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Now reading:

April 16----BookX:  Aeolus, the Laestrogonians and Circe!  

The imagination of a modern poet, Keats, has discovered for us the thoughts that passed through the brains of the victims of Circe, after their transformation. In his "Endymion" he represents one of them, a monarch in the guise of an elephant, addressing the sorceress in human language, thus:

           "I sue not for my happy crown again;
   I sue not for my phalanx on the plain;
   I sue not for my lone, my widowed wife;
   I sue not for my ruddy drops of life,
   My children fair, my lovely girls and boys;
   I will forget them; I will pass these joys,
   Ask nought so heavenward; so too-too high;
   Only I pray, as fairest boon, to die;
   To be delivered from this cumbrous flesh,
   From this gross, detestable, filthy mesh,
   And merely given to the cold, bleak air.
   Have mercy, goddess! Circe, feel my prayer!"

Aeolus gives Odysseus the Bag of Winds by  Theodor van Thulden (1606-1669)

  

Discussion Leaders:  Joan K & ginny  

Circe offering the cup to Odysseus:
painting by J.W. Waterhouse from the Oldham Art gallery Collection UK

Useful Links:

1. Critical Analysis: Free SparkNotes background and analysis  on the Odyssey
2. Translations Used in This Discussion So Far:
3. Initial Points to Watch For: submitted by JudeS
4. Maps:
Map of the  Voyages of Odysseus
Map of Voyages in order
Map of Stops Numbered
Our Map Showing Place Names in the Odyssey

Circe by Wright Barker, 1900

Babi--hadn't read all the posts when I posted above...guess I was seconding you point of Odysseus putting his men in jeopardy
--lucky to have got that post in before Monday as am now caught up in the reading
Deb

well I guess my last posting was below on the last page

[Babi]

  I think several of us were incensed at Odysseus placing his men in jeopardy, BOOKAD.  Our
idea of the responsibilities of a military leader are somewhat different now.  His first responbility should be his men.  Of course, there have been notable departures from that in our times, too.  Was it the Korean War where some top guy in Washington said he wanted
a high body count, at any cost?  Those weren't the exact words, of course.

    Ah, the first indication of awareness that one’s bad luck is sometimes one’s own fault. 
“...the fair wind failed us when our prudence failed.”  In looking for the explanation of
that statement,  I found only an example of greed with O's men opening that bag of winds,
certain it was treasure.  Is that what he calls a lack of prudence?   I'm not finished with Book
10, so perhaps something else wil arise.

[JoanK]

There's certainly a lot in Book 10 to take in.

I love the story of the bag of winds, for some reason. When you're at a long boring meeting, don't you sometimes wish you could put all the wind in the room in a bag and close it up?

[ginny]

hahaa I love it too. I love the images and there's a lot in this chapter as well. Or book.

 
Just see these descriptions:

Aeolia
is a floating island surrounded by a wall
Of indestructible bronze set on sheer stone.
Aeolus' twelve children live there with him,
Six daughters and six manly sons.

You know when you read something like this you can almost see the origin of every fairy story there is.  How many times have we seen a palace high on the hill, with princesses within? I'm not sure I've seen one with a wall of bronze but I'd like to.

This start reminds me of the awe and wonder I felt as a child reading this type of story and it's kind of cool to have it here as an adult.

Of course like Cleopatra they soon married their brothers, we frown on this today.

But wow what a story! THIS time there's no doubt (or is there?)  who is at fault but two things really surprised me about the Bag o Winds story, did they you?

First off I'm not surprised the men wanted to open the bag, that sounds perfectly normal human behavior: he gets everything, we get nothing (had he told them not to open the bag?) let's just peek.

But I was surprised our hero considered, actually considered,  jumping over the side and ending it all, were you? He didn't. Why not? What do you think made him change his mind?

Then they get blown back to Aeolus and he tells his tale as they are surprised to see him and wow, what a reaction! Did you expect that?

I guess once you give the hospitality you're not obligated to keep repeating it? or?

In these things I always try to think what I would do, am I the only one? If I were O, (who does seem to be having a lot of bad luck) what would I do? He's been blown back, so he's had no choice, what else can he do but ask?

The first question on 10 by the Temple people is:

230 Aeolus, king of the winds, receives O., and sends him off with a bag of winds, which his crew opens when he sleeps. Who is to blame here? Pay attention to the description of Aeolus' family. What does that mean?

