Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 350551 times)

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #960 on: April 12, 2010, 01:01:04 AM »
The use of CE and BCE which has been fairly recent and was changed by the Jews because they don't believe in Jesus. They themselves have a calendar that states it starts at the beginning of creation of the universe. To Jews this is the year 5,770 according to their calendar that begins at 1CE (creation era).

This is what the Jewish calendar link says.........

Quote
Jews do not generally use the words "A.D." and "B.C." to refer to the years on the civil calendar. "A.D." means "the year of our L-rd," and we do not believe Jesus is the L-rd. Instead, we use the abbreviations C.E. (Common Era) and B.C.E. (Before the Common Era), which are commonly used by scholars today.

The Jewish calendar is based on moon cycles instead of sun cycles. It used to be calculated by observation. They have only used mathematics since the 4th century. It makes no sense to anyone else, but their standard of a 5,700 year old universe and earth makes no sense either.

The Islamic calendar states that April 10, 2010 is April 25, 1431. I used the conversion calendar from the Institute of Oriental studies at Zurich University for the Islamic date. They begin the world on the year that Mohammed began his pilgrimages. Like their brothers the Jews, Muslims use the moon cycles and begin their new day at sundown.

So should we be using either of these Arabic peoples to tell us what we can use as to our dates and calendar and how we should designate eras. Not unless one has a permanent room at the lunatic asylum.

http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm


Emily

 

 

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #961 on: April 12, 2010, 01:29:20 PM »
I tho't the point of changing from A.D. and B.C. was that we are a global society now and our academics should be thinking in global terms and using terms that everybody in the world can identify with. If we continue to be Western-centric or Christian-centric we leave out alot of world history and many world citizens. I think we've seen that as we read and discuss this one author, even by looking at just "western civilization." Even tho we define western civ as Judeo-Christian history it contains aspects of cultures from around the world. It's a small change in our mind-set and does no harm to us or to our history, but becomes inclusive for others to be comfortable when talking about a major part of world history. ....................jean

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #962 on: April 12, 2010, 08:59:36 PM »
Mabel: I agree with you completely.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #963 on: April 13, 2010, 02:18:08 AM »
It is clear that while BC and AD have been in common use in the West for several centuries a trend away from these terms toward adoption of BCE and CE has been gaining in recent years. Since the end  of WWll we have recognized that the West is only a part of the world and that if we are to play a strong role in the world at large we must be willing to change many of our little conventions to conventions that encompass more of the world.

The Jews have been using Common era and I think Vulgar era for almost two centuries. The scientific community prefers use of BCE and CE to shift it's dating references into a secular context and to use a more universal term.
I see that the College Board History exams uses the terms BCE and CE. It is also interesting that the Style book for the Episcopal Diocese of Maryland also recommends use of BCE and CE.

I suppose it's nit picking and maybe irrelevant to point out that the year one is not the year of Christ's birth.

A related but side issue appeared in recent days. Archeologists have found a 1.8 million year skeleton of a transitional person and of course, we have known about Lucy who is somewhat younger, for some years. These two discoveries strongly point to a populated earth that far exceeds  the 5700 years the Jews have allotted to it. I personally think it is time the religions of the world admit they know nothing of the origins of the world and of life. If religion is necessary for some folks to feel comfortable in life perhaps it would be profitable for someone to design a religion based upon up to date knowledge of the world and its peoples.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #964 on: April 13, 2010, 05:15:53 PM »
Mabel
Quote
Even tho we define western civ as Judeo-Christian history

Judaism is an Eastern religion. Like Islam it came from the Middle East. Neither of these religions have any connection to Western civilization. Neither does Christianity for that matter. They are all products of the East, not the West.

They are not part of Western history. Europe had Christianity thrust upon them, but they have jettisoned it for the most part, which shows they are way ahead of the U.S. We are still a young country but are headed in the direction of Europe.

The Gregorian calendar is a civil calendar and is the most widely used calendar in the world. My vote would be to keep the calendar since it's the only one that makes sense, and do away with any mention of any religion, by any religious group or their suggestions.

I like BJ and AJ. That would be 'before jack' and 'after jack'. That would befuddle all those religious charlatans who 'don't know jack'.

The definition of 'jack' used in that way would refer to 'knowledge of the natural world'.

"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments. There are consequences." ..........Robert Ingersoll

Emily 


Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #965 on: April 13, 2010, 05:50:37 PM »
You may call  BJ and AJ  before Jack and after Jack but I'll bet those charlatans would call the abbreviations Before Jesus and After Jesus.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #966 on: April 13, 2010, 05:55:01 PM »
Pius ll took his name from Virgil's recurrent phrase, " Pius Aeneas". What do you think about that?

