Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  1: (pp-112)

1. Sisyphus!   Sillybos! Persephone!  Demeter!  Hades!  Dionysus! Parthenope!  Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena!  Cybele! Harpy! And many more!   The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion.  What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.

2.   "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?

3.   What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie  and her point of view have on the reader?  Do you think this narrator so far is  reliable? Why or why not?

4.   Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events.  Why?

5.   Do you understand the tetraktys? What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)?   Does anyone know anything about  Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory?  What does the word tetraktys itself mean?

6. What are the some of the  main conflicts in this first section?

7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved  with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?

8.  Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go?  Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?

9.   How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of  imagery you particularly liked?

10. We have  a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how  many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)

11.  What foreshadowing did you notice  in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you?   Do you think the phone call was from  Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?

12.  What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?

13. What are some of the emerging themes of this first section?[/b]


-------------1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings         (Deems)
-------------2. being buried alive (Deems)
-------------3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells (Deems)
-------------4. a descent into the underworld (Deems)
-------------5. drowning (ginny)
-------------6.Sophie and her mother (drowned?) (Deems)
-------------7. Demeter and Persephone (mother and daughter)(Deems)
-------------8. Sophie and Agnes (Deems)
-------------9. Iusta and her mother Vitalis (Deems)
------------10. male treatment of women (bellamarie)
------------11. past and present and how it effects the future (bellamarie)

14. Have you learned something you did not know previously in the first 112 pages? If so what?

15. What IS important or seems important so far to Sophie?

16. What is the main "Take Home" thing you got from the first 112 pages (Mippy)

17. -----What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What is her function? What about her appearance in hallucination with her son?

18. " Yes. I've decided, yes." (page 87). Why did Sophie decide to go on the dig?

19. Do you think  that "Sophie sees herself as a modern day feminist?" Would it be fair to say she is?  (bellamarie)

20. What steps do the people who have holes, or an emptiness, take to try to fill the void? (Marcie)

21.What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What is her function? What about her appearance in hallucination with her son?

22.  Do you think Ely represents Universal Person seeking religion? Or what is he seeking? (Norma). What are they all seeking if anything?

Schedule Chapters 1-9 for  June 1 - 7 Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14 Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

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Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

In the first week of June, Week I  we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in  the first 112 pages. If your question  may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one  for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Roman books as  papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
  A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.



New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

Thank you Pat.

[ginny]

Wow! ANOTHER new page? Page 8 already? Wow, thank you for holding that post, Pat,  and lots of great comments on page 7, but am fighting storms and need to say one thing before being blown off because it's priceless.

I just heard from Edith Anne, who some of you know fell and broke her hip a couple of weeks ago, and has a new hip as a result. She's doing well in rehab, but the hospital lost her copy of The  Night Villa, which she had so carefully taken along with her.  When the hospital stripped the bed linens they took The Night Villa with them, and after a search, told her you don't want it now, it's in the hospital laundry so her husband brought her a new one and she hopes to be home weekend after next and join us then.

Now THAT'S dedication!

Lots of good questions still on page 7 in the posts, the heading is too long, so join right in!!

You all may be right about Elgin's critique of Sophie's thesis! I finally found her sort of admitting an over involvement on page 56. (Is this a magic book? Every time I read it I see something new). I may quibble about this one tho, when am not being struck by lightning.. hahahaa But EA's story (Edith Anne) was  too good to keep.

[winsummm]

yep a right triangle is a pythagorean triangle. one angle is ninety degrees and the other two are complementary thirty degrees and sixty degrees. they are very useful in architecture.  I did remember after all from geometry  in the tenth grade. hah

claire

[bellamarie]

Deems, thank you for that........but now what does it all mean pertaining to this story?   lololol

I tackled the whole Plato, Pythagorean theory, and am suspecting this cult, that uses the triangle and number codes, could be a hint to evolution.  What power do they think they possess?  My take is,  its not about Mathematics per say, it has to do with the theory of possibly the "geometry of creation of body and soul", and of course harmony etc. 

As President Obama would say....."I think its above my pay grade."  lolol
Sorry, no political stand intented, I personally am an Independent.

We haven't heard the last of this cult, or Ely I suspect.

Catbrown, I think Elgin made his reason for wanting Sophie to come to Italy clear, he knew how much she has been working on the Iusta story and he wanted to give her the opportunity to see the scrolls first hand.  He knows what this would mean to her and to the university.  Her contribution is not only the expertise of her knowledge she has from writing her paper, but the finished product of her thesis will give the universtiy high accolades.  hmmmm have you read ahead? 

[bellamarie]

Edith Ann I wish you a speedy recovery and can't wait for you to join us.  Wow, that is true dedication indeed.

Ginny, Please don't get struck by lightening, you are too valuable to us.  And I would love to quibble with you.  Who knows, you may even win some of us over.  NOT!!  Just kidding. 

Ciao for now............