[Dana]

I think Odysseus should have explained to his men about what was in the bag and why they shouldn't open it, but that wd spoil the tale......

In Fitzgerald Aiolos says why he won't help him again

"Take yourself out of this  island, creeping thing--
no law, no wisdom lays it on me now
to help a man the blessed gods detest--
out!  Your voyage here was cursed by heaven!"

[JudeS]

In a book I have called "It's all Greek to me" we have a history of "windbag'.
After the description from chapt. 10 in Odysseus the author, Michael McCrone, writes:
"In the fifteenth century the word was used to describe the bellows of an organ. Later one's winbags were his or her lungs. Finally a "windbag " became a pretentious braggart. The proverb "words are but wind" appears as early as the thirteenth century, but it wasn't till the nineteenth that someone full of hot air was called a windbag.

Homer has had so much influence on Literature -In the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hugo compares Quasimodo to the Cyclops. In other passages he brings up Homeric comparisons that it must have been a book every child studied in school.
I wonder if Homer is taught in the High School curriculum these days?

[ginny]

OH isn't that fascinating, thank you for that! I don't know if the kids read the Odyssey in school any more, how can we find out?

If not they are really missing something. I absolutely love this chapter. Everybody is reading Harry Potter, how is that better than this? All we need is a youthful hero here and we don't have one. Unless you consider Telemachus one.

I know a lot of adults who read Harry Potter, I myself read  quite a few of them, this is sooo much better, this touches on The Twelve Dancing Princesses and every Once Upon a  Time story there ever was.

Dana, so it's the gods again? "Creeping thing?" wow. Cursed by the gods. 

Here I have to feel for O. How do you feel about him here, Deb? THIS is not his fault, is it? He can't stay awake 24/7.

Dana says he should have told his men to keep off.  Do you agree?

This scene was repeated in The Pirates of the Carribean, and I think more than once. It's good stuff. He wasn't watching over the bag, he was tired of trimming the sail himself. Maybe he can't...what do you call it? Delegate authority?

On the plot before and the issues which came up, we can all think as we please about the book (we're going to anyway hahahaa) and we might find interesting some of the stuff this latest guy says as he makes some good points (or read that some I never thought of), so once the storms die here tomorrow I'll bring him in and if we don't like him we can throw him overboard.

Poor O, this is the first time I've felt sorry for him, all his pizzaz is gone, and he has been thru a lot. He's lost  his cockiness, he's really taken a hit, he's seriously considering jumping overboard, but decides to remain with his robe over his head. Groaning again.  I can't figure out why, tho? HE didn't do the wrong thing.

Did he?  I don't  know, seems like no matter what he does it's wrong.  What does that Temple question mean?

Babi, how do you feel about O now?

Frybabe,  that's interesting that you think he's had some choice in all of this,  I kind of agree actually. He's just made a big one but he didn't choose to open that bag.

This is just a magic section, Harry Potter for Adults.

The first question on 10 by the Temple people is:

230 Aeolus, king of the winds, receives O., and sends him off with a bag of winds, which his crew opens when he sleeps. Who is to blame here? Pay attention to the description of Aeolus' family.

Huh?

[PatH]

I don't know if modern kids study the Odyssey or not, but the Greek gods are alive and well.  Just ask JoanK's grandson. A current best seller  for middle schoolers is the 5 volume series "Percy Jackson and the Olympians" by Rick Riordan, in which a modern day 11 year old (11 in the first volume) Percy Jackson, son of Poseidon by a mortal, has to find out who he is, then figure out how to defeat Kronos, who is once again trying to rise and overthrow his children (Zeus, etc).  In the process we meet all the gods, learn about many of their rivalries, and a lot of the myths and stories we're dealing with here.  Actually, it might be a pretty decent preparation for this discussion.

[kidsal]

Did Odysseus know what was in the bag??

[Babi]

I was surprised at Aeolus reaction when Odysseus and his crew returned. But from what
Aeolus said, I gather that the incident was considered to be evidence that these men were
in strong disfavor with the gods. Aeolus wasn't about to get on the wrong side of that.

I see DANA has quoted the verse I had in mind. And I do agree that it would have been
sensible to let the crew know what was in the bag. Of course, they might still have decided
that was just a story to keep them out, and opened the bag anyway.

