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Ön görüsmemize hosgeldiniz
(Welcome to our Pre-Discussion)
An adventure story held together by a young boy, Jahan and his gift to the Salton, a pet albino elephant. The Ottoman palace is full of rooms within rooms that include many characters, both real and imaginary, swashbuckling soldiers, mysterious Gypsies, guileless courtesans. A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century
“I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three Sultans
Discussion Starts:
Monday, September 17
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Helpful Links for reading and watching “People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing … Istanbul.” - Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque) (https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/early-europe-and-colonial-americas/ap-art-islamic-world-medieval/a/mosque-edirne)
- A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNgc02-jvE)
- 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpcQEGw3S4)
- Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDWaBmKpfY)
- Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IYqgkrrJ0)
- Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqB57PVWQE)
- Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQtaQYpzTw)
- Janissaries (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHhLXmDox8)
- Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan (https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/06/19/facts-ottoman-janissaries/)
- Mimar Sinan (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YrijHoDmw)
- Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments (http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sinan.htm)
- Elif Safak, author (http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/)
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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And so we begin to explore a time and place few of have read about much less studied during our school years. Like many of you, we read about the Crusades and maybe even heard of Saladin who defeated the crusader army south of the Horns of Hattin. But all that took place during the Twelfth century.
The Sixteenth century is when the Tudor dynasty was leading England - in Paris, Francis I became the first French king to make the Louvre his residence - The Italian Renaissance peaked in the mid-16th century - The Americas were incorporated into the Spanish Empire - Spain forced the conversions of Jews and Muslims outlawing both - Rome renewed the Inquisition to combat Protestant heresy - In 1580 Spain conquered Portugal and began rounding up and slaughtering Jews that had fled Spain - Ivan the Terrible in Russia rules with ferocious severity, takes the title Tsar and marries Anastasia - In German-speaking lands there is the revolution of printing and the Protestant Reformation is unleashed.
A brutal time in history when leadership ruled with the hand of death and the Ottoman Empire was no exception. In the midst of all the brutality is the Renaissance filled with glorious accomplishments in the arts; painting, writing, sculpture, architecture, dance, music, gardens, and the beginnings of modern science.
With so much history of this time and place available Jahan, the main character of The Architect’s Apprentice, is the perfect vehicle to carry the story - nothing specific is historically noted about this or any apprentice to Mimar Sinan, the sultan’s chief architect where as, many of the other characters are true to known history.
I've been as wide eyed as a kid in the city for the first time as I found one bit after the other about the Ottoman Empire and particularly during the sixteenth century. This rare novel has the power to enlighten and transform us - this story is far more than riding a magic carpet - this novel has the stuff that allows us to explore a vision of justice, equality, and self-transcendence when life throws us a curve.
For the next few days in preparation for out discussion of The Architect's Apprentice, let's steep ourselves in all that is the Ottoman Empire and learn more about the characters that lived during this time in history who will people this story - everyone, grab a chair and light your lamps
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Marking my spot.
My youngest sister is up from Wilmington with her husband and two cats until this hurricane crisis is over. They are currently staying at a hotel. She says the cars didn't take to the drive up - at all. Don't know yet how they are taking the hotel room. I might be able to squeeze them in here, but I won't be able to keep them separate from my cats very easily. I may not be here much for a few days.
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I hear that the nabbing of a hotel room is not easy and my sister also had issues with her vehicle as she drove to my daughters - sounds like there is a lot in common with both your sister's experience and mine - the difference is there are cats involved - that does get to be tricky -
In the scheme of things between now and Monday a lot can happen - the storm does seem to have been downgraded but then it is huge with lots of rain - evidently it is the flooding that is the big concern since the drainage along the southern east coast is not that great - with this making landfalls on Friday there is the weekend for the area to settle down - we will all be waiting and praying -
Regardless the circumstances I sure hope you and your sister have a good visit - it is harder when there is disaster on the back of your mind but maybe part of disasters is for folks to get closer together - hope so -
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'...this novel has the stuff that allows us to explore a vision of justice, equality, and self-transcendence when life throws us a curve.'
What a brilliant heading, Barb. This book surely adds one more to the Thousand and One Arabian Nights. 'Rooms within rooms'...now there's an architecutural trick. What a book cover! Laying on the desk, it shows me only a white elephant, on a dark background. Propping it up, with the light hitting it, the glittering mosque appears. Awesome. Is that our hero, Jahan, between the elephant's legs?
I've never known a courtesan to be guileless. But then we're going for the center of the universe. Methinks that love is part of the story. For better or for worse.
'Her cats...my cats...', here's another story developing...keep us posted, Frybabe.
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Picked up my book today at my library. The cover is stunning! Jonathan, we will soon find out if the sultan beneath the elephant is Jahan. Interesting, is he a our hero?
Frybabe and Barb, I am so happy to hear your loved ones are to a safe place. I am seeing pics of the outgoing traffic, and it is just unbelievable. Last year it was my daughter and son in law leaving their home in Florida, caught in this type of traffic. I was worried sick for hours because their cells phones died and they had no way to get in touch with me until they finally reached his family in Georgia. My prayers are with all those in the path of this horrific hurricane.
Barb, I hope your toe is better and you have managed to get more sleep. I hate it when I get out of my sleep pattern and feel punch drunk for days.
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Ah, the cats. Yes, they are safely ensconced under the bed at the local Red Roof Inn. Barb does not want to bring them over here for fear of a major ruckus that may or may not result. Sue and Barb have cancelled their trip to Nova Scotia, i think partly because the cats didn't take the car drive well. She didn't want her Hubby to have to drive back down by himself with screaming cats the whole way. They are also worried about the house, which would have spoiled some of the trip for Barb. The extra cost to leave from here was also a factor. Believe it or not, it was much cheaper to fly to Toronto from Wilmington than from here.
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Cats!!! I am picturing the hullabaloo traveling with cats.
I know there are many links above to keep us all busy, but I have one that Elif has placed in the back of her book and thought it would also give us some insights and information about our author. Enjoy!
http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/
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I rarely ever look at the back of a book before reading the entire book. When I picked up my book from the library, I was sitting in my car with the book in my lap, I picked it up haphazardly and it fell open to the back page titled Author's Note, it caught my eye so I began reading. I came home and clicked on our discussion in here, and lo and behold, we are discussing our family and friends evacuating their homes and being stuck in traffic,and also our comments about how the book cover was so striking to all of us.. Coincidental.... well, you decide. This is what I read:
Author's Note
I am not sure whether writers choose their subjects or whether their subjects somehow come to find them. For me, at least, it felt like the latter with The Architect's Apprentice. The idea for this novel emerged for the first time on one sunny afternoon in Istanbul, while I was inside a cab that was stuck in traffic. I was looking out of the window and frowning, already late for an appointment, when my eyes moved across the road to a mosque by the seaside. It was Molla Celebi, one of Sinan's lesser known beauties. a Gypsy boy was sitting on the wall next to it, pounding on a tin box that was turned upside down, I thought to myself that if the traffic did not clear any time soon, I might as well begin to imagine a story with the architect Sinan and Gypsies in it. Then the car moved on and I totally forgot the idea, until a week later a book arrived by post. It was Gulru Necipoglu's The Age of Sinan: Architectural Culture in the Ottoman Empire, sent by a dear friend. Inside the book, one particular drawing caught my eye: it was a painting of Sultan Suleiman, tall and sleek in his kaftan. But it was the figures in the background that intrigued me. There was an elephant and a mahout in front of the Suleimaniye Mosque; they were hovering on the edge of the picture, as if ready to run away, unsure as to what they were doing in the same frame as the Sultan and the monument dedicated to him. I could not take my eyes off this image. The story had found me.
While writing this book I wanted to understand not only Sultan's world but also those of the chief apprentices, workers, slaves and animals who were there alongside him. However, when one is writing about an artist who has lived as long ago, and produced as much, as Sinan, the biggest challenge is the reconstruction of time. It took from seven to nine years to finish a mosque, and Sinan constructed more than 365 buildings of various sizes. So, in the interest of narrative pace, I decided to jettison a strict chronological order and to create my own timeframe, with actual historical events absorbed into the new timeline. For instance, in reality, Mihrimah got married at the age of seventeen, but I wanted her to marry later, to give her and Jahan more time together. Her husband, Rustem Pasha, died in 1561; yet for the sake of the story, I wanted him around a bit longer. Captain Gareth is an entirely fictional character, but he is based both on European sailors who had joined the Ottoman navy, and on Ottaman sailors who had switched sides. Their stories have not yet been told.
It was a conscious decision to bring Takiyuddin into the story at an earlier point in history. In fact, he became the Chief Royal Astronomer at the time of Sultan Murad. But the trajectory of the observatory was important to me, so I shifted the date of Grand Vizier Sokollu's death. The painter Melchior and the ambassador Busbecq were historical characters who arrived in Istanbul around 1555, but I have fictionalized the moments of their arrival and departure. In several books I have come across allusions to a group of Ottoman architects in Rome, but what exactly they were doing there remains obscure. I imagined them as Sinan's apprentices, Jahan and Davud. And there really was an elephant named Suleiman in Vienna, whose story has been beautifully narrated by Jose Saramago in The Elephant's Journey.
Finally, this novel is a product of the imagination. Yet historical events and real people have guided and inspired me. I benefited enormously from a great many sources in English and Turkish, from Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq's Turkish Letters to Metin. And's Istanbul in the Sixteenth Century: The City, the Palace, Daily Life.
"May the world flow like water," Sinan used to say. I can only hope that this story, too, will flow like water in the hearts of its readers.
Elif Shafak
So, like this story found Elif, I too, feel her story found us! A book cover inspired her, as does the cover of her book, leaves us a bit in awe. We shall see if her story, "flows like water."
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Wow thanks so much Bellamarie - the quote really sets the scene for us doesn't it - I looked up the books she speaks of and oh my her book budget is much higher than mine - but then most of the books about Ottoman culture or Ottoman art are in the high dollar category. Which only ads to the grandeur I'm suspecting we continue to encounter reading this book. It sure found us didn't it - flows like water - hmm another allusion that can have many interpretations - will it flow like the water delivered by Florence I wonder?
Ha everyone pictures cats as a group in their own world - a world that ignores the needs and wants of their so called owners. You never hear about the cats that president's bring into the White House - lots of dogs and stories published about White House dogs but not about White House cats - so much so that I could not think of a recent president who had a cat - well was I surprised to learn nearly all of them had a cat - we just do not hear about them. Now there is a story to write...
Who would have guessed frybabe it was less expensive to fly to Nova Scotia from Wilmington than from where you are located
Still need to explore your link Bellamarie - till later...
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Wow just opened the link Bellamarie and it appears I can spend hours absorbing all the links included - this is some author we happened onto - she has fabulous quotes
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Yes, Barb, I got caught up in all those links, and realized I had spent too much time reading them. I will have to go back a few times, because my curiosity is so piqued with this author. I didn't even realize Elif was a woman until I went to this site.
Cats are absolutely hilarious. I had a cat named Bernie for fourteen years. I loved that darn cat, and he came up missing one day. Both my sons have a cat, and these cats seriously take the attention away from everyone in the house. I can sit hours watching my one son's cat Mr. C. Gotta tell you a funny story, each of their cats were first thought to be females, and were named Bella and Chole, only to later realize they were males, so they changed their names. Chole is now called Mr. C. Bella was changed to Frank. lolol
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I found this especially interesting..... let's keep it in mind as we read this book:
THE ARCHITECT'S APPRENTICE
There were six of us: the master, the apprentices and the white elephant. We built everything together. Mosques, bridges, madrasas, ravanserais, alms houses, aqueducts...
I think about Istanbul every day. People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques not knowing, not seeing. They would rather assume that the buildings around them had been there since the time of Noah. They were not. We raised them: Muslims and Christians, craftsmen and galley slaves, humans and animals, day upon day.
But Istanbul is a city of easy forgettings. Things are written in water over there, except the works of my master, which are written in stone.
Beneath one stone, I buried a secret. Much time has gone by, but it must still be there, waiting to be discovered. I wonder if anyone will ever find it. If they do, will they understand?
Hmmm...... I wonder what the buried secret could be?
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So good to see you Callie.
I think this book is going to prove to be way more than museums and romance.
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Thank you, bellamarie. My e-book on loan arrived this morning. Not sure I'll be able to renew in 2 weeks so will have to read ahead. Probably won't be able to study all the information links, either - but I'll enjoy reading the comments.
Barb, thank you for the Time Line. I always like seeing what's going on in different parts of the world during the same time period.
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So glad you will be with us Callie - as you read and come across things like within the first 18 pages aspects of Architecture are included - there is a link - in fact the fist link that will help you understand - some of the links are short and are only for a better understanding of the new things we will be reading about.
Idea for you Callie - since you only have the book for the 2 weeks why not keep notes and jot down what was your thinking or your questions about what was happening for each of the 4 sections - that way you can remember what was included in just that section.
Bellamarie I also wondered about the secret and then the more I thought on it I'm thinking that all undocumented life is a secret - that lovers and parents and soldiers and criminals, all experienced life on certain streets, buildings, hills and what happened that the result may have affected many, if not of historical importance was woven into the fabric of life and are secret threads that bind us and that we can only imagine the what and how it all came about.
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Barb, Thanks for the suggestions. I'm sure I'll being opening at least some of the links. You're a Gem providing all the information you do to supplement the reading. Thank you!!!!!!!
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So good to hear from you, Callie. This book is a keeper. I don't think you will be able to part with it after two weeks.
I'm delighted to be going to a place that was among the first things we learned about in the early grades in geography. Constantinople...the crossroads of the world. Who could forget the Dardenelles that joined the Sea of Murmurs to that other Sea of Dark Waters, the name of which I can't remember at the moment.
What a coincidence! In the first sentence. We're greeted by 'a fierce growl...from the largest cat in the Sultan's palace.'
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I haven’t been here due to a move from independent living to assisted living. The last few weeks have kept us in an uproar. But I have been intrigued by all of your wonderful comments so I will see if I can get the book at a nearby library and have my DIL pick it up Sunday before she comes to get my old apartment emptied. I will go down tomorrow and grab a few pictures plus a few more things and say good bye to that big lovely place!😢😢😢❤️❤️❤️🤓🙏
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Annie, it is so nice to see you, I think of you often. How are you liking your new assisted living? My dil's grandmother moved into an assisted living place, very nice, and she loves it. It's near all her family so they visit her every morning, take her to dinner and brings her to all the week end family events. This looks like a pretty interesting book, glad you are going to join us.
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So good to hear from you, Callie. This book is a keeper. I don't think you will be able to part with it after two weeks. Jonathan, I can renew it but if there's a waiting list, I'll be put at the end and might not get it back for a while.
Will have to check in on my Oklahoma Sooners' and All My Chlldren's Oklahoma State Cowboys' football games today. Otherwise, I plan to begin reading "The Architect's Apprentice".
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Annie - how fabulous to hear from you - yes, if you can join us that will be grand but just a post now and again, letting us know how you are, is a treat... hope your new arrangement will be shortly as homey as the one you just left - many changes in our lives aren't their Annie - I bet your family is nearby and they continue to be your touchstone.
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Callie hope the weather is nice where you are so the game and tailgate parties can be enjoyed - we do not play until tonight at 7: with hopes the rain is gone but it is not looking good - after all the weeks and months of triple digit we are, I think it is over 2 weeks now with nothing but rain. Nothing around here seems to know the word moderation.
Looks like you are almost into sweater wearing time - nice to curl up with a book during a cool night and nothing on TV anymore so enjoy away...
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Bellamarie your wonderful link to the author's page is now in the heading.
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haha love it - yes the coincidence on cats is just perfect isn't it Jonathan - however, I would not want to hear the cat in our book during a dark and windy night in my garden.
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Annie, it's so good to see you here. I've missed you. I think you'll like the book; it kind of sucks one in.
You've moved to more intense quarters in the same facility? That will give you some continuity in friends, staff, and routine. Good luck to you.
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Callie, it's great to have you in the discussion. Let's hope no one puts a hold on your book. With ebooks, keeping it overdue isn't an option. ;)
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Not sure but I’m on the wait list! This book is really popular which means a wait for me!
Could be short! Hope so!
Yes, once I adjust to this move, I will be fine. I know people on both sides of this place!:). Of course I do!
Did I tell you all that this place is run by the Carmalite nuns? So today at 4pm, I went to Mass, then to supper and returned to my new home while I await The OSUvsTcu game to start at 8pm. I’m in the football pool so will watch it with the folks in the living room on the IL side of the “home”! :) we all bring stuff to munch on! Probably many of them will return to their apartments but not me. Last year one of the games ended after midnight. Many of the male fans gave up but the ladies were there ‘til the
end and OSU won!
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Annie how fun to watch the Ohio game with lots of others. My hubby was born and raised in Toledo, Ohio and is a huge Buckeye fan. I was born and raised in Monroe, Michigan and am a huge Wolverine fan. We are what they call, " A house divided." We have so much fun when our two teams play each other. Enjoy your game tonight!
I have not begun reading the book, it's been a very busy few days with the grandkids sports and me visiting family out of town, so I plan to begin tomorrow afternoon once Zoey & Zak go home and we have dinner with the family to celebrate a couple of the granddaughter's birthdays. So, yet one more conicidence...... a cat is mentioned in our story?
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The buried secret:
This nobody knows, but at the bottom of one of the hundreds of buildings that my master built rests hidden the centre of the universe.
What could it be? We've just read a description of it, and the few who have experienced it. Is there some token that represents it? Or perhaps an underground space where, for a while, Jahan experienced the peace and beauty that exist at the center?
Something to look forward to.
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Did you notice, in the author's quote Bellamarie posted, that those who were in that discussion will meet an old friend here?
"And there really was an elephant named Suleiman in Vienna, whose story has been beautifully narrated by Jose Saramago in The Elephant's Journey.
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That makes it even better. I don't even have to be reading the book to enjoy it. It's stunning just laying on my desk. What a glorious spine, with Suleiman following so meekly behind Jahan.
And to think that we owe this marvellous story to a traffic jam in Istanbul!
The secret? Finding peace and beauty in this storied city. We're just the folks to find them. What a fine group coming together.
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Wow - now this really let's me know how quickly time is flying - it seemed in my mind's eye like only last year, two at the most but here is our discussion 7 years ago for The Elephant's Journey.
http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2526.0
Meeting old friends - secrets buried - this is like a scavenger hunt popular at teen parties this time of year.
Looks like the heaviest rains from Florence is closing in on Charlotte NC - Last I heard that is where the storm is expected to swing north.
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Jonathan interesting about the illustration on the cover - it hit me - the largest and to both architect, Sinan and what we read about Islam, the mosque is the closest thing to God and on the cover not only in gold on a black ground but taking up the greater portion of the image - then the white elephant, gift to the Salton, refers to a very famous incident that took place in the Arabian Peninsula in the same year Prophet Muhammad was born. It demonstrates how God protected the land that was to become the focal point of the last revelation.
Pat Is the secret the last revelation do you think?
Here is the famous story of the elephant and the Prophet Muhammad -
https://www.al-islam.org/life-muhammad-prophet-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/year-elephant
Including an elephant in this sixteenth century story of the Ottoman Empire may be the last hurrah since at the end of the century gunpowder was the favorite weapon during war and that was the end of using elephants in battle. I did read that elephants had been tamed since 4500 BC, starting as help in agriculture.
With the slow but powerful elephant and a life long attachment between elephant and Mahout as a cultural given. that image sure gives a different view of life compared to our own history where men, depending on an animal used a swiftly moving horse. And that is another story since the horse was brought to the continent by Spain. Some escaped or were let loose and became wild, populating the land. All this in the sixteenth century as well - interesting, we do not read anything about the fighting style of North American Natives before the horse.
Back to our cover - the smallest image seems to be the Mahout wearing a turban - sure puts things into perspective if size and space in an illustration is the allegory.
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Just hit me - not much difference between a minaret and a bell tower - they are both very high slim structures from where a call to prayer alerts those within hearing range.
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Here you are, Barb. What a great discussion you made of Elephant's Journey. Nearing it's conclusion, you posted this:
'I have always wanted to read a book about Suleiman and this has whet my appetite.'
Do you think our author read the Saramago book?
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Jonathan it appears so - I believe it was Bellamarie that brought to our attention comments from the author where she said something - I forget just what it was but something about her using Saramago's book during her research to write The Apprentice Architect - several of the books she mentioned I looked for and found but my word - each far exceeding my book budget.
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OK at the risk of being redundant I am putting just the schedule here because I am watching for the page change to load the new heading that starts our Discussion - so here is the schedule and I think that gives me the number of pasts needed when the page turns
Discussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Wednesday, September 19......Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Monday October 1.....................The Dome - to page 256
- Monday October 8.....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Monday October 15...................After the Master
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heading - OH shoot one more... I'll fill this in later with something more interesting that just showing my faux pas
Wow - just reviewed the Elephant's Journey discussion - that book hit me at such a vulnerable time as I struggled to unearth the difference in what i was taught and what I learned over the years about the religion I practice and then at the time my heart was conflicted since my very best friend who had a very strong personality was seeing and assuming things - and then that book came along - talk about a stream of consciousness as my struggle and natural bent to research whenever I struggle with anything - whoosh...
Has anyone else looked into their Enneagram - I'm a perfect 5 - https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/
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Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three SultansDiscussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Monday October 1.....................The Dome - to page 256
- Monday October 8.....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Monday October 15...................After the Master
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Helpful Links for reading and watching “People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.” - Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque) (https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/early-europe-and-colonial-americas/ap-art-islamic-world-medieval/a/mosque-edirne)
- A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNgc02-jvE)
- 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpcQEGw3S4)
- Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDWaBmKpfY)
- Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IYqgkrrJ0)
- Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqB57PVWQE)
- Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQtaQYpzTw)
- Janissaries (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHhLXmDox8)
- Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan (https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/06/19/facts-ottoman-janissaries/)
- Mimar Sinan (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YrijHoDmw)
- Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments (http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sinan.htm)
- Elif Safak, author (http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/)
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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A few Questions for us to consider..
- Our story starts near the end of Sinan's life - Sinan is age 85 - Given that Jahan at age 12, arrived in Istanbul the day that Suleiman the Magnificent became the new Salton, and this chapter is about the grandson of Suleiman taking on the role of Sultan, what age does that make Jahan?
- What do we learn from these first pages about the characteristics of Jahan?
- Who is Sheitan?
- What is a hamam?
- Who are what are viziers?
- These few pages are filled with description of how the senses intensify apprehension and fear. What quotes, words drive the intensity of a scene making more of the simple content of the scene.
- In the Ottoman Empire a policy of judicial royal fratricide was practiced when a new Sultan ascended to the throne. All of his surviving brothers are killed by strangulation with a silk cord as soon as he had produced his first male heir. Does this practice of killing siblings remind you of the Princes in the Tower in England? Starting with Cain and Able in history or myth what other brother kills brother over ascending the throne? What benefit was this practice to the Empire?
- What is a padishah versus a Salton versus a Califf?
- Can you, like Theseus with the ball of yarn from Ariadne, retrace the steps, that brought Jahan from the menagerie, as keeper of an elephant, sleeping with fleas, to the esteemed task of building a tomb in the grounds of the most significant mosque in Istanbul, Hagia Sophia at the Sulton's personal request. What was the path, the incidents, the characters, the sounds that united the two careers of Jahan?
We know that all stories are told in the first sentence or paragraph or in this case, the un-named section and so, we know now to uncover winding storylines. The author has laid down her way of leading us through her story -
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Just a quick aside before I start reading, Barb. I am interested in the article on the Janissaries (which I haven't completely finished reading yet). They showed up in one of the SciFi series I read a while back where many of the colonized worlds were founded by various religious, political or ethno groups were seeking worlds of their own where they would not have to deal with interference from others with different belief systems. Anyway, I didn't realize they were slave-warriors. Giving slaves weapons seems a bit dangerous for the power elite. I'm curious to see how they controlled them.
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Good question, Frybabe...how did the power elite control the Janissaries? They became a power unto themselves. One is always hearing about the Janissaries. Much has been written about them, including this recent mystery by Jason Goodwin: The Janissary Tree. He also wrote A History of the Ottaman Empire.
Barb, you have set the most attractive table for this discussion. All those wonderful links!!! They will serve marvellously well as a magic carpet. And isn't it a marvel when you catch sight of the Haghia Sohpia, Istanbul's Statue of Liberty. Or rather, icon of wisdom? As seen through Jahan's eyes, in old age, in middle age, as a twelve-year-old. This is going to be a wild ride.
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The link that sucked me in was the first one, the Mosque of Selim II, Edirne. It's a nice clear explanation of the architectural parts. And what a wonderful space that mosque is! Sinan deserved every bit of his reputation.
Barb, it was a great idea to put times on all your youtube links. It's a big help in picking what to watch next.
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Interesting frybabe that science fiction would use a bit of reality - but then I do not read much science fiction so the genre may be built on real people, movements, times in history - As to the slave army - as I understand it this was a normal part of warfare - when you loose the victor blunders and takes children, also women as slaves. Here is the Americas the history of native tribes is full of this practice. I remember years ago in a museum in Victoria BC a native women and her grandson were at the exhibit that included dioramas of various ceremonies and daily living. I could overhear and she was explaining to her grandson, about 10 or 12 new information to him that she had been captured as a child from a tribe in Saskatchewan and she was not at all from the tribe that he and his family were part of.
As to the Janissary, as I understand they were captured as young boys and given the most elite training but they must not have all been captured slave boys since Sinan was a Janissary - His farther was captured where as Sinan was from either Istanbul or close by - I forget - anyhow his service in first the army and later he was promoted into the Janissary which was where he made his reputation as a builder - during various wars he erected bridges and other structures, all new ideas and that allowed the Ottoman's to win. As a result he came to the attention of the Sultan and one thing led to another.
Thanks Jonathan for your kind words - once we start to unravel what we are reading the research takes on a life of its own - the Haghia Sohpia - there are no words - and to realize this structure was built so long ago and is still visited - such a magnificent structure.
I thought of you when the book was included in our list - I remember a book discussion about a dome in Tuscany built during the renaissance, forget name of the book and the name of the structure and oh how awful, cannot think of the name of the architect - something that started with a B - anyhow there were only a few of us and as I recall and unfortunately the steam went out of the discussion. But I did remember you were engaged with the whole idea of the building of that dome - that was the first I even knew about the difficulty - never really thought about it and took those ceilings for granted.
Pat yes, I too thought the link to the Mosque in Edime was a real help - I'm still not sure I understand squinches but I figured there will be enough information on various sites that I will be able to put it all together in my mind and figure it out. As to the links - the only one I do not have times is one of the more valuable about the Haram - in context it is well over an hour but it is broken up into very short segments that I have not timed - to put an index together for all those segments would be a feat and take up tons of space but it is for sure a documentary that can be successful watched in pieces.
The part of the story that starts on Wednesday includes a young girl and an older woman that to understand how the Haram functions really brings the story more depth and meaning. What shocked me was to learn that these women were captured. Says something about the bloodlines among the ruling class in Turkey since the mothers of these Sultans are from other lands and governing in Turkey continued the ways of the Sultans till the 1920s - talk about a cross roads of the world, even in generations of birth among this ruling class.
I guess we will find out as we get further into the book but I wondered why Elif Shafak starts with a time when Sinan is an old man and then goes into the chronological time line for Jahan - even more striking was to read how Jahan, who I have yet to calculate his age, the book only says he is in his 40s and yet, in my mind he acts like a teen or at most someone in their 20s and he is still an apprentice to Sinan - I guess that is a role he has till the death of Master Sinan.
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Barb, you never seize to amaze me with your links, pictures and knowledge you provide when you are our discussion leader. I always get a bit overwhelmed, thinking it's more than I am ready to tackle, only because it's usually a topic I know little to nothing about, but then as I begin, I realize I'm on the cusp of a real eye opener, and learning experience. So let it begin....
While we all are taken a back with the brilliant cover of this book, we must not allow ourselves to miss even the slightest of words that this author has chosen to share with us, such as the opener:
For apprentices everywhere__no one told us that love was the hardest craft to master
Is there such a thing as mastering, love? I fear not. Many a poets have attempted to put "LOVE" into words over the centuries, and yet, I feel they too fall short of mastering it. These for instance are wonderful attempts:
At one glance I loved you with a thousand hearts
. . . Let the zealots think loving is sinful
Never mind,
Let me burn in the hellfire of that sin.
_Mihri Hatun, sixteenth-century Ottoman poetess
I have searched the world and found nothing worthy of love,
hence I am a stranger amid my kinfolk
and an exile from their company.
_Mirabai, sixteenth-century Hindu poetess
And I too would like to add what I feel is an attempt to master "Love" by the greatest poet known, and the book most widely read ever.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8YHLiIhdQ1Uf5p0iQ9E1b05MyBMJsRqYVRNpMO0CLJTnoqMC1)
I have to ask myself after reading these first introductory pages of this book, what exactly is this author referring to as Love? Is he seeing love as an emotion, a person, a place, an object, an allusion, etc., etc. What do you, the reader see "Love" as? Can it be all of these? Can love be mastered, like a craft?
I have only read up through pages 1 & 2 of this book and I am blown away with the style of this author. For some reason I still am finding myself seeing this author as a male, rather than a female. Why is this? Is it because I am concentrating too much on Sinan? I guess only time will tell.
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Oh my....... so here we are only on page one of the book and we are being told,
Of all the people God created and Sheitan led astray, only a few have discovered the Centre of the Universe__ where there is no good and no evil, no past and no future, no 'I' and no 'thou', no war and no reason for war, just an endless sea of calm. What they found there was so beautiful that they lost their ability to speak.
Is this not what Heaven/Paradise is described as? Why would you need to speak with so much contentment?
The angels, taking pity on them, offered two choices. If they wished to regain their voices, they would have to forget everything they had seen, albeit a feeling of absence would remain deep in their hearts. If they preferred to remember the beauty, however, their minds would become so befuddled that they would not be able to distinguish the truth from the mirage. So the handful who stumbled upon that secret location, unmarked on any map, returned either with a sense of longing for something, they knew not what, or with myriads of questions to ask. Those who yearned for completeness would be called 'the lovers', and those who aspired to knowledge 'the learners'.
Hmmmm...... so much like the tree of knowledge, we learn about in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve chose to pick of the fruit, this too, is a choice given to make.
Sin or no sin? Knowledge or pure contentment? Good or evil? God or Satan?
Which would you see yourself choosing?
I wish I could look back and say that I have learned to love as much as I loved to learn.
Does our human nature draw us to chose knowledge, over love? This sure leaves me with a lot to ponder.....and here we are, only on page one.
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"Love" - the more you think on it I bet this story is about love - and the complexity of how do you love when you know and experience fear and abandonment - all these slaves are adjusting yes, but they are isolated from their childhood and maybe from each other as they seek protection and acceptance from strangers that become over time their new family.
I guess some would bury themselves in their work just as we use any obsessive outlet to cover our pain - and others would simply adapt - if they were young their training in their new religion would simply be an extension of their former religious training for what it was at the time.
Yes, the words of love are a curiosity aren't they Bellamarie - We shall see how the author handles love but from the quick quotes in these first pages from Sinan, he seems to fit the expression of love from Corinthians -
Islam also has quotes on love - "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, you will not enter Paradise unless you believe, and you will not believe unless you love each other. Should I direct you to something that if you constantly did it, you would love each other? Spread the greetings of peace among you."
"Romantic love is very strong and emotional, but does not last, while real love is linked to the land and life and can withstand trials." He adds, "It is impossible that one adapts the powerful emotions in romantic love. This love seems like a cake, a person enjoys eating it, then it is followed by the period of downfall. While real love means sharing the concerns of daily life and cooperation for it to continue."
"The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) once remarked to a man who had never kissed any of his ten children, "That shows, you have no mercy and tenderness at all. Those who do not show mercy to others will not have God's mercy shown on them".
"Exchange presents with one another, for they remove ill feelings from the hearts," said the Prophet."
Every aspect of love from Islam that I read seems to put Allah first and the profit Mohammad second before any other love. I guess that is like we say, "love God above all things, and love they neighbor as they self."
Did not know Sinan was married but we learn that he is not only married but even has a family in these first pages however, it sounds like our protagonist, Jahan is not married. We do learn the woman going blind, the kahya knows and loves all that is within the walls of this house and gardens, both human and non-human.
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Been wrestling all day and evening witht the quote you gave us Bellamarie - "...only a few have discovered the Center of the Universe__ where there is no good and no evil, no past and no future, no 'I' and no 'thou', no war and no reason for war, just an endless sea of calm."
I cannot imagine living for all of eternity is a place of calm - essentially with no opposites - the yin yang of war - as John Lennon sang, "Imagine all the people living life in peace." There is no creativity without opposites - creativity is change - creativity is personal growth - creativity touches angst, sadness and despair as much as, elation, desire, exaltation.
When we are creative, we use both our intuitive self and our analytical self, our left and right brain hemispheres at the same time. This not only quiets the mind, it engages it. An endless sea of calm can only assume we are surrounded with only perfection. To me that is really death - death of the spirit, mind and body - all we become is a feather on the Universe's coup stick. Even those who have experienced God felt a sense of fear and exaltation where as, the Center of the Universe as described is void of opposites, the yin and yang of existence.
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Whom do we find at the Sultan's court?
