Author Topic: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club  (Read 59584 times)

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2011, 03:23:38 PM »
Plutarch's Lives



Plutarch at the Museum of Delphi, Greece.





Ruins of the temple of Apollo at Delphi, where Plutarch was a priest


The readers have spoken and our next read October 1 will be: Plutarch (c.46 A.D.- c. 120 A.D.) in his famous "Lives" or Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans; also called Parallel Lives.


     Schedule:

     Oct. 1-?: Pompey

     Oct. ?:  Anthony

     Oct. ?: Alcibiades, Coriolanus and comparison

     Oct. ?: Demosthenes, Cicero and comparison

     ?:  Windup





Pompey the Great


Questions for Week I: Pompey:

1. Someone once saidthat everyone wants either money, fame, or power. Which of these was most important to Pompey? What avenues were open to Romans to acheive these goals? Does this differ from modern society?

2. If Plutarch wrote these lives as moral lessons for the young, what do you feel is his moral assessment of Pompey? What is yours?

3. In a period where there was almost no threat to the Roman Empire from the outside, there was almost constant war. Other than reasons already given , what do you think are the reasons for this? Are there any parallels in modern times?

4. How is the US government based on the Roman Republic. What does Pompey's life tell us about how that Republic worked in practice? How is that different from the way ours works (or is it)? Could our Republic be ended at one stroke as the Roman's was?

5. What does Pompey's life tell us about the role of women in Patrician Roman society?


Discussion Leaders: JoanK and  PatH


Clough Translation-Roshanarose's Link

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #121 on: September 28, 2011, 03:26:30 PM »
From JoanK:

The second thing I wanted to understand was the government. It's really complicated: I don't understand it all, but here's what we probably need to know.

Pompey lived at the time of the Roman Republic. This republican form of government is considered one of Rome's great contributions to civilization: our government is based on it.

There were two governing bodies: the Senate, picked by the Patricians, and the Tribunal, voted on by the plebes. If I understand it, the Senate passed the laws, but the Tribunal had veto power. Although the tribunal was voted on by plebes, and plebes could be members, most of the members were Patricians who had bribed the plebes to vote for them. At this time, according to Durant, the plebes did not really exercise power, but were bribed by patricians, so it was a means of gaining money, relief from debts, or other concessions in the law.

Instead of one "president", there were two consuls, one chosen by the Senate, and one by the tribunes. The term of a consul was short (1 to two years) but after the end of his term, he became a Senator. Senators served for life. The consul's power was limited by the short term, and by the fact that there were two. BUT in times of danger, the senate could elect a consul to be DICTATOR. A dictator had absolute power: most of those who came to power as consuls had themselves elected dictator. But a dictators term was very short, 6 months to a year. When the term was up, the dictator stepped down.

A little later, Julius Ceasar will get himself elected Dictator, and refuse to step down. That, in one step, was the end of the Republic! This reading is making me realize to a new level what a wonder our government (with all its flaws, and they are many) is!

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #122 on: September 28, 2011, 09:48:54 PM »
PatH and JoanK- Nice summaries there.

FYI - the last two line in "roshanarose's link" re Pompey are :

The ashes of Pompey were carried to his wife Cornelia, who deposited them at his country house near Alba.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2011, 08:33:12 AM »
 Thanks for that summary of the military situation, PAT.  That should help considerably.  All
I have been able to discern about Pompey from past reading was that he was popular and successful...and always seeking to advance himself.  I hope to have a broader view after this
reading and discussion.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2011, 10:39:39 AM »
Thanks, Babi.  It's JoanK's summary.  She's better than I am at boiling things down.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2011, 10:41:40 AM »
The summaries are VERY helpful, PatH and JoanK, even for Latin students.  We really haven't talked much about Pompey.  With all this talk about Pompey, what keeps running through my mind is a best seller from eons ago called The View from Pompey's Head  Haven a clue what it's about.  Maybe learning more about Pompey will give some insight into the title.

EvelynMC

  • Posts: 216
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2011, 01:13:16 PM »
Thanks for the explanation Pat H and Joan K.  It really helps.

