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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6
April 8 - April 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 6:
..."his sandwich seemed as appetizing now as two rubber mats filled with horsehair. He pushed the plate away and signaled Tom to bring another lager.")
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Some Topics for Consideration
April 1-7~ Chapters 1 - 6
1. Some of you have commented on H. Simonson's beautiful writing. What is it about her writing style that you find so pleasing?
2. How do their differences make the Major and Mrs. Ali an unlikely pair? What is their common attraction?
3. What do the Churchills represent to the Major so that he struggles with Marjorie’s legal claim to the guns? What in the Major’s mind, would he be selling if the guns were sold to the highest bidder?
4. There are differences in how families keep or dispose of their departed loved one's possessions. How did you or your family members make the choice? How did you feel using something your loved one held as special?
5 What are the Major's feelings for his son? Do you think he's fair in his interpretation of Roger's motives and actions?
6. What sort of subtle prejudices or stereotyping do you find in these opening chapters?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118);
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Have you stopped smiling yet ? The Buffalo news says, the book is "Playful yet affecting" and I couldn't agree more - and like you, I am ready to play and be affected as we discuss this charming love story -
Welcome - I would invite you to consider a cup of tea at your elbow while we discuss this story - However, it appears there are all sorts of drinks served during events described in the Major's story - and so make yourself comfortable with your beverage of choice and let's start.
Like many of you, I too have completely read the book and yet, some among us will be reading chapter by chapter according to the weeks discussion and so please, let's try to keep our observations within the chapters we are/have discussed.
I must say the words used in many descriptions of this book include that it is a love story and that fits a broader description of love - we think of a romantic love story between two folks - and yet, Major Pettigrew's Last Stand includes many love stories. Love that at times is challenged or strained, romanticized and love that acknowledges loss. There is love for the land, the village, a way of life, traditional activities, cultural values; love between father and sons, mother and daughter, husband and wife, brothers, young modern love, even the love between landed gentry. The story includes unselfish love for family members as well as, the gentle love between old friends and golfing buddies.
Well together we will be adding to the tradition of love as we share with each other our thoughts and our own experiences as we read together this well crafted book. I am really excited - I do not remember last enjoying a book so much that I truly looked forward to reading it again.
Hurrah in advance to your posts and please, remember, as you read if a question for the author pops into your head jot it down and bring it here so we can have an appropriate list that will bring about a good discussion with Helen Simonson on April 11.
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Oh I agree with Barbara - "hurrah in advance for your posts." As individuals we see things others have glossed right over. These discussions are always so enlightening as we pool our ideas.
In the prediscussion there was talk of Helen Simonson's "beautiful writing." I always like to watch the writer as s/he weaves a tale. I've been thinking of this author's style while reading the first chapters. Am really looking forward to hearing from you - a bit more specifically. What is it about her writing style that draws you into the story from the git-go?
To echo Barbara - a great big welcome to every one of you!
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I've read as far as chapter 3 so far. Two things I want to comment on so far. One is that I immediately like these two; they are readers. Major Pettigrew with his "book lined living room" and Mrs. Ali, who has her book with her while waiting for the Major.
The other is a link to Corfe Castle, briefly mentioned on p5. Can't help it, I like castles. http://www.corfecastle.net/
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X Marking my spot until I get the book tomorrow and begin rereading to refresh my memory so I can respond to the questions.
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owww thanks for the link to the Corfe Castle Frybabe - lovely, just lovely - Looking forward to you posts Callie - I need to curl up for a bit tonight and refresh myself in these first few chapters - no tea tonight - I have a bottle of wine I opened last week and that is what it will be.
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I love the writing. She has such a gift with just the right phrase at the right time.
I am amazed in the book at the rudeness of the Majors son.. What a horrible person. He simply does not see any view but his own and he must realize that his father has opinions too. They just dont seem to count.. I am glad that my grown sons respect me as a human and dont try to assume that what they want is right and what I want doesnt count.
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Yeah! I'm here and am looking forward to this discussion. Will post more later.
Sally
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This book did not immediately pull me in. I was almost ready to return it to the library after the first couple of chapters. Did not care for any of the characters, especially the Major's son, his girlfriend, and the Major's sister in law Marjorie. But as I read on it became a bit more interesting. I will stay with it for a while. It makes an easy read between John Fowles' The French Lieutenant's Woman which I just finished and Wolf Hall which I am still reading.
I like Mrs. Ali and it was sad to hear her tell of her father's huge library of books being sold or burned up after his death by her uncles.
I have not read any biographical info on the author. Wonder if she has any friends/neighbors who are Pakistani. She seems to understand the people.
Marj
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Question 4.. There are differences in how families keep or dispose of their departed loved one's possessions. How did you or your family members make the choice? How did you feel using something your loved one held as special?
In their wills, my parents disinherited one of my brothers because he was gay. My other brother and I simply disregarded that part of the will and shared our inheritance with our gay sibling.
Marj
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It's all here. The loss of a spouse, loneliness, the uncertainty and frustrations of age and the children who patronize. The Major "mumbles." I like the major, I understand the major. And when he meets Mrs. Ali, who loves to read and they can discuss books he finds a companion and wants to see more of her. Of course, he does! She has a dreadful nephew, who being a Middle Eastener believes he is the decision maker in the family, the one and only boss. I wonder if his attitude will change as the book continues.
HI MARJ. How very sad for your family that your parents had an "attitude" towards your gay brother; understandable though. In their era and, possibly, due to religion, it was sinful. We have come a long way to understanding differences.
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It's April! April Fools' Day! For those just joining us, the book cover that you see in the heading was taken from the 1924 April edition of Life Magazine - What do you see on the cover?
It was called "April Fool" - can you tell why? I wonder if Helen Simonson is aware of this title?
Marjifay, I love the idea...wonder how many "heirs" disregard wills and share as your siblings did! Somehow I don't think Marjorie is going to be quite as generous with the Major, do you?
I too found the story itself a bit slow-going in these opening chapters - it was Simonson's writing that I found engaging. Steph speaks of her use of just the right phrase at the right time. I agree! Those metaphors especially. Did you note any in particular?
I love the way she is portraying the characters. Throught the eyes of the other characters. I'm going to say this, knowing how you feel about Roger - I'm not so sure he is quite as bad as his father sees him...but what exactly has he done? Or not done?
We were posting together, Ella! I "get" the Major too - but don't quite see him as a romantic match for Mrs. Ali yet. As a friend, perhaps. Do we know her name? I'd better run - late, as usual! But I could stay here all day!
Looking forward to your comments...Beware the April Fool!
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It's April! April Fools' Day! For those just joining us, the book cover that you see in the heading was taken from the 1924 April edition of Life Magazine - What do you see on the cover?
It was called "April Fool" - can you tell why? I wonder if Helen Simonson is aware of this?
Very good, Joan! Looks like a man and woman embracing, until you see it's a coat rack. Looks like it might have been from a Norman Rockwell painting.
Marj
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That April Fool cover sure had us going for awhile didn't it - wasn't it Ella that said something that tipped us off - that was funny how none of us were that observant.
And yes Joan - the writing - I love looking closer at the sentences while reading this the second time - there are some very lyrical sentences sprinkled throughout each chapter - and for me bang, right off the bat there was a word I was not sure of either its meaning or its pronunciation. Sorta got it as it was used in the sentence but "Senescence" is not a word I can ever remember hearing or seeing used before. I never would have guessed the last bit was emphasized and pronounced like cents.
Steph she does have a way with words doesn't she - I loved it - this one caught my eye immediately on the first page..."low, accented roundness of her voice when they discussed the texture and perfume of the teas she blended specially for him." Oh my - how sensuous is that.
And then on the next page to take such a hackneyed thought and convert it into a beautiful sentence. "The dawn chorus had still been chattering in the giant yew against the west wall of the cottage, the sky pink, when the telephone rang."
OH dear Marj - that is sad and colors the memory of a loved one doesn't it - it looks like your family was given a struggle that y'all needed, to find the silver threads of love and goodness under the tarnish. Has to be there or everyone would not have hung together to include the brother. I'm thinking that kind of loyalty and affection did not come out of the blue, it had to be taught.
Marj my guess is if Helen Simonson spent her childhood in Britain she would have had a close window to the Pakistani culture - I haven't been in the past few years but I was a regular for awhile taking in the shows and when I was teaching Needlework traveling all over England and Wales to see museum collections. Then, there were not many Pakistani families in the villages but already, whole swathes of London were centers of Pakistani culture. What was great being in London over Christmas at least the Pakistani stores and restaurants were open
Isn't there a saying that the English are a nation of shopkeepers - looks like those from the east add to the notion.
Sally hope you are enjoying the read AND hope you are feeling better - are your bruises still visible?
Ella, YES... :D on everything you said in your post - Does your book have an interview in the back with the Random House Reader's Circle? Mine does and I love her statement about toning down rhetoric, which must have been on her mind since she wrote her story with such a 'Civil' tone.
You moved didn't you from the house you lived in most of your married life - did you have a difficult time letting go of things? I only had a few things that belonged to my son, including a small oriental carpet and would you believe an old piano that needed work along with a few baskets that he intended to bring back with him the next time - they are still as he left them in the storage room off the garage but what is precious to me is, I have a few of his books that were in his house in New Mexico. I like to feel them from time to time. And I notice my good friend, Charlotte often throws over her shoulders when she fills the bird feeders a heavy flannel shirt that belonged to Bill.
This is going to be a great month I am looking forward to reading something that will make me laugh and even shed a tear but will not be filled with some horrific events.
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Does your book have an interview in the back with the Random House Reader's Circle? Mine does and I love her statement about toning down rhetoric, which must have been on her mind since she wrote her story with such a 'Civil' tone.
Although this was not asked of me, my library book does not. It ends with a page and a half of Acknowledgements and then a paragraph About the Author.
How do their differences make the Major and Mrs. Ali an unlikely pair?
Mrs. Ali appears to me to be a thoughtful, kind woman. The Major, however, seems to me to be very "stiff upper lip," old fuddy-duddy / stern. His views on how he felt Roger should have been raised, his views of Roger's life now, seem out of touch with the reality of the world today
jane
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ahh Jane too bad it in not in your copy - the interview is a nice plus however my paperback edition was only purchased a couple of weeks ago and they may have added it along with the Random house Reading Group questions and topics for discussion.
Jane, tip - link in the heading - here it is - Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118) and read the remarks about the book written by Ken Gartrell, especially the list he includes in his post and then think of the Major - can you see the similarity ;) - I guess we would call it a metaphor - I love it - it is a great bit of writing and it makes me smile as I think of this proper British Major retired - in his wife's penny [housecoat] ;) :D
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Barbara, what an excellent point -- the writings in the Churchill Book
It matters far less how well you shoot than how well you behave. Hunting is a universal pleasure. Regardless of social class, shooters are true gentlemen.
Roger is not a bad sort underneath, but I think the Major finds him lacking in gentlemanly behavior. Showing up late, after the funeral, and the fact that Roger was putting his work plans ahead of committment to family. Also, I think the Major is appalled at Roger's extravagances -- the ostrich couch, for instance. The sweet little boy has not turned into the young man the Major expected.
And what about Sandy -- "Ernest?" Does anyone ever call the Major "Ernest?" What a jolt to his good breeding.
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Oh pedln I am so glad you caught it - yes, yes, yes, we are not a hunting society here - and less so are we wingshoot hunters - so that it was easy for most of us to overlook the real importance of this gun - but the more you see the Churchills mentioned in this story the more important the Churchill method of shooting is an analogy to the story - it is so much fun to see the story from that point of view.
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I'm not much interested in guns, hunting, or teapots, so I'll probably not finish this book. But when they were talking about going to the Duke's (Double D--what's that?) pond and shooting those cute little ducks they'd raised for the purpose, it reminded me of my dad and the one little duck that frequented the small pond on our farm in Iowa. My dad's joke, tongue-in-cheek, was that he could hardly wait till hunting season started so he could blast that little duck off our pond.
Our neighbor liked to shoot and eat pheasant and did so, even in the off-season. So that their little girl would not give them away to the sheriff (it was a small town), he never spoke of "pheasants" but always called them "stubble-ducks."
Is Jemima a common name in England? It reminds me of the pancake lady, except I think that one liked to smile.
Marj
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Do you have any legal heads in your family Marj - what do you think of his attitude on not dragging the Pettigrew name through the courts? Sounds like he and Bertie had a pretty good shared childhood that changed over time with their respective marriages.
Love the name of the Solicitors - they sound like they should be in a novel by Dickens "Tewkesbury and Teale" and then he is referred to as, "Old Mr. Twekesbury" how much fun.
Another word I do not remember ever seeing before - "oleaginous" - does anyone do crossword puzzles? The Major sees the word in the Sunday Times Crossword puzzle.
Another great turn of phrase - "...had squatted like a well-fed cuckoo in the midst of the Twekesbury clan" and the "strawberry-pink villa full of accountants" what a happy mix of pictures - we usually think of accountants in dark brown or grey - Helen Simonson must have a twinkle in her eye.
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Marj don't you think the story is making Ferguson into the loud crass businessman into Real Estate that is the typical characterization in a cartoon and since the Lord's name starts with a D - Lord Dagenham - the double D is a take off on Dallas, the American TV series that involved a large piece of land - that way Ferguson can make his company appear small in comparison so that Lord Dagenham can appear more important - 'Land versus Money' so that Ferguson can be "oleaginous". ;) I used it - I used it - :D
Unless, someone has another thought - maybe I missed Lord Dagenham's first name and he is a double D - However, Ferguson sure lays it on thick doesn't he in the next bit trying to make himself seem the lowly and rough, bricks and mortar kind of guy.
So different than the Major who fantasizes seeing Kipling walking on the promenade and reading Keats, Wordsworth and Samuel Johnson from his own library.
Don't you think it is fascinating that a young women could write about mature men's thinking as well as Helen Simonson has in this story? I wonder how she does that?
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Since the book is on my IPAD, I dont know about interviews, etc until I finish the book.. I dont like shooting, but the description of the guns was quite interesting.. It does seem to me that the Major resented his parents decision to split the guns. As the older, he seems to have believed he was the rightful owner.. The son simply amazes me,, why would he think his father should give him the money from an inheritance..
Simonson is young>> Now that is surprising. I was thinking more of a woman in her mid 40's or so..
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Hello,
Sorry I am joining in so late - and I'm not sure that I will be able to stick with it, as we move from Aberdeenshire to Edinburgh tomorrow, and will be staying in husband's rented flat until we find somewhere to buy - flat has no real internet (occasionally get signal from upstairs!), so my only access will be when I go to the local library.
Having been brought up in England - even if not in a village - I find all of Simonsons' descriptions completely convincing. The solicitors' firm in the pink building reminds me of so many small country towns, where professionals have set up in lovely old houses -Saffron Walden, in Essex, is a particular example as any of the houses there are different colours, very pretty, but it happens everywhere:
http://www.picturesofengland.com/England/Essex/Saffron_Walden/pictures/1129452.
The name of the firm is absolutely typical of many, many law firms - there used to be one in Cambridge, where I trained, called Few & Kester - locally known as Queue & Fester, as it was a shade fuddy-duddy.
I also find the portrayal of the major very accurate - there are so many retired army men who are just like him. Even the apron is just right.
As Barb has already said, there are huge Pakistani populations in the UK. Some have been here for generations. Some adhere very strictly to their Muslim beliefs, the women are covered from top to toe and walk behind the men, etc - there are still far too many "honour killings" when a girl runs away to avoid an arranged marriage - but others are much more "westernised". Meera Syal, who is an English born Pakistani comedian and writer, has written a good book about her childhood in the Pakistani community in (I think) Yorkshire - it's called "Anita and Me".
England may have been a nation of shopkeepers (I think that is attributed to Napoleon?) but these days almost every corner shop or convenience store is run by Pakistanis or Indians. I think the reason for this is that they are prepared to work very hard indeed, and to keep open very long hours, to make a go of things - which they generally do. In the village that I lived in in rural Aberdeenshire some years ago, there was a village shop run by a late middle aged Scottish couple who had taken it on, as so many people do, as some sort of retirement project. It was a miserable place, as the wife in particular seemed to resent you asking for anything - no matter what time I went in (and they were only open quite short hours) I was interrupting her soup making, hair washing, housework or whatever. They did not make you feel at all welcome. In the end they shut the shop, which was the only shop in the village, because they said it did not pay - but the reason for that was their attitude to everyone. Most Pakistani and Indian shops are much more welcoming and obliging, will get stuff in for you, deliver it, etc.
I don't think Mrs Ali's nephew is a bad person - I feel he's much more caught up by the rules of his own culture. He feels obliged to be the "man in charge" because Mrs Ali has no husband.
I also don't see Roger as a bad person. Again, he is a person caught up in what he thinks are society's expectations of him - to be financially successful, fit in with the social climbers who want to go on shoots, etc because they think it makes them look upper class. In this area - Deeside - lots of the estates have pheasant shoots, and the salmon fishing is also very popular. The people who come up to do it like to think they are joining the landed gentry - of course they aren't! The landed gentry - like Lord whatever he is called in the novel - are all on their uppers and need to pander to the whims of overpaid bankers, etc from London, because they need their money. They will never be admitted to the inner circle of the local aristocracy.
I know that Roger sounds money grabbing when he asks the major for money upfront, but I think many children are in this position - they feel, rightly or wrongly, desperate for money to get on the property ladder or whatever, and they see their parents sitting in valuable property (often far too large and expensive to heat) or hanging onto money. It's not surprising that they feel this way, when society seems to value people - at least in the UK - by the house that they have, the car that they drive, etc. Roger is just as oppressed in his way as Mrs Ali's nephew.
Marjifay - Jemima isn't a common name exactly, but it is one of those Victorian names (viz Beatrix Potter's Jemima Puddleduck) that is coming back into fashion, perhaps more especially amongst the upper middle classes - a bit like Ruby, Mabel, Maud, Violet, etc. My daughter is 16 and she used to have a school friend called Jemima. Marj, do stick with the book, it's not all twee teapots, or hunting - there is a real story underneath, and it develops as you go along.
Rosemary
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Oh dear, just when I was ready to send this book back to the library, along comes Rosemary with such an interesting post that put me in the mood to continue. I, too, am "in my uppers" LOL (love that expression). Interesting how you explained the motives of Roger and Mrs. Ali's nephew. Makes them more human. I loved your description of the Scottish couple who couldn't make a go of their shop because they definitely were not customer-oriented! Can't imagine a shop keeper who resented being asked for something! Funny, but sad. I will look for that book by Meera Syal.
Marj
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Rosemary, Good luck with the move. Thank you for the information; I'll miss your wonderful explanations of how the characters/scenes relate to the "real world".
Marj, thank you for commenting that you didn't care for the book. You motivated me to say I wasn't really impressed the first time I read it.
Hoping for some "Aha" moments as I try to see the characters - and, particularly, the writing style - through the eyes of more interpretive readers than I. :)
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Marji! Good! Good! Good! I just knew you would find much to like in this book - Listen to Callie! I too was turned off at the description of the ducklings trained to come at the sound of the whistle and then lured into the hurnters' path to be shot down as sport. But that's not the heart of the story. Thanks to Rosemary's post, you decided to hang on to the book a bit longer. I promise you, you will not regret it!
Rosemary - don't know how you manage with the move and all, but so happy that you were able to find some time for this discussion - your English background adds to our understanding and enjoyment. Thank you so much! Hopefully you will be able to get a signal on April 11 when the author comes here to visit with us. She plans to be here at 11 am, EST. to answer questions. If you are unable to be here, not to worry. We'll keep a list of questions that arise from this discussion in the heading for her consideration . If there is anything you'd like her to address, please post here and we'll add your questions to the link in the header
I sense shades of Barbara Pym in the village ladies, as they try to match Grace, the only single woman in the crowd, with the Major. Loved Simonson's descripton of the poor woman, as related by the Major after the "date" ..
"she "looked as ruched and tied as a holiday pork roast."
Oh my, the writing. Doesn't it make you feel so sorry for the woman? We will hear more about Grace as the story goes on, but she is doomed by the advice from the village ladies, isn't she? If only she had ignored the ladies, I sense the Major may have been interested in her.
Do you know if Edgecombe St. Mary is a real place? Or the seaside town of Hazelbourne-on-sea? When I search, I keep coming up with references to Helen Simonson's story, so I'm assuming these are fictitious names. Thanks for the picture of Saffron-Walden. Something to envision as we read.
(http://www.picturesofengland.com/img/L/1129452.jpg)
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Barbara asks: Don't you think it is fascinating that a young women could write about mature men's thinking as well as Helen Simonson has in this story? I wonder how she does that? Shall we include this question for her, Barbara?
Steph, about Helen Simonson's age - When inviting her to join our discussion, I asked her how she came to understand the mind of a 68 year old man so well - whether the Major was based on someone she knew. (She didn't respond to that question but here is what she did say -
"I am 47 and I simply refused to think that the Major would think any differently just because he is twenty years older. I assume I will be the same sould at 90 that I was at 29, though perhaps a bit smarter. "
What do you think? I'm not quite so sure I agree with her. Do you think the Major was much the same person twenty years ago?
So many good thoughts expressed in the opening day excitement. Please come back, everyone. Your observations are adding so much to the discussion. I would love to hear more about the attraction between Mrs. Ali (will she remain Mrs. Ali throughout the story? Mrs. Ali and the Major?) I don't understand what she sees in him. I know, I know, she knows that he reads books. She is sympathetic because he has just lost his brother. Is there anything else? He likes the sound of her voice, her laugh...he thinks "it sounds like singing." - But what does she see in him?. Does she pity him? Is he sick - what do you think is wrong with him?
Back this evening. Love hearing from you!
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I was thinking more of a woman in her mid 40's or so..
Somewhere it said she was 46. Young is in the eyes of the beholder. I think my crew or 40 and 50 somethings are young. But they’ve been young for a long time.
It does seem to me that the Major resented his parents decision to split the guns. As the older, he seems to have believed he was the rightful owner..
Yes, Steph, and I’m thinking maybe Bertie had a few resentments of his own regarding the inheritance. I thought it interesting, the Major’s explanation to Nancy about the inheritance laws (what’s the legal term?) and why they were important.
Regarding Roger – perhaps he’s more his mother’s boy than his father’s son. I think that Nancy was not held to defined ways of society.
JoanP, I just saw your posts now. I'm not sure I would agree with Simonson about thinking the same in 20 years. That's almost like saying that nothing is going to influence over a 20-year period. Will have to ponder that a bit more.
Good luck with the move Rosemary, and as always for your marvellous and very pertinent input. Re: the names. I'm glad to see Ruby is making a comeback in the UK. And here too, as my youngest grand (age 4) is Ruby, after her great-grandmother. (Her mother had to decide between Nana and Aunt Violet.) I haven't seen any young Mauds or Mabel yet.
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Thank you so much Rosemary for helping us have a better picture of the life represented in this story - I would never have guessed the colorful houses as an ordinary part of the English landscape - it does sound cheery and fun. Having the photo of how the houses look painted these Birthday cupcake colors helps - I wonder if neighbors get together and decide their color choices - Joan thanks for uploading the photo for us - it also prettied up the page :)
Rosemary I was particularly pleased to hear your interpretation of Roger, the Major's son - even the niece, Marjorie's daughter sounds as if they have little respect for their respective parents - later, in the story I thought Roger becomes a sympathetic character however, the green eyes over parent's lifetime accumulations maybe understandable in the competitive society they live but is sure is not how most of the older generation thought they were raising their children. That, and the flagrant lack of concern for what the older generation assumed were manner set in stone sure is jarring.
Having only completed a 2 day class on working with the senior's selling or buying homes we were divided into age groups with a full day devoted to understanding the 'differences' between how the various age groups operate, their attitude about money, possessions, responsibility etc. Amazing to learn those who are very technologically savvy with an attitude that life should include a large amount of play are the generations who in many ways think like and understand those over age 67. This is the generation that has accumulated the fastest the most wealth and delay marriage - this is the group who are under the age of 30 where as, for various reasons the two groups between feel overwhelmed with responsibility and would like the assistance that money can bring as well as, feeling they, like Mrs. Ali's nephew, should be in charge of their parents. Having your picture of that in this story is certainly a thought provoker. Thanks...
Marj it is hard to read how we treat animals as play things - it is different when we needed the hunt to provide food or, as we know, we need the hunt to manage the size of the animals population since we have taken away all the natural predictors and it is cruel to animals to allow them to over populate - I am so glad you see other aspects of the story and that Rosemary's post was such a help.
Rosemary your story of the older couple who purchased the small grocery in their retirement was almost the same story of the store in my daughter's small town. Charlie, the owner was a living icon, well loved and when he passed away a newly retired couple purchased the store that still had a section left by Charlie with the 1920's and 30's products as a museum and tribute to his father - everyone was saddened that the new owner got rid of most of it and they also were unfriendly, gruff acting put upon. So with modern transportation more folks drove the 20 minutes to the next town and these folks in just over a year closed the store.
Steph so you have chosen to read this on your Ipad - do they offer links to enlarge on the story like the photo that Joan uploaded for us or, is it because the story is on a device where the Internet is at your beck and call that it is easy to stop as you read and research something? I noticed a few folks sitting in the library last week reading on their Ipad or Kindle or Nook and they all had smiles on their faces. I am thinking it is because they are getting a kick over using a new technical devise not imagined a few years ago. Does the devise allow you to scoot back and forth breezing through the entire book before settling in for the read with chapter one?
Callie I sure hope you do have a couple of those aha moments - for me I have already had one with Rosemary's explanation of the thinking of Roger keeping up with the competitive life of his generation.
Joan you did it - wonderful - the author will be visiting on April 11 at 11: - let's see - in the mid-West that would be at 10: CDT and the Mountains states it would be 9: and the West coast will still have their coffee in hand at 8: - is Scotland 6 hours ahead of the East coast? With daylight savings it gets all mixed up - but assuming so maybe 5: BST in the evening would be the time to turn on the computer???
Joan you picked up on Grace - she seems like a by-product of the typical English village story doesn't she - in many ways she and the Major seem to have more in common than the Major and Mrs. Ali - Grace does know roses - at this point in the story they all are fitting a stereotype that as the story goes on maybe that will become the tug and pull setting us up for the climax.
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What good posts, so fun to read!
The cottages - how many rooms do you imagine are contained in one of the two-story cottages. So colorful, so pretty. Do they just hose them down now and then to keep them so clean? Is that middle structure in the picture an overhead garage door?
I have a question about a village; how it is designated a village? Is it by population? I'm curious because when we moved in 1961 from the city, we bought a house in a "village" and it was so classified because it had less than 3000 people. When it moved past that figure - and too quickly it seemed to us - it became a city and now is about 50,000 population.
When I read about the Major's disappointment over not inheriting the gun from his brother, I felt he was being a bit foolish. What does he think is going to happen to the guns when he is gone? Will Roger inherit and keep them in the family? Unless Roger improves his relationship with his father, I wouldn't trust him with the guns, would you?
As many of you have said, guns are not too popular - well, I should say - in parts of America. As I thought about what I was typing I remember all the hullaboloo over gun control by the NRA. Our right to bear arms! We've heard that enough haven't we?
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Just saw your post Pedln - Nancy is interesting - part of me thinks it is so easy to make a deceased loved one into our own image of who they were. So I am not clear on Nancy - but I thought it endearing the battle the Major had over using the tea cups that he remembered and associated with Nancy. I have a table cloth and my Grandmother's china that I use when we have Thanksgiving or a family meal in November and I can never to this day start the meal without saying something about my Grandmother - I can see her hands smoothing out the cloth when she laid a table. Little things that keep the lives of folks meaningful - and for most of us it is just that - not big life changing events that we remember but the little things. Maybe it says something about our living little lives but I find it a gentle comfort to have these memories of little things.
Ella - glad to see your post - and so, you are not sympathetic to the Major's attachment to those guns - ah another view point - I wonder what his attachment is all about - do you think it is left over sibling rivalry for his father's attention - he certainly thought as eldest he should be treated as historically the eldest is given a special nod. Do you think it had something to do with his caring of the guns as compared to his opinion of Bertie's, a younger brother's willingness to care for the gun?
I guess that is often what happens and why families have a difficult time during the reading of the will - we all think this one or that one is more or less capable of carrying on the family traditions, heritage and memories by what is entrusted in their care.
Yes, the NRA had us all concerned as if showing us as a people where every home was a stockade ready to fight and kill anyone who crosses the property line - I must say the difference in guns is how many of us measure gun control - the concern here is for animals that are allowed to multiply indiscriminately - it is not pretty - the species becomes weaker, more prone to decease and under stress biology kicks in with even more births - most cities do not have this concern but there are many, including Austin as well as ranches where this is a balancing act.
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Ella I thought I heard somewhere that a town has a church and a city has a cathedral where as a village has neither - I am thinking of the PBS Lark Rise to Candleford that we get to see every Saturday night - the village, Lark Rise is small - a gathering of cottages - and Candleford is larger with a Tavern and a Post Office and now a new clock tower that is part of the story - hmmm maybe that is the difference - a Post Office - but come to think of it there are places here in Texas where a wide place on the road has a post office/gas station/coffee bar/ grocery store in a building the size of a one bedroom condo and that is not a town much less even a village. Hmm there must be an answer...
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Barb, I found these definitions:
Village A small group of dwellings in a rural area, usually ranking in size between a hamlet and a town.
Hamlet: A small village.
Town:
a. A population center that is larger than a village and smaller than a city. (Gee, these are being helpful! ::)
b. A territorial and political unit governed by a town meeting, especially in New England.
c. Informal A city: New York is a big town.
d. Chiefly British A rural village that has a market or fair periodically.
e. The residents of a town: The whole town was upset at the news.
2. An area that is more densely populated or developed than the surrounding area: going into town to shop.
3. The residents of a community in which a university or college is located, as opposed to the students and faculty: a dispute pitting town against gown.
4. A group of prairie dog burrows.
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:D :D :D I love #4 - you've been to Lubbock lately hehehe. Do you have a few 'towns' of such inhabitants in OK?
Thanks Callie, looks like you found some keys to the differences. The idea of a fair or market makes sense. Some of the English towns have a permanent covered almost arbor like stone structure that was the old market site - they are usually small so it must have been the center of the market where everyone probably came with their cart or laid out their goods on the ground nearby.
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You've got a wonderful discussion going on here. I am in fact surrounded by hunters. In some ways she was quite bold in including "hunting." It's somewhat in some places and societies anachronistic. I wonder if the Major is too.
There are hunters and then there are hunters. They don't all shoot pet ducks. (I don't know anybody who would shoot as described here. I wonder why that bit is in the book, actually). However I have heard and read about shooting situations which one would normally think unfair extended to other game, depending on who shoots it and where they shoot. I think hunting including fox hunting plays a large part in some British society, doesn't it? With all the distaste that hunting in general can bring in some.
I seem to remember the movie Queen with Helen Mirren and the stag. I recall that Prince Philip took the boys out hunting after their mother died, or so I read.
The prized family gun, what an issue! How well she wrote about the stupendous, if you are a hunter or gun collector, PAIR of them, in this book. A matched pair of Churchills in your family, belonging to the father, passed down. Imagine such a thing! We could picture if it if were the Krupp diamond, perhaps, or a silver service belonging to the family. An old prized gun is the same to a hunter. If you had a matched pair and you were a father, how would you leave them to two sons? How would you show favoritism or avoid doing that? Should the oldest get them both? (You could probably write a book on that alone, the ramifications of wills and leaving the prized guns belonging to an ancestor). I LOVED the different sons' reactions to the guns, the thread runs throughout the entire book, and the Major's pride in his which led to all kinds of things, and the difference in the generations as to how they regarded them, such fine writing.
I am amazed at the accuracy I've seen in her book and just reading your posts it appears there is a lot more than I ever suspected! I would read anything she wrote, there's a lot of truth, to me, under the plot. You've picked a winner. :)
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Barb, I remember prairie dogs well from when I lived in Amarillo. And, yes, western Oklahoma certainly does have prairie dog towns!
While eating lunch, I remembered that I'm to do the Children's Sermon at church tomorrow. Oops!
I've been working on it and, so, haven't yet delved into the book.
However, reading the posts about the guns makes me wonder if the Major considered the gun heritage as a primogeniture thing?
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Callie, I think he does regard it as a primogeniture thing. He'll keep the guns as a pair until he dies, and then leave them to his son, to pass on to his son. Somehow, Roger doesn't understand this - any more than Bertie did. Ella, I seem to remember Roger telling his father that Jemina wants them to sell them - the two cousins - and split the money. I'l bet Marjorie would go for that. Roger says he could really use the money. I'll bet he does, considering the high maintenance girl friend of his. Did you notice what those guns are worth? 100,000 pounds - for the pair? Am I remembering that right? When would you say this story is set? Were there any details that date the story? Today they would be worth around $160,000 - if sold as a pair. Can't see Marjorie just handing over Bertie's gun to the Major. It's understandable that she would go to extremes to hold on to the one - but the real value is in the pair. Can't understand why Bertie failed to mention this in his will. Had Marjorie convinced him that the days of primogeniture were over? It seems that the Major must face the fact - he's not going to get the matching gun.
Ginny, what do you think of rabbit-hunting? I used to call it "bunny hunting" when one of my son's friends would brag about the fun he had rabbit hunting with his father.
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Callie I wonder too if that is what is behind the Major's nose being out of joint for evidently years over his father splitting the set. Had to look up the word you used - I love it don't you when we have to look up a word - I love how quickly we can do this online to the point recently I realized how much I was missing fetching the heavy old Dictionary and propping it up to thumb through...more examples of saving energy that may not be the best course of action at this stage in life.
pri·mo·gen·i·ture
/ˌpraɪməˈdʒɛnɪtʃər, -ˌtʃʊər/ Show Spelled[prahy-muh-jen-i-cher, -choor] –noun
1.the state or fact of being the firstborn of children of the same parents.
2.Law . the system of inheritance or succession by the firstborn, specifically the eldest son.
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Ginny, what do you think of rabbit-hunting? I used to call it "bunny hunting" when one of my son's friends would brag about the fun he had rabbit hunting with his father.
I personally am opposed to hunting in any form. :) I don't know anybody who hunts rabbits, tho I do seem to remember vaguely it was quite popular where I grew up in Bucks County Pennsylvania. (Not named for, but home to, Pearl Buck).
That's a wonderful point, Callie.
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I'm caught up! Have read the first six chapters.
Someone wondered about the time frame of the story. Roger's girlfriend, Sandy, says her apartment is "near the new Tate". On the Tate web site (http://www.tate.org.uk/about/theorganisation/history/:)
I found that the Tate Modern opened in May, 2000.
Of course, Sandy could have meant the new Tate being developed.
However, Roger has a cell phone. Would that mean early 2000's?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6
April 8 - April 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 6:
..."his sandwich seemed as appetizing now as two rubber mats filled with horsehair. He pushed the plate away and signaled Tom to bring another lager.")
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
April 1-7~ Chapters 1 - 6
1. Some of you have commented on H. Simonson's beautiful writing. What is it about her writing style that you find so pleasing?
2. How do their differences make the Major and Mrs. Ali an unlikely pair? What is their common attraction?
3. What do the Churchills represent to the Major so that he struggles with Marjorie’s legal claim to the guns? What in the Major’s mind, would he be selling if the guns were sold to the highest bidder?
4. There are differences in how families keep or dispose of their departed loved one's possessions. How did you or your family members make the choice? How did you feel using something your loved one held as special?
5 What are the Major's feelings for his son? Do you think he's fair in his interpretation of Roger's motives and actions?
6. What sort of subtle prejudices or stereotyping do you find in these opening chapters?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118);
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Missed that - sure sounds like you've nailed the dates Callie - wow...so it is a current story. Stop to think some of the characteristics of the younger set like Roger would not have fit an earlier time but now thanks to you Callie we really have it dated.
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I'm caught up with the six chapters too - stayed up late last night to read them so everything hasn't really settled in my mind quite yet.
The time frame seems to be contemporary but now and then I found a few things which seemed somewhat 'dated' - can't think what exactly.
The Major is a trifle set in his ways as perhaps an ex military man cum English master would be. He expects people to make concessions to his way of thinking and he thinks people should come to him - Mrs Ali for instance 'had not called in to check on him' Despite his self proclaimed 'good manners' he himself had been ill-mannered toward Mrs Ali by accepting the ride home from the funeral with Roger when she was already there waiting for him - yet still he expects her to call on him...
The Major is drawn as being a trifle 'old fashioned' to me. One of my brothers was a military man of rank who despite being around ten years older than the Major was much more 'with it' as far as the modern world goes. The book mentions Pettigrew being born in Lahore to a military man of the Raj but I didn't notice where Pettigrew had served during his service. I doubt it would have been in India as he wouldn't have graduated from military college until around 1960. My brother graduated in 1952 so I can't help but compare his and the Major's service careers. I'm trying to think of which arenas the British army was involved in during Pettigrew's time - does anyone know?
The guns are interesting and appear to be a focal point of the story - they are an obsession with the Major.
Churchill guns are real - this is from the E.J Churchill Gunmakers website:
E.J.Churchill Gun makers
The E. J. Churchill Gunmakers have been synonymous with fine hand made English shotguns for over 100 years, today E. J. Churchill Gunmakers still uphold these qualities throughout its range of the very best hand built guns and rifles.
The newest addition to our portfolio is the E. J. Churchill Continental range, a collection of elegant, reliable side by side shotguns built to our specification by our Spanish partner.
These guns have all the attributes of a traditional English shotgun at an affordable price.
Young Roger seems to be somewhat of a trial to his father. I think he is not all bad but seems to be immature and still trying to find himself. He is easily influenced by others - their lifestyle and what they have is perfect to him and he wants it too as long as it is expensive and perhaps trendy. Perhaps he will grow during the story.
We have no compunction in rabbit hunting in Australia - rabbits were introduced into this country in order for bored Englishmen in the colony to have a little hunting - they overran the entire continent and have had to be destroyed. We are still dealing with the problem today.
Kangaroos are also sometimes in plague proportions. Farmers and graziers go 'roo shooting at night to cull the numbers but at least the 'roos have a sporting chance though once they get caught in the truck's spotlight they are usually a frozen target.
I would never have connected Lord Dagenham being called 'Double D' by Ferguson as having anything to do with 'Dallas' but can't see where the 'Double' comes into it. Dagenham is not a Duke but one of the 'landed gentry' and impoverished at that whom the Major hopes to 'talk up' to the rank of an Earl for Marjorie's benefit in the hope of getting his hands on the other gun.
