Author Topic: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online  (Read 121302 times)

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2011, 12:19:16 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.


June Bookclub Online  Everyone is welcome!

Old Filth
 by Jane Gardam
"The opening pages of the book find Filth (Sir Edward Feathers), a retired but still unassailable old barrister whose reputation has grown to such mythic proportions that it obstructs the hard truths of a man so damaged by his past that he has found himself forever unable to love.
It's only as Filth toddles gracefully into old age that he can begin to rediscover the parts of himself that he has locked away and come to terms with the dark secrets that made him the man he became."   (Reviewed by Maggie O'Farrell)

The novelist,  Jane Gardam was born  in Coatham, North Yorkshire on July  11. 1928. Her title character's late-in-life questions about whether his life has had meaning are especially moving—and universal, given this author's own experience and age.
“Both witty and poignant, this work is more than a character study; through her protagonist, Gardam offers a view of the last days of empire as seen from post-9/11 Britain.  Borrowing from biography and history, Gardam has written a literary masterpiece that retraces much of of the 20th century's torrid and momentous history.”
  Library Journal  
click on map twice to enlarge

Discussion Schedule for the coming week:


- June 6 - June 13 ~ Inner Temple; Wales; The Donheads; The Outfit; Tulips; The Ferment; The Donheads; School; p.49-128 (Up to  The Time of Frenzy)

- June 14 - 19  The Time of Frenzy; Wandsworth; A Light House  129-192



Some Topics for Consideration
June 6 - 13

1.Did you feel you were looking at a photograph when introduced to the children who had been living in the Didds'  house?   Did their appearance in this picture suggest anything to you?

2.   Have you changed your mind about Betty and Edward's relationship?   Why did you think Betty may have buried the expensive pearls with the tulip bulbs?  

3. Does Pat Ingoldby's frequent black moods seem to affect his relationship with his friend, "Fevvers"?  What did you think of his family?
What became of their close friendship?
 
4. Sir plays a crucial role, no?  Were you surprised that both of the boys' fathers had been at this school with Sir?  Or that  both fathers had fought together in the Great War? Is that why Sir puts the two boys together?  Do you have more of an understanding of Eddie's father now?

5. Wasn't that a magnificent, convincing letter Eddie wrote to his father?  Why is he "red with rage" as he writes it? Do you think the ps  he added to the letter has really "spoiled" his case?

6. Babs is back!     Do we learn more of the Ma Didd's affair, "the affair that was, and still was - his  closed locked box"?

7.  What new mystery does Isobel Ingoldby's letter of condolence raise?  How did Eddie react to her letter?  

 


Related Links:
 UK Legal System  (rosemarykaye);
 The British Empire;
 A Brief Biography of Rudyard Kipling;
 Kipling's "Baa Baa Black Sheep";


Discussion Leaders:   Traude  & Joan P

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2011, 12:49:57 PM »
I am amazed at our author's ability to flip back and forth in time and keep us guessing.  For example, this letter from Isobel is strange, she says that Betty's obituary is in the NYTimes!  "She was a surpriser"  - What is that all about?  The NYTimes?
 
This flexibility in time makes it difficult to discuss, doesn't it?  We are all remarking about different portions and incidents in the book.

At times, I think the author is writing for the reader, telling us in one paragraph how office procedure has changed from the Remington typewriters to emails and the Web.  Occasionaly she will comment as if she was talking to us, for example when the boys ran out of the dorm thinking they were being invaded and she says it twice (dressing gowns) as if she is startled by that also.

Betty burying her pearls, burying her love at the same time.  A mystery!

JOANP, I was as startled at you by Filth eating her birthday cake after the funeral.  Seems so cold and Gardam leaves us with that impression often, but then Isobel in her letter says:

"I am one of those who know that you were not really cold."  So.......................

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2011, 01:05:55 PM »
My sister from MA is arriving Saturday to visit with me for a couple of weeks or so.  I'm not sure I will have the time to read and post, I see her so seldom that I love to spend the hours together.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2011, 08:13:30 PM »
I'm coming late to the discussion today because our local book group had its summer meeting. All our meetings are special, but the one we have in June is an occasion that includes lunch in our favorite restaurant in Sandwich on Cape Cod, where one of our members lives.  After lunch we repair to her home for dessert and the discussion.
-------
JoanP, I agree, the early chapters of this book care somewhat confusing because the reader is transported from one era and environment to a different one, and unable to alight on any of them for long.  I hadn't realized it when I read the hardcover library book, but it is inescapable now.  Jonathan was the first to point it out, and he is right. He called it 'humpty dumpty', I'd call it patchwork.

Clearly, Jane Gardam has a penchant for mysteries and, in addition to the questions regarding Eddie, in youth and later, more secrets pile up.  To wit, about the "guilty" pearls; the wills; eventual codicils; never finished?; and why they didn't see the solicitor together.

Ella, Isobel, Pat's cousin, lived in Paris when she read Betty's obituary in the NYT there. As for Edward's "coldness", couldn't that have just been an act, in self defense ? To steel himself against further losses, rejections or disappointments?

JoanP,  in the Jane Gardam interview linked in the header, she acknowledges having received hundreds of letters after the publication of O.F.

That makes me want to ask her when she decided to write The Man in the Wooden Hatm clearly a companion piece told from Betty's perspective, and if her impetus came at least in part from her fan letters. If this is an indiscreet question, I'll withdraw it. I don't like putting people on the spot.








serenesheila

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2011, 09:44:40 PM »
I am finally enjoying our book!  There was too much jumping back and forth in time, for me, in the earlier chapters.  I was confused part of the time.

