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Title: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: BooksAdmin on June 24, 2019, 12:47:04 PM

(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Educated.jpg)

You’ve heard about it, everybody is reading it, you can’t put it down, but what do YOU make of Educated? Mark your calendar for July 19 and join us in our new fun Mini Book Discussion Series this summer and help us discuss Educated: A Memoir by Tara Westover, an unbelievable and true story which will never be forgotten by anybody who reads it. Come tell us what you think!

How is a Mini Discussion different from a regular one?

1. We read the book in its entirety before the first day.

2. We've been using the ALA "Index card" approach which has worked wonderfully. In essence everybody has been given a (virtual) "index card" which they then "write" on, giving a question they'd like to see discussed or their thoughts on the book or something in the book, just whatever they would like to talk about. They email that to me (click on envelope under my name or request email address here) and if you don't have email, post your question initially and I'll save it as submitted and we'll put it like the others, in the rota, and then on July 19 I will take the cards and each day we'll consider a new one submitted in alphabetical order of the person submitting.

We address THAT question or thought for an entire day. And we can also look back, after addressing that thought, to something said before. I love this concept, and that everybody has their day.

Once the cards are finished, anybody can bring up anything they like about the book.

Should someone not want to submit a question or thought, no problem, you are as welcome as the flowers in July to participate any way you wish.

Everyone is welcome!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 09, 2019, 12:51:46 PM

Here is a very good question and answer interview with Tara Westover who wrote Educated from PBS which I think may surprise some people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYg_gp0JPchttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYg_gp0JPc

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 10, 2019, 05:07:04 PM

Another interview, this one audio only from NPR in January with Tara Westover. In this one she makes some interesting remarks about stopping toxicity in a family or situation and where she is today with her family.

https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/2019/01/18/686464365

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 11, 2019, 08:21:51 AM

Just a note about this book before we start discussing it on the 19th. It appears from the Reviews on Goodreads and other places that the world is totally divided over the book, and passionately so. You apparently either love it or hate it because it contains elements worthy of both. I recommend reading the one star reviews on Goodreads as kind of a jumping off place, as they bring up issues that need to be included in the conversation.

I have never seen a book which so many people alternately absolutely raved over and hated, and of course that makes for a great discussion. It seems to touch many buttons, so it will be fascinating to see what our intelligent readers make of it here.

I thought the NPR interview which has the followup coda of whom in the family she now is in contact with was the most revealing. She is very careful to exonerate and find excuses for her father, not so her mother (though if my own mother ran about telling people today I had a demon in me I am not sure I would find excuses either).

I have my own strong opinions about what I read, and I hope you'll express yours, too, but without any desire to change the opinions of those here, we're all entitled to the buttons it pushes, and I personally benefited by reading the GoodReads negative reviews, as I don't need the positive ones: I'm there.

I think that's why book discussions are so useful, you get all different opinions about reading the same thing.

Just to say I'm looking forward to this, and the reasons why!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 12, 2019, 12:05:46 PM

Ginny, you nailed it! This book is a love/hate book. Depending on your own personal life experiences, it can, and did touch on subjects that I experienced as a child, living in a home of seven children, with my mother, who feared my abusive/drunken step father. This book gave me chills, causing so many memories flood my mind. I have begun writing a book, but what always brings me to a standstill, is how my emotions are still raw, when I relive what happened in our home. Tara did a great job in giving the reader, a clear picture of how a child lives in a home of abuse, and mental illness. And, how to survive it.

I love the "mini" discussion format, although, with a book like this, there is so much packed in this book, that if we were reading at the same time, chapter by chapter, it would probably get a lengthy, in-depth discussion. Knowing our group, we will pick the meat off the bones.

Thank you for the links. Looking forward to the 19th.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 15, 2019, 08:53:52 PM

I'm back from Portland, and have started Educated. It remains to be seen where I'll end up on the love/hate spectrum, but there's no doubt that I'll finish it--it really sucked me in.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 16, 2019, 11:00:47 AM

It really does, and it's very well written, too. I'm looking forward to this as well.

Now the way the "Mini" discussions work is that each person, should he or she want to, can submit a topic du jour, a question they want to discuss, or a thought they had when reading it or anything they want to say they felt about the book which will lthen lead the next day, will be the topic of attention that day.

These can be submitted to me by clicking on the email drawing under my name, you don't need an email account to do it and on your day we discuss your thought and we can discuss also any prior things we touched on earlier, but nothing else. But that ensures that your thought or question or observation gets our full attention on that day.

It's light, it's fun, and I personally love it.

I have an opening thought for Friday the 19th and then we'll take any submitted in alphabetical order each day after that. This procedure is a recommendation from the American Library Association, and I very much like the concept.

If you would prefer not to do that, once all the topics submitted are touched on, you can be free to bring up anything in the discussion itself as always.

Looking forward to this, very much!

It's light, it's easy, and it's fun. Everyone is welcome!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 16, 2019, 03:57:27 PM

Ginny, I'm not so sure I would agree with you on this particular book discussion as being, "light or easy," This is a very serious book, that deals with family dysfunction, horrible accidents, mental illness, and other topics, that gave me chills at times. But I do think this discussion will be interesting.

Pat, I am so glad you are reading the book, and will be joining us!

Jonathan, Please join us, I look forward to your insight.

I like the index card idea, and even if someone does not want to submit a question, please join us in the discussion.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 16, 2019, 04:24:03 PM

Bellamarie, I was trying to say that from the POV of the person leading the discussion, the Mini format itself is light and easy and fun, not the book. I am not sure anybody would consider the book light, easy, or fun.

At least I wouldn't. :)

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 16, 2019, 05:13:59 PM

Ooops, sorry, my mistake. Yes, I like this new format.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 16, 2019, 05:51:04 PM

Not a problem, I wasn't clear. :)

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 17, 2019, 12:13:09 PM

'It's light, it's easy, and it's fun.'

I like that, Giiny, even if applied to the book as a read. Everyone is reading it and telling me, 'I couldn't put it down.' It's a religious household, and so even the calamities are trials, or even blessings, sent from heaven. As recalled by the lost, or black sheep in the family. It takes one to know one. Many readers must be putting themselves into this memoir.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 17, 2019, 02:30:12 PM

I think you're absolutely right, Jonathan. And depending on what the personal experience or viewpoint of each person IS this should make for a fascinating discussion.

So glad to see you here, hope you are feeling much better!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 19, 2019, 07:36:38 AM

Good morning, All, and welcome to our new Mini discussion of Educated by Tara Westover!

So you've read it, and you love it or hate it? It's going to be hard to discuss.

For our opening index card, our first topic du jour, I had a terrible time starting with just one question. Here are some I considered: Jonathan's post above refers to a religious family. Is that what it is? Why did she write this? For what purpose? When you listen to her interviews she defends Dad, saying he's got some kind of disorder mentally (bi polar, perhaps?) but loved his children and would never put them in harm's way... REALLY? That alone is mind boggling. And seemed to not understand danger...I guess that's one way to put it. And I don't even want to go into that last interview when asked to give something positive in her life which might have inspired her to learn, saying Dad always said you could teach yourself anything. Education again. Let's face it, as one of the Goodreads reviewers said, you can't teach yourself astro physics (or something like that) if you don't know it exists. So what does she mean by "Educated?"

Yes I'd say Dad has some issues but then there's Mom, who is strangely left out of the ameliorating descriptions and actually her Essential Oils (buy some on Amazon today!) certainly almost look like witch "potions," but who now refers to her daughter as possessed of a demon? And then there's "Shawn," is that his "name" in the book, the psycho brother? Almost certifiable, abusive, one constantly worries over his own wife and children, where is Child Protective Services? Seriously! ....MERCY, where to even start??

Finally, considering all of the above, I think I'd like to start, strangely enough, with the title and what it seems to imply, because I THINK it shows the reason she wrote the book.

Why would she call her memoir "Educated?"

On the surface that seems an obvious question, doesn't it?

I would not have titled this "Educated." What would YOU have titled it?

But she is referring to herself, or is she?

Because she called it Educated, I wonder what that implies: is it in comparison with anybody or anything? And essentially then why she wrote it? Is it saying that she, now certainly by anybody's standards, educated, now sees the light and that's the benefit of education? If so what does that make the rest of the people in the book, her family, some of whom also have PhD's. So why did she write it, then? What do you think she means by the word "educated?" And does that imply anything at all about the people depicted in it?

I think that title implies a lot more than a reference to her education, but I may be wrong. What do YOU think?

Everyone is welcome!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 19, 2019, 11:22:32 AM

'I would not have titled this "Educated." What would YOU have titled it?'

'So what does she mean by "Educated?" '

She does use the word 'educated' in a variety of contexts. including the reading of 'Dad's books, which were mostly compilations of the speeches, letters and journals of the early Morman prophets....In retrospect, I see that this was my education, the one that would matter, the hours I spent sitting at (Tyler's) desk, struggling to parse narrow strands of Morman doctrine in mimicry of a brother who'd deserted me. The skill I was learning was a crucial one, the patience to read things I could not understand.' (p 62 )

But first of all, in the Prologue, as a child, she watches as 'On tne highway below, the school bus rolls past without stopping.' (xiii) Then follows the ordeal of her education.

As an alternative title I would suggest SHRIVEN. She must tell her tale, like the ancient mariner in Coleridge's Rime. Dad is the albatross. Keeping us readers. like the wedding guest, mesmorized.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 19, 2019, 11:34:32 AM

The memoir is the most popular of literary genres. The plaudits on the back cover of my book has Educated in company with Wild and The Glass Castle. The road to Cambridge is wilder than the Pacific crest trail and the scrapyard in Idaho is tougher than anything made of glass.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 19, 2019, 03:22:19 PM

Good afternoon all! I have been waiting with bated breath, to begin this discussion.

Ginny, such a great intro to the beginning of our discussion, and yes, I asked myself over and over, why did she title this book, Educated?

As a retired K-8th grade teacher, mother, grandparent, and religious teacher for over 30 years, I see education through many different prisms. Tara, I feel has manipulated the market, and tricked the buyers, by using a pencil, and the title of the book, Educated, to draw them in, thinking this has to do with "education", as in classroom learning. If a person considering buying this book has no prior knowledge of it, does not read the excerpts, and only goes by the cover, many, like myself as being in education, may instantly want to read it, since as Jonathan has pointed out,

Quote

The memoir is the most popular of literary genres.

Guess we should all heed, “You can never tell a book by its cover.”

Quote

The phrase is attributed to a 1944 edition of the African journal American Speech: “You can't judge a book by its binding.” It was popularized even more when it appeared in the 1946 murder mystery Murder in the Glass Room by Lester Fuller and Edwin Rolfe: “You can never tell a book by its cover.” https://www.google.com/search?q=quote+never+buy+a+book+by+its+cover&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&oq=quote+never+buy+a+book+by+its+cover&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.10804j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I was discussing this book with my neighbor friend, who has taught special needs students in grades 5-6 for almost 40 years. She has not yet read the book. I told her, for someone to write a book and title it Educated, attend Cambridge and Harvard, two of the most prestigious colleges, and earn a PhD in Intellectual History, she seems to me to be "uneducated."

Now in all fairness, I do give her credit for finally leaving Idaho, going to BYU, Trinity College, Cambridge and Harvard. But, and you knew it was coming, what exactly did she learn? Yes, book knowledge, mostly she was interested in history, once she realized her Dad had completely misrepresented the government, and the Illuminati, coming for the neighbors. But other than book knowledge, the entire book seems more focused on telling her family life story. I didn't see it about religion. If anything, the Mormons would not want to be associated with this family, knowing their distorted, evil, controlling and dangerous thinking and actions. The parents refuse medical care in the most extreme times, the mother is giving out healing oils with no licenses.

In Tara's interviews, which I have listened to, and Ginny has pointed out,

Quote

When you listen to her interviews she defends Dad, saying he's got some kind of disorder mentally (bi polar, perhaps?) but loved his children and would never put them in harm's way...

NEVER put them in harm's way???? Are you kidding me???? She tells one dangerous incident after another, where she and her brothers were put in harms way, due to her father's stubbornness, and need to do things his own way.

Just how much can we actually believe of her accounts in the book, when she contradicts herself, in these interviews? Where do I begin, and how long would it take me, to reach an end with my frustrations with her, and this book?

Oh Ginny, you touched on so many issues, that I myself was asking, after reading this book twice, watched her video interviews, and read hundreds, if not thousands of reviews, of not only her family members, but of readers who also have read the book.

I need to stop here, because I can feel my blood pressure boiling. Thank goodness it's National Ice Cream month, and Sunday is National Ice Cream Day, because I intend to cool off with a nice bowl of one of the five flavors my hubby just came home with from Kroger's, who has their half gallon on sale for only $ .99 today and tomorrow.

Before I leave, I will give you an answer to your question, "What would YOU have titled it?"

Abuse.. One Perspective, One Survivor

I have spoken over the years with my siblings, since my parents have died. We all have our own personal perspective, of events that happened in our family/home growing up. As I stated before, I was raised in an abusive home. My mother remarried, after my biological father was killed in a train wreck, when I was just 3 yrs old, second youngest of seven. I refuse to call this man my step-father, because not one of us seven children ever called him anything other than, Bob. He was a drunkard, abuser, and the memories my siblings and I talk about, are usually all in sync, some because they were older, have more memories than myself. No one denies the abuse, no one has different facts of the incidents, we all know what happened, we just might have different emotional scars, depending on the level of abuse we each received individually. I asked my mother one day after I was married, and she was divorced from this man, "Why did you stay with him all those years?" I knew she suffered at the hands of this abuser as well. I have never blamed her, I only needed to ask the question, once I knew we were all grown and safe. Her answer would have never mattered, or changed how much I loved her, because I have been educated, as to why women stay in abusive relationships. I just needed to ask the question.

Unlike Tara, her siblings, or the mother in this book ...I, my siblings, nor our mother, would ever, try to defend or deny, abuse.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 19, 2019, 05:24:29 PM

Oh GOSH what good points and titles! I would never have come up with either.

And your titles and your points actually illuminate several things that make the book especially hard to read. Let's look at that in the next post.

I love those titles. Shriven, indeed, that's a good reason why she wrote the book. That poor child. Abuse: One Perspective, One Survivor, love that one, too. That's it, both of them, in a nutshell.

I can't do better than either.

She strikes me in the video interviews as a very impressive, attractive extremely intelligent young woman. I have a feeling if we met either Mom or Dad we'd not have the same impression. What an awful awful thing to happen to that child, or any child in that situation.

One of the things that I dislike extremely about the book is that it makes me so judgmental of the people in it. We all know nothing "makes" you feel any way, you do that to yourself.

My title for the book would be Ignorant because that's what that family is, to me. I HATE being that judgmental. HATE it.

Using religion as an excuse for their ignorant behavior.. Unfortunately they are not alone in this world, there are multitudes out there just like them. Good heavens, how angry it made me to read it. I was angry FOR her. I'm glad she got out. Why she would ever want to see any of them again is beyond me.

How on earth she manages to say something nice about any of them is beyond me. Why does she?

Because it's the only family she has? The only parents she has?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 19, 2019, 05:28:49 PM

Jonathan:

The road to Cambridge is wilder than the Pacific crest trail and the scrapyard in Idaho is tougher than anything made of glass.

Is the reader supposed to get the impression the scrapyard is tough? Manly men type of thing? The father tells the little girl to get up on top of the fork lift which he knows is unstable to ...I can't even finish this sentence. That's not tough. That's stupid and foolhardy and ignorant....Her matter of fact narration from the POV as a child has us anxiously peering over her shoulder protectively, holding our breath in fear.