[Deems]

bellamarie--I have no idea just what the triangles mean in this novel (we haven't finished it yet .  I did find a connection between Pythagoras and the Orphic mystery cult.  It followed the Eleusinian cult and had similar views about the immortality of the soul.  Anyway, apparently Pythagoras was an initiate.  The only other link I can find is to Ely and his creepy cult, and I agree with you--we'll see (or hear?) more from Ely.

Has anyone else noticed that Sophie gets over the murders (and her own wounding) very quickly?  I don't mean physically.  I mean psychologically.  Two people died, she might have, and all of a sudden she's back on the trail of Iusta and meeting yet another man, the rich dude who reminds me of Bill Gates (except that he's apparently single).  I expect we'll hear more about him too.  His name is John and, is it, Lyric? 

[bellamarie]

Deems...Yes, I questioned the quickness of Sophie's recovery, and asked Carol if it's possible she is a figment of a story or dream, because my logical thinking, is NO ONE could recover and do all the things Sophie has done so quickly.  She responded saying, "No, Sophie is not Super Natural, she is a TEXAN."  Now with all due respect to our very gifted author, and even taking into consideration she consulted her polmonologist, and asked if someone could resume normal duties after this damage to her lung, and he said yes, and Carol pointed out Sophie did stay in the hospital for two weeks, making the argument she would be somewhat healed I suppose.  I still question it, because you lose more strength when in a hospital, due to not exercising your dexterity's.  Mowing the lawn the very day she came home, with half a lung shot out....I know Texans are rough and tough, but I still am not so sure about all the activity Sophie has done so soon afterwards.  Physically or psychologically it seems a bit much. 

I totally agree with your observation Deems, and like Carol also said, she will see the consequences.  I can't wait to see what they are. 

I also questioned, if Sophie herself was going through some sort of initiation, since I found those cults use intoxicating substances that cause allusions or delusions.  She sure has had her share of them.

Ciao for now......

[catbrown]

Catbrown, I think Elgin made his reason for wanting Sophie to come to Italy clear, he knew how much she has been working on the Iusta story and he wanted to give her the opportunity to see the scrolls first hand.  He knows what this would mean to her and to the university.  Her contribution is not only the expertise of her knowledge she has from writing her paper, but the finished product of her thesis will give the universtiy high accolades.  hmmmm have you read ahead?  

He wanted to give her an opportunity? My point exactly. How did he get that funded? Wouldn't she have to have a role in the project that was more defined than that? Maybe not ... I'm not an expert on how these kinds of projects are funded and staffed, but it seems, well, fishy to me. Also, the project wasn't funded by the university, so her work adding to its prestige wouldn't fly for funding purposes ... or would it?

And, Bellamarie, yup, I have read the whole book, but I think the question is a fair one based only on the info we're given in these first few chapters.

Cathy

[NormaLemke]

Bellamarie's information about Pythagoras led back to Plato and the idea of a universal soul. In light of Ely's involvement with the Pythgorian cult, is he representing a universal soul. He is troubled, can't find meaning for his life. Isn't this the universal person looking for religion and aren't the mystery rites a religion?

Deems- Calc II stopped me cold also. It was like finding out I wasn't who I thought I was.

[bellamarie]

Sophie identifies closely with Iusta, and she mentions she feels Iusta was a feminist.  Would it be fair to say Sophie is a feminist? 

[Deems]

Norma--Good to know that I have company.  When I hit the wall (and it really truly felt like a real wall) in Calc II, I realized that I was going to have to rethink math as a major. 

catbrown--I'd say that Elgin wants Sophie in on the project for his own reasons --Ely is apparently gone, and the two had had an affair, but  he could easily get her there on the argument that her dissertation had been on Iusta and new information about the slave girl would likely be found, leading to another publication for her.  All he would have to do would be to make that argument to John L. who apparently has all the money in the world.  I don't trust him.  Actually I don't trust either man.  And then there's Ely about whom we simply don't have enough information.

I'm not at all worried about Elgin's advice to Sophie to de-romanticize her dissertation.  She had over identified with her subject.  A dissertation needs to be "scholarly," or objective and disinterested. He was just doing his job as her director.

[Gumtree]

Catbrown On the question of Elgin taking Sophie on the dig...It was Elgin's project - he was the driving force who initially found the funding - he was in charge of the project and could select those who accompanied him as he did with Agnes in the interview where the shooting took place. Also Sophie had been his first choice to go with him before appointing Barry Biddle who died when Dale Henry opened fire in the boardroom.

[bellamarie]

NormaLemke, Dale was also a lost soul according to Agnes.  pg. 65  "He seemed, well, I know this sounds so weird after what he did, but he seemed so sweet when I met him....just kind of lost..."

catbrown, On pg. 47 Elgin and Sophie discuss her going..... "And not only hasn't PISA pulled out, but we have a new benefactor: the Lyrik Foundation."   "Really? I thought the Lyrik Foundation had turned you down, and considering that Barry was half the project-"  "Please.  Biddle was a deadweight on the project-no disrespect to the dead intended.  You were always my first choice."  

