Author Topic: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online  (Read 64452 times)

mrssherlock

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2010, 12:55:27 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.




 "Remember that I am thy creature; I ought to be thy Adam, but I am rather the fallen angel, whom thou drivest from joy for no misdeed."
Frankenstein
 by Mary Shelley

Frankenstein is a story many of us think we know but actually don't. Very few films have followed the novel very closely. The monster of the book is intelligent and soft-spoken. The themes are timeless and full of conflict. Join us as we read this fantastic story, created by 19-year old Mary Shelley, and share your thoughts about its characters and meanings.

Reading Schedule (dated version of book--1818 or 1831-- precedes chapter breakdown):

July 1-6:  (1818) Vol I, Letters, Chapters 1-5
               (1831) Letters, Chapters 1-6
Last sentence: "My own spirits were high, and I bounded along with feelings of unbridled joy and hilarity."

July 7-12:  (1818) Vol I, Ch 6-7, Vol II, Ch 1-4
                 (1831) Ch 7-12
Last sentence: "......and the future gilded by bright rays of hope and anticipation of joy."

July 13-18:  (1818) Vol II, Ch 5-9, Vol III, Ch 1-2
                 (1831) Ch 13-19
Last sentence: "..... forebodings of evil that made my heart sicken in my bosom."

July 19-24:  (1818) Vol III Ch 3-7, Letters
                 (1831) Ch 20-24, Letters

July 26-31:  Thoughts on anything in the book and film versions

Previous discussion questions and links

Questions for July 26-31:

Thoughts on anything in the book and film versions.


Discussion Leaders: PatH and marcie
 

Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

mrssherlock

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2010, 12:59:56 PM »
Good news for me, my library has Priestley's book as well as his Literature and Western Man which I couldn't resist ordering also.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2010, 03:34:30 PM »
Jackie, that occurred to me too - do you suppose that by her portrayal of these women, Mary Shelley was actually commenting indirectly on their lot - early deaths, suicides, etc.?

An interesting observation on the fact that Dr. Frankenstein gave no name to his creation, Traudee.  Do you think it would have been different had the creature been a pleasant-looking, affable fellow?  Even that cloned sheep was given a name - Dolly wasn't it?
Babi - Dr. F's worsening alienation left no one aware of his need for intervention.  He was so completely alone.  Maybe someone from the faculty could have checked up on him, at least to check on the progress of his research.  His family seemed to be sitting home in wait for a letter from him. He really was completely isolated with  his creation.  I wonder too why he didn't apply the principle of life he had discovered to another body or animal that had died. Wouldn't he have accomplished the same goal?

We meet  Dr. F  in the isolated land of ice and snow -  in pursuit of his creation - obviously wishing to destroy it.  I know I sound like a broken record, but why did Mary Shelley write of that smile?  Didn't it signify that the creature recognized Dr.F as his creator - as his mother in a sense?  And yet Dr. F is disgusted with the sight of his own "child." ( It strikes me that the world knows the creature by the name of "Frankenstein" - as if this is his surname.
 What does this tell us about Dr. F - I see the question in the header.  I guess it shows that Dr. F regards this creature strictly as a scientific experiment.  He was not trunk to create a friend to keep him company.  Also, it shows his lack of foresightedness.  He hadn't planned what to do with his creature if he succeeded with the experiment.

JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2010, 03:43:12 PM »
Speaking of science, I was startled to find the book starting with polar exploration, and specifically with an attempt to find a "Northeast Passage", as opposed to the better known "Northwest passage." I did a little checking.

Apparently, Arctic exploration goes back as far as the ancient Greeks. But in Shelley's time, the main efforts were to find a way to get from the northernAtlantic to the Pacific Ocean without going all the way around either Africa or South America. The Northwest Passage would go through North America. But when Cabot failed at that attempt, there were a number of attempts to find a "Northeast" passage across the top of Russia.

Of interest to us was an expedition leaded by John Ross, that was organized in 1818. The news must have been full of this at that time, and it presumably was Shelley's inspiration. Ross was looking for a NorthWEST passage, but that wouldn't have suited the plot at all-- They had to have been going in Russia to make it plausible that Victor and the creature could have gotten there.

(Wickepedia Arctic exploration, John Ross)
 

Babi

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2010, 08:26:05 AM »
 
Quote
I wonder too why he didn't apply the principle of life he had discovered to another body
 or animal that had died. Wouldn't he have accomplished the same goal?
 
