Author Topic: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online  (Read 79237 times)

JoanK

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #240 on: September 21, 2010, 02:43:48 PM »
 :o
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online

Zeitoun ~  by David Eggers
 
 
       
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material."   Mike Sullivan  About.com Book review

"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction"  Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review
 
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:

Sept l -8           PART I
Sept. 9 - 16          PART II
Sept. 17- 23         PART III
Sept. 22-25          Part IV, (September 6 --September 19) Zeitoun
Sept. 26-30          Part IV,  (Sptember 19)-- end Cathy, followup
 


Related links::
   Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak;
  About David Eggers; the town of Arwad;

FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION

1. What struck you the most about Cathy's experience trying to free Zeitoun?

2. What do you think would have happened if the Zeitouns hadn't known a lawyer and been able to afford to hire him?

3.Why do you think that Cathy showed more afteraffects than Zeitoun?

4. Did the interview with the man who arrested Zeitoun change your view on what had happened?

5. What is the main thing you will take away from having read this book?
  



 
Discussion Leaders:   Ella & JoanK





 

JoanK

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #241 on: September 21, 2010, 02:46:14 PM »
We weren't going to move on until the 24th, but I think we're ready to move on tomorrow. I suggest that first we discuss Zeitoun's experiences in prison, and then go on to Cathy's experiences trying to get him out.  As follows:

Sept. 22-25          Part IV, (September 6 --September 19) Zeitoun
Sept. 26-30          Part IV, (Sptember 19) -- End Cathy, followup

New questions are in the heading.

pedln

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #242 on: September 22, 2010, 11:35:28 AM »
Quote
6. What was the thing that you felt the most.

Anger.  That these men were treated so badly, that they had no rights, there was nobody they could call on.

And it painted a very scary picture -- could that happen to anyone?  It did to Merlene Maten, lots of articles about her experience.  Would our home cities react the same way in face of a national emergency.  Does anything go?  Does the end justify the means?

salan

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #243 on: September 22, 2010, 12:53:26 PM »
I am glad that we are going to finish the book.  I had already decided to do so.  My thoughts so far: (1) I don't think Zeitoun stayed because he thought he could help people.  He was concerned about his property at first and talked about feeling like he was on a adventure when he was in his canoe.  It was while he was "adventuring" that he saw the need and then started helping.  (2)  He definitely should have left when  mandatory evacuation was declared.  He had a place to go, money to tide him over and a family who needed him with them.  (3)  It never seemed to occur to him or to Cathy that being Muslim put him at particular risk.  This was after 9/11 and many people in the U.S had become paranoid about Muslims.  Did they not encounter that attitude in N.O.??

Times of disaster bring out the best and the worst in people.  Think of all the citizens of N.O. who were raping and pillageing their fellow citizens.  Then there were other truly good people like Zeitoun who were trying to help.  I am sure that there were many police and military who were doing their absolute best to help.  However, the "rotten apples" got all the media attention.  NO ONE was prepared for this type of disaster.  I think the military needed to be called in to help rescue and maintain order, BUT they needed better leadership to know how to go about this.  I don't blame them for taking Zeitoun in for questioning.  They didn't know why he was breaking into homes that weren't his.  However, they should have checked on his story and they had no right to treat him the way they did when he was brought in. 

Now to finish the story and maybe change my mind about all of this.
Sally

JoanP

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #244 on: September 22, 2010, 12:56:32 PM »
Let's say that if the whole thing were to happen again...the levee breached, homes and streets flooded...what do you think needs to be done?

For one thing....mandatory evacuation should be ordered, I think.  Escape routes planned a head of time, buses ordered to take out those with no  means.  

Last night I saw a special on the dedication of the new athletic facility at McMain High School in New Orleans on ESPN. It was amazing how the kids have been doing in this school for the last five years.  The place should have been condemned.  No showers, indescribable toilets... What was of interest to me - the many, many teenagers that were interviewed and what they had to say about their experience in during and after Katrina.  MOST of them stayed - did not evacuate and had nothing negative to say about those who came to their rescue.  They were sincerely grateful.  

Should the National Guard be called if it happens again?  Of course!  The Coast Guard?  Of course!  Who else does one call when help is needed.  Consider the alternative if no one is there to help. Pedln asks "would our home cities react the same way in an emergency?"  Call in the National Guard, the Coast Guard if on water?  I think so.  I know the National Guard would be called upon for help here in Arlington.   Look at the work they did in Haiti in recovering the injured and trapped in the earthquake.  