This morning I read a section about Eddie's control of his passion.  This section follows the death of Betty, while planting tulips.  It certainly doesn't surprise me, that control of his emotions was very important to him.  With all of the abandonment he had experienced, control of emotions can be a strong need. 

He and Betty seem to have had a good marital relationship.  However, I was surprised to read that it had been more than 30 years since he had visited her bedroom.  I am looking forward to discovering why they lived that way.  I also am feeling curious about how Babs fits into his life, following Betty's deatrh.

Sheila

Babi

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2011, 08:14:21 AM »
 Betty,in London,  ..”....the bundles with rags and bottles..“ ”Beggars again in
the streets of London, she thought. My world’s over...” 
Again, images of an England
showing signs of poverty and neglect.   As best I can figure,  as this occurs circa 1997,
England’s economy wasn’t all that bad at that time.  The 1980's appear to have been
prosperous. Of course, every city of any size has it's street people, homeless or unable to
settle.  That shouldn't have been so remarkable.
 Thanks again for the local input, ROSEMARY.  It always helps.
  I wonder, when Betty says, "My world's over...",  just which world she is referring to. Donheads, London, or Hong Kong. 
  Her sadness on learning of the death of Terry strengthens our speculations that Betty
and Veneering were...very close.  She still feels his pain at the loss of his son, after all these
years.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2011, 08:51:16 AM »
I am reading this on my IPAD, so the paging is wrong.. So I must be careful. I might be a little ahead or behind.. Pat is dead?? Edward seems to not be able to count of friends. How come the cousins know more than he does.. Is he repressing or does he actually not know.. I wish they would solve the Wales mystery.. Edward loved Betty, but am not quite sure that she loved him.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2011, 09:33:14 AM »
Steph - you seem to be right on point -
This week we're discussing the chapters up to - but not including "Time of Frenzy"...The preceding chapter, "School"  ends with word that Pat is dead.  
Poor Edward.  Right now it appears that there was only one person in his life  Filth had been able to  rely upon was Sir.  Maybe Auntie May too, but she has such a minor role in his life.  Can you think of anyone else?

If you ask me - I think Edward represses everything that he is unable to handle.  I think he suspects that Betty has been up to something, but is so afraid she will leave him (like everyone else has) that he chooses to believe otherwise.  "Filth watches her healthy outdoor face and her eyes that had never caught her out. " So he's watching her, but really doesn't want to know.

Babi - I remember when Betty said her world was over, that someone the death of Terry meant the end of her relationship with Veneering - who is living back in Hong Kong, I gather.  The mystery about all this - what is the connection between Terry and Betty - I mean, between Terry's son and Betty?


JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2011, 09:34:41 AM »
Sheila, I know what you mean about the flipping back and forth in time...
It helped me to consider this Filth's story...to imagine him as this old man, alone - with someone who threatens his well-being, living right next door.  Don't you think that Veneering is the proof that Betty has not been faithful?  Filth doesn't want to face that fact - so he avoids Veneering.  But he is awfully alone...

If you consider the story is Filth's life, then you can consider the story in a linear way, which is easier - except that Filth is having flashbacks in his old age, to some of those other incidents that he has been trying to forget - his father's lack of feeling for him, the horrible occurrence in Wales, the loss of his only friend,  the suspicions about Betty - and now the letter of condolence from Pat's sister.  A new character - to us - but someone who played a role in Filth's past.

Try that - think of an old man, having flashbacks - let me know if it helps you.  I'm hoping that Filth is able to finally confront the ghosts of his past and see them in a different light...

I agree with you completely - "With all of the abandonment he had experienced, control of emotions can be a strong need."  Let's hope that he is finally able to let go of some of that control and see his past life in a different light... if he can put Humpty Dumpty back together again -

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2011, 09:41:42 AM »
Babi - it has just occurred go me that the Empire is crumbling at this time - that London is inundated with people who had been living in the colonies.  There is no work for them - many of them have taken to begging and living in the street.  Does that make sense?

Traude, an interesting question for the author - WHEN did she decide to write The Man in the Wooden Hat.  will get that list up this afternoon...

Have you read  Man in the Wooden Hat?  - have you read any of Gardam's other books?  Is this her style - the flashbacks?  Or something that she employed for Old Filth?
 

ps - Ella, you will be missed.  (Maybe you can peek in when sister takes a nap? ;))


salan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2011, 04:06:48 PM »
Yea!  I'm finally caught up with our book.  I am enjoying this book; although I really don't like books that flash back and forth.  It gets too confusing at times.  I guess it's hard for me to keep up with what is happening when and where!  Joan, it helps me to think of Filth as an old man having flashbacks.  The death of Betty seems to have unleashed the past for him.  I know that after my husband died, I had (and still do) many flashbacks and remembrances.  I will try to keep that in mind as I read on.

I got the impression that Betty was not especially happy in their marriage.  I wonder if she had an affair with Vaneering????
Why were they seeing the lawyer separately about their wills.?  Was it Betty's money?  If so, what will happen to Edward?
Sally

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2011, 04:59:51 PM »
Ella~This flexibility in time makes it difficult to discuss, doesn't it?  We are all remarking about different portions and incidents in the book.

Yes, Ella, I do see this as a bit of a problem and feared this would be the case early on.

Oh my heavens, I have been trying to catch up with this week's assigned chapters, yet I get so confused and frustrated with this jumping around.  The letter from Isobel was cryptic as far as I am concerned, as was the phone call Betty received from Terry Veneering.  Seems our author is like Hansel and Gretal dropping bread crumbs along the path....  I really do NOT like the jumping around with the time frames.  I'm still not sure just what type of relationship Betty and Veneering had.  I want and need more information about the two of them. 
 
