Congratulations Barbara on this endeavor. This fascinating topic sounds very exciting. Personally, When God Was A Woman catches my fancy. We've done just about everything else, why not go to the ultimate?

Hi Barbara - I hope we will get a good few participants in this forum. Its a really good subject and a reminder of how far we have come as people in our own right.

I need plenty of notice to get a book as it can take 3 weeks if I have to get it from Barnes and Noble. If something goes wrong with the shipping it can take 6 weeks.

Carolyn

Barbara, thank you, thank you, thank you. So glad to have you as leader of this forum. WIll we really be finished in one month? As some of you know, we are reading Shaw's St Joan in another discussion group, and the role of woman in society has come to the fore. This forum,linking the change in woman's role to capitalism, ties in with the religious motif in St Joan, as the development of capitalism required a change in the definition of the value of work (labor), hence to Luther, then to Calvin and predeterimination of one's value exemplified by one's diligence, etc., leading Max Weber in 1905 to define the Protestant work ethic. Long chain there, but talk about unintended consequences!

OH my Carolyn had no idea -- hmmm maybe we could move the vote up to Friday before that weekend and give us still time to consider the topic but more time to purchase a book - yes since this is so early and we may only have a few participants let me do that...ahhh it makes the vote day Friday the 13th - I wonder if we do the 11th if that would be better - yes, I think so - that is still 7 days away that we are giving folks time to consider any other nominations.

It could be the first week we will become more dependent on the article from the web as the basis for the Forum if the book you order has not yet arrived. I feel certain that your contributions will be valuable though Carolyn since you have already been reading about this subject. And so if we do decide on a book other than the ones you have been reading we would sure like to hear from you about what you have learned as it relates to the questions at hand that will structure our Forum.

This will be a first for us - how we discuss the issue will be more about reflection on the issue while we further our understanding and learn of women's history using the writing of various scholarship of various authors.

Carolyn I forgot the name and author of the book you were reading that we can no longer purchase in the US - would you share that name and author again - what I am thinking is maybe that same author has an article on the internet and that would be a great seagway to your sharing some of what you have learned during your reading.

Mrs. Sherlock - we were posting at the same time and I just saw your post - aha - I need to peek into the St. Joan discussion don't I - I had not planned on reading the book but this will be another fascinating look into women's empowerment or lack of...thanks for the tip.

If you notice in deference to Carolyn the vote day has been moved up a bit. When it comes down to it we may all need a bit more time for a delivery if we don't want to pay the extra charges - so I changed the dates a bit on the vote - I think we will be just fine - it is not like the vote of the century here so that if we miss a book that someone knows about it will be OK - we already have a pretty good selection.

Well it looks like I need to add another read to my pile and I will be off to find a copy of St. Joan...thanks for the tip...!

The book is The Cause - A short history of the Womens movement in Great Britain. Author Ray Strachey. Its so well written and begins at the very roots of the struggle with Mary Wollstonecraft 1792. She wrote her great book "A Vindication of the Rights of Women." The author suggests that it was the French Revolution slogan Liberty Equality and Fraternity which inspired her to write her book.

The amazing thing is that she had a partner who did things men did not do. He minded children and did house chores while Mary wrote. He was also an educated man. Imagine what a stir his actions would have caused in 1792!

As the British women did not get the vote for hundreds of years after Mary Wollstonecraft got the ball rolling you can see why the Suffragettes went to such desperate lengths in the 1920's to get the vote. Women died for us that we might vote! Humbling isn't it? Anyone who does not exercise this right should be ashamed I think.

Carolyn

I've read Women and Madness; interesting thesis but Chessler seemed kind of shrill. The international perspective is especially interesting to me. So many threads to untangle...

Here's a very good link which lists women in the movement early on in the 1700's in Great Britian right up to the US women and gives short biographies of each of them. Then there are links to other information on the right plus links to other sites. Thought you might like to have this link to put at the top of the discussion. Early Women's Rights Activists

Are you all aware of the history of the statue in Congress that is dedicated to, I believe, four of the US leaders in the rights movement and what has happened to it over the years after it was installed in the Hall of Statues?? Here's a link to that and a good pic of the statue. One of the things mentioned in relation to the statue is that it has enough marble left to include Sojourner Truth who fought to Black Women's Rights and should be in this statue. Women's Rights Statue

A quote about statue

Title: Marble statue of three suffragists Annotation: The effort to memorialize the women who fought to expand women's voting rights began even before the suffrage campaign itself had ended. The statue was presented to Congress by the National Woman's Party on behalf of the women of the United States and was accepted by the Joint Committee on the Library on February 15, 1921. The Joint Committee directed that the statue be displayed temporarily in the Capitol Rotunda, before being removed in May of the same year to the Capitol Crypt--an area under the Rotunda. In 1996, a new campaign was launched to raise money to return the statue to the Rotunda, suggesting that the matter of making women and their historic struggle for suffrage visible continues into the present.

Anne - Those links would be very useful at the top of the discussion.

Carolyn

I am reading Womens Inhumanity to Women by Phyllis Chesler. Barbara I thought I would use Rays book as a tool during our forum and bring in relevant passages as the discussion rolls along.

Today we have a very timely debate in NZ. We have a group of men whining about the fact they feel they have lost their identity. This I think relates to the fact that NZ is governed by women. Women hold all the top positions in the land.

Anyhow there was an interview with a man who is holding a forum on mens issues in my particular city. Waitakere city. Well the emails that came in. The men were all upset because the interviewer ( a woman) suggested that they would like woman to assume their previous roles as doormats. Many men emailed in with very disparaging comments and poor Linda ( who was a Political commentator previous to becoming the present PMs Press Secretary for the first Labour Govt term) got it in the ear.

Then an Englishman phoned in and said before he came here he heard that NZ was ruled by women. (in a disparaging way) After that another mail came in blaming the loss of male identity as being a leading cause of suicide in young males. I believe the suicide rate is related to the extremely high rate of drug usage by young men. Many drugs cause clinical depression when the user is coming down from a high. Drugs particularly amphetamines are a real problem here.

I really do think there are many men still about who would like to go back to the days where women were at their beck and call and regarded as personal servants.

At my age after having 10yrs of singleness I have been reluctant to form another relationship as there are so many men about in my age group who still hanker after the old days. I would not have the freedom I do now to do my own thing and pursue my own interests. I was married at a young age and had children worked hard and there was no time for me to do anything for myself. I freely admit that at this point in time I am revelling in pursuing my own interests and making choices that only concern me without having to consider another person, I feel like its my time. These days women often do not marry til their late thirties so they have a long time to find themselves and to pursue their own interests before they settle down.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I agree completely. I would never again be a wife; it is so heady to be answerable only to myself as to what I do with my time, and when and where. Men who were born before the 60's are not able to make the adjustment.

I am least attracted to Chessley's book and When God was a Woman. Religion has never been a strong interest of mine, and Chessley's Women and Madness was a disappointment although I can't remember specifics, it was 30 years ago that I read it.

That to my mind is a trap. A blind alley. With Nature as her domain, why would Woman want more.

Mom, we love you.

Barbara, I think we are invisible to a certain extent. And I think I am guilty of the same bias. When I see someone with grey hair, I don't feel attracted to seek them out. My expectations are that they will be boring, long-winded, etc., etc. The problem is that I am not this senior citizen on the inside, I am young, hip, with-it, sexy, someone who is in the forefront of fashion and full of exciting ideas. We here at SeniorNet are known by our words and ideas, our inner selves. My exterior self matters not at all to you nor does yours matter to me. But this is an artificial world we have created, one which we need. I took some time away from SeniorNet for a while and didn't realize until I was back how very much I had missed you all. This is not male-bashing, but few of the men I have met in recent years looked beyond my surface; it is hard not go overboard when that rare man comes along who is sensitive enough to see the real me. Thank GOd we have SeniorNet.

I regard SN as a Community. We need a community like this of people who must be modern thinking as they all have PCs and some of us are very savvy with it. People of our generation who have embraced with enthusiasm new technology.

I don't have any neighbours who are my age who use the PC or are interested in book discussions etc. Young people who come in here are surprised at our lively discussions and because they can't see us they can have much better and less judgemental discourse with us.

Like you say, I do really Thank God for Senior net. (And for all those volunteers who look after the discussions, post graphics and photos etc for us)

As a kiwi, it astounds me more kiwis have not found this site. We don't have any half as good for seniors. Its lovely to cyber mix with others from different nations. It gives lots of different perspectives on issues.

I found Senior Net while surfing some years ago and have come in every day ever since.

Carolyn

Hee Haw - three of the books in the heading arrived today - just went to pick up my mail as well as a package delivery by Fed Ex - and the books by Schneir, Chesler, and Freedman are in my hands -

Hurrah !!!

Now to cram - or at least skim and read a chapter here and there - the rest of the afternoon and night are now booked!!! I will share what I find as I go along...

Whew do I have my work cut out - it was hard to put one book down to go to the next...

Miriam Schneir - Feminism: the Essential Historical Writings is just that The book I have was published in the 1990s although the original was published in 1972. There are a series, an anthology, of letters, speeches, articles by 40 authors both men and women speaking out about women's issues - from Abigal Adams to Mary Ritter Beard 1876-1958.

The progression of authors parallels the progression of the struggle as well as pointing out the injustices along the way. The book indicates that suffrage was a necessary by-pass "fought on terms defined by men within the strongholds of Government" and that "contrary to popular belief suffrage was not the sole concern of the old feminism movement."

From other reviews I learned that many of the writings in the book were buried by, as Miriam Schneir portends, the male dominated literary tradition. What is interesting is the many men who contribute articles about the subjection of Women - like John Stuart Mill, Frederick Douglass, William Lloyd Garrison, Henrik Ibsen to name a few.

