Ovid's Metamorphoses

[BarbStAubrey]

The Fall of Phaethon by Sebastiano Ricci, 1703-04, Belluno

---http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/trans/Metamorph.htm#488381088---Translated by  A.S. Kline...(This one has its own built in clickable dictionary)...

---http://classics.mit.edu         /Ovid/metam.html...---Translated by Sir Samuel Garth, John Dryden, et al


----    http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses1.html----Translated by Brookes More

Family Tree of the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome:

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/roman-gods/roman-gods-family-tree.htm

-------http://www.talesbeyondbelief.com/greek-gods-mythology/greek-gods-family-tree.htm

For Your Consideration:

“Week” Four: Phaethon!

Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father

What Do You Think?

1. Are there any themes which appear in the beginning of the Phaethon story while it's still in Book I which could happen today?

2. Why is Clymene angry?

Let's discuss the end of Book I.

Former Questions, Still up for  Grabs:

1. What to  you is the saddest thing in the Io story?

2. This story is full of beautiful descriptions. Which lines particularly struck you? Do they interfere with the plot line?

3. What effect do the flashback elements and the interruption of the Pan and Syrinx have on the reader's feelings for Io?

4. What would you say is the tone of the Io story?

5. This is quite a story, it has two metamorphoses and two aetiological myths in it. Which one is the most important?

6. What might Io's struggles to communicate symbolize in our own time?

7. Who actually has the last word in this section?

8. What's your impression of Io's father?

9. If you had to choose between being Io or Daphne, which one would you choose? Why?

Discussion Leaders: PatH and ginny

Thank you, Barbara

[BarbStAubrey]

Howshap it appears many of these gods have more than one name - some as I read are simple explanations, the difference is between the Greek name and the Roman name - Like Juno - I could not place her till I read her name as Hera and then it made some sense so my way to handle that was to give both names - it appears Argus is also known as Panoptes and Argus Panoptes -

Another word I've been coming across that I thought I understood and so glad I looked it up is epithet -

A copy of the definitions - "is a byname, or a descriptive term (word or phrase), accompanying or occurring in place of a name and having entered common usage. It can be described as a glorified nickname. It has various shades of meaning when applied to seemingly real or fictitious people, divinities, objects, and binomial nomenclature (formal scientific name or informal the Latin name). It can also be a descriptive title: for example, Alexis I the Quiet or Suleiman the Magnificent."

Argus Panoptes, guardian of the heifer-nymph Io and son of Arestor, was a primordial giant whose epithet, "Panoptes", "all-seeing", led to his being described with multiple, often one hundred, eyes.

The epithet Panoptes, reflecting his mythic role, set by Hera as a very effective watchman of Io, was described in a fragment of a lost poem Aigimios, attributed to Hesiod:

And set a watcher upon her, great and strong
Argus, who with four eyes looks every way. And
the goddess stirred in him unwearying strength:
sleep never fell upon his eyes; but he kept sure
watch always.

Evidently the killing of Argus is the first act of bloodshed among this newer generation of gods. I've also read that from the 5th century onward having a sleepless night, feeling alertness was describes as having "so many eyes that only a few of the eyes would sleep at a time: there were always eyes still awake".

[PatH]

Howshap, that must be awful when you're typing your homework.  Like the joke.

[BarbStAubrey]

Some how the joke part is going over my head - help...!

Another tidbit - I did not know - Argus is Lo's brother - ha so that is how we have the patriarchal viewpoint of brothers watching, not only for her protection but, to be sure their sister is not dating the wrong feller or for some even dating at all. Argus I bet set the example.

[BarbStAubrey]

a 5th century BC pot now housed in Vienna - Argus or as they label him, Argos Panoptes, with his hundred eyes -

the 100 eyes of Argus

[bellamarie]

Barb,   

Olivia introduces Berkeley grad, summa cum laude, Jeannine Locke to the press as her loyal friend, sister and daughter who wink, wink, did not have sex with the president, thereby throwing the press off the scent that she, Olivia was the president's long time love affair.

Not to go too far off topic, I'm wondering if you are catching up on the series Scandal?  It was made public Olvia and the President were having an affair and she actually moved into the White House, and before it ended at Christmas break, she had an abortion.  They actually showed her having the abortion while playing "Silent Night" as the background music.  That is and will be the last time I ever watch that show.  Sorry if I gave away spoilers.   

Okay back to Io.......

[BarbStAubrey]

Thanks for heads up - I find the intrigue fascinating - who sides with whom and whose feelings are hurt and how they handle it - some of it I think, oh ya that is what people do and other times I laugh because I've seen that reaction many times and then wonder what kind of twist they are going to arrange so it is not same old, same old -

Since Olivia and the president have not been together for 6 months and she shows no sign of being pregnant, the show you speak of must have been a past episode - now the president's wife Mellie I think is her name is not only writing a book but is planning to run for president along with the woman who is currently vice-president who has a low opinion of herself - I never can remember their names but the characters are so iconic to stories we read out of Washington DC.

