Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - by Shaffer & Barrows

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The year is 1946.  Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war."  Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one  that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war.

Discussion Schedule: Feb. 1-7   *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946 Feb. 8-14    *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946 Feb. 15-21   *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946 Feb. 22-28     *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

Feb. 22-28    Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

 
1. What did you think of this novel made up entirely of letters as a means of telling a story? Did it work for you?  Did the characters come alive through this means of expression?
 
2.  What historical facts concerning World War II  did you discover?  Can fiction sometimes make historic events more understandable or does it distort the facts?

3. Do you  believe that books have the power to lift people out of the most trying circumstances?

4.  Juliet sees Dawsey Adams as Charles Lamb.  Did she ever see him as Jane Austen's Mr. Rochester or Mr.Darcy? Are these men at all alike? How was Dawsey different from  other men Juliet had known?

5. What effect did Remy Girard's arrival  on the scene after the war have on the members of the literary society?  What was Juliet's reaction to her coming?  Why did Remy decide to leave?

6. Why do you think Isola's grandmother's letters from Oscar Wilde about cats were included in this story?

7. When did you first suspect that  Juliet and Dawsey might become romantically involved?  What part did Isola play in making the match?
 
8. Why do you think the authors decided to end the book with Isola's "Detection Notes"?  Did they add an element to the story that could not have been achieved in letters?

9.  What does a reader’s taste in books say about his or her personality?
Which characters'  literary opinions are most like your own? Did you have a favorite?

10. Do you agree with Isola that “reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad one"?
Are there some "good books"  you intend to read as a result of this book discussion?

Related Links: Author's Biography; Visit Guernsey ;   A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 ; Charles Lamb - Selected Essays ; the letters of Seneca; Annie Barrows Responds to Readers

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and Pedln

[bellamarie]

straudetwo,

But clearly, we have not learned anything from history and continue to repeat past mistakes with impunity. Forgive me for being frank - that's the only way I can function.

Indeed we do, continue to repeat the past mistakes with impunity.  Sad as it is.  I welcome your frankness.  Thank you.

[BarbStAubrey]

thanks for sharing straudetwo - your story reminds  us that experiencing war is monstrous on so many levels - one of the difficult aspects of WWII is that almost like the Civil War we were fighting our own - The German  immigrant heavily populated this country and after WWII there was such shame that so many German customs have disappeared as they and the use of the German language were no longer practiced - It is so much easier to  keep the black and white view of the world we were taught as children and your sharing helps to remind us of the ambiguity that is more common -

Even Hitler who we see as a  monster and  yet, he wanted to bring back pride in Germany and chose to act on an age old view of Jews that was written about in the Bismark letters. This was written in 1912 long before Hitler's rise to power - http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/class.html

We have to thank Hitler for our Interstate highway - it was Eisenhower who was impressed with the autobahn and thought the US could benefit from such a highway system - we have Hitler to thank for the small car since he was a strong supporter of the Volkswagen Bug - We  may have been about a chicken in every pot during the 1930s while Hitler was about a car in every garage.

I think this story shows  us the two sides of the German people - there is the Doctors who within their limited ability helped the people on Guernsey and then the guards who brutalized all  humanity with their actions to a few.

I too often wonder what is it that allows some people to do such awful things - in this search I remember reading with others from Seniornet History: A Novel by Lisa Morante that included scenes of German soldiers brutality in Italy - what struck me was they were roaming soldiers without leadership so that their actions were not ordered - then I remember reading Slaughter House Five and learning of the mass German population killed 25 deep in the bomb cellars in Dresden. http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm

Little by little I have read how people who misuse power do so because they can - and research by some University back east had students take live positions as guards and prisoners for hours and days at a time - the guards became so cruel they had to stop the experiment for the safety of the student play acting prisoners -

All to say within all of us is a capacity that we have never had to tap and who knows how we will act - we would like to think we will be honorable but until we learn what triggers unspeakable acts we really cannot be 100% sure of expecting anyone to act within the limits of human decency.

I have a friend who often says that there is no hell in the after life - it is here on earth.

In our story what is interesting to me is that Elizabeth's death is treated with dignity - she was not  impulsively shot like a dog on the spot - rather the next day the soldiers form a guard around her and she was taken to a Poplar grove where the trees line a walkway and where she was executed in a kneeling position. Toward the end of the war for the Germans to take that much care in her execution is suggesting in this story this must be symbolic of something more than one women having been shot in the camps.

[bellamarie]

Before I shut my computer down for the night, I wanted to remember our dear friend (tooth fairy) Gumtree, since it is officially Sunday.

Gumtree,

Sunday is to be a national day of mourning for the victims when maybe we can come to terms with the tragedy.

Please know my prayers will be with you, and all of Australia, on your day of mourning.  I will light a candle and place your "national day of mourning", in our book of prayers when I attend mass today.

[JoanP]

I agree with PatH, Traudee.  Your experiences enrich the discussion tremendously.  Is it still difficult to talk about - after so many years?  John Booker wrote to Juliet that he couldn't talk about what went on in Belsen to anyone - he said he "got the shakes" just thinking about it.  He remembers the guards playing polkas as he dragged the dead - and the dying  - to mass grave sites.