Phyllis Chesler Woman's Inhumanity to Woman I found to be hard hitting - certainly filled with angst and in spots difficult to read because the issues hit home - and yet, when the same issues are stated coming from a man they take on a different look -

Example from the book when she asks a male friend - "What immediately comes to mind when I say the phrase, women's inhumanity to women?" He said, "Nothing much, Jealousy, maybe."

"And what do you think of when I say man's inhumanity to man?" "Oh" he responded, "that's a big one. War. Fratricide. Slavery. Greed. Evil."

He does not sound as if he feels personally responsible for the existence of evil in the world."

I must say that I fell right into the trap while reading - I not only felt responsible for the way we treat each other but, I thought she was scolding - I can see this will be a challenging read but a necessary read.

Estelle B. Freedman No Turning Back - Home Page because I purchased this used I ended up with a lovely hard copy - without a graphic of superwoman on the cover - She offers the history of the term Feminism which was great - "First coined in France in the 1880s as féminisme, it spread through European countries in the 1890s and to North and South America by 1910. The term combined the French word for woman, femme, and -isme, which referred to a social movement or political ideaology...féminisme connoted that women's issues belonged to the vanguard of change.

I have not spent as much time browsing this book yet, but the parts are addressing Gender and Power - Woman's Rights, Women's Work, Women's domestic Labor, Workers and Mothers, Gender and Violence, Women's Creativity, Not Turning Back, Women and Politics.

This book is not as in your face personal as the Phyllis Chesler book - the Chesler book will challenge us to look at behavior we have experienced - the Freedman book is about the movement and points out that what was private - abortion, violence, beauty, body image - is now part of the fierce public debate - the Schneir book is an anthology of voices from the past who have spoken out about the issues and are representative of the history of "féminisme."

So far the last book on our list has not arrived at my door step and so I cannot give my opinion of the book...

Tomorrow is VOTE day - we are trying to choose a book that we all share as a basis for the discussion - after we choose the book than each week there will be an additional article linked to a web site that addresses the various aspects of Women's Power in a Democratic Society.

We may be a small group but, we are a group that is willing to look at our role in the vanguard of change - Hurrah for us - looking at change takes courage and this is a courageous group who want to understand as we all play our role in the new day...

I vote for Womens Inhumanity to Women as its the only book apart from the one I first mentioned I could get hold of in time for the proposed start of the forum.

I am surprised at the lack of interest in this forum. Is it not PC in the US to talk about womens issues at this time?

Carolyn

I'm here. Haven't voted because none of the choices were particularly appealing. I'll look into the Chessler book, see if I can overcome my earlier feelings about her. When I read her book before, it was in a seminar where we read one book each week and then discussed it. The Dollmaker was another of the books we read, can't remember the rest, but it gave us a foundation for discussion from different perspectives. Our discussion leader lived in a women's commune in San Francisco, and she said, at one point, that there was a strong hetero-sexual bias in our group! True!

Sounds like the same story. I didn't see the TV version. This story was so enchanting, the early part about the life in Appalachia. The row housing was in Michigan, her husband took the family north so he could work in the factories. I'll go along with Chessler.

what a surprise! for a long time i've wanted to exchange with other women about "woman's inhumanity to woman." never expected to see this at seniornet which i rarely visit since it seems so focused on the past.

i'd be interested in participating in the discussion with women who are currently involved in women's organizational activity. mine are new york gray panthers and the transition network [www.thetransitionnetwork.com to answer questions on what it is].

yours, naomi dagen bloom

thanks, barbara, for your welcome. your reference to gray panthers as an organization of the past is one i hear often. a small group of us in new york city have re-activated the local chapter. i believe there is also one in austin.

as i indicated, i'd like to be in a discussion of chesler's book with other women who are currently working in voluntary women's organizations.

The Transition Network was started 4 years ago here in NYC by women who believed that "retirement" needed a new spin. we have various kinds of peer groups that include re-wiring after leaving the everyday work world, books, finding economical forms of entertainment to enjoy as small groups. and we develop volunteer projects within ongoing organizations (public schools, girl scouts) in which we work as teams. i'll bet there could be one in austin; chapters have started in chicago and other cities.

cityworm: Welcome! Your Transition Network sounds very exciting. Do you know if it has migrated to the San Francisco area? Maybe I could work with some of the SeniorNetters who live around here to get it going. Who would be a good contact person to discuss this? Can you give pass along my email address? circleofvictoria@yahoo.com. Thanks. It will be really interesting tosee how this discussion goes with the geographic spread we have. Barbara, We haven't had spring yet; the fruit trees have all bloomed and roses are everywhere, but Iam looking at grey skies and possible rain, again.

Welcome Cityworm to books.

As you have been told I have been coming to Senior net for around five years now. I live in NZ and I am retired early due to ill health although I am not that far off our retirement age.

I am a widow with four grown children. My interests are of course my two little bichon frise dogs, My PC, Books, and Global affairs. I care for my four year old grandaughter for half a day every day while my daughter works at our local library. My daughter is also a bookworm.

The book discussions we have in SN are very well led and the participants all contribute a lot and besides that are all very nice people.

I hope you will enjoy this discussion and join in many more in the future.

Carolyn

Yey, Horselover, giddiup!

My friend Ruth gave me two more books last night which will add to our discussion. Sexual Politics by Kate Millet and another For Her Own Good by Barbara Ehrenreich and Deidre English. Ruth was active for many years Politically as a delegate at conferences for the equivalent of your Democrat Party, Was a Union Representative and Ran a Community Law office. Her hours of work do not give her time to come in to SN but she is contributing by lending me the books.

Carolyn

Count me in as a participant for the June 1 Forum " Women's Inhumanity To Women". I am purchasing the book from the amazon.com website. It is available in both used and new editions at a reasonable price. Just a suggestion for those interested in price.

Also have just purchased a used copy of the book from Amazon. As a 72-year old I am worried that the young women of today are unaware of the struggle for those things they take for granted -- credit cards, mortgages, opening up of job opportunities. The current action in Congress to restrict women in the military (after all it is a volunteer force!)brings home my time in the Air Force during the Korean War when we were limited to administrative/medical jobs.

Not to mention those who gave their lives in order to obtain the vote! Nowdays we find women who do not appreciate the sacrifices of their forbears and cannot be bothered to exercise that hard won vote!

Carolyn

I never married and worked for the Federal Government (after four years in the Air Force during the Korean War) until I retired in 1998. Can remember many times being told that women couldn't be hired -- took geology in college and was told by the Grad student that I would just be a secretary for Standard Oil. Often wonder what happened to this man and what a shock the 60s/70s must have been to him. When I bought my first house in the 70s, the mortgage company couldn't sign me up fast enough as they had been sued for discrimination. But I also was at fault believing when I was in high school that this was my lot in life and not expecting anything better. Although I did get in trouble in gym class for complaining that the boys had a golf team and the girls didn't. I live in Wyoming.

I am a native of New York City and a transplant to San Diego, California. I have lived here for the past 25 years and enjoy the freedom of the Southern California climate.

I am a retired Registered Nurse/Nurse Educator and worked in this profession for 40 years. Needless to say Nursing has always had their share of problems with the male dominated health care system heirarchy .

I have always been a feminist in my beliefs and look forward to this upcoming forum on the Sisterhood and its problems.

Sometimes we need them to help us organize our discussion but it's been such a long time now that women have been staking out their own territory that we all have our consciousness raised and stories to tell or we wouldn't be here. I have a book that meant something to me. . actually two books by Miriam Nelson. STRONG WOMEN STAY YOUNG and another like it that offer exercise routines with dumbbells and weights for women who even in their eighties benefit. Who would have thought that women in our age group could habitually lift weights for exercise and strength. who would have thought that we were even INTERESTED in STRENGTH. I've read many books on the subject of women in our culture already and feel claustrophobic at having to depend on another one for guidance. If I can ride free in this discussion without having to be herded along with some book I'd be happy to participate. . . Claire

No. I have not returned to New York City on a visit for many years. The friends of my youth have died. Classmates are retired and scattered across the country. The only relative remaining there is a cousin.

As to the attitudes of Physicians 50+ years ago to the present most still expect the "handmaiden " role. They will use the reference of "my nurse" will give you the information. This individual referred to is a medical assistant not a nurse.

When I called to make an appointment for a medical visit once the receptionist referred me to a "Karen" the Nurse . I said to her " you mean the medical assistant don't you? " It the same she said. You had better believe it is not the same said I. I should know I'm a retired RN. With that response her lips were sealed.

As to teaching successive generations of Nurses, I taught at the beginning levels of the program. Building a strong foundation was my goal. I would often tell the students that the secret of caring successfully for the patient after learning the basic skill was to care about each patient.

In the last semester of the Nursing program students take courses " Team and Leadership in Nursing". Here they focus on working as a member of the Health Care Team and the problems within the system.

Although I read that women now make up 40% of the Medical School applicants the problems of the treatment of women in the Health Care System continues.

A new book was just published a few days ago entitled "Nursing Against The Odds" by Suzanne Gordon, 489 pages. I plan to purchase the book in the near future from Amazon. com

Nurses were discouraged years ago from joining Unions in an attempt to meet their financial needs and improve their working conditions. Unions were considered " unprofessional" and Nurses were encouraged to join their their professional organizations. However, the almost all female leadership there were not heavy handed enough. Strikes were considered an unprofessiona action to take for many years. Things have changed presently. However, here when Nurses strike for better working conditions and salary the hospitals they work for retaliate by locking them out for a number of days and hire substitute per diem Nurses .

Nurses are forced to work overtime after a ten hour day if the hospital is short of staff.

Many women make other career decision or change their careers because of the shabby treatment and disrespect they encounter or learn about from Nurses.

