Author Topic: Fairy Tales & Their Tellers~From the Beast to the Blonde~August Book Club Online  (Read 84878 times)

ursamajor

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The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

 
On Fairytales & Their Tellers ~  August  Book Club Online
 
 Source Book:
* From the Beast to the Blonde by Marina Warner  


        Marina Warner's  From the Beast to the Blonde ... is a fascinating and  comprehensive study of the changing  cultural context of fairy tales and the people who tell them.  The first storytellers were women, grannies and nursemaids - until men like Charles Perrault, the Brothers Grimm, and Hans Christian Andersen started writing down and rewriting the women's stories.  Warner's interpretations show us how the real-life themes in these famous stories evolved: rivalry and hatred between women ("Cinderella" and "The Sleeping Beauty") and the ways of men and marriage ("Bluebeard.")

Warner's book is huge.  We will regard it as a source to help interpret the stories  and plan to concentrate on the second half of Warner's book, in which she provides a sampling of the tales and demonstrates adult themes, such as the rivalry and hatred among women - and the association of blondness in the heroine with desirability and preciousness.

If you are unable to get your hands on this book, not to worry.   The fairy tales themselves are readily accessible and those fortunate enough to locate   Warner's book can share the commentary with the rest of us.

For Your Consideration - Week 2  ~August 8-15

1.  Have you wondered how female writers treated the tales they heard from nurses and servants?  Would they stick to the oral tales as they were told?  Would they cast LRRH in a better light than their male counterparts?

2.  Were the oral story tellers primarily men or women?  Were those who collected the tales and wrote them down predominately men or women?  What might this information tell you about the tales as they are written?  (See Warner's book for more.)

3.  "Spin a yarn" ~ "weave a plot"   How do these phrases relate to fairy tales?  (See Warner's book.)

4.  Do you agree with Warner's description of a fairytale - "a moralizing from deep inside."

5.  Are you ready for a new fairytale?  How do Perrault's Cinderella and the Brothers Grimm's  1812 version of Cinderella differ?  How do both of them compare to the earlier  version- Cinder Maid ?
Don't miss the Grimms' 1857 version of Cinderella!

6.  Have you found any information on the silent fathers, the absent mothers and the presence of stepmothers in these fairy tales?  
Related Links:
Andrew Lang's Colour Fairy Books; Sur La Lune Annotated Fairy Tales ; A Roundtable Discussion: "How Fairy Tales Cast Their Spell"   ; Little Red Riding Hood   (Charles Perrault - 1697); Little Red Riding Hood   (Brothers Grimm - 1812); Little Red Cap (Brothers Grimm - second version see end )


 
Discussion Leader:  JoanP with JoanR, Guest DL



Ursamajor:  The psychologists do love Little Red.  See the link for a totally different Freudian interpretation by Eric Berne and others.  Berne had a theory that one chooses a fairy tale and models one's life on it.

http://hubpages.com/hub/So-Whats-The-History-Behind-The-Little-Red-Riding-Hood

dean69

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JOAN P:  Don't know much about  Charles Dickens' life, but if "Little Red Riding Hood" was his first love and if marriage to her would have been perfect bliss maybe his real marriage (if he was married) wasn't "perfect bliss."  We never forget our first love although it may not be as perfect in retrospect as we imagine.

This discussion is most opportune for me.  I am preparing a series of biography lectures to be presented early next year.  The first one will be L. Frank Baum author of “The Wizard of Oz” which is considered the first American Fairy Tale.  I’m getting a lot of help from this discussion.

JoanR

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I just finished reading the link to "The Story of Grandmother" and my eyes are just recovering from the red background!!
  That forerunner to our familiar tale of "Little Red Riding Hood" is echoed in the ones to the Italian "Caterinella" In that tale cannibalistic urges drive only the villain, not the heroine. In the oral tale pre-Perrault, RRH seems to enjoy the taste of flesh and blood while Caterinella is frequently invited to eat her grandmother's teeth and ears (!!!) but refuses.

from "Enchanted Hunters" by Tatar:
  Luciano Pavoratti described his experience with “Little Red Riding Hood”…the tale enabled him to face up to and banish childhood anxieties.  “In my house,” he recalls, “it was my grandfather  who told the stories.. My favorite one was “Little Red Riding Hood”.  I identified with her.  I had the same fears as she. I didn’t want her to die. “  P. experienced the  story of the girl’s death and resurrection in a safe setting, one that enabled dread to  turn into comfort and enchantment.”

Maria Tatar goes on to say, “her story, simple as it is,  takes on and  enacts the  great mysteries  about villainy, violence, birth and mortality, revealing the true uses of enchantment.”

There is So much out there on Little Red Riding Hood!

JudeS

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Joan P:
In answer to your question re "REFRIGERATOR MOTHERS" I will try to give you a sliver of an answer.  If you have further questions on the matter I will answer them as well.

In his book "The Empty Fortress" Bettelheim put forth the theory that Autism arose in cases where Mother's withheld affection from their children and failed to connect with them since these mothers didn't want their children to exist. The Fathers in these cases were weak and ineffectual.