Forgive me for lack of participation this week, I have let these chapters frustrate me.  I will go finish the last few pages and return. 

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

winsummm

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #92 on: June 08, 2011, 09:46:07 PM »
confusing here. I think I'll go look for a good mystery. Claire
thimk

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #93 on: June 08, 2011, 10:03:57 PM »
Was it Betty's money?  If so, what will happen to Edward?
Sally
They both had money.  Betty had money of her own, and Edward made a lot in his legal career, and maybe had some from his father too.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #94 on: June 08, 2011, 10:49:44 PM »
JoanP,  
Old Filth was the first book by Gardam I read, and it intrigued me so much that I read the three novels she had published before,
The Flight of the Maidenm 2000; The Green Man, 1998; and Missing the Midnight, 1997 (which gave a hint of the author's affinity for Hong Kong). I also read The People on Privilege Hill, 2007, a short story collection in which Old Filfth appears.
And, yes,  I read The Man in the Wooden Hat, wh ich tells the story of Betty's Marriage to O.F. from her perspective, in chronological order.

I well remember that I was carried away when I first read O.F.,  a virginal hardcover, just arrived at the library. I do not recall that the shifting of scenes bothered me. Now that I'm rereading my own copy (hat I can mark up any which way) it is impossible to ignore.
Even so, it's no reason to give up.

One way to get into the story is to follow O.F.'s story as it emerges, holding the chapters recalling other points in time in a separate corner of our mind. We cannot fully understand Betty and O.F. before or after H.K. until we've seen his path and progress. Everything will fall into place even though the process is a long one, and how could it be otherwise? O.F. led a long life.

We're unsure about the personal dates,  but we do know that the Handover (Gardam's term,  H.K.'s Handover proper term) to China took place in 1997, and we can assume that Betty and O.F. returned BEFORE 1997.  
I for one go on reading along two tracks, so to speak, and am discovering "new" things which I had quite forgotten.

Sally,  glad to see your post.Good for you!
Bellamarie, allow yourself to lay the book aside for a little while to reflect until you feel like picking it up again.

I have often said, and still believe, that even if we do not like a certain book, we can still have a good discussion. To like or dislike a book (or anything else) should not be the only criterion.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2011, 12:19:39 AM »
Okay I hope this is not too lengthy, and you all will bear with me, but maybe this will help me, and others to discuss these chapters.

Wales...Auntie May comes and Edward seems not to know her, "The tragedy was apparent, she thought, as soon as she'd seen Edward's closed face, his frightening dignity.  Babs (frightened) & Claire (affectionate)  New Headmaster "Sir" states, "Nothing unpleasant at my school."   Sir tells Eddie, "We are almost all of the Raj."  Ingoldby is in charge of Edward when he arrives at the school.
We learn Edward gave his mother's box to Ada.

The Donheads...Old Filth and Betty are going to have their wills prepared.  O.F had a slight heart attack several years ago.  Betty leaves him to go to lunch, yet no one is there.  She gets the phone call from Veneering, he asks if she is wearing HIS pearls, he is intimate with her, tells her his son is dead.  Betty thinks, "My world is over like Terry's."

The Outfit...Back at the Prep school, over 4 yrs the stammer is healed.  Ingoldby is Eddie's first friend.  At age 14 both boys move to the Public school in the Midlands.  Mrs. Ingoldby was Eddie's first English love.  16 yrs old now and Hitler has invaded Poland.

Tulips...Betty and O.F. trip to do the wills was for nothing.  Betty was never sure about Filth and love.  "Something blocked him.  Oh faithful yes.  Unswerving unto death.  Never been anyone for Filth but Betty."  "You are not my famous pearls, though he never notices, you are my guilty pearls."  Betty buries the pearls in the tulip hole.

The Ferment...After the funeral---Betty is now dead.  Letter from Isobel, Filth is remembering his days with Sir.  He wrote to his father weekly never got any letters back.  He learns his father numbered each of his letters and kept them.  O.F. remembers Isobel and how she came to his bedroom at school, he tells her "I think you are a bad woman, Get Out." He has always had regrets.

The Donheads...A condolence letter from Isobel, she mentions Betty always wanted children, Isobel reveals she is a lesbian, she loved Eddie.  Traitor!

School...Eddie followed Pat to Childham school 1936.  Boys question Eddie about his father never coming to see him and his closeness with Pat Ingoldby and his family.  Air raids going off, invasions, the boys were given rifles.  False alarm.  Ingoldby got pneumonia.  Mr. Oilseed Eddie's Housemaster accuses him of being gay because of his closeness to Pat.  Eddie goes to the Headmaster with this.  Headmaster mentions David and Jonathon business.  Eddie's father has written the school and wants him to leave after Christmas to got to Malaysia or Singapore to get away from the bombing in England.  Jack Ingoldby's plane reported missing over the Channel, Pat returns home, Jack is dead.  Eddie goes to his aunts, Eddie writes to his father to allow him to go to Oxford rather come home.  At Oxford he thinks he knows the student who helps give him directions to Christ church.  He got accepted into Oxford where his father attended.  Eddie runs into Babs in the coffee shop, she says she heard Eddie had a crack up began to chatter like a monkey, a Welch monkey.  He says he hasn't seen his father in ten yrs, she says she hasn't seen hers for a long time and then mentions all the books his father sent to him and he asks if his father sent then and she says, "You weren't wanting to hear anything good about your father then."  She calls him Teddy, teddy bear.  Babs asks Eddie to come back to her digs and go to bed, "We have before." at Didds.  Eddie declines, she says "We'll never forget each other, Teddy-bear.  Never.  You and I and Claire.  And Cumberledge.  Whatever happens to us.  Never." Eddie leaves for the train.  He has a dream of being tossed high by someone with a brown face.  Eddie sees Pat Ingoldby's obituary.

