Author Topic: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll  (Read 40983 times)

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2014, 05:40:52 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
April/May Book Club Online ~ Starting April 15
Alice in Wonderland
by Lewis Carroll


 
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (commonly called Alice in Wonderland) was written in 1865 by English author Charles Lutwidge Dodgson under the pseudonym Lewis Carroll.

We can enjoy the novel as a fantasy as well look for the amusing examples of logic contained throughout. Whether or not you've read the story as a child or adult, we welcome you to share our adventures in wonderland.
 
 



Discussion Schedule:
   April 15-20 Opening Poem; Chapters 1 and 2
   April 21-27  Chapters 3 - 6



Some Questions to Consider
Let's share information, as it becomes relevant throughout the book, from any introductions, footnotes or other sources we find.
Let's keep a list of characters we meet, as well as animals that are mentioned in the poems and ballads.

April 28 - May 5 Chapter 7 - 9

Chapter 7:  
 1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?
 2. What is a dormouse?
 3. Carroll originally didn't have an answer to the riddle of the raven and the writing desk, but many have been suggested since,  Do you have one?
 4. What do you think of the surreal version of time pictured here?
 5. Who are Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie?
 6. This chapter is full of puns; do you have any favorites?
 7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad.  Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?
 8. How does Alice finally get into the garden?

Chapter 8:
 1. How do the suits and values of the cards fit their occupations and stations in life?
 2. “Off with their head” is the Queen of Hearts’ reaction to everything.  How come any of them are left alive?
 3. What do you think of the croquet game?  Could it actually be possible to play it?
 4. Could one behead a bodiless creature?



Discussion Leaders:  PatH and Marcie

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #161 on: April 26, 2014, 05:41:08 PM »
The caterpillar seems quite literal to me. He questions everything that Alice says and provides only short responses.

"What do you mean by that?' said the Caterpillar sternly. 'Explain yourself!'

'I can't explain MYSELF, I'm afraid, sir' said Alice, 'because I'm not myself, you see.'

'I don't see,' said the Caterpillar.

'I'm afraid I can't put it more clearly,' Alice replied very politely, 'for I can't understand it myself to begin with; and being so many different sizes in a day is very confusing.'

'It isn't,' said the Caterpillar.

'Well, perhaps you haven't found it so yet,' said Alice; 'but when you have to turn into a chrysalis—you will some day, you know—and then after that into a butterfly, I should think you'll feel it a little queer, won't you?'

'Not a bit,' said the Caterpillar. ..."

bookad

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #162 on: April 26, 2014, 09:40:01 PM »
I love that caterpillar....I think he is my favourite character so far.
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #163 on: April 27, 2014, 12:40:19 AM »
Deb, the caterpillar IS quite an unusual character. What a dramatic imagination Lewis Carroll had to create so many different characters and give them such interesting dialog.

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #164 on: April 27, 2014, 12:42:25 AM »
We can still continue to talk about the caterpillar and the pigeon too as we move on tomorrow to Chapter 6 and the house of the Duchess.

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2014, 06:22:32 AM »
It was an interesting progression, I thought, from Alice's certainty that the White Rabbit would be surprised when he finds out WHO she is, to the Caterpillar's unanswered question when he asks, "WHO are YOU," to the Pigeon's question - "WHAT are you", and Alice's uncertain reply, "I'm a little girl (rather doubtfully.)"

Does Alice seem to be enjoying this adventure in Wonderland as a pleasant dream at this point, or would she welcome the chance to return home if she discovered a way out?

Just read that Alice is still determined to get into the beautiful garden...and had had enough presence of mind to hold on to the mushroom chunks to change her size at will!

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #166 on: April 27, 2014, 08:48:33 PM »
Alice is confused but seems determined to "participate" in Wonderland. She doesn't seem too upset/frustrated to want to get out of there.

How would you describe the Duchess?  The cook?


What have you learned about the origin of the Cheshire Cat?