Admittedly, the young men doing the hard work were under great stress, exhausted and in great danger.  They didn't seem to have much needed leadership...anyone to answer to.  It reminds me of the torture of the captured 9/11 suspects in Guantanamo.  It seems that there was no one in command there either.
These guys in New Orleans were young and scared - the looters were armed.

Five years later - can we find what plans are in place in the city of New Orleans in case there is another emergency?    Most sources that I have read say there will be another such occurrence in the future.

Sally, we were posting at the same time - I agree with everything thing you said.  Am eager to learn what plans are in place for future emergencies in New Orleans.  I wonder if the Superdome is part of the plan... Wasn't it ironic that New Orleans went on to win the SuperBowl following the hurricane?

PatH

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #245 on: September 22, 2010, 04:09:09 PM »
It's hard for me to stop sputtering with indignation and say anything coherent.  It's interesting to contrast the bad time of Zeitoun and Kathy.  Kath was safe and physically comfortable and with her children, but she was frantic from not knowing what had happened to her husband, thinking he must be dead.  Zeitoun was being physically abused and emotionally degraded, and didn't know what would happen to him, but at least he knew his family was safe.

Which was worse?

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #246 on: September 22, 2010, 04:31:04 PM »
I think Zeitouns situation was worse. He thought he could be shipped off to Guantanamo Bay. He thought he would never see his family again. He was being treated appallingly. Torture by proxy in my opinion. Kathy thought her husband was dead but she was not imprisoned and suffering physical deprivations as well as mental torture.

It would be very hard for me to trust anyone in authority ever again if I was Zeitoun. I don't think I would ever be the same person I was. Zeitoun must have suffered after effects. His wife did and I am sure he did too.

Being an avid animal lover as most of you know it was terribly hard for me to read about the fates of animals in this book.

Carolyn

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #247 on: September 22, 2010, 04:57:09 PM »
I have been ill and missed such good conversation about Zeitoun and his family; so happy to be back.  CAROLYN, I agree that Zeitoun's situation was the worse than Kathy's - that prison situation was terrible; sleeping on the pavement, the prisoners "half mad with fatigue and confusion."  What publicity did this get after it was all over?  Have measures been put into effect to disallow this kind of situation or would it likely happen again in a disaster such as this?

JOANP, there was a mandatory evacuation, it's in the book I'm not sure just where, but so many things could have been done.  All those school buses sitting in a lot could have been used to transport people out of the city and city buses?

Oh, dear, a thunderstorm, got to get off.  More later.

PatH

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #248 on: September 22, 2010, 05:25:16 PM »
A lot of people who stayed did so because they had no way to get out of the city and no place to go.  Both these problems would have to be solved to make things work better next time.

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #249 on: September 22, 2010, 06:10:30 PM »
Ella - Sorry you have been ill. I hope you are recovered now.

A person or family on minimum wage would barely have enough to pay basic expenses. They would have no money to get out. Some probably had no cars. No money for busfares etc. I thought that at the time of Katrina when there were some comments from unthinking people it was their own fault if they were caught in such bad circumstances.

Here the army would evacuate people and also there would be free buses and the Govt would pick up the tab if ever a mass evacuation was necessary. I think the whole problem was there was no coordination between the various agencies who had responsibility for disaster situations.

Our recent disaster was coordinated from the bunker under the Beehive (Our Parliamentary buildings) That is where Civil Defence operates from- there are also the Govt reps in the bunker as part of the disaster management. It is fortunate that we learned from Katrina and there were concerted efforts to improve our disaster responses. Maybe without this example we would not be as prepared as we are today. Not nice to think because of Katrina our disaster tactics worked well in our recent disaster.



Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #250 on: September 22, 2010, 06:22:51 PM »
I just saw the new questions and must answer a couple now.  I hate the thought that I am prejudiced against Muslims, but I have to admit I am suspicious.  I know that's wrong and any new minority is always questioned, but somehow they stand out.  Their mosques, their religion, their strict laws about women.  Why should women have to wear particular clothing.

CAROLYN, I know you posted about your DIL.  I understand tolerance, I do, and I think you said she does not have to wear a hajeb, is that right.  Of course, New Zealand is not a Muslim country and, therefore, no government is restricting her rights or the rights of tourists.  Did you notice that Andrea Mitchel and Hillary Clinton cover their hair when interviewing any Muslim?  I resent it!

