We have several folks that have stated an interest in reading and discussing this book - if you are, please let us know. It's quite a book!! I've never read one of such courage on the part of these women who signed up as nurses in the Army and Navy during peacetime because they wanted adventure and a way out of their small towns.

Ella, several years ago I read a book written by a Brigadier General form the British nursing corps who described her experiences as a prisoner of the Japenese. This one sounds just as horrendous. The nurses had a very bad time of it. There were rapes, beatings and an acute shortage of food. At first they were able to buy bits of food from the locals but this eventual dried up as the soldiers took more and more control. We owe a debt of gratitude to all those who gave their lives and their youth to fight for freedom.

HELLO, MARG! - Glad you stopped by. Yes, it was horrendous, no doubt, this is similar to that book you described. Where was the nurse captured that you read about?

I had never heard about these nurses - 99 army and navy nurses caught up in the battle of Bataan and Corregidor in the Philippines. It's a touching story, one that touches your heart and mind.

Are you going to discuss the book with us? Please feel welcome. I have put a partial explanation of the title of this book in the heading above. A more detailed explanation is given by the author in the book.

I have always been fascinated by ordinary people caught in the trap of history who fight to maintain life and dignity. This story is certainly about that. It sometimes seems life is stranger than fiction. Ella, I can't tell you much about that other book about the British nursing sister. I did a search at for it but can't find it. Sorry.

I will definitely stay for the discussion.

Oh, good Marg - it should be an interesting discussion. Ann and I both got our books at the Library, although I bought a copy to give to my daughter who is a nurse. As the author said somewhere in the book, nurses have immediate rapport and her army reserve medical unit was activated in the Gulf War - quite an experience for us all!

Yes, your question - where did they find their strength? They probably would find that difficult to answer also, but after you read the book there are some factors that made it possible.

Well, I am awaiting my copy of the book. Ella will deliver hers to me as the library had me on a long waiting list.

Has anyone here seen the movie "A Town Called Alice" which is also about a band of nurses captured in the Pacific. Good movie, about 15 years old but still available at the movie rental stores. Brian Brown is the lead man and he is from Australia and the story eventually centers on Australia. Its worth renting.

Ann - is the movie based on fact?

When you mentioned Australia I remembered in the book that several of the nurses were bitter over General MacArthur leaving his troops and running off to Australia where he received a medal for bravery. It was shortly before the troops surrendered to the Japanese if I remember correctly. Now there is a question in my mind as to whether he was ordered to do so by President Truman?

It will have to wait until our discussion as I finished the book a couple of days ago and my brain cannot hold all the details.

Ella: The Japanese landed troops on Luzon on Dec 22,1941. MacArthur knew that the U.S.garrison could not defeat the Japanese,so he began gathering men and supplies for a retreat into the Bataan peninsula and the island fortress of Corregidor.

The retreat forced 80,000 American & Filipino troops plus another 25,000 civilian refugees into the peninsula and they were terribly under-supplied and fell victim to scurvy,beri-beri,malaria and dysentery.

FDR knew that the garrison was doomed and he ordered MacArthur to depart for Australia. On March 12,1942,the general and his family and personal staff were evacuated from Corregidor in 4 PT Boats.( According to some reports they were lucky to make it). General Jonathan Wainwright was left in command.

There was much "home-front" politicking involved in this matter. MacArthur was much admired by many political friends and there was talk of him running against FDR in 1944..Also,if MacArthur had been allowed to stay and be captured, it would have been a huge propaganda coup for the Japanese which would have had a terrible effect on U.S. morale in those dark days...so as a face-saving measure-and as a prophylaxis against backlash from MacArthur's many political friends...on the same order that evacuated MacArthur from the Philippines he was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor.

In his diaries,Eisenhower wrote"Corregidor surrendered last night (May 6,1942).Poor Wainwright! He did the fighting...MacArthur got such glory as the public could find.MacArthur's tirades,to which I so often listened to in Manila,would now sound as silly to the public as they then did to us.But he's a hero! Yah."

Thank you, Ed - it was an order from FDR then - it told all about this in the book and the nurses were caught, along with all the soldiers and civilians, on the Bataan Pennisula where they fought under Wainwright ("Skinny" he was called) until the surrender.

But there is so much more to this story and I don't want to get into it all until we start reading this excellent story.

ED - CAN YOU JOIN US? It's guaranteed to keep you awake and interested!

Another view of army nurses in the Pacific in WWII is in "The Princess Lily of the Ryokos" by Jo Nobiko Martin.

It is a fictionalized version of her experiences as a Japanese nurses aid recruited from a girl's school on OKinawa and depicts her experiences and those of Japanese Army nurses during the batt;e for Okinawa.

Unlike the relative happy ending to We band of Angels, many of the Japanese nurses were killed in a cave at the end of the war.

I thought there were some movies based on this story and sure enough, the author mentions them in the middle of the book. I remember being enamoured with the nurses of WWII since I had two cousins studying for their nursing diploma and intending to join the ANC which one of them did in 1943.

Isn't there a memorial dedicated to the women who were in the war? Our aunt attended a ceremony in D.C. where the nurses were commended for their service. I will have to question her daughter about her mother's participation in that ceremony. This book is quite well written and well documented,too. What a job!

ANN - There is a picture of the nurses with the monument toward the end of the book. I don't have the book in front of me or I would tell you what page. I remember getting all choked up by the picture of these elderly nurses saluting their fallen comrades in a cemetery.

I'll get the book and put in chapters to read and some questions to think about today or tomorrow.

This is such a great book that it may be hard to discuss it chapter by chapter, although page-by-page would be somewhat slow, but I think I could do that!

Does everyone interested have their book? Or have had it? And remember it? And thought it was an excellent book? Had you ever heard of these nurses before?

To get us started, I made the note (for some reason which I can't remember now, but I must have thought it important at the time) that the bombing of the Phillipines by the Japanese started on December 8, 1941 and the US Army surrendered its forces there on May 6, 1942. We have a time frame here of about 6 months - six months in the lives of these nurses (and their patients) that was never forgotten by them or by historians when they talk of WWII.

Does anyone know why MacArthur or the powers that were on the island on December 7, 1941 did not order the planes to be removed or hidden under a canopy of that jungle - if that was possible? Couldn't they have taken an hour or so out of their "pampered lives" and gotten together for a meeting about their defenses in case of an air raid over the islands? I read that part over several times and there was no explanation of why, after hearing of the bombing of Pearl Harbor at dawn, Dec.7th, those orders were not given. Certainly the generals knew that the Phillipines were a likely target and could be reached from the mainland of Japan - whereas, Hawaii could not ! They had that whole day and night to get those planes off the field before 8:19 a.m. the next day, Dec. 8th, when the first raid started.

I'm not sure of the exact wording in this book, but the Japanese pilots flying over the airfields and seeing all those planes sitting there, must have thought they were in a candy store, and I can imagine their glee at firing at such wonderful targets, (can't you imagine them yelling at each other - I'll take those 5 to the left - you can have those 5 to the right, and laughing about how easy it was) knowing that no longer would they have to worry about that defense in attacking the Phillipines.

Doesn't it strike you as the worst kind of carelessness? I'm going to ask some of those veterans who are discussing THE GOOD WAR to come speculate as to why - after Pearl Harbor - those planes were left just sitting there.

Here's one other quote that tells of the "attitude" problem that the commanders had:

Even as MacArthur's command staff worked on a plan to defend Manila from attack, his officers joked about "fighting a war and a hangover at the same time (pg.5).

In the Book "U.S. Army in WWII" by Louis Morton, Chapter III - The Reinforcements of the Phillipines, the state of the aircraft in the islands are summarized as follows:

" The military force in the Islands at the beginning of December, while not as large as MacArthur soon hoped to have, was considerably larger than it had been five months earlier. The air force had been reorganized, modern bombers and fighters had been brought in, and a start made on the creation of a balanced force. The strength of air force troops on 30 November was 5,609, more than double the July strength. The Far East Air Force had more than 250 aircraft, concentrated largely on Luzon. Less than half of these planes were suitable for combat, and much of the equipment was still in ports of embarkation. There were 35 B-17s at Clark Field and 107 P-40s at various fields on Luzon. A primitive aircraft warning system was in operation, and an antiaircraft artillery regiment was stationed at Clark Field. Much remained to be done, but the Philippines could boast a stronger air complement of modern combat aircraft on 7 December than any other base, including Hawaii and Panama."

This same book tells of the naval vessels stationed there, but that is going into too much detail; however I remember reading that someone did have the foresight to camoflauge a ship in the harbor and used it effectively for storage and to make weapons on, as I remember.

Didn't you like the description of "life before war" in the book? I'll just quote you a little as you may have forgotten:

Every morning a houseboy would appear with a newspaper, then over fresh-squeezed papaya juice with a twist of lime, the women would sit and chat about the day ahead, particularly what they planned to do after work; visit a Chinese tailor, perhaps, or take a Spanish class with a private tutor; maybe go for a swim in the phosphorescent waters of the beach club…… There were polo matches, movie theaters, the bowling alley, the golf course…….Across the bay at Fort Mills on Corregidor, …..the sea breezes left the air seven degrees cooler than in the city. Fanned by gentle gusts from the sea, the men and their dates would sit on the veranda of the officers club after dark, staring at the glimmer of the lights from the capital across the bay.

Is it any wonder that any female, on hearing of this paradise, would volunteer to go to the Phillipines?

I got this book out of the library but have just read a few pages. Ella, that was a great post just above.

Larry

Please keep these interesting posts coming. I still am on the reserve list for this book at the library.

If I receive this book after the discussion I will read it anyway. It is of much interest to me. And even more so after your posts.

Thanks Ella....food for thought.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Ella, I'm so frustrated! I've been waiting for weeks for a library copy of this book, and still no call. These are interesting posts, though, and I'll keep on lurking until I've read even a little of the book. I like the explanation for the title, and this is a terrific foreword above! Keep up the good work! I'll be reading the book even if it comes too late. Lorrie

Interesting that the book has received such interest that the libraries can't keep it on the shelf - I think it's just been out a few months. Have you noticed that as we leave the 20th century behind there is a great deal of interest on everyone's part to read and talk about it - as if they just became aware of it? Our Library had 8 copies of it, I believe, and I had to wait awhile until I got mine.

We'll just wait, Fran and Lorrie, for you to get your books. I can't see there's any hurry - Ann's out of town and Ginny would like to get a copy and read it also. That's one reason Seniornet is so wonderful - we can just plan/post things at our leisure! I bought my copy for my daughter, who is a nurse, and Ann bought one also as a present for her sister who is a nurse.

If you have any friends who might be interested (nurses?) it's a good Christmas present!

I got through about the first 20 pages last night covering the initial attacks and the terrible situation in which the nurses suddenly found themselves. From a cushy type assignment to total horror must have been a life changing event. Hard to understand why the planes were left on the runway since they anticipated the attack. Realize they didn't have the sophisticated tracking and communications that are available today.

Larry

Well, I have finished the book and its Ella's library copy. She is perusing the one that she bought for her daughter. I am on the library waiting list, number 13, and haven't heard from them yet. I signed up about 2 weeks ago! Maybe, I can keep hers for awhile but its due back on the 24th.

So, we are waiting for little while before starting this so that everyone has a copy.

I am looking for an audio tape of this for my sister who is a nurse and who's aunt was a WWII nurse. She will love it.