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #167 on: April 27, 2014, 09:23:08 PM »
Alice has had no change of mind, she is determined to get into the beautiful garden, and as we now see with this week's chapters she does indeed!

How would I describe the Duchess?    One word...UGLY!  My annotation says:  "The chin of Tenniel's Duchess is not very little or sharp, but she is certainly ugly.  It seems likely that he copied a painting attributed to the sixteenth-century Flemish artist Quentin Matsys (his name has variant spellings).  The portrait is popularly regarded as one of the fourteenth-century duchess Margaret of Carinthia and Tyrol.  She had the reputation of being the ugliest woman in history.

The duchess is not only ugly in her looks, but she is also very ugly in her actions with the poor baby and the violent lullaby.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #168 on: April 28, 2014, 12:48:44 AM »
Bellamarie, interesting about the "ugliest woman in history." What a scene with the cook throwing things at the duchess and the baby!

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #169 on: April 28, 2014, 06:40:07 AM »
I found myself wondering what Carroll meant by "nursing" the baby/pig and what young Alice understood him to mean when told by the Duchess to nurse it.

When trying to understand these images, the violent cook,  the unconcerned mother Duchess, the howling pig/ baby ...I could see Alice caught up in a bad dream,  understanding only that she's got to get the baby out of there before they kill it.  Do you dream nonsense sometimes...and wonder what kernel of truth sparked the nonsense?

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #170 on: April 28, 2014, 06:55:38 AM »
Looking for the kernel of truth that may have produced the pig/baby in the dream, I noticed the reference in the Annotations to a story famous at the time, in which "the Countess of Buckingham arranged for His Majesty, James I, to witness the baptism of what he thought was an infant in arms, but was actually a pig, an animal that James I particularly loathed."

I'm going to hunt for more  on that story.  Maybe it was something that both Dodgdon and Alice knew about...

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #171 on: April 28, 2014, 10:58:30 AM »
I also posted earlier that Carroll disliked little boys so much that it is probably why he turned the baby boy into a pig, considered one of the dirtiest, ugliest animals.  

That entire kitchen scene gave me a headache just reading it with things flying, the Duchess and her horrible lullaby, and Alice having to "nurse" the squealing pig baby.  I thought....what on earth is all this commotion about.  I do have dreams of chaos at times and wake up thinking, holy cow, do I need to slow down in life or get some things in better order.

I think when he used the word "nurse" it pretty much meant "care for" the baby pig.



The entire book is nonsensical......so who on earth can make heads or tails of anything.  Speaking of heads or tails, isn't it ironic how one poem, lullaby, or saying always seems to be in contrast to one we use often today?  The lullaby reminded me of,

"The Old Woman in the Shoe"

There was an old woman who lived in a shoe.
She had so many children, she didn't know what to do;
She gave them some broth without any bread;
Then whipped them all soundly and put them to bed


p.s. Tried to post a pic but just can not get the hang of how to do it.  Can some one help me out please?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #172 on: April 28, 2014, 11:07:11 AM »
Joan, I was wondering about "nursing" also but resolved it the same way as Bellamarie: to "care for."

 In addition to the information in the notes in the Annotated version, maybe Carroll remembered the letter his father sent him when he was 7 or 8 in which pigs are associated somewhat with babies in his story: "Then what a bawling & a tearing of hair there will be: Pigs & babies, camels & butterflies, rolling in the gutter together — old women rushing up the chimneys & cows after them — ducks hiding themselves in coffee cups..."

Most of the time I don't remember my dreams but my husband has the craziest dreams. He can't figure out how he imagines them in his sleep.

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #173 on: April 28, 2014, 11:27:49 AM »
Trying to post a pic so bare with me....

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #174 on: April 28, 2014, 03:53:47 PM »
I really like the wacky logic in chapter 6--literally correct, but not quite making sense:

"Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here?"
"That depends a good deal on where you want to get to."
"I don't much care where--"
"Then it doesn't matter which way you go."
"--so long as I get somewhere."
"Oh, you're sure to do that, if you only walk long enough."