Then on pg. 51 "Two Gaius Petronius Stephanuses in Herculaneum at the same time period?"  Elgin, asks, lifting an eyebrow.  "That's what I love about you Sophie, you're a skeptic.  You don't accept any data without proof.  It makes you a rigorous scholar.  Most people would be jumping up and down right now overjoyed that the subject of their thesis and the book they're working on had just showed up in a lost document, but not you."

I believe Elgin has genuine respect for Sophie.  I think the two of them hold each other in high regard for their positions.  Elgin may be a cad in his personal relationships, but I feel he takes his job seriously.  Keep in mind Sophie turned him down the first time he asked, pg. 16 ""I wouldn't have minded being a part of the project if Elgin had a shred of evidence that the multispectral imaging was going to work on the papyrus scrolls from the Villa della Notte,  or if he'd framed the project as an experiment, but instead he'd gone around spreading outrageous claims for the technology and promising lost manuscripts to gullible students like Agnes."  

So as far as eligibility I did not see that an issue. On pg. 16-17 Elgin said, "But I'm afraid there's only money enough for us to take one, so that's why we're holding this interview___"

Ciao for now............sleep tight.

[bellamarie]

Gumtree...the tooth fairy.  Nice to see you, we are like ships passing in the night.  Its like old times, me signing off and you signing on.  Have a good day!

Ciao for now.........its bedtime for me.  zzzzz 

[Steph]

I guess I am a minority, but Elgin seems to be a good professor and teacher.. He wants Sophie who I suspect he regards as someone he has helped to go with him, because he feels she will add to the project. Even though he is a romeo according to the book, he is also someone who wants to do well and explore things. I also suspect that he may have some feelings for Sophie that she has not even understood.

[Babi]

YIKES!  Eight pages of posts, and I just got my book last night.  I'll never be able to read all that, and I don't want to spoil the story for myself. Still, I'll read the book and maybe join you when I catch up.

[bellamarie]

Steph....I'm with you.  I agree with everything you mentioned and used his own words to show why I feel he's her mentor/professor/friend.  They tried the relationship thing and it didn't work out.  Maybe he does still have some lingering feelings.  Seems she has some lingering feelings for Ely.  She has made it pretty clear to Elgin she does not want anything more than professional relationship with him, at least that is how I see it.

Babi...Jump in, the plot will entice you, and you can always catch up.

[ginny]

Deems "Has anyone else noticed that Sophie gets over the murders (and her own wounding) very quickly?  I don't mean physically.  I mean psychologically. "

I also agree with you and Bellamarie, and there's been a lot more psychological trauma too, much more than a lot of people could bear without something going on:  the loss of the baby, we don't know how many years before, we don't know how old she is now (do we?) the concurrent   abandonment of her ..partner…..whom I think she suspects of loitering outside her house, so she's definitely not over him, but perhaps, since we have direct access to her thoughts, she's done a superhuman job of repressing this? Pouring herself into her work?

That's why I asked originally what seems the most important to her.  What does? Have all these traumas actually screwed up her thinking? They are bound to have had some impact.  Dr. Phil would have a field day with this one.

I could NOT see, for instance, any connection between her and Iusta, at all. I mean read the  Deiss. Both of their mothers were dead? Was that it?

 I did not see any connection till I read again the bit on page 56 where Elgin says "Admit it….when you describe Vitalis paying off Calatoria you see your mother shoving it to your mean old grandmother, and the little girl…."

And apparently that aspect is what she honed in on? We don't have her draft, we have no idea. That's not what stood out for me in the Iusta  story, I don't think that was actually the fact, you tell me, I actually still am having a time.

Here's what Deiss says on page 98:

And the girl Justa was accepted into the master's household and brought up "like a daughter" though illegitimate. For a decade and more all were in accord, all harmonious and happy.

But the peace dissolved at the birth of children to Gaius Petronius. Friction arose between his wife Calatoria and the freedwoman Petronia Vitalis. Arguments were unresolved, jealousies sharpened. Petronia Vitalis, as a freedwoman, could no longer be constrained to remain in her master's hosue: she chose to leave. She wanted a home of her own and economic independence. Apparently she was willing to work hard for what she wanted. But her master and his  wife refused to relinquish Justa: a child brought up like a daughter, she was looked upon as their own.

Indignant at being deprived of her daughter, Petronia Vitalis brought suit against Gaius Petronius. After extensive negotiation, the case was settled with the award of Justa to her own mother, provided that Gaius Petronius be reimbursed for the cost of  Justa's food and upkeep during the years of her childhood and adolescence. Petronia Vitalis, who had done very well for herself, immediately made the payment and received her daughter into her own home.

From Herculaneum Italy's Buried Treasure by Joseph Jay Deiss

There's nothing there, to me, to relate to. It's not there?  This is NOT the lawsuit which we will be talking about, there were two. There …I don’t see it? So in that if she did identify Elgin was right.