'Lions, monkeys, hyenas, flat-horned stags, foxes, ermines, lynxes, wild goats, wildcats, gazelles, giant turtles, roe deer, ostriches, geese, porcupines, lizards, rabbits, snakes, crocodiles, civets, the leopard, the zebra, the giraffe, the tiger and the elephant.' p5
And their human counterpoints? Certainly one old man dreaming about the Centre of the Universe, and love and learning. Actually, we are told, he's in Agra, India, and the year is 1632, almost a hundred years after he had arrived in Istanbul at the age of 12. Then we are told he was 'past forty', when our story begins, on the night the young princes met their death, the unfortunate brothers of the new Sultan, Murad III. The night the cat growled, frightening everybody.
The old man had come to Istanbul at the age of twelve, about the year 1536, sixteen years into the reign of Sultan the Magnificent. Now Jahan is back in India pondering on love and learning, damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do we want to know his secret? Then we must return to Istanbul where he left it. Let the story begin.
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'When we are creative, we use both our intuitive self and our analytical self....'
You're getting to the heart of things with that, Barb. That's central to our story, isn't it?
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This book is going to keep us on our toes, keeping track of when and where and who. After a brief visit to the timeless center of everything, we are in Agra, 1632, 44 years after Sinan's death, listening to the almost 100 year old Jahan reminiscing.
Then Istanbul, 1574, when Jahan is about forty, told through Jahan's eyes, then Sinan's housekeeper and Sinan. In the next section we'll go backward to the twelve year old Jahan, just arriving in Istanbul.
I think I'd better make a timetable.
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hmm Jonathan hadn't thought of that in reference to the story but yes, I can see it. Lots of threads to follow
And wow thanks - I missed reading the date and putting it together that he was in his very old age writing from India.
Finally looked up Agra, India on the Google Map and as I guessed, it is in the far north of India which would have been in the swath of land that the Muslim's held since the Islamic invasion in the 12th century and so Jahan grew up speaking and knowing the same as in Istanbul. But more I never knew where exactly the Taj Mahal was located and there it is on the banks of the Yamuna river in Agra, India which appears to be the crossroads as if all roads lead to Agra. The streets are not photographed as in most other nations so I cannot travel up and down the streets of Agra to get a feel - there are a few locations photographed and the bazaar area is sad, boarded up and neglected however, this is 400 years after our story.
Jonathan did you read anything specific about this being Jahan's memory story - I'm thinking that is what we have here with the way the story is laid out starting with Jahan in his old age in India - that we are seeing this story as his memory tale - it will be interesting to see if there are any other narrators to the story.
OH dear the idea you brought to our attention Bellamaire really take over my thinking and still cannot get the idea of the the Center of the Universe being and endless sea of calm and now that Jonathan reminds us that we will be using our inner duality of the intuitive and analytical self - back to duality - hmm brings into question the concept of Peace on Earth - sheesh with that in mind I am anxious to see how Elif Shafak continues - sounds to me like the goal is to find the secret that is the Center of the Universe a place of unity and oneness.
Pat do you think that is the secret that the story will be uncovering? Oh you just posted - yes, yes, yes time table - ;) sounds like we are reading the bio of Jahan doesn't it... that is some life span - it will be interesting to uncover why the story includes many years after the death of Sinan.
Callie I bet you are well past this early part of the book - while you were reading was there anything in these first 18 pages that stood out to you? Where there words you ended up having to look up - seems to me kindle has a quick and easy way of clicking on a word and the definition pops up in a small window.
Frybabe is your family visit still going strong - does your family who lived in the path know if their home is safe? Frybabe did you ever read The Night Circus the closest thing I've read to science fiction in recent years - there was something about these first pages in this book that reminded me of The Night Circus - maybe it was the effective way both authors had of setting a mysterious and anxiety provoking mood with words.
youetb hope you were able to get your copy - we would love it if you would pop in -
Finally the sun is out with no more threat of rain - not yet as hot as it will be this afternoon - summer is back...
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Barb, the last they heard, on Friday, is that their street was not flooded. Bud that was Friday. They keep tabs at their utility website to see if the power has been restored yet. As of yesterday it wasn't. At any rate, Wilmington is next to impossible to get in or out of right now, although they found a way to get some tracker trailers in with supplies and such for the stranded. I don't think that route is open to anything else. They hope to start back down on the weekend and find a place to stay closer in.
I did try to read The Night Circus, but didn't care for it. It is more Fantasy than SciFi, I think.
BTW, a Hamam is a Turkish Bath. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqI9VivNKms (1:13)
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Jonathan, I had to giggle, it was as if the Sultan's court was Noah's Ark, it made me think of the line from The Wizard of Oz, "Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!"
So, I guess I feel a bit silly asking, but why are they murdering all those boys, on The Sultan Murad III's orders?
Barb, as best as I am understanding, I felt as if the Centre of the Universe is intended to be Heaven. You really don't need any opposites in Heaven, you will live in calm and harmony. No, 'I' nor 'thou' is needed. We all live together as one, and God provides us with all that we need.
It sure does have the same undertones of the song you mentioned by John Lennon, Imagine. Very perceptive don't you think? Although, I have to say I never was a big John Lennon fan, since he lived his life high on drugs, and, I don't think he did believe in a Heaven. But, I think he may have been on to something with this song.
Let's look at his song in it's entirety:
Imagine
John Lennon, Plastic Ono Band
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world, you
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Songwriters: John Winston Lennon
Imagine lyrics © Downtown Music Publishing, BMG Rights Management
https://www.google.com/search?q=lyrics+to+john+lennon%27s+song+imagine&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&oq=lyrics+to+John+Lennon%27s+song+Imagine&aqs=chrome.0.0.9431j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Interesting question, is this story Jahan's.
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Frybabe, as best as I can see, they are not allowing residents to return in Wilmington as yet. They expect the flood waters to rise even more so by Friday. Your family may want to stay there with you a bit longer. I've been watching the coverage on TV, and the devastation is beyond comprehensible. The goodness of our country, and human nature, always arises to the tasks, in times like these.
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why are they murdering all those boys, on The Sultan Murad III's orders?
They were his father's sons, maybe by other wives, so they were possible rivals to inherit the throne. It seems to have been common to have gotten rid of possible takeovers of power in this way.
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I haven't checked out Barb's links yet, but harem court politics seem to have been a horrid mess of rivalry, scheming, and treachery.
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Barb, I haven't found as much time as I'd hoped to "get into" the book. Not reading on a kindle but haven't found any problem words so far.
Much to the dismay of my English teachers through the years, I have never been able to recognize deeper meanings or references in literature but will thoroughly enjoy reading the comments from those of you who do. Good Brain Exercise for me! ;D
Hope all of those affected by the flood waters are now safe. Quite a few rescue teams from Oklahoma are there to help...including one or two groups who took big trucks outfitted as kitchens so they can prepare and serve hot meals where needed.
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Good Callie - someone has to see the story for what it is - we can get hip deep in analogies and metaphors to other books, thoughts and even current affairs can't we - We can depend on you to remind us of the obvious - great - really great.
Bellamarie the words to Lennon's song are really quite wonderful - at the time their music was so bound up in the culture that unless you were in collage or younger during that time it was not easy sorting it out was it.
And Pat nailed it on the death of siblings when the new Salton has a son of his own - similar to the killing of the young princes in the tower of London.
(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2015/08/21/18/Princes-Tower-Getty_5.jpg)
When you Google royal fratricide there is a nice explanation - evidently there were many wars that were waged for years at a great cost and loss of life between brothers when a father died and to avoid war this was the practice - one example of this practice is offered as Cain and Able along with Romulus and Remus.
Here is a link explaining further the practice of History of Fratricide in the Ottoman Empire (https://www.dailysabah.com/feature/2015/08/07/the-history-of-fratricide-in-the-ottoman-empire--part-1)
Frybabe looking at the bright side you are having a nice long visit although I can imagine everyone is probably on edge - hope all turns out well - and thanks - for the definition - when I was reading I mixed up the Hamam with the Harem because it seems as best I could dope it out from the various youtube videos there are Hamam's in the Harem - I do need to finally look up viziers - they are evidently some lesser position to an apprentice.
Tomorrow we start on the section called Before the Master - I've almost finished reading this section - decided that the last few books worked out better If I glanced over them and found the breaks than read to enjoy and discover using our schedule - that way the questions while reading become apparent since most of our head questions are answered as we read.
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Thank you PatH., for answering my questions about the killing of the young boys. How sad.
Barb after you mentioning the questions, I read through them and realized my answer was also in your questions. Never heard of Fratricide before. Look at me, already learning new things.
Callie, not so much credit to my former English teachers, I have always been curious, and dug deep for more meanings than what is obvious in the books I read. I always saw myself in this metaphor used in a couple of Shakespeare's plays:
"Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back." I can never get enough information. I am a novice writer, and it may be in my DNA. I have one of those Ancestry DNA kits my kids gave to me for my birthday, one day I will send it in and find out if I may have long lost famous writers in my heritage.
I have to tell you when Jahan decided to go beyond that wall to investigate the sounds of what was stirring up all the animals, I was a bit on the edge of my seat. I never expected to find out there were bodies in those sacks. He was lucky Sinan saved him from the Sultan Murad III, giving him an alibi as to why he was there. Interesting how it got him to be chose to build the tomb. I guess you could say, "Right place, at the right time." Although, he was surely in the wrong place, at the wrong time, had Sinan not lied for him, he may have ended up in one of those sacks.
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Today we go further into our story and there are more historical characters.
Shah Humayun is one of the more famous from Northern India - if anyone can find a youtube bio in which we could understand the speaker, please share - so far, the bio's I've found the speaker has such a strong accent I have no clue what he is saying however, did find this fine video about the tomb of Shah Humayun - read along the way there are 100 tombs on the site of the temple and gardens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCLEFJU1p5A
Had to look up the word 'benison' on page 47 and it means blessings.
We are treated to another novel way of story telling - a story within a story as Jahan tells the story of his youth in India and the birth of his elephant - which did prompt me to find out yes, an elephant gestation is usually 95 weeks - wow - however, this special elephant took 3 years to be born - double the amount of time - loved how the elephant needed to be encouraged and how Jahan went about creating a safe welcome -
OK no questions this time - I think there is enough that as we share there will be conversation - have fun in sixteenth century India...
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Did find this youtube giving us photos and explanation of the 15 important locations to visit in India that starts out with the tomb of the Shah Humayun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FENeq65zst8
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Those tombs are amazing!
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The "Before the Master" section, so far, is not holding my interest at all. I expect when we get to the architect and Jahan's apprenticeship I will perk up some.
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I agree with you Frybabe - I'm struggling - but then I never was much for stories from or about India - even the architecture in India is not as interesting - the Taj but that was commissioned almost 100 years later, in the seventeenth century - after seeing the photos of the Mosques and other buildings in the Ottoman Empire the Taj almost looks pure decorative like the top of a wedding cake
One thing I am picking up is the fearful nature that was ascribed to the reason for waiting for the birth of the elephant reminded me of the fear Jahan showed while hiding in the Salton's rooms and as the Salton was described as a man to fear that matched the uncle or step-father - and so that said to me, authority is inclined to bully and to expect their own comfort above all else. The order of things was not at all democratic and those who were to serve an authoritarian figure were fearful and put up with the severe control of the authoritarian figure.
Comparing the Jahan of this section, a young boy, to the Jahan of those first 18 pages, a middle aged man, in what ways did you notice Jahan showed he changed with maturity?
I've a few more pages to read in this section and it is already Thursday - we shall see where others are by tomorrow, Friday and maybe we should push on to the next section, The Master on Monday or at least by Tuesday.
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I have not completed Before the Master section. I am not finding it at all boring or slow. Jahan is just a little boy, commissioned to take care of this elephant. He sure has his work cut out for him. Then to find out that Al-Sultan al-Azam Humayun has lost the throne and worries if Sultan Suleiman will ship the elephant back. Luckily for him and the elephant the palace has never had a "white" elephant, so it will remain.
It's interesting how the author has shown Jahan has no experience in any of the positions he has been given, and luck seems to always be on his side, from the Sinan giving him an alibi for being in the cave with the sacks of dead bodies, to being chosen to accompany this elephant, lies and says the Captain taught him to speak their language, and then being chosen to be an apprentice with no skills.
Is it believable? How happenchance can one person's life be?
Comparing the Jahan of this section, a young boy, to the Jahan of those first 18 pages, a middle aged man, in what ways did you notice Jahan showed he changed with maturity?
I haven't finished this section yet, but it appears Jahan in both sections has a lot to fear. He takes chances that are dangerous and could get him killed, and now the Captain has told him he must steal from the palace.
I will try to finish this section today and come back later. Not sure what my hubby has in store for us, he is like the energizer bunny......go, go, go. No off switch, til he lays his head down on his pillow.
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"Before the Master" get more interesting to me farther on in the section. I just wasn't much interested in the tale he was spinning for her highne ss. Nor was I too happy about him pilfering things for that Captain even thought the guy hasn't shown up in a year, although given the time it took to sail anywhere and back would have been quite lengthy. Which makes me wonder, there was no Suez Canal back then, so where did they off load the elephant? Did they sail around the Cape and into the Mediterranean or deposit their cargo at a port in the Red Sea or Gulf of Persia and then travel overland? Overland to the Mediterranean coast and re-embark on a different ship?
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Interesting thought - you are right Frybabe - no Suez Canal - there are several stories of folks sailing from Italy to the Far East - I wonder now that you brought it up how they did it...
Yes, Bellamarie we are left in mid air with the demands of the captain who has a very different imagination of how easy it would be probably thinking Jahan will be housed in the sumptuous surroundings he expects - since the story opens with scenes during which time Jahan is in his 40s I immediately downgraded the captains threat. Yes, Jahan carries out the wishes of those in authority but as he was protected by Sinan, his master and escaped his step father and tried to protect his mother I expected he would be conscientious about stealing for the captain - so far I've not read any more about the captain. It will be interesting to read just what did happen. With the layers of gardens and rooms between where Jahan lives and the streets I'm wondering how likely it is that the Captain could even gain access but then who knows, some of the others taking care of the animals could be the captains inside man so to speak.
Bellamarie seems to me that whole story of learning the language from the captain is a wily bit of subterfuge - we know that Jahan is from Northern India and for about 400 years that area of India included what is now Pakistan and parts of Afghanistan, that entire swath across the north of India was a Muslim based mostly in Delhi for 320 years (1206–1526)- where as just south of this area was located the Satavahanas who ruled the area since 300 or more years BC and was a Buddhist area. And to the south where trade and literature were always at their peak and also the Pearl industry the religion was Hinduism.
The Satavahanas and the various kingdoms in the south were always protecting themselves form either the Mongol hordes or the Muslims from the north - my guess is rather than create an immediate enemy with the one Indian guy who offered the hand of friendship upon his arrival at the Sultan's menagerie Jahan did not let on he was from northern India but rather said he leaned the language from the Captain. I bet he did learn some words and ways of expressing things, a difference that probably existed between how he spoke compared to the version Jahan was hearing spoken by the Ottomans.
Well here I had all these plans for today and it is raining again - raining hard - never thought I would say this but I am tired of all this rain - I'll take the heat over this - so now I can without guilt get back to the book during the day today and so for that it is a good thing - just need to make another pot of coffee - hmm I wonder if Istanbul in the sixteenth century served Turkish coffee - something else to look up.
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Here is a map by Al Masudi - a famous Arab traveler and historian who lived at the end of the 10th century.
"Al Masudi was a descendent of Abdullah Ibn Masud, a companion of Prophet Muhammed. He was born and educated in Baghdad during the reign of Caliph Al Mu’tadid (892-904 CE).
At the turn of the ninth century, the Islamic world extended from Spain to the borders of India, but it was like a giant banyan tree decaying from within.
The Abbasid Caliphs in Baghdad had lost their hold on vast territories. The Aghlabids in Tripoli (Northern Africa) were independent all but in name. The Fatimids, after establishing themselves in North Africa, were advancing towards Egypt.
Far away Spain enjoyed the zenith of its power under Abdur Rahman III, who had declared his own claim to the Caliphate.
Closer to home, the Shia Buyids ruled in Southern Iraq and for a while occupied Baghdad itself (945CE). The Sassanids had established themselves in Bokhara and competed with the Abbasids in establishing centers of learning and culture in their realm.
The nomadic Turks, (Islamic) facing drought in their Central Asian homelands, were on the move, crossing Amu Darya (major river in Central Asia) in large numbers into Farghana (fertile valley ruled by a Mongol, a Khan descendant now divided between Tajikastan and Uzbekistan) and Northeastern Persia.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Al_Masudi%27s_Map_of_the_World.JPG)
A couple of thoughts - everything we read the Portuguese were the first to create sea lanes all the way to Japan during the sixteenth century - their ships, the Caravels did require deeper water - the voyage around the horn was only known in the mid 13th century and so even Al Masudi would have no knowledge of that journey to show on his map.
Since we know Christoper Columbus was still looking for a quicker and direct route to south Asia and the Indian continent in the very late 15th century and the book talked of at least a 2 month sea voyage it looks like the voyage had to have gone around the horn of Africa and through the length of the Mediterranean - whew - no wonder the elephant was in bad shape upon arrival.
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Aha - just read an excerpt from the Gazetteer of India and the Levant connected India's trading good with Europe - the ports of Basra and the ports on the Red Sea. India traded, textiles, indigo and pepper - the big Abyssinian slave trade to India was from Yeman.
Maybe the journey was partially overland
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aha The Cholas were a dynasty in Southern India from late 800 to mid 1200s - and so the name for the elephant did not come out of the blue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVG542d0Gwg
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The name of the elephant Chota, did not come out of the blue.... Jahan told us he was named this, because it meant "little". Chota was born two sizes smaller than any other baby elephant.
Well, I finished the section and I am just mesmerized with this story. This section has so much in it I don't even know where to begin. I loved the story Jahan told to Princess Mihrimah. Did he embellish to keep her interest? Maybe so, but he sure had me as interested in it, as he did Mihrimah.
So he had an abusive step-father/uncle, who beat his mother to death knowing she was pregnant. How horrible. He decides to stow away in a crate so he can be on the ship with Chota. He is brave for such a young lad, but then to be raised in a house where beatings were plenty, I suppose it would give you courage and strength beyond your young age. I loved how Jahan thought to suckle the mother elephant and then give to Chota to help her survive until she was tall enough to reach her mother's teats. That is a bond that would explain all the reasons Jahan takes dangerous acts to be with Chota.
There are so many tender moments in this section. This author sure has me emotionally involved in the relationship not only between Jahan and Chota, but also with Jahan and the Princess. He has lied once again to try to save the elephant, only to find himself and Chota off to war. Dear me, I can't wait to see where this takes us.
Frybabe, I'm glad you found this section more interesting as you read further.
Barb, I love rain, but I suppose if I had it as much as you have, it wouldn't be so welcoming. We bought a two tier water fountain and placed it in our front yard, right beneath our bedroom window. At night I fall asleep to the sounds of the water, which sounds like it a subtle rain outside. Your rain, book and coffee sounds so inviting. I spent the morning pulling weeds in my flower gardens, and planting a tree my dil gave to us. We are off to a granddaughter's volleyball game now, so no rest for me today. Be back later.
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Me too. Mesmerized that is, by the book and by what you all are making of it.
'...no wonder the elephant was in bad shape upon arrival.'
He had to be coaxed into being born into this world. Now he is about to be taught how to trample the Sufi preacher to death! After being fussed over by the princess. While the reader wonders if the architect of the Taj Mahal consulted Jahan while working on the mausoleum. After all. Jahan had worked with the illustruous Sinan. But now, at the age of twelve, there's larceny in his heart. Steal some of the Sultan's jewels, go home to India and murder his uncle. A very normal twelve-year-old. Should be a lot of action ahead. What did you think of the Sufi's preaching. For that he should die?
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Jonathan, I thought the whole dialogue between Majnun Shaykh and the Grand Mufti was much like Pilate deciding to crucify Jesus. Jesus refused to to say he was the King of the Jews, much like Shaykh refused to admit he was speaking sacrilegiously about God.
Grand Mufti, like Pontius Pilate, did not want to kill Shaykh, he gave him one last chance to save himself.
Pg. 66 "We give you a last chance,' said the Grand Mufti. "If you admit you have been speaking sacrilegiously about God and swear to never say such obscenities again, you might be forgiven. Now tell me, once and forever, do you repent?"
Shaykh, much like Jesus, was not going to appease the accusers, he replies:
"What for?" said Majnun Shaykh, his shoulders straightening as he seemed to make a decision. "I love the Beloved as the Beloved loves me. Why feel remorse for love? Surely there are other things to rue. Avarice. Ruthlessness. Deception. But love . . . ought not be regretted."
pg. 68 In the end, Majnun Shaykh and his nine disciples were executed by hanging.
Interesting how our author felt it necessary to include this into the story. What was her reason for this? To show the elephant was not meant to kill, since the Grand Mufti wanted Chota to be responsible for the execution of these men? A comparison of Pointius Pilate refusing to execute Jesus, so he asks the crowd who he should release Barabbas or Jesus. A bit much, if I say so myself.
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Good Morning to you all. Where is everyone in reading this section "Before the Master"? I see in the schedule we are to begin the next section on Wed. I'm thinking we will be able to go on before that if everyone is in agreement. What are your thoughts Barb? I don't want to hurry us along, there is certainly a lot to take in from this section.
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What a book!! What a storyteller. You're right, Bellamarie...' there is certainly a lot to take in from this section.'
It is in fact a bit overwhelming to find ourselves at the court of Suleiman the Magnificent. In Istanbul. Will we get to see the magnificence? It seems more like a dangerous place to be. Bodies everywhere. Five dead princes. Later there will be nineteen more, we're told. The sufi and nine followers hanged in the public square. The animals disoriented because their cages are kept too clean. Talk about things that go bump in the night? A tiger growls. A woman screams and then falls silent. The death squad of deaf mutes, mutilated themselves, doing their dirty work. As for the rest of the cast, the Viziers, Muftis, the eunuchs, heaven help us...
A surprise on every page. I opened the book at random, and find this:
'One afternoon, immersed in thought, Jahan walked back from the palace school to the menagerie. As he approached his shed, he heard a cough that froze his blood. When he entered, he found Captain Gaveth waiting for him. "Look who's comin? Surprise! I'm back from the deep. I thought I'd better see how my little thief was doing. He must have missed me.'
No, he hasn't, Captain. He's too distracted by other things.
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Bellamarie you comments on the reference to the Bible had me curious - earlier there was the reference to the two mothers and who cared about the child that was destined to be split - well it came together - I think this is Shafak's way of subtlety letting us know that the Port is a Portuguese stronghold - This is the staging area in India that Portugal fought for several times and finally won and is their jump off place to the entire Asian coastline.
Just south of the Port city is another city named Vasco da Gama where today the airport is located. The biggie is the entire area is riddled with Catholic churches going back to the sixteenth century - more Catholic churches by far than temples much less a mosque. So one down how many more to go...:)
Looks like Jonathan you stumbled upon one of the mystery questions - does the Captain return for his... Looking forward to that bit - should be interesting - how does Jahan escape death promised by this Captain if Jahan does not come through with stolen loot.
When the Salton's daughter, Princess Mihrimah suggested to Jahan he should have stretched out his story as the telling of the 1001 Nights of course the question comes to mind, when was it written - found this delightful children's site that does say the tales are a collection of stories that were compiled during what was called The Golden Age, from the 8th to the 12th century
http://www.pookpress.co.uk/project/arabian-nights-one-thousand-and-one-nights/
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Well let's continue with our reading schedule and just move the date up to the next section from Wednesday to Tuesday - that way since most of us are busy over the weekend we have Monday to share whatever buzzes around in her head as a result of reading this section, Before the Master - ahum Two Years Before the Mast ???
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/335397.Two_Years_Before_the_Mast
But look at this folks - there are a couple of sketches showing us life aboard a ship during the sixteenth century
https://www.newworldexploration.com/explorers-tales-blog/life-at-sea-in-the-16th-century
I do not quite get that picture of the sea voyage to Istanbul but then Jahan and Chota are in the hold not in the sailor's quarters and we are seeing all this through the eyes of Jahan.
Fascinating about the book Verranzzano's Horizon along the right side of the page are all the topics that when you click on any one of them all the information is there - not sure if this is the entire book online but there is much information.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/architect/architect_cvr.jpg) |
Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three SultansDiscussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Monday October 1.....................The Dome - to page 256
- Monday October 8.....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Monday October 15...................After the Master
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Helpful Links for reading and watching “People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.” - Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque) (https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/early-europe-and-colonial-americas/ap-art-islamic-world-medieval/a/mosque-edirne)
- A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNgc02-jvE)
- 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpcQEGw3S4)
- Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDWaBmKpfY)
- Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IYqgkrrJ0)
- Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqB57PVWQE)
- Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQtaQYpzTw)
- Janissaries (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHhLXmDox8)
- Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan (https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/06/19/facts-ottoman-janissaries/)
- Mimar Sinan (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YrijHoDmw)
- Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments (http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sinan.htm)
- Elif Safak, author (http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/)
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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So far instance after instance where death is around the corner - it is as if death is chasing every scene - Jahan's story of how he came to the Palace is a relief and yet, lurking in the background there is still this overcast of being caught.
What is this backdrop of death trying to tell us in this story?
Death in a story is usually the symbol for rebirth - Will we be seeing the rebirth of Jahan or the rebirth of Istanbul or of the Salton or of any of the characters we have met so far?
Or maybe the threat of death is letting us know there is powerful hand running the show regardless earthly power. We see the hand of death even in the Palace -
What do you think - do you feel the hand of death lurking in these scenes as you are reading?
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Barb,
Bellamarie you comments on the reference to the Bible had me curious - earlier there was the reference to the two mothers and who cared about the child that was destined to be split - well it came together - I think this is Shafak's way of subtlety letting us know that the Port is a Portuguese stronghold - This is the staging area in India that Portugal fought for several times and finally won and is their jump off place to the entire Asian coastline.
Yes, I was discussing this with my hubby at the breakfast table this morning. I remembered the part where the Captain finds Jahan and Gurab, and says he will decide which should stay to tend to Chota. It immediately made me think of this:
The Judgement of Solomon
1 Kings 3:16–28 recounts that two mothers living in the same house, each the mother of an infant son, came to Solomon. One of the babies had been smothered, and each claimed the remaining boy as her own. Calling for a sword, Solomon declared his judgment: the baby would be cut in two, each woman to receive half. One mother did not contest the ruling, declaring that if she could not have the baby then neither of them could, but the other begged Solomon, "Give the baby to her, just don't kill him!"
The king declared the second woman the true mother, as a mother would even give up her baby if that was necessary to save its life. This judgment became known throughout all of Israel and was considered an example of profound wisdom.
The Captain could see that Jahan cared dearly for Chota, so both boys were left to stay.
Jonathan, So, Captain Gaveth does return for his treasures he expects Jahan to have stolen for him. Oh dear, what ever will happen if he does not have the goods?
Barb, Yes, there is a backdrop of death, Chota could have died when he was birthed due to not being able to reach his mother's milk. Jahan could have been killed had Sinan not saved him with an alibi, sacks full of dead young boys, the sufi and his nine disciples were hanged, and now we have tons of soldiers being killed in the war. But in life there is always death, lurking somewhere. Just this summer, I had four deaths, of either family or friends.
I suspect if there is a semblance for death, it shows how easily life can be taken, due to circumstances either beyond our own means, or other wise. Death in the Bible certainly does not mean the end, but rather a new life, everlasting. It will be interesting to see where this takes us.
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I see a backdrop, of cruelty, fear, and harsh, arbitrary authority on one side, but in contrast, there is in some of the characters a gentleness, kindness and goodness. There is amazing splendor, and terrible poverty, fierce loyalty and scheming, plotting, and jockeying for favor.
It's a rich and colorful tapestry, and I'm sure glad I don't live in it.
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Hi Pat, yes, you nailed it - extremes on both sides of the morality line. We never do get an accurate picture of life today in the middle east but I am wondering if these extremes are still the way of things. Turkey's leadership seems to be less so but I wonder about some of these Islamic Gulf nations. The news from and about the areas seems to be more about showing life to fit our politicized narrative.
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Now I do not know what to think - trying to get a handle on the word delibashlar on page 74 - looked up definition, meaning and translation - this is all I get - part 1 and part 2
Here is part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3_ESU5oZ78
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Wow - evidently "The Battle of Mohács was one of the most consequential battles in Central European history. It was fought on 29 August 1526 near Mohács, Kingdom of Hungary, between the forces of the Kingdom of Hungary, led by Louis II, and those of the Ottoman Empire, led by Suleiman the Magnificent."
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sFtqUVg1qRY/Wq49mnA46uI/AAAAAAAAna4/2_oQC04GenoX5XpbfH3DP6lNPuvbcX2AwCLcBGAs/s1600/mohawk.jpg)
http://epicworldhistory.blogspot.com/2012/05/battle-of-mohacs.html
Again - never heard of it and here it divided Hungary in half - this has to be the basis for the Bosnian war with Muslims against Christians - difference - during current history the Muslims are in the minority - this war is probably what set up this grudge that was buried deep but still alive. Reading further it was a war that strengthened both sides because the Hapsburg Kingdom represented the Christian side and the Hapsburg's, as a result of this war strengthened their position of control over Central Europe.
A nice article with illustrations of elephants in battle through history
http://www.articlesonhistory.com/index/the-war-elephant-through-history
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(https://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/20/19555/janinissari_hevy_inf.png)
Janinissari Helberdiers
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Bizansist_touchup.jpg/1920px-Bizansist_touchup.jpg)
The first bridge on the Horn, built by Byzantine Emperor Justinian the Great, can be seen near the Theodosian Walls at the western end of the city (see upper right) in this rendering of old Constantinople.
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aha the Black Bogdania is what today we call Moldavia - "Moldavia borders on Ukraine in the northeast and on Walachia in the south. In Romania it comprises roughly the modern administrative divisions of Bacău, Galaţi, and Iaşi. Suceava and Iaşi, its historic capitals, and Galaţi, its port on the Danube, are the chief cities. Moldavia, a fertile plain drained by the Siretul, is the granary of Romania."
"Moldavia reached its height under Stephen the Great (1457–1504), who in 1475 routed the Turks, but in 1504 it became tributary to the sultans. Although it was frequently occupied by foreign powers in the continuous wars among the Ottoman Empire, Austria, Transylvania, Poland, and Russia, Moldavia remained under the Ottoman Empire."
Well no wonder this recent diaspora from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan headed from landing in Greece up through these nations - there is a long history of Muslims holding and battling and settling in this area of eastern Europe. And then Turkey sided with Germany during WWI so that was a match - it was not just the success of the German economy that drew those fleeing the Middle East - there was an historical relationship dating back to the early nineteenth century.
Whereas, in the sixteenth Century the area we call Germany was still various principalities - it was not till the eighteenth century that Prussia went to war with Saxony and other areas including Austria creating what we call Germany today. And so during the sixteenth century Hungary was 'the' strong advisory representing Christian Europe rather than Germany.
Interesting - never learned in school about the early adversarial relationship between Muslims and Christians in Europe
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Thanks, Barb, for all the wonderful links to the grand backdrop of history in which our story is set. Overwhelming. What a clash of civilizations. How exciting for someone like Jahan to find himself in such a time and place. But he's hardly aware of it. He longs to meet the girl who will love his winning smile, as his mother would have him believe. He's not much for looks. And when he does get his hands on some of the Sultan's diamonds and emeralds it will set him up for the good life, back in Hindustan. Life in the Palace is too hazardous.
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Glad you enjoyed the links Jonathan - so far we have not read about Jahan and jewels - sounds like maybe in the next section is where we will get into how Jahan handles himself if he is in a position to nab some jewels - looking forward to it.
In the meantime I think we have finished reading this first section along with those first 18 pages that introduced us to the story when Jahan was in his middle years - We moved up discussing the next section to Tuesday - probably we could have moved it up even further but we need to give the others a chance to comment so let's hold off and do The Master starting Tuesday
Getting on with the story is how this book pulls us in. But, so early in our read I hate to rush those who we have not heard from yet. In the meantime the one thing that I'm curious about is looking at how the atmosphere or tone of telling the story is different between those first 18 pages and this section Before The Master
Seems to me there was more description of the night, the grounds and the rooms making innate things like the wind, magical. Where as in this first section Before the Master Jahan tells his story in both India and his experiences on the way to war as a straight-on story of the actions taken.
I do not know about y'all but I have learned tons so far reading this and also watching the various videos related to the story - I do not know about y'alls knowledge or education about this part of the world but mine, except for current news, pretty much ended with the end of the Crusades - in fact I had to look up the difference between Saladin and Suleiman - yep I thought they were one and the same till we started this read.
Had you read anything or learn in your younger years any of this history about Istanbul or these wars between the Ottoman Empire and Christian Empires? How about did you know about the use of elephants in war?
As to these buildings, the only ones I heard about was the Taj in India that I did not even know where it was located in India and the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople mostly because we were taught how it was originally a Christian Church and now a Mosque. I chuckle, we make a fuss over non-partisanship in journalism but never realized the partisanship in education or at least mine. ;)
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Barb,
Had you read anything or learn in your younger years any of this history about Istanbul or these wars between the Ottoman Empire and Christian Empires? How about did you know about the use of elephants in war?
