Author Topic: Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan Mid-September/October Book Club Online  (Read 46502 times)

Frybabe

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The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in!
Everyone is welcome!

 
The Girls of Atomic City                            
by Denise Kiernan
 
Based on first-person interviews with women who served at Oak Ridge, several of them now now in their eighties and nineties, Denise Kiernan  tells the  true story of young women during World War II who worked in a secret city dedicated to making fuel for the first atomic bomb—only they didn’t know that.

At the dawn of the atomic age, the community of Oak Ridge, Tenn., rose up around the secret work taking place there in support of the war effort.  At the heart of those efforts were thousands of women from across the country who did their part to help secure the United States while maintaining a public silence.

 They all knew something big was happening at Oak Ridge, but few could piece together the true nature of their work until the bomb was dropped over Hiroshima, Japan, and the secret was out. The shocking revelation: the residents Chicken Oak Ridge were enriching uranium for the atomic bomb.  They had NO idea!
 
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

September 15-21~ Introduction & Revelation, August 1945;
   Chapters 1, 2, 3  (62 pages)

September 22-28 ~ TUBEALLOY, 1938
   Chapters 4,5

Sept. 29- Oct. 5 ~ TUBEALLOY, The Quest for Product
   Chapters 6, TUBEALLOY, The Couriers, Chapter 7

Oct 6-12 ~ TUBEALLOY, (p 151) Security, Censorship, The Press
   Chapters 8, TUBEALLOY, Pumkins, Spies, and Chicken Soup; Chapter 9,
   TUBEALLOY, Combining Efforts in the New Year; Chapter 10
(to pg. 204)
Oct 13-19 ~ TUBEALLOY, (p 205) The Project's Crucial Spring;
   Chapter 11; TUBEALLOY, Hope and the Haberdasher, April-May, 1945; Chapter 12,
   Chapter 13
(to pg. 268)


RELEVANT LINKS:
An Interview with Denise Kiernan  about Atomic City girls; Part 2 Interview with Denise Kiernan;
2013 Interview with Celia Klemski; Interview with Kattie Strickland, resident of Oak Ridge in 2005

For Your Consideration
October 13-19

TUBEALLOY (p151) ~ The Project's Crucial Spring

1. In Spring of 1945, the improvements in the production process and the rapid pace maintained by all of the workers meant more Product. What were some of the health and safety concerns you noticed in this section?

Chapter 11 ~ Innocence Lost

1. What details of Ebbe Cade's experience disturbed you most?
2. What conjectures about the products being used or the purpose of the Project at the CEW did you notice in this chapter?

TUBEALLOY ~ Hope and the Haberdasher, April-May, 1945

1. What did you learn about the secrecy related to the Project at the highest levels of government?
2. What was Truman's reaction when he finally found out about the Project?

Chapter 12 ~ Sand Jumps in the Desert, July 1945

1. What facts about the testing of the Gadget did you find interesting?
2. What do you know about the Potsdam Conference and President Truman's dealings with the other heads of countries?
3. Were you surprised at the letters sent to the President by scientists involved in the Project?
4. What do you think about Truman's decision?
 
Chapter 13 ~ The Gadget Revealed

1.  What are your thoughts about the radio announcement made by President Truman? Did any of the wording stand out for you?
2.  Had you heard about the leaflets that were dropped on Japanese cities?
3.  What were the reactions by workers at CEW? What happened to the secrecy surrounding their work?


DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH,
 




FRYBABE:
How sad, Marci. They are not anything to look at in the daytime. But at night? Oh, they are just so magical.
I found a YouTube video of fireflies. This one is short, just plain old backyard, no time lapse, nothing doctored, no commentary or documentary stuff. It does come with a bird singing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6QiKnTht3s

Thanks for the article Mary. I saw something about that a few weeks back but don't remember that it said when. I think I saw it on the schedule for supersite cleanup along with other plants that were involved in uranium enrichment. It amazed me that so many of them were actually in downtown areas of cities rather that outside major population areas like Oak Ridge. But then, Oak Ridge when and built its own town right close to the plants too.

I got to the page where she talked about the unwitting patient being turned into an experiment. Disgusting. And they left the guy with unset bones for 20 days? I think that upset me just as much. What ever happened to the Hippocratic Oath?
"First, do no harm."