[Babi]

 Okay, it seems I didn't get the memo.  Where is everybody?!!   

[PatH]

Did Odysseus know what was in the bag??

It sounds like he did, though it's not specifically said.  Too bad he didn't use it for a pillow when he got sleepy.

By the way, since Aeolus left the West wind free (that means the wind coming from the west) that means they had to sail east to get home.

[PatH]

I keep noticing ways in which these Greeks are sort of like the Vikings. 

Their ships and seamanship are similar—the steering oars look the same, as do the sails, and what they could do was similar, though the Vikings were more expert.

The Vikings had a similar style of feasting and gift giving.  The leaders would hold huge feasts and give costly gifts.  These were mostly to the people who served them though, who would presumably  help on the raids that would bring more treasure.  The Greeks seem to give more to random guests.  I wonder about the economics, though—how did they afford the constant drain?  Where did they get more treasure?

The raid on the Cicones, killing all the men and carrying off the women and treasure, was exactly what Vikings would have done, though the Vikings mostly had the sense to sail away promptly.

[kidsal]

BABI:  Book X

[JoanK]

PATH told me about viking sailors and beards. Among the Vikings, beards were a sign of manhood. But they could be a problem -- blowing in their eyes. So they used to braid their beards.

So I noticed whether the Greek sailors on the vases had beards. Most of them were cleanshaven. A few had beards, but short ones. Clearly beards weren't needed to show manhood.

Which raises other questions. Did sailors at sea shave? With what? Were they too young to have beards? Ahhh, the questions are endless.

[bookad]

end of ch 10

wouldn't you think one year is kind of overstaying your welcome--does our hero remember his wife is probably worried sick about him, and how is she managing on the home front?

[Babi]

    I meant where are the posters, KIDSAL. No one had posted since my last post the previous day.

   Nothing like being able to tell your own story; you can dress it up nicely.   Here we have Hermes telling Odysseus that Kirke “ will cower and yield her bed,- a pleasure you must
not decline..”   This is how O’ was to set his friends free, you see.  He wasn’t being unfaithful...certainly not...he was doing what was necessary.  Yeah.  Right.

[JoanK]

 

[PatH]

At the beginning of chapter 10, when Odysseus starts his story to Alcinous:

No sight is sweeter to me than Ithaca.  Yes,
Calypso, the beautiful goddess, kept me
In her caverns, and yearned to possess me;
And Circe, the witch of Aeaea, held me
In her halls and yearned to possess me;
but they could not persuade me or touch my heart.

Odysseus is good at putting himself in the best light.

[ginny]

I think your reactions are fascinating. It seems in 2011 we want to hold our heroes to a certain standard, would you agree or not?

We want them to be pure in mind, morals, and spirit.

Why is that?

Are people so different than they were 3000 years ago?  

Some people might say O is remarkably moral, would you agree or disagree?

When has he failed (I'm just being Devil's Advocate here but I'm reading old Filth which in itself is another Odyssey, every time you turn the page you've got something as my grandson, now 4, would say is "new and interesting.") but when has he failed to be moral, really, what choice does he have in most of this? He keeps coming up against "women" who are goddesses and he really has no power over them. Note when he does have power, as in the case of Alcinous's daughter, he has no problem moving on.

And Old Filth encounters odd happenings, too, it reminds me somewhat of The Odyssey, it's  strange, perhaps not as strange as a sorceress turning men into pigs, but strange.

Perhaps O has had a reason for all this sighing. Man can't catch a break. They sail to Aeolus, they get winds, within 10 miles of home the men open it in a truly Pirates of the Caribbean gesture. They get blown back, Aeolus says begone cursed people.

They next land in the land of the Laestrygonians. The scouts get eaten. O flees, they hurl boulders  and here O loses all his men except one ship, so here's the great loss. These are giants too and again with the cannibalism.

Is there much mention of cannibalism among the ancient Greeks? I am not sure other than this book I've read of it, but these are monsters, too. Giants. I mean Harry Potter is tame next to this. Reminds you of the ancient maps: here there be monsters.

Again the Laestrygonians spear the men and eat them.

O canNOT catch a break.

And THEN they come to the island of  Aeaea, and they creep in without a sound and lay low for 2 days.