 I'm finding a number of things as I read, JOAN, that raise similar questions. Choices or
actions that don't really make much practical sense. I suspect that the author opted for
those things that would increase the level of horror.
  Victor's reaction to his creation not only shows lack of forethought, it was also an act of
shameful irresponsibility. I could understand an initial reaction of shock and horror. But
it was criminal, imo, to abandon his creature with no thought for it's needs or for possible
danger to the general public.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2010, 12:43:30 PM »
  Victor's reaction to his creation not only shows lack of forethought, it was also an act of
shameful irresponsibility. I could understand an initial reaction of shock and horror. But
it was criminal, imo, to abandon his creature with no thought for it's needs or for possible
danger to the general public.
IMO too, Babi.  His friends are very admiring of Victor, but he's a real moral coward when it comes to facing up to consequences of his actions.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2010, 05:07:00 PM »
Babi and Pat, it does seem that Victor was trying to avoid his own emotional horror at any cost. He kept his friends and family in the dark about what he had done and didn't seem to think that the creature he created had feelings or intelligence, even though his goal seemed to be to create a fully functioning man. The exterior of the creature was all that Victor could see.

Victor was raised to be thoughtful of others. It seems out of character of his upbringing for Victor to actively avoid his creation completely. Of course, we wouldn't have the story unless Victor responds in this way.

I found the following on a site about music in the romantic period but the site says that it applies to all of the arts. This was the atmosphere in which Mary Shelley was writing:
 "Romanticism's response to Classicism was a more radical kind of expression, seeking out the new, the curious, and the adventurous. Romanticism is characterized by restless seeking and impulsive reaction. Romantic art differs from classic art by its greater emphasis on the qualities of remoteness and strangeness. A fundamental trait of Romanticism is boundlessness. Throughout the Romantic period, the human mind was peculiarly attracted by disproportionate and excessive features." http://www.aug.edu/~cshotwel/4350.Romantictraits.html

There is more about the romantic period at http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/lecture16a.html written by Professor Steven Kreis.
He describes the following traits of the romantics that would have influenced Mary Shelley in her writing:


" Intuition was equated with that which men feel strongly. Men could learn by experiment or by logical process—but men could learn more in intuitive flashes and feelings, by learning to trust their instincts. The Romantics distrusted calculation and stressed the limitations of scientific knowledge. The rationality of science fails to apprehend the variety and fullness of reality. Rational analysis destroys the naïve experience of the stream of sensations and in this violation, leads men into error."

"The Romantics did not merely say that there were irrational ways of intuiting reality. They rejected materialism and utilitarianism as types of personal behavior and as philosophies. They sought regeneration -- a regeneration we can liken to that of the medieval heretic or saint. They favored selfless enthusiasm, an enthusiasm which was an expression of faith and not as the product of utilitarian calculation. Emotion -- unbridled emotion -- was celebrated irrespective of its consequences. "

It seems, according to the above writer, that analytical, "calculating" thinking was perceived to be inferiority likely to produce negative results-- as opposed to what they thought was the more "natural" state of individuals intuiting the world with all of their emotions. It may be a reaction to mechanical view of the world epitomized by Isaac Newton in the previous century. Both Walton and Frankenstein are described as loving the wondrous aspects of scientific exploration. It sounds like some aspects of science were actively deplored. Maybe some of you who have the background in science--or history of science-- that I don't have, would have some comments about what Mary Shelley might have been trying to portray in relation to science.

JoanK, I didn't pick up on the significance of the idea that Walton was looking for a "Northeast Passage" as opposed to the Northwest passage. Thanks for pointing that out.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #47 on: July 04, 2010, 05:59:44 PM »
I just found a relatively new book (2008 or 2009) called the Age of Wonder: How the Romantic Generation Discovered the Beauty and Terror of Science by Richard Holmes. I'm 32 in line at my library :-(

A review of the book quotes the author as having a different view of science in the Romantic period: "Though Romanticism, as Holmes says, is often presumed to be “hostile to science,” the Romantic poets seem to have been positively giddy — sometimes literally so — with scientific enthusiasm." http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/books/review/Benfey-t.html

Here is some info about Richard Holmes: http://www.contemporarywriters.com/authors/?p=auth119

Ella Gibbons

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2010, 06:38:36 PM »
MARCIE, I'm not sure of which chapter it is in, but VF's father disapproved of Victor's reading material telling him it was "trash" and later one of his first professors at the University said something similar about the subjects that he had read.  As you stated, many people during this romantic period of history believed they could learn more by intuition, or emotions, than by science.  

