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Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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Please post below if you plan to join us in February.
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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Does it seem like "old stuff?" Cowboy and Indian stuff? John Wayne stuff?
If you think so, you are missing a large part of history. The Plains Indians were still fighting the white man during our country's Civil War.
I had no idea it went on this long, did you? And what was the tribe that fought on so fiercely out west, the most powerful Indian tribe in American history? And what happened to the white captives after they had been ransomed by their families?
That is the story in this book, written by a master storyteller that you will find irresistible.
JOIN US IN FEBRUARY!
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I was just noticing this book is mentioned in the New York Times list of most notable books of 2010, Ella! There must be something new or striking about it to earn this spot!
The names Cynthia Parker and her son Quanah Parker sound SO familiar to me...dreadful memory these days. Are these names every Texas child grows up with? As I recall, Parker is Cynthia's maiden name - and her son has her name. I'm curious about his paternity, so count me in.
Our library owns 6 copies - I'm #8 on the queue.
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Count me in for this one Ella.
I have always been a sucker for the "cowboys and Injuns" stories.
I must warn you beforehand, I always take the underdogs and that, IMO, has always been the Indians.
I will check it out to see if I can download it on my new Nook (which Santa is bringing) or if I can rent it from the library.
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ELLA, and HAROLD, please count me in! I am another one who has almost always rooted for the underdog. Even as a child I found it offensive listening to people referring to the American Indian, as savages! How arra. . gant of decendants of European settlers. I look forward to this discussion.
Sheila
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This does sound interesting. I couldn't miss this opportunity to learn more of the great saga of conflict between Cowboys and Indians in the American West. Count me in.
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Welcome Alf, Sheila and Jonathan!
This is a great book about the Comanche Nation particularly its later years when it was led by a half bread Chief who carried his mother's family name, Parker. It is the story of the band of Shoshone who left their northwest mountain homeland to wander south and a bit east to the prairie where they became buffalo hunters expert horsemen, and the finest light guerrilla Calvary this word has ever known. Particularly it is the story of Quanah Parker the tragedy beginning with the 1836 massacre of much of the Parker family, the abduction of 9 year old Cynthia Ann Parker who grew up a Comanche, marrying a Comanche Warrior bearing his son Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. It was he who in the end led his people into the reservation and a new life in 20th century America.
I am reading the book on my new Nook Color-Tablet. I think it will be an interesting experience reading this way, and as a tablet the instrument may be a bit better than I expected. It connected easily to the internet via the new wi fi net work that I installed myself, It is best connected to picture rich sites such as NASA, Hubble, and my Pictures From the Past family history page. These show up quite well with pictures enlarged to fill the full 7 inch screen. Also I can read the seniorlearn boards but I don’t think I will post much from it as the screen keyboard is a bit too much for my clumsy, stiff fingers to handle the texting of even moderately long posts..
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Isn't this great, HAROLD!
On opening day to have people interested in the EMPIRE OF THE SUMMER MOON!
Welcome, JOANP! Thanks for mentioning that the New York Times has taken notice of the book. I must look up other references and bring them here.
JONATHAN! So happy you are here, one doesn't have to take sides at all. Its's history, our history, Canadian history. History is alive and constantly changing! And always fascinating from a different viewpoint!
SHEILA! What is your definition of a savage? If it is the common one you will find that definition applies to both Indians and the white man. Welcome to the book discusion.
And ALF, we must have your viewpoint, I do hope Santa brings your dream! Otherwise, your library will have a copy! Welcome, Welcome!
THANK YOU ALL FOR POSTING!
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Every one please note the following post copied from the non-fiction board. (Nonfiction Board Reply #1488 by maryz
Harold, et al - on a whim, I checked BookTV.org to see if they had interviewed S. C. Gwynne (Empire of the Summer Moon). And indeed, he did speak at the 2010 Texas Book Festival this fall. It's about 45 minutes. Click here to get to the site where you can listen to the interview. Click the following URL for the interview
http://www.booktv.org/Program/12037/2010+Texas+Book+Festival+SC+Gwynne+Empire+of+the+Summer+Moon.aspx
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And I'll be checking in, too.
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Oh, good, MARYZ! Thanks so much for that clickable.
Sorry we all missed that C-Span program where the author talks about the book. But we will have our opinions come February.
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Ella, I just listened to it this afternoon online.
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ELLA, my definition of a savage is: someone who is uncivilized. What is your definition? In the 1940's, and I went to at least one movie a week, being a savage was used a lot. I never liked it.
I never realized that it was also used about caucasions. In what context?
Sheila
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SHEILA, I think there can be several definitions of the word "savage" as in savage attacks on an woman by an abusive husband, savage attacks by caucasians against Indians, and vice versa, as described in this book. I think any abuser, whether it be a soldier against an enemy, stronger force against the weak, etc., can be both "civilized" and savage.
I suppose what we are describing as a word can be both a noun or a verb, right?
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A remake of an old movie, TRUE GRIT - by Matt Damon, a tale of a Texan Ranger. I never saw the original version so I can not speak of any relation to the validity of its truth about the Texas Rangers.
http://www.truegritmovie.com/
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I have another interesting publication Entitled "Comanche Moon." It is a 120 page comic book account of the Cynthia Ann Parker and Quanah Parker story. It on 8.5 X 11 inch pulp paper, but quite adequately bound. I also have a similar Texas history comic book entitled "Los Tejanos” that tells the story of Juan Seguin one of the native Hispanic Texans who participated in the Texas revolution and the period of the republic that followed. Both of these books were published in the 60's or 70's.
In the 1930's on the occasion of the 1936 Centennial there was a much broader Texas History in comic book format outlining the history of Texas from Cabeze de Vaca in the 1520 through the then current 1936 period. I remember reading this book in Junior High School study hall. I still remember the dialog describing some of the frames. I have a copy of this original publication that I bought at a used book store in the 70's. All of these books were quite serious Junior High "School level histories in Comic Book format very effect in their attraction of early teen age readers. Actually I think that is a much to simple judgment; though they are unlikely to interest graduate level research in history, I think they would attract many general adult readers today. In fact I suspect a reader of the "Comanche Moon publication would be quite prepared for some participation in the coming discussion.
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I hope to participate, time permitting.
This is a book my Mom may want to read when I am done with it.
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I hope you can join us, Frybabe!
The book, almost five months on the NYT bestseller list, is going to be made into a movie, possibly starring Robert Duvall as Quanah and if you put the title of the book into Google you can spend hours reading reviews, excerpts, etc.
C-Span's interview with the author is here:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/296792-1
And there are so many more; however, if you are, like me and many, many more on this site, you want to read the book and if you are from Texas, particularly, you will want to own the book and pass it along to all your younger relatives.
Of course, that statement is incorrect. Actually, if you are interested in how America became a nation, all the mistakes that were made with that process, you will want to read the book. It is American history.
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Quahnah Parker has Oklahoma connections, also. I'd like to read along.
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I ordered the book last night. Hopefully, I can get started on reading it ahead of time to make sure I have a sporting chance of keeping up.
I mentioned my Mom in my last post. She is more interested in Indian culture and history than I, but her focus has been on Eastern tribes and the Seminole. Once in a while, I check to see if I can find any non-fiction books about the local tribes (Delaware of Leni Lanape) but haven't had much luck. Folk stories, etc. would be good.
My cousin in Florida taught the Lacota (spelling?)language. He lives in Florida. I asked him why he didn't teach Seminole. He told me no one was interested in learning it; they prefered to learn Lacota. I don't know if he is still teaching it.
Long ago, we had a neighbor who, after getting his PhD, taught in the Blackfoot schools for many years. I lost track of him and his family years ago. His brother went on to be a veterinarian until he had to switch to teaching because of arthritis. His mom and sister moved out to Texas.
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FRYBABE, what interesting stories, I never knew anyone who had any connection (teaching Indians or an Indian relative) with any of the native People. Don't read very far ahead, the discussion doesn't start until February.
CALLIE, wonderful. We are so pleased you are joining us; do you live in Oklahoma?
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Ella, yes, I live in the Oklahoma City area and volunteer at The Oklahoma History Center, which has an entire Gallery devoted to the 39 Indian tribes associated with the state.
I'll try to do some research before February to see what exhibits include information about the Comanche and/or Quanah Parker.
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I'll be reading Empire of the Summer Moon. Sounds good. Have had it on my TBR list.
Want to read True Grit by Charles Portis. I understand the Coen Brothers took their new film straight from this book. I hear the film is good, but would like to read the book first.
Some other Westerns on my TBR list:
Lonesome Dove by McMurtry
The Master Executioner by Loren D. Estleman (Western noir)
The Oxbow Incident by Walter Van Tilbert Clark
Treasures of the Sierra Madre by B. Traven
The Virginian by Owen Wister
Warlock by Oakley Hall
Marge
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Our favorite family western is Monte Walsh by Jack Schaeffer. Schaeffer also wrote Shane, which is more well-known. We've read both books and seen movies made of them. In our opinion, Monte Walsh is by far the better book, but the movies made from it were mediocre (with Tom Selleck's being maybe the best). Shane was not nearly as good a book, but a much better movie.
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Thanks, MaryZ, for your recommendation of Monte Walsh by Jack Scheffer. I've added it to my list. I already have Shane on my list.
Marj
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Merry Christmas everyone. I am in North Texas (Dallas) for Xmas with Family. What a difference with rain and temperature in the 40's. It will be better tomorrow when it will be bright and sunny but cold and windy. I'll head back to San Antonio Monday at the latest. Again Merry Christmas to all.
It now looks like our "Empire of the Summer Moon" discussion will make, but it would be best if we could add several more participants. Any one out there who might be inclined to join us are welcome.
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hello, New here, I think this book sounds great, I'm just so excited to have found a book club.
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Welcome crescentwitch.
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I'm happy you found us, cresentwitch. This is such a great group, I'm sure you will enjoy it.
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WELCOME CRESCENTWITCH!
We are so happy you have found us. We start our discussion of the book on February 1st. This is a nonfiction book, but we often, as you will learn when you click on our other discussions, have fiction to discuss. This month, January, is LITTLE BEE by Chris Cleave.
Both books are truly good reads.
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It is a great book. I got mine yesterday, the last copy in the store, and I can't put it down. This is the best thing I've read since the ILIAD.
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I was in Barnes & Noble most of the morning enjoying my "free slurpie" and reading free for one hour. I decided that i liked the ebook so I bought it online. While I was there I looked for Empire of the summer Moon just to see what maps, pictures, etc- what ever I will miss while I read it on my Nook. The book had completely sold out and the computer showed that they were awaiting shipment for more books. Now that is the beauty of my Nook.
Crescentwitch- I love your "handle" here- as I've been called a witch many times myself, it's good to have company. I know that you will be delighted with this wonderful group of readers that we have on Seniorlearn. Come on over for our January selection to Little Bee which Traude and I will be leading.
By the time I get ready here for Ella and Harold's selection, I'll be plumb-tuckered out chasing thru Nigeria with Little Bee and our readers.
Thank you Jonathan for the Kudos for the "Empire...." book, I haven't started it as of yet.
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Alf, in the BookTV interview I saw with Gwynne, the only complaint that was registered about his book was the lack of maps - and I totally agree. There was only one map in the front of the book - and that not a very good one. Gwynne agreed and said he hoped that could be corrected in subsequent editions. So don't worry about not having them on the Nook - they aren't there.
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Cool! Thanks MaryZ, now I don't feel so bad about missing the book then. I love maps, personally and learn a lot while reading with a map.
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I'm with you, Alf. We grew up in Texas, so are familiar with a lot of the geography, but I'd still have liked lots more maps. There is a section of photographs, and I don't know how they'll show up for you.
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I guess Google Maps (or Earth) is going to get a workout.
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Happy New Year everybody! It was a great new year here in San Antonio. I watched it on TV with a friend. After a chili supper we watched the PBS NY program symphony program, then the Time Square ball drop, ending with our new year here in San Antonio where there was a crow or 250,000 people downtown on S. Alamo street at the old Hemisphere site with spectacular fireworks that really lit the sky for some 30 minutes. It was an impressive evening.
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Thank you everyone for the wonderful welcome. My name is Kay, but the crescentwitch handle fits. I purchased both books yesterday, started them both. I will participate in the summer moon and little bee. I think these books will make me think in ways I have shut off for a long time. I am a counselor in a prison, lots of injustice and pain, so I have become hardened. I am looking forward to feeling again, even if it is uncomfortable.
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Bless your heart Kay, you'll be fine. If you can admit to feeling "hardened" and shut off you will flourish in a book discussion. We all bring a part of our own selves into a discussion and that is what makes it work so well.
Heck, we'll be old friends by the time we finish these next two books together.
Jane or whom-ever. Thank you for fixing this spell check.
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KAY, we are happy to have you with us. And you are a counselor in prison!! How interesting, but, as you say, pain and injustice must be a part of life there. Welcome again!
HELLO ALF.
MAPS, YES, INDEED! We need them. How can this author write a book and just include this one map, showing Indian territory in the mid 1800's!
Don't you long to know just where in Texas it all is today? I know when deciding on the book we, Harold and I, said we definitely will need maps of rivers!! Where most of the Indians camped.
BUT DON'T READ AHEAD TOO FAR! WE HAVE A WHOLE MONTH YET AND YOU WILL FORGET THE BOOK BY THEN!!WAIT, WAIT! Tuck it away until then.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22
Related Links:; Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
maryz - Ella, Gwynne does mention that "location X" is i.e., 10 miles SW of present-day Lubbock, or someplace. You'd still need a regular map to go with it.
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Welcome, Kay! You won't find a more welcoming and caring group than the folks here on SeniorLearn. You've come to the right place!
Ella, this poor Jersey girl will have to read the book more than once. Just off the train from the EAST, I'm finding Texas to be a foreign country...the names of places AND people, all foreign to me. Those who mention the one map in the front of the book as insufficient, I agree, I've turned to it several times, only to be disappointed. Even the rivers mentioned in the book do not show on this map. I HAVE heard the name Quanah Parker - but not his tribe, the Quahadis. (I thought he was a Comanche...maybe they are one and the same?)
OK, I'll stop reading now, as you say! But you can see I am so far behind in my knowledge of the history of Texas, that I feel the need to learn something of the geography before we start. - I just know I'm going to learn a lot about Texas - it's about time!
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I will be joining you. My library has the book and I am first on the list. However if I cannot renew it I will be without a copy for some of the discussion. If I don't reserve I could miss out! What a quandry. Hopefully I can renew or maybe get my daughter to take it out then I get it for another month. If there are no requests after mine she would be able to do this. (She is a librarian)
I will probably get quite emotional during this book as I have been so upset about lies told to us in our history books when I was a child and then finding out what really happened when I was an adult. I have a real empathy with all indigenous peoples. This despite me being of colonial settler stock.
Carolyn
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JOANP, my knowledge of Texas is similarly poor. We'll both learn. The early days of Texas and statehood. I know very little.
Oh, good, Carolyn. We are always happy to have you in a discussion. And, yes, the truth! Your situation in your country was probaby similar in some ways to our own???? Have you had a lot of movies depicting the natives as savages?
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Click the following for "The Handbook of Texas." http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online . This on line encyclopedia has been compiled by theTexas Historical Association and is generally a good source for information on all things 'Texas.
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In the days when I was a child yes we did have movies like that. However we also had many American movies because our movie industry was very primitive in those days being such a tiny tiny country. The Westerns we watched here gave me nightmares. I wonder today why they showed these movies to small kids at Saturday matinees.
I am looking forward to reading this book and participating in the discussion. I have a great empathy for indigenous peoples despite being of settler stock. I am fifth generation on my mothers side. My great great grandparents were early settlers in Auckland. The big push was in the mid 1800s.
Carolyn
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I don't know either, Carolyn, but all kids like cowboys and Indians, don't they? And the Indians were always the bad guys weren't they? They looked mean and they were savages and they always used bows and arrows. No, I think they had guns in some movies. I can't really remember.
Can't remember when I've seen a "western" movie, we always called them cowboy show. If they come on TV on a station they are gone in a click.
John Wayne sat tall in the saddle, guess in real life he was a big guy.
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The truth is I have hardly ever watched western movies or TV at any time in my adult life. This includes the years of the late 50's and 60's when some 2 out of 3 TV shows were westerns. I guess I was watching Lucy or Dick Van Dike or the likes; or maybe I just didn't watch that much TV. In any case this present book is certainly a Western complete with a cast off thousands mostly Comanche Apache etc. and of course Texas Rangers and U.S. Calvary.
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...and quite a bit of it takes place in what is now Oklahoma.
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CALLIE, are the reservations still there and have the Indians built houses on them? Done any farming? I know, I'm very ignorant of the current situation in regard to our native Indians.
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Ella, there's really no way to generalize about the 39 Indian tribes that call Oklahoma home.
Basically, they live very much like everyone else and are quite integrated into the general culture - while, at the same time, retaining much of their tribal heritage and having individual tribal governments.
Some of the tribes have always owned mineral rights on their tribal lands with income from oil and gas prodution. In recent years, some tribes have built casinos on their lands and have become quite wealthy from them.
I'll furnish some links to web sites and provide some information as we read the book next month.
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I am more familiar with the Indian tribal lifestyle in New Mexico than elsewhere, and the description give by Callie for the Oklahoma tribes certainly applies in New Mexico also. A few years back I spent Xmas and New Years at my Brothers house near Red River that is near Taos. There in their own two or three bedroom adobe houses Indian families live at the Indian Pueblo (the reservation). This Taos Pueblo holds three separate public ceremonies during the Xmas-New Year period; these are the Procession of the Virgin on Xmas Eve Night, The deer dance in mid-week and the corn dance on New Years day.
The Procession of the virgin in an interesting combination of Indian and European-Christian cultures in which the life sized image of the virgin Mary is paraded through the pueblo compound after dark on Xmas eve. It was a cold night with the temperature in the low 20's. The Compound was illuminated by some 50 large bonfires and orchestrated by rifle fire from several high caliper guns fired by Indian police at the procession's rear; visitors could feel the compression from a hundred feet away. The procession was led by a catholic priest and the Reservation political leaders with several hundred Indians, all men, following. It took the better part of an hour for the virgin to complete her tour of the 50 acre compound. The tour complete with the bonfires in decline, the virgin was returned to her place in the church, the indian men retired to their Kievas for their own special Indian ceremonies, the priest to his own Xmas celebration , and the several thousand tourists broke for their automobiles. My family hasted to a Taos restaurants where reservations had previously been made for a late evening dinner.
The deer dance came in mid week. It was a typical large group dance performed by men only. The Corn Dance came on New years day. It was performed by both men and women. Today life at the Taos Reservation appeared to me to encompass an interesting combination of Indian and Anglo-American culture.
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CALLIE, I'll be looking forward to it!
HAROLD, from your description of the Indians celebrating the holidays, I would comment that they have found another way to raise money or, at least, bring their culture to the public's attention. Was that a true celebration of the Indians, who were not Christians, celebrating the holidays?
While in New Mexico some years ago we took a walking trip with a local guide and he talked about the Indians (who are very apparent in Santa Fe and are allowed to present their wares on all the sidewalks). Gosh, was he cynical! He said that
by law the Indians are required to live 3 months on the reservation to establish their permanent residency; but many of them have homes in the city, are businessmen and well-to-do. However, if they want it, they are entitled to free health care and other benefits.
The guide talked of the four cultures in the state, the white man, the Hispanic, the native Indian, and the true Spanish. He said they must all be represented in their state government and, consequently, each is forever attempting to usurp the other.
HAROLD, is any of the above true?
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There was a beautiful picture of buffalo in my local paper a few days ago and I cut it out and sent it to my sister in AZ, darn! And now I can't find it, but there are plenty on the web. We have a local restaurant that serves only bison meat (I think it is Ted Turner's restaurant, or, at least it is called Ted's). His autobiography is a good book incidentally.
Give me land, lots of land (and don't fence me in) - buffalo need it! We'll talk more about them later, but here's an article.
http://ourohio.org/index.php?page=oh-give-me-a-home-2
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NOTE - ALERT - ALL INTERESTED IN THE BOOK!
Tomorrow on BOOKTV the author will be discussing the book. TUNE IN TOMORROW AT 9:15 p.m. EST
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What an enthusiastic author and editor!
One of the questions from the audience at the Texas Book Festival was why did Gwynne not furnish maps in the book. As noted in one of the posts, we need maps. Hopefully, once we start the discussion we can find maps on Google. Our author said that was one of the complaints he heard the most.
Possibly, probably, Harold can provide us with information about the places referred to in the book; he has knowledge of Texas and the plains.
I'm a Yankee and I know very little about Texas, the plains (Amarillo and Lubbeck?) and I hope to learn a great deal from this book and our discussion.
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I just watched C-Spans interview with this author. It will be shown again at 2:15 a.m.. on Monday. I was a bit disappointed with the interview. I am not sure what I expected, but whatever it was, it didn't happen for me. For one thing I feel the man doing the interview did too much talking. I was much more interested in what the author had to say.
However, I really enjoyed the Q and A section. The program did increase my interest for taking part in out discussion.
Sheila
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My book arrived today. I have skimmed through the first couple of chapters and I know I am going to enjoy the discussion we will have.
Carolyn
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Carolyn we are happy to have you join us. Perhaps you can offer some comment relative to your own early colonial history. I suspect you too had your problems but it was probably less violent than ours.
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From Ella above: <HAROLD, from your description of the Indians celebrating the holidays, I would comment that they have found another way to raise money or, at least, bring their culture to the public's attention. Was that a true celebration of the Indians, who were not Christians, celebrating the holidays?>
My point was that to me the Indian culture today seems an interesting MIXTURE off the old Indian and new (for them) European –Christian. The Procession Of The Virgin was on its face typical European Catholic Christian. But the manner in which it was performed was certainly Indian, quite different from a church ceremony in Spain. Also the conclusion with the Indian Men participants retiring to their Indian Kivas stands out as a manifestation of their continued regard for their cultural past.
Regarding the dances they seem more Indian but again the manner in which they are performed again inserts a modern Anglo vector. Ella is right admission to all of these events was by admission ticket costing as I remember $10.00 plus another $10.00 if the entrant had a camera.
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Couldn't finish Little Bee, but this one sounds like a winner. I just hope the graphic descriptions aren't too graphic and Empire of the Summer Moon is more historical.
Nancy
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Welcome Nancy!
Definitely historical, nonfiction, true! But Indians fight Indians, Indians fight the Texas Rangers, the Army and the white settlers. I hope you don't mind that historical truth. It's our history. We have fought our bloody battles, the Revolutionary War, the Civil War and that latter war was barely over when the ragtag armies of Sherman, et al. decided to get rid of the Indians once and forever.
There is much more to the book than that brief summary. It's a good book, I think you will enjoy the discussion, it's our history.
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We had the Maori wars! Very bloody too but not as long lasting as your Indian conflicts.
Carolyn
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When you stop by this discussion, look at the two pictures in the heading! Tthe plains where the buffalo roamed and the Indians lived. Beautiful pictures, aren't they? (from Wikipedia) The Comanches depended upon the plains, particularly, because they were nomadic in nature and went where the buffalo were. Amazing how one could live on buffalo alone.
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Carolyn, I started to look up the Maori tribes and came to this first. What an expressive face she has and how many of us can say we are natives, our ancestors have always lived here. She claims to be able to trace her ancestry back 200 generations. Wow.
http://www.globalonenessproject.org/videos/therighttobeme
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They traced gene connections with Maori and the indigenous Taiwanese people some years ago so the Polynesian race may have orignated in China! There are many facial features common to both peoples. My SILs grandmother was Maori and Brooke has the genes while Grace has the Celtic genes from both sides of my late husband and my families. Brooke has almond shaped eyes and olive skin. She has really thick curly hair which she wears long or she would end up with an Afro. Maori have intermarried here in huge numbers. I don't think there are any full blooded Maori left. I think early Maori as in Goldies paintings are very majestic looking people. They do remind me of the American Indians as depicted in early art works. There are so many aspects of all indigenous cultures which are identical.
One of the unique aspects of NZ culture is that Maori language after a huge battle in the seventies has been fostered and it will not die now.Many Maori words such as Whanau (family) and Kia Ora ( greetings) Kai ( food) are in common usage now by both Maori and Pakeha ( white people).
While we do a lot of naval gazing here about race relations I think in comparison to many other countries we do very well.
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I should add that as an adult I began to think about colonisation a lot. I cannot help feeling enormous empathy for indigenous peoples. I also feel abject shame at the greed and arrogance of my forbears. How would we feel if we were overun by a foreign power and all our lands taken from us,by force in many cases? How resentful would we feel even up to today if we seemed to be a forgotten and marginalised people, misunderstood and despised even.
I have in the last few years been to Maori funerals and at some of them I have been one of only a handful of white people. I feel privileged to have been invited and to experience a way of grieving which is so different to that of the European. I remember at one Tangi ( funeral) I was profusely thanked for attending over the three days of ceremonies. I thought to myself, why should I be thanked? I was attending the tangi of someone I had known for over three decades.
One of my ambitions is to learn the Maori language before the end of my days. There are classes in Te Reo all over the country I just have to find a daytime class in my city. I don't have good night vision.
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How soon will we have the "reading schedule"? I now have my own copy - but the time between now and the beginning of the discussion will be very busy and I would like to start reading/making notes/etc. ASAP.
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Personally I am going to begin reading the first couple of chapters next week.
Carolyn
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While reading the first few chapters, I was reminded of Little Bee, a book we are now discussing for January. The young Parker girl here was captured by the Indians and forced into a barbaric, uncivilized culture. Whereas Little Bee was displaced by the British from Nigeria, a backward, brutal country and forced into a detention center in England, from which she then went on to meld into our "civilized" society. Which would be more difficult I wonder? Both girls lost their individual lives: their families and loved ones.
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Callie - the discussion schedule has just been added to the heading as Ella requested. I must confess to getting a head start on the reading. Was really interested to read that what is now Oklahoma was set up as Indian country in the early 1800's by the US government - to guarantee they would have land of their own to live "undisturbed." It will be interesting to learn what happened to this.
Living in the east all my life, I have seen very little indication that Indians ever lived here - EXCEPT, and I guess this is a big exception, the names of rivers, parks, streets, etc. As far as I know, there are no Indian families living in New Jersey - or Virginia today. Your experience, your environment is probably very different. Having "westerners" in this discussion is really going to be interesting...
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22
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It's good to hear that something of the vanished Indians has been preserved in the names given to rivers, parks, and streets on the eastern seaboard. What a calamity it must have been for them, to be pushed aside by the land-hungry Europeans. On a par, perhaps, with being thrown out of paradise. But I've never been to Oklahoma, so I may be mistaken. A guarantee to live 'undisturbed' must have sounded good to the Indians. Does the memory of a golden age, I wonder, live on among the descendants of those disposessed Native Americans.
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JoanP, Thank you! I've read the book - but want to re-read concentrating on the chapters under discussion at the time.
I can - and will - provide links to pertinent Oklahoma information.
However, I'd like to suggest that, for the purposes of this discussion, we don't "throw in" too many facts about the Indian tribes in Oklahoma other than the Comanches and Apaches which are addressed in "Empire of the Summer Moon" - along with a few others mentioned in connection with them.
Otherwise, we'll be getting into Indian "removals" from eastern states - which don't apply to the Plains Indians who were already here.
Discussion Leaders - do you agree?
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Yes, Callie, too many Indian tribes are confusing, and I see little relevance (actually none at all) to Eastern tribes being forced (as most of us know) onto the reservations of the West.
There is much to discuss in the book - in the first 7 seven chapters - our assigned chapters for the first week. We can thank Gwynne for making this history come alive for us; from his extensive reserach as noted by Notes and Bibliography in the back of the book. Personally, I think it is an astonishing book, one that has added greatly to my meager knowledge sof western Indians.
We will start our discussion on February lst - another week or so! Am looking forward to all your comments and the discussion. We will be putting some talking points up by then.
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I just got my book and will start reading it tonight.
Nancy
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I will pick up my book on Wednesday! Yeah!
Sally
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Just started reading. I like it already.
Found some historical maps to reference. Click on the map you want to look at and use the selections below the map to navigate. It is amazing the number of towns listed in Texas by 1870, covering the eastern half at least.
http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html
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Yesterday, I began reading our book. I was born and raised in California. My ex mother in law was 1/4 Indiian. However, I cannot remember which tribe. During my teens, my paternal grandparents lived in Prescott, Arizona. I spent some time there, and attended an Indian Rodeo.
The summer of 1941, I traveled with my maternal grandparents to Elk City, Oklahoma. I remember Indians selling silver jewelry on the streets, and reservations. Then, after my husband died, in 1989, I attended a week long workshop in Taos, New Mexico. It included a tour of the Pubelo. I was amazed to learn that there were still people living in the Pubelo, with no running water, or electricity.
So, I have had some exposure to Indians of the West. This book is really teaching me new information. I am looking forward to our discussion. Now, back to our book.
Sheila
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YEAH! We are gathering for our book discussion, and I think we now have two people who have Indian blood, is that correct? Natives! Wonderful, Sheila.
Look at those maps Frybabe found. Wait until Harold sees them. He has lived in Texas all his life and I think will be our authority on the state!
And Sally and Nancy, don't read more than just the first 7 chapters. That way we will all be discussing the same events.
Let's all take the train out west, gaze at the plains (are they still there or have they all been plowed under), those lovely plains such as in the picture in the heading.
"Oh, give me a home where the buffalo roam, where the deer and the antelope play!" I'm not sure that an antelope and a buffalo are the same thing???? But that's what "they" wrote!!!
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Ella, I just knew that this was going to be a rich discussion as soon as the westerners signed on! And now we have posters with first hand knowledge of Indians. (There's an indication where the name "Indians" came from in these early chapters.) It's difficult NOT to keep reading after Chapter VII - but will try not to.
Here's something else I've been meaning to look up - since you mention the antelope, Ella. The difference between a buffalo and a bison?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Discussion Schedule:
Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22
Related Links:; Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
Here's a link to one map in an Oklahoma Atlas.
http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm
I would encourage you to browse through the Table of Contents for other maps - if you are interested.
Ella - yes, indeed, the Plains are still there - miles and miles and miles of unplowed land. Lots of huge ranches.
The canyons of the LLano Estacado are mentioned in these first chapters. I lived in Amarillo for several years - and still have relatives and friends there. I find it fascinating to be driving I-40 from OKC to Amarillo and realizing that, while one can see for miles and miles in all directions, if one looks down - one realizes this land is deeply cut by all kinds of arroyos and canyons.
The author mentions the Caprock. I never realize when we have gotten "up" onto the Caprock - but the elevation does change.
Oklahoma City - 1230 feet above sea level
Shamrock TX (first town "over the border" going to Amarillo on I-40) - 2369 feet
Amarillo - 3605 feet
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I started reading our book last night. It was hard to put it down, but I stopped at Chapter Five. I wanted to leave some of the story for this week.
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WOW and more WOW, JoanP.
One could spend hours in that Okalahoma Atlas just by clicking - good grief. I skimmed the Comanches history and well, what can I say!
The Internet is absolutely a fascinating source of knowledge of just about everything one needs to know and last night the President even mentioned that someday we might be able to have one-to-one chats with our doctor over the Internet. Think so?
It gives me a good feeling to know the Plains are still there, the grasses still blowing in the wind; but the buffalo? Any of those ranches have buffalo grazing? Just cattle I would imagine? How do they round them up? Or do they have them penned up?
Your speaking of driving I-40 makes me dream of going west again. We came back partway on I-40 from a auto trip out west some years before my husband died. We drove out I-10 because we wanted to see some Southern Civil War sites, very sad ones, even Appomattox Court House was sad for me. That war, so many dead, seems in retrospect so very sad.
We should talk a little about Texas as a state of the Union before our book. I'll yell for Harold and hope he hears me!
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Great map site, Callie. I just love clicking on the counties and getting links to all kinds of things. Thanks.
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I'm going to hush about Oklahoma - at least until the last chapters. So much of the book takes place in Texas and we do need to concentrate on that.
Well - maybe one more link - mostly because of the name: ;D
http://www.comanchebuffalo.com/ourstock.html
I'm glad some of you enjoyed the Oklahoma atlas.
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Callie, that was YOU (so sorry, how can anyone tell when the page is turned, I mistakenly thought JoanP had put that Oklahoma Atlas there for us. THANK YOU, it is so interesting! And the last one - the buffalo - the Original Red Meat! Yes, yes! Ugly, big beasts aren't they; still they belong! And that one at the very top - the buffalo, I swear, are moving!! Is it me, are they moving around???
But, JoanP, put the National Geographic in the heading for us to use whenever we need to or have the time!
What a fascinating month coming up, with comments that you are all providing and the history, I LOVE IT!
Thanks so very much!
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The bison at our zoo to me are magnificent creatures. I like their look.
Carolyn
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You are not seeing things, Ella. The Buffalo are moving.
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;D, Ella! Was "turning the page" the reason my post showed up with the heading? It surprised me, too!!
I hope no one caught me modifying and modifying and...
I had found another web site about buffalo but thought you might like to read this one because "Comanche" was in the name - and, of course, it's in Oklahoma.
The other web site said "Buffalo or bison? We use both".
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Regarding Buffalo: Though in 1900 there were only several thousand animals yet alive in all their old western range, that is not the case today. Based on a three year old Department of Agriculture paper there were in 2007 some 600,000 head on ranches large and small throughout the U.S. The Buffalo meat industry industry was thriving. The largest single heard was some 2,000 head at Custer State park in South Dakota.: the 2nd largest was some 900 head at Yellowstone National Park. This report did not note the size of the Ted Turner heard but today they must number a thousand or more. The bulk of the heard were in small ranches ranging from a very few to the fifties. I sometimes make Buffalo meat chili.
So long as the economics remain favorable the Buffalo future is assured.
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Have you ever tasted buffalo meat? Is it like beef?
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THANKS, FRYBABE! The buffalo were moving; my aging eyes are still working okay or would it be the brain? I don't want to know.
CALLIE, yes, the need for the heading to be on each page was the reason your post showed up on Page 3. And buffalo and bison are the same thing?
HI HAROLD! Out of curiosity I looked up Ted Turner's holdings and it will surprise you:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22010764/ns/business-real_estate/
He not only owns more acreage than any other private landowner in the USA, but his herd of buffalo is the largest. An amazing fellow; if you not read his autobiography you will find it fascinating.
I haven't seen ground buffalo meat in our stores or I might try it for chili myself. On our cold Ohio days and nights it sounds very good!
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I love Buffalo Burger.
When George and I lived in Bethlehem, we went regularly to the farmer's market in Quakertown. A vendor there sold buffalo meat, but he never had it out in the cases for some reason. I never got around to ordering a steak or two. Hoss's Restaurant has Buffalo (Bison?) Burger on the menu here in PA. Also, I have seen ground Buffalo meat on the meat shelf at BJ's Wholesale, but only the ground meat. I want to try a steak sometime.
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Have read the book and found it very interesting. It reads like fictin, almost ss if the old western movies were taken from it,a little bit of everything. It seems that progress plows down eveything in its wake, good or bad. Also read the Trail of Tears which was so sad. Did anyone read Zane Greys book The Vanishing American ? Looking forward to discussion.
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WELCOME JEAN! Yes, the old west comes alive in this book; we are so happy you are joining us. "Progress plows down everything." The old west disappears to emerge in movies and books. Fortunately this book is historical so it is very close to the truth, do you agree?
I haven't thought of Zane Grey in years! At one time I read everything he wrote; perhaps it is time to renew my acquaintance? We have a Zane Grey museum in Ohio, near Zanesville, which was named after him and where he was born if I'm not mistaken. I went to that, also, years ago.
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/zgrey.htm
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I see the Ted Turner link places the size of his buffalo herd as 45,000 head. That's a lot of buffalo.
And Welcome to the discussion Jane. As way of introduction let me say that Jane is my neighbor here in San Antonio. She is a super bright senior lady with a long career as a military nurse and housewife spanning the continent from New York and Maine , to the west cost and now appropriately Texas.
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JoanP- I have eaten Buffalo burgers and Beef- falo roasts. They breed the buffalo with the cattle and the meat is less fatty and supposdley healthier for you.
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The part of the animal we like best up here in Canada, is his skin. We couldn't make it through our cold winters without our buffalo coats.
I hope to be in San Antonia by the first of February. I'll be travelling by canoe and mustang. Any tips on scenic routes? I know it's a long way, but I've got a fast horse, and I can paddle like hell.
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:D JONATHAN!
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It may be helpful to have a little background into the history of the Republic of Texas, or the State of Texas, both of which are described in these chapters.
Texas history is complicated! But a beginning: (perhaps Harold or Jean would like to add to this)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas
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I grew up in Houston, and in junior high or high school (don't remember which), we had a required semester of Texas History. I'm sure I've forgotten most of the details. And then, of course, found out more when we moved to Tennessee, and found that many of the Texas settlers came from Tennessee. ::)
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On C-Span 2 (Book TV), on Saturday at 5:15 p.m. ET, the interview with S.C.Gwyne will be rebroadcast (about 45 minutes).
Also on Saturday, 8:30-10 p.m., Book TV will talk about a book called Driven West: Andrew Jackson and the Trail of Tears to the Civil War. That might tie in with our discussion.
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We had a lady on the old SN whose ancestor was on trail of tears. She had her family bio on her personal website. Photos too. I am terrible but I have totally forgotten her screen name.
Carolyn
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Off topic: Carolyn, did you feel the Taupo earthquake?
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hi there
Since I have almost finished 'Empire of the Summer Moon', I thought I'd better touch base. What a book, am so glad I was able to get it from the lending library here. They have only a 2 week lending period, so perhaps that was why I was able to access their only copy. Maybe I will be able to renew it and keep up with some of the discussion. My husband & I are currently in Rockport, Texas, just north of Corpus Christi. We leave about the 15 of February, heading for Florida.
I am going to research the geographic names mentioned in this book, and am hoping on a subsequent trip we can travel thru areas in Texas mentioned. I have such visions between this book, and a group of books read last winter about the hill country around San Antonio.
Have always had an interest in history; especially in areas before civilization!!!!!!!!!!!!!! influenced ways of life. Imagine a flock of cardinals taking off into the sky, am lucky if I see one or two...that was described in the hill country book which was based on diaries of the author's ancestors, and her researches.
I am a native Torontonian
Toronto-meeting place by the water
Ontario-huron word 'beautiful lake'
Canada-huron word meaning 'settlement' or village
native Torontonian by second generation barely, as my dad was the only one of his family born in Canada the rest came from England--my mom's people were early settlers in Saskatchewan, but early means late 1800s.
better late than never to say 'hi' I guess, was just going to lurk, but this book is just too rich in material next to my interest, so just had to say hi.
Deb
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No I did not feel the earthquake I was deeply asleep at that time. However my son has left a trailer the size of a car here. GRRRRRR! The tow bar on it mysteriously fell off its stand so the trailer was kind of leaning to the ground. The trailer is like one of those UHaul furniture carriers people use when they are moving house in the US.He had it especially made for his business. I need it out of here! Maybe I can tell him I am worried about it getting damaged if we get more quakes!