It really IS well written, isn't it?

She is the youngest of 7. What strength it must have taken .... I can't imagine.

I believe she can't speak about her mom as she does about Dad because he continually denied there was a problem with the brother while Mom acknowledged it to her but then backed down to Dad. For whatever excuse she then failed to stand up for her daughter. She betrayed her.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 19, 2019, 05:39:25 PM

I see the book as an attempt at reconciliation with her father and the rest of the family. Even with that sadistic brother, Shawn. Tara would like to go home to her beloved Buck's Peak.

I can well imagine all the reader responses. I'm staying away from the reviews and interviews.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 19, 2019, 05:40:13 PM

Jonathan mentions something I had forgotten: the reading of 'Dad's books, which were mostly compilations of the speeches, letters and journals of the early Morman prophets....In retrospect, I see that this was my education, the one that would matter, the hours I spent sitting at (Tyler's) desk, struggling to parse narrow strands of Morman doctrine in mimicry of a brother who'd deserted me. The skill I was learning was a crucial one, the patience to read things I could not understand.' (p 62 )

So SHE turned a sows ear into a silk purse herself, and sees the gold pot under the rainbow (somehow) by trying to learn to read. I spent half the book wondering how the poor child learned to read because she acknowledges that Mom "kind of quit" with the homeschooling and excuses that because she was so busy with 7 kids the essential oils business and all that she just didn't have time. I am sure I wouldn't have had the time either, that's why some children go to public school. That's so poignant about the school bus going by, leaving her behind. Good quote, Jonathan, it's apparent that Dad was once a different person and something turned him nuts.

I read Bellamarie saying, "The parents refuse medical care in the most extreme times, the mother is giving out healing oils with no licenses."

Yes, and she also was a midwife and wanted to stop, with her brain damage from the accident (caused by Dad's insistence) she felt she might cause real harm. She was not up to it. Why did she not stop? We know the reason for that, too, don't we? The proverbial Elephant in the Living Room is Dad, isn't he?

We need to talk more about education, too, and how it might change one, and truth and lies, and so many other things: what a rich rich canvas the author has given us, I will be interested in what you all think about all the provocative questions coming up, if only I can stay dispassionate about the book long enough to do so. :)

Wonderful opening points!

Love it!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 19, 2019, 05:49:11 PM

Bellamarie ends her post saying none of her family would ever deny the abuse in her family.

Jonathan says I see the book as an attempt at reconciliation with her father and the rest of the family. Even with that sadistic brother, Shawn. Tara would like to go home to her beloved Buck's Peak.

I am afraid you've both put your fingers on it. I have a feeling she does want reconciliation with her father and family. Why? Would any of you? Child's life was a combat zone.

What do you think her chances are? Continue to make excuses for Dad or give up and join the snake pit? Play more "games" with Shawn? She can't go home again, can she? Her eyes are that much more opened by what I think she means by "educated."

But is what she said TRUE? Stay tuned for tomorrow's topic but in the meantime please give us your thoughts!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 19, 2019, 08:41:47 PM

There are so many things to talk about it's hard to know where to start. The reaction I felt to the book wasn't anger, it was oppression. After about a quarter of the book, I started feeling like I was under a dark cloud, a kind of indefinite wave of suffocating menace, getting stronger as the book went on. Still, I couldn't put the book down, and eventually the menace seemed to lighten more and more, evaporating as Tara pulled farther and farther from her family, more and more into the real outside world. I don't know if this is how it seemed to Tara, but she somehow got me to feel the mood.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 19, 2019, 10:09:32 PM

Jonathan,

Quote

I see the book as an attempt at reconciliation with her father and the rest of the family. Even with that sadistic brother, Shawn. Tara would like to go home to her beloved Buck's Peak.

She went back to her "beloved Buck's Peak" for her grandmother's funeral, and look how that went. She was snubbed by family members, rejected by her mother, because Tara wanted her to meet her without the Dad, and had to stay with her Aunt Angie, because she was not welcome in her family's home. pg 234-236

Ginny,

Quote

I have a feeling she does want reconciliation with her father and family. Why? Would any of you? Child's life was a combat zone.

She may indeed want reconciliation, but writing this book would be the last way to bring that about. If anything, they have a lawyer speaking on their behalf, who has said:

“Tara’s parents are disappointed Tara would write a book that maligns them, their religion, their country, and homeschooling,” he said.

“The Westovers have hundreds of people that rely on their business, so they’ve instructed me to not let the allegations go unanswered,” Atkin said.

https://www.hjnews.com/preston/news/educated-should-be-read-with-grain-of-salt-says-family/article_0583f217-6fd2-51de-a891-9ca32adb589c.html

Interesting, how he mentions their concerns, are for their business, NOT possible family reconciliation.

Ginny,

Quote

She strikes me in the video interviews as a very impressive, attractive extremely intelligent young woman.

I got quite a different impression of her in the videos, if anything I was shocked at how young, immature and not well educated she seemed. When asked what is next for her, she seemed like a deer in headlights. She mentioned it took her six months to learn how to write this book. I could not believe I heard her correctly, and played that again. After her attending two of the finest colleges in the world, it took her six months on grammar, etc.? I also got the impression in the video interview, she was being very cautious about what she said about her parents, either to not alienate them any more, to defend them, or to not give more credence to a possible defamation of character lawsuit.

PatH.,

Quote

I started feeling like I was under a dark cloud, a kind of indefinite wave of suffocating menace, getting stronger as the book went on.

I actually felt a bit of anxiety, and panic, for the children, Shawn's wife and his children, especially after he slaughtered their dog. One incident after another, of danger lurking. Not to mention wondering when the psychotic brother Shawn, was going to torment Tara for no reason. There were times reading this book I felt like vomiting, from the ugliness and cruelty. It never lightened for me, just when I thought things would be better, it only showed the parents or siblings were trying to deny, control, or demand Tara stay within the fold of the family. Even when she was not living there in Buck's Peak, she could not escape it from her mind.

Ginny, to answer your question, if any of us would want reconciliation, I personally after living in an abused home, resoundingly would answer NO! Once I married, and moved to a new state, I never wanted to see that man, ever again. If anything, I got complete pleasure and closure, testifying against him in court, on behalf of my mother, in their divorce.

Tara, mentioned she went to counseling, any good counselor would help her deal with staying away from toxic people in her life, and love them from afar. I sense she needs ongoing therapy, because her interviews gave me cause to think she is still trapped, in that dysfunctional, sadistic family.

Education is the process of facilitating learning, or the acquisition of knowledge, skills, values, beliefs, and habits.

https://www.google.com/search?q=education&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&oq=education&aqs=chrome..69i57j0j69i65j0l3.4144j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

“knowledge without application is like a book that is never read' Christopher Crawford, Hemel Hempstead.”
― Christopher Crawford
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/application

I feel Tara must now learn how to apply, her education.

Education is an ongoing process, it never ends, even after earning degrees and PhDs....

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 20, 2019, 10:02:28 AM

Wow, what great points here this morning, thank you both.

I agree, Pat, and I loved your coming into the light type of lessening of oppression, it's almost like a horror story, isn't it, you keep screaming at the woman in the old movies who hears a noise NOT to light the candle and go out there, but of course she does and so do you, too, along, fearfully.

Yes it's quite a roller coaster ride.

I spent some time thinking about it last night and wanting to say something positive about the book, in the interest of not being oppressive about it, myself. . I can't truly think of anything positive about the family except the one brother who did reach out to her and support her and the friend Charles who backed her up about "Shawn," and if that name is not spelled correctly I can put in his real name. I don't feel any obligation to cover him up from public censure.

I couldn't remember how the book started, and finally did, and both Jonathan and Bellamarie have mentioned her beloved Bucks Peak, poor child. You find comfort wherever you can , don't you? So that's how it starts, a child's memory of what's good and strong and comforting. A mountain.

But in the interest of fair play we need to try to present all sides. Here is Bellamarie's question du jour, what do you think?

After reading the book twice, and listening to two interviews of Tara Westover, and reading hundreds of reviews, then reading an article where her older brother does not agree with her memories, her parents and other siblings say she is more or less fabricating incidents, and their lawyer has said, "Although “there’s a little germ of truth,” in “Educated,” the book falsely portrays the Westover family, Atkin said"

“My hope is that people will read the book with a little grain of salt,” Atkin said.

https://www.hjnews.com/preston/news/educated-should-be-read-with-grain-of-salt-says-family/article_0583f217-6fd2-51de-a891-9ca32adb589c.html

First, let me identify myself. I am Tyler Westover, brother number three in this book. In her book, in numerous places, Tara interprets for me and other members of my family things that we did, said, thought, and even felt. I cannot speak for the other members of my family, but in my case I think in many instances she greatly incorrectly conveyed my experiences. In the interest of a balanced viewpoint, it seems that I should at least attempt to share a part of my perspective, while still supporting her as much as I can. I do recognize this is her memoir, and she describes her experiences from her paradigm. However, it seems reasonable for me to explain my perspective and outline events that demonstrate the validity of my perspective, in my review."

https://www.goodreads.com/questions/1337824-i-saw-mentioned-that-tyler-westover-has

My question is this: When an author writes a memoir, it is nonfiction, yet admits inside the book, she is not present when something happens, and gets bits and pieces from others, or that "THIS IS HOW SHE SEES IT HAPPENED", how is the reader to believe any, or all of her accounts, when those who were present, disputes her?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 20, 2019, 10:27:45 AM

Here's my reaction to that, an excellent excellent question. and one of the difficult ones we need to ask.

First I believe every word she's written about her own observations. What she actually saw, the primary history she lived. I always do believe every word. It's her story as she felt it and lived it and that's all she's writing. That's all anybody can write.

As we all know in relating history there are three kinds of sources: primary, secondary and tertiary.

Primary is what the person writing actually lived, saw, and experienced. Secondary is what others write or say about it who did not actually experience that very same event.. Tertiary is what others analyze it as.

So her primary testimony to me is accurate, in that it's what she felt, saw, and expressed the best she can. But then how can two primary sources which disagree differ? Memory is a tricky thing, that's been proven recently our childhood memories (GASP!) may in fact not be accurate. (Try telling THAT to anybody, but it's true, they find.) Three people can personally have experienced one event and got something different emotionally or whatever out of it. A room full of people burst in on will NOT agree in almost any way on how the person who burst in looked or what he wore or did.

So this is her memory, her life. It's how she felt. She's entitled. In a normal family surely after all these years somebody would say Oh I'm so sorry, so sorry for your hurt and anger ...no...she is "possessed of a demon," according to her mother. There is real ignorance in that family, versus what real education is, enlightenment, and I don't care how much money they make or how, that is profound Ignorance with a capital I, and there's nothing religious or justifiable about it. It's frightening, isn't it? Ignorance and want, so it goes we always have with us, but as the Ghost of Christmas Present told Scrooge, beware the boy (Ignorance) the most.

I am not surprised she looks a bit nervous in interviews. I can imagine the backlash and vitriol coming at her day and night from the nut cases of Buck's Peak, her own support group, their fans and every other nut case on earth. She has had nothing at all to back her up but the one brother who seemed to be backing off from the backlash and the outsider, her date, "Charles," who was the only one to dare to say that Shawn's game was abnormal. And it made all the difference to her. This kind of Ignorance and abuse depends on secrecy and isolation. FAUGH.

I mean let's face it folks, when your own mother in 2019 says you are possessed of a demon, wouldn't you be nervous facing cameras and criticism? I certainly would. It takes a tremendous amount of strength to do what she's doing. Where did she get that? From dear old mom n dad? No from surviving somehow their....ARGGGH

And I agree, Bellamaire, if she DOES want reconciliation this is absolutely the worst way in the world to go about it, but what else can she do really? She has tried. They won't listen. And she is angry and she should be. She sees that not everybody in the world actually lives like these cretins (that's part of being "educated" ), and yes there may be some payback here, she's exposing their Walton facade as just that.

MAYBE she hopes Fair Dad will finally BE educated and see the light. I wouldn't hold my breath because I think he's seen it all his life.

And how revolting it is to have to be this judgmental but what can ANYBODY do faced with this mess? Is there anything except her which is remotely praise worthy? Help me with this. THEY, all of them, to this book hire a lawyer (and as Bellamarie says, they seem strangely (really?) more interested in their business than her) and put it down to demons? I ask you.

What justification can any of us offer for any of this? Is there a bright light (other than the author herself) to come out of this?

As for the Secondary sources, the differing opinions, if primary sources disagree then why wouldn't secondary sources?

So who can you trust?

And of course the Essential Oils people need to spin to try to hang on to their...facade. I don't believe one word any of them say, because other outsiders who have seen some of this (like Charles) have added the stability of shock reactions that a normal person if there is such a thing would have at their behavior.

I believe her, all the way. If I could, I'd put an arm around her in those interviews, but she doesn't need me, I'd be the one shaking up there, not her, she'd have to hold me up.

WONDERFUL question and one being raised continually about other things, too, which I hope we can get into also.

What do YOU think? About any or all of this?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 20, 2019, 10:53:57 AM

And one more:

Bellamarie said, "
I feel Tara must now learn how to apply, her education."

I think that's exactly what she's done in Educated.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 20, 2019, 12:33:03 PM

That's a super question, Bellamarie, the central problem of reading a memoir. And here the story is told by someone who, whatever version you believe, is describing a childhood full of traumatic events, the hardest to remember correctly, especially if you are yourself in shock or pain.

Tara is very aware of this problem, as a historian should be. She distrusts her childhood journals. When Shawn fell off the pallet and suffered a serious head injury, the doctors said his personality might change, and he had shown some violent tendencies. How much was this a change in this sadistic tormentor?

Page 131

Quote

Reflecting on it now, I'm not sure the injury changed him that much, but I convinced myself that it had, and that any cruelty on his part was entirely new. I can read my journals from this period and trace the evolution--of a young girl rewriting her history. In the reality she constructed for herself nothing had been wrong before her brother fell off that pallet. I wish I had my best friend back, she wrote. Before his injury, I never got hurt at all.

More after I take a break.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 20, 2019, 12:41:25 PM

'Is there a bright light (other than the author herself) to come out of this?'

Of course there is. But first...such amazing posts. The family must be in a turmoil. Going to court would be foolish. I think Tara's story is an appeal for forgiveness all around.

The poor soul. She's homesick. But there is a streak of stubborn pride. God bless her.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 20, 2019, 01:49:30 PM

Ginny,

Quote

As we all know in relating history there are three kinds of sources: primary, secondary and tertiary.

Thank you for the information you provided on relating history, and the three sources. Sad to admit, we all don't know this, or at least, I sure didn't. I must say, I just got an education! :)

Ginny,

Quote

First I believe every word she's written about her own observations. What she actually saw, the primary history she lived. I always do believe every word. It's her story as she felt it and lived it and that's all she's writing. That's all anybody can write.

I believe her, all the way.

I presented this particular question about what can we believe and what is possibly fabricated or embellished, because as I read the book, Tara herself was contradicting things. I am a huge believer that non fiction should deal factually, not supposition or imagination. You can not speak and say, how another person thinks or feels, unless they have told you directly, these are indeed their thoughts and feelings. Tara has crossed this line, numerous times.

The entire story of Luke being set on fire, for me is inconsistent, and full of her imagining what happened, yet on pg. 68 Tara writes,

"I remember that lunch with unsettling clarity.