As BABI commented Victor gave little, if any, forethought to the needs of his creature after it was given life, but we are told of VF's surprise when it happened, when the creature smiled at him.  Did he actually believe he could accomplish this life giving force, even though that was a goal he was striving to accomplish?

Close friendships are described in the book; Victor's father's close attachment to a fellow by the name of Beaufort, Victor's friendship with the adopted Elizabeth and later Victor's friendship with his professor Waldman.  These friendships lead us,the readers, to believe that Victor should have become a friend to his creation, not so.  

Which, the abandoned creature, or its creator deserves our sympathy?  Both or neither, I say.  It should not have happened, thank goodness, it is just a story.

 



PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2010, 09:16:35 PM »
Ella, lots of good points.

  The reaction of Victor's father doesn't tell us whether he disapproved of science, and suggests he had some scientific knowledge.  His basis for disapproval was that Paracelsus and Agrippa were outdated, which was quite true.  Paracelsus, a Swiss alchemist born in 1493, was groundbreakingly progressive for his time, especially in medicine, but chemistry had moved on a lot by 1800, though I'm less sure about medicine.  I don't know anything about Agrippa, but the footnote in my book suggests he was mostly an occultist and magician, not a scientist.  Certainly the science professors wouldn't approve of them.

I, too was struck by the close, male-bonding type of friendships.  There is also Walton's longing for a friend, and Victor and Clerval.  Perhaps the intellectual isolation mentioned by several of us lead to strong feelings when a man did find someone who seemed to be on the same wavelength.

Who deserves our sympathy?  This problem gets even more acute as the plot unfolds.

bellemere

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2010, 07:54:02 AM »
Victor did not dare tell anyone about his work.  It flew in the face of established religion.  Shelley himself was expelled from Oxford for publicly declarig his atheism. 
The term "natural philosophy" was the earliest name for what we call science today.  (I am also waiting for "Age of Wonder" at my library)  Mary appare;ntly had a knowledge of some of the latest discoveries, even without formal education. 
To me, the most inconsistent part of the story is Victor's total lack of curiousity when he returns home to find the creature gone.  All he feels is relief.  Did he hope that ;maybe the creature had crawled off and died somewhere? 

JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2010, 08:47:43 AM »
Bellemere, I've been thinking about Victor's reaction to his his creation too.  It was not at all what I'd consider a scientist's reaction to an experiment, was it?  How should he have reacted?  What should he have done?  Notified the authorities, his teachers?  Someone?  Perhaps his reaction was one of shock - that makes sense to me.  First he goes to his bed, tries to sleep it off.  Then he leaves his flat - in an attempt to avoid what he has seen. But the enormity of what he has been able to do - that doesn't seem to have any impact on him at all.


Quote
"The term "natural philosophy" was the earliest name for what we call science today." Bellemere
[/b]
Where did Victor go wrong?  He wants nothing more than to be a man of science.  He follows the advice of a teacher he admires - "if he wishes to become a man of science, not merely a petty experimentalist, he must study every branch of natural philosophy, inculdeing math."  Well he followed that advice - we're told that after two years, he has "learned everything" ;D - I find that pretty funny - until he suddenly realizes the secret of transmitting life.  Hmmm...has be become a "petty experimentalist"  after all?

 I've never read this book, haven't read beyond Chapter V - nor do I remember anything more about the Frankenstein movies, except that a diabolical scientist created this monster in a lab - which turned out to be a danger to society. 

I don't see Victor as this diabolical scientist - he seems to have had good intentions in his quest for truth.  He wasn't a bad person.  When Walton rescued him, he found qualities in Victor that no other man possessed -   He found him "gentle,  wise and culitivated."  And yet Victor tells Walton that he "cannot ever begin his life anew."  He is still a young man in his twenties, isn't he? PatH - right now I guess my sympathy goes to Victor Frankenstein - though I have strong feelings for that poor creature with the little grin on his face, who never asked to be born.  Must I pick one or the other?

Babi

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2010, 09:02:06 AM »
  Thanks for that description of Romanticism, MARCIE. It does fit Mary Shelley's writing
perfectly. Remote, strange, impulsive reactions.  It seems a bit odd that much as I enjoy
sci/fi & fantasy, I as repelled by this book.  If not for this discussion, I wouldn't be
reading this book at all.