 How long after the war did you learn what was going on in the camps?  Did it come out as big news all at once, or did you begin to hear individual rumors before the atrocities were officially recognized?
 John Booker is a fictional character, but I imagine there were others who actually managed to survive  until the liberation.   I imagine too that it was a long time, if ever, before they could talk about their experiences there.

All to say within all of us is a capacity that we have never had to tap and who knows how we will act - we would like to think we will be honorable but until we learn what triggers unspeakable acts we really cannot be 100% sure of expecting anyone to act within the limits of human decency.

Barbara, these are sobering thoughts as we struggle to understand the limits of human decency.  Thank you Traudee - and Barbara,  for sharing with us.  I'm certain that Mary Ann Shaffer struggled with this as she researched the camps for the characters of Remy Girard and John Booker. 

What strikes me and sustains is the resiliency of the human spirit -
{{{Gum}}} - our thoughts and prayers are with you and Australia as you mourn.

[JoanP]

Here we are - the final week!

We have been very much aware of our tight-lipped lurkers, waiting all this time to weigh in with your thoughts as we leisurely made our way to the end of the story.   We can't wait to hear from you, at last!

I enjoyed the suspense  right to the very end...but in hindsight, there were so many clues revealed in each of the letters there weren't many surprises, were there?  Were there? Were you satisfied with the denouement?

Have a lovely Sunday, everyone!  Carpe diem, as Juliet would say!

[Steph]

Oh me,, I finished the whole thing and will withhold comment. I have to confess that I thought Sydney was gay from day one. No idea just why, although I think it has to do with the fact that Juliets letters to him were very female to female types.

[Gumtree]

Thanks for your prayers and hugs - they mean so much more than I can say...Such an emotional day for everyone but a day of release and I think the beginning of the healing process. - I didn't watch the whole official ceremony televised from Melbourne but preferred to be part of our local tribute here in the west. It seemed so much more personal and real to me.

Thank you again for caring.

Carpe Diem indeed JoanP - I'm off to read the last section....well after I get some sleep...

[Babi]

"..who knows how we will act?"  So true.  I remember once being asked if I (being a Christian) would be afraid to die.  I replied, "I like to think I would not, but I don't want to brag about something before I've actually done it."

I forgot yesterday to answer the question of how I became interested in reading Marcus Aurelius' Meditations.  It's been so long ago, but as best I remember I read something about Marcus Aurelius that intrigued me, and about stoicism, which struck a chord with me.  My Dad taught me that crying over a physical hurt did not help the problem, and he set an example in his own life of personal honor and integrity.  So I found much in the "Meditations" that I could relate to.

 Bellamarie, I did not see Elizabeth's drawings and stories as something deeply personal.  Then, too, they were Kit's heritage.  I was so pleased to read that Elizabeth had left drawings of the island people, her little girl Kit, and of Christian.  The one of Christian, especially, will be such a treasure to the little girl.  As will the stories about Christian, ...like his coming to Amelia, as a sort of ‘guardian’ to Elizabeth,  to explain his ‘intentions’.  Such a wonderful 'inheritance'.

In the letter of 7/19 from Juliet to Sidney we have more stories about Elizabeth and Christian from all over the island.  Elizabeth and Jane spreading their lunch on Mr. Muliss’ tombstone. Christian pitching in to help dig a grave when the ground was ice-hard.  And more instances of the decent German soldiers who tried to help, like the ones who made sure some potatoes or oranges ‘rolled off’ the trucks so the children could have them.

[pedln]

So here we are in the final week, hopefully ready to tie up all the pieces.  I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's comments, and also their questions, because I've got plenty.

Babi, thanks for bringing up those Elizabeth stories, planting them squarely in front of us.  I know I’m going to need to hear more from everyone before I can begin to answer JoanP’s question -- 

Were you satisfied with the denouement?

   

I wasn’t quite sure what that was, but here’s a web definition. 

Denouement - the final unraveling of the plot following the climax (same as resolution)In literature, a dénouement (IPA:/deˈnuːmɑ̃/) consists of a series of events that follow the climax of a drama or narrative, and thus serves as the conclusion of the story. Conflicts are resolved, creating normality for the characters and a sense of catharsis, or release of tension and anxiety, for the reader. Etymologically, the French word dénouement is derived from the Old French word denoer, "to untie", and from nodus, Latin for "knot." Simply put, dénouement is the unraveling or untying of the complexities of a plot.The dénouement comprises events after the climax and the falling action (which should not be confused with dénouement).

So, have we reached a climax?    And here is another web definition.  I’m not trying to be ultra-literary.  I just have a lot of questions, and don’t know the answers.

A

climax includes three elements. The most important element is that 1. the protagonist experiences a change. 2.  The main character discovers something about himself or herself, and another unknown character. 3.   The last element is revealing the theme itself.

My first thinking was that the climax is when Juliet arrived in  Guernsey.  Is it?  She discovers that she has some new feelings for Dawsey (2)   She also discovers new things about Elizabeth, and of course is getting to know and love Kit, whom she wants to raise.
We may not all agree that that is the climax, or that Juliet is the main character, and who what is the protagonist.