Certainly there are more things in these chapters, but these are the highlights I personally felt important.  Maybe its just me but I do feel like Jane has given us just pieces of the puzzle and we are still searching for the most important parts in order to complete the full puzzle.  We get innuendos, suppositions, memories, and partial sentences assuming we understand and can fill in the blanks.  So much is fragmented that it leaves me unable to attach to any of these characters.  Is that Jane's intent, to allow the reader to learn the past, present and future of O.F but not allow us to get personally attached to him because he seems unable to have any personal attachments to anyone. 

Okay I will do as straudetwo suggests and lay the book aside for a little while to reflect....the only problem is, so far so much is so mumbled and jumbled it would take awhile to sort it all out, or maybe the next chapters will reveal more, or possibly only confuse me more.  I'm not saying I don't like the book, I do want to know more and I am intrigued to hear Betty's perspective, so it seems I may have to read "The Man In the Wooden Hat", its nice to know its in chronological order.  I'm sure the questions I want answers to are the same as any reader.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2011, 05:59:13 AM »
I dont mind the jumping at all. I like the idea of filling in his life. He has lived such a life of repressioni. I marvel that he can even think of the past.. Not sure he wants to though.
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Babi

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2011, 08:41:22 AM »
The Outfit    Edward and Pat never talked about the past.  That was apparently a help to Eddie; I find it a bit surprising in Pat.     Gardam writes,   “The past, unless very pleasant, is not much discussed among children.”    I suppose that’s true to some extent.  Children live very much in the present.   Mrs. Ingoldby was herself a Raj orphan.  She declares that her
parents did not love her at all and was very grateful when they shipped her off to a ‘marvelous woman’.  Her parents appear to have been something of a disaster.
   She seems happy and cheerful enough, but her son thinks it is all a facade.  Pat is not a
victim of the Raj tradition.  I really don’t know what his problem is.   He apparently is
‘unconcerned about individuals’ and plans to be a historian.  He’s interested in the larger
picture.   Does anyone see anything in this boy’s family background to explain this detachment?

 JOANP, I think Betty was simply relating to Veneering's pain over losing his son. She
obviously cared deeply for Veneering and must have known the boy as well. As for London
being inundated with people with no work, it would depend on exactly what 'this time'
would be.  Reading a bit on the English economy in the late 20th century, employment
varied widely from almost full employment to serious decreases.
  I'm a bit behind, I think.  I need to catch up today.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2011, 10:46:04 AM »
I'm with you, Steph - am now used to the flashbacks.  It seems that the end of one chapter triggers a memory for Filth - and before we know it - he is back in time, remembering something long forgotten.  

Sally - I'm glad it helps  to think of Filth as an old man having flashbacks.  You wrote - "the death of Betty seems to have unleashed the past for him."  He's living alone now, after Betty has gone.  Plenty of time for remembering...nothing but time to dwell on the past.

Bellamarie, you are in the same boat with everyone else - you have summarized the plot so far - as Jane has allowed us to know.  I think she is deliberately keeping us involved - by adding new mystery, just as she provides some answers - in her own good time.  I wouldn't put the book aside for a minute!
Traude, do you hear anyone saying that they do not like this book?  Were you thinking of Winsummm?
Claire - Where have you been?  Was so happy to see you here. Please stay around - just a bit longer? Do you have the book?  It is quite a mystery - multi-mysteries, actually.  

I'm encouraged by what JoanR said last week - "Oddly enough, when I finished, it all fell into place in a linear way."

Back in a few minutes - need slow down and  read your posts more carefully...

Traude, it was interesting to learn that the flashback technique is not Jane Gardam's usual style - Bellamarie would  probably enjoy reading Betty's story, The Man in the Wooden Hat - in chronological order. ;) I'm wondering if "THE MAN"  was Veneering...

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2011, 11:42:02 AM »
It seems that Eddie's surpressed memories center on the women(girls) in his life.  I'm trying to figure out if his need to forget them stems from the fact that he was a "Raj Orphan" - a motherless one at that - or from what happened to him later at the HOME.  So many of the children we hear from have been separated from their parents at a young age.  They were "orphaned" much as Eddie was, in that they didn't really know their parents, don't you think?

Eddie's bad memories seem to be associated with whatever happened in Wales.  I thought the opening scene in Wales was much like a photograph of the three cousins - all Raj Orphans.  Standing apart they were, not looking at one another, not speaking to one another when Auntie May arrives.  Eddie, closed face, quiet dignity  at full attention.   "Pink little Claire" - smiling - arms open for an embrace.  Claire seems none the worse from staying at the Didds.

Babs  (how many times was this girl described as "dark" - did you count?)  She's off by herself, "leaning against the outhouse. - unsmiling"  Think about it - WHO would lean against an outhouse?  Don't you wonder what Babs was like she came to Wales? Maybe we'll find out more -as the story progresses.  Bellamarie, do you remember Cumberledge?  I've somehow forgotten his name when Babs tells "Teddy Bear"  that the four of them will never forget one another -  " You and I and Claire.  And Cumberledge.  Whatever happens to us."  
That was quite a revelation - when at Oxford Teddy runs into Babs and she asks him to go to bed with her - "We have before," she tells him.  He was just a little boy - what can this mean? Perhaps this is the terrible event that Teddy is trying to forget?

