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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
Beginning on Nov. 1
Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/remarkablecover2.jpg) | In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis. To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.
Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This is the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day. |
| DISCUSSION SCHEDULE: | November 1-8 Chapters 1-3
November 9-15 Chapters 4-5 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/ammonite.jpg) |
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SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 1-3
1. The first sentence of the novel is, “Lightning has struck me all my life.” What did you expect after reading that? What does Mary mean?
2. What attracts Mary to fossil hunting? How is it different from Elizabeth’s motivation?
3. How would you characterize the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth—mother/daughter, sisters, or something else?
4. On page 39 Elizabeth says, “After little more than a year in Lyme I’d come to appreciate the freedom a spinster with no male relatives about could have there.” Why is that? What did “freedom” mean for a woman of the time? Who had more freedom—Elizabeth or Mary?
These are from Lit Lovers Online.
Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4019.0); Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJEbfYNh9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCiJEbfYNh9E); The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG);
DLs: AdoAnnie (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com), Marcie (marciei@aol.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Welcome to our latest and greatest book discussion. I have found this a most interesting title and story where our author deals with History and Herstory in a most unusual manner. I thought the ladies were the "Remarkable Creatures" but of course, what they searched for were "Remarkable Creatures" also.
So, do you think the quote from Mary Annning is MYTH or TRUTH? I did read that the lightening striking Mary story was a popular myth in Lyme Regis but I think it might be true.
What does it mean to "lead with one's eyes"? or hands or feet??? This was Elizabeth's take on Mary Anning.
I did find a sketch of Mary Anning's home and workshop where she sold her 'curies' that is pretty nice-
The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG)
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"Lightning has struck me all my life.” What did you expect after reading that?
Is it a quote from the the real Mary - or was it Tracy Chevalier's Mary speaking? She's done a fantastic job, mingling fact, fleshing out the characters. don't you think?
I can't get over how those Philpot sisters resemble Jane's Austen's Elliot sisters in Persuasion - to a point. We know Jane visited Lyme Regis before she wrote of the Elliot girls. Did she (Jane A) actually meet Mary Anning when in Lyme? We know she visited Mary A's father, the cabinetmaker on that visit. Could she have met Elizabeth Philpot and her sisters too?
What do you all think? Are you enjoying this fictionalized account of an historical event?
After reading the quote - “Lightning has struck me all my life,” I expect that Mary means her life was not easy after the first strike. Is Tracy Chevalier preparing us for controversy ahead? Or some amazing force of nature, maybe? Another lightning strike? ;) No really, I've read of people who have been struck by lightning several times...they seem to attract such strikes.
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I was caught by how young she and her sisters were to be considered old maids - looks like the younger sister kicked up her heals for a bit but did not play the game to nab a fellow for marriage. At least the brother allowed them to chose the town they would live - not as commercial as those on the west side of Britain nor very far north so that winter would be a handicap - and someplace like Bath would mean keeping up with the Jones' - I wonder what her older sister was able to grow in her garden by the sea.
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Wouldn't you love to spend a summer like that, Barb? Moving from beach town to beach town to decide which "feels" like home? A great way to pick a retirement community, no?
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Never thought of that but you are right - what a perfect idea - almost like taking your kids from college to college so they can decide.
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Marking my spot.
Sally
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Tra la... Found what I was curious about - the cottage that Elizabeth and her sisters lived in - found this tid bit that set me on the correct course -
"Elizabeth Philpot and her sisters lived at Morley Cottage on Silver St. (now the Mariner’s Hotel)."
Voila the Mariner Hotel, home of the Philpot sisters
(http://images.travelnow.com/hotels/4000000/3310000/3303700/3303627/3303627_7_b.jpg)
Here is one of the bedrooms.
(http://exp.cdn-hotels.com/hotels/4000000/3310000/3303700/3303627/3303627_10_b.jpg)
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Okay, so again, I feel like I am asking a silly question, but here it goes....Are the characters real life people, who lived back in this era, or are they characters TC has created? I realize the places are real, such as the towns, buildings etc. But why was I thinking TC created these characters from her own mind? I also noticed how in one chapter Mary Anning is the narrator. speaking from the past, then you have Elizabeth as the narrator. So in other words, this is a story that is set in the past, and they are telling it as they lived it. Do you suppose it will bring us up to date, to where they will be in the immediate future?
Just a bit confused?
Thank you for the pictures, I always love visuals, to get me more acquainted, and helps personalize things.
Ciao for now~
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Both women were real people.. but the author has mixed it up so closely.. I think that Elizabeth is by far the freer person in many ways. Mary is very far down the social scale and that makes her life harder.
There is always the worry about food, shelter.
I dont understand the leading thing.. with you eye or nose or some such.. Anyone getting me clear..
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The houses are interesting. There is a big social gulf between Mary and Elizabeth, but, to my untrained eye, the houses look similar.
Of course, Elizabeth and her sisters are "gentry" i.e. they have the status of the upper class, but not the money. Thus they must keep up a "genteel" way of life without the finances to support it. Their house was quite modest.
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This hotel is Morley House? Its too big by Elizabeth's description. I am thinking that there has been more added on over the years.
Here's our author talking about the book and Lyme Regis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh4wz-trFxI
And TC at the Lyme Regis Museum:
http://www.lymeregismuseum.co.uk/in-the-museum/tracy-chevalier
I also found a picture of Chesil Beach with a foot shown so that you can see how the beach looks. Its much nicer than the Lyme Regis beach. Not sure that anyone was fossil hunting when we were there.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Chesil_Stones_with_shoe_for_scale.JPG
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yes I must say it is nice to have a visual to help center me; when my mind does the visual often find my self left when confronting the 'real' down the road, so thank you Barb
interesting how the women actually Mary is 11 here and Elizabeth about 25, so youngster and young woman; though Mary seems older with all she has had to cope with in her life, father dying, helping financially to put food on the table; and then again Elizabeth seems older, not with any gaiety one might expect of a mid-twenties person, but then she and her sisters consider themselves poor on the comparison of their lives in London under their father....not sure what the life expectancy is here during this time of the Napoleon's wars
admire Elizabeth for having the initiative to say to herself 'must find something to do rather than sit around and mope and feel exiled and nothing to live for', and 'fossils' become her passion
bookad
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Anne it appears to me from the roof lines it is two buildings that are now attached making this hotel - they may have combined two houses is what I am thinking but it is the address given for the cottage - If it is two houses then the question which side was the Philpot cottage - looking closely the building on the left appears to have a plaque next to the door but with out finding the tax roles we can only guess if these were two buildings now one hotel. However, several sites give the address for Morley Cottage on Silver St. and say it is now the Mariner hotel. I just looked to be sure and in Lyme Regis or in the area there is no other Mariner Hotel nor is there another Silver St. with a hotel.
Since this story took place 200 years ago when Jane Austen was traveling to Lyme I can only imagine the city or town or village has grown with many changes and more houses. Reminds me of visiting a pre-revolutionary war church in New York City surrounded by towering office buildings and trying to imagine how it looked and its setting in the countryside during the seventeenth century.
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Barb, I think we are right about the building and you did say this is the right address. Don't you like all these links that are available about fossil hunting. They are right down to learning how to break a stone apart to look at an ammonite. Amazing!
Mary Anning was just a young sprite when her father started her and her brother, Joseph learning to fossil hunt and identify. He must have sensed that they north had the eye.
Its hard to see how women were so dependent on the men in their lives to support them. They took it for granted that the man would always be there. Poor Molly Anning sure had a harsh bumping into reality when her husband died. She seemed to be able to handle the business though. What a surprise that is to Elizabeth Philpot. Me,too!
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What attracts Mary to fossil hunting? How is it different from Elizabeth’s motivation?
I get the sense, Mary is drawn to fossil hunting by nature, it is in her soul. Whether it was the lightning striking her as a baby, or if it was her father, brother and mother raising her to look and appreciate fossils, she does it like we breathe each day. Yes, it is a means to help with the income, but I feel she would do it even if she were not so poor.
Elizabeth has made fossil hunting a pastime, something she needs to fill her time, although she is very educated about fossils, and with her new friend Mary, she has someone who she can share this hobby with. She is older than Mary, so she can help her with organizing and learning the proper names. Mary doing this all her years of life, can teach Mary what is and is not a fossil, and the best times, and places to find them.
Ciao for now~
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I agree about Morley cottage and how it became almost unrecognizable with the add-ons over the years. In our own neighborhood, there are so many renovations to the older homes that we wish we had taken photos of the old houses before the work was done. Have lived in the same house for 37 years and the changes in the neighborhood blot out memories of how they used to live. (our house still looks the same!) ;)
Did you catch Chevalier's wry description of that little two-bedroom house?..."a ladies' home - the size of a lady's character and expectations."
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I didn't understand about leading with eyes, eyebrows, hands, either, Steph - although I do understand how some people are able to see things, notice things, better than others. They seem to know where to look, or to focus. Is that what we are to understand about Mary Anning?
Chevalier picked up on her reputation in Lyme Regis as the "lightening girl." The local lore had it that Mary was said to be brighter because of the lightning strike. I wonder if that was before or after her ability to find things was recognized? Maybe the myth came about because Mary not only survived the lightning strike, but her brains were not addled, she was able to function as a normal person in spite of it. Wasn't she a mere baby when struck? How does one compare her intelligence before or after the strike?
I'm not sure she would have been into fossils had her father not taught her what to look for, Bella. The question is - did Richard Anning value the fossils for anything more than the price they would bring from the fossil collectors?
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Mary and her father seemed to have a passion, that also made money, since Mary had to sell the valuable fossils, but really wanted to keep and hold them.l Elizabeth as far as I can figure did not sell any of hers.. but then she was only interested in fish.. I really marvel as to the seamless merging of true and fiction in this book.
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I agree that the whole Mariner Hotel is too big to be the Philpot's cottage. I vote for the part on the right in the picture, because it has a room under the eaves.
It...had a parlor, dining room, and kitchen on the ground floor, with two bedrooms above as well as a room in the eaves for our servant...
I wouldn't mind having that bedroom. It has a wonderfully cosy look (probably really icy cold) and a great view, and since I'm pretty short, I wouldn't bang my head on the ceiling.
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I think I get what Elizabeth means, when she says the different ways people lead, with different parts of their body. I have a tendency to people watch. When I sit at say like a mall, and study people, I can see that some lead with their brows, when they have an emotion or thought, they don't necessarily express, but their brow goes up or down. I see the reaction clearly in people's brows, or eyes, leg movement, nose, arms, etc. etc. Someone who leads with their nose, now I think that could mean they are keen to the scents around them, or they could be a bit snooty. Mouth could mean you see their reactions with how they move their mouth, and taste could factor in. I so can see someone leading with their mouth, especially when they are nervous. I see any part of the body could be recognized in how a person leads and perceives life. Now a baby is so evident, because their natural reactions when stimulated is to use all parts of their body, eyes brighten up, mouth tries to form words, legs wriggle, arms flay, nose wrinkles, feet kick, brows frow, and oh their little hearts just bursts with joy! We always could tell how our little grand daughter was excited, before she ever expressed a sound, her little arms would extend, and her wrists would twist like little pinwheels. I know I lead with my eyes. ::)
People give more away with their body parts, in expressing their thoughts or feelings, than I think they realize. I've watched shows that have experts who are body analysts, and they can tell a person's thoughts and feelings, through the way they hold or move their body parts. Especially if they are not telling the truth, or are uncomfortable. They are able to distinguish a person who is a leader, follower, pacifier, shy, introvert, extrovert, submissive, etc., etc. I love studying people, especially politicians, when they speak, because their body gives away more than their words.
PatH., I too, like the little bedroom. I grew up in a house with slanted ceilings in our bedrooms, and they were small and cozy, and very cold.
Ciao for now~
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to me it sounded like an idyllic life, nice home, wonderful view, servant to do housework, wandering the beaches, and so on ...... for the ?? down and out London girls now in their new home village , ++ no husband demanding of attentions as Margaret would have been slated for had not her boyfriend been overwhelmed by 'her family' and background
bookad
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Actually when you think about it Mary had more responsibility for her life than Elizabeth - financial responsibilities forces Mary to be more pragmatic and more focused on skills that will earn her an income. Therefore her skill is developed finding what she can sell to tourists where Elizabeth can afford to keep her finds to display at home.
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ah which of the two houses - too bad there is no clear closeup - both houses seem to have been altered - the further away from London the less the house would resemble what we think of as early eighteenth century use of building techniques.
First there is no way anyone in this price range house could afford these massive windows like we see in the photo of the bedroom and the upper windows in the long house on the left. Both had to have been replaced along the way. Crown glass was just reaching the builders The expense of crown glass was beyond the reach of most, so casement windows with leaded glazing remained very common throughout the seventeenth and much of the eighteenth centuries. Leaded glass was heavy - the thickness of window frames was to support the thick and heavy glass; A typical window was divide into as many as sixteen panes in the upper sash and twenty in the lower. It was only well into the eighteenth century and late eighteenth century in areas further from London that windows were 6 pane over 6 pane which was the Georgian style.
I remember being fascinated by the thatch roofed homes during visits to England and looked it up to be sure - something about laws in the late 1700s about the construction of windows. Originally windows were framed on the outside of the house - look at your window and you can see a brick or outside edge of the house that stops and a recess accommodates the window that is flush with the inside walls - the wood box that the window frame is attached to is inside the wall of the house - this is called a concealed box - that way of constructing a window was mandated by law in England in 1774.
Clearly both houses have the window box exposed as if sitting on the stone rather than attached to some inner frame.
Earlier in 1709 there was a law that said, the box the window sat in, had to be inside by four inches rather than flush with the outside of the building. Both houses appear to have window casings either flush or outside the walls of the outside of the house.
The bigger house on the right may even have original windows in the upstairs attic room they do have 16 panes to a lower sash but that upper is difficult to see. If you look at the roof you can see the right house is deeper and a larger house where as, the older house that in its day was probably a thatch roofed house typical of the sixteenth and seventeenth century, would only be one room deep where as, the house on the right would have a ridge beam in the middle to accommodate the angle of that big roof - (a roof is all the beams and braces that hold the shingles that we see and call a roof) with rooms on either side of the ridge beam so at minimum it would be two rooms deep on the main level with no room running from front to back without extra interior beams that could accommodate a large opening with short walls.
We cannot see a loft bedroom in addition to the two upstairs bedrooms in the long house on the left but then there could be a loft near a chimney with a small window facing the side of the structure. Having been in a hotel in Rye that was more than one house added to another with all the ups and downs or crazy stairs it is difficult to determine from the outside the number or location of rooms. But it is clear the photo of the bedroom has modern windows and appears it must be facing the rear of a house - which building we do not know.
Here is a photo of a typical 2 bedroom seventeenth century cottage that even on this the windows were changed out to 6X6 pane sashes that would not have existed when the house was built.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/April_Cottage_Little_Thetford_13-10-2006.jpg)
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How interesting about the windows. I never would have thought about the glass being heavy.
I love the video of our author fossil hunting in Lyme (address repeated below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh4wz-trFxI
I went to the beach yesterday, as I do once a week. There were kids, picking up shells. I wonder if the urge to do that is universal?
I was picking up kelp. Southern California is one of only two (I believe) places on earth where kelp forests grow. In a minute, I had found five different species. But no fossils, that I know of (fossilized kelp?)
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Were you collecting the kelp? What do you use it for? I never picked up any shells on Torrance Beach. I don't remember ever seeing anything but sand on that beach and kelp. Tee hee!
Barb, what interesting research on the cottages in the 1700's.
I also did a little research on the population of Lyme Regis now and in 1821. The early numbers were around 1000 people and in 2011, there were 4000 citizens. This is not counting the tourists in the summer who rent beach houses for a week or two. Its a popular little town.
The reason that I put up the picture of Chesil Beach is that is what it looks like now and its also a very popular place to spend time nearby in the summer. Its also near Lyme Regis.
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The first time I was in England; I was surprised at the rocky beaches. I was used to seeing sand, not rocks. Wouldn't you find it hard to walk along those rocky beaches? I know I would not attempt it now; but maybe I would have when I was younger and in better shape. I am sorry that I was not aware of the fossils when we were in Lyme Regis.
Sally
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I love the story, but have no desire to collect the fossils.. This leading with stuff still escapes me. But I do know that for our whole married life, my husband could be walking along and boom.. bend over and pick up a penny or dime.. etc. So I would guess he led with his eyes.
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Salan,
Although we had a historian who guided our tours of SW England, I don't remember him mentioning the famous fossils of Lyme Regis when he took us there. And when I see these pictures of those beaches on the videos that we link to, I am put off by the roughness of them.
When Mary agreed to follow Joseph down to the beach to see what he had found and it turned out to be the first icthiosaurus ever found, I was amazed. Was she lucky that Elizabeth Philpot appeared and offered to find someone to dig it out and carry it to the Anning shop.
That this discovery of ancient animals will change the way religion looks at the age of the world seems so strange to me. I always thought that the finding of dinosaurs and ichthyosaurs had been happening for hundreds of years before the 180o's. I didn't know that most people in the world at that time thought that the world was only 6000 years old.
Steph, I think there are folks who are more aware of seeing things or they are always searching for strange findings on the ground. I have a brother like that.
and his name is Joseph!
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Sally, "Wouldn't you find it hard to walk along those rocky beaches?"
It was very difficult for me, when I attempted to walk on a beach with my shoes on, at our famous Put in Bay, here in Ohio. The rocks were so slippery, I could not find my footing. Thank goodness my hubby and a friend caught me before I went down. They also almost lost their balance, due to the slippery rocks. I tried walking barefoot, along the beach where the water was shallow, and it hurt my feet so much so, I could not continue to walk. I can't imagine these ladies in their long puffy dresses and lady style shoes back in Lyme Regis walking along these rocks. Not to mention when the tide comes in, the added difficulty, keeping your balance.
Ciao for now~
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Do you remember how we wondered how the ladies in Persuasion were able to climb those rocks and walk the beaches of stones and pebbles of Lyme Regis? What sort of footwear did they have?
Did you notice Elizabeth Philpot's comment about that very thing? ".... the stoney beach was difficult to walk on in thin pumps"
Not only that, but the ladies walked on the beach in those long gowns - hats and bonnets, too. So much for long, pleasant, leisurely walks on the shore. What did you wear, Steph?
Here's a portrait of a somewhat older Mary, painted in 1842. How old would that make her at the time? Look at the cumbersome outfit!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Mary_Anning_painting.jpg)
1842, for exhibition at the Royal Academy, but rejected. The portrait includes the fossil cliffs of Lyme Bay in the background. Mary is pointing at an ammonite, with her companion Tray dutifully curled beside the ammonite protecting the find. The portrait eventually became the property of Joseph, Mary‟s brother, and in 1935, was presented to the Geology Department, British Museum, by Mary‟s great-great niece Annette Anning (1876-1938). The portrait is now in the Earth Sciences Library, British Museum of Natural History. A similar portrait in pastels by B.J.M. Donne, hangs in the entry hall of the Geological Society of London. Reproduced with the permission of the British Museum of Natural History (London).
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I noticed in the video of the author that she wore "wellies" (rubber boats) when she was walking on the beach. When we stayed with friends in England; the hostess has a number of wellies by the back door. Did they wear wellingtons back in the day of Mary Anning?? It was probably not accepted attire for ladies.
Sally
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With so many button hooks from the eighteen hundreds available at most antique stores and from what we can see in photos it appears the buttons shoe was worn for every day - sometimes the buttons were to the side and only later were shoe laces used - pumps as we know them were for dancing.
This is a nice collection of information about nineteenth century shoes from of course a Jane Austen site
http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/2010/10/16/fashionable-shoes-of-the-18th-and-19th-century-and-how-they-were-made/
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JoanP, when I looked here this afternoon, you had posted a link to an article that had the portrait of Mary Anning in it. Now you have given us a picture of the portrait, without the link. I'm going to re-post the link, because it's exactly the sort of information I was about to search for:
OOPS, SPOILER! JoanP points out that if you don't know Mary Anning's history, this site may tell you more than you want to know about what's coming up.
http://digitalcommons.csbsju.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=compass (http://digitalcommons.csbsju.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=compass)
The article itself is dry enough that probably only a paleontology nut like me would want to read it all (yes, I did, every word). It's a justification for including Anning, as a representative of women, in the ritual of a no doubt tiresome geologic society. But scroll down and look at the pictures. After the portrait, there is a map of the location of Jurassic strata in England. Lyme Regis is just on the edge of the bottom tip. Then there are pictures of some of the important fossils, including the famed ichthyosaur, a commemorative plaque and stained glass windows, her tombstone, etc.
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I was thinking of the cold blustery day that Ann and her brother went to the beach to see his 'find' taking the young baby......thought that was hard enough on the baby, but carrying the baby over rocks of the sort in the picture and then climbing the cliff or hill with baby in arm!!!!
I too was visualizing nice flat beaches with every so feet a line in the sand of tides accumulations including fossils.......
bookad
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One of the important points buried in that text is that Anning had two strikes against her in being taken seriously. Not only was she a woman, but she was lower class. No one would think such a person could have any significant ideas in such a field, the hobby of educated gentlemen.
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Bookad, I like to hope that the excursion didn't contribute to the baby's early death. Given the high mortality rate of the children (only three of the nine or so survived) it didn't stand much chance anyway.
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I love the descriptive writing in the book and the way that the author uses phrases such as "leads with her eyes (jaw, hands, etc)" to describe the characters. I've heard the phrase "lead with his chin" about something boxers should NOT do if they don't want to get knocked out but I'm thinking that Chevalier might have created the way she is using the phrase. I see it as the physical attribute that is most "active" on the person and the one that people would notice first.
Elizabeth thinks that you can't change the trait that you lead with. She would love to lead with her eyes, the way that Mary does. Perhaps there is a possibility that her relationship with Mary will allow her to change. There may be a hint of that, in the last sentence, when Elizabeth says: " I have longed to move from jaw to eye, but I have noticed that people do not change which feature they lead with, any more than they change in character. And so I am stuck with my strong jaw that puts people off, set in stone like the fossils I collect. Or so I have thought."
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I walked on the beach in Nice.. It is grey stones and most people wear a type of water shoe, that seems to grip. I cannot imagine how they managed with all those clothes. Yes, I really did wonder if Elizabeth really did come upon Mary and her brother and the huge discovery?? It is so hard to sort of the truth and fiction in the book. Does anyone know. It sounds as if she and Joseph were more likely to know the Daye family than Elizabeth.
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4. On page 39 Elizabeth says, “After little more than a year in Lyme I’d come to appreciate the freedom a spinster with no male relatives about could have there.” Why is that? What did “freedom” mean for a woman of the time? Who had more freedom—Elizabeth or Mary?
I think if the sisters were in the same town as their brother, there would be more restrictions of their comings and goings. Their activity would be more about going to balls to escort their younger sister, who would be looking to find someone to marry, or simply doing the social expectations. Being in Lyme without their brother, and really no other relatives to be obligated to, the girls can pretty much do as they please, as long as it's within the respectable realm. I can't imagine three sisters having this kind of freedom back in their era, being common. These sisters remind me of Louisa May Alcott's, March sisters in Little Women. The March sisters in Little Women were able to really have fun, going out and about with Lawry. They did not have a male relative to restrict them either, their father was gone out of town throughout most of the story fighting in the war. Elizabeth reminds me of Jo March, from Little Women, she was the more adventuresome one.
