Poetry Page

[bellamarie]

Our Poetry Page Reads
Shakespeare Sonnets

2016 the world commemorates
400 years since the death of William Shakespeare.


April, 1616. A man died, but a legacy was born; one which proved
so essential not only to the development of
drama and literature, but to language, to thoughts and ideas.

A Sonnet a Day
July 1, till December 1,
We read in order, from 1 to 154
A Shakespeare Sonnet each day.

Welcome
Please share your comments about the day's Sonnet.

Discussion Leaders: Barb

 

[bellamarie]

Sonnet 117

Wow, Shakespeare is really feeling like he has done this young lover a grave misjustice in how he has been absent, when he should have been present.  It makes me wonder.... did the lover stray because of being neglected, or could this just be Shakespeare's imagination?  I just don't know, but this sonnet seems to hit me as real, as though it truly happened and he is realizing he has not given enough of himself to the relationship. 

My daughter and her husband were going through a patch in their marriage a few years ago, because he was so busy working and spending time with friends. There is a song by one of my favorite country artists, Vince Gill called "I Still Believe In You", I played it for the two of them, and I know it touched a spot in my son in law to make him realize, that you must take the time for each other.  Sometimes a sonnet, song, or scripture verse can open our eyes and hearts when nothing else seems to penetrate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baOz601--b0

Barb, what a perfect picture for this sonnet!  So, you too knew what it was like to fall in love and move away from your family, as did my daughter.  We always wish she could be closer, but we love her choice for our son in law, and he brought her even more closer to her love of God, so how can we deny them to live where they must?

Sonnet 118 

Oh boy!  Now he's done it!!  Admitting he cheated numerous times because he feared their relationship was too good to be true.  This seems like a continuation of the previous sonnets, self examining his sins of infidelity. 

Sonnet 119

 That better is by evil still made better;
And ruined love when it is built anew
Grows fairer than at first, more strong, far greater.
  So I return rebuked to my content,
  And gain by ills thrice more than I have spent.

I agree with his words, 

ruined love when it is built anew
Grows fairer than at first, more strong, far greater.

I have seen many relationships that have survived cheating, and gone on to last a lifetime.  Myself personally, I just don't know how I would be able to forgive my husband if he had ever been unfaithful to me.  Forgiveness, is a huge testament in scripture to help us Catholic/Christians (which Shakespeare was) in understanding why Jesus came to earth as man.  He came to teach us it is necessary to repent and forgive, so I guess for me, it would depend on the remorse and commitment, which it seems Shakespeare is trying to convey here.  Did it work?  From the previous sonnets I understood them to have parted.  So, where does this sonnet fit in the truth of their relationship?  Maybe we shall find out in the next sonnets to come..... 

[BarbStAubrey]

Sorry Bellamaire - thank goodness you had another post but I had to alter it and add to it what you originally had in the preceding post.

Since the upgrade we are all struggling with the headings and it would not allow me to enter the heading and in addition have lines seperating the heading from your post which is what we had been doing when we were not able to catch the first post of a new page before a post was entered.

If you notice the heading now does not even include some of the links we had earlier included - been working on this but it may have to be limited till they said another new upgrade is entered. Who knows how long before that happens.

OK need to read what your take is on these sonnets - did read how you celebrated your daughter's birthday and the special collection of photos and video tapes that was a remembrance of her life.  How special - really - you really aught to think about writing it up as letter or something to some of the monthly magazines and maybe the idea would be picked up and be made public - even if you do not get paid it would be sprinkling your special view of family life and your gift for seeing how to strengthen family ties that few see it as you do or make the time to put their memories together - you've been given a talent and I can think of nothing better than to share that blessing - really - it is as if you were graced with a unique gift and so why not share the grace.

[BarbStAubrey]

I've had lots of trauma to forgive - and the best I could do on some of it was simply remove myself - shut it all out and believe God would take care of it because it was beyond me - I could not even understand - the more I tried to wrap my head around it the more I could not even name the litany of pain - I was going crazy just trying to catch on as if trying to catch a moving train - till finally rather than fall off again and again trying so hard to understand what it was I was forgiving I finally hopped off and said - Go, God be with you because I cannot understand much less forgive - go, let God do it.