To me it is like watching a computer game of little people running up and down various streets at times having a hammer hit them on the head and other times falling into a hole.  But more, I am seeing now so many scenarios in various stories are really just up to date examples of the stories of metamorphose brought to us by Ovid. It's fun...

[PatH]

Is Argus really Io's brother?  He is the son of Arestor, and Io is the daughter of Inachus.  She is called the Argive, but it is because she is the princess of Argos, the capital of Argolis, the land of which Inachus is the river god.

[BarbStAubrey]

In Ovid's Metamorphoses Books 1-5 (Bks 1-5)Jan 15, 1998 by Ovid and William S. Anderson - The bit of the book online says,

Ovid had discovered Io had a brother Phoroneus and it goes on explaining the Greek and Latin words

Looking up Phoroneus we learn... Phoroneus /fəˈrɒnˌjuːs/ (Φορωνεύς) was a culture-hero of the Argolid, fire-bringer, primordial king of Argos and son of the river god Inachus and either Melia, the primordial ash-tree nymph or Argia, the embodiment of the Argolid itself:

The founder of what was to become Argos, the "City of Phoroneus," is Phoroneus himself, son of the river god Inachus, and said to be the first man.

Io was a priestess of the Goddess Hera in Argos, whose cult her father Inachus was supposed to have introduced to Argos. Zeus noticed Io, a mortal woman, and lusted after her. In the version of the myth told in Prometheus Bound she initially rejected Zeus' advances, until her father threw her out of his house on the advice of oracles. According to some stories, Zeus then turned Io into a heifer in order to hide her from his wife; others maintain that Hera herself transformed Io.

Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities: Phoroneus: First King of Argos, Inventor of fire, son of the River God Inachus and the ash nymph Melia and the brother of Aegialeus and Io.

"Inachus, son of Oceanus, begat Phoroneus by his sister Argia," wrote Hyginus, in Fabulae 143.

From the website Greek Mythology: Phoroneus was the primordial king of the city of Argos in Greek mythology, and a hero of the area. He was the son of the river god Inachus, The myth has it that he founded the city of Argos after the flood With either Melia, the ash-tree nymph, or Argia, the personification of the region of Argolid. Phoroneus was the person that gathered the people of the area into a community, and then taught them how to create a fire and how to use the forge. 

Phoroneus introduced the worship of Hera -

Inachus is a river god with Melia and Argia birthed Niobe, the first mortal woman who slept with Zeus, gave birth to Argus and Pelasgus. The first succeeded Phoroneus, and the second is reported to have reigned in Argolis, the inhabitants of the Peloponnesus being called Pelasgians after him. Otherwise he is remembered as the king of Argos.

Other sites say that there was an Argus 5 who was the grandson of Phoroneus - however, any grandson or even a son would not be around when Lo was transformed into a heifer nor when Hera was dueling over control with Zeus as Juna and Jupiter.

[BarbStAubrey]

I keep looking and cannot find the story of the 100 eyes using the name of Phoroneus - evidently that is supposed to be in Ovid's handbook - Pat, do you know anything about Ovid's Handbook?

[bellamarie]

Barb, 

To me it is like watching a computer game of little people running up and down various streets at times having a hammer hit them on the head and other times falling into a hole.  But more, I am seeing now so many scenarios in various stories are really just up to date examples of the stories of metamorphose brought to us by Ovid. It's fun...

OMG  I almost spit my tea out reading this, laughing so hard.  Like I said in an earlier post....some things never change.  Just different century, different names, different characters. 

Good job keeping up with who is who in the mythological genealogy. It reminds me of the Bible, so and so begat so and so, and they begat........  etc., etc.

[bellamarie]

Just saw on TV that Harper Lee has died in her sleep, at the age of 89.  R.I.P. To a marvelous author who's book To Kill A Mockingbird will live on forever.

[ginny]

What a fascinating discussion!

On the nature of Argus I found this in the OCCL:

1.In Greek myth the herdsman that Hera set to watch Io, given the epithet Panoptes because he had eyes all over his body.  [The name now makes perfect sense if the eyes are all over his body].  When Hermes killed him, Hera placed his eye on the peacock's tail.

2. The craftsman who built the ship Argo

3. In Homer's Odyssey, the dog which recognizes his owner Odysseus on his return and then dies.

Howard, how aptly named. So the eyes are all over the body not just the head. Loved that R2D2 Joan K!  LOVE those illustrations, Barbara, you can SEE the eyes all over the body, loved the steps.

In looking up Phaethon's mother the other day I found almost a million myths on her alone, there are 8 by that name and the one I wanted had as many as 4 iterations. She was mother, depending on who you read, of half the world.

The issue is the different people sharing the same myth throughout time and you know yourself you can't tell one person in a line a fact without it being completely changed by the others in the line and we're talking thousands of years of line. It's a miracle there is any coherent story.

Ovid's part, however,  is adding the illumination of human feelings to these Stock Mythic Characters.