YEs, I agree with JOANP, that the National Guard and the Coast Guard should have been called in and there are two sides to this problem.  Zeitoun should not have been in the city.  The soldiers were suspicious of Zeitoun and his friends; they could have been looters.  They had money on them.  They were middle easterns and could not speak English very well.

But the soldiers were too quick to send them to a prison without a phone call, definitely.

Much in the news about Blackwater, good and bad I suppose.  I'm going to look on the web for comments about this company.  They were hired mercenaries in the Iraq war weren't they?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #251 on: September 22, 2010, 06:35:18 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide

The company has a wide array of business divisions, subsidiaries, and spin-off corporations but the organization as a whole has aroused significant controversy.[4][5][6][7][8]

Based in North Carolina, Xe operates a tactical training facility (36°27'N 76°12'W? / ?36.45°N 76.2°W? / 36.45; -76.2) that the company claims is the world's largest, where it trains more than 40,000 people a year, mostly from U.S. and other military and police services. The training consists of military offensive and defensive operations, as well as smaller scale personal security.

Xe is currently the largest of the U.S. State Department's three private security contractors. Of the 987 contractors Xe provides, 744 are U.S. citizens.[9][10] At least 90% of the company's revenue comes from government contracts, of which two-thirds are no-bid contracts.[11] Xe provided security services in Iraq to the United States federal government, particularly the Central Intelligence Agency[1] on a contractual basis. They no longer have a license to operate in Iraq: the new Iraqi government made multiple attempts to expel them from their country,[12] and denied their application for an operating license in January 2009.[13] However, the company is still under contract with the State Department and some Xe personnel were working legally in Iraq at least until September 2009.[14]

In October 2007, the company, Blackwater USA, was renamed Blackwater Worldwide. It announced on February 13, 2009 that it would operate under the new name "Xe." In a memo sent to employees, President Gary Jackson wrote that the new name "reflects the change in company focus away from the business of providing private security." A spokesperson for the company stated that it feels the Blackwater name is too closely associated with the company's work in the occupation of Iraq.[15] Spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell said there was no meaning in the new name, which the company took over a year to arrive at in an internal search.

Blackwater was also hired during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina by the United States Department of Homeland Security, as well as by private clients, including communications, petrochemical and insurance companies.[19] Overall, the company has received over $1 billion USD in U.S. government contracts.






A very suspicious company.  Are they needed this day and age, who knows?

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #252 on: September 22, 2010, 06:47:03 PM »
Blackwater is indeed a suspect company! What gets me is the billions of dollars disappeared in Iraq that cannot be accounted for and also the billions paid to contractors. I read empty trucks were travelling in Iraq from one place to another and charging for this!!!!!!! I absolutely abhor taxpayers from any nation being ripped off and I feel there was a lot of this going on.

There is a lot of information about Blackwater available on the net. Why WERE they in NO?

Ella there are many fundamentalist Christians too with very strict dress codes and judgemental attitudes just as there are Muslims. There are also many millions of Muslims who are moderates just like there are millions of moderate Christians.

Sometimes when I see young girls walking round in the street in clothing we would consider suitable for beachwear I wonder if we have gone too far the other way.

Carolyn

JoanP

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #253 on: September 23, 2010, 09:27:20 AM »
 I know what you mean about the way some girls dress - especially in  summer!  I would think it is especially tough on the boys whose hormones are racing in the early teen years. (says this mother of four boys.) I'm wondering whether the Zeitoun girls will be wearing the hijab to school.   After A. Zeitoun's experience, do you imagine the Zeitoun's are less likely to draw attention to themselves.  I see in the photo that Kathy still wears hers, but not sure about the girls......



Zeitoun's experience was heart-wrenching, he was treated in an inhuman way...no one will argue with that.  As you say -
Quote
There are also many millions of Muslims who are moderates just like there are millions of moderate Christians.
 Unfortunately 9/11 took such a toll on this country, changed so many inclusive attitudes that I fear there will always be suspicion and FEAR (bordering on paranoia)  that the same thing can happen again.