REFRIGERATOR MOTHERS were women who caused Autism in their children because of their own emotional frigidity.

Today we know that there is a neurological base for this disorder.  However Bettelheim's theory caused immeasurable stress and despair in families with Autistic children around the world.


JoanP

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JoanR -  I'm so sorry about the red background - I hope noone else gave up for the same reason.  This is the oral tale on which Perrault based the first known written tale -
 I'm going to paste here to make it easier to read.  then we can talk about Bettelheim and Freud...

The Story of Grandmother

There was a woman who had made some bread. She said
to her daughter:
"Go carry this hot loaf and bottle of milk to your granny."
So the little girl departed. At the crossway she met bzou,
the werewolf, who said to her:
"Where are you going?"
"I'm taking this hot loaf and bottle of milk to my granny."
"What path are you taking." said the werewolf, "the path
of needles or the path of pins?"
"The path of needles," the little girl said.
"All right, then I'll take the path of pins."
The little girl entertained herself by gathering needles.
Meanwhile the werewolf arrived at the grandmother's house,
killed her, and put some of her meat in the cupboard and a bottle of her blood on the shelf. The little girl arrived and knocked at the door.
"Push the door," said the werewolf, "It's barred by a piece of wet straw."
"Good day, granny. I've brought you a hot loaf of bread and a bottle of milk."
"Put it in the cupboard, my child. Take some of the meat
which is inside and the bottle of wine on the shelf."
After she had eaten, there was a little cat which said:
"Phooey!... A slut is she who eats the flesh and drinks the
blood of her granny."
"Undress yourself, my child," the werewolf said, "And come
lie down beside me."
"Where should I put my apron?"
"Throw it into the fire, my child, you won't be needing it
any more."
And each time she asked where she should put all her other
Clothes, the bodice, the dress, the petticoat, the long stockings,
the wolf responded:
"Throw them into the fire, my child, you won't be needing
them anymore."
When she laid herself down in the bed, the little girl said:
"Oh granny, how hairy you are!"
"The better to keep myself warm, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big nails you have!"
"The better to scratch me with, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big shoulders you have!"
"The better to carry the firewood, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big ears you have!"
"The better to hear you with, my child!"
"Oh granny, what big nostrils you have!"
"The better to snuff my tobacco with, my child!"
"Oh granny, what a big mouth you have!"
"The better to eat you with, my child!"
"Oh granny, I have to go badly. Let me go outside."
"Do it in the bed, my child!"
"Oh no, granny, I want to go outside."
"All right, but make it quick."
The werewolf attached a woolen rope to her foot and let her
go outside.
When the little girl was outside, she tied the end of the rope
to a plum tree in the courtyard. The werewolf became impatient and said: "Are you making a load out there? Are you making a load?"
When he realized that nobody was answering him, he jumped out of bed and saw that the little girl had escaped. He followed her but arrived at her house just at the moment she entered


JoanP

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Thank you, Jude.  Autism is still such a mystery, though more is known than back in Bettelheim's day.  We have friends with a little boy who has this - a boy who is 11 now.  His parents took him everywhere for help, dad gave up his job to stay home to homeschool.  The marriage couldn't stand the stress. ...There is still so much that is unknown.

Look here - I found this 3 minute film on Bettelheim on Autism on the Dick Cavett show years ago - Hearing about Bettelheim's experience in Dachau, you can almost understand where he was coming from...




JoanP

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Dean69, that's quite an interesting topic - the Wizard of Oz, the first American Fairytale.  I'd like to hear more about this - and your definition of "fairy tale" - are you getting into background information for Baum's story?

You asked  about Charles Dickens' marriage...which brought back quite a few memories of our last discussions of one of Dickens' books -
The Mystery of Edwin Drood (1870).  Some of you will remember the discussion of his marriage to Catherine Hogarth, mother of his 10 children.  Her young sister died in Charles' arms - he never got over her.  Later he was unfaithful to his wife with young actresses.  He had a thing about younger women - I can see where he would have been 'blissfully happy' with Little Red Riding Hood as his wife...

When we talk about Bettelheim's Freudian interpretation of the tale, are we talking about his Oedipal interpretations...Little Red's repressed desire for her father?  Or is there more?  Was he the only one who regards the wolf this way?  Did you see that before Bettelheim suggested it?  If you have Bettelheim's book  will you see what he has to say about this?

I just read the article that Ursa posted this morning -

Quote
"Freud was the father of the psychoanalytic school of thought which believes that all human behaviour is motivated by sexuality. As such, fairy tales become vehicles for teaching new members of society sexual lessons."

The tale has so many sexual markers and overtones … it has been recognized as a sexual tale for so many centuries-
http://hubpages.com/hub/So-Whats-The-History-Behind-The-Little-Red-Riding-Hood

So that seems to say that Bettelheim - or Freud for that matter, were not alone in seeing the sexual connotations in Little Red Riding Hood...

marcie

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I'm glad you are in the discussion, dean69. For what kind of program are you presenting the biography lectures? I'd love to learn more about L. Frank Baum. I loved the Wizard of Oz as a child.

