Tiger" arrived.It was a very different place. Some of the areas were pretty rough and unsafe to enter.Wonder if they are still there? Hope it is able to keep up its boom.

Just visiting Trinity College , being in the presence of the Book of Kells, and walking where the famous walked makes one feel humble. Imagine FM's awe when he-a poor mick from Limerick-was accepted to walk the stones.

SierraRose that's a good point about change and that the "you can be anything you want," applies to America and not many other countries, and the magic about America and the class system in other countries, good points!

One thing the documentary pointed out last night is the Limerick that Frank McCourt knew is gone. Ireland is the only English speaking country in the EU, and has a GDP 2nd in the EU, 7th in the world, it has 4 percent unemployment and a raging new economy. It has more engineers and scientists among persons aged 20-30 in the world. Ireland is HOT. It has 100,000 Polish immigrants alone, and they are welcomed because the Irish (and many interviewed are in their 70s and 80s) remember their own children leaving in the '80's, no work. But as it showed quite clearly, they cannot work if they can't speak English.

Divorce became "known" in Ireland in 1995. Women were allowed to work outside the home in 1970. Ireland joined the EU in the 70's. The documentary shows the boom of commerce, everybody is in a BMW or Mercedes or Aston Martin, and it shows the sale of the Sacred Heart Church of Limerick, a Jesuit church, to become a bar or something else, for more than 5 million dollars, and the reaction.

I was impressed with the older people, farm people, that they interviewed. One man in his 70's, a farmer, said he thought farmers all over the world were the same. He had been in debt all his life, but mind you he had managed to educate his 6 children, the oldest an attorney, the next an engineer, the next a school teacher, and so on. I did not see a lot of negativity but you wouldn't would you?

The average number of children per household in Ireland today is 2.

It's clear Frank McCourt had a horrific experience growing up, the documentary touches on the influence of the church in the past, and his two previous books may be an attempt to tell his tale, so people can know what the history WAS because what he's talking about is not there any more. It may be in other countries, but the slums he wrote about are gone in Limerick. Torn down and very pretty now. Or so they said.

I think in revealing what he did live thru and his own uncertainties that he is not asking so much for sympathy as he is trying to say this is who I am, my own experience: this is how, I see it: warts and all. (I'd still like for you to like me tho so I'll add some Irish humor and charm while rolling out the bad stuff).

Then it's true we, the readers from all backgrounds will then form our own opinions on him, have our own takes on him. Does he whine? Is he in fact somewhat depressed or bi polar? He may be. Or is he just voicing his inner thoughts which is quite unusual what most men may think but not say? Who knows? We will all form our own opinions. When we started this some people said flat outright they did not respect him much which surprised many, he has a lot of fans, so at the end of this one we'll ask that question again? I don't have a full opinion yet because I am not sure what I am reading. I can see what he's SAYING, but I am not quite sure he's serious or whether he's being humorous or sarcastic, whether he's saying what he is for shock effect, I am not sure. I really am not.

I got a lot of hope from the documentary. The head of BP and a lot of stuff in the EU has his interview for the clicking on the pbs site, things have changed and that world McCourt knew is apparently gone. Long gone. Limerick is booming and bustling and very pricey, they have somehow managed to throw off economically and socially a lot of their previous problems, it's amazing what work can do for an attitude. I think a Limerickman might be something to be proud of now, it's interesting how many of the children are moving back, they have become a nation of immigrants, not emigrants, and Dell and Google and Apple run their European offices as well as a lot of other companies, from Ireland.

more....

EllH, wasn't that something, do you see the live chat today? I like to watch those on the Washington Post, I plan to be there!

Yes I can well imagine what it must have felt like. I wonder IF there are slums there today, maybe somebody could ask, it's a rare city without ONE.

Jean and Hats, a good discussion on the roles or "hats" hahaa that people wear and the difference if there is one in masks. You hide behind a mask and wave, don't you. When you play a role do you have to wave?

But if you are shy roles, hats, and masks (I don't mean YOU Hats) are what you wear for protection.

Hahaha

Oh good point Scrawler on the conformity of the 50's, that's something I had forgotten. There used to be THE most frightening book warning against that, where everybody entered into a factory and a machine stamped them out into squares, I think it must have been a cartoon, I had nightmares on it for the longest time: the issue of conformity, very big then.

Thank you for the definition of Poltroon, Colkot, and for those memories and the "English Quota," most interesting!!!

BellaMarie, those quotes you gave might also be somebody who grew up being told they WERE unworthy, being thrust into strange and incongruous situations, hearing another voice in their head all the time, one saying snotty nosed Limerick kid and the other trying to say something different. I don't know enough about bi polar symptoms, and I very much appreciate your listing them in the next post, but I hear those voices myself. I just don't articulate them. He does.

So there may be, at least in your post 341, a possible other explanation? It may be he's trying to reconcile two worlds.

Sort of like the ancient Romans riding in triumph with the little boy behind the general on the chariot saying remember you too are dust or something like that?

This time he's carrying around his own monkey on his own back, maybe and articulating it.

Babi, here's yet another version, "Better a crust in comfort than a feast in fear." (Aesop)

Ellen, I have not read Malachy's book nor 'Tis either, so I am not sure what part alcohol is playing here, he's sort of mum on the end of the marriage, and the details, except they appeared not to get along well from what he does repeat, she seems somewhat castrating, to me.

This is a good quote, BellaMarie and I think it speaks to what we're all reacting to:

"If I knew anything about Sigmund Freud and psychoanalysis I'd be able to trace all my troubles to my miserable childhood in Ireland. That miserable childhood deprived me of self-esteem, triggered spasms of self pity, paralyzed my emotions, made me cranky, envious and disrespectful of authority, retarded my development, crippled my doings with the opposite sex, kept me from rising in the world and made me unfit, almost for human society."

I think you have it. Those symptoms you note MAY be the case but I think he's dead on here, it's his own miserable childhood which has made him an emotional problem, look at those powerful verbs there:

deprived

triggered spasms of self pity

paralyzed

made me cranky, envious and disrespectful of authority,

retarded

crippled

kept me from rising

made me unfit, almost for human society

I'm going to go out on my own limb here and say I think he's right, that is, I think he knows what his own problem is. Obviously he was seared as a child, and the problem IS he can't get over it. He's done all right in the end, he's got the Pulitzer Prize, he's kept trying, even tho he considers himself rendered unfit almost for human society, he has keep trying.

You asked earlier if he sets himself up for defeat. I have known people who felt damaged so that they really wondered if in fact they WERE normal human beings, in their secret selves, that is, even tho they look normal and act normal and may have even risen to high estate, and I would say he is trying. It may not be our conception of trying, but here I sit, I have not gone to Trinity, I have not taken over the GRE which is now required, myself, I was wondering idly yesterday if perhaps I should, just for the heck of it. Maybe somebody here on SN could give some advice in math.

He, for some reason, known only to him, is letting a lot of stuff hang out, it's not only being thought, it's not only being confided to a good friend, it's not in the confessional it's not over a drink in a bar, it's in PRINT, it's edited, and gone over and permanent: it's stuff normally pushed back into a person's subconscious if it's ever even acknowledged at all (his thoughts on Andrew are good ones), and all of this might be nothing more than blarney. Or an attempt to gain what he lacks by getting it in print. I am beginning to think that's what it is.

So in that sentence that you so wisely pointed out, I believe we see his entire rationale, that's HIM, warts and all, what he thinks, (some of it, I think it's the more acceptable of his thoughts, believe it or not) whether or not it's good or bad, the struggles he has, just to stay even. I am wondering idly if what he seems to want: to be accepted and respected (that's what I think he wants) is all that far from what anybody else wants.

Let's ask that today? Let's make that our focus question for Wednesday: What do you think Frank McCourt wants in writing this book, if he wants anything? What do you think he wants?

That's my take today, what do the rest of you think? That take may change tomorrow, depending on what you say: every little thought adds up to a total view: I like discussions where we can consider different viewpoints on everything.

7 minutes from now on this website: you can watch an interview on the New Ireland if interested!

Ginny...Thank you for the opportunity to view the interview at Wide Angle. Though it was short in context, it was interesting to hear him speak of the changes. I like how he was asked about.."The many hats." Seems that along with masks is common vocabulary in Ireland.

Mixed Blessings" looks at Ireland's dramatic transformation from a poor nation of rolling green fields, farmers' pubs, and devout Catholics to an urbanized, secularized and giddily flush society. In this program, WIDE ANGLE visits the city of Limerick. Once a slum known as "stab city" and the impoverished setting of the best-selling memoir ANGELA'S ASHES, the Limerick of today has all the main ingredients of change: foreign investment, a miniature property boom, a burgeoning services industry, childcare shortages, high levels of immigration from neighboring EU states, and shopping developments popping up like daffodils in spring.

In reading Peter's blog I can't help but feel Ireland now sounds much like the United States. The tradition and beauty seems to be fading, his response when asked his feeling about he church doors closing of "a profound sense of regret." seems to sum it up. Although he is excited about the globalization and his statement, "It's been a long night and short day." in reference to not wanting to go back to the old Ireland seems to say, it is what it is.

I'm not surprised to hear him say the people are spoiled, want the best of the best, are fat and eating out is on the rise, drugs and alcohol consumption is on the rise and unprotected sex. It makes me ask myself....when we have more and can live better, do we slack in morals and values? Do we loose respect for our self image? Do we risk the hazards of poor eating, and open ourselves up to more diseases?

While I would never suggest any country should not progress, and I am certainly happy to see Europe grow economically, I have a sadness to think they are sounding like the typical spoiled, American.

A post said that only in America do you have the possibility to attain your dreams and be anything you want to be. It seems like other countries are proving to catch up with us on that aspect.

I missed the program last night I am sure it was very informative and enlightening. Thank you for sharing.

BellaMarie, I think you'd love the program it wasn't at all like that blog, it was very positive and we can all see it, coming up, if you can do streaming, read on!

Frank McCourt's tenement is also now a shopping plaza, according to the show's Producer on the Washington Post website who just answered my question (typo and all, that was nice of her), (Excuse: I was distracted by the constant screens telling me my password did not work) hahaa (Truth: I can't type worth a nickle). It was a beautiful program and very positive, I think you all will love it if you get the chance.

Here's her interview and the good news that the entire program will be streamed probably tomorrow ON pbs, so everybody can see it.

It took 30 minutes for my question to display and by then of course somebody else had already asked about the Sacred Heart Church, she's way over her time, what a splendid person, that was a lot of fun.

To see SeniorNet's discussion of Teacher Man mentioned, a stupid typo, and her super answers (yes there are still some slums) go to Erin Chapman's Interview on the Washington Post site

and LO and BEHOLD it was no longer active, BUT

(trumpets)

The Post always puts the transcript of the online discussion up after the discussion is over and, guess what???

(more trumpets)

Ginny, yes our very own Ginny, got her question posted and answered.

Here it is:

Pauline, S.C.: Hi, loved your beautifully filmed positive program last night. We are reading Frank McCourt's Teacher Man online on SeniorNet.org and he speaks several times of being a "Limerickman." You refer to him at the beginning of the program, would you say all of the slums in Limerick are now gone? And if nobody has asked yet, what happ;ened to the Sacred Heart Church after it was sold? Beautiful presentation!

Erin Chapman: Glad you enjoyed the show. There are certainly still poor areas of Limerick, but the former site of McCourt's tenement is now a shopping plaza! Times have certainly changed.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the fate of the church is still hanging in the balance. Our last day of shooting was June 30th - the Sacred Heart's last mass - and I haven't heard any updates since then.

Ah, FAME, ah HISTORY, ah GINNY!!!!

hahahah Ah Deems, how heavy is the head that wears the Crown with Semi- Colon Rampant hahahaa Maybe I should have a crest or coat of arms made, wasn't that nice of her, tho, (was that you in Maryland?)

I could have asked a much more intelligent question, I think, in restrospect but I asked the one on the Scared Heart before the other person asked, it seems to take a pretty good while for them to show up, in my case about a half hour. Should have asked something about the title Mixed Blessing, but she covered it.

Super program, it really was, beautifully filmed. Thank you for bringing that here. hahaaa

Nope, I got there too late to post a question--the transcript was there though, and your wonderful closing question. Place of prominence, notice, at the end. Everyone will remember Your question because of reading it last.

I'm showing two after it, are they not showing them on the transcript? I'm still on the interview page refreshing and she's just said goodbye. There are two after mine? She stayed a LONG time beyond her time (I just knew that was you!)

Thank you so much Mippy for mentioning that, it's perfect for this discussion!!

I saw part of the program last night, not realising that it was a WideAngle Program. Because I still have ties in the Polish community in Chicago,I knew about the immigration of Poles to Ireland & of COURSE they must be English speaking.(How many times I've been asked if we teach our computer classes at the Senior Center in Polish(or Spanish) English only(tho some of our coaches are dual language) and have been accused of discrimination against immigrants because of that!!!!) As to slums...well, I'm sure Limerick has its share as does London..some of the places I used to know well have disintegrated into unsafe areas.. especially some of the LCC high rise flats, which in my day were considered luxurious..London backstreets are notorious in their poverty and the ills that brings. As a child I lived on the main thorofare and was not allowed to go down to the back street to play with any of the kids there. As to FMC and the suggestion that he might be bi-polar.. that rings a bell with me...no time to comment just now. Colkot

Ginny--Ah, you are right. There are two people after you so you have lost the position of last and therefore most memorable.

Anyway, I did see the final sign off with the Gaelic for A thousand blessings? I'm not sure that's the right translation.

I plan to check the show to see when there might be reruns. Sorry I missed it.

Let's ask that today? Let's make that our focus question for Wednesday: What do you think Frank McCourt wants in writing this book, if he wants anything? What do you think he wants?---

Personally I just think he wants to write and write and write and write, now that he can do so and he has the freedom and time for it to come out. And what better subject than the one he knows about---which is himself and his life?

I am the same way in that all I want to do now is paint and paint and paint whenever the muse strikes, and while I'm painting I don't care what goes on in the rest of the world. It could be falling apart all around me and I'd still be a happy camper because I was painting. I'll be contented if I die at my easel.

I do agree with BellaMarie that he may be bipolar. I'm very familiar with the condition since it runs in my family, and his ups and downs and not completing things do sound very similar to those members of my family who suffer from it. Add to that his difficult background and the difficulty of being an immigrant, and frankly, it's a wonder he got as far as he got.He kept on plugging away even though at times, I'm sure, he was in despair. My hat's off to him for that.

BellaMarie is also correct in that many of our most creative people suffer from bipolar. There have been actual studies done on that and it was discovered that bipolar appears to be substantially higher in artistic/creative families than in the rest of the population. Here are some quotes from a book that discusses the very subject:

"Creative people are usually more vulnerable than the rest of us. Since their productivity benefits us all, anything emotional that interferes with their creativity deprives us all. Creative persons seem to lack adequate means to protect themselves, not only from the outside world, but also from themselves." --- This tells me that McCourt probably would have been happier if he had not been forced to work as a teacher, but ultimately it did give him new material for his writing. So it was a good thing even if it didn't "fit".

"Writers complained that excessive sociability was a problem. They needed substantial blocks of time and isolation from human contact to accomplish their work." ---- As a teacher and married man he probably never had those blocks of time, especially if he had a wife who was not creative or who understood his need. I'm so happy that he has the blocks of time now.

"One reason that the link between genius and insanity persists in the mind is that creative people do behave in ways that are out of the ordinary." ---- Yup, they see the world differently, they don't abide by social conventions, and they are often rebellious and disturbing to the status quo. McCourt had to put a lid on his real self all those years he was teaching. Thus his feeling that he was wearing a mask.

"The pattern of most artisist's lives falls out of cycle with that or ordinary people, since artists often continue to be productive without considering the usual human needs or time schedules, and many artistic geniuses have no skill in dealing with the outside world, other than through their creative media." ---- Again, I've found that to be true. When the creative muse strikes, the only way I can describe it is that it is sort of like a dream state, and the least little thing disrupting that dream state (like a phone ringing or someone asking you a question) disrupts that creative state and it slips through your fingers like a dream when you awaken. It's very frustrating. So artistic people HAVE TO live by their own schedules, even if they work for 36 hours straight and sleep when others are awake. That's just how it is. McCourt probably finally has the luxury to do that, and when that writing muse strikes, he can be more ready to do what he needs to do than when he was teaching.

. . . I think there are degrees of bipolar, and medication should be used only in those instances when it is extreme and the person becomes suicidal. Medication takes the "edge" off creativity and makes bipolar people like the rest, and we would lose a whole lot of creative minds if we medicated them.

So I am ambivalent about medication use. Personally I have found I prefer the ups and downs and creative thinking going on all the time than to be medicated and feel like everyone else. But then, my life is not chaotic and the bipolar me is contained within acceptable social boundaries. In other words, it is mild.

In fact, I tend to use my artist role often when I need to be alone and don't want to be drawn into social responsibilities. I just say. "Well, you know how odd we artists are." That's the end of it because people actually do make allowances for it without holding grudges if you are up-front about it. It works for me and gives me lots of alone time to pursue my passion without making any enemies.

Once more, I agree with Sierrarose. FM is a writer with stories to tell and the ability to tell them; so we read. Hopefully, with our reading will come some self-reflection,as well as helping us understand circumstances other than our own back-yard. I identify with many of the feelings FM had about himself without the unfortunate conditions of his childhood. Can't imagine what I'd be if I had that baggage! I don't think he's doing anything other than being himself and telling us how it was with him.Overall, he blames no one but himself-takes full responsibility for "low marks" as well as small self-congratulations for the "high marks". I'd like to be at the dinner Ella Gibbons is inviting him to.

I know a lot about bi polar disorder and it has been established there is a genetic link. The link in our family came from an Irish Great grandmother and the disease has not yet missed a generation. It has become somewhat watered down with the generations but its still presents itself in our extended family. In one family there are three sufferers and there were four when their mother was alive. Its a disease that may not present if the family life is stable and loving and that the carrier of the gene is not subject to constant life stresses. It is a horrid disease and the sufferers in our family have been intelligent and extremely creative. I would not wish this disease on my worst enemy. I am not qualified to say whether McCourt is a sufferer but if he had the genes his stressful and deprived childhood would be a major trigger.

While Bi polar sufferers do not want to take medication normally their behaviour can destroy their loved ones. Its hard to live with a bi polar sufferer. Its my opinion that each has a choice about medication but if they choose not to be medicated they should live alone and not inflict their unpredictable mood swings etc on others.

Carolyn

I like to read FM's books. I like his story telling. I try to read anything on Ireland I can get my hands on. My favorite book is "How the Irish Save Civilization" by Thomas Cahill.

It is not important to me to consider if FM may be bipolar or carry a genetic disposition to mental illness. I listen to CDs of the Irish Tenors in my car and the songs of Ireland tell me the history of Ireland better than anything else.

To me FM books tell how he grew up and what happened to him along the way to where he is today. I cry when I read of the things that happened to him because the same things happen to every child who lives in poverty and tries to survive. It is important for me to read his books because it tells me of the Ireland of my Irish grandmother.

The Ireland of today, which Ireland? Northern Ireland or Ireland? When most of us think of Ireland we do not think of the divided Ireland we just think of Ireland as one place when it is not. They are still fighting a war there between the Protestant and the Catholic and if want a job you are not going to get one if you are in the wrong section of the country and that is the way it was in FM's time. There may not be the violence of his time but there is still the purest code throughout the land. There are still slums, there is still poverty, and there is still streets where it is not safe to walk if you are the wrong religion.

My long time SN friend still hates the British and will fight to the death if they mess with his part of Ireland.

You all are very correct and have great insight to the disorder from personal experience as my self. My daughter is Bi Polar, my mother was Bi Polar and not that nationality has anything whatsoever to do with the gene, I am Irish/ Italian and the Bi Polar comes from the Irish maternal side of my family.

Kiwi... you are correct in stating, "Its a disease that may not present if the family life is stable and loving and that the carrier of the gene is not subject to constant life stresses."

While researching this disorder when my daughter was diagnosed with it 10 years ago at the age of 25 (which is in the age frame of when it usually manifests), her psychiatrist did tell me that it never manifested earlier because she had a stable life. Although as we tracked her childhood and teenage years we could truly see the symptoms were there. After her marrying, moving away from our family, having to deal with much emotional stress and feeling isolated, it reared its ugly head. If un-treated it can also bring about other mental disorders. Some people as SierraroseCA stated,.. can go through life without the medication." My daughter Could not function at all without her medicine.

I have been an active role in her care and her lifeline of support and while it can effect the loved ones close with them, I can't imagine not being there for her. She is incapable of working since diagnosed, she is still married and is now living in Florida after spending two years here with me through a separation. We are in contact almost on a daily basis. It is a very sad disorder but many people are able to function and go on with their life with it. My favorite soap star Maurice Bernard of General Hospital is open with his treatments for Bi Polar and he is now playing a part on the show of being diagnosed with it.

Yes, FM shows all the symptoms of the disorder whether he has it or not. I can only imagine his frustration of living in a world of rules and restrictions. I can say, I am having compassion for FM where I had disrespect earlier.

I also agree he just wanted to write and write and write. Unfortunately he was not able to for so many years, and I can now see how his life had to be like trying to fit a square peg into a circle while he taught, that is how my daughter describes living in this world is for her. God Bless her and FM.

sierraroseCA...you are so fortunate you are able to "contain it in acceptable social boundaries." I would love to see your paintings. If you paint any where near with the same passion as you write, I can only imagine the beauty they hold.

I also feel, to not be accepted by family, friends, peers, and society is the saddest thing for any one to deal with and not give up on themselves. Yes, FM never gave up on his dream to write, and he has succeeded with his three books. Good for him! And good for US, because we got to read this interesting book and meet each other and discuss all these fascinating topics.

"If I knew anything about Sigmund Freud and psychoanalysis I'd be able to trace all my troubles to my miserable childhood in Ireland. That miserable childhood deprived me of self-esteem, triggered spasams of self pity, paralyzed my emotions, made me cranky, envious and disrespectful of authority, retarded my development, crippled my doings with the opposite sex, kept me from rising in the world and made me unfit, almost for human society."

I don't see anything in this paragraph except perhaps a good pice of writing. If he really felt bad about his "miserable childhood" I doubt that he could find the words to describe how he felt about it. If it was truly a shame for him he wouldn't express it in such flowing words. No! I think he just wants to use his experiences not to heal himself, but rather in order to make him seem similar to the great writers of the time like James Joyce or William Faulkner who used what they knew to create Fictional characters with the same attributes. Here FM uses his own life as if he were a fictional character. To me if he used an experience he should be able to show cause and affect - not just whine about it.

Ginny asked..."Let's ask that today? Let's make that our focus question for Wednesday: What do you think Frank McCourt wants in writing this book, if he wants anything? What do you think he wants?"

When I really think about what FM wants in writing this book the first thing that comes to mind is...to succeed in selling a book to entertain readers. I think he also wants some closure on his childhood. I think in expressing the good the bad and the ugly he is able to face the demons,talk about them and exorcise them. I think he wants to show he was able to overcome all the things that seemed to be obstacles in his life and was able to accomplish his dream to write.

I also think Frank Mccourt wanted to share his childhood, his thoughts, behaviors, travels, his views on the Catholic church, his life as a Limerickman, and his life in Ireland. I think he also wants the recognition for his successes. Like he said in his Prologue..."There should be a medal for people who survive miserable childhoods and become teachers, and I should be the first in line for the medal and whatever bars might be appended for ensuing miseries."

He made this his memoir, he wanted to share his life with the readers. And....he possibly wanted a book good enough to be turned into a movie like Angela's Ashes.

At last! In the first pages of Ch. 12, Frank McCourt is finally coming to terms with himself. Having a daughter has done something for him, and teaching at Stuyvesant is doing something for him. I had begun to despair.

For so long he has constantly wished he was like someone else. Confident, cool, confident, witty, charming, confident, bright...well, you get the idea. But no. In his own mind, Frank McCourt was still "little snotty-nosed Frankie from the lanes of Limerick, trying to rise above his station".

What did Margaret McCourt give him, do you think? An identity he could be proud of....Maggie's dad? And Stuyvesant, giving him the gift of respect?

Early days, yet, in Ch. 12. I do hope this new self-integration holds.

Babi

Babi you are so right, we now move INTO "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" in Chapter 12: Coming Alive Room 205, and we might want to ask ourselves what factors have made the difference? Since I am going out of town early in the morning I've put up some thoughts for Chapter 12 or you can pose your own questions so we can get started early tomorrow.

