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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-17 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 18-24 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 25-31 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 4-12
1. "--what was important was not the destination ... but the almost mystical and transcendant act of crossing the border." What kind of borders other than physical will the author have to cross as he travels into other countries?
2. Why Herodotus as a companion? Do you think he will be a good one?
3. The author wonders how Herodotus' temptation to know the world was born? Do you have that temptation? Can you tell how it was born? Why do some people have it and others not?
4. He sees language as a wall preventing him from going further. Have you had that feeling?
5. Later, he sees the great Wall of China as a symbol. Of what? How many walls can you find in this book?
6. "Identity here (in India) is determined by the language spoken." How does speaking English affect our identity? Would we be the same people if we spoke a different language?
7. Here we experience life in two Communist countries (Poland and China). How are they alike? Different?
8. How do Chinese and Indian thought differ, according to Kapuscinski? What do you think: if you've read about Eastern thought, do you agree with him? Do you agree with his approach to learning?
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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The books we choose on Senior Learn seem to get more exciting each month - I am so looking forward to this discussion - current history, ancient history, adventure, travel, intrigue, friendships, on and on what more could we ask for during the cold winter after the holiday season. Thanks JoanP, the heading is wonderful and beautifully ties the work of Ryszard Kapuscinski to Herodotus and his Histories...
This is one of the books that we will be glued to each page so bring your coffee or tea or wine with you and settle in - this is armchair travel at its finest... I sure hope many of you will be joining us...
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Like Barbara, I couldn't put this book down. It started me thinking about so many things: the nature of history, why we travel, what we leave behind us, what freedom means. And to talk about them with my good friends here is astounding!
So join us for another exciting adventure. I'll bring the wine and grapes from Greece, if someone else brings the kielbasa from Poland!
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A warm welcome to all! After the first chapter, it is clear we are in for a very different and thought-provoking experience! A young, novice reporter with very little schooling and no travel experience outside of his own town in Poland, no other language but his own - is sent to India of all places, with nothing but a copy of Herodotus' histories (written in the 5th century - BC!) as his guide. It should be noted, Herodotus himself was a cub reporter when he wrote his histories too.
Wish I could remember who recommended this book to our group! Whoever you are, thank you!
Still undecided? Read the first chapter and see if you can put it down! Can't wait to get started on January 4!
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I will be traveling with you.
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Hooray!
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Yes, have the book
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Frybabe, Kidsal, terrific! This is such an unusual book - I'm hooked after the first chapter. Really didn't expect to be. It will be quite an adventure to start the new year. Happy to hear you are in!
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Yea, verily. I have not only "Travels with Herodotus", I also have my book on classic historians which includes a hefty section on Herodotus and his writings. This should be a
very interesting trip.
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I have such a book, too. But we shouldn't need it. Our author has picked out gems for us to read.
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Yes, and if anyone has read the Upanishads please HELP - I have a copy that is supposed to explain but oh oh oh the Indian/Hindu references are not in my experience bag and so a bit of help would be appreciated.
The book is not necessary at all for the read only that while in India he notes the father quoting each morning to his young son from this holy book and I thought what a great opportunity to explore a new line of thinking and devotion. .
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I'm sure I have a few things about the Upanisads somewhere in the house. I remember enjoying their strange thought objectives years ago. They overwhelm one with a sense of exploration in the outermost reaches of human experience. Explanation isn't helpful. In fact, it could be harmful. It's more like a mental immersion in the deep end of the metaphysical or spiritual pool. Ultimate reality.
I've had Ryszard's TRAVELS WITH HERODOTUS on my table for a year waiting to be read. How wonderful to do it in your company. Where's the part on the Upanisads, Barb?
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So glad you will be with us bringing I hope some of your famous wit - He visits India early on in the book but I read this last Spring so that I would have to plow through to find it again - I just remember of the various experiences that was one that I wanted to follow up and learn about - the Histories being the other - for the next few days I am on a really tight schedule but I have decided to bring the books with me for pre-discussion while I am visiting my daughter back in NC - it is coldddd there and so I will be indoors most of the time wrapped in sweat shirts and sweaters - I will locate the pages about the Upanishads in the next couple of days
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Found The Upanishads on my bookshelf. Penguin Classic with Intro
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Here's a bit about Herodotus and his work that might be interesting to remember when
we read Mr. Kapuschinski's epic.
"Herodutus composed his history during a period which was witnessing a rapid upsurge of
man's confidence in his ability to render both himself and his environment intelligible. His
work was intended to be read aloud and thus it employs oral techniques, presents serial arrays of vivid episodes, and includes a great deal of material intended to entertain the audience." Michael Grant,
"Readings in the Classical Historians."
I would imagine our inexperienced author would greatly appreciate an "upsurge of...confidence".
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An ancient Greek point of viw, an ancient Indian point of view, and a modern Polish point of view . who says we Seniors aren't flexible thinkers!
I'll be digging to see what I have on the Upinshads. Can't wait!
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I needn't have asked. A quick glance at the CONTENTS was enough. Rabi Sings the Upanishads is the fourth chapter heading. I couldn't stop there. Just imagine! Heavenly bliss, Hindu style, is only a breath away. If done properly.
Every chapter sounds just as promising.
Is Ryszard Polish for Richard?
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Or maybe Richard is English for Ryszard? But yes, Richard is the English version
of Ryszard, and the name apparently means 'brave power'. Introduced to England
by the Normans, who gifted them with a few King Richards as you know.
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"the Normans, who gifted them with a few King Richards as you know. "
Until Richard III got a bad rep. There hasn't been a Richard since. (Do you think we'll refuse to elect Richards as presidents, since Nixon's debacle? I hope not: my husband was named Richard, and it's a good name).
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Nice article on Why We Travel - http://www.worldhum.com/features/travel-stories/why-we-travel-20081213/
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There have been researches that contradict that image of Richard III. I'm more inclined to
believe those than the Shakespeare version, which is free to take liberties with history for the
sake of dramatic impact...not to mention royal flattery.
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Barb, do you thing the Why We Travel link is useful over on the Hobbit discussion group? Some, if not all, of the reasons for traveling could so nicely fit into why it was necessary for Bilbo to go on this quest even if, at the time, he could not see it at the time. I think Gandalf did.
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I agree that "Why we travel" would be good in "the Hobbit".
Full of wonderful quotes: "We travel, initially, to lose ourselves; and we travel, next, to find ourselves"
And "the sovereign freedom of traveling comes from the fact that it whirls you around and turns you upside down, and stands everything you took for granted on its head."
We Sociologists have a saying: a fish can't see the water it's swimming in. It's only by getting out of the water and looking back can one see it.
My only quibble with the article is that all of his examples show how much better off we are than other peoples. That's true, but sometimes we find that other peoples have lessons to teach us, too (more important ones than styles of basket weaving).
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...but sometimes we find that other peoples have lessons to teach us, too (more important ones than styles of basket weaving).
I agree.
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I am on board! My book is on the way; by the 4th, I will have the first chapter read, and I will be in my armchair (or at my computer), in a quasi-scholarly frame of mind. ::)
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Quasi-scholarly is good!
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Love your glasses Lisa Mc so glad you will be joining the group - we are relaxed and post our impressions, questions, research, memories of similar experiences - we are more like a group sitting around a table with coffee or wine in hand chatting to each other - some post once a day and others several times during the day or night - JoanK is so right - quasi - with a small q - and an even smaller s for scholarly - we are just a curious bunch and books open the door for a pile of questions that we go about finding answers that adds to our understanding and enjoyment of a book - so if you like finding out more about what you are reading you will have a great time reading the adventures of Ryszard Kapuscinski.
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You are right, there, Barb. I still have not ordered my book yet. I am waiting on a gift ecard that is slow in coming. Meanwhile, I looked into some of Mr. Kapuscinski's books. There are three others of his I would like to read, Shah of Shahs, The Emperor: Downfall of an Autocrat (Haile Sellasie), and Shadow of the Sun(African experiences). Many of his works have not yet been translated into English.
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That's pronounced 'cwazy', isn't it. It sounds like just the right kind of scholarly tone in which to read this book. I'm going to keep that in mind. And we will all want you to move your armchair real close to your computer, Lisa Mc.
Let's have buttons made up to wear on our lapel. I AM A QUASI SCHOLAR.
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:D I don't think the 'q' in quasi is long, JONATHAN, but I like your pronunciation much
better. More fun.
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That's definitely us!
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Welcome aboard, Lisa! We're looking forward to getting to know you.
Had any of you ever heard of Ryszard Kapuscinski or any of his work before this book was selected? Would it help to know more about him? How about Herodotus? I knew he is considered the Father of History...I had to memorize that many years ago. I also remember hearing him referred to as "Father of Lies." Don't really know what that's about - do you?
A message to all quazy-scholars:
Because the chapters of Travels are not numbered, and since those reading on Kindles/Nooks or Ipads do not have page numbers, the reading schedule in the heading will be designated by the chapter titles. So, the first discussion week will cover the the chapters up to, but not including Chinese Thought.
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-10 - Crossing the Border up to Chinese Thought
Jan. 11-17- Chinese Thought up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 18-24- Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 25-31- Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
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What intriguing titles. I am still waiting on a gift cert for Amazon before purchasing the book. It is supposed to arrive today. This is one I want in a real book, not an ebook.
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Herodotus, Father of Lies, what's that all about? Granted that he does tell some whoppers, eg, the mystery of the king's dwindling treasure, the accusation may just be professional jealousy on the part of other historians. Total accuracy in any book of history would be miraculous. Didn't Henry Ford once say that all history is bunk? Who could even write an honest personal history? Who would care to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
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He's supposed to be the first real historian. I have a book of selections by him, but have only read a few passages.
We'll find out all about him in "travels".
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JOAN, my reference on ancient historians explains that Herodotus reported not
only what he saw, but also rumors he had heard. Some of them were pretty wild, but he did identify those things that were hearsay.
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Livy did the same thing, Babi. What I like about Livy is that he usually said whether his source was solid or heresay, passed on stories that couldn't be corroborated. Occasionally, he would include severa versions of the same event.
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You'll see, some of his stories are pretty wild! Of course they're history, so can't all be things he saw himself. I never thought he was making them up, just more credulous than we would be today. Remember, this was a time when Homer was taken as history, with all his gods and goddesses.
I always wondered at what point Herototus put in that caveat, that he didn't know it was true.
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True or false, Herodotus leaves the reader with much to wonder at and about. And what big shoes for anyone following in his footsteps. This should be fun.
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Book is on order. Should have it Thurs or Fri.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-17 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 18-24 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 25-31 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 4-12
1. "--what was important was not the destination ... but the almost mystical and transcendant act of crossing the border." What kind of borders other than physical will the author have to cross as he travels into other countries?
2. Why Herodotus as a companion? Do you think he will be a good one?
3. The author wonders how Herodotus' temptation to know the world was born? Do you have that temptation? Can you tell how it was born? Why do some people have it and others not?
4. He sees language as a wall preventing him from going further. Have you had that feeling?
5. Later, he sees the great Wall of China as a symbol. Of what? How many walls can you find in this book?
6. "Identity here (in India) is determined by the language spoken." How does speaking English affect our identity? Would we be the same people if we spoke a different language?
7. Here we experience life in two Communist countries (Poland and China). How are they alike? Different?
8. How do Chinese and Indian thought differ, according to Kapuscinski? What do you think: if you've read about Eastern thought, do you agree with him? Do you agree with his approach to learning?
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Good to hear, Fry. That will give you plenty of time to get started.
"I always wondered at what point Herototus put in that caveat, that he didn't know it was true." JoanK, I'm wondering why he was called "Father of Liars" - if he did in fact put in such a caveat - and the acknowledgement that what he was reporting might be rumor, as Babi points out. I wonder not only WHY, but WHO called him a liar! Not fair! Already I'm defending him! (though I've never read his Histories...and only started Kapuscinski's book)
"He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated."
I think this is important to remember. "Oral tradition predominated." Oral tradition must have been embellished with rumor as it was passed along, don't you think?
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That oral history would also explain why peoples of that time, who mostly stayed
close to home, believed there were actually weird creatures and peoples existing
in other places.
I couldn't find the exact 'caveat ' I was referring to earlier, which stated "There is
a rumor that....". Here, tho', is a line from a description of the actions of Queen
Artemisia at the battle of Salamis. "So Xerxes, they say, in answer to what they had told him, observed, 'My men have become women, and my women men.' That is what they say Xerxes said."
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Most of the stories he tells must have been told to him, and he must have had an internal compass telling him how much credence to put on them. A Mathematician (Polya) once called science "learning to live with various shades of maybe and perhaps." History must be the same, since you're almost never in position to witness directly what you're writing about.
I'll make a wild guess: if it was a Greek telling H what the Persian commander Xerxes said, H might well have thought "How could he know?" and put in those disclaimers. If one of Xerxes' generals said it, he might have reported it as fact.Or maybe he didn't believe it anyway, but thought it was too good a story not to report.
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True enough, JOAN. I understand Herodotus did include some anecdotes simply
because they were too good to pass up. It was this sort of entertaining side note
that made his histories so popular.
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Super, my book arrived yesterday, and I just finished up my latest SciFi -- so, I am ready to settle in with Travels.
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Nothing like curling up at home with a cup of hot cocoa and a nice travel book.
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From what little I've read so far, I'm not sure one could call it a 'nice travel book'.
Mr. Kapuscinski ran into all kinds of problems on his first trip.
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What kind of problems, Babi? All kinds, you say. That could turn out to be the best part of the book. That reminds me. Long ago I had a friend who just loved taking his family on a weekend drive in the country, and he always came back reassured that the best part of the daytrip was getting lost. Much of what they saw was unexpected and unlooked for.
Of course travelling with Herodatus will take us over a good part of the known world of 2500 years ago, far beyond our own backyards. That sounds like unlimited adventure. Are we taking risks by setting out? Should we consult a fortune teller. I'm finally getting around to reading Herodotus, and I'm struck immediately by the habit of the ancients to consult an oracle before every endeavour. It must have been a huge industry. And very rewarding for the best of them. The one at Delphi, for example. I wonder if my friend could have benefited from her advice.
Sara Wheeler, quoted above in the heading, has written several travel books herself. I haven't read them, but I do have her biography of Apsley Cherry-Garrard, the author of THE WORST JOURNEY IN THE WORLD. Just typing out that title makes me shiver. That was tempting fate.
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"he always came back reassured that the best part of the daytrip was getting lost."
My husband and I would do the same thing on Sunday afternoon in the country lanes near our house. We would deliberately try to get lost. It got harder and harder, as we got to know the roads better and better.
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Well, I don't want to jump the gun on details of the book, JONATHAN. I will say
that from what I've read so far, we'll be traveling with R.K. rather than 2500
years ago.
I am currently most annoyed to find that for some reason my computer will not
bring up the word pad list, where I've started my 'Travels' notes. The way this
program is set up, I have to make my notes on the word pad, which then stores them in a permanent 'document'. I cannot make additions or changes directly to the document.
Side road explorations can be great (or a pain) depending on what you find.
There is an area of Texas where the side roads will take you past charming, old
Dutch houses and barns and fields. It's like a quick trip into another country.
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JoanK, Jonathan - those intentional get-lost trips sound like such fun. Would never happen here with this husband...who can't stand not to know exactly where he is or where he is going at all times. Miss the spontaneity of such travel!
Babi...there has got to be a way for you to edit/add to your saved documents on word pad. Maybe Marcie has an idea?
I came in this morning to point your attention to the discussion schedule in the heading. We saw that the logical break for the first section occurs at the END of the chapter with the title CHINESE Thought...so we decided to include it in the first week's discussion.
Out of curiosity, how are you pronouncing the author's last name? We checked it out and found -
"Mr. Kapuscinski (pronounced ka-poos-CHIN-ski)"
So if you are looking for a shortcut when posting his name, we suggest you use Kapus, since the "S" is pronounced before the CHIN. The public libraries also refer to this call number KAPUS.
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Hmm how about a nick name like Puss and Boots
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;D
Hope Kapus doesn't go Kaput!
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Joank, you've got to resist these urges! ;) Kapus would make a welcome shortcut, JOANP. As to my problem, I'm
wondering if Val's recent 'clean-up' of the software removed the programs from the WordPad? Meanwhile, it looks as
thought I'm going to have a book full of purple tabs, to mark the places that have inspired some comment. Fortunately,
it's mine as I found it simpler to order it (cheaply) on-line.
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Resist urges? Me?
Yeah, there's a lot to think about, isn't there. That's why I like this book so much.
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Tomorrow we start the discussion. I'm excited to see what you all think of this unusual book.
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Finished the first section this afternoon. I am ready.
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Great.
Don't forget we added a chapter to the first section (Chinese Thought). Even if you haven't finished it, come on in and give us your thoughts.
The questions will be in the heading, but here they are a little early (at least, it's early here on the West Coast).
1. "--what was important was not the destination ... but the almost mystical and transcendant act of crossing the border." What kind of borders other than physical will the author have to cross as he travels into other countries?
2. Why Herodotus as a companion? Do you think he will be a good one?
3. The author wonders how Herodotus' temptation to know the world was born? Do you have that temptation? Can you tell how it was born? Why do some people have it and others not?
4. He sees language as a wall preventing him from going further. Have you had that feeling?
5. Later, he sees the great Wall of China as a symbol. Of what? How many walls can you find in this book?
6. "Identity here (in India) is determined by the language spoken." How does speaking English affect our identity? Would we be the same people if we spoke a different language?
7. Here we experience life in two Communist countries (Poland and China). How are they alike? Different?
8. How do Chinese and Indian thought differ, according to Kapuscinski? What do you think: if you've read about Eastern thought, do you agree with him? Do you agree with his approach to learning?
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We'll be up at the crack of dawn to cross the Virginia/North Carolina border to finally celebrate Christmas with four of the grandchildren. I hope some of the spirit of the season will return. It just feels as if it's over.
I'm really looking forward to this discussion, though we 'll be away for the first few days. I'm hoping to find some time to come in and read your posts, but that's always iffy down there.
The thing that really struck me in the opening chapters was the point made on several occasions about "the importance of oral tradition." Following the war, little Kapuscinski depended almost entirely on oral transmission in the absence of textbooks.
He goes out of his way to make this point...and yet when he finally gets to cross the border into India, he is frustrated by the fact that he cannot comprehend the language. So the whole idea of oral tradition is mute, isn't it? What would Herodotus have done in Kapus' place? I'm thinking he would not have visited a country whose language he didn't understand, expecting to interview the natives!
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JoanP just celebrate Kings day with them - big deal here - the 6th when the 3 Kings come bearing gifts - here we are close to Louisiana and it has always been a big deal tradition a special coffee cake 'gâteau des Rois' with a silver token baked into the coffee cake that most often has purple sprinkles on top - whoever gets the token has good luck for the year and is declared king for the night - some have the king be the one to supply the cake for the following year.
Here is more information
http://noladefender.com/content/la-galette-des-rois-des-la-boulangerie-0
(http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new/ehow/images/a04/rd/m4/history-galette-des-roisking-cake-800x800.jpg)
In case the bakery in the area do not have shelves high with King's Cakes here is a recipe
http://www.americancommunityinfrance.com/blog/food/galette-des-rois-american-stylenew-orleans-kings-cake/
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Looking forward to tomorrow - it is cold here with a possibility of snow - been covering doors that are all shutter type to hold the heat into a few rooms - right now cozy and warm -
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Kapuscinski suffered from culture shock as well as language barriers. I can almost see him shrinking into himself, can almost feel the panic he felt at his inability to instantly understand the various customs and languages he encountered. (I suspect that he put too much pressure on himself on learning the language. That can backfire. For instance, if I get panicky at not picking up something in Latin right away, I end up slowing myself down. It's kind of a mental block.)
I wish he had given us a little more information in his narrative especially how long he actually stayed in India and China. He doesn't mention actually writing dispatches back to his newspaper while there. Did he?
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Well, we must note that the author did not choose India; he was expecting to go
somewhere else. But his editor said India, and hey, it was a BORDER! Perhaps he was hoping that the people making the news would speak Polish or Russian.
I was pleased to have a look at what Europe...at least, Poland....was like in the era at the end of Stalin's rule. I knew it was oppressive, but that really was just a word. The fear, the caution...everyone keeping a low profile in order not to be noticed.
Then, our authors education, and introduction to ancient Greece and Herodotus' histories. The mad rulers and the atrocities they committed. I can see why those stories would catch the attention of the young students of that time.
He is working as a reporter, traveling all over Poland, but never beyond it's borders. You have to wonder why he was chosen when it was decided to send a reporter to India. He spoke no language but Polish; how was he to manage? But maybe none of them spoke a foreign language, unless they learned it from someone in the family.
The exception would have been Russian. From Britannica on-line, Russia; the Stalin Era:
"The advent of the Cold War in the 1940s led to Stalin tightening his grip on his sphere of influence in eastern and southeastern Europe. Russian was imposed as the main foreign language..."
Not only language. He is sent off to India with wool clothing, in a style that would have made him stand out like a circus clown. I am getting the impression that his employers are also terribly naive about the world in general. Another result of the Stalin policies, I suppose.
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I wonder how good a reporter Kapuscinski was? He makes himself sound pretty inexperienced, but I suspect he's being modest about his writing ability--he probably was already showing his considerable literary talent.
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Really an interesting story Didn't you wonder what you would have done, never having been out of your home area, to be plunked down in such a strange place as India, not knowing the language or anything about the people or its culture? And not having any knowledgeable person meeting you and showing you what to do, where to go? Scary. He did seem to have enough money with him, tho.'
I thought it was interesting (and sad) about all the people just milling around, sleeping on the roads, some on the bare pavement, no shelter from the rain, after the war between Hinduism and Islam. I want to read more about when Pakistan split off from India.
And yes, the atmosphere of Poland was so strange as well, with everyone afraid to say anything or stick out while Stalin was yet alive, and then things easing up just slightly after Stalin's death.
Marj
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Well, The library just informed me that my reserved book is in, so I guess I will be joining you folks for the discussion.
Hope you all don't get too far ahead of me before I get to it. I'm reading a biography of one of my favorite authors, Kurt Vonnegut, and I'd like to finish it before I undertake TWH.
Rich
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Hi Rich, welcome to the discussion. I think you will find Travels with Herodotus a fairly easy read, and interesting.
Kurt Vonnegut is not an author I ever was interested in reading for some reason. If I had to tackle one of them, I think is would be Cat's Cradle.
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Thanks for the welcome, Frybaby.
So I have the book, and I'll just have to put Vonnegut aside for a while. Curious about what the book itself is about, I already read a few pages.
The author first heard about Herodotus when he (Kapuscinski) was a student in communist Poland. Herodotus' Histories were not available there until 1955! Amazing!
I find interesting the early excerpt from Herodotus about the messenger who was sent to learn how to effect absolute rule over a people. His teacher just kept walking through a cornfield breaking off the tallest ears of corn. The messenger didn't understand the message but he passed it on, anyway, to his leader. The would-be dictator understood the message clearly. "Kill the outstanding citizens." I find it interesting that the Herodotus "parable" is told to us from a Polish author who experienced WWII. That is exactly what the Nazis and Soviets did in Poland immediately after their mutual occupations of the country at the outset of the war.
I'm still not too familiar with this new posting system, and I think it's telling me that my page is full. So.......Signing off.
Rich
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What interesting questions and what a different travel book. I've read 3 chapters and most decidedlly I am in awe of Kapus who had the courage to leave Poland during the upheaval in the Soviet Union at that time. Stalin had just died, he had lived under that brutal regime which did not, obviously, encourage initiative. However, the book says "the atmosphere became more relaxed, people breathed more freely" for awhile.
As a reporter, Kapus had to travel near borders of his country - mysterious borders, the emptiness of the borders intrigued him in his travels. His thoughts must have been his alone, he doesn't seem to have tried to engage in conversation with anyone near the border.
And Kapus was sent to India by his newspaper - what, about 1955? And we are getting near a discussion some of us have had before - GHANDI'S AUTOBIOGRAPHY - see
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Gandhi.htm
A land of movement, vibration and energy.
Good question - why do some of us have the temptation to travel and others are quite content to stay put? My husband was one who was quite content to go fishing, talk to the guys awhile; I forced him to cross the border of Ohio occasionally and, grumbling, he did so. hahahaa
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RICH: WELCOME WELCOME!
I hadn't realized til you said it how Kapus used the story herotodus told to add to the background of communist Poland. We'll have to look for other examples of that.
Kapus really gets across the atmosphere in Communist Poland, doesn't he. And the school: with all those ignorant farm children being exposed to school and the wide world for the first time. I feel with him. This is when his "temptation" to know the world is born. When was yours?
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By the way, I think we should share a 'gâteau des Rois' on the sixth!