No, I don't ever remember learning anything what so ever on the history about Istanbul. In my years in school all I do remember is American History being taught. No, I had never heard of elephants being used in wars.
Barb, thank you for all the pictures and links, that give us a better picture and understanding of the places and happenings.
PatH., Rich and colorful tapestry indeed, and I sure am glad I don't live in it as well. But it surely is capturing my interest. I would never have read this book, had it not been for our book club discussing.
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Barb, I seem to remember Brunileschis Dome! I will look up the author’s name. Might be in our archives! Looking now!
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I looked at the Archives but couldn’t find that title. Guess I wii Google it.
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Barb, I sent you a link about touring the Dome. I don’t know when we read the book but will get the author’s name in a minute.
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Author was Ross King and the title is “Brunelleschi’s Dome: How a Genius Changed the Building of
??????”
Joan Grimes had visited Florence with one of her student travel classes. I forget who led the discussion but we all enjoyed it.
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I found it:
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/BrunelleschisDome.html (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/BrunelleschisDome.html)
We did it in December/January of 2004, and Jonathan led it. I was new at the time, got the book, but didn't have time to participate. You'll need your most powerful glasses if you want to read that tiny print.
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Yes, Yes so glad you found it Pat - Johnathan's discussion on Brunelleschi's Dome - and welcome Annie - so glad you found us in this discussion -
Interesting - this article on "Building Construction" from the Encyclopedia Britannica exemplifying the problem why we never heard of the buildings in Istanbul or India where dome ceilings were prolific - this article about the developing dome ceiling architecture is focused on Rome as the center of power and the example of Gothic architecture that was either copied or rejected as the dome became the challenge
https://www.britannica.com/technology/building-construction/The-Renaissance
Looks like in the west the first dome was a bell tower in Florence followed by Brunelleschi's Dome which was built in 1420 long before Sinan was building by a bit over 100 years - However, The Hagia Sophia, is a domed monument originally built as a cathedral in Istanbul, during the sixth century A.D.
(https://smhttp-ssl-39255.nexcesscdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Basilica-di-Santa-Maria-del-Fiore-Florence-Italy-845x560.jpg)
Brunelleshchi's Domed Church - Basilica di Santa Maria del Fiore
(https://img.purch.com/h/1400/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5saXZlc2NpZW5jZS5jb20vaW1hZ2VzL2kvMDAwLzAzNy8zMjEvb3JpZ2luYWwvc2h1dHRlcnN0b2NrXzExNzQzMzE5OC5qcGc/MTM2MjE2Mjk4Mw==)
Hagia Sophia began in A.D. 532
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Annie thanks for bringing attention to that discussion - talk about names from the past - Joan Grimes and so many others. What a monument to literature did Ginny and Joan Pearson build - They were the two who started all of this over 20 years ago - there may have been a third but do not remember.
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If ever I had gone to Turkey, the two places I most wanted to see were the Hagia Sophia and Topkapi Palace.
I am sure it has been added on to over the years, but here is a lovely picture of Topkapi now.
http://topkapisarayi.gov.tr/en Topkapi was built before Sinan's time, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of Topkapi was added to or remodeled by him. Maybe we will find out later in the book.
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Thanks for the reminder, Frybabe. About the Topkapi. Do you remember the movie? With Peter Usinov? I have it somewhere in the house. I must look for it.
Barb, I could think of you making a good third in this splendid book club of ours. Ella and Harold led so many discussions. I always regretted not finishing the Brunelleschi discussion. A good read. I was brought a DVD on the Dome just this summer as a souvenir. What a genius. And here we have the young Jahan drawing and sketching and imagining improvements to the Mufti's mansion. And taking note of the jewellry worn by the princess and her mother. This is very promising.
Her mother, Khurrem, is of couse the notorious Roxelana.
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Frybabe, looking at that picture of Topkapi, I could believe it had been added onto more than once. Quite a rabbit warren.
Bellamarie, I don't remember ever learning anything about the Ottoman Empire at the time of the book. Can't remember whether I learned about the Crusades in school or just from all the fiction I read involving them. But we did learn about an earlier use of elephants in war--Hannibal brought them across the alps with his army to attack the Romans.
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Here is another tidbit about Istanbul/Constantinople from more ancient times, mentioned in the link showing the first bridge - Theodosius’ Walls, built during the 5th century to protect Istanbul, after the Goths were successful taking Rome.
https://www.ancient.eu/Theodosian_Walls/
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I'm so surprised to learn elephants were used in wars. They are such large, slower moving animals, compared to horses, I would expect them to be easy targets. I would think it would be a sure bet they would be killed.
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From what I've read Bellamarie the advantage was to panic horses and scare the opposing troops - they also were like towers with these box like contraptions holding several archers shooting down on the opposing army - if the opposing soldiers got too close the elephant would knock them over and trample them to death - however throwing lances took down an elephant - Even if I had seen an elephant before a battle the bellowing charging elephant would be enough to rattle me.
http://www.articlesonhistory.com/index/the-war-elephant-through-history
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Barb thanks for the link. This is so very sad.
The Disadvantages of using War Elephants
While the use of war elephants was often a very beneficial use of domesticated animals in history, it also brought with it risks for an army employing them and when things went wrong, the results could be dire. During a battle, they could easily be wounded by iron spikes that were either in heavy wooden frames or wound through chains. In modern warfare, the equivalent to working with these animals could be said to be the use of armoured vehicles however when they get damaged, they tend to just stop.
These ‘weapons’ from the animal kingdom on the other hand are a different story and when an elephant was injured or lost its driver, then it would often become uncontrollable. They could end up killing or wounding large numbers of men from the ranks they were supposed to be helping, indiscriminately trampling on anyone who got in their way. Sometimes, riders would carry large hammer and chisel type tools in order to kill the animal if it appeared that it might lose control; the chisel would be driven into a point on the back of the head, stopping the elephant in its tracks before it could run amok.
I am off to read the next section so we can begin discussing it tomorrow. Ya'll have a great day!
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How very interesting to read about the use of elephants in war. It has me wondering why Jahan didn't seek glory on the battlefield in a military career, rather than architecture. It looks like he's given an opportunity. Were these milk brothers too timid? To be born not tall enough to reach your mother's teat must have been discouraging. I can't remember, but some early reading must have left me with the dread of being trampled by an elephant.
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(http://ofpof.com/content/xb2oaliyiw/mimar-sinan-in-eserlerinin-bilinmeyen-yonleri_780x459.jpg)
Sinan - The Master
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Not the construction across the Pruth however, another bridge build some years later.
(http://travelingboy.com/tom/mostar04.jpg)
Stari Most |
In 1557, Suleiman the Magnificent realized strategic position of Mostar and ordered construction of a new, stone bridge. Order fell on Mimar Hayruddin, student of chief Ottoman architect.
Mimar Sinan, under the threat of death if construction does not succeeds. Construction lasted for nine years. When the bridge was finished it was the bridge with a widest arch in the world at that time. It had no foundations on which to lean. Just abutments of limestone, which secure bridge to the walls of the cliffs. Construction was supervised by Karagoz Mehmet Bey, Sultan Suleyman's son-in-law. |
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The Story of Seth - 12 minutes
Seth (Shith) was born to Adam and Eve, after Cain killed Abel. God gave the Revelation to Seth after the death of Adam. God revealed 50 booklets to Seth, as narrated by Ibn Hibban that Abu Dharr al-Ghifariyy heard this from Prophet Muhammad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee6qv9oOkyA
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Have you ever destroyed something you made just to remake it so it would be better than the earlier try?
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I keep noticing that Jahan seems to always be in the right place at the right time, or so it appears the wrong place at the wrong time, yet fate steps in and saves him from his near demise. The Captain saved him on the ship, yet has now come back wanting jewels and money. The Sultana wants Chota to perform at the celebration, and things go awry, again fate steps in, and instead of the elephant's unruly behavior being punished, it brought laughter to the Sultan Suleiman by embarrassing The Grand Vizier when he took his turban off of his head, so he is saved from any banishment. Poor Jahan, took an arrow pierced to his shoulder, yet Sinan visits him, and offers to get him in the finest school, so he can be educated to become his apprentice.
So, I ask each of you . . . have you throughout your life, had that one person, who seemed to give you the edge you needed in life, to accomplish something you never even knew you were capable of achieving, like Jahan has with Sinan?
I never went to college, I married a year out of high school, and had my daughter a year later. I was a stay at home Mom, and when my third child was entering Kindergarten I had no idea how I would fill my days. I had worked a few part time jobs along the way, but now I found myself wondering what was next for me. I began volunteering at my children's Catholic elementary school, and the principal Sr. Myra and I became fast friends. I suppose me always saying, yes, to everything she asked me to help her with had a lot to do with us spending much time together. One day she decided she wanted to take me and my friend the other volunteer Mom out to lunch. At this very swanky restaurant, she asked me if I would consider teaching CCD (religion class). I expressed I had no formal college education. She replied, "You don't need a college education, you have what many don't, the true passion for our faith." Well, needless to say, I began teaching first grade CCD the following year, and then a few years later she promoted me to a sacramental grade, eighth grade Confirmation. Along the way our PTO group had been approaching her to begin a computer lab in the school, since technology was coming fast and furious in schools. The mothers were having a hard time convincing Sr. Myra this was necessary, so since they knew I was good friends with her they asked if I would talk with her. I approached her one on one, told her the reasons why computers would benefit the students who were not only struggling in certain subjects, but also those who were advanced in their grade level, and of course those in between. I had a daughter needing more audio help in learning, and a son who was a few grades ahead of his grade level who would seem bored after completing his class work. Sr. Myra listened intently then said, "I am willing to begin this program only if YOU will be the one to help me set it up." Oh dear, I felt like Jahan when Sinan told him he would send him to the finest school to learn all he needed to become an architect. Sr. Myra told me, much like Sinan told Jahan,
pg. 114 "All you need to do to climb up is to work hard."
Work hard I did, all summer learning about computers, and all the different educational programs on those square floppy disks. By the end of summer, our computers were purchased, our small lab was set up and ready to go!
Sixteen years later, when I retired to open my in home day care business, I had one of the finest elementary labs in the Toledo diocese, and city. I had gone to workshops, and learned more about computers and programming, to the point of being asked to teach the high school teacher workshop at our local university.
It took just one woman to see in me, what I did not see in myself.
Like Jahan, I was from a very low income family, my father was killed by a train when I was only three years old, and I had a horrible abusive step father. I had a lot of fear and anger inside me, but my faith and love of God outweighed everything else. I too needed to learn the important lesson Sinan was teaching Jahan when he said:
pg. 114 " but you must let go of the past," "Resentment is a cage, talent is a captured bird. Break the cage, let the bird take off an soar high. Architecture is a mirror that reflects the harmony and balance present in the universe. If you do not foster these qualities in your heart, you cannot build." His cheeks burning, Jahan said, "I don't understand. . . Why do you help me?" "When I was about your age, I was fortunate enough to have a good master. He is long dead, may God have mercy on his soul. The only way I can pay him back is by helping other," Sinan said.
I am still teaching CCD on Wednesday evenings, and I hope I can pay Sr. Myra back, by helping other.
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Interesting thoughts and questions you pose Bellamarie as you reflect on your own life - It appears, like Jahan, others have believed in you more than you believed or even saw valuable qualities in your-self - a gift to be sure.
I like this section so far (I have not finished reading) because the tone reminds me of the way with words Elif Shafak used in those first 18 pages - far more poetic and expressive than Before The Master.
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What a strange tale. And what a wonderful post, Bellamarie. And just like that I realized what's going on, in the story. Sinan sees an architect in the boy. The ship captain wants to make a thief out of him. His stepfather has taught him to hate. The elephant is bringing out strong feelings in the boy. And I get the impression that the Sultana will also see something useful in him. Thanks for the tip.
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I especially like this....
pg. 125 Sinan did not seem to mind these beliefs, though he clearly did not share them. Even so, Jahan would discover that he was superstitious in his own way. He had a talisman that he wore all the time. Two circles, one inside the other, both made of leather, one light, one dark. He fasted for three days before he embarked on a design. Upon finishing it, no matter how great the building, he would leave within it a flaw__a tile placed the wrong side up, an upended stone or a marble-chipped on the edge. He made sure the defect was there, visible to the knowing eye, invisible to the public. Only God was perfect.
Could this be the secret we are searching for, "the Centre of the Universe."
Jonathan, my fear is that the Princess Mihrimah, while smitten with Jahan, and he her, could be his downfall, if he is not careful. Some things are not always attainable. As the famous Virgil wrote, Love conquers all, may be poetic, but we know love can also destroy a person. Hence, Romeo & Juliet.
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'Could this be the secret we are searching for, "the Centre of the Universe." '
Perhaps you're right, Bellamarie. Both architect and apprentice are searching for it. Perhaps it's the architect's Holy Grail, Golden Fleece, or something of that nature. Perhaps we're going for the meaning of Art. Isn't this beginning to look like a 'bildungs roman', the story of Jahan's education, in both love and learning. He's put onto Dante. Then it's a flying visit to Rome and an interview with Michelangelo. Beauty and love come to him in the form of Mihrimah. And yet, sometimes he gets homesick and wants to go back to Hindustan.
The book is growing on me. I don't want it to end. It's fun both to dwell on a page and then to turn it. Those wild Arabian Nights.
Jahan amuses Mihrimah. She's fond of the elephant.
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I have not finished reading this section yet, I am up to pg. 145. They have finally completed the mosque for the Sultan Siueimaniye.
Now as he stood admiring the dome they had built on four giant piers, seeing it for the thousandth time but almost seeing it anew, he felt the same thing. The dome had blended with the firmament above. He fell on his knees, without a care as to who might be watching him. He lay down on the carpet, eyes closed, arms and legs open wide, once again that boy under the birch trees. Alone in the mosque, only a dot in this vast expanse, Jahan could think only of the world as an enormous building site. While the master and the apprentices had been raising this mosque, the universe had been constructing their fate. Never before had he thought of God as an architect. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians and people of myriad faiths and creeds lived under the same invisible dome. For the eye could see, architecture was everywhere.
Hence, with a stolen rosary in his hand and an inexplicable gratitude in his heart, full of conflicts and confusions, under the majestic dome of Suleimaniye Mosque, Jahan stood, a most intelligent animal-tamer an a most perplexed apprentice. Time, too, stopped with him. It seemed to him that in that instant he had unknowingly, come a step closer to the centre of the universe.
Jonathan, Perhaps it's the architect's Holy Grail, Golden Fleece, or something of that nature.
Holy Grail indeed! You got me thinking..... The Holy Grail has always been sought after, we have movies, legends, books, etc., all about possessing The Holy Grail. Why? What is it they feel they will possess once this is in their possession? Do they see it as a special power? Do they think since it was the chalice that held Jesus' blood at the Last Supper it will make them more holy? Do they think owning it, is a feat since it represents a part of Jesus the Son of God?
The Holy Grail is traditionally thought to be the cup that Jesus Christ drank from at the Last Supper and that Joseph of Arimathea used to collect Jesus's blood at his crucifixion. From ancient legends to contemporary movies, the Holy Grail has been an object of mystery and fascination for centuries.
(https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/holygrail.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=418&h=210&crop=1)
I see this book more about a journey of faith, family, friendship, fortune and future. Jahan is learning not only to become an apprentice in architecture, but he is learning to become a believer in God, and how reaching the center of the universe, he will finally have learned the true meaning of life. Ultimately, for me personally, I feel it's reaching Heaven, paradise, the ultimate centre of the universe.
I especially love how Sinan was willing to take all blame if anything went wrong building the mosque, and was going to give all rewards to those who helped build it, when it was finished and a success. He had faith in God that it would all turn out, it was easy to make them this promise.
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I was traveling yesterday, and packing the day before, so have only read half of the current section.
Bellamarie, so the book has a special relevance for you, and your comments clarified the role of a mentor in my mind. He sees the qualities in his protegee, maybe not recognized or believed in by the p himself, and helps the p to recognize and believe in them, then gives the p the tools to make the most of these qualities.
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MY oh my great posts - look I need the day - did something really dumb this morning - mosquitoes are so bad and here they are dangerous - so I set off one of those canned bombs that kills bugs and whatever in the world when I pressed the tab it shot right up on my face and arms - immediately took shower but too late - I am so allergic to any kind of bug killer and so I've been on everything in my emergency kit - I should be fine by this evening or tonight - these things usually only last 8 hours.
Fabulous thoughts and posts - be back later - another from the first exchange with Bellamarie and Jonathan - reminds me the often argued, Fate versus controlling your Destiny.
So glad the center of the universe is part of this section of the book - OK till later...
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/architect/architect_cvr.jpg) |
Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three SultansDiscussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256
- Tuesday October 9...................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Tuesday October 16.................After the Master
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Helpful Links for reading and watching “People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.” - Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque) (https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/early-europe-and-colonial-americas/ap-art-islamic-world-medieval/a/mosque-edirne)
- A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNgc02-jvE)
- 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpcQEGw3S4)
- Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDWaBmKpfY)
- Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IYqgkrrJ0)
- Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqB57PVWQE)
- Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQtaQYpzTw)
- Janissaries (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHhLXmDox8)
- Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan (https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/06/19/facts-ottoman-janissaries/)
- Mimar Sinan (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YrijHoDmw)
- Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments (http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sinan.htm)
- Elif Safak, author (http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/)
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Good grief, Barb, take care of yourself and recover.
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Oh Barb, I hope you are okay, how awful.
Please know I am in no way arguing any point, especially with my wise, insightful, and intelligent friend Jonathan. There are so many layers to this story, and lots of room for many different views. But I am in complete alignment with Jonathan. I hope it did not come over differently.
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Jonathan,
Jahan amuses Mihrimah. She's fond of the elephant.
Aha! I think you may be right. He thinks she is coming for him, you are on point, she is fond of the elephant.
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pg. 152 Over the years Jahan would visit it on many occasions, but nothing would give him such pleasure as being in Simeons's house, surrounded by the smells of ink, leather and baking bread.
Aw.... sounds wonderful to me!
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Sorta back with the living today - thanks for yall's concern - I've been through this cycle so many times so that it is a pain in the neck - I end up loosing 2 days - one practically comatose with all the meds to both stop the reaction and see me through the pain and then the next day to get over the cure day between being so tired and full of gas - but I still cannot see paying someone to set off some insecticide bombs or whatever they are called. And so onward.
Yes, Bellamarie - You picked up on such a wonderful message in this book - a journey of faith, family, friendship, fortune and future - I too see many ways that the story is told that hits something within us that is a glorification to God or even as simply as a gratification for the skills, faith, family and friends we are blessed with and then the opportunities to practice and put our skills to use.
I am looking at my own home in a different light - yes, life, caring, loving, and practicing skills that affect the future all took place inside this home that I remember when it was built. The entire design was not mine however, I did make big changes to the original plan for the kitchen and the bathrooms - in fact the builder used some of my changes in the homes he later built - to this day the changes I made, especially to the kitchen, serves me well and is where I have created many meals that brought together many folks - with so much disappointment in my life and dealing with the aftermath it is easy to forget the good that happened because of some innate desire to think how a home can bring better usable places and then learn the measurements for the space needed and learn how to draw it out, learning the thickness of walls and where the electric wiring goes and how the heat duct gets to a room and where the plumbing is needed and how it will get there in a straight line with the least number of bends.
This story is bringing back some of that experience that when my daughter and her husband built their home they did design it from scratch and I helped her - I sat at the kitchen table with my large wooden board and drew it out asking her where she envisioned every aspect of her home. She and Gary did have a few main ideas that were the basis for their home. Their home is more playful and with two active boys they included a regulation half basketball court that over they years became a place, especially in winter, where many of the children in their small town came and played for a few hours after school or rainy Saturday afternoons and many a New Year's party ended up with half the guests playing basketball.
I see our individual gifts being explored, practiced and shared within a home that to me is as much of a blessing showing adoration for God as we show with ceremony in a church, temple, mosque. I'm remembering while attending grade and high school we drew a quick cross on the top of every paper we wrote and realize we wake up in the morning with a quick prayer of thanksgiving - in today's environment where the public mention of religion is politicized it is easy to forget the wonderment we establish when we see God's hand in our man made and natural environment.
I've seen Zoroastrians in several stories and did a superficial job of learning who they were and what they believed but I think the time is now to really find out - as I understand it the Zoroastrian's beliefs are incorporated in the Christian beliefs - I do not know enough about their practices and ceremonies or how they organized themselves much less do I know more than a superficial view of their beliefs - please if you know anything about the Zoroastrians would you share...
Jonathan you can kick off so many insightful aspects of this story in just a few words - fabulous - and yes, Jahan amuses Mihrimah however, it appears his fascination with Mihrimah goes deeper and here he is with the anxiety of battle foremost the night before and a camp follower is the cause for his sexual awakening that he has not sorted out how to handle.
Pat yes, thanks, the words to describe the relationship between Jahan and Sinan - Jahan is the protegee of Sinan - we do not often see this kind of relationship as we did when skills were learned under the tutelage of an experienced craftsman do we.
Wow miracle of miracles - out of the blue my computer just shut down - seems to have come from the service - took me forever to get it back and lo and behold my post had not disappeared but was just as I left it - wow - and here I was sure it was a lost cause - wow...
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Barb,
please if you know anything about the Zoroastrians would you share...
When I was teaching my CCD class last night this word came up in our chapter, then I read it in our book. So, since I did not have the least bit of knowledge about this belief, I decided to do a Google search. Here is a link to answer the basic questions to learn about it.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Zoroastrianism
Barb, I could only dream of having the chance to design my own home. I want so badly to add french glass sliding doors in my eating area, so I can have a better view of my backyard from my kitchen table. Since my hubby and I retired we have become avid bird watchers, and along with my gardening I just want to look out and see my entire backyard. Hopefully next Spring. More plumbing problems took up my last two days. This time it was the inside pipes. Had to have new lines, shut off valves, kitchen sick and faucet done. I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone. Glad you are feeling better.
I hope to finish the last pages of this section tomorrow. More then.
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I just finished this section and to summarize it, Jahan and Davud has been sent to Rome to study the San Pietro and to learn more about other artist's work. They get a chance meeting with Michelangelo, he gives them a letter to bring to Sinan, they get robbed and come back with nothing, all their sketches, money, and the letter have been stolen from them. The Princess has been married off to someone she is not happy with, and Chota is happy he was able to mate with the elephant the gypsies owned.
pg. 173 They would never get to know what I1 Divino had written to their master. The correspondence between Chief Architect of Rome and the Chief Royal Architect of Istanbul was severed, and not for the first time. The apprentices arrived at the house of Sinan with nothing to offer him. It was as though nothing remained from their long journey, except the ache in their limbs and the memories of San Pietro, already withering away.
So, who stole their things in Rome? Davud and Jahan have been forewarned, Sinan like all have enemies. Jahan remembers the problems that have been happening at their site when building the mosque. What will become of the Princess, now that she sees Chota is growing up and not so interested in him any longer? Jahan is dealing with his aching heart for her, and fears she will no longer come to visit.
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Wow - this is a story - thanks for the summery Bellamaire - great - I smiled - the issue between east and west as a metaphor is captured in the pilfering from the east while the east essentially genuflects to the artistic and mechanical genus of the west.
So many bits of wisdom sprinkled along the way - a few early in the chapter that impressed or actually perplexed me...
"Sometimes, for the soul to thrive, the heart needs to be broken" I dwelt on that for a few days - I could see it happening - we've all experienced heartache but, what is a soul thriving - what does a soul do or provide, that is separate from the heart - assuming the heart is our good feelings - our positive emotions - is it our good actions or does our good feelings prompt our good actions - they say, think and it will happen - so do we think our feelings - is it, thought affects feelings that affect actions and therefore our heart is from our thoughts - but then what is the soul and where does our soul show itself - it appears the soul has no feelings - does it cause us to act? If our soul is immortal, is that our center, as in the center of the universe? Is the soul are 'north' star but then how do we account for good and bad behavior or does that have nothing to do with our soul? Is it our thinking or our feelings or our heart that prompts out good and bad behavior?
Thought I had all this figured out but when the soul is affected by what happens to the heart - loads of new questions emerge - if the heart needs to be broken for the soul to thrive does that mean the soul does not thrive when the heart is grateful or experiences wonderment, joy or success?
With this later quote in the book "When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy." Does that mean that Joy allows a soul to shrivel or halt, the opposite of thrive?
What was the benefit of carving an elephant that caused such carnage during war with his tusks and instead of carving with sharp, lethal tusks, the carving is finished with two flowers in its place. Flowers are blissful and festive, the things of joy and yet, the soul thrives with a broken heart that would be carving what represents melancholy, misery, sadness. Does this caring act to uplift someone really say, we try to uplift others temporary being, the heart, at the expense of their soul? If so that would fall in line with the destroying of your work to gain mastery. Mastery being more valuable than the joy of completion. Questions questions questions....
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There are lots of different themes running through this story, with architect being the main backdrop. Building, whether it be building relationships, mosques, reputations, skills, faith, self confidence, self awareness, self worth, building trust, knowing who your enemies are, building talents etc., etc.
I think of how Chota was born half the size as normal size elephants, and yet the majestic accomplishments he has made in his life. Being chosen to be the Sultan's elephant, chosen to fight in the war, chosen to be the entertainment of royal celebration, the Princess has found him to be a focus and fondness of her days, and how he is used to help build bridges, and buildings that will last a lifetime. Then you have Jahan, who is from a family of little wealth, affection, or opportunities, yet look how far he has come. To stand in the presence of the great Michelangelo himself. He has earned the trust of many.
I'm not so sure this book was written for the main interest of architecture, as more it is written with a message of how great a person can become if you are able to find your talents in life, your balance in life, your true faith in life, coming to the centre of the universe in doing so. It sure has made me think about a lot of things daily. Being a teacher of religion to third grade students, I find myself reflecting on how faith is built. Like I was discussing with my students this past week on how as a baby your parents are the first to influence you and choose your religion for you, then you gain knowledge through your years of education which brings you to deciding what faith you will follow as an adult when you are able to choose for yourself. It is the mere foundation, much like the foundation of these famous buildings and mosques, that will determine whether you will stand the test of time.
Who would have thought when we chose, and began this particular book about famous mosques in Istanbul, we would be seeing a much more important subject to consider. Not me for sure.
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Yes, building - then I think where Jahan questions if tearing down what was built is a waste and I see all the wasted humans who were torn down or were never built up - like Jahan, I do not understand as I see humanity, whose sweat, faith and work is in ruins - yes, I agree and see the wonders Bellamarie of all those whose lives are changed in ways they never dreamed - and yes, that is the American dream however, I also see many whose lives have been ruined through no fault of their own - it is as if there is a bigger hand controlling their fate just as, the unexpected hand of fate can offer opportunities - so far, it appears to be like throwing dice how the hand of fate will build or tear down what we, in our expectation and faith in working hard, will achieve, how our good effort affects our destiny. I'd like to think the greater hand in our fate is a God but I am seeing too many being hurt by the power and control of money. To just condemn that miss-use of power does not alter the experience of those who are torn down by trusting the written and un-written rules.
As Chota achieves glory it is sad to realize the adoration by the crowds was based on his ability to kill without mercy - I understand nations are created, built and maintained by war - Libya being the only exception in all of history - and to win we need to support those who fight which does mean accepting brutality to other's - this is confusing and beyond me today...
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What wonderful posts. I'm just fascinated by what we're finding in this unusual story. An adventure in ideas and human perplexities. I've fallen behind in my reading somewhat, with being out and about and just busy with a lot of things. Your provocative posts remind me how much I'm missing.
Most amazing of all is the splendid architcture in the writer's narrative style. With no centre at all. She's all over the place with this one. That certainly adds to its fascination.
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Wondeful, Barb, for coming through that mishap with the bomb.
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ah yes Jonathan, the bombs ;) :D
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(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1021/8371/products/YGP4_012.jpg?v=1493331166)
"Caïques glided along the waters of the Golden Horn"
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A Thirsty Man Near the River - by Rumi (1207 - 1273)
Silent River
Once there was a huge wall near a silent river that flew rapidly through the valleys. Then a thirsty man appeared behind the wall. But the wall was so huge that he could have neither managed to climb the wall nor torn it down. Poor man was fluttering like a fish that was already out of the water. He should have reached the water to quench his thirst but that was impossible because of the wall.
Suddenly he broke apart a piece of stone from the wall and threw it to the river over the huge wall. The stone piece splashed the water and made a sound that can be heard from anywhere. The river was so silent that when he heard the water splash, it was more than an ordinary sound. It sounds like a song or like a poem to man. Then the man broke apart more pieces from the wall and started to throw them through the river to listen this lovely song.
Days later, while the man kept throwing stone pieces through the river, suddenly river started to talk and said, “Oh poor man, why do you throw stones to me although you know that you can not reach my water?“
Then the man said to the river, “Oh generous river, i know that i can not reach you but this give me hope if i throw some stones to your water. Because with every stone i broke apart, i know that the wall is getting lower. And more importantly, your sound of water that spreading all over the nature gives live to human beings. Nature comes alive and celebrates the spring after hearing your sound of water. Now i am asking to you, why do not i throw more stones ?“
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Sugar Sculpture
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/58/1b/b1/581bb1a242dad57df3af5c27fe231409.jpg)
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hahaha this is cute and wild and funny - a cartoon about Sherbet and Istanbul
https://www.weloveist.com/ottoman-sherbet
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well am I glad I looked this up -
Cadger - v. "to beg" (1812), "to get by begging" (1848), cadger "itinerant dealer with a pack-horse," mid-15c., which is perhaps from early 14c. cadge "to fasten, to tie".
According to the book, The Jews of the Ottoman Empire, there were many Jewish artisans in the Ottoman cities that included; Iron forgers, smiths, wheelwrights, coach builders, sail makers, rope makers, expert sailors and fishermen, painters, shoemakers, hide processors, workers of precious metals, locksmiths, masons and lime burners.
Lime kilns date back as far as 10,000 B.C. in Galilee, Israel, where the oldest known kiln for burning limestone was discovered in the Ha Yonim cave.
Original limestone were crumbles of calcium oxide (CaO ), known as “quick lime. While calcium oxide could be used to spread as a fertilizer, more often it was carefully combined with water to create calcium hydroxide (CaOH2) or “hydrated lime.”
This end product of the lime-burning process had three major uses. It could be applied to “sweeten” soils by raising the pH value to lower acidity, which made nutrients easier to absorb. It could also be used to make whitewash, which was used as a protective coating. Perhaps most frequently, though, the calcium hydroxide was used to make a slurry that could be used as a mortar with the addition of animal hair as a binder, or to make concrete.
Hadith - a collection of traditions containing sayings of the prophet Muhammad that, with accounts of his daily practice (the Sunna), constitute the major source of guidance for Muslims apart from the Koran.
bagnios a brothel.
Kadi (in Islamic countries) a judge.
Demotika under Ottoman rule—was probably captured by the Ottoman commander Hadji Ilbeg. It soon became the seat of the Ottoman court under Murad I, until the conquest of nearby Adrianople a few years later.
It nevertheless remained a "favorite resort of early Ottoman rulers" due to its rich hunting grounds even after the capital moved to Adrianople and Constantinople.
As such the city was rebuilt, with the Byzantine walls repaired and a royal palace constructed, and beautified, an effect still evident in 1443, when the French traveler Bertrandon de la Broquiere visited it.
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Serai Gate - youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrLi3VPwzPg
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"Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine."
Which begs the question, what is the reason, the purpose of art.
"Art is everything that is made by the human hand and has something in common with creativity and imagination. That could be a painting, a piece of music, a book, a building but also just a piece of furniture. If a piece of art is pure beauty depends on the eye of the beholder... Art is an expression of the human experience.
The goal of art is not to simplify and beautify everything. The goal of art is not to entertain us. The real goal of art is to show us the way to another world. To the world which helps us to purify our souls. As Mateo Arias once said: “Art is an expression of the eternal. It comes from a different place.“
"Literature is an art form - as we read we are artists using our analytical and critical thinking, the art of the logical and illogical, the art of reasoning, but always, an art."
Therefore, if we apply Sinan's wisdom we can ask ourselves if, as we read and discuss have we made a covenant with the divine. Had we thought reading literature is as much an artistic endeavor as writing or painting, dancing or gardening so that we can enter and show another world?
Reading further, if Architecture is a conversation with God and reading literature is an art form then, we too are having a conversation with God as we analyze, critically think, use our power of reasoning - we too are touching the center of the Universe.
Whoa - gives a different picture to reading - makes reading a valuable activity rather than something we downgrade as whiling away time on a rainy afternoon.
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Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq:The Turkish Letters, 1555-1562
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/1555busbecq.asp
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(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/8b/89/708b892d064467d0fa6741f840602fbe.jpg)
Süleymaniye Mosque - Melchior Lorichs
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(https://travelatelier.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/chameleon-patterned-iznik-tiles.jpg)
Iznick Tiles
The History of Iznik Tiles in Turkey in 1-minute
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/turkey/articles/the-history-of-iznik-tiles-in-turkey-in-1-minute/
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| (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Shah_Tahmasp.jpg/330px-Shah_Tahmasp.jpg) | Shah Tahmasp I was an influential Shah of Iran,
who enjoyed the longest reign of
any member of the Safavid dynasty.
He was the son and successor of Ismail I.