I regret that somehow my Copy utility has lost quite a large post I had made in response to everybody here and I unfortunately do not have time to write it again, so will just thank you SierraRose, Colkot, Delphine, BellaMarie, EllH (I would sit at Ella's table, if invited, any day!) Carolyn, Scrawler, and Hats (it was like hearing 400 years of history to hear that bell!), wonderful discussion on so many different points and at least three different viewpoints, all fabulous, on the quote above, great job!

I think those are excellent questions, Babi, and will include them in the new heading now featuring thoughts on Chapter 12. I am itching to talk about one of the characters in this section but will wait to see which one you all choose!

OR maybe you'd like to answer Babi's two or pose your own! The floor is now open to hear your thoughts on Chapter 12!

Why do most people use the initials FM.?

The fellow's name is Frank McCourt.. so to me his initials are FMC.

I was McAllister before I was married.. so my initials were CMA

It would be different if he were Mccourt..but he's not.

Forgot to tell you, my older son interviewed him for his newspaper before he got to be so famous...

And oh yes, the inhabitants of the part of Belfast where my grandmother moved to from Lisburn looked out from their lace curtains and grumbled...There goes widow McAllister's granddaughter....no better than she should be she"s one of them thar Caaathlics COLKOT

My ancestors were Protestant Catholics. The reason my gran came to NZ was that she fell in love with a Catholic boy and they were both forbidden to marry. They would not dare disobey their parents and become shunned from their close families so my gran decided to emigrate to NZ. She said the last she saw of her love was the sight of him running alongside the train as it left Glasgow station. Both of them had tears running down their faces. She never forgot her William and spoke about him on her death bed. She had a stable marriage with my grandfather who was much older but it never was a love affair. She was the staunch ally of my second cousin who eventually married a Catholic girl. My great grandfather was an Orangeman so you can see how my gran could never have married out of her faith.

carolyn

. . . . reminded me of one of the things I missed soooooooo much when we came to America. Every little town had a church in the middle of it, and the bells announced the time of day every half hour, and they rang cheerfully when there was a wedding or a baptism and rang sadly when there was a funeral. So no matter where you were in town, you could tell what was going on by the sound of the bells. And of course, they rang on Sunday to announce the time to go to church.

In those days the bells were still rung by a bona fide bell ringer, and when I became friends with him he let me ring the bells. Being a skinny little kid though, the rope just lifted me way up there and he had to rescue me. Hahahahahah!

I still love the sound of bells, not those over a loudspeaker that some churches play these days, but the REAL bells that had unique tones depending on who the bell maker was and the metal that was used.

I loved the church bells in the city when I was a child. I especially loved the joyous peals on Christmas day and as the bride and groom came out of the church after their wedding ceremony. Nothing like it! You hardly ever hear church bells these days.

carolyn

as they look through the lace curtains, where you said: "There goes widow McAllister's granddaughter....no better than she should be she"s one of them thar Caaathlics."

And I can picture Carolyn's story of her grandmother's love running along the train. So sad.

But the division between Protestants and Catholics was, and probably still is profound. In Germany where I was, most of Northern Germany was Protestant, and Southern Germany was Catholic, and the towns had one or the other majority, and if you happened to be the minority religion in a town you were given a really rough time of it.

The divison was so deep that they even had separate cemeteries, and when an aunt of mine died (she was a Catholic) she was buried in the Catholic cemetery. My uncle (who was Protestant) requested to be buried beside her, but when the time came his children tried and tried, but there was simply no way the local priest would bury him beside his wife. It was awful, and that was in a small town only about 20 or so years ago.

Some of those divisions were as a result of the feudal system, because the large landholders, before Germany even became a country, had many serfs (and that was still the case in outlying country areas even right up to WWII) and the serfs had no choice about religion. They were whatever religion the local landowner was, since he had total control over them and they sort of "belonged" to him.

Those divisions are difficult for Americans to understand also. We really do have a melting pot here and it is a wonderful human freedom experiment. It is far from perfect, but it's a thousand times better than what I've observed in most other parts of the world.

The one thing about NZ is that interfaith marriages are very common. My daughter is married to a Catholic. My grands get to choose when they are old enough whether they want to be Baptist or Catholic. Interfaith councils are very active and include the Jewish and Muslim communities. I am glad we do not have religious bigotry here.

carolyn

. . . about a Greek friend of mine and what the tradition was in her village. Virginity was a VERY important part of a girl's reputation, and so on the wedding night in her particular village, after the festivities were over, the mother of the bride gave her a white lace handkerchief before she and the groom had their wedding night, and that handkerchief was passed from hand to hand the next morning to make sure there was virginal blood on it. It was exclaimed over by every woman in town, with guesswork on their part as to how long it would be before the bride was pregnant and whether it would be a boy or a girl, and how many children they would have----all from whatever blood stain was on there.

Of course, my friend never told them that the groom cut himself and put the blood on the handkerchief so she could have a good private laugh when she subsequently heard all the gossip about her wedding night. She also did not want to give her family a bad reputation by not cooperating, so she just went along with the plan.

She and her husband also ended up in America because it was all too restrictive and clannish for their tastes.

Sorry about the distraction, but I just thought it would give some insight in just how claustrophobic some societies can be. I'm sure in McCourt's time there was the same sort of claustrophobic atmosphere, just in different ways.

Roger Goodman sounds like the kind of supervisor every teacher would love to have. He admires and respects the talents of his staff. They are permitted to teach whatever they like. He doesn't hover and criticize. He is friendly and not at all supercilious. No wonder McCourt opened up in this atmosphere.

McCourt has given the world a new word in his description of the Irish. "The old Irish tradition of begrudgery." I'm thinking now of the bright, loving picture of the Irish painted by Andrew Greeley in his novels. Especially re. the Irish women he so greatly admires. Different views, yet there is truth in both of them.

I'm not a teacher, but the description of the life of a high school teacher sounds quite realistic to me. The never-ending drudgery of reading and grading student papers is a complaint of long standing. Nowadays, the teachers generally have one free period for doing paper work, and the schools have teachers work days throughout the years. This seems a much fairer and more reasonable approach to the problem than expecting teachers to work days, evenings and weekends to get their jobs done.

Babi

Time for Teacher Man to go back to the Library. I'm sorry, because I won't have it available to pick up now and then and smile;

"Pride, Greed, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, Sloth. If you don't know them, how can you enjoy yourselves?"

How can you not smile at that?

"I don't know what I believe except that I wasn't put on this earth to be Catholic or Irish or vegetarian or anything. That's all I know, Sylvia."
I love the man! He would be very welcome in my home anytime, even though I would be apprehensive and jittery; what is he thinking of me, my home, my beliefs.

I have cotton pajamas, I settle in a comfortable chair and read the paper, watch a little TV, read more; open the refrigerator to see what I can eat, I'm warm in the winter, cool in the summer, call my daughter on the phone often, get in my car, in my garage, go to a grocery store so that I can put the good things of life in the pantry, refrigerator.

What do I deserve? What do I believe, don't ask me Frank McCourt.

Most days the only religion I have is to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.

I am happy to see he seems to have found a place that allows him to teach in his own style at Stuyvesant High School. When Roger Goodman compliments him he expresses, "he was embarrassed by this praise." I think Frank has finally found someone and some place that may show him the respect he has been waiting for.

I'm just not sure why, as soon as he finds it he is already thinking of leaving in two years.... Is he only thinking to himself when he says, " I wanted to be doing something adult and significant, going to meetings, dictating to my secretary, sitting with glamorous people at long mahogany board room tables, flying to conventions, unwinding in trendy bars, sliding into bed with luscious women, entertaining them before and after with witty pillow talk, commuting to Connecticut."

Is this still the man not satisfied, once he gets what he has always wanted???

I like the lightheartedness he shows when Maggie is born. I can relate to his feelings, "My fantasies faded before her sweet reality and I began to feel at home in the world." Anyone who has been a parent, can know at that moment of birth, and the days following what a joy and peace fulness that comes into you. So many things seem so insignificant, once you hold that little human being who must rely on YOU for its nourishment, nurturing and safety. Oh now I can picture him holding Maggie and "Irish Eyes Are Smiling."

Can he stay in the moment and just cherish the love, the joy and the respect he is feeling, with a new baby, and a new teaching job at an elite school, with the chance to finally feel free?

"First time I felt free in the classroom, I could teach whatever I liked."

How did you all feel about how Frank handled Janice's paper? Did he make the best choice, in not doing anything of reporting it or trying to get some form of counsel for her? What would you do if put in a situation like this?

In my years of teaching I was in this situation a few times. A have attended many workshops throughout my years on signs of child abuse in the home. At every workshop, I remember attending, we as teachers were told it is our legal responsibility to report any suspect abuse. I am happy to say, there were a few children I feel I helped save from the hand of emotional, physical or sexual abuse in their home, due to knowing the signs and reporting to the principal, school nurse and school counselor. I can not count the number of instances I have come across in my life, where there were children being abused by one parent without the other knowing, or they did know and turned a blind eye. I was left with a sadness after reading the part of Janice.

pg. 196 His marriage collapsed at forty-nine, Maggie is eight. I don't think this comes as a surprise to any of us. There were the signs throughout the pages, we just did not know when it would happen. Alberta showed earlier how she felt he needed the therapy to help himself and the marriage. She may not have come over to us as a gentle, compassionate, loving person although he did not go into her personality or their problems much, but I can not imagine what it would have been like to live with someone like Frank. I seriously think you can not give lasting love to anyone until you learn to love yourself.

Ella: You sound like you are enjoying life. Wonderful!

Of all the people mentioned in this book, I like Roger Goodman the best. I like the way McCourt described him: "Some afternoons Roger came to the Gas House to drink with us. He had no affectations, always cheerful always encouraging, a supervisor you could feel comfortable with. He put on no airs, no intellectual pretensions, and mocked bureaucratic gobbledygook. I don't think he could have uttered "pedagogical strategizing" without chuckling."

He almost sounds like he was to good to be true.

"He trusted me. He seemed to think I could teach on any of the four levels of high school: freshman, sophomore, junior, senior. He even asked what I'd like to teach and took me to the room where books were organized by grade."

"Take whatever you want, said Roger, and if there's anything else you'd like we can order it. Take your time. Think about it tonight. Let's go to the Gas House for lunch."

Although he seems like the ideal supervisor, I can't help but wonder how the administrators above him thought about his "ways and means." It almost seems like what Roger really wanted was to be just one of the teachers and mingle with them at the "Gas House."

But as much as I think I would have liked to work with him, I can't help but wonder why he had "three-martini days". Was he underneath it all no different than Frank McCourt. Frank wanted to write and have a bestsellers, but what did Roger really want to do?

I wish each one of you could visit Brooke and Graces state school. Its not in a high income area its in a mixed area. Part of the school zone is in a very blue collar area and part in a Middle class area. The Principal is amazing. He knows every kid ( all 600 odd of them). He has refused to take mediocre teachers on to his staff. Every teacher he has hired has to have one interest outside of teaching. He has a teacher who is an artist, one who is an opera singer and so on. These teachers share their outside expertise with the children.

Each child is observed carefully and their talents are discovered. In fact the school motto is "Discover your talents" The school then gives extra emphasis to the talent. The school participates in International Competitions for various talents. Unfortunately there is no International Art Competition for children under 11 years. Brookes teacher ( who is an artist) says she will definately be entering when she is 11. There is emphasis on art subjects as well as Academic subjects. The school grounds are beautiful. Parents have donated time and money to make it so.

Discipline is creative. There is a red seat in the playground. Children who misbehave at play have to go and sit on the red seat. Rowdiness in the classroom results in a 10 min power walk round the grounds for the whole class. ( in silence)

Compassion abounds also. A sobbing new entrant will be taken to the Principal. It is not uncommon to see a tiny child sprawled on the carpet in the Principals office doing a jigsaw or crayoning until they feel better. The kids just love him.

I have been to a two hour prize giving ceremony at the school where the children were so well behaved I could not believe it. Praise is lavish. After the ceremony the Principal stood up and told the children how proud he was of their behaviour.

Needless to say there is an out of zone waiting list for this school. Affluent parents have left other zones and bought into this school zone often downgrading their housing in the process.

Every open day at that school has been a joy to me. The kids are just wonderful and I place this squarely as a result of the culture the Principal has developed in this state funded school. State schools need not be inferior.

Carolyn

I do recall how the mood just lit up when McCourt began teaching at Stuyvesant. It seems he had finally found a niche. Goodman was also a great boss. They are few and far between, but I had a boss like that once who was WONDERFUL, trusted employees, gave a lot of praise and allowed them to make decisions without micro-managing everything, and also allowed for mistakes without punishment. She was a tiny African-American lady with a wonderful attitude and the best boss I had in my 40+ years of work.

I was so relieved for McCourt that he had finally found a "home".

Yes I think we're all relieved to find him coming out into the sunshine, having found his niche at last. And as you've said, these are quite different students. I'm still puzzling over the difference in parts I and II. I can see the difference in III, but I'm still trying to figure out why II is different, any ideas, anybody?

I had a wonderful lunch yesterday with one of our number here, Edith Anne, also of the Classics Project in her vacation here in SC and we discussed, among other fascinating topics, U NO HU, FM himself!

(Colkot, I don't know why others are spelling his name FM, but mine is laziness and copy catting. Since everybody else is doing it, and I am such an execrable typist, I was finding that every time I typed his name Word screamed ERROR!! ERROR! And I got tired of correcting it, much easier. I do know Mc names, my mother was a McNairy, and I mean no disrespect, we know his name, it's a brevity thing.)

But yesterday Edith Anne and I talked BOOKS, such a wonderful conversation, and I talked some with her husband Donald as well and now would be a good time for all of the men in this discussion to give their thoughts, as well. It's a man's view on some of this I'd really like to hear, too. Hopefully they can join us before the colors fade.

Yes, Ella how hilarious was that? I believe you've picked out two of the most memorable quotes in the book, very striking for the one and hilarious for the other, Gotta love him.

Carolyn, you are a wonderful advocate for Brooke's school and it does sound wonderful.

I think after seeing the documentary I have in mind what I'd like to see him do next and I'd like to make that a question also. Some of you have mentioned you'd like to see him write about retirement, let's put that as the final question today as we leave Chapter 12, tomorrow we begin our last week with Teacher Man, I think we've all learned one thing anyway, so in that aspect he IS a good teacher, (but you learn from every book) but anyway, let's ask what you'd like to see him do next.

I'd like to see, after seeing that documentary, him return to Ireland and Limerick in 2006 and I'd like to see the effect on him. The documentary profiles the country now and the difference in the hold of the Catholic church on Ireland, it contrasts it. The Jesuit Church, the Scared Heart, is being sold in Limerick to a developer when the show opens). I'd like to see his reactions and to have him write about them. I have a feeling it would be very healing all around. Has he returned, do you know?

More…

. . . two subjects: (1) aging and retirement, and (2) How the U.S.A. differs from Ireland and if it expanded his world vision.

I'd also love to read some of the funny stories he, Malachy and their barroom cronies had to tell. When you are in Ireland the Irish people have a way with words and wit that are part of their daily living. We find them very funny, but to them it is just a part of daily conversation.

I would like to see Frank McCourt write about his life, but with an emphasis on cause and effect. If he had a miserable "childhood" how did that effect and give examples of how he overcame such a problem or if he wanted to write tragedy to show the negative effect it might have had with examples. I also see him writing a historical novel especially in his own time frame. He is a wonderful storyteller and I would hate to have him focus on the negative parts of life.

I would love to really get a true feeling of his overcoming his childhood. I have had so many questions go through my mind as I read Teacher Man. I have not read Angela's Ashes nor seen the movie and have not read Tis, but I sense he left the same effect with his readers. Wonderment.

Scrawler....I like your idea of what to write about. I too would welcome a book with the emphasis on cause and effect.

In Teacher Man he alludes to so many things and leaves me with only more questions unanswered, which possibly is what a memoir is. I would love to have him write a autobiography, so I can have a clear truthful picture of his feelings, his life in Limerick and the United States, his thought about why he seemed so unfilled for so long and if he sought any counseling to help him through his lack of self worth.

It would be neat if he did visit Lemirick in 2006, as Ginny suggested, and then write about his feelings of the changes.

I am not as interested as some about the history, heritage, land, churches, economical stand point, etc., because history has never interested me, but I am interested in "him" and his thoughts about the changes.

If I had never stumbled upon SeniorNet and began this discussion group, I know I would have never decided on my own to choose to read this book. I am glad I did experience this, and he certainly peaked my interest on so many levels.

Carolyn, I loved your story of the principal with a "tiny child sprawled on the carpet" amusing itself until he/she felt better. What a wonderful man to have for a school principal. Your district is indeed fortunate.

We have heard so much about the harshness of the nuns in school, and esp. in Ireland. I thought I would point out that just because a girl entered the nunnery it didn't necessarily mean she had a vocation. In poor families of that era, a daughter with no marriage prospects had very few options open. She could go into service for whatever well-off families lived in the area. If there was a factory, she might find work there. Higher education was out of the question. Becoming a nun would at least provide security, and give her some kind of work. It would also be one less mouth to feed at home, and having a son or daughter devoted to God was a thing to be proud of.

I say all this to point out that many a nun was not suited to the life, and many were frustrated and bitter...and taking it out on the kids.

I was interested by McCourt's statement that Adolescents don't always want to be set afloat on seas of speculation and uncertainty." Well, yeah, I guess they have enough uncertainty in their lives at that age. He goes on to explain that they are looking ahead to the exams they will have to take, and they want answers they can write down and pass the test. Looking back from the viewpoint of many years, tho', I can see the value of his insistent: What do you think? Constantly, he prodded them to think their own thoughts, question assumptions. And that, to me, is a great teacher.

Babi

I wonder if the Irish are like the Scots. Right up to probably the sixties of last century to be a teacher was a prize profession to the Scots. To be a teacher was to be respected and held in awe by the community. Did Frank go into teaching for this reason. To give himself a sense of worth?

Carolyn

I think you're right, Carolyn. Teachers were respected, even if they were downright brutal. McCourt reveals more than once his need for respect, and it has to be at least one major motive in his becoming a teacher. Then, alas, poor man,...he moves to New York! 50's teenagers with an attitude, and no respect at all, at all!

Babi

My sister in law went through years of becoming a Nun, and believe me the horror stories she tells me about what she was put through, I am surprised she has any sanity left. She decided it was not for her.

She has a lifetime worth of scars from the things they were made to do. I can say she shed light as to why many Nuns had so much frustration and bitterness.

Babi post #397 "I say all this to point out that many a nun was not suited to the life, and many were frustrated and bitter...and taking it out on the kids."

Babi you are so right!

This is the BEST discussion. I have struggled all day to get my new computer up, running, and functional, I have a feeling you are all better than I am at this, but set's MADDENING, now Office XP won't load, it just won't load. IT WILL NOT LOAD!

And of course I'm typing THIS on a laptop because the Norton won't download the 127,000 new things that are not on the CD. Snap snarl.

Wouldn't you KILL to hear FM on computers?

I would like for FM to come here and fix my computer@@ hahahahaa

This discussion has been one of the most wide ranging I can ever remember, and tomorrow we'll move to the last segment, Chapters 13-end, and I hope to hear from everybody in the last days.

Stay tuned for When Irish Eyes are Smiling in the morning!

Well Ginny. I finally got my book, too late to share posts with all of you. BUT, I have been listening reading all posts which I have enjoyed tremendously.

And now, hopefully, I shall enjoy this book just as much as I did enjoy FM other books.

Amparo

A Catholic high school was located directly across the street from the public high school that I attended. So of course I had some good friends who attended St. Bernard's. They all had horror stories such as how the nuns whacked their fingers if they weren't paying attention - that type of thing.

Sierrarose: I know what you mean about having a really good boss. I had one, too, when I left teaching and started working for a large insurance company. She was just the best boss - intelligent, kind, tough, respected, respectful of her staff, not a hoverer, a role model, a bit of a rebel, someone who gave her staff credit for jobs well done, not taking the credit herself. Her greatest quality was that she had the highest expectations of her staff, assumed the best, unless they proved to her that they couldn't perform. Then watch out.

I found out I was in for something good - we had had to work overtime on a big project for quite awhile and people were burned out. My boss invited us into an office and shut the door one afternoon. She brought out a bottle of wine and some glasses. She had us toast to each other for the job we had done. We knew she would have been in big trouble if anyone had found out about the wine. But her daring was like a big thank you. And it was fun and really made us feel like a team in it together!

I remember one time she was smoking a cigarette at work. This was back in the day when you could smoke at work. But her boss hated his staff to smoke and they avoided it when he was around. Suddenly, her boss walked up. My boss stuffed her lit cigarette in her drawer and closed it. She and her boss talked for awhile. There was a stream of smoke making its way up out of her drawer. Her boss apparently didn't notice anything amiss and went on his way. We all laughed afterward. We were worried that paper in the drawer had caught on fire, but it hadn't. It's kind of fun to have a rebel for your boss, as long as good things happen as a result.

Did anyone see the film Dancing At Lughnasa? It is a wonderful movie about a family of sisters (one brother) in Ireland in the 1930's. They were very poor. Meryl Streep played the eldest girl and she was a teacher. She was the main support of the family. She was a total bitch - just awful - to her sisters and to the kids in class. The students complained about her and she finally lost her job as a result.

Marni I saw that film. Wasn't the schooteacher the bitter one of the girls. In some ways I sympathised with her the others were a tad ditzy.

Carolyn

First off I have contacted one of Frank McCourt's students from Stuyvesant High School. He had FM in his senior year. He wrote an article in the New York Times on Frank and has also wrote a blog on a web site after reading Teacher Man. His name is Michael and he is a lawyer living in New York. He has been emailing me back and forth and I have asked him to write a short review for our group for the conclusion of the book. I hope to share it with you all.

Next I am happy to say.... I just finished watching the movie, Angela's Ashes. I am still processing my thoughts on the movie and the things he talks about in Teacher Man. I suppose Tis is suppose to be the bridge from Angela's Ashes to Teacher Man so I feel I need to check that out of the library, when I return Teacher Man next week. So I am reserving the right to write (lol did you like that) until I have given the movie a night's sleep, to ponder my thoughts.

Any way...Ginny I am so sorry for your troubles with your computer. Being a technology coordinator and computer instructor for fifteen years I wish I could be there to help you. It is most frustrating to want to use these computers only to find they won't do what we want them to do. My son just purchased a Dell and called me over to troubleshoot his printer......He can write programs for one of the leading car companies to save them billions of dollars a year, but needed Mom to come fix his computer problems....lololol Good luck I hope you get up and running. I have missed your lengthy posts and praise. We are a vessel off course with out you and all your astounding questions.

Oh wow, lots of exciting stuff in here today! Well done, BellaMarie, I was just thinking idly yesterday what a LOT of different experiences and how much we've learned in this discussion, and the documentary and all the extra fabulous stuff and the wonderful memoirs and memories of teaching experiences you've all shared, the In-Service result, very proud of that, and here you have contacted a former student! We'll really look forward to hearing whatever he says!

No still here on the laptop, snarl snap, I wish you were here too, and I was so proud of myself, snarl snap. At least I am learning how to type on a laptop, so it's not all bad. hahahaa

Amparo! Can you read Chapter 13 and the end now so you can discuss them with us or would you rather not? I am looking forward to meeting you in DC in October at SeniorNet's 20th Anniversary Conference!! We who were in this discussion can discuss it THEN, too! I hope as many of you who can will try to come, there is an alternate cheaper hotel right on the Mall where our Books stay and some of our group are staying, too. I hope to meet as many of our Books folks as I can, but more on that later!

More on your super posts, in a second, how rich this discussion is, but I have to share this.... hahaha here is an experience to start out our day, I felt that since Chapter 13 was such a happy beginning to the positive end of the book, so charming, that I would begin with the famous song When Irish Eyes are Smiling.

Boy did I learn something.

I bet you could not sing it!

You, I bet can sing the chorus, and you, I bet, might think of the words of the chorus, but there's a lot more!!

Check this out!!!!

Background: The lyrics to When Irish Eyes Are Smiling were written by Chauncey Olcott and George Graff, Jr. and set to the music of Enerst Ball for Olcott's production of The Isle O' Dreams. The music was published in 1912. Chauncey Olcott was born in Buffalo, New York. He produced several shows about Ireland for the New York stage. His other hits included My Wild Irish Rose. Ernest Ball was also born in America, but was devoted to Ireland.

Here are the lyrics:

When Irish Eyes Are Smiling

words and music Chauncey Olcott & George Graff, Jr.

There's a tear in your eye, And I'm wondering why,
For it never should be there at all.
With such pow'r in your smile, Sure a stone you'd beguile,
So there's never a teardrop should fall.
When your sweet lilting laughter's Like some fairy song,
And your eyes twinkle bright as can be;
You should laugh all the while And all other times smile,
And now, smile a smile for me.

