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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online beginning Oct.1
Please Post below if you can join us!
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Some things to think about: Chapters 1-6
1. There are two examples in these early pages of Persuasion that changes people's lives. What do you think of them? Who instigates them? Can you find more examples?
2. Austen is known for her sharp characterizations. Which of the characters in this opening section seem most true to life to you? Which the least? Do you feel you have met any in real life?
3. Anne, the middle child is ignored, put down, and expected to serve the others. Why? Do you feel this reflects anything in Austen's real life? How do you feel about her response to this?
4. How did Captain Wentworth become rich? What is Austen's treatment of the wider events of the day? Does this affect how you feel about the book?
5. Austen often indicates people's character by their manners. What examples can you find here?
6. Anne Elliot goes from the family estate, Kellynch Hall, to her sister's cottage at Uppercross, and the Musgrave house there. How are the environments different? How are the three sisters different?
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
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Welcome to the gentle world of Jane Austen, where the stirring events of early 19th century England provide only a distant background to a quieter sphere of privilege -- although not necessarily of wealth and privilege. Quieter, but not less dramatic than the noisier outside world. For beneath the concerns of who will dance with whom, lie the same eternal questions of how to survive and how best to live ones life.
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Welcome to all. This is one of my favorite books, and I'm delighted to have a chance to share it with friends. All of us, whether we're reading it for the first time or the tenth, will see new things and get new ideas from each other. This is going to be fun.
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What enticing introductions to Persuasion! I've read Persuasion several times and have seen several of the TV adaptations. I'm looking forward to reading it again and participating in the discussion with everyone.
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WELCOME MARCIE! Another Austenfile? Yes, Austen repays many rereadings.
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oh yes. I love Jane Austen!
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Ahhh, Persuasion! Count me in! I read it only once - and that time, I read it way too fast. Remember when we did Karen Joy Fowler's Jane Austen Book Club? Each of the six chapters a modernized story of each of Austen's books. We read one chapter of Fowler's book a week - and during those six weeks, I read the corresponding Austen novel along with Fowler's version. It was fun - but way too fast.
Count me in! I'm so happy to see this discussion in the hands of our two very Austenized discussion leaders - PatH and JoanK. Aren't we so fortunate?
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I expect to be here too. I haven't read it, but have seen the TV movie.
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JOANP, FRY: WELCOME WELCOME! This will be fun!
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Just ordered Persuasion. Free on Kindle. I haven't read this book since my college days; so am looking forward to reading/discussing it again.
Sally
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Oct will be a busy time for me, but i'm going to try to join you. Going to the library today, so will get the book and maybe the movie. Glad to know i can get it on my ipad - my NEW ipad2 just came this morning!!!
Jean
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SALAN, JEAN: WELCOME!
Yes, I have it free too. Isn't technology wonderful! JEAN: don't get so busy playing with your new toy that you forget to post in SeniorLearn! :D
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Good advice Joan, i love my new toy! :)
This article about a JA ring came in my women's history newsletter this morning. Check out the "related stories" links at the bottom of the story.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-23664433
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This one is interesting as well. Jane Austen will be on the new 10 pound note.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23424289
Apparently, England changes the figures on their notes frequently. I wonder how long the current figures have been on the US money?
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I just so happen to have a compilation of Austen's books, 4 in one, (Pride And Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Emma and Persuasion) My first time ever reading Austen is when I purchased this book and read Sense and Sensibility. I must say she sure does use an awful lot of words to describe a man, that I suppose I could condense into just one or two words. :) It did take me awhile to adapt to the style of her writing and speaking in the book. Keeping the characters straight as to who was who, and who went with whom was a bit of a challenge for me also. I finally got a pen and paper and started taking notes. I thoroughly enjoyed Marianne and John Willoughby's relationship and found myself laughing out loud so many times in the book. I am looking forward to reading Persuasion and discussing it with our group. Count me in!
Jean, A new ipad2!!! How exciting!! I began teaching Apple computers to grades K - 8 in my Catholic school back in 1983. My principal, Sr. Myra and I began our very first computer lab. We called it our baby. I taught for 15 yrs., and love technology of all sorts. I just went to see the new movie that came out this summer "Jobs" and had also read a book on Steve Jobs, prior to seeing the movie. The movie was very accurate and I was as thrilled to watch Steve Jobs excitement as he saw the first Apple computers come out of their boxes, as I was when I would get the new Apple computers for my lab. I have yet to own an ipad, even though I HAD to have one of the first ipods when they first came out, and believe it or not mine still works! I got my iphone a few years ago and am hoping to get an ipad when I can justify it to my hubby. ;) He knows how much I love technology, but the cost still isn't justifiable since I just purchased a new laptop last year. Ughhh....please let me know how you like your new toy!!! One of Steve Jobs goals in making the ipod, ipad, and iphone was to get people to LOVE them so much so they could not part from them, or put them down. I would say, mission accomplished!! I only wish he could have lived another decade, so I could see what he would have come up with next. :(
Can't wait for Oct 1st to begin the discussion.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, it's great you'll be with us. I think you will enjoy it. It's not as funny as Sense and Sensibility--more serious and thoughtful--but just as likeable. She has a wonderful way of painting her characters with deadly accuracy.
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I got an iPad mini for travel; I'm using it now, sitting in JoanK's living room. I still have issues with the touch screen. My fingertips are too dry or something. And there is no manual, and I only got a quick ten minute orientation in using it, I'm still figuring out how to do things. But I like it, and it fits easily in my purse.
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I envy you iPad owners! Pat, there are manuals for the iPad online. See http://support.apple.com/manuals/
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Bellmarie - i am not a great techie person, in fact when we got our cd player, i said "I'm not buying this unless you promise there is not something newer coming out in 6 months!" However, we were celebrating our grandson's birthday in Aug 2010, the whole family was here and the first ipad's commercial came on tv. I said, "now that's something i might like to have." On Labor Day our kids were here for a cookout and our dgt said to our son, "why don't you get that package out of your car." He came back and handed me an Apple bag, and inside was an ipad - first generation! It was my birthday present from the whole family, even though my birthday wasn't til Oct!!! Might be the best present i ever got. I have LOVED it! It's like having a library on my lap, not just the books, but all the world's information!!! I don't have an iphone, but i can text and receive messages from our kids who have iphones. They won't answer phone CALLS immediately, but they do respond to text msgs quickly.
Our first computer in the 80's was an Apple IIE because my husband was vp at a college which had ordered them and we could piggyback on their order for a good price. So i learned my first computer skills and commands that made SO much sense on that pc. Then i went to work for Dept of Army and had to learn IBM's commands which made NO sense! ;D
So, now i have the second generation ipad, primarily because it was such a good buy and it has a keyboard in the case and a stylus - which i love, not so many finger marks on the screen - and earphones and a car charger and is thinner and lighter weight. This one was my birthday present to myself!
Bellmarie - check the Apple store for refurbished 1st or second generation ipads. Even new ipad2's are $399 at the Apple Store. I got this package from QVC. The package was $499. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a good price on just the ipad. Keep your eyes on them. I'm not a QVC buyer, but i just happened to see them pitching this, like it was made to be. TIC ;D
Jean
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Jean, How wonderful of your family to surprise you with an ipad for an early birthday present! It would indeed be the best present ever!! Apple targeted the education field and was a huge success, their format was so easy and simple that even my Kindergartners could manipulate the mouse and do the educational programs I taught. I attended many workshops and presentations throughout my years teaching computers, and Apple cornered the schools and gave them contracts to where they could actually rent the computers for a certain amount of years, and then renew their contracts by replacing the old ones with the newer models. One time I needed to call a tech support guy out and he seriously sat there and gave me a complete instructional demonstration on how to trouble shoot and repair a computer. That served to be invaluable to our school, since I no longer needed to call for tech support, saving our school hundreds of dollars. Now, I just wish I would have followed the advice of that tech guy many moons ago and purchased stock in Apple back then. I sometimes shudder at how ignorant youth can be. If only I could go back to 1983 and know then what I know now. Like my adult children tried telling me back then, "Mom you have a skill very few have, not even our High School teachers know as much about computers as you do, so why are you still working at Regina Coeli elementary making so little of an income with no benefits when you could be in a high school or college teaching computer classes." I did a workshop at a local college and taught basic computers to High School teachers and didn't even get paid for that. Back then I was just honored the Diocese chose me. Ughhhh......what's that they say about "hindsight?" :'(
$499 is not a bad price for your package deal. Thank you for the info. I have the first nook color and am able to have my library of books on that, and it does everything a computer does except.....word processing. My hope is to own an ipad that has word processing apps. Once word processing/office apps are available...NO MORE Laptop for me. Although I have not been able to part with my mouse even with the laptop. It's like a baby giving up her pacifier. I refuse to wean myself of the ease and comfort of this mouse. I like the idea of PatH's mini travel ipad. My nook color is the same size as a Kindle Fire, which is big enough to manipulate but smaller and lighter than a laptop. As I get older I do resist change and learning new techie things, and just programming my Gateway Home entertainment with Buckeye Cable causes me anxiety. But if we are going to live among the ever changing world of technology, we must jump in and keep our feet wet. I resisted PC forever because of teaching Apple computers, and once I opened my in home day care and continued to teach to my day care kids, I finally broke down and bought a PC. Oh my the difference was a nightmare for me, now all I have ever owned is HP.
You have definitely gotten me excited to own an ipad one day.
Ciao for now~
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I didn't even mention that it has a camera which takes pretty good pictures and video w/ sound! :D
Are you sure there is not an app for word processing?
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My mini takes very good pictures too (no flash) but the ones it takes of me are justice without mercy.
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I have not heard of any Word Processing apps for the ipad as of yet. I was talking to my Verizon agent and he said he is sure they will in the near future. I had a great idea, they could make the next ipad with word processing and call it ipute! I told my hubby I am going to put a patent on that name and send it to Apple.
Wow a camera and video on both the reg and mini ipad. So I would not have to carry around my digital camera any more. That would be great especially with no flash. PatH, You are beautiful and trust me, its ALL you!
I started reading Pride and Prejudice today to warm up to Jane Austen's writing style. This book is cracking me up. Elizabeth sure is a stinker and oh Mr. Darcy, who does he think he is fooling? lol
Ciao for now~
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Here is a link to Open Word Processor for the iPad
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/open-word-processor-document/id523501455?mt=8
Here is a 2012 article on other word processors that work on an iPad.
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/top_apps_for_word_processing_on_the_ipad
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Thanks for those links Marcie, my dgt was just talking about what she could do with documents on her work ipad.
Jean
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Oh my heavens!!! Thank you so much for providing this information Marcie. I will have to go check these out and have a talk with my Verizon friend/agent. I fear he has been discouraging me away from Apple products by misinforming me that my iphone does not have the google speak app, like the Droid when in fact it does. With technology changing on a daily basis, I guess I better stay more up to date. My grand daughter just this morning showed me at the volleyball game that my iphone will accept the ios 7 app that just came out yesterday.
So, now an ipad may be in my near future!!!
Ciao for now~
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I've been trying to think of what foods we can munch on while we read Persuasion. The Austen characters don't seen to have tea (the meal, not the beverage) but they have something called "nuncheon" (sp?). Does anyone know what that is?
Come to think of it, Austen doesn't talk about food much. But that doesn't mean that we can't enjoy some.
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Thought I would look up the kind of foods that were served during Regency England and found this fascinating site - the history of foods http://www.foodtimeline.org/index.html
Looks like we would be safe suggesting lady fingers as a sweet.
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That's great, Barb. From your link, I went on, and found three Jane Austen cookbooks --including "Tea with Jane Austen."
It's not on kindle, but "The Jane Austen Book of Manners" is, and I got a sample. Expect some tips from me in the future!
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I was in Bath once - where Jane Austen lived for a while. A number of her novels are set in Bath - Persuasion may have been one of them. I went back to Bath to find this picture of the unforgettable Sally Lunn bun -
(http://www.thefreshloaf.com/files/u6794/sally%20lunn%20bun,%20bath%20england.jpg)
"Sally Lunn's is one of the oldest houses in Bath (c.1482) and serves the most famous local delicacy; the Original 'Sally Lunn' Bun. According to legend, Sally Lunn, a French refugee, arrived 1680 and established her bakery. Today Sally Lunn's serve a menu based on the world famous 'Sally Lunn' Bun during the day and are open for fine English food in the evening."
If we can't get to Bath in time to taste the bun, I did find the recipe - surprised it isn't kept secret...quite simple though...Jane must have slippped in for a bun - or two!
Look - here's Jane in the Sally Lunn Bun shop (http://www.sallylunns.co.uk/history/jane-austen/)!
Did you find this recipe in the cook books, Joan?
Sally Lunn Buns
(Makes 18 )
4 packed cups (20 ounces) unbleached all-purpose flour
1/3 cup sugar
2 1/4 teaspoons (1 package) instant yeast
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
1 stick (1/2 cup) unsalted butter
4 large eggs
1 cup milk
In medium bowl ( use a 2-quart glass measure), whisk together flour, sugar, yeast and salt. In small saucepan, melt butter.
With electric mixer, beat the eggs until fluffy and pale lemon yellow, about 5 minutes. Add the milk and beat until smooth, about 1 minute. By hand with a dough whisk or wooden spoon, add the flour mixture to the egg mixture in three additions, alternating with the melted butter and beginning and ending with the flour mixture. Cover with lid or plastic wrap. Place in refrigerator for at least 24 hours and up to three days.
About 2 1/4 hours before serving time, remove dough from refrigerator. Stir down the dough, just a few strokes, with a wooden spoon. With a 1/4-cup measure or scoop sprayed with cooking spray, scoop dough into well-greased or cooking-sprayed standard muffin tins. Lightly butter a sheet of plastic wrap and place, buttered side down, over the buns. Let rise until puffy but likely not doubled in volume, about 1 3/4 hours. During last 15 minutes, preheat oven to 375 degrees.
Uncover buns. Bake at 375 degrees about 25 minutes, or until golden brown. Transfer tins to wire racks and let cool for 5 minutes. Turn the buns out of the tins onto the racks and serve warm or continue to cool before storing.
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What a marvelous inviting photo - the white fine linen cloth makes me want to pull out one of mine and get busy baking now that it is a bit cooler - I bet it has been 40 or maybe even 50 years since I made a Sally Lunn.
Tip I learned the hard way - if a recipe is in a cookbook published before 1985 than be sure to find and use Cane Sugar since most of the sugar available is now made from corn and when cooking or baking it liquefies differently requiring a different proportion of flour.
There is also an advantage to using cake flour - for the last 100 years or so they usually bleach cake flour white with Chlorine Gas that should be listed on the side of the box - this process will allow the flour batter more rise and it will better distribute more evenly the butter or other fats in the recipe.
Seldom is chlorine gas used with all purpose flour - there are several ingredients that will do the job of whitening the flour including Ascorbic Acid or Peroxide or Potassium that oxidizes the grain, as in aging it getting rid of the natural yellow color. These whitening ingredients do not help or hurt a old recipe.
For awhile I was collecting old cookbooks that before 1900 were often a give away by an insurance company or printed up to be given when you purchased a black iron stove. Till I learned the differences in basic food stuff my trials turned an afternoon of high flying enthusiasm into dismal disappointments.
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I can just imagine us fine, ladies and gents in our book club sitting down at the wonderful table enjoying our buns and conversation. Thank you JoanP for such a lovely picture to prelude our discussion. Since the weather has gotten cooler in Ohio I have been making pumpkin recipes I have gotten off Facebook and Pintrest. Made some yummy pumpkin filled crescent rolls for a family/friend party. A great hit!
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Oh Drool! Have a heart. I actually am trying to lose a little weight now that I have a little app for my Kindle to keep track. The Sally Lunn buns look absolutely delicious. I didn't know she from Bath.
Bath: That is were Mom and Dad first met. She was working as a maid at a hotel there. They discovered each other while walking along the Promenade. If she ever told us at which hotel she was employed, I surely don't remember. I've been looking at photos of Bath. What an interesting place.
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Bellamarie, I really envy you, reading Pride and Prejudice for the first time. But it's also good reading it for the tenth time, and more, so I hope your compilation is a hardback. It really is funny. Persuasion is more sober, but almost as good.
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Frybabe, we were posting at the same time. That's fascinating, how your parents met. Which one was Welsh? Or were both of them?
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Pulled Persuasion off the shelf!
Loved Bath -- ate lunch at the restaurant near the baths. Lovely piano music
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Mom was Welsh.
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PatH, I have to admit this book club has enriched me, and introduced me to many classics for the first time. I feel like a baby chick among all you seasoned, intellects, and I am picking up all your little pieces of feed and nibbling on them. So one day I can boast of knowledge and familiarity as all of you. I have always been a hopeless romantic, so I fear I spent way too many years reading Danielle Steel novels and so many romantic or mystery authors. Yes, my compilation of the 4 books in one is a hard cover, that I will cherish them, and hope my four grand daughters will treasure and read one day.
I am also reading The Good Earth with the book club and when I get too depressed or sad with our chapters, I stop and pick up Pride & Prejudice and allow myself the humor of Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy's banter back and forth.
Frybabe, How wonderful to hear your parents met in Bath. Sounds romantic!
Ciao for now~
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Spent a whole day in Bath.
Fascinating place. Austen's residence was on a lovely street.
Read the book and saw the movie but ,like an old friend, I will be happy to make our acquaintance even deeper.
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I always thought this was one of the sadder stories among the group. She does not seem to have a champion in her corner except the man she believed she had to refuse who quietly and tentatively remained in her corner. Responsibility was a sad life.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Some things to think about: Chapters 1-6
1. There are two examples in these early pages of Persuasion that changes people's lives. What do you think of them? Who instigates them? Can you find more examples?
2. Austen is known for her sharp characterizations. Which of the characters in this opening section seem most true to life to you? Which the least? Do you feel you have met any in real life?
3. Anne, the middle child is ignored, put down, and expected to serve the others. Why? Do you feel this reflects anything in Austen's real life? How do you feel about her response to this?
4. How did Captain Wentworth become rich? What is Austen's treatment of the wider events of the day? Does this affect how you feel about the book?
5. Austen often indicates people's character by their manners. What examples can you find here?
6. Anne Elliot goes from the family estate, Kellynch Hall, to her sister's cottage at Uppercross, and the Musgrave house there. How are the environments different? How are the three sisters different?
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
http://www.early-dance.de/en/whois/289-elegant-arts-society |
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Here's a funny coincidence - and it is strictly coincidence. Though Jane Austen did spend some time in Bath, she also visited and attended dances at the Assembly Room in another village on the coast called Lyme Regis. Persuasion is also set in Lyme Regis. Here comes the funny coincidence. We selected Tracy Chevalier's Remarkable Creatures for the Book Club Online selection here in November. Where do you think this story is set? During this same period as Persuasion?
It seems that author Tracy Chevalier channelled Jane Austen as she did Vermeer's Girl with a Pearl Earring. This is going to be such fun!
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Fascinating and wonderful - what fun to follow up with another story during the same times in a different setting - I thought the story was later but so much more fun to learn that it was at the same time as Jane Austin's stories.
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It's the same setting, but a slightly later time. Persuasion takes place during the Napoleonic wars, early 1800s. Mary Anning, the fossil hunter in Remarkable Creatures, was born in 1799, so was a teenager at the time, though I think she had already started her fossil hunting. Lyme is the setting for only a small part of Persuasion, but we can imagine Mary Anning as one of the unidentified people on the beach, and we can compare Austen's description to Chevalier's. It's a total coincidence; no one was thinking of that when we were suggesting books and voting. I've only read a bit of Remarkable Creatures so far, but I think we'll get a lot of description of Lyme.
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I read an anecdote concerning a visit Jane made to Lyme Regis in 1803 or 1804. She would have been in her upper 20's at the time. She paid a visit to the cabinetmaker in town, and walked out at the exurbitant price he was asking fora cabinet or a bookcase. This is exactly what happened when Elizabeth Philpot visited Mary Anning's fathers shop in Tracy Chevalier's story.
Yes, it was a coincidence the two books were chosen back to back in the last vote. I'm curious. Did anyone know?
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Well I certainly didn't know. I knew of Mary Anning, but thought of her as being 20 or 30 years later, and didn't remember where on the coast she lived.
As we will see, Austen's description of Lyme in Persuasion show her fondness for the place,
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Very possible that Tracy Chevalier wove her fictional tale around the actual Mary Anning', who lived in Lyme Regis 20 years before.
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Well I sure had no idea - in fact while reading the first bit I thought the time frame for Remarkable...was around the time of Dickens. This is spooky and to think it was two of 6 voted on.
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I never thought about where she was fossil hunting either. I mostly assume that most fossil hunting were from Dover north.
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Well, we should really feel at home in that time and place by the end of these two books.
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I've put the first week's schedule in the heading. There are 24 chapters; we'll take the first 6 for October 1-7 and see how it goes. We may decide to speed up a bit later as we get into it.
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Whew September just flew by and here we are on the eve of October with Jane Austen to fill this month of change in nature.
Found this site that i am really enjoying -
https://janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/category/regency-drink/
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I am part way into a book about Jane Austen's brothers, both naval officers. I put it aside for a while but will have to get back into it. JA incorporated bits of her brothers' experiences in her writing. I remember one bit, forget which novel it showed up in, that one her brothers presented her with a necklace, bought during his travels. It must have cost much of his monthly pay at the time. The Austen family routinely passed letters from each other and friends back and forth between them. Also, back then, keep in mind that when an enemy ship was captured, the crew were awarded prize money (often a cut of the sale of the ship and goods it held). You know, I don't know when that practice was discontinued.
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There's fascinating things in that blog, BARB. We definitely have to have elderberry wine at our gathering (hic!). Whether it will increase or decrease the quality of the discussion remains to be seen.
FRY: you chose the right book to red about Jane's naval brothers, as Persuasion is full of naval men.
You anticipated on of my discussion questions, shortly to go up. Yes, Captain Wentworth got rich by capturing the ships of other nations and confiscating their cargo. This practice was one of the things that led to the War of 1812 between England and the U.S. As a Yank, I admit I don't look as favorably on it as Austen did.
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;) legalized piracy?!? ::)
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Exactly!
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It was legalized piracy, but it was supposed to have rules. The British Navy ships could, of course, capture the warships of the country or countries they were at war with, and the ship could be sold, along with any cargo, and the money divided among the crew according to a complicated formula based on rank. They could also capture merchant ships of a country they were at war with, and dispose of them the same way. This makes a certain sense, since they were thus depriving their enemy of supplies.
Private individuals could do the same thing, if they had letters of marque and reprisal, issued by their government. These specified the nationalities of ships that could be taken, and often had other restrictions.
After the Civil War, an international treaty outlawed letters of marque, but we didn't sign it, and Congress still has the power to issue them (it's in the Constitution). With one possible exception, we don't seem to have used this power since the War of 1812.
The exception is pretty funny. At the start of WWII, we were short of aircraft on the west coast, and the Goodyear blimp Resolute acted as a privateer, patrolling for submarines. There seems to be some argument over whether the craft was actually physically issued the letters, but no doubt that they performed the function.
http://constitution.org/mil/lmr/lmr.htm (http://constitution.org/mil/lmr/lmr.htm)
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I remember one bit, forget which novel it showed up in, that one her brothers presented her with a necklace, bought during his travels.
It was Mansfield Park. William Price, brother of heroine Fanny Price, gives her an amber cross. He evidently didn't have enough money to buy a chain for it, and this creates some drama when the suitor Fanny isn't interested in tries to give her one.
Frybabe, what book do you have about Austen's naval brothers? I have one called Jane Austen and the Navy, by Brian Southam. Maybe I should pull it out of the TBR pile and actually read it.
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what book do you have about Austen's naval brothers?
Jane Austen's Sailor Brothers by J. H. Hubback and Edith C. Hubback, dated 1906. Freebie from Project Gutenberg.
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Ever since I read the Jane Austen book of manners, I've felt guilty referring to her as Austen or Jane. She would have hated it. The proper address was very important, and even married couples continued to use it.
The oldest sister in the family (Cassandra) would be called Miss Austen. Jane would be called Miss Jane Austen or, in friendly circumstances, miss Jane. Had Cassandra married, then Jane would have become Miss Austen.
So our heroine is Miss Anne Elliot, her older sister Elizabeth being simply Miss Elliot.
Is that as clear as mud? Should we call our author Miss Jane, or continue to be improper? (I've been improper before. No problem.)
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I live near where the Goodyear blimp moors, and frequently see it overhead So can I say that a pirate frequently passes me by?
I'll be out tomorrow morning, so want to welcome you to the discussion. If any of you are confused by Miss Jane's "Britishisms" or anything else, please ask here: one of us will probably know. We'll spend a week on the beginning to get used to this strange world, and then see if we can go faster.
So, here we go.
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Well, it's finally time to start. Here we are, in the elegant, protected world of Kellynch Hall, where the Elliot family is the center of the universe, with a rich assortment of characters. This is a more sober and reflective book than some of Austen's, not as funny, but every bit as enjoyable.
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Here's a bit of historical background; it's mostly familiar, but I'll put it in for the sake of completeness.
It's 1814. England has been at war with France, with only a few short breaks, for over twenty years, and with the United States for two. The naval part of the fighting was hugely important, and England had a large navy, which had been actively fighting the whole time--a very fortunate time to start a naval career. Now peace has come. Napoleon has surrendered and been imprisoned in Elba. The American war isn't over, but soon will be. Hordes of naval men have returned to England to try to make a peacetime life for themselves. Hence Admiral Croft is looking around for a place to live, and Anne fears that Captain Wentworth may soon appear on the scene.
In 1915, Napoleon will escape, but it won't take long to defeat him again, and this will mostly involve land fighting.
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Eek! I haven't started reading yet.
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What did Kellynch Hall actually look like?
Here's one person's idea:
http://www.jasa.net.au/houses/kellynch.htm (http://www.jasa.net.au/houses/kellynch.htm)
And here's how it was represented in movies:
http://victoriaconnelly.com/photographs/the-perfect-hero-photographs-2/mapperton-house/ (http://victoriaconnelly.com/photographs/the-perfect-hero-photographs-2/mapperton-house/)
http://www.kellynch.com/ (http://www.kellynch.com/)
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Don't worry, Frybabe, you've got time, and it's not very long, though packed with set-up information. I have a feeling you're not the only one.
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Now that we understand how Navel Officers became wealthy - Kellynch Hall would be a prize not unlike the taking of the booty from a captured ship.
Looking into this practice I found - Officers and Gentlemen: Gentlemanly Mystique and Military Effectiveness in the Nineteen-Century British Army (http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/general/articles/officersandgentlemen.aspx)
by James A. Shaw
A line in this book gave me a new appreciation for Walter Elliot - he seems so full of vanity based on a sow of wealth and status which I am sure his character is projecting however, from what I read it is his character that is as much his downfall as his mus-handling of his wealth. In character he is the opposite of Captain Wentworth.
An aside - I find using the over all quote from our menu above makes what is in the gray area difficult to read - so I am using a dark blue color to distinguish the bits quoted from the book -
These quotes are meant to show a logical progression of thought included in the article that highlights to the difference between these two men and even explains why a returning officer renting his estate would have more status than Walter Elliot.
The British army suffered from its position as a secondary service to the Royal Navy, but it also faced the traditional English aversion to standing armies...
...the continuation of a Western military tradition from Classical times down to the Victorian era as opportunity for military service (and indeed citizenship itself) was based upon wealth and land ownership in Classical Greece. While many British army officers were indeed well-born, wealth from any source encouraged a defense of the political and cultural system that enabled that wealth to be amassed.The citizens of ancient Greece and Rome understood this and their examples were followed by Britain...
...Christopher Duffy writes that “The most pronounced moral traits of the English [in the eighteenth century] were violence and patriotism.” It seems reasonable to argue that both moral traits continued to play a prominent role in the formation of the English character well into the nineteenth century...