PatH

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I've never seen an actual firefly :-(
That's sad, Marcie.  They're such fun.  It's easy to catch them without hurting them, and they aren't afraid, but will crawl around your hand, flashing on and off for some time before taking off.  I never knew what your link says, that they only feed on snails in damp locations.  Goodness knows it's damp enough around here in summer.

bellamarie

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I am sure many feel as Tibbit, and there are generals and others who feel Japan was ready and willing to surrender, which means the war was at its end, and the bombs were not necessary.  I suppose this controversy, will forever be discussed.

No fireflies in Ca.,  that is astounding to learn! 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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We used to spend so much time catching fireflies in a glass jar - with holes punched in the lid - so many of them, thinking surely we'd be able to read by their light after lights-out.  It never worked.  They seemed to turn off as soon as we got them inside.  Who knows - maybe they were happily mating in the dark, no longer needing to attract mates.

I've spent the last half hour researching those fireflies in Oak Ridge - trying to learn if they are any different from others.
This from Time magazine in 1950 -

"The kids of atomic Oak Ridge, Tenn. (which swarms with children) were busy this week on a new enterprise: collecting fireflies for Dr. Bernard L. Strehler of the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Dr. Strehler wants 100,000 lightning bugs and will pay 25¢ a 100 for living, healthy specimens.

When Dr. Strehler finally gets his fireflies collected, they will not be allowed to sparkle for long. He intends to detach their luminous posteriors and extract from them luciferin—a substance which fascinates many scientists.
Luciferin (an enzyme or organic catalyst) is responsible for the firefly's luminescence."

According to Sullivan the fireflies will be used this year for public health concern by testing food. The biochemical enzyme in a firefly's tail that makes it glow is called luciferase. This enzyme when added to a certain solution will glow.
Scientists can test the presence of bacteria in meat by adding the luciferase. If the solution glows there is bacteria and the meat is spoiled.
The enzyme is also used as a genetic marker. Geneticists can measure the amount of light produced when the luciferase is added to the gene they are working on to tell them what they need to know. http://www.greenevillesun.com/news/article_ee8e4081-154d-59f8-979e-3670dbb00d0f.html

From an Oak Ridge news article -
http://www.tennessean.com/story/news/local/gallatin/2014/07/07/collect-fireflies-watch-wallet-light/12308965/

"Calling all lightning bug collectors. Scientists are caJling for help. And the price is going up. This year the price for fireflies has jumped to the all time hlgh of 42 cents per gram or $12 per ounce for a fresh supply of insects.

Read more: http://www.oakridger.com/article/20080619/Ne

In the search, I came across a looong scientific article which spoke of the uranium deposits found in the soil in Eastern Tennessee.  If I had the patience to read the article, I might have found the connection between the special fireflies and uranium...which I suspect is there.  Here's the article if you are so inclined -
http://books.google.com/books?id=v2ZXAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA48&lpg=RA1-PA48&dq=fireflies+collected+in+Oak+Ridge+TN&source=bl&ots=v5YszsN079&sig=FTZ8BjT8L35_4QQr95HxAbxxKYA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zf03VIizFe7IsASK04GICQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=fireflies%20collected%20in%20Oak%20Ridge%20TN&f=false  






JoanP

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Back and forth - between the whimsical comments from the girls working on this "gadget" about which they knew nothing about - (except the rumors) and the Tubealloy chapter which indicates it is nearly ready.
Thank you for that article on Paul Tibbets, Marcie.

Historian Stephen Ambrose wrote, Tibbets was "the best flier in the Army Air Force."
He claimed that he saw the real effects of bombing civilians and the trauma of losing of his brothers in arms. In January 1943, Tibbets, who had now flown 43 combat missions,[

It is clear why the young colonel was selsected for the mission.

In February 1943. At the time, the B-29 program was beset by a host of technical problems, and the chief test pilot, Edmund T. Allen, had been killed in a crash of the prototype aircraft.
 Working with the Boeing plant in Wichita, Kansas, Tibbets test flew the B-29, and soon accumulated more flight time in it than any other pilot."
From the same article -

"He was seen as a national hero who had ended the war with Japan."



The ground crew of the B-29 "Enola Gay" which atom-bombed Hiroshima, Japan. Col. Paul W. Tibbets, the pilot is the center.

But I'm  getting ahead of the book...