Doesn't that show us, tho,  I just realized, that it's our own take on it and bringing it into our own understanding that makes the myth live on. If we did not do that for our own culture, then the myth would die.  The modern myth, that is.

And in reading last night Shakespeare and the Uses of Antiquity: An Introductory Essay by Michelle Martindale, I found this statement:

All plays about historical events deal both with the past and with the present. Anachronism is thus, in one form or another, the necessary condition of their being. Not even the most learned historian could avoid it, because the past is only partly knowable, because we cannot wholly detach ourselves from our own time, and because any presentation of the past in contemporary language will involve accommodations.

I really dislike google books. All that happens now when you want to see a particular quote is google books comes up, you can't do much with it, but I just noticed last night a little "share" type of thing and what you CAN do, and what I see some of you knew long before I did,  is that you can then "share" that quote in email or drop box or whatever to others. And that might be good advertising. Not sure what that does to copyright laws.

It's quite handy, isn't it? I emailed myself that quote because I think it's important, and thought you might also like to see it.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting Ginny the Michelle Martindale quote about Historical Plays - saying we are of our times and the past is not knowable - A good review of seeing the value in History which had me wonder than about the use and value of myth. Of course googled just that and came up with pages of links offering explanations.

These two really caught my eye - some like Britannica were so short and said without explanation similar to how other sites shared - almost a definition of myth without going into the use and value and how we express who we are using myth. These two sites I found easy to read without sounding like an address to a symposium of scholars teaching and studying mythology -

This first defines for us the difference between Myth, Fable, Folk Lore and Legend and goes into the importance of Myth

http://mythsdreamssymbols.com/importanceofmyth.html

This page in David K. Abraham's website really hits the mark with questions like: "A myth is a story that has significance to a culture (or species), a story that addresses fundamental and difficult questions that human beings ask: who and what am I, where did I come from, why am I here, how should I live, what is the right thing to do, what is the universe, how did it all begin?"

http://www.davidkabraham.com/OldWeb/Beliefs/Education/mythology.htm

After reading several of these sites with the question in mind of what is the use and value of Myth I started to question the American myth - there is Casey at the Bat - win or lose it is how we play the game and there are three chances not one - and then from the giant who we fear but cradles a women, King Kong. The story shows the magnitude of human greatness and today, the racial aspect of the movie is examined showing the abduction of Blacks. Both views are within our American culture.

Then we cannot help but see various characters who started out as comic book heroes and are now mainstream examples of the American belief in itself - Superman, Captain America, Spider Man to Charlie Brown and the Cowboy myths - lots of historical myths that would fall into the Michelle Martindale explanation of past and present and how we do not leave behind our own times. That would sure fit the more recent discussions about King Kong.

What I see is we can judge something good or bad or, we can see a myth requiring we remove our judging nature or else, we are saying our reading a myth is to sort the worthy from what we condemn while missing the valuable. 

I'm thinking of King Kong - I saw the movie back before WWII - yep, scared me but then to many of us who were feeling the affects of the Great Depression - history may say the depression was over in the late 30s but the families I knew were not prospering so that this monster gorilla that broke out of its chains was depicted as being gentle with a frightened young attractive woman while hysterical men tried to fly by and shoot this animal like monster that was so big it could swipe planes out of the sky. It, like many movies of the time seemed to show us we did not have to be afraid of the monsters. Where as today seeing that same movie and with our focus on race relations another aspect of the story is featured.

I am thinking while writing - questioning - the stories of Ovid in many ways are so off the wall with as Joan said earlier - one rape after another - and yet, the coupling of these folks is so beyond anything we can imagine happening today, we would see the whole lot of them locked up -

To get anything out of all this, some folks have spent their working lives studying these ancient myths and because they are not historical happenings and as Ginny says, there are so many versions of these stories there is little fat checking. The idea seems appropriate of turning to these professionals who have spent years deciphering therefore, are better equipped to give us a que and thus a clue to what is meant by the behavior that today has a different shade of meaning.

Ginny I do  not remember the dog in the return of Odysseus - was the dog named Argo or Argus?

I am still having fun with the 1000 eye aspect of the story - I wonder if only half the eyes sleep if that is behind the wink wink smile smile story of Moms having eyes on the back of her head or Moms see even in the dark or even that our Christian God sees all.

[ginny]

That's a super point about King Kong, Barbara. All these Zombie things, they are myths, too, and they are everywhere. What do they symbolize, one wonders?  Fear of not being able to deal with the world we live in? All the Japanese destruction movies and monsters like Godzilla.  Voldemort, Star Trek, Star Wars, I bet we could name a million of them.  I really love Japanese destruction movies.

Odysseus's dog was  named Argus, sorry, I thought I put that and I see I didn't.

There are 250 myths in the Metamorphoses, they don't all begin with a rape or a chase or anything like that. Although I still am wondering why all these do at the first. I have a feeling it's what he thought his audience might have expected.

We may be somewhat ready to move on and see the next one, Phaethon, soon.

