Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

[elizabeth84]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim by Rudyard Kipling You may have read "Kim" as a young adult, but it's a whole different book for grown-ups.  Join us on January 1 to find out why "Kim" has been beloved by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE January 1-8:     Chapters 1-4 January 9-15:    Chapters  5-8 January 16-22:  Chapters 9-12 January 23-29:  Chapters 13-15 January 30-31:  Overview

DIscussion Leaders:  
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg  ~  The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 2 1.  "It is no small thing to make a child" says the lama. In this section of the book, many people are struggling for control of Kim's future development. Looking at each one in turn, what is each trying to do? What would be the result if they have their way? Do you think any of them will get their way? Mr. Bennett Father Victor The lama Mahbub Ali Creighton Kim 2.  In these chapters, Kim’s life changes dramatically.  Does Kim also change? If so, how?  What do you think of this turn of events? 3.  In this section, Kipling portrays Englishmen (and boys) as well as Indians. What do you think of that portrayal?  What attitudes do they show? 4.  When Mahbub Ali and Kim meet Creighton, Ali makes fun of Kim’s coming school experience and past message-carrying.  What is he really doing here? 5.  When Kim arrives at St. Xavier’s School, he is met by the lama.  What is the nature of the emotional conflict the lama is suffering here?

Thank you Joan for that website.  It was lovely to hear the lama's mantra after all these years of reading about it.  And that was a fine story about the old hermit who walked on water--very amusing and instructive.

[Babi]

 Drat, I just lost a post.  AND, my seriously arthritic finger feels as though I've broken it. I think I'll try later to re-write that post.  It was
brilliant, of course.    I'll try to remember it.

[PatH]

Well, we're off to a roaring start on the new section.

PatH - I've begun Chapter VI.  I puzzled over the choice of the verse that preceded Chatper V...the one that spoke of the return of the Prodigal.  Do you have any idea to whom this refers?  Who do you see as the prodigal in this chapter

That is the first verse of a humorous poem by Kipling retelling the Biblical story with a twist.  Here's the whole thing:

http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/1237/

Kim is definitely the Prodigal Son here.  He's returned to his "family"--his father's regiment--and he doesn't care much for it.

[PatH]

Babi, why is it always the most brilliant posts that get lost?

[PatH]

JoanP, thanks for posting that link about om mane padme hum.  It gives a little of the feel of Buddhism, which is important to the story, since it's central to almost everything the lama does.

Although only a very small fraction of Indians are Buddhists, Buddha was born and lived there, and all the important religious sites connected with his life are there.  The lama hopes to visit them in the course of his search for the River.

Elizabeth, sorry I had to put the heading in your post.

[JoanK]

I have read a translation of the mantra as "the jewel at the heart of the lotus". But clearly, according to Joan's site, that is inadequate.The word OHM itself is holy in buddhism and is supposed to represent everything in the universe. It is often used as a mantra by itself.

[JoanK]

Here are Tibetans spinning the prayer whells:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IU69BB3vj4&feature=related

[mrssherlock]

Interesting variety in the attention the worshipers pay to their devotions..

[mrssherlock]

1.   This section is very adventuresome.  Kim sees happiness is his travels on the Grand Trunk.  Bennett sees Kim as needing to whipped into shape, literally.  Father Victor, the very antithesis of the protestant Mason Kipling, thinks with his heart and sees in Kim great promse.  Mahbub is the most aware of the true Kim but has his own expectations and agenda for Kim.  Creighton sees Kim as a tool which kismet has provided for his use.  To the lama Kim is like a miracle, dropping into hislife to share his pilgrammage until he sees that that very same pilgrammage has brought Kim to the fulfillment of O'Hara's prophecy.

2.  Kim is intelligent and clever.  He sees opportunities and cashes in on them but he hoard his treasure until he can get the best deal for it.  He is just beginning to grow into his fully realized self and he sees the goal thought not yet clearly; he commits himself to preparation for its fullfilment.

3.  The contrast between the rigidity of thoughtf and lack of imagination of the English, both older and younger, anal and unswervingly linear versus the capricious lIndians depending on happenstance to lead them.

[PatH]

Father Victor, the very antithesis of the protestant Mason Kipling, thinks with his heart and sees in Kim great promise.

That's an interesting point, Jackie.  Kipling wanted the contrast between the two priests, but good and bad, understanding and oblivious priests occur in all religions, yet Kipling chooses the Catholic to be the compassionate, caring one.

