-
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/silkroad/silk-road.jpg)
Shadow of the Silk Road
Come on along with us - Monday, March 11
We're joining Colin Thubron on his 7,000 mile journey along the greatest land route on earth. Out of the heart of China into the mountains of Central Asia, across northern Afghanistan and the plains of Iran and into Kurdish Turkey.
| (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mat4mCEuL._SR133,200_.jpg) | Reading Schedule
March 11 - 17..... Pages 1 - 95
March 19 - 24..... Pages 96 - 150
March 25 - 31..... Page 154 - 218
April 1 - 7............ Page 219 - 284
April 8 - 14.......... Page 284 - 344
|
Topics to Note and Discuss1. SARS virus and impact on the author’s journey
2. Inventions spread East and West
3. Behaviors and Values of the Chinese people
4. Characters met along the way
5. Caves and Objects at Dunhuang
6. Religions and Places of Worship found along the way
7. The various means of Transportation
8. Add any additional 'Legends and Myths' of Ruins, Monuments, Tribes and Historical Individuals
|
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
-
欢迎来到丝绸之路的阴影 - Huānyíng lái dào sīchóu zhī lù de yīnyǐng
Welcome to the Shadow of the Silk Road
Hi everyone - are y'all looking forward to the journey - he sure travels across lots of land that we seldom heard about until the wars in Afghan and the Chinese pushing monks out of Tibet - I'm still remembering the movie with Ronald Coleman about the hidden Tibet, Lost Horizon. I remember how everyone in the theater took a deep breath when his love interest followed and turned decrepitly old as she crossed the footbridge. Now, there is no one who has not heard of the Dali Lama.
I'm reading this along with y'all so that I too can be in awe, curious and excited over learning as we travel on this armchair venture - Colin Thubron sure has written many books about mostly this part of the world - I've already on my list the one about Tibet.
Ok please - one favor - if and when you post any photos - please keep them limited to a width of 450 - we are OK with length if the photo is narrow and long however please get the photo to fit on a screen and best is to preview what it looks like and then make the adjustment to the width and do not include the length.
in order not to have this example give instructions I will talk it out
[img, then a space, Width=450]http://here is where you put the HTML[/img]all you need to close it off is the simple [/img]
Ok I know there are several early birds so this conversation is open - tra la -
-
Marking my spot. I haven't started reading yet.
-
What an interesting book! I don't know if it is my poor brain but I am not finding it easy to read. Usually I read a hard copy version, but because I can change the print size, I am using my kindle. Another nice feature is the way I can define words as I read them. As part of world history I taught the history of China in two chapters, not a lot of depth. I have little exposure to most of the areas the author will travel through. The story of the Yellow Emperor makes me wonder how much we teach as history is really myth and vice versa. It will be a gorgeous day here in Sarasota. Looking forward to a day-long visit with family.
-
I am reading this on my iPhone so I too can change the size of the print. Who is the Yellow Emporer?
-
Karen and Annie never dawned on me to change the size of the print when reading on the kindle - good idea - obvious but for some reason I just did not think.
Yes, the book opens sounding almost poetic doesn't it rather than drilling down into the language typical to a travel memoir.
Now to find out more about this Yellow Emperor - I had heard of the Yellow Emperor but had no idea he was a myth and then, who is this Wudi who founded the Temple - 2000 years ago - Wow that is back when Jesus walked this earth and the trees are older. I didn't think trees lasted that long.
You do have to wonder don't you Karen about what is myth and what is not - been reading about our own history and wow the myths we were taught in school and shocking to me still believed so that well known TV folks carry on these myths -
Ok I'll be back later - have a few errands to run and then to look into the Yellow Emperor and Wudi.
-
| (https://anunnakiawakening.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/yellow_emperor1.jpg) | Yellow Emperor
He was viewed as a historical figure and cultural hero of Chinese civilization.
Traditional birthdate: 2704 B.C. He is said to have ruled 100 years from 2697-2597 B.C.
He is credited with teaching human beings to build shelters, tame animals, build the bow and sling, and cultivate the five traditional Chinese cereal crops. He was said to have created crown of Chinese kingship and the traditional royal thrones used by kings. He taught the people astronomy, mathematical calculation, created the first calendar, gave the people a code of sound laws, and created the Chinese version of football. He is said to have inspired an early Chinese historian to create the first version of Chinese character writing.
One of his wives taught the people to weave baskets, farm silk worms and spin silk, and dye clothing. He is viewed as the founder of the Chinese central state and Taoism.
He was given the Tao philosophy and told how it could create a harmonious, cultured, and self-sufficient civilization aligned with the laws of the Universe. Upon his return, he began implementing what he had learned in his empire.
He was extraterrestrial or had connections to extraterrestrials. He was said to have four faces that allowed him gaze in the four directions and know all that was going on in the world. He had the ability to communicate directly with the “gods” in his prayers and meditations. He was said to be accompanied by tigers, snakes, wolves, and flocks of fabled phoenix birds wherever he went.
For more than 3500 years, he was viewed as an historical figure and not mythological. During the Warring States Period, he was mythologized by one of the warring clans and this was latched onto by modern scholars who have sought to mythologize him. During the Cultural Revolution the aim was modernizing and liberalizing Chinese culture viewing anything associated with the old patrilineal system as evil. The Yellow Emperor was a virtual symbol of that history. |
-
Interesting - after his death the Yellow Emperor became an immortal and Xian, is the word meaning an immortal. This first city where Colin Thubron starts his journey is Xian.
In the Taoist mythology of China, the Xian are a group of eight immortal characters who at one time lived as humans on earth. The Xian are said to travel the universe together in a state of perfect health and happiness. They perform various wonders and miracles and serve as models for those seeking the Tao, or way—the path to an ideal state of being and existence.
Read more: http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Wa-Z/Xian.html#ixzz5hu1Y7Hy4
OH my there are the Eight Immortals and also Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove.
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Wa-Z/Xian.html
Well well well - Wudi is not a person at all but a time period
"The so-called "Three Augusts" and "Five Emperors" (sanhuang wudi 三皇五帝) were persons in early Chinese mytholgy. The "Five Emperors" or "Five Sovereigns" (wudi 五帝) were often seen as worldly, yet historically not tangible, rulers, while the Three Augusts ever had a more divine nature. The term wudi came up during the Warring States period 戰國 (5th cent.-221 BCE), while the term "Three Augusts" was created in the 3rd centry BCE. This trinity was chronologially antedated to the Five Emperors during the Han period 漢 (206 BCE-220 CE)."
-
Ah we have sound - Epic Chinese Music - The Yellow Emperor - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gys7VCXmObs
-
I'll have to pass on the music until tomorrow when I get on my laptop again. I removed the external speakers from this machine because Shan was perpetually back there tangling himself up and pulling things off the desk.
There are a couple of things that got my attention when reading the first chapter. One was that the author states that the Huns and Turks managed to get to China, early on. Another was his statement, "The father of China was not Chinese at all." Then there is the inscription he saw that refers to the Yellow Emperor as "dragon-rider". I have not reat much fantasy but I did like Eragon and The Dragon-Riders of Pern. Of course I might just be a little partial to dragons since I am half Welsh.
-
frybabe that was on explanation that some of my Chinese clients explained to me - Unlike Egyptian, Greek, Roman or Christian dragons that were fierce, either guarding the sacred or representing evil, the Chinese and Japanese hold the dragon in high regard. Dragons symbolize power, happiness, and fertility and are believed to bring good fortune and wealth. The paper dragon during festivals represents happiness and fertility.
I've heard of the red dragon in Chinese culture but need to find it and yes, I can visualize the Welsh flag with the Red dragon on a field of white.
Found this - I like this site all about Chinese dragons
https://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/article-chinese-dragons.htm
frybabe are the dragons in fantasy novels fierce or benevolent?
-
Barb, fantasy novel dragons can have any sort of qualities, just like other characters, though I think they're more often good than bad. In Eragon and the Pern books, the dragons and their riders form strong bonds, the dragons helping their riders. Terry Pratchett used dragons for comic relief.
-
I can see I'm going to have to take notes to keep places and characters straight. And trade goods too. Already I'm being surprised at what was invented where. Stirrups, for instance. I didn't know they came from China. Or think of the fact that you couldn't be a knight in armor without something to hold your feet in place.
-
The Yellow Emperor appears in the first chapter, and it's a nice touch when the author realizes that the father of China wasn't Chinese, just an invading nomad.
-
thanks Pat for the bit on fantasy dragons - I love to read myths, fables and fairy tales but just never did get into many adult fantasy novels - I've seen book covers featuring dragons but had no clue if they were evil or not.
Yes, keeping them all straight - he sure gives us a history lesson doesn't he - I'm almost tempted to get a copy for my kindle so that I can have access to a way for quick note saving and defining all these folks and places.
It is hard to realize there was a cultural and political center in China 3,000 years before Hellenistic Greece since Xi'an became a cultural and political center of China in 11th century BC.
I'm trying to figure out - it appears there is this huge monumental building and grounds devoted to the Yellow Emperor and maybe this is housed behind these huge entry buildings - but this photo and description sounds more like the description Colin uses describing the tomb of the Yellow Emperor since the photo caption talks about the ancient cypress around the mausoleum.
(http://www.china.org.cn/images/114579.jpg)
This shows the entire area for the Tomb of the Yellow Emperor and maybe the mausoleum is behind the large building where the grove of trees show in this shot
(http://ihxian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Tomb-of-the-Yellow-Emperor.jpg)
-
another tid bit - the web site for Xian lists as sights a bell tower and a drum tower - and this bit "In contrast to the Bell Tower, where bell was stricken at dawn, drum was beat at sunset to indicate the end of the day. On the Drum Tower's first floor, lies a hall which hangs many large drums. Each was decorated with intrinsic and beautiful Chinese writing, which symbolizes good fortune."