Carolyn
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HI TO YOU DEB! I hope you can renew your book; it makes it more interesting to discuss it with a group!
Thanks for the meanings of those words.
Texas=friends (from the above Wikipedia)
I've been to Eastern Canada several times, but didn't make it out west. Would love to!
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'Imagine a flock of cardinals...'
No, I can't. Deb is right. Here in Toronto we're lucky to see one or two at a time. I saw one just the other day. Beautiful. Please send more impressions of Texas. I've never been there. Have you seen the Canadian, the river? Perhaps the cardinals you saw were feathered Comanches.
Our book is certainly a grand sweep of Texan history. Big enough to contain empires. Big enough to draw a clash of empires, like the Spanish, the French, the British, the American, and of course the Comanches. It seems like a new world version of the Asiatic Big Game. Perhaps Texas was at one time the Afghanistan of America, with its attractive, strategic position.
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I was hoping to get my hands on a copy of Rachel Parker Plummer's narrative, but it looks like they are way out of print and scarcer than hen's teeth. I might just try the inter-library loan system through HACC, but probably not until later when I have more time. I am not sure if there are charges involved. I suspect I would not get a real book, but scanned page copies, which is okay. Many of the libraries listed on WorldCat.org have microfilm copies only.
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Jonathan: Re: "flock of cardinals". There are four pair spending the winter near my bird feeder. It seems to me that the males are becoming a brighter red; must be mating season.
Here's a link to a Wikipedia article about the Canadian River. I only skimmed through it - but it looks as if the information is correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Canadian_River
I'm not quite sure where the river divides into the North Canadian and the South Canadian. Since I live in the OKC metro area, I do know that the North Canadian flows near downtown OKC and the South Canadian is about 30 miles south of that - on the southern edge of Norman, Oklahoma - home of The Oklahoma University Sooners (sorry - couldn't resist a little plug :D). I know this because we had "river bottom parties" when I was in college there. :)
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Jonathar-to clarify the cardinals in a flock were mentioned in either 'Hill Country, or True Women' both books by Janice Woods Windle.....it is a sight I could only dream of seeing. Sorry for the confusion.
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I just finished watching the BookTV interview with S.C. Gwynne. What a delightful personable man!!!
Ella? Harold? Is there any chance he could be contacted about coming in to visit with us at some point during the Book Discussion?
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My husband knew Zane Grey a he taught in the Gooding College{now closed} in Gooding Idaho and wrote seaveral books when there but I dont know the time span. He certainly had a good knowledge of the Idaho and Utah area. As far as the Empire bookbeing the truth. the jury is out on that. I know that the dates are accurate but who did what is still only speculation as so little was documented and oral history has way of distorting itself and tends to be self serving. I do know that the Indians were treated Very badly and are still subjected to much discriminaton in the Pacific Northwest and that alcoholism is a major problem with them and has done much damage to the younger generation.
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It's all very interesting. Thanks, CallieinOK, for the link to info on the Canadian . What a river. Over 900 miles in length with its source in the Rockies at an elevation of 9,514 feet. Emptying into the Arkansas at 466 feet. It would be interesting to raft, the whitewater parts. I also got an answer to my question:
The name may have been given to the river by early French hunters and traders who came from Canada.
Hats off to those brave, enterprising French hunters and traders who roamed far and wide on the continent. Harold drew our attention to LaSalle a while ago, who made it all the way down to the Gulf of Mexico, only to be murdered by his own people along the way. I found an interesting account of that in Francis Parkman's writings.
Another interesting thing. Oklahoma has its Yukon, just like Canada. A suburb of Oklahoma City. Founded by A. N. Spencer in 1891. He was into railways. Yukon attracted many Czechs from Europe. Now that was about the time of the Yukon gold rush. Could that have made it attractive for the immigrants? Of course that was the time when Europeans were hearing that all streets in America were paved with gold.
I must have some Zane Grey in the house. The Vanishing American. Was that about the cruel fate of the Indians?
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Jonathan, To keep from going too far off-topic in reply to your post, I just sent you an e-mail via the "Send a Message" link here. :)
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CALLIE, we can but try to interest the author. I also saw him on TV, and he is very enthusiastic about his subject, isn't he?
However, as JEAN points out As far as the Empire bookbeing the truth. the jury is out on that. I know that the dates are accurate but who did what is still only speculation as so little was documented and oral history has way of distorting itself and tends to be self serving.
Something we can discuss as we probe into the book. Your ideas as to the truth of allegations made are going to be interesting!
JONATHAN, there are so many rivers to cross in this book - to explore - I hope your canoe is a worthy craft.
When I first started reading this book, I thought we must get a map of that river, and then there were more rivers, and I realized that we cannot be spending all our time on rivers! It made good sense for the Indians to camp near rivers and then, of course, that is where many battles took place.
What a great discussion come Tuesday (and I hear OHio is to have freezing rain and possibly more snow to add to the piles we have). Buffalo robes might come in handy!
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Ella, yes, "Sam" - as the interviewer called him - certainly was enthusiastic!
I recorded the interview and also scribbled some notes, most of which are just a few words and not direct quotes (I can't write that fast!!).
One of the audience questions was: "Were you harsher on the Indians than you should have been?"
Gwynne's reply was that he did his research as a reporter would and, in his opinion, "that's the way the frontier was."
I suppose someone would have to take a look at some of his references and see how much agreement there was about this.
Oklahoma is supposed to have a "blue norther" (pages 39-40 in the book) on Tuesday. His description is accurate!!!
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I think that he was realistic about the behavior of the Indians. Some of their methods of senseless torture seemed to be new to the white men but many had been carried out by the so called civilized people in Europe.Humans seem to have a great penchant for cruely to animals and one another.
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Ella and all. Regarding CallieinOK’s question in Post 286: Ella? Harold? Is there any chance he could be contacted about coming in to visit with us at some point during the Book Discussion ?“
This is usually done by either E-mail contact direct to the author or his publisher. I Googled the name, S C Gwynne but it did not provide any personal home page or direct e-mail address to the author. It did provide the following link to the author’s Publishers Summer Moon home page. Ella perhaps you might send a note from this page telling them we are beginning the discussion with an invitation and directions for joining.
http://authors.simonandschuster.com/S-C-Gwynne/47568884
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Regarding the explorations of La Salle in the 1690. La Salle immigrated to French Canada in the 1680’s and began a successful career of exploration of the Great lakes and their south shores. By the early 1690 he had found a short portage to the Illinois River and explored it to its conflux with the Mississippi. He established a Fort and trading post on the Illinois in what is now the State of Illinois. In the mid winter of 1692 with a few French and Indians he left the trading post on sleds pushed down on the river ice. Reaching the Mississippi they made canoes and continued down the river to the gulf where on a great sand jetty stretched out into the Gulf, he realized the commercial and political importance of the river to France. He returned to Canada to sail to France where he was ennobled by King Louis XIV who approved and partially financed La Salle’s plan to establish a French colony at the Mississippi’s mouth.
This was 1685 when La Salle with 4 French Ship, 200 would be colonists, mostly men sailed for the New World. Though LaSalle previously had done most everything right in his explorations, he now seemed to do everything wrong. Either by chance or by accident he missed the mouth of the Mississippi ending up on the central Texas Coast where he landed his ill-fated colony in a crude fort named Fort St Louis. La Sale was killed by his own men on March 19 1697. The last 20 or so surviving colonists were killed by the local Karankawa Indian in Dec 1688 or Jan 1689. This French Fort St Louis colony is the source for the inclusion of the French Flag as one of the Six Flags of Texas.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 1-7 ~ Chapters 1 - 7
1. Why do you think the Indians captured Cynthia Ann Parker? Of what use would she be in the tribe?
2. Why would the white settlers believe the westward lands belonged to them?
3. Why did both Spain and then Mexico encourage Anglos from the U.S. to move to Texas by giving them large tracks of free land with the promise of no taxes for 10 years
4.. How did the Comanche tribe become the single dominant Indian force in the western states?
5. Twenty thousand Comanches, divided into five bands of approximately 4000 members each, lived in harmony with each other and had little system of government. How was this possible?
6. How were the Apaches, and, subsequently, the Spanish, conquered by the Comanches?
7. The Republic of Texas elected Mirabeau B. Lamar as its second president in 1838, How did his Indian policy differ from those of the first President Sam Houston. Were settlers on the frontier more or less safe as the result of Lamar's policy changes?
8. What were a few of the weaknesses or mistakes made by the Indians in their battles with the whites? Mistakes and successes made by the Rangers and the Army?
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
From Jonathan: Oh, my God! I've just read the description of a 'blue' norther (39-40).
This,it says,was routine weather on the plains.
I see the promise of a great historical drama in this book. The imaginative chapter headings assure me of that. I find myself smacking my reader's lips at the sight of each one. In total, how much adventure, I wonder, can an author get into one book. Take for example the last chapter, Resting Here Until Day Breaks.That's enough to keep me reading all night.
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Was that your post, JONATHAN? If so, you are to read just chapters 1-7 in preparation for our discussion tomorrow!
Harold, that was interesting and I think LaSalle had something to do with naming the Chateau Frontenac in Quebec which is just absolutely out of this world - charming. We stayed there a few nights years ago!
But we are way off topic. Back to Indian country. There was a segment last night on 60 Minutes about jaguars and how the settlers of North America killed them off because they were a menace to their cattle; these beautiful cats would have been plentiful, don't you imagine, before the white man came to the west.
http://www.defenders.org/programs_and_policy/wildlife_conservation/imperiled_species/jaguar/
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Passing this reminder from Ella - in case you didn't realize how quickly January is passing us by -
(http://americanart.si.edu/images/1985/1985.66.600_1b.jpg)
"The Comanches are arriving tomorrow, February lst."
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Ella, I'm the one who mentioned the "blue norther" description on pages 39-40. These pages are in Chapter 4. :)
Comanches, Apaches, Kiowas, settlers and everyone else will need a pile of buffalo robes tomorrow around this area. Even the state capitol has already announced it will be closed tomorrow....and nothing has happened, yet.
I'm so looking forward to the start of the discussion. :)
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I just finished watching the BookTV interview given by the author, S.C. Gwynne. Knowing how he wrote the book (chapter by chapter) and the structure of the book (large story, then smaller story) will help me organize the story better. I'm going to go back now and skim the first chapters to see if they become clearer based on this new information.
See you all tomorrow! Great book! Great pick!
Nancy
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Here is the old West as we think of it. The transcontinental railroad has just been completed, cattle drives to the railroads, Texans making big dough, beef shipped east, a capitalist society is being formed.
Entrepreneurs heading west ready to start little farms, business booming, and then we learn that thousands of armed Indians, in war paint riding fast ponies, are killing the settlers as fast as they get within range! And with some reason we read!
And then we have restless ex-soldiers from the Union Army sitting around wondering what they are supposed to be doing, General Grant is president, and General Sherman giving orders! And, of course, they all get involved.
And, that’s just the beginning of the tale!
SO - WHAT SURPRISED YOU IN THESE FIRST FEW CHAPTERS! WHAT IMPRESSED YOU? WHAT WAS NEW?
Let's begin. There are some TALKING POINTS in the heading for your consideration but those are just suggestions.
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CALLIE, I apologize, it's the turning of the page again. I could hardly get my paper this morning off the porch, it's just ice, just ice which looks like rain until you step on it!
Stay warm everybody and be careful! Let's talk about the Indians.
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ELLA, I am surprised, and stunned by the graphic descriptions of the Indians torture, with all of the gory details. I was also surprised to learn that the French were a threat to Anglos in Texas. I was under the impression that the French were only interested in Florida.
Now, back to our book.
Sheila
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Good morning...
Hard to think of the Indians while Mother Nature is making life hard for so many of us...18" in Tulsa? Two feet of snow predicted for Chicago!
Ella asks -
WHAT SURPRISED YOU IN THESE FIRST FEW CHAPTERS! WHAT IMPRESSED YOU? WHAT WAS NEW?
For one thing, I hadn't been aware of Indian torture - beyond scalping that is. Gwynne is providing a less sympathetic way of regarding the Indians and having "their" land invaded by the heartless white man. -
I was really impressed by the number of footnotes - and the number of sources Gwynne used for this book...not only first hand accounts, but official documents and other books too. (See the back of the book - you have to impressed!)
That said, I had to question Gwynne's description of the Arkansas river - In the first chapter, on pl5, he writes:
"- in 1871 buffalo roamed the plains - a herd of 4 million near Arkansas River in southern Kansas. The main body was fifty miles deep and twenty five miles wide."
Can this be right? Maybe I'm not reading it right. Still, I was impressed at the extensive footnotes and am ready to accept this book as an important historical account.
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Ella, I do the same thing - not a problem. If my paper was delivered, it's buried under a 6" snow drift and I'm not going to look for it.
A large part of Comancheria is experiencing a Ground Blizzard today. 50mph winds are blowing snow into high drifts and the wind chill in the OK (and probably TX) panhandle area is 36º below Zero (Farenheit).
The t v weatherman commented on the dangers of ranchers having to see about their livestock. He said that, at this wind chill temperature, the water in your eyes will freeze in a few minutes.
Just imagine the Indians huddled around a fire inside a tepee. I wonder if their horses were also sheltered?
The canyons would have provided some protection and snow can be an insulator - but it would still have been a miserable experience.
Re: "What surprised you in the first few chapters?"
I was surprised to see how many Civil War officers were sent to the forts being built across the Plains and to engage in the Indian Wars. I suppose I'd never thought about it and assumed they just went home and planted tomatoes.
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one early thing that struck me about this book, was learning the Comanche, initially calling themselves 'the people/Nermernuh, were really a nondescript tribe,who barely eeked out an existance living mainly in Wyoming, eastern slope of the rockies, and were driven to it by their enemies. The tribes seemed to be the little guy with poor skills at war, and were tormented and trodden down by surrounding enemy tribes. The book suggested that they were bullied by other tribes.
Then 1625--1750 the Nermernuh had an amazing transformation into the domineering power. They owed this transformation to obtaining horses from the spanish. These horses were an agile Arabian breed, and the people now known as Comanches were adept at training, and utilization of them as no other groups appeared to be. This made them the top dogs and they used this position to give back harshly to all that had made their lives miserable before.
So the spanish were ultimately responsible for the change in balance of power among the aborigionals they came into contact with and the plains Indians in particular.
The descriptions of Indian men and womwn riding their horses was awesome, and it seemed like an Indian and his horse had a spiritual oneness together...
if the Indians had never been introduced to horses their lives would have been much different, especially the Comanche, who were an inferior tribe before their acquisition of spanish horses.
I had always thought the Apaches were the dominant tribe and I guess they were until as this book states another tribe received a new tool (the horse) and took every advantage of its being.
then it appears the Comanche with their pent up anger at being the underdog, as well as their history with other warring tribes...... became the main terrorizing warring group.
How sad it seems to me that on this continent men seemed to hold war as a full time occupation, women doing most of the work, men doing their war dances and painting themselves up for their warring, gambling....{this last part is my thoughts not all from the book}
I was recommended this book as a good read late last year, and am ever so glad it is the choice this month.
Deb
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Serenesheila wrote in post 367
>ELLA, I am surprised, and stunned by the graphic descriptions of the Indians torture, with all of the gory details. I was also surprised to learn that the French were a threat to Anglos in Texas. I was under the impression that the French were only interested in Florida.
Torture seems to have been a rather general part of most native Indian warfare cultures, but for most tribes I don’t think it was as generally as prevalent as with the Comanche as described in our book. In my reading of the book, I might have been surprised by the author used such graphic details, but I was not surprised by the fact that these practices commonly occurred. There is just too much early contemporary documentation out there relative to many different tribes to permit the denial of the reality of this history.
In east Texas the Caddo farmers too were much pre-occupied with war. Though they were always trying to get visiting Europeans to go on the war path with them, first and foremost their interest in European visitors as trading partners, trumped their interest in them as either wartime enemies or allies. Henri Joutel the La Salle lieutenant who survived to write the history of the French Texas colony tells the gruesome story of the torture of enemy prisoners brought back from a raid in which several French had participated. This included cannibalism an act that the Comanche apparently did not practice. In Texas the Tonkawa, the tribe that frequently provided the Scouts serving with the Rangers or army was the subject of Comanche scorn for their common practice of this .ceremony.
Also ‘Sheila the French were never a threat to the Anglo’s in Texas. They were here between 1685 and 1689.; They were a threat to the Spanish who before that time were quite content for the land mass north of the lower Rio Grande to be vacant. It was this French intrusion that changed this Spanish policy, and required not only Spanish interest, but also an actual Spanish physical presence. It was the event that caused the beginning of Spanish settlements in Texas.
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Gwyne's anthropological explanation of how and why the Comanche became as they were, including a brief comparison with the early Celtic tribes (wonder why he chose to compare them over other hunter gatherer societies), is interesting.
Their extremely loose group structure is very interesting. I don't recall learning of any groups that were so unorganized. Most groups I learned about had a leader of sorts, often the patriarch or matriarch as a lot of the groups were extended family groups. They struck me as somewhat democratic in that they convened a group council of sorts to arbitrate disputes.
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I was amazed at how fast the Comanches became the dominant tribe once they learned how to use horses. I was reminded of an old Star Trek directive about never showing modern technology to a culture which was in its infancy. It would cause them to leap and bound over the other cultures around them. And that's what happened with the Comanche.
I never could figure out why the newly free Americans believed the land belonged to them. I tried to imagine if another culture landed on the tip of Florida and just started defeating us and taking over "our" land. How presumptuous we were.
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Regarding blue northers mentioned above by both Jonathan and CallieinOK they were certainly a factor in many of the skirmishes mentioned in our book. Many of these battles occurred in central and north Texas or Oklahoma. Indeed it must have been a bitter time to fight particularly for the European Anglos who though better clothed than the Indians were much less physically condition than the Indians for fighting in such a winter environment.
Historians have noted the fact that the Texas climate going back to the 1400’s through the 1850’s had been colder than .in later times. This is based on early Spanish records that recorded colder winters in North Mexico including frequent winter snow storms, along the lower Rio Grande even just 100 plus miles up stream from it’s mouth. This would include the Mission San Juan Baptisista region near the Texas town of Eagle Pass.
The time before the 1850’s is sometimes described by Texas historians as “the little ice age.”. I think based on my life experience our winters here in South Texas have been successively warmer. We always use to have at least one really cold norther, sometimes two or three that seem now not to be coming. In fact I think the last one was in 1985 when we had some 13 inches of snow between 5:00Pm Friday and 1:00 PM the following Sunday.:
But today we are getting a good old fashion blue norther. Unlike the pattern described in the book with the initial cold wind, sleet and snow this one has blown in dry. But what a change it is from our 75 degree afternoon yesterday. We have the 40 MPH cold wind gusts with temperatures in the 40’s, but the predictions for the rest of the week are for lows down to 13 degrees, with a wet turn coming Wednesday night and sleet and snow forecast Thursday and Friday. This extreme may or may not happen but one thing I think is sure. That is by the week end a warming trend will set in and by the middle of next week the 75 degree afternoons will be back... I’ll keep you posted on how this scenario plays out
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This is an interesting thought. Aberlaine in you message #135. There are surely other historical examples such as the transformation of Japan as a modern industrial economy after the 1870’s opening by the U.S. Naval visit. Also perhaps another example is the modern transformation of China, India and Korea after WW II.
Regarding the Comanche’s sudden emergence I don’t doubt it was their use of the horse that made them such a potent force. They seemed particularly adapt at horsemanship. They would ride into a buffalo heard at full gallop, “look mom no Hands!” and with both hands on their bow fire 5 or more arrows a minute into the side of a buffalo running at top speed. Likewise they would charge into battle again on horseback sometimes using their horse as a shield by sliding their body under the protection of the horse's side capable of sending a rapid fire barrage of arrows into an enemy often on foot and limited to a single shot.
The Comanche were Shoshone from the mountains of Idaho, the same tribe, who supplied Lewis & Clark with horses in 1804. The Comanche had begun their separation several centuries earlier. Making their way south and east they begin acquiring horses by the mid 17th century. Where did the horses come from? It must have been from the Spanish settlements in northern New Mexico either by trade or thievery. Are could it have been wild horses, the off spring of horses lost from one of the several earlier Spanish explorations in Colorado, Kansas, new Mexico and north-west Texas? In any case by the beginning of the 18th century the Comanche had horses and they knew how to use them.
I don’t see how they managed those large horse herds that seem to have numbered sometimes in excess of 10,000. It must have been another job for women and older children . It sure took management skills complicated by the fact that the tribe was often being tracked by rangers.
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WOW! I'm so happy to see this many of you posting in our discussion during this miserable weather outside all across the USA! Thank you so much! Stay warm, stay inside, keep reading and posting!
It was CALLIE, I believe, who commented about the Plains Indians keeping warm in their teepees and wondering if their horses were sheltered? Do you think they might have been considerate enough to throw a buffalo robe over them? No, no, there were too many horses! Now if we were at the movies those horses would have had blankets over their backs and saddles; that would have helped.
A friend who is reading this book called me on the phone to express the opinion that there is so very much detail in this book, so much to talk about, and wondered how we could ever discuss it online.
Well, of course, we can and we shall and have fun doing it!! And try to forget this weather.
A few statements by you:
"stunned by the graphic descriptions of the Indians torture, with all of the gory details" - SHEILA
"For one thing, I hadn't been aware of Indian torture - beyond scalping that is." - JOANP
Is Gwynne being too graphic? Do we want the truth? Is this the truth? Is it that we don't want to read it? I don't know. What do you think?
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"Comanches became the dominant tribe once they learned how to use horses." - ABERLAINE
"it was their use of the horse that made them such a potent force. They seemed particularly adapt at horsemanship." - HAROLD
"an Indian and his horse had a spiritual oneness together."..DEB
Yes, the horse! Gwynne does emphasize the Comanches and the horse. It's amazing to me that other tribes did not catch on or catch up? Wouldn't you have thought?
But he does state that the Comanche could breed them and no other tribe could do that , or do it as well. That's a real talent I understand. Breed them for running, racing. It's done all the time in the white civilized world. Around these parts you hear about it at the Kentucky Derby!
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Before we are swallowed up by the immensity of our subject, let's try to concentrate on one idea at a time - the Indians of North America, Comanches or otherwise.
This paragraph from pg. 91 surprised me:
"Comanches were short, and they were unimpressive physically...... They were half-naked, they rode mustangs that were small, unshod, scrawny, and unattractive.....they used bows and arrows as their main weapons.......they loved to scavenge tin and iron, from which they made their weapons."
As wild as they were, as terrifying as they must have been (imagine 1000 of these coming at you) I had a different view in my imagination of the Comanche Indian.
What about their religion, their leaders or lack thereof, their livelihood, their ancestry, their place in history, their future.
Why were they so bloody?
Let's talk Indian for a little while and then we will move on to other areas of these chapters, okay?
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a little 'aside' about torture--when I was about 14 my parents first took me to St Marie Among the Hurons, and the Martyr's Shrine in Midland, Ontario....I bought a book there about a two well know French religious men (Brebeuf +Lamont) who in the late 1600s lived among the Huron of the area trying to bring Christianity to them...the book was a gruesome description of their death at the hands of a group of Indians who tied them to a bonfire, stripped them of their skin, ate their parts, ..,.,(there was some part perhaps the heart that if the tortured person was a particularly admired person would be eaten to give the eater his strength, it was believed) I was very interested in Indians at the time, I think reading this book was very hard for me, mind you I persevered ...it was not a nice picture, but it was their way...the two men were later to become 'saints'
The church is a roman catholic cathedral and stands very tall on the landscape, very beautiful with the stations of the cross around it, and it is on the Wye River, the last pope came there on a visit (I was sad that they cut down a whole forest of trees to help in parking for that visit). it has since grown partly back again
Deb
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What a fascinating story. Nancy is right. Great book! Great pick!
Nancy also goes on to mention that the Gwynne interview left her with the impression that the author had a purpose in mind with his story. That's what strikes me also. I would even be tempted to say that the author is a modern Homer, telling a modern story of war and plunder on a huge scale, rich with detail.
I guess it's the amazing Comanches, few in number, ruling such a vast domain, that surprises me. With their equestrian mobility giving them a striking range of 400 miles. Few in numbers! Finding it necessary to abduct women and children to keep the numbers up. And leaving no records. How much of the vast array of sources at the back of the book is Indian? Were they really so cruel? The author seems apologetic about introducing stories of torture. No doubt many horrific stories must have made the rounds.
And yet Cynthia Ann chose to remain with her Comanche abductor. And one hears of others who accepted that fate. Perhaps they got to like it. Perhaps it was a life of greater freedom than one in a fort. In fact there must have been a certain exhilaration about that nomadic lifestyle. How about a Sun Dance for a spiritual lift. Some might find that more attractive than a prayer meeting.
Sorry to hear about the inclement weather down there in Comanche country. How can you call it a Norther? It's balmy up here, to the north of you.
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I never stop being shocked that we just moved in and took land wherever we went. We had no regard for the indigenous peoples and vilified them for objecting! Imagine for instance in my case if the Indonesians just decided they wanted my country for its great crop growing capacity. They have a giant army and we have a minute one. However I cannot see any one of my fellow countrymen just accepting this. I think we would resort to violence too. I can't help it but my sympathies will always be with indigenous peoples.
Carolyn
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When I am taking a group of school children on a tour of the Oklahoma History Museum, I often say, “If you say the word ‘history’ very slowly, you will hear the word ‘story’. Not all parts of every story are pleasant ones. Some parts tell about mean things, some tell about sad ones. It’s the same with history. If we are going to tell the stories of the past accurately, we have to include the unpleasant parts.”
When we go through the Indian Gallery and the Afro-American Exhibit, both of which are accurate, I make sure to point out the many exhibits devoted to achievements by Native Americans and Blacks - throughout history.
I try to show that, in spite of the sad and mean things that happened to them, the contributions of both have enriched our society in many, many ways.
And so it is with the story we're discussing now - whether we like it or not.
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JOANP, I'm sure that description was of the herd of buffalo, not
the river. No rivers that big, though we did eventually find a canyon possibly that size made by a river.
CALLIE, I admire your introductory remarks to the children about history. It prepares them for hearing and seeing unpleasant things while
allowing them to be open to the good and beautiful.
I’m learning more about the early history of Texas, things that only got a paragraph or two in school.
I knew about the capture of Cynthia Ann Parker, but nothing about the Parker family and their role in the early settlement of Texas. I also did not realize that in the 1830’s, Texas was the only frontier fronting the borders of hostile tribes. All the eastern and southern tribes had already been subdued.
I had never heard of Capt. MacKenzie and his successful campaign against the Comanches. I was amazed to learn how those blundering soldiers, wholly ignorant of the ways of the Plains, managed to survive, much less eventually succeed.
I had to forget my earlier picture of the Indians as only massacring whites because we were massacring them first. Mr.Gwynne makes it very clear that the extremely savage tactics of the Comanches had been standard practice against rival tribes long before they ever saw a European.
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DEB, am so sorry the description of torture was upsetting; you were at an impressionable age when you first encountered the subject.
As JEAN said in her Post #117 - "Some of their methods of senseless torture seemed to be new to the white men but many had been carried out by the so called civilized people in Europe. Humans seem to have a great penchant for cruelty to animals and one another."
Cruelty, brutality all through mankind's history, as you all are aware.
NANCY mentioned the structure of the book. That's an important point. As I recall from Gwynne's interview on BookTV (Callie would you check this out from your tape), there are certain chapters that deal with Cynthia Parker and the white squaws and Quanah. I think the 2nd and 4th chapters are more dedicated to the subject in this week's assignment although mention is made throughout.
Gwynne wants his book not to be read as a historical account of Indian savagery or early white settlement of the Plains.
He wants this book to be read as one would read a fiction. Makes it a bit difficult to discuss, but we are good at it.
It was just 130 years or so ago that the white man was terrified of Indians, now we feel great sympathy for their way of life.
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WHY DID THE WHITE MAN COME WEST? WHAT GAVE THEM THE IDEA THEY COULD SETTLE ON THE PLAINS?
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More about light Calvary Tactics 1830’s 1870
Our book point out the tactical differences between Comanche and Rangers approaches in a battle. Interestingly it was the horse and rider armed with a short 40 inch bow that gave the Comanche their early advantage over settlers, Anglo or Spanish. The mounted Indian armed with a bow and a quiver full of arrows would typical fight from horseback. This was possible because of the speed with which a Comanche warrior could reload and fire arrows from horseback. Balanced in a crude saddle with both hands free to manipulate his bow, he would guide his war horse by movement of his knees and legs, with his hands free to fire arrows one after another in quick succession.
His enemy be it Spanish or Anglo initially prepared for battle by dismounting and continuing to engage their Indian enemy on foot. Comanche tactics involved initially stampeding the Ranger horse herd and then swooping down on their unhorsed enemy with their rapid fire arrow assault. The ranger defender with much slower fire from their muzzle loading rifle, fired from whatever ground cover that might have been available to them. Fortunately for the Rangers, Comanche, generally were not interested in sustaining long siege attacks against defenders in a partially protected position, and when facing such a situation they would ride off leaving the battered defenders to walk back to their home base often several hundred miles away.
It was the clumsiness and slow reloading of the muzzle loading rifle that create the problem in fighting from horseback. Though six shot repeating pistols became available in the late 1840’s, their reloading required removal of the cartridge cylinder, a difficult procedure from horseback during a fire fight. Also though the early six shooters were being produced they don’t seem to have been generally available in Texas until after the civil war. Then also the repeating Carbine became generally available. It was these technological improvements that turned the course by enabling Ranger units to out gun their Comanche opponents.
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Well, I will jump right in here and say that I had no idea of the cruelty foisted by the Indians upon the whites and the Spanish and the Mexicans.
Their adoption of the horse and being able to control these wild animals with a choke hold and then a soft blowing into the horse's nostrils which gentled the horse. What made them think of doing such a thing? And how did they decide how to side ride a horse and shoot their arrows 30 yards into whatever they were aiming at?
The author presents the Plains (Comanches) Indians as being behind every other group of Indians when it comes to being civilized, learning how to farm, how to make products that they could sell, wearing fabrics like wool and cotton instead of the buffalo hides. In the beginning they just weren't interested in having villages or a specific religion. They did have a spiritual outlook as to the thoughts of every thing on our earth had a spirit. According to the author, these Indians were 400 years behind the Eastern Indians and the Nothern Indians and he doesn't think that they would ever catch up.
Minus my book at the moment, I seem to remember that it was common for them to eat their enemies and hoped to take the enemy's strong spirit into their bodies. This belief is not an unfamiliar one. I believe it was Joseph Campbell in the "Power of Myth", who mentioned that the eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of a dead person was practiced throughout the ancient world. I remember Campbell talking of communities celebrating the death of a beloved member, eating the member's flesh and drinking its blood, they believed that in taking these things into their bodies, they were keeping this person's body on it path back into the earth.
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I keep noticing that Gwynne keeps coming back to this date - Oct.3, 1871 , referring to it as the beginning of the end of the Indian wars after 250 years of combat- The goal - kill the Comanches, exterminate them, I think he said. No matter where he takes us, he returns to 1871.
Babi...thank you! Gwynne was talking about the size of the buffalo herd, not the depth and width of the Arkansas River? Funny! Thank you!
Carolyn - "I can't help it but my sympathies will always be with indigenous peoples." Can we really call the Comanches "indigenous"? Gwyne describes these Indians as "brutal - demonic satanic - gang rapists." "Not only did they torture - they ENJOYED IT!" The Comanches practiced this torture on other tribes as they took over their land. I can't see them as "indigenous" to this land.
Babi - says these savage tactics of the Comanches had been standard practice against rival tribes long before they ever saw a European. Yes, I think that's right. Gwynne says that "the discovery of agriculture in Asia and the Middle East around 6500 BC allowed the transition from nomadic hunter/gatherer societies to the higher civilizations that followed. But the Indians in America did not discover farming until 4000 years later. A tremendous gap. - And the Non agrarian Plains Indians were even further behind. This accounts for the differences. To me, it's as if a herd of Tyrannasaurus Rex came into contact with a tamed herd of...buffalo, thousands of years later. Neither would understand the practices of the other as they struggled to survive.
Annie - the Plains Indians didn't spend time curing and preparing their buffalo meat, did they? I remember reading how they would just eat barely cooked chunks of buffalo meat. Cannabalism was only one step beyond eating buffalo meat. These interlopers were their enemies.
Of course, to their enemies, the Comanches were savage killers. .
Ella, that's a thought-provoking question -
WHY DID THE WHITE MAN COME WEST? WHAT GAVE THEM THE IDEA THEY COULD SETTLE ON THE PLAINS?
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Ella asked: WHY DID THE WHITE MAN COME WEST? WHAT GAVE THEM THE IDEA THEY COULD SETTLE ON THE PLAINS? This same question in slightly different words has been asked in sever other posts yesterday.
To a contemporary settler, be he Spanish, Portuguese, English or French going back to the 1492 discovery of America by Columbus the land was their gift from god, theirs for their taking. It was their manifest destiny, their reward from god. If they owed any obligation to the native populations it was only to remold them in their image as Christians after the model of contemporary European peasants. The land and all its resources was there for the taking a gift to them from god, and they were ready, and willing to title as much as possible. Native population be damned
I know this view does not reflect the popularly conceived contemporary attitude toward their ancestors but after viewing contemporary attitudes today toward the accumulation of wealth and property, I sort of doubt that the present generation if presented with a similar situation, would act much differently than their ancestors
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Thank you, Harold! I have been thinking most of the morning about how to comment on western expansion.
Why did anyone come to the American continents (North or South) from "somewhere else" in the first place? Why did the Comanches and other tribes try to expand their territories? Why did so many Irish come to America during the Potato Famine? Why did the so-called "Okies" go to California during the Dust Bowl? Why do people today accept corporate moves?
IMO, it's because of 1) curiousity, 2) adventure and/or 3) the vision of an opportunity for a better way of life, whatever the definition of that might be to the individual.
Ella, I haven't yet had a chance to check the interview for Gwynne's comments on Cynthia Ann and Quanah. Will do so ASAP.
In the Notes on page 322, there is a long comment on Gwynne's original source for the story of Rachel Plummer in Chapter Two.
I could be mistaken, but I don't think Cynthia Parker ever wrote about her experiences. Again IMO, I wonder if she would have become so well-known if she had not been the mother of Chief Quanah?
At the beginning of the discussion, I commented on the need to be careful about comparing these Plains Tribes with the agrarian Tribes. Joan's comments on the huge cultural differences are "spot on".
Pages 60-61, the many facets of the Comanches are discussed in more detail. One statement that caught my eye was: "In addition to their prowess in war, the Comanches were great merchants and traders. ...in 1748, the tribe was officially admitted to the Taos trade fair".
Pages 70-72 describe what happened when a new Spanish governor wanted to make friends and allies of the Comanches. In light of later history re: treaties with the Indians, this effort had amazing results.
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Why did the white man come west? Good question. One could also ask, why did the Comanche come south from Wyoming. Whatever the reason, the result led to the confrontation between nomad and settler, which provided Gwynne with a theme for his amazing 'story'. As he puts it on page 53:
an immense struggle for control of the center of the North American continent....
I think Gwynne is trying to be even-handed in the attribution of savagery between the native and the white intruder. So much of the atrocity, he tells us constantly, was motivated by vengeance.
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JoanP—hahah, I love the pictures of the marauding Indians in post #294. As far as this:
The Comanches practiced this torture on other tribes as they took over their land. I can't see them as "indigenous" to this land.
Why not? weren't they endemic to the west? Natives (no pun intended here)?
Sheila- it is the same as we discussed in Little Bee, abuse of fellow man is inherent in all cultures. To the Indians it wasn't torture , it was expected that they ravage the enemy- they were trying to keep their own culture strong and we were invading their territory.
They were taught, I'm sure to dismantle and desecrate, with vigor OR- perhaps they believed if the tribe destroyed and crushed the enemy, leaving the abhorrent remains to be seen, it would be an admonition to others to back off and leave them in peace.
Yes Callie- I loved that - Hi(STORY.)
As Harold so aptly put it- it is a reality! Thank you Harold for the mention of the differences in the fighting sides in regards to firearms vs. the bow and arrow. I would imagine that that came as a heck of a shock to many of those former soldiers.
When I was young, I always rooted for the injuns- I wonder if I might have some Apache blood coursing thur my own veins?
Deb mentioned the acquisition of the horses from the Spanish and what a fortunate accomplishment that was for the tribes. It allowed them free and rapid access to the western plains. How did they learn to ride so admirably?
Why did they go? Why not- the war was over, the west needed exploration and those that had gone before were slowly leaving. We MUST occupy land and resources. It's no different today.
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I quote from the last few pages we just read. From Mary Maverick's memoir: "They were drawn to the
west by the wildness and danger and daring of the frontier life."
I thought that the separation of History was "his story" or "her story". Meaning that calling this story history is telling us the story of male battle cries--on both sides.
When I started reading this book, I thought we were into another "poor indian" tale. But, I find that I can't feel sorry for the Comanche or their cohorts. But, it looks to me as if both sides were bloodthirsty before this part of history came to an end.
JoanP,
I was not speaking of eating of buffalo.
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Indigenous peoples are those who settled the land before being colonised. If settlers had not come into the area there would have been no killings of white people. To call these people savages is the pot calling the kettle black. Colonists all over the world committed terrible atrocities. In fact Australian aborigines were massacred in the forties and fifties. (20th century)Can anyone here say with all honesty no atrocities were committed by white settlers?
Are cluster bombs atrocious? I think they are. There has also been torture during modern day conflicts and we tend to brush these incidents under the carpet.
The Indian was only protecting their territory just as we would if suddenly we were confronted with an invasion from another culture into our countries. People coming and settling on land that we regarded as ours. The Indians were semi nomadic and ranged over wide areas moving camps according to the seasons.
So far I think this book is terribly one sided. However I will read on.
Carolyn
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I believe so many of the Europeans came to the new continents to escape religious persecutions especially from England; then there were areas of Scotland where people who were under a lord working his property were displaced when sheep farming came in and was found to be more lucrative to the landowner.
These displaced people, one would think would have some humility after being pushed out of their home lands and be thankful to share land that was not theirs to begin with in the Americas. It appeared initially Indians were accepting of these new invading groups of people crossing the oceans, even teaching them how to cope with plantings, gathering crops, weather protection. The Europeans in their pompous ways felt so pleased they in turn felt they should aid the Indians in becoming good Christians. The Europeans always thinking theirs was the better way.