A WONDERFUL SURPRIZE Phyllis Chesler has agreed to take time from her very busy schedule and pop into our discussion sometime in June!

Phyllis is in the middle of writing and putting together another book - in spite of her very busy work schedule she has agreed to take time from her work to pop in with a Blog...Phyllis Chesler would like to have an idea where we are in our conversation before she "pops" in...this is so wonderful isn't it to have someone writing about women's issues speaking directly to us...this is as good as it gets here on SeniorNet...!

Here is the first e-mail from Phyllis Chesler agreeing to add her voice to our conversation...

Dear Barbara:

How wonderful! Thank you so much for using my book. When will you need me to "pop in'? I am on deadline for a new book but will try and make the time to do this. Where are you located geographically? How many members do you have? May I see how the discussion is going before I say something? Please advise.

Best, Phyllis

My book arrived!

Barbara, I haven't started to read it yet. Take your time. That moss sounds dreadful. Good luck.

My book arrived today. will begin reading shortly.

NZ Women received the vote in September 1893. The first woman Mayor was elected in that same year in November in the Borough of Onehunga. Pretty progressive for a tiny nation.

Carolyn

I have a niece who graduated from high school a few weeks ago. Last year, another girl in her class decided that my niece was after her boyfriend. She wasn't, but that didn't seem to matter. The girl kept threatening to beat up my niece. She would call her at home and threaten her.

Finally, my sister=in=law talked with her uncle who was a superintendent in another school and asked him what they could do. He told her that bullying in school was not allowed. She needed to thalk with the school principal and let him know what was going on and that Jackie was being bullied. She did and the principal called both girls in and told them that it would not be tolerated. The girl would be suspended from school if the bullying continued.

It turned out okay because the girl found out that the boyfriend had been calling Jackie, she had not been calling him.

Anyway, my point is, that bullying is not being tolerated in schools and I think this is a good thing.

Judy

Girls are indulging in cell phone bullying. This is extremely hard to police and stop. These are girls aged from 11 - 16. The police have been involved in some of these cases and the cell phone companies have cooperated by disconnecting the cellphones of the bullies. Some of the bullies however cannot be caught. I think teenage girls can be more vicious with mental and verbal abuse than boys.

I do think women can be their own worst enemies in the workplace. I am ashamed to say that I avoided all women workplaces because of the cattiness and petty jealousies that seemed to go along with this environment. I just could not be bothered with the angst of it all.

The happiest position I ever held was in an all male environment. I was the only female. It was in a competitive environment but the guys all helped me and one took me under his wing and taught me everything he knew. He was a much younger male too.

We should ask ourselves why as women we cannot seem to be supportive to each other in a competitive environment.

Carolyn

Teen Girls In Gangs

Since teen girls bullying techniques involve indirect aggression to other girl victims as in school situations; What about teen girls in street gangs who participate with boys in direct physical aggression towards victims?

Also, do all girl street gangs exist who participate in direct physical aggression toward other street gangs of girls ?

Carolyn - my experience in the work place was very much like yours. Three times I worked in an all male environment, one of them civil service with only military men around. I was always treated with the greatest respect. And I learned to admire men for the way they tolerate each other. I really treasured those job when later, working with women, I encountered the same cattiness, and some not-so-petty jealousies among women. I was horrified and disappointed.

Even when there appeared to be a net-work, women bringing others up behind them, they were nothing in the end but cut-throat advisories.

My comment about the girl gangs. Back in my youth, I never thought about girls as forming a gang. But they did exist without the title.

When I was a freshman in high school, in the late 40s the 'hazing' event consisted of writing with lipstick on the face of the newcomers. Pictures, words, whatever. It was not vicious, or harmful. We walked about a block from our large high school to the main street to catch the city buses to go home....walking along in front of department stores, and shops.

As I walked along, books in arm, face decorated with lipstick marks, several girls, talking tough, came up behind me and started pushing me. I tried to move away, and one pursued me, pushing harder, and tried to trip me, and was calling me names. I knew they were not students (identified as dropouts, later), and I addressed the pusher, and told her to stop, and asked why she was doing that? Her answer was to haul off and sock me in the jaw. I landed up against a department store plate glass window, and slid to the sidewalk. Stunned, not really hurt.

She and her friends hustled off down the sidewalk and out of sight, laughing. It didn't occur to me until much later, that not a single one of the adults in the crowd did one thing, or said one word. They didn't even help me get up off the sidewalk. They just watched, drop-jawed, in amazement. I caught the bus and went home.

Florry - I'd say girl gangs exhibit physical aggression toward anyone, including innocent individuals, that they think they can get the best of...including other street gangs of girls.

Sun

Is a token white 60 something male eligible to join in? I have the book.

Why not Bill! A male perspective would be interesting. Heaven forbid we should be sexist in this discussion particularly!

Carolyn

Hi Sun - I think we met once in Round Rock at a Seniornet luncheon - don't you live over in Taylor...so glad to see your post...This issue does bring up some childhood memories doesn't it...

Kiwi that is one I had not heard of "cell phone bullying" wow - and you are so right, working with women in the workplace is like walking through a bed of nails sometimes.

Florence great question - since most of us have never interviewed or looked into how girl street gangs operate this to most of us is a new side of our community isn't it...

Just noticed your post Bill - by all means join the conversation - as Kiwi [Carolyn] has already welcomed you - glad you found us...

I was so taken with this whole idea of our need to belong which is exploited by some girls and women who form cliques that exclude others, create backstabbing rumors, whisper, tell secrets, make fun of another girl, act nice but behind her back her trust is betrayed - I never knew this was a form of Bullying. Lately I have been standing up and saying how I feel but I am not good at it and come across as angry [Heaven forbid that as a women I should be angry...right!]

I have observed it many times as a youngster and as an adult - I was usually uncomfortable and didn't know how to handle myself - but I was a loner and convinced myself because of my personal story I couldn't fit in anyhow so I might just as well do my own thing.

I think back now and realize I had only a few friends but knew lots of kids and later I did the same thing as an adult - I have one terrific good friend and lots of acquaintances - I have found that many have looked at me as a mother figure and that makes me uncomfortable as well but the backbiting is worse.

I had to skim through the book again because I did not remember how often the author referred to physical bullying that Stigler mentioned is taken to task in schools now - I think I shut off in my head physical bullying among girls since, growing up the saying among the women in our family was not to act like a "Fishwife" and looking down their noses at anyone who was unkempt, their hair uncombed, wearing soiled or ripped housedresses while working or, if they fought in public or, if they were physical to another, they were considered to be acting like a "Fishwife."

Its funny because now that I think of it, the very behavior, dress etc. that made someone a fishwife in the eyes of the women in my family was acceptable and admired in a hard working man...hmmmm

I do think many women judge other women on their appearance. Men do also. If I was plain in appearance would I have been treated so well by the men I worked with? I am not being vain when I say this as until recently I had a very poor self image. This was given to me by a beautiful mother who constantly criticised my appearance. Nothing I did was right. My weight was not right, my new hair style and colour was not right and all done in a very incidious way. My love for casual clothes was not right. For instance "I liked your hair the other way you had it. I liked your blonde hair not this brown. Youve put on a bit of weight"

It took my best friend to really sit down and tell me that when I thought I was so ugly and so fat it was the exact opposite. Mothers can be very cruel to daughters whether its conscious or subconscious,

Carolyn

After I completed my last post I turned on our National Radio and lo and behold they were interviewing two women who were present at the huge womens convention on Womens rights in 1975.

Now they are having another convention about Did we achieve our goals and Where to from here.

The wonderful thing about this conference is that again they have sponsorships to enable low income women and seniors to attend at no charge . This way they encompass the whole spectrum of women in our society. The organisers say they are full up now and many women who attended the 75 conference will be also attending the thirty year reunion conference as well as young women who were babes in arms in 75.

I hope we get a full report on the conference on National Radio. I am sure that we shall.

The conference commissioned the Department of Statistics to compile a book for the conference which will be able to also be purchased by others. The book will have statistics on womens status in 75 compared with statistics in 2005. I must get that book! I want to know how far we have really come since women rose up in 75 seeking equality in employment and in every other facet of life. I don't think any conference will be as exciting and life changing as the 75 conference.

Carolyn

C'mon Bill - lets have some male input.

carolyn

I just learned of the discussion today and have just joined the forum. I started simply to depart peacefully because I won't be able to make time to read the book. I didn't understand you had already been reading the book during May.

However, I think I would be remiss to other women if I didn't offer up an observation just based upon skimming the last few days of posts. I was dismayed to find so many anti-women comments by women, frankly. It is as though the book came to life in front of me. Women belittling other women with a lack of objectivity and fairness, as I see it. I was simply amazed.

I lived my entire career in male-dominated working environments and have, apparently, experienced a vastly different world than the other posters have. I was an Air Force officer for seven years and served in Intelligence in Southeast Asia during the Vietnam War. I taught in the Special Operations School in Florida. I became a Squadron Commander of a WAF Squadron and got to see first-hand how women were treated when rank was no barrier.

The working environment males create vis-a-vis pettiness, bullying, gossip and competitiveness is not different from what I have read of experiences with more female-dominated employment via the other posts. If, as a civilian, the military men were respectful, solicitous etc, it is because you were not competing with them for promotions and assignemnts. It is because you were not in their direct chain-of-command and didn't fundamentally matter other than you were a woman they worked with. You were not military. You were also seeing them in a hybrid environment.

I had good superiors in the USAF; I had bad superiors; I had mediocre ones. There were some men who would stand up for a female officer or enlisted person. They were very, very few. The working environment was endemically anti-female. I cannot stress that enough. It is one thing to be an outsider, as you are if you are a civilian. It is quite another to be on the inside.