Could you just imagine as the sun sets hearing drums - I guess today when you think of it the roar of 5: traffic is our drum celebrating sunset. ;)
-
Well now I am confused - an earlier link said Wudi was a time of the Warring States and now I find a link that says there was an Emperor Wudi, who was the seventh emperor of the Han Dynasty and after his death the Han dynasty went into decline. Emperor Wu of Han, born as Liu Che. He ruled the empire from 141 to 87 BC. Emperor Wu inherited the Han empire when he was 15. - I wonder if he was Emperor of one of the Warring States that said the Yellow Emperor was a myth.
-
Barb, have you seen this site? Lots of info. According to this site, Haung Di (the Yellow Emperor) was of the Xia Dynasty. The Zhou Dynasty is associated with the Xia. http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Myth/personshuangdi.html
Here is another website that has more views of the mausoleum and cypress trees. http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/atam/115072.htm PLEASE NOTE: anyone who is squeamish about linking to a Chinese site might want to bypass this one.
-
Reading the first link frybabe and the Yellow Emperor sure sounds like a historical figure - there were many kings and Emperors that brought magnificent changes to their society and where a few of his gifts seem outlandish it reminds me of the Frankish King Clovis that I mentioned in the library - he is the one who married the Burgundian wife and crushed the Alemanni and the Visigoths and held back the Ostrogoths - well get this - He and all his sons inherit the belief that the blood in their veins gave them magical powers. They could make crops grow by walking in a field, interpret bird songs and the calls of the wild beasts, and they were invincible in battle provided, they did not cut their hair. Any more magical than the virtues ascribed to the Yellow Emperor?
As the European story goes, Clovis converted to Christianity however, that did not stop him from continuing to murder and plunder with no moral scruples. This continues for a couple of hundred years till his family goes into decline along with these magical powers. Then the bastard son of Pepin the fat, Charles Martel comes on the scene and in order to get the people to see his son, PepinIII as king, they are Carolingian, he gets the Pope to not only support PepinIII, the son, but to crown him king announcing God's blood is stronger then the blood of the Merovingian Franks. And that is the beginning of the Popes and Kings tied to each other's hips'. Amazing what folks believed before the world was round ;)
Which reminds me, somewhere in all this reading was a statement that the Han Dynasty lost its importance and went into decline - I remember reading about that a few years ago and it seems the uniches stealthily took over all the power and the infighting among them did in the entire court. Seems anyone around the King was a unich.
-
Ah so the Yellow Emperor has tombs in several locations - two tombs built in Shaanxi, in addition to others in Henan, Hebei and Gansu provinces.
The photos on the website are the same as I found and posted one here so maybe that mausoleum is one of the tombs in Shaanxi since there are two.
I thought the entire bit about the change Colin notices in H'an a replica of what has happened here in Austin which makes me think I've heard this from others who live in other cities - reminded me of some of the memories shared by my grandmother before there were motor vehicles - I'm thinking all over the world we are going through not only physical and architectural changes but cultural change - instant communication around the globe has given folks a window into everyday life in just about every nation. Interesting the pace of the young nervous and directed. I'm seeing not so much nervous but rather buried in their Iphone so that their entire world is in that device.
Have you ever sat in a park and just watched as Colin notices the older folks doing? Is there major change happening where you live?
-
Sort of off the reading but found this and had to share -
Daqin is the ancient Chinese name for the Roman Empire or, depending on context, the Near East, especially Syria. Chinese historians defined it as "the Roman Empire, or rather that part of it which alone was known to the Chinese, Syria". In various texts its capitals were given as Antioch and Constantinople, with no clear descriptions of the city of Rome. Its basic facets such as laws, customs, dress, and currency were explained.
Chinese sources describe several ancient Roman embassies arriving in China, beginning in 166 AD and lasting into the 3rd century. These early embassies were said to arrive by a maritime route via the South China Sea in the Chinese province of Jiaozhi (now northern Vietnam). Archaeological evidence such as Roman coins points to the presence of Roman commercial activity in Southeast Asia.
The first of these embassies is recorded in the Book of Later Han as having arrived by sea in 166 AD. Its members claimed to be representatives of the Daqin ruler "Andun", either Antoninus Pius or his co-emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, and offered gifts to the court of Emperor Huan of Han.
-
The first map in the book shows the Silk Road ending at Antioch. This is the first I've heard that the Romans made it to Southeast Asia via a sea route, but I have read that they may have reached the coast of India.
As far as the Silk Road is concerned, most of my reading has just involved areas of Persian to Tibet that where the British, French, and Russians (I think the Germans were in there too, a little) were intriguing during the mid 1800s to the early 1900s, the Brits trying to preserve exclusive trade rights in India and the others trying to gain trade with India.
-
The thoughts shared on page 50 really hit me - two in particular - "You can't relate Chinese life in English language. Because nothing really translates. Not culture, politics or even the everyday. The words don't fit. The concepts aren't there." followed by "The foundation of language is thought." Putting those two thoughts together it strikes me that even speaking English growing up in different cultural environments how easy it is to be talking past each other. The concept that language is thought opened my mind - such a simple realization.
And then on that same page the Li Bai verse I realized that is our life - we start in waters from our mother's womb rather than, the Yellow River, leap down from Heaven - not sure about heaven but, as innocent of all preconceptions with only the fear of falling, open to any influence, we are born, I doubt leaping but some babies do come quickly, then our life rolls us to the sea and true we never return again - we do not even backtrack on our roll to the sea.
Did any of his visits with these various travel contacts and old friends make a particular impression on you frybabe. Pat and Karen were y'all affected by reading about these various travel contacts?
I'm enchanted with Colin's writing - this is a joy to read - almost lyrical - the conversation about the various religions in the ancient Christian tower was another that was thought provoking. Had no idea that a form of Christianity reached China hundreds of years before the Jesuits arrived. Forgot how early Christianity had nothing to do with Latin and used the Syriac language.
I still have 30 more pages to read - this first week is the longest read but it all flowed as an extended stay in China. The following weeks the reads are only around 64 to 65 pages each week. I'll finish up reading this evening - lots of errands today.
-
The Wheel of the Law (dharmachakra) is the single most important symbol of Buddhism, denoting the Buddha's First Sermon in the forest at Sarnath, where he set Buddhist Law (dharma) in motion.
Deer Park in Benares was the place where Buddha first caused the Wheel of the Good Law to revolve.
Wheel of Law and Deer of Benares
(http://a4.pbase.com/o6/24/427024/1/75226783.qFWFCQa3.XIMG_3264.jpg)
-
Zhangye Buddha
(http://www.visitourchina.com/FileUpload/china-photos/cities/zhangye/giant-buddha-temple/354-8.JPG)
-
Wow - the Hanging temple of Matisi a youtube exploring many rooms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3RQAj8xdlU
(https://t4.ftcdn.net/jpg/01/67/33/19/240_F_167331910_aHYN95rx1iyDrf2PZyTkPQLGJPdLDJ5d.jpg)
-
youtube of First Pass under Heaven where a few or starting their 4000 mile journey along the Great Wall
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE47W3BO5qw
-
Taklamakan caves and Taklamakan desert outside Dunhuang| (http://www.seattleartmuseum.org/AssetsExhibitions/dunhuang/dunhuang-caves-630px.jpg) | (http://dunhuang.mtak.hu/img/12_1_211-large.jpg) |
-
Once again, I am downstairs on my speakerless computer. Will check out the YouTube this afternoon. Looks interesting. Don't think I've heard of the hanging temple before. I didn't get any reading done yesterday what with appointments and working on taxes, so I am still just at the starting point.
-
Xiwangmu, (Chinese: “Queen Mother of the West”), in Daoist mythology of China, queen of the immortals in charge of female genies (spirits) who dwell in a fairyland called Xihua (“West Flower”). Tradition describes the queen as a former mountain spirit transformed into a beautiful woman from a quasi-human with a leopard’s tail and tiger’s teeth. Her fairyland garden was filled with rare flowers, extraordinary birds, and the flat peach (pantao) of immortality.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Detail_of_Xie_Wenli%27s_painting_of_Xi_Wangmu.jpg/250px-Detail_of_Xie_Wenli%27s_painting_of_Xi_Wangmu.jpg)
-
Frybabe I just finding these photos - the youtube shows the average person living in the area and are remarkably alike the description Colin shares in his travels - the whole thing on the Romans in a losing battle where a few either escaped or were kept as slaves show up in the features, hair and eye coloring to this day in the area. Amazing... Evidently this took battle took place even before we learned they sent ambassadors, I think that was in 168AD - the battle where they formed their turtle protection was supposed to be 200 years before that.
I'm really anxious to get to that part of the book and share your thoughts and what you know of this Roman invasion
-
Barb, I don't know much about it, even forgot about it. I heard about Roman battle where they ended up going East, but I don't remember where, nor do I remember anything but a that it was a only a sentence or two about this may have happened.
-
thanks frybabe - it would be interesting to get the story from the Roman side but since it was wholesale slaughter maybe there is no history of this battle so far east in the annals of Roman History.
-
I'm not too far into the section either, maybe a third, but I'm really enjoying it. It's so rich, and there's so much to keep straight, and I haven't yet followed all those links. Something Barb quoted particularly struck me:
The thoughts shared on page 50 really hit me - two in particular - "You can't relate Chinese life in English language. Because nothing really translates. Not culture, politics or even the everyday. The words don't fit. The concepts aren't there." followed by "The foundation of language is thought." Putting those two thoughts together it strikes me that even speaking English growing up in different cultural environments how easy it is to be talking past each other. The concept that language is thought opened my mind - such a simple realization.
Yes, I think that's very true. I'm not sure which comes first--you think the way your language lets you, or you construct your language to fit the way you think, or both.