Adding to the second lawsuit (are you surprised to see women in the ancient world bringing LAWSUITS?) Carol knows a lot about women in antiquity, I don't, so this is going to be a learning experience for all of us, but adding interest, the stepmother Calatoria who brought the second lawsuit was herself a former slave, a freedwoman.


Stephanie, I was trying to see Elgin and this male dominating vs female thing but the puzzle did not fit. A Romeo he might be, and most of us have seen the type but it seems in this I was wrong to want to correct him, it I guess was Sophie who was wrong in her "overidentification, "  who knows? Without looking AT her draft we have no idea really WHAT he is or why he's saying it, I'll retract my objection to his behavior.

Babi, welcome, welcome!! YOU can catch us!

More…

[ginny]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Have you ever noticed when you're reading a book, suddenly there are references to what's in it everywhere?

I'm reading No Touch Monkey by Ayun Halliday, about her travels, this time in Bali. It's non fiction, I don't like to read fiction when we're discussing fiction,  so I don't get mixed up any more than normal.  That would make a good question for Carol, actually:

Carol: when you are writing a book  are you able to simultaneously read the fiction of others? What authors have inspired you?

Anyway, here we are with Ayun Halliday in Bangkok, getting visas for Cambodia, and she says:

She was grateful we hadn't followed Danny to one of those Thai islands were backpackers converged to reenact The Bacchae every full moon.

There are the Bacchae again!!! Can you believe that? Small world. (I never knew backpacking thru Europe was such a nasty dirty experience, but I don't think anybody would take it up after reading her book. Somebody must have scared her about soap and water…she's patently quite proud of being filthy,   but I digress).

Actually once at Stonehenge at obviously the wrong time of the year I encountered a whole MOB, and I mean MOB of…er…pilgrims to the site, it was some kind of phase of the moon or something...best avoided if possible. This is before they shut off the site and made people pay entry  and so forth.

[ginny]

I thought Marcie had a good question, also: What steps do the people who have holes, or an emptiness, take to try to fill the void?

I'll add one: what is the BIGGEST void you see that Sophie has in her life?

I've followed way behind in putting the themes in the heading, sorry, will work on that today.

Which one of the several voids (poor woman must feel  like a piece of Swiss cheese) is the main one Sophie has in her life?

I would almost say needing to be meaningful to SOMEBODY who would not leave, how best to say that?

Claire, I think you have something there. Here is a person who can translate ancient scrolls of a particular interest: the lawsuit. Here is a villa very close to Herculaneum (still can't find map but it's a short walk) IN the park,  where there may be more documents AND the ability to read them. If we  read the links or the books on the ancient papyri  we can  see how rare that is.

So naturally she would be excited and interested,  is that her prime motivation?

I also think Cathy's question is a good one. We can see Elgin got  the funding and has offered internships, and as    has said Barry was going along as translator, and they can only pay for one: but if you have somebody who has spent untold hours researching and reading the subject, she would be the best, if approachable, to do the work.  That would be her function. I like this bit of the book, entering the scene where they are revolving around an interview for this expedition: kind of like Jurassic Park?  Possibly she would be  better at  translating Justa than he was.

OK now all you Math Dudes, your talk of math might as well be in Urdu, to me, so you'll have to not only translate but help us here with it: I'm a tabula rasa when it comes to math. I loved geometry in the 8th grade but never seemed to arrive at the correct answer, tho loved the process. Very orderly.

Now here Deems tackles the issue: I did find a connection between Pythagoras and the Orphic mystery cult.  It followed the Eleusinian cult and had similar views about the immortality of the soul.

Wow, now we're going to need all hands on deck when we get to the mysterious Eleusinian cults. I once followed up a link and found some of it surviving  today in the Masons, I bet you don't believe that, in their mystery rituals. But apparently there were a lot of variations (let's hope so, what I've read about the original  is a total turn off).


Norma: In light of Ely's involvement with the Pythgorian cult, is he representing a universal soul. He is troubled, can't find meaning for his life. Isn't this the universal person looking for religion and aren't the mystery rites a religion?

A universal soul? What an interesting comment. In the Deiss book there is this quote by Paul MacKendrick:

To come to know a fragment of our past is to recognize a piece of ourselves.

Is this why we read? To  recognize a piece of ourselves? I'm thinking overarching themes here, let's watch the parallels, if there are any, I still don't see them, between Justa and Sophie. But there may be more than we realize.

And there again in Norma's thought we come back to the current PBS series with Joseph Campbell. Do you all believe what he said (somewhere on page 7 here) or do you believe that the ancients had myths as Norma asked,  the universal person looking for religion

How would we answer Norma's question above? Is Ely  the "Universal person looking for religion"...and thus meaning in life. And so is that  what this is about ultimately? Maybe our current idea of "looking for meaning in life" or "wanting to make a difference" MAY come slap up against the ancients and their own ideas.

What a good discussion!

Bellamarie says Would it be fair to say Sophie is a feminist?

What do you say to that? What is YOUR definition of a "feminist," we've had one here already. Let me try to add all these questions to the heading which will become too long, but check there for new ones if I can stay on.