When Irish eyes are smiling,
Sure, 'tis like the morn in Spring.
In the lilt of Irish laughter
You can hear the angels sing.

When Irish hearts are happy,
All the world seems bright and gay.
And when Irish eyes are smiling,
Sure, they steal your heart away.

For your smile is a part Of the love in your heart,
And it makes even sunshine more bright.
Like the linnet's sweet song, Crooning all the day long,
Comes your laughter and light.
For the springtime of life Is the sweetest of all
There is ne'er a real care or regret;
And while springtime is ours Throughout all of youth's hours,
Let us smile each chance we get.

The above is from this website: When Irish Eyes Are Smiling . The first MIDI (click to hear the song) is of the chorus only. The second is the entire song.

I am willing to bet you a shamrock that not one of us can sing the entire song!

So with that ringing somewhat in our ears, let's get right to Chapter 13 today and I'll be back with some comments on your own wonderful posts, am about to be blown offline again this morning, pop up storms.

Chapter 13: When Irish Eyes are Smiling:

1. In how many ways is McCourt a different man at Stuyvesant? Let's make a list! ----What do you think accounts for this difference? The writing seems to take off joyfully, what's the difference?

2. "I must congratulate myself, in passing, for never having lost the ability to examine my conscience, never having lost the gift of finding myself wanting and defective. Why fear the criticism of others when you, yourself, are first out of the critical gate?" (page 211).

This might serve as an apologia for the entire book. This trait even shows up in his glory days at Stuyvesant. What's your conception of the man as revealed here in Chapter 13? Have you changed your mind from the earlier chapters? If you felt negatively about him in the earlier chapters, name one good thing about him now. If you felt positively about him in the earlier chapters as a man, can you FIND a negative thing about him now? Why or why not? What is it?

3. "They flocked to my classes. The room was packed. They sat on windowsills. One teacher, Pam Sheldon, said, Why don't they just let him teach in Yankee Stadium, that's how popular I was." (page 199). In Chapter 13 we get both barrels of how charming and charismatic McCourt can be, and he is extremely charming.

Mc Court is creatively teaching Creative Writing in Chapter 13. Choose one of the episodes he relates in Chapter 13 which struck you as particularly innovative and explain why. Would you have enjoyed being in his classes? What would you have learned from the lunch on the lawn or the cookbooks in class episodes?

4. "What are schools for, anyway?" (page 211). ----How would YOU answer him? What other questions or issues would you like to bring up as you sing When Irish Eyes are Smiling? Hahaha Watch that site, tho. I downloaded that at 4 am and could not turn it off till it finished, causing my husband and the dog no end of irritated attention haahahaaaaaaaaaa

OH………..when Irish eyes are smiling… (it sure is different, isn't it?) hahahaa

"Adolescents don't always want to be set afloat on seas of speculation and uncertainty. They don't like it when Mr. McCourt says, Why was Hamlet mean to his mother, or why didn't he kill the king when he had the chance? It's all right to spend the rest of the period going round and round discussing this, but you'd like to know the answer before the bell rings..."

I don't know about the students that he taught, but as far as myself and my group of friends were concerned we would have welcomed "speculation and uncertainty." We devoured questions about Hamlet, but we didn't get this from any of our teachers.

Instead we would sit around after school and discuss the books that we had been reading. Unfortuantely we didn't always come up with answers to our questions because we lacked the experience to do so. We did however attempt to answer the questions and if we couldn't do so off the top of our heads, we searched for them.

We found for example that the libarians at our local library were willing to help us. I don't remember anyone giving us the answers although they did "spoon-feed" us facts so we could pass tests.

Scrawler I was always in hot water when I was teaching. I wanted to teach every side of the question but the school administration's formula was not for that. I left teaching because there was no room in the public school system for what I thought teaching was all about and that was a teacher teaches every side of every question and lets the students make up their own minds based on knowing different viewpoints. When my son, in particular, went to college (in the 1970s) the only way he could pass any of his courses was to agree with the professors view points if he did not, he got a failing grade. Fortunately he grew into an adult who questions every side to every question and then decides the issues at hand. I am told by my grandchildren that you will never get a passing grade if you even disagree with the professor during discussions in the classroom much less on a test or paper. At least in 1976 my son had a chance to disagree with his professors whereas now, my grandchildren are shot down when they even try to ask a question.

If I had children in school now, at any level, I would be monitoring the classrooms and if need be, I would be home schooling them.

You're right, GINNY. I knew the two short verses in the middle, and thought that was all there was. What a shame, when the other two verses were beautiful.

It's so nice to find McCourt actually enjoying teaching now. "I'm finding my voice and my own style of teaching." Then I had to laugh at what he wrote later, talking to himself,..afraid of tempting fate, I guess.

"Maybe you could find a way of enjoying yourself less. You were alwys ingenious at making yourself miserable and you don't want to lose your touch."

His Irish Catholic heritage does play a very heavy role in forming the man we see here. The teaching on examination of conscience weighed heavily. Self-examination doesn't carry so negative a connotation for us Protestants. We are taught to examine ourselves so as to become aware of those things that we need to work on; that need changing. But the Catholic version, at least as learned by Frank McCourt, was different.

"I must congratulate myself in passing, for never having lost the ability to examine my conscience, never having lost the gift of finding myself wanting and defective."

Yikes! What a piece of baggage to carry around all one's life. This is even worse than the expertise of Jewish Mothers on handing out guilt trips, as reported by my Jewish relatives!

Babi

Jewish mothers do not have the monopoly on handing out guilt trips Babi!

Carolyn

Babi #410...It's so nice to find McCourt actually enjoying teaching now. "I'm finding my voice and my own style of teaching."

Yes, but what about the students he is being paid to teach? Their parents paid a lot of money to send them to this privileged high school, to be prepared to attend prestigious colleges. While he is free at last, and comfortable, does he not owe these students the proper education to prepare them for college? I see him throughout this entire book as self serving.

Babi #410...."His Irish Catholic heritage does play a very heavy role in forming the man we see here. The teaching on examination of conscience weighed heavily. Self-examination doesn't carry so negative a connotation for us Protestants. We are taught to examine ourselves so as to become aware of those things that we need to work on; that need changing. But the Catholic version, at least as learned by Frank McCourt, was different."

When does he take responsibility for his own decisions and actions? How much of this is self inflicted? Yes, the Catholic church taught awareness of sin and confession. Yes, the nuns were strict with discipline and bitter. Yes, he was mocked as a child. I lived through this and much much more and many people did. I cherish my Catholic faith and while it is not perfect and has its flaws, I am proud to be an Irish/ Italian Catholic.

I watched Angela's Ashes last night and I read on the DVD jacket how he says, "Angela's Ashes is the perfect realization of my book on film. In that case... I saw two parents who loved him very much. Yes, his father was an alcoholic but he showed him love and tenderness. I can't ever remember hearing the words I love you as a child. I lived through more than Frank could imagine and I refused to use it as an excuse into my adult life. Frank had more opportunities then many in his adult life, he had a wife who cared enough to ask him to get help. Instead he commits adultery. I can't help but feel he carried that baggage around far too long so he could excuse himself of his bad behavior, actions and poor decision making. Again I have see him as self serving and not caring whether the students got an education or not. While he was creative, a great storyteller and came up with ingenious ways of getting through the day without having to teach a lesson plan, I feel he deprived these students of the education they deserved to prepare them for college.

I have to agree with his former Stuyvesant student Michael when he states,

"He knew that teaching high school was beneath him, but he lacked the ambition and drive to rise above that into a more prestigious profession." "In the end, Frank McCourt is one of his generation’s most brilliant memoirists, and he was perhaps the most witty and entertaining man ever to stand in front of a high school classroom, but he was not especially good at actually teaching high school English."

BellaMarie, thank you for Michael's thoughts, I kind of suspected the same thing, but again, Michael is only one of thousands of students, yet for some reason that sort of sorts out what I also thought. I'll put that in the heading and ask for reactions, too.

I don't think anybody doubts how brilliant he is, nor how charming or charistmatic he can be, and I liked his statement above that he carries around with him his own worst critic, that says a LOT about his writing.

I can't imagine carrying all that baggage either EllH, but truth to tell a lot of us have baggage.

Babi, I had begun to despair too but it seems that the students and the administrators at Stuyvesant in so many many ways seem to validate him as a person, trust him, and look forward to him. Unfortunately WITH that comes a ton of work, in one place he talks about how many many papers and words wait for him and I loved the bit about how he'd like to sit down and enjoy something but THERE THEY ARE staring at him, I liked that, and it's so true.

Colkot, why did your older son interview McCourt before he became so famous, and what did he say?

SierraRose, and Carolyn, oh yes the bells, it's hard to stay anywhere in Europe you don't hear the BELLS! My favorite hotel in Paris has the magnificent bells of the church of St. Germain L'Auxxerois probably spelled wrong and not only do you overlook the gargoyles you hear the BELLS!!!!\\

Wonderful stories here of New Zeland and Greece!

Babi, I agree on Roger Goodman, you put it so beautifully.

Roger Goodman sounds like the kind of supervisor every teacher would love to have. He admires and respects the talents of his staff. They are permitted to teach whatever they like. He doesn't hover and criticize. He is friendly and not at all supercilious. No wonder McCourt opened up in this atmosphere.

Yes and the interested intelligent studends, McCourt is blessed here to have found his niche.

I am not sure what the tradition of "begrudgery" would consist of, it sounds unpleasant. Haahaha

Good point Ella on the humor and McCourt's religious views.

BellaMarie, good point on staying in the moment, it's hard for anybody, possibly?

I also don't know too much about Alberta, only what he's told us and it seems somewhat negative, so that's all we have to go on, maybe SHE should write a book!!!

Scrawler, I like Roger too, interesting that you pick up on how he "sounds too good to be true," I am wondering if that's for a reason? Interesting!

Thank you for that interesting look at schools in New Zealand, Carolyn.

I agree Sierra Rose on your subjects you'd like to see McCourt write about and EllH also.

Scrawler, good point about hearing more about "cause and effect" in McCourt's life.

I have a lot of questions, too, BellaMarie, my main one is how many of his former students keep in contact with him.

This was an interesting statement, BellaMarie, "love to have him write a autobiography, so I can have a clear truthful picture of his feelings, his life in Limerick and the United States," as it seems to imply a difference in:

an autobiography and a memoir

the clarity and veracity of what he's saying here.

IS he in fact simply telling "stories" with a real time frame (whatever it is, I am totally confused on the dates)?

"If I had never stumbled upon SeniorNet and began this discussion group, I know I would have never decided on my own to choose to read this book." That's true for me, too, as I am not a fan, but that's the joy of our own SeniorNet Book discussions and we're sure glad you DID stumble on us!!!!

I don't know anything about Parochial education so I can't relate to a lot of what's being said about nuns and priests.

I do think Teaching used to be respected as a profession, and I did think McCourt made a telling statement in the beginning chapters when he said imagine that, a teacher being invited…XXX and asked for his opinion. I think he was right there, and yet the teacher is dealing with our future in the person of the children they influence.

Marni, thank you for those memories of the stories you heard about the Catholic high school. FUNNY story of the smoke in the drawer! Hahahahaha I liked the way your boss made it feel as if you were a team together.

I didn't see Dancing at Lughnasa but I will try ot get it on Netflix, thank you for that recommendation.

Scrawler, good point about how McCourt forced the students to think,and Delphine about the role of inquiry in the classroom and its dangers!!

Babi, isn't that a hoot on When Irish Eyes are Smiling? I thought it was some kind of old Irish song! WRONG!

Good point on the differing roles of self examination!!

BellaMarie, I have not seen the movie Angela's Ashes, and you saw love from his parents. That's a gift that many children, unfortunately, don't get to enjoy.

Nobody has commented on the reading of cookbooks and the little picnic? "The kids in other classes wished they could read recipes instead of Alfred Lord Tennyson and Thomas Carlyle. Other teachers were teaching solid stuff, analyzing poetry, assigning research papers, and giving lessons on the correct use of footnotes and bibliography."

I am finding that sort of… reasoning a bit strange here. He's being paid to teach Creative Writing, not poetry analysis or footnoting, I think just here just for a second, he protests about his genius and ingenuity too much.

As far as wanting to read recipes instead of Tennyson, the Tennyson teacher must have been awful, there is NOBODY better than Tennyson much less some recipe. Snort.

Let's move on to Little Bo Peep and the reason for introducing it in the class, in Chapter 14. What was your reaction and why?

"No, I'm not trying to make some kind of point except to say I like this poem because of its simple message.

That people should stop bothering people. Little Bo Peep backs off. She could stay up all night, waiting and whimpering by the door, but she knows better. She trusts her sheep. She leaves them alone and they come home, and you can imagine the joyful reunion, a lot of merry bleating and frolicking and deep expressions of satisfaction from the rams as they settle in for the night while Bo Peep knits by the fire happy in the knowledge that in her daily rounds, caring for the sheep and their offspring, she has bothered nobody."

I like the fact that McCourt used this simple nursery rhyme to get his message across to the students. But what is the message that he wants to get across? "That people should stop bothering people." But what has that message got to do with English and for that matter what does it have to do with the students. If McCourt were facing the "parents" of the students than I could see that the message would have some significance. Than again perhaps the message is not as simple as it seems to be. I can see where it might suggest that we should live and let live, but when you are a student this is very difficult to do. It would suggest that the students had a choice as to what they could do or not do, but that wasn't the case. Like what other posts suggested students either agreed with what the teacher was telling you or they flunked!

So Bo Beep went home and bothered no one and the sheep came home all by themselves? Well, that's fine in an ideal world in which there are no dangers for sheep. But the world is NOT ideal. In fact the world is filled with wolves, things that are deliberately wolfish by choice or circumstance, and things that are wolfish by nature, and as a shepherdess Bo Peep did have the responsibility to see that her sheep got home safely. So in her daily rounds she has not cared for her sheep or her offspring by just trusting them, and has no business sitting by the fire happily knitting and waiting while her sheep may be out there being hunted by wolves. Some shepherdess!!!

McCourt seems to be hung up on "people not bothering people", but to be have safety in an unsafe world one has to "bother people", especially those for whom one is responsible. I feel his BoPeep was irresponsible. People gathered together into societies for protection from that dangerous world out there. So do most HERD ANIMALS.

To have a society one has to "bother" people. There have to be rules and agreements, punishments and ways of doing things or it will all fall into chaos. So I really don't get why he is hung up on this particular point, and even though I'm a hermit and "don't bother people" and generally they don't bother me, I live OUTSIDE of society. However, if everyone lived that way we would all be little islands sitting there by ourselves with all the dangers all around us and not much ambition. Not a pleasant prospect, to my way of thinking.

And human beings, taking the path of least resistance, would do exactly that if no one "bothered anyone". That also means there would be no schools because I don't think any child would make a voluntary effort to go to school if he wasn't forced to go. In fact, if no one "bothered" anyone else there would be no competition, no economic advancement, and we'd all be back in the stone age.

So what is he trying to say here? To me it sounds like total nonsense because of his own peculiar hang-ups about being "bothered". As in everything, there is a fine balance between living and letting live, and being a busy-body. He seems to be over-reacting in a way I find incomprehensible.

. . . sure, it's creative---to a point. But to go on and on with it besides just having a bit of fun with words for a few minutes, also seems absurd to me. To have a bit fun with any nonsense string of words is OK, but to exclude REAL words and sentences and poets who have some important knowledge of human history and psychology to impart is also absurd. And to sing receipes??? Sorry, but as a student I would have been outraged to HAVE to be in school according to the law and waste my time like that.

My mother "sang" receipes. She was always singing when she cooked or cleaned, expressing her joy at having survived, I guess, in a home where she was able to clean and cook. But why spend time in school with that?

Again, I don't "get" what he was trying to teach here, or how that could get these kids through college, except that it may have opened some creative channels in them. And certainly creativity is important, but not at the price of teaching basics, because without the basics the creativity cannot be channeled properly.

HELP! I don't understand why he's so proud of this.

Ginny, I thought about commenting on this, but I found myself even more frustrated in chapter 13then before if that's possible. I am going to play the devil's advocate here. I think while each of the students experienced the many diverse foods, and learned to read recipes, I am still trying to understand what on earth this has to do with preparing them for college in a Creative Writing class. Oh course students flocked to his elective class, who wouldn't when you could goof off and still get a passing grade? I sure am glad he is having fun....at the expense of these students education. (did you hear my sarcasm?")lol

As for Little Bo Peep....I say POPPYKOSH....(is that a word.) lolol I seriously think he is trying to give to these students insight beyond their years. Scrawler I agree with this, ." But what has that message got to do with English and for that matter what does it have to do with the students. If McCourt were facing the "parents" of the students than I could see that the message would have some significance."

I say its all smoke and mirrors to keep from teaching the lesson plan just like his storytelling.

Ginny,...Yes, that was only one student's point of view and I am certain there are many who could be much more positive, at least I would hope so.

His personal Observation report on pg. 219 shows he knows what he is doing and doesn't give a rats arse! Oh dear I think this man is starting to really get to me....lolol I have to laugh for fear of flaming!

After watching Angela's Ashes the other night and reading Teacher Man I have been pondering on how he could waste so much of his life doing what he was not meant to do. I sat in church today listening to our deacon's homily and he said something that really hit me where FM is concerned. He said, "How can you lead anyone to the light, when you are standing in darkness?" Wow....Thank you God, it helps me put it all into perspective. I think.... Frank, is in darkness in the classroom. Writing is his forte, writing books is his light, teaching was his off Broadway play with the lights out and curtain pulled down.

Ginny, my friend...I know like you said, "there were thousands of students..", I am certain he touched many in ways like Michael shared with us, "He left an indelible impression." I chose to see that in a complimentary way.

I tend to agree with you. His teaching methods leave me baffled.

. . . leaves me baffled: "He knew that teaching high school was beneath him, but he lacked the ambition and drive to rise above that into a more prestigious profession."

I see teaching as a wonderful occupation and I don't see teachers as "lacking ambition and drive to rise above that into a more prestigious profession". That statement shows incredible prejudice to me about a profession that is really the basis of everything else. Without teachers the whole structure of the "more prestigious professions" would come tumbling down. The statement also shows the tyical modern American attitude towards teaching, and one of the reasons they are probably not paid what they are worth.

I think if one wants to be a teacher, has the ability to teach, it is one of THE MOST HONORABLE professions there is----at least up there with doctors and other Indian chiefs and certainly a thousand times more valuable than any anchorman. movie star, famous writer or lawyer.

Teaching is the backbone of everything else, the foundation, and without the foundation the building would not stand. So I really find that sentence quite insulting and buying into the current modus operandi of "ambition and money" above everything for the sake of "prestige".

That, to me, is very misguided.

You must have been writing at the same time I was, because I did not see your posts 415 & 416. . WOW!!!! You must have been reading my mind, but let me say... you put the thoughts down in words so much more eloquent than I.

I am so happy to see others are reacting to these chapters the same as myself, I was beginning to think I was alone.

SierraroseCA...."Again, I don't "get" what he was trying to teach here, or how that could get these kids through college, except that it may have opened some creative channels in them. And certainly creativity is important, but not at the price of teaching basics, because without the basics the creativity cannot be channeled properly."

To this I say, AMEN!

To your post about, Bo Peep I could not stop laughing and crying at the same time ......you were so on target, yet I thought I would split my side laughing so hard each time I read "BOTHER".

KOOOOODOOOOOOOOSSS to you SierraroseCA!!! I agree with every point you made. Could not have said it better.

Thank you, now I can go about my day with a smile

I too think teaching is such an important profession. I do not begrudge a teacher one penny of their salary and wish they got paid more. We trust our children to these professionals and the children spend more than half of their waking hours in term time with these professionals. Teachers are grossly undervalued. Expectations are great from parents but often parents can make a teachers life a misery for no reason. My daughter says there are parents at Brookes school that she herself would like to see banned from the school grounds because they interfere so much. For instance giving the teacher a hard time because their child was not chosen for the school play. ( the child cannot act!)

Carolyn

When it comes to grammar, parsing sentences for example, I agree that McCourt does not shine. IMO, he is good at teaching literature, and when he begins to teach Creative Writing he shines! All teachers have their forte'; grammar was not McCourts. But since grammar, including sentence analysis, footnotes, etc., is taught throughout four years of high school, I doubt his students were ruined by his shortcomings in that area.

When the former student Bellarose quoted said that 'teaching high school was beneath him', I understood him to be saying that McCourt's teaching was on a college level, but that he never applied himself to get the degree he needed. From first to last, McCourt shows himself as an inept student, unable to focus and concentrate...or stay awake.

And now, Frank McCourt is showing himself as a gifted writer. How many times have we laughed at his wry humor? Think of the simple stories that were told with such poignancy. I don't believe we have ever discussed a book before that elicited so much commentary, pro and con. So much strong feeling. What better hallmark of a gifted author, I ask you?

Babi

. . . McCourt is a gifted author and story teller. He certainly is that, and he found his milieu.

BUT, I question is teaching methods, and this is a book about his teaching experience. Even in creative writing one has to have correct spelling, proper sentence structure, grammar and punctuation. I can see his wanting to teach creative writing by making his students "more creative" and looking at old words in new ways, but one still has to adhere to the basic structure, or it's simply "babbling".

Even in art, an artist who paints an "abstract" picture still has to have the basics under his belt, such as color theory, composition, light/dark contrasts, negative/positive space, etc. An artist who simply goes off to paint without struggling with those basics is creating "junk" even if he calls himself an artist; even if the whole world calls him an artist. And I feel with the lessons that McCort describes, he was teaching "junk". No wonder colleges have to teach "remedial courses" to get the kids up to snuff.

Of course, he only describes a very limited agenda, and he never does say if he got lessons in actual spelling, punctuation and grammar in there also. I can only hope that he did.

His singing of receipes makes more sense to me than BoPeep. At least it was creative in the sense that one can listen to the sounds of words and how they fit together. I simply am at a loss as to what was being taught with BoPeep. Right now I would call it a sort of "junk psychology".

So, just because his classes were "fun" how does that make him an outstanding teacher, or, as Publisher's Weekly said, that it should be mandatory reading for every teacher or politician? I really dislike the sort of lack of critical thinking where, just because a person is popular and it's all "fun", everyone gets on the bandwagon whether or not there is anything of value in what is being said, including a national magazine. And how this will improve any school system is beyond me.

To me the book was an enjoyable read, a fun look at one person who happened to be a man, a teacher and an immigrant---but it says nothing much of importance beyond that.

So glad I "bothered" you enough to make you laugh; and you are definitely not alone.

Talking about Grammar I am delighted to see my grand aged almost nine using really good punctuation. I tutor her. Yesterday she had to learn 10 words and to write five sentences using five of the words. Her punctuation was so good! It was our first session and I did not have the interactive CD her mother has ordered for us from the school so we improvised. I do one hour of tutoring in reading, comprehension and spelling. I asked Brooke if she had enjoyed her hour. She said "I like you teaching me Granny its more fun" For a reward afterwards we played a computer game. (It was a game for eye hand co ordination but it was also great fun. Brooke and I were yelling so much as we played her father said he could hear us as he came in the front gate! LOL)

Carolyn

Babi # 422....When the former student Bellarose quoted said that "teaching high school was beneath him', I understood him to be saying that McCourt's teaching was on a college level, but that he never applied himself to get the degree he needed.

Thank you Babi, yes indeed that is exactly what I understood Michael to be saying. From chatting with him he never came over to me whatsoever as a person who looked down on a teacher's job. He felt some students felt intimidated to FM as a high school teacher.

SierraroseCA # 423 "So, just because his classes were "fun" how does that make him an outstanding teacher, or, as Publisher's Weekly said, that it should be mandatory reading for every teacher or politician? I really dislike the sort of lack of critical thinking where, just because a person is popular and it's all "fun", everyone gets on the bandwagon whether or not there is anything of value in what is being said, including a national magazine. And how this will improve any school system is beyond me.

I had the same feelings once again as you, I think it was an overstatement or overhyping the book to sell. I did not find much at all in this book that could help any teacher how to teach, especially English. If anything I saw much to help a teacher learn how NOT to teach or get fired!

SierraroseCA I do thank you for all your thoughts and points in defense of a teacher's job. Being a teacher, I agree with all you said. Teachers are under paid, many do lack respect for their profession and yes, teachers do spend more time with the children then their actual parents. I thank you for your passionate plea. AND.......you can "bother" me anytime you like to make me laugh

I didn't get the idea, from reading this book, that FM ignored the basics. He did not care for diagramming sentences, but there are plenty of basics to cover in English besides that. I think he preferred to write about some of the more unconventional approaches that he used in classes.