Hi everyne, I`m new to webtv and just learning about everything you can do. This is my first time to view round table or any of the others things to look up on seniornet. I`m very impressed with this, and your probably wondering what this has to do with my title (webtv-reading). The problem is I love to read to, and I dont have as much time now because I`m on the web. I would love to hear from the romance novel readers out there, and just what books your reading and authors. I have to keep a list of mine. But I enjoy reading about books and titles on the web to. Jerelyn

JERELYN!!! WELCOME TO OUR BOOK GROUPS!

We all love books and read and discuss every kind - there is something for everyone here! I'm so happy you found your way to Seniornet.

WebTV is the coming thing isn't it? Wonderful and I hope you enjoy everything here as much as we do!

Just click here to see the ROMANCE discussion that is going on, or you may click on BOOKS AND LITERATURE at the top of this page and see all of book discussions. DO COME BACK OFTEN - WE WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOU!

ROMANCE BOOK DISCUSSION

I read this book some time ago and thought it just wonderful! Interestingly enough I live in Hampton, NH where one of the nurses in the book was from. I believe that our library had but one copy and no one seemed terribly interested when I inquired - and our library has a steady stream of seniors trooping through the doors (me for one). Perhaps the book didn't receive enough press hoopla when it first appeared - a shame because I think it's a tale for all ages - full of universal truths about the human condition and the survivability of many. Although I work full time I plan to look in daily if only to read all of your posts.

Jerelyn, very nice to have you joining us on SeniorNet and in the Books and Literature discussions. If you click on the "Books & Literature" links at either the top or bottom of the screen you will see a listing of all of the current and upcoming books we have in discussion. There are also a large number of general book related discussions. Also if you click on the "RoundTables Index link right under the SeniorNet logo above you will see a detailed listing of the many different discussions and areas of interest here in the RoundTables.

I think all of us well understand your comment about not having as much time to read because of the Internet. Sure know that has impacted my reading time.

Larry

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I do believe there was a movie made many years ago about these same women. If I can recall, I think Veronica Lake was in it (of all people), but I think there was a different ending in the movie. Wasn't the suggestion made that they were killed when the Japanese troops came? Does anybody remember? Lorrie

Gosh, Lorrie - you and I are certainly the same age - we can both remember Veronica Lake. I hadn't thought of her for eons! She, with the hair falling down over one eye - I remember thinking how bothersome that would be to walk around only seeing out of one eye at the same time I was envying that gorgeous blonde hair.

I cannot remember the movies she made, however! If I have time today I'll look through the Internet to see if I can find any references to this movie star - I wonder what years we are talking about here?

After the description in this book of the Rape of Nanking and the Bataan Death March, it was surprising to me that the nurses were not raped or mishandled. However, starvation, diseases, lack of care, exhaustion, and fear over 4 years was, at times, almost too much for some of them and it is a miracle that they survived it.

As Maida put it so well (happy you will be with us, Maida) the book is"full of universal truths about the human condition and the survivability of many."

Larry - Go slow with the book until we get everyone participating, O.K.? So happy you are going to be with us in the discussion!

Fran Hope you get your book soon! Ginny is, I believe, also going to join us in our discussion. I'm hoping that the Floyd Hurricane does not get too near her in South Carolina!

The movie starred Claudette Colbert and Veronica Lake and was based on the nurses stories told in this book,ppg 125-129.It was not very well done and much fabrication was accomplished. "So Proudly We Hail" was the title. One of the nurses who left Corregidor early was supposed to be the technical assistant but the producers and director didn't listen to her objections or corrections and made it the way they thought it should be. It took a long time for the other nurses to forgive her as they thought it was her fault. There was another movie made with Donna Reed about these nurses. Titled "They Were Expendable", it also wasn't very well received.

Ella, no problem about going slow. Don't pick up the book until I retire for the night and usually after a few pages have to turn out the light and go to sleep.

Larry

Gotta read this book and join the discussion. Will stop at the library tomorrow and see if I can get it. My reading time is at mealtime and when I'm on the bus going downtown.

Saw a review of the book in the paper last week and thought about reading it. Now I know I will.

Thanks for the clickable to Romance Books

Yes, I too remember the movie with CC and VL.

As to why the planes were not covered or hidden - I remember reading something about war plans were followed according to what had been learned at officers training. Things didn't change. You make this move and I make that move. Almost like chess. I think it was Ike who came along and changed things. He was the one responsible for our freeway system and that sure changed our way of getting around.

I just don't understand if the book is that popular why all of our libraries are having such a difficult time getting enough copies to meet the demand.

I am still number one for this book, and should hear very soon.

I remember both the actresses you mentioned and the movies about the nurses. Can't think of any movie that has been as good as the book.

Larry....You and I read at the same time. Before I turn out my light is my favorite time for reading books. And sometimes I don't last too long either.

So many of my friends are now getting WebTV. It is really nice and the learning curve is much less steep than the computer.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Thanks, Ann for that reference in the book!

Shirley and Fran - hope you get your books soon, but don't worry about being late, there is plenty to discuss here before we even start reading and we'll wait for you.

There are a couple of ideas in the foreword of this book that we can consider before we get into the story itself; ideas presented by the author, but bear in mind that out of the 99 army and navy nurses that were caught in the Japanese invasion of the Philippines, only 20 were interviewed for various reasons that all of you will read when your books become available. The author states:

"The more I studied the women, the more I realized I was dealing not with individuals but with a collective persona. The women often answered my questions using the pronoun "we" rather than "I." They were some of the least egocentric people I've met and as such were difficult interviews. Many simply did not want to talk about themselves. They did not have the habit of self-reflection that seems to drive the conversation of our era, the need to dwell on identity, to indulge the ego and see all stories as memoir. Rather they insisted on emphasizing their connections, their relationships with one another…"

That is a remarkable statement. Are most of us egocentric and deal only with "self-reflection" in our conversation, as the author suggests? Do we simply dwell on our identity, our own experiences, indulging our ego? Is there anything wrong in doing that?

Do any of you find yourselves using the collective "we" in your recollections or do you know of a group of women or men who do?

Ella, in the situation the nurses found themselves don't you think they had to rely so much on each other not only in carrying out their nursing duties but just to survive (and really haven't read very much of the book yet). Also, don't you think we see the same thing with soldiers who have been in combat. There is a bond there that is very significant.

Fran, I have checked into Web TV for my parents but unfortunately the service is not available in their area.

Larry

A book should be arriving at the local library any day now. They did not have a copy but several other liraries did and they were available. Librarian said she would grab it off the shelf and then give me a call.

Yes, LARRY - in those situations the collective persona would be a natural.

However, the author states "the habit of self-reflection that seems to drive the conversation of our era, the need to dwell on identity, to indulge the ego and see all stories as memoir" is the norm in today's society.

Probably in some situations, the church, even Seniornet, we use "we" in speaking of ourselves as a group, and I often find myself using "we" in speaking of the past, e.g. "we often went to the movies on Saturday afternoon;" however this author is saying that most conversations today dwell on "me" - to indulge the ego and to dwell on identity.

I remember the '60's and '70's as the hippie or love generation and they were not the "me" generation that followed them - rather they were a collective group of "dropouts" and "dropins" to communes and the like.

Does anybody else agree with the author that in conversation it is all "me" or "my" when discussing an issue?

Ella, I think as people get older, have families, and have more life experiences there is less the "me" and more the "we" as we have things in our past where we have been involved with others. The author may be right as an observer of human nature but that isn't my perspective of things.

Larry

I feel that we use the "we" more and more, as we get older because we can't remember all the names of our fellow sojourners and we all seem to be heading in the same direction, to the top of the hill!! Not over it!

Have been discoursing with a cousin of mine who was in the Army Nurse Corps and will be visiting with her next weekend. During WWII, she was stationed in Dyersburg, MS where she was on the medical staff that was flown over to Europe to pick up patients and return them to the States for treatment. I have seen her since 1942 so it will be interesting to see what she has to tell me about the war.

You know, when we talk about the war, we use "we" when telling about the things that "we" did. Interesting!

I was brought up to use the pronouns we and our as a matter of course. The collective sounds less egocentric - it's more encompassing and more welcoming - and most appropriate as used in We Band of Angels.

Dear Larry,

I am so glad that you looked into WebTV for your folks. A friend of mine lives in a small town in Maryland, and she too can't subscribe directly to WebTV, but there is a work around. You subscribe to an ISP provider, and then for a small extra fee you can get the WebTv. That is what she did, and it is very satisfactory.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

B&N has apparently had some warehouses affected by Hurricane Floyd and says they will ship standard mail but it may add a week, I've had it on order now for some time. Hope to get in here soon, waiting for the book,

Ginny

Fran, thanks for that info on Web-TV. I have some information on one of the ISPs in the town where my folks live. Will e-mail them and see if that is doable for my folks. Would sure be easier for them than having to learn to use the computer.

Larry

This author mentions throughout the book, that the military life or a "man's world" was antithetical to everything a woman was or is supposed to be: wife, mother, sister, friend. The only opportunities for women in the early years of this century, apart from wife and mother, were nursing and teaching. Probably this was true, reflecting on the periods of 1930-1940. There were a few notable exceptions of women carving out a life in other fields, but you would have to look far and wide for this type of woman, do you agree? The author states:

In some ways the women in this book are typical of their time - they were born, most of them, in the early twentieth century, the daughters of immigrants and farmers and shopkeepers, obedient girls who studied long and hard in shccol, then came home to hours of chores and housework. In other ways, however, they were distinct, for early on they learned or perhaps were taught the virtue of independence and the autonomous life.

You couldn't keep this kind of gal down on the farm forever - they were looking for adventure and excitement! They had seen how hard life was for their mothers and were determined to be different.

Sound familiar anybody?

Both myself and my daughter were similarly determined not to repeat the life of our mothers. I know my daughter did not want my life - my husband and I were the products of depression-era parents and we were very thrifty. My daughter had many advantages that we did not and she certainly did not come home to a life of chores and housework. Each generation, perhaps, feels that way.

Hope all of you get your books soon and we'll start on the book and the war years, the POW years!

HELLO OUT THERE IN SPACE! ANYONE AROUND?

No one but me has daughters? No comments about daughters and mothers? Any nurses around? Anyone remember when hospitals STERILIZED anything at all? Do they still in operating rooms? I remember some 10-15 years ago at a prolonged stay in the hospital I was amazed at the throw-a-ways of lovely little stainless steel gadgets, just couldn't believe it - one I remember was to take out stitches -OUCH! But the nurse just tossed this lovely little thing away, said it was cheaper to buy new ones than pay for the energy to sterilize them!

You can bet your bottom dollar the nurses in this book would have been so grateful to get their hands on anything like that - they are sterilizing everything here - have you noticed?

And that story (pg. about one of the nurses saving a baby's life by forcing whiskey down its throat? Something, huh? I can remember my neighbor, who had a baby the same age as mine, used to take whiskey on her finger and rub it on her baby's gums to relieve soreness of teething. Had you ever heard of that? Wonder if that child grew up an alcoholic - Hahaaaaa!

Do come in with your comments about the book - we're starting to discuss these nurses.

Did you like any one of them particularly - or remember one of them for some reason?

It was Cassie for me - in the pictures she was always smiling - she just looks the part of a lovely personable and caring nurse, and I felt particularly sorry for both she and her mother when Casssie said goodbye. They never saw each other again!

Hi Ella. I'm here.Will get my copy of the book tomorrow and will start reading then. I have four daughters but none even wanted to be nurses. Oldest one joined the air force and the second one joined the navy. Third one got married at 18 and just celebrated 25 years. Last one went to college. It had been my dream to be a nurse, but wasn't meant to be.