Jonathan

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #175 on: April 28, 2014, 03:54:56 PM »
That's a wonderful request, Bellamarie. Lewis Carroll couldn't have put it any better. I can't stop laughing. That's just why I haven't been posting to this lively discussion. I feel I would be baring too much of my soul by commenting on Carroll's dark nonsene. I was alright in my blissful state of innocence until I read the introduction to the annotated edition. I soon concluded that poor Alice had suffered the same fate as Humpty Dumpty. I expected more from a clergyman and a math professor.

Carroll did leave me wondering why the Pope encouraged William to invade and conquer England. And what made a patriot out of the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Perhaps the pic can't get past the censor. LOL.

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #176 on: April 28, 2014, 04:14:27 PM »
Jonathan!!  My dear friend, I have been looking for you and missing you.  I wondered, no pun intended, if you had gotten lost in the Rabbit Hole and couldn't get out with the rest of us......

It is difficult to get past the dark side of Carroll, once you have the knowledge the annotations provide.  I am pushing through and expressing my disbelief and horror as we go.  NOT that I am saying Carroll was on drugs when he created this nonsense, but I can tell you I think I would rather think it, rather than imagine a mind so deluded to be able to come up with this all on his own.  But then again, has he come up with this story on his own?  Considering we are seeing and learning so much contrast to other people's stories, poems, etc., it seems our dear oooops strike that/,/ our dark Carroll has borrowed some of his ideas from others.  It is really great to hear from you Jonathan, and now your innocence and blissful state will never be the same.  So, do you suppose if Alice suffered the same fate as poor Humpty Dumpty,  will all the King's horses and all the King's men fail to put her back together again?

Stick around Jonathan, you always make me laugh out loud!!!  On to this week's chapters.......

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #177 on: April 28, 2014, 05:31:25 PM »
Pat, Jonathan, so good to have you join in here. We need your perspective,  Isn't this wild?  Can you think of another children's story like it?

This is from the original poem Carroll parodies...it's almost as if he just can't resist the urge to parody something devotional, or morally instructional.  Strange for a church deacon, don't you think?

From the Original Poem

Speak gently! -- It is better far
To rule by love, than fear --
Speak gently -- let not harsh words mar
The good we might do here!


Speak gently to the little child!
Its love be sure to gain;
Teach it in accents soft and mild: --
It may not long remain.


And we saw what became of the little child treated harshly...  he has run off - in the guise of the little pig!  
At least Alice tried to look out for him.  Do you think we will see the baby later in the tale?



JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #178 on: April 28, 2014, 06:23:51 PM »
We can't go past the Cheshire Cat without first identifying his importance in the story...why the grinning cat?  And does anyone have any thoughts about what is meant by the grin in the treetop - just the grin, no cat?



Pat, I thought the "wacky logic" in Chapter 6 made perfect sense...what does that say about me?  If you don't know where you are going, what difference does it make which way you go?

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #179 on: April 28, 2014, 06:27:56 PM »
Pat, yes... the caterpillar has literal logic  so much so that it doesn't actually make sense. That must be especially funny for a logic teacher.

Joan, thanks for the original of the poem. I think Carroll's is such a funny contrast.

Speak roughly to your little boy,
And beat him when he sneezes:
He only does it to annoy,
Because he knows it teases.

Chorus
Wow! wow! wow!

I speak severely to my boy,
I beat him when he sneezes;
For he can thoroughly enjoy
The pepper when he pleases!


(Maybe the "Monty Python" group inherited some of his humor.) The Lemony Snicket "Series of Unfortunate Events" are absurd children's books. Perhaps even more so than Alice.

Jonathan, it's good to see you here. Please stay.

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #180 on: April 28, 2014, 10:00:28 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_CatDairy farming[edit]

A possible origin of the phrase "Grinning like a Cheshire Cat" is one favoured by the people of Cheshire, which boasts numerous dairy farms; hence the cats grin because of the abundance of milk and cream.