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I loved the picture of the houses all in different colors.. If you visit
Charleston, you possibly can remember their rainbow row as well. I just envisioned villages in England as being thatche and plain colors.
I like the Major.. maybe because I am 73.. He does allow himself to be bullied by the village women, No idea why.. I am not so hidebound as he is, but I do have some things that I wince at with my own children.. They are late 40's, but still seem to regard tshirts as ok for anything.. Sigh.
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I have read the book and enjoyed it greatly. I thought at first it might be "fuddy-duddy" but as I went along it was a very modern and charming novel. In fact I would call it touching.
Both my parents were English and I sometimes think i relate better to English thought patterns than to American ones.
However one of your questions caught my interest. What happened to the British army from 1960 to 2000?
(the probable time of the Major's service).I looked it up and here is a summary:
Today the British army is the third largest in Europe. British troops are deployed in Kosovo,Cyprus, Afghanistan and Germany. Though the British Raj is no more the army continued to fight Colonial wars in Aden, Cyprus,Kenya and Malaya. In 1982 they recaptured the Falkland Islands from Argentina. Probably the biggest force was deployed in N.Ireland to support the Republican paramilitary groups. Some 50,00 troops fought in the first Gulf War.
My questions to the author are: "Where did she picture the majority of his service took place?" And secondly "How did his service influence his personality?"
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Like you Steph I think of rural Britain with earth tone homes, especially a house described as having a thatched roof - but then in the story wasn't it the solicitor's - no the accountant's office that was in the strawberry colored building.
Jude the book almost sounds as if he was in India as well, but that was his father - let's see the Major - hmmm maybe the Falklands - remember a few years ago and Britain was fighting for the Falkland Island's off South America - and wasn't the British army in both Korea and war in the Balkans - and what about South Africa or was that all South African troops. Of course he could have been serving and never leave - oh wait a minute - maybe Ireland - but anyhow, he could have never left Britain and still served as a Major.
Gum I think the talk of killing wildlife is something those who live next to or in the middle of nature see differently - Please folks, even hunting bunnies it really is so humane - you have no idea what it is like - we are going through it here in Austin and it is horrible - nightmares are frequent and every night-sound is jarring.
Please, the hunters, regardless how macho and insensitive they sound is soooo much better compared to when there is no longer hunting in the area. We have upset the balance of nature - even the ranches and farms upset the balance. What we have done by building in a pristine area, bringing livestock into new range, enlarging our cities and town is as cruel to most animals as all the stories of forced breeding we read about that is the destruction of female dogs and cats.
Few communities wants the deer and they try all sorts of techniques to think that by not feeding them they will go away - they don't - we have lovely lawns where years ago there was scrub land - important - when land is used for another purpose it disrupts the area that a group of animals call home - many animals, especially white tail deer only have a range of a couple of miles - therefore, herds were naturally separate.
Because an area was disrupted that herd moves into the area of another herd providing more does/hinds for breeding - plus the biggie - when a herd or flock or any wild animal grouping is under stress there is a biological fact - they reproduce more litters, fawns etc. and more numbers for each birth. Once there is a spike in the size of the herds we have more grazing and many more bushes, trees, etc. that were never touched before are eaten. Another concern - you know the story - large animals are like 2 year olds that dart or run across the road with no concern.
Rabbits are also pushed into new areas already occupied - remember the movie Watership Down - only there is no peaceful community on top of the hill - folks do not like that the plants surrounding their homes are eaten to the root and at night you can hardly step out the front door without tripping over a rabbit.
Here in Austin up till about 20 to 25 years ago it was natural for a member of the family to shoot an animal as the family's meat - in season or out it was a wink of the eye we all knew about and a deer was taken or a wild turkey or a few of those rabbits - the hunters are no longer and shooting a gun in town is no longer safe. Oh a few young people take down an animal now and then at night with a bow and arrow but not enough to make a dent in the over population that came about with more lawns for forage and more stress multiplying the numbers. More births weaken the animals with a weak strain, an imitation of its wild state then animals are subject to disease that can affect us.
Even using the land for ranching alters the balance mostly again, stress leads to more births. Multiple births decimates the land so that it is less than scrub land within a short few years.
And so removal - ha - that is where visions of Dachau take over - where there is a large concentration of animals attempted is a sweep using nets, with panicked animals scrambling for their life, banging into rocks and scraping themselves on the streets so they are bloody only to escape for one more night. Then the shooting starts - using a silencer with men chasing animals in and out of every nook and corner till for instance a herd of deer are down from over 70 to less than 20 which is what the area can support and still have healthy animals.
As to the rabbits that is ohhh - when they are netted bullets are not wasted so that these guys are carrying by their hind legs 10 or more at a time tossing them into the bed of a pickup into a nightly mound.
And so, unless everyone thinks once we move into an area that gives us the power and rights to get rid of all the wild animals then please regard hunters as caring for wildlife - they are the only predators for some of the animals - few of us want coyotes racing through our neighborhoods eating all the dogs and cats that are out at night just to keep a natural predator for the wildlife - and so we have to take responsibility for the disruption we cause. Leaving them alone to multiply - biology takes over and we are responsible for cruelty to female animals.
Yes, I know a soapbox - but it is a brutal experience to witness that is far worse than a hunter bagging a few animals each season- with many hunters the population of wildlife is kept to what is healthy for the land, the strain and ourselves. If nothing else hunters save us the cost of foundation plants and fewer risks of auto accidents.
I do agree that any animal sport can be taken too far - just as we learned of chicken fighting and dog fighting some animal hunts pander to ego rather than to the responsibility we all carry because we share a world with wild life.
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Sorry folks - I just had to get it out there - you have no idea the horror that is when we think animals are better off not hunted - I will honestly say no more...
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Gum, so glad you've caught up. This discussion is moving so fast! You and Jude ask what I sense to be an important question regarding where the Major had served in the military. - What do we know at this point? The Major's father received those treasued guns from the hands of the Maharajah. "An Indian prince honorable enough to reward a British officer's courageous service in the hours when all around were howling for British eviction."
As you have pointed out, the story seems to focus on keeping those guns...while the rest of the family seems to be howling for the money that can be gotten for them.
We have this story, and then we have the Pakistani presence in England. Can anyone fill in the possible connection? Rosemary has explained that there are many Pakistani shops and businesses throughout England - on every street corner. Do we know when they came to England?
Jude, do you suspect that the Major had an unpleasant experience while in service, which would explain why he wants to hold on to the old English traditions?
Will put your questions for Helen Simonson in the heading right now.
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Steph, we're going down to Charleston in two weeks. Will watch for the colored houses. I remember them in Savannah - also, Cape May - in New Jersey.
And speaking of New Jersey - what did you think of the American industrialist, Frank Ferguson? Is Lord Dagenham really his friend? Frank - "Double F" seems quite familiar with him - choosing to disregard "His Lordship," in favor of "Double D." I don't think this had anything to do with Dallas, though. Didn't it slip, just once in these opening chapters that his first name started with a D? Hence "Double D?"
Back later this evening...some interesting comments made today about how touching you are finding the story. Me too. I'll share my favorite incident...and wonder if it got to you too.
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Wow - found this great site for the Kipling Society that includes this page of Kipling for Soldiers (http://www.kipling.org.uk/soldiers_fra.htm) - The page includes links to some of his stories.
And here is a link to the Kipling society of Australia (http://www.kiplingsocietyaustralia.com/)
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Here is a blog with the list of every character named in the book Character list: Major Pettigrew's Last Stand (http://chinnbookchats.blogspot.com/2010/11/major-pettigrews-last-stand-by-helen.html) Looks like you nailed it Joan on Frank Ferguson, a rich American from N.J.
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Great info Jude - how quickly these wars go by and yet, they seem to be a greater part of life than we realize.
Today the British army is the third largest in Europe. British troops are deployed in Kosovo, Cyprus, Afghanistan and Germany. Though the British Raj is no more the army continued to fight Colonial wars in Aden, Cyprus,Kenya and Malaya. In 1982 they recaptured the Falkland Islands from Argentina. Probably the biggest force was deployed in N.Ireland to support the Republican paramilitary groups. Some 50,00 troops fought in the first Gulf War
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This web site does not seem to be complete however it does add some more history to the Sussex Regiment (http://www.btinternet.com/~the35thfootproject/laterhist.html)
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I don't think I have ever had a samosa (http://www.food-india.com/recipe/R026_050/R032.htm) - looking to find out what they were here is a recipe - potatoes hmmm.
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The blog listing all the characters still doesn't enlighten us as to why Lord Dagenham is 'Double D' - it just refers to him as Lord Dagenham - lord of the village. So we're still in the dark on that one.
Jude: thanks for the info concerning the British Army's deployments during the Major's likely service. The later deployments would probably be after his time - He would have retired probably in his early 40s - sometime around early1980's by my reckoning if he is 68 when the story opens in 200? Pettigrew then spent some time as a schoolmaster after he retired from the army - It's not vitally important but just interested me.
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Gumtree
Somehow what you wrote loosened something in my brain. If the major only spent 20 to 25 years in the army and then became a schoolmaster then he is holding onto those Churchill guns to fill a hole in his own self esteem. Perhaps his career, as opposed to his fathers career, was a bit dowdy?
His son certainly didn't follow in his military footsteps. He looks upon the guns not as a family heirllom but as a source of cash. Oh, how Britain has changed in the last hundred years. Perhaps that is one of the points of the novel. Intended, or not intended goal? Ask the author.
America, especially where I live in the heart of Silicon valley is full to overflowing with Indian and Pakistan engineers and their families,including their old folks. There is one elderly gentleman dressed in native garb, including his head gear, who, when he catches me gardening, stands and talks and points in his native tongue.I don't understand a word but do smile and nod.Most of the older folks around here have not adopted the American way of dressing so very often we see colorful costumes (actually clothes) going by.
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owww good point Jude
Perhaps his career, as opposed to his fathers career, was a bit dowdy? His son certainly didn't follow in his military footsteps.
Gumtree someone will figure it out - the double D - the advantage of a group read...
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Jude, I think you and Gum answered you own question about the effect of the Major's military service on his personaity. As you point out, he did not have the same stellar military success his father had had - no one presented him with anything like the Churchills in gratitude for his bravery. Shall I leave the question in the queue for the author, or are you satisfied with your conclusion? You and Gum make quite a pair!
There were a number of references to the casual use of first names...something the British did not do, but the Americans think nothing of. Roger's girlfriend, Sandy - remember her? The one with those "scimitar legs" and that short skirt? She called the Major "Ernest" when they first met. (He winced at that, do you remember? What do your children's friends - and spouses call you? I'm curious?)
Then of course there is Frank Ferguson, calling Lord Dagenham Double D. Since you aren't satisfied with my idea that "Double F" (Frank Ferguson) is referring to his friend as "Double D" because those are his initials - and I admit I've paged through the book looking for mention of Lord Dagenham's first name without success - I've added that to the list of questions for the author.)
The one that really gets me is the Major who continues to call his friend Mrs. Ali, "Mrs.Ali" - Do you think he will ever as her to "tutoyer"? - that's French for using the familiar pronouns instead of the more formal "vous" How long will it be before he calls her by her first name? Will she remain Mrs. Ali throughout? Maybe Frank Ferguson will call her by her first name? Or Sandy with the scimitar legs?
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Barbara,while paging through the chapters looking for the Dagenham name, I came across those samosas you mentioned. Mrs. Ali keeps a plate of them on the counter in her shop.. Do you think one would find them in any Pakistani shop - or is this her specialty. They look yummy!
(http://images.media-allrecipes.com/site/allrecipes/area/community/userphoto/small/329715.jpg)
"These stuffed savory pastries are a traditional Indian favorite. Lamb meat and spices are cooked together to create a mouthwatering filling for the easy to make dough. The recipe may seem complex, but it's actually fairly simple"
I'll leave the "roly polys" for someone else to look up. Remember them? Tom serves them in the club on Fridays only...what's your guess?
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Roly Poly Pudding - They used to be very popular in Britain and I believe they were standard boarding school fare. My mother made them occasionally during the war. They're not exactly health food.
You need a suet crust pastry and your favourite jam (jelly to you) - just roll out the pastry, spread the jam in the centre leaving an edge around the margin - wet the edges of pastry with water and then roll it up and pinch the edges together. Put it in a floured cloth and boil in a large saucepan of water for about 1-1/2 to 2 hours. Serve with custard, or cream.
You can use other fillings like golden syrup, even honey or fruit - apples with a few raisins are nice.
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I agree that the Major did not have a stellar military career - after all he did only achieve the rank of Major. OK but fairly pedestrian - the rank of a full Colonel or Brigadier would indicate he had had a successful active career.
First Names are de rigeur in Australia - I can't think of many who call me Mrs. these days. My children have long called me by my Christian name and as they grew up they started to introduce me to their friends that way - I rather like it except when a 15 year old in the pharmacy or somewhere addresses me by my first name -I'm getting cranky nowadays.
The Major calls Mrs Ali by that name because he is a formal sort of guy - he thinks of her as Mrs Ali too - at least for the moment.
There are many Indian and Pakistani folk living in Australia - some have assimilated, some not - some wear traditional clothing - some are very westernised in that respect. They all maintain the cultural values of their own country and will dress traditionally on their special days. It is the ones born and educated here who break away and become westernised.
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This article is interesting regarding Pakistanis in England:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Pakistanis
And this paragraph:
"British Pakistanis have the second highest relative poverty rate in Britain, ahead of only British Bangladeshis, though some have established highly successful businesses. A large number of British Pakistanis are self-employed, with a significant proportion working as taxi drivers or in family-run businesses in the retail sector" - Wikipedia
I believe Mrs. Ali's husband was a very patient, nice fellow, unlike the nephew, and the two of them, husband and wife, ran the shop together. Perhaps the nephew needs a wife, but then where would Mrs. Ali go. She doesn't want to live with her relatives and become a babysitter.
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Gumtree I was fine reading along the recipe for the Roly poly - dough spread with jam till you after it is rolled it is boiled :o - now that I didn't expect - deep fried - maybe, or baked but my goodness boiled - I guess when they are lifted from the boiling water they look more like a giant dumpling - the taste I imagined hmm not so sure now.
First names have taken on a life haven't they - we were brought up to call close friends of my parents as Aunt or Uncle before the first name - it was a bit of a shock to hear my daughter no longer call me Mom - now she goes back and forth between Mom and Barbara.
I notice their friends often calling me grandma since my relationship with my grandboys is so front and center and they have children the same age and are the children are all good friends.
The Major comes across to me as someone who lives by form - his mannerisms I do not even think are based on respect for the person as much as respect for form.
Ella interesting that the poverty level is so low among the Pakistanis - I guess it takes a couple of generations to build - from what I understand they left everything behind when the big switch happened between Packston and India. Generations of living in the same house and if you were on a piece of land working the same land for generations so that there was no housing expense in the budget and now all of a sudden they were starting from scratch. Of course we are used to seeing that phenomenon here in the states as each wave of immigrants start with nothing and it takes a couple of generations of hard work with self denial to give the next generation the leg up till they are in the mainstream..
Thanks Ella for the link - most helpful...
How about the books that Mrs. Ali arranged to have available to her from the library - wow - even the Major's choice of reading material is not shabby. Have you read any of the authors and titles mentioned?
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I noticed that the Major isn't reading any current books, though.
His wife has been gone for six years and it seems to me that he sort of "faded into the woodwork" when she was no longer a reason for him to "socialize" in the village.
So typical that the village ladies are still trying to get him and Grace together. Why do so many, especially those who are "coupled", think that anyone who isn't...should be? This especially seems to apply to those who used to be part of a couple.
Question 6 asked about subtle prejudices. The one that jumped out at me was the local ladies (finally) going into the Ali's store but never including her in any village events - and referring to them as "our Pakistanis".
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Callie don't you love it "our" Pakistanis - nothing sublet about the village ladies is there. Grace comes across as a nice person who could even soften the Major's right angles.
Alec seems quite the cut-up - teasing the ladies in committee that he is an Indian, and yet, in a typical man's way asking after him while they were playing golf.
This story, although recent in time is reminding me of the Mapp and Lucia (http://www.amazon.com/Mapp-Lucia-MAKE-WAY-LUCIA/dp/0445042176/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1301950608&sr=1-17) series by Benson that Ginny introduced us to years ago. Maybe, because village life does not change that much.
Some years ago I found and purchased a series of Mapp and Lucia on video tape and while reading Major Pettigrew's Last Stand I often see the characters as those in Mapp and Lucia. The golf, the ladies in committee, the Major's decorum, even the local grocery except in the 1920s and 30s there was not yet an influx of Pakistani immigration that started with the division of Pakistan and India with mostly religious leanings determining which nation would be home.
When you read, do you make a mental picture of the characters? If you do, how are you envisioning the look of the Major and some of the other characters?
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Callie, Skipping a tiny bit ahead, in chapt. 8 the major says that "It was one of the things he had to look out for, living alone--it was important to keep up standards, to not let things become fuzzy around the edges." I think this pretty much describes the major. Perhaps his years in the military re-enforced his idea of the importance of keeping up his standards.
I loved the Major's thoughts on his son when he stated that he wondered how he featured in his son''s calendar. He imagined himself flagged with a small yellow sticky note-important but not time sensitive, perhaps. I love this book and the author's way of expressing thoughts. She paints vivid characters.
Sally
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I remember thinking about giving up early in our book, when I read it the first time. I am so very happy that I continued to read. IMO, our author paints pictures with the words she uses.
I love the major, and Mrs. Ali. The only character so far that I dislike is Roger's girlfriend. When she presumed to call the Major, by his first name, she turned me off. I can't imagine calling anyone 30 years my senior, by their first name when first meeting them. I am stuned that Roger finds her attractive.
I find the major kind, sensitive, and lonely. Mrs. Ali is intelligent, gentle and lonely, too. They both are widowed, lov books, and find much to talk about with each other. They both enjoy most of the traditions in their lives.
Roger suffers from too much hubris. Material things are very important to hiim. Both f his parents seem more down to earth. I think that both Roger, and Mrs. Ali's nephew are cut from the same cloth.
Sheila
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You had me chuckling again Sally - it was such a great phrase wasn't it -
flagged with a small yellow sticky note-important but not time sensitive,
Interesting Sheila, I think that both Roger, and Mrs. Ali's nephew are cut from the same cloth.
Hadn't thought of that - they are both full of themselves aren't they - and they both have definite ideas how the older generation they believe they are responsible for should act to benefit their viewpoint - how else do you see the similarity?
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"IMO, our author paints pictures with the words she uses."
Sheila, I was just thinking along those same lines. The strength of the author's writing is in the details, don't you think? I am overwhelmed with the sum total of the details. The words, the metaphors - each page chock full of word pictures used to show us the characters, not only how they look, but their inner thoughts and prejudices.
It seems that everyone is guilty of racial stereotyping one way or another. Not surprising, feelings are hurt, no matter how assimilated the society has become. I think Helen S. gets it just right.
"There are many Indian and Pakistani folk living in Australia - some have assimilated, some have not." Gum, your comment reminded me of the description of the new lawyer in the Tewkesbury law firm. Mortimer Teale - what a snake! He is a low type...H.S. wastes no time letting us know how she sees him - through the details:
"People said he was from London, which they mentioned with a twist of the lips as if London were the back alleys of Calcutta or some notorious penal colony, like Australia."
Do you resent Australia's portrayal in a negative light, Gum?
This morning I had to call HP for continuing computer problems. This fellow needed to take control of my computer to find out why the "SLEEP" mode kept coming back on. To give him control, I had to fill out the permission screen. One of the boxes that needed selecting was HIS location. He told me to select "PK" from the list. I asked him if he was in Pakistan. His quick reply was "NO!" Then after a pause, he added, I'm in India. Clearly he was not happy with my question. Clearly this is still a sensitive area, after all these years since Partition.
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Thanks for that article, Ella. With the low poverty level among the Pakistanis, it is natural to assume that the educational level is low too, isn't it? And then it follows they are illiterate. That would be the stereotype, but certainly it is not true of Mrs. Ali. The woman speaks 6 languages! Her father was an academic and read extensively. And so does she. The village ladies don't see this. Roger doesn't see this. They just see a "Pakistani" and the stereotype that goes with it.
Callie, I think our Major reads - he just prefers to reread his old leather bound books to library books - Wordsworth, Samuel Johnson, Kipling.
Barbara asks how we "see" the characters. I'm guessing that because the author supplies so much detail that we are all seeing pretty much the same characters- what do you think? The Major looks "old" - probably older than his age. Come on, 68 isn't that old! But he is painted as much older, perhaps ill, can't move at times. What do you think is wrong with him? Mrs. Ali is vigorous, a fast driver, a fast walker, smooth, tight skin. I can see how the Major would be attracted to her - more so than he is to Grace, but really don't know what she sees in him.
I see him unhappy, cranky - woebegone. Sad. This is understandable - he has just lost his brother. And yet, paradoxically, he "felt their was no more fulfilling work than to make Mrs. Ali laugh." A delightful thought! I mean think about it - is there anyone in your life who feels the most important thing in life is to make you happy? Make you laugh?
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"People said he was from London, which they mentioned with a twist of the lips as if London were the back alleys of Calcutta or some notorious penal colony, like Australia."
Do you resent Australia's portrayal in a negative light, Gum?
JoanP 'Resent' is perhaps too strong a word. I must say I was certainly surprised as I read those words. Transportation of convicts to the Australian colonies ended in 1868. Self governance was granted in 1890. Then our colonial past ended, once and for all, more than a century ago with the proclamation by Queen Victoria that the colonies of Australia would be federated as a nation and known as The Commonwealth of Australia on 1 January 1901.
Nonetheless, even within Australia, the stigma of the convict past endured until recent times -say the last 30-40 years as genealogists uncovered their ancestors' history and historians began to include the convicts in mainstream history. In the main, they find stories of courage, determination and resourcefulness though there are also those whom one wouldn't want to own but overall the convict contribution to the early development of Australia is immeasurable. The early free settlers would have starved to death but for the convicts and their work.
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Hello - an internet connection has sprung up from somewhere, not sure how long it will last as it is definitely not "mine"! I am typing this standing in the kitchen, the flat is first floor (I think in the US that is 2nd) and usually we can see right across to the hills of Fife, but today they are all shrouded in mist. So all I can see are the rooftops and tenements of the New Town, which is in fact a great view in its own right.
I am sorry to say that the feeling about Australia being a land full of convicts still lives on in the older generation here - my mother has been very embarrassingly heard to say "well, Australians are all descended from convicts" - this when one of her very best friends is a lovely Australian lady from a much higher social strata than my mother. However, I don't think anyone younger than my mother would have these thoughts (she is in her 80s) - they wouldn't even occur to my generation or my children's. The same is true of Pakistanis - mother used to have a Pakistani neighbour about whom she would never have said a bad word, but "Pakistanis" in general is a different thing for many people - as everywhere, it is the uneducated who hang on to these ideas, convinced that any immigrant is taking their jobs/houses/women, and unfortunately inflamed by the rhetoric (if it can be graced with that word) of the BNP and their like. These things always get worse in difficult economic times. Having said that, my former boss, who was not uneducated, but had never left the city in which he was born, had very similar opinions, always preceded by the standard disclaimer "I'm not racist but...".
The irony of it all is that my mother has never moved more than 3 miles from where she was born in London, which in her opinion is perfect, but - as shown in the quote about Mortimer Teale - people living outside London usually have a very dim view of it. Up here in Scotland there is huge resentment about the way that so much power is centralised down there, and a strong feeling that David Cameron and his ilk have not the faintest idea about life outside the capital. Similarly, friends living in Cornwall think everyone from London is a "grockle" - someone who comes down to the West Country, buys a second home, walks around in a Barbour and Hunter wellies, and pretends to be a Country Person for 2 weeks. My beloved Wendy Webber books satirise the second home owners mercilessly, and show just what the real locals think of them.
Joan P - I think the only "person" whose mission in life was to make me laugh was my late lamented Golden Retriever! he was a complete clown and loved rolling around on his back with his legs in the air, or running round in circles chasing is tail. I am back living with my 2 Siamese again now, and whilst I love them devotedly, and they are often very funny, like all cats everything they do is for their own comfort or entertainment, I am just the facilitator :) I can't think of a single family member whose only interest is to make me happy - can anyone? I can well understand Mrs Ali's attraction to the major on that basis alone - he wants to please her, he is interested in her, he makes few demands and doesn't expect her to change. Wonderful! Can I have his number? ;)
That's a great point, Sheila, about the similarities between Roger and Mrs Ali's nephew, - but I still don't think either of them is a bad person. They are just young, and the young have all these convictions that, in later years, we usually soften up about. There is a mug you an get here with the inscription "Better ask your teenagers' opinion now, while they still know everything"!
I also don't think Roger's girlfriend is a bad person - but I have read the whole book, so I will keep quiet, as I think my view of her changed later in the story.
Incidentally, going back to the Pakistani issue - we had a huge wave of immigration here in the 1970s (I think it was then), when the dictator Idi Amin expelled all of the British Asians from Uganda. I am not sure if they were Pakistanis or not, but that's when lots of them arrived here. i think prior to that our largest immigrant population was probably from the Carribean - lots of West Indians arrived here in the 1950s and 1960s, they were very badly treated indeed and refused entry to many places. Now of course they are several generations down the line, and even my mother's generation more or less accepts them. I think, however, that people from Jamaica, Barbados, etc integrated much more easily - maybe the religious differences were not so great or something, I'm not sure. However, we did see in Little Bee how badly unauthorised immigrants from anywhere but "successful" countries (ie the USA and Western Europe) can be treated - the girl from Jamaica suffered just as much as Little Bee.
Better stop now before my internet luck runs out,
Rosemary
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Interesting isn't it Gumtree how stereotypes hang on and on and on...
Ahh Rosemary, you posted as I was searching for these links - I am so glad you bring to us the view from up close - and yes, Roger's girl does turn out not to be a bad sort doesn't she - rather nice in fact - but then Roger isn't a total loss either is he - well all that is to come but it does relieve tension about these two knowing they do change from the view we have of them in these first chapters.
Forgot about 'Idi Amin' - history goes by so fast that we easily forget some of the damage as communities of people adapt to the changes.
PBS had a series that included Judy Dench called "As Time Goes By" - older couple who find each other after a lifetime lived after the loss of a letter from Korea when they were young and in love. Included in the series Lionel Hardcastle (Geoffrey Palmer) is given by his father the family home and there are a few shows devoted to just that - folks who drive the locals to annoyed silence as they prance around in disrespect of them and the traditions of the community.
Here is a link to some UK Salwar Kameez (http://www.salwarkameezsale.com/pi/kha-01-2011/salwar-kameez-sale-kh-01.php) the type of dress worn by Mrs. Ali.
This photo is to me wonderful - there is Roger closest to the vehicle in his Barbour jacket - not sure that any of these fellows fit my picture of the Major - in this picture they are standing too casually and I picture the major in a casual shoulders down stance but feet apart standing with his gun crooked in his arm wearing a jacket with sleeves. Lunch break on Private Estate (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16293510@N02/5587053886/)
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I've had trouble getting in to this site this afternoon and lost part of my post - I meant to add this -
I see Simonsen's comment as uncalled for as is the reference to Calcutta. I think she could have made the same point by using a large and overcrowded but unnamed city and penal colonies in general (there have been many), rather than the specific reference to Calcutta and Australia. I think it a pity her editors were not more stringent there.
But of course, Australians are well used to being denigrated and seen in a negative light both personally and as a nation. Rosemary's comment here is very apropos:
am sorry to say that the feeling about Australia being a land full of convicts still lives on in the older generation here - my mother has been very embarrassingly heard to say "well, Australians are all descended from convicts
I shouldn't say it but those words are sometimes said, albeit tongue in cheek, by Australians about their fellows and often referring to those who live in Sydney where the highest concentration of convicts were and where some of the less desirable attributes of convict ancestors are sometimes evident among the politicians.
It's OK when we're talking among ourselves. But not so Ok when writers and commentators around the world often use Australia and Australians to describe what they see as the worst of our western civilisation whereas in fact, it is a well kept secret that we and our country are the best. :D
Simonsen shows us yet again that these sentiments have not yet died among folk younger than Rosemary's mother.
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We're posting together Barbara - yes I can see Roger but not the Major - In my mind Pettigrew is physically more like David Niven but without the sense of humour.
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Gumtree ;) we American have to live with a cartoon of the author's version of the Rich American Businessman in Real Estate - Real Estate yet - satin's business - most feel Real Estate is the most awful where all folks are snookered - well that will all come - it is hard to stay within the boundaries of these first few chapters once you have read the book but we must - only to say Helen Simonson seems to have taken the broad approach to most of her characters with comments that remind us more of a 1920s or 30s setting -
David Niven huh :-*
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Barbara - upon reflection that wouldn't be Roger - he doesn't hunt does he? I think it must be Ferguson. One of the others older men must be Lord Dagenham - the tweedy jackey on the left for him.
A mature David Niven :D
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Barbara, that’s a wonderful picture. I love it, but don’t see the Major – all the men are too “portly” to be the Major. I like the comparison to David Niven. The Major is slendor, shorter than Roger, and has a mustache, and somewhere his hair was referred to as “brisly.” Perhaps similar to a crew cut?
My brother has always been interested in guns, even belonged to the “Rifle Club” when he was in high school. (Can you imagine such a thing nowadays?) So I asked him about the Churchills. He didn’t know much about them, but had this to say about British shooting with an explanation about why the “pair” is important. If he’s using any stereotypes, I apologize for him.
As I understand it, the British "sportman" would stand still in a field while a bunch of "bush-beaters" would walk towards the "sportman" and flush out the birds who would then fly up and away from the "beaters" and towards the "sportman" who would then proceed to shoot the birds. Since the shotgun (which was always double-barreled) held only two shells, the "sportman" could only fire twice. He would then hand the spent shotgun to his "loader," who would then hand him another fully loaded shotgun. The "sportman" would continue shooting, practically uninterupted, with that shotgun and then -- well you get the picture.
That's why those shotguns were made in "matched pairs." Remember, this type of "hunting" started in the 19th century or earlier. Today, of course, with self-loading semiautomatic shotguns -- well, who knows.
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That's interesting, Pedln. Here's a pair of Purdey Shotguns at $120,000 to give some idea of the price, and 9 others from cnn.com's money:
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0801/gallery.collectorguns.fortune/index.html
In looking for a pair of Churchills I found this on the Sotheby's page which I thought was interesting:
Significant items that have passed through his hands include many guns built for Royalty including HRH. The Duke Of Windsor's pair of 16-bore Purdey guns and the Pair of 12-bore Churchill guns that he acquired within days of first meting Wallis Simpson
http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/dept/DepartmentGlobal.jsp?dept_id=52
So these appear to be high end collector's items. I have found some old pairs of Churchills but so far they refuse to divulge the price or the auction information unless I register.
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My brother has always been interested in guns, even belonged to the “Rifle Club” when he was in high school. (Can you imagine such a thing nowadays?)
I saw a news clip just this morning about a Dish Satellite shop owner in Montana(?) who is giving away a gun (or a $50 coupon for pizza, apparently good at any Pizza joint in town) with certain Dish Network packages. His business is booming. Where he is, says he, the high schools have even been known to hold gun raffles. Radio Shack Corporate is taking a dim view of his sale and has asked him to stop the offer. He did not recommend the offer be duplicated in certain states/cities.
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I'm going to go back and reread that section more carefully. How did the Major come to promise he'd bring the pair with him to the shoot? Who brought up Bertie's gun? Was it Lord Dagenham, trying to impress the American?
Great pictures, Ginny. And we see that the pair are worth so much more than just the one.
Pedln, the bird hunting sounds almost as bad as the duck hunting. Except Lord DD trained those ducks, since they were ducklings, to come to his whistle. They trusted him. That's worse than the "beaters" directing the birds to the path of the hunters.
Let's think about some questions for Helen Simonson on Monday. I would be interested to hear about where she learned about the Churchills and her feelings on this type of hunting. I know Barbara has some questions about the guns too. If you will post questions right here, I'll get them into the link in the heading..will add a few more right now...
You do know that Helen will be here at 11am EDT on Monday, the 11th, right? Do you think you can be here? Hope so.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - April 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 12:
..."he could not help but register a certain sense of exhilaration at having thrust himself into the heart of Mrs. Ali's life in such an extraordinary manner. He was tempted to celebrate his own boldness with a large glass of Scotch." *****
Some Topics for Consideration
April 8-15 ~ Chapters 7-12
1. The two guns look nothing like a pair." What does the condition of Bertie's gun say about what they meant to him? Would you say that Bertie and the Major's son, Roger, share the same disregard for the history of the Churchills?
2. Is it accurate to say that Mrs. Ali admires the Major's "Englishness," his house, his books, while he admires her for herself, apart from her Pakistani heritage?
3. "One begins to accept, at a certain age, that one has already made all the friends to which one is entitled." Do you find this to be true? Can you share examples of the grief and loneliness that seem to permeate these pages?
4. How many times have you noticed the Major unfavorably comparing Grace with Mrs. Ali? Why is Mrs. Ali happy to have been asked to help with the dance at the club? Why does this upset the Major?
5. Why does the Major feel sorry for the doctor's wife, Saadia Khan? Did you feel any sympathy towards her? What moved the Major to invite Mrs. Ali to attend the dance as his guest?
6. Is Mrs. Augerspier sharper than she appears to be - or is she another old woman about to be taken advantage of by the younger man? Do you have any idea why Roger is interested in this house or the furniture?
7. What has caused the ladies to change the theme of the dance from the Mughal to the Maharajah to focus on the Major's father's service in India? What do you think of Roger in the role of Colonel Pettigrew?
8. How will the Major adapt to the changes that are coming to the undisturbed peace of the village? Do you see a change in him already? How does Amina's appearance on the scene signal change?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118);
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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That is quite the price attached to the value of those guns Ginny - my word...and the Duke Of Windsor - what did you think of his and Wallis Simpson's portrayal in the King's Speech?
Frybabe what a difference in gum culture according to where you live - I remember one summer at Girl Scout camp a guy wondered into camp from the river who was canoing "at Night!!!" after midnight - Thank goodness the Director and 2 other councilors had guns in their tent that where trained on him with a camp full of young girls till the Sheriff could arrive from the other side of the county - it took him over an hour to get to us. That was a silent and tense hour. Frybabe, you bring back memories - my sister and I belonged to a gun club when we were high school age - we did learn how to carry and shoot safely and all the protocol of walking in a field with a gun. ;) Two years later she was a postulant with the Dominicans.
Joan I will clean up my question and leave it with your - I'm just back - always there is a fluff up just before you leave so I was tied up this afternoon.
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I think it is important to note that the Major is well aware of the value of the pair - around 100,000 pounds he says (that is about $160,000) He knows this, but has no interest or intention of selling them. Wants to keep them in the family, give them to Roger to leave to his children. Wonder what Sandy would think of that? (Who said she thought Sandy was "nice"? Really? I'd like to know what you are seeing that I don't...)
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Joan she cleans up... ;)
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Re the bird shooting - in Scotland it is well known that the pheasants (who are reared in coops, then on the estate) are well fed so that they can only fly low, to make sure that the wealthy Londoners (etc) who come up to shoot them don't miss.
My friend lives in the west of Scotland, where the shooting is mainly grouse - many local people, including her own children, work as beaters during the season - it is hard work as you are ploughing through heather all day, but it is well paid, especially for an impecunious student.
Dogs - usually labs - accompany the shoot to retrieve the game. The dogs are generally kept by the gamekeeper and live outside the house in kennels.
All the person who is paying has to do is take the loaded gun from the loader, point and shoot.
There will be a huge picnic lunch brought along by the estate, which will be eaten from the back of the inevitable Landrover, and will certainly bear no resemblance to school packed lunches :)
The estates make a great deal of money out of these events, together with the fishing (- although these days they also run lots of other money making events, like weddings). Because of this the pheasants have to be protected at all costs - something that we used to find mildly annoying, as for several months in spring all dogs have to be kept on leads so that the baby pheasants are not disturbed - then a short while later they are shot at by fat businessmen :).
Rosemary
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Mrs Ali seems just perfect - but we need to remember we are only seeing her from the Major's perspective. I guess that goes for everyone else in the story too! Are the Major's observations on the other characters reliable? I see him as being biassed on some issues.
The Major seems to be enamoured of Sir Edmund Hillary who together with the Sherpa Tensing was the first to reach the summit of Mt. Everest.
There are already a couple of mentions of Hillary in the book - one where Pettigrew takes out the jumper Roger had given him as a gift and tells us that in return he had given Roger 'a waxed cotton rain hat from Liberty and a rather smart leather edition of Sir Edmund Hillary's account of Everest' '
The other Hillary reference was in regard to a small staircase 'which loomed as steep and impassable as Everest's Hillary Steps - The Hillary Step is well known and again, Hillary and Tensing Norgay were the first to climb it:
The Hillary Step from NOVA Everest website
The most famous physical feature on Everest, the Hillary Step, at 28,750 feet, is a 40-foot spur of snow and ice. First climbed in 1953 by Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay, the Hillary Step is the last obstacle barring access to the gently angled summit slopes. Modern-day climbers use a fixed rope up here to ascend the Hillary Step. We marvel at Hillary and Tenzing Norgay's achievement in climbing this impressive mountaineering obstacle without fixed ropes and using what is now considered primitive ice climbing equipment
I've been trying to get the link to the photo but can't get it to work.
the Major would have only been in his mid teens in 1953 when Everest was finally climbed so I guess it's not surprising that it has captured his imagination. Wikipedia alone has around 80 books listed about these two mountaineers.
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Off at elder hostel. But I finished the book on the iPad. on the naming. My sons friends call me mrs. I am not overfomd of being called by my first name by children. But it is better than HON or LOV by sn
Rangers.
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My mother always used to bridle at being called "Dear" by bus drivers, etc. And now it is happening to me :). My children always call me Mum. Young children call their mothers Mummy, but only the aristocracy (or those who aspire to it) continue this practice in adulthood. My cousins were allowed to call their parents by their Christian names (this was in the 1960s/70s) - my parents were scandalised (cousins were allowed to do a lot of things that I wasn't!).
Rosemary
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That's it, Gum!