Were you satisfied with the denouement?

  I don’t know if it were denouement or falling action, but I thought some parts of this last section were contrived.  The Bille-Bee business.  I’m not sure I even understand why that was in there.  And I need to reread about Sidney’s gift to Isola, why the phrenology book was included.

But what disturbed most was the author leaving the letter format, going to notes by Isola.  When I’ve encountered that sort of things in other books I’ve always thought it to be a bit of ‘dirty pool.’

Please don’t get me wrong.  I’ve loved the book.  It’s one of those that just absorbed and wrapped itself around me.  But there are just a few things that bother me about it.

[JudeS]

I was going to write a lot but decided to write just a little.

For me the book was delightful because it housed so diverse a group of people each on a journey to find out :

1)What authors should I read ? What can they do for me?
2) Who should I LOVE?  What are the things that would make me happy with this person rather than with that one?
3)Where should I live?  What place will give me the security I seek?

The author was a great optimist who said to me, "Out of misery will come great joy. Out of sorrow for some will grow great and unexpected happiness for others."

Jude

[mabel1015j]

I tho't it was a very enjoyable book about a topic of which i haven't read before. It was fairly predictable, that's o.k. I think we may have analyzed it way beyond the authors' thinking, but that was fun also.

We can get very self-righteous and judgemental about characters in a book and what they should or should not be doing, but it is hard to foresee what we would do ourselves in similar circumstances and would we be as upright in our behavior as we would like to think. In circumstances that at the moment we can not even imagine - i think of those poor people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur. How would i behave if my family was in danger, i can't tell you. I have been very strong in situations where there was not much danger in my speaking up or doing what i tho't was the right thing, but something that would affect my family's survival?? ............................i don't know....................jean

[JoanR]

This book was a wonderful surprise for me and a lesson, too.  When I first heard about it, I rather dismissed it as chick lit but, boy, did I ever change my mind when I started checking reviews and reading the actual book!  No more pre-judgements here!

The novel of letters worked just fine for me although that was another surprise.  I found that the characters came more alive because you were reading their own words and not those of  a second party.  I learned quite a bit about Guernsey and the occupation and I was introduced to books and authors that I was unfamiliar with.  I now have "The Book of Ebenezer le Page" and "Elizabeth and Her German Garden" - & will be tracking down the rest of her books.  What a fantastic character she was!!

I've read some of Seneca's Epistles and will look for Marcus Aurelius.  I still have some of my college papers on Epictetus, another of the Stoics, and was reminded of him.

This book ended exactly the way I hoped it would.  I'm happy!  That reminds me, since Oscar Wilde was brought up in the book, are any of you familiar with his fairy tales - in particular, "The Happy Prince"?  I dearly love that story even though it always makes me cry.  It's available on-line if a book is not handy.  Do, do read it!!!!

[bellamarie]

I will say the book was educational, as far as, geography, The Occupation, and classical writers and their works. I found it entertaining, predictable to the point of frustrating me, inconsistent, enjoyable and humorous. This is the first novel I have experienced, using the epistolary style, and found it easy to get to know the characters quickly, since they were each writing their personal letters.  Although, I am not sure, the author kept true to the characters. 

I was disappointed once we came to the climax, of Juliet arriving in Guernsey.  Although, I'm not sure, if finding out how Elizabeth died, was more the climax for me, since I was more focused on Elizabeth's life, even though I suspected early on she would be dead.  Juliet, the character lost my interest, and believability somewhere before she even arrived in Guernsey.  I'm still not sure, I even know why.  The way things happened so quickly, once she arrived, left me feeling out of breath at times.  I found no significance in the odd parts of Billie Bee, the Oscar Wilde letters, the reading head bumps, and then the motorbike racing.  So, by the time Isola concocts a story to clean Dawsey's house, to find clues of his love for Remy, and she relates back to Juliet, her finding her letters, hankderchief etc., which gives Juliet the insight to "Carpe Diem ", I'm saying to myself, "NO WAY am I buying any of this." 

I like quirky, unpredictable, interesting, unusual and even spontenaity in story themes and characters.  But for me the last pages of this story, made no sense, to me. I guess, the best way for me to put it, is like Adelaide said,  "I hear you and that pig-farmer are going to regularize your connection."  I'll leave out, Praise the Lord!  Instead, I shall say as usual....And they lived, happily ever after.......

I will take with me, the fact I learned so many fantastic authors, books and essays, I will pursue and add to my book shelf.  I now know, Charles Lamb, Charles Morley, The Bronte' sisters, Seneca and Jane Austen and hope to get to know them even better.


 

[maryz]

I thoroughly enjoyed this book (as did my husband).  I wasn't looking for any deep meanings or symbolism. I liked the letter format - it reminded me of an old favorite, 84 Charing Cross Road.  I just enjoyed reading a well-written story.  It did make us both want to include Guernsey on any trip we might take in that area.  I've recommended the book to many people - just as a fun, pleasant read.  Nothing more needed, IMHO.

[lucky]

I have been having trouble getting through.  This is the third time that I am trying to send a comment.  I hope this goes through otherwise I will not be able to continue in the group.