And then came "SIR" - have you noticed that Sir has no use for women - doesn't want to talk about Claire or Babs, doesn't want girls in his school - as students, or visiting mothers.  No letters from mothers allowed either.  What did you think of this man?  Do you think his school had an effect on how young Edward viewed women?


PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2011, 12:48:37 PM »
Cumberledge is a big mystery so far.  He is mentioned 3 or 4 times in connection with the tragedy, but always a single phrase or sentence which doesn't tell us much.

That's a useful summary, Bellamarie.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2011, 02:38:40 PM »
No, JoanP,  I do not remember Cumberledge, I honestly thought it was a place rather than a person.  Eekkk I guess I haven't paid very close attention if he is mentioned 3 or 4 times.  I did notice how Sir has no use for women, yet he makes it very clear there is no gay relationships at his school (David & Jonathon).  Interesting how Jane points out that Mrs. Ingoldby is/was Eddie's first English love.  So was it apparent to the brothers he had a crush on their mother?  Seems the family cut him out quite quickly for them to have allowed him to be such a close part of their family all those years.  Is it possible the family heard the suspicions of Eddie and Pat being too close and people were thinking it was inappropriate?  I am a bit confused about Babs wanting to sleep with Eddie saying it happened before, yet she is lesbian. 

I also am encouraged to hear JoanR say it all falls into place.  We are half way through the book and yet nothing seems to be falling into place for me...lolol 

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2011, 06:06:23 PM »
Cumberledge - another mystery for our list, PatH.  A boy from Wales Babs says she'll never forget - an orphan with the Didds?  A boy in the school?  Patience is the name of the game - we'll learn the answer when JG is ready to reveal more about him.
 
When Eddie meets up with Babs in Oxford - he realizes "that since the Ma Didds'  horror he had never given a thought to either Babs or Claire."  What does that tell us about the "horror"?  Would like to know what you think?  Eddie is a young man at this time - is he 19?  Bellamarie - Babs is an interesting character, isn't she?  We know these two girls are Eddie's cousins - but do we know if they are sisters to one another?  They are so different - Babs, dark, Claire...pink.

Here's a question - for you birdwatchers -
Remember when Sir drove Eddie to his school - told him he was going to learn to read Latin  understand Euclid - and that by the time he left his Outfit thereis not a bird butterfy or flower, not a fish or insect of the British Isles he will not recognize.  Since I noted that, I began to notice the names of birds - all of them are not familiar to me.  Bell birds, swifts...  Do you see the others?  Are they familiar to you?  In the opening chapter, Filth is referred to as a "coelacanth."
I'm thinking that perhaps JG is a birdwatcher herself.  But are birds important to this story, or part of the scenery?


bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2011, 08:46:59 PM »
JoanP
Quote
When Eddie meets up with Babs in Oxford - he realizes "that since the Ma Didds'  horror he had never given a thought to either Babs or Claire."  What does that tell us about the "horror"?  Would like to know what you think?

Isn't it a natural defense of the mind to forget or just displace abuse, or horrific events in one's life, especially at such a young age?  I sometimes think its a person's only salvation.  Yet, at some point in time it seems it surfaces for the person to deal with in one way or another whether it be failed relationships, nervous breakdowns, or genetic mental disorders that manifest due to the events.  While researching bipolar/manic depressant years ago I learned, its genetic and can remain dormant all your life,  but tragic events can trigger it to manifest.  I am sure there are other disorders that can also be triggered to manifest due to these type of events.  I can see why Eddie would not give a thought to Babs and Claire or who ever this Cumberledge is.  Seems running into Babs has now triggered a dream on the train of this person with a brown face throwing him in the air.  Am I the only one who sees this dream as a sensitive, loving person/act, could it be Ada?

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2011, 09:53:38 PM »
I can do the Coelacanth.  It's not a bird, it's a fish.  It was known only from fossils, and thought to have become extinct at the end of the Devonian period (that's before the dinosaurs) until, in 1938, a living one was discovered in the deep waters off South Africa.  So they're calling O. F.  a living fossil.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/highlight/coelacanth/

It's pretty ugly.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2011, 11:56:50 PM »
JoanP, My week has been so hectic hat I was unable to post in greater detail.  In fact, I didn't see Winsumm's short post and noticed after reading your post, went back and saw your quewstion. I have known Winsumm for years. We we both in WREX, I know her writing and her art work. We have not been in touch for some time. In fact I thought about her and meant to ask.  Here's waving to you, Claire!

No, I have not heard from anyone about their not liking this book.  Why would anybody tell me that ?  What would be the reason? Frankly, the question surprised me.
No,  JoanP, The Man in the Wooden Hat is not Veneering.

I believe it is important to find the key to this book. First we have to adjust to Gardam's pace and  we need to pay attention to every word.
IMHO we get a clearer picture when we read e.g. Wales, The Outfit and School together,  and do the same with the other chapters of this second assignment. We should know also that "public" schools in England are what we call private schools.
All the details about Edward's schooling  =were prearranged (see Kotakinakulu) and prepaid by Edward's father. The frequency of letters Edward needs to write is similarly set.  The independent spinster aunts hold at least some of the purse strings, one must assume because Eddie writes to them on one occasion for money for a gift.

The relationships within the Ingoldby family also need another look by me. As for Isobel, she is at the house with the family one summer and stays mostly outside, refusing to come in to eat. Eddie goes out to persuade her to come in and is clumsily intrigued.  That night she comes into Eddie's room and he banishes her. But he'll see her again, as we know.