Elizabeth, by far has more freedom than Mary, at this point in the book. Mary has been expected to help with the store, with providing fossils for cash, to help provide for her family, and also had to take care of younger siblings, and from what it sounds like, the mother was having babies one after another. Obviously once her father dies, there will be no more babies to care for, and from what I can conjecture, all her younger siblings have died off, so there is only Mary and Joseph left to provide. Elizabeth pretty much has all the time in the day, to search the beaches for fossils.
Ciao for now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
Beginning on Nov. 1
Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/remarkablecover2.jpg) | In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis. To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.
Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This is the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day. |
| DISCUSSION SCHEDULE: | November 1-8 Chapters 1-3
November 9-15 Chapters 4-5 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/ammonite.jpg) |
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SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 1-3
1. The first sentence of the novel is, “Lightning has struck me all my life.” What did you expect after reading that? What does Mary mean?
2. What attracts Mary to fossil hunting? How is it different from Elizabeth’s motivation?
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3. How would you characterize the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth—mother/daughter, sisters, or something else?
4. On page 39 Elizabeth says, “After little more than a year in Lyme I’d come to appreciate the freedom a spinster with no male relatives about could have there.” Why is that? What did “freedom” mean for a woman of the time? Who had more freedom—Elizabeth or Mary?
These are from Lit Lovers Online.
Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4019.0); Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJEbfYNh9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCiJEbfYNh9E); The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG);
DLs: AdoAnnie (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com), Marcie (marciei@aol.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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there hope the link comes thru, haven't tried this before---am intregued by the 'bathing machine Margaret gets into and it says she was wheeled out into the water I think then would swim!! in the name of modesty
http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/bathing-machines-at-cleethorpes-in-victorian-times (http://www.rodcollins.com/wordpress/bathing-machines-at-cleethorpes-in-victorian-times)
Deb
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Deb...thanks for the site! I remember reading about the bathing machines in Jane Austen. Aren't Do you suppose everyone had them available? Even the Annings? If they couldn't afford it, what did they do? Stay out of the water? Is this another class differences we are discovering here, as well as modesty?
Margaret Philpot was treated to one of them when recovering from her broken engagement...well, broken near-engagement. ...They remind me of the individual beach cabanas on Long Island...but these take you right into the water - from dressing room to the water, complete privacy.
While searching for information on the bathing machines of Jane Austen's Regency period, I came across this...
"Regardless of their location in or out of the water, non-swimmers remained covered up. It is ironic that once in the water, so many men and women would swim completely naked, but there you have it: Seaside, Regency style. "http://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/tag/bathing-machines/
Steff, many years ago, many many years ago I spent one month of the summer in Nice. Was supposed to be studying the French novel, but spent more time on that beach! When were you there? We may have passed each other in our morning strolls.
In the 1960's, beach modesty was a thing of the past. The ladies strolled in the tiniest bikinis (not me, they laughed at my full coverage)...and the men, well the men wore the skimpiest suits...and I will never forget the first day on the beach...my friend and I spread our blankets and propped our beach bags up against the retaining wall. People were looking at us...laughing. We thought at our American bathing suits. Just as we were all set up for the afternoon at the beach, one man and then another came right to the wall next to us - and urinated! We weren't supposed to be there...packed up our stuff and left the beach for a day or so before returning- to another part of the beach, closer to the surf!
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PatH -Thanks for including that whole link. It is a gem. I thought it was going beyond the first three chapters, and might spoil it for those who don't know what's coming - although agree there are enough clues that this ain't just another "croc." ;)
"Not only was she a woman, but she was lower class. No one would think such a person could have any significant ideas in such a field, the hobby of educated gentlemen."
I'll add another strike agains Mary Anning in being taken seriously from the start. She was a child, an uneducated child at that. She had that mother of hers making all the decisions. Her mother resented Elizabeth Philpot, who could have helped Mary.
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I pooped out before finishing Pat's article: a shame, because the fossils are described at the end. Do page down to see picture of the actual fossils.
I was intrigued by this:
"Buckland‟s (1829a) description of sepia ink (fossil ink-bags) from belemnites were based on specimens from the Philpot Collection, and were actually discovered by Elizabeth Philpot and Mary Anning."
That implies they actually did hunt together?
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I have no idea what the bathing machine is all about. I'm guessing I will find out in the next coming chapters.
How would you characterize the relationship between Mary and Elizabeth—mother/daughter, sisters, or something else?
I see them as friends and mentors. They each have something to teach each other, where fossils are concerned. JoanP., you mentioned Mary's mother was resentful of Eliz. I must have missed that. But I can see it possible, since Eliz can seem a motherly figure in her eyes.
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Seems to me I read somewhere that this was the century of collecting, understanding and documenting the natural world - found this which must have been newsworthy to Elizabeth and Mary - unless I have my dates wrong this would have taken place while they were fossil hunting but after their big find.
DISCOVERY OF FOSSILS
Iguanodon was named by Gideon A. Mantell in 1825; its teeth and a few bones were found in 1822 (perhaps by Gideon Mantell's wife, Mrs Mary Mantell) in Sussex, (southern) England. Mantell recognized the similarity between Iguanodon's tooth and that of the modern iguana, except the Iguanodon's was much larger. Iguanodon was the second dinosaur fossil named, and Mantell named it Iguanodon, meaning "iguana tooth." Hundreds of Iguanodon fossils have been found around the world, especially in Belgium, England, Germany, North Africa, and the USA.
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Here we go another painting of bathing machines - just linked to your wonderful link JoanP on Regency beach wear and included are some bathing machines - loved the illustration of the squall - not sure I understand the satire of the Scarborough - looks like she is a baker pulling baked goods from an outdoor oven - not sure what we are to understand from the painting - it does appear strange as if a basement to a building was constructed showing the area built low protected from the wind.
Whoops modified this post I can see Deb has already found the wonderful painting and photo of Bathing Machines at Cleethorpe
(http://www.mcjazz.f2s.com/images/Men/Aberdeenshire,%20Aberdeen,%20The%20Beach%201920%27s.jpg)
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Deb and Barbara, Thanks very much for posting the info and pics of the bathing machines. I was trying to visualize one from the description. I'm still not sure how one swims in it. I guess you swim out the front "door" but stay near it so that people can't see you from the shore. Perhaps etiquette required that the machines not be lined up together in the water but staggered so that swimmers wouldn't see each other?
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I remember some years ago having a discussion about bathing machines and the information was that many did not swim but rather called it swimming when they really were treading water often holding on to the machine that was equipped with a trap door so you could lower yourself in the water rather than use the stairs to enter the water. Also, once changed to bathing attire after entering the bathing machine you swam away from the machine submerged except for you head and while swimming of course your arms. Maybe someone will find an article how these beach cabins on wheels were used by those who used the crawl stroke
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I think Elizabeth had more freedom than Mary. Elizabeth had financial freedom of a sort and no baby siblings and an ailing mother to take care of.
Mary gained her knowledge of fossils from her father. I think she was fascinated by them; but did not have the luxury of keeping them for herself. She had to sell them to put bread on the table.
Sally
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Chevalier described the bathing machines as "privies on wheels." They do look like outhouses, don't they? So we don't see bathers in the surf along the shore? Or surfers? Or do you think these machines were only for ladies - for their modesty?
Marcie, if they didn't swim, just treaded water, they would have appreciated the hot tub a century or two later, don't you think? I wonder when the bathing machines went out of style. The same time modesty went out? Did any of you who visited Lyme Regis see swimmers or surfers in the water? With all the rock, it really doesn't seem like a beach for swimmers...or sun bathers either for that matter.
Someone wondered how the women stood being on the beach with all those clothes on. I thought of you when I read that the best time for fossil collecting was the winter! No wonder!
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Sally, I agree - Elizabeth was free from financial worry, family obligations, male authority over her - PLUS she had the benefit of an education. Mary Anning had the eye, and was able to find the fossilized creatures in the rock, but it was Elizabeth who recognized what they were - or at least, what they were not.
She was educated and also had a strong interest in Natural History - which I thought was unusual for women at the time. I might be wrong, Pat? As soon as she saw Mary Anning's "croc" she remembered seeing a lizard in the British Museum, but that there were no crocodiles in England. She owns the French anatomist's book of drawings of animal skeletons - and Cuvier's crocodiles do not look like this...the big eye socket caught Elizabeth's attention. So what is this curie Mary Anning was unearthed?
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It is mentioned several times that Molly had three children who lived, but Joseph and Mary are the only two mentioned in the book.. Yes the amount of freedom is interesting and their brother must have been fairly free spirited to allow it.
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STEPH: "It is mentioned several times that Molly had three children who lived, but Joseph and Mary are the only two mentioned in the book."
Pat's link above says Joseph and Mary were the only children who lived. Perhaps the third is the baby mentioned, who later dies.
While I was reading the article, I missed the bathing machine quotes. I've never been too clear how they worked. In the photograph, they look like they would be impossible to get into.
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I have a feeling that the Philpot sisters were pushing the limits of how much freedom they could have and still be respectable. Their brother didn't interfere. To him they were probably just a problem to be solved, and as long as they were safely ensconced in Lyme, and not making trouble for him, he didn't care much what they did.
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ah and aren't Brits known for and pride themselves in their eccentricities - a bunch of old maids living on Silver Street in Lyme makes for a perfect tale of local eccentrics don't you think and as long as the go to church and do not revert to being witches all is well. ;)
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A big freedom Mary had that Elizabeth no longer had was her ability to attract a fellow and get married - in real life I think I read she did marry.
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Louis Agassiz was born in the canton of Fribourg, Switzerland... Having adopted medicine as his profession, he studied at the universities of Zürich, Heidelberg and Munich; while there he extended his knowledge of natural history, especially of botany.
In 1829 he received the degree of Doctor of Philosophy at Erlangen, and in 1830 that of doctor of medicine at Munich. Moving to Paris he fell under the tutelage of Alexander von Humboldt and Georges Cuvier, who launched him on his careers of geology and zoology respectively. Previously he had not paid special attention to the study of ichthyology, but it soon became the great focus of his life's work.
Before his first visit to England in 1834, the labors of Hugh Miller and other geologists brought to light the remarkable fish of the Old Red Sandstone of the northeast of Scotland. The strange forms of the Pterichthys, the Coccosteus and other genera were then made known to geologists for the first time. They formed the subject of a special monograph by Agassiz published in 1844–45.
Agassiz also made a name for himself as a man who could run a scientific department well. Under his care, the University of Neuchâtel soon became a leading institution for scientific inquiry... In 1837 Agassiz was the first to scientifically propose that the Earth had been subject to a past ice age
He was the only person to name a species after Mary Anning during her lifetime.
In the early 1840s he named two fossil fish species after her—Acrodus anningiae, and Belenostomus anningiae—and another after her friend, Elizabeth Philpot. Agassiz was grateful for the help the women had given him in examining fossil fish specimens during his visit to Lyme Regis in 1834
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I got the distinct impression that the creature unearthed was a type of dinasaur.
Sally
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Sally, it seems that Elizabeth Philpot is beginning to agree with you, though she is not sharing her thoughts with anyone else. One thing she does know - this skull is not the crocodile she sees pictured in Cuvier's book of drawings. Skull is huge...4 ft. Came up in three sections! If not a crocodile, then what can it be?
The idea of dinosaurs...and extinction is not accepted...or even suspected at this time, is it? Has anyone kept track of the year the skull was found? I'm guessing all those scientists Barb posted above were writing shortly after this - but not sure.
Am going to look up Cuvier...and his book Elizabeth is studying so closely.
ps Barbara - I hope you're right about Mary Anning marrying. She seems such a sweet girl, not expecting much out of life...beyond unearthing fossils!
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PatH., I have the same feeling about the freedom we are seeing with the Philpot sisters. The three of them living together, and coming and going as they please, does seem a bit of a stretch for that era. Maybe that is the fiction part of the book.
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Mary Anning. I cannot imagine her marrying, but then,, I canot see why the youngest of Elizabeths sisters could not find a suitable mate. Perhaps she fell in the hole between poor and respectable.
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Here's an interesting little tidbit from a bio of Mary:
Lady Harriet Silvester, the widow of the former Recorder of the City of London, visited Lyme in 1824, and described Anning in her diary:(/b)
The extraordinary thing in this young woman is that she has made herself so thoroughly acquainted with the science that the moment she finds any bones she knows to what tribe they belong. She fixes the bones on a frame with cement and then makes drawings and has them engraved… It is certainly a wonderful instance of divine favour—that this poor, ignorant girl should be so blessed, for by reading and application she has arrived to that degree of knowledge as to be in the habit of writing and talking with professors and other clever men on the subject, and they all acknowledge that she understands more of the science than anyone else in this kingdom.(/font)
Am looking for another quote which really gives Mary much applause and she was really so young to have all this knowledge at her fingertips.
Here it is:
In 1823, an article in The Bristol Mirror said of her:
This persevering female has for years gone daily in search of fossil remains of importance at every tide, for many miles under the hanging cliffs at Lyme, whose fallen masses are her immediate object, as they alone contain these valuable relics of a former world, which must be snatched at the moment of their fall, at the continual risk of being crushed by the half suspended fragments they leave behind, or be left to be destroyed by the returning tide: – to her exertions we owe nearly all the fine specimens of Ichthyosauri of the great collections …
To me, the amazing story of Mary Anning is that she taught herself about the fossils she found. If I understand our book, Elizabeth Philpot, taught her a lot also from reading many books by naturalists.
Here's quite an interesting ad for the Lyme Regis Fossil Festival. Fossils have certainly brought a lot of people and interest in fossils to this small town. Do click on Programme and Galleries to see what goes on at this festival. I am sure Mary Anning and her family wouldn't believe what they brought to the history of the Jurassic Area of SW England.
http://www.fossilfestival.com
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Here's another good link if one wants to view the Lyme Regis Museum
http://www.lymeregismuseum.co.uk
And the Lyme Regis Philpot Museum
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g315962-d297113-Reviews-Lyme_Regis_Philpot_Museum-Lyme_Regis_Dorset_England.html
And here's the history of a Bindon Landslip in 1839
http://www.lymeregismuseum.co.uk/in-the-museum/136-The%20Bindon%20Landslip%20of%201839
This is an amazing record of a phenomenal landslip! Huge!
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I found this wonderful site that talks about Jane Austen living in Lyme Regis and meeting Mary Anning's father. Scroll down and it also has a great deal of information about Mary Anning and Elizabeth Philpot. I loved seeing this little piece of information:
She (Mary Anning) was even the basis of Terry Sullivan's 1908 tongue twister, "She sells seashells," according to P.J. McCartney in Henry de la Beche (1978):[66]
She sells seashells on the seashore
The shells she sells are seashells, I'm sure
So if she sells seashells on the seashore
Then I'm sure she sells seashore shells
This link has most of Marry Anning's bio, so if you don't want to know things about her future finds, etc. hold off looking at it.
http://austenonly.com/category/lyme-regis/
Steph, You are correct, as far as Mary, never marrying. I never found anything that indicated she married and had children. I think it's safe to say, she was married to her fossil hunting.
Ciao for now~
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Wouldn't it be more fun if we all could attend next May the Fossil Festival in Lyme - Great links -
I wonder why if the museum is built either in the same spot or using the building that was Mary Anning's home why in the world have they continued to name the museum the Elizabeth Philpot museum - I can understand back even as late as the 1950s class distinction so that folks would never have given it a second thought but come on - no one in the last 20 years could figure out the museum should have both names.
Bellamarie your link is to a page that is so complete with so many related facts and graphics - got lost in it for an hour.
There are certainly more sites that seem to be written independently rather than simply a copy of other's research and they all agree she did not marry - I would have to go back into my copious online history to find the site with the remark about a marriage but I am happy to learn from more sites that agree she stayed a single women.
One of the sites that blew me away with a very close inspection of her life was Wikipedia - here it is another good resource.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Anning
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Sally now you have me curious - what is the difference between a sea creature and a dinosaur - were they on the earth during the same time - is it saying that this part of the Jurassic area of England was under water and so these sea creatures are found - how in the world did the area become so high with cliffs if it was one time a part of the sea and England was two separate land masses. I thought Jurassic only referred to a time frame not the make up of the land -
Pat do you know any of the background on this swath of land the the time frame of these extinct animals - my research showed that the first dinosaur was discovered in Suffolk some dozen or so years later than the Joseph/Mary Anning find.
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You all really know how to tie up my evening by getting me to follow up links. Thanks for all of those good links.
Barb--dinosaurs are a branch of reptiles, mostly land livers, who died out in the era after the Jurassic. Ichthyosaurs are also reptiles, closely related to dinosaurs. They returned to the sea in the same way that dolphins, who are mammals, returned to the sea, and the two have a lot of similarities. Ichthyosaurs died out a little before the dinosaurs. The other sea creatures we have seen so far are invertebrates who were around for a long time, though I think we will later see some more reptiles.
Until now, I knew zero about the geology of the Jurassic in England. This area must have been underwater then to have ichthyosaurs. Layers get reshuffled over time, so you get fossil seashells on mountaintops from land rising, and places where you can see how layers are folded when continental masses collide.
Reading the various links, I am getting a feel for Mary Anning's instinctive grasp of what she was dealing with, and a strong sense of frustration at the limitations that her gender and class imposed on her. I wonder what she would have done without such restrictions.
For the nerdy, here is a link to ichthyosaurs.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/ichthyosauria.html (http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/ichthyosauria.html)
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Barb, I too got lost on that site today, for a very long time. I was suppose to be doing lesson planning and progress reports, and lost track of time at that site, because it does have so much on all topics pertaining to this book. The only thing I will NOT allow myself to do, is get caught up with these fossils and creatures. While its interesting, I'm just not that into the creatures, I am more interested in the people and the places. I would LOVE to travel to Lyme Regis!!
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PatH: It does seem so very wrong that 'class' & 'sex' could play such limiting restrictions with a life. Mary A. was so keen, so perceptive, held such fascination, even with the brutal winter weather she needed to go out in to work the beaches to come up with her fossil finds,... if she had just been a man, or of a higher class (then again being female of a higher class could have been a imitation in her interest with fossils unless she were restricted by looks and wealth and therefore the attentions of suitors might have overwhelmed her mind and held it away from wandering the beaches and her consequence fascination among fossil hunting and where it led )
--lucky for us she survived ....even while most of her siblings did not...
---class in England; caste in India etc, etc, such a waste of many lives..and unknown, unrealized talents!
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I find myself mostly interested in the division between fiction and fact in the book.. I keep trying to sort out what really happened..
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I just spent the last two hours reading about fossils in America and Annie Alexander's huge contribution to our Paleontology knowledge. Interesting lady!
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I know what you mean, Steph. I'm leaning to regarding the book as mainly "fact" - brought to life by Chevalier's research of the period... And I think the details were based on fact was well. Not forgetting Chevalier's creative expression - the way she describes those facts. More fact than fiction.
For example, I believe the Philpot girls lived in Lyme, that they belonged to the Anglican Church, that they were spinsters. All facts. But did Margaret actually go swimming from one of those bathing machines? Maybe! They were in use at the time. Were the sisters unhappy about not marrying? Maybe that's Chevalier's fiction. There appear to be more unwed ladies than available husbands during this period. Can we assume the war accounts for this?
So, you've read ahead...or read the links and know that Mary Anning never married. Sorry to learn that. What of friends? Did she ever have any suitors? Was Fanny Miller an actual friend - or fiction? She turns up at important turns in the story. From one of the links, I noticed this cartoon of Mary at work on the beach by Henry de la Beche - described as a lifelong "friend." Not much older than herself. Chevalier didn't mention him, did she? (Notice Mary's BOOTS!) No thin heeled pumps for our beachcomber...didn't really expect them. This little cartoon is a piece of history, don't you think?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Mary_Anning.jpg)
"It was about this time that Mary was greatly encouraged by a boy, Henry de la Beche, not much older than herself, and who was to become a lifelong friend. His educated background complemented Mary’s practical experience and willingness to find the fossils."
I found a bunch of information on George Cuvier, whose book of animal drawings Elizabeth refers to - think I'll save it for Saturday when we move on to Chapters 4-5.
Annie, who is Annie Alexander?
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If you clicked on PatH's link above to the nerdy article about fossils, you will see Annie Alexander's name attached to the "Saurian Expedition of 1905" with much written there about Annie. She is another amazing woman, into, paleontology and all kinds of fossil searching here in the US. Several finds have been named in her honor.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/archives/saurian.html
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Steph, "I find myself mostly interested in the division between fiction and fact in the book.. I keep trying to sort out what really happened.."
Other than knowing from reliable research sites, how do you discern as to what is fiction? I see parts that I tend to question, and consider it could be fiction, but isn't it interesting how we can't know for sure? Kind of leaves the reader to wondering.... I think TC has done a wonderful job in meshing the two together.
Ciao for now~
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Steph/Bellamarie:I always thought with historical fiction from fact there was the overall 'truth' i.e. she did/didn't marry but little areas to pad the story as perhaps the 'bathing machines' to add what the author had discovered in her research which she obviously really enjoyed doing, spending about 2 years doing each book, (she mentioned in the interview on the ...underground....book she was doing following the one we are reading)...I would hope the general gist of the story is truths as far as one is able to disconcern ...perhaps new truths become known with information uncovered later that previous information becomes an untruth and realized as such eventually
would you give an example as to one that you consider perhaps a 'fiction' in the book
--do not pretend to be any expert by any means but just curious
thanks
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bookad, My question concerning what may be fiction so far, is the freedom the sisters have in Lyme Regis. I lived with my friend and cousin in a small upper apartment, in a small town when I was 18 yrs. old, in the 1970's, and I get the feel from TC's writing, that the three Philpot sisters are in my era, rather than the 1800's. It was acceptable in the 1900's, to be single and live together, and be able to go about places without anyone questioning our reputation, but in the 1800's, it was almost unheard of. So for me personally, I feel as if TC, may have given the sisters and even Mary Anning, a bit more of a feel of a modern day life. We know that while living in Bath they did not have the freedom, as they do in Lyme Regis. One city to another, I can not imagine would change the acceptability of the three unwed sisters having more freedom in the same era. Again, I have no expertise, and can only share what my personal feelings have been while reading the story. Especially, after reading Jane Austen's books which took place in the same place, and time frame. Mary walking alone on a beach, approaching men, would be un-thought of. This is in no way a criticism to the author nor the story. It's just not ringing true with me.
Steph, Maybe you can share with us, what you are trying to discern between fact and fiction.
There has been discussion and pictures posted about bath houses. Can I ask where in these chapters they were mentioned, because I feel like I have missed something. Maybe we could use page #s to help those with bad memories, like myself.
Ciao for now~
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I wonder if the freedom of both Mary and Elizabeth is about class - we see the poor in nineteenth century literature free to roam all over towns and countryside - as to Elizabeth, she and her sisters appear to be less financially comfortable than those we read about in the Jane Austen stories - even those who are not living in the large country homes seem to be a notch above - also, I think the biggest difference is the women in the Jane Austen stories were focused still on getting married or they were married and if unattached, usually widowed, they were much older than Elizabeth and her sisters.
Without knowing for sure my guess is the incidents of possible friends and who said what are rounding out the story also, dialogue between characters I think is based on conjecture. We have found, without the kind of research that Tracy Chevalier must have done, much material that fits the story so that it appears to make it a story was to fill in the empty spaces between the bones so that it became a smooth narrative. I think Tracy Chevalier pull in a fictitious character to act out and tell us what was the gossip of the day as if it was coming from this one character and to share the known village opinion about the women as well as, the the thinking of the day.