JoanP and all, I read "The Story of Grandmother" last night and don't know that I've read it before. If I did, I've forgotten. At first I thought the taking off of each piece of clothing was toward titallation but thinking it over, I'm not sure that young children would see it that way. Children may experience it more as a step-by-step device to build suspense and prolong the time until the big bad wolf does something to Little Riding Hood (which they must sense is going to happen). It may be similar to your knowing that the hero/heroine in the horror movie should not go up the steps, go down the hallway, open each door and look in the closet. I'm not sure. Maybe children today are more attuned to sexually seductive nuances.

Maria Tatar provides an introduction and annotates each fairy tale in a beautiful big book, The Annotated Classic Fairy Tales, which contains many interesting illustrations.

Little Red Riding Hood is the first story in the book. It's the Grimm version. Tatar also includes two other versions in the appendix. One version is "The Story of Grandmother" (as told by Louis and Francois Briffault in Nievre, 1885). The story is the same as the one you linked to, Joan, with minor differences in translation of some words, for example, instead of saying "Are you making a load out there?" He says, "Are you making cables out there?" (not sure what that means). The other version in the Appendix is Charles Perrault's version with the moral at the end.



JudeS

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Answer to Question 1: Why do you  think BB found it more rewarding to tell Fairy Tales than other types of stories in helping severely disturbed children?

Tell Fairy Tales to severley disturbed children?  Hmm, having worked with that population for over 35 years (with a high rate of success) the whole point of the therapy was to help the child create stories, drawings or collages of his\her inner turmoil i.e. give it a form that could be shared with a helpful adult.
   
Fairy Tales are wonderful for normal children and sometimes even for adults.  Children who have been raped, beaten,starved or abandoned physically or emotionally have seen enough of horror. The last thing they need is to hear some of those horrific versions of LRRH.

You asked why BB thought it was a good idea.  In my very jaded opinion of this man it was a way of not digging into the
terrible reality the child harbored within himself since that takes being quiet and listening to nuances. BB was bombastic and broached no disagreement to his ideas.  He probably thought that by telling these tales that deal with the reality of fictional children with positive outcomes he was hitting some streams in the disturbed childs unconcious that eventually would be helpful.


roshanarose

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I read the Brothers Grimm version to my youngest grandson last night.  After he had heard the story he made two interesting statements/questions.

To me:

Grandma Caro?

Me:  Yes.  Harry.

I don't think that story is true.  Because it says the wolf eats the granny and the little girl.

Me:  And?

Well, if the wolf ate them they would be in pieces inside his belly.  So.  They would be dead.

Me:  Yes.  Harry.  You are right.

The other observation:

Harry:  I know why the little girl's hat was red.

Me:  Why is that?

Harry:  Because it was covered in blood in the wolf's belly.

Me:  You may be right, Harry.

Harry is nine.  I thought that it was a very modern take on a fairy tale.  Computers games and TV programs also show lots of blood.

.
How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

roshanarose

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If you have a somewhat warped sense of humour (like mine) you may enjoy reading the politically correct version of LRRH from about.com.  Here are the first couple of lines.

"There once was a young person named Little Red Riding Hood who lived on the edge of a large forest full of endangered owls and rare plants that would probably provide a cure for cancer if only someone took the time to study them.

Red Riding Hood lived with a nurture giver whom she sometimes referred to as "mother", although she didn't mean to imply by this term that she would have thought less of the person if a close biological link did not in fact exist.

Nor did she intend to denigrate the equal value of nontraditional households, although she was sorry if this was the impression conveyed. "

It goes on....

www.politicalhumor.about.com and do a search for LRRH.

How can you prove whether at this moment we are sleeping, and all our thoughts are a dream; or whether we are awake, and talking to one another in the waking state?  - Plato

ivmfox

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  When I was a child, I read Little Red Riding Hood, but it was never a favorite. The Ursa posting, the interpretation of Eric Berne was an eye opener!  It made me feel a bit sad there was all "that" going on, when all I understood  was a tale about a little girl going to visit her grandmother..... Children live in their own world and are often surprised to find out that things are not always as they seem.
1966 Sam the Sham and The Pharaohs recorded a song, "Little Red Riding Hood" ("you sure are looking good, you're everything a big bad wolf could want.."). It's on You Tube, and one version features an old, black and white cartoon version from 1931 which seems very fitting.

JoanP

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But ivmfox - you heard more than a sweet story of a little girl stopping to pick flowers on her way to Grandma's house, didn't you?  You read abut the wolf in the woods, with big teeth - and how he swallowed grandma...and the little girl too. There was a lot of stuff going on -  Didn't that bother you?  Or were you quite philosophical about  the story - like roshanarose's young grandson?  He knew the story couldn't be real, but do you think he took away a moral, a message from the tale?

THere is a similarity to those video games, don't you think?  Losts of blood that seems to disappear in the next cell or frame.  Just like Little Red Riding Hood and Grandma, emerging whole from the wolf's belly after being chewed up and swallowed by the wolf.

It's funny how allusions to fairy tales, and the tale of Little Red Riding Hood pop up during a discussion - is this the 1931 version you referred to?