I experienced very few problems with other female officers. They were the ones you could turn to.

I left the USAF for graduate school and went on to a career in higher education as a faculty member and administrator. This is a slightly less male-dominated environment. However, it is very male dominated in the upper reaches. I had good male bosses; bad male bosses; average male bosses.Gossip, pettiness, competitiveness etc abounded. In that area, there was no difference between Academia and the military.

I was sexually harrassed in both arenas. In the military, that was before there was a term like sexual harrassment for it. It was simply what you put up with. You took your career in your hand if you complained in Academia.

Over the years in Higher Ed, I worked for 3 women. One a Vice President for Academic Affairs and two Deans. They were superlative bosses and rank among my best career experiences. They only asked that you come in and do your job to the best of your ability. They didn't mind if you were smart; they didn't mind if you were younger than them; they didn't mind anything as long as you got the job done.

Are there bad female bosses? Yes. Are there mediocre ones? Yes. But are there good ones? Most definitely.

I will go peacefully on my way as I started to originally. What stopped me was the debt I owe to all the women who came before me. The ones who wrote the books; the ones who lived the lives as the only women in a career, a specialty .. so that I could. In my turn, I also trail-blazed for those who followed me.

I don't want to be a disruptive person here but it was not possible for me to hear what is being said and not step up to the plate.

With apologies to the moderator for the long post and stating opinions that do not fit with the group's perspective,

Suzz

Suze you were most fortunate. I have been bullied by my boss for no other reason than I had four children and she could not have any.

I was badmouthed by other mothers in the neighbourhood because I was working full time out of the home in the early seventies when most Mums here stayed at home or worked part time.

I have also worked in an environment where I saw women knifing other women in the back ( figuratively) to obtain promotion over a competitor.

As the book says women are more likely to be underhanded in the way they show aggression.

Men are more open in their dislike or aggression in the work place. I prefer to know my enemy! Maybe now things are better in the workplace. I sure hope so!

I do have two close women friends. I prefer to have two very good friends than a pile of acquaintances. My best friend and I have been friends since age 11. I am not unloveable LOL

Being aware of how women can be their own worst enemy is a good thing. It may make us rethink some of what we consider to be harmles behaviour.

Carolyn

Suzz -- If you return to this Discussion again, understand that I would likely agree with you....your experience with men in the Military arena would have been very different from mine. Yes, you were competing with them, and I certainly was not.

In fact, in fairness, I will confess that I was married to an AF man at the time, and of course, the people I worked with knew that. That circumstance did NOT apply to the other two occasions when I worked as the only woman surrounded by men. One was before marriage, and the other, after divorce.

I do know enough about the military to understand your experience may have been most unpleasant at times. Still I wonder why you mentioned women that were "superlative bosses" only in the Academic arena? Perhaps there were there none in the Military, because a certain amount of aggression is part of training. Anyone can be a bully...a man OR a woman. Don't you imagine that some of those guys may have felt threatened by you?

Personally, I like men, they make good friends. But for heaven's sake, I have very good women friends, too.

I may not belong in this discussion. I am too comfortable with myself.

Sun

This morning in the interview about the conference ( I mentioned it in an earlier post) one thing that was discussed was that women felt obliged to do it all!

What has happened is that to be a stay at home mum is not regarded as being of any importance and somehow demeaning. There is now a lot of pressure for women to take up professions while their children are still small.

The original womens movement came into being so that women could have a choice but it has turned into an obligation.

Carolyn

In terms of dominance, there is no second place. Women, therefore, are not the second sex. We aren't in the running at all. Those of us who aspire take on the characteristics of the leaders; "I am not you but I can be just as much of an SOB as you. And to prove it, I will stomp other women into the mud." These pseudo-males are very uncomfortable when other women are not as venal as they; it is not playing the game by the right rules.

Should a woman be:

President of the United States? Billy Graham's replacement? Boxing's heavyweight champion?

No!

It just ain't in the cards.

horselover and Carolyn, I disagree. I think "feminism" made it "socially acceptable" for women to work outside the home, even if it wasn't a financial necessity. But I do not think it made degrading for a women to make the choice to stay home as a homemaker and mother. Even in my younger days, I'm 69, I did both. I worked outside the home after my children were in school, but it was to augment their college fund, not as a necessity for living. After the children were grown, I worked for a while because I enjoyed it. Our daughters all work, and only one works as a financial necessity (she's single). They don't work outside the home because they think they'd feel "degraded" if they didn't.

Women who choose to be homemakers, housewives...why do all these words have such negative connotations - I really HATE that! Anyway, women who choose to stay home can certainly be boring - so can women who work outside (or any man for that matter). But there is a huge world out there of things to do that are interesting, educational, and helpful to one's self and the community. There are an incredible number of things that would never happen if it weren't for those women who choose to stay home - all sorts of volunteer work, community service, museum docents, hospital volunteers, League of Women Voters, library volunteers, school helpers, etc., etc., etc.

Suzz, please stay. Your viewpoint is always welcome. And, as noted in the heading, we always like to have varying opinions, and they are to be accepted, not necessarily without argument, but respectfully and thoughtfully.

Sun, I'm comfortable in my own skin, too, and have had a fairly uneventful life. But I plan to lurk around here, and certainly will chime in from time to time. As a woman with four daughters and two granddaughters, I'll certainly have opinions.

Bill, why shouldn't a woman be President of the US, or head up a major religious organization? Maybe not a heavyweight champion boxer, but yuck! (IMHO). Maybe not president in 2008, but I'm sure it'll happen, and maybe even in my lifetime.

Bill, what a way to intorduce yourself! I'm sure your statments were meant to be inflamatory. Try to convice us why a woman wouldn't be suitable for each of those positions.

Men and cats rule--non--inflamatory intended words.

Great we do have some differing opinions - wonderful - I think so much of our opinions are based on our own experience - However - our experience is colored by how we were trained to think about ourselves...

Let me just quote the first paragraph or so from the Introduction to the book we are using as the basis of this Forum...

"Once upon a time, a long time ago, I believed that all women were kind, caring, maternal, valiant, and ever-noble under siege-- and that all men were their oppressors. As everyone but a handful of idealistic feminists knew, this was not always true. Living my life and writing this book have helped me to understand that, like men, women are really human beings, as close to the apes as to the angles, capable of both cruelty and compassion, envy and generosity, competition and cooperations.

One of the reasons it is difficult for a women to acknowledge that women -- including herself -- are aggressive and cruel is because there are not socially acceptable traits for women to have and because a women's best friends and confidants are usually other women. Most women befriend each other, create female "families" in times of peace and in times of war. Women expect to be emotionally "groomed" [listened to, sympathized with] by those women who most resemble themselves. this is why "difference" [in appearance or ideas] is so threatening to most women who rely upon shoulder-to shoulder egalitarianism and "sameness" among their female intimates, rather than male-like hierarchies with a leader and a chain of command. To women, even the smallest "difference" signals potential abandonment; to men. it merely clarifies an accepted social arrangement...

Page 477 - Each woman must understand that women have probably been internalizing sexist values for thousands of years; this value structure cannot disappear immediately. This means that no individual woman is responsible for solving this immense problem by herself, or even in her lifetime. I would like women to understand that the practice of sisterhood is a psychological and ethical discipline.

Page 476 - Women often confuse a difference of opinion, character, or circumstance with unfair criticism and rejection. Women are not used to remaining connected to those with whom they disagree or who are different in other important ways. Certainly many mothers, daughters, sisters, and close friends struggle over this. To many women criticism signifies disconnection and abandonment, the transformation of the Other as Good Mother into the Other as Evil Stepmother."

Boy does some of what Phyllis Chesler hit hard - and to think of it as criticism of women was often my reaction as I was reading until I stepped back and realized that women have their way of coping in life -

The difference as I see it is, those who have more freedom and justice cope differently than those who have less regardless gender, class or race. Then I have to think back how men acted when they did not want to be ruled by others - the organized a revolution - women have changed their legal status and now women continue the work to fit into the shoes the law is allowing us.

We still have some of our freedoms curtailed by law and by being judged by social acceptable behavior but at least, in most Democratic nations, we are not the property of a man as we were as recently as 130 years ago.

OK another post will follow - your posts are just wonderful and deserve some comment...

It certainly has changed since I was a young woman. Here if a woman left home other than to be married she was considered to be up to no good and to be a loose woman. I was not allowed to visit my fiance at his apartment without a chaperone for instance.

However within the decade of me having to experience this type of restriction my younger sisters were able to leave home and live in an apartment with mixed sex flatmates with no comment at all. When things changed here they changed really quickly.

When my husband died and I was 46 I had never lived alone in my entire life. I think the longest we had been apart was three weeks because of work committments and at that time I had children to occupy me and I also had my husbands older brother who lived on the same rural property and took his meals with us. I had led a very sheltered life.

After the initial loneliness I grew to appreciate being able to make choices without considering another person. I guess I am having what others experience as young women at the opposite end of my lifetime. It sounds selfish I know but I am really enjoying being a bit self indulgent!

carolyn

One of the best bosses I had was an Austrian woman in her late fifties early sixties. She demanded high standards was blunt and brusque but you knew where you stood with her at all times.

She also defended her Department to the last against the Male management. I can rememember the Assistant DC coming down to our office and having a fit and calling us a Mickey Mouse outfit. The problem had it turned out in the end begun in his office. Our boss was magnificent! He had to back right off.

This lady was also scrupulously fair in her formal assessments and pushed "her girls" as hard as she could for promotion.

Why I admired and respected this woman was her honesty and integrity and her determination not to back off to appease Male management. She was also brilliant if you had genuine personal tragedies, illness in the family, deaths etc.