ELLA:you were postin when I was. I hope your husband enjoyed the wilds of Indiana! :D
What about the rest of you?
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Reading Kapus' narrative of his visit to India, written from the perspective and culture shock of someone who had no idea where India was, let alone what it was about, I'm reminded of a book written years ago by V.S. Naipaul. Naipaul, of Indian descent, but raised in Trinidad, wrote of his travel to the land of his ancestors in his book "An Area of Darkness."
Naipaul, a Nobel Prize winner, drew a grim picture of the country, being shocked by the filth, the noise, the pressing mobs of beggars, and the persistent stench of excrement in the air. After reading it, and finding Naipaul's style quite interesting , I loaned my copy to a friend (whose wife I knew to be Indian). He brought it back to me a couple of days later. It seems his wife started reading it before he did, and was outraged. She told him to get that book out of the house and take it back to wherever he got it.
On my list of places I would really like to visit (if such a list existed), India would not make the top ten.
Rich
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Oh, I would go to India, RICH. Such a contrast there, think of the Taj Mahal, even though I understand the grimness, the poverty, that still exists. Did any of you see the movie Slumdog Millionnaire that was shown some years ago.
But we have a connection with the country, two of my doctors are from India, as are many, and we have outsourced many jobs overseas - technology, particularly, I think. The world is changing slowly and I think the Internet is somewhat responsible. One can read a newspaper from India on the Internet, as I am sure the people of India read our own. And what would they think of us, the violence in Newtown, CT, for example.
I can remember visiting NYC some years ago and seeing the homeless in doorways, the beggars on the streets. I remember, particularly, in my own city, how sad it was to see veterans of WWII begging on our streets.
Your comment, RICH, about killing the leaders was a good one, get the resistance out of the way as you take over a country, then you can rule through fear.
HEY, JOAN, I'll come to your house on the 6th! I hope you have all the shopping done.
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I'll be ready!
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Interesting our views of India - I too thought of it as a place full of street people so stuck they turned to religion as their only outlet and source of hope but I was really taken with his explaining the scene of the father praying every morning with his son and a blog I follow regularly written by a gal in Norway who does a lot of traveling changed my Johnny One Note view -
She was visiting India only this past November staying at the home of casual friends who I think she met through her blog - Britt Arnhild's blog is mostly photos and she had three days of photos showing the places they visited and the women in the house where she was staying preparing some food - I was really surprised how clean and lovely not only the home but this tailor who has cloth in just about every shade and color who made her a typical Indian ensemble as well as the other places she photographed - this was NOT the impression I had of India - http://brittarnhildshouseinthewoods.typepad.com/brittarnhilds_house_in_th/india/ - I'm thinking these movies show the slums to tell their story - every city I have visited including the one I live in has a dirty crime ridden slum.
I was really taken at how (I have decided to call him Puss and Boots - a sound of part of his name plus he sure must have wore out some boots on his travels or maybe Puss for short) anyhow I was impressed with how 'Puss and Boots' saw the good in India even through his frustration of not being able to communicate.
My first trip to Europe made me feel just as frustrated - I had a bit of High School French and bits of childhood German that I realized I understood more than I could speak - but I felt like there was a wall between me and the people - that all the sights in the world were only a bit of seeing and enjoying visiting another nation much less getting a sense of how they think and how they put together their thoughts.
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Ella, I really had to giggle about your struggle to get your husband to travel beyond the border of Ohio!
My husband was a bore to travel with. His hobby was flying a private airplane he and his buddies owned, so all he wanted to do was to go from airport to airport to gab with other pilots. After the divorce... I started seeing the world with friends from my work.
I had no desire to go to India, but was sorry I never made it to China. I've also never had any desire to go to Australia because of the dangerous insects I've read about there.
Marj
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That's quite a colorful cake, Barb. Ours will be decorated by the kids - who knows, it might be even more so! :D
How many times have I forgotten to add the coin to the batter! I no longer panic...just insert it into the bottom of the cake when it cools... We're planning on making it tomorrow morning. Forgot to bring the crown for the king - or queen - we can make that too. Ella, JoanK, will be expecting you! Did I mention there is a prize for the lucky king/queen? Another perk, you are excused from dish washing duty...
This morning, a swim meet, this afternoon two back-to-back soccer games - outside! Tonight we're all going to a nearby Davidson College basketball game. Busy day!
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I've so enjoyed reading your posts yesterday -and seeing that you are enjoying this book. It is certainly triggering many reactions and memories. My son and his wife are planning a trip to Italy in the spring. Neither seems interested, or are too busy to learn the language - under the impression that everyone will understand English. I'm picturing them after an all-night flight, landing in Rome...trying to find their way to the money machines, their hotel, etc. And then renting a car for a romantic ride through the countryside outside of Florence. I couldn't do it. I'd be cramming Italian, knowing that Bruce would be depending on me to get us around.
Frybabe, I agree, in India Kapus had to face the language barrier - as well as culture shock. Back in the 60's, my sister was on a return trip through India from a two year peace corps stint in the Phillipines. Thought herself a seasoned traveler - until India. The sea of white, the people in the roads! She was on this open bus when the driver struck a woman and was driving off leaving her in the road. Apparently this was a common occurance. Kay started screaming for him to stop. Amazingly he did, let the passengers, led by my sister, pull the woman into the bus. He drove off, the woman died on the bus, the driver wouldn't stop for many miles until he reached the next town. True story.
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Two questions -
Is Kapus working for a student-run newspaper? Were you wondering who was paying his expenses to India. It seems his editor noticed him as one of those who had the desire to travel - although he told her he just wanted to cross, look around and come right back. Would that have been enough for him do you think? Why did she think he'd be interested in Herodotus?
He does a lot of reading when in India. Tries to learn the language, tries to learn English too. So what is his language? Russian is the official language in Warsaw. Do you assume he knows Polish and Russian? In what language do you see him reading his copy of Herodotus' Histories?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-17 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 18-24 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 25-31 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 4-12
1. "--what was important was not the destination ... but the almost mystical and transcendant act of crossing the border." What kind of borders other than physical will the author have to cross as he travels into other countries?
2. Why Herodotus as a companion? Do you think he will be a good one?
3. The author wonders how Herodotus' temptation to know the world was born? Do you have that temptation? Can you tell how it was born? Why do some people have it and others not?
4. He sees language as a wall preventing him from going further. Have you had that feeling?
5. Later, he sees the great Wall of China as a symbol. Of what? How many walls can you find in this book?
6. "Identity here (in India) is determined by the language spoken." How does speaking English affect our identity? Would we be the same people if we spoke a different language?
7. Here we experience life in two Communist countries (Poland and China). How are they alike? Different?
8. How do Chinese and Indian thought differ, according to Kapuscinski? What do you think: if you've read about Eastern thought, do you agree with him? Do you agree with his approach to learning?
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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I am enjoying Kapuscinscki's descriptive language. So, yes, I think his talent could likely be seen in his early writings. His first 'bird's-eye view' from his first time on a plane reminds me of my own 'first'...after I got over the certainty that the plane was going to crash simply because I was on it. Never had that problem again, I'm happy to say. Spent much of the trip just gazing out the window.
"Kapus" early communist indoctrination still clings. He is indignant at the idea of using the services of porters and rickshaw men. That would make him an exploiter! A bloodsucker! I wonder how long it took him to realize that these people desperately needed the few coins that could feed them and their family for the day.
The fascinating things I am learning about India from this period. Everyone used the trains, and even the wealthy and the foreigners traveled with their own bedding. There were no seats. Everyone arranged their own little area in which to sleep, eat, etc. for the length of the trip. Kapus, of course, had made no such arrangements. I can't help wondering what arrangements were made for a, er, washroom?
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JoanP, I think he had a job in a real newspaper (As real as a newspaper can be in a Communist country.) He said that he finished his studies and got employment with a newspaper "The Banner of Youth."
His editor certainly liked him, giving him the plum India assignment, while, at the same meeting, presenting him with his own copy of Herodotus. He had a guardian angel somewhere at the newspaper; someone who liked him...That trip, through Rome, to India cost a great deal of money. The trip to China via Amsterdam and Tokyo also had to be a great financial burden to a small newspaper in post-war Poland. This was in a time (which he stated in his own words) that very few people traveled.
He was told by the paper's secretary (I'm a little confused by the use of the word "secretary." Secretary sometimes has a different meaning in European countries, like the head of the UN is Secretary-General.) that he was going to China. The secretary was "nervous and agitated." Why nervous and agitated?
Rich
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"but I felt like there was a wall between me and the people."
I felt that when I lived in Israel. I worked very hard to learn the language, but still felt it as a barrier. I would pass one level: I could ask for things in shops and exchange pleasantries. then there would be another -- having a friendship across language barriers. then another: limits on what you could understand of your frend. I suspect there is no end to the "walls".
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Kapus probably knew Polish and Russian. Now we know he speaks English. It is common for people in other parts of the world to be fluent in more than one language (ask our Bubble sometime how many languages she speaks!) It is us Yanks who grow up knowing only one language.
Did anyone wonder how far his approach of trying to understand the people by reading books rather than by talking to people would take him?
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Rich, is that YOU? After all these years? How wonderful to see you again!!
I'm not in this discussion but I look forward to reading your comments, they are bound to be fantastic!
Welcome back!
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Hi Ginny,
Good to see you, too. Yes, it's been a long time, but I needed time to recover after we finished that ponderous Rembrandt book.
Got to go now, the Minnesota/Green Bay playoff game is about to begin, and I've got a reserved seat right in my living room.
Thanks for the warm welcome.
Rich
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Walls. It's amazing to me how Kapus travels from city to city in India (I haven't got to the China chapters yet) without worry about money. How does he know how much things cost, where and what does he eat, never gets sick. Does he correspond to his newspaper back home - by telegram, telephone? Letter? Does he have a family back home?
We are not to know these small details in Kapus' travels, but it would make the book more real to me. Money was a wall for me, I would think I had it straight but for lack of time I finallly would just extend my hand with coins or paper in it and hope I was dealing with honest people. I think I was very lucky.
"Planes often carrying but a few passengers. ....... Passengers .... stretched out across several seats."
What language was the book THE HISTORIES in? Kapus mentions that the book was translated by a Seweryn Hammer, but we are not told into what language. Obviously a language that Kapus could read.
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JOANP, that's a terrible sight your sister witnessed on her trip through India. And the victim died on the bus after being struck, horrible.
What a different story Kapus tells of his bus inching its way through crowds of people laying on the roads moving aside, in "ardent compliance, in their submissive humility."
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From an article in the London Book Review by Neal Ascherson - he reviews a book that tells us how he afforded travel and how he got his money - or at least what this journalist knew about how he got his money.
I first heard of him from Western journalists covering Africa. They liked him. He was exotic – from behind the Curtain – but gutsy and funny. Working for PAP, the Polish news agency, he was permanently broke, but the hack mob adopted him, pushing him on board their chartered planes or blagging him past border officials startled by a Polish passport. A Commie? A few Americans watched their tongues when he was around. The rest, if they thought about it, imagined ‘Richard’ probably had to sign some nasty piece of paper in order to get out of Poland: so bloody what?
After reading Domosławski’s compelling, exhaustive and often upsetting book, their easy tolerance – like mine – begins to look different. In the first place, it was patronising. Were all Poles so cynically light-hearted? Looking back, more than twenty years after the system fell apart, it seems more likely that my friends’ contacts with the ‘Services’ were often humiliating and occasionally terrifying, in ways they preferred not to admit. Second, it turns out that ‘paying a price’ was not the case with Kapuściński. True, if he had not agreed to do intelligence work on the side, he would not have been allowed to travel abroad; there would be no The Emperor, no Shah of Shahs or The Soccer War. But in fact he was a willing collaborator. His intelligence file, opened after his death in 2007, showed that he contributed almost nothing of value, constantly pleading that he was too busy reporting to spy. But in Latin America, for example, he provided several profiles and details of figures thought to be working for the CIA. He did this because at that point in his life – the late 1960s – he was still a damaged but loyal member of the Communist Party. He was aware that Polish Communism was turning into a corrupt shambles, but he still believed – passionately, and romantically – that there was a world-struggle going on between imperialism and the working people of the poor southern continents. There was no middle ground. To miss a chance to strike against the oppressors was to take their side.
His file does not apparently show that he informed on friends or colleagues. There’s one case in which he passed on a conversation with a Polish exile, a woman who had just been forced out of the country by the anti-semitic purges of 1968. Even this is ambiguous: she may have meant him to pass on her scathing comments about several Party figures, and he may even have agreed with her. But Domosławski is right to feel that Kapuściński was violating the moral and professional border of journalism. It’s precisely because journalism and espionage have a superficial resemblance that they don’t mix. Telling an ambassador what you have seen or heard can be harmless: writing target profiles for an intelligence service is another thing altogether, and it poisons a journalist’s soul.
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Hi Everybody. Hope you all had an enjoyable, festive season. Any of that gateau du roi left? Did I get that right? And who got the coin?
Who is this Kapuscinski? I had never heard of him until I happened to see his book TRAVELS WITH HERODOTUS, and thought it might get me to me to read the Herodotus I've had around forever. Now I'm reading the question in your posts: Why doesn't he tell us something about himself. Perhaps he doesn't want to talk about himself, following Herodotus' example. But there may be much more to it than that. Wikipedia has an interesting summary of his career and his achievments, and his many prizes. Some felt he deserved a Nobel. And then there are reports of Kap's (as he was called by some) other services to the pary. You're right, Rich. The secretary served in that capacity for the Central Committee. A short quote from the Wiki link caught my imagination:
'n 1962 Kapuściński joined the Polish press agency, the PAP, and after honing his skills on domestic stories was appointed "its only foreign correspondent, and for the next ten years he was 'responsible' for fifty countries."[18][19] (Although a correspondent of an official state press agency, he never in his life asked a single question at any press conference that he attended.[17]) When he finally returned to Poland, he had lived through twenty-seven revolutions and coups, been jailed 40 times and survived four death sentences.'
But it seems that more than any routine news reporting responsibilities, Kap had lifelong literary ambitions and considered his style as magical journalism. Let's keep it in mind, and watch for the magic, the metaphor, and, since Kap was a dedicated communist, beware the doublespeak.
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Thanks, Barbara. It gets curiouser and curiouser. What's this storyteller up to? Let's follow him around. Let's cross a few borders with him.We all, he says, have walls around ourselves.
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V. S. Naipaul, writing about India in his book An Area Of Darkness, must have got it right for many. Kap tells us about the ritual that many Hindus made of watching the sun rise.
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Ella, your comment about Seweryn Hammer put me into search mode. I only looked briefly, so all I found was Wikipedia's article in Polish. I don't read Polish, but I did gather from it that, not unsurprisingly, he was a professor, he died in 1955, and that his Histories translation was first published in 1954.
Barb, thanks for the article quote. I am mildly surprised that he was a dedicated communist after reading his description of his time in China. He tried to be noncommittal about it, but I got the impression that he didn't like having Li constantly by his side and that he could not close the door to his room so that his "guide" could watch his every move. Could it be that he used his "obligation" to spy as a means to "cross the border", travel and write about it? How good of a reporter was he if he never asked questions? If he didn't pass on useful information the to Communist Party, than why did they keep asking him to spy?
So far, Kapuscinski appears to feel inadequate and insecure about his assignments, but he preservers and puts up a brave front. There was something else in first section I wanted to comment on, but the last few posts interested me enough that I forgot what it was. Sigh! Maybe I'll think of it later.
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Fry - from reading the recent posts, I'm beginning to sense the operative words here are that "Kapuscinski appears to feel inadequate and insecure"...
It's striking, isn't it, that he's writing a book which attempts to illuminate the personality of a man from his work - Herodotus from his Histories...and yet as Ella says, reveals so few details of his own life. Would you say Travels w. Herodotus is autobiographical non-fiction? If not, how would you describe it?
"He was exotic, gutsy and funny." Quite a revealing article, Barb.
In fact, he's secretive, while appearing so naive and open, he seems to fit the description of a spy, doesn't he?
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Jonathan, I lke your description of his style as "magical journalism." His work takes on that quality from the start, doesn't it?
- the stranger, the Italian whose wife takes him clothes shopping in Rome. How are they communicating? Do you see a language "wall" between them?
- and then, all those poor Indians, begging for his attention - he ignores them, and yet follows an unidentified man who beckons to him - who takes him to a strange hotel. how are they communicating?
I'm beginning to think the author is purposely omitting these details.
Jonathan, TODAY is Kings Day - we haven't even baked the cake yet. You are welcome to join us to cut it evening!
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BarbStAubrey, and Jonathan, your research has added a whole new dimension to the book. It gives us a possible way to understand his financial backing and amazing string of good luck during his travels.
I thought it was strange that when he found himself alone and confused in an Indian airport, a stranger suddenly appeared, found a hotel for him, drove him there, and disappeared before he could be compensated for his trouble. Later, when he found himself alone, late at night, in an empty Kabul airport being held up for lack of a visa, another stranger materialized, cleared the whole matter up for him in a breeze and took him home for the night.
Kapus certainly did have a guardian angel looking out for him. The KGB?
Rich
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JoanP, Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten about the stranger and his wife in Rome who took him shopping for clothes.
More guardian angels.
Rich
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Barb and Jonathan, you have indeed added a new dimension to the book. It explains some things, too, such as how he never came to grief over practical matters and why he ended up as the guest of a rajah. We can't expect him to be very straightforward about his practical arrangements or mission. But what the book seems to be is a description of his internal journey, a journey of ideas and perceptions, and he is probably being pretty truthful about that.
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Good question, RICH. Maybe the secretary was nervous and agitated because it was such a big step to take in a what was a very recent easing of travel restrictions.
No one was quite sure which direction the new government was going to take.
I would do the same, JOANK. Getting in some background would at least give me
a base of reference. And give me some idea of what to expect,...and what to wear!
And he did try to talk to people as he gained a small vocabulary.
BARB, I gather that article is referring to Neal Acherson, and not to Kapus. It
does state "Neal Ascherson - he reviews a book that tells us how he afforded travel
and how he got his money .."
I was aware that the people of India were stratified in a caste system and children pursued the same trade as their parents, though I assume there must have been exceptions. RK makes a point that had not really struck me before. "I had noticed already that a diferent person is assigned here to every type of activity and chore, and that this person vigilantly guards his role and his place - this society's equilibrium seems to depend upon it."
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The caste system leads into something RK says that feels very true to me:
India is all about infinity--an infinity of gods and myths, beliefs and languages, races and cultures; in everything, and everywhere one looks, there is this dizzying endlessness.
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WOW1 Simple me never thought to wonder about Kapus. So he is telling us what he wants us to know and no more.
he seems to clearly see what's wrong under communism, yet still be loyal to it. Well, it gave him, a poor country boy, an education and opportunities that he never would have had otherwise. Even in China, which he hates, he points out that the Chinese who look so regemented and sorry under Communism, would have starved under the earlier regime.
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I've been reading a series of detective stories about communist China. The author, who left china after Tenemin Square, Makes the point that the Chinese now have no moral code to guide them. They grew up with communist values in a country which has become capitalist. This leaves them nothing to hold onto except greed.
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They can always, and probably will, fall back on Confucius. I can already hear it: Confucius say.... Mao's hundred flowers look wilted, and the country seems to have left them behind, on its march to world hegemony.
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And our author has only scorn for that great Wall of China.
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The book under review was written by Neal about Puss - a biography of sorts.
Yes Pat, that is the viewpoint I felt reading the book - his internal journey, a journey of ideas and perceptions, and he is probably being pretty truthful about that.
This book, with lots of references to Herodotus, reminds me of other Greek thinking like some of the themes in Plato's Republic - turning cold politics into family warmth - the argument over the individual versus mass society - Puss seems to me to be taking what was current history and rather than be bound to the cave he is retelling it. Instead of using the Journalists conventional way of reporting events with maybe an editorial viewpoint, Puss is aligning the events to a storyline that is natural with smaller human examples rather than, the large codified events.
I have not read past the first chapter in The Histories to know if Herodotus is in Plato's camp of thinking or Socrates. So far Herodotus' shows both viewpoints of, 'its all the fault of the men' versus, 'its all the fault of the women' explaining the rational for war. I am not picking up that Puss has a disdain for women similar to Socrates. Who knows - with all his reading we do not know the other books he read or studied in University - he did not sound as if he never heard of Herodotus when he received the book so maybe, he also read the Republic or he was simply from that viewpoint of thinking.
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I was struck by that passage, too, PAT. I gather Kapus is speaking of his own troubles
in learning about India when he wrote this. Perhaps it would by more useful not try to pursue all this infinite information. Isn't what he really needs to know is what is making the news?
Were you surprised, JOANK, when Kapus unpacked his books in China, that he had one titled "What's Wrong With China". Considering what a tight rein they were keeping on him, I'm amazed that book hadn't been seized the first time he left the room. I trust the Chinese
correspondent to Poland would receive much better treatment.
I smiled to see these two items in the world news this morning. "Fight Against Chinese Journalism Censorship Escalates." and "Reports: China To End Forced Labor Camp System." It does seem the demands of capitalism are pulling down some of the restrictions of Communism. 8)
Still, I love the small personal contacts he includes. The guard who stayed with
him, built a fire, and loaned him his coat. The trembling old man who was returning
home after years in the gulags. These are heartwarming.
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True, he did not like the great wall. I have not seen it treated so negatively in travel literature, even by the cynical Paul Theroux.
I guess Kapus is also not a great fan of Robert Frost: "Good Fences make good neighbors."
Rich
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For the life of me I cannot find the exact quote - but there was a quote popular at one time something about be careful what you wall in and what you wall out - the closest I could find was “Sometimes you put walls up not to keep people out, but to see who cares enough to break them down.”
I am still caught with the image of a father and son starting each day with prayers from the Upanishads - I purchased a copy and could not make heads or tails out of the first pages - after reading some about Hindu I'm getting a glimpse of what this is all about.
One of the prayers, so simple and yet profound in the Chandogya Upanishad - Twelfth Khanda - Space, assuredly, is more than heat. In Space, verily, are both sun and moon, lightening, stars and fire, Through space one calls out; through Space one hears; through Space one answers. In Space one enjoys himself; in Space one does not enjoy himself. In Space one is born; into Space one is born. Reverence Space.
There are prayers to water, earth on and on - revering what is around us and basic to life and yet the Fourth Brahmana gives an Adam's rib type story for the explanation of woman created - He desired a second and he splits in two and she is like a half-fragment therefore this space is filled by a wife. And so he may be half but only a half-fragment - trying to come to terms with what we observe is the treatment and expectations of women as compared to all this beautiful reference suggesting reverence. But then we hear India and our mind goes there where as, this is not attitudes that Puss reported - wonder if it is an example of him re-arranging the cave.
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Barbara, you may be on to something with your researches supplying references to space and caves. Kapus also sees the contradictions in India, with plenty of empty spaces and millions huddled together in the greatest congestion. What a scene. It appears that even ten years after the partition of the Raj millions are still homeless and destitute.
Doesn't the author's astonishment become apparent as he contrasts India and China? Ancient peoples with a long history. Long endeavour to achieve an organized society. Interesting motivators. Gods in the case of India. Philosophy in China. So far we are being spared a Marxist explantion. It would seem that Kapus might have been an agent of The Party as well as a working journalist. One often heard during the Cold War that their journalists also served in other capacities. My guess is that the author of this book turned out to be a reluctant Cold Warrior, not happy with quick fixes.
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Not knowing much about China's history before WWII, I was interested in the Long March which brought Mao Tse-tung to power; accordinglly I skimmed a long article in Wikipedia. There is controversy over the facts as stated by Chairman Mao and an author or two, but what a march it must have been. A few examples:
"The Red Army had to cross mountains and rivers, often capturing river crossings heavily defended by hostile warlords and Nationalist troops, the most famous of which was Luding Bridge."
A lovely picture of this Luding Bridge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Luding_bridge.jpg
"less than 7,000 were among the original 100,000 soldiers who had started the march. A variety of factors contributed to the losses including fatigue, hunger and cold, sickness, desertion, and military casualties. During the retreat, membership in the party fell from 300,000 to around 40,000."
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OMG! Imagine having to defend that bridge. I couldn't even cross it.
I like the praise of space. it's something we take for granted (except on a NY subway!). but it makes sense in a society where everyone is crowded together that space would be precious.
Kupus sees the Wall as a symbol of the immense effort humans can put into doing the wrong thing. I guess you could say the same of the pyramids. What do you all think?
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interesting thought, JOANK. Actually, the walls were meant for defense, even if they
went overboard building walls everywhere. The pyramids, on the other hand, were simply
magnificent tombs for large egos, imho. One has to appreciate the skill that went into
building them, but like the China Wall, that was an enormous use (waste?) of human labor
and life.