Then O peeps out, he IS the leader. He needs to feed his men, he sees smoke, he kills a stag,  I loved his talk to the men,

"It's been hard going.
We don't know eat from west right now,
But we have to see if we have any good ideas left."

 hahaha

Notice the "ideas" bit, he's still relying on his wits, not his brawn.

They don't want to hear this, after what they've been thru, he divides the men into parties, the first gets to the goddess Circe's house, she's weaving. Weaving again. She gives them drugged wine, cheese, and honey stirred in (UGG) and bingo:

What a hoot! Is this the origin of men as pigs? hahaha

Now if O were not a moral man, what would he be tempted to do? What would you do? What would  George Clooney do in 2011?

Would you say the sailors in 2011 would be more or less expendable than they were 3,000 years ago?

O is telling this story to an audience and from that audience he wants help. Is he more or less likely I wonder to paint himself as good here or not? Should we be surprised if he does paint himself in glowing terms?

How can he be a "hero" to all mankind if he paints himself otherwise?

And here comes another intervention, this time by Hermes. O will need something because Circe is a goddess herself, a sorceress, and he would normally be powerless. He gets a potion, he gets the royal treatment, he protests he can't enjoy himself while they are pigs and she turns them back,  I loved his description of how his men on the ship greeted him upon his return to the ships, what writing this is!

So now we have another small rebellion, this time by Eurylochus. O says come on to the palace (wonder why? Has he forgotten he's the only one with Hermes and the magic potion?) Eurylochus, who has just seen what wonders await, says HEY, NO!

For the first time it appears somebody else has directly blamed O for the death of his men. (IS this the first time somebody IN the book has blamed O?)


"Remember what the Cyclops did when our  shipmates
Went into his lair? It was this reckless Odysseus
Who led them there. It was his fault they died."

That's the first I've seen O being directly blamed by somebody other than us. hahaha

I thought the reaction was fascinating. Finally he listens to the crew.  

They stay a year and then the crew again intervenes... let's GO.

Isn't this interesting? So he listens again. I need to make a list of the times he listens and when he does not and the result and see who's right, just for my own curiosity.

And she says sure you can leave, but first you have to go to Hell. hahashaaa Literally. And he's not the only superhero of the ancients who has to take a trip there, is he? Seems to be a regular rite of passage and again most do not come back out.  We've got Aeneas and the golden bough, and now we have O, too.


I'm not sure how much more exciting this could get to the ancient listener hearing it for the first time. We have  a book out now on the bestseller lists which is about a young boy's trip into death and his return and telling of his experiences, so we can't look too askance at somebody 3000 years ago with the same type of experience.


One of the questions the Spark Notes asks is "In what ways does Odysseus develop as a character during the course of the narrative? Does he develop at all?"

Their answer here is very interesting and the episode we just had with the Cyclops seems to be a good pivotal point. We didn't think much of him there, right? He's rash, he's a braggart for whatever reason, he's speaking for the first time and we get a look at him from his point of view.

An interesting point Spark makes is "Odysseus's internal conflict is not nearly as consuming as that of Achilles in the Iliad, making up a relatively small part of his overall journey..."

Even if you haven't read the Iliad and know nothing of Achilles, what's your opinion of any internal conflict O might be feeling?

If he is feeling it, what is it?  Are we in 2011 more or less a ... I want to say navel gazing psychobabble society but I am afraid to offend, but are we more...sensitive to feelings  than they were?  What's he supposed to do?

I am not seeing a lot of internal conflict? It seems that most of his conflict is with other, bigger battles? Is his biggest battle with himself or others? What are your thoughts?

Sorry this is so long,  I obviously lack the gift of succinctness.  

[Babi]

Oh, GINNY, you are so right. We do want to hold our heroes to certain standards. However,
they are not heroes, to my thinking, if they are inhumanly perfect. I don't expect a hero
to be 'pure' in mind, morals and spirit. I expect him to hold himself to certain standards,
to struggle with it along with the rest of us. But he will dare more, do more, and make
a difference.

  At times, in this story of Kirke (Circe),  I can see why there is speculation that the Odyssey was written by more than one person.  It seems to change from a tale of a noble and cunning  warrior to a story for leering and knowing male chuckles. 
    Circe is all sympathy, telling the men she knows how much they have suffered, how hard the journey has been, with no joys or pleasures for them.  She invites them to stay and rest until they are recovered, eating and drinking  until they “restore their gallant hearts”.   Then Odysseus, narrating, says “As we were men, we could not help consenting.”    So
they lingered for a year!??   And they could not help it, because 'they were men’?   Oh, please, spare me.