Everyone in our Department loved this little woman ( she was diminutive) and everyone outside our Department was terrified of her!

Carolyn

Bill: I disagree with your sentiment about women in top leadership roles.

Yes, it certainly can be 'in the cards" for women with leadership ability with opportunity in a Democratic society.

For examples: Condalessa Rice our present Secretary of State, a women with excellent leadership abilty doing a good job in her present role. Add Hillary Clinton, former First Lady and now New York State Senator.Both are accomplished leaders and both are possible candidates for US President in the years ahead.

At the minimum, I would like to see either woman mentioned above as a Vice Presidental candidate in the years ahead. I would vote for either woman as a candidate for Vice President or US President.

As to clergy, the Episcopal church has ordained women as priests now for the past few years.No doubt in the years ahead they could advance to higher leadership roles in the church.

As to sports, young women are rising stars presently in basketball, baseball, golf, tennis. Some even want to play on the football team. There are women who team coach both male and female teams and they are very sucessful in their leadership roles.

An open mind and attitude is important in a Democratic society to advance opportunities for women.

As to "cats " when SPAYED, they do not "rule the world ".

We are in election mode here and it looks like a Male Chauvinist is running neck and neck with our PM in the party stakes. He has few women in his party list. Par for the course.

It will be a step back I think if this man gets in!

Carolyn

One thing we have not mentioned here and the most rabid of feminists would not like to talk about, is the way that hormones affect many womens perceptions and emotions.

I know that the week before I menstruated I would get super sensitive and could become tearful with not much provocation.

How much do our hormones affect us in our working lives. Some women get unreasonably angry with PMT. If this is not treated women can become like vixens.

Now I am post menopausal I know I have much more even emotions.

I have spoken to many women who say they know at times they are being unreasonable but they just cannot help it and its almost like their emotions are overuling their heads.

I know men will seize on this topic as a reason why they think women are not suited to important positions such as President or CEO. However this is only a proportion of women and there are ways to treat this imbalance of hormonal activity if the woman is prepared to recognise the problem.

Now please do not attack me for what I feel is a very real issue.

Carolyn

Another change in my opinion as I get older is that I place a lot more value on the work those mothers who choose to stay at home do with the upbringing of their children.

I watch my daughter who stayed home for 7 years with her children and is now just going back into the workforce. She is easing in gradually only working part of the day for now. She has done such a great job with my two grands. I take my hat off to her and know that my kids did miss out on what my daughter has been able to give her children in time and teaching life skills.

Staying home in a middle class family does require many material sacrifices but I have to say I see the impact on the life of my grandchildren and I am glad for them.

Wouldn't be great if every mother had that choice. Career or family by choice not necessity.

Carolyn

Barbara it was a woman Mayor. Our first women PM was in the nineties and it was a coup. A sitting male Prime Minister was voted out with a no confidence vote in the caucus and in the Party. This can happen - a change of PM in the middle of a term.

I am unhappy to say that the first Women PM headed a Govt who brought in a Draconian Labour Bill which effectively smashed the Unions and dropped wages almost overnight. Unemployment was rife and employment conditions were abyssmal. It was under the terms of this woman PM that we experience the worst conditions we have ever experienced in my memory. The man she deposed was a moderate and when he retired from Parliament said the Shipley admin was the most mean spirited administration he had ever been involved with which says quite a lot.

This woman also was behind the bill which lowered the drinking age to 18 and has left a legacy of real problems with teenage binge drinking. There are moves afoot to restore the legal age to 20.

My thought on the actions of this PM is that she was only a figure head who would woo women voters but others really ran the show.

Our Present PM has tried to be fair to both business and workers but has passed some unpopular liberal legislation. This may be her undoing. While many are liberal thinking here in fiscal matters there is still some things NZ voters of both sexes are not yet ready to accept.

As far as personal presence and strength I think Helen Clarke would be one of the strongest and most intelligent PMs we have ever had. Politics is a business where you have to be pretty tough to make it to the top. She has continually topped the polls as preferred PM for the last six years or more. This means that men also sense her strength. There is no one as yet on the political scene to match her in diplomatic skills or personal strengths. She has a very calm and unruffled personality in all situations. Other world leaders if they do not always approve of her seem to respect her including those cultures who are not sympathetic to womens issues.

Carolyn

About education and academic abilities.

World statistics show that girls are consistently outperforming boys in the classroom at all levels in many countries.

I do not have the stats for the US but is it the case in your country too.

It is so worrying British educators that they are trying experimental learning programs where they are having single sex classes for core subjects. I do know that boys learn in a different manner from girls.

My boys went to single sex schools and one of my daughters chose a single sex school. The other daughter chose a co ed school. The child who chose the co ed school was very responsible toward her schoolwork. My other daughter who chose the single sex school said she was glad she did so as when her hormones kicked in at 14 she said if there had been boys in class she doubted whether her grades would have been as good as they were.

Vanessa says that when she was at University girls often beat the boys in grades. That was not really a norm in the fifties and sixties or even seventies. I think women are encouraged with the slogan here "Girls can do anything" And they can!

Carolyn

Feminism

I think the word is outdated now. In the early years of the fight for equality it conjured up pictures of women, braless, with cropped hair and no makeup to be seen. Dressed in jeans and baggy tea shirts and appearing at any function considered to be demeaning to women waving banners. Women had to almost become like men to prove a point.

We have much to thank these women for but today we have advanced here at least to the point where we use words like Spokesperson for womens issues to describe those who are still working for the betterment of women.

Womens issues is the phrase used now to highlight the continuing work that is going on to fine tune the gains that we have already made. To also bring to the attention of the general public other issues that need to be addressed in today's society.

One thing that has really got up my nose is that prostitution is now legalised here. This legalisation does go against what we fought for in the 70s. The right of women to be viewed as a person not a sex object.

Carolyn

I did not really think of my sister as being a feminist just that she was able to lead her own life and be independant which was nice I thought. She is a great mum, sister, daughter and wife. She is one of the people I most love in the world.

We share the same philosophy on most everything in life.

Carolyn

C'Mon guys get posting! All views are welcome you don't have to agree with me or anyone else.

I am going away tomorrow morning to stay with my son in the country he phoned to invite me this morning. He is coming to get me and will drop me back on Saturday morning your time Sunday morning my time.

I hope I will come back to some more posts and some more opinions

TTFN

Carolyn (from where it's winter and snowing in the middle of the island. Blowing and raining up here! Brrrrrr!)

Good Morning, Ladies,

First, I think almost as many women as men would have reservations, at this time in history, for the Commander and Chief of the United States Armed Forces and President to be a female; consequently, I question Dr. Rice's ever being elected to the Presidency.

Second, being a priest or pastor or televangelist is a far cry from being the successor to Billy Graham. I doubt that Franklin will put it off either.

Third, women excel in many sports from beach volleyball to figure skating, but boxing? Come on! Remember what happened in "Million Dollar Baby."

Women are excellent corporation presidents, university CEO's, and talk show billionaires, but there are some "sacred bull" positions they should not hold--in my humble opinion.

Have a nice day.

Ok.Ok. I am past the sacred bull opening.

Isn't the word "feminist" strange? I always thought feminine connoted petite, clean, sexy, "sugar and spice and everything nice." The word feminist, for me, connotes hard, cold, overbearing. I know the definition is a belief in equal rights for women, but it is our connotation of the word that blows the meaning.

That's it for today. I'm off to teach philosophy classes.

Historically there have been many many strong women. It suits men for women to be sugar and spice when they want them to be and conversely they want them to be strong when for instance they have to nurse their spouses through terminal illness or go to work in male occupations while they go to fight a war. Men cannot have their cake and eat it too in my opinion.

Bill, re Male Perspective #4: I think the word you want is "feminine".

I think of "feminism" as more of a political movement - working for equality of women with men. I consider it a noun rather than an adjective - as "feminine" is an adjective.

E-mail from Phyllis Chesler...

Dear Barbara:

Greetings! Thanks so much for reminding me of this. I looked at everything quickly. I hope that you are all using the Plume paperback edition with the new Intro. Here is where I look back a year after I wrote this book and discuss nine things that women can each do right now to begin the process of viewing and treating each other more respectfully, honestly, ethically, and fairly. I would deeply appreciate it if you would post this for me. I am on deadline and simply can't do one more thing.

But, how wonderful that you are having this discussion.
All best,
Phyllis

---

I do not know if Phyllis will have time later in the month or what - I do know that earlier she said she had to get everything to her editor for her new Book...and this week she had to travel in order meet with folks from the editorial staff who go over the entire book.

Next week I will drop her another e-mail to keep her up to date and in it remind her of the question you especially asked Florence...

Is everyone reading the Plume Publication?

How about next week we use these 9 suggestions of what women can do as our topic for the week?

If they take too much room to have in the heading I can prepare a secondary page that we can link to the heading -

Would you prefer we take one suggestion a day and discuss it or would you rather they all be discussed as a package of 9...

In the meantime if you are reading the Plume publication why not read the Intro again and see how it relates to our article of the week linked above - Advancing Women in Leadership: When the Wrong Woman Wins: Building Bullies and Perpetuating Patriarch

And this is a clear and easier to read article to consider Staffroom bullying: Did you Know More than 90 per cent of reported cases of workplace bullying are caused by a serial bully - Bullying is all about power. Bullies want control - control of their victims and of their environment.

Please let me know if you prefer we take one suggestion a day or consider all 9 suggestions that Phyllis Chesler makes in the Introduction of the Plume Publication...

Bill: Your connatation of feminine as" petite, sexy,clean, sugar and spice and everything nice" reminds me of the children's nursery rhyme which ends " and that's what little girls are made of " and little boys frogs and toads and etc. etc. that's what little boys are made of ( the childrens nursery rhyme again).