...overlooked, is the mark left by war upon the development of British society. The warrior elite who gained control of Britain following the departure of the Romans “evolved into a ruling class that derived political and territorial power from its skill at arms; its carefully cultivated concepts of personal courage, honour and self-respect based on an indifference to danger lay at the heart of chivalry.” Combined with later Christian virtues and the fruits of Renaissance thought, the result was “ a persistent faith in the peculiar moral qualities of gentlemen which qualified them to command in war.” British success in war and it’s insular geographic location have set it apart from all other nations in Europe, which have “suffered defeat, occupation and calculated humiliation...” British “tenacity and intensity of purpose,” combined with success in war, have led to a high level of national self-esteem, “a vindication of a nation’s collective will and institutions,” and, possibly, hubris.
...Character was the trait that most clearly defined a gentleman, even more than wealth or birth, and it was character that was the most desirable trait in a potential officer. Character separated the elite officers from the lowly, ruffian common soldiery.
...three components of the gentleman ideal, namely the great importance attached to leisure, a particular attitude towards privilege and duty, and the attainment of “magic,” which help to understand the relationship of the nineteenth-century officer...
The gentleman’s pursuit of leisure was a status symbol of sorts in its own right, “signifying that a man could take up pursuits for their own sake rather than toil for bread alone.” One result of this gentlemanly quality was that a career as an army officer was viewed more as a type of hobby than a serious profession.
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Now it becomes clear why both the current Princes serve in the military. And why they wear their uniform during important ceremonies.
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Another tid bit that sure enough is spot on.
The expense of obtaining a commission prior to the abolition of purchase ensured that officers would indeed also be gentlemen.
According to an article written about purchasing commissions - Nor did the Royal Navy ever practise the sale of commissions, with advancement in officer ranks being solely by merit (at least in theory).
And so where Wentworth has more character he was not necessarily from wealth and where he as an officer shows a sense of a man of leisure he does not have that practiced as well as Walter Elliot.
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Good morning! Actually it's afternoon, isn't it? Where has the day gone already?
It's funny - reading of character and birth - Sir Walter Elliot prized appearance - looks right up there with birth, rank and fortune. Sir Walter values his daughter Elizabeth over Anne - Elizabeth has his looks! I'd wondered what was the matter with Anne - why she lost her pretty looks so early. Are we to conclude she changed, wilted - after their engagement was broken? Sir Walter wasn't keen on a marriage between Anne and the young navy man years before because of his poor background. He'd feel different about him now that his money - or is he still lacking in character, as defined by Sir Walter.
Can anyone me the relationship between Sir Walter and Sir William Elliot? Cousins of some sort - once removed?:D Did I understand correctly that Elizabeth is now unhappy because he married another woman - a wealthy woman. Would Eliz. Elliot have married Will. Elliot had he asked her? Or did I misunderstand something?
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That seems to be the story - not only more wealthy but older and of lessor status -
Just realized from the information about the characteristics of a Gentleman and the sunshine that is placed on looking like a Gentleman of leisure - The issue of Walter's financial collapse is not just an embarrassment and loss of position as a man of leisure but it is an issue of character - he must, as Elizabeth must hang on to their image or their character is in question.
I can see now how until the mid 1980s when it was common, anyone taking Bankruptcy it was their character they believed was in question and why folks still act as if you are less of a gentleman so to speak if you cannot provide for yourself and your family.
Where it really alters for me is remembering some of Bleak House that we read last Spring I realize now because of the importance of character John Jarndyce was disappointed in Richard Carstone. Richard sacrificed everything and by sacrificing his money he was sacrificing his character to his obsession. And how George Rouncewell has more character than Nemo, who is not just a lost benighted lover but a man who did not measure up in character having lost it with his loss of financial status. How later being employed by Sir Leicester elevated George Rouncewell as a man of character.
That may be why many today are confused because for some there is still an issue of character in husbanding your money and those who were unable to cut it are questionable to receiving public supported assistance. hmmm
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JoanP, you've got it right. Mr. Elliot is listed as "the great-grandson of the second Sir Walter". We don't know if there are the same number of generations down to Elizabeth, but if so, she would be Mr. Elliot's second cousin. He is the heir both to the title and the estate, unless Sir Walter remarries and has a son. Elizabeth threw herself in Mr. Elliot's way, and definitely meant to marry him if she could.
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aha so you are saying the Hall is lost unless Walter Elliot marries and has a son - Elizabeth has seen the last of her living out her life at Kellynch Hall.
I am only up to the beginning of chapter 3 but does it explain why Anne is so bedraggled in her appearance - all except for these big eyes?
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PAT: those links to Kellynch Hall are all priceless. The first shows how Miss Jane reveals character in a few words of description of Sir Walter and Admiral Croft's different reaction to the Hall:
Admiral Croft on moving in: " Such a number of looking glasses... now I am quite snug, with my little shaving glass in one corner, and another great thing I never go near."
I love the birds on the gate in the second one. I imagine they're supposed to be eagles, but to me they look like rather tired vultures.
The third link is a treasure trove. I need more time to investigate it all.
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I am only up to the beginning of chapter 3 but does it explain why Anne is so bedraggled in her appearance - all except for these big eyes?
She isn't. That's one of my few quarrels with an otherwise superb movie. That third link shows pictures from the 1995 BBC movie, which does a really good job of depicting most of the characters. But for some reason, they choose to show Anne this way--dowdy, bedraggled, and seemingly unsure of herself.
Anne is NOT that way in the book. She's described somewhere as an elegant little woman, with every beauty except bloom, and she is very sure of herself in her daily rounds, only getting flustered under the influence of strong emotions. Amanda Root does a good job of acting Anne, and when they occasionally let her comb her hair, as in elegant scenes in Bath, she looks the part too.
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PatH I may have used words that were too down trodden however, reviewing the first chapter about Anne - it says she has "an elegance of mind and sweetness of character" the story goes on to say "A few years before, Anne Elliot had been a very pretty girl, but her bloom had vanished early; and even in its height, her father had found little to admire in her, (so totally different were her delicate features and mild dark eyes from his own), there could be nothing in them, now that she was faded and thin, to excite his esteem.
I can see that some of the description is through the eyes of Sir Walter but the message seems to be, her bloom is gone - that I see as her vitality is in her adept mind and character but, not in her appearance that is faded and she is thin. In another era her thinness and adept mind and character would probably hailed her as another Audrey Hepburn however, rather than walking on air as a ballerina similar to Audrey Hepburn it appears with little to no makeup, wearing the fashion of the day that did nothing for someone built with few curves and allowing her smarts to shine instead of a beguiling charm, she comes across as dull and rigid, who suggests ruthless cutting to the bone to get out of debt.
Not that Elizabeth appears very beguiling but then no one is this family seems to nurture a beguiling appearance or disposition. Of all of them Lady Russell seems more the beguiling type and later Captain Wentworth does a fair share of looking and acting the beguiling one.
The best explanation I can find is when Lady Russell suggests Anne was not included in the visits to London and noted she had been discredited by the "selfish arrangements which shut her out,". Arrangements that centered on Elizabeth. Maybe that is the reason Anne lost her bloom.
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Oh, I thought you were referring to the pictures of Anne in one of the links I posted. Anne is inconsistently described in the book. Always as having lost her bloom, though. And definitely elegant.
She lost her bloom after her disappointment in love, followed by a life that didn't offer her much to make up for it.
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Maybe I have not read to where it explains she lost her love - so far I only know of Elizabeth who lost her chance at marriage to the cousin with the same last name.
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You haven't, if you're still at the end of chapter 3. You'll find out in chapter 4.
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Just finished reading Pride and Prejudice last night, so now I can give my undivided attention to Persuasion. Can't wait to catch up with all of you. I won't read any post until I have completed the assigned chapters so there will be NO spoilers for me. So sorry for lagging behind......
Ciao for now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Some things to think about: Chapters 1-6
1. There are two examples in these early pages of Persuasion that changes people's lives. What do you think of them? Who instigates them? Can you find more examples?
2. Austen is known for her sharp characterizations. Which of the characters in this opening section seem most true to life to you? Which the least? Do you feel you have met any in real life?
3. Anne, the middle child is ignored, put down, and expected to serve the others. Why? Do you feel this reflects anything in Austen's real life? How do you feel about her response to this?
4. How did Captain Wentworth become rich? What is Austen's treatment of the wider events of the day? Does this affect how you feel about the book?
5. Austen often indicates people's character by their manners. What examples can you find here?
6. Anne Elliot goes from the family estate, Kellynch Hall, to her sister's cottage at Uppercross, and the Musgrave house there. How are the environments different? How are the three sisters different? |
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
Being quite ill right now (diverticulitis) I don't want to write a long analytical post. However two short remarks.
1)I was shocked to find that the book is not shelved in the adult section of the library but exists only in the teen section. Did anyone else have that experience?
2) I had forgotten what a wonderful writer Austen is. When I am reading her words it is though I am transported to her imaginary world. As I continue reading it is as though her world becomes more real than my own. When I stoop reading it is like awakening from a dream.
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JUDE: so sorry you're ill. take care of yourself. Miss Jane is as good as chicken soup.
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Oh Jude hope it is just a temporary illness that a little bed rest and soup will have you back on your feet again.
Found it - yes, reading this on the kindle so no page numbers at 13 hours and 28 mins left in the book - sheesh anyhow here it is.
"Her attachment and regrets had, for a long time, clouded every enjoyment of youth, and an early loss of bloom and spirits had been their lasting effects."
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Jude, I am so sorry to hear you are ill!
Here is our Official SeniorLearn Chicken Soup which will make you well in no time!
(http://seniorlearn.org/latin/graphics/chickenssoup75.GIF)
Hope you feel better soon!
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Goodness, Judy, I hope you get better quickly.
I own Persuasion, but I just checked our library's online catalog. They have a huge number of copies, a few in "reading list", and all the rest in "adult fiction".
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"When I am reading her words it is though I am transported to her imaginary world."
Hopefully Miss Jane's words will continue to transport, Jude...and with the chicken soup, you will feel better soon.
Shall we keep track of the number of times Anne's appearance, her lost "bloom" is described, Barb? It seems she is still affected by her broken engagement eight years later, the "bloom" is still off the rose.
It's funny, I can empathize with Anne, feel I really understand her, but other characters are so exaggerated - they seem to be caricatures - especially her father, her sisters...
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How about Lady Russell? She's realistic, though not someone I empathize with. Austen is certainly using the rest of Anne's family to laugh at some human traits.
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I hope you feel better soon Jude, I had a bout of that years ago and had to adjust my diet to prevent another flare up. Antibiotics helped me immensely. I so agree with you, that Austen's writing is like traveling into her world. Such wonderful descriptions of the estates she speaks of. I can't imagine having to leave my home and letting it out to a family, due to careless spending.
Ciao for now~
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Yes, Lady Russell is "real" - has a good head on her shoulders, and Anne's well-being in mind. Unlike other characters she is without personal ambition. She could have married Sir Walter -maybe even produced the Elliot heir. Is she young enough? I'm forgetting that minor detail. :D
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I'm not sure how old she is. Sir Walter is now 54, so he was 41 when his wife died. If Lady Russell is of similar age, or slightly younger, she night have produced an heir had she married Sir W. soon after his bereavement.
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Didn't Jane Austen tell us as she described Lady Russell she was married and he died - need to find it again but something about Sir Walter becoming widowed soon after her own widowhood so that she was not thinking another relationship.
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Lady Russell is the widow of a knight. I'm guessing she was already widowed when she moved to the village of Kellynch to be near Anne's mother. Austen says "this friend and Sir Walter did not marry, whatever might have been anticipated on that head by their acquaintance".
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Part of the opening situation of the book is the result of a decision made by Anne eight years before. When she and Wentworth became engaged, Lady Russell, panicked by the riskiness of such an engagement, urged her to break it, which Anne reluctantly did. What do you think of this? Was Lady Russell's advice reasonable? Is it realistic that Anne would accept this advice, and persist in the face of Wentworth's objections?
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Remember Sir W. was noticing " the rapid increase of crow's foot about Lady Russell's temples"? (Sounds like some sort of disease the way it's written, doesn't it?) I guess this means she will not be the one to produce the male heir after all.
Though they will probably never marry, Lady R's opinion does matter to Sir Walter...and to Anne. They agreed at 19 that Anne was too young to marry - especially this young man who lacked background or promise. I don't think Lady R. liked him much for Anne -all other objections aside. I can't say I'd have reacted differently if she had been my daughter. (I don't have a daughter. :D) Rather than act contrary to Lady R's opinion - Anne let herself be persuaded to break the engagement. The first instance of "persuasion" in the tale.
We're told of another reason she did this - which she told no one about - that she sacrificed her own happiness "for his advantage." I wasn't exactly clear why she thought this...but he didn't take it well...and they broke it off for good- well, for the last 8 years, anyway...
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I think that most young ladies still deferred to their elders, or betters, opinions at that time. If marriages weren't outright arranged, they were still very heavily influenced by others opinions as well as future economic benefit.
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Thanks all for the good wishes. Two different anti-biotics plus senior learn chicken soup will soon make me well.
When I am feel better I will give some serious thought to this wonderful (and soothing) book.
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Looks like we don't blame Lady Russell for persuading Anne not to marry Wentworth.
The other example of persuasion is more clear --Lady Russell also takes the lead in persuading Sir Walter to rent his house. Cleverly and persistently done. I, for one, was cheering her on, and it was so clear to the bystanders that it was necessary that they were helping. Even so, it took work to get past Sir Walter's fantasy world of himself and his things as the pinnacle of creation.
What is Austen telling us about "persuasion" and what role it should play in how we live our lives? Can you think of instances where you have changed your life as a result of persuasion by others? How did it work out for you?
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I'm afraid this will be my first and last Jane Austen book. I struggled thru 6 chapters, but am tired of reading a page umpteen times trying to figure out what the h... Austen was talking about. I'm not finding the book that interesting. What is it you all find so fascinating about this book?
I guess I'm just not up to trying to decipher Austen's 1700-1800s British language writing. Altho' they were a bit later, I believe George Eliot and Charlotte Bronte were also British, and I had no trouble reading, and loved Eliot's Middlemarch and Bronte's Jane Eyre. Just can't seem to care much for this Austen novel.
Marj
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Yes, Marj, I too was finding the first chapters very difficult to follow. It was not like this with Pride and Prejudice, but I do remember thinking Sense and Sensibility very difficult to follow. Now that I have finished chapter 6, and have gotten all the characters straight it is much easier for me. I remember saying to my friend, who is a huge Jane Austen fan, that I feel Austen uses 50 words to describe something, I would use 5 words. And my friend's comment was interesting, she said, "That's what she likes so much about Austen's books, she uses words a plenty, and fears today's authors have lost that style, and are too simple with their words." So considering the era, I can understand the dialogue and appreciate it. Just takes getting used to.
Now, as for Lady Russell, I do think she is too old for Mr. Elliot, and is not at all a consideration for marriage to him. Mrs. Clay seems the most likely to end up in wedding bliss with Mr. Elliot, if he is to be married, unless we have not yet been introduced to the lady he could marry.
The common thread I have found in Austen's books I have read is: the pursuit of marriage...... two people meeting, falling in love, overcoming obstacles, and ending in marriage. I am assuming the chase here will be Anne and Mr. Wentworth. He is arriving shortly, and I am but certain the flame will rekindle in he and Anne. Since it is of utmost importance, the man must have monetary worth to make him acceptable for marriage in all of the Austen books, it leaves me to believe that was the way of life back in her era. In knowing this, Mrs. Russell's objection to Mr. Wentworth back some eight years ago, (he was not yet of success or worth, and possibly a little secret we don't know about)....I'm sensing once he returns a highly respectable, successful man of worth, Anne will not be influenced by any protests Mrs. Russell may have now. (After all, in Pride and Prejudice, Mr. Darcy was surely wrongly judged, and seen unacceptable for Elizabeth,....and we all know how that ended.)
Now what do you all think of Mary and all her drama? I kept thinking, Mary, Mary quite contrary. lolol She does seem to do a bit of gossiping and have in-law problems. And she seems to prefer having her two little rug rats staying at the Grandparents, more than at home. ::) ::) ::)
Ciao for now~
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I think one of the pleasures of Jane Austin is in most of her stories it is all about the little things - the everyday ordinary things - the mores of the time and how they affect the inner soul if you would of some of her characters but mostly about the minutia of life rather than the sweeping story that we are used to and call a page turner - Her stories seem to be less of, by the way this or that is going to happen but rather, like a child looks at a patch of grass and sees each grass blade coming from the dirt and the ants crawling in and out is similar to Jane Austin writing about a patch of Britain in a certain time in history as it applies to only a few characters - we hear very little about the life of these characters when they are miles away from this small patch that is the center of her story.
For now the patch in Kellynch Hall and the relationship the house holds for the characters and we are allowed a peek into a small patch of Anne's heart and mind. Jane Austen writes like a zen master with all emotion on the moment rather than in anticipation of the future.
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MARGE: I'm sorry you feel that way. But we're all different. As Bellamarie says "I remember saying to my friend, who is a huge Jane Austen fan, that I feel Austen uses 50 words to describe something, I would use 5 words. And my friend's comment was interesting, she said, "That's what she likes so much about Austen's books, she uses words a plenty, and fears today's authors have lost that style, and are too simple with their words."
If anyone has words or situations that they don't understand in the first section, please bring them here. Someone will know.
There is an annotated "persuasion" out, with text and notes on facing pages (often more notes than text). PatH has it: she can tell you where she got it.
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Mary is something, isn't she. Of course she doesn't want her kids around; they require attention, and she wants all the attention on her.
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Thanks for your comments Bellamarie, Barb and Joan K. I'll try a few more chapters. and may give Pride and Prejudice a try. Austen does have a good vocabulary (did women attend school back then?). Who were Austen's audience? Not men, surely. So there must have been quite a few upper class women who could read and who could understand and appreciate Austen's novels.
Marj
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I am also finding this book rather tedious. I don't remember feeling that way when I read it years ago. It may be the mood I am in now. However, I will keep trudging along for a while.
Sally
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Pride and Prejudice is a rather different book, much more lighthearted and less inward, with a more complicated plot and a lot more humorous bits and thoroughly developed comic characters, so it might be worth a try.
Who was Austen's audience? There were definitely men as well as women. At one point the Prince Regent wrote her giving her permission (that means ordering her) to dedicate her next book to him. I don't know if she did or not; she didn't want to, as she disapproved of his morals.
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It's an interesting question Marj, "Did women attend school back then?" In all the books so far I have read I don't recall any schools mentioned for women. I may have to google and find the answer to that question. We know men were educated and required to learn a business or skill, but women required a dowry for marriage and a reputable family/reputation. Glad to hear you will stick with it a bit more Marj, I don't think you will be disappointed.
BarbStAubry, I can not imagine describing Austen's writing in the words you so eloquently used. I think Jane Austen would be impressed and proud of your descriptions of her writings. I know I am.
Indeed Mary requires much attention and company. She just could not stop trying to make Anne guilty for not coming immediately to her aide. Seems she is feeling much better now that she has her sister by her side.
PatH., There is an annotated "persuasion" out, with text and notes on facing pages (often more notes than text). PatH has it: she can tell you where she got it.
I would love to know more?
Ciao for now~
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I hope things will pick up for you, Sally and Marj, but if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. We're only doing this to have fun.
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Thanks, Bellamarie, for mentioning the annotated Persuasion! It's called PERSUASION; AN ANNOTATED EDITION. Luckily, my library has it, as Amazon wants $19 for a used copy. Can't wait to get it.
Marj
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I'm hooked, and nearly through the book. I've always meant to read something by Austen, and what better opportunity than joining this discussion. I can't presume to make any worthwhile contributions, speaking from ignorance of the subject. Some passages are bewildering and obtuse and wordy, but then suddenly with five words Austen lights up some dark corner of the mind.
PatH asks, who was Austen's audience. Let me tell you what I found when I dropped in at my local library branch. I headed for the teens area as Jude suggested, but I didn't get past the display of Austenania set up in the welcome area. All her things were there, naturally, but also a number of things about her writing.
Here's one. Jane Austen's Guide to Dating, with chapter headings like, 1.If You LIke Someone, Make It Clear That You Do. 3. Don't Play Games or Lead People On. 4. Have Faith in Your Own Instincts. 6. Look for Someone Who Can Bring Out Your Best Qualities. 10. If Your Lover Needs a Reprimand, Let Him Have It.
These tips all come with good illustrations taken from the books.
Just as interesting was a book by a professor of political science UCLA. The title: Jane Austen, Game Theorist. From the jacket: 'Game theory - the study of how people make choices while interacting with others...the book shows how this beloved writer theorized choice and preferences, prized strategic thinking...analyzed why superiors are often strategically clueless about inferiors...etc.
This is heavy stuff. Jane Austen did for love, what Clausewitz did for war.
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Oh, and a librarian working on the display gave me an ivitation to a lecture on JA's S&S at the branch next Monday. I think I'll go. Must learn more about this strategist on relationships.
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Wow! Hi, Jonathan. Glad you're here! First you say you have nothing to add, then you add a lot! Strategist on relationships is a great description! Please share what you learn at the talk.
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Marj, you found the book before I got back online. I got my copy from Amazon, $12.99 for a new paperback. I'll be interested to learn whether you think it helps or hurts. The information is interesting and useful, but all those notes destroy the flow of words and make one lose track of the narrative.
Jonathan, glad to see you here, and that you're hooked. Of course you now have the problem of avoiding making spoilers, but that's OK.
"but then suddenly with five words Austen lights up some dark corner of the mind." Yes, indeed.
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Education of girls: many girls were educated at home, either by governesses or their mothers. Jane Austen was sent to school at age 6, along with her sister Cassandra, and after a few years they completed their education at home.
Anne Elliot went to school in Bath, perhaps after her mother died. Later on we will meet one of her schoolmates. Mary Elliot went away to school too--she didn't know about Anne's affair with Wentworth because she was away during that time.
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Oh my heavens!!! Jonathon, how lucky are YOU, to go to your library and not only find a display of Jane Austen, but get an invite to a S&S. Now I am jealous, to say the least. You must come back and share with the group.
I would never have imagined to find Austen's books among the teen section. Now I love this, " Jane Austen's Guide to Dating, with chapter headings like, 1.If You LIke Someone, Make It Clear That You Do. 3. Don't Play Games or Lead People On. 4. Have Faith in Your Own Instincts. 6. Look for Someone Who Can Bring Out Your Best Qualities. 10. If Your Lover Needs a Reprimand, Let Him Have It.
If only the young teens today could read this guide, I do think they would respect each other and even themselves a whole lot more than a one night stand, without even catching each other's name. I have one grand daughter who is 18 yrs old and has yet to be in a steady relationship with any one guy. I am so proud of her because she is old fashion and does not care that her other friends have either had numerous boyfriends, or one steady one for 3 yrs. She's a beauty and a gem, and our entire family will have to approve when a suitor does call. Now mind you she probably went to every prom every school had in our city her four years at Notre Dame Academy, with a different boy friend. It so reminds me of all the young ladies in Austen's books going to the many balls, excited to dress in their beautiful gowns and dancing with the dashing young men. Could you imagine Austen's standards of courting/dating existing today. If only! :-[
I want to read ahead Jonathon, but I just know I would blurt out something I'm not suppose to. It is I believe, Austen's shortest books so it won't be too long to wait to see what Austen has in store for us.
PatH., We were posting at the same time. Thank you so much for the info on their education. I knew I read about home schooling and governesses, but was not sure about going away to a school.
Ciao for now~
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Jonathon, that is sooooo interesting. I tried one of those free Game Theory lecture series online, but soon gave it up. I was so befuddled. Perhaps if I try reading Jane Austen, Game Theorist, the examples therein help make more sense out of the subject.
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Jonathan, you were clearly meant to be here...walking into that JA ambush...first the display and then the invitation to the lecture! Eerie, but wonderful. Can't wait for you to continue to share what you learn from all this.
Marjifay...you sound really determined to get Jane Austen this time! I've been reading the comments here about the difference some of you are noticing between JA's writing in earlier novels and this one. Do you think that fact that Persuasion was her last novel before she died affected her writing? Not merely the fact that she was ill, but I wonder if she had the time to edit, to lighten the tone, perhaps? I know that my final drafts are quite different from my first attempts. Could it be she wasn't ready for her publisher? I read somewhere that Jane's brother brought Persuasion to her publisher after her death...and that she hadn't even put a title on it yet. Can anyone verify that it was her brother who actually named the book "Persuasion"?
PatH - you've explained why Anne's sister Mary is so uncaring about Anne's feelings each tine she brings up Captain Wentworth's name. I couldn't understand why she didn't know of her own sister's engagement. Away at school in Bath...and the engagement was very short, wasn't it. Thank's for that information, Pat.
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So much attention to people's appearance:
Sir Walter: blessing of beauty, good looks
Elizabeth, handsome, blooming
Mary, Inferior to Elizabeth, coarse
Anne, Inferior to Elizabeth, bloom vanished early, thin, faded, haggard
Lady Russell - crow's feet
Admiral Baldwin - deplorable looking, rough, rugged, face color of mahogany, grey hair
Admiral Croft - hale, hearty, well-looking, a little weather-beaten
Mrs Clay - freckles, projecting tooth, clumsy wrist?
Mrs Croft - good teeth, bright dark eyes, reddened weather beaten complexion
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Bummer! My library does not have Jane Austen, Game Theorist and it is too pricey for me just yet (even on the used market).
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Yes Kidsal, all that negative description - I was pondering just that this morning - Why? Then it hit me, I wonder, do you think it was not so much that Jane Austen was sitting back having characters judge each others physical imperfections but rather, a way of describing their character - this is a time of Elegance - Elegance of manner, looks, decor, beauty.
Longfellow says, “In character, in manner, in style, in all the things, the supreme excellence is simplicity”
From Cyrano de Bergerac, “I have a different idea of elegance. I don't dress like a fop, it's true, but my moral grooming is impeccable. I never appear in public with a soiled conscience, a tarnished honor, threadbare scruples, or an insult that I haven't washed away. I'm always immaculately clean, adorned with independence and frankness. I may not cut a stylish figure, but I hold my soul erect. I wear my deeds as ribbons, my wit is sharper then the finest mustache, and when I walk among men I make truths ring like spurs.”
Elegance being the ideal, no one in her story, so far, meets this ideal. What I am seeing is that Elegance is like a wall and as long as Jane can stay on this side of the wall she has characters that are less than ideal and she can play them one against the other. During other times in history a story can be told with good guys and bad guys or white hats and black hats - here we have the white hat being elegance and lacking that ideal the characters can affect each other.
Example, if Anne was not so isolated and wounded she would stand up for herself instead of harboring pain when ever the name Wentworth is heard. If elegance in beauty is the ideal how does a craggy weathered face blend with the beauty of a country house surrounded by gardens and a park? How does a father explain unmarried daughters except they do not have the look required to attract suitable suitors who can live with the inner and outer peace and grace that is elegance on parade that security in wealth allow.
On and on I am seeing the description of their lessor nature and looks rub up against Elegance, the ideal of the day.
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I am a member of a ebook site called Kobo and I found this book and think it is very helpful and interesting. Wanted to share this will you all.....NO SPOILERS I promise!
The Real Life Inspiration Behind Jane Austen’s Work
A Book=by-Book Look At Austen’s Inspirations by Paul Brody
BOOKCAPS Study Guides www.bookcaps.com 2012 All Rights Reserved
After completing Emma, Jane Austen almost immediately started working on what would be her last finished novel. Persuasion was complete by August 1816 and published near the end of 1817. Austen was still residing in Chawton with her mother, her sister Cass and their good friend Martha Lloyd. The summer months were intensely cold and rainy and various family members dropped in at Chawton at regular intervals. 1816 was also the year when Austen first began experiencing symptoms of the disease that would end her life in July of the following year. Despite all these distractions Austen was able to finish the novel to her own satisfaction.
Persuasion has more a downbeat and ironic tone, somewhat similar to Mansfield Park. It’s also a less polished novel than any of her earlier efforts. This fact can largely be explained by the onset of Austen’s fatal illness. She was physically and mentally unable to go through her usual processes of reading and revision. In terms of theme, the novel concerns itself with the many roles that unmarried women have to find for themselves in society, whether governess, school teacher, or charity case. Austen was speaking for not only her own experience, but that of her sister, her friend Martha Lloyd, and several other female friends who had passed a reasonable marrying age.