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-do not pretend to be any expert by any means but just curious
---should read I do not pretend from my previous reply
don't quite know where the bathing machines are in the book but it came right after "Margaret" was shunned by what she hoped would be her suitor near the end of chapter 3; the other sisters thought they might help her out of her saddened feelings by this activity......wondering how many it took to push those out into the water, looks like an uncomfortable contraption, and depending on the bottom of the water there could be a bumpy ride....maybe it was like being in an ice hut, I for one wouldn't want to be in one of those by myself especially....could feel like a 'coffin' experience, unless it's interior is looking better than its exterior, must have cost a bit to be able to use one
I have read about a number of women though mainly from the later centuries who don't take on their societies constraints and tour the world for one reason or another, they usually being from the class that can afford to do so
I would like to think Elizabeth is a bit of a maverick and due to her choice of interest pushed herself out of her comfort zone to explore and be 'unlady like ' to many, i.e. Margaret's suitor who was not appreciating what his potential sister-in-law would look like
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/remarkablecover2.jpg) | In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis. To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.
Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This is the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day. |
| DISCUSSION SCHEDULE: | November 1-8 Chapters 1-3
November 9-15 Chapters 4-5
November 16-22 Chapters 6-7
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/ammonite.jpg) |
|
SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 4-5
1. Elizabeth asks the questions that are still argued today - The difference between Natural Theology and Revealed Theology.
2. How did the Dessenters orginate?
3. How does fossil hunting connect Newton and Immanuel Kant and Aristotle?
4. Under the Test Act of 1673 could Reverand Jones answer Elizabeth differently?
5. There appears to be a scramble for rights - are there rules of behavior for the hunters, escavators and collectors?
6. When does Elizabeth acknowledge she has independence, forthrightness and she sees herself as Lyme's "queer" one?
7. Mary, in her simplicity also has questions about her finds and how they fit God's plan. How does Mr. Buckland explain the tensions between geology and the Bible?
8. Does Mr. Buckland's explanation sound more reasonable than the explanation given to Elizabeth by Reverend Jones?
9. Mary respects Mr. Buckland but does she trust him?
Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4019.0); Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJEbfYNh9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCiJEbfYNh9E); The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG);
DLs: AdoAnnie (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com), Marcie (marciei@aol.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
A good example for me was Mary and even Elizabeth reacted to Colonol Birch.. and that I know is reading ahead, but also Mr. Buckland for Mary.. Did she really know them?? Was she romantically interested? Now someone talks of a boy her own age, which certainly made more sense to me.
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The beauty of reading, and discussing books with others, is the interpretation they express. I believe each person brings their own personal life experiences to the story, and takes from it what they personally feel. There is not necessarily a truth, or reason, to support a readers feeling. It just is........
I like these quotes:
"Certainly one of the surprising truths of having a book published is realizing that your book is as open to interpretation as an abstract painting. People bring their own beliefs and attitudes to your work, which is thrilling and surprising at the same time."
__ Marisha Pessl
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/interpretation
“The true reader reads every work seriously in the sense that he reads it whole-heartedly, makes himself as receptive as he can. But for that very reason he cannot possibly read every work solemly or gravely. For he will read 'in the same spirit that the author writ.'... He will never commit the error of trying to munch whipped cream as if it were venison.”
― C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/interpretation.html#XZc24pWQ6tOwhyGX.99
Okay on to read the next couple of chapters. Can't wait to see Mary's new finds!
Ciao for now~
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"I wonder if the freedom of both Mary and Elizabeth is about class - we see the poor in nineteenth century literature free to roam all over towns and countryside - as to Elizabeth, she and her sisters appear to be less financially comfortable than those we read about in the Jane Austen stories"
Barb, I couldn't agree more. While Tracy Chevalier draws much from Jane Austen's society, she is not writing about the "financially comfortable" as JA was. The Philpot girls cannot be held to the same standards as upper class ladies. They are living on a small income, though high for Lyme Regis. They have no monied parents who can arrange marriages for three daughters through connections. Brother John has sent them off to this remote village, avoiding any responsibility for their future, other than the small income left in their parents' will.
Don't you think the British foreign wars had a lot to do with the decreasing the male population and the number of unmarried young women during this period? I found this:
"The signing of the Declaration of Independence in 1776, the year after Austen’s birth, signaled the start of the American Revolution, followed in the next decade by the beginning of the French Revolution in 1789. For the next two decades, Britain was engaged almost without cease in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars of 1793–1815, one of the most significant conflicts in British history. Among the effects of England’s foreign wars during this period were great financial instability and monetary volatility."
No wonder there was much competition for single men not engaged in these wars. I wonder what the ratio was. No wonder we are reading about such a number of "spinsters" during this period.
I think Elizabeth and Louisa were wise to live their lives as they chose, given their situation and limited choices...even though they may have been regarded as "too free" for young women at the time.
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I found this interesting, and perhaps important to this conversation about women's freedom during this period. The beginning of Modern Feminism in England: Mary Wollstonecraft's "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman" (http://www.janeausten.co.uk/mary-wollstonecraftthe-first-of-the-modern-feminists/)
"She is rightly remembered as one of the founders of modern feminism.
Her daughter inherited her name and later become Mary Shelley, author of the classic novel: Frankenstein."
Steff, I think we'll all meet up with Mr. Buckland in the upcoming chapters and promise to consider whether his suggested relationship with Mary Anning - or Elizabeth Philpot was Tracy Chevalier's imagination at work - or real. I do know from reading some of these links that he did exist - and did come into contact with these two women.
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In looking around about Mary and Henry de la Beche, I found in a lengthy article this most interesting few paragraphs:
In 1826, at the age of 27, Anning managed to save enough money to purchase a home with a glass store-front window for her shop, Anning's Fossil Depot. The business had become important enough that the move was covered in the local paper, which noted that the shop had a fine ichthyosaur skeleton on display. Many geologists and fossil collectors from Europe and America visited Anning at Lyme, including the geologist George William Featherstonhaugh, who called Anning a "very clever funny Creature."[24] He purchased fossils from her for the newly opened New York Lyceum of Natural History in 1827. King Frederick Augustus II of Saxony visited her shop in 1844 and purchased an ichthyosaur skeleton for his extensive natural history collection.[25] The king's physician and aide, Carl Gustav Carus, wrote in his journal:
We had alighted from the carriage and were proceeding on foot, when we fell in with a shop in which the most remarkable petrifications and fossil remains—the head of an Ichthyosaurus—beautiful ammonites, etc. were exhibited in the window. We entered and found the small shop and adjoining chamber completely filled with fossil productions of the coast ... I found in the shop a large slab of blackish clay, in which a perfect Ichthyosaurus of at least six feet, was embedded. This specimen would have been a great acquisition for many of the cabinets of natural history on the Continent, and I consider the price demanded, £15 sterling, as very moderate.".[26]
And all along, I thought that the picture of Mary Anning's shop was of her parents home from which she sold curies. To think that she made enough money to own her own shop and was visited by many high society or highly scientific men. Even the King of Saxony and his physician. Amazing!
I wonder if her mother, Molly, was still alive?
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Barb and JoanP., I would tend to agree with you on this:
"The Philpot girls cannot be held to the same standards as upper class ladies. They are living on a small income, though high for Lyme Regis."
Although, as we will see in tomorrow's chapters, even Mary Anning, who is a poor girl, is required to have a chaperone with her on the beach with Mr. Buckland, because she is being gossiped about. Which actually answers my concerns for Mary, which I believe someone pointed out in a prior post, some things will be answered in the coming chapters. So my question now would be, do you suppose Elizabeth is being gossiped about, behind her back? As for the Jane Austen comparison I used, I was referring to Persuasion, and the family was not "financially comfortable", so I don't think the income status would make a difference, in the standards the females were held to, in the 1800's. Wandering around on the beach with other men, and approaching them, some total strangers in fact, does not ring true for me. It sounds risky, dangerous and reason for gossip to harm a woman's reputation. So, this is why I personally, consider it fiction.
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http://books.google.com/books?id=RV24mJB8tXAC&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=mr+buckland+and+mary+anning&source=bl&ots=0_EAXBauWe&sig=OutA9YkeqoU1_7aZy-ueV8uKsvk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ty59Uon5D6HayAHKhYC4DA&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=mr%20buckland%20and%20mary%20anning&f=false
This is a book I think I may decide to read. The Dragon In The Cliff (A Novel Based On the Life Of Mary Anning) by Sheila Cole
The author does say, "Since there are so few known facts about Mary Anning, Sheila Cole decided that the truest way to tell her story was through fiction." She spent years researching the story, including living in England for a year. She walked along the beaches of Lyme Regis where Mary worked and read her day book in The British Museum in London. Even more than the scientific work, it was Mary Anning's character that intrigued Ms. Cole and inspired her to write.
While browsing through some pages of this book, I did notice Mr. Buckland mentioned. So, if there are little known facts about Mary Anning, our author TC, would indeed have to also use fiction to tell her story, hence the concerns Steph and myself have been sensing.
This was a very interesting Review of the book:
Editorial Reviews
School Library Journal
Gr 5-9-- Mary Anning is the perfect subject for a children's biography, for she was only 13 when, in 1811, she became the first person to discover the fossil of an entire marine dinosaur. Cole does a wonderful job of describing Anning's struggles to overcome the biases of the times, the English town in which she lived, and its prejudices. Anning always had to fight to win the approval of both her parents and the gossipy townspeople, who thought it improper for a young girl to spend her days fossil hunting at the beach. While Cole's facts sometimes differ from the accounts in Fradin's Remarkable Children: Twenty Who Made History (Little, 1987), she also mentions that much of the information on her subject was sketchy, nonexistent, or false. Her novel is entirely believable, and her sensitivity to Anning's plight can't help but remind readers that it wasn't so long ago that women had little say as to the direction of their own lives. Children will identify with Anning's struggles with friends, family, and the ever-present poverty, but by including the societal instigators of her many problems--classism and sexism--Cole refuses to write down to her audience, or to simplify history. She presents here not only the effects, but also the historical causes, and for that she should be commended. --Cathryn A. Camper, Minneapolis Public Library
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-dragon-in-the-cliff-sheila-cole/1016952653?ean=978059535
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Ah Another book on Mary. I may try to find it. Sounds interesting and I find myself drawn more and more to the fact-fiction line in this book.
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"The Dragon in the Cliff"! Hmmmm, just the title makes me want to persue the story further. Also, I am impressed by the librarian's opinion of the author presentation. Must look at the library and for the the other book about the twenty children.
Having been curious about archeology and paleontology, I googled a bit to see what I could find. More satisfied dealing with paleontology as a true science, I found interesting articles. In case anyone might be interested, here's one that isn't hard to understand.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/fosrec/Stucky.html
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Had you noticed the HUGE issue that Tracy Chevalier inserts in this story in chapter 4 - fiction I think is Elizabeth actually questioning the vicar in the church - however, Chevalier does seem to make Reverend Jones appear like he is stumbling with his explanation. Is that Chevalier's way of tipping the scale do you think?
Trying to put these differences in a time frame - The Transcendentalists, a religious and philosophical movement with Dickenson, Emerson and Thoreau happening in New England during this time had not reached England until the 1830s. So, where Elizabeth's questioning could be as result of this thinking it was not available yet - neither was Darwin who did his work in the 1850's - her simple questions remind me of questions we had as kids so, they are natural enough. However, Tracy Chevalier devotes pages in her book to this age old argument -
Who are the Dissenters - easy enough to assume it is a word we hear and simply means folks who go against the norm - but then the question, is there is group or a movement who at the time were labeled Dissenters - turns out yes.
Here are a couple of links that will help us get more out of what appears to be Elizabeth's simple almost child like logical questions.
A look at Natural versus Reveled Theology simply explained.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_theology
Natural theology is... based on reason and ordinary experience. Thus it is distinguished from revealed theology (or revealed religion) which is based on scripture and religious experiences of various kinds;
A nice link giving us the background on Dissenters in Britain
http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/dissenter.html
And so if folks were not aware yet of Darwin's discovery nor the Transcendentalists movement from America what do they have to draw on that justifies these questions by any who at the time, looked at the natural world that includes science in face of religions that believe the bible is the storehouse of earth's history? How can Elizabeth continue in the world of fossil hunting if she accepts completely the words of Reverend Jones? Why does Reverend Jones suggest the Congressional church is less than the Church of England? What does the Congressional Church believe and what has he, Reverend Jones, made a vow to uphold?
A dynamite issue that is still the center of many a Christian viewpoint placed square in the middle of Tracy Chevalier's story.
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Barb, "Had you noticed the HUGE issue that Tracy Chevalier inserts in this story in chapter 4 - fiction I think is Elizabeth actually questioning the vicar in the church - however, Chevalier does seem to make Reverend Jones appear like he is stumbling with his explanation. Is that Chevalier's way of tipping the scale do you think?
Thank you for all the information you provided in your post. Yes, it was the HUGE Elephant in the pages. :o I did get the impression TC is trying to make the argument, of evolution vs. creation. I noticed in the first chapter when she spoke of the Dissenters, and the church of England, pg. 17 It is not surprising that there are several Dissenting sects in the town. Of course the main church, St. Michael's, is still the Church of England, but there are other chapels too that serve those who question the traditional doctrine: Methodists, Baptists, Quakers, Congregationalists."
Then on pg. 27 Another mention of Mary Anning being a Congregationalist, Elizabeth is asking Mary if she labels and keeps track of where she finds her fossils and Mary replies: "I don't read nor write." (Eliz) "Will you go to school?" She shrugged again. "Sunday school maybe. They teach reading and writing there." "At St. Michael's?" "No, we aint Church of England. We're Congregationalists. Chapel's on Coombe Street."
These I believe are TC's device, to begin having the reader open their minds to the thought of the fossils being before the flood and creation, hence they would have been from evolution, rather than God creating and saving these animals. I found it also interesting how she asks, if God would reject something he has made as if he made a mistake in making it. That was very strange for me, because for those who believe in the Bible, the book of Genesis, it is of creation, that God made ALL things, we know it is our belief all that God made is good. Why would an extinction, be looked at as a mistake God made? We have hunters who kill off rare species, making them extinct, and never would I question because that particular specie no longer exists, it must be considered its because God saw it as a mistake. Natural environments with drastic changes, is also responsible for certain species dying off. I was finding this theory/conversation completely strange. Elizabeth, being so persistent with Rev. Jones, rang fiction, because back then I don't think any woman, would challenge a man of the cloth, about God's intent, or creation, especially when it would be directly or indirectly hinting that evolution is how the world began. That would be considered blasphemy, and assuredly excommunicated from the church.
Barb, your question fits perfectly here, "And so if folks were not aware yet of Darwin's discovery nor the Transcendentalists movement from America what do they have to draw on that justifies these questions by any who at the time, looked at the natural world that includes science in face of religions that believe the bible is the storehouse of earth's history?"
Interestingly enough, through researching Mary Anning, she and her brother Joseph have Gravestones in St. Michael’s churchyard. And there is stained glass windows in St. Michael’s church in her memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Anning I would have posted the pictures of the gravestones and stained glass window but I don't know how to insert pics. I clicked insert image above, but nothing seems to work for me???
So does somewhere in the story, does Mary and Joseph leave being Congregationalists, and become members of the church of England, St. Michael's? And, does anyone else see TC opening up her readers to debating evolution vs. creation, as I do?
Ciao for now~
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Interesting links to help understand these different theories and groups:
http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_2.htm
Darwin and Natural Selection
http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/
Darwin’s Theory Of – A Theory in Crisis Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Dissenters
Browsing in the link I posted earlier about Mary Anning I found....
"It was around this time that she switched from attending the local Congregational church, where she had been baptised and, in which she and her family had always been active members, to the Anglican church. The change was prompted in part by a decline in Congregational attendance that began in 1828 when its popular pastor, John Gleed, a fellow fossil collector, left for the United States to campaign against slavery. He was replaced by the less likeable, Ebenezer Smith. The greater social respectability of the established church, in which some of Anning's gentleman geologist customers such as Buckland, Conybeare, and Sedgwick were ordained clergy, was also a factor. Anning, who was devoutly religious, actively supported her new church as she had her old."[
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Bella, I see you've answered your own quesiton about the stained glass window in Mary Anning's honor in St. Michael's... Your question about posting photos is not as easily answered...but will try.
1. You right click on the picture you'd like to show, then move to the very last item on the menu that comes up - "Properties."
2. You will see on list that comes up the URL address - copy the whole thing
3. paste the url you copied into a post, highlight it and then click the first icon for pictures and graphics that you see above the emoticons, under the B for bold. You should then see the image code surrounding the url. It will look like this (I'm leaving spaces so you can see the code here, otherwise the picture will show:
[ img] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/MaryAnningWindow.jpg/220px-MaryAnningWindow.jpg [ /img]
When removing the spaces, you get the image:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/MaryAnningWindow.jpg/220px-MaryAnningWindow.jpg)
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Why did Elizabeth go to the Rev. Jones for guidance in the first place, he of the "uninspiring sermons"? She's confused about the creature Mary has found...and its implications. I don't think she intended to get into a confrontation with him - I think she needed to hear what her Church thought of the possibility that these creatures might have come from a much earlier age than the Bible indicated. It WAS a radical idea, wasn't it? "If God let creatures die out, what about us?"
I thought it was humorous when she asked him what he thought of fossils - his response, "I don't think about them." (I'll bet that was fiction! :D)
When Fanny was called on to read the Biblical passage to her, Elizabeth noticed annotations in the Bilbe - in red - of Bishop Ussher's calculations"
"God created Heaven and Earth on the night preceding the 23rd of October 4004 BC."
I've never heard of Bishop Ussher and his calculations...have you? Really fascinating. Were his calculations widely accepted at this time? There is lots of research about how he arrived at October 23, 4004 - but too detailed to d to go into. I would like to know if his calculations are accepted anywhere today?
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I have to confess that that is the very first time, I have ever seen a date for creation.. Interesting?? Was it universally accepted or what.. Ranks right up there with all of the crusades people deciding they had the bone or or the place of all over current day middle east..
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Good thing you haven't paid me yet for those instructions, Bella! :D
When you click on PROPERTIES, you should copy this URL and then it would work. I don't know where you got your coding...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/MaryAnningWindow.jpg/220px-MaryAnningWindow.jpg
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(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://66south.com/MaryAnning/files/grave-of-mary-anning_web.jpg&imgrefurl=http://66south.com/MaryAnning/&h=611&w=400&sz=293&tbnid=NWsZjZpdA860dM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=59&zoom=1&usg=__TR_koz3vxBkTFC-VTp0sXQJGD94=&docid=sqq-y2wdI5NC7M&sa=X&ei=DKV_UtrjJcbuyAHiz4D4CA&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAw)
Hmmmm it is not working for me. I keep getting just the icon instead of the pic. Must be doing something wrong.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/MaryAnningGravestone.jpg/220px-MaryAnningGravestone.jpg)
This is the gravestone with Mary & Joseph Anning's name in the St. Michael's graveyard. As you can see from my earlier post they joined the Church of England due to lack of members in the Congregationalists.
YEA!!! I did it!!! Thank you so much JoanP., for your instructions. I so appreciate learning new things.
This was indeed a first for me to hear, never knew there was ever a date established. I will have to do some checking on this to see if it were fact or fiction.....
"God created Heaven and Earth on the night preceding the 23rd of October 4004 BC."
Interesting read if you care to try to understand his calculations: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/scopes/ussher.html
Now I am off to Christmas shop for the day. Yes, I did say "Christmas" shop. I have 6 grndkids so I have to get an early start. Everyone have a great Sunday.
Ciao for now~
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I think she's got it!
But let's go back to Chapter 4...Mary has some good days before it's over...
Do you get the idea that there really wouldn't be a story if it wasn't for Elizabeth Philpot? When the girls went to visit brother John that summer - and little Johnny came upon the "croc" in Bullock's museum... he was able to identify it from Elizabeth's watercolor drawings she'd done for him...(I imagine this was fiction...but maybe these watercolors exist to prove me wrong. ) But I do believe that Elizabeth saw such as display as described here. Bad enough the creature was dressed up as described here - fins/paddles stuffed into the vest and then made to look like crocodile legs! What really got to me - and to Elizabeth was the label..."Found by Henry Hoste Henley"
When confronted he told her that the creature was found on his property, his cliffs...that Mary Anning was only a worker, like the Days...and what she found was really his. What do you think? Does he have a claim to the creature - and anything else that Mary Anning comes across in the future?
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I think if I remember reading, Mary's mother takes over the bargaining with future fossils Mary finds, and makes Henley sign a contract to where they will no longer be his property. I also, think I did come across an image of sketches of the creature. Did you know that Eliz. is the person who first began using shavings of stones/fossils, to mix and make ink. How clever is that!
I'm not sure if I can go as far as thinking without Eliz. there would be no story, because I feel Mary and her mother would have been able to get to the same destinations with her creatures. Her mother was smart enough to get Henley to sign that contract, and once the creature was on display, other important people began coming to Lyme Regis, which in time would have gotten Mary the attention, knowledge, contacts and capabilities to succeed. But......Eliz. sure did make it happen much faster with having the finances and contacts to get Mary acknowledged, and on her way.
Okay now I am off.........
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Interesting tid bits about that Steph - Bishop Ussher (1581-1656) was a bit younger but lived during the time of Galileo (1564 – 1642) - the trial in Rome of Galileo took place in 1633 when the Bishop was age 52 - this PDF linked at the bottom, explains that Ussher's work was not anyway an attempt to enter the fry as Rome was trying to balance science with the Bible but this sort of examination was popular at the time --
However, more, I as astounded to read that others, long before Bishop Ussher, came up with similar dates.
The Venerable Bede, 672/673 – 26 May 735, writing in about AD 723, had reckoned the dawn of humanity at 3952 BC, and more contemporary scholars such as:
Joseph Justus Scaliger, 1540 - 1609, reckoned (3949BC), was a Dutch religious leader and scholar, known for expanding the notion of classical history from Greek and ancient Roman history to include Persian, Babylonian, Jewish and ancient Egyptian history.
The astronomer Johannes Kepler, 1571 - 1630 reckoned (3992 BC) was a German mathematician, astronomer and astrologer. A key figure in the 17th century scientific revolution, he is best known for his eponymous laws of planetary motion, codified by later astronomers, based on his works Astronomia nova, Harmonices Mundi, and Epitome of Copernican Astronomy. These works also provided one of the foundations for Isaac Newton's theory of universal gravitation.
The great Isaac Newton, 25 December 1642 – 20 March 1727, an English physicist and mathematician reckoned (4000 BC)
News to me - they had all come to similar calculations.
http://www.bethinking.org/science-christianity/conflict-myths-bishop-ussher-and-the-date-of-creation.pdf
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Talk about role reversal - Wow, Mary's mother was something - she paled in front of no man regardless of class, wealth, prestige -
Bellamarie Congrats - you did it - wonderful - now you can share your photo finds - fabulous - you bring up how Mary's mother is a key to Mary's future as a fossil hunter assuring she gets paid for her work and knowledge - Interesting is how the small amount of money they thought was a wind of wonders, paying off debts and buying the bits that made life liveable was so little compared to what Lord Henley and others were able to secure.
Can you just imagine the shock followed by horror and finally outrage as Elizabeth saw the beautiful specimen in the museum arranged incorrectly and dressed as in a circus - not only what she saw but realizing Lord Henley sold it to the museum with no forewarning when he made the arrangement with Mary and her mother.
Worse was as a women it was not like Elizabeth could immediately confront the situation and call on an army of supporters like a man could going to his club and raising a ruckus that may have even included a lawsuit. Instead Elizabeth had to contain her outrage and take tea at Fortnum's only sharing her outrage with Louise. Ouch - I bet all of us have at one time or another had to contain our feelings of not seen as important enough or worthy of an opinion - ouch ouch.