JoanP

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The matter of secrecy took its toll on quite a few people - Paul Tibbets - and the young women Dr. Clark saw as patients.  It seems to have been hardest on the married workers -

"Tibbets, who received promotion to colonel in January 1945,[34] brought his wife and family along with him to Wendover. He felt that allowing married men in the group to bring their families would improve morale, although it put a strain on his own marriage. To explain all the civilian engineers on base who were working on the Manhattan Project, he had to lie to his wife, telling her that the engineers were "sanitary workers. "  (This couple divorced shortly after the war.}

Was Dr. Clark able to help the married couples deal with the matter of secrecy  - unable to communicate to one another?

mabel1015j

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Good question Joan about whether Dr Clark helped the couples. Maybe later in the book she will give us that info, but he just seems to be reporting the problem at this point. What kind of paranoia would lead the creepers to suspect a group of wives meeting for morning coffee? Of course, i think men, particularly of that era, were less likely then women to like to meet just to chat. Men seemed to need a reason, a goal, to get together, going hunting, playing golf or cards, doing business. Even today i think men are less likely to get together just to be social and to "connect." So, the creepers might be suspicious of women gathering, although, what protected info could they have to share?

Ironic that we're talking about the fireflies, my son and i mentioned this summer that there seemed to be so many more this summer at our house and at his ( about 8 miles away). Both of us live near water, but i doubt there are any snails in either the creek by our house or the river by his. We have woods behind our house, so it is very dark when we walk out our back door and they just lit up the backyard this summer. It was so beautiful. When they said they were paying by the 100s, i wondered who was counting them. ;) But then they changed to grams or ounces, so much easier, i would think.

If one had any thing to do with the atomic bomb drop on the Japanese, i think you would have to rationalize it as a necessary action. Harry Truman is said to have never questioned a decision after he made it, so that seemed to be his typical behavior, but for the pilots and crews and the other decision-makers, it may have been harrowing to think about what they had done.

I think it's interesting how DK talks a little bit about the differing language and accents of language that come together from the different parts of the country. She mentions Virginia learns that a "poke" was a paperbag. When i was doing training for Dept of Army on Effective Communication i started with a list of ten words and asked the participants to identify what they were. One of them was "poke". Some of the answers were "to hit", "a salad", a "bag to carry something in", etc. it was a fun exercise to recognize our different "languages" and how we might misunderstand each other even though we all spoke English.

Jean

marcie

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Maryz, that article is so timely related to our reading. I wonder if the grounds around those big buildings are contaminated by radiation?

marcie

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I think that the psychological toll on married couples would have been enormous. The husbands had to not only withhold the truth but likely they had to lie if they communicated at all with their wives. The husbands were under a lot of stress to get their work done in a hurry and they couldn't even communicate with members of their work team and certainly not with their families.

maryz

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Many people nowadays work in jobs that are secret and they are unable to share things with their spouses.  I imagine it is tough, and definitely not easy.
"When someone you love dies, you never quite get over it.  You just learn how to go on without them. But always keep them safely tucked in your heart."

bellamarie

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I really enjoyed Celia's interview.   She, very much like Kattie, does not give me any indication things were as doom and gloom as D.K. has written in her book.  Both ladies are very likeable, and seem to have very good memories of their time in Oak Ridge. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ursamajor

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I really think Kattie was pulling the interviewer's leg.  Most of the black people working on the project had almost no education - in the 1930s a black in the South was lucky to get as far as sixth grade - and surely had no conception of physics.  I don't find it credible that they figured out what was being done in the project.  Virginia was college educated and a chemist - not hard to believe she knew what was going on.  She is also a remarkably bright woman.

bellamarie

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I don't think Kattie gave anyone the impression she was intelligent enough to figure out what they were doing on her own.  She said in her interview that "people" talked.  So I took that as those who did know, were leaking information. That would make sense considering the young Navy man knowing about the atomic bomb being built to use on Japan, and he wanted to warn Japan of it.  I didn't get the sense Kattie was pulling the interviewer's leg, more so I felt the interviewer was coaxing her.

After seeing both interviews, I am taking this book with a grain of salt.  It appears D.K., like other authors and also movie producers took information collected, along with research, and compiled a story "she" wanted to tell.  I don't dispute the history of this story, no one could possibly, I am just beginning to see it reading more like an historical fiction, especially after listening to both ladies interviews.  This is in no way criticism to D.K.  I feel she has taken liberties in telling the events of these women, to capture more drama, suspense and worsened conditions.  These two women are very lighter hearted when telling about their lives and work in Oak Ridge.  The interviewers seem to be trying to gear them in a direction to fit the narrative of the book written.