[JoanK]

Good: I want to see what he does with Phaeton.

Last thought on peacocks: I wonder what they looked like 2000 years ago, when Ovid wrote. They are an example of evolution gone mad: their tails have gotten so big and unwieldy that they can no longer survive in the wild.

there is a suburban neighborhood a few miles from me where wild peacocks live. Stories vary, but apparently they originally escaped from a millionaire estate. Now they are protected: if one of them is perched on your car, or crossing the street in front of you, you just have to wait for it to move. In breeding season, they make loud raucous cries all night long. A resident told me they get no sleep.

http://www.odditycentral.com/travel/california-town-is-home-to-hundreds-of-free-roaming-wild-peacocks.html

[bellamarie]

That is interesting to read the peacock is protected.  The mallard duck is also protected, and every year it seems my inground pool has been a favorite place for mating, and then the mother duck lays her eggs usually in my neighbor's bushes.  We had a real ordeal last year, trying to protect her 13 eggs because some predator would chase her off her nest at night and then take her eggs.  Nature's Nursery told us to not touch the eggs.  None of them survived.  Sad. 

[BarbStAubrey]

I knew Egypt was a much earlier civilization than the Greeks but did not realize how early - it appears the Hieroglyphics were from 3,300 BC where as the Islands of Crete had a population as of 2,011.

In Egypt Isis was worshiped as the ideal wife and mother from the time of the old Kingdom sometime between 2686 BC and 2181 and achieved the status of supreme importance 1550–1070 BC -

Where as the cult worship in the Roman Egyptian Temple to Isis originated in the first century BC. The first enclosed roofed temple sanctuary by the Greeks dedicated to Hera, who is the cause of the Io story and who, according to Ovid became Isis, was built in 800BC.

These dates suggest to me Ovid was doing a little revisionism on history either, attempting to show Roman and Greek presence as more glorious or, out of ignorance to the actual age difference between Egyptian culture and Mediterranean/Aegean Culture.

[PatH]

It looks like it's time to move on to the next story: Phaethon.  Let's start by talking about the first bit:

Bk I:747-764 Phaethon’s parentage
Bk I:765-779 Phaethon sets out for the Palace of the Sun
Bk II:1-30 The Palace of the Sun
Bk II:31-48 Phaethon and his father

[ginny]

The Bronze Age in Greece, the legends of Minos and the Labyrinth, Theseus and Daedalus and Icarus, the palace of Knossos (still standing in ruins  in Crete) and culture of the Minoans date from 3000 BC- 1000 BC.

Founded:    The first settlement dates to about 7000 BC. The first palace dates to 1900 BC.

Abandoned: At some time in Late Minoan IIIC, 1380–1100 BC

Periods:    Neolithic to Late Bronze Age. The first palace was built in the Middle Minoan IA period.

Cultures:     Minoan, Mycenaean

Associated with:     In the Middle Minoan, people of unknown ethnicity termed Minoans; in the Late Minoan, by Mycenaean Greeks

[ginny]

Wonderful idea, Pat! Yes, let's keep intact our thoughts on the somewhat strangled opening bits of Pan and Syrinx, another chase and capture, on Daphne and Apollo and poor Io and step out of the "winter of our discontent" into the glorious dazzling  summer of Phaethon, and the Sun god. (Phaethon is pronounced Fay a ton).

THIS is what we came for, what Ovid is most famous for, the glorious descriptions and word pictures,  and what a bobby dazzler it IS!

What modern applications, what themes present in 2016  can we see in the opening lines in  Book I of the Phaethon story? Right off the bat I can think of a commercial running daily about car keys. Dad, can I borrow the car? And the person asking Dad, to his eyes, appears a child.  Something any parent can relate to. But how are Phaethon's car keys different?

What about wanting to know who your parents are? Is this important today? And what about the little bit of duplicity Phaethon does with his mom?

Parents and children. Car keys...what else do we see in this story while it's still in Book I?

Oh boy, some of the most glorious writing in the universe, lots of plot twists, lots of identifiable emotions (and NO rapes hahaha) and we're off, let's look at the end of Book I!

[PatH]

Once again Ovid manages to intermingle the end of the old story with the beginning of the new.  Io's son Epaphus teases Phaethon about his parentage, and that sets off the series of events that make up this story.

[BarbStAubrey]

thanks for the dates Ginny - are you also than saying that the story of Io is from the Bronze Age - All I could find about the combo Greek and Egyptian was in the first century - Was there a time earlier when the two cultures mixed so that the idea of Io becoming Isis could be an older story? I know there may have been other versions as you said -

I thought the early contact between Greece and Egypt was developed because of the exploits of Alexander the Great - I do remember that Rome had their footprint in northern Africa during the time of Augustus but when that contact first blossomed I can only guess was because of the island of Crete being closer and I thought the culture in Crete with wall paintings of women and bulls earlier than Greek Culture - Did Crete also have the stories of Zeus and Hera? I bet you have a good book or web site that you could suggest that would help put all this is perspective - please share.