Mrs Ali seems just perfect - but we need to remember we are only seeing her from the Major's perspective. I guess that goes for everyone else in the story too! Are the Major's observations on the other characters reliable? I see him as being biassed on some issues
We've already seen Roger in a negative light, and Mrs. Ali can do no wrong. Her dress, her appearance, her ability to say the right thing at the right moment, willingness to make him comfortable, even if it means going out of her way. Too accomodating! Makes you wonder why, doesn't it?
As Gum points out, this is how the Major sees her. The Major is our narrator, our unreliable narrator. I suppose we are each "unreliable narrators" of our own stories.
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I too noticed the references to Sir Edmund Hillary. Thank you for the providing the time frame, Gum. Sir Hillary's feat captured the imagination of the teen age boy. Sir Hillary was his hero. How does he compare with his father, I wonder?
I can't find the Nova web site with the photo of Mt. Everest, Gum, but here's another I did find. If we look at the photo and realize the enormity of Sir Hillary's accomplishment, we can understand the impression it made on young Pettigrew.
I'm curious how this hero-worship will tie into the story... Do you have any ideas? H. Simonson builds her story on the details. None seem to be throw-aways. Since she mentions Sir Hillary's conquest more than once, it has to be there for a purpose, don't you think?
(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/8021970.jpg)
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Rosemary, thank you for explaining how grouse hunting, bird hunting continues to sustain an estate. When you refer to the "estate", you are talking about the property of a rich man with the beaters, the villagers working for him and the hunters paying for the privilige of shooting the birds or ducks or whatever. This is a way to maintain the estate, then. The Major has a date to hunt on Lord Dagenham's estate with wealthy businessmen. I hardly think they pay Lord DD for a day at the hunt, but wonder what he gets out of it. Are there many estates left in England (or Scotland) today - that are self-supporting?
How does the Major, an army man, feel about this form of hunting?
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Stephanie, I was beginning to feel in the minority, regarding the first-name calling -by the young. My own boys call me "Mom" - and their children various forms of "Grandma" (Meanma the four in NC call me. :)) My boys' friends always refer to me as Mrs. Pearson...never first name. The daughters-in-law have trouble with this. I have asked them to call me either by my first name - or as MomP, rather than Mrs. Pearson - (since that's their name too.) One of them cannot call me by my first name - and Mom didn't come easily to her either. For a while there she didn't call me anything - until her first child was born - then she started calling me "grandma." Another one started calling me "Mommy" right off the bat - even before she married my son. I won't say how I felt about that. Another one started calling me by my first name, until she noticed that my son called her parents Mr. and Mrs....and so she stopped calling me by my first name. I don't think she really knows what to call me at this point. As I write this, I can see that I probably haven't expressed my preferences clearly enough to them, have I?
I sign emails and cards MomP....
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Joan - there are several estates on Deeside that are run in this way,with the heriditary family still living in the big house, the children being sent away to boarding school. Glen Tanar, Kincardine, Finzean (pronounced Finggan!), Dunecht (not on Deeside but nearby), all come to mind.
http://www.glentanar.co.uk/the_estate.html
http://www.kincardinecastle.com/kincardineestate/aboutus.html
http://www.finzean.com/
The area is very feudal and I had never come across anything like it before I moved there. Most of the village houses are still owned by the laird, and many of the villagers would be working for him, although some would have their own employment and just rent from him.
There would also still be big working estates in northern England - Yorkshire, etc - but I don't know anything about how they are run. I agree, Lord Dagenham would not be charging the people on his shoot - I suppose his motivation is partly networking and partly showing off.
Rosemary
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Oh wow, I would love to spend a holiday at those cottages at Glentanar! Am I to understand that to keep up the estate, they are rented out? That would make sense.
I read in the link you provided that the Farquharson family has owned that land for sixteen generations! "Their Finzean Estate extends over several thousand acres, encompassing farmland, moorland and forestry. The land is managed by the Farquharsons as an integrated family business, with an interest in conservation and the preservation of a viable community."
It is difficult to understand how any one family could keep up such estates, castles, land these days - unless of course, they are the royal family. You write that "most of the village houses are still owned by the laird." A Laird like Lord Dagenham? How does he keep his estate we have to wonder. You write " that his motivation is partly networking and partly showing off." Let's talk about the networking aspect. Clearly he did not intend to invite the Major to the upcoming hunting party. He never invited the locals. He only invited wealthy business men.
How do the wealthy businessmen help him? What good does networking with them to?
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We lived in Louisiana for 9 yrs when my daughter was small. Her friends always called me "Miss Sally". I kind of liked that. Less formal than Mrs., but still respectful. I think that Miss if front of a first name is a southern tradition.
From the book, I got the impression that Double D was hoping to do business with the rich American; thus the hunt and inviting Major to come with his guns. Lord D wanted to impress Ferguson.
I think the Major felt like the guns should not have been separated; and that he, as the oldest (and a military man) should have inherited both of them. His brother did not value them. In earlier times, entire estates went to the oldest son. That kept the "name" and the estates intact.
JoanP--I don't think Mrs. Ali was too accommodating. That was her upbringing and part of her culture--polite and accommodating to males!
Sally
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Sally (Miss Sally! - I love that) - I think you are right, the whole estate did pass to the oldest son. The second son went into the army or into Holy Orders. I think this was mentioned in Brideshead Revisted, wasn't it? Bridie gets the estate, and Sebastian leads a largely pointless existence until near the end of the book.
Rosemary
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Poor Major - having to endure the women's Annual Dance committee in the Golf Club. (Chapter 6) This part reminds me of the musical number from "Music Man", when all the "ladies" sing "Pick a little, talk a little, cheep cheep cheep" while wearing hats with feathers that bobble like chicken crests. And Helen Simonson does use the word "clucking" to describe the Village Ladies in Chapter 1.
Since Nancy's death, I think the Major has become a stuffy old fuddy-duddy.
From Chapter 5:
"It was the sixties and (Nancy) was young and thought love meant living on baked beans and the moral directives of folk music. ...She made him laugh, too. She made him sneak off his base to see her. She made him wear improbable shirts and bright socks off duty."
However, I wonder if Nancy had changed after their marriage?
From Chapter 1: "(Nancy) had been fond of her books and of little chamber concerts in village churches."Had he turned her into his idea of a "proper" wife - or is he just remembering those qualities the way he wants to?
Now she's been gone for six years - and he's right back to the way he was before Nancy came into his life - until Mrs. Ali comes along.
From Chapter 1: "(Nancy) had left him alone to endure the blunt tweedy concerns of the other women of their acquaintance. (Mrs. Ali) was a butterfly to their scuffle of pigeons."
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Miss Sally! That is very interesting. My son has lived in TN and now NC. They have four little children. When the neighboring children come to play, they all call my DIL, "Miss Mandy" and what sounds funny to me, they call my son, "Mr. Adam." I have some questions about this. If I were not their grandmother, would they call me, "Miss Joan"? Does anyone know the answer to this? If it is a sign of respect...hey, perhaps my DILs would like to call me that - Miss Joan. Please, someone from the South, let me know? Is Miss + First name used with people of a certain age?
Let's take that a step further. If Roger's Sandy had been from the South, would she be correct to call the Major, "Mister Ernest"?
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Hmmm, I'm wondering what sort of business would the Laird be able to do with the rich American - also from New Jersey. Wasn't he in Real Estate?
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I do remember the Major saying that he would be lying if he said he had not been upset when his father left the guns, one to each son. He felt they BOTH should have been left to him. So the gripe is not really with his brother and his family, but with his own father....
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I don't think Mrs. Ali was too accommodating. That was her upbringing and part of her culture--polite and accommodating to males!
You're probably right, Miss Sally, but she's every man's dream come true, isn't she? Accommodating! :D
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Callie, I'm so glad you brought up Nancy. I've just been thinking about her - wondering how she brought up such a fuddy duddy of a son! And now that you mention it, how did this free-spirited Nancy turn into the "proper wife" attending chamber music concerts at the village church? Something doesn't make sense here. Maybe you're on to something - the Major as the unreliable narrator - with a selective memory.
Oh ho...the dance at the club and the tweedy concerns of the ladies of the village. Just love the description of them as clucking pigeons, though I'm mixing metaphors. Do pigeons cluck? I think we're going to have fun with the Mughal-themed dance - though I'm not certain what the Mughal Empire was. Are you? I think of them as Indians. The Major was born in India, but Mrs. Ali comes from a Pakistani family. Can anyone fill in here?
I'm wondering about Ms. Simonson's connection to Indian/Pakistani history. Shall we ask her?
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Joan, The first time someone called me "Miss Callie", I thought 'WHAT?? I'm not old enough to be a "Miss____!" Think of "Miss Daisy" (as in the movie "Driving...") and "Miss Ellie" from the t v show 'Dallas'.
I hear many Day Care leaders called "Miss (First Name)" at The History Center - but not school teachers.
When I laughingly told my son that his newly graduated high school friend/classmate had called me by my first name, my son threatened to find him and punch him in the nose. I thought it was just a way of "feeling his oats" and was funny. However, I don't remember that he did it again.
I'd like to read Ms Simonson's comments on Indian/Pakistani relations, too.
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I'm wondering about Ms. Simonson's connection to Indian/Pakistani history. Shall we ask her?
Absolutely. And we might ask her if she had to do much research for her book -- about the guns, and the Mughal Empire, etc.
Re: on the names. My in-laws lived on St. Croix, Virgin Islands, and when I went there for the first time in the 1950's they probably weren't any older than my kids are now -- forty something. Among their friends and contemporaries was a much older couple, native islanders, born there, parents of one of the other couples, and everyone in my in-laws group called them Aunt Annie and Uncle Malcolm. It was much less formal than Mr and Mrs, but also a form of respect.
I'm thinking about Bertie again, and I'm thinking he had some resentments, especially after he and Marjorie had spent the little that was in his trust funds. I don't doubt that Bertie expressed some of these resentments to Marjorie and that may be why she doesn't show much warmth towards the Major. I wonder if anyone ever called him Ernie.
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"Miss" in front of a first name denotes a certain kind of familiarity. If you were friends with the parents of children; then the children called you "Miss" Sally, etc. Teachers were never referred to by first names, but day care leaders frequently were. Children usually referred to older adults (grandparents of friends, etc) as Mrs.--unless the adult requested otherwise.
Simonson states "It's an unexpected part of being British that, no matter the rhetoric, we maintain an enduring sense of connection to the Indian subcontinent." Is that still true today??
Sally
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Yes, I think it is true - at least as far down as my generation, but not sure about my children's - theirs is a very different world. We still have absolutely thousands of Indian restaurants, and some survey someone did showed that our most favourite take away is chicken korma or something (it's not mine).
I don't know if other countries have so many "curry houses" as they would be referred to in the UK. And of course they vary hugely from town to town - Aberdeen, with only a very small Indian population, still has quite a few curry houses, but they are fairly mainstream. If, however, you go somewhere like Bradford or Birmingham, both of which have huge Indian (and Pakistani) populations, you find much more variety - from simple establishments where the food is eaten with chapatis and no cutlery, to very up market restaurants indeed. When I was a young child, the only Indian restaurant I knew about was Veereswamy's in Regent Street - we would never in a million years have gone there, (a) because it was "foreign" and (b) because it was probably very expensive, but I believe it was popular and quite upmarket. Nowadays London must have zillions of Indian and Pakistani restaurants. Unfortunately it has become the tradition for groups of drunken men to end a evening of pub crawling in a curry house - showing off to their friends how hot they can take their curry, no doubt before depositing it back onto the street later on. They are often extremely rude to the restaurant staff, which does not make for good cross-cultural relations.
I would love to go on one of the many train holidays across India that are advertised in our press. Unfortunately husband is not keen.
Rosemary
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Sally, I'm a close relation to my daughter-in-law, right? Is it all right to ask her to call me "Miss Joan" - like Miss Daisy, Miss Ellie, as Callie suggests? I think I like it. "Auntie Joan" won't due and I've already told her not to call me "Mrs. Pearson." Although in an emergency, I bet she'd call me that...
Pedln, I can't even see his mother calling little Ernest, "Ernie" - and yet everyone calls Bertie by the familiar. Is it a sign of disrespect. Do you understand that Bertie didn't serve in the military? Do you wonder why not?
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JoanP, what do your other DILs call you? Wouldn't you want them all to call you the same?
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Well, one calls me "Grandma" - didn't call me anything until her first child was born. Another called me "Mommy" until her first child started calling me "Meanma" and now all those kids call me that. And Will isn't married...living in London. Hope he doesn't find a bride over there - and never come home. Selfish of me, I know.
Those aregood questions. I'll go add them to the list now.
Pedln: we might ask her if she had to do much research for her book -- about the guns, and the Mughal Empire, etc.
Callie: A question about Ms. Simonson's connection to Indian/Pakistani history.
Joan: Any personal first hand knowledge or experience or all from research?
I hope you are all able to make it here at 11 am EST on the 11th when Helen Simonson comes in. I'm thinking if you are here you can post your own question to her...(or ask a new one.) I'll let you know ahead of time what you asked if you've forgotten. :D
Since Barbara's not here, I'll ask her question for her. If anyone else can't make it, I'll do the same. But you must admit, it would be better if the questions come from different sources of those present in the discussion...rather than to see them all come from me!
Can we do a little homework today...each one find a little bit of information on the Mughal Empire? I think we'd understand the story better if we knew what we were reading about?
Sally asks if It's still true today that "an unexpected part of being British that, no matter the rhetoric, we maintain an enduring sense of connection to the Indian subcontinent."
- Rosemary, the information on the Indian restaurants is invaluable. Starting tomorrow we're going to go inside the Taj Mahal Take-out and experience some real Indian cooking. We'll be considering chapters 7-12 this coming week. Here's a very basic question - is there a difference been Indian and Pakistani restaurants? Was this asked before - and I've forgotten? I vaguely remember the question coming up in the Prediscussion. I remember having a meal in an Indian restaurant in London - asking for nan - bread, and then a refill, thinking it was free with the meal...very, very expensive nan it was!
I wasn't going to bring this in here, but when you mention a train holiday across India, I just have to say that my youngest, who lives in London these days, is being sent to India for ten days in May by his company. Not by train, but it's India!
He's been on the BBC a number of times as an energy specialist, talking about the future of nuclear energy. I'm going to leave a link here to his Interview on the Bloomberg Financial report last week. (Of course you don't have to listen to it but_I'm so proud of him because he remained calm in the interview, even though he was in a room by himself with the camera, the Interviewer at another site, shouting questions in his ear, questions he did not know in advance would be asked. Here it is...from his proud mama.
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/67800832
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Joan, Proud Mamas are certainly entitled to share such interesting experiences!
How long does Helen Simonson plan to be with us on Monday? It may be hard to type/send questions and read all the comments at the same time.
I chuckled all the way through the Major's experience at the Taj Mahal Take-Out. Bless his heart; his world is certainly changing!!
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JoanP, have you ever told your dil what to call you? My father in law never told me what to call him. I was not comfortable calling him "Dad", and Mr. seemed too formal. I just waited until we had a child and then I referred to him as Grandaddy. I remember wishing he would tell me what to call him. I think Miss Joan would be fine, also Mama Joan or Mother Joan (depending on what your son calls you). Anyway, just tell her what you prefer. She'll probably be glad you did.
The major stated that after his brother died..."his grief was sharper than in the past few days. He had forgotten that grief does not decline in a straight line or along a slow curve. Instead, it was almost ss if his body contained a big pile of garden rubbish full both of heavy lumps of dirt & sharp thorny brush that would stab him when he least expected it." I lost my husband 2 year ago and there are days when my grief hits me like this. It made me wonder whether Simonson had experienced the loss of someone close.
Sally
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I must be more informal than most of you. I called my mil by her first name (as did her sil) and my dils call me by my first name. I have jokingly threatened to cause bodily harm if anyone refers to me as "Mother (first name)"!
The dil who is the mother of my grandchildren chose what they would call me. She was so fond of her friend's grandmother that she wanted me to be called the same thing. It's not what I might have chosen but I wouldn't have changed or questioned her decision for the world.
We all chuckle when my son says, "Mom" and we both answer.
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Callie, I'd take "Mom"...I did talk to my first daughter in law that, Sally - but she thought her own mother might be hurt. Her own mother lived quite a distance away and DIL was living in our house, while working when my son was away at school. She couldn't say "Joan" either. I suggested we come up with our own name...Milly (for mother in law) and then my favorite - Phoebe...for no special reason. She tried that, but it just didn't set well after a while. To this day, she doesn't call me anything...except "Grandma"...
I'm still thinking about Bertie and the Major. Bertie and Ernest...
Look here, look what I found -
The Mughal Empire was an empire that at its greatest territorial extent ruled parts of Afghanistan, Balochistan and most of the Indian Subcontinent between 1526 and 1857. The empire was founded by the Mongol leader Babur in 1526, when he defeated Ibrahim Lodi, the last of the Afghan Lodi Sultans at the First Battle of Panipat, where they used gunpowder for the first time in India. The Mughal Empire is known as a “gunpowder empire.” The word "Mughal" is the Indo-Aryan version of "Mongol." Babur was a descendant of Chingis Khan. The Mughals retained aspects of Mongal culture well into the sixteenth century, such as the arrangement of tents around the royal camp during military maneuvers.
Will be back in the morning...
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The major stated that after his brother died..."his grief was sharper than in the past few days. He had forgotten that grief does not decline in a straight line or along a slow curve. Instead, it was almost ss if his body contained a big pile of garden rubbish full both of heavy lumps of dirt & sharp thorny brush that would stab him when he least expected it." I lost my husband 2 year ago and there are days when my grief hits me like this. It made me wonder whether Simonson had experienced the loss of someone close. Sally
The author certainly expressed those feelings well, as if she has experienced such loss and grief, first hand, Sally notices that. Also lonelieness - the emptiness - how does she put it, "lonely in the world."
Today we move forward to examine chapters 7 - 12. Lots of movement in the story now. Will be back soon to hear what you have to say.
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My home town, once quite small and now quite large, is tucked away in the beautiful soft hills and blue mountains of the Valley of Virginia, also known as The Shenandoah. I do not live there anymore, and that is alright, as there is now no one there for me.
I grew up calling the older generation "Miss." My two best friends were the daughters of my mama's best friends. I called their mothers "Miss Rachel" and "Miss Caroline." They called my mama "Miss Evelyn."
I have no idea where this comes from. We were also raised to say: "Yes Ma'am" and "No Ma'am." Living elsewhere as a young married adult, I heard some women disparage this title using as demeaning to the person who was using it. Me? I asked myself in astonishment. Me demeaned?
Nope. Never could figure the whole tradition; but I can tell you it is Southern and was the same wherever I traveled and visited in other states in the South. I never understood there was anything but perfection in it until I encountered disdain for it when I was older and elsewhere.
I like looking back. The town is not the same. Everyone I knew is dead and gone. I would give anything to be a girlchild again and for five or ten minutes sashay up our main street from my house to the post office to pick up the family mail. I'd greet each person met with a "Good Morning, Miss Ida! And how are you today?" Changing the name as called for, of course.
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I'm in the midst of this week's selection. Well, it does sound like there had been lots of conversations about inheritance at the house of Bertie before he died. And perhaps a bit of a break between the brothers. It sounds like the Major wanted to see more of Bertie and family, than they wanted to see of him.
But I was amused by the Major's fast talking with Marjorie and Jemima (we know what she wants and why). At least now, he's the bird in the hand.
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Looking at the big picture, I am struck by three things regarding the characters in the book.
First they seem to be very stereotypical. Frankly, I have found this aspect of the book to be a disappointment.
Second, they are in marked contrast to each other. For example, the older generation contrasts with the younger generation. The English are contrasted with the Pakistanis and the Americans. The men are contrasted with the women.
Third, the characters are interacting and having relationships with people who are outside the comfort zones of those around them. For instance, Roger seems uncomfortable with his father’s relationship with Mrs. Ali. Major is uncomfortable with Roger’s relationship with his girlfriend. Mrs. Ali’s nephew seems uncomfortable with her interactions with customers.
I do think the story is enjoyable, but I would like to see some more depth from these characters.
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The question I have for the author concerns things that happen at the end of the book. Is there a way to ask such a question with a spoiler alert of some sort or should we limit ourselves to the first 12 chapters and general questions?
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The question I have for the author concerns things that happen at the end of the book. Is there a way to ask such a question with a spoiler alert of some sort or should we limit ourselves to the first 12 chapters and general questions?
Laura, that's a good question. We don't know how many will actually be here in the discussion at 11am EDT on Monday. We might not have much time to spend on each question if there is a crowd and the questions folks have been asking really don't go to the end of the book. I think we need to address those questions first.
On the other hand, we don't want to miss asking her your question. You do ask such good questions - Does the question itself contain a spoiler?
Tomorrow I plan to send H.S. the list of questions asked so far (you can see them under "Related Links" in the heading here.) How about I ask her what she thinks? The best scenario would be if she would write an answer to your question and email it to me to put in the discussion at the end of the discussion?
Can we talk about this some more? What do you all think? And if you have finished the book, are there questions you would like to see answered by the author that cover the second half of the book, not the first?
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I like looking back. The town is not the same.
Mary Page, you know things have changed , but still you like looking back, remembering the good things. Is this selective memory, do you think? Do you remember the bad things that happened in that town - Or just the pleasant ones?
I'm wondering if the author remembers what it's like living in a small town, or at least a town that has changed much from when she was a child. The Major is experiencing change in his town - and he's never left it! That's even harder than going away and coming back looking for the old days.
Laura, yes there are lots of stereotypes here, aren't there? Most of them the Major's? We've already concluded that this is his story - the village and its inhabitants are seen through his eyes. Is it natural that this would lead to stereotyping? It's the way he sees the world. Would you say it's true that stereotyping is more typical in a small village like this, more so than in a big city like London? Maybe it's not the H.S's stereotyping that you find disappointing, but the fact that stereotyping goes on at all in this little town?
And those contrasts that you mention, ...do they all emphasize the change that is going on in the village - and beyond? In society in general - Generational, Gender, Racial... Everything in flux. How is the Major to keep up with the world? Will he have to change too?
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Pedln, the issue of inheritance - the oldest child son inheriting everything. That's something else that is changing. How do you feel about it? Time for a change?
Of course Bertie's gun never did come with the directive for the family to hand it back to the Major if Bertie were to die first. Will the Major have to come to terms with this? Doesn't it seem as if he already has? He's not concentrating on getting the gun back, so much as getting the gun from Marjorie for the hunt. Restoring it first, of course. This will not be easy - because brother Bertie did not take care of the old gun. Do you see a parallel between the Major fast-talking Marjorie and Jemima into letting him take the gun to the hunt - and Roger fast-talking Mrs. Augerspier into selling him the house. Why do you think he wants this house so badly? Would you?
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JoanP, at age 82 (well, next month), with everyone I knew gone and the town changed so much, I, of course, remember both the good and the bad things that happened. But the things that happened are not at all important to me. I do not wish to go back to the things that happened. I do not wish to relive my life. I want to see all of my dear, dear family members once again, and all of the folks who peopled that town. Selective memory? I don't think so. Any author, of course, would be forced to use selective memory in choosing what to write about and what to leave out. But my yearning memory is of the people I took for granted. How I would love to see them all for just 60 seconds and throw my arms out as though to embrace them all and shout: "I loved you! I love you! I remember you and I am thankful you were in my life! I miss you all!"
That is what I mean. Not an "Our Town" experience at all. Just an ordinary me and them one.
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Wouldn't it be grand to get even a glimpse of those loved ones, Mary Page? What you're describing sounds like what I think of as heaven.
I'm not sure the Major is yearning to return to the past - yearning to see his father, even his wife. He seems to have moved on, if one can ever really move on. He's really feeling the loss of his younger brother - which is surprising because it seems these brothers haven't been that close for quite a while. Is it the guns? Does the Major resent the fact that his father left one to each of them? Or is it the fact that the home went to the first son - to Ernest and Bertie resented that? Or maybe it is Bertie's family that feels bitter about the fact that the older one gets the bulk of the family inheritance?
The Major seems to be the only one grieving for Bertie. Is this another example of an "unreliable narrator"? This is the Major's view of the situation, isn't it?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - April 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 12:
..."he could not help but register a certain sense of exhilaration at having thrust himself into the heart of Mrs. Ali's life in such an extraordinary manner. He was tempted to celebrate his own boldness with a large glass of Scotch." *****
Some Topics for Consideration
April 8-15 ~ Chapters 7-12
1. The two guns look nothing like a pair." What does the condition of Bertie's gun say about what they meant to him? Would you say that Bertie and the Major's son, Roger, share the same disregard for the history of the Churchills?
2. Is it accurate to say that Mrs. Ali admires the Major's "Englishness," his house, his books, while he admires her for herself, apart from her Pakistani heritage?
3. "One begins to accept, at a certain age, that one has already made all the friends to which one is entitled." Do you find this to be true? Can you share examples of the grief and loneliness that seem to permeate these pages?
4. How many times have you noticed the Major unfavorably comparing Grace with Mrs. Ali? Why is Mrs. Ali happy to have been asked to help with the dance at the club? Why does this upset the Major?
5. Why does the Major feel sorry for the doctor's wife, Saadia Khan? Did you feel any sympathy towards her? What moved the Major to invite Mrs. Ali to attend the dance as his guest?
6. Is Mrs. Augerspier sharper than she appears to be - or is she another old woman about to be taken advantage of by the younger man? Do you have any idea why Roger is interested in this house or the furniture?
7. What has caused the ladies to change the theme of the dance from the Mughal to the Maharajah to focus on the Major's father's service in India? What do you think of Roger in the role of Colonel Pettigrew?
8. How will the Major adapt to the changes that are coming to the undisturbed peace of the village? Do you see a change in him already? How does Amina's appearance on the scene signal change?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118);
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Joan P - I think Roger is so interested in Mrs A's house because it is a desirable property in a desirable English village. Until a few years ago - and presumably still when this book was being written - property like this was like gold dust. If the house went onto the open market, it would be snapped up by somebody prepared to pay a lot more than Roger can maybe afford. And perhaps he is also trying to buy back a piece of his childhood - which suggests that it must have been happy, as there is no way on God's earth that I would want to move back to the town that I grew up in.
You have a good point about stereotypying maybe being more common in a village. I have only lived in Edinburgh a week (and many people call Edinburgh "a village" in that everyone seems to know everyone else), but already I feel a sense of freedom that did not exist in Aberdeen. Aberdeen is not, of course, a village, but it is a very insular place. Everyone associated with the oil industry is seen as an "incomer" and never really assimilated. Edinburgh has a huge and transient population, and Anna & I have noticed, just through being out and about in the city, that there is so much more variety - people dress in all sorts of ways, some very unconventional (which I love), and no-one stares at them or makes remarks (as they would in Aberdeen). People have all sorts of lifestyles, and again, there seems to be much more of an air of acceptance. This may well all be our "honeymoon" period - we know so few people properly that things may change! - but even when we enrolled at the local pool, the attendants were more "open" and friendly - hard to describe, but Aberdonians tend to have this attitude that does not welcome strangers and sees southerners like me as namby pamby posh people. So far I just have not come across that here, and we have certainly not stuck to the tourist areas.
Is there an allotted quota of friends? I don't know. I think that if you move, you make new ones - my friends who have done so have managed to forge new social circles, even though they are the same age as me. I do think it is much easier to meet people when you have young children or are working, but it is not impossible when you are older/retired - there is so much to get involved in if you want to. Also, the people you meet at the school gates may in the end have very little in common with you apart from babies, whereas if you meet people later on, you may well meet them through involvement with something that interests you both. That said, I met my very best and closest friends when we had new babies at the same time. I wonder if some people do run out of steam for making new friends? My mother moved house in her 70s (which we did not think was a good idea, but we kept out of it as it is really none of our business) and she says she has never made friends where she now lives - BUT I am well aware that she makes no effort and positively fends people off. When I have visited her, I have found the neighbours, local church, etc to be very friendly.
MaryPage - I have to say it again - your writing is just wonderful. You really should write a novel (or maybe you already have?), your prose flows so beautifully, and is so moving and evocative. I feel that all of those people did know that you loved them.
Rosemary
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Back from a wonderful week at Elderhostel.. Great fun and learned all sorts of Spanish and
English and French history about St Augustine.
Both of my d-i-l's call me Mom.. The younger lost her Mother at 16 and has embraced me as his Mother all the years of her marriage. She feels like a daughter in many many ways. The older hesitated for a while.They lived together for about 4 years, but I let her find her way and she asked if it was ok to call me Mom and I agreed it was , so she does as well..
I loved the Major. He is so wistful about his marriage.. I dont think of him as a cardboard character. But then I have finished the book..He gets stronger and begins to understand what he really wants. Interesting.
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Thank you, Rosemary. Have written books of poetry in memory of my husband and privately published them for friends & family. Previous to that, just wrote and destroyed, but he so wanted me to write. Wrote a Geography curriculum for First Grade, now successfully taught by my daughter for 3 years; working on a Second Grade one. If I live long enough, there will be one for Third Grade; that will make an end to it. My husband wanted me to write for publication, but something inside of me cannot go there. This old crone appreciates your appreciation.
I am in total awe of Helen Simonson. Unfortunately, I will be at work in my son-in-law's business on Monday when she converses with her readers.
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Unfortunately, I am still on the reserve list at the library. Evidently a popular book at our library.
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Oh dear, I seem to have gotten so busy I overlooked this book discussion. I will get the book on my nook and try to catch up in the next few days. I have been waiting for a fun, light read after attacking Little Bee. I will read all the posts after I get a chance to catch up to the chapters you are now on.
Ciao for now~
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FlaJean, Bellamarie - you two are going to LOVE the book, no matter when you read it. And this whole discussion will be available to you in the Archives and a Readers' Guide - so you can follow along as you read. There have been many interesting and insightful observations here that you will not want to miss.
And Mary Page, Helen Simonson's comments will be posted here for you to read on Monday when you get in from work. Is there anything in particular you would like to ask her. We can ask it for you if you'd like?
Steph - I'm so glad to hear that the Major develops during the story. Already we see chinks in his armour, his feelings show through his crusty demeaner. How many times have we seen his eyes start to fill with tears already?
Remember this - quite early in the book, just when he is so critical of Roger's life style -
."..He gave a couple of tentative pats to the part of Roger's back he could reach. Then he rested his hand for a moment and felt, in his son's knobby shoulder blade, the small child he had always loved."
That really got to me! He never stopped loving this boy of his. He's just lost the ability to communicate!
Rosemary, you are very generous in ascribing Roger's interest in Mrs. Augerspier's cottage to a desire to buy back part of his childhood! I guess I'm seeing him through the Major's eyes - I thought he was trying to cheat the old woman of property that he knew he could sell for more than he would get it from her. If only the Major could convince her that Roger was the right sort, meaning that he would take care of her old place, her garden, as she did...rather than sell it to the highest bidder who would raze it to the ground. I saw Roger looking at this cottage, the way he looks at the pair of Churchills - with dollar signs for eyes, not sentimentality.
"Is there an allotted quota of friends? I don't know." I have to run now, but let's talk about this subject some more. Rosemary, I think you are on to something. Off to the airport...
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As the story unfolds, I find myself changing my views of not only the Major,but also Jasmina and her nephew.. Sandy,, etc. All of them become rounded as the story goes on. Simonson is extremely good at letting the characters become more than they start out as.
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I just read the section where they were touring the cottage. From the Major's description of it and Roger's reaction to the cottage, I believe Roger had on a pair of rose-colored glasses. By the sounds of it, it will need a lot of repair and renovation work.
What an interesting turn of events with Amina and Abdul. The Major's offer was a surprise as was Abdul's acceptance. I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.
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Joan, my question does not contain an explicit spoiler, but concerns character development and parallelism. It is not a question I would want to read if I hadn’t finished the book. I’ll wait until I hear what you and the author say.
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Back to the stereotypical characters…
I don’t think the Major is responsible for the stereotypical characters. Yes, he does describe to us his thoughts and feelings regarding people, but the characters identities, words, and actions are what make them stereotypical to me. We seem to have each type of person represented in the story and they are fulfilling their stereotypes. At this point in the book, I was longing for something more original in the characters.
Below is an excerpt from the interview with the author on NPR which is posted in the heading. After reading this, I think the author created stereotypical characters on purpose. I don’t want to say more now, for fear of spoiling something, but I think this is something to keep in mind as we are reading and discussing.
Well, I guess I'm very interested in the role of the outsider in society. I also believe that all of us, at one time or another in our lives, have probably experienced what it feels like to be on the outside. I'm very fortunate. I'm very welcomed in the United States. People love that British accent, and I have many, many friends here. And I've never been put on the outside. And what interested me in Mrs. Ali is, here's someone who -- though she's older than me -- is British-born and bred, raised to be an English woman with a father who really believed in Britain, and yet she's permanently branded an outsider because of her ethnic heritage. And that continues to be an issue in England. And I wanted to write a book that just gently said to people, you know, next time you see Mrs. Ali coming down the street, perhaps you might want to put aside the stereotype and say, hello, have a cup of tea.
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Laura, hang on. I'm sure we'll come up with a solution to get your question answered.
Steph, I'll be watching to see whether the characters themselves change, or whether Simonson relates more about them as the story unfolds. "Jasmina"...I have to stop and think who this is, am so used to referring to her as Mrs. Ali. Is the Major still referring to her as "Mrs." Ali at this point in the story?
Frybabe, it sounds as if you are in agreement with Rosemary on Roger's reason for wanting this cottage. I'm still operating under the premise that he wants to buy the place and resell to the highest bidder - who will raze it, develop the land. Can't see Sandy living in this place either for that matter. Now I am going to have to reconsider, since I am the only one who reads Roger's motives this way...
Laura, I loved that interview with Diane Rehm. Helen Simonson is so forthcoming answering questions about her book, her characters.
From the excerpt you brought here it does sound as if the author thinks stereotyping is something we are all guilty of.
What do you think was the germ, the seed from which this story came? Did she intend to tell a love story? How important to her is the change and the need to adapt? Or was it the stereotyping that goes in every level of society?
In a way, it really doesn't matter; the book has so many strengths.
Can you relate to any of these characters? Is there any one in particular that you feel you know?
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Joan, re: Roger's motive for buying the house...I agree with you. I don't think he or Sandy has one iota of genuine interest in anything historical - other than for "prestige" or its value in today's market.
Re: Helen Simonson's comment that she wanted to "...write a book that just gently said to people, you know, next time you see Mrs. Ali coming down the street, perhaps you might want to put aside the stereotype and say, hello, have a cup of tea.".
While I agree in theory, I confess that I might hesitate to reach out to someone of such a contrasting nationality/culture unless I had become acquainted in some "general" circumstance.
It seems to me that the Major is, perhaps unknowingly, opening some doors for Mrs. Ali to interact with the village ladies and I suspect this is going to make a big difference in her acceptance as the story moves along.
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I agree Callie - I think it is a lot harder than just "asking someone in for a cup of tea". My son's best friend at primary school was Muslim - his mother was young and always wore traditional dress. I did try on many occasions to say hello to her when we passed in the street, but although she never actually avoided me, I don't think she wanted any interaction from me. She spoke perfect English, but I think her husband - who was older than her - was firmly in charge. I asked my friend, who lived in Saudi Arabia for some time (I appreciate that that is not Pakistan), about this - she said the women there are not allowed to make eye contact with Westerners.
Or maybe she just didn't like me! I'm sure we shouldn't think that just because we are "generous" enough to make an approach, it should always be accepted - after all, we wouldn't expect that from every white person we meet (viz, as I have explained before, my mother!!)
Rosemary
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Actually, I live in a town where I dont think I have ever walked by a Pakistani or Indian..Now there are some areas in an adjoining county ( by Disney) that are heavily tilted to the Muslim community, but when I owned a store there, I had a lot of young employees. I remember vividly a girl who was dating a football hero, who was also a Pakistani.. They were very happy, but his Mother was infuriated and did everything in her power to break them up. She regarded it as improper and actively said, she disliked american girls and that they were not good enough for her golden son. She sent her husband back to their native village and he came back with a 15 year old female, who was promptly married off to their son before he went off to college. The girl stayed with his family ande he went off alone.. I remember how upset many of us were at this type of behaviour. I still think that if the whole family felt like that, they should have gone back to the country that they came from. We obviously were not good enough for them. They just wanted to make tons of money and be superior. Sad, but true.
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I can remember having a huge argument back in college days (mid 50's) with a fellow who insisted we "had" to be Friends with the inter-racial students who came to our church student group. I maintained that it was always necessary to be kind and welcoming - but becoming "Friends" was a choice just like it was with white students. Sometimes, there just wasn't a connection and it would be patronizing to pretend there was. (We never did settle our differences :))
However, things are changing in this week's chapters. Several characters have some attitude adjustment coming.
I love the way Helen Simonson is allowing the story to progress.
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I think the stereotypes in this book are not just ethnic, but are related also to "class." Mrs. Ali is not just Pakistani, but also shopkeepers/trades class. Now, Rosemary, I mean no offense here, but sometimes it seems to me that the British are really obsessed with class. Is this so? Is it changing?
Re: Roger and the house -- (he is such a _____) -- he wants to look good to his clients, future clients, and the house is not far from his father's golf club. It's not the most prestigious club, but it's a stepping stone to something a little higher. He's thinking down the road and looking ahead to the fancier golf clubs where he can take his clients.
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Pedln, I'm thinking of what you are saying here about "class" distincition. Mrs. Ali is a Pakistani shopkeeper in the village. If she comes to the ball on the arm of the Major, is this enough to overcome her "lowly social position, Callie? It can't happen unless the village ladies evolve in their thinking too. There's a lot to overcome in the remaining chapters, I think. Everyone will have to cooperate.
Roger and the house -- (he is such a _____)
Does the blank word begin with a "p", Pedln? - just wondering... ;) Roger is the one making the class distinctions. I wonder what his reaction will be when he hears Dad is going to the dance with Mrs. Ali, a shopkeeper?
Rosemary, you were a victim of reverse discrimination, snubbed because YOU were different! Steph, that is one of the saddest stories. For all concerned! Dare I ask what happened to the young lady who worked in your store? She was Muslin, but born in America? That was the only objection? Oh my, think of the poor 15 year old living in a new country with a MIL and a disinterested husband!
Callie, did it happen? Can you remember 50 years ago whether you did make any friends in that church group?
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I'm here waiting....hope I am in the right spot.
Sally
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I don't want to put any spoilers here, but I think we'll see that prejudices and stereotypes exist for both sides. Even now, we're seeing unfriendliness from Mrs. Ali's nephew. You can bet that he would never date a white British girl.