Hello out there in bookland! I have my own copy of the book now. The library has finally called. So, Ella, I took yours back. Thanks for the loan!

Yes, I have one daughter who married at 19 but wanted to be a vet or a nurse. She is always studying about alternative medicine and has become quite an herb lady plus active in her own way in medicine. Her husband is a massage therapist in two doctors offices and even goes into the local hospital when needed. So where would they both be if they had been in WWII? I don't know! But definitely out there helping someone feel well.

I will be out of town until Sunday evening so won't be here to discuss this book until then. Carry on, Ella! Oh, and I learned to rub the babies gums with whiskey from my grandmother but never used it that much. We had something else available from the pharmacy that was much cheaper than whiskey.

I looked up books about the Pacific nurses and the WWII nurses on B&N, and there were 12 available as relatively new books. Most were written in the '90's which surprised me. This was the first one that I had ever heard of and the others look quite interesting.

My book just came, and am off most of today but will try to catch up. My grandfather was a doctor in the mountains of NC and always said the ten most common causes of disease were at the ends of your hands.

Will try to be up to speed tomorrow,

Ginny

George picked my copy of the book today. I will read it tonight, and get back here tomorrow to comment.

I have one daughter, and little miss perfect never wanted to be a nurse. Heaven forbid....she wanted a nice neat office type job, and that is what she is doing.

I, on the other hand, would have loved to have been a nurse, but I guess not enough to think it through.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Oh, good, everyone has their books now, I think. Let's read through Chapter 5 and am so anxious to hear your thoughts. Those beautiful young girls in those BEFORE THE WAR pictures just break your heart when you compare them to later years.

Then you see the Jungle Hospitals and read what they had to endure!! The bedbugs, the rats, the snakes - and eating "slumgullion stew."

And what particularly amazed me was the reaction of the soldiers to the nurses in such a situation - but don't want to say too much at this point.

Weren't you amazed at these young women?

Hi! I dropped in after hearing about the book on another discussion "The Good War", and I am very interested in obtaining the book. I served in the Phillipines after the war (1953-56, too young for the Good War, but old enough for Korea). I have visited some of the places mentioned, such as Corregidor, Bataan peninsula, and Manila and many of the outlyng towns.

I have talked to many Filipinos about the period of the Japanese occupation and some of the things that were done to them. I also met a few Navy men who were prisoners of the Japanese during the war. It should be very interesting to read the nurse's stories.

Lou D.

LOU D! YES, - SO HAPPY TO HAVE YOU HERE! WE CAN LEARN SO MUCH FROM YOU - DO GET YOUR BOOK AND JOIN US

Most of us got our books from the library; however, you get a copy we would love to have you here to give us your first hand account of those places we are reading about - Battan and Corregidor.

Does the Malinta Tunnel still exist? Amazing feat of engineering that tunnel. It's described well in the book!

Thanks so much for coming into the discussion. Can't wait to hear from you!

Lou - I didn't mean for you to wait until you got the book to start telling us about your years in the Phillipines. How long were you there? I know you said it was during the Korean War, but I'm wondering why we felt it necessary to be in the Phillipines - just the proximity to Korea?

It is true, if my memory is correct, that the islands became independent in 1946. After the war did we help the islands to recover from the disastrous bombings of the Japanese? Were the Phillipinos friendly to Americans - I can't think why they wouldn't be, but it seems that we have not well liked in so many countries, it just entered my mind. I remember the scandal of Marcos - can't think of how to spell her name - is it Ismelda? and all her shoes! Takes a woman's mind to remember those details.

Do begin telling us the stories you heard of the pows there and the way they were treated by the Japanese conquerors.

The islands are described as being so beautiful - a paradise. At the time you were there what was the conditions of the cities, the beaches, recreation facilities, bases for American soldiers and planes, etc.

In this book the Phillipine nurses are mentioned from time to time as they were with our nurses in captivity.

Last night I read through the first five chapters and the forward. I hated to put it down.

What a shock!! I guess I do remember some moveies having to do with nurses during the war, but really remember the movies about these nurses in particular.

These were fantastic women. I was particularly interested in those who joined the army or the navy to make interesting lives for themselves, never dreaming exactly what would be in store for them. In those days rather than leading a prosaic life they took on a challenge. Little did they know what a challenge it would be. I think I started to cry in the forward....that is a record for me.......when Elizabeth Norman decided to write the story of these nurses, and before she could get to interview them they were dying or too ill to tell their stories.

More tomorrow. The book was well worth the wait.

Speak to you soon.....

I totally agree with your grandfather, Ginny. I believe that clean hands to be the reason the nurses were fairly healthy. Wash your hands and get ri of the germs.

I found it interesting how they made games when they had a rest after a few months. A deck of cards had to be important to the men. Marbles for Chinese checkers? What did they use for a board. I can see them using the ground.

Of all the supplies to be low on - food, medical supplies etc, but to be low on undergarments? We don't think of these items but they are just as necessary.

I can't wait to get to Central Library next week as a librarian is named Straub. The book lists a Ruth Straub from Milw. Could it be a relative? Possible.

Ella, I was there from 1953 to 1956. I was stationed at the United States Naval Station at Sangley Point, which is about half way between Corregidor and Manila. Sangley had ben a U.S. base since the end of the Spanish-American War, as were some of the other U.S. bases there. Sangley was the headquarters of COMNAVPHIL, the Navy's acronym for Commander of Naval Forces in the Phillipines.

Sangley was a naval air station, but the name doesn't reflect that. The mission was to support forces in the Far East, and to conduct reconnaissance. In the early 50's, some of our planes were conducting missions over Red China, so the spy plane piloted by Gary Powers that Russia shot down in 1960 came as no surprise to many of us, though it shocked the nation at the time. We also had a Marine detachment and a Coast Guard S&R unit.

Other bases were at Subic Bay (naval), Camp Cavite (army), and Clark (air force). The Air Force also had a facility in Baguio, Camp John Hay. Another large naval facility was being built at Cubi Point, across from Subic Bay, at the time I was stationed there.

These bases were in place prior to the Phillipine independence, and most had been won in the Spanish-American War. The bases were occupied by us as part of a treaty with the Phillipine government, to provide mutual defense.

Camp Cavite was returned to the Phillipines in 1953 or early 1954. Sangley was turned over in the late 70's or early 80's. Cubi Point and Subic Bay, which I believe was basically one facility after it was completed, and Clark were returned after the eruption of Mt Pinatabo (sp?), as they were due to be returned soon, as our lease agreement was due to expire in a few years, and the cost of rebuilding was for such a short time was not economically feasible.

Fran - YES, you are indeed right when you said " In those days rather than leading a prosaic life they took on a challenge. Little did they know what a challenge it would be."

These nurses wanted to escape a humdrum existence in the states - wanted adventure - and it was quite an adventure to go overseas in those days, don't you think? For these girls who were mostly from farms and small towns? They were exceptional for their times!

Shirley - Clean hands - certainly - Yesterday, Today and Forever, but it can be so easily forgotten at times I think! And rubber gloves on everyone everywhere these days! The fear of AIDS has all of us jittery - but in the jungles it must have been difficult for these nurses to get the hot water? I know they had a generator for electricity - I must go back and read more carefully how they heated the water. Well, at first, they had everything but later ...........

And to think that everything we are reading was told to the author from the nurses' memory of 50 years ago. That to me is the amazing part of this book. The author states in the foreword: At first I wondered about their ability to recall in detail events and relationships some fifty years old."

The author further says that Ruth Straub, the diarist, is described as being "a sentimental and, at times, fragile woman……..ill equipped for war - they feel it too deeply. At one point she suffered a nervous breakdown and had to be hospitalized and sedated."

Is it any wonder? As I read the book, I kept asking myself how I would hold up under these circumstances and I don't think any of us can answer that unless it happened to us.

It would be fascinating, Shirley, if you turned up a relative of Ruth Straub's. I wonder if these woman passed those memories on down to the children or would it take an experienced interviewer to bring out the memories.

And she says it was with embarrassment that they remembered details so vividly! Even the smallest things like making the checkers and cards were there!

LOU - I have so much to say to you! I couldn't get on this morning for some reason. I'll have to get back with you later as I have so much to do this morning, but quickly I'll put down a few things from the book as to locations.

In Manilla most of the nurses at first went to Sternberg Hospital which was a 450-bed alabaster quadrangle on the city's south side. There was a post called Fort McKinley, seven miles from Manila where the bowling alley, movie theather and the golf course were and Clark Air Field is mentioned - also Camp John Hay, located in the shadow of the Cordillera Central Mountains near BAGUIO - which at that time was the unofficial summer capital and retreat for wealthy Americans and Filipinos.

South of Manilla, a 30-mile drive from the capital, sat SANGLEY POINT AIR FIELD, the huge Cavite Navy Yard and the U.S. Naval Hospital at Canacao. The hospital, a series of white buildings connected by passageways and shaded by mahogany trees, was set at the top of a pennisula.

More descriptions later - but it's evident from your post that these places are familiar to you.

AND EVERYONE - I have so much more to say about these 5 chapters - I'll bore you to tears!!! Just tell me to shut up when you feel like it, O.K.?

Just heard from Ella that she's having ISP problems so we'll carry on till she gets back!

Ginny

Has anyone been able to find Ruth Straub in any of the pictures in the book? The diarist? What tales she told - and wasn't it so sad when she lost her boyfriend?

LOU - Do they still call December 25, 1941 '"Black Christmas" - the day that enemy aircraft repeatedly bombed the city and suburbs?

And what did all of you think of Cassie's experience on the train? Wasn't she something? And learning how to fire a pistol - as if a pistol would do much good?

Has anyone ever heard of an old strategy called WAR PLAN ORANGE 3 - well, I realize that we are not nor have most of us ever been strategists for war or tacticians, whatever they are called, but even I could have told those commanders that declaring one city in the midst of a war a "NEUTRAL" - wouldn't work - would n't you agree? MacArthur knew it the book says. And on New Year's Day, 1942 a sign on the fron of Manila City Hall announced: OPEN CITY, BE CALM, STAY AT HOME, NO SHOOTING. (Do you suppose it was written in Japanese? And the local newspaper says "Stay where you are located…You are as safe where you are as you would be at the place where you plan to move." That was probably true - the Japanese were bombing everywhere.

Which brings something to mind I've always wondered about - how did it happen that Switzerland, during WWII, remained neutral? How convenient for them and the Naziis, who hid their money in Swiss banks - just in case, you know - and for all the allies. How does that happen anyway?

I cannot tell you enough times how much you add to my enjoyment of this book hearing your stories and your thoughts.

I was considerably surprised to read exactly how old Maude was when she joined the nursing corps. Don't remember if it was army or navy or what. She is the one who was in charge, and had served at the end of World War 1. What a responsibility she had when she had to chose which nurses to send back to Australia. That was hard.

I think I've read to chapter nine, and before I close my light tonight I hope to get in another chapter. I think it gets even grimmer, though that seems hardly possible.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

Fran, your use of the word "grim" certainly fits my reaction to the first 4 chatper of the book. The thought went through my mind as to why do we fight wars when the results are so devastating to the people involved? Of course I know there is no simple answer and we have always had wars and I suppose always well. The descriptions of the terrible pain and suffering is certainly graphic and I can't even imagine working in an environment like the one described where the hospital was set up under the trees in the jungle. It is really a wonder that anyone survived that ordeal.

Larry

Ella, I don't know if they still call it "Black Christmas", as I was there in the early 50's. But at the time I first got thre, Manila Bay was a repository of sunken ships, many of them with their superstructure showing above the waters. Shortly after I got there, a Japanese company got a contract to salage most of them, and by the time I left (1956), most of those - at least those that showed - had been removed, for the scrap metal, I believe.