[BarbStAubrey]

I've seen this illustration many times and did not know that it was on this container held in the British Museum

And more did not know what Attic red-figure calyx-krater was -

The red-figure technique appeared in Attica in around 530 BC and sounded the death knell of the black-figure technique.

The first ten years were a period of exploration. Then, around the 520s, a group of unique painters known as the "Pioneers" emerged. It included Phintias, Euthymides, and in particular Euphronios. Eclectic, curious, and innovative, they worked with potters like Cachrylion and Euxitheos to form a group of imaginative and audacious precursors who shared their discoveries. Liberated from the rigid frameworks of their predecessors, they filled the space of the vase by painting bodies in more natural postures, giving them volume and introducing foreshortening to create a kind of perspective. The musculature is rendered in precise anatomical detail, thanks to the use of a diluted glaze in light brown tones. The same naturalism characterizes the treatment of the folds of the fabrics. They also invented new vase forms, like the stamnos, the pelike, and the amphora with twisted handles.

[bellamarie]

Isn't it ironic how today, we have Jerry Springer and Maury Povich shows who have the mother, son, and possible baby daddy on the show trying to determine if the child is really the son of so and so.......and look at this story of Phaethon questioning his mother Clymene about his lineage, after being ridiculed by Epaphus. 

Her son was Epaphus, and it's believed
that she gave birth to him from great Jove's seed;(obviously it was through the rape before turned into a cow)
he shares his mother's shrines in many cities.
The peer of Epaphus in temperament
and age was Phoebus' son, young Phaethon.
Once, Phaethon__so proud to have the Sun
as father__claimed that he was better born
than Epaphus, who met that claim with scorn:
"Fool, do you think that all your mother says
is true__those lying tales that swelled your head?"
And Phaethon blushed: ashamed, the boy was forced
to check his scorn, he hurried off at once
to tell Clymene of that calumny:
"And, mother, what will cause you still more pain,
is this:  I, who am frank, so prone to pride,
was tongue-tied.  I am mortified__ashamed
that I could be insulted in this way__
yet not rebut the charge!  So, if in truth
my lineage is heavenly, provide
the proof of my high birth, and justify
my claim to have a father in the sky!"

Ginny,

Oh boy, some of the most glorious writing in the universe, lots of plot twists, lots of identifiable emotions (and NO rapes hahaha) and we're off, let's look at the end of Book I!

There may be no more rape, but now we deal with certainly the repercussions of the rape, since it does seem poor Epaphus has been ridiculed by Phaethon. Is Ovid showing us he thinks less of Epaphus because he knows Epaphus was conceived out of Jove raping his mother Io? Then you have Epaphus insulting Phaethon, making Phaethon doubt his own lineage, and mother's word.  I find this ending quite sad. 

Phaethon goes to his mother Clymene and she swears it is true, but she tells him to go ask his father Apollo for the proof he needs.

It reminds me of the Springer/Povich show having to reveal the DNA tests at the end of the show.  Ughh.... then and now.... Who's yo Daddy?   

[bellamarie]

Ginny, I think some of your post is revealing parts of Book ll with the chariot/ car keys.  Are we planning to go beyond Book l?

[ginny]

I absolutely love those red figure and black figure kraters and they are absolutely fascinating, thank you for finding, that, Barbara. The British Museum has some wonderful sections online on them with some of the most spectacular examples imaginable.  Here's one from the Met: Department of Greek and Roman Art. “Athenian Vase Painting: Black- and Red-Figure Techniques.” In Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History. New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 2000–. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/vase/hd_vase.htm  If you click on the number on the bottom right of the top illustration  you'll see MANY fabulous pieces.



Barbara, no, sorry not to be clear, I was not attempting to date Io, that story but rather to show the age of the myths in  that area.

For instance, for succinctness I like the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature. They say on this topic, which I think kind of ties in your Greek and Egyptian ideas:

"Crete: a Mediterranean island to the south east of Greece and the south west of Asia Minor. Its position makes it a natural stepping stone from Europe to Egypt, Cyprus and Asia.  Holding themselves an intermediate position in early times, between the ancient civilization of the near and Middle East and barbarian /Europe, it was well suited to become the site of the earliest European high civilization."

1. Minoan civilization: This was the name given by
Si Arthur Evans to the Bronze Age culture in Crete (c.3000-1000 B.C.00

2. The beginning of the Early Minoan period (c.3000-2200 B.C.) which succeeded  a long Neolithic Age marked by a striking new style of pottery, indicating the arrival of a new (and non Greek) people from western Asia, from Anatolia perhaps, or a Semitic people from Syria or Palestine. The end of this period marked the start of the great period of Minoan civilization (c.2200-1450 B.C.)...Here is where we find Linear A)....this culture (I am abbreviating a huge bit of stuff) gradually pervaded the Aegean area, especially the Greek mainland. However Knossos and other Cretan sites suffered further destruction in 1500 B.C., in consequence it has been thought of the great volcanic explosion of Thera."