Have any of you read "Suite Francais" bu Irene Nemerovsky?  Here too we have a romance between a German soldier and a French woman.  The question "why would the Islander girls and Dawsey Adams fraternize with German soldiers" is really two questions.  The women's reasons were not the same as that of Dawsey. There were few eligible men left on the island.  The girls who dated the Germans also obtained food which fed their families.  Dawsey hints at another reason, bordom which he feels is a powerful reason for fraternization.  Some of the Germans in Guernsey were kind to the natives, something we find hard to believe, as they are the brutal "Huns."  In the second part of "Suite Francais", called "Dolce" the author also creates the Germans as kind, too kind to my way of thinking.  In Guernsey, some of the German invaders are kind, caring, etc, such as Elizabeth's lover, Captain Christian Hellman.  He is the one who helped Dawsey and was always kind to him.  The author tells that the young women were drawn to the Germans.  In "Suite Francais" the young women were also drawn to the soldiers, who they found to be gentlemen.  For Lucille Angellier in "Suite Francais" the young soldier billeted with her awakened feelings of love.  The need for love does not abide by rules of warfare.  Young people everywhere are drawn to each other and in times of stress the need for affection knows no rules of engagement.
The story of the destruction of the dogs was horrid.  I'm afraid that this may occur in our country as well.  Many are giving up their pets as they are unable to care for them because of the economy.  The pounds are running out of room and I'm afraid that soon they too will be euthanizing them. 

There is so much history in this book that it is really a treasure trove of British history during the World War 11 period.

[bellamarie]

maryz,

I thoroughly enjoyed this book (as did my husband).  I wasn't looking for any deep meanings or symbolism.

I have a feeling, I would have liked the book much more, had I not looked for deeper meanings, and symbolism.  I may read it again, at my leisure one day.

[BarbStAubrey]

http://www.thisisguernsey.com/2008/10/09/chewy-changes/

[pedln]

Lucky, you made it in, good.  I have heard positive things about the “Suite Francais,” but have not read it.  You have pointed out many parallels between it and our story here on Guernsey, especially about the relationships existing between the invaders and those being invaded.  Truthfully, I have not seen much of that in other books about war.

Barbara, thanks for the link.  I was looking for a map to try and pin point Chouet, but no luck.  From what I could find, it looks to be on the northwest side of the island, pretty harsh looking, but also noted for its tea shops.  Ah, don’t we all want to join MaryZ and her husband on their trip to Guernsey.

Bellamarie, I think one can do what one want s with the symbolism and deeper meanings, especially with a book like this, where there is so much to engage the reader.  It’s there, if you want it, but the book is still a delight without digging deeper.  I’ve enjoyed  serendipitous finds that link this book to others, such as van Arnims’s Enchanted April, which I hope to watch this week.  And just the other day, in my P.D. James novel, Inspector Dalgleish  contemplates why the best war poetry came from WW I, instead of WW II.  And he wonders what has kept a promising character from becoming another Wilford Owen.  And I’m so happy to know what he’s talking about.

JoanR, I think you’ve found some of those links also, with your book of Ebeneezer Page and Elizabeth and her German Garden.  Had it not been for the digging of this group I would have forever thought that latter just to be a made-up title.  But please refresh my memory about the Happy Prince – there’s something about his eyes  .   .   .   .

MaryZ, and everyone else who is dreaming of a trip – if you can get to London, you can get to Guernsey

Getting to the Channel Islands

[bellamarie]

pedln, 

Bellamarie, I think one can do what one want s with the symbolism and deeper meanings, especially with a book like this, where there is so much to engage the reader.  It’s there, if you want it, but the book is still a delight without digging deeper.

I fear you confused my post with:
maryz's,

I thoroughly enjoyed this book (as did my husband).  I wasn't looking for any deep meanings or symbolism.

pedln, I would like to read it again at my leisure to try to discover for myself, when, where and why, I disconnected with Juliet, and why I was left feeling frustrated.  I generally root for the happily ever after endings.  I sense many of the people who read this book, will find connections to other books they have read, or will read in the future, as you mentioned you are doing. 

I like how Mary Ann so eloquently said:

"If nothing else, I hope these characters and their story shed some light on the sufferings and strength of the people of the Channel Islands during the German Occupation.  I hope too, that my book will illuminate my belief that love of art_be it poetry, storytelling, painting, sculpture, or music__enables people to transcend any barrier man has yet devised."

I think she and Annie would be extremely pleased with our discussion of their book. 

As Annie said in her email to me:  "Just like the Guernsey Literary Society itself, part of our purpose was to goad people into reading the books we love."

Mission accomplished!!

[Steph]

I loved reading about the occupation and the island and the people there. But I did not like the contrived ending. That made it way close to romance writing. The whole Oscar Wilde diversion was sort of weird. Still I am glad I read it. I never even knew about The Nazis and the islands off Britain and I loved hearing and reading about them. Do intend to look up some factual stuff on the occupation. One of those.. want to know more sort of things.

[FlaJean]

My husband and I both thoroughly enjoyed this book.  Because it was on the library reserve list, we read it straight through in order to get it back for other readers.  I particularly liked the ending.  It was very satisfying.
I did shed a few tears when I read about Elizabeth's treatment and death in the concentration camp.