Re the reading recipes episode in Creative Writing - I think absolutely that FM "may have opened some creative channels" in his students' minds. Teaching Creative Writing is not like teaching a literature or a history or a Latin course. I think creative writing is very difficult for many people. So much of what we are asked to write in our lives has absolutely nothing to do with being particularly creative. How to get students to free themselves of years of rules and restrictions on their writing? FM had it figured out. Get them to look at things in a new way - like reading recipes aloud.

I was quite amazed at what the students came up with - a number of them actually performed and combined multiple arts.

I remember a Creative Writing assignment I was given in high school from a teacher with unusual ideas, a very popular teacher. He gave everyone in class a piece of aluminum wrap with a drop of water on it. We had to write an essay about it. I was stumped. But later, when people read their essays aloud, it was astounding what some kids in class came up with. I remember one classmate wrote brilliantly about a monster drop absorbing other drops of water in its path.

I had to teach Creative Writing for several years when I taught English in high school. It was a very difficult subject for me to teach. You can't just teach kids to be creative. A lot of it is in establishing an environment. FM had a natural instinct for this. I had to be shown a way. I would have loved some teaching tips from FM back then.

This weekend we watched some sheep dog trials at a national competition. Wow, was that interesting. It was just like in the movie Babe. Approx. 150 sheep dogs competed by herding groups of 3 sheep down a huge field through 3 sets of gates. Their owners used whistle queues, hand signals, and voice commands. Dogs were disqualified for such things as nipping the sheeps' heels and for going over the time limit. I saw one sheep just lie down like it was playing dead. Someone there told me that sheep do that when they get overstressed from the dog and then the dog must know to back off and let the sheep feel less threatened. It was interesting to see the other 2 sheep gather around the stressed sheep like they were comforting it.

Marni, good point on how to make people be creative:

I had to teach Creative Writing for several years when I taught English in high school. It was a very difficult subject for me to teach. You can't just teach kids to be creative. A lot of it is in establishing an environment. FM had a natural instinct for this. I had to be shown a way. I would have loved some teaching tips from FM back then.

Of course if we were all creative we'd ALL be Pulitzer Prize winners like he is. What beter trait to teach Creativity!! (And I also bet you were an extremely creative teacher!)

(Believe it or not I have heard of some Latin teachers who are quite creative, too. Not all, but some. Hahaaa)

Aren't those sheepdog trials fabulous? Did you see this in person? I love them, but sheep are quite notorious for going astray and needing shepherds, how many expressions and metaphors are there for "lost sheep," etc. McCourt has given his own interpretation of Bo Peep and I think he made some great points in these final chapters that apply to our own Books effort here and I'd like to address them and to hear what YOU all thought.

Scrawler, I agree, what was the point of the Bo Peep exercise for the student? He DID bring in later more fairy tales and he did try to relate it later on, it was a nice try, I'm not sure it quite succeeded.

But again to teach CREATIVITY you may have to show some, as Marni says, and he does that, he does make them think.

I agree, SierraRose on the actuality of sheep versus the fairy tale. I like your take on an excuse for irresponsibility and a platform to talk again about being "bothered," but note what he's done, he's got US talking about Bo Peep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahaha

Now THAT'S Creative with a Capital C.

Of course with Hansel and Gretel he had a perfect venue to explain the Brothers Grimm, and why these tales are the way they are, I'm not sure he did.

I agree, BellaMarie, with what you have said, and I added the thousands of other students in a Bo Peep effort to bend over backwards so I'm not on only one side. These entire ending chapters, through Chapter 18, really left me PERSONALLY flat and underwhelmed, they don't seem to hang together well and are extremely self congratulatory and ingenuous. But that's only my opinion. There are super things in them I loved. There are things I did not, and lots to discuss. I thought that Michael was quite…..diplomatic.

Carolyn, good point on the role of teachers in the schools, and it sounds like Brooke has a pretty gifted teacher, herself, in you!

An excellent point, Babi: I don't believe we have ever discussed a book before that elicited so much commentary, pro and con. So much strong feeling. What better hallmark of a gifted author, I ask you?

Or a good and skilled bunch of book clubbers!

BellaMarie, you noticed that the "every teacher should read this" blurb is still in the heading!! Hahahaa YEP it sure is, and I'm glad we're looking at it, good job!

I had the same feelings once again as you, I think it was an overstatement or overhyping the book to sell. I did not find much at all in this book that could help any teacher how to teach, especially English. If anything I saw much to help a teacher learn how NOT to teach or get fired!

But he's NOT in these last chapters, TEACHING English (or he actually WAS but apparently…this is one of the problems I have with the book, only in some classes? That was nto clear, but as a teacher of Creative Anything, you have to admit he makes them think and is, himself, most creative. We have to give him that.

I must admit now that we've come to the end of the book I am of mixed feelings about it, and him. The end of the book seems strange, to me, and strangely self congratulatory for some reason.

But am I supposed to notice?

He did some things here that I REALLY like and that I'd like to talk about, and I'd like to know what you think about anything here.

Things I liked:

I liked his inclusion of the story of Bob and how he hugged him on the street. I have some problems understanding why somebody has not told Bob there is more to farming than hogs, and that it does take further education, I hope Bob today IS on that farm, growing wheat or soybeans or something.

I liked his inclusion of the story of Ken and I was very glad to read that Ken had come back to see him.

Questions I had and hope you can help with or would like to discuss:

Who is Herbert Huncke? (page 250) Why is he included in this book? What's the point of including him and the details of his life?

The two minute rule for parents: "This is nice," she said. "You have time to guzzle beer but you can't spare a minute for a parent who waited half an hour to see you." (page 235).

What is your opinion of the 2 minute Parent Conference on Open House Night? Whose side are you on here and why? Could McCourt have stayed the length of time it would have taken each parent?

Why do schools insist upon Parent-Teacher nights like this and then complain when no parents show up?

I don’t want to sneer but old habits die hard. It's the resentment. Not even anger. Just resentment. (page 243)…What is the basis for this chip on his shoulder that McCourt seems to have?

Have you read the "chilling essay by Thoreau called 'Walking?' where he says when you go out the door for a walk you should be so free, so unencumbered, you need never return to the starting place. You just keep walking because you're free."

What is keeping McCourt from Walking?
Do you think / Thoreau's idea is practical?

"In all my years at Stuvyesant only one parent, a mother, asked if her son weas enjoying school….One parent in all those years." (page 235).

What is your reaction to this question? Is this a question you would ask? Would this be your prime consideration as a parent? Would this question be better put to the student since it's about his personal emotions? What do you think the parent meant by it?

What is your opinion of Chapter 18?

The question of analysis of literature is one that has plagued our Book discussions for years. McCourt here does a masterful job of presenting both sides. Let's look at both:

Argument I:
"Why can't we just leave it alone? Just take the story and feel sorry for the kid and the mother…and not analyze it to death?"

Rebuttal: "We're not analyzing. We're just responding. If you go to a movie you come out talking about it, don't you?"

Argument II: "Sometimes, but this is poem and you know what English teachers do to poems. Analyze, analyze, analyze. Dig for the ddper meaning. That's what turned me against poetry. Someone should dig a grave and bury the deeper meaning."

Rebuttal:

" I asked you what happened when you read the poem. If nothing happened it's not a crime" (223).

It's all writing, but the difference between you and the man on the street is that you are looking at it….getting it set in your hear, realizing the significance of the insignificant, getting it on paper. You might be in the throes of love or grief but you are ruthless in observation. You are your material. (page 246)

What are the pros and cons of "looking closely" at a piece of literature? Let's examine, as McCourt has, the benefits and drawbacks of both sides!

That last question there will open a Pandora's Box with me, and I wonder if it has something to do with what Delphine said back there a ways, about her son having found out he had to have the "right answer," this is a very important topic and one which really jerks all of my chains, so I'd like to hear your thoughts first before I release the Furies. Hahahaa

LOTS and LOTS of super provocative questions for us today! But this group can handle it, let's hear from everybody on one of these subjects today!!

Marni....We would all like to give FM the benefit of the doubt and hope he did teach the students the basics of English. We would all like to hope the students got some education the year they had FM for a teacher, and if not then we do know they did not have him their whole entire high school years, so other teachers who knew how to teach the basics, I am sure did just that. We can agree that FM was creative in his teaching methods and his storytelling.

But.......He himself repeats over and over and over again throughout this entire book how he was not able to teach the lesson plans because HE was not educated to do so. He admits he does not even know how to diagram a sentence. He admits he was a lousy teacher, and that he used storytelling and all his antics to keep from teaching the subject material because HE did not know it to teach.

I'm not sure what all that Bo Peep stuff was about, but I do know that he says, its to teach people not to bother other people. Now how creative was that? I saw chapter 13 one big fiasco of elementary antics to distract himself and the students from learning the real lesson of creative writing.

Marni, you seem to make a better argument for FM then he does throughout the entire book. If you go back and read on pg. 219 his observation letter he acknowledges he is not sure he is teaching anything.... "Regrettably, there was nothing on the chalkboard to indicate the nature of the day's lesson. That may explain why the notebooks lay unused in the student's bags. Within my rights as an Assistant Deputy Superintendent of Pedagogy I queried some of your students when the session ended as to whatever learnings they might have carried away that day. They were vague to the point of head scratching, completely at a loss as to the point of this singing activity. One said he had enjoyed himself and that is a valid comment but, surely that is not the purpose of a high school education."......These are Frank McMcourt's thoughts and how he perceives himself as a teacher!

FM admits he was selfish. I say he was selfish to the point of depriving himself and the students the education they deserved. He could get away with this stuff at McKee vocational because he seemed to think the ill equipped students didn't want to learn anything anyway. But at Stuyuasant an UPPER CRUST privileged school, he had NO excuse for not providing these students with a proper education to prepare them for the colleges they were expected to go to.

He writes pg. 253..."Serious students are not satisfied. Serious students say it is satisfying when you know in advance what you are supposed to know so that you can set about knowing it. They say, in this class you never know what you're suppose to, so how can you study and how can you possibly evaluate yourself?"

All I do know is that he admits, "he did not always love teaching and he was out of his depth."

Do you feel this, tho? Don't you think creativity takes a LOT of energy to maintain and that it burns out, sometimes fairly quickly?

Maybe some types of creativity are more work than others, but I've often found some aspects of it are very exhausting. It may be my own personal limitations.

And then too, people tend to sort of...squash it? That is you can be going on in your own little world and then people "bother" you, and your little spark dies.

I do think that McCourt again is saying out loud what another man would not: that after 30 years he did not always enjoy teaching, that might mean he was not in the right subject or field, or it might mean he's saying what other teachers have said before him, or it could mean that he needed to quit.

I don't know because WE have not the first hand experience of sizing him up in the classroom. If he gave the impression he WAS too good for teaching as Michael seemed to think, that would be one thing. We don't know. All we have are his thoughts to work with, not the impression he makes personally.

I think it's a good springboard for discussion, pro and con, he's certainly not having a problem sparking OUR creativity!

Ginny: Yes, at least one Latin teacher I know - YOU - is extremely creative!

We saw the sheepdog trials live in Bloomfield, CT, the town next to my town of Windsor. They've been holding the competition there for years, apparently, and I never knew about it.

Have you read the "chilling essay by Thoreau called 'Walking?' where he says when you go out the door for a walk you should be so free, so unencumbered, you need never return to the starting place. You just keep walking because you're free."

What is keeping McCourt from Walking? ---- FEAR, and the fact that deep down he already knows it's impossible and "chilling". Do you think / Thoreau's idea is practical? ---- No, it isn't practical. I've done that, walked and kept going without looking back and being so free and unencumbered that I could have kept on walking. forever. But the REALITY is that eventually you get tired; you feel you have nowhere to lay your head; you long for some security and comfort. That's when you end up with all the "things" you need for living again. Even though I've tried to keep my life very simple and basic and could walk away from it all again without looking back, I know that eventually I'd end up in the same place again, with restrictions and encumbered with responsibility to others and material possessions. That longing for complete freedom from all material things and from responsibility is something that many of us have, but it's impossible to keep up because we have bodies that need to be clothed, fed and sheltered. To put this idea into the heads of young people as an "ideal" according to Thoreau is actually quite irresponsible, since these are the very young people who will have spouses and children---and spouses and children deserve better than that.

_________________________

"In all my years at Stuvyesant only one parent, a mother, asked if her son weas enjoying school….One parent in all those years." (page 235). ---- While I think it's wonderful if a child "enjoys" school, I don't think it's necessary. Children used to work in coal mines and on farms, and they grew up anyway. No reason why everything should be fun and games instead of work, although work can be enjoyed with the right attitude. Children who have only enjoyment actually become quite spoiled and selfish and they need constant entertainment and outside stimulus instead of entertaining themselves and taking joy in little things, like a flower or a blue sky or a creek flowing by.

____________________________

The question of analysis of literature is one that has plagued our Book discussions for years. McCourt here does a masterful job of presenting both sides. Let's look at both:

Argument I: "Why can't we just leave it alone? Just take the story and feel sorry for the kid and the mother…and not analyze it to death?" ---- Actually I've often wondered that myself. Just leave it alone for what the surface meaning says. BUT---then we wouldn't learn anything. One can learn a lot about life and living and morals by reading and analyzing, and after a while surface meaning becomes boring and you begin to realize how much you are missing. I read books as a child and was satisfied with the surface meaning, but as an adult I loved analyzing and dissecting the same book, and I saw layers of meaning instead of just the ripples on the surface. It's always exciting to find layer after layer of meaning, things I may never have considered or thought of by myself, like a journey to the depth of the ocean where all sorts of new things are encountered. Of course, one has to remember that one can also drown in an ocean, and one can drown in over-analyzing something to where it all becomes trivial.

Rebuttal: "We're not analyzing. We're just responding. If you go to a movie you come out talking about it, don't you?" ---- I think it's quite natural to talk about the impact a movie or a book or art or music had on you. In fact, talking about it is a sort of sharing that enhances the experience and allows insight into other people's minds, how they perceive things in different ways.

Argument II: "Sometimes, but this is poem and you know what English teachers do to poems. Analyze, analyze, analyze. Dig for the ddper meaning. That's what turned me against poetry. Someone should dig a grave and bury the deeper meaning." ----- I can relate to this about poetry. I have a hard time with it because a high school teacher I had refused to accept the meaning I gave to one of Frost's poems. I just saw it differently from the way she saw it---but to her there was only ONE meaning, and if you didn't agree to that meaning you were WRONG. Today I would have enough confidence to not only be able to see her point of view, but also keep my own point of view without contradicting her. In fact, I still see that particular poem in exactly the same way I did back then, but also can clearly see how it could be interpreted her way, depending on the experiences one has had in life and the general make-up of the person reading it. There are some people who put a negative connotation on everything, and I don't necessarily do that because I don't see life that way.

A poem, a piece of music, a picture, all have surface meaning, and layers of meaning. It is our right to choose the layer we are most comfortable with, without closing our minds to the other layers.

__________________________ Rebuttal:

" I asked you what happened when you read the poem. If nothing happened it's not a crime" (223). ---- I think this is a VERY GOOD response. We don't have to react in the same way to the same stimulus. Wish some teacher had said that to me at an impressionable young age.

________________________________

..."Serious students are not satisfied. Serious students say it is satisfying when you know in advance what you are supposed to know so that you can set about knowing it. They say, in this class you never know what you're suppose to, so how can you study and how can you possibly evaluate yourself?" ---- Creativity is SUPPOSED TO BE free form, without "knowing" or "evaluating". Creativity is hard to pin down. Serious students have often forgotten how to "play", and play is ultra-important to creativity. So we need both---structure as well as free-form creativity. Either one without the other gets you stuck.

Corporations have even learned that basic, that when one has a creativity seminar, no one is criticized, no one is wrong, every crazy idea is laid out on the table, because no matter how crazy the idea might sound, it could be the kernel or seed of something very practical when it's transformed in other people's minds. Those corporations who refuse creativity or laugh at it or consider creative people "difficult" will eventually get stuck. So will students, and so will our society.

I hate the fact that some teachers insist their interpretation of a book or a poem is the correct one. I think of several authors who I have heard say in interviews "That was not what I had in mind when I wrote that chapter" This truly points to the fact that writing is one of the arts and being an art can speak differently to different people. Everyone has a different perspective on a work of art whether it be literature or a painting. As far as I am concerned that is how it should be.

carolyn

. . . we have sheepdog trials in our town every year. I've never been to one, but think I will stop by next time and watch. They are wonderful dogs, and sheep really do go astray and are pretty stupid. To me that means a shepherd or sheep dog has to "herd" them whether they like it or not (in other words, they have to be "bothered" to keep them safe).

Range cattle are the same way, ornery and easily spooked, and being a cowboy is an incredibly dusty, dirty, tough job. We still have a few of them around here, and it often amazes me to see how ornery and stupid and difficult a range steer can be. But that's one of the dangers of too much freedom. They range at will all over the land all year long, and become used to their freedom with all the dangers that go with that, and so they spook. Hahahahah, of course, if I were a cow out on the range I wouldn't want to be turned into hamburger either and I would surely spook too.

"[Herbert Huncke] is given credit for coining the term Beat Generation..."

Many of the Beat Generation Poets were on the fringes of American society. I'm not sure that teaching this idea to students attending this particular school was the right thing to do, but I think that McCourt was trying to get the students to write about not only what was around them, but also what was on the fringes of American society.

The Beat poets like Burroughs, Kerouac, and Allen Ginsberg showed us another America. One where I'm sure the students were totally unaware of living on Park Avenue etc. I remember seeing Kerouac and Ginsberg once in San Francisco. While I admit that at 18 I didn't understand everything they were writing about and because I lived in a comfortable suberian home I didn't know what the "fringes" of America were really like I was attracted to their poems. They filled a gap in our lives and showed us the raw emotion of the age.

Like I said I'm not sure why McCourt used this in his creative writing class except to make the students aware of what was around them. To me you really can't teach creative writing. But what you can teach is the discipline in what goes on behind creative writing.

Observation for example is very important in writing, but so too is persperation. What I mean by that is that it is all well in good to see what it is you Want to write. But the only way to get your ideas on paper is to write and write and write. That takes discipline. If you want to write you should read what you think you might like to write about and than write.

Jack London said in his autobiography that the way he learned to write was to copy word for word all the books in the Oakland library. By the time he was finished he knew how to write a novel.

. . . this comment: "McCourt was trying to get the students to write about not only what was around them, but also what was on the fringes of American society."

I've always understood that to write well one has to write about what one knows about. These kids from affluent homes had no idea about the fringes of American society, so why would he want them to write about what they don't know about? Did he just want to open their minds and expand their world view beyond their comfort zones? Just curious what your take is on this for the sake of my own interest.

I suppose one can spark creativity in many ways. In painting I have my own methods. One of them could also be used in writing, I think. I went all around my house and yard, and put the name of every item I saw on a slip of paper, thousands of things from a blade of grass to the washing machine, cut the slips all up and put them in a container. When I get stuck, I blindly pick out three items and try to make a picture of it. Sometimes it's awfully hard because the relationships are difficult to see, but it forces you into a creativity mode.

One set I can remember was: Tree, star, and a seed. It turned into a wonderful pencil drawing that expressed my personality pretty well.

Another was: Clothespin, dustpan, and heart. Bingo again, as an expression of how I felt about my life at the time.

Actually it's a lot of fun, and I suppose one could do a similar process in writing????????

In fact, it would be interesting to read the different versions about the same set of items. It always fascinates me how other people interpret things in artistic ways. One of the art magazines allows about ten artists to head for the same vacation spot, with the stipulation that they have to paint and the magazine can publish what they came up with. It's amazing how differently the same spot can be interpreted and what various people zero in on.

Ginny....I must first begin by saying you made some excellent points and asked some very thought provoking questions. I'm not sure where I want to begin....First I too have to say I found the final chapters a bit congratulatory. It's as though he wanted to wrap it all up with a big red bow and end it on a high note and take a bow. I'm just not so sure I bought it all.

I'm not sure if this is too far out of his character for me to believe. It sounds more like Frank trying to show us a side he thinks the readers would like to feel at the end, yet there was nothing in the book that would lead me to see him show any form of personal, physical affection to any of his students. I never saw this transformation coming. These bothered me and left me thinking how just out of character they were:

Bob....he hugged him on the street. I have some problems understanding why somebody has not told Bob there is more to farming than hogs, and that it does take further education, I hope Bob today IS on that farm, growing wheat or soybeans or something."

pg.244 "She (Phyllis) cried now, standing in front of the classroom. She could have stepped back to her seat in the front row and I hoped she would because I didn't know what to do. I went to her, I put my left arm around her. But that wasn't enough. I pulled her to me, embraced her with both arms, let her sob into my shoulder. Faces around the room were wet with tears till someone called, Right on, Phyllis, and one or two clapped and the whole class clapped and cheered and Phyllis turned to smile at them with her wet face and when I led her to her seat she turned and touched my cheek and I thought, This isn't earthshaking, this touch on the cheek, but I'll never forget it: Phyllis, her dead father, Armstrong on the moon."

If this is full truth which I sense there is some embellishment here for the readers sake, I would like to think he was finally shedding some layers as SierraroseCA pointed out we all have.

Its just odd how all the sensitive, caring, touchy feely parts come in the end, Ken the Korean, Phyllis, Bob and yes let's not forget Daniel.

Oh how my heart hurt for Daniel....and how Frank ate humble pie.

pg. 225 "Whenever a lesson sagged , whenever their minds wandered, when too many asked for the pass, I fell back on the "dinner interrogation." ...."the interrogation made me feel like a prosecutor playing with a witness. If the class was amused I took credit. I was at the center stage: Master Teacher, Interrogator, Puppeteer, Conductor." pg. 227 "I played to the crowd into Daniel took the wind out of my sails." "Oh, Daniel, I'm sorry. You should have told me instead of letting me put you through the dinner interrogation. I had played my little game: clever and amusing teacher-interrogator, and Daniel had been patient."

How sad this was to imagine Daniel, sitting there probably so filled with concern and worry for his dying father. Watching McCourt play his silly dinner interrogation and when he comes to play the game with Daniel he just plays along. I was so upset at the end of this page I thought if ever anyone needed a wake up call it was McCourt.

He played with all his students, at the risk of their emotions, and education. Now we come to the end of the book, and he wants his readers to see him in a total different light. I'm not buying it.

Ginny....I don’t want to sneer but old habits die hard. It's the resentment. Not even anger. Just resentment. (page 243)…What is the basis for this chip on his shoulder that McCourt seems to have?

He is totally rambling on in Chapter 16. What on earth is his urgency? I am reading and his thought process is all over the place. His final equation is FEAR to FREEDOM. Wow! Because he lives his entire life in fear he assumes everyone else does too? He needs to go back to the drawing board if this is the best he can come up with.

The best part I had in reading this book was the first few chapters where he showed humor. Not that I expected or wanted to see humor throughout the book, I will probably think about this book from time to time and still wonder if he got any help with overcoming his fear, his childhood and his angst and ailments. My speculation is, I fear NOT.

this is a book about his teaching experience

Exactly, SierraRose. McCourt's teaching experience, delivered most honestly. He says himself, "I didn't always love teaching. I was out of my depth."

But he came to love teaching, when he found his metier. When he was able to teach in his own way. When he had gained experience enough to be comfortable in his own classroom. He grew. None of us had it exactly right in the beginning, no matter what our career choice.

"You don't have to respond to every stimulus" What an important life lesson. I guess I always knew I couldn't like the same things everyone else liked, but for a long time I thought I had to explain myself,..apologize for not liking what someone else thought was great. It was a liberating day when I first told a friend I had a right to my own likes and dislikes, and didn't have to justify them.

Babi

Re "These kids from affluent homes...."

I don't think the students at Stuyvesant High School were all affluent even though the school is located in the Battery Park area after having moved from the East Side. It is a public school and tuition-free and admission is based on competitive exam. Wikipedia says that today approx 51% are Asian...."About 30% of the incoming freshman class are immigrants to the United States, while 20% are first-generation Americans....Although poor students abound, the dominant social group is upper-middle class, split largely between the White Manhattanites, the Brooklynite Jews, a few African Americans and Asians from Queens..."

The school specializes in math and science. It sounds sort of like what we call magnet schools in my area.

A friend sent me a copy of 'Tis and at the very back of it is a photograph of Frank McCourt standing in front of a desk (really leaning back on it), and I must say he's a very handsome man and a striking presence. I would think that his physical presence, combined with his Irish brogue and his creativity would be dazzling in person. It's possible he dazzles more in person when you can't SEE what's on his peripatetic mind, than on paper if that's possible. If so, that would account for a lot.