[JudeS]

Babi
They were MEN!
Look, if this is a reality story we can find a lot of fault. However if this is fiction (I tend to think it is) then we have to look at the story in another light.
I think what brought this question front and center to my mind is Ginny mentioning that book of a three year old boy and his journey into death and back told by the boy.  Now whoever believes that story will believe(or wish to believe) anything.

 I find a lot of "fun" in The Odyssey if I compare it to Harry Potter. I find a lot more problems if I compare it to the story of Kon- Tikki by Thor Hyderhal (a true reality story of a sea voyage). What I want to look at is the fantastic art this story has elicited, the importance of the plot in the literature of the last 3,000 years and the hints that lead us to understand the life of the Greek people of that time. I can't judge it by the morals of today.

[JoanK]

" What I want to look at is the fantastic art this story has elicited, the importance of the plot in the literature of the last 3,000 years and the hints that lead us to understand the life of the Greek people of that time. I can't judge it by the morals of today."

Good point!

But we do see in this story, differences from the orals, customs and thinking of today. To me, the point is not to say how awful those Greeks were, but to use the differences to better understand our own culture. For example, this ook is full of men throwing their clothes over their heads and weeping. If a man in our culture did that, we'd think he was crazy. But clearly among the Greeks it's a normal way of expressing deep emotion. O's always saying he feels like killing himself the same.

Do greek men have deeper emotions than 21st century American men? I doubt it. But the way in which we express those feelings is different in different societies. that's interesting to me.

Clearly the sex mores of the greeks are different from ours. Throughout the Iliad and odyssey, it's taken for granted that men sleep with other  women, while their wives should remain faithful. I don't like this, but we can't blame O for the mores of his time. In fact, he's better than the other Greek heroes, who capture women to sleep with, whether they want to or not. O only has sex when the woman initiates it, and he is "compelled".

[kidsal]

Doubt if George Patton thought much of O.  Sends his men directly into towns without first scouting around to get the lay of the land.  As soon as they saw the drugged wolves they should have suspected something.  O did once have a fall back plan when he left his ship outside the harbor -- but otherwise NO.  Why does Hermes care?

[Babi]

JUDE & JOANK, it's that "compelled" part that I'm having a hard time swallowing. Though,
come to think of it, I don't suppose it's greatly different from the school of thought that
says people can't help their actions because of early hardships or trauma.

 After a year with Circe,  the crew...not Odysseus...decides enough is enough and asks O, “Captain, shake off this trace, and think of home--if home indeed awaits us...”  Circe agrees to let them go, but not home.  Once again, a god/goddess tells O he must do something else before he can go home, and of course the gods must be obeyed.  Odysseus must go to the “cold homes of Death and pale Persephone”  and hear what the prophet Teiresias has to say.
  Naturally, I was curious about this Teiresias.  I found this...

  A famous prophet of Thebes. Teiresias accidentally came across Athena while she was bathing, so she blinded him. At his mother pleading Athena gave Teiresias the gift of prophecy to compensate for his blindness. Among his prophecies were: A warning to Pentheus to recognize and honor Dionysus when he first appeared in Thebes. A prediction of the greatness of Hercules. He revealed to Oedipus that Oedipus had unknowingly murdered his own father. Advice to Odysseus on how to placate Poseidon.

  Thought this was excellent, too.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Johann_Heinrich_F%C3%BCssli_063.jpg

[bookad]

have had a change of heart about reading 'The Odyssey'

have been reading 'Homeric Moments, clues to delight in reading the Odyssey by Eva Brann' and she compares translations ...stating the obvious...that each translation 'preserves different features of the origional'--maybe this book has been mentioned before, but don't want to scroll thru the posts to find out--but in only the first chapter have found something to help me understand a 'why' that has been at the back of my mind, and stopping me from enjoying the book in the sense I believe it was intended

her example which really brought this home to me came from 'The Iliad'
where Achilles is saddened by the death of his friend, Patroclus

in one translation Achilles states 'I have lost him'  ::)which to me would suggest misplaced, 'oh well win some lose some'....lack of emotion
the author uses a different set of words meaning the same but  'I have destroyed him'''gives me a better feeling about Achilles having let his friend go to war in his place and how he feels about it and his empathies are a deep sadness for what has happened to his friend

the book I have, is very readable; the author having read and taught Homer for over 50 years and I am excited to have found it
now back to reading

--just wanted to share my thoughts; not on topic as usual

Deb

[PatH]

The "compelled" bit may be more real than we think.  The Greek stories are full of people who try to escape prophecies, but no matter what they do, their actions bring about the prophecy anyway.