"The world of Hinduism is so that it has space enough for everyone and
everything for mutual acceptance, tolerance, harmony and unity." I remember when I studied comparative languages in college I was impressed by the fact that Hinduism's four-fold approach to divinity included a 'path of love', and Christianity was seen as being on that path.
About this stage of the 'adventure', Kapus has 'taken a fancy' to Herodotus, and is grateful to him. It seems Herodotus was a comfort when he was confused and uncertain, which I gather was fairly often. He says Herodotus seemed to be "kindly disposed toward others" , 'curious', and someone who always had many questions'. I imagine Kapus felt this was a man much like himself.
I know Herodotus got to Persia; I don't think he ever went to Asia. I wonder how the
Chinese would have struck him? That, of course, would be pure speculation.
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You and I are on the same wave length this morning, Babi. I always thought of the pyramid builders as forced labor. Were the wall builders in that same category? Or did they feel they were performing an important service, protecting their people?
As I read through yesterday's posts, it seems that Kapus himself and his adventures in India and China have captured the reader's attention. I wondered if that's what he intended? Do you think this is because of SeniorLearn's readers' curious minds? Or do other readers find his personal experience this much of an attention-grabber? Maybe this is K's way of introducing Herodotus? It seems that when K. is frustrated by the language and cultural barriers, at a loss...looking for something to do, he turns to the Histories - for guidance.
Why do you think Li took Kapus to the Great Wall? It seems to me he's been assigned to give K something to do - to keep him occupied, to distract him. Obviously he wants to keep him from any real information that might be of use to the "West." He was probably expecting Kapus to be impressed with the Wall. If K. could have communicated with him, Li would have been surprised to learn of K's reaction to it - "A horrifying mistake." "Energy wasted."
The Wall is a metaphor, he writes repeatedly. Walls are always the same metaphor, aren't they? Built to separate people.. Kapus is finding this wall most striking in China. What of Herodotus' wall?
I've been reading the introductory chapters to Herodotus' Histories. Kapus will probably go into it in later chapters of his book, but Kapus is finding what Herodotus concluded, that the world is divided into the West (The Greeks) and the East (The Persians), good and evil. Herodotus is set on finding the reasons for these hostilities.
Herodotus and Kapuscinski seem to be on the same wave length - seeking the same answers.
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Joan K. You guessed earlier that the walls he was talking about were not just physical but the barriers of language. Looks like you were right. At the beginning of the chapter on Chinese Thought, he says "I constantly felt the presence of the Great Wall; not the one I had seen several days ago in the mountains to the north, but the much more formidable and insurmountable one for me-the Great wall of Language."
Some time ago, Lake Wobegone writer and Prairie Home Companion host Garrison Keiler left his wife to marry a Danish beauty. He even moved to Denmark to live with her. The marriage did not work out (What a surprise!), and he moved back to America. The principal reason he gave was his inability to communicate with her and others because of the language barrier. They could communicate on a superficial level, but his stock and trade had been WORDS, especially the subtleties, and nuances of words, the double entendres, and shadings of grey you can achieve with words. With just a primitive knowledge of Danish vocabulary, all that was lost to him. It was enough to destroy a marriage.
That's what he said. She said the marriage failed because he had started an an affair with another woman. Take your pick.
Rich
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Gee, Rich, I had thought (hoped) you were going to say that his American wife had taken him back.
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Years ago, I tried to read one of his books - Lake Wobegon Days, I think. Anyhow, only got into it a few pages before I decided that I couldn't read the book like he spoke it on air (it was similarly formatted). For me, the way he communicated on air just didn't work for me in print.
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I cannot stop wondering if we are all behind a wall - not only the wall of language but the wall of understanding each other as we use our personal values and apply them to every person and situation - our personal life experience often determines our viewpoint, our values and we share in common only some life experiences.
Another interesting phenomenon that we all do - we share often or maybe it is that we judge the good, bad, uncomfortable, delightful based on hearing and reading about events and places as compared to being there and seeing and hearing for ourselves - it is as if we are going through two walls and taking as our own an understanding that we conclude as good or bad, uncomfortable, delightful like shadows on the wall created by those who saw and heard and shared. Yep, Plato's cave - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
And so I look at the layers and wonder if Kapuscinski is seeing in his travels the viewpoint outlined by Herodotus - is he altering those viewpoints based on his life experiences/values - he must be altering some of his opinions based on the wall of not understanding the language - and as readers, are we seeing the locations of his travels through his eyes, or are the eyes of movies, news stories, friends eyes, all shadows of reality in competition with Kapuscinski since our earlier exposure we have adapted as truth.
I am thinking of the experience reading the Upanishads for some first hand understanding and yet, I still do not have any understanding of the Upanishads much less Hinduism - Oh I have read more and more to try and dope it out but again, I am reading others interpretations and so all I could do was see the prayers from my own delight or what I saw as good since prayer as I understand it is about good - I have no idea how someone who practices Hinduism in India compares the prayers to his life or the life pulsing around him. Is that why we engage in conversation to penetrate our walls where as some protect themselves with such thick walls they are not curious to what is on the otherside but appear to only want to convert you to include you inside their walls -
Well as JoanK suggested this read seems to encourage inner travel as much as any diary of sorts about outer travel.
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Here is Pllato's allegory of the cave from the Wiki site Barbara posted:
"Plato lets Socrates describe a group of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them, and begin to ascribe forms to these shadows. According to Plato's Socrates, the shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners."
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Rich's story of Keillor is understandable, I think, and K has this to say:
"I also realized that these civilizations are so enormous, so rich, complex, and varied, that getting to know even a fragment of one of them, a mere scrap, would require devoting one's whole life to the enterprise. Cultures are edifices with countless rooms, corridors, balcomies, and attics, all arranged, furthermore, into such twisting, turning labyrinths, that if you enter one of them, there is no exit, no retreat, no turning back."
Fortunately for our interests K is still tempted to cross borders, looking at what is beyond.
All of us have been tempted and our desires met sometimes, even though our borders may not be physical. Life holds many challenges.
Herodotus states that a journey is really never over, because the film of memory continues running on inside of us long after we have come to a physical standstill. Exactly.
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Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-17 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 18-24 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 25-31 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 13-17
1. When in winter we gather around our fires our storytellers are more likely to be on TV but how about when a storm shuts down the electricity or if you are around an outdoor fire, who tells the stories and what kind of stories are told?
2. We learn from a quote by Herodotus why he traveled and wrote – what he was seeking to learn. Did Kapuscinski retrace the steps of Herodotus? Did he alter his curiosities during his travels because of this 2500-year-old travel companion, Herodotus, or did any of his first-hand encounters in India and China change his attitude or curiosities?
3. Kapuscinski devotes two chapters to repeating the writing of Herodotus as if introducing us to his travel companion - ‘Kapuscinski telling fireside stories’ – Does either Kapus or Herodotus tell us how the lives of people are intimately connected to the rhythms of nature—to weather, geography, the cycle of the seasons?
4. Kapus flys over and sees the Nile for the first time in 1960 – what was happening elsewhere in the World in 1960? Can you remember what was important in the US in 1960, or do you remember reading about Nasser or in 1960 what did you know about a Muslim?
5. How does Kapuscinski portray his living under Communist rule while he travels in Egypt
6. Were you taken by surprise or did you suspect the outcome at the Mosque? While traveling have you ever had your trust betrayed?
7. As he tells us in short reviews the places and people Herodotus writes about, are some of the places and people new to you? Why do you think Kapus included these particular stories from Herodotus in his book?
8. How does Kapus describe moving about in an unreal world with dead ends and misleading signs?
9. Other travelers wrote of their experiences. The tone of their writing by those reviewing the book guides us what to expect – example:
- Brilliant comic musing about feeling strange - Bill Bryson
- Sense of freedom or longing in Jack Kerouac's - On The Road
- Funny, sorrowful, and suspenseful, James Joyce’s - Ulysses
- The tastes and pleasures of a foreign country told with gusto and passion, Frances Mayes - Under the Tuscan Sun
- Courage, skill, and determination, Joshua Slocum - Sailing Alone around the World[/li][/list]
- A stunning evocation of America on the eve of a tumultuous decade in Steinbeck’s Travels with Charley
~ How would you describe Kupuscinski’s tone and intent?
10. Would you have liked to meet either Kapuscinski or Herodotus? What would you ask them? Are these authors offering us a self-portrait without writing an autobiography?
11. If there were one travel companion you could resurrect, who would that be and why?
12. If you had the chance to go back and re-live any travel experience, what day would it be and why?
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Temptation? I say curiosity. That which drives scientists, reporters, adventurers, and common folk like me. It is sad to meet someone without it. How much they are missing!
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Yes, kidsal curiosity does seem appropriate - I am thinking temptation may be a word from the book which would be an interesting throw back to his spending most of his life behind the wall first with Germany and then with Russia ruling the roost. With what we know of both controlling nations I bet Kapuscinski would be grounded in the concept that travel is a temptation like taking a bite of forbidden fruit.
I thought it would be fun to look up the town he speaks of as an example of having bare shelves. Put Chodów in the Google Map and find there is more than one Chodów - one in Greater Poland and one in Lower Poland - what in the world I never heard of an upper and lower - what is the difference - how did this happen - well Poland sure has been through the mill - the info on Lower and Greater are here and wow what a story. I did not know that after the war many German speaking Poles were relocated to Bavaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Silesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Silesia
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My impression so far, BARB, is that only curious minds would read the book. Other than
K's observations and his explanations of what he couldn't see/do, there's not much too it.
He writes well, but so far he hasn't really said a great deal worth writing about.
Li's job, imo, is to see that our journalist sees only those things which reflect
well on China. They're not about to let him anywhere near any controversial areas or issues.
Why do you say, "If K. could have communicated with him.."? They spoke Russian with one
another. Of course, neither one is being open and frank.
I'm not seeing the East/West thing in Herodotus. The Persians were indo-european, not
asiatic. And I don't think he saw the Greeks as all good or the Persians as all evil. He
just found everything new and interesting and loved to tell about it. But you may be better
informed on Herodotus, so I'm not hidebound in my opinion.
ELLA, I do hope that K will eventually cross some borders that will allow him to give more
point and purpose to the book.
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You have to feel for Kapus - he wants to do his job, he wants to report, but is not finding the current stories that he hoped to write about. In India, he faces the language barrier...the only events he writes about are those he finds in old books, published twenty or thirty years before, like Tagore's book describing how he would rise at dawn to sing the Upanishads with his father. This seems to be Kapus' way of learning about the Indian people...from old books. I'm wondering what language he is reading.
Babi - I forgot that Li speaks Russian. So he and Kapus do have a common language. We find out at the end of the China section, that East/West friction was responsible for keeping Kapus. from any information of note...no wonder he had nothing to write home about.
" I'm not seeing the East/West thing in Herodotus. The Persians were indo-european, not asiatic."
Babi...I was reading the introductory chapters in Herodotus' Histories. There was no Europe at this time. The center of Herodotus' world was the Aegean Sea. He liked to explore to the West, Greece and to the East, Persia. The real hostilities at the time were between Greece and Persia. Herodotus' goal was to track down the reasons for hostilies...the reasons for war.
I continue to be stunned at the realization that Herodotus fraternizes with Socrates, Pericles and Sophocles when he lived in Athens. I mean, I knew he was Greek...but imagining conversations with these men - brings him to life, doesn't it? Because he wasn't pure Greek, he was forced to leave Athens, but still, to know he was in their company for a short time makes a difference.
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Of course, you are quite right, JOANP. For Herodotus, Persia was 'east'. I do think there
were things he admired about the Persians, tho'. Or perhaps, specific Persians. The good/evil dividing line is, I suspect, what bothers me. They were enemies, and in the general run of things the public is informed about what awful people their enemies are. I would hope a good historian would take a less distorted view and present the facts, good or bad.
It appears K is going to have even less opportunity of reporting current history in China
than he did in India. Mr. Li proves to be as much a wall between China and K as any great
wall could ever hope to be. I do wonder how the Chinese journalist to Poland did, IF they
ever sent him. I mean, just think of all the contamination he could pick up, being allowed
to go about, observe and talk with people. Tsk, tsk.
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So far one of my favorite bits is the bit explaining from Yogi Ramacharka that Breathing... is the most important activity performed by man, because through it we communicate with the world. Several books mentioned that I want to read now- and interesting he does not know English and so he is seeing everything through other rhythms of sound as well as other traditions - which at this point in time I wonder how much of Poland's history he is familiar - how much was Polish history taught although we understand in the first chapter he had a pretty good exposure to the Classical Greek society.
He asks an interesting question that could easily be a topic for us in the US today - Did he believe a European (US English) language to be more important than those languages of this country in which he was (others are) then a guest! Some in the US see other languages as an offense to the dignity of the US suggesting English is a delicate and important matter. I wonder if those who support 'English Only' are equally as prepared to give up their life in the defense of their language, to burn on the pyre. We do not seem to take on those drastic measures do we. But then we were never subjected to a powerful nation with a very different culture ruling over us.
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It's nice for us that Emglish is so widely used. But I'm sure that other languages are just as rich, even richer. Chinese has been used for so long, it should be very rich.
It's interesting where English is rich. And where it isn't. They say that Eskimos have many different words for snow. But English has only one word for "love". So we "love" pizza and "love" our children. What does that say about us?
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I like that he travels to the small cities - not something you think of as the way a reporter goes about his job but as a traveler great - that is what I loved doing when I traveled - I thought I was getting a feel that a big city with all its museums etc. was catering to tourists.
I loved the bit where he had expectations for his time in China and none of it happened. Have you ever been disappointed traveling a long way and not being able to see and do what you had expected?
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Speaking of language, I tried to find a translation of the "horrendous" error of misusing
'eng' and 'ong', but they would not translate. That bad, huh? ;D
I greatly appreciated K's summary of Confucianism and Taoism. I know very little about
those two; mostly just wise epigrams. It's interesting, tho', that all of the Asiatic religions
that emerged about that time emphasized the need for humility. That is a trait not much
valued in Western culture, and we could probably use a good dose of it.
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"the need for humility"
Babi, as I read Herodotus' Histories, I'm finding the need for humility his key principle. Humility and moderation - in everything. When humility is lost, so is the cause. When a king, a people become arrogant and feel superior to others, they are sure to fall just as they are reaching their dream of dominance. What a history lesson! Have we learned it?
Herodotus method of reporting - walk among the people, listen, record, compare their accounts with other stories he has heard. Imagine Kapus reading about this method and finding that he is unable to communicate because of the language barrier. You can see that he is giving up in India - and China too...though he is learning a lot from books, this is not what he really wants to do. Wasn't it fortunate for him that he was called home - removed from the need to quit. I thought he was going to continue trying...thinking that this was his assignment. And continue being frustrated.
Do you think he's going to give up trying to learn English? Funny that he preferred Hemingway's dialog - the descriptive paragraphs were way too complicated. Imagine trying to learn English like this? He seemed to come to the realization that it was more important to learn the language of the inhabitants - and that most of them did not speak English...
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Herodotus sought to learn the reason for war.
I heard a new theory on that question...New for me, anyway. (Babi ,I'm working on my need for humility.)
It seems that wars arose in human development when we began transitioning from a hunting-gathering society to a farming society. As hunter-gatherers we had little property other than what we could carry in our hands or on our back. As farmers, we had property (A patch of growing vegetables or domesticated fowl.) Now we had something worth taking and, presumably, worth defending. Families might group together for mutual defense. Other, more aggressive bands might group together to try to take their property from them.
If a leader emerges as a good defender or good marauder, he becomes chief. If the association of people (good or bad) is large enough, the leader is king, and we're off to the races!
Rich
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I'm thinking that skirmishes were going on before the farming phase because of competition between family units or tribes competing for the same food and water resources (and raids to secure fecund women). I doubt that anyone would call those wars though, even if they escalated into a blood feud between groups.
Oops! Company, gotta run.
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Okay, I'm back. Rich, where would you place nomadic tribes like the American Plains Indians who were not farmers, but followed the migrations of the buffalo? They had their hunting "territories" and regularly warred with their neighbors. I think the tribes the Asian steppes did similar. I don't know about African tribes, except for the bushmen. I think when farming and permanent settlements became common wars certainly took on a whole new aspect.
Tomorrow I guess we start on the next section. Now K really starts to shine with his narrative, no longer focused on him but Herodotus himself.
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Fry, keep an eye on the discussion schedule in the header...we start the next section on the 13th - on Sunday. Added extra day when we added Chinese Thought to this week...a more natural break.
Good point about the nomadic Indians. We'll be getting more into warring in the next section with Kapus' next assignment.
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"They had their hunting "territories" and regularly warred with their neighbors."
Perhaps "territories" are the key, whether they are famland or hunting territories. Just last week, I was watching two snowy egrets fighting, because one tried to invade the other's fishing territory. The newcomer was chased untile he was the other side of a barrior, then both settled down to fish. I didn't stay: if one was catching all the fish, I wonder if the other would have renewed the fight.
(I didn't capture it on film, but this was close to what i saw:)
http://rosswarner.com/1481.html
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Tomorrow is the last day of this selection. it has sure raised a lot of questions. Do post any last thoughts before we go on on Sunday.
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It's interesting where English is rich. And where it isn't. They say that Eskimos have many different words for snow. But English has only one word for "love". So we "love" pizza and "love" our children. What does that say about us?
We may only have one word for "love", but on the whole English is a remarkably rich language, with a much bigger vocabulary than some other European languages. I love this complexity of our language. I love that there are often many words meaning almost the same thing but with different connotations or shades of meaning, allowing for great subtlety in how we can say something. (I make no claim to subtlety in my own speech, but enjoy it in others.)
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Lack of ability to speak the local languages frustrates Kapuscinski in his attempts to understand, or even talk to, the peoples of the countries he visits. IMHO, a feel for the language of a country is an important part of understanding the way of thinking. Different languages have different logics, assumptions, tones, mindsets. I'm not a linguist, but I've seen these different styles in the languages I know to some extent. A striking example is Hungarian (no, I don't know Hungarian). It's claimed that the reason there are so many outstanding Hungarian mathematicians is because the logic of the language is mathematical. One of my daughters learned some Hungarian in preparation for a semester abroad (in math) and she said it's true that the language has a mathematical logic to it.
Which came first, the mindset of a people or the mindset of their language, I can't imagine, but I can see it must be harder to think in ways that your language doesn't make easy.
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Hmm when he talks about the wall - I wonder if he and many of misinterpret - there is the notion that building walls you have to be careful what you wall in and what you wall out but I became aware of an group think that I was not aware of that is typical Chinese that I wonder if it is a mode of operation in other work and decision areas.
Some years ago - 15 or 16 years ago I worked with the start of a long line of referrals (over 45) that are Chinese from China, Hong Cong (when it was separate), Taiwan, Singapore, Korea, Viet Nam and at least 25 Chinese families from Indonesia. Two things were consistent regardless from the Communistic mainland or a more democrats society.
1. of those who were not Christian and some who were but hung on to the old ways consulted a book that had all these signs and what to do on a daily basis - they would never sign an offer without consulting their book which took hours - after looking for and finding a house there is much trust built up so I was privileged to see this activity. The book comes out picking and analyzing an Inspector's report, on and on, Kapus probably was not aware that a meeting was to establish an introduction with any decision only made after a reference to this book - or another example...
2. All, Every, Young, Old, never made a decision without calling the member of the family who holds the purse strings - from every one of the Asian clients, not Indian, I worked with I learned the entire family - brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents all put their money in one account that a member of the family is responsible to over see, send out the monthly stipend, pay taxes, and made some decisions about an investment where as the larger decisions are made as a group with plans for future investing in a big ticket discussed with enough heads up for everyone to see the merits of the over all idea of the investment - Everyones salary goes to the account and an agreed upon stipend is wired back to their account. That is why they always had the highest scores easily able to be approved easily for any loan - here in the US loan officers assume the bank account is for the one I am working with and have no clue.
Often we were in a hot market that we could not proceed making an offer till after they talked long distance to someone in Jakarta or Taipei City or Changping.
Typically we would be writing something up at 8: or 9: in the evening when it is 4: in the morning Jakarta time - so I had to wait till the next day and then meet them outside their office during lunch time and get it to the other agent a full 14 to 16 hours later so that we lost a few houses just because of the time it took to get what happens inside those walls accomplished.
I do not know but I wonder how many other decisions can only be made after a group confab and so, no one says anything of any substance during a meeting.
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Babi, I wonder if they were using the I Ching? I had the book until recently - decided after many years and not read that I lost interest in it. The other possibility would be Feng Shui which was very popular for a while, here at least. I Ching is a method of divination, Feng Shui as I understand it, involves balancing energy for got health. I think of the latter as more of a home decorating thing, like where to place furniture to best advantage for health.
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That seems a reasonable premise, RICH. The more settled people became, the more they
had that was desirable that they needed to protect. Then, don't you think wars became
more widespread as these settled communities grew and became crowded. The need to expand borders, the desire to leave a harsh environment for one more comfortable?
At least those needs and desires were more understandable. Promoting wars purely from
vengeance, or to profit from the sale of arms, or pursuit of power.... ugh.
FRYBABE, wouldn't the hunting 'territory' be equally valuable and desirable? It is still
a matter of protecting the source of all they rely on for survival. I see JOANK makes the
same observation.
Oh, that was BARB who mentioned a book the Chinese consulted. I'm sure she will answer
your question when she comes back in. The 'I Ching' sounds like a reasonable assumption.
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Herodotus attempts to learn the cause of war. Do you think it's the desire to protect from those outside the wall - or the desire to conquer and achieve greatness? As I type, I'm thinking the answer has to be combination of the two. The real question seems to be what motivates the desire to conquer.
"Lack of ability to speak the local languages frustrates Kapuscinski in his attempts to understand, or even talk to, the peoples of the countries he visits." PatH
Clearly Kapuscinski is frustrated in his attempts to communicate with those he most wants to interview. Imagine when he turns to Herodotus' Histories and reads of Herodotus' methods...to wander among the people, to observe, to listen, to compare and to write down what he learns. I understand that the Greek language was universal at the time - even when Herodotus crossed borders, there were colonies of Greek-speaking people. Does this mean that Herodotus did not encounter that GREAT WALL of a language barrier?
One similarity in their styles - Kapuscinski is forced to observe people very closely to learn about them - because of the language barrier, he observes behavior, facial expression, body language - Does he learn this from Herodotus? Is he imitating Herodotus in the way he observes the Hindi and the Chinese? This comparison is an outstanding feature of Herodotus' method of observing not only their differences, but more importantly arriving at their similarities.
Kapus writes of the young Confuscius seeking advice on how to live his life from Lao-Tzu and was told to "rid yourself of all flattery and excessive ambition." Kapus concluded that the common denominator between Confuscianism and Taoism was the recommendation of humility and moderation. Buddhism too. This is striking, because Herodotus reaches the same conclusions observing the Persians and all those who wage war to achieve greatness and rule the world. We'll read about them in the coming week.
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Sorry, Babi and Barb. I caught my mistake too late to fix it. I seem to get you two confused on occasion.
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I can't imagine why, FRYBABE. The two 'BB's? ::)
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And the A! ;D ;D
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I just loved the section where K was talking about oral history and passing stories along while around the campfire. I could almost see his eyes light up as if he were remembering such nights from his childhood. I certainly remember the outings 'round the campfire at night, marshmallows and hot dogs skewered on sticks.
On page 76, at the top, K says: "Culture was always an aristocratic enterprise. And wherever it departs from this principle it perishes as such." I thought that an odd thing to say. But, then a little farther on he mentions again culture in the context of the culture of a people (all inclusive, not just aristocrats). So, the quoted line must refer to the refined arts generally supported by the wealthy as opposed to the latter which encompasses a whole group and is an integral part of their lives, their religious rites, mores, etc.
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Owww Frybabe, I like the lines you were attracted to - re-reading again, the sentence before refers to writing and I am thinking it is suggesting only the aristocrats were able to write and maybe even read - Herodotus says the repository of memory was the individual.
I am remembering reading a Pearl S. Buck book that gave a picture of an Inn for travelers - one large room with raised platforms made from stone that a several had their spot - food was served but the more successful Inns were those who had the best story tellers - for several hours a story teller would drone on in a sing song fashion the news of the day and then a mythological story - some stories repeated often by various story-tellers and all stored in the story teller's memory. Then Chaucer has his stories about folks traveling which suggests while on those long journeys telling stories may be the way they passed the time. And the biggie is Homer, the original story teller that seems to me reading something about him going to gatherings to tell his stories.
So I bet he is suggesting that even in Poland it takes money to buy books and to get an education - we forget how in many countries education in not free but more he lived, at least during his youth, when free or not there was little available formal education.
How privileged we are and we take it so for granted to have free libraries and free education paid for by taxes from those who own property.