Then on pg. 73

"Now, at age twenty-nine, I sit down to write, to reconstruct the incident from the echoes and shouts of a tired memory. I scratch it out. When I get to the end, I pause. There's an inconsistency, a ghost in this story. I read it. I read it again. And there it is. Who put out the fire? A long-dormant voice says, Dad did. But Luke was alone when I found him. If Dad had been with Luke on the mountain, he would have brought him to the house, would have treated the burn. Dad was away on a job somewhere, that's why Luke had had to get himself down the mountain. Why his leg had been treated by a ten year old. Why it had ended up in a garbage can. I decide to ask Richard. He's older than I, and has a sharper memory. I call.... he remember the spilled gasoline. I ask how Luke managed to put out the fires and get himself down the mountain, given that he was in shock when I found him. Dad was with him, Richard says flatly. Right. Then why wasn't Dad at the house? Richard says, Because Luke had run through the weeds and set the mountain afire. So Dad put Luke in the truck and told him to drive to the house, to Mother. Only Mother was gone. Right.

I think it over for a few days, then sit back down to write... On the mountain something is happening. I can only imagine it but I see it clearly, more clearly than if it were a memory.

I am confused, Tara says, she "can only imagine" [/i], and in the same sentence says, "I see it clearly."

Here is where the entire Luke incident, becomes Tara's imagined version. I don't doubt Luke was set afire. I doubt Tara, other than what she pieces together from what she heard, or imagined, has NO idea what actually happened.

The cars are stacked and waiting, their fuel tanks ruptured and drained. Dad waves at a tower of cars and says, "Luke, cut off those tanks, yeah?" And Luke says, "Sure thing, Dad." Luke lays the torch against his hip and strikes flint. Flames erupt from nowhere and take him. He screams, fumbles with the twine, screams again, and takes off through the weeds.

Dad chases him, orders him to stand still. It's probably the first time in his whole life that Luke doesn't do something when Dad is telling him to. Luke is fast but Dad is smart. He takes a shortcut through a pyramid of cars and tackles Luke, slamming him to the ground. I can't picture what happens next, because nobody every told me how Dad put out the fire on Luke's leg.

I try to imagine the moment of decision. Dad looks at the weeds which are burning fast, thirsty for flame in that quivering heat. He looks at his son. He thinks if he can choke the flames while they're young, he can prevent a wildfire, maybe save the house. Luke seems lucid. His brain hasn't processed what's happening; the pain hasn't set in. The Lord will provide, I imagine Dad thinking. God left him conscious.

I imagine Dad praying aloud, his eyes drawn heavenward, as he carries his son to the truck and sets him in the driver's seat. Dad shifts the engine into first, the truck starts its roll. It's going at a good speed now, Luke is gripping the wheel. Dad jumps from the moving truck, hits the ground hard and rolls, then runs back toward the brushfire, which has spread wider and grown taller. The Lord will provide, he chants, then he takes off his shirt and begins to beat back the flames.

* Since the writing of this story, I have spoken to Luke about the incident. His account differs from mine and Richard's. Dad took Luke to the house, administered a homeopathic for shock, then put him in a tub of cold water, where he left him to go fight the fire. This goes against my memory, and against Richard's. Still, perhaps our memories are in error. Perhaps I found Luke in a tub, alone, rather on the grass. What everyone agrees upon, strangely, is that somehow Luke ended up on the front lawn, his leg in a garbage can.[/size] pg. 75

Tara has spoken for, thought for, and felt for her Dad and Luke throughout this entire incident, without ever being present. This is called, "fiction." The only thing she could honestly account for is when she found Luke, and she is not even sure about that. Richard was not there when Luke was set afire, so again, she is calling someone who can only go by what he was told, or saw once Luke was at the house.

There are so many other places throughout the book where I found discrepancies. So, while I trust Tara believes what she wrote, even she admits to her inconsistencies, uses her imagination as her source, and admits to possibly being incorrect.

Jonathan, You are a sweet and endearing man, and I think you would forgive Tara if you were her father, sight unseen. I sense that Tara has, and will continue to return to Buck's Peak, since she has Aunt Angie there to visit. With a constant reminder of all she lived through, and knowing her parents have ostracized her, I can't even imagine wanting to be back with them. What could you see changing should she return to her family fold? No one has changed, but possibly Tara. Shawn would still target her with his violence, her parents will never admit wrong doing, to do so, would harm their "million dollar business." Her other siblings relying on their parents for work and income are not going to go against them, to welcome Tara into their homes. ONLY if and until Tara is willing to include her father, and live by their sadistic life ideals, will she be considered back into the home. That is NOT going to happen. She has been, "Educated." Once you learn something, you don't unlearn it. You may not always apply it, or use it every day, but you have that knowledge to always draw from.

Interesting how you think,

Quote

Tara's story is an appeal for forgiveness all around.

I can't ever imagine her family seeing this story other than what their lawyer has spoken for them, "maligns them, their religion, their country, and homeschooling,”

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 20, 2019, 03:08:36 PM

PatH.,

Quote

And here the story is told by someone who, whatever version you believe, is describing a childhood full of traumatic events, the hardest to remember correctly, especially if you are yourself in shock or pain.

Giving the knowledge of what all Tara has lived through, I would not expect her to have complete clarity in all incidents, although she states she does have "unsettling clarity", then admits to imagining how things happened. She speaks, feels and thinks for others, which as her brother stated:

First, let me identify myself. I am Tyler Westover, brother number three in this book. In her book, in numerous places, Tara interprets for me and other members of my family things that we did, said, thought, and even felt. I cannot speak for the other members of my family, but in my case I think in many instances she greatly incorrectly conveyed my experiences. In the interest of a balanced viewpoint, it seems that I should at least attempt to share a part of my perspective, while still supporting her as much as I can. I do recognize this is her memoir, and she describes her experiences from her paradigm. However, it seems reasonable for me to explain my perspective and outline events that demonstrate the validity of my perspective, in my review."

I don't question Tara lived through a horrendous childhood, but she has graduated from two of the most prestigious colleges in the world, she has studied history, she said she spent six months learning "how" to write this book, after earning her PhD. She tells us she has gone through counseling, and obviously felt ready to tell the world her story. So, if anything, I as a reader, would expect her memior/ non-fiction, to not have embellishments, fabrications, suppositions or imaginations, to be sources for the incidents that happened. There are standards a writer should follow when writing a book, labeling it non-fiction. I don't want to appear to be hard on her, but as I read the book, many times throughout it, I called foul play, when I saw contradictions, inconsistencies, and her creating imaginary stories, in place of real life facts.

As a reader, I expect non fiction, to not have fictitious parts in it, where the writer admits she is creating the scenario from her imagination, especially when it deals with other family members, whose characters can be brought into question.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 20, 2019, 06:23:25 PM

Forgiving Tara...sight unseen. Have I been taken in by this extraordinary piece of writing? Is she avengeing herself for having been demonized by her father? What was her purpose in telling the world about a sorry family turmoil? Did she feel a need to unburden herself? She has certainly succeeded. Has she added coals to the fire? She faces the prospect of being taken to court for damage done to the reputation of a respected family.

Bellamarie, you are one close reader. You make a good case for your argument. But I'm going to stick with my view of seeing the book as an olive branch to her father. An extraordinary man. She needs her father. He should be made to see that. He has let her down.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 20, 2019, 06:42:04 PM

I agree, Jonathan.

I think you raise some very good points, Bellamarie, I noticed them, too, but I got a different impression from them.

But first Pat brings up this:

And here the story is told by someone who, whatever version you believe, is describing a childhood full of traumatic events, the hardest to remember correctly, especially if you are yourself in shock or pain.

When a person is experiencing terrible shock and trauma (and this IS a child, after all), then my understanding is that their perceptions are really (as seen in the classic psychological test of a room full of adults when somebody bursts in threatening them) not objective at all. Objective being what a robot would have recorded as truth. Their reactions and memories of the very same event are personal and amazingly different to each person, they are subjective. We can't say they aren't true? They are true to them, they are their truth, no matter what anybody else says at the moment, afterwards perhaps one tries to reconstruct what might or must have happened. I think Dad and Luke and the fire is a perfect example and you've put your finger right on it, that's a good one.

Dad is the "ghost" here. She doesn't remember seeing him. She, with her need to make him the hero would remember that. I think the fact she does not is that he was not there. Richard says of course he was there, he took him home, did this and that and then heroically went out to fight the fire. She does not remember that. And THAT is a lot to forget, isn't it?

Dad apparently lacked the presence of mind to pick up the phone and call an ambulance after putting "homeopathic" salves on the burns... I can't tell you ...I can't even continue this thought. THAT was seen to be normal and natural in this circus in which that child grew up.

To me, here, this revision is not any sort of fiction except that she can't even believe her own child self, she has such a need to make Dad OK. She consistently appears to exonerate her father from any and all blame, (so that she can be reconciled? So that since everybody in that entire family does under pressure or fear exactly what he says no matter what it is, or how outrageous, then yes, she now dutifully records in her book, her ultimate and apparently only courtroom for justice, what others say here?) To me, that's the most honest reaction anybody could have. It was such a shock, Dad is a ghost, she does not "remember," most significantly his helping at all. But she dutifully records it as Richard said it.

Apparently Dad was once a happy man too, she remembers that. Apparently Shawn her friend , poor child, was once happy, too but then the brain damage not once, how many times did he experience severe head injury? Wouldn't anybody with half a brain think that IF he's experiencing psychotic episodes (apparently only with children and the less powerful girls he encounters, right?) then perhaps something other than an oil might be applied?

??
What other inconsistencies have you seen, bellamarie? You have read the book twice, and closely. I could only stomach it once. I could not put it down, I was VERY glad to see her triumphant ending, but I also now can't pick it back up and desperately want to say something positive about SOMETHING in it.

On Brother Tyler speaking out, I read that, too, and I wondered at the time about his change of attitude. Isn't Tyler the one who went back into the family business? Spokesman, is he now for them?

Just saying.

Why is everybody so taken with this book, do you all think?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 20, 2019, 10:33:55 PM

Jonathan,

Quote

But I'm going to stick with my view of seeing the book as an olive branch to her father. An extraordinary man. She needs her father. He should be made to see that. He has let her down.

I admire you for sticking by your conviction, and I will respectfully agree to disagree, with your views. Olive branch, hmmm.... for me, it's more like this book, is an entire Conifer tree, she speaks of in her first paragraph, has fallen on the entire family. "the heavy conifers trees sway slowly"

I am just not seeing this "extraordinary man" you see her father as. Throughout the book she is blaming her father for everything, that has gone wrong with the family. Every incident, she points out, it is because he used bad judgement, demanded things be done his way, and controlled the mother. I can't imagine a man like him ever changing, especially after she has made their entire life a mockery to the world. I do agree with you on the fact, "he let her down." She may feel as if she needs him in her life, but the likelihood of that happening, seems next to impossible. He is not a man who seems capable of change, he time and time again, put his children in harm's way, watched them be injured, suffered pain, as well as himself and his wife, and yet as soon as he could, he repeated his behavior. He refused to believe Tara, when she finally told him about the abuse she suffered from Shawn. He demands she apologize for not mentioning she was home schooled, giving them some credit, for her success in graduating BYU.

I actually thought for a short moment, when Tara's father and mother came to visit her at college, he had seen the light. But it turns out he was there to stop her from going to Cambridge.

pg. 250 He disapproved of my going to Cambridge. "Our ancestors risked their lives to cross the ocean, to escape those socialist countries. And what do you do? You turn around and go back?"

We learn even more, of why he did not want her to go to Cambridge, when he and her mother go with her to the airport.

pg. 251 It was as if Dad wanted to give me until the last second to change my mind. We walked in silence. When we arrived at security I hugged them both and said good-bye. I removed my shoes, laptop, camera, then I passed through the checkpoint, reassembled my pack, and headed for the terminal.

It was only then that I glanced back and saw Dad, still standing at the checkpoint, watching me walk away, his hands in his pockets, his shoulders slumping, his mouth slackened. I waved and he stepped forward, as if to follow, and I was reminded of the moment, years before, when power lines had covered the station wagon, with Mother inside it, and Dad had stood next to her, exposed.

He was still holding that position when I turned the corner. That image of my father will always stay with me; that look on his face, of love and fear and loss. I knew why he was afraid. He'd let it slip my last night on Buck's Peak, the same night he'd said he wouldn't come to see me graduate. "If you're in America," he'd whispered, "we can come for you. Where ever you are. I've got a thousand gallons of fuel buried in the field. I can fetch you when The End comes, bring you home, make you safe. But if you cross the ocean. . . "

Reading this, truly brought tears to my eyes. Her father was vulnerable, fearful, loving, caring, exposed, he was a parent needing to know he could rescue his daughter if time called for it. In his own distorted beliefs of the world coming to an end, he needed his family to be together. This just might be the only part in the book that showed me the reader, how much he truly loved Tara.

So, yes, Jonathan, he did let her down in many ways, put her in danger many times, but as a father, you can see better than me, the relationship between a father and daughter. I had no father to understand these dynamics. Thank you for being a part of this discussion, we need a father's point of view.

Maybe, just maybe, she does need her father. Sadly, I don't see much hope for this relationship to reunite, but then never is a long time, and love can endure all things. They are a Christian family, who believes in forgiveness. In her own words, "The Lord will provide."

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 21, 2019, 12:21:01 AM

Ginny,

Quote

To me, here, this revision is not any sort of fiction except that she can't even believe her own child self, she has such a need to make Dad OK.

I appreciate your take on the entire creation of Luke's incident, but the only problem with your theory, is Tara admits she "Imagines" what happened. She creates a complete scenario in her mind, of what each person felt, said, thought and did, even though she was not even there. That is fiction, regardless as to why she chose to invent this story, be it to make her father the hero, or any other reason, by the mere definition of "fiction."

fiction. A fiction is a deliberately fabricated account of something. It can also be a literary work based on imagination rather than on fact, like a novel or short story. The Latin word fictus means “to form,” which seems like a good source for the English word fiction, since fiction is formed in the imagination.

https://www.google.com/search?q=definition+of+fiction+in+literature&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&oq=definition+of+fiction&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0l5.9048j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I just came across an interview of Tara, and found this interesting:

You write with the flair of a novelist. How did you learn that?

Everything I wrote at the beginning was awful. Then I became obsessed with the New Yorker fiction podcast.You can hear these wonderful things like Margaret Atwood reading a Mavis Gallant story and then she and Deborah Treisman, the New Yorker fiction editor, will discuss why it works. They’ll bring up all these weird little things that writers do that make it much easier to say – “Yeah, I can do that too”.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/feb/17/tara-westover-education-interview-i-was-13-when-i-first-went-to-another-childs-house

So she became, "obsessed with the New Yorker fiction podcast."

I'm not saying her entire book is fiction. Yes, there are other parts I flagged, where she admits, she imagines this or that, and speaks, feels and thinks for others.

Ginny,

Quote

You have read the book twice, and closely. I could only stomach it once.

Yes, I did read the book twice. I first read the book earlier, before you had decided to have it as our July mini discussion. I was lucky enough to get it from my library, finished it, and passed it on to my friend, who is in an online book club and they were going to discuss it. She was on the waiting list at the library, #54, so she was really excited I could pass mine on to her, and she returned it to the library for me. When you announced Educated would be our July mini discussion, I knew there was no chance I was going to get a copy from my library. This book is as you know, is a very popular read. So, I bought the book, skimmed through it, making post it notes, where I felt was interesting to discuss, and all the discrepancies, inconsistencies, contradictions, and parts she was making up from her imagination, and where she would footnote, saying she could be incorrect.