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When the cup at Fortnum's is mentioned I did not realize the store was that old - sure enough it opened when Mason met Fortnum in 1705 -
(http://www.fortnumandmason.com/images/CATEGORY/large/359.jpg)
The Link to Fortnum's - what a treat to spend time on their site - the history of the store is included.
http://www.fortnumandmason.com/c-7-magazine-fortnum-and-mason.aspx
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Barb, Wow! Now Fortnum's is truly a high end store for shopping, dining and tea. I could spend hours browsing that link. I just may put a wicker hamper on my Christmas list. Did you notice they use the Royal family in their ad. Pictures bring everything more to life, and clearer understanding. I am so glad we have the internet to find these wonderful links!
I was horrified when I read how they displayed the creature in the museum, nonetheless, Henley putting his name on it with absolutely no mention of Mary. And, when Eliz tells Mary about it, very upset, all Mary can do is hold back her excitement just knowing her creature was on a display in the museum. That sure opened her mother's eyes to what was to come!
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If you have not already the next time you visit London you just have to go in by the front door - it is like a childhood fantasy of what the scents are like in some exotic south sea trade ship - coffee, tea, chocolate, fruit flavored candy hit you and assail the senses like you would not believe - and the restaurant on the main level is one of the few affordable, nice, safe for a woman alone - stays open after store hours till midnight - to attend a show means such an early meal that I usually wait till after and walk over to Fortnum's for a nice hot affordable meal. Most restaurants are not serving late plus most I am not as comfortable dining alone. Now I can see the PBS shows on both Selfredges and the Paradise saying, it was all about making department stores woman friendly and the tradition carries on.
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Bellamarie, you mention evolution. I'm not sure that Elizabeth had made the leap to evolution but "extinction" was certainly on her mind when she questioned Reverend Jones. The author has associated certain characters with historic perspectives that she wants to represent in the book. I'm sure that many people at the time thought as Rev. Jones. Though, it doesn't seem to me that Elizabeth would question HIM about the church's point of view. She had made up her mind quickly about "collector" Henry Hoste Henley, with his lack of information or even interest in the details about fossils; she wasn't going to engage him in conversation about them. I would have thought that she had made a similar assessment of Rev. Jones from his sermons. He didn't seem like someone who's opinion she would value.
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I loved Elizabeths outrage about the"Crocodile". As written, she is a very very forward type.. Mary Annings mother was truly remarkable. A woman with no background in finance, etc, she really made a difference in their life.
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I liked that Elizabeth was able to release her outrage to Louisa after discovering what had become of Mary Anning's croc, Steph. I started paying attention to Louisa after that... an excellent companion for Elizabeth, wasn't she? Wondering if this is Tracy Chevalier's fiction, or if they really were close.
Barbara, thank you so much for the site on Fortnum's. I showed your post to my husband and he asked where it is located. He promises next time we cross the pond, we will go. My youngest son still lives in London. We'll probably go over early next year.
Another small detail regarding this particular trip to London. When the Philpots visited the British Museum, on display was a fossil fish called a "dapedium", which Elizabeth had donated...on the label the collector read "Philpot"..."neatly sidestepping the question of my sex." I would imagine it is still part of the Museum's collection - making the British Museum another stop the next time we visit London.
You might want to take a quick look at the the British Natural History Museum's main page on Fossils (http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/earth/fossils/)...Mary Anning is prominently featured!
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Although Mary's mother, Molly, is supposed to have been the person in charge of what happens to their curies, I like her forthrightness and businesslike approach to Henry Hoste Henley.
Now Mary will be given credit for her finds. And yes, Elizabeth was very important to the story as without the funding of the first dig at the site of an icthiosauras, much of this would not have happened. IMHO!
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Marcie, when Elizabeth is questioning "when" the fossils could have existed, and she makes the point of mentioning before the flood, and God creating something he thought a mistake, leads me to understand she is questioning, creation vs evolution. She is pretty direct in her questions. There are other points in these chapters, that in my opinion, TC is opening our minds to think about the life long argument.
So now that Molly, Mary's mother is an active partner and decision maker in Mary's finds, do you get the feeling Elizabeth will become less involved? I can see now the push and pull between Molly & Elizabeth. Molly, realizes there is lots of money and recognition to be had from these fossils. Elizabeth is more interested in having the world see them on display and giving Mary the recognition she is well deserved. I can't wait to see where this goes. Also, what are we to make of Mary becoming aware of her feelings for the opposite sex? I had to crack up with her conversation with Fanny about seeing a boy/man's body part. lolol :o :o Our Mary is growing up, and it did not surprise me Molly had to demand a chaperon for Mary's outings.
Ciao for now~
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Nice site showing the process of finding, cleaning, preparing fossils - the history they include only goes back to the late nineteenth century with no mention of any of the fossil hunters or collectors we are discovering as we research about this book but it is nice to know and have explanation for the process that a fossil we view in a museum goes through.
http://preparation.paleo.amnh.org/35/techniques-in-the-field
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Yes , it was interesting who they picked as a chaperone.. Mary really did not like her..
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Fanny seems to appear out of the blue...at odd moments. In the church, cleaning up after the sermon...and then she happened to be crossing a path and overheard Elizabethventing her rage against Lord Henry - calling him "bloody idiot" etc...
and now she becomes Mary's chaperone on the beach. As I recall, Mary didn't choose her, Steph.... but the geology professor, Mr. Buckland brought her from the inn where he was staying...to satisfy Molly Anning's concern for her daughter's reputation. Fanny just happend to work in the kitchen at that inn...and the whole thing was his idea. He didn't know that Mary didn't like her.
I'm wondering whether Fanny is Tracy Chevalier's fiction...do you think she actually existed?
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I'm still facinated by the annotation in Rev. Jones' Bible that Elizabeth noticed while Fanny was reading the passage on Genesis. The one in which Bishop Ussher's calculation of the date of creation.
On further investigation of Bishop Ussher's calculations (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/ussher.htm)I found this:
"In the seventeenth century, in his great work, Dr. John Lightfoot, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge, and one of the most eminent Hebrew scholars of his time, declared, as the result of his most profound and exhaustive study of the Scriptures, that "heaven and earth, centre and circumference, were created all together, in the same instant, and clouds full of water," and that "this work took place and man was created by the Trinity on October 23, 4004 B.C., at nine o'clock in the morning." [/b] John Lightfoot (1602-1675), Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University was a contemporary of Ussher. Lightfoot published his calculations in 1644, before Ussher's were completed."
While it is interesting that both men, working independently, came to the 4004 B.C date, I really wanted to know when Mary's sea creature actually lived - as a point of comparison. Found this:
The early Jurassic period, ranging between 198 and 185 million years ago
My mind can't even conceive of time in this way!
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(http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/images/history/mosasaur2.jpg)
This print shows the recovery of the first mosasaur fossils in 1780. Cuvier used the fossils to support his radical ideas on extinction.
Here is a good site online from Berkeley about those early scientists realizing extinction was part of the earth's history.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/history_08
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I think what fascinated me about Fanny is how when you have no opportunity to follow your own star and must work to exist where ever you are hired and how that affects your view on life as compared to Joseph who because of that initial sale and the urging of Elizabeth was able to follow a trade not only for better pay but a trade more in keeping with how he is.
And so if you have no opportunity to use your God given talents but can only use those talents that will earn dollars as Fanny I can see how you would have this un-named sour attitude along with jealousy. I am thinking Fanny is jealous of Mary probably because she sees Mary enjoying what she is doing even if it is so un-typical of the proper behavior and work skills for a women.
I wonder just how many young people today enjoy their work at these low skilled jobs like those who wait on you at a fast food counter - to me flipping the hamburgers requires some skill and thinking therefore, is a step up - but all the creativity is taken out of so many jobs -
Are we turning folks into Fanny's and then wonder why so many workers are disgruntle or showing their un-named feeling that they do not matter but are fodder in a job they take just for money so, they gravitate to shock and awe behavior in song language and on the internet - There isn't a concerted national move that supports helping them see they could be a Joseph and there is no attitude, as Elizabeth showed when she helped those with money what they could do for Joseph -
Elizabeth had to convince both Mary, who earned the money and Molly, who negotiated the sum, who only saw how the money could make their current life less austere so that she was not looking at the future. Elizabeth helped them see the wisdom of furthering Joseph's talents and his dislike of fossil hunting so that they were willing to fund his future especially when they are living on the edge.
There are some companies that will still offer to pay for their employees higher education hoping for a better workforce including Home Depot but Congress and States are fighting now about funding eduction. Looks like many business owners want to keep a workforce with low expectations and low skills that they can pay low wages assuring greater profit for the investors. hmm what are they invested in - compared to the investment Mary and her mother were willing to make given their circumstances.
Another look at understanding the Fanny's of our world and why they are angry. They have no clue they are denying their God given talents just to survive by satisfying the needs of who ever has cash.
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Barb, I agree with your feelings about how people feel disgruntled with low paying, low skilled jobs. My fear is with the new Affordable Healthcare Act, it is only making less full time positions, less pay, higher insurance costs, which will only lead to more disgruntled people in the workforce, who are going to vent that anger in areas that could harm others or themselves.
I tend to think business owners would want more for their workers, so they would be more productive, resulting in better profits for the company and better attitudes in the employees. We are in a state of affairs where the government is so involved, that it is pitting the employer against the employee. Regardless of what type of skill you have, whether it be like Fanny in the kitchen, or myself at one point washing dishes in a restaurant, as long as you are considered worthy, and treated with respect, and know what you are doing seems important and meaningful to the company, I think you can find self worth in what you do. I was a non certified computer teacher in a private Catholic elementary school for fifteen years. I along with the other non certified positions, such as janitorial, secretarial, nurse, aides, Auxiliary clerk, etc., always was treated with dignity, respect and felt our position was as important as any certified teacher, until a new principal came in, and at the first faculty meeting separated the certified and non certified people, and treated the non certified with less importance, respect and dignity. I could not work for someone so blatantly disrespectful. I resigned from my position at the end of the winter break. At the end of the school year, 80% of the certified teachers left the school because they did not like how this principal treated everyone. The enrollment went down, and the school is now needing to merge with area schools to continue to stay open. This principal along with the powers that be, cut positions and wages and brought down the morale of the entire staff. So I guess my point is no matter where you work, no matter what your position is, and even the pay, if you are treated by the company with dignity and respect, you don't mind knowing they are profiting from your performance. That's how it's suppose to work.
I'm not sure Fanny was jealous of Mary fossil hunting. I think if anything Fanny wanted to be Mary's friend, and hence there is where the rift comes in. Mary does not treat Fanny as her equal when she comes to chaperon, she watches her sit day after day bored, and even in the cold and wet rain and does not seem to have consideration enough to stop hunting with Mr. Buckland, so Fanny can get out of the horrible weather conditions and go inside to her own job. It isn't until they share the moment of laughter, when Mr. Buckland goes to pee on the beach, they connect as if they could be friends. Granted, maybe Mary does not have the social skills, to know how to be a friend to someone close to her own age because she has been secluded on the beach with her father, Joseph or alone all these years, until Eliz comes into her life. I would like to see Fanny and Mary become friends, but I also feel sad for Fanny, having to spend her hours out there for the sake and selfishness of Mary and Mr. Buckland. If I were Fanny I would resent Mary, just for that reason alone, and be justified in feeling that way.
I do sense Fanny is a fictional character, and have since the first time her name is mentioned. She pops up in opportune times, yet seems insignificant so far to the story.
Ciao for now~
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Oh dear it is too easy for us to get into our political views isn't it - ah so - what will happen we can only guess and hope we have the wisdom to take care of the changes that occur regardless the choices. It is difficult when those we see as in a position of authority disappoint us and our exceptions - it is difficult today to embrace the challenge that all that happens is an opportunity for self examination and our own growth.
Thanks Bellamarie this was a good reminder to review some of the quotes that help me navigate what happens - hope they help you as much - It is like the quote about “ People often say that motivation doesn’t last. Well, neither does bathing — that’s why we recommend it daily."
What is "out there" in the world is created as a mirror for what is in our hearts and minds. What we feel, think and run away from will quickly reappear in front of us. (Mother Mary, Sydney)
We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are. (The Talmud)
When I point my finger at another, I have three fingers pointing back at me. (Unknown)
Life sure takes work doesn't it to learn what we are here to learn.
I do think it was wise and admirable of Elizabeth to see the advantage for Joseph that meant his family living on the edge could and would be supportive of him and his future - Interesting that Tracy Chevalier includes this in her story - I wonder if she found through research that it is true - so far, I only read that Joseph was shy and stepped out of the picture. Seems such an American attitude that I am surprised to read how someone in the middle class would encourage someone in the lower class to take the steps to the next class level - I see Elizabeth doing her part to help Mary get the attention for her finds that she deserves but do not see the same urging for her to step into the next class - Mary selling her finds does better her self when she purchased her own house. Maybe later in the story we learn that it was Elizabeth who suggests and urges her to buy property - we shall see - when reading most Brit centered stories I need to remind myself that class differences was as deep as race is for us in America.
I wonder who are Fanny's parents - I wonder if we learn that or if it is important as we continue to read the story.
Interesting isn't it how Mary relishes her outdoor work regardless the wind, cold and rain.
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bellamarie, you are right that the fossils are raising lots of questions for Elizabeth. It doesn't seem that she has found an answer that satisfies her.
Thanks for the information, Joan, about Bishop Ussher and Dr. Lightfoot. All of their biblical research and calculations to pinpoint the date and exact hour of the creation of the world is interesting in the context of their time and understanding of the world. I did get a laugh, though, at mention of some recent work of fiction that says with a snicker that Lightfoot was a half hour off :-)
On Tracy Chevalier's Remarkable Creatures website, the only three people included in the historical figures section (in addition to Mary Anning) are: Elizabeth Philpot, William Buckland and Lt. Colonel Thomas James Birch. http://www.tchevalier.com/remarkablecreatures/background/historicalfigures/index.html
Fanny may be a composite of various people or someone the author created for the story. We first met Fanny in Chapter 3 where she seems to represent many of the poor people who live in the area, who are uneducated and fear what they don't understand. Fanny and Mary start out as friends but Mary tells us that "Fanny did not remain my friend though, no matter who many jewels I brought back for her from the beach. It weren't just that the Millers were suspicious of fossils, they were suspicious of me too, especially once I started helping the Philpots, who people in town made fun of as the London ladies too peculiar even to get a Lyme man. Fanny would never come if I was going upon beach with Miss Elizabeth. She got more and more funny with me, making comments about Miss Elizabeth's bony face and Miss Margaret's silly turbans, and pointing out holes in my boots and clay under my nails. I began to wonder if she were my friend after all."
THis is what we know about Fanny's family: Fanny's father was a woodcutter who sold wood to the Annings. Her mother worked at the factory. The Millers were members of the same Congregationalist Chapel as the Annings.
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I always thought of Fanny as fiction. Too too convenient in being there when needed. But I do suspect she conveys the attitude of most people of Marys age and class.. They truly did not understand Mary and I think that The Philpotts baffled them.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/remarkablecover2.jpg) | In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis. To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.
Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This is the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day. |
| DISCUSSION SCHEDULE: | November 1-8 Chapters 1-3
November 9-15 Chapters 4-5
November 16-22 Chapters 6-7
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/ammonite.jpg) |
|
SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 6-7
Chapter 6 begins with Elizabeth's reflection that digging her out of the sand and rocks to save Mary's life didn't bring them closer together but drove them apart. What/who are the catalysts that drive Elizabeth and Mary apart?
What do Elizabeth and Mary each think of the men who come into their lives, Mr. Buckland and Lt. Colonel Birch? How do each of them react to each of the men and to each other?
What is your opinion of Lt. Col. Birch? Do any of his actions cause your view of him to change during the chapter?
What happens at the end of Chapter 6 to cause Elizabeth to weep, not for Mary but for herself?
What do you think of the confrontation between Elizabeth and Mary in Chapter 7? What seems to be happening to their relationship?
How does Mary change and what causes her to do so? Does Mary learn anything, or come to terms with anything, about her life?
Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4019.0); Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJEbfYNh9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCiJEbfYNh9E); The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG);
DLs: AdoAnnie (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com), Marcie (marciei@aol.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
Here's nice link about the first ichthyosaurs found back in the 1600's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichthyosaur
Isn't is amazing how Elizabeth connects the finding of the Lyme Regis fossil with their beliefs concerning the beginning of the world? Especially, since the first ichthyosaur was found much earlier and then given a name by Sir Richard Owen in 1840? A link to him is here. Hmmmm! Seems he was controversial also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Owen
And here's a link to the first whole ichthyosaur being on exhibit in Lyme Regis and of course, its Mary Anning's croc!
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2011/august/worlds-first-ichthyosaur-goes-home-after-200-years100730.html
Fanny's story about being trapped in the slip and someone rescuing her makes
me wonder if she is fictional. Well, her story does add to the book.
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Egads, sorry if my last post got a bit political. I was attempting to address the "disgruntled employee" point, but more so, hoped it showed how if treated with dignity and respect it would not matter what class, skill or position you hold for a job, seeing Fanny's work, as important as Mary's fossil hunting, so Fanny would have no reason to be jealous of Mary.
Barb, " I need to remind myself that class differences was as deep as race is for us in America."
Gosh, I think I also need to remind myself of this while reading books in earlier eras, and in other countries. It does help to keep things into perspective doesn't it. Having never visited other countries, other than Canada, I lack the the awareness of this. Thanks Barb.
As Marcie reminds us, Fanny and Mary were friends in the beginning, and it seems the Philpot sisters casted suspicions of whether Fanny's parents thought it acceptable to be spending so much time with the spinster sisters.
The whole burial of Mary and Captain Cury in the landslide was horrific and creepy, imagining them lying there buried, alone on the beach, not knowing if and when someone would come to rescue you. This just spooked me out:
pg. 144, "Captain Cury, can you hear me? Are your bones broke? Fanny's leg is broke, I think. Mr. Buckland's taken her with him. He'll come back soon." I was chattering on to mask my terror. The finger stayed stiff, pointing up at the sky. I knew what that meant, and began to cry. "Don't go! Stay with me! Please stay, Captain Cury!"
pg. 145, "It was hard to breathe now with the mud so heavy. My breathing got slower, and so did the beat of my heart, and I closed my eyes."
Knowing Mary, survived did not make this any less frightening to read, how close she came to death. And wasn't it interesting Mary knowing this she says: "I tried to think of God instead and how He would help me through it. I never told anyone this, but thinking of Him then didn't make me less scared."
This reminded me of the Homily our priest gave this past Sunday, he told us when he was a missionary priest in Africa, he went to the bedside of a very old, dying woman, who had her Rosary beads and Bible on her side table, and she used these similar words to him. Ironic, yet a bit of a mystery for me. Does give me food for thought.
Ciao for now~
Annie we were posting at the same time. The landslide was pretty eventful!
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We both got off into politics Bellamarie - and I have to remind myself when I tend to rant that I am only seeing what is in me and so I need to see my rant as a mirror and look at how I am or not furthering my future because of not being in the swing of things as I was what seemed like only a few years ago - Mary and her family is on the edge financially and determining a future that required choices - my edge is more along the lines of going to another phase of life where a new life purpose must be determined rather than drifting, riding out the waves of what was.
Marcie thanks for filling in Fanny's parents - looks like both Mary and Fanny's fathers were in the same line of work - I thought it was telling to read how Mary was preparing her fossil in her father's workshop still littered with his wood shavings, almost like he would walk in the door any minute and resume his work so that Mary is surrounded by the spirit of her father.
It looks like Steph, you and Ann see Fanny as a fictional character - I bet you are right Steph that it was a devise used by Tracy Chevalier to allow us to know what those in the villages were saying and thinking. We never hear that much about Elizabeth's older sister who liked to garden - you would think that would ingratiate them with the community. They probably dressed to upscale compared to those in their lowered class because of a lack of wealth and because of that lack they could not socialize with those who probably dressed as they did and were more educated.
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Another stroke of history - Chevalier has Fanny both knitting and making lace while she chaperons Mary. Lace making was waning and not as important to the dress of both men and women and women no longer carried lace fans as during the eighteenth century when lace was taxed.
Reading, I found that where there was no longer lace manufactured in Dorset, expensive lace of good quality was made in Lyme Regis, Blandford, and Sherborne. This was needle made lace in addition to the lace that involved bobbins and a cushion often depicted in old photos from Belgium and France.
There were lace schools through out the area until the plague wiped away teachers, students thus, the schools disappeared in the seventeenth century. From what I have read the main street in Lyme, (Broad Street) is where the lace makers lived. They gossiped and entertained travelers who came for the waters, their clients, telling them about the valiant deeds of Lyme men during Monmouth times. (Another layer of this town's history - the next post)
Queen Charlotte had a lace dress made for her in Lyme that pleased the court to no end. The demise of the industry was so swift as manufactured lace took over that when Queen Victoria wanted her wedding dress made in Lyme there were not enough lace makers to be found in order to complete a dress.
A good lacemaker was in training since childhood for as much as 8 years and then apprenticed for another 4 or 5 years before selling her own completed piece of lace. Lace was worked piecemeal with each doing the section they were most adapt at.
Here is a photo of point lace that you can see is mostly a buttonhole stitch around pieces of the cloth left intact and then further decorated with bars connecting where the cloth has been removed.
(http://www.nordicneedle.com/newsletters/stash/49/point-de-venice.jpg)
Where as this is an example of Bobbin Lace - which does not start with a ground of cloth and does require a large cushion to work on, that no way could Fanny take with her to work on out of doors in the weather on the cliffs
(http://www.paulandkarisse.net/Bucks%20Point%20Lace%20Mat.jpg)
The knitting would probably be knitting ladies lille stockings although hand knitted stockings were also going out of fashion. Looks like our Fanny needed workforce training for a new economy. ;)
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The mention of Monmouth times had me on the search - there is a beach - one of four in Lyme called Monmouth beach so at first I thought there was a shipping industry with brave sailors rescuing ships at sea. But no - this is a big deal - what we did not know about Lyme is amazing.
"The Monmouth Rebellion, also known as The Revolt of the West or The West Country rebellion, was an attempt to overthrow James II, who had become King of England, Scotland and Ireland upon the death of his elder brother Charles II on 6 February 1685."
"The Duke of Monmouth landed at Lyme Regis on 11 June 1685 and for the following few weeks his growing army of nonconformist, artisans and farm workers fought a series of skirmishes with local militias and regular soldiers commanded by Louis de Duras, 2nd Earl of Feversham and John Churchill who later became the Duke of Marlborough. Monmouth's forces were unable to compete with the regular army and failed to capture the key city of Bristol. The rebellion ended with the defeat of Monmouth's army at the Battle of Sedgemoor on 6 July 1685 by forces led by Feversham and Churchill."
Here is more about the battle at Lyme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monmouth_Rebellion#From_Lyme_Regis_to_Sedgemoor
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Barb, your beautiful lace pictures brought back memories of the beautiful lace doilies my Mom would make. I crochet, knit and needlepoint, but never could get the art of lace. When I read Fanny doing this on the beach, my first thought was how the sand and moisture would damage the threads and yarn. I was always so careful when I would do my work, so as never to get the least speck of anything near the materials of my project. It was a large stretch for my imagination, to believe Fanny or anyone, would take their precious threads and yarn on a beach. It would be interesting to know the cost of thread and yarn back then, especially after reading this from your post:
"I found that where there was no longer lace manufactured in Dorset, expensive lace of good quality was made in Lyme Regis, Blandford, and Sherborne."
Do you suppose TC gave any thought to the fact her readers would question this? Fiction indeed. I am imagining, TC has never done either of those crafts, or she would have known the beach would be the last place for it, IMO.