The character of Anne Elliot was also a big departure for Austen. At 27 years old, she is the oldest heroine in any of the novels. Could it be that as Austen was entering middle age, she felt inclined to write about a different kind of woman’s experience?
Mrs. Croft, another interesting character in Persuasion provides a model for a more empowered and forward thinking woman. With woman’s role in society still a topic of lively debate, Mrs. Croft demonstrates how old fashioned values can be stifling and misguided. She trusts her own judgments rather than simply going with what’s expected, and more often than not turns out to be right. Just as with Anne Elliot, there is a lot of Jane Austen in Mrs. Croft.
Ten years before writing Persuasion, Austen had visited the town of Lyme Regis. Though it did not have quite the reputation of Bath, it was still a popular vacation spot for the well-to-do of society. She was mostly enchanted by the natural scenery of the bay and the quaint tightly clustered houses. The town made a much deeper impression on her imagination than Bath, and so she decided to capture its essence in the novel.
Like Northanger Abbey, the title Persuasion was chosen by Henry Austen after his sister’s untimely death. Austen had called the novel The Elliots. The two posthumously published novels were originally sold together as a single set.
I think I may decided to also purchase this book: A biography of Jane Austen by Carol Sheilds “Jane Austen a Life”
Forgive me for any typos in a hurry, off to volleyball games.
Ciao for now~
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12 |
Some things to think about: Chapters 1-6
1. There are two examples in these early pages of Persuasion that changes people's lives. What do you think of them? Who instigates them? Can you find more examples?
2. Austen is known for her sharp characterizations. Which of the characters in this opening section seem most true to life to you? Which the least? Do you feel you have met any in real life?
3. Anne, the middle child is ignored, put down, and expected to serve the others. Why? Do you feel this reflects anything in Austen's real life? How do you feel about her response to this?
4. How did Captain Wentworth become rich? What is Austen's treatment of the wider events of the day? Does this affect how you feel about the book?
5. Austen often indicates people's character by their manners. What examples can you find here?
6. Anne Elliot goes from the family estate, Kellynch Hall, to her sister's cottage at Uppercross, and the Musgrave house there. How are the environments different? How are the three sisters different?1. There are two examples in these early pages of Persuasion that changes people's lives. What do you think of them? Who instigates them? Can you find more examples?
Chapters 7-12
1. What are Anne's feelings on meeting Wentworth? What are Wentworth's? How do the differences in these feelings reflect the difference in their circumstance?
2. Two married women in this section are Mary and Mrs. Croft. How do they represent two extremes in reacting to the role of wife?
3. What are the two examples of "persuasion" in this section? How do you feel about them?
4. In this book, character is shown by the way people react to the choices and circumstances given them. Give some examples. What other ways might character be defined?
5. Is Wentworth's attitude toward Anne changing? If so, how and why?
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
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Thanks for that quote, Bellamarie. It's a little frustrating to wonder what Austen would have added if she had time for her usual revising, but she did polish up the version she had nicely. It makes sense that she might now turn to writing about older heroines as she aged, and be more somber because she was ill, but the whole story must be more complicated than that. After she finished Persuasion, she started on another novel, Sanditon, which she left unfinished (probably about a third done) and unpolished. It's comic and frivolous, and doesn't show any signs that it would turn serious. It's also not very good, but it's a work in progress, probably would have gotten better as she worked it over.
We'll see more of Mrs. Croft and the Admiral in the next section.
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And BARB: good points about elegance. I love the quote from Cyrano:
“I have a different idea of elegance. I don't dress like a fop, it's true, but my moral grooming is impeccable. I never appear in public with a soiled conscience, a tarnished honor, threadbare scruples ...."
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I was curious as to of how Jane Austen died, so I did some searching on Google, well lo and behold it seems there is no conclusive cause of death. I read Addison's disease, Tuberculosis caught from cattle, arsenic poisoning (possibly given to treat a sickness which was common back then, or one mystery author even suspected possible arsenic poisoning on purpose.) One of Austen's most recent biographers, Claire Tomalin, suggested in 1977 that lymphoma would better fit the novelist's reported conditions. And there are so many others who came up with different possibilities.
Something I never knew.....Jane Austen's mature works, Sense and Sensibility, Pride and Prejudice, Mansfield Park and Emma were all published anonymously-signed "By a Lady" - and appeared from 1811 onwards. Austen's last two works, Persuasion and Northanger Abbey, were released posthumously and were the first to identify her as the true author.
I just keep finding more and more facts and information that is so intriguing.
PatH., " It makes sense that she might now turn to writing about older heroines as she aged, and be more somber because she was ill, but the whole story must be more complicated than that."
Your statement got me to thinking, and made me wonder how someone who was never married and died a spinster, could have such insight into the relationships of love, romance and marriage, without actually experiencing it herself. I would have never guessed she had never married from reading her novels and never really knowing much about her until now. It's a pity Cassandra had most of Jane's letter destroyed to protect her privacy after her death. Imagine what more we could have learned about her if they still existed.
The schedule for the month's reading is not in the header so I was wondering which chapters we are to read next, so I do not go too far as I begin to read tonight. We are expecting a Sunday of rain and chilly temps, so no football game for me, which means I can read the entire day if I so wish.
Ciao for now~
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Bellkemarie: it's going into the heading now. Chapters 7-12.
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Bellamarie, you caught us just as we were about to post the next schedule. As JoanK says, it's chapters 7-12, which make a good unit. We thought 5 days would be enough. It takes a while to get into the book, and used to the language and conventions, but then it goes faster.
Comments, anyone? Is this the right speed? Everything can be changed to fit what anyone wants.
Bellamarie, I really appreciate your wish not to read ahead. There is suspense in this novel, and you only get one chance at wondering how things will come out, so it adds to the fun if you don't read ahead. (My one chance was long in the past, but i still remember my feelings.)
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I'm ready - must say that this is the first time I see an advantage to reading on the kindle - in the past reading Jane Austin the sentences seemed long and unruly and took up so much of the page if appeared as if they squeezed them in to accommodate the length of the book - usually I like knowing where in the book I am not just knowing the chapter but seeing the thickness of the number of pages still to read or that I have read but this time I am gliding through - it is so much easier reading Jane Austen with just a small window of words to read and no hurry to get so much read in order to feel accomplished. I have the type set at 2nd from the smallest and find it easy to read. Also having some of the background on the habits and what the words mean makes it a lot easier - with each read of Jane Austin i learn more - we did one a couple of years ago - was that Sense and Sensibility? Not remembering I do not think it was Mansfield. The biggest aha at the time was learning what a living was.
And yes PatH was it you who brought us the info about Jane Austen when she was writing this book about her view of women. That is what I am picking up - their lives were so held in by manners which may have been the unconscious desire to make something elegant out of a feeling of being caged by the patriarchy.
Poor Mary she is trapped not knowing how to raise her boys - if she keeps them close and obedient than they would be mama's boys and they have to grow up to take their place in this patriarchal controlled traditional society. Her husband does not seem like a bad sort so I am guessing when the boys are teens he will take them under his wing and together they will be out daily hunting and fishing unless, his parents die and then he has a purpose to maintain the estate.
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P.S. downright chilly here tonight - cold front blew in this evening and it is down into the 60s - haven't felt that since last early April. I've all the windows open... :)
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Chilly! Yes, we had snow in Wyoming !!
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Here on the East Coast - still summer! 90 degrees!
How come Anne is so good with Mary's children? So much "sweeter" than both sisters. Same parents, same upbringing. What is JA telling us about Nature/ Nurture?
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I love not reading ahead, it really does keep me excited to discuss the present chapters, and look forward to what is to come. Once I read ahead when I first began in the book club, and regretted it, because I found I could not discuss the present chapters freely, due to fear of giving away what's to come. This pace is perfect for me. I happened to have a night to myself, and wanted to read the next chapters, since my Sunday was going to be busy, and did not want to read past the next assigned chapters. Thanks ladies for posting the schedule.
JoanP., "How come Anne is so good with Mary's children? So much "sweeter" than both sisters. Same parents, same upbringing. What is JA telling us about Nature/ Nurture?"
I think Mary's children are so much "sweeter" with Anne, due to the fact Anne has a more calming personality. I own my in home day care, and I can tell you from experience that children who are rowdy and unruly with their parents are completely different while in my care. Parents are so busy they tend to not take the time to discipline when necessary, and be consistent, so it gives the children the signals they can keep doing what they are doing. As far as nature vs nurture, I am sure we have all seen parents who could benefit from taking parenting classes, or should not be parents at all. I am not implying this is the case with Mary & Charles, but they do seem to be more concerned with what they want, rather than take the time for their boys. I found it interesting how Austen says the grandparents do not take them as often as Mary would like. As a grandparent myself I can say there are days my sons or daughter in law will call for help to just take the kids because they know its a sure bet they will enjoy the day at Nonnie & Papa's, and it gives them a breather. We are blessed to live close enough so I am able to day care them after school, and yet enjoy them on the week- end at sports and yes, SOS calls. :)
Anne has no children, husband or boyfriend to deal with on a day to day basis, so I think she would love playing with her nephews, and spend time with them. When children feel someone wants to be with them and enjoy them, they are sweeter.
BarbStAubry., I have the nookcolor, and I agree, it is easier reading a small screen of words with a bit larger font, rather than a page of so many words of tiny print in a book, especially when reading Austen's words a plenty. I am reading Persuasion from a book with very tiny print and the pages seem endless, but luckily the chapters are short.
Ciao for now~
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Here is something which may be interesting to you ... After reading through some of these postings, I did some research on Jane Austen. Apparently, there is something called the Austen project where current authors are scheduled to publish contemporary versions of Austen's works. The latest one to be announced is Alexander McCall Smith. I just found it rather intriguing. Here's the link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10353862/Alexander-McCall-Smith-to-write-modern-reworking-of-Jane-Austens-Emma.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10353862/Alexander-McCall-Smith-to-write-modern-reworking-of-Jane-Austens-Emma.html)
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Awww I think we can give Mary a break - most kids love the attention when they get it from an Aunt or Grandparent and will act differently - as to Mary - look at her - she came from the big house of her father, who is having a great deal of difficulty leaving this great house partly because it defines his station in life and there was Mary after marriage not going to another big house but to this cottage. She has no job so to speak which the wife would have guiding the indoor staff of a big house and preparing herself for all the entertainment that is part of the running of a big house.
All she is left with is a poky cottage, caring for her sons who will grow up and put some dear women into the same straights as Mary finds herself. She has no status to make friends befitting who she was and who, one day after her husband's parents die, who she will be. Evidently the budget it tight since she does not have an inordinate amount of help nor an extensive wardrobe. She has no joyful activity to look forward to each day as her husband has his hunting. All she is is a baby machine that is obligated to visits with his parents in the great house which I bet she feels is rubbing her nose in it.
Sensitive or not to her situation her husband has no clue she has been demoted and lives isolated from her kind with expectations to make friends among the villagers. He knows in time he will be master of the house but by then she will be old - she is young, if she married in her teens she is probably in her mid twenties. Like Downton Abbey a century later she could have married the chauffeur the way she is living, when she thought she was marrying the son of an estate. And besides, all this loss of status and here she was prettier than her sisters - Of course she blames his parents - her husband has no job and she is reduced to cottage life because they won't step aside and move into a cottage so their married son can have the prestige due to him.
Even Lionel's parents in As Time Goes By moved to the gate keeper's cottage so that Lionel and Jean could have the main house that they were only going to use on weekends.
I think Jane Austen is showing us that women are the dressing of this system and once someone has the power that goes hand in glove with owning and running a great house they do not want to give up that prestige regardless having lost the wealth that allows them to run the house or because they want to remain in the house, although, you cannot blame the Musgroves for that since there are two younger daughters they must see suitably married.
Then to top it off Mary must feel she does not have all her husband's love - she may not be able to put her finger on it but she has to be feeling abandoned - and for what, to take care of two boys who will grow up and put another woman through what she is going through - I see her powerless, angry, feeling betrayed, isolated with her only choice to become a long suffering wife and mother living an interior life. She would even have to deny her natural instincts to be friendly and focus inward like a Teresa of Ávila. So no wonder she is hysterical. No different than many hysterical woman that had to be broken to live within the boundaries.
Heck during the 1950s when my children were young I often went hysterical after his job moved us away from family and friends without enough income to hire help and he worked 60 hour weeks because they were designing new products and a day off meant he played golf. It was the way it was and for sure neither of us had an answer. He even took care of the babies one night a week so I could join an art group that I soon gave up because it was not satisfying what I really wanted that I could not even name.
Mary Musgrove could easily be Diana Spenser married to Charles who waits his whole life for the job, who secretly loved another and after seeing Althorp, Highgove was poky in comparison although, Charles to be king balanced that out. However, a young mom feeling isolated and abandoned by her husband goes hysterical just as Diana did.
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Gosh, that took my breath away reading your post. There is more to Mary than I remember from the movie.
I still haven't started the book, but am reading the posts.
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Gosh is right. You really "get" Mary, don't you Barb?
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Heavens I just can't agree with you on much of what you feel about Mary. BarbStAubry, "Mary Musgrove could easily be Diana Spenser married to Charles who waits his whole life for the job, who secretly loved another and after seeing Althorp, Highgove was poky in comparison although, Charles to be king balanced that out. However, a young mom feeling isolated and abandoned by her husband goes hysterical just as Diana did."
I'm not at all aware of Diana going hysterical, she was a graceful, woman in much pain but did not allow it to stop her from being a charitable, loving and caring person. I have to say, since Princess Di was a very much admired person, not only by "the people" but by me as well, to the point of having a beautiful doll collection of her. I could never imagine a comparison of "The People's Princess" Diana to Mary. Princess Di even knowing Charles was having an affair with Camilla on her wedding night and throughout their years of marriage, did not ignore her two beautiful sons. If anything in the worst of her relationship with Charles she concentrated on raising her two sons to be so much better than Prince Charles could ever imagine to be. Prince William and Harry are two caring, loving, generous young men who have inherited Diana's qualities of caring for charities and those less fortunate. Diana would be very proud of the men they have become.
Mary is a very selfish, gossipy, all about me person. She whines about everything, and instead of helping with situations she complains or tries to use the situation to her advantage. I don't see Charles any more inattentive to her as any of the other men in Austen's novel. Mary pretended to be sick and calls for Anne to come to her aide, only to find out the night before Anne gets there Mary has attended a ball. She has a miraculous recovery that night, and once Anne is there. Barb I must say you are much too kind and understanding where Mary is concerned. I'm just not seeing her as you do. Where ever are you seeing Charles loves anyone other than Mary? I have not gotten that impression what so ever. I'm not sure anyone could give Mary the amount of attention she seems to need. I don't think money or social status has anything to do with her character. Maybe I will change my mind in the last chapters of the book, but I must say, I have read the next chapters and nothing gives me any indication Mary has any changes in her selfish behavior. If anything it proves even more so. If Mary feels lowly, because of cottage compared to her great house, its because she is spoiled and can not appreciate what she does have. She may very well take after her father. who has driven them to financial ruin, having to rent out their family home due to lack of discipline and money management.
Anne is truly a kind and giving soul who is allowing Mary to take advantage of her, when she has enough on her plate as it is. Mary could have cared less how much Anne had to take care of to prepare for the family's move, all she wanted was her there to wait on her and keep her company. If she could be more kind and generous, maybe she could find a kinship with her in laws rather than to gossip behind their backs, and take advantage of them. Sorry if I am being hard on Mary, but I guess we can all see people differently. That's what makes for an interesting discussion.
Ciao for now~
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Aha! Mary's marriage has brough her much pain and suffering. Was Lady Russell's 'persuasion' meant to save Anne from a similiar fate? Of course, eight lonely years have not been easy on Anne. The bloom has gone from her life. I believe the jury is still out on whether this is a patriarchal or a matriarchal society. Who is the social arbiter among this sorry lot?
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OH dear Bellamarie, we see Mary through different eyes - Diana throwing herself down the stairs while pregnant to me is being hysterical - I thought in her early years she was taken advantage of and where she did not have a front window to gossip with the neighbors Diane chose a public gym - I just do not see fault with either women and see the circumstances of life having a large hand in their feelings and subsequent behavior. Since we know now from your research that Jane was writing about the women's experience although, you did say the unmarried, I just saw Mary in light of what it was like to be a 1950s homemaker before Woman's Lib.
We do know the wonders of a classic book is that we can all see something in the story that makes it ours - there is no right way to read and understand, we learned that a story becomes the readers and so we have more than one way of assessing Mary's behavior - I just see them all pawns to the social mores of the time and they are all trying to live to the expectations. Some are more successful than others but no one is perfect in this story - I just see the striving side for each.
I also see Anne as portraying the kind of women who was supposed to be seen and not heard but compassionate to all - in today's world someone would do her a favor if they slipped under her door the quote by Rebecca West, 1911, "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat".
I think she was betrayed by life and those who were supposed to have her best interests at heart that they swapped for again, the social mores of the time and so she has successfully gone inward while outwardly she is the doormat. She appears to be the character that is going through life carrying the shadows of her past allowing it to taint her future. This great disappointment in the past, she has allowed it to define her identity.
I just do not see any bad guys in this story - all I see is some very hurt people who made choices that others, we, have made in life and all choices have an outcome as well as, all choices made with the best intention help form our character. I see them all as good people trying to live up to a standard of power and elegance they cannot meet. If they were perfect Jane Austen would have no story - to me she is writing about everyman so to speak who runs into the social expectations with limited resources they each have in order to meet those expectations.
Yep, I see a better angle as the underlying intention and life's betrayal for each of them.
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Yes, a good book is open to many interpretations. Barb, you point out some possible causes for Mary's dissatisfaction that hadn't occurred to me, and make me much more sympathetic to her. But I do think she's self-centered and manipulating. The "cottage" is no hovel, though. It has been remodeled and enlarged and modernized for them and "with its viranda, French windows, and other prettinesses, was quite as likely to catch the traveller's eye as the more...considerable aspect and premises of the Great House...." Charles' parents would not be in a position to turn over the Great House to him even supposing they wanted to, because in addition to Henrietta and Louisa, it's mentioned they have a number of younger children, though we haven't met them yet.
Does she feel unloved? She might, if she knows that Charles proposed to Anne before he proposed to her.
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BARB: "I just do not see any bad guys in this story - all I see is some very hurt people who made choices that others, we, have made in life and all choices have an outcome as well as, all choices made with the best intention help form our character. I see them all as good people trying to live up to a standard of power and elegance they cannot meet. If they were perfect Jane Austen would have no story - to me she is writing about everyman so to speak who runs into the social expectations with limited resources they each have in order to meet those expectations."
Very well put.
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Princess Diana was a very troubled woman, who allegedly, made several attempts at suicide, I personally would not call it hysteria, if anything I would call it cries for help. I have several of her books including the one she sat down with Andrew Morton and was very honest in expressing her hurt, depression and eating disorders. According to her and others she was badly abused emotionally and mentally by not only Charles, but the queen herself. She was such a young girl with dreams of love, romance, family and a lasting marriage. Unless I have ever lived a person's life I can't judge what or how I would react to being treated so cruelly. But in defense of Diana, she did rise above it, raised her sons, and did much charitable work for land mines and Aids. Something Austen's Mary I could never imagine doing.
PatH,. "Does she feel unloved? She might, if she knows that Charles proposed to Anne before he proposed to her."
I think we do find out about Charles wanting Anne first, and when she rejected him, he settled for Mary. So yes, I do believe Mary lives with knowing she was his second choice and possibly unloved, but from the impression I have gotten reading Austen's books regarding marriage, many of the young women flirt and wait to be chosen, and one says NO, the other is waiting in the parlor ready to say YES. Why is it Austen shows us how love is not necessarily the driving force for marriage. If anything the dowry and the social position along with the man's wealth, seems to rank more important.
I don't see any "bad guys" in the story, I just am expressing how I see Mary.
BarbStAubry, "We do know the wonders of a classic book is that we can all see something in the story that makes it ours - there is no right way to read and understand, we learned that a story becomes the readers and so we have more than one way of assessing Mary's behavior."
I could not agree with you more and you said it so eloquently.
Ciao for now~
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The questions for tomorrow's section are now in the heading, below those for this section. What are your last thoughts before we go on to Lyme?
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If anyone was confused by the new set of questions, it's because I got them totally scrambled in the process of inserting them. They're in order now.
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HHORAY!
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I can't wait to go to Lyme! Have started next month's discussion - Remarkable Creatures which is set in Lyme Regis. Hope you will all follow us next month. You'll love it!
I had another thought about the three sisters and the role they each play. I wonder how much Jane Austen was relating to her own role in the family. Have we talked about her family yet? I know she had an older sister - and a brother. In most families, isn't the youngest usually spoiled - the "baby. " Not only coddled by mama, but also her older sister(s)? To me this explains Mary's behaviour - it's the role she's always played. She knows no other way but to call on her sister to help.
And the oldest - almost like a third parent to the younger ones - especially in this case when the the mama has died. Elizabeth has had to step into the role of her father's partner,...while Anne is expected to pick up the slack when her older sister is too busy with more important business at her father's side.
Anne seems to have resigned herself to this role - accepts it as the one she must play, serving both sisters - and Mary's children too.
I still don't know how I feel about her broken engagement. She was so young. She followed her father's wishes, and Lady Russell's advice. Does anyone here think she ought to have followed her heart and married the sailor?
She was never interested in anyone else after that. Is this Jane Austen's story too? Was there a Captain Wentworth in her life?
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I like the explanation for the three sisters - another layer of understanding - seems to me we read how Jane Austen had a love that I thought he died but whatever she never married.
I'm thinking this may be the time in history when being married for love was beginning to be a possibility because that appears to be the dichotomy between Anne and Captain Wentworth - they loved but the thousands of year old system for marriage was to marry wealth or power or increase alliances between families.
The troubadours may have been singing about love since the eleventh century but courtly love was always about a man pining for and winning the affections of a married women. My guess is as women began to have legal rights and were no longer the property of the husband which legally started to change in the early nineteenth century then there was a place for a marriage based on love.
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Jane Austen didn't have a Captain Wentworth, but at twenty she did have a fairly serious flirtation with Tom Lefroy, a visiting relative of a neighbor. They spent a few weeks or months dancing together a lot at local balls, and enjoying each other's company. Nothing could come of it; neither had any money, and Tom was under the patronage of a relative who was furthering his legal career. Tom was whisked away by his family, and they never saw each other again. He eventually became Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, and in his old age admitted having been fond of Jane.
Much later, the heir to an estate proposed to her at a ball, and she accepted. Next morning, horrified at what she had done, she broke the engagement. He was probably equally horrified, and readily released her. He was rich, but personally stodgy and boring, and Jane doesn't seem to have regretted her decision.
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Someone asked about Jane Austen's siblings:
Jane Austen was the seventh of eight children: six brothers and one sister. Two of her brothers were in the navy, so she had accurate knowledge of naval life and manners. Here’s a list.
1) James, 1765-1819. Clergyman, also wrote (mostly poetry) and was considered the better writer by some of the family. (humph)
2) George, 1766-1838. “Mentally abnormal” in some unspecified way, and subject to fits. Was cared for all his life by a local family.
3) Edward Austen Knight, 1768-1852. Was adopted by wealthy cousins, took their name and later inherited their estate.
4) Henry, 1771-1850. Janes favorite brother, he helped her get her books published. Married his cousin, Eliza de Feullide, who’s first husband had been guillotined in the French Revolution. A banker, who later joined the clergy (after his bank failed).
5) Cassandra, 1773-1845. Jane’s beloved older sister.
6) Francis, 1774-1865. In the Navy, ending up as Admiral of the Fleet.
7) Jane, 1775-1817.
8 ) Charles, 1779-1852. Also in the navy, ending up as a rear admiral.
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Well now all the information provided, sure does cast a light on things. I did feel JA was either Elizabeth or Anne after finding out she had never married. Now PatH., has supplied us with Jane having, " a fairly serious flirtation with Tom Lefroy," and this, "Much later, the heir to an estate proposed to her at a ball, and she accepted. Next morning, horrified at what she had done, she broke the engagement."
Is it coincidental that Anne turned down Charles, and than we have Mr. Wentworth not being wealthy or successful enough for Lady Russell to approve of Anne and Mr. Wentworth at the time they were in love with each other?
Makes me wonder if JA knew she was in her dying days as she wrote this last novel, and wanted to reveal herself in it as Anne, or Elizabeth, or both for that matter.
JoanP., You are so right about the roles siblings play in the order of their birth. I have six siblings and I am second to the youngest. I am sandwiched in between the baby of the family, and the only boy of the family. I saw myself as the invisible one. "The baby of the family" is most definitely the spoiled one, along with the ONLY boy. My oldest sister was care taker of the "little ones", and a mother figure, always telling us what to do, being incredibly bossy. I remember once my brother put lipstick on her huge stuffed bear's paws her boyfriend gave to her, and when she saw it and no one would confess as to who did it, she stood me, my youngest sister and brother in the corner and never let us out for nearly an hour. Once when my Mom and Step Dad took most of the siblings out of town to visit family and left me in the care of my oldest sister, she took it upon herself to cut and perm my hair. I looked liked I put my finger in a light switch! I was mortified to go to school looking like that. Growing up with my siblings was like the story of "Little Women" with my brother as my best friend, like Lauri was to Jo. Oh what memories were triggered reading your post Joan. lol
I am excited to be going on to Lyme! Now that Mr. Wentworth is on the scene, it's got to get really interesting.
Ciao for now~
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Reading Jane Austen for the first time is a lot of fun. And what a challenge. What a clever writer. What a genius.
You were all there, yesterday, at the talk on Jane Austen by professor John Greenwood. He kept us all spellbound for an hour and a half. Persuasion, I understood him to say, is the interior monologue we do when we consider all the options of a problematical situation. Jane Austen appeared at a time when the rational was giving way to the romantic. And much, much more.
There were about sixty of us listening to his lecture and his expressive readings from Sense and Sensibility. I seemed to recognize all of you among the listeners. Even a few of Austen's characters. I'm sure that was Elizabeth, Anne and Mary sitting together in the second row. Constantly whispering to each other.
JoanP says: 'I still don't know how I feel about her broken engagement.'
Exactly. I can hear Austen thinking: Let's explore this. And started on her novel. Anne seems to have regretted it almost immediately. Within a year or so she rejects Charles Musgrove's proposal of marriage. By then Lady Russell also has second thoughts as she watches Anne losing her youthful bloom.
I can't believe how mercenary they all are. And their preoccupation with social standing. Have things really changed. Marrying for love is the diciest thing in the world. We can hardly trust ourselves in that state.
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Bellemarie: "I saw myself as the invisible one."
That's definitely what Anne is in the Eliot family. Does she ring true to your experience? I can imagine Jane Austen as seeing herself that way, and she was the one in the end supporting some of the family with her writing, as Anne is supporting hers with her common sense and efficiency.
However, unlike Anne, Jane seemed very fond and close to her sister, and one of her brothers.
JONATHAN: what a fun experience! Do give us more tidbits.
"Persuasion, I understood him to say, is the interior monologue we do when we consider all the options of a problematical situation. "
That's fascinating! So, if I understand (and I'm not sure I do), Austen is working over all the plusses and minuses of allowing oneself to be persuaded by others? Let's continue to keep an eye on this.
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A fun way to learn more about Austen's life is by reading a series of detective stories by Stephanie Barron, in which Jane Austen narrates the stories, and solves mysteries. Of course, the mysteries are fictional, as is her sidekick, a dashing young man. But much of what happens is based on her letters and life.
The titles are listed here, and are widely available in libraries and bookstores.
http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/b/stephanie-barron/
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The mysteries should be read in order, as some later ones say too much about what happened in the earlier ones.
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Interesting, Pat - JA 's brother Francis was a Navy man...an Admiral too. Jane understood then first-hand the need for finding suitable housing at short notice. The relationship between Admiral Croft and his demonstrative, loving wife just rubs it in as Anne hears of their love at first sight and short engagement. What is Jane telling us about short engagements here? Does she believe that Anne made a mistake 8 years ago?
Do you think Anne understood that Mrs. Croft was Captain Wentworth's sister as she readied the house for the Crofts - and later the Captain himself? I found myself wondering why he is hanging around Uppercross, a man like him. Was it because he's looking for a wife while on leave? Neither Henrietta nor Louisa seem a good match for him, do they? Do you think he has learned that Anne is visiting Mary there? Is that really why he keeps returning?