Our emphasis in this discussion is women not "little girls" and not in a nursery rhyme identification.

Realistically, not ALL women could be identified as petite, sexy, sugar and spice and every thing nice in behavior. SOME women may not even value cleanliness as a behavior.

Barbara: I am using the hardcover publication of the book. NOT the Plume paperback. It seems a good idea to post the 9 updated suggestions the author made in her paperback publication for us to consider. I vote for that.

Anger as a resonse to bullying: I believe the response of anger is justified. I believe in letting a bully know that their behavior is not acceptable to you and you will not take it any more. If you do not respond to them in an assertive way their bullying continues.

I do not believe that responding with anger shows weakness but rather an assertive response that is justified. I know from experience that an assertive response brings a change of behavior on behalf of the bullying clique or individual.

This week the Nation magazine has a review of the new biography of Mary Wollstonecraft - the first feminist. In 1792 she wrote A Vindication of the Rights of Women. Her primary concern was equal opportunity for women to be educated. An equal education was more important that other rights as it is what makes women as human as men.

My definition of Feminism is typical of many other women who believe in equal rights for women equal to those of men. In education, career choices, political rights, equal salary compensations, leadership roles.

Contemporary Women Activists: Gloria Steinem: Activist and leader for many years for Women's Rights. She was inducted into The National Women's Hall of Fame in 1993

A biography of her life which covered her first 60 years is entitled : The Education of A Women by Carol Heilbrun in 1996. A very interesting book which I enjoyed reading/

Betty Friedan who founded NOW in 1966 also a Women's Rights Activist. Also inducted intothe Woman's Hall of Fame. Her book: The Feminine Mystic reads like a textbook as I remember but an interesting read.

I never read Kate Millet's book Sexual Politics. It's on my list of books to read.

I always regretted not becoming a member of NOW during my years in New York City. I certainly believed in this organization's goals.

However, full time career and part time education attendance left little time for activist activities.

These days, you don't hear the word feminism very much. Women's rights in the workplace have been codified. Sexual harrassment can be and is often prosecuted. If a woman is denied promotions or other advancement because of gender, she can appeal to various organizations. But women can still be called "girls." Women frequently receive less pay for the same work as men. And some job categories are still dominated by women. Women are still hampered in employment by the lack of available day care. So there is still work to be done by "feminists" whatever they are called now.

The following article by Joan Holmes appeared in the newspaper "The Oklahoma Observer".

"As we complete 2004 and assess major world issues, we must confront one critical fact: We are doing a terrible job of taking care of our girls.

While there are many countries where girls are cherished and cared for, the vast majority of girls live in countries where this is not so- in countries of the develping world, there is severe discrimination against women and girls.

In much of the developing world, a little girl eats last and least. She is up to three times more likely than a boy to suffer malnutition.

She is often not taken to the doctor when she is sick and she is less likely to be immunized.

Girls are often kept out of school and put to work. Whether at home, in the factories, or in the field, little girls are at work. If she does go to school, she's still at risk. Rather than being a safe refuge and a source of empowerment, the school situation is often dangerous. A recent national study showed that 32% of reported child rapes in South Africa were committed by school teachers.

Ninety-three million women and girls are "missing" from the world population because of sex-selective abortion, female infanticide, malnutrition, abuse and neglect of female children."

Judy

emotionally I am offended when deprived of ANYTHING in the world because I am a woman. It's very basic to me. I respond in various ways depending on whether or not the offence has any impact on my life I took an assertiveness training course and learned ways of dealing with it which has helped since I refuse to let it stew. If it has no impact I just consider the source and move on. . . Claire

A few years back a woman from my church snarled at me -- You are a feminist! Was surprised because I have always thought of myself as a woman with the same humanity as a man. When I consider the word feminist I always think of all of those women who fought for our rights and who believed that we were equal. I am sorry that I didn't help in the fight except for using my big mouth to protest at work and in school.

kidsal, I think if anybody "accused" me of being a feminist, I think my response would be: "Got that right! And d..ned proud of it, too! And we've taught our four daughters the same thing."

I think Judy is right to remind us that even though much work still remains in the fight for women's rights here in the U.S., in some parts of the world the plight of women is much more difficult. In those places, girls have little worth and are still deemed to be the property of men. In India, a young woman can be burned to death with no consequences for the perpetrator if she does not provide a big enough dowry.

Barbara, what a heart-breaking story about the women in the camps in Darfur! Thanks for that link.

I agree with you and also hope that somehow as a result of this discussion that we are each able to light a candle in the support and care of women and girls.

Judy

The entire story from Darfur is terrible and tragic - the raping of the women, of course, but all the killing, too. And nobody in the world seems to care enough to actually do anything about it. I certainly know very little about it, and there is very little in the newspaper. Thanks, Barbara, for posting the link.

Sorry to digress just a minute, but earlier in this discussion, we talked about girls and bullying. This link will take you to an article in this week's Newsweek magazine. Interesting timing.

I watched a reality program called Brat Camp and the girls who were the most aggressive had been taking drugs at some stage. They had got used to using force to get their own way and even when the drugs were out of their system they continued with the aggressive behaviour to manipulate their parents and peers. Drug taking I think is one reason why our young woman are becoming more aggressive.

Aggression is not confined to girls however. Parents today seem reluctant to discipline their kids and impose realistic boundaries. This begins from babyhood and by the time the kids are teens the have total control of their environment and an expectation of instant gratification in all things. When suddenly their parents realise that the children are in danger of self destructing they put on the brakes but its too late and out comes real aggression as a weapon for the children to obtain gratification.

If women today are more aggressive then is this a result of their upbringing. When they hit the workplace or high school is aggression a tool they use to gratify their wants in either situation?

Reply to question #3 On two occasions that I recall two different women had made statements to me in a group setting that I found offensive.

I chose to confront them individually and privately about their behavior. In both situations both denied they made the statement.

Needless to say I was left with unresolved anger. I decided that in the future any repetition of that type of behavior would result in an immediate response from me not a delayed response where time could conveniently blur the memory of the speaker.

I also came to realize that I had delayed my response due to my own comfort zone need not to confront in a group. Much later, I realized that the best way to put a stop to an insensitive remark was to confront immediately and not to delay to allow for memory loss on belalf of the speaker.

I think I am disturbed by some of the ideas in this book.

I believe that as women we should be assertive and be able to succeed in society in any field that we should wish to enter. However in saying this I am not a purist and as I see my grandchildren flourish, being cared for stay at home mums, or Mums who only work part time I believe that those women who wish to bring up their children as their first career,should be given the tools to do so.

In other words the choice to stay at home should be as valid as the choice to take up a career while raising children.

Women who chose a career should not look down on those who choose to be stay at home Mums.

As I grow older I think I have become more subjective and I can see the benefits of being able to stay at home and fully participate in every facet of a childs life. I am very glad my grands have had their Mums at home during the first five years of their lives.

Carolyn

Children are our future. Good Mums are as valuable as gold in my opinion. Its up to women to give other women permission to be full time Mums. It is up to ALL of us to validate that decision to stay at home and be a carer and first educator of our preschoolers.

carolyn

Re money and stay at home Moms. You will find that in a household where the wife does not work outside the home and therefore does not contribute financially to the household the husband tends to have most if not all the say about how money is spent. When a women "works" and brings in cash she gets a voice on how to run the household as far as spending is concerned. I find when talking to young people it is still the same as it was back went most mothers didn't work.

Re expressing opinions: I don't think I'd say anything different to a man or a woman if I disagreed with either.

When John was the only wage-earner in our household, I handled all our money - paid all the bills, etc., etc. I don't know that he's ever paid a bill to this day (nearly 50 years). We never made a big purchase that we didn't decide on it together.

One of our daughters received a great object lesson when she was a newlywed - living in married student housing at Univ of TN. That semester, she was working and her husband was a student (she later finished). One of her co-workers showed up with a black eye - her husband had hit her. Margaret was horrified and couldn't understand why the woman stayed with her husband. When the woman said she couldn't afford to leave, Margaret vowed then that she'd never be in that position, would always have at least enough money that she could pick up her kids (she didn't have any then) and walk out - that it would happen to her only one time. From then on, she and her husband have had separate checking accounts (they've been married 26 years), and it's worked for them.

But if you don't work outside the home where does that money come from for you to have a seperate account.

Even if a woman does work and accumulate Social Security credits, her husband's credits count for more. It's true she can collect on the basis of her own account if her husband is not also collecting yet. But once her husband is collecting, the woman's payment is based on what he is getting, no matter how much she earned on her own.

In NZ our equivalent of S/S can be paid either into a joint account or separately into the wives or husbands account. Even if the wife never works the payments for each are exactly the same. A woman who worked gets the same as a woman who never worked.

jeriron, I don't have a good answer for that one. I guess, in my case, even when I didn't work outside the home, I still had access to our money, and if I had wanted to squirrel some away, I could've done that. Fortunately, I was never in a position to have to even think about that.

Barbara: That was a well thought out post and I agree with all of it.

The part about whether the wife can just go out and buy a new appliance without "asking" her husband where as does he ask her if he feels he needs a part for his car is right on the button. Now for instance if her washing machine stops dead then there may be no need for a discussion but if is just causing her trouble because it doesn't work they way it should he may go on and say it's ok. you don't need a new one. Can she say well I think I do and go into their acct.and buy one. I doubt it.

I never worked outside the home and always felt the money was never mine so I had to ask before I would spend anything above an allowance I got for myself. When I inherited money from my parents I said I was going to buy a new car and there was no questions asked. But of cause we needed a new one anyway.