Of course than you have to deal with the heap that you are having crumbled on the ground and accept that you could not do what you thought and many others think you should be capable of doing. Then you have to put up with the years of slings and arrows of those who were hurt believing you should have been able to stop what was done. Sheesh -

As to those who can forgive and go on in a marriage - not sure how you have intimacy again with someone who so disrespected you in order to satisfy their own needs. Ah so and such is life... one thing I did learn is that as bad as your hurting you would still prefer to have your own pain and drama than the pain and drama of someone else's nightmare.

Back to the sonnets - have not really read them ahead - funny I read and hear them to prepare the heading but that is a different kind of reading - just to get the salient points so it can be depicted with a photo which is different than reading to make a contact or association with your own beliefs and values - and so frankly I cannot remember if we do learn what becomes of this scenario - my thinking is they are not all connected as if a story but then we shall see - certainly if nothing else it makes us think - just thinking about forgiveness is a biggie.

All of a sudden a thought crossed - these were written a bit over 400 years ago - which means folks have been having affairs bringing about a similar pain for hundreds of years - ever since intimacy became part of a relationship - not necessarily marriage since we know that marriage was more of a legal transaction rather than a love match till about the time of Shakespeare. And so I wonder what percentage of couples in all the world have experienced this kind of rejection and pain - hmm - sure takes individual pain and puts it into perspective.

[bellamarie]

Yes, Barb what I have realized in reading these sonnets that were written 400 years ago, nothing is different today where relationships are concerned. 

I'm sorry to hear you have had a lot to deal with.  Sometimes all you can do is take yourself out of the situation, to save yourself.  Having faith and trust in God is the only answer to get you through when it all seems to be falling apart.  I like this poem:


One night I dreamed a dream.
As I was walking along the beach with my Lord.
Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life.
For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand,
One belonging to me and one to my Lord.

After the last scene of my life flashed before me,
I looked back at the footprints in the sand.
I noticed that at many times along the path of my life,
especially at the very lowest and saddest times,
there was only one set of footprints.

This really troubled me, so I asked the Lord about it.
"Lord, you said once I decided to follow you,
You'd walk with me all the way.
But I noticed that during the saddest and most troublesome times of my life,
there was only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why, when I needed You the most, You would leave me."

He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you
Never, ever, during your trials and testings.
When you saw only one set of footprints,
It was then that I carried you."
By Mary Stevenson

footprints-inthe-sand.com/index.php?page=Poem/Poem.php

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXX

That you were once unkind, befriends me now, And for that sorrow, which I then did feel Needs must I under my transgression bow, Unless my nerves were brass or hammered steel. For if you were by my unkindness shaken, As I by yours, y' have pass'd a hell of time, And I, a tyrant, have no leisure taken To weigh how once I suffer'd in your crime. O, that our night of woe might have remember'd My deepest sense, how hard true sorrow hits, And soon to you, as you to me, then tendered The humble salve which wounded bosoms fits!    But that your trespass now becomes a fee;    Mine ransoms yours, and yours must ransom me.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 120
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7msKayfyoE

[bellamarie]

Sonnet 120

For if you were by my unkindness shaken,
As I by yours, y' have pass'd a hell of time,
And I, a tyrant, have no leisure taken
To weigh how once I suffer'd in your crime.


But that your trespass now becomes a fee;
   Mine ransoms yours, and yours must ransom me.

OUCH!!!!   Is this what they call justifying, the unjustifiable?  Shakespeare seems to be saying, if he would have only stopped to think how much pain his lover caused him with betraying him, maybe he would not have done the same.  Gosh, why does this make me a bit angry?  I have always taught myself and my children, to apologize and mean it, don't use an excuse or say, well so and so did it too.  When someone makes the clear choice to be unfaithful, in my humble not so psychologically educated opinion, they do it for their simple immediate self gratification, and lack of discipline or good judgement.  I'm pretty sure they don't take the time to ponder..... oh maybe this is going to hurt my lover/spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend, because I remember how it felt when they did it to me.  Or, maybe, just maybe the person who is choosing to cheat does in fact to it out of vengeful hurt.  I don't know, but I do know I really don't care for his morbid, victimized, self pity, half ass apologetic summary, in this sonnet.   