I understand a child who has been traumatized can distort things, block things, reconstruct incidents, etc, etc. As I have said before, I am a child from a dysfunctional, abusive home. Who better to understand how a memory works, from being raised in a home like this, even though every person experiences their own personal trauma, and has their own individual scars and perceptions. But, I can honestly tell you, that I would NEVER reconstruct any incident that happened in my life, admitting it is from my imagination, write it in a book, that would reach worldwide readers, and possibly damage any of my family's characters.

For me, that is unthinkable, cruel, selfish, and a fraud. It's bad enough any child/family would have to live through even half of what Tara says happened in their home, but to write a book about it, when you admit you can't count on your own memory, seems irresponsible, and for the publisher to allow it to go to print, and be sold as non-fiction, knowing there are fictitious parts in the book, is unethical, in my opinion.

From the same interview as above:

How do you feel about this very personal book being published?
I am already in pre-emptive therapy with a brand new therapist. You probably think I’m joking but I’m not. I told him, “I’m fine right now but in two weeks when this book comes out I might be freaking out.”

I'm glad to know she is still in therapy.

Jonathan, I found this and wanted to share it with you. It's from the same interview as above.

Can you see yourself becoming reconciled with them?
I will always hope that we might be reconciled, and I hope for the sake of my brother’s wife and family that he’s mellowed and changed. But while I’ll always watch for signs that the family culture has shifted away from secrets and enabling, I don’t wait for them.

Do you miss your family?
I miss them every day, but I can also feel comfortable with my decision not to have them in my life.

I wish just one person in all the interviews she has done, would ask her, "Have you reported the abuse to the authorities, to protect Shawn's wife and children?" Or, "Do you know if Child Protective Services has ever investigated, or looked into any possible abuse with Shawn's family?"

Whether Shawn has a mental illness, schizophrenia, brain damage, or a narcissist, he is an abuser, and a danger to his family, and any one else around him. Tara knows her parents, and some siblings are in denial, or out right defend and protect Shawn. I wonder, before she wrote this book, years back when she left home, after confronting the parents, realized the dangers, after Shawn slaughtered the dog, did she do anything to bring attention to Shawn's violence to the authorities? I'm not holding her accountable, or responsible for Shawn's actions, I just am curious as to whether any investigations have taken place, or any reports filed.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 21, 2019, 09:40:27 AM

Good morning, Everybody! Having been awakened at 3 am with the extremely negative emotions this family seems to bring out in me I decided I was determined today to veer now (I feel they've had their 15 seconds of fame with me, 14 too many), to the positives and what I suddenly discovered at 3 am must surely be the message of the book, even in answer to Jonathan's question which I just now have seen (this is in edit) the purpose of it, otherwise why would so many people love it?

Love it or hate it? What, I asked myself at 3 am, IS there to love?

Turns out there's a lot.

But first, Bellamarie, I can see that you feel strongly this is a work in places of fiction, and you've provided definitions and much proof. I don't see it the same, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion which I won't argue with.

You do raise a lot of good questions. To this one: did she do anything to bring attention to Shawn's violence to the authorities? I'm not holding her accountable, or responsible for Shawn's actions, I just am curious as to whether any investigations have taken place, or any reports filed.

I hope there have been, I doubt any exist. What's her physical proof? She has no physical proof of her own issues, the dog disappeared, and everybody says she is lying. Even now. And as in so many domestic violence issues what can the police do if everybody says it didn't happen. The headlines are full of why something was not reported at the time, it seems. Maybe the lesson here for all of us is report now repent later.

On this: He was still holding that position when I turned the corner. That image of my father will always stay with me; that look on his face, of love and fear and loss. I knew why he was afraid. He'd let it slip my last night on Buck's Peak, the same night he'd said he wouldn't come to see me graduate. "If you're in America," he'd whispered, "we can come for you. Where ever you are. I've got a thousand gallons of fuel buried in the field. I can fetch you when The End comes, bring you home, make you safe. But if you cross the ocean. . . "

Again I think you may have put your finger on something, here is what does seem to be an expression of love.

What struck me when I read it, perhaps I was numbed by that point, is the 1,000 gallons buried in the field. That's illegal here, and I thought, everywhere. It raised some other questions for me which I had all though the book. No records. Scrap yard. Own a car. And shockingly, they have a computer, a phone, a TV, thus electricity. So not quite as primitive as we're led to believe. I was very surprised at that, but I shouldn't have been because the POV here is of the child's impressions. No paperwork no records of birth for many of the kids. I wondered throughout the last half of the book if taxes are paid or if in fact they are also buried in the back yard. She MAY here have exposed more than we think. But enough about them.

I'd like to look today at the incredible message that somehow gets downplayed in the sinkhole of this dysfunctional family so that it doesn't get downplayed in this discussion, and I think it's because of the matter of fact way she writes.....

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 21, 2019, 10:03:21 AM

Let's discuss the soaring positive luminous thing out of all this which she downplays as if it were normal: her rise. Her many achievements, modestly downplayed as if a matter of fact everyday accomplishment. All this and STILL she rises.

Somehow, despite even being provided with proof she exists, without any education at all, she manages to take the ACT, pass it, go to Brigham Young University, graduate with honors, go to talk to an advisor and be advised to try for Cambridge, she can do university work and she qualifies, gets the scholarship and graduates from Cambridge University, surely one of the top universities in the world, with a PhD.

AND write a bestselling book.

Surely THAT is anybody's idea of incredible achievement! And she's so young.

How? What do you think allowed her to do this? What sort of characteristic or dedication? How did she teach herself to READ? To do advanced math which she says is like a language in itself, I loved that.

Where did this severely marginalized child get the...the wherewithal, the inner strength, the dedication, the mind boggles, it really does because she has literally thousands of "sisters" in this world, not related to her, under similar dire circumstances, who try but never rise from the dreariness and duplication of their circumstances, what on earth would it take to do this? What characteristics?

What enables some people to achieve as incredibly she has? I believe that's the message: you can overcome whatever, you can rise, but it will cost you if you're involved in this cult like kind of upbringing. Her achievement is an inspiration to anybody oppressed by circumstances, isn't it?

I think it's this quality of the book which lifts it into the "Love it" category.

What do you think?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 21, 2019, 10:39:41 AM

Jonathan, what a great topic du jour, also!

Somehow I missed this entire post and it's a great one:

Forgiving Tara...sight unseen. Have I been taken in by this extraordinary piece of writing? Is she avengeing herself for having been demonized by her father? What was her purpose in telling the world about a sorry family turmoil? Did she feel a need to unburden herself? She has certainly succeeded. Has she added coals to the fire? She faces the prospect of being taken to court for damage done to the reputation of a respected family.

Extraordinary is right. Since I just saw this I need to go think more about her purpose in writing this, but I agree it's extraordinary, it may in fact be more extraordinary than we first thought. I just read something totally unconnected with this which may in fact add something to the table, I must go find it.

I would love to see this go to court, she's not without witnesses and in a court all of our witnesses now have to tell the truth, right?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 21, 2019, 11:00:09 AM

Wow, so many different issues to tackle. I still have a final section of yesterday's discussion to post, and Bellamarie raises so many interesting questions, then Ginny starts a whole new major question. I want to be like Stephen Leacock's hero, who "leaped on his horse and rode off in all directions".

Some little things: I doubt she tried to report Shawn's violence. If she had, the family uproar it would cause would have been too major not to be part of the story.

Bellamarie, I saw the same thing you did in that interview. Tara knows perfectly well that reconciliation won't happen, but she still can't help longing for it. You could just hear that longing in her voice.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 21, 2019, 11:26:22 AM

'Where did this severely marginalized child get the...the wherewithal, the inner strength, the dedication, the mind boggles...What enables some people to achieve as incredibly she has?'

Good questions, Ginny. I find the answer in her using her experience and her reason. She has in fact become an Illuminati, that bugbear of her father's tortured mind, which depends on revelation.

I loved your posts, Bellamarie. All I can say is that this book is beyond fiction. It's into parable or some such thing. Much can be learned from it. And the family should be satisfied as long as she shares the royalties. Can the family get back together? It will be Tara's doing.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 21, 2019, 02:05:37 PM

(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Educated.jpg)

Good Afternoon all! I must say, I slept like a baby. This book troubled me the first time I read it, much like you mention Ginny, but the second time around, I was more or less depicting it, for discussion sake. Things did not add up in places, and so yes, my book looks like confetti with all the different colors of post-it notes hanging from it. My hubby laughed at me and said, "You have a lot of notes there." :)

PLEASE, don't ever feel because I have a strong point of view on anything about this book, I am trying to sway anyone else's point or view, or argue with anyone. According to my Ancestry.com results I got in my email this morning, I am 38% Italian descent, and we are very passionate people. I love other's different points of view. I was on the debate team in high school, my teachers loved my passion, and how I could prompt others to respond to valid points. This is where I learned to "agree to disagree." This book has brought out emotions in me, some good, some not so good. Love it or hate it has been mentioned several times, I can't say I feel either of those emotions, I see it more as sad, disgusting, raw, with a few glimpses of rays of light pressing through the cracks of this dark house.

I did read an interview that would help us with the house and area in Buck's Peak:

"What she calls off the grid in a compound was actually house on a farm with City Water and Power. (It's inside city limits not on top of the mountain.)"

Keep in mind, her family had a television, telephone, computer, internet service, along with AOL. She is not isolated, she is taking dance, piano lessons and has the lead role in the play Annie.

Ginny,

Quote

Somehow, despite even being provided with proof she exists, without any education at all, she manages to take the ACT, pass it, go to Brigham Young University, graduate with honors, go to talk to an advisor and be advised to try for Cambridge, she can do university work and she qualifies, gets the scholarship and graduates from Cambridge University in the UK with a PhD.

AND write a bestselling book.

Surely THAT is anybody's idea of incredible achievement! And she's so young.

'Where did this severely marginalized child get the...the wherewithal, the inner strength, the dedication, the mind boggles...What enables some people to achieve as incredibly she has?'

Jonathan,

Quote

I find the answer in her using her experience and her reason.

Well, these are questions myself, and thousands of others have wondered after reading the book.

Ginny,

Quote

Let's discuss the soaring positive luminous thing out of all this which she downplays as if it were normal: her rise. Her many achievements, modestly downplayed as if a matter of fact everyday accomplishment. All this and STILL she rises. How? What do you think allowed her to do this? What sort of characteristic or dedication? How did she teach herself to READ? To do advanced math which she says is like a language in itself, I loved that.

She says in the book, Tyler, her mother and even her father helped teach her, Math and Trigonometry. At the age of fifteen, she bought the ACT book and did not recognize symbols, and asked her mother, "What is this?" "Math says her Mother." When her mother could not help her with Trig, she goes to her Dad, who apparently is way more educated than to be believed, because he solves the problem without even understanding the method to use.

What I felt was ironic throughout the whole schooling part of the book, is...she goes from not knowing how to read, not knowing Math, no public school education, to buying an ACT guidebook at the age of fifteen, shows up to take the ACT test and is confused as to the bubble fill in. She fails the first ACT test, studies again and aces it, is accepted to Brigham Young University, then being accepted to study abroad at Cambridge at the age of seventeen, then it's on to Harvard, with a lot of traveling to London, Paris, Rome and even a quick trip to the Middle Eastern desert.

We all know that it takes more than two short years to achieve these goals, all the while you are taking piano/dance classes, acting in plays, working endless hours in the junkyard, being injured, helping with the oils, assisting her mother with mid wife, and dating, unless you are Einstein. Which we know she is NOT, because after graduating two of the finest colleges in the world, earning a PhD, it takes her six months to learn how to write a book, by listening to the New Yorker fiction podcast.

I'm sorry, it's a lot for me to accept, an uneducated child, at the age of fifteen, living through the most traumatic experiences in her life, one after another, only two years, to accomplish what it takes a normal person who has gone through school teaching, years to learn. I hate to be the Debbie Downer, pessimist, unbeliever, yet again, but my common sense tells me this just does not ring true, especially when she does not want to reveal she was home schooled, at her graduation, or, give any credit to the family members who in the book she says, helped educate her.

She has indeed accomplished many goals in her short years of life, in spite of the trauma she grew up in. I will give her that, but as my wise mother always told me, "Believe half of what you hear, and if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

This is indeed a best seller. But I have to ask, were we sold a false bill of goods?

Her family says, yes. Tara does not mention her brother Shawn abusing her until she is a teenager. She infers it could be, he is not comfortable with her growing up. When you think about it, her story really does not cover her younger years much. She says her older brothers seems to have grown up in a different house than she did, yet she takes liberty in the book to speak, think and feel for them. Tyler encourage her to go to school, take the ACT test, go to college, move away and helped her learn math. When he was home for a visit and Shawn was abusing Tara, he stopped it, gave her his car keys and told her to take his car and leave. She refers to Shawn as her best friend until he begins the abuse. One brother says in a review:

"She says that he's (Father) against doctors but half of my siblings were born in the hospital. We also were taken to the hospital for broken arms, broken legs, and hernia surgery, eye doctor appointments all were accidents not work related but swing off swing sets extra ... We went to the dentist regularly and all that needed braces had braces. We had the choice of going to school or being home schooled. Some of my siblings chose to go to school some of us were home schooled."

I am just so confused! With the injuries Tara describes she and family members suffered from, the deformities, with no modern day medical treatment, only pathogenic oils to heal them, I could never imagine some of them still walking, being able to see, or even able to function in every day life, let alone go out in public, or continue to mid wife, travel to visit her in college, run a scrap yard business, or become a multi million dollar oil business, with all the head injuries, mental illness, brain damages etc.

The other point I would like to make is how Tara throughout the book gave the impression her father was the controller of everyone. Yet, her mother sneaks behind his back, orders a telephone, buys a computer, gets internet service and connects to AOL. For a man who wants to keep his family isolated, and control them, how on earth was this possible? How did he allow Tara to take piano and dance lessons, perform in plays and date? These are things NO controlling parent would allow.

I'm beginning to feel the lawyer is right, read it with a grain of salt.

We all want a good story of someone like Tara, to come out believable, and a survivor. I am impressed with her achievements, those are undeniable.

Ginny, I'm glad to see you went from,

Quote

I could only stomach it once. I could not put it down, I was VERY glad to see her triumphant ending, but I also now can't pick it back up and desperately want to say something positive about SOMETHING in it.

to:

Ginny,

Quote

I think it's this quality of the book which lifts it into the "Love it" category.
What do you think?

I'm not there yet, and don't see me ever getting to the "Love it" category. A person's success story should not be at the expense of other family members pain and suffering, nor leave doubt with the readers, leaving gaps and unanswered questions.

PatH., I am sure you are correct in saying,

Quote

I doubt she tried to report Shawn's violence. If she had, the family uproar it would cause would have been too major not to be part of the story.

Ginny,

Quote

I hope there have been, I doubt any exist. What's her physical proof? She has no physical proof of her own issues, the dog disappeared, and everybody says she is lying. Even now. And as in so many domestic violence issues what can the police do if everybody says it didn't happen. The headlines are full of why something was not reported at the time, it seems. Maybe the lesson here for all of us is report now repent later.

This reality makes me sad, because we are talking 1990's - 2000s. Whether she had proof or not, whether it was her word against the family's word. I have attended workshops, and I know that you the reporter do NOT need proof to report, you only need to suspect it, to report it to the authorities, and Children Services, they take it from there.