It is also difficult to get a well paying job if you have stayed home with your children rather then working. You end up with no references and experience at all. Even if you went into the marriage with a collage degree. If you haven't used it because you didn't work it doesn't mean much to an employer. He, in this day and age has plenty of people coming in for jobs with degrees. And they will be a lot younger then the ex-homemaker.

Now couples get married when they are older and the woman has had collage and a job under her belt. Most stay working and there isn't the same problem as the women of the fifties had getting married right out of high school.

I guess we just have an unusual marriage - although I'd like to think it wasn't. John was more likely to come to me and say "we need a couple of tires - can we afford it?" It would never occur to me to "ask" if I could buy a mixer or a microwave or a vacuum cleaner - nor would he expect to be consulted. He probably look at me like I'd lost my last marble! A couple of years ago, our dryer died. It was 27 (!) years old. I told John if he touched it to try to repair it, I'd hurt him. AND that since the washer had to be moved to get to the dryer, and was 26 years old, and was still working, I was going to replace that, too. It's been a big joke ever since.

Money just has never been an issue - if it's in the house, it's OURS. Generally, he doesn't "do" household items and I don't "do" outside items (car/yard).

I know this is a personal story, and from what I read, probably not the norm. But it's what I know, and what I seem to see in our daughters' marriages.

After reading the above posts I am more than ever convinced that I have done the right thing in keeping my money separate from my husbands......His name is on my accounts and my name name is on his but we never fiddle with each others money without the others consent.....By the way my SS is more than his......We have been married for 30 years and this has worked out fine...........

PS TO MY 161 POST

One thing I didn't mention is my husband never bought anything for himself. He was not a "toy" person and I always had to keep pushing him to get something he really wanted (fishing pole, golf clubs etc).

It's just that I would never consider just going to the store to buy myself new cloths without consulting (asking) him first. I just felt spending extra money that wasn't household money wasn't mine to spend.

Judging another and expressing that judgment in a critical way( Catagories of Verbal Abuse).

When I was a new resident to the San Diego area and seeking a teaching position at a local Community College I had a interview with a male Administrator at the college. I had 11 years of prior teaching experience and believed I would find a welcome response from the administrator.

Suddenly, during the interview this man said to me " my goodness what a terrible New York accent you have" !

I was mortified by his insensitive remark but I looked him directly in his eyes and stated " the students in Arizona had NO difficulty in understanding what I was saying to them nor did I have any difficulty in understanding them".

Silence ensued but I knew that I had made my point. I thought his professional behavior was poor including the casual way he had dressed for the interview.

I had always been treated so well in other faculty interviews over the years.

Did I get the position? No . However, I had a certain amount of gratification when I learned from the Department Secretary that I had been considered as the #2 candidate for the position if the #1 candidate did not accept the position . She did of course.

Barbara, in a general conversation, with lots of give and take, I have no problem in stating my opinion - always making clear that it is MY opinion, and allowing for the (remote, of course ) possibility that someone may have a different opinion. And I'm willing to listen to another opinion. Sometimes, in another situation, I might just stay quiet and keep my opinion to myself. It just depends. It's not a matter of shyness, or being afraid to express my opinion.

I'm grinning, Barbara, at the thought of what my husband and daughters would say to the idea that I might EVER "stay below the radar". I try to be diplomatic, but definitely not to be run over.

Over here there has been much discussion lately about the place of women in our society. Its such a coincidence as we are reading this book at the same time!

One thing I have noticed is that women judge other women by their appearance. If they are thin and good looking they are more likely to want to be their friend. However at the same time they are likely to be super critical especially if one woman stands out in the group. She is likely to be criticised more and be the butt of catty gossip than the rest of the group.

When I was child I never thought about the appearance of adults in my life but now I notice young girls are criticising the appearance of adult women in their lives. They are less likely to criticise the male figures in their lives. They will echo criticisms they have heard their mothers utter in the home.

Our whole society is obsessed by the body beautiful and its further fuelled by TV programs like extreme makeover which totally revamps the women so they begin to all look like Barbie dolls. They are totally resculptured from head to foot.

If you are going for a job it does not matter how efficient you are looks will win above all else if you are a female.

Carolyn

Ginny, I would love to join in the discussion of "Whale Rider". I saw the movie on the big screen after hearing rave reviews of it. When it came out on DVD, I had to have my own copy.

Keisha Castle-Hughes was nominated for 'best actress' for an academy award. I don't remember who won; but this young lady is such an excellent actress, I think she should have won.

Judy

In giving one's own opinion that is NOT in agreement with some one in the conversation:

I remember an event when this happened in a heated discussion of the qualtiy of care for members in a well known HMO health plan here. The person attacked my opinion and I responded " This has been my own experience which I am referring to not yours".

While my response may not change the attitude or matter to that person I felt that my own opinion which was based on my own experience should not be discounted.

As to toppling the surrounding boats:

My feelings are that this depends on how much of a risk taker you are and what the potential consequences could be . This would affect my decision as to my responses.

When I was a teenager I had a close "friend". I was already insecure and this"friend" constantly in the most covert way put me down in every way possible.

My best friend tried to point this out to me but I had already taken on board the criticisms this friend had put into my head. This friend did a lot of damage to me at a very vulnerable time in my life. My best friend that I am still close to said that the first girl was insanely jealous of me and that is why she worked on me. My mother began the work with her criticism and it was easy for someone else to carry on what she had begun.

I spent all my life believing I was ugly I saw an ugly person in the mirror. My best friend recently told me it was entirely the opposite. We should bear my story in mind as we share in the upbringing of our grandaughters.

Carolyn

Women certainly can be very cruel to one another.

Barbara I could not see it, all I saw was this fat ugly person in the mirror. My best friend said to me "you were tiny and lovely I could not understand why you could not see it"

It has only been in the last two years I realised what had happened to my self esteem. If you get a child brain washed at a very vulnerable time of life 11-16 I think you can destroy them for life.

Carolyn

Barbara Koro is the Maori word for grandfather. Koro is not his Christian name. Thought you may not realise that, It is a good movie and would make good discussion.

Carolyn

Barbara there was no real therapy just a small incident. I had been ill for a few years restricting my mobility so for the first time in my life put on weight, I decided about 18mths ago I had to lose the weight as I had never been overweight in all my life.

It was just a chance remark from a 34 yr old friend who saw me after a gap of a year when I had lost the weight and put on some makeup (rare for me) and she said "Wow you look sexy" As she had not known me all my life and is a really quiet person I knew she was not just flattering me. I then realised my self image had been distorted. I still have some ugly days but mostly I am happy with myself Now if only I could find a cure for my fibro! I am sure trying. I still rarely wear makeup because I get bad reactions from almost any skin products but now and again on a special occasion I will wear some light makeup.

I don't have any magic fix for ones self image I wish I did!

Must go now - animals clamouring for their breakfast.

Carolyn

I like to think I can compromise with a male but its a while since I faced the situation apart from with my sons and probably they may defer to me at times because I am Mum!!!!

A Slandered or Sabotaged Victim:

I learned by some sad experiences in work situations to confront the slanderous or sabotaging women. When appropriate I did not hesitate to make her aware that I would seek further action by taking the matter to her supervisor and if necessary seek legal action against her if my job was jepordized by her slander ( her intention to do malice).

This put a stop to her behavior in one situation.

I learned by sad experiences not to let things fester which resulted in anger unresolved for me. In some situations, the slanderer may not entirely change her victimization behaviors. However, she will either move on to another vulnerable person or may be more guarded when confronted with being reported to her supervisor or threatened with legal action .

This depends upon the fear factor that can be instilled in a confrontation. Unfortunately, this can be the only motivating factor for a change of behavior of a slanderer.

Barbara, you ask "how do we create social circles without using behavior like gossip and slanderous back stabbing as tools to refine the circle or, power grab to become a leader within the group? "

I don't know exactly how it happens - I just know it does. About 3 years ago, when our local Y opened its new indoor pool, a deep-water aerobics class was offered. I started going and within about 6 months, this group of mostly women, about half retired, coalesced into an amazing circle of friends. Some had know each other before, but most of us were strangers to one another - just a random group. For the last two years, we've been meeting after class at a nearby coffee shop for coffee and conversation - not everybody comes every time - and there are some who no long swim, but still come to coffee. It's an incredible support group, with our initial contact being the swimming class. There are NO leaders, NO cliques, NO factions, NO power struggle, NO back-stabbing - just friendship and support. Perhaps this is unique - but I'd hope not.

I have also found support forums in the health sector without bitchiness and backstabbing. I guess when you have chronic illness you look at things in a different way.

Carolyn

Becoming an Honorable Opponent:

One example which comes to my mind in which I believe I exibited this behavior was: I had a part time second job teaching student nurses in the evening section of a clinical experience in a local hospital.

One evening the Charge Nurse on the unit approached me and stated " I really like the way you teach the students by working with them at the patients bedside ". But the other instructor on the other evenings here sits in the Nurses Station, drinks coffee and reads patients charts. She does not work/help students at the patients bedside."

" I'd like YOU to tell your Director of the Nursing Program at the college so she know about this". I replied " I'm happy to know that you are pleased with my teaching techniques but that is my style. I do not know the other instructor you are displeased with. I could not do as you request. You certainly have the option of contacting the Director of the college Program either directly or by way of your supervisor if you are so displeased with her teaching."

I did not believe that it was my role or responsibilty to be a messenger of bad tidings or to help incriminate another woman faculty member.

Soon I want to write a longer post about my experience with women's groups, but now I want to note what I heard on "The View" today.

Reading all the posts and keeping Chesler's 9 steps in mind I've become more conscious of the issues she is addressing.

Today one of the 4 women hosts of The View very clearly said to another host, "You're wrong." I'm pretty certain who said it, but I'm not going to name her.