The one thing I do find indisputable, is how the government played a part in the treatment, or lack there of, for the American people.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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It seems this interviewer had taped conversations with the "girls" an an earlier date.  Does anyone remember how long before? in this later interview, the way I saw it - he was simply urging Kattie to recall and retell some of the stories she had told him in the earlier interview.  I don't think he was trying to shape the interview in any way.  He was simply trying to communicate with an elderly woman whose story was a little bit different from what she had originally told him.  (Maybe she was "pulling his leg." :D)

Denise Kiernan has selected women who lived those war years in Oak Ridge - and were accessible to answer her questions.  For the most part, these women had fond memories of their time there;  many chose to live there after the war.  I think she was fair when portraying those for whom  secrecy was problematic - describing how the government provided them counsel and other opportunities to socialize.

Dr. Clarke, the head of psychiatric services for the Project, submitted a report in which he considered the unique challenges for those who lived there.
I think this is a good summary of his findings:

"Attitudes at Oak Ridge were as varied as the people themselves.  There were those who thought the Reservation was an absolute "hellhole" with no redeeming qualities.  There were those who could take it or leave it.  But that was okay, it was only temporary...and finally, there were those who thought that this odd new place they had come to know as Oak Ridge was the best thing that had ever happened to them"

Do you think these women, Denise Keirnan's "girls" who decided to stay on at Oak Ridge, were in that last group?

marcie

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Frybabe, I was scrolling up to find something and I just saw your post with a link to fireflies on youtube. Thank you very much. . They look like shooting stars but near the earth. I'd really love to see them in person.

Bellamarie, I agree that the author, like all authors, is selecting from the interviews to tell what happened in a compelling way. I don't think that the interviews linked in the heading were the only conversations with the women that she had or listened to. I think that memories get confabulated over time and it's probably only by talking to many people who had a common experience that one could get an adequate picture of what took place.

PatH

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Kiernan had an advantage that someone doing a taped interview doesn't.  She could chat away with her subjects, often many times, and let things come out gradually.  Something not remembered at first might pop up later.  Some random digression might produce important facts.

I suspect that with time and nostalgia the memories of most of the women softened a bit.

marcie

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We're moving to the next chapters this week, although we can continue to talk about anything we've read so far.

In the TUBEALLOY section on "The Project's Crucial Spring," we learn that in the Spring of 1945, the improvements in the production process and the rapid pace maintained by all of the workers meant more Product. But workers were paying a price in terms of their health. What were some of the health and safety concerns you noticed in this section that seemed to result from the hectic pace and work with those substances and technologies?

JoanP

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"What were some of the health and safety concerns you noticed in this section that seemed to result from the hectic pace and work with those substances and technologies?"

Speed and exhaustion - contribute to accidents always. Considering the high voltage electricity coursing through the plants and the workers putting in overtime as the end is in site, I'm surprised we aren't hearing of more incidents like that maintenance man who forgot to hang the grounding on his unit.  One lapse like that, the man was electrocuted on the spot.  Was this an isolated accident?  I've noticed that most of the problems at the CEW site were dealt with speedily so they wouldn't recur.

There  were the medical reports stating that more testing of the radioactive material carried by the couriers needed to be tested. Good intentions - wanted to protect the couriers and others who came in contact with radiation.  I think it was Dr. Friedell who recommended the need for monitoring, for blood analysis - and research on animals and humans to see the effect of radiation in the blood, urine, feces.  It seems that this recommendation was carried too far on Ebb Cade, following a vehicle accident.  Am I mistaken - was that injection of plutonium administered  following Dr. Friedll's direction?   Was he ever held responsible?  Prosecuted? 
What if Ebb Cade had signed consent papers - would that have been a whole different ballgame?

marcie

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Safety seems not to have been a top priority. I am probably thinking about it from our current 21st Century view of building safety features into everything. I would have thought that  scientists could have figured out an automatic grounding system but I'm remembering that things we consider "unsafe" today were accepted in the 1940s and 50s and beyond. Kids could play with toys that were sharp; no seatbelts in cars, etc. If the Project was in a race against German scientists, and if it was thought to bring about the end of the War, it seems that some casualities were acceptable.

Joan, they didn't ask Cade for permission. And they didn't set his bones for several so that they could inject him before they set the bones. The way they were doing the research seems as if they didn't consider Cade to be a human being.

ursamajor

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There were people who didn't consider blacks to be human beings.  That doctor should have been working with the Nazis - they would have given him a wider variety of people to experiment on.  It is unforgivable that he was never called to account.