If her accounts are true, then Shawn's violence without intervention of some type of medical or therapeutic help, will continue. Mental illness does not go away, and abusers abuse for control. In her interview she says: I hope for the sake of my brother’s wife and family that he’s mellowed and changed.

Hmm..... for an educated woman, with a PhD, and numerous therapy/counseling sessions behind her, what ever would make her think someone as violent like Shawn, would "mellow and change"? I would have expected this educated woman to say, I hope Shawn is getting the proper medical treatment for what ever his condition is, that causing this violent, dangerous behaviors.

Tara may have gotten "educated" but from my view, she has not learned yet how to apply her knowledge. You don't write a book first, become a best seller, live abroad, become wealthy, do interviews, yet not look out for the children who are left back in Buck's Peak, who could suffer at the hands of an abuser. :'(

Report first, write the book later!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 21, 2019, 05:16:51 PM

To me, the book these many years later IS a report, of what happened then.

Hopefully now that she has exposed him, apparently the only one of the cast of characters to have that courage, to the entire universe, Protective Services can be more proactive in this case: they've been alerted. The whole world is watching now. I hope it helps. I can't think what else she could do about a present or future situation, after all these years.

I'm just idly wondering why you put the word "educated" in quotation marks when you refer to her? I am not sure what putting it in quotations means?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 21, 2019, 06:04:07 PM

Tara's education wasn't totally missing when she started on the path to taking the ACT. We know she had been reading for years. She had honed her skills by reading and rereading the Mormon books in the house. She credited them with giving her the skill of persisting in getting the meaning out of something she didn't at first understand. We know she could write, because she had been keeping journals for years.

Whether or not she had them before, she had to have acquired grammar and the ability to do expository writing by the time she got her advanced degrees. It's needed for writing papers and theses. Then, before getting very far with her book, she took six months to learn writing--fiction writing. Why? I think she needed to learn storytelling, the art of arranging a series of events so they make sense, have a point, and hold the reader's interest. This doesn't help us to know if she is writing fact or fiction; you still need to tell your story properly even if it's true.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 21, 2019, 06:57:24 PM

Ginny,

Quote

To me, the book these many years later IS a report, of what happened then.

This many years later, writing the book to assure the abuse is out in the open, for the authorities and Children Services to know NOW, does not help those who could have be abused by Shawn all the years she stayed quiet, while writing. We know once the parents were alerted, it did nothing to change Shawn, because after the father called him and told him about what she alleged he did, he went and slaughtered a dog. Seeing the book years later, as the report, seems a bit sad. But it is, what it is.

As for the quotations marks enclosing the word educated when describing Tara, I am Italian, I use my hands a lot when I talk, to emphasize something, I use the index finger and middle finger in a motion of quotation marks. It's a habit, which I carry over in my typing, when emphasizing a word of importance, or quoting the person. My CCD student picked up on that in class, and started doing it as well. He made me aware of the fact, I do it quite often. He would catch me and do it, and laugh, which in turned made me laugh and the rest of the class. :)

PatH., Thank you, I think you are correct. I went back and listened to her interview and she said, she spent about a year writing the book, and then a year revising it, about six months to learn how to write, because Academic writing does not translate. I had assumed while in college having to write dissertations thesis, etc., it would have prepared her. I agree, the art of arranging and putting a book together, would require certain knowledge and skills.

PatH.,

Quote

This doesn't help us to know if she is writing fact or fiction; you still need to tell your story properly even if it's true.

I agree, every author should meet the requirements of fiction, or non-fiction, when writing their story, and labeling it. Hers for me is murky. I felt the editors should have caught this, her family members certainly did, along with many people who wrote reviews, after reading the book.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 08:47:53 AM

This many years later, writing the book to assure the abuse is out in the open, for the authorities and Children Services to know NOW, does not help those who could have be abused by Shawn all the years she stayed quiet, while writing. We know once the parents were alerted, it did nothing to change Shawn, because after the father called him and told him about what she alleged he did, he went and slaughtered a dog. Seeing the book years later, as the report, seems a bit sad. But it is, what it is.

Really?

This, after she did certainly as a child report it to her parents and was not believed, nor did anything about it. THEY in this thing and in all others, are the responsible adults , supposedly, neglectful as they are, and are to blame, surely not the victim herself.

This, after her parents witnessed her brother's attack on his own wife and did nothing about it, no report to anybody, but send her back, causes me to think that perhaps here we need to look at those who then and now, (and I include all the other adults involved in this so called "family") daily today turn their heads and allow any abusive behavior to continue because they know and have known and are witness, but choose to ignore what he's done and is probably doing.

Any blame, any censure, is theirs as so called responsible adults, certainly not the child victim of the past who did what any child would do, report it to her parents.

Surely.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 09:23:34 AM

The remark of the brother who said that they all had the choice of going to school or not is obviously not true, speaking for her when she describes herself, sadly watching the school bus go by as a child. They appear to be spinning like mad, trying to save face.

Dad's 1000 buried gallons of gas is just another in a long series of pitiful and avoidable accidents waiting to happen, he needs to use that computer to look up the storage life of gasoline with and without STABIL, but it's too late for the gas, actually, and hopefully the authorities will be contacting him first. (What sort of driving does he hope to do anyway in the End Times?) If he watched that TV he would see such fellow survivalists as the...is it Mountain Men... drive a truck propelled with wood and a fire, forget the gas).

Yes, Dad irritates me no end and I swore I would never say another thing about them.

And of course any responsible reader knows that none of us is perfect, we all try the best we can, we all make and have made mistakes and none of us want to see them splayed across headlines all over the world, judge not, what a frightening book this is to read for what it does to the reader.

I don't think there will ever be another like it, I really don't, it's broken the mold.

And this is apropos of nothing but I have had the feeling the entire book, actually, and it grew very strong toward the end, that she was withholding something about Dad. I felt it getting closer and closer and I thought I was reading things into it but now I'm not so sure.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 09:35:50 AM

I've had to reexamine what I know about learning to read, too, in the face of what I'm reading here and in the book. I find myself reexamining a lot of educational theory lately.

Toward that end I've spent quite a lot of time looking at the Book of Mormon since that's what she struggled over. I realize Educated is not about Mormonism but that was a text she used, so I wanted to know more about it, including reading the history of it, the many branches and sects, and the Book of Mormon itself.

I really had no idea what it was. So that has been a valuable learning experience.

So many topics left to explore, the book is a kaleidoscope of them.

--education. I had hoped we could talk a bit about what "education" means to us personally and what it may be. Bill Gates in his review of the book talks about always having enjoying teaching himself, and I've just come from a conference where a lot of new ideas are spinning like tops about how we learn. Math instruction alone has completely changed. It's AMAZING what kids are doing in school now.

--What do you remember most fondly from your own educational experiences? What is the worst experience you recall? What did each contribute or detract from your own learning?

I would love to explore some of the new theories, to try to understand them. What do we mean by an educated person? What causes this Ignorance that we're told we'll always have with us? We are all ignorant in some things but Ignorance with a capital I seems to have its own cult.

--homeschooling. This one is more volatile than some of Dad's projects so I guess it's better left alone.

Since the mini discussion, sort of like a face to face one, seems to depend on topics du jour (in a face to face one you'd have one topic for every person present) here i are a couple of choices or suggest your own:

---They say we learn something from every book we read, no matter how bad or good: what have YOU learned from this one?

--What do you remember most fondly from your own educational experiences? What is the worst experience you recall? What did each contribute or detract from your own learning?

---Her name: Tara. Why Tara? Is there any irony in it, given the story?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 22, 2019, 11:43:35 AM

Ginny

Quote

This, after she did certainly as a child report it to her parents and was not believed, nor did anything about it. THEY in this thing and in all others, are the responsible adults , supposedly, neglectful as they are, and are to blame, surely not the victim herself.

Really?

Yes, Really, she is NOT a child any longer, as she is writing this book. Yes, she is the victim at the age of fifteen, but when she is in college, and beyond, she is an adult writing this book. It took her 2 years to write it, then it went to the publisher, and editors, and yet no one bothers to report anything, until the book speaks about it to the world?

As a child, Tara did what she could do, as an adult, who has gone through counseling, is now away from the house and abuse, and has gone through college, she did not feel the necessity to report, to protect Shawn's wife, or children, or anyone else who could have suffered at the hands of Shawn. Instead she decides to write a book about it.

You keep referring to Tara as a child, I am seeing her for what she is at the time she is writing this book, an adult, with adult responsibilities.

In her own words in her video interview when asked about authorities getting involved, she says:
"As with a lot of things it's good to look inward and think about the people we know that we are inadvertently maybe hurting by keeping silent."

She acknowledges knowing, yet then she uses the word maybe hurting. So it seems she is trying to not accept here the actual hurt that could still be happening. Is this her way of excusing NOT reporting it to authorities or Children Services? If what she says is true, and Shawn is as violent as she describes, possibly either mental issues or other causes for this violence, how could she say, maybe? An abuser does not stop, they just find other victims. She saw this with her own eyes. I do believe Shawn is, and could still be, this violent, and this book maybe, will bring a more watchful eye on this entire family of child abusers, whether they directly or indirectly are involved.

Telling her parents as a teenager, and not being believed, feeling the parents are part of the cover up, I understand how she at that age, would not even consider, involving any one outside the home. But.... I am speaking of her as an adult, during college years, and while writing the book.

We are not going to come to any agreement on this, so as I have learned, it is time to agree to disagree on this, and move on.

Ginny,

Quote

They appear to be spinning like mad, trying to save face.

I get the sense, every single person in this Westover family, has spun things for their own narrative, protection, personal reasons, and monetary gain, including Tara.

This book is not by far the worst ever written, and will not be the last, sad to say. :'(
Read Where The Crawdads Sing, or Before We Were Yours, but then maybe after Educated, I would say don't bother. I read both books prior to Educated. I had NO idea Educated dealt with this type of theme, or I would have passed on it. Again, I like many readers was taken in by the cover. I guess it's true when they say, Don't judge a book by it's cover. I did not read the excerpts or reviews of Educated, because I did not want to be swayed before opening the book. That was my mistake.

I found it interesting in this same interview when Tara is asked about the Mormon religion, she says, "I am not a practicing Mormon, but I have very warm feelings toward Mormonism. My family isn't really representative of Mormonism. Religion is a character in the story, but it's not the whole story and it isn't a causal factor that determined the way we lived.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYg_gp0JPc

Ginny, like you, I know next to nothing about the Mormon faith, but I can tell you while reading this book I sensed this family, in their actions and beliefs, had nothing to do with Mormonism. I'm glad Tara's first words in the book under Author's Note are:

This STORY IS NOT ABOUT MORMONISM. NEITHER IS IT ABOUT any other form of religious belief.

I had to giggle when I read this in your post:

Quote

(I still don't know what the "End Times" are. But apparently you can drive when they come.)

Anyone who has read Revelations, or has any kind of knowledge about the teaching of The End of Times, should know a car, plane, train, or any other form of transportation is not going to help you. The father's stock piling of food, medical supplies and fuel, surely shows you his radical unstable thinking. For those of us who follow an organized religious faith, knows Noah was instructed to build the Ark. I didn't hear anything in this book that says, God spoke to Mr. Westover and told him to stock pile these things, and have your fuel ready. Ughh...

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 22, 2019, 11:58:18 AM

Ginny, your remarks lead me to talk about two related things that I feel are crucial to Tara's story: the possible change in family life over the years, and Tara's father's mental state.

Tara was the youngest of seven; there was a fair span of years in the children's ages, and I think the family life changed over the years, getting more and more eccentric as time went on. The older children didn't have the same kind of childhood as she did. This was probably the result of her father's growing mental instability. He certainly seems pretty disturbed now, but the problems, untreated, very likely have grown worse. By the time Tara was ready, he had grown much more rigid. She talks in one of the interviews of her early childhood being quite happy.

The father's mental state is central to the story, and I think you're right, she's holding something back. In one of the interviews, she mentions her father having a blind spot in recognizing risk and danger in some circumstances--he genuinely didn't see the risks of the way the was using powerful machinery in the junkyard, for himself too, not just for his children. That's pretty extreme. I'd like to know more, but that won't happen. Tara diagnoses bipolar disorder, and he's pretty paranoid, but I bet there's more.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 22, 2019, 12:24:14 PM

PatH., I agree, I think the father's issues, what ever they are, became more prevalent with age. My daughter's bipolar disorder did not manifest until she was twenty-five years old. I, her mother, did not know anything about this mental disorder, until her doctors in the psychiatric ward diagnosed her, when her husband took her to the emergency room, because she had a complete mental break down. They were living in Georgia, we were here in Ohio. We flew down immediately and brought her back to Ohio for medical care, and treatment. It is managed today, twenty years later with medication. After doing a ton of research on bipolar disorder, I learned the gene can stay dormant, until or unless a person with the gene has some traumatic incident in their life to cause it to manifest. Also, it is more prevalent in the maternal gene, yet the paternal gene also carries it. Hormones can also factor into the manifestation, which is why we can see it manifest in teenagers. Violence and paranoia is symptomatic with bipolar, and schizophrenia can also accompany those with bipolar. My daughter even on medication struggles with paranoia.

Mental illness is genetic, so it stands to reasoning, if the father has any type of mental issues, and I suspect he does, Shawn's behavior sure does seem it could be due to some type of mental disorder as well. Just to be precise, Tara did not at any time diagnose, her father with bipolar disorder. She mentions in the book while talking to her counselors, describing his behaviors, the counselor suggested it could be bipolar. Tara is not a doctor of psychiatry or any other medical field, she has a PhD in History. Because the father will never go to a doctor, I would guess he will never be properly diagnosed.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 22, 2019, 12:29:40 PM

From Ginny...'what a frightening book this is to read for what it does to the reader.

I don't think there will ever be another like it, I really don't, it's broken the mold.'

Doesn't there seem to be something confessional about it. It's certainly far more than a 'report'.

Struggling with the Book of Mormon? Wasn't that done with the hope of understanding her father? Her education is an overwhelming thing, but it began with: 'I had never heard of the Holocaust. I had never heard of mental illness.'

She says so many nice things about her father. She hopes to see him in heaven.

This about a man who had said to his own mother: "You're a knowing participant in the plans of Satan.' (p33)

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 22, 2019, 02:32:58 PM

I am just not understanding why Tara has such polar opposite feelings about her father. In her interviews, you would not think he has done anything wrong. She almost sugar coats, and excuses his actions. I don't think there is anything more she is hiding, this book is as someone mentioned like her confessional, and I think she got it all out.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 05:28:19 PM

Bellamarie,

You keep referring to Tara as a child,

According to the state of Utah where she lived:

Utah CodePage 1Chapter 12Utah Child Support ActPart 1General Provisions78B-12-101 Title.

(7) "Child" means:(a) a son or daughter under the age of 18 years who is not otherwise emancipated, self-supporting, married, or a member of the armed forces of the United States;(b) a son or daughter over the age of 18 years, while enrolled in high school during the normal and expected year of graduation and not otherwise emancipated, self-supporting, married, or a member of the armed forces of the United States.

She was a child, legally, until she turned 18.

As a child, Tara did what she could do, as an adult, who has gone through counseling, is now away from the house and abuse, and has gone through college, she did not feel the necessity to report, to protect Shawn's wife, or children, or anyone else who could have suffered at the hands of Shawn. Instead she decides to write a book about it..

She did not write a book about Shawn. She wrote it about herself.