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We are all so excited that Helen S. is coming in to visit with us this morning. I'm sure the tea is hot and the nibbles
are ready for her.
Let's try to make the most of the time this busy woman has set aside for us, by giving her ample time to respond to the questions already submitted. Of course we want to hear from all of you too. If you wish to briefly comment with follow up questions on what she has said, that would be helpful. But try to base your questions on the topic she is discussing. We'll follow the order of the questions posted in the heading here.
Let's see how this works!
Good morning everyone! Sally, you are in the right spot! I hope Helen doesn't have trouble getting in here.
These are our first two questions we have sent to Helen..
1. Can you tell us what inspired you to write this book? Was it a personal story or experience that had to be told, or was it something else?
2. How do you know so much about what goes on in the mind of a 68 year old man? Perhaps the Major is based on someone you know?
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Joan
Is the discussion at 11A M on the east coast and 8AM on the west?
Is the discussion to run on this site?
Been very busy and just thought about this at the last minute.
I will leave the computer on this site to see if anything happens in the next few minutes.
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Sorry! your posts explan it all. For some reason they didn't appear on my screen until a minute ago.
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Hey Jude...(I love saying that.) This is the time, this is the place. I'm going to write to Helen right now to see if she's having any trouble getting into the site...
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Joan, If she comes to the ball on the arm of the Major, is this enough to overcome her "lowly social position, Callie? We shall see! :D (I've read the whole book)
Callie, did it happen? Can you remember 50 years ago whether you did make any friends in that church group? We were arguing about one particular individual and I don't think he ever made friends with anyone.
When my husband and I lived in a Colorado mining town (1964-77), we were the WASP minority on our block. I "walked the walk" with a dear neighbor when she discovered she was the "token" Spanish-surnamed person on a school committee. She was so thrilled to be asked to participate and so devastatingly crushed to find out they had no intention of actually letting her do anything.
During another conversation, I asked her if there was prejudice in the town as a whole. She said none was openly shown - but there were individuals who were "nice" on the surface but made their opinion known in sly ways.
Oh my - I'd better get my Domestic Duties done so I can be here to welcome our author.
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Glad I wrote, HS is at her computer, just having trouble getting in. Hold on. We can handle this!
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Helloooo! Am I joining in correctly? This is Helen Simonson trying to join you to discuss my book.
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Yes, yes, yes, it is SOOO good to have you with us. Welcome, Helen!
Shall we get right to our first questions for you? Please know that we don't expect you to give away anything you don't wish to...
1. Can you tell us what inspired you to write this book? Was it a personal story or experience that had to be told, or was it something else?
2. How do you know so much about what goes on in the mind of a 68 year old man? Perhaps the Major is based on someone you know?
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Hi - Think I'm in the right place so let me start with my inspirations. I wanted to write something just for me instead of something 'edgy' that would get me published. When I wrote just for me, with no censor, my mind went home to Sussex and up popped the Major in his dead wife's flowered housecoat!
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Writing as a 68year old man was very useful - it kept me from becoming too sentimental when trying to write a looove story! Now, at 47, I can see that people think they are the same person at 29 and at 68, and at 90, so I didn't try to write him as especially 'old'.
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While we wait for follow up questions from our readers on the Major - and whether or not he seems "old" , I'll post here the next questions submitted last week -
Q. How did you come to know about the Churchills well enough to feature these guns in your story?
Q. Do you remember which came first when you first thought of the story, the Churchills or the Major, who appears to epitomize the shooting culture of E.J Churchill?
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I'm thrilled with the quality and depth of the discussion on this board. I want to tell you that yesterday I spoke to a group in MD that is primarily a monthly community group of South Asian families and is for all immigrant families to come together and hear speakers on topics of use to families discovering life in America and dealing with all the school, friends and family issues. These were all professional people and I was delighted at how frankly they were willing to address the issues in my book. They all seemed to think I had done a reasonably good job at depicting Mrs. Ali and her family and I was very relieved. I could have spent hours exploring with them the unlimited variations in who people are. We all seemed to agree on how terrible it is that people get clustered as 'populations' or 'groups' and that their individuality gets lost. This goes for 'English' people as well.
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Helen, can you explain a bit what you mean when you say, "my mind went home to Sussex and up popped the Major in his dead wife's flowered housecoat!"
Was this a memory? Are things that casual in Sussex where you might see a man wearing his wife's clothes? Why do you think he came to mind when thinking back to Sussex?
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I rented a cottage in Sussex and the farmer next door showed me and my small children his prize shotgun. It was beautiful (and no, I'm not a fan of guns) and as I complimented him on it he said, rather sadly, 'my brother in Australia has the other one.' Loss of brother and gun seemed to show equally in his face and I tucked the image away. When the Major appeared, it seemed clear to me that he too owned a single shotgun from a pair.
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The Major in his wife's housecoat was an act of imagination - and no it would be VERY unusual to see a man cleaning his house in this garment. I used it for this reason - but truthfully, images often come to my mind fully formed and this was one such case. I have never seen a housecoat with a clematis pattern, as far as I know, but I saw it as clear as day in my mind.
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Aha! Barbara, our co leader in this discussion is unable to be with us this week, but she attached much importance in your writing to the next question -. Do you remember which came first when you first thought of the story, the Churchills or the Major, who appears to epitomize the shooting culture of E.J Churchill?
Did you do much research into the Churchills?
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While I miss home, I also miss my family and perhaps I was thinking of my parents when the Major opened the door. However, I was also eager to use the standard village setting and a cast out of an Agatha Christie mystery on Public Television - and then start taking them apart layer, by layer to show their individuality and also life in contemporary England. It's not all cream tea and roses these days!
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I have to say here, that I LOVE your writing...the detail, the metaphors so completely original...so many on every page. Your gift is your imagination! One that conjured up the old major, who doesn't seem old to you. I know what you are saying. I feel the same way.
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I had to research everything about shotguns and duck shooting as I am as diametrically opposed to blood sports as one could imagine. The joy of writing the Major was trying to see the world from his very different point of view. Perhaps our congresspersons and senators should give this a try as they negotiate budgets and debt ceilings!
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Did you have any personal first-hand knowledge of Indian or Pakistani relations? Are you writing of the pakistani community from any first-hand knowledge?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - April 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 12:
..."he could not help but register a certain sense of exhilaration at having thrust himself into the heart of Mrs. Ali's life in such an extraordinary manner. He was tempted to celebrate his own boldness with a large glass of Scotch." *****
Some Topics for Consideration
April 8-15 ~ Chapters 7-12
1. The two guns look nothing like a pair." What does the condition of Bertie's gun say about what they meant to him? Would you say that Bertie and the Major's son, Roger, share the same disregard for the history of the Churchills?
2. Is it accurate to say that Mrs. Ali admires the Major's "Englishness," his house, his books, while he admires her for herself, apart from her Pakistani heritage?
3. "One begins to accept, at a certain age, that one has already made all the friends to which one is entitled." Do you find this to be true? Can you share examples of the grief and loneliness that seem to permeate these pages?
4. How many times have you noticed the Major unfavorably comparing Grace with Mrs. Ali? Why is Mrs. Ali happy to have been asked to help with the dance at the club? Why does this upset the Major?
5. Why does the Major feel sorry for the doctor's wife, Saadia Khan? Did you feel any sympathy towards her? What moved the Major to invite Mrs. Ali to attend the dance as his guest?
6. Is Mrs. Augerspier sharper than she appears to be - or is she another old woman about to be taken advantage of by the younger man? Do you have any idea why Roger is interested in this house or the furniture?
7. What has caused the ladies to change the theme of the dance from the Mughal to the Maharajah to focus on the Major's father's service in India? What do you think of Roger in the role of Colonel Pettigrew?
8. How will the Major adapt to the changes that are coming to the undisturbed peace of the village? Do you see a change in him already? How does Amina's appearance on the scene signal change?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson, Part 1 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html);
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118);
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
At one point my wonderful editor said that my metaphors were so beautiful...that I should really limit them to one per page! I tend towards wordiness and I delight in language and in finding new images to describe things. It's very English to steep oneself in language and back home all sorts of people delight in long words. In the USA we are Hemingway-direct and prefer the simple approach often. In the UK I fear we are all Mr. Pickwick at heart!
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Hello from Oklahoma.
Have you personally discovered big differences between your age group and the Major's age group?
I am 75 and I think there are more differences between my age group and yours than there ever were between my age group and the one 20 years older.
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Please readers, feel free to ask your questions as Callie did. As you can see, Helen is quick to answer questions.
One of our readers, who I know is here right now, asked this question earlier about the amount of research that went into this book -
Did you have to do much research for your book -- about the guns, and the Mughal Empire, etc.? How long did you work on the book from the first inspiration, to the publishing?
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No I am not 'qualified' to write about Pakistani heritage from any first hand knowledge - but I write to ask myself questions and to explore what I do not know. I did a lot of research - from academic studies on chain migration to message boards of young Pakistani people in the UK - and I was pleased to find that families are mainly the same the world over. We all have mother-in-law issues or funny aunts or long-winded siblings, don't we? We have more that unites us than we know, and a conservative Muslim family may have more in common with an evangelist Christian family than with,say, a liberal New York family of no religious background.
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May I ask from which side of the Atlantic did your wonderful editor tell you to limit your metaphors? I loved them.
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and then start taking them apart layer, by layer to show their individuality and also life in contemporary England.
I love this statement of yours, and I think that is one of the outstanding features of your book.
Please answer this only if you have time.
I recently read, and found most interesting, your review of Paula McLain’s The Paris Wife. Are there any writers, not necessarily whom you would like to emulate, but whose particular style you admire?
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On the topic of age. I feel I stand on the ridge of a hill and can see back to my twenties and forward to the days when I shall receive my meals-on-wheels and order my books in large print from the library. I may know more as I age, but I am the same person as well. I am Helen the small child, the awkward teen, the mother - and I can see me really working on being fit enough to keep traveling. I do have experience working with frail elder adults and I can tell you, they always felt perfectly young - only sometimes the body betrayed them and other people thought them invisible. I hope I could sit and have a lovely chat with you at 75. I know we'd have more to talk about than I do with my sons - who are monosyllabic teens right now!
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Boy - this is hard work. My fingers hurt from the fast typing!!!
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My favorite author is Edith Wharton. I also admire Somerset Maugham and I love Toni Morrison, Barbara Kingsolver, David Mitchell, Ian McEwan...the list goes on. What I loved about the "Paris Wife" was that I am usually very hard on unfaithful men, but this book made me see that Hadley made her own bed when she married Hemingway. She knew it, she had her own reasons to take the bargain - and then she made the classic mistake of wanting to change Hemingway into a suburban dad. By the end, I could not find where my loyalties should lie and I thought that masterful.
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Unfortunately, I must leave for a while.
Thank you, Helen, for coming in to visit with us. I look forward to reading all the comments.
Having grown up in a town of 3,000 dear souls and having lived in several others during my adult years, I always enjoy reading about life in English villages where the same attitudes prevail - but seem so much more charming.
....and I LOVE the metaphors and the Major's "mental" observations and comments!
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See you later, Callie -
Time flies when you are having a good time! Don't know how much time you have left, Helen, but will try to squeeze in a few more questions from the end of the list...
Do Edgecombe St. Mary and Hazelbourne-on-the-Sea really exist or are they purely fictitious?
Can you tell us the reason Frank Ferguson refers to Lord Dagenham as "Double D"? Are these his initials?
Where had the Major served when in the military? And secondly "did his military service influence his personality?"
How long must we wait for your next book? I am a "forever fan" of yours, until my life runs out!
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I love research. I can not believe that the New York Public Library and the Library of Congress will give me a photo ID and let me use their marble halls, oak desks and the services of library personnel. Librarians fetch your books! In London, the British Library Colindale (for newspapers) will hold your laptop while you go to lunch! This is the epitome of enlightened society - that we the people own and have access to these mansions of learning. What a privilege!
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Hele
When you thought of the major as your protagonist did he come full blown into your mind or did you discover him layer by layer?
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The towns are fictitious amalgamations of places I know and love. Yes, Dagenham's initials are DD and his aristocratic-sounding name is the name of an English industrial town where they make cars!
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It turns out that if I have a 'gift' or more likely a small 'window' into the writing process it is that characters present themselves to me, coats on, handbags on the elbow, waving a bus ticket and demanding that I accompany them somewhere they need to be. I do not outline or know where I'm going - I only catch a glimpse of someone turning a street corner and hurry after them.
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Helen, thank you so much for spending time with us. Your book is definitely one of my favorites and I’m looking forward to your next one. I’ll be forever grateful to my daughter-in-law Emily for letting me carry her signed copy from Bethesda to Missouri.
Thanks again, and good luck.
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The Major participated in the British army's "Small Wars" as one web site calls the post world war II era. There were many 'police actions' and so on to places like Aiden, Suez and they are largely forgotten. The USA has also experienced this diminution of respect for some conflicts over others. People do not remember Korea like they now acknowledge Vietnam (I think???). The Major was very much an 'information' man and an army bureaucrat and I wrote lots of back story in which he saved men and resources through efficient filing systems. Alas such back story can weigh down a tale and I dropped most of it.
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I'll be around in early May and can drop by again. Any excuse to turn away from the novel writing! Seriously, thanks for having me and I'd love to check in when you've all finished the book. Goodbye for now. Helen Simonson
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You have already been so generous with your time. Can you possibly be working on your next book while raising two teenage sons, book tours etc. I felt guilty asking you for more. But I thought I'd ask anyway...since this is an unusual situation. How many book groups do you speak to - who have only read half of your book? There have been several who have questions concerning the end of the book. Thank you so much for offering to drop in again now that you have found us.
Thank you, Helen! Have a good trip!
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Phew! That was fast and furious. Helen types fast! How wonderful to know that she will return in early May. We can get started on a list of questions for then now. Will include your questions on the new list, Laura's on the stereotyping and Sheila's on her next book. That was fun...fast-paced, but fun. Never did anything like this before.
Shall we get back to the tasting party at the Taj Mahal Take Out. Poor Grace. She is totally out of her element...
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A very successful event, JoanP.
Before I forget about it, when HS was talking about Lord Dagenham, she mentioned that it was the name of a town where cars were made. There's a fairly recent film (comedy) out -- Made in Dagenham -- about a strike in 1968 by women protesting their pay and treatment. I had heard about it somewhere, but had forgotten about it until HS mentioned it. Now on the Netflix queue.
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Sorry I had to miss the fun - classes this morning, and then the water people came to establish that, yes, there is still a leak. It appear that when they "fixed" the pipe the other day they self-inflicted another one.
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Frybabe, it was fun, somewhat hectic but at least we know now that we can conduct a "live" interview in this format. A lot of things we've learned that I think will influence how we react to the rest of the book. And the wonderful news - our Helen Simonson will return at the end of the discussion. Laura will be glad to hear about that. Certainly we can get into the stereotype questions.
What did you think of the scene in the Taj Mahal Take Out? Wasn't it wonderful? The two elderly Rasools, sitting there looking grim - and disapproving. Not a word of English. Were they the owners? Their son invites the Major and the women to have a seat with them. They aren't happy about this. Neither is Mrs. Rasool. You'd think they'd be happy for the business, but obviously they are not. Maybe they're just trying to figure out the purpose of the visit. The whole tasting and sampling goes on as the elderly Rasools sit and watch. I think it is understandable that they are puzzled, don't you?
Not sure what to think of Dr. Khan's wife, Saadia. Clearly she is well off and yet she's angling for a step up the social ladder in the town. Did you notice her attitude towards "Jasmina"?
What exactly does stereotyping mean to you? I'm wondering whether you consider any of these people stereotypes?
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Just a marker.. I have read part of the interview, but am running out of time.. Back soon.
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Good morning, Steph-
Marcie fixed a nice interview page - Interview is now all in one place. Will keep it in the heading, plus we'll start a new page of questions for our next interview with Helen S. when the discussion is over... SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson, April 11, 2011 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html)
Back in a bit...
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I am thrilled our author will be back with us for the “end of the book” questions!
Meanwhile, to the scene at the Taj Mahal Palace…
This was one of my favorite chapters! I relished what was not said even more than what was said.
I also noted the contrasts…
First, the contrasts in color between Grace, who would have been “invisible in any mildly wet woodland,” with her tweeds, and Mrs. Rasool in her bright mustard colored outfit in the restaurant with the orange walls.
Second, the contrasts in the food, from goat gosht to the “more popular alternative” of Yorkshire pudding, from the rasmalai to the trifle for dessert, and the different reactions of Grace and the Major to the food.
I felt a bit badly for Mrs. Khan. She was dressed like Grace, but Grace didn’t seem to accept her as part of the same group as she herself belonged to, yet Mrs. Khan didn’t seem to want to be part of the same group as Mrs. Ali either. Mrs. Khan is a person stuck between two worlds.
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I am of two minds regarding Mrs. Khan. Is she a social climber, or she just very badly want to fit in?
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If she wants to fit in, I guess that's understandable. Doesn't everyone? Look how Mrs. Ali lights up when Grace asks her to tea.
You know, those ladies of the club are not all that high on the social ladder, are they? I don't know that Saadia Khan is beneath any of them. I'll say she just wants to belong? Grace stares at her, wondering why she has never heard of her. Is Dr. Khan a member of the club? Or no? Does his wife want to be in this club, or does she want her husband to be a member?
Her husband, a doctor at the local hospital, is not the stereotype of the foreigner, is he? I remember when the Vietnamese first came here - back in the 70's. They couldn't practice what they were trained for. Rather, they took unskilled jobs - anything to get an education for their children. Top students Music lessons, the works. I remember one girl in my son's class won the Spelling Bee for Arlington County - after learning English only two years before! If there was a stereotype, this was it! These kids did not want to fit in to any group - they wanted to excel.
Laura describes Mrs. Khan as someone "stuck between two worlds." Is that how most foreigners in a new world feel. I'm still struggling with the whole idea of stereotyping. What exactly is it? Is it reaching certain conclusions about a group of individuals and deciding that all of that ethnic group must be the same?
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IMO Mrs Khan is a complete social climber. She looks down on Mrs Ali. She looks down on the less elevated Brits. Her husband has made a lot of money and she wants the status she feels should go with that. I have had clients like her (not Asian, white Scottish, but with similar attitudes). When the husband has made money, the wife almost inevitably seems to take on all sorts of airs and graces, whilst the husband, in my limited experience, stays relatively normal.
Rosemary
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Finally back at last.. I agree with Rosemary.. Social climber to the core. Mrs. Ali does not seem to care, but does feel so obligated to her husbands family.. I find myself mentally trying to push her into more independence. Silly, but the characters ring so true, that I want to meet all of them.
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It will be interesting to see what they have to eat at the dance. I love this bit . . .
"Anyone who doesn't find this food delicious is a fool, " said the Major. "However,. . . "
"However, it is not foolproof, so to speak," Mrs. Rasool asked.
Mrs. Kahn may not be the most likeable character, but even bad guys have feelings, and there is no doubt some angst on her part that her husband, and she, as his wife, are denied access to what would come easily to other persons. That hurts. I remember when my childhood next door neighbor Margie was having a birthday party, and Doris, who lived down the street was not invited. "My mother said there was not room at the table," said Margie. Several months later a group of us little girls were headed to Doris' house after school for ice cream and cake. As we gathered around the back door, waiting to enter, Doris' mother said, "I'm sorry Margie, there's no room at the table here. No room for Doris at Margie's party, no rooom for Margie at Doris' party." Don't know if that fits our discussion, but I often think of that experience whenever stereotyping and discrimination comes up.
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The food discussion in the book for the party is wonderful.. Two generations, two entirely different ideas on food..
Discrimination is a t wo edged sword.. I suspect that the Pakistani community has affairs as well.. I know here in central Florida, we have any number of Puerto Rican festivities and even a parade or two.. All can go,, so are the oriental parades and at least one Muslim festival. We also have a Zora Neal Hurston festival.Each are mostly attended by members of the ethnic or cultural group, but all are welcome.
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It seems that the ladies have decided they want this Mughal themed dance, complete with authentic food, dance, music - but Grace is deciding that everything presented is too "foreign" and unfamiliar, and so she settles on the more western options. I'd been thinking the Major was super critical of Grace in previous chapters, but he seemed to agree with her on most of the plans - the food, cease with the sitar music...
I'm not sure which of the ladies, Sadie Khan OR Amina had the bigger impact on the story...but they both enter during this lunch - attended by the Major, Mrs. Ali, Grace... This has to be one of the best scenes .
Grace is pleased with Mrs. Khaan's offer to supply wall hangings, table coverings, runners. Mrs. Khan is happy because she has got one foot inside the door of social acceptance. What did Mrs. Ali get out of attendance at the meeting in the Taj Mahal Takeout?
I think the three of them, Grace, Mrs. Ali and the Major make a funny threesome. Somewhere earlier in the book, I remember reading of three swans (they usually swim in pairs).
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During Monday’s visit when asked about her use of metaphors Helen Simonson responded
“At one point my wonderful editor said that my metaphors were so beautiful...that I should really limit them to one per page! I tend towards wordiness and I delight in language and in finding new images to describe things.”
In his NY Times column today David Brooks has much to say about metaphors.
In his fine new book, “I Is an Other,” James Geary reports on linguistic research suggesting that people use a metaphor every 10 to 25 words. Metaphors are not rhetorical frills at the edge of how we think, Geary writes. They are at the very heart of it.
Brooks then describes how we use metaphors in various fields, food, religion, science, etc before concluding. The link to the article is below.
Most important, being aware of metaphors reminds you of the central role that poetic skills play in our thought. If much of our thinking is shaped and driven by metaphor, then the skilled thinker will be able to recognize patterns, blend patterns, apprehend the relationships and pursue unexpected likenesses.
Metaphors -- Poetry for Everyday Life (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/12/opinion/12brooks.html?src=me&ref=homepage)
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I loved the lunch scenes. I can just see the older parents insisting on a version of their food and the visiters struggling with them.. Everyone loves to eat a little ethnic, but not totally..
I know in Great Britain, curry shops are everywhere. Sort of like our Pizza places.
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We're back in town, and I want to read from here. I don't know if I will be able to read all of the posts, though.
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Wheee marvelous confab with Helen Simonson - Just wonderful JoanP - just wonderful - her fingers were sore form typing so fast - precious - thank you JoanP for asking the questions that we left for Helen - I was thrilled to see the answer to the development of the Major and those guns - who would have guessed it was a chance meeting with a neighbor - have to re-read again the contact - but someone whose brother had moved to Australia with the second gun from a set.
Oh and JoanP you were 'right' the double D was because of his name - now I have to re-read closer to find where his first name is mentioned - I have not read all the posts yet...just peeked in here - I am dead on my feet - I need a shower, a bowl of soup and an early appointment with my pillow and I will be back in the morning - JoanP I feel funny saying thanks but really thanks - funny, in that we were a team but boy did you come through - and then to read Helen Simonson will look in again when we have completed the book - wow! It does not get any better. You did it!
A personal note - difficult - not sure where we are with my sister - my other sister who is much younger relieved me but she can only stay till next Monday - one foot in front of the other - what will be will be---
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Great to see you back safely Barb - hope you had a good sleep, and look forward to reading your comments when you wake up!
And very best wishes re your sister too.
Rosemary
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Me too, Barb.. I am sorry and will hold out the very best wishes for your sister. I did finish the Major and adored it.. Ending and all.. I will not fink ontelling ahead though.
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Good morning, Barbara! I'm hoping you had a good deep sleep in your own bed. We're happy to have you back with us for however long you can stay. Thoughts and prayers for you and for your sister. What a blessing for her to have sisters like you.
Maryz - welcome back! Jump right in with us now...without reading back posts, but do read Helen Simonson's response to our questions. You'll find a link to our interview with her in the heading on this page under Related Links.
Her responses add another layer of understanding and appreciation for her book. She refers to her "beloved Sussex." She's writing from memory of her childhood home, perhaps, when she describes the Major's home - "a real Sussex cottage with a white-boarded front and lots of windows looking out on a garden."
Tomorrow we will move on to Chapters 13 - 17 -- We are approaching the much-anticipated scene - the club dance.
I'm not exactly sure how the decision came about to change the theme from the Mughal Empire of the 18th century, to the Maharajah at the time of the Partition in the 20th century. I don't believe the ladies came up with this themselves. I suspect but am not certain that there was outside influence ... What is your understanding of how this came about?
And how about that gallant Major? All he wants are those quiet moments with Mrs. Ali, talking of Kipling. I'm quite sure he didn't want to put Mrs. Ali into an embarrassing situation by inviting her to the dance, but she already became involved with the planning. When he saw the dismay on her face - when she realized that the ladies were interested only in having her work the dance as a hat check girl, he did the only thing a gentleman could do...How did Grace react to this? Do you remember?
I'm really looking forward to the next section!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
April 16 - 24 ~ Chapters 13-17
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 17:
..."She hurried down the driveway, and as she disappeared, blue dress into deep night, he knew he was a fool. Yeat at that moment, he could not find a way to be a different man." *****
For Consideration
April 16-24 ~ Chapters 13-17
1. "When we pick and choose around the rules, we discover later we have set aside something precious in the process." Do you remember who said this? The Major? Sandy? Abdul Wahid? Mrs. Ali?
2. How do you score on first impressions? Has your first impression of Sandy changed? Perhaps she herself has changed? Do you see a future for Sandy and Roger?
3. Can you tell how long the relationship between Roger and the Major has been strained or what caused it? How does Abdul Wahid's relationship with his father differ?
4. What does the shop represent to Mrs. Ali? When she offers the shop to her nephew is she giving away more than the financial investment?
5. Did the duck hunt on Lord Dagenham's estate fulfill the Major's expectations? Did Roger's presence spoil his dream of showing off the Churchills?
6. Had the Major expected that Ferguson was going to "pillage the village" with his drastic redevelopment of St. Mary Edgecombe? Why is the Major the key to the success of the village makeover?
7. What is Ferguson's real interest in the Churchills?
8. Was Mrs. Ali's ravishing appearance at the ball something out of a fairy tale? What were your most vivid memories of the evening - before the ensuing melee?
9. What was the cause of Mr. Rasool's outburst that led to the bruhaha abruptly ending the entertainment?
10.. What stopped the Major from running down the driveway to take Mrs. Ali home?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson, Part 1 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html);
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118);
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Steph, you're doing a great job of not revealing the end of the story. Isn't this a good book to reread, though? There is so much you can sail right over while following the plot...which you can appreciate more at a closer reading when you know how things are going to play out.
I haven't finished the book, won't let myself read ahead of the schedule, but have noticed things I've missed when looking to earlier chapters for something -
Today, while searching for the passage describing those three swans, for example, I found more references to the clematis flower - remember the crimson clematis flowers on Nancy's housecoat the Major was wearing in the opening scene? They appear again - this time purple clematis admired by Mrs. Ali in the Majors garden. Are these flowers common in Sussex, I wonder?
I also came across other lines - descriptions - like this one, which I don't remember reading the first time around - this one on page 64. Oh yes, another discovery. My library book was due back and I couldn't renew it. It was hardback. I then purchased a paperback and find that the page numbers in the paperback and the hardcover correspond! I thought that was amazing...
"Memories were like tomb paintings, thought the Major, the colors still vivid no matter how many layers of mud and sand time deposited."
Don't you find this so true?. A powerful thing, the brain!
I started finding things while looking to see exactly what the Major had thought about those three swans. - reread the book again all the way up to page 128 -
"three bleached-looking swans. There were always just three and it fascinated the Major to try to work out which was the odd one out and why it stuck around."
Did you think of these swans as you watched Grace, Mrs. Ali and the Major? Which do you see as the odd one out? Does Grace ever realize that she has any competition for the Major's attention - until the Major invited Mrs. Ali to the dance, that is? Do you see any reaction from Grace at this?
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Welcome back to you also MaryZ - looks like April was a time for many to break with routine - weren't you out of town as well Steph?
Your post pedln was music to my ears on several fronts - I love David Brooks - he is more even in his opinions so that even when I do not agree with him I do not want to stop listening. Have you read his new book - it is on my list - and then the concept of poetry that runs through our communications - so obvious and yet, it takes someone to point out the obvious - thanks.
Did you all feel sorry for Sadie Khan when reading the restaurant scene - you could tell she was trying so hard to be on the other side of the serving table at the country club - oh dear - and yet, the 'ladies' of the country club were probably feeling second class citizens and only by the grace of who they married and feeling important according to their position on the planning committees did they get on the bandwagon of measuring their social value. What to me is so maddening most of the guys didn't get it... well the Major, as quiet as he seems sure made an impact on the planning for the dance.
The comment by Abdul when the Major asks Mrs. Ali to the dance I thought was so perfect it made me chuckle - right down the alley of the thinking that once over a certain age you become a changed person and there are different rules for acceptable behavior. "My aunt would not dream of attending," I love it - of course when I read it I put a lot of emphasis with a tongue and cheek broad smile on the word "dream."
JoanP I missed the clematis flower repeat - just merrily read along and it all passed me by - and that line - just too perfect "Memories were like tomb paintings," - a pause there to ruminate if that is what we do - we either mud over a memory or a wind storm comes along blowing sand that wipes out some of the sharpness of the unprotected memories - lots to ponder from those few words - and only after they are taken out of context do I see the depth of thinking and feeling from Helen Simonson. To have written such a fast moving story full of life on so many levels and yet, to have many bits of wisdom that stay with the reader - yes, let's hope Helen Simonson has more books in her.
Ok lots to catch up on - need to review the past posts especially the interview - and yes, it looks like the big dance is our discussion for next week - Till later...
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Those three swans - they fleeted in and out of my mind picture this afternoon - I couldn't help but get a shadow of Nancy just as Mrs.Ali would have the shadow of Ahmed her deceased husband. I wondered if there is that shadow that must be acknowledged in any marriage that takes place after an earlier partner dies and so like the third swan they are always together - sorta like those tomb paintings.
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Well I'm caught up to chapter 7 and must say I am fascinated with Major and Mrs. Ali. I really like the Major, I only wonder if he is just a bit obsessed about the pair of guns. My Mom passed away twenty yrs ago and when all of us sisters read what she wanted done with her jewelry she stated that all the sets should stay together. That made it a bit difficult since she only specified certain sets to a few of us leaving the other sisters trying to decide who should get the remaining pieces without breaking up the set. There was certainly hurt feelings and possibly caused the six of us sisters to hold a bit of resentment. This sure makes me think twice about my doll collections I have as sets and how I will ask for them to be dispersed. I can't imagine breaking up the "Little Women" series, or the Princess Diana series, or the Beautiful dreamers series, yet I have four grnd daughters and only one daughter. Hmmm....I'm gonna give this alot of thought after reading how Mrs. Ali felt about her father's book collection and Major's feelings about the guns.
Anyway....I just love the relationship between the Major and Mrs. Ali at this point in the book. I love how she has seemed to awaken new life in him. Its so sweet the two of them sharing their times together. I love the humor, I am laughing out loud. I am weary of Roger's girlfriend and their motives for cottage hunting near the Major. What do they have up their sleeve?
Okay I plan to catch up and then read all the posts this week end.
Ciao for now~
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The Major tries so hard to sound and be what he considers normal, but a poetical side does creep in. He sounds so hungry for good conversation and finding it in Mrs. Ali has pleased him so very much. I dont blame him for inviting MRs. Ali.. He is an honorable man and the ladies were being spiteful.
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In Chapter 13, I see Roger's obsession with money and getting ahead coming out in full force. I also get more of a glimpse into the parent/son relationship when Roger was growing up. I am now wondering if Roger's acquisitiveness is a way of compensating for his childhood upbringing. It appears that Roger rarely got praise from his father, who preferred to criticize his son in the name of making him stronger. Roger's constant talk about his accomplishments and acquisitions seems, now, an unconscious ongoing effort to get that praise. Notice how the Major tends to rain on Roger's parade. But, I also see an inkling (in Chapter 15) that the Major is starting to recognize his own tendency to putting Roger down.
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It really makes you think about what you leave behind when you are making out your will, doesn't it, Bella? My husband thinks we should just "let them fight it out" after we're gone, but I can't believe he means it. Maybe it would be better to give things away while we are living - to avoid all that. If there are hard feelings, then we can do something about it, rather than leave hurt feelings as a legacy.
Read on - want to hear what you think of Sandy after you've read the next chapters. I'm really terrible with first impressions - often am so far off that I amaze myself.
Steph, I'll agree, the ladies were dreadful - I felt Helen S. was exaggerating their bad manners. No one could be that condescending - especially right to someone's face! I'm trying to remember whether Grace took part in that. She seemed a better person than that. Do you remember?
Frybabe, I keep waiting for the true Roger to show up - under all that bravado. Maybe we have to learn that through Sandy? I'm waiting to see Roger's true colors...
These chapters lead up to the big scene at the dance. H.S. does a great job building the suspense, don't you think?
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Joan P. I'm not so sure about letting them fight over it once we are gone. I do like the idea of giving my treasures away while I am still able to see the joy in their faces and explain to each of them why I am choosing them. And yes, in case there are any hurt feelings, we could discuss them and rectify them, rather they have questions later as to why did so and so get this or that. I do know a couple of my sisters felt horribly left out because a few of us were given certain pieces of jewelry that seems more valuable and personal and they were left to split the rest. I felt horrible that day we went through them.
As for my first impressions of Sandy, I'm not liking her much. She is insensitive, manipulative and seems a bit too anxious to have the finer things in the cottage. To say he can not bring childhood attachment items that will clutter the cottage tells us who is wearing the pants in that relationship. What does Roger see in her? Is she a possession to acheive to give him a sense of success? Joan, my first impressions are usually very good with people I have to admit, I have a widowed sister who meets guys online for possible dates and she always asks my advice and I am batting 100 out of 100 so far. NO successful relationships yet for her. lol
Why am I sensing now that the Major has the gun in his possession it may not mean as much? I am only up to chapter 12, but as I recall he didn't even take it out of the coverlet for days. Hmmm....if it were me I would have had to see it and handle it instantly as I got home.
OMG...the whole cottage scene was so funny my husband was in the other room and came in and started laughing at me laughing out loud and had to hear what was so funny. I read him the entire part and he cracked up. I so LOVE H.S.'s wonderful writing style. She captures the most intimate of colors, and feelings. This is one of the most enjoyable books I have read in a very long time.
I stayed up very late into the morning reading all your posts and still have a ways to go, but I intend not to miss one of them. Rosemary, once again you are here to give us such great insight into the English life. I was a bit amazed to see the rows of colored houses. They truly appeared to look like contruction paper buildings to me.
Okay I began my spring break/vacation today and my dear husband is off also which is a treat for the both of us to have a Saturday to share since he is a mailman and works many of them, so I must go and spend some time with him. I chuckled when Roger asked the Major has be now become friends with the milkman as well. LOLOL My hubby has become a true daily friend to many of his patrons and they confide in him more than their family members and look forward to him every day. Does Roger feel a bit threatened with the fact his father seems to be making new friends? And what about this abrupt announcement of this fiancee'. Woweeee...what a way to tell your father you are engaged. Then to dismiss him as soon as they have successfully rented the cottage. I can't wait to read more of this story but I must shove off now.
Ciao for now~
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Truley I do not know when I have read a more satisfying story - I've just finished up a couple of books by new authors and they just do not hold a candle to the writing and depth of meaning in the metaphor's used by Helen Simonson.
Just the opening sentence in Chapter 13 is a perfect allegory to the relationship the Major has with Roger -
"Sunday morning it was sunny and the Major was in the back garden, forking a pile of leaves into a wheelbarrow, when his son's raised voice from the house snapped him to attention and caused him to drop the entire load with a half-formed oath."
I love it - there he is going about the business of his life as if each day is a leaf added to the pile he is gathering and readying to move on to its next resting place when his son, as his son must have called him since he was a child, snaps the Major to attention - there he is all about duty and responsibility - his son's call is not the music of love in his ears but a call to arms so that he drops his life as being separate from his son and then is so annoyed with not being able to juggle both his life and his responsibility to be at beck and call to his son - oh just too funny - so many men who struggle with their role relating to grown children - though I must say more like men 30 and 40 years ago so that this has the ring of history but then there may be spots of places where men still see themselves as separate rather than buddies in the grown-child/father relationships.
Bellamarie - if you are reading this weekend you are in for a treat - let us know your reactions please.
Steph the Major is a poetic kind of guy isn't he - softer on the inside than we can observe in the others - do you like his golfing buddy - to me he sounds like just the kind of fun teasing partner to have while playing golf.
Frybabe there seems to be a couple of turning points in these chapters about the relationship between the Major and Roger - looks like they needed something in common to bond over as adult men. That I thought was a challenge with my own children - trying actually to get them to think of me as a friend so to speak rather than, a matriarchal governor, judge and administrator of moral lectures that seemed to be my role when they were teens.
All of a sudden the story is full with all sorts of threads - country club dances, hunts, plans for a 21st century upscale township, Americans, the guns, Marjorie and her daughter, ladies and the Major, golf and golf buddies, fantasizing about Kipling, Roger and Sandy and their cottage, Mrs. Ali's family, Abdul, Amina and George, Sadie Khan, Grace, on and on it goes - talk about a village full of characters - this story is now full to the brim.
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Grace stays consistantly nice. The Major likes her, but like a friend and I suspect she keeps hoping for more.
Sandy gets better.. At least I think so.
I thought that I had made a dent on my grown up sons to regard me as a friend, but when mdh died , they both seemed to revert to caretakers.. Dont need one, but they honestly believe that they are doing what their Dad wanted. Interesting to watch and now that I have made it clear , that I will make my own decisions, they are calming down.
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Steph I know what you mean about our kids thinking they are supposed to take care of us which more often than not seems to mean to make discussions for us. It sure never occurred to me that we had to push for our own independence and right to choose with our children which makes me wonder just how much do they think we did all those years they were growing up or do they really think all decisions came from their father. Well that is a different conversation isn't it - did you get a kick out how Roger reacted to finding Abdul in the house - a lot of conflict for Roger at that moment but fuuuunnnnny!
And then a man after my own heart when the Major parrots back, "What do you mean 'elderly people'?" - and then "Americans are just like us" oh dear, and so there it is...
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Barb - I don't think they (or at least my children) think that their father did all the thinking when they were little - I think they think that neither of us have any mental capacity whatsoever :) And sometimes I almost agree with them BUT.... at the moment, Anna seems determined to persuade me that I should not buy a house outside Edinburgh city centre, because "what on earth would you do all day?" - of course I can think of plenty of things, but I think she thinks I am living in la-la land, because her 16 year old self wants to be out clubbing asap. Oh well, I bet I was the same at her age.