And he knows this. I believe he knows this, he does mention, AGAIN, here at the end, with his deadly need to expose his negative thoughts, Broadway, masks, lots of seemingly inconsequential things but together they indicate he knows the impression he's making. I think he's saying this is one me, but underneath here is what I really think.

No matter WHAT we think about him as a man or as a teacher (maybe two separate things) or as a writer, you have to admit he's fascinating and I really appreciate the efforts each person has made here and the extremely substantive posts you've all made throughout, we've really or I have anyway, gotten a lot out of this.

SierraRose, a good point on the irresponsible nature of "Walking, " it's extremely long, and I have not finished it, but here is some of it and as a walker I agree with the nature part of it:

Here is the first part of "Walking" by Henry David Thoreau from Bartleby.com

Walking [1862]

Henry David Thoreau

I WISH to speak a word for Nature, for absolute freedom and wildness, as contrasted with a freedom and culture merely civil,—to regard man as an inhabitant, or a part and parcel of Nature, rather than a member of society. I wish to make an extreme statement, if so I may make an emphatic one, for there are enough champions of civilization: the minister and the school committee and every one of you will take care of that.

I have met with but one or two persons in the course of my life who understood the art of Walking, that is, of taking walks,—who had a genius, so to speak, for sauntering: which word is beautifully derived from “idle people who roved about the country, in the Middle Ages, and asked charity, under pretence of going à la Sainte Terre,” to the Holy Land, till the children exclaimed, “There goes a Sainte-Terrer,” a Saunterer, a Holy-Lander. They who never go to the Holy Land in their walks, as they pretend, are indeed mere idlers and vagabonds; but they who do go there are saunterers in the good sense, such as I mean. Some, however, would derive the word form sans terre, without land or a home, which, therefore, in the good sense, will mean, having no particular home, but equally at home everywhere. For this is the secret of successful sauntering. He who sits still in a house all the time may be the greatest vagrant of all; but the saunterer, in the good sense, is no more vagrant than the meandering river, which is all the while sedulously seeking the shortest course to the sea. But I prefer the first, which, indeed, is the most probable derivation. For every walk is a sort of crusade, preached by some Peter the Hermit in us, to go forth and reconquer this Holy Land from the hands of the Infidels.

It is true, we are but faint-hearted crusaders, even the walkers, nowadays, who undertake no persevering, never-ending enterprises. Our expeditions are but tours, and come round again at evening to the old hearth-side from which we set out. Half the walk is but retracing our steps. We should go forth on the shortest walk, perchance, in the spirit of undying adventure, never to return—prepared to send back our embalmed hearts only as relics to our desolate kingdoms. If you are ready to leave father and mother, and brother and sister, and wife and child and friends, and never see them again—if you have paid your debts, and made your will, and settled all your affairs, and are a free man, then you are ready for a walk.

To come down to my own experience, my companion and I, for I sometimes have a companion, take pleasure in fancying ourselves knights of a new, or rather an old, order—not Equestrians or Chevaliers, not Ritters or riders, but Walkers, a still more ancient and honourable class, I trust. The chivalric and heroic spirit which once belonged to the Rider seems now to reside in, or perchance to have subsided into, the Walker,—not the Knight, but Walker, Errant. He is a sort of fourth estate, outside of Church and State and People.

We have felt that we almost alone hereabouts practised this noble art; though, to tell the truth, at least, if their own assertions are to be received, most of my townsmen would fain walk sometimes, as I do, but they cannot. No wealth can buy the requisite leisure, freedom, and independence which are the capital in this profession. It comes only by the grace of God. It requires a direct dispensation from Heaven to become a walker. You must be born into the family of the Walkers. Ambulator nascitur, non fit. Some of my townsmen, it is true, can remember and have described to me some walks which they took ten years ago, in which they were so blessed as to lose themselves for half an hour in the woods; but I know very well that they have confined themselves to the highway ever since, whatever pretensions they may make to belong to this select class. No doubt they were elevated for a moment as by the reminiscence of a previous state of existence, when even they were foresters and outlaws.

“When he came to grene wode,
In a mery mornynge,
There he herde the notes small
Of byrdes mery syngynge.

“It is ferre gone, sayd Robyn,
That I was last here;
Me lyste a lytell for to shote
At the donne dere.”

I think that I cannot preserve my health and spirits, unless I spend four hours a day at least,—and it is commonly more than that,—sauntering through the woods and over the hills and fields, absolutely free from all worldly engagements.

….continued on Bartleby.

I like to walk, too, and so far I like this essay on the surface, but I have not read the whole of it! The difference in an emotional pull of a piece and the reality perhaps of what the author is saying, the POINT of the question on Literary Analysis or Criticism in the heading !!!!!

I am also thinking that McCourt is EXTREMELY well read, just look at all of the references he's made to authors and people and works!! Most of whom/ which I have never heard of. An eclectic and highly educated set of references. I've learned, in this discussion, myself….

His references belie his yarn about his simpleness I think.

More……

Thank you Marni, you are very kind but you should SEE what some are doing in the field, breathtaking!

SierraRose I like the way you addressed THE big last issue of "looking too closely at a book," by taking the arguments and rebuttals, one by one. I especially liked this: "In fact, talking about it is a sort of sharing that enhances the experience and allows insight into other people's minds, how they perceive things in different ways."

That's what we're about here in the Books & Lit of SeniorNet.

However as you and Carolyn explain, and Delphine mentioned earlier, the concept of the "RIGHT ANSWER" is a major problem, and I think is the cause of a lot of people not wanting to dare.

For instance, if there is one poem there can be 100 books of differing scholarly opinion on it, all backed up with research and citations, all different. Sometimes people have the actual author in an interview who then tells what his purpose was, as Carolyn mentioned, and so that becomes and may be presented as the only interpretation. Yet we have seen that quite a few times the author conveyed nothing of the kind to many people. That shows us that the poem comes alive for each person and each person then needs to voice his own interpretation. Some people may be more learned in, say, Eliot than I am, but my own reaction, how the poem resounds to me, so long as I can back up what I'm saying with citations FROM THE ACTUAL WORDS of the poem is valid, too, and I will benefit from hearing each and every scholarly opinion which may then (or may not) add to my knowledge.

Sometimes people are afraid to "look closely," as the looking closely may reveal things THEY don't want to see IN the book. They would like the First Run Through Emotional Reaction to be the one that stays, no matter what the author says.

Sometimes the book is written by an Irish Charmer and they like him generally and would forgive his cannibalism of babies, should it have occurred, hahaha. That's OK too. It's OK to say what you think about a book and /or what you perceive the author to be, after all, you paid your money or took your time, and your impressions are just as valid as anybody else's, and to give your own reactions . As Carolyn said above, "Everyone has a different perspective on a work of art whether it be literature or a painting. As far as I am concerned that is how it should be.."

Just LOOK at what all we've seen and learned here about our fellow readers. And the book. But it takes courage to voice your own opinions because they may be tied to your own values.

But it's not ok to be afraid to try, for whatever excuse. In the last 10 years we have heard all of them, even some sort of reverse snobbism. So it's especially fine to find people who are wiling to take the chance to expose what they see and to learn from others in a dialogue: a two way street, on a book. Nothing finer.

Scrawler, I agree with you, that was odd. Perhaps that's McCourt's somewhat oblique way of saying all authors are not saints? At any rate thank you for that information on Huncke, I had never heard of him, (and after seeing him at the door am not sure I'm going to look up his stuff).

BellaMarie, thank you, and that's a very astute set of observations, and I liked the question you raised and will put it in the heading:

Which part of the book did you think was the best (I guess here we're asking the dread word like) and why?

Good question, the end, while positive, falls apart. Things fall apart.

Dash of this, drab of that.

Babi, I loved this: "It was a liberating day when I first told a friend I had a right to my own likes and dislikes, and didn't have to justify them."

Why, one wonders, does it take us SO LONG in life to come to that and why do some people seem to have that from the outset?

Marni, what an interesting point on the sociological make up of Stuyvesant!

And so now, what is your opinion of Chapter 18 or any last thread or gasp before the curtains are drawn on this book and discussion, I almost feel as if we have been on a stage, ourselves, and I have enjoyed it.

30 years in the NYC high school public school system is a heck of a long time to try to teach, especially something as ephemeral as English or as intangible as "Creative Writing." And every high school English teacher dreams of someday writing the Great American Novel.

He came from apparently nothing to win a Pulitzer Prize, so he DID keep trying and he did succeed.

What feeling do you have now at the end of his third book, that he has about himself? Do you think from what you've read here he is satisfied with what he's done?

"You don't have to respond to every stimulus" What an important life lesson. I guess I always knew I couldn't like the same things everyone else liked, but for a long time I thought I had to explain myself,..apologize for not liking what someone else thought was great. It was a liberating day when I first told a friend I had a right to my own likes and dislikes, and didn't have to justify them."

Yes, exactly. In fact, if we react to every stimulus we can all too easily be manipulated. So it was also a revelation to me that I had no obligation to react just because others did or expected me to react, or to justify why I felt the way I felt. To me, this was probably THE MOST IMPORTANT lesson McCourt taught about freedom of thought in this book.

Good one, SierraRose, I'll put that up too: What is the most important lesson you think McCourt taught in this book?

. . . very interesting, but I do have bones to pick with it, the main one being this: "If you are ready to leave father and mother, and brother and sister, and wife and child and friends, and never see them again—if you have paid your debts, and made your will, and settled all your affairs, and are a free man, then you are ready for a walk."

I like to walk also, usually with my dog, because that's the only way one can really look and see, even the tiny belly plants that go unnoticed by the world. I have left husband and child and friends and have paid my debts and settled my affairs----BUT, there is a price to pay for that sort of freedom and it isn't all it's cracked up to be. it can be lonely, and you'd better be ready for that. The first few years I enjoyed it so much that I had no idea what people meant when they said they were "lonely". But after a while I began to learn, and then I had to rebuild some relationships and once more be "encumbered".

Of course, if Thoreau is talking about a "temporary" state when walking, that's different, but with the above sentence it doesn't sound like it to me. Maybe I'm taking him too literally????? Maybe he just means that a walk after everything is properly taken care of is a wonderful freeing thing. If that's what he's saying, I agree with him.

But I do wonder why McCourt calls Thoreau's essay on walking "chilling"????? Any ideas?

Yeah I did pause on that one, you're right, it's almost Biblical, huh? I need to read the whole thing to see what he's talking about, the "chilling" bit, I've just done the same thing I preach about others doing, not reading closely, and as I said, reacting emotionally instead of paying attention as you and McCourt did, to what the author is actually SAYING.

hahaha

I'll print the buzzard out, it's LONG and come back in. I'll have to think on it.

And I do have your name straight, sheesh@ hahahaha

Back home not quite a week, but still not caught up. What a fantastic discussion this has been, and I'm so sorry to have missed much of it. I'm still reading and rereading these great posts. Please forgive me for jumping in, but need to make a few comments.

First -- from Ginny's post where she comments --
"The two minute rule for parents: "This is nice," she said. "You have time to guzzle beer but you can't spare a minute for a parent who waited half an hour to see you." (page 235).

# What is your opinion of the 2 minute Parent Conference on Open House Night? Whose side are you on here and why? Could McCourt have stayed the length of time it would have taken each parent? "

Definitely on the side of the teacher here. McCourt should have said, ha -- if he dared, "Yes I have time to guzzle. Why didn't you make an appointment to see me during my WORKING day, which is undoubtedly longer than yours."

He may have thought he was a lousy teacher, but I think many would disagree. I found his methods fascinating. The "dinner interogation" -- what a great way to draw students out, to create an awareness that something is happening, they just need to look for it. I'm reminded of some writer who told about her family dinners, where each child was to comment on something they had seen that day. To describe it, to embellish it. Much like FM was attempting with his students.

As I read this book I couldn't help but think and compare FM with one of the teachers I worked with, Mr. L. An English teacher, taught "average" kids. Creative Writing might get a weighted grade, but not his "Writing for Enjoyment," which was much the same thing. His kids wrote obits, they also found paintings in the art books and wrote about them. More than once he came into the library requesting the Ox.Eng.Dict. so he could prove to the principal that "shit" was really a word. He was an enigma to the admin., but they always asked a lot extra of him. He knew which students were sad, who was happy. Finally became an Asst. Principal in the next town over. One of his former students became principal. First year out of college, his daughter was making more than her dad.

Marni, I don't know much about Stuyvesant, but I agree with you that being a selective public school its population probably isn't totally affluent. What I find really interesting is that in the beginning of the book, FM is telling the stories, at the end he's listening to those of the students. If McKee Tech had been his final school, I think he would have been listening there, too.

Re: Chapter 18 --
End of Cpt. 17 -- "Hey Mr. McCourt, you should right a book."

"I'll try."

Off to read Walking, find out why it's chilling.

comment: " I'm reminded of some writer who told about her family dinners, where each child was to comment on something they had seen that day. To describe it, to embellish it."

I attended a parenting class one time in which we were required to think back about our own childhood and the impressions we had of it. One of the more fascinating exercises was one in which we picked particular colors to depict the mood around our dining room table when we were children----in my case it was BLACK for the general mood at the table; BLACK for my father because of his depression and PTSD and quick temper (especially about my not wanting to eat); RED SPARKS for my mother who was angry at my father for many of her own reasons and to defend me and my brother from his quick temper; SHINY GOLD for my grandmother who was my family angel and refuge when things got tough; HOT PINK for my vivid and outrageous auntie who always arrived dressed in the boldest colors she could find, with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes, pockets filled with goodies, and a new handsome dandy hanging from her arm; and dull brown/gray for my brother and myself. Children were to be seen and never heard, no matter what the adults were doing (at the time it bothered me, but thinking back I now realize it also helped my observation skills, and now I sort of agree with it---to a point).

Anyhow, we were to draw a table, round, square, oblong, whatever we remembered, in the color of the general mood, and then draw a circle in the appropriate color for each person sitting around the table. It was quite a revelation.

Anyhow, in my memoir I took that simple drawing and embellished it to describe my family. The memories it brought back were amazing, and the relationships between all the people involved were revealing.

Try it sometime. It will reveal a lot of things to you about your family and your place in it.

By the way, I think that having each child describe something that happened that day and then embellish it is a wonderfully creative exercise. However, I have a daughter who is VERY literal, and she would call the embellishments lying. We differ about that, because I call it creating and learning how to tell stories, and also getting behind the surface layer of whatever experience is being described.

Ginny......What feeling do you have now at the end of his third book, that he has about himself? Do you think from what you've read here he is satisfied with what he's done?

I think I see Frank contemplating and reminiscing back over his years and still not feeling as though he did his best. I think he is accepting what he did is just that and good or bad or indifferent it is what it is. I think when he says to the substitute teacher on pg. 255 "Find what you love and do it. That's what it boils down to. You're on your own in your classroom..........It's hard but you have to make yourself comfortable in the classroom. You have to be selfish........It's you and the kids."

I think that is probably the best advice he could give a substitute teacher. Because at the end of the day, it really is about you and the kids. I see where he was ready to leave.

"It was time to retire, live on the teacher's pension that was less than princely. I'll catch up on the books I missed in the last thirty years. I'll spend hours at the Forty-second Street Library, the place I love most in New York, walk the streets, have a beer at the Lion's Head, talk to Deacy, Duggan, Hamill, learn the guitar and a hundred songs to go with it, take my daughter, Maggie, for dinner in the Village, scribble in my notebook. Something might come. I'll get by."

I see a person who seems contented, he is ready to finally have the time to do all the things he wanted to do. He is looking forward to this next phase of his life.

I can so relate to what he is feeling by the end of this book. I too am at this point in my life. I have finished teaching after fifteen years, I am contemplating the of no longer having my in home day care after nine years, and I am looking forward to the time to do whatever I want to do without the responsibility to answer to anyone. I look forward to finding the time to begin my writing and getting my books published. So as Frank ends his last words, "I'll try." So will I.

Sierrarose, I think that when McCourt talked about the Beat Poets he was trying to get the students to look beyond their own back yards. I'm not sure this came off the way he intended because he really hadn't met any of the Beat Poets. Instead he relied on Huncke for his information and I'm not sure how accurate this information was.

I agree that you should start out by writing about what you know, but than you have to expand yourself into sections that are unknown and that is where research comes into the picture. When I first started my recent writing project I didn't know very much much about the 1800s but after three years of researching I'm beginning to feel and think like someone who has lived in the period of time. [To the point where if I leave the house I wonder where all the carriages and horses are and what are these "zinging" machines racing up and down the highway.] I believe you really have to submerse yourself into what you want to write about. Than after the research you really are ready to write about what you now know.

Like you I use three opposite problems to create my stories - it is sort of like apples and oranges with a banana thrown in for good measure. Conflict is what makes a good story.

I don't think I would have liked the two minute rule for parents in regard to Parent Conferences. Luckily my school never had such conferences. When I was in danger of flunking geometry, my father and I met with the teacher to see what they could do together to help me.

I remember on the way home I was sniffling in the car and my father, who was an engineer working for Lockheed at the time and probably was wondering why a daughter of his couldn't get geometry, told me that in college he had flunked drafting. This made him very human to me just knowing that he had gone through worse than what I was going through made all the difference in the world. By the way I never did "dig" geometry.

yes, I can imagine that a lot of research would put a writer into the right zone to write about almost anything.

Actually, come to think of it, that even happens to a reader who immerses herself in a time or subject for a while. I remember how annoyed my children would get with me when I was reading a lot of romantic novels by Georgette Heyer (the only ones I ever enjoyed), and I'd deliberately use the stilted sort of language that I'd been reading about on them. They were soooooooo embarrassed, and when I discovered that, I began using it whenever they misbehaved in public. It's amazing how quickly they corrected their mischief because they didn't want to be seen with a mom who used freaky language like that. But after reading all of her novels it did come quite naturally.

I couldn't remember it now if my life depended on it, thank goodness.

And yes, I do remember wondering where the horses and carriages were, and why people were wearing jeans instead of dresses made of "lawn", and why we no longer had fancy balls in Bath, and even wondered where the handsome hero (who was also a dandy and always impeccably dressed and knew how to read the heroine's mind) had gone to.

Every once in a while I have immersed myself in a particular subject (these days it's almost always nonfiction) and the same sort of phenomenon has happened, so I think I understand in a small way what you mean.

I also know when I paint I need to thoroughly know the subject I'm painting. If it's a botanical study (my main subject) I have to actually take the flower apart and look at it under a magnifying glass to see exactly how it is constructed before I will commit it to paper, while sketching is more casual and only looks at the surface of things. Lately I haven't had the energy for formal studies and have filled sketch book after sketch book. It's fun, no stress, and forces one to observe. I suppose that could be likened to a writer "scribbling into a notebook", as McCourt says.

I never read any of them, and even if I had I'm sure they would have made no sense to me since I have difficulty with poetry anyway.

But I do remember the beatniks. At the time in So. California they hung around Venice Beach. There were all these little smoky cafes with people dressed all in black sitting around talking poetry and art and listening to jazz (which I didn't understand either). I wanted so much to be part of them; but never did have the courage to do so because my father would have been horrified, even though he was sort of the original beatnik himself running around in black leather jackets on motorcycles before WWII. I have pictures to prove it too.

So to this day I feel I was a "good" girl and missed a lot. Hahahahah

By the way, I loved your description of how Jack London's learned to write. I was quite immersed in his writing for a while, especially his tales of Alaska, which I read in winter while heavy snow was falling outside, so I'd get a bit of the "feel" of it, except that I was totally comfy by my fireside.

SIERRAROSE, I found your 'colorful' description of the family at the dinner table fascinating. (I would love to have known your grandmother.) The choice of colors was so revealing. I immediately found myself recalling a particular scene and ascribing colors to it.

I was also amused at your picking up the language of Georgette Heyer. I find myself doing that, too, when I'm really enjoying a book. More problematical, tho', is that I have always automatically picked up a distinctive accent from people around me. I don't do it deliberately. I became aware of how others might see it when an English lady gave me a stare, and I realized I had fallen into her way of speech. I think she realized, from my startled blush, that I had not been mocking her, but it did serve to make me more careful.

This is only my own tentative opinion, but I think McCourt found Thoreau's attitude chilling because it was so self-centered and careless. Thoreau liked to see himself as needing no one to be content and satisfied with his life. By the same token, he disliked, except under dire necessity, to have anyone else placing expectations and demands on him. As other posters have pointed out, this is not a socially responsible attitude.

Babi

You asked about my son interviewing Frank McCourt.. well he is a journalist and does sometimes interview people. Now that he is back at home I'll ask him about it.

As to "when Irish eyes are smiling"... I remember it well.. my Dad the Irish Tenor, an Orangeman from Ulster sang it often and well...we used to do duets together. However, my boy soprano voice..is not quite as it used to be... if you can stand it..I can produce in Washington ...!!

(I had some bad news on my return from Montreal, one of my dear friends suffered what may have been a stroke Monday morning at the Senior Center and is in intensive care at a local hospital, stable, but worrisome none-the-less)

So please excuse me for the moment. Colkot

I hope your friend makes a good recovery, Colkot. Thankfully, being at the Senior Center she(?) got quick attention, which she might not have had she been home alone.

Babi

Oh Colkot, I'm sorry to read about your friend. I hope she went to the hospital soon enough for good stroke care.

Colkot, I hope your friend is okay. I am looking forward to hearing what your son tells you about his interview with Frank.

Welcome back, Pedln, we are glad to see you again, if you can crack the "chilling" case, please advise, that thing is a course in itself!

Well you can't say our book discussions are not educational! I spent half of yesterday reading Thoreau (that thing is LONG, Friends, it printed out 17 pages of very close print and it's VERY dense reading). I keep trying to finish it but so far no luck but I'm not seeing "chilling," yet.

Are you?

It's not a …(forgive the pun!) walk in the park tho! Hahaha

Then for the Rembrandt discussion I spent the other half of the day reading Milton's Paradise Lost and found to my shock this time I actually understood it?!? That's a first, maybe McCourt is teaching more than we thought! hahahaa

I had to laugh tho as it occurred to me that McCourt is teaching US, who on earth ever heard of Gogarty or Thoreau's Walking? I had heard of Roethke but not that poem, and the War Poets, we've had our own course (should we have chosen to take up his unspoken challenge) in literature here.

The Most Important Lesson McCourt taught in this book!

Hmmmm, that is going to be a struggle, I can hear the wheels literally creaking in the old brain now. Images are flying by but they don't quite seem…they don't quite seem right.

I did like this, Sierra Rose: "Yes, exactly. In fact, if we react to every stimulus we can all too easily be manipulated."

THAT is an interesting observation. I believe that IS my problem, generally, based on the necessity of close reading online, reacting to everything AND not being able to put priorities on anything. You get thrown around like a ball in a box when that happens.

Now Pedln has plumped on the side of the teacher in the 2 Minute Question:

Definitely on the side of the teacher here. McCourt should have said, ha -- if he dared, "Yes I have time to guzzle. Why didn't you make an appointment to see me during my WORKING day, which is undoubtedly longer than yours."

Ok here's my thought: WHY do the schools schedule these things? Our schools used to schedule set periods, that is the parents would recreate the child's day, meeting each teacher, but in small increments of time. That was excellent in allowing the parent to see how far the child walked and the different experiences and personalities he encountered, but the teacher had NO time at all, to talk individually, the bell rang and the new "parent-students" flooded in, private talks were scheduled privately.

Contrast that to McCourt and his having less: 2 minutes? How can you say "hello, I'm XXX, yes Billy is doing quite well, does he ever do any homework, goodbye," syndrome in 2 minutes.

The teacher is stuck, and I am thinking he could not have stayed, the school would have closed, the lights turned off and the doors locked, yet here were all these desperate parents.

In the recreation of the child's day which our schools did, the parents heard the teacher speak on her goals or on the homework, any private conversations would be scheduled at another time. Yet the main wheeze was "the parents don't care and won't come."

You have to ask why they should? And especially in McCourt's case, that 2 minute scenario.

Pedln it sounds like Mr. L was another great and creative teacher! Very much so.

This is a great point Pedln makes: What I find really interesting is that in the beginning of the book, FM is telling the stories, at the end he's listening to those of the students

Yes. Interesting. I wonder if this indicates a change in him or the students being so special? I have a feeling the first set of students had stories, too.

SierraRose fascinating on the colors around the dinner table, now you've got me doing it! hahahaa All the time, actually. hhahaa

BellaMarie, good thoughts on how McCourt seems at the end of the book and you make an auxiliary point in quoting about the 42nd Street Library the place he loves most in the world, in that literature and books have been important influences in McCourt's life, from the first Shakespeare book he purchased until now.

You go, Girl!! Chapter 18 for you!!! I have heard from another member of this discussion, she's going to do the same thing!