An example: Hungay has produced a surprising number of mathematicians, and this is said to be because the logic of the language is mathematical. One of my daughters did a math semester abroad in Budapest, and said that whether or not it's cause and effect, the language logic fits.
-
Speaking of Roman presence in the Indian Ocean, Amazon sent me this ad:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1526738074?ref=em_1p_1_im&ref_=pe_3730140_399512490 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1526738074?ref=em_1p_1_im&ref_=pe_3730140_399512490)
You have to scroll down a way to reach the description.
-
Oh my goodness Pat - the link opened pandora's box of books - on and on - I've enough books saved for over a year's reading - these various ancient groups - the various names and stories that you hear mentioned now and again are all there with book after book that I had never known or accessed - wow - did you see the one about the Magyard origins and how they are now stepping back from the language connection with Finno-Ugrian origins leaning toward Indo-Iranian and Sanskrit - the one that has me by the heals is a large tome that may only sum things rather getting into the nitty-gritty but at this juncture that may work best By Steppe, Desert, and Ocean: The Birth of Eurasia - I also need to understand the difference between the Sumerians and the Assyrians. Then there is the Viking beginnings and still more of the European early groups not even touching Russia - wow - feel like I need another life to get a grasp on all this because there is still so much literature I have on my list.
Years back I remember finding a children's book - wish I got it or at least saved its name - but an elderly woman decided to sell up and move to a country cottage where she could devote all her time to reading and not have to care for guests, house and garden - so up she moves and then, instead of being free to read all her books she ends up with all sorts of animals that not only surround the house but of course get into the attic and the chimney and under the floorboards and so she is as busy as she was in town only now, taking care of wild life instead of cooking, house and garden.
I am so glad to hear that you, Pat and frybabe are still reading - I rushed through and now I can go back and look further into the areas that I did not take time to pursue - fascinated with the idea of the early Christians that were talked about when he was climbing the tower - want to better locate where that tower is located and more about the version of Christianity practiced - sounded to me like they were a part of the group that saw Jesus as man with a Godly shadow so to speak - that view sure gives an explanation for dying as he did on the Cross.
-
Barb, I got to the paragraphs in Chapter 4 about the Roman settlement near Yongchang. I think that was mentioned in one of those old video travelogues (don't remember whose) following the Silk Road. Some of it sounds familiar. Mostly I just remember the Celtic family that was dug up and analyzed. The Roman defeat in the battle that Crassus commanded and died at is considered one of the big military blunders in their history. The Teutoberg Forrest massacre tops that list.
I am finding bits and pieces of interest in this book, but it is not as interesting to me as I expected. I can't quite put a finger on the discomfort, but it might be that the author seems a bit depressed by or apprehensive about what he sees today vs what he remembers from his visit 30 years ago. He is expressing a disconnect between the past: ancient, his last visit, and now.
-
Frybabe I'm thinking he has captured the disquiet many of us feel regardless where we live - the world has made a shift in the last 30 years - I know here in Austin we have a facebook page, titled something, I remember Austin, and it is filled with the nostalgia for all the place that have disappeared, iconic Austin restaurants, shops, churches, hospitals, even schools that have disappeared in the last 30 years plus, the huge influx of people from outside the state that have substantially changed even our politics so that the town now has reached the tipping point of more from outside the state or area than home grown - reading this I think that is what he is noticing. The new China left this part of China in the dust. As a traveler, looking at monuments to the past and knowing the historical importance of the area it is dismaying to observe.
I can find nothing that further explains these 'bolts' that were successful against the Roman army - it appears whatever they were they must have been on or the actual arrow tip - what kind of material would the Parthia's cavalry have that Rome did not have?
The affect of SAARs on his trip is not hitting me as much as the various captions about the book make it important - maybe because it is now history. Also I think he is noting the affect of the Cultural Revolution had and continues to have as people lost their culture in that purge. Being such a traditionally motivated nation I think his depression is matching the lack of caring he sees all around him. He is still very curious and there seems to be less melancholy once he reaches these northern mountains where there is snow on the ground.
The history of how these places, essentially robbed by westerners of the scrolls and other artifacts feels like a sting just reading about it - have no idea where these scrolls and artifact are today because most of it took place before WWII by men who lived in the very areas of Europe that experienced the worst of the war. So much world history has been destroyed. Early, we read how even the Chinese leaders burnt their past. A poignant conversation he creates with one of the characters in a wall painting and himself that recaps the difference in what we value, what we ultimately wish could happen and what is reality - the other view seems to accept that it makes no difference what is lost, what was, we all die - in other words what and why are we hanging onto anything.
Interesting perspective since I'm at that stage in life where I have too much and the grands do not want it and my children have everything they want and need and yet, I'm having difficulty letting go.
-
So far learned that the Nestorians were part of the Assyrian Christians - an Apostolic Catholic Church - in other words started by some of the apostles. Nice brief history including their sojourn east into China... https://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches/holy-apostolic-catholic-assyrian-church-of-the-east
-
OK here we go - the history of what happened in a very brief comment at the beginning of this web site -
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nestorian_Christianity
Missionaries of the Assyrian Church of the East spread Nestorianism throughout Persia and Central and East Asia. "Nestorian" Christianity reached China by 635, and penetrated Mongolia and Korea. Its relics can still be seen in Chinese cities such as Xi'an.
-
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/silkroad/silk-road.jpg)
Shadow of the Silk Road
Come on along with us - Monday, March 11
We're joining Colin Thubron on his 7,000 mile journey along the greatest land route on earth. Out of the heart of China into the mountains of Central Asia, across northern Afghanistan and the plains of Iran and into Kurdish Turkey.
| (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mat4mCEuL._SR133,200_.jpg) | Reading Schedule
March 11 - 17..... Pages 1 - 95
March 19 - 24..... Pages 96 - 150
March 25 - 31..... Page 154 - 218
April 1 - 7............ Page 219 - 284
April 8 - 14.......... Page 284 - 344
|
Topics to Note and Discuss1. SARS virus and impact on the author’s journey
2. Inventions spread East and West
3. Behaviors and Values of the Chinese people
4. Characters met along the way
5. Caves and Objects at Dunhuang
6. Religions and Places of Worship found along the way
7. The various means of Transportation
8. Add any additional 'Legends and Myths' of Ruins, Monuments, Tribes and Historical Individuals
|
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
-
Frybabe, about the author's mood: he seems upbeat when just interacting with people, and apprehensive when thinking about the system.
One bit that particularly struck me on p 27, Hu Ji tells a story from the Tang dynasty, then says "You know, in China we have no tradition of respect for human life. It's simply not in our past......That is our problem: inhumanity."
A Chinese friend of mine said something similar. We were talking about some political situation in China, probably Tienanmen Square, and he said that in guessing what the government would do, one should never forget how cheap life is held in China. I believe this is true on an institutional level, but not on a personal level, and Thubron says much the same thing.
-
That IS depressing in all kinds of ways. It doesn't help that I just read of a truly disgusting atrocity (to my modern mind) which involved not punishing adults (civilian towns overrun during a war raid) but by feeding their children through a threshing machine. And this from Emperor Nicephores of the supposedly Christian Byzantine Empire, not the "barbarians". Of course, the outcome of such raids is often that every living thing, including livestock, dies. The Bulgars, especially, liked to move and resettle entire communities of people to lands far from their homes. I think that was in part to try and break up local alliances. Now I have to look up what threshing machines looked like back in the early 800s. The only thing I can think of is hand winnowing.
Okay, I forgot the horse or oxen trampling trough the grain to separate the grain from the stem. So what does this mean? That they threw the toddlers under the hooves of the animals?
-
Thanks Pat for uploading the heading - I missed it last night with those last few posts...
Interesting yes, how cheaply held were humans - I remember the last Olympics held in China and their message was they were so many people that people in China do what machines do elsewhere - I've always been taken back when I read how mostly priests but those in Ireland who were killed when Britain struck anyone who was Catholic and even in Britain this quartering of people that for awhile was done before they were dead. Sheesh - And these atrocities taking place where they did appear to value life - or at least life among a those one step above peasants.
I worked with a Chinese couple a couple of years ago who were moving from Philly and while cleaning out to make the move she finds the death certificate for her oldest child that she was told was born dead. A girl - she checks into it - the child lived for 3 days and she even finds the grave secreted from her for 18 years but known by her husband and his mother - and this is the 21st century.
A threshing machine from the 800s - hmm - do you think frybabe, the author took 'poetic' license to get across his point? I can imagine though children being thrown in with animals or in rivers or down wells or just cut in two which as gruesome as it sounds cutting up lots of children take time and is a bit more emotional for those doing the slaying so better the animals do it.
Isn't there some South American group that each year there is a man chosen who knows he has one year to live and then there is a secret ceremony in the mountains on a certain day at exactly sunrise and he is killed as an offering to the Gods and then the mass of people sing to the sun - remember seeing a PBS show and the guy filming was not allows to witness and they did everything to keep him away. Do you think there is a bit of Jeffrey Dahmer in all of us - I just cannot imagine but it seems that people enacting the unthinkable still happens. Just a dozen years ago hearing the antics of the CIA makes me question how to define humanity. Then there is the whole issue of sexual warfare on girls - it just goes on and on doesn't it.
Remember just recently learning how all these eunuchs were simply stuck in sand after castration and more died than lived - nearly all history in the East from Turkey to Japan talks about eunuchs in court or in the army or as guards - over just one century there were thousands of eunuchs so how many boys and young men lost their lives over several centuries. While reading I've chosen for the most part to pass over quickly the parts that do not make me feel good - I decided not to dwell on that dark because I can so quickly go into the dark side of life and then I'm a couple of weeks done for - now the big happenings like war or something very removed I can deal with but there are many that just hit me the wrong way and I decided a few years ago to just keep going.