The misunderstanding of these two cultures; the Europeans not comprehending the differences in social, political structure used their standpoint to consider all they were viewing, and very few tried to see the other sides viewpoint. Christianity was imposed upon the Indians, and the Indian ways were looked down upon...... with the few exceptions if their way was useful to the white man---like the growing of crops in the new climate,
The fact that the white men were slow learners in a number of instances i.e. riding to a waring group of horse mounted Indians, then dismounting to fight, time and time again (this was the army's way of war and it was not mandated otherwise)
I am reminded of hearing a speech being translated for an Arabian and an American, and its translation word for word did not do justice to the meaning behind words and paragraphs....the understandings of intent of words was not getting thru
Rory Stewart -author of---"The Prince of the Marshes"
"The Places in Between"
a Scottish man spent time travelling in Afghanistan thru rural areas and the reader was shown total different mindsets of people
so when leaders would meet the words would flow, but the understanding was poor due to cultural ways
so it was with the Indian and the white man--but the whiteman did not appear to try to comprehend from where the Indian's point of view was coming from//nor did he seem to care
Deb
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ELLA, in a nutshell, white men came west because they were hungry
for land of their own. They thought they could settle on the plains
mostly because they were totally ignorant about them. The only
places on the plains at all suitable for farming were right on the
rivers, hopefully with a few sturdy trees for windbreaks. And of
course, the Indians would be routinely traveling along those same
rivers. Trying to settle on the plains was a really, really bad idea.
ANNIE, I am seeing much about the Comanches and their knack with
horses that reminds me they came to North American overland from
the steppes of Russia. I can't help thinking that these are the
descendents of the horsemen who were the terror of Europe. Maybe
this knowledge was in their genes.
CAROLYN, nobody would even try to deny that atrocities were
committed by the whites against the Indians. (Or, I should say,
the Native Americans.) I am just having to adjust the picture that
I was presented with growing up, that the Indians were innocent
peoples defending themselves. Obviously, there were differences
between them and some were extremely aggressive and bloody-minded.
CALLIE, it is remarkable to me that while I had heard of Cynthia Ann Parker, whose claim to fame is that her half-Indian son became an important Comanche war chief, I had never heard of Rachel Parker Plummer, whose story is so much more remarkable.
It is not clear to me how Rachel Plummer kept the detailed information she gathered, such as “details of the flora, fauna, and geography that she saw”. Such information must have been of great value to those newly come to the land, but did she keep all that information stored in her memory? I can’t imagine she had the materials or the time to keep a daily journal. To remain so alert and observant, in the harsh circumstances of her slavery among the Comanche, is most remarkable. I would like to read her book.
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Good question Babi- It makes one wonder if maybe Rachael wrote it in the wind. At the time of her abduction, I'm sure the diaries were destroyed along with the cabin.
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"Indigenous peoples are those who settled the land before being colonised." Carolyn
My question concerns ONLY the Comanches right now...calling then "indigenous" when they seem to simply be vicious marauders of the Plains which had been previously settled by other Indian tribes. I don't see them "settling" the land at all. Do they have legitimate claim to this land? -
I guess am looking at them through the cultural lens of the white man, Deb. The Comanches had successfully driven out other inhabitants of this land...and in their eyes it was now theirs. The white man was trying to take it from them by settling in their territory. They had no choice but to protect their hard-won territory...in the only way they knew how.
So why is the white man here? Annie quotes Mary Maverick's memoir: "They were drawn to the
west by the wildness and danger and daring of the frontier life." Maybe they were, but can you understand bringing wives and children out to face this danger?
Hadn't they heard of the rape, the kidnappings? Maybe not.
Babi, I'm interested in Rachel Plumnmer's diary too. I followed a footnote in Chapter 2 to the back of the book. In Chapter 2, note #13, there is reference to two of her memoires:
Rachel Plummer's Narrative of Twenty-one Months Servitude as a Prisoner among the Comanche Indians and Narrative of the Capture and Subsequent Sufferings of Mrs. Rachel Plummer. Don't you think she kept all of these observations in her head during her 20 month captivity and then wrote them down after her return? I find it hard to believe she'd have had the time and materials to write these memoirs while in captivity.
I made a note about the Parker family's reason for coming to Texas in 1833. "In exchange for promising allegiance to Mexico (Texas a part of Mexico) the heads of the Parker families were each given 4300 acres near Mexia in centeral Texas. No taxes. Magnificent land - fertile near Navasota River."
Does this answer your question about what drew people to the West, Ella?
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About the fascination of the people who moved to the Texas frontier, I am also reading another book on this topic of captured children in Texas, and the author quotes another historian, T.R. Frerenbach who said, "The type of white person drawn to the frontier, either as a settler or an Indian fighter, was one whose life was given to ceaseless action, rarely reflection or philosophy....only a handful of the thousands of Texans who battled Indians on the frontier ever bothered to write down their observations."[/b]
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Quotes:
Page 79: "(Colonel John Moore) was blessed with the same character trait that made pioneers want to settle the wildest and most hostile regions of the country, where their families were likely to be raped and disemboweled: heedless, unwarranted optimism." (Apparently, Gwynne's opinion)
Page 85: quoting a report from TX Ranger Noah Smithwick about Comanche spokesman Spirit Talker: "If the white men would draw a line defining their claims and keep on their side of it the red men would not molest them."
One of the discussion questions asked how Texas Republic president Mirabeau Lamar's Indian policy differed from that of his predecessor, Sam Houston.
Pages 73 ff (and particularly, page 74) address this. Houston took a conciliatory approach toward the Indians. Lamar "...believed that Indians should be either expunged from Texas or killed outright." (Page 75)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb. 1 - 7 Chapters 1 - 7
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 1-7 ~ Chapters 1 - 7
1. Why do you think the Indians captured Cynthia Ann Parker? Of what use would she be in the tribe?
2. Why would the white settlers believe the westward lands belonged to them?
3. Why did both Spain and then Mexico encourage Anglos from the U.S. to move to Texas by giving them large tracks of free land with the promise of no taxes for 10 years
4.. How did the Comanche tribe become the single dominant Indian force in the western states?
5. Twenty thousand Comanches, divided into five bands of approximately 4000 members each, lived in harmony with each other and had little system of government. How was this possible?
6. How were the Apaches, and, subsequently, the Spanish, conquered by the Comanches?
7. The Republic of Texas elected Mirabeau B. Lamar as its second president in 1838, How did his Indian policy differ from those of the first President Sam Houston. Were settlers on the frontier more or less safe as the result of Lamar's policy changes?
8. What were a few of the weaknesses or mistakes made by the Indians in their battles with the whites? Mistakes and successes made by the Rangers and the Army?
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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Good explanation, Harold, of why the explorers believed the land was there for the taking. Thank you.
HEEDLESS UNWARRANED OPTIMISM! Thank you, Callie, I think that must be true. On page 13 our author talks about settlers who came in 1836 - in OXCARTS (were they like covered wagons that we have seen in the movies?) - families came because Mexico (Texas was still in their hands) promised them each 4600 acres of land. IMAGINE THAT! What a windfall!
Wouldn't you have come?
Well, not me, I'm not the hardy type to venture west in a wagon or a cart and I would have been terrified of tales of Indians.
Now I looked up our author's source in his notes for that gift of land and he has verified the Parker land by a deed which is in the Center for American history at the University of Texas.
But as our author says, how ironic! Mexico needed them as a buffer against the Comanches. They were terrified of the Comanches also.
And so the settlers came, the Parker family among them, to a LETHAL PARADISE!
more later....
How is the weather in your part of the country? Ohio is better today and I managed to get out of the driveway which has been covered in ice! (post from Ella)
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I was hoping that CRESCENTWITCH (Kay), who is new to our site, would join in our discussion.
ARE YOU OUT THERe? PLEASE POST IF YOU ARE FOLLOWING ALONG WITH US.
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Gosh, away from my computer for one day and look at all the posts.
My meager comment is that I remember, years back, reading that advertisements by various groups, including our government, neglected to mention the dangers, but emphasized the advantages and promised all kinds of things to get people to settle the West. I think I will go see if I can find any of those ads.
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Wouldn't you have come?
One of my friends quotes his wife as saying, "I would never have left England". :)
(Off subject) The Oklahoma Land Runs (1889-1892) promised Homesteads of 160 acres. They weren't exactly free because it cost $50.00 to file the claim and "improvements" had to be made within a certain time limit.
One of my favorite stories about this experience is the fellow who read the law stating "a structure measuring 12 x 12 must be built..." He noticed that it didn't give the exact definition of 12 x 12 - so he built something that was 12 inches x 12 inches - and got away with it.
Outside temperature at my house has risen from 2ºF to 9! Traffic seems to be moving o.k. on the main east-west street that I can see and family has all gotten to work o.k. Side streets are a different matter.
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FRYBABE, you have such ads? Oh, wonderful!! What years are we talking about here? I'm 82 years old and I do remember in 1961 when we bought out second home two of our neighbors were selling out and moving "west, where everything, including jobs, is happening." And, of course, in later years California has been the seat of our computer tech in this country.
CALLIE, what a funny story, Thank you for that! Hahahaaaaa
You mentioned MIRABEAU BUONAPARTE LAMAR (pg. 73), fascinating fellow. Our author calls him "a dangerous, mean, and uncompromising son of a bitch." Read about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirabeau_B._Lamar
And then there is this:
Lamar was the unanimous choice to replace Houston as president in 1838, and was inaugurated on December 1, 1838.[2] It was said that when Houston was giving his farewell speech, Houston was dressed like George Washington. When he went on the stage he noticed that Lamar was eager to give his speech.[citation needed] Houston lengthened his farewell address to 3 hours, "which so unnerved Lamar that he was unable to read his inaugural speech." Instead, it was given by his aide, Algernon P. Thompson.[2] In his first formal address to the Texas Congress several weeks later, Lamar urged that the Cherokee and Comanche tribes be driven from their lands in Texas, even if the tribes must be destroyed. He also proposed to create a national bank and to secure a loan from either the United States or Europe. Finally, he opposed annexation to the United States and wished to entice European countries to recognize the Republic of Texas.[5]
Imagine a politician today urging the destruction of a tribe of Indians! The times, they do change! History!
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Well, I am not having a lot of luck finding actual ads so far, except for this one selling Nebraska land. http://www.elderweb.com/book/export/html/2816
We had a lot of folks trying to pass through to the west coast because of the gold rush. I expect some of them decided to settle along the way, and some would have written friends and relatives about the lands they went through just ripe for the picking in their view. And, in the late 1800s the railroads were selling a lot of land cheaply to get people to settle and use their railways.
Here is an interesting article regarding squatters in Kansas.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2004/aug/29/us_government_threw/
I also ran across an article regarding Virginia and the remaining reservations in Virginia. I know that isn't our focus, but it is an interesting article non-the-less.
http://www.dhr.virginia.gov/arch_NET/timeline/modern_indian.htm
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My surprise, and shock about the Indian torture and killing, was over the desription of cutting off the victims genatalia. I knew that scalping was done a lot. But, never before reading this book, had I heard about the dismemberment. I am not sorry to be reading this book, new information is often surprising.
ELLA, your comment about blankets being thrown over the horses in a storm, gave me quite a laugh. After my family moved into a home on some acreage for our horses, we had a bad rain and wind storm. I was quite upset to see our horses standing in the open during the storm. My husband laughed at me. He said that horses usually just turn their rear section to the wind.
My dictionary defines the word INDIGENOUS as: "having originated in, and being produced, growing, living, or occurring, naturally in a particular region or environment. (the indigenous culture)" IMO this applies to the American Indian tribes.
It seems to me that many of the settlers moved West, to seek land. Also, many had a deep sense of adventure. My own maternal, great grandparents moved to Oklahoma, to acquire land, when it opened up for settlement. Several of my family then moved to California, during the Dust Bowl.
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I had to laugh at the comments about Mirabeau B. Lamar. I graduated from Mirabeau B. Lamar High School in Houston, TX, many, many years ago. The school mascot was "The Redskins" - and still is. Definitely ironic!
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A few quick comments about the Lamar Administrations.
He had distinguished himself as commander of the Calvary at San Jacinto. In 1838 as President he was definitely a nationalist. I'm not sure but by 1845 he may have come around to support the annexation. During his administration he opposed ratification of the several treaties that Houston had negotiated with the Cherokee and other immigrant Tribes from the U.S. In this case all failed to gain approval by the Senate except one with the Alabama-Coshatta who today occupy one of the three Reservations in Texas. All the rest were rejected and the tribes later were removed from Texas by the U.S. Lamar also sent a military Company of Volunteers west to raise the Flag at Santa Fe. After a difficult trip they were easily defeated by the Mexican force. Many were shot and the rest imprisoned for years. It was a complete military failure.
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Regarding the change in Spanish Policy permitting Anglo settlers to settle Texas:
Throughout the 18th Century the RULE ONE governing Spanish immigration policy was no foreigners allowed. Settlement was to be by Spanish only or by Mexican Indians who by the 18th century were largely Hispanicize. The fact is that there was not much interest in moving to Texas in the Spanish world. In 1731 they induced some 18 Canary Island families to come to Texas with promises of irrigated land and other perks including ennoblement. Yet even by 1820 the total Hispanic population north of the Rio Grande was not much above 2,000.
The principal force prompting the Spanish to change this policy to let Anglos immigrate was in fact the coming of the Comanche. A hundred years earlier the principal Buffalo hunting tribe in Texas was the Lipan Apache. Then the Comanche were almost unheard of, but by the 18-teens the Comanche’s warlike presence and the unavailability of resident defenders was a problem that could not be ignored. This was certainly a principal motivating force leading to negotiations with Moses and Stephen F. Austin that led to a contract authorizing the Austin’s to recruit 300 immigrant families from the U.S. to settle in Texas. This contract was ratified by the New Republic of Mexico created in 1821by the successful Mexican revolution. Each family was to receive large tracts of land on which they must settle tax free for 10 years. They were supposed to be Roman Catholic but as a practical matter this provision seems to have been generally ignored. Mexico also awarded similar contracts to several other Anglos to import additional settlers from the U.S. The result was that by 1836 the total population north of the Rio Grande was over 10,000 with the Anglo population outnumbering the Hispanic by about 4 to1.
The Parker's appear to have been one of the beneficiaries of one of these contracts. They seem to have built a walled defensive compound that if properly manned and if properly managed would have prevented the Parker deaths and kidnappings that day in June 1836 when the Comanche raiding party appeared. As our book described the scene that day, the Parkers when the Comanche war party appeared failed to shut their stockade gate and man their walls. Instead the Comanche entered through open gates killing and assaulting individual men. Had the gates been closed and the walls defended it is unlikely that the Comanche would have lingered long to siege the defended position. Instead true to their Comanche custom they would have killed or stolen any stray horses or cattle outside the defended compound and hurried away to find other less defended opportunities. As it was with the gates open and the walls undefended the defenders were quickly over whelmed and subject to death rape, kidnapping and torture.
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The Comanche owned the Plains because they defeated the other tribes there. They were small and not good looking - at least not like those Indians portrayed in our Hollywood versions of the wild west. They didn't settle anywhere, so couldn't be attacked, didn't have religion or any skills other than warfare. They became dominant over other tribes simply through luck - they were able to use the horse to a better advantage.
This is true for any other culture which has subdued another. If they were stronger, wiser or had a technological advantage, they won. The repeaters changed the course of American history. Once the white settlers/army stopped dismounting to fight and once they had a gun that they didn't have to reload so often, the advantage was theirs.
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Do you think that the Carters left their property unguarded because they were arrogant enough to think that their reputation of power would protect them? So many people have been done in by. their arrogance and idea that they are untouchable. I know that my ancestors came from Ireland because there was nothing for them there but the feudal system and starvation. That would tend to make one brutal and take whatever is up for grabs especially with the manifest destiny philosophy using whatever weapons necessary to get the job done.Is burning at the stake more humane than roasting over a fire? The Europeans also hanged children over the age of seven for minor crimes so who are we to pass judgement on another culture? We should clean up our own act first.
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Out ancestors also transported little children for stealing food because they were starving. They were shipped out to penal colonies.
Carolyn
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The indians had a low fertility rate so any female that could survive their hardships was a prime candidate for motherhood.I dont knowif they had the concept of bringing new genes into the tribe to strenthen the populace but even some of the more iltelligent species dont intermarry. The orcas in the pacific wont mate with members of their own pod. Maybe there was some race memory for the actions that they tood. It makes sense that if a kidnappep child could survive the culture she must have some strong attributes to pass on. Children adapt more easily to a new culture than adults do and contaminate it less as in the case of the Parker child. She was able leave behind all of her civilized teachings and become a functioning member of the tribe and seemed happy tolive that life. Certainly a survivor.
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could not the Comanches have learned their brutal retaliation from being initially the inferior race, picked on my other tribes (other tribes being the bullies so to speak, took full advantage of being top dog) so when the Comanches rose to that position, their anger knew no bounds....I knew there was honour in a man being killed being strong, and therefore it would be strengthening to people to eat his heart to gain his strength....but I didn't realize certain tribes were cannibals eating their victims
Deb
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How interesting that we should have a graduate of Mirabeau B. Lamar High School participating in this discussion. How is he regarded now, Mary? Just look how he has been honored in Texas:
'Lamar County, in northeast Texas, and Lamar, a small unincorporated community in Aransas County on the Texas Gulf Coast, are both named for Mirabeau Lamar. Lamar Boulevard, a major thoroughfare in Austin, also carries his name, as do many streets around Texas.
Also named for him are Lamar University in Beaumont, Lamar State College - Port Arthur in Port Arthur, Lamar State College in Orange, and Lamar Institute of Technology in Beaumont, as well as Lamar High School in Houston, Lamar High School in Arlington, Lamar Consolidated High School in Rosenberg; also Lamar Middle School in Austin, Lamar Middle School in Dallas, Lamar Middle School in Irving; elementary schools in Amarillo, Corpus Christi, El Paso and San Antonio, and The Woodlands; as well as numerous other K-12 schools throughout Texas.' (from the link supplied by Ella, 164)
Not bad for a man who is described as, 'even by frontier standards, a dangerous, mean, and uncompromising son of a bitch. A truculent Indian-annihilator and would-be empire builder.
He seems to have been the man of the hour, with his get tough policy. After the raid at Parker's Fort, white men had been pouring into Texas by the thousands...the frontier had exploded in violence. Comanche attacks escalated...more than one hundred captives were carried off. Most, like little nine-year-old Cynthia Ann Porter, were, simply, heartbreakingly gone. And Lamar's rallying cry: extinction or expulsion.pages74-5
How heartbreaking a few pages later to read about the father calling for his daughter, after attacking and overruniing a Comanche camp, Matilda, if you are here, run to me. p81
How did Lamar ever come by his given names? Born on a Georgia plantation, in 1798, with a father and/or mother following French politics. Both Mirabeau and Buonaparte were both very prominent in French revolutionary times.
What an engrossing tale. Didn't Lamar begin by clearing eastern Texas of Indian tribes? Was that to make way for Southern plantation owners to expand into Texas?
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Obviously, Lamar was considered one of the Texas heroes. We moved from Texas in 1962, and that was a different time. So I have no idea how he's regarded now.
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There was a lot of shifting around as tribes moved in search of
better hunting grounds, or because a bigger tribe was pushing them
out. A tribe could 'claim' whatever they could hold, and the
Comanches were the biggest, meanest claimants around.
As to Rachel, JOAN, that was exactly my point. She had no way to
write all that down, so she was writing from memory. I'm sure those
memories were fresh and very strong, but the apparent detail of her
observations is impressive. I'm amazed she had the strength and
energy to even look around, considering what she was going through.
MARYZ.. Three cheers for Lamar High Schools Redskins!! :D
This observation really caught my attention; I’d never considered that aspect of the situation before. “Neither the Americans nor the Indians they confronted along that raw frontier had the remotest idea of the other’s geographical size or the military power.” At the time of the attack on Parker’s Fort in 1836, the Comanches controlled a “military and trade empire that covered some 240,000 square miles…”. A pity we didn’t realize that. Do you think the government would have taken a more respectful approach if they had realized what they were facing.?
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CAROLYN - tell us why you think this book is "terribly one-sided."
Of course you laughed, MARY! So the man, Lamar, is still well thought in your parts of Texas obviously! But you are still calling your teams "Redskins" - I thought there was an uproar about such names a few years ago - well, uproars die don't they?
Texas, around these parts (Ohio) is still rather awesome! It's huge and takes forever to drive through and is the land where long movies, most about cowboys, are made. People like guns there. Songs are sung about the state.
GIVE ME LAND, LOTS OF LAND, DON'T FENCE ME IN!
YELLOW ROSE OF TEXAS
Many more I'm sure. And Texas is always threatening to leave the Union when things don't go their way! Spoiled, they are! hahahaaaaa
But back to the book. And the Indians.
One of you mentioned the Indians needed women and that's why they captured Cynthia Ann and Rachel. I read about it somewhere but have no time this morning to look it up. The battles were taking their toll of the young men who could beget other young men if they were around. And they did need male babies. How pleased Cynthia and her husband, Peta Nocona must have been to have a boy; being a mother (as perhaps most of us are) does it really surprise us that Cynthia wanted to go back to the Indian village where her children were? Not me.
I am late for an appt. this morning and have no time for more comments.
WHAT DO ALL OF YOU HAVE TO SAY THIS BRIGHT MORNING. It's nice in Ohio, cold, of course, but no snow, no rain, no ice.
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I see I have missed reading a few posts above. No time this morning. I'll read more when I get back.
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR POSTING. IT'S WONDERFUL TO COME IN THE MORNING AND READ ABOUT THE BOOK AND TO KNOW YOU ARE ALL HERE AND INTERESTED IN HISTORY AND IN POSTING!
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Ella, yes, I was surprised, too, that they were still The Redskins.
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DON'T FENCE ME IN
I can hear the Comanches singing that. Hating the white settlers for bringing those fences in with them. The Comanches made many enemies in extending their 'rule' over 240,000 square miles of empire.
To their enemies, the Comanches were implacable killers, grim apostles of darkness and devastation. Inside their own camps... page47 a noisy, jolly, rollicking, mischief-loving braggadocio, brimful of practical jokes and rough fun of any kind...rousing the midnight echoes with song and dance, whoops and yells....He loved to sing. He often woke up singing and sang before he went to bed....He would dance for hours....He doted on his family...and he loved to talk...vaunting his exploits in love, war, on the chase, and will commit all sorts of extravagances while telling.
I wonder if he was the knight on the fiery steed for some of his victims. This is no book for bleeding hearts. Terrible things happened on the frontier. What an epic.
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Oh, you are right, JONATHAN. Terrible things happened on the frontier, but as JEAN stated in her post the Europeans were hanging children at the age of 7 for minor crimes, and CAROLYN commented about transporting young children to penal colonies for stealing when starving.
It puts cruelty in perspective! Yes, the Indians were very brutal but as you read further you will see that the white man could match them, they learned how to fight, how to protect their own, and they locked their gates!
(I did smile, Jonathan, at the image of the Comanches dancing to the tune of Don't Fence Me In, hahaaaa, one has to keep a sense of humor in this life or any life)
But I keep forgetting about Texas being a Republic, the state is unique, really. The facts are:
Texas declared independence from Mexico on March 2, 1836, to become the Republic of Texas.
Texas was admitted to the Union on December 29, 1845, as the 28th state.
For eight years it was a sovereign nation. A year earlier it had a population of only 40,000 (pg.14) That's not very many people, barely over the size of a village in Ohio. And yet, they had a government. It seems these people knew how to form one, - Samuel Houston was twice elected president of the Republic of Texas (the first time on September 5, 1836). He served from October 22, 1836, to December 10, 1838, and again from December 12, 1841, to December 9, 1844.
I think that is remarkable. And we ought to pay a bit more attention to Sam Houston, a remarkable man (Texas has had many of them!) What do you think of this one?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Houston#Republic_of_Texas
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Did you notice how the Santa Fe New Mexico Spanish first became aware of the Comanche? Their previous principal Indian enemy, the Apache was acting strange by moving west away from their earlier Eastern New Mexico hunting ground. In fact they were running away to the West. The New Mexico settlement too was soon terrorized by the new enemy, the Comanche.
In the mid 18th century the New Mexico administration came up with a novel solution to their problem. They successfully negotiated a treaty with the Comanche that really amounted to the paying of annual tribute. It was in the form of a trade treaty that included annual rather lavish gifts to the Comanche as well as trade of Santa Fe corn and Irion hatchets arrow points, knives and other military hardware in exchange for buffalo robes. Our Author considered this treaty the only successful treaty made by the Europeans with the Comanche. It kept the New Mexico settlements largely free from Comanche terror.
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Our book also told how in Texas the Lipan Apache tricked the Spanish into providing them Spanish military protection by indicating their sudden desire for a mission and missionaries in their own country. The Spanish took the bait and in 1754 sent three priests to build a mission on the San Saba River some 200 miles west of San Antonio. The Mission complex included in addition to the mission a Presidio manned by 200 Spanish soldiers.
When the Comanche heard of the mission supposing supporting their Apache enemy, they organized an unusually large war party numbering some 2,000 warriors. Its composition was mostly Comanche from all Comanche tribes plus Kiowa, Wichita, and others, even Caddo from East Texas. When the War Party arrived the soldiers with their dependents were secure in their stone fort. The Comanche hit the mission just 2 ½ miles from the Presidio killing two of the three priests plus several soldiers and workers also at the mission. The Presidio commander did not try to aid the mission because he felt it would endanger the several hundred woman and children dependents at the fort. The Comanche true to their traditional reluctance to siege or attack well defended positions left for other devilment elsewhere. The San Saba Mission was never operational after that and after a few years the Spanish moved the Presidio soldiers to San Antonio ending their hope of Christianizing the Apache.
In 1990 I happened to be in Houston Texas visiting a large Museum of Art. There I encountered a single large oil painting. It was obvious Spanish Colonial showing two Franciscan Priests one on each side with a background showing Indians ravishing a mission structure. In the manner in which dialog is indicated in a modern comic strip, I read in Spanish an in memoriam tribute to the two Priests Killed at that 1755 Comanche attack at San Saba . It seems this painting had been commissioned about 1760 by the family of one of the priests. It had been illegally imported into the U.S. and the Mexican Government had filed Suit in Federal Court to force its return. While the litigation was in progress It was being preserved at the museum I was visiting.
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Harold, I noticed that - the Comanches signed a bunch of treaties, which they never honored - but they did keep the trade treaty. If only a lesson how been learned from that - maybe things would have been different - what do you think? Or do you think the only solution was to rid the land of the Comanches, treaty or no. Ella, I liked Sam Houston too...a peaceful man. BUT I can understand the frustration of the Parkers when he refused to help the rescue operation to get Rachel and the children back. Lamar was different - he was eager to comply - his goal - to "exterminate" the Comanche - no treaties, no ransom of prisoners, just exterminate them. Period. Don't know how this would help get Rachel back though.
Did you notice that Houston was re-elected again just two years after Lamar had replaced him?
Maryz...too too funny - ironic, that the man who wanted to exterminate the "redskins" has a high school named after him - with a football team called "redskins." Did you study the history when you were in school? Were there any real Indians in your school? Did anyone realize who strange this was? I just had to look up your alma mater to see if the team is still called "Redskins"....
Lamar High School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamar_High_School_(Houston,_Texas))
"Lamar High School's sports' mascot is the "Lamar Redskins." There were plans to phase out the "Redskins" into the "Rangers" as "Redskins" is considered derogatory to the Native American population. So far, the girls' dancing squad, the "Arrowettes", has been permanently given a new name (the "Rangerettes").
Were you an "Arrowette"? I'll bet you were! ;)
I got thinking about the term - "Indians" after reading this -
"In 1520 Indians numbered 11 million after Cortes arrived - numbers plummeted to ONE million in 1650. The indios played the role of serfs. Is this where the term, "INDIANS" comes from? Does anyone know?
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What I was always told, JoanP, was that Columbus, originally thinking he as actually made it to the spice islands and the Indian subcontinent, called the native population Indians, and it stuck. Is indios the Spanish for Indian?
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regarding Sam Houston; I remember reading somewhere how he joined a group of Indians (not sure which group & apparently of his own free will) and liked their lifestyle enough that he periodically went back to live with them, considering many his friends....has anyone read more about this, it is something I would be interested in learning more about....!!!!!
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I keep wondering where those population figures came from, JOANP.
No one was taking a census then. As to the term "Indians", I always
supposed it was because it was originally thought Columbus had
discovered his way to the Indies. That was what he was looking for.
I am having trouble keeping up; there is so much information! Now I
have another favorite misconception shot down….the notion that the Indians only killed buffalo to meet their needs for food and hides for tents and clothing. It seems the Comanche also killed buffalo just for the hides, for trading. Where they might kill 6 for personal use, they would kill an average of 44 per year for the value of their hides. That,
by the way, was the reason they wanted older women captives. They
needed extra hands to work those buffalo hides.
No conventional system of law, no police. I note that adultery was considered a crime, tho’ it doesn’t say whether that applies to husband as well as wife. If someone was wronged it was up to the individual to bring a complaint before the council.
The Comanches carried individual freedom to a level rare in that day. There was no hereditary leadership and even the clan ‘chiefs’ could not force members of the band to do anything. Any warrior who felt like it could call for a raid and those who felt like joining him could do so. A
Comanche warrior did exactly what he felt like doing, whenever he felt
like doing it. Extraordinary!
At least I had the pleasure of meeting Don Juan Bautista de Anza.
Brilliant, an experienced Indian fighter, yet also able to establish a lasting
treaty with the Comanche. We could use a few like him today.
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As to the term "Indians", I always
supposed it was because it was originally thought Columbus had
discovered his way to the Indies. That was what he was looking for.
You are right, Babi. I got slightly off course there. Of course, the EAST Indies. Well, maybe not so off course. I just looked it up East Indies was a term used to pretty much cover the whole of South and South East Asia, covering India, Pakistan, etc. and all the islands from Ceylon out to the Phillipines, Singapore and the western half of New Guinea.
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Pardon me, but I have had to laugh at some of the posts revarding our Texas image by people from other states and other countries. How can anyone say Texas is always threatening to leave the Union. The last time that happened was April, 1861 and there was a lot of opposition even them. Regarding The names of Lamar, and Houston and other Texas Heroes, I doubt that one in three men on the street if asked had ever heard of them. True most Texas school children including old alumni would know some of them. Through the 1930's we tended to name schools after them. I am sure there are a lot more than one Lamar High Schools scattered over the state. More recently some new school do carry their name, but most are now named after later War heroes, Literary personalities Astronauts, etc.
Constitutionally we are one of 50 states. I suppose there is one rather unique Constitutional difference. That would be the provisions in several 1840's Congressional Bill giving Texas the right to split itself into 5 separate States. Ugh that would get National attention quick for how it might upset the balance of power in the Senate. But that to is unlikely to happen.
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Oh, HAROLD, you got a laugh, good! Texas has always been a subject to tell tall tales about, true or false! Glad you thought to set the record straight. And isn't it wonderful that each of us defend our states, our cities. I mean my city, Columbus, is called "that cowtown" and we haven't had cows around for several generations.
But back to our story. BABI, yes, a lot of information! The Comanches needed more women - captives - not only to work, but to produce children as miscarriages were common due to horseback riding and at times they could collect ransom from those they captured.
We've talked about Rachel Plummer's narrative that our author quotes and the only reference I can find online to James Parker's Narrrative, referenced in the Bibliography, is the following: (I found it rather amazing that there is this much, the Internet is a constant wonder to me)
" In 1844 James published Narrative of the Perilous Adventures, Miraculous Escapes and Sufferings of Rev. James W. Parker (Morning Courier Office, Louisville, Kentucky, 1844), later republished (missing several pages) in 1926 by family members in Anderson County and entitled Rachel Plummer's Narrative. Both publications include an appended second edition of the Narrative plus a geographical description of Texas for settlers and include a description of James's efforts to return his family from captivity."
And this: http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fpa23
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I opened my Columbus Dispatch paper this morning and look what I saw - bison coming to our metro parks:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2011/02/04/Bison_arrive_at_Metro_Parks.html?sid=101
I hope you can see that. Shaggy, big beasts! Our book tells us that they were dangerous animals to hunt; a challenge to the Indians, they could run as fast an an ordinary horse for two miles.
I was just as surprised in watching the news about Egypt to see some camels being used to disperse the crowds in the square where the protestors are. Did you see the camels? Amazing beasts also!
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BABI, I understand there is a lot of information in the book, at times overwhelming, how could we better digest it
Maybe take just two chapters at a time?
So many raids, battles, heros, so dramatic! Our author writes well, it sometimes seems as though I'm watching a motion picture in my mind as I read along.
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What I have seen about treaties is that they are just so much words and paper,made in the expediency of the situation and no onereally expects them to be kept. We have broken almost all the treaties that we havemade with the indians with flimsy excuses just as they have broken their treaties with us. People without honor but lots of greed. There is not much about Cynthia Parker and her feelings. Was she ever able to be interviewed to get her version of her life. She may not have been married according to the Christian community but was certainly considered married in the Indian tribe. I would have like more information about her but there is so little out there or has it just been bypassed because of the unhappy way she was treated after being recovered.Why didnt they just leave her with her Indian family since it was obvious that she wasnt able to be reintroduced back into the white culture. Of course the Indians were considered a sub human group and as such could be killed with impunity. The book is interesting but I dont see a lot of depth in it.
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I changed the font size on my Nook reader now so I have forgotten where the heck this is in our book but wasn't there "gold in them thar hills?"
Wouldn't that have been enough reason to "go west, young man?"
It amazes me how tribal we continue to be in today's world: Many associate with only their our "own" ethnic groups/ race; class divisions still remain- wealthy/poor; i.e. indians vs. the white man; American vs. Chinese etc. The problem with that is different kindred beings in society believe in "an eye for an eye." It is much like our story, you fence in our land and kill our animals and we will hunt you down, ravage your farms and steal your young. In today's society it is the drug population that is doing just that- from one gang to another.
Lord, we haven't learned much have we?
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There's a lot of interesting information about Sam Houston in the link provided by Ella in post #182. Houston spent several years with a Cherokee band, was adopted and married a Cherokee. That would explain his endeavours on behalf of all Indians. Treaty-making must have been a serious attempt to reach some kind of agreement with the indigenous people. Enforcement would have been a problem. Aren't some of these treaties now showing up in the courts, as Native Americans seek some kind of justice?
The buffalo is making a comeback. Can the Comanches be far behind? Keep the doors locked, Ella.
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Yesterday there were a couple of comments regarding Anglo Fencing as a factor in changing the character of Comanche lifestyle. I don't think so. In fact I doubt a Comanche ever saw a barbed wire fence until the 1880's by which time they were already on the reservation. The fencing of the Western range had to await the invention and production of cheap barbed wire. This was made possible by a series of U.S. patents issued during the Mid 1870. It was several years after that before Texas ranchers began serious fencing of their pasture.s. I suspect that by 1900 privatization of land and increasing use of barbed wire fences had effectively cut off public access with large herds of Cattle http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/barbwire.htm
The 1870's and 1880's were the years of the Texas trail drives. These involved driving thousand head herds from South Texas up the Chisholm Trail ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisholm_Trail ). I Know during these years there were large thousand head herds of longhorn cattle being driven from South Texas up to the rail head in Nebraska. The Trail was the 19th century version of I-35 extended from South Texas to the rail head cities in Nebraska. A trail crew was generally composed of 12 to15 armed cowboy types. There are stories of conflict with Comanche war parties that were usually resolved with gifts of several cattle to the Comanche. Considering the warlike character of the Comanche I am surprised The Comanche were satisfied with several head when after a fight they might have the whole heard. I wonder why Gwynee did not mention this in the book.
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A map of the Chisholm Trail:
http://www.thechisholmtrail.com/map2.htm
The center part of the Oklahoma section is about 20 miles west of where I live. There are lots of historical markers - and an Annual Trail Ride through some parts of it.
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Super map, Callie. I didn't realize the Trail had all those branches.
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Now, I am surprised to know that there is a school, in Texas, which calls its sports teams "Redskins". I believe it was the 1970s when there was an uprising, at least in California about teams using that term. Stanford University in Northern California was called home of the "Redskins", up until that time. Now it is called "The Cardinal".
At the same time, American Indians took over Alcatraz, in the San Francisco Bay. It was occupied for a lengrthy period of time, and got a lot of publicity. In addition, study programs began at many state colleges, and Universities.
Sheila
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
|
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 8-14 ~ Chapters 8-13
1. Discuss Cynthia Ann’s life among the Comanche. Does it appear that she was worse-treated than other Comanche women? Contrast Cynthia Ann’s treatment with the treatment with other Anglo Women held by the Comanche: Matilda Lockhart, Banca Banc Babbs, & Malinda Ann Caudell.
2. What did our book tell of the early life of Quanah and his younger brother, Peanuts?
3. Discuss some of the early instances in which Anglo or Mexican men visited Cynthia’s Ann’s Comanche Village. What attempt if any did they make that might have obtained her release?
4. Who were Charles Goodnight, John Coffee Hays, and Rip Ford? What role did they play in the long war with the Comanche and the effort to find Cynthia Ann and obtain her release?
5. Who was James W. Parker? What are some of his efforts to rescue his niece Cynthia Ann Parker. What major 1950’s movie did his efforts inspire?
6. Describe the circumstances of Cynthia Ann’s “rescue.” What was her mental state and what effort was made to help her reprogram for living in 19th century Texas? What was the attitude of her Parker family, having Cynthia Ann back among them.
7. What effect did the Civil War have on the Texas Frontier particularly the continuing Texas war with the Comanche?
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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Frybabe, I didn't either - until I became a Volunteer at The Oklahoma History Center Museum and began going to some classes.
I knew about the main one through central Oklahoma but was very surprised to learn about the branch that went up and through the eastern part.
Untile I began reading "Empire...", I didn't know there were ever Cherokees in East Texas.
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I finally started Googling images of some of the land features talked about in the book. I am finding very interesting reading regarding the Balcones Escarpment which marks the end of the Coastal Plain. I thought the pictures would be more dramatic then they are (at least the ones I found so far), but the geology is fastinating to me. The Escarpment is a fault zone and is easy to spot on satellite pictures. It is a limestone/karst formation which is very permeable. The Edwards Aquifer runs for about 150 miles along the formation and is between 5 and 40 miles wide. As far a I can tell, they have not been using any artificial recharge to replenish the water in the aquifer (so far), but they must carefully monitor the stream flow, etc. that feeds the aquifer and adjust Austin's water usage accordingly.
Callie, I was also surprised to see that the author said the WHOLE of Oklahoma was at one time specifically designated by the US Gov. as Indian Territory at one time.
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Except for an area in the middle, which remained with the government when the rest of it was "assigned" to various Indian tribes, it was.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Okterritory.png
The Unassigned Lands were opened for white settlement in the Land Run of 1889.
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Interesting how they put the unassigned land right smack in the middle so that the whites would have to travel through Indian territories to get there. I wonder what was the rationale for dividing it up the way they did. They put the Apache in with the Kiowa and Comanchi? I thought they were natural enemies.
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Regarding the Edwards aquifer San Antonio a city of over 1.5 million gets most of its public water supply from well drilled into this formation. Austin is above this formation and historically has obtained its city water from the Colorado River. This river is one of the largest in Texas. I don’t think Austin gets much if any water from the Edwards.