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JoanP--JA is the perfect solution for me as to what to call our author. I'm not comfortable either with what she would have been called then, or with "Austen", which would be standard usage now, but JA feels good. People used initials a lot then.
Yes, Anne knew exactly who Mrs. Croft was when Kellynch Hall was rented to the Crofts. When Mr. Shepherd first mentions the admiral as a possible tenant, she knows his rank and where he has been stationed, and who Shepherd is referring to when he mentions Mrs. Croft's brother the clergyman (Captain W's older brother). After Mr. Shepherd leaves, she thinks "A few months more, and he(Captain Wentworth), perhaps, may be walking here. Wentworth is definitely looking for a wife, as he says in the section we are just starting, but I think he is also just happy to enjoy the lively, flirty social atmosphere at Uppercross. And I agree he deserves better than Henrietta or Louisa.
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JA's sailor brothers Francis and Charles became admirals eventually, but at the time she wrote this book, they were closer to the place Wentworth is now, just a little bit farther on, so she definitely understood his problems.
The British navy was in a changing state at this time, and was suffering a kind of public relations crisis. For a long time they had been the magnificent defenders of the British Isles, a big source of public pride, and thought of as even more important than the military. But now they had done too good a job. From the start of the Napoleonic wars, they had done such a magnificent job that they suffered for it. Through a combination of blockades and battles, they had managed to keep the French navy from being much of a threat. Their reward was that, as the war shifted to more land operations, the navy became less popular with the public and the army more so. Now, with the start of peace, large numbers of sailors are re-entering civilian life. What will people think of them?How will they be treated? How will they fare, trying to fit into life on shore?
JA is aware of this, and puts in her plugs for the value of naval men, though by the time the book was finished the problem must have been more or less solved.
I have to put in a patriotic note here. The War of 1812 was sort of a little side issue to the Napoleonic wars, but we totally creamed the British in the few naval battles involved. Sometime when you have half an hour to spare you can get me started on Old Ironsides, USS Constitution. But it'll take a while, because I dearly love that ship, which is still commissioned; I've been on her, and she's magnificent.
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I have the time, Pat. Post away. I would love to hear about those naval battles long ago, especially those involving the USS Constitution. And that reminds me of the book on my shelf I've been meaning to read: Ian W. Tolls, Six Frigates, Which, I see, has a column of references to the Big C in the index. British naval power was so great for so long. It surprises me now to read that officers looked on their careers as an opportunity to enrich themselves with their 'prizes'. With peace around these sailors looked for other prizes, then it's off for more booty on the high seas.
'He is also just happy to enjoy the lively, flirty social atmosphere at Uppercross. And I agree he deserves better than Henrietta or Louisa.'
He would have to be heartless to be enjoying himself.
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"He would have to be heartless to be enjoying himself."
I think he was pretty clueless as to how Anne felt. certainly before they met, and probably afterwards as well.
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Thanks for the perspective on how the public viewed the navy men returning to civilian life at this time, Pat - I have the impression that for Captain Wentworth, the situation is temporary...that he intends to be off to the sea as soon as the opportunity arises. Is that right? What would he do with himself if he did return to civilian life? How do you picture him walking on the beach at Lyme Regis? I can't picture him in anything but his uniform. In fact, I don't see him as a fully developed character - just a uniform - allowing himself to be admired by all those sweet young things.
No, I don't think he noticed Anne at first either...at least he didn't appear to. But how can he have forgotten her? It's only been 8 years since she broke their engagement. Is JA purposely hiding his feelings until another time? Or is he so disciplined that he has successfully shut out that painful time in his life?
Does anyone remember why Henretta suddenly lost interest in the Captain and turned her attention back to Charles Hayter? I thought she and Louisa were vying for the Captain's attention. What persuaded her to leave him to Louisa?
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Captain Wentworth surely means to back to sea--if he can. But since peace has finally come, he might not get the chance for a while, as the active navy will be much reduced. No matter what, if he lives long enough, he will be an admiral. He has already gotten the rank of Post Captain. From that point on, promotions occur in order of seniority, defined as the date you got this rank. I, too, think of him in uniform.
He hasn't forgotten Anne. He took care to let people know he knew her, to avoid being introduced. He is still angry at her, so thinks her more faded than she is. But I agree that he has no idea how she feels about him.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12
Oct 13-17--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6) |
Some things to think about: Chapters 7-12
1. What are Anne's feelings on meeting Wentworth? What are Wentworth's? How do the differences in these feelings reflect the difference in their circumstance?
2. Two married women in this section are Mary and Mrs. Croft. How do they represent two extremes in reacting to the role of wife?
3. What are the two examples of "persuasion" in this section? How do you feel about them?
4. In this book, character is shown by the way people react to the choices and circumstances given them. Give some examples. What other ways might character be defined?
5. Is Wentworth's attitude toward Anne changing? If so, how and why?
Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)
1. In this section, our characters are all scattered and on the move: Lyme, Uppercross, Kellynch, Bath. Why do you think Austen does this? What does this do dramatically to the tone of the book?
2. "Everybody has their taste in noises as well as in other matters". Here, Austen contrasts the noise and bustle of a busy family with the noise and bustle of a busy town. Which do you think Austen preferred? Which do you?
3. At one point, Anne is the last one left at Uppercross, as everyone else has left. Have you ever felt that way? Do you think Austen did in her personal life?
4. Sir Walter says "The worst of Bath was the number of plain women." What are the ways Austen shows Sir Walter to be ridiculous? In what ways does she contrast him to Admiral Croft? Which one is funnier?
5. "The evil of marriage [between Sir Walter and Mrs. Clay] would be much diminished if Elizabeth were also to marry." Why? Why the concern over Mrs. Clay?
6. Why do you think William Eliot renewed his acquaintance with Sir Walter?
7. What do you think of the news in Chapter 18? (Please don't discuss until everyone has read it.)
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
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1. What are Anne's feelings on meeting Wentworth? What are Wentworth's? How do the differences in these feelings reflect the difference in their circumstance?
Anne is very apprehensive in meeting Mr. Wentworth for the first time in eight years. Once they meet he seems polite, yet a bit aloof. I did not get the feeling either of them have renewed feelings for each other at this first meeting. I think it's a normal thing for Anne to think back to the "What ifs". I sense Mr. Wentworth seems a bit protective of Anne, as when he takes the nephew and removes him from Anne's back. He could see the parents were not disciplining him, after Anne asked her nephew to get down off of her. That was a kind gesture on Mr. Wentworth's part.
I'm not sure the two of them will have rekindled love at this point, but I sense Mr. Wentworth is for certain looking for a wife, and there seems to be plenty of women ready and wiling to have him. Anne is such a quiet, reserved person. She is so willing to just hang back and not be a part of anything. I sort of feel a bit sorry for her. Mary just continues to try to be the object of attention, not caring in the least of her sister's feelings. I'm trying very hard to tolerate Mary's behavior. Is JA trying to show us how difficult it is to deal with selfish, self centered sisters?
Ciao for now~
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PatH., Wow, you have piqued my curiosity, and would love to hear more about your experience and knowledge of Old Ironsides/USS Constitution. I am always awed at what members have experienced in their travels, places they live, and history they can share with us. I've traveled no where outside the U.S, except for Canada, and I must say there is so much more I long to see even in the United States. I have a bucket list and Italy and Great Britain are on it. I at least get to learn and visualize these places through the members, and books I read, along with the travel channel.
JoanK., "I think he was pretty clueless as to how Anne felt. certainly before they met, and probably afterwards as well."
I am wondering if he is just now observing the jewel Anne is, and also wondering about the "what if" I'm not so sure if he is clueless of her feelings, or if he is just very protective of his own since his proposal was denied years ago. I notice just at the right times he does something that makes me think he is aware of Anne and the sweet person she is, and feels even more worried about allowing himself to feel for her yet again. Guess time will tell.
I enjoyed the entire interactions of all the characters in Lyme Regis. It left me wanting more.....can't wait to get to the next chapters to see where this is going.
Ciao for now~
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We do not hear the interior views and dialogue Captain Wentworth has with himself so that like a blank slate we can project our ideas for what ever intentions he may have.
I see him almost giddy with the freedom and social surroundings unlike anything he had at sea and now that he is back among civilians he has rank and prestige that he did not have as a younger man. As a younger man he had the bitter pill of not being good enough. Now he is good enough and it is a heady feeling.
As to Anne several things - first she is a reminder of when he was not good enough that he has to come to terms with in a form of forgiveness to those who represented to him proper social expectations. Then he is new to his status among civilians and like anyone needs some time to soak it up. Certainly acknowledging a women who represents a painful experience and as we heard over and over her bloom is gone, he would have to be so committed to her to choose her over these other vital good looking ladies during a time when he is celebrating his new status. I think there is a lot of hurt he has to come to terms with or decide his love is bigger and stronger then the hurt and pain that did not leave when he first went back to the Navy after their break up.
I think it is interesting that Lyme Regis is the scene for this section of the story. At the edge with the sea on one side and the land on the other - the split in the heart of Captain Wentworth - his heart is split between the sea and the land - even the edge of both as if he is subject to the tides that expose either a lot of land painful but with promise of finding a fuller life than his love of the Navy will provide, where he is alone, where he makes a difference and he can practice improving his skills.
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By now most of you have read the section in Lyme?
When I first read Persuasion, I had a lot of trouble trying to visualize the Cobb, and the fateful steps. Pictures make it clear. The Cobb is a curving seawall, extending out into the water. You can walk along its wide top and get splendid views, but if it's too windy, you walk out along the wider base. Steps lead up from the lower part to the top of the wall.
Here's a gallery of Lyme Regis pictures that makes it clear. The first two pictures are the Cobb, and the seventh is the steps. Click on a picture to enlarge it.
http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/dorset/Lyme-Regis-Photos-Cobb.htm (http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/dorset/Lyme-Regis-Photos-Cobb.htm)
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Is Anne still in love with Frederick Wentworth? Can anyone doubt it? There it is in her past, in her summertime. Now she finds herself in the autumn of her life, with her thousand literary quotations about that beautiful but melancholy season.
Frederick returns with a splendid naval record and considerable wealth. What a wonderful plot, bringing these two together after seven years. Can anyone doubt that he would still have feelings about his first love? But he's not inclined to show them. Or is he?
How to rekindle the flame. This is worth watching.
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Amazing pictures of Lyme Regis, PatH., thank you so much! It makes me want to walk their paths with them!
I definitely think Mr. Wentworth is keeping his eyes on Anne, and I also feel he is seeing how Mary is taking advantage of Anne's kindness. Anne deserves happiness and love, and I sense it will be with Mr. Wentworth.
Ciao for now~
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Great photos - so many authors that use this harbor in their story - the town or at least the harbor should get a plaque as a literary landmark
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I was always rather impatient with the scene on the steps at Lyme. But now I see them, I feel different. I sure wouldn't want to walk down them in long skirts, and probably quite unsuitable shoes:
"http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/dorset/Lyme-Regis-Photos/Lyme-Regis-Photo-14.htm
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BARB: "I see him [Captain Wentworth] almost giddy with the freedom and social surroundings unlike anything he had at sea and now that he is back among civilians he has rank and prestige that he did not have as a younger man. As a younger man he had the bitter pill of not being good enough. Now he is good enough and it is a heady feeling."
that's an excellent point! I never thought of that, but now you say it, it sounds right. And yet with time, his common sense takes over, and he starts to realize that all that glitters is not gold.
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I started to wonder what kind of shoes the women would be wearing to walk on the cobb. Here are some choices:
https://www.google.com/search?q=jane+austen+shoes&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OxlXUunsJua6igLpzIHwAw&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=853&bih=585&dpr=1
Oh, my: didn't they squeeze the toes. I always suffered when narrow toed shoes were "in". My feet just aren't shaped that way!
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Now try to imagine those shoes coming down those steps! I thought that the Captain had been finding Louisa mature and sensible for her age...until she began to play on the steps, jumping into his arms. So much fun, she did it again! I think his opinion of her might change, just as Anne's quiet and capable handling of the whole situation does not escape his attention...
Also, isn't it amazing how the sea breezes can bring back the bloom to one's cheeks?
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Looking at those steps, I think jumping might be less dangerous than walking down them. Later, when they are in Bath, there is a mention of Anne's boots, and a footnote that boots were becoming fashionable, so let's hope that's what the women were wearing.
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(Mary)"Captain Wentworth is not very gallant by you, Anne, though he was so attentive to me. Henrietta asked him what he thought of you, when they went away, and he said: :"You were so altered he should not have known you again." Mary had no feelings to make her respect her sister's in a common way, but she was perfectly unsuspicious of being inflicting any peculiar wound. "Altered beyond his knowledge." Anne fully submitted, in silent, deep mortification. Doubtless it was so, and she could take no revenge, for he was not altered, or not for the worse. She had already acknowledged it to herself, and she could not think differently, let him think of her as he would. No: the years which had destroyed her youth and bloom had given him a more glowing, manly, open look, in no respect lessening his personal advantages. She had seen the same Frederick Wentworth.
She had given him up to oblige others. It had been the effect of over-persuasion. It had been weakness and timidity.
He had been warmly attached to her, and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal; but, except from some natural sensation of curiosity, he had no desire of meeting her again. Her power with him was gone for ever.
It was now his object to marry. He was rich, and being turned on shore, fully intended to settle as soon as he could be properly tempted; actually looking round, ready to fall in love with all the speed which a clear head and quick taste could allow. He had a heart for either of the Miss Musgroves, if they could catch it; a heart, in short, for any pleasing young woman who came in his way, excepting Anne Elliot. This was his only secret exception, when he said to his sister, in answer to her suppositions:
"Yes, here I am Sophia, quite ready to make a foolish match. Anybody between fifteen and thirty may have me for asking. A little beauty, and a few smiles, and a few compliments to the navy, and I am a lost man. Should not this be enough for a sailor, who has no society among women to make him nice?" He said it, she knew, to be contradicted. His bright proud eye spoke the happy conviction that he was nice; and Anne Elliot was not out of his thoughts, when he more than seriously described the woman he should wish to meet with. "A strong mind, with sweetness of manner," made the first and last of the description. "That is a woman I want," said he. "Something a little inferior I shall of course put up with, but it must not be much. If I am a fool, I shall be a fool indeed, for I have thought on the subject more than most men."
I can see by these paragraphs especially the parts I highlighted, Anne and Frederick still love each other after all the years apart. Now we have to see just if and how they are able to get back with each other. JA has obviously set the scene for a cat and mouse chase....as in all good love stories.
There are plenty of women to get in between the two of them, and Captain Benwick seems to be a bit of a distraction for Anne, so will their pride, hurt and persuasion once again keep them apart. Will Anne be strong minded with sweetness of manner to get her guy?
Ciao for now~
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Nice analysis, Bellamarie. Anne definitely still loves Frederick, and he thinks he's over her, but may be fooling himself.
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Much to think about here, as Captain Wentworth has discovered. And fooling himself!!! So is Anne. It's not the sea breezes that she finds exhilarating. Isn't she being given a lot of opportunities to show off a strong mind with sweetness of manner? It's not lost on the captain.
A love story? How are we ever going to match up all the singles who are showing up?
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Are people ready to move on tomorrow? If so, let's take the next 6 chapters. My two books are numbered differently. In one, this would be Chapters 13 to 18; In the other, it would be Book 2, Chapters 1 to 6.
We will see more of the Crofts, then move on to Bath, where we will meet some new characters.
There is a new development in the last of these chapters, so I suggest we don't say anything about Chapter 18 (or 6) at first, to be sure everyone has gotten there.
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My next chapters would be 13 - 18. I will begin reading them now, so will be ready to discuss them tomorrow as suggested.
Ciao for now~
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You will be tempted to read on and finish the book. Please don't. Let's wait and finish it together.
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I am still trudging along. I am finding the book rather boring; but it may just be the mood I am in. I remember liking it when I first read it many years ago.
Sally
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I promise NOT to finish the last chapters JoanK. I love a good ending, and hate reading ahead and spoiling it. ;)
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Sally, if you really can't stand the book, but want to follow the discussion, you could try renting the 1995 movie with Amanda Root and Ciaran Hinds. It's they only version I know that's pretty accurate, though of course it has to leave out stuff.
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If you do get the DVD, the current section takes us through Anne's first visit to Mrs. Smith, in Bath, and a conversation immediately afterward between Anne and Admiral Croft. Don't go farther than that.
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First readings may very often be the best. Be that as it may, I'm happy that I've waited for Jane Austen to cap off a lifetime of reading. I might have lived my life differently if I had read her as a young man. I can see the making of many an ideal English gentleman as seen through the eyes of her characters and her own comments. He makes an entrance in Lyme as Mr Elliot.
Marvellous place, that Lyme Regis. I enjoyed the photos. I'm a bit sceptical about finding a fossil imprint on the beach, but it does look marvellous. And then the famous steps where Louisa took her fall. I hope it's not a spoiler when I say that the fall marks the turning point in the novel.
I was surprised to hear of how few ladies were to be seen in Bath. Mostly 'scares', as seen by Sir Walter.
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Don't forget Sir Walter's exacting standards. There are plenty of ladies, just none he approves of.
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Since we'll be moving to Bath, we might want to know what it looks like. You can still see a lot of what Austen would have seen.
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg)
Royal Crescent, Bath
I like this picture, because it shows the backs of houses, which most don't. It's a town built to a philosophy, visible here. These are rich people, used to country estates. The whole half-circle of row houses has a uniform facade, with no visible division between the units (except each one has its own door). This makes it look like one grand impressive building, the style the people would like to think they live in. From the back, you can see the actual size of the units. When Anne comes to Bath, Elizabeth proudly shows off their house, "undoubtedly the best in Camden-Place", and Anne wonders that Elizabeth, who had been mistress of Kellynch-Hall, can boast of the space "between two walls, perhaps thirty feet asunder".
You can also see the patches of nature, a part of the Georgian ideal.
Here's a link to a larger image of the same picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg)
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Wonderful. We never see the backyards in any of the shows that feature the fronts, either. At least, I don't remember seeing any. That is the kind of house I would have liked a townhouse with a long narrow backyard and stone walls between me and my neighbors, preferably higher that most of those seem to be. I've always liked the gardens set in such a venue, with vines and trained shrubs up against the walls, maybe a small fish pond and/or statuary, a deck and/or gazebo, and a flagstone path.
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And a gardener to do the work.
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JONATHAN: "First readings may very often be the best. Be that as it may, I'm happy that I've waited for Jane Austen to cap off a lifetime of reading."
I envy you, reading it for the first time!
The crescent shaped building in the foreground is called (wait for it) "The Crescent", and is well known. I don't think it's mentioned in the book, but the movie of Persuasion that Pat mentioned has a key scene filmed there.
I was talking to my daughter about Bath this morning. A confirmed Austen addict, when in England she passed up a chance to visit Shakespeare's birthplace to visit Bath instead. She said the thing that surprised her was how small it is. Most of the places mentioned in the book are very close together. the house where Austen herself lived is a little further, about a mile.
The other thing of note is that all of the buildings are built of a stone that is quarried nearby giving the town a uniform appearance, as can be seen in the picture. The crescent is on top of a hill, and the view is magnificent.
The baths themselves were built by the Romans. The "Pump Room" is the center of social activity: it has a fountain in the middle, and from that, people "took (i.e. drank) the water" which was supposed to have medicinal qualities. When my daughter was there, you could still do that: she said the water tasted so bad, she only took one sip. Now, they've decided that there is something harmful in it, and won't let people drink it. They serve "tea" in the pump room.
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I went to Bath once, in 1958. It was too early for me, as I didn't then have as much appreciation for architecture as I do now. It was also too early for Bath, as it was before they cleaned up the buildings. They were a dark, sooty grey from many years of coal burning, and you could see nothing of the color of that beautiful golden local stone.
I had a good time anyway. I didn't even have the courage to taste the water though, after getting a smell of it.
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The picture of Bath is so neat to see! Thank you PatH., for sharing this. Being a bit OCD, I of course love the unison of the buildings. It does look a bit uppity, and that would explain Elizabeth and her father being a bit offended with Anne going to see an old school mate in a part of town they see beneath their standards. Sir Walter does appear to be a bit of a snob, especially when he said there are few women suitable. Maybe that's why he has remained single since his wife's death. I saw a side of Elizabeth I did not much care for, when she thought Anne should skip seeing her crippled friend in order to go to a party with them. Anne sure does seem to be the most sensitive and caring daughter of the three.
Before discussing some interesting parts of these next chapters, I have to ask what on earth is all the prattle about the Countess and her daughter about? Was it just me or did it seem not to make any sense whatsoever? I was getting the feeling that JA knew her days were limited, and it appears as though in this book, she did bring characters into the story that did not seem to fit nor have much importance at all, except for me personally wondering if JA was wandering, and trying to add people from her own life into the characters in this novel. It made keeping up with the characters of importance difficult. I did find parts of these next chapters a bit dragging out, and boring as Sally mentioned.
I had my two grandkids spend the day/night with me, so I am a bit tired today, so I won't bother trying to post anything more until I have had rest, and time to make a little more sense out of these chapters.
Ciao for now~
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Before discussing some interesting parts of these next chapters, I have to ask what on earth is all the prattle about the Countess and her daughter about? Was it just me or did it seem not to make any sense whatsoever?
I love it when you ask questions I don't know the answer to. I think this is designed to show the snobbery of Sir Walter and Elizabeth. Lady Dalrymple is a whole level above Sir Walter on the snob scale. (A baronet is just below being nobility, and a viscountess is noble.) So they suck up to her just for the snob advantage. Later, important things happen at a concert under Lady Dalrymple's patronage, but given the social setup at Bath, many other events would work as well.
Anybody else--what do you think?
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It was amusing to me to see the snobbish Sir Walter make such an allowance for Mrs. Clay. The importance of the titled Dalrumples? I agree, Pat - another example of the importance Sir Walter and Elizabeth attached to titles... Even Lady Russell seems impressed by the future baronet...Anne to her credit sees through all of them.
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PatH., "So they suck up to her just for the snob advantage." Ah ha! Yes, I suppose you are right, I was a bit tired last night while reading those chapters, after getting my two sweet little grandchildren to bed, so while reading this I thought since it went no further...what does this have to do with anything. Much ado about nothing.
Lady Russell is proving to not have such a good judge in character after all, considering she put her faith in Mr. Elliot for Anne to marry, with of course, the intent of finally having Anne take the rightful place at Kellynch, fill her mother's place and be wealthy. Yes, JoanP., Anne does seem to have the insight into the real character of people, with her innocence and honesty. I sense our Anne has matured, and grown since she was persuaded years ago, and now I am certain she is not going to allow anyone persuade her to do anything anymore. Unless, it is Frederick convincing her to say yes, to his proposal. What were those words Frederick used, "strong minded with sweetness of manner", that is proving to be Anne, and I sense he has seen it, since he returned from the Navy.
I'm off to bed, to get a good night sleep. Tomorrow I am going to go over my many notes I scribbled down last night, trying not to awaken the sleeping angels. I had them all day yesterday, all night, we went to church together and when my son and daughter in law were walking them out of the church, sweet little Zoey began crying to go back to Nonnie & Papa's house. lol
Ciao for now~
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1. In this section, our characters are all scattered and on the move: Lyme, Uppercross, Kellynch, Bath. Why do you think Austen does this? What does this do dramatically to the tone of the book?
When considering this first question, I couldn't help but notice that we are following Anne from one of these places to the next. There's only one other character following her...is it too much of a coincidence that Captain Wentworth's turns up wherever Anne is?
I also got the impression that William Elliot turned up in Bath because he learned Anne would be there. He noticed her in Lyme Regis. She's turned quite a few heads, without noticing. I don't think Mr. Elliot is interested in Elizabeth at all. He says all the right things...but Anne sees through him.
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Do you get the feeling that all this deciphering what words and actions mean to these characters and then how they should proceed is not much different than reading Tom Clancy's Red October
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William Elliot had admired Anne in Lyme, but didn't know who she was. When they met again in Bath, he was visibly surprised at seeing her.
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BELLE: after a day of grandchildren, you're doing well if you can think at all! At least, that's the way I feel, tho I love them madly. Did you notice Mrs. Russell's reaction after a dinner with Mary's children? She couldn't stand the noise! But she didn't turn a! hair at the noise of noisy Bath, which was just as loud. I laughed and laughed at that.
BARB" Do you get the feeling that all this deciphering what words and actions mean to these characters and then how they should proceed is not much different than reading Tom Clancy's Red October?"
How interesting! I haven't read Clancy, so can't comment. What do others think?
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JOANP: " I couldn't help but notice that we are following Anne from one of these places to the next. There's only one other character following her...is it too much of a coincidence that Captain Wentworth's turns up wherever Anne is?"
No, I didn't notice! How interesting.
About the structure of this book: I feel as if Austen is quietly building an ordered structure of blocks. When Louisa falls, it's as if she grabbed all the blocks and threw them into the air, to land in new ways and combinations. What do you think?
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As we follow Anne around to different places, we are also watching a progression of lifestyles and manners. We start with the elegant and lavish Kellynch, and the formality of Sir Walter and Elizabeth.
On to Uppercross, where the Musgroves live in a good style, but not as formal, and definitely old-fashioned. Their daughters are importing the latest styles, though, and becoming more elegant and fashionable. Charles and Mary have less money but more elegance than his parents. The cottage is in the latest style (there was a cottage craze at the time), and although they don't have a carriage, Charles has a curricle, which is a small, light open vehicle, very stylish at the time. They have breakfast later than the Musgroves too, which is an upper class thing to do. The manners at Uppercross are more relaxed, casual and open, and very inclusive. No one can manage to do anything without involve everyone else.
At Lyme we see the end of the scale. The Harvilles are not well off, and live in a small, crowded house. Their manners are simpler, warm, open and friendly, very willing to include Wentworth's friends. Anne finds them delightful.
How does Anne behave in these different environments? She fits in, while remaining herself, with her low-key very good manners, the moving backdrop behind her highlighting her quiet, gentle personality.
I'm not an expert on details of fashionable life in 1814, but the annotated book I have is full of such things, and although the overall picture is clear enough anyway, it adds some richness to learn more about the background.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12
Oct 13-18--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)
Oct 19-?--Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12) |
Some things to think about: Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)
1. In this section, our characters are all scattered and on the move: Lyme, Uppercross, Kellynch, Bath. Why do you think Austen does this? What does this do dramatically to the tone of the book?
2. "Everybody has their taste in noises as well as in other matters". Here, Austen contrasts the noise and bustle of a busy family with the noise and bustle of a busy town. Which do you think Austen preferred? Which do you?
3. At one point, Anne is the last one left at Uppercross, as everyone else has left. Have you ever felt that way? Do you think Austen did in her personal life?
4. Sir Walter says "The worst of Bath was the number of plain women." What are the ways Austen shows Sir Walter to be ridiculous? In what ways does she contrast him to Admiral Croft? Which one is funnier?
5. "The evil of marriage [between Sir Walter and Mrs. Clay] would be much diminished if Elizabeth were also to marry." Why? Why the concern over Mrs. Clay?
6. Why do you think William Eliot renewed his acquaintance with Sir Walter?
7. What do you think of the news in Chapter 18? (Please don't discuss until everyone has read it.)
Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)
1. How does Austen maintain suspense in this last section? Did you feel it as you read? What did you feel?
2. Anne doesn't take action herself, but waits for others. Why?
3. When Wentworth talks to Anne, she feels "agitation, pain, pleasure, a something between delight and misery." Have you ever felt like that? Under what circumstances?
4. Wentworth says "Bentwick is something more [than amiable, sweet-tempered and understanding]. He is a clever man, a reading man." But Admiral Croft says "His reading has done him no harm, for he has fought as well as read."Are we "something more" because we are reading people? Does it do us harm?
5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once? Is this realistic?
6. [Women] "certainly do not forget you [men] as easily as you forget us. It is, perhaps, our fate rather than our merit." Do you agree?
7. In none of Austen's books does she write dialog declaring love. Why do you think this is? What did you think of the device Austen uses instead?