-
Not sure where y'all are reading - tomorrow we start the next section that is a much shorter read - I just read the first two pages of the next read and realized how much easier and quicker - I think the rhythm of his writing has set in so that it does not feel as jerky.
If y'all need another day or so I think we can work it out and still read this weeks 54 pages - this first week we bulldozed into Colin's travels through eastern China, meeting many people with different stories and background history although, all Chinese in nature. The trip read was 97 pages which gave us a good indoctrination into what Colin and China is about - astonishing to me is when I looked up, using the Google Map, the trip is only half way into China and this next section, although the southern route is still on the map north of Tibet. Now I'm wondering does he turn south into Tibet or continue on into the gigantic province of Xinjiang and then on to Central Asia - the area of the world I'm most anxious to read about.
Until reading this I forgot all about SAARs - need to look it up - I remember it being a big scare but forgot how the disease manifested itself and what damage it did to those who contracted the disease. The health patrol keeps popping up even in the first page of this next section.
OK happy reading - sun may be out here but it is still cold. I'm going nowhere today... in fact, it is still a hot chocolate day for me... I need 70s to feel free of reading blankets or in-house heavy sweatshirts.
-
Take a look at this page, click on #7 - Southern Silk Road. I was especially interested in the asbestos mine area. http://ken-in-china.blogspot.com/ Oh, and Ken mentions the book. He went through there a year after Thurbin did. You can see how rugged the terrain is.
-
wow frybabe I hit the link on top that said Classic and the photos - wow and wow again - wonderful to really get a sense of what it is like - great link thanks for sharing - frybabe who is Ken - someone you know or a lucky find crawling through the internet?
-
I just found it while browsing a search on the Yellow Emperor. I don't know who Ken is, but my best guess, since he was a student at Yunnan Normal University in Kunming, is he was there to further his studies in the Chinese language and culture. The university has a few programs open to international students. He has a few photos of himself down the page. Look for Feb 20-Me Doing Stuff. He doesn't give a bio.
-
Frybabe and Barb, the twin queens of finding good stuff on the Internet.
-
I've made a discovery while reading the book about the first Bulgarian Empire, I discovered that the Romans, and much of the Near East knew about asbestos, including the lung disease that plagued asbestos miners. The Romans, used asbestos for a ton of things, including armor padding/lining, tablecloths and napkins, and hair nets. Common advise at the time was not to buy slaves who had worked the asbestos mines because they didn't live long.
-
Frybabe will get caught up tonight - been down for 3 days now - or rather living in the bathroom for 3 days and we finally figured it was the new meds I was taking for, of all things to cause a problem it is meds for my eyes. The doctor has seen more problems with meds in the past 2 years and he is convinced because so much of it is put into pill form in China and they do not have the control. Turns out much of packaged meds, prescription or otherwise are made in small home labs, like piece work and sent to the factory that is responsible - anyhow stopped taking the meds yesterday and feeling some better today so I can back to living. I'll be back tonight.
-
Barb, that is not encouraging news about the med being made in China and the way they do it.
-
It's very discouraging. Glad you're getting better, Barb.
-
I am back on the Silk Road and parked at Khotan at the moment. While looking up more information about Khotan, I immediately discovered Aurel Stein. A man of many talents, Stein is described as an archaeologist, ethnographer, geographer, linguist, and a professor. He wrote two books specifically on Khotan: The Sand-Buried Ruins of Khotan (1904) and Ancient Khotan: Detailed Report of Archaeological Explorations in Chinese Turkestan 2 volumes. (1907). He was an "active-player" in The Great Game, according to Wikipedia, though I don't remember his name mentioned in the books I read on the subject. He certainly would have been ideal and was in India as early as 1887, and between 1900 and 1930 made four expeditions into Central Asia. I remember Kashgar being mentioned in some of the books I read, but not Khotan. Stein died in Kabul at the age of 80.
-
I knew nothing about this 'pit' of 1500 mummies did you Frybabe? At first when I was reading I was not sure what he was talking about and thought they were open air skeletons or bodies that because of sand and dry conditions still showed them as full bodies - took some research starting with the town mentioned before I could land on what these mummies are all about -
This is the Oldest mummy from 1800 BC - goodness the oldest Egyptian mummy is from 3000 BC and so this technique of burying the dead must have spread - still older are the Chinchorro mummies from South America dated around 7020 BC
The oldest Tarim mummy found along the southern edge of the Tarim Basin, in Khotan, Niya, and Cherchen
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Xinjiang_Uygur_Autonomous_Region_Museum_Urumqi_Xinjiang_China_%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86_%E4%B9%8C%E9%B2%81%E6%9C%A8%E9%BD%90_%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E7%BB%B4%E5%90%BE%E5%B0%94%E8%87%AA%E6%B2%BB%E5%8C%BA%E5%8D%9A%E7%89%A9%E9%A6%86_-_panoramio_%282%29.jpg/320px-Xinjiang_Uygur_Autonomous_Region_Museum_Urumqi_Xinjiang_China_%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86_%E4%B9%8C%E9%B2%81%E6%9C%A8%E9%BD%90_%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E7%BB%B4%E5%90%BE%E5%B0%94%E8%87%AA%E6%B2%BB%E5%8C%BA%E5%8D%9A%E7%89%A9%E9%A6%86_-_panoramio_%282%29.jpg)
-
Found the book on Amazon frybabe - looks like you can get a kindle copy for only $1.99
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/713XmBSjirL._AC_UL436_.jpg)
-
No kindle copy for Ancient Khotan: Detailed Report of Archaeological Explorations in Chinese Turkestan 2 volumes. Looks like the least expensive is a paperback for $2.69 plus delivery.
-
Found a photo of the baby mummy he speaks about on page 112
(http://silkroads.qc.cuny.edu/files/2016/02/mair-2.jpg)
-
tamarisk tree
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/99/31/f5/9931f5e969f0ab9afd82f3d31054c268.jpg)
-
Back to the mummies - 'a' photo must be what he was describing with the pilings or I think he called them wooden props
(https://media.springernature.com/lw785/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12863-015-0237-5/MediaObjects/12863_2015_237_Fig2_HTML.gif)
-
Barb, I only heard about one family of tartan wearing, red-haired mummies. I had no idea that there was such a fair sized population living today.
-
Evidently from archeologists and now DNA for just over 100 of the mummies they have determined these were people from eastern Eurasia and far western Asia that probably came down - Oh I forgot the names of the rivers but they ran from the north near Russia and Finland south near this area. And then they were saying something about the Tartans that were not so much Chinese but Eurasian - there is a book about the Steppes being the cradle of civilization for the west - Tempted but it is not a cheapie - need to see if the library has anything.
Found the author of your book on Bulgaria frybabe, and he wrote another interesting book on the history of the first and another on the second Crusade - the book you have does not appear to be available to buy - I did find a freebee Kindle copy of the history of Bulgaria by William Miller that I downloaded. Problem my eyes are getting too big for my reading curiosity, so I do not know when I will get to it.
As to our introduction to this far eastern part of what is now China - I'm thinking that most students or ancient history were either not knowledgeable of this part of the world or they were not getting their story included in the annuals of history - I found a youtube videos of a book I recently ordered because I was amazed to learn that history included a collapse of Civilization in 1177BC - what I'm noticing as I get into this, the definition of Civilization only included the area of Northern Africa, Southern Europe and the Middle East - there is no inclusion of India or China much less this area of the Steppes. There is mention of Afghanistan and so why not China.
Here is one of the youtube talks on the Collapse of Civilization 1177 BC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyry8mgXiTk
I wonder if a portion of these mummies in Tarim died because of starvation during this time of drought in 1177 BC. although the area seems pretty arid, so what do animals eat in these deserts - we hear from the young man he met in the cordoned off area for SARS isolation that it only rains twice a year. I guess during a drought there may be no rain - I know that one - we had a 3 to 4 year drought here in Texas that started about 6 years ago. Now we have so much rain we do not know to handle it. However, during the second year of the drought family in South Texas got rid of all their cattle. The Tarim area sounds like it is 95% sheep and so was this drought world wide and if so, what did the sheep eat, did the sheep die and was there starvation - next question what were all the invasions from various tribes in this area - hmm maybe I will end up reading the book about the history of the horse and wheel from the Steppes shaped our world.
-
I was looking at Dr. Cline's book a while ago, and even had it on my Audible wishlist, but didn't buy it yet.
I found this 200 page paper on Proto-Bulgarians which includes material from Chinese sources beginning on page 60. I went looking because I wanted to find out if the Uighur are the same group mentioned by various spellings in Runciman's book. These were sometimes allies, sometimes enemies. The Bulgarians actually controlled a large area for a while, including Armenia. Other sources the author of the paper uses include Armenia, and Russia. He is a great pains to parse out the various spellings of names for the same groups, trying to decipher their movements and influence across Eastern Europe and Central Asia. Lots of references included at the end of each section.
https://ia800108.us.archive.org/27/items/wojnikov_mail_PRBG/PRBG.pdf
-
Goodness in just the first few pages there is so many opinions it is difficult to follow - I'm thinking it is probably DNA that is going to straighten out where the Bulgarians originated - I'm also picking up the history is about the area AD and not BC
I bet there is no comprehensive history of Europe, Eurasia, the Mediterranean and Asia that could offer a time line with the movement of these large tribal groups.
I need to find a map of the two connected continents to figure out where national boundaries are located and what butts up against what.
-
Interesting that the first chroniclers of events in the early ADs can't even agree on names, spellings and geographical localities of various events. No one in the area could read or write except for a very, very few Greeks and Romans. Then you have to take into account the lies and exaggerations from self aggrandizement and propaganda. What a mess to sort through. Regarding maps, I'd like one that lightly shows the outline of current countries overlayed by the various movements of the various tribes, kind of like a flip board of transparencies, so you can see the ebb and flow over time. Something you could stop and take a closer look at or flip back and forth.