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #967 on: April 13, 2010, 10:49:29 PM »
emily what is WESTERN religion that anyone might recognize as such.  Jack not withstanding. the Native American Indians have an interesting religion based on the nature of things.  Is that what you mean?
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #968 on: April 14, 2010, 01:13:32 AM »
Emily: I agree that the Abrahamic religions are all Eastern in origin. Islam, of course , is still eastern but the Jews and Christians have been a part of western history since Constantine, at least, perhaps since Paul, but more likely since James landed at Compostella in Spain. The Christianity we see today is a far cry from the Christianity of Jerusalem, and the changes one sees have come about as a result of western absorption of the Christian idea. I think "thrust upon them" is a good characterization  of what happened but once it was here the process of adaptation led to an entirely different religious concept. The Jerusalem church wanted circumcision as a rite of passage and the thought of breaking bread with gentiles was abhorrent and sinful. The Christianity of Catholicism is and has been against the precepts of the Jerusalem Church since the very beginning. Catholicism is really the church of Paul and the Councils. They think of the earlier version as a Jewish sect.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #969 on: April 17, 2010, 06:07:57 PM »
Does this stimulate the thinking?

Thine Is the Kingdom
By JON MEACHAM
Skip to next paragraph
CHRISTIANITY

The First Three Thousand Years

By Diarmaid MacCulloch

Illustrated. 1,161 pp. Viking. $45
It is only a brief moment, a seemingly inconclusive ­exchange in the midst of one of the most significant interviews in human history. In the Gospel of John, Jesus of Nazareth has been arrested and brought before Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea. Improbably polite, reflective and reluctant to sentence Jesus to death (the historical Pilate was in fact brutal and quick-tempered), Pilate is portrayed as a patient questioner of this charismatic itinerant preacher. “So you are a king?” Pilate asks, and Jesus says: “You say that I am a king. I was born for this, and I came into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is committed to the truth listens to my voice.” Then, in what I imagine to be a cynical, world-weary tone, Pilate replies, “What is truth?”

Jesus says nothing in response, and Pilate’s question is left hanging — an open query in the middle of John’s rendering of the Passion. I have always thought of Pilate’s question as a kind of wink from God, a sly aside to the audience that says, in effect, “Be careful of anyone who thinks he has all the answers; only I do.” The search for truth — about the visible and the invisible — is perhaps the most fundamental of human undertakings, ranking close behind the quests for warmth, food and a mate.

With apologies and due respect and affection to my friends Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris, that perennial search for an answer to Pilate’s question usually takes religious form. “All men need the gods,” as Homer has it, and nothing since then — not Galileo, not Darwin, not the Enlightenment, nothing — has changed the intrinsic impulse to organize stories and create belief systems that give shape to life and offer a vision of what may lie beyond the grave.

For Christians, the answer to Pilate’s question about truth is the death and Resurrection of Jesus and what those events came to represent for believers. “Came to” is a key point, for the truth as Peter and the apostles saw it on that dark Friday was not the truth as 21st-­century Christians see it. The work of discerning — or, depending on your point of view, assigning — meaning to the Passion and the story of the empty tomb was a historical as well as a theological process, as was the construction of the faith.

Christianity’s foundational belief is that Jesus was the Son of God, who died and rose again as an atoning sacrifice for the sins of a fallen world. It seems banal even to note this. But guess who did not know it on that epic morning of Resurrection long ago? Those closest to Jesus, the disciples, who, when told of the empty tomb by the women who followed Jesus, were perplexed: what could this mean? Jesus had not adequately prepared them for the central dramatic action of the new salvation history that was to take shape in the wake of his Passion. Read carefully, the Gospels tell the story of the disciples’ working out what a resurrected Messiah might mean, and the conclusions they drew formed the core of the belief system that became Christianity.

Why the initial uncertainty? Because it is vastly more likely that Jesus’ contemporaries expected his imminent return to earth and the inauguration of the kingdom of God — a time, in first-century Jewish thought, that would be marked, among other things, by a final triumph of Israel over its foes and a general resurrection of the dead. How else to understand, for instance, Jesus’ words in Mark: “I tell you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power”? Or why else were the Gospels written decades after the Passion? Could it be because Jesus’ followers believed that they were the last generation and did not expect to need documents to pass on to ensuing generations? If Jesus were returning to rule in a new kind of reality, there would be no need for biographies, for he would be here, as he also said in Mark, “with great power and glory.” As the years passed, however, and the kingdom did not come — despite the prayers of the faithful — the early Christians realized they should record what they could in order to capture the stories and traditions in anticipation of a much longer wait. The Gospels that have survived, then, are apologetic documents, composed to inspire and to convince. John is explicit about this, saying he was writing “so that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and so that through believing you may have life in his name.”