She is the victim here. What about Audrey? She's older than the author. Why didn't she report? Write a book? How about Mom n Dad, especially since Mom admits why she did not do anything? Parenting assumes responsible adults and that responsibility for one's children means taking responsibility, and certainly not pushing it off on the victim for Pete's sake, which Dad tried to do with Shawn. THEY, the so called "responsible adults" who were burdened morally with doing something about this did nothing. This is the same thing that inspired the Me Too Movement and we can see why.

Tara is the messenger, let's not kill the messenger.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 05:31:15 PM

What might Dad do with a car at the End Times? Well according to the information I read this morning on the main sect of Mormonism, and there are many, it's believed by them that there will be a bit of time between the Second Coming and the Last Judgment, (or something like that, there's to be some time,) regardless of what Revelations says, they have their own Scriptures, and in this time one can repent or whatever. So during that time I guess Dad and his guns can choose what to do but he won't do it on that gasoline.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 05:50:58 PM

Pat, that's the impression I got, too, things were different in that family but no two children have the same parents or so they say. This time it seems to have been carried to extremes.

I do, too, think she's holding something back, I've felt it coming the entire book, but I doubted myself. I have to say I'm glad I'm out from under his spell, just reading his remarks again is kind of disturbing. What it must have taken for her to finally get out . (If she HAS, I worry these excuses she makes for him and her not condemning him publicly are also evidence to there being more than has been revealed. Why she does this I have no idea. Perhaps she's not as estranged as we would hope, and this is a symptom of it?)

Jonathan, did he really say that to his own mother? I can't find it in the Kindle (the pagination is different) but I now seem to remember the comparison of the two grandmothers, how oppressive it seems all over again. It's just one shock after another, the mind reels, you grab on what you can make sense of: we'll all see something different. A perfect read for a book discussion. And it's a heck of a book and very well written.

She's the messenger here but not of bad tidings, of good tidings, she escaped and triumphed. At a cost. She must stay strong and find the strength to not waver, to do that would be the last betrayal of that girl who was abused and betrayed with no protection offered.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 22, 2019, 07:19:24 PM

Ginny, I thought I have made myself clear, since I have said numerous times...I am only speaking of Tara reporting to protect others from Shawn, after college, and while she was writing the book, at that time she is an adult.

Any or all family members who were adults, should have reported the abuse. I am not excluding any of them. They were, and still seem to be in denial, or dependent upon their parents for their income/jobs, and yes the others who do not live in Buck's Peak, and do not depend on the family business, chose not to get involved where the authorities were concerned as well. But, they also did not choose to write a book about it. Tara deciding to write the book to inform the world of the abuse, should have thought to report it, to protect Shawn's wife, kids and others from his violence, as an adult.

By Tara's own words, in her interview, she is aware of what she should have done, and chose not to do. I think she still in some way wants to protect her family, even though she has written this book, exposing them.

Maybe not reporting and involving the authorities, or Children Services, she feels it kept the door open for her to someday return home. This would also explain why she refuses to condemn her father publicly in her interviews. This could be why some feel she is not saying something, holding back.... hope beyond hope, to be brought back into the family fold, in spite of the dysfunction and abuse.

Ginny,

Quote

She must stay strong and find the strength to not waver, to do that would be the last betrayal of that girl who was abused and betrayed with no protection offered

I agree, but I suspect like Jonathan said early on:

Quote

I see the book as an attempt at reconciliation with her father and the rest of the family. Even with that sadistic brother, Shawn. Tara would like to go home to her beloved Buck's Peak.

This did not make sense to me at the time, but it does now.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 09:05:55 PM

Yes, you've been perfectly clear, at least 3 times. I am not sure that what I am saying is also being regarded, however, but no matter. :)

My position, also said several times, is I disagree with blaming the victim, in any way.

It's OK, though, for us to have opposing views, makes for a good discussion and this has been one.

Let's move on?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 22, 2019, 09:08:41 PM

Here are three questions for tomorrow that I don't know the answer to, the first two are from the New York Times:

1. “Educated” starts with an epigraph from Virginia Woolf: “The past is beautiful because one never realizes an emotion at the time. It expands later, and thus we don’t have complete emotions about the present, only the past.” What do you think Woolf meant by this? Why do you think Tara Westover chose to begin her memoir this way?

2.We are also introduced early in the book to the standoff at Ruby Ridge, a 1992 gunfight between F.B.I. agents and United States marshals and a heavily armed family on an isolated homestead. How does this incident cast a shadow over the Westover parents and children, and the survivalism that characterizes their upbringing?

-----I have to admit on this last one that I did not remember Ruby Ridge, and I had to ask at lunch yesterday what the details were. I did not know that Timothy McVeigh (sp) chose this as his reason for the bombing in Oklahoma City, either. I am unclear on this issue and why it seemed to set off these unstable people so I am very interested in what you all might have to add to the details or explanations of what happened and why to this. It seems to be important or is it?

3. And here's a bonus question based on what Jonathan said a bit back: "She has in fact become an Illuminati, that bugbear of her father's tortured mind, which depends on revelation."

That's a clever turn of phrase, Jonathan, nicely done. :)

But on the real Illuminati, I thought I knew what the Illuminati were, but now I am not so sure. What ARE the Illuminati, and why is Dad so afraid of them?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 22, 2019, 10:28:30 PM

What a dazzling discussion. So many interesting things being said. And, this one from Bellamarie, is a gem:

'I would guess he will never be properly diagnosed.'

Shucks, I think Tara is leaving that to the reader. The bipolar diagnosis is a cop out, I believe, to spare the church. Dad spends too much time studying the scriptures. His strange mental state follows his religious experience at age thirty or thereabouts.

As for putting the children in harm's way as Pat has pointed out:

'In one of the interviews, she mentions her father having a blind spot in recognizing risk and danger in some circumstances--he genuinely didn't see the risks of the way the was using powerful machinery in the junkyard, for himself too, not just for his children...'

No, indeed. He saw it as an opportunity to see guardian angels hovering about. And to convince the kids of this heavenly protection.

I believe the sympathy of the nation has been aroused. Why couldn't the president have the whole family to dinner at the White House, and convinve them of the well-intentioned government.

I don't see Shawn as a bipolar victim. He was taking his cue from Dad. Tara is the black sheep.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 22, 2019, 10:40:49 PM

What are the Illuminati?

By sheer luck I came across the answer just recently in a book by Niall Ferguson, the historian' The Square and the Tower. Chapter I is 'The Mystery of the Illuminati.'

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 22, 2019, 11:19:53 PM

End the suspense, Jonathan. What are they?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 23, 2019, 07:43:58 AM

And why would they have any interest whatsoever in a scrapyard owner in Utah?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 23, 2019, 07:57:18 AM

I was thinking the other day about the painful scenes when Dad comes to visit his daughter or shouts in restaurants and little by little her eyes are opened, she becomes enlightened (or educated, if you will), to the fact that he perhaps is not normal. Whatever normal is, her family as a whole is WAY off the beam. Or I hope it is.

This sort of seeing reality about parents as a person instead of the all powerful parent, as a person grows up, is normal, supposedly every person goes through seeing their parents from godlike to just ordinary people with flaws. She experienced this suddenly when still young (instead of having to be in her 50's or 60's) in college, by seeing him presenting himself in an unfavorable way, out of his habitat in comparison to other people.

In some ways, this family, to me, IS a cult. Their peculiar behavior, the clicking, how eerie is that, that entire scene when Dad demands agreement and the mother in anxiety immediately starts that clicking and flapping of fingers that...eerie...behavior....What is that?

You'd think it was the Middle Ages. These poor people, this is the only protection, the only strength they have, manifested in these odd ticks and fears and backpacks ready... apparently they lack any other paths, and again is this due to Ignorance? Versus Education? I think it is. Is the root of it Dad? I think it is. All they can do, they have no other resource, is to fall back on this sort of...I don't know what to call it.... We are not living in the 1600's, and neither are they. Or are we?

How is this different from a Cult?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 23, 2019, 08:32:32 AM

Oh wait, I forget, they are millionaires now, but it seems the Illuminati were interested in them before that. Is it now more interested in them?

Julius Caesar, living before Christianity existed, considered a worthy pagan, with the Church definition of pagan, (he was one of the 9 Worthies in the Middle Ages, a time to which we seem to have slipped back in this discussion) said something interesting once. He said that sometimes the gods allow a man to exult in wrong success so that when the end comes the contrast of his downfall is then even more painful to him.

He said this to a German War Lord who would not listen to him and should have because he proved prophetic in that case. I don't know why that comes to mind here, except that perhaps those millions and the reputation of this family have just suffered a major blow. From the least of them or so they seemed to think, who finally found her own voice.

What, one wonders, will they learn from it? What should they learn from it?

(I sincerely doubt Caesar himself was surprised by his own assassination, however, I think he anticipated it), but that's another story.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 23, 2019, 10:25:52 AM

I finally looked up Illuminati. They were originally a Bavarian secret society, founded in the late 1700s, perhaps vaguely allied with the masons. Their purpose wasn't clear to me, and they didn't last long, but since then other organizations have claimed to be their successors, and supposed Illuminati have been blamed in many different conspiracy theories. They are supposed to have planted members in positions of power to accomplish whatever (take over the world? destroy religion?).

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 23, 2019, 10:45:32 AM

How is this different from a cult? My flippant reply would be, it's too small. Some of those odd beliefs do seem cult-like, or magical. I don't think they're original to the Westovers.

This has sparked my rant about herbal type remedies. There are plenty of natural or herbal remedies that work, and do what they are claimed to do. But there are even more that don't, or have dangerous side effects. And the industry of supplying these products is poorly regulated. They are often unclean, or impure, or not the material they are said to be, or spiked with something dangerous to produce the claimed effect. And lots of them simply don't work. If you are careful with your wording in what you claim, you aren't even breaking any regulations. So you have to be careful whose remedies you buy.

To do her justice, I'm betting that the Westover essential oils are properly prepared, and are the materials they claim. But I doubt if they work.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 23, 2019, 01:41:23 PM

Jonathan, what does your book tell you about the Illuminati?

I found this:

il·lu·mi·na·ti
/iˌlo͞oməˈnädē/

noun
people claiming to possess special enlightenment or knowledge of something.
"some mysterious standard known only to the illuminati of the organization"
a sect of 16th-century Spanish heretics who claimed special religious enlightenment.
noun: Illuminatus; plural proper noun: Illuminati
a Bavarian secret society founded in 1776, organized like the Freemasons.
noun: Illuminati

Illuminati
An ancient, disbanded organization that people claim to be behind an ongoing conspiracy. What people claim that they are behind today is something that they were actually against back when they existed. Many people believe that the Illuminati is represented by a triangle with an eye in the center, known as the all-seeing eye. Conspiracy theories are sometimes tied to this eye, but their real symbol is actually an owl.

PatH., I am with you, I think it does sound cult like. Why when reading this book I feel like this is taking place in 17th Century vs the present 21st Century. More feel of fiction for me.

Yes, herbs can be helpful, but they can also be dangerous. People could have extreme reactions to natural herbs, due to allergies, asthma, etc. I have a couple of friends who sell essential oils, and are sick all the time, but claim they are helpful. I brought some peonies in my house this Spring, and the smell of them gave me the worst head ache, I had to take them outside. I took an appetite suppressant with all natural herbs in the ingredients and experienced side effect. My doctor informed me some of those natural herbs can cause heart palpation, and trouble with breathing. The way Tara describes her mother administering these oils to friends, family and total strangers without her knowing their medical history is extremely dangerous and irresponsible. It's incredible they are now a multi million dollar business. According to her brother in a review, they are no where near worth that much.

I found this article to be very interesting. I feel this psychologist's view are in sync with mine after reading the book.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/millennial-media/201804/psychologists-take-tara-westovers-memoir-educated

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 23, 2019, 05:39:41 PM

I happened to watch yet another one of Tara's video interviews. In this one, she is very much different than in a prior on. In this interview she seems older, more confident, more intelligent, more playful, and self assured. She has changed her hair color to blonde with highlights, wears a stylish black leather jacket, and I get the sense she is comfortable in her own skin, at last.

There are some very good topics covered, and interesting answers she gives. Just a few things that stuck out to me:

1. Right off she includes Yale in the colleges she attended, and the interviewer laughs at her for mentioning Yale, saying, "By the way Yale would be happy to claim you."

2. "If you don't have money your whole brain is occupied in getting it. Getting enough to get through the next day, the next week.

3. She also mentions the Bishop writing her the Fourteen Hundred dollar check to help her with her root canal. She does not say she refused it. We know in the book she says she did refuse to take it from him, she got the grant for Four thousand- five hundred dollars and tried to give back the amount she didn't need, and was told that was her allowed amount from the program.

4. "I never had positive interaction with the government until I got a Pell grant, I was twenty. The first time that I thought, oh it does useful things sometimes. This is actually good." She mentions her father saying, "God would be angry with you if you took money from the government."

5. I was a terrible student in the sense I didn't learn much until I was somewhat financially secure."

6. She would go back to Idaho twice a year.

7. She mentions the Salem Witch Trials, breaking of charity.

8. We have to take the condescension out of education. We've allowed education to become an identity. We have allowed our education to putrefy into arrogance. Education should change you.
I don't necessarily blame them (parents) for feeling their kid will go off and become contemptuous of them.

9. When you add that contempt to it (education), it becomes a different animal Education is not so much a state of certainty, than it is a process of inquiry. Education is maybe less about knowing more than someone, and maybe knowing someone.

10. The Pencil image on the book cover is dual: The mountain, and Story of My Life & Story of My Education.

11. And mentions the John Dewey quote: I believe finally, that education must be conceived as a continuing reconstruction of experience: that the process and the goal of education are one and the same thing.

12. Asked, Do you feel Mormon? "I feel super Mormon when I am not talking to other Mormons."

13. Science and technology are trying to tell us who we are. We are a child of God.

14. "I do not want to be chained to the book the rest of my life. It can go off by it's self."

15. End with singing a very beautiful church hymn, How Great Thou Art.

She did mention she did not set out to write this book, including her family, it was suppose to be about her path to education, but realized she couldn't write it without including the family. She tried to respect their privacy, by not including any pictures, or parts of any sexual nature.

Take that for what it is worth. Makes me wonder if what is left out, is what some of you suspect she is not saying. Her leaving some things out, could be her saving grace, and the reason the family has not taken any further steps so far in court. I think she is purposefully staying away from talking about her parents and siblings under a court order. JMO.

I enjoyed this interview over all the others I have seen, but it did not change my views on
anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2XWYT-t47E

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 23, 2019, 06:00:10 PM

Thanks for finding that article, Bellamarie. It's really good to have the take of a professional. I agree, a lot of what she says is in sync with my feelings.

Tara has used her education as the tool to shape herself int her own person, what she wants to be, not simply the product of her horrendous childhood. But she's far from done. She's still a wounded person, not completely whole or healed.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 23, 2019, 06:30:04 PM

or parts of any sexual nature Yep, that's it, I think, the other unmentioned elephant in the living room. Good interview, thank you, and touching on the nature of education which I had hoped to talk about if possible.

Good point on the herbs, Pat. I know a lot of people espouse them, some of them here on SeniorLearn. I had posted and then erased voodoo from my earlier post about the eerie waving and clicking fingers, and probably should leave it out now. I think that if you're peddling herbs you should keep religious claims out of it, and as bellamarie says be sure your ingredients aren't causing harm. First do no harm, but these are not medical people.

Pat, on the Cult, the difference being numbers, I laughed out loud, you are so droll. However this quote from the website Patheos (I have no idea why) says, "LaRee, the matriarch of seven children and 32 grandchildren, only wanted money enough to buy food, fuel, and maybe a bomb shelter."