I have about 15 pages to read today on this section of our reading before starting on next week's section.
-
Can't resist commenting on the online Runciman. The presenter(s) of the online version have included their own preface and highlights which essentially comment on what Runciman got right and what he got wrong according to today's ressearch. He does not think highly, apparently, of the Russians renaming early Bulgars as Proto-Bulgars among a few other renamings. The Preface makes clear that rather recently many Bulgarians all of a sudden found themselves renamed Turkic-Bulgars which was a or the basis for a bunch of deportations (forced migrations?) to Turkey and beyond. The preface itself is worth reading.
-
Id Kah Mosque and Id Kah Square: https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x3892e9f6ff0c38c7%3A0x7aa87e9a7dea310d!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOBEMOI_7WuWnuI3hmKs1pchsygg7HpCAZtfK3M%3Dw107-h108-n-k-no!5sKashgar%20-%20Google%20Search&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipPkG_YInKhD2WYYmV-jORiIyHvhdA6PrKx-JXjD
Sorry about the lengthy address. This page has lots of pictures. The side bar has smaller images of what is shown in the slideshow.
-
More investigating, and I find that the Chinese tore down most or all of the Old City and built a new Old City with a University.
http://www.ejinsight.com/20140704-kashgar-university/ I just spied an article by China News about how they are destorying the old and building new to provide a "safer" future. I didn't go back to read it. I am sure their slant is quite different from our current reading.
Smithsonian article, dated March 2010: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/demolishing-kashgars-history-7324895/
The New World Order (no matter where or who is behind it) generally extracts a very high price.
-
Goodness frybabe the photos went on and on and on - the cylinder shaped structure painted in yellow and off red I thought fabulous - If I were there I could look at that for hours - and then the line of flowerpots with some sort of tall bush growing in each caught my attention - liked the symmetry and the unexpected flowerpots beneath the trees - and finally, towards the end I wish I knew the name of the string instrument he is playing and what it sounds like - probably using the Asian musical scale that has so many more notes than our major and minor scale with only 8 notes each in various keys.
I too need to finish up this weeks read to be ready for tomorrow's read that again is not the huge number of pages as the first week, which did get us into the rhythm of his writing and the trip.
Thinking of you Pat - forgot the day you were going for surgery but if I am remembering it is right about now - or maybe the end of this past week - praying all goes well...
-
wow China not only demolished homes but resettled into Kashgar 220,000 Uyghurs - they like to put their imprint like branding on everything don't they.
-
Looking at this destruction of the old city from a distance - it sounds like the dislike for the Han Chinese is blamed for the change -
I see this same exact thing happening here in Austin were those of us who have lived in Austin all our lives or for at least the last 40 or 50 years feel displaced and all our local time honored restaurants are closing because, the new folks are not frequenting them and the property tax has increased beyond the ability to make a profit plus, for some the ageing owners are not up to more change. We blame those from California that have moved in with their culture rather than doing in Rome and the Romans.
Reading this about Kashgar it seems the new housing built elsewhere would create urban sprawl bringing on the headaches for roads, travel and transportation with all that pollution and wasted gas or knock down the older area, just as here the older Black and Mexican American community, where yes, the culture was supportive but, Real Estate values allowed investors to sweep in, knock down and rebuild for less cost than other areas of town. Of course the city council loves it - the property tax dollars collected are 10 times what had been before gentrification.
-
did you mean for both links to link to the same article frybabe or did your computer hold onto the first link when you expected it to upload another.
And do not get me started on this new One World Order with what is going on at the Border paid for by those few who want to subvert national identity - Have you read UN Agenda 21 or UN Agenda 2030 that incorporates Agenda 21 - or read the Immigration Pact signed by 154 nations that we are not a part of but might as well be as the weakness in our immigration laws are being exploited - oh oh oh do not get me started... I've had to walk away from a party that really left me after 3 generations of support. OK - this is not the political discussion -
-
It's tomorrow, Barb. I've been reading the posts, but have had no time or energy to make sense of the reading.
-
I'll be thinking of you tomorrow, Pat. I hope it is nothing too serious and you recover quickly.
"We blame those from California..." Now you sound like my friend in Colorado.
-
Looks like someone has to be the fall guy for change ;) in the west it is Californians ::) :D
-
Be thinking of you Pat - praying all goes well and it is an easy transition with new knees. Looks like Jane, who does all the uploading for us will be on the road tomorrow on their way, finally, back to Iowa - her husband has completed his chemo but still has 5 weeks of daily radiation that a doctor has been arranged to administer in Iowa. Big step forward and hope your surgery will be a big step forward for you Pat.
-
Frybabe, I'm getting a new right knee. Since I already have a metal hip, I know what to expect. The recovery is the same only more intense. So it's a serious procedure but not dire.
-
Uyghurs, China’s Most Persecuted Ethnicity
(https://nextshark-vxdsockgvw3ki.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/FEATURED-52.png)
"A Turkic ethnicity in China, the Uyghurs have a disputed history. Many Uyghur historians assert that the Uyghurs are the original inhabitants of Xinjiang, with claims of history spanning at least 4,000 years. Among them is Muslim leader Muhemmed Imin Bughra, who wrote in “A History of East Turkestan” that the group, with respect to Turkic aspects, has been around for 9,000 years."
"The World Uyghur Congress, an international organization of exiled Uyghur groups, subscribes to a 4,000-year history in East Turkestan. It claims that contact between Uyghurs — who originally practiced Shamanism — and Muslims took place as early as the 9th century, ahead of the Manchu Invasion in 1759. The Uyghurs, as well as “other people” in East Turkestan, revolted 42 times against Manchu rule, which ended in 1862. While they were expelled two years later, the Manchu returned in 1876, renaming East Turkestan to Xinjiang after eight years of war on Nov. 18, 1884.
On the other hand, Chinese authorities trace the Uyghurs’ origin to the Tiele, a confederation of nine Turkic peoples in northern China that emerged after the disintegration of Xiongnu, a confederation of nomadic peoples that inhabited the eastern Asian Steppe from the 3rd century B.C. to the 1st century A.D. In this version of history, the Uyghurs only became the main socio-political force in Xinjiang when they migrated from Mongolia following the collapse of the Uyghur Khaganate. They replaced the Han Chinese, which allegedly had occupied the region since the Han Dynasty (206 B.C. – 220 A.D.)."
-
Yuzhu Peak is the highest in the eastern part of Mount Kunlun
(http://en.mountkunlungeopark.com/upLoad/news/month1711/201711111155303067.jpg)
Located on the west side of Mount Kunlun Pass，Yuxu Peak is the sister peak of Yuzhu Peak at an altitude of 5,980m. Yuxu Peak is named after the legend of the Yuxuan fairy maidens in the Kunlun mythology. It is one of the Taoist centers and the main Taoist temple of the Taoist Kunlun School. Yuxu Peak is surrounded by mountains and towering clouds, and covered with snow all the year round. Modern glacier activities are intense. The glaciers cover an area of 80km2. There are more than 30 glaciers which are distributed on the north and south slopes.
Yuxu Peak
(http://en.mountkunlungeopark.com/upLoad/news/month1804/201804082118517206.jpg)
Moraine refers to the debris that the glaciers carry and accumulate. They are mainly produced as the ice sheets are eroded during the movement of glaciers. Kunlun Mountain Pass has three major ice ages in the Pleistocene. Wangkun Ice Age, one of the oldest, occurred 500,000-700,000 years ago. This point reveals the porphyritic and monzonitic granite in the formed at the foot of the late Caledonian movement (about 400 million years ago) was dendriticly infiltrated in the metamorphic sandstone, slate of the upper Silurian (about 440 million years ago) The invasion of the veins reveals an unusual pattern, as if a galloping deer were to break through the walls, lifelike and breathtaking.
Kunlun Holy Deer
(http://en.mountkunlungeopark.com/upLoad/news/month1804/201804081724545230.jpg)
-
This point reveals the porphyritic and monzonitic granite in the Yanshan period (205-135 million years ago), with strong weathering effect. There is a rock on the top of the mountain standing like an old man standing sideways, dressed in a Taoist gown with a wide sleeve and a belt, with his hair in a bun and standing gently. Lao Tzu seemed to be discussing the law governing all things. It also resembles Master Keung asking the immortals about how to administer the country. Mount Kunlun is holy in Taoism. It is a Taoist image and thus named “Practicing Taoism at Kunlun”. This Pictographic Rock results from the joint action of granite joints and spherical weathering.
(http://en.mountkunlungeopark.com/upLoad/news/month1711/201711111237051015.jpg)
-
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/silkroad/silk-road.jpg)
Shadow of the Silk Road
Come on along with us - Monday, March 11
We're joining Colin Thubron on his 7,000 mile journey along the greatest land route on earth. Out of the heart of China into the mountains of Central Asia, across northern Afghanistan and the plains of Iran and into Kurdish Turkey.
| (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Mat4mCEuL._SR133,200_.jpg) | Reading Schedule
March 11 - 17..... Pages 1 - 95
March 19 - 24..... Pages 96 - 150
March 25 - 31..... Page 154 - 218
April 1 - 8............ Page 219 - 344
April 9 - 10.......... Wrap-up
|
Topics to Note and Discuss1. SARS virus and impact on the author’s journey
2. Inventions spread East and West
3. Behaviors and Values of the Chinese people
4. Characters met along the way
5. Caves and Objects at Dunhuang
6. Religions and Places of Worship found along the way
7. The various means of Transportation
8. Add any additional 'Legends and Myths' of Ruins, Monuments, Tribes and Historical Individuals
|
Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey (augere@ix.netcom.com)
-
Woman hooking cocoons of silk
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f6/a2/13/f6a2133779de061acb3d7ede8702f20c.jpg)
-
Green jade with an imperial poem. Qing dynasty, Emperor Qianlong.