A word of disclosure: I am an Episcopalian who takes the faith of my fathers seriously (if unemotionally), and I would, I think, be disheartened if my own young children were to turn away from the church when they grow up. I am also a critic of Christianity, if by critic one means an observer who brings historical and literary judgment to bear on the texts and traditions of the church.

I mention this because I sense a kind of kinship with Diarmaid MacCulloch, professor of the history of the church at Oxford University, who has written a sprawling, sensible and illuminating new book, “Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years.” A biographer of Thomas Cranmer and the author of an acclaimed history of the Reformation, MacCulloch comes from three generations of Anglican clergymen and himself grew up in a country rectory of which he says, “I have the happiest memories.” He thus treats his subject with respect. “I was brought up in the presence of the Bible, and I remember with affection what it was like to hold a dogmatic position on the statements of Christian belief,” he writes. “I would now describe myself as a candid friend of Christianity. I still appreciate the seriousness which a religious mentality brings to the mystery and misery of human existence, and I appreciate the solemnity of religious liturgy as a way of confronting these problems.” Then, significantly, MacCulloch adds, “I live with the puzzle of wondering how something so apparently crazy can be so captivating to millions of other members of my species.” That puzzle confronts anyone who approaches Christianity with a measure of detachment. The faith, MacCulloch notes, is “a perpetual argument about meaning and ­reality.”

This is not a widely popular view, for it transforms the “Jesus loves me! This I know / For the Bible tells me so” ethos of Sunday schools and vacation Bible camps into something more complicated and challenging: what was magical is now mysterious. Magic means there is a spell, a formula, to work wonders. Mystery means there is no spell, no formula — only shadow and impenetrability and hope that one day, to borrow a phrase T. S. Eliot borrowed from Julian of Norwich, all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well.

Magic, however, has powerful charms. Not long ago I was with a group of ministers on the East Coast. The conversation turned to critical interpretations of the New Testament. I remarked that I did not see how people could make sense of the Bible if they were taught to think of it as a collection of ancient Associated Press reports. (Cana, Galilee — In a surprise development yesterday at a local wedding, Jesus of Nazareth transformed water into wine. . . .) “That’s your critical reading of the Gospels,” one minister replied, “but in the pulpit I can’t do that.” “Why?” I asked. “Because,” he said, “you can’t mess with Jesus.”

Well. If the power of Jesus — “the Christ, the Son of the living God,” as Peter called him — cannot survive a bit of biblical criticism, then the whole enterprise is rather more rickety than one might have supposed. Still, the objecting cleric’s remark illuminates one of the issues facing not only Christians but the broader world: To what extent should holy books be read and interpreted critically and with a sense of the context in which they were written, rather than taken literally? To later generations of the faithful, what was written in fluctuating circumstances has assumed the status of immutable truth. Otherwise perfectly rational people think of Jesus’ Ascension into heaven on the 40th day after Easter to be as historical an event as the sounding of the opening bell at the New York Stock Exchange. To suggest that such supernatural stories are allegorical can be considered a radical position in even the most liberal precincts of the Christian world. But the Bible was not FedExed from heaven, nor did the Lord God of Hosts send a PDF or a link to Scripture. Properly understood — and MacCulloch’s book is a landmark contribution to that understanding — Christianity cannot be seen as a force beyond history, for it was conceived and is practiced according to historical bounds and within human limitations. Yes, faith requires, in Coleridge’s formulation, a willing suspension of disbelief; I do it myself, all the time. But that is a different thing from the suspension of reason and critical intelligence — faculties that tell us that something is not necessarily the case simply because it is written down somewhere or repeated over and over.

Which brings us to the significance of the history of Christianity, and to the relevance of MacCulloch’s book. The story of how the faith came to be is a vast and complex tale of classical philosophy and Jewish tradition, of fantastical visions and cold calculations, of loving sacrifices and imperial ambitions. It was, as Wellington said of Waterloo, a close-run thing: a world religion founded on the brief public ministry, trial and execution of a single Jew in a remote corner of the Roman Empire. In my view, an unexamined faith is not worth having, for fundamentalism and uncritical certitude entail the rejection of one of the great human gifts: that of free will, of the liberty to make up our own minds based on evidence and tradition and reason. John’s Gospel says that “ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Perhaps; I do not know. (No one does; as Paul said, we can only see through a glass, darkly.) But I do know this: Short of the end of all things, it is the knowledge of the history of the faith that can make us free from literalism and ­fundamentalism.