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OH yes, it was not I Ching which requires throwing coins - and it was not Feng Shui which requires an elaborate wheel, really a 12 sided shape that gives the impression of a wheel - when I asked about the book I never got a clear title which suggested to me there was no easy English translation - some would say it was like our Bible of sorts and others would say it is a daily guide and still others said it was their book to secure prosperity and good fortune - the Thick book was laid out with part looking like one page of symbols and other pages were lined vertically with symbols (words) in each column - how the page to read was determined I do not know but they would go to various sections of the book before they felt confident to make a decision.
Then there is a whole other bit of to-do and not to-do - little by little I learned many of them
You do not buy a house where the street level is higher by the smallest slant to the house - nor a house that is at the top of a street or cul-de-sac because all the bad (luck) fortune comes into the house.
There really is no luck - there is a cause for everything and luck as we know it that represents 'a good thing coming as a surprise' does not exist.
You do not buy a house with the number address containing the number 4 because that means death. For prosperity, an 8 in the address is best. Red is 'the' good fortune color.
A kitchen must have the stove on the same wall or u shape as the sink rather than across from each other or separated by a place to walk through.
A house cannot have the back door in line with the front door because all the good fortune will come in and go right out. The stair well cannot be opposite the front door because the good fortune will be confused and stop at the door.
You do not buy a house with a stairwell in the center of the house because that breaks a marriage apart and a stair well that turns is best.
You do not buy a house that is orientated north and south especially the front door cannot be facing north - north is bad fortune. And a house on the north side of a hill is bad fortune.
A room with plumbing must be on an outside wall on and on it goes -
These are old traditional beliefs that I never learned the source - most of the folks I worked with labored to speak English - some the accent was thick and I asked them to write the most important things like their name. Helping people to choose a house does not leave much time to chat about anything other than to help them focus on what is important to their future daily life.
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My house flunks several of those criteria: I've been happy in it, but I guess bad luck is coming.
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;) Just means there will not be a Chinese family who every lives in the house unless they are several generations removed from the immigrant beginnings in this country.
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I love this book: it keeps giving me new things to think about. At the very beginning of this section: Herodotus writes "to prevent the traces of human events from being erased by time."
How much we, as we grow older, think about this, not wanting the traces of our lives to be erased by time as we see the people who remember what we do dying off.
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One of the many things that distinguishes humans from animals is the fact that we pass on our knowledge of the past through written and oral traditions.
Ever wonder what knowledge mankind lost in the burning of the library of Alexandria?
Rich
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I used to tutor a Chinese graduate student in the English language and American culture. The first time that he came to my house, he was shaking his head when he came through the front door.
"The walkway to your front door is very bad in Chinese feng shue tradition. Your walkway is straight from the street to the door. It should be curved. Demons can only travel in straight lines. Your walkway should be curved so they can never find your front door."
Rich
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Fascinating, isn't it? The strange customs and traditions and thought habits one meets on travelling to far countries. So much useful information in conducting ones affairs. So many pitfalls in life. Chance, in its endless variations. So many supernatural forces to be avoided, directed or placated. The Egyptians were renowned for their expertise in the mysteries of life. The loss of information in the destruction of that library in Alexandria may have been truly awesome. Jesus, I have on good authority, a Talmud scholar, picked up much wisdom from Egyptian priests (they may have been struck by his aptitude) while sojourning there with his parents to escape the massacre at home, including the ability to bring the dead back to life.
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Thanks rich that is another to add to my collection of do's and don'ts - It is fascinating isn't it to learn what is important to others from various cultures -
JoanK your perception with Herrodotus not wanting the traces of our lives to disappear relating his intent to ourselves today makes you realize most writing and selling their life history are building their own monument and really writing their own elongated eulogy. Sounds awful when you say it that way but that is really what is happening.
Ah, both you rich and Jonathan remind us of the loss to humanity as a result of the library in Alexandria going up in flames. I remember there was a documentary about how papyrus burns but I forget, I think they said the size of the building - looking it up found this site that I had no idea these ancient libraries even existed much less the losses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_libraries
Yes, Jonathan when you hear the stories, Jesus sure was well traveled - the story goes that during those three years before his public life he spent time in the East and there is where he learned Meditation and Contemplation - I had not put it together the influence Egypt had but it makes sense.
Have any of you ever visited that part of the world and seen for yourself the areas that Kapus is telling us about?
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Frybabe I've been wracking my brains trying to remember story telling around a fire - we have had many a fire both in the fireplace and in the backyard as well in many woodland settings. I just keep coming up with memories of singing or just chit chatting - as a kid, I remember us throwing potatoes in the fire and eating them with some salt we threw in our pockets and with my children there was many a squirrel roasted skewed on a stick or a tomato from the garden skewed - the trick there was to catch it before the skin burst - no marshmallows though -
When my son moved over to Magnolia the boys were 17 and 18 and now they are 21 and 22 living in Lubbock - from the time they moved in they had created a fire circle using a few of the fallen trees from a hurricane to make benches and they built these fires that lasted for weeks spending all their time out there chatting, being quiet and feeding the fire - they never seem to watch TV and only came in on their Father's day off to watch football, or baseball or a WWII video movie. Now when they visit first thing is to renew the fire. My daughter's boys do a lot of camping - and the youngest for sure all they do is sing - two of his friends are in the glee club in college and the three of them before college were often called upon for entertainment at various events, but not as storytellers.
For us most stories are re-told around the dinner table especially when the family is visiting each other. Even as a kid I remember learning about the family history around the dinner table or every week when my grandmother visited and my Mom stopped to make coffee or tea.
Do any of you have memories of when family history was wheeled out with the astonishing tales often the start of the telling?
Come to think of it I wonder if that is why we have more history about wars - the experience of war sure provides an astonishing tale as opposed to preparing meals, growing children's experiences, building furniture or even fishing - the stuff of everyday life. Herodotus grabs attention first thing with his salacious tale of wars fought over who captures what women.
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My grandchildren seem to be more interested in hearing the stories of our family history than my sons are. They are hungry for the smallest details of their father's and uncles' childhood. Why is that, I wonder? Maybe my sons grew up hearing stories from me - and the grandchildren do not hear as much.
They love the humorous stories, the stories of when daddy was naughty.
I'm finding Kapuscinski more humorous in his story-telling as we move along in the book. When he leaves China, Kapus returned to Poland - and to a new boss. I thought it humorous the way he tells of the reason he is sent to the Far East and the Pacific Islands. His "expertise" must be in the Far East, due to his experiences in India and China! Is this an example of his humor? Or is he simply trying to make us understand that he was unprepared for this new assignment, knowing nothing of revolts and rebellions.
I'm wondering if he found anything similar in Herodotus' Histories.
Kapus seems to be full of questions about what motivated Herodotus.. is there a parallel between the two of them? Is Kapuscinski as interested to learn the reasons for the hostilities he encounters in Burma, Malaysia, the Congo as Herodotus was passionate in learning the reasons for the hostilities between the Greek and non-Greek communities. I'm wondering too if we are as interested in learning the reasons for the unrest and differences in our time? We want to resolve them, yes, but are we interested in discerning the causes?
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Hmmm--so what feng shui rules am I violating? My house faces north, my address has a 4 in it, it's level is very slightly lower than the street, my front walk is curved, but so slightly I doubt it would confuse a demon, my stairwell is in the middle of the house (never mind that the house was the site of the last 30 years of a very happy marriage). At least I don't have the problem of a New York Times reporter a few years ago. She had her apartment analyzed by several experts, and they all agreed on one thing. There is a central point (don't know how you figure it) which is crucially important, and something good should be there. This was where she had her cat litter box.
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Herodotus starts off by talking about the abduction of women as a cause of war. He quotes the Persians: "Although the Persians regard the abduction of women as a criminal act, they also claim that it is stupid to get worked up about it and to seek revenge for the women once they have been abducted; the sensible course, they say, is to pay no attention to it, because it is obvious that the women must have been willing participants in their own abduction, or else it could never have happened.
Wow, some illogical "blame the victim" arguments have been around for a long time.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-18 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 19-25 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 26 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 19-25
"Among Dead Kings" up to "Time Vanishes"
1. Among Dead Kings : Are you noticing similarities between Herodotus and Kapuscinski's method of reporting? Does Kapuscinski seem to find common ground between the Shah of Iran and Darius based on his reading of the Histories?
2. Does Herodotus try to explain how a king like Darius could perform such cruel, heartless acts and then do something he calls "useful and good?" Could something as magnificent as Persepolis have come about without the inhuman suffering - caused by Darius himself?
3. Honors for the Head of Histiaeus: Are you noting the many contradictions in Herodotus' reports? He describes the king of Sparta as "not in full possession of his faculties," - but goes on to say that he "displays sagacity and common sense." What do these contradictions say about Herodotus' method of reporting?
4. At Dr. Ranke's : Kapuscinski says, as a foreigner without translators, he dreaded the Greek/Persian War more than the Congolese conflicts he was assigned to cover. What do you think he meant by this?
5. Greek Techiniques: While in Africa, Kapuscinski concentrates not so much on the wars, but on Herodotus' technique, to learn the art of reporting. What is the difference between their techniques? What does Kapuscinski borrow from him?
6. Do you agree with Kapucinski on technology's impact on how we communicate? What does this say of our online communication? Are face-to-face book clubs a better means of communicating ideas?
7. Do you wonder why Ethiopia was of interest to the Polish Press? Lacking funds, Kapuscinski was without translators. How did this affect his methods of gathering information and reporting?
8. Before Torn Apart by Dogs and Birds: "...a sinister hurricane is brewing in Herodotus' world where events are shifting to where Greece and Persia meet, where Asia and Europe meet, to the very omphalos of the world." p.189 "omphalos"? How often must this history repeat itself?
9. Xerxes Does Herodotus believe that Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset no matter what? Does Herodotus believe in predestination?
10. Oath of Athens Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished. This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny. Do you agree with him? Does Kapuscinski? Does history repeat itself nevertheless?
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Pat. do you think this is Herodotus' dry sense of humor we're seeing here. Sarcasm, perhaps. We know he's Greek - the Persians are the enemy. Even though the Persians see the abduction of these women as criminal...they claim "it is stupid to get worked up about it." Maybe he agrees with you - and is taking off on the Persians illogical blame the victim argument. I found myself wishing I had another translation of what Herodotus had to say about the Persians. I bet the translations vary...
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Blessings on you, Pat. It's our innocence that has kept the demons from our door. But now that we have learned how to outsmart them, there goes our happiness. On the other hand, Chinese demons may be limited to travelling only straight lines, the demons I can imagine with my Western mind much prefer the devious route.
I have no doubt that Kapuscinski took a very professional interest in Herodotus's TRAVELS. Reporting and editing the news was K's job, investigative journalism was a step beyond that.
'...and so I burned the midnight oil studying up on guerrilla warfare in the jungles of Burma and Malaysia....' Nothing about gorillas. May his innocence protect him.
I can appreciate K's desire to preserve the past just like Herodotus, but primarily one reads history to learn the ways of the world, and the heart of man. But I wonder if he was also providing his readers with alternative examples of political and governmental styles. He was, after all, writing in the middle of the Cold War for Communist readers.
I would have thought a minaret the safest place in the world. He's robbed, but doesn't report it to the police. Interesting. My chums and I often crossed the border into the U.S.A for an evening of fun when we were young. It was a rule never to report a victimization of any kind to the local police. Never got any justice as foreigners. Don't misunderstand. I hold no grudges. Policemen are always overworked. Happy times. To be young and carefree. And innocent of anything.
It's all Homer's fault, when he discovered that the abduction of Helen made a fantastic theme. Subsequent writers soon picked up on that.
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I got a good sample of how translations vary yesterday when I went to get a copy of Herodotus out of the library, and spent some time comparing passages in the three available to see which was most readable. Unfortunately, I hadn't yet read any of this section of Kapus. The one I picked, translated by Andrea l. Purvis, seems both readable and careful, and in her preface she remarks "The tone and style of Herodotus is alternately high and low, objective and subjective, analytic and whimsical, complicated and straightforward."
Her translation of the bit about abduction starts: "Now the Persians think--etc", and later, concerning Helen, "The Persians claim that while they themselves, Asiatics, thought nothing of the women being abducted, ...". He's still in the process of trying to figure out who started everything, but he's taking sides.
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These Greek wars, I seem to remember, were always struggles to maintain their freedom from subjection.
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Was it in Herodotus Histories (which I haven't finished) or was it in The Travels... anyhow, the reason for the start of the war was first blamed on the kidnapping of a group of women shopping on the dock and then he says the princess abducted was sleeping with the ship's captain but then he goes on to a bunch of skirmishes between kings before the all out war - after all the serious and frightening war situations Kapus had experienced and wrote about before this book I just thought, like JoanP sees sarcasm, that he was tongue and cheek with dry humor over the idea of major war because of 'a' or 'several' women did not match anything he saw in real life. I thought he was ballyhooing Herodotus's idea that women were to blame -
Pat my house does not have stairs but oh oh oh - like throwing spilled salt over your shoulder I think it is funny to see how many Anglos take seriously what many of the children or grandchildren of Chinese immigrants laugh at. And the cost of having your house analyzed using Feng Shui is astonishing. Ah so... while doing a job you learn all sorts of differences and taking them seriously builds trust - now that to me is the key to calming down the war drums - Kapus talked of 'listening' - not easy to listen when we only see walls is it.
Pat, seems to me I read that it was the Andrea l. Purvis translation that Kapus used.
JoanP yes, "I'm wondering too if we are as interested in learning the reasons for the unrest and differences in our time? We want to resolve them, yes, but are we interested in discerning the causes?" I am seeing even in this nation a void in how folks really do not understand why areas of the country think and act so differently.
Yes, Jonathan I agree, that sounds more like it - examples of political and governmental styles - that does sound like the eye opener for Kapus who lived behind walls topped with razer wire - still trying to figure out where he was going town to town - he talked of the border area which sounded like the border between Poland and free Germany being less populated however, when you look on the map Chodów is closer to the border of what is Belarus that would have been included in the USSR. I'm as curious about Poland as he seems to be about India, China and now Mediterranean Africa. Funny I never think of Egypt as being in Africa.
After the minaret experience nothing is sacred - with all his paranoia over watching eyes he should have headed to a minaret to stash his empty bottle. Less eyes if you can get a stranger out on the ledge with no eyes running for help. That whole experience waiting for the other reporters I thought screamed 'I grew up in Communist Poland' as much as, his clothes gave him away in Rome.
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A 'by the way' one of my past clients just emailed this to me - interesting web site but the article emailed shows what Indonesia is about today. http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/iwan-fals/
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I lost Senior Learn completely yesterday, just as I was trying to post here. So today you're getting it all. :D
K. sees an order in Herodotus reporting. He finds a 'first principle', which he sees as putting in order all the information he's uncovered, and establish where, when, with whom did this story begin? Logical approach.
The second law he sees in Herodotus statement "human happiness never remains long in the same place". That, to me, takes some explanation. K explains it using the story of Croesus and Solon, the great Greek renowned for his wisdom and his part in the founding of the democratic city-state government of Athens. I'm sure you all knew this story. But the point seems to be, "It is necessary to see the end of anything....and to see how it will turn out, because the god will offer prosperity to men, but then destroys them utterly and completely". It occurs to me, that it is hard to definitely state a final outcome to anything. You may say who won a battle, but that is seldom the 'end'. There is always an aftermath, and future generations may bring about a complete reversal of even this.
Herodotus third law, or principle, is declared to be "Not even a god can escape his ordained fate." How strange. Croesus punishment is declared to be in payment for the crime of an ancestor four generations past. And this vague 'fate' is more powerful than the gods? What sort of being do these ancients perceive 'fate' to be?
I wonder, now, if, and how, these principles might influence K's reporting?
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Croesus punishment is declared to be in payment for the crime of an ancestor four generations past.
I immediately thought of Edgar Cayce who believed that we atoned for the sins in our past lives; he believed in reincarnation. I never studied ancestor worship, except where snippets were included in other historical writings, so I only have a very broad impression of it. I wonder if the notion that we atone for our ancestor's sins comes out of or is a driving influence in ancestor worship. Does the surviving family continue to pay for an ancestor's sins on down the ages, or is there a point where the sins have been avenged (not quite the word I want) and further retribution is no longer a factor.
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A busy busy day here - had meant to read the references to Book I and the abduction of women by the Phoenicians...to see how Herodotus handled that topic. Did he agree that it was not worth starting a war over? Still mean to do that..
Just time this morning for some quick observations..
That's an interesting thought, Babi...how might Herodotus' principles have influenced Kapus reporting? We've already seen signs of it...the way K presents certain information, leaving out his reaction to what he is reporting. The same trait in Herodotus seems to drive him crazy - but isn't K doing the same thing? Isn't this the sign of a good reporter - presenting the facts, without allowing personal bias or opinion interfere with them?
Kapus is studying Herodotus' methods very closely - his conclusions, his principles seem to come from unbiased observation of the facts.
You mention Croesus - who gets much of Herodotus' attention. DId you notice the reference in this past week's episode of Downton Abbey? Mary refers to another character as "rich as Croesus." Were other historians reporting on his wealth - or is he known from Herodotus' work?
Did you think it strange that Herodotus, a Greek, spent much time speaking with the Persians while Darius was king? Was this a dangerous undertaking?
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".....Croesus, whose story resembles that of the biblical Job, for whom Croesus was perhaps the prototype." This is just Kapus' opinion, but I wonder what other real-life ancient people got their stories "spiritualized" and adapted into sacred texts.
Kapus is an enigma to me. He is afraid to throw a beer bottle into a trash receptacle, but he blindly goes off on a jaunt with a shady character who ultimately demands his wallet (with the implication that if the wallet is not produced, off the top of minaret he goes), and, later, into the desert with two strangers promising him hashish.
Whenever I read "travel" writing, I enjoy it most if I can identify with the author. Kapus is making that hard for me.
Rich
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On the other hand, if he just stayed in his hotel room and ordered up room service, it wouldn't be a very interesting book, would it?
Rich
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Wow Babi you just raised the bar - now I need to go back and re-read those two chapters after you found those nuggets.
Frybabe ancestor worship never thought of the connection but you are onto something - like you I have heard of ancestor worship but have not looked at it more than a passing bit of trivia.
All this book does it seems is be a storyline to keep close at hand many other books and to learn about things that seldom grab our attention until we allow ourselves to ask why and when was that or who did what.
JoanP isn't there a story told to children about Croesus turning everything he touches into gold and he cannot hug his daughter because she would be turned into a statue of gold. Seems to me while reading something by Micheal Woods found by archaeologists was the ruins of the house that was attributed as being the home of Croesus. It was a popular saying that we do not hear as often today - Rich as Croesus
Rich he sure seems reckless doesn't he - my thought was a travel book is usually how someone overcame some difficulty and therefore had embarked on an adventure - thus a problem, climax, solution ending. I am thinking these impulsive risks are his problems that make the book an adventure story - I guess no different than someone who risks life and limb to climb tall mountains, or hunt wild animals, or like Richard Louis "Dick" Proenneke.
Dick is the one who made a film of his adventure. When he retired in 1968 he builds a log cabin at Twin Lakes, Alaska and lived alone hunting, fishing and gathering berries for the next 30 years. Most of his problems were not tackling wild animals or getting himself lost in a blizzard but simply the adventure of making all sorts of cooking and storage out of tin cans from goods delivered to him by a bush pilot a couple of times a year or finishing his fireplace before winter freezes everything.
I guess we could look closer at our own simple lives and find the adventures but yes, going off with strangers seems to be asking for trouble. He does say he does not know why he does this and questions himself but quickly goes forward - Like you say it would not be a story if he acted cautiously. ;) Maybe he is writing a warning of what not to do.
When I have traveled I am seldom travel alone to a place where I do not know the language. - One time hiking in Mexico with 7 others - we had a burro to carry our backpacks and a local guide - hiking up a mesa with 6 ft tall grass kept us on a path when all of a sudden this guy looking like a typical movie version of a bandito with a handle bar mustache rides up out of no where. On his hips are two pistols and two shot guns on the saddle telling us to stop and stay put - we stop - there was no way we could hide or run -
In minutes, back he comes with of all things a two year old child behind the pommel in front of him on the saddle. He wants us to take his picture with his grandchild - talk about relief -
The one guy in our group goes to this area 4 or 5 times a year and take pictures that the next trip he delivers - word in this remote area travels - while on this trip he gave a young man the photo of his Dad taken during the last trip and the young man bursts into tears - seems the Dad died only two weeks before and this was the only photo they will have of the Dad.
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I don't think K tells us the whole story of his adventures, just enough to make us think he is a bit naive and not well informed. I suspect he was neither. He is somewhat self-effacing.
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Frybabe I like that thought - because you are so right - how could he be... but then wait, is he telling us how it was for him back when he first started - sharing more of his memories do you think rather than, writing as an experienced reporter? What do you think? All of his books appear to be written many years after the fact. Has anyone read any of his other books - did he include telling stories about his ineptness in other books?
I am wondering if we share our stories trying to re-capture how we felt at the time? Or maybe there was not yet all the warnings of what to look out for when you go away from home - he wrote this in 2008 about things that he experienced in 1960 - a year or so to write the book so that would be about 45 yeas later - hmm -
Maybe he is having fun with the whole thing and showing how if you go out as a rookie reporter with Herodotus as either a companion or a guide there is a lot of goofy things that happen. Because JoanP brought up this, Did you think it strange that Herodotus, a Greek, spent much time speaking with the Persians while Darius was king
What do the rest of you think - is Kapus not well informed for real or is he omitting parts of his adventure to make a good story or is he as Frybabe thinks self-effacing?
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I've got his Shah of Shahs and the one about Hallie Selassie on my wish list.
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You're right, JOANP. A reporter is supposed to present the facts. Commentary,
conclusions, opinions, etc., are the domain of 'commentators' or experts in the
field...whatever it might be. That's generally what we see in TV news today, tho'
some news programs do seem to present the news in a way that furthers their own
political views.
I would think that generally a ruler would be pleased with a writer who wished
to document his exploits and views. Of course, they would be equally displeased if
the writings attacked them in any way. A reporter in foreign territory definitely
needs to be prudent and discreet. Consider 'K' in China!
I don't know about 'spiritualizing' old stories, RICH, but certainly any well-
known story or person could be used as an example that the hearers would readily
recognize.
I loved the story about the young man who takes pictures for people in remote
areas, BARB. That is such a thoughtful thing to do. He was able to provide something
of great comfort to one family, and probably to many others.
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Would I like to meet Kapuscinski or Herodotus? If it were possible, I think I'd like to meet the two at the same time...sit around that fire and just listen to their conversation. But what language would they be speaking? :D
Forced to choose? I think it would have to be Herodotus. In the back of my mind, when I read of his goals and methods, I can't stop wondering why anyone would accuse him of being a liar. How did he get the reputation of "Father of Liars"?
Kapus admits he was overwhelmed by the language and cultural barriers in India and China...but writes that "Africa, though more fragmentary, was approachable" - despite the obvious language barriers. Why is this?
It seems that Kapus is really learning Herodotus' techniques while in Egypt, putting them to good use when he himself goes to Africa - I find I'm getting the two of them confused. Both rely on personal contact - facial expression, body language - just as important as verbal exchange...
Isn't it amazing the way Kapuscinski picks up language - wherever he is? Does Herodotus have the same ability? Language never seems to be a problem for him - even when in Africa...
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I am in Egypt now with K and H. And there they are, the ancients debating whether Egypt was the oldest civilization or not. I never considered the the story of Heracles might have originated with the Greeks but adopted from Egyptian lore. I guess, even back then with travel being so hard and taking so long, most peoples did not live in a complete vacuum.
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JoanP I wondered too why Africa was more approachable - he says something about it being closer to Europe - with many of the African nations controlled by European nations he may be right - but then I wonder how he judged that impression being shut inside a nation controlled by a super-power and isolated from education as a young boy.
Trying to imagine what that was like growing up during the 30s, 40s and 50s in Poland. He does not refer to the war years - we are eking out bits and pieces of his life as he tells his tales and he started the book telling us about attending University and how unprepared they were but nothing about his childhood. His photos show him to have that round impish face typical among some Poles - I can see from his photos how easy it would be to take a liking to the man and wave him along if you were a foreign journalist.
History is difficult to write about just as I think a reporter commenting is difficult to read because we only can see through their eyes and their understanding of right and wrong, what is important down to how they observe what is happening. I thought Kapus learned much in India when he realized his values of being independent and not adding to what he saw as taking advantage of the labor of others would not allow a family to eat - maybe that is it - he goes to the other extreme in Egypt turning to anyone who offers help or an adventure.