It (the contract) caused quite a controversy, as this was only a few years after the war, and the war was still fresh in the minds of the Phillipine people. There was much concern as to the safety of the Japanese workers if they were to venture into Manila or any of the other towns and cities nearby. I don't recall any incidents, though, so I suppose that the Japanese kept pretty much to their salvage ships. It is notable that even after the Phillipines were taken over by the U.S. after the Spanish - American War many Filipinos still hated the Spanish.

(I have ordered my copy of the book, and am anxiously awaiting it!)
Lou

Yes, grim, but also courage and determination Fran - would describe the conditions and the patients and the nurses! I remember that incident of Maude and didn't you admire her? They needed her - and Josie, if I remember correctly, was also an older experienced nurse. What page was the story about Maude sending nurses home? I've read the entire book, and must go back to find it - so please put those little postit notes on pages where things that strike you as outstanding - so we can go back and discuss it together.

How did she choose, Fran? And why didn't she send Ruth Straub home at that time? I can't remember how she chose?

Did I tell you that my daughter was a nurse in a medevac hospital in the Gulf War - it's a huge tent - well, actually, there are a number of tents and when they are set up everything you need in a hospital is there. Amazing! All the instruments are in the surgical tent, etc. Her unit was set up in the desert way out away from the coast - you remember hearing how some units went way over into the interior. It was near a city called Khalid. Some experience for those nurses also, but they had everything they needed!

She and all the nurses are taught to shoot as soon as they enter the Army as Reservists! And not pistols either! Scary!

Larry - A wonder that they survived or anyone did! We'll get into the next chapters very soon - the ordeal of being in a prison camp.

Lou - Glad you are getting the book so that you can read along with us, especially as you were there. That was some story about the Japanese coming there to get the scrap metal from the ships! That happened here in America as my husband's WWII carrier was sold to the Japanese for scrap metal - when he and some of his buddies found out about, they were bitter. Selling that ship to those that had killed their friends in war.

Yes, war is hell! It takes years and years - probably until the veterans all die - before a nation can forget!

Going back to the book - on pg. 52 I thought it was strange that through all the diseases, the starvation diet, the fighting, the exhaustion, there were so few cases of "shell shock" or as we know it today, post-traumatic stress syndrome. In a postwar report, the chief medical officer in the Phillippines said he was convinced it was because there was no haven for retreat - no safe place to get away from the fighting. What does this say to you?

All the small memories of the nurses during the lull in the fighting from mid-February to the end of March were sweet to read; something for a bit of fun in their lives, the humor , a chance to unwind. They certainly remembered this pause well, didn't they?

DRAT IT! I can't remember now what caraboa was - I read it and was going to remember - HELP, HELP!

On page 104 it tells part of the story about who was chosen to leave, and how they were chosen. I think the older women were chosen first, and some of the ones who were not chosen were very angry about that fact. These older women were in their 50's and 40's. And the order that there would be no farewells and no goodbyes were pretty well ignored.

I don't remember if it was at this time or an earlier time when officers wives and daughters were among the chosen few to leave to get to safety. I would think that would really be regarded as "special treatment".

I am so glad that we finally have a memorial in Washington, D.C. now to honor the women of the armed forces. They have served our country with honor.

Speak to you soon.....Love, Fran

First,some background: Alfred Thayer Mahan: An American naval strategist,who was a U.S. naval officer and president of Newport Naval College (later the Naval War College). He argued in his influential work of 1890,The Influence of Sea Power upon History,that command of the sea was the key to success in war and that the way to secure the sea was to engage the enemy's main force in overwhelming strength and destroy it.

Japanese planners adapted this thinking for possible war against the U.S.,they envisioned swift capture of the Philippines & Guam,thus forcing the U.S.fleet to battle. Admiral Yamamoto argued in 1941 that rather than wait for the American fleet in the western Pacific,the Japanese First Air Fleet shouldgo after the U.S. fleet in mid-ocean at Pearl Harbor.

Between WWI & WWII..war games were fought at the Naval War College..with the assumption of early Japanese capture of the Philippines. The American strategic doctrine for war against Japan was Code-Named the ORANGE PLAN...the plan was revised in 1934 & also in 1943... Orange Plan was virtually a mirror image of Japanese thinking....a major battle to destroy the enemy fleet...the plan was eventually substituted to be small strike forces engaged in hit-and-run raids on scattered Japanese island outposts.

Ella, the carabao is a water buffalo, which is used as a beast of burden in eastern Asia. It is used much as we used to use horses, for plowing and hauling, etc. They seemed to be quite docile, even though they are large and powerful. Little kids of nine or ten handled them quite easily. I don't know if they are used as much now, but I believe that in many of the rural areas they are still utilized. When I was there, they were much in evident where ever rice was grown, and the carabao was well adapted to the conditions in the rice paddies.

Lou

Thanks Fran for giving me that page number. For those who do not have the book - it was in the last week in April that General Wainwright was informed that 2 navy seaplanes were going to attempt to slip through the Japanese blockade, deliver supplies and take out some passengers. He decided to send home 20 nurses and Chief Nurse Maude Davison made the decision that the older nurses, the unstable and ill ones and a few others were to go home. The remaining nurses remembered that decision with some hostility about the "few others" who, in their opinion, were the youngest and most attractive. As Cassie put it "Politics works no matter where you are and what the circumstances" - these few young ones had romantic attachments with some high-ranking officers.

ED - Thanks so much for that bit of history and come back often into the discussion to give us insight as to things not stated clearly in the book. This strategy of declaring a city open and neutral to avoid massive civilian casualties and the destruction of property must be part of that plan. It is called WAR PLAN ORANGE 3 - but, of course, it didn't work in Manilla.

To your knowledge, has this part of the plan ever worked in time of war?

The Japanese strategy, as we all know, worked well in Pearl Harbor, but when the sleepy giant of America awoke and war production got underway, the end was in sight. From time to time as we go along in the book, the author tells us of Japanese plans that were put into place - so stay tuned ED.

The author gives us some history of women's roles in wartime, e.g. Civil War, WWI, etc. She quoted this statement by an Army colonel in 1941 in charge of a military hospital in Louisiana:

Except in the hospital, hostess house, post office, on the highways, and except by invitation, the PRESENCE OF WOMEN MAY BE EMBARRASSING AND MAY DENY OFFICERS AND ENLISTED MEN PRIVILEGES DUE THEM IN THEIR AREAS

Several of these nurses remembered 50 years later how they were being treated - Sally Blaine of Missouri thought that they were so much trouble to the men, they should not have been there and another nurse remembered the men grumbling and the nurses taking it on the chin.

However, when the war was over, a surgeon by the name of John R. Bumgarner was convinced that:

One of the most remarkable things coming out of our experience in Bataan was the presence and performance of the army nurses, In retrospect, I believe that they were the greatest morale boost present in that unhappy little area of jungle called Bataan.

Quite a tribute don't you think?

Found on the internet:

Malaria is an infectious disease transmitted by mosquitoes. Worldwide, about 300 million to 500 million people get malaria each year, including about 1,000 people in the United States — all but a handful of whom contract the disease abroad. Almost all tropical and subtropical countries have malaria-transmitting mosquitoes.







Early symptoms of malaria include headache, fatigue, low-grade fever and nausea. Within about 24 hours, the illness frequently progresses into three distinct stages. First comes the cold stage, characterized by sudden chills and, sometimes, violent shaking, which lasts one to two hours. The second, or hot, stage is marked by a fever, which can go as high as 107° F, at times accompanied by rapid breathing; this lasts three to four hours. The wet stage follows: two to four hours of profuse sweating.

Symptoms

Headache, fatigue, low-grade fever and nausea. Sudden chills and, sometimes, severe shaking. A fever that can be as high as 107° F, accompanied sometimes by rapid breathing. Profuse sweating.

Today chloroquine is given for 3 days and to avoid recurrence primoqine for 14 days.

If you are traveling to a country where malaria exists, you are advised to see your doctor for injections

I read the book some time ago so many of my comments are from recent memory and as those of us of a certain age know short term memory is no match for many of us with long term memory.

One of the points that I think we have to keep in mind in looking at the book in perspective of the military situation of the time is that while what the women endured was horrific, they were not technically in a prisoner of war camp but an interment camp for civilians- thus treated as civlians even though they were in the military.

This changed later as the administration of the camp was turned over to the Japanese army and conditions worsened and the major number of casulaties ocurred.

What is missing from the book and rightly so as it is a book about nurses was the fate of the men who served as medics in the war.

I assume they went to the regular POW camps and shared the fate of those prisoners.

I was wounded in the Korean war and I imagine the military medical situation was simialr there, but I never saw a nurse until I reached the rehab center in the Osaka Army hospital following a series of locations, first a MASH unit- then a hospital ship, then the Osaka Army hospiatl.

All of the medics I came in contact with were Navy or Marine Corps men or Army medics-

I know the nurses were there in the South Pacific because some died on a hospital ship that was hit by a kamikaze attack, and I met some some while on guard duty near the nurses quarters in Okinawa at the end of the war- August 1945.

But I think the majority of care of the wounded was performed by men.

These men deserve special attention as well- as they performed heroically throughout the war.

The post from Jim Olson addresses the thing that concerns me. Mainly the "context" of the book. The discussions seem to center on how uncomfortable they were, etc. And given the life that most of them came from I don't think we can or should try to compare it with today!

It is very likely that some, if not most of the nurses came from homes with out all the creature comforts.. such as indoor plumbing and even electricity! I was at least 10 years too young to go to that war and we didn't have those things. I know that alot of farm boys and girls looked on the service as a step up from hand milking cows and carrying water!! At the time these nurses were running out of undies, my mother was washing clothes on an old maytag wringer machine, it had a gas engine, started by stepping hard on a pedal. And the wringer was hand cranked.

I am used to telling Europeans, that I meet on my travels, when they act like Americans undeservedly have it so good that "the USA didn't come with indoor plumbing". But it is disconcerting to realize that many of our own people seem to think it did!!

The Kosovo refugees really bought that home to me. Our tornado, flood, etc. victims suffered much more devastation than the refugees. And we do alot less to help them. Most of the refugees were living better in the tents than they did at home. How many of you have been off the tourist track in a moslem country? In the nice modern rest Areas on the Autobahn in Germany they have some of the toilet stalls with just the two footprints and the hole in the floor!! I had seen that in outhouses in Greece and Yugoslavia, etc. but it shocked me in such a modern setting, so I asked about it. I was told that many of the people didn't know how to use regular toilets and would try to stand on the rims, etc. I was in Yugoslavia in the 90's and saw many women washing clothes on the old washboard, next to the well or a creek. And I have a larger Refrigerator in my Den than I saw in any house in Yugoslavia, many had none at all.

Point is when you think of what these women went through you have to think of where they came from comparatively. They weren't debutantes! I'm sure most of them had experienced rats, insects, etc. Our hopitals were not all that clean in the 30's and 40's either! I think it is condesending to praise them for being able to make their own cards, etc. Children in 'my day' often did that, we even made our own Monopoly and Parchessi games! Prisoners since the begining of time have done so.

These nurses deserve no more and NO LESS attention, praise, etc. than any other person who went through such terrible experiences. The Viet Nam nurses have only lately gotten recognition. BUT the men get it all because they write the books, they tell the stories, etc.. The author of this book really deserves credit for writing it, maybe more than for going through something she had no choice on!! So I think if this book is to be taken seriously we have to drop all the talk of Gender. It would have been just as terrible had it happened to men.