Just only wanted enough for food, fuel and a bomb shelter, that's all. Perhaps if some of them actually applied themselves to...I just will NOT say it.

(I have begun to hate the word "matriarch," and "patriarch," as if this were the 1800's, just hate them both.)

Let's see 32 grandchildren, 7 children, 2 nutso grandparents and voila: that's 41 people. How many people DOES it take to make a cult? Of course some of those are innocent children.

(That may be a misprint, I have seen 12 in the past and unless they are multiplying like lemmings 12 is more likely) but at 32???

I had a lovely lunch with two friends today who had both read the book, one of whom said it was horrific and the other said it is a cult. hahaha

Here's a quote from the Bill Gates interview which was really great, again on the nature of education:

"I was especially interested to hear her take on polarization in America. Although it’s not a political book, Educated touches on a number of the divides in our country: red states versus blue states, rural versus urban, college-educated versus not. Since she’s spent her whole life moving between these worlds, I asked Tara what she thought. She told me she was disappointed in what she called the “breaking of charity”—an idea that comes from the Salem witch trials and refers to the moment when two members of the same group break apart and become different tribes."

The Breaking of Charity, have you heard of it? What has it to do with Salem Witch Trials or the book?

Well, what have we not covered? She mentions cleanliness, the smell, and personal habits (not washing hands after the toilet) which her roommates hated. She mentions her mother a lot, we haven't looked at her at all. Should we?

Would we say her success is a case of Nature vs Nurture, or is there more of a connection than we think?

Dad in one of those interviews says his homeschooling couldn't have been all that bad as 3 of his children have PhD's. So he's taking credit for this? We have heard his opinion of "book larnin," and he practically forced one of them, one of the older boys into one so he could save the world or something, a religious duty or burden. I guess there are worse reasons to succeed. Was that Richard?

Who do you think should have the credit for their success? Why?

Why did she not know about the Holocaust or the Civil Rights Movement? They have a TV.

What have we not touched on that you'd like to bring up or discuss?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 23, 2019, 10:41:01 PM

Who do you think should have the credit for their success? Why?

I think just like every successful person, there are many people along the way to help them in becoming successful. Even with the good, the bad and the ugly of this family, I don't think they should be denied their part in helping Tara. Let's just set the obvious abuse, neglect etc., aside, and look at those who were there to help her on this journey of education, to earning her PhD.

Homeschooling must be acknowledged.
Her mother did take the time to teach her.
Her father gave her money to help her with college, and helped her with trigonometry.
Her brother Tyler helped her with algebra, encouraged her take the ACT, told her to go to college. When Shawn was abusing her, Tyler gave her his car keys and told her to leave.
Bishop helped her with filling out Pell Grants, and gave her a check for $1,500. He listened to her, and helped her talk through her issues.
Her Professors at Cambridge and Harvard were there for her.
Her brother Richard, introduced her to music, which is why she said she decided to even go to college.
Drew was there for her, actually got her to take a pill to help with her pain, helped her when she got the emails and threats.
Her piano and dance teachers along with those who helped her with the plays.
Charles had a small part, before he got spooked off.

Who else can you think of who helped her along the way?

I think we can't ever take full credit for our successes if life, and we should never refuse to acknowledge those who did help, little or great. She gives herself the credit, and of course without her hard work, dedication and commitment, she could not have accomplished her goals. But no one can do it alone.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 24, 2019, 12:29:21 AM

I'm in the process of changing my thinking about this book. Shocking, isn't it? Even the psychologist despairs of understanging her. Tara turned herself into an artist after taking Virgiinia Woolf's advice. Expand on your past experience.

I can't help you on the Illuminati mystery. Too complex. But it was and still is considered by some in the U.S. as the ultimate conspiricy. It's mentioned a dozen times in the book and seems to have been constantly on Dad's mind. Pages 33, 36.42,43,47,48,61,202, and 210.

'If the Government was after Randy Weaver, surely it must also be after Gene Westover, who'd been holding the front line in the war with the Illuminati for years.' p210

The government was infested with Illuminati, including the president. And there were others. I wonder where Gene was getting it. He may have been deluded. That doesn't make him bipolar.

It seems to me that Tara must be working on a sequel. She's certainly preparing the world for it.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 24, 2019, 07:34:28 AM

GREAT points, All!

Thank you for the Woolf insight, Jonathan, I was quite struck by that as a quote in the beginning but wasn't sure I caught the drift. She's over my head in that one, great job!

Which way are you changing your mind, Jonathan? From what to what about the book?

Wonderful point, too on the sequel. What do you all think will happen? Where will she go after such early incredible success? Only up, I think. How about Dad? I can see only one end here.

On the cop out thing with Dad and the bi polar, I think the family uses a LOT of cop-outs and excuses and I suddenly see where she gets it, it's a family trait, try to excuse the .....horror you see around you, with good and bad rationales. A lot of families, a LOT, do the exact same thing to perpetuate their dysfunction.

I personally know a family making excuses for a member because of a car wreck and injury to the he head. Except there's another family member who remembers back before the wreck and says this person was like that, then, too. Oops.

Perhaps "Gene" found the world too much and retreated into excuses himself. I don't know. But I do know that "Shawn" did not get his ideas from a vacuum, you can see that in how Dad handled the first reported incident: laughs, explanations about women being out of place, and a brewsky or two. With Shawn. Yeah, there are several elephants in this living room.

more..

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 24, 2019, 07:58:13 AM

Bellamarie, great points, we learn something from everybody we encounter. On this one, however:

Her mother did take the time to teach her. Not homeschooling. She says so flatly in one of the video links I put up here in an interview (with blond hair) when asked directly (as she skirts around it in the book) what homeschooling she received from her mother, that her mother by the time she came along was too busy with the Oils and 7 children (or something like that, it's there for anybody to see) to do any homeschooling.

And apparently too busy to teach the child anything about hygiene, health, and personal cleanliness, either, as witness to the others in college and afterwards who encountered her, at her own admission.

So Mom, while I'm sure providing support in some things and instruction in some things, apparently skipped these two major issues. And of course SHE is bottling oils for health.

It reminds me of a story my mother told me, one of many. She had been a first grade teacher and her first job was in a very rough area. That area now has a very vocal and proud constituency so I won't name it but in the 40's it was legend and not in a good way. She was appalled to find the children came to school so dirty, with matted hair, and in filthy clothes. They had never seen a toothbrush and did not know what soap was. So she bought them all toothbrushes and soap and they had happy games in class, of using them and she sent them home, and looked forward to the first Parent's Night.

In came a very angry mother, who returned the toothbrush and soap saying "I send my child to school for you to larn her, not to smell her."

It's incomprehensible to me the neglect shown in the Westover household, the sheer criminal neglect, but somehow this young woman has risen like a phoenix.

I've never forgotten my mother's story. And it's not limited to the 40's. I have a friend who did the same thing in 2016 but the toothbrushes and soap stayed at school and the game was played there as best it could be soap wise every day. With song.

We don't know, most of us living in this wonderful country in 2019, the way a LOT of people live in the US, but this book exposes one of the undersides of...what? Criminal neglect. That's what I call it. On many fronts.

The only thing protecting them is the isolation, now exposed.

So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this? I've never read anything like it.

Can anything good come of the book?

What can you see some of the positive things or changes the book might produce?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 24, 2019, 08:02:57 AM

And since we seem to be winding down in topics to explore, let's take a day or two (I have eye surgery tomorrow, a lens implant, so I won't be here till Friday) but let's take a moment or two for some reviews, too.

What one word for you sums up the book?

What one word sums up your personal reaction to the book?

What one word sums up what you will do with the knowledge you gained from reading the book?

How many stars would you give the book if you were rating it, and why?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 24, 2019, 02:31:36 PM

Good luck with your eye surgery, Ginny. Perhaps a pause in the discussion would be a good thing. I like your questions:

'So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this? I've never read anything like it.'

Who could have guessed? The baby in the family, growing up in beautiful Idaho. Gets a PhD in history and sets out to write some history of her own. Reads Virginia Woolf and her history turns into a literary success. It's the honesty of her writing that has surprised everybody.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 24, 2019, 02:42:17 PM

There's one subject that I didn't bring up because it didn't fit into the lively discussion: Tara as a historian. What made her choose that as a major? It must have been very strange to find whole big chunks of the past she didn't know existed. Was that what did it? Wanting to know it all at last? Anyway, she throws herself into it. She wonders about historians. When she realizes how scanty our information is about some things, she wonders how they feel about basing their guesses on such small evidence. Is this how history is made?

Then she writes her thesis, on what is, to her at least, a new topic in how some thinkers and religions reacted to a human problem. And when she hands it in, she thinks again of the question. "Who makes history?". But this time the answer is a surprising "I do".

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 24, 2019, 04:04:08 PM

Jonathan, Like the lawyer said, I advise you and all readers to,

"Take the book with a grain of salt."

There is indeed fiction in the book. And like I said before, I, the reader personally feel like I have been sold a false bill of goods. She has indeed wrote history, but unlike most historians, I feel hers is a bit distorted.

Tara contradicts herself in the book and in her interviews, as far as I am concerned. She said this book was encouraged by her professors, because "I had this kind of unusual educational experience, it was not suppose to be about her family and that she tried to respect their privacy. Yet, She EXPOSED the entire family, and spoke, thought and felt for them through her imagination, right down to the birth of Shawn's son, and his conditions. I don't believe she intended to not include the family. That's just me. I could be wrong, and that's okay.

In her own words, "If you don't have money your whole brain is occupied in getting it."

That is her mindset, it surely is not everyone's mind set. Now with the book written and the money she has made off of it, she wants to stop the interviews, and distance herself from the book.

"I do not want to be chained to the book the rest of my life. It can go off by it's self."

Why would any author use the word "chained" to their piece of work, if they are proud of it, and it has made them a ton of money and notoriety? She's not like Harper Lee, after writing To Kill A Mockingbird, who detested public fame, and decided to become a recluse, and never write another book. No, if anything, she is enjoying these interviews, the money, the fame, and intends to write another book.

I personally don't think she will attempt a sequel to Educated, that will include her family, only and but for, the possible lawsuits they will bring against her, which may still be in the process at the present time.

Was she really naive to think she could write a tell all book, alleging accusations against members of her family, infer mental illness, blame them for everything right down to not teaching her self cleanliness, take complete credit for her education, and then walk away from the book, and let it go off by itself?

I don't play the devil's advocate when I disagree with other's points of view, and I certainly don't intend to be argumentative. So in saying that, I do want to say this, Tara tells us she "taught herself." She quote's her father saying, "you can teach yourself something better than anyone else can teach it to you." I can't believe it took her til her teens to know self cleanliness. Even some animals clean up after themselves after relieving themselves, a baby's natural response when they have soiled their diaper is to cry for a change to be clean, birds preen their own feathers, yet, Tara didn't know to wash her own hands after using the bathroom, or couldn't comb her own hair, and her parents are to blame? This is just too much. I can see the neglect and abuse she claims happened, but to blame her parents for self grooming, shows me the desperate embellishments of the book, when she is self proclaiming, being able to teach herself how to read, and teach herself algebra.

Ginny,

Quote

Her mother did take the time to teach her. Not homeschooling. She says so flatly in one of the video links I put up here in an interview (with blond hair) when asked directly (as she skirts around it in the book) what homeschooling she received from her mother, that her mother by the time she came along was too busy with the Oils and 7 children (or something like that, it's there for anybody to see) to do any homeschooling.

And apparently too busy to teach the child anything about hygiene, health, and personal cleanliness, either, as witness to the others in college and afterwards who encountered her, at her own admission.

So Mom, while I'm sure providing support in some things and instruction in some things, apparently skipped these two major issues. And of course SHE is bottling oils for health.

Just one more contradiction I found in this book:

pg. 25 I am seven or eight and am in my room dressing for church. I have taken a damp rag to my face, hands and feet, scrubbing only the skin that will be visible. Mother watches me pass a cotton dress over my head, which I have chosen for its long sleeves so I won't have to wash my arms, and a jealousy lights her eyes. "If you were Grandma's daughter," she says, "we'd have been up at the crack of dawn preening your hair. The the rest of the morning would be spent agonizing over which shoes, the white or the cream, would give the right impression."

This shows me, Tara was like most children, not wanting to take the time to bathe properly, or wash their hands after going to the bathroom, or use deodorant. That's personal choice, NOT neglect of the parents.

This mother who had no time to teach her kids anything, who had constant migraines from head injuries:

pg. 45 There had been a time, when Tyler was a boy, when Mother had been idealistic about education. She used to say that we were kept at home so we could get a better education. But it was only Mother who said that, as Dad thought we should learn more practical skills. When I was very young, that was the battle between them; Mother trying to hold school every morning, and Dad herding the boys into the junkyard the moment her back was turned. But mother would lost that battle, eventually. It began with Luke, the fourth of the five sons. Luke was smart when it came to the mountain__he worked with animals in a way that made it seem like he was talking to them__but he had a severe learning disability and struggled to learn to read. Mother spent five years sitting with him at the kitchen table every morning, explaining the same sounds again and again, but by the time he was twelve, it was all Luke could do to cough out a sentence from the Bible, during family scripture study. Mother couldn't understand it. She'd had no trouble teaching Tony and Shawn to read, and everyone else had just sort of picked it up. Tony had taught me to read when I was four, to win a bet with Shawn, I think. Once Luke could scratch out his name and read short, simple phrases, Mother turned to Math. What Math I was ever taught I learned doing the breakfast dishes and listening to Mother explain, over and over, what a fraction is or how to use negative numbers.

pg. 46 Mother would announce that today we were doing school. She kept a bookshelf in the basement, stocked with books on herbalism, along with a few old paperbacks. There were a few textbooks on math, which we shared, and an American history book that I never saw anyone read except Richard. There was also a science book, which must have been for you children because it was filled with glossy illustrations. It usually took half an hour to find all the books, then we would divide them up and go into separate rooms to "do school." Mother never delivered lectures or administered exams. She never assigned essays. There was a computer in the basement with a program call Mavis Beacon, which gave lessons on typing.

pg. 61 I'd find myself imagining the classrooms where Tyler was spending his days. I had a bizarre thought, that I should enroll in the public school. Mother had always said we could go to school if we wanted. We just had to ask Dad, she said. Then we could go. But I didn't ask. There was something in the hard line of my father's face, in the quiet sigh of supplication he made every morning before he began family prayer, that made me think my curiosity was an obscenity, an affront to all he'd sacrificed to raise me.

Again, Tara's "imagining" comes into her deciding what is fact. She "never asked." Her father did not stop her from taking the ACT test, her father never stopped her from applying to BYU. She was NOT a prisoner in her home.

Where in this book does Tara ever take any accountability?

She has taken everyone's inventory, spoken for them, thought for them and felt for them, imagines, in a lot of areas in this book, and never once does she admit any accountability.

I understand she is a victim.

But... when she chose to write this book, she had legal and ethical responsibilities. Like the psychologist's husband asked, "Does she have Stockholm syndrome?"

But then, she would have had to been held as a hostage, to have this syndrome, which we clearly know she was not. She was allowed to have dance, piano and acting classes. She dated, brought her boyfriend Charles to their house, she was in more than one play, she went with her mother to midwife, she rode horses with Shawn, she used the car to go buy her ACT test, she went off to college, etc., etc. She could come and go as she pleased.

PatH.,

Quote

Tara as a historian. What made her choose that as a major?

She said in her interview she wanted to go to college for music. Once she realized how much history she lacked, it seems she decided to change her major.