                              








 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #181 on: April 28, 2014, 11:21:51 PM »
Just had to share this article since it made me laugh.  The Cheshire cat pretty much tells Alice what I have been thinking all along .........

The Cheshire Cat

Character Analysis
Character in: Wonderland

The Cheshire Cat is famous for its ability to appear and disappear at will and for its enormous grin. In fact, sometimes the entire Cat disappears, leaving only the grin behind. The most important thing the Cat does is tell Alice that everyone in Wonderland is crazy – even her. Alice has trouble accepting this at first, but the reader has been expecting it for some time. Alice is impressed by the cat's shoot-from-the-hip (or in this case, from the grin!) honesty. Throughout the rest of her adventure in Wonderland, Alice will look anxiously around her for the Cheshire Cat, hoping for more advice or at least intelligent conversation. And, of course, we already know that Alice is partial to cats, since she's always talking about her favorite pet, Dinah.

The name "Cheshire Cat" is a contemporary Victorian joke that most modern readers miss. "Grin like a Cheshire Cat" was a saying at the time, although nobody really knows where it came from. One theory is about the famous cheeses in the town of Cheshire, which, the story goes, were made in the shape of cat faces to amuse buyers. The Cheshire Cat is like one of these come to life. This also explains why the Cat's body will disappear, leaving only its head behind – the cheeses were shaped like the face, not the entire cat. Perhaps the appearance of the grin without the rest of the cat is a joke about eating part of the "face" of cheese and leaving the rest.


http://www.shmoop.com/alice-in-wonderland-looking-glass/cheshire-cat.html

Have to admit, that cat is purrrrrty catty!!!     :D  :D  :D

Ciao for now~

p.s.  So excited I finally figured out how to post the pics.  Jonathan, you were right, "Perhaps the pic can't get past the censor. LOL."  Stick around I just may need your help with the Mad Hatter!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #182 on: April 28, 2014, 11:27:03 PM »
Thanks for that information and the illustrations, Bellamarie. I love the Cheshire cat and his disappearing body.

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #183 on: April 29, 2014, 07:26:21 AM »
Quote
"The name "Cheshire Cat" is a contemporary Victorian joke that most modern readers miss. "Grin like a Cheshire Cat" was a saying at the time, although nobody really knows where it came from..."
Thanks for the information on the Cheshire cat, Bella - I really didn't think that  Carroll had created him from his imagination - now can see that the children would have recognized the familiar expression and a grinning cat as Mr. Dodgson weaves his tale around him.

Hmmm...I hadn't thought of Alice as mad - had you?  Chessie does, says she must be mad or she wouldn't be here.  I thought of her as a little girl, caught up in a nightmare, or a nonsensical dream. Maybe that's what it is to be mad...

Do you remember reading that Dodgson was interested in mental disorders?





PatH

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #184 on: April 29, 2014, 08:11:46 AM »
JoanP, I don't think of Alice as mad either.  You can't recognize craziness without a sane person as contrast.

Sad to say, the mad hatter was probably a stock figure then.

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #185 on: April 29, 2014, 08:16:11 AM »
Well, good.  That's two of us.  I don't  want to think of poor Alice as mad.


Next up - the Mad Hatter character, which at first I thought was based on another well- known expression - "mad as as hatter" - referring to the Mad Hatter disease.

Quote
"Mad hatter disease, or mad hatter syndrome, is a commonly used name for occupational chronic mercury poisoning among hatmakers whose felting work involved prolonged exposure to mercury vapours. The neurotoxic effects included tremor and the pathological shyness and irritability characteristic of erethism"

I've a footnote here that indicates that Carroll's Mad Hatter was not based on someone suffering from a mad hatter disease, but that Tenniel's drawing of the Hatter resembled a furniture maker, Theophilus Carter, who was known in this area as the Mad Hatter - "because he wore a top hat and because of his eccentric ideas."