I also resent the implication that women in the 30's and 40's were such wimps!! Most of the women I knew as a child worked outside the home, for the same reasons they do today.. one salary may keep the wolf away, but it doesn't pay for the extras!!

Last week, before I left on a trip to visit a WWII Army Air Force nurse who is a cousin, I looked at the Barnes&Noble site for books on nurses in the wars. At that time, there were 13 new books, mostly written in the 90's, about nurses in WWII. If we are going to care about gender here, do any of you know how many books were written by men about men in WWII? Possibly in the hundred's.

Anyway, the info contained in the two previous posts was, in my mind, necessary to get a perspective on this subject. Not all of us are familiar with the living conditions of girls who came into nursing at that time in our history.

At the class reunion that I attended over the weekend, we discussed the reasons for the women of that time going into nursing, teaching or office work. Of course, there was only so much training available to women in that financial position. Seemed like none of these women came from the upper income class therefore they did need training that they could afford. Available to them was the possibility of being a secretery, a nurse or a teacher. Nursing offered the possibility of getting away from the farm, especially by joining the service.

My cousin who started nurses' training because she wanted to be a stewardess( a prerequisite at that time), ended up offering her services to the AAF where she became an air-evac nurse. She was a farm girl from Union City and along with her sister came to Indiananpolis to train at St Vincent's school of nursing. She joined the AAF in 1942 after graduating and spent most of her time here in the states, flying with injured men to put them in the service hospitals nearest their hometowns. She was stationed in Dyersburg, TN and Stockton, CA. Surprisinly, after the war, she returned to Union City to work in the local hospital and met and married a local farmer. There she was, right back where she started. In fact, they are still on that same farm, after raising a family of seven children.

I think that we need to consider all of the people who were in the war, not just the men who fought in battle but the women who helped to patch them up afterward. There is a memorial in Washington,D.C., dedicated to all of the American women who have served this country in any war. My cousin's name is on that wall. Her brother's will be on the new WWII memorial. He was a POW in Germany and returned to America in 1945. He was a co-pilot on a B-24 which was shot down over Poland. Four of the crewmen were killed and the rest of the crew were put in prison camp. His story is on the WWII website. Life sober's us, doesn't it?

The parents of these girls, who found their way into nursing, didn't have electricity or water or bathrooms in their farm house when the girls left for nurses' training. When they returned, all of that had changed. As a child visiting the farm, I used their modern conveniences before they did. Can't tell you how glad I was to see an indoor bathroom at that farm. Being a city girl, I lived a much different life, BUUUTTT, I wouldn't have been offered a much different way to get an education either. When I graduated from H.S. in 1953, the choices weren't much different but they were changing. I looked around at my former female classmates and realized that most of them had attended a school or college and earned degrees in nursing or teaching. That's just the way it was then.

Thank you so much Jim, for your comments and I think you are underestimating your memory! You are correct that, at first, the nurses were put in with "foreign civilians or enemy nationals" as they were called. The War Ministry of Tokoyo, who had planned this invasion very well, had designated Santo Tomas University as a prison; originally the university had high walls and iron fences around it to which the Japanese added barbed wire.

The next few chapters give a painful account of the fall of Bataan, the last stand on Corregidor and the surrender. Perhaps we should escalate our discussion into those chapters - we have been lingering too long over the interesting individuals who were interviewed by the author.

Jim - it would be so interesting to us if you could tell us of the treatment you received in the MASH unit and hospital.

This book, not only tells the stories of the nurses' fate, HISTORYBUF2, but of the courage and valor shown by the soldiers in battle; also it gives us a good insight into the military planning of both the Allies and the Japanese. I do think you would enjoy the book if you could get it from your library.

As you stated these were girls who had known hardship on the farms and were well acquainted with outdoor plumbing, rats in the barn, etc. Certainly not the diseases, exhaustion and starvation, but they handled themselves well under those hardships also. And the sick and dying soldiers who had fought so bravely, only to surrender to the enemy, are portrayed in the book.

I was amused at your statement that the U.S did not come with indoor plumbing, but surprised that the Auotobahn had such crude toilets! I've not traveled extensively in Europe, but wish I had the opportunity. All Americans should go to other countries to see how blessed we are with modern conveniences. I've only been to Italy once and the only deprivation I could complain about was the lack of washcloths - Hahahaaaa! Nobody told me to bring my own as they are not provided. And air conditioning, also, but we lived most of our lives without it and that didn't trouble me. I also had used a washboard when young and helped put clothes through the wringer (was afraid of that thing clamping down on my fingers!) and I've lived in a house with no electricity and outside plumbing. Never have forgotten one experience of entering the "little 2-holer outside, closing the door and a huge snake slithering over the top of the door - all I could do was yell "Help, don't open the door, Help!"

LouLOU - have you received your book from the Library yet? I am very curious to know if Santo Thomas University is still there. That is where the rest of the story takes place in this book and there are pictures of it and the little "shanties" that the prisoners built for a bit of privacy under the crowded conditions that existed.

We have received word that Fran has had a bad fall, fractured her wrist very badly and had to have 6 pins inserted, so she will not be able to be with us for quite sometime. So sorry to hear of her injuries - but we'll carry on doggedly until the end. We'll get into the next 6 chapters - Bataan, Corregidor, the Malinta Tunnel, Santo Thomas and in enemy hands.

Before we go on, may I say that I spoke to Ms Straub at our library and she is not a relative to Ruth Straub.I was the second one to ask her that. Same name, same city.

One of the volunteer projects I'm working on at the present time is preparing a file for microfilming. These cards have newspaper articles about WW ll service people and I found seven articles about Ruth Straub begining with her safe arrival in Australia and ending with her promotion to captain in 1944 in TN.

SHIRLEY, THERE YOU ARE!

I was afraid you had deserted our little group here! You must be more specific than that - what kind of a file - is it all about WWII? Where did the file come from?

And the record on Ruth Straub ends in 1944 in Tennessee? I went quickly to the last chapter - "Aftermath" - and there was no mention of Ruth.

Anyway, Shirley, are you still reading the book - have you finished it? Do stay around a little longer - we have taken our time here as some were delayed in getting their books. Just now getting into the surrender and imprisonment of the soldiers and nurses.

Back tomorrow!

I am wondering if these women brought a strength to their war experiences that our young women today don't seem to have. Their lives seem to have been much more harsh due to the lack of modern conveniences and the breadth of education that is available today. Would my granddaughter, for instance, stand up to an enemy the way these women and men did? Do the children of today understand the freedom that we have to pursue our dreams that really didn't exist in the 30's?

Referring to the questions above, I had never heard about the attack on the Phillipines that occurred the same day as the Pearl Harbor attack. When you look at the size of Japan, it makes you wonder how they managed to be so powerful for so long. And why?

What was the reasoning that made the US abandon these soldiers, sailors and nurses?

Shirley, glad to see you back in the discussion.

In the middle of January, 1942 after they had moved their patients and their hospital to the Bataan pennisula and were cutting back on rations, General MacArthur told the forces from his command post in Malinta Tunnel that:

Help is on the way from the United States. Thousands of troops and hundreds of planes are being dispatched……It is a question now of courage and of determination……I call upon every soldier in Bataan to fight in his assigned position…….If we fight we will win.

However, the military planners in Washington had already decided that the country was not prepared to engage in a two-front war and that Europe and the Atlantic would have to be our first priority. MacArthur knew this at the time, although some historians believe the messages he was getting were somewhat indecisive.

Meanwhile, the Japanese knew the true conditions of the American and Phillipino forces and busily engaged in reinforcing their troops, squadrons and artillery, and after a lull resumed their air raids. On March 11th General MacArthur , his family and key staff members, escaped to Australia. On March 18th, thousands of tomato-sized cans tied with red and white ribbons fell from the sky onto Bataan and Corregidor - they contained a neatly folded note from the Japanese requesting them to surrender by noon, March 22nd..

At the end of March quartermasters shot the last cavalry horse and the troops began to forage along their own lines and rations were cut to the minimum. Cassie remarked "We were expendable. You'd have to be pretty dumb not to know that this was it, buddy."

On April 8, General Wainwright transferred the last battalions of infantry to Corregidor and ordered all nurses to be evacuated as well - all entered the Malinta Tunnel for their last stand.

Almost all the nurses interviewed spoke of this day with tears as they were ordered to leave their defenseless patients and board transport to Corregidor. Wainwright years later in his memoir said:

You may talk all you want of the pioneer women who went across the plains of early America and helped found our great nation…..but never forget the American girls who fought on Bataan and later on Corregidor…….Their names must always be hallowed when we speak of American heroes…."

BATAAN FALLS - WORSE BLOW TO AN AMERICAN ARMY - announced the New York Times - journalists blamed the defeat on the overwhelming Japanese army and on hunger, fatigue and disease. Officially, Washington later listed over 78,000 American and Filipino troops as surrendering to the Japanese.

After the war, the allies calculated that less than half of the friendly forces that surrendered on April 9, 1941 lived to see home again. And the long walk from the battlefield that killed so many became forever known as THE BATAAN DEATH MARCH.

Does anyone remember these events as they happened? Or were we too concentrated on Europe?

Has anyone read extensively on the Bataan Death March?

We have been talking in the GOOD WAR discussion about racist attitudes during WWII - toward blacks, Jewish and Japanese - of course, the imprisoning of the American-Japanese citizens was in the forefront of our discussion.

Did we have a good reason after the Rape of Nanking (briefly described in this book) and the Bataan Death March?

Times are different today - our two nations are at peace, we have many Asian citizens, but hatred for the enemy's actions can be undersood at this great distance, don't you think?

Well, thank you for the welcome back, but I haven't left. Just lurking as I don't like to get involved in deep discussions. Should be able to finish the book tonight. Have been making notes as I go along. Re: Wainwrights comments - I was so proud of those women. To have to walk out of surgery and leave the patients behind while they made their escape even tho it was an order had to be very difficult.

I remember some of this early part of the war even tho I was in grade school at the time. Probably because of the news reels - RKO - at the movies. I do remember hearing about the Bataan Death March. It was shortly after this that my four older brothers began entering the service.

The files I am working with at Central Library deal with newspaper items concerning any service person from the Milwaukee area during World War 11. Volunteers clipped the item, dated it and listed the newspaper it came from. This was pasted onto index cards and put into alpha order. Many people, especially genealogists, use this file when looking for relatives. I've seen a number of friends and neighbors listed. My work is to find cards with an item on the back, make a copy and set up a new card. The cards will be microfilmed when I am done. Have been on the project for a full year and am in the M's. My four hours a week doing this often get interrupted by other pressing projects that only a volunteer can do.

Ella, I wasn't born until 1941 so really have no personal memories of the war. My Father had a heart murmur and was rejected for the military and don't recall that we lost any close relatives. I can, however, certainly understand why people who participated in the war and lived it day-by-day could still hold hard feelings towards our former enemies. I guess I have the same feelings toward the Russians as it is hard to overcome 40 years of being told to hate them as our enemy and now they are our dear friends. I don't think so.

Larry

Although the war ended 54 years ago, Japan still has not owned up to its acts then, and has not made reparations to any of the countries it invaded. Germany has done so, and has paid many billions of dollars to try to right some of the wrongs they committed. Yet this country is so afraid of being called racist that no effort is made to collect any reparations from Japan, and in fact the media, especially television, will not even tell a joke disparaging the Japanese, yet it seems O.K. to make jokes at the expense of Germany.