I guess Cade should be considered one of the casualties of war.  It would be interesting to know what happened to him after he walked out of the hospital and how his life was affected by the treatment he received.

bellamarie

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Reading these chapters sent chills down me, and brought tears to my eyes.  I am so depressed after reading these chapters.  Some can accept all of this because "it was to help end the war."  I can't seem to get my head to go there.  Maybe because I know there could have been a surrender, with only one condition stopping it, their emperor could stay, which ultimately they agreed upon.

I won't argue my points, or revisit all the reasons I can't accept this attitude as others do.  I just know in my heart using such a bomb of this magnitude seemed so careless.  To do an experiment, putting Americans at such a risk, in the explosion of this product was for me unfathomable.  Our B-29s had decimated Japan.  So for me the use of the atomic bomb was more about General Groves and Secretary Stimson wanting to use this bomb, because they could.  They withheld documents from President Truman that may have had an affect on his decision.  I know Truman said, he had no regrets, but in my opinion, I am certain he lived with many, as we now see the workers realizing their involvement, and their own mixed, confused feelings.

There is no confirmed proof, Cade walked out of that hospital of his own free will.  Knowing our government, my guess is he was disposed of and it was covered up.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Frybabe

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I had to take the book back today, but I did skim through the rest of the book before doing so. Now, to remember what I read. Will follow along.

I had always thought (or hoped) until recently, that the US held itself to a higher level of moral/ethical standard than many other countries. It appears that I was mistaken.

The military does like its toys. Of course they would have wanted to try it out in real time. The whole thing, including the bombing itself, was experimental. They really did not have a good handle on what radiation would or could do to a body. Who approved this testing on humans without their knowledge? I kind of understand the mentality of the doctor actually giving the injections. He was military and under direct order. He might have pointed out to his superior that it was unethical, but if the direct order stood, he would have to obey it. I don't think, in the middle of a war, too many people would have refused a direct order.

bellamarie

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Frybabe,   
Quote
I had always thought (or hoped) until recently, that the US held itself to a higher level of moral/ethical standard than many other countries. It appears that I was mistaken.

I too had hoped our government held the U.S. to a higher standard.  It never will, as long as politics and power come before the safety and best interest of people.  They use fear, emotions, and what is the most dear to us, to convince Americans that what they are doing is in our best interest, when most of the time it turns out to be lies, and all about politics and power.  I don't see myself as a cynic, I see myself as a realist.

My book is due back to the library as well, so I may pay a few cents of late fees, to keep it a few more days to take a few notes to end our discussion.  Not sure if I can renew it.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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In the Tubealloy section after Chapter 11, we learn that Vice President Truman had very little knowledge about the Project and had to be briefed after President Roosevelt died and he took office. What did you learn about the secrecy related to the Project at the highest levels of government? What was Truman's reaction when he finally found out about the Project?

JoanP

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One of my earliest memories - in the backyard with my grandmother as she was hanging out the wash.  A neighbor called over to her with the news that the President had died.  I remember being really frightened - had never seen her crying before.  Everyone was crying.  My favorite young uncle (23)  was getting ready to ship out for Japan.  The end of the war was nowhere in sight .and now the President who had guided us through the war to date...was no longer at the helm.

Can anyone explain what FDR had been thinking when he kept the A-bomb from the Vice President? I have never heard a good explanation of that.. The Congress had no idea either. HST - next in command, had been Vice President for 82 days, we're told!  And the President  had been quite ill.  This was wreckless and irresponsible in my opinion. Can anyone explain this?

marcie

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Joan, that's a great question. I hope someone here has read something about why Roosevelt might not have communicated with Truman about the Project. Was it because Roosevelt was sick and not thinking clearly?

In Chapter 12, we learn about the testing of the bomb and Truman's ultimate decision regarding its use.  What facts about the testing of the Gadget did you find interesting?

JoanP

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Maybe FDR didn't want Truman to know about it until tests were completed.  At this time, weren't scientists the only ones to know how destructive it was?  Maybe he didn't trust him.

bellamarie

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I spent a good portion of my evening trying to get an answer for you JoanP., on "why" didn't FDR inform Truman, knowing he was ill.  There is nothing that I could find that gives a specific answer to "why" other than it was top secret, which makes no sense, because the Vice President should be in the loop.  I read where he was kept out of meetings when it was being discussed.