It's late but I have more reading to do.


rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #106 on: June 10, 2011, 02:28:36 AM »
As you know, i still don't have the book, but I just popped in to say, re people not liking it, that I lent it to my neighbour once, and she gave it back saying that she "just couldn't get into it".  She is a geriatric psychiatrist and says she just can't cope with reading books about old people after a day of dealing with them  :).  It's a wonder she could put up with me...... :D

Rosemary

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #107 on: June 10, 2011, 05:58:57 AM »
Oh Rosemary, just for us old guys.. Sort of a odd psychiatrist. Oh well. I keep thinking of Edwards isolation. He seems to lose anyone that he loves.. I think he clung to Betty without knowing where she was happy or not..
Stephanie and assorted corgi

Babi

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #108 on: June 10, 2011, 09:05:52 AM »
I like you image of a photograph of the three cousins standing apart when we first see
them, JOANP. It did seem to establish a relationship that I suspect will carry on through
the story.
 I'm not up to the meeting with Babs yet.  I still have earlier things to consider.

  I smile at the joint pretense of Eddie and Betty that they could work the computer programs if they tried.  I am pleased at the hint of his fondness for her in the line, “He glared at her, then softened as he watched her healthy, outdoor face and her eyes that had never caught her out.”    And what did that last part mean, really?   That they always faced him honestly?   It is sad that on that day, when he thinks to himself  that one of his Personal Wishes is that she would never leave him,  that is the day she quietly dies.
 I find the scenes around Betty’s dying gentle, filled with happy memories,  laughter at her own weakness.  “Well, I was never John Travolta. And it is November." She makes the decision, without upset, to bury the ‘guilty’ pearls; it simply seems the thing to do. This seems
such a peaceful way to go.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #109 on: June 10, 2011, 01:47:29 PM »
"...and her eyes that had never caught her out.”    Babi, I'm not familiar with this expression, but yes, I thought as you did -  Betty's eyes never
gave him reason to suspect she was anything other than what she appeared to be.  But he does seem to suspect her of something - which he chooses not to admit.  He is really good at suppression, don't you think?  Like you, Steph, I think he's clinging to Betty, whether she's happy with him or not.  Do you get the feeling that she's just tolerating him - because she has no other option?

 When Filth said  he hadn't thought of Babs and Claire in years, I thought of two different explanations -
Bellamariethinks it "a natural defense of the mind to forget or just displace abuse, or horrific events in one's life, especially at such a young age."  
That would be one explanation... he's repressed many unpleasant memories over time - and maybe even forgotten them.  (Bella, yes, I think J Gardam is suggesting the boy's flashbacks to Ada - with mention of brown babies, banana tree leaves...He's having trouble remembering her though - another repressed memory?

Or maybe Eddie hasn't thought of Babs and Claire because   the horror didn't involve the girl cousins at all.  Maybe the horror happened with Ma Didds, or with the boy -  Billy Cumberledge...
Or it could have happened in the school.  Sir stressed that his school was "clean" - that what happened at the villge school was the resutlt of the mixing of the sexes...it would not happen at his school.  No homo sex either... no sex, period.


JoanP

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #110 on: June 10, 2011, 02:05:37 PM »
It's difficult to find passages when the chapters go back and forth in time, isn't it?  Traude, forgive me -  I misundertood what you meant when you wrote "... even if we do not like a certain book, we can still have a good discussion."  I assumed you were referring to a specific comment that I missed - from someone   having trouble with the flip-flopping in time.  I agree - there are many things to like about the book, even it is somewhat confusing at times.  And I am holding on to JoanR's comment that all will make sense at the end.

Rosemary, about your friend,  the geriatric psychiatrist -  not liking the book because it's about "old people"...old people each with a child within, with a story to tell.  I'm sort of stunned at  her reaction - but won't say more than that.  Except, I'd like a second opinion - from a different geriatric psychiatrist. ;)


I had trouble trying to find the references to Billy Cumberledge - finally found  this - "Silent Cumberledge whose spirit had never been completely broken."
His spirit comes to Eddie  - triggered by the letter from Isobel Ingoldby - whom he descibes as "the last traitor of all the traitorous Ingoldbys."

Have we seen Filth react as strongly - as angrily as he did when he read Isobel's letter of condolence?  She's pushed his buttons, revived his memorie of some long-ago experience in the yew trees.  I'm going toreread  the chapter at the Ingoldbys - to tell the truth,  I didn't even remember her she sent the letter.  She seems to be another unpleasant memory Eddie has repressed.

PatH - thank you for the coelacanth - a fossil fish.  With a picture of the  fish too - ugly, yes.  How inappropriate - our Filth is quite the looker, don't you think?  The ladies seemed to think so - judging from Isobel's letter.  It's worth reading again, I think.

Jonathan

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #111 on: June 10, 2011, 04:28:20 PM »
I got the impression that Isabel tried seducing the fourtee-year-old Eddie at High House all those many years ago, leaving him with a hang-up that stayed with him for the rest of his life. Sir Edward is a complex man. Talk about memories. What is Eddie trying to forget? Didn't he tell us early-on that he made a big effort in training himself to forget? Why is he remembering now?

I wonder, too, about the psychiatrist not caring to read more of what she was getting all day. Perhaps it seemed too far out for her. Perhaps she lacked an appreciation for the brilliant legal mind. Just look at the meaning Sir Edward puts into an experienced bereavement:

'lost, gone, over, finished, happened, dead'

And we are getting the details. Who was it that had Sir Edward looking like a coelacanth? I liked Betty's vision of him from the tulip bed:

And now, standing with the trowel, head (sic) racing a bit with the effort of being John Travola, she closed her eyes against dizziness. She opened them again, shaded them with her hand and saw him seated above her in the sun-lounge. He had some sort of wrap over his bony, parted knees. The drape of it and the long narrow face staring into the sun made him look like a Christ in Majesty over a cathedral gate. All that was needed was the raised hand in blessing.