  It appears that ‘chemistry’ was a very different ‘philosophy’ in it’s early days than it
does now. [Philosophical attempts to explain the nature of matter and its transformations
failed. The protoscience, Alchemy, was also unsuccessful in explaining the nature of matter,
but by performing experiments and recording the results the alchemist set the stage for modern
chemistry,] Wikipedia


  Consider M. Waldman, a most sensible and gifted instructor.  I like his advice, though it seems unworkable in  this modern day of  immense scientific material and the necessity for specialization.  Still, if one doesn’t want to end with a one subject mentality,  it still has merit. “If your wish is to become really a man of science, and not merely a petty experimentalist, I should advise you to apply to every branch of natural philosophy, including mathematics.”
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2010, 09:23:30 AM »
Babi - I agree, Marcie's description of Romanticism does fit with Mary Shelley's writing - and even more understandable when considering that her husband and his circle of Romantic poets were constantly discussing these  ideas in her presence -with her.  

You were repelled by this story - I'm going to keep that in mind as I read further.  Right now I am curious  about where Mary Shelley is going with the book, her motivations and IF she is going to conclude with some sort of moral or warning about not fooling around with Mother Nature.

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2010, 10:08:18 AM »
Hi, bellemere, it's good to see you here.

We're all curious about Victor's reaction to the creature.  I think he's kind of like a hedgehog curling up into a ball and hoping all the bad stuff will go away.  He can't face it.

JoanP--must we pick one or the other?  Definitely not.  Ella has already opted for both or neither.

It's good to have the description of romanticism.  The book is certainly loaded with it.

Mippy

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2010, 10:36:32 AM »
Chemistry and alchemy have been mentioned, but I didn't pick up any mention of one of the main thrusts of alchemy:  turning base materials into gold.   Some alchemists were also looking for ways to achieve longevity and by extension, eternal life.  

Here's a link:  
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy

Reading into the sub-links, I was surprised to see Isaac Newton listed as an alchemist.  Apparently some verb outstanding scientists studied alchemy before they expanded into what we would call real science.
quot libros, quam breve tempus

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2010, 11:24:07 AM »
Thanks for the link, Mippy.  A person could lose herself all day following up all the links.  Some of alchemy remained valid in what we call real science, especially, techniques and apparatus.

I notice William Godwin and Percy Shelley are mentioned under alchemy in literature.

Frybabe

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2010, 08:03:46 PM »
I decided to look up on Google Maps some of the places mentioned in the book. I found a spectacular view of Geneva from Mont-Saleve, the escarpment that Victor saw the monster climb. I envisioned something a lot smaller that it really is. It is about 3,000 ft. high. It's almost to the French border and almost 4 miles (if I figured right) from the Lake. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saleve_vu_du_ciel.jpg  This photo is not the one I wanted. The one I wanted was closer to the edge shown here and looked down a little more rather than out. Oh well. If you look at the lake at the Geneva end, you will see a white thing sticking up. That is the Geneva Fountain: http://travel.webshots.com/photo/1312148183066719370tBAzuP

Frybabe

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2010, 08:51:49 PM »

I was looking for information about the University at Ingolstadt. I had difficulty finding a whole lot but I did find on page 407 of a travel guide a boxed article about why Mary Shelley picked Ingolstadt for her book (scroll down a little to see it).
http://books.google.com/books?id=38pxvHefrL0C&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=ingolstadt+anatomy+museum&source=bl&ots=ZjAmab7s55&sig=SEHVtNB-tmyLLwoAxfX0NOBAZhA&hl=en&ei=nXUyTLKIDcH-8Abov4nJCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBUQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=ingolstadt%20anatomy%20museum&f=false

Here are a few pix of the exterior of the restored Theater of  Anatomy.
 http://www.ingolstadt-tour.de/wDeutsch/ausflugsziele/004_medizin.shtml?navid=11

Dr. Eric T. Pengelley penned in his 1986 "A Traveler's Guide to History of Biology and Medicine"  this about the museum:
Quote
The Anatomy Theater of the University of Ingolstadt was built between 1723 - 1736, and it is the oldest north of the Alps. It was a major training place for medical doctors until 1800, when the university moved, and this magnificent building fell into private hands, eventually becoming a laundry! In 1930 it was rescued from complete decay, being purchased by the town of Ingolstadt, but it was not until 1969 that restoration was begun, with the subsequent establishment of a medical museum. In 1972 the University of Munich celebrated its 500th anniversary, and the following year the museum was opened. It is of interest to note that it is really the “brain child” of Dr. Heinz Goerke, a distinguished Munich physician, whose drive and dedication has created it in its present form.