[JoanP]

JoanK - thanks so much for the prayer wheel - nothing like I pictured it.  Loved seeing  the pedestrians give it a spin as they walked by.  Can anyone spin?

At this point I feel that all three men - the Lama, Mahbub and Father Victor are all bemused by Kim.  Father Victor asks if there are more like him or if Kim is a "lucus naturae" - "a whim or a freak of nature."  They really don't seem to want to control him, change him - except to provide more opportunity for him. He is so bright, and quick, he deserves more.  Never mind that Kim really doesn't want more, is perfectly happy to be on the Road with the Lama. 

As I write that, I'm reminded of Kim's Search - the Red Bull on the green field - is supposed to help him, right?  This is the legacy left to him by his father.   These men all  seem to be on Kim's side. Col.Creighton, I'm not so sure what motivates his interest in  Kim.  As a case study?

That was some parting scene between Kim and his Lama at the St. Xavier gates.  Is the Lama telling Kim that he does not love him - but is interested in his education?  Where do you think he is getting the money to pay for Kim's education?

Jackie, I don't thnk anyone is going to "control"  Kim, do you?  I think he will consider everything that  he's learning - and make his own choices when all is said and done.

Ella  - the Buddhists have their temples, right?

[elizabeth84]

Speaking of the spinning prayers I believe tomorrow I will write a short prayer and slip the paper into my lettuce spinner, and then I will be multi- tasking as I prepare my salad.

[JoanP]

 

[Babi]

 Thanks for finding the full Kipling poem, PatH. The man had a point.
There are families that cause one to think that caring for hogs would
be more pleasant.
 
It is a mystery, isn't it, how those brilliant posts get lost?  And
of course the re-write is never quite as good. Part of that post had
to do with the meditation mantra, I recall.  The syllables themselves
have a resonance, much like humming, that tends to calm and soothe the
mind. Very useful when one wished to meditate.

  Thanks for that picture, JOAN. Certainly looks like an easy way to get
your prayers done!

  ELIZABETH!   

 I was startled to consider the peril of the spy: “Then, if he spits, or sneezes, or sits down other than as the people do whom he watches, he may be slain.”    It never struck me before how such tiny things could betray one as not a native. Kim could have had a brilliant career as
an actor, and a much safer one.  Not nearly as exciting, tho'.

[PatH]

Kim is a natural at this, Babi.  Remember in chapter 3 when Kim is trying to impress the old soldier that he really does know there is going to be a war, he mimics all the Commander in Chief's gestures, even though he's only seen the man once.

Elizabeth, now I'll think of you every time I see a salad spinner!

[JoanK]

Good for you, Elizabeth. Here is an even more efficient way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5on-fP28sY&feature=related

[JoanK]

JoanP: "Is the Lama telling Kim that he does not love him - but is interested in his education?" What do the rest of you think?

And why are Mahbub Ali and Colonel Creighton so interested in Kim?

[Frybabe]

Oh, I think the Lama cares very much for Kim. He rationalizes his disappointment that Kim is not staying with him. He is trying to overcome this attachment by citing his religious beliefs and quest. So he strives to collect merit by paying Kim's way through school, and to assuage Kim's grief at being separated claims he is at fault for becoming attached against his religious goals. I have to double check, but isn't his goal to become detached from worldly concerns, possessions and desires, etc.?

[mrssherlock]

Fry:  That's how I read it, too.

[JoanP]

Where do you think the Lama might be getting the 300 rupees to pay for Kim's education?  Do you suspect an alliance - perhaps with Mahbub?  Would either of these two men be willing to pay for Kim's Catholic education?

[elizabeth84]

Joan K, that's a pretty outrageous prayer wheel; now every time I spin the lettuce I will remember that it is wrong to kill...without respect.

[Ella Gibbons]

I think most of the men Kim has met in these chapters are amazed, amused and want in some way to help the boy.  Do you feel that any of them want to use or abuse the boy?  

The lama certainly loves Kim and the money he gives for his education at Xavier comes from his Tibetan "order" - I cannot spell it without getting the book.  

Creighton, the Colonel, is amused and wants to see the boy get an education, as does the priest.

I'm not sure yet about the horse trader, who is looking out for No.1

Isn't Kim an amazing kid.  Three months in the school, just having learned to read and write (what could he have learned in that short of time?) and he escapes back into his beloved streets and alleyways to be as one with the natives.  Even hires a girl (a prostitute) to dye his skin and hair and get him appropriate clothing on the pretense of a date.