[BarbStAubrey]

This tit for tat is difficult to read - revenge does not sit well as a noble or honorable reason to get back at someone as immediately reacting out of hurt, despair or even humiliation. I guess that is it - a loss of control in retaliation is one thing but to justify your own bad behavior by saying it is the fault of another sounds too much like today those addicted to alcohol or drugs or even sex - they blame someone else as being the cause of their conduct. OUch is right Bellamarie - 

I guess the best light is he is not creating proverbs or a guide for behavior and for sure there are many stories and plays built around revenge - in fact isn't Hamlet all about his revenge against the king who took the place of Hamlet's father so quickly after his death and the question if the King actually killed the father - and then of course the anger at his mother who really, as a wife and women had little control over her life except through men. But then, even Hamlet does not blame either the King or his mother for his own behavior - could stretch it and say the ghost of his father urged Hamlet's behavior. But then Hamlet becomes real since he is so conflicted where as in this Sonnet there is no conflicted soul - only blame for his hurt feelings and his response is to hurt back in the same manner he was hurt. Or, if he slipped and had an affair, then felt remorse, he could not own his choice and so he blames.

We do agree Bellamarie that forgiveness is not easy but this poem also seems to be showing us how taking ownership of our bad behavior is also not easy - something to ponder for sure. 

Thanks for your prayer poem Bellamarie - as the song goes, 'I never promised you a rose garden' which is about how I look at my spiritual God.

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXI

'Tis better to be vile, than vile esteemed, When not to be, receives reproach of being, And the just pleasure lost which is so deemed Not by our feeling, but by others' seeing: For why should others' false adulterate eyes Give salutation to my sportive blood? Or on my frailties why are frailer spies, Which in their wills count bad what I think good? No; -- I am that I am, and they that level At my abuses reckon up their own: I may be straight, though they themselves be bevel; By their rank thoughts my deeds must not be shown;    Unless this general evil they maintain,    All men are bad, and in their badness reign.

Shakespeare Sonnet 121
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O3u9woJCSQ

[PatH]

Hi, I'm back.  I've been playing catch up for the last week, lurking and reading, and am almost up to here.  So I'll comment along, and fill in with a few remarks about older poems.

But first I want to second Bellamarie's very wise advice about not feeling guilty about lapses in a new exercise program.  I've found the same thing.  You have to take each day as a new start.  Never mind if you missed yesterday, today is a new day.  No reproaches--they kill your resolve.  Just start again.

[PatH]

This is a tough one.  I had to read it six times to make sense of it.  Here's my best guess.  He is sinning in a small way, which he feels is justified because it's his nature, gives him great pleasure, and is only minor bad behavior.  So he's not going to put up with being judged by these others, who are much worse sinners.  They are so much worse, they have no right to criticize him.

I don't agree; we none of us have the right to judge others, only to understand them, but we also can't excuse our own behavior by saying others are worse.  We have to compare ourselves to whatever inner truth we hold.

On a frivolous note: now at last I know the origin of one of my favorite quotes from my childhood.

Shakespeare: "I am that I am".

Popeye: "I yam what I yam".

 

[bellamarie]

Welcome back PatH.,  Always good to see your views on these twisted sonnets.

Sonnet 121

'Tis better to be vile, than vile esteemed,
When not to be, receives reproach of being,
And the just pleasure lost which is so deemed

Hmmm.....  so Shakespeare thinks since people are going to judge you as vile, you may just as well go ahead and be vile and get the pleasure from being vile.  Where in his thought process does he find pleasure in being vile, regardless if someone thinks you are, or you actually are?  Vile is vile... 
vile

adjective
extremely unpleasant.
"he has a vile temper"
synonyms:   foul, nasty, unpleasant, bad, disagreeable, horrid, horrible, dreadful, abominable, atrocious, offensive, obnoxious, odious, unsavory, repulsive, disgusting, distasteful, loathsome, hateful, nauseating, sickening; More
morally bad; wicked.
"as vile a rogue as ever lived"
archaic
of little worth or value.