Ginny, Good luck with your surgery. I hope all goes well.

I for one am ready to take a pause in this discussion. I have never felt so frustrated, as I do with this book. I don't have the time or patience to point out more of her discrepancies in this book. I marked so many, and then after watching her video interviews, and reading her interviews, I just keep seeing more and more of them. Some readers will take this book for face value, not take the time to even question anything in it. Others like myself, those who have written reviews and even the psychologist, will notice the inconsistencies, embellishments, and question the validity of what she wrote.

Like I said before, this in NOT the worst book describing a life of abuse ever written. It did NOT break the mold, and sadly to say, it will NOT be the one and only one to be written.

We have other historians who have come before Tara Westover....
The Diary of a Young Girl by Anne Frank,
I Am Malala: The Story of the Girl Who Stood Up for Education and Was Shot by the Taliban
by Malala Yousafzai,
Dorothy Herrmann (Author) of Helen Keller to name a few, and so many more.

Ginny,

Quote

So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this?

I see the book, here today, gone tomorrow, since the media has such a short attention span, and a thirst for something new and more salacious. Tara's wish will come to fruition, it will go off by it's self.

I do wonder if it will reach legal ramifications from any of the family members. I suspect not, because with this book's success, came the success of their homeopathic oil business. Money has always been this entire family's ultimate goal, at all costs, in my opinion. In her own words,

"If you don't have money your whole brain is occupied in getting it.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 26, 2019, 05:49:54 PM

Thank you for the kind thoughts, much appreciated! Modern medicine can truly be miraculous in some cases. I feel very lucky today.

A few thoughts as we wind down our conclusions to our 2nd ever Mini Discussion:

Bellamarie:

I advise you and all readers to,

"Take the book with a grain of salt."

There is indeed fiction in the book. And like I said before, I, the reader personally feel like I have been sold a false bill of goods. She has indeed wrote history, but unlike most historians, I feel hers is a bit distorted.

Please rest assured that everyone here HAS read your words above, several times, and DOES understand that they are your considered opinion on the veracity of the book, and that you need feel no anxiety to repeat them: we've got it. :)

On this one, may I express my thoughts on the quoted material only, not the conclusions stated here?

pg. 25 I am seven or eight and am in my room dressing for church. I have taken a damp rag to my face, hands and feet, scrubbing only the skin that will be visible. Mother watches me pass a cotton dress over my head, which I have chosen for its long sleeves so I won't have to wash my arms, and a jealousy lights her eyes. "If you were Grandma's daughter," she says, "we'd have been up at the crack of dawn preening your hair. The the rest of the morning would be spent agonizing over which shoes, the white or the cream, would give the right impression."

I find this, which somehow inexplicably I had forgotten, to be, in one word, despicable.

(1) A 7 or 8 year old minor child's parent or legal guardian has the legal and moral responsibility to keep that child clean, and to maintain that child in clean and healthy conditions and surroundings: failure to do so can result in a charge of Neglect. Had the child been in a school; the neglect of hygiene would have been (1) noticed and ridiculed by the other children and (2) reported to DHEC. But that's not what I found despicable, it's clear the child was trying to clean herself partially with water, albeit covering up the dirt by long sleeves.

Here's what I found despicable about that quote:

2. Instead of using this situation as a teachable moment to explain cleanliness, Mom succumbs to the green eyed demon herself, "and a jealousy lights her eyes."

This insight from the author indicated to me, just as "too busy to homeschool," also did, as the author's attempt to use an euphemism and give an excuse for what is patently parental neglect. Mom instead decides to deride the child's own grandmother, let me translate:

"If you were Grandma's daughter," she says,

Translation: Aren't you lucky you're MY daughter" (No she is not)

we'd have been up at the crack of dawn preening your hair.

Translation: You'd have had to wash even your matted hair for Church because your grandmother would care enough about you to want you to be clean. Note that WE would have been up, thus acknowledging the responsibility the Mother has for such a young child's health and welfare.

The the rest of the morning would be spent agonizing over which shoes, the white or the cream, would give the right impression."

Translation: when you wash yourself and get clean it's only for show. It has nothing to do with anything but "giving the right impression." Dressing in nice clothes is the same thing. WE don't care about any of that, aren't you lucky?

I have seen some people question the author in places but I don't believe I have ever seen anybody defend the practices of this perfectly horrible bunch of people.

Good quote on dad's contribution to homeschooling. That answers the question of his taking credit for the success of those who succeeded despite his stated opinion of " book learning."

More....

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 26, 2019, 06:24:07 PM

Great points, Everybody!

Pat, I agree that she's not finished and she may never be. I am not sure how you could shake this off easily. I liked also your thoughts on her as writer of history, I wonder what history she heard as a child beyond Ruby Ridge, was there one other one mentioned?

What did they use that TV for? OH wait, the Honeymooners, one day, Alice, one day, POW right in the kisser. Yeah. WE all liked the Honeymooners back in the day, poor frustrated Ralph, his longsuffering but strong wife, but that pow right in the kisser today seems...a little uncomfortable, doesn't it?

I hate to say this I truly do but I made the mistake of looking up Shawn on Facebook and found the site by his wife. I have never felt such despair as I did looking at it. I will not describe the photographs other than saying the site states in big letters, with a photo of two hands entwined, "I am married to my best friend." And significantly there is a huge section given over to a Wild Western movie clip constantly repeating, titled by the site's creator, "Best bitch slap ever." Showing said slap over and over and over.

I felt physical nausea.

I'm sorry, but there is only one Westover I can stomach talking or reading about any further. But she is worth more comments.

Pat:

Then she writes her thesis, on what is, to her at least, a new topic in how some thinkers and religions reacted to a human problem. And when she hands it in, she thinks again of the question. "Who makes history?". But this time the answer is a surprising "I do".

Yes, she has. And that begs the question for all of us, what history has she made here? Will there be any result at all?

Bellamarie quoted this very interesting quote, not in relation to that question but certainly worth looking at, anyway:

8. We have to take the condescension out of education. We've allowed education to become an identity. We have allowed our education to putrefy into arrogance. Education should change you.

I don't necessarily blame them (parents) for feeling their kid will go off and become contemptuous of them.

9. When you add that contempt to it (education), it becomes a different animal Education is not so much a state of certainty, than it is a process of inquiry. Education is maybe less about knowing more than someone, and maybe knowing someone.

Why would the author say we have to take the "condescension" out of education? Are you aware of any condescension? In what way? Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Why does she say we've allowed education to become an identity? What does this mean?

Here are the questions on the floor:

Yes, she has. And that begs the question for all of us, what history has she made here? Will there be any result at all?

Bellamarie quoted this very interesting quote, not in relation to that question but certainly worth looking at, anyway:

8. We have to take the condescension out of education. We've allowed education to become an identity. We have allowed our education to putrefy into arrogance. Education should change you.

I don't necessarily blame them (parents) for feeling their kid will go off and become contemptuous of them.

9. When you add that contempt to it (education), it becomes a different animal Education is not so much a state of certainty, than it is a process of inquiry. Education is maybe less about knowing more than someone, and maybe knowing someone.

Why would the author say we have to take the "condescension" out of education? Are you aware of any condescension? In what way? Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Why does she say we've allowed education to become an identity? What does this mean?

What one word for you sums up the book?

What one word sums up your personal reaction to the book?

What one word sums up what you will do with the knowledge you gained from reading the book?

How many stars would you give the book if you were rating it, and why?

Jonathan mentioned

'So how do you see the Westovers's saga playing out? Will people forget this? I've never read anything like it.'

Who could have guessed? The baby in the family, growing up in beautiful Idaho. Gets a PhD in history and sets out to write some history of her own. Reads Virginia Woolf and her history turns into a literary success. It's the honesty of her writing that has surprised everybody.

That's a good answer to another question we need to ask:

What do you think is the most important issue the book raises? What might be its lasting impact, if there is one (that question overlaps the one about how it will play out)...Bellamarie thinks it will not last, what do the rest of you think?

I'll try this one: What one word sums up the book for you? And why?

I've thought about this since I've asked several people and gotten one word answers, it's a fun thing to have to think about.

I think I will have to say, after long thought, that I am unwilling to choose what most people do, things like horrific and staggering and awful and horrible, and focus on her. So I'm going to say:

Inspiring Because if she can escape that horrific experience and teaching and milieu, then it gives hope to others stuck (God forbid) in a similar situation that they too can rise, because she did. And she DID. Nobody can deny that. I am so happy for her and I hope that some day she can find the wherewithal to see the main problem in that family (she comes close several times, like when she told her mother she let her father bully her) so she can move on, and forget this toxic bunch, because they, as Laura Schlessinger, the psychologist on the radio used to say, when together, will always dance the Kabuki Dance they are familiar with.

Somebody needed to break the spell and she did. Kudos to her. I hope others are able to follow her example.

What do you think?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 27, 2019, 09:59:20 AM

(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/Educated.jpg)

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 27, 2019, 10:01:30 AM

And I just realized something else, too, about Tara. I have read in the past about therapy and how if somebody has been wronged as a child that person now as an adult trying to deal with the issues this has caused, some psychologists think for healing, it's helpful for the adult to confront the perpetrator, if possible.

And how if the perpetrator is deceased, then some psychologists advocate going to the grave site and yelling at the grave.

And some advocate removing yourself from the incident entirely, mentally, by, if you have children of that age, picturing that happening to one of them, instead of you, so you can see how unjust or unrealistic the scenario was without your residual emotions. Or if you don't have children of the same age the wrong happened, going around children of that age, perhaps visiting a nursery or school class and then picturing THAT child being in the situation you were in. In other words, being able to see it for what it was, as an adult.

And I just realized that both those things are what she has done with this book. She's confronted them with her anger and also is seeing it through the lens of the child who experienced it.

Brilliant. I think I'll change my one word (changes allowed) to Brilliant.

What's yours?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 27, 2019, 10:18:16 AM

Here are some of the current questions on the floor, for convenience, should there be one we have not tried yet:

Bellamarie quotes Tara as saying:

8. We have to take the condescension out of education. We've allowed education to become an identity. We have allowed our education to putrefy into arrogance. Education should change you.

I don't necessarily blame them (parents) for feeling their kid will go off and become contemptuous of them.

9. When you add that contempt to it (education), it becomes a different animal Education is not so much a state of certainty, than it is a process of inquiry. Education is maybe less about knowing more than someone, and maybe knowing someone.

Why would the author say we have to take the "condescension" out of education? Are you aware of any condescension? In what way? Do you agree or disagree with this statement? What contempt is she talking about?

Why does she say we've allowed education to become an identity? What does this mean?

What one word for you sums up the book?

What one word sums up your personal reaction to the book?

What one word sums up what you will do with the knowledge you gained from reading the book?

Do you think this book will have any lasting effect or result? How has it affected you?

How many stars would you give the book if you were rating it, and why?

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: bellamarie on July 27, 2019, 04:56:22 PM

Ginny,

Quote

Please rest assured that everyone here HAS read your words above, several times, and DOES understand that they are your considered opinion on the veracity of the book, and that you need feel no anxiety to repeat them: we've got it. :)

Please rest assured, I feel no anxiety. I did not repeat my words, any more times, than you yourself continued to repeat yours, as everyone here HAS read yours, several times, and DOES understand that they are your considered opinion on the veracity of the book, and you need to feel no anxiety to repeat them. We've got it. :)

Ginny,

Quote

Instead of using this situation as a teachable moment to explain cleanliness, Mom succumbs to the green eyed demon herself, "and a jealousy lights her eyes."

Tara took liberty in saying what others felt, just like when she assumed her mother felt jealousy, and you have gone one step further, in labeling her succumbing to "the green eyed demon herself.

Neither Tara's words, nor yours, are facts, but indeed make for good fiction reading. Oops! Sorry I repeated myself, once again. :)

It's obvious, I see one perspective, you see another. I can respect that, and agree to disagree.

I am over discussing this book. I enjoyed taking the days off for my birthday, and have no desire to continue debating our different points of view.

My one word for the book is: Perception..... Tara has her own perception of things, and all the other family members, have a different one.

I agree with the psychologist, and lawyer...Grain of salt. Oops sorry, I repeated myself again. :)

To quote the famous author, Rudyard Kipling, in his Barrack-room ballads, 1892:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet."

Thank you Ginny, for bringing this book to our attention, and deciding to make it our July discussion. I am so glad your eye surgery went well.

Thank you Jonathan and PatH., for sticking with this very spirited discussion.

My apologies for being redundant.

I wish you all well. Happy Reading!

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: Jonathan on July 28, 2019, 12:03:42 PM

I'm so pleased to read that the story has a happy ending. I find it in Bellamarie's post:

'I happened to watch yet another one of Tara's video interviews. In this one, she is very much different than in a prior one. In this interview she seems older, more confident, more intelligent, more playful, and self assured. She has changed her hair color to blonde with highlights, wears a stylish black leather jacket, and I get the sense she is comfortable in her own skin, at last.'

I had the feeling early on that she had to get something off her chest, like the Ancient Mariner. So I'll go back to my first impression, for the one word that sums up the book, 'Shriven'. And for an alternate title: 'HONESTLY!', pronounced so as to suggest the ambivalence and ambuguity of the subject. She has probably encouraged other writers to try a true story.

What a lively discussion. Thanks, Ginny, Bellamarie, Pat.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 28, 2019, 04:51:44 PM

Another great title, thank you Jonathan, and Bellamarie. I really appreciate the dedication of the group to providing as always a great discussion, I can't think of anything we've not covered, but if any of you can, please feel free to add it here as we prepare to close our 2nd only Mini in 23 years.

This has been a relatively long Mini discussion but you had so much to add, I would have hated to miss it, and I have heard some nice comments from those people reading along, even though not participating, and that makes me feel that we've done a good job.

I think star wise on rating the book, on a scale from 1-5, 5 being the best, I'm going to have to give the book a 5 for the courage it took to write it, how well it is written, and for what I hope the result will be: that more people can see it and say there is somebody like me, but she succeeded, and I can, too. In whatever field.

Thank you all for a lively, provocative, and enjoyable discussion. I have appreciated your dedication and thoughtful responses.

:)

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 28, 2019, 07:29:44 PM

Well, it's been a good, meaty discussion; we raised issues I never would have thought of, and saw all kinds of things.

Bellamarie, the discussion must have been somewhat painful for you, since you suffered through some of the problems in the book. But you overcame them, and made for yourself a life full of love and caring and faith solid as a rock. You must be proud of yourself, certainly I'm very impressed.

Jonathan, I like the notion of "shriven". Absolution washes everything clean and makes a new start. Let's hope Tara gets there, and finds her new life.

Ginny, thank you for leading us, and adding so much. You always make the discussions sparkle.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: PatH on July 28, 2019, 07:34:49 PM

I don't want to give the book a sacred rating, but I know I won't forget it. And although it's a minor bit in the book, I think of it in terms of one of what for me is a very strong visual image: Tara running along the ridge of the Cambridge chapel to see the view, unafraid of the wind, because she knows she can walk in it on the ground, so why should she fear it here.

Title: Re: Educated ~ Tara Westover ~ Mini discussion~ July 19
Post by: ginny on July 28, 2019, 09:28:32 PM

Oh I should have asked that question, it's a scene I find myself thinking about a lot, too!!! Wish I had thought of that, but I'm so glad you expressed it.

Well since we all have had our turn, it seems it's time to strike the tent. It was short, but substantial, I think. A very good book to discuss.

I really like the shorter format for the summer. I enjoyed that, very much.

Many thanks to you all, and happy rest of the summer.