Leaders in Japan will not acknowledge the atrocities committed against the people of China, especially the Rape of Nanking. A while back someone posted a site about lesser known facts of WW2, and the massacre of prisoners in many places was reported. It seems one favorite method was to behead the prisoners, who had been forced to kneel at the edge of a hole, into which their bodies were shoved! Perhaps acts such as these have contributed to a feeling of hatred towards those who committed them.

I was only 8 years old when the Bataan Death

Although the war ended 54 years ago, Japan still has not owned up to its acts then, and has not made reparations to any of the countries it invaded. Germany has done so, and has paid many billions of dollars to try to right some of the wrongs they committed. Yet this country is so afraid of being called racist that no effort is made to collect any reparations from Japan, and in fact the media, especially television, will not even tell a joke disparaging the Japanese, yet it seems O.K. to make jokes at the expense of Germany.

Leaders in Japan will not acknowledge the atrocities committed against the people of China, especially the Rape of Nanking. A while back someone posted a site about lesser known facts of WW2, and the massacre of prisoners in many places was reported. It seems one favorite method was to behead the prisoners, who had been forced to kneel at the edge of a hole, into which their bodies were shoved! Perhaps acts such as these have contributed to a feeling of hatred towards those who committed them.

I was only 8 years old when the Bataan Death March ocurred, but I remember reading about it in Life magazine when word got back here. The horrors that ocurred in the prison camps after were not well known until after the war. The March, and the Rape of Nanking, can readily be accessed on the internet, and I have read much about them. One can only hope that such as they may never occur again, but with events in Africa and the Balkans recently, that is one false hope.

Shirley - Thanks for telling us about your work - sounds very interesting and a wonderful resource for those who might be looking up relatives.

Lou and Larry - You and others may be interested in the following:

Dr. Paul Ashton has written a book entitled "Bataan Diary" and a companion book dealing with many stories from others that were there. He has quite a web site and if you go there browse through " REVISITING ON THE 50th ANNIVERSAY" where you will find a picture of the Malinta Tunnel which was on the rock island of Corregidor - the island where Americans and Phillipino forces made their last stand, surrendering on May 6, 1942. Here is the site - which you will find very interesting:

Bataan Diary

Just to quote a short paragraph from one of the sites:

Early on, the Japanese learned to control the prisoners and foil escape attempts. They would put the prisoners into groups of ten, making those ten responsible for each other. When one man in the group made trouble, escaped, or attempted escape, all were punished. The group was lined up, the order was given (every other man step forward). Those that did so were forced to dig their own graves and were shot. The remaining prisoners in the group were forced to bury their comrades.

For those who are interested and do not have the book, there is a picture of Santo Thomas University which was a prison camp during WWII.

And further:

Because Spain was a neutral country, Spanish Filipinos felt that there would be no problems with the Japanese when they invaded. So they did nothing.... it was business as usual. The Japanese slaughtered them in great numbers. The local natives that lived near Santa Tomas, which is near Bilibid prison, said there where bodies of men, women, and children everywhere. Sidewalks, streets, and gutters were rivers of blood. Bodies were left to rot in the tropical sun and even now, some fifty years later, there are not many Spanish Filipinos left.

Their actions were far from the conditions of the Geneva Convention. But someone said that they never signed the agreement at Geneva and, therefore, didn't believe they were bound by its specificities.

Gosh, how awful, Ella, how diabolical, the step forward thing, beyond necessity of any kind. Awful.

I've decided to try to persevere in the book in the hopes of getting to the events you outline above, but I must say the author's style is just overwhelming. Here are some shattering events, yet at every turn (and I'm not very far along but will catch up tomorrow when I have some leisure) the author's conclusions and way of presenting the material stop me every time.

How about this one? For instance at the very start of the book the author is explaining how there weren't many choices for women as far as careers then. OK. And you could be a teacher and have to take care of somebody else's children or a....and I've forgotten the other main choice...was it office work (don't have the book in the house) but then you'd have to take care of whatever or a wife but then you'd have to take care of a man, so hey, you could be a nurse!! What on EARTH??

When I encounter such thoughts I can't proceed? That seems totally crazy. Wouldn't a NURSE expect to be "taking care" a whole lot more than any other profession normally would?

I know these women have a powerful story, I may have to skim over the awkward author in order to hear it, tho.

I know that nursing once was not considered the highest of professions, but I don't know where that idea got started. Apparently these women distinguished themselves forever and elevated the position to where it should be, the angels of mercy thing.

I don't know much about nursing, the only connection I have was my grandmother was head of nurses at Hannaman (sp) Medical Hospital in Philadelphia when I was a little girl. She seemed to think at the time that some of the girls had an unrealistic idea of what nursing should be and was. But those are vague memories of a child.

Am determined to read this book, have heard of Bataan and Corregidor all my life, and had two uncles serving in the Phillipines, want to finish it!

Ginny

Ginny,

Yes, those were the main choices for women coming from the lower income classes but to them it was thrilling. If you read my earlier post, my cousin said that she was becoming a nurse so that she qualified for becoming a stewardess which was a prerequisite. She came from the farm and her sister was also in nursing. I don't think that the middle and lower income girls thought beyond doing some sort of service. It was a whole different world especially in the midwest. Now, in the east, girls had more choices offered if they had money. College was right there for them and look at Katherine Graham's mother who became a well known writer in her time and an active political backer of Republicans. I think no one told her that she couldn't do these things. But, the farm girls had a certain humility and shyness so thought of only educating themselves for service. My two aunts, in their 80's, both city girls of the midwest, and trying to live through the depression had very peculiar jobs to start there days away from home. One put the fat in the Van Camps Pork & Beans and the other one glued fabric onto sample cards which were sent to ladies so that they could pick the fabric that they wanted for a particular piece of clothing. Both of these women went on to better things in 1938 or 39 when one entered the City Hospital School of Nursing and the other start studying to become a bookkeeper. The nurse ended up in WWII where she served in Europe and Iran and Africa and is memorialized on the wall in WashingtonDC that honors all women who served in Americans wars. My other aunt became a bookkeeper, married and when her husband bacame bedridden, she went back into the bookkeeping business.

Part of the problem here is that we keep forgetting that the depression was going on and women probably took any job that they could do and didn't think about making a career out of it. It was just what they had to do for the time being. Did you know that women learned how to use blow torches, became welders and worked in the plane building factories but when the war ended, the men whose places they had taken, demanded their jobs back and they got them. One lady was so good, she started a business in New Jersey making wrought iron fencing, gates and lots of furniture and still has that business going today.

Yes, Ann, that's true, but I can't get over the comparison between taking care of somebody's children not being attractive but taking care of somebody physically is less demanding??!!?? Perhaps it's as you say, there was more to it than the way the author explained it. Actually YOU explained it better than the author did. To me, nursing is a whole LOT more taking care than teaching ever was, I've done one of the two and can't even fathom the comparison?

Ginny

Don't you think, Ginnythere is a difference in taking care of a perfectly healthy husband, than a very ill man in a hospital? Not to joke about it, but at times a healthy husband can be more of a problem - he is around the house most of the day where your shift at the hospital is 8 hours. You don't prepare the food for the sick, you don't scrub the floors or dust the furniture in a hospital as one does as a housewife and mother. You cannot travel from job to job, city to even another country.

As the book explained these girls came from homes where their mothers worked from dawn to sunset, grew old too quickly from the hard work and the constant care of children and home, with little reward. Their daughters wanted something more from life.

Lou - Have you got the book now and do any of the pictures or the story bring back memories of when you were there?

Ella, I'm still waiting for my book! It was ordered over a week ago, and should be here soon. I can't wait to read it, but in the meantime I have looked up a number of web sites dealing with Bataan.

On Dr. Ashton's site there were a number of pictures of Corregidor, and they are much as I remember them, such as the mile-long barracks, Malinta tunnel, and the pictures of the cannons and coastal defense mortars. Corregidor is a beautiful island, as is much of the scenery in the Phillipines. A favorite picture subject for many of the sailors stationed at Sangley Point was the sunset over Bataan, which could be easily seen from the 2nd floor back entry of our barracks. I'm sorry that I don't have any photos of those sunsets, as the background made a beautiful subject.<p. There are a couple of other small islands near Corregidor, one of which, Caballo (sp?) is part of a legend concerning star-crossed lovers. The town of Mariveles (on the shore of Bataan, and mentioned in many accounts of the war) plays a part, as it was named after the young woman. If I can find it anywhere on the net, I will relate the full story.
Lou

Enjoyed browsing through these posts without reading the book, and just want to say after service in WWII (Europe) and Korean War (21 months) and professional army career, I have enormous respect for the nurses !

Tom: ... Great to see you back posting... It's been a long time since I've read one from you...

I've now read half the book and agree with Tom, these women are truly spectacular. Am very impressed with their constancy and dedication to duty in the midst of truly hideous conditions.

Am not sure where we are in discussing this?

I'm struck quite a bit by the McArthur thing. I don't think the author pulls many punches here and I wonder if those of you who can remember do remember any Dugout Doug remarks or negative feelings about McArthur? I keep thinking about Caesar in his red robe in battle so the soldiers could see him. And Wainwright right there, too. Seems inequitable.

Likewise Ella's earlier question about why some were selected and some weren't to leave really is a good question and hits home. Right at the last there, the officer's wife or fiancee got to leave and the rest stayed. I once read the book THEY WERE EXPENDABLE and certainly that must have been the idea some of them got.

I think Ann was right, in answer to the question above, in that some girls had come, as the author pointed out, from such harsh backgrounds that anything away from their present lives looked good. It's interesting when the chips were down how nicely they (and heroically they) managed to survive. It must have been terrifying, so many of the things, and the horror must have been unbelievable. Imagine watching the Japanese roll in after all that fighting.

In the photograph the author asks are a couple of the women smiling or is it a grimace? Doesn't look like a grimace to me. Maybe it's a nervous trying to get along smile. After what those women went through nobody could fault them.

I thought one of the most pitiful scenes in the book in a book totally full of pitiful scenes was where the native Filipinos, having been freed, inadvertently joined the Bataan Death March. Does that mean they were treated like the others?

So in answer to the questions above, no I would not have signed up for such a life of "adventure." I remember being recruited in college for a career in the military, looked good, but didn't offer anything I couldn't provide for myself. It's interesting to read those words now, if we now had a draft do you think men AND women would be drafted?? Why is patriotism confined to men draftees?

I thought the book made several points on "women's roles" and the difficulty of women in combat, I wonder, if, God forbid, a draft were held today, if women would be drafted right along with men?

"Adventure" didn't enter in to my decision not to join the military. This was 1965...There was a draft at the time or the rumors of a coming draft. I remember teaching in the 8th grade 19 year olds who, if failed, were drafted into the Vietnam War. I didn't fail anybody.

I don't know anybody like these nurses, no. I think it would be marvelous to be able to talk to one, though.

Ginny

Ginny,

I liked the author's style as it essentially let the women tell their own story often in their own words.

The author of the new Reagan biography could learn from reading this book.

Lou,

It is true that the Japanese have been very reluctant to own up to the atrocities commited by Japanese, but then the US has been the same (note the current concern over shooting civilians in Korean War)

Neither side adhered to the Geneva Convention in treating prisoners although the US did a much better job once the prisoners were removed to US or other areas removed some distance form the battle.

Many Japanese prisoners were shot in Okinawa, Guam, and Saipon- civilian women were raped etc. (including some Japanese nurses)

One Japanese woman on Okinawa in the last days of the war reports being raped twice on the same day- once by a Japaneses soldier, once by an American.