The Edwards recharge zone is just North and West of San Antonio. In North San Antonio it runs from just a few hundred feet deep in the northern part of San Antonio to over 1,000 feet in the South. There is a fault line across the southern part of the county running from the southwest in a north east direction. South of this fault line the Edward suddenly drops something like another 1,000 feet. North of this fault line the water is clean, cool, and sweet; south of this line the water is hot (120 degrees) and tastes terrible from its high mineral and even hydro carbon content. It runs continually deeper as it continues south east toward the coast. In this area it sometime produce oil and gas in commercial quantities. The existence of this aquifer has made possible the growth of a little 18th Century Spanish town into a large 21st century American city.
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Harold-Callie-regarding the Chisholm Trail-right at the border in Brownsville, looking across the Rio to Mexico is a lovely little parkette noting the 'beginning of the Chisholm trail', a very pretty little place
I saw a book at the Stillman museum in downtown Brownsville, all about women who drove the trail, and I tried to look for it in the library, but unfortunately the history of texas/mexico section of the library are all books that can't be taken out of the library, ...really unfortunate as there are a number of books I would love to read, but don't really want to spend a few days totally at the library to do so
Deb
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Don't worry about it, ELLA. The next section is a chapter shorter, so
perhaps that will help. The schedule divisions are perfectly logical to fit
into February.
An eyebrow went up when I saw that the origin of the word Comanche may have been what the Ute called them, “Koh-mat”, meaning “anyone who is against me all the time”. It does make the
Comanches sound like an extremely contrary people. :-X
I was unaware that the Texas Rangers were originally Indian fighters, and only later became law men. They were successful as Indian fighters precisely because they learned how to fight from the
Comanches themselves. I well remember when my young grandson
visited the Rangers headquarters and was presented with a 'Texas Ranger' hat. He was so proud and pleased.
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The Parker family, Cynthia and others, plus Quanah, will be discussed in more detail in our next assignment starting Tuesday, the 8th. Incidentally, there is still a team called the WASHINGTON REDSKINS, a professional team, correct? As SHEILA stated there was an uprising by the Indians about such names and I do remember Alcatraz being taken. OH, MY, MY, how long ago it seems.
All you football fans are going to be in front of the TV today to watch two teams that were named after local industries, a good thing, right? A steeltown and a meatpacking town. How American is that? I may, I don't know yet!
I am still pondering over the Republic of Texas; those eight years when it had a government. How did they vote? 40,000 people scattered over the ranges of Texas somehow elected Sam Houston as president; what other positions were in that government and did they have a constitution. I must go look it all up.
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Taking time out from all the battles, I am intrigued by this young republic. I never knew this about Texas. Here is more information and you will see a replica of their first capital, Washington-on-the-Brazos. Many of their decisions were based on United States history, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_of_1836
Forty-one delegates arrived in Washington-on-the-Brazos on February 28. The convention was convened on March 1 with Richard Ellis as president.
Many of the delegates to the 1836 convention were young men who had only recently arrived in Texas, although many of them had participated in one of the battles in 1835. Most of the delegates were members of the War Party and were adamant that Texas must declare its independence from Mexico
I love to learn history.
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Many Texans favored immediate annexation by the United States. However, the proposals went nowhere, because of the risk of continued war with Mexico and Texas' shaky financial status. Even after San Jacinto, Mexico refused to recognize Texas's independence and continued to raid the Texas border. The new government had neither money nor credit, and no governmental structures were in place. Rebuffed by the United States, Texans went about the business of slowly forming a stable government and nation. Despite many difficulties and continued fighting both with Mexico and with Indian tribes, the Texas frontier continued to attract thousands of settlers each year.
http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/republic/index.html
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BUFFALO HUMP (Chapter 7) could hate. He's even mentioned in the history of Texas:
"The Comanches were the main Native American opposition to the Texas Republic. In the late 1830s, Sam Houston negotiated a peace between Texas and the Comanches. Lamar replaced Houston as president in 1838, and reversed the Indian policies. He launched a genocidal war against the Comanches and invaded Comancheria itself. In retaliation, the Comanches attacked Texas in a series of raids. After peace talks in 1840 ended with the massacre of 34 Comanche leaders in San Antonio, the Comanches launched a major attack deep into Texas, known as the Great Raid of 1840. Under command of Potsanaquahip (Buffalo Hump), 500-700 Comanche cavalry warriors swept down the Guadalupe River valley, killing and plundering all the way to the shore of the Gulf of Mexico, where they sacked the towns of Victoria and Linnville. Houston became president again in 1841 and, with both Texans and Comanches exhausted by war, a new peace was established."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Texas#Statehood
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Thanks for the correction Harold. I mis-typed without double checking my reading. My brain was starting to go into sleep mode. I had an interest in groundwater issues years ago, and have recently become reacquainted with artificial aquifer recharge. In Pennsylvania, most of our aquifer system is recharged naturally like the Edwards. Edwards interests me because of its structure. I hadn't read far enough in to see the information on the dissolved mineral content from one area to the next, but it doesn't surprise me. The Equus Aquifer system is also interesting. The city of Wichita, Kansas and the EPA have a very interesting site about their artificial aquifer recharge and storage project.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programing.
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Is it really so, Harold? My newspaper reports that the new Cowboys Stadium has 'a vast, retractable roof that opens so - as they say in Texas - God can watch the Super Bowl. How disappointing for God. Because of the weather the roof will be closed. That's understandable, after hearing about the terrible winter weather you've been getting in this early part of February.
What a coincidence. Here I am reading about Colonel John Moore going after the Comanches in the ongoing conflict between Native and American. Why is an American military action always referred to as an expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?
However. This action took place in February, 1839. Just listen to this:
When they (Colonel Moore and his men) reached the encampment, the Comanches had already departed, leaving a trail that headed upriver. Before they could follow, a prairie storm came howling in from the north. The men hunkered down in a grove of post oak in the fierce, penetrating cold, and waited out the driving snow and sleet. For three days.page 79
Those amazing Comanches. With their dazzling horsemanship. We're given a fine picture of that In the third chapter. So much in that chapter that catches ones imagination.
And there was the simple, fundamental, spirtual power of the animal itself, which had transformed these poor foot Indians into dazzling cavalrymen. And the new technology turned tribes who had lagged behind their peers in culture and social organization into newly dominant forces.page 31
They were so skilfull with horses. I wonder, did they ever try to engage the buffalo as a mount. It probably would have meant changing their battle tactics somewhat, but it seems to me that a buffalo could have made a great warhorse.
See y'all at the game. I watched TRUE GRIT last night. With John Wayne. How picturesque. Where was it filmed?
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I'm out of town - in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas north of Brownsville - on a borrowed computer. There was no such thing as a dance team when I was in HS in the early 1950s - and probably not when our girls were in HS in Tennessee in the 1970s. I didn't know there was a possible change in the name to the Rangers. I'll be back home on Tuesday.
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Jonathan, the original True Grit was filmed in southern Colorado in the Fall, when the aspen trees are at their peak color. However, the story takes place in eastern Oklahoma which is heavily timbered with hardwoods that have spectacular red, yellow and orange colors in the Fall.
Eastern Oklahoma also has "mountains" - but they are nothing like the peaks in the Rockies.
As an Oklahoman who grew up in the area where the True Grit story takes place, I was NOT happy with the setting of that movie!!!! >:(
(Also - one of the towns to which they go is NOT pronounced "Pot - oh" (as in a saucepan); it's Poe - toe (French)!)
I cannot imagine a buffalo "agreeing" to be a warhorse!! :D
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Why is an American military action always referred to as an
expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?
Good question, JONATHAN.
Good link on Texas history, ELLA. If you look at the box to the right,
you can see where the phrase "Six flags over Texas" came from.
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Jonathan, regarding your message #212. I think you are referring to the February 1839 action under Col John Moore north of Austin on the Colorado River. This was a typical action in which the Militia attacked the Comanche village on foot after dismounting, leaving their horses virtually unguarded. The Comanche promptly stampeded the horse herd while the Militia attacked an empty village. After the Comanche staged a vicious counterattack on the exposed Texans in the village, Moore's force had a long walk home carrying their wounded about 100 miles home.
This was the typical strategy pattern of the time The next year the Comanche penetrated all the way to the coast. That time largely because of the large amount of their loot and stolen horses the Texans were able to mount a somewhat successful counter attack that deprived the Comanche at least of a portion of their loot.
Also Jonathan regarding the Cowboy’s stadiums, I remember back in the late 1980’s on a Sunday afternoon flying into Dallas on a Southwest Airlines flight to Love Field. At that time, the then new stadium had a permanent hole in the roof directly over the playing field. The spectator seats were covered by the roof. Coming in as the plane banked for its landing approach I looked down, and there it was- Cowboy stadium with the holy Trinity clearly visible on the roof their feet dangling in the air below watching their team beat Washington.
The new stadium has a closeable roof. It seats something like 102,000. The site of the old stadium was cleared last summer with a public display of the explosion that reduced it to a pile of rubble in seconds.
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Babi asks good questions in her message 215:, Why is an American military action always referred to as an expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?
My only answer is that from the view point of the 19th century Texans the Comanche purpose was thievery and murderous devilry, hence the use of the word raid. The purpose of the settlers was to punish the perpetrators of an atrocious act A punitive Expedition to punish for a grievous wrong. Hence they used the word expedition.
Are we wrong in continuing to use this verbiage today?
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Yes when they went into settlelments of the inocent indians and killed and burned without conscience. We seem to have aproblem separating our friends from our enemies in this country even in these times. We have a very poor record with the supporting of abusive governments and need to wake up and see the light. The mexican government used the southern settlers to pave the way for them and to help get rid of the troublemaking indians and the american government footed the bill for the army. So the Mexicans got a free ride but it didnt work out as well for them as they had planned. I guess that I am a proponant of th Monroe Doctrine. Keep out of my affairs and I will keep out of yours,all this globalization has done nothing less than weakening our country.
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all this globalization has done nothing less than weakening our country.
I agree, Jean.
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Babi asks good questions in her message 215:, Why is an American military action always referred to as an expedition, and a Comanche action referred to as a raid?
My tongue-in-cheek answer is, it depends on who's writing the history books.
Nancy
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At today’s end we will complete the first week’s discussions relating to Chapters 1 througe7. Tomorrow we will begin the 2nd week relative to chapters 8 through 13. at which point the management will replace the current heading question with the following seven new questions relative to Chapters 8 through 13. Please consider them beginning tomorrow in formulation your discussion posts.
Discuss Cynthia Ann’s life among the Comanche. Does it appear that she was worst treated than other Comanche women? Contrasts Cynthia Ann’s treatment with the treatment of other Anglo Women held by the Comanche, Matilda Lockhart, Banca Banc Babbs, & Malinda Ann Caudell.
What did our book tell of the early life of Quanah and his younger brother Peanuts?
Discuss some of the early instances in which Anglo or Mexican men visited Cynthia’s Ann’s Comanche Village. What attempt if any did they make that might have obtained her release?
Who were Charles Goodnight, John Coffee Hays, and Rip Ford? What role did they play in the long war with the Comanche and effort to find Cynthia Ann and obtain her release?
Who was James W. Parker? What are some of his efforts to rescue his niece Cynthia Ann Parker. What major 1950’s movie did his efforts inspire?
Describe the circumstances of Cynthia Ann’s “rescue.” What was her mental state and what effort was made to help her reprogram for living in 19th century Texas? What was the attitude of her Parker family a having Cynthia Ann back among them.
What effect did the Civil War have on the Texas Frontier particularly the continuing Texas war with the Comanche?
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HAROLD, we will get those questions in the heading ASAP for consideration in tomorrow's assignment.
NANCY was very perspicacious when she commented on the author of history books. Is this a history book? I don't think so, do any of you? Did Gwynne mean for it to be read as history - as history of the Comanche tribe?
I don't know, it reads more like fiction and, undoubtedly, he meant for it to be entertaining. Is this how history should be written?
We've been told that our children are not getting taught history, so, perhaps, Gwynne knows how to write it?
What do you think?
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A few comments before we leave this first week's chapters. Buffalo Hump! What a name - what a battle he led - Wow! What a movie the Battle of Plum Creek would make.
It seemed they were winning until they met up with a group of fearless young men who had come west looking for trouble, looking to fight Indians.
This battle "signified the beginning of the shift in fighting style that would find its true form in the next few years in the Texas Rangers."
Perhaps it's just I'm not reading carefully, but it seems to me that it took a long time for the white man to learn how to fight Comanches; the battles went on and on up to 1870.
We know the Indians loved their horses, they bred them well, they rode them fast, they stole them from their enemies. Gwynne tells us this over and over, so why did not the white man just steal into their camps and stampede their horses. So kill their horses, get rid of them, herd them over the cliffs. It seems it would have ended it all more quickly.
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"I looked down, and there it was."
Harold, I'm cracking up over what you saw. The famous Trio, perched on the edge of the stadium roof, watching the game. That's better than the original story. It was an entertaining game last night. Wasn't that a nice touch for the winning quarterback to say To God be all the glory. Said it twice, in fact. He knew he was being watched. Did you notice how often he raised his eyes to the roof?
Thanks, CallieinOK, for the info about filming True Grit. With those high mountains, I knew it couldn't be Texas, or Oklahoma, and yet they kept talking about being in Indian Territory, which was mostly OK, wasn't it? The plot concerns a killer being brought to justice. I got the impression that the federal government had exclusive jurisdiction in the Territory, Was that so? Our book mentions Indian Agents and Indian Commissioners which suggests there was considerable government policy and activity in Indian affairs. Were the Comanches in our story beyond the reach of that long arm of the law?
The killer was also wanted in Texas. What gave me a laugh was the info that the reward for his apprehension was much greater in Texas than it was in OK. We all know there's a lot of money down there. Even then? Is it any wonder that the Comanches were kidnapping women and children for the ransom money? Like horse thievery wasn't enough?
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Ella: If this book isn't history, what is it? For me it is a well researched,well documeted chapter of both the Comanche and Texas history.
If it reads like a novel, perhaps iit is because it is written in an interesting manner.
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Jonathan, comparing the area in which the True Grit story took place (far eastern/southeastern OK) and that of the book in this discussion (basically west of today's I-35 in both OK and TX) is like comparing apples and oranges. Indians and Lawmen in both areas - but very different situations.
Harold, I agree that the book is a well researched history of the Comanches, Texas, part of Oklahoma - and the era.
Gwynne's background is in journalism and I think he did a good job writing more than "just the facts, ma'am" in that he personalized the stories to some extent. However, he did not fictionalize by stating what this one or that one "thought" or "said" - unless he directly quoted a reference.
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Okay, it is officially the 8th here. I have a question. On p104 Gwynne writes about Bianca Banc, "Her written chronicle remains the only first-person narrative of a girl's captive time with a southern plains tribe." I thought Rachel Plummer's narrative was a first-person account. Did I read wrong?
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HAROLD, that was Jonathan's question. I quoted it because I also
thought it was a good question, too.
I think it was fairly plain that Cynthia Ann Parker was not 'worse-
treated'. On the contrary, she seems to have been adopted into a
tribe, treated no differently than the Comanche women, and made a
home and family there.
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Isn't it wonderful to have this group to talk with - about the book, of course, but also about personal
experience and knowledge of the west - today. I'm finding myself giving more thought to the Indians (is it PC to use "Indians" - or better to use "Native Americans"? I read that when Mexicans refer to the "indios" it is a deragatory
term.) I am really interested to hear how the Native Americans have assimilated into today's society - in the west. Do they attend public schools - etc?
MaryZ, according to Mirabeau Lamar High School's web site, they considered changing the name of the football team to "Rangers" but decided to continue with "Redskins."
Ella mentioned the "Washington Redskins" the other day. Yesterday I opened the sports page of the Washington Post to Courtland Milloy's column - about the "Redskins" issue. I'll paste here a little of the article...
"Hurl that offensive "Redskins" name out of bounds the way a quarterback would to keep from being
sacked.
Bench the faux Indian mascot, while you're at it.
That's how you attack the use of disparaging images.
In an interview on WJFK (106.7 FM) the other day with Washington Post columnist and radio host Mike Wise, Dan Snyder, owner of the Redskins, said, "The name [Redskins] is not meant to be offensive
whatsoever."
Suzan Harjo, a Muscogee and Cheyenne Indian who lives in the District, has been hoping for years that you'd come to see it that way, too, Dan. Harjo was the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit against the team that was filed in 1992. A panel of three trademark judges ruled unanimously in her favor and canceled the trademark licenses, but Snyder won on appeal(!?)
"We were happy when Snyder became the team owner in part because he was young and Jewish," Harjo told me recently. "We thought he would get the connection between the historic oppression of Jews and Native Americans and understand the role that stereotypes and caricatures played in it. We were stunned to learn that he had zero understanding."
I remember asking Floyd "Red Crow" Westerman, the late Sioux poet and human rights activist, back in 2003 why he thought Washington's football team had become unimaginably lousy since you took over.
He replied, "There is a karma that comes around when people are disrespectful and arrogant, and it develops discontent within the ranks."
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"In 1520 Indians numbered 11 million after Cortes arrived - numbers plummeted toONE million in 1650." Gwynne
Babi, when you questioned these numbers, I went back to check Gwynne's footnote...was surprised to see
there wasn't one. I wonder too where that number came from!
Earlier I was wondering the same thing about the precise land measurements...acreage. I guess it's
because I'm from the East...here, if you own one acre of land, you are rich! Can you imagine each of the Parker families being granted 4000 acres? I can't.
It wasn't until this week's chapters that question is answered - those surveyors were plentiful, weren't they? The Indians feared them...they were capable of taking their land with their magical
instruments.
This week's question about the treatment of those kidnapped "little girls" - none of them complained of their treatment. Rather they felt special and loved - though they returned home when ransomed. They were valuable to the Comanches - for the ransom money.
Cynthia DID NOT WANT TO LEAVE HER husband. It seems the other little girls were returned within a year or two of their capture. We aren't told why Cynthia was kept for so much longer than that. I had been picturing her as a little blond girl for some reason. Her photograph in the midsection of this book dispelled that notion. Did you see it?
This is a photograph, not a drawing. I was really surprised at her appearance...
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Regarding Cynthia Ann's Ransom Price.: One reason for Cynthia Ann's long tenure with the Comanche I think was due to the fact that after her abduction in 1836 it was near 10 years before a European actually saw her. This was probably because during these years she was with one of the most isolate Comanche groups. During this time her family had presumed she was dead. It was in 1846 after the annexation when an Indian Agent Leonard H, Williams visited a Comanche group on the Washita river in Oklahoma where he met a blued white woman who turned out to be Cynthia Ann, Williams tried to negotiate a ransom offering goods in princely proportions . Though ransom for release of Comanche captives was common, Williams offer was met with stern refusal. Cynthia Ann's case was somehow different and the offer was dropped. It was five years before another Anglo again saw Cynthia Ann .
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Joan, I hope someone from Texas will address your question about Native American assimilation.
Here's a link to a Wikipedia article about Indian Boarding Schools
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_boarding_schools
and a quote from a Wikipedia article about Oklahoma schools in the 21st century:
Oklahoma had 631,337 students enrolled in 1,849 public primary, secondary, and vocational schools in 540 school districts as of 2006.[115] Oklahoma has the highest enrollment of Native American students in the nation with 120,122 students in the 2005-06 school year.
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I lived on the Washington State Penninsula forseveral years. The reservaton was at the end of the penninsula and I saw very little integration, they were a separate entity, had their own reservation with sub standard housing supplied by the government. Alcohoism and drugs are rampant. Rarely did anyone make it out to go to the Community College in Port Angeles and their rate of failurer was almost 100%. So much for assimilation. They wereandstill are regarded as second class citizens. AS far as Cynthia Parker was concerned she was certainly cared for and taught the Indian ways, just as she would have been taught the settlers ways. Would her life been any easier as a pioneer famers wife, I think not and she seemed to have a lot more freedom than she would have had in the settlers community. There was probably some predjudices among the Indian women and repercussions on a small scale as she made a good union with Nacona as he took no other wives. Jealousy among women can be a vicious thing but he was probably powerful enout to keep it within reasonable limits.{Just speculation}. Now we have agroup of 007's who go into Texas with the freedom to kill withour answering to anyone with no gain to themselves. Never happen, there had to be some rewards for them and some financing to get them started on their rampage. Who encouraged them?
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Comments regarding estimates of Indian population and Integration of Indians into American society.
Regarding Population Estimates: I think we should always be suspicious of estimates of Indian populations in Colonial times. First and foremost we must remember that there were no censuses so they are all some ones guess or at best estimate based of very limited factual knowledge. Often these were no more than guess since some times the educated guess of someone who lived with a particular tribe gave such a person the ability to make reasonably accurate estimates of a local population. Regarding larger areas like a total for North America a decent estimate is harder to come by and probably not of much value. I remember just 20 years ago hearing guesses of 1 or 2 million for all the continent North of the Rio Grange. I think Current guesses are significantly higher. Also the population in Mexico and Central America in1 500 appears to have been much denser than in the north.
Regarding Integration of Indians into American Society: There is a large group of ordinary American who claim Indian ancestors, living and working in our present society. They often have no present tribal or reservation affiliation. Their life is well integrated into our present social structure, yet just as Americans of other ethnic group tend to remember their root traditions and National holidays, so do these Indians tend to remember theirs.
Reservation Indians are another matter since the Reservation created by Federal law recognizes a significant degree of Tribal Sovereignty. I don’t want to get into details of this complex legal structure since I am not insufficiently informed to do so. It is my observation from my past visitations to Taos and several reservations in the area that the Indians often live in small modern houses on the reservation. They hold jobs on the reservation or off the reservation where they work for private firms and government agencies just like other Americans..
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Just from an outsiders point of view my son who spent a year in North America felt that Native Americans ( ones with more Indian blood than European blood ) were second class citizens. We still have a divide here. However I do think we are making strides because the Maori culture is recognised and the culture is part of mainstream NZ. We are a country with two official languages NZ and Maori. Navel gazing is painful, divisive at times but I think in the end will be worth it. We are a nation of navel gazers and self critics and because we are small nothing much can be hidden. I hope in another three generations we will have completely merged. Reclaiming a culture can have huge benefits. Restoration of pride is the biggest gain and that leads to higher ambitions.
I am sure the Indian population was truly decimated as our native population was here when the white man came. Diseases never encountered by the Natives ( like measles for instance) would have killed many as they had absolutely no immunity to these new diseases.
As I read this book it does remind me so far of the books I read as a child about our history. A glorification of colonialism. I see history in a hugely different light as I have grown older.
I agree with the other poster. Cynthia Parker would have had much more freedom as a Comanche tribal member than she would have had in White society.
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But such drama, HAROLD, for a history. Fascinating to read, but like no history book I've ever read.
A whole chapter on Cynthia Parker, all it seems from a privately printed book or pamphlet by a James DeShields, 1886. (see NOTES)
Yes, JOANP, Cynthia looks very sad in her photograph, maybe I missed the place in the book that described how this photo came to be???s She was with her Indian family throughout her life wasn't she?
As for how the ranks of the native Indians came to be so decimated, the book on pg. 110 tells of the horrible diseases that ravaged the "empire under the bright summer moon."
The band that Cynthia was with, particularly, was susceptible to the diseases of the white man. And then the 49ers brought cholera with them which had broken out in Europe, crossed the ocean and spread rapidly.
For a year or two after my husband died I was at a retirement center before I bought my condo and there was a fellow there, a scientist, who had worked years in Argentina on a vaccination for malaria and was very disappointed they had not been successful. We have come far, but will never conquer it all.
CAROLYN, I don't live anywhere around the reservations so I cannot speak about the assimilation of the Indians into our society, but from what I read from time to time our native people are still second class citizens. How this can be altered I have no idea.
THANKS AGAIN, EVERYONE, FOR YOUR INTEREST AND YOUR POSTS!
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Since I haven't figured out yet how to post a pix (aren't you all very,very lucky), I'll just give you a link to a pix of the 1838 Colt .36. Scroll down a bit to see it. http://www.rfostermuseum.com/artifact_archive.asp
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That Texas Paterson is a mean-looking gun. Thanks for the pic, Frybabe. Wouldn't you like to figure out how that works?
Harold posts: It is a well researched, well documented chapter of both the Comanche and Texas history.
Thanks for the reassurance, Harold. I feel I'm getting an authentic picture of the clash between Indian and White in that area in those forty or so years. The author has put a lot of drama into his historical narrative, for which he supplies a suitable amount of researched accounts. He admits it wasn't alway easy to find the truth, even exclaiming at one point: Such are the legends of the West.
That had to do with the various accounts of the Parker side of the story. I get the feeling that the author was uncertain of the role played by various members of the Parker clan. What a strange character that James Parker, Cynthia Ann's uncle. A nasty description on page 119, including the curious statement: Though an odor of impropriety, untruth, and general malfeasance haunts his life, he was never convicted of anything.
I know it may seem wild to suggest this, but, perhaps, life wasn't that easy in the fort. Perhaps Lucy hoped that life for her daughter might be easier with the Comanches. She was, as we read, weeping, but she did place her terrified daughter on the rear flank of a Comanche mustang. (p110) I have to think that a mother would fight with her life to keep her child out of the hands of a savage, and I have to wonder about Cynthia Ann's reluctance to return to her family.
I use the word savage advisedly. There were occasions when it must have been difficult to distinguish between the Noble Savage of the New World, and the Civilized Savage from across the sea.
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JOANP, I might be willing to let an long-established 'Redskin'
pass, but a 'faux Indian mascot' is definitely offensive.
Actually, I can easily imagine a 4000 acre land grant. The huge
King Ranch began with a Mexican land grant of 15,500 acres. Texas
was not only huge, it was mostly empty.
Hasn't it often been said, ELLA, that truth is stranger than
fiction? History should be fascinating. A dry recitation of names
and dates doesn't begin to touch the reality, and unfortunately
history is too often taught that way.
James Parker was a complex character, wasn’t he? Gwynne says he was mainly known as the man who searched for the Parker captives. I imagine he was driven to, given his carelessness had been responsible for their capture and the death of other family members. He also seems to have been a considerable scoundrel. Hero? Villain? Both?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb. 8 - 14 Chapters 8 - 13
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 8-14 ~ Chapters 8-13
1. Discuss Cynthia Ann’s life among the Comanche. Does it appear that she was worse-treated than other Comanche women? Contrast Cynthia Ann’s treatment with the treatment with other Anglo Women held by the Comanche: Matilda Lockhart, Banca Banc Babbs, & Malinda Ann Caudell.
2. What did our book tell of the early life of Quanah and his younger brother, Peanuts?
3. Discuss some of the early instances in which Anglo or Mexican men visited Cynthia’s Ann’s Comanche Village. What attempt if any did they make that might have obtained her release?
4. Who were Charles Goodnight, John Coffee Hays, and Rip Ford? What role did they play in the long war with the Comanche and the effort to find Cynthia Ann and obtain her release?
5. Who was James W. Parker? What are some of his efforts to rescue his niece Cynthia Ann Parker. What major 1950’s movie did his efforts inspire?
6. Describe the circumstances of Cynthia Ann’s “rescue.” What was her mental state and what effort was made to help her reprogram for living in 19th century Texas? What was the attitude of her Parker family, having Cynthia Ann back among them.
7. What effect did the Civil War have on the Texas Frontier particularly the continuing Texas war with the Comanche?
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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Ella Gibbons Post
What a mean looking gun that is, FRYBABE, but the items on display are very interesting. Love that black pottery!
True, BABI, none of us like dull facts and figures in history lessons, but I doubt Gwynne wrote this book to teach history. I never knew a history book to end up near the top of the NYT nonfiction reading list. Hurray for history books, if this be so!
Now I loved history, in school. It was never dull facts and figures. My teacher divided us up as North and South and we had to debate the Civil War and you were graded on it!!! You came prepared to be on either side. True of the Revolutionary War and WWI. Then I toook World History in college and again fell in love with the subject. Lucky me, I was never bored with it.
Yes, James Parker was a character; I think Gwynne used every adjective he had in his vocabulary to describe the man. Has anyone seen the movie THE SEARCHERS starring John Wayne in the role of James Parker and Natalie Wood as Cynthia?
If I were Cynthia Parker I would never have stayed with my white relatives either. "People were under no illusions about what had happened to them (captured women). They knew with great specificity what Plains Indians did to adult women, and thus repatriated captives were usually objects of pity. If they were married, their husbands often would not take them back." They would have been an embarrassment.
The story of Rachel Parker Plummer's return home from being captured is almost unbelievable! When she finally arrived home in very bad health she prayed for her son and her own peaceful death.
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Did you ever hear of the TREATY OF GUADALUPE HIDALGO?
Neither did I, but here is what it did for America - all I can say is this was pretty great stuff for the country.
Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (Tratado de Guadalupe Hidalgo in Spanish) is the peace treaty, largely dictated by the United States[1][2] to the interim government of a militarily occupied Mexico City, that ended the Mexican-American War (1846 – 48). With the defeat of its army and the fall of the capitol, Mexico in September 1847 the Mexican government surrendered to the United States and entered into negotiations to end the war.
Mexico ceded to the United States Upper California and New Mexico. This was known as the Mexican Cession and included present-day Arizona and New Mexico and parts of Utah, Nevada, and Colorado (see Article V of the treaty). Mexico relinquished all claims to Texas and recognized the Rio Grande as the southern boundary with the United States
the USA gained "an instant 66 percent increase in its total landmass; in terms of land gained, it was as though France had acquired Germany."
Facts and figures, yes, but those are tremendous facts and figures! As Gwynne said this treaty created the 'PHYSICAL NATION" as opposed to Appomattox Courthouse creating a unified nation.
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THE INTERNET IS A MARVELOUS THING! HERE IS THE WESTERN UNITED STATES IN 1848: ISN'T THAT INTERESTING?
OR AM I ALONE IN THINKING SO?
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/treaty_guadalupe_hidalgo_map.htm
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Ella-about the boundaries of nations, it seems in the past they have always been changing, Mexico went from one group of Indian to another to those who were in Mexico city when the Spanish arrived to take their turn...after reading a history of Mexico I was surprised to find how few centuries separated the Spanish from the American holding of Texas
I wish I could say I enjoyed history as a student, perhaps if I had gone to university, but high school history was very superficial and it has mainly been in the last 15 years reading on my own I have found books and become fascinated by what has gone on, what is going on, what is....and how confusing various perspectives are --even reading sadly in some countries ...a rewriting of history to enhance a countries image for their generation being schooled...
and how will that influence world history??
I wasn't able to renew the book last week but am keeping up with the discussions ....appreciate this author's work...what a book1
Deb
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At an Elderhostel at the Witte Museum in San Antonio, I learned a way to help visualize the vastness of TX.
All maps need to be the same scale - so use a United States Atlas.
Place the end of a string on El Paso TX. Stretch the string to Texarkana and cut the piece.
Repeat for Amarillo to Corpus Christi or Padre Island.
Place one end of the string on the town/city where you live. Stretch it in all directions and see where you'd end up if you traveled as far as it is across Texas.
High school history was "read the chapter and answer the questions at the end". I only took the required history courses in college and, although I found them interesting, my focus was on subjects required for an Elementary Education degree.
I didn't really become interested until I began doing genealogy and became curious about the areas in which my ancestors lived - which led to an interest in the culture, the westward migration, etc. etc. etc.
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Everybody can learn to enjoy history if they can be made to see the narrative of the past, as Gwynne does with EMPIRE. And, Ella, you've posted a splendid answer to your own good question about writing history. Thanks for the most interesting map link. I've bookmarked it. Lots of interesting stuff there. It's certainly a very graphic picture of the physical growth of the U.S. It provides a good picture of the Louisiana Purchase marching across the West in step formation, as the book describes it. What an acquisition of territory came along with that Treaty of Guadaloupe Hidalgo!
Thanks to President Polk. I remember from the TEAM OF RIVALS book that Lincoln, trying to make political hay, was critical of Polk for taking the U.S. into the Mexican War. A bit of irony there. Called on, himself, some twenty years later, to save a Union, which had grown so monstrously under his predecessor.
Now back to that Emerson Kent website. It declares itself as History in a nutshell. Yup. Even vast Texas in that nutshell!
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How happy Texas must have been to get that treaty signed with Mexico, if they honored it!
Before then the republic was having a terrible time - raids from Mexico and Comanche raids from the north and west! It was a wild wild west! What hardy families would dare go there, well - those mean, s.ob. types.
But I have a question and haven't found an answer yet, maybe I haven't searched long enough.
How did Mexico get or believe they had all those lands in the modern states of Arizona, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, California, Nevada??? Who gave them that land that the USA had to purchase for $15 million dollars. A lot of land here and there we are dredging up and giving away to that country, that settler, that Indian tribe.
My Gosh, it's all too much to take in unless you want to make a study of it. Maybe I can find a timeline of land taken, purchased, settled and by whom in the 19th century.
Now, JONATHAN, do you have it clear what the Commonwealth of England looks like today or what it looked like in the 19th century?
I believe it , DEB, boundaries are always changing, but my stodgy old state of Ohio just plods enough electing a president now and then!
CALLIE, I bet an easier way would be to google Texas on the Internet to find out how big iTexas is; besides I have no Atlas and no string. No string. I have no string I used to use string for all sorts of things, but I have no string anywhere in the house. Do you have string? What does one use it for?
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Ella Asked
>How did Mexico get or believe they had all those lands in the modern states of Arizona, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, California, Nevada??? Who gave them that land that the USA had to purchase for $15 million dollars. A lot of land here and there we are dredging up and giving away to that country, that settler, that Indian tribe.
Mexico inherited California, Arizona etc from Spain after its successful revolution ending in 1821. It was never claimed by the U.S. as a part of the Louisiana Purchase. The U.S. claim to Pacific Ocean frontage was the extreme N.W. the watershed of the Columbia River, the area now the states of Washington and Oregon.
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Cynthia Ann’s Uncle, James B. Parker was in interesting character in this plot. His career included politics, (often shady), business (likewise often on the shady side, and Family including several extended searches for his niece, Cynthia Ann and other Parker family missings. Though many of his political and business activities were on the shady side, as Jonthan said above, he never was convicted of anything. He made several long, difficult, but unsuccessful prairie searches for his lost Niece, Cynthia Ann.
In the 1950’ his search for his niece was the subject of a Book entitled. “The Searchers.” A movie followed later in the 1950’s staring John Wayne . http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049730/ . I don’t remember seeing the movie but I remember reading the book in an issue of the Reader’s Digest Condensed Books Club.
The character James B Parker did play an interesting role in this plot. There is a “Parker County in West Texas, and I had presumed it was named for James. Fortunately I check and find it was not. It was Named for an Isaac Parker who I don’t remember meeting in the book.
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I disliked history as a subject in school. But I love reading books that are based on history. This book is classified as non-fiction, not fiction, so I guess we can take it as fact.
Is anyone else having problems with placing all the events in chronological order? Each chapter seems to cover a part of the "history" and might jump back in time. The writings about the Parker family I can keep in order since the fort attack happened first, captives taken, some captives ransomed and returned, James Parker looks for remaining captives. But what I'm having trouble with is overlaying the history of the west's development and the Comanche rise and fall with the events of the Parker family. Maybe it's not important to the story.
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Callie, I'm not at home this week, but when I get back, I'm going to get out my Atlas and some string...(I've got string at home, Harold.)
Thank you so much for all the information on Indian assimilation in Oklahoma, Washington, Texas and elsewhere.. I have mixed feelings about this now after reading about assimilation through total immersion and the praciice of removing students entirely from their cultural surroundings. - I can see why this would be resented, asking these children to forsake their ethnic heritage. What is the solution? I don't want to believe there isn't one!
Nancy - I think it IS important...especially when you consider the success the Texas Rangers had fighting the Indians and then the huge step backwards when Washington decided it had had enough of the Rangers and sent those dragoons in to fight on foot - losing so many more lives. We need to put up some sort of a timeline. What do you think, Ella, Harold? Can we find one, make one?
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Jonathan-I share your mixed feelings on James Parker's story...though Rachel Plummer's tragic account really touched me. Her life never got any better when she teturned home.
I look at my little nine year old granddaughter. I have to emphasize little. She is Cynthia Parker's age when kidnapped. My Lindsay sees amazing things...like fairies hiding in flowers. She lives in a world of partial fantasy. I guess I'm trying to say, she lives in another world that we have forgotten. Life in the Parker fort couldn't have been easy. Cynthia had been uprooted from her home and brought to the middle of nowhere, where she must have had to work hard for a little girl. When the attack came, she saw unspeakable atrocities...from which her own father was unable to protect her..
She is taken away from this ghastly scene on the back of a horse, belonging to the most powerful man she ever saw= He took her to the Comanche camp where she was treated with care, with love. To protect herself she could have surpressed those terrible memories...even forgotten them. When you are nine, you have this ability. She would marry the man who treated her so well, who had been her protector for as long as she could remember..and bear his childen. He even let let her choose their names, contrary to Comanche custom.
I'm not really surprised that she did not want to return to the Parkers.
Jonathan, I didn't see "The Searchers" - How did Natalie Wood portray Cynthia? Was John Wayne really
James Parker? He must have been the hero then... I'll have to look for that on Netflix when we get home.
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I'm here reading and absorbing. I lost a couple of long posts(and my train of thought), most frustrating. As soon as my train of thought returns, I'll try again. Maybe post shorter ones from now on in case they go off into cyber-space. We have been travelling in territory that I am familiar with (literally). When I was in junior high, my parents took us on an historical vacation. We went to the Alamo, then to Goliad and finally to San Jacinto. I'm afraid most of the trip was wasted on me as at that age, I was more concerned with how I looked and if I would run into any cute guys on the trip. I have been back to the Alamo several times and to numerous forts around the state.
Will write more later.
Sally
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Ella, No string. I have no string I used to use string for all sorts of things, but I have no string anywhere in the house. Do you have string? What does one use it for? :D To tie around one's finger as a reminder? To play "Cat's Cradle"? To awe the grandchildren with something from "the old days"? ;D
Occasionally, I find a use for it - but, usually, it just takes up space in the "clutter" drawer.
It was just a suggestion. Actually, just a map of the USA would be better than a multi-page atlas.
Joan, "The Searchers" is available as a VCR and a DVD through my metro area library. I'm going to reserve it as soon as it looks as if we can go more than a week without a major snow storm!
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The Searchers really romanticized the quest and Natalie played a beautiful young woman dressed like an Indian and was returned to the bosom of her very loving family. Such a distortion of the truth about what happend to her in reality. her family rejected her and kept her hidden for so many years,no wonder she didnt have much to say. She had no input in the decision to keep her away from her Indian family but in later years they were going to send hr back but it was too late for both her and the Indian clan. Her tribe was not ethnically pure as they accepted all races especially the runaway Negroes and the Hispanics. They were a polyglot of races made from desperate people, perhaps that is what mede them so fierce and agressive.These people were also able to utilize the horses so it couldnt have been a pure commanche trait,just learning and experience.
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Thank you, ELLA, for both the map, and the website. I had forgotten that California was a part ot the treaty. Without that treaty, where I live would be part of Mexico!