"Knossos seems to have restored her former prosperity in 1450-1400 B.C.  and a new influence became evident in pottery and writing (Linear B was found at this level) which is also known from several sites on the Greek mainland."

"The  language of Linear B has been identified as an earlier form of Greek, different from the language of the earlier scripts, and probably indicating that the rulers were by this time Mycenaean Greeks from the mainland...."

As far as Greek religion goes we recall that Homer  and Hesiod were considered the fathers of Greek religion about 800 B.C. but only because they wrote it down. The tradition up to that time was the oral tradition so in fact those myths may have been centuries maybe thousands of years old.

In the section on Greek religion it talks about Crete, the bulls, and the myths which suggest some kind of bull cult. "There are representations, (remember the conditions of the ruins), of numerous goddesses, possibly variants on one Mother or Cybele type goddess, many female goddesses.  Linear B has revealed on mainland Greece the names of many gods we are familiar  with, which indicate a polytheistic system.  The Linear B tablets include Zeus, Poseidon, Enyalios, Hera, Ares (Mars)  or Hermes, and Dionysus, and many more.

   "Correspondences with later Greek religion exist side by side with deities and practices otherwise unknown, clearly the religion of the Classical period was rooted in that of the Minoan-Mycenaean age, but with important differences."

It's a big subject, and  my typing is not up to it,  and your know yourself it makes a lot more sense when you can read it yourself.  I think if you read The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature  you would get a lot out of it  because it sorts it all out succinctly, tho this is a huge section, and taken up again  under Greek religion.  At least if you read it you know what is thought to be currently accurate.

But there are tons of good books on this subject.

---The Bull of Minos: The Great Discoveries of Ancient Greece by Leonard Cottrell. 

---- The Palace of Minos: A Comparative Account of the Successive Stages of the Early Cretan Civilization as Illustrated by the Discoveries at Knossos by Arthur Evans

---A. Brown, Arthur Evans and the Palace of Minos (Oxford 1983)

----J.K. Papadopoulos, “Inventing the Minoans: Archaeology, Modernity & the Quest
for European Identity,” Journal of Mediterranean Archaeology 18, 2005, 87-149
Greek Mythology:  Discovering Greek Mythology (Ancient Greece, Titans, Gods, Zeus, Hercules) by Martin R. Phillips and on Kindle for 99 cents.(April 11, 2014) 

----The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature

--Schliemann's Discoveries of the Ancient World by Carl Schuchhardt and Eugenie Sellers

    Schliemann, who discovered Troy,  is now much discredited but the man who announced to the world "I have looked upon the face of Agamemnon" is worth a read. I guess his is a cautionary tale about the dangers of an enthusiast in the world of archaeology.

---From the Land of the Labyrinth: Minoan Crete, 3000-1100 BC
by Giorgos Rethemiotakis and Nota Dimopoulou-Rethemiotaki

[BarbStAubrey]

Grand - just Grand - thanks Ginny - I get so curious about things that I read and ancient history especially Egyptian history never grabbed me - the pictures of their gods and goddesses turned me off - all the Tut stiff that was the hottest ticket in town a few years ago just bored me and I never got caught in the whirl - to tie it into Greek and Roman ancient history fills me with all sorts of questions. Thanks for the book list, now I have some stepping stones. 

[ginny]

I'm glad those seem to be interesting. I think Oxford has another one I have long wanted, The Oxford History of Greece & the Hellenistic World by John Boardman, and another one of the Roman world. They have been extremely expensive but these aren't.

 Surely these can't be the same books; the ones I'm thinking of are about as expensive as a trip.

[JoanK]

What a job you have done, GINNY to summarize so much for us. I'm truly in awe of how old and long-lasting some of these stories and ideas are. Not only the 2000 years between Ovid and us, but so many years before! will anything of our 21st century culture survive that long.

No wonder these stories sometimes seem strange. Yet, there is a reason they continue to be repeated. My grandchildren are reading the current modern version of these stories (minus the rapes, I hope) and are just as fascinated by them as I was as a child.

[PatH]

If there's a child you want to get hooked on the Greek myths, I recommend d'Aulaire's Book of Greek Myths, by Ingri d'Aulaire and Edgar Parin d'Aulaire.  It's a good job of retelling the stories, with wonderful illustrations.

http://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943#reader_0440406943

The cover will be recognizable, and if you scroll down in Amazon's sample, you'll find some of the story of Io.  (They say Hermes/Mercury bored Argus to sleep and death with his story.)

Amazon says ages 10 and up, but I think my children were younger when they read it.

They have an equally good book of Norse myths.

[ginny]

Bellamarie, I am sorry I missed your posts, you must have posted while I was trying to type all that, not a good typist.

Poor Epaphus?

Isn't Epaphus the tormentor picking at Phaethon about his parentage?  To the point that Phaethon turns red?

Epaphus to me, (and I could be nuts) is the epitome of the school bully.  2000 years ago or not.