Dizzy Red Riding Hood  

Jude, we need to talk some more about Bettelheim and  his belief in the importance of reading fairy tales to disturbed and abused children.  I have great respect for your estimation of the man.  To be fair, I think he was talking about reading the Grimm Bros. version - rather than  those horrific versions of LRRH -

Today, let's consider  his thoughts about the benefits of reading the tales to disturbed children - and  particularly his interpretations on the different aspects of Little Red Riding Hood.    
Marcie finds every aspect of his views "over the top" too - so let's also look at Tatar and Warner's view too - how do their views differ from Bettelheim's?

Back in a few ...



marcie

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roshanarose, your grandson Harry's reaction is very interesting. I'm glad that you read him the story and posted about it. Harry's response made me think about children's distinguishing between "reality" and "fantasy." I'm not sure if those are the right constructs but I found some info about a related research project undertaken in 2004 at http://mixingmemory.blogspot.com/2004/12/fantasy-reality-distinction-in.html.

LOL, roshanarose. There is a set of Politically Correct Bedtime Stories. http://www.amazon.com/Politically-Correct-Gift-Set-Enlightened/dp/0028607260/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281203628&sr=1-3-spell

JoanP

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Marcie, that was an interesting link to the paper by Tanya Sharon and Jaqueline Woolley on the child's ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality.

Quote
"Piaget believed that children were not able to form a sharp distinction between fantasy and reality, and some research specifically on fantasy beliefs has borne this out. Three year olds, for instance, have trouble distinguishing between real and fantasy animals, when presented with drawings, and children are often confused by fantastical events that they find frightening. "


Do you think this means that three year olds are not ready for fairy tales?
Jude, do you believe that exposing disturbed children to fairy tales will confuse and frighten them?

Quote
"With experience , children acquire increasing knowledge about everything in their world—both about real entities and their properties, and about such socially supported myths as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Thus, there is the simultaneous development of beliefs considered correct (e .g. dinosaurs are real) and of beliefs considered incorrect but age-appropriate (e .g. Santa is real).

As children believe in the reality of fantasy figures, or are unable to say with certainty that they are pretend, they treat them very differently from real entities in terms of the properties and abilities they are willing to grant. In this way, children seem to place fantastical entities in a separate category—neither unquestionably real nor pretend, but somewhere in between."


I located the passages in Bettelheim's book in which he explains why he thinks fairy tales are valuable to a child's development...including disturbed children.  Will type them here now.

JoanP

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Bettelheim on Fairy Tales:

"In order to master the psychological problems of growing up - overcoming narcissistic disappointments, oedipal dilemmas, sibling rivalries, becoming able to relinquish childhood dependencies; gaining a feeling of selfhood and of self-worth, and a sense of moral obligation - a child needs to understand what is going on within his conscious self so that he can also cope with what is going on in his unconscious...

"In child or adult, the unconscious  is a powerful determinant of behaviour.  ..."The message that fairy tales get across to the child - that a struggle against severe difficulties in life is unavoidable, an intrinsic part of human existence.

Modern stories written for young children mainly avoid these issues.  "Safe stories mention neither death or aging; the limits of our existence nor the wish for eternal life.  The fairy tale by contrast, confronts the child squarely with the basic human predicaments."

When I was reading this, I was found myself nodding in agreement.  B. gives the example - that many fairy tales begin with the death of a mother or father.  I have noticed that mothers are "absent"  in many of these tales.  My own mother died when I was seven - and the fact was not lost on me as I was growing up.  We'll talk more of these absent mothers as we move along.

Do you think that Bettelheim is off the mark when he finds the fairy tale the most beneficial literature a child can read?-

He believes that primers are designed to teach the necessary skills of reading, irrespective of meaning.  He says "the bulk of "children's literature"  attempts to entertain or  to inform, or both, but that most of these books are so shallow in substance that little of significance can be learned from them.

Because his life is bewildering  to him, the child needs to be given the chance to understand himself in this complex world with which he must learn to cope.  He needs a moral education, which conveys to himthe advantages of moral behaviour, through that which is meaningful to him.

The child finds this kind of meaning through fairy tales."

Because you are both a psychologist AND a lover of Fairy Tales, Jude, I am very intrested to hear your thoughts on what Bettelheim has to say here.   What do the rest of you think?


JudeS

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Joan P:

The scariest story I ever told a slightly disturbed child was "Peter Rabbit".  The boy had reached  a point in his therapy where he could FEEL SORRY for Peter who was unable to control his behavior and suffered for that. Peter did something wrong andso his Mom punished him.  You could say his Ego was weaker than his Id  but that would certainly spoil the story.
 
Bettleheims theories relate nicely to normal children who can process evil in stories because their is none in their real lives. Through these Fairy Tales they learn that there are wicked people in the world and it will help them to recognize those people if and when they meet up with them. Normal children can also learn from these stories that bad things can happen to nice little girls and boys like themselves. It can help them to meet future trauma and know that they are not alone.

Children who have suffered evils on their own frail bodies and souls must learn to share that pain with those who can assuage their pain. These children, if they want a story it is something that will make them smile or perhaps laugh. Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse come to mind.