I came away last night feeling just as frustrated and sickened as I did after reading the last couple of chapters of this book.  Reading entries of Truman's diaries, Stimson's, and others who were in positions on the know of this atomic bomb, and the surrender negotiations Japan was attempting of making, using the Soviet Union as mediator, shows the bomb was not necessary.

I misspoke when I thought Stimson was for using the bomb.  If anything after reading entries of conversations he discussed with Truman, after knowing Japan wanted to negotiate a surrender, Stimson suggested:
1.  Inform Japan they could face the atomic bomb. 
2.  Allow them to keep their Emperor. 
3. Make them aware that the Soviet Union would attack them. 

Truman feeling this would not constitute an "unconditional surrender" appeared to reject it.  These conditions could have prevented the use of the atomic bomb saving millions of lives, it would have prevented the Korean war, which resulted in even more lives lost, it would have ended WW11, and ultimately the Emperor remained anyway.

This is why it is so imperative we learn from our mistakes.  Negotiate, negotiate, and negotiate, especially when you know the other side is ready and willing.  Be clear on what you want, and what you are willing to give into.  It appears all along Truman was willing to allow them to keep their Emperor, and as Stimson said, they could still call it an "unconditional surrender" which was to keep face for Truman.  Just because you have the power to destroy another nation, does not mean you must use it.  Just them knowing you have that power could make all the difference between war and peace.

Very worthwhile read:
http://www.doug-long.com/hiroshim.htm

http://www.doug-long.com/hst.htm

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

mabel1015j

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I believe that it was said on Ken Burns' Roosevelt show that HST had only one lunch meeting with FDR after they were inaugurated and they didn't talk about anything substantial. FDR didn't know T very well and did not confide in him at all.

Jean

bellamarie

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I think the articles I gave links to will confirm this Jean.  Something of this magnitude, and miscommunications and lack of communications, between our president and crucial government people, and other countries, failed to prevent this disaster.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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After Truman was kept out of the loop, it actually fell to him to make the final decision. What are your thoughts about the radio announcement made by President Truman after the bomb was dropped? Did any of the wording stand out for you?

bellamarie

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Here is the audio of Truman's radio announcement after dropping the bomb.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/education/heroesvillains/g5/cs2/g5cs2s1.htm

A Warning to Japan Urging Surrender: Excerpts from President Truman's radio address to the American people, August 9, 1945

The British, Chinese, and United States Governments have given the Japanese people adequate warning of what is in store for them. We have laid down the general terms on which they can surrender. Our warning went unheeded; our terms were rejected. Since then the Japanese have seen what our atomic bomb can do. They can foresee what it will do in the future.

The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians. But that attack is only a warning of things to come. If Japan does not surrender, bombs will have to be dropped on her war industries and, unfortunately, thousands of civilian lives will be lost. I urge Japanese civilians to leave industrial cities immediately, and save themselves from destruction.

I realize the tragic significance of the atomic bomb.

Its production and its use were not lightly undertaken by this Government. But we knew that our enemies were on the search for it. We know now how close they were to finding it. And we knew the disaster, which would come to this Nation, and to all peace-loving nations, to all civilization, if they had found it first.

That is why we felt compelled to undertake the long and uncertain and costly labor of discovery and production.

We won the race of discovery against the Germans. Having found the bomb we have used it. We have used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare. We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans.

We shall continue to use it until we completely destroy Japan's power to make war. Only a Japanese surrender will stop us.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/primary-resources/truman-japanwarn/

After hearing Truman's voice, and how he seems proud, to be the "first" to create, and use the atomic bomb, it makes me wonder if all along that was the goal?  To be the "first".  He sure seems more determined to brag about having, and using the bomb, before anyone else.

"We won the race of discovery against the Germans."  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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"The Gadget  Revealed!"
I'll say!  Not only the gadget...but the people of Oak Ridge who had been working on it in secret through the years. I was shocked at the revelation of their identity...especially since they were expected to keep on working after the bomb was dropped.

I was not surprised at the jubilation in Harry's announcement!  This meant the war was coming to an end.  War, a race?  Yes, I agree, an arms race.  That's what war has always been.  He who has the biggest, most powerful weapon, will be the survivor.  The American people can finally breathe a sigh of relief and perhaps begin to recover from tremendous loss.
Note that the President said he wished to avoid the killing of civilians. Also he warned civilians to leave industrial cities to protect themselves. He was not out to kill civilians

"The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a "military base." That was because  he wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."  