The exterior part of the building is completely restored to its original form, and is most striking. At the back is a little courtyard garden, which was the original herb garden of the medical school. The historical displays are on two floors, arranged more or less chronologically, so that one gets a feeling for the whole historical development of medicine. Upon entering there are displays of Egyptian, Grecian and Roman medicine, and fascinating displays of “home medicine” in the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. The displays are not confined to cases of instruments, as is so commonly the case, but include large pieces of medical apparatus such as autoclaves, iron lungs, anaesthetic machines, etc., including the original sterilizer from the laboratory of Robert Koch (see Clausthal-Zellerfeld). The second floor is mainly devoted to military medicine, which has played such a large role in the development of medicine in general. This is a medical museum in a lovely setting, with rich collections and a uniqueness of character with which the visitor will not be disappointed.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2010, 10:04:26 PM »
What a lot of good information here today!

Bellemere, I think you have something in looking to society's mores at the time of Frankenstein or Mary Shelley to help interpret why Frankenstein didn't tell anyone about his work. You indicated that "it flew in the face of established religion."  

I am with all of you who are wondering how Frankenstein could just let his creation go. JoanP, I agree that shock -- and his ill mental and physical health following his obsessive work of two years-- must have played a part. I'm also questioning whether his society's class system played a role. It seems that poor, uneducated people were considered inferior. Perhaps some were considered less than human. Frankenstein's creation --with his horrific looks and inability to communicate-- and the fact that he was actually pieced together by Frankenstein, might have seemed not at all human, or at least not fully human, to his creator.

Does anyone see clues in the book, or from other historical resources, about how educated people in Frankenstein's or Shelley's society looked at others in "lower classes"?

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2010, 10:20:22 PM »
Ella, PatH, Babi and Mippy, you all bring up the state of the development of the sciences at the time. Frankenstein was caught up in alchemy and even Professor Waldman showed sympathy toward some of the alchemists. I am thinking that the place of science in her society, what scientists were doing, and how people viewed science, was part of what Mary Shelley was writing about. I'm going to keep watching for that thread as I read the rest of the book. Frybabe, I would think the above would also include the role of medicine which you bring up. Thank you for posting the links to those photos. I am not very good at translating the author's written descriptions of the various scenes into visuals. Those photos help a lot!

Bookjunky

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2010, 01:09:36 AM »
Something that strikes my attention if Victor's reaction to his creation and the utter prostration that resulted. The man lay for weeks in limbo being cared for by his friend. Was this one of the neurasthenic type of illnesses ascribed mainly to women in former times? Or something else? I have a hard time imagining someone staying in that state for that length of time. Or is it that our sensibilities have been so hardened by the crass, horrific things we are bombarded with day in and day out we no longer have the ability to have such strong reactions?

Babi

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2010, 08:46:03 AM »
 Good question, BOOKJUNKY.  I think there was a tendency, in those
days, to think that the upper classes were more sensitive and high-strung than the rough lower classes.  Having a breakdown, even in a
male, could be considered due to that highly aristocratic sensitivity.
   I was somewhat relieved to read this comment:
 "The time at length arrives, when grief is rather an indulgence than a necessity…."  At least we can hope Victor recognizes the
truth of that, even tho' he apparently can endlessly indulge in the belief
that he suffers more horribly than any of his victims.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

HaroldArnold

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2010, 09:42:39 AM »
I don't know what happened but Letter's #1 Through #4 have disappeared from my Digital Text stored on my Dell desktop disk.  Every thing else that was included in the download purchase is there but all 4 letters have vanished.  I have been continuing my reading of the thickening plot through the middle chapters

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2010, 11:09:54 AM »
Bookjunky and Babi, I agree that there seems to be a lot of "sensitive" reactions to events. I do think that Victor's two years working non-stop (barely eating and never doing anything other than working on his creation) finally caught up with him. He said during that time he felt he was going mad. So  his prolonged illness could be due to his extreme physical and mental deterioration.

Harold, that is very strange about the missing Letters. You can read them online at http://www.readprint.com/chapter-8549/Frankenstein-Mary-Wollstonecraft-Shelley

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2010, 03:23:01 PM »
Frybabe, that's a very useful link about the University of Ingolstadt.  It seems to have been an intellectual hotbed at the time, and medically and scientifically advanced.