I haven't been online for a while because I had a a an operation on my foot, was in a wheel chair and couldn't get to my computer.  Am completely healed now and am walking just fine.  And feel its time I used my brain again.  ;)

Looking forward to this discussion.

Evelyn

EvelynMC

  • Posts: 216
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #127 on: September 29, 2011, 02:40:46 PM »
Pat H,

You asked what translation I had ...
My translation is the Kindle edition "Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans, Plutarch's Lives, Improved 8/11/2010".  I think this is the same edition Joan K. referred in her post.

Thank goodness for my Kindle.  It's lightweight and I can enlarge the print.

Evelyn

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #128 on: September 29, 2011, 03:41:21 PM »
EVELYN:"Thank goodness for my Kindle.  It's lightweight and I can enlarge the print." I'm with you there. great to "see you again!

My wacky keyboard is working again, thank goodness. When I first read the Plutarch section, I admit my reaction was "huh?". What on earth are they doing with all these fights, and new fights etc. I think the overall picture is more important than the details, especially on the Civil Wars: who's on whose side when. It's kinda like high school: who's in, who's out etc. If we get too bogged down in details, we'll be here forever.

So if any of you were feeling bogged down, I hope the summaries above help.

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #129 on: September 29, 2011, 04:36:46 PM »
I owe The San jose Library system a Mea Culpa.
It wasn't the library system that didn't know or have Plutarch's Lives but the Librarian who didn't know how to access them.
I went to the library in a last ditch attempt to ask them to get volume three from another library.
Lo and behold! a different librarian (very serious older gentleman) asked me what edition I wanted and with a flick of the
 computer keys he ordered me what I wished from the main library that has transllations starting from 1574. (that one they won't loan out).

So my "Odyssey" is over and I will join you as a full fledged reader not dependent on the computer's whimseys.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #130 on: September 29, 2011, 06:34:24 PM »
YEAH!

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #131 on: September 30, 2011, 08:32:30 AM »
 With the big day just one day away, I decided to go back to Michael Grant and see what else
I should remind myself of before tackling Plutarch's  "Pompey".  Grant, (formerly Fellow of Trinity College Cambrige; Professor of Humanity at Edinburgh Univ; and President and Vice-Chancellor of the Univ.of Khartoum.)  had some pertinent critique of Plutarch and his style.

   Though Plutarch lived most of his life at his birthplace in Greece, he also attained Roman
citizenship.  He was famed in Rome as a lecturer on philosophical and rhetorical themes.
His renown also naturally gained him honors in his homeland.  He must have been 50+
when he was awarded a priesthood for life and citizenship in Athens.

 He was a prolific writer.  An ancient list of his works numbers 227 treatises, of which 60
survive.   Historically, his most important works would be the biographies describing
military men and statesmen.   These were mostly grouped in pairs, one Greek and one
Roman,  compared because  of similarities.  Grant assessed some of his strengths and weaknesses.
  One of Plutarch’s strengths he saw as the inclusion of actions, sayings and minor peculiarities
of his subjects; another is the “flexibility of the structures” of the “Lives”.  “His special
gift lies in his choice of intimate anecdotes, calculated to catch the attention of his readers
and to bring out the moral character of his subjects.”
   
  Plutarch’s weakness is the use of  'unfounded conjecture’,  imaginary conversations, and
“shaky personal judgment”.    He saw everything in terms of his own times,  and had no concept of historical change.  Grant says, “Yet this was, perhaps, a natural enough attitude during the long lasting Roman Peace, which seemed to stretch infinitely both backward and forward without a break.”  Plutarch did not believe a person's character could change, either.
  All these seemed good points to keep in mind when reading the biographies.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Frybabe

  • Posts: 9968
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2011, 09:23:18 AM »
You may find me MIA for a while, depending. George is back in the hospital, but up home this time. I will be checking on the house and cats. Hopefully, I will not have to drive up there.

EvelynMC

  • Posts: 216
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2011, 12:54:58 PM »
Babi,

Thanks for the very interesting information.  That's what I like about these discussions.  All the background that enriches the reading.