I loved the nonsensical tea party conversation!  Alice comes across as the sane logical person in contrast, Pat.
 I bet  Jonathan will come up with an answer to the Mad Hatter's raven / writing desk riddle.  (I need to think about it! :D)

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #186 on: April 29, 2014, 08:13:05 PM »
I found myself laughing out loud in the chapter "A Mad Tea-Party", this especially cracked me up:

The table was a large one, but the three were all crowded together at one corner of it.  "No room! No room!" they cried out when they saw Alice coming.  "There's plenty of room!"  said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table.  "Have some wine," the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.  Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea.  "I don't see any wine,"  she remarked.  "There isn't any," said the March Hare.  "Then it wasn't very civil of you to offer it," said Alice angrily.  "It wasn't very civil of of you to sit down without being invited," said the March Hare.  "I didn't know it was your table,"  said Alice:  "it's laid for a great many more than three."  "Your hair wants cutting," said the Hatter.  He had been looking at Alice for some time with great curiosity, and this was his first speech.  "You should learn not to make personal remarks,"  Alice said with some severity:  "it's very rude."  The Hatter opened his eyes very wide on hearing this:  but all he said was  "Why is a raven like a writing-desk?"

Then the whole double talk begins ....hilarious!  Alice was pretty outspoken with the Mad Hatter and the March Hare.  She really does look angry in this pic.



Alice gets frustrated with all the reverse logic, she tries desperately to make them see logic, but in Wonderland there is none!  Then comes the whole confusing conversation about time.  Again, no logic in Wonderland, time is the same always, 6:00 tea time.  

 
Alice says, "I think you might do something better with time . . . than wasting it in asking riddles that have no answers." To this, the Hatter replies: "If you knew Time as well as I do . . . you wouldn't talk about wasting it. It's him."

Time is thus suddenly personified and becomes the source of much punning and comic relief. Alice participates in this nonsense in all seriousness, saying that she has to "beat time" when she learns music, even though she has "perhaps" never spoken to "him."

"Ah! That accounts for it," says the Mad Hatter. "He won't stand beating!"

Oh my this is so funny, poor Alice just can't seem to get anywhere, and she so badly wanted to keep this entire tea party within her above the world table etiquette and proper, polite conversation.  Did you notice Alice never did get any tea or food.   ::)  ::)

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #187 on: April 30, 2014, 08:58:39 AM »
1. Why would madness be characteristic of hatters?

I found this link, which is also the annotations in my book........

 http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1897/what-caused-the-mad-hatter-to-go-mad

The most famous Mad Hatter, of course, is the one from the Mad Tea Party in Alice in Wonderland, the partner of the March Hare. Both mad, of course. But Lewis Carroll did not invent the phrase, although he did create the character. The phrases "mad as a hatter" and "mad as a March hare" were common at the time Lewis Carroll wrote (1865 was the first publication date of Alice). The phrase had been in common use in 1837, almost 30 years earlier. Carroll frequently used common expressions, songs, nursery rhymes, etc., as the basis for characters in his stories.

The origin of the phrase, it's believed, is that hatters really did go mad. The chemicals used in hat-making included mercurious nitrate, used in curing felt. Prolonged exposure to the mercury vapors caused mercury poisoning. Victims developed severe and uncontrollable muscular tremors and twitching limbs, called "hatter's shakes"; other symptoms included distorted vision and confused speech. Advanced cases developed hallucinations and other psychotic symptoms.

'Twas the hatters, not the wearers of hats. The hatters were exposed to the mercury fumes, which would have been long dissipated (or of insignificant strength) by the time the hat was worn. This use of mercury is now subject to severe legal restrictions (if not banned) in the U.S. and Europe.

While this is the most widely accepted origin of the phrase, there are those who believe that the phrase was originally "mad as an adder" (meaning poisonous as the snake) which degenerated to hatter. Sounds pretty flimsy to me, but then etymology is not an empirical science.

OK, having answered the question, I can't help but add some trivia.