JoanP

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #254 on: September 23, 2010, 09:38:38 AM »
Reading about emergency disaster measures adopted in your country, Carolyn, I am really interested in hearing about what New Orleans has done to evacuate those without transportation. I  did find this report - it begins with the evacuation plan that was in place before the hurricane/levee break - and then the FEMA, Department of Homeland Security plan later adopted.  I haven't had a chance to look at it closely yet - a quick scan left me unconvinced of its effectiveness when another disaster requiring evacuation arises -

  EVACUATION PLANNING - NEW ORLEANS

pedln

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #255 on: September 23, 2010, 10:17:12 AM »
Swell, the company is suspect, under investigation -- let's just change its name.

Sometimes I think I'm so naive, working with a World War II mentality, idealism, whatever. But I find the thought of our country needing mercenaries to be appalling. Those guys aren't out there for love of country.  The bottom line is money and profit.

It seems to me the big problem was that there was no structure in the chain of command.  Who was reporting to whom?  Who was issuing the orders?  Who had the overall picture?

Yes, the National Guard should have been called in.  Isn't that part of their purpose?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #256 on: September 23, 2010, 01:32:13 PM »
PEDLIN, me, too!  A WWII mentality, idealism.  That's us, right or wrong, and one wonders what in the world we are doing interfering in other countries, getting our soldiers killed.  First Vietnam - they didn't attack us.  Now Iraq, Afghanistan.

Does anyone understand this?  Sure, 9/11, JOANP, changed us all.  But the reason for a 9-year war?  Couldn't we have stopped when we got Saddam Hussein.  Do we still feel threatened?

And if 9/11 had NOT happened, would our attitude towards Muslims (I know there are moderates) be different.  Of course.   I never knew much about them until then.  Not much about their religion, their culture, but I think there are 7 million Muslim-Americans in the USA.  Quietly I presume, since not many are speaking up for themselves.  They need an NAACP.

Certainly Zeitoun knew about this attitude towards Muslims; I'm sure Cathy did.  I think somewhere the book tells us that Zeitoun was aware of being a Middle Easterner and prejudice in that direction.  So why did he take a chance and stay in the city; particularly when he had seen soldiers in the boats.  I have to go back to the book to see just when that occurred.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #257 on: September 23, 2010, 01:33:13 PM »
Thanks for the picture, JOANP!  I think one of the daughters is wearing a hajeb isn't she?  The one sitting right by Kathy?

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #258 on: September 23, 2010, 01:55:21 PM »
Here is Zeitoun telling the story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOgLqUWnn5k

It's distracting that the interview is done in a restaurant. 

At the end he talks about being  a Muslim in America, but it is hard to understand with that noise.  I must listen again to it.


JoanK

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #259 on: September 23, 2010, 02:54:10 PM »
I'm afraid the noise defeated me.

On The side, that web site showed this: nothing to do with Zeitoun, but interesting. The author, receiving a TED award.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QbzvT6vko&feature=related

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #260 on: September 23, 2010, 03:03:47 PM »
I think because Zeitoun fitted into his community so well and was accepted by so many he did not think he was in any danger at all. He also hated to think of all he had worked for being lost completely when maybe he could restrict the inevitable damage.

A few years ago when Syria was very much treated with suspicion and hostility one of our TV reporters did one of our "Intrepid Journeys". She travelled through Syria with a documentary crew. She was treated with nothing but kindness and felt very safe the whole time she was there. She met many ordinary Syrians including many Muslim women. She was always invited into homes and fed. The Syrians have a rich culture and wonderful food.

About Iraq. I do not believe in removing Leaders of Nations. If people really want change they will revolt and change it themselves. It never works out when other nations interfere. And so it has not. Things are worse. The 9/11 bombers were mostly Saudis and no Iraqis were involved. Surely if this interference was related to 9/11 should it not have been Saudi Arabia which was invaded? The collateral damage was terrible in Iraq. You can understand why ordinary people then turned hostile.

JoanK

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #261 on: September 23, 2010, 03:04:55 PM »
ELLA'S BACK. HOORAH!!!

PatH

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #262 on: September 23, 2010, 04:59:52 PM »
Before Katrina, Zeitoun was definitely aware of the danger he was in as a Muslim.  There is a comment about how careful he was to avoid anything that might get him stopped, for a traffic offense for instance, because of the way he might be perceived.  Black people have the same problem; they are more likely to be stopped, and more likely to get ticketed than whites.

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #263 on: September 23, 2010, 06:05:41 PM »
That is sad Pat. I fear its the same here in some instances. Not so much with Muslims but definately with those whose skin is coloured. If you are a native NZer here you are more likely to be imprisoned than a white person up on the same offence. It might be because most white people can afford a better lawyer. They are also generally better educated.