Evelyn

JoanR

  • Posts: 1093
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #134 on: September 30, 2011, 04:43:59 PM »
I had posted this comment in the Latin class, but it's applicable here:
   
    "I feel somewhat consoled re: my struggles with Latin grammar on finding out about Plutarch's difficulty with same!!  Looking up background for the Classics discussion I found this from Plutarch himself who, a speaker of Greek, wished to learn Latin for his researchs :  " I was able to follow the meaning of words ..but to understand the various figures and
connections..requires a degree of practice and study which is not easy."

What was true for Plutarch is true for me  - with bells on!!!!


JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #135 on: September 30, 2011, 06:10:14 PM »
On one of the sites giving an overview of Plutarch they mention in awe and wonder about Plutarch's Lives which consists, in the original , of 800,000 words and 1,300 pages of fine print.
I haven't checked those numbers personally but the author of the article felt that this was one of the longest books written by one man in those years.
Though the Odyssey and Illiad are long as well the final opinion as to who really wrote these works and who embroidered on them is till an ongoing discussion.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #136 on: September 30, 2011, 07:50:52 PM »
BABI: thanks for the background on Plutarch. It's very interesting: especially his strengths and weaknesses. I guess we should take his interesting little stories with a grain of salt. but those are what we are going to remember!

JUDE: yes, Plutarch is amazing! 800,000 words! And I suspect they'll be times when we wish he'd cut a few of them out. This first selection is 60 pages. There are parts that are repititious. Feel free to skim. I always say the secret to reading Tolstoy (War and Peace) is creative skimming. We might as well try it with Plutarch as well.

JOANR: so Plutarch's Latin was shaky? That makes me like him even better!

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #137 on: September 30, 2011, 07:54:51 PM »
WELL, HERE WE GO! Tomorrow, actually, but since I live on the West coast and sleep late, by the time I get on the computer, you will already be in the middle of it.

The questions for this week will be in the heading. If they aren't there yet, here they are:

Questions for Week I: Pompey:

1. Someone once saidthat everyone wants either money, fame, or power. Which of these was most important to Pompey? What avenues were open to Romans to acheive these goals? Does this differe from modern society?

2. If Plutarch wrote these lives as moral lessons for the young, what do you feel is his moral assessment of Pompey? What is yours?

3. In a period where there was almost no threat to the Roman Empire from the outside, there was almost constant war. Other than reasons already given , what do you think are the reasons for this? Are there any parallels in modern times?

4. How is the US government based on the Roman Republic. What does Pompey's life tell us about how that Republic worked in practice? How is that different from the way ours works (or is it)? Could our Republic be ended at one stroke as the Roman's was?

5. What does Pompey's life tell us about the role of women in Patrician Roman society?

Now we need a Latin student to give us a nice Latin cheer to start.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #138 on: October 01, 2011, 08:37:54 AM »
 Will we be discussing Pompey here, or going to another site?  I realize I'm on very early, but
I've gotten into the habit of getting my time in before Val needs the computer for her work.
Even on Saturday I get up early.  After all,  Nipper and Smooch still expect to be fed on time. :-\
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91050
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #139 on: October 01, 2011, 11:20:26 AM »
And here's some more background on Plutarch and his writing from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature:
Quote

Plutarch's object is to bring out the moral character in each case, rather than to relate the political events of his time; hence his full treatment of the subject's education and natural disposition, and his relation of anecdotes calculated to reveal the nature of the man, a "light  occasion, word, or some sport which makes men's natural dispositions more plain than the famous battles won, in which ten thousand men may be killed."

Although Plutarch distorts the truth in order to exemplify virtue or vice, in general he is as reliable as his sources, and sometimes very valuable. He shows no bias or unfairness in  his treatment of Greeks and Romans, no flattery of the now dominant power of Rome or vanity in the past glories of his own nation. He believed in the compatibility of Rome the ruler  and Greece the educator.