There was no rape with Clymene and  Apollo and although married to another man she seemed to have several children by other men, the myths vary.

I have never watched those programs but  I do know that many adopted children into perfectly normal homes would like to know who their birth parents are and they often spend a lot of time trying to find out. In a way, isn't that what Genealogy is? Wanting to find out your true roots?

The country singer  married to Faith Hill, is it Tim McGraw found out his own father was Tug McGraw, the baseball player, I think this story is more for our time than we may want to realize.

I hope we're going to read Phaethon's story and maybe go on a bit to the good stuff? There are some wonderful stories we encounter every day, Narcissus, Midas,  we could vote on them, there are some moving majestic descriptions. I hope we can all go on a little bit?

Some of these myths in the Middle Ages were used to teach  theology, believe it or not.

[ginny]

Whose translation is that, Bellamarie? Some of the things said there are not in my copy of Ovid?

[ginny]

Thank you, Joan!

Pat, yes that's a great book. Does anybody remember the book for children on Archaeology which has turned out a lot of archaeologists? I can't recall the name, it's an old book.

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow hate to keep coming back to this subject but happened upon a site from a facebook friend and all of a sudden a new light-

I am thinking that having the male rape a women is showing the women to be virtuous - that regardless her conniving, manipulating, hiding secrets, feeling anger or revenge if she was raped she was virtuous to the socially approved place held by women.

We know women had no direct power except in the weaving room and maybe in the kitchen - there were  temples to women goddesses in which young women perform rituals and dance and these women are often virgins. But as a gender they were simply something for the male to pursue - we know this because of female genital mutilation that prevents her from having any sexual feelings.

Wives were not meant to satisfy the sexual titillation of the male but only to bear children - we know Pederasty in ancient Greece was a socially acknowledged erotic relationship between an adult male and a younger male  usually in his teens. We read in the Kite Runner, in Afghanistan young boys are still the means for sexual satisfaction rather than wives. These practices are ancient.

Here is the rundown on the early history of female genital mutilation.

While the term infibulation has its roots in ancient Rome, where female slaves had fibulae (broochs) pierced through their labia to prevent them from getting pregnant, a widespread assumption places the origins of female genital cutting in pharaonic Egypt. This would be supported by the contemporary term "pharaonic circumcision."

"This was not common practice in ancient Egypt. There is no physical evidence in mummies, neither there is anything in the art or literature. It probably originated in sub-saharan Africa, and was adopted here later on," Salima Ikram, professor of Egyptology at the American University in Cairo.

Historically, the first mention of male and female circumcision appears in the writings by the Greek geographer Strabo, who visited Egypt around 25 B.C.

Female genital cutting (FGC), also known as female circumcision or female genital mutilation, is an ancient practice that predates the Abrahamic religions.

"One of the customs most zealously observed among the Egyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females," Strabo wrote in his 17-volume work Geographica.

A Greek papyrus dated 163 B.C. mentioned the operation being performed on girls in Memphis, Egypt, at the age when they received their dowries, supporting theories that FGM originated as a form of initiation of young women. 

This practice was before Ovid - how early the practice we do not know - we do know that reading the Odyssey, his wife had no power outside her home - and even some of the goddesses have less power than the gods - most of ancient civilizations were patriarchal and would have no clue that their attitude towards women was anything but correct. These myths may have shown women how they were supposed to behave.

We also know that men and women did not marry for love - Plato believed love was a wonderful emotion that led men to behave honorably. But the Greek philosopher was referring not to the love of women, "such as the meaner men feel," but to the love of one man for another.

In her book The History of Marriage, Stephanie Coontz writes;

"The Greeks thought lovesickness was a type of insanity, a view that was adopted by medieval commentators in Europe. In the Middle Ages the French defined love as a "derangement of the mind" that could be cured by sexual intercourse, either with the loved one or with a different partner... In Europe, during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, adultery became idealized as the highest form of love among the aristocracy.

According to the Countess of Champagne, it was impossible for true love to "exert its powers between two people who are married to each other... for centuries, noblemen and kings fell in love with courtesans rather than the wives they married for political reasons... This sharp distinction between love and marriage was common among the lower and middle classes as well. Many of the songs and stories popular among peasants in medieval Europe mocked married love.

About two centuries ago Western Europe and North America developed a whole set of new values about the way to organize marriage and sexuality, and many of these values are now spreading across the globe."

The color white has been symbolic for purity and when Io is returned she is dressed in White.

I am thinking that for the continuation of humans given the social mores where women were removed from the desire of sex it would be a man who called the shots even during lovemaking much less the chase. And so it would all be as a rape.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, 

There was no rape with Clymene and  Apollo and although married to another man she seemed to have several children by other men, the myths vary.

Ginny, you may have misunderstood my post. I was wondering if Ovid was indicating that Epaphus was a lesser born, because he was conceived from Jove raping Io.  Why else would Ovid have Phaethon make the snide remark to Epaphus?

Ginny,

Epaphus to me, (and I could be nuts) is the epitome of the school bully.  2000 years ago or not.

What seems to have started the entire tit for tat with these two, was when Phaethon said to Epaphus:
Once, Phaethon__so proud to have the Sun
as father__claimed that he was better born
than Epaphus, who met that claim with scorn:

So in actuality it was Phaethon who initiated the cruelty, and then Epaphus turned around and made Phaethon doubt his lineage.  I didn't see Epaphus as a bully, he was in fact insulted my Phaethon, and in turn insulted him back.

I don't watch Springer or Povich either, but I do know their main purpose is "Who's Yo Daddy."  Dr. Phil, which I do watch does not have the fighting and insanity on his show, but he does do paternity tests to reveal the identity of parentage. 

Of course everyone should and would want to know their genealogy, my point was as far back as Ovid's poem, to now, you have children questioning their own father, being lied to, and insulted by another child.

Barb, We were posting at the same time....

I am thinking that having the male rape a women is showing the women to be virtuous - that regardless her conniving, manipulating, hiding secrets, feeling anger or revenge if she was raped she was virtuous to the socially approved place held by women.

I will have to agree to disagree with you.  Ovid shows the reader the horrible feeling she is feeling while she is fleeing from the rapist, and he goes to the extreme to have the goddess transformed to prevent her from the rape.  If it were virtuous, there would be no need for this.  It is seen as a wrongful act, or Jove would not have tried to hide it from his wife. It is adultery, not his right as a male.  It would take a stronger argument, and stretch of the imagination for me to be convinced otherwise. Ovid would not have to use the word, "rape" if it were anything other than that.

By the mere definition of rape, it is against a person's consent.:    Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration perpetrated against a person without that person's consent.

In this and many other articles you will find the same findings and results to Ovid's books throughout the centuries:

Even the Metamorphoses, his most famous work, which details the transformations of various mythical figures for a variety of reasons, contains many erotic events including rape and various forms of forbidden love that have been considered immoral.  Ultimately, the risqué nature of Ovid’s works has led to great controversy over a lengthy period, and Ars Amatoria may have the longest history of censorship of any book from its initial banning by Augustus to its interdiction in modern America.

http://web.colby.edu/ovid-censorship/censorship/history-of-ovids-banned-books-from-antiquity-to-present/

[ginny]

On the fibula business, the Rogue Classicist has asked for citation in ancient texts to prove this? Nobody has answered in 4 years but it sure has taken over the internet.

What is the source of this rumor, Barbara, if you don't mind asking the person who is perpetuating it?

The Rogue Classicist asks:

    "While the term infibulation has its roots in ancient Rome,..."


"Do we have an ancient source that mentions this? Or is this another case of a Latin word leading someone, somewhere to infer that the practice must have been Roman?"

The source will need to be in  an ancient document.

[ginny]

Bellamarie, may I ask again what translation you are quoting? I don't see that in the Latin, that's why I ask. I can't find Lombardo.

Why else would Ovid have Phaethon make the snide remark to Epaphus?  I don't  know that he made that remark. The translator's name might help.

Children are not adults, especially in the school yard when being taunted....if Phaethon were angry at Epaphus's taunts, he might have said all kinds of things. Worse things.

to now, you have children questioning their own father, being lied to, and insulted by another child.

I don't see Phaethon questioning his own father, where do you see this? He wants proof the sun god is his father, what's wrong with that? He's questioning his mother, give me a sign. He goes and ASKS the sun god, she tells him where he can find him, to give him a sign.

I think whoever you are reading may not be accurate. But of course my Lombardo has disappeared so I would like to see what others say on this.

[BarbStAubrey]

As I have said there is the current views on life and trying to decipher the ancient views - I understand Bellamarie you are more comfortable with the current definition of rape and that is fine - I am still exploring and learning what the ancient view could be based upon that we miss today - there is NEVER in Senior Learn the need for agreement - exploring is Paramount for me rather than labeling anything right or wrong - it all happens - and to better understand what I am reading that is of an ancient time with morals based on a different understanding of the universe and human nature is an exploration that seems worthy to me...

There are many who are mostly newer graduates who have lived when women have gained the right to assert themselves openly, that have analyzed these stories eking out, some we learn without a good understanding of the ancient Greek language, a version that includes our idea of defining rape -

I see them as similar to those who now prefer to put attention on another aspect of the King Kong stories because today race relations is being explored - that does not make the early take out of the King Kong story wanting - the story did not change - but the movie showing the story back before WWII was of a different time with different fears and different race relations - the same with these myths -

And so to me the ideas of today about rape are old hat - we all know them and we all know rape to be described differently than was the definition used by the Greeks - We know today rape is called out as a serious crime and for those of us who have been raped we are dealing with the modern view of what happened - However, these stories could not be high on the list of classics to be studied if they were simply about today's explanation of rape - there has to be something more or they would be buried as Aunt Jemima's Pancake Ad and Black Face costume for whites rather than being studied in Universities.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ginny give me a bit I have to research my history of sites visited and find again the information.