I think too I would like to meet Herodotus and ask him what his impressions were of those Greeks he met whose work we still read today and I would like to know more of how he and his small group traveled - horse, donkey or camel and what they took with them and how they replenished their food supplies -
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Frybabe recently saw a time chart and too I never put it together just how old Egyptian culture is and the influences Egypt had on so many later cultures. I only read recently that the earliest Jewish religious practices were borrowed bits and pieces from Egyptian religion
JoanK didn't you live for awhile in this part of the world - did you get into Egypt - had you heard of this reporter because some of the events must have still have been talked about when you lived in Israel.
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"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it." I think that's roughly the famous quote by George Santayana.
Kapus gives us reenforcement of its truth with two stories in his readings from Herodotus. Darius' sending of Zopyrus (of the disfigured face) into Babylon to win the confidence of the Babylonians through deceit and open the gates of the city to Darius' army, is an instant replay (if several centuries apart can be an instant replay) of the Trojan horse deceit.
The Scythians' strategic retreat over the steppes of what I imagine to be Ukraine and Russia, wearing Darius down with the vast lands he had to traverse, while trying to get the Scythians to stand still and fight, portends Napoleons failed campaign in the same region, and in more modern times, the Nazis failed incursion. At least Darius had the good sense to cut his losses and go home with his army intact. Napoleon and Hitler were not so wise.
Rich
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Rich you have referred to WWII in at least one earlier post and with that in mind it just hit me I guess that was what the Japanese did starting WWII. Their Peace envoy was here I think while they were bombing Pearl Harbor or just the week before the bombing attack.
Glad you knew where Herodotus was talking about - I kept going for a map to figure it out and would easily get waylaid reading about another tidbit - and so it was the land where both Neapolitan and Hitler lost their troops.
I wonder why of the stories Herodotus includes in The Histories Kapus decided to tell these particular stories - do you make any connection between the stories he includes and his travels? I am thinking an author just willy nilly does not include every bit and spangle in a book so what is the importance of these stories do you think?
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Barb, I'm sort of guessing at the location of the Scythians. Kapus(Herodotus) tells us that the Scythian homeland was north of the Black sea, and between the Danube and the Volga. That kind of puts them in the Ukraine/Russia vicinity on modern political maps.
Rich
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Very interesting, Rich, that you should remind us of that famous quote from George Santayana. It's so familiar, but what was the context and time in which he used it. Does anyone know? Was he, for example, reminding Europeans that much of their calamitous history might have been avoided if they had calculated their political and military moves with more hindsight?
Some guys are just too selective with their reading. Obviously Napolean and Hitler didn't read Herodotus on Darius. You can depend on it, however, that they knew all about Alexander the Great and Cortes the Conquistador, and their amazing feats.
As for that perfidious Japanese envoy and the infamous attack on the unsuspecting American fleet...that must be the most awesome historical lesson of all.
Not long ago I was reading Edmund Morris's COLONEL ROOSEVELT. What an amazing man. In 1912, on his way to Republican Convention in Chicago, hoping to get the nomination for another run at the presidency, Roosevelt was reading his copy of Herodotus. For the twenty-two hours he spent on the Limited as it puffed its way west. (page 195) He must have found the Scythian cavalry tactics awesome.
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Who would have guessed that about Roosevelt Jonathan... Many of the presidents were well read and then a few - well what can we say.
Here is a link to Purdue where the web site for the Society for George Santayana is managed - not sure but I also think it is where the Society's Board meets.
http://iat.iupui.edu/santayana/content/santayana-quotations
And the quote from the book Life of Reason book I can be read on Gutenberg but also, this sight which I prefer the layout - I have this set to the section of the last chapter that contains the quote - if it does not come up for you it is on p 284 the last chapter.
http://archive.org/stream/lifeofreasonorph11sant#page/284/mode/2up
Wow Rich, to be able to quote Santayana - Talk about a book you can take months to read is anything written by Santayana - The depth of this man - whow!
Golly we get into more back up material reading this book than I can ever remember reading a book with Senior Learn - oh maybe the Tempest but those backup books all seem to be of one theme where this book we are all over the map - from The Histories to current history, Religion, Wars, to people, places and now philosophy - so far, no curiosity to satisfy about flora and fauna.
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JOANP, maybe it's simply because so much of Africa was dominated by Europeans
that many languages might be found there. That would be particularly true of
Africans living in the cities. Facial expression and body language can be so
revealing, but it can be a snare in foreign countries. There customs might be
such that what would seem to be shyness, or coldness, in one country is simple
courtesy in another.
I have always understood that the Japanese military felt a great disgrace over
the timing of the Pearl Harbor attack. The envoys here were supposed to give
Roosevelt a declaration of war, but the notice was delayed because those responsible
were not able to get it typed in time on the old manual typewriters..in English, yet. Would any of you know for certain whether this is true or not?
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Karusu, the chief Japanese envoy to the US claimed that he was not aware of the impending attack at Pearl Harbor.
From Wikipaedia....After the war, Kurusu was a visiting professor at Tokyo University and lived at a country estate in Karuizawa with his wife Alice. Kurusu maintained for the rest of his life that he had been unaware of the plans for Pearl Harbor. "It must seem absurd to you," he told Frank Robertson of INS, "but it's true. The militarists kept their secret extremely well."[14] He died at the age of 68.
Rich
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"I wonder why of the stories Herodotus includes in The Histories Kapus decided to tell these particular stories - do you make any connection between the stories he includes and his travels?" Barbara
I've been wondering the same thing, Barb. I can think of two reasons -
The first - Kapus seems to turn to Herodotus when he has a difficult assignment - turns to him for guidance. The Histories are becoming almost like a Bibile to Kapus - he finds wisdom and comfort reading that Herodotus faces the same bewilderment and feelings of loss - no matter which page, which stories he happens to open. Lately though, I'm finding stronger parallels between the people each man features. In the next section which we'll begin tomorrow, Kapuschinski continues his references to the Persian king Darius and the Shah of Iran.
(Do you think we need more time - another day, for this section before beginning the chapter, "Among Dead Kings?")
There is another reason Kapus decides to tell these particular stories - remember the three laws of History, which Herodotus outlined in the early chapter of his book? These "laws" or "principles" seem to be the result of his life's work - of all the interviews he conducted. The second half of the book seems to demonstrate Herodotus' principles...
- Who first undertook the acts of aggression? His answer seems to be the law of revenge which he concludes was a sacred obligation.
- Human happiness is elusive - doesn't remain in the same place. The law of moderation - never want too much. Lust for conquest dims judgement.
Kapuschinski is reminded of Napoleon's campaign for Moscow when reading Herodotus on Cyrus...and Darius too.
- Not even a god can escape his own fate, his destiny. I'm not sure if Kapuschinski holds this same belief in predestination. Herodotus seems to.
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"Maybe it's simply because so much of Africa was dominated by Europeans that many languages might be found there." Babi
There is the proximity to Europe, Babi. But Herodotus also seems to be struck by the many language differences when he visited Africa too...before there was a Europe. Herodotus describes his method when he visited Egypt -as he wandered, talked, listened to all the details. His goal - to amass new information, check the reliability of the data he had gathered, compare, and then formulate his own conclusions.
I got a kick out of the attempt to prove who were the first to inhabit the land by the earliest who spoke the language...remember the story of the two infants raised in the uninhabited mountains...The first child to speak the word for "bread' must be from the first people in Egypt. Language differences were an issue, a point of honor- especially the oldest. There was more to the story - which I'm forgetting just now. The point is - Kapuscinski seems to be choosing stories from Herodotus' Histories to compliment his own experiences as he travels.
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This site just popped up on my radar: http://ancientweb.org/index.php/explore/country/Persia
I posted the Persian link, but do check out all the other ancient history pages.
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An amazing site, Fry! Thank you so much for bringing it to our attention. I was taken with the extent of the Persian Empire at this time - 500BC. Herodotus would be about 15 yrs. old at this time, right? Of course he has no idea of its size...but he hears more and more about it - word of mouth.
(http://ancientweb.org/images/explore/Persia_Map_Empire.jpg)
I came in this morning to make a change in the discussion schedule a wee bit...to give us another day to catch up. We were scheduled to move on to the Chapters beginning with Dead Kings and Forgotten Gods (wish we had chapter numbers, don't you? Would make it easier to reference.) Let's spend another day reading (or rereading) the last two chapters - "The Face of Zopyrus" and "The Hare" (pages 126 - 144 in the hardcover edition) - because they are so important - in the history of the world, our world. I'll go now and put this change in the schedule in the heading at the top of this page.
Doesn't it make you stop and think of how different our world would be today if Cyrus or Darius had been successful and the Persians had been successful in conquering the Western World? - They came so close at this time!
Who knows, maybe they would have been "benevolent conquerers" as they were in Babylon...
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At last! My computer is repaired and I'm able to use it again.
Good for me, hopefully for some of you!
I have felt astonished, reading about your interest in JK:s involvement in the communist party. As a born Polish, in his mind the world outside must have been the same as Poland. Naturally he believed in the society where he was raised. It takes time for anybody to disclose his own country, and see that is has defects. The interesting, from my point of view, is his intention to use Herodotus as a travel companion and guide into the unknown, historic world. A world that is unknown for most people, except for a few researchers.
It is true that the Greeks always were fighting the people east of their borders. There is still an animosity against the Turks. That, and other conflicts, is the reason for me to seeking the truth and the source for this fights between east and west.
But after reading about Persepolis, I wish I could have stood there in the dawn with JK, and see and feel the beauty of something so impressive and still so immensely beautiful.
Did you know that he was mentioned in the discussions for the Nobel Prize in literature!
Olle
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It appears I am falling well behind in my reading. I need to do some catch-up.
I was puzzled by that story of the Egyptian king who arranged for two infant
children to be reared in isolation by a shepherd. He ruled that whatever language
these isolated children spoke must be that of the world's oldest people, a subject
in which he was greatly interested. Their first word turns out to be 'bread' in
the Phyrigian language, so he declares the Phrygians to be the 'first' people.
Surely one would assume the children would learn the language of the shepherd who
tended them. Did I miss something here? Was the shepherd ordered never to speak
to them???
JOAN, it was K who found Africa 'more accessible'. And of course, by then many
Africans spoke English, or French, or whatever European language dominated the area.
Herodotus would, of course, have had to rely heavily on observation and whatever
he could find in the way of an interpreter.
One important point K makes about Herodotus is that he was never shocked at
differences, never condemned them. "..rather, he tries to learn about it, to
understand and describe it".That sounds to me like the ideal approach for any
traveler. I am totally at a loss to understand an attitude like that of a friend
of my daughter's, who took a tour of Italy and complained constantly that the food
wasn't like they made it at home!
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Eastern rulers haven't changed much since Darius.
Quoting from Kapus: Reading what Herodotus writes on eastern rulers we can see that all of them perform cruel deeds... (End of quote)
Herodotus then goes on to tell the story of the father who asked if one of his three sons could please be left behind in the land of the Scythians. Darius obliged by leaving all three of his sons behind ...with their throats cut.
In recent times, Saddam Hussein had one of his officers arrested on suspicion of treason. The officer's wife went to Hussein, whom she knew, and asked that her husband please be returned to her. He complied by returning her husband.....in twelve boxes.
Eastern leaders can still perform cruel deeds.
Rich
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Olle! Wonderful to hear that your computer is fixed and that you are able to join us at last! Welcome!
Olle is coming to us from Sweden, and so naturally he will have a slightly different perspective - which is always welcome here!
"It is true that the Greeks always were fighting the people east of their borders. There is still an animosity against the Turks." That isn't surprising, is it? You remind us of Kapuscinki and Herodotus' purpose - they are both seeking the reason for the animosity between the east and the west. Even more than that, perhaps. They both seem to be looking at the reasons for war in general. No wonder Kapuscinski was considered for a Nobel prize!
More on Darius, his cruelty and Persepolis tomorrow, Rich. Glad you picked up on the contradiction that cruel leaders can produce beauty - but at what cost?
Babi...notice that we have tacked another day on this week's discussion schedule- just for you! And those who need some catch-up time...
You ask an interesting question about those poor children - and the shepherd who tended them. Were the children brought up in total silence? How did the shepherd know what they wanted to eat? Perhaps the child was pointing at whatever the shepherd was eating and called it bread - in Phyrigian? Who told this story to Herodotus?
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Babi...I was struck by the tribes were were displaced at the time Kapus was assigned to the Congo. They don't know where they are ...they don't know where they are going. They can only speak their tribal language and so when asked where they are from or where they are going, they cannot communicate with anyone at all. To tell the truth, I can't remember which chapter I read about that. Maybe you need to catch up. Don't want to be a spoiler. We can talk about that tomorrow. But, I do see a terrible, disorientating language barrier in Africa in the sixties...
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Oh my so much happening today - yes WELCOME Ollie - so glad your computer is allowing you to join us - what a wonderful spot on view - It takes time for anybody to disclose his own country, and see that is has defects. I think that can be said of all organized groups as well as, families and individuals.
Frybabe that is a wonderful site you found and shared - finally there is a clearer picture of those two chapters filled with the story that for me was a struggle like learning something new with no reference point. And so reading the facts in the web site allowed me to put it all together - looks like there are several parts of the ancient world discussed in the site so that is one I will be using for a while -
Babi with decisions like the two children and language made by the Egyptian King always made me look at the ancients like children playing 'king of the hill' and yet, without what today we consider common sense they left behind more than amazing sculptures and relief but their warfare and political maneuvering is still part of our life today.
It is interesting to see a Shakespeare play done in today's clothing - a different perspective that does not show itself when the plays are done in period costume - I think seeing some of these stories played out in contemporary dress may do the same where we could probably see how we are only repeating the past as Rich you reminded us with the Santayana quote.
Thinking on it Rich, it is more than just Eastern Rulers who have not changed - we may not cut up the dead and deliver them in boxes but we do bind the cruelty behind government forces that say they are for our protection using long range weapons - I wonder often if just knowing the past would make a more civilized way of life - greed, a desire for additional power and to prove their power seem to be the lesson of these stories from Herodotus and other historians.
Joan thanks for including the map - it sure helps - I wish I could blow it up - maybe there is one on another site.
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oh good following Frybabe's effort to look up more about the Persians I thought a closer look at the Scythians would help - and what do you know a map that shows their land in relationship to 'Parthia' Medina and Assyria.
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/scythians_map.jpg
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OH my - here is a bit from Herodotus' fourth book about the Scythians
When a Scythian has slain his first man, he drinks some of his blood: and of all those whom he slays in the battle he bears the heads to the king; for if he has brought a head he shares in the spoil which they have taken, but otherwise not. And he takes off the skin of the head by cutting it round about the ears and then taking hold of the scalp and shaking it off; afterwards he scrapes off the flesh with the rib of an ox, and works the skin about with his hands; and when he has thus tempered it, he keeps it as a napkin to wipe the hands upon, and hangs it from the bridle of the horse on which he himself rides, and takes pride in it; for whosoever has the greatest number of skins to wipe the hands upon, he is judged to be the bravest man. Many also make cloaks to wear of the skins stripped off, sewing them together like shepherds' cloaks of skins; [66] and many take the skin together with the finger-nails off the right hands of their enemies when they are dead, and make them into covers for their quivers: now human skin it seems is both thick and glossy in appearance, more brilliantly white than any other skin. Many also take the skins off the whole bodies of men and stretch them on pieces of wood and carry them about on their horses.
Lots more - here is a translation of the book - at seems Kapus is telling his story from his understanding of the Persians point of view and summarizing much of what Herodotus says about the Scythians.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus_4.htm
Kapuscinski interjects his thought about how we interpret reality - is this his way do you think of telling us he understands his own forays into dead ends and misleading signs because of growing up in Poland? I am thinking this sounds like when we first went into Iraq and had no clue the intensity among the people as to if you were Shia or Sunni and most of us barely knew the difference. How many other pots do you think are stirred without knowing the ingredients and how they are best prepared.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-18 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 19-25 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 26 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 19-25
"Among Dead Kings" up to "Time Vanishes"
1. Among Dead Kings : Are you noticing similarities between Herodotus and Kapuscinski's method of reporting? Does Kapuscinski seem to find common ground between the Shah of Iran and Darius based on his reading of the Histories?
2. Does Herodotus try to explain how a king like Darius could perform such cruel, heartless acts and then do something he calls "useful and good?" Could something as magnificent as Persepolis have come about without the inhuman suffering - caused by Darius himself?
3. Honors for the Head of Histiaeus: Are you noting the many contradictions in Herodotus' reports? He describes the king of Sparta as "not in full possession of his faculties," - but goes on to say that he "displays sagacity and common sense." What do these contradictions say about Herodotus' method of reporting?
4. At Dr. Ranke's : Kapuscinski says, as a foreigner without translators, he dreaded the Greek/Persian War more than the Congolese conflicts he was assigned to cover. What do you think he meant by this?
5. Greek Techiniques: While in Africa, Kapuscinski concentrates not so much on the wars, but on Herodotus' technique, to learn the art of reporting. What is the difference between their techniques? What does Kapuscinski borrow from him?
6. Do you agree with Kapucinski on technology's impact on how we communicate? What does this say of our online communication? Are face-to-face book clubs a better means of communicating ideas?
7. Do you wonder why Ethiopia was of interest to the Polish Press? Lacking funds, Kapuscinski was without translators. How did this affect his methods of gathering information and reporting?
8. Before Torn Apart by Dogs and Birds: "...a sinister hurricane is brewing in Herodotus' world where events are shifting to where Greece and Persia meet, where Asia and Europe meet, to the very omphalos of the world." p.189 "omphalos"? How often must this history repeat itself?
9. Xerxes Does Herodotus believe that Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset no matter what? Does Herodotus believe in predestination?
10. Oath of Athens Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished. This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny. Do you agree with him? Does Kapuscinski? Does history repeat itself nevertheless?
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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"Kapuscinski interjects his thought about how we interpret reality - is this his way do you think of telling us he understands his own forays into dead ends and misleading signs because of growing up in Poland?"
Barbara, I'm not sure he's saying that...but he is definitely commenting on the differing ways we interpret reality because of what was first real to us. Ever since Olle posted, I'm trying to look at Kapuscinski through his Polish eyes and understand how we might view history in a different way. He lived through the war, experienced what we have only read about. Much like Herodotus, who lived and roamed where West met East.
Today we'll begin a new chapter - with the title, "Among Dead Kings and Gods"- I find myself thinking of these the titles Kapus has chosen - and wondering just what they mean, why he selected them. What dead kings? What gods? What did you think when you read this title?
Herodotus and Kapuscinski are both writing about two Iranian kings or should I say, Persians... Darius and the Shah of Iran . I imagine that Kapuscinski had a different opinion regarding the Shah than we do... Was the Shah a king? How's your knowledge of history? Maybe we can learn something together here today...what do you remember of the Shah of Iran?
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Joan, Wikipaedia says that Shah means king. It's actually a shortening of Shahanshah which means king of kings.
Glad you motivated me to look it up, because I always thought it was a variation of Caesar as are Tzar and Kaiser. (Maybe I should look them up, too, before I state that with certainty.)
Rich
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Very interesting, Rich! I'm trying to deduce from Kapuscinski's book which period he is wrting about - the WWII years...or closer to the overthrow in the late 70's...
I found this -
Mohammad Reza came to power during World War II after an Anglo-Soviet invasion forced the abdication of his father Reza Shah. During Mohammad Reza's reign, the Iranian oil industry was briefly nationalized under Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh before a US-backed coup d'état overturned the regime and brought back foreign oil firms, and Iran marked the anniversary of 2,500 years of continuous monarchy since the founding of the Persian Empire by Cyrus the Great
Sooo, the US backed his overthrow and supported the takeover by the Ayatollah Khomeini? Wonder what Kapuscinski thought of this...
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Yes, JOANP, the tribal peoples would know little or nothing of languages in other
parts of the country. Their contact is limited. The city dwellers, tho', would be
speaking the languages prominent there. They would need to, in order to do business
and make an income.
Is it perhaps a hopeful sign that such things as skinning one's enemies now
horrify us, where before they were accepted practices? It would be nice to think
such things could never happen today, but it has not been that long since we
discovered that a Nazi woman used human skin to make her lampshades.
'Shah of Iran' brings to my mind the splendors of the 'Peacock Throne' and the
fabulous wealth of the Shah. As he was considered an ally, I never heard of any
of the problems of his country until after he was deposed, and I still know very
little of what it was actually like.
Does it seem to you, as it does to me, that splendor and great displays of wealth
are more typically Eastern than Western? We disapprove of ostentatious displays of
wealth, and those who enjoy making them seem to be generally regarded as somewhat
vulgar. This kind of mindset is bound to affect how we see these early Eastern
rulers, don't you think. It might be well to consider that their own people may
have been proud of such demonstrations of wealth and power.
I can't help feeling sad that 2500 years of a colorful monarchy should have come to
an end because we wanted access to their oil.
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I'm remembering this was the time when Anwar Sadat was all over the press and Egypt was a close friend To Iran - and the revolution in Iran was more than about Oil as I remember - it was like their early Arab Spring and just like Egypt now seems to be on the brink of using Sharia law that has been the next step for many an Arab nation that over throws the long standing monarchy.
I am remembering during the Iraq war the reporters during the early months bringing up how we were now against Iran and for Iraq the very enemy to Iran that we helped Iran defeat - I guess in that part of the world everything can be seen through the eyes of oil. As I remember this was all taking place in the late 70s and involved the hostage taking that Reagen was able to release when the Iranians would not work with Carter. We were in the midst of the USSR as our arch enemy and part of all this with Iran was because the Shaw was using tactics similar to USSR with secret police to control and he had some kind of gulag but I no longer remember where. I believe our concern was he would side with USSR and like several of our wars we were trying to keep the Iron Curtain from expanding.
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Just a couple of small observations.
I appreciate it when an author respects his readers. When Kapus was in the Congo he briefly referred to the area as Heart of Darkness country. He assumed that his readers understand that he was referring to the novel by Joseph Conrad, and have read it. By using those three words, by referencing a book title, he didn't need to say any more to convey to us how he felt to be there.
What is totally foreign to me is the fear that welled up in him when two policemen were approaching him on the street in the Congo. Being brought up in, and having spent my entire life residing in the United States, my emotion when seeing policemen on the street is one of a feeling of enhanced safety and security. I know it's not that way in many third world countries, but why?
Rich
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Just "Googled" Joseph Conrad and learned that he, also, was a Pole.
From Wikipaedia:
Joseph Conrad (born Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski;[1]:11-12 3 December 1857 – 3 August 1924) was a Polish author who wrote in English after settling in England. He was granted British nationality in 1886, but always considered himself a Pole.[note 1]
Interesting, no?
Rich
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Yes, that is interesting, Rich!
Lately, ever since Olle posted, I've been looking at Kapuscinski's Polish background - trying to see the events he describes through his eyes, considering his background. Before that, I'd been thinking of Kapuscinski in terms of the WEST - He does seem to have a fear of those in authority - which as you say, is difficult for an American to understand. Sometimes he seems almost childlike in the way he trusts strangers...I'm thinking of the person who guided him to the top of the minaret and robbed him of his wallet. I was surprised at this naivete. He could have been killed. But it's the fear of those in authority, the fear that they might deport him...or worse.
Yesterday, after reading your posts, I googled Poland and Tehran - because I felt we were considering the Shah and the Ayatollah from an American viewpoint... Here's something I found interesting...
"After the division of Poland by Germany and Russia in September 1939, Stalin ordered the deportation of supposedly anti-Soviet elements to labour camps across the Soviet Union.
Estimates of numbers of the deported range between 330,000 and over 1 million.
However, when Hitler attacked his Soviet ally in 1941 during Operation Barbarossa, Stalin had to turn to Great Britain – and by default its Polish ally – for support.
An amnesty was declared, and General Wladyslaw Anders, one of the thousands of Polish internees in the Soviet Union, was allowed to raise an army from among the prisoners.
The so-called Polish Second Corps journeyed to Iran, where it regrouped and joined the fight against the Nazis, as part of the British 8th Army.
Among the 120,000 that made it to Iran were about 43,000 civilians, including 15,000 children"
The Polish have first hand knowledge of Iran. Kapuscinski is trusting of the people, maybe some are friends/relatives - but fears the authorities. http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/114326,Polish-delegation-commemorates-wartime-exodus-to-Iran=
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I admit to having a bit of trouble...confusing time lines and places. Sometimes he's in Tehran, in Ethiopia, or the Congo...sometimes it's 1960 and then he jumps ahead to 1979. Does this confuse anyone else?
When he skipped ahead to the overthrow of the Shah and Khomeini's takeover, I was startled at the similarity of this man to the Persian kings we've been reading about - those described by Herodotus...
"Khomeini has been criticized for these acts and for human rights violations of Iranians; he has been accused of pursuing a mass campaign of torture, rape, and execution against political opponents as well as their families, close friends, and anyone who was accused of insufficient Islamic behavior (including Bahai's and Jews), resulting in the deaths of thousands of men, women, and children, who were usually tried in secret kangaroo courts run by hard line clerics, as well as in 1988, when he ordered the execution of 30,000 political prisoners."