I love the questions! That #4 is in itself a Pandora's box. Wonderful start!
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

JudeS

  • Posts: 1162
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #140 on: October 01, 2011, 12:41:34 PM »
Greatness has it's roots. These are Pompeys.
Strabo, the father of Pompey, was an accompished General who served in the "Marsic Social Wars".
By age 17 Pompey was active in his father's campaigns and building up his own military career.
Another factor in his rise to power was his natural beauty and resembalance to King Alexander.

Pompey seems like a combo of John Kennedy's charisma (and attractiveness to woman) with the military skills of Eisenhower and Patton. What a rare combination.

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91050
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #141 on: October 01, 2011, 01:22:19 PM »
I think #4  will be a delightful and heated conversation.  In reference to #4, I'd like to put this out for consideration to start the first part anyway of that multi faceted issue:

Quote
One of the regrets of my life is that I did not study Latin. I'm absolutely convinced, the more I understand these eighteenth-century people, that it was that grounding in Greek and Latin that gave them their sense of the classic virtues: the classic ideals of honor, virtue, the good society and their historic examples of what they could try to live up to.


 (David McCullough, Historian and author, on understanding the Founding Fathers).



4. How is the US government based on the Roman Republic.



Very few people realize that our Founding Fathers in this country were rabid and I mean RABID fans of the Roman Republic. To the extent that they founded a secret society giving themselves Roman names. One of George Washington's heroes was Cincinnatus,  a Roman in 458 BC, for whom Cincinnati is named, who turned his sword literally into a plowshare.  If you've been to Mount Vernon and taken in the sound and light show, they repeat this desire of Washington's over and over.

The Founding Fathers  founded this country as close as they could TO those principles, utilizing the structure, the Senate, the House, the Judiciary, the system of checks and balances, it really goes on and on,  and when we read about Pompey, we are reading about the beginning of the  disintegration OF that system.

IS it like America?  You hear SO many people nowadays saying we're just like the Romans and in the free fall they were. I've never understood that. Which Romans?  What period of Roman history do you think most  like America's, a young nation?

The periods of Roman history are:

753 BC:       The  Kings
510 BC:       The Republic
44 BC:         The death of Julius Caesar: Civil War
27 BC till 23 BC:    Octavian rules as consul
23  BC:        Augustus has supreme power and the Empire is established
476 AD:       "The Fall of Rome"
527:             Justinian Emperor in the East

Do people really think that America is going to emerge an Empire with an Emperor?

I am really looking forward to this discussion!
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #142 on: October 01, 2011, 02:17:53 PM »
Welcome, everyone! Down to business at last.  We won't move to a new site, there's a lot of stuff here we might want again.

More shortly.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #143 on: October 01, 2011, 02:51:40 PM »
I am just beginning to realize how much people of the period around the time of our founding fathers admired the men of the classical period and wanted to be like them. For example, I knew that that period in music (Haydn, mozart eg) was called the Classical Period, but not that musicians of that period were trying to imitate what the music of the Greeks might have sounded like.

It's too bad that we are seeing the Republic only as it is starting to disintegrate. I would love to know if anyone has followed this process closely. I'm fascinated by the period in US history just AFTER the revolution, when our founding fathers were worried as to whether this government of ours would remain a republic, or become a dictatorship. Reading Plutarch, I really understand that concern.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #144 on: October 01, 2011, 02:55:58 PM »
You cn see that, as a sociologist, I'm more interestee in the society of the times than in Pompey as a person. It's Plutarch's strength that he gives us both.

If any of you feel buried under all those generals and battles, please don't sweat it. It's the overall picture that's interesting, not who fought who when. A society where armies are running around, fighting all the time, fighting with each other one minute, against each other another. WOW.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #145 on: October 01, 2011, 02:57:30 PM »
For those of you who are new to discussions here:

As you can see, we don't have a very formal structure.  We more or less keep to the time table, there are questions to spark discussions, and we hope to cover the subject reasonably well, but often we follow interesting sidelines.  Anything you want to say, from brilliant insight to minor point or sideline, is welcomed.