For some reason, although I've been picking holes in Odysseus' character for several days, that doesn't put me off him.  He's a mythic hero, and I'm standing back and watching.  Later on we'll see a different side of him, a contrast to Achilles.

That's a great painting of Tiresias, Babi.  Later, in Ovid, Tiresias is said to have spent 7 years as a woman before figuring out how to turn back into a man.  Jupiter and Hera asked him to settle their argument over which sex got more pleasure in coupling.  If you get in the middle of an argument with the gods, you're toast no matter what you do.  Tiresias said women, and Hera blinded him.

[PatH]

We were posting at the same time, Deb.  That sounds like quite a book.

[JoanK]

DEB: that sounds like a real find. Do share more of it, when yoou see good bits.

PAT: I remember hearing that version of Terisias, but didn't connect it to this one.

BABI: he looks just like a profit should look, doesn't he? Or at least an Old Testament profit. He looks like he's in Hades, so maybe that's O listening to him?

[sandyrose]

I finally caught up on reading all your posts.  It is so interesting as there are so many different interpretations here.  I find myself saying "wow, why did I not see that".

A ways back Ginny said---

remember, this is O talking, not the omiscient narrator.

This was also mentioned in the intro to the revised Rieu translation I am reading.... Page XXII says remember 9 thru 12, "O is telling the story at this point: no one will steal his limelight."   And it says this is probably why the crew seems to be rather colorless.

Since Book 9, Cyclops, O in my opinion is foolhardy rather than stupid.  I looked that up just to be sure it is what I mean...Miriam Webster says...  Definition of FOOLHARDY : foolishly aventurous and bold : rash  

Kidsal asks

Why does Hermes care?

What a great question....was he sent by another god?  Athena maybe?

And my question is why is O called the favorite of Zuess??  yet always complaining about his woes brought on by Zuess ??  Perhaps I forget it is O telling this and has to blame someone.

[JoanK]

SANDY: great that you're up with us. If any of you fall behind, don't feel that you HAVE to read all the old posts. If there are a lot, it can be overwhelming, and we'd rather you just jumped in than feel you can't catch up.

Did you notice that O attributes EVERYTHING to the gods? "Some god helped me" if any little thing goes well. So at least he's consistant when he blames the gods for everything that goes badly.

[sandyrose]

Yes, thank you Joan.  Good way to look at it-- O does give credit to the gods for everything and makes sacrifices as well.

[roshanarose]

The topic of the ancient Greeks and the origin of their gods is huge. I have just done a quick bit of research as to the gods' origins, and found this:

Theories of origin
In antiquity, authors like Herodotus speculated that the Greeks had borrowed their gods wholesale from the Egyptians. Later, Christian writers would attempt to explain Hellenic paganism as a degeneration of Biblical religion. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, however, the sciences of archaeology and linguistics were brought to bear on the origins of Greek mythology.

Historical linguistics, on the one hand, shows that certain parts of the Greek pantheon were inherited from Indo-European society, along with the roots of the Greek language. Thus, for example, the name Zeus is cognate with Latin Jupiter, Sanskrit Dyaus and Germanic Tyr (see Dyeus), as is Ouranos with Sanskrit Varuna. In other cases, close parallels in character and function suggest a common heritage, yet lack of linguistic evidence makes it difficult to prove — as in the case of the Greek Moirae and the Norns of Norse mythology.

Archaeology, on the other hand, has shown extensive borrowing by the Greeks from the civilizations of Asia Minor and the Near East. Cybele is a clear example of borrowing from Anatolian culture, while Aphrodite takes much of her iconography and titles from goddesses of the Semitic world such as Ishtar and Astarte.

Textual studies reveal multiple layers in tales, such as secondary asides bringing Theseus into tales of The Twelve Labours of Herakles. Such tales concerning tribal eponyms are thought to originate in attempts to absorb mythology of one tradition into another, in order to unite the cultures.