There have been many guesses about whether Carroll was satirizing any particular individual with his Mad Hatter, or whether Tenniel (the first and most famous illustrator of Alice) was caricaturing anyone. Speculation ranges from Theophilus Carter, a furniture dealer near Oxford (most likely) to Prime Minister Gladstone (highly implausible).

Dropping the H, "Mad Adder" could imply a mathematician, such as Carroll himself.  But then we start to move into realms of, well, madness.

As long as we're off the subject, the expression "mad as a March hare" refers to the frenzied capers of the male hare during March, its mating season. Evan Morris of The Word Detective says, "Of course, the hare's behavior probably only appears strange to us--we can only guess how our human courtship rituals might appear to a rabbit. In any case, March Hares can't be entirely bonkers because, after all, every summer brings a new crop of baby hares."

Martin Gardner, author of the wonderful Annotated Alice, reports that two British scientists (Anthony Holley and Paul Greenwood, in Nature, June 7, 1984) made extensive observations of the behaviors of hares in the spring, and found no evidence that male hares go into a frenzy during the March rutting season. They concluded that the main courtship behavior of male hares during the entire breeding period (many months) is chasing females and then boxing with them. Behavior in March is no different from any other month.

Of course, this would not be the first time that popular beliefs and scientific observation don't jibe, nor where popular beliefs have lead to common expressions that are not scientifically verifiable.

Apparently Erasmus (1466?-1536), the Dutch Renaissance scholar and theologian, wrote the expression "mad as marsh hare," and there is now some speculation that this got corrupted to "March" in later decades. However, long before Carroll was writing, the expression was "mad as a March Hare," regardless of scientific validity.

Also worth noting that the Tenniel illustrations of the March Hare show wisps of straw in his hair. It was a Victorian symbol, both in art and on the stage, of madness.

The Hatter and the Hare reappear in Alice Through the Looking Glass as the King's messengers, Hatta and Haigha.

7. The hare and the hatter are supposed to be mad.  Do they seem any crazier than anyone else?

According to this exchange, I think it's clear to say, everyone in Wonderland is mad!

"In that direction," the Cat said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Hatter: and in that direction," waving the other paw, "lives a March Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."

"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.

"Oh, you ca'n't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."

"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.

"You must be, said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."


Again the question of some type of chemicals are being referred to causing hallucinations and psychotic symptoms.  I am almost convinced Carroll was mad as a hatter!!

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #188 on: April 30, 2014, 09:33:22 AM »
Wow, lots of good detail here, Bellamarie, thanks.  The more closely we look at the story, the more we see that most of the details are far from random.

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #189 on: April 30, 2014, 11:25:02 AM »
The language and logic play in this chapter is really quite interesting. Since Carroll was a logic teacher it seems that  he's commenting on the limited uses of logic and the imprecise nature of language in the "actual" world as well as the strange uses in Wonderland.

The Hare speaks up to ask Alice if she'd like more tea. Irritated, Alice replies "'I've had nothing yet...so I can't take more.' To this the Hatter says, 'you mean you can't take less...it's very easy to take more than nothing.'"

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #190 on: April 30, 2014, 11:33:33 AM »
Oh that is such an important point, Marcie! The "imprecise nature" of language, can make anyone mad when attempting to apply logic.  Certainly an enjoyable interlude in the garden - clearly something Alice and her sisters must have appreciated, especially hearing this from their logic teacher.

PatH

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #191 on: April 30, 2014, 11:38:50 AM »
Indeed, logic puzzles were one of Carroll's specialties.  I can see him smiling as he puts in these little conundrums.

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #192 on: April 30, 2014, 11:53:48 AM »
Were you able to identify the three little sisters in the Dormouse's story, who lived in the bottom of a well?  It was obvious the three girls were Liddells, but I had to check the annotations for the meaning of their names -
With the possible exception of Lucie, I doubt anyone reading the story even in Alice's day would have understood the work Carroll put into the story.  Was he attempting to hide their identities when deciding to publish the story?