Ella Gibbons

  • Posts: 2904
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #146 on: October 01, 2011, 06:26:43 PM »
Minor point!  Yes, I'm amazed that Plutarch could write all this stuff  - did he keep a daily diary?   I have just skimmed a third of Pompey and, as JOANK said I am trying to overlook the battles.  I see Pompey fighting all over the globe, in Africa, Sicily, Rome, wherever.  What great ships they must have had.  He brought elephants back with him but they were too big to get through the city gates.  I smiled at that!

Anyway, what I have skimmed (and that is exactly what it is) I feel Pompey is rather humble, a great warrior, admired by his men.  I don't think he wanted money, he was not interested in the treasure that might have been found in Africa I think it was.  His father was so greedy, so perhaps the son is determined not to be a carbon copy.

But all these battles, thousands involved!  (I'm sure I am getting facts and places mixed up here, good thing we are not in a classroom)

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #147 on: October 01, 2011, 06:55:24 PM »
Yes, Ella, no pop quizzes here on who killed whom.  (My translation of the Iliad actually has an index of who killed whom; it was important to the warriors that they be remembered this way--their compensation for having to die in battle.)

I agree about the ships--and the numbers of them!  Imagine the cost of those huge fleets.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #148 on: October 01, 2011, 07:59:29 PM »
ELLA: you're doing exactly what I hoped you'd do. We'd go nuts if we tried to remember all te details.

" He brought elephants back with him but they were too big to get through the city gates.  I smiled at that!"

I think it's touches like that that make people like Plutarch.

What do you think of the story of Flora the prostitute. Plutarch seems to be using it to show how moral he is.

you're doing exactly what I hoped you'd do. We'd go nuts if we tried to remember all te details.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #149 on: October 02, 2011, 08:31:10 AM »
 That makes a great deal of sense, GINNY. Education in those days always included,
at the higher levels, a sound grounding in Latin and Greek. All the influential
men of that period would have had the same literary background, and similar visions
of what leadership should be.
  I've always understood the unfavorable comparison with Roman history was from
their decline, when Roman citizens expected 'bread and circuses', had lost the
freedoms that had been theirs when a republic, hired mercenaries to do their
fighting, and required more and more violence in the arenas to satisfy their jaded
tastes. 
  Plutarch has high praise for the young Pompey.  Temperance, martial skills, eloquence, integrity of mind, affability.  No wonder everyone loved him.  The kind of man we love to make a
hero.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #150 on: October 02, 2011, 02:36:46 PM »
JoanK, did I read that right about Flora?  Pompey was attentive to her and she would not accommodate one of his friends.  So the friend asked Pompey if he could be with Flora and Pompey said yes?  Then he would not longer converse with Flora.

There’s a lot of detail here – am trying to pick out the major figures.  Caesar, of course.  Sylla (who is also named Sulla) and Pompey.  Both Caesar and Sylla held Pompey in high esteem, though it seems agewise that Sylla was more a contemporary of Pompey’s father Strabo.  Not so Lucullus, who was an enemy.

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #151 on: October 02, 2011, 03:21:29 PM »
BABI: yes, the people really loved him. Perhaps in the same way we "love" sports and movie stars today (although today, we know too much about them to love them unconditionally.

Good, PEDLIN. and some of the figures in the Senate: Cato for example.

EvelynMC

  • Posts: 216
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #152 on: October 02, 2011, 05:39:07 PM »
Well, I just finished reading Pompey.  it seemed to be a loong read.

I guess what he wanted more than anything was fame and the money came along with his victories.

It wasn't clear to me why he and Caesar fought.  They were both Romans, both great military leaders.

So  I read some background information and it said that after the Triumverate, Julia and Sulla died,  and Pompey sided with one politcal faction and Caesar the other.  Over that they had a civil war??  Or was it not a civil war?  

The Romans seemed to argue about everything and constantly fight each other and everyone else. (Just an observation).