The school was a good influence on Kim, don't you think?  He seemed to thrive there and the other students were of a nature that corresponded with his own.   However, Kim could not forget the native Indian, it was in his soul to be a native, not a Sahib.

Should Kim be aware of any of the men he has met?  

[Ella Gibbons]

Gorgeous pictures of Lucknow, India where Kim's school was located:

http://www.shunya.net/Pictures/NorthIndia/Lucknow/Lucknow.htm

"They 'll make a man o' you, O'Hara, at St. Xavier's- a white man" - Father Victor said.

"But I am to pray to Babi Miriam (the Virgin Mary) and I am a Sahib" 

No, I am Kim.  This is the great world, and I am only Kim.  Who is Kim?"

[PatH]

What adventures indeed, Ella.  Did you notice Kipling's attitudes creeping in here?  "There were boys of fifteen who had spent a day and a half on an islet in the middle of a flooded river, taking charge, as by right, of a camp of frantic pilgrims returning from a shrine...."  The Sahib always takes the lead.  Later,  "One must never forget that one is a Sahib, and that some day, when examinations are passed, one will command natives."  I don't think Kim buys this.  He keeps quiet about his own adventures and bides his time.

Kipling made up St. Xavier's, but it's thought to be based on La Martiniere:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Martiniere_Lucknow

 What do you think about "...at St. Xavier's they know the first rush of minds developed by sun and surroundings, as they know the half-collapse that sets in at twenty-two or twenty-three."?  I suspect that's educational nonsense.

[PatH]

Ella, you were posting while I was writing.  Great pictures--thanks.  Kipling obviously loved Lucknow, and you can see why.

"No, I am Kim.  This is the great world, and I am only Kim.  Who is Kim?"

I'm glad you noticed that.  I think it's important.

[PatH]

Where do you think the Lama might be getting the 300 rupees to pay for Kim's education?  Do you suspect an alliance - perhaps with Mahbub?  Would either of these two men be willing to pay for Kim's Catholic education?

Good question, JoanP.  We aren't told where the lama got the money (someone tell me if I missed it) but I agree with Ella that it was probably from the monastery.  It couldn't have been any sort of alliance.  Almost the second the lama knew of the totally unexpected fact that Kim was going to be taken away and educated, he knew exactly what he was going to do.

The Lama: "Ask them for how much money do they give a wise and suitable teaching?"

Through Kim's translating, he learns details.

Kim, translating: "He says: 'Write that name and the money upon a paper and give it to him.'  And he says you must write your name below, because he is going to write a letter in some days to you...."

He already knew what he was going to do.

[JoanK]

Notice, in spite of the "Catholic education", Catholicism hasn't seemed to have rubbed off on him at all. He's probably seen so many different gods already, one more doesn't make much impression.

[mrssherlock]

When I read this years ago I little knew that the word "madrassa" (accepted spelling today) would become so familiar to me. 

[PatH]

When I read this years ago I little knew that the word "madrassa" (accepted spelling today) would become so familiar to me. 

I didn't even know the word before.  A lot of things are more familiar to me this time around.

[Babi]

 I went looking for pictures of beautiful Lucknow, too, ELLA, but I like
yours better. Such beautiful, graceful architecture.

  I read Laurie King's book, "The Game", in which Holmes and Russell
meet Kim 25 years later. I thought it appropriate that Kim, in her book,
had become a Buddhist, ..though still involved in 'the game', and used
his beads as faithfully as his beloved Lama.

Back to Kipling, when Kim is asked, “And who are thy people”,  he replies, “This great and beautiful land.”  He has as a tie, a bond, here, that I think his parent country can never replace.  And he has grown up so very fast as  a street child.  Now, in his teens, he says “Every month I become a year more old.” It becomes plausible that  a boy this young could do what Kim does.

[mrssherlock]

kipling keeps his focus in Kim's coming of age but we know that Kim had to avoid the lures of human predators who harvest street kids.  Like any such kid anywhere, Kim may be young in years but wise in the ways of his world.  His life now exposes hum to realms undreamed of and he sets out to master the new as he did the old.  His struggle is to maintain his core in spite of the inducements of the other life such as those awarded for passing examinations. Complicating factors are his need for respect and recognition of his talents and love learned from the lama who is depending on Kim to guide him to his redemption from sin, being washed in his river.

[PatH]

I like your analysis, Jackie, especially "His struggle is to maintain his core".

[JoanP]

AT first I thought Kim was too good, too smart, too savvy to be true.  But  now I see him admitting to mistakes and  learning from them.  Don't you wonder what sort of a person he will grow up to be?  He seems to be struggling to hold on to his old self - the one he created.  He will truly be a self-made man - with some help from the many people he befriends along the way.  Are we all like that to some extent?  Isn't that how we came to be who we are today?