Elsie- L.C - Lorina Charlotte
Tillie- Edith's family nickname - Matilda
Lucie - an anagram of Alice

They lived on treacle?

PatH

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #193 on: April 30, 2014, 12:02:01 PM »
There's a lot of wordplay about treacle here.  Who can figure it out?  (Treacle is molasses--wouldn't ever be my choice for a diet.)

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #194 on: April 30, 2014, 12:23:16 PM »
PatH.,   Nothing about Carroll making this story up was random....he used his intelligence as a mathematician in all his riddles.  

Marcie, Indeed Carroll is
Quote
using limited uses of logic and the imprecise nature of language in the "actual" world as well as the strange uses in Wonderland. "
 This is what is frustrating Alice so much!  Can you imagine how the Liddell girls felt listening to this story.  

To give us more insight into the mathematician's mind enjoy this article I found.  Nothing is random, by chance or make believe in this story, except for the characters (who obviously are caricatures of people he knew) even though it is full of nonsense to the average person, it made complete sense to Carroll's brilliant mind.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427391.600-alices-adventures-in-algebra-wonderland-solved.html?page=3#.U2EgovldWPN

Dodgson took his mathematics to his fiction. Using a technique familiar from Euclid's proofs, reductio ad absurdum, he picked apart the "semi-logic" of the new abstract mathematics, mocking its weakness by taking these premises to their logical conclusions, with mad results. The outcome is Alice's Adventures in Wonderland.

The parallels between Hamilton's maths and the Hatter's tea party - or perhaps it should read "t-party" - are uncanny. Alice is now at a table with three strange characters: the Hatter, the March Hare and the Dormouse. The character Time, who has fallen out with the Hatter, is absent, and out of pique he won't let the Hatter move the clocks past six.

Reading this scene with Hamilton's maths in mind, the members of the Hatter's tea party represent three terms of a quaternion, in which the all-important fourth term, time, is missing. Without Time, we are told, the characters are stuck at the tea table, constantly moving round to find clean cups and saucers.

Their movement around the table is reminiscent of Hamilton's early attempts to calculate motion, which was limited to rotatations in a plane before he added time to the mix. Even when Alice joins the party, she can't stop the Hatter, the Hare and the Dormouse shuffling round the table, because she's not an extra-spatial unit like Time.

The Hatter's nonsensical riddle in this scene - "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - may more specifically target the theory of pure time. In the realm of pure time, Hamilton claimed, cause and effect are no longer linked, and the madness of the Hatter's unanswerable question may reflect this.

Alice's ensuing attempt to solve the riddle pokes fun at another aspect of quaternions: their multiplication is non-commutative, meaning that x × y is not the same as y × x. Alice's answers are equally non-commutative. When the Hare tells her to "say what she means", she replies that she does, "at least I mean what I say - that's the same thing". "Not the same thing a bit!" says the Hatter. "Why, you might just as well say that 'I see what I eat' is the same thing as 'I eat what I see'!"

It's an idea that must have grated on a conservative mathematician like Dodgson, since non-commutative algebras contradicted the basic laws of arithmetic and opened up a strange new world of mathematics, even more abstract than that of the symbolic algebraists.

When the scene ends, the Hatter and the Hare are trying to put the Dormouse into the teapot. This could be their route to freedom. If they could only lose him, they could exist independently, as a complex number with two terms. Still mad, according to Dodgson, but free from an endless rotation around the table.
_______________________________________

So did they successfully stuff the Dormouse into the teapot?   I think NOT!  So is this to signify the nonsense continues?  I think so!

Ciao for now~



“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #195 on: April 30, 2014, 05:00:35 PM »
 2. What is a dormouse?

The dormouse is a small mouse-like rodent predominantly found in Europe. There are 29 different species of dormouse found today, which are most well-known for their long periods of hibernation throughout the cooler winter months.

Once emerged from hibernation in late spring, dormice begin to breed.