This is so common. Most people say this to each other. It is always hurtful for me. It is interesting to learn that Chesler regards it as verbal abuse. Most people most of the time pepper their conversation with you statements.

As I struggle to get out of my isolation and connect more with people, I'm trying to learn some communication skills. The main guideline I always try to do is use I statements and avoid you statements. Many people resent the suggestion of such a guideline and act huffy, defensive and say that it is their right to express their honest feelings.

Unfortunately, since my world is mostly filled with women, it is women who are guilty of this.

I have two daughters. Both are terrifically popular amongst their peers.

Their philosophy on life.

Never be catty and never say anything you would not or have not said to a persons face.

With my youngest daughter she is up front and personally detached when she has to point out shortcomings in her graduates. Her criticism is not given with malice. She will not let omissions or errors carry on but addresses the matter immediately in a non confrontational way.

She realises everyone is an individual.

Both of them believe if you cannot say something positive when you are out with the girls and they begin to start pulling someone else to bits say nothing at all and if possible change the subject.

Other women really like my two girls and I am proud of them especially as my youngest daughter works in a very competitive environment and still remains the nice person that she is.

Carolyn

Even though I am older and, as Barbara says, realize that life is short, I still feel competitive in some settings. Now that I am working only part-time, I have taken up golf. In the class, I find myself wanting to be better than the other students even though I know I should be competing mainly against myself. Is this a natural human instinct?

As for the list above, it's a very thoughtful one. In some areas mentioned, a lot has already been done. But there are some areas that are extremely difficult to legislate. For example: "Ensure opportunities for women and men to have parental benefits; promote the equal sharing of responsibilities for the family by men and women, including through legislation and incentives..." I'm not sure how legislation could promote the equal sharing of responsibilities. It has always been easier for a man to walk away from his family than it is for a woman. We do garnish a man's salary, when he is working and we can find him, to help support his family. Throwing a man who refuses to support his children in jail does not really help his family or society. What incentives would you use?

Asian Families: Those that I have met and observed value education and work opportunities to raise their immigrant status and low economic level. Equally important is their cultural values in child rearing practices, family unity and respect for parents and elders.

Although these values are being diluted with second and third generation asians and when some Asians marry into non-asian cultures.

#17 Women and Earnings For example: Although earnings for teachers and nurses have improved over the years but not in consonence with the educational level demanded of both groups for entrance into these professions.

Based on readings and experiences society does value both professions but as female dominated professions want the work done for the lowest salary possible . When less women enter these two career tracts and there is shortage society begins to take notice and attitudes change but not fast enough.

Joining unions has helped over the years to raise salary and benefits. More men have entered these two professions but with only a 10% male nurse population this has not made much of a gain for status or salary.

#47 Transferrable Employment Benefits

The only expamples of this which I can give is for a Nurse to work for the Federal government where this is possible. Such as the Veterans Administration Facilities , the Federal Public Health Service. Another example is: for teachers at the level of Higher Education ( Colleges and Universities) and also research personel at these facilities.

They do this by joining AAUA/CREF and taking their accrued retirement annuity savings with them as long as they continue to work in Higher Education. They must also obtain licensure in the state they are moving to ( additional cost).

Barbara, we saw the young woman from Lubbock interviewed on NOW on PBS last Friday evening. John was watching the NBA game last night, but we taped that POV program, and will probably watch it tonight. She is one gutsy gal, in our opinion. I hope our youngest granddaughter (age 16) watched it. I sent her the link last week. She's the type who would do something like that.

Barbara, we just finished watching POV. What an incredible story! I grew up in Houston, my parents are from NE Texas, and I still have an aunt in The Valley - I do understand. We particularly loved the opening quote:

"Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: one is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell; the other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on Earth and you should save it for someone you love." Attributed to Butch Hancock, The Flatlanders.

John had to look up The Flatlanders, and this link will take you there.

We're taking the tape to our 16-year-old granddaughter (who lives in rural SC) next week when we go to the beach. She's a rabble-rouser, and needs to see this one.

My aunt lived for year and years in Edinburg - her husband was editor of the paper there, and their son, my cousin, now has an independent insurance agency there. Aunt Betsy moved to a retirement complex in Weslaco about 3 years ago. Several family members (great aunts and uncles) lived in the Valley for years and now are buried there.

John and I met at Rice. My family moved to Houston during WW II, and John's family moved there when he was in high school. We married while we were at Rice, left school, and he finished at UofH in 1962 in Electrical Engineering. The job he took was with duPont at their plant near Nashville. We moved there in 1962, and amazingly stayed there until he took a transfer to Chattanooga in 1986. He retired at the end of 1991, but we love Chattanooga, so we stayed here. And that's my life story!

How did you wind up in Austin?

Transfered from Lexington Ky back in 1966 - been on my own since '90 and all three of my children are living a good day or more drive away.

Amazing to me is how often I have been taken advantage of since I divorced - from insurance companies to roofers to auto dealers - they only seem to respect another man - They never say a word and then later you realize you were taken - and to make matters worse they are sure to set it up so that you have no recourse - I've been experiencing an expensive learning curve.

Although I've not personally experienced it, I know what you mean about people trying to take advantage of a solo woman. John went with a young woman friend of ours to buy a part for her car (because her car wouldn't go). She had worked on the car and knew exactly what she wanted and needed. The guy behind the counter kept talking over her head to John. John kept saying - it's her car and do whatever she tells you. They laughed about it on the way back, although I know that little red-headed fireball was monumentally ticked off about it. John still tells the story and that was probably 10 years or more ago.

My sister was living in Lexington in the early 1960s. Her then-husband was a professor at the school of Architecture at UK. That's a pretty town, too. Smaller towns with colleges really do have a lot to offer (Lexington, Austin, Knoxville, etc.)

About 15 years ago we were talking about buying a new car for me. So my husband said why don't you go to the dealer while I'm at work and get all the information and price on it and then we'll go back on Saturday. The salesamn took me into the office and I explained what I wanted and his answer was " I think it would be better if your husband was here". He wouldn't give me anyinformation without my husband there. I was so furious and believe me when I say We BOTH went back on Saturday and spoke to the manager and told him why we would never consider buying a car from them.

I'm with you, jeriron. I wouldn't have bought from that dealership, either. And I probably would've written a letter to the paper complaining about it, too.

Carry a cane and pound on the counter.

When I was sent for parts for the combine or what ever, I didn't clean-up -- I wore my greasy overalls and and took the broken part with me. This way they didn't try to give you any ole part just to get rid of you.

"I've also learned that if anyone is offering to make something easy for me they are usually trying to take advantage of me. "

AMEN TO THAT, Barbara!

Regarding pet names, why are so many young adult couples calling each other "baby?" What is going on? What is the significance of doing it? IMHO it infantilizes each other. If I was young again, I wouldn't tolerate it.

Good heavens - I wonder if this will make any difference so the whole burden is not on the women Male Contraceptive is being researched and developed

Barbara, that's interesting, but the burden will still be on the woman - and she'd better be very sure she can trust the man's word about his taking such a medication. Because she will still be the one who gets pregnant and who has to raise the child.

hehehe and you are suggesting we cannot trust the guys??

Not exactly, Barbara - but if we're wrong, we're still pregnant and raising a child. And, I'm sure that my DH, with whom I trust my life, agrees with me.

I think that 'baby" business has been going on for years....Even Emeril iterjects his remarks with " Oh yeah babe"........and just listen to the lyrics of music both old and new.......interesting....

Response to Question # 1 I absolutely believe in equal pay for both women and men who do work of equal value. Society needs to pressure their Senators and state representatives to support legislation for enactment and enforcement of this much needed policy.

The old corporate defense that men receive higher salaries for the equal work is because " they have families to support" is unwarranted now. So may single women now supporting their families in society today. Some have to take more than one job to survive due to low salaries for women.

Some gains have occured in recent years. I read that 20 years ago a women made 50 cents for every $1 that men earned. Now, women earn 74 cents for every $1 that men earn. Still NOT equal to a mans' salary.

Unions and the Feminist Organizations have helped in this achievement.

I believe that in the Nursing and Teaching professions both men and women earn equal pay for equal work.

Any one know about descrepencies in salaries of men and women who do equal work for unequal pay in other professions or other levels of employment ?

When single parents work and they have no parents to fall back on they have a really bad situation if a child is sick. There was a letter in the paper today outlining a womans plight. This woman had a sick child. The current Hong Kong flu epidemic has killed 3 children here in the past two weeks. Doctors say children must be kept in bed and kept warm as this flu can complicate easily. There is no vaccine for it as we have not seen this strain for a while. Last epidemic was 1987. The woman had no sick leave left herself ( easy to use up when you have kids) and had to drag her sick child out to take the child to her mothers to be cared for. Her mother looks after an invalid sister who is compromised by contact with the flu as she has a heart lung condition.

Men are not the major caregivers of children usually when a relationship ends. Its the woman who sacrifices. This woman gets no pay for taking the time off and on lower wages than a man is just making ends meet in the normal course of things,

I believe that the Govt should help out with compensatory pay in these cases where women are working to support their kids. Kids are very important and often men are remarried and its like getting blood out of a stone to get extra child support payments from them. Meanwhile the only thing a woman can cut down on is the food bill to make ends meet. Its a sad state of affairs!

Carolyn

Sweden Denmark and Norway are real models of good caring societies. They are economically sound, people pay more tax but care about each other. They also have a high standard of living.

I have noticed in those families where the father takes a very active role in the care of the children couples work hard at their marriages and seem to weather the storms that any marriage has from time to time.

Carolyn

My niece is expecting a baby sometime in the next few weeks. When the baby is born, her husband will be given six weeks paternity leave. I think this is wonderful. I know it will help the new mother and will enable him to bond with the new baby.

Judy

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