Yes, I realize the tragic significance of the atomic bomb. I don't think any one is arguing about that.  The realization of the tremendous toll of the war would come later.
Right now, relief and celebration!  It's over!

"Its production and its use were not lightly undertaken by this Government. But we knew that our enemies were on the search for it. We know now how close they were to finding it. And we knew the disaster, which would come to this Nation, and to all peace-loving nations, to all civilization, if they had found it.
We shall continue to use it until we completely destroy Japan's power to make war. "

marcie

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I'm interpreting Truman's announcement that the U.S. was the "first" to successfully develop an atomic bomb, the same way as you are, JoanP. Both Germany and Japan were also trying to develop a nuclear bomb. We did not develop the bomb in a vacuum. "First" gives the correct impression that we were in competition with others. If we had not been first, then Germany or Japan (whichever was first) would have used the bomb (or used the threat of the bomb) on the U.S. or our allies to force OUR surrender.

JoanP

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Seriously - let's consider Harry Truman's position before deciding to pin  blame on him.  He's the newly elected Vice President, the beloved US President is incommunicato - maybe because of his illness - or maybe it's because he just doesn't like his new Veep (one he has chosen.)  The question that stands out in my mind - what did President Roosevelt plan to do with this bomb? Maybe he wanted to avoid using it?  Maybe he hadn't decided what to do with it - after spending so many millions (billions of $$ on it!)  Was he waiting for final test results in the desert? . Whatever the reason, he never bothered to mention the bomb to his vice president, who will have to make these decisions once FDR dies.  How many knew what Harry does not?  FDR must know he's in a bad way at this point.  Didn't he communicate with anyone about what to tell Harry?

The  President died on April 18, 1945.  Harry doesn't know about the bomb yet. (He's been VP for 82 days!)  "The majority of members of Congress" had no idea of the existance of the Project..."(WHO KNEW?)

The War Secretary contacted Truman on April 24 about an important meeting...Truman met with him the very next day, April 25.  Now he knows.
April 30, Hitler died.  May 6, 1945, the war in Europe is over.  

Within 24 hours, of the official end of the war, Project representatives, chaired by the Secretary of War gathered for a first meeting with the President, followed by a meeting with Project scientists a week later.  By May 31, Truman received a report with strong recommendations on the use of the Gadget.  Do you envy his position? I've always marvelled at how calmly he accepted his role as president in these unsteady times. 

"As for the final call, the buck stopped with President Truman."  What swayed his final decision on whether to use this Gadget or put it in storage somewhere?  I believe that he was convinced that the war would not be over until the Japanese were convinced that it was.  It took the bomb!

bellamarie

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I suppose each individual will interpret, from their own personal feelings, and thoughts the words Truman used in his address.  We can ONLY speculate, since of course we do not know HIS mindset.  It's a bit like reading a passage from the Bible, depending on our own personal place, we will see something in passages, that others do not interpret at all the same way.  But....we do have diaries and other written documents to give us truths, that can and does dispel the bomb was necessary.

It's very clear Stimson was trying to use other means to stop the war by his diary entries.  My impression is Truman had the bomb, and was bragging he was the "first" to use it.  Sorry if no one else sees it this way.  HE DID NO NEED TO USE THE BOMB to end the war and save lives.

This articles shows Japan was willing to surrender:

Quote
A Secret Memorandum

It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
Surrender of designated war criminals.
Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.


Quote
"The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a "military base." That was because  he wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."

Again.....I see this as a means to justify the ends.  This article shows differently:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

Quote
Justifications

President Truman steadfastly defended his use of the atomic bomb, claiming that it "saved millions of lives" by bringing the war to a quick end. Justifying his decision, he went so far as to declare: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."

This was a preposterous statement. In fact, almost all of the victims were civilians, and the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (issued in 1946) stated in its official report: "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets because of their concentration of activities and population."

If the atomic bomb was dropped to impress the Japanese leaders with the immense destructive power of a new weapon, this could have been accomplished by deploying it on an isolated military base. It was not necessary to destroy a large city. And whatever the justification for the Hiroshima blast, it is much more difficult to defend the second bombing of Nagasaki.

All the same, most Americans accepted, and continue to accept, the official justifications for the bombings. Accustomed to crude propagandistic portrayals of the "Japs" as virtually subhuman beasts, most Americans in 1945 heartily welcomed any new weapon that would wipe out more of the detested Asians, and help avenge the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. For the young Americans who were fighting the Japanese in bitter combat, the attitude was "Thank God for the atom bomb." Almost to a man, they were grateful for a weapon whose deployment seemed to end the war and thus allow them to return home.