This would explain why the dormouse would be present in the month of March which is when the story is taking place, since we have the March Hare as well.  He is a really cute little animal.




It seems the dormouse plays at least some importance according to the article in my last post, of mathematics of logic:

When the scene ends, the Hatter and the Hare are trying to put the Dormouse into the teapot. This could be their route to freedom. If they could only lose him, they could exist independently, as a complex number with two terms. Still mad, according to Dodgson, but free from an endless rotation around the table

.










“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #196 on: April 30, 2014, 05:29:56 PM »
According to my notes, doormice were sometimes kept in teapots as pets.  That picture is indeed cute, but if they wake up from hibernation and immediately start breeding, sounds like a pet with problems.

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #197 on: April 30, 2014, 05:54:00 PM »
The question keeps coming up about the raven/writing desk riddle.  I stopped thinking about it it because I was convinced that Carroll had no answer.  But I had fun reading this article...-
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1173/why-is-a-raven-like-a-writing-desk

"Lewis Carroll himself got bugged about this so much that he was moved to write the following in the preface to the 1896 edition of his book:

Enquiries have been so often addressed to me, as to whether any answer to the Hatter's Riddle can be imagined, that I may as well put on record here what seems to me to be a fairly appropriate answer, viz: 'Because it can produce a few notes, tho they are very flat; and it is never put with the wrong end in front!' This, however, is merely an afterthought; the Riddle, as originally invented, had no answer at all.

Did this discourage people? No...some of the more notable of which are recorded in Martin Gardner's The Annotated Alice and More Annotated Alice:

Because the notes for which they are noted are not noted for being musical notes. (Puzzle maven Sam Loyd, 1914)
Because Poe wrote on both. (Loyd again)
Because there is a B in both and an N in neither. (Get it? Aldous Huxley, 1928)
Because it slopes with a flap. (Cyril Pearson, undated)
Not bad for amateurs. But the real answer, to which the careers of Poe and Carroll bear ample testimony, is that you can baffle the billions with both.

A comment concerning Lewis Carroll's infamous "Why is a raven like a writing desk?" riddle.
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The best answer I ever heard — and remember that feather pens were a common writing tool of the day, and that writing desks had inkwells — was, "Because they both come with inky quills."

Back in the 1930s, when I first picked up my mother's dog-eared copy of the works of Lewis Carroll, I asked her why a raven was like a writing desk. She answered with a straight face, "Because you cannot ride either one of them like a bicycle." Since this was true, and it was just as true as saying, "Because neither one of them is made from aluminum," I always thought Mom was right."

JoanP

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #198 on: April 30, 2014, 06:52:19 PM »
I think I liked the sleepy little dormouse better than the other guests at the tea party.  He wasn't judgemental  as the other two. He was just tryng to tell that story of the little girls in the treacle well, but was never able to get it out.  A note says there was actually a molasses well...that the molasses had medicinal properties... That the three little girls may have had an illness.  I wonder what Carroll had in mind with this beginning of a story.  I wonder too, if he'll return to it again...

Pat - your explanation of keeping dormice as pets in a teapot is as good an explanation as any of why they were trying to put him in the pot...

marcie

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Re: Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll
« Reply #199 on: April 30, 2014, 09:46:16 PM »
Bellamarie, I appreciate your sharing that article with us from the New Scientist. I don't understand the math but am able to get a sort of intuitive gist of the argument. It's fascinating, whether or not Carroll actually had all that in mind.

I love the photo of the dormouse. His looks don't seem to fit his sleepy personality in the story but I guess dormice aren't used to being awake during the day. I love the idea of children keeping a little mouse in an old teapot.

Joan, that's hilarious:

Back in the 1930s, when I first picked up my mother's dog-eared copy of the works of Lewis Carroll, I asked her why a raven was like a writing desk. She answered with a straight face, "Because you cannot ride either one of them like a bicycle." Since this was true, and it was just as true as saying, "Because neither one of them is made from aluminum," I always thought Mom was right."

What a great mom.