I'm wondering if the Polish Press had Kapuscinski in Tehran at this time... It seems wherever there is rebellion, fighting, danger, they dispatch Kapus. We don't know much about him, do we? Did he have a wife and family back in Poland, waiting for word from him?
Can't you see Kapuscinski and Herodotus coming closer together in their reporting - and their desire to learn how such tyrants get control over so many to carry out these horrendous acts.
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Interesting, JoanP. I didn't know about the Iran/Pole connections. I was checking on a time line for his trips. He was in India in 1956, and in China and Japan in 1957, so he was not in those countries for very long. He first visited Africa during the winter of 1959-60, visiting not Egypt, but the West African countries of Niger, Ghana and Benin. He married a doctor in 1953; his daughter was born in 1953.
Writing in the Oct 1, 2007 issue of The Nation, Author Andrew Rice wrote of K thusly: "Ultimately, Kapuściński sees the world as composed of tribes, and for all his travels among them, he doesn't believe that they can ever really communicate with one another" We can see some of that in K's narrative, can't we? In the short time that K had in India and China, this was certainly the case. But what of the long term? Things still do get lost in translation don't they?
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"What is totally foreign to me is the fear that welled up in him when two policemen were approaching him on the street in the Congo."
This told me more about his life in Poland than anything else he had written. Imagine growing up and living with that fear. I thought when I read it that that was his way of indirectly criticizing his country without appearing to do so: only someone who lived in an oppressive society would react so.
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Wow the Polish activity in the world that we did not hear about - the only thing I can remember after WWII was the Solidarity rebellion becoming independent of Russia when Wałęsa received the Noble but that was later than all this - Just had no idea about the Polish connection -
JoanP I am confused are you saying Hitler asked Great Britain for help - was this before or after WWII
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Barbara...from the link provided here earlier yesterday:
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/114326,Polish-delegation-commemorates-wartime-exodus-to-Iran=
"A Polish delegation is taking part in commemorations in Tehran on Friday, marking the wartime exodus of some 120,000 Poles to Iran seventy years ago after being freed from Soviet captivity.
Today's tributes will take place at the Polish cemetery of Dulab, where some 1892 Poles were laid to rest, largely owing to health problems caused by the period in Soviet labour camps.
All in all, over 2900 Poles died in Iran after the journey from the Soviet Union.
“Had it not been for the huge help given by the Iranian people, many more Poles would probably have died,” said Dr Jan Ciechanowski, leader of the Polish delegation, in an interview with Polish Radio.
“Therefore we must thank the Iranian people for the support and care they showed, which helped thousands of Poles who had found themselves in a tragic situation.
“Remembrance of this is our duty,” he stressed.
Ciechanowski, who is head of the state-backed Office for Combatants and Victims of Oppression, noted that the trip is also an opportunity to pay tribute to the entire 120,000 Poles who came to Iran seventy years ago.
After the division of Poland by Germany and Russia in September 1939, Stalin ordered the deportation of supposedly anti-Soviet elements to labour camps across the Soviet Union.
Estimates of numbers of the deported range between 330,000 and over 1 million.
However, when Hitler attacked his Soviet ally in 1941 during Operation Barbarossa, Stalin had to turn to Great Britain – and by default its Polish ally – for support.
An amnesty was declared, and General Wladyslaw Anders, one of the thousands of Polish internees in the Soviet Union, was allowed to raise an army from among the prisoners.
The so-called Polish Second Corps journeyed to Iran, where it regrouped and joined the fight against the Nazis, as part of the British 8th Army.
Among the 120,000 that made it to Iran were about 43,000 civilians, including 15,000 children. "
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Fry, thank you so much for providing more information on Kapuscinski. So he was married...with a baby daughter when his editor first sent him "across the border" to India in the mid 50's! Didn't you get the feeling that he was unattached, up for any assignment, even to dangerous places in the middle of great conflict? He seems happiest in Africa. I'm getting the impression that he becomes closer to Herodotus here. You don't see him in Egypt on the time line you are looking at? I'm really surprised at that. Herodotus is captivated with Egypt - you'd think that Kapuscinski would be too. Maybe the Polish Press was not interested in sending him there - not newsworthy enough? ;)
"Ultimately, Kapuściński sees the world as composed of tribes, and for all his travels among them, he doesn't believe that they can ever really communicate with one another"
Hmm...without COMMUNICATION, Kapuscinski seems to offer little hope for peace in the world - as he and Herodotus search to find the causes of war...
Will History keep repeating itself?
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(http://m3.i.pbase.com/o6/59/643459/1/71438243.nlf8UKOq.IMG_8540r.jpg)
"But after reading about Persepolis, I wish I could have stood there in the dawn with JK, and see and feel the beauty of something so impressive and still so immensely beautiful." Olle
Where's Olle? Hopefully his computer isn't acting up again. I remembered the earlier comment of his when reading about the ruins of Persepolis.a
Kapuscinski gets us thinking though, about the human suffering involved. He asks: "Could these wonders have come into being without that suffering?"
And seems to conclude with this thought - "And the only thing that never changes is beauty itself and the need for it that dwells within us."
How did you understand his reaction as he wonders how such a cruel, heartless man like Darius could be capable of creating something as beautiful as Persepolis, "this city of dead kings and forgotten gods." Is he saying the most beautiful monuments to the past were built on the backs of slaves - and aren't we fortunate to have them to marvel at today?
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JoanP, I got the impression that K was in Egypt at some point later, but not early on.
I am getting the impression that many of his reporter/author colleagues have a negative view of K as someone who tells half-truths and indulges in self-puffery. He conveys a good feel and sympathy for of the downtrodden and oppressed, but he gets details wrong (deliberate or otherwise?). The Andrew Rice I quoted earlier doesn't seem to like him at all. He considers this book we are now reading a "...veiled apologia for his own failings as a reporter." So, are all these critics being overly critical, or, are they on to something. Here is a review of several of his books, but not this one, in case you are interested. http://www.richardwebster.net/johnryle.html I think these would actually be better reading in the wrap up after we are done, but I am likely to forget it by then. Sigh!
Even so, I am enjoying the book. Mostly what I see in his writing are gaps in detail, like the narrative is not fully fleshed out.
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RICH, JOANK, JOANP, & FRYBABE: All of you have certainly been fleshing out
the backgrounds for me. So much information that clarifies what has been
happening,..and why. My thanks to you all.
Remember where K said, "I am by nature quite credulous, to the point even of regarding suspicions not as a manifestation of reason but as a character flaw." Do you think his experience at the railless minaret changed that? I know I have always gone on the assumption that people are good people until they prove differently. But I would have that a professional reporter/journalist would be less trusting.
Herodutus writes of the Babylonian rebellion against a new king, Darius. K quotes him as saying, "they had spent the whole troubled period of the Magus' rule...getting ready for a siege, and somehow nobody had noticed that they were doing so." Well, I can see how that could happen. I am finding it very hard, tho', to believe Herodotus story that the rebels mudered all the women, with the exception of their mothers and one woman of their choosing (can't leave the men without a bedmate!), in order to husband their resources. Their daughters, even?@! This sounds to me more like the sort of 'monsters' propaganda that one often sees about the enemy in times of war. Then, reading the posts above on
the horrors perpetrated centuries later by the Ayatollah, I have to wonder if it Herodotus'
reports was also true.
The account of the Scythian war I find more believable. More of this seems to be 'eye-witness' and less 'I was told'. I looked up Scythians and found this article. There is a second page which includes a beautiful example of the "beautiful metal artifacts" they left.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/530361/Scythian/530361yblinks/Year-in-Review-Links
Also, I was quite surprised to learn that these people were originally of Iranian stock. Their battle strategy was brilliant; lead them in a merry chase all over the country, into regions where they could not forage, and chip away at their forces piecemeal in true guerrilla style. Darius, being brighter than some later power greedy conquerors, eventually retreated. The man was power-hungry and greedy,..but not stupid.
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K relates on p158 the Herodotus' account of beginnings of Greco-Persian war. At the end of Scene 2, Darius has one of his servants say at each meal "Master, remember the Athenians." It immediately brought to mind Cato instigating war with Carthage every chance he got. He incorporated "Carthago delenda est" (Carthage must be destroyed) into many of his speeches.
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The book is growing on me, but it definitly has me wanting to know more. More about the author, and more about his other wrtings. And of course, more about Herodotus. Thanks, ever so much, Frybabe for the link to the TLS review in your post. That fills many blanks.
Kapuscinski says surprisingly little in our book about his vast experience and his extensive travels. I feel that he is deliberately restraining himself in that area for fear of upstaging Herodotus. I'm enjoying his intense interest in Herodotus and his amazing 'history'.
'Monsieur, avez vous une cigarette, sil-vous-plait?'
What a bizarre ending to the tale of the two policemen. Such a build-up to a case and cause for fear ending with such politeness.
But isn't it a day of history in Washington? What an impressive ceremony. I did get a chuckle of the poet's vision of America coming to their windows to greet the new day...with a yawn!!!
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Thanks JoanP for clearing that up for me - I do not know If I misread or what but your post made the difference. - Thanks also for sharing that great photo of ancient Persepolis
I had no clue this connection between Iran and Poland - we need a few reporters to read this book to connect the historical dots that may allow them to report from a deeper understanding rather than riling up their audience with only part of a story.
There is that new popular novel folks are buying about a mother and son reading all these books as she nears the end of her life - looks like rather than being pointed because of end of life this book certainly has encouraged more and more reading that is filling our shelves -
Back outside before the sun sets - trees were trimmed that were too close over the roof and now we, my son and I are cutting and stacking the limbs and piling the smaller branches - live oak so filled with leaves - into his truck and what does not fit we are piling in the back where the deer like to spend time until his next trip. I will sleep tonight...
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"But isn't it a day of history in Washington?"
I must confess all those pictures of Washington DC made me homesick. I wouldn't have grown up in any other city. It's a beautiful city to live in (except for the weather, which is awful). And being surrounded by historical buildings, events, and people adds something to life I miss. I think it makes you more aware of history.
Although, I must confess that the last inaugeration I attended in person was Truman's. I was in the White house rose garden watching as then President Clinton greeted Nelson Mandela for the first time as a head of state. And in college, we used to rent canoes and watch the Capitol Fourth from the river. And riding to work every day past the Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials, seeing the Capitol and Washington memorial while going to lunch: you stop noticing them, but one day you look up and there they are. Oh!
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Such memories, JoanK! A good thing the inaugural was yesterday,wasn't it? - those marching bands and dancing girls wouldn't have been able to stand this morning's temperatures in those scanty costumes ...a few minutes ago I noticed the temp. was 21 degrees...and I heard it's not supposed to reach the freezing point for the next five days...Need to bundle up for the first time this winter this morning!
Fry - an interesting link and comments you posted yesterday..."I am getting the impression that many of his reporter/author colleagues have a negative view of K as someone who tells half-truths" - "he gets details wrong (deliberate or otherwise?)". Is it a coincidence that the same has been said of Herodotus - some have called him "Father of Liars" for this very same reason?
I read through the link you provided - http://www.richardwebster.net/johnryle.html - and agree that some of Kapuscinski's other novels would have been good choices...BUT. I confess that the real attraction to Travels with Herodotus - was the chance to delve into Herodotus' Histories and learn something about this man whose name was the only thing I knew about him before we began.
From the same article, I was also interested to read -
"IN A CAREER extending over four decades, Ryszard Kapuściński has published book-length accounts of his homeland, Poland, of travels in Iran and the former Soviet Union, and a collection of reportage from third-world countries including Honduras, El Salvador, Chile and Bolivia. His principal subject, however, from early in his working life, has been Africa."
I think it was in Africa where his technique becomes more like that of Herodotus. Without translators, without access to printed matter, Kapuscinski relies on more primitive methods of reporting...observation. Perhaps this is the reason both men have been accused of "telling half truths" and "getting details wrong". Isn't it a matter of whom the reporter is observing - getting those details from? Sometimes I think these details are the only way to arrive at truth. Like photographs. Pictures don't lie. Am I being too defensive of Kapus. methods of reporting?
We're told in the chapter, Greek Techiniques that while in Africa, "Kapuscinski concentrates not so much on the wars, but on Herodotus' technique, to learn the art of reporting."[/b] What does Kapuscinski borrow from him? Do you see him changing?
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Greeting the dawn does appear with surprising frequency in the religion of
man peoples, tho'. An Easter 'Sunrise Service' is very popular here; people
seem to find it meanngful and emotional. 'The dawn of a new day', peaceful
and hopeful. Native aboriginal tribes lifting a new born baby toward the sky
at dawn, introducing the baby, presumably, to a symbol of their god. Or
perhaps introducing the baby to light and life.
The question of the accuracy of both Herodotus and K is very hard to determine,
or perhaps it would be better to say the source or cause of inaccuracies is hard to
pinpoint. Remember when K wrote, "I am by nature quite credulous.."? It is a
surprisingly frank admission from a reporter, and may be the key to the problem.
Perhaps Herodotus was also prepared to believe most anything someone told him?
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Joan P Just noticed your included photo of Persepolis and Googled more for myself. A beautiful place built around 500BCE. I hope some day to see it in person.
Somehow the images remind me of a line once written about the ancient city of Petrus: "A rose-red city half as old as time." I forget who wrote those words.
Being "half as old as time," myself, the chances are getting slimmer that I'll get to see either city.
Rich
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It is kind of fantastic to read all witty comments about JK and Herodotus. It seems that we find different capacities in both protagonists and yet they merge into one. I won't believe that neither of them are conspirators in the meaning of showing off themselves.
Truth or lies? What ever. In the long run it is a very interesting story and we can never really believe everything edited.
An old saying goes "Truth is in the eye of the beholder" so it is up to us to accept it or not. Not even Herodotus could believe everything, thus his saying "as I've learned/heard".
About Africa, you can easily say that Europe has much to be ashamed of. The worst thing is that we are still going on. And from the East, China is coming to "help" poor African nations. "Money makes the world go round."
olle
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"Truth is in the eye of the beholder" so it is up to us to accept it or not." Olle
Oh, I agree, Olle. When in Africa during the revolution, Kapucinski sees to have no choice but to write about what he sees. No other sources to check and verify. He's turning into Herodotus in his reporting.
Babi...It seems Kapus could have hung out at Doctor Ranke's and read his books as he waits for a means of escape. (He's not able to communicate with his news agency, so he has no press assignment. - He even thinks they've forgotten he's here. OR, he can pick up cues from Herodotus...and interact with the tribes that pass through, "drifting and swaying" from one place to another. He begins to write down what he sees - and what they are able to communicate to him. I can see where he might be getting a skewed version of the revolt...but he seems to be in the same boat with Herodotus, doesn't he?
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Rich - thanks for mentioning that poem... I found it for you - the lines you remember are quoted more than the rest of the poem to describe the city of Petra...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/Al_Khazneh.jpg/200px-Al_Khazneh.jpg)
Petra is an Arabian historical and archaeological city in the Jordanian governorate of Ma'an, that is famous for its rock-cut architecture and water conduit system.
Petra
by John William Burgon (1845)
"It seems no work of Man's creative hand,
By labor wrought as wavering fancy planned;
But from the rock as if by magic grown,
Eternal, silent, beautiful, alone!
Not virgin-white like that old Doric shrine,
Where erst Athena held her rites divine;
Not saintly-grey, like many a minster fane,
That crowns the hill and consecrates the plain;
But rose-red as if the blush of dawn,
That first beheld them were not yet withdrawn;
The hues of youth upon a brow of woe,
Which Man deemed old two thousand years ago.
Match me such marvel save in Eastern clime,
A rose-red city half as old as time. "
I'm not sure I'll ever look at these breathtaking achievements of the past without remembering and picturing the torture, the whips - as slaves moved rock to create the "beauty" we so admire today. I'm glad they survived, but I think it's important to remember at what cost.
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I can't imagine anything more dazzling than the Washington Memorial catching the first rays of the sun, just as the first part of the U.S.A. to greet the rising sun is Mt. Washington in New Hampshire. So I have heard, as Herodotus would say.
Kapuscinski finds his favorite historian both informative and provocative. K has much to say, at the end of his book, about the nature of history, how it is fashioned and refashioned, lived and relived in a world without boundarys. By those with open and imaginative minds.
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I like the quote that Ollie shared - "Truth is in the eye of the beholder" because over and over we are offered history and even current reporting from the perspective of who is doing the writing and for sure we have realized history is told through the eyes of the victors often adding details and glory that stretch truth - condemning the loosers based on the victors views of why the looser was fighting.
I see the stories in The Histories as the impressions of Herodotus and so it could be that Kapuscinski is not sharing specific facts as much as his impressions. When Kapuscinski first flies over the Nile he never mentions but isn't that about the time the huge Aswan Dam was started?
I wonder if the practice of communing with the gods or using various means like throwing feathers, or rocks or ruins to learn your fate is believing in predestination or simply trying to ally fears by appealing to a power they see evidenced in nature that makes them believe in a great power of the gods?
I guess I am wondering if predestination is another of those words that come from our cultural religion just as those who did not believe in the Trinity were called Heretics. I am thinking particularly of Taoism which divines the course of life with I Ching. When it comes down to it, praying would be communing with God requesting wisdom and alteration of the future for our benefit - If we believe we must make a special invocation to alter the future is that our assuming the future is set - do we basically believe in predestination?
One thing I remember reading a few years ago that stayed with me is that the Greek gods were fashioned after human beings where as, the one god of Jews and Christians has none of the human foibles of the Greek gods. And yet, we worry if we are pleasing or displeasing this God and ask for this God's assistance to alter the future. Maybe we are all the same simply with different names for different behavior.
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I think with his Congo experience we start to see a more accomplished, more comfortable traveler. He doesn't seem to be so upset about not being able to speak the language (possibly because a lot of Africans also spoke French?). What a nasty war and aftermath to be in the middle of, yet he seems more at ease there than in China or India where I could almost feel his self-conscious panic.
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Joan p. Thanks for the fill-in of the Petrus information. So it was William Burgon who wrote those words.
Different subject: Herodotus: "I have no idea why the earth - which is, after all, single - has three separate names (each of which is the name of a woman)..."
Why is the earth always feminine in name? Even in English we refer to her as "Mother Earth." Is it because life springs from the earth? Why do we assign gender to things? Why do Germans swear allegiance to the fatherland, and Russians go to war to defend the motherland?
I ask these questions rhetorically; no one need necessarily answer, and these questions will not be on the final exam.
Rich
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I thought it was more about German Fatherland political party before WWII - Since WWII Germans no longer refer to their nation as the Fatherland, which makes me think it was a political definition more than coming from an ancient concept of birth and rebirth observed in nature. - I do know that the word Germany is a masculine noun - as we have Uncle Sam but we do not make a big deal in our language if a noun is masculine or feminine - wonder if that is part of the difference in how language refers to motherland or fatherland as either a feminine or masculine noun - Come to think of it there is father time
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I had missed the bit where K is unable to communicate with his news
agency, JOANK. It's quite reasonable to suppose that he would want to at least write down what he sees. And of course, what he is told would depend on which side the speaker is on. 'Skewed', no doubt, but all he's got. Thanks for clarifying that for me.
We can't really see very far into our future, obviously. So we wouldn't be asking for 'alteration' of it except with immediate circumstances...like high risk scheduled surgery or serious illness. Even then, what we are really asking for is a good outcome.
I quit telling God what I wanted him to do long ago, BARB. I figured out, clever me, that He knows the situation far better than I do, knows what would be best for me...which I may not....and all-in-all, really doesn't need any advice from me. It is so much simpler, and more reasonable, to simply place it all in His hands and leave it there. Oh, and say 'Thank You!' for every good thing that happens. A really restful approach to life, I find. :)
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"I think with his Congo experience we start to see a more accomplished, more comfortable traveler. He doesn't seem to be so upset about not being able to speak the language" Frybabe
Do you think this is because Kapus is learning Herodotus' technique - imitating him, he finds he is able to communicate and understand more than through language. While holed up at Dr. Ranke's place in the summer of 1960, he finds himself among many fugitives who have no common language. He writes that during this time of tribal strife, everyone is a fugitive.
At the same time he reads Herodotus oral communication...
"Not only words matter, but more frequently, what is communicated wordlessly- facial expressions, hand gestures, body movement... Direct contact, no only listening to what they say, but watching how they say it, how they act as they speak."
It seems that it is here in the Congo that Kapuscinski learns this lesson from Herodotus and begins to understand how to communicate, even though he doesn't understand the words being used.
"No problem" - the only two words K and his driver had in common. I really got a kick out of their exchanges.
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I think I'm going to express a bit of heresy concerning our book discussions here on SeniorLearn while quoting Kapuscinski's thoughts on communicating, using his exchanges with Negusi as an example. Would love to hear your reaction to what he has written!
"There are many methods of conversation. Everything speaks:the expression of the face and eyes, the gestures of the hand and the movements of the body, the vibrations which the latter send out, his clothing and the way it is worn...dozens of other transmitters, amplifiers and mufflers..."
OK, here's the part that really got me thinking-
"Technology, which reduces human exchange to an electronic signal, impoverishes and mutes the nonverbal language with which, when we are together in close proximity, we continuually and unconsciously communicate. This unspoken gesture is more sincere and genuine than the spoken or written one..."
What does this say of our online communication? Are face-to-face book clubs a better means of communicating ideas? I'd really like to hear what you have to say about communicating on the Internet in the light of what Kapuscinski has found in a lifetime of communicating with others...
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Joan P. I, too, liked the exchange between Kapus and his driver. A great deal of information got exchanged using just the words "problem" or "no problem."
I'm surprised that nowhere does Kapus use the words "body language," although he goes to great lengths describing what we know as simply body language. I think it may be due to English not being his strongest asset, especially its colloquialisms. He does make reference to what he calls the Anglophone's useage of the words "personal chemistry," but that doesn't hit as close to the mark as "body language."
But, I have to remember that he is writing in Polish, and there likely is no two-word equivalent.
Rich
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Joan, To your other comment and question:
"Technology, which reduces human exchange to an electronic signal, impoverishes and mutes the nonverbal language with which, when we are together in close proximity, we continuually and unconsciously communicate. This unspoken gesture is more sincere and genuine than the spoken or written one..."
I find electronic communication more frustrating and challenging than face-to-face verbal conversation. What you can say with a smile and a wink in person, probably will be misconstrued in an e-mail.
I know that I am often misunderstood in electronic communication. I guess that speaks to my skill (or lack thereof) with words.
Rich
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Yes, Rich and JoanP my experience is similar - not sure if it is the words chosen so much as sarcasm irony humor all have a style that some write naturally but others have to learn - not taking more than required classes in English and no Writing classes these are skills I only realize after the fact they are not easy to pull off. I am also aware we read in our own voice so that we can easily be reading, even aloud, differently than the speakers voice.
However, I must say traveling and using body language can also be a landmine - some cultures use their bodies differently - I realized that if I didn't have at least some high school French I would have been at a loss because the use of body language, in especially Paris made me think every one was annoyed or quarreling with each other.
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I'm reading some of K's quotes from Herodotus on his investigations 1) talking about winged snakes and the bones he saw when he went to investigate (p181), and 2) the Neurians reputed ability to change into wolves (p182).
I am going to have to find the info on the flying snake bones to see the rest of the passage. I'd love to know what he thought. If so, I wonder what today's fossil hunters might have made of it. As far as the Neurians are concerned, it appears that the Werewolf mythology is older that I thought. Ah, but I forgot about Zeus turning Lycaon into a wolf. Herodotus believes the general area where the Neurians were located points toward the today's Ukraine and Belarus.
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Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-18 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 19-25 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 26 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 26-31
"Time Vanishes" - "We Stand in Darkness"
Time Vanishes
1. Kapucinski describes Herodotus' his methods - not simply recording a history of dynasties and kings but the life of simple people, religious beliefs, disasters. Does this method seem to work for Kapuscinski?
2. "One must read Herodotus' book, and every great book repeatedly - each reading reveals another layer." Do you agree with the importance of rereading? Ah, but do you do it?
The Desert and the Sea p.221
3. What convinced Kapuscinski to put aside The Histories to fly to Algiers, without knowing the ambassador's reason for sending him, and without notifying his superiors at the Press Agency? What does this say about Kapuscinski's priorities? Was he the first to break the news of the military coup in Algiers?
4. How did this coup represent the two great conflicts of the contemporary world, between France and the colony of Algeria, between Islamic fundamentalism and modernity? Are these the same struggles we are reading about in today's news?