Yes, I saw "The Searchers", many moons ago. However, my memory is so poor, that I do not remember any of it. Sigh
Today, I will read, and by tomorrow, won't remember much of what I read.
I have been told that an ancestor of mine, was an early governor of Texas. The man's name was Allred. I tried to find information about him, on Ella's website of history, but to no avail. I have done some genealogy, but haven't gotten to him, yet. HAROLD, do you know anything about him? I have been told that his picture hangs in the State House, in Austin. He was either the father, or grandfather, of my maternal, gg grandmother, Lillie Mae Allred.
Sheila
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History has always been an interest of mine. I grew up in Southern California. We studied Southern California history in several grades of 1-6. All I really remember is about the Spanish explorers and the building of the Missions. Then in between the 7th and 8th grades we moved to Northern California. I have gone to most of the Missions in the State. Many have been restored. Are there any Missions in Texas?
In reading our book, and our discussions, many family stories are being remembered. My paternal, great grandmother, Cora Estelle Ramsdell, had two brothers. Ralph Ramsdell was Indian Agent, near Kallispell, Montana in the late 1890s. She lived with him, at times. One of her stories was about baking bread in their kitchen, and turning around to find one, or more, Indians standing behind her, watching. Both Cora and Ralph told me many stories of those days but most have been forgotten. I wish that I had paid more attention! My Uncle Ralph was still alive when I was a young girl, and he often visited my grandmother. He was full of stories.
Their younger brother, Will Ramsdell, was a State Senator, for Montana. He helped to write the State Constitution. I do have a picture of him, and an invitation for him to attend an anniversary celebration of the Constitution. Sure do wish I knew more about that side of my family. But, reading our book is giving me a lot of senses of connection.
Sheila
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You know, the questions remind me so much of a history assignment or quiz from my school days. Ella and Harold, which one of you is the
history teacher?
I loved history, too, ELLA. You had a great teacher in the one who
had the class debating the Civil War issues. I did see "The Searchers"
and remember being horrified by the attitude toward women captives.
And I had never realized the importance of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, that Mexico had given up what now amounts to over half the United States, until I read it in Gwynne's book.
CALLIE, I can see why you found high school history boring. Your
teacher obviously wasn't very interested, either. Now, though, you
have a whole new interest to explore.
SHEILA, the Alamo was a Spanish mission. There were, in all, 26
missions established by Jesuits, Dominicans or Franciscans. There
were five in the San Antonio area, but I don't know if any other
than the Alamo still survive. You have a very interesting family history,
by the way. How lucky that some of them were so long-lived and you
got to hear some of their stories.
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Shelia: Indeed I remember James Allred as the First Texas Governior that I became aware of when he was still in office This was in the mid 1930's I was like 10 years old so I dont really remember any details concering his administration. The political events I do remember at that time was the 1936 Roosevelt win for his econd term and the Constitional crisis in the UK occasioned by the aAblication of King Edward VIII.
There is much on the Web.concerning your relative's Administration I like the Handbook of Texas that is the Web Page of the Texas Historical society since it is the home page of the Texas Historical Society that monitors the authenticity of its pages. I recommend this site for information on all things Texas.
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fal42
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Babi, I began "exploring" History in my late 20's (eons ago!!) when we moved to Leadville, Colorado. In my 30's, I inherited a box of family "stuff" that included correspondence, scrapbook pages, election certficates, etc. from the mid 1880's through the 1920's. That led to beginning family genealogy...which led to...and to... (you know how that goes!).
In my 40's, we moved to Oklahoma (actually, I returned after 20 years away) and I've been "exploring" ever since!
As a result of being snowed in for most of the last week, I made a chart comparing the experiences of the four captives mentioned in this week's Discussion Questions.
Banca and Melinda were ransomed within months of their captivity, Rachel and Matilda returned in two years.
Quoting from page 103: "(Cynthia Ann) stayed out (of white society) for twenty four years, enough time to forget almost everything she had once known..., to marry and have three children and live the full, complex, and highly specialized life of a Plains Indian." End quote
Matilda Lockhart told her story to the "authorities" when she was taken to San Antonio for ransom.
Banca and Rachel wrote memoirs "after the fact".
Melinda Caudle gave one interview, which was published.
Almost all the information about Cynthia Ann's experiences came from speculation.
It's been interesting to see the differences listed side by side.
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Thank you, soooo much, HAROLD, for the information about James Allred, and the Texas website. He could not have been my Ggrandfather, or GGGrandfather. I was born in 1934, when you say James Allred was governor. Perhaps he was the decendent of the Governor I am thinking of. I had the impression that my Allred was governor in the mid, to late 1840s, or 1850s. My grandmother was born in 1890, and her mother was the Allred.
I look forward to exploring the website you have shareed with me. I kno that my maternal grandmother was born in Bowie, Texas. Can you tell me where that is in Texas?
BABI, boy so I feel dumb! I had no idea that the Alamo was a Mission. In fact, I was under the definite opinion that California was the only State where Missions were built! No one teaching history in California ever mentioned any other States where there were Missions.
Sheila
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Shelia- Sorry, but that 1930's guy is the only Allred that became a Texas Governor. The link below is a complete list with links to Presidents of the Republic and Mexican and Spanish Governors going back to the early 18th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Governors_of_Texas
For information on Bowie Texas just Google the town name.
Regarding the San Antonio Missions. the 4 lower Missions, Conception. San Jose, San Juan , and San Francisco de la Espada are operated by the National Park Service as The San Antonio Missions National Historical Park. I am a Docent at Espada where I con be found in the visitor's center office most Sunday Afternoons.
The Alamo is preserved and operated by the State of Texas. It is by far the most visited with a daily count of several thousands a day. In contrast at Espada on a week end day we general have from 1 to 2 hundred. I'll see if I can set up an internet blog with mission pictures and Information.
san Jose.
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Well, this gets more and more exciting each day! Sheila, it is so interesting to explore your family history along with you - in this context! Harold is on your case now!
I have "collected" missions in CA too...but never visited any in Texas. It makes sense that there would be some, given the proximity to Mexico.
For some reason I was surprised to hear there were large Mexican armies at the border (border?) as late as 1842. With the Mexican armies to the south and the Comanches to the north and west, what would you say were the odds that the pioneer ranchers and farmers would succeed with their settlements? I wouldn't have put my money on them.
Last night I finally caught up - read Chapters 12 and 13 - and now see that Cynthia Ann Parker did in fact remember her early life - did remember the "raid" - the slaughter and torture of her family members. And yet, she was more upset at the loss of her husband than she was her own family. It was sad that she was never reunited with her sons before she died, wasn't it? I read what happened to Quanah in Chapter 13 - am waiting to hear what became of Peanuts.
After reading Callie's information about the boarding schools which were established to immerse the Indian children in American culture, I remember feeling some outrage at the cruelty of making them adapt to new names, religion, language. I felt sorry for them and yet isn't that exactly what happened to Cynthis when she was nine - complete immersion into the Comanche culture?
It worked, didn't it? I thought it was interesting that she had totally forgotten English, but she COULD speak Spanish!
How do you suppose that happened? The poor girl...she ending up NOT belonging anywhere. Do you think that's how the Indians on reservations feel...?
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There's also a town in Texas called Mission. This is a link to the google map for it - it's near where I spent last weekend, in what's called The Valley - the strip of towns along the lower Rio Grande Valley in Texas.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
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Joan, your use of the present tense when asking about Native Americans' feelings, living conditions, etc. bothers me. As an example of what the Comanche Nation is today, please browse through this link:
http://www.comanchenation.com/
You might Google other tribes for their Nation's website if you are interested.
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The comanchenation link in CallieinOK's post is a good answer to Joan's question. The same question, in different forms, has been running through my mind. After all, the subtitle of our book is
The Rise and Fall of the Comanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History
But what about today? Where are they? How are they doing? It's very interesting to be getting information from you who are close to the scene. And, really, all the events described in the book are still very close historically, aren't they?
From the link: The Comanches defended their land from all intruders.
Gwynne in one place tells his readers, and I'm paraphrasing: if the Comanches had recorded and left their version of events it might have been a different story. I think Gwynne is careful to give both sides of this unusual history.
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Don't feel dumb, SHEILA. Every State focuses on educating it's
students in the history of their own state. Most of what I learned
about California history was from historical novels. I still have vast
areas of ignorance about States that are not as popular with writers.
It is very easy for a child to misunderstand family history. Hearing
about your 'grandfather' who was governor, he would have seemed very old indeed as young as you were. I was surprised when you wrote that he was still living and told you stories. The family history is right;
it's just the datelines and relationships that were misunderstood.
Back to the Comanches, I find somewhat contradictory statements by Mr. Gwynne. At one point he says that the Comanches had no word for surrender; that all fights were a fight to the death. Yet he also writes that the Comanche would also break off a fight and flee if the loses became too heavy, or if the loss of a key leader persuaded them that their ‘medicine’ was bad.
Then, Ah, bureaucracy in action! I understand that the brand new Republic of Texas had very little in the way of funds, but the business of the newly formed Rangers was really ridiculous. The government made the group official, but provided no guns, no horses, no uniforms, provisions , or barracks. No officers were appointed; they arose through personal merit and common acceptance.. Oh, yes! The government did supply ammunition! I can only suppose they had plenty of that on hand.
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I noticed that someone thought it would help if they had a timeline for Texas so I searched and this is one of three that I found. I will look for a real timeline and see what is on Google.
http://www.lsjunction.com/events/events.htm (http://www.lsjunction.com/events/events.htm)
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Re: the Comanche attitude toward Surrender: I don’t see any great conflict between the absence of the word surrender in the Comanche language and the frequent examples off Comanche making sudden withdrawals from battle when they were outnumbered and out gunned in particular battles described in the book. It was simply a case of running away to fight another day under conditions more favorable to them. It was just a common sense maneuver necessary to win the continuing war. If It was a surrender It had to wait until the end in 1775 when there were no more than a few thousand Comanche left in the World that Quanah did the only thing left to do. But now I am ahead off our 2nd week schedule on a subject that had best be left for later
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Thank you AdoAnnie for your Texas History Time Line link AdoAnnie. I read it from the beginning to the end of the Civil War and Reconstruction. I agree it gives an Interesting over view of Texas History from the beginning of the first European contact just after 1500. I urge you all to read it. http://www.lsjunction.com/events/events.htm
Also thank you CallieinOK, for your link to the Comanche Nation Internet site. A study of the pages comprising this site will provider information on the Comanche people today. http://www.comanchenation.com/
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And here's a horizontal timeline where the Indians are covered along the yellow line. Not too much info but some. And its animated!
http://www.animatedatlas.com/timeline.html (http://www.animatedatlas.com/timeline.html)
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I love Time Lines! Thank you to all who are providing them.
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WELL, I'VE BEEN OUT FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS AND IT'S SO GREAT TO COME BACK INTO THE DISCUSSION AND READ ALL YOUR POSTS.
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!
And thanks, ANN, for those timelines. So much to read and absorb! As BABI stated earlier, I have been so ignorant of states' histories and, particularly, Texas history.
We all know where it is, we all know it is a big and wealthy state where the George H.W. and George W. Bush families live, where there is oil and border problems. And Dallas happened.
But I had no idea that the settlers were still fighting Indians after the Civil War! No idea at all.
JONATHAN and JOANP, thanks to you both for your comments about the Comanches and Cynthia, in particular; don't you think Cynthia was as happy with her little family as one could be. There she is working around the teepee, Daddy went hunting for their dinner, and her three children - Quanah, Peanuts and Prairie Flower - all playing or helping her. Sounds peaceful. Gwynne describes her life (pg.152) in a large Comanche camp, with about 500 other members; they had everything they needed.
The camp was located near the present-day town of Quanah. It was lovely country, hills and steep ridges surrounding it.
And then Gwynne treats us to a story that is a bit familiar to many of us - the bureaucracy composed of "people in cravats and waistcoats who lunched at fancy hotels and lived two thousand miles from the border."
That was Washington in the 1850's; sound familiar?
Many blunders were made. Chapter Eleven tells us all about it. I just finished reading it and one understands why it took so long to settle the Indian Wars.
Could there have been better decisions other than to settle the Indians on reservations? It was absurd to put them there, no Comanche could stay in one place long, how could they hunt, they never farmed, didn't know how.
What amazes me is why they didn't fish - what was wrong with eating fish? Or game, such as wild turkey or pheasant? I think that is strange.
But I have rattled on too long. There is so much to talk about in these chapters.
What are your thoughts today?
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QUANAH, TEXAS: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanah,_Texas
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HAROLD, I went back, today, and read the info about James Allred more carefully. Then, read info on the website you gave me. Very interesting! Thank you for helping me. I do not remember who told me that Allred was a g or gg grandfater, but obviously they were wrong.
I am surprised that my maternal grandmother never talked about James Allred. She and my grandfather talke much of the time about Huey Long. I got the timpression he was a relative, but he wasn't. LOL
BABI, my uncles are no longer alive. But, they were when I was a youngster. They were on my paternal side. My paternal, great grandmother was alive until I was 30 years old. Her mind was good until she died.
Thanks for the great Texas websites, and timeline. I have added them to my favorites list.
For the past couple of days, I have been thinking a lot about the American Indian women. I am very grateful I was not born female, in the 1700, or 1800s. All of that work they had to do. Reading about Cynthia Ann's appearance when she was returned to anglo life, made me shudder. Covered with greese and blood. Ughhh Life has been so much easier for me. I can understand though how she wanted to retunr to her Comanche family. How sad that her little daugfhter died. I wonder if she ever knew that Quanoh lived????
Sheila
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I haven't quite finished the reading for this week, but have a few comments.
Babi, I agree with you about students in certain states learning only the history of their state. I was raised in Connecticut and mostly what I learned was about the colonies, the Revolutionary War and Connecticut's role in it. We didn't learn in detail the growth of the United States other than when the rest of the states became part of it. We did study the Civil War - from the perspective of the North.
I found it interesting that, at first, the Army was at a disadvantage in fighting the Comanche because they were taught to ride into battle, then dismount. But when the Rangers took over, the disadvantage went to the Comanche since "They reacted to a given situation -- such as the killing of their war chief or medicine man -- in exactly the same way, every time. They were easily spooked." (p143) So the Rangers could predict the action of the Comanche and therefore attempted to kill the chief first.
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I mentioned that I have been reading two books here as I accidently came upon The Captured while looking for The Empire of the Summer Moon so I checked both out. Very interesting books and both well written. Here's a link to The Captured, just in case you want some more info on the children and women who were captured.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ut13Z3yz0uEC&pg=RA4-PT6&lpg=RA4-PT6&dq=The+Captured+by+scott+zesch-photos+in+book&source=bl&ots=VL4W45C2mR&sig=KBtos_H3FWBLEkeO9b4zjmxOmws&hl=en&ei=_PVVTa38L8mr8Abi_LiqBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=Ut13Z3yz0uEC&pg=RA4-PT6&lpg=RA4-PT6&dq=The+Captured+by+scott+zesch-photos+in+book&source=bl&ots=VL4W45C2mR&sig=KBtos_H3FWBLEkeO9b4zjmxOmws&hl=en&ei=_PVVTa38L8mr8Abi_LiqBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q&f=false)
I was particularlyl impressed with the remark made by Michael Wallis, author of The Real Wild West. He says about The Captured:
" Brings to light the start truth of the cultural clash between Native Americans and white settlers, told against a back drop of bigotry and fear on the Texas frontier. Reveals that both sides in the conflict were capable of alternating acts of compassion and brutality. Helps readers realize how white youths taken captive by Comanche warriors would often struggle between returning to their homes and blood ties and clinging to the nomadic lifestyle that some of them came to love.
Harold
I did just finish reading your suggested timeline link and its very well done but I wish it went up to 1924 when three of the boys that were captured in the 1800's attended a Reunion in Texas where they came together with some of the Comanche and Apache indians whom they knew during their time with the indians. Great pictures are included in the above mentioned book, of the year that the Comanches and white settlers held a truce meeting in 18---?? The pictures were actualally artistic renditions of the meetings. One by an administer's daughter who was there. I tried to locate copies of the pics but so far no luck.
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Look what I found re: The Old Trail Drivers Association Reunion of 1924. This is a 2005 issue with a long article and pictures of the Reunion.
http://www.texas-ec.org/texascooppower/issues_archive/2005/November/tcp1105.pdf
Click the little blue + button at the top to magnify the page. Use the down arrow on the side bar to scroll down to the article - which includes a picture of Minnie Caudle (as a young girl) and Banc Babb (taken in 1945)
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I saw those Callie but didn't link to them. Aren't those stories incredible! And I believe that those three men had also written books later about their lives with the Indians.
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I have reserved "The Captured" and hope to have it from the library soon.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 15-21 ~ Chapters 14-18
1. WE ARE HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK AND HAVE NOT TALKED AT ALL ABOUT QUANAH, THE INDIAN CHIEF, CYNTHIA PARKER’S SON!
What did you think about Quanah’s childhood? Were you surprised at his elopement; the manner in which he stole his bride?
What qualities did he possess that made him a great war chief? What tactics in battle?
2. Were you surprised that in 1861, the start of the Civil War, there were still around 1000 Comanches roaming around the Plains, stealing horses, killing settlers?
3. What effect did the Civil War have on the Plains Indians?
4. Explain the Indian Removal Act and its consequences.
5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life.
6. What was the battle which Gwynne states was one of the largest battles ever fought on the Great Plains?
7. “PEACE, AND OTHER HORRORS” - What did Gwynne mean by this title to Chapter 15?
8. What was President Grant’s Peace Policy and was it effective?
9. Quanah and Mackenzie, both excellent fighters and strategists, battled out on the plains. Describe the weakneess and the strengths of both sides.
10. In what ways did the white man subdue the Indians besides killing them? What efforts did the Comanche People make to erase the white people off their land?
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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Harold's post:
CallieinOK and all, I too have the Book with all those personal histories of Trail drive experience that came out of he Old Trail Drivers Association Reunion of 1924. I know those trail drives were going full swing 1870-1875. I know the accounts do mention trouble with the Indians, but the Comanche did not stop the trail drivers in those years when they were certainly active. It would seem to me a trail heard with a thousand head might be easy to stampede. If our Author was participating here in our discussion, I would ask him why he did not discuss the Trail Driver's Comanche experience.
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Harold, did you, Ella or anyone try to contact the author to see if he would come "talk" to us?
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Harold, my remark was due to Gwynne's statement that in any battle
with the Comanches, the whites had to fight to the death, as surrender
was not an option. It implied that all battles ended in victory or
death, whether immediate or by torture. Yet there were occasions when
the Indians simply abandoned a battle.
Ahh, ANNIE's second link is color-coded. Follow the yellow 'road'
to trace the Indian history. From the white view of what was important, of course.
ELLA, I wondered, too, why the Comanches didn't eat fish. As for
wild game, I don't imagine there was a great deal available out on
those plains. Rabbits and prairire dogs, maybe
How fortunate you were, SHEILA, to have a great-grandmother that
lived that long and that alert. I well remember the stories my
grandmother told me, but I only had one g-grandfather survive to an
age where I could meet him. He was still strong and active, raising
goats on a small farm.
ABERLAINE, we did study American history, but information about
particular states only came up when it influenced the national history.
The rangers were a motley lot. In appearance, they could hardly have
been reassuring. Some of the names are familiar to me, though.“Bigfoot” Wallace and “Allligator” Davis are figures of the local folklore.
It is John Coffee Hays who truly captures the imagination, tho’. A
remarkable young man, and a most appealing character. I would dearly love to see his story ,…an accurate, true-to-life version…on film.
Properly done, it would be a classic.
That is a most intriguing link, CALLIE. I wish I had more time to
peruse it. Minnie Caudle was a very pretty girl, wasn't she? And it's
good to see Banc Babb lived to an old age.
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Regarding why plains Indians did not fish, There is no real mystery here. True the plains rivers had their share of fish, but catching them was a problem. Even with properly baited hook, it took a lots of time to catch relatively few fish. Buffalo hunting was much more productive. A few hours on a properly organized horseback chase would yield 10,000 pounds of fresh meat. Fishing would have been a thousand times less productive.
The Farming Caddo Tribes in East Texas sometimes set trout lines. Yet even there fishing played a relatively minor role in their Food intake.
Again on the Comanche No Surrender tradition. I don't see a necessary strategic withdrawal from a battle as a surrender. In fact stubborn refusal to retreat would result in de facto surrender. As the Comanche practiced it, it was running away to fight another day. It in fact avoided surrender. For me in the end, even Quanah's decision to limp into the reservation still don't seem surrender. At least not in the WW II sense, But more on that 2 weeks later.
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Harold, I like your answers to the Comanches fishing and fighting habits. Somehow I can't imagine a Comanche sitting patiently hoping for a bite on his baited line. And I'm sure a Comanche would think it dumb to surrender if he saw a way to escape. Doesn't the author tell us somewhere that he would even try to avoid a fight? I believe I've read that the long line of forts that the Feds built in the fifties, north to south, were ignored by the Comanches. They never attacked forts. Stealth, surprise, hit and run, seemed the best battle tactics for him. They are still boasting: We were the Lords of the plains. (comanchenation.com) For a hundred years....
Nancy, I believe, drew our attention to the observation in the book that the Comanche was easily spooked. That does seem surprising. Or did, until I remembered reading that a big part of a Comanche boy's training were exercises in fighting his fears. That does make him human after all. And 'Indian Brave' has taken on a new meaning for me. A lot was expected of him in a lifetime of hunting and fighting with its many dangers. Killing a mean old buffalo was the least of them but still terrifying without courage.
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HAROLD, being our representative of the great state of Texas, had you heard of RIP FORD before reading this book (Rest in Peace, Ford), a most remarkable fellow! Gwynne devotes several pages to Mr. Ford (pg.165-172), and the Battle of Antelope Hill, which underscored the incompetence of the army and proved that "the Comanches can be followed, overtaken, and beaten, provided the pursuers will be laborious, vigilant, and are willling to undergo privations.
And the Texas Rangers were willing! Sounds like a good movie to me.
And, Harold, while I am asking questions this statement - "The Battle of Antelope Hills also brought into focus the rather thorny political question of who was better qualified to patrol the borderlands, federals or Texans." Is this still a thorny question today? The border is still very much in the news, isn't it?
Thanks, ANN, for that interesting information. On page 168 Gwynne states this:
"Women (Indian) were killed along with men......Women could ride as well as the men and were extremely adept with a bow. They were often killed as combatants (as would be true a hundred years later in the Vietnam War), and in any case were always potential combatants. Needless to say, the Tonkawas and Shawnees and other Indians had no such compunctions about killing women. Plains warfare was a fight to the death, always."
But Gwynne does say several times in the book that the Comanches tried to protect their women and children in a fight.
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CALLIE, No, I have not attempted to contact our author. Simon and Schuster is the publisher, huge, huge company, very difficult to get through to the author. Try if you would like!! Good luck.
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Regarding the line of Federal Forts that were built across Texas in the post civil war years, this was not the first line of Forts built by governmental authority to protect settlers from Indians. A hundred years earlier the Spanish had built an even more impressive line across their northern Boarder extending from the Gulf Coast through Southern Texas, Northern Mexico, New Mexico, Arizona and California. The purpose of these Forts were to defend Spanish settlements, principally from the Apache , but of course after the 1750’s the Comanche were certainly involved too. For many years from the early 1700 to the 1760’s there was one even in modern Louisiana just east of the present East Texas Border. The presidio at San Antonio was established in 1731 and about the same time a Presido at La Bahia was built.
Each of these forts was manned by a special frontier cavalry Corp (Dragons types that road horses to battle, but mostly dismounted to fight). They were located some 200 miles apart, each manned by from 50 to150 men recruited locally in Northern Mexico, Texas or New Mexico. They and their horses were burdened by some 50 pounds of armor, arms, and other gear. The armor was not metal but quilted protecting both the horse and ridrer. They also carried a spear and were trained in tactics involving a Calvary charge with spears. I know of no occasion when such a charge occurred. It seems they always dismounted to fight. They were officially called in Spanish by words when translated into English meant “Flying Corp.”
The men were poorly paid and trained and they were generally illiterate. A high proportion of enlisted ranks were married with children. As a fighting force their record was maybe C minus. They won a few but sure took their share of hardships and losses. These were the men who defended the presidio at the San Saba Mission as told in our book.
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"Plains warfare was a fight to the death, always."
(italics mine)
I’m not really surprised, but I was angered to read that some adventurers liked to ‘tag along’ with surveying parties “exploring the land, doing some hunting, and possibly shooting an Indian”. A nice little safari, hoping to shoot an Indian like he was a prize hunting specimen. Couldn’t mount him on the wall at home, of course, but no doubt a scalp made an appropriate trophy. Bah!
The settlers and the Comanche …”Both coveted the same land, and both wanted the other side to stop contesting it, and neither was willing to give anything meaningful in exchange.” And, of course, the settlers steadfastly ignored the fact that the Comanche were there first. From the Western point of view, no one was using the land, it was empty and unsettled, so why shouldn’t they farm it? The needs of the nomadic way of life were wholly foreign to them.
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Yes, BABI, but what would you suggest be done? Should the federal goverment, such as it was at the time, prohibit any land being settled west of the Mississippi, therefore giving the land to the Plains Indians? No settlements? No white man dare enter? How could it have been done anyway, where could they have gotten the force to keep out the white man?
And, of course, we are really stretching a dream! You cannot stop people from wanting land, farmers wanting to settle, support their families. They came with a dream of founding cities such as they had come from, a store, a courthouse, a church, etc.
We can debate the issue forever; most of us deplore what was done to the Indians but I have no ideas as to how to do otherwise.
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HAROLD, can you answer my questions in my previous post #285? It's interesting to me.
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Babi says in her post: 'I was angered to read that some adventurers liked to ‘tag along’ with surveying parties “exploring the land, doing some hunting, and possibly shooting an Indian”. A nice little safari, hoping to shoot an Indian like he was a prize hunting specimen.'
Babi, your anger is understandable and justified. What they did to each other was savage and horrifying. But I can't help feeling that these 'adventurers' were invited to come along by the surveyors as protection. Were, perhaps, even paid by the surveyors. The same is said about some of the Rangers. They did it for the fun. And in the Indian camps, our author tells us, any young buck could oraganize a raiding party for the same adventure.
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Ella: regarding your questions in post 285 above, If my memory sis correct the Battle of Antelope hill was between Texas Ranger and the Comanche just before the Civil war began. It seems Comanche raids on the settlements had become increasingly persistent and the Federal presence in Texas was unresponsive so Texas took matters in their own hands with a $70,.000 War Chest appropriation. The Ranger force was commanded by Rip Ford, who met the Comanche a village at a place known as Antelope Hill. The ranger force was supplemented by Tonkawa scouts. The battle was a victory for the Rangers with many Comanche dead including Comanche women who actively participated in the fighting. The battle also saw some hand to hand combat between the Tonkawa scouts and Comanche warriors.
Rip Ford who commanded Texas Forces went on to distinguish himself militarily during the Civil War as a Confederate officer. I thought I remember a West Texas College named after him but apparently not as Google did not find one. He definitely served as a post reconstruction Texas Governor. He remained a distinguished citizen throughout his lifetime.
So far as who was better qualified to protect the Texas frontier , the State of Federal Government, obviously it was the one with the military hardware and troops and the will to fight. During the years just before the Civil war it was the state, The federal Government was unresponsive and Texans were being killed. Later, After the War the situation was different. Then there was a Federal presence with the military hardware and troop, and more importantly the will to get the job done. I might add however that the Texas Ranges were still involved in the action.
Also you speak of American Women Army fighting during our Viet Nam War 100 years later. Is that true. Were American Women army personnel being assigned to combat units that early, as they certainly are today?
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Jonathan, comment on your Canadian Indian experience. Back in the 16 and 16 hundreds, I suspect some of your early experience in the east was a bit bloody too? Also I suspect that later in the West you handled things a bit better than in the U.S. I know that Sitting Bull and his band after the battle with Custer on the Little Bighorn sought safety in Canada. Give just a brief Commentary comparison.
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HAROLD, just one more question and then I will stop this "harassment." We, in the midwest - well, everywhere in the states actually - hear about border problems. Drugs coming in - immigrants coming in - a huge fence being built - more money for border patrols.
What do Texans, or you, believe is the best approach. Just a personal opinion. What is the best solution or is there one?
(the women in Vietnam is a quote from Gwynne on page 165 - I questioned it also)
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Article about women in war.
http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/swensson/bestresearch_womensoldiers.html (http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/swensson/bestresearch_womensoldiers.html)
And another:
http://www.tourofdutyinfo.com/Notebook/Essay3-women.htm (http://www.tourofdutyinfo.com/Notebook/Essay3-women.htm)
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We're back from a winter respite in sunny Florida...I've been off the computer for the past two days and am overwhelmed with the posts and the links here. Thanks so much for those time lines too. As soon as I get the dinner on the table I should have some time to absorb everything here. Well, maybe not "everything" - but at least some of the fascinating information you've been posting.
Here are some pictures Ella has asked to be posted - I'd love to find some of George Catlin's work too....he did a lot of illustrations of the Comanches.
(http://sagaofatexasranger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/walker-creek-colt-patersons-crossed.jpg)
Battle of Walker’s Creek Colt Paterson Revolvers
(http://sagaofatexasranger.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/walker-creek-navajo-ponies-for-comanche-warriors-by-frank-mccarthy2.jpg)
Battle of Walker's Creek
The battle of Walker's Creek really makes you feel you are there, doesn't it? For those who live in these areas of the country where the Comanches once roamed free - do you sense their presence? Do you find arrow heads in the ground? Do you run into descendants of those times on the streets? Are you always aware that this land was so different not all that long ago?
ps...this family needs dinner - am roasting a duck this afternoon - but I just had to find this George Catlin illustration of Comanche warfare that I had seen somewhere before...look at them using their horses as shields!
(http://www.georgecatlin.org/Comanche-Feats-of-Martial-Horsemanship,-1834.jpg)
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I was shocked to learn (although I shouldn't have been) that after Quanah's father was killed and his mother kidnapped, he was no longer treated with respect. His respect came from being the son of a chief. Once the chief was gone, so was the respect. I was sorry to learn that Peanut died at an early age.
Cynthia Ann never adjusted to the white man's life. She was always trying to escape, until she realized that she had been taken so far east that she'd never find her way back. And during that time she lost her daughter. Why can't we leave well enough alone? Does our opinion always have to be the only one and the right one?
P.S. The Lone Ranger was a Texas Ranger.
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Harold, I'm totally absorbed in this dramatic account of the Indian/White conflict down there in Texas, in the years before and after your Civil War. I'm resolved, as soon as we get through talking about this book, to learn more on the subject as it relates to the Canadian scene. There is so much one doesn't know. I'm also resolved to get in my car and find my way to Texas to see these places we're reading about.
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JoanP put the pictures up, Oh, Great! Aren't they marvelous.
I wanted the Colts up as a symbol of what technology can bring. Yesterday and today.
Gwynne tells us that guns - Colts, later better and better guns - were the defining moment in the west.
Gwynne has a lot of "defining moments" in this wonderful tale, but certainly we can all agree that bringing the repeating pistols into a battle defined the moment! The Indians now "faced the prospect of being blasted from horseback by guns that never emptied."
Early to bed for me, I'm very tired, early day tomorrow. Will be back then.
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HAROLD, just one more question and then I will stop this "harassment." We, in the midwest - well, everywhere in the states actually - hear about border problems. Drugs coming in - immigrants coming in - a huge fence being built - more money for border patrols. What do Texans, or you, believe is the best approach. Just a personal opinion. What is the best solution or is there one?
The truth is I am not real familiar with the details of the immigration problem that appears to be more centered in Arizona and California than in Texas. I suppose the problem is that the Federal Government is doing a poor job of enforcing and prosecution its own federal Laws relative to immigration and that as a result States are subject to the expense of prosecution of illegal aliens charged with violation of state laws, the cost of educating illegal children in public schools, and caring for them at local hospitals, etc. As the result of this problem, Arizona has passed a state law allowing local police who hold anyone arrested for any minor violation who appears might be alien for investigation concerning his citizenship status. This law is subject to charges concerning its Constitutional validity, an issue that is making its way through the Federal courts at this time.
I am inclined to agree with the charge that the Federal Government is doing a poor job with enforcement of its own Federal Laws relative to immigration and protection of the borders and the consequence of its failures have created a multitude of problems for State governments, not just border States but interior states as well where immigrants settle. It may be time for serious revision of federal immigration and interstate commerce laws and regulations.
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Regarding George Catlin and his Indian paintings I have five 11 X 14 pictures I made from a set of prints purchased from a book store in the 1950's. Twenty years later the color was fading so I copied them with my Nixon using Black & White film. From the negatives I made 11 X 14 inch prints that I changed the black prints to sepia before hand coloring them with transparent oil colors. Today they are framed and hanging on my bedroom walls. There are several buffalo hunt scenes, one of a Comanche roping a wild horse and two of Indian dances.
George Catlin made a visit to Texas in the early 1840. His story is included in his North American Indians book, Vol 2 published in 1973 by Dover. He accompanied a U.S. Calvary regiment on a mission through Indian Territory to return a Comanche woman who had been liberated by the army from another tribe. They seem to have had no hesitation in violating the northern border of the Republic of Texas. They were successful in delivering the woman to her tribe and continued negotiations on a possible Comanche peace treaty, a negotiation that went no where. On the return the Regiment was struck with a disease styled Bilious Fever. Whatever that was it was most deadly and something like 1/3 of the men died including its commanding officer. Catlin was late in contracting the disease and was able to complete the last several days of the return Journey to Fort Smith Arkansas where he recovered in the Army post sickbay.
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Joan, thank you for the pictures of the marvelous paintings. They really bring the story to life, don't they?
I am in awe of the ability to cling to the side of a horse at full gallop while shooting arrows or a gun.
I could barely stay on a horse if I held on the the saddle horn and it was standing still!!!
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NANCY, thanks for your post. A sad story about Quanah's mother and little sister wasn't it? But I think as Quanah grew up, he did become a great war chief; with his personality he was able to recruit warriors. We'll learn more about his exploits and his life in the next chapters.
JONATHAN! Let's plan a group trip to Texas to explore these sites. We can fly into Amarillo, maybe, hire a driver and a van, go to Lubbock, follow the Red River down, plan our trip for next fall.
HAROLD, can you find us a knowledgeable driver for five days - we will all divide up the costs - preferably someone from the Indian Museum - an Indian?
We can even see if those SeniorLearn folks from over east want to join us? I'm good for a few hours a day, but tire easily when walking, so I'll sit in the van and listen to the rest of you and look out the window at the lovely country.
Callie, I can't even get up on a horse, they frighten me. I love watching them though, they are magnificent animals. We used to go a local racetrack where they had a fine restaurant and we would bet the favorites, make enough money to pay for our meal and parking. Fun in those days! I love to watch racehorses! They are beautiful!
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So true, ELLA, and actually that's pretty much what happened. On the
occasions when the govenment did attempt to discourage or stop
settlers from going any further West, it didn't work at all. Land
hungry settlers saw all that supposedly empty land and just kept
going.
JONATHAN, I do hope it's more a case of those young men looking for
adventure and glory, rather than 'fun'. If not, I imagine one trip
out into the plains, traveling as the Rangers did, would have ended
any notions of it being fun.
There were men hired by the surveyers for protection. The 'big game'
hunters seemed to be going for the thrill, but I don't doubt the extra
guns were welcome.
Speaking as a Texan, ELLA, I would have to say that opinions as to
how to deal with the illegal immigrant problem on the border are
divided. There is little agreement as to what exactly should be done
and no easy solution to the problem. I don't recall every seeing
a landscape like that one in the area. That outcropping of rock just
doesn't fit. I could be wrong.
JOANP, that painting of the Battle of Walker's Creek is beautiful,
but rather fanciful. The second painting is also beautiful, and appears more realistic.
A fine example of Gwynne’ s irony: “Every so often troops would be sent forth with the glorious task of breaking Comanche power forever. Every so often they would actually find Comanches and kill a significant number of them.”
Now we have a really good example of a failure to communicate. After years of successful action against the Comanche by Hays Rangers, the government and the Army still hadn’t learned anything from them. As soon as Hays moved on and the Rangers were disbanded, the Army moved in with the same wholly useless tactics they had gotten them killed before.
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I want to say something about a noted Ranger Captain, John Coffee Hays. In the early 1840’s he figured in several noted skirmishes with Comanche during which he seemed to learn from the Comanche how to fight them. In June 1844 he became Captain of a Ranger company responding to a Comanche intrusion west of Austin, northwest of San Antonio. His men had one new advantage. They were armed with an early 5 shot repeating revolver. It was the first early version of the Colt revolver. To reload it required inserting a new cartage an operation that was possible on horseback,
In 1844Hay’s ranger company armed with these pistols met a Pentanka war party on Waller Creek . Hays directed the operation correctly with his men mounted in a circle as the Indians charged around them. The repeating fire power cut the Comanche down while Range causalities were few since the Comanche did not get close enough to use their spears and arrows effectively. The Comanche seeing the effectiveness of the Range firepower hastily made one of their strategic withdrawals. This battle of Plum Creed was a significant Texan victory. It was an interesting herald of things to come, but the reality was that the Comanche problem would be around for another 3 decades.
John Coffee Hays did not stay long in Texas. In1849 he came down with a case of the Gold Fever and left to seek his fortune in the California Gold fields. I have no information of his success or failure there, though I am sure if any of you are interested Google is available to find the answer. Later the Texas Legislature honored him by naming a county after him. This is Hays County on I-35 between Austin and San Antonio. Today it is a thriving University town with a population of over 50,000.
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Regarding the organizing of a possible trip to Texas let me say that 5 years back we discussed a possible Trip lasting several days centered in San Antonio with a side Trip to Austin. I would have conducted tours of the River Walk, the Institute of Texan Cultures, and the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park. It would have been in November and the day trip to Austin would have been to the Texas Book Festival that is held annually inside the Texas Capital . This is a huge building after the pattern of the U.S. Capital whose dome with the Goddess Texana atop stands higher then the US capital.
I tried to put together a trip package but the uncertainty of the numbers who show up, coupled with the need for arranging Hotel accommodations and bus transportation for a firm number of attends made the project impossible for me to organize. While I will, subject to health and previous committeemen, welcome any of you who might in the future be in San Antonio with a Tour of the local sites, I must decline the organizing of any tour involving Hotels and or bus transportation.
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Harold, I bought Mom the Catlin volumes you mentioned years ago. I don't recall that she read them, but Dad did. He found them quite interesting. I just reaquired the volumes last year when when moved Mom to her present location. I have not yet read them, but am looking forward to it in the future.
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"After years of successful action against the Comanche by Hays Rangers, the government and the Army still hadn’t learned anything from them. As soon as Hays moved on and the Rangers were disbanded, the Army moved in with the same wholly useless tactics they had gotten them killed before." - BABI
Gwynne tells us that "Comanche raids in 1864, to take just one year, were the worst in history; 1871 and 1872 were bad years, too."