So normal kids plus fairy tales=YES!
Abused, disturbed and suffering children= NO!


JoanP

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Thanks, Jude.  I can understand what you are saying.  I guess I don't understand how Bettelheim reached the conclusion that the disturbed child could relate to fairy tales  without scaring him to death!

Bettelheim has a note in his book expressing surprise at Andrew Lang's selection of Perrault's version of Little Red Riding Hood for his Blue Fairy Book.  B. says he prefers Grimm's story because  Little Red Cap and the grandmother are reborn, and the wolf punished, not the little girl and her grandmother.    Bettelheim  says that Lang's choice indicates Lang's belief that it is better to scare children into good behavior than to relieve their anxieties as a true fairy tale does."
Bettelheim speaks at length of how Perrault has  destroyed the original tale in his attempt  to teach a specific moral.  He  says Perrault destroyed the tale by being so explicit, leaving nothing to the imagination.
Does  Bettelheim see the danger of scaring already disturbed children?  Jude indicates that disturbed children would be frightened hearing Grimm's tale as well.

He  writes that the  threat of being devoured is the central theme of LRRH and other tales -   I don't ever remember being affraid of being eaten. 
Marina Warner writes that the threat of animals was a real and frightening one in the 17th and 18th centuries; in times of scarcity and hard winters, bears and wolves came in from the wild to prey on towns and villages.

So the threat was very real at the time.

Somewhere I read that the thinking on Bettelheim's approach to fairy tales has changed...that they are back on children's bookshelves.  Have you seen anything about that?





JoanP

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Oh my, while searching for the modern thought on Fairytales, I came across this article...which comes close to describing what  Jude has been warning us about.  My question - is there enough of a reason for us to continue to read the man's book and his interpretations of the fairytales?

kidsal

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I thought we were going to discuss Beast to Blonde??

JoanP

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Yes, we are, Kidsal. The plan was to use both Bettelheim and Warner as resources.  Not sure what to do about Bettelheim now.  .  It will be interesting to discuss Warner's take on the Freudian aspects of Little Red Riding Hood.  The fact that her book is more current may make a difference and shed some light on how Bettelheim is regarded today.  I thought I read somewhere that his views were back in favor.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Please feel free to jump in at any time with what you have found in Warner's book.  We'd love to hear from you.

Have any of you wondered if the women who collected and wrote down Fairy Tales in the 17th century while Perrault was writing portrayed Little Red as naive or as seductive as far as the wolf was concerned?  After reading how Perrault prettified the source tale, it seems to me that he and others who "collected"  the tales had some lattitude when it came to putting the oral tale in writing.

dean69

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Joan P. & Marcie: The biography of L. Frank Baum that I'm teaching is for the Shepherd Center, a senior citizen group that meets once a week for classes, lunch and general social interaction.  Classes include, music (all types), history, religion, writing, painting, general health issues, literature, traveling, etc.  I will be presenting 9 biographies, one each week during the winter term starting with L. Frank Baum.  Classes run for 50 minutes.

Baum was a sickly child who avoided sports and other boisterous activates, but he loved to read.  However he thought the fairy tales of his youth were too scary and violent, so he would soften them when telling them to children.  He married Maud Gage, daughter of Matilda Joslyn Gage, who along with Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony was a prominent women’s suffrage activist.  It was Matilda who suggested that Frank write down some of stories he told children that eventually led to his writing “The Wonderful Wizard of Oz.”  Oz became an instant success.  A Broadway play of the story ran for several years and we know the success of the 1939 movie with Judy Garland which incidentally Frank who died in 1919 never saw..

I have been reading the Andrew Lang"s Fairy Tales found on the website at the top of the discussion page.  What a treat.  I wish I had known about some of them when my children were young.  I was struck by Bettleheim’s description of fairy tales as being optimistic and myths, pessimistic.  Is that really true?

JoanP

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Hello Dean69!  I was just thinking of you this morning - and the Wizard of Oz as the first American Fairy Tale.  IAn interesting biograpy on Frank Baum.  I'm interested in The Wizard of Oz...the background stories that led to his writing the tale.  Do you know if the story was his own, before he put it in writing, or if he drew from other oral tellings of the story?  

I thought of you as I was posting some new questions for consideration in the coming week -

In her book, Marina Warner described a fairy tale as - "a moralizing from deep inside."  Do you understand what she was saying?  I was thinking of that description as applied to Wizard of Oz.

I'm not sure that I see Myths as pessimistic...I remember reading on the difference between myths and fairy tales in Bettelheim's introduction.  He starts by saying that some fairy and folk stories evolved out of myths, others were incorporated into them.
"Myths and fairy tales have much in common.  But in myths, much more than in fairy stories, the culture hero is presented to the listener as a figure he ought to emulate in his own life, as far as possible.

A myth, like a fairy story may express inner conflict in symbolic form and suggest how it may be solved. ...Much as we mortals may strive to be like these heroes of myth, we will remain always and obviously  inferior to them."