[JoanP]

Good morning, FlaJean - I'm curious to hear your husband's response to the book?  Did he have the emotional moments that you did?

What a good morning this is!  Thank you all for your input!  When you take in all the posts in one big gulp along with the morning coffee - you can't help but be struck by the many facets of this book - the historical, the geographical, the literary, the psychological, sociological - and then of course, the story, told entirely in letters.  Imagine yourself the author confronted with the enormity of such a project! 
I'd like to concentrate first of all, on your response to the question - did it work for you?   From your posts, it seems that you came away with a better understanding of history, geography, an interest in reading more ...
For starters, I'd like to focus on the story itself.  I'm still trying to decide what I thought about the "dénouement" - as Pedln said yesterday - dénouement is the unraveling or untying of the complexities of a plot. 
Out comes the old French teacher in  me - A "noeud" is a knot in French.  So when you unravel or untie the knot, those threads have been there all along, right?  Those of us who thought we knew Juliet from her letters didn't really see her becoming romantically involved with Dawsey...but in hindsight, the authors never indicated otherwise, did they?

 MaryZ - even though you weren't looking for the symbolism and hidden meanings, the authors, I think,  were generous with  innuendos and references to Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice.  Jean, you found the outcome "fairly predictable."   It was difficult for me not to let you know until now Annie Barrows' reply to a question you and Laura posed two weeks ago,  regarding Dawsey's name.  I was afraid it might spoil things for those who hadn't finished the final letters in the book. 

From Jean in New Jersey - At some point while reading "Dawsey" my mind went to "Dorsey." Depending on your accent the two words sound very much alike and the love story between he and Juliet has similarities to Austen's story." Is she close?
From Laura in Maine:  Where did  Dawsey’s name came from?  It’s unusual. Has anyone heard it before?

Annie wrote: - Yes, Dawsey's name is related to Mr. Darcy's, and Juliet's initials aren't J. A. by accident.

   
Had any of you noticed that Juliet Ashton and Jane Austen shared the same initials?

Our beef seems to be with the rise of Isola's importance in the end.  Is that how you saw it?  Did she become the pivotal character?  What do you think the authors intended here...

Steph  - "I did not like the contrived ending. That made it way close to romance writing. The whole Oscar Wilde diversion was sort of weird."

Pedln:  I thought some parts of this last section were contrived.  The Bille-Bee business.  I'm not sure I even understand why that was in there.  And I need to reread about Sidney’s gift to Isola, why the phrenology book was included.

Do you all feel this way?  Can we talk about these particular anecdotes and why the authors might have felt they were important here?  I am really interested in how you saw Isola's role.

[Babi]

 We have said very little about Remy.  If nothing else, her presence is significant in that Juliet believed Dawsey was falling in love with her, and it awakened her to a realization of her own feelings.

…Remy in Guernsey, watching Kit play in the sea.  Remy is still very fragile, and when she briefly touches Juliet on the shoulder: “I felt as if she had given me a gift -- even such a tiny gesture as a touch takes trust--and I was glad she felt safe with me.” 
  I’ve felt that when coming to know a child.  The first time they approach you voluntarily, perhaps lean briefly against your knee, show you something they treasure, it’s a gesture of trust and it’s very precious.

  I loved the description of the scholarly Sir William Otis, who came to examine Granny Pheen’s letters.   “He settled grimly among Isola’s sheaves of hemlock and hyssop, dusted his fingers with a snowy handkerchief, fitted a little  glass into on e eye, and slowly removed the first letter from the biscuit tin.”  Such respectful care in handling the letters. And I even appreciated the author’s selection of ‘hemlock and hyssop’ as a setting.

And what about Billie Bee and that telegram to Juliet?!  Alarms went off when I read that telegram.  Sending silly Billie Bee to pick up the letters…the originals, no less?  Sidney would certainly have notified Juliet himself if that’s what he wanted.  I do not trust this woman!





   

[pedln]

Bellamarie, although my comments were directed to all, I wasn’t confusing you with anyone.

I have a feeling, I would have liked the book much more, had I not looked for deeper meanings, and symbolism.  I may read it again, at my leisure one day.

  Bellamarie

JoanR, as you say, definitely not “chick lit.”  I’m so glad to hear that some husbands read it also, and would like to know opinions also.
 
JoanP, if you aren’t the keeper of fascinating secrets.      It wasn’t until just now, reading the quotes in your post and seeing Jean’s “Dorsey,”  that “Darcy” came into mind.  And I certainly didn’t associate Juliet Ashton’s initials with those of Jane Austen.  Barrows and Shaffer were just full of surprises.

I’m really looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts about the ending anecdotes.  Did Oscar Wilde really have all those initials?

[bellamarie]

pedln,

Bellamarie, although my comments were directed to all, I wasn’t confusing you with anyone.

Forgive me, if it seemed you were directing your post, with my name in front of it, to me. 

pedln,

Bellamarie, I think one can do what one want s with the symbolism and deeper meanings, especially with a book like this, where there is so much to engage the reader.  It’s there, if you want it, but the book is still a delight without digging deeper. 