Rosemary
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:) :D ;D ::) :-*
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Okay, I couldn't resist. Last night I finished off the whole book. Didn't go to bed until 2:45am. Of course, Twerp would have none of me sleeping in this morning. I envision me falling asleep on my evening TV viewing.
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I have looked up "a goose walked over my grave", because although I have frequently heard the saying "someone is walking over my grave" when someone shivers, I had never heard the "goose" part.
The site i found says that the original saying dates from the 18th century, and comes from the idea that if you shiver, someone is walking over the eventual site of your grave. Apparently in Mediaeval times, - according to the writer - the distinction between life and death was more blurred than it is now, and when someone died, a wake was held at which the living would speak to the dead, rather than, as we tend to, about them. The goose bit is thought to be an American variation, maybe associated with the "goose pimples/bumps" we sometimes come out in when we shiver.
Rosemary
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I'm chuckling at the posts about children wondering how we manage to stumble through our days.
Although I was a "stay-at-home Mom" (a term I heartily dislike!!!!), "everyone" knew I was active in the community as well as looking after my family.
Even so, when the first grandchild was born six weeks after my husband died, I was astounded at the number of people who automatically assumed I would move to the town where she lived and become the live-in Nanny. My response was that she had two perfectly good parents and didn't need a third one.
A couple of years later, my bachelor son threatened to tie a bell on me so he could keep up with my whereabouts. I told him I'd wear one if he would...end of conversation! :D
Back to the book: It seems to me that there is beginning to be a subtle shift in our characters' attitudes and behavior. And now there's the Major's neighbor, Alice, entering into the mix.
Hmmmm...
Am I the only one who was absolutely falling out of the chair with laughter at all the shenanigans during the duck hunt and the dance that completely disrupted the attempts to be Proper, Traditional - and Impressive? What a delightful writer Helen Simonson is!
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Yes, I remember seeing a special about how a green glow would appear over a grave - something about the decomposing - and then I was amazed to read how folks set up their huts in cemeteries that later became more sturdy since they were safe there from armed conflict and animals roamed wild something about they could not be killed in cemeteries - the problem being animals sometimes unearthed the dead for supper - I need to find all that again -
Gives the idea of seeing movement and shadows in graveyards new meaning after I learned all that - As a Kid I visited the graveside of family that we just do not do any longer - between perpetual care and cremation it is not the same - back to being a kid in the graveyard and I remember my grandmother telling me not to walk on the grave plot that it brought bad luck and sure enough, when home usually around the table if we were chilled we were given a stern look that we must have walked on someone's grave.
Funny when I read "a goose walked over my grave" it registered as goose step and I quickly let it pass thinking it had something to do with WWII - with both the Major and his dad soldiers it seemed to vaguely fit. Where as it really says 'goose walk' and so I bet you are right about it being a reference to goose bumps.
Whee - you have the whole story now Frybabe - the end of this weeks read sure is a turning point for the Major isn't it - but this ball, dance, whatever - it something else again - the word I use to describe it is a Bacchanalia. I had to put the book down to enjoy parts of it and then the realization that the father's glory caused pain to the here to fore silent Pakistanis - oh dear, oh dear. That is when we realize how difficult life is because we see the world through our own values which filters what and how we see.
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I could picture in my mind's eye the horrified little faces of the children when they witnessed "their" ducks being shot. How cruel for the children to have been allowed to raise the ducks only to see the results.
Again, the free-for-all at the dance - I can see the gaudy colors, the old man ranting, the fist fights, the dishes flying, etc. Yes, I can see why the old man was upset. It brought back memories of a horror no one, especially a child, could erase.
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I am obviously not reading this book with the same mindset as the rest of you.
If you were inclined to respond to my last message - which I seriously doubt - please disregard it.
Thank you.
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Callie thanks so much for posting again - I completely missed your post - we must have been posting at the same time this afternoon - and yes, what a hilarious bit the dance - oh oh oh - you said it -
shenanigans during the duck hunt and the dance that completely disrupted the attempts to be Proper, Traditional
The Duck hunt had its funny moments as well but there are some in this discussion who do not see the humor because of the shooting and trying to be sensitive - we could go on and on and around and around on that how much better the shooting than how animals are slaughtered that we eat and buy at the super market - We are so used to our kids seeing animals dead on the road, hit by vehicles or shot by ranchers that we have a different perspective.
It is interesting that the telling of these two traumas are close to each other in the book - because the trauma to the children in Pakistan those many years ago was not considered when Kudos were given for the bravery to men like the Major's father - they say the victorious write the story - but then we do not eat each other so that trauma I see as painful - Since the children made pets of the ducks is what made it difficult but then we know that hours and hours put into raising an animal named as a pet for 4H that will be sold for slaughter. We still have 4H competition during the annual Spring Rodeo and so it could be Callie our ability to see the humor is because we see things differently than those who are not seeing how food is prepared for sale at the grocery store.
I know I am rather put out with newer neighbors who moved here by the droves from mostly California and they are trying to get rid of the deer that live in our neighborhood - they even secretly hired some folks to come in here at night to trap and shoot them using guns with silencers - it is the heavy handed way folks have of getting what they want that I think is what folks see in raising ducks for a Duck hunt.
But both stories have humor and Alice next door - you can just see her can't you with her banner and the villages confused by the hospitality of the very one they are protesting against. The dichotomy of these incidents is what makes the telling of this story so funny.
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In this section of reading, there were points of hilarity, but also points of real sadness. Here’s one example:
Hilarious --- “Roger and Sandy went to fetch their hamper and as the Major tried not to think of truffles, which he had always avoided because they stank like sweaty groins…” (pg. 175)
Sadness --- “The truth was that now, without his wife to negotiate the space that they occupied as a family, he and Roger seemed to have little common ground. If there had been no bond of blood, the Major felt now, he and Roger would have little reason to continue to know each other at all. … it seemed very sad to be indifferent to one’s own son.” (pg. 190)
The Major is becoming much more a part of Mrs. Ali’s world, from playing with George at the park and being upset that another boy was not allowed to play with George, to Mrs. Ali wanting the Major to speak to Abdul Wahid man to man.
As expected, the dance was quite an affair. The Major and Mrs. Ali did get a lot of attention. However, I expected the strains of the evening to bring them closer together, not to tear them apart!
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Oh Laura truer words were never said - sad but so right - what I find sad is to see how different my children are from one another - they are nice to each other but distant because of those differences that include major political and religious differences - oh dear - all I know it is a delight to visit each since they each have something special that lifts me but I hate it that I cannot share with out frost the goings on of brother's family to sister's family and visa versa.
Sadness --- “The truth was that now, without his wife to negotiate the space that they occupied as a family, he and Roger seemed to have little common ground. If there had been no bond of blood, the Major felt now, he and Roger would have little reason to continue to know each other at all. … it seemed very sad to be indifferent to one’s own son.” (pg. 190)
Haha and yes, my head went up on that one "sweaty groins" - Helen has more courage as a writer than I could imagine - that was funny.
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The duck hunt distressed me. I grew up in the country and have cousins and friends who are all big duck and geese hunters, but they shoot wild ducks and geese. Never ever the situation described.. That is not hunting.. But the writing was excellent. I was shocked at how the situation deteriorated at the dance. I suspect it was all good intentions, but they do tend to get bad.. Still some was really funny, but not Mrs. Ali running away from the Major.. Poor Major.. blamed for others.
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Good morning, Steph - fellow early riser!
We're back from the Carolinas, Charlotte and Charleston - managed to skirt the storms that ripped through the South over the weekend. Back home now, but with a full house - four grandchildren and two of my sons. One leaves for London tomorrow night, but the little ones will be here until the end of the week as this is their spring break from school. We have a busy agenda - and my attendance here will be sketchy - to say the least. I expect they will all be up and ready to go very soon now.
I've read quickly through yesterday's posts and love to read your changing impressions as you read on in the book! Frybabe, you couldn't resist finishing. I knew that would happen! Somehow, I've managed to hold off...and still can't tell how this is going to work out in the end.
My impressilons keep changing - Bella, I'm interested to hear what you think of Sandy - and other characters after reading the next section.
You asked a question that never occurred to me - what does Roger see in Sandy? I was wondering what she sees in him? I'm seeing a change in Sandy - or maybe H.S. is simply revealing something that had been there all along.
As Laura says, there were points of hilarity, but also points of real sadness. Is this rare? There is such a fine line between comedy and tragedy they say. Helen Simonson seems to manage this with ease. Callie, you were not the only one "falling out of your chair laughing" - and probably laughing, knowing you were reading about something traumatic that was happening to those children. How does Simonson manage this?
Rosemary, interesting information on the goose walking on the grave - an American variation, huh? Interesting to remember that our author is from Sussex, now living her in the Washington DC Metro area. (May 5 she is coming to Arlington for a signing. You bet I'll be there.) Does anyone know how long she has lived in the U.S.?
ps - rosemary, I still do talk to the dead.
I'll be back this evening to read more - but don't expect coherence of any kind! :D
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Joan - I believe she has lived in the US for a long time - her website says "over 20 years"
Rosemary
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Quote on "Major Pettigrew from Helen Simonson's web site ..."
I should add that I hope you’ll find the book funny and that you’ll enjoy the Major’s values and character. I believe he might remind us all that the world is what we make of it
I had not read this until this morning so it had not influenced my finding the humor in various situations instead of focusing on the "social issues".
BTW, the children were not supposed to be at the Duck Shoot. Quoting, "I'm giving them a trip to the bowling alley and an ice cream party on the pier", said Dagenham. "What on earth do they have to be upset about?"
Had the activist adults not intervened, they wouldn't have witnessed the massacre of their pets.
I'm not offering an opinion of this sort of thing - just commenting.
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I've been up and down with a virus for the last week and just caught up the posts...
Callie : You're not alone - I find the book hilarious in parts, but sad in others and at times downright annoying - well, the characters and their actions are - especially in the toffee nosed attitudes some have towards Mrs Ali.
Mrs Ali is still just too perfect. I keep trying to remember that we are seeing all this through the Major's perspective and he's certainly wearing his rose-tinted glasses when he looks at Mrs Ali. He should put them on sometimes when he's looking at Roger who seems to be continually striving for his father's approval and when he doesn't get it he abruptly goes his own way.
Can't make up my mind about Sandy but I have the feeling she is not all bad either though if Roger really is as self centred and thoughtless as he's made to appear by the Major then one wonders why any women would be bothered with him.
Young George is great and Amina knows what she wants - I hope it's the right thing for her as well as her son.
The golfing buddy Alec? is a perfect foil for the Major. Odd how different types often become inseparable. The Major loves formality and is set in his ways whilst Alec is more relaxed and freer in his attitudes. Not that the Major and Alec are inseparable but they are long time friends and golfing buddies so they've been through a bit together.
The church & golf club ladies are fun - stereotypes perhaps. At first they were a blur - all cut from the same cloth - but now their individuality is beginning to appear and one can tell one from the other. I was intrigued by their names - Daisy, Alma, Grace and of course Alice next door. All named for a reason no doubt though the names seem slightly old fashioned for those born say during the late 1930s or early 40s which was a time for Barbara and Patricia et al although the names chosen are always in use.
sorry, I'm rambling
JoanP Thanks for managing that online interview with HS - such excellent insights and what a coup to have her come back again when we reach the end.
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JoanP with a house full of family this time of year when it is not yet too hot - what fun...I bet the kitchen gets a good workout.
Rosemary do you remember where in Britain Helen lived before she came to the States? I wonder why the big move.
Callie did you get a kick out of imagining the scene where the Major and Morris are trying to stop the shooting when the protesters took to the field - amidst all the commotion is Alice Pierce giving off a cry of rage and she "threw herself on the young man like a woolly boulder" while the adults "chasing farm youths, jabbing about their signs like pitchforks." and the banker who says, "Maybe we should just shoot them," what a hoo-ha - the slogans on the signs were precious - how much fun that would be to see on film - this story is a movie waiting to happen.
Ouch Gumtree - hope you are feeling better - no way to start the cold weather months is it - I love your expression "the toffee nosed attitudes" Mrs. Ali shows she knows she is not part of the 'ladies' but the sentence from the Major I thought was wonderful - "Then don't make me go in there alone, like a spare part," followed up by the most gallant Edwardian statement - "When they hand me my silver plate, I want to walk back and sit with the most elegant woman in the room." Oh my, and then look at how frozen he was on the stairs when Mrs. Ali left the dance mumbling in his head something about guns.
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Oh gosh, it is a horrible scene, the poor children so upset about the ducks being shot, but you have to laugh too because it almost comes across as a comedy of errors, like trying to corral a wild herd that has gone off in all directions.
Lord D, "I'll have you brought up on negligence charges for letting innocent children join in such a riot"
"Negligence?," said Alice. "You shot at them."
"We didn't shoot at them, woman, they ran into the guns."
Someone asked what Roger saw in Sandy. He'd never admit it, but I think he knows that Sandy is smarter than he is about the ways of smart business people. She genuinely enjoys people and they like her. She's a good negotiator. As for what she sees -- it's not really a fair trade off, and you see her tightening the reins on him from time to time.
Poor Abdul Wahid. I find my feelings about him changing. He may not be the most personable guy around, but he is trying so hard to be a man of honor, a good son, and do the right thing.
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Gum, hope you are fully recovered - We miss your frankness. Yes, some of the characters are "downright annoying." Do you think Helen S. intended them to annoy us?
The only type woman who would be interested in Roger would be one who shared his same ambition. They would be using one another. They would ask of their relationship - "What does love have to do with it?" So at this point, Sandy should be revelling in Roger's success, don't you think? Does anyone LIKE Roger? I can't help but wonder if his own mother liked him much. What does that say about a person? But Pedln points out that people DO like Sandy. She seems interested in other people. Is she changing since we first met her? Or is H.S. peeling off layers that begin to reveal the real person underneath her veneer? Don't you find Roger to be the most complicated in this cast of characters?
Callie - it is interesting to note that the author intended this to be a funny story ... Because her writing is bringing out such a strong response from her readers on social issues and values. It IS great that she is coming back to talk about her book. Is it time to start gathering a list of questions for her? (Not about the ending itself yet, as there are still some of us who haven't finished... ;)) Is there something you would like to ask her?
Barbara, I think that she mentioned returning to her "beloved Sussex" in a previous interview. I believe she is writing from her own memory here when describing Sussex...
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"When we pick and choose around the rules, we discover later we have set aside something precious in the process."
What do You think of this statement? Are you one who picks and chooses around the rules? This is the one thought I can't seem to shake while considering these chapters? There are several characters in these chapters who may have said this. Do you remember who it was? What is Helen S. saying about this in her story?
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The book is such a lovely mix of fun and sadness.. joy and misunderestandings.. Roger baffles me.. He seems to have no social manners at all. Like an infant.. I want it,, gimme..Oh well. Sandy does however seem to be shaping up nicely.. Maybe she can change him as well.
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Good morning ladies and gents if I missed you, I am packing to leave to spend a couple days a Great Wolf Lodge an indoor waterpark with my son's family and taking my two grndsons (3 & 9) with me since my other son is unable to get off work and his wife is staying home with the 4 week old baby. It ought to prove to be a funfilled, exhausting two days, so wish me luck!
I have not yet gotten to the dance, but I can tell by some of your posts it turns out to be just what I was expecting. I sensed from the planning stages this would have the unexpected mish mosh going on. I can't wait to read it, I shall try on my drive to GWL if my 3 yr old grnd son Zak allows me to concentrate long enough in the car.
I found it very interesting how Mrs. Ali and her nephew now are dealing with his son George. Family shame seems to be their concern, yet this book is taking place in the recent years which as it is mentioned so much of the shame of out of wedlock children are socially accepted. Mrs. Ali sure has taken an instant liking/love to George.
Callie~I am enjoying the humor and laughing out loud. I also had to giggle when I read your part about the cow bell. Great response "If he wears one too." My kids all seem to think I am the decision maker and always have been. I do have a bit of a strong will and independent personality. I sense if and when I should be a widow they will feel I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself. Then is when I suspect I would welcome their input. Just not to the point of not allowing me to remain independent. lol
H. S. has done a marvelous job in writing a book that allows the reader to relate to all the characters good/bad. She has a writing style like no one I have ever read. This book is just what I needed and I hope it doesn't disappoint me in the end because I am wondering what Roger and Sandy's motives are for all of a sudden deciding to become close to the Major.
Okay, one more time I am going to ask, why didn't the Major seem more interested in the gun once he finally had it in his possession? I am sensing just getting the gun was more important to him then the gun itself. Having the gun may be his rite to passage. He seems to have this idea because he was the first born he had the rite to the gun. I am second to the youngest of seven children and I can tell you throughout my years nothing bothered me more than to hear my oldest sisters say, "We should go from the oldest down." Seems this is how the Major has lived his life. A bit selfish and arrogant if I say so. The Major gives the impression it bothers him that others find the pair of guns nothing more than a means to money, yet he seems to be wanting the pair to show off to his hunting buddies. When it comes right down to it, I don't think the guns have any value emotionally to anyone. His brother was not even inclined to make certain their was a clause for the gun to go directly back to the Major if and when he died before him.
I do like the Major and feel other than his actions about the gun, up to this point he seems so caring. I sense he and Mrs. Ali will end up together, they compliment each other and share so much in common for spending their later years in life together. Alice is he silly neighbor everyone seems to have and a bit eccentric with her staking out in the bushes. lolol
Okay gotta run but will check in soon. Off to finish packing and hope to succeed reading the next chapters to enjoy the hullabaloo of the ball....as it seems the posts tempt me I am in for a treat.
Ciao for now~
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Well, I have finished the book, for the second time. I am having a problem, though. As soon as I finish a section, I realize that I cannot remember what I have read. Do any of you find that happens for you?
The duck hunk seemed upsetting to me. I do not understand how grown ups can enjoy shooting ducks that were raised just to be shot and killed. But, then, I cannot understand anyone loving guns! I am glad that none of the children was injured, or killed!
I think that both Sandy, and Roger, are quite self centered, and money/status wannabes. I find myself wondering how Roger could have turned out the way he has, after being raised by his mother, Nancy. From everything the Major has said, or thought about Nancy, she seems to have been a great wife, and mother. As loving as she sounds, why didn't Roger develop consideration, and love of others? I think there might be some hope for Sandy.
I love the section about the appearance of both the Major and Mrs. Ali. I was apprehensive about their welcome. It sounds at the time they arrive at the dance, that it will be a magical evening. I know that the Major did not follow her when she left, because he did not want the other attendees, to realize that he and Mrs. A, were a couple. Fear about what will others think? I am disappointed in him.
Sheila
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bellamarie hope you enjoy your outing with your family - sounds like you have a full day or so ahead of you - interesting isn't it how by chance memories are made - you know they will remember it was Grandma that they were with at the Great Wolf Lodge. Cannot wait till you can share your experience reading about the dance - sounds like you have had a few moments where the story made you question and consider - nothing does settle down with that second gun does it - As you say, the Major gets it in shape but then, it is like until he has a legal OK the gun is not his to pour over. Also, what do you think - I think he is pulled by the realization he will not be around forever and sooner or later the guns will be sold to benefit Roger and Jemima's bank account which makes the guns represent money rather than family pride and tradition.
Twice Sheila - wow - how many books have your ever read twice - but it is full to the brim isn't it for such a current and simple story there is a lot packed into these pages - Did y'all see that one of the books read last year, The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society made it to Cliffnotes, which says it will be around for awhile and may even be read in schools - I wonder if that will be the future for Major Pettigrew's Last Stand...
Roger does seem all over the place isn't he - he acts more to me like someone looking for approval from everyone and anyone - I wonder if that is what happens when a boy grows into a man and does not feel he has his father's approval - it is not that the Major disapproves openly but he certainly judges Roger as wanting. I doubt if that is a new mannerism on the part of the Major so that it could be he left childrearing to Nancy and being away in the army he never really connected or, as they say today, bonded with his son.
Although, I must say I see more young men like Roger and I cannot imagine they were all brought up with distant fathers. Maybe there is a challenge for men to know their value and place in such a fast changing world so that they too are caught between tradition and this fast moving open way of life where anyone with an idea and willing to risk can make tons of money. Being on the cusp of this new freedom leaves us feeling insecure with no road-map.
In fact, that is part of what I saw in the Major's 'fear about what will others think?" when he stopped and didn't take Mrs. Ali home - The others represent tradition, the life he has been comfortable living where as following Mrs. Ali is new, with no road-map, scary, he would have to carve out a new identity for himself. He is not a teenager who has time to make many mistakes and hanging on to what is traditional is security. Mrs. Ali represents so much - even happiness that he has to accept because with so many reference to Nancy it seems he has been existing on creating order within the traditions with friends he knows and depended on to see him through life after the death of Nancy and now, he could choose to make a new life - again scary.
Maybe that is the difference between father and son - I am talking out loud here as this thought just popped into my head - Roger did not have a pivotal moment where he saw possibilities - it has been a daily part of his young adult life - wait a minute that could be it - Sandy is easily able to dance with non-traditional life style choices - we in the States are not as tied to 'tradition' and as a successful business women she was part of a non-traditional ladder of opportunity so, she had to learn how to maneuver without a road-map. As pedln said in her post, "he knows that Sandy is smarter than he is about the ways of smart business people." Looks like that is what Roger instinctively sees in Sandy.
Gives a new significance to the purchase of the cottage - to Sandy it was probably an investment in charm and in Roger. Where as, Roger needs to fill his childhood memories, represented by the cottage with the newest and latest. He is not yet at ease and certainly his father is no help towards his living a successful life based in freedom where the measure is money And then, we see Roger supporting his father's ownership of the guns and Roger takes on proudly the role of his Grandfather in the play so that he has a foot in both worlds with an affiliation for family tradition.
OK Sheila, you and others may have other points of view but your observation started me on a whole new way of looking at one of the issues being explored in this story. We hear so much about the Arab world having to face modernity and here this story shows us how much we are all attached to our traditions.
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Ah ha! Found it!
"When we pick and choose around the rules, we discover later we have set aside something precious in the process."
Abdul Wahid said this on page 181.
I think he was thinking of his own life when he made this statement. He discovered that he has a son, a result of a relationship that his family did not approve of. He ignored the family’s opinion by dating someone they did not like. However, but picking and choosing among he rules, or in his case, not following the advice of his family, he finds himself in a moral dilemma --- how to balance the obligation of having and properly raising a son with the approval of his family. I think he has set aside two precious people, his lover and his son. I don’t think there is a way to make everyone happy.
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Bellamarie asked, “Why didn't the Major seem more interested in the gun once he finally had it in his possession?”
I think the Major was so relieved once he had the gun in his possession that it didn’t constantly occupy his thoughts --- wondering how he was going to get it back, wondering what was going to happen to it, wondering if he would he be tricked into selling the gun in his possession. It seems to me that because the book is so much an inner dialogue of the Major’s, that once he could relax about the gun and not constantly worry about it, it disappeared from the story too. I don’t take its lack of mention as a lack of interest, but as a sense of relief that it wasn’t something to worry about anymore.
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Barbara said, “Gives a new significance to the purchase of the cottage - to Sandy it was probably an investment in charm and in Roger. Where as, Roger needs to fill his childhood memories, represented by the cottage with the newest and latest”
I think the cottage does represent two entirely different things to Sandy and Roger, as you say. I think Sandy genuinely wants a place to retreat and spend time with Roger. In that sense, it is an investment in their relationship together. However, I don’t think Roger takes the same view at all. I think Roger views the cottage as an investment in a business sense, as a status symbol, a means to an end of future business connections and future wealth.
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Great Laura - ta da - 3 ringers - great find on the quote and the realization of its meaning - golly this book offers much to think on.- another point of view why the Major is not as obsessed with the second gun after it is in his possession - and yep, Roger sees the financial benefit buying cheap and owning the cottage in such a good appreciating market -
I'm seeing from this story what we value even in the states changing from the concept that to be rich meant more than having healthy sell-able investments - I see it as many of us downsize hoping to pass along our good silver, crystal and china but the younger generation does not want them - they no longer entertain that way and so we see full silver Tea Services that may have been our mother's in garage sales for $35. and Lenox for 12 selling pennies on the dollar where as other things have increased in value because of collectors, like the guns, the idea of cashing out family history is changing what identifies wealth. That idea may be better seen with the guns - but it is amusing the 'things' with which Roger chooses to decorate the cottage..
I wonder does it take seeing a women vulnerable in order for her to be like-able - while Sandy was described as the successful business women we were not sure we liked her but seeing her in tears, alone our opinion changes.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
April 16 - 24 ~ Chapters 13-17
(E-readers ~ Last lines in Chapter 17:
..."She hurried down the driveway, and as she disappeared, blue dress into deep night, he knew he was a fool. Yeat at that moment, he could not find a way to be a different man." *****
For Consideration
April 16-24 ~ Chapters 13-17
1. "When we pick and choose around the rules, we discover later we have set aside something precious in the process." Do you remember who said this? The Major? Sandy? Abdul Wahid? Mrs. Ali?
2. How do you score on first impressions? Has your first impression of Sandy changed? Perhaps she herself has changed? Do you see a future for Sandy and Roger?
3. Can you tell how long the relationship between Roger and the Major has been strained or what caused it? How does Abdul Wahid's relationship with his father differ?
4. What does the shop represent to Mrs. Ali? When she offers the shop to her nephew is she giving away more than the financial investment?
5. Did the duck hunt on Lord Dagenham's estate fulfill the Major's expectations? Did Roger's presence spoil his dream of showing off the Churchills?
6. Had the Major expected that Ferguson was going to "pillage the village" with his drastic redevelopment of St. Mary Edgecombe? Why is the Major the key to the success of the village makeover?
7. What is Ferguson's real interest in the Churchills?
8. Was Mrs. Ali's ravishing appearance at the ball something out of a fairy tale? What were your most vivid memories of the evening - before the ensuing melee?
9. What was the cause of Mr. Rasool's outburst that led to the bruhaha abruptly ending the entertainment?
10.. What stopped the Major from running down the driveway to take Mrs. Ali home?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson, Part 1 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html);
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118);
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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To Ginny,, All of a sudden, I have a white box below.. Amazon.
The book and the guns.. I too think that once the Major got the gun and then was so horrified at how it looked, they no longer knows what to think. I dont think it occurred to him that his brother did not treasure his gun the way the Major did.
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Steph it is interesting isn't it to learn that our siblings treasure in life different things and experiences than we treasure - I have two sisters and there is a bit we have in common - more with my younger sister, who is 15 years younger than with the sister that is closest to me in age. I see that in my own children as well - interesting, since I keep coming back to the fact we were all brought up in the same home with the same parents - makes you wonder just how much influence in our lives is our home and parents.
And then, there is the whole thing of desiring to hang onto reminders of certain memories of home that others in the family also want to keep close - for our family it is all my mother's photos - you would think the sister who ahum 'grabbed' them would share by uploading them but it seems to be a source of special connection that the ownership of the photos represents. ah so... sad though...
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Been wondering if where any of you live there had been a new high dollar subdivision development planned or built and how it affected the rest of the community? Or like here in the Austin area - it would be more like - so what else is new - we keep growing and growing with more and more ranch land and small communities being gobbled up in the growth and some of the closer in land holdings are developed into high dollar neighborhoods - For many of us it is the displacement of wildlife that is part of the thinking many new to Austin bring with them and is causing more friction with those who have lived in Austin most or all of their lives. What about where you live?
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Barb, I haven't paid much attention recently to the real estate market here in the Harrisburg, PA area, but they were going nuts a few years back with expensive sub-divisions. I just kept wondering who all these people are that can afford something like that and where they are coming from. A lot of the business expansion around here has been in medical or warehousing. There is a small (so far) community of $1M+ up the road a few miles from me. What really gets my goat is that the land is rather steep, on the south side of part of the Blue Mountain ridge. I consider it part of the watershed for our area and don't like seeing it planted in houses.
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Barb, interesting what you say about siblings being so different, being raised in the same home by the same parents. But, actually, speaking from my own experience as a parent with 4 daughters in 5 years, each one was born into a different family. We were certainly different as parents with each one. I'd like to believe that we matured and had hopefully learned something from each child, and from the experience of having one, then two, then three, then four children. And I'd think the greater the age differences, the greater the differences in parenting and family dynamics.
I've often heard, and found it true in our experience, that oldest siblings in different families will have more in common, even if they aren't the same age, etc. Interesting stuff!
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Ginny and Barb, Your comments on siblings reminded me of a book I read about how the birth order affects your characteristics. I can't remember the name of the book, but it was very interesting and somewhat true in my own experience. I had 3 sisters--two older, and one younger. There were 14 years difference between the oldest and youngest. After both of our parents died, we all met at the house and spent a week --laughing, crying, remembering and clearing everything out and getting the house ready to sell. The will left everything to us equally. I am so fortunate that my sisters and I are very close, and more concerned with relationships than "things". We decided we would put the things we all wanted in one of the bedrooms. The rest of the things were taken by whoever wanted them or left for the estate sale. Then we drew numbers and set about "picking" the items that we all wanted. We had agreed ahead of time that all the old photos should stay together and the person who got them would make copies for all of us, as that was the main thing that we all wanted. It worked out quite well, and my sister who got the photos made copies for the rest of us.
Sally
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There were several comments, "quotes" in chapters 16 & 17 that I thought were quite good. In chapt. 16--people didn't recognize Mrs. Ali out of her element. Oh my, how many times have you run into someone that you recognized, but couldn't quite "place" them because they were out of their element??
In chapter 17 HS states, "People who were alone & ignored often appeared less attractive than when surrounded by admiring companions."
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Uh oh, I accidentally hit the wrong button and posted before I was through commenting.
At the end of chap. 17 after the party disaster when the major let Mrs. Ali go he knew he was a fool. Yet at that moment, he could not find a way to be a different man.
There's another description that I thought was quite good. I wrote the quote down, but forgot to reference where I found it, but I think it was around chapt. 16 or 17: The major states, "None of these thoughts was the least usuable. The major was mentally a hooked carp, its mouth opening and closing on the useless oxygen." Don't you just love that image??? I do love HS way with words.
Sally
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Oh my, how many times have you run into someone that you recognized, but couldn't quite "place" them because they were out of their element??
Sally, I'm totally off topic here, but your comment just triggered something. I remember an early-bird (5 -7 am) swimmer blushing and telling how words just popped out of her mouth -- while standing in the supermarket lane, for all the world to hear --"Oh Dr W, I didn't recognize you with clothes on."
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Just got my copy from the library a couple of days ago. Once I started reading I couldn't stop and had to finish. :) I've been reading all the interesting comments. Will just add one thing--I can understand the old man being upset at the themed portrayal, but why was he brought? Surely Mrs. Rasool knew about the theme and her father (or father in law, not sure which) would be upset.
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Two observations from Chapter 13:
Quoting Sandy, "Roger doesn't like to talk about religion...no religion, no politics, sex only through innuendo - it's no wonder you British obsess about the weather..."
I remember being on a trip in France when the group was told it is impolite to ask a French person about their work, family, home, (most of the things we would use as conversation starters) - but perfectly all right to discuss politics and religion.
I don't remember sex being mentioned but I do remember how startled and uncomfortable one cute tour guide became when a sweet older lady in our group asked if she had a boyfriend. Our main tour guide softly told the young guide that Americans don't think this is rude. She covered nicely by saying "My heart is already taken."
In a later part of the same conversation, when Roger is going on and on about putting off marriage and how the "working class and foreigners" are "totally oblivious about birth control and things" and how he and Sandy might be ready in six months to "at least buy a place together", there are two tell-tale statements about Sandy.
"Sandy paid close attention to her wineglass and said nothing". and
"Sandy drained her wineglass and said nothing."
Hmmm...a hint of things to come?
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Well we are finishing up the third week of our reading and it reminds me of climbing steps to a high diving board - the first two weeks we were climbing the steps observing the landscape the pool is set in - and now this week it seems we are on the diving board bouncing with the issues that will change when next week we dive and plunge into the pool of new feelings and values for our characters.
Callie that was a great bit to remind us of the differences between Roger and Sandy - that Roger does not seem to have a clue that Sandy would have a different idea for the outcome of their relationship. Sandy seems smart and knowing and hated to see her hurt - Sandy defiantly is one of the successful 'new' business women and with Roger taking to protecting the right of ownership for the Churchill and taking pride in portraying his grandfather he may be staying with a more traditional outlook on life where men expected to make the decisions.
FlaJean - I am smiling because I can just imagine you glued to the pages sitting in your chair with the lamp on day and night - not even taking time out for a sip of coffee but letting it grow cold. I just know you are enjoying yourself. Oh yes, and calculating advanced reactions - often when a childhood memory hits it is because of other stimulations so that the same reaction would not take place at all times - it could be the raucous dance was closer to the raucous crowds on that fateful day providing an additional stimulant than simply sharing his memory with family over a cup of tea - All anger is - is a cover for hurt and fear and so there must have been a lot of covered hurt and fear that the nature of the evening touched just like a returning vet will sometimes react and other times there is no expression of panic or rage.
Pedln - oh my - we know you turned red how about the Doctor did he smile...
Salan - great quotes but the last to me is so poignant - when the major let Mrs. Ali go he knew he was a fool. Yet at that moment, he could not find a way to be a different man
. I can just feel how frozen he was perched on those steps wishing time would stand still - that he could not step forward into a new day with all the new values attached and yet, his attachment to the past and all his friends was no longer as deep and satisfying so that all he could do is mumble something about guns.
And you and your sisters were a dream example of how we would all like it to be - you are fortunate and I am so pleased to know there really are folks in this world who can love and support each other with fairness and caring.
Maryz - interesting point of view that each child really has a different set of parents - I have heard that theory - I just think that school, teachers, and friends have more influence than we give them credit because I can see some difference coming about because of parents maturing in their job but some families the children as adults are so different it boggles the mind.
One of my favorite programs that I think are all re-runs now and I did not see the show when it was first featured is the show called 'Brothers and Sisters' with Sally Fields as the matriarch. Love that it has just about every dynamic for today represented by these grown children - there does seem to be a common thread of support and way of out-and-out stating their opinion that they all share that seems to be a family characteristic. But agree the show also shows each grown child with a different political view and they each approach life's difficulties with their own unique personality.
Frybabe have you noticed the age range of those in the upscale high dollar newly built homes - they seem all to be under the age of 45 - I am convinced that the social media is getting more wealth building to happen than all the knowing-this-one-or-that-one that was the 'insider' consideration for success among the older generations. Just about everyone I talk with says how these upscale million dollar homes are filling up this or that corner of their area. Then with their influx in comes another group of stores that cater to that income bracket - some that make a nice difference in our living and I am sure the city fathers are delighted with the higher property tax filling up the holes in the city's budget. No black or white in any of this is there.
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I think the Major "steps into the unknown" more easily when he doesn't stop to think about his actions. Mrs. Ali is usually the reason for this.
For instance, when he suggested that Abdul Wahid stay with him for a few days..."The Major surprised himself with the offer, which seemed to emerge of its own accord."
When Mrs. Ali hesitates about going into the dance and he has sponstaneously made some dryly humorous comments..."He stopped, feeling that these were stupid ways to encourage her."
Barb, I also like "Brothers and Sisters" - and I think there are 2 or 3 more episodes before the season finale. "The plot is thickening" and I suspect we'll be left with a cliff hanger - as usual.
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It's been quite a hectic, though wonderful week around here - son visiting from London, another son visiting this week with four little ones ages 4-9 - - and an exciting last evening when the Washington Capitals managed to stay alive in the last of their series with the NY Rangers! For those of you who don't know - this is the local hockey team. They practice here in Arlington - of course we went over to see them practice this week and grandson got an autograph. There is an adjacent rink to where the pros play - open to the public. As it turned out, I had to go out on the ice to help the kids! Ha! You should see my knees! Skating after not skating for 40 years is NOT the same thing as getting back on a bike...it does NOT come back to you! (At least it didn't come back to me!)
Anyway, they are on their way home now - It is so quiet here! Of course I miss them. But am finally able to sit and think and respond to some of your posts. It's great that Helen Simonson has agreed to return after her trip during the first week in May - we can extend our time together a few days. This is good as April is a short month and we have Easter and Passover coming up. So let's extend our discussion of this section from Sunday the 24th to Monday the 25th...
Do you have any questions over this section for Helen Simonson when she comes in in early May?
I'm reading your posts now - will try to be brief in comments as I try to catch up with you all.
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Looking at the questions in the heading, no. 6 in particular. About Dagenham's plans for the village -- I'm a bit confused about the ownership issues here. Dagenham doesn't own the village, does he? He tells the Major how he's offering a place of refuge to those who can no longer keep their country estates. When the Major asks about those who already live in the village he says, "oh, we'll keep them." He's to the manor born, yes, and is lord of the manor, but how far does that extend?
I understand that Major owns his own home, not Lord D; likewise the same for neighbor Alice. So Lord D wants the Major to help convince the villagers, the locals that his plans will be of benefit to them. Hmmmm. Good luck with that.
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"When we pick and choose around the rules, we discover later we have set aside something precious in the process."
Laura, yes, it was Abdul Wahid who made this comment. As you say, "picking and choosing among the rules, or in his case, not following the advice of his family, he finds himself in a moral dilemma."
I found myself puzzling over this concept more than anything else as I read this book. There are a number of characters who would agree with A.Wahid - but isn't Helen Simonson saying that you really must pick and choose, not rigidly adhering to the rules ? Do you find yourself picking and choosing? I do. Yet here she rights that something precious is lost in so doing.
I am really interested in what others think of this?
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Pedln, we were posting together - you ask an interesting question.
Lord Dagenham is the Lord of the Manor. I don't think he owns Rose Lodge, but he may own the fields behind the Major's house. He may own a lot of the land - and he is having a hard time keeping up with the expense associated with the manor. So when Ferguson comes along with the offer to develop this land for a nice profit, he cannot refuse. Even though he knows this will not be popular with the villagers. He's counting on the Major to sell the idea to those who own land and homes.
It would only be a matter of time when the luxury homes were built that the villagers would not be able to resist selling their land for a profit. That's the disquieting thing about the story - even the Vicar is silent about the takeover - because he's been promised a new steeple. Ferguson's money is fueling the development.
I wonder how common it is in England for quaint little villages to morph into theme park developments. Is Helen S. exaggerating a bit in this area, or has it already happened, do you think?