8. Is Anne too good to be true?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg)
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
JoanK., Now isn't that an interesting analogy, building blocks. It automatically brought the image of the picture of the houses in Bath to my mind. All blocks built in a perfect crescent. Yet, what a menagerie, they appear to be.
I could not understand why Charles was telling Anne how Mr. Benwick was so smitten with her, yet Mary played it off as though he never even seemed the least bit interested in Anne. What was Charles purpose of telling Anne how much Mr. Benwick liked her? Then we learn from Admiral Croft, while walking with Anne, that Louisa Musgrove is to marry Mr. Benwick. Mary sure has a jealousy for any man who dares to give any sign of attention to Anne.
JoanP., " I couldn't help but notice that we are following Anne from one of these places to the next. There's only one other character following her...is it too much of a coincidence that Captain Wentworth's turns up wherever Anne is?"
Actually, if you have noticed, Mr. Wentworth has for some reason dropped out of the picture.....While Admiral Croft and Anne are walking in Bath he tells Anne,
pg. 674 "Well, this Louisa, we all thought, you know, was to marry Frederick. He was courting her week after week. The only wonder was, what they could be waiting for, till the business at Lyme came; then, indeed, it was clear enough that they must wait til her brain was set to right. But even then there was something odd in their way of going on. Instead of staying at Lyme, he went off to Plymouth, and then he went off to see Edward. When we came back from Minehead he was gone down to Edward's, and there he has been ever since. We have seen nothing of him since November. Even Sophy could not understand it. But now, the matter has taken the strangest turn of all; for this young lady, this same Miss Musgrove, instead of being to marry Frederick, is to marry James Benwick."
And now, the Admiral shows his matchmaking skills in this paragraph:
"Poor Frederick!" said he, at last. "Now he must begin all over again with somebody else. I think we must get him to Bath. Sophy must write, and beg him to come to Bath. Here are pretty girls enough, I am sure. It would be of no use to go to Uppercross again, for that other Miss Musgrove, I find, is bespoken by her cousin, the young parson. Do not you think, Miss Elliot, we had better try to get him to Bath?'
I laughed so much, just imagining the Admiral smirking, as he says this to Anne. ;D I suspect, he and Sophy from the very start, have been hoping, to get Anne and Frederick together.
So, let's see if Mrs. Croft is successful in "begging" Frederick to come to Bath. I'm supposing it won't take much to convince him to come, knowing Anne is there.
Talk about name dropping, how many people did Admiral Croft stop to say hello to, while walking with Anne? It's the who's who, in these chapters. ::)
Barb, I have seen the movie, Red October, but never read the book. I don't remember much of the movie.
JoanK., Yes, we love our little grandchildren with all our hearts, but they can wear us out. How on earth did Mary take the Harvells' children and keep them such a long time, when she barely could manage her own two sons? Now, that sure had me stumped! But then I think it said they spent much time, with the Musgroves.
Ciao for now~
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I like all your impressions. 'All things are up in the air.' 'It's all over the map.' 'A progression of lifestyles and manners.'
Isn't the book all about finding a new home for Anne? She admits that she feels most comfortable at Lyme. The people, the place. Too much of a white glare in Bath. (Things were still new. Soot and the weather had not turned it gray yet.) Kellynch was so claustraphobic. Admiral Croft's feeling was that one couldn't get away from oneself.
I can see where Tom Clancy might have picked up some writing ideas in Austen's style. There are complexities and alternatives everywhere, whether it's marital styles or child raising, with everyone knowing how it's done best.
Will we ever find out what really brought Louisa and Captain Benwick together. Mary went for long walks along the beach with him and found him boring. Letting Louisa fall was certainly a heartless way of dropping her. Can Captain Wentworth be trusted. A helluva way of making love, as the Admiral put it.
Do you find all this boring? Try to determine where you would fit in, in this strange melange or milieu of English society. Are there any good biographies of Jane Austen out there. I'm interested in the mind behind this addictive writing.
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Delightful post, Bella. It left me chuckling. Exactly. Admiral Croft shows no hesitation in talking to anyone.
What did you think of the all the fault-finding among themselves about child-rearing? With nobody getting it right. And everything that happens, or is said, makes an impression on Anne. I hope she finds her own mind in all this.
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PatH., You have done a great job in keeping up with all the places, homes, families and ways of life. And yes, these people must have family and friends around them at all times. Phew...I am such a person who needs my space and quiet time after a day of children in my day care. I could not imagine being around so many people ALL the time. At one point when more new characters were being introduced so fast in these last chapters, I thought I might go mad! It was like the 4th of July, firecrackers were popping up one after another. That is when I was wondering if our dear JA was trying to fit in as many of her friends and family into this last novel, and there was an urgency to do it before she came to the end of the story. PatH., you would make a perfect hostess, being able to know and keep up with so many people. I also love how you have the knowledge, and point out the fashion, craze and styles of the 1800's. I totally missed the curricle, Charles is buzzing about in.
Anne is very adaptable, patient, kind and caring. She is willing to help others, leaving her life behind, or on hold for the sake of others. Nothing seems to rattle her, except when she has to be in the presence of dear Mr. Wentworth.
Jonathon, I just was shaking my head with all the faultfinding among themselves about child-rearing. I taught in a private school, K-8, still teaching CCD (religion classes), own my in home daycare, raised three children and have six grand children, and I am not sure there is anyone other than Anne I would trust any children with.
I feel, Anne has found a mind of her own, especially after realizing listening to Mrs. Russell's objections to her marrying Frederick eight years ago may have been a mistake, and now Mrs. Russell is approving of Mr. Elliot, who Anne in her own mind, is questioning his character with good reason. Can't wait to see how Mrs. Russell will react, if and when Anne does speak her own mind.
Ciao for now~
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Finally finished the last of this reading section last night - I must say I dragged my feet because I think the first page or so of this Part II was not an easy read and difficult to understand so I just read through it till I got to where it was clear. I was going to go back and see if I could sort it out and then was so annoyed decided not to.
I did enjoy the conversation between Mr. Elliot and Anne that included her interior dialogue about making contacts to enrich yourself - could not help but realize it is that way still. Anyone in business must and is delighted when they make contact with someone who can easily afford their product or services and then works to allow others to know about that relationship hoping to profit from more contacts. It is the same with facebook and twitter - the higher up the foodchain the prestige adds to your life if only to have news to share with those on your economic and social level.
We may be outraged at those who are really high in the foodchain and have very definite ideas how they should spend their money and time but like when in High School enjoying the nod of recognition from the star football player we use those connections that later we call the Good OL'Boy way of life to get jobs and even to gain admission to various Universities for our kids - the saying still seems to hold - it is not what you know but who you know and we still have folks who feel this is an unsavory aspect of human nature.
Well I can see it and just never thought - when you have a mortgage to pay or a family to feed or a retirement to fund you do not want to give your work away for free - the many who want but do not have the where with all or credit to get what they want are easy pickings and a lot of time and energy to help them is wasted since there is no sale and most do not change their lifestyle to accommodate a future sale. And so economics and your own financial need says to make contact with those who can pay or obtain credit and see if you can do a good enough job that you can ask them to recommend more of their friends - I see this as what Anne did not understand and Mr. Elliot was trying to point out to her. But then, Anne is not a bread earner here except to depend on others to provide her with a home.
Artists are known not to be business wise and so I can see how Jane Austen would focus on her craft as the way to advance her earning power however, from what we read she did not sell all her stories while she was alive - Did she really see herself as the breadwinner for herself and her sister - was this a hobby or was there no way for a woman of her class to earn money - maybe as a teacher -
I wonder if the character Mrs. Russell in real life would have been paid for her care of the Elliot girls over the years - all to say, I have friends today that hold themselves aloft from making, what they believe is false friendships because of someone's greater status or wealth and yet, I notice when they want something done they are pleased they know personally the mayor, or a member of the city council, or the president of the neighborhood association, or the owner of a small business who could hire one of their grandchildren - what is it that we hold our nose at playing the power game and yet, we play the game when we need influence.
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I can see how Jane Austen would focus on her craft as the way to advance her earning power however, from what we read she did not sell all her stories while she was alive - Did she really see herself as the breadwinner for herself and her sister - was this a hobby or was there no way for a woman of her class to earn money - maybe as a teacher -
There were almost no ways considered proper for a woman of JAs class to pull in money. She was lucky to have a salable skill. She wrote because it was in her bones; she started when she was just a child and the family was well off. But she marketed them to help with family expenses.
I don't know what else she could have done. Some women became governesses, but I think mostly they started when they were younger, and that would have meant living away from the family, where she was needed to help run the household.
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I'm finding this a supremely sophisticated piece of writing. If she were writing today, what kind of novel would she be writing? That question comes to mind after reading your post, Barb. There were other women writing, but Jane Austen certainly stands out, in showing that women were finding a voice. How far we have come. Much of the best wrting today is being done by women, whether it's literary, news gathering, commentary, or scholarly stuff.
Several weeks ago a college instructor here in Toronto, made himself the talk of the town, when he was caught saying he had no use for female writing and would never teach it. And he deplored the passing of such macho stuff as Hemingway might write. Nothing has been heard from him since Alice Monroe won the Nobel Prize.
Austen's Bath scene is incomparable. From the invalid, Mrs Smith, getting the news from her nurse, in Chapter 17, and telling Anne about it:
'Call it gossip if you will; but when nurse Rooke has half an hour's leisure to bestow on me, she is sure to have something to relate that is entertaining and profitable, something that makes one know one's species better. One likes to hear what is going on, to be au fait as to the newest modes of being trifling and silly. To me, who lives so much alone, her conversation I assure you is a treat.'
The same could be said for the book. It's a treat.
'I am no match-maker, as you well know,' said Lady Russell.
Ha!!! In the next breath she sees Anne as Lady Elliot, but the thought discomfits Anne. Is Lady Russell really out to ruin Anne's life?
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BARB: " I have friends today that hold themselves aloft from making, what they believe is false friendships because of someone's greater status or wealth and yet, I notice when they want something done they are pleased they know personally the mayor, or a member of the city council..."
Good point!
JONATHAN: " Is Lady Russell really out to ruin Anne's life?" No, but we begin to see that her advice is not as good as she (and previously Anne) thought it was.
All of the advice she gives throughout the book is very practical, based on getting as much financial security as possible for her friends. She and Sir Walter are like polar opposites of values: the one seeing only appearance and status, the other only the practicalities of supporting oneself. It's amazing that Anne, growing up with those two advisors, can see what they see, but also what they don't.
Austen, herself, it seems to me, is a mix of Anne and Lady Russell. She sees the things of the heart and mind as supremely important, yet, having struggled with poverty all her life, money is never very far away from her thoughts. Her philosophy seems to be "Be a good person, do what's right, and the money will come."
I wish that were true!
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Jonathan, I don't think Lady Russell "wants" to ruin Anne's life. I think Lady Russell sees the security of settling Anne into Kellynch. She wants the family to remain in Kellynch, and marrying Anne off to Mr. Elliot was the one way Mrs. Russell could make that happen.
I have to say I am hoping the last chapters reveal more about who, what, when, where, how and why all these characters were introduced and quickly paired up at the last second with the most unlikely, and some insight into more of the main characters.
For some reason at this point I am baffled and melancholy with where this story is at. Maybe I have missed something. Barb, your post was very deep, and I never had the introspective to even see as much as you pointed out. I guess all these people, being about the who's who, just did not impress me whatsoever. I have always expected to attach myself to a character/characters and enjoy the place they are, and wait and watch for the purpose and progression of the story. I just have not gotten that from any of the characters, because I feel JA introduced way too many characters into the novel, for too short a time. Even though Anne, for me, has been the main character, I have not been able to even attach myself to her, because she has not stayed in one place long enough for me to really get to feel I know her. All these characters have been like butterflies to me, flitting and fluttering, around but just when you want to really appreciate and see them, off they go, just like a butterfly. Never really getting to soak up enough time with one, before its gone. I'm just feeling a bit cheated.
Barb, I felt exactly like you with the first pages of these assigned chapters. I struggled to keep going, and if I were honest, I can say I flipped a few pages, because of boredom and uninterested. I did actually think about going back to see what I missed and decided not to. If it weren't for the Admiral and Anne's walk and conversation I would have felt there just was nothing here. I hope the last three chapters don't disappoint me, as much as these have. After reading Pride and Prejudice, before beginning Persuasion, I may have been expecting so much more, because I truly loved Pride and Prejudice.
Ciao for now~
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Cheer up, Bellamarie, the bad stretch is over. We've met all the players now, and, with the dramatic news in Chapter 18, things are going to heat up a bit.
We won't see much more of Lady Dalrymple and Miss Carteret. I think their main purpose was to show up the attitudes of Sir Walter and Elizabeth. Sir W and E don't expect any monetary advantage from the acquaintance, they want to be more impressive in their social circles by hobnobbing with nobility. This is meant to contrast with Anne's idea of friendship as a meaningful exchange of ideas, learning from others, improving oneself, and getting encouragement with one's problems.
When I first read Persuasion, I had an awful time keeping Henrietta and Louisa straight. That's pretty crucial. Some of the first part doesn't make sense if you mix them up, but I really had to work at it.
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I think we can assume everyone has read Chapter 18 (or 2, 6) by now. What do you think of this development? Is it realistic? What went on here?
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'baffled and melancholy, bored, not interested...why all these characters... introduced and quickly paired up at the last second'
A lot of good criticisms, Bella. And I can't help feeling that the author was of the same mind when she brought in Mrs Smith and the nurse with all the gossip. Is that what my book is turning into, she must have asked herself. And immediately Anne becomes the author's mouthpiece, with her impatience with all the gossip. The gossip could be worth listening to if one could catch 'the varieties of human nature in instances of ardent, disinterested, self-denying attachment, of heroism, fortitude, patience, resignation - of all the conflicts and all the sacrifices that ennoble us most.' (p168)
Doesn't that leave you with a feeling that Jane Austen was trying to break out of a shell midway through her book?
All this frantic activity to set out on the matrimonial seas. And then I see the admiral shaking his head at the unseaworthy boat in the picture in the window.
I've read of one critic's answer to the question of seeing Jane Austen in Anne. Could Anne have written Pride and Predjudice?
Persuasion turned out to be her swan song.
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'Realistic' is out of the question, Pat.
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Yes, PatH., I dare say I have finished chapter 18, and find Mary's letter to be first off, very complaining, and feeling she has been left all to herself.
pg. 670 "I have not had a creature call on me since the second week of January, except Charles Hayter, who has been calling much oftener than was welcome." Then she goes on to say, "I am glad you find Mr. Elliot so agreeable, and wish I could be acquainted with him too; but I have my usual luck: I am always out of the way when anything desirable is going on; always the last of my family to be noticed. What an immense time Mrs. Clay has been staying with Elizabeth! Does she never mean to go away? But, Perhaps, if she were to leave the room vacant, we might not be invited. Let me know what you think of this. I do not expect my children to be asked, you know, I can leave them at the Great House very well, for a month or six weeks."
I found this a bit ironic, for Mary to say she is willing to leave her children for such a long time, when she had earlier criticized the Harvilles for leaving their children so long. And of course, she had to make Anne feel more sorry for her, by saying she does not feel well, "I am sorry to say that I am very far from well; and Jenimna has just told me that the butcher says there is a bad sore-throat very much about. I dare say I shall catch it; and my sore-throats, you know, are always worse than anybody's"
This family is so self indulging, Elizabeth and Sir Walter could care less how Mary, Charles and the children are doing. All they care about is that the Crofts are in Bath, and they do not want to be put out, or embarrassed by them.
"I suspect," said Sir Walter, cooly, "that Admiral Croft will be best known in Bath as the renter of Kellynch Hall. Elizabeth, may we venture to present him and his wife in Laura Place?" "Oh no! I think not. Situated as we are with Lady Dalrymple, cousins, we ought to be very careful not to embarrass her with acquaintances she might not approve. If we were not related it would not signify; but as cousins, she would feel scrupulous as to any proposal of ours. We had better leave the Crofts to find their own level. There are some odd-looking men walking about here, who, I am told, are sailors. The Crofts will associate with them. This was Sir Walter and Elizabeth's share of interest in the letter.."
What was even more funny is this: "The Crofts new quite as many people in Bath as they wished for, and considered their intercourse with the Elliots as a mere matter of form, and not in the least likely to afford them any pleasure."
So it's not only, the who knows who, in Bath, but it's, who is snubbing who?
PatH., "This is meant to contrast with Anne's idea of friendship as a meaningful exchange of ideas, learning from others, improving oneself, and getting encouragement with one's problems."
Ughhhh.....personally, I would have a very difficult time in spending any amount of time with any of them. Run, Anne, run!!!! Do you suppose Mr. Wentworth became bored with being around these type of people, and that is why he left? He can clearly see, Anne is so drastically different.
Jonathan, We were writing at the same time. You ask, "Could Anne have written Pride and Predjudice?"
NO!, emphatically, NO! Pride and Prejudice was a light, fun, easy to read story. I absolutely could not see Anne writing it, because she is too complacent. Anne is sitting back letting life pass her by. She may have a mind of her own, but I am waiting for her to have a voice of her own and speak up to all this nonsense. I have never been a big fan of snobbery or gossip. Not a fan of always having and needing someone around me at all times, waking up to people at my breakfast table and turning in after a ball or party. I love being with people, but I must say I get bored easily with those who are fake and frivolous. I actually like Admiral Croft. He is a no nonsense kind of guy. He calls it like it is.
You mention Anne becomes the author's mouthpiece, and is finally fed up with all the gossip. Hmmmm....have you read ahead, because I am still waiting. lololol :o :o :o
Ciao for now~
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Admiral Croft to Anne, on their walk: 'Do you not think, Miss Eliot, we had better try to get Captain Wentworth to Bath?'
And Anne: 'She had some feelings which she was ashamed to investigate. They were too much like joy, senseless joy.' from Chapter 18
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Jonathan, "All this frantic activity to set out on the matrimonial seas. And then I see the admiral shaking his head at the unseaworthy boat in the picture in the window."
Did I miss this somewhere in chapter 18? tsk tsk.....lolol
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This is supposed to be our last day on this section, but let's give it one more day. We haven't heard from everyone yet, and some of you may need a break. So we'll start discussing the end of the book (Chapter 19 on) on the 19th (very appropriate!)
Persuasion is definitely not as funny and optimistic as A's other books -- remember, she was sick when she wrote it (dying as it turned out, although I don't know if she knew that). But for those of us who love it, it definitely has something. I'm sorry some of you are struggling with it, or don't like it.
I especially love the part coming up (the last four chapters). What will Austen do with our lovers now? Will they stumble their way toward each other? Or be ships that pass in the night? Stay tuned!
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Oh JoanK, please forgive me if I have given the impression I don't like the book. I truly have enjoyed it, these last chapters were just a bit of a struggle for me. I am expecting the last chapters will be well worth the wait. I remember when I read JA's Sense and Sensibility a couple of years ago. It was the first time ever reading JA. Now, that book I would not necessarily recommend as a "first read", only because it was very difficult for me to get the style, places and era down. But, in all that I have read now, Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility and now Persuasion, I would feel greatly disappointed, if I went my lifetime without knowing JA's wonderful writings. As an author myself, I can be very critical and impatient, but it does not mean to reflect, a dislike for the book.
I can barely wait to see how these next chapters end. The 19th chapter, on the 19th, is rather poetic!
JoanK., " What will Austen do with our lovers now? Will they stumble their way toward each other? Or be ships that pass in the night?"
Well, now you really have piqued my interest!
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, as an author yourself you probably notice devices JA uses to achieve her effects that the rest of us don't. Is there anything you care to comment on?
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Oh dear - just read your posts and I had so disliked what Jane Austen wrote in chapter 17 I could hardly take any comment seriously -
First of all it hit me the quote by Elenore Roosevelt was right on while reading this and then I realized the story was more sinister. - first the quote...
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."
Little of what passed for conversation included comments that could or would be said in front of those they were downplaying - this chapter made me uncomfortable and reminded me of the back fence or coffee klatch gossiping popular among those who live by judging, criticizing, name calling, trivializing others lifestyles saying, The trouble with this one or that one is or They are stuck up or they minimize and only see the negative in others and without being present they fantasize what others see and do. Chilling!
Also, Chapter 17 was like one huge market with people the commodity - they were all being portrayed as using each other and justifying their behavior without ever seeing and speaking about how they added to each other and society in general. Mrs. Smith is using Mrs. Wallis and Mr. Elliot is being judged like a piece of meat. We hear of Lady Russell's "opinions" as of she were the one choosing and has the right to judge the merits of people as if they are commodities in the hardware store. All that to show the compassion of Anne??!!?? Sheesh...
I am thinking we are hearing more of Jane Austen, who is portraying her wealthy characters as inadequate and placing this same inadequacy on the judging and using nature of the poor that I cannot help but wonder if Jane Austen is writing her own hostile thoughts and behind the back gossip without allowing her readers to see more than black and white behavior. Even Shakespeare gave most of his villeins small redeeming qualities if nothing else to make them a worthy adversary.
Well we do learn in Chapter 17 Anne finally, in thought saying what we had been suspecting, she still has strong feelings for Captain Wentworth that she is at last acknowledging aloud within her head. If the concept is true that we act on our thoughts than it appears we are going to see Anne become more than a '...little girl, Who had a little curl, Right in the middle of her forehead.'.
Jane Austen writes her sea faring men with respect and as likeable characters which, after reading chapter 18 is suggesting in her life she admired her brothers and their fellow navel personal where as, in chapter 17 she tried to justify bad behavior for the characters with less, while vilifying those with more.
Ha just hit, this is as if she is writing an exposé of the capitalistic system with people and their behavior as the currency.
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PatH., I will admit to being a novice author, with a few writings published in print, which are poetry rather than novel. Although, I have a children's book in the works. Being a newbie to JA, I can say the devices I see her use to achieve her effects are: satire, irony, drama, realism, individualism, society, sadness, comedy, emotion and fairy tale elements.
I am certain that all JA's fans/readers are aware of these devices. They pull you into the story, wanting more, even in the more difficult pages, when she uses more dialogue versus description. She does not give many physical descriptions of her characters or places, which leaves you to know them more of their mind, rather their physical appearances. So the pictures in the links provided by our members are most appreciated, because it gives the readers the true essence of the places, times and styles. That's what makes SeniorLearn a most unique, and cherished book club.
Me, being a hopeless romantic, I am a sucker for the fairy tale element. In every fairy tale you have the girl/guy meet, part, and come back together. In the process of this happening, you see a growth in the characters, many times, one seeing the other in a different light, as in Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth was willing to re read Mr. Darcy's letter, and was willing to give him a second look. I saw a growth in Elizabeth, as well as Mr. Darcy, because he had to be willing to admit his character flaws too. I sense, Anne has been giving Mr. Wentworth a second look, through the eyes of seeing others who are not at all suited for her, as I sense Mr. Wentworth has quietly observed Anne, amongst her many family and friends. But......all fairy tales do not necessarily have the happily ever after, so as JoanK., stated, "Will they stumble their way toward each other? Or be ships that pass in the night?"
I can say I am more enriched in the knowledge of society, style and manners in the era of JA's writings. I will cherish her books I have, and recommend them to my grand daughters. You can not find these treasures today, to give to young ladies entering their dating years. Imagine Fifty Shades of Grey, compared to, Pride and Prejudice, as guides to our young girls for relationships. In my opinion, it's garbage versus gallantry.
Ciao for now~
P.S. Barb, we were writing at the same time. LOVE your post!!! As for taking our posts seriously, my advice to you and others is, look for the satire!! ;D ;D
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Interesting Bellamarie that you are seeing Anne as giving Captain Wentworth a second look - to me she is giving herself a second look and allowing herself to see herself as an individual with thoughts that are not always the same as Lady Russell who she admires and who she allowed to persuade her not to marry Captian Wentworth. Like a daughter growing up she is realizing she is a person in her own right not a copy cat of her "mother's" values, ideas and ideals with Lady Russell being her replacement mother. Anne is certainly not rebelling and she is only acting tentatively on her own thoughts without sharing out loud all her thoughts.
I think the bit of Anne finding herself alone was a symbolic turning point of her realizing she is her own person with her own values, ideas and ideals. Once you know who you are it is more difficult to be persuaded by others. I think the whole bit of her visiting Mrs. Smith was her stepping into her own orbit rather than being a shadow or echo of those she depended on. Then to visit Mrs. Smith and NOT visit the esteemed and noble family members was really staking out a place of independent thinking.
I just see her looking at Captain Wentworth as a growing independent thinker in keeping with the time that the change is described as, "The turn of the 19th century granted people the opportunity to present new public exterior identities that provided insights into their individual private selves." I think Jane Austen was exploring this emerging concept that women, and men, were more than the traditional “ancien-regime” which excluded the concept of "self". Instead, your identity was expected to be malleable. Emerging was a new concept of the internal and external self. Anne and her father appear to be bridging the new concept.
As far as her Father, Walter Elliot is concerned - I am not seeing Jane Austen as sending a message that he is ridiculous but rather, a man who is focused on self expression that was expressed in fashion - where his skill in making a statement is on target he is inept at the other half of the responsibility as head of a family - it is important during this time and in this place to look elegant which includes showing careful attention to skin, hair, clothes and surrounding decor as well as, the ability to mix with those who have more prestige, more wealth and more status. At the same time a man is supposed to successfully husband money so he is financially secure and prosperous.
We learned early in the story that his deceased wife took care of that half of the job which gave them a solid financial footing. This was a challenge that she pulled off and it appears she did not resent him but loved him and was content, if not comfortable with his attention to the other half of creating the aura of an elegant, stylish, lifestyle while managing an ancient traditional family home. IF he had been able to do both his wife would not have been hailed for her accomplishment. No one, in a matter of months, if ever, can learn over-night how to pull off what his wife had years to perfect.
I think Anne expected, like all children, that their father to be a successful parent provides social acceptance as well as, the security of handling the family estate and financial security. A teen daughter feeling the bottom dropping out would be judgmental without being privileged to the workings of her parents marriage and how that was key to the success of their family -
If her father put himself into being financially secure and let his looks and family status go as he has his ability to handle money she would have blamed him for their not being suitable for a good marriage partner - she seems to be throwing that in his face as if, her liking those who have no prestige are more worthy of her pleasure, time and attention and yet, without her status she may never have met Captain Wentworth because they would not have been on the same or better footing as the brother of Captain Wentworth therefore, they possibly would never have met.
So I do not see Sir Walter as ridiculous but rather capable of only half of the work required to achieve success as a Regency, titled head of Kellynch. Men of Sir Walter's status, who were not in the military were followers of "Beau" Brummell and Walter Elliot was making his mark in style.
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Wonderful to read your posts - having been " out of pocket" this past week. You provide different views of the characters I'd been regarding as one-sided. I think now it would be a mistake to consider the story autobiographical..JA in Anne's character - though I do see the story a vehicle for JA to vent her criticism of the society of the time.
I just reread Chapter XVIII and Mary's funny, funny letter to Anne to refresh my memory of where we are in the story, right before the Captain comes to Bath. Hated to leave Lyme. Anne was happier there than in Bath. Is Bath (B-ah-th) Anne's home now?
Mary's letter to her sister - " this is the end of Captain Benwick's being supposed to be an admirer of yours." Seriously, what did you think of his engagement to Louisa? Isn't he a bit "piano" for Lousa? I think he was attracted to Anne (isn't every man in the story? ) I think that JA will leave us believing that they fell in love, even if they have little in common. It's a neat way to "unshackle" Captain Wentworth...just in time for Bath.
The Admiral wants to get Frederick to Bath where there are plenty of pretty girls waiting for him. Doesn't the Admiral seem unaware that his wife's brother was engaged to Anne at one time?
We leave Anne - in "senseless joy..."