Scrawler, I love your immersion in your work and your story of your father's admission of In Edit: drafting: need to get the course right! I think geometry must be for those who can't do any other math, I loved it, but I have never understood and never will, the dreaded Balance Sheet in Accounting. Pedln is good in math, Pedln what does it mean if a person can do geometry and not any other math?

I took a look at the GRE test the other day, they have about 100 sections hahaah on Math, and the third question on the Basic Math part (note I am saying Basic) might as well have been written in Hindu. I read it. I understand English. It was simplicity in the extreme, looked like something a child could do and yet...and yet it might as well have been written in Sanskrit. I simply had no...connection to it, there was a total disconnect. There it was, there I was and I could do nothing. It seemed something was required to be done but I had no earthly idea how to do it, how to go about it or what was wanted, but GEOMETRY now? That's different!

Babi, what an interesting statement:

This is only my own tentative opinion, but I think McCourt found Thoreau's attitude chilling because it was so self-centered and careless. Thoreau liked to see himself as needing no one to be content and satisfied with his life. By the same token, he disliked, except under dire necessity, to have anyone else placing expectations and demands on him. As other posters have pointed out, this is not a socially responsible attitude.

I would have said this described McCourt, actually.

Yes?

No?

Colkot, you're on, a boy tenor rendition of When Irish Eyes are Smiling is on Demand in DC! Hahahaa Looking forward to hearing what your son says, we've had the most remarkable and extraordinary things brought to this discussion!

I am very sorry for your friend but if she had to have a stroke, she appears, as Pat has said to have been in the right place!

They are doing wonders now, let us know!

Well here we are and the colors are fading, before they fade entirely, what is the greatest lesson McCourt has taught in this book? What have you learned about him you did not know? What is chilling about Walking by Thoreau, and any other last minute thoughts you'd care to give?

I really do appreciate your constancy in this discussion, those of you posting and those of you reading. This book has not been easy to discuss, for a lot of reasons, but you did it and you did it splendidly, and each voice has added to the whole impression. I am not sure we missed a thing, did we? If we did, what was it? Let's talk about IT, too.

A shamrock for your thoughts!

I have to say these three words best describe what I felt reading this book. In the beginning the stimulus, I found to be the humor, I was reacting with joy and fun to his first few chapters.

Manipulation......the chapters that he talked about his horrible childhood, his failures, his insecurities, him having to live in Ireland and America feeling out of place in each place...left me with feelings of sadness, compassion, and concern. Yet, as I read on I could see I had allowed myself to be manipulated by his self pity.

Reactions...I was finding myself reacting so negatively when I came to the parts he spoke about slapping Boom Boom, his thoughts of Andrew and all the other inappropriate behavior and thoughts he shared with us. Being a child advocate ages 1 - 21 yrs. of age I found no reason for this behavior or thought process in a person's mind let alone it be a teacher. I reacted to the personal posts...Ginny's story of her teacher, SierraroseCA's childhood story, and the many other beautiful, heartfelt post. I found myself thinking of each of you throughout my days and I found myself wanting to figure out what Frank McCourt was trying to teach through this book if anything. I reacted to his past student's blog and article and then wanted to share it with all of you. But, once I reread his words I could see he was as mixed in his feelings as all of us have been.

Stimulus...Oh did I ever love reading this...."You don't have to respond to every stimulus. If "My Papa's Waltz" leaves you cold, then it leaves you cold."

After I read this I said to myself...Okay now, that means I don't have to like this book if I don't want to. If it leaves me cold, then it leaves me cold. But, it did make me want to know Frank a bit more so I called all around our city looking to rent his movie Angela's Ashes. After watching the movie, seeing him as a child, growing up in Ireland, frolicking with his buddies doing normal childhood things I started reacting once again in a positive way. I watched not only him and his family but I watched the other actors, in the movie that he said portrayed his book so well. Then I came away with feeling, Gosh he didn't have it any better or any worse than most children whether you grow up in the poverty of Ireland in Catholic schools or in the poverty of America in Catholic schools. My childhood was as difficult as Frank's without comparison yet in the movie I saw where his parents loved him, hugged him, said I love you to him. I thought all the hungry stomaches, mocked name calling and harsh teacher discipline in the world couldn't take away the fact he had love shown to him in his home. So my reaction... once again turned to frustration and a bit of anger. I suppose the anger came from a place where my mind stimuli told me.....yes he had a difficult childhood, but......he had all the opportunities in the world to make things better for his adult life, so why all the whining and excuse making? Like someone earlier posted, "Pick up your boot straps, dust them off and go on."

Manipulation...once again in the ending chapters. He wants us to see him finally as a caring, thoughtful, teacher reacting to the sad life experiences of his students. I said earlier, "I am not buying it, it's out of his character to all of a sudden be writing all this physical, personal, caring concern for these students.

Stimulus....Did the students provide this for him in the end? Reactions...Did he finally allow himself to react to the students? Manipulation....Did he finally get manipulated by the sad stories?

Interesting how, yes, he was "the storyteller", in the beginning of the book. In the end, the student's were "the storytellers."

If I learned anything from reading this book I suppose it would be...I allowed myself to remain open for other view points, I allowed myself to discuss similar and different opinions with many of you and was able to respect each of your thoughts and feelings. I was able to let the stimulus, reactions and manipulation enter me and enrich me as a reader, writer, teacher and person. I am not saying I give Frank credit for this so much so as each of your posts and myself. But...without his book that ignited such thought provoking responses I would not have experienced any of this.

I was anxious to begin this group discussion for my first time. I may not have, if the book was not on a subject I could relate to. Being a teacher from an Irish/Italian, Catholic family, and having the poor, horrible childhood I knew I would like to see how Frank McCourt overcame his. I knew I had overcame my childhood many years ago, yet it never leaves you. I would like to think Frank is content in his retirement years. I don't know I would like to read any of his books. I did found this book....sad, exhausting, frustrating, entertaining, humorous, enlightening, and informative. I suppose all the ingredients it takes to be a best seller. Congratulations to you Frank McCourt, you succeeded in doing what you longed to do all your life.................WRITE a book!

Couldn't help thinking about Teacher Man as I read this NYT article about New York City Schools' new head of instruction. I wonder what he would say about FM and what FM would say about him.

An Unfailing Belief in the Power of Teaching

Of all the required literature in the 1960s, Thoreau's and Emerson's writings were most influential. I don't remember reading "Walking" but I did read "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience." In it Thoreau stated:"That government is best which governs least." I've always remembered that statement. It was in the 1960s that the government started to impose various regulations on our lives, so much so that now in the 2006 much of our civil liberties have been taken away from us.

But to me Emerson combined the ideals of "transcendentalism" which is a mixture of German idealism of Kant and English romanticism when he wrote: "So shall we come to look at the world with new eyes. It shall answer the endless inquiry of the intellect - What is truth? and of the affections - What is good? by yielding itself passive to the educated will...Build, therefore your own world..."

Since I have not read "Walking" I cannot comment on it, but based on Thoreau's other writings I would think that he was writing more about the idealism of life rather than practical side of it. When he says: "...when you go out the door for a walk you should be so free, so unencumbered, you need never return to the starting place. You just keep walking because you're free." I believe this to mean that you are free to keep walking in your mind's eye.

Next time you go on a nature walk see if this doesn't happen to you. Your body will return to the point of origin, but your mind will have been influenced by what your various senses have engulfed as you walked. I doubt that you will be the same person you were when you started even if it is only a very small change.

I believe that McCourt was trying to get the students to recognize this new freedom. To look at, as Emerson stated: "the world with new eyes."

17. What is the most important lesson you think McCourt taught in this book? (Sierra Rose)

The most important lesson is to find what you love and do it, make the effort. Frank McCourt used his trial and error method to show us, the readers, what NOT to do in order to find happiness. Also, it is important to look at our ordinary lives as full of purpose and significance.

I have not been part of this discussion other than a comment before the "official" start date.

Reading all the back postings, someone asked me why I had a problem with Frank McCourt as a person.

In "Angela's Ashes", McCourt relates the story of when he was going to an old woman's home to write letters which she dictated to him. One day he arrived and found her dead. He knew where she had a sum of money hidden in her house. McCourt stole the money and used it for his fare to America. So much for the hero with which one could identify.

Having said that, I enjoy his writing, and have read everything he and his brother, Malachy, have published. I prefer the "warts and all" style to the homogenized, pasteurized, self-serving autobiographies that ex-politicians write. Those people try to create a sanitized, plastic image of themselves because they are thinking of their legacy. McCourt doesn't seem to care if we like him, he's just a good writer who knows how to tell a story-"warts and all."

Rich

Rich, I agree. I do love his writing style. I would read anything written by him. I have ANGELA'S ASHES and TIS nearby. I loved all of TEACHER MAN. I feel Frank McCourt would write whether he had a reading public or not. Through trials and tests he came to know the significance of his life.

Rich I agree with you 110%. I'll take Frank McCourt any day over the writings of ex politicos who's books exploit me as a reader because I know the truth about them won't be in the book their name is associated with.

Ginny ~ you ask what is the greatest lesson McCourt has taught in this book?
He has reminded us that all students, actually all people, are able to learn if we expect them to be able to learn.
Coming from a disadvantaged background does not mean a student cannot learn.
FM reminds us that the teacher's expectations affect the student's achievements.
Some, but not all, of the teachers who followed their lesson plans to the letter were thinking more of their own advancement than the welfare of the students.
Many of those parents who were rude and angry about 2-minute sessions have only themselves to blame, not the school system. They could have talked to FM at his convenience; he would not have turned them away.

Yet the main wheeze was "the parents don't care and won't come." You have to ask why they should? And especially in McCourt's case, that 2 minute scenario. . . .

Actually the 2 minute scenario can be helpful if both the parent and teacher look at it in the right way----as incomplete and preliminary. I think the teacher or the parents should be able to request a more comprehensive meeting in private to discuss anything that might be serious or need more in-depth discussion. Most of the time the "open house" type of conferences that I remember were for the purpose of just looking at the classrooms where the child spend his/her time, a quick look at some of the work they did, and have a short discussion with the teacher with a basic outline of a child's progress---with a private meeting arranged at that time for any further discussion. The 2-minute scenario serves that purpose very well.

However, I found that when my children were in school the schools were ALWAYS asking for more parent involvement. But to them that seemed to mean that parents had to agree with whatever they did, no matter how dumb. If a parent got involved because he disagreed, that parent was not welcomed.

I remember several instances of head-butting with the schools, but woe to me when I appeared to say something. The principal "was out of the office" and the vice principal was nowhere to be found. I was persistent, but I've knew a lot of parents who gave up.

I remember one time I received an expensive engraved invitation from my son's high school for parents to come to a wine and cheese tasting party to see the new wall-to-wall carpeting in the school and the new athletic lights. I hit the roof because there were always complaints about not enough books in that very same school, no computers, no money for lab equipment, no money for earth quake updating; so this struck me as very bizarre. Not only were the engraved invitations expensive, but so was the wall-to-wall carpeting which was unsanitary to boot when hundreds of teens are on it that many hours a day, and the athletic lights cost a small fortune when right across the street there was a junior college with a great field and athletic lights that were not used much. It never seemed to occur to these people that some clever scheduling could have solved the problem of sports events with just one set of lights, or that even the wine and cheese were expensive, or that earthquake updating was more important than wall-to-wall carpeting----or teacher's salaries for that matter.

From my experience a lot of money in schools is WASTED because of stupid priorities. Those in power begin to think they deserve all the goodies, and the needs of the children get shunted aside. I've even heard of administrators taking some "retreats" at very expensive resorts because they feel "they need it"---probably to come up with more dumb ideas.

BUT, when I expressed my opinion about all the above, I was considered to be the spoil-sport while everyone was having a good time. So what else is new? No wonder parents don't get involved, and I didn't see many parents there. It mostly consisted of various school administrators congratulating themselves. No wonder even voters don't get involved, because we already know that no matter who is elected, most of the campaign was based on lies, and when they get into office their priorities are not the same as was promised.

Cynical? YOU BET----about some things!

I believe this to mean that you are free to keep walking in your mind's eye

That's an interesting thought, and that is probably what Thoreau meant. BUT, it should have been explained that way to impressionable kids. Of course, we don't know if it was or wasn't, so I can't comment beyond that it "should" have been a fairly heavy discussion beyond what the surface words seemed to say, because the surface words seem irresponsible and even hurtful to other people we ought to love and care for.

And yes, I can understand the mind's eye very well. If I take care of everything that needs doing, pay my bills, answer my phone calls, have order in the house and yard, those are always the times when I feel most FREE and CREATIVE, when walking and observing becomes an intense pleasure. Instead of undone things nagging in the background I actually am free for a short while to pursue anything I want to do, fully and completely. and then keep that pleasure in my mind's eye.

But those are "ideal" circumstances, and life is always throwing us curves that WE HAVE TO HANDLE, things that are unexpected and annoying, or sometimes opportunities that we did not expect which we have to take at high tide or lose, and done things keep getting "undone" and have to be done again---and so my reality of life just doesn't fit Thoreau's reality. I think, a female especially does not have the luxury of what Thoreau seems to advocates---at least not until the children are grown and until retirement.

I have read much of Thoreau and marvel at how unrealistic and idealistic a lot of his words are, although I do enjoy his view of observation of nature and living an extremely simple life as a source of great satisfaction.

However, one of you (can't remember just who it was right now) mentioned how government has gotten more and more intrusive into each of our individual lives, and living a simple life is not as easy as it used to be. Just think of April 15th when taxes are due, and all the rules and regulations and fees you have to pay and the files of papers you have to keep in order to live at all without getting into trouble.

Freedom? Really? What freedom? Where has it gone?

Rich...... "In "Angela's Ashes", McCourt relates the story of when he was going to an old woman's home to write letters which she dictated to him. One day he arrived and found her dead. He knew where she had a sum of money hidden in her house. McCourt stole the money and used it for his fare to America. So much for the hero with which one could identify."

After watching the movie, I had a difficult time with processing this particular act of his. When Frank threw the ledger in the water, I was trying to decide if it was an act to release all the people in the town of owing this old woman money, or was it so no one could trace the horrible letter writing to him? I still am pondering him stealing all that money. It was a very selfish and illegal act on his part. I tried to give it some merit by assuming the old woman gained wealth off of the poor people in the village. Yet, if I am not incorrect, she loaned them money from the money she collected back from them. So....where does that give credit to Frank stealing from a dead woman, so he can come to America? I do know that back in those days many people stole things just to provide for their families. I was told my father would steal railroad ties and lumber to build our house, because we were so poor he could not afford to purchase it. I see that more as basic survival. What Frank did was more self serving. He had a job, he was saving money to make the trip. It just left a bad image in my mind of him and his character.

Yes, "warts and all," is a good description of what he showed us in Angela's Ashes and Teacher Man. I am a person with high moral values, a Christian belief in honoring the commandments, and expecting others to live by the same values. In a perfect world, I suppose that would be possible. Frank throughout this book lived for HIMSELF! In the end he wants the readers to see him as a transformed person, who came to love teaching, care for the students and even show physical affection to them. I would like to think this is true, but as someone said many posts back, a memoir is not an autobiography. A memoir does not have to be factual. I agree, I would not like to have seen Frank write a book on HOW GREAT THOU ART....as many politicians have, as you stated.

Nicely put, "McCourt doesn't seem to care if we like him, he's just a good writer who knows how to tell a story-"warts and all."

I come away with indifferent feelings toward Frank McCourt. I will not read Tis and I am not at all interested in any of his future books should he write more. Not to be insensitive but, I just did not find him leaving me with a feeling of wanting anything more from him.

GINNY, I'll admit McCourt disliked what he considered the artificial demands of many school administrators, and the unrealistic expectations of him, considering he was, by his own admission, 'out of my depth'. He was hardly content and satisfied with his life alone, so that wouldn't apply.

I don't know if I can pick out one most important lesson. I saw more than one worth remembering.

1) He taught his students to observe, to pay attention, to take notice of what was going on around them. So much of our lives seems to drift pass us unnoticed, and then we wonder where the years went.

2) His refusal to give them pat answers. He insisted they think for themselves, and describe what they discovered.

3) "You don't have to respond to every stimulus. If it leaves you cold, it leaves you cold."

4) "You have to find ways of saving your own life."

BABI

Sierrarose, I too am upset at the somewhat odd priorities of schools these days. When my son and daughter went to school in the 1970s, we as parents, had to pay for all the sports equipment, musical instruments, books, paper pens etc. and than just like you they had a fancy night to show off the new decorating schemes they just had installed. The principal's office looked a whole lot better than mine with its mahogany desk etc. I know I had to restrain my husband from choking someone when it since both of us were working at that time just to make ends meet. After all like he said,"he got a better education in a one-room school house than our kids were getting at the time at public school".

"In all my years at Stuvyesant only one parent, a mother, asked if her son was enjoying school... One parent in all those years."

I think this is a very interesting question. When you stop and think about it, shouldn't schools be such that students enjoyed going there. I know that my high school resembled a prison with its gray brick walls, no windows, and barbed wire around the entire school grounds. I never was sure whether the barbed wire was to keep us students in or keep everyone else out. At any rate I think if we want healthy adults we should make our schools pleasant enough for our students to want to learn and study. And yes, I think it is important for students to enjoy what they are doing, but "enjoy" has many meanings and there should be some discipline and responsibility along with that joy the students are feeling.

. . . around your school was interesting to me.

When I went to school all over the planet, including in the State of Ohio for a short time, there were no fences around schools. We were free to leave at lunchtime and go to the nearest hamburger joint, hang out, eat and dance to the jukebox. Even in grammar school we went home for lunch. No passes, no hassles.

However, when we came to California and I started school I was shocked to discover that I was literally a prisoner in school, with high fences all around. There was no "leaving the campus". Apparently that came about for several reasons: (1) Increased violence by students who spent their free time damaging neighboring property; (2) Parents who sued the school if their kid was hurt while he was supposed to be in school, even if it was lunchtime, thus forcing the schools into a babysitting role.

So they made it easy on themselves. They put fences all around and we were not allowed to leave until school was out. I HATED IT!!!!!

I noticed while I was working that some corporations have done the same thing. They may not put up blatant fences, but they "strongly suggest" that you "not leave the campus" until your workday is over, because of lawsuits that were brought against them by people who may have been at lunch, got hurt even if they had been drinking and driving, and then blamed the company.

So we are slowly losing our freedoms all around, things we used to take for granted. Whatever freedom the government doesn't take away, our work places and other places where we go will take away the rest. At McDonnell-Douglas where my husband worked years ago they even had dogs sniff cars parked in the parking lot to see if there were drugs in the cars. There did not need to be a suspicion or any sort of evidence, and if a dog found something (often a false alarm) people were asked to unlock their cars so the guards could go through all your belongings. You had no rights at all and could not defend yourself. The last time I went to the airport to pick up a friend it was the same sort of scenario, even though I'm a gray-haired lady with blue eyes and had a dog with me.

But much of that is our own fault because we file lawsuits much too freely and irresponsibly, and now with the threat of terrorism we allow more and more personal restrictions by people who are often untrained and downright rude because they have a little bit of power over us and the backing of the government bureaucrats.

I find our whole way of life becoming more and more abhorrent, and yet I can also see both sides of the issue.

. . . even a whole new architecture out there, which began after the Compton riots in L.A. It is called "fortress architecture". The wealthy use it a lot. It means no windows at street level, no benches where people can sit (or loiter), no friendly facades, but plenty of bars on windows and electric fences all around. No sunny glades in parks either where someone could hide in the bushes.

I remember one of our favorite things to do as a family after dinner was to go amble a main thoroughfare and just window shop. But that was some 30-40 years ago and is pretty much a thing of the past, at least where I live, because even department stores have used fortress architecture to protect themselves and malls are locked up at night.

Very sad.

Ginny--I went to (yet another) Barnes and Noble near me and took a look at Teacher Man for about half an hour. I read some from the beginning and some from the end. I was especially interested in McCourt's description of the discussion that followed Roethke's poem, "My Papa's Waltz" because we have used that poem in our departmental placement exam. (We put students in five different levels of English when they are plebes, all the way from what most people would think of as "remedial" to "validators," those who have to take only one semester of English instead of the required two.)

McCourt is spot on in getting the students to "respond" to the poem. They see, one by one, several different ways that the poem points from sinister (child being semi-abused by drunk father) to happy (child remembers those rough dances with pleasure--romped, clinging to his shirt, etc.)

The really neat thing about "My Papa's Waltz" is that when a student is asked to write about it, you see something about what an individual brings to the poem because the harsh and pleasant words in it are about equal in number. In other words, you can read the poem either way based on the language of the poem. Anyway, I was impressed by this small sample of an exercise he used with the students.

My students are always surprised when I don't force meanings on them. This indicates to me that they have been told (as the sister of one of McCourt's students was) that there is one RIGHT way to read this poem. Horsefeathers! Interestingly, it is ambiguity that makes my students uncomfortable. Sometimes they want to be told what the poem means.

There are, however, wrong ways to read a poem, ways that have nothing to do with the poem and a great deal to do with what the reader brings to the poem. These readings are idiosyncratic and are not backed up by evidence from the poem.

Maryal

Thank you Deems for taking that time, oh yes when he was good, he was very very good, and when he was bad, he was…well. Fill in the blanks.

Yes he has his brilliant moments. I enjoyed your take on the Roethke, and appreciate your taking that time. I wish you had been in this discussion!! But I think we've done a super job here, we've touched on everything except the kitchen sink. I am still not thru with the Thoreau, has anybody read it fully and do you see the chilling bits? Maybe he recognized himself.

I am really in tune with Thoreau as far as I read except he walks 4 hours a day in all weather which may or may NOT be an obsession, how old was he when he died?

Thank you for that great article, Pedln! That is a beautiful inspiring thing, too bad we can't ask him what he thinks of McCourt! That's another discussion I guess.

Could be, Scrawler, I'm open to anything at this point about the Thoreau. Haahaha

Hats, good points (where have you BEEN?) on the most important lesson: find what you love and do it. I liked your bit about looking at our lives as full of purpose and significance, did you get that from him or is that you? I like it, whoever.

Rich, I had forgotten that incident, thank you, where have YOU been hahaaha, but you do make a good point, about the warts and all. Is there a limit to the warts, do you think, one should peel back? I sometimes find myself thinking along the lines of BellaMarie in that I believe I see some manipulation here, too.

Warts being placed very carefully with a lot of caveats around and such.

Thank you Delphine that's three votes for McCourt no matter what he writes. I'm going to vote in the opposite camp, we don't usually talk about this type of thing but let's do, it's in the last days.

WE have three votes FOR McCourt no matter what he writes and one no.

Rich
Hats
Delphine: yes whatever he writes

Ginny: no, I've really had enough. There are a lot more people in this world doing things I'd like to read about than him.

Who is next?

Lots of good points Mippy, thank you. I liked your thoughts about the teacher's expectations.

SierraRose, good perspectives, and wow on the wine and cheese, and the carpets, you have to wonder sometimes. I think your description of the purpose of the open house is a good one and I think maybe McCourt's administrators were nuts to try to squeeze so many parents into such a short time.

Nuts.

Babi those are also excellent lessons, I keep trying to think of a lesson that McCourt taught in the book, I am not sure if that instruction includes us or not. If we mean instruction to the students I like yours, you all have come up with some good ones.

I have to admit that the man leaves me cold. We're here in the last days, and so we can talk about LIKE. I am wondering if the Greatest Lesson he's teaching here is that if you have charm you can get away with anything, you can write anything, and people will read it.

Scrawler a good point about "enjoying" school. What would cause a student TO enjoy school? Here again maybe McCourt is making us think. Would he enjoy school if he did no work, brought a jambox, played poker in class and had no homework?

??

SierraRose, it's good to remember how much schools and teaching have changed. I just saw in a local newspaper talking about a local school district the words a Safe Learning Environment. You'd not have seen that 20 years ago.

So times have changed but human nature has not. Where would you list McCourt here on the last day or so, in your personal lists of Inspiring People?

Those of you who have read the entire book, where would you put him?

Ginny ~
I don't find McCourt to be inspiring. The book was too clearly written to make money, IMHO. Whether or not he was a good teacher, I would not choose to read more books by him ... well, probably not, unless his book was chosen to be a SeniorNet discussion, which is another level of inspiration, indeed.

Even though I didn't participate as much as I should have, I did enjoy reading all the posts by
the many SeniorNetters!

Ginny, while Frank McCourt teaches the Creative Writing class, I think he begins to see every bit of his life as important. For example, Frank McCourt says every decision a person makes is a story. To me that translates as every moment of our lives is full of meaning. Every decision, whether you are a writer or not, is important and has consequences.