Ciao for now~
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Thought - we have no idea, however, if Fanny and her lace making was real and her mother works in a factory - there were 3 cloth factories in Lyme during the early nineteenth century and so bringing home spun yarn would have supplied Fanny with her needs however, there was in most areas where there were active lace makers and knitters a plan that if she sold her work to like a wholesaler or vendor or middle man they would supply the yarn. With sheep still a source of wool and flax growing prolifically in Dorset there would be a source of inexpensive wool that is spun into lille and linen used mostly for point as well as bobbin lace.
Most women at this time carried their projects with them in their apron pocket so they could knit or stitch anytime they had a spare minute including while chatting on the street or I have some old photos in one of my books of woman stitching sitting on a stone wall by the Irish sea.
I do know that early stitching was done sitting in the doorway since lamp light was expensive and few windows to give adequate light. The reason so many young women in France and Belgium went blind was from age 12 onward they were hired to make lace all sitting in a room where the light from one candle was fractured by a cut crystal glass holding water and each girl placed their work and chair where one of those fractured beams was a source of light.
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I agree with you, Steph.
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I have got so carried away by this book, that when we began this section I (having finished it already, intending to reread it and follow along) accidentally began reading the following section and suddenly found myself with the book finished .....excellent read
finding it so sad that the reality of the day was .....one seemed stuck in the class they were born into and Mary who could have been so much further recognized for her contributions in fossils was slated to be held to her station in life whereas if she had been a male and in an upper class she may have been known today alongside Darwin and others for her discoveries ....as it was she was kept to finding fossils and remaining behind while others claimed the limelight and status
I remember reading during the first world war, the English were not as cohesive a group as the Americans, Canadians etc due to the class structure that was maintained within their brackets.
I have been interested in the bobbin lacemaking, as every fall there is a quilting fair with other craft venues and always there has been a group of women with their bobbin lacemaking creating their lace in demonstrations. I even went so far as to try my hand at this with a set of old fashioned clothes pins (to use for bobbins), crochet threads, book from the library on bookmark making, using lacemaking with bobbins and a pillow of a sort. Everything can be folded into a compact carrying mode when finishing for the day.
am determined to go to the museum this week and check on fossils in the area of south Florida and walk some shores and look for some
this book has really grabbed me, peaked my curiosity around a number of issues and given me added interest in this author, having not enjoyed the previous book I read by her.
and all your wonderful sites giving further information on points of interest give much more dimesnion with this read''thank you"
bookad
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I cannot imagine lace making at the beach. I have seen people doing it as a demonstration and just too complicated and delicate. Now sewing.. that makes sense.. idle hands, etc.
I still think Fanny stands for the people of Marys age, specifically female.
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I couldn't get the idea of Fanny being a fictional character out of my head, especially when I could not imagine her lace making on the beach in the conditions TC described in the book. So I went on a little research journey and I found this interesting. Tracey Chavelier was a reader of Frances Trollope, nicknamed "Fanny" In researching her recent book, "The Last Runaway" she read Fanny's book, Domestic Manners of Americans. In an interview TC says: (Notice how TC uses Frances's nickname "Fanny" in her interview.)
During her research, Chevalier – who has lived in London since 1984 – read Frances Trollope’s book,
“I found it hilarious. She describes so many things that remind me of the way the British see Americans, still. Funny little things, like Americans eat faster. Fanny Trollope has so much fun with it; she says American women are flat-footed and they don’t know how to make conversation: they’re not sparkling, they don’t have any interest in anyone else. I’m not saying that Americans are like that, but there are elements that I recognise. I had a lot of fun playing around with how Honor would respond to America and what that says about us now.”
http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/books/tracy-chevalier-on-her-new-novel-the-last-runaway-1-2840194
So, knowing how much TC seems to like and admire, Fanny Trollope, I don't think its a stretch of the imagination she would use the name "Fanny" as one of her characters in one of her own novels.
Something else I especially liked finding from one of TC's interviews is:
"By using fewer words, I am also giving readers the chance to fill the gaps with their own. "Less is more" encourages collaboration, which is what a book should be—a contract between writer and reader."
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/01/why-the-phrase-less-is-more-means-so-much-to-tracy-chevalier/267399/
I think this statement corroborates exactly how we are feeling about this book of hers. We are filling in the gaps, with what each of us as individuals are feeling, seeing and expecting from the story. That's what gives us the latitude to go with our thoughts, and have these great discussions. Bravo! to TC, she is an author after my own heart.
I am still learning how to upload pics, so I decided to try and share a pic of Fanny here. If I succeed it's because I was determined to not give up.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Frances_Trollope_by_Auguste_Hervieu.jpg/220px-Frances_Trollope_by_Auguste_Hervieu.jpg)
Ciao for now~
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aha - so Fanny does have a history - just not one that most of us imagined for her ;) :D
Steph, Point lace is like sewing but like you it is hard for me to imagine keeping the cloth clean when carting it around to work on where ever you are. I must say though when my youngsters were young I took all sorts of needlework with me to work on while sitting on the grass of the nearby Henry Clay estate while they learned to roller skate and bike ride on the sidewalk that we did not have in front of our house.
Found this last night - scroll down the photos of the beaches around Lyme and the charts of the various levels of history in the earth around Lyme are just grand - really the best I have seen so far.
http://www.discoveringfossils.co.uk/lyme_regis_fossils.htm
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Barb, what an interesting piece of information: "from age 12 onward they were hired to make lace all sitting in a room where the light from one candle was fractured by a cut crystal glass holding water and each girl placed their work and chair where one of those fractured beams was a source of light."
Thanks for the photos of the beaches around Lyme. I wouldn't have thought that today they would allow (even encourage) people to come and discover and take fossils with them.
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More Tid Bits about the people of Lyme
"By 1800 Mr Bennett’s shoe-making business was prospering and in 1802 he rented a house on Bridge Street, off Cockmoile Square, next door to the home of the Anning family. Fossil-collector Mary was then just three; the two families never inter-married however, Mary dying a spinster. However, it has been suggested she may have fostered an interest in fossils in some of the Bennett grandchildren.
http://dorset-ancestors.com/?p=1489
A water color painting of a double-decker bus named "Mary Anning" (actually it's one of the buses of the X53 coastal line) looming around the tight corner of Bridge Street and blocking all other traffic, on Mary Anning Day (March 18) in 2005, with "Mary Anning" herself aboard and greeting the crowd, which has been listening to speeches about her from the steps of the Guildhall - more about Mary and another painting
http://www.lymaze.com/Anning.htm
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Reading one of these books online that Google prints out that you cannot copy from it. The Fossil Hunter: Dinosaurs, Evolution, and the Woman Discoveries Changed the World By Shelley Emling said, that Molly and Richard, the parents of Mary rented a timber frame house next to the Town Jail called the Cockmoile. The location was described as a nuisance with the "hoosegow" drawing so many unsavory characters. Densely packed Cockmoile Square has the Town Hall on one corner which shared the building with the Butcher shop - the square had the stocks that were still used till 1837. Next door were the Bennetts, the shoemaker and on the square was the hotel, Three Cups Inn.
Richard was a giant of a man who grew up 12 miles away in a medieval village called Colyton. The town was a Saxon village laid out in circles that evidently was typical of Saxon towns with lots of trade from local skilled craftsmen. Richard came from a long line of cabinet makers. Richard never really settled down he has what was called a spirited personality. He died at 44 in 1810, leaving his family destitute.
When Mary purchased her house in 1826 at the age of 27 she left crowded Cockmile Square behind and moved her family to the back of the house on Broad Street. Moving up the street higher on the hill was considered a social move. The house was located in what was called 'The Top fo the Hill' with cows grazing nearby. George Roberts moved in across the street and newly opened was the Royal Lion Hotel where many of Mary's fossil customers stayed. At the foot of Broad street was the most important shopping area. This move was so momentous it was reported in the newspaper.
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Mary wore something called pattens on her feet to keep they dry while walking on the beaches. Some sort of metal plate nailed to the wooden sole of the shoe and then metal bars connecting the two but I cannot visualize where these metal bars are located if the metal plate is nailed to the sole of the shoe. Geologists who visited were there to learn and copied this contraption called pattens. Early, when they first started the Murchison's visited to learn from Mary and learned to use these pattens. The Murchison's were the ones who found the first dinosaur. Charlotte Murchison and Mary became good friends.
Aha found it - even photos --- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patten_%28shoe%29
"Pattens are protective overshoes that were worn in Europe from the Middle Ages until the early 20th century. Pattens were worn outdoors over a normal shoe, had a wooden or later wood and metal sole, and were held in place by leather or cloth bands. Pattens functioned to elevate the foot above the mud and dirt (including human effluent and animal dung) of the street, in a period when road and urban paving was minimal."
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Oh, I have actually seen those.. We were in Switzerland years and years ago and went to the ancestral village of my husband.. His grandparents were both born there. Anyway, we were in the cemetary and it had rained and was muddy.. Several women had on these peculiar overshoes and you just described them.. Amazing.
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The patterns remind me of the wooden clogs the dancers wore when I was at the Holland tulip festival. I can't imagine trying to walk in them, especially on sand and pebbles.
Okay off to read the next chapters.
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I sometimes find it difficult to imagine a walk on the beach of Lyme Regis...no sand, but rather a combination of stones...and mud. I can see where those 'pattens' were required footwear. Can't picture Jane Austen/Anne Elliot wearing them, though. I guess their walks on the beach meant walking on the Cobb!
Here's a note on my desktop about the body Mary Anning discovered one morning on the beach. This corpse of the once beautiful Lady Jackson had quite an effect on Mary. Did this really happen? Or was it part of Chevalier's fiction? Why is she crying. Mary tries to explain her feelings to Elizabeth - "she's just like me." "We'll all become fossils some day."
I began to think of what this episode meant in the context of the story.. It wasn't long after that that William Buckland came on the scene, a learned professor from Oxford - Mary is looking for information...answers to questions she has regarding the sea creature, and how different it is from crocodiles.
"Is this one of the creatures Noah brought on his ark?" "Why would God make creatures that don't exist anymore?" "Do you think the world was created in six days?"
His answers to her questions weren't enough for Mary - she thought a learned man would have had some answers...other than to talk about interpretation and mysteries. He did explain - "after all the layering of rock and the fossilization of animals occurred - then man was created. That is why there are no human fossils, you see." (His answers were more responsive than those Elizabeth received from Rev. Jones, though - which wasn't surprising.) Elizabeth and Mary are looking for answers to the same questions, aren't they? Do they talk about this to one another, I wonder?
Is that the connection between Mary's discovery of Lady Jackson's - and Buckland's mention of human fossils? Do you agree there are no human fossils? Or does he refer to human fossils from the Jurassic Period?
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One more question for those of you who have closely read these links...Mary's discovery brought many "hunters" to Lyme Regis. Were there any more ichthyrosaurus (sp?) fossils discovered after Mary's? Do hunters still come to Lyme Regis looking for such remains?
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William Buckland did give a scientific answer to Mary rather than the "biblical" answer that Rev. Jones gave to Elizabeth. I don't think either answer satisfied the women. At the time --even later at the time of Darwin -- thinking that "creation" wasn't a literal 7 days was a shattering world view. I think that people who were looking at the scientific evidence sort of skirted around the issue when they talked about it with others (maybe even themselves). I think that Buckland meant no human remains were found in the Jurassic period which was in the MESOZOIC ERA. Men's ancestors came later, in the CENOZOIC ERA. http://www.esse.ou.edu/fund_concepts/Fundamental_Concepts4/Geologic_Time_Scale.html
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Marcie you have me reading again, it becomes apparent we take so much for granted as beliefs change it still amazes me - it turns out that the Darwinian Theory had few biologists that believed natural selection was its primary mechanism and Darwin's Theory was only settled in the early 1930s - can you believe it was that recent - it seems another theory gave it stiff competition called Transmutation of Species written by Jean-Baptiste Lamarck early in the nineteenth century were species morphed into the next level - there was a tree of life that handsomely showed this phenomenon. And so even had Mary asked her questions after Darwin she would not be given an explanation that we understand today.
Vaguely I remember Father Fritz teaching Transmutation however, Father Lynn taught us that a day in the Bible did not represent the same 24 hours that we understand as a day and a day could be a million years. I remember we were shocked into silence - this was new thinking for a bunch of Freshmen in High School during the 1940s.
Here is the tree of life that was used to explain Transmutation.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/de/Tree_of_life_by_Haeckel.jpg/378px-Tree_of_life_by_Haeckel.jpg)
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a brief rundown of William Buckland including his photo as an older gentleman - interesting is the last paragraph.
"One of the less well-known aspects of Buckland's career is his early investigation of dinosaur poop. Another English naturalist, Mary Anning, had noticed that the ichthyosaur fossils she had discovered along the Lyme Dorset coast contained "bezoar stones" that, when cracked open, revealed the fossilized remnants of fish scales and bones. Not only did Buckland correctly interpret these "stones" as fossilized feces, but he was the individual who coined the term "coprolite," which has persisted down to the present day!"
http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/famouspaleontologists/p/williambuckland.htm
There was a Megalosaurus dug up in England in 1676 that no one knew what it was and so it remained nameless until William Buckland in a paper he wrote in 1824 names the dinosaur.
Do any of you remember this sentence in Bleak House: "It would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill." I sure don't.
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OK here we go - "The idea of transmutation of species was very controversial in the first half of the nineteenth century, seen as contrary to religious orthodoxy and a threat to the social order, but welcomed by Radicals seeking to widen democracy and overturn the aristocratic hierarchy."
Hmm, this theory of transmutation of species thought as an effort to overturn the aristocratic hierarchy. But wait a minute maybe not as subversive as it sounds.
The Supreme Governor of the Church of England is a title held by the British monarch that signifies leadership over the Church of England. Since the English Reformation, the Church of England is a state church and the choice of archbishops is legally that of the Crown. - (today it is made in the name of the Sovereign by the Prime Minister, from a shortlist of two selected by an ad hoc committee called the Crown Nominations Commission.)
"By the Corporation Act of 1661, no one could enter a civic or municipal office unless he had taken the sacrament according to the rites of the Church of England. Under the Test Act of 1673, all who held offices under the Crown were required to take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, sign a declaration repudiating the doctrine of transubstantiation and to receive the sacrament according to the Church of England."
Although the basic concepts in the transmutation of species theory had been around for several centuries the church believed in Revelation rather than Natural theology therefore, any clergy as Reverend Jones would have been schooled under those who held church office under the Crown, who had taken oaths of allegiance to the Crown and received sacraments according to this church that championed Revelation over Natural theology. So it is amazing that William Buckland, an Anglican Minister championed geology and palaeontology which was overturning the aristocratic hierarchy.
I just wonder if Tracy Chevalier included the bit of William Buckland relieving himself out of doors - which think about it what did it add to the story except we see William Buckland as someone who is willing to break with social niceties because researching nature was more important than a refined sense of behavior, helping us see this man was a maverick who would plow ahead regardless of church accepted theology.
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I had no idea what Buckland urinating on the beach was to bring to the story. If anything I thought it was totally inappropriate and half expected to read he would make inappropriate gestures toward Mary or Fanny. The conversation between the girls while he was doing this, showed they were curious, asking if each other had ever seen that part of the man's body. That I felt was to show the girls were at the age of curiosity of the opposite sex. It just made no sense to put the entire situation in the story. But then again TC did say,
"By using fewer words, I am also giving readers the chance to fill the gaps with their own. "Less is more" encourages collaboration, which is what a book should be—a contract between writer and reader."
So, I guess we can speculate and fill in the gaps. I did not see him as a Maverick. I saw Buckland's behavior a bit perverted, him knowing how inappropriate it is to do something like this, knowing two single young girls were close by, and they knew what he was doing, not once, but many times. TC showed it caused the girls to think about his private part, which in my assessment, in today's world, would be a form of pervertedness, on his part. Maybe we will find out more inappropriate behavior from him in the next chapters. I am certain that if he would have been caught doing this, he could have been arrested for indecency, not to mention what it would have done to his reputation and the girls, had it been made public. Mary and Fanny's parents would have stopped them from going anywhere with him. if they would have known.
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Bellamarie I think it is so easy for us to use today's morals to suggest what behavior was appropriate - when I was a kid it was usual for men to stand by a curb to relieve themselves. It is why we kids were taught never to walk in the gutter -
As a kid I lived in several states and visited family where we had lived earlier and this was the way in the cities where there were streets with gutters in New York, Florida and Georgia - yes, today we agree, we would see this as perverted - I remember going to my first public rest room when I was 6 or 7 and asked my Mom why they built it - she said it was to stop folks from using the streets.
So I am thinking what seems inappropriate may not have been in early nineteenth century but then, without any historical reference as explanation by Chavelier for what purpose was it included in her story - surely not just for us to see curiosity between two girls and if so, why? And I am not sure there are many reading and explaining public behavior that was a norm up through the era before WWII so again, why? This appears to be a book about championing a developing science so why make it appear the Buckland was uncouth? It truly baffles me.
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I agree, Barb - it was a different time - AND a different place! When I was a girl, 26 or so, another young lady and I visited the south of France. I remember posting this in the Pre-discussion. My friend and I were sitting on the beach in Nice, leaning up against a sea wall, enjoying the view. We noticed some people staring at us...we thought because they were all in bikinis, and we were all covered up in our full American bathing suits. After a while, a young man walked up to the wall...and urinated. Followed by another...and we were out of there! This was simply what they did there. Different time, different place. The men thought nothing of it...never knew they were shocking us or that we were noticing them. It was simply a bodily function that needed to be attended to.
I read it that way - that Mr. Buckward was so involved in collecting, that when nature called, he did what he always did. The fact that these two ladies were watching him...never occurred to him. I didn't think him uncouth, but rather insensitive to these young ladies, his mind elsewhere. I think Chevalier included it to show those two were developing a curiosity about the opposite sex...
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If you look at the links that I left in Post #120, you can see who named the "ichthyosaurs " in 1840 along with a brief bio of the man.
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I didn't think that Buckland going down to the ocean with his back to the girls would be seen as inappropriate during that time.
There is a very interesting video on the "history of the bathroom" in England at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inoVg5a1kps&feature=relmfu
It seems there were periods when communal bath houses and public "loos," for men and women together, were the norm (not during Mary Anning's time ;)).
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ah yes marcie, forgot about non-sex public loos - my first was in France and then later in both Switzerland and Germany with several stalls with doors that were about 2 feet high and about 3 feet from the floor - quite an education. Plus paying the woman or man who stood where you entered handing you your allotted toilet tissue.
Hurray I found it - was I ever shocked - it was right up front third sentence out of the box -
Chapter 1 — In Chancery
LONDON. Michaelmas Term lately over, and the Lord Chancellor sitting in Lincoln’s Inn Hall. Implacable November weather. As much mud in the streets as if the waters had but newly retired from the face of the earth, and it would not be wonderful to meet a Megalosaurus, forty feet long or so, waddling like an elephantine lizard up Holborn Hill. Smoke lowering down from chimney-pots, making a soft black drizzle, with flakes of soot in it as big as full-grown snow-flakes — gone into mourning, one might imagine, for the death of the sun. Dogs, undistinguishable in mire. Horses, scarcely better; splashed to their very blinkers.
Yes, Ann you did find for us some great links, that being one of them - we forget as we read along and come upon this information fresh from another perspective - I think it sinks in a bit more with those of us who scrounge the internet looking and following clue after clue till we hit pay dirt.
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Thanks for finding that sentence, Barbara. Very interesting. I didn't remember it, though it seems a remarkable description.
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following the words about the mud and wet it was as if everything in the story was coming to light from deep in the earth - marcie for me that was the best read this year tied only with Ella's Those Angry Days- I enjoyed both discussions more than most in the past few years - you did a great job with Bleak House and bringing the anniversary of Dickens into our awareness. Having read Bleak House years before and seeing it on PBS, a very fine performance, I expected to be bored out of my skull and instead it was riveting.
JoanP "I think Chevalier included it to show those two were developing a curiosity about the opposite sex..." OK I'll go there but I am still scratching my head why? What is so important to the story to learn their growing interest in the opposite sex - I feel we are missing something - how could their interest in men be tied to this story that centers around fossil hunting and the particulars about how it is done and the selling of them after they are cleaned up. Maybe later chapters will make it clear but for now I do not get the importance to the story of a hint to their curiosity about men. Can you fill in the puzzle...
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Back on my #905 post I felt TC was showing us that Mary is now growing up and curious about the opposite sex, and also that it gave Mary and Fanny a friendship moment with each other. "Also, what are we to make of Mary becoming aware of her feelings for the opposite sex? I had to crack up with her conversation with Fanny about seeing a boy/man's body part. lolol Our Mary is growing up, and it did not surprise me Molly had to demand a chaperon for Mary's outings."
I understand the point each of you are making, that it may have been common behavior of men back then, in England, to relieve themselves in public. But I still felt uncomfortable reading Buckland would do such a thing, around two young, single girls. Mary's mother would not approve of this behavior, and I don't feel any parent would, regardless of the era, or place setting. This is why I have to wonder if Buckland does anything else inappropriate in the remaining chapters. Guess I will wait to see.
Marcie, "It seems there were periods when communal bath houses and public "loos," for men and women together, were the norm (not during Mary Anning's time ;))."
So did parents allow their young girls to go into same sex loos, and actually chance seeing strange men urinating? This is just so uncomfortable for me to imagine back then. Look how we protect our children and young daughters today from sexual predators. Did men not have the same unclean thoughts back then, as they do now? I don't think so, or why the need for a chaperon? TC makes such an issue in the story about Mary needing a chaperon with her to hunt on the public beach with Buckland, yet then she uses him urinating close by to show the girls are growing up and aware of the opposite sex body parts? This sure does baffle me. ??? ??? ???
Thank you for all your information. I am not trying to convince anyone to think as I do, I am just trying to make sense of this. It seems very contradictory and strange for TC to place it in the story.
Ciao for now!
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It's time to move on to Chapters 6 and 7 but so much in this book is so intertwined that we can continue to talk about whatever has captivated you.
Chapter 6 begins with Elizabeth's reflection that digging Mary out of the sand and rocks to save her life didn't bring them closer together but drove them apart.
I'm still pondering that beginning. It certainly caught my interest. I'm still trying to decipher it to see what Chevalier means by tying their being driven apart to Elizabeth saving Mary's life. What/who do you think are the catalysts that drive Elizabeth and Mary apart?
Barbara, your comments about the first sentences of Bleak House seem very appropriate to Remarkable Creatures too: "following the words about the mud and wet it was as if everything in the story was coming to light from deep in the earth."
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Well I have some reading cut out for me - have not started the next chapters but will - since this is a novel there is usually devises in a story used as - Metaphors, Symbols, Connotations, Allusion, Allegories, Similes - all along we have not been completely certain what is fiction and what is fact - we do know a few of the characters are factual however, do we actually know how they lived, how they expressed themselves, how the behaved - I have not read where there was a diary left including a day to day account of what they did or said and so I am thinking that is how Tracy Chevalier has fleshed out these characters but writing her ideas based on historical research how they behaved.
Buckland we know to be a real person however, we have no evidence to suggest that Fanny is real. We have agreed some posts back that Fanny probably represents the thinking of the villagers of the day and probably is rounded out with other bits of knowledge about some of the typical activities for young girls during this time in history and so I am thinking that the scenes that feature Fanny are likely to be part of the structure of the story, pushing the story along, allowing those who are real to act and think because a fictitious character is opening an area of life they can fill in. With out fictitious characters it would be a laundry list or litany of events that can be read in Biographies of these characters.