(https://p5.storage.canalblog.com/55/72/119589/63651737.jpg)
-
Started this next section last night but wanted to say the second chapter of the last week's read was not only short but really no travel revelations as much as observation and opinion of how the people were handling their life with the influx of Han Chinese - I guess the resentment is for all of us the un-natural, and paid migrat6in that is planned to change a society.
-
I have passed Torugart Pass and am spending the night at Tash Rabat. When I did an images search on Google, I came up with a lot of good photos people posted to Pinterest including one that showed a truck hauling scrape metal like the ones mentioned in the book. I take it Silk Road guided tours are rather popular from the number of photos and blogs I am running across.
This is a nice blog with lots of pictures of the Tash Rabat caravanserai. https://www.timetravelturtle.com/tash-rabat-caravanserai-kyrgyzstan/ I am guessing this guy does freelance writing and what not, not to mention being sponsored for some of these trips. This is his life, and he is very good at it. https://www.timetravelturtle.com/about/
And here is Wikipedia's post about Manas, who is greatly revered by the Kyrgyz people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Manas I found an English translation on Amazon, actually, it appears to be an English translation of a Russian translation, but it still gets better marks than Walter May's translation which one customer claimed did not keep the sing-song quality of the narrative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDklwoLf34#t=1m29s
-
I now have a shiny new knee. SUrgery went well, and if all goes well, can go home this afternoon.
-
You two are having such a fantastic discussion. It makes me jealous there is never enough time to keep up. You really have to invest in this book to keep track of the geography and cast of characters.
-
Thanks so much Pat for letting us know all went well - wow this afternoon - it must be so much nicer to recoup at home - love your observations - just adds a sparkle -
Frybabe I just got lost in the link that included the list by century of all the prose poems - it was my childhood - never realized but different than even my children's education we either read or had read to us or memorized many prose poems and I loved them - had to renew and even found on line, where for very little cost, two of the poems are available in old books from 1905 and 1911 - that too- I love those old cloth bound books.
Included in the link to Epic Poetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry in the 'see also' is 'Epic Fiction' and under it is 'List of Epic Poems" and there is so much of my childhood. I can see our 7th grade nun reading aloud to us Longfellow's Evangeline - We read and memorized so many Longfellow long poems - 6th Grade it was The Courtship of Miles Standish - and I can see him now as my father, when he was feeling happy and he would burst into quoting the entire Paul Revere's Ride and another The Wreck of the Hesperus that he almost acted out with gusto - it was not till years later I realized how sad was the story but then my father would have learned these poems in his early years of primary school, 3rd or 4th grade.
My mom knew large sections of the Song of Hiawatha - and just the opposite, days when she was weary or on wash days she would quote the poem.
And of course in 8th grade we all had to memorize Aurora Leigh and we read for a book report Song of Myself.
On hot summer days under the cool shade of the front porch where no adult could squeeze reading from our 6th and 7th grade summer reading list, Joan of Arc and the wonderful Song of Roland and Tennyson's Idylls of the King.
When I was very young, before I understood what the poem was all about and we were till speaking German my Grandmother in her soft way would seem to disappear into herself and quote in German from Deutschland: Ein Wintermärchen/Germany: A Winter's Tale - When I saw the author I was shocked - had no idea this was a poem by Heinrich Heine.
Und als uch die deutsche sprache vernahm
Da ward mir seltsam zumute
And then in High School, I think Senior year, we read Tristram of Lyonesse - oh the romance of it... Although not an epic poem Freshman year we read Ivanhoe followed the next year was Hamlet, Junior year was, Macbeth and sprinkled in usually in the Spring of the year, there was John Brown's Body, Crane's The Bridge and Sandburg's The People, Yes and of course being a Catholic High School we read The Ballad of the White Horse by G.K. Chesterton along with the wonderful The Lady of Shalott
So that frybabe with that last link, showing those performing the Manas, the video also brought back memories of that sing song way the Sister Rose Imelda would stop us everytime to hear the lines and concentrate on the whole line, not just rhyming line endings, and to think of it as if we were giving a speech with emphasis rather than singsonging. I remember being so disappointed and not wanting to express my disappointment with my children's education not reading or being exposed to this bounty of literature - they did not read these epics in school any longer much less memorize lines - I often think it was the beginning of the dumbing down - to my way of thinking the modern literature they did read was stuck in the latest social issue rather than seeing these issues in a historical context by reading some of these epic poems.
I took so long writing this as again, I had to quote and look up to remind myself of sections - how much fun this has been. And to think folks are still doing this as public entertainment. Hmm I wonder - is it because they do not watch TV and are still living among their extended families - but then he did share earlier how one couple was probably going to move away to a city - I wonder, is it the break up of family that makes a change in continuing traditions.
-
The last line of Chapter 7 is particularly interesting and thought provoking: "A nation, as the philosopher Renan said, is bound not by the real past, but the stories it tells itself; by what it remembers, and what it forgets."
I am in Samarkand now. A name that stirs the imagination and begs us to hop a magic carpet and ride back to the time of grand palaces and moguls, of romance and intrigue. Samarkand, the ultimate marketplace, where East met West. Haunts of the great Tamerlane who the author calls a megalomaniac. Someone who I know of, but not anything about. I think I will do a little Googling about Samarkand tomorrow.
This is one of those books that reminds us that there are whole other worlds out there that we never heard about or heard just so inconsequentially that it never stirred us to look deeper.
Did you notice that Thubron gets a little distressed about old ruins getting paved over with the new, and old customs being replaced or marginalized or made into tourist attractions?
Hi Pat, thanks for the update. I hope you were able to get home this afternoon, and hope to see you posting tomorrow.
-
Silk Road tours appear to be popular. Take your pick of Your Tube or Vimeo videos. There are quite a few. These are two I picked out.
Samarkand video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpE1JJIavVkl
The people, history and culture of Uzbekistan - Traveling the Silk Road | DW Documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoH2bU9xADg German documentary, very interesting.
I get the impression, or is it just the people the Thubron chose to chronicle, that quite a few people miss the Communists.
I ran across a bunch of trailers for a move called The Tashkent Files. It is about the suspicious death of Indian Prime Minister Shastri in Tashkent in 1966. The movie is apparently causing an uproar in India and Pakistan.
-
A caravanserai was a roadside inn with a central courtyard, where travelers in the desert regions of Asia or North Africa could rest and recover from the day's journey.
(https://www.goreme.com/images/caravanserai-2.jpg)
-
Kyrgyz
(https://www.mircorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/kyrgyzstan-26.jpg)
| At Festival
(https://www.advantour.com/img/kyrgyzstan/events/kyrgyzstan-festivals2.jpg)
|
-
Chatyr lake
(https://www.trvlland.com/sites/default/files/places/c_skied_2.jpg)
Bactrain Camel
(https://financialtribune.com/sites/default/files/styles/telegram/public/field/image/ordi/13_Camel%201.jpg?itok=sP7t0jVW)
Manas - hero who united Kyrgyzstan
(http://www.theasian.asia/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/manas-statue.jpg)
-
Maracanda early nineteenth century
(https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/Samarkand.jpg)
-
Link to Sogdian brief History and Culture https://historum.com/threads/the-sogdians-history-culture-and-language.77640/
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51V7KC9P85L.jpg)
-
For heaven's sake Edgar Allen Poe wrote a poem Tamerlane, 27 versus - published in 1827 in his first published book of poetry.
Here is an excerpt
TAMERLANE.
I HAVE sent for thee, holy friar;
But 'twas not with the drunken hope,
Which is but agony of desire
To shun the fate, with which to cope
Is more than crime may dare to dream,
That I have call'd thee at this hour:
Such, father, is not my theme—
Nor am I mad, to deem that power
Of earth may shrive me of the sin
Unearthly pride hath revelled in—
I would not call thee fool, old man.
But hope is not a gift of thine;
If I can hope (O God! I can)
It falls from an eternal shrine.
The gay wall of this gaudy tower
Grows dim around me—death is near.
I had not thought, until this hour
When passing from the earth, that ear
Of any, were it not the shade
Of one whom in life I made
All mystery but a simple name,
Might know the secret of a spirit
Bow'd down in sorrow, and in shame.—
Shame, said'st thou? Ay, I did inherit
That hated portion, with the fame,
The worldly glory, which has shown
A demon-light around my throne,
Scorching my sear'd heart with a pain
Not Hell shall make me fear again.
I have not always been as now—
The fever'd diadem on my brow
I claim'd and won usurpingly—
Ay—the same heritage hath given
Rome to the Cæsar—this to me;
The heirdom of a kingly mind—
And a proud spirit, which hath striven
Triumphantly with human kind.
In mountain air I first drew life;
The mists of the Taglay have shed (2)
Nightly their dews on my young head;
And my brain drank their venom then,
When after day of perilous strife
With chamois, I would seize his den
And slumber, in my pride of power,
The infant monarch of the hour—
|
-
As exotic as all this sounds the reality that Colin is experiencing is far less than exotic - even though they complained continuously about the Han Chinese, the section about Kashgar and Turkestan and the Uighuristan appears to be more pleasant than this area where the Soviets were entwined in the area - not that it was just the Soviet influence, it seems the people are lost and don't sound like they know who they are nor, does their history sound as full as the Uighur's - maybe because they're religious history was denounced as one group after another controlled the area. When it comes down to it praying to the sky really is not all that big a problem.
Still have 18 pages to read in Samarkand
-
frybabe in the Samarkand video the market and cafe had more but even those seemed less interesting to me than the photos we saw from the section of the Silk Road last week - the Uighurs I thought were a more lively and colorful people.