The chimney sweep is here and he says yesterday in this storm he lost all of the pictures of his granddaughter and 50 percent of his hard drive so I need to be careful here.

[ginny]

The back of this book has a Reader's Guide in it. I like never to ignore Reader's Guides done by  others, for some reason they seem to spark discussion so how about #6?  Who is your favorite character so far in The Night Villa? Who is your least favorite?

We can do our own little Twitter here. Let's add WHY to the mix?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[ginny]

Oh (sun is out!) I've been thinking about this ever since Gum mentioned it: This raises the question of the Gregorian Chant  which has  a limited range, and whether it uses the Pythagorean scale.  The musical range today is a modified or tempered version of a exponential scale eg. J.S. Bach's Well Tempered Clavier of 48 compositions demonstrates the effectiveness of his tempered exponential scale.

Lately for some reason I've hauled out the Bach Inventions, two and three part. For some reason playing these (when I'm actually able to) really gives me a lot of pleasure again even tho I sound like an elephant on the keys.

Are they also somehow connected mathematically? They say they (along with Mozart) make you smarter, but as yet there seems no sighting of same here? hahahaa

[ginny]

Ok heading updated as to questions and themes, I hope, what have we left out?

PS: This is supposedly one of the best sites (according to the Cambridge people) for Greek and Roman gods:


http://www.theoi.com/Pantheon.html

Good heavens, have you all LOOKED at the page marcie is doing in the heading here? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

That is VERY impressive, Marcie, thank you so much!

Will you add Herculaneum Italy's Buried Treasure by Joseph Jay Deiss?

Information on Petronia Justa and her lawsuit as well as the imaging of the papyri,  The Villa Dei Papiri and Herculaneum. Another excellent Getty book, but in black and white.

[pedln]

Babi, I understand where you’re coming from, and I’m trying to catch up from only two days. And trying to understand it all without much of a math (nothing after Algebra II) or classical literature background. I’m familiar with the names, but not the specifics, so all the posts here are very enlightening.  Thank goodness for them.

Ginny asks, “What’s a Texan?”  I think of Giant – lots of holdings, lots of power.  Have only beent to Houston – lots of traffic.  From literature I get the idea that Texans think they’re bigger and better and can do anything.

I’ve been half buying into the idea that Elgin is really a good teacher/mentor/academian, (I know Steph and Bellamarie think so) but I have trouble forgetting about Professor Romeo, and keep thinking that Elgin wants what will make Elgin look good and will go to any lengths to get it.   On p. 47 – Elgin says, “We have a new benefactor, the Lyrik Foundation.”  And Sophie, “I thought the Lyrik Foundation had turned you down.”  

Did Elgin put the cart before the horse?  Did he tell John L. that Dr. Chase, an authority on the lost document of G. Petronius, would now be part of the project?  And now he has to persuade Sophie? Probably hogwash, but I just don’t trust Elgin.  I think Sophie’s reasons for not going originally, are legitimate.

Claire --

by the way such an ugly name for a beautiful but asexual woman.  

  I’ve always felt that way about the Latin word for beautiful – pulcher.  So ugly. (I’m reminded of a lecture by Eliot Engel on our language – the harshness of “cow” compared to the more pleasant French of “boeuf” )

More speculation, wild theories.  P. 59 --  talking about JohnL. “At that point his CV goes blank for almost FIVE years.  Another trek in the Himalayas, I wonder?”     JohnL was a classics and math major, PhD candidate.  Did he get caught up in the tetraktys?  Take a vow of silence?  Parallels between Ely and John?

Andy and Ginny, I find those three questions from P. Golden Verses fascinating, and am glad you put them in the discussion.  I think we’ll see them again.  My first thought was that those are really not bad questions to ask oneself, except there is an assumption of guilt and wrong-doing, that one is perhaps not a good person.

Bellamarie, good point.  

Sophie, does not seem to have any  particular material attachments of importance, except for her thesis.  I think her education and her teaching job stands out to be the center of her purpose in life at this point.

What does she have?  Her aunt, but apparently no other loving, caring relationships. Probably friends and colleagues, but no one really close, not for five years.  Only work.  Sad.

I’ve spent the morning here, and my head is still spinning.

[Deems]

pedln--It's all enough to make the mind spin, no?  And then we have the interesting problems presented by our first-person narrator. 

I for one cannot figure out HOW when Sophie is delirious (or dreaming) she can remember what has happened with such incredible detail.  I've had fever dreams myself which were indecipherable when I was in them and definitely not something that I could put into words afterward. 

So there's Sophie on the floor of the nun's convent, now a hotel, and she remembers afterward all the strange happenings that occurred when she was running a high fever (pneumonia as it turns out).  I just don't buy it.  Not sure if it is appropriate to call her an "unreliable narrator," though I certainly don't trust her, but something is amiss with her --or with the characterization. 

[bellamarie]

Pedln...