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As to your observation bellamarie - men having the same unclean thoughts back then, as they do now - Yes, probably so and that is why unmarried women had chaperones - there was a culture that went with chaperoning that men understood because certainly no girl or women could stop a man if he wanted to act -
I also do not think even a flasher thinks sex when he is relieving himself -
Imagining ourselves as best we can in this time period - there were no indoor loos - during dinner parties there was a screen set up with pots for men. Women had time after dinner in their drawing room where again, there was a screen set up with help to assist so women could navigate their dress. Folks were more aware of each others toilet and out of doors all classes used the woods, a patch of weeds, lakes, streams, and the poor just outside their living quarters.
Today those hiking or hunting or fishing use the weeds, lakes etc. not completely private from others passing by - during long hikes everyone knows and they just step off the trail but do not pretend to cover - A TV show last week about a small coastal charter. After fishing for several hours the groups are brought to a mangrove cove known as the place where fishermen stop for a potty break. The groups are mixed men and women and the woman who today runs the charter fished as a child with her parents and grandparents as generations before them all stopping at this cove for their potty break as did others in the area who fish this Southern stretch of the Atlantic. No privacy and no one wants to be wet for the rest of the day fishing in an open boat so it is not like taking a quick swim.
It does force us to stretch if we look at the world through our own experience in our typical neighborhoods. We have to find out how differently folks lived a couple of hundred years ago and how folks live today in various circumstances and various parts of the world, so I think we have to be careful how we interpret what we read in a novel.
With that, I too wonder why this incident with Buckland, Mary and Fanny was included in the novel - where I do not see it as a concern if the adults were made aware it seems a rough way for Tracy Chevalier to simply introduce to us that the girls were interested in men. I cannot imagine this would be for them new information or at least not for Mary who had at least one brother - her family all lived cheek to jowl as well as, both girls had to have seen other men relieve themselves.
I wonder if the quote from Dickens fits that marcie suggests is also emblematic of this story - I cannot see this episode being used to round out the character of any of the other males in the story except those who are in the wet and mud hunting - is this a way of showing Buckland coming from the wet and mud into the light that symbolically he had to be shown in the wet and mud as he then slowly emerging from the mud - slowly since he is not skilled in getting help quickly for Mary yet, he was attempting to do the work of those who were skilled, familiar with and dependent on the beaches and cliffs of Lyme. Is this incident showing him trying to be the 'tuppence type'.
I still think that there will be something in the chapters ahead that will have us banging our forehead like a V8 commercial when we put this together.
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I honestly did not consider what Buckland did on the beach as anything other than normal. I suspect that Mary may also have relieved herself at times, but probably picked a more private spot.. I too grew up where it was not considered abnormal for males to urinate in semi public areas and all over
Germany and France, it seems to be acceptable out inthe country.
I puzzle onto why Elizabeth thought that Mary was pulling away. I think Mary was simply growing up and that Elizabeth did not seem to take that into consideration.
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Oh my heavens Barband Steph, you have truly brought to light information I had never imagined. lolol Screens for men to pee in pots....lololol Now that is hilarious as I visualize it. Ok, for now I am going to stop letting myself wonder about why on earth TC felt it necessary to use this device to make the readers aware of the girls growing up, and becoming aware of the opposite sex and their private parts. Phew.....now for the next chapters.
I must share a little story before I go on....I own my in home day care, and one day while we were all playing outside at the swing set my little 4 yr old boy, just unzipped his jeans, and lo and behold, shot a stream at my fence. The little 4 yr old girl just stared and said, "Nonnie, Aiden is going potty on the fence." She was mortified!!! :o I could not believe my eyes, and his older brother said, "My Daddy lets him do that all the time." Needless to say we had to have a talk about privacy, and proper places for going potty. ;D
Elizabeth and Mary are drifting apart so it seems. This does not surprise me, considering Mary is growing up. Mary has gotten the help she needed to get her fossils beyond Lyme Regis, and many people from all over the world are now interested in coming, to hunt and see the creatures that Mary has found, and what they can also find themselves. Elizabeth being the age she is, I can not see where their relationship would continue, at the same level as when it began. Sort of a bit melancholy, but that is how relationships go, is it not?
Ciao for now~
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I've been noticing the little hand-written sentences on the pages preceding each chapter - they seem to reveal the content of the upcoming chapter. Before Chapter Six:
" A little in love with him myself"
Is that the answer then? Are Mary and Elizabeth interested in the same man - each thinking she has a better chance? Mary isn't interested in a Lyme Regis man, but has reason to believe their common interest will bring them closer. Look how she is primping now, turning to Margaret for advice and beauty secrets.
Elizabeth too, reasoning that they are intellectually suited for one another...similar social standing too. Is he interested in her though? Sad the way he forgot her dinner invitation...
It will be interesting to see if he ever becomes interested in a woman by the book's end. But he's not showing interest in the Lyme Regis gals- other than in their knowledge of fossils. I don't see him as playing one against another, but I do see him as the catalyst who is driving the two friends apart.
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Barbara, good points about the differences in what is acceptable at different times. Maybe the "peeing in the ocean" scene is there to give one more item of information about the times --what was part of the daily life -- as well as to provide another opportunity to see that Mary was growing up and thinking about the opposite sex.
Steph, maybe in this next chapter we will see more "pulling away" between the two women. Joan, some of those sentences preceding each chapter seem revealing to me and some I have had a difficult time figuring out. I think you're right that Mary and Elizabeth may both be interested in the man who is paying attention to their pursuits. Bellamarie, yes, I too think that it would be difficult to maintain a relationship between them because of the age and "class" difference but they do share a common interest, a deep passion, that no one else seems to understand. I think that something would need to drive them apart rather than their drifting apart.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/remarkablecover2.jpg) | In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis. To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.
Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This is the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day. |
November 1-8 Chapters 1-3
November 9-15 Chapters 4-5
November 16-22 Chapters 6-7
November 23-30 Chapters 8-10
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/ammonite.jpg) |
SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 6-7
Chapter 6 begins with Elizabeth's reflection that digging her out of the sand and rocks to save Mary's life didn't bring them closer together but drove them apart. What/who are the catalysts that drive Elizabeth and Mary apart?
What do Elizabeth and Mary each think of the men who come into their lives, Mr. Buckland and Lt. Colonel Birch? How do each of them react to each of the men and to each other?
What is your opinion of Lt. Col. Birch? Do any of his actions cause your view of him to change during the chapter?
What happens at the end of Chapter 6 to cause Elizabeth to weep, not for Mary but for herself?
What do you think of the confrontation between Elizabeth and Mary in Chapter 7? What seems to be happening to their relationship?
How does Mary change and what causes her to do so? Does Mary learn anything, or come to terms with anything, about her life?
Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4019.0); Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJEbfYNh9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCiJEbfYNh9E); The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG);
DLs: AdoAnnie (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com), Marcie (marciei@aol.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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sorry am playing catch up with re-reading to keep current and not give the later chapters into our talk
but BarbStAubrey--how on earth do you cross reference to be able to get a ``Bleak House `reference to coincide with our current book...amazing! r142
bookad
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I am posting this in the race to catch up but the reference to Buckland urinating and not paying mind to the ladies I was wondering showed his not being concerned with them as they were of a lesser linage, inferior class, and not to be concerned with; so he just used the facilities at hand
bookad
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You could be right, bookad. Buckland doesn't seem to be very concerned with the niceties or emotional life of people, of whatever class. He seems very focused on what he cares about and that seems to be fossils.
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Oh yes, that is the best yet isn't it since we learn in this chapter he does not even think to pay for the doctor care for Fanny much less Mary since he did have the money and he had to be blind to everything not to realize these two girls were living in poverty - Molly sure keeps coming up showing us her strong sense of integrity - I am impressed.
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Here's what puzzles me. We know Mary Anning, Elizabeth Philpot and William Buckland were all real people, not Chevalier's fiction. Is she taking liberties creating a triangle here for Buckland's affection...or is there documented evidence somewhere, letters or something...that confirm both had feelings for the same man? Are you reading this as fiction?
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Chevalier might be surmising that the two women, one a spinster and one a young woman who also probably doesn't see much of a future for herself with any man around Lyme, would size up almost any man who takes an interest in what they are doing as a potential suitor. I don't think it's a "triangle" since Buckland doesn't seem interested in either of them in that way.
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My opinion of the col. changed somewhat when, after learning of Mary's plight, he held the auction to raise money for the family and to give Mary credit. I am glad he did that.
Sally
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"I don't think it's a "triangle" since Buckland doesn't seem interested in either of them in that way."
Well, okay - it wouldn't strain credibility to surmise that both of these women would consider this unattached young man who obviously shows such interest in their pursuits a "potential suitor" - but did the author go beyond ...Do you feel she went too far in explicitly describing Mary's relationship with Col. Birch? She must have been basing this on more than village gossip- (..referring to the last meeting between Mary and the colonel, which Mary initiated.) Do you think that this too is something Ms. Chevalier "surmised" occurred - for the sake of her story?
Sally, my opinion of him changed too. I was more surprised than anything else. The second man who took what was Mary's and claimed as his own. Why do you think he reacted to E. Philpot's words in this extremely generous way? Was he just now realizing how he had left Mary? Maybe I'm cynical. I think this really occurred, that the Colonel actually sold off his collection and paid Mary Anning from the proceeds - but for reasons other than stated here.
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I guess I am maybe the only one who thinks of Mary as Elizabeths surrogate daughter.. It just strikes me that Elizabeth needs someone to teach and love..
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I too feel both women were vying for a life with someone interested in their interest of 'fossils' and better yet of a class move 'up the ladder' .....sadly for them he wasn't interested in either Mary or Elizabeth; but if he had married one of them what would their future look like, perhaps he would have insisted they remain in their home and not doing unlady like pursuits as walking by themselves thru all types of weather along shorelines
it was so nice to read that the colonel could have some compassion and do something so uncharacteristic for the men of his class who had been taking advantage of Mary's help and knowledge in searching for fossils.
....was that fiction or fact !!!!!!!!!
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Lt. Colonel Birch is markedly different from Mr. Buckland. He definitely means to make an impression. He drops the Lt. and wears his uniform everywhere even though he is retired. He is gregarious and does pay attention to women. I picture him as an older Willoughby (from Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility). I don't think he meant to hurt Mary. He, like Willoughby, is attractive, very attracted to women, spontaneous, thinks mostly about his own situation .... and is without funds.
My opinion of him changed for the better when he held the auction. He seemed to genuinely care for (maybe even be in love with) Mary. However he needs to marry a woman of means since he has no money of his own.
Here is a different view of Birch at http://fossilsandotherlivingthings.blogspot.com/2010/01/paleontologist-mary-anning-deserved.html. He interprets Chevalier's portrayal of Birch as being a cad. He cites a couple of biographies of Mary and how they portray Lt. Col Birch.
What do you think of Colonel Birch?
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Steph, I totally agree with you. I do see Eliz as a surrogate mother to Mary. Maybe, Mary's mother Molly does too, and that would explain the jealousy. Since Molly is taking more control with Mary's fossils, I can see less of Eliz in the story.
Ciao for now~
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I see Elizabeth wanting to protect Mary from those who take advantage of her...much as a mother would do. But more, I see her as a friend to Mary...and a mentor.
Gosh, Marcie. The Amazon review you posted completely debunks Chevalier's portrayal of the the colonel!
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Joan, I too think that Elizabeth is acting as a friend and mentor for Mary.
Steph and Bellamarie, I do see some motherly instincts... and I see some jealousy too.
Joan, yes, that review does portray Birch as unfeeling.
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Elizabeth considers herself a spinster, yet finds herself hoping for more...first when Mr. Buckland comes on the scene and shows interest in her fossil fish...and then Col. Birch. She found him attractive, though he treats her fish fossils with sarcasm. Elizabeth didn't forget the fact that he showed no interest in her - or in her fish.
She didn't trust him...or any man "who leads with his hair." I think I understand what she means by that. I've always been turned off by men who are preoccupied with their hair.
Chevalier has portrayed Elizabeth as a judge of character, even though her judgement is clouded by her personal disappointment in the colonel's lack of romantic interest in her. Was she fair in her accessment?
The man is a "collector." The question seems to be...is he in Lyme Regis to collect Mary's specimens, or is he also looking for a little romance? I thought it might have been wishful thinking on Mary's part, until she confesses that he's kissing her.
Was Elizabeth right not to trust him? Is he taking advantage of Mary's infatuation - for the world to see? Poor Elizabeth! What would you have done in her position? What COULD you have done?
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I think Elizabeth went from being a confirmed spinster to a woman who saw a man that appealed to her. He was after someone with money, so she didnt suit.. I was holding my breath about Mary because I honestly thought he was trying to have his way with her for no reason other than he could.
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As you say, Joan, Elizabeth does seem interested in Buckland, though he seems insensitive to anyone's attention to him, and she gives up on him. I do think that, as you said, Steph, she is attracted to Birch, who is very attractive to women. She doesn't perceive him as bad enough to turn her off completely.
And I do think that she is jealous of Mary so that her warnings to her don't seem to Mary to be solely in her best interest. She detects Elizabeth's jealousy. I don't see what Elizabeth can do, given that her own feelings keep getting in the way when she tries to talk to Mary.
Mary seems to be completely infatuated. I still am seeing Chevalier's interpretation of Birch as a "Willoughby" character -- and seeing him as caring for Mary but not enough to marry her in his financial circumstances.
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Finally finished the chapter last night - I am not seeing Elizabeth as falling for any of these guys - I think she is coming to terms with what it means to be a single women at this time in history and because of her class, she feels bound by social mores that she sees are not expected of Mary.
I do not think she is so much jealous of Mary as jealous of the freedom she sees Mary take and how Mary can freely fantasize that a man will give her serious attention so that Mary is willing to be a doormat for the Colonial where as, Elizabeth is not willing to sell her soul as it appears she sees it, just to have a man and yet, she knows that is what is required.
The difference I think is the women who do marry are willing to do what it takes which is somewhat softened by their romantic inner feelings attracting them to certain men that we read about in Persuasion - none of these men show the care for either woman that we saw shown by Captain Wentworth. I see no romantic attraction between Elizabeth and any of the male characters. I see her balancing her freedom to hunt versus being tied to a man and his home that will allow her to feel she is successful as a woman.
I see the entire chapter a litany of acceptable social behaviors for a young married woman that Elizabeth feels acutely in London. I also see the experience sneaking off with her brother as a way to slip in her unheralded contribution to science.
The Colonial may have sold his collection at auction and he may have announced to the world the value Mary has to collectors however, the idea that the Colonial had a fit of conscious to me is pure fiction -
I have yet to hear of or see a man who takes a woman for granted in his aim for success and have any inkling how that behavior is hurtful - I think it is fantasy for anyone to imagine they are going to be acknowledged with apology like behavior that comes from a true recognition by the perpetrator of the injury they caused. That would be like denying their own core that includes doing whatever it takes for their personal success.
Once they make it and are at the top of their game they may give homage to all the folks who helped them get there but they do not question their own behavior that got them there. As to the Colonial - he wanted his collection to be seen and so rather than donate it to a museum knowing no museum could pay him what he could gain by an auction - he also looked at the brinksmanship of all these scientific collectors coming to him to further their own collections.
I see this auction accomplishing much for the Colonial and by recognizing Mary again, he adds to his own luster - if this was only about compensating Mary, the Annings would have been pleased with far less than the proceeds of this auction - as the head of a charity for the Annings this was a coup that may have been the basis of the money Mary used to buy her house on Broad Street. But as written, as a mea culpa to his treatment of Mary I believe is poetic license by Tracy Chevalier.
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I appreciate your interpretation, Barbara. Chevalier is certainly able to create a very detailed world ... that we can agree with or dissent from.
I found the ending of Chapter 6 very interesting. What happens at the end of this chapter to cause Elizabeth to weep, not for Mary but for herself?
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Elizabeth seems to have realized that Mary will become famous, but that
Elizabeth and her fish never will to that extent, at least that is how I thought of her tears..
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I think I got carried away when reading the chapter; thinking like a harlequin romance that 'happily eve-after ' would follow.....but when I think of it, even with 'pygmalion' Eliza did not get her professor...he was so involved in his inner world of friends and pursuits , he only used Eliza to prove a point .....these men in the novel were using Mary to follow and further their education of their interests, and better themselves in the eyes of their peers; that would never involve marrying a lower class woman.
I do wish somewhere the author had followed up on her 'leading with their eyes, nose etc' and curious as to where that came from for her
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So these chapters are dealing with the possible love stories in Mary and Eliz's life. I liked the time Birch and Mary had, while he was in Lyme. It was nice to see Mary happy, hopeful and in love. I think Birch was a bit smitten with Mary, even though he had other motives for befriending her. Eliz showed a side of herself that I did not care for. She was begrudging Mary a chance for attention and happiness. Why? I realize she wanted Birch to show her his attention, considering she was more age and social appropriate, but she really got mean spirited.
Marcie, "I found the ending of Chapter 6 very interesting. What happens at the end of this chapter to cause Elizabeth to weep, not for Mary but for herself?"
I think Eliz's tears were for many reasons, I think she was grateful Birch proved to do the right and decent thing, by holding the auction for Mary and her family. I also saw her tears of relief, from all the worry, and disappointment that she had been feeling, thinking Birch was such a horrible man, who used Mary for his own gain. She also was elated to know Mary would not only get a financial windfall from the auction, but she also gets the recognition so well deserved. I'm not sure Mary's tears had anything to do with her own self, unless she has come to terms of being a spinster, which she would be sad about, realizing there is no hope for her to experience the kiss of a man, the love of a spouse, or the joy of having a child of her very own. She may see her sister as a hopeless romantic, reading Jane Austin's love stories, that end happily ever after, but in all reality Eliz showed in these two chapters it is something she was hoping for herself, with either Buckland or Birch. Her jealousy of the attention Birch gave to Mary was so sad to read. Can they maintain their friendship, even after Eliz being indirectly a part of Mary getting her just due from Birch?
Ciao for now~
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I am having the same difficulty Steph wrote of earlier - separating fact from fiction - especially when I reached the scene where Mary and Colonel Birch "coupled" in the orchard. At first I was somewhat outraged - these were two real people, not able to defend themselves from what was simply gossip about them when they lived. But Ms. Chevalier is writing fiction, isn't she? That means that she has a license to write her story as she sees it. I'm trying to read the story as fiction.
I'm with Elizabeth. I think Birch took advantage of our Mary. Although she is of age - she's 21. At least he told her he can not marry her. Have to give him that... Elizabeth feels that he is not an honorable man -
She told Margaret, referring directly to Jane Austen's Persuasion-
"Life itself is far messier and didn't end so tidily with the heroine making the right match. We Philpot sisters were the very embodiement of that frayed life. I did not need novels to remind me of what I missed."
I think that's why Elizabeth wept - for the life she knows she missed - and the life she feels Mary will miss.
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That whole little episode has caused me great trouble. It simply did not fit into the rest of the book for me.. Maybe the requisite romance.. hmm. I am deciding to ignore it completely.
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Steph, I have to admit there are a few things I have had to choose to ignore, because I see it just not making sense to the storyline. It's almost like our author is a bit clumsy with trying to create romance for the story. Eliz thinks these men are not honorable for Mary, yet Chavelier allows Eliz to hope she could have them for herself. Why on earth would anyone want a man who she sees not honorable for her friend. When may I ask did Birch manage to kiss Mary, without her chaperon Eliz seeing? I felt like when that was revealed it was going to prove Mary made this up, because this just doesn't fit. Also, Birch holding the auction, AFTER Eliz speaks with him did not ring true for me. He goes to Lyme for selfish reasons to add to his personal collection, he befriends Mary, takes the finds and claims them as his own (full well knowing Mary found them and allowed him to think he did), then a talk with Eliz he just decides to hold the auction and get rid of his collection. That is just too drastic for me. I seriously could not believe this.
I have been reading the entire book as fiction, only acknowledging the truth of the fossils, museums, and the actual names of these people we know lived. As for their feelings and interactions, I just find too many inconsistencies. I can't even relate to this story taking place in the 1800's, because for some reason I keep feeling the author has modernized it. I have read many of Jane Austin's books and other books that take place in this era, and felt as if I was actually there in that time frame. I am not feeling it in this book. Eliz, sneaking out, walking alone in Bath, entering the museum, approaching Col. Birch, catching a cab, none of this fits for me. Her entire reactions to Mary and Birch turns Eliz's character into an entirely different person, yet the author is trying to convince the reader she still has Mary's best interest at heart.
Chavelier is losing me, or maybe I lost my interest after knowing too much about the factual characters and their real lives. I like where you can fill in the gaps, (as Chavelier stated), but I don't like Rubik's cube, where characters are being twisted and turned to fit scenes that don't seem to fit in the storyline. IMO
Ciao for now~
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I appreciate everyone's perspectives. I agree that in a historical novel it IS difficult to know what is fiction and what is based strictly on facts -- unless one has studied a lot about the life of the person. Since we don't know of any diaries, it seems that Chevalier is filling in many gaps with her own interpretations. It did seem a little out of character for Mary to initiate a "love" scene with Birch, though she is an outsider from her society and thinks this will be her only chance to be with a man.
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I was curious about what the Rules of Etiquette were back in England in the 1800's, because after reading Mary and Birch had kissed, it seemed by right he would have had to marry her. This site also addresses how women were not allowed to walk alone in public, streets and sidewalks as Eliz was doing, nor could they attend functions without a chaperon, such as the auction she went to by herself, or ride in a cab alone. So it seems our author has gone outside the rules of England's societal etiquette in many areas where Mary and Eliz are concerned.
I found this site interesting because it deals with authors, and how they MUST stay within the confines of these rules, when writing a love story or love interests, in this time era, in England.
http://www.auroraregency.com/2011/03/etiquette-and-customs-courtship-in.html
Women had to wait for men to make the first move. They couldn't express interest in a young man openly, and had to resort to the time-honored methods of using go-betweens (a friend or her brother) to drop a hint to the fellow in question. They couldn't even dance with the same man more than twice in the same night--I'll get into the etiquette of the ballroom in a later post. If I go into that now, there won't be another post on the front page of the blog this one will be so long. And until the man made his intentions known--i.e. proposed to the young lady and was accepted--the girl had to behave as if she had no clue he was interested at all. She definitely couldn't confess to him that she loved him. She couldn't indicate by sign, expression or behavior that she was aware of any interest on his part in her person. (Which, if you think about it, goes a long way to explain Jane Bennet's behavior toward Mr. Bingley in the beginning.)
So when you're writing a traditional Regency romance, these rules and customs must play a big part in the establishment of your story. On one hand, working with and around these things is a pain. As I said earlier--it's really hard to write a love scene between two people who can't be alone together, touch each other, or use each other's first name.
The most intricate and complex rules of Regency etiquette had to do with courtship and the behavior of young women--and woe betide the Society miss who broke any of this rules! Getting drummed out of Society was the least heinous penalty involved; the worst would be getting forced into marriage with some man she loathed because she was silly enough to appear overly affectionate.
So, in all reality, Mary's mother could have demanded Birch marry her daughter. This is possibly why Louisa wrote the letter to Birch. She knew of the kiss and rightfully so, Birch could have been forced to marry Mary. Who was really looking out for Mary's best interest? Imagine how her life would have changed had they married, she was obviously in love with him. I did not see Mary, the initiator, if anything I saw both she and Birch having equal flirtatiousness, and he being older, should have kept her reputation from being in question. Regardless of their difference in age or social status, he should have done right by her and married her, since he went far beyond what was allowed in being with her. I didn't like how Chavelier threw in the kiss, and yet there is no mention of where, when and how often it happened, especially since Eliz was suppose to be the chaperon.