-
Golly 14th century and in one area 5 MILLION are dead - what % of the world population I wonder did 5 Million represent. that is more than half the 8 million Jews killed in concentration camps- if they can go from as the book quote, "fresh from murdering a brother or erasing a city, before they settle again to ponder tulips and open a book." I'm thinking we call this barbaric and monstrous yet they appear to see it as a matter of course - almost like slaughtering cattle to feed the hungry - what are these leaders feeding - can the 'need' beyond desire for power and control be that reptilian in our brain.
Behzad is the most famous of Persian miniature painters,and the director of a workshop producing manuscript illuminations in a style he conceived.
Mir Sayyid was a Persian illustrator and painter of miniatures.
The Timurids were in-laws of the line of Genghis Khan, founder of the Mongol Empire. Members of the Timurid dynasty were strongly influenced by the Persian culture and established two significant empires in history, the Timurid Empire (1370–1507) based in Persia and Central Asia and the Mughal Empire (1526–1857) based in the Indian subcontinent.
Bibi Khanum Mosque
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Bibi-Khanym_Mosque_%288145400614%29.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/eRWLrNAAJkE/maxresdefault.jpg)
-
Interesting - found this... furthering what Colin says is this bit - his legacy continued into the 20th century.
"Timur's body was exhumed from his tomb in 1941 by the Soviet anthropologist Mikhail M. Gerasimov. He found that Timur's facial characteristics conformed to that of Mongoloid features, which he believed, in some part, supported Timur's notion that he was descended from Genghis Khan. He also confirmed Timur's lameness. Gerasimov was able to reconstruct the likeness of Timur from his skull.
Famously, a curse has been attached to opening Timur's tomb. In the year of Timur's death, a sign was carved in his tomb warning that whoever would dare disturb the tomb would bring demons of war onto his land. Gerasimov's expedition opened the tomb on June 19, 1941. Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany, began three days later. Timur's skeleton and that of Ulugh Beg, his grandson, were re-interred with full Islamic burial rites in 1942."
These quotes from the book really captured something that is universal.
"The waves of the liturgy sweep over us. As the congregation bows towards the Host, my mind is drawn back compulsively to Russia's past, to suffering endured like the nature of things, like descending rain. Sometimes it seems as if in Russian eyes there were no individual guilt: only sin, vast and communal...It is the beauty of the liturgy, he says, that educates the heart...Since the Holocaust, my world had made a duty of remembrance...A nation was not built on truth."
-
frybabe went back and reviewed again your youtube link to Samarkand and on the side this link showed - The Karakorum Highway - 10 minutes of the most incredible scenery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXNcbd-yq-c
All I could think of seeing all those incredible mountains if they would just get settled their political and religions wars this could be a haven for mountain climbers and mountain hiking - those colorfully painted buses and even the boats is an art form that I almost want to see a few on our streets. The start of the journey showing a highway with some large lorries with Chinese written on them are not nearly as uplifting as later on the road seeing these colorful alternatives.
Colin seems to do a lot of comparing to earlier trips so that I am not sure if his concerns and negative comments are based on the changes that are happening all over the world or that the area was negatively affected by either the Chinese or now the Russians.
This youtube film showing yurts using solar energy was a surprise - I wonder what Colin would think and say - the film's traveler does admit it got cold at night in that yurt - finally someone that tells it as it probably is rather than keeping all the romance of the yurt - I remember reading how someone slept in a yurt with a single lite candle keeping him warm - hmmm now I am wondering. Wasn't it years ago Julia Roberts who filmed her trip into this area? OR maybe it was Mongolia - wow how easy it is to think one area of Asia is 1000s of miles away but similar. I really need to get a handle on the distances comparing Kilometers to miles. I think my vehicle has a pedometer that allows me to switch to kilometers - I should do it and drive up the Georgetown or some other nearby city that I know and see the comparison.
I'm enjoying this but now after reading and seeing the many youtubes of sections of the Silk Road I'm not as enchanted and knowing I will never make the trip is just fine - fascinating but still prefer the US, Canada, even Mexico and Europe. Japan still holds a fascination for me
-
Next week Colin crosses the Friendship Bridge past the port of Termez.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/Officer_of_the_Afghan_Border_Police_at_the_Afghanistan%E2%80%93Uzbekistan_Friendship_Bridge.jpg)
-
Liked the video, Barb. Yes, I agree about the busses; they have always fascinated me. The walls of the yurt interior looked quite sturdy with the lattice hatching which must help stabilize the tent against heavy winds. It looked comfy, if a bit bare. Seeing those distinctive hats reminded me that I forgot to mention them earlier. Strange design. I can see a green version with a shamrock pinned to it worn by a Leprechaun.
You are probably right about the author comparing his earlier trips. I would be surprised if he hadn't.
We don't generally hear about all the mining going on in that whole area. I suspect that that is why the Chinese and Russians are/were interested in controlling the region. I think the results of these mining operations have done and are continuing to do to the environment and people have not been lost on the author although he is treading lightly over the subject.
https://bankwatch.org/blog/earths-riches-peoples-troubles-mining-in-central-asia
https://www.ebrd.com/news/2018/rallying-support-for-central-asia-to-address-uranium-mining-legacy.html
This one is a summary of a thesis on pre-Islamic tin mining. scroll down to the bottom for more pictures.
https://www.bergbaumuseum.de/en/research/projects/early-mining-landscapes/pre-islamic-tin-mining-central-asia
-
How bleak this trek from Bahlk to Maimana. Dangerous territory.
When I looked up Mazar-e Sharif, I ran right up against the massacres of the Hazara people. Here is a paper by the Human Rights Watch about the 1998 massacre. https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports98/afghan/Afrepor0.htm
But that is not the first time nor was it the last the the Hazara have been targeted.
https://minorityrights.org/minorities/hazaras/
I learned that Mazar-e Sharif is one the top 100 list for most polluted cities for particulate matter concentrations.
Some photos Afghanistan from 1973 which includes Mazar-e Sharif and its beautiful Blue Mosque. Herat is there too which is where I am headed for now in the book.
https://ozoutback.com.au/Afghanistan/index.html
-
Well I'm in Iran and feeling like the story can continue - did not like any of what I read about his traveling through Afghanistan - the conditions of Hazara reminded me of the novel all the rage a few years ago Kite Flyer or whatever it was called - when we learned there were 6 major tribes in Afghanistan and the Hazara were thought of as the lowest. Young Hazara boys were expected to be involved in pederasty - the book describes a women being stoned in the stadium. I'm remembering the underlying German influence but do not remember how the Germans became such an integral part of the social structure - I did not like the novel and reading his description of the area that had more recent history then ancient history this part of his travel I just read to get through - I'm in Iran now and already it feels a bit lighter - they may be our arch enemy which I really do not understand why but so far the people and surroundings they sound less like they are living in the bowls of hell.
-
I actually like Rory Stewart's The Places in Between better. It covered his travels in Afghanistan, India, Iran, Nepal, and Pakistan, with the concentration on his trek through Afghanistan just after the Taliban were ousted. What I remember most about the book was the hospitality of the people along the way to a stranger and the dog he rescued along the way. I see that there is a short quote on the back cover from Colin Thubron. Stewart's background includes a Fellowship at the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, service in Iran with the British Army, and he is now a member of Parliament.
I also read Khaled Hosseini's The Kite Runner and the sequel, A Thousand Splendid Suns. I haven't read the third, And the Mountains Echoed although I meant to. I also read Bookseller of Kabul by Åsne Seierstad. That one came with a little controversy about how she portrayed some of the people she stayed with.
Sigh! My typing assistant took off not to long ago without being to disruptive. The opening left is now filled again, by Lucy, who likes to lay right on the keyboard and purr big-time. So now we are getting lots of love vibes with the nose nudges and purrs.
-
Rory Stewart's The Places in Between sounds like a good read - I remember back, oh it has to be 15 years ago now, reading several books about the various tribes that live in the area of Afghanistan but they were not novels. It became apparent reading about these ancient tribes and their homeland they lines that form Afghanistan was a construct just as Colin noticed while in Kazakhstan. And yes, that was it The Kite Runner, all the rage, I think we read it hear on Senior Learn - I wonder what ever happened to Karzai - he is no longer President but did he retire, is he still involved in government in some quiet capacity, is he still living in Afghanistan, or has he moved to Paris as so many of the ex leaders of the Muslim nations.
Gotta run - eye doctor appointment.
-
Barb, Karzai is still around but what he is doing other than spouting propaganda that the US and ISIS are in collusion to keep the region destabilized I haven't heard. This, of course, is after he got voted out of office and was accused of himself playing footsie with the Taliban.
As of 2017 he was living in Kabul. Last year he was traveling a lot in the general Central Asia area and giving speeches, including not surprisingly, Pakistan but also India, Sri Lanka, and Turkey. Karzai and Taliban reps were in Moscow this February for talks. According to this article the US had reps there too, but the current Afghani government didn't. This article is from Radio Free Europe. https://www.rferl.org/a/taliban-afghan-delegation-say-talks-to-continue/29756223.html Both Washington Post and Der Spiegel had relatively recent articles about him, but you have to subscribe to read them.
I have gotten to Tehran in my reading. The paragraphs about Omar Khayyam were very interesting. I took a look at some pictures of his current tomb; IMO it is rather ugly. While looking at pix of the mosque complex in Meshed (Mashad) which is very impressive, I ran across this bit of modern ecological architectural design. https://architecturepin.com/pin/3785/ The page loads slowly.
-
Worse thing we ever did was set this country up to think the solution for all nations is Democracy - thanks much for the link - all I see is Afghanistan is not run by a national rule of law as folks expected - for thousands of years and they continue to follow the tribal rule of law and all Karzai is doing is representing his tribe - the current president has his tribe or tribes and if there is ever a show down that will be how it is fought - in the meantime they are each perusing those who they think will strengthen their tribal leadership position. Karzai wooing a US advisory is a wise move - our nation trying to befriend Putin would have been a wise move to nullify near future wars in the Middle East - ah so... Folks here, along with the media have played international checkers for so long they do not recognize international chess when it is before their eyes.