From the boxed portion of your article:

"Shelley originally became aware of Ingolstadt because it was the founding place of a secret society called the Illuminati.  Its list of illustrious members included Goethe and Herder as well as Mary Shelley’s husband, Percy Bysshe Shelley."

I looked up the Illuminati--they seem to have been enlightened free-thinkers with political aims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illuminati

JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2010, 03:35:25 PM »
What wonderful pictures! I love the pretty colors that old buildings are painted in some of Europe (eg the yellow of the operating theater). I don't remember seeing them when I was in Geneva 40 years ago. They probably weren't there in Victor's time (?)

My main memory of Geneva is that I fell off a streetcar there. Lucky I wasn't killed.

Switzerland is the perfect setting for this story, containing a center of science at Ingolstadt and wild nature in the Alps.


JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2010, 03:44:33 PM »
We were talking about the Romantics. Reading ahead to next week's section, I was struck by how "Romantic" (in their sense) it is. Notice the place of emotions vs reason, and the attitudes toward nature. The literature is a reaction to the more formal "classiical" works that came before. In music, too, the "classical" style (Mozart) is replaced by the much more emotional Romantics (Beethovan, Brahms).

Maybe this is a more classical age. I find Shelley's emotionalism tooo much!


Ella Gibbons

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2010, 04:56:59 PM »
Those are beautiful pictures, isn't it marvelous how we can all see the same things, and share our views.  

HAROLD, you can read the text online.

Several of you have wondered why Victor abandoned his creation.  How else could the story continue?  Either Victor must have killed the monster or locked him a cage - or what?  


PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2010, 05:28:23 PM »
Several of you have wondered why Victor abandoned his creation.  How else could the story continue?  Either Victor must have killed the monster or locked him a cage - or what?  No, I think in order to write a horror story (or ghost story?), the author was wise to allow the monster freedom to roam and to frighten everyone.
Yes, but the better the author, the more plausible s/he makes it.


marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2010, 05:40:55 PM »
That's interesting about the Illuminati, PatH. I hadn't realized that the movement was founded in 1776 in Ingolstad. They are a key focus in Dan Brown's book "Angels and Demons."

Yikes, JoanK!  You fell off a streetcar in Geneva!? I agree with you that Switzerland is a perfect setting for this book. I also agree with you that the Romantic period is not for me. These stories that rely on melodramatic events and continual hand wringing and angst are a bit too much for modern sensibilities. But the story is very detailed and amazing, I think, to have been written by someone not 20 years of age. Ella, I think you're reminding us of the practical view. It's a story and it wouldn't be the story it is if certain things didn't happen. If we question too many things, it might be difficult to continue. I'll probably question them anyway but will try to suspend my disbelief  ;)

Frybabe

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2010, 06:41:04 PM »
As I start into the next section, I am struck at how much this story reminds me of something that Edgar Allen Poe, and perhaps, Nathaniel Hawthorne might have written. Both were part of the American Romantic movement. Poe is listed as Gothic and Hawthorne as "dark romanticism". Both often use psychological and moral self torture to propel their works along.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2010, 07:15:59 PM »
Frybabe, That's good that you bring up other authors that might fit in this genre. It would be interesting to compare similarities. I've read a number of Poe's stories but I've only read Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter.


Since most everyone seems to have finished the first section, we've put in the heading some questions for your consideration for the next section. Of course, please feel free to talk about any points that interest you. Pat and I are both very impressed with the attention to detail and breadth of topics that you all are sharing with the group. We look forward to more of your insights!

serenesheila

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2010, 09:15:03 PM »
As I was reading this section of our book, I grew more and more impressed with the fact that someone 16 years old wrote it.  Her writing style is a bit too flowery for my taste.  However, by chapter 5, I became more connected.  For the first few chapters, and the letters, I was almost ready to give up.  Now, I think that I am hooked.

I am amazed at how knowledgeable about medicine of that time, Mary was.  I wonder how far her education went?  Do any of you know?

Sheila

kidsal

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2010, 03:59:47 AM »
My book has a section which compares the two versions. In the 1818 Frankenstein, his father, Ernest and Elizabeth took the trip into the mountains after Justine's death.  Also, Elizabeth was not his cousin.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2010, 11:12:43 AM »
sheila, yes, I too am impressed with Mary's ability to write this novel at such an early age. The following site says that Mary was mostly self-educated: http://www.victorianweb.org/previctorian/mshelley/bio.html

"[After his wife died] William Godwin courted various women looking for a new mother for the two girls until he finally met Mary Jane Vial (better known as Clairmont) and married her on 21 December 1801. Mary Jane had two children, Charles and Jane, who later called herself Claire. Her stepmother did not encourage Mary Godwin's intellectual curiosity and did not bring her up according to her mother's principles. Mary never went to school, but was taught to read and write at home. Her father encouraged her to use her imagination, so she started "scribbling" at a very young age. He also gave her access to his extensive library of English authors. He allowed her to sit quietly in a corner and listen to his political, philosophical, scientific or literary discussions with his friends, among them the literary lions William Wordsworth, Charles and Mary Lamb, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and William Hazlitt. The only formal training Mary received came from a music master."

Kidsal, thanks for the comparison of the two editions.  I wonder why she made Elizabeth his cousin in the edited version?

HaroldArnold

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2010, 12:38:44 PM »
First, thank you Marcie for the link to the Letters.  I did want to read them again since after my initial reading at the beginning of the book it was difficult for me (the  reader) to understand their link to the plot as it develops through Chapters 1 and much of the remainder of the book.

Second I have wanted to add a final comment on regency society.  True it was a closed society with full participation requiring money, and social position; the latter element seems to have implied a certain amount of education.  Yet it was not entirely closed to new initiates.  There was a small but growing new class of people with money made through their ability in new industry including coal mining war industry, mechanized weaving shipping and foreign trade.  Though these new rich themselves may have lacked the social polish necessary for participation,   they tended to educate their children who were certainly acceptable.

In any case descent through a 16th century title was not a requirement for acceptance in regency society.  The requirement was the availability of money without having to spend too much time working for it, a degree of education, particularly wit and the ability to tell a funny story and engage in mature conversation, and the ability to relate to others in formal social situations.  Those of you interested in further reading on this society might try to find the out of print J.B. Priestly book, “The Prince of Pleasure and His Regency” that I have previously mentioned.  Also another particularly applicable title is “The 1826 Journal of John James Audubon.”  Though 1826 is post Regency this journal vividly describes how well Audubon was accepted by and related to the lifestyle of the rich untitled, educated society in 1826 Liverpool, Manchester, and Edinburgh.

JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2010, 04:19:03 PM »
"Ella, It's a story and it wouldn't be the story it is if certain things didn't happen. If we question too many things, it might be difficult to continue. I'll probably question them anyway but will try to suspend my disbelief".

Someone called that a "plot of stupidity". The plot only works if the characters behave stupidly.

But Victor seems to be carrying it beyond the needs of the plot. It's difficult not to become very impatient with him.

Clearly, Mary was a very intellegant woman. Upper class women in England received very little in the way of formal education, but they could READ. Of course, there were no public libraies; they were dependent on what their families and friends could collect in the way of private libraries, and the conversation of those in their circle.

Mary seems to be one of those who used her opportunities to the fullest. I am reminded of another, the poet Byron's only legitimate daughter, Lady Lovelace. She loved mathematics, but of course no one would allow a WOMAN to study such an unfeminine occupation. But she managed to study under some mathematicians of the day, and eventually apprenticed herself to Chasrles Babbage who was building the world's first computer. She was the first to realize that a computer was only as good as the programs written for it. She became the world's first computer programmer. Since Babbage never finished building his computer, she never got to debug it.   

HaroldArnold

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2010, 05:16:40 PM »
Click the following for the Wikedia  Articles of Charles Babbage and Ada Lovelace..  The Babbage machine that was never completed would have been a mechanical computer for calculating Mathematical tables accurately.  It would have been like the early 19th century mechanical adding machines/ calculators.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace 

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2010, 06:00:59 PM »
Harold, I appreciate the information about education and society's requirements and the references to Priestly's and Audobon's books. I love the links to Babbage and Lovelace too. JoanK, Thanks for bringing up Ada Lovelace. I read her book Ada Lovelace:Enchantree of Numbers some time ago and learned quite a bit about her.

You are right, JoanK, that we don't want stupid characters. In this second section of the book, Victor is trying my patience too. Despite that, Mary does seem to be an intelligent writer, especially as we know that she learned only from reading and speaking with other bright minds and had no formal training.