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Sally, I love it when you refresh the memory - I reallly liked this one -
"People who were alone & ignored often appeared less attractive than when surrounded by admiring companions."
I think H.S. is so original in her observations. Maybe that's why I am drawn to first time authors these days - so fresh and unpredictable. No formula. You don't know what to expect.
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FlaJean -
You are amazing! The whole book in one sitting! I can't remember when was the last time I did that.
I thought back to the tasting at the Taj Mahal Take Out - remember when both Mr. and Mrs. Rasool insisted on listening in to the food selection - grim faces, non too happy? They were introduced as the founders of restaurant - it seems they still took an active role in the business, or they wouldn't have been there. I'm sure that Mrs. Rasool would not be able to keep them away if she tried. But what was it that made Mr. Rasool jump to his feet in protest during the performance?
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"Roger doesn't like to talk about religion...no religion, no politics, sex only through innuendo ..." Callie
Does Roger seem real to you? Sandy says she thinks Roger's father is real. Is this to say that she feels Roger is NOT REAL?
Do you get the feeling that Helen Simonson intends some of these characters to be so annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even? Ferguson, Roger for example? Shall we ask her?
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"Roger doesn't like to talk about religion...no religion, no politics, sex only through innuendo ..." Callie
Does Roger seem real to you? Sandy says she thinks Roger's father is real. Is this to say that she feels Roger is NOT REAL?
Do you get the feeling that Helen Simonson intends some of these characters to be so annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even? Ferguson, Roger for example? Shall we ask her?
Unfortunately, Roger does seem real to me. Although the town I live in was originally a college town - and still is- , it became the "upscale" suburb of OKC and I see many people of Roger's age who have the same attitude.
I think HS intends to point out all sorts of stereotypes through the various characters she so skillfully depicts through their comments and thoughts. It will be interesting to see what happens in the final chapters as she wraps up the various stories.
I'd love to see her comments on this.
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Roger seems real, to me, too. I have heard quite a few people in his age range, voice similiar comments, to those Roger makes. I've said before, I don't know how Roger turned out the way he did, with Nancy as a mother. From what is said about his mother, she seems down to earth, kind and compassionate.
I am another fan of "Brothers and Sisters". In my area they are still showing new segments. Right now, Nora has reconnected with an old flame from high school.
Love and hugs,
Sheila
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Callie I like the statement you make -
I think HS intends to point out all sorts of stereotypes through the various characters she so skillfully depicts through their comments and thoughts
yes, that is how I see it as well - and is she ever skillful at entertaining us with all these different shades of society represented by each character.
Sheila it is a mystery isn't it - Roger is not just reacting to his Dad but to life in general so differently than the Major and yet, not like Sandy either - he does come across as a man with dollar signs or rather pounds for eyes - but then these chapters I see a change as he embraces some of what his father cherishes - he still seems to be looking though for the dollar compensation and the prestige which the Major shuns.
Joan you quoted Callie and asked...
As you say, "picking and choosing among the rules, or in his case, not following the advice of his family, he finds himself in a moral dilemma."
I found myself puzzling over this concept more than anything else as I read this book. There are a number of characters who would agree with A.Wahid - but isn't Helen Simonson saying that you really must pick and choose, not rigidly adhering to the rules ? Do you find yourself picking and choosing? I do. Yet here she rights that something precious is lost in so doing.
One of the things lost is freedom to choose - once you choose than the freedom to make any other choice is no longer an option plus, since the other choices are not acted upon or adopted all the incremental and complimentary additions to those choices do not see the light of day - thus a loss of freedom to choose after a choice is made and the loss of the many other paths or decorations to life that accompany each choice etc.
Then, there is the concept of saying you are making a choice when really, the choice was made for you by some elder - [at age 2 most of us were strongly advised by an elder not to play in the street] For us to not follow in the footsteps set by elders there are aspects of the choice-not-taken that no longer adds to our life - there is a loss of security that cames with doing what was laid out as a plan for life - there is the loss of honoring the elders who, using their wisdom laid out the plan - It would be like during battle the officers may know the formula to up the odds of a win using the equipment, men and plan according to what they learned in a war academy - where as, a creative officer may try something new and actually succeed - and so, trying new tactics is added to the repertoire at the expense of strict obedience as well as, the loss of sticking to the traditional tried and true.
Once strict obedience to the tried and true is set aside for one event than the theory of strict obedience is in question and so, there are changes to the entire command system. The changes mean some traditions are lost but more, it means there is less secure knowing with less control over the resources [men and arms] and less control over planning resulting in other skills replacing strict obedience.
Finally, if there are enough folks who pick and choose influenced by events or through coercion other than the traditional that is how culture or products, even language is lost.
Thinking about it I see lots of choices in families that results in something lost - like Sunday dinner with the good china and silver - like the change for women using their education and skills in the work place which has changed not only motherhood but the role of grandmothers. We no longer sit on the front porch rocking and knitting while we keep an eye on the grandchildren dependent often on our children for a home. All those collective, societal choices are showing up in ads, travel opportunities etc. Lost is having in-house unquestionable care for latch-key children, a constant monitor for children at play, hand-made socks and sweaters by the dozens with maybe a quilt or two thrown in - someone for Mom to talk with at any hour - and yes, the expectations of yet, one more elder.
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One of the things lost is freedom to choose - once you choose than the freedom to make any other choice is no longer an option plus, since the other choices are not acted upon or adopted all the incremental and complimentary additions to those choices do not see the light of day - thus a loss of freedom to choose after a choice is made and the loss of the many other paths or decorations to life that accompany each choice etc.
Your comment struck me, Barb. In my accounting class, recently, we learned about what they call in accounting an opportunity cost. It is much as you describe here. By making a choice to go back to school, for example, I've locked myself out of working during that period. I am convinced that I didn't get a second interview for a job because they needed someone before classes end for this semester. It was a little annoying actually, because the ad said part-time when in fact they wanted full-time. Won't have that problem over the summer though.
I think I will see what I can find on current real estate law in England. When I was there back in 65' is was explained to me that you own your house and can buy and sell, but the land itself belongs to the Queen. I don't know how the Lords, etc. with the big estates fit in. Back in feudal times, the Lords owned the villages too. No one could move or get married, etc. without the Lord's approval. Actually, we have a similar thing here that I just learned of a year or so ago. Hershey (yes, of Hershey Kisses fame) owns land in Middletown that has a housing development on it (I am not sure if there are others). You can buy and sell your house but the land is Hershey's. There are certain restrictions and you must pay a land rent of some very small amount (and I mean small, but I don't remember exactly the amount, under $10 is what I recall) to the foundation.
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Frybabe - as far as I know, the Queen does not own all of the freehold land in the UK - but I could be wrong. Of course she does own vast tracts of the country in her own name, as do other mega rich people like the Duke of Westminster.
England, Wales and N Ireland have two types of ownership, freehold and leasehold. Freehold means that you can buy/sell at will. Leasehold means that you always have a superior landlord, and usually have to get his/her consent to sell, although modern leases would say something like "not to be unreasonably withheld".
In Scotland until recently every piece of land was held under the "feudal" system, which meant that everyone had a feudal "superior", but recent legislation abolished all feudal titles, so that the system is now more or less in line with the rest of the UK.
The big estates are owned by whoever owns them - in Aberdeenshire that would normally be the local laird whose family have owned the estate for centuries. The estate will also usually own the houses and land in the local villages. Hwever, as time has passed, some estates have sold off houses to raise cash. Some estates have also been sold in their entirety either to wealthy "outsiders" or to corporate investors. You may have heard of the Knoydart Estate, a remote estate in western Scotland. This was bought by a businessman - I think he was Dutch or German - who then more or less abandoned the place and went bankrupt. The estate owned the entire area and all of the houses. The people who live there managed to buy the estate back for themselves, so I suppose it is now run as some sort of collective. They would probably have received at least some money from the Scottish Executive to do this, as they are supposed to support rural/remote communities. This is however quite unusual - where I used to live Deeside there were at least five huge local estates, of which only one was owned by someone who had not been born into it.
The lairds do not, however, have any say in who marries whom any more!
Rosemary
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Whew.. Lots of long replies to go through this morning. The Major, I had great sympathy for him in the horror and confusion of the dance.. He really was frozen in place and I know that feeling. Sometimes things happen and you dont react quite as quickly as you hope. I have some regrets about that sort of behavior.
Roger to me is simply awful.. I dont understand the relationship between Roger and the Major..
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Thanks for the clarification Rosemarykaye. Perhaps, my relative was talking about his situation or area in which he lived. At any rate, I didn't mean the Queen per se, but as a representative of the country's land trust as a whole. The Hershey Trust land sounds a lot like leasehold, only the homeowners don't need the trust's permission to sell. Homeowners do, however, have restrictions on what they can build or plant on the property.
Personally, I would never buy a property that has restrictions on how you can decorate, what you can plant, what color you paint you home, etc. For the life of me, I can't see how these homeowner associations have any legal right to do so because they don't own the land. I suppose the people who develop the housing area put the restrictions of use right into the deed documentation.
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Rosemary, that's really very interesting and informative. Freehold and leasehold. Years ago one of my friends in Puerto Rico was from the UK. She had grown up in hotels because her parents managed hotels in Yorkshire. She would frequently tell how the Queen owned all the swans. I assume in the cities that most homes are freehold?
Now, let me see if I have this straight -- the village is called Edgecomb St. Mary, and that's where the shop is, the Major lives in/on the outskirts of the village. When they go into town -- they're not talking London, but a nearby town? Small town, but bigger than the village? They are all in Sussex? which is south of London. I wish I had a good map.
What a revolu. Bravo to Mrs. Ali. She can stand her own and make pointed comments along with the best of them. And Mrs. Rassool, too. A real commander there. As for Mrs Kahn, she got her come uppence. One could feel sorry for her, but not after her spiteful actions at the dance.
Oh boy, the Major. Didn't you love that line in response to Mrs Kahn's,"It's probably dementia. . . " "Oh no, Daisy is always that way." HS is a real champ at subtle humor.
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Thanks Rosemary - looks like an area of the world populated for over 1500 years developed land ownership as time changed the whose who among the gentry. In this part of the world we are not concerned with leasehold and freehold but we are concerned with owning or not what is below the earth's surface. - finding out who owns the mineral rights can be a challenge that thank goodness the Title Companies take on and then to learn if the mineral rights pass during a sale is another huge issue plus, an agent remembering to request the binder from the Title Co. to insure mineral rights - wheee - we do earn our money.
A Leasehold sounds to me more like the relationship a Condo owner has in the building - a condo owner only owns everything inside including the inside walls and the Condo Association has ownership and responsibility for the building, land and equipment - where as many Home Owner Associations allow you to opp out with limited association.
Here, the HMO's are usually tied to water and sewage - the area was developed before city water or sewage was available and so a private or municipal district was established - since the treatment of sewage requires land - [it is simply a huge septic like system] - the land set aside, is watered with treated water and becomes the neighborhood park that can even include a neighborhood swimming pool.
Many subdivisions that do not have a HMO include in the deed restrictions the kind and size of home that can be built - all, to 25% masonry - the type of roof material - the height of fences - if or not an outside washline can be installed - the kind and number of animals that are permitted per household etc.
Add to that, some HMO's not only maintain the water and sewage utilities and the park, often the front lawns of all the homeowners are maintained and a security system is installed at the entry to the subdivision. The costs are covered either as an additional HMO monthly fee or it is included and calculated in your utility bill for water and sewer. Opting out usually means your basic coverage in included in the utility bill and you do not want to utilize the park, tennis courts, pool etc.
As to those who take the legal opportunity to push control over neighbors - it usually takes a petition by a certain number of homeowners complaining before someone is asked to comply but there is always someone with too much time on their hands that has become a neighborhood curmudgeon regardless HMO or not. So there is little security Frybabe, from those who want to control how we live.
After all that it seems to me if a piece of land - Lord D's property - is being developed it would either have separate water and sewerage facilities or it may tie into the existing facilities used by the Village - and in the case of water is it from an underground aquifer or is it collected and stored in tanks - if it is from underground that could affect water rights for the Village so who knows what all is involved here developing land for housing.
Aw pedln poor Mrs Kahn she just wanted to be more than her countrymen so that she would be acceptable to the village 'Ladies.' And yes, isn't it a giggle reading all the small ironic examples of dry humor - He is a champ isn't he - I wonder if he shared his thoughts aloud with Nancy - I could see a quick smile dawning on her face at every turn when he was at home.
And Steph Roger is not an easy character to admire is he - well he may come through yet and he may still be going through a growing up period - but then back in the early part of our read I am remembering a post or two saying the pressure to have money is very high among those in his age group - I've been breathing a bit easier of late because of a two day training event I attended last month - after noticing this draconian attitude towards seniors with any lifetime accumulated wealth that is typical of the Gen Y's and the Gen X's the new group is being called the Generosity generation who are very aware of need and either give of their own assets or arrange for money earning events to make better the world, their community and individuals - They do not have this sense of entitlement for their parents lifetime accumulations - so there is hope on the horizon.
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Barbara - exactly! You described the President of the Home Owners' Association in the town in which my son just moved in NC. He's a person with "two much time on his hands" - He drives around with his clipboard and writes up those who are in violation of the associations rules. I don't think my son read all of the rules before they bought the house or they would not have bought this house!
Frybabe - "For the life of me, I can't see how these homeowner associations have any legal right to do so because they don't own the land." I guess the moral is - read what you're signing!
The first week they were there they 'were written up" for leaving the garage door open too long. The four little ones were used to going in and out of the garage all day for bikes, etc. when they lived in TN. The door must remain closed except when putting the cars in and out. That was just a warning - the next time there will be a fine.
At Christmas my son hung five Christmas balls from a tree (planted by the association) located between the sidewalk and the street. He received a letter telling him that the tree would be observed in the spring and if there was any sign of damage, he'd have to replace it.
Another time he received a letter threatening a fine if a toy was left in the front yard overnight. There is no recourse.
So what do you think - does the Major own Rose Cottage? He's sure attached to the place. This is the house where he and Bertie grew up, right? He likes nothing better than watching the sun go down over the back fence. Imagine if they start building luxury homes there, blocking his view! But legally, Lord D. seems to have the right to do that - no matter what the picketers hope to accomplish. Surely the Major has to side with them and express his feelings to Dagenham about the deal he is planning with Ferguson. But above all, he wants to fulfill his dream and show off those guns to the visiting bigwigs - and gain stature in their eyes. I thought his reaction to the model of the new town was quite subdued, didn't you? Did you understand his silence as he studied it? Why didn't he walk out of the meeting?
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So you think Roger is believable. I guess you think that Ferguson is believable too? Gum thinks they are both annoying. But are they believable? Maybe we need to learn more about them before the story is through so we can understand them and believe they are not just stereotypes - annoying stereotypes at that.
Steph doesn't understand the relationship between Roger and his father. Perhaps the Major has been hard on him. Maybe he thinks his mother spoils her only child and he wants to make a man of him.
Remember in the first chapter of the book where they visited that big toy store in London and Roger fell in love with a bike on display. In my mind the bike is red and it is shiney. I think the store must be Hamely's - three floors of just toys, toys, toys...many set up so kids can get their hands on them and try them out. I wonder if the Major and Nancy bought anything for Roger there. Somehow I doubt it. Do you remember that he didn't get the bike - but when they went home the Major gave him his old bike from when he, himself was a child - it was kept outside, wasn't it? Wrapped in a blanket?
How would a child react to kind of parenting on a regular basis? Wouldn't he conclude that his father didn't love him much? He doesn't seem to feel the love and when you don't feel lovable, you don't know how to give it in return. Maybe Roger doesn't know how his actions are hurting his father because he thinks his father doesn't care about him. Sad situation.
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Pedln, I remember in her interview, Helen S said that the two Sussex towns, "Edgecombe St. Mary and Hazelbourne-on-the-Sea are fictitious amalgamations of places I know and love." I tried to find a map, but these places were so small and Sussex so large, that we'd better start looking at the big picture first. Do you remember when Mrs. Ali's shop was first described, we were told that the villagers would take a boat to France to do their big shopping? And do you remember the description of the steep white cliffs? (Did you know those white cliffs are chalk? My son brought some home for his nieces and nephews at Christmastime.) I immediately thought these towns must be near Dover - Maybe Rosemary knows of some little beach towns in the vicinity?
It's interesting that Roger even wants a little cottage here...far from the action in London. Yet I can't believe he wants to be near his father. Can you?
(http://www.studygroup.com/isc/sussex/images/England_map1.jpg)
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Barb, regarding mineral rights. I just found out early this week that Pennsylvania does not necessarily own the mineral rights under the land it owns. Pennsylvania is pretty new at this kind of drilling on this scale and is now struggling to formulate laws and regulations regarding same.
In addition Pennsylvania, so far as I am aware, has not yet requested primacy to monitor and enforce regulations regarding underground injection programs. To gain primacy the Commonwealth must have regulations in place that are at least as stringent as the EPA. Hopefully they are working towards this goal. In the meantime, the EPA has primacy. Speaking of which, the Feds have been reviewing, and where needed, revising and strengthening their regulations regarding Underground Injection Control and the Clean Water Act. Any time well drilling activities can affect water resources that may be used for drinking, whether surface or aquifer, the operators/owners must comply with both. The drillers in the Northern Tier are recycling at least some of the water they use, having it treated and re-injecting it. Because a lot of the area is rural and has been something of a depressed area for quite a while, I do not believe they have the infrastructure in place to recycle much more than they already do. I understand that some of the used water is shipped elsewhere. I don't know how much is treated (or not) and discharged into our watershed system.
Not something in the book, I know, but it is an interest of mine.
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Ownership to what is beneath the surface is going to be more of an issue than simply Oil and Gas - usually if you own Mineral rights the language is there that you own the water beneath your land - since drilling for either oil or gas as well as, water can be done with pipes installed on an angle from another property it is easy enough to take what is useful without ever disturbing your land. In west Texas this is becoming a problem as underground water is being harvested, leaving large ranches in permanent drought conditions as the water is piped to growing cities who will pay top dollar for that water - Austin is buying now storing the water for the next 50 years when they expect the city to be large enough that our current contract with the Lower Colorado River will not supply the area with enough water.
Most folks looking at a new development only think of their house and surface land without thinking of the underground connections for utilities, the wear and tear on local roads, additional waste sites, the additional need for schools and medical facilities, police and fire-fighting equipment, manpower and know-how - on and on - it is only recently that a request for water taps and building permits in order to open a new subdivision requires an impact study that, as here in Austin area, may even include an environmental and endangered species impact study. All that before the first shovel hits the dirt. The fees, studies, planning and work to install the conduits. roads etc. is paid upfront that a developer expects to receive a profit plus costs with the sale of each lot.
Someone like Lord Dagenham may have land but that is less than half of what is required to get it developed. He needs a partner that has a team behind him regardless if it is this loud American or someone from Britain who knows how to make a land dream become reality. And yes, his village may be all built on his Estate however, it will be a major impact on the village services, utilities, roads and facilities.
Planning needs to take into consideration shopping for the new home owners - either shops are included within the Subdivision creating direct competition for the existing village shops or the village shops need to be upgraded to accommodate the numbers and interests of the new residents who build in the new Estate.
Frybabe each state has different Real Estate and Mineral Rights laws - here I know to research using a Title Co and its plant - all the plants in Austin closed a few years ago when the down-turn started - our closest plant in now in San Antonio - however, there is more and more online and I bet if you start with the County Tax Appraisal office - at least get the parcel number and then go from there - I have heard that eastern states do not make it easy for the average person to do the search - that even the transfer of property requires hiring an attorney however, there should be a way you can check to see if your title policy that you may not have looked at since the day you closed says 'fee simple' which in many states means you do own the mineral and water rights.
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Joan I have seen this kind of behavior usually by retired upper management whose only accumulated work skills for 'excellence' is to tell his neighbors how to live - ;) - I know it is not fun - the best you can say is that the area will be very safe since this guy will never allow anyone more than 100 yard access in the neighborhood without checking to see who they are. - Like any security it comes at the expense of freedom - ah so - if only there was balance -
The best I have seen in some neighborhoods where 'looks' are sacristan - your son can figure out an easy access to the garage from the backyard even if it means hiring someone to put a door at the back of the garage that opens to the side of the house and then erect a privacy fence as close as allowed to the front of the garage to keep as much of the side-yard from view - he will have to pave the area with bricks or it will be a muddy mess - but he needs to look at the limit for impervious cover before he puts down any concrete - then the children will have to invite their friends to play in their backyard.
Its like years ago and some homemakers expected a perfect front room so that no one could relax in the room - that is how some folks look at the street view of individual property - I know - they should get a life - but other than selling and moving or creating a massive uprising in the neighborhood - there it is...
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Joan P - I did not see the bike incident as the Major being horrible to Roger - quite the reverse. I thought he had carefully kept his old bike until his son was old enough to have it. When I was a very small child I had a little wooden engine that you could sit in - it had been made by an uncle of mine years before and passed down, and I really loved it.
I used to be taken to Hamleys every year around Christmas to choose one present and to see the lights in Regent Street. I don't really remember any of those presents as much as I remember that engine, and a china doll called Margaret who was also passed on from someone else.
Pedln - I am not sure about the locations in the book. The white cliffs of Dover (in Kent) are certainly famous, but I don't think that is where the book is set - it's farther west, in Sussex, I think. The place names that Simonson chooses are not typical of Kent at all. When I was at school we had to do a geography field trip to Cuckmere Haven, which I'm pretty sure is in Sussex, and were made to climb up the Seven Sisters (chalk cliffs) wearing full school uniform!
Here is a link with some pictures:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=seven+sisters&hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&prmd=ivnsm&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=73iyTcCrBI7B8QOM07yVDA&ved=0CEsQsAQ&biw=1268&bih=607
The only place in Sussex that I think you can get a ferry to France from is Newhaven - there is, or used to be, a line from there to Dieppe.
Edgecombe St Mary sounds to me more like a Devonshire name, but I think the whole book is set in Sussex, a county that I do not know very well (that walk must have put me off!).
Rosemary
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What a thoughtful thing Joan for your son to bring some rock from Britain back in the valuable space in a suitcase as gifts for everyone.
Wonderful photos Rosemary - thanks for finding and sharing them - while looking all I could think of was
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj6OPxA2E9U&feature=related
And then I found a bit of smooth Jim Reeves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s05QjEvU_kQ&feature=related
I also remember my two wheeler which belonged to my mother's cousin, who I admired so and felt special having her bike - my father painted it blue and the rear frame even had holes for me to lace string so my skirt would not get caught in the back wheel - at the time my sister received a new 'store bought' bike but I always thought I was special because I had one that was from family - anything 'store bought' was not highly thought of regardless a toy, furniture, clothing or foods - family made, grown, preserved, baked, sewn, knitted had more caché
My take on the Major remembering the bike scene when Roger was young is that in the Major's memory no one during his youth probably ever asked for anything they saw in the window of a store or advertised in the paper - not only did he keep his bike in the best condition to be able to pass it on to his son but the idea of his child asking for something just because he saw it in a store window and then, Nancy actually giving attention to this request was probably mind boggling, beyond anything he could imagine till it happened. Interesting how we can all read something a bit different in each scene.
Does anyone else remember their first bike and how they received the bike or anything about it?
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Barb - I was not allowed to have a bike because my father was so obsessive about danger he thought I would be killed - this in 1960s suburban London, when there was no chance of my even cycling on the road - we had a long path at the back of our house that children used. In the end I acquired a rusty old thing with no brakes and flat rotten tyres - I can't recall where I got it from but I taught myself to ride it on that same path.
After my father's death when I was 8, I saved up my pocket money and bought a second hand bike for £8. I then rode it all over Bromley (where we lived) - but of course there was less traffic then. Later on I bought a new Coventry Eagle and rode it all over the Kent countryside, and later in Cambridge, where it was easy as there were so many cyclists. I vividly recall riding out one sunny Sunday morning to the American cemetery at Madingley:
http://www.madingleyamericancemetery.info/graves.htm
and seeing all the white crosses and Jewish stars, with only the birds for company.
Nowadays I don't think I would have the nerve to cycle on the road anywhere, although Edinburgh abounds with bikes, including ones towing little carts for toddlers to sit in.
Rosemary
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I grew up in the country.. Never learned to ride a bike until I was married with children and lived in a community that everyone rode their bikes everywhere. I had a pony and then a horse later and all sorts of animals, so never actually missed the bikes.
I think the Major was the sort of father who simply could not understand his son being different than he was. You see a lot of fathers like that. He is just now beginning to understand how Roger can be different and still be a good person ( well, not that good, but trying)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
April 16 - 24 ~ Chapters 13-17
April 25 - April 30 ~ Chapters 18-25
May 1-May 3 ~ Epilogue, Final Impressions, Visit with the Author
*****
For Consideration
April 25-April 30 ~ Chapters 18-25
1. Has there been much change in the village in the aftermath of the ball brawl? Do you think the changes in the Ali's shop will affect the business?
2. Why does Abdul Wahid cold shoulder the Major? Does he hold him responsible for what happened? Does Abdul's appreciation for the Major's hospitality seem contrived to you?
3. Can you believe the Vicar's words of consolation to the Major on the loss of his lady friend? Do you think 'theological incompatibility' reflects current Church attitudes? Do you think the Major is experiencing a crisis in faith or, is he simply at odds with Christopher's brand of Christianity?
4. Would the Major and Grace make a good team for life? Does Grace really share the Major's outrage and disappointment over Jasmina's departure?
5. Were you surprised at Grace's refusal to the Major's offer? Does she bring to mind one of Barbara Pym's ladies?
"Without passion people living together may be lonelier than if they lived alone." Do you agree with the viewpoint that passion is a necessary ingredient for marriage at their age?
6. Though distraught, is there any indication that Roger has changed? What did you think of the Major's attempt to explain love to his son? Did he understand what his father was trying to tell him?
7. Is it obvious why the Ali family wants to keep Jasmina with them? What greater good did Mrs. Ali try to accomplish by giving up the shop?
8. Sandy: “A cottage in the country is a dangerous dream.” Mrs. Ali: " I allowed myself to daydream." Do both women share the same dreams wrapped in a cottage? Is the Major's admiration for Sandy decision to leave and get on with life similar to his request of Mrs. Ali to show her courage to leave?
9. "Let's just drive right off the map.” Does the story take on a fairy tale aspect at this point? Is it madness, or can it possibly work?
10. How does the stress of living with one foot in modernity and one foot in the traditions of an ancient culture affect Abdul Wahid? Why could Amina, from the same traditions, choose to live out her passion for dance rather than marry to cover shame, whereas Abdul Wahid turned to the tradition of haram to escape from his shame?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson, Part 1 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html);
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118); The India-Pakistan Partition (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/indo-pak-partition2.htm)
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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See how great these discussions are! All along I was picturing the white cliffs of Dover - thinking Dover was in Sussex. Rosemary, I didn't know those steep chalky cliffs were so extensive. Can't you just imagine a young boy playing ball near the edge of such a cliff? The mother of four boys cringes at the thought - knowing how focused on the ball they get when playing a game....
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS58SyttoTpMSBTz8mDxcqZ5G-_djDx3LE2v-52bgDucORMLM3YKg)
They really are chalk! My son brought home chunks of it for each of his nieces and nephews - and printed out a picture of the white cliffs to explain where he got it. Someday they will remember that if/when they see these cliffs themselves.
Rosemary, I looked up the Newhaven - Dieppe ferry line. It is still operating. (and of course, it is in Sussex as you say - Can imagine the villagers making a day of it, taking the ferry, shopping in Normandy (and having lunch there!!) and then walking home with string bags full - right by Mrs. Ali's shop...
(http://www.ldlines.co.uk/datas/images-v2/uk_carte.jpg)
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Steph - my dream - every birthday that's all I ever asked for - a horse! Lucky you! (Did you ever wish for a bike instead? :D) I believe you are spot on - "the Major was the sort of father who simply could not understand his son being different than he was." The Major would have valued his own father's bike...just as many of you would consider it an honor to receive a bike from an older sibling or cousin. But Roger is an only child. Most of his stuff is new - no hand-me-down clothes for him - or toys - his were all shiney new. I just reread that scene in the toy store. Eight year old "Roger tried to impress upon them the enormous importance of the bike and the necessity for purchasing it at once." Isn't this the same Roger that we are talking about now?
Is the Major beginning to understand him a bit better when "he wonders whether it was possible he had been too strict wiht Roger as a child and thereby inspired his son to such excesses." If he keeps thinking along these lines, maybe there is hope for some sort of understanding between these two before the book is over. Funny how we have begun to talk about these characters as if they really exist!
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9. What was the cause of Mr. Rasool's outburst that led to the bruhaha abruptly ending the entertainment?
10.. What stopped the Major from running down the driveway to take Mrs. Ali home?
Can we focus a little on these two questions that conclude the scene at the ball? Monday, we'lll begin to discuss the aftermath and the book's conclusion...
What sort of memories are triggered by the performance - on the train. The British are leaving India. What is Colonel Pettigrew doing on this train? Is he there to save the Maharajah's daughter - are her kidnappers Pakistanis?
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Question 10.....10.. What stopped the Major from running down the driveway to take Mrs. Ali home?
I think it was his pride. He was embarrassed about everything that happened, during the melee.
9. What was the cause of Mr. Rasool's outburst that led to the bruhaha abruptly ending the entertainment
I think he was embarrassed, and angry, over the way the Brits were portrad in the incident on the train. The Brits were shown to be so superior to the Pakistanis.
2. How do you score on first impressions? Has your first impression of Sandy changed? Perhaps she herself has changed? Do you see a future for Sandy and Roger?
Yes , my impression of Sanday is changing. I am begining to wonder how the Roger/Sandy sittuation will play out.
Sheila
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From Chapter 11, "(The Major said) 'My father served at Partition. That's the end of the English in India.'"
Link to an article on The India-Pakistan Partition (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/indo-pak-partition2.htm) Note the first sentence in the second paragraph.
During Mr. Rassol's outburst, "(Mrs. Rasool Jr. said), 'My father-in-law is only a little confused. His own mother and sister died on such a train.'"
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Oh, Callie! I forgot that! No wonder Mr. Rasool lost it! Were the British responsible for their deaths - or was he upset because the British were treating it lightly. (I can't get that link to Partition to work.)
Sheila, I can't decide if Sandy is changing as she lives in the cottage in Sussex - or if we're just learning more about the real Sandy, who was there all along.
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Joan, I found another article and changed the link.
As well as bringing back horrible memories, I think he saw the entire performance as an insulting parody of his culture.
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From the article Callie brought us - no wonder the Rasools lost it when watching the silly British skit. Do you think he held the British responsible for leaving the Partition to chance - and chaos?
"The death toll of this terrible episode remains very much contested. Hundreds of thousands of people died, as Hindus and Sikhs fled to India, Muslims to Pakistan, and many others were caught up in a chaotic transition. A consensus figure of 500,000 is often used, but the sources closer to the truth give figures that range between 200,000 and 360,000 dead. By other estimates, Partition resulted in as many as 1.5 million deaths. The word genocide did not come to the minds of observers at the time, though there were genocidal aspects to what finally developed."
"Ethnic cleansing" was another term used to describe the whole affair. Thanks, Callie. Just the information we needed. Do you think Helen Simonson assumed that we all knew about this horrible episode and that we would understand why Mr. Rasool couldn't sit through the "entertainment"? Wait, maybe I'm the only one who was ignorant of the facts...
I'm going to put that link in the heading, Callie.
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I knew about the train robberies and massacres, but I didn't know how extensive it was. My book is downstairs, but did it mention if there were sound effects with the skit? If so, that would certainly have triggered memories or flashbacks in old Mr. Rasool even after all these years. I believe the book said he was six at the time. I am not sure Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome ever goes away, but fades a little over time unless there is a trigger event.
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JoanP - re the Newhaven ferry - yes, until recently there were numerous day trips, otherwise known as "booze cruises", that people went on to stock up in the hypermarkets at the French ports. The Eurostar train service has also made it extremely easy for people living in London and SE England to zip across to France and back in a day - my mother and her friends have done it. I think the shopping trips have fallen off a bit as prices have increased.
Why does the Major not follow Mrs Ali? I think it's just his essential Britishness and reserve. My Canadian friend is forever asking me why I did not do or say something (usually why did I not complain about something) - I say, Dorothy, I just can't, and she replies "Oh you British!".
Do you remember the train massacre scene in The Raj Quartet? I don't think I will ever forget that. From this vantage point we feel the British caused everything, but my mother's generation would probably say that it would have happened anyway, citing what has happened in S Africa and other African countries. But even when bad things appear to arise between native people, one wonders if the cause is years and years of colonial interference (whether British, French, Belgian, Italian or whatever).
Rosemary
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EASTER
by Joyce Kilmer
The air is like a butterfly
With frail blue wings.
The happy earth looks at the sky
And sings.
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Barb - that is just what is happening here in Edinburgh this morning - I am standing in the kitchen looking out over the gardens to the Fife hills beyond, the sun is shining and all the birds are singing their hearts out.
Happy Easter everyone!
Rosemary
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Lovely - thanks for sharing the view from your window...
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Happy Easter.. Sun is not up here.
I remember reading about the partition and the horrors involved. I would guess my query would be why the Rasools brought the older couple. They knew what the theme of the dance was..
When you look at the problems in all of the countries that were posessions, there is a pattern.. Differences of religon or tribes brought on great terror and murder. Africa is still so trible and the Congo has not been in peace for so many years. Indian and Pakistan still have skirmishes over the border.. There is simply no way to please all..
The Major,, yes I think it was the famous English reserves working. At least he seems to know that he is not reacting well.
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Steph, my guess would be that the older Rassools insisted on coming, that they considered themselves part of the business and felt it was their place to be there.
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I agree with pedlin about the reason the older Rasools came to the dance.
However, if you remember, when Grace, Mrs. Ali and the Major met with the Rasools about the dance, the entertainment was to be traditional folk dancing.
It was later on when Daisy told the Major that the entertainment had been changed to "three or four scenes" depicting the story of the Major's father.
So the Rasools probably had no idea what they were going to see. What a shock it must have been.
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Callie, how do you remember so much!? Now I remember too - the plans changed AFTER the little tasting party with the Rasools present. Traditional folk dancing and the Rasools' menu should have been harmless enough. Does anyone remember when the plan changed to the dramatization and the focus on Colonel Pettigrew's rescue of the Maharajah's daughter. Whose idea was it to present the award to the Major? I'm going to bet that Ferguson was involved in some way. Ferguson and Dagenham want to butter up the Major because they know the success of redevelopment of the village rests on his getting the
Rosemary, Steph, I think the reason the Major turned back, leaving Mrs. Ali to get home without him, was more than the famous British reserve. Didn't he suddenly remember that his Churchills were inside, used for the entertainment? Isn't that the real reason he went back - to retrieve them?
I hope you all had a lovely Easter Sunday.
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Joan, I'm always fascinated by how an author leads a plot or sub-plot along so I usually remember that "something" had happened earlier in a story. However, I have to go back and look up the details.
Does anyone remember when the plan changed to the dramatization and the focus on Colonel Pettigrew's rescue of the Maharajah's daughter. Whose idea was it to present the award to the Major?
I don't want to be the only one who answers these questions. :)
Go back to Chapter 11. If you have the hardback, look at page 152. I did not remember these details and was quite surprised to find who planted the idea in the minds of the committee.
I wonder what that person's motive might have been?
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Yes, Callie and I think when we discuss the next few chapters we will have an explanation for Daisy that has been running around in our minds - the phrase that to me is telling is - "how we gave India and Pakistan their Independence" which puts Mrs. Ali in her place. Although Grace is a part of this I think she is looking more at trying to see and show the side of the Major and his father that would make her feel proud in order to fan her crush on him. Sure does look like the plans were changed big time after the meeting that included the Rasools to arrange the food and decorations.
Callie it may have been a full day for some of our readers since they probably had family for Easter or some sort of specialness to the day. When they join us again the new questions will be up with the last chapters of the book included in our conversation and we will see a fuller account of Daisy as well as Grace.
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Barb, sorry - didn't mean to sound tacky. :-[ Probably the teacher in me coming out. I'll go sit in a corner 'til I can behave. ;) :D
I hope everyone has had a lovely Easter Day. My family were all here yesterday; they live in the OKC area but it's the first time we've all been together in one place at the same time since Christmas. After church today, I went to the home of a friend for lunch.
For the first time in almost two months, I can say, "It's raining in Oklahoma City." Hooray! I hope this severe drought has finally broken.
Looking forward to our final week.
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Golly I sure hope the front bringing rain holds together till it reaches us - there is rain again in the forecast for tomorrow and Tuesday but we have had promises and promises since last October with maybe a very light 5 minute drizzle here and there - we need significant rain - bucket loads of significant rain - hope it will happen and you having rain brings hope.
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Central Florida is in the middle of a severe shortage of rain. We have been promised for two weeksn and gotten nothing.
Daisy is a troublemaker. She also wants the Major to be Graces. That would keep he and Gracie under her supervision..
I rechecked and the Major just seems torn at the end of the chapter.
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Poured with rain all Saturday up here! Rushed in and out of houses with house schedules on my head! If only we could direct it where it's needed...
Rosemary
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"Mrs. Ali has left the village."
And life in the village goes on pretty much as before... Christmas preparations make everyone forget about the brawl, even the real estate deal that threatens the serene little village. Didn't you wonder where Helen S. was going to take us from here?
Don't you love the way Helen S. kept us in suspense right up to these final chapters? Sheila says she's begining to wonder how the Roger/Sandy sittuation will play out. But we don't know how about any of it will play out until the end - for any of the characters. If it wasn't for that coat rack on the bookcover, I was prepared to believe that the Major would finally realize Grace's fine qualities. I loved Grace!
Good morning, Steph!
Daisy IS a troublemaker - she's into everyone's business, isn't she? Does that come with being the Vicar's wife? She probably knows the intimate details about most of his congregation. She seems as full of advice as he is! I'm not sure I could live in this little village, as idyllic as it may seem.
The question is still on the table - why did Daisy and the ladies of the congregation decide to change the theme of the dance from the Mughal Empire, costumes and folk dancing - to the performance focusing on the horrible events of the 1947 Partition in India? Can't believe that it was Daisy's idea.
The decision changed the whole dynamic of the ball - of the entire story, didn't it? Callie has noted the answer lies in Chapter 11 - page 152 to be exact. It's fortunate (and rare) that the hardcover and paperback page numbers correspond.