Kim doesn't seem to want to be anything more than what he was - wants to get school days  over with and get back to his old life.  But he can't go back, can he? -

I can't see the lama's monastery paying for the boy's education - that's a lot of money.  But it's the only explanation we have right now. The lama does want him to be educated.  He is the only one who has the motive to pay for an education for him.

At first I didn't see Mahbub Ali's interest in Kim - but as the two spend time together on the Road  during Kim's spring break - I think he really does care for the boy.  Do you think I'm being naive?  Does M. really have Kim's interest at heart?

I looked up two words that had me puzzled -

Sahib - a title of respect for a white European in India - does Sahib refer to all white men or just educated ones?

A fakir - literally ‘one who is in need’, whether physical or spiritual, the term has come to denote need of and dependence on God, and so is used for a religious mendicant. It originally referred to a Muslim religious mendicant, but in India is now a general term for an ascetic (see asceticism).  I got the impression that Kipling uses fakir in a more derrogatory manner.

Kim does not want to be a Sahib, so he says.  He claims that all he wants to do is join his lama on the Road.  Does he aspire then to be a fakir?

[mrssherlock]

I think Kim won't let himself be labelled by anyone, he will always march to his own drummer.  It may suit him to pretend.  He has found that accompanying the lama allows him to recede into the background, all the attention is on the holy man, and gives him freedom to pursue his own ends.  He does genuinely care for the lama, and for Mahbub, who likewise cares for him and has protected him in ways Kim is unaware of through his network of contacts.  I'm sure that Kipling wrote this for boys but it is a siren's song to anyone who has few choices in life.

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANP asks -  "Are we all like that to some extent?  Isn't that how we came to be who we are today?"

I see a few ways that apply to most of us in Kim's personality.  Particularly when he asks WHO AM I?  Don't we all ask that at times?  WHAT AM I TO DO WITH THE LIFE GIVEN ME?  (perhaps this is a personal question?)

The question of Kim changing in these chapters is an interesting one and I haven't an answer to that one.  I must read more in the book.

JACKIE, I would love to hear more about this book being a "siren's song to anyone who has few choices in life."  What do you mean?

[mrssherlock]

Ella:  I mean persons who have little choice in where they live, for instance, due to limited income,  Or who are stuck, in dead end jobs.  Or parents whose adult children have moved back because their unemployment has ended.  Kim has been called a Peter Pan, the epitome of carefree youth.

[JudeS]

Pat
I read the whole article on the school at Lucknow that you referenced for us.
The more I read the more I thought of the Harry Potter series and his school.  There are so many similarities between Harry's  school "Hogwarts' and the school described in the article.  Perhaps J.K.Rowling also was influenced by Kim. Or perhaps all British schools are like this and so I drew this parallel.

Again I will say that the only person who really cares about Kim, for his own sake, is the Lama.  Mr Creighton wants to use him as a surveyor,  MahbubAli wants Kim to spy for him, the priests want another convert to their religion. The Lama has somehow gotten the funds to pay for Kim's education so that Kim can become who Kim will be. Their relationship is mutual since Kim has no parents and the Lama no children.  The story seems to be based on their relationship and what it will eventually mean to each of them.  I have stopped at the end of chapter 8 but am having a hard time not reading further.

[salan]

I will be visiting my daughter and her family for the next week.  I'm not sure if I will get a chance to check in, but I am taking Kim with me.  If you don't hear from me; I will return in a week.
Sally

[Babi]

 Mahbub and Creighton do want to use Kim; his talents are exceptional
for their needs. Nevertheless, they do like the boy and care about him,
in my opinion. I believe they would do all they could to protect him for
his own sake, and not just for what he can do.

 I was surprised to find this evidence of  prejudice in Kim.  He is a ‘Friend to all the world”, but  he describes  his half-caste fellow students as   “Their eyes are blue and their nails are blackened with low-caste blood, many of them. Sons of  metheranees--brothers-in-law to the bhungi (sweeper). I find this hard to understand since Kim usually travels disguised as a low-caste Hindu boy. (I couldn't find a translation
of the word 'metheranees'.)

[PatH]

Sally--have a good time, and we'll welcome you back.  We have 2 more days on this section, so we'll still be on chapters 9-12 when you get back.

Babi, my book translates mehteranees as: princesses, an ironic courtesy title for women cleaners.