It seems you have taken offense to my post, for no reason I can understand.  I was only responding to maryz's post, thinking that I too may enjoy it at my leisure without the digging deep and symbolism.  It does not indicate, I did not enjoy the discussion with the book club.  I have read many reviews at Amazon.com, and they are all pretty much in sync, with all that we have come away with.  As moderator, I hope you do not feel because they are not all positive it reflects you. Those of us who chose to do the digging, I am certain are thrilled with all we found. 

JoanP, Yes, I did make the comparison to J.A. (Juliet Ashton) and Jane Austen, and Darcy and Dawsey.  Mary Ann did a fine job, including all her favorites with her characters.  The research had to take hours upon hours, as she confirmed:

"Unfortunately, books don't spring fully formed from their author's foreheads.  This one required years of research and writing.... "           Mary Ann Shaffer

Gumtree, I saw on the news where more fires have begun this morning, but seem to be contained.  My prayers are with you and your fellow Austrailans.

[mabel1015j]

I think authors often have trouble ending their books. They sometimes just "end" it, or write what's predictable - as in Guernsey IMO. Maybe they don't want to leave their characters, or maybe they want to write more, but it would make the book too long. Or sometimes it may just be that they've run out of story and the characters no longer have anything interesting to do or say. ..........................jean

[bellamarie]

Jean,  I agree with you.  I also wondered, if it's possible, Marry Ann's sickness caused a more rapid ending, explaining the disarray, I felt, for me, was in those last pages.  As I have been thinking, the ending almost reminded me of Lady Susan, by Jane Austen.  Now, there's a thought to ponder.

[BarbStAubrey]

Some of my summery thoughts – also my satisfaction with the denouement.

So many unrelated thoughts crowded my mind I had to take a deep breath and start with the Title – according to the title this is really a book about a literary and food society located on the island of Guernsey – further – it is a literary society that was spontaneously created by a visitor from Britain against a backdrop of occupation during a war. The book uses a devise of letters and telegrams exchanged between the characters allowing them to each speak in the first person.

That much alone reminded me of us – who was the first that established Books and Lit. on SeniorNet -  it had to take at least two to start that conversation – I remember only entering a few posts in “Snow Falling on Cedars” – but I thought the first was “Stones from the River” – I remember being shy and not sure enough of how to analyze a story when “Jude The Obscure” was discussed and so I lurked – this is when Roslyn Stempel and LJ Klein were with us holding forth in their brilliance – there was you Joan and Ginny and Pat West and Larry Hanna as well as a few others -  I was in awe –

And then - y’all crashed in my opinion learned in the eighth grade – the next book chosen was Dickens’s “Hard Times” – Dickens no less – I could hear Sister Mary Imelda – Dickens was a trash novelist whose work appeared as serials in magazines. Carrying on with her judgmental attitude I was sure Books & Lit  was not where I should be - it was going by way of the old magazine “True Confessions” – then Ginny started “Queen Lucia” and I was hooked  with “Sir Gawain…” following “Hard Times,” allowing me to feel redeemed as I joined the ranks of Roslyn Stempel and others.

But I still wonder who were the first and how did they announce to the world what they were attempting – I thought there was a group on AOL that started earlier and who later joined us – I remember Seniornet just before the Thanksgiving of 1997 when there was a mock dinner being planned and everyone shared the dish they were bringing – and so we also had an interest in food.

Over the years, like the characters in this book we have bolstered each other, had occasions to meet each other, sent gifts and notes when a regular was ill, congratulations with the birth of each grandchild followed by photos for us all to gush over, even a marriage partner was found through Books and Lit., we offered solace and created memorial pages as some of us passed away, I still have emails saved from some of our deceased bookies.

And so our conception was not with a backdrop of war but with a backdrop of the newest technology that allowed us to find folks all over the world with a like interest in discussing book. As the Technology grew so did our ability to share background information and photos that enlarged our enjoyment of the story. We even had a discussion with an author who joined us from Italy – remember Renato’s Luck, also, you Joan and Ginny sharing so many photos from your travels that furthered the understanding of many books.

I started to ransack my brain for other books written as letters - I remembered – there was a series of letters in a PBS special from a women in Maine and a gentleman in London discussing gardening called “The 3000-Mile Garden” – I found the book and ordered a  used copy for $1.80 + shipping.

The other aspect of this book that reminds me of so many British writers –like dropping gumdrops in a theatre they use phrases, titles and authors as metaphors to further the story – Reading “The Guernsey Literary…” reminded me I never did finish Byatt’s “Possession” with all the titles and authors packed into that story –I finally broke down and purchased a guide– I am concerned the guide which has not arrived yet, may not give me what I want which is a synopsis of all those mentioned books and authors.

Whoops got carried away – my thoughts on your question Joan after dinner.

[JoanP]

Wow, Barbara - that was a trip down memory lane!  Yes, I thought of us, our SN bookclub in its infancy too!  The first discussion was Ginny's - Snow Falling on Cedars   in 1996...followed by the Odyssey.  You have a great memory - I'm just wondering how you could have forgotten James Joyce's Portrait of an Artist.  I though both of us were going to lose it over that one.  And to think that we were considering to do his Ulysses after that!    