Evelyn



JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #153 on: October 02, 2011, 06:30:07 PM »
Very true. Yo me, that's more interesting than details of each fight.

kidsal

  • Posts: 2620
  • Howdy from Rock Springs, WY
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #154 on: October 02, 2011, 11:37:38 PM »
I believe fame was most important to him as evidenced by his desire for a Triumph.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #155 on: October 03, 2011, 08:29:25 AM »
  To get into a little more detail,  despite his great popularity,  of course, that didn’t stop some from trying to grab a chunk of his inheritance when his father died.  Plutarch again praises him for his ‘steadfastness’ and said he gained “great reputation and favor".  I had to raise an eyebrow at the story of  that case,  complete with a proposal from the presiding judge for an engagement between his daughter and Pompey. Plutarch admits that the judge showed him favor in the outcome of his case.   What does surprise me is that Plutarch did not seem to find any of this a discredit to Pompey.
    It’s not accurate, of course, to say that everyone admired and liked our hero.  Someone
was certainly circulating “false suggestions and calumnies” against him in Cinna’s camp.
He decided, probably wisely, to quietly decamp.  Cinna was suspected of having murdered
him, which gave his enemies an opportunity they seized.  One of his centurions killed him,
“to be revenged upon a lawless and wicked tyrant”.  I can't help but wonder how accurate that
story is.  It simply doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing a veteran soldier says in those
circumstances.  It sounds more like what an orator would say; it sounds good.
   Another mild astonishment...how easily a wealthy and popular citizen could raise an army!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #156 on: October 03, 2011, 12:10:03 PM »
“to be revenged upon a lawless and wicked tyrant”.  I can't help but wonder how accurate that
story is.  It simply doesn't sound to me like the sort of thing a veteran soldier says in those
circumstances.  It sounds more like what an orator would say; it sounds good.
It sure does, Babi, either what the historians said, or what Carbo, who replaced Cinna said he said.

Pompey then takes over the anti-Carbo faction.  I love the way this is described: "...Pompey, finding a spirit of government upon him....took the privilege to grant himself full power...."

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10928
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #157 on: October 03, 2011, 01:29:06 PM »
Roshanarose, if you have read Plutarch in the original, it would be very interesting to know how the translation compares.  Does it capture some of the flavor of Plutarch's style, or is it like reading Pope's Homer, where the style is all Pope?

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2011, 06:19:10 PM »
KIDSAL: "I believe fame was most important to him as evidenced by his desire for a Triumph. "

I agree. But doesn't that seem to change later? Maybe you can get bored with fame after awhile.

Babi: "Another mild astonishment...how easily a wealthy and popular citizen could raise an army!"

That hit me, too! All these soldiers wandering around, joining firt one army, then at the drop of a hat, leaving it for another army! They must be what we would now call mercenaries. What's going on?

I've thought about it. First, I'll bet the numbers of soldiers given are exaggerated -- WAY exaggerated.
Second, as I said before, this was a country whose economy was based on warfare, not on manufacture or trade. The only way to bring wealth into the economy was to go and fight for it. So, if you were a young man growing up, what options would you have for an occupation? Soldier or farmer, of course.

And once you're a soldier, if there's no war, you don't make any money (they must have had soldiers permenantly assigned to the conquered lands, but not nearly as many as they needed to conquer it). So you're always looking foe wars to fight.

roshanarose

  • Posts: 1344
Re: Plutarch--October Classics Book Club
« Reply #159 on: October 03, 2011, 09:17:47 PM »
PatH - If only I were able to translate from the original Greek I would be a happy woman.  Modern Greek, well, maybe some.  I wore out my eyes and got a neck problem whilst studying MG.  Now I just browse the occasional word or phrase in Ancient Greek.  And if I have time (?) I may pick up my "Reading Greek" and try to work out how it is different from Modern Greek.  I am currently doing that with Latin.  What I like about Latin is that it has no definite articles, whereas all the Greek types (Attic Greek, Doric Greek, Koine, Katharevousa, and Demotic) have them for every word.  And I mean every word, even your first name.  I think this is how the expression "O King" came into being.  Also Latin doesn't have an accent on every word as Greek does, although we are using them in beginners' class just so we can get used to the pronunciation.  Greek accents also move according to the tense of the verb.  Uuuurghhh.  I love it but it is difficult.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato