Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  1: (pp-112)

1. Sisyphus!   Sillybos! Persephone!  Demeter!  Hades!  Dionysus! Parthenope!  Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena!  Cybele! Harpy! And many more!   The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion.  What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.

2.   "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?

3.   What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie  and her point of view have on the reader?  Do you think this narrator so far is  reliable? Why or why not?

4.   Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events.  Why?

5.   Do you understand the tetraktys? What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)?   Does anyone know anything about  Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory?  What does the word tetraktys itself mean?

6. What are the some of the  main conflicts in this first section?

7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved  with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?

8.  Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go?  Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?

9.   How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of  imagery you particularly liked?

10. We have  a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how  many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)

11.  What foreshadowing did you notice  in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you?   Do you think the phone call was from  Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?

12.  What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?

13. What are some of the emerging themes of this first section?[/b]


-------------1. death (and the possibility of rebirth?)-- the shootings         (Deems)
-------------2. being buried alive (Deems)
-------------3. suffocation--Sophie's lungs, the nuns cells (Deems)
-------------4. a descent into the underworld (Deems)
-------------5. drowning (ginny)
-------------6.Sophie and her mother (drowned?) (Deems)
-------------7. Demeter and Persephone (mother and daughter)(Deems)
-------------8. Sophie and Agnes (Deems)
-------------9. Iusta and her mother Vitalis (Deems)
------------10. male treatment of women (bellamarie)

15. Have you learned something you did not know previously in the first 112 pages? If so what?

Schedule Chapters 1-9 for  June 1 - 7 Chapters 10-16 for June 8 - 14 Chapters 17-24 for June 15 - 22 Chapters 25-End for  June 23 - 30

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Interesting Links NYC Interview with Carol Goodman / Book Gathering '08 Carol Goodman Homepage The Philodemus Project -- Herculaneum Papyri Fordham Roman Mystery Religions (submitted by Suzie) Cult  (submitted by Marcie) Real or Fictional ? Links to Classical References in the NIGHT VILLA- researched by participants

In the first week of June, Week I  we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in  the first 112 pages. If your question  may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one  for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.

Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny

Roman books as  papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
  A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.



New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!

Kidsal....Thank you, I will check out the insert key, once I locate it.  lolol  I taught computers at a K-8 private school for 15 yrs on Apple/Macs, and then I have had a Compaq/HP desktop for 10 yrs in my home.  I decided to treat myself to a laptop HP a few weeks ago, and I just can not get used to this Vista.  I think my patience is wearing then.  lol  It seems to be working okay now so maybe I accidentally hit the insert key and didn't know it.  lolol

[ALF43]

That is the beauty of sharing ideas, Steph, while reading.  One person will take an interest in one thought where as another may have missed that point completely.
 
Like Joan and Bellamarie, I like a book that has a great plot to follow and that allows my interest to become piqued, encouraging questions and the NEED to know, so-- I look for references to read and learn.

  I don't believe that in any book discussion we "read too much into it."  If we did not indulge ourselves  how would we come up with these brilliant questions for our beautiful author or how would Deems be able to find these parallels like :

Sophie and her mother (drowned?)
Demeter and Persephone
Sophie and Agnes
Iusta and her mother

[ALF43]

THANK YOU SO MUCH CAROL FOR YOUR HONEST AND INTRIGUING ANSWERS.

[bellamarie]

I think a theme I see, as I mentioned before, is disrespect and mistreatment of women by men.  Also, you can not overlook, love hurts.  I keep feeling for lack of a better word, polar opposites.  It seems like what should be logical, is illogical, like I said before...yen and yang.  It's a little early and my brain has not awakened, though my eyes have, so I will get back later once I can sort these thoughts out.

Alf I agree, if we don't indulge ourselves we would never come up with such fun ideas and questions.  I love that Carol is here to sort them out for us and direct us if we go too far off the path.  I personally learn more than I would imagine, going on digs.  lolol

Ciao for now..............

[ginny]

What a joy to get up and see Carol's answers which I loved, thank you so much, Carol!  Could not wait to get here and see if she had come in and boy had she!  

Sophie’s not supernatural, she’s just a TEXAN!

What does this mean? I love it, but I don't know anything about Texans, and hoo, Sophie DID cut the grass!!  Who knew?

I got up thinking about Sophie. How old do you all think she is? I got up remarking on how much injury she's sustained in the first quarter of the book: shooting victim, loss of first baby, loss of husband. That's a heck of a lot of trauma for one person to carry around, and SHE'S the one who feels responsible.   Her mother drowned, we need to go back and reread that one, she's really had a time. And I think psychologists say that the support of the husband is very important in a miscarriage, and she had none. She's had a time. She must be pretty tough.

How do you see Sophie? Tough? Not? What has Texan to do with it? (Do you know anybody in Texas?) Let's talk about Sophie!

[ginny]

OH and Carol thank you for the "plug"  for your husband by Lee Slonimsky's  Pythagoras in Love! I knew he had written the poems in your book, but knew nothing else.

 I googled it and you can look in the book's index  and the first poem I saw was Three- Four- Five! Now who could resist that one?

So I read that and was absolutely blown away! I guess I can't post it here, copyright and all,  but WOW! Have ordered it to keep.  Wow. Thank you!

[ginny]

Gosh we're mid week already!! Stephanie, what would YOU like to talk about concerning this book before we have to move on to the next section?

Before the week ends, I hope that everybody will come in and mention what stood out for them the most in this first section, or anything they would like to talk about.

 Thank you for those themes, Deems and bellmere.  I am intrigued by the men/ women thing as I don't see it, but  it could be another parallel!

Joan, "Jargon?" hahaha Oh heck, does that mean I have to give up "language-using sophonts?" hahahaaa I have to ask: what IS a selkie?

haha Deems, it was the definition itself I wanted translated. I love that memes thing, thank you  Eloise for that translation also.

You know, people are SO different, that's one thing I like about these book DISCUSSIONS.  Some people see things like sophonts and are intimidated,  or they see things like Bacchoi and just read on, thinking it will all be explained later.  This book is FULL of that type of thing. I've never been one to ignore the elephant in the living room, to me, it's here for a reason. It may or may not  be explained at the end.

I'm the same way, I see Pythagoras and think, oh lemme see if I can glide by on that one, since Math to me is total mystery and  anathema.

Others see Sirens and Bacchoi and think OH BOY I get to learn something new?

Every reader has a personal relationship with the book, nothing can remove that. But sitting in a circle and talking about the book, different people will see different things, as Eloise would say vive la difference! (or I hope that's right)  We all have the same floor here, and we  need to be open to everybody's ideas. If the subject of the day does not appeal, give us one that does, so we can talk about it. You can consult the Reader's Guide questions in the back of the book if you like and answer one of those.


That said, those of you we have not heard from, what do YOU want to say about the first 112 pages?


Where is Norma who said this book was an epiphany for her?

One theme (Deems correct me?) I see is mysteries. Lots of mysteries already, old and new. The Mystery Religions are really mysteries, nobody really knows about them, but there are a million variations, in each myth. How about the classical references or mythology? Are they themes? I am a little weak on the word THEME.

Pyghagoras to me is a mystery. So it's fine with me to have lots of exciting unknowns  and pathways to veer off on, but every voice (except Carol's of course) is equal  here, please do express YOURSELVES.

 If you don't like what's in the heading, do your own thing. Let us know what you are thinking!

[ALF43]

I am interested in Ely's chanting of those fragments from a Pythagorean text called the Golden Verses.   
Practicioners of Pythagoreanism were supposed to ask themselves these 3 questions every night.

1.  Where did I go wrong today?
2.  What did I accomplish?
3.  What obligation did I NOT perform?

So far these questions seem irrelevant to me.  Do they mean dsomething that I've missed.  Sophie answered them by saying she got up to #1 question, she got herself shot in answer to #2 question and I'm not sure about #3.

She wondered if these questions were a test to get past the ferryman as she felt "the whirlpool beneath her bed sucking too hard on her chest, sucking her down into Hades."  (That would be her chest tube to help reinflate her lung.

Make no mistake Sophie was gravely injured.  The bullet went through the back of Dale Henry's head and into two inches of the mahogany table before it entered her two ribs and punctured a lung.     You can tell that Carol had consulted a pulmonologist when she wrote of this.

 She awoke with reams of guilt and then "went into the arms of Morpheus" when the nurse attended to her.

Ginny, I don't think that Sophie and Ely were married.  They settled in the "little house together" near the campus but that was without the nuptuals, I think.

[Deems]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

Thank you, Carol, for all those answers.  Those of us who don't write novels are always interested in how the mind of the writer works--at least I am.  Your editor must be helpful to you what with making sure that you tie up important ends! 

Q. for Carol:  How much preparatory reading do you do for your novels?  I imagine it varies with different books, but am curious especially about this one.

[Frybabe]

Ginny, the Selkie is an old Irish Folktale, and according to Wikipedia also of Iceland, Scotland and the Faroe Islands. There are several versions, but basically, the seal comes ashore certain times of the year and sheds its skin to become a woman (they are mostly women, but sometimes men). If someone finds and hides the skin she cannot return to the sea but must stay on shore and do as the finder bids. Here is the link to wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkie


Meme is apparently from the Greek mīmeîsthai: to copy, to imitate. It was coined by Richard Dawkins, a British biologist and author of a bunch of books including The Selfish Gene.  Meme has to do with cultural evolution. I suppose that means, for example, how a word or phrase comes into common use, or how various fashion styles start out as new and different and eventually become common. You can read more about Dawkins at his official website: http://richarddawkins.net/

[bellamarie]

Another theme throughout the first 112 pages which obviously will continue throughout the entire book is...past and present and how it effects the future.

Carol mentioned she was not aware of any tetrakty cults.  I was looking around today and found a couple definitions for tetrakty, one ....a triangle figure consisting of ten points arranged in four rows: one, two three, and four points in each row. As a mystical symbol, it was very important to the followers of the secret worship of the Pythagoreans. 

A picture of it is like a pyramid, and it also reminded me of how bowling pins are set up so if hit in the right spot, they will all fall down.  As I recall, the cult Ely joined used this symbol.

[ginny]

Andrea:

I don't think that Sophie and Ely were married.

I did NOT catch that! Is that what the rest of you also thought? Well anyway the loss would  have been double fold, of Ely and of the baby.

I have to admit I did ask myself those three questions last night. It was hard to get past the first one hahahhaa

1.  Where did I go wrong today?
2.  What did I accomplish?
3.  What obligation did I NOT perform?

Sins of omission and commission.  I just read an interesting article on attitude. It seems that the Polyanna attitude is not what really makes a difference in the long run to an individual,  but rather the one which acknowledges the mistakes, makes changes and makes it soar ultimately. I wonder if the above is the current Pythagorean theory, does anybody know?

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Frybabe,  thank you for the Seklie and the meme. Looks like every culture has its myths or fables or what not.


Did you say you work nights?  You're reading  "chapters of  History of Mathematics pertaining to early Egyptian, Greek and Mesopotamian geometry."

You are kidding! Is there anything in there that pertains to what we're reading? You mathematicians MUST help us here!


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I really liked one of bellamarie's submissions on Plato, like this one, "Plato says:  'Those who instituted rites of initiation for us said of old in a parable that the man who came to Hades uninitiated lay in mud, but that those who had been purified and initiated and then came thither dwell with the gods.  For those who are concerned with these rites say, They that bear the wand are many, the Bacchoi are few.'"


She found that in looking up the quote on page 76 and others:   "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi."  And then this:

"The well known saying that seems to indicate that "to be taken by the god" is an event that will happen in an unforeseeable way, and probably only to a few special individuals.  There are mediumistic gifts that are beyond the reach of many.  Even the most common drug often identified with Dionysos, wine, is  not sufficient to induce true bakcheia: anyone can get drunk, but not all are bakchoi."


I could be wrong but that to me is more foreshadowing, there's an initiation coming for somebody, am I not reading that correctly? And it has the promise of life with the gods rather than death in the mud?  The Elephant in the Living Room is quite pointed here, thank you for finding that, Bellamarie.


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Another thing I really like about this book IS the classical allusions.  Older books from 70-100+ years ago were full of them, you almost had to study Latin and the classics to even get the references. You almost literally could not READ or understand the book unless you knew the allusions. Some books today continue that tradition (Umberto Eco  for instance) but it's a rare thing to see it. I really like the fact that not only are they there for atmosphere, and I agree with Joan R that she is great on setting up the atmosphere and putting you right smack into the places she describes, but they also are there to give whoever wants it a chance to expand their perameters  a little.

We've all read older books and authors  which you need a glossary to understand, but here we can enjoy really without learning a thing (I don't see how somebody could not learn SOMETHING, even in the first 112 pages, I have) and THAT is a gift. I love that about the book. If it sends ONE person to the internet or dictionary or reference book that's a blow for the classics.


Maybe we should ask THAT question?  What have you learned you did not know in the first 112 pages? Anything? Inquiring minds want to know!

[NormaLemke]

Back again to Ginny's fascination with Sophie lying on the bathroom floor.  Could this be a foreshadowing of a survival situation or even survival game. She had to get down on the floor to breathe. This is puting my mind into a different mode than I use for everyday life, but into one I can jump into when needed. Allusions are to survival of shooting, drowning, loss of friends, lovers and family. Examining what all can we survive may lead to discovery of what is most important in life. [Hopefully this is not a reflection of travel abroad Mark Twain style].

[PatH]

Back again to Ginny's fascination with Sophie lying on the bathroom floor.  Could this be a foreshadowing of a survival situation or even survival game. She had to get down on the floor to breathe.

I like that, NormaLemke, bet you're right.  There is other foreshadowing too.  Page 58: "...How likely is it that someone's going to try to shoot him (Elgin) twice in one year?"

[ginny]

Norma, I do  like the idea of survival, I think you're right on the foreshadowing and did not realize,  till you posted them,  the other instances!! It looks like survival is another theme, too. I loved this: Examining what all can we survive may lead to discovery of what is most important in life 

You know what?  That makes me want to ask  what IS important or seems important so far to Sophie? What do you all  think? When you thinkk about it, she's lost a great many things which were important to her.

I'm still trying to figure out why she decided to go on the trip.

The book has so many little truisms in it, tho. In looking for the M'Lou last appearance and conversation about the trip, I found this on page 85:

No matter what Ely had ever achieved, it was not in his power to make them [his parents] happy. It was a failing I knew something about, having realized myself at age ten that I hadn't been enough to keep my mother home--or to keep her alive.

That's kind of just tucked away there but it sure has a punch, you've got another reason or parallel in Ely and Sophie's lives, and again  you can see thru the narrator's eyes as a child: feeling at fault for her mother's death.

This kind of thing tends to make me feel empathetic to Sophie, (really to want to tell her no, you were a child, and had nothing to do with your mother's leaving or dying) so many children blame themselves,  and  so you get involved with the character despite yourself.

[ginny]

Hey, Pat, and welcome! I wondered where you were!

[marcie]

QUESTION FOR CAROL

I love the interesting dialog and the very many imaginative details that are included in the novel.

Carol, I'm wondering how you create the characters in your book. Do you imagine them in some detail as real people and then decide what they might do or say or do you create their words and actions more as they relate to events in the plot? Or...?

[Frybabe]

Ginny, the volume I was reading is part of a set from the "Facts on File" Library. It is very general in nature, just giving an overview of important advances in mathematics. One of the points the book makes is that what we know as the Pythagora's Theorum was actually in use in Mesopotamia a thousand years before Pythagoras came along. He was well traveled and when he finally settled down, he established a rather secretive community. Like a commune, everything was shared and no one individual took credit for any mathematical discoveries. His pet theory involved positive integers, so when he discovered irrational numbers, he tried to keep it a secret(reference, The History of Mathematics: Geometry, The Language of Space and Form - John Tabak, Ph. D.) Gee, does that sound familiar - discover something, but keep it a secret because it interferes with or disproves the pet theory or project you worked hard to promote?  I thought I saw somewhere that this secretive behavior of his almost got him executed.

[kidsal]

Note that "The Power of Myth" is back on PBS this month.

[ALF43]

fRYBABY-

Gee, does that sound familiar - discover something, but keep it a secret because it interferes with or disproves the pet theory or project you worked hard to promote?  I thought I saw somewhere that this secretive behavior of his almost got him executed.

ahahaaaaaaaaaaaa--- Ask our former President and VP about that statement.

I will be leaving all of you for four days while you trek over to Naples and around the "sites."
Your posts are brilliant, witty, introspective and so informative.  I will try to peek in while basking my 160 large on the beach.   Hang in there Ginny, you've got your hands full with this group of accomplished readers.

Andy

[Steph]

I love the book and consider Sophie an interesting character.. Dont quite understand her mental confusion , but have never been shot and that may change how you look at things.
Sophie's relationship with her mother and aunt are interesting. She feels or seems to feel that something got left out for her. Dont know if we will learn more about them, but hope so.
I suspect Ely is going to pop up in this story later on.. Wish I didnt.. He is thus far a truly ugly person.. Totally self absorbed.

[Mippy]

Good mornin'  everyone ~ and Steph, I agree with you ~
After several weeks of baby-helping it's difficult to wind up my brain to explore themes in
such a complex book with wonderful mythical under-stories.   I hesitate to jump in with Professor Deems and others being experts on lit. et al, but here goes ...

I think the take-home from the first section is that Sophie is a complex, brilliant, and mature, but confused, guilty woman, who still blames herself for what went wrong in her life, such as her mother's death, as Ginny mentioned above.   She also seems to take upon herself each failed relationship, despite the fact that her boyfriend appears to be entirely flaky.  

Don't we  know women who walk around under a cloud thinking they are to blame for the woes of the world?  I sure do know several  ...  certainly, definitely not myself  

[bellamarie]

Ginny......"what IS important or seems important so far to Sophie?"

That's an interesting question and I really had to give it some thought.  Her mother obviously was important to her even though she was abandoned by her.  I do feel Ely has a significant place in her life, even though he too abandoned her.  She seems extremely interested in Iusta, needing to know whether she had been freed.  Sophie, does not seem to have any  particular material attachments of importance, except for her thesis.  I think her education and her teaching job stands out to be the center of her purpose in life at this point.  She seemed genuinely interested in Agnes, but I have to ask myself is it because she sees Agnes as a young female needing protected?

on pg. 27-28 Sophie is talking about Clare , the psych major/room mate asking her if she knew what she was doing (relating to her pregnancy)  She says..."Was it because my grandparents had raised me a Catholic and I thought abortion was a sin?  Was it because my mother had me when she was only seventeen and if she hadn't let her parents talk her out of an abortion I wouldn't be here?  Or was it because I wanted to relive my mother's story, only this time keep the baby and not let some crazy religious fanatics get ahold of it thus rewriting my own childhood crisis of abandonment?"

Then on pg. 55 she is talking about Elgin critiquing her thesis..."I'm surprised at how much this saddens me.  After all, if she died in the eruption, what difference does it make if she died a free woman or slave?"  "You've romanticized your subject," Elgin had commented on the first draft of my thesis, in which I argued that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists. "And overidentified with them."  The remark had stung more than it should have.  I had told Elglin about my childhood, my strict German-Catholic grandparents, who probably thought they were doing their best by me but who treated me as if I were a time bomb that at any moment might destroy all our lives just like your mother had.  That had been the refrain I grew up with ---just like your mother--

[ginny]

Gosh what an interesting bunch of comments, all different, all something I did not know. I think, let's do this, on our last day Sunday  in this section, let's...I'm hung up on Mippy's Take Away, I wanted to ask that but since I personally have no clue as to the answer, I was afraid to.

We need to ask a "Take Away" question and  what have you learned question before we leave this section.

I think that's a great "Take Away," Mippy, and I wonder about this statement of yours: She also seems to take upon herself each failed relationship, despite the fact that her boyfriend appears to be entirely flaky.  

That is another thing she has in common with Agnes, perhaps, flaky boyfriends. Why IS it some people make bad matches? We're all familiar with the apparently odd matched couple.

 I read once (are any of you psychologists?) that it's not like which attracts like, but rather the opposite, that people look for a person who unconsciously they can relate to because of the...what's the word, shared...wounds for a better word, that they have in common, realizing they can handle the good stuff. I wonder if that's true. If it is, it certainly explains Sophie's choice in men so far, she had a lot of trauma in common with Ely.

Kidsal said "The Power of Myth" is back on PBS this month" and this interested me, thank you Kidsal, and  I went to look it up. You can actually see an hour of it free here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7315339866399210257

You will be surprised at the "myths" HE is talking about, starting with the creation story in Genesis, paralleled in American Indian lore, then in the country of India. What I watched of it did not include the ancients tho he certainly mentioned them.

I know Cathy and Suzie are taking courses in this (or in Ancient Greek and Roman Mythology),  and the whole subject is quite interesting, here's one of his quotes:

...on mythology....

These bits of information from ancient times which have to do with the themes that have supported man's life and built civilizations, informed religions, over the millennia, have to do with deep inner problems, inner mysteries, inner thresholds....and if you don't know what the guide signs are along the way you have to  work it out for yourselves....Myths are clues to the spiritual potentialities of the human life.

(Ok here's challenge #1 today: YOU transcribe what he's saying, as he's telling it to Bill Moyers,  I dare you! hahahaa) I feel like a court reporter who will be fired after 15 minutes. hahaaa

I was not familiar with Joseph Campbell, I'm going to watch the series and see what he has to say about, if anything, the mythology we're talking about here.

One point he does make is it's not so much the seeking, man seeking the myth,  as the experience that makes a myth valuable.

That seems to fit in with the Romans and their insistence almost superstition on ritual long after whatever god had been forgotten. Kind of reminds me of the Pearl Buck books, after a boy was born the parents ran about saying oh misfortune, oh awful, so whatever capricious gods might be listening might not take jealous vengeance, (like the Arachne story in ancient Greek mythology, giving us Arachnida for spiders, I love that story). Just don't say you're better than the gods. Heck how many people in history have found that out with kings? Thomas Wolsey and Hampton Court  and Nicolas Fouquet and his Vaux-le-Vicomte are prime examples. I mean when you outshine Henry VIII and Louis the Sun King, you really need to put the brakes on it.

So there ancient mythology repeats itself in many cultures. I think I'd like to take a closer look at the subject in general, thank you Kidsal!

[ginny]

Frybabe, (Margie) that is so interesting about Pythagoras. That's quite interesting: One of the points the book makes is that what we know as the Pythagora's Theorum was actually in use in Mesopotamia a thousand years before Pythagoras came along. And the secret mysterious society, I heard an interesting lecture once at a convention on the Persephone myth, how it predates the Greeks and is in several other cultures, some quite strange, all dealing with the seasons and rebirth.

Rebirth or the rituals associated with it I have a feeling is going to be a theme here.

It's surprising to many to learn that worship of the god Serapis, (who was made up to combine Egyptian and Greek mythology by Ptolemy I) which was popular with the Romans contained resurrection, but not in the way we think of it.


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 Andrea, enjoy the beach!! We'll miss you but I know you are fomenting tons of thoughts for the discussion!

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Stephanie, two great points!  You mentioned she seems to feel that something got left out for her.



What a good point, I missed that. Now that alone would be a powerful motivation, to me. That and constantly being told you're just like your mother (who drowned). How would one react to that daily? I don't think people drown on purpose, do they?  Of course there's Virginia Woolf. I need to reread that bit.

And then this, the other Elephant in the Living Room: but have never been shot and that may change how you look at things.

You're right, I have not either. Has anybody here been shot? I am not sure how it would make you feel, I know my recent broken leg has brought up a LOT of strange little unworthy thoughts I did not know were there.

The SHOOTING is another Elephant in the Living Room here. I was shocked, never saw it coming but in our day it seems to be in the news daily. When you read a book tho, you (do you?) tend to imbue it with your own persona, I doubt any of us have shot anybody. Or even thought about it.

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And bellamarie brought up abandonment. I did not see that and you're right, it's all OVER the thing. Many many themes, such an innocent looking fast reading book. Many many themes. Well worth the discussion (and some books are not!)

Bellamarie said: Elgin critiquing her thesis..... "You've romanticized your subject," Elgin had commented on the first draft of my thesis, in which I argued that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists. "And over identified with them."

Ok now I am beginning to see what you all are saying.  I don't understand his point here, surely anybody would be interested in this rare court case which has been preserved and which nobody knows the outcome of? He's coming across here as an unfeeling chauvinist.

Right? or?

I love that question for Carol, Marcie, and since I can't figure out the answer to her answer I must ask:

Carol: What do you mean in reference to Sophie's cutting the grass after her recovery, "Sophie’s not supernatural, she’s just a TEXAN!" What is a TEXAN for those of us who have only ridden thru once or twice or been to Riverwalk?

[bellamarie]

Okay so I had to leave abruptly earlier and did not finish my thoughts, and I just typed them and lost everything.  grrr
Anyway, where I was going is this....Sophie says, "that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists."  Sophie certainly sees herself as a modern day feminist.

The only reason Sophie accepted to go to Italy, IMO, is to find proof Iusta died a freed woman.  It is important that this be the case, because Sophie identifies herself to Iusta.  If Sophie can find the proof in the scrolls, she indeed died a freed woman, then she too will finally be free of  all the wrong doings in the past of her mother, grandparents and herself that she assumes, because she takes on the responsibility of those past actions.  When Elgin said, Sophie romanticized in her thesis, this gives me the insight, that in the end, Sophie wants to find her happiness and freedom, (possibly with Ely), just as Iusta would have died a happy, free woman.

The definition of feminist is....one who advocates equal rights for women.

So now, I am more certain than ever, the theme I am following.....is about the history of how men have mistreated women through out the ages, and Sophie's mission in life is to right the wrongs, through her thesis on Iusta.  I can't wait to see how she is going to accomplish this mission.  I too feel we have not seen the last of Ely.  The romantic person I am, wants to see Ely free and the two of them together.  hmmmmm  Probably NOT!

[ginny]

We've got a lot of themes here. We've got the plot over all and then the different themes seem to be informing the plot (or is it the other way around?) I'm trying to sort of do an outline of the plot (I hate outlines) but there are some things I can't fit in.


Can you shed any light on these?

-----What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What is her function? What about her appearance in hallucination with her son?

-------
" Yes. I've decided, yes." (page 87). Why did Sophie decide to go on the dig? I think this is very important, but I don't know the answer.

-----What did you take away from this first section? (The "Take Away" Question.)

I like the crow episode on page 78-79. A crow flies into the window and dies. Psychopomp is explained (there's also a crow in the Slonimsky Pythagoras in Love).  

Have you ever heard that a bird flying into a window and dying means a death is coming to whoever is in the house?  I have. We have a lot of glass here and we'd have been dead a long time if that were the case, but  Sophie, because she knows this superstition and she knows the myth and she's thinking myth all the time,  is thinking along the lines of the definition: "messengers sent to lead the soul into the underworld."

She says (page 79), I find it hard to dismiss the totally irrational thought that the crow, along with the book, is another calling card from Ely.

----Ok so what is she thinking here? If  Ely sends a psychopomp in the form of a crow, then....?

I hate crows, they are the nastiest bird there is. Did you know they eat meat? Horrid things.

-----Who do you think the figure was outside her door on page 87?


-----We've had one good answer to this one, what's YOURS? What do you think is the most important thing to Sophie?

----What does the last sentence in this section mean? "We've come, I think, to the island of the Sirens."

The heading is getting very long, I'll just leave these here and trust you can see them.


What would YOU like to talk about today? I really would have missed half of these perspectives had you not voiced them!


Oh and I just saw another parallel too, on page 98 to  how "many of the residents of Herculaneum died, choking on the poisonous gas let loose in the eruption." So there's yet another reference to breathing and lungs, paralleled in the past.

[ginny]

Oh what good thoughts, Bellamarie. So you see Sophie as a feminist, with this definition: The definition of feminist is....one who advocates equal rights for women.

What do the rest of you think? Do you think  that "Sophie
sees herself as a modern day feminist?"

What an interesting question. I think my own definition of feminist may need some adjustment...I would have thought a feminist would....I need to think about this. Something in her behavior with  Ely  might cause me not to think this. What do you all think?

[bellamarie]

Ginny...speaking of Elgin's remarks of Sophie romaticizing in her thesis..."He's coming across here as an unfeeling chauvinist."

I didn't see it that way Ginny, but I can see it now.  I saw Elgin, as an objective opinion in his field.  But your observation, for me, falls yet again in line with males not respecting females.  Elgin of all people, who uses women for his own selfish pleasures.  Why does Sophie care about his opinion, and give his words so much weight? 

Ciao for now..........

[Gumtree]

Bellamarie said: Elgin critiquing her thesis..... "You've romanticized your subject," Elgin had commented on the first draft of my thesis, in which I argued that Vitalis and Iusta represented early feminists. "And over identified with them."

Ok now I am beginning to see what you all are saying.  I don't understand his point here, surely anybody would be interested in this rare court case which has been preserved and which nobody knows the outcome of? He's coming across here as an unfeeling chauvinist.

Right? or?

Ginny: Can't agree that Elgin comes across here 'as an unfeeling chauvinist '- even if he was raised on a pig farm.  I read that passage as showing Elgin as being a good teacher and in his 'teacher' mode trying to goad his student Sophie into becoming more objective in her work and not to identify so closely with her subject.

And is there a parallel there -Teacher/student  Elgin/Sophie and Sophie/Agnes. Both Elgin and Sophie as teachers want the best outcome for their student.

I really related to the lawn mowing episode  - you just do it! And as for the comment about being a Texan - I thought that was rather like being an Aussie  

[ginny]

Oh GOOD points as always, Gum!

So there you are readers, what do YOU think? Do you think Elgin as being a good teacher and in his 'teacher' mode trying to goad his student Sophie into becoming more objective in her work and not to identify so closely with her subject. in the incident of his telling Sophie that she had over identified with the subject?

I think this one is something we need to hear from everybody on. I'd have thought personally he'd have turned cartwheels at the subject!

What do YOU think? This is great!

Gum! Aussie? I know you are Australian.  What's an Aussie? I really related to the lawn mowing episode  - you just do it! And as for the comment about being a Texan - I thought that was rather like being an Aussie

Let's do look at stereotypes!  I'm reading The Big Rich which paints "Texans" in a pretty poor light, quite a few of them. I have been there, and have driven all over it several times, stayed in the incomparable  Riverwalk in  San Antonio. I love the vast spaces. I've not been to Australia at all.

What do WE think of when we think of TEXANS? Come on, be honest?

JR Ewing and the Dallas TV Show?
Cowboys and oil?
Big hair and loud voices in the airport?

uh....

I have almost shot my wad here. What do the rest of you think?

As for Aussies, what do you all think characterizes those in the Land Down Under?

I think Independence and possibly a free-ish spirit about things.
No worries, mate.

How close is that?

What are the stereotypes about Texans and Australians? How many are real?

Storms here, we have a ton of great things to bounce off of, till the weather passes, OR suggest your own!

[marcie]

Gumtree, I am thinking along your lines that Elgin isn't necessarily a chauvinist when he tells Sophie that she has romanticized the subjects and is over identified with them. She does seem to have put a lot of herself into the story of the slave girl. He gave her an A+ on her paper and encouraged her to write her thesis on it and now wants her to be on the project with him. I don't think he means to discourage her but wants her to keep perspective.

Elgin definitely has a following of women students but there were also male students who wanted to be part of the project and were being interviewed. He is characterized as "Professor Romeo" by Odette and he definitely seems to have charisma and is attractive to women and seems to be attracted by Sophie, at least.

[Gumtree]

  In A Concise History of Mathematics Dirk J. Struik says:

As to Pythagoras' theorem, the Pythagoreans ascribed its discovery to their master, who was supposed to have sacrificed a hundred oxen to the gods as a token of gratitude. We have seen that the theorem was already known in Hammurabi's Babylon, but the first general proof may very well have been obtained in the Pythagorean school. Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem.

Frybabe Your comment about the Pythagorean Theorem being known in earlier times is very true but it is important to remember that the first general proof is held to be Pythagorean. I think the most significant aspect lies in the last sentence from  the quote above:

Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem

To take the problem from practical mensuration to an abstract theory represents a major intellectual leap.


The Pythagorean Sect had many many members  who all attributed their work to Pythagoras himself - some say the greatest was Architus. . Sect members all worked under the name of Pythagoras which may account for the enormous versatility of work attributed to him.

Among their other discoveries the P. Sect were the first to establish a scale for music which was based on simple ratios but because of the simple ratios  was limited as to pitch. This raises the question of the Gregorian Chant  which has  a limited range, and whether it uses the Pythagorean scale.  The musical range today is a modified or tempered version of a exponential scale eg. J.S. Bach's Well Tempered Clavier of 48 compositions demonstrates the effectiveness of his tempered exponential scale.

[marcie]

I agree with those of you who see "filling a hole in oneself/becoming whole" as one of the main themes in the book so far. What steps do the people who have holes, or an emptiness, take to try to fill the void?

Some instances....

Sophie and Ely both have holes from the losses when they were 10 of Sophie's mother and Ely's brother, Paul.  "There was a shallow depression in the center [of Paul's bed] the shape and size a thirteen-year-old boy would have made scrunched up into a fetal position."

Sophie and Ely both lost their baby and  Sophie now has another actual hole, in her chest, from the gunshot. In the hospital with the gunshot wound she thinks back to the previous time she was in the hospital when she lost her baby. "The hollowness I feel in my chest now feels like the hollowness I felt then."

Sophie asks the bookstore clerk, Charles "What did Dale Henry use to fill his emptiness?"
'He used a big gun,' Charles says...."

[Frybabe]

Where the Babylonians saw it primarily as an achievement in mensuration, the Pythagoreans conceived it as an abstract geometrical theorem

Perhaps I should have included that Gum. It was late and I wasn't up to an extensive comment.  Yes, the first PROOF has been attributed to Pythagoras. The Egyptians and Mesopotamians didn't indulge much in theory and abstractions, only in math that had a practical application in the immediate sense.

I didn't know about the musical scale. Most interesting. Now that will lead me to hunt out a history of early music notation and development.

[bellamarie]

Okay Ginny, sorry,  I do have to go with my first instincts, and say I saw Elgin's critique as an objective opinion, and chauvinist never entered my thoughts.  If I did not pay attention to the "Romeo" description of Elgin, I personally had respect for the fact he was heading up the Papyrus Project, and I would have been one of the first in line to go with him.  I did see his critique, as him wanting to have Sophie think and write objectively, rather than emotionally.

But...........I will stand by my theory, that if others see his words chauvinistic, then it holds with the men/women disrespect and mistreatment.  That remains in the theme, regardless of how Elgin's critique is meant to be.

As for my opinion of Elgin, if I don't personalize it, I see him as a well educated, prestigious professor, and an asset to the university.  Now he may just show me wrong in this dig.  As I said before...the men in this book seem to be well educated,  but lack in emotions and attachments. 

I posted the Plato theory the other day, referring to the Pythagorean theory of "God created everything through geometry."  That hurt my head and will defer to others posting for further ideas.  I'm sensing it wants to lead us to the evolution of man, and I'm not comfortable going there just yet, especially if it involves cults.  I'll stick to the romance and mystery.  lolol

Ciao for now......

[winsummm]

sophie goes because among other things she is interested in the new imaging techni

[bellamarie]

I'm not so sure Sophie is interested in the new imaging technology for any other reason, than it will give her the answers she is looking for in the scrolls.  If Elgin had not showed her how the new technology can actulally read what is on the scrolls, I'm not convinced she would have gone.  IMO her main focus is finding out if Iusta was freed before she died.  Elgin knew he had to convince her, they could read the scrolls.  She not only wants to complete her thesis, she identifies with Iusta and wants to feel she too will be free of her demons of the past, so to speak.

[catbrown]

Hmm, have we thought about why Elgin might want Sophie on the project? What role is she supposed to play? What's her function? As far as I can see, completely unclear, perhaps even to Sophie and Elgin. At least, it's never explained to us.

I'm assuming here that when someone is not a student (which, of course, Sophie isn't) to be funded on a project like this you have to have a defined expertise and contribution to the project.

Hmm .....

[Deems]

OK, I'll take the geometry question (#4) above.  There are two number associations mentioned.  First, the triangle composed of ten dots.  This fascinated Pythagoras because if you take 1,2,3, and 4 and add them together, you get 10.

Not that exciting, but P. liked it.  The triangle those dots, 1 dot then 2 then 3 then 4 forms is an isosceles triangle--remember those?  All the angles are equal (60 degrees) as are the sides.

Second part, the 3,4,5 sequence.  Here we get the Pythagorean theory that tells us that if you have a right triangle, with the short sides with lengths of 3 and 4 and the hypotenuse with a length of 5, then the square of the hypotenuse (25) equals the squares of the other two sides (9 and 16) added together.  This is the ever-so-useful-in-building triangle that the residents of Mesopotamia used but never abstracted.

I loved geometry.  Math only lost me when I got to Calculus II in college.