Quote
"we will remain always and obviously  inferior to them"
 So will the child be left  feeling inferior to them?  I'd say in that sense, one might say myths  convey a rather pessimistic message to the child...what do you think?

ursamajor

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I agree with Kidsal.  Let's give Bettelheim a decent agnostic burial and move on to From the Beast to the Blonde.

straudetwo

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uestion 7
« Reply #144 on: August 08, 2010, 01:57:37 PM »
 JoanP,  wonderful things are known happen in our discussions, which is borne out by facts, and the truth.  The participants are keys in any discussion, and when they share their personal and/or especially their professional experience on any subject - and often in more than one subject!! - we're all the richer of it.  Many thanks for the well-informed exchanges weve had here.

In particular I'd like to applaud Jude for her posts about Bettelheim, autistic children, Freudian reverberations, etc specifically the last one I saw yesterday: Because it is  important  not only for the information  it provides, but could be viewed as the answer (unintended, of course) to  Question 7 : And I paraphrase, " Why was Bettelheim dismissive of Charles Perrault?

Like Kidsa, I had looked forward and prepared for the discussion of Marina Warner's Book, and that's what I'd like to explore to the extent possible.  


JoanP

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Ursa, Traudee, have you considered the new questions in the heading here today for the coming week?  Those are intended to send you exploring into  Warner's book - she has plenty to say on the tellers of the tales.

JudeS

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Joan P:
Thank you so much for putting on this site the article regarding Richard Pollacks book on Bettleheim in which he slams him into the ground and then buries him.  I read the book but didn't want to bring it up for fear that you all would see me as completely biased.

I am slowly wending my way  through Warner's book and would be happy to discuss what I have read so far.

JoanP

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I agree with the thoughts expressed here - those relating to Bruno Bettelheim especially - although I have a lingering question on Little Red and the Freudian aspects of the tale.

Ursamajor posted a most interesting site on the subject, I hope you get a chance to read it.  I've pulled out some of the points that led me to my question for you -

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The story, as do many others in folklore and myth, has a strong Oedipal leaning – it is an expression of Freud’s basic human desire to replace our parent of the same sex, in a relationship with our parent of the opposite sex – therefore, a young man’s desire to replace his father, and a young woman’s desire to replace her mother in relation to her father. We see much supporting evidence for a Freudian interpretation of Little Red Riding Hood within the tale – it is not all far-flung, tenuous links and coincidences.

Freud was the father of the psychoanalytic school of thought which believes that all human behaviour is motivated by sexuality. As such, fairy tales become vehicles for teaching new members of society sexual lessons. However, these must be oblique lessons: it goes against so many of our society’s values to overtly indoctrinate sexuality into our children. At the same time, sexuality is an important part of our adult lives, and as with other areas of life, it is the responsibility of parents and other adults to teach children how to relate to these social phenomena. However, there are several differing, sexual interpretations of the Little Red Riding Hood parable – exactly what message is being sent to those reading it for the first time cannot be agreed on!

The way the Little Red Riding Hood tale teaches children about the roles of their gender has also been researched extensively. The mother of the tale, who tells Red Riding Hood not to stray from the path, represents a woman who knows her place within the patriarchal society. The fact that Little Red Riding Hood strays from the path, talks to a strange man (‘Don’t talk to strangers!’), and dawdles, against her mother’s instructions, and comes to harm, is a lesson to young girls to accept what society dictates they must do, or come to harm. “This action, an expression of her own desire, is the cause of her troubles” (Cranny-Francis, 1992, p123).
http://hubpages.com/hub/So-Whats-The-History-Behind-The-Little-Red-Riding-Hood

 I have these questions for you -
 
*1. Do you think (or do you know for a fact)  that Bettelheim was not the only one who saw Red Riding Hood in this light - as a young woman who desired to replace her mother in relation to her father?  Does Warner comment on this Freudian view?  I've a reason for asking this as we move on to other tales.

*2. Do you think most fairy tales are based on this assumption - that every young girl or boy dreams of replacing her father or his mother in the parent's affection? Or is this just the view of ...Freudians?


JoanP

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Before we move on, I'd like to comment on how we had planned (and still do plan)  to use Marina Warner's book - as a source book to use as we consider some individual fairy tales.   Quite a few of those participating in this discussion were unable to get the book.  Be assured that you don't need it to discuss this book - this discussion is ABOUT the FAIRYTALES, not Warner's book.   We never planned to discuss this big book as we would in a regular book discussion.  

From the Beast to the Blonde is an excellent sourcebook - with a detailed index in the back of the book.  As we discuss certain tales, or different aspects of the tales, it is hoped that those fortunate to have the book in hand will check to see what Warner has to say about them, bring those thoughts here for all of us to consider in this discussion.

Little Red Riding Hood, Cinderella and Snow White seem to represent various aspects of the fairy tale whichWarner (and Bettelheim) discuss at length.  I thought we would discuss those three tales first -  and then, in the final week, leave it up to you all  to suggest other tales you would like to discuss as a group.  (Of course you can bring up any that you want in the course of the discussion.)