Carolyn

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #264 on: September 24, 2010, 12:26:41 PM »
Yes, isn't it sad, CAROLYN AND PAT!  I'm sure most of us feel this way but I think America has improved slightly since the Civil Rights Act, do you agree? 

The Muslims are the new black, they need a NAACP.  Perhaps they have such an organization, one that will fight for their rights?  One that is respected.

Isn't it prophesized that sometime in the near future, whites will be in the minority?  A new chapter in history will be written; many of us will not be here to be involved, but should be interesting to speculate.  History is on their side for one thing, does that matter?  I suppose if we go back to ancient history, all people were arabic or african, weren't they?

JoanP

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #265 on: September 24, 2010, 01:04:42 PM »
Great interview, Ella!  My, isn't Zeitoun a nice looking man...such soft gentle eyes.  He didn't get all emotional as he spoke of his treatment - quite objective, wasn't he?

I'd been wondering when Katrina had turned into part of the war on terror resulting from 9-11.  Even though we were reading about Zeitoun's Syrian background and Kathy's conversion to Islam, I really wasn't expecting that things would spiral downward into Zeitoun taken in as a member of al Quaida - as a member of the Taliban.  Thought he was arrested being arrested as a looter... I guess he did too.

Part IV clears up such questions.  Even the Coast Guard sent "tactical units formed as part of the war on terror."  Some of the National Guard troops were young men "straight from Afghanistan and Iraq."  Let's not forget their mind-set - where they were coming from.

I'm not so sure Zeitoun's treatment was discrimination against his race.  

Kathy later read a  document on the web that shed more light on the soldiers' state of mind... a 21 page document issued in 2003 by the Dept. of Homeland Security to Marines, security firms, CIA - warning of possible terrorist exploitation of a high category hurricane...spoke of hostage situations, attacks on shelters , atttacks on evacuation routes.  The document states this goal - "reduce the threat by terrorists, increase vigilance, watch unattended vehicles, splinter terrorist cells, religious extremists..."

Zeitoun and Nasser "fit the profile"  of what they were looking for.  

Of course this does not excuse the treatment they received...even if they WERE the Taliban.

JoanK

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #266 on: September 24, 2010, 02:29:35 PM »
It's time to read on to the end of the book, if you haven't already. I've put some new questions in the heading.

JoanK

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #267 on: September 24, 2010, 03:23:31 PM »
OOOPS -- Senior moment. I misread the date, and thought it was the 26th. Discuss anything you want.

PatH

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #268 on: September 24, 2010, 04:45:31 PM »
Did anyone else find it suspicious that all the early meals Zeitoun got contained pork?  I wondered if the guards were deliberately picking them out for him just to be mean.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #269 on: September 24, 2010, 05:33:27 PM »
Yes, PAH, I did and the jailers with not our Afghan soldiers were they?  There is a reason for all this.

But goodness, we just have a few days left to complete the discussion don't we?  It's difficult to read these stories of the prisoners, so innocent, and so mistreated.  The 73-year old who went to her car and back to the hotel being arrested for looting and on and on.  She slept on the concrete also, can you imagine.  Now, that is not defensible in any way.  

Zeitoun questions everything he had done, everything he had hoped for, and thought the country was "broken....was fallible, mistakes were being made, innocents suspected, imprisoned." He's in pain, depressed, nothing is working.  Poor fellow.  I wonder how he will get over this experience and become hopeful again about the country, the city, the police.

I think most of us, after it was all over and we were well again, would want some sort of retaliation, such as letters to our local paper, interviews to the press; however we could get it out what had happened to us and why.  In order to make sure it doesn't happen again.

CAROLYN, your opinion is valued, you have an outside view of America that it is hard for us to grasp.  What does the world think about the country and are we exploited on TV for everything bad that happens here, or do sometimes they approve of something.  

As long as there is an Israel and America is its friend, I think the Muslims will either dislike us or hate us and try to destroy us.  Just an opinion, of course.  That is why I am suspicious and I don't like it all!  They are united in this no matter where they live.