More speculation, wild theories.  P. 59 --  talking about JohnL. “At that point his CV goes blank for almost FIVE years.  Another trek in the Himalayas, I wonder?”     JohnL was a classics and math major, PhD candidate.  Did he get caught up in the tetraktys?  Take a vow of silence?  Parallels between Ely and John?

Oh dear me....I was just about to type this and alas!!!  you beat me to it.  I had spent the entire morning going back over my reading, since Ginny mentioned this book seems magical every time she turns around something else is there.  Now I have a list of things that can be clues and connections, be patient with me.

1.  All the males seem to be mathematical geniuses.  (although I don't really think the actual equations have anything to do with anything, I am still thinking its all about geometry = body and soul etc. the Plato/Pythagorean theory)
2.  Clare, Iusta, Vitalis, and Sophie are feminists. (Clare was about to move into a feminists co-op.)
3.  John, Sam, Ely, Odette, Agnes, Dale, Paul, and Ely's parents all I suspect have become members of the cult.
4.  John after his 5 yrs of silence was sent out on a mission which is to fund the Villa De Notte trip.
5.  Each member is sent out after their initiation and 5 yrs is up which means Ely will be on his  mission which I feel will show up in Italy.
6. pg. 34 During her vision of Odette, after Sophie asks "Haven't I gone back far enough?" Odette's voice says, "It's not the direction you should be going in at all."  "Many are the narthex bearers, but few are the Bacchoi."  Then Charles says the same mantra to Sophie when she asked about Dale, Charles said, "Alot of lost souls come looking for something to fill thier empty places."  "Many are the narthex bearers, but few are the Bacchio." pg. 76
7.  Orange is the color representing the cult.  Odette's clothes were orange, Agnes had on the orange sweatshirt,  pg 24-25 "If only you had heeded the portents and signs!  The code of rings, the message of the tower, the sign of fire in Odette's skin."  
8.  The mention of the tastes or scents which I belive are intoxicants of the cult members: Odette during the vision, gingery pomade, cocoa and cinnamon.  When Sophie goes home from the hospital after losing the baby, the sickly sweet odor from Ely's room.  Sam has chamomile tea for Agnes and the taste of sulfur when Sophie is in the hospital.
9.  Sophie over idenifies with Vitalis and Iusta..pg 55 "just like you mother- when ever I slept too late."  On the back of Odette's robe it said, "Some times I wake up grumpy.  And sometimes I let her sleep in."  
10. Agnes seems to be inticing Sophie to join them on the trip.  I don't think Agnes is the sweet forlorn girl Sophie sees her as.  Why would she live with all them guys?  Only one girl.  She says she had a lot of friends. Dale started isolating her. Sophie notices in the picture of Agnes she was  heavier a few years ago. Dale lost weight , Ely went on a strict diet, and John Lyros had changed, his head was shaven, his nose broken. All of these indicate to me the changes that they go through initiation.
11.  pg 87 Sophie is standing looking out her window she had gotten up because she couldn't sleep, Agnes comes on line says, "You couldn't sleep either?"  How did she know Sophie was up?
12.  Agnes had dark circles under her eyes when Sophie came to visit. Signs of staying up reading the "The New Age" reincarnation and numerology, books like Ely and Dale.
13.  Ely's bedroom as a boy had the solar system hanging, burnt rust carpet, his room in Sophie's house had the solar system hanging.
14.  Charles touched his rib in the same area Sophie had been shot.  He referred to as an empty place.
15.  Agnes's screen name..icon Brad Pitt as Achilles..Latinlover66, not so innocent I say.

I really am wondering about M'Lou now also since she said she was going to the "Whole food store."  Why make the mention?   I can't quite wrap my head around why I keep seeing Sohie is being put through an initiation of some sort.  

Ginny...the connection I see Sophie has with Iusta is "feminism and freedom."

Okay so now like the rest of you, there is much to think about and figure out.  I can't wait to read the next pages.  No ONE is as they appear to be.........

Ciao for now............

[bellamarie]

I wanted to bold more of my points above but the computer went into its weird state again and was not able to finish.  Does anyone else have this problem?  It happens to me while in the preview edit.  Out of no where it won't allow me to do what I want to do.  I really think its the site's glitch and not my computer.  ?

[bellamarie]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Pedln...

Did Elgin put the cart before the horse?  Did he tell John L. that Dr. Chase, an authority on the lost document of G. Petronius, would now be part of the project?  And now he has to persuade Sophie? Probably hogwash, but I just don’t trust Elgin.  I think Sophie’s reasons for not going originally, are legitimate.

Nope...I don't think so, I think John Lyros's mission after his 5 yrs of initiation and silence was to fund this trip.

So we have a ton of puzzle pieces here, BUT we have NO box top to show us the puzzle.  Or as Ginny keeps saying, "The elephant in the room."

What does this cult want with the scrolls in the Villa de Notte?  Some times you have to clear the clutter in order to see the floor.  There are a lot of smoke and mirrors I think in these 112 pages.  But then how could we solve the entire mystery, with only one fourth of the pages of clues?  I'll reserve the right to my suspicions till later.

Ciao for now.................