He came to the throne aged ten in 1524 and
came under the control of the Qizilbash (Shi'i militant group)
who formed the backbone of the Safavid Empire.
The Safavid dynasty was one of the most
significant ruling dynasties of Iran,
often considered the beginning of modern Iranian history.
The Safavid shahs ruled over one of
the Gunpowder Empires (see link in heading) |
History of Iran: Safavid Empirehttp://www.iranchamber.com/history/safavids/safavids.php
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Ney flute concert
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba53hl1m2DE
Molla Lütfi
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=tr&u=http://www.gelisenbeyin.net/molla-lutfi.html&prev=search
The Book of the Knight Zifar: A Translation of El Libro del Cavallero Zifar (Studies In Romance Languages)
https://www.amazon.com/Book-Knight-Zifar-Translation-Cavallero/dp/0813154189
De Architecturea by Vitruvius
https://www.amazon.com/Vitruvius-Ten-Books-Architecture-Bks/dp/0486206459/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538277479&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=De+Architecturea+by+Vitruvius
Regole Generali di Architettura Sebastiano Serlio
https://www.amazon.com/Architettura-Sebastiano-Bolognese-Gliedifici-Corinthio/dp/0483533629/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538277293&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywords=regole+generali+di++sebastiano+serlio+english+edition
Wow quite a tome - evidently our Jahan also thinks it is a good read for himself - only available for a kindle
The Guide for the perplexed by Ibn Maimon[/i]
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Perplexed-Moses-ben-Maimon-ebook/dp/B005SHX502/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1538277849&sr=1-1-fkmr0&keywords=The+Guide+for+the+perplexed+Ibn+Maimon
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(https://idsb.tmgrup.com.tr/2016/04/18/HaberDetay/1460920908433.jpg)
A bedestan is a covered market usually for haberdashery and craftsmanship, built in Ottoman Empire and their design is based on the design of the mosques. A bedestan, in the most basic definition, is the central building of the commercial part of the town.
A bedestan: The Ottoman precursor to the safety deposit box
https://www.dailysabah.com/feature/2016/04/18/bedesten-the-ottoman-precursor-to-the-safety-deposit-box
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Petersdom_von_Engelsburg_gesehen.jpg/800px-Petersdom_von_Engelsburg_gesehen.jpg)
Basilica Information
http://stpetersbasilica.info/
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I was no longer going to share on these pages every quote that said something to me but this one I cannot pass
Greed puts gratitude to sleep.
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Can't resist these photographs and your thoughts about The Architect's Apprentice by Elif Shafak. The cover of the book is indeed very striking. So I am slowly reading comments and links. I am listening and watching one of the links on YouTube. Boy, it's fascinating. I've not finished it yet. Thanks for allowing me to lurk or do whatever it is I'm doing. Good morning, Happy Sunday.
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Morning Hats, et.al. I also am reduced to lurking; the book is back a t the library. Actually I am finding the posts more interesting than the book, what I read of it. I have been watching an old (1994) series called Ancient Warriors. The next episode up is on on war elephants. i watch on on the Janissaries early this week.
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Hi, Hats, it's good to know you're with us. If I'm not careful, I'll join the honorable lurkers, as I'm way behind, racing Jonathan for farthest back, trying to avoid the death spiral one gets into where it's never possible to catch up, and the things you think of to say are already ancient history so you don't say them.
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will another day help Pat - we can postpone starting the next section till at least Tuesday if you think that would help - In fact yes, why don't we do that - I will make the change now - you may not be completely caught up but a bit further anyhow - some are barreling ahead so it is a bit difficult to gauage and Frybabe has already returned the book and so everyone is all over the place.
OK we postpone the next section till Tuesday and use Tuesday as our change over day.
So glad to know you are also reading along Hats - quite a tale that hits all sorts of truths and individual buttons.
Hit me as I was getting to bed last night - this book is reminding me of the Harry Potter books - she too used real personalities for some of her characters and where the Harry Potter story was more fantasy and this is not there is something about how the story is organized and told that reminds me of how J. K. Rowling wrote the Harry Potter books.
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Thanks, Barb. It will help.
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Ok just changed this week to Tuesday and left the others - this coming section we have broken into two parts - to recap, the first few days we did 18 pages and then the next week we read 59 pages and then last week's section was a whopping 98 pages
This coming week, that will start on Tuesday, we are reading 79 pages - less than this week but more than the first section - now if y'all would like even more time please let us know - we are not in a race and to finish up mid October is fine but if we need more time, so we schedule through towards the end of October.
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Hats, Frybabe, Jonathan, and PatH., it is nice to see you posting, lurking, or what ever you choose to do. I'm sorry to hear you have fallen behind in the reading sections. I always look forward to your insightful post.
Barb, Tuesday works for me. I don't mind changing the discussion schedule to help others catch up. I too have been busy with my granchildren's sports, soccer, volleyball and cross country, five days out of my week, not to mention other things going on.
It's been a pretty surprising book so far for me. The protagonist seems to be learning life lessons as he enters his teen/adult life. Jahan, like Chota, are coming of age, and puberty is difficult for both. Poor Chota had no female elephant to ease his hormonal woes, and Jahan has been approached by an adult male causing him fear. The female lady of the night (I will refer to in kind) comes into their tent and has open sex with an older man, while they ridicule and laugh at Jahan's innocence. The Princess has married, leaving Jahan with is fantasies rolling around in his head. Chota was lucky to finally have a female elephant brought to him to relieve his angry nature. Oh how difficult it is, when hormones take over animal and human.
Barb, thank you for all the pics, links etc. I've never read, nor watched Harry Potter, so I have no idea what the comparisons are you speak of, with this book and Harry Potter.
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Bellamaire - glad you are OK with our slowing down the discussion - your posts have been full of personal examination and wisdom - this book seems to touch all sorts of inner truths doesn't it.
I loved when you shared this --- "The Holy Grail is traditionally thought to be the cup that Jesus Christ drank from at the Last Supper and that Joseph of Arimathea used to collect Jesus's blood at his crucifixion. From ancient legends to contemporary movies, the Holy Grail has been an object of mystery and fascination for centuries."
That bit kicked off for me another viewpoint reading the book - thanks.
I loved Jahan's observation when he says there are two kinds of Temples built - those that reach out t the sky and those that wish to bring the sky closer to the ground - I'm thinking that is like saying a micro and a macro view of the universe and then I think that maybe this search for the Holy Grail that is the subject of so many stories is like the macro search for the center of our universe where some of us are content with a micro search from our own heart and soul.
(Still have not got the way the heart affects the soul and what the function of either are to behavior - ah so - maybe the author has more wisdom or maybe one of these real live characters will say something that helps me clear that up - hope springs eternal ;) )
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'A pretty surprising book.' You are so right on that, Bellamarie. And Barb makes the suggestion that it might be helpful to see the book as an Ottoman, Renaissance Harry Potter. Yes indeed.
Barb, I think you'll find an answer of sorts regarding behavior at the very end of the next section. Yes, I'm caught up in my reading and liking the book more all the time. Along with your wonderful links this is turning into an extravagant read. Not at all what I anticipated...much, much more. We may never get to the centre, but what a galactic, down to earth ride.
Nice to hear from you, hats.
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Jonathan, Glad to hear you have caught up.
Barb, Yes, I like your macro/micro outlook on finding the/our centre of the universe. I'm still giving the heart and soul affecting behavior some thought. I'm sure it will come to us as we read along.
This certainly is not your average book on architecture, that's for sure.
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October 1st - this year is just moving along - now we are close to holiday season - cannot get myself going about Halloween this year - thinking on it Halloween is really just All Soul's day that is a Christian holy day - I wonder if there are any celebrations that accompany holy days in 15th century Istanbul.
Tip - if you have not looked at the cute children's cartoon about Sherbet - the glories of eating or drinking Sherbet will be included in the next section that we start to discuss tomorrow -
Here is a great link about Sherbet still as popular today in Turkey - which evidently is a drink where as we think of Sherbet in a frozen desert form.
https://www.dailysabah.com/food/2016/07/11/traditional-turkish-sherbets-to-cool-you-down-this-summer
Who would have guessed - evidently Sherbet in Turkey is very different than the Sherbet we buy from the frozen food cases.
Turkish Sherbet is more like a fruit juice.
(https://www.sbs.com.au/food/sites/sbs.com.au.food/files/styles/full/public/neverending-sherbert.jpg?itok=p74B3wN3&mtime=1471315629)
Tükenmez is a sustainable home version of the kind of sherbet you used to buy in the street from hawkers with tanks on their backs – still seen occasionally in some parts of eastern Turkey. The street sherbets were often made with tamarind or liquorice root, while the home version uses medlars.
To get fermentation started, you need to keep the chickpeas in the water for at least five days. The liquid will continue to ferment gently once the chickpeas are removed, and you can keep refreshing the drink with water for three months. If it starts to taste like vinegar, use it as vinegar and make another batch.
Looks like medlars is a fruit that tastes like cinnamon applesauce.
(https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvdGhpbmdfaW1hZ2VzL2Y2NTk3NGQwMjc3ZThmNzFlZV8zMDI2NDU0MjkzXzYxMzJkNDZiNDlfYi5qcGciXSxbInAiLCJ0aHVtYiIsIjEyMDB4PiJdLFsicCIsImNvbnZlcnQiLCItcXVhbGl0eSA4MSAtYXV0by1vcmllbnQiXV0/3026454293_6132d46b49_b.jpg)
Good grief here is an article about Sherbet called Faloodeh that is made with cooked vermicelli and the explanation says that "One of the world’s earliest known frozen desserts, this 2,500-year-old treat is still a summertime favorite in Iran today." And here we go the architects/engineers and builders made all this possible "Persian engineers developed a type of massive, domed ice house called a yakhchal."
The Ice pit used in ancient times where foods were kept cold in the desert
(https://assets.atlasobscura.com/media/W1siZiIsInVwbG9hZHMvdGhpbmdfaW1hZ2VzLzA1NTMwZDdlMjIyYWQ3ZDE1Zl9ZYWtoLWNoYWxfaW5fWWF6ZF9wcm92aW5jZV8tX0lyYW4uanBnIl0sWyJwIiwiY29udmVydCIsIi1xdWFsaXR5IDgxIC1hdXRvLW9yaWVudCJdLFsicCIsInRodW1iIiwiMTE2MHgxMTYwIyJdXQ/Yakh-chal_in_Yazd_province_-_Iran.jpg)
https://www.atlasobscura.com/foods/faloodeh-sorbet-noodles
This is a quick minute and a half youtube showing n Ottoman recipe how to make a quick un-fermented peach sherbet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYY38THkTRU
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/architect/architect_cvr.jpg) |
Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three SultansDiscussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256
- Tuesday October 9...................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Tuesday October 16.................After the Master
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Helpful Links for reading and watching “People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.” - Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque) (https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/early-europe-and-colonial-americas/ap-art-islamic-world-medieval/a/mosque-edirne)
- A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNgc02-jvE)
- 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpcQEGw3S4)
- Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDWaBmKpfY)
- Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IYqgkrrJ0)
- Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqB57PVWQE)
- Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQtaQYpzTw)
- Janissaries (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHhLXmDox8)
- Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan (https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/06/19/facts-ottoman-janissaries/)
- Mimar Sinan (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YrijHoDmw)
- Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments (http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sinan.htm)
- Elif Safak, author (http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/)
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Janissary with Lion
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/73/db/de/73dbded6274a294db41262ce8e3fe098.jpg) | Grand Vizir
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d1/41/e0/d141e0ce0e02ff8aeb7c03bbe171cd3b.jpg) |
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So the great Suleimaniye Mosque is finished, and Jahan goes in, troubled and anxious. He looks up, and the light, and a childhood memory, producce an epiphany, in which he feels something of the structure and purpose of things, and draws a little closer to the center of the universe.
I felt a tiny echo of this last week, when I looked at the dome of the Mosque of Selim II, Edirne, in Barb's link. No childhood memories, but a feeling if the wonderful lightness of the structure, and that it was somehow very important and significant. Those domes were constructed with purpose.
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Pat It must feel awe inspiring to be in one of these mosques or church in Rome with a domed ceiling - yes, an epiphany, perfect - my imagination is sensing the wonder and how small you must feel in one of these buildings with such a huge dome overhead.
I remember reading years ago how people thought the sky was a dome that when it rained the dome leaked and so the fear of rain that it may rip open the sky/dome and all would drown - I wonder when that type of thinking changed - I'm just wondering if the early domed ceiling in the Hagia Sophia was constructed with that kind of thinking about the universe - surely by the time Sinan was building no longer did they see the sky as a dome. Although, Galileo had a rough time and he was born in Rome mid sixteenth century.
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October 1st!!!! Every year when September 1st comes around I think I have endorphins release inside me that makes my five senses heightened, my taste buds come alive for pumpkin spice everything!!! My smell is so sharp, I actually can smell Fall in the air, along with burning leaves. I love the feel of the crisp mornings, and seeing the colors of the leaves changing and falling to the ground, signaling change is on the way, excites me, as does hearing the kids playing in the piles of leaves. Fall time is euphoric for me.
I'm not big on Halloween. I tell my hubby, kids and grandkids it's my least favorite holiday to celebrate. I decorate the house on September 1st with autumn things, and hold off on the Halloween things until October. We always go to my son and daughter in law's house to pass out their candy, while they take the grandkids trick or treating. I find it to be the most boring 2 hours I have to get through.
Okay, getting back to the book. I am now behind in my reading since we had such a busy week end, and I had my luncheon with the high school girls this morning. I came home pooped out, and just laid on the couch and relaxed til dinner. I think it's early to bed, and will tackle the next section in the morning.
PatH., I do feel the domes are built for a purpose. If I remember correctly when they were in Rome, their was a discussion about the lighting from the domes, and the significance of it. I'm too tired to look it up now, maybe tomorrow. Domes remind me of prisms, and how can you not be amazed at the colors that bounce off of a crystal, or beveled piece of glass, catching the sun's rays. I am always marveled at it. No epiphany as yet though.
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Early Autumn sipping Sherbet overlooking the mountains of Turkey near Rize
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/55e7c71c356e97e5bd41ab0147989608/tumblr_pfy6mfBYvF1qia38so1_1280.jpg)
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Bellamarie funny how Halloween has become as big as Christmas with the decorations - my take is that it is not as associated with a religion and so everyone, just like everyone celebrates Mother's day - but after awhile it all does seem silly and as you suggest, boring - when there are little kids around it was fun but even that is no longer the knocking on doors in the dark with so many kooks - I must say though I do like reading the Headless Horseman with ol' Ichabod Crane and if the cartoon movie version is on TV I like to watch it.
Domes remind you of prisms - like to hear more about that Bellamarie
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Wow - was this turn of events a surprise to you as you read this section - into the dungeon for Jahan and lo and behold with him are the Gypsies (Roma people) he danced for to get their female elephant to satisfy Chota
Found this on a site from facebook
" The Roma on the Balkans did not live isolated from their cultural and historical surroundings; on the contrary, they were an integral part of it and consequently were greatly influenced by the various Balkan peoples. Significant numbers of Roma have remained in the Balkans for centuries, others migrated from there throughout the world in past and modern times, taking with them inherited Balkan cultural models and traditions. The Ottoman Empire dominated the Balkans for over five centuries and made a distinct impression on the culture and history of the region. Thus the role of the Ottoman Empire is a key factor in the process of formation and development of the Roma people."
Oh dear it looks like when Jahan does get out and meets with the married Princess Mihrimah he 'covets his neighbor's wife'
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Oh my! I am just at the part where Jahan has been imprisoned and Balaban is offering to make him family. Once again, someone comes to the aide of Jahan unexpectedly. Don't know why, but Jahan's imprisonment made me think of Paul being imprisoned, and Luke would come to visit with him and take messages back to their people to not lose faith. I loved the recent movie Paul, Apostle of Christ.
Barb, Domes remind you of prisms - like to hear more about that Bellamarie
It's all about the refraction of light through the glass, be it prisms or domes. Either will cast beautiful different colors and hues. Both are fascinating to me.
Without getting too scientific, here is a short video on how the electromagnetic waves with different wave lengths work with light refraction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGqsi_LDUn0
Here are some different types of prism/domes. Magnificent!!!
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=how+is+a+dome+like+a+prism&chips=q:tensegrity+dome,g_3:architecture&usg=AI4_-kQw8peZFCZtqLx_NCG2D765NOP7IQ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiY8PCJm-jdAhXHy4MKHVsfCZIQ4lYIKigA&biw=1229&bih=578&dpr=1.56
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Wow Bellamarie - I had no idea that a prism and dome had so much in common - in your second link I clicked on a photo and visited the site where the photo originated and found this wonder - all about Domes. tra la
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dome
I am having so much fun reading this book learning so many things I had no clue about and would never have been curious about - I do not know about y'all but I am having the time of my life - the story is almost secondary although Jahan's adventures have me on edge as if reading a detective story waiting for the next shoe to drop. I think part of what Shafak has done is to include the realizations that Jahan has when he knows he messed up.
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Never heard this - have any of you?
"The most well-known legend regarding Gypsies is the one about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. In this legend Gypsies are described as a people who made nails used in Jesus crucifixion."
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What a glorious book discussion. Such fabulous links. Domes, domes, domes. St. Peter's in Rome to the Apache wigwam in America. One could feel at the centre of the universe. Isn't architecture thought of as the queen of the sciencs? Or is it the queen of the arts?
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Queen of something Jonathan - architecture and building appears to touch ever aspect of our lives - farming and ranching may feed us but even they need storage, and preparation and cooking that required architecture and now we are leaning that includes a city's water works.
- What do you y'all think - is safe and plentiful water the calling card to urbanization - Do all roads leading to a city because of access to pure water or do you think that other influences created a city that then required water - Water is still a topic for most large cities - which came first - the large population making the most of the available resources or the access to fresh water? In other words is the Grand Vizier correct in his assessment?
- During the Holocaust we had massive numbers of Gypsies condemned with the Jewish population to the gas chambers - do you have an opinion why Gypsies are, to this day, considered a group that is 'less' than those who have the social power to run companies and governments and join, as a respected member, a community?
- Do we know if coveting thoughts about the wife of another is as much an Islamic 'no no' as it is a Christian 'no no' - Does Islam have a set of laws memorized as the major 'no no's' of Islam and if so do the Islamic laws say anything about coveting the wife of another?
- Is the argument of "...faith true. But also with knowledge." the argument over science versus faith? How was this argument handled in Rome?
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Wow - the Holy Man Al-Khidr is their green man --- http://khidr.org/
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This book has me coming and going, upside down and inside out. This section is so packed with so many different things happening, I can barely keep track. I got my pen and paper out just to try to remember some points I want to mention. I woke up thinking about this book, and thought to myself, either this author is brilliant, trying to use scripture and parables as hidden messages, and a bit on the eccentric side with so many thoughts packed into one section of this book, or I am just overwhelmed, and lack the ability to see all these things actually taking place and being believable. I feel like just going to pick up my book leaves my mind in a fog. Where to begin????
I am up to pg. 226, Jahan has recovered from his illness, been released from the prison, has been brought to the Princess Mihrimah's massion, sits on silk cushions, eating caviar, met Alisha her daughter who she has told all Jahan's stories to, and has also, once again, stood before Sultan Suleiman and the Grand Vizier, along with Sinan to discuss the bridges and water.
I have said many times how it appears Jahan seems to be in the right place at the right time, or the wrong place at the wrong time, and always has an unexpected person to help him in his most needed times. The gypsies have come through for him once again. Refusing to leave the prison until he was released. Now that really seemed a bit too far fetched for me. I'm beginning to shake my head and say.....REALLY?
Anyway, on pg. 207 While standing before Sultan Suleiman and the Grand Vizier, Sinan is being questioned about the reasons for the need to build the aqueducts and bridges.
The Shayh al-Islam, Ebussuud Efendi, his face as unreadable as a faded manuscript, spoke first. "In our glorious city there are bridges from the time of the infidels that have not survived. They collapsed because they were built without true faith. Do you agree?"
Sinan took a deep breath. "God gave us a mind and told us to use it well. Many ancient bridges are in ruins because they were not built upon firm ground. When we raise a bridge we make sure the water is shallow, the earth is solid, the tides favourable. Bridges are built with faith, true. But also with knowledge."
This reminded me of the parables Jesus told in Matthew 13:1-58
1 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake. 2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore. 3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one: “Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. 4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. 5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! 9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”
Then in verses 36- 49
36Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.” 37 Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39 The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. 40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand! 44 “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure that a man discovered hidden in a field. In his excitement, he hid it again and sold everything he owned to get enough money to buy the field. 45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a merchant on the lookout for choice pearls. 46 When he discovered a pearl of great value, he sold everything he owned and bought it! 47 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. 48 When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. 49 That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous,
pg. 208 the Sultan raised his hand and said, "The Chief Royal Architect is right. Water is a charity and must be distributed generously: I shall give water to the people and I shall pay my workers."
Brilliant! The comparisons going on here between scripture and this author's historical fictional writing.
pg. 209 On the way back they passed through marble corridors, the master and the apprentice. The elation that came over them was so intense that they found it hard to stay silent. Jahan knew that not only his heart had been pounding; his master, too, had been scared. Once again, Sinan found himself in a tight spot when all the wanted to do was his work. Once again, as though aided by an obscure well-wisher, he had been reprieved. Perhaps he had a protector, Jahan thought, a mysterious patron who interfered on his behalf each time thing got too thorny, an invisible guardian angel always by his side . . .
Seems to me, Jahan, himself, has his own guardian angel watching over him as well.
So the building is to begin, let the water flow to the people like milk and honey...... not so fast.
Remember what Jesus said.... "The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil."
Seems the workers have slowed down with trepidation of an apparition, thinking there is a saint among them, and with sabotage going on, it seems the devil himself is at hand.
pg. 222 Until this point their master had overcome every obstacle, no matter how great or daunting. Yet this was different. How could Sinan possible defeat a ghost?
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Wow, indeed!!! I'm overwhelmed, Barb, and Bellamarie. What a story. What a fascinating link to Al Khidr and then an account of Jesus and his parable of the sewer and the seed. My most treasured posession is my mother's bible. The water of life, she would tell us. At other times she would entertain us with stories. Sometimes thrilling ones, about gysies. How they were inclined to kidnap children. But they were also fantastic fiddlers. Always a good time to be had in their company. Thieves by nature. Like our hero.
I think I've found a book for a later discussion. City of Djinns, A Year in Delhi, by William Dalrymple. We seem to be finding them everywhere in Istanbul. So, this is also a ghost story.
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Oh yes, Bellamarie I agree - it is like being on a roller coaster as the various incidents follow each other - sometimes out of the blue - it is almost as if reading several chapters is too much to take in with so much change in the story - and the analogies - Shafak has a gift, she uses just enough sentence construction or description of an event to tap into our stored resources. The biblical quotes you use Bellamarie, fit right in don't they and again, I see the Sultan having to be like Salomon deciding between the fears and maybe jealousy of the Grand Vizier versus the forward looking and scientifically proven thinking of Sinan.
That balance between faith or tradition and science has kept society on edge with every new discovery. Those on the side of faith and tradition during 16th century Ottoman history mock the scientists as if the scientist/architect was attempting to be as their greatest mythological holy man, Al-Khidr where as, today it is the scientists who have pushed the envelope to question, in fact no longer even question to make the statement, there is no God.
After the fact it seems so simple - how water is found and measured and in Rome the trial of Galileo seems ridiculous, how could the church fathers be so narrow minded and yet, they must have felt the same drain emotionally as we do today when folks, like the recently deceased Steven Hawkins said, there is no God and hundreds of thousands agreed with him.
The aspect of Jahan's presentation to the Sultan while he was hunting that had me squirming was when Jahan makes a pitch for the bridge that was not included in Sinan's plan or drawings - talk about a bridge to far - that made me uncomfortable and yet, I can see that is probably how progress is achieved - rrrhrar feels to me like scratching fingernails on a blackboard. I guess it shows I am not a risk taker in the scheme of a working hierarchy - ;) know your place - ah so...
I guess it fits - was never really rebellious - my approach is, if they would just listen to another side and use their reason to balance things we could move along - and of course after nearly 40 years in Real Estate I know that is not true - that all reason ever does is justify an emotional decision - oh dear, I still blanch at pushing the envelope or making a scene to make things happen. Wait a minute, no need to question my approach - it fits 100% with my Enneagram - I'm a 5, the Researcher. "Fives are motivated by a desire to understand. To them, gathering knowledge and mastering information are not just interesting endeavors but keys to survival." And so differently, where Jahan may be a learner he is also a risk taker.
Talk about risk taking - what did you think of Jahan taking the Chief White Eunuch's beloved stallion - I was waiting for something terrible to happen to the horse. At minimum it would be stolen as they were robbed on their way back from Rome.
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What a great definition of the Bible from your mother Jonathan - The water of life - before TV it sure watered a lot of lives where often the only book in a house was the Bible and libraries were few.
Interesting how we can remember the stories told to us as children about folks different from ourselves - I remember my father's mother telling us about Gypsies - and yes, the typical stories of how they would steal and not work and live check to jowl in small hidden places - they almost sounded to me more like leprechauns or trolls having never seen a Gypsy - later from some childhood reading, I have no memory of the book, I thought they were fabulous horsemen - Did not know they were known for their fiddle playing - I always associated great 'fiddle' playing with Jewish folks and mournful fiddle playing with mountain people.
Need to go look up City of Djinns, A Year in Delhi, by William Dalrymple - you always do come up with great books to consider - I did end up getting the book you talked about in the Spring about Bells - it evidently is an old book that has been republished as a copy - have not gotten too far into it but it sure brings an appreciation for bells.
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So many things to comment on in this section, I don't know where to begin. Bellamarie points out how many people help Jahan when he gets in trouble. Why do they? There must be something appealing about him. Later, I can believe his single-minded concentration on his work helps.
Jahan finally realizes just how much, pages 243-4. Sangram, one of the first people he met among the animal tenders, knew all along that Jahan had been an imposter, and hadn't told, feeling sorry for J.
Jahan bit his lip. How bizarre it was. While he had been running after things that were never going to happen and resenting life for gifts it had denied him, there had been people supporting him without drawing attention to themselves. They had given and expected nothing in return.
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As you, Pat and Bellamarie note there are many who help Jahan and from the description of the times it appears without these angles of help he would be dead a long time ago.
You are ahead of me Pat - I am only on page 229 and so a bit later I can ask more about what you see in Sangram's kindness to Jahan
A quicky - makes sense and explains how many Cathedrals in Italy and Spain especially the street adjacent to the Cathedrals are filled with souvenir shops - I bet they started out being just as Mihrimah suggests for the mosque to honor her husband- there should be a row of vaulted shops to provide revenue for the mosque.
Interesting - a sublet message that anything built or I guess any object owned - it is not just the initial cost to obtain or build the item but revenue is needed to maintain the item. hmm with all this downsizing and simplifying - getting rid of 'stuff' - with less 'stuff' less funds are needed to maintain it.
Shafak even includes money management and economics in her novel - what a mind...
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the noble type of kindness that is Sinan reminds me of St. John Chrysostom who is from that part of the world and lived at least 1000 years before the birth of Sinan - at the risk of trying to turn these Islamic greats into examples of Christian faith - like all of us we can only see the greatness in comparison to what we know and for sure according to this story Sinan had a respect for all Religions - here is an excerpt about the life of St. John Chrysostom.
After receiving the best education which Constantinople could offer, St. John entered a monastic community. After eight years of prayer and austerities in a damp cave, he returned to the city where he worked as an assistant to the bishop. His first duty was to feed the poor and teach the gospel.
St. John became an eloquent preacher (“Chrysostom” means golden-mouthed), and he became famous as the mightiest orator in Byzantine Christianity. Great crowds flocked to hear his inspired sermons. Eventually, against his wishes, he was elected Patriarch of Constantinople.
Upon election, he stripped the excess and luxury from the bishop’s palace and sold it all to establish hospitals and hostels for the poor. His preaching against ostentation and the lack of charity among the rich made fierce enemies.
He was eventually deposed and sent into exile in Armenia where he wrote hundreds of letters and commentaries on Scripture and contemporary subjects. No other Greek father left so extensive a literary legacy.
He became a revered authority on the content of faith, which makes his insights about creation important for establishing the authenticity of ecological concern in Church ministry. In Antioch, where he was born, he was given the title “Great Teacher of the Earth,”
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Barb, it's interesting that you should bring up St. John Chrysostom (350-407). He certaintly sounds very inspirational, perhaps the Billy Graham of his day. I've found a serman of his, preached on the text from Ehesians 5:22-24.
'Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the Church: being Himself the Saviour of the body. But as the Church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything.'
The modern editor has this advice for the reader:
'While a superficial look at the text for the sermon that follows might provoke dismay in some modern readers, it is a fitting testimony to John's powers to see what deep truths he has extracted from a few verses of Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians.' (Tongues of Angels, John F. Thornton & Katharine Washburn)
It's a great sermon, but would never be preached now.
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Ah yes, but then Jonathan there is so much change in the nearly 2000 years since Paul wrote from jail to the Ephesians and over 1700 years since St. John Chrysostom preached based on the traditions held for 1600 of those 1700 years, that women had a very limited purpose - to bear children and care for the needs of men and their family.
This break in tradition is why Roxelana, the wife of Suleiman the Magnificent was so unique. Since the sixteenth century, gradually, men in mostly western or far eastern nations have learned, women do have a brain equally as capable as men's brain and women are able to go toe to toe physically in many work and play situations, so the hierarchy of power under the guise of administering care with ownership no longer fits.
Interesting this is along the lines of inquiry among the Tao group I meet with - we realized so much of religion is based on behavior that only needs guidelines when there is more than one - this thought prompted us to look at religions, not exclusively as an inward journey towards God but rather, as an organized system directing social behavior.
Therefore, as society grows and matures changes happen as the society becomes more advanced with added learning. To be relevant and have half a chance of directing energy to a person's inner spiritual life, religion cannot dwell on rules that affected the past without also growing and changing.
Bottom line our question became, Why be 'Good'? Being good we are told pleases God but really it effects how folks can live peacefully with each other and create community - Then the question became, 'what does 'Good' mean when various social groups have very different moral values? Questioning ethics and religious codes of behavior points to religions controlling society including the leaders, the Emperors, Kings, Sultans etc. equally as the poorest, youngest and oldest within a religious affiliated society.
Interesting as we read of Eunuchs and the Janissary - all non-Muslims because, Islam does not allow some of the practices required to have Eunuchs and a well trained fighting force. We talk about the evils of Slavery and yet, not only are slaves common in the Ottoman Empire as in every nation, reading I learned Christians in Africa performed the surgery required to create Eunuchs and that was a killing field - Surgery had not advanced to stop bleeding - The only solution was to bury these boys in the desert sand up to their waist and hope that the bleeding would stop - over half the boys died.
Today, in our own nation - public prayer and the power of religious leaders may not have been democratic according to our Constitution and the battle between faith and science may have been as fierce as ever but, the loss of the moral codes that religions advocate is the price we are paying - Madalyn Murray O'Hair did us no favor.
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Jonathan,
My most treasured possession is my mother's bible. The water of life, she would tell us.
The water of life. Without water, we could not survive in this world. I love your mother's choice of words describing her Bible.
The ONLY book I recall ever to be in our home growing up was our family Bible. My mother would sit with all of us on the couch and show us the pictures, and talk to us about our faith. It had a lasting impression on me, and I too repeated this with our three children. Today, I am the person I am, and remain steadfast in my faith largely because of my mother reading to us from our Bible.
PatH., There must be something appealing about him.
I have to wonder if it is appealing, or dumb luck, fate, generosity, pay it forward, some seeing a young boy and wanting to help him, and now that he is becoming a young man, it seems that guardian angel he speaks of that is with Sinan, is also following him as well.
Can it be believable, when an author seems to have this character constantly saved in the most dire situations Jahan has faced, and always has a saving grace? It is starting to wear a little thin with me.
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'It is starting to wear a little thin with me.'
For me too, Bellamarie. Or are we missing all the action? Why does she make Jahan the hero of her story, the twelve-year-old from India? Of course he's a hundred at the end. Oh well, there's some interesting romance. Roxelana is in the background pulling all the wires, and the reader is asked, what builds the better bridge - science or faith? One can't afford to offend the powers that be. Even an author must be careful.
All your posts leave me with much to think about.
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Jahan isn't twelve in much of our story. It took me a while to realize just how much the story jumps back and forth, and I still don't have it all straight.
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Oh dear - and then on the other side of the coin is that he did spend time in the dungeon - sure the gypsies were there to help him through it but come on - drawing on the wall with pooh - holy hannah - if that is the work of an angel saving him I sure do not want to be introduced to that angel.
This story is as if Jahan was a real character and we are reading his bio - I'm thinking most bios include how folks added to a life and how during big controversies retold in the bio, the author tells how he/she either overcame or were helped by someone/others - can anyone remember reading a novel where the entire story was told through the one character - I guess A Man in Moscow did that -
aha maybe that is the message - in times fraught with danger and death those who last only last with the help of others -
hmm thinking on it, the floods in Houston were a great example because we could see what happened on the TV news how ordinary folks help each other during times of danger. I'm thinking of the many times when driving and someone is in trouble we stop and if, like my son and all his boys who have a pickup and they are pulling cows or other vehicles out of a ditch or pond or we're helping a mom in the supermarket because her little one won't stop crying or when the IRS was taking everything from Willie Nelson everyone in Austin attended that sell off and we gave what we purchased back to Willie or or or - I think it is human nature to help folks and we seldom decide to help or not based on how someone looks - you just do it... without even thinking... you just do it.