After the July 1943 firestorm destruction of Hamburg, the mid-February 1945 holocaust of Dresden, and the fire-bombings of Tokyo and other Japanese cities, America's leaders -- as US Army General Leslie Groves later commented -- "were generally inured to the mass killing of civilians." For President Harry Truman, the killing of tens of thousands of Japanese civilians was simply not a consideration in his decision to use the atom bomb.

"Its production and its use were not lightly undertaken by this Government. But we knew that our enemies were on the search for it. We know now how close they were to finding it. And we knew the disaster, which would come to this Nation, and to all peace-loving nations, to all civilization, if they had found it first."

Why does he justify using the atomic bomb "first" as if because the U.S. did it before others, the destruction was not devastating?

Throughout all of history, the American people have wanted to trust their government.  We want to believe they make decisions for the best interest and safety of our country.  Throughout all of history, it has been repeated behavior, presidents past and present, use the trust of the American people to make political decisions, that deal more with their own personal agenda, political party, and power seeking.  They use the media for their own cover ups.  Special investigations and documents uncover truths, and reveal to the public sooner or later the reality.  I for one am no longer choosing to be spoon fed by our government, and president for the sake of their agendas.  The fact Roosevelt deemed it necessary to keep his Vice President Truman in the dark about the atomic bomb, gives me enough reason to believe the bomb was being created to be "the first to use it" as he so boldly and proudly states in his address.  Both presidents refused to take the intelligent advice of their generals, secretary of State, and even allies, in using other productive methods to end the war.  Arrogance gets in the way of many presidents and thank God, Kennedy had a calmer head, and was willing to take the time to listen to his advisors, before pressing that button!

To end the war, to save lives, and to kill the least amount of civilians......I think NOT.  The women of Atomic City were duped, just as the American people were.  This argument has gone on for centuries and will continue to go on for centuries.  All we can do now, is pray no other leader will make the mistake of passing up a surrender, or even the chance of a surrender, before using such a devastating nuclear bomb in our future.

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ursamajor

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If Germany had been "the first to use it", and they were well on the way to finishing the research, the Allies would have lost the war.  Where would be today?  I think we could look at occupied Europe and Manchuria to get some idea.

marcie

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I think you're right, ursamajor.

We're all just trying to put pieces together and figure out for ourselves what we think happened and why it happened the way it did, whether or not we agree with those who made the decisions. I'm wondering, if Japan was willing to surrender, even before our bombing, why they did not do so after the first bombing. We said that we were going to drop bombs until they did surrender. It seems it took TWO bombs (on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) before Japan surrendered.

It's probably the case the most Vice Presidents were used to not being consulted or even informed about a lot, however his being kept in the dark about this devastating weapon that the U.S. had been in a race to create must have been quite a shock to Truman when he was finally told about it. The General's argument of how could a country not use a weapon that they had created to bring an end to the War, was probably persuasive.

Frybabe

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I remember years ago that I read or saw a documentary (have no clue anymore what) in which it was stated that they were surprised by the actual devastation (short and long term) that the bombs caused. It would not be surprising to me if they also didn't yet know the full extent of the long-term damage that radiation did to humans and the environment.

JoanP

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That's it, Frybabe - we have to remember that this bomb is experimental.  No one knows now the effects of radiation on humans.  We read with horror the attempts to learn of the experiments to find that out.  
Also, there was no proof that the Japanese would surrender before more lives were lost.  My uncle, a soldier,  was on his way to Japan - when the bomb was detonated.  Harry Truman was confronted by military advisors as soon as he learned of the bomb - These men had been working on this bomb for years.  The bomb was promised to end the war...to bring the boys (and Uncle George)  home.  It did.  It accomplished that.  Harry made up his mind - there was no turning back at that point.  Can you imagine the effect on the American people if they learned that their President Roosevelt had supported this weapon - and the new President declined to use it - to bring the war to an end.  
The response of the Japanese people - the relief, the gratitude, the expressions of friendship, once their leadership conceded defeat, said it all.

I wonder how many of Denise Keirnan's readers believe she is using this book to express regret for the use of the bomb.  Maybe we should get back to the book - consider the reaction of the girls who have just learned that they had been working on the bomb...remember  the American people's reaction  to the news.  The "girls" at this point in time are her focus in the book, no?.