Carol, can I ask if any of my list of clues and connections make any sense at all?

[Deems]

Wow, bellamarie, that's a lot of thinking to take in!!

I agree with you on some things--like I don't trust John L at all.  Anyone with violet eyes (except Liz Taylor) is suspicious to me.  He's up to something.  Originally, he didn't want to fund the trip--and then he did.  What's up with that?  If anyone is a member of the Tetraktys--which I some day might learn how to spell--he's my candidate.  Those missing FIVE years are mighty suspicious.  Just what was he doing during that time?   Hmmmmm?

Soon we will be into the next part--perhaps more will be made clear. 

I'm really eager to see why Sophie is such a mess.  And I don't trust her, or her memories, at this point.  There's just too much missing.  Gaps that need filling.

Ginny, you ask who is our favorite character.  I don't have one at this point.  Not a major one.  I liked Odette but she didn't last long.

[winsummm]

so our author is heavily into characterization here. We can nterpret this kind of thing from our own experiences.

I have written a few short stories and can appreciate how you can get so involved in them that they seem to be real. In fact if I'm driving at the time I'm a real road hazard. It can become more immediate than the trauma that Sophie experiences along the way. Especially if she identifies  so strongly with her heroine, i.e. Iusta.

there are two stories with two heroines. Sophie is needy and gets rescued by the men, whereas Iusta is more self sufficent even while a slave and doesn't need rescuing.  The author has her weak side in sophie and her strong side in ijusta, which surprises me. I would have though it would be the other way around..

I should leave this alone for a while. I'm not getting anything else done i.e. the utilities bill, post office for samps and mailing package, food, chiropractor crunch. . .reading current goodman novel as well as checking back into this one for details, and just other stuff.  This discussion is VERY interesting.

claire

[ginny]

Claire what an interesting thought (in a fabulous post if you don't mind my saying so)  The author has her weak side in sophie and her strong side in ijusta, which surprises me. I would have though it would be the other way around..

Why do you see Sophie as weak?
-------

Bellamarie, I have never seen anything anywhere like your post outlining the parallels. I think we need to preserve it somehow, I think somebody reading the book with their book group would find it very helpful, I did.

On this:
Ginny...the connection I see Sophie has with Iusta is "feminism and freedom."

How is Sophie free? Free from what?  Do you all see her as "free?" How is she  free? She's sure carrying around a lot of baggage?


------

Pedln, how could I have missed the 5 years off by John Lyros? I feel as if I'm the one in the dream state! I'll be darned! Good for you, when you start thinking about it,  it's like the Twilight Zone, which I LOVE.  I don't want everything laid out for me flat on a plate, I like to speculate and this IS a mystery!

And GIANT, Texas,  Big D.  I still am not sure why a "Texan" would be different from anybody else.

-------------

Do you all see Sophie as weak or strong? Why?

I liked this Pedln: Did Elgin put the cart before the horse?  Did he tell John L. that Dr. Chase, an authority on the lost document of G. Petronius, would now be part of the project?  And now he has to persuade Sophie? Probably hogwash, but I just don’t trust Elgin.  I think Sophie’s reasons for not going originally, are legitimate.

Another question, another mystery, fun!!!


---------

Deems, you are such a hoot:  I am so enjoying your provocative Devil's Advocate posts. If anyone is a member of the Tetraktys--which I some day might learn how to spell--he's my candidate.   hahaha

It's amazing what you get on google when you misspell that thing, especially leaving out the last t.  hahahaha

So Deems does not trust Sophie, or her memories at this point.

Do you all trust Sophie and/ or her accounts of what has happened?

I agree with Claire: This discussion is VERY interesting.

[bellamarie]

Ginny  ....."How is Sophie free? What makes her so? Do you all see her as "free?" How free?"

No, I do not feel Sophie is free.  She is like a caged bird with all the allusions, delusions, past and present issues to deal with.  I see  her wanting to know Iusta was freed, so she can believe she will find her freedom as well.

Sophie has the strenght to travel to Italy all by herself, yet I feel she is weak when it comes to dealing with her personal issues.

I am still seeing Sophie half human, half mythical,  like my post earlier about the struggle of half human, half god and struggling with the human and the gods.

Although Sophie is the main character/narrator, I am not drawn to her.  I don't like a lot of her qualities.  I am a woman who sees a problem and tackles it straight away and finds a solution or a way to accept it in my life.  She who hesitates, is lost....

Do NOT ask me why, because I am still trying to figure it out myself, I am drawn to Elgin.  Even though he is a Romeo, he has qualities I like.  He seems to really care about Sophie.

[PatH]

Ginny: "This discussion is very interesting."

This discussion is also very copious, so I can hardly think what to say before it has swept miles past me.  I'll try to put in a few crumbs.

We've mentioned Agnes as being an ugly name for a beautiful woman, but let's not forget the importance of Sophie's name, Sophia.  Sophia is wisdom, or the Goddess of wisdom, and Pythagoras coined the term philosophy, or love of wisdom.  Not a coincidence.