Black is Beautiful
5. Cheih Anta Diop, the Sengalese Historian in the 50's maintained European and Western culture had beginnings in Africa. Was he the first to point to Herodotus, who had argued many elements of Greek culture came from Egypt and Libya. What effect did Richard Wright's Black Power have on this theory when he concluded he concluded on his trip to Ghana that they were African, he, American - total strangers, separated by language barrier, nothing in common. Do you remember this?
6. "From the island of Goree, the mass abduction of as many as 20 million slaves depopulated the continent." -Egyptian culture had fascinated Herodotus. Kapuscinski wonders if Herodotus had slaves. Why?
Scenes of Passion and Prudence
7. Did the final sentence in the Histories indicate that the Persian threat is still alive and well today?
Herodotus' Discovery
8. According to Kapuscinski, what are the traits of a good reporter? How does he compare himself to Herodotus? Does Kapuscinski seem to have the same passion and drive?
9. What does Kapuscinski regard as Herodotus' most important discovery?
We Stand in Darkness, Surrounded by Light
10. What draws Herodotus to the road, away from home? Where is his home? Kapuscinski describes such a reporter like Herodotus as unhappy and lonely, a man who does not grow attached to anything." Is Kapuscinski describing himself? Read more about Kapuscinski's home life and wife in Warsaw (http://www.sikhchic.com/people/the_voice_of_a_free_man_ryszard_kapu_ci_ski)
Finally, please share your observations on the many points made in the last chapter of the book.
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Mmm- there must be some advantages to participation in online book discussion as difficult as it is to communicate like this - or we wouldn't be here..
Barb, do you think those little emoticons were purposely put above the reply box - a way to express - facial expressions, "body language"? :D :( >:(
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Interesting thoughts in all your posts. But of course reflecting on all the strange 'history' we're getting would provoke koleidascopic conclusions.
Babi, I'm impressed by your answer to dealing with the future. Isn't it pathetic to read about the absolute king of a vast empire frightened by his unruly mind. Perplexed by his dreams. Frightened by the phantoms in his head. Himself the destiny of millions, but uncertain of his own.
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I was talking to my financial adviser this afternoon, when I realized he and our author must have been compatriots. Sure enough. What could he tell me about Kapuscinski? He got carried away in his enthusiasm. For many years K's books just flew off the shelf as soon as they came out. His readers really felt they were getting the whole story on the big, wide world out there. 'Kapus', he told me, means cabbage. The whole name suggests cabbage-related. It seems there is a very interesting life we're hearing about.
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problem/no problem....I never realized how meanigful they can be, depending on the circumstances.
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emoticons can work however, among those I know and even those I newly meet that live around here - we do a lot of sincere sounding deadpan dialog when we are pulling someones leg - if you show a wink or something then the message is lost as if a joke but if left as a deadpan reaction it takes awhile - sometime weeks and they get it - I am so used to talking that way among friends and acquaintances and just cannot put it in writing - most folks reading see it as a serious statement and then when trying to share something I feel like my view requires all sorts of back up and deeper information so it gets verbose - one of these days I need to get serious about taking a writing class.
I have a friend who did make some change in her writing style by hand copying a couple of books by two authors whose work she admires - she said she learned a lot.
With all Kapuscinski's retelling of ancient history and sharing what he sees and hears during his travels this book is reminding more of a memoir as he compares and we see connections to life in Poland.
I am wondering - never did take Greek but are The Histories the only account we have of life or is it all piecemeal from Homer to those who relate the various wars. Was it The Histories that guided the early archaeologists? Trying to figure out how Herodotus fits into giving us a picture of these ancients.
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One hears of electronic devices that will read the 'chemistry' of people in ones vicinity. Talk about reading others and finding affinity!
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Ok, will give Technology a chance to catch up, Jonathan...to figure out my chemistry - that makes me uncomfortable...don't quite know why. :D
Barbara - I don't have an answer to your question - understood that Herodotus was the first to record more than dates and dynasties, was more interested in the people. They were the ones he chatted with around the fire and then wrote about in hIs Histories He did write about the kings, yes...but always included the people these kings cruelly treated.
By the way, did it seem that the sadistic and cruel kings were ALL from the East? That was the impression I came away with. Did I overlook others from the West?
If Herodotus was the first...who else do we know of? Thucydides comes to mind. Here's a link that compares the two..
http://www.studentsfriend.com/
The "Father of Scientific History" - It seems Thucydides recorded only details he could verify...events that happened during his lifetime...
"Herodotus explored centuries of contacts between Ancient Greece and the Persian Empire, culminating in the Persian Wars of the early 5th century BC.".
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Fascinating question, JOANP. So much is communicated by the 'nonverbal' body
language. More, I think, than most of us realize. Consider how much we can
tell about a person from the moment they walk into a room, before a word is
said. In our book discussions here, I think we have a group of people who are
well able to express their feelings as well as their thoughts. In modern 'texting'
however, most of that is lost. The 'communication' is incomplete and could be
wholly misunderstood.
On Q. #4, I understood K to mean he was more "absorbed" in Herodotus' history
than in the events around him, possibly because he was finding so little opportunity
to communicate the current events to his office. K is assigned to the Congo during
the chaotic period when the Belgians were leaving, and civil war was breaking out
everywhere over who was going to be in power next. It was a dangerous time, and K
has the good sense to be scared.
Even more, tho', he is perceiving "a huge swath of world history, which already set us against one another many centuries ago." He sees the current events as the result of generations of slave trade and cruelty, passed on through tribal stories. The people of the Congo identify very closely with their tribes, and the strongest tribes challenge one another for control of their future.
When you get right down to it, I believe K is at heart more of an historian than
a reporter. I see this comment as confirmation of that impression: "I feel anger and
helplessness--by turns familiar states of mind in this line of work-- in which so
much time is given over to fruitless waiting for a way to communicate with one's country
and with the world."
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Babi, I'll bet Kapuscinski is weary of war and rebellion in the world...it should have been over centuries ago. Would have been, if men had learned from what Herodotus had set down - "Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished. This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny."
History DOES repeat itself, doesn't it?
In the beginning, Herodotus set out to find the reasons man goes to war. So what did he learn? His Histories end with the last four books describing the final conflicts at the place where Greece and Persia meet - "the very omphalos of the world. I had to look up that word. Weren't you struck by the fact that East and West is at it again in this exact same area? I was.
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Omphalos. Ha! Now I feel better. I had to look it up, too.
Now, the trick is to figure out a way to work the word into polite dinner conversation.
Rich
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;) I guess you will need this to wear to that dinner - and to make it really work it appears you need two sitting eagles, one for each shoulder
(http://www.utexas.edu/courses/introtogreece/lect16/dOmphalosDelphi.jpg)
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Okay, I'll bite. What is it? The decoration looks like a representation of stringed beads.
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It would be a bit difficult, RICH. Omphalos refers to the navel, so unless you just recently
had a birth in the family, and wanted to impress the dinner guests with your erudition,
it is hard to work into a conversation. The use of the word to describe that area where
Greece and Persia meet suggests that they considered it the 'birthplace' of their civilization.
I assume the picture BARB posted is one of the religous emblems called 'omphalos'.
Somewhat egg-like, isn't it?
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There is a theory, popular among creationists (As opposed to evolutionists) called the Omphalos Hypothesis. Subscribers to this hypothesis believe that God created the earth 6000 years ago, but He took pains to make it look much older. The Omphalos Hypothesis supposedly explains why the earth is stratified in layers and trees have rings, and most importantly, why Adam and Eve would have navels. Get the connection to the word omphalos?
The above information was obtained from Wikipaedia, I was not aware of the Omphalos Hypothesis before this morning.
Rich
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I can't believe that God would try to deceive us. Omp Hyp puts to much magic into the universe. Might as well go along with the Hindu philosophy that has all the world a mirage. Except for the Self. Which in reality is the most doubtful of all.
Do you really think, JoanP, that Kapuscinski might get weary of war and rebellion? Better make it a small bet. After all reporting the action was his living. And doing that he was, as Babi suggests, 'more of an historian than a reporter. He must have had an exciting time telling the folks back home of the life beyond their borders. I managed to get a hold of his SHAH OF SHAHS. It's a well told tale of the Iranian revolution. It brought back a lot of memories of the cruel Shah trying to Westernize his country, and sent packing for his trouble and being replaced by the Ayatollah. Don't we all remember how the Shah wandered the world, with no one willing to take him in? Naturally Kapuscinski adds a lot of current and historical politics into his story.
Many reasons for war. Ambition is only one. The future looks bright, if the post in the Womens' Issue forum is correct. The poster suggests that women too are out for glory and all the perks to be found in battle.
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There is so many myths in different cultures as to the center of the earth or the beginning of time or the location of the Garden of Paradise - are we sitting on a turtle or a blink of an eye - At the heart of the Omphalos is a Western approach to a oneness which, for want of a better explanation, is Zen.
The stone was assumed to be in the temple as the Cosmic center - a place of communication between earth, all birth, represented often as a mountain or island rising from the waters chaos, as a meeting place of heaven, earth and the gods.
The Greeks grave marker (a mound of earth or a stone) was the earth altar upon which sacrifices to the dead were made and, like other earth altars, it was called the Omphalos, “the navel” of the earth. The one spoken of by Herodotus has the story that Zeus released two eagles, one from the east, the other from the west, and caused them to fly toward the center. They met at the future site of Delphi, and the spot was marked by a stone called the omphalos (navel), which was later housed in the Temple of Apollo
Many a romance novel that involves Arabs and Knights talk about a baetylus - In ancient Greek religion, a sacred stone or pillar. A Semitic word. Numerous holy, or fetish, stones existed in antiquity, generally attached to the cult of some particular god and looked upon as his abiding place or symbol. The most famous being the Omphalos in Delphi that connects to a umbilical cord that runs back through time and carries the concept of 'all birth' to include motherhood, pregnancy - which explains how Dedalus (ah Richard Burton) in Joyce's Odyssey imagines the umbilical cord as a telephone cord that will allow him to call back to Eden.
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Rich, I came in this morning to warn you about gazing at that omphalous at formal dinner parties - other guests would think you were bored with the conversation. Then I saw Barbara's graphic...and decided to wait for further explanation. Do you think that Herodotus used the word in his Histories? It is a Greek word - I wouldn't be at all surprised. Or was it Kapuscinski's? It feels more like Herodotus's usage.
I have to keep reminding myself that both of these books are NON-Fiction - Herodotus left us something so valuable, while attempting to leave a true acount of life during the time when no one else was keeping a record.
"Many reasons for war. Ambition is only one." Jonathan, I think that Herodotus was trying to seek out the reasons for war, hoping that once found, war would not be repeated. In the end, didn't he conclude that as long as there are ambitious men in the world, there will always be war. Not a very positive report comes out of his "research."
So the war with the Greeks is over. What really struck me were the last lines in the last book of Herodotus' Histories -
"Since Zeus has given sovereignty to the Persians and to you in particular, Cyrus...let's emigrate from the country we currently own, which is small and rugged, and take over somewhere better..."
Doesn't it seem the Persian threat is still alive and well today as it was back in Herodotus' time? When a people believe it is their god-given right over all others, will they ever be content with what they have now?
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The 'Omphalos Hypothesis' sounds like a last ditch measure, RICH. The
evidence against a 6000 yr. old earth is hard to ignore, so they came up with
this 'theory'. I would think a much more likely explanation is that it is a
mistake to count the time span based on the orally transmitted genealogy
written down much, much later in the Bible. It's the math that's in error.
Thanks for the research on the use of stones as altars and as landmarks for
holy sites, BARB. It's amazing the great variety of information that comes up
in these discussions.
The poster suggests that women too are out for glory and all the perks to
be found in battle.
JONATHAN, you've got to tell me more about this. I'd like to see that poster
and see if it gives me the same impression. I find that idea very hard to
accept. Of course there are women who can be as rapacious and ambitious
as any man, but you usually find them in the business realm. "..the perks to
be found in battle." ??? Other than the possibility of a medal and/or promotion,
I can't imagine any perks in battle.
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I hope it's not bad form to mention another book during a specific book discussion, but here goes:
I'm reading a book entitled 1491 (New revelations of the Americas before Columbus). It opened my eyes about the perceptions we were taught in grade school about the new world.
For instance, there were more people in the Americas than in Europe before Columbus landed.
The Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan, was larger, more heavily populated, cleaner, and more beautiful that any European city at the time.
The Europeans who "discovered" the new world were looked down upon by the "Americans" who thought of the intruders as puny, diseased, physically unfit, and unbelievably foul smelling, some of them having never bathed in their lifetime.
Why do I mention this book? As I read it in parallel to our book, I wonder why the people in the Americas, with all they had going for them, did not have a Herodotus. Or maybe they did have a Herodotus, and we have no way of learning about him (or her).
They did not have the wheel, or horses, or an extensive written tradition.
We'll probably never know if there was a native American Herodotus, and what his thoughts were.
What a shame.
Rich
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The native American tribes generally stayed within their own territories,
having little contact outside the neighboring tribes, who could be either
allies or enemies. Natural crises could cause them to move, seeking better
or safer territory. They were still pretty much bound into the oral tradition,
and like all such tribal people, they had their story-tellers who preserved
the legends of their origins, god, heroes..and their pranksters. The story-
teller was about as close to an historian as they got, so far as I know.
I would hope there are collections of those 'histories' out there, RICH.
The description of the early Europeans coming to America.."puny,diseased,
physically unfit, and unbelievable foul smelling..." was probably quite true.
After all, it had been a long trip and the people of those times had some
strange ideas about bathing, anyway. I believe the Japanese had a very similar
opinion of the first Europeans to show up there, too. :(
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Thank you, Babi, for your comments on my posting. The part about the small tribes having little contact outside their own geographic area is mostly true for the Northern American tribes, especially when we recall what our grade school textbooks told us that the pilgrims at Plymouth rock, etc. encountered.. But what opened my eyes in this book is the author's comments about the Inca Nation.
"In 1491 the Inka (That's how he feels it should be spelled.) ruled the greatest empire on earth. Bigger than Ming Dynasty China, bigger than Ivan the Great's expanding Russia, bigger than Songhay in the Sahel or powerful Great Zimbabwe in the West Africa tablelands, bigger than the cresting Ottoman Empire, bigger than the Triple Alliance, bigger by far than any European state, the Inka dominion extended over a staggering thirty two degrees of latitude- as if a single power held sway from St. Petersburg to Cairo."
Rich
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Rich, it seems that Kapus is all over the globe with his comments in these closing chapters. Literally. Your comment on the Inka ruling the greatest empire on earth got my attention... though I must have read right over it. Can you remember in which chapter you read that? I'd really like to re-read it in context.
I'll admit my attention was on the accounts of how those huge overpowering armies have been made up of slaves...driven by rulers who wish further domination.
When he writes about the "end" of the Greek/Persian war...it wasn't really over, was it? It seems it is still going on.
Kapuscinski writes of the military takeover in Algeria...and the conflicts that led to it: conflicts between Christianity and Islaam - West and East and what he calls "the conflicts within...the heart of Islaam, between the fundamentalists and modernity." It makes you stop and think how the causes of war have been the same -
"The Algerian Civil War was an armed conflict between the Algerian government and various Islamist rebel groups which began in 1991. Total casualties have yet to be accurately counted but it is estimated to have cost somewhere between 44,000 and 200,000 lives, in a population of about 25,010,000 in 1990 and 31,193,917 in 2000"
More than 70 journalists were assassinated, either by security forces or by Islamists.
Journalists, like Kapuscinski were always in the thick of things...a dangerous occupation. That reminds me - I found an interview with Kapus. wife on what it was like being married to such a man. I'll see if I stored it in a good place.
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Joan P., The comments about the Incas came from me musing about why the Americas did not give us a Herodotus. (At least as far as we know.) The specific quote is from the book 1491 New Revelations of the Americas before Columbus by Charles C. Mann.
Please forgive my straying from Kapuscinski. ;)
Rich
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Ouch folks - maybe a book on Native Confederations would be valuable - the tribes DID have much contact with each other - in the East especially - part of our Constitution is copied from the the Confederacies of the Native Tribes.
A couple of confederacies include:
The Iroquois, were an association with a large tribal alliance. The Iroquois Constitution, called the Great Law of Peace, were the most powerful federation in the northeast that included the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora..
The Tecumseh's Confederacy that included 1000s of warriors in what is now the Ohio River Valley
The Cherokee Nation included Chickasaw, Choctaw, Muscogee Creeks, Seminole - within the Muscogee were the Coushatta and the Alabama-Coushatta of Texas.
The Blackfoot Nation is a confederation of several tribes, including the South Piegan, the Blood or Kainai, the North Piegan, and the North Blackfoot or Siksika.
The most ancient confederacy of the Shawnee, whose history go back to the mound dwellers are part of the Algonquians who concluded hundreds of peace treaties with the tribal leaders Metacomet, Cornstalk, Tecumseh and Pontiac. Some of the tribes that were represented with peace treaties and part of the Confederacy were the Delaware, the Mingo, Illiniwek, Kickapoo, Menominee, Miami, Sac and Fox
The Apache tribe consists of: the Western Apache, Chiricahua, Mescalero, Jicarilla, Lipan and Kiowa
The Pawnee, one of the largest and most prominent Plains tribes, numbered over ten thousand during the period of early contact with Europeans. There were four divisions, designated as bands. Northernmost were the Skiris, who spoke a distinct dialect of Pawnee, a Caddoan language. South of the Platte to Kansas lived the Chawis, the Kitkahahkis, and the Pitahawiratas.
The Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes were united and friends to the Lokato (Sioux) and they were part of a 7 nation Confederacy.
This goes on and on - so that there were few to none small tribes unassociated with a formal Confederacy with laws that were not written till the 1500s but were known and kept alliances, trading and wars legal among Native Tribes. This is no different than today we know of the Tribes and their loyalty in places like Iraq with the Sunni and Shea - although religious based they use tribal law and Sherra law.
Long before the white man showed up, using long distance runners, among the western tribes some of these runners had routes into the Yucatan in Mexico. Trading and communication was far more sophisticated than our White history leads us to believe - like most history the victors write the history from their perspective often demonizing the enemy.
The framers of the Constitution, like most colonists, were keenly aware and persuaded by Indian images of liberty. During the bi-centennial year of The Constitution of the United States, a number of books were written concerning the origin of our revered document. The "The Genius of the People," explains that after the many weeks of debate a committee led in part by South Carolina's John Rutledge, sat to discuss the wide range of disputes amongst the delegates. Rutledge had served earlier, along with Ben Franklin and others, at the Stamp Act Congress.
This Committee of Detail was having trouble deciding just how to formalize the many items of discussion into one document that would satisfy one and all. Rutledge proposed they model the new government into something along the lines of the Iroquois League of Nations, which had been functioning as a democratic government for hundreds of years, and which he had observed in Albany.
While there were many models from ancient and modern histories in Europe and the Middle East, only the Iroquois system seemed to meet most of the demands supported by the many parties to the debates. The Iroquois had a Constitution which began: "We the people, to form a union..." The Constitution of the Iroquois Nation called the Great Binding Law, Gayanashagowa contains 117 articles.
I know all that is beside the point to this book but I am always deflated when I hear how we do not know the history of a people who we have stripped of their land, language, culture and even taken away from parents their children to educate them to be white.
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Wow! I had no idea it was that extensive, RICH. And isn't it embarassing to
think that cities like Tenochtitlan were cleaner under the Incas than most of
the 'civilized' cities of Europe. To think how superior they/we considered
ourselves to be.
JOANP, what struck me most was the observation that the conflict between
Christianity and Islam was spurred by the Ottoman threat to one of their
richest and most valuable cities. It has often seemed to me that religion
was the excuse for conflicts more than the cause. Kings and popes both, imo,
used religion to stir up the people to go to war, while their underlying motives
were the old ones of attaining or preserving wealth and power.
You're correct, of course, BARB. I included 'allies', and some of those
confederacies were huge. Still, the contact beween, say, the Eastern tribes,
the Plains Indians, and the remote Pacific tribes must have been extremely
rare, while communications between neighboring tribes would be expected.
I don't really know what these native tribes would have considered a 'long
distance'. A number of the southwestern tribes, as you know, roamed freely
into Mexico, as part of their territory.
I knew the Iroquois naton was an inspiration to our founders, but I wasn't
aware of how closely we had followed their pattern. Thank you for that info.
about the "Great Binding Law".
Back to Herodotus... K raises the quandary of the Greeks on the advance of the Persians. Cooperate, boycot, resist, all-out fight to the death? It would seem he is referring to the whole of the city-states, as Athens has made it's choice unarguably clear. At the mere suggestion of cooperation with the invaders, the citizenry fly into a rage and stone the speaker to death. And Sparta, with its warlike culture and ethic, is their ally in resistance. It is the remainder of the Greek city-states that must make up their minds what to do.
Oddly enough, despite their great numbers, it seems the Persian soldiery are not at all optimistic about their chances. A Persian speaks of the premonitions that have tormented him that this great army will have few survivors. When asked why he does not tell his leaders of these dreams....people paid close attention to dreams as portents and warnings...replies, "My friend, and event which has been decreed by the god cannot be averted by man, for no one is willing to believe even those who tell the truth. A great many Persians are well aware of what I've just said, but we follow our leaders because we have no choice. There's no more terrible pain a man can endure than to see clearly and be able to do nothing." Echoes of Cassandra!
Please excuse the length of this post. The deadline is almost upon us!
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Several things popped into my mind while reading.
1. I was not aware that ANYONE survived Thermopylae.
2. The Algerian coup de etat is something I need to learn more about since I only remember that it happened and the names of the leaders involved.
3. In order to show everything was going well in a household the woman was expected to be almost constantly pregnant. No wonder there has been so much poverty and starvation in that part of the world with mores such as that.
Babi, your quote definitely shows the fatalistic approach to life that most people held back then. Destiny was pre-ordained. Regardless of what you do or don't do, you cannot escape your fate. If the priests and oracles decree something as coming from the Gods, then it must be so (oh, gee, like none of them were ever mistaken or worse, lied). No Free Will allowed.
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Wow!
Lots of things to think about and talk about this morning. This is what happens when we realize that our month together is nearing an end.
"The comments about the Incas came from me - musing about why the Americas did not give us a Herodotus." Rich
Rich, your musings got me thinking about how an "American" historian might have operated in the 1490's...and what the "history" would have been like. This brought up another point Kapuscinski makes implies. Was Herodotus really an historian, were his Histories really intended to be a definitive history of the period? Kapus. states that the term, "Histories" "misses the point" He says "Inquiries" or Investigations" would be a better description of what Herodotus had set out to do. He makes a distinction between an historian and a reporter. In fact he goes so far as to say that "to understand the past as it was, is impossible. What are available to us are only it's various versions... The past does not exist. There are only infinite renderings of it."
Whew! That's a lot to think about, isn't it? Kapus tells us that Herodotus was aware of this, yet persevered in his investigations of eye witnesses to the past. He did not consider himself an historian, but rather a reporter of what he saw and heard.
Kapuscinski tells us he is becoming "dependent" on Herodotus. Would you say he's changing the way he's reporting, the more immersed he gets in his work?
He tells us he's the only reporter in Africa during the 1960's...do you think his reports to the Polish Press were similar to Herodotus' reports of the Greco-Persian Wars?
Good morning, Babi! You're right, the deadline is nearing...
Back to Herodotus' ...
coffee is cold...back in a sec~
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" Regardless of what you do or don't do, you cannot escape your fate." Fry
Fry, Do you think Herodotus believed that Xerxes destiny was pre-ordained? Do you think that he believed Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset - no matter what?
Kapus. summed it up - "Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished. This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny." I can see where Kapus. would agree with Herodotus - war a crime, and eventually be punished. Does every nation who goes to war understand that this will always be the outcome...? Would you call this "predestination"?
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These have been some great discussions. It is too bad we're winding down to a finish.
I had to read the part about Kapus' meeting with the Algerian ambassador twice. I found it very interesting on several levels. I won't bore you with an explanation of all my levels of interest, but the fact that all the ambassador had to say was, "It might be worth your while to go to Algiers" was enough to trigger Kapus' reportorial instincts. He resolved, on the basis of those ten words, to take a great professional chance by leaving his assignment and traveling across half the continent of Africa without authorization.
He could have been fired.
His instincts paid off, however, and he got a good story.
In the business world, when you're not in charge and you see a great opportunity, it's often easier to obtain forgiveness than permission.
Rich
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"K raises the quandary of the Greeks on the advance of the Persians. Cooperate, boycot, resist, all-out fight to the death?" Babi
The Greeks were not unified in the decision to face that huge advancing Persian armies - understandably so. I remember smiling at Kapuscinski's (or was it Herodotus' observation - "No Persian provokes so much hatred in a Greek as another Greek." But they were willing to face the Persians at any cost.
Herodotus made the point that it was the fear of losing their freedom that spurred them into unified action. They would fight to the death.