Ciao for now~
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Thanks for looking up those rules, bellamarie. The Mary in the book was definitely outside of society. All her young life she didn't adhere to their rules. Just walking the beaches all day by herself and digging in the sand with her grubby fingers and nails would be unacceptable "in society."
I agree that they were both flirtatious. I think in their final meeting Chevalier shows Mary as the one who waits for Birch and initiates the horseback ride and sexual encounter. It's what she wanted for her 21st birthday. That's not to say that Birch couldn't have said no.
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Yes I too was getting itchy and could not figure it out - the whole bit about arranging the auction for the benefit of Mary got under my skin - even today as you say, Bellamarie no one much less a women in one conversation could convince a man, who is on his way to making a name for himself that he should stop and acknowledge all those who he took advantage of in order to get where he is...
I do see how the auction could benefit him and I can even see how bringing the audiences attention to Mary could benefit him - but the love life as written would not even fit my generation over a hundred years later - it is definitely the stuff of after the 1960s. And here we worry about reading a novel if we can put ourselves in the shoes of the times while we have an author who does not seem to be able to do that. Great research Bellamarie - we can all breath now and realize the itch we felt while reading was a clue.
Now I am not sure how to approach this story trying to figure out her point - if it is to show the differences in being a women scientist during the early nineteenth century we almost have to use our research about the real Mary and Elizabeth - the story certainly does a great job of bringing the scientific community of the time to our attention.
It has been fun finding the tidbits about Lyme and fossils - if we are to realize they were two women destined to stay unmarried and are considered different by the village we do get the message - is she also trying to let us know that men at the time were cads. Either dying and leaving families penniless or marrying and sending unmarried sisters off to a less expensive rural lifestyle or taking advantage of a woman's skill and interest when they show it in more than women's work or giving them stock answers to serious questions unfolding before their eyes. Is there one admirable guy among these characters??!!??
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I am going to play devil's advocate. I am hoping, believing, wanting to believe there were women back then who even with the 'rules' of society about how women should behave etc, surely there were those who were outside these rules and moved to 'their own drummer', especially Mary, who as a lower class woman....who was taken out searching for fossils, must have many times done this by herself, becoming very unkempt and with sand in her clothes, hands dirty, nails broken, clothes in disarray from scratching at the surface areas before she had her hammer her dad made.....well all this was outside how women of this era generally behaved, .....doing things differently could lead to ideas outside the general code leading to further ideas outside of 'ok' behaviour and to her laying in the grass and consequently the lovemaking.
what do you think?
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I think you're on to something, Deb. The women who were writing during this time, Jane Austin, let's say, were very careful to stay within the boundaries, the expectations of ladylike behavior in the upper class women in particular. Tracy Chevalier can allow
Elizabeth Philpot more freedom while living in Lyme, with no supervision. Eliz is freer to make her own choices...though she takes care not to be noticed. This tells us that she is aware that she goes beyond accepted behavior when stepping out alone without a chaperone.
Mary Anning is something else. Pretty much running wild on the beach from morning til night. only sometimes with a chaperone, arranged by her mother - when she heard people talking about Mary's behavior. Women like Mary had very little hope that any guy would marry her, her reputation is shot. I'm not sure Col. Birch knows he's her first.
Who asked about the men in the story? Barb? I thought William Buckward was a good man - An honorable man to be relied on.
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Those are good points, bookad. I think everyone is making good points to back up their interpretations of the story and Mary's behavior.
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JoanP., " Tracy Chevalier can allow Elizabeth Philpot more freedom while living in Lyme, with no supervision."
As you can see Chevalier has allowed Eliz to return to Bath and act as careless, and out of societal acceptance here in a bigger city, as she has in Lyme.
"Eliz is freer to make her own choices...though she takes care not to be noticed. This tells us that she is aware that she goes beyond accepted behavior when stepping out alone without a chaperon."
She is being overly noticed going into a museum of many socialites, confronting Birch, drawing much attention to herself to the point others are staring at her. It can be misinterpreted as a lover's quarrel to some, as it is stated. She is being gawked at walking down the streets, with everyone noticing she is alone without a chaperon. Not to mention going into the auction sitting in a room of men.
I could almost accept Chevalier making Eliz a bit of a rebel with more freedom, in a small town like Lyme Regis, but now that she is doing far more absurd/unacceptable things in a larger city where she could embarrass her brother, her family name, not to mention mar her own reputation, this I just can't see happening back in the 1800's, when women were so careful not to bring shame to herself or family. Too many inconsistencies for me. Other than the fossils being the story, I feel our author has gotten very clumsy in creating the interaction of her characters. I realize Chevalier can take all the liberties she wishes as the author to her story, but as an author, I feel you have the responsibility to maintain a certain amount of truths regarding behaviors, etiquette etc,. when writing about certain eras, in order to make the readers believe the author is familiar and knowledgeable of such. I feel these last few chapters are all over the place, possibly the story got away from Chevalier. I feel Chevalier went from telling a story about fossils, to trying to turn it into a Jane Austin, love story/destined spinster story, with the hopes and possibilities of finding love and happiness. It might have worked for me, if I had not just came off of reading Jane Austin's Persuasion, making Chevalier's inconsistencies more obvious. Jane Austin stayed within the boundaries when writing I feel because she is writing in, and living in the 1800's. It is evident Chevalier has only lived in England a few years in the 21st Century. Austin allowed some of her women characters some leeway in being feisty, and a bit rebellious, if and when Austin's characters did act out of societal behavior, it ended in marriage or shame, as I recall. So far, in Remarkable Creatures, none of the accountability expected has taken place. Chevalier's men and women characters are running ramshod.
Ciao for now~
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Yes, yes,,, the encounter for Mary struck me as contemporary.. Even though Mary was lower class. They still obeyed certain rules.. A kiss would be permitted, but the sex.. makes no sense. Oh well. Sex sells novels.
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Perhaps a movie is in the works, Steph! That would explain the inclusion of that scene in the orchard.
The rift between Mary and Elizabeth seems permanent, doesn't it? Such hurtful things said. Can a simple apology repair this friendship? Elizabeth realizes that Mary has something she will never have. Someone loves her. Mary seems convinced of this. THere is no one in Elizabeth's life who feels this way about her. And it seems that beneath it all, Mary understands that a man like Colonel Birch will never marry a girl like her...which is why she hurls those insults at Elizabeth - her life, her sisters...and her silly fish fossils!
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Maybe the inclusion of the risk-taking behavior on the part of Mary and Elizabeth makes a more emphatic emphasis on the "rules" and how remarkable their work --and what it took to pursue it -- actually was. Neither of them was content to just sit by and stop their pursuit of their passions for the sake of fitting in.
JoanP, yes the rift between Mary and Elizabeth seems insurmountable. What will it take to get them back on the same team?
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I can't imagine the relationship of Mary and Eliz ever being anything more than mere passing on the street, and idle politeness if possible. They already were estranged, with Mary falling for Birch and spending so much time with him. Eliz was jealous and some of her actions may have seemed to be out of concern for Mary, but I sense behind them were her attempt to chastise Birch for so much as showing Mary any attention at all, since she herself wanted him.
The entire apple orchard scene was so out of nowhere, it was awkward reading it. It was like I was reading a Harlequin romance novel.
pg. 222 " An orchard at the bottom of the field waited for us. When I lay down with Colonel Birch it was on a sheet of apple blossom petals covering the ground like snow. There I found out that lightning can come from deep inside the body. I have no regret discovering that."
pg. 224 "Everything is so big and old and far away," I said sitting up with the force of it. "God help me, for it does scare me." Colonel Birch put his hand on my head and stroked my hair, which was all matted from my lying on the ground. "There is no need for fear." he said, "for you are here with me."
So the readers are left to believe Mary decided to have one chance at sex, since she knew there is no way any man would marry her. And seeing Fanny with a husband was to show what, that even she with her gimp leg was able to get married? Chevalier can't make up her mind if she wants Birch to be a cad, or a hero. First he comes to Lyme to befriend Mary to take advantage of her fossil finding skills, he runs off to showcase them as his own in the museum, then a talk with Eliz, he auctions them off and gives money and recognition to Mary, yet he comes back to Lyme and tells Mary he will never marry her, yet has sex with her in an orchard. Then tells her, "you are here with me"....REALLY? Is this a dream Mary is having and will wake up to see she imagined the entire scene? I am serious, I did think she was daydreaming this entire scene from the time he arrives at her home, til the end of the chapter. Leaves me wondering and shaking my head ::) ::) ::)
Ciao for now~
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I thought that exact same thing, Bellamaria! That Mary had dreamed the whole thing...or that it was wishful thinking - daydreaming as you put it. Maybe it was? Maybe this is what Chevalier meant with this scene?
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Or an extension of her fantasy conversations with Margaret. That is what crossed my mind. Then Elizabeth would have been privy to the ridiculous. This is like watching something surreal - a Dali painting -
Had this been taking place in the US I could imagine since we hear lots of these kind of tales in nineteenth century rural America - what was that one about the husband stealing off to go sleigh riding with the maid or maybe it was a sister because his wife was a cranky unwilling companion and they have an accident so this new love has to be taken care of by the cranky wife and the love interest becomes as cranky if not more so than the wife - the story is not as explicit but there is more than mere flirtation. There are others that take place mostly in the west and then we have the Scarlet Letter that although shunned by the community there was still love between the sheets.
Hmmm maybe we are making too close a comparison to some of the Jane Austin stories because there is one - forget which - is it Pride and Prejudice, where the younger sister or maybe it was a friend has an inappropriate affair with a soldier.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/remarkablecover2.jpg) | In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis. To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.
Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This is the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day. |
November 1-8 Chapters 1-3
November 9-15 Chapters 4-5
November 16-22 Chapters 6-7
November 23-30 Chapters 8-10
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/ammonite.jpg) |
SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 8-10
1. Were you surprised to learn that months after their "fight" Mary had sold another creature to Col. Birch - a new one, called a Plesiosaurus. Who identified and named this specimen?
2. How do Mary Anning and Elizabeth regard the fossils they collected? Works of art or bones of the dead? What does this tell about each character?
3. The Western Flying Post described Mary's next find as "something different from an Ichthyosaurus and a Plesiosaurus," though William Buckland tells Elizabeth it is a Plesiosaurus. Where would the newspaper have gotten this information? How did Elizabeth describe it when she entered Mary's workroom?
4. Why did Cuvier reject Mary's description of her latest find? How did Elizabeth Philpot get involved this time?
5. More lightning bolts! How does Chevalier describe their occurance in Mary's life? Do you remember any specific instances?
6. How has Elizabeth changed since her rift with Mary and her journey alone to London? Do you recall the metaphor Mary/Chevalier used to describe how she appears now?
7. Lots of Information mentionned in the Postscripts at the end of the book. Which caught your attention?
8. Your overall rating of the book - how many stars? (one to five scale) Would you recommend it to a friend?
Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4019.0); Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJEbfYNh9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCiJEbfYNh9E); The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG);
DLs: AdoAnnie (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com), Marcie (marciei@aol.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Hmm you really have me thinking now - seems to me Colonel Brandon rushes off to the daughter of his youthful flame, both of these women were ill used by men - yes, again shame -
I wonder if it is a class thing and Mary would fit so that Elizabeth is as upset about her class status and the cage it puts her in - that she too hunts fossils and she was the one who educated Mary to her finds but here she is relegated to the back waters of Lyme, with little to no recognition of her work, and no love in her life - not sure if for her it is even about love - it seems to be more about her place and the freedom she would have in society as a married lady - almost like the Fanny Brice story made popular by Barbara Streisand, "Sadie, Sadie Married Lady" regardless of love.
I get the impression few among the upper classes could afford love - it is all about suitable incomes where as, the poor, that would include the Annings could experience love as so many girls and women were taken advantage of that they had different boundaries between men and women. It was only the community they lived in they had to satisfy or be pushed down further as someone any Tom Dick and Harry could have his way.
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Alas! I found it, yes, it was Pride and Prejudice, Lydia Bennett at the age of 16, ran off with Mr. Wickham. They returned on her wedding day and it says, "Lydia was Lydia still_untamed, unabashed, wild, noisy and fearless.
Also it was Mr. Darcy, who went to take care of the matter and made Wickham decide to marry Lydia. Mr. Bennett refused to give any expense to the wedding, he was so shamed by her actions. It stated, "He MUST marry her."
So while Mary Anning is certainly no Lydia Bennett, I still feel "if" the kiss and sex took place, regardless of her social status, by the rules of society he MUST marry her. This is why I think the entire scene was a daydream of Mary's.
Ciao for now~
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Am I the only poster in here who hasn't read Jane Austen?? I did make a promise to Mary Page that I would read "Pride and Prejudice" but just haven't had the extra time lately. Too much going on at SL and medically at our house including a mild auto accident, have taken me away from being a regular here.
Marcie, I do agree with your thoughts about Mary and Liz. This is HISTORICAL FICTON. But its most interesting to read Bella's findings about the true social mores at that time of the 19th Century. Having said that, I found the "orchard coupling" that JoanP mentions a bit out of context for this novel. But, did enjoy all the rules being broken by both women, in their own way.
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As everyone has said, there were lots of societal rules in place -- Historically, I don't know how frequently they were broken. Perhaps, quite a bit.
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Annie, I had never read Jane Austen until a few years back. My first of her books was Sense and Sensibility. I remember it was very difficult for me to get adjusted to her style and voice of the English 1800's. I thought geez, she sure does use a whole lot of words just to say a simple thing. lolol Pride and Prejudice is truly my favorite of hers. Once you read one, you just can't stop. She was back then, like the Danielle Steele, of today's romance novels. Although, I could never lessen Jane Austen's beautiful writing, by the comparison. Jane Austen for me is Camelot.
Ciao for now~
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Though the author writes of the same period, sets the story in the same location, even has Jane Austen visit the Annings' home, Tracy Chevalier's story does have a more contemporary "feel" about than Jane Austen. I don't find this as off-putting as some of you do. Maybe it's because I don't believe that the "societal rules" that governed the circles of which Jane Austen wrote, actually applied to everyone...even at that time.
I agree with you, Marcie. Those rules were most likely broken quite a lot. Surely there were secret stolen kisses...and more likely than not, there were unwitnessed scenes like those in the orchard even at this time. Who was to say that Colonel Birch must marry Mary Anning? Who even knew about it? It would have been a different story had she been pregnant, don't you think?
There appears to be a permanent rift between Mary and Elizabeth...clearly painful to both of them. But what of Mary and the Colonel after their last meeting when he came to Lyme to deliver the proceeds of the auction?
Were you surprised to learn that months after their "fight" Mary had sold yet another creature to Col. Birch - a new one, called a Plesiosaurus. Surely this one is even more important ...and valuable than the Ichie in the story of evolution? It would seem the Colonel's collecting days are not over...
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Mary really thinks of her finds as sources of income so I was not surprised at her sale.. If Mary had enjoyed a kiss or two, that would make sense in the novel, but sex.. still simply does not fit the novel at all.
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Mary was in love/infatuated for the very first time. The author shows her as giving up her fossil hunting for a long while....taking to her bed... being in a daze... all over Birch. We can see that Mary is a passionate person. She's young. She is attracted to the very attractive Birch and he seems to have some feelings for her. He's paying a lot of attention to her. I can see that Mary would assess her chances of finding another man as not very probable. She wants to be with Birch and experience sex, although she knows it's likely to be just one time in her life, as she says "a birthday present to herself" on her 21st birthday. I think that Chevalier makes an adequate case for that, although I can see the point of view that others of you find this improbable.
As Steph says, Mary needs the income from the fossils. I think it makes sense that she would sell an important one to Birch since she likely still has feelings for him. Joan, I am a little surprised that he has the money to pay for it.
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Oh I thought she was in reaction to her nearly dying and her injuries - I reread again - and yes, I could see where the orchard could happen - I am thinking of the young housemaid in Downton Abby and the officer who disowns any responsibility when she turns up pregnant - she was only fired because she was caught - and so it did happen - and we have many stories of household gentry taking advantage of their help - however, except for the house maid in Downton it is usually written about as a rape - but what was it, the housemaid Rosanna in the Collins we read this past summer - the one who was in love with Franklin Blake - vaguely I am remembering she was not a pure virgin.
Birch does tell Mary he cannot marry her and she lets him know it is what she wants for her Birthday - I think his kindness is unsettling - it is a scene that when reading makes you feel a bit uncomfortable.
Mary is wise realizing that Elizabeth is not as angry with her as she is about her circumstances. I also think Elizabeth would have preferred to fantasize about an available Birch and now she cannot without seeing Mary's face and so she really feels stripped of her future, her lack of recognition and now even her fantasy life.
Don't we start the last chapters today...?
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I keep forgetting the age difference between Mary and Elizabeth - so I looked it up. Mary was born in 1799 and Elizabeth in 1780. So, on Mary's 21st birthday, Eliz. would have been 40. When you consider her age, and the fact that she grew up in London, not the remote village of Lyme Regis, it is understandable that Elizabeth would have been aware of how society would have frowned at Mary's behavior...if anyone found out about it. No wonder Elizabeth expressed her feelings about Mary's relationship with the Colonel.
Yes, we've started without you, Barb. :D When there's a question, check the heading. In these chapters we see that the rift between the two continues - even though the Colonel does not come back to Mary in Lyme Regis. We also see the pain each feels at her loss of the friendship.
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(http://0.tqn.com/d/dinosaurs/1/7/0/B/-/-/NTichthyosaurus.jpg)
Ichthyosaurus
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXgh7CcQEuCtrzqa1J50fUigcESYCimGyl86Qpu3za7svklwjUvQ)
Plesiosaurus
Plesiosaurus was one of the first of the "antediluvian reptiles" to be discovered and excited great interest in Victorian England. It was so-named ("near lizard") by William Conybeare and Henry De la Beche, to indicate that it was more like a normal reptile than Ichthyosaurus, which had been found in the same rock strata just a few years earlier. Plesiosaurus is the archetypical genus of Plesiosauria and the first to be described, hence lending its name to the order. Conybeare and De la Beche coined the name for scattered finds from the Bristol region, Dorset, and Lyme Regis in 1821.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plesiosaurus#Discovery_and_classification
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I can see the difference between the Ichie and the Plesie, but not sure which speciment was sent to the Geological Society, are you? Another long-necked Plesie?
Elizabeth read about Mary's latest find in the Western Flying Post saying this specimen was "something different from an Ichthyosaurus and a Plesiosaurus," (though William Buckland tells Elizabeth it is a Plesiosaurus.) Did you wonder who could have written this article? Mary? If not Mary, who else?
Was there a difference between the first Plesie, which Mary sold to Colonel Birch - and this latest find? Molly wants to sell this one to Col. Birch too. Mary has her own ideas.
As far as I can tell, this one was exhibited at the Geological Society in 1824, Mary was 25. I noted in the back of the book in the Postcripts, that Col. Birch had inherited his family title and estate in 1824, passed away in 1829. (No mention of a marriage.)
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I think the Col. really really needed to marry money.
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I searched too and could not find a marriage for Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas James Birch who in 1824 took the last name Bosvile after he inherited the family title and estate. Maybe he had enough money for himself, even before the inheritance, but not enough to support a wife and family in the style in which he wanted to live. He wasn't raised or trained to be a "working" man.
I think it was a long neck species that was sent to the Geological Society. The specimen had such a long neck that Georges Cuvier couldn't believe it was from one skeleton. His anatomical theories, based on living animals and fossils that had been found to date, concluded that such a long neck could not have been supported.
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George Cuvier is so self-centered. Just because he'd never seen anything like the creature in Mary's drawing, he's decided that there's no such thing - and that she has falsified her findings! Couldn't he have shown some of his scientific mind - made an attempt to see the specimen? As it turned out, it was an important finding. Makes him look bad. I know - he was considered a great man..
More on George:
It was Cuvier who firmly established the fact of the extinction of past lifeforms. He contributed an immense amount of research in vertebrate and invertebrate zoology and paleontology, and also wrote and lectured on the history of science.
What had happened to these great beasts of the past? Cuvier believed that the Earth was immensely old, and that for most of its history conditions had been more or less like those of the present. However, periodic "revolutions", or catastrophes (a word which Cuvier avoided because of its quasi-supernatural overtones) had befallen the Earth; each one wiped out a number of species. Cuvier regarded these "revolutions" as events with natural causes, and considered their causes and natures to be an important geological problem. Although he was a lifelong Protestant, Cuvier did not explicitly identify any of these "revolutions" with Biblical or historical events. However, some later geologists, notably Rev. William Buckland in England, suggested that the most recent revolution was the Biblical Flood.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/cuvier.html
I liked Buckland's thinking about Noah and the flood being another "revolution" in the geological revolution of the earth. I never really did understand where the flood fit into the scheme of things. Buckland made sense to me.
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What I find ironic- it was Elizabeth's copy of George Cuvier's book that prompted Elizabeth to question that first "crocodile" fossil Mary found...Elizabeth could see what Mary found was not included in Cuvier's book. So now, Cuvier doesn't see what both Mary and Elizabeth can see...that this latest specimen is NOT the Ichthyosaurus ...and different from the Plesiosaurus - not included in his latest book. Why wasn't he even the slightest bit curious to take a look at what Mary ha found?
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Looks like what has been typical in science - so many scientists thinking they were responsible for the ultimate understanding after some unique and original research only to in their lifetime have more research prove them only a stepping stone in the chain of understanding. At least now most scientists see themselves only as good as the last exploration. The more you read there was a lot of male ego tossing about in the nineteenth century as they dressed, ate, lived over puffed controlling the wealth it was certainly a voluptuous century and a century where many were pawns and others only as useful as they were appendages to male ego.
Interesting about Birch - maybe why Tracy Chevalier felt safe using him in some of the events she cooked up creating her novel. Bottom line she is doing a good job - not Jane Austin but then she never sold the story as an extension of the Jane Austin stories.
Gotta catch up reading - been a full few days just trying to stay warm is an effort. We have a real freeze tomorrow that may even bring sleet and ice - shoot - I get so impatient with this kind of weather I have a difficult time settling down to read for any length of time.
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Since I feel these last chapters for me shows Chevalier took extreme liberty with the book, I will tackle these two questions:
7. Lots of Information mentioned in the Postscripts at the end of the book. Which caught your attention?
Postscript
The Reader's Patience
Remarkable Creatures is a work of fiction, but many of the people existed, and events such as Colonel Birch's auction and the Geological Society meeting where Conybeare talked about the plesiosaur did take place. And Mary did indeed write at the bottom of the scientific paper she had copied out: "When I write a paper there shall not be but one preface." Sadly she never did write her own scientific paper.
Twenty-first-century attitudes towards time and our expectations of story are very different from the shape of Mary Anning's life. She spent day after day, year after year, doing the same thing on the beach. I have taken the events of her life and condensed them to fit into a narrative that is not stretched beyond the reader's patience. Hence events, while in order, do not always coincide exactly with actual dates and time spans. Plus, of course, I made up plenty. For instance, while there was gossip about Mary and Buckland and Mary and Birch, there was no proof. That is where only a novelist can step in.
My personal feelings about how Chevalier "stepped in" is, I feel it was not fair to write the orchard scene, or the peeing on the beach in close proximity of Mary and Fanny, because there was no proof. I feel an author should be responsible in keeping a real life person's character intact when writing about someone, especially who was as renowned as Mary Anning. Going as far as writing the orchard scene, and the entire somewhat relationship, between Mary and Birch was careless of this author. I can't help but wonder how Mary Anning would feel, knowing Chevalier, pretty much trashed her reputation in print, through her novel? I knew when I read these chapters, it was too hard to image this actually happened. As Steph said, "Sex sells" and someone mentioned a possible movie. But what about relatives of Mary's, even though it would be many generations later, would they be accepting of Chevalier's taking the liberty of marring Mary's reputation with the sex scene?