He must also have lookd impressive on the bench in his judge's robes and wig. Oh, my god. With that Betty dropped over dead!

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2011, 07:11:39 PM »
Jonathan, I agree that Isabel attempted some sort of seduction, and she says in her letter that she loved him.  She also says she is gay, so I'm not sure what "love" means here.  Tough for a 14 year old to be faced with this kind of pressure.  At the time, Eddie felt  victorious for not succumbing.

I'm guessing the reason the geriatric psychiatrist couldn't stand the book was not because it is too far out, but because it is too accurate.  If you deal with those issues all day, you need to escape them, decompress, or you burn out.  The last thing she wants in her down time is to be plunged back into all the stuff she's dealing with all day.

bellamarie

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2011, 07:52:31 PM »
I'm finding it interesting to find O.F has seemed to catch the eye or interest of Babs, Isobel and Mrs. Ingoldby during his young years and teens and yet two are lesbians and the other is married.  What is it about him that attracts these girls/women, its almost like the forbidden fruit syndrome. 

rosemary, I can clearly understand your friend's reason for not wanting to read the book for not being able to "get into it." because it is a bit difficult.  With all due respect the book is more about O.F.'s years as a child and leading up to his present time, I can hardly see it as a book about "old people."  I am a little intrigued as to the age of this neighbor and her attitude toward her "old people she has to deal with all day."

Okay I am off to tackle next week's assigned chapters......can't wait to see the pieces of this puzzle fall into place.  I will certainly read The Man in the Wooden Hat when we finish this book.  I HAVE to have Betty's perspective!!

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2011, 07:58:02 PM »
Birds: I forgot that our real birder, JoanK, isn't in this discussion, so I'll have to fill in.  The swifts are easy.  They look a bit like swallows.  Here, we mostly have the chimney swift.  It's stubby, the tail is blunt, not forked, well described as "a cigar with wings".  Quote from my bird book: "during migration they roost by the hundreds in tall chimneys, entering in a huge funnel formation at dusk".  I'd love to see that, but don't think my chimney is up to it.  My Peterson Guide for Britain and Europe shows a somewhat similar bird, but with a short forked tail.

The bell bird is a problem, though.  Help, Rosemarykaye!  It's not in my British Peterson, and JoanK tells me it's an Australian bird.  Do you know what it is in Wales?

bellemere

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2011, 08:48:31 PM »
I love the flashback method, if that is what you call it.  It is like meeting Old Filth and getting to know him.  Like peeling the layers of an onion.
I had a question maybe a lawyerly type could answer.  What is a 50 percent failure ratefor a judge?  Is it that 50 percent  of his courtroom decisins were overturned on appeal? 
And why did Filth decide to go to Hong Kong and not to Malaya, where he had such a happy childhood?
And could some of his father's detachment stem from opium addiction, a possibility alluded to by Babs? His funny yellow color could have come from gas in WWI.
Whatever happened in Wales had to be more than schoolyard hazing, to have such a traumatic effect.
I have gotten ahead with my reading so I must stop now rather than "spoil" the story for those maitaining the proper pace. 
I am so glad we got this book

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #116 on: June 10, 2011, 10:08:18 PM »
JoanP, yes, I agree. the jumbling of chapters tends to confuse and is a bit annoying. But there are clues from the very beginning.
We hear first what his colleagues, most of them decades younger, know of him or have heard about him. He has almost become a myth. He himself coined FILTH, and he is known by that moniker, and also referred to as coelacanth, a group of fishes, all extinct, a word I looked up as soon as I read it. O.F. wasn't that old, but to the young men he seemed a fossil, as PatH aptly put it.

So here he is at the end of his life, and they say about him  "well preserved"; "rich as Croesus; "a great man"; pretty easy life"; "Nothing ever seems to have happened to him".
And then Gardam writes
Nothing.
And then she proceeds to tell us.

Re Wales. I believe that Edward really did not think of Babs and Claire after he was taken to Sir's Outfit. He deliberately hid the memory of Malaya and Wales "behind tightly closed shutters". Only after Betty's death did he "flip them open".
He had buried the memories of Kotakinakulu but they did surface at least once in the chapters we've read.  He grew up with Ada and her family, she was 12 when he was born,  and about 15 when Aunty May suggested that he should be sent Home, that wasn't  a home.  He had believed she would come along and, alone on the boat with Aunty May, he sobbed his heart out until Ajuntie May, well prepare for such desperate separations, gave him a drink that put him to sleep. He never mentioned Ada again.

Then came Wales. A three-year episode is ending.  The three children are outside,  idly waiting, and Auntie May locks the now empty house.  She is getting married and soon off to the Belgian Congo. Edward pretends not to know Auntie May but he shakes hands with her when he leaves with Sir. He instinctively takes to the man (a father figure?)  Aunty May will also hand over control of Babs and Claire to other people until their parents return from India to claim them. To me, the picture of the three children is not a happy Why one. They are standing there separately,  impassively,  silent, Edward sullen. Repeatedly we hear of "tragedy" and "horror" Are the children in shock or frightened? We don't know but the curtain will be lifted.
 
The children had attended the village school and learned Welsh. Sir didn't have a high opinion of that. "Don't go near Wales," he would later say to Edward, and he must have remembered. When Betty and he wondered where in Britain the'd settle, Wales was dismissed at once.