No nation has a perfect record when it comes to war atrocities.

Ours is better than most- but not perfect.

One of the things I liked most about the book was that the women come through as real flesh and blood characters with their own noble qualities and also some of their own squabbles and petty concerns and human weaknesses.

They are indeed admirable and due all respect- but "Angels"?

I saw them as real people.

The nurses made the same comment Lou about the beauty of the islands - they thought they were a paradise when first encountering them. You will enjoy the book having been in all these places. Do you by any chance know WHY the Malinta Tunnel was built - by whom and when? This book as I recall, just gives a picture of it and, of course, describes it very well as the patients, staff and all the soldiers on Corregidor used it during the last stand of the Allied forces before surrender.

TOM- Glad you stopped by, we are just about halfway through the book, so continue with us or get a copy at the Library and read along.

GINNY - We are just starting into the chapters dealing with the imprisonment of the nurses in Santa Thomas University, which was used for a prison during the occupation by the Japanese. You mentioned earlier that your uncles were in Bataan - did they survive? Do you remember them talking about the surrender?

As I remember it, and later news stories and books reported that MacAarthur was not admired for abandoning the troops on the battlefield. You might compare it to a captain of a sinking ship who stays with it until the last man is off or goes down with his men. And, later, of course, he was fired by President Truman in the Korean War and made his famous speech before Congress - "Old soldiers never die, they just fade away." The man was very self-centered and egotistical all his life and probably felt he must save himself for the nation - Ha!

We should probably make it clear here that the author explains why she chose the word "angels." I'll quote from the book"

I was against using the word "Angels…. Men-not women- apply that appellation to nurses and most of us find it denigrating, insulting and just plain silly. Men use it to remind women to sacrifice, to work long hours for low pay and not complain. It is meant to idealize women, to push them to be perfect, because that is the kind of woman, the kind of nurse, men want. I'm no angel, and neither were the gritty women of Bataan. They were human beings, as brave and as fearful as their male comrades, but after much thought, and a little prompting from literary friends, I came to see the word "angel" as the only metaphor that married the conflicting ideas of bravery and compassion, heroism and care.

The nurses of Bataan and Corregidor were in every sense 'at war' side by side with men. The difference was that they carried a battle dressing instead of a gun. They fought, and fought fiercely, to preserve life as everyone around them was bent on taking it. In that light "angels" seemed just right."

Keep in mind that the author herself is a nurse and has her Ph.D. in Nursing. Her specialty is nursing history and she has also written another book entitled WOMEN AT WAR: The Story of Fifty Military Nurses Who Served in Vietnam, and numerous articles.

JIM- Do you know the 16 nations that signed the Geneva Accords? Is it true that Japan did not? You are right, I suppose, that the cruelty of war affects soldiers on both sides and they do things that ordinarily they would never dream they could do. Sad, isn't it? And how they live with that is beyond me.

The author should be commended for allowing the nurses to tell the story their way, as you commented. Their memories after 50 years are phenomenal.

Ginny I never answered your question regarding women being drafted in the next war. I think you'll find the answer in the author's epilogue - she states "We are not likely to see another group of women like Cassie, Josie, Sallie and the others, not in the American military. Neither the modern army nor the modern navy has an all-female nursing unit."

My daughter teaches nursing in a large university and every year more males graduate - just as there are more women in non-traditional roles (my husband cannot restrain from making a remark when he sees women on road construction crews, and I'm not telling what he says) Should there be a draft for nurses, you would find both male and female called for duty.

Ella, page 96 tells that the tunnel had been built secretly many years before but doesn't say why or by whom. We can believe the army built it probably with orders from the government. We don't know what all goes on by our government, then or now. Page 100 tells that the nurses no longer thought of the tunnel as a haven but as a different kind of hell. On page 107, Wainwright was concerned about using the tunnel as the enemy could fill it with poison gas or use flame throwers. Thank God they didn't.

Yes, I was thinking of that this morning, Shirley, about how they might throw those flame throwers in there, very frightening, thought the author did a good job there tho I still contend the book got off to a rocky start.

And of course "Angel" means something a lot different now, I think, I don't know what's behind the current fervor for angels but you see it everywhere. Maybe it's the TV show.

Ella, no, they never talked about it and I think, I may have been incorrect and one was later stationed in Guam but am not sure, foggy memories. Both are deceased now. It's amazing, think about it, how many families can speak of a relative in these foreign service situations in America. It's made an impression on us whether or not we want to admit it, for all time, really.

I thought when Truman finally relieved McArthur the entire nation was in shock? I thought people wept in the streets for the poor "old soldier?" I never heard any of this stuff at all.

It must have been terribly hard to see your comrades go to safety and stay behind and it must have been equally hard to be sent away and leave your friends. That's not good decision making by somebody, I don't think. Of course, I don't have the same pressures and I have the Monday Morning Quarterback situation, am sure whoever made the decisions did so for the best.

Am tremendously impressed by their attempts to create hospitals out of nothing and their home made clothes, amazing.

So you do think they'll draft women next time? I don't.

Ginny

Thanks,Shirley for the information - I wish I knew WHY that tunnel was built however. And built so well. The nurses stated they could hardly hear the bombing in there and went right on working. Yes, I do remember they thought it was hell and were so happy to be outside even though they were in enemy hands.

Perhaps our government built it with the thought in mind of it being a fortress in time of war????

GINNY Let us just hope there won't be another war so we will never know if women would be drafted or not. If they are, it would be supportive positions, i.e., clerical, supplies, etc., don't you think? And there would be exemptions if there were children to care for - did England draft any women during WWII?

The next few chapters deal with the surrender of Corregidor and the imprisonment of the nurses. For the first couple of months after the surrender the women remained with the captors in the Malinta tunnel but then were transferred ; at first they believed they were going with the patients to a hospital but once again they were separated from their patients. Here, I believe, it is appropriate to post the author's words about the role of a nurse"

From their student days forward, nurses are told that they have an almost sacred obligation to those in their charge - the patient always comes first - and, thus, caring for the sick and injured becomes a kind of prepossessing sentiment, like comradeship. ……Decades later, the Angels felt it. …..I watched them weep inconsolably in the telling. That kind of loyalty and sense of sacrifice and duty stands out in sharp relief in our era.

I have trouble with the word "Angel" used here even though I thought EN explained it well; however, whenever someone does a good deed for us we often express the thought that "you have been an angel to me" or something similar and those soldiers who were injured and so ill must have felt that way.

People are collecting all kinds of angels - jewelry, ornaments, straw angels - you name it! It certainly wouldn't hurt society to have a few more of the human kind around, just to remind us of hope.

Forgot to ask if anyone knows anything at all about Japanese culture during the l930's or '40's? How did the men feel towards women - were the women thought of as possessions? Those of you who read MEMOIRS OF A GEISHA perhaps can tell us something? Do they still have geisha girls there? They weren't prostitutes were they? I always thought they were just for entertainment for the men; but I imagine prostitution was legal in Japan? Is it today?

The nurses in this book weren't raped, although one came close to it in the tunnel - and the Japanese were so amazed at women in the midst of war. In their culture no women were near the soldiers - did they have all male nurses behind the lines I wonder? And were women trained as nurses for hospitals on the mainland. We know so little about other cultures (speaking for myself).

Ella, I am still waiting for my book! It seems the dealer entered the wrong expiration date for my credit card, and that (hopefully) is now straightened out, and I should receive the book shortly.

In the meantime, I have found a site that should answer many questions about Corregidor and the Malinta Tunnel. Fall of the Phillipines.

This is a book about the U.S. in the Phillipines at the beginning of WW2. It looks very interesting, and I intend to read the whole thing piecemeal. It is broken down into sections under different headings, and if anyone wishes to scroll down to the "Seige of Corregidor' they will find a wealth of information, including maps and photos. (And the reason I found stated for the tunnels was "storage". Seems like a mundane reason, but logical.)

There is also much to be learned about the Bataan campaign, and the aftermath of the surrender. It seems very appropriate material that shpuld tie in with the nurse's story.

That is an excellent site, Lou, thank you for finding it. I don't have time today to read all of that, but just skimmed parts of it. They were kinder to MacArthur than perhaps the book we are discussing - and I might have been a bit harsh. However, years ago I read a biography about the man and remembered his conceit and his insecurity at what he perceived as not living up to the image of his father (I hope I'm correct in that observation - it's been years!). He was brilliant in WWI and had a wonderful reputation at the start of WWII and performed well in the occupation of Japan, didn't he? He certainly got into hot water during the Korean War.

I didn't see the reference to the Malinta Tunnel - not enough time. Was amused at seeing this, however, our soldiers:

We're the battling bastards of Bataan; No mama, no papa, no Uncle Sam; No aunts, no uncles, no cousins, no nieces; No pills, no planes, no artillery pieces. . . . And nobody gives a damn. " The nurses called themselves the "Battling Belles of Bataan."

ELLA When I said "nice modern rest areas on the German Autobahn" I was trying to make it clear that these were NOT "CRUDE" facilities! Actually have never seen such beautiful tile and cleaner places!

The POINT being that even in these nice modern places they HAVE to recognize that what we think of as crude, backward, etc. can still be a modern way of life to others. Who can really say which is the more hygenic?? Only your feet go when others have gone before!!

As for washcloths... few places in Europe or Mexico do supply them. I have solved the problem by always taking a 10 pack of large white men's handkerchief's. They make great washcloths, ( also serve as napkins, headcovering for churches, etc.) don't take up much space, dry quickly and don't break my budget if I forget them!! Also always carry some of those little packs of kleenix for the places that don't have toilet paper, or have the equivalent of crepe paper!

Completed in 1922, Malinta Tunnel has a main tunnel 835 feet long and 24 feetwide with 24 laterals branching out from it. Originally an arsenal and underground hospital, its unique location beneath the Malinta Hill made it an ideal bomb-proof headquarters for embattled Filipinos and Americans. From December 29, 1941 to March 12, 1942, it functioned as headquarters of Gen. Douglas MacArthur. It also served as the seat of the Philippine Government under Pres. Manuel L. Quezon. Today, visitors can experience the thrills of Malinta Tunnel vividly staged Light and Sound Show called the "Malinta Experience". Scripted by National Artist and film director Lamberto Avellana and sculptures made by National Artist Napoleon Abueva, the show is a reenactment of World War lI's dramatic events.

Hi Ella,

In answer to your questions about the nurses, yes, there were Japanese nurses and also, they have written a book. I will look for the title.

The geishas were originally MEN but the courtesans became jealous of them and learned the geishas art and took over from the men. There were prostitutes also. In the 1930's, the women who ran the geisha houses started selling the girls' virginity and the girls knew nothing about sex. They were told by their house mothers to just lie still when the men entered the room. How horrible! I would call that rape! Today, I believe, their are only about 400 or 600 geishas but before WWII, there were 60,000. The tradition is losing popularity because of westernization of the younger people in Japan.It costs the women who run the geisha houses, $500,000 to train a geisha. During a depressed time in Japan, families sold their young daughters to the geisha houses.

About MacCarthur, I saw a show on the History Channel which explained that he left Wainwright in charge on Correigedor.Wainwright never got over surrendering Correigedor, thought he had ruined his army career. He looked like a wraith when he came out of the POW camp. For the Japanese surrender ceremony, MacCarthur chose as one of his main aides, Gen. Wainwright.

During the Japanese occupation, flame-throwers were used to chase people from the caves. They killed hundreds of women and children. They also killed their own countrymen who were misguided Japanese Phillipinos. They thought that since their heritage was Japanese that they would be spared.