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If I remember it correctly, someone (the Major?) told the bunch that the Mogul Empire and the Partition did not exist in the same time period. Therefore, the festivities would not have been historically accurate.
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Don't you just love the Major's quips when he visits Sandy and eyes the "Christmas in Hades" tree that Roger "considered very chic" and that Sandy explains "it cost a fortune" and it will be "out of fashion by next year" - however, she agrees "it's hideous." and the Major follows up with "Perhaps you can rent it out in the spring to clean chimneys." - Than he remarks on the sparseness of the decor with "The floors look very clean."
I would love to know the Major and have him a part of a small group conversation - I do not get the impression he is the life of the party but he sure knows how to dead pan a zinger at every turn.
"A cottage in the country is always a dangerous dream..." - wow - you can read all sorts of things in that statement - not just for Sandy but I think of my own 'cottage-in-the-country dreams' - sort of an agrarian utopia.
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Yep - the Major sure has a quip for every occasion and they break me up too but I think for him it's just a natural and unconscious or subconscious reaction to the situation.
My cottage in the country dream is a cottage on the beach at a town on our southwest coast which is in easy reach of my favourite forests - I'd like to move between my city home and that beach about every six weeks - best of both worlds. Dream on...
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Oh yes - mine always centres around a thatched cottage on an English village green. Just now reading Louise Penney, and the Quebec village she describes sounds similar. Of course I always imagine everyone (inc me) having lived there all their lives and knowing everyone, all of us being frightfully artistic and homely and never a cross word.
As you say, dream on :D
Rosemary
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Mrs. Ali seems to have overreacted to what happened. Gracie is nice and the Major tries, but he has already lost his heart and simply must deal with it.. I love the way the book merges so many themes all at once and you realize where she was going and how she did it.. Amazing..She ties all of the themes and some of them work quite differently than you imagine.. A glorious ending..
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ahh Rosemary an English Village - sounds like a village much as Helen Simonson has depicted - although your village does not sound like the country club is the center of society.
Gumtree your 'cottage-in-the-country' is a Beach house near a forest - sounds like best of both worlds - I remember thinking of living in a Forest till I remembered the rain that makes the forest green - but a Beach House would be where you could put up your feet with the wind coming in with the waves - so you could only dip back into the Forest when the days invite the ramble.
I cannot figure out where to locate my 'cottage-in-the-country' - I've it all planned out with every piece of furniture, pot and pan and gardens - but location - now that is 'the' issues - that is when practical things come to play - my 'cottage-in-the-country' is planned for a piece of land that is 90 feet by 150 feet - much larger than the average in-town lot that may be 70 wide but more likely 60 and depth could be 150 but more likely 114 to maybe 140. Than outside of town there are problems of utilities and few neighbors - The ideal would be a few acres but then I am not about to take on the maintenance of so much land alone at this stage in my life - so the practical enters the dream and I am right in Sandy's shoes.
What do we do with those dreams - now there is a story - like a what happens to various characters after they are dropped from the story or the story has them living happily-ever-after. Sandy couldn't go forward and be unhappy for the rest of her life - I do not see her as a person who would settle - and so after realizing the cottage dream was dangerous [which I take to mean she was giving up too much of her self and her fought for success] how did she choose to get back to her success making life and create a new dream - I cannot imagine she lived her whole life with a thwarted dream.
Hmm question for Helen when she returns - had she thought of a book telling us what happens to Sandy when she returns to her success making New York life after realizing the cottage was a dangerous dream.
Steph, yes, all the loose ends on all the threads or knotted and tied aren't they - How did you see Mrs. Ali overreacting to what happened - I was not sure if you meant what happened at the dance or what happened with the old Aunt and Abdul or what happened when she was in the house with her family - she seemed to have several instances when things happened - tell us what you were thinking and what you thought was her overreacting - please...
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When you first read about the old Aunt could you ever imagine her history - her entire contribution to the story was all in this last quarter of the book - she is introduced to us in the store after the dance when Mrs. Ali is no longer in the village - Did you think the redecorating of the store reflected the old Aunt, Abdul or Amina?
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Gum, I got a kick out of the Major's dry comments too. Wasn't it Ferguson and also his aide who kept commenting on his sense of humor?
What's so funny is that the Major doesn't seem to think they are funny.
"Mrs. Ali seems to have overreacted to what happened." Steph
The cool, calm, voice of reason, Mrs. Ali - seems to have overreacted! I thought she could withstand just about anything - always so accommodating. Until we hear from Steph as to what she meant with this observation, I'm going to make a guess. She felt as if she belonged on that dance floor, with the Major at her side - didn't the two of them dance up a storm? Can't you see the other dancers standing back and admiring them? The Major was so proud of her. And then, following the melee, all of the Pakistanis were shown to the door - they were, weren't they? Did the Major continue to be her escort for the evening. ? No, he didn't. He stayed inside and let her find her own way home.
Does anyone agree that the reason the Major went back inside the club was to retrieve his Churchills? Do you blame him? What would have become of them if he left them inside? Would Roger have sold them to Ferguson? We aren't told that, but we do know that the Major was more concerned about those guns - which represented his importance in this society. More concerned than he was about Mrs. Ali.
Is this why she left town? She realizes that she will never be part of the Major's circle, his life after what has happened. Could she have remained in the shop working along side her nephew and Amina?
Does anyone know whether movie rights have been sold for this book? There are so many scenes that would translate to film, weren't there? - the duck hunt, the ball, the rescue from the brother-in-law's home, the fishing cabin in the woods, the scene on white cliffs with Abdul Wahid and the Major...
Barbara...a sequel? A good question for Helen Simonson. Our Sheila's question about her next book is still on the table.
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I don't know about a full blown movie, JoanP, but a made for TV type mini-series. I can see it now. What a riot. It is something I would like to savor over a few weeks.
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Oh yes, a series - on PBS maybe...
Frybabe - that escape scene from the brother-in-law's house...did it remind you of the escape from the Church in The Graduate? The vows have been exchanged, he's too late to stop it. He's up in the choir loft pounding on the glass..."Elaaaaine" ... She turns, sees him - and runs from the church, the two of them in a glorious escape as they jump on a bus, she in her wedding gown...and presumably live happily ever after... :D I loved it that scene. Had the same feeling when reading of the Major and Mrs. Ali - driving off the map...
Callie found out who it was who changed the focus of the evening's entertainment from the Mughal Empire in India in the 1700's to Colonel Pettigrew, the Major's father - and the bloody Partition of 1947. Had anyone remembered it was GRACE, who reminded the ladies of the story of the Major's father and his service to the Maharajah. It was at this point they decided to present the story in four scenes. When the Major protested, Daisy responded that it was all the same thing. "It's all India, isn't it?"
Why would Grace do this? I loved Grace. She is so well portrayed by Helen S. Maybe one of her strongest characters. I still believe that the Major would have been quite happy with Grace - even without the "passion." ;)
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Barbara, how long between the dance and the time the Major went into the shop for the first time? It didn't take long to change the ambiance of the shop. That's a good question. Who is responsible for the cheap Christmas decorations, the beer ads...the Americanization of the shop? It doesn't sound as if Abdul Wahid or his auntie who speaks not a word of English would have been behind it. Amina?
How can a shop like this survive - especially if the plan to convert the village into an upscale location?
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Well he was in bed for three days with a cold after the dance so that he walked into the tinsel storm that passed for Christmas on his way to the shop where "Christmas decorations helped obliterate any trace of Mrs. Ali. A forest of foil dangily things...none of Mrs. Ali's handmade samosas next the packaged meat pies in the cold case...the modest, hand-wrapped gifts baskets,...replaced by large cheap commercial baskets..." the only indication we have of the choice towards as the Major says, "excess...commercial imperative." is that Abdul blushes.
He was certainly getting rid of all reminders of Mrs. Ali and making the store his own. I do not think he had any realization that he would need to change to meet the needs of the new planned village any more than he saw himself meeting the needs of the current villagers. He was who he was and sold what he could easily get from vendors.
So we have to conclude it was either Abdul or the old Aunt or Amina who redecorated...I wonder who made the choices. Maybe it just happened because Abdul was attempting to please all his suppliers or, maybe he saw the need for decoration and Amina made the choices - I just wonder about the old Aunt at this point - would she have had a hand in the re-decorating of the store - she is just from Pakistan and probably has no clue about Christmas but then maybe her taste is similar to the bright colors and sparkle of the available Christmas decoration.
P.S. I think they survive like so many ethnic small convenience stores - because they are open at all hours and on the days when other establishments are closed and often if there is something like lottery tickets they will sell those where other stores do not get into that trade.
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Chapter 18 opens with the Major laying in bed for three days with a "full-blown cold" as predicted by Mrs. Ali in the closing paragraph of Chapter 17. "By the time he was well enough to walk down to the village (a week later, maybe?), it was too late."
Wouldn't this have been enough time to redo the shop?
I think the characters are all beginning to "show their true colors" in this last section.
Up until now, Grace has been a "go along to get along" type of person who has allowed the Village Ladies to push her this way and that.
I wanted to cheer when she rejected the Major's patronizing efforts to, as he puts it at the beginning of Chapter 20, "succumb to the inevitability of Grace". Inevitability ?!?!? What a horrid basis for a relationship!
Good for her to firmly state that she will "refuse to play the dried rose and accept that life must be tepid and sensible" or "make any compromises with the rest of my life." I think that's exactly what her life with the Major would have been - tepid, sensible and compromising.
I'd bet that she won't be so willing to "go along to get along" with the Village Ladies from now on, either.
Edit: Oops. Sorry, Barb for echoing your post about the shop. You slipped in while I was typing :)
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Well we agree - you gave him a few days to get back on his feet ;) and I bet your timing is more like what happened. - Really when you think of it - it only takes a few hours to strip a store of what is no longer being featured and then a couple more hours to decorate with the 'new'...
Hahaha :-* "inevitable" yep, Grace was not going to be Mrs. inevitable :D
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I was disappointed in the Major for not going after Mrs. Ali. However, I don't think it was entirely because of the guns. I felt that he, at that moment, was divided between two worlds. He chose the one that was traditional and more comfortable for him. He was disappointed in himself for not pursuing Mrs. Ali and even states that he wished he could be a different man.
What a great book this was!
Sally
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
April 16 - 24 ~ Chapters 13-17
April 25 - April 30 ~ Chapters 18-25
May 1-May 3 ~ Epilogue, Final Impressions, Visit with the Author
*****
For Consideration
April 25-April 30 ~ Chapters 18-25
1. Has there been much change in the village in the aftermath of the ball brawl? Do you think the changes in the Ali's shop will affect the business?
2. Why does Abdul Wahid cold shoulder the Major? Does he hold him responsible for what happened? Does Abdul Wahid's appreciation for the Major's hospitality seem contrived to you?
3. Can you believe the Vicar's words of consolation to the Major on the loss of his lady friend? Do you think 'theological incompatibility' reflects current Church attitudes? Do you think the Major is experiencing a crisis in faith or, is he simply at odds with Christopher's brand of Christianity?
4. Would the Major and Grace make a good team for life? Does Grace really share the Major's outrage and disappointment over Jasmina's departure?
5. Were you surprised at Grace's refusal to the Major's offer? Does she bring to mind one of Barbara Pym's ladies?
"Without passion people living together may be lonelier than if they lived alone." Do you agree with the viewpoint that passion is a necessary ingredient for marriage at their age?
6. Though distraught, is there any indication that Roger has changed? What did you think of the Major's attempt to explain love to his son? Did he understand what his father was trying to tell him?
7. Is it obvious why the Ali family wants to keep Jasmina with them? What greater good did Mrs. Ali try to accomplish by giving up the shop?
8. Sandy: “A cottage in the country is a dangerous dream.” Mrs. Ali: " I allowed myself to daydream." Do both women share the same dreams wrapped in a cottage? Is the Major's admiration for Sandy decision to leave and get on with life similar to his request of Mrs. Ali to show her courage to leave?
9. "Let's just drive right off the map.” Does the story take on a fairy tale aspect at this point? Is it madness, or can it possibly work?
10. How does the stress of living with one foot in modernity and one foot in the traditions of an ancient culture affect Abdul Wahid? Why could Amina, from the same traditions, choose to live out her passion for dance rather than marry to cover shame, whereas Abdul Wahid turned to the tradition of haram to escape from his shame?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson, Part 1 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html);
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118); The India-Pakistan Partition (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/indo-pak-partition2.htm)
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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I guess I felt that Mrs. Ali did not give the Major time to react. She knew him by now.. She realized that he is slow to realize change.. I felt sorry for both of them. Ah.. later, I love the escape scene.. At last they are both realizing that their fate is each other. Thank heaven..
Sandy,,oh Sandy, she is quite american in her outlook and I felt sorry for her. She did so hope for love and instead got a man who just could not cope with love and reality.
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I love the idea of "driving off the map". The first year of my husband's retirement, we decided to take a road trip. No time frame and no particular destination. We decided to head west and just go where the road took us. We were gone almost a month and it was one of the best vacations we ever took. We just took our time--spending several days in one place and zipping through others. Fun!!
Sally
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I think Mrs. Ali and Grace both knew the Major very well. If Grace (or someone) hadn't made the suggestion, I doubt that he would ever have gone after Mrs. Ali. In his own way, he is also a "go along to get along" sort of person and I suspect Nancy was the "pusher" during his first marriage.
I also suspect Mrs. Ali will play the same role in their marriage.
That's the only flaw that mars the Happy Ending for me. I know from experience that it can be exhausting and tiresome to live with someone who is always pessimistic about doing something new and having an "adventure"...
...like yours, Sally. What fun!
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The last section of the book was my favorite. Everything comes together. I couldn’t imagine what was going to happen after Mrs. Ali left the village. Plenty!
One thing I noticed in this last section was how Roger’s and the Major’s lives began to run in parallel.
“Don’t you think it’s unconscionably soon to be pursuing another woman?” asked the Major. “Sandy only just left.”
“She made her choice,” said Roger. The Major recognized, with a rueful smile, that his son’s words sounded familiar. (pg 294)
Neither man seemed ready to fight for his woman.
“It really won’t do, Roger,” said the Major. “If you don’t feel any real spark of passion for Gertrude, don’t shackle yourselves together. You’ll only be dooming both of you to a life of loneliness.” He smiled wryly to hear himself repeating Grace’s words as his own. (pg. 297)
Both men have opportunities with local, “right choice,” same-background kind of women. It didn’t work out for either man, with Grace or Gertrude.
I wonder if the Major saw himself in his son, and then was able to more objectively look at his own situation. I think so.
I also wonder if the author intended/planned to have the lives of father and son parallel like this or if it “just happened.” I know authors often talk about characters taking on lives of their own, doing unexpected things, etc. I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was.
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Sally said, “I was disappointed in the Major for not going after Mrs. Ali. However, I don't think it was entirely because of the guns. I felt that he, at that moment, was divided between two worlds. He chose the one that was traditional and more comfortable for him. He was disappointed in himself for not pursuing Mrs. Ali and even states that he wished he could be a different man.”
On page 341, the Major reflects on his feelings that night, talking with Abdul Wahid, while Abdul Wahid contemplates ending his own life:
“I was more proud of these guns than I was of your aunt Jasmina. For the sake of these guns, I let down the woman I love in front of a whole community of people, most of whom I can barely tolerate. I let her leave, and I will never get rid of the sense of shame.”
“I let her leave so that I could acquire all her worldly possessions,” said Abdul Wahid quietly.
Wow! Poor Jasmina! Let down by two men in her life for selfish reasons.
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Laura, I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was.
Great question for Helen Simonson. I hope she'll comment.
I missed the comment by Abdul Wahid about his aunt. Poor Jasmina, indeed.
She's always so willing to make things better for people she loves - even when doing so diminishes the quality of her own life. Does she see it that way?
Does Sandy represent the opposite - determined to have equal say-so or nothing at all?
Does Grace represent the "middle" - wanting to have a life that suits her but bound by tradition to think/act otherwise?
Are any of these characters stereotypes of the way women "ought to be"? Is it a generational thing? A "non-urban" thing?
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Thanks for that info, Laura. I had forgotten that conversation. The book I had was a library copy that had to be returned, so I did not get a chance to double check my info.
Sally
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Steph, you hit a hot button with the escape scene - several of us enjoyed that image of headlong freedom that comes with taking life by the hand and just going with it. And thanks for clearing up the views you shared on the Major and Mrs. Ali - he is trying but as you say it takes him awhile. I know that feeling - trying to move with the new while your shirt tail is still tied to the past.
Sally you and your husband did take life by the hand and just go - what a wonderful memory.
Callie yes, you are right - I forgot about that - it was Grace who urged the Major to take his feelings more seriously - he was smitten and did not know what it was he was feeling or, if he did, he did not act on his feelings.
Laura - great observations and I am so glad as well you found and printed out the dialogue between the Major and Abdul about disappointing Mrs. Ali - I remembered the Major's thoughts but completely forgot that Abdul owned up to his taking Mrs. Ali's generosity so lightly. All her worldly possessions - wow - that is selfless - which means giving up all independence regardless of ethnicity.
After finally seeing the movie "Water" last night about widows in India and although, Pakistani there are similarities in the culture which suggests the role of Mrs. Ali in her family's house had to be robbing her of any dignity. That is a huge gift - not just her worldly goods but her independence and dignity. Wow...and as you ask - Did she see it that way...Did she realize the full ramifications when she made such a gift...She certainly had a passion to make the lives of those she loved better using what ever means at her disposal.
Callie yes, it looks like another good question for Helen Simonson when she comes back for her visit.
Sally were you on the library waiting list for this book? I wonder if it is being read as much as I think it should be - I am so impressed - I am glad I have a copy - I may never read it again since I have only re-read a couple of books in my life but having it on my shelf is a reminder of what I learned while reading a book and slips of paper between the pages direct me to important bits when I need a refresher.
What did y'all think about the exchange with the Vicar first as the Vicar explains Daisy's, his wife's behavior and then his opinion about the mixed religious background of couples he marries topping it off with his opinion of the Pakistani family in his village... Did he miss a beat representing the extreme conservative views - does his view really represent the attitude of the Christian Church today?
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To me - probably the most telling thing in the Vicar's conversation with the Major is the Vicar saying, "People don't speak of it directly, but you know these things are difficult in a small community like ours."
The same could be said of a neighborhood - or a club - or a church - or a sorority - or any other tightly knit group into which someone "different" appears or is introduced. The saddest thing is that the "different" person usually figures out what's going on - and is helpless to combat it because any attempt will be vigorously denied and the "different" person will be made to look like the one who's being tacky. (Can you tell this is a BIG pet peeve of mine??)
Loved the Major's closing comment about falling asleep during the Vicar's sermons. "I thought your honesty deserved reciprocation." ZING!!!!!
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That was a zinger from the Major to the Vicar, Callie. But I remember being surprised when I read of their conversation - the Major intends to continue to come to this Church and listen to the sermons, knowing this is how his spritual advisor feels about someone very near and dear to him. No place in heaven for the couple, not adjacent resting places in the cemetery!
What of the Major and his Jasmina? Can they return to the village? Will the Major bring her to his club...or to his church? Is there room for her in his life? Or is their time in the cabin in the woods all there can ever be for them?
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Am scooping up the questions you've been posting for the author and will bring them back here for you to look over - to be sure I didn't miss any. Of course you can still ask more questions. Helen S. is still out of the country and we haven't set up a date and time for her return visit yet. We'll keep the discussion open into the first week of May...or as long as it takes. On May 5 she is scheduled for a reading and book signing right here in Arlington - I intend to speak to her then and get my book signed. I'm there!
Willl be right back...
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Joan, I would have liked one more page in the book reading "And they lived happily ever after." :)
Major tornado in Birmingham AL this evening. I hope our Joan Grimes is alright.
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Oh dear I am so disappointed I have not been more active in this discussion. It seems time has been passing me by so quickly, I am trying desperately to finish the book on time. I am up to the point where the Major plans to stop in and visit Mrs. Ali when he goes to Scotland. I feel so sad reading how everything seems to have gone downhill since the annual dance. What a hullabaloo that was.
Grace truly has grace letting the Major go and insisting he find Mrs. Ali. I just wanted to cry as he left her house. I never saw the Major and Grace as a couple early on. I felt he and Mrs. Ali were perfect for each other. So will the two of them end up happily ever after?
Wow I was shocked at Sandy being more committed than Roger. The two of them seem to be typical of this generation. I fear materialistic possessions and career success seems to be the brass ring this generation is chasing more so than family and commitment. I also feel sad about the direction the future of Edgecombe St. Mary is going in. I have so loved the warmth and small underdeveloped town and imagining the modernization about to come seems a bit sad. H.S. seems to be up with the times in bringing these changes to this quaint little town. I visit my small rural hometown after being away for many years and I barely recognize it. So much of the small town feeling is gone and all the shops and restaurants have taken up every inch of rural space that was available.
Okay, my apologies for not being present more and I hope to finish the book and join in to discuss the final chapters.
Ciao for now~
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Bella, I envy you the experience of reading the final chapters of the book for the first time. THe last thing we want to do is spoil that for you by giving things away. So please, curl up with your book and come back only when you have read the last chapter. We look forward to your reaction when you return.
I've tried to gather the questions that you have suggested we ask the author. If you want to add something to this list, please post here - OR if there is something you see on the list that you meant for discussion here and not for the author, please state that here.
Here they are - so far:
1. Did you intentionally portray some of the characters as annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even? Ferguson and Roger for example?
2. I wonder if the Major saw himself in his son, and then was able to more objectively look at his own situation. I wonder if the author intended/planned to have the lives of father and son parallel or if it “just happened.” I know authors often talk about characters taking on lives of their own, doing unexpected things, etc. I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was.
3. Jasmina, so willing to make things better for people she loves - even when doing so diminishes the quality of her own life. Does she see it that way?
Does Sandy represent the opposite - determined to have equal say-so or nothing at all?
Does Grace represent the "middle" - wanting to have a life that suits her but bound by tradition to think/act otherwise?
Are any of these characters stereotypes of the way women "ought to be"?
4. How common it is in England for quaint little villages to morph into theme park developments. Were you. exaggerating a bit, or has it already?
5. How long must we wait for your next book? I am a "forever fan" of yours.
6. Is there a film in the works? A sequel, perhaps? a TV mini-series?
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I'm interested in the subject of the parallels in the book. Can we focus on the parallels in the portrayal of these three women - Amina, Grace and Jasmina? How are they alike, and how do they express their individuality in different ways?
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Amina is interesting.. The side story was quite different and ended entirely differently than I expected. She made a good choice, although I am not sure it is a good one for her son.
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Interesting point Joan - looks like all the women - as Steph points out Amina and then, Nancy, Grace, Mrs. Ali, have a strong sense of who they are and make choices accepting the path those choices require. The two that are less flushed out Jemima and Gertrude, both are married but with strong personalities as they go after life on their terms.
Jemima, of all the female characters sounds the most controlling when she seemed to represent her mother although, it sounded more like representing her own interests in the proceeds from the sale of the Churchills - Her mother is another female character who is not flushed out. Daisy attempts to control using tradition, gossip and insensitive leadership. Even the next door neighbor is a sign waving, outspoken citizen of the village. Grace can be a bit of a quiet go-along but when her life is in question she knows what she wants and she stands up for what she wants. Goodness, thinking about it, even Mrs. Khan is no wall flower.
Joan was there something you saw in the three women that we need to consider? Does anyone else see a parallel to Jemima, Amina and Grace?
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Interesting on the Church attitude about inter-faith marriage - I cannot find anything official since the early 1950s - in contemporary circle that is ancient history - and yet, we know that churches move very slowly - but thinking 1951 - and then realizing all the social change since 1951 - '51 is before Elvis much less the Beatles - before the Civil Rights movement much less the Women's movement - 1951 is even before the Vietnam War - Before Kennedy and before there was any talk of outer-space and yet, unless any of you can find something newer - I hope, I hope, I hope - the stand on record for most Christian Religions is to not approve Mixed or Inter-Faith marriages.
The Catholic Church has the most spelled out attitude based on church law written in 1066 in the Code of Canon Law -
All major religious denominations and/or organizations have gone on record opposing them. As early as 1932 the Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America, now better known as the National Council of Churches, declared that "persons contemplating a mixed marriage should be advised not to enter it." Dr. Leland Foster Wood, formerly secretary of the Council's Commission on Marriage and the Home, stated at that time: "In warning young people against the pitfalls of mixed marriage we are taking a position rather similar to the Roman Catholic Faith."
In May, 1950, the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church of the United States announced that it had joined the Protestant Episcopal Church in going on public record as opposed to mixed marriage with its inevitable dangers. Individual denominations have also gone on record opposing interfaith marriages. Typical of many such warnings is that sounded by the Southern Baptist Convention in San Francisco in June, 1951: "We, with our Roman Catholic friends, give public warning of the dangers to harmonious home life in mixed marriage."
Not too long ago Jame A. Pike, Bishop of the Protestant Episcopal Diocese of California, presented his argument against marriages of mixed religion in his book If You Marry Outside Your Faith
Please someone find something that lifts this veil that justifies Christopher's attitude speaking with the Major at Christmas time in church.
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Would you say that Helen S. has portrayed strong women - stronger than her male characters? I was moved by the decisions made by Mrs. Ali, Amina and Grace. Grace, especially. All three of them loved their men, but that love wasn't the thing that determined their decisions. Steph, what do you think Amina was thinking? You mention that she wasn't considering what was best for her son.
Do you see a parallel in the sacrifice each of these three women made?
Grace strongly reminds me of one of Barbara Pym's characters. Are you familiar with her work? I'm wondering if Helen Simonson is a Pymite. Is that how fans of Barbara Pym are described, Rosemary? Barbara Pym's males are rather weak and indecisive too.
I'm not sure if the Major should be described as a weak character - but he is "old school"...like the Vicar. He needs a strong woman to get him to act out of the box.
Barbara, I can't decide whether the Vicar is "old school," behind the times - or if he is mouthing the current teaching of his Church when he tries to soothe the Major.
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Barbara asked, “What did y'all think about the exchange with the Vicar first as the Vicar explains Daisy's, his wife's behavior and then his opinion about the mixed religious background of couples he marries topping it off with his opinion of the Pakistani family in his village... Did he miss a beat representing the extreme conservative views - does his view really represent the attitude of the Christian Church today?”
The whole discussion between the Major and the Vicar on pages 270-273 made me mad! I don’t think his views represent the Christian Church, but his views do represent some people’s views. It was eye opening for the Major to hear what the Vicar had to say and from it deduce how people felt about his relationship with Mrs. Ali. That way he knew what he was up against and was ready to make his “last stand.” At least that is what I think the meaning of the title is --- taking a stand for himself and Jasmina, with the military pun intended because of his military background.
Joan asked: “What of the Major and his Jasmina? Can they return to the village? Will the Major bring her to his club...or to his church? Is there room for her in his life? Or is their time in the cabin in the woods all there can ever be for them?”
I haven’t worked out details in my mind as to exactly where and how the Major and Jasmina will make their relationship work, but I know they will.
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Joan P. "On May 5 she is scheduled for a reading and book signing right here in Arlington - I intend to speak to her then and get my book signed. I'm there!"
Oh how exciting it will be for you to meet our author in person!!
I have completed the book and must say am very pleased with the final chapters. I generally am irritated with the happily ever after ending so expected in most love stories, but I must say H.S. did a splendid job in drawing us into the final chapters rooting for the Major and Mrs. Ali. I saw the Major as a very endearing, loving, caring man, husband, friend and father. Yes, he points out some of his flaws in raising Roger, but in the end it influenced Roger to at least have hope that love can prevail, even though our Roger seemed to still have an angle in contacting Sandy.
I am happy Abdul Wahid and Anmina did not end up married. I was so hoping she would not marry for the sake of the child at this stage. She could tell she and Abdul Wahid were not compatible even though she did love him. I agree they would have grown to resent each other and not be happy. It shows that in today's world couples are less inclined to marry for the sake of a child and family shame.
Poor Wahid, he struggled with his faith and his life and actually thought he could set the entire scene to die and believe it was in his God's hands. I loved the relationship he and the Major had. Roger could see it was a relationship he so wanted with his father and I was glad to see Roger made the effort in the end to let his father know how much he meant to him.
So...now for the guns! I suspected the pair of guns did not really hold an emotional value to the Major as much as the fact he NEEDED to feel he was more important to his father than his brother by expecting the pair of guns to be given to him just because he was the first born. How many times have we personally felt or known someone who just had to have that personal item of the deceased parent, yet then they store it in the attic never to really pay any attention to it once they have it? My Italian Daddy was killed in a train accident when I was just barely two years old. I was the second youngest in line of seven so I can say I didn't know him and his possessions that were treasured by my Mom and sisters and one brother sort of seemed like and enigma growing up. Then when I grew up and had a family of my own, watching my three children with my husband I realized what I had lost out on. I really yearned to have something that was his and my one sister was kind enough to give to me a picture of him, a newspaper clipping of the accident and a copy of his birth certificate. I have his picture sitting out so I can always look at it and see myself a little in his eyes. He was Italian and loved to play his guitar and sing songs to us in Italian as I am told. Well, needless to say the guitar seemed to be the one item that held the most emotional tie to his memory and my sister kept it for years when it was suppose to be given to the only son, our brother. My brother learned to play and sing and is pretty good at it and I would like to one day see him with the guitar. So I guess the guitar is the same as the gun set. It turns out to be one item the father held near and dear and wanted to share with the son as the mother wanted for the son/sons.
I was so happy when Roger said he did not sell the pair of guns. It showed for whatever his motives he in the end grew to understand the semblance of family loyalty.
H.S. did a marvelous job in writing a story that dealt with so many different facets of life, father/son, unwed/unwanted pregnancies, interracial relationships, snobbery, friendship, death, moving on into your later years and accepting ageing, unspoken truths, faith, etc., etc. As a writer myself who hopes to publish a novel one day, she has shown me its never too late to achieve your goals in life.
Ciao for now~
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Laura, Helen S. makes you believe that everyone lived happily ever after - she ends on an upbeat note, doesn't she? There's a part of me that worries about how the happy couple can come back to live without discrimination in the village. There were some hints that the villagers were changing, though. I'm thinking of Daisy's regrets for her behavior. Won't it be painful for Grace? I felt she really cared for the Major...but she knew she wasn't enough for him.
Bella - do you feel the author provided a happy ending for everyone of her characters? I'm interested to what you think of Roger at the end. Has he changed - or do we just understand him better?
As someone who hopes to be published one day, is anything you would like to ask Helen S. when she returns to the discussion? There is still time to add to the list of questions - or to address her personally when she returns. We'll advertise the date and the time. Just be aware that she can only come in for a short period of time and there may not be time to address everything.
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Do you see the Major changing at this time of his life? Are those Churchills important to him any longer?
What do you all see as Major Pettigrew's "LAST STAND"? Do you agree with Laura - when he took a stand for himself and Jasmina, with the military pun intended because of his military background? Or even before that when he struggled on the cliffs to save Abdul Wahid?
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Won't it be painful for Grace?
No, I don't think Grace is the kind of person who would allow herself to live with pain knowing how much the Major and Mrs. Ali loved each other. I can see Grace being a close friend to the both of them.
do you feel the author provided a happy ending for everyone of her characters? I'm interested to what you think of Roger at the end. Has he changed - or do we just understand him better?
No, I do not feel there was a happy ending for all. I feel Abdul Wahid will live with the struggle inside himself for the shame he felt he brought to the family. I'm not sure I did see a drastic change in Roger in the end. I saw him accept some things in life and open up to a closer relationship with his father. Personally, I don't see a happily ever after for Roger and Sandy unless she is willing to put up with his shenanigans. He did express how he "needed" to come home when his life blew up, so possibly he has a new found appreciation for his small town and the people there. I think the threat of losing his father and job did give him pause to rethink what is of value to him. But the comment he made about contacting Sandy was still a bit shallow.
Question for H.S.....As an aspiring writer, can you tell me where you found the time to write with being a mother, wife etc.? Did you have a special space you made just for your writing? What time of the day or night did you find the best quality time for writing?
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The guns.. I will say after my husbands death, my sons were thrilled when I gave them all of the watches. My husband loved watches and collected them. I gave them to my sons at Christmas of that year. They went off together and picked in turn.. They spent probably an hour all by themselves and came back with such wistful smiles and have never spoke of who got what.. But it made them happy and that made me happy.
Amina.. I found interesting. She had a hard decision, but she made it and I think she will be fine, but I hope that George gets to keep the Major and Mrs. Ali as his special friends.
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I think there are different meanings to "Major Pettigrew's Last Stand," although I am not sure if my thoughts are those of the author's. As a military person, I feel his last stand was saving Abdul Wahid from committing suicide. He armed himself with his gun, and was ready to die to save Wahid. That was true heroism in my eyes, which is what his father showed and was awarded the churchill guns. Then he made a "last stand" when he stood in front of all his small town, some racist friends to marry Jasmina. He stood up to the town letting them know he would marry her regardless if they shunned him along with her and kicked him out of their social club and lives. The other "last stand" I feel the Major took was with his son Roger. He ultimately came to the point of letting him know just how shallow and self absorbed he was and that he would not tolerate his rudeness, whining, drunken and materialistic minded behavior. And the final "last stand" I see the Major taking is choosing to live his life out in love and passion. He had a very comfortable life before he met Mrs. Ali and her family. Once Jasmina left he could have settled for Grace and lived a semi happy life with her, but instead he made the decision to go for complete happiness regardless of how old he was.
The scene of him and Jasmina at the cottage in the woods, making love, waking up to the sunshine, she wrapped in the blanket approaching him at the brook, drinking tea and doing their little dance was absolutely my favorite part of the book. This may not have been intended to be a love story so to speak, but it was a tender love story to me, with all the trials, tribulations and triumphs every great love story entails.
Fitting for a Royal wedding, I enjoyed watching Prince William and Princess Catherine's (Kate) ceremony today. Every now and then a fairytale is just what we need in life. I pray for their happiness and safety and await the new heir to be born one day.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie I love how you connect the story of the Major and Jasmina Ali to today's Royal Wedding - both are filled with such joy - and I love how you list like a litany the Major's last stands - what a wonderful reminder that many of us are approaching the last of our lives and this is our chance, possibly our last chance to make our stand. I love the 21st century view of making a last stand that the Major epitomizes - he is not all blow and bluster but rather makes his stand often with a zinging quip but you know he is firm in his future behavior.
And yes, the cottage in the woods - I love how it is Jasmina Ali who invites him to bed and how awake early he walks in the woods, acting like a Red Deer Buck, feeling like the past had rolled off his back and then their shared joy as the sun starts the day.
Steph what a tender memory of your sons having time together as they decide who will carry what watch in memory of their Dad. And George - I can just see the two of them, the Major and Jasmina Pettigrew casually walking in the village - or the Major meeting Jasmina after her trip to the library and running into George at play when he visits his father. Later, I can see George and Abdul coming for supper while George is visiting - I see Anmina making it as a dancer in the Theater and I hope she brings George back to his father at least by the time he is 9 or 10 so she can dance and his father can give him a stable village life. If so than I see George and the Major having their chess games in the Park.
And Bellamaria I agree with you I do not see happy-ever-after for Sandy and Roger - I think they will both be successful on their own but as hard as Roger tries to be the modern man he is still attached to his traditions that I cannot see supporting Sandy after her comment about the dream of a cottage being dangerous.
Laura I wonder why - because I do it as well - that we expect the church leaders of the world to be leading us towards more acceptance and understanding of each other and yet, many seem to be models for others to follow of how to stick to words written thousands of years ago that justify acting on values and morality of 50 and 100 years ago. Most of the characters in Helen S's. story do seem to be on the cusp of a new day and in time I see their basic nature of good will and the English love of lawns, flowers, golf, raising a glass and decency rising to the top in spite of themselves.
That was the picture I saw today of so many picnicking on the lawns after the excitement of the Royals acting out their traditional roles. And did you notice we hardly saw all the cousins, uncles and aunts - they blended into the attending crowd not wearing the gold decorated bright uniforms or standing on the Royal Balcony. Seems like this generation is taking the best of the new with the best of tradition which is so emblematic of Helen Simonson's village - because I do think Daisy had her come-uppance.
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I loved the mental pictures of Jasmina and the Major.. Yes, I did believe all along it was a love story and a different one at that.. A lovely book. It is on my IPAD and I archived it, so I can read it again as I wish.
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Bellamarie said: “I suspected the pair of guns did not really hold an emotional value to the Major as much as the fact he NEEDED to feel he was more important to his father than his brother by expecting the pair of guns to be given to him just because he was the first born.”
Ah ha! That never occurred to me! Of course, that’s why these discussions are so interesting --- because they expose me to new thoughts and ideas! Great “last stand” examples too!
Joan asked: “Do you feel the author provided a happy ending for every one of her characters? I'm interested to what you think of Roger at the end. Has he changed - or do we just understand him better?”
The ending was definitely not a happy one for every one of the characters. I do think the characters had a sense of resolution about themselves and their lives though.
I think Roger has matured somewhat. I don’t think his basic character has changed, but his expectations and how he reacts to things has matured a bit.
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BarbStAubrey[/b]..."Seems like this generation is taking the best of the new with the best of tradition which is so emblematic of Helen Simonson's village"
Yes, I agree with you and it proved to be absolutely beautiful! I could not beleive my eyes watching Prince Wiliam and Princess Kate driving alone in the Asten Martin with a JUST WED sign and balloons and streamers. NO WAY in the world could Prince Charles and Princess Diana have attempted to get away with something like that. It would not have even been a glimmer of thought in their minds. lolol Yet William & Kate stayed with tradition with the beautiful ceremony in Westminister Abbey. I have already reserved the Ashton Drake porcelain doll of Princess Kate to put along side all my Princess Diana dolls. In May my hubby and I celebrate our 40th wedding anniversary and this will be my special gift from him along with a replica of the sapphire engagement ring. We are true romantics at heart, that is why I loved the Major and Jasmina so much!
H.S. Did a marvelous job in blending the old with the new in not only the town, but the people themselves. I have this book on my nook color and will cherish it and read it again. Its like a really good movie, you miss some things the first time around and must go back and see/read it again.
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I know it is not fashionable to say so, but I think Prince Charles did a splendid job of allowing his sons to have so much more freedom than he ever had. Without any announcements, he simply did a good job with them. I also heard several times during the run up to the wedding how much Camilla helped Katherine..