There is quite a bit more on the topic.  Here is the link: www.photius.com/religion/greek_gods.html

Ginny asks are we so different to people of 3000 years ago.  Religion is  definitely a reason why we are so different; but when you think about it religious differences are still a major concern.  Now I am going to go back to that link - it is fascinating.

  

[JudeS]

Oh my gosh Roshanarose
What a great article!
However I will need at least one University semester if not two in order to learn all that material.
It is the best LOOOOONG summary I've seen. A great referral tool.
Thanks

[Babi]

  Good point, PATH, about the Greek belief that one cannot escape prophecies...or fate.
Remembering that makes all these side jaunts of O's more reasonable.
 

"If you get in the middle of an argument with the gods, you're toast no matter what
 you do."

Yes,indeed!

 Yes, JOANK, that's supposed to be Teiresias prophesying to Odysseus. I didn't take a
close look at the background; just had the impression of blocks of stone towering to
one side. Teiresias was supposed to be in the "cold home" of Persephone. Was the Greek
idea of Hades cold? Or was that 'cold home' perhaps a reference to the grave?

 From our viewpoint today, SANDY, I'd definitely say we'd consider Odysseus foolishly
adventurous and rash. Or maybe that's just a woman's viewpoint? Would today's men still
find O's actions bold and daring, I wonder?

[BarbStAubrey]

It is hard to take all this with 'the gods made me do it' after having seen Flip Wilson on TV  with his signature 'The Devil made me do it'. I keep waiting to find the twist that is not so obvious - O does have a reputation for being wily and above the fray of the average so that I keep looking at this as a chess game rather than checkers with his exploits - but so for all I am seeing is checkers which is not fitting the rap about O. It appears like O is saying 'look ma no hands' while racing dangerously close so that he risks the lives of others.

Yes, the web site was great - used it as a guide to find some University web sites that offer bits and pieces where as that site gathers it all together in one spot.

Fascinating to me PBS is showing a Nova about the history of the Bible and that brings in the history of Egypt - amazing to me - I knew but didn't know till now when it hits me - how much older Egypt is than the Greeks and then to see what was going on in Egypt and Canaan when this tale is supposed to have taken place as well as later when Homer is reported to be alive weaving the tale.

Found this site that has a chart showing the various civilizations and what was happening when BC. -
http://http-server.carleton.ca/~mflynnbu/archives/chrono.htm

[Frybabe]

Timelines help to put things in perspective. Thanks for the link, Barb.

Roshanarose, I noticed Karl Jung listed among the modern interpreters of Greek myth so I looked him up. Years ago I read a book about Jungian Archetypes. Other than that I didn't know (or remember) much about him.  Interestingly, his father's middle name was Achilles. He seems to have delved quite  a bit into mythology, religions and proto-religions, and rituals. He even wrote about about the archetypal meaning and psychological significance of reported UFO sightings.

[JoanK]

BARB: The timeline really does put things in perspective. I also hadn't realized how much earlier the Egyptians were than any of the other civilizations we know about.

Also puts into perspective time differences in Homer. The difference between his writying and what he is describing is what? (I've forgotten -- hundreds of years.) And hundreds of years again between homer's writing and the Greek History and writers we think of when we think of ancient Greece.

ROSE: The question of where the greek gods came from is fascinating: and one I never thought of before. I wonder to what extent Homer is the earliest source that later greeks had. Of course, that doesn't tell us where homer got his picture of the gods. Borrowing from Asia minor seems very plausible.

[roshanarose]

I am so glad you liked the web site I offered.  Yours is great also, Barb.  Isn't the internet just awesome???!!!  I personally think that a thorough knowledge of the Greek gods and goddesses is essential in understanding Homer.

Frybabe you might also like to look up Max Muller and Karl Kerenyi and their work on mythology.

I have just seen on Yahoo news the devastating tornadoes that hit parts of the US. My thoughts are with you.   I truly hope that if you or any of your loved ones who are in that area  all came out unscathed. Blessings.

Nature is still meting it out here, in Australia, too, but on a much lesser scale.  We have been having minor earthquakes up north and around Perth.  I hope you are OK Gum.

[BarbStAubrey]

talk about natural disasters - tonight on PBS is an hour long show of the "bush fires that tore through the Australian state of Victoria in February 2009 incinerated over a million acres of land, including key mountain ash forest ecosystems"