It is difficult to imagine a more comprehensive and surprisingly accessible volume on the subject than MacCulloch’s. This is not a book to be taken lightly; it is more than 1,100 pages, and its bulk makes it hard to take anyplace at all. Want a refresher on the rise of the papacy? It is here. On Charlemagne and Carolingians? That is here, too. On the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath? Look no farther.

To me the appeal of the book lies in its illuminating explications of things so apparently obvious that they would seem to require no explanation. How many common readers could immediately discuss the etymology and significance of the word “Israel”? It comes from a stranger who wrestled Jacob and found him to be admirably resilient. Hence Jacob was given the name Israel, or “He Who Strives With God.” Or would know that Emmaus, the scene of the risen Jesus’ revelation of himself to two disciples over bread and wine, may not have been an actual village in first-century Judea but rather an allusion to another Emmaus, two centuries before, the site of the first victory of the Maccabees over the enemies of Israel, a place where, in the words of the author of I Maccabees, “all the gentiles will know that there is one who redeems and saves Israel”? Or, in a wonderfully revealing insight of MacCulloch’s, that the “daily bread” for which countless Christians ask in the Lord’s Prayer is not what most people think it is, a humble plea for sustenance. “Daily” is the common translation of the Greek word epiousios, which in fact means “of extra substance” or “for the morrow.” As MacCulloch explains, epiousios “may point to the new time of the coming kingdom: there must be a new provision when God’s people are hungry in this new time — yet the provision for the morrow must come now, because the kingdom is about to arrive.” We are a long way from bedtime prayers here.

So how did Christianity happen? In fulfillment of the book’s provocative subtitle, MacCulloch begins his tale in remote antiquity, with the Greek search for meaning and order, the Jewish experience of a fickle but singular Yahweh and the very practical impact of Rome’s early globalism. The predominant peace forged by the empire made the spread of ideas, including Christian ones, all the easier. Politics mattered enormously, and the faith’s temporal good fortune began even before the early fourth century, when Constantine decided that the Christian God was the patron of his military victories. As a tiny minority in the Roman world, Christians knew they could not choose their friends: an early supporter of Christians at court was Marcia, the emperor Commodus’ mistress and the woman who instigated his assassination. Accommodations with the princes of the world drove the rise of the faith, and the will to both religious and political power corrupted it, too. “For most of its existence, Christianity has been the most intolerant of world faiths,” MacCulloch says, “doing its best to eliminate all competitors, with Judaism a qualified exception.”

Powerful allies were crucial, but so was the Apostle Paul, whose writings make up the oldest sections of the New Testament. Partly because of the expectation of the imminent coming of the kingdom, Christianity, MacCulloch writes, “was not usually going to make a radical challenge to existing social distinctions.” Hence Paul’s explicit support for slavery. “Everyone should remain in the state in which he was called,” Paul wrote, and his Epistle to Philemon was, MacCulloch says, “a Christian foundation document in the justification of slavery.”

The example of Christianity and abolition, though, is ultimately a cheering one. An evolving moral sensibility led to critical interpretations of Scripture that demolished the biblical arguments for slavery. “It took original minds to kick against the authority of sacred Scripture,” MacCulloch writes, but thankfully such original minds were in evidence, and their legacy “was an early form of the modern critical reconsideration of biblical intention and meaning.” The sheer complexity of the story of Christianity is a welcome and needed reminder that religion is fluid, not static.

Questions of meaning — who are we, how shall we live, where are we going? — tend to be framed in theological and philosophical terms. But history matters, too, and historians, MacCulloch says, have a moral task: “They should seek to promote sanity and to curb the rhetoric which breeds fanaticism.” That truth provides at least one answer to Pilate’s eternal query.

Jon Meacham, the editor of Newsweek, is the author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning “American Lion: Andrew Jackson in the White House.”


winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #970 on: April 18, 2010, 01:32:03 AM »
TH NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL is my source of inormation about the times of jesus and the way Jews at that time buried their dead.  It was a two step process in which the corpese was lashed together with linen strips i the simplest oes and in that of jesus, and placced on a shel in  a cvelike structure for a year to rot. the entrance blocked with a square or rectangular rock or the most cases but i the one of jesus with a round rock.  the women who stayed way during the interrment came afterwardds to wash the corpse nd this is when they found the tomb empty  and the speculations began.  such imagination.   but humans are blessed or cursed as it may be with just that. IMAGINATION.