I am sure back in the 19Th Century there were women who broke the rules of societal etiquette to some degree, but Chevalier wore on this reader's patience, and I do feel she stretched beyond the reader's patience (at least mine for sure) with giving Mary and Elizabeth far more leeway for this era, than I was willing to accept. I kept calling, foul, as I read Eliz going on a ship of all men for days with no chaperon, going into an all men's Geological Society building where no woman had ever entered, sneaking in the hallway listening in on the meeting. Chevalier needed a way to reconcile Mary and Eliz's friendship, and it seems she took grave measures, by having Cuvier doubt the validity and honesty of Mary's plesiosaurus, bringing Molly to ask Eliz to step in and help clear Mary's name.
So, it leaves me wondering if Mary and Eliz actually ever had a rift that lasted years, during their lifetime/friendship. I'm thinking not. And, was there ever a doubt of Mary's validity with the plesiosaurus? I think not. Another thing that upset me is how Chevalier allows Mary to accept the find the Day brothers actually found, pay them for digging it out for her and then taking credit for it as her own. Throughout the entire book Chevalier is making such an important point that Mary should be given credit and recognition for her finds, and how unfair it was for Birch and Buckland to put their names on Mary's finds. NOW it's ok for Mary to do it? Whether the Day brother wanted it or not, in all honesty and integrity, Mary should not have take ownership and credit for it. Even her mother was not happy with her actions. Did this actually happen? I think not. Chevalier says the auction took place, but Eliz ever being there, I think not. Conybeare talked about the plesiosaur at the meeting, but Eliz ever entering the building, I think not.
8. Your overall rating of the book - how many stars? Would you recommend it to a friend?
I'm going to give this book a rating of 5 stars out of 10. I would only recommend this book to a friend, if I knew the friend was interested in fossils and other remarkable creatures. Other than that.....all the rest frustrated me, and wore on my patience, because I feel it was not fair to the reader to "step in" and give way too much liberty in contradiction to the time era's societal etiquette. Like the link stated I posted earlier, authors have guidelines they must stay in when writing about different time frames. Chevalier broke the rules, and as she stated herself, "I made up plenty."
Ciao for now~
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just wondering if what the author has put into play ( peeing in front of the women, but discreetly with the back turned!!! & making love in between 2 different classes of people) had happened during the time period in her research and she put it to these characters to be playing what she had read to pad the characters out give them some extra life, ....otherwise with not a lot of actual fact to go on there might not be much of a book to read....am going to look up other 2 other books I have seen written about 'Mary', unfortunately will not be reading during the time of this discussion....
note of interest: there is a gathering of an amateur fossil group in the vicinity of 'fort myers' coming up....should be interesting considering having read this book
Deb
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Very satisfying read - the chapter just before the paragraph long chapter tied it up in a lovely way - I was going to share how interesting that Elizabeth found herself and her power aboard ship except than I had to step back realizing it was fiction -
It became difficult for me to talk about this book - in literature I look for a theme and a message - not so in a bio - this being neither and both made it a read with no focus. I was incensed during the bit where she has to plead with men to even be allowed in the building and to listen to a lecture that was arranged only because of Mary's finds - Including the nephew was fun - Elizabeth turned out to be a strong lady - not only bringing back her health with no antibiotics but then she lived longer than most of them.
Mary and Elizabeth's story is duplicated over and over with women who were and are still ignored bringing original discovery to their scholarship. I hear similar stories from my sister who is known for her research into women philosophers.
Hunting or even taking time in a museum to view fossils does not rank high on my list of things I want to do - I am glad I read this and have some acquaintanceship with prehistoric Fossils but then I was never that amoured with dinosaurs either.
I did not get the feeling of reading a Jane Austin or even an Elizabeth Gaskell- it was a thinner story without the subplots nor is it a book of nineteenth century manners on parade. It is easier to say what it is not - what it was to me was a nice read - not a 10 - around a 7 or 8.
Tracy Chevalier does a nice job of helping us see the treatment of skilled knowledgeable women and just because they were women they did not receive acknowledgement - it is a reminder of what it was like before the 1960s - in spots the story reminded me of a Gothic romance novel and other times a gentle English country side cozy expecting to see Miss Marple peeking around the next corner. It was a sparse story with atmosphere - pleasant and only memorable because of being introduced to some real people.
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I discounted the boat trip as nonsense..All men and her,, in that period.. I dont think so..But it was fun to fantasize with it and of course the men only clubs were all over at that period. I liked the book because I really had never heard of the women and even a fictional story about real women doing interesting and unusual things pleased me..
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So many good points! Need to go out for the morning, but can't wait to come back and consider more closely what you've said.
One small thing...if you are ready to rate the book, will you please use a five star basis? That's the scale most book sites use. Like one of my favorites - Goodreads. (their overall ranking for this one - 3.75 stars) I thought it would be fun to see how our group compares. Bellamaria, since you've already rated on a ten-scale...and then Barb followed you, will you re-evaluate on the five scale? It was too subjective for me to try to translate your ten stars to five. :D
Clarified #8:
Your overall rating of the book - how many stars? (scale of * to *****) Would you recommend it to a friend?
Back later - here's another question for you - What did you think the author meant with the title - Remarkable Creatures?
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Sorry, JoanP., I am so used to a scale of 1 - 10. :-[
On the scale of 1 - 5 stars I would rate the book a 2.75. For all the reasons I listed above.
I do want to say, I am glad I read the book. I like to read new authors, and when I read books with our discussion group, you all bring so much more to the books, then I would ever get from them, by myself. Sometimes because I am an aspiring author, I have a tendency to critique authors a bit tight. Lo and behold, I have had a few published writings, and I am sure others do the same to me.
I think Remarkable Creatures, simply means there are so many different remarkable creatures they were finding on the beach, washing ashore. They were considered "creatures" because they really were some from of animal species. I noticed the #3 definition below says, "created thing: somebody or something that has been created." So in that assessment, my belief is that God created these species, and I don't think if they became extinct it has any bearing on God seeing any of them as imperfect, so he did away with them. Giving thought to Eliz questioning if God felt he had made a mistake or something bad, part of her argument or wonderment, as to when these existed, were created and by what nature they were created.
Bing Dictionary Definition of creature (n)
crea•ture[ krchər ]
1. living being: any living person or animal
2. unpleasant living being: an unpleasant or frightening living thing
3. created thing: somebody or something that has been created
http://www.bing.com/search?q=creature%20definition&pc=conduit&ptag=AFF7C10AB685B4430AAF&form=CONTLB&conlogo=CT3210127&ShowAppsUI=1
While typing, I had a song that entered my head, which we sing in church often. My personal take is the Master of the sea, is meaning God, since he is the creator of all. IMO
All The Ends of the Earth (By Bob Dufford)[/i]
REFRAIN: All the ends of the earth,
All you creature of the sea, lift up your eyes
To the wonders of the Lord. For the Lord of the earth,
The master of the sea, has come with justice for the world.
1. Break into song at the deeds of the Lord,
The wonders He has done in every age. (refrain)
2. Heaven and earth shall rejoice in his might;
Every heart, every nation call Him Lord. ( refrain)
3. The Lord has made His salvation known, faithful to His
promise of old. (refrain)
4. Let the ends of the earth, let the sea and it holds
Make music before our King! (refrain)
As I was reading this book, and each of you mentioned where you have visited, some actually in Lyme Regis, experiencing the activity on the beaches, I had to giggle, because like Mary, Eliz, Buckland, Birch, Joe, Richard Anning, Molly Anning, and all the others who at one time or the other scanned the beaches in hopes of finding a "remarkable creature," I felt like our discussion group was indeed scanning those beaches too. I may not have gotten the feeling from Chevalier that I was in the setting of the 1800's, but I surely felt it from those who posted sharing your knowledge and experiences. As always, we are a unique book club, that never leaves a stone, pebble, fossil or creature unturned! We hold the author accountable, and we give great praise when we know we have finished reading a great book! I may not have found this particular book great, but I can say I found this discussion grrrreeeaaattt!!!!
Ciao for now~
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I think I will go for a 4 - parts of it for content would be 3 but then it is fiction and this is probably no more accurate than The Mists of Avalon. All we can do is compare expected behavior to what we have read in other books - she is trying to entertain and instruct and for that she did a decent job - when all is done I think it was a thin read - several of the contemporary authors we have read offered us in depth issues to chew on like, Major Pettigrew's Last Stand and The Unlikely Pilgrimage of Harold Fry
And as remarkable as the fossil finds and as remarkable as the men who first brought this study of Paleontology to the world's attention and as remarkable as these two woman were who hunted in all kinds of weather with great depth of knowledge mixing all this with fiction and at times what appears to be fantasy fiction did not bring me to a place where I could step into the story as I can with many of the nineteenth century authors - but then they are included in the canon of greats where as I doubt Tracy Chevalier is in that sphere of acclaim.
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Well said, Barb! Considering I just finished Jane Austen's wonderful Pride and Prejudice, and Persuasion, I think anything following them, would have seemed watered down to me. Austen has spoiled me where the nineteenth century is concerned. Oh Major Pettigrew's Last Stand, I so loved that book. ;)
Ciao for now~
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I did not have trouble with the mix up between fact and fiction because this book was fiction; so I expected the author to take some leeway. I am glad I read the book and am sorry that I didn't know about the fossils when we were in Lyme Regis. I will say that I did get tired of the book the last few chapters. I would rate it a 3.
Sally
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It was a challenge, reading the book as fiction, Sally, wasn 't it - with actual people in the shadows. I kept wondering more about their story...and how much was true, how much was Ms Chevalier 's creation. Maybe it's not fair to compare her with JA Austen...Jane never faced such a challenge. She could let her imagination run wild. Well, not too wild. She did have to consider the social mores of the time. Ms. Chevalier had these two ladies who actually were stretching the limits of what a lady could or could not do at this time.
A good question, Steph - did Elizabeth Philpot ever spend days aboard a ship, un chaperoned - with only male passengers? Or was this fiction. I wouldn't be surprised if it actually happened...
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I wonder if any of you considered Mary and Elizabeth, "remarkable creatures" - along with the fossils they found on the beaches of Lyme Regis? Might Tracy Chevalier have intended that when choosing the title?
If so, what was remarkable about them?
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Yes, i think they were all remarkable in a remarkable age.
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Yes, I actually wondered if the title could be looked at two different ways, "remarkable creatures" on the beach, human and animal. Now that I have finished this book, I would really like to know more real life, factual information about Mary and Eliz's life. My curious mind just may wander around the internet searching for more. Maybe I just might find a remarkable creature!
Sally, I am with you, I also got a bit tired of the book in the last four chapters. But unlike you, it was the fiction that I tired from. I wanted more real life facts about their lives. In the beginning of the book, we discussed this was a HIStory, because it involved real people, places and events that took place over fifty years ago. So just maybe that set me up expecting more history, rather than fiction. I am finding over the past few years, I tend to enjoy more non fiction rather than fiction. Although a good love story or mystery is always an enjoyable welcoming read too.
Ciao for now~
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I just read the book and enjoyed....... and would give the author a 4 for what she gave to me with the reading....by the way just finished her book about the underground railway and read it in 2 days.....had a real feeling while reading about the seaside in England and the 2 women wandering the beaches thru all types of weather looking, looking, looking....loved their passion ....reading about people with passion like theirs is truly wonderful in my books...could visualize the so much more wildlife that would not be cut short by our present society excesses....i.e. flocks of birds might be hundreds, of course this was not America, but still less people on the planet....
am very glad I read the book...and thanks to all of you for adding such substance to my read
bookad
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Trying to be fair.. I kept fighting with the fact or fiction through the whole book..Sooooo as fiction,, a 4..and oh I do wish I know enough about fact to know about some of it, I did not believe.. Still I am glad I read it.
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I have to take my book back to the library today so it won't be overdue. I have a ton of things to do to get prepared for our family Thanksgiving feast. Who is crazy enough to go purchase new living room furniture to be delivered one day before Thanksgiving? ONLY ME I am sure. Had to have all my living room furniture moved to the family room in our basement last night, now it's get movin to get everything put back together before the delivery men come tomorrow morning. Ughhhh....so I will take the time now to thank all our moderators for a wonderful discussion. I look forward to our December read.
May each and everyone of you have a very blessed, and Happy Thanksgiving!
Ciao for now~
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Yes, I agree with Bellamarie - a great discussion and I too have to prepare - with our severe cold front I did not get anything done - have to focus now and will probably be up all hours trying to get it done. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
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My son in law, daughter and 12 yr old grandson will be here tomorrow. They are going to do all the Thanksgiving dinner, including desserts. My sil loves to cook & they told me that they do not want me to do a thing...They are even bringing the food. It will seem strange for me not to do anything. It seems like I should be making cornbread, etc. Everyone should have a family like mine!! We have had an unusual long cold spell for Texas, so tomorrow I am going to make a big pot of homemade vegetable beef soup and we will have that tomorrow and Friday. Happy Thanksgiving to all.
I am thankful for the moderators we have had for these discussions. You all are doing a great job.
Sally
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I am off this morning for Bradenton to enjoy Thanksgiving with my entire family.. Just two sons, wives and two grandchildren, but thats enough. Will be gone until Sunday, will take my IPAD,so hopefully I can coax it into letting me see what is going on.. I loved the discussion.
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Up early...need to get to the grocery store before it gets crazy over there - did the big list, now the last minute - and then spend the rest of the day on pies and stuffing. Luckily the crowd won't be here tomorrow (don't have to clean the house!)... Or move in new furniture!
Husband likes the smell of turkey...and leftovers...so will do a turkey here the next day. Who is crazier, Bella?
Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! When counting blessings, I think of you...and what we have here!
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Steph, it's been a fun discussion, hasn't it? So many interesting observations made me consider these two women in a different way than I would have if reading alone. While Mary Anning is of interest, it is was Elizabeth Philpot who caught my attention from the beginning.
Sooner or later, someone would have noticed what Mary Anning was finding on the beach of Lyme Regis...we'll never know if Mary would have been recognized in the history of Paleontology. We've seen what Elizabeth did for Mary...since Mary was a child. How much of this was Tracy Chevalier's fiction? (Did Elizabeth really travel alone unchaperoned to London for Mary, for example?).
I hope those of you who are searching for more on the real Elizabeth Philpot have more luck than I did. There were some interesting bits in the Postcripts about her, that may shed some light.
Let's talk some more after the dishes are all put away and we've had a good long nap.
Glad you've got your laptop with you, Steph!
Again, Happy Thanksgiving -enjoy the turkey...it's good more you!
Deb - would like to hear more of the author's next book about the woman who worked on the Underground Railroad...
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/library/wildturkylib.gif)
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Happy Thanksgiving everyone....I am so lucky my husband & I had Thanksgiving near Yarmouth, Nova Scotia in October with old friends; and now we get to celebrate Thanksgiving again with new friends in our community.
Wishing you all the best
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
November Book Club Online
Remarkable Creatures by Tracy Chevalier
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/remarkablecover2.jpg) | In Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier brings to our attention, two historical figures, telling their tale in two distinct voices. Mary Anning is the young one, the uneducated girl with the uncanny gift of finding fossils.
It is the older woman whose voice dominates the novel, another historical character, a middle-class spinster sent away by a married brother to live more cheaply in England's coastal village of Lyme Regis. To Jane Austen's readers, she will sound familiar.
Both women played a key role in understanding the earth with their discoveries, though not without controversy, at a time when there was no place for women in science. This is the story of their friendship which allowed them to stand together and prevail as they challenged the thinking of the day. |
November 1-8 Chapters 1-3
November 9-15 Chapters 4-5
November 16-22 Chapters 6-7
November 23-30 Chapters 8-10
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/remarkablecreatures/ammonite.jpg) |
SOME TOPICS FOR DISCUSSION
Chapters 8-10
1. Were you surprised to learn that months after their "fight" Mary had sold another creature to Col. Birch - a new one, called a Plesiosaurus. Who identified and named this specimen?
2. How do Mary Anning and Elizabeth regard the fossils they collected? Works of art or bones of the dead? What does this tell about each character?
3. The Western Flying Post described Mary's next find as "something different from an Ichthyosaurus and a Plesiosaurus," though William Buckland tells Elizabeth it is a Plesiosaurus. Where would the newspaper have gotten this information? How did Elizabeth describe it when she entered Mary's workroom?
4. Why did Cuvier reject Mary's description of her latest find? How did Elizabeth Philpot get involved this time?
5. More lightning bolts! How does Chevalier describe their occurance in Mary's life? Do you remember any specific instances?
6. How has Elizabeth changed since her rift with Mary and her journey alone to London? Do you recall the metaphor Mary/Chevalier used to describe how she appears now?
7. Lots of Information mentionned in the Postscripts at the end of the book. Which caught your attention?
8. Your overall rating of the book - how many stars? (one to five scale) Would you recommend it to a friend?
Related Links:
Comments from the Prediscussion of this novel (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=4019.0); Video ~ Tracy Chevalier on Writing Remarkable Creatures (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJEbfYNh9E&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCiJEbfYNh9E); The Annings' House and Shop (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/Mary_Anning%27s_house_and_shop_in_Lyme_Regis%2C_drawn_in_1842.JPG);
DLs: AdoAnnie (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM ), BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com), Marcie (marciei@aol.com ), JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net)
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You are lucky, Deb~ Are you cooking? In the kitchen today - or will you be dining out? I'm up to my elbows in pie and stuffing. Can anyone tell me why, after years and years and years of making pie, the crust is always a struggle?
Happy tomorrow, Deb!
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JoanP....just took the underground railway book back to the library; wasn't quite what I expected but very enjoyable read anyway...am going to pursue other books by Tracy Chevalier
no am not cooking we are invited to a friend's home.... we met in Bradenton 8 years ago in a trailler park....but when at our home my husband does the cooking and I do the clean up; he is an excellent cook and very creative with the mess following as well it is a combined effort when we have company as well, works for us
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HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL HERE.
And thanks to all who have participated in our discussion and added to our knowledge of Mary Anning and her good friend, Liz Philpot. This has indeed been most interesting and great fun!
Our dinner tomorrow will be celebrated at our home but cooked and brought by our DIL and her mother and dad. We provide the house and they do the cooking. There will be 12 of us at the table (4 are grans) and we will play dominoes afterward.
Hope you all enjoy the day.
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This has been an enjoyable discussion with lots to think about due to everyone's varying points of view. Thanks, to everyone here. I hope you all enjoy a wonderful Thanksgiving.
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Dinner at son's home...means no untidy kitchen here today - and no leftovers! Not to worry, I have a turkey thawing in the downstairs refridgerator to cook tomorrow...and I do have extra stuffing I made on Wednesday and didn't take with me yesterday. Husband's idea...wanted turkey cooked here!
Deb, I was curious about Tracy Chevalier's latest book, The Runaway, released in August, 2013. (She says in her website she is planning to hibernate during the winter...no word on next topic.)
The Runaway's main character - a young English Quaker, Honor Bright, who emigrates to America in 1850. Story of the underground railroad...and those quilts! From a review:
"Ultimately, however, it is two secondary characters – Mrs Reed, a free black woman and the milliner Belle Mills – and Honor's relationship with each of them that lends imaginative fire to the story. In 2009, Chevalier published Remarkable Creatures, an extraordinary novel that captured with astonishing clarity and accuracy the rhythms and pacing of a friendship between two women. Here, too, the most exciting glimmers of life come from Honor's fledgling friendships with two unusual, world-weary and courageous women"
Is there a theme running through Chevalier's books...Girl with a Pearl Earring, Remarkable Creatures and the Runaway? Courageous women who stick together to overcome injustice and adversity? Thinking again about the title, Remarkable Creatures and am more certain that it is the relationship between these two women that Chevalier views as "remarkable" - more so even than the fossilized creatures they are unearthing - (unshaling?)...
We haven't talked much in this discussion about what was going on regarding women's rights elsewhere during this period. Elizabeth Philpot travelling alone on the ship to London was unbelievable to some of you who have been reading Jane Austen...but Jane's women were all under the domination of the men in their households. Mary and Elizabeth had no such restrictions. I'm wondering when women began to take control of their lives, stand up for themselves? Tracy Chevalier seems to be pointing out how daring, how remarkable, these two were. If there were other strong women at this time, they surely didn't have their example.
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JoanP...after reading your post perhaps that is the theme, 2 different personalities from an era differing as to the 'norm' of the times
Honor from 'the runaway' was leaving behind her a fiance who jilted her and left the relationship and Honor consequently felt she could not hold her head up in her English society (the society she had been born into ) she elected therefore to accompany her sister who was leaving for America to marry a man older than herself, not having any prospects in her native England, sadly to die just after arriving on the new continent....this leaves Honor alone, afraid to travel back to England due to extreme seasickness on the ship, moving in with her sister's fiance, and newly widowed sister-in-law of the fiance's brother....strange combination to be among her religion and Quakers in her town ....Honor met a business woman and spent some time in her home recouperating from an illness before moving to the home of her deceased sister's fiance and also met a negro woman whose path she was to cross later in the book......
would be interesting to find from the author about her thoughts while writing the books and how she saw the women....
I am presently reading about women in the civil war and how they fought alongside men dressed and impersonating men to be able to do so....I find it very intriguing women who go against the grain of their times and are not caught up in 'the norm' around them
Tracey has written a number of books beside the 3 mentioned and I would be interested to know if this is a running theme she enjoys writing about....
your thoughts
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One of hers that I've been intending to read...The Lady and the Unicorn- had uneven reviews as I recall. Praised for the detailed description of the making of these famous tapestries, but criticized for the depiction of the characters...too many of them, speaking in voices difficult to identify. I think it was written around 2004...shortly after she wrote Girl with a Pearl Earring. Trying to remember the women in Pearl Earring. I know there was the young servant, Griet, who posed for the famous painting. And his pregnant wife. Trying to remember their relationship, the girl and the wife. I think I have it upstairs. Don't remember it as being the theme. It may have been. Does anyone remember Girl with Pearl Earring? My memory is really awful these days.
Since Chevalier chooses historical fiction, based on well-known events and carefully researched works of art, relics, fossils of a previous age, I like your idea of noticing her choice of the women of each age and how they cope with the "norm"... I seem to remember that from the Earring girl...
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one thought I would like to add....after this about 'women who move against the norm'....I find in the last few weeks I have been reading a couple of books on women who were in the civil war and fought with the troops, mainly disguised as men and the freedoms they found in doing this, among other things, like learning to spit and swear so as not to give away their identity
the book I am reading now
Patriots in Disguise
women warriors of the civil war
by Richard Hall
and before this book I read 2 books of the same topic found among the young adult/children section in the library
I guess thats where this discussion has led me, not to mention the amateur fossil show coming up in Fort Myers this week...I'll be thinking about this discussion as I take in what they offer
all the best
Deb
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I love it when our book discussions don't end - when we are inspired to go on in different directions as you are with those women fighting in the Civil War, Deb.
The fossils fascinate me. I read in Sunday's Washington Post of the discovery of soft tissue in fossil remains from the Jurassic Period - no telling how much paleontologists will learn from this discovery! I certainly intend to keep up with this.
What a fun discussion this has been...on so many levels! I'll add my 4 to Tracy Chevalier's book...giving our group's overall rating a 3.6. Maybe the ranking reflects what was added by you, our DLs and participants. Thanks, all!