As much as everyone wanted peace, there seemed to be no way.
But I love the way Gwynne described the world of the Plains Indians:
It was a world "of pure magic, of beaver ceremonies and eagle dances, of spirits that inhabited springs, trees, rocks, turtles, and crows; a place where people danced all night and sang bear medicine songs, where wolf medicine made a person invulnerable to bullets, dream visions dictated tribal policy, and ghosts were alive in the wind."
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Babi, I think you're right. Those magnificent warriors in the pictures supplied by Joan, are certainly engaged in something more than just fun. They are out for glory, and, no doubt, anticipating the victory dance.
What is it about that part of the country, that makes it so attractive to people looking for a new home? Now they are illegal immigrants. During the Comanche Empire days the newcomers were looked on as invaders. And before that the Comanches pushed other tribes out of the way before enjoying the kingdom. Did they all think of it as Manifest Destiny?
Texas, here we come. As innocent tourists. Unarmed. Let's hope for a nice welcome, Ella.
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hi there
its Deb lurking in the shadows since I needed to return my book to the library
I am wondering ....in Brownsville, there is a Coffeeport Rd, and if that is linked to Hays as his middle name was Coffee!!!!
Victoria, Texas is mentioned I believe in the book, and Glenn and I have travelled thru that region and San Antonio vicinity as well....I have amazing pictures in my mind from reading this book and being in this country area...I am determined to visit the other areas mentioned and must reread the book when we get home to determine a route line...Texas is supposed to have so many variations of climate and landscape...of course it is so big...I wonder why in the constitution the clause to 'have the ability to divide it in up to 5 states'...that information came from Texas by Michener...and am hoping that is correct
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The right of Texas to divide itself in to five separate states is not in any constitution. It is in several of the Congressional Annexation Bills that brought Texas into the union. As I said before their does not appear to be any urge at all to do it and I sure any attempt to do so would be meant with constitutional and other legal challenge.
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Frybabe: True just before the Civil War began there was a significant Texas victory/Comanche defeat. When the War began all the Ranges joined the Confederate army. I think there were Texas Ranger units that participated as such in several of the major Civil War battles. This left the Texas Frontier defenseless against the Comanche. It was not a happy time ifor Texas.
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JONATHAN, I personally think 'manifest destiny' was a ploy of the
government and politicians, to justify their intention to 'take it all'.
The Comanche moved in to follow the buffalo. The settlers wanted land.
Todays illegal immigrant are looking a better life and income than they
have at home...which is basically what the early immigrants were looking for. It's simply that the native Indians didn't have immigration laws or the power to enforce them.
We did have a really bad habit of giving away what wasn’t ours, didn’t we? The words of Sanaco of the Penatekas summed it up perfectly. “You come into our country and select a small patch of ground, around which you draw a line, and tell us the President will make us a present of this to live on, when everybody knows that the whole of this entire country, from the Red River to the Colorado, is ours and always has been since time immemorial.”
Side note: I was startled by the words, “They crossed rivers in the tracks of the buffalo, to avoid quicksand.” Somehow I never associated quicksand with the Plains rivers. I suppose I assumed that quicksand could not form there; why, I don't know.
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NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING, AND.....
THE FIRST ONE HAS TO DO WITH LOVE!!! DID YOU MISS IT???
QUANAH WAS IN LOVE, SHE WAS IN LOVE, BUT HER FATHER WAS OPPOSED!
TOO BAD WE DIDN'T DISCUSS THIS ON VALENTINE'S DAY - THE PERFECT STORY!!!
LET'S DISCUSS THE QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING!!! CHAPTERS 14 THROUGH 18, OUR THIRD WEEK!
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Speaking of Quanah and his love for Weckeah, I was quite amazed at the 21 braves and Quanah traveling to the San Marcos area and remaining there for over a year as they stole horses to offer to Weckeah's father. And the visits of the men's wives and sweethearts. Now finally her father arrives and decides he would be beaten by Quanah's war party so he settles his gripes with Quanah's group. What a solution! And a peaceful one too!
I had to laugh at the stories told by the elders to the children about Piamempita--The Big Cannibal Owl who ate naughty children. Sometimes we all need a Big Cannibal Owl story for out children to fear!
Ella, I know this post probably doesn't fit in here but I wrote it on Valentine's Day and forgot to hit the post button until now. I am reading the book, honestly. I just got a little sentimental for a few minutes after consuming all those chocolates that Ralph always gives me and remembered that I did live in Texas at one time.
We lived there while my husband served in the Air Force,( San Antonio and Austin), for three years. It took me almost a year to recover from the home sickness that I felt after leaving wonderful friends and neighbors that we had gotten to know so well. Wonderful generous folks who were so kind to us.
And the weather will not to be forgotten. Northers' that forced one to remove just hung laundry from the line immediately, sleeping with sand in our bed as no matter what we did to prevent it, the dust and sand sifted through all fabric coverings. Ice storms in January, picnicing in 75 degree weather in February, the rains of September and Christmas, with open windows to let in warm breezes. Sounds as though I continue to miss it, doesn't it?
I still have relatives living in Texas and my great aunt (my grandfather's sister) died in the Galveston tidal wave of 1909, along with her 6 children and husband. While searching for gravesites in and around Galveston for the family genealogy, I found an interesting tidbit concerning the Galveston Old Catholic Cemetery.
Buried there is Galveston's first practicing physician, Dr Nicholas Labadie who treated Texan and Mexican wounded at San Jacinto and served as interpreter for surrender of General Santa Anna. This is of no value here except that we are reading about these battles in this book and voila! a connection pops up out of nowhere!
JoanP,
Your pictures are beautiful.
Harold,
I truly enjoyed your story of the pictures that you have hanging in your home!
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JONATHAN - Before we all cast a stone south, hear this:
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2011/02/15/quiet-border-getting-noisy.html
AN NOW BACK TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDLED PROGRAM:
QUANAH, BIG CHIEF, BIG INDIAN CHIEF
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Ella,
Aware of the border that we never consider, I have seen several articles plus TV stories about Canada and its unprotected areas of the border. Its a real problem that wasn't worrying anyone for a long time.
I did comment on Quanah earlier but you must have missed it! Hahaha!
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Annie, don't ever apologize for posting descriptions such as you did...of life on the Plains. I could sense the wind, the dust, the sand from your memories. It occurred to me when reading of the attempts to turn these Plains Indians into farmers - that perhaps the land was not condusive to farming.
I'm going to confess that I never thought of Texas at war with the Indians during the Civil War - and then I read the coming chapters and see that the troops forgot about the Plains too at this time, allowing the Comanches free rein over Comancheria...
I don't think I ever studied Texas and Oklahoma in a history class. Glad to be catching up now!
In the opening pages of this book, I noted that the morning of Oct.3, 1871 marked the beginning of the end of the Indian Wars - that's when the order went out to the Fourth Cavalry and the Eleventh Infantry to kill all Comanches - the final solution.
We're getting nearer to that date now at the close of the Civil War.
There's so much here - in the book and in your posts! Ella, I promise to get to the grown up Quanah, Quanah BIG ChIEF, but first would like to put up some of these scribbled notes by my computer...
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Two more things noted in previous chapters - that got me thinking...
1. "When Comanches robbed houses they invariably took all the books they could find." Dd that strike you at all? What did you think when you read that?
2. I loved the photos in the center of the book. I had studied the photo of Cynthia Parker, but didn't pay particular notice of the fact that she is breast feeding little Prairie Flower in the photograph. It wasn't until I read that this was unheard of at the time - for a white woman's breast to be exposed in a photograph. The photographer really regarded Cynthia Ann as a savage. Who knows, maybe she refused to be photographed otherwise. I can remember those old National Geographics in the 70's...the boys always wanted to study them as the native women were often portrayed "topless." Do they still do that? I just asked my husband, who gets the magazine - and he said, "I don't know." What does that say about him?
That poor miserable woman. You could feel her desperate wish to escape back to her old life as she knew it. She doesn't even know that Quanah is still alive. I thought it was funny that a neighbor of the Parkers' observed that Cynthia Ann was "stout" - at 140 lbs. She was tall for a woman, wasn't she? In my book, 140 lbs is just fine on a woman who is 5'7".
Gwynne described another photo of her - a tintype, the first picture taken of her when she was retaken.
This was taken in Austen - described in the book:
"The image shows a woman who has clearly been gussied up, though she looks deeply uncomfortable in her new clothes. Her hair is pulled back in what looks like some sort of net. She wears a patterned cotton blouse and a striped skirt and what looks like a woolen robe clasped at the neck. Her unusally large and work-scarred hands are crossed on her lap.
Her gaze is direct, supplicating and utterly miserable."
I just had to search for that photograph and thought you might like to see it too -
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4102/4819386194_07ff3d8c66.jpg)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb. 15 - 21 Chapters 14-18
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 15-21 ~ Chapters 14-18
1. WE ARE HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK AND HAVE NOT TALKED AT ALL ABOUT QUANAH, THE INDIAN CHIEF, CYNTHIA PARKER’S SON!
What did you think about Quanah’s childhood? Were you surprised at his elopement; the manner in which he stole his bride?
What qualities did he possess that made him a great war chief? What tactics in battle?
2. Were you surprised that in 1861, the start of the Civil War, there were still around 1000 Comanches roaming around the Plains, stealing horses, killing settlers?
3. What effect did the Civil War have on the Plains Indians?
4. Explain the Indian Removal Act and its consequences.
5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life.
6. What was the battle which Gwynne states was one of the largest battles ever fought on the Great Plains?
7. “PEACE, AND OTHER HORRORS” - What did Gwynne mean by this title to Chapter 15?
8. What was President Grant’s Peace Policy and was it effective?
9. Quanah and Mackenzie, both excellent fighters and strategists, battled out on the plains. Describe the weakneess and the strengths of both sides.
10. In what ways did the white man subdue the Indians besides killing them? What efforts did the Comanche People make to erase the white people off their land?
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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Ella, that's an interesting story in The Columbus Dispatch this morning. We've been so proud of our mutual border for so many years. The longest, undefended border in the world, etc. Something has to be done about the drug-running of course. Doesn't it remind us of the booze smuggling of the Prohibition years. Several giant Canadian fortunes were made in the whiskey trade. I don't know if it's still there, but for years an old scow loaded with booze was hung up on the rocks in the Niagara river, just above the falls. Me and my buddies used to sit on the bank and wonder how we could get at it. The churning waters at the foot of the falls were awash with the bodies of the fools who had tried it.
The border problems today are of mutual concern. Since 9/11 authorities in both countries have cooperated in matters of security. Terrorism affects us all. We'll lick the problem. Refugees and assylum seekers will always be with us. Let's be charitable.
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Joan “When Comanche robbed houses they invariably took all the books they could find.” Did that statement appear in the Book?. I sure let that one slip by unnoticed. In 1689 when the Spanish first found the French Fort St Louis several months after the final assault, they found the remains of bodies, and evidence of systematic looting of cloth and metal items and French books decaying where they fell. What did the Comanche use them far --- Maybe fire starters.
Regarding the picture of Cynthia Ann. It is an unusually good picture for an old tintype. Her features sort of reminded me of my late aunt Alberta. Also her face and large muscular hands appear quite unscarred, but they were large an muscular as they should have been considering her long tenure as a Comanche housewife. The lack of face and hand scars might suggest it was not Cynthia Ann except the face and hands do appear the same person as the picture of Cynthia Ann with her daughter, Prairie Flower that appears with the pictures at the end of my Digital Book.
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Babi: Regarding “Manifest Destiny” ---. Of course, It was the ploy du jour of 19th century politicians , quite similar to ones of today coming out from contemporary State of the Union speeches, Inaugural addresses, and most every political speech from lesser occasions.
Adooannie; The big Galveston hurricane induced tidal flood came in 1900, not 1909.That was the worst natural disaster in U.S. history. Half the population of Galveston was killed. Was that the storm that killed your relative or was their some less well known flooding again in 1909? I have an Interesting 1908 picture made by Grandfather of the then brand new Sea wall This Seawall has protected the City since then from tidal waves like the one in 1900 that killed so many of its people.
Jonathan, I’m sorry to hear of friction on our Northern Border too. Previously my only experience crossing there was in the 80’s when I Visited St Andrews New Brunswick to attend a professional meeting. I flew to Bangor Maine and drove a rented car from Bangor to St Andrew. I never had any trouble with Canadian customs inspections but in late Sept 1988 I had a lady passenger on the return trip from another attendant company. Alas the U.S. Customs found the Cuban Cigars she had purchased in Canada in her luggage - definitely a no, no. It came out alright., though the incident was definitely an embarrassment for her, we were allowed to pass through, but of course, without the Cuban Cigars.
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Re: The Comanches stealing books:
Page 175: "According to Goodnight, Comanche shields, made of two layers of the toughest rawhide from the neck of a buffalo and hardened in fire, were almost invulnerable to bullets when stuffed with paper. When Comanches robbed houses, they invariably took all the books they could find."
Shame on Cynthia Ann's family for allowing her to be stared at and paraded in front of people like a side-show character!
What a poignant scene on Page 188 when Coho Smith spoke to her in Comanche and she finally had someone to talk to who would comprehend (I just deleted the word "understand"!!) what she said.
And such a sad statement on Page 189: "Her tragedy was that (a woman who knew what she wanted and how to get it) was utterly helpless to change the destiny that her family, with the best of intentions, arranged for her."
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Question? It was noted that Nacona took no other wives but later on it was written that one of his indian wives took care of quanah for a time after his mother left. She died and he was left without adult support. Was this wife acquired after Cynthia was returned to the white culture or did he actually have more wives as iwas the custom?
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haha, Callie, you answered my question about Comanches stealing books! I was thinking they were actually trying to learn English - but no, they were stuffing shields in order to better protect themselves. That is funny!
Jean, I think I read that Peta Nocona had one other wife besides Cynthia Ann- a full Comanche - with whom he had several other sons.
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Here's the 1909 tidal waves of Texas:
1909 JUN 25 LOWER
-30 COAST
1909 JUL 13 VELASCO 3 41 Half of Velasco destroyed. Galves-
22 ton had 10' tides. Bay City damaged
Pressure 958 mb. Tide 9.0' at
Velasco.
1909 AUG 20 LOWER 2 Major in Mexico over 1500 killed.
-28 COAST Parts of Padre Island washed over
by storm surge.
And here's the article about my great aunt and family.
http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/654013/person/-1988673720/media/2
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I almost forgot to go watch NCIS because I was looking at pix and reading about the Llano Estacado and Caprock.
I think this pix is marvelous: http://gordondarrow.com/gallery/graphicart/llanoestacado.htm
Likewise these pix accompanying a blurb about the Sibley Nature Center at Midland, TX. Click the pix to enlarge.
http://www.sibleynaturecenter.org/photoessays/canyonlandtour/index.html
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JoanP,
We used to say that the sun touched the earth every time it set. Beautiful state!
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And just wait until you get to the Palo Duro Canyon...
http://www.palodurocanyon.com/
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Oh thank you Mary, I was looking for the link to the Palo Duro Canyon that I previously saw, but couldn't find it again. Yours is even better. It even has a little more about Mackenzie's operation there. And, wasn't there something about Charlie Goodnight earlier in our book? Isn't that rock formation out of this world?
I am in the process of checking out if Clovis, NM is in the Llano. And, I want to learn more about the prehistoric fossils found in the area. Strange creatures.
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Here is a list of Texas Natural Resources which includes the Llano Estacado as well as other Texas sites. I am excited because at least four of these links are PowerPoint presentations. That is one of the programs I just finished learning to use. For all the bird lovers there are links to birding info. http://www.llanoestacado.org/links.htm
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The Texas plains were much better suited to ranching, provided
you had water on the property. Not surrising, considering that they
sustained those huge buffalo herds. Beef and oil, the mainstays of
Texas prosperity.
Thanks, FRYBABE AND MARYZ, for those beautiful pictures.
Quanah's childhood? Finally, more than half way through the book, we have arrived at the subject of the title. I was astonished to learn that Comanche boys had no ‘chores’ to do. Of course, I learned later that they began herding horses at a very young age. Apparently that was not considered a chore. Still, the description of their carefree life was certainly attractive.
And Lo and Behold! Comanche children also had their bogeyman, the Big Cannibal Owl, who came at night to eat naughty children. Children were much loved and seldom punished. It becomes easier to see why 9-yr. old Cynthia Ann adapted so thoroughly be adopted into Indian life.
(In passing, I was surprised to hear of a bird called a ‘dirt dauber’. The only dirt daubers I know of are wasps. I couldn’t find any birds of that name on-line, either.)
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Beautiful, wondrous pictures. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR FINDING THEM![/b]
What photography - those pics of the Sibleynature center that Frybabe put on are the most beautiful colors - you must enlarge them and marvel!
This is an education into the State of Texas as well as the history of the Comanches, but weren't you all surprised to find a love story in the middle of the book? And why did Quanah's father-in-law object to him? How could he? Could you find a better specimen, even though he was poor, and had a mixture of white blood!
But to get to the UNCIVIL WARS AS Chapter 14 is called. It's very interesting the effect our great civil war had on the Plains Indians.
Civil Wars, gosh, what a topic that is at the moment, with the Middle East in an uproar!
But we must stick to our Plains Indians, our Comanches. How could they have obtained freedom from the white man's persecution? What was this Indian Removal Act our book talks about?
Were you aware that some of the Indians tribes had slaves?
And that in Minnesota the Sioux Indians killed 800 white settlers - and that prior to 9/11 it was "highest civilian wartime toll in U.S. history?
That's just for starters in this chapter. What struck you as fascinating facts?
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Thanks all for the pictures...and the links. So much to read - it makes the place that much more real as we read about it.
"Finally, more than half way through the book, we have arrived at the subject of the title."Babi
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Babi - glad you brought up the title - Empire of the Summer Moon. I've been thinking about its meaning since we started. Do you think Gwynne will use those words in the book before we finish? What do you think he meant by this? The Empire is the Comanche lands, right? Comancheria. But summer moon? I was just reading about how the Comanches roamed the Plains freely during the summer, but in winter, they would come in to the camps if not the reservations. Your thoughts?
Ella - we were posting together...will be back after "gym class" to consider the Indian Removal Act. I'm sure Callie will have some input on this too.
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Joan, you're beginning to know me tooooo well! :D
Gwynne slips in a reference to the title now and then - but I don't remember seeing the exact words.
No time for research right now. However, I'll be "the adult presence" for two teenage grandchildren over a long weekend and will be looking for things to keep me busy in between taxi service duties. :)
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I remember reading in one of the chapters that the Comanche often went on raiding forays on moonlit nights and that the settlers learned to fear moonlit nights because this.
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You're right, Frybabe. In Chapter 11 we read:
'...most of Nocona's (Quanah's father) raids came at night, by the light of what already widely referred to in Texas as a Comanche moon....People on moonlit nights were in perfect dread...the beautiful nights of the full moon, instead of being a source of pleasure, were on the contrary, to be dreaded as the worst of evils. Whole families and settlements were wiped out...ceased to exist, leaving as monuments smoking, burned-out cabins, and bodies mutilated beyond recognition. The raiders stole cattle and horses....Moving by night, they almost impossible to apprehend.'page 154
I watched The Searchers last night. A marvellous film, especially for someone reading this book. I believe it inspired the author, gave him a main theme.
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Yes, two hundred pages into the book, we finally get to meet our hero. What a description. We are told:
'The most dramatic story of Quanah's early life involves his marriage.'
It's dramatic alright, but nothing like what he had already done. We are told in the previous pages, (200-2):
His first raid was a foray with thirty warriors from a camp in SW Kansas...through Oklahoma, all the way to San Antonio...They indulged themselves in what, for the Comanches, was routine mischief.
Quanah's second raid was more interesting. This time he rode out with sixty warriors from their camp in W Oklahoma. They swept west and south into New Mexico
At twenty, Quanah took part in an extended expedition into Mexico with nine warriors under the command of the Kiowa chief Tohausan, famous from the battle of Adobe Walls
Also in 1868 he took part in some of the Comanche raids into the Texas hill country, raids that history records as extremely , vengefully violent.
There's more. He comes out of it all a chief in his own right. Is it any wonder that Wechea wanted him, and not that boy with the rich father?
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JOANP, I do want to say THANK YOU for finidng and posting that picture of Cynthia Ann Parker, there she is all dolled up by the white folks, while inside her head and heart she is longing to escape.
What picture of Cynthia do you all of you prefer - the one in the book or the one JOANP just posted? Why?
The title of the book? (page 110):
"Their world was thus suspended in what seemed to be perfect equilibrium, a balance of earth and wind and sun and sky that would endure forever. An empire under the bright summer moon."
Reminds me of what ANN said about Texas and her love of the weather, the sun and sky.
And it seems that the Indian raids only worsened, JONATHAN, during the years of the Civil War as most of militia, the rangers, the young men and soldiers went to war over east and there was no leash on the Indians. It is awesome, terrible to read of these raids, the Indians killing each other, raids on the agrarian tribes:
"By late 1863 it had become clear to most of the free-ranging horse tribes on the southern plains that there were no soldiers to stop them.......Huge stretches of land that had been settled as far back as the 1850's became completely depopulated. Comanche attacks virgually shut down the Santa Fe Trail."
And into all of this violence steps Kit Carson, one of the most storied men in American history. Remember him when you were a kid?
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Right on, JONATHAN! (We were posting together and you got that right!)
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Many thanks for the pictures of the Llano Estacado. And the Palo Duro Canyon. Magnificent. The Canyon, we are told, was formed by water erosion from the Prairie Dog Town Fork of the Red River. I had read about prairie-dog towns, but could never picture them until I read about them at the beginning of the book, page 9:
...common in the Texas Panhandle and extremely dangerous to horses and mules. Think of enormous anthills populated by oversized rodents, stretching for miles.
Wow!
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Ella: 'What picture of Cynthia do you all of you prefer - the one in the book or the one JOANP just posted? Why?'
There's a third picture. Also in the book, which I find really admirable. Cynthia Ann in the frame, and her imposing son Quanah proudly showing her off.
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Regarding CallieinOK’s comment on Comanche shields: that description essentially agrees with several accounts given by early writers who lived with plains tribes including George Catlin. There might have been a third layer. Also the skin use for shields would have been from an old thick skinned bull and the layers were glued together using a glue made from the core of the hoof of a buffalo. It is said that such a shield would stop an arrow coming straight on and even deflect a musket ball coming at an angle. I suppose a shield could be fabricated using books placed close together sewed between two skin of fabric covers, but I doubt they would have been as protective as the traditional rawhide skin shield.
Regarding Nacona’s wives mentioned by Jean Clark I might add that there were 2 principal reasons for the multiplicity of wives among plains Indian tribes, First there were always more women than men at any time because of battle causalities killing off men. And second the household work load required more than one person (four of five were common). The Early writers often mention the inequity where the younger women were prone to leave the heavy drudgery to the older ones. I suspect there were five or six women attached to Nacona’s household; a documented record showing how their duties were assigned has not survived. Looking at the two pictures of Cynthia Ann that are available to us, aside from her rather muscular body particularly her large hands there is no real indication of a lifetime of hard physical labor. Her face may show evidence psychological trama.
And ADDOANNE that 1909 tidal wave is an interesting revelation. The 1909 hurricane (Aug 20 -28,1909 seems to have come up the Texas coast from the south. It seems to have been particularly strong as it passed the long 200 mile long Padre Island between Brownsville and Corpus Christi. At that time the Galveston Seawall was complete and I did not see any internet record of a tidal inundation of the city as had occurred 9 years earlier.
I must break now and will not be back until late the evening. Please continue adding your excellent thoughts and comments about your views and interpretations of this excellent book
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If you all have three pictures of Cynthia Ann, you have one more than I have. I do not have the hard copy book. My digital copy has some 6 or 7 pictures at the end mostly of Quanah, only one of Cynthia Ann. I have of course also seen the picture of her posted 2 days ago. That is the larger framed tintype. If there are more perhaps a copy could the posted?
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There is only one picture of Cynthia Ann in my book as well, and it is a hardcopy.
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I do not have the book you are discussing however, I thought y'all may be interested in reading Mrs. Birdsong's understanding of how her grandmother was captured and the different story the Comanche have of events as compared to the army - her recollection of events was agreed to by Horace P. Jones who was an interpreter at Fort Sill in 1896 and who was interviewed by the author of this article written in 1934 in the Chronicles of Oklahoma. (http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/v012/v012p163.html)
Cynthia Ann Parker starved herself to death and in this article is her gravestone and a photo of the ranch house belonging to Quanah.
And here is a wonderful link to the Parker Family Annual Reunion (http://www.parkerreunion.com/) that also features a link to Empire of the Summer Moon - and so it appears the family must approve of this book. But notice the headshot of Cynthia Ann the family chose for the banner.
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In 1957, the bodies of Quanah, Cynthia Ann and Prairie Flower were moved to the Chief's Knoll in the Fort Sill cemetery, Lawton, Oklahoma. (This came from a link in findagrave.com - but I can't get it to post as a link)
Barb, the link to The Parker Family Reunion is really interesting. By clicking "more" in the June, 2011 notice, you'll see that this year's Reunion has been moved to Quanah, Texas.
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There are two pictures in the book showing the picture of Cynthia Ann nursing the baby. One is of the photo itself. The other one is a picture of Quanah in later life with that photograph on the wall behind him.
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From what I recall of the shields, HAROLD, the paper was placed
between the buffalo hide in the shield. It added to the strength of
the shield. I don't I've ever heard of fabric shields.
You're so right about the need for more women to handle the workload. One of the reason the Comanches sought adult women captives was to work more buffalo hides for trade.
BARB, that article was most interesting. I raised my eyebrow at the
quote by Victor Rose, attributed to Cynthia Parker: "I am happily wedded. I love my husband, who is good and kind, and my little ones, too, are his, and I cannot forsake them." That sounds very much
to me like something Rose would have liked her to say, but not at all
the way Parker would have spoken....if she spoke at all.
I can believe that the "village" captured by the Texas Rangers was not a regular Comanche village, but a hunting camp, occupied by women and Mexican slaves who were getting a meat supply. That fits in
perfectly with the description we have of a group of women, children and Mexicans packing up meat for transport.
The reports of the ‘battle’ in which Pita Nocona died were grossly exaggerated. Even Ross, who led this skirmish, declared the “great Comanche confederacy was forever broken.” Either he was painting a glowing picture to gain votes, or he fell into the old mistake of thinking that the ‘war chief’ he killed was ‘the’ non-existent head war chief of all the Comanche.
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Thank you Barbara for your post and the link to the Chronological of Oklahoma Paper on Cynthia Ann Parker. I did a quick read and it appears to differ from some of the traditional versions of the story. I will read it later with more detail and I urge others to do so also.
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Hi BARBARA! THANKS FOR YOUR POST! That article by Jones in the CHRONICLES OF OKLAHOMA is referenced in our book (see Notes on pg. 334). So our author has done his research, I think! But there are details in that article that are a bit different in our book, I didn't catch all of them (BABI quoted one) but Cynthia Parker's young daughter died of pneumonia, rather than "pining away" - but then who knows.
Cynthia did starve herself to death, according to our author.
An interesting note about the picture of Cynthia breast-feeding her baby in our book. I thought it odd that such a picture would have been taken at the time and read more closely: (pg.190)
"There is probably no precedent for this sort of photography on the Texas frontier in 1862. White women were not photographed with their breasts exposed. And even if a photographer had taken such a photo, no newspaper would have published it.......This one was different. It became the picture of Cynthia Ann that generations of schoolchildren knew; it is still in wide circulation. The only explanation is that because Cynthia Ann was seen, and treated, as a savage, even though she was as white as any Scots-Irish settler in the south. The double standard is similar to the one National Geographic Magazine famously applied in the mid-twentieth century to photographs of naked African women."
THANKS, MARZ, for bringing to our attention that picture on the wall behind Quanah's photo. It was his most cherished possession.
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Massive displacement of human beings.
The Indian Removal Act (which most of us have heard about but need to renew our knowledge now and then)"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2959.html - one provision:
"In 1823 the Supreme Court handed down a decision which stated that Indians could occupy lands within the United States, but could not hold title to those lands. This was because their "right of occupancy" was subordinate to the United States' "right of discovery." In response to the great threat this posed, the Creeks, Cherokee, and Chicasaw instituted policies of restricting land sales to the government. They wanted to protect what remained of their land before it was too late."
Another:
"In 1830, just a year after taking office, Jackson pushed a new piece of legislation called the "Indian Removal Act" through both houses of Congress. It gave the president power to negotiate removal treaties with Indian tribes living east of the Mississippi. Under these treaties, the Indians were to give up their lands east of the Mississippi in exchange for lands to the west. Those wishing to remain in the east would become citizens of their home state. This act affected not only the southeastern nations, but many others further north. The removal was supposed to be voluntary and peaceful, and it was that way for the tribes that agreed to the conditions. But the southeastern nations resisted, and Jackson forced them to leave.
Jackson's attitude toward Native Americans was paternalistic and patronizing -- he described them as children in need of guidance. and believed the removal policy was beneficial to the Indians. Most white Americans thought that the United States would never extend beyond the Mississippi. Removal would save Indian people from the depredations of whites, and would resettle them in an area where they could govern themselves in peace. But some Americans saw this as an excuse for a brutal and inhumane course of action, and protested loudly against removal."
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I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with all of the violence, in the last two books I have read. So, I am taking a break for a couple of days, with some light reading. I did watch a western movies earlier today, which was supposed to be about the same period in history, as our book. However, it was about many tribes, but not Comanches. It was also the story of Custer's last stand. The movie's name is: "Son of the Morning Star".
Sheila
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The violence on the frontier, as described in the book, was overwhelming. That's the way it was. So how should one read such a statement as this from the book (p207) about the young Quanah:
'this ambitious Comanche boy who rode free on the western plains, stealing horses and taking scalps'
It seems to me it reflects the author's feeling after reading in his sources that Quanah bragged about knowing 'a ranch where he could steal nineteen comparable horses in a few hours,' to replace the ones his bride had cost him. (p206)
Thanks, Barb, for the links to the Chronicles of Oklahoma, and the Parker Family Reunion. The 'family' picture certainly has a lot of faces that show a resemblence to Cynthia Ann.
But, what to make of the family picture in the book, taken in 1908? It says, under the picture, that Quanah had seven wives and twenty-three children during the reservation period. Not one looks like Cynthia.
The Chronicles have Cynthia leaving behind 'the humdrum life of the civilized world' when she was captured. Why would she want to retuern to that?
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I admired Cynthia Ann Parker when, despite her years in the wilderness, she was able to put her skills to work in ‘civilization’. She was an expert tanner and could make ropes and whips, all of which were valuable skills. An amazingly strong, capable, steadfast woman.
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Babi, do you think that all that hard work accounted for Cynthia's massive arms and hands - which made her look more like an Indian squaw? She probably would have had to picth in had she survived at Fork Parker, but the Comanches had the women do most of the grunt work, while they rode, rustled and hunted.
I had missed the fact that she had died from self-inflicted starvation, though I'm not surprised. I see in our book that "she died of influenza, complicated by self-starvation." Also read that "she was buried three times in three cemeteries" before her final resting place. Wonder what that was about.
Here's an interesting line in same chapter...relationg to the title...
"A white woman by birth... a relic of old Comancheria, of the fading empire of high grass and fat summer moons."
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"5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life."
I meant to address the Indian Removal Act question first, but Ella found this site on Kit Carson and asked to post it, so first things first...she did say "please."
(http://www.nmcn.org/heritage/civil_war/sketches/kitcarson.jpg)
Christopher "Kit" Carson
Kit Carson was born in Kentucky on Christmas Eve, 1809 and died in Colorado in 1868. His birth place was built of hand hewed logs on a hill in a modest wooded area. His father's name was Linsay Carson and his mother's name was Rebecca Robinson. (Marion Estergreen, THE REAL KIT CARSON, EL CREPUSCULO, 1955, pp. 1-2.)
Kit Carson had many Scandinavian Traits: He was short, of solid stature with a steadfast character, undefeatable, resolute, and loyal. He weighed about 115 pounds; he he was 5'8" tall with gray blue eyes and light sandy hair. His voice was said to be "as soft and gentle as a women's."
In all things he was temperate even though he smoked, but he abstained from liquor. Kit Carson holds a unique place in history; yet, a fitting characterization of him is difficult. "He was not a great man, nor a brilliant man but a great character," says Sabin.
This plain, modest and unlettered man had native qualities which those who knew him equaled the best they found in other men.
Carson played a role in opening the West and making it safe for the settlers. Many historians say Kit was illiterate; some even say he couldn't write his own name.
Kit Carson showed his loyalty to his home and kindness to the Indians who called him "Father Kit."
Kit Carson aided in organizing the first New Mexico volunteer infantry of which he was commisioned Lieutenant-Colonel on July 25,1861 and then Colonel on September 20, 1861. He took part in the Battle of Valverde on February 21, 1862, which took place in New Mexico during the Civil War.
He fought against the Mescalero Apaches and the Navajos. In 1864, he fought against the Kiowas and Comanches. On March 13, 1865, he was promoted to Brigadier- General of the New Mexico Civil War volunteers "for gallantry in the Battle of Valverde and for distinguished services in New Mexico. from this site: http://www.nmcn.org/heritage/civil_war/links/index.html
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"5. What weapon did Kit Carson bring to the battles he fought and how did this weapon save his life."
I remember his name, but not much else about Kit Carson. I remember cowboys and soldiers fighting Indians. I remember Kit Carson as one of the cowboys - in his buckskins - not a soldier. From reading this chapter in the book, it seems he was a soldier under the command of BG James Carleton who ordered Carson to go on a "punitive expedition" into the western part of Commancheria, Llano Estcadio, where white men had not ever dared to go. Carson had been a successful Indian fighter, was not afraid. (I think I read that he also had several Indian wives too.) He made his way to huge camp where the Comanches were wintering...attacked, pulled back when he saw they were outnumbered. They would not have survived but they had these little howitzers with them that helped them to avoid being massacred.
How do you remember him - a soldier or an Indian fighting cowboy - with several Indian wives and children? A simple man, from all accounts, and yet a complicated one.
I'm learning so much about the West during the Civil War. Union Indians, Confederate Indians with slaves. Did the Indians fight one another, or did they fight along side the Armies?
There's reference to Fort Murrah on p.213. Is there an association with the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City...does anyone know?
This brings us back to Oklahoma...and the Indian Removal Act...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 22-28 ~ Chapters 19-22
1. What was the general military situation as it existed in the Texas Panhandle in the spring of 1875? What was General Sheridan's plan for final victory on the Southern Plains?
2. What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?
3. What was the Comanche situation in the spring of 1876? What options did Quanah have left? Were you surprised at his decision to surrender by leading his people into the reservation? What reception did the band receive from General Mackenzie when they arrived at Fort Still?
4. How did Quanah measure up as the primary Comanche leader in the protection of Comanche interests in negotiations with the United States, particularly in connection with the forced sale of Indian land under the Dawes Act?
5. How did Quanah react toward new technology coming into general use in the early years of the 20th Century? What misuse of technology almost resulted in Quanah’s death? Discuss some of the incidents growing out of Quanah’s relationship with Theodore Roosevelt
.
6. Discuss Quanah’s role in the establishment of the Native American Church. In Quanah’s words, how did he describe the difference between main stream Christian and Native American worship?
7. Contrast Quanah’s reservation career with that of Setting Bull, who was also a Fort Still resident.
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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The Murrah Building in Oklahoma City was named for Alfred P. Murrah, who was born in Oklahoma in 1904.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_P._Murrah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_P._Murrah)
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THERE YOU ARE, CALLIE!
I was just going to "holler" for you! Thanks for answering JOANP's question.
And a big THANK YOU to Joan for putting on Carson's photo. He looks like an Indians himself, a big hero, one of the "most storied figures in the American West." I remember him from my youth.
He was responsible for the first howitzers in the battle for the west.
I don't have much time today to review the questions or the book, but remembering that JONATHAN mentioned this movie, THE SEARCHERS, enjoy this brief YOUTUBE remiscence of the way it was. JOHN WAYNE, WARD BOND - remember all those guys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI2AZb04HAc
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Ella, :D You would have had to "holler loud". I'm looking after grandchildren this weekend - in their home. They were in school and had after-school athletics today so I had some computer time.
I brought the non-fiction "The Captured" and the novel "Ride The Wind" with me.
As soon as I read the blurb on the back cover of RTW, I put it right back in my tote bag. (Quoting) "The astonishing, beautifully written epic story of a white woman who became a Comanche, of Indians free in spirit, at one with the land, driven by fate to (fancy title letters here) Ride The Wind." (End quote) It's just a "paperback romance" type of story - and I'm not interested in imaginary conversations between the captives and their captors!
However, "The Captured" is written by Scott Zesch, a relative of Adolph Korn who became a Comanche warrior after he was captured and fought against the "enroachers". The author discovered Korn's grave in Mason, Texas, tracked down surviving relatives, talked with Comanche elders and expanded his search to include other child captives from the region.
The book has a big picture section which includes actual photos of a Comanche camp in the 1870's.
I will definitely read this one.
I won't have time to do any more research for links until I'm back at my own computer next Tuesday.
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I've been sort of sidetracked trying to figure out the importance of the alternate story of the Battle of the Pease river where Sol Ross in Dec 1860 captured Cynthia Ann and killed Peta Nokona. According to this Ranger account Quanah and Peanuts escaped at that time and Ranger Captain Sul Ross Killed Peta Nocona after a battle and chase. In the alternate (Indian) account described in the 1934 Chronicles of Oklahoma the engagement was much less than a battle, much more a massacre of women since in this account the camp under attack was not a regular Comanche village but a hunting camp occupied only by women and Mexican slaves. Peta Nokona, Quanah, Peanuts and no actual warriors were present. The Battle causalities were woman plus a single Mexican man.
The account does not tell what happened to Peta Nokona who certainly disappeared about this time as there is apparently no report of him after this event. Curiously the Comanche don't seem to have actively supported this story either either because of their the timidity as a conquered people reluctant to annoy their jailers, or as Quanah put it to one of his daughters, "Out of respect to the family of General Ross, do not deny that he killed Peta Nokoni." If he felt that it was any credit to him to have killed my father, let his people continue to believe that he did so.
I would note that the fact that the woman were prominently mentioned in the Ranger's account, and the fact of the loaded pack mules loaded with newly dried meat lends an iota of support to the alternate account. But also the fact that Peta Nocona never appeared again in any later historical account supports the Ranger story. We will never know more, but for me the main historical significance of this battle was that for better or the worst, Cynthia Ann was captured and returned to her estranged family. An unhappy ending, yes but any other likely ending would have been equally sad.
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Oh, definitely, JOANP. Hard physical labor will do that. I've got large knuckles just from
lifting heavy medical record files for years.
What struck me especially about Kit Carson that while the officers were writing all these
exaggerated..or false...reports about their battles, Carson was always wholly truthful about
them. He felt no need to lie to make himself look better. That speaks of a man self-confident
and at peace with his actions, to my mind.