It is late here in the east.  I need to go downstairs and get my book to reread the ending.  Will do that in the morning, but I will say tht  I think we need to look closer at Isola's "Private Detection" notes again ...before we begin to consider them as Jane Austen's Lady Susan cop-out.  Did the authors choose to end the book with these  Isola's notes?  Did they have anything at all to do with the story?  Could they have been included in letter-form?  (Only if Isola had written them to herself - which is what she did, more or less.)

I think that we need to pursue Oscar Wilde's  letters to Isola's grandmother too.  Taken in context, they mean something , I know they do... I think we owe the authors a second look.

A larger question perhaps,  is when and why did they decide to shift the focus from Juliet to Isola?     Jean, do you believe they inserted all the Isola episodes because they didn't know how to end the Juliet-Dawsey  story - or the book?

 We need to talk, but my pillow looks mighty tempting.  Night all! See you in the morning.

[JudeS]

Re Isola:  She was one of my favorites from the time her parrot bit off the head of the cuckoo (he of the clock).
   Isola is like the court jester seeing things others don't see by means unlike those others use..  All like her but only Sidney truly appreciates her. 
He sent her the Calypers so she could continue investigating in her very humorous way.  By bringing in the story of Oscar Wildes letters we have a literary reference to a great writer ,humorists and teller of tales, writer of plays and spinner of fairy tales. He is one of the few authors I loved as a child(fairy tales), adolescent (poetry) and adult(plays).

Possibly no one else will agree with me but when all is said and done about this book Isola is the most original character of all   and perhaps the author loved her more and more as she continued the story. Thus the part she plays grows and grows. Especially towards the end.

Also,like Sidney, Wilde was gay and suffered mightily for it.

Jude

[Gumtree]

Off Topic:
Bellamarie  Thanks for your concern. The bushfire situation is still dangerous - yesterday 5 firefighters were injured and required hospitalisation, another house was destroyed and of course there are countless cases minor burns and injuries let alone the effects of trauma. Even though the fire threat has eased somewhat conditions are expected to worsen during the week with Friday tipped to have high temperatures and strong winds - ideal for bushfire, so Victoria is bracing itself for another onslaught.

[bellamarie]

Oh Gumtree, I am very sorry to hear, there is still danger.  My prayers are with you.

[JoanP]

Edit - Gum, I just now see your post. The situation is so unbelievable!  Is there a forecast for rain in the near future?  Please stay close, we are all so concerned for you and your land!

Good morning, jude - Thank you for your comments on Isola's character -

   Isola is like the court jester seeing things others don't see by means unlike those others use..  All like her but only Sidney truly appreciates her.  

 I did not know Oscar Wilde's fairy tales as a child. JoanR - after reading your post, I did read his Happy Prince...and recognized echos of the story in GLPPPS.  It is such a sad tale.   What other children's tales did he write?  Did they involve cats, do you suppose?

Babi described the scene where Sir William Otis so reverently examined Granny Pheen's letters - and as he did, I felt that although this was fiction, that the authors had done enough research that there could be an element of truth here - and that with a little stretch of imagination, Oscar Wilde could have sent such letters to this little girl.  Do you remember why he had written them?

 What do you think of Jude's suggestion as to why the story seems to shift its focus to Isola at the end?

Possibly no one else will agree with me but when all is said and done about this book Isola is the most original character of all   and perhaps the author loved her more and more as she continued the story. Thus the part she plays grows and grows. Especially towards the end.

[Gumtree]

I'm finding it hard to get back into the discussion

I really was surprised that  Annie Barrows wrote that Dawsey's name is related to Mr. D'Arcy's and Juliet's initials aren't JA by accident - well I had twigged the JA easily enough but the Dawsey/D'arcy had me foxed until I read Jean's post that pointed out that depending on your accent the two words sound alike. In the Aussie accent they certainly don't sound alike! Rather something like this..

D'Ar -as in Star - cy as in see
Daw- as in saw-  sey as in zee

I think the Oscar Wilde diversion was a trifle too contrived and was left until too late in the book. It appeared to me to be simply showing off the author's knowledge - perhaps too much of a good thing...The other literary figures were mentioned more as a means of developing the characters and providing the reader with more understanding of their thought processes.

I need to reread the Wilde section and Isola's Detection notes-

JudeS sees Isola as the most original character of all - I agree though I don't really see her as the court jester - sometimes she is the devil's advocate - sometimes the odd man out. Either way she knows what she thinks and has emotions that run deep - as when on occasion she must disappear for a while to deal with events.

[Gumtree]

PedlnOscar Wilde really did have all those initials - I can't remember if it was mentioned in the book but his name was :
Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde.

When I was reading a biography of him I became fascinated with his family - his father was an eye and ear specialist as well as being a noted Irish antiquarian whose archaeological work and writings still endure. Then his mother the Lady Jane Francesca was a poet and controversial journalist (one of her  articles once had an issue suppressed). She wrote under the name of 'Speranza' and became a famous socialite and 'hostess' of a salon in London....a little like George Eliot perhaps...