The second step consisted in gathering the bones and placing then with the others in the family cript or place in the rock so that all might be together. Later they were encarseated in rather small boxes and with the greek influense expected to arise again but all at once on a given DAY.  more imagiation and it keeps getting  even more elaborate.
thimk

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #971 on: April 18, 2010, 03:14:24 AM »
the resurrection:  I just thought of something relative to a novel I read of the period that might explain the disappearance of the body. There were beliefs in magic and spirites and possession that would allow for dispensing of them as well. The only way to remove a vengeful spirit from the body of Jesus after his death was to take it from its ledge to be drawn and quartered and burnt.
how is that for imagination?
thimk

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #972 on: April 18, 2010, 06:39:20 AM »
Justin is "locked out" again.  He can't find his "reply" button.

Robby

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #973 on: April 18, 2010, 01:34:00 PM »
so justin may have is screen sized too large or too small. my reply button gets lost in the text sometimes just turns dark and shows half of it.  maybe he should restarthis computer.
cliare
thimk

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #974 on: April 18, 2010, 02:18:51 PM »
Emily - i used the term Judeo-Christian as part of a definition of "Western Civilization" as used by academics and historians. We tend to think of the philosophy and culture of "Western Civilizatioin" as growing out of the foundation of Egypt, Greece, Rome and Judeo-Christian history. It is impossible to speak of Christianity and the values and law that comes from it w/out knowing about Jewish history, culture and law.

Here is a site that says it in a more in-depth statement. Ignore the question of whether it is better or worse and scroll down to the syllabus of ideas presented in the course.

 http://people.westminstercollege.edu/faculty/mmarkowski/H112/WC-home.htm

The "Middle East" or "Near East" is considered to be part of that foundation of "western" civilization. The history continues thru Europe and the Americas and includes the laws that we abide by today in most of the "west" and the philosophies of democratic liberalism and individual rights, the scientific and industrial revolutions, etc. ..........jean

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #975 on: April 18, 2010, 04:23:51 PM »
western civilization VS. EASTERN OR asian??. how about AFRICAN and INDONESIAN etc.

.but Jean that says it pretty well right there. I bookmarked it for reference to the discussion on nonbelievers here because it offers a rational approach to thinking about "god" or a higher power which believers have yet to learn. "to doubt is to inquire and to do that is to learn"  I  couldn't agree more. there is lots of backup material here.
cliare
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #976 on: April 18, 2010, 05:26:06 PM »
I think we should read Mac Culloch's work next. He sees core value in Christianity and warns against the damage wrought by literal readers and fundamentalists. His advice is: know the history of Christianity and thereby  free oneself from literalism and fundamentalism. We may not agree that the value in the core of Christianity is worth our interest or adherence but in the "First Three Thousand Years" we at least get the core as well as the magic, mystery, and mumbo-jumbo of modern Christianity exposed.  

Gumtree

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #977 on: April 19, 2010, 12:46:04 PM »
Hi Robby and all - I'm still here lurking around from time to time and have spent some time over the past days catching up with all the posts. Such a wide ranging discussion has my head in a spin.

I really would love to get my hands on the book 'The First Three Thousand Years - thanks for posting the review.

This comment really struck me - The sheer complexity of the story of Christianity is a welcome and needed reminder that religion is fluid not static
  I think it is important to remember that change has always been a factor  within the church because religion, like many things, is a living entity and must change and grow. It is the fundamental core within the ever changing scenario of ritual and ceremony that enables religions to endure and that is the very thing that makes for its complexity.

Anyway,  I'm going to put a request in to my library and see what happens - they're very good and quite often surprise me with what they  can obtain. Maybe as someone suggested it would make a great discussion after 'Civilisation' is finished with.  :D

I also wanted to thank everyone for posting such interesting links - I haven't read them all yet but have bookmarked a few to get back to quickly.

Loved the link to the Sumerian art   - ancient art quite blows my mind. Thanks Winsumm.

Justin suggests that 'most art history folks start with the Willendorf Venus around 25000 BCE and Franco Cave art of 15000 BCE in the Upper Paleolithic era...'
Justin - I gather from that that art historians are still not taking cognisance of the rock art of the Australian aborigines which has many examples now dated to 35000 - 40000 years and there are some believed to be 60000 years old. The art of the Kalahari is another  source of ancient art and yet no mention is made of it either. Is art only art if it originates in the 'old world' ?
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #978 on: April 19, 2010, 03:05:34 PM »
GUM: "Is art only art if it originates in the 'old world' ?"

Good question. The same holds true for history. How many "Histories of the World" are there that cover the Middle East, Greece, and Europe?

But in the context of religious belief, that makes more sense, since that is the historical path our heritage of ideas has taken. Or is it?