The pairing with Pat Ingoldby was inspired. Pat was a talker, Edward lost his stammer. He was invited to High House for summer vacations and treated like one of the family, and he firmly believed he was a ember of the family. (In a chapter on this week assignment he finds out that he is not a memer of that family after all, another bitter disappointment.) He loved Pat's mother who was forever cheerful, always smiled, did little things for everyone around, and suffered her choleric husband's rants without complaining. We understand that the Ingoldby Lancashire estate included arge fields and, a distance away, the carpet factory that had been the family's main source of come for two generations.  

One sentence puzzles me : Far below the avenues to the west you could look down the chimneys of the family business which was   a factory set in a deli. [/color].
A  factory set in a deli ??
In this country a deli as an abbreviation for delicatessen and I wonder what connection there is between a  carpet factory and a "deli" or food store.   Could we please call on Rosemarie again and ask whether "deli" has a different meaning in England ?

At High House Eddie meets Isobel for the first time the summer he is 14. Mrs. Ingoldby tells him Isobel finds them boring, and asks Eddie to encourage Isobel  (who dislikes polished tables) to join them for lunch int he house. That night Isobel comes into Eddie's room and asks what he thinks of her.
He knows that something is expected of him but he has no idea what. Then he thinks She's old and she is evil and she only wants to hurt, and finds that he is able to sit up straight under the blanket and confront her,  brave, brave - a s Cumberledge. [/b]
He could finish her, as once already in his life he had finished a woman.  Ohhh.

Why does he have to confront her ?
Why does he say Isobel is evil ? Also, she's she is hardly  "old", she failed three terms.
Moreover,  at this point he and we do not know she's lesbian.

I'm not sure O.F. suspects Betty of infidelity. In fact, in Veneering's house that Christmas night he says to the old adversary "She was very faithful." (pg. 29)  Because of his past we can assume, I believe, that O.F. was insecure, perpetually afraid of losing her as he had lost and/or been rejected by other people before. He depended on Betty, she was his rock. Bellamfrie quoted a crucial phrase above (please check) and let me paraaphrase it, "He had Betty, he was not afraid of failure."  It is possible, of course, that his feelings for her were stronger than hers for him, but that has happened to couples before and will again. Their marriage appears to have been solid and calm, without  differences of opinion or quarrels. There were sorrows, of course, and Isobel's letter hints at that.

Jonathan, yes, those pearls, hmmm

JoanP,  I also was surprised by the statements  of Rosemarie'sfriend, the geriatric psychiatrist. Perhaps she dislikes her job. Perhaps she has to treat Alzheimer patients, which must be trying. But then  O.F. is not about old people. It is the portrait of one man from birth to death - even though not in chronological order - and the people in his life.  It is about getting old, and it happens to all of us.

Back to Betty, briefly. Before the trip to London we don't get a sense that anything is wrong with Betty. During her long walk in London, alone, her heart beats faster. So her death  the next day is rather sudden.
Jonathan, and yes, those 'guilty' pearls, hmm

As for O.F. He questions the extra fare on the train,  "Four pounds, is that each?", he asks.  He who is "rich like Croesus" !
Isn't that rather typical ?  

Babi, I think you are getting into the spirit,  I'm so glad.

Bellamarie, if you read The Man in the Wooden Hat, may we count on you not to reveal it here?  Thank you so much.

Gosh, we have so much more to discuss in this assignment.

straudetwo

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2011, 10:51:23 PM »
Bellemere, so good to see you here. Welcome!

Yes, the question of the 50% ratio is an important one. We have briefly touched on it, but Rosemarie is the person to answer it.
I had another thought. Since there was ongoing professional rivalry between O.F. and Veneering when they were on different sides in the same cases, could this perhaps be meant ?

Eddie's father suffered from shell-shock and acquired malaria, hence the yellow color.  He may have suffered also from an addiction.


rosemarykaye

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2011, 01:58:23 AM »
Hello,

As you know, I am writing this without the benefit of the text, but to answer your questions:

So far as I know, a deli is a deli wherever it is - I can't imagine what this means in this context unless it is a misprint for "dell", which would mean a wooded valley of some sort.

I think you are right about the 50% failure rate - pretty sure it would mean that half of his decisions were overturned by a higher court.  I don't know what the average rate is - that would be interesting!

I'm afraid I have no idea about the bellbird - maybe this is a question for Jane Gardam?

As to my neighbour, I am not sure what she meant about the book - but I know she didn't like anything with an unhappy ending (I am just speaking generally here - I can't even remember exactly what happens at the end of Old Filth, and my neighbour did not get to the end of it, she just thought that that was what was coming) and always asked me to lend her "happy" books (she never kept a book in the house as she was obsessively tidy) - I know she enjoyed I Capture The Castle, Miss Pettigrew Lives For A Day, and things  like that.  She does work exclusively with dementia patients (not that that has any bearing on this book, so far as I can remember) and I think she just needs things to cheer her up.  Another friend, who is a much keener reader, loved Old Filth and read Gardam's other novels afterwards.  I must say that although I love this book, one of the many reasons why I don't go for face to face book groups is that they seem so keen on books that I would find hard work - for example, I really don't want to Talk About Kevin.

I can't believe the library is taking so long to transport this book from one branch to another - it would have been quicker for me to get on the bus and go and get it off the shelf, but being so new to Edinburgh I don't actually know where the branch in question is.

Rosemary

Steph

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Re: Old Filth by Jane Gardam ~ June Bookclub Online
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2011, 06:03:28 AM »
I know that since mdh death 18 months ago, I cannot deal with bad endings or too much violence. I read the Paul Scott that is being discussed, but got so upset at the end, that I stopped with the discussion. Like your friend, I need happy endings just now. I know what unhappy endings are like.. A new counselor yesterday.. one that actually gives advice. I really did like her.
Stephanie and assorted corgi