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Barb, With all due respect, I think you are a bit overzealous, and generous where Sir Elliot is concerned. I see JA making him out to be a ridiculous snob, who is insensitive to his rudeness, and was careless, in his undisciplined spending behavior, where their finances were concerned. Now you have Lady Russell, trying to marry Anne off to Mr. Elliot, to regain the family estate and respect. Sir Elliott and Elizabeth could care less about anyone but themselves. I love how Admiral Croft mentioned he had all the looking glasses removed from Sir Elliot's dressingroom. A clear indication, Mr. Elliot was full of himself. I'm not sure JA indicated the wife's contentment or not being resentful. I'm not so sure I would find her such a happy wife if I had to take care of reining in his frivolous spending, to help save the home.
pg. 653 (Admiral Croft to Anne) "I have done very little besides sending away some of the large looking-glasses from my dressing room, which was your father's. A very good man, and very much the gentleman. I am sure; but I should think, Miss Elliot" (looking with serious reflection), "I should think he must rather a dressy man for his time of life. Such a number of looking-glasses! oh, Lord! there was no getting away from one's self. So I got Sophy to lend me a hand, and we soon shifted their quarters; and now I am quite snug, with my little shaving glass in one corner, and another great thing that I never go near." Anne, amused in spite of herself, was rather distressed for an answer.
pg. 598 "Vanity was the beginning and end of Sir Walter Elliot's character: vanity of person and of situation."
In the situation of the wife taking care of the finances, I suspect she had no choice considering her husband was an over spender and irresponsible. Yes, he did have those expenses keeping up with his vanity.
pg. 600 "Her father was growing distressed for money. She knew, that when he now took up the Baronetage, it was to drive the heavy bills of his tradespeople, and the unwelcome hints of Mr. Shepherd, his agent, from his thoughts. The Kellynch property was good, but not equal to Sir Walter's apprehension of the state required in its possessor. While Lady Elliot lived, there had been method, moderation, and economy, which had just kept him within his income; but with her had died all such right mindedness, and from that period he had been constantly exceeding it. It had not been possible for him to spendless; he had done nothing but what Sir Elliot was imperiously called on to do; but blameless as he was, he was not only growing in dreadfully in debt, but hearing of it so often, that it became vain to attempt concealing it longer, even partially, from his daughter. He had given her some hints of it the last spring in town; he had gone so far even as to say, "Can we retrench? Does it occur to you that there is any one article in which we can retrench?" and Elizabeth, to do her justice, had, in the first ardour of female alarm, set seriously to think what could be done, and finally proposed these two branches of economy, to cut off some unnecessary charities, and to refrain from new furnishing the drawingroom; to which expedients she afterwards added the happy thought of their taking no present down to Anne, as had been the usual yearly custom. But these measures, however good in themselves were insufficient for the real extent of the evil, the whole of which Sir Walter found himself obliged to confess to her soon afterwards. Elizabeth had nothing to propose of deeper efficacy. She felt herself ill-used and unfortunate, as did her father; and they were neither of them able to devise any means of lessening their expenses without compromising their dignity, or relinquishing their comforts in a way not to be borne.
Sir Elliot depended on his wife to take care of the finances, while he took care of keeping up his good looks and snobbery. Now that the wife is no longer here, he is hoping for Elizabeth to find ways to bail him out. The sad thing is: Elizabeth has taken on her father's traits of snobbery and social status, to the point they both admit they are not willing to even consider spending less to save their dignity and comforts.
Ridiculous indeed!
I agree with your assessment of Anne, which I stated earlier, I only am waiting for her to find her voice and use it. Which I suspect, will happen in the last chapters.
Question....Do you read chapters 19 - 24 so we can begin discussing them on the 19th? Can't wait to see where this all ends!
Ciao for now~
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It would be good to have read at least some of the last part by tomorrow; all of it would be great. A lot happens, with some twists and turns, and we'll try to discuss it sort of in order.
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4. Sir Walter says "The worst of Bath was the number of plain women." What are the ways Austen shows Sir Walter to be ridiculous? In what ways does she contrast him to Admiral Croft? Which one is funnier?
Oh how I wish I were a cartoonist, and could pen to paper, to draw these two characters. I would have such a joyful time showing the differences of these two men. Which one is funnier? Hmmm....I suppose my cartoon character of Sir Elliot would be the funniest, with him standing in a room full of looking-glasses, admiring his perfect suit, hair and skin, while Admiral Croft's cartoon character, would be removing the looking-glasses, from the room. Oh what a hoot, imagine the look on Sir Elliot's face. :o :o :o
Okay, I am off to begin the last pages.
Ciao for now~
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Need to come back later today to read all of your wonderful post Bellamarie - Oh wow and while I was writing another - I am so glad you are posting your thoughts - this is great to have something to talk about - However, I have appointments all afternoon and will get back till just in time for Friday night news that I like to watch on PBS - a quicky - cannot find it now but the article I read yesterday about what the dress of the day represented and how both men and women went about it - the article did say that it was typical for men to use many full length mirrors during this time - that said to me where we can think it as over the top it was usual for stylish men of the Regency to have mirrors and upper class men were keeping the style of Beau Brummel in fashion.
With these tidbits I had to reconsider our use of 20th and 21st century ideas about manly decorum to understand Sir Walter. I realize that average man today does not subscribe to men's fashion magazines like Go however, there must be enough men who do to keep the magazine in business. After seeing the editor for Vanity Fair on the Charlie Rose show this week I thought he was probably dressing and wearing his hair in the latest fashion much as Sir Walter. In one breathe it took a bit to take him seriously till Charlie Rose, who knew him privately, brought out his intelligence and his many interests that included a passion for canoeing. You'd never guess and so I had a peek into an older, fashionably dressed, man.
When we consider the dress of the Regency navel officers they may have the rough skin from weather but they do wear colorful clothes with gold decorating the uniform, plumes in the hats of the admiralty. Not the style of Beau Brummel but dashing and far more decorative in its way and more, no individual style. All through the story Jane Austin writes favorably about those characters in the Navy as compared to the civilian men. The article I read on clothing indicated it was a time when your thoughts about life were understood by how you dressed, that men were going from what we called Kickers, pants just below the knee that put a man in the old, traditional school of thinking to the new long pants and small waist representing the new thinking.
However, that does not take into account Sir Walter's inability to handle his financial responsibility and in that we are seeing him differently - yes, his vanity to keep up with the fashion of the day is featured by Jane Austen but again, we each interpret what that can mean. I am just sharing what it means to me and back to, we all make a story our own. There is no one way to interpret the behavior of characters in a story -
Many of Austen's charactures she creates to describe her characters are added mood or dressing for the story like some authors describe the countryside or the weather. Sir Walter's personality is seen through the eyes of Anne and to me the story is about her justifying her ability to make an individual choice rather than be persuaded by others making a choice for her. With that as Austen's goal then I see Anne justifying her individual rights by finding fault with those who she depended upon in the past and who she no longer agrees with their values.
She knew she was happy with Captain Wentworth so now, it is her viewpoint or continue with the viewpoint of others that justified for her what, was happiness and what, she chooses for her future happiness. Breaking free from under a father is not easy so I would expect her to be harsh in her view of and judgement of him.
Never saw this book described as a coming of age story however, it is on both the social and the individual coming of age story - society was coming of age with revolutions having recently been fought to take into account the thoughts of the common man who wanted a voice in their future. Which again, the bit on dress I read alluded to that when they said someone's thoughts dictated their clothing.
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Doesn't the Admiral seem unaware that his wife's brother was engaged to Anne at one time?
That's right. He was stationed in the East Indies at the time, and Mrs Croft was with him. When Anne first meets them, she is relieved to see, by Mrs. Croft's behavior, that they know nothing of the affair.
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BARB and BELLAMARIE: there's so much to think about in both your posts. It's great when you disagree: it makes us think of things from different angles.
I admit, I think of Sir Walter and Elizabeth as Bellamarie does. But you have a point, Barb. Walter was spared thinking about money by his sensible wife and doesn't really know how. And he is just doing what society expects him to do. (Boy, I wish I had someone to spare me thinking about money!)
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"to me the story is about her [Anne] justifying her ability to make an individual choice rather than be persuaded by others making a choice for her."
That's very interesting! Do the rest of you agree?
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Sir Walter is silly, but not all spendthrifts are silly -- far from it! Thomas Jefferson was a spendthrift. So were many famous authors: James Joyce and Oscar Wilde for example. They leave a trail of friends and loved ones behind them who have suffered from their problem (in Jefferson's case, it was his slaves, whom he couldn't afford to free on his death because of his many debts).
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What fun getting to know something of Jane Austen's writing with your help. I've never read a book with so much meaning between the lines, and the ton of meaning IN some lines.
I found Chapter 18 a splendid opportunity to get to know the heart and mind of Anne Elliot as she reacts to and broods on the news that is coming at her in the letter from Mary and the mouth of Admiral Croft. She's always been in love with Captain Wentworth, and the news is all good.
I like your question, JoanP: 'Doesn't the Admiral seem unaware that his wife's brother was engaged to Anne at one time?'
Of course the Admiral must have known. Must have talked about it with Sophie, his wife and the Captain's brother. I'm sure he was watching Anne very closely for a reaction to what he was saying. I think he would like to see her get a seaworthy mate. Like his own wife.
Did Anne's mother, with her values, ideas and ideals, waste her life on Sir Walter?
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"Did Anne's mother, with her values, ideas and ideals, waste her life on Sir Walter?"
I've wondered that too. Austen seems to indicate that she was happy enough. Austen seems well aware that many people don't achieve the level of happiness in their marriage that she expects for her heroines, and yet manage.
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Did Anne's mother waste her life on Sir Walter? Not totally; she made him a better person while she was alive: "...humored, or softened, or concealed his failings, and promoted his real respectability...." She wasn't totally happy, though. "...and though not the very happiest being in the world herself, had found enough in her duties, her friends, and her children, to attach her to life, and make it no matter of indifference to her when she was called on to quit them."
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Did Anne's mother waste her life on Sir Walter?
Oh heavens no! I don't think she wasted her life on him. There are so many dynamics that make a marriage work. I'm betting Mrs. Elliot was aware of the personality of her husband, and knew what it would take to be married to him. I think there was happiness in their marriage, but I do think it was a challenge on her part, to reign in his spending. He has to be a bit comical to watch, strutting around looking at himself in mirrors, checking his attire to perfection. I just laughed out loud, picturing his dressing room filled with so many mirrors. I laughed so hard when I read the Admiral say, "there's no getting away from oneself." JA provided the satire and comedy to balance out the drier parts of the novel. To me...that's perfection!
PatH., " She wasn't totally happy, though. "...and though not the very happiest being in the world herself, had found enough in her duties, her friends, and her children, to attach her to life,"
Ultimately, doesn't every married woman, count on these things to help add to her purpose and happiness in life, not only back in the 19th century, but in today's modern day too.
Barb, As for men dressing to keep up with the fashions of today, I have to admit, there are many obsessed men, who are spending thousand and thousands of dollars, to dress to the nines, tanning their bodies, working out, having all the hair on their bodies removed, buying hair products from the most expensive salons, styling their hair, and let's not even go into the cost for sportswear with, North Face, Under Armor, Nike, etc., etc,. A pair of shoes could cost them a paycheck, and guys won't blink an eye to buy them. So, where Sir Elliot is concerned, I would say he was a modern day, 19th Century man. But on the same token, he like many men today, was/are in extensive debt, trying to live up to these fashion standards.
Ciao for now~
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To fill in while everyone is reading the next section, I’ll plug in my mini-description of the British Navy. It can be skipped if it doesn’t interest you.
Advancement depended on three things in various proportions: influence (or patronage), ability, and luck.
A would-be officer started out as a midshipman. These were quite young, in their teens, and they learned navigation, sailing, everything about ships they needed to know. They were supposed to finish their ordinary school subjects too, but this schooling varied from ship to ship. Dick Musgrave was a midshipman, and his complaint that Captain Wentworth was “too pertikular about the schoolmaster” suggests that Wentworth took this duty seriously. You had to be a gentleman to become a midshipman, but just barely, not necessarily of any high rank, and, as Barb pointed out, you didn’t have to buy your way in, so you didn’t need money, though at all stages, it was hard to live the way you were expected to on your salary alone. People with connections often asked captains they knew to take their sons as midshipmen.
After two years, you could take an exam, and if you passed, become a lieutenant, the most junior commissioned officer.
From then on, for promotion you would need either patronage (someone high up in the navy or politics) or to distinguish yourself in some way. Captains wrote up reports on the actions of their officers, which figured in promotions.
The next stage was Commander. You could now be the Captain of one of the smaller ships. It’s confusing, because you were called Captain when you were in charge of a ship even though you weren’t really a captain. Captain Benwick is a commander, even though he’s called Captain. Wentworth would have been a commander when he was captaining the Asp.
The next step is the big one: captain, or post-captain. You get this by getting the command of one of the larger ships, and once you get it you’ve got it made. This marks the date of your seniority, and all you have to do to become an admiral is live long enough for your name to come to the top of the list. (How did they get rid of the deadwood? By giving them unimportant commands, and, when they reached admiral, retiring them as soon as they were promoted.) Wentworth is now a post-captain.
Admirals go up a list in order too. There are 9 of them and Admiral Croft is the second from the bottom.
At all stages skill and luck enter in. You have to be good to win battles, but you also have to be lucky to get to be in a battle or to run into a privateer. Wentworth demonstrates both in the Asp, when he runs into the frigate. He was lucky to find her, but he had to be pretty good to manage to take her, because Asp was a sloop, a much smaller ship, and in poor condition.
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Pat, where did you acquire this knowlege? Please tell! I'll bet there's a story there.
Just finished the book...BOTH ENDINGS! I won't comment as some may not be finished yet, but just have to ask - Does everyone have the ORIGINAL TWO ENDINGS attached at the end? What's that about? Can you provide any information about the different endings? I'm assuming that the ORIGINAL chapters were written by the author first - and wonder about the edited endings. Won't say more except to say that I much prefer the original chapters -
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Oh, my! I don't have two endings. Who does?
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I have finished the book, and have only one ending. Guess I will Google for another ending.
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Here's the original ending for those who don't have it...
original ending (http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/pcanchap.html)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12
Oct 13-18--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)
Oct 19-?--Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12) |
Some things to think about: Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)
1. How does Austen maintain suspense in this last section? Did you feel it as you read? What did you feel?
2. Anne doesn't take action herself, but waits for others. Why?
3. When Wentworth talks to Anne, she feels "agitation, pain, pleasure, a something between delight and misery." Have you ever felt like that? Under what circumstances?
4. Wentworth says "Bentwick is something more [than amiable, sweet-tempered and understanding]. He is a clever man, a reading man." But Charles says "His reading has done him no harm, for he has fought as well as read."Are we "something more" because we are reading people? Does it do us harm?
5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once? Is this realistic?
6. [Women] "certainly do not forget you [men] as easily as you forget us. It is, perhaps, our fate rather than our merit." Do you agree?
7. In none of Austen's books does she write dialog declaring love. Why do you think this is? What did you think of the device Austen uses instead?
8. Is Anne too good to be true?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg)
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
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I never knew of a second ending until this discussion. One of my new books has it. After Austen wrote it, she decided the ending was weak, and rewrote it, and it is the rewrite that was published, and has been the published ending ever since. After we are all through the book, we can talk about which one we like best and why.
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Pat, where did you acquire this knowlege? Please tell! I'll bet there's a story there.
It's a pretty simple story. I'm a sailing nut anyway, and I've read all 20 of Patrick O'Brian's Master and Commander series. They make a perfect tutorial for the naval background of Persuasion. You can watch Jack Aubrey and his friends (and enemies) going through all the manipulations to get ships and the other struggles involved in trying to get somewhere in the navy. Aubrey is both lucky and a remarkably skillful sailor, manager of crew, and planner of battle strategy, but he has very little influence or patronage, and his people skills with superiors and officials aren't the best.
Aubrey is roughly based on a real person, Thomas Cochrane (also the model for Horatio Hornblower) and Aubrey's most wildly improbable battles are lifted straight from Cochrane's battles, even toned down a bit from the real thing.
An Austen side note: when I was reading the series, a number of times I noticed the appearance of ships that I knew Jane Austen's brothers had sailed in (ships are sort of people, so if you care you tend to remember their names) and Aubrey even sails on one, the Leopard. It turns out this was deliberate. O'Brian was a great admirer of Austen, and was putting them in whenever it made sense, as a tribute.
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I absolutely hated the original ending, and am so glad there was a rewrite. Here is a link that will give good argument as to why the rewritten, published version, was the best. Decide for yourselves. I personally LOVED the ending in my book and felt it was perfect in every way!!!
Don't click this link if you have NOT finished the book. I do NOT want to spoil, the much awaited ending for anyone.
http://voices.yahoo.com/the-better-ending-persuasion-jane-austen-4175161.html
I was quite busy today with my grand daughter's tournament volleyball games, shopping, and then out to a movie and dinner with good friends, and my hubby for Sweetest Day! Just got home and in my pjs. I have yet another busy day tomorrow, church and the apple orchard with all my children and grandchildren, so won't be able to discuss much. I was at the movie theater waiting for our friends to arrive, when I checked in and saw the post about two endings. I thought I was seeing things, so I had to Google, and find out what on earth it was all about.
Can't wait to begin discussing the last chapters.
Ciao for now~
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There's a possibility for confusion in the term "original ending". It could mean either originally written, or originally published. Shall we call them the ending with the Musgraves and the ending with the Crofts?
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The article about the "better ending" is very interesting (but read the two endings first). I certainly like the published ending better! But what a luxury to have the second as well! Since I feel that I understand Anne and Frederick's emotions so well from the published ending, I can't relate to the article's criticism that the unpublished one does not allow you to feel Anne's emotions.
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Even if you haven't read the ending yet, you can respond to one point the critical article makes. He says that throughout the book, Wentworth avoids dealing with his feelings. Do you think this is true?
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Yes, JoanK., I do think Wentworth avoided dealing with his feelings, and I believe it was because he was so fearful of Anne's power to hurt him again, so he avoided her, especially after Lyme. Only in the end, did he finally decide to risk it all, and let her know his true feelings. I think he came to the conclusion, he will never know if there could be another chance at love with her, unless he puts his feelings on the line, and risks rejection once again.
PatH., The original ending was Anne and Admiral Croft. (which I did not like at all) The rewritten ending, that is published was with Captain Harville. (which touched me beyond imagination) I seriously was so touched with the conversation Anne had with Captain Harville, while Mr. Wentworth was busy writing the letter to Anne, overhearing the entire conversation. These words from Captain Harville just melted me:
"Ah! cried Captain Harville, in a tone of strong feeling, "if I could but make you comprehend what a man suffers when he takes a last look at his wife and children, and watches the boat that he has sent them off in, as long as it is in sight, and then turns away and says, "God knows whether we ever meet again!" And then, coming back from a twelvemonth's absence, perhaps, and obliged to put into another port, he calculates how soon it be possible to get them there, pretending to deceive himself, and saying, "They cannot be here till such a day," but all the while hoping for them twelve hours sooner, and seeing them arrive at last, as if Heaven had given them wings, by many hours sooner still! If I could explain to you all this, and all that a man can bear and do, and glories to do, for the sake of these treasures of his existence! I speak, you know, only of such men as have hearts!" pressing his own with emotion.
Anne's response was so touching and vulnerable.
"Oh!" cried Anne, eagerly, "I hope to do justice to all that is felt by you, and by those who resemble you. God forbid that I should under-value the warm and faithful feelings of any of my fellow creatures! I should deserve utter contempt if I dared to suppose that true attachment and constancy were known only by women. No, I believe you capable of everything great and good in your married lives. I believe you equal to every exertion, and to every domestic forbearance, so long as-if I may be allowed the expression, so long as you have an object. I mean while the woman you love lives, and lives for you. All the privilege I claim for my own sex (it is not enviable one: you need not covet it), is that of loving longest, when existence or when hope is gone!"
She could not immediately have uttered another sentence; her heart was too full, her breath too much oppressed'
Captain Harville's response: "You are a good soul," cried Captain Harville, putting his hand on her arm, quite affectionately. "There is no quarrelling with you."
After reading this, knowing Frederick had heard the entire conversation, I suspect, that is what made him decide to write the letter to Anne, right then and there. He not only could see what a "treasure she is", but he could see even Captain Harville could see it too. Captain Harville is truly a man in love with his wife, and wants Anne and Frederick to experience this same type of love.
I hope I did not jump too far ahead of the chapters for discussion, but I have to say, this stuck with me more than anything else in the final chapters. It's like the famous line in Jerry Maguire..... "You had me at hello." My heart was "too full."
Ciao for now~
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That and the letter which follows are about the most powerful and emotional parts of the book.
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But let's backtrack now to the start of this section. We left Anne at the end of chapter 18 feeling "senseless joy" at the thought that Wentworth is free from Louisa. But now, what can she do? It's hard to imagine fully the constraints on a single woman's behavior back then. She cannot write a letter to a single man who isn't a relative. She can't invite him to anything at her house. (Her sister Elizabeth, as mistress of the household, can.) Under many situations, she can't even speak to him in public unless he speaks to her first. They don't attend many of the same social functions.
She's left with a frustrating waiting game.
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Thanks, Bellamarie, for the 'Better ending of Persuasion' link. Most interesting argument. I agree with you. The published ending is the better one.
I can't agree with everything Neil Thakore says in the link, but he is certainly on to a problem that I have with the book. Captain Wentworth is never given a chance to reveal his feelings the way Anne is, whether it's direct of indirect discourse. And I think the author was aware of that and was unhappy about it. I wonder if there might have been a third ending if Jane Austen had lived a little longer.
Thakore concludes his argument with: 'In the end, the published ending makes the two lovers more persuasive.' Ironic?
Or this, earlier: 'The original ending, however...fails to articulate the character of Wentworth that is consistent with the novel, thus not truly capturing a justified picture of the two lover's relationship.
Overhearing Anne's talk of the eternal constancy of her love overwhelms Captain Wentworth and gets an immediate, emphatic response from him. But I'm still left with the problem whether it was that or his jealousy of Mr Elliot that revived the love in his heart? Another rewrite might have given Captain Wentworth his Chapter 18. As it is, this is Anne's story. And a very good one.
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Jonathan, I think the conversation Mr. Wentworth overheard, the jealousy, and the fact he was coming to terms with his feelings never being able to get beyond Anne was a culmination of his reaction.
PatH., Yes, here we are, Anne has been told all these deplorable things about Mr. Elliot, by Mrs. Smith, she needs to speak to Lady Russell about the truths of Mr. E, yet now Mr. Wentworth is in Bath before she even expected, and before Mrs. Croft could even write a letter sending for him, as Mr. Croft as suggested to Anne.
Oh my, what's a girl to do. So many things in her head, so many people to contend with and so many feelings to sort out. Anne may not be in the position to approach Mr. Wentworth herself, but she sure does seem to have plenty of cupids, all set and ready to point their arrows at him! Luckily the situation presents itself, with Mr. Wentworth already in Bath.
Does anyone even suspect Anne, realized just being in the same room with Mr. Elliot was having such an effect on Mr. Wentworth. The entire scene at the concert was so frustrating. Just when Anne and Frederick are making some headway, in pops Mr. Elliot separating them. And Frederick being the gentleman he is, decides to retreat and leave rather than stay and fight for Anne's attention. So, even though I feel Frederick came to Bath to finally confront Anne with his true feelings for her, he is finding Mr. Elliot to be a bit of a challenge.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie--the concert scene--it's been a long time since I first read this book, but I haven't forgotten my reaction from then. This whole last section is a masterpiece of suspense. You know how it must come out, but you're holding your breath with Anne each time something goes wrong, each time she can't do anything but has to wait for others to make a move, each time she hopes a glance has the desired effect.
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JONATHAN: "Captain Wentworth is never given a chance to reveal his feelings the way Anne is, whether it's direct of indirect discourse. And I think the author was aware of that and was unhappy about it."
Don't you feel that the letter reveals his feelings? I always did. and I would hate to do away with it. But I admit, it is lovely to have the unpublished ending as well, and hear him stammering out words. Especially for those of us who thought we had read every word (of fiction) that Austen had written, to have a totally new (to me)scene.
I have always felt frustrated that in all her books, except this, Austen has never allowed the men to express their love in their own words. Why do you think this is?
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JoanK., Absolutely, Frederick's letter reveals his feelings. Is it a coincidence that JA had Mr. Darcy, and Mr. Wentworth declare their love in a letter? I find it even more romantic, because they can have the suitor's undivided attention, while expressing their undying love for them. Also, it's a safe way for the men to declare their love, without the direct rejection face to face. A bit of a safety net for them. It also gives Anne time to digest what he says. Although, once she has read it she can barely wait to see him to respond.
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I must say this book has taken me back to a time when the world was young. Like in young and looking for signals from someone of the opposite sex. Missing nothing in a glance or a word.
I'm right there with you Pat. It becomes a high drama of suspense. One can feel the tension. And, of course, the letter is the release. I find it interesting that Austen uses the same resolution with Mr Darcy's feelings. When it came to the crunch, Austen felt more comfortable with the written word than spoken dialogue. I am looking forward to reading Pride and Prejudice. And after that, her other novels. I have all seven of them now, including the wicked Lady Susan. Told entirely with letters. To help me on my way, I've also acquired Jane Austen for Dummies.
Did you know that reading Austen was found to be therapeutic for those suffering shellshock in World War I? And for those still in the trenches something worth fighting for.
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Jonathan, you will love Pride and Prejudice, Elizabeth is an entirely different character than Anne. She is spunky, and humorous. I have Emma left in my book of four stories, so I plan to read that. I am anxious to see what Emma's character is like after knowing Anne and Elizabeth. I love epistolary style novels, so I may be interested in reading Lady Susan.
#5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once? Is this realistic?
I had a problem wondering why Mrs. Smith did not tell Anne about Mr. E., immediately. When she thought Anne and he were going to marry, she asked if Anne would speak to Mr. E., on her behalf to help her get her estate in the West Indies. This really bothered me, because it did make me feel as though Mrs. Smith was watching out for her own self interests, rather than Anne's.
I was shocked at all the things Mrs. Smith reveals about Mr. Elliot. First off that he and her husband were close friends. How he had influence over her husband, and how Mr. Elliot and his wife had such an awful marriage. Anne's instincts early on left her to not trust Mr. E., but who would have imagined him to be downright deplorable. And to think he and Mrs. Clay were sneaking around, plotting. Lady Russell, sure was off on her judgement, not only with Mr. E. being suitable for Anne, but on Mr. Wentworth NOT being a suitable match for Anne eight years ago.
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, Emma is rather different than either Elizabeth or Anne. JA said of her "nobody will much like her but myself". This isn't true, but she does have some annoying faults. The plot is complex, and it's hard to catch everything that's going on the first time you read it. It's got some good comic characters too. We discussed Mansfield Park, on the old site, but it got lost in the move. People usually like MP the least of the books, but I saw a lot more in it after the discussion.
Jonathan, you will really like Pride and Prejudice. And Mr. Darcy has his say both in a letter and in person, though, as always, you don't hear his tenderest thoughts. I didn't know there was a Jane Austen for Dummies. You must tell us what it's like. If you can manage it, I advise spacing out the reading of the books to make them last longer and have greater impact, but that's hard to do.
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JA thought that Emma was the character who was most like herself. I think she was criticizing herself when she said that: Emma is rather sharp in discussing other people's faults, and so is JA in her letters. Somehow, in the books, although she shows peoples warts and pimples mercilessly, it comes over as much more good natured.
Do you agree?
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I had a problem wondering why Mrs. Smith did not tell Anne about Mr. E., immediately. When she thought Anne and he were going to marry, she asked if Anne would speak to Mr. E., on her behalf to help her get her estate in the West Indies. This really bothered me, because it did make me feel as though Mrs. Smith was watching out for her own self interests, rather than Anne's.
I have that problem with the book too. After seeing what JA achieved by re-working the ending, I wish she had had the time to re-work this scene. When Anne asks Mrs S. why did you speak so favorably of Mr. E. just now, the answer is that Anne and Mr. E. were as good as engaged, and you can't bad-mouth someone's fiancé. True, but why didn't Mrs. S. say something earlier? There was no thought of engagement until Anne had been in Bath a while, and saw so much of Mr. E. It's certainly true that Mrs. Smith is more worldly than Anne, without such strict standards.
Given time, JA could have re-worked that to make it better.