At the risk of sounding like Pollyanna or little miss sunshine I can see and am ok with Jahan receiving help at times during his life - he sure is not perfect and he does experience some harsh and scary times especially those weeks or couple of months in a dungeon where he lost so much weight.
One thing for sure, after he was in the dungeon he grew in assertiveness - before, I do not see him demanding what he wanted and needed and after, not only does he demand he be taken to a bath but seems to have grown in his ability to stand up for himself.
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Last night on PBS there was a whole bit including the author who wrote I am Red - remember the book was discussed here but I did not join that discussion - evidently the story also too took place during the sixteenth century Istanbul. Sounds like some of the same issues we are reading about but from the viewpoint of a artist. - Did you see the PBS program or did you read I am Red - can you share with us anything you remember about the story in that book that coincides with this book?
Ah yes, Pat it does go from even to event quickly without a lot of before and after - like separate threads in a woven piece of cloth - the telling reminds me of a family member who shares around the table bits and pieces of their life story - I wonder if we will find as we read there is a method to the madness of not telling this story in chronological order.
I wonder if the story is really about the building projects and Jahan telling the story is reminded during each project of something in his life that better painted the picture of what happened during the project being discussed - I do not know just guessing - because yes, it does jump around doesn't it.
Bellamaire really what a special memory of your mom reading to you from the Bible - that was strong stuff wasn't it to hear during childhood but then coming from your mother all would be like honey going down. Did you have any special Bible stories you enjoyed and wanted your mother to read again?
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In between all these phone calls I did need to share Jonathan I did look up the book you suggested - wow - had no idea that Dalai had that many cities built on top of each other and the area is part of history for thousands of years - it does look like a book to read doesn't it - with India being in the news so often and watching again on PBS the The Jewel in the Crown and Indian Summer the next curiosity would be the long history of places in India... for now, I am so behind in my reading pile - I am almost glad we are to have an extra cold winter - reading time.
Talk about cold winter - one of the phone calls was from my daughter - my grandson is with his friend on a road trip across the nation - both North Carolina boys so driving on ice and snow is not their strongest suit but they both have had some experience - well they are in Montana and they hit a patch of ice and their vehicle rolled and rolled - the car is totaled - all their camping gear etc. strewn all over the road - except of headaches they are both OK and they both have friends from collage all over.
Turned out not too far away are two collage friends - one teaching at the University in Bozeman, Montana and another who lives within an hour's drive of their accident that they had no idea lived in Montana is coming to their rescue - after putting out a call for help on Twitter they had this kind of help even in the empty spaces of Montana - one has an empty room they can live in for a few a week and the other came and drove them to the friend with the empty room - it appears not on their schedule but they get a close up and personal view of Montana while Cole, whose liability insurance does not cover his vehicle, an old reliable that was worth only about 4K - so instead of money spent to rent a vehicle to get to Seattle where Ty, Cade's brother lives, Cole has decided to shop and replace his vehicle - he will need one when they are back home and they do want to drive down the coast of California to visit a close childhood friend living now in LA. so they too are learning that all the planning in the world and as Burn's wrote, The best laid schemes o' mice an' men
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Oh Barb, how awful to hear of your grandson's accident. I would keep a close watch on them for the next few days for concussions. I do hope they at least went to a nearby hospital to get checked out. Good to know there are people in this world who could come to their aide.
I had a bit of a scare myself today. My sister called to tell me her granddaughter was walking in their small town park this morning with her 8 month old baby boy strapped to her body in one of those cloth carriers Moms use. A woman approached her and told her how cute her baby was. She then attempted to pull the baby from the carrier and said, "Give me that baby!" My niece fought her off and called 911. Before the police got there the abductor's mother showed up and said this was her daughter who is Bi-Polar and has been off her medication. She said she slipped out of the house when the mother was not looking. The police came and took the woman to the nearest mental health hospital, she will remain there for evaluation. I told my sister no matter what, she needs to file charges for assault and attempted abduction of her baby. This is a small town in rural Michigan. She was just walking the park trail with her little baby boy, early in the morning. What has this world come to?
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PatH.,
It took me a while to realize just how much the story jumps back and forth, and I still don't have it all straight.
Hmmm.... I have not noticed the story out of chronological order. In this section Jahan must be in his teens, and approaching his early twenties, since he has just lost his virginity at the bawdy house. Also, the Princess has progressed in age, married, and now has three children of her own.
Jonathan, Or are we missing all the action? Why does she make Jahan the hero of her story, the twelve-year-old from India?
I don't think we are missing any action. He does not appear to be twelve years old throughout this entire section, as I pointed out, he is in his teens and we can see how the author is progressing him, the Princess and even Sinan. Is Jahan really "a hero" in this book? So far, I have seen him be brave at times, but not sure I would go as far as saying he is heroic. At this point of the book, I never even considered there was a hero. Hmmmm....
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OH oh oh Bellamarie how absolutely terrifying - and you really do not know if their excuse was real of not - Oh my - I'm including your family in my prayers...
It appears we are all having our time reacting with this novel - the story is hitting all sorts of buttons within us - bringing out all sorts of memories in our own lives - there is a kind of jerkiness to the tales, one on top of the other and so I can see how for some of us it is not as easy to follow however, we are all doing well - very well - especially considering we knew so little about this area of the world, the culture, the history, the wars, religion or the arts.
It is interesting isn't it that the author chose a boy from India to tell the story of the Ottoman Empire in the sixteenth century - I wonder if it has something to do with where elephants used in war came from - several have shared they knew of war elephants because of Hannibal's crossing the Alps - I wonder where Hannibal's elephants came from? Surely no elephant is native to Mongolia or China, but maybe the Ayutthaya Kingdom which was a Siamese kingdom - hopefully before the story is finished we can dope out why a "twelve-year-old from India" was made "the hero of her story"
And yes, not sure he is a hero but surely the protagonist - I'm thinking that Sinan is a greater example of a hero and for sure the elephant appears to act heroically - maybe it has to do with how we each define hero - often the one that is set as central casting is called the hero unless he is a real Villon.
Notice how consistent through out the story are buildings - during each happening the buildings or housing for the characters is described - from the building in the first bit when the knock to the door came as the wind blew one night to the description of voluptuous tents overlooking battles during war - even the trip was in housing of sorts that rode the high seas. Hmm I wonder, maybe it is the various expression of architecture that is holding this story together. Questions like, do we or do we not build a tower to protect the bridge had new meaning if architecture is holding together all the tales of those who cross paths with Jahan.
Yes Pat, I read on pages 243 and 244 how Sangram knew but now I have to go back and re-read the story Jahan told Sangram when he first arrived - there is so much going on and so many events that it is like, that was so long ago and since we even had Jahan tell stories of his journey to Istanbul to Mihrimah, I have lost what the differences were in his stories.
Evidently the "advisor Feridun Beg who convinced" the new Sultan "that is was fine to let the multitude have a bit of fun" is a real person.
FERİDUN AḤMED BEG (FEREYDŪN AḤMAD BAYG), ʿABD-AL-QĀDER, Ottoman secretary, administrator, head of the chancery, and author. A protégé of the famous grand vizier Moḥammad Pasha Ṣoqollū, Feridun Beg also distinguished himself at the siege of Szigetvár (1566) and was subsequently promoted to the posts of secretary of state and chancellor.
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Found this bit - answers some questions we may have about the various titles for Suleiman the Magnificent. In the east, he is remembered as Suleiman the Lawgiver.
“Sultan of the Ottomans, Allah’s deputy on earth, Lord of the Lords of this world, Possessor of men’s necks, King of believers and unbelievers, King of Kings, Emperor of the East and the West, Majestic Caesar, Emperor of the Chakans of great authority, Prince and Lord of the most happy constellation, Seal of victory, Refuge of all the people in the whole entire world, the shadow of the almighty dispensing quiet on the Earth.”
Wow - OK here is the breakdown:
"The first title - “Allah’s deputy” implies his supreme Islamic authority without overstepping the mark (the word ‘Islam’ means ‘one who submits to God).
The “possessor of necks’ harks back to his father Selim’s practice of beheading even senior officials; anyone who displeased the sultan could expect to be beheaded for certain crimes.
The next few titles are unexpectedly Roman. The Ottomans were aware that when they conquered Constantinople (in essence, the Eastern Roman Empire) the titles of “emperor” and “Caesar” still had importance. Claiming to be ”Emperor of the East and West” was not only an exaggeration, but also a direct challenge to the authority of Rome which, at this point, was hopelessly outclassed by the Ottomans.
“King of Kings” may sound a little biblical, but that’s only because the Gospels took the title from the Persian emperors’ Shahenshah, literally, ‘king of kings’. So, again, the Ottomans are challenging a major rival, but this time it’s in the east, the Safavid Persians.
The next few titles are little more than showing off, but then we come to “Refuge of all the people in the whole entire world”, which shows that the sultans were well aware that their empire was multi-cultural and multi-religious, with Christians, Jews, Muslims and others all living together, not necessarily in harmony, but much better than anywhere else at the time. The ejection of the Jews and Muslims from Spain was still fresh in the minds of those living in the first half of the 16th century.
Only two of Suleiman’s military campaigns failed; he swept through everything else before him. When he wasn’t in the saddle, he was sitting in his opulent palace in the largest city in Europe. His empire stretched for hundreds, if not thousands, of miles in all directions. If anyone should be called ‘magnificent’, Suleiman fitted the bill perfectly."
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Thanks Barb for the info on the various titles.
And yes, not sure he is a hero but surely the protagonist - I'm thinking that Sinan is a greater example of a hero and for sure the elephant appears to act heroically - maybe it has to do with how we each define hero - often the one that is set as central casting is called the hero unless he is a real Villon.
I was thinking the same thing, if there is a hero in this story, so far, I see it more to be Sinan or Chota. But as of this far into the book, I'm not sure I have seen true heroic acts. But then I suppose riding an elephant into war is pretty brave. Chota has certainly done some pretty amazing things.
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What fun. What a lively discussion. And what a book. Shaharazade would have been envious. And it's only after one has turned the last page that one realizes what one missed along the way.
Jahan not a hero? Why is everyone helpful and friendly? Except the Grand
Vizier, Mihrimah's husband, Who had him thrown into that vile dungeon, the Fortress of Seven Towers. In a fit of jealousy?
Wouldn't the rescue of the baby from the burning building make him a hero? Or the resue of the bookseller' entire inventory, with Chota's help?
Want to read more about Istanbul? Read Orhan Pamuk, especially Istanbul: Memories and the City, beautifully illustrated with historic photographs.
Indian Summer on PBS? How did I miss that? Thanks Barb. I
have the book. Alex Von Tunzelmann is a great historian. I'm about to begin her other book: Red Heat: Conspiracy, Murder, an the Cold War in the Caribbean.
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Oh Jonathan, how ever could I have forgotten about Jahan and Chota, rescuing the baby from the burning house. Shame on me. I have been so busy these past few days, I read very quickly, and feel like I need to go back over some pages. YES! Indeed Jahan was heroic!
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This is for you Jonathan...
(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/43237178_10214505751671335_138338865084628992_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&oh=503eb4bd9d96782d31004def97de6f20&oe=5C50BD92)
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Happy Canadian Thanksgiving, Jonathan. So do you cook for today, or do you go to a family members house?
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I do not know about y'all but I am anxious to find out what or who is behind all these accidents - I think I will start to read ahead - has everyone finished this first half of the Dome? We may think about moving along starting Monday but do not want to rush y'all - I can read ahead and wait to share my thoughts as other's have who had to read the entire book since they had to return it last week already.
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Thanks, Barb.
I'm blown away everytime I log on and pause to admire the magnificent cover. Here we are at the court of Suleiman the Magnficent and the story is all about that little guy who is in danger of being trampled by that big beast (Mihrimah's term for him). A most unusual story. An old man's memories, architecturally structered, in the form of a literary mosque. There's no other way to describe it. I hope that's not ireverrant.
The ending is a blast. Hang on to your hat.
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Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three SultansDiscussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256
- Sunday October 7....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Thursday October 11................After the Master
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Helpful Links for reading and watching “People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.” - Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque) (https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/early-europe-and-colonial-americas/ap-art-islamic-world-medieval/a/mosque-edirne)
- A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNgc02-jvE)
- 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpcQEGw3S4)
- Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDWaBmKpfY)
- Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IYqgkrrJ0)
- Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqB57PVWQE)
- Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQtaQYpzTw)
- Janissaries (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHhLXmDox8)
- Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan (https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/06/19/facts-ottoman-janissaries/)
- Mimar Sinan (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YrijHoDmw)
- Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments (http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sinan.htm)
- Elif Safak, author (http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/)
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
Curious, too, that the old man's memory is a bit shaky, but gets a lot of help from the narrator.
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Ok Jonathan sounds like you have finished reading the entire book - not sure where Pat and Bellamarie are in their reading - I am assuming that Frybabe and Callie finished reading the entire book since they had to get their copy back to their respective libraries.
And so we are going to move up the remaining pages of this section called, The Dome and lets see if we need the entire week or not but if not we may even move up that last section to the end of this coming week
Sorry Jonathan your post is going to be at the bottom since the first post of after ever 30-40 pages is for the heading - so the heading will be inserted in your post.
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Barb, I have not read ahead, but I am okay with moving up the reading schedule. I will begin reading the next section of The Dome tomorrow.
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I'm on target, having finished the first half of The Dome on schedule, have more to say, which can easily be fed in while we're reading.
I'm currently in Portland, will be flying back to Bethesda Tuesday, so won't be much of a presence then, but can be around most of the rest of the time.
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The first sentences of The Dome impressed me:
Jahan would always remember 1562 as the year of happiness. Everyone had one such year in their lives, he believed. It grew, it blossomed, and, just as he started to think it would always be like this, it was over.
Is this true? Probably for some of us. And for everyone there must be some time that ends up having been the happiest time of their life. But I can't figure out what it would be for me. I've been blessed with a lot of happy times and not too many bad ones, and I can't pinpoint the best.
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Hope your flight is smooth Pat - and yes, to think someone has a memory of their happiest time as being one time - maybe that is the difference - He is not saying his happiest day - but then even at that, to have a time that appears to be a year or less as your happiest - I guess thinking on it - as an elderly man it may be nice to have a time that is easy to retrieve and mentally relive as a happy time.
But then thinking further, many of the years I was bringing up children were for me the happiest and yet, within those years there was heartache and events that were not happy - and so maybe it is more a successful time without anything you cannot handle that makes for happiness.
All I know is with all the successful years I have had as a Broker, often being challenging, none of it compared to my experience when my children were growing up - in fact since and now that I am about finished with Real Estate as well, I am really finding it difficult with no obvious purpose in my life - hmm I wonder Pat - was there ever a time in your life when it was only success without your being challenged and your tummy had butterflies or the tension in the back of your neck tightened?
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I'm not so sure Jahan is stating it was the "happiest" time of his life. He sees the year as being "the year of happiness."
I could never pinpoint one particular, "happinest" time of my life, because I have had so many. The day I married my hubby, the day I gave birth to each of my three children, the day each of my five grandchildren were born, the day my hubby and I celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary by renewing our vows in our church, celebrating our 35th wedding anniversary in Vegas, and so many other times, I could go on and on with, and I am still experiencing so much happiness. I think someone must be very blessed to be able to say a year of happiness, because inside a full year so many other things can happen to make it happy and unhappy depending.
PatH., Have a safe flight on Tuesday to Bethesda. Lucky you don't mind flying, with all the times you fly back and forth. Do you have a set time where you will finally be settled in just one place, with no more flying?
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Congratulations, Pat. You chose a beautiful quote about Jahan's "year of happiness". But it's only the first sentence of the most perplexing paragraph in the book. Was it seen that way in hindsight, as Barb suggests? No, he hoped it would go on forever. ( I think that may be author interference.) How old was he in 1562? That's always something to puzzle over in this story, isn't it? I've decided he was 34.
What a sorry picture of Mihrimah. 'She sent everyone into a cold sweat...people were frightened to upset her.' But Jahan 'was to besotted with her to remember to fear her....'
I'm sorry I'm being called to dinner...in great perpexity...........
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With all the lean-to's, animal pens and poverty immediately surrounding the Hagia Sophia Mosque reminds me of the same sort of structures and poverty around the Notre Dame in Paris till after the French Revolution when it too was cleared and cleaned.
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Hmm I think this is what lends itself to the jerkiness of the story that Pat brought up - the issue of the family that Jahan and Nikola encountered was horrific - we do not know how they got out or where they went - the story is stopped and all we know is Sinan sends a message acknowledging their difficult task and how unlawful construction wounds a city.
The story of these people is not followed - their harrowing existence is described to pull at our heartstrings and then like blood cut off it is as if our emotions are cut off with a cerebral response - that to me is not fair - I am almost afraid to continue for fear there will be more examples of the miss-use of my emotions - hmm is this telling us how the role of leadership must move forward in order to save what is valued. Feelings must be set aside and the law is the vehicle to get on with it... maybe so...
Just hit me - I bet Jonathan you were called to your Thanksgiving dinner - hope you have a blessed and warm friendship with dinner companions as together y'all enjoying your holiday meal.
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The more I think on the family in such dire need it reminds me of the homeless today - whose responsibility is it to house the homeless - seems they turn any space they can into a place to sleep - seems long before industrialized nations, depravity and deep poverty was part of a community - and so today, to blame this on corporations or banks or the lack of full employment is not really fair -
We have in the bible Jesus saying, "The poor you will ALWAYS have with you." - no reason why or how it is, but just that the poor will always be with us.
And even older, we have from the Torah, "If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be...For the poor you will always have with you in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’"
But what does open wide your hand mean if the poor are destroying what is important and valuable to a city or keeping shop owners from their income by sleeping by their front door or denying folks the use of a public park because it has become the sleeping quarters for the homeless - one thing to talk about a balance but then how and who provides hygienic living quarters for the poor - oh we have examples in this nation including Loaves and Fishes who have with private money and organization, set up a 19 acre community of tiny houses here in Austin but this is not happening all over the nation and even with the wonderful community set up here we still have folks begging on the highways and sleeping in the wooded parkland.
It appears like sixteenth century Istanbul the law is what keeps a city from chaos but it is blind to individual suffering.
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Tonight I watched this new TV show called, God Friended Me. This guy Miles keeps getting a message that says, "God sent you a friend request", and he keeps clicking delete, but it keeps coming back, he finally confirms it. He then gets a friend request to add a guy, John Dove suggested by God, and it is highlighted in blue, Add Friend. Miles sees this guy that looks like the pic of John Dove, follows him to the subway, sees he is about to leap in front of an oncoming train, and he stops him from killing himself. Miles's father is a Reverend, and Miles does a radio podcast where he says he does not believe in God. The first words in the show are, "New York City centre of the universe, home to 8.6 million people, a diverse melting pot of culture, everyone searching for meaning, answers. I thought I had it all figured out but then something happened and it changed my l life forever. There is no proof of God anywhere in the universe, we will debate that and more on today's episode of the Millennial Prophet, I am your host Miles Spiner. Reminding you that there is no God, and that is okay."
Instantly, it made me think of the book we are reading, where the same words, "Centre of the universe", keep coming up. Ironic, coincidence, I just know it was a bit interesting how this happened.
By the way, it's a great show!
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Bellamarie the program appears to be on CBS at 7:30 on a Sunday night - ever since it became cool to say there is no God and to show every which way from Sunday why scientifically there is no God more and more people are searching for a spiritual connection - interesting...
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Wow the second half of this section is dynamite - so much happens I have to go back and do a bit of re-reading - I have already forgotten - but some dynamite surprises - how did Jonathan put it... "The ending is a blast. Hang on to your hat."
Well this is not the end but it is a blast of the unexpected along with death; to buildings, people and the impending death of our star elephant - Could not stop reading so I have been up all night - to bed now for a few hours and back later...
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Barb,
more and more people are searching for a spiritual connection
Maybe that's God's divine plan!
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To say there is no God as you smash your idols, is cool on your way to the Truth. It's an endless search, or growth. It must be out there. It's our nature. Alas. We are the Chosen.
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Such happy days in a long lifetime. So much to be thankful for. And now my daughter and granddaughters have me travelling around the world. It's the souvenirs they bring back from their travels. Sea shells picked up on the beaches around the world. The shells from Zanzibar in the Indian ocean are dazzling. The wonders from the Atlantic on the coast of France are charmante. Magnificent the wonders from the Pacific on a beach on Vancouver Island.
Today is our Thanksgiving in Canada. Thanks for all your good wishes. I'm having some Chinese food brought in. With pumpkin pie. Have a happy day yourselves. Something to look back to.
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So Canadian Thanksgiving is TODAY, Monday the 8th - I thought yesterday Sunday the 7th - ah so -
A day set aside when a nation of people are grateful for their blessings successfully getting through a year and bringing in 'crops' (today that could be a year of a successful business) enough to last through another winter. And so, had to look it up and evidently there are nine nations in the world that celebrate thanksgiving of sorts
One of them is Liberia - I wonder if they still do after the disaster there in the last few years that has torn that country apart.
The US, Canada and Australia join Germany. Germany actually celebrates the harvest with Erntedankfest
Then there is Grenada, Japan, China, South Korea, and Vietnam that celebrate the bringing in of the harvest.
Looks like Jonathan your Chinese meal today is right in keeping with celebrating Thanksgiving. I wonder if China has pumpkin pie or pumpkin anything.
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Does anyone else see the dichotomy of Jahan seeking truth and yet, so many times lying through his teeth - and the same with giving and taking - he is anxious to give his best and make his imprint on the architecture he has the privilege to build as an apprentice to Sinan and yet, even after the Captain was reported dead he continues to look at opportunities to pilfer. Now we learn that nothing gets past Sinan and he knew all the time.
Sinan says, “If not put to use, iron rusts, woodwork crumbles, man errs. Work we must” Sounds like he is saying all we are is our work hmm what do you think? Does not fit with what we hear is our greatest challenge "To Love thy neighbor as thyself"
Loving neighbor builds community where as, work maintains community - maybe that is it - we cannot have one without the other. And so, work as a form of love and love expressed in work sounds like Martha in the Martha and Mary story.
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Okay, I just finished this last section of The Dome, and I am feeling about as depressed and sad as Jahan. He has lost his great love Mihrimah, his great mentor/father/Royal Architect Sinan, his beautiful elephant Chota, and Yusuf can no longer work with them since she is found out to be a woman. The Comet in Sagittarius has caused grave disasters, plagues, droughts, earthquake, poverty, grief, resulting in the observatory ordered to be demolished,. Good grief, how much can one take in one section? I feel the book winding down. Jahan has white in his hair, even his days seem limited. Ughhh....
Yes, Barb, I do see the dichotomy you mention, and it shows he is only human. The yen and yang in life. It's like I teach my 3rd grade CCD students, there is the devil that sits on your left shoulder enticing you to do wrong, and the angel sits on your right shoulder, encouraging you to do what is right. Jahan was brought up in poverty, so even though he has made a good life as an apprentice, he does seem to also fear it could be taken away at any minute and bring him back to his old life, and so he hides some valuable things in case it would happen.
I have so much more to say, but must get ready to leave for my granddaughters volleyball game.
Jonathan, again, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!! Aye,aye, aye pumpkin pie!!!! I love pumpkin everything. Enjoy!! You and your family sound like your travels are so very exciting. I've become a home body, not wanting to leave my 14 yr. old shih tzu dog, Sammy. He is like my shadow.
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I have to confess, I picked my book up last night after watching the swearing in of the Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh, and completed the entire book! I could not put it down til the last page. I promise not to give anything away, and will stay focused on the section we are on now.
I loved how Jahan was at the bedside of the Princess when she died. This really made the hair on the back of my neck stand up:
"When I am not around you m may hear things about me that you might not like." "No one may dare to say such things about your Highness." She gave a tired smile. "Whatever happens after I am gone, I want you to think of me with warmth in your heart. Will you promise to take no notice of gossip-mongers and slanderers?" "I shall never believe them." She seemed relieved but instantly frowned as a new thought crossed her mind. "What if you doubt me?" "Excellency, I'll never__" She didn't let him continue. "If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason."
It was as if she needed to die, knowing he still would love her and saw her, as the innocent child she was when they first met.
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Bellamarie the sentence that caught me while reading the passage you quote was, "If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason." I really went off on a riff after also, watching the swearing in of Judge Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court because there is often a reason that comes from an experience not obvious and then there is the whole issue of everyone's life experiences are different and everyone does not therefore share the same understanding or or see the same rational and that was when I saw it is the law that holds us together.
Even within the law there are nuances that are actually discovered during courtroom arguments that broaden the law as everyone accepts that a law does not speak to every instance or individual solution to a life challenge that was originally considered when the legal right was adopted.
Another difference that Mihrimah's directive suggests is that we often act upon our feelings, sometimes gut feelings or because of superstition as ghosts having caused changes as are agreed to in this story - the law does not include adjudication for our feelings there must be evidence. As Jahan is seeking truth he is really seeking evidence. And the behavior of Mihrimah may have been in reaction to a feeling or gut instinct that cannot be justified by anyone but her and that rational dies with her. I wonder if that is why we are cautioned never speak ill of the dead. We just do not know why they acted as they did in life.
I'm really having a very difficult time conjuring up an image for Jahan as he ages - is he still as wiry as I imagined him in his youth - hair grey and he would be fit with so much daily work - I just cannot get a picture beyond a man in his 30s or maybe his early 40s but past that I cannot catch hold of an image. Now Sinan seemed old from the time he entered the story and I could even see the princess in her aging body - but Jahan or for that matter I cannot imagine the look of an aging white elephant... ah so... there is enough in this story to challenge my thinking and in some cases my long held beliefs.
Another quote in the book that I thought hit the nail - "It seemed to Jahan that, in truth, this world, too, was a spectacle. One way or another, everyone was parading. They performed their tricks, each of them, some staying longer, others shorter, but in the end they all left through the back door, similarly unfulfilled, similarly in need of applause."
At first I recoiled at the thought we left this life needing 'applause'. How egotistical that sounded - until no, I realized, we all want to think we mattered, that we made a difference. We do not want to feel as if, like the observatory, our life would be torn down or prove to be forgotten and meaningless as the one whose comb was found by the fisherman. Or, even as Mihrimah having to give a directive that we acted as we did for a reason.
We may not have effected the lives of others as Suleiman the Magnificent however he too seemed to disregard his influence. and then Sultan Selim, who did not show 'magnificent' behavior although, during his drunken parties gave laughter to his companions as they attempted to protect him from himself and, he appears to have rewarded some of those in his realm. All this behavior because he was ill suited for his position and did not know how to be either fulfilled or appreciated.
Where do we put Captain Gareth in this parade, performing his tricks. He evidently was a skilled seaman whose skill was valuable to trade and creating riches in Istanbul but, is that overshadowed by his desire for ill gotten gains and to force weaker folks dependent on his skills to pilfer the riches he desired? Is he feeling unfulfilled and not receiving applause and so he takes, and has others take, as a substitute for recognition, for applause?
Jahan is fortunate - he has the good will and love extended to him by Mihrimah that started only because, as a child she was entranced by Chota and then Jahan as the keeper of Chota and as a storyteller - For sure Sinan has shown Jahan, over and over how much he is valued - but what strikes me is, Jahan seeks recognition - not only does he give his best but he pushes for his building ideas to be used. Jahan is selfless helping others as he did not think twice about dancing like a fool for the gypsies so he could borrow their elephant for Chota. We see that as selfless and it appeared the gypsies also were impressed enough to include Jahan in their 'family' - however, did that mean Jahan felt fulfilled or appreciated. Is that it, we may be told or accepted as appreciated but, we must believe we are worthy of appreciation in order to feel fulfilled?
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Barb,
Another quote in the book that I thought hit the nail - "It seemed to Jahan that, in truth, this world, too, was a spectacle. One way or another, everyone was parading. They performed their tricks, each of them, some staying longer, others shorter, but in the end they all left through the back door, similarly unfulfilled, similarly in need of applause."
Yes! I had highlighted that as well, because I found it to be so truthful. We ALL do want and need some form of recognition in life, so we can feel as though we truly mattered. Some are spectacles in their parade in life, they are pompous, egotistical, demanding attention, and needing accolades to feel accomplished and loved. Others, like our Jahan, needs to have his designs used, needed the company of the Princess because his heart yearned for her, needed the relationship of Chota because it gave him purpose to care for this animal, and he needed the role model and love of Sinan. All the rest were just performers in the circus parade of life.
Jahan was selfless, yet wanted very much to fulfill his lonely broken life. I especially loved how when he found out Yusuf was a woman it never mattered to him. He wanted to protect her and keep her on along side him as an apprentice. Sinan had a history of taking in broken people and making them whole again, giving them meaning and purpose in life.
I agree, like Mihrimah states,"If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason."
There always is "a reason", but..... does the ends justify the means?
"The ends justify the means." – Niccolò Machiavelli. Probably the closest Machiavelli gets to expressing this view is in Chapter XVIII of "The Prince": [M]en judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, because it belongs to everybody to see you, to few to come in touch with you.
We don't always know a person's reasons, but without knowing we are left to see only what we see, and when we hear something differently from what we have always seen, how do we deal with that? It gives me a lot to ponder.
Barb, and that was when I saw it is the law that holds us together.
Without "Law" where would we be? It is vital we preserve the Constitution of the United States, especially while we have people within out government and country ready and willing to tear it down. When I read they were going to demolish the Dome, after all that hard work, the beauty it held, the books of knowledge it held, and the amazing minds who designed it, all due to a suspicion/falsehood, it was cursed, I gasped! It's like in the world today, if someone can start a falsehood, get enough people to believe it, push the narrative, and then demand it is the ultimate destruction of something that is imperative to our protection, then we are at a crossroads in life that needs level headed people and longtime laws to step in and stop the calamity. I for one feel confirming Judge Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court was the right thing to do, it will help to continue to preserve our Constitution, and as the 14th amendment states: give“equal protection of the laws.”
I continuously remind myself, there is nothing new happening in the world today, it has happened before Christ, during Christ and after Christ, and will continue to happen. It's all about power, people wanting power either to do good or bad with it. We just have to be very careful who we allow to have access to that power.
Okay, have to get ready for yet one more volleyball game.
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Talking with my hubby about our book and posts about "Law", he reminded of this:
"The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions", known as the Lyceum Address based on the location of its giving. by Abraham Lincoln.
The actual quote reads "Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer. If it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
This applies to all nations who are not careful, who give power to people who have intent of harm, for their own greed, or purpose. I ask myself....... What is the Princess's reason? What is their reason?
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Wow! Such interesting posts. But then the book has such an interesting second half, inducing such provocative ideas. Here's a society that's governed by the will of the ruler, as opposed to the rule law. Current affairs make it seem we're leaving it behind in the search for justice for all. Didn't Thomas Jefferson see the need for an occasional lawless period for societal renewal.
But just as important as the rule of law, is the constitutional provision for the separation of church and state. We read about striking instances of the religious community imposing its will on the community. No need to study the heavens. Tear down the observatory.
I've just spent an hour in that long ago dscussion, My Name Is Red, with its setting in 16th in Istanbul. What fun we had with that one. In 2006.
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Bellamarie - interesting how we see in this book so many of our individual 'fast held' understandings and beliefs - and for that there are differences as well - my thinking is that we cannot banish an idea because in my view no idea can be banished by the powerful - however, we can agree as a community on principles, that are the measure of all ideas - Several communities is how I see this nation and to hold it all together we share principles which is the law embodied in the Constitution.
At the risk of turning this into a discussion on either the Constitution, the current law or political viewpoints, I'm thinking there are lots of decisions made by those in power or who are caught up among the powerful, that affects themselves and their protection as well as, the protection of family and friends.
As to this story, seems to me there was more 'palace' intrigue than we were privileged to know since this story is told through the eye, heart and mind of Jahan, whose understanding of the governing power is only what he observed. The only law seems to be Shara law and all other law is whatever the Sultan decides. And so, in order to stay on the good side of the Sultan I am sure there are decisions made that pit those in power against each other - In fact that concept seems to spill even to those working on the projects Sinan builds - accidents blamed on Ghosts that Jahan does not believe. For sure Jahan and Sinan broke the Sultan's trust, if not the law, sneaking in and removing as many books as Jahan could carry with the help of Chota - this is not something either Sinan or Jahan would like to be known and therefore, would fall under Mihrimah's quote, "If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason."
Mihrimah, like any mother, if she can she will figure a way around the tradition, that her children would murdered as is the practice of murdering any contender who could fight to be the Sultan. I am sure she would be manipulative rather than be one of the woman screaming in the night when her child or children are taken.
As to our views on the current news - these happenings do reach inward and many of us are researching to make sense out of a difficult couple of weeks. Bottom line, I saw the law and our Constitution's promises as the glue - however, I also see holes that I have no idea how to address. Actions to be adjudicated must be proven and need corroboration. Feelings and flashbacks and behavior modification because of past experiences cannot be addressed in a court of law - they are the by-product of an experience and no matter how de-humanizing that experience, without provable facts, the court of law is not where satisfaction can be obtained. To blame without facts is a problem of ethics/morality, a tactic used to discredited - bottom line, a form of intimidation. Intimidation, in the past few years has been taken to new heights of bullying with attempts to silence anyone who makes public, information or anyone who represents, other thinking.