I thought McKenzie was resonsible for the howitzers, tho'. Carson was the scout/guide/Indian
fighter.
Quanah Parker. Again, we find a remarkable person, even as a boy of twelve. With his flight with his brother, he accomplished what few Comanches could have done, and probably no white man. And he lied about the ’battle’ of Pease River, just as the whites did, but for different reasons. He wanted to protect his Father’s reputation as a great war chief.
I noticed another subtle dig from Gwynne in reference to Quanah. Describing the tall, husky, Quanah, he states that he “could have served as a model of how white people thought a noble savage ought to look, not the least because he looked a bit like them” I am impressed
at how well Gwynne makes clear the ignorance and greed of the white man, without in the least
downplaying the savagery of the Indians. Good and bad, beauty and warts, on both sides.
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Heroes to some are not always heroes to others. Andrew Jackson was responsible for the Trail of Tears - the removal of the long-peaceful and settled Cherokees from the Appalachian regions of GA, TN, and NC to Oklahoma, with many dying along the way. This was done so the white settlers could have the fertile land of the Cherokees, plus the fact that gold had been discovered in the north GA mountains. Jackson is no hero to the Cherokees.
Kit Carson was responsible for the seige of the Navajo in Canyon de Chelly in AZ, their eventual defeat, and removal to Bosque del Apache in New Mexico - a barren, infertile area totally unsuited to their culture. Carson is no hero to the Navajo.
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Callie, thank you for the article on Alfred P. Murrah, a different Murrah... (I understand the noise level when babysitting grandchildren.) ;D
I find comments that there was a connection between Judge Alfred Murrah of Oklahoma and the Murrahs of Texas but can't find factual information. Pendleton Murrah was the Confederate governor of Texas...elected in 1863. Illegitmate, kept the Murrah family name. Here's his story - http://hubpages.com/hub/Governor-Pendleton-Murrah-of-Texas
From this article -
"He [Murrah] believed in the Confederate cause (States Rights and de-centralized authority) and fought for those beliefs. Had the Confederate States of America maintianed its integrity, his policies would have been viewed as foundational in preserving the rights of the States in the State Courts and policies existing in Texas."
A bit of irony - Timothy McVeigh grew up in a small town named Pendleton - but no, that's not the connection I'm looking for.
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Harold...I thought for sure that Peta Naconi had stayed behind with his wife at Pease River, as he usually did, knowing that there was great interest in retaking her. Wasn't there a young boy who got away and reported this? Was there something that made you think he got away? Was his body ever reclaimed? I thought Cunthia Ann was grieving because she knew he was dead.
Edit - I just found this -
"Despite Ross's claim that Nocona was killed at Pease River, his son insisted he was not present, and died several years later. This claim is supported by Texas historian John Henry Brown. Brown had already disputed the identity of the chief killed at Mule Creek, before Quanah came onto the reservation, stating he was told the name of the man killed at Pease River was Mo-he-ew, not Peta Nocona. Quanah then wrote an affidavit disputing his father's death: "….while I was too young to remember the chief it is likely that Brown was correct…." [1]Wikipedia
MaryZ - your post got me thinking about Kit Carson's Indian wives...and their tribes. I found this:
"Carson's first wife, Waa-Nibe, an Arapaho, died in 1838, after the couple had been together only three years. His second wife, Making-Out-Road, was a formidable Cheyenne woman who divorced him after fourteen months. Three years later, in 1843, Carson married Josefa Jaramillo, the fourteen-year-old daughter of a prominent Taos family. Seven of their children survived, and the couple also adopted several Indian children in the course of their long marriage that ended when Josefa died after the birth of her seventh baby.
Viewing Kit Carson's career as a husband and father sheds new light on the life choices he made. The changing economy of the 1840s made it increasingly difficult for a trapper and scout to support a growing family. Carson's years as an Indian agent in the 1850s provided him stability although he was never able to spend as much time with his family as any of them would have liked and he was never able to bring in a comfortable income."
I find him difficult to understand, yet life on the Great Plains is also beyond my comprehension - or imagination.
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There's a question in the heading about the title of Chapter Fifteen - "Peace and Other Horrors."
This chapter refers to the "collapse of the Conferacy and the chaos on the frontier a the end of the Civil War. Peace meant demilitarizing the South - it also meant Congress was unable or at least not inclined to spend money on keeping order in the west. The prevailing belief was that the Comanche problem would be solved if they were just "treated properly."
That meant more treaties. We've seen how they worked. This was the very saddest chapter in the book - the last treaty ever to be signed - in 1867. Estimated 4000 Indians in attendance...peace pipes, promises made...and in exchange the Indians were to redide on the lands provided to them, no more hostility.
When the Indians got up to speak, my tears came...pgs. 226 - 228. The Indians knew what this meant. Why did they sign the treaty? Was it because they had no choice? Did you notice that Quanah and his tribe, the Quahadis were not in attendance?
At this point, I'm resigned to the fact that nothing could have been done - exceptmaybe to grant the Indians more, much more land on the Great Plains in that Treaty. What do you think?
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OH! Thank you all for posting, so much fun, so gratifying that there are people who still enjoy reading history, reading good history and debating the issues. Because I think that they need to be debated, the world is still (and will forever be I think) divided between those that have, those who do not; those who are fanatical about religion or money or race, and those who are passive and let lives alone.
But I don't think any of us can think of a good solution for the native Americans once the continent was discovered and explored!
It was the last frontier for the white man to settle! He needed land and he was mightier than the Indian.
JOANP, I will read those pages when I get back today from some errands, I wonder if I will so affected! And I must review what effect the end of the Confederacy had on the Comanches. As I remember from the first reading, all these young soldiers, who liked the adventure of war, came out west to fight the Indians, but must review
Thanks for more information about Kit Carson and his Indian wives, his life among the Indians.
There are so many great stories in this book, so many men that deserve respect and many who do not. MARYZ pointed this out to us in her post! Thanks MARY, for those comments. So true.
Glad you heard me hollering, CALLLIE, stay home and let us hear from you!
I'll be back later after I have run around, it is still cold outside in Ohio, when, Dear Lord, will you send us some sign of spring?
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'There are so many great stories in this book.'You'r right, Ella. What a panoramic narrative of those stormy years in Texas. What a lot of incidents the author had to draw on for his history. What a lot of differing accounts to consider. Gwynne almost certainly read the Chronicles of Oklahoma.
'Good and bad, beauty and warts, on both sides...' well put, Babi.
I've been hoping someone would find an answer to the meaning in Peace, and Other Horrors. That's probably the most thought-provoking of all the chapter headings. They are all, no doubt, designed to provoke speculation about the chapter contents. This one is different. It seems to have some meaning hidden in it. I finally decided that 'peace' was intended to be seen as the first horror. For the Comanches. The thought of a 'peaceful' life on the Reservation horrified them.
Chief Satanta had this to say:
This building homes for us is all nonsense. We don't want you to build any for us. We would all die....I want all my land even from the Arkansas south to the Red River. My country is small enough already. If you build us houses, the land will be smaller. Why do you insist on this?
The aging chief, Ten Bears, was even more disconsolate:
You have said that you want to put us on a reservation, to build us houses and make us medicine lodges. I do not want them. I was born under the prairie, where the wind blew free and there was nothing to break the light of the sun. I was born where there were no enclosures and everything drew a free breath. I want to die there and not within walls. I know every stream and wood between the Rio Grande and the Arkansas. I have hunted and lived over that country. I live like my fathers before me and like them I lived happily.
Tragically, the other horrors include some inflicted on other Indians and Whites by these same Comanches.
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What are we to understand by 'medicine lodge' as spoken by the chief? A church? Was he being sarcastic?
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Jonathan, that Peace treaty certainly was a horror for the Indian Tribes, wasn't it? And don't forget they were illiterate - did not understand the words of the document on which they put their marks of agreement. But they did understand what they were giving up by signing it. Surely the saddest chapter of the book. Anything else will be anticlimactic.
Medicine Lodge..pn p. 224 -
"The conference that spawned it [the treaty] took place in October 1867 at a compound where the Kiowas held medicine dances about sevety five miles southwest ofthe present site of Wichita, Kansas."
"The major religious ceremony, the Medicine Dance (Midewiwin in Ojibwa) was held only once or twice a year. The curative function of the Midewiwin was based primarily on the supernatural, but included traditional medical treatment and education in traditional medicines. It is an exceedingly complex series of rituals and-out of respect for its religious importance and intricacy-can only be sketched here."http://www.mpm.edu/wirp/ICW-45.html
Don't you wonder how this site of obvious spiritual signicance to the Indians was chosen to force the Indians into signing their life away?
Here's more on that Treaty...the answer seems to be that the Indians themselves chose the spot - Medicine Lodge Treaty of 1867 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_Lodge_Treaty)
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I made an error (imagine that?!?! ) The Navajo were driven to Bosque Redondo (http://www.nmmonuments.org/inst.php?inst=8).
[ Bosque del Apache (http://www.stateparks.com/bosque_del_apache.html) is a New Mexico state park and wildlife reserve. ]
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It is very sad! What else is there to say? Our history is full of such horrors, e.g. slavery.
Did you note that Quanah was at Medicine Lodge; and why he should have been there is not known (pg.229).
"I went and heard it. There were many soldiers there. The council was an unusual one, a great many rows. The soldier chief said 'Here are two propositions. You can live on the Arkansas and fight - or move down to the Wichita Mountains and I will help you. But you must remember one thing and hold fast to it and that is you must stop going on the warpath."
Gwynne tells us that Medicine Lodge and all the other betrayals of the Indians was due to the Office of Indian Affairs, one of the most "corrupt, venal and incompetent government agencies in American history."
Well, that is saying a lot isn't it? Let's not try to top it!!
I attempted to find out more about the Office of Indian Affairs, but was not very successful. Are we too ashamed of it? Gwynne doesn't give much of a history of it, or else I can't find it, and the web doesn't have much about it either.
There is this: http://www.bia.gov/WhoWeAre/BIA/index.htm
HOWEVER, TO GET BACK TO THE BOOK:
In 1869 Congress did away with it, and in its place put the INDIAN BUREAU composed of gentle, peace-loving Quakers."
And what success would the Quakers have to effect a peace between the Comanche warriors and the white warriors?
(P.S. Kit Carson barely survivedthe Battle of Adobe Walls, one of the largest battles ever fought on the Great Plains. What saved him was dragging the lethal little howitzers to the top of a sand hill, which badly frightened the Indians.) pg.219
See this explanation of a howitzer: http://visual.merriam-webster.com/images/society/weapons/modern-howitzer.jpg
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Our book is destroying many of my life long assumptions. It says that following the Civil War, there was no militia in Texas. Texas was a Southern State, and there was some fear, of having a military presence there. I am surprised to learn that decisions were made by people in the East, who knew nothing about the Indian situation. I had always assumed that Indian Agents were experienced and knowledgeable about the different tribes.
I am also surprised at how many different tribes there were. I knew there were Arapahoe, Nez Perz, Commanche, Apache, Navaho, etc. But, I had no idea how many other tribes were a part of this country. I find it interesting that some of the tribes adjusted to farming, and a non nomadic way of life.
I often wonder why the Euro Americans believed that we were superior to the American Indian, and the African Americans? Both had a culture, which we seem never to have put a value on.
Sheila
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I don't believe the chief was being sarcastic in his reference to a medicine lodge, JONATHAN. The medicine lodge was a place for
teaching, healing, and various ceremonies. I found this, which may
be how the Indians saw the events taking place.
Wiikwandiwin ([Seasonal] Ceremonial Feast)—performed four times per year, once per season. The Wiikwandiwin is begun with a review of the past events, hope for a good future, a prayer and then the smoking of the pipe ..." These ceremonies are held in mid-winter and mid-summer in order to bring together peoples various medicines and combine their healing powers for revitalization
I had always assumed that Indian Agents were experienced and
knowledgeable about the different tribes.
Unfortunately, SHEILA, I think the agents were often political
appointments, and were about as suited to the posts as such appoint-
ments generally are. Some Indian agents were quite sincere in their
desire to do a good job, but even so I believe most had little
understanding of the Indian culture and outlook.
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At the 1867 peace talks Chief Ten Bears quite clearly said, I do not want the medicine lodges that you want to make for us. He must have been thinking of the missions that had been planted among them by zealous Christians.
It seems the term 'medicine' had been adopted by Indians. But it's a white man's concept, isn't it? It's use by the Indians seems like an attempt to understand or adapt something useful - to acquire additional power. Puha, they called it.
On the other hand, Whites have certainly recognized an alternative medicine in the Indian methods of diagnosis and prescription. Life is a struggle for all of us. It's traditional that we grade each others medicines. That's where the superiority factor comes in.
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Joan, the Religious and Ceremonial Life link was very informative. I would like to learn more of that aspect of Indian life.
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I often wonder why the Euro Americans believed that we were superior to the American Indian, and the African Americans. Both had a culture, which we seem never to have put a value on: Sheila
I think just about every culture world wide have pretty well convinced themselves that their particular people were special. Among the hundreds, probably thousands American Indian tribes, the meaning of the word they called themselves in their own language seems most always to convey idea that they were the very special people favored by the Gods. Every tribe seemed to picture themselves as a very special people favored by god. And isn’t this the same mentality of the European settlers that gave them their claim to all the Indian land?
Also regarding the discussion thread on the Medicine Lodge. Among the plains buffalo tribes the ideal of the Medicine Lodge seems to me to have been as special hut or other structure that was a special place where men assembled particularly to prepare themselves mentally and spiritually for war. .The Caddo farmers in East Texas too built a special grass hut for this same purpose for each war sortie. When the war party returned it was burned. Also The Pueblo tribes in New Mexico prepared permanent circular underground excavations called Kivas. They were some 20 feet deep where Men met for spiritual preparation for their daily life, war or whatever.
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Jonathan: George Catlin gives the definition of Medicine as used by the Indians as “Magic.” They do not know details about a thing or event it just happened or it exists; as if by magic
Joan P and all: For me Peta Nokona either was killed at the Pease River engagement or else he died by some other cause about that time. This could have been in some other unrecorded encounter or an accident or sudden fatal sickness. For me this seems unlikely because for a man of Peta Nokona’s stature it would seem some account of the event would survive. Yet he is never heard of again after Pease River.
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"I think just about every culture world wide have pretty well convinced themselves that their particular people were special". - Harold
I agree, we could talk about superiority forever couldn't we? Does might make right?
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You must click upon this site and be sure to listen to the videos. The modern Comanche is remembering their history, which is wonderful, really. Hunting and wars is what they talk about. But no farms, no art, not much else. Now that they have no enemies, they are weak. No buffalo, they depend upon the government.
http://www.comanchenation.com/
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Considering all that was said about the militia at home during the civil war, and how inferior they were to the Comanche fighters, I was amused to read that “One regiment, embarking on an Indian pursuit, decided instead to head for another fort and play poker.” On the whole, I think that was very sensible of them. ;)
The description of the gathering at Medicine Creek is fascinating, and so vivid it is easy to picture it. How could anything be more impressive that the magnificent horsemanship of those thousands of Comanche, approaching in the form of a circling wheel in a spectacular feat of coordination. It is beyond my understanding how the officials there could witness so impressive a performance and still not grasp that these people were neither stupid nor childlike. Then I read the excerpts from the speeches made there by the Indian chiefs, and it is all terribly beautiful and terribly sad.
We're getting back to MacKenzie..and Custer...now. I already knew that Custer had more flare than sense, but that didn’t begin to express it. “Libidinous.” “Alcoholic” Ranked 34th in a class of 34 at West Point, with a record of 726 demerits! How does a man like this get to be an officer. Oh, yes, I know…he was courageous in battle and was promoted in the field. But
the line between courageous and foolhardy is a narrow one, and is especially dangerous in a man who has the responsibility for other lives
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'Hunting and wars is what they talk about.'
And isn't that what Gwynne's book is all about? About the most amazing warrior tribe, with a very simple culture. The first paragraph of Chapter 18 is a good description of its short history:
But something even worse than No-Finger Chief (Mackenzie) haunted the Comanche nation in the cruel spring of 1874. They were losing their identity. In the long years of their ascendancy they had always been a people apart, fiercely independent, arrogantly certain that their pragmatic, stripped-down spartan ethic was the best way to live. Unlike the Romans, who had borrowed everything from clothing to art, food, and religion from cultures aroung them, the Commanches were aggressively parochial. They were the world's best horsemen and the unchallenged military masters of the south plains. They did not elaborate religious rituals or complex social hierarchies. They kept their own counsel.
How piteful to hear about them at the end of the chapter, relying on Isa-tai's magic to win them a battle with the hide men. By then there wasn't much to choose between hide men and Comanches:
The hide men were on the whole, a nasty lot. They were violent, alcoholic, illiterate, unkempt men who wore their hair long and never bathed.
(the Comanches) are a lazy, dirty, lousy, deceitful, race. True manhood is unknown, and they hold their women in abject slavery.p 261
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>(the Comanches) are a lazy, dirty, lousy, deceitful, race. True manhood is unknown, and they hold their women in abject slavery.p 261
I don't think I could ever characterize the Comanche as lazy but the words dirty and lousy are certainly applicable..Also their women certainly were subject of a lifetime of hard labor. But practice of rape and pillager and torture in its vilest forms cannot easily be over looked. But further discussions on this point are best left til the end of next week as we conclude this discussion.
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Seems many cultures hold their women in abject slavery including the ancient Greeks - difference we have wrapped them up in the Golden foil of Myth, and god like heroism. Closer to our lifetime the filth and lice seem to be fresh in the collective memory.
A link to: Comanche Nation OK. (http://www.comanchenation.com/) official website.
Amazon.com sells a book on the Comanche (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555467024/aguidetokipaw) written by Willard H. Rollings, who was also a spokesman for water rights in New Mexico. He died a couple of years ago.
And then nearly every child growing up in Texas has this story read to them, The Legend Of The Bluebonnet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0808530178/nativelangu01-20) a Comanche myth about our much loved State Flower.
A link to Youtube where a Grandmother reads to her two grand-daughters the The Legend Of The Bluebonnet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-SbRxv1VbM)
And here is a link explaining how one small town in Texas handled the fears of children when they saw the Comanche fires on the hillsides while the leader of the community were negotiating a Peace Treaty with the Comanche Easter Fires (http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/lke02)
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I have two other books on the Comanche. The first is The Comanches- Lords of the South Plains. By Ernest Wallace & E. Adamson Hoebel Published by the University of Oklahoma Press Norman Ok, 1986. The second is Los Comanches, The Horse People.1751 - 1845 . By Stanley Noyes, 1993, apparently self published by the author. I got both of them through my work at the I.T.C.
I remember reading the first book some 15 years ago. As I remember it, it covered the general history from the 18th century when the Comanche first came to the attention of the Spanish in New Mexico and Texas. I think our present book is written in a more interesting manner and therefore it is easier to understand. I don't remember reading the second title but I remember wondering why the author terminated his account at such an early date. I note today that the pristine new condition of the paperback seems to confirm the fact that I did not spend much time reading it.
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here you go - these books appear to still be available The Comanches- Lords of the South Plains (http://www.amazon.com/Comanches-Plains-Civilization-American-Indian/dp/0806120401/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298352018&sr=8-1)
Los Comanches, The Horse People.1751 - 1845 (http://www.amazon.com/Los-Comanches-Horse-People-1751-1845/dp/0826315488/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298352184&sr=8-1)
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Our book is destroying many of my life long assumptions. It says that following the Civil War, there was no militia in Texas. Texas was a Southern State, and there was some fear, of having a military presence there. I am surprised to learn that decisions were made by people in the East, who knew nothing about the Indian situation. I had always assumed that Indian Agents were experienced and knowledgeable about the different tribes.
I am also surprised at how many different tribes there were. I knew there were Arapahoe, Nez Perz, Commanche, Apache, Navaho, etc. But, I had no idea how many other tribes were a part of this country. I find it interesting that some of the tribes adjusted to farming, and a non nomadic way of life.
I often wonder why the Euro Americans believed that we were superior to the American Indian, and the African Americans? Both had a culture, which we seem never to have put a value on.
Sheila
I feel the same way, Sheila. Whites always assume they are superior. Where does that come from? Even now, as our "melting pot" becomes less and less Caucasian, we still treat minorities as inferior. Is this a defense mechanism?
If the settlers never pushed into Comancheria, could the Comanche had lived peacefully in their own territory? They were warriors - all they knew was war. Could they have left the whites alone and become neighbors? Manifest Destiny prevented that. Just think, our United States could have had a western border at the plains and an Indian "country" would spread to the Pacific.
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... It hadn’t really struck me, until now, that by 1872 the Plains were no longer a trackless, unknown territory. Besides wagon trains and trail herds, the county was now spanned by railroads and telegraph lines. Civilization has encroached. Comancheria is greatly reduced, and the numbers of the Comanche are even more greatly reduced. It’s only a matter of time, now.
The band and clan distinctions are disappearing. “Most of the Arapahos had given up…. The Cheyennes were confused and leaderless…. The Kiowas were riven by political quarrels….Just a few thousand Comanche who were watching their old world die and losing their identity in the process.”
You know, that’s what I saw in the eyes of those braves in the photographs. The hopeless look of people who had lost their identity. I couldn’t quite put my finger on what I saw there, until now.
“Cheating the Indians was always a good business.” And when they weren’t being cheated out of greed, they were suffering due to stupidity. (Oh, yeah, we’ve got a few thousand people coming. We really do need some food and supplies, don’t we? Oops! )
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Thank you, BARBARA, for the recommendations, but I don't believe the Comanches are in danger of being lost to history. This book was just published and will be read for some time in the future; history is never dead.
Chapter 18 was very sad to read, the end of an era, the buffalo gone, even the medicine man and the raids were not successful. It all ended in humiliation; Quanah was wounded.
1874, President Grant gave Sherman permission to put the agencies and reservations under military rule. The five years of Quaker authority, the hope for peace, was over.
"to subdue all Indians who offered resistance to constituted authority." - President Grant
As SHEILA and ABERLAINE both said all decisions regarding Indians were made in the East; few knowledgeable agents of Indian culture were consulted.
We begin the last few chapters of the book today, beginning with Chapter Nineteen, THE RED RIVER WAR.
The first sentence says "by the late summer of 1874 there were only three thousand Comanches left in the world."
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Here's a tidbit about Quanah Parker Burgess who is the great grandson of Quanah Parker.http://quanahburgess.tripod.com/ (http://quanahburgess.tripod.com/)
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"Today, the Comanche Nation consists of 14,105 members (2008 enrollment figures),[1] about half of whom live in Oklahoma (centered at Lawton). The remainder are concentrated in Texas, California, and New Mexico. The Comanche speak the Comanche language, a Numic language of the Uto-Aztecan family, sometimes classified as a Shoshone dialect." - Wikipedia
CALLIE - from Oklahoma - are you around? Yoo-hoo! Do you know where the reservation at Lawton is?
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Did we know that the Comanches were the first Code Talkers?? Read on this page toward bottom.
http://www.comanchenation.com/CIVA/index.html (http://www.comanchenation.com/CIVA/index.html)
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No, I didn't Ann! Thanks for that, I'll post a bit of it here:
"The Comanches also had the first military trained Code Talkers. Seventeen Nation members helped develop a Code for radio communications used in the European Theater of operations. Fourteen of the Code Talkers landed on Normandy Beach on D-Day, June 6, 1944, as members of the 4th Infantry Division, and earned five Battle Stars fighting the German Army - their code was never broken."
NEW QUESTIONS FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION IN THIS FINAL WEEK ARE IN THE HEADING!!!
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Over the years I have read a bit, quite a bit of history of the Civil War, and the names of Grant, Sherman and Sheridan are familiar in that context; but in this book I have had to place them in context with such names as Quanah, Shaking Hand, Wild Horse and Hears The Sunrise.
Good for the mind, so to speak?
Chapter Nineteen is almost as sad as the previous ones. Can you imagine a pile of 1000 dead horses which marked the end of the Indian way of life - the horse, their means of survivial. The pile of bones became over the years a navigational landmark; how awful for the Indians to see that!
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Wow thanks for the link Ann to the art of Quanah Parker Burgess
Ella I find when I read a book that grabs me that I follow it up with others to deepen my experience and so I am grateful that Harold shared the titles he read and with Spring happening here the Bluebonnet season is knocking on our door so that the Comanche children's tale is front and center in schools, libraries and bookstores - also, many of us are making plans to attend the annual Easter Fires in Fredericksburg - Ella they were not offered to take away from this wonderful book but to let folks know how much a part of our lives the influence is from the Comanche.
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More places to visit, BARBARA! Click here for museums and other places to see. Oh, I wish was in Texas, we are iced in today in Ohio.
Be sure to scroll down on this site to see the Palo Duro Canyon - which was sthe Quahadis' sanctuary for years and is now a state park.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.forttumbleweed.net/lighthouse_paloDuroCanyon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.forttumbleweed.net/amarillo.html&h=449&w=411&sz=174&tbnid=_3TtO6aqKM6dKM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPalo%2BDuro%2BCanyon&zoom=1&q=Palo+Duro+Canyon&hl=en&usg=__RC0ja-qqSDMXDRduKZieOAP3Ljc=&sa=X&ei=yNZjTYaOBojogQe28LmxAg&ved=0CEMQ9QEwBQ
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' to let folks know how much a part of our lives the influence is from the Comanche.'
Thanks, Barb, for the information about the Easter Fires at Fredericksburg. It does suggest that the Comanches may have left a legacy that is more than the hunting and fighting that we are hearing about in the book.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome to join in.
Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 22-28 ~ Chapters 19-22
1. What was the general military situation as it existed in the Texas Panhandle in the spring of 1875? What was General Sheridan's plan for final victory on the Southern Plains?
2. What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?
3. What was the Comanche situation in the spring of 1876? What options did Quanah have left? Were you surprised at his decision to surrender by leading his people into the reservation? What reception did the band receive from General Mackenzie when they arrived at Fort Sill?
4. How did Quanah measure up as the primary Comanche leader in the protection of Comanche interests in negotiations with the United States, particularly in connection with the forced sale of Indian land under the Dawes Act?
5. How did Quanah react toward new technology coming into general use in the early years of the 20th Century? What misuse of technology almost resulted in Quanah’s death? Discuss some of the incidents growing out of Quanah’s relationship with Theodore Roosevelt
.
6. Discuss Quanah’s role in the establishment of the Native American Church. In Quanah’s words, how did he describe the difference between main stream Christian and Native American worship?
7. Contrast Quanah’s reservation career with that of Sitting Bull, who was also a Fort Sill resident.
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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Harald, your comment about Stanley Noyes sent me searching. There is very little out there, but he did publish several books. Two are co-authored. Three of the books listed are poetry. Mr. Noyes must be a very private person. Wikipedia doesn't list him and information about his books are mimimal. Here is what Timberline Press says about him: Stanley Noyes -- poet, novelist, and historian -- lives in Santa Fe, NM. His history of the Comanches, Los Comanches, The Horse People, 17512-1845, is a sensitive portrait of those people. He has written two novels and five collections of poetry. Timberline published his Annus Mirabilis: A Peripatetic Calendar and Alles Kaputt. The latter was selected one of the top ten books of 2007 by the Kansas City Star.
http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL226643A/Stanley_Noyes
I also found this. A picture of the elusive Mr. Noyes. Apparently he has an audio out of one of the poetry books.
http://theshop.free-jazz.net/stanley-noyes-reads-vox-audio/shop/audio-poetry/
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Hi, Ella. I'm here - still getting things organized around my house.
I'm not sure there is such a thing as a Comanche Reservation any more. The Comanche Nation headquarters are in Lawton. You provided a link for that several messages back - as did I several pages back.
For more articles of interest, do a "Search All Articles" for Comanches and/or Quanah Parker in The Chronicles of Oklahoma http://digital.library.okstate.edu/chronicles/index.html
I'll be back with some specific suggestions as soon as I find that elusive Round Tuit. I haven't forgotten!
Quick correction to the Talking Point Questions: It's Fort Sill - not Still - located in Lawton and still a very active Army Base.
Also: It's Sitting Bull, not Setting.
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Thanks, CALLIE! Corrections made.
I don't know about the Comanche reservation or whatever. Something about a Comanche Complex somewhere.
I'll have to look for it again. One would think there would be something.....
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Here's a link to a map of the Indian Nations/Reservations today. The Kiowa/Comanche/Ft. Sill Comanche Nations Tribal area is the green area in the bottom left-hand corner of the state. (Put your cursor over the colors to see the various Tribal Areas. Lawton is located within this Nation - about an hour and a half from Oklahoma City.
http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations.htm
Here's a Wikipedia article that defines American Indian Reservations throughout the USA and how each is governed by a tribe. It also gives information on Life/Culture, Law Enforcement and Gaming (Casinos)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation
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Great Links - thanks Callie
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Thank you, Barb.
Ella, I just finished reading Chapter 22. In Question #7, do you perhaps mean Geronimo?
He was an Apache chief who lived and died at Ft. Sill. He is buried there.
Geronimo's story is just as fascinating as Quanah Parker's - and the Apache tribe's experiences were very different from those of the Comanche.
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The Big Pasture (page 310)
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/B/BI003.html
Teddy Roosevelt's Wolf Hunt (page 312)
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/R/RO026.html
A newspaper article about TR's visit to Texas and Oklahoma. Scroll down to the section on the right titled "Shows His Teeth" to read about the wolf hunt. Scroll on down to see pictures of the men on the hunt - including Quanah Parker.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~txhousto/Books/History.of.Houston.County.Texas.by.Aldrich/Roosevelt.pdf
I think I've found all the links I think might be of interest in these last chapters.
O.K. - one more :) Quanah Parker's house, Cache OK
http://www.preservationok.org/Quanah_Parker_Star_House.html
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Isa-tai and Quanah, the prophet and the warrior. Always a powerful
combination in stirring up revolt. It was a humiliating outcome, ELLA,
and I was astonished that Isa-tai was able to talk his way out of it
and continue to be an influential part of the leadership.
After the final defeat and the agreement to bring in his tribe, Quanah
is described as “cheerful, helpful and cooperative”.
I can’t help wondering if these are not the qualities that made his Mother so successful among the Comanche. No one can say genes don’t matter. We also see him adapting quickly to the white man’s way of ‘doing business’. What one might call pragmatic. Definitely a persuasive man, a quality he had already developed to a fine art as a leader among the Comanche.
Something that puzzled me: .… During Roosevelt’s visit in Oklahoma, Quanah was riding as part of an honor guard. Fearful that someone might try to shoot Roosevelt, as McKinley had been, Quanah carried a six-shooter. Gwynee writes, “The idea is unimaginable today.” What was unimaginable? I can’t figure out if fear of a possible assassination was unimaginable, or that Quanah would carry a six-shooter as a precaution. Neither seems strange to me. Am I missing something here? Certainly the idea that an attempt might be made to
assassinate a President governs all his security arrangements 'today'.
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Babi, I think that what would be unimaginable today would be the Secret Service permitting any private individual to carry a loaded pistol in close proximity to the President. Protecting the President is the Secret Service job, and that includes making sure that his host and other people around him are unarmed. I don't know but perhaps not local police?
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Regarding Indian reservations in Texas: All of the native Texas 18th, 19th century Texas tribes were moved to Indian Territory in the late 19th century by the U.S.. This includes the Comanche, Kiowa, and Withita who of course had an actual presence in Oklahoma. It also includes tribes such as the Caddo, Tonkawa, and Lipan that had little or no connection there.
Today we have only three Indian Reservations in Texas. All three are themselves immigrant tribes from other parts of the U.S.. They are Alabama-Coushatta, Kickapoo, and Tigua. By 1820 there were small bands of some nine prominent Indian tribes including Cherokee from the U.S. east of the Mississippi In Spanish East Texas. Of these only the Kickapoo and Alabama Coushatta remain
Some Texas Tribes just disappeared either the victims of disease or like the hundred plus independent Coahuiltecian bands survivors just assimilated into the South Texas north Mexican population.
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Frybabe recarding Stanley Noyes, I too noted his background as a poet and fiction writer. That is sort of unusual for a history project. I was not surprised by your research showing him living in Santa Fe. An even more popular spot for poets and artists would be Taos. If I was just retiring today in my early sixties, I would be tempted to resettle there myself.
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Did you note how Quanah made his decision to go to the Fort Still Reservation? True to his Indian character he went alone to the Top of mesa in quest of a vision from the Great Spirit.There in a trance he saw a wolf howled at him before running off toward the Northeast (the direction of the Fort Still reservation). Then an eagle swooped down at him several times before flying off, agan toward the Northeast. Quanah took these signs as messages from the Great Spirit that he should take hos people tho the reservation
Accordingly the tribe began a slow,deliberate journey on May 6 1875 arriving at the Fort Still Reservation on June 2nd where thy were received in a surprisingly respectful meaner by their past enemy, General Mackenzie .
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Fort Sill
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/f/fo038.html
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Oh, golly, so much to read! CALLIE, another history - 3 pages of Comanche history on that first site - the tribal map. It would take me a day, but I did note a couple of interesting items: (HAROLD PAY ATTENTION TO THIS QUOTE! AND, OF COURSE, IT'S NOT TRUE, RIGHT?)
"the Comanches were probably the most important tribe of the Great Plains. In spite of this, they have become something of a historical orphan. Texans do not like to talk about them because of the memories are painful. Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanches because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims; and others because Comanche society generally lacked the elaborate ceremony and ritual attractive to anthropologists."
And this: - "Today, many Native American casinos are used as tourist attractions, including as the basis for hotel and conference facilities, to draw visitors and revenue to reservations. Successful gaming operations on some reservations have greatly increased the economic wealth of some tribes, enabling their investment to improve infrastructure, education and health for their people"
Having traveled a great deal in my life, I have never been to a gambling casino. What have I missed?
And I would never, never go to one on an Indian reservation, such a sham, so false!
Would Quanah approve of having his braves dress up and dance around for tourists? Oh, I suppose he would. Why is it that some of us want the legend of the buffalo hunters, the fast horses, the bows and arrows to remain true to the images.
Quanah, as BABI said, was pragmatic, cheerful, gregarious. A leader. His image is on many of the sites about Indians on the web, he is remembered.
There is one instance where Quanah felt defeated; where he and a group of Comanches were allowed to go on a buffalo hunt and there were NO BUFFALO. How heartbreaking. Even typing the word "allowed" I had to choke up a bit. Tough!
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And so we come to the end of the story. It's not a happy ending, the way I see it. These fierce warriors who conquered the southern Great Plains are reduced to picking cotton to make ends meet, after being compared to the Romans as Empire managers. And now led off to Fort Sill to 'an aimless, purposeless existence.'p310
I'm struck by the signal that Quanah got from the wolf and the eagle. Wouldn't they traditionally have inspired courage and defiance? Of course things did work out well for him. With the ensuing years Quanah reached, we are told, 'the peak of his power, influence, and celebrity.' Half-breed that he was, he conquered both worlds. That was an achievment.
But the real winners? The land developers, of course.
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'because the memories are painful'
There are so many recalled in the book. The most heart-breaking one for me was Isaac Lynn's story:
'...at the house of an old man named Isaac Lynn, whose daughter and son-in-law had recently been brutally murdered by Comanches. When Goodnight entered the house, he found Lynn "sitting before a large log fire in the old-fashioned fireplace, with a long forked dogwood stick, on which was an Indian scalp, thoroughly salted. The hair was tucked inside. As he turned it carefully over the fire, the grease oozed out of it.... He looked back over his shoulder, bade me good morning, and then turned to his work of roasting the scalp. I do not think I ever saw so sad a face." Since his daughter's death he had become a collector of scalps and asked people to bring him any they had. He roasted them so they wouldn't spoil. Like so many people on the bleeding frontier, he was drowning in hatred and grief. page173-4
For the warriors those scalps were the trophies of war.
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Ella, Re casinos on Indian Reservations, you posted "And I would never, never go to one on an Indian reservation, such a sham, so false!"
Look at the statistics on this web site.
http://www.500nations.com/Indian_Casinos.asp
And this one for a Casino/Resort in the Choctaw Nation
http://www.winstarworldcasino.com/amenities/winstarworldhotel/
These facilities are owned by the tribe/nation that builds them, runs them and profits from them.
I am NOT a gambler - but this is Big Money for the tribes.
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That, yes, HAROLD. But it appeared to me that as there was no secret
service at that time, the 'honor guard' would have been the persons
expected to protect the President. At one time no one would have that
necessary, but surely that bubble of innocence was burst with the
assassination of McKinley.
To me, what would be unimaginable would be a President out in
public without an armed guard.
I'm not surprised MacKenzie received Quanah respectfully. He knew
from his own experience how intelligent, crafty and competent Quanah
was as a warrior and leader. That merry chase Quanah led MacKenzie,
dodging and back-tracking with an entire village in tow, was a
tactical marvel. The way Quanah put MacKenzie and his troops through hoops trying to catch him and his entire village….I loved it! Quanah‘s ingenuity, foresight, ability to lead and direct his people…amazing..
And Quanah respected MacKenzie as he did no other.
The two were able to form a bond of friendship that was a tribute to
them both.
ELLA, I will leave your first question to Harold's reliable skills.
But I can tell you that the second part is definitely true. For
many reservations there has been very little source of income. The
casinos, providing an additional enticement to tourists, have been
a great source of revenue for them.
I see CALLIE has provided some links for further information. They
should be a great help.
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I'm not a gambler and have never been in a casino. But I've always thought it somewhat fitting that the various tribes have found a way to get back from the Europeans some repayment of what was stolen from them.
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Exactly, JONATHAN -"These fierce warriors who conquered the southern Great Plains are reduced to picking cotton to make ends meet, after being compared to the Romans as Empire managers.
That is what I cannot reconcile in my mind; it somewhat reminds me of the wild animals that we have penned on reservations in Africa and in zoos. But these were men, magnificent men and they were free to live as they had always lived until the white man came.
However, the past must be buried and the Indians (and they are to be congratulated) have survived it all and are doing well on their reservations. They have found a way, as MARY remarked to get some compensation for what was stolen.
However, and I am alone in this opinion I would imagine, if I were an Indian I would want to assimilate into the community; get off of any kind of charity, become independent again as I once was. Of course, I would keep my Indian heritage and be proud of it, but I would not want the white man's scorn or his money.
I would admire them more if such be the case.
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BABI, we have not done justice to Quanah in our discussion have we? Your comment - "Quanah‘s ingenuity, foresight, ability to lead and direct his people…amazing.."
Yes, THIS WAS A MAN - Chapter 21. He is to be much admired.
Do you think our author gave equal time (words, I should say) to the white settlers. Somehow I think he leaned more in favor of the Indians in this book? I can't think of the word I want - was he balanced in his views?
Do you think revenge is the right word to describe the killing of both the settlers and the Indians?
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here is one Native American who did live a life as an individual and achieved what many can only dream of achieving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Herrington
Lack of business understanding, education make it difficult to successfully live off the reservation...There are a couple of movies within the last 10 years of young teens leaving the reservation - sort of an Kerouac On The Road view of their experience.