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Whew weekend that never stopped - now I have get caught up and with my reading - I stopped after chapter 18 - sounds like this is Anne's story and there was curiosity as to the motives of Captain Wentworth - without reading these next chapters it seems to me this has always been Anne's story since we did not have clues to his real feelings at Lyme or any other time, only the deductions that others in the story made from his actions and conversations with his sister, how much time he did or did not spend at his brothers and the infamous letter.
Had a thought pop into my head this weekend while driving from one part of town to the other - I would have to go back and trace Anne's comments about her father but I wondered if she is more annoyed at his taking on the modern world - seems to me she praises what was and those who keep to what was in favor of the new - I remember looking up and finding the full length mirror came into being during the Regency and the Colonnade in Bath was only built 40 and 50 years before this story as compared to these country houses that were a couple of hundred years old.
Well onward to read before I imagine to much meaning from this book without the full impact of the story.
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I couldn't warm up to Mrs. Smith...didn't feel she was much of a friend to Anne- though Anne had fond memories of her from their school days. Maybe because she kept referring to this old girlhood friend as "Mrs. Smith. Didn't you think that odd? What had she called her when they were in school?
Jonathan, since your post I've been thinking about Jane Austen's novels as therapy for WWI shellshock - trying to understand how they would be.
A distraction from the horrors of war? An escape to a well- ordered world after the chaos of war? Or how about this - wouldn't it be a comfort to the soldier to know a girl like Anne would still be waiting for him- even after 8 years?
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We've been comparing Sir Walter to beau Brummell. He was the foremost arbiter of dress in the Regency period. He was born in 1778, so in 1814, I assume he was at the height of his "dandyism".
he is credited with introducing the modern men's fashion of trousers (rather than breeches) and neckties. If I were a man, I's give him a "thank you" for the trousers and a raspberry for the neckties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beau_Brummell
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Thanks for the article, JoanK. For one thing, it solves the mystery of why my shoes don't look a gleaming as I would like. I haven't been polishing them with champagne. ::)
Men's fashions were indeed shifting from knee breeches and stockings to trousers at this time, and I have trouble deciding which to imagine JA's characters wearing. Mostly I go for the trousers.
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PatH., "True, but why didn't Mrs. S. say something earlier? There was no thought of engagement until Anne had been in Bath a while, and saw so much of Mr. E."
I never got the impression that Mrs. Smith was as good a friend, to Anne, as Anne was to her. I felt the entire Mrs. Smith section just was not believable for me. On one hand, JA has you feeling sympathy for Mrs. Smith's handicap and loss of her husband, yet she turns out to be complex, while she tells Anne of all these horrible character flaws of Mr. E., she reveals he was her husband's best friend, and they did everything together with Mr. E. and his wife, giving her the insight of the awful marriage. I felt JA was trying to work in a way for Anne to find out the truths first hand about Mr. E., so she brings in Mrs. Smith, an old school friend, yet I never felt the friendship to be true. JA needed a character to reveal Mr. E., for who he was, yet she has Mrs. Smith to actually use Anne's possible marriage to him as a means for her self to get her estate back into her own hands. When I read that part it totally threw me. I immediately thought.....Wow you are willing to throw Anne under the bus, to get what you want. With friends like that, who needs enemies. And I also thought, who could spend so much time in the company of such a cad like Mr. E., as close as Mrs. Smith says they did, knowing the kind of person Mr. E. was? While reading the revealing truths of Mr. E., I kept thinking Mrs. Smith was being vengeful, for feeling Mr. E., caused her husband to be careless in their finances, and monopolized his time. A rewrite may have made this a little more believable, and not so cold and selfish on Mrs. Smith's end.
Yet, JA decides to show the kindheartedness and generosity of Captain Wentworth, by telling us he managed to take care of Mrs. Smith's estate in the West Indies. I expected to read that, because Anne and Captain Wentworth would want to help her, because that is the kind of people they are. I loved the entire dialogue between Captain Wentworth and Anne, in the last pages. I hung on to every word they were finally getting to express to each other. When he says he has never found anyone to even compare to Anne, all these years, it was so heartwarming. I could visualize these last pages as if watching a movie, and the love finally being unleashed, that the two of them have kept inside them for all these years. All their doubts, regrets, fears, jealousy, hurt, or others persuasion, is not going to keep them apart. No one needs to persuade them of anything, because they are both convinced, they are meant to be together.
Barb, There is no doubt this was Anne's love story. I didn't get any particular impression, of Anne's feelings for her father, other than she was not his closest daughter. He favored Elizabeth, because she was the most like him. The last chapters of the book are by far the best!
Ciao for now~
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Bellamarie, that is just the sort of objection I have to the section about Mrs. Smith. But Austen means her to turn out to be a good character. At the end, she is listed as one of the only two worthwhile friends Anne brings to their married social circle (the other is Lady Russell). In her favor, she was good to Anne at school when Anne was miserable after her mother's death, and her illness and misfortune seem to have changed her. She is bearing her illness and poverty patiently, keeping up good spirits. And poor though she is, she is still helping poorer people by getting Nurse Rooke to sell her handwork to patients and using the money for them. Charitable works were part of a gentlewoman's duties, but you could imagine skimping on that under Mrs. Smith's circumstances.
Eventually, JA might have figured out a way to make this more believable.
JoanP, a note in my book says that "Mrs. Smith" would be the only proper way for Anne to refer to her, even though they were friends.
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I found this article which I thought interesting, because it touches on what PatH., and I have been discussing about how we feel JA may have needed more time to rewrite some parts of the ending, especially the Mrs. Smith dialogue. Seems others agree:
"Virginia Woolf said that “the stiffness and bareness of the first chapters” suggest that “she was one of those writers who lay their facts out rather baldly in the first version and then go back and back and back and cover them with flesh and atmosphere.” Woolf might have been speaking of Persuasion. Published posthumously, it has an almost skeletal feel, like an outline in which only the most salient points about each character are noted, as if Austen didn’t have time to “cover them with flesh.”
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_completist/2013/04/jane_austen_books_ranked_and_reconsidered_from_emma_to_persuasion.html
I also like this in the article:
Admirers make much of Austen’s deadpan tone, her wit, and her irony, and rightly so. But hers isn’t irony for irony’s sake: Austen’s portraits of people and their milieus are animated not by satirical malice or mere eagerness to entertain but by a sense of moral urgency. With a philosophical eye, she sees through fuss and finery and self-justification. She gives us a cast of characters and then zeroes in, showing us who and what is admirable, who is flawed but forgivable, who is risible and who is truly vile. Delivered economically, her judgments are not only clever but perspicacious, humane, and, for the most part, convincing. Her real subject is not the love lives of barely post-adolescent girls, but human nature and society. Austen wrote stories that show us how we think.
After seeing, "who is flawed but forgivable" I could easily see why Anne and Captain Wentworth, would keep Mrs. Smith and Lady Russell on as close friends. PatH., you made an excellent reference to Mrs. S. being there for Anne when her mother died. Even though now she does seem a bit bitter, because of her losses in life, ultimately she does come through for Anne. NOT that Anne would ever have had any intentions of marrying Mr. E., but revealing his, and Mrs. Clay's deviousness, was good for Anne to know.
One last link I found fun to look at was, Portraits of Persuasion. We discussed the fashion, and how it was changing, these pics give us a good look at their fashions.
Portraits of Persuasion
https://www.google.com/search?q=persuasion+jane+austen&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8LFmUqDzH5KCyAHFuYCIDg&ved=0CDQQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=643
Ciao for now~
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"Her real subject is ... human nature and society. Austen wrote stories that show us how we think."
I always thought of it as her writing stories to show us the different ways people live their lives, and the choices we have in how to live ours. That the important choices, (in addition to the choice of whom we will spend the rest of our lives with) are the "little" ones-- the things we choose to put importance on, how we act and react to the people around us, and to the thousands of everyday events.
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There, that's done. I've rewritten half a dozen of my posts, after reading all your stimulating views and arguments. Somewhere I read of a reviewer suggesting, don't just read, get involved with the characters, go after the author if you feel it would be helpful.
One of us, I believe it was JoanK, has posted: 'Wentworth avoids dealing with his feelings. Do you think this is true?
Yes and no. He isn't given the opportunities that Anne takes for herself. But he does, several times before the famous letter. They do meet on the street. And at the concert. Conversation follows. Early in Chapter 20, talking about Captain Benwick's and Louisa's surprising engagement, Captain Wentworth let's his feeling show by remarking:
'I wish them happy, and rejoice over every circumstance in favour of it. They have no difficulties to contend with at home, no opposition, no caprice (he hasn't forgiven Anne for breaking their engagement) No Delays (Waiting for him to make something of himself.)
And then, at the bottom of the page (Captain Benwick) 'surprises me. A man like him, in his situation! With a heart pierced, wounded, almost broken! Fanny Harville was a superior creature: and his attachment to her was indeed attachment. A man does not recover from such devotion of the heart to such a woman! He ought not - he does not.'
Wentworth shows a lot of feelings here and wants to apply them to their own relationship.
Then at the end of the chapter comes the realization that Captain Wentworth is jealous of Mr Elliot. For Anne, 'the gratification was exquisite.'
What I'm coming to follows the anguish and anxieties that have followed Anne through Chapters 19 and 20
Chapter 21 begins with Anne on her way to see her friend Mrs Smith. What fun to accompany her:
'Prettier musings of high-wrought love and eternal constancy, could never have passed along the streets of Bath, than Anne was sporting with from Camden-den to Westgate-buildings. It was almost enough to spread purification and perfume all the way.'
he loves...he loves me not...he loves me...
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Well for heavens sake - I did read this years and years ago - It had to be in high School - reading Mrs. Smiths story is when it all came back - it was learning all about a story within a story. We had only read Shakespeare where there was a play within a play - I forgot now which of his plays - it had to be either Macbeth or Hamlet when the visiting players tell the tale that implicated the king and here Jane uses the same literary devise.
We learned how the shields of Knights used this devise of featuring a miniature version of the shield on the shield as part of the design and that the Arabian Nights 1000 and 1 tales were all stories nested within the story.
Jane sure did not disappoint with two of the most romantic chapters I have ever read as they declare there love and affection and insecurities to each other - what a women to give Captain Wentworth a flaw of fainthearted timidity that matched in scale Anne's dependence and sway to persuasion.
Mrs. Smith sure is a great example of just how vulnerable to coercive victimization is the experience of a women alone - talk about having to use the good ole boy system to get what is rightfully yours - scary - unmarried Elizabeth at least has the protection of her father, their illustrious name and noble status where as the others are like the old saying, caged birds singing.
I wish the story of Mrs. Clay and her real connection with Wm. Elliot was flushed out while she was still hopefully pursuing Walter Elliot - I would have loved to know what the tat a tat between them viewed by Mary in Bath was all about.
Is there any male author that has put into words two chapters of love exchanged or for that matter another female author as romantic and believable as Jane writes in this story - those are chapters for not only tucking under the pillow of young girls but to reread over and over by women of every age - I am already dissecting the letter and those chapters to see how I could write similar sentiments with an appropriate twist of words to carry my position as a mother and grandmother to my children and grands.
Still wracking my brains trying to remember what class I was in when we read this - I can barely see a nun in a dark habit so it had to be high school since 8th grade when it could be possible to read this the nuns were Dominicans and they wore a creamy white. It will pop in when I am the least bit engaged in trying to remember. ah so...
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"I always thought of it as her writing stories to show us the different ways people live their lives, and the choices we have in how to live ours....That the important choices...are the "little" ones-- the things we choose to put importance on, how we act and react to the people around us, and to the thousands of everyday events."
Well put, JoanK! I think that you have summed up exactly what JA was portraying in Anne's steadfast character throughout! Thank you for putting it so simply before us.
And Jonathan....you've expressed so well Wentworth's conflicted feelings...and JA's attempts to understand the male point of view. Does she succeed? Did she ever really explain Captain Benwick's attraction to Louisa Musgrove except for the fact there was no opposition from her family?
Good morning, Barbara - we're posting at the same time, though considering the time zones, you are up and at it much earlier than I am. Yes, I agree, the Mrs. Smith/Mr. Elliot story might have been more "fleshed" out- do you get the feeling that she was rushing to finish as she wrote this, intending to go back and develop the story when she finished? I must say I'm happy that she was able to finish as she did, before her health failed.
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Barb,
Is there any male author that has put into words two chapters of love exchanged or for that matter another female author as romantic and believable as Jane writes in this story - those are chapters for not only tucking under the pillow of young girls but to reread over and over by women of every age - I am already dissecting the letter and those chapters to see how I could write similar sentiments with an appropriate twist of words to carry my position as a mother and grandmother to my children and grands.
I had this same feeling. I thought, oh how I wish I could bottle this, and give it to my grand daughter, who has just turned 18 yrs. old, and has yet to have a romantic relationship. She has had a couple crushes on high school friends, but now that she is in college, I sense she will be ready for something a little more mature, in the coming years. I am like Lady Russell, I want to protect her heart, but I fear she may experience a heart break or two, as Anne has, but I pray she will know, and feel a love, as Anne and Captain Wentworth have. JA indeed left the best for last!
Jonathan, I agree, Captain Wentworth did try, from time to time, to express his feelings, although the timing just wasn't right, until the letter, and their conversation after Anne read it.
Anne and Captain Wentworth's love is a love that sustained time and troubles. It's the kind of love that has been tried and tested, and survived, in spite of all the odds against them. I am blessed with knowing this kind of love, being married to my Mr. Darcey/Captain Wentworth and all the rest of the gallant men, who are brave enough to profess their love, even with the possibility of being rejected. Forty-one years of marriage bliss, for me and my hubby, and I pray we are blessed with many more. We experienced our very own "Love Story" before we managed to finally wed, and I dare say, our children and grandchildren say, you need to write a book, it's the perfect love story! It's our treasure, we look back on, and share with others, to laugh at and show, nothing about love and life are easy, no matter how perfect it may seem.
Barb, You ask, "Is there any male author that has put into words two chapters of love exchanged or for that matter another female author as romantic and believable as Jane writes in this story?"
I can tell you emphatically, yes, and many movies have been made of them. One that comes to mind is my favorite quote from Gone With the Wind......Rhett Butler, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn." (When in fact he did!) And the most passionate scene when they are fleeing Atlanta, and Rhett stops the carriage and says, "Scarlett! Kiss me! Kiss me, once." (where she is still upset and rejects him) and Scarlet's famous quote, "After all, tomorrow is another day." (Nothing ever looks so bad, once you have the chance to sleep on it.)
I remember the first time reading Gone With the Wind, and crying, thinking how can love get so mixed up and hurt so much. Kind of like, "Love Story", when Ali Magraw says to Ryan O'Neal,"Love means, never having to say you're sorry." She was in so much pain at the time. Yes, we have many wonderful novels and movies, to see the levels of love, pain, and how they overcome them, and end up together. JA, just seems to have cornered the market, on getting her readers to root for the couple, from the very beginning, and shout HOORAY! at the end, with a few tears of joy for the union/reunion.
After finishing this book, my hubby asked, "So how did it turn out?" I could not even discuss it with him at the time, because I wanted to just sit and engulf the beauty of the last chapters. It is a book that will remain with me, for a very long time. When I am ready, I will read the last chapters to him. He loves happily ever afters. ;)
Ciao for now~
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I thought the story within the story told by Mrs. Smith about their relationship with Mr Wm Elliot was more an exposé of the character of Mr. Elliot that no other character in the story was privileged with either experience of knowledge to share. It was the connection between Mrs. Clay and Wm Elliot that I was curious about - we know she had eyes for Walter Elliot and she is the daughter of Mr. Shepherd, the family lawyer - where they (Wm Elliot and Mrs. Clay) secretly in cahoots with each other or did he think he had one up on her - but then if so what did he have against her - what was that conversation all about where they were spotted from a window by Mary in Bath -
In Lady Russell is the clash melded when she has to undergo an entire mental makeover, realizing that she loves and must accept Anne and Captain Wentworth. That social rank and personal feelings are not exclusive but can be melded into one relationship.
Much of Anne's inner dialogue seems to be about just those differences - her family makes choices based on social protocol where as Anne values the warmth of personal feelings leading the head and heart. Lady Russell was upholding the Elliot view of social protocol but she still had the ability to see and accept that human emotions are allowed and her feelings of love for Anne stepped over her concern for threading the needle of social protocol when a lifetime marriage is at stake.
Anne to me epitomizes a Taoist thought, that the most important thing we can do is to make lunch. In other words make each of the simplest tasks each day the most important, giving our best to every email, every post here, cleaning up after ourselves, all our actions as a focus of our full attention and best effort. That is how I see Anne in this story.
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Oh I didn't realize this discussion ended - nice chat - great Pat and Joan thanks for the opportunity... onward to more nineteenth century with Remarkable Creatures.
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It hasn't ended, unless no one has anything more to say.
...the dread of a future war [was] all that could dim her sunshine.
Will Anne get the long happy married life she deserves? Probably. The book ends in February 1915. At any moment, Napoleon will escape from Elba and make his last bid to take over the world. But this final bit of the war will only last 100 days, and be fought mostly on land. After this, there will be no major wars for some time, so Wentworth will be able to settle down. JA couldn't predict this; England had been at war most of the time for her whole life. But she implies a long happy life for her heroine.
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Over on "Remarkable Creatures", we are trying to see how the two books connect in time. If Anne was in Lyme in 1814, Mary Anning, the (real life) fossil hunter fictionalized in the book would have been 21, in the midst of her fossil hunting.
I wonder if JA ever met her on the beach? Or knew of her activities?
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Here is the only contact I have been able to find. Mary Anning's father was a cabinet maker. Jane Austen wrote:
"I have written to Mr Pyne on the subject of the broken Lid: it was valued by Anning here we were told at five shillings and as that appeared to us beyond he value of all the furniture in the room together We have referred ourselves to the Owner"
It is a shame that social class differences would have kept these two remarkable women from knowing each other.
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Do you think that JA visited Lyme Regis as part of her preparation for writing Persuasion? Or before that...before she became ill?
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I wonder if Jane Austen would like most tourists to the area have purchased a fossil thereby meeting Mary Anning not knowing who she was - I have a feeling their findings were not public knowledge with write ups in the newspaper.
I am trying to figure out why I have so many pictures in my head of the scenes in this story - granted I saw a couple of movie versions - I do not remember any of them including Anne and her Captain walking on the gravel path while declaring the history of their love, yearning and pain during their 8 year separation and yet, I could picture it as they slowly walked. The description Jane Austen uses to describe what had to be the kiss of the century without calling it was amazing.
Been trying to picture in my head which of the men wore the new long pants and which of them kept the Benjamin Franklin look.
For sure I think Mr. Charles Musgrove, his father, whose name I do not think is included in the book, his wife's name yes, but I do not find Mr. Musgrove, the others wearing knickers I think is Admiral Croft and Charles Hayter, as a clergyman I do not see him in the latest fashion - realizing the long pants are not anything like the long pants of the mid nineteenth century it would be startling to see an older or rotund gentleman in what almost looks like what we would call tights or leggings.
From the story going forward after Christmas described at the MUsgrove's with the roaring fire it sounds like the highlight of Anne and her Captain's declaration of love takes place the end of winter - apropos after their long 8 year winter of loss.
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Read someplace recently that preceding Persuasion Jane Austen wrote Emma - I may tackle it but for now I am excited about going a bit further in this time period with our October selection that sounds like it is not focused on manners but the doings of some curious women.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12
Oct 13-18--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)
Oct 19-?--Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12) |
Some things to think about: Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)
1. How does Austen maintain suspense in this last section? Did you feel it as you read? What did you feel?
2. Anne doesn't take action herself, but waits for others. Why?
3. When Wentworth talks to Anne, she feels "agitation, pain, pleasure, a something between delight and misery." Have you ever felt like that? Under what circumstances?
4. Wentworth says "Bentwick is something more [than amiable, sweet-tempered and understanding]. He is a clever man, a reading man." But Charles says "His reading has done him no harm, for he has fought as well as read."Are we "something more" because we are reading people? Does it do us harm?
5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once? Is this realistic?
6. [Women] "certainly do not forget you [men] as easily as you forget us. It is, perhaps, our fate rather than our merit." Do you agree?
7. In none of Austen's books does she write dialog declaring love. Why do you think this is? What did you think of the device Austen uses instead?
8. Is Anne too good to be true?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg)
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
PatH., What wonderful knowledge you provide about the war. "After this, there will be no major wars for some time, so Wentworth will be able to settle down. JA couldn't predict this; England had been at war most of the time for her whole life. But she implies a long happy life for her heroine."
It's nice to know, Anne and Captain Wentworth would not have to deal with long separations, after being apart for 8 yrs.
JoanK., How incredible, you would find the info on Jane Austen ordering her lid from Anning. I watched the video of TC, today and enjoyed watching her find the animal vertebrae on the beach. Can't wait to begin Remarkable Creatures.
Barb, the link I posted above shows many of the characters in their fashions. You may find satisfaction, in jogging your memory looking at them.
I loved this section of Anne and Mr. Harville's discussion about Mr. Benwick moving on. pg. 704 About whether men do not forget women sooner, than women forget men. Mr. Harville says, "as I was saying , we shall never agree, I suppose, upon this point. No man and woman would, probably. But let me observe that all histories are against you-all stories, prose and verse. If I had such a memory as Benwick, I could bring you fifty quotations in a moment on my side of the argument, and I do not think I ever opened a book in my life which had not something to say upon woman's inconstancy. Songs and proverbs all talk of woman's fickleness. But, perhaps, you will say, they were all written by men."
Anne:"Perhaps I shall. Yes, yes, if you please, no references to examples in books. Men have had every advantage of us in telling their own story. Education has been theirs so much higher a degree; the pen has been in their hands. I will not allow books to prove anything."
Captain Harville:"But how shall we prove anything?"
Anne:"We never shall. We never can expect to prove anything upon such a point. It is a difference of opinion which does not admit of proof. We each begin, probably, with a little bias towards our own sex, and upon that bias build every circumstance in favor of it which has occurred within our own circle; many of which circumstances perhaps those very cases which strike us the most or may be precisely such as cannot be brought forward without betraying a confidence or in some respect, saying, what should not be said."
I felt Anne was referring to herself, arguing she has not forgotten, or stopped loving Captain Wentworth all these years, yet at this time, she is not aware of the fact, Mr. Wentworth has not forgotten, nor stopped loving her either. With Captain Wentworth overhearing this conversation, I am certain he realized, it is time for him to step up, and let Anne know how he feels, thus hurries and writes the letter. I love how JA went about this entire conversation between Anne and Captain Harville. It allowed her to voice her feelings, and Captain Wentworth hearing it without her knowing he was listening in.
So what do you all think of Anne pointing out.........."Men have had every advantage of us in telling their own story. Education has been theirs so much higher a degree; the pen has been in their hands. I will not allow books to prove anything."
Is this JA's voice, telling us her personal feelings, about the fact men have had the rights to higher education, and she is feeling more of a modernized woman, wanting and believing women should be allowed to have the same advantages? She did a great job allowing Anne to stop Captain Harville at that point, and letting him know he would be using unfair tactics, in using books for his argument, when women have not had the opportunity to write or publish books, on this subject. When I read this I smiled and said, way to go JA!
I am having a little JA withdrawals, and am thinking about beginning Emma, since I own the book. Went to the library today with my sweet 2 yr old granddaughter, and 4 yr old day care child, and was tempted to pick up The House Divided by Pearl S. Buck, since I finished Sons. Maybe I'll just give myself a little break and wait for Remarkable Creatures discussion to begin on Nov. 1
Ciao for now~
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aha - found the link - interesting they show Captain Wentworth in both long pants and another illustration shows him in the older what I call the Benjamin Franklin look.
I forgot that Anne had a brother who was stillborn - many deaths in the story, the Musgroves had a son die at sea then we have the death of Anne's mother and the young wife of Captain Benwick - Cannot find anything about Lady Russell if she was married and if so what happened to her husband - does anyone know?
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JA doesn't dwell on illness and death, its cause or the emotional toll, does she?...except to announce the fact that death has occurred:
- Lady Russell, "the widow of only a knight."
- Sir Elliot inserted into his favorite book, the Baronetage, "still born son, November 5, 1789."
-Of Mr. Elliot's first marriage, she writes only of Elizabeth "wearing black ribbons for his wife."
- Of the death of Lady Elliot, she writes only "of the day of the month" Sir Walter inscribed in the Baronetage and "the awful legacy (the three girls) for a mother to confide to the guidance of a conceited, silly father."
Was this avoidance intentional? Because of her illness while writing this novel? Can you remember earlier novels and how she portrayed the death of her characters?
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Barb ,you got me to thinking about all the deaths in the story, and along with those you, and JoanP. mentioned, I remembered these facts, and others who were deceased.
pg. 686 Anne-"My dear Mrs. Smith, Mr. Elliot's wife has not been dead much above half a year. He ought not be supposed to be paying his addresses to anyone."
pg. 688 Mrs. Smith-" I did not know his wife previously, her inferior situation in society, or at least till within the last two years of her life, and can answer any question you wish to put."
pg. 598 (Speaking of Lady Russell and Sir Walter's friendship) "Thirteen years had passed away since Lady Elliot's death, and they were still near neighbours and intimate friends, and one remained a widower, the other a widow. This friend and Sir Walter did not marry, whatever might have been anticipated, on that head by their acquaintance."
This was interesting how JA points out: "The Lady Russell, of steady age and character, and extremely well provided for, should have no thought of a second marriage, needs no apology to the public, which is rather apt to be unreasonably discontented when a woman does marry again, than when she does not; but Sir Walter's continuing in singleness requires explanation. Be it known, then, that Sir Walter, like a good father (having met with one or two private disappointments in very unreasonable applications), prided himself on remaining single for his dear daughter's sake."
Am I to understand, JA is telling us Sir Walter attempted to propose once or twice and it did not work out? She did not elaborate why it did not work out, just that he was happy with having his eldest daughter, Elizabeth as his escort. So it was acceptable Lady Russell need not remarry, since she was of a certain age and was well provided for. Now for Sir Walter, why do you think JA did not marry him off, since it was expected of him?
Mr. Smith was also deceased.
Did we know what happened to Lady Dalrymples, or Mrs. Clay's husband? Are there others we have overlooked, or not mentioned?
Goodness, I never gave much thought to the many deceased characters in the story until Barb, mentioned it.
I seriously think, had JA not been in dire health while writing Persuasion, I think she would have gone back through and given us some more information and tied up many loose ends to her characters.
Ciao for now~
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Yes, and another wasn't the clergyman that one of the Musgrove daughter's married also a widower.
Mrs. Clay confused me - either another version of this story must explain things or something - I read in a time chart that she came home to her father, Mr. Shepherd the attorney that urged Sir Walter Elliot to lease, because either a divorce or from a bad marriage and she had a couple of children, forgot the number, I think 3, that she brought with her and get this, she was supposed to be having an affair with William Elliot while he was pursuing Anne. Mrs. Clay and William later marry. So how did they pull that off - was divorce a possibility in 1814 or was it 1820.
I am not going back to the story to verify all this but I just do not remember these details. It sure would explain the tat a tat she and William Elliot were having in Bath that Mary saw from the window and called Anne to witness who was surprised since he was supposed to have left Bath 3 hours earlier.
Back in the 70s I was big into needlework - used to teach and traveled to a series of museums in England and Wales with appointments to view some of their holdings that were in the basements and attics of museums, then spent time in Paris studying with a needlework artist. Always, wanted to study lacemaking in Ireland and some of the older needlework in Bavaria but that is another story - anyhow there was a huge fad both in the US and in England during the nineteenth century to stitch funeral samplers that often was stitched with the hair of the deceased.
The history behind it was that it was only in the nineteenth century with enough collective wealth that average folks could take time to grieve and carry out funeral rites. Earlier it was all a lickity split event with folks returning to their work that day. Some had community and family support to bury their dead the next day so, there was a wake to watch the body that became a cause of drinking and storytelling as well as, hiring mourners called singers. However, children and infants were not waked, they were quickly buried. Those that did receive a ceremonial funeral often including a dirge and other symbolic ceremony were heroic warriors and community leaders.
The various funeral ceremonies we knew came from the mid nineteenth century - flowers, wreaths, wearing black, women wearing veils, funeral lunches to accommodate the travelers, not receiving or calling on others for 6 months, which during this time is when the funeral samplers were traditionally stitched.