So this week, let's focus on Cinderella - the one most of us are familiar with - Grimm's, the earlier written version of Perrault's, and a much earlier oral form - Cinder  Maid.  There are links to these three tales in the heading -   (Scroll up to the top of this page to the first post for links and questions for your consideration.  Marina Warner has much to say about the early storytellers - and Cinderella.  If you have the book please share some of what you read on this!

JoanP

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Look, Bettelheim has been removed from the heading!  Let's talk Warner today.  Let's talk Cinderella!

Have you had a chance to read any of the versions of Cinderella?  I had decided to begin with the Grimms' version and move backwards to the earlier oral versions ...and made a startling discovery.  I thought the Grimms' version of 1812 would be the tale we familiar with - as their "Little Red Riding Hood"  was the one we grew up on - and read to our own children...  Have you had a chance to read  it?

Where's the Fairy godmother?  The pumpkin coach?  It is very interesting - and moving, but certainly NOT the Cinderella we knew.  Then I discovered that 45 years later they came out with another version of Cinderella.  Aha, I thought - this will be the Cinderella I know!


What do you think?  So when did the fairy godmother first make an appearance?   This is of personal interest to me...

I have an old story book of Cinderella, I've had it since I was five or six years old -It has  a 1943 copyright -  by John Sherman Bagg.  The book has the most glorious illustrations..  I'll scan the one of the fairy godmother later today.  Here's the first paragraph  in this book -

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"Once upon a time there lived a little girl who was very unhappy.  She was sad because her mother was dead.  She lived with a cruel stepmother and two stepsisters.  Her father lived with them too, but she hardly ever saw him."

My mother died when I was seven.  I read this book over and over until it nearly fell apart.  I'm holding it in my hands right now and wondering whether the old versions would have meant more to me than the fairy godmother did all those years ago.  I wonder when the protective mother and the hazel nut tree morphed into the fairy godmother.  I don't think I ever put it together - that the fairy godmother was the  mother's spirit.  Did you?
 




ursamajor

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I did not remember the  pigeons who helped with the onerous work Cinderella had to do in the 1857 version.  I don't remember any helpful critters until the Disney movie, in which a lot of Cinderella's work is done by mice and other small creatures who sing happily.  You would not expect the "Disney version" to hark back to the earlier work.  The story definitely suffers from the lack of the fairy godmother, who is obviously a loving maternal presense.  A tree is a poor substitute.

straudetwo

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Our book group is meeting at my house this afternoon and I'm rushed.  Will be on line in early evening.  I'll have my own first book of Grimm's Märchen on hand then.

The German title of Cinderella is Aschenputtel; (Asche = cinders)

Little Red Riding Hood is Rotkäppchen (compound noun. käppchen  is a small cap or hood,  rot, of course is red)..

More later

P.S. There's really no translation for "-puttel (Aschenputtel). It's a term used "for the least of them" as it were. Think of Ruby in Upstairs Downstairs.

 

JudeS

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Thanks for putting the Chinese Version of the story on line for us.  Finally the mystery (for me at least) of the importance of small feet to win the Prince has been solved. It has to do with the Chinese Fetish of regarding small feet as a thing of great beauty. Perhaps all ancient people worshipped small feet as this seems to be a sign of nobility of some sort.

As a child this was the least favorite in the fairy tale book I owned. As an adult the movie was also my least favorite of the Disney versions put on the screen.

It may be I had absolutely nothing to identify with in this story.  I didn't have any sisters, my own Mother was a kind person and I never dreamed of marrying a Prince. All the stories about LITTLE girls I adored especially Hansel and Gretel -my favorite heroine who saved herself and her brother from the evil witch by being clever and cunning.

Later on Gretel was replaced by Pippi Longstockings and later, Nancy Drew.  Thinking about Pippi brings to mind the Norse Fairy tales which are somewhat different but delightful in their own way.


JoanR

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I've just been to the library and have found an "Annotated Brothers Grimm" by Maria Tatar with an intro. by A.S.Byatt.  (How she does pop up!)  Byatt says of Tatar that "she is a true scholar who writes beautifully, not a theorist making use of the material for her own ends."  Now, could that be a slap at Bettleheim?

She has a criticism of Andersen as well - she says that Grimm's tales might be funny or horrible but they are never disturbing.  "They never twisted your spirit with sick terror as Andersen so easily did".  I would dispute that -  his tales could make one terribly sad but not terrified whereas some of the tales I remember from Grimm, such as "The Juniper Tree" disturbed me no end!

In Cinderella, the good mother (or the spirit of) is represented by the fairy godmother

The good mother/bad mother theme runs through the various versions of the Cinderella story.  Tatar says that in the splitting of the mother into 2 polar opposites, psychologists have seen a mechanism for helping a child work through the conflicts of maturing  and separating from parents.
 
 "The image of the good mother is preserved in all her nurturing glory even as feelings of resentment and helplessness are given expression thru the figure of the wicked, predatory stepmother."



JoanP

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Jude, I am still smiling at the idea that you disliked Cinderella because you couldn't identify with the story- but LOVED
Hansel and Gretel - from Andrew Lang's Blue Fairy Book.  What did you like about it?  Right off, we are told that it is the MOTHER who wants to get rid of her two little children and sends them into the forest, hoping they will get lost!  You must have liked the gingerbread house...with the sugar window panes!  Let's remember this mother when we talk about the absent mother in so many of these stories...