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #270 on: September 24, 2010, 05:50:52 PM »
Firstly having been a victim of American displeasure and being sent to Coventry for three decades by the American Administrations because of our nuclear free policy we did not like America much for those decades. However Bill Clinton changed all that. Then came Mr Bush. We felt justified in helping in Afghanistan because they were ruled by a regime which were allied to Al Quaeda but we were not involved in Operation Shock and Awe as it was not sanctioned by the UN and therefore was a unilateral decision by Blair and Bush. We did go in on humanitarian grounds after the bombing. Most of us were horrified at the collateral damage in Iraq. We began to feel antagonistic towards the American administration. We felt there was extreme arrogance and dreadful ignorance about Middle Eastern affairs. Instead of liberation things got worse. Anyone who knew anything about Iraq would have known that this would happen. There would be extreme unrest between the Shia and the secular state run by the Sunnis. Shia want Islamic rule. Iraq will never be at peace now. Its in a worse state than it was as far as infrastructure etc goes and with the Shia being the majority they are imposing their will on the people by terrifying them so much the women doctors etc are scared to go to work.




kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #271 on: September 24, 2010, 06:01:59 PM »
Continuing my post. We still have our elite troops and some ordinary soldiers in Afghanistan I am not sure if we are still working in Iraq.

Then we got Obama. Most of us love Obama no matter which side of the fence we sit politically. We were so happy for him when he was elected and we wanted the American people to have some sort of Universal Healthcare. Its not perfect but at least the uninsured would have not been bankrupted because they could not afford care. We were happy that he is a good Statesman like Bill Clinton. America can no longer afford to stand alone on the world stage. China is now the richest nation and holds everyone in their financial grip. America needs to cultivate good will and I think Obama is doing this. I think generally now we have a much better attitude towards the US than we did. We don't want to be told what to do politically and I think large nations whoever they are need to respect the tiny countries sovereignty. That goes for all the super powers.

Americans do have to realise that their President can affect the lives of others in small nations by foreign policy therefore we take an intense interest in your Politics as we do with China and Russia. Therefore we do often participate in political forums which are discussion US politics.

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #272 on: September 24, 2010, 06:07:02 PM »
We have more in common with the US in so many areas than we do with China and Russia. I resent the kow towing to China. They have abyssmal human rights records. They are not a true Communist state but more a totalitarian regime which is the opposite to the pure Communism. They also compete unfairly as their currency is grossly undervalued and they refuse to adjust this. That gets me really mad.

I hope that our relations with the US will continue as they are now. Hillary Clinton is visiting soon. It makes such a difference to be considered in foreign policy and  not ignored because we are so tiny therefore not worth visiting.

Carolyn

pedln

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #273 on: September 24, 2010, 11:15:50 PM »
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It makes such a difference to be considered in foreign policy and  not ignored because we are so tiny therefore not worth visiting.

Carolyn, you make an excellent point there, and one that many of us here might be unaware of.  I feel comfortable with Obama in charge of our country’s foreign policy, partly because of the regard those in other countries have for him. 

Did you know that the French Senate voted 246 tp 1 to ban the full veils worn by Muslim women.  The actual name of the ban is Forbidding the Concealing of the Face in the Public Space.

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“Under the new law, both the niqab, a facial scarf with a separate head covering, and the burqa would be outlawed in public spaces. According to estimates, roughly 2,000 women out of France's estimated Muslim population of up to 6 million wear such veils, the BBC reported. The law does not ban the hijab, a head scarf that leaves a woman's face uncovered.”

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2. What do you think would have happened if the Zeitouns hadn't known a lawyer and been able to afford to hire him?

Zeitoun would have been in jail for several more months. One thing that surprised me was that Kathy did not try to contact any of the politicians representing their state.  (Or if they did, I missed that.)

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5. What is the main thing you will take away from having read this book?

A process for governing has to be in place, and due process in regard to individuals must be adheard to. The system in New Orleans was completely broken, but I wonder just how strong a process was present to begin with.

They’re two entirely different disasters, but the aftermath of 9/11 was handled so much better than that of Katrina. Structure and process were in place and were followed.  Katrina was more like Haiti where 17% of the government was killed in the earthquake. Governments have to plan ahead.

kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #274 on: September 25, 2010, 03:33:13 PM »
I think if we had a disaster in Auckland our resources would be really stretched. The army would definately have to be deployed as we have such a sprawling city. The civil defence headquarters for my part of the city is about three minutes drive from my house. I like to think they know our area well and would be prepared. A city has to be prepared to deal with the fact that the poor in their city will not have the resources to evacuate. Many of them live from week to week and its an extremely expensive country and city to live in. There must be a plan to commandeer public transport (buses etc) to evacuate those who cannot get themselves away. Our biggest threat is volcanic activity and tsunamis in Auckland. Auckland is surrounded by sea as we are a narrow isthmus. Our city has 49 extinct volcanos. The biggest of these is Rangitoto Island which last erupted 600 years ago.