We could both, I am sure, go on and on with examples of how this was done and by whom with enough finger pointing blame to go round - and yes, I agree there seems to be a civil war going on - the quote from Lincoln says it all, "If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."
My concern is, who benefits from this civil war and are we really as free as we think we are or have been educated to think, and finally, how do we call an armistice before there are shots fired.
But again, that is out of the scope of this book. From what I read, sixteenth century Ottoman rule was at its zenith and it was all down hill from there till its end in the early twentieth century. What happened? Why did Ottoman rule experience a slow death? But again, all subjects outside the scope of this book - However, this book certainly prompts more questions about the past as much as the present than we have read in a long time. And for sure, we cannot help read this book and ask questions. The book is far more than a simple story of a young Indian boy and his elephant as they experience a lifetime of events. Through out the book are bits of wisdom and questions that have us turn to sorting out our own ethics.
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Wow Jonathan, I got so wrapped up in the difficulties of the day that were lit afire by this book I did not see your post - hmm you have to wonder - did Shafak foresee or was some of out current unrest that visible when she penned this story? What a great idea to review the discussion on My Name is Red -
Interesting that you bring up separation between State and Church - we forget how some nations have a national religion that governs their behavior and how during the sixteenth century the civil war if you would was raging within the Roman Catholic Church and that the entire west had been under the control, even kings were second in their control to the Roman Catholic Church.
How do you separate church and state when within each of us our ethical views are often formed from our religious affiliation. I think that is part of this uproar. So many who no longer profess either a religion or their belief in God need to coalesce around a set of ethics and morality that has not been established into a formula or system but is trying to work with the law and a Constitution that was based on the religious point of view of its time. Yes, today there are many beliefs and practices that have changed. Some have been fairly successfully adopted and included in the Constitution and some are still caught in the traditions established in religious training learned on our mother's knee.
Holding all this together so that, unexpected forces do not take advantage as we learned in Shock Doctrine - it happened in New Orleans after Katrina and it could happen again as we continue the street fights that politics has become - we cannot stop the new ideas and so how they will play out will have our heartstrings playing various tunes for awhile. So far blame, shame and intimidation seem to be the weapons of choice.
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Jonathan,
But just as important as the rule of law, is the constitutional provision for the separation of church and state.
I'm afraid our country has decided to infringe on people's civil and religious liberties, and we can no longer separate church and state. I see us at a point now where it is, celebrities and liberals, versus, religion and conservatives, and as the proverb says, To the victor goes the spoils."
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More history few of us ever knew about - the battle at Szigetvar is known as the battle that saved Civilization - I'm guessing this is a western point of view - Szigetvar is in Hungary. The siege of Szigetvár successfully halted the Ottoman expansion towards the city of Vienna. The Ottoman death toil in a month was above tens of thousands.
"The fall of Szigetvár delayed the advancement of Ottoman forces for another century. For this reason, it is often referred to as “the battle that saved the civilization” – that exact quote comes from the infamous Cardinal Richelieu. Almost two years after the siege, the Treaty of Adrianople was signed, before significant territorial changes occurred. All of them were favourable to the Ottomans."
(https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/800px-Szigetv%C3%A1r_a_16._sz%C3%A1zadban-640x500.jpg)
Siege of Szigetvár Fortress
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Selim II
(https://alchetron.com/cdn/selim-ii-60e4417d-f5b0-42f8-ae1c-bf72771309a-resize-750.jpeg)
"After gaining the throne after palace intrigue and fraternal dispute, Selim II became the first Sultan devoid of active military interest and willing to abandon power to his ministers, provided he was left free to pursue his orgies and debauches. Therefore, he became known as Selim the Drunkard or Selim the Sot. His Grand Vizier, Mehmed Sokollu, a Serbian forced-convert from what is now Bosnia and Herzegovina, controlled much of state affairs.
As is commonly known, alcohol is forbidden in Islam, the professed faith of all Sultans (and by which authority they ruled). The attempt to portray certain Sultans as drunks seems to be rooted in a desire to demonstrate weakness of character and sincerity when it came to the faith of Islam. This accusation is repeated through most Western books regarding the Ottoman empire dated from the 18th century onwards (the Sultan ruled in the 16th century) however each case remains uncited as to its source."
Sokollu Mehmed Pasha
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Sokullupasa.jpg/263px-Sokullupasa.jpg)
"He was imposed on the name of Mehmed and, first in Edirne and then in Constantinople, received a thorough Ottoman education as a recruit, first as an apprentice Janissary, then in the Enderun or palace school in Topkapı Palace. Mehmed in 1541 became an Imperial Chamberlain and then the head of the Sultan's squires. In these positions he became very close to Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent and learned from him.
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Written by Hubbi Hatun, a notable female poet was a lady-in-waiting to Sultan Selim II and later to his son Sultan Murad III.
Being feminine is no shame to the name of the sun...
Being masculine is no glory to the crescent moon.
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Barb, Interesting post. Thank you.
Again, here we are today, with Kavanaugh experiencing the same as back then, with the drinking in his teens as a reason to make him unacceptable for the Supreme Court position. Some things never change.
As is commonly known, alcohol is forbidden in Islam, the professed faith of all Sultans (and by which authority they ruled). The attempt to portray certain Sultans as drunks seems to be rooted in a desire to demonstrate weakness of character and sincerity when it came to the faith of Islam.
But then from what I can deduce from this story, they didn't need alcohol, they had opium to keep them in a drunken state.
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Looks like in order to climb the ladder the first step is to train and be a Janissary - if you distinguish yourself while serving you are tapped just as Sinan was a Janissary and now we learn the Grand Vizier, Mehmed Sokollu for Selim II was a Janissary.
Bellamarie to your post - I read somewhere that for some folks their only taste of success is when they take a bit out of you - this is then referred to as a mosquito. Another that I keep as a reminder, folks who gossip get a high when they can point to the short-comings of another - as to our current situation let me recommend a book by Ben Shapiro that helped me - Bullies: How the Left's Culture of Fear and Intimidation Silences Americans.
We all deal with it in our own way - since I am more a centress I try to pull out what I can that actually highlights a problem - here of late that is a difficult task - I'm seeing too much control behind what is happening - just the women's march, it had to be organized - ever try to organize either a support or protest - it is like herding cats - it takes money and lots of organization - I'm seeing too many silently organized initiatives tearing this nation apart. They are too organized to be grass roots.
And so, with that realization I see real evil here, prying on the trauma's of being a woman and big time evil prying on women who have been humiliated which is the reality more often than folks want to accept. It is not difficult to get a women who has experienced trauma into an uncontrollable space where she losses all agency over herself just as, it would be cruel punishment to set up a returning veteran, who has experienced war trauma. Many know some vets (not all) cannot control themselves and so they end up leaving family and home or punching out beloved family members.
To use women and how they handle their trauma in order to gain a political coup to me is unconscionable - and so, without turning this discussion into a blow by blow retake on the last few weeks and all those who have been seriously wounded and damaged, you are right Bellamarie, it is now easier to see this assault on a victim when hearing or reading a story and we can also, more easily see how the basic weakness of perpetrators unleash their fury - because, regardless when it happens, as a teen or later in life, in the 11th century or the 21st century, sexual misconduct is about power - gaining the upper hand, just as, bullying and destroying someone's good name is about power.
Leadership only knows how to operate in a constant battle for power and for us to be sucked in is like a quote from Bryant McGill, "Some people will drag you into their hellish world if you let them." Or another, "Some people are not loyal to you, they are loyal to their need of you. Once their needs change so does their loyalty." Watch what happens to Ford - she is already off the front pages. Which to me, regardless of political view, this is an unconscionable act based on attempting a power grab.
Back to our book - question then becomes is Elif Shafak using and strengthening an old story that was meant to show weakness of character as a salacious bit to add to her story? What affect did reading the story of the drunken ride through town have while you were reading that chapter? Was the chapter important to the story? Was the chapter describing the Sultan's wild disregard for the quiet town his father promoted or, the respect for man and animal to sleep or, the respect for a man on the street rather than get him drunk or, was all that an analogy to something we overlooked?
Was Elif Shafak showing us through this chapter the beginning of the end? Was the weakness in leadership and how it affected the everyday folks in the Ottoman Empire showing us how they are sliding from the zenith that was Suleiman the Magnificent or was it a cheap shot prolonging the story that Selim II was a sot?
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Barb, I can only say, yes, yes, yes and more yeses to your questions in your post. But like those in this story that have been used for greed, power, positioning, as those in what has been happening in our world today, the ones who are being used, also have a culpability in allowing themselves to be used. Each person has their own personal agenda as well. As we go into the next section of the book, it is clear, one used, is also one gaining something, for their own personal gain.
We would all be a fool if we thought these organized violent, hate filled protesters are of their own making. It takes much power, money and quick methods to accomplish this. We know who is behind them, and it sure aint Geppetto the puppet master, pardon my slang. Just like celebrities keeping quiet while Weinstein molested and raped young upcoming actors and actresses, there is a silence in government allowing women, children, organizations and universities, to be used for their maliciousness in their efforts to gain power.
This reminds me of when Jahan confronted Sinan about why he stays silent:
pg. 328 "Are we not going to investigate who did this?" "What can be done? I cannot interrogate every man on the site. If the workers suspect I don't trust them, they'll lose their will to work." Uneasiness cam over Jahan. He, on the contrary, believed that Sinan should question everyone until the culprit was found. He said, in a voice he didn't know was capable of, "Michelangelo mourned his assistant like his son. Whereas you . . .don't even care for us. Glass, wood, marble, metal . . . Are we not like these in your eyes, mere instruments in your construction?" Into the silence Sinan said, slowly, "That's not true." But Jahan was no longer listening.
Jahan is starting to see for himself what really matters to Sinan, and others. He is naive in thinking that people are put before power. Sinan himself seeks the power to create and build the best buildings in the world. At some point in life we all come to realize the dark truth, at times, greed and power can outweigh truth and justice. Jahan is realizing, Sinan, the man he has come to love as a father figure, strives approval from, the man he sees as noble, who has indeed done acts of humanity for not only him, but others, is also a man who chooses to sit silent, in order for him to continue his goals.
Just in today's world in the past year, look at the men who have fallen from grace due to allegations of sexual misconduct, and all those who were willing to remain silent because it would hurt their own careers. Our mentors are our mentors, until they are not.
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There are many parts as we wind down that I asked myself, what is this author trying to show us, teach us, enlighten us with? Why this or that? I can elaborate more once we begin discussing the last section. But for now, what I don't want to fail to mention and consider is this:
pg. 307 Takiyuddin was writing a treatise on heavenly beings, a book called a zij. Therein he registered the positions and distances and motions of the sun and the moon and the stars and the celestial bodies. This would take him years, he explained, but when finished it would be a guide in perpetuity.
'A zij is a map,' he explained. "A map of the divine creation.' Long ago an infidel sage by the name Aristo__a man who had taught the great Askander everything he knew__held that the earth was at the centre of the universe and that it was peacefully at rest, unlike other celestial bodies. He left it to astronomers to find the sum of the spheres that rotated around it, the cumulative number of the many domes that moved above their heads.
pg. 309 A few steps into this walk Jahan felt an urge to turn back and look. Something strange happened then. Of the two tall buildings that formed the observatory, not a single thing could be seen__not even a flickering candle from the windows or a glow from the instrument on the upper terrace. So fully had its contours sunk into the sea of grey that in that moment it felt like the observatory had never existed and that everything said and done under its roof had been nothing more than prints in the sand.
Reading these paragraphs made me think of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible. When Lot's wife looked back to see the city of Sodom burning, and she was turned to a pillar of salt.
Jahan is asked by Sinan to go and try to save as many books as possible before the demolish of the Observatory. He is able to save 489 books, and the zij was not one of them.
pg. 320 Only when Jahan returned to his room and put his head on his mattress and managed to calm his breathing did he realize that he had not, in his haste, remembered to look for Takiyuddin's zij. In the end the court astronomer had not been able to stave off what he most despised. Knowledge and wisdom had to be cumulative, an uninterrupted flow from one generation to the next; and yet the young astronomers who would come after him would have to start from the beginning all over again.
Why or what purpose was this used in this story?
My only take so far, is that the author wanted to show, how even though we have the most brilliant men in the world, be is astronomers, architects, rulers, theologians, etc., etc., there are times that God wants us to rely on Him, rather than books, maps, or others. As in the Bible the first words written are....
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created heaven and earth....
I must go to get ready to teach my CCD class tonight. This book and discussion sure has gone all over the place, and I am really enjoying it.
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Wow I like your thinking and would not have thought through as deeply so, of course you can see evidence staring at us in the story of Sinan's sitting quietly - interesting when I read that there was a slight twinge but quickly over-ruled it - after all, in my mind he was supposed to be the good guy - I do that, I keep looking in life for folks to be a good guy - my downfall - over and over and over - ah so... maybe that is my purpose in life to finally realize there is no good guy that I can elevate as a hero, as a savior - the best of hero's will take care of their own passions and needs first - if not aggressively then silently - folks cannot and will not fall on their sword for every injustice.
hmmm that also then says a lot about my willingness to risk - Well there is that however in these discussions we can run folks off if we come down on one side of a political argument over another - I saw whole discussions ruined by that tactic when we were SeniorLearn.
However, ah yes the however- your view sure helps me understand better why I thought the whole shenanigans was just that - I could not imagine hanging out incompletely washed much less rinsed laundry on national TV to satisfy the usual life time reactions to sexual assault. I felt like hiding and could only look at the news out of the corner of my eye - now it makes sense - "the ones who are being used, also have a culpability in allowing themselves to be used. Each person has their own personal agenda as well."
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Wow, I missed a lot of good conversations while traveling, but also finished the book on the plane. I'm more and more impressed with it, and will post tomorrow on some of my thoughts--have been catching up and jet-lagged today.
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I am soooo glad to hear from you Pat - you have no idea - and yes for selfish reasons - looks like Bellamarie finished the book, Jonathan finished the book and now you are saying you finished the book and I took it upon my self to finish the book tonight - Wow - wow! wow! wow!
OK I am thinking there is a lot to say - we pretty much exhausted the section called The Dome but there are always bits we can further - and yes, that word 'however' - however, knowing what we know after finishing the book it puts a twist on the section called The Dome - and so tomorrow, Thursday, October 11, let's just open this up and talk about not only this last section After the Master but the entire book -
There are bits that more can be said about and other bits that make sense after knowing the entire story - I did not want to suggest this while you were out of town Pat and then for you to come home and go 'What?' Please Pat share the thoughts you planned on posting. What a story...!
I may not get in here till tomorrow afternoon - please, just share all the pieces and wonderful quotes and any message that you are impressed with hearing and what the themes are and and and - Yes, this book turned out to be a surprise and a winner...
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Pat sounds like except for jet lag you had a safe trip - looks like you are home just in time for rain rain rain - although the winds etc. look like they will be further inland - that must be quite a shock to your system going back and forth - glad you are home safe and sound although, ;) which is your home???
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Sexual assault is a crime. Rightly so. What a pity that it should be dragged through the political mire. It was such fun when I was young. I always found willing, even eager partners. I was seduced at five. She was four, and wanted to compare notes. Ten years later my teacher got a crush on me. Another ten years and I found myself besotted like Jahan. I found her in the Abrams publication, Art Treasures of the Louvre. An elegant French beauty of the 18c. It took another couple of years to get to Paris and the Louvre. I stood transfixed until I was tapped on the shoulder and told the museum was closing. I'm still thrilled to look at her picture. Those loving eyes and cherry lips....
And now our story gets real interesting.
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/architect/architect_cvr.jpg) |
Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three SultansDiscussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256
- Sunday October 7....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Thursday October 11................After the Master
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Helpful Links for reading and watching “People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.” - Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque) (https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/early-europe-and-colonial-americas/ap-art-islamic-world-medieval/a/mosque-edirne)
- A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNgc02-jvE)
- 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNpcQEGw3S4)
- Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEDWaBmKpfY)
- Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3IYqgkrrJ0)
- Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYqB57PVWQE)
- Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EQtaQYpzTw)
- Janissaries (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkHhLXmDox8)
- Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan (https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/06/19/facts-ottoman-janissaries/)
- Mimar Sinan (2 min) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8YrijHoDmw)
- Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments (http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sinan.htm)
- Elif Safak, author (http://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home/)
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Pat- glad you are home safe and sound although, ;) which is your home???
Good question, Barb, they both feel like home to me, but I'm still voting and paying taxes in Maryland. I won't switch that until I get my house cleared out and sold.
The fallout from Michael is not expected to be bad here--just some heavy bursts of rain.
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Jahan finally loses his beloved-from-afar, the Princess Mihrimah. She sends for him, and he is with her at the end, though asleep at the final moment. He sees the relationship clearly. p 322:
That was where he had been all this time--somewhere on the edge of her existence.
He kisses her for the first time, and she says "You and your white elephant...have brought joy into my life"
She says "When I am not around you may hear things about me that you might not like"...."remember, behind everything there is a reason."
Think of the life she has had. Although always loved, she always had second place to her brothers. Her mother didn't give her loving care; she got that only from her nurse, who they kept trying to take away from her. She had no say over her personal life, was married at a young age to a man she abhorred, and at least for a while spent all her days weeping. She has always had to be her own defense, and protect herself by whatever means she could find. It's hardly surprising she ended up a much-feared, bitter woman.
Indeed, there is a reason.
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PatH., Glad you are safely back home. Can't wait to hear your take on the book.
Barb, Good to know we can begin discussing After the Master section.
Jonathan, Seduced at five years old! Oh my! It makes me think of when I had my day care and I walked into the living room, my four year old grandson, and the four year old Gracie were coming out of my front closet, with all the rest of the kids laughing. I asked what is so funny, and it appears Gracie had a bit of a crush on Zak, and wanted to kiss him in the closet, after the egging on of the older kids. lolol Seems little girls are a bit more assertive than boys. lol
Okay.... on to the rest of the book. I have to say there were parts of the ending section that really irritated me.
How in heavens name does a Chief Royal Architect's will get read without ALL parties present? How does one manage to destroy BOTH copies of the will that is in two different places? The whole will had me screaming... foul play!!! This is a brilliant author, I have admired Shafak's amazing integration of factual history blended in with fiction to give us this wonderful story, but for me.... she fell short on the ending.
The first part of this section is all about death, Sinan, Nikola, Sangram, Simeon, Chota and many others died due to the curse.
pg. 344 "You mean they . . . opened the will?" Sangram the son looked at Jahan with unmistakable pity. "They did. Your master wished him (Davud) to be his successor, it appears." "Well . . . that's good," Jahan, feeling dizzy, as though a precipice had opened up under his feet and he was falling, falling fast.
Dizzy indeed!!! I could not believe my eyes, as I am sure Jahan could not believe his ears, on this news. We all know that Jahan was Sinan's favorite apprentice. Immediately I suspected foul play.
pg. 348 She (Sancha) opened her bag, showed him the carved box Sinan had made for her. Next to it were a dozen scrolls and a necklace of some worth. "I'm taking these. Master bequeathed them to me."
How could Jahan have not know at this point something was wrong? Did he honestly doubt his place in Sinan's heart so much so, that he would not wonder why Sinan left nothing to him? His jealousy of Davud got the better of his common sense. It would only seem logical, to question the will. Seeing Davud with his very own book he had given to Sinan, should he not have known Sinan would never have wanted anyone else to have that book than he himself, or any of the other 489 books Jahan risked his life to save?
pg. 354 Slowly, he walked towards the bookshelves in the corner. Inhaling the fragrance of ink, vellum, paper and time, he ran his fingers along the spines. He saw On War against the Turk by this strange monk named Luther and The Book of the Governor that an Englishman called Elyot had dedicated to his king. He found treatises from the library of King Matthias of Hungary. And there, among the leather tomes, some thick, some thin, was Dante's La Divina Commedia. The gift he had received from Simeon the bookseller and, after reading it again and again, he had given to his master. His hands trembling, he pulled it out, feeling the familiar heft of it, and he glanced through the pages. There was no doubt; it was his copy. Clearly, Davud had taken possession of Master Sinan's collection.
pg. 355 As they were parting, Davud saw his guest to the door. Up this close, Jahan caught a scent on his friend's clothes __raw and leafy and strangely familiar __one that dissolved so fast in the night breeze that he didn't have time to remember when or where he might have smelled it before.
Then he comes across the scrolls and finds the design of the Selimiye Mosque with different markings on it and considers Sinan made those changes. Yet the date, 18 April 1573 catches his eye, but Davud enters the room and he puts it back.
Is Jahan really this naive, to not suspect something is wrong?
So much more to discuss, but I have to stop here for now.
PatH., I see we were posting at the same time. Glad to hear you are only expecting rain from the fallout of Michael.
Yes, the Princess had her reasons, but do the ends justify the means? What good outcome came of her actions? Sabotaging the building sites cost lives. So she had to deal with her inconveniences in life, not to make light of them, but, at least she was able to live until her natural time came. She lived in a beautiful palace, had her beautiful children, ate cavier, and was able to come and go as she pleased. I for one can not excuse her, or feel sorry for her, because of these reasons. I do like your assessment of Princess Mihrimah, a "bitter" woman. Beauty on the outside, can never camouflage the ugly on the inside.
I think this author used this cliche' a bit too much, to excuse bad actions, and to gain sympathy from the reader.
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What a beautiful parable opens this section - poetic, gentle I had to read it several times.
There was a tree in Paradise unlike any on earth. Its branches were translucent, its roots absorbed milk instead of water, and its trunk glittered as if ice-bound, though when on got close to it, it was not cold, not cold at all. Every leaf of this tree was marked with the name of a human being. Once a year, during the month of Shaban, (Shaban is the 2nd month of worship before Ramadan) on the night between the fourteenth and fifteenth day, all the angles gathered around it, forming a circle. In unison, they flapped their wings. Thus they raised a powerful wind that shook the branches. Gradually, some of the leaves fell off. Sometimes it took a leaf quite a while to drop down. At other times, the descent was as quick as the blink of an eye. The moment a leaf reached the ground the person whose name was written on it breathed his last. this was why the wise abdn the learned would never step on a dry leaf, lest it bore the soul of someone somewhere.
I do not think I can look at Autumn leaves the same way ever again.
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Yes Pat - think of her life - oh dear...
Although always loved, she always had second place to her brothers. Her mother didn't give her loving care; she got that only from her nurse, who they kept trying to take away from her. She had no say over her personal life, was married at a young age to a man she abhorred, and at least for a while spent all her days weeping. She has always had to be her own defense, and protect herself by whatever means she could find. It's hardly surprising she ended up a much-feared, bitter woman.
Reminded me of all those movies and stories of the poor little rich girls before the topic showed how children raised with all the toys and good schools as a result of, usually the father's work schedule and devotion to his amassing money - What was that Greek parable of the king, something everything he touched turned to gold including his daughter... then later after WWII various female movie stars were included for having ignored or abandoned their children to nurses, Swiss schools, cars, teen pool parties, and when young, elaborate birthday parties with the excuse their mother's job took first preference when all these kids wanted was some time and attention from their parents.
Here we had the social mores of the time, where girls were 'less-than' therefore, could not have the attention of their father's regardless, how much a father loved the daughter and if the mother was trying to keep her position, with all those wives and concubines, she had little time for a daughter knowing full well, in their adulthood a daughter could not further the interests and well being of either parent. In a society where 'off with their heads' was real, a fight for position mattered. And then daughters were merely bargaining chips if that - they had no say-so over who or when they married and marry they must. That attitude about who daughters married was with us right up until the 1960s. Wasn't it Princes Margaret who could not marry her love because he was a divorced man.
Remember when it was a novelty song - 'Love and Marriage go together like a horse and carriage- ya can't have one without the other...' - no such song today, so that at last women have more agency over themselves and who they marry.
If you had a head on your shoulders, with the education to use your head, that must have been a very lonely and heartbreaking existence for any child in a powerful family where wealth and the control of what brings the wealth are most important over showing love for each other. Painful for so many.
Yes, Bellamarie that is what hit me also - how there was no room for trust, loyalty or a loving relationship among all the personal vendettas, cruelties and power grabbing - it appears Jahan's only true friends were those cast aside by society, the Gypsies.
Bellamarie my take on the reading of the will was there was really no court system - the only law was Shari and whatever the Sultan decided or whatever a someone with some power could make happen within their authority. Here is the copy of how to write and act on a will within Islamic law
https://www.islam101.com/sociology/wills.htm
Some of it includes English law which would not have been part of life in the sixteenth century - I think that last paragraph is probably what was 'conveniently' dis-regarded.
My thinking is, as today we know there are fake wills and the courts are involved - here it seems to me the will was grabbed and acted upon by those with malice in their hearts. Where or when the will was read could have been in the middle of the night but how could Jahan protest - there was no court system - plus it sounded to me like until he found the undelivered notes written to him by Sinan while he was in the dungeon he was never sure of Sinan's love - he too thought Sinan was all about and only all about doing whatever it took to build and so in keeping with his loving nature he kept on thinking the best but, hearing that he was not chosen he knee jerked back to how he felt abandoned while in the dungeon. Little by little he puts it together.
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As to Mihrimah's love or lack of love - to me that is the unanswered question - we know she said, "When I am not around you may hear things about me that you might not like"...."remember, behind everything there is a reason."
I'm wondering, can we depend on her, old an bitter nurse, for the truth? A women who believed the Sultan "burned" for her when all the stories we read say the Sultan was completely enthralled by Mihrimah's mother, the one we in the west call Roxelana - With all her insight she did not guess that Yusuf was a woman or that Yusuf loved Sinan and yet, Hesna Khatun, is supposed to know all the inner secrets of Mihrimah - granted she would know most of Mihrimah's feelings but then, Mihrimah is aware there will be things said about her after she is gone - who knows what secrets she held in her heart - I'm not sure she would 'use' Jahan and then also look him in they eye when he was in the tree or have him by her side as she lay dying.
As to Hesna Khatun- anyone in her position that mentally had to look at Jahan with "a mixture of comtempt and disguest, saying aloud, 'Who the hell were you? An animal-tamer" A mouse reaching for a mountain! A servant of the Sultan in love with the Sultan's only daughter!" in my mind has a problem - she does not see any room for unrequited love - she wants to hurt Jahan - if she did not she would not have reduced him in her mind to an animal-tamer but would have given him some respect as an architect.
And then she proceeds to call him a simpleton, claiming Mihrimah called him, in the worst way, a "fool" which Mihrimah could easily have said in admiration that he was so innocent to be easily fooled. Wow and then Hesna with a quivering chin, in fury say "may your suffer from my scourge, Architect." From MY scourge - which says to me she was being as hurtful as she could to tear down all Jahan's loves - an old lady who had nothing from her life of giving love, both real and imagined within the palace but, a building left to her that she did not occupy and this lonely cast aside life with no husband or children. This is some bitter vengeful woman - but then, she, without wanting to, helps Jahan get past his all consuming love that later he does learn Sinan did love him but, he never has closure if Mihrimah loved him or not.
Jahan is in a den of snakes with his only ladder out, the Gypsies - just the story of the supposedly dead woman - Jahan believed she was dead and it was the Gypsies who let him know there was no loss of life. Balaban is the one who stayed behind to help when Jahan was in the dungeon, he and his people help Jahan at every turn - as to Jahan gradually finding out what was really happening - seems to be the story is told as a mystery unfolding as he follows a trail of hints. Using his curiosity and his desire for truth born out during a dangerous search. A lessor man would not have continued much less, come back after escaping to seek answers.
Regardless, if he was a pawn or not, in the palace games of intrigue, all through, I see him holding onto his viewpoint of a glass half full and is finally rewarded as a very old man back in India. I love that his desire to see the best is rewarded with a loving wife and child long after most men have passed on.
He to me is the symbol that Sancha remembered, said by Sinan to describe the dome - "We should raise domes that remind people there is a God and that He is not a God of revenge and hell but of mercy and love." That is how I see Jahan - a fool if you will, for mercy and love. But then he was caught as was Mihrimah and as was Hesna Khatun - none of them had the power to confront the wrongs - they were trapped in this system - the only ones free to see reality and share brotherhood were the Gypsies who were outcasts to the system.
I wondered at the significance of the stuffed cat's eyes - one sapphire and one emerald.
With all the intrigue and secrets Jahan indures I thought it interesting that out of love for Chota he creates a hoax giving the elephant a status of sainthood - seems for love we will do anything as some will do anything out of revenge. She shows both sides in her story.
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It seemed to me the author got away from any reality after Chota died. I felt like I fell into a Harry Potter and the Sorcerer book.
pg. 358 He's a beast," said the Chief White Enuch. "A regal beast." More astonished than annoyed at this breach of manners, the Chief White Enuch said, "Enough folly. Make your farewells. The French emissary is going to dissect him.' "It's the Sultan's wish."
pg. 359 Miserable, mournful, he reached the residence and there he delivered the elephant's body to the ambassador like a sacrificial lamb to the butcher.
Then the Chief White Enuch takes Jahan to the hamon of sorrows, to help him forget. Jahan is preplexed.
pg. 361 Jahan blinked, remembering the name from a moment in time so distant it might have been from a life not his own. "We go there and we forget. Everything. Do you understand? Perplexed as he was, Jahan said he did.
Come on....how could Jahan not remember the place he lost his virginity? I mean it's not like he is drugged.
pg. 361 The Chief White Enuch knocked three times with his ring, waited, then tapped twice with bare hands. "Hyacinth?" said a voice behind the door. "Hyacinth!" repeated the Chief White Enuch.
For one stunned moment Jahan couldn't breathe. He had an awful suspicion the eunuch knew the nickname his mother had given him as a boy. Unnnerved, he had no desire to go inside with this man, but the gate had already opened.
362. They were greeted inside by the shortest woman Jahan had ever come across. She laughed. "Never seen a dwarf? Or never seen a woman?
Then it all gets even stranger, when the woman looks like Mihrimah, they start popping opium, everyone leaves the room and the woman and Jahan start to get intimate and she says,
pg 364 "Call me Mihrimah," she said breathing heavily.
Jahan throws her off of him, she bumps her head and Zainab says, "She's dead," "You've killed the eunuch's mistress."
From here it gets even crazier! Jahan goes to Davud's for protection, then stops at the French Ambassador's to pay one last tribute to Chota before leaving Istanbul. Monsieur Breves gives him Chota's tusk. Jahan goes to Mihrimah Mosque and buries the tusk and gives him a headstone near a Judas tree. Then sees a goatherder and asks him to tend to Chota's tomb telling him it was a saint, named Chota Baba.
pg. 373 Slowly Jahan stood up, "I must go. Keep an ey on this grave. Make sure no one disrespects him. You are the guardian of the shrine of Chota Baba.
Instead of going in the direction Davud told him to, he sidetracks and comes to the inn he and Davud got robbed, learns that Davud is the one who actually took his drawings, journal and things and chopped them up.
Now he goes back to the city, breaks into Davud's, finds the letter Sinan had written to him when he was in the dungeon, and realizes Sinan had come to visit him after all. He finds the scrolls of the designs and sees the changes. Davud catches Jahan, and he realizes Davud and the Chief White Eunuch are accomplices. Jahan learns some hard truths here.
"Master loved you like a son." "I love him like a father. A father in the wrong. A great architect. But a coward. Never uttered a word against cruelty. Or injustice. Even when you were rotting in the dungeon he did not move a finger to!" "Have mercy. What could he have done? It was not in his power." "He could have said to the Sultan, let go of my apprentice my Lord, or else I'm not building for you." "Have you lost your mind? He'd have been put to death." "It'd been a decent end," Davud countered. "Instead he wrote you miserable letters."
"All he wanted to do was build. One project after another. But who will pray in those mosques? Will they be unwell or hungry? Didn't matter. Every year, work, work. Where do the resources come from? Another war. Another slaughter. Did he mind? He didn't care for anything else." "That's not true!" "Every colossal mosque we built was raised thanks to the revenues from another conquest. On their way to the battleground the army would raze villages to the ground, kill more of my people. Our master never cared for these sorrows. He refused to see that, without bloodshed elsewhere, there would be no money, and without money there would be no building in the capital."
"There are two kinds of men, this I have learned. Those who covet happiness. Those who seek justice. You long for a happy life, whereas I long for adalet. We shan't agree.
Jahan gets beaten up and thrown into some dark dungeon and is saved by none other than.... the gypsies! He gets free and goes to see Hesna Khatun searching for truth. Well he got it.
pg. 400 "You used Davud but he got out of control. He would not listen to you any more." Pulling her cat closer, she sat still as a stone. "Why did you do it? For riches? For mightiness? Who bribed you? Was it the Italians? Did they want to stop my master?" "Oh shut up . . . What nonsense," Hesna Khatum said. "You want to know the truth? Hear me out.
This was a Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise moment, straight out of the movie, A Few Good Men, when Jack Nicholson says, "You want the truth?
Col. Jessup: You want answers?
Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to.
Col. Jessep: You want answers?
Kaffee: I WANT THE TRUTH!
Col. Jessup: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
[pauses]
Col. Jessup: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!