Our nurses who served in the Phillipines were magnificent! What courage and devotion to their patients! Do we find that today in our nurses?

Yes, the women in England were drafted during WWII. One of them who posts in "The Good War" tells the story of how she became a signalling person because she joined up in a different service before she could be drafted in another service.

Couldn't find that book about Japanese nurses but will keep looking. I did read a fascinating review of a book by James Webb about MacArthur and one of his aides de camp. It is historical fiction but sounds very good. Titled "The Emporer's General". In the review, MacCarthur is referred to as "the American Caesar" which I do remember hearing before.

I finally learned how to spell Fillipino correctly and MacArthur. I knew there was something wrong there! LOL!

Lou - I put that site as a clickable in the heading as probably many people looking in may be interested in reading about the Fall of the Phillipines.

historybuf2 Have you been on Corregidor and seen this Light and Sound Show? Are any of the American nurses shown in the film? Thank you for that information - I wonder if the surviving nurses whose stories we are reading know about that.

AnnIf you find that book about the Japanese nurses do tell us about it. The wounded Japanese soldiers in the Phillippines were undoubtedly transported back to the mainland for treatment.

Interesting point about the spelling. Sometimes, as in the article in the heading, it is spelled with the "P" and other times I have seen it as you spelled it with an "F" - must be a reason for this. Anyone know?

Back to the book - before the nurses arrived at STIC (Santo Thomas Internment Camp), the approximately 3800 imprisoned civilians had set up committees, subcommittees, organized themselves into work details, classrooms, etc. to survive the boredom. As EN - the author - says "kill or be killed" is one way of looking at war, but survival as a prisoner is much more difficult because it requires an endurance, a cunning and a strength of will that fighting does not.

Whether that is true or not, I have no way of knowing - perhaps only prisoners of war can tell us. When our nurses arrived at STIC, they were isolated for a couple of months across the street; but later sent to the Main Camp where they fell into a routine of work which was to save their spirits which flagged at times.

They did have an experience of meeting with a real ANGEL - a former American Army nurse, married to a German and later widowed, had returned to Manilla and learning of the plight of the nurses, and being considered an ally of the Japanese due to her marriage to the German, was allowed to bring supplies of all kind to the nurses - what a treat that must have been for them! She would pull up in her big limousine, pull up her sun umbrella with her white gloves and big hat with her servants and hand over her bounty always with flowers on top!

You know I had some problems with the attitude toward this Huber woman? Was it because she was German or?? It seemed to me that she was Charity itself.

I was very impressed with their organizing, on their own, their entire lives, I think that says something about the human spirit, and it was nice of the Japanese government at the time which was running the camp to allow them to have so many extras, certainly not a paradise but what a contrast to the later Military supervisors! The Shanties and the buying of goods, that entire section is fascinating to me, shows you what humans can do when called upon.

Also I did notice how many times the word book entered into the memories, I'm surprised at how....relatively well....they were treated at first, but the horror to come certainly overshadowed it.

Still they found the, was it Huber woman funny looking?

Ginny

Here's something else I wondered and am not able to tell from the photos, did the Japanese leave the crucifix up at Santo Tomas?

Ginny

Ella,

One book about japanese Nurses in the Pacific

is

A princess Lily of the Ryukyus

ny Jo Nabuko Martin.

There were many women near the Japanese troops.

The Japanese Army maintained official brothels often using the Korean "Comfort Women" who were forced into supplying sex to the Japanese Army.

Women from the Phillipines were also used.

I wonder where you got the idea that there were no female Japanese Nurses (only male)

In fact most American "nurses" were male.

Idon't think the Japanese had any women comparable to our Red Cross women who operated canteens for the GI's overseas.

JIM - Most nurses in WWII were male? I didn't know that and certainly you wouldn't know that from reading this book. Here we are talking about trained NURSES, as opposed to medics who go out into the field and pick up the wounded. A quote from the book shortly after the nurses were captured:

The nurses stood mute and edgy. Up and down the line walked the Japanese, looking them over........it became clear that the eyes looking them over were filled with curiosity, not appetite. The sight of women in uniform was so alien to the Japanese that they seemed puzzled, indeed almost confused, by the nurses' presence. For them war was a test of manhood, and women had no business being under arms."

Comfort women, sad as it is to say, I can understand. Whether forced by the Japanese, or simply starving and needing food, the women followed the army. Wasn't it so in America during the Civil War? Not only "comfort women," but the armies then needed washer women, nursing women, etc.

I would like to know more about the female Japanese nurses - were they trained in institutions in Japan? Did they wear uniforms? Did the join the armies, navies, etc?

GINNY- often the book (or the memories of the women interviewed) stated the reason why the nurses were able to keep going during the roughest periods of imprisonment - the discipline of the two older and experienced nurses, Josie and Maud. I remember reading at one point some of the nurses actually rebelled against all orders and discipline - I can understand that. It would seem ridiculous at times to be following orders when you thought you might die the next day or the next year, but Maud Davison brought them to "heel" and all of them said that being connected to work and discipline saved them.

Can't tell either about the cross on Santo Thomas.

On the evening news tonight there was a feature story about a WWII nurse who served in Europe and was awarded the silver star..

In January, 1945, as some 270,000 Japanese troops dug in and readied themselves for the invasion, the troops of the American Sixth Army, part of the large invasion force assembled to liberate the Phillippines, established their first beachhead roughly a hundred miles north of Manila and the STIC.

By this time one of the survivors wrote "…..we had stood more than I had ever thought the human body and mind could endure."

At first light on the morning of February 3rd, the emaciated men, women and children of Santo Tomas heard planes overhead and a formation of eight dive bombers buzzed over the camp. One of the pilots tossed a small object from the cockpit - a pair of aviator's goggles with a note attached. "Roll out the barrel," it said, "Santa Claus is coming….."

Can anyone read this chapter without tears? The joy of deliverance as the tanks rolled in the gates and the soldiers' greeting - "Hello, folks!"

Cassie couldn't stop staring - "Those troops that night were like from another planet. They were so young, healthy-looking, pink cheeks filled out, you know, all of them. I felt as high as a kite."

The world was still at war in February 1945, but on the 19th, the nurses boarded aircraft for the long journey home and on February 24, the very tired and nervous women emerged into a bright California sun. The public relations arm of the government had been planning a huge ceremony for two weeks; it was a perfect occasion to win public support for the rest of the sacrifices demanded of the folks back home. There were celebrities and the crowds gathered, speeches were made, bands played, telegrams arrived and the press dogged their every move. One of the nurses stated "This all seemed like the movies…..people moving about dressed in pretty clothes."

They could not shake their sense of dislocation for weeks afterward and even after arriving home, the nurses felt dislocated; no one wanted to hear of their suffering, their disease, deprivations, struggles, malnutrition. The folks back home wanted heroes and so they put on a good show for awhile and did their duty for the hometown folks, when all they wanted was peace and quiet and a slow return to a normal life.

Perhaps many veterans of wars can relate to this paragraph from a notebook of the one of the nurses one year later - February 23, 1946:

Tonight I am alone. The first time in a long time. It is terrible to be so. Once upon a time I longed to be by myself but the war taught me comradeship - so I am afraid of being alone. To belong to no one gives one a lost feeling. Perhaps the war is not to blame but the advancing years are making their mark upon me. …..I have often wondered why I survived. Surely I am not necessary to anyone. There are so many who died that are needed by their family. Tomorrow will be a year since my return to the United States. Why? What purpose have I in life. It is as ashes in my mouth, so futile, so useless to myself as well as to others. It is not a question of adjustment, but of me being me.

.

What a sad comment on her life. Talk about tears. Sounds like she is still suffering from PTS and should be seeking help for same. Did any of the nurses go through any kind of therapy for their life in captivity? I seem to remember that the men on the Bataan death march were somewhat helped through psycologists at the VA hospitals. We have a friend who never did recover from that wicked Bataan death march. He has ended up in a VA mental ward. Just couldn't resolve what happened on that march and get on with his life. Poor soul!

I don't see how anybody gets over some of the things. There's a recent article in Newsweek about a massacre in Korea, and it was American troops which did the massacre. War is just hell. It's a miracle, considering the pride and egos of many of the countries today, we aren't at war with Iran or China or some other country. Russia worries me, trying democracy and starving. If we learn from history something dire may be about to take place.

When you read Non Fiction it's difficult to discuss, because you don't know what SLANT the author is taking. If it's a simple recitation of facts, then what can you say? I'm glad I read this book as I knew nothing whatsoever about any of this, the nurses. I thought the last photo in the book was so poignant, I just loved it. We need it in the heading.

Are any of these people alive that we could possibly write and ask to interview if they're online?

Ginny

There may be some nurses alive as the author was interviewing them about 3 years ago. How many of them are online is another question. My cousin who served in AAF is 78 years old and she is trying to use her new computer often. I do get emails from her. Maybe we could contact the author and ask her. The other thing that we could do, is just look for them by name in Yahoo's people search. When it finds someone, it also gives you the opportunity to search for an email address. Then, we could invite them to Chicago??? Just random thoughts here. My favorite part of the book was at the end where the nurses are in Washington D.C. for the memorial dedication and they are looking out for each other,making sure that no one gets lost or falls. That really made me tear up. What wonderful women!!

Ann Alden, I have just made a post in The Good War. I was thinking of posting it in this column, but it had nothing in regards to the nurses interned on the Philipenes, But it did have facts of the death march, and a friend.

Thanks for inviting me here,as there is a soft spot in my hart for military nurses.

Tedr, do post your comments here about the Bataan death march and your friend. Having already reading them, I think that they are pertinent to this discussion. Also, your story about the nurse who saved your life would be of interest here.

Ann-- I will post the coments about Mack the prisoner who went threw the death march in the Philipenes, and the navy nurses who pulled me threw my burns during W.W. 2 , but not at this time. I have disclosed more about it in the last few days than I have sence the war. I want to settle down, as I find myself thinking about it at night,and interdering with my sleep. I am not hurting, but thinking about in access . It has not been many years past when I relived it in my sleep. The pains of burns are unforgetable.

The only Veterian organixation I affiliate with is the Disabled Veterians. The only thing I do here is with donations, or volinteer work when needed.

I have made a post in theater of war Pacific. This will give you a little insite to many of us who served in the So. Pacific.

Oh,Tedr, I am sorry to have asked you to reflect too much on your experiences in WWII. Please don't be trying to satisfy me with your story if it upsets you. I wouldn't have thought of asking, had I known it was going to affect you so seriously. Please accept my apologies.

Ann - donot feel sorry. I am O. K. It is just recalling things I have not thought of in years. A very sad time I had set aside for the more plesent things in life, But I will repost the post in The good War.

I think this has been a good book to read but a hard book to discuss. I did enjoy it and hope to read others in the same genre but later. For now, I am returning to the "Good War" discussion.

Before she left for Michigan, Ella suggested that we put this discussion into storage. I agreed. Does Larry Hanna take care of this? If so, Mr Larry, will you do that?

Well, if we're through, I'd like to say I'm glad this book was suggested and brought up as I really knew nothing of the circumstances and learned quite a lot. I was fascinated by the behavior of people under seige there in the camp, their organization and cooperation with each other, it was a microcosm of humanity. The Japanese military, it seemed to me, (or maybe it was that particular commondant) were particularly and needlessly cruel and were a great contrast with the civilian Japanese management of the camp.

I thought the author did a very good job of showing the opinions of the different sides involved, of those rescued and those left behind. I thought the book started much too slowly but I think I now see what the author had in mind, a good job, I thought.

Ginny