1924: Native-American citizenship.
Congress passes legislation extending United States citizenship to all Indians born in the United States. Many states continue to deny Native-Americans the right to vote using the same kinds of legal fictions, violence, and economic retaliation that is used to deny the vote to Blacks, Latinos, and Asians.
1945-1960: GIs fight for civil rights.
When Black, Latino, and Indian GIs return from the battlefields of WWII (and later Korea), they demand that all American citizens have the right to vote regardless of race. They had fought and died for democracy abroad, yet they cannot vote at home. (One out of every eight American GIs was an African-American; Latinos and Native-Americans also made up significant portions of the armed forces, which for the most part were organized on a segregated basis.)
On local, state, and federal levels GIs fight against the laws, customs, and oppression denying them the vote and other civil rights. Before WWII the NAACP numbered around 50,000 members, in the post-war years it swells ten times to over 500,000.
But the racists who hold economic power and political office — particularly in the U.S. Senate — are too strong. Most legislative remedies are blocked and few court cases are successful. For the most part, the GI movements are defeated and suppressed. Many GIs who had fought to free Europe from Nazi tyranny find themselves imprisoned for demanding the right to vote, and others are viciously murdered — often by police and sheriffs.
1948: State laws denying the vote to Native-Americans are overturned.
In one of the post-war period's few successful legal challenges, the Federal courts overturn the last state laws (Maine, Arizona, New Mexico) that explicitly prevent Indians from voting. Violence, economic retaliation, and different kinds of legal tricks continue to be used to prevent Native-Americans from voting.
1966: Voting Rights Act takes effect.
But though the legal barriers to voter registration are weakened or overturned by the Voting Rights Act, terror and economic retaliation continue to be used for a few more years against citizens-of-color who try to register to vote, particularly Blacks in the South and Latinos and Native-Americans in the Southwest. The Civil Rights Movement continues the fight, with the "Meredith Mississippi March Against Fear," and mass direct-action campaigns in towns such as Grenada and Natchez Mississippi.
And then Land...Land tenure in Indian country is complicated because of laws, dated to the 19th century, putting millions of acres of tribal and individual Indian land under the trusteeship of the Interior department's Bureau of Indian Affairs. These lands cannot be sold, used as collateral, easily inherited, or managed productively. Not all of the country's 550-plus recognized tribes have a reservation — some tribes have more than one reservation, some share reservations, while others have none. In 1988, Congress passed the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act, which recognized the right of Native American tribes to establish gambling and gaming facilities on their reservations as long as the states in which they are located have some form of legalized gambling.
List of Native American Reservations in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reservations_in_the_United_States
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Ella asks: "the Comanches were probably the most important tribe of the Great Plains. In spite of this, they have become something of a historical orphan. Texans do not like to talk about them ------
So far as the 19th Century is concern, I agree the Comanche were the most important tribe of the Great Plains. By most important, I mean the most known, the most written and talked about, the most feared; and that sort of thing. Do we avoid talking about them today? I don’t know that we do and this discussion is certainly an example of current interest and a current readiness to talk about them in a serious, factual, and respectful manner. If other ethnic groups seem to get more publicity perhaps it is a matter of population numbers. . According to the Comanche Nation site the number on Comanche enrollees today is a relatively small 14,557. In comparison the number of Irish Americans, and German American are in the 10’s of million. No wonder that they get more media time
Continuing: but Texans do not like to talk about them because of the memories are painful. Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanche because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims.
Of course the cruelties, the torture, the rape and pillage in their vilest form do not make for pleasant conversation. But the Comanche were not the only primitive groups acting in this repulsive manner. It was common not just with many other North and South American tribe, but in primitive times on every continent worldwide. As far as I’m concern we all must bear the burden of our past that we might, in the words of the poet, “ascend on stepping stones of our dead selves to higher things.”
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There are many successful Native American enterprises. In fact the SBA has a There are a number of art related Native American websites. This one is a recording studio.
http://www.cimsound.com/
I am trying to find information about energy companies that are NA owned. I vaguely remember a TV program some years back that included a section on energy enterprises on NA land. I thought I remembered a shot of an energy plant, but don't remember much else. I suppose they participate in oil/gas drilling and leasing, but I am curious if they are involved in Wind or Solar generation. What I found so far is this, http://www.motherearthnews.com/energy-matters/henry-red-cloud-renewable-energy.aspx As his name indicates, he is a decendant of THE Red Cloud.
Did you know that Famous Dave's Barbeque is NAI owned? Dave Anderson is a member of the Choctaw/Chippewa tribes. Then there is T. David Petite, who is a member of the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa Tribe. He holds 30 patents in things having to do with wireless technology. He also founded the Native American Inventors Association. http://nativeamericaninventor.com/bios.html
When I have more time, I intend to continue my explorations into NAI owned businesses. Just nosey, I guess. ;D
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Not nosey, Frybabe - just curiously interested. I tend to shoot off in all sorts of directions looking for information on this and that. Maybe that's why I come up with so many links.
Someone mentioned stories from the settlers' points of view. I don't remember if I learned about it here - but I am currently reading "The Captured" by Scott Zesch, who grew up in Mason County Texas and graduated from Texas A&M and Harvard Law School. He became curious about white captives when he found the grave of his relative who was a child captive of the Comanches - and survived but was "Indianized" (author's term).
The jacket blurb says "'The Captured' is a true account of what settlers considered a "fate worse than death" - and the personal story of Adolph Korn and eight other children abducted by Comanches and Apaches in the Texas Hill Country.
It might be good follow-up reading for participants when this discussion closes.
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Callie, I want to thank you, and the others, for all the informative links. I believe you were the first with the comanchenation.com link. Very interesting. And the marvellous pictorial links to the Texas landscapes, and the historical archives. Now what can you find on 'peyote', and 'peyote religion'? I was struck by reading that Quanah 'became one of the leading religious figures in the Comanche tribe and the driving force behind the establishment of the peyote religion among the Plains Indians.'
And on the next page (314) the author quotes Wallace and Hoebel: 'It (the peyote religion) was probably the most important cultural contribution of Comanches to the lives of other American Indians.'
Too little. Too late, I think. The image I get of them in the book is that everyone got in their way. Indians as well as whites. Every expedition mounted against them included numerous Indians from other tribes as trackers and allies, eager to avenge themselves on their common enemy.
It has occurred to me that perhaps the reason the Comanches took so many captives, was the crazy notion that they were offering them a chance at a better life. Cynthia Ann would be a good example. Of course, for the settlers it was a nightmarish prospect.
Harold has posted: 'Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanche because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims.'
Did you intend it as an understatement, Harold? I admire Gwynne for taking them on. Why does he give the Comanches chief billing in this tremendous historical drama? Is he carrying the white man's burden of guilt, also a part of 'manifest destiny,' to ride roughshod over the enemy...just like the Comanche?
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Jonathan, :) I've never been that curious about hallucinatory drugs. Now, if you'd like to know about Brush Arbor Revivals, I can tell you about going to one in the Choctaw Nation, not far from where I grew up.
Try Googling "Native American Church".
In this discussion, I've tried to share links about things in the book that pertain to Oklahoma - most of which I've either seen or am at least slightly familiar with.
A personal story about assimilation and keeping tradition.
My husband and I arrived the evening before a conference he was to attend at a state lodge. There was a Choctaw Pow-Wow being held in the lodge ballroom and the public could go in to watch the dancing.
One young man was really catching everyone's eye with his traditional costume - similar to the ones seen in this link: http://www.crazycrow.com/photos/native-american-mens-northern-traditional-20.php
At one point, he turned and on the back of his heavily beaded footwear, we clearly read the word "Nike"!!!!
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Callie sorry didn't mean to repeat a link that you already had shared - I was so caught up in the story I just shared what I was reading.
Yes, we have an annual pow wow here in Austin held every November - last year I thought it was particularly moving when all the living veterans of all the wars came in and danced each wearing an identical red blanket with a black stripe - the blanket was folded and covered their entire body draped front and back to the floor - there were veterans from the recent wars without limbs, on crutches and old men from WWII in wheel chairs pushed by their sons who were veterans - one family had 3 generations of veterans.
It is the beat of those drums that gets into your soul - the auditorium they dance in easily holds 5 of those giant drums and then outside there is a fairground atmosphere of booths for food and art work. Music and handmade musical instruments like flutes is big and then there is a story telling tent and a tent where some of the stories are performed or sung. While my daughter still lived in Austin I used to bring the grandboys - they would be spell bound and then the first time they went up to a costumed Indian and spoke to him they were in awe. I cannot keep away so I have gone alone several years and enjoyed myself. There is always someone to talk to.
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It would be great if it could be done, but it must be very difficult
to assimilate into a different culture without losing one's heritage.
Especially for the following generations. Even if an individual could
do so, it is doubtful that their children would.
I think Gwynne was fair in pointing out the flaws and sins on both
sides, but, yes, I do feel his sympathy lies more with the Indians.
But history is full of the stories of people shunted aside or destroyed
by invaders. Whole populations have been forced been extreme danger
or climate changes to either move or die.
Thanks for that excellent review of civil rights, BARB.
I liked that 'Nike' story, CALLIE. Most Indian tribes did seem quite
practical about using useful 'white man' items. Metal made better arrow
points than flint, right?
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Barb, I apologize if it sounded as if I were criticizing a repeat of a link. Finding and sharing information is always A Good Thing. I wish I knew how to make the link an informative title instead of just the URL.
The Red Earth Festival is held annually in Oklahoma City. I have never had the privilege of attending but the pictures and articles about the dancing competition and the honorees are wonderful.
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Regarding Jonathan Message #426. Actually this was from Ella Message #414. 'Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanche because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims.” She asked me to comment on it and my message #423 was my answer noting that I took 19th century Comanche war practices simply as the acts of a very primitive society really no better or no worst that the acts of many primitive societies in their day worldwide. They are unpleasant to talk about but that should not require that they be ignored.
I do believe that The Comanche have a valid claim to be the most important 19th Century Tribe. Certainly to 19th Century Texans they were. Perhaps in the Northwest another tribe would have been the popular choice.
Regarding the post Civil War U.S. Military Command, I think In Texas General Mackenzie was far superior to Custer in the northWest. I guess that fact is rather obvious since Mackenzie won, and Custer and the 7th Calvary units under his command at Little Bighorn ended up dead.
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"Some writers have deliberately avoided Comanches because it is a little awkward to describe them as victims; and others because Comanche society generally lacked the elaborate ceremony and ritual attractive to anthropologists."
Thanks, Harold, for clearing up the attribution foul up. I should look more closely at the text. I see now that Ella got the quote from one of Callie's links. Looking at it again I find it interesting that Comanches have not received the attention other tribes have because of the missing 'ceremony and ritual' in the Comanche lifestyle. Callie's crazycrow.com link gives a good idea of the eyecatching glory of the modern/traditional pow wows. Isn't the Fancy Shawl Dance stunning?
Quote: 'Fancy Shawl Dancers create the illusion of a butterfly floating through the air by dancing light on their feet and twirling around with their shawl extended like butterfly wings.'
I doubt if the Bolshoi Ballet can do better than that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but America is not about assimilation so much as finding a better medicine. Or finding a better weapon. I'm not sure. Haven't successive waves of immigration changed America beyond recognition?
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What great remarks and so many - THANK ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST IN THE BOOK AND THE DISCUSSION! IT'S BEEN A REAL TREAT FOR HAROLD AND MYSELF.
CALLIE, we all appreciated those links. I read most of them and the marvelous pictures!
And you have been to some of the pow-wow's that the Indians held? Why do they have these? Do they make money by charging tourists or is it something their tribe wants to do for recreation? What costumes (by Nike, hahaha!) I know they used deerskin and buffalo hides for clothing in the 1800's and I would suppose the women - if they could spare the time from those numerous chores - would have dyed them for ceremonies.
Dancing competitions! The Bolshoi Ballet! What are we talking about here.
Thanks, BARBARA, for telling us about the pow-wow's (where did that word come from?) you've been to - sad to see some of those veterans I'm sure. And those drums? Did the Comanches have drums and dances? Somehow it doesn't fit, but I know somewhere Gwynne talks about them singing and having fun. And why shouldn't they?
Quanah had all those wives and children, grandchildren - he probably had pow-wows just within his own family.
You think, BABI, that the Indian would have lost their heritage? No ancestry.com for them? No family reunions? They seemed, as you said,to want the white man's goods, but not his way of life.
JONATHAN, we have been told by historians that immigration has helped to make America a great melting pot, we get the good, as well as the bad, of other places, other countries; we have benefited. However, I'm not informed enough to debate the issue. And what of Canada, England? The Empire Builders! I've just finished a wonderful book - WEST OF THE NIGHT by Beryl Markham - the second time I have read it. And England was King of the world. The natives were ignorant and treated as servants; it was Memsahib and Sah every meal! And the white people in Kenya were all from England.
And I wonder, sometimes, why the natives of those countries eventually became independent and our natives are on reservations?
We must google the peyote religion; how nice to leave reality for a short hour or two in a church, mind you!
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Ella, we just happened upon the pow wow I mentioned. That's the only one I have ever seen.
Maybe Barb will tell us more about the one in Austin TX that she's attended several times.
As to "Why?"....Guess What! Here's a link! :D
http://www.elements.nb.ca/theme/ethics/pow/wow.htm
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Good link, CALLIE, and I quote:
"When early European explorers first saw these sacred dances, they thought "Pau Wau" referred to the whole dance. Actually, its Aboriginal definition refers to the medicine people and spiritual leaders. As more Nations learned the English language, they accepted the "Pow-Wow" definition."
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Little time today - I am going to put up here a bunch of links to past pow wow's in Austin - some are Youtube with video -
http://www.yapclub.com/austin/events/5844/18th-annual-austin-powwow.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gl1HXi5eEAc&NR=1 2008
http://ralphbarrera.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/17th-annual-austin-powwow-a-site-to-see/
http://photoblog.statesman.com/19th-annual-austin-powwow-and-american-indian-heritage-festival
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwfuAdGfaAc&feature=related2009 Men's Chicken Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr1N7rZDTOk&feature=related2007 Men's Duck and Dive
http://insightphotography.smugmug.com/Events/13th-Annual-Austin-Powwow/280446_8yjvq/1/12426049_KQR3V#11127344_6u49Y
http://www.manataka.org/page828.html 2011 National Pow Wow Calendar
And here from the Comanche site is their scheduled Pow wows with their explanation of the Pow wow
http://www.comanchenation.com/powwows/
This is not Austin however, I love the women's Shawl Dance - folks, get your heart pumping and try this in your living room for the 6 plus minutes of this Video - the stamina is amazing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxE7TQGXAjQ&NR=1
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The Comanches were horsemen, as we know. When the buffalo disappeared, so was their way of life.. "They became owners of property, something they had never wanted and had never really understood."
Did you ever feel that Quanah had sold out - left aside his proud and lofty principles - as he joined Teddy Roosevelt in his buffalo-hunting parties? I wasn't prepared for that. Did it appear that he was thinking only of himself and his large family, as he became a rich man?
We're told that the Comanches became ranchers. Is that the case today? How have the Indians fared in the last century? I see quite a few casinos in Oklahoma, Callie. Do they really benefit the Indians on the reservations? I've heard conflicting reports. No doubt the casinos make money, but do the communities in which they are located, share the wealth?
Not so long ago, SeniorLearn's predecessor, SeniorNet, focussed on the needs of a number of Indian Reservations -
Here's an artilce describing the initiative - I'll try to show you how to make the kind of link you mentioned you'd like to learn. Will leave a space after the [ or else it won't show here. You should NOT leave any spaces [ ], okay? Here's what you do...
[ url=http://www.rlnn.com/ArtJune07/LLBandAchievementCtrOpens.html ] SeniorNet's Achievement Centers on Indian Reservations. [ /url ]
If you remove all those spaces I left above you will see this-
SeniorNet's Achievement Centers on Indian Reservations. (http://www.rlnn.com/ArtJune07/LLBandAchievementCtrOpens.html)
From the above article -
"The first center opened in September at Blackfeet Nation in Browning, Mont. The centers are designed to bring computer technology access and education to low-income and remote American Indian reservations across the United States.
The center is a positive step for people of all ages on the reservation to move toward economic self-sufficiency, said David Goodman, economic development officer with the AIEDF and Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe member.
“The Native American population living in the rural and low-income communities are still left behind … as the nation moves forward in the areas of computer technology,” he said.
In an effort to promote reading among the reservation’s K-12 students, SeniorNet’s online book club has also organized a book donation program in which it will procure and coordinate the donation and shipment of books to the center."
That last paragraph was US...our online book club. Several in this discussion took part in these book drives...do you remember?
Now I'm going to get to work reading the links you've provided...
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JoanP, Thank you for the "link lesson". The minute I saw it, I remembered being taught how in the old SeniorNet - but I had forgotten! :-[
I don't know enough about the various Indian Nation governments to know how the casino profits are divided.
Neither do I know enough about the general economic status of Oklahoma tribal members to compare with situations in other states.
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2. What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?
Don't any or you remember the incident in Chapter 19 that led me to this question. This was an incident at at the conclusion of the Red River War. It was the result of a certain order from Mackenzie. I really believe this incident gave rise to an interesting and colorful popular song that all of you are sure to remember. Am I going to have to tell you the answer? S.C. Gwynne in his last sentence of the last paragraph about this incident gives a descriptive clew; though he never mentions the song name he seems seems to be referring to this song..
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Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C.Gwynne
February Book Club Online
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/empirebookcovernew.jpg) | It's an AMERICAN STORY. THE U.S. ARMY, TEXAS RANGERS - SETTLERS- ALL AGAINST THE INDIANS
The year was 1871 and the final destruction of the last of the hostile tribes was just beginning after 250 years of bloody combat. The end of the Civil War had brought many new people to the west searching for land, adventure, glory.
By this time the Indians had seen the buffalo depart, they were cadging food, stealing horses and other useful artifacts or ornamental things from the white man. Some learned to speak Spanish or English. All loved clothing and blankets made of cotton or wool, and the accumulation of white man's artifacts. It was a sort of cultural pollution that could not be stopped.
And then there were the white captives; particularly a white squaw who had lived with the Indians, married, had a son named Quanah who became the last great Comanche War Chief. An epic saga! A fascinating book! Come join us as we discuss the integration of the Indians into a civilized world.
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(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/mapgreatplainsshaded.jpg)
Map of Great Plains - shaded in red | Discussion Schedule
Feb 22 - 28 Chapters 19 -22 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/empiresummermoon/greatplainsnebraska.jpg) Great Plains near Nebraska |
Talking Points
Feb. 22-28 ~ Chapters 19-22
1. What was the general military situation as it existed in the Texas Panhandle in the spring of 1875? What was General Sheridan's plan for final victory on the Southern Plains?
2. What popular 1960’s-70’s song came out of a tactical order from General Mackenzie at the end of the battle of Palo Duro Canyon?
3. What was the Comanche situation in the spring of 1876? What options did Quanah have left? Were you surprised at his decision to surrender by leading his people into the reservation? What reception did the band receive from General Mackenzie when they arrived at Fort Sill?
4. How did Quanah measure up as the primary Comanche leader in the protection of Comanche interests in negotiations with the United States, particularly in connection with the forced sale of Indian land under the Dawes Act?
5. How did Quanah react toward new technology coming into general use in the early years of the 20th Century? What misuse of technology almost resulted in Quanah’s death? Discuss some of the incidents growing out of Quanah’s relationship with Theodore Roosevelt
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6. Discuss Quanah’s role in the establishment of the Native American Church. In Quanah’s words, how did he describe the difference between main stream Christian and Native American worship?
7. Contrast Quanah’s reservation career with that of Sitting Bull, who was also a Fort Sill resident.
Related Links: Interview with author, S.C. Gwynne (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127930650&ft=1&f=1032); Listen to C-SPAN Interview HERE (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127930650&m=128030370);
MAP of Texas (http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/images/usa/texas.jpg); Historical Maps of Texas (http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/us_states/texas/index.html); Tribal Map of Oklahoma (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/nations1.htm);
All about the Red River (Mississippi River) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_(Mississippi_River));
The Die is Cast (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/images/battleofplumcreek.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/dieiscast.html&usg=__Ud74zGeKWFlzf9bmpyeyLDaM-j0=&h=381&w=780&sz=81&hl=en&start=12&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=Fp_F_-uvUTho9M:&tbnh=69&tbnw=142&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcomanches%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com )
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CAllie's post:
Harold, I thought of this when I read it - and should have come directly to the computer....but I didn't!
Is it "Ghost Riders In The Sky"?
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Calleinok you got it. We might wonder if this was in the Song writers mind when "Ghost Riders in the sky "was written but it sure seems that song was in Gwinnes mind when in Chapter 19 he wrote "Mackenzie's slaughter of the Comanche horses also spawned a legend . On certain nights it is said a phantom herd can be seen galloping through the canyon riderless their spectral manes flying in the wind."
Regarding other heading comments llook at the one concerning the Comanche's adaptation to new technology. Do you suppose Quanah and those ex Comanche warriors drove their Automobiles like they drove their horses?
Quanah himself also almost died as the result of sleeping with an un-vented natural gas heater.
during the 1930's until the 50's we used them in our homes, but in our house rule one was never leave them on while sleeping.
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MacKenzie was one of those rare officers who could learn from their
enemies and alter tactics as needed. Most career officers tended to
do things 'the army way', as they had been taught, irregardless of
how useless that was.
And I wonder, sometimes, why the natives of those countries eventually became independent and our natives are on reservations?
I can think of two contributing factors for that, ELLA. Countries like
India had a unity and identity, a culture and a social framework that
the scattered tribes of native Americans did not have. That remained
mostly intact throughout the years of dominance by Europeans. Secondly, the smaller tribal groups simply did not survive to reach the more 'enlightened' times of respect for the independence of other cultures. Such as it is.
I don't think Quanah was thinking only of himself, JOANP. He was
always very protective of his tribe and his people. He shared his
wealth with any of them who needed it, to the extent that at his
death he had almost nothing left.
I think that Fed. Investigator, Francis Leupp, summed up Quanah
quite well. “Quanah might have been a leader and a governor in any
circle where fate might have cast him---it is in his blood.”
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I've only a few minutes, back later, but have read the posts.
I thought the song might have been RED RIVER VALLEY - see the history of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_Valley_(song)
And now you can listen to this old song - it used to play on radio for soap operas I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezJkRDQmL2Y
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This is lovely, with pictures:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKM4bn4kS-0
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"Did you ever feel that Quanah had sold out - left aside his proud and lofty principles - as he joined Teddy Roosevelt in his buffalo-hunting parties? "- JOANP
Yes, I did. But as Gwynne remarked: their new lives on the reservations - "By Comanche standards, it was an aimless, purposeless existence."
Quanah did try into his old age to improve the lot of the children, the tribe;the fought the laws of the white man. What could he do?
"No doubt the casinos make money, but do the communities in which they are located, share the wealth? - JOANP
How would we ever know - here's an article from TIME MAGAZINE - an investigation
http://pactoregon.org/time-1.html#WHEEL_OF_MISFORTUNE
A paragraph:
"The White Man Wins Again. While most Indians continue to live in poverty, many non-Indian investors are extracting hundreds of millions of dollars - sometimes in violation of legal limits - from casinos they helped establish, either by taking advantage of regulatory loopholes or cutting backroom deals. More than 90% of the contracts between tribes and outside gaming-management companies operate with no oversight. That means investors' identities are often secret, as are their financial arrangements and their share of the revenue."
Good questions, JOANP, and I do remember all that you posted about Seniornet. THANK YOU FOR THAT!
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BABI - I was thinking more about the African nations that became independent after WWII. Do you think they had a culture or were they just many tribes, such as our own Indians?
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Bits and Pieces
This morning, I went to the monthly Volunteer meeting at The Oklahoma History Center. The speaker was Margaret Roach Wheeler, a Chickasaw weaver.
Her ancestors came to Indian Territory from Mississippi on The Trail of Tears. She grew up with varied tribal influences because her father was a teacher for the Bureau of Indian Affairs at Indian schools in South Dakota, Montana, Arizona and Washington State.
Her designs began as wall art and gradually moved into clothing. She gets her inspiration from old photos of Indians, sculpture, paintings and tribal stories. She combines the modern with the tradition. For instance, a blanket or buffalo robe wrapped around a man in a picture or painting may become a cape.
Here is the web site for her Mahota Handweavers business. I thought you might like to read about her and see some of the designs.
http://www.margaretroachwheeler.com/
She showed us slides and explained her inspiration for almost all of the designs in "The Mahotan Collection" and brought four of them to display.
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On page 312, the book mentions Quanah Parker appearing in the first two-reel western movie ever made - which was filmed near his home in Cache OK.
Not too long ago, the Kiowa tepee (an original) used in the movie was discovered in the Oklahoma Historical Society Collection. (Until the current History Center was completed, this collection was scattered in warehouses around OKC). It had been in the collection since 1929 but was thought to be a wagon cover because it was folded up.
It is painted canvas and is in the process of being restored.
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Oh my beautiful Callie - forwarded the link on to my sisters...
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I agree with you Ella. I would have thought that Red River Valley fit the bill.
Ghost Riders in the Sky is about a ghost herd of cattle and their equally ghostly drovers. However, I missed the clue so I will have to go back and take a look at it. Ghost Riders is one of my all time favorite Western songs. I have at least three versions of it.
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I just turned on Book TV, and got in the middle of a talk by A. J. Langguth, author of Driven West: Andrew Jackson and the Trail of Tears to the Civil War] (http://www.amazon.com/Driven-West-Andrew-Jackson-Trail/dp/1416548599/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298758372&sr=1-1).
Click here (http://www.booktv.org/Program/12158/Driven+West+Andrew+Jackson+and+the+Trail+of+Tears+to+the+Civil+War.aspx) for the Book TV site for it.
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Okay, Harold and Callie, it's all your fault. I'm up on YouTube listening to every Ghost Riders version they have.
This one is very good. Not familiar with the group, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V23uVjYSOok&feature=related
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Ha ha - their costumes are hilarious - reading the comments it fits - evidently they are known for their comedy - they do have a mean violin player - can't nail the accent - sounds mid-west to me - I wondered if they were part of that group that later expanded to a dozen from Indiana University - although they look older - and yet, a few of the No Chasers are in their late 30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Cit0pi--M&playnext=1&list=PLC526E23F194116CC
Stay tuned for thier version of Lion King - it is a riot
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Has anyone put up this link?
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/tx-redriverwar.html
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It is that expression 'The Red River War' that is still used as part of the fun every fall to describe when UT plays OK
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Go Sooners! :D
I think I remember Frankie Laine singing "Ghost Riders..." but that was probably in the 50's.
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:D
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You're right, ELLA; the African countries were largely tribal. I
think that the difference there is that European settlers weren't
trying to move in on them in huge numbers. The white man was just
there to get what profit he could out of it. When the losses
outweighed the profits, or when public sentiment grew heavily
against them; they went home. The local population was still mostly
in place.
I don't remember Frankie Laine singing "Ghost Riders.." The most
popular one I recall was Vaughn Monroe.
I did some checking and there are apparently some 12 major religions among Native Americans. It was news to me to learn of Quanah’s role in the establishment of the peyote cult as a popular religion among the Plains Indians. Here are the twelve native religions.
Of course, Christianity is included today.
Longhouse Religion, Waashat Religion, Dreamer Religion, Indian Shaker Religion, Drum Religion, Earth Lodge Religion, Ghost Dance Religion,
Bole-Maru Religion, Dream Dance, Feather Religion, Peyote Religion
I don't know how complete this list is...and of course the term
'religion' is ours. I'm assuming the Indians would have referred to it
as 'medicine', their source of personal and tribal power and strength.
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Ella thank you for The song “Red River Valley.” That is a real golden oldddddddie. I’m adding this one to our apartment sing along book right now.
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>BABI - I was thinking more about the African nations that became independent after WWII. Do you think they had a culture or were they just many tribes, such as our own Indians? Ella #446
Regarding this Question: I think the tribal structure in Africa in many ways did have considerable similarity to the American Indian tribal structure. On both continents there were many independent tribes speaking their own language with their own particular culture. Though through the year’s, there was considerable European immigration to Africa, I don’t think it ever took on the large overwhelming numbers that settled in the Americas. Also in the late 18th century, the independence of the U.S. created a strong national European state attracting a century of great European immigration. This did not happen in Africa.
In Africa, Europeans came to extract resources enlisting African labor. It might appear that African labor was more adapt to employment in European enterprise than the Indians were in the Americas. Finally the question came to a head a century later than in the Americans when in the post WW II world, European opinion had become more ready to recognize the rights of native populations as well as their increasing educational abilities. These factors coupled with the economic and military weakness of European colonial powers at the end of WW II led rather easily to the end of Colonialism and the Independence of the many African cultures.
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Ghost Riders in the Sky?
Certainly. But then, for me, this book has left the whole landscape of Texas thronged with ghosts. Not least, of course, Chief Quanah, who makes such a colorful entrance on page 11, 'on a coal black racing pony,'and goes out riding with Teddy Roosevelt at the latter's inaugural parade, making what seems like an easy transition from bloodthirsty Comanche to born-again Christian, talking to Jesus. The Prince of War powwowing with the Prince of Peace!
'Did you ever feel that Quanah had sold out - left aside his proud and lofty principles ?'
Good question. No. We are reassured by the author that Quanah also remained true to himself. 'the quintessential Quanah: hustling, demanding, always looking for an angle, always negotiating yet unwilling to compromise his own principles.'
'I used to be a bad man....' Was that said with contrition? Did his heart bleed for the ghosts he left in his wake?
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I dont think that Quanah sold out, he was intelligent enough to see that the indan way was very rapidly disappearing. He was a survivalist above all else, the same trait that saved his mother when she was captured.As far as the rituals of the commanches go, they were such a mixture of races almost like an entirelly new entity, negroes, adoptees and captured children so that they had to work around these different peoples . They were also very busy into the conquering and destroy modes so didnt have the time to set up a series of religious rituals.
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How did the author know that Quanah remained true to himself when all of his info is seacond and third hand?
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We are approaching the end of our book; the end of our discussion. It's just been great, hasn't it?
Overall, how would you rate the book? Well, let's say on a scale of 1-10 (ten, of course, being the highest).
What would have made this a better book? What should have been left out?
What one character most impressed you?
Taking into consideration the fact that Gwynne is an award-winning journalist, do you feel that he was true to his subject; that all of what he has written is based in fact?
He does have impressive notes to each chapter and his bibliography is just unbelievable!
Did you learn any new facts?
Would you recommend the book to a friend?
Again, I want to thank all of you for your interest, it was so much fun to read all your comments. A good time, a good discussion!
Let's meet again!
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This has been a fascinating discussion and I enjoyed it very much. I knew the "basics" about Cynthia Ann and Quanah Parker and "basically" where the Comanche's early territory was - but I had never gotten into the details. So I learned a lot about local/regional history.
I have recommended the book to several friends who are also volunteers at The Oklahoma History Center - and plan to donate a copy to the Volunteer Library if there isn't one already there.
As I've mentioned, I'm reading "The Captured: The True Story of Abduction By Indians On The Texas Frontier" (published 2004) and I heartily recommend it to those of you who would like to do some supplemental reading on this subject.
Gwynne cites this book in his Bibliography (page 350).
While checking for this possibility, I discovered a sentence on Page 344 that might relate to the question "which came first in Gwynne's interest - Quanah Parker or the Comanches" .
He says: "The section in Walter Prescott Webb's 1931 masterpiece The Great Plains is what got me interested in the subject [of Comanche history] in the first place."
I think Gwynne may have used Quanah Parker as a "hook" to draw reader's interest in an historical account.
It worked for me!
Thank you, Ella and Harold for opening this discussion. I hope I didn't bore everyone to pieces with all the links!
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I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and the links everyone posted. As I cruise around in Gutenberg's free e-library, I find myself looking for volumes about the Indians. I downloaded one, forgot the name, which had many first hand accounts of early settlers, including the Indian raids. TBR later.
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yes this discussion was in-depth and lots of good sharing - my interest has been with the Cherokee - the books and poets of today that I felt the need to research the history of the tribes were those in the Cherokee Nation. One cultural difference that when I learned of it I thought the most fascinating thing I ever heard - the Cherokee before they adopted White Man's ways had two types of villages - a white or a red village - the white village was all about peace and no one could harm anyone in a white village where as a red village was all about aggression and war and those villages were the warriors of the Cherokee The duality among the Cherokee was not good versus bad until they tried to understand and adapt the white man's terminology and thinking - for the Cherokee the duality in the universe was peace versus aggression.
And so not having read much about the Comanche I wondered if they too were adapting to what they realized the white man understood when they labeled themselves bad - I wonder if they were using the white man's logic of good and bad to define their behavior to a white man.
Thanks Ella and Harold - a wonderful experience.
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Let me take this opportunity to thank each and every one of you who have participated here in this discussion. I think it has come across quite well, and this is because of the scholarly study and enthusiastic input of you participants. Hopefully we can come together again later this year maybe in the summer or fall to discuss another nonfiction title.
While the title candidates are open for discussion, let me take this opportunity to ask if there might be interest in another Texas History title. The book that I think might be of general Interest is The LaSalle Expedition to Texas by Henri Joutel, edited by William C. Foster, published by the Texas State Historical Society.
Joutel was a La Salle Lieutenant who was with La Salle and the Expedition from its organizing in France in 1684, He tell of the sailing, the land fall in Hispaniola, the search for the Mississippi, the landing in Texas, Life at Fort St Louis, the many hardships and problems , La Salle’s decision to abandon the fort, the assignation of La Salle The long trek to the Mississippi including the stops at Caddo and other Indian villages, and finally after a 9 month journey the arrival at the Quapaw village on the Mississippi at the mouth of the Arkansas River. Joutel and some of the 8 Survivors returned to France to write this account which constitutes all that is know about this interesting attempt to make Texas French. It succeeded only in making the French one of the six Flags that have flown over Texas.
Click the following link for more information on this book. http://www.amazon.com/Salle-Expedition-Texas-Journal-1684-1687/dp/0876111657/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298863810&sr=1-1
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I have learned so much from this book that I didn't know, despite the
fact that I'm Texan and studied Texas history in school. School just
didn't cover this period in the detail that Gwynne has.
I would be grateful for this book if only because it introduced me to
John Coffee Hays and Ranald MacKenzie. Two remarkable men that I
have come to greatly admire. I think I'd like to know more about them.
Thank you so much, ELLA & HAROLD, for your painstaking scholarship
and knowledge of history. And the contributions of our other posters
as well. You are an erudite bunch, I must say.
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Regarding John Coffee Hays , he did not stay in Texas, After coming down with a serious case of gold fever he left Texas for California. I presume that Hays County Just South of Austin was named after him. Regarding Ranaald Mackenzie, he continued his military with several Western commands during the late 1870's and early 80's. Unfortunately his carer was cut short by mental Illness and he died in 1889. http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fma07
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What a great frontier saga. I found it a very moving history. I liked the way Gwynne handled the material he was working with. Trying to be objective, but still putting a lot feeling into it. What an agony for a generation of settlers. Of course I would recommend it.
I enjoyed the lively interest and the sage comments in all your posts.
Thanks, Ella and Harold. I would rate your discussion leadership a full 10!
'Let's meet again.'
Count me in, if the LaSalle Expedition to Texas is proposed.
Texas Revisited! I like the idea.
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There were times when I felt left out. It was my age, of course. This was no country for old men. I'm sure it was at least a dozen times that the author put me with the women and children, in need of protection. It left me wondering if a Comanche would even want my scalp. No glory in that at the war dance. A white scalp, like the black, would, no doubt, be bad medicine.
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Goodness, is it really the end of February already? Where did the time go!? Can't let you go off without thanking everyone- Ella and Harold, for bringing us this most interesting topic - and all of you "Westerners" for sharing your experience! You are still living this history - walking the plains, seeing the descendants of the people we have been talking about. Your contributions have brought so much better understanding to those of us in the East, where our knowledge and awareness is pretty much limited to cowboy movies. I'm serious! We hear very little of the living conditions of the Indian tribes. Throughout the discussion, I've been listening to your posts to learn what has become of them today.
I've been thinking that only a little over 100 years have passed, since the tribes were forced to change their entire way of living. Jonathan, you were born just a few years too late. I can see you now, the skilled horseman, riding with the Texas Rangers, six-shooter in hand!
Coming in to this discussion, my sympathies were with the first inhabitants. As we progressed, I found myself repulsed by the violence to women and children, scalping, gang rapes, etc. of the pioneer settlers who wanted and needed so little to make their homes! Why was so much violence necessary?
Obviously, the agreements weren't going to work - the Indians didn't respect those treaties - and the Government in Washington never did live up to what they promised in return. I'm resigned to what happened now. But it took a whole lot of listening and soul-searching.
This afternoon, my Bruce and I watched "The Searchers" together - and I spent the whole time explaining what really happened. (He thought the young girl was thankful to be rescued and then lived happily ever after with her family. I feel like such an expert, thanks to this book and this conversation with you all. That is what I am most thankful to Mr. Gwynne for - his even treatment and understanding of both sides of the situation.
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I'm sorry to learn about MacKenzie's final end, HAROLD. Considering how he lived in constant pain most of his life, I suppose it's not too
surprising he finally broke down under it.
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Mr. Hays faired a lot better than MacKenzie. I guess he didn't make it or got sidetracked from being a gold miner. He became Sheriff of San Francisco in 1850. Not too long afterward he was appointed U. S. Surveyor General for California. He helped develop Oakland, which means he was into real estate. According to the bios, he also held interests in banking and utilities too. In 1876, he was a delegate to the Democratic national convention. He died in 1883 and is buried in Oakland.
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The Searchers
Did you get a lump in your throat, when Ethan (Uncle James/John Wayne) picked Debbie (Cynthia Ann) up in his strong arms and said: 'C'mon Debbie, it's time to go home?
Hays certainly deserved some of that gold in the Texas ground. Born too soon.
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Or was it, 'Let's go home?'
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I will in conclusion of this fine fun filled discussion, mention of the fact that yesterday was the 175th anniversary of the signing of the Texas Declaration of Independence. It was a hastily approved document issued by a convention in a hurry since Santa Anna's Mexican army had the small Texan Garrison under singe at the Alamo in San Antonio. They realized It was only a matter of days before that large Mexican army would be free to resume the east ward march.
It was by a curious twist of fate that an over confident Mexican President goofed in a big way some 7 weeks later after splitting his force and taking (it is rumored) a late afternoon siesta break with Emilie Morgan, a lovely black girl he had somehow acquired crossing south Texas. Some Texas folklorists style her the “Yellow Rose of Texas.” In any case while the Mexican Army rested the 800 Texans charged and Lamar’s Calvary and the Bayou block retreat. It was all over in 16 minute. The Next day Santa Anna was captured wearing a private’s uniform.
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Thank you all for your participation. This discussion is now locked and archived.