The way Jane Austen brushes over the dead in her story I am wondering, as fashion was going through a big change, if the attitude toward burying the dead was changing into the era of ceremonial funerals - certainly the Musgrove's son was buried at sea but the wives and husbands that had died may have not been given the ceremony and emotional mourning that was typical later by only 20 or so years but rather, for those without a title and accompanying wealth they had to get on with life. I get the impression few could manage a single life - with the labor intensive chores it would take two to make a go of maintaining a household. Especially nineteenth century stories they are filled with sisters or other female family member managing the household for single men.
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So many loose ends. Mrs. Clay is described as having had "an unprosperous marriage". I'm not sure what that is, but she wasn't divorced. Divorce was almost impossible. A footnote says she is later describes as a widow, but I don't know where. She didn't marry William Elliot when she went off with him, but she's working on it, and may succeed. It was a big step for her to go off with him. Once she had done that, she would not be accepted in polite society.
I don't think Charles Hayter, the clergyman who will marry Henrietta, had been married before.
Anne's mother is described as having enough interests in life to make her reluctant to leave it.
Something I find surprising is the callousness with which Dick Musgrove's loss is treated. That's not like JA, and I bet she would have softened that part if she had had time.
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Be it known, then, that Sir Walter, like a good father (having met with one or two private disappointments in very unreasonable applications), prided himself on remaining single for his dear daughter's sake.
You're right, Bellamarie. That means that he asked one or two women who it was unreasonable to think might say yes (probably too rich or too noble or women who hardly knew him) and they turned him down.
JoanP, I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure JA visited Lyme Regis in 1804, probably not with any particular literary thing in mind. Although she used all her experiences in books, I don't think she traveled proactively to find material.
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'The way Jane Austen brushes over the dead in her story I am wondering, as fashion was going through a big change....' Good point, Barb. Nothing more impressive than a British state funeral.
Just getting to know Jane Austen, I get the impression she was having to much fun among the living, was too full of the life around her, had her hands too full with the antics of the living, to bother about gloomy death except as a plot device.
I watched a movie version of Pride and Predjudice last night. My, oh my, was that ever lively. The girls are so full of life. Whatever possessed P.D.James to write something like Death Comes To Pemberley. Which should I read first?
Earlier in the day, yesterday, I was best man at my kid brother's wedding. What a happy couple. They're both 82. For a wedding gift I'll get them a deluxe boxed set of Jane Austen. That will keeep them young.
I was intrigued by Lady Russell's part in the story. From beginning to end she remains the 'friend' of Anne. Did she ever make a decision in Anne's best interest? Imagine coupling her with Mr Elliot.
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;) :D ::) Lady Russell and Sir Elliot - mother and son...
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Jonathan, don't read Death Comes to Pemberly before you have read Pride and Prejudice. You'll miss too much. I don't know what made James write it, but it's only partly a success. The mystery part is fine; it's a reasonable puzzle. But she hasn't succeeded in getting the tone right, and her characters sometimes do things JA's characters wouldn't. And she has Elizabeth and Darcy having a number of conversations about their marriage and their feelings for each that they either would have had sooner (they've been married 4 years) or never would have had at all, or, in a surprising number of cases, had already worked through in Pride and Prejudice. So a lot of people don't like it.
There aren't examples of Lady Russell making good decisions for Anne, but Lady R took the role of a mother figure for the grieving 14 year old Anne, and presumably gave her moral support and advice. Since Anne seems grateful, Lady R. probably did a good job.
Congratulations to your brother and his bride! It's nice to see people happy.
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Bellemarie is having JA withdrawals, and Jonathan is giving JA presents! this discussion has been a success!!!! She gets under your skin, doesn't she?
JONATHAN: definitely read all of JA before you read her pale reflections. There are a lot of the later, fuel for those of us like PatH and I who are well and truly hooked. But that's for later, after you've read each of JAs books three times.
We forget how common early death was in those days. By necessity, attitudes toward it were different. Pat and I have copies of a letter written by our great-great grandfather, on passing the cemetery where eight of his ten children were buried.
Young widows and widowers must have been common. It's interesting that it is assumed that a man couldn't get along without a wife, but a woman didn't need a husband. Of course it was assumed that men had sexual needs and woman didn't. In addition, the man of that class needed a wife to raise his children, if he had any, to provide him with an heir if he didn't. Widowed women often either lived in poverty, like Mrs. Smith, or were taken into other families to live as the "poor relation" found in many books.
Notice the little dig at Sir Walter: having failed to find a woman who would marry him, he announces that he is staying unmarried in memory of his wife (and maybe even believes it).
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JoanK., "Notice the little dig at Sir Walter: having failed to find a woman who would marry him, he announces that he is staying unmarried in memory of his wife (and maybe even believes it)."
Good minds think alike, I have felt throughout the entire book, JA did not especially like Sir Walter's character, and took digs at him. After searching and reading many different analysis, of Persuasion, every person gave the same opinion of Sir Walter. He was full of himself, pompous, careless, and uncaring. Even our Captain Wentworth feels this way in the last pages of the book, once he and Anne are finally together:
pg. 711 "Who can be in doubt of what followed? When any two young people take it into their heads to marry, they are pretty sure by perseverance to carry their point, be they ever so poor or ever so imprudent, or ever so little likely to be necessary to each other's ultimate comfort. This may be bad morality to conclude with, but I believe it to be truth; and if such parties succeed, how should a Captain Wentworth and an Anne Elliot, with the advantage of maturity of mind, consciousness of right, and one independent fortune between them, fail of bearing down every opposition? They might, in fact, have borne down a great deal more than they met with, for there was little to distress them beyond the want of graciousness and warmth. Sir Walter made no objection, and Elizabeth did nothing worse than look cold and unconcerned. Captain Wentworth, with five-and-twenty thousand pounds, and as high in his profession as merit and activity could place him, was no longer nobody. He was now esteemed quite worthy to address the daughter of a foolish, spendthrift baronet, who had not had principle or sense enough to maintain himself in the situation in which Providence had placed him, and who could give his daughter at present but a small part of the share of ten thousand pounds which must be hers hereafter.
Sir Walter, indeed, though he had no affection for Anne, had not vanity flattered, to make him really happy on the occasion, was very far from thinking it a bad match for her. On the contrary, when he saw more of Captain Wentworth, saw him repeatedly by daylight, and eyed him well, he was very much struck by his personal claims, and felt that his superiority of appearance might not be unfairly balanced against her superiority of rank; and all of this, assisted by his well-sounding name, enabled Sir Walter, at last to prepare his pen, with a very good grace, for the insertion of the marriage in the volume of honour."
pg. 712 "It cannot be doubted that Sir Walter and Elizabeth were shocked and mortified by the loss of their companion, (Mrs. Clay) and the discovery of their deception in her. They had their great cousins, to be sure, to resort to for comfort; but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment."
JA, really wanted to end this story with the readers not especially liking Sir Walter, or Elizabeth for that matter, showing how neither could care less, about Anne, or of her marrying Captain Wentworth, except for how they may benefit personally from it. With all due respect...... I feel he was a pompous ass!
Jonathan, What a very thoughtful and perfect gift to give to the newlyweds!
Yes, JoanK., JA, does get under your skin. After reading Pride and Prejudice, I would not ever want to read Death Comes to Pemberly if it would mar my great feelings, Pride and Prejudice left me with. Sometimes, it's better to leave perfection alone. Jonathan, I truly loved the humor and feistiness of Elizabeth. I may have to find the movie, and watch it, now that you have voiced you enjoyed it.
Barb, " Lady Russell and Sir Elliot - mother and son..."
NO!!!! I just don't think JA would have intended that scenario, without giving us a hint, or some basis for it.
PatH., I agree, I see Lady Russell as Anne's mother figure, and because of that, I can see her being friends and forgiving. Afterall, Anne did tell Captain Wentworth, pg. 710 "I have been thinking over the past, and trying impartially to judge of the right and wrong, I mean with regard to myself; and I must believe that I was right, much as I suffered from it, that I was perfectly right in being guided by the friend whom you will love better than you do now. To me, she was in the place of a parent. Do not mistake me, however. I am not saying that she did not err in her advice. It was, perhaps, one of those cases in which advice is good or bad only as the event decides; and for myself, I certainly never should, in any circumstance of tolerable similarity, give such advice. But I mean I was right in submitting to her, and that if I had none otherwise, I should have suffered in more in continuing the engagement than I did even in giving it up, because I should have suffered in my conscience. I have now, as far as such a sentiment is allowable in human nature, nothing to reproach myself with; and if I mistake not, a strong sense of duty is no bad part of a woman's portion."
Is this not what any mother/daughter relationship goes through? I know for myself, there were times my mother guided me away from my own feelings and judgement, and I listened to her out of respect and duty. Now that she is no longer with me, I have an enormous contented conscience, as I am certain Anne does.
Ciao for now~
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Oh dear Bellamarie I hoped my selection of smiley faces helped to show it is tongue in cheek fun based on the characteristics of their personalities not a possible reality - it was intended as a wink ;) showing how Lady Russell acted the mother figure with very proper and responsible ways through out the story as compared to Sir Walter with whom a match would have been Lady Russell taking care of his accesses and being the responsible one so he could continue to focus on being the fashionable one. This was not a serious comment on any more than those character traits not as a comment about the suitability of a sick married relationship. In that respect Jane Austen wrote these characters with Lady Russell being mother like as well as a substitude mother for Anne and Sir Walter focused on only the aspect of his life being in sinc with the latest fashion.
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Barb, I didn't think you meant it seriously, I thought it was a passing thought, in jest, as was my response.. I just couldn't even imagine it. lolol :o :o
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Is Anne too good to be true?
No, I don't think Anne, is too good to be true, in the setting of life back in the 1800's. Her attitude, behavior, and feelings were in step with the times. I see a lot of women like Anne today in modern day society, only not quite as persuasive where their love is concerned. Women today can, and do, speak out. and do not feel the obligation to allow someone like Lady Russell, persuade them against what they feel, is not in their best interest. But then money and status quo, are not the driving forces, for marriage today, as strongly as they were back then. Women are as educated, and financially capable as any man today, so the necessity for women to marry for having men provide for their life, is no longer the requirement, which allows today's woman, to choose their perspective husband for love.
I just want to take the time to thank PatH., and JoanK., for a wonderful discussion. Persuasion was not an easy book to carry on a dialogue with at times, yet you both managed to pose questions that kept us going. I would probably never have finished this book, had I picked it up to read by myself, without the discussion group. I'm certain I would have laid it down, hoping to get back to it one day. I am so glad I DID finish it, because as I have said before, JA left the very best for last. The letter Captain Wentworth wrote to Anne, left me hoping my grand daughters will be blessed to find them a Captain Wentworth to live happily ever after with one day. I plan to type this letter up and frame it. It deserves to come outside the novel, into life, to be a constant reminder, love can prevail, and to never give up on love......
Ciao for now`
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Bellamarie, one of the best things about leading this discussion has been sharing something I love with people who are just discovering it. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
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Many thanks to JoanK and PatH and your steady leadership of this discussion. It is clear that you both know and love Jane Austen's work...Janites to the core.
You have stated your opinion of "Pemberly" - I wonder if either ofnyou are familiar with the recent surge of interest in Miss Austen's novels by modern writers as described in this recent article of the Washington Post -
Sense and Sensibility by Joanna Trollope (http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/review-sense-and-sensibility-by-joanna-trollope/2013/10/25/aea70a5a-3693-11e3-8a0e-4e2cf80831fc_story.html)
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Yesterday's Washington Post had a review of the first book of the Austen Project, which is re-writing JA's novels, setting them in modern times. This one is Sense and Sensibility, done by Joanna Trollope.
The reviewer says it is unequivocally worth reading, and though it follows the original closely, the characters manage to take things into their own hands.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/review-sense-and-sensibility-by-joanna-trollope/2013/10/25/aea70a5a-3693-11e3-8a0e-4e2cf80831fc_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/review-sense-and-sensibility-by-joanna-trollope/2013/10/25/aea70a5a-3693-11e3-8a0e-4e2cf80831fc_story.html)
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JoanP, we were posting at the same time.
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Ha! What do you think of this particular project, Pat? Too soon to say?
"Joanna Trollope, the author of many wonderfully readable novels focusing on the ups and downs of British middle-class lives, drew the “Sense and Sensibility” card, and has produced the debut volume in this new series. (Curtis Sittenfeld will bring “Pride & Prejudice” into the present in fall 2014, and Alexander McCall Smith is at work on “Emma.”)"
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There are a lot of re-workings of JA's novels, and one of the oddest is Helen Fielding's Bridget Jones' Diary and The Edge of Reason. The first roughly has the plot of Pride and Prejudice, and the second of Persuasion. In Edge of Reason, Fielding throws in some bits which are not needed for the plot, but just there as in jokes. Someone comments on the Admiral Croft figure's poor driving. The Wentworth figure takes away an unruly child who is bothering the heroine.
Another odd re-working is the movie Clueless, which is Emma set in a Los Angeles high school.
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Ha! What do you think of this particular project, Pat? Too soon to say?
I'll have to read the first one and see. It sounds like fun.
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PatH., Now this is exciting to learn from the link you posted:
Trollope sticks closely to the “Sense and Sensibility” plot: Austen’s horse-drawn coaches become Aston Martins, uncle Sir John Middleton runs an outdoor clothing company that sounds a lot like L.L. Bean, and Marianne sends passionate notes to her heartless lover via e-mail. Like Austen’s Elinor (“sense”), this modern Elinor is still a responsible older sister, who carefully hides her love for the do-good Edward Ferrars. Meanwhile, Marianne (“sensibility”) falls for a caddish John Willoughby — just like the originals.
But there comes a moment, hard to pin down, when Trollope’s characters leave their predecessors behind and become players in their own lives. Even though you may know Austen’s novels well enough to predict exactly what will happen next, you’ll care about finding your way to the happy ending of Trollope’s version.
Aston Martins, L.L. Bean, e-mail, oh my!!! Sounds like one of my favorite movies, I watch faithfully every October..."You've Got Mail"
I always get melancholy when the Little Shop Around the Corner, has to close, because the big "Fox" bookstore (Barnes & Noble) is coming in around the corner. Meg Ryan's character runs to her computer daily to email Tom Hanks character, the two of them falling in love over emails, yet they meet in real life, not knowing they are the people behind the emails. OH I just LOVE this movie! When they finally reveal themselves in the park, I cry every time. Now, it could truly be a JA love story redone.
I don't have a problem with modern day authors, bringing back Austen's books, I would have an issue IF they changed the characters beyond recognition. Then, they would NOT be Austen's, it would just be a cheap trick, to make money off of JA's accomplishments.
PatH., "Another odd re-working is the movie Clueless, which is Emma set in a Los Angeles high school."
Oh my heavens, I have seen Clueless, but never read Emma.... now this is interesting! You just keep surprising me!
Ciao for now~
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The more I dwell on this story and the writing the more themes I conjure that I see as messages to guide living today. I only read recently how many people after reading an effective story or seeing a movie that stirred them emotionally often continue a version of the story in their heads - forgot now but there was a name for this phenomenon. Sounds like many are affected by this story who bring the themes and character types into another time and place and do not keep it solely in their heads but commit their imagined extension of Jane Austen's story on paper.
I am still bawled over by her writing - she can say so much indirectly using beautiful words and sentence structure. Just amazing. Wonder if it was a gift or the way many spoke who just did not put on paper their views on life.
Yes, JoanK and PatH this was a great experience - so glad we had someone lighting the path for us - thanks...
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"Now, it [You've Got mail] could truly be a JA love story redone."
If I remember correctly, when Ryan and Hanks were supposed to meet the first time, she was to carry a copy of "Pride and Prejudice" so he would recognize her.
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JoanK., Alas!!! YOU are so smart!!! YES indeed, Ryan sat at the little table, waiting for Hanks to show up, and she has Pride and Prejudice and the rose, with her. He comes in, does NOT reveal to her his true identity as the email friend, but instead mentions the book she is reading. I totally forgot that until your post. NOT, a coincidence, I dare say, for the producers decision to use the book in the script. Now I have a wonderful connection, of my two favorites, Pride and Prejudice and You've Got Mail. Thank you so much for remembering that little, but very important tidbit. And like Mr. Darcey and Elizbeth, Ryan and Hanks spar throughout the entire movie, and you just can't help but root for them to end up together. Oh gosh I just have to go watch the movie now. I have it on VHS and DVD. I was afraid my VHS tape would not hold up through the years.
Ciao for now~
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My curiosity got the best of me. I had to Google for info:
You've Got Mail is a 1998 American romantic comedy film directed by Nora Ephron, starring Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan. It was written by Nora and Delia Ephron based on the play Parfumerie by Miklós László. The film is about two e-mailing lovers who are completely unaware that their sweetheart is, in fact, a person with whom they share a degree of animosity. An adaptation of Parfumerie was previously made as The Shop Around the Corner, a 1940 film by Ernst Lubitsch and also a 1949 musical remake, In the Good Old Summertime by Robert Z. Leonard starring Judy Garland. You've Got Mail updates that concept with the use of e-mail. Influences from Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice can also be seen in the relationship between Joe Fox and Kathleen Kelly — a reference pointed out by these characters actually discussing Mr. Darcy and Miss Bennet in the film. Ephron insists that You've Got Mail was as much about the Upper West Side itself as the characters, highlighting the "small town community" feel that pervades the Upper West Side.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You've_Got_Mail
As I remember, Kathleen Kelly is actually making a dig at Joe Fox, by inferring he is nothing like someone as gallant as Mr. Darcey, because she has found out he is indeed "FOX" books, who is causing her Little Shop Around the Corner to close. I love their banter. :)
Ciao for now~
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While we're talking about movies: if anyone wants to seal off their experience by watching one of the many versions, I strongly recommend the 1995 BBC production with Ciaran Hinds and Amanda Root. So much of the book is inward--people's thoughts--and they manage to bring this out. It's superbly cast. Almost all of the characters look and act just right. Of course they had to cut things to fit the movie length, but they did it well.
The more recent production shown on PBS when they were doing all of JA's works isn't nearly as good. The characters are kind of smoothed out. William Elliot and Captain Wentworth don't seem all that different, and you don't get any notion of what a salty character Admiral Croft is.
There are other movies. If anyone has seen any, I'd like to know what they are like.
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I just watched the movie on Ovation channel. I am with Direct tv and somehow have overlooked this channel. Surprise, surprise this channel shows a lot of "classic" movies. They will be showing The Odyssey in the next week. That is one of the books my ftf book club will be reading; so I have programmed it in. The movie Persuasion was well done and followed the book closely.
Sally
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Pat, I just read your post in The Library. It reminded me of something I had seen in a link provided by Winchesterlady some time ago. Checking back, I find it in post 131, Oct 6. What do you say to this:
'Joanna Trollope, whose contemporary version of Sense and Sensibility will be published later this year, is struck by the original novel’s similarities with E L James’s sexually explicit Fifty Shades of Grey.'
I can't begin to tell you how enjoyable I've found this discussion. Thanks to everyone for all the advice on how to read Jane Austen. And I'm well into Pride and Predjuice. I love it. It's hilarious.
About Anne Elliot, Jane Austen is on record as saying to a friend: 'You may perhaps like the heroine, as she is almost too good for me.'
Clearly, there's more to Jane Austen than would seem.
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Jonathan, 'Joanna Trollope, whose contemporary version of Sense and Sensibility will be published later this year, is struck by the original novel’s similarities with E L James’s sexually explicit Fifty Shades of Grey.'
Say it ain't so. It would be a shame if someone used JA's beautiful love story and trashed it, and deduced it down to explicit sex. E. L. James has made millions off those books, and in my honest opinion, 50 Shades of Grey is not about love whatsoever, it is about dominance, physical, mental, emotional, and sexual abuse, brought upon an innocent young virgin. When those books came out, I made my then 16 yr old granddaughter promise me to not read them. I was horrified at how women found these books romantic, and Christian Grey, someone they would want as a boyfriend. Christian Grey vs. Captain Wentworth....hands down, gallantry over a controlling sexual pervert. I said I felt these books should have come with an adult maturity warning. Music, videos, x-box games, magazines with explicit sex and violence has ratings on them, this book should be sold with the same warning. I felt so sorry for the woman character, I kept screaming while reading, someone save her from this horrible man, and herself. I did not read book 3, after I realized this story is not about anything more than abuse, and there was no way the author could justify to me, Grey's behavior, nor could she convince me. any amount of therapy could change the evil, abusive man he is. I kept thinking about professionals telling us all these years that "control and abuse" is not an illness that can be cured, it is about dominating. This is why sex offenders, must now be registered. My daughter in law is a case worker for an unwed mother's program, and sees women being abused like this, and she could not finish reading the books. She said, sadly, women accept this in hopes of happily ever afters, and some end up dead instead, from not knowing to get out of relationships like this. Christian Grey should have been put in prison for his actions, rather than romanticized. The abuse in these books, reminded me of the movie Julia Roberts played in years ago, "Sleeping With the Enemy." It's interesting how they could not get any well known actor to play the part of Christian Grey in the soon to be made movie, because they did not want to be associated with the disgusting character, for fear it would ruin their acting career. So two unknowns, will be playing the main character parts.
Sorry for the rant, these books really do offend, and insult me as a woman.
Jonathan, I knew you would enjoy Pride and Prejudice!
Ciao for now~
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You're excused. I haven't read the book, but am well aware that for centuries, control and abuse of women has been accepted, even glorified.
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'It would be a shame....'
That's my reaction too, Bellamarie. I had no idea 50 SHADES is that offensive. I've read other opinions much like yours, and so I wondered if someone seeing a similarity between it and Jane Austen's Sense And Sensibility, is the right person to rework S&S into a modern version.
Jane Austen must be turning over in her grave. And I'm sorry about posting the quote.
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About Anne Elliot, Jane Austen is on record as saying to a friend: 'You may perhaps like the heroine, as she is almost too good for me.'
You've found me out, Jonathan. That's what led me to put in question #8. IMHO, she just manages to avoid being too good. She is awfully good, but her passionate nature, her inner frustration at the restrictions imposed on her, and her anguish at how things seem to be going to turn out keep her totally sympathetic.
Her goodness represents one of JA's themes--the importance of living your life according to strict principles. Anne manages to do this and still seem human.
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No apology necessary, Jonathan, it's good to know, so I will stay away from, Joanna Trollope, whose contemporary version of Sense and Sensibility.
Just began reading Remarkable Creatures, I love that the book is taking place in Lyme Regis, since I feel familiar with it from Persuasion. I don't know much about fossils, but I think TC is about to give us a whole lot of knowledge, with Mary Anning and Elizabeth hunting on the beaches daily. Come on over and join the discussion, we can all walk the cliffs as JA's characters did, and we just might find a jewel in the sand!
Ciao for now~
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Have yourself a fine time in Lyme Regis, Bellamarie. I don't have the book, but I'll be following along anyways. You'll be taking many associations with you after reading Jane Austen. She practically made a shrine out of Lyme Regis, with many readers going there to walk where Anne Elliot felt so at home.
I'm sure fossils can be made exciting, but while you're down there, look for the story. Things are always happening on the English coast. My favorite spot is Tintagel in Cornwall, with its magnificent cliffs. King Arthur was born there in the castle, while Merlin was practicing his magic in his cave at the foot of the cliff. Awesome.
You may just see Anne and Franklin walking along the sea wall, or perhaps a lonely figure dreaming up a plot. Whoops!! Watch your step.
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I've really enjoyed walking with you all along that seawall and in Bath. I always say it, but its always true: you are the best fellow-discussants ever. Keep us up on your further adventures with Jane Austen.
I can't believe the month is over already. I'm off to trick or treat with my grandkids tonight (I wonder what JA would have made of that custom? Is there anything like it in England?) And then tomorrow, back to Lyme with fossils and the beach.
See you there!
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The tradition of going from door to door receiving food already existed in Great Britain and Ireland in the form of "souling", where children and poor people would sing and say prayers for the dead in return for cakes. Guising—children disguised in costumes going from door to door for food and coins—also predates American trick or treat that started in Minnesota with the first time costumed children knocked doors in 1940 , where as guising is recorded in Scotland at Halloween in 1895, where masqueraders in disguise carrying lanterns made out of scooped out turnips, visit homes to be rewarded with cakes, fruit and money. While going from door to door in disguise has remained popular among Scots and Irish, the North American custom of saying "trick or treat" has recently become common
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Only since 1940? I must have been one of the earliest trick-or-treaters! I was 7 then, And I must have started a few years after that.
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I am remembering more pranks with front gates on roofs and outhouses tumped over but no treats - the treats were on Thanksgiving morning when dressed as raggamuffins we did not get candy but apples with coins stuck in or loose change that we could use to buy one small chocolate turkey and the rest towards Christmas.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. Everyone is welcome.
October Book Club Online
Persuasion by Jane Austen
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Persuasioncover.jpg) |
“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion
Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.
Discussion schedule:
Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12
Oct 13-18--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)
Oct 19-?--Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12) |
Some things to think about: Chapters 19-24 (Book 2, 7-12)
1. How does Austen maintain suspense in this last section? Did you feel it as you read? What did you feel?
2. Anne doesn't take action herself, but waits for others. Why?
3. When Wentworth talks to Anne, she feels "agitation, pain, pleasure, a something between delight and misery." Have you ever felt like that? Under what circumstances?
4. Wentworth says "Bentwick is something more [than amiable, sweet-tempered and understanding]. He is a clever man, a reading man." But Charles says "His reading has done him no harm, for he has fought as well as read."Are we "something more" because we are reading people? Does it do us harm?
5. Why doesn't Mrs. Smith tell Anne what she knows at once? Is this realistic?
6. [Women] "certainly do not forget you [men] as easily as you forget us. It is, perhaps, our fate rather than our merit." Do you agree?
7. In none of Austen's books does she write dialog declaring love. Why do you think this is? What did you think of the device Austen uses instead?
8. Is Anne too good to be true?
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/persuasion/Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg)
DLs: PatH (rjhighet@earthlink.net ) & JoanK (
rjhighet@earthlink.net
joankraft13@yahoo.com )
What an interesting post Barb! At my CCD class last night, Fr. Chris came in to talk to my 3rd graders about the Blessed Trinity, and faith. We just happened to be discussing All Saints Day, since we had done our Saint project the week before. I was explaining to my students how in Ireland and other far off lands, many years ago, Halloween was about All Hallow's Eve, the night before All Saint's Day, an event that occurred because, the people were frightened about saints coming to life, hence ghouls, ghosts and goblins. The walking dead.....so anyway, Fr. Chris walks in, and hears part of our discussion, and he tells the children when he was a missionary in Angola, Africa, how there are actual witches, who would cast spells. The students eyes just about popped out!!!
I told my hubby on the way home from class, that I can only imagine what the parents will think, once the children go home tonight and tell their parents about Saints being thought of as, walking dead, and witches in Africa, casting spells. lololol I just hope they remember to tell about the Blessed Trinity and faith, which was the larger part of Fr. Chris's visit.
Jonathan, Sorry you won't be traveling to Lyme Regis with us, but then again, you never know who can be seen in the early morning mist on the ocean. We will all look forward to you adding some kind of info as you follow along. JoanK., I am already enjoying the search for fossils on the beach with Mary A. & Eliz. It looks like it will be an interesting book.
Happy Halloween!!!! to all you ghosts, goblins and ghouls out there......our city postponed our trick or treat night due to heavy winds & rain.
Ciao for now~
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LOL. Have you heard anything from the parents?
We had a great crowd of disguised kids come to the door last night. The scariest, and the most imposing. By herself and looking very regal in her long gown and coronet, a pretty, 3-year old had a little difficulty coming up the steps. My wife does the shelling out and greeted her with the suggestion that steps might be a problem for a princess. The tot drew herself up with a fine, royal hauteur and the words, I not (sic) a princess, I'm a queen! My wife said she was about to do a curtsey, but her knees wouldn't allow it. The queen left happily with her double treat.
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Long may she reign!
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No, Jonathan.....not a word from any parents....YET! So, the Queen has spoken! how adorable that was, thanks for sharing.
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It's time to archive this discussion. Thank you all for such a good time.