"You think I could have done it without the consent of your Princess?" "You are lying. Mihrimah is dead. She can't defend herself,' Jahan said. "How dare you blame her? I thought you loved her." "I loved her more than anyone. More than anything. That's why I did as she told me and never asked why." "Liar!" "We believe in what we choose to believe," she rasped. "Why would Mihrimah wish to weaken my master?" "She had nothing against your master. Lots against her own father." "Sultan Suleiman?"
pg. 401 "She was devastated. Torn between her love for her father and her hatred for him. She loathed him. She adored him. My confused child. "Mihrimah was richer than the treasury. None stronger than her. But her heart was broken.
"Mihrimah knew she could never triumph over her father, and she had no intention of doing so. All she wanted was to make things more difficult for him. The mosque your master was building was going to immortalize Sultan Suleiman and show his grandeur to posterity. We decided to slow you down. It was a little revenge." "And you needed an apprentice to be your pawn," said Jahan. "We considered each of you. Nikola was timid. Yusuf we couldn't approach; like a clam, he wouldn't open up. You, we kept aside. Davud was the best. Angry, ambitious."
This is where I feel no matter how the Princess felt unloved, she had no right to put the men's lives in danger who were working on those buildings. Her revenge, cost others their lives.
pg. 402 Jahan said, "Did she ever love me?" "Why do you ask such a stupid thing?" "I need to know if that, too was a lie. For years I felt guilty if I desired another woman."
"She liked you, like a pet, like a gown. Like the lokum she tasted. But you'd get bored if you ate it every day. Nay, she never loved you." "Fool," she whispered. "My beautiful fool. That's what she called you. That's why she adored you so. But would you call that love?"
And to end the calamity of horrors:
pg. 403 'How old are you dada? you must be way over a hundred. Is it true you were damned with eternal life?" Hesna Khatun was about to laugh when a dry cough stopped her midway. "I . . . wasn't the only one." "What do you mean? Jahan asked in panic. But even as the words left him he knew the answer. "Think, which artisan, which man of great ambitions wouldn't want to live for as long as I have?" Jahan shook his head. "If you are referring to my master, he was an exemplary man. Nothing to do with a with like you." "At what age did he die?" Her cackle turned into a cough.
Before she could catch her breath, Jahan snatched the stuffed animal from her hands and hurled it into the fire. Cardamom's fur was set ablaze, the gems glowing amid the flames. "Don't," she screamed too late, her voice splintered. "Let the dead rest in peace, dada." As she watched the burning cat, Hesna Khatun's chin quivered with fury. She said, "May you suffer from my scourge, Architect." "May you beg God the Almighty, down on your knees, to be taken, for it is enough . . . it is too much. May He hear you pleading . . . may He see your agony and pity you, oh, poor apprentice of Sinan, but still . . . still may He not let you die."
Phew! Just in time for Halloween, we are given this magnificent scary, demonic, ghastly truth.
And like in all fairytales.... Jahan lives happily ever after, with a wife, a son he loved as if he were his own, named him Sinan Joseph Mutamid. Jahan was nominated by the palace as Chief Royal Architect for the Illuminated Tomb -Rauza-i Munavvara, better known as the Taj Mahal.
If I have to take away anything from this story, I would say it's that all people have reasons for doing what they do. Their reasons may be justifiable to their own thinking, but in all honesty, is it out of pure selfishness, greed or need for power? Jahan was a hero, many times over, he was naive, innocent to a fault, loyal, caring and a wonderful animal trainer/friend for Chota, along with being a brilliant master architect. But I have to agree with the Princess, when she called him . . . "My beautiful fool."
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Love it Bellamarie - especially referring to Tom Cruise - what a hoot - you made it sound like an old Saturday morning western or Charlie Chan movie - how about one of Shakespeare's comedies, for sure not one of his heroic plays about kings and battles - and so, as in Harry Potter, the plot thickens - oh oh oh just too perfect Bellamarie as you chronological the events - well it is a wind up for sure - Is this a myth, a fairytale - a story that could have happened - who knows - however, it does offer a lot of bits that got us thinking and in this last section there are a couple of wing dingers -
Going back and re-reading those first pages of this section, it makes sense, Sinan's last words to the group - "It all must have happened for a reason. One must think of the reason, not hate the person."
On page 346 when Jahan watches the hooded falcons go by and Sancha is weeping, the sentence to me is emblematic of the entire Ottoman system in Istanbul. "A lad who was a girl, a mute with the gift of speech, a concubine yet and architect, she had lived a life of lies and layers - no less than Jahan."
They were all living a life of lies and layers - Mihrimah, Hesna Khatum, Davud, certainly the Chief White Eunuch that was not a Eunuch, concubines that were not dead, a Sultan who lead through proxy and a Sultan, who in death is shown as the commander and chief riding on an elephant - it is all smoke and mirrors with so much casual death and revenge - talk about what we used to call a 'den of inequity' -
The story sure is in keeping with so many royal households - certainly it can parallel Henry and his six wives with all the intrigue surrounding Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell - then when you read the accounts of some of the Popes, the Curia and the Cardinals, especially during the time of the Medici's - they all operated with lies and layers.
And this - whow - what do you think - Love was not needed. Better without it. Love only brought pain.
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Barb, thank you for pointing this out, perfect!!
"A lad who was a girl, a mute with the gift of speech, a concubine yet and architect, she had lived a life of lies and layers - no less than Jahan."
Indeed, they all were living their lives for what ever reasons they had, they chose the life they led. Circumstances led some in directions they would never have gone on their own. Situations changed their lives mostly for the better, although some could not let go of their envy, revenge, resentment, wanting what could never be, prevented them from being able to appreciate what they had in front of them.
Elif Shafak is a magnificent writer, who in this book brought excitement, drama, knowledge, thought provoking information about Istanbul, the Ottoman era, and the beauty of architecture.
I would never have read this book outside this book club. As always, everyone who contributed to this discussion made the book even more enjoyable for me. I can't wait to hear Jonathan's thoughts about the last section. PatH., hope to hear from you as well, you always have such interesting thoughts that help me see things in different perspectives. Those who lurked, or began and could not continue for what ever reasons, please feel free to give us your thoughts as well.
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"What is truth?" could be the motto for much of the last section of the book. It certainly shifts around a lot, as we uncover the layers of lies, and I don't believe we have it all straight even now. That's especially true of Hesna Khatun's story. She has her own agenda, she's vengeful and scheming, a bit crazy, and very jealous of anyone else who might chip away at Mihrimah's affection for her. Her story can't be trusted. Certainly Mihrimah must have started the campaign against the Sultan through Sinan, but I'm betting that the nursemaid was the main schemer once it got going, not just following orders. And I think she played down Mihrimah's affection for Jahan; she was jealous of any affection Mihrimah showed toward anyone else. I believe Mihrimah felt a genuine affection toward Jahan. It was short of romantic love, which she knew was impossible for them, but real all the same, something worth having.
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Pat that was my take on her as well - between her and Davud whow - quite a pair - Davud's back story did in my mind give him some cover but to go as far as he did - I don't know - beyond any revenge tactic I can imagine - and with all that Sinan did for him, never did soften his childhood trauma - but Hesna Khatun was something else again - trying to picture in my mind's eye this story as a movie and cannot even think what actress could play that scene - end of her life and to spend the time she had left being that hysterically bitter and down right mean - wow.
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An interesting point about Davud: on his deathbed, Sinan says he has discovered the identity of the saboteur. But he doesn't reveal who. "It all must have happened for a reason. One must think of the reason, not hate the person." And the reasons for Davud's bitterness make his treachery understandable, though not justifiable. Presumably Sinan would have behaved differently if he had realized Davud was capable of the massive treachery of bypassing his will, stealing the place meant for Jahan, plus making off with all Sinan's possessions.
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I guess Pat it goes back to Davud saying - "There are two kinds of men, this I have learned. Those who covet happiness. those who seek justice. You long for a happy life, whereas I long for adalet. We shan't agree."
Interesting - I had a good friend who was always railing about something and her whole life was about Justice - she had cards made with various quotes from the Bible about justice - AND she was always on the edge of anger - I mostly listened but could not get myself riled up and some of her issues were in my mind misunderstanding history that foolish me would try to enlighten her as if logic and education can affect someone's feelings - but what I see in Davud is more than revenge but envy for the 'things' and life that was Sinan's - I think in some ways he thought he was emulating Sinan when he opened his home and arms to Jahan -
I think back again on my friend and in many ways we shared a similar history and yet, we each handled it differently - no right or wrong I guess but then, in his anger the way Davud took advantage of Jahan was one thing but to see him beaten and left to maybe even die was quite another. I guess in that he owns upmanship or bragging rights over Hesna Khatun, who was emotionally and verbally abusive but did not physically abuse with a risk of death.
Shafak did a good job of keeping the reader in the dark through this entire book as to the culprit for harm in Jahan's life.
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Barb
Shafak did a good job of keeping the reader in the dark through this entire book as to the culprit for harm in Jahan's life.
Yes, she did. She's a good storyteller, isn't she. And I had never heard of her until you suggested reading this book.
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And for the life of me I cannot remember where I found the book - probably some email with book suggestions - although looking for a book we had some qualification and so maybe when I entered them in Google this came up because I only remember the other was something Behemoth about the history of factories - oh yes and another was the early history of Ireland - we had about 6 but like you I had never heard of her and it appears she has written several and is a well known author in Turkey.
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PatH., I 100% agree with your posts. You could not trust "the witch" as Jahan referred to Hesna Khatuntell, to tell him the truth. She thought of Mihrimah as her own daughter. She hated Jahan, and I ask myself why? Because she knew Mihrimah indeed have affection for Jahan. I did not see it as being, "in love"with him, but because she had any affection for him made Hesna Khatun jealous and furious.
Barb, I have to say that I can honestly understand Davud's reasoning so much more, than Mihrimah's, for sabotaging the sites. It was not only his childhood and family that was destroyed, but as he stated to Jahan, it continued with the soldiers razing the villages of his people, on their way to war in present time. This is why he refused to continue the constant building, now that he is the Chief Royal Architect. I seriously have to respect his thinking on this.
I agree, this author did an excellent job in keeping the mystery of who was involved in the sabotage til the very end. But then again, she had us all over the place with Jahan's escapades, how could we even concentrate on anything else?
Yes, I agree, had Sinan had the time to do something differently about his will, after having the knowledge of Davud's involvement, I think he may have made it public, that Jahan was his choice to take his place. But then it also makes me wonder if it would have made a difference. As Davud pointed out, Sinan never spoke up against injustice. He could have told Jahan to alert him before dying, and yet he stayed silent in revealing the culprits.
I think Davud was hoping he and Jahnan could be close, he the Chief Royal Architect and Jahan his #1 apprentice. He saw Jahan as naive, weak, and not ambitious enough to hold the place of Sinan, because even though he loved Sinan, Davud found him weak as well. Davud saw this opportunity to right some wrongs, by taking Sinan's place. He would have assumed Jahan would have continued on the same path as Sinan, with wars to keep building, which would mean more of Davud's people being killed.
I just may have nightmares of "the witch" Hesna Khatun, and that dead stuffed cat, Cardamom's fur set ablaze, the gems glowing amid the flames. ;D ;D
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Yes, Bellamarie I can see how the childhood experience Davud endured marked him for life - as to using that smoldering hate and resentment to wound Jahan and to sabotage to the point of killing others - hmm - but then it would take a mature thinking brain to overcome the instinctive feelings of powerlessness he experienced as a child that he so wanted to repair with his version of justice.
Sort of an eye for and eye kind of behavior - Using that as an analogy for today and recently learning how war is tied to debt and bankers and a shift in the power base that is not seen by those engaged in a war, I'm not seeing an end of war for those who burn for justice in order to 'right' their past - war is not about righting justice - war is about money and the power shift because of debt.
The issue over justice is difficult with thoughts on both sides of the issue - The story of Davud does remind us that for every war there are the seeds of hate, resentment or revenge - then, there are those Like Mandela, who can get past what happened or at least not act on their feelings of hate, resentment with vengeful behavior.
There are those, whose cry for justice flames their own anger as they touch the anger of others - and then there are those who make a positive difference after their painful experience like, St. John of the Cross, imprisoned by his carmalite brothers and tortured horribly for years or, Saint Maria Goretti, forgave the young man who stabbed her fourteen times because she would not consent to his advances or, St. Raymond, taken from his mother's womb by a soldier after she was killed by the opposing army or, the number of pregnant woman, tried and hanged by the courts of the Spanish Inquisition and while the body still hung by the neck, infants were seen to fall free of the body.
Atrocities happen - as to Davud's story, it shows us how a no war policy means no more money for large initiatives that hire many workers which meant Davud's skills were dimmed, used only for small projects - I am remembering that many bemoaned Bush 43's answer to unemployment was to wage war and 9/11 provided the excuse. My take reading this is, Davud, as understandable because of his history, shot himself in the foot by seeking the justice that really never satisfies pain.
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I can sympathize with Davud until he fell into the common trap--caught in his plotting, he became more and more evil, did worse and worse things, and turned more and more to the luxury of his stolen position.
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But speaking of war, there was one battle I watched for, wondering if we would see it, and we do:
p 272: As they were making ready to journey to Adrianople, a naval battle between the Ottoman and Christian forces was under way in the Gulf of Corinth near Lepanto.
p 273 But dark news welcomed them at the city gates of Adrianople. The entire Ottoman fleet had been lost in a humiliating, harrowing defeat. If kiyamet had another name it would have been Lepanto. Hundreds were drowned, killed, enslaved.
This was a turning point in the attempted expansion of the Ottoman Empire, and in the style of naval warfare, but it also is a link to history that's more familiar to us. One of the Spanish soldiers in the Christian fleet was Cervantes. He was badly wounded, ending up with an almost useless left arm. Later on he was captured by Ottoman pirates, and spent 5 years as a prisoner in Algiers. Fortunately, he still had a good right arm to write Don Quijote with later after he was freed.
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PatH., How interesting, you were able to look and find these historical facts. And Cervantes being captured by pirates, later writing the great novel Don Quixote, with only one good arm. I learned something new!
I sense Mihrimah, Hesna Khatun, Davud, and all the other evil characters in this book, started out not as evil. They each have their own reasons for why, and what turned them to become evil. Each of them allowed the evil to possess them, to the point of not considering the harm they would bring to others, to avenge those they intended their evil acts upon. Davud felt there was justice, in no longer going to war to gain the currency to build big lavish buildings, because the human life currency was more valuable. As he pointed out to Jahan, "But who will pray in those mosques? Will they be unwell or hungry?" In Davud's mind, he saw himself putting his people's lives, above buildings of mortar. What good is having all these mosques, if there are no people to attend them, or the people are unfed and hungry? It's a bit of an quagmire, or even an oxymoron when you try to understand Davud's thinking. But I get it. I'm not saying I am in agreement with his actions, I am saying, I think I can understand his thinking, for doing what he did, and why he did. Maybe I see it differently then intended, but I see him stealing the position from Jahan not for power or money, he clearly wanted to save his people, and thought this would be the way to do it. He didn't care about building big mosques when it cost the lives of his people, and he certainly did not want more wars. In his mind he had his justice, whether we the reader agree with or not. It may not have satisfied his pain, we don't know, but it made him feel like he was at least doing something to save his people.
I remember my mother saying, "Evil is as evil does." My take on this is that one becomes evil once one commits acts of evil. If someone DOES evil things, then they themselves are inherently evil
e·vil
ˈēvəl
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and malevolent.
"his evil deeds"
synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious
These characters became evil, once they began doing their evil acts, regardless of their reasons.
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Interesting Pat on Cervantes - I have never looked into his life - had no idea he was in a navel war - I remember now reading how they lost that battle and how the city reacted - thanks Pat for enlightening us
On PBS tonight there were two shows back to back delving into a Shakespeare play - I could see bits of both plays in this story - betrayal and spreading lies in Much Ado About Nothing and then The Merchant of Venice that went into revenge and harmfully controlling others because of being damaged by society - the two programs bled into each other but there was a bit where when the actors were discussing a scene and said that to continue with the aggressive act contemplated was to put a halt to civility as if we were back being cave men -
So yes, I can see the pain that Davud attempted to expunge and the cause of the pain as he deduced but, to act as he did was no different than the Sultans, who to protect the throne from a fight for power killed off all contenders -
For me a bridge too far was Davud wearing the fine robes of his confiscated postion - stealing all of Sinan's personal belongings from books to carpet and installing his family in a fine home - none of it was to be his - he stole it all - plus the biggie in my way of thinking was, his plotting and arranging to kill those on the job because he deduced the money used to build came from the death of others -
Making the choice to be human is not easy - many of us have had to learn to live with the unforgivable - some of us cannot even forgive the unforgivable - but to loose our own humanity - sorry Bellamarie cannot go there.
Reminds me of recent events when a man's reputation was destroyed in public because of the belief of another - I can even see how the fear to women's freedom for agency over her own body is at stake and was visceral to those who thought, anyone who could possibly take that away needs to be destroyed - and so, I see Davud acting in that same manner based on this deep inward feeling of defilement that bypasses the intellect over the loss of his mother and family at a young age. He blamed war and the proceeds from war that creating these magnificent buildings. He probably saw the buildings as debasing the deaths of those killed during war - but then to take that next step and cause the death of others as well as, steal the position and possessions of those who believed in him desecrates all that is ethical.
I think where I could not tolerate, I could give some quarter if his actions were to other than those who supported, befriended and helped him be the capable man he became - thinking about it was that betrayal that for me was intolerable.
I do agree that his cause was just and understandable - but I recoil at his double-dealing and unscrupulous behavior.
hmm a thought - is this book showing us examples of opposites as in, "I have sought to concentrate on beauty and happiness, rather than on man's inhumanity to man.” Alma Woodsey Thomas.
The history of our march towards civilization is filled with man’s inhumanity to man. Yes, Davud's character questions for all of us, if all the slaughter is worth it because it is based on the philosophy that a mighty power has the inherent right to hunt and destroy any hapless minion that in its opinion could one day pose a threat to its own selfish interests. Problem - where on the continuum does that put Davud.
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Battle of Lepanto
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Battle_of_Lepanto_1571.jpg/1280px-Battle_of_Lepanto_1571.jpg)
On October 7, Catholics remember Our Lady of the Rosary.
The feast was actually instituted under another name: In 1571 Pope Pius V instituted “Our Lady of Victory” as an annual feast in thanksgiving for Mary’s patronage in the victory of the Holy League over the Muslim Turks in the Battle of Lepanto. Two years later, in 1573, Pope Gregory XIII changed the title of this feastday to “Feast of the Holy Rosary.” And in 1716, Pope Clement XI extended the feast to the whole of the Latin Rite, inserting it into the Roman Catholic calendar of saints, and assigning it to the first Sunday in October. In 1913, Pope Pius X changed the date to October 7, as part of his effort to restore celebration of the liturgy of the Sundays.
The Battle (of course written by the Victors)
On October 7, 1571, a patchwork fleet of Catholic ships primarily from Spain, Venice and Genoa, under the command of Don Juan of Austria, was at a distinct disadvantage. The much larger fleet of the Ottoman Empire—a force with 12,000 to 15,000 Christian slaves as rowers—was extending toward Europe.
However, St. Pope Pius V, realizing that the Muslim Turks had a decided material advantage, called upon all of Europe to pray the Rosary for victory. Christians gathered in villages and towns to pray as the sea battle raged; and at the hour of victory the pope—who was hundreds of miles away at the Vatican—is said to have gotten up from a meeting, walked over to an open window exclaiming “The Christian fleet is victorious!” and shed tears of joy and thanksgiving to God.
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Bellamarie your post gives a lot to think about - I am wondering now what is more important - taking care of people or building -
We have seen in the past 15 years or so what happens when a factory and the support businesses pull out of a town - we are now seeing what is happening as more factories and businesses are reopening - I'm thinking people in cities and towns cannot take care of themselves without work - so maybe those buildings were more important -
During construction they provided work and after they were built they still provided some work for maintenance but more, they provided a place for prayer that attracted lots of people who needed a place to stay and a meal or two so then the surrounding area had jobs -
As to the poor building illegal shelters cheek to jowl next to these mosques - the only reason folks flock to an area is to get on the jobs bandwagon - too many come and there are not enough jobs but without the mosque there would be no work at all.
And then to see war as the driving economic engine - it appears wars at that time were not waged on borrowed funds as they are today - for generations the world was run by physical labor - the booty for the victors was not only the wealth of the conquered land but the people were enslaved which meant, more free labor for the victor which translated into the slave labor and wealth to fight more wars to capture yet more free labor.
Hate this but it appears that war, with all its horrors is what promoted civilization. Need to find out more about the economics of war and how or if it was the engine to civilization.
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Barb,
Making the choice to be human is not easy - many of us have had to learn to live with the unforgivable - some of us cannot even forgive the unforgivable - but to loose our own humanity - sorry Bellamarie cannot go there.
I respect your thinking, even though it's not how I see it.
Let's just say Jahan became the Chief Royal Architect, as Sinan intended.....wars would continue to pay for the cost of lavish mosques to be built, more innocent people would continue to be razed in their villages, for the sake of building these lavish buildings. That is more acceptable than:
Davud wearing the fine robes of his confiscated postion - stealing all of Sinan's personal belongings from books to carpet and installing his family in a fine home - none of it was to be his - he stole it all - plus the biggie in my way of thinking was, his plotting and arranging to kill those on the job because he deduced the money used to build came from the death of others -
A man wearing robes, owning books, and refusing to go to war and kill his people, for the sake of money to build, is considered inhuman?
I'm sorry Barb, but we will have to agree to disagree. As I stated, I don't condone what Davud did, but I do understand his thinking. Hesna Khatun, and Mihramah were his accomplices, and their reasons were because her father neglected her as a child, and jealousy. Hmmmmm..... now THIS I can not comprehend. Davud's reasons were to Save lives....NOT buildings!
Barb, without the mosque there would be no work at all.
So continue to kill innocent people, to keep work for the people????
Interesting how killing innocent people, to continue to spur on the economy is acceptable, but sabotaging the building sites resulting in loss of innocent lives, stealing the Chief Royal Architect position and all of Sinan's possessions is not acceptable. Seems like a double standard. But then isn't that how life is? We have wars today that are contradictory to their reasons. Ah so..... I see us at an impasse, so to quote Rudyard Kipling:
"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." ... Rudyard Kipling, in his Barrack-room ballads, 1892:
Or better yet, to quote Davud: "There are two kinds of men, this I have learned. Those who covet happiness. those who seek justice. You long for a happy life, whereas I long for adalet. We shan't agree."
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One last thought before I leave for the day...... What a brilliant author we have in writing this book, and giving us these scenarios to debate, discuss and contemplate on. Isn't it what we face daily? Right vs wrong, good vs evil, justice vs injustice, war vs peace, rich vs poor, power, position, and all the reasons a person has, for why they make their choices in life.
Kudoos to Elif Shafak, just as she created in writing Davud, Mihramah, and Khatun plotting and planning strategies against others, she knew she would present to her readers these complex, thought provoking issues. Each person's own individual, personal, faith based, political ideals, would play into their own take on these characters behaviors. We focus on these three characters, yet I have to ask myself why weren't others behaviors just as appalling? The author points out the other characters flaws, and how their actions also could have cost lives, yet why are they less important when taking account and responsibility? Is it because she faded them into the background, or dressed them up with emotions, gave them a better position as Sultan, Cheif Royal Architect, etc.? Do we tend to overlook bad behavior in those we feel more comfortable with? I suppose I'll be thinking a lot more about this as the days go by.
There is no right or wrong answer here, there is just what we individually assess, for our own reasons, just as these characters did when choosing their actions.
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ah so - yep we see it differently - as to measuring who is worse - is like being a little bit pregnant - as to war - I just do not know - I see we have always had war - the only nation in the history of man that was not created and maintained by war is Libya - the idea that negotiations where both get something may catch on but I am not seeing it anytime soon.
I also see we each maintain ourselves only through the killing of either plants or animals - and so aggression appears to be a part of our life - To condone anythng goes behavior tosses us back to an uncivilized society before the ten commandments or the ethics of most religious belief systems -
Integrity is missing in Davud - I see Jahan not stooping to this disregard for others - as to using personal pain as the rational for a lack of integrity and for criminal behavior - we all have our challenges and some are more difficult - that difference was noted by Simon Wiesenthal immediately after being freed when fellow prisoners in the concentration camps destroyed th surrounding fields out of anger and revenge and his thoughts about that behavior in his famous book Sunflower.
So yes, we have to disagree - cannot imagine the kind of world where folks act on their negative feelings and we excuse crime and sin because of personal pain therefore, condoning killing others and stealing or destroying what belongs to others is justifying organized crime and Antifa today. I just can't...
Yes just saw your next post and she does bring us face to face with identifying our morality doesn't she - OK full day today -
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Barb,
cannot imagine the kind of world where folks act on their negative feelings and we excuse crime and sin because of personal pain therefore, condoning killing others and stealing or destroying what belongs to others is justifying organized crime and Antifa today. I just can't...
Nor can I. As you have overlooked .... I have repeatedly said, "I do NOT condone his actions." I do NOT excuse, condone or accept crime and sin of anyone including, Davud's, Mihramah, Kahtun or any other character's acts of evil. I merely am stating, I can understand Davud's thinking. Understanding a person's thinking does not equate to agreeing or condoning his reasons or actions. A HUGE difference. And yes, if we cast judgement on Davud, then we must also include all the other characters who did evil. Sinan must have saw something in Davud to hire him, keep him on as his apprentice, and not reveal he was ONE of those sabotaging the sites. He even stated on his death bed, to not hate. Sinan had his own flaws, and he was able to see others flaws as well. There were layers and layers of liars, deceivers and evil doers in this story.
Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles, or moral uprightness. It is a personal choice to hold one's self to consistent standards. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. Having integrity means you are true to yourself and would do nothing that demeans or dishonors you.
Again, what one person sees as integrity, could be something another does not. I am sure Davud thought he had integrity, because he saw himself saving his people. Was what he did right? Absolutely NOT! But in his eyes, we would never convince him differently. That's where the author is brilliant!!!
Not sure where you are going with Antifa, but I am strongly against them and there actions.
I think you and I are actually closer to agreeing than we realize. For me, I am staying with this story and the characters, leaving personal emotion out of it. I can see yours is more personal, and I respect that.
Have a great day!
Today is a great day to celebrate the good in the world.... American pastor Andrew Brunson is back on American soil!!!
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Wow, our author really sparks all sorts of lines of thought. I don't begin to know enough about this complex problem to say anything sensible about the role of war in society, and its relation to good and evil, so I'll pass on that one.
But Bellamarie, you summed up nicely what I was trying to say about Davud:
These characters became evil, once they began doing their evil acts, regardless of their reasons.
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To look for the reasons one just gets mired in moral complexities. Such inspired posts from all of you. I hardly know what to add. Other than to wonder...were the Djinns, who caused so much mischief, on Davud's side? And wasn't Jahan lucky to get out of this alive and find his way back to Agra in time to help with the Taj Mahal. Still carrying the torch for Mirhimah.
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Yes, the issue of war is a difficult one - the more I read about economics and the history of banking the more discouraged I get that we have any control over war but then yes, Pat that is not an issue we can really discuss - it is a monster.
Bellamarie as to understanding the childhood experience of Davud, yes, but then to see how he navigated his life with that experience having taken over as the rational for his purpose in life??? - It happens - we also have many real life examples of children watching the killing of their parents and thank God we do not have wholesale reactions where these damaged folks attempt to change their immediate world using, as their rational, their assessment of wrong doing.
As to Davud's moral integrity - yep, personal - around 25 and 20 years ago (cannot believe it has been that long ago) I attended several 3 day workshops that were built on participants having a deeper understanding of various moral principles - two of those workshops included sitting around a table of only 5 and discussing among ourselves what integrity meant and then each table of 5 had to silently, with no words, however using some building blocks placed on each table, we acted out for the entire group the word integrity. We did this with other words as well, like honesty and fidelity etc.
And so from that experience I've a personal connection - having a personal understanding of various words that describe moral behavior. What I do see is, as Pat says, once you cross the line and incorporate the benefits of acting the opposite of moral integrity it appears for many to seal their fate.
Golly who would have guessed this book would have us examining our inner most beliefs and the history we have learned - wow... I am so glad to be reading it with y'all - I'm not sure reading this on my own I would have questioned half of what we have discussed these last few weeks.
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Jonathan see you posted - yes, quite a bundle of happenings - Janah to have lived such a long and useful life building is a story - do not know as much about building the Taj and to associate that finished product with the Mosques built all those years before - the Taj does seem lighter and more as if floating compared to the earth bound feeling I get from seeing photos of the Mosques of Istanbul. Are you curious as I am about the architectural design of the Tag Mahal?
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Youtube of the history and building of the Taj Mahal - Interesting the Shaw's name was Jahan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtBrFHU-Y3k
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z0wrTgH8QYc/VFgwHOP1EiI/AAAAAAAAGzk/sgtMLRRi-QA/s1600/Major%2Bcomponents%2Bof%2Bthe%2BTaj.jpg)
(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/finaltajmahal-131012143559-phpapp01/95/tajmahal-16-638.jpg?cb\u003d1507215748)
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Jonathan,
To look for the reasons one just gets mired in moral complexities.
Completely agree. And each of us have our own personal perspectives, depending on our own experiences, and upbringing. I felt our author kept with a theme of, They had their reasons, which got a bit tiring for me.
PatH., Wow, our author really sparks all sorts of lines of thought.
Indeed she did! A brilliant writer, in my opinion.
Barb, Thank you for leading this discussion, as always you challenge us in ways we would not probably think about, if we read this book alone. Thank you for all the links and pictures, they gave a great background to the history, and visuals to help us see the greatness in these mosques.
I enjoyed the book and the discussion. My hubby asked me, if I had to rate the book on a scale from 1 - 10 what would I give it? I told him a 7. He asked, why a 7? I said, I loved the history, and the complex characters, but the ending fell short for me. I did not like how the author took us off into a sorcery, unrealistic feel, although it fit well for the month of October and Halloween approaching.
Jonathan, PatH., and all who began with us, those who popped in if only to lurk, have a great Fall season, the holidays will be upon us faster than we know.
Can't wait to see what our next book will be.
I'm off to the Appleumkin Festival in a small rural town of Tecumseh, Michigan. Hoping to enjoy some Fall colors, smells and crisp air, along with the goodies to eat!!
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My, oh my, oh my. There are so many ways to read this book. It's a love story. An old man's story. All brought back for him with the building of the Taj Mahal. Shah and mahout building memorials to their lost loves, a beautiful taj and a heartbreaking tale.
The end for all of us comes without reason. It's more by chance that we fall away when the angels use their wings to cause the leaves to fall from the silver tree in paradise. That should be thought about.
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I didn't feel the magic, or curse, to be out of place, and to me the last part moved smoothly and satisfyingly to an unexpected but, in a way, very logical close.
The magic isn't exactly real, any more than the pigeon's dung cured Jahan's cuts. Shafak builds on the fact that Sinan really did live to be about 100. Everyone believed in magic, amulets, curses. Hesna Khatun believed that she and Sinan both suffered from the curse of long life, and that she had cursed Jahan thus. Jahan believes it too. But it's perfectly possible, even though not very likely, that those two very tough characters just lived that long.
I've got more to say, including a theme we've underplayed, but it'll have to wait, maybe until tomorrow.
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Anxious Pat - there was so much in this story and to realize there is an entire theme that can be looked at - wonderful - look forward to tomorrow
Jonathan heartbreaking in so many ways that love can be... never thought but yes, an old man's tale.
Bellamarie so glad you enjoyed the book and the discussion - and thanks for the kudos - it has been a good read with lots of sidebars.
Gotta run - late and Poldark is on TV... :)
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Khatun cursed Jahan to live a long life as well, and he did. I had to think about this, back then they felt if you lived a long life it was because you were cursed for punishment. Today we see living a long life as being blessed and favored.
I went to a small town Fall Appleumpkin Festival yesterday and was browsing all the antique shops. Look what I came across.
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44037134_10217835258256519_6916855890301681664_o.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_eui2=AeFNlmhI21hDH5L409Iw0TwuDvmtIT4cyhN-q_CUoQNYJpwnDB766L91dKbGK7w0mv_MOmQbS6Nw0WAkzHYMsuhiYsLwao197o1kxn9OrUsSvA&oh=a17aa6dffeea55329240a9298d3ba3c7&oe=5C41AEF3)
I actually purchased this: It's VHS, but I have a new VHS player so I can't wait to sit and watch this with my hubby one cold winter day. He has never watched Gone With the Wind.
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44028220_10217835353578902_8581135024349249536_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_eui2=AeFGifYVMg34EariX9F2xwWhhimeHnwvzxqfXrvyP5Ut3NYxCdJP0rR8P7qh5djkUvmgAhgI5bRDaM09Z4XbOdgq2mjxE1S_TmmBrn9YLMRvVg&oh=411fae90ff4f1e32d5ba270549a37669&oe=5C5C0C53)
Here is one more cute thing, the writer in me loved:
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44083865_10217835262936636_5977229075863830528_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_eui2=AeGF0LNXl5yY5WquiM-0MAAQtlwUy86bS8EDFESoTeNJ5YwordD_GChEea9jmbSGRAGwMPPnc58eWjU7hIrXQ9MAOxx1uNpoCMLnsNso2xLgpw&oh=de48b0c9d07f0427f9a8b0b01f830f6d&oe=5C5E46C0)
Okay, enough, PatH., I look forward to hearing the theme you found in this story, we may have missed.