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It all comes back to those guns, doesn't it? Or does it? Is it the guns - or what they signify?
The Major tells his Roger that he had longed for the day he would have both guns so that he would look important to people he felt were more important than he was. Wow! He says this to Roger! Isn't this how Roger has been living his life? Trying to LOOK important? More important than he feels he is? So many of these characters feel this need to appear more than they fear they appear.
Bellamarie said: “I suspected the pair of guns did not really hold an emotional value to the Major as much as the fact he NEEDED to feel he was more important to his father than his brother by expecting the pair of guns to be given to him just because he was the first born.”
Did you notice - that the gun that smashed over the cliffs was not the Major's - but rather it was Bertie's! And the Major felt only the faintest disappointment - if anything.
I smiled at Helen Simonson's metaphor to describe his disappointment -
...like "finding a favorite sweater accidentally boilded along with the white laundry and shrunk to a felt mess sized for a small terrier."I feel compelled to point out - from experience- that this feeling is devastating to the knitter of the sweater, who spent hours on an intricate Aran knit pattern sweater for a large son, who tossed it into the laundry - and the dryer... a felt mass indeed! Would you believe I have already knitted him another - and following suggestions from fellow knitters, have framed the little felt sweater and given it to him to hang above his washing machine - though the suggested mittens would probably have been quite warm too.
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We're down to the last days of this discussion. Hopefully we will hear from Helen S. tomorrow about when she can return to our discussion before we close.
I think we all agree that this was a good love story - to write one that is good and "different" is quite a challenge. It will be interesting to see what Helen S. comes up with next. I'll bet it won't be formulaic. Do you think she even has time to write and research with all the book tours and signings? Bella, will include your question - a good one about finding time to write with children at home.
At first I worried that she was going to tie up all the love stories with a happily-ever after ending for all... as if ending a long running soap opera. She didn't do that, did she? She finishes with the rather unconventional observation - "it's not enough to be in love."
I'll bet we each have personal experience with this ...
Do you think her purpose was to write a love story?
Have we discussed Major Pettigrew's LAST Stand? Bella has mentioned several possibilities. WHen coming up with the title for this book, do you think Helen S. had something specific in mind? What would YOU say was his LAST stand? Shall we ask the author?
A lovely Sunday to all...
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Steph, I must say when I saw Camilla at the wedding I got aches in my stomach. Diana belonged there and after reading many books and knowing her pain when she was alive, it is such a sad day that William's mother was not there to share in his happiness. Imagine being nineteen yrs old, marrying your Prince only to go on your honeymoon and discover he is in the other room on the ship talking to his lover on the phone and seeing he was given as a wedding present from his mistress cufflinks engraved with CC (Charles & Camilla). Things would have been so much different had Charles been honest and not married Diana knowing he was in love with Camilla, or if he had broken it off and stayed true to his wedding vows... maybe Diana would still be alive today to share in the wedding. I personally can never accept Camilla as anything more than a mistress and adulterer. I can never see Charles as King nor Camilla as Queen. Sorry if I sound bitter, its just so sad for me I have followed this Royal family since Diana and Charles engagement. I know Diana was there in spirit and knowing how she raised her sons they would be accepting of Camilla if only for the fact she is their father's wife now.
JoanP...LOLOL I love your sweater story. Yes, I did notice how H.S. let the broken, gone forever gun be Bertie's rather than the Major's. A bit ironic don't you think? But then again I suspect the Major made the decision to take Bertie's gun because he really didn't care at all about it so if something were to happen to it he still had his treasured one safe and sound at home. I can just see H.S. sitting at her laptop giggling as he types this. Or is that the writer in me when I come up with something as perfect as this to end on. I loved the humor in it.
I think we should ask the author what she intended Major Pettigrew's last stand to be. I anxiously await her responses to all our questions.
Ciao for now~
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O h Bella and I am the opposite about Camilla and Charles and Diana.. I found Diane not terribly bright. (Her family is prominent enough to know what was what with Charles). She cheated early and often.. did love her sons and did a good job with them. But by the end she was running around europe with trash, since that is all the Dodi was . I think she would be hanging out with Sarah and the two of them running around with all sorts of men. So I like Camilla and Charles looks truly devoted.
The Major.. The guns.. that part is still bewildering to me, but I do hate guns so very much.
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I think Camilla is a good woman. The sad thing is that Charles was prevented from marrying her in the first place. So many bad things have happened because of royal protocol - just look at Princess Margaret. Camilla was clearly made for Charles. Diana had a hard time because she too was a victim of the royal system and had not got a clue what she was marrying into, (she also had a very unhappy childhood, which can't have helped) but it's true that she was playing the celebrity game towards the time of her death. I get the impression that the princes like Camilla - she is one of them, in that she was brought up in a very royal way, and is into all that hunting, shooting and fishing stuff that Diana couldn't stand. She seems very game for anything, and doesn't try to put herself in the limelight. They were all 3 adulterers, but that's hardly unusual nowadays. Let's hope Kate is a bit more savvy - they do seem like a much more modern couple, and the royal "police" do seem to have had to lighten up a bit.
Rosemary
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What do you think - is Jasmina into all that hunting, shooting and fishing stuff? Maybe the Major has lost interest in showing of at the hunt with his
guns gun? Surely the wind is gone from Lord Dagenham's sail. He won't be organizing any more of those hunting parties for wealthy investors in wealthy estates.
I thought it was quite funny - can't you just picture Helen S. gleefully, wickedly describing the Rasools' country hotel on his estate, with the Lord holed up in the east wing - "bewildered to find such strange people on his back lawn."
I love to see a writer having a good time, rather than struggling to get things just right.
I'm going to make a guess - that the Major's last stand is this wedding in front of the accepting Pakistanis and his reluctant friends, the bewildered Lord of the estate, the Vicar, "looking lost." What a perfect ending to a book which begins with the front cover image of the man and woman's coat, nestled together on the coat stand...
What's your guess for his last stand? You can only choose one instance...
It will be fun to hear the author's answer to this question. Hopefully we will hear something from her today if she has recovered from her trip abroad.
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Well, I think the whole book is about last stands, which in this case is the man himself. He's slowly changed into the man he's meant to be. Perhaps one could say, "he's found himself." He's become aware of what's important -- the woman he loves -- and what's not, the guns and the opinions of others, and he's met other challenges along the way.
The wedding at the end is certainly fitting, and sums it all up.
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We all love a wedding when the husband and wife are obviously in love, no?
Here are the questions we plan to put to Helen S. when she gets here - please let me know if there are any edits or further questions that you would like to add to the list?
Questions for the Author on her Return (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/authorreturnquestions.html)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
April 16 - 24 ~ Chapters 13-17
April 25 - April 30 ~ Chapters 18-25
May 1-May 3 ~ Epilogue, Final Impressions, Visit with the Author
*****
Questions from our Readers for Helen
1. Did you intentionally portray some of the characters as annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even? Ferguson and Roger for example?
2. How common it is for quaint little villages in England to be developed into theme-park makeovers? Were you exaggerating a bit, or has it actually been happening?
3. I wonder if the Major saw himself in his son, and then was able to more objectively look at his own situation. I wonder if the author intended/planned to have the lives of father and son parallel or if it “just happened.” I know authors often talk about characters taking on lives of their own, doing unexpected things, etc. I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was.
4. Jasmina is so willing to make things better for people she loves - even when doing so diminishes the quality of her own life. Does she see it that way? Does Sandy represent the opposite - determined to have equal say-so or nothing at all? Does Grace represent the "middle" - wanting to have a life that suits her but bound by tradition to think/act otherwise? Are any of these characters stereotypes of the way women "ought to be"?
5. Your strong female characters, and men without consequence, bring to mind Barbara Pym's characters, who feel that love alone is not always enough reason for marriage. Have you read her novels? Do you feel they have influenced you?
Follow up - do you see the Major as a "strong" character?
6. The Vicar's reasoning against this mixed marriage upset quite a few. Can you tell us if he was mouthing Church teaching or expressing his own opinions based on what others might think?
7. When you decided on the title of your first novel, what did you have in mind as Major Pettigrew's LAST STAND? Do you agree that when he took a stand for himself and Jasmina, with the military pun intended, because of his military background?
8. As an aspiring writer, can you tell me where you found the time to write with being a mother, wife etc.? Did you have a special space you made just for your writing? What time of the day or night did you find the best quality time for writing?
9. How long must we wait for your next book? I am a "forever fan" of yours.
10. Is there a film in the works? A sequel, perhaps? a TV mini-series?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson, Part 1 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html); Questions for the Author on her Return (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/authorreturnquestions.html);
SeniorLearn's Questions for Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/majorpettigrewquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118); The India-Pakistan Partition (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/indo-pak-partition2.htm)
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Breaking news! Helen Simonson will return to the Major Pettigrew discussion tomorrow morning - 11 am EDT to respond to our questions. Hope you can make it!
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Steph~ Diana was not so terribly bright as you suggested. She was a 19 yr old virgin going into a marriage with all the hopes of love & loyalty. She was not unfaithful for some time because she was naive to believe she could get Charles to love her and give up his affair with Camilla. I have read almost every book I could get my hands on and also listened to many interviews she gave. As she got older she had to manipulate the press because it was the only way she could get her side told. She was nothing like Sarah and I admire how she stayed in that marriage under the worst of treatment from the Queen and the unfaithfulness of Charles. She in my opinion deserved to try to find happiness with someone else when she finally realized she would never have Charles's love. She did indeed date after their break up and the media violated her privacy to the ends of the earth, which was the result of her death.
rosemarykaye~With all due respect knowing you are the true Brit here, I must say indeed Charles was not permitted to marry Camilla because she was still a married woman. She could not have given him the heirs the Queen demanded even had they were allowed to wed. Yes, in the end Diana manipulated the celebrity/media that was forced upon her. I felt very sad for her because of knowing her childhood was so sad and then she thinks she is going to marry this Prince and live happily ever after only to find the wicked Queen mother and the disloyal husband. Her family knew royalty but they weren't there for her as a child so why would you assume they would be there to protect her from this family? Her two sons were her life saving grace. I agree that Charles and Camilla were suited for each other and its so sad Diana had to pay the high price for their infidelity and dishonesty. How does two people find happiness after knowing the hurt they brought to another? They both look quite stuffy and boring to me. LOLOL
JoanP~No, I don't see Jasmina into all that shooting, fishing etc. kind of stuff, but then again she and the Major are experiencing all sorts of never before things so maybe she could give it a try, after an afternoon reading of Kipling. LOLOL
I await to hear from our author.
Ciao for now~
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I agree with Pedlin.This is his last stand.. His ability to change, to find love in a decidedly different place.. To learn how to get along with his son..All the book is bout his last stand.
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Please post when you come in if you are able to join us here at 11am EDT. (If you can't make it at the appointed hour, you will be able to read Helen's responses later -)
These are some of the questions that arose from our discussion of her book that we hope the author will address -
Questions submitted by you - the Readers (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/authorreturnquestions.html)
Feel free to ask follow-up questions - new ones too.
Steph, it will be interesting to hear from the author what she intended by the Major's LAST Stand. Laura has questionned whether there was a military connection...
It won't be long now -
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I'm here - need to read more of my email and then be right back.
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Hello from Helen Simonson - glad to be back but reeling from a set of questions that sounds like a PhD thesis on Major Pettigrew. Not sure I'm bright enough to keep up!
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Good morning, Helen! ;D
Sorry, but these readers enjoyed dissecting your book. Shall we start with the title?
When you decided on the title of your first novel, what did you have in mind as Major Pettigrew's LAST STAND? Do you agree that when he took a stand for himself and Jasmina, with the military pun intended because of his military background?
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Last Stand - it was an ironic play on the idea of the military hero (eg. Custer's Last Stand) and I always thought the Major would fail to make himself a hero when it counted. it was a pleasant surprise when he physically took a stand, on the cliffs, and when he overcame his natural reserve to make an unexpected leap for the brass ring of true love. Of course, the cover came later and is of a 'hat stand' so the book, in my mind, is now "Major Pettigrew's Last Hat Stand."
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I also don't believe that life is made up of a few shining moments - first love, last chance - so I used the title as a counterpoint to a man whose true nobility lies in his ability to get up each day and try to make good on the personal failings of yesterday. Life is about slow perserverence not flashy stands.
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"a man whose true nobility lies in his ability to get up each day and try to make good on the personal failings of yesterday."
Do you see the Major as a "strong" character?
We loved your women - Grace, Jasmina and Amina, especially -
Your strong female characters, and men without consequence, bring to mind Barbara Pym's characters, who feel that love alone is not always enough reason for marriage. Have you read her novels? Do you feel they have influenced you?
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Helen who found the cover photo?
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I'm so glad you had discussion about Grace and what she represents. She sort of bumbled along representing herself. I sat for a long time over the scene of the Major's half-hearted marriage proposal. I thought it was his shabbiest moment and I really didn't know if Grace would say 'yes'. This would have caused me all sorts of problems but I was prepared to work around her answer. Her final answer was, I think, a good one. However, I do think it was an inspirational and aspirational answer in a grim world of too few decent men!! I got grief from many of my own friends over it.
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His shabbiness allowed us to see Grace in her awe inspiring best...thanks for that.
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I haven't read Barbara Pym - though I am oft recommended her books. I think she is probably too good at saying just what I would want to say and so I think I'll continue to steer clear. I wrote the Major as a 'weak' man. People love him so much they ascribe him an overt nobility I don't really see. His nobility lives in his self awareness - something many people lack.
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I think you would love Pym's books - you won't get any grief from us about Grace's response.
Another question from one of our readers about your women...
Jasmina is so willing to make things better for people she loves - even when doing so diminishes the quality of her own life. Does she see it that way? Does Sandy represent the opposite - determined to have equal say-so or nothing at all? Does Grace represent the "middle" - wanting to have a life that suits her but bound by tradition to think/act otherwise? Are any of these characters stereotypes of the way women "ought to be"?
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I'm glad you saw through my male hero to see my interest in strong women. However, the only way to write is to write individuals. The women just happened to come out strong in most cases. One of my favorites was Mrs. Rasool, running a business empire and trying to pretend she did not! The cover was found by the random House art department and they deserve huge credit for making my cover an icon - other authors ask for a "Pettigrew" cover, I'm told.
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So, no, you are not writing about stereotypes, but rather individuals?
Let's talk about your men -
Did you intentionally portray them as annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even? Ferguson and Roger for example? And let's not forget the Vicar...
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Most writers will be very unhappy if you ask whether their characters are stereotypes! Mrs. Ali's determination to support her nephew came from a deep maternal love. She did not have children of her own and I believe this caused her pain and that she regarded Abdul Wahid as a son. It was probably then painful when his parents got to decide everything and took him away for some years. I rtied to access my own feelings for my sons whenever Mrs. Ali thought of Abdul Wahid. She is as strong as Sandy - she is just older, wiser and understands that compromise will happen - and that all the fervor in the world can not always make things happen the way you want. She represents the realism of age that young people find infuriating!
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Oh wow - what a great thought "She represents the realism of age that young people find infuriating! " Yes!
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So, no, you are not writing about stereotypes, but individuals. That says a lot. Please don't feel badly that the question was asked.
Let's talk about your men -
Did you intentionally portray them as annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even? Ferguson and Roger for example? And let's not forget the Vicar...
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I love Ferguson! In a world that contains Donald Trump, I believe Ferguson is a sensitive man, an artist of the brick and I was very happy to see him marry Gertrude and get the entree into British society that he so badly wanted. Meanwhile, Roger is my non-fiction character made up of stupid things I have said to my parents and habits I have observed in myself and my various hard-working ambitious friends. it is funny that the mere mention of fancy cars, penthouses and interior decorating make a character unlikable! Roger says nothing that you and I have not said or thought at some time! He is the brashest part of us all.
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As a girl from New Jersey, I felt I recognized Ferguson too. But I didn't love him! Sensitive? I guess you knew him better. ;)
How about the Vicar? His reasoning against this mixed marriage upset quite a few. Can you tell us if he was mouthing Church teaching or expressing his own opinions based on what others might think?
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It is Roger's sense of entitlement that got to me...
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One thing I've noticed in producing this book is that when you write one individual, or one incident, it does tend to expand and be seen to represent the universal or the 'stereotype'. I'm not offended by the question - it is a decided hazard though, for a writer. I have had angry emails from individual Flower Guild Ladies, Private Equity employees and Americans - all accusing me of stereotyping an entire class of people. It is very hard to avoid as it is natural to look for patterns and representations in literature.
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That's understandable. It was primarily the male characters who seemed to ignite passion - perhaps we all knew the "type"?
We also saw parallels...here's another question from one of our readers...
I wonder if the Major saw himself in his son, and then was able to more objectively look at his own situation. I wonder if the author intended/planned to have the lives of father and son parallel or if it “just happened.” I know authors often talk about characters taking on lives of their own, doing unexpected things, etc. I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was.
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;) At least you know the outraged folks have read your book :D
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Barbara, can you think of anyone who caused more "outrage" than the Vicar in our discussion?
How about the Vicar? His reasoning against this mixed marriage upset quite a few. Can you tell us if you saw him as mouthing Church teaching or expressing his own opinions based on what others might think?
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I'm not up on Church of England dogma in particular but it does beg the question, doesn't it? If you believe only Jesus Christ can save souls, then where would that leave your Muslim wife? Certainly not in the graveyard which is consecrated ground for registered parishioners only. I was definitely taking a little poke at the C of E but this is actually an issue for all religions - if you practice in a conservative manner. I think in the USA, some of us like to gloss over whatever dogma does not suit us and I was very interested in what would happen if you tried to stick to dogma. Abdul Wahid represents this idea and he is tortured about his life. This is a BIG issue and I tried to keep it as small as possible in my book.
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Helen the dry humor in the many quips from the Major are priceless - is this part of your personality or the personality of someone near and dear to you?
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Did you really have a fight over the Vicar and feel outrage? I thought he was pointing out the obvious difficulty for a man of the cloth. There are similar difficulties for all our ministers over abortion, over same sex marriage and so on. I'm firmly on the side of 'anything goes' but I'm not an ordained minister responsible for maintaining faith standards.
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I think in keeping the big issues "small" you accomplished a great deal. You didn't belabor them, though they caused your characters to react. Many of our readers could hardly believe that a church would be so narrow as to deny them.
Back to the marriage...how do you see the Major and Jasmina in the future - will they attend the Vicar's church? Will they be buried in that little cemetary beside the church?
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I was afraid that the dry humor was just a British thing and that I wasn't really being funny. I have been informed that I speak like my book reads and I am very grateful to be thought witty. I would prefer to be thought amazingly slender and outrageously beautiful but that is just not how it's going on my book tour.
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This is a late addition question, to be answered only if you have time.
We really haven’t said much about one of the most likable characters and that is George. Does he serve a special purpose here or represent anything in particular? His name, of course, is so very British, I wondered if perhaps he was a sign of better things to come for the Pakistani population.
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It sounds like you speak like the Major, not knowing that you are outrageously funny!
I hope to see you as you hope to be seen - in Arlington on Thursday pm.
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Unless Mrs. Ali converts to Christianity she will not be allowed a spot in the churchyard. She and the Major will have to be buried in the Municipal Cemetery in Hazelbourne-on-Sea. Which begs the question of whether the Major will be buried with Nancy or Jasmina? Which begs the bigger question...and here we go again off in a discussion about the nature of God. it's all quite exhausting, isn't it? Perhaps a cup of tea...
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Pedln...good to see you - you and little George...
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Joan we are all green with envy - Helen your story is wonderful - my big complaint is why Random house does not do a better job of featuring your book on their Home page or at lest include the book as having a list of group questions - this story would make a perfect movie - hope that comes to be...
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It is a big question, isn't it? I was a bit surprised that some were aghast that this would be the case. Maybe they were expressing dismay that the Church - that any Church is exclusive.
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GEORGE - yes, no accident in naming him after England's patron saint. He is the future of England, like it or not, and it was not a giant leap of imagination to heap the unanswerable future onto his slim and adorable shoulders. One can only hop for incremental improvement such that George will feel more of a sense of belonging to his own country that his parents or grandparents' generation felt.
Will be delighted to see you in Arlington!
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson
April Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/majorbookcover.jpg) | "When Major Pettigrew, a retired British army major in a small English village, embarks on an unexpected friendship with the widowed Mrs. Ali, who runs the local shop, trouble erupts to disturb the bucolic serenity of the village and of the Major’s carefully regimented life.
"As the Major and Mrs. Ali discover just how much they have in common, including an educated background and a shared love of books, they must struggle to understand what it means to belong and how far the obligations of family and tradition can be set aside for personal freedom. Meanwhile, the village itself, lost in its petty prejudices and traditions, may not see its own destruction coming." New York Times (best seller)
"...a wry and witty love story set in a little English village where small town prejudices, and race and religious intolerances are alive and well. With gentle insight, the author captures the thrill of falling in love after 60 and the disruption romance can introduce into a well-settled life." |
Discussion Schedule:
April 1-7 ~ Chapters 1-6]
April 8 - 15 ~ Chapters 7-12
April 16 - 24 ~ Chapters 13-17
April 25 - April 30 ~ Chapters 18-25
May 1-May 3 ~ Epilogue, Final Impressions, Visit with the Author
*****
Questions from our Readers for Helen
1. Did you intentionally portray some of the characters as annoying - unlikable - unbelievable, even? Ferguson and Roger for example?
2. How common it is for quaint little villages in England to be developed into theme-park makeovers? Were you exaggerating a bit, or has it actually been happening?
3. I wonder if the Major saw himself in his son, and then was able to more objectively look at his own situation. I wonder if the author intended/planned to have the lives of father and son parallel or if it “just happened.” I know authors often talk about characters taking on lives of their own, doing unexpected things, etc. I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was.
4. Jasmina is so willing to make things better for people she loves - even when doing so diminishes the quality of her own life. Does she see it that way? Does Sandy represent the opposite - determined to have equal say-so or nothing at all? Does Grace represent the "middle" - wanting to have a life that suits her but bound by tradition to think/act otherwise? Are any of these characters stereotypes of the way women "ought to be"?
5. Your strong female characters, and men without consequence, bring to mind Barbara Pym's characters, who feel that love alone is not always enough reason for marriage. Have you read her novels? Do you feel they have influenced you?
Follow up - do you see the Major as a "strong" character?
6. The Vicar's reasoning against this mixed marriage upset quite a few. Can you tell us if he was mouthing Church teaching or expressing his own opinions based on what others might think?
7. When you decided on the title of your first novel, what did you have in mind as Major Pettigrew's LAST STAND? Do you agree that when he took a stand for himself and Jasmina, with the military pun intended, because of his military background?
8. As an aspiring writer, can you tell me where you found the time to write with being a mother, wife etc.? Did you have a special space you made just for your writing? What time of the day or night did you find the best quality time for writing?
9. How long must we wait for your next book? I am a "forever fan" of yours.
10. Is there a film in the works? A sequel, perhaps? a TV mini-series?
Related Links:
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html); NPR's Interview with the Author (http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-11-26/helen-simonson-major-pettigrews-last-stand-rebroadcast/transcript); Churchill Rifles - "World's Finest" (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Images3/Churchill%201958.jpg); Churchill Method: Rules of Shooting (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Churchills-Game-Shooting-Wingshooting/product-reviews/0924357118); The India-Pakistan Partition (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/indo-pak-partition2.htm)
Discussion Leaders: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com) & JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
It is the bits of wisdom sprinkled through out that most impressed me - and glory be the hub bub at the dance was so well written -
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A good question, Pedln. You knew that George was important to the story.
Barbara mentions a film - Is there one in the works? A sequel, perhaps? a TV mini-series? So many of the scenes would translate well to film - the dance, the duck hunt, the scene on the white cliffs...
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Running off to write now. Second book is SLOW going when so many delightful invitations, such as this, come to tempt me away. regards to all and feel free to email me at helen@majorpettigrew.com. HS
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Yes, movie option signed. Now we just hold our breath for up to five years or so!!!! Goodbye all. best, HS
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Yaaay! We'll wait for word of the movie! Maybe we don't have time for that last question...I'll bring it to you on Thursday!
Thank you so much for your time, busy lady! Wonderful interview!
Can't forget to ask about your next book...although we have to ask, when do you get a chance to write?
And this is a good time to ask this question from Bella, one of our readers - and writers-
"As an aspiring writer, can you tell me where you found the time to write with being a mother, wife etc.? Did you have a special space you made just for your writing? What time of the day or night did you find the best quality time for writing? "
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Thank you Helen and thank you Joan - as always you can hold things together under the best and worst of situations - interesting Pedln hadn't thought of George as an emblem of the future but he is isn't he...Joan again, thanks this was a special treat...
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Thanks to all of YOU - all I had to do was type in your questions. And thanks to Helen for answering them so willingly and completely. Bella, Sheila, I'll take your questions on to the book signing/reading in Arlington on Thursday pm. (And will listen closely for clues to the author's next book!)
Laura, I see that this question go lost in the shuffle too - a good one to take to the reading on Thursday -
"I wonder if the Major saw himself in his son, and then was able to more objectively look at his own situation. I wonder if the author intended/planned to have the lives of father and son parallel or if it “just happened.” I know authors often talk about characters taking on lives of their own, doing unexpected things, etc. I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was."
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Now can we hear from those of you who had a different response to this book - who may have felt somwhat inhibited knowing the author was going to visit today?
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Super discussion! Thanks Joan and Barbara!
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Thank you, Laura!
Here's this morning's interview - all in one place -
SeniorLearn Readers' Interview with Helen Simonson (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/majorpettigrew/simonsonquestions.html);[
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Many thanks, Joan and Barbara. And everyone who participated. It was a great discussion with many well-thought-out opinions.
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Pedln, are you anywhere near the flooding in your area of MO?
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Oh what a treat to come in and see Helen's discussion. It was very gracious of her to take our questions and I giggle when I see once again our overactive minds have taken some of the characters to places she had no real intention for. I love how we just disect and ponder ourselves beyond what the authors ever intended.
So our author did not see the humor we and other readers saw in the book, especially the Major. I am shocked, because I found myself laughing out loud. Another interesting point she made was she intended the Major to be a weak man. I can now see how two or more people can read a paragraph or even a sentence and come away with an entirely different perceptive.
JoanP and Barbara thank you so much for the fantastic discussion and the interview with Helen. Joan I am sure you will have a delightful time meeting her in person, and do let us know if you get the chance to ask her any of our other questions. Thank you to all the wonderful posts, I really did enjoy the book and discussion even if I began late and played catch up. This book will have a special place in my nook and I can see me reading it again. Until we meet again.......
Ciao for now~
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I was startled at the idea of the Major being weak.. I thought that he tried so very hard each day. So I guess it is in the eye of the reader on any story.
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Steph, I never thought of the Major as weak. He behaved "weakly" in some areas; but I didn't feel he was weak. A little set in his ways, but......
Thank you, Joan and Barbara for a great discussion and the interview with HS. You did a great job!
Sally
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The Major didn't come across as being 'weak' to me either. I thought he was just very British - a tad old-fashioned for someone only 68? - certainly he was set in his ways and perhaps more than a trifle intolerant of others. But that was part of his charm and also a perfect device by the author so she could then have him 'unbend' little by little as Mrs Ali turned his preconceptions upside down.
I did think that HS wrote this with one eye firmly on a movie contract - well option anyway - it appears that it would be just too easy to adapt to film.
On the downside I do think HS touched on too many issues without being able to really work through them in sufficient depth in the space she allowed herself.
I'm sorry I didn't participate more often - Once again, I've been battling a recurrent virus which is out to 'get' me.
JoanP and Barb - thanks for all you do. The discussions with Simonson were truly excellent. She treated the questions you posed with respect and answered them fully. Thank you both! Meeting her in Arlington should be a hoot.
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Thanks for a good discussion.
And Joan, get a photo of you and Helen.
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Gumtree, I do hope you feel better soon. I always love your thoughts and insight in our discussions. I especially like and agree with this statement.
On the downside I do think HS touched on too many issues without being able to really work through them in sufficient depth in the space she allowed herself.[/i]
After reading H.S.'s comments I surmised she is a writer of great strength, but short on elaborating too much on one specific topic or interpretation of her characters. Reading her answers to our questions left me seeing her as a no nonsense kind of writer/person. We at senior learn have a thirst for depth on issues we see in our books we read. Now don't misinterpret, I am in no way criticizing our author, but I agree that there were so many issues that could have been developed, but then again it would have had to be a much longer book to write and read and just possibly she left it to the reader to ponder and decide which direction to take the characters. Many great authors are known to leave the reader thinking and wanting more....lol
JoanP, I found the answer to my question about how does H.S. find the time to write and does she have a certain place she does her writing. There is a section at the back of my book on my nook called, A Conversation with Helen Simonson..Random House Reader's Circle.
She state's "I struggle to maintain a proper writing schedule. It has been a shock to discover that now that I am a published writer, I am still a mother and have a full plate of mom obligations, plus the appearances, writing assignments and office work that comes with promoting a published book. Who knew being a writer was work! I know that to write, I need to start first thing in the morning, with a mind empty of anything else, and to get out of the house. I'm sharing an office space with some other writers, and going to "work" seems to help. I have slowly come to the conclusion that this struggle to find consistencyand a good routine, and to pile up creative work, is the challenge of all creative people. It is what separates the writer from the person who has an idea for a novel if they could just find the time."
I look forward to the movie, so let's all decide who we would like to play some of the characters...come on it will be fun!
Major Pettigrew......Hugh Grant
Mrs. Ali.................Penelope Cruz (aged makeup)
Roger...................Jude Law
Sandy...................Cameron Diaz
Abdul Wahid...........
Animina.................Rachel McAdams
George..................
Grace....................Kate Winslet
Mr. Ferguson...........Russell Crowe
Alice Pierce.............Kathy Bates (tee hee)
i am at a loss for Abdul and George I kinda like Will Smith's little boy for George. So let's see who you all come up with. Okay got to go get ready for a Tim Magraw concerte tonight, am so excited!!
Ciao for now~
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We'll stay open another day or two to give everyone a chance to read Helen's remarks from yesterday - and to hear anything more about her next book. What I love about reading an author's first novel - is seeing what s/he will write the second time around. I love Helen's writing and am confident that this first novel is only the beginning. To get published by Random House with a first novel...and go up to #12 on the NY Times best seller list - I believe she can do it again. Would love to find out how far along she is on the second book, and a clue as to what she is writing about... I'll let you know.
(Maryz- I promise to get a photo of Helen - one with both of us in the picture will depend on whether I can get someone to snap the picture - and whether I'm having a good hair day.) :D
Bella, since you have found the answer to your question, I'll focus on Laura's question tomorrow night-
Did she intend to have the lives of father and son parallel or did it just happen -
" I know authors often talk about characters taking on lives of their own, doing unexpected things, etc. I could see this parallelism being planned or being a pleasant surprise. I wonder which is was."
Gum - if it's true that H.S. had an eye on a movie contract as she wrote this, I'll bet the surprises just didn't happen... But do you really think she was thinking of this? It's only her first novel.
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Gumtree, I suspect H.S. did not have an idea when she was writing this it would be considered a movie. From the interview I have read, she was a bit surprised at how much her first book took off and became so popular. I especially like this part of her interview:
Q. What motivated you to pursue writing at this point in your life?
A. "Being a stay-at-home mom is a 24/7 job with very little time off for good behavior! It's been at once the most wonderful experience of my life and the most demanding. Between the baby gym classes, wiping up apple juice, and trying to ensure both sons learned Latin and piano by kindergarten (I'm joking!), I was ready for some small intellectual and creative escape. When modern dance and gardening failed to satisfy (I have two left feet and I hate weeding), I turned to a writing class. Beginner Fiction at New York's 92nd Street Y saved my sanity,"
This does not come over to me as a writer intending anything more than self satisfaction and hope that others will like her work. I think its movie material because its so descriptive and relatable. Her characters are so real to life and the little town Edgecombe St. Mary is painted so vividly in the novel that it makes the reader want to be there. Any good producer would want to bring this book to the big screen.
Does anyone else have this interview in the back of their book or is this a special feature my nook provides, because all of the books I have purchased and downloaded into my nook seem to have these type of interviews in the back of the book.
JoanP, I will be thinking of you and wishing I were there in the room with you and our fine author. Please come back and share with us. Have a great time!
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Bellamarie, my trade paperback has the same interview.
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May 5. One More Page - a tiny new bookstore in Arlington, VA
I arrived five minutes late - parking was a problem. Because of large turnout, time was spent trying to gather chairs for everyone. Finally, they gave up - standing room only, people were lucky to get in the door.
And there was Helen way up front, speaking of the "vagaries of the publishing world." She described a book talk last week in NYC - the president of Random House was there - she listed a few other important people who were with him...and the EIGHT people who showed up to hear her speak and have books signed. She wished they could have seen the crowd (200?) in Arlington. Her husband was there too - laughing at her description of life as an "established author."
She laughs at herself...a really droll sense of humor. She seemed surprised at some of things we laughed at - as if she didn't understand why we were laughing. (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/majorpettigrew/photosimonson.JPG)
Helen Simonson - smiling eyes
She wrote the book as part of a Masters' Program in creative writing. Started writing shorter pieces for magazine publication, until one day, she wrote a piece on the Major...who was instantly loved by her class - and her professor. They all loved the Major - seemed to know him better than she did. He seemed to take on a life of his own that day, and everyone wanted to hear more. So she began to write about him, 20 pages for each class assignment, until it became clear after a while, that she was writing a novel.
The novel took FIVE YEARS TO WRITE - probably would have taken longer, but when the economy collapsed, it was time to stop the writing and get a proper job. Quickly she finished the book - the last EIGHT CHAPTERS she wrapped up in 6 weeks. Frankly, she said, she didn't care any more - got tired of the Major and his inability to act.. When the time had come to get the book done, and the Major refused to come up with an ending,she ORDERED him to do something. She would have liked to end it on the cliffs, but had trouble ending there. (The Epilogue had been written earlier, so she knew how it would end.)
She revelled in her rejection letters that began, "Dear Writer".. Felt she now had a title. This was much better than "Dear Housewife." You learn to live with rejection - it's a way of life, she said. But after many rejection letters, I think she said 30, she heard from an agent with Random House and from then on, her life changed. Shortly after it was published and she was told she was booked for a book tour, which was "simply exhausting, brutal" - five star hotels, chauffeurs, restaurants, nail salons..."brutal" She said she felt like a combination of Cinderalla and Pretty Woman - as if she had won the Literary Lottery.
About her characters -
Everyone is made up. Characters just pop into her head, little snippets stored away, but none based on a real person. Once in her writing class in a short story, she did describe real people - who didn't recognize themselves!
She said the Major isn't based on anyone at all. She said that she has never described him, so that any number of people could play his role and still look like him - she has given no physical characteristics. She will not be writing the screenplay for the movie. Will leave that to people who are experienced bringing literary works to film.
The Pakistanis...she started out researching until she became overwhelmed. Participated in message boards on-line with young Muslim people. She tried to give the Pakistanis the same problems everyone struggles with - especially class.
She mentioned little George - said she was pleased with the group who picked up on the fact that George was the Patron Saint of England - and that her George represented the future of England. (That would be our group)
Her favorite character was Roger; he is an apology to her own parents. ....He is made up of all the terrible things she ever said to her parents. He represents the worst in all of us. The more outrageous he became, the more she laughed. It became difficult to make him three-dimensional.
The question on the parallels between the Major and his son came up...was it planned, or was it a surprise. I had that one question typed up and in my hand from our group, ready to ask her. Someone else asked and her reply was "you must be from that SeniorLearn group who has been dogging me for an answer to that question." I called out from the back - "that was us, but we really weren't dogging you"...We really weren't - we just asked the question- twice. Was that "dogging?" Helen turned to me and laughed and went on to say that it wasn't an easy question to answer. She said you really shouldn't plan something like that. You just toss in all of the ingredients...into a big bowl of spahetti and meatballs only without the bowl, and hope it all takes shape. I'm not describing this as well as she did, but I think our question was answered. Helen was right, there isn't an easy answer to that one. When you work out and understand the character, the parallels will appear, even without planning.
Her next book - she is "morally opposed to sequels." Those characters should be allowed to rest in peace. Her New Characters are waiting for her, standing with bus tickets in hand, waiting for her to signal when they can get going.
I'm really looking forward to her next book - and relieved that we will see new characters from this talented writer.
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Fabulous Joan - I am so pleased you gave us a picture of the event - interesting that the folks in New York were not as thrilled with the book as other areas - I wonder why? Well we certainly enjoyed it and could relate to the characters - and so that dry quiet humor is the style of Helen herself - wonderful because I bet we can look forward to that same light humor poking into every subject matter even those that are serious.
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Wonderful report, JoanP. And now we know what YOU look like, too. ::)
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Great pic JoanP I see more than one set of 'smiling eyes'
Sounds like it was a bookie night to remember - I could use a little of the 'brutal' - 5 star hotels, restaurants etc ....
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Great summary, Joan! Thank you for getting my question answered!
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Thanks for taking the time to go and to give us such a great report, JoanP.
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Joan,. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE all her responses. She sounds like she could be any one of us aspiring writers and it gives me such hope and anticipation to continue to persue my writing. The rejection she speaks of is my biggest fear although a few of my works have been graciously accepted and put in print, I still have a long way to go.
I was about to leave out the door to go out to dinner with my hubby and just happened to see the email and am so glad I took the time to open it. Joan you must have been so excited to meet H.S. and get a pic with her. I have to share with all of you I went to the Tim Magraw concert and he was inches from me, smiled into my video camera and took my hand three times as he reached out into the audience in response to our squeals. Oh at my age I felt like a screaming teen when the Beatles were famous. lolol Now to come in and see not only our Joan with Helen, but that she actually mentioned our group I have to say its pure joy!!
Happy Mother's Day to all our mothers in our group!
Ciao for now~
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Many thanks, JoanP, for that outstanding report. It was really good to read.
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Thank you all! I just wish you could have been there - or that I had thought to record Helen's remarks - she is SO funny - in that British way - in that Major Pettigrew way, perhaps.
All good things must come to an end. At the end of the day, this discussion will find its way to our Archives - and a Readers' Guide will be available on the web. Before signing off here, I would like to thank Barbara for her outstanding leadership and all of you for your many contributions - oh, and Helen Simonson for writing this delightful novel. Needless to say, we are all looking forward to her next adventure!
You'll find this discussion in the SeniorLearn Archives!