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #979 on: April 19, 2010, 05:29:03 PM »
ar originates in the old world?

gee whiz gum. I make art all the time right here in san clemente. art historians either specialize or die I think.  I have a wonderful little book, all pictures called ARCHITECTURE WITHOOUT ARCHITECTS.  lots of dome shaped desert structures in communities I haven't seen the ones from ausrailia and new zealand but that is a good idea. must go ask google to guide me.
claire
thimk

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #980 on: April 19, 2010, 05:36:09 PM »
starting here for FOLK ARCHITECTURE.

http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/vernacular.htm
all over the world. lots with natural materials. a study in itself.
claire

builders o the pacific coast looks wonderful. I could be buying picture books I guess.
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/vernacular.htm

again.
thimk

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #981 on: April 19, 2010, 08:43:46 PM »
Gum: It is true certainly that art historians tend to be selective and very often our choices fall within areas that are accessible. I would choose things that are representative of a class of things and also are located in a place most likely to be visited by ordinary travelers. In choosing the Wilendorf Venus and the Spanish caves and not the French caves nor the Australian nor the New Zealand caves nor the Mexican structures, nor the Southwest USA structures, I have selected a representative work but that does not mean that many of the alternative sites are not discussed. There is more room to deal with a broader selection when one is not coping with the demands of a survey. However even in specialized settings one must be selective.

Are any images available from the Australian settings you mentioned? I'd like very much to see examples of the work of early aboriginal people. Has any thought been given to purpose? Why were the images created? How long have the Maori been resident down under?

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #982 on: April 19, 2010, 09:01:31 PM »
Juastin: "Are any images available from the Australian settings you mentioned? "

In the discussion of "The Book Thief", someone posted beautiful pictures from there, but I can't remember the name of the site to google it.

CLARE: wonderful pictures of vernacular architecture. Did you mean to post the same link twice?

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #983 on: April 20, 2010, 12:53:50 AM »
Justin. How long have the Maori been resident down under?

About 1000 years, perhaps 1100. Their art was mostly tattoos, especially of the face.These of course didn't last more than the lifetime of the tattooed one.

Other art was of carved wood on meeting houses, very popular, and carved greenstone (jade). So precious, it was almost sacred. How they carved it I do not know. They had only stone tools.

The Polynesians took 5000 years to spread across the Pacific from Taiwan to Easter Island, moving always against the trade winds. Having once found new islands to the east, they never returned to their starting point, but settled, then 100 years later sailed on eastward looking for more uninhabited land.

The only time they changed their easterly movement was when they traveled north to Hawaii, (300 AD) and southwest to NZ (1000AD)  In both cases from Tahiti.  ++Trevor

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #984 on: April 20, 2010, 01:26:35 AM »
joan no not twice it got away from me while I was looking for ore examples. now about aboriginal art of australia. let us ask google .
be right back.

some modern versions
http://www.aboriginal-art-australia.com/c/24966/1/utopia.html

it is very popular as decorative art. these are just paintings which as prints are for sale.  there is a lot of material available on line. ask google.
thimk

Gumtree

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #985 on: April 20, 2010, 10:37:20 AM »
Gum:Are any images available from the Australian settings you mentioned? I'd like very much to see examples of the work of early aboriginal people. Has any thought been given to purpose? Why were the images created? How long have the Maori been resident down under?

Justin: I really do appreciate the need for selectivity but if the recent findings of DNA testing which indicates all human races actually stem from one are correct then perhaps it is time for more inclusivity.

And yes, there are lots of images of ancient aboriginal art available - much of the art reflects creation myths and represents the spirits of place and time stemming from the Aboriginal Dreamtime. Other work is thought to be of an instructive nature recording tribal memory and survival skills. Even today, some sites are still held secret by the aboriginal tribal elders who are their traditional owners and who pass the responsibility of caring for the site on to each generation.

Here are a couple of links:

This one gives some background material -

http://www.aboriginalartonline.com/art/rock.php


You need to scroll down for images on this one:

http://www.cap.nsw.edu.au/bb_site_intro/specialplaces/sp
 



This one is a small slide show with commentary: The site was discovered comparatively recently and is rewriting the perceived history of Australia prior to British settlement.

http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2008/national/indigeno


There are countless other sites - some good, some bad. If anyone would like to see more just go to google and ask for aboriginal rock art


Trevor: Thanks -I see you've answered the Maori part of the question except to say that the Maori people did not settle in Australia. - though lots of them live here these days.

JoanK The slide show link above is, I believe, one of two possible sites where Geraldine Brookes has her fictional conservation expert working at the end of People of the Book when she
 is recalled to participate in the final twist of the  Sarajevo Haggadah's journey.


Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #986 on: April 20, 2010, 11:40:30 AM »
I see a couple of those links don't work - will try to fix them.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #987 on: April 20, 2010, 12:45:46 PM »
Finally - I keep getting bumped off -

the interactive  slide show -

http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2008/national/indigenous-rock-art/index.html

Don't forget to scroll down on this one and click on the image for a larger pic

http://www.cap.nsw.edu.au/bb_site_intro/specialplaces/special_places_st3/Nourlangie/nourlangie.htm


and another:

http://Kimberleycoastalcamp.com.au/rockart_gallery.asp



Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #988 on: April 20, 2010, 12:58:34 PM »
Winsumm Thanks for posting the link to some contemporary aboriginal paintings. These are quite different from the ancient art though they all have a narrative - which is not always easy to discern.The aboriginal communities churn them out day after day - some fetch enormous prices on the international market and some have been exhibited in the Louvre.

This is off topic - but I thought you'd be interested in hearing that we had an earthquake here in Western Australia today - it was 4.8 and located near Kalgoorlie about 400 miles north east of where I am in Perth. Kalgoorlie is an old gold rush town - still getting gold out of the ground along with other minerals. Lots of the old heritage buildings have been badly damaged and may have to come down. We don't have many earthquakes here and they are usual fairly small events - last big one was in the early 1970s and was a 7 - destroyed a small rural town. 
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #989 on: April 20, 2010, 03:56:03 PM »
We seem to be going through another cycle of earthquakes around the Pacific Rim and environs.
I am saddened to here that some historical buildings may have to be torn down because of the damage.

Justin

  • Posts: 253
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #990 on: April 21, 2010, 12:34:24 AM »
Gumtree, Trevor: Thank you very much. There is much to assimilate here. The paintings are similar in many respects to those found at Lascaux in France and in Spain. There are stick figures in both areas and animals as well. There may some religious symbolism in both as well. The French animals and tools as well as weapons are thought to connect with the hunt. I suspect those images of Australian animals are also related to the hunt though there are fewer weapons in evidence. Creation spirits are depicted as well as god enemies of women.

 Unlike the Australian rock paintings that have been exposed to the weather the European works were found in caves on walls that were sheltered from the weather so the quality of the paintings is very good. The paintings in Australia on the other hand have been refreshed by Aboriginal people who have assumed responsibility for their care.

The contemporary Aboriginals (why not?) show both the qualities of originality and tradition in their new works.
You should be very pleased with their forms, Claire, some of which are figurative as well as abstract.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #991 on: April 27, 2010, 07:03:51 AM »
Paul II
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Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #992 on: April 27, 2010, 07:05:13 AM »
The lives of great men oft remind us that a man’s characxter can e formed after his demise. 

If a ruler coddles the chroniclers about him they may lift him to posthumous sanctity.  If he offends them they may broil his corpse on a spit of venom or roast him to darkest infamy in a pot of ink.  Paul II quarreled with Platina.  Platina wrote the biography upon which most estimates of Paul depend and handed him down to posterity as a monster of vanity, pomp, and greed.

There was some truth in the indictment, though not much more than might be found in any biography untempered with charity.  Pietro Barbo, Cardinal of San Marco, was proud of his handsome appearance, as nearly all men are.  When elected pope he proposed, probably in humor, to be called Formosus – good looking.  He allowed himself to be dissuaded and took the title of Paul II.  Simple in his private life, yet knowing the hypnotic effect of magnificence he kept a luxurious court and entertained his friends and guests with costly hospitality.

 On entering the conclave that elected him he, like the other cardinals, had pledged himself, if chosen, to wage war against the Turks, to summon a general council, to limit the number of cardinals to twenty four and the number of papal relatives among them to one, to create no man a cardinal under thirty years of age, and to consult the cardinals on all important appointments. 

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #993 on: April 29, 2010, 05:24:52 AM »
What an interesting job description..........."to wage war against the Turks" has not been heard in recent history - unless you are Armenian.
24 cardinals..........wonder how many there are today.........don't hire your relatives! Probably always a good idea.  I guess that was more of a problem  at the time, especially if they got elevated to the position of bishop or cardinal.........jean

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #994 on: April 29, 2010, 10:38:50 PM »
Quote
On entering the conclave that elected him he, like the other cardinals, had pledged himself, if chosen, to wage war against the Turks, to summon a general council, to limit the number of cardinals to twenty four and the number of papal relatives among them to one, to create no man a cardinal under thirty years of age

It is simple to see why this job description came about. Calixtus brought it on with his nepotism and appointing very young lads (his nephews) ages 23, 24, and 25 into Cardinals and Vice-Chancellor of the Papal Court.