Well you are ahead of me in your reading - spent hours at the eye Doctor's today and when I came home all I wanted was a nap that ended up being three and a half hours long - here it is after 10: at night and I only finished my supper - well onward...
-
I pushed through today and finished the book. Colin seemed to rush though Iran and Iraq (probably with good reason) rather quickly. I actually disliked his narrative of going through Iraq more than Iran. I think in the end he seemed to realize he was getting too old for the kind of traveling he had done. It looks like he has only written forwards to other travel books and one novel since this one, and he President of the Royal Society of Literature between 2009 and 2017.
While several of the sites were tempting to look up, I decided not to. Most of the sites he visited seemed to be either not really there or piles of rubble. The exception would be Antioch, but I could spend all day there soaking up its' extensive history.
I did settle on one final website because he mentioned Vespasian and his son, Titus. Vespasian and Titus both campaigned in the area. And here is the web page I found describing Seleucia Pieria (spelled Pierea in the book) that describes its' history. Click on monuments for a link to the channel Titus had built as well as several other places of interest.
https://www.livius.org/articles/place/seleucia-in-pieria/
-
Ah so ... haven't finished yet but I too was pushing through - As much as folks in the provinces of Eastern China complained about the Chinese I enjoyed that section of the book far more then this Afghanistan and Iran section - I too felt his including all the crumbling ruins was his duty to report where as I was anxious to read about more relevance as these monuments to culture and ancient leaders were to those who live in the Eastern Chinese Provinces
I'll probably spend tonight and some of tomorrow finishing up the last bit and posting a few photos that I find - like you Antioch is another world and one I too could dive into.
frybabe since it is just you and I - I'm changing the heading and it will show this discussion over as of Monday with a wrap-up till Wednesday in case either of us have any thing more to say or if Pat comes in for a tail end comment.
I need to add I did not know about the Shia child that disappeared and they are waiting for the child to return on the Last Day, that one of the festivals was to honor the Awaited One, the Mahdi.
-
Interesting his spelling of Meshed as compared to what I am seeing attached to photos - Mashhad
Some of what he is seeing
(https://www.letsgoiran.com/images/bagallery/gallery-32/thumbnail/category-3/mashhad--13-.jpg)
(https://en.shafaqna.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/is-59-1030x687.jpg)
-
Statue of Iran's poet laureate, Firdausi who wrote the world's longest Epic poem
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Statue_of_Ferdowsi_in_Tus%2C_Iran_3.jpg)
-
Interesting the English speaking Hussein shared a version of 9/11 I've heard and had explained to me by architects and engineers - reading this and from an Iranian now I am wondering if their version has been picked up and shared here in the US, to compete with what we think happened - leaves the entire dreadful happening in question so that the anniversary of that day most of us saw in full on TV is a complicated feeling of misgivings so different then December 7th Pearl Harbor. HUssein's explanation and his opinion of the Christian narrative sure shows the gulf between the two cultures. Being American is not a good thing in Iran and yet, there must be some redemption - we know John Kerry's younger daughter is married to an Iranian physician who is well connected to the Iranian leadership.
Colin's travel speaks of a few more poets and then the crumbling Silk Road without even the wonderful museums protecting these ancient crumbs of what was.
No mirrors and beautiful turquoise tile here at the oldest mosque in Iran, built can you believe in 760.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Damghan7.jpg/240px-Damghan7.jpg)
Became curious about the world's oldest buildings still in use - quite a few and several back 1000 and more years BC
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-of-the-oldest-buildings-that-are-still-in-use
-
Just hit me - Iran with its Shia heritage is feeling a victim to their status as Shia and victim to the west, both to England and to the US - weeping is now a practiced art - sheesh - and yet, I am seeing some of this blaming now among many in the US instead of action - rolling up our sleeves and getting it done - it is this feeling of being controlled that we seem to be under and that Colin picked up how the young feel in Iran.
-
Alamut --- "The name Alamut came from an ancient Persian King, who, while on a hunting expedition in a remote valley, followed an enormous eagle and saw it land on a rock at the top of a hard to reach mountain. The King took this as a favorable omen, and, realizing the strategic value of the location, built a castle there, naming it ‘Alamut’, meaning ‘the Eagle’s Nest’.
(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/2600/1*UcAkRz4zAcJNAFVHXRHjQQ.jpeg)
-
Meshed is actually one place I don't remember from previous readings. Another spectacular mosque/shrine. Last night I watched a short YouTube presentation about the early Armenians. As with others I have watched about the early tribes/clans in the area and on the other side of the Black Sea in Bulgaria/Romania and such, it was posted by History Time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Zu08tKzs4 It doesn't cover the Silk Road area that Colin passed through.
-
Frybabe I had a field day last night with your link - one link led to another that were all related to the days before Islam and the early people of what now we call Eurasia. The history of the Sythians and the Tartars on and on - of course each Youtube video was close to or over an hour long but definitely worth it - so much bad mouthing of Byzantium and one video even said they folded because they did not change and they walled off anything new - so now I am more curious than ever - all I knew is this eastern group of Christians broke from Rome and then Rome became the Christian center where as in the early 400 years the center was in Constantinople.
I am so glad to have read this book - it put so many places together that were scattered in my mind from earlier reading - never really knew where Antioch was except as a place on the map but no cultural or historical reference to other locations east of Antioch. I guess that is it, Thubron gave me a historical and cultural understanding of all these ethnic groups and places and how the Silk Road really connected all these cultures. That connection still holds today and to know their ancient leaders is enlightening. In my mind's eye it is difficult to connect with people who take their cultural identity from happenings that are a minimum of 1000 years ago and some going back before Christ - just amazing and here we look to those who brought us the Constitution which is not even 300 years old.
Religions to me are fascinating - they seem to be an expression and engine of the culture as well as, an explanation for the unknown and theater - I'm thinking their heroic leaders seem larger than life - thinking on it when a movie or computer game can make monsters who are either good or bad that far exceed the ability of any single human so that, no way can we give that aura and skill set to our leaders today - they are almost diminished as heroes - cast aside as mare insignificant mortals.
I'm seeing a cause for disenchantment with the idea or possibilities of heroic leadership by the Millennials and those younger. It is as if these new cyber heroes allowed them to see the real human heroes as wanting and therefore, they feel like the did when they learned there was no Santa - maybe that is what is behind the bigger move toward no longer acknowledging a Santa.
-
The YouTube presentations have helped me put a time and place of origin for some of these groups that had me previously confused. There were some groups that i didn't know were primarily Jewish or Christian, not to mention a few surprises about where they originated. I have a SmartTV so I get to watch these on the big screen.
Do you realize that Colin must have been in his early sixties (he will be 80 in June) when he traveled the Silk Road. No wonder he was more than occasionally a bit "angry" and seemingly impatient.
-
Wow did not realize that - he sure was in good shape then to do the cliff climbing in that last section - and earlier as well in the Assassin Valley mountain fortification - I have that book that I read years and years ago about Stark and I think the name of the book had Assassin in it - need to find it - had no historical context - so this is where those who were involved with fighting the English and Saladin in Northern Africa came from - had no idea.
I like the time table he included at the end - but frankly if I had not read the book the time table would have not been as valuable - he brought it alive where as up until reading this I had isolated the various historical events.
Also really valuable was his observation that the Shia are all in a place of grief all the time - no wonder all the photos we see of the Iranian leadership look so grave - not a smile among them.
-
Sometime today Jane will be closing us down frybabe and Pat - instead of putting a period on learning a bit about this part of the world all reading this book did was open up more curiosity - - -
Phrases that gave me a pause were - Shia weeping from a sense of wrong – all they do is build mosques rather than hospitals (well-being) and businesses (benefits to others) – forgetting the old songs and stories – bitterness from history is a devotion to suicide, anger grows in isolation.
Made me question my mosques - what am I building that is singular rather than aiding my well-being or being a benefit to others - what old songs and stories am I not passing on - and do I hang onto bitterness -
It is easy when aging limits the unfulfilled dreams and the realization that in isolation anger grows - interesting because I have experienced and see other who have experienced the loss of so much as we age. The loss of friends, partners, for some of us even our children, our city is changed, we loose our pets, traditional celebrations change, doctors retire, churches close, schools we knew are torn down - we see our life changing all around so that it feels as if all is about loss - It is easy to stay alone feeling bitter that we have to start in all over and yet, if we stay isolated we risk spending our time being angry.
Interesting bits to ponder... great reading this with you frybabe... and hope your knee improves Pat.
-
Barb and Frybabe, you two have had an amazing conversation together, and proved once again that a discussion doesn't need a lot of people to be high quality. It's a big regret I couldn't join you, but it's not something that can be done when you can't keep your mind focussed.
Kudos to both of you.
-
I like books, like this one, that I can dig into and find people, places and things (not to mention different ways of thinking and philosophies) to round out or enhance what the author writes about.
This book, for me, brought me more up-to-date on the how the different groups, communities and cities are modernizing beyond the old notions of nomadic tribal areas. Some yurts have modern amenities, they watch TV via satellite, they carry around tablets and cell phones, the children go to university. There are still improverished groups and areas, but now the picture of the whole area has changed for me. Oh, and the mining, it is more extensive than I thought. That shouldn't be a surprise, but I always had the notion that all the tribal factions and fighting, internal and external, kept modernization and mining to a minimum. The fractiousness of the area still holds their economies back, but not as much as I thought.
I wonder how extensive is the notion that the religious authorities are to blame for much of the poverty and backward thinking in these countries.
Thanks for sticking with it even though the discussion ended up being mostly just you and me , Barb.
Pat, I trusts you are improving daily. I assume you have to do some sort of physical therapy taking up your time for a little while yet. Hope to see you back up to speed soon.