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I also wanted to mention, last night I was watching Life, Liberty and Levin, his guest was George Gilder, who wrote a book called, Life After Google. What an interesting show. I am a techy person. I taught Apple computers in a Catholic elementary school from 1984 - 2000. So I was ground floor, bringing technology to our school. I look back and see how far we have come just in the last eighteen years since I left teaching, and it would not amaze me if his visions/predictions are valid. The one thing I strongly agree with is, artificial intelligence will never replace people, we will always need people to enter data, run the technological machines, etc.
Here is a link to read a little more about him and the book.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32073021-life-after-google?from_search=true
I know our members in this book club are innovative and informative people, and I would like to suggest we tackle something like this in the near future. It may be a bit over our heads, but our great minds could all work together in trying a stab at a book on technology, especially because it could give us a little insight into what our future could be in store for.
We tackled the Ebola virus, Henrietta Lacks living cells, The Girls of Atomic City and the women in NASA, I think we are capable of taking on technology topics. I saw the movie The Imitation Game, about Alan Turing, How Alan Turing Invented the Computer Age. In 1936, whilst studying for his Ph.D. at Princeton University, the English mathematician Alan Turing published a paper, “On Computable Numbers, with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem,” which became the foundation of computer science.
Who would be up for this challenge? Maybe after the New Year??
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| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/architect/architect_cvr.jpg) |
Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three SultansDiscussion Schedule:- Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
- Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
- Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
- Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256
- Sunday October 7....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
- Thursday October 11................After the Master
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Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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We've had a 45 degree drop in Temperature overnight - rain and to go even lower during the day - busy trying to winterize - wait and you see - will just about get everything battened down and next week the temp will be back up to 89 and 90 again... sheesh...
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we are experiencing Lots of flooding - the various rivers are going on a rampage - the Llano, Colorado, Guadalupe, Brazos
(https://media.graytvinc.com/images/810*455/Nolan-Creek-flooding-Belton-10.16.18.jpg)
I got curious and evidently Istanbul also floods and just did in September
(https://watchers.news/data/thumbs/798_296/2017/07/extreme-rainfall-floods-istanbul-turkey-july-18-2017.jpg)
And then I wondered and sure enough it snows every year in Istanbul
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/01/12/world/12IstanbulSnow7/12IstanbulSnow7-superJumbo.jpg)
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Barb, I saw on Facebook this morning where my daughter in law was asking if her cousin in Texas was okay from the flooding. I thought about you, and lo and behold I come in and see your pics. Are you going to be okay where you are living? Be safe my friend!
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So far my roof is holding and the water coming down the hill is not piling up at my garage door - we have had weeks of rain and now this - it appears the entire Hill Country, a 3 county area is coming to Austin by way of the rivers and lakes... exaggeration but bridges are washed away, broken up homes, propane tanks, boats, docks all rushing for Austin - the dams are catching most of it and the work to clear the dams is ongoing - what a mess...
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I am so sorry to hear this. Please stay safe.
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Question posed by Shafak
(https://scontent-dfw5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18157432_10211280964952881_2739187520436136797_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&oh=cbdb5dd383a741679a17a6c9239fb3ce&oe=5C3DB703)
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What a striking image, Barb. Life as a high-wire act. What is the question?
It leads right into what I'm going to propose. I went out to find Life After Google, just the sort of thing I'd like to read, to keep up with the times. Not available. Sold out. But I did get the most enthralling book: Glittering Images, A Journey Through Art from Egypt to Star Wars, by Camille Paglia. Twenty-nine images, each with three or four pages of commentary. How about that for November? One a day.
Do you remember the fun we had, discussing her collection of poems, Break, Blow, Burn? Forty-three of them. From a sonnet by Shakespeare to Joni Mitchell's "Woodstock. I still remember coming across the border and declaring my purchases in the U.S. "Does this incite to violence", I was asked. I was pleased to inform him it was from a sonnet addressed to God.
One of the images is a life-size icon (mosaic) of John Chrysostom in the Hagia Sophia Museum in Istanbul. Another is an image of Monet's Garden at Giverny.
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Jonathan, Good interpretation of the picture.... Life as a high wire act.
I also thought about, Life is a balancing act. Yes, so what is the question? And what are on the ends of each of the poles? One looks like a brain and the other looks like a body. So is it, "Mind over Matter?"
WOW! So you could not purchase Life After Google because it was sold out! Now, I will go on my own hunt for it. I am all about wanting to stay up on technology in the future as well. I don't recall discussing Break, Blow, Burn? How funny being asked if it incited violence? Lucky for you, they believed you, or you could have been another Gentleman is Moscow...... lolol
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One of those blobs is a brain, the other a heart, so I guess the question is how to balance the two in your life. An eternal problem.
Goodness, it was 2005 when we discussed Break, Blow, Burn. Time flies. It was a really enjoyable discussion. I wonder how Paglia will do talking about images instead of words.
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Thanks PatH., my computer was acting up and would not allow me to bring the pic in closer so I could only imagine the heart as a person. Yes, a balancing act between the heart and brain.
So I guess this discussion has come to an end, since we have turned to the pic rather than the story, so I will again, thank Barb for being our moderator, and all of you who participated in the discussion. It's not the kind of book that I'll keep forefront for long, but I did enjoy the story and discussion.
I hope Barb is okay down in Texas, the river is still rising and causing much flooding.
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Sorry folks the flooding is taking over - have a couple of friends who we helped to get as much removed from their house - I'm OK and my house is OK - I've friends up near Marble Falls and then others in the San Gabriel flood plain who had to leave although, the flooding was not as bad as expected on the San Gabriel - we have not seen this many flood gates open on the dam in town since 1957.
Yes Pat, brain versus heart - the balance as we walk a tight rope - reminded me of the early part of the book, which I have still not found the answer as to how our soul affects our behavior - all I've read so far does say we act based on feelings or from our heart and only engage our brain if we get in the habit of doing that - I have not found yet anything that explains how our soul is in the mix -
Sounds like a great book and nice idea for a project of a daily read Jonathan - not sure I'm up for another discussion this fall - maybe someone else would do it - found the book on Amazon and it does look like something I would enjoy exploring - however, right now I am not thinking beyond helping friends in need
Bellamarie, yes it was a good read wasn't it - as always you add so much to our discussions - seeing current news that showed a forest near Istanbul is sure giving me an entirely different picture of what was Constantinople of the Ottoman Empire - I imagined a more barren land - never imagined forests and mountains but that is the reality - Did you have a picture in your mind while reading of what the area surrounding the city looked like?
There are so many off shoots of curiosities this book prompted - I do not know about y'all but I am no curious to learn more about the break between Rome and Constantinople and what the difference was and is between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic versions of Christianity during Byzantine's time of the 'new' Rome. I'm also needing to track down the Islamic tribes that lived in Constantinople - that much I had learned that the Islamic Arabs and Persians were organized by tribes - not sure how the Islamic's in the Ottoman Empire were organized.
OK woke up - too tired to sleep - need to get myself rested and together again - the stress is not helping but we do what we have to do...
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Oh Barb I am so sorry to hear your friends are effected by the floods. I am glad to hear you are okay. I am not up to another book discussion either, maybe after the New Year we can tackle something.
In the meantime, I am beginning a new book called, The PostMistress by Sarah Blake. It is 1940, and radio announcer Frankie Blake, reporting from war-torn Europe knows its just a matter of time before America enters the fray. Meanwhile in Cape Cod, newlywed Emma Fitch is bereft since her physician husband left to help. She doesn't know about the letter he gave postmistress Iris James, or that Frankie, too, has missive she carries with her until the day fate lands her on Emma's doorstep.
I just got home from attending one more funeral, so since March there has been nine people die. I'm not liking this at all. I need an escape into a fictional book that does not require much thinking.
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Barb, I'm so sorry you have to deal with flooding. You're a good friend to help your friends.
I've been having internet problems that make it hard to do long posts without losing them. Just lost even this short post. Give me one more day to try to say my last bit before pulling the plug on me.
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PatH., I have been having internet problems as well. I have my provider coming out tomorrow to check my connections and wires. I have wifi throughout my house and now when I am in my bedroom I have no connections. It can be very frustrating. Can't wait to hear your last thoughts on the book. Just a little bit of advice....when writing a post, stop and copy it from time to time in case you should lose it.
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Two days and no word from Barb. Our thoughts are with you. How fortunate that the flooding held off until we were through our read. Thanks, you were brilliant as our DL. The same to all of you. What a pleasure to be in such fine company.
Pat, I meant to hold you to your promise of a week ago to post something about a hidden theme. It seemed to me there were many things hinted at in the book that I took as part of its architecture. Quite elaborate. But that's a feature of longevity, isn't it?
Bellamarie, what a fountain of ideas you are in our discussions. I wonder about your interest in artificial intelligence when you have such a good supply of the real thing.
Thanks to all.
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Pat we have all been looking forward to your sharing - as Jonathan shares there is so many themes hinted at in this story - talk about a 1000 and 1 Nights - if this is an example of stories written by authors who live in this part of the world they are like never ending fibers that each is only the start of unwinding a ball of yarn.
Yes, Jonathan, thank goodness the worst of the rising water came as we were finishing our discussion - unbelievable - yesterday was supposed to be finally a day of clearing but that dark heavy sky was with us and the rain continued - That old 1939 movie keeps coming to mind that I saw as a child - a black and white about rains flooding in India - looked it up and it appears the movie was remade in the 1950s and renamed The Rains of Ranchipur which was an expression used in the original move - I just remember seeing the early version with people being carried by the water and everything it the path of the water being ripped from its foundation. Reality no way would the force of a flood carry anyone.
Well my house has not been ripped from its foundation but with all my sacks of soil, I could not keep water out of my garage - no longer up to digging the trench deep enough along the front of the house so the rain hopping the curb and coming down the driveway has somewhere to go other than in my garage. Thank goodness there is a step up from the garage floor to the house - then a quick piling of some of my friends things on a large piece of plywood I quickly set on a pair of metal horses I had in the garage -
Finally today the sun - the actual sun - it has been weeks since we have seen the sun - Alejandra, the young boy next door mowed my lawn and had to stop over and over since everything is still so wet the mower would get clogged with wet grass - reminded me of this story - out of the blue and in the middle of all the bustle this week some aspect of this story would come to mind and I would stop, look up for a bit trying to remember the words. Interesting how in my head I can actually see pictures of many of the scenes.
Bellamarie the issues you are having with your connection is such the reminder of how we have all become dependent on technology - we order online rather than put up with crowded highways and crowded stores often with sales representatives that cannot even subtract a number from a dollar or know their inventory to be of assistance - just too easy now to order online - and then we talk to distant family on line as well as, sending a quick message to those who live nearby - I don't know about you but I even do my bill paying online - did away with newspaper delivery so many years ago now - actually, thinking about it, what I miss is of all things, the comics - hmmm wonder if that is the matter with many of us - no comics to break the drama of the moment.
Oh and the Sunday funnies - a whole section of one cartoon series after the other - what bliss we had and never realized it - perhaps it is the comics that kept us moving forward when life became thorny - hmmm we need comics.
In fact some of this story I could almost see as a comic strip - not the hahaha kind but the introspection of The Family Circus, or Charlie Brown, or Calvin and Hobbes - no meanness, or blatant one sided political party support, or making in fun of people - yep, that is what I miss - could see some of the exchange that Jahan had with Chota as a comic-strip - for sure the scene where he danced for the Gypsy's amusement in order to secure their elephant, playing the pimp for his beloved Chota -
I have never seen a white elephant - even a photo of a white elephant - have any of y'all ever seen a white elephant? Trying to wrack my memory I do not think I ever saw a white elephant in a newsreel that included any of the British royalty in India.
Notice Jonathan in Camille Paglia's book on art she does have information about the Hagia Sophia as one of her esteemed pieces of art to consider - will our lives be so changed that her book will not be of interest after the holiday season? I hope not because where I could not tackle it now I would look forward to it to get through January and early February. I could even see doing it while the winter selection of a book was started so that this could be a daily reprieve from all the drama of the day.
We really need to say something in our Senior learn library so folks can see if it is available in their local library. I'm thinking though lets wait till we have the next few months formulated. It is still only October.
Well I think I need to close the garage door that has been wide open helping to dry things and then go in and take a nap - drying out and getting rest are my only aims in life just now ;) - although I am excited Pat to hear what gem you have that we overlooked - fun...
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Barb, So good to hear from you! Thank heavens your house did not get flooded. I'm happy to hear you finally have sunshine. Isn't it funny how we seem to take the sun for granted, until there is not sign of it for days and days?
Sunday comics, maybe we do need more comics in our lives to remind us to laugh out loud. When I have my grand kids overnight they like to watch certain kid shows, and just listening in the background I was appalled at what the writers have put into children's comic shows..... political views, gender, bullying, fighting over who likes who, same sex marriage, etc., etc. I know this world has gone politically correct crazy, but to place this type of mature subject matter in cartoon shows where children have no clue how to understand it is to me unthinkably irresponsible. Parents truly better be monitoring their Saturday morning cartoons today, because if you have certain family faith/moral//values you want to instill in your children, then certain shows would not fit your criteria for your little ones.
Jonathan, As a person who began technology in our grade school back in 1984, I am all for advancement in technology. As far as Artificial Intelligence, I plan to keep a close watch and learn as much as possible about the direction it is taking us. One thing I am certain of...... it is impossible for any machine to do any task without the input from a human being. It takes humans to create the programs for the machines to be able to compute the information fed into it, to come to certain equations. One thing also I can point out, is that every type of machine regardless what it is, will at one time or another get a glitch, or become outdated, needing new information or parts to operate successfully. My internet has been acting up lately, as I mentioned above. My cable man came today and found many issues causing me to lose my wifi connections. Most he was able to correct, but one issue is something he could not fix, and that is what they call, "dead spots." A dead spot can occur in your home, office, factory, etc., for no known reason, and it will be impossible for your device to receive the bandwave to run your device. Apparently my side of the bed NOW has a "dead spot" that has never been there before. He has worked for the cable company for 25 years, and when asked what causes this, he has no explanation and no fix for it. He said, "Looks like you will have to switch to your husband's side of the bed if you want to use your computer or ipad." I'm not a person who likes hearing, there is no fix. For me, there should always be a fix, so.... artificial intelligence is as intelligent as the person who programs, and enters the data, and the hardware and software to run it. Don't stop using your brain, or gathering more information on technology, but like Barb pointed out, the Sunday funnies makes for a good laughter in our lives, especially when our devices are not working properly.
Jonathan, I wonder about your interest in artificial intelligence when you have such a good supply of the real thing.
Thank you, what kind words. I am honored to be among the rest of you members, between the lot of us, we do make for great conversations.
PatH., We are all awaiting with bated breath to hear your final thoughts on the theme in the book.
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A dead spot in you house - use technology from your husband's side of the bed???!!!??? Sorry I think he was straight faced pulling your leg - now a dead spot in the city happens according to how the towers are set up but within a house - I guess you have to look at what stops radio signals but whatever stops them I cannot see they drew a line down the middle of your bed and you are now sleeping beyond the pale ;)
Oh lordy - of course when a workman cannot fix something they are in the habit of figuring out how a women will either be at fault of have to take the consequences.
Wouldn't you know ONE DAY - ONE DAY - of sunshine - ONE DAY - because sure enough if we are not overcast expecting more rain this afternoon. and the mosquitoes - I swear they are multiplying in our walls and light sockets - as cold as it felt for us having gone within an hour from 90 degrees to 54 degrees and not been above 67 since - except for yesterday - we may feel chilled and need to turn on the furnace but it is not cold enough to kill of mosquitoes. I've taken to lighting a citronella candle while I am on the computer and in the kitchen when I cook and after being bitten last night I guess I need to keep one lite near my bed. Well no use complaining - it is what it is... better go order a couple of more candles and maybe those hanging disks - of course I could fill white balloons with water and hang them on the eves of the house but they are in the house and just do not see how to hang water filled balloons except on chandlers and that is only over the table. Well fun and games - hate using deet - oh I know forgot till I was writing this - I need to tie some dryer sheets in the buttonhole on my shirt - of course - and I even have some lavender scented ones.
I do not know how they could stand it reading how those who took care of the animals slept on pads with blankets full of lice and I think the story said ticks but maybe not - just the lice and you know there had to be mosquitoes - oh and the flies - bigger animals like horses have lots of flies - I wonder if they had some secret potion to take care of the itch.
Come to think on it - I do not remember anytime in this story where we hear of Jahan or the workmen bowing in prayer during the call to prayers or Jahan attending services in any of these mosques except that one time when he prostrated himself on the floor after the mosque was completed. I do not recall but I do not think his religion was mentioned - I'm thinking he was not a Muslim - I wonder if he was Hindu and there was just no place or other Hindus to join.
Hope you can share with us Pat - sounds like you may have to break your thoughts up into a couple of sentences a post - that is fine we will have a series of post after post after post - maybe a dozen or more posts one or two sentences long - there is always a first time for anything ;)
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Barb,
Oh lordy - of course when a workman cannot fix something they are in the habit of figuring out how a women will either be at fault of have to take the consequences.
Oh my heavens you gave me a great laugh. My hubby was only home at the ending of this cable guy's work, so he didn't get to really see the interaction going on between him and myself.
First off, he began and ended calling me, "Lady." Okay, I told myself, I did not offer my name, nor did I know his.
Secondly, I followed him to the basement in case he needed to ask me anything. Well, he first asks, "Where are my splinters?" Hmmm.... knowing a little about the cable lines and connections, since I always watched former cable guys, and I would relocate the cables to reach our new big screen TV we mounted on the wall, and moved our computer desk, I instantly told him where I knew the lines should be. NOPE, he was not going to listen to me. I distinctly walked to the very spot where I knew the cable line came in from outside, and told him the cable box in located just outside this wall. NOPE, he asked where my circuit box was at. I showed him and he continued to remove ceiling tiles searching for where the cable line would come in from outside. Again, I told him I am standing where I am certain it is. FINALLY, he walks over, moves the ceiling tile and sees the cable.
Thirdly, He asked me to take my ipad to the upstairs bedroom and let him know how many bars were showing, so he could tell the strength of the wifi bandwidth. I did as he asked, came down and told him, "One bar in the corner where I sleep, and two bars as I leave my bedroom." He replied, "Well you can't expect it to be everywhere." I stated, "But up until just a few weeks ago I have always had it everywhere with NO problems, why would there now be a dead spot?" No explanation.
He decided to move the cable box out of the basement and up to my living room. I told him there is an old outlet behind my movable fireplace. I went to take a vase off to pull the fireplace out, and he stopped me in my tracks and said, "Wait there might be a better spot." I showed him two different prior outlets in my kitchen, one behind my china cabinet, and went to scoot it out, he said, "Boy you sure to like to move things." He didn't want to put it in the kitchen, and decided to put it in a corner in the living room where I had to move my sofa table. As he was finishing up, I checked my ipad and computer and it said, NO CONNECTION! I told him and he said, "Lady you sure are impatient, don't jump ahead of me, you have to give it a chance to connect." A few minutes go by, NO CONNECTION. I hear him back over by the cables say, "What the hell? Did I use the wrong cable?" He goes back down to the basement and disconnects a cable, and connects the other one. Instant connection on my ipad and computer. I say, "Maybe we better check my hubby's computer down in the basement too." His response, "That should be just fine." I went down and he followed me, NO CONNECTION! I told him that he disconnected the yellow cable that always was connected to my hubby's computer. He said, "I have been doing this for 25 years, I know what I am doing, that has nothing to do with this. Your husband has an old computer with Windows XP and you have the nice computer and ipad, that don't seem fair." I said, "Well I have offered to buy my hubby a new laptop and he refuses to let me." He said, "Well I think it's time he has a new computer, when do you plan to buy him one?" I said, "Not til Christmas, so you need to figure out why he has no wifi now." After fiddling around for about ten minutes, I suggested he plug the yellow cord back into the computer. He had to get a longer cord since he brought the cable box upstairs to the living room. Lo and behold.... wifi CONNECTED! I seriously thought I was in a Lucille Ball & Desi Arnez movie.
He may have worked 25 years with Cable, but what he didn't know is, I not only taught computers at our school, but I troubleshooted, replaced, connected and repaired all the twenty computers, after a tech guy was nice enough to show me exactly what to do to save our school money. I was my step father's right hand helper building additions and repairing plumbing and electrical in our older home. Moving cables and connecting computers in MY home for the past 40 years has been an old hat. As long as there is nothing wrong on the cable end, I can figure out the rest. As for the "Dead Spot." I was not going to argue with him, and waste any more time of my day. I told my hubby, we may have to switch spots in the bed if I want to use my devices when we go to bed. I do know my son has what they were told a "dead spot" in their house as well. But for years we have never had one, so why now?
If he took me for a dummy, or a helpless woman, believe me, once he left he realized, NOPE not this woman! Oh the joys of life! It's just one more thing I add to my list of what can go wrong this year, in this house. :) ::) ::) Thought ya'll would get a kick out of this fiasco.
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Laugh and a half Bellamarie- this guy's ego was so big he could not even listen - my oh my - I've run into that kind of guy and often wonder if that is they way they are at home or because they are unhappy at home they gin up all this guff to give out when they are on the job. All you can do is laugh - no matter how upsetting they never change and so it is either a tragedy or a comedy - They used to have plays that were a comedy of manners, now I think life, as a play, is more about a comedy of errors - ah so - such is life here of late...
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I agree, I was thinking what his wife must have to deal with. He kept saying, "We don't want to upset your husband." I finally said, "My husband is a pretty easy going guy, not much upsets him."
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What a hoot! What a great story, Bellamarie. There's a lot of good theater in your encounter with Mr. Fixit, that should be staged and taken to Broadway. It'll be a hit.
I'll admit my illiteracy in all this high-tech stuff, but very eager to learn. Let's do the Gilder book. Looking around the house I've found a couple of things on the subject. Like an outdated book on Google, published in 2005. What a great subtitle: How Google and its Rivals Rewrote the Rules of Business and Transformed Our Culture. How quickly things change. Now it's Life After Google!! And here's a university publication I received recently: The Future of Artificial Intelligence.
Just look at that. Inside it tells me: 'This magazine was generously supported by members of the MaRS ecosystem that are making Toronto a global hub for artificial intelligence.
Can you believe it. I'm at the center of the universe.
Barb, I'm sorry to hear about the plagues in Texas. Floods and infestation of insects. May you be spared the others that were so calamitous for ancient Egypt. How nice to hear that the sun has come out for you. Amazing grace.
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Bellamarie, I had a big laugh over your story too, but it sure wasn't funny for you at the time. Of course he couldn't take a woman seriously, and by the time it was obvious you were always right, he couldn't lose face. I don't have your detailed knowledge of computer systems, but I'm pretty handy with a whole lot of household repairs, and have figured out ways to get repairmen to respect me. Don't think they would have worked on this guy though.
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Jonathan,
'This magazine was generously supported by members of the MaRS ecosystem that are making Toronto a global hub for artificial intelligence.
Can you believe it. I'm at the center of the universe.
By GOLLY Jonathan, you have finally discovered what Jhan, Michelangelo, Sinan and all of Istanbul have been searching for..... no wonder they could not find "the center of the universe", it's in TORONTO, CANADA!!!!!
PatH., I suspect you would have held your own with this guy, although I have to tell you, he was at least 7' tall, to my 5'2.
Barb, I hope you have figured out how to battle those darn pesky mosquitoes. I feel badly seeing the sun every day here in Toledo, Ohio when you Texans are dealing with your rain and clouds. Prayers, there will be sunny, dry days ahead for you.
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Well, I finally pulled my thoughts together. It was harder to write than I thought. It isn't something new, just something we didn't emphasize.
For me, the whole story is tied together by an undercurrent that runs through it, though often low-key: the attitude of some of the architects toward their work. Look at Sinan, Sancha, and Jahan. They’re absorbed by their work; it dominates everything in their lives. Partly this the absorption of someone who has a demanding, creative profession that he’s good at, but it’s more than that. They are working for the glory of God.
Sinan, p 135:
“If there were no hope of reward and no fear of punishment, would I work less? I don’t believe so. I work to honor the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine. Have you made yours?”
Jahan made a sour face. “I don’t understand.”
“Let me tell you a secret,” said Sinan. “Beneath every building we raise—it doesn’t matter whether it’s small or large—just imaging that below the foundations lies the centre of the universe. Then you will work with more care and love.”
Jahan pursed his lips. “I don’t understand what that means.”.
“You will,” said Sinan. “Architecture is a conversation with God. And nowhere does He speak more loudly than at the centre.”
Sancha, p 347:
“The dome,....We should raise domes that remind people there is a God and that He is not a God of revenge and hell but of mercy and love.”
They are working in the service of God, and what they do is meant to proclaim His glory, and spread His message.
For them, the dome is the symbol of this, and it recurs often. Jahan has his first epiphany on seeing the light of a dome, seeing the whole world as architecture, as a dome, as a guide to the center. And as his life draws to a close, he is part of the building of another dome, perhaps the most splendid one of all.
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Bellamarie:
PatH., I suspect you would have held your own with this guy, although I have to tell you, he was at least 7' tall, to my 5'2.
Well, you're an inch taller than I am, so height had better not matter. ;)
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PatH., Thank you for sharing this theme you were able to continue to see running through our story.
I did feel these men did their work with special pride, detail was so important, even if they were going to be the only one who would know if there was a special symbol they etched in one brick. When you do your work with this pride, you know you are doing it for a greater cause. I did feel the "centre of the universe" meant something of a Biblical sense. Sinan was not perfect, but he expected perfection from himself and his apprentices. When you work for the Glory of God, you strive for worthiness. I think Sinan died a happy man, knowing he worked in that presence of mind. Throughout the story I felt as if Sinan was the in the sense of Jesus, leading his apostles to the promised land, (centre of the universe.) I always felt the centre of the universe metaphorically meant, Heaven.
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Barb, how are you faring now? Are you having to boil your water?
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Splendid, Pat. That's what I was missing in the book and you found it. The book has everything - even a comic book aspect, as Barb points out. It certainly is a fine manual on the care and training of elephants But not enough insight into the nature of architecture, and the center of the universre that we were promised. And then, along the way, out of the blue, there is a mention of architecture as the search for the harmony in the universe, which is just as aesthetic and thought provoking. I'm charmed by the ending. The two Jahans building monuments to their lost loves.
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Pat you have offered an insight that gives me pause - had to look at my todo list from this perspective - had me rearrange a few things and even changed my mindset about what I am doing at this phase in my life - thank you for sharing your insight - fabulous - part of what you saw I could even take a step further - not said buy Shafak however, "just imaging that below the foundations lies the center of the universe." I'm thinking not just in buildings but in any endeavor where we use our innate talent and trained skills. All work can be carried out as a conversation with God and also, under all of us "lies the center of the universe"
Seeing other's as speaking from that center then becomes a challenge - I would like to think all of us speak as standing on the center of the universe and then I am reminded of those in and out of the story who speak and act in ways to harm - then the balloon pops - the balloon of wanting to believe all folks are speaking and acting with "more care and love". How do we assertion if a building was raised by men and women who were engaged in a covenant with God. OR does it matter - by virtue of their association building the structure they automatically were in a conversation with God regardless they knew it or not.
I really like this line of thinking - but I am also aware I have in the past been too Pollyanna with my trust - ah so the questions of our lives... at least it is a guide that I am grateful you brought to our attention - a guide I can use to help me sort out what is important that I want to carry out with care and love.
You nailed in Bellamarie describing Sinan - he had as much influence in this story as Jahan and his elephant - special when you have a gifted person who pursues his skills and has the skills to create opportunity for others to develop their skills and also to motivate them to do their best - those are the special people aren't they.
Jonathan great summation and the phrase "architecture as the search for the harmony in the universe," sounds like Taoism - harmony in the universe - really thought provoking as you say - and the ending does show Shafak to be as J.K. Rowling - they both researched and incorporated history in their storytelling.
I wish good follow-up books on some of these thoughts were not so dang expensive - Baylor has a great follow-up book to further thoughts on Architecture as a discipline seeking harmony with the universe - Architecture and Theology The Art of Place by Murray A. Rae https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481307635/
This one also looks good - Sacred Power, Sacred Space: An Introduction to Christian Architecture and Worship by Jeanne Halgren Kilde - at least the kindle version of this one is affordable.
Found this website - interesting - have not read it all but a student's essay on How Is Harmony Is Perceived In Contemporary Design Philosophy
https://www.ukessays.com/essays/philosophy/how-is-harmony-is-perceived-in-contemporary-design-philosophy-essay.php
Well I was about to give up on the sun - we were promised starting today there would be sun for a week - we have not seen the sun for 3 days in a row since August much less for an entire week - well no sun and no sun and more rain till just 10 or 15 minutes ago - after 4: in the afternoon - it goes in and out with lots of clouds in the sky - we shall see what we shall see - I think for feet and hands I will soon have green kelp -
Thanks for asking Pat - living alone I do not need that much water - my son was here yesterday and brought me a case but I was doing well - when I boiled water for my coffee I put in extra that I then put in a jar in the frig - as for dishes I only use a dinner plate in the evening - the other meals really do not require a dish except my coffee cup and so I am simply using up my dishes and letting them soak till the water is OK again and then a big general wash will take place. Looks like I'm OK - no dog or cat to worry about - just me and I'm just fine...
Think we can leave this discussion alive till next Monday and then we will archive it - so a few more days if anyone has further thoughts to share - - -
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I'm pretty sure we have exhausted ourselves on this story. Again, thank you Barb for being our discussion lead. I really never would have read this book on my own. Everyone who participated kept me interested in seeing what they were seeing in this story.
I am going to go to my bookshelves, and see what book will be my next one to read. Til our next discussion you all take care. Barb I'll leave you with the song from the musical Annie....The sun'll come out tomorrow, bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow there'll be sun.....
https://youtu.be/Yop62wQH498
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:D ;D 8) ::) :-* ;) Thanks - love it Bellamarie :) and what do you know the sun came out today - don't know if I can believe it - everything looks so unreal - half concerned it will only be for today but the weather says for an entire week - tra la - I think I will wait one more day to do laundry and give things a chance to dry out a bit - they expect to be able to lift the boil water mandate this weekend.
Have not driven down to the lake (actually the dammed up Colorado river) and see the tumbling rushing water moving through town - hate seeing what the water will be carrying along with it - parts of houses, bridges, docks, boats, lake side restaurants, propane tanks - thank God no people but hate seeing all that destruction and so I my just skip it...
Trying to decide if I should give this book to my grandson who has just started to study architecture - I may though find other books with photos of the various mosques and information that would appeal to a builder rather than this novel - plus there is so much in this novel I think this one I keep and will actually read again - with so many books to read I am not as willing as I was years ago to repeat read but this one was just packed with far more than a boy, his elephant and architecture.
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Good grief!!! Texas will have to be hung out to dry. Can we send you some wash line? How many miles will you need?
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;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTh-4Ss07AE ;)
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Yes, we've pretty much squeezed everything out of the book. Did you notice the last appearance of Balaban, Jahan's guardian angel who manages to show up when needed to save Jahan? Jahan is almost a hundred, and Balaban is surely dead by now, but his lookalike is the one who orders Jahan to go to Agra, where he will finally find a bit more peace and happiness.
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Jonathan, Camille Paglia's book is waiting for me at the library. I'll have a look and see if it would make a good discussion.
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It's a beautiful bok, Pat. It's a crash course in art appreciation How can one not get caught up in the pleasure of an aesthetic experience by learning how to look. Paglia conveys the spirit in her comment on a work by Picasso: "Picasso's Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, the most important painting in any American museum, has drawn an enormous body of commentary, but I believe I have noticed and interpreted details that others have missed.'
How much more remains to be discovered by your eyes and mine in Paglia's company?
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Ha cannot believe it - all this time and the index shows this is the PRE-discussion - funny - with all that we have discussed and learned this has been some pre-discussion hasn't it been - As you said Pat we squeezed much out of this story - We've been picking some good ones here of late however, this one just fell in our laps - I do not think it was on anyone's radar screen.
Almost tempted to read another of her books but I need to let this sit for a bit - I've one of the books spoken about in our story on my list to order after the Holidays - Vitruvius: The Ten Books on Architecture - all 10 books are in one paperback volumn for only $13 that should be interesting to see what was said hundreds of years ago about Architecture. Also ordered a week ago Camille Paglia's book - should arrive any day now.
Well Austin is back - sun out, boiling water was lifted today and in the mid eighties where the temps belong this time of year and and and we are looking forward to a full week of weather as we expect it this time of year - Understand the Northeast is getting a brutal winter storm and it appears every area has its weather challenges -
This has been great and tomorrow it will come to an end - I'll let Jane know probably late morning and then it is up to her schedule when we are archived.
Happy Fall
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/e4b640dba090f5a54cf3a657397371cb/tumblr_ph2tsw0GwH1rqqdi9o1_500.jpg)
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That gives me time to thank you, Barb. You put a lot of work into the discussion, while the waters were swirling around you. All the links and pictures you found were important to our understanding. And Bellamarie and Jonathan, most of the time there were only four of us, but thanks to all of us we sure had a good discussion and a good time.