Quote
Paul II quarreled with Platina.  Platina wrote the biography upon which most estimates of Paul depend and handed him down to posterity as a monster of vanity, pomp, and greed.

Durant does not say what the quarrel was about, but I sense jealousy on Platina's part. Anyone who writes either a total condemnation or a total whitewash is not a good biographer in my opinion.

Since I only read non fiction and do read many bio's, there is nothing worse than the 'all bad' or 'all good' type of writing. Both have an agenda, and I never read bio's for the writers point of view, but a balanced look at a persons life without prejudice. It is rare to find such a writer.

Nicholas got the same treatment, but from a writer with a different agenda. According to Durant his biographer wrote from 'love', and tried to declare Nicholas as perfection itself. All those descriptive adjectives he laid on Nicholas were those of lover more than a biographer.

So few writers can keep themselves out of the story they are telling, and when one does, it is such a pleasure to read. Nothing is worse than a 'snowjob', or harder to accept. If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.

Emily




 

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #995 on: April 30, 2010, 03:10:13 PM »
I agree. People's legacies seem to go through stages. At first, we get biographies telling us only how wonderful they were. Then there seems to be a reaction, and we hear only how awful they were.

Reading in  "troublesome Young Men" about Churchill was interesting. Here was a man whose strengths and weaknesses made him the perfect person for the time and place where he found himself. Had he been somewhere else, those same weaknesses might have made him a collossal failure.

We all have a mix of strengths and weaknesses. Of good and bad. (except you of course). A biographer who doesn't recognize this is certainly suspect.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #996 on: May 05, 2010, 11:20:15 PM »
I wanted to see what the Catholic church had to say about Paul 11. Here is an excerpt from the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Quote
His suppression in 1466 of the college of abbreviators aroused much opposition, intensified by a similar measure against the Roman Academy. Platina, a member of both organizations, who had been repeatedly imprisoned, retaliated by writing a calumnious biography of Paul II.

That Paul II was not opposed to Humanistic studies, as such, is evidenced by the fact that he protected universities, encouraged the art of printing, and was himself a collector of works of ancient art. The suppression of the Roman Academy was justified by the moral degeneracy and pagan attitude which it fostered

Now we understand what the argument between Platina and Paul was about. The Roman academy and the college of abbreviators (whatever that is) was opposed by Paul and since Platina was a member of both, they argued.

The quote says Platina was imprisoned many times. Paul could have been as coldhearted as Nicholas and had his nemisis beheaded instead of prison, then he might have received better treatment in his biography, written by someone else. Dead men tell no tales.

Paul did not oppose Humanism, protected Universities, encouraged printing, and collected works of ancient art the article states. He did some restoration and seemed more like Nicholas in that he liked to spend money also on his wealthy friends.

The Encyclopedia states that Paul was right in his suppression of the Roman Academy because of its moral degeneracy and pagan attitude.

The pagan attitude is essential for progress. Can one imagine what the world today would look like if we all believed the universe was only 5,770 years old, or that we were still living in the 12th century. Hurray for pagans and heretics who chose science over the gods.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11578a.htm

Emily



Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #997 on: May 06, 2010, 12:24:25 AM »
I did a little snooping around on Google regarding the College of Abbreviators. They were the bunch that prepared formal documents such as papal bulls, formal letters, writs and the like before they were written out by the scriptores. They got their name from the "excessive" use of abbreviations. Paul II saw abuses and corruption within the group which he sought to suppress.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #998 on: May 06, 2010, 10:57:31 PM »
Thank you, Frybabe. I thought as much, but since the link did not say, it was best not to speculate.

Quote
They got their name from the "excessive" use of abbreviations.

If Paul thought abbreviations were excessive then, what would he do today in our world. Nearly every organization is named so that its abbreviation has some meaning or is easy to remember. We even remember our presidents by their initials. The Defense department has so many acronyms their meaning would be impossible for the average person to decipher.

Perhaps they began with RCC (Roman Catholic Church).

Texting would probably be a capital offense.

Emily

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #999 on: May 15, 2010, 11:52:32 PM »
It occurred to me that Pious 2 and Paul 2. straddled the taking of Constantinople by the Turks. The Turks subsequently found their advance into Europe Stopped  at tne gates of Vienna. Had the Muslims broken through at that time, those of us Americans who originated in Europe, could well be Muslim to day. It was a near thing.

Another thought. When Islam took Constantinople it straddled the eastern trade routes blocking Europe from it's access to the eastern ports, many of which had been opened by Marco Polo, and thus forced Spain, Portugal, Engand, and the Italian city states  to find a new route to the east and that led to the opening of the new world. Isn't that interesting?