Another piece of Wilde trivia was this which I found in a genealogical journal years ago:

A Wild One

London, St Pancras Parish Register
1894, William Euston - child found in a box in a railway carriage at Euston Station
Baptised July 14th, 1894[/i][/b]

So Wilde can't be accused of being too far fetched in The Importance of Being Earnest. I'm not sure when he wrote that....

[Gumtree]

JoanP and Bellamarie I just saw your posts...thanks for your good wishes. Widespread rain is something we pray for - only that will put the fires out and reduce the risk of further outbreaks but there is none in sight for the immediate future. Would you believe that one fire started yesterday when a thresher sparked - as simple as that - and the fire was out of control in minutes. The current threat is very close to the outskirts of Melbourne.

[Babi]

What excitement!  Can you imagine having letters written to your Granny from a remarkably imaginative and kind gentleman, and it appears he was Oscar Wilde?  I never knew his full name was Oscar Fingal O’Flahertie Wills Wilde?  I can only suppose his mother felt he would be her only child, and piled every traditional family name on him!

Isola...court jester, devil's advocate, odd man out. Or perhaps simply a 'oner', a unique, strong and highly individual personality.  I did find the shift in the story to Isola's notes to be awkward.  JEAN's suggestion, that Mary Ann's failing health is responsible, makes sense.  She may have been looking for a shortcut to bringing out some things she didn't have time to develop fully.

   Aha! From Juliet's letter to Sophie,  Kit does not like Billie Bee.  Astute child!  Juliet also writes to Sophie about wanting to keep Kit in her life, and her plans to see if some kind of guardianship or adoption can be managed.  And she feels it would be wrong to take Kit away from the freedom of the Island and from the friends who have raised her.  I like the direction this is going.

Thank goodness!  Juliet writes to Sidney about Billie Bee and the letters while the woman is still on the island.  I figured that news would bring a telegram back in a hurry!  Plot foiled!  Hurray!  Bless Isola.  She and Kit, with the letter safe, sitting on Billie Bee’s suitcase while Billie Bee shrieks and squalls from the smokehouse.....what an image!

[pedln]

Just when you think you have almost finished with a book and are reaching its conclusion, you find an entirely new path to wander.  Not that Isola is new, but her means of providing information, the notes, is.  And, she is, briefly, a focus point, away from Juliet, Kit, and Elizabeth.  Jude is certainly right when she says 

Thus the part she plays grows and grows. Especially towards the end.

 I don’t know if this means the authors loved her more, but knowing now that they left nothing to chance, I’m sure that the increased part she plays is there for a reason.

As for the letters to Granny Pheen, it’s entirely possible.  Wilde wrote lots of letters which have been intently studied by scholars.  (See link and note below)  I don’t know what kind of man he was – did he try to soothe Granny Pheen’s loss of her pet cat because he was a kind man who liked children or was it merely an amusement for him. (I prefer the first.)  But, he wrote lots of letters and he was on Guernsey during that time period.

After learning about J.A. and Dawsey/Darcy I think the waters of Barrows/Shaffer flow deep.

From the New York Times (and also similar in many other papers) – Dec. 2008

Lost volume found

A volume of Wilde letters not seen for over 50 years has been donated to NY's Morgan Library.

“It was one of those happy surprises,” Ms. Nelson said. “It was last seen in a 1953 London sale catalog.”

Edit -- Babi and Gumtree -- I see you as I'm posting.  That's quite a full name -- OFO'FW. I want to know more about this man.  Good point, Babi about Kit not liking Billie-Bee.  Still wonder why she's in the book at all.

[bellamarie]

Babi,  I actually was the one who mentioned, possibly Mary Ann's sickness may have caused the ending to come sooner, then she anticipated.  I just feel the ending was not in sync with the story.  For me... as soon as Juliet arrived in Guernsey, its like the story took a rather hurried turn, and things got so odd.  Your words have me thinking,

She may have been looking for a shortcut to bringing out some things she didn't have time to develop fully.

JoanP, 

I think we need to look closer at Isola's "Private Detection" notes again ...before we begin to consider them as Jane Austen's Lady Susan cop-out.

"cop-out" now that's interesting?  I'm not sure I would use those words for Jane Austen's Lady Susan's ending, and certainly not Mary Ann's Guernsey.

In Lady Susan, one of the love interests was: Mr. Fitzwilliam Darcy a fictional character and one of two protagonists in Jane Austen's novel Pride and Prejudice. I found this interesting:

Jane Austen
Major works Sense and Sensibility (1811) · Pride and Prejudice (1813) · Mansfield Park (1814) · Emma (1815) · Northanger Abbey (1817) · Persuasion (1817)
 
Minor works Lady Susan · Sanditon (unfinished) · The Watsons (unfinished)
 
Juvenilia Love and Freindship · The Beautifull Cassandra · The History of England
 
Characters Fitzwilliam Darcy · Elizabeth Bennet · Elinor Dashwood · Anne Elliot
__________________________

The way Jane Austen ended Lady Susan, and Mary Ann ended Guernsey, left me with the same feeling, and the word "unfinished", is a perfect word, to describe how I felt.   

I have written to Annie, with some questions, and hope she can clear up a few things, that have troubled me with the ending. Was it PatH, who was going to supply us with some answers she was posing to Annie, and was waiting til the end so as not to spoil anything?