I don't find McCourt to be inspiring. The book was too clearly written to make money, IMHO

I couldn't agree more, Mippy. After reading the first five chapters, I took it to be sold at the used bookstore, and was glad that I got it used myself to begin with. I think the man's a buffoon, to tell you the truth.And when I saw this described as " a book every teacher should read", my stomach turned.

Here's something written on amazon that sums up my opinion pretty succinctly:

5 of 13 people found the following review helpful:

Teacher Man: Dull, Repetitive, and Blarney-filled, March 21, 2006 Reviewer: Lady Deadlock "Steph" (Northern Ohio) - See all my reviews First, I am glad that at 75, Frank McCourt is alive and well and enjoying the fruits of his success. He's living the life that countless poor pedagogues could only dream of. McCourt poured his heart and badly damaged soul into Angela's Ashes and produced an award-winning, international best-selling masterpiece--much to his surprise. He anticipated sales of a few hundred copies, if he were lucky.

Unfortunately, makers of masterpieces sometimes find they have reached the limits of their abilities with that one finest example of their art. This must be the case with McCourt. Teacher Man is no masterpiece. It is dull, repetitive, and blatantly padded with blarney. Nowhere does he suggest that the teaching profession ever attracted him. Instead, as he describes his daily grind in the classroom, he gives off putrid wisps of the fetid classroom air he inhabited for over thirty years. McCourt apparently neither knows or cares about the experiences of others who have written--much more engagingly and challengingly than he has done--of the difficulties of inspiring students in moribund educational institutions. He offers no insights into why most of our schools are miserable. Instead he churns up from his scrap heap of memories dusty stories of boring encounters between himself, his students, and his supervisors. He leaves this reader with an image of a dusty, whisky-soaked whiner who slept through four years of teachers' college. That he chose to enter the profession and stay for thirty years because he lacked the energy or insight to do anything else is not enough reason to expect us to buy his book.

But, as the night follows day, we can expect another book soon. Evidently Frank is sitting on a pile of memory scraps in order to eke out more books for the Christmas trade. In his acknowledgments he tantalizes us by thanking the Savoy Hotel in London for a three-month pampering in a river suite. I think there is a story there, of a miraculous transfer from those damp and smelly bogs of Limerick in his miserable childhood.

Man, I wish I'd said all that first!

"March 18,1997 Angela's Ashes wins book award:.. byline Corky Siemaszko

FrankMcCourt the former Stuyvesant High School teacher who made a splash with his memoir Angela's Ashes yesterday won one of the nation's most prestigious literary awards. McCourt's bittersweet memoir about growing up in the soggy slums of Limerick Ireland won the biography & autobiography category at the National Book Critics Circle awards. A first-time author at age 66 MCCourt's memoir has topped best seller lists and won critical acclaim. It has gone through several pressings since it was published last fall by Scribner. McCourt who lives near Gramercy Park expressed surprise in a recent interview to find himself the toast of the publishing world.

""Just to be able to publish a book..to get a Library of Congress catalogue number, that was my ambition" he said. "I thought it'd be a few weeks in the fall and then I'd retire into my well-deserved obscurity.""

This was the quote from the interview....in 1997...... Colkot

SierraRose, Sprawler, did anyone go complain to the school board about parents having to pay for school equipment while the principal was redecorating his office with school funds? Sounds like a legitimate complaint to me.

Babi

WE have three votes FOR McCourt no matter what he writes and one no.

Rich Hats Delphine: yes whatever he writes

Ginny: no, I've really had enough. There are a lot more people in this world doing things I'd like to read about than him.

Who is next?

Ginny you missed my NAY vote. I said posts back,I was not at all interested in reading Tis and since I watched the movie Angela's Ashes I have no desire to read the book. I am not at all interested in any future books, since like I said earlier,this book did not leave me wanting more of anything he has to write about his life. I would rather read a sappy Danielle Steel love novel then torture myself with another Frank McCourt book about his horrible life.

I seriously think his life was no worse than many and sounds much better than mine,if I dare say. I have been writing Children's books for nine years now and am in the process of having one published. I want to bring, joy, laughter and fun to my readers. I want to hope the parents and grandparents will buy my book to share with their children and grandchildren for generations to come. NOOOO...they will never know about my horrible childhood.

I agree with the article CathieS provided for us, "Teacher Man: Dull, Repetitive, and Blarney-filled." Yes, Cathy .....Buffoon is one word I would use to describe Frank in Teacher Man...

This article actually looks like repeats of our posts.

I really think we have exhausted ourselves, as Ginny said, "covering everything except the kitchen sink"...lolol

You all made so many excellent strong points and posted with passion about everything that this book triggered off in your mind. We are coming up on post 500 and I think we will hit that before the week is up.

I kept my mouth shut till the end of the discussion. At the outset, I did post that I didn't like it but haven't breathed a word since. Personally, I don't appreciate people who continually post negative stuff day after day so I didn't do that because I don't think I have the right to spoil it for others. JMHO..... Now that it's near over though, I was going to voice my opinion. LOL

And yes "whiskey- soaked" is right. I'll say no more.

If you take a look at the interview quote that my son did with FMC a couple of posts back...it really sums it all up. When I referred to Irish angst( a strong feeling of anxiety oflife in general) he cannot let it go. So..I've lived a life which could be compared to his..but that's water under the bridge.. if you've survived WW2 etc.. you can survive anything. Put it aside, build on the experiences and use them in a positive way..Be happy..live life.. Someone said somewhere, the past has gone, today is an adventure and tomorrow is a surprise waiting to happen. I honestly believe that. . With FMC it's always the same old, same old with him..how boring!

Colkot

. . . blarney. I read mostly nonfiction, and so when I finally pick up another type of book (in this case a memoir) I enjoy the blarney. It's kinda like having meat and potatoes for months, and every once in a while you want a soufflee(sp?). If I wanted a book to learn about teaching I would not pick this book, but would find myself a good text on the subject. So I think the blurb on the cover about every educator and congressman having to read this book is hype.

I don't think McCourt had anything seriously valuable to say about teaching, but as a memoir he was honest, warts and all, with the funny parts in between, and I enjoyed it as a light read. His life was whatever it was, and there is no harm in looking back at it and getting it out of his system. He did that with his story telling. I also will not sit in judgment of him about the negative things he did, since every one of us has done negative things. They were just different negative things and would look just as bad if they were out there on paper for the world to see. He laid them right out there, and that takes guts.

I'm sure if he were writing a book aimed at children it wouldn't contain his Irish angst and would all be happy, but he wasn't aiming this one at children. He was telling adults about his life AS IT WAS in a MEMOIR that happened to cover his years as a teacher, and of course, to have a coherent story, one has to not only decide what to put in, but also what to leave out. If that's manipulation, so be it. I think it's just a human limitation, and one of the traps of trying to write a memoir or an autobiography.

Would I read another one of his books? Depends on the mood I was in. If I had my fill of serious nonfiction books and his next book promised to make me laugh and the timing was right, yes, I'd read another one. He is a great story teller, and in the end, whether one likes the subject being told about or not, that is the aim of writing, isn't it? To tell a story.

I also think my life was much more traumatic and much harder than his was, but so what? It's my job to talk or not talk about my own life, not his. He can only tell that with which he is familiar, and his life was hard enough and, I think, interesting. He has also done something positive with his past experiences by writing and getting published. So he's actually way ahead of most of us on the positive side.

I'm glad McCourt found his niche in life and that he has his numbers in the Library of Congress. I hope he is finally as happy as I am.

. . . about the way the schools spend money. A BIG RESOUNDING YES, YES, YES!!! I complained loud and clear and, like I said, was dismissed as not knowing what I was talking about, since they were the ones with the titles and salaries and degrees and were too busy congratulating themselves about putting another one over on the taxpayers (of course, they didn't say this openly).

It's a good thing I have a lot of confidence in my own common sense, because people like that are so into their own agenda and justify their decisions so vehemently that you might begin to question yourself after they get through with you. That's probably exactly why most parents don't get involved, and I can't say that I blame them.

Over here even the poorest schools have nice grounds. Shady trees, lawns and flower beds. Each classroom has its own garden outside the classroom door. All primary schools ( elementary schools are one level buildings done in blocks) Some children have no nice surroundings at home. At least they can come to school and bask in order and beauty. I do think it makes a difference to a childs mood to have lovely surroundings.

I live close to two schools. The school my children went to has all these large tables set outdoors with large wooden sun umbrellas over them. The umbrellas are brightly coloured - it looks so good.

Carolyn

When I first read this book I laughed and, golly, did I need a good laugh; to me it was hilarious and for days and days another person, who recently had read the book, and I would yell to each other YO MAN! and laugh. I loved his wit, his humor, but I paid little attention to his teaching methods.

It was light reading for me and I didn't take him very seriously; in fact I thought he was making a lot of it up to sell the book and I still think so.

I read nonfiction also, as Sierrarose posted. Biographies, autobiographies, memoirs, history; seldom do I read a novel and I liked FM's book for that reason and I did not read it as a textbook on teaching.

I have no opinion as to whether he was a good teacher - as I said earlier I would have enjoyed sitting in his classrom, he was innovative, fun - he was "cool" as the kids say today. Would I have learned English or Creative WRiting or whatever else he taught? I don't know and at this stage of my life I could care less. I was taught to diagram sentences - all those meaningless lines going off in all directions, pointing down this way and that, boring, boring us all in class and I have yet to use that knowledge.

Obviously, due to the awards that FM has received there are many that appreciate his books. I have not read any other and I do not intend to; this one is enough. There are too many good books that are just waiting for me at the library. At the moment I am confined to large print as I am awaiting cataract surgery - I can't wait to get good eyesight again as the LP books are scarce.

THANK YOU, GINNY, YOU ARE WONDERFUL IN OPENING OUR EYES TO SO MANY FACETS OF BOOKS WE MAY NOT HAVE GLEANED FOR OURSELVES. AND YOUR WIT AND YOUR HUMOR COULD STAND UP TO A FRANK MCCOURT ANY TIME - HINT???

LIKEWISE TO ALL WHO POSTED. I LOVED READING THEM ALL AND DO I NEED TO SAY AGAIN HOW MUCH I APPRECIATE SENIORNET'S DISCUSSIONS!

As I sit here wondering if FM could have taught me creative writing, I doubt if that is ever taught in a classroom? Have studies been made as to whether the classical authors were ever taught to write or was it something they had in them to do - and I also wonder seriously if most of them did not depend on their editors to correct all their grammatical errors.

Sometime ago, (years ago?), I read a book about Maxwell Perkins (I think?). I'm on shaky grounds here but he was editor of Hemingway and Fitzgerald and this book contained his letters to both of them and also their letters to him. How wonderful he was - a mentor - one that cared about his authors and gave such excellent advice and I'm sure he did all the tough stuff such as the editing, grammar, etc. He even lent Fitzgerald money from time to time to keep him going and wrote Hemingway asking if he could not help Fitzgerald.

Were either Hemingway or Fitzgerald taught creative writing? Did they go to college and what did they major in?

Over the years I've read many memoirs by or about authors; Eugene O'Neil comes to mind - he was drunk most of the time and depressed, a terrible person. I wouldn't have sat is a classroom listening to him!

Just a few thoughts!

It depends on our nature what impression our childhoods made. Mine was nowhere as deprived as Franks but dreadfully stressful. It set me up with lifelong anxiety problems. From my memory of Angelas ashes the parents were pretty poor at the job and that is not meaning the poverty. The father was inadequate and an alcoholic and the mother chronically depressed. That can do lots of damage to a child. You don't need to bash a child to cause damage. A life of constant stress in childhood sets the child up with both mental and physical problems. The constant release of stress hormones causes physical damage in a human being.

Carolyn

I am still a 'yes' vote. I read the book to enjoy it and get a glimpse into Irish life as seen through his eyes and the eyes of others he uses as background. It doesn't matter to me if he spins the blarney, I enjoy the blarney. I too had a very traumatic childhood but not because of my parents but from outsiders. If I had been in his classroom would I have considered it 'creative writing' yes but not for the same reasons anyone would say it was not. Some of my reasons would be that using his own experiences he was able to put down on paper all of his warts, sins and failures. For me, that is true creative writing because he did and is able to tell it like it is and not like we'd like to hear it was. I wish more authors who write about their lives would tell it like it is--warts and all.

I read books for a lot of reasons. Some just to have a good laugh, some to learn something and others to quell the aloneness of the night. I read Jan Karon to help me believe that there are still good people in the world. I read James Patterson because there are not. I read James Michener to see what it could have been like in Poland, Hawaii, Texas or maybe find an explanation to the bible in Source. I read Charm School and still find it the best book on spies that has ever been written and find so many parallels in that book to the cells that are set up around the world to bring down the world.

Books have been my life and salvation since I was a little girl. Analyzing them has never been my goal but reading as many as I can has always been my passion. I have never 'not' finished a book no matter how bad it is but some were so bad that while reading them they were thrown up against the wall so many times that they were in really bad condition by the time I was finished with them.

SierraroseCA....Since so much of your post seemed to be directed at my prior post, I would like to respectfully reply to these:

"but as a memoir he was honest,"

No one knows for certain if he was "honest"....I see much embellishment. I do recall an earlier post saying, that a memoir does not have to be factual. And, that's okay because most readers are intelligent enough to see through it.

"I also will not sit in judgment of him about the negative things he did, since every one of us has done negative things. They were just different negative things and would look just as bad if they were out there on paper for the world to see."

Any writer who decides to have their book published is open for critiquing. I don't see that as any of us sitting in judgment of him. This is a forum for open discussion and differences of opinions as to the book, man and teacher. We are all responding and reacting to the questions presented to us. That is what makes this so lively.

I personally do not have the "different negative things" that would look just as bad if I were to put them on paper. Stealing from a dead woman, striking students, thinking harmful thoughts of hurting students, adultery, are not just "negative things", the law and others see some of his acts illegal and abusive. And he was fired for some.

"I'm sure if he were writing a book aimed at children it wouldn't contain his Irish angst and would all be happy, but he wasn't aiming this one at children."

It was clear to everyone he was not writing to children. I did not infer he was, I said, "I" am writing Children's books and am aiming at parents, grandparents, children and grandchildren."

If that's manipulation, so be it. I think it's just a human limitation, and one of the traps of trying to write a memoir or an autobiography."

Yes, I agree and I believe there is some degree of manipulation in life at different levels of writing and speaking. These posts are perfect examples.

"I also think my life was much more traumatic and much harder than his was, but so what? It's my job to talk or not talk about my own life, not his."

If and when, you should decide to write about it as he did, I would expect you would welcome the differences of opinions from your readers.

"He has also done something positive with his past experiences by writing and getting published."

Yes, he has and I think we have all given him much credit in our posts and congratulate him for his accomplishments.

"So he's actually way ahead of most of us on the positive side."

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I would like to think most of our group has much positive sides to be acknowledged in their lives for. Awards, titles, fame and fortune does not put him ahead of others. I see mothers who chose to stay at home and raise a family, mothers who go out into the work force and juggle their schedules, fathers who coach little league, husbands who bring home flowers for no special occasion, wives who prepare a dinner, married couples who have weathered 5, 10, 15, 25, 50 yrs of marriage, a child with cerabal palsy running in the special Olympics, a child drawing a picture at preschool, and just your plain ordinary decent human being living a good life .............ahead on the positive side.

Frank McCourt managed to write his books, but from what I see they have more negative then positive material.....so I don't see him ahead of most of us on the positive side.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Remember, we were here to discuss, debate, and critique this book. If we all decided it was a light read and not try to go deeper there would be no need for this forum. Ginny did an excellent job in posting the questions to encourage us to go deeper, to look beyond the light read. None of us were expecting or wanting this to be a lesson on how to teach, or a perfectly written happy book. I was excited to see how so many posts went in so many different directions. I was amazed how people were able to relate to this book and share their own personal trials and tribulations they experienced in their lives. I did not see this as a means to compare our lives to Frank's and say mine was harder .....so what? I think we all were compelled to admit times where we could see we have been able to overcome the negative things in our lives and wondered why Frank didn't.

DON"T SHOOT THE CRITICS.....that is what this forum is for and I am sure Frank himself would welcome each of our posts and be happy to see how his book generated so many diverse opinions. That in itself would answer Ginny's question.....Where would I put him up there if I would as someone who inspired me? I would have to say, I give him a 5 on a scale of one to ten.

SierraroseCA, I think you are a wonderful, creative, intelligent and artistic person from what you have shown us in your posts you have written. A writer does just that, they show who they are from the words they write. Frank is responsible for how I see him and what feelings I come away with. All the posts enlightened me but in the end........He was the one with pen in hand for all the world to see. Just like a movie critic.....his readers shall decide, warts and all.

(when I returned from Montreal) that the tongue in cheek post about When Irish Eyes are Smiling didn't register. I'll take the shamrock bet... This song was one of many Irish ditties my father (Billy Mack the Irish Tenor) sang, Together with my boy soprano voice, we often made it a duet. Washington DC OK with you?

I really enjoyed the discussions on this book, it's amazing to me, how often these trigger memories I had filed and put away. Colkot

Like Sierrarose, I also complained about the expenses we had to pay out for schooling. They told me that the "principal's furniture" came from a different funding than the fund for "books, supplies etc." When I indicated that I would no longer pay for these things until they got their priorities straight, my children were cut from orchestra and football. When I asked my children why this happened they won't tell me. They just said they were tired of sports and music which I knew wasn't true. Years later they informed that the principal told them that they were cut because their parents refused to pay out of pocket expenses for books etc. I asked them why they didn't tell me at the time and they both told me that they understood how hard we were working just to make ends meet. We had always been honest with our kids, telling them what we spent etc. We both felt the sooner they realized what things cost the better it would be for them in the future.

I don't think there is a right or wrong way to analyze a poem. I'm a poet and I am influenced to write poetry for many different reasons. I'm always taken back a few steps when people tell what they think my poem means and when they tell me I realize I wasn't even thinking about "that" at the time I wrote the poem, but when I think about it they have made a legitimate point.

To me poetry is a "snapshot" about life - a moment of life is caught for a split second unlike a story which to me is like a moving picture. Just like anything in life EVERYONE sees a poem from their own point of view. So no I don't think you can analyze a poem just by what the teacher says it should be. Poems mean different things to different people at different times. For example I get a different meaning now when I read a certain poem than when I got when I read it 18.

They may all have a grain of similarity in them that touches all people, but underneath depending who you are your analyze will be be different from the person next to you. If you were a witness to say an accident you would probably find that you and the person standing next to you would see that same accident differently. So it is true with all creative works. Not just poems, but also paintings and stories.

Scrawler, I write poetry too and have since I was a child. Over the years I have let people read it from time to time but only a few understood what I was trying to say. Like you Scrawler, I write to calm my soul and what my words mean to me more often than not mean something entirely different to the reader. I am a very private person, very much an introvert personally. You would not recognize my public face if compared to my private face. My poetry lays the doors wide open and I am not willing to let people know that much about me. I appreciate Frank McCourt because he is willing to do it and I am not. I have had people ask me to write something about them and I do not do that with serious poetry but I might do it in a lyric fun way if pressed. My sixth sense is so aligned with the inner person that it is an invasion of privacy. I have trained my self to look away and sometimes their inner pain is so great that I cannot and I work with them in the quietness of their soul and mine.

Poetry, I believe, is one place where you cannot stop what is in your soul from coming to the surface to face the world.

Delphine, your post is so beautiful. I am sure your poetry is quite wonderful too.

I find Frank McCourt interesting and complex. He willingly takes a big step, whether for money or not, and revealed his shortcomings, his flaws. He tells about his inability to connect to students. He tells about times when his temper flew out of control. He shows the bumpy, unattractive side of himself. This is what I like about the book. It takes courage to show our unmasked selves.

I always think about what it must feel like to be a student from another country. How must it feel to be a teacher from another country? Reading Frank McCourt's book I feel the adjustment is just as difficult and painful for a teacher.

. . . addressing you personally in my last post. I was not. I merely expressed how I felt about the book, and I took all that was said into consideration and disagreed with some of it. That does not mean I was trying to convince anyone else of my way of seeing it. Far from it. But just as you have your feelings about McCourt, in conjunction with the various things you have read here, so do I. I found it was a light read, funny in parts, blarney in some parts, and an interesting overview of the N.Y. school system from the point of view of an immigrant---and that's all I expected and all I got. I guess I also feel that books like this need not be over-analyzed as to meaning. Fluff usually has not much deeper meaning, at least to me, and I'm fine with that. But I do like the way books like this trigger experiences of various people into all sorts of interesting sidelines, and we did that.

However, I did find your point of view and all of your posts very interesting and thoughtfully presented. You obviously think very deeply about things.

The other thing with me is that I do have a soft spot for immigrants. I feel McCourt not only had a difficult childhood, but then he came to a country in which he struggled with the social rules which were different from his origin. In his case he had to do it twice, from America to Ireland, then from Ireland back to America---not an easy thing to do, especially at certain provocative ages. I know about that, and never did get the hang of all of the social rules (most of which are unspoken) even to this day. But one can't go back either, because America has expanded our thinking to a point where going back would be impossible. So you often feel that you are living between two worlds and can't quite see where you fit. I don't blame him for being a bit impatient with the spoiled American kids he was teaching, who seem to value nothing very much except defiance, because it all comes so easy compared to people in many other parts of the world. Of course, when you raise children who are 100% American (like I did and like he did) you begin to understand these things better, see it reflected in them and you begin to realize that they can't possibly feel the same way about certain things because of their life of ease in comparison---and you forgive them because there are other compensations, such as the yen for freedom and individuality and even the ingenuity in solving problems in the most clever ways.

Living between two worlds used to bother me a lot in my younger years, but it doesn't anymore, and I certainly hope McCourt has also come to that point in his life where he is just happy and contented with WHATEVER IS and wherever he is and is just himself with gusto.

I also wish you the very best with your publishing attempts. I'm sure whatever you write will be wonderful.

I am solidly in the class that very much enjoyed and appreciated this book. To me, McCourt is a gifted writer. We have laughed, gotten angry, felt touched more than once by one student or another. He has made us think, made us remember, given us ample material for debate. The man has more depth than, perhaps, some of us have realized. I must award him: ****

GINNY, you have been a marvel, keeping up with all the contributions to this very animated discussion, while keeping us alert with more and yet more questions to be considered. You deserve a bow, a rest, and a nice cup of tea. (Or the beverage of your preference.) Thank you for all of it.

Babi

Babi, I love your gold stars. I don't know how to make those stars. If I did know how to make gold stars, I would give him stars too.

HATS, it's really easy, but when I try to put an example in a post, it comes out with the finished product and the necessary opening and closing disappear. Look in the SN menu, for the classes giving instructions on computer skills. You can find out how to do a number of things there.

BAbi

Babi, thank you! I will try it.

Excuse you for what? I had to re-write my first post as it wouldn't do what I wanted. When I posted the re-written version, I found my post and yours! Talk about simultaneous transmission!

Babi

"If and when, you should decide to write about it as he did, I would expect you would welcome the differences of opinions from your readers."

Well, that's exactly why I would never write about my life for public consumption as McCourt did, because I would NOT appreciate the differences of opinion from readers. I suppose in a way I'm like Delphine about that. It was MY life, things happened that those who were not there really have no right to comment on, because in writing only the highlights are spoken, and history and feelings and emotions and other connections are usually left out by necessity. I don't think we can ever really know about another person's life even if told fairly openly, like McCourt did, and we have to give them the benefit of the doubt that what they say is at least true in the way it affected them at the time, and take it at face value.

And like I said somewhere way way back at the beginning, I can understand why a soldier who has been in combat refuses to speak about it---ever---except perhaps to comrades in arms, because there is no way he would want to hear platitudes from people who have not had that experience, or denial, or comparison, or being told you are full of blarney and exaggerating, or a cruel joke cracked, nor do you want sympathy, because at the time you simply did what you had to do. So you keep it between yourself and God, the ONE who knows, and maybe your family for the sake of posterity. If he told anyone I would think the best thing to do would be to say nothing at all and just squeeze his hand, or cry with him, because the truth is, we don't know and can't know; we can just feel the pain and have empathy.

I would never have the sort of courage to lay myself open so totally as McCourt did, nor do I necessarily feel it is a good thing to do even though it seems to be very prevalent today and all too often used as entertainment. I cannot imagine my life being used by others as entertainment. I will leave my memoirs to my family, and they can comment all they want after I'm gone, but I don't care to hear the commentary now, even from them.

But that's just my sort of cranky hermitized opinion, and others have the right to feel however they feel.

SIERRAROSE, your point is well taken. It is so hard to know what to do when someone else shares experiences and pain that you know you cannot begin to understand as they do. Most often, the best you can do is simply be there, and let them know you care about their pain.