After all my reading about NO there is only two solutions really either renew all the levees to cover all possibilities or the land that was flooded should never again be built upon. A situation like Katrina could happen again as our weather is so volatile now due to global warming. I know how much warmer it is where I live. 30 years ago we got frosts. Heavy frosts for one month of the year now it barely hits the ground and is gone when we get up.

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #275 on: September 25, 2010, 06:13:44 PM »
Thank you so much, CAROLYN.  We're getting into politics here, rather than Hurricane Katrina and the Zeitoun family, but it is a opportunity to learn about America from someone in the outside world.  I was interested by this observation you made, because it is something so many of us believe:

"We felt there was extreme arrogance and dreadful ignorance about Middle Eastern affairs. Instead of liberation things got worse. Anyone who knew anything about Iraq would have known that this would happen. There would be extreme unrest between the Shia and the secular state run by the Sunnis. Shia want Islamic rule. Iraq will never be at peace now. Its in a worse state than it was as far as infrastructure etc goes and with the Shia being the majority they are imposing their will on the people by terrifying them so much the women doctors etc are scared to go to work."

The American people, I feel, have been led into too many wars, too many young men killed, because of ignorance of a people's culture and their affairs, their tenacity.

But back to the book.  

Some of this book is so unbelievable.  Camp Greyhound where Zeitoun was incarcerated; a source of fascination by the poeple of New Orleans.  Well, I should think so!  It was built quickly by the prisoners from two institutions.  I looked up the penitentiary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary  - The Alcatrz of the South

"On August 31, 2008, New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin stated in a press conference that any New Orleans residents found looting during the evacuation of the city due to Hurricane Gustav would be arrested and immediately transported to Angola prison."

How horrible, what a threat - read about that prison!!!  And stay out of New Orleans!







Persian

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #276 on: September 25, 2010, 10:20:03 PM »
JOAN - thanks very much for your invitation to join this discussion.  Wish I'd known about it when it began.  There is so much for all of us to consider about Zeitoun's behavior and the manner in which he set out to explore after the catastrophe.  Why he was suspicious to officials?
Why did he have cash in his pockets, when so many folks carry little if any cash these days?  Was his personal manner (or skin color or tone of voice) considered suspicious?  If so, why.  Perhaps because he did NOT have that well-known New Orleans style of speaking?

ELLA - it's good to read your very detailed comments about the Muslims in the USA.  Surely, you (and others) should be suspicious if an event like what Zeitoun experienced happened in your area.  I was in the metropolitan Washington DC area on the day of 9/11.  I had many friends working at the Pentagon.  Boy, did I go into "controlled panic mode" as my son (who was in another area of the USA on that day) stayed on our cell phones most of the day with each other.

The misunderstanding, suspicions and/or absolute lack of knowledge about Muslims in the USA affects folks in a range of ways.  Some want to learn more about the faith and culture from which these folks come - Islam is NOT practiced the same world-wide, although that is generally NOT well known to non-Muslims.

Personal behavior - a sense of quietness (verbally and/or body movement), unwillingness to make direct eye contact while interacting with folks, the idea of a woman wearing a scarf on her head, when others do not, or behavior in any way noticeably different from one's own can always be a bit off-setting.  Your comments n the above posts are important in that they outline many of the areas in which Muslims in the USA (and other Western countries, France included most recently) are NOT well understood.  Or in some cases NOT understood at all.

CAROLYN - your comments about customs in your country are equally important as they lend an excellent opportunity to learn about issues, people and behavior by a range of folks outside the West.  And through the years you have had an excellent opportunity to learn first-hand about Muslim culture as have I.

Some posters may recall that my husband is an Egyptian Muslim (currently in the USA on a leave of absence from his home university outside Cairo).  And although I am a native Californian, a Christian and the mother of a Christian U.S. Army Chaplain (currently deployed in Iraq),  I've spent a number of years focused professionally on the Middle East, Central Asia and the Muslim communities world-wide.