[Deems]

bellamarie says,
"No, I do not feel Sophie is free.  She is like a caged bird with all the allusions, delusions, past and present issues to deal with.  I see  her wanting to know Iusta was freed, so she can believe she will find her freedom as well."


I agree with bellamarie--I don't see Sophie as free at all.  I also don't like her much.  She's too scattered, here, there, everywhere, acting sometimes like a scholar but more often like a lost child.  Of course, I've known a scholar or two who was like that--completely competent, even brilliant in his/her area of expertise, but sadly lacking as a "well-rounded, adult human being."

[bellamarie]

PatH......Sophia is wisdom, or the Goddess of wisdom, and Pythagoras coined the term philosophy, or love of wisdom.  Not a coincidence.

WOW!  Thank you for your crumbs, that can not be a coincidence at all.  What was that Ely said about coincidences???  Something about if you are looking you will always find it. 

So what wisdom does Sophie hold?  Or rather is she going to find in them scrolls? 

Drat I wish I was not so damned disciplined, so I could read the next pages.   

Ciao for now............

[PatH]

Deems doesn't trust Sophie as a witness, and neither do I.  But, as someone who has suffered from breathing problems (not, fortunately, from being shot) and whose worst fear is being unable to breathe, I have to say that, in the description of the stay in Naples and the visit to Herculaneum, as Sophie is struggling with weakness and oxygen deprivation and the story is deliberately dreamlike, Goodman gets the tone exactly right.  That's what it's like.

[Deems]

PatH--Interesting.  How do you account for Sophie's incredible clarity and ability to remember the teensiest details like the red and white checked dishcloth at Ely's parents' house?  

I just cannot make myself believe her.  She's holding back stuff, I think.  Not fair because she's the narrator.  Or maybe will be seen as fair later.  Don't have time right now to offer proof, but her contribution to the narrative has all sorts of holes in it.  Example:  All of a sudden, Ely leaves.  Why?  Other than his involvement with T word I cannot spell, why?  She offers no explanation.  We are left to believe that he has no reason--other than the cult.  Tetra something or other.

[bellamarie]

Okay, I do  have to explain some of the reasons I like Elgin, although I know many of you don't trust him.

He mentored Sophie and was honest with her when he critiqued her thesis.  He was fair to give her an A+, yet told her she had overidentified and needed to rewrite it objectionably.  He asked her first to go on the trip because he knew she was knowledgable in the field of the Papyrus project.  He showed her respect even after she stopped the relationship and turned him down to go on the trip.  He valued her opinion and support of Agnes.  He acknowledged her skepticism and called her a scholar, giving her not only a compliment, but respected her as a teacher.  He brought her the proof she needed in order to convince her to come on the trip.  And............the romantic in me did react to the fact he cared for her when she became ill in Italy.  pg. 112  

Elgin lifted me out of bed.  He lifted me up and carried me out of the room and out of the Hotel Convento.  When I woke up next I saw blue sky over me and smelled the sea.  Elgin was leaning over me.  "We're taking you to the island, he said. "We can take care of you better there."  "As long as you promise not to let me forget to breathe or sink to the bottom of the river." I say. This makes him laugh.  He leans down close to me and I see his eyes are the same blue as the sky.  He takes my  hand and squeezes it.  "I promise I'll remind you to breathe.  And  I won't let you sink.  I'm going to hold on to you the whole way."  And he does.  It's a long boat trip, but he holds my hand the whole way and every time I feel like I am falling he squeezes my hand and says, "Hold on."  So I do.

[bellamarie]

Interestingly, the final paragraph on pg 112 Sophie says,

When I  open my eyes I see an immense tower of rock above me climbing from the sea to the sky.  Swallows are looping through the air.  Houses so white they look like they've been carved out of sugar cling to the steep slopes.  The air is so sweet that no one could ever forget to breathe here.  We've come, I think, to the island of the sirens.

When I googled island of sirens I got:

The Sirens Island

The Sirens Island was also a myth. It was said that any sailors who were sailing by the Sirens Island would hear the song of the Sirens and they would immediately throw themselves into the sea only to drown. The Sirens would sing a song so attractive and radiant that no one could resist it. The Sirens were sea nymphs with bodies of birds and heads of beautiful women. The Sirens' song had caused many sailors to drown. The only time the Sirens had failed to capture anyone was when Odesues and his men went by the island. They put wax in their ears and tied Odesues to the mast. The Siren's Island has been told as a myth for many years.

HUH?  With her fear of drowning, how can she seem so serene approaching the island of sirens that would swoop her up if she did not have wax in her ears to protect her from drowning?  Once again the wax has a major importance, it saved the scrolls. 

She is one complicated "figure or figment of a woman."

[Deems]

I don't know why Sophie isn't worried about the Sirens.  Maybe because she's not a man???

Oh, by the way, I have nothing against Elgin Lawrence.  I think he's OK, at least as a professor and scholar.  It's John L, the rich computer guy with violet eyes that I think bears watching.  There's something kinky about him.