Babi

SieeraroseCA.....Thank you for the clarity, and the kind words.

I am touched by how many poets, writers and artistic people were in our group. I too am a published poet, I have two poems that were chosen to be placed in Anthologies in the International Library of Congress of Poetry, one was written the day of 911 while I sat and mourned the loss of our people and security that day. The other is simply my wandering mind to visit so many places while rocking my grand daughter to sleep for her nap.

I agree poetry shows the soul of the writer. You can mask in writing a book in certain ways, but with poetry it comes straight from a place that is so vulnerable, it is so personal you are afraid to share it at times for fear of being seen so intimate.

I wish all of you great, wonderful talented writers and artists the best of wishes with your tasks. Whether you share your talents with the world or cherish them and treasure them in your private place, its a gift you will have throughout your life.

Continue to express yourself in any form of beauty possible. Yes, Ginny kooodooos to YOU, our dear friend. I can't wait til our next book.

Marie

. . . lays bare the soul almost like no other art form. Therefore one has to be very careful to whom it is shown, and if one shares it one has to be prepared for pain in a way---if the reaction is negative or trite. But as a poet you have bared your soul, which is a gift that the world is often careless about. A gift can be received with understanding, or it can be carelessly set aside. I would think it would be a lot like a combat soldier---the potential for being hurt is enormous.

I usually don't show my poems to anyone unless they are so old that the original feeling when I wrote it is no longer there. At that point I no longer care how others receive it.

But those that are fresh are those I keep to myself.

All people are different. Maybe some people are chosen to open their lives to people. It takes an amount of strength to tell all to family or people unknown to us. Memoir writing is like teaching, only in a different way.

Writing a memoir is like a sanctified calling or like going to cofession but along with the priest, the whole parish is listening. I don't think the choice to write a memoir comes lightly for most people.

Whenever a person reveals their inner heart, they deserve respect. These people have chosen to stand emotionally naked before other people not knowing whether people will laugh, cry, become angry, lack forgiveness for their bad choices. I guess vulnerability is the memoir writer's strength.

It is because some had courage to bare their souls we have such awareness of issues like incest and sexual abuse. Those who spoke out have encouraged others to come forward and to confront their abusers. Once we had a society full of family secrets. Very damaging secrets in some cases. I applaud those who have made us think about unpleasant things but issues which must be addressed to make us a better society.

Carolyn

Carolyn, that's so true. I think our society is more open than in past times. People lived distressed lives in earlier times. Those stresses just stayed hidden in the closet. If people were more open, so many lives could have been changed or helped in some way.

Some reformers refused to allow social ills to remain hidden. Then, people were helped.

It has often been through literature that we have been forced to confront social ills. I think of Charles Dickens who brought the plight of the poor right in the face of English society. Things did begin to change because of his novels.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I thought of him too. Also, Dorothea Dix, Jane Addams.

. . . some to bare their souls. What I don't like is when this baring is used as a form of entertainment instead of lessons to be learned. And I agree that it is a special calling, which, like many combat soldiers, I simply don't feel I have.

But McCourt had it, and I do respect him for it, especially for all the warts that he confessed and which we all have even though ours may be in different places. Sometimes we aren't even aware that we have them until we look back and see they were there all the time. That's where a memoir can be helpful---a good true look at ourselves as we really were. I think McCourt did that. If he added some blarney to bring the point home, that's OK with me. If the book became popular and much read, well, that's a happy side benefit, but I don't think it was his primary purpose---at least it wasn't with Angela's Ashes, even though there may have been some opporunism in this book. But that's OK with me too.

I don't mind self-revelation when it is used to improve the plight of human beings. I resent it very much when it is used solely as entertainment even by those who have suffered it, because it makes everything trivial and makes the audience insenstive and calloused to where even the most tragic things become food for irreverent laughter. No different from the Roman circus except that the medium used today is books, radio and TV instead of an arena.

I think those live TV shows which bring us the worst side of human nature are sick. Writing an autobiography or a factual book bringing in ones own experiences on a topic such as sexual abuse or alcoholism is a different and more dignified way of helping others than those awful TV shows with titles like "She slept with her sisters husband".

Oprah had some very good topics and very good real life situations on her shows. They were helpful and inspirational. Her shows were done tastefully and with only good intention.

Such interesting comments here on the Memoir. I think that the Memoir…is it new as a genre? Where is Deems? We have Captain Bligh's account of the mutiny and his steering the boat how many miles to shore, but that's not a "memoir."

MEMOIR as a genre is all the rage now. How old a genre IS it?

I am not sure that just because a person decides to expose his thoughts or experiences in writing that he is any more worthy of respect than those who don't. I think, it's my own opinion, that as in everything else, and McCourt quoted it first, open your mouth and you tell me who you are.

People who are positive thinking and respectful anyway are going to find something to respect in any memoir, but having read Mary Karr's, I can tell you flatly that not everybody who writes of warts is a frog deserving to be kissed. We've read some horrific memoirs here, this one is not among them, but I don't see any particular "guts" needed to write it, at all.

DOES "the memoir" put a burden on the reader then? Does it demand from the reader respect when none is deserved? Does the reader then become the actual "sinner" if you will, the person wrong because they say, oh gee, I don't agree with slapping children, you slipped just a tad there? I am nor sure how the reader's "forgiveness" enters into this at all, what a fascinating line of thought you've brought up.

I don't think reading a memoir places any burden on the reader whatsoever, we're not priests and this is not a confessional, we're just reacting.

(Do you realize we're talking about moral imperatives which he brought up early on in the book?!?)

What changes do you think this book has brought about? Carolyn spoke of the ills of society being righted by courageous writers, what ills here have we seen other than those in McCourt himself ( which some of us are trying valiantly to overlook, dismiss, or treat with magnanimity, lest WE seem unforgiving?) which this book has exposed which are being changed or need changing?

??

The reader of fiction or non fiction or essay or poetry is entitled to whatever he thinks, without putting himself in need of a confessional, I think.

The one thing I loved about this discussion, was not the book, not the author, but how we, even tho sometimes totally disagreeing on the author, the subject matter, and the book, had such a great discussion, and we did? We did.

Chapter 18: Did.

Hahahaaa

Thank you all for this fine and really insightful discussion. I have learned a lot, and from him .I am still not finished Thoreau but I will, I don't have any judgments on him as a person whatsoever, go in peace, but I also don't admire him either, except in his command of arcane works of literature which I have not read.

BellaMarie, no I saw your thoughts but since you expressed them right before the Vote Question was asked, I did not want to presume on your vote.

Thank you Mippy for your final thoughts also. I liked your qualifying "unless it was chosen by SN Books!" hahahaa

Hats, beautiful posts and points of view as always, thank you for your take on " every decision a person makes is a story," I thought something completely different! Hahaaa, I did not see that, we should have used that sentence as a litmus test, love it.

Cathie, welcome back and thank you for that review, you gave it 5 chapters? Hahahaa

Well our NO group is growing here, but let's see if it balances out, in real life everything is a Balance Sheet, right?

So glad to have you back!!

Other than the….unfortunate…. Mary Karr I don't think we have EVER …had a book we've had so much division on. Well maybe the Drabble but that was not a memoir.

Thank you Colkot for your son's interview!! We've left no stone unturned here!

Hahahah BellaMarie, we've had the kitchen sink too, I think! Hahahaa

Colkot, I like that saying about tomorrow is a surprise waiting to happen!! Yes the WWII generation has really been thru a lot. I am definitely looking for that song in DC!!

SierraRose, good points on what the book is, and is not.

Ella, so glad to see you here again and thank you very much. So you think that he was making a lot of it up! And you are usually pretty astute, I wonder if you are correct.

I hope your cataract surgery goes as well as the others have for those in our Books, you'll have Eagle Eyes! You'll be Eagle Eyed Ella! Haahahah EEE! Hahahaa

That's an excellent question on whether "the classical authors were ever taught to write or was it something they had in them to do."

I don't know if a lot of editors correct grammatical errors but I have seen two proofs, one from a very famous author, in my life and one was almost illiterate, so I expect so!!!

I don't know about Hemingway and Faulkner, I know nothing about either, to speak of, except Faulkner lived with his mother or close to her all his days, or something, very attached.

Good point Carolyn on the effects of stress on children

Delphine, I am not sure I want to read about everybody's warts! I did like your reasons for reading books tho. Gosh do you really throw them against the WALL? I have several books I have not finished, life is too short, I think, to plow thru a piece of junk.

BellaMarie, I agree, I think we've given him quite a bit of credit while at the same time, displaying (if you will) our own warts in response. If warts are good enough for a frog and a Memoirist, then we should not mind them in a discussion.

Warts R Us. Thank you for the nice remarks.

Scrawler, good point on artistic creation, and how we all see things quite differently, another wonderful result of our discussions here.

I have often wondered, myself, Hats, what it must feel like to come to a foreign country to live, I have always thought that took great determination, have spent many hours trying to figure out how I would personally have managed, it takes a LOT.

Babi I like your gold stars!!!! Thank you for the very nice comments, I'll take the tea in the form of a Diet Pepsi only if you all join me, let's seque to the porch and have some lemonade in the shade and some scones!

Stars.. Hmmm. You'd use an asterisk and make colors so I'll try: for the discussion (not Mr. McCourt) *****

Let's see how that does.

Oh good point SierraRose on why those in combat often refuse to talk about it. I like your cranky hermitized opinions!!

BellaMarie gets Five Stars for Predicting 500 posts and then our making it, I am amazed because when I first read what she said I thought no way! She also gets 5 stars for her first ever book discussion with us here, I sure hope it's not her last!! You too, Edith Anne!!

Yes this is a very accomplished group, well represented in experiences and geography, too. Thank you for your kind words.

Well, now the curtain is drawing closed, and we need a nice Irish song of parting. We can't sing Danny Boy because for some reason it makes me cry, what's another good parting song of Ireland we might sing here as we go on our way??

Are we, like the Wedding Guest in the Rime of the Ancient Mariner, changed? Are we sadder or wiser for this experience?

Here's a song, it's very old, it SEEMS (but is not) Irish, as I'm typing the words I can hear the melody, do you know it?

A PERFECT DAY (1909)

Words and Music by Carrie Jacobs-Bond (1862-1946)

When you come to the end of a perfect day,
And you sit alone with your thought,
While the chimes ring out with a carol gay,
For the joy that the day has brought,
Do you think what the end of a perfect day
Can mean to tired heart,
When the sun goes down with a flaming ray,
And the dear hearts have to part?
Well, this is the end of a perfect day,
Near the end of a journey, too,
But it leaves a thought that is big and strong,
With a wish that is kind and true.
For mem'ry has painted this perfect day
With colors that never fade,
And we find at the end of a perfect day,
The soul of a friend we've made.

Sing Along With "A Perfect Day"

Carrie Jacobs Bond is more widely known for her song "I Love You Truly."

I do like a discussion where everybody has a different opinion!!!

It's a perfect day when that happens, many thanks to all of you!

"DOES "the memoir" put a burden on the reader then?"

My response would be "NO", in the same way that McCord said one does not have to react to every stimulus. You get involved or you are left cold. There is no right or wrong.

Regarding not every frog who writes a memoir deserves a kiss, ain't that the truth?

I also want to say thank you for leading this discussion into such wondrous paths. And thank you for valuing all opinions. You are sooooooooo good at making that clear. And opinions, after all, are only what they are, and each of us has a right to our own. We can share them and hope a chord is struck in someone else, but it isn't necessary or even always desirable.

But I have learned much from this group, and I must tell you that one of the reasons I shared my particular memory with you all was because I felt it would be well received. Let's just call it intuition, since I don't share those things with everyone because I've learned better from past experience. So you are all very special.

Thanks all. GREAT discussion and I enjoyed every one of your words and thoughts, even though I'm still not sure this particular book deserved all of those brilliant thoughts. It did, however, serve as a good starting point, along with Ginny's encouragement.

Sierra - I think the Books people are very special and very accepting. Hope you will join in more of our discussions. This one has been fun. I have enjoyed hearing all points of view.

Carolyn

I have been out of town and not here for a week and boy, did I miss some 168 great posts??? Yes, I did and I am trying to go back to July 19th and read a few all day today. Maybe I will catch up and maybe not.

What I have brought here today is a small quote from Woman's Day magazine (Sept 2006 issue) which just blew me away as it fits here so well.

From a short article about favorite teachers, where, TV stars were quoted, comes this by Matthew Perry of "Friends". And I am paraphrasing here. "I didn't do all that well in school but if they had had a class in "Class Clown" I would have aced that one. My favorite teacher was a "substitute" in my English Lit class who had us reading "Hamlet". He required that we write a suicide note after reading the play. My first time to be introspective. It was quite a revelation to me. I will never forget him."

Do you suppose he was FM's class at Stuyvesant?? Might be!

Ginny, I love your beautiful green shamrock. I have enjoyed the discussion. As always, you have been a delightful hostess. All of the posts are wonderful, made my mind open up and think hard.

Babi, thank you for your help. Here are stars for Ginny, you and the whole group. Cross your fingers.

*****

Talking about memoirs reminded me of James Frey. His book is one of Oprah's past picks. I did not read it. For some reason, at the time, I had no interest in the book. I do remember the controversy about whether parts or the whole fabric of his life had been made up. If James Frey's memoir became, during writing, more fiction than truth, why did he do it? Not for fame, fame could have been gained through writing a novel. What makes a writer of a memoir lose his integrity and choose to pad it with untruths?

James Frey

My memory is not very good. If I chose to write a memoir, I would not call it a memoir. I would call it a novel simply because so much of what happened long ago is now blurred in my head. With that thought, is it possible for anybody to write a totally truthful autobiography or memoir?

As Far as Frank McCourt in TEACHER MAN, I just believe he tried to do his best.

Ginny. I certainly don't want to top your summary of everything and the wonderful song you have posted.... Coming to another country even though you think you speak the language is absolutely devastating. The feeling of alienation,of not fitting in, or making the "wrong" move or decision.(this is a feeling shared by most of us) Even though one becomes a citizen there are times when you still feel like an alien! (the posts on old time radio are one example) But here we have the luxury of being who we are without shame as this is a country of immigrants. I love my adopted country and could never live anywhere else. Oh, and by the way...do you all realise that your posts here have been teaching us ALL something....once a teacher....

Your grateful student....Colkot

I watched the DVD DANCING AT LUGHNASA this week. I enjoyed it very much. For some reason, it seemed like a memoir.

Dancing at Lughnasa

Ginny, thank you very much for the song too. It just tops the discussion off.

Kiwi Lady #509....It is because some had courage to bare their souls we have such awareness of issues like incest and sexual abuse. Those who spoke out have encouraged others to come forward and to confront their abusers. Once we had a society full of family secrets. Very damaging secrets in some cases. I applaud those who have made us think about unpleasant things but issues which must be addressed to make us a better society.

Kiwi you are so right about this...if Frank McCourt's Teacher Man taught us but only one thing(yet I am sure there were more)..........it was that we were all sensitive, aware and willing to discuss "the warts" or shall we say the abuse, we sensed going on in the classroom, and it triggered other abuse in other areas.

The only way to STOP any form of abuse is to talk about it, acknowledge it, lable it, and report it. Kids today are being taught its OKAY to say an adult hurt them in any way whether it be physical, mental or emotional. We are becoming a society that are willing to listen and hear and whether we can see a mark on the outside or not. Children are learning they have a voice, something many of us were not allowed growing up...Remember.....Kids are to be seen and not heard.

I know this book was NOT a teaching book, it was not a tell all, it was not about ABUSE, it was not about all is warts, and yes it was a memoir and a well written one. I am so glad to see we had a group that did go deeper and did see it for all it was worth and not just about a man who taught in a classroom, with a horrible childhood and misplaced from moving around.

I would also like to encourage all you writers, poets and artistic people to continue on your course, and don't be afraid to share it with the world when you are ready. If all the famous painters, writers and poets kept their beautiful work to themselves for fear of critics we would not be appreciating books like this, or we would not be appreciating the Picassos, the Edgar Allen Poes or the Emily Dickensons of the world.

Nothing like running at the end of the pack, but can't resist a few comments.

First, this has been a fascinating discussion, and I'm sorry I missed so much of it. Re: the vote -- I'll vote for it. He didn't inspire me, it was merely a good read, an interesting topic. I didn't read it to judge him. The parts I liked best were his stories about his students, and the examples of his lesson plans -- the excuses for the famous, the recipes, the dinner interrogation.

He may write more. From my Missouri Teacher Retiree News -- Teachers are a hardy bunch. Of 34,000 retirees, almost 1000 are over age 90, and 71 are over 100.

Hats, -- what a terrific site -- Dancing at the L. It's apparently a take-home exam from an English Lit class at a Swedish University. Wow! Not an easy assignment. I've bookmarked it for when I watch this film. And aren't you wise for viewing now, during this discussion.

Ginny, many thanks. This was excellent, as are all the discussions you lead, and wonderfully energetic.

And how nice to "see" new "voices" here. So glad to meet you, please come back.

I think at the end of the third book he writes as if he really found something he could enjoy doing. I don't know that he is satisfied with what he is doing, but he seems to be accomplishing more of what he wants to do than what he told us about at the beginning of the book.

To me this book was written not to prove any points, but for entertainment purposes. Throughout the book I had the feeling that this was a "formula" written book for the express purpose of selling the book. Memoirs are not as popular today as they were a few years ago except if the writer is writing about something disasterous in their lives. The public seems to flock to books which have a "titillating" theme to them.

I personally prefer to read biographies or histories in order to get a more accurate picture of a particular person but also a particular time period. Memoirs although they appear to be similar to biographies tend exploit the emotional side of the person whom the book is being written about rather than the factual side of the person. Memoirs at best are written from a "selective memory" and can't really be held accountable one way or the other.

Although I have enjoyed McCourt's storytelling ability, I doubt that I would spend money on any of his other books. But if Senior Net were to have another discussion on one of his books, I probably would be apart of it not for the book or the author, but because I have such a grand time in our discussions. You all really make it all worth while.

As far as finding a lesson in this book, I don't see where there really was any important lessons. It was a very entertaining book and from time to time I was able to glimpse back to my high school years and reflect upon them. This was one of the reasons I wanted to read this book. Also, since I came from similar ethnic background that the author and some of the students were from I was curious to read what McCourt had to say about it.

In the end it was an entertaining read, but it was a better read because of our discussions. Thanks one and all.

Very well put ...Scrawler, I too would read another of his books if it were for our group discussion. Can you imagine it??

My favorite teacher...oh yes indeed, there WAS one... died in October 2002 aged 93...One of my schoolgirl friends and I had the opportunity to visit with her in Norwich, England in 1996...and we were able to tell her how much she had meant to us growing up during WW2. We both lost our husbands within 6 months of one another. I was also privileged to write her "in memoriam" for the Alumnae magazine which was published in Autumn 2003.

Teachers DO have an impact on children..and it might not be academic..it might be some kind of understanding or even a role model to follow. Colkot

GINNY, thanks for "The End of A Perfect Day". It's a great old song.

On the comments about a more open society and a more honest approach, you all might find this news item interesting:

STAND

Babi

I had some many wonderful teachers growing up. I remember one of my son's teachers telling me that every so often, if you are lucky, you'll have a student that you can see when the light turns on in their mind. She called me the day my son's light turned on. He was in the fifth grade. He was always a serious student but that day he put it all together. That was the way it was when I was teaching--you see a change on their face and you know they have caught the bug to life-long learning. Through my children I have had to confront the worst of teachers and those with the most mediocre minds supported by administrations that care nothing about what students learn but about new buildings and themselves.

The teachers I liked the most were the ones that challenged me to think outside the box and like Emily Dickinson said, 'the realm of possibilities' which has always been one of my favorite quotes. One son spent his junior year being taught by the principle because his assigned teacher would not allow him to transfer from her creative writing class to another teacher's creative writing class. The 'administration' supported the teacher who refused to let him write outside the box when he could have been in a class where the teacher did allow it.

When all else failed with the school's administration I would go to the local newspapers and they would print my letters to the editor questioning the responsibility of teachers to teach and schools to provide students with an education. The school boards and school administrations would say to me, 'Well Mrs _____ we know how you feel but' and I would say to them, 'No you do not know how I feel' and the public when reading the letters would gather around me and support my position. My husband hated it when I made waves and he unfortunately always sided with the administration because he didn't want me to make waves. In the end though my children supported me and their friends and the parents of their friends respected me for taking a position they were afraid to take.

I missed being a part of a lot of it, because of being in the hospital, but i have been reading all of your postings. YOu've been a terrific group.

My favorite teacher was a college professor who really changed my life by telling me how smart he tho't i was and that i COULD do what he was encouraging me to do - become a history professor. Only one other person has ever encouraged me in quite the same way. He was not my "professor," but was my supervisor for my student teaching semester, and he told me i was a natural teacher and fought for the "A" he wished to give me in opposition to the supervising teacher who wanted to give me a B+. So both of the people who "propped up" my self-esteem in my life were educators. It has prompted me thru out my life to tell people when they have done a good job, or when i see skills and talents that i think should be enhanced, we never know what small comment may be the one that sends someone on their way to new heights......jean

Ginny: Thank you so much for leading this stimulating discussion. So many participants! I enjoyed the book very much - had wanted to read it because I had enjoyed Angela's Ashes so much - so moving and so terribly sad, but what a story. I really loved reading the classroom anecdotes in Teacher Man. It certainly got us thinking about our own experiences.

I tried to find Tis in the library last week, but all the copies were out. I'll read it yet.

Thanks again, Ginny. You put a lot of work into the discussion and we appreciate it so much!

Marni

Marni - I did not enjoy Tis as much as Angelas Ashes. It was a disappointment to me.

Carolyn

Hi, Carolyn. I'll probably read it anyway just to try it. Some people didn't like Teacher Man and I enjoyed it, so who knows?

Hi Ginny, Echoing everyone's sentiments thanks for a great discussion. Some posts I agreed with every word and others disagreed with almost every word.( Sounds like I had no thoughts of my own.) I enjoyed the book thoroughly. I have read all three books and would most certainly read any others FM would write. To me he had a different goal with each book and applaud him for his success financially and otherwise.

Well it’s time to raise a last glass, I guess, to Frank McCourt for providing the basis, and our readers for providing the substance, of such a fabulous discussion!

I’d like to thank you ALL, all 52 of you, for each of your comments throughout the discussion, and for your recent ones, since I last posted: EllH, (very proud of that In-Service mention!), SierraRose, Carolyn, Ann, Hats (great stars!), Colkot, very kind of you, BellaMarie, Pedln, Scrawler, Babi, Delphine, Mabel, (Jean) you are very kind.

I would like for you all to know I do appreciate every kind word and comment, they mean a lot.

Now it’s time to exit our Irish experience properly with a true old Irish ballad of Farewell:

The Parting Glass

From: http://www.contemplator.com/ireland/pglass.html

William Cole lists this as an Irish song. It was well known in both Ireland and Scotland. Before Auld Lange Syne, this song was the most popular parting song in Scotland. It appears in Herd's Scots Songs and in the Scots Musical Museum (1803/4). It was printed on broadsides as early as 1770* and saw a resurgence of popularity in the late 1800s. Several copies of these broadsides can be found at the Bodleian Library.

The tune appears as early as the 1600s - in the Skene Manuscript and in the Guthrie Manuscript (c 1675). It is also in Playford's Original Scots Tunes (1700).**

The song is also known as Good Night and Joy Be With You All. Sam Henry collected The Parting Glass in Ireland in 1938. In Folksongs of Britain and Ireland, Peter Kennedy relates it to the Manx song Te Traa Goll Thie (It's Time to Go Home).

The Parting Glass
Sing Along with The Parting Glass!

Of all the money e'er I had,
I spent it in good company.
And all the harm I've ever done,
Alas! it was to none but me.
And all I've done for want of wit
To mem'ry now I can't recall
So fill to me the parting glass
Good night and joy be with you all

Oh, all the comrades e'er I had,
They're sorry for my going away,
And all the sweethearts e'er I had,
They'd wish me one more day to stay,
But since it falls unto my lot,
That I should rise and you should not,
I gently rise and softly call,
That I should go and you should not,
Good night and joy be with you all.

If I had money enough to spend,
And leisure time to sit awhile,
There is a fair maid in this town,
That sorely has my heart beguiled.
Her rosy cheeks and ruby lips,
I own she has my heart in thrall,
Then fill to me the parting glass,
Good night and joy be with you all.

Thank you for making this such a memorable book discussion!

This discussion is now Read Only, please join us in any of our upcoming discussions here in SeniorNet’s Books & Literature sections!