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The story (Grimms') definitely suffers from the lack of the fairy godmother, who is obviously a loving maternal presense.  A tree is a poor substitute.

But Ursa, that was Cinderella's story- until someone decided to change that tree and the helpful birds, into the fairy godmother.  (Disney gave us both - birds, mice AND the loving, matenal fairy godmother.  I had assumed that up until the tales were written down, they changed with the teller, but once writen down they really didn't change that much.  I guess I got that idea from what we saw with "Little Red Riding Hood"  - though the Grimm Bros.  did add to that story, didn't they?  

Marina Warner's book contains this illustration - from a Chapbook, London, 1820.  Look -     A fairy godmother!  In 1820!
Traudee, let us know what you find in your German version.  Do you remember reading about a fairy godmother in this story as a child?

Have any of you had a chance to read Perrault's Cinderella yet? (This is a link to the entire tale.)   I thought it was interesting that Perrault's version is the one Andrew Lang chose for his Blue Fairy Book.  He must have liked the godmother, the godmother who was a fairy.  Why did the Grimms disappear the fairy godmother...the pumpkin coach, etc.  These were the magical elements of Cinderella!


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"In Cinderella, the good mother (or the spirit of) is represented by the fairy godmother"
JoanR - great, we can substitute Tatar's annotations for Mr. BB's ;)

Two things stand out for me in each of these versions...maybe three.  Mother is absent from the story - except in spirit, looking over Cinderella from afar. If she's nurtureing, she's doing that from afar.  Father seems to have vanished from the scene right after the wedding.  He offers no protection, but he must be providing for the stepmother - who is described consistantly in all of these stories as being proud, haugthy and resentful at Cinderella's presence in her life.

Warner comments on each of these situations.  It's a big fat book...we welcome any comments you have noted!

JoanR

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Here's a link to Perrault's Cinderella illustrated by Gustav Dore - the fairy godmother does look  a bit witchy but I don't believe that all fairies were supposed to be beautiful!

http://www.angelfire.com/nb/classillus/images/perrault/cind.html

It does seem as if a fairy godmother enters the story pretty early as it seems to be in Perrault's text here.

JudeS

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Joan P:
In my version of Hansel and Gretel it was the stepmother who wanted to get rid of the children.  When they returned home at the end of the adventure the Stepmother was conveniently dead.   I just checked the story on Google and though there are various versions the one most accepted is the one with the Stepmother.

I promise to stick to the Cinderella story  for the rest of the week.

ursamajor

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Some time ago I read an analysis of fairy tales which said that the evil stepmother was a substitute for the evil mother.  We want to think of mothers as loving and protective, but know that this is by no means universal.  Children will be angry with even a good and loving mother some of the time.  The purpose of the evil stepmother figures was to give the reader/listener a place to dump negative emotions.  I have no link as I was this a long time ago.

How many ways a fairy tale can be interpreted!

JoanP

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Jude, I went back and read the Hansel and Gretel in  Lang's Blue Book  again - more closely this time.  Only once is the word "mother"  used. 
" Not long afterward there was again great dearth in the land, and the children heard their mother address their father."
The rest of the time, she was referred to as "his wife"  or "the woman."

I'm so glad you brought up H & G - for a number of reasons.  Here's another example of cannabalism, which we saw in Cinderella.  The frightening thought that the "witch"  was preparing the cauldron to cook up the little boy and girl was something that is repeated in these tales...
 - and the idea that a mother (or stepmother) would want to get rid of the children or abandon them   another frightening, and repeated theme.

JoanR...thank you for Dore's illustrations!  Yes, the fairy godmother looks "witchy."  I wonder why?  We need to go back to early pre-Perrault versions to learn more about this.  I'm still wondering why the Grimms' did NOT include the fairy godmother.  It seems the answer must be lie somewhere in the oral tales they based their stories on...

The concept of the good mother/bad mother in these tales is something that looms.  We'll probably be seeing more of this as we go along.  In the different versions of Cinderella we see the little girl alone in the world with no hope for the future at the mercy of the stepmother and her daughters - OR a little girl whose dying mother promised her that she would always protect her from afar.  That state of mind makes a huge difference to a child who loses her mother and feels alone in the world.

Another thought about Hansel and Gretel and Cinderella - where's Dad?  Why is he so helpless, unable to protect his children from their mother, stepmother -  in both of these stories?  Where was Dad in Red Riding Hood? 

JoanP

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Ursa - we were posting at the same time.  Thank you for bringing up this possibility!
  
 "the evil stepmother was a substitute for the evil mother.   Children will be angry with even a good and loving mother some of the time.  The purpose of the evil stepmother figures was to give the reader/listener a place to dump negative emotions."

 This would explain so much.  I see that Warner has gone into this subject at length in a chapter on The Absent Mother.  Perhaps she wasn't "absent"  at all?

Do you think that knowing the gender of the story teller might make a difference in the portrayal of the mother?