When JOAN invited me to participate in this discussion and offer some comments, I was happy to do so.  Taken to the basics, Zeitoun is one Muslim; his own cultural and family background in his native country must be factored into his behavior.  NOT ONLY the fact that he is a Muslim.

ELLA - back to some of your comments, which make perfect sense to me as I have encountered many folks in the USA and abroad who pose the same (or similar thoughts) about Islam and its believers, whether pertaining to religious, family, dress or the modesty encouraged for women, they are ALL important thoughts to share with others.

An example:  I wonder how many Western women realize that there is an ENORMOUS sector of business WOMEN in Saudi Arabia - THE most conservative Islamic country in the world - yet many of these women, who are NOT permitted by Saudi law to hold a driver's license, are multi-millionaires (perhaps a few billionaires) and hold regular jobs.  They just are NOT visible in public in the way that our female business executives are!  They have enormous business powers, but again NOT IN PUBLIC, thus adhering to the custom that Muslimas (female Muslims) are NOT to be "viewed" publicly.

The idea of some of our female government representatives (Hilary Clinton comes readily to mind) wear headscarves when meeting with conservative MALE representatives should NOT be construed as "bending" to the males, but simply as a sign of courtesy AND recognition of the conservative female culture in the male representative's culture.  It's simply polite to do so.  I've worn head scarves worldwide when I was working for exactly the same reason.  And I took off my shoes several times when I entered the Women's sector of an Islamic mosque.
Simply out of courtesy for the tradition!

Being respectful of others does NOT mean "giving in" or "bending" to customs that are not our own.

Perhaps as the discussion continues about this one book, some of the posters here might like to glance at the list of titles I posted earlier today in the SeniorLearn site where I inquired if there would be any discussions on various aspects of Islam and Muslims.  Sure wish I had known about THIS discussion earlier, but it's a pleasure to have been invited to do so tonight.

And the insightful comments here remind of the classes I used to teach at my former home University in Maryland.  After retirement, I continued many of those classes for the Egyptian Cultural Bureau in Washington DC and as seminars for other diplomatic sites in the area as their staff welcomed new colleagues to Washington who needed to know about their Muslim colleagues.

It's good to be back among posters with whom I've interacted for many years (in the former SN site as well as the new ones) and to share your enjoyment of continued learning of world issues.

Mahlia


kiwilady

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #277 on: September 25, 2010, 11:17:42 PM »
Hello Mahlia nice to see you!

Our latest news is that Al Quaeda have threatened to kidnap athletes from countries involved in the Commonwealth Games that are also fighting in Afghanistan. That is of course Australia and NZ along with a few others. Spectators also have been advised not to wear our national emblems at the games. Security around our team is huge. I wonder now if some of the athletes will not go.Some athletes from other countries have already pulled out due to the bad facilities in the games village and worry about security.

It is a bit worrying to say the least!

Carolyn

Persian

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #278 on: September 25, 2010, 11:35:27 PM »
CAROLYN - really good to catch up with you, too.  I thought of you several times as I posted my previous comments and recalled the earlier days when your SIL was becoming more familiar to your family and my husband was making more trips to the USA.  Before I posted my earlier comments, I read an email from my son in Iraq, who described a recent "encounter" between his soldiers and the locals in "a battle hot area of the country."  But he clearly stipulated that NOT all the locals he has encountered are treacherous.  In fact, he and several of his fellow Chaplains were able to donate food and join in some of the meals for their Iraqi civilian contractors as they broke their fasts in the evening during the recent celebration of the Holy Islamic month of Ramadan.  I truly had to smile when my son commented that he daily appreciates having learned so much about the Middle Eastern and Central Asian cultures when he was growing up through my own interests and professional endeavors.

There has been news in the Western press about the threats of kidnapping athletes during sporting events AND it is a major worry for all concerned.  I surely would not blame any teams which decided to withdraw for the safety of their athletes.  Human life is just too precious!  The vile condition of so many of the proposed residential sites for the Games was absolutely disgusting but, again, I would focus more on security.  GOOD O for your security fellows as they extend substantial security to the athletes.

Mahlia

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Zeitoun ~ David Eggers - September Book Club Online
« Reply #279 on: September 26, 2010, 09:58:24 AM »
Thanks, MAHLIA, for all your comments.  Nice to see you posting here!  Have you read the book? 

Here is the Zeitoun Foundation site, listing all the awards the books has been granted.  I notice there is one from an American Muslim Association.

http://www.zeitounfoundation.org/