And yet, I puzzled at the fate of the poor "most courageous" Aristodamus, one of the last of his regiment at Thermopylae to survive, scorned by the Spartans because he went into the battle wishing to die...
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Aristodamis (whose sin was not being killed) would have found a soul mate in General George S. Patton.
"Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
Rich
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Fry, Do you think Herodotus believed that Xerxes destiny was pre-ordained? Do you think that he believed Xerxes lost his kingdom and his chance to rule the world because he lacked humility, or because he was destined to lose it from the onset - no matter what?
Yes to the first question and Yes to the second half of the second question. Destiny by definition is a predetermined course of events that cannot be altered.
Kapus. summed it up - "Whoever starts a war, in Herodotus' opinion, commits a crime and will be revenged upon and punished. This is the very essence of fate, the meaning of irreversible destiny." I can see where Kapus. would agree with Herodotus - war a crime, and eventually be punished. Does every nation who goes to war understand that this will always be the outcome...? Would you call this "predestination"?
I don't think most people think that far, JoanP. They think backward but not so often think forward or forward far enough. And even if they do, they misread the "omens"; they see what they want to see; or, don't consider all the consequences, unintended as well as intended, or think them acceptable. A prime example of short-sited thinking has to be the history of the Middle East since the early 1900s, and especially after WWI. Look how our politicians, along with the English, French, Russians and others carved up the Ottoman Empire without regard to historical tribal territories and with an eye to future megabucks in oil. Look how they continue to try to fix things (to whose advantage?) by backing various groups or persons and generally meddling in other countries affairs. Which brings up a question. Isn't it illegal for the US to interfere with another country's internal affairs? Where is THAT line drawn? We openly encouraged the regime change in Egypt and Libya (with arms in the latter case that are coming back to haunt us in Algeria).
George Santayana's famous line still applies today as it did in Herodotus' time:
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
—Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, p. 284
One more, which seems appropriate:
“... only the dead have seen the end of war.”
—Soliloquies in England, Scribner's, 1922, p. 102
Ah, Rich. Patton is a favorite. He knew his history. I don't think he had much doubt as to his role in life, his fate, his destiny.
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Back for a minute to page 215 when Herodotus "wrestles with the issue constantly" of measuring time during conversation - as Kapuscinski says we today with difficulty we can appreciate the problem since we rely on mechanical or now, digital measurements.
I was reminded at how we still have a different approach towards time while watching PPS antique road show and the one from BBC Britain - disclosing to an American that his or her antique was made in 1680 or even 1790 they are so impressed and dumbfounded that they had on their mantel or in their hall closet something that old - a British audience takes those and even older bits found in fields from the Romans in stride as if they were told it was made 100 years ago instead of more than a 1000 years ago. MY guess is we use the settling of a land as our measurement and anything before is mouth dropping old and so do we really relate when we travel to places on the Mediterranean that are 3,4,5 or more thousands of years old. How can we really appreciate what goes on in the souls of people with such an ancient history half of which we do not know how it had influenced the generations that came.
Which seems to me to be a lead in to his comments on page 240 - "that non-Europeans communities and cultures would have their own ambitions for dignity and respect in the family of man. This is the context in which the problem arises of the Otherness of the Other."
Puts in a different perspective Senghor's dream of "a return to symbolic roots to lost sources..." More and more Kapuscinski is showing us we are still children of ancient Greece living out their reaction and actions in life and keeping alive many of their symbolisms.
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I wonder -
Look how they continue to try to fix things (to whose advantage?) by backing various groups or persons and generally meddling in other countries affairs.
Does any victor consider the enemy as people with needs - in fact even victorious government leaders do not look at benefits to meet the needs of their people -
Seems to me it is about grabbing to add to the power they already possess - In the past we were proud of ourselves as a nation because we were not grabbing after WWII - but in fact we were - we were grabbing the trust that would lead to others agreeing with our way of governing - this grabbing was primary till Iraq when it appears we are now reduced to what we abhorred about other nations - a silent powerful group who knew how to manipulate and grab the oil.
Seems the people measure a good leader by how well the leader make life bearable if not offer opportunities for betterment of the average citizen where as, through out history leaders see the entire nation and the world as the possibility for wealth of one kind or another as well as controlling the power sources who want the wealth of their territory, nation, tribe.
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'History' would seem to indicate that nations that go to war believe either
that it is necessary for their own preservation, or that they will benefit
from it, JOANP. I can't imagine a nation going to war with the understanding that
they are committing a crime and it will be punished.
The Spartans had a harsh culture. Mothers told their sons, on leaving for
battle, to return "with your shield, or on it." No surrender. Victory or
death. If I remember correctly, Aristodamus was ordered to return to Sparta
to report what had happened when it became clear they could not survive. This
made no difference whatever to the disgrace.
"..they misread the "omens"; they see what they want to see; or, don't consider
all the consequences, unintended as well as intended, or think them acceptable."
You've got it in a nutshell there, FRYBABE.
As best I understand Herodotus' motives, he was driven to write down what
history he could learn from those still living, and document the events that
were happening in his time. For us, all of it is now history and he was the
first genuine historian. He even understood the importance of reporting which
events were eye-witness and which were unconfirmed stories and rumors.
You know, I probably would not have read this book without all the thoughtful and
thought-provoking discussion. I found K's mastery of language such a pleasure, tho',
that I may well pick up the book on occasion and read something at random.
Another of K's gems of description....the celebrations at Dakar. The street performers, the spontaneous dances, the laughter and gaiety. The masks are everywhere and highly significant to those who wear, or carry, of see them. Without knowing what they symbolize, it's hard for me to understand their emotional impact. I found this article helpful.
http://www.rebirth.co.za/african_mask_history_and_meaning.htm
Is there a one of us who hasn't the discovered the truth of his words, ".. . one must read Herodotus' book -and every great book - repeatedly; with each reading it will reveal another layer, previously overlooked themes, images, and meanings. For within every great book there are several others."
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BarbStAubrey Your comments about time and how different people perceive it are interesting. I might add to your list the perception that Los Angeleans hold. Any building that is in excess of 60 years old is a part of ancient history in that city.
To the Swiss, if you are more than one or two minutes late to a meeting, you are showing great rudeness. (Maybe that's why they are obsessed with clocks and watches.)
I have many friends (and some relatives) who are from Mexico, and some who live there still. Little offense is taken by them if you are late for anything.
I live near a Hopi reservation in Arizona, and the Hopi concern themselves much less with time (Than, say, compared to the Swiss.) , to the point of sometimes avoiding the use of tenses in their language.
Einstein commenting on time once wrote:"The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once."
Rich
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" I might add to your list the perception that Los Angeleans hold. Any building that is in excess of 60 years old is a part of ancient history in that city."
I remember an argument in graduate school between an American professor and a grad student from India. They were arguing about whether a certain thing should be studied for a short time (the Indian) or a long time (the American). I asked the Indian "What do you mean by a shorttime?" "Oh, about ten years." What did the American mean by a long time? Six months to a year.
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That's a good illustration, JoanK, of the different perceptions of time all of us have. What a mystery. A real problem for people like historian Herodotus, and the scientist Einstein. The ancient 'discovers...the multiformity of time', while the modern discovered its relativity to circumstance.
'Accustomed to an exacting mechanical measurement, we do not realize what a problem the computation of time once presented, how much cifficulty lurked therein, how many riddles and mysteries.' p215
The peasants calculate time by the seasons of the year, city dwellers by generations, the chroniclers of ancient states by the length of the ruling dynasties.
And hasn't Kapuscinski got himself lost in time. There was only the immediate present, or the ancient world of Herodotus.
Reporting the news was another problem. What a hoot!
'Every now and then - in the street, in one of the air-conditioned cafes, or here at the Sea View Hotel - the exchange of loot took place. Some had heard that there had been a coup against Mobutu; others dismissed this as gossip - and how could one verfy it, anyway! From such rumors, whispers, conjectures - and fact, too - we cobbled together our reports and sent them back home.'
Somewhere in the house I have a book about contemporary journalism, with the title: IF NO NEWS, SEND RUMORS.
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That's funny, Jonathan! Are you kidding? Never can tell with you... :D It is certainly an appropriate title here.
Sadly, I had to return my copy of The Histories as it was due. I started to get into it...and regretted not getting past the first book at the beginning of our time together. Such a nice easy conversational writing style! I wonder if this was the translator's doing. Kapuscinski and Herodotus had this in common....they both seemed to love their subjects, their stories, their jobs, and above all, their love of travel and discovery.
When K. wrote that it was a lonely job...even wondered whether Herodotus had a wife, I wondered again about Kapuscinski, his wife, his marriage. Like Herodotus, he seemed to always be on the road, alone.
Not only did I find his wife in Poland - a pediatrician, but found an interview she gave after his death, in which she talks about what it was like, her life with this man - and his passion. I thought I'd better bring it here now - the clock is ticking...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
Travels with Herodotus
Ryszard Kapuscinski
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/jane/temp/mergeddiagonal.jpg)
| "We struggle against time, against the fragility of memory … If we don’t write down what we learn and experience, that which we carry within will perish when we die." Ryszard Kapuscinski
Part autobiography, part literary criticism and part meditation, Travels with Herodotus tells the story of two intertwined journeys: the author's literal voyages across the globe, and his pursuit of Herodotus, the Greek historiographer who reported from foreign lands in the fifth century BC. And Kapuscinski brings Herodotus to life, showing again just what a superlative writer he is. He lived and worked at the juncture of two epochs: the era of written history was beginning, but the oral tradition still predominated. Sara Wheeler The Guardian |
Discussion Schedule:
Jan. 4-12 Crossing the Border up to Memory Along the Roadways of the World
Jan. 13-18 Memory Along the Roadways of the World up to Among Dead Kings
Jan. 19-25 Among Dead Kings up to Time Vanishes
Jan. 26 Time Vanishes to end of last chapter, We Stand in Darkness |
For Your Consideration
January 26-31
"Time Vanishes" - "We Stand in Darkness"
Time Vanishes
1. Kapucinski describes Herodotus' his methods - not simply recording a history of dynasties and kings but the life of simple people, religious beliefs, disasters. Does this method seem to work for Kapuscinski?
2. "One must read Herodotus' book, and every great book repeatedly - each reading reveals another layer." Do you agree with the importance of rereading? Ah, but do you do it?
The Desert and the Sea p.221
3. What convinced Kapuscinski to put aside The Histories to fly to Algiers, without knowing the ambassador's reason for sending him, and without notifying his superiors at the Press Agency? What does this say about Kapuscinski's priorities? Was he the first to break the news of the military coup in Algiers?
4. How did this coup represent the two great conflicts of the contemporary world, between France and the colony of Algeria, between Islamic fundamentalism and modernity? Are these the same struggles we are reading about in today's news?
Black is Beautiful
5. Cheih Anta Diop, the Sengalese Historian in the 50's maintained European and Western culture had beginnings in Africa. Was he the first to point to Herodotus, who had argued many elements of Greek culture came from Egypt and Libya. What effect did Richard Wright's Black Power have on this theory when he concluded he concluded on his trip to Ghana that they were African, he, American - total strangers, separated by language barrier, nothing in common. Do you remember this?
6. "From the island of Goree, the mass abduction of as many as 20 million slaves depopulated the continent." -Egyptian culture had fascinated Herodotus. Kapuscinski wonders if Herodotus had slaves. Why?
Scenes of Passion and Prudence
7. Did the final sentence in the Histories indicate that the Persian threat is still alive and well today?
Herodotus' Discovery
8. According to Kapuscinski, what are the traits of a good reporter? How does he compare himself to Herodotus? Does Kapuscinski seem to have the same passion and drive?
9. What does Kapuscinski regard as Herodotus' most important discovery?
We Stand in Darkness, Surrounded by Light
10. What draws Herodotus to the road, away from home? Where is his home? Kapuscinski describes such a reporter like Herodotus as unhappy and lonely, a man who does not grow attached to anything." Is Kapuscinski describing himself? Read more about Kapuscinski's home life and wife in Warsaw (http://www.sikhchic.com/people/the_voice_of_a_free_man_ryszard_kapu_ci_ski)
Finally, please share your observations on the many points made in the last chapter of the book.
Discussion Leaders: JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net), Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Here's the link to the interview - I'll pull out relevant parts...as it is quite long...
http://www.sikhchic.com/people/the_voice_of_a_free_man_ryszard_kapu_ci_ski
Alicja has lovely sunny eyes and a warm disposition.
She took the chair at the head of the table. ‘It is my habit,’ she said.
Q You might be getting many visitors, don’t you get tired?
A I quite enjoy it actually. I try not to take more than one visitor or a group a day but I like it that readers come and connect with their writer. I see it as my job to preserve his legacy: both his work-place which was our home, and the hundreds of agreements with publishers, translation rights, rights to reuse pieces, and now have a prize in journalism instituted in his name. I find it my job to preserve the writer’s legacy, I do all I can to keep him as fresh as he comes across to his wide variety of readers.
(The Kapuściński award for literary reportage was instituted on the journalist’s third death anniversary in 2010 by the City of Warsaw and the newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza.)
Q You are a doctor (a paediatrician) ...
A Yes, I worked at the hospital for 35 years and have now been retired for over a decade. But I remain much more busy than I was at the hospital. In the Communist years, hospitals were hard places to be in, especially with children where there was a scarcity of food. I like this work, keeps me engaged. It is the idea that I am preserving his legacy. Then I have my grand-children and now great grand-children.
Q Did you ever accompany Kapuściński on his duties?
A The authorities let me go to take care of him at times when he fell very ill. A few times in Africa. Then when he was posted in Mexico as a News Attaché he took me along. I worked in the hospitals there and was appalled to see the size of the babies:
so small, so malnourished. I worked there for three years feeding them, nursing them.
Q Kapuściński saw so much violence, millions dead. How many revolutions?
A 27 (and she laughs). We change with just one or two … He did see a lot. Four times he got the death sentence. Many times he was caught in fights and was threatened with knives and bombs and guns. We never kept count of how many times he was arrested or detained by police and military. His work was risky but he wanted to do it.
Q Did witnessing all the horror, all the deaths, depress him?
A No. He believed he had a task at hand and he went about doing it. He believed in his work and he fulfilled it.
Q Even Mother Teresa is reported to have doubts. She wrote notes in her diary to God. How did Kapuściński escape the feeling?
A In every situation he documented, he knew both sides: those who killed and those who were being killed. He chose to tell the story of those who were being killed.
Q How often did he revise his stories?
A All the time. He would write long hand. He would look at his long hand piece and be dissatisfied. He would cut, change, make the whole piece so shabby. Then he would move to the typewriter. Then again cut and change. He never stopped. But
he never took to the computer. He felt it destroyed rigour. The good thing was he had an agreement with a newspaper that he would write columns for them. He had deadlines. Else, he would have never have finished...
Q Who did he read to?
A To me. Always to me. He read to me everything he wrote.
Q Did you comment on his writing?
A Sometimes. (She feels shy.) Very rarely I would suggest something. He would consider it. It would be incorporated in the next draft.
Q Where did he write?
A In this house, upstairs. In his study. He was always there, working. Working all the time.
Q Did he write in a routine?
A He just worked and worked. Reading, writing. He used to tell his students: to write one book you must read at least a hundred. He asked me to remove his telephone. I had to answer all his calls: Mr. K is busy. Mr. K will call back. Mr. K will
respond.
Lidia's Q How did you meet, the both of you?
A He and I were students of history at the Warsaw University. It was after the Second World War, we were under Communism. Friends used to say that at dances we both would dance only with each other and not look and talk with anyone else. Guess that was our love. He encouraged me to study medicine, to become a doctor. (She sits up, pauses, and then continues.)
Within a year of meeting we were married. Within a year of marriage I was pregnant. He was still living with his family and I lived in the ladies hostel. His mother was ill. Luckily, she recovered and he got a job as a reporter. Then he was allotted a small apartment and we moved in.
Lidia's Q And then?
A Slowly he started travelling and I was extremely busy with my work at the hospital. Even when he came back from travels there would be one or two nights a week when I would be on 24-hour shifts. But it all worked out. He would tend the home when I was away. We shared a deep friendship and from it, love.
Q What, if you now look back and wonder, would you say made the marriage work?
A I never told him to not to do something he wanted to do ... that's all. I never stopped him or questioned him about what he wanted to do. I guess we had that trust.
Q Did Ryszard believe in an idea of Justice? Or, did he consider it his task to bring to the world the stories of the dispossessed people?
(Lidia tries to translate but Alicja raises her hand and looks at me point-blank, and says ...)
A The latter. He believed there are many who wish to be heard but are not heard. He wanted to bring to the world the messages of those who are not heard. That was how he defined his role to himself.
* * * * *
We go up to see the study. At the door are grass shoe covers, the kind used by people in Plinsk, where Kapuściński was born, to cover their shoes from the always slushy ground. Some pictures from Africa that he took. The study is an L-shaped room, about as big as a badminton court. It is lined with books. There are thousands of them, so it looks small.
Q When did he start working from this study?
A We bought this house around 22 years before. Before that we lived in apartments. When we bought the house Ryszard was thinking of writing about Idi Amin, Uganda. But then Glasnost and Perestroika happened and the mighty Union of Soviet Socialist Republic crumbled. So he went to Russia for 13 months to report on the break up of the Soviet empire. I took permission from the municipal authorities to renovate the upstairs of the house and created this study. He came back and loved it. Since then, for next last 20 years he lived here and worked here most of the time.
Q How did he deal with fame?
A When The Emperor was translated and the world press came looking for him, he was taken aback. But he remained modest. Once at a book function, the organisers closed the doors on some readers because they had an official dinner scheduled for him. He got angry and asked the organisers to open the doors. He said, these people have travelled hundreds of miles to come and be here and you want to prevent them? This love for people kept him going. When he met people he would ask them what they did, who was in their family, the names of their children, what work they did, simple small questions. In fact, journalists had it the toughest with him when they came to interview him. They would joke: With him we do not know who is interviewing whom.
She explains that Kapuściński did not only start his journeys with India, he even ended his touring with India. His last visit was about a year before he passed away but he could not travel for too long. He went from Delhi to Dharamsala and fell ill so had to come back.
"In fact," she said, "I can’t recollect if he went anywhere after that trip. So his world exposure started and ended with India."
"And the books," I said.
She gave a wide smile.
Q How many passports did he finally have?
A Just one. Issued after the Solidarity Movement (1989). Earlier whenever he had to travel he would request the authorities and they would call him for an interview. It would be a long interview, 3 hours, 4 hours. Then they would issue him a new passport. When he came back, they took the passport back and interviewed him again. He did not know his interviews were being recorded. That is why the biographer found a huge file on him (she holds her hands apart about 18 inches) in the state archives and accused him of being a supporter of the Soviet regime. It was just a job. He had to face the interviews.
In fact, when the revolution broke out in Zanzibar, he was the first journalist in the world to report it. Even at Angola he was the only journalist for almost three months.
But the Soviets did not believe him. So, he had to ask the TASS (Soviet News Agency) reporter to send the story. Typically, a case of the Soviets believing what they heard from their own sources.
Q Did he ever have to work in an office? Or was he always on the field, reporting?
A No, he was either reporting or he was at home. After the Zanzibar incident the Soviet authorities asked him to take over as editor, do an office job. He refused. He wanted to report and he kept doing that or writing columns.
Q So, can we say, that in the Soviet regime, behind the Iron Curtain, he was the only free citizen who could live the way he wanted to live?
A (She laughs.) That is true. In spite of the regime, he was a free man.
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Great thanks JoanP for sharing the interview - sounded like a man who believed in classic communism hijacked soon after it gained a footing in Russia when the belief was about the liberation and respect for the proletariat.
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I was stunned to read that 20 million Africans had been enslaved. Nor can I grasp
the idea of any amount depopulating a country as enormous as Africa. How did K.
obtain these figures, I wonder. Are there written records? There could not have
been any kind of census of the population.
A great interview, JOAN. I especially liked reading Mr. K's own perception of what
he needed to do. Thank you for posting it for us.
He believed there are many who wish to be heard but are not heard. He wanted to
bring to the world the messages of those who are not heard. That was how he defined
his role to himself.
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In an email I just received -
"You can never understand one language until you understand at least two."
— Herbert Geoffrey Willans: English author and journalist
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Thanks, JoanP, for the interview. What an interesting life. What a busy life. Very touching to hear about the neighbor telling Alicja a day or two after the author's death, how sorry he was to see the light in the study turned off. It had always been on.
And bringing Mother Teresa into the interview is very strange. Did her husband ever have doubts like the patron saint of souls living the dark night? Had Lidia just finished reading COME BE MY LIGHT, an account of Mother Teresa's tempestuous spiritual journey? It came out the year Kapuscinski died. It's heartbreaking.
The link in the header to the complete interview has a photo of the author on his black horse in a sinister valley - with a broad smile.
I located the book. IF NO NEWS, SEND RUMORS. It's by Stephen Bates. 'Anecdotes of American Journalism'. Three hundred years worth. Published in 1989. I had no idea reporting the news was such a complicated business. But then Theodor Roosevelt felt history should be written with imagination. Had he read too much Herodotus?
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Joan K and P. This journey is soon reaching its final. Thanks to you and all the other participants, has this journey, through thousands of years and countries come to a happy ending.
It seems to me that JK and Herodotus have merge into one person. About Joan P's question how a heartless man like Darius could create beautiful things. I think powerful, and good looking persons can be just as cruel as they want. Never judge a person from his looks. The backs of the slave wasn't his problem. The main thing was to proof his own greatness. And luckily we can look at the remains of it, without feeling their pain. Or can we?
And Joan K. I can very well understand JK:s fears when he approaches by the police. For anyone (a little aware) of the life in the communist states, it is highly understandable. Almost natural.
Finally, I want to thank Seniornet for arranging, and put down such energy and encouragement to us. It's incredible how much I have learned from everyone about our past and modern history. It feels like I have reached a higher step in the history of man.
Thank you all, and I hope to meet you all again in the mysterious ways of "The hare with auburn eyes"
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Here is the main page for the Bodrum (Heliocarnassas) Museum of Underwater Archeology that K mentions in the last pages. My Java plugin doesn't handle the panorama program in my Firefox browser. Boo Hoo. Used to be able to see it. Departments will get you to the glass room, etc.
http://www.bodrum-museum.com/
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Thanks Frybabe that is a wonderful link - so many places I seldom read about with a viewpoint from the ancients and from a part of Europe I gave a 'never mind'. For me the most fascinating was reading how each morning in India a father and son pray the Upanishads - that is where my curiosity next takes me - this has been a great discussion with a great group who saw things I would have missed... Thanks
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Great site, FRYBABE. I hadn't heard of the Knights of St. John before. What's really
fascinating, tho', is the history of the widowed Queen Artemisia who built the mausoleum
to honor her much loved husband. Look her up; she was exceptional.
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Nautical archeology. It sounds exciting. Imagine exploring the sea-bed of the eastern Mediterranean, and bringing to the surface some of the endless treasures lost and found from immemorial times.
Thanks, Barb, for suggesting this interesting read. What a journey in space and time. Thanks to all of you. It's been fun.
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What a great discussion - to the very end! Thank you all so much for all the insights and information you have shared with us.
From Kapuscinski's book I will take seriously his advice to read, to reread the great books- and try to get back to Herodotus, now that I know it is so easily accessible on my library's shelf. I regret not making the time to read more of it during our time together.
Hope to see you all in our next adventure, beginning tomorrow morning - The Hare with the Amber Eyes.
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Just last night heard an interview dated June 2012 discussing Kapuscinski and a biography written by a friend of his. The book was just translated into English and is available in the UK and US. The book apparently caused something of an uproar in Poland when it was originally published. It seems K was something of an icon there and was rarely criticized.
Kapuscinski: A Life. http://www.amazon.com/Ryszard-Kapuscinski-Life-Artur-Domoslawski/dp/184467858X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359895355&sr=8-1&keywords=Kapuscinski+biography
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Thanks for sharing this, Fry. From the link you provided:
"Reporting from such varied locations as postcolonial Africa, revolutionary Iran, the military dictatorships of Latin America and Soviet Russia, the Polish journalist and writer Ryszard Kapuściński was one of the most influential eyewitness journalists of the twentieth century. During the Cold War, he was a dauntless investigator as well as a towering literary talent, and books such as The Emperor and Travels with Herodotus founded the new genre of ‘literary reportage’. It was an achievement that brought him global renown, not to mention the uninvited attentions of the CIA".
"It was an achievement that brought him global renown, not to mention the uninvited attentions of the CIA" This got my attention!
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Hmm.. It occurs to me, JOANP, that the CIA probably is interested in anyone who can get about freely most
anywhere, and turns up at trouble spots all over the globe. Just as a routine thing. I don't for a minute imagine
Kapuscinski was playing spy as well. He had quite enough to do not to get arrested or killed on his regular job. 8)