Then he goes on to say:

I may be straight, though they themselves be bevel;
By their rank thoughts my deeds must not be shown;
   Unless this general evil they maintain,
   All men are bad, and in their badness reign.
Am I understanding he is thinking his wrongs are not wrongs, unless they think all men are bad? 

I think dear Shakespeare is not wanting to admit to his vile, wrong doings, so he tells himself,  "Judge not, lest ye be judged." (Matthew 7:1-2)  He truly needs to be looking at himself, and not what others have or have not done, or are thinking, or judging him for.  His sins and unfaithfulness, are just that, HIS, not skewed by any other person's standards.  I'm not particularly liking him in these last few sonnets. 

[BarbStAubrey]

So glad to see you catching up Pat - it is difficult isn't it to follow more than one intense read and this months Book Club read is emotionally demanding as well as intent.

Both you and Bellamarie see this Sonnet as more of a man acting for others rather than living a life of integrity - playing devil's advocate here I wonder if it becomes a habit to measure himself by the gossip since it is the public's approval he needed in order to earn his living - I have a feeling it is more than simply the play produced but the fact it was a Shakespeare play a certain level of behavior was expected from the author - he could be bawdy to a degree but had to be a respectable business man.

It seemed to be a time when secret lives abound and kept secret was for instance your religious affiliation. He was considered extremely brave putting on plays that did not always show in a good light the monarchy - but then, the crowd loved it and they were his paying customers and so I am thinking his reputation had to pass muster with not only the crowd but those whose gossip could influence the crown, who could stop him in his tracks by not approving of a play which then that prevented him from producing the play. With all this scrutiny from 'others' in order to keep his station and therefore, income I can see how that concern became a habit that would take over his conscious and his secret life as well would be measured based on his estimation of what the crowd or crown or those who influenced the court would have to say.   

Brings to mind public opinion affecting this election as 'secret' or private emails unfurl character that is less than exemplary - which can affect her future. I can only imagine how an examination of behavior as it plays to the public in and out of government is a constant. And like the poem, regardless how careful, if caught I bet they too have the quote handy, "All men are bad, and in their badness reign." 

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXII

 

Thy gift, thy tables, are within my brain Full character'd with lasting memory, Which shall above that idle rank remain Beyond all date, even to eternity; Or at the least, so long as brain and heart Have faculty by nature to subsist; Till each to razed oblivion yield his part Of thee, thy record never can be miss'd. That poor retention could not so much hold, Nor need I tallies thy dear love to score; Therefore to give them from me was I bold, To trust those tables that receive thee more:    To keep an adjunct to remember thee    Were to import forgetfulness in me.

William Shakespeare Sonnet 122
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYVOqAZWmsc

[BarbStAubrey]

hahaha - finally had to look up tables - I knew something was in his brain and came up with all sorts of convoluted concepts for 'table' - but a notebook - I laughed and laughed - now a tablet I would recognize as a notebook - but had no idea a table was an old word for notebook - now it makes perfect sense and in fact a delightful little sonnet - for some reason it seems little - nothing really dramatic or including questionable behavior - just a simply idea about a notebook holding what he committed to memory but just in case his memory fails or another wants to read of his love in heart and brain it is all in this notebook.

Reminds me of you Bellamarie with your ability to make memory books and of course today we have many a blog that is really more like a daily diary as folks capture their daily effort toward gathering or perfecting or sharing their interests. 

[BarbStAubrey]

But, soft: behold! lo where it comes again! ___ I'll cross it, though it blast me. Revisit'st thus the glimpses of the moon. Making night hideous ; and we, fools of nature, Infected he the air whereon they ride, And damned all those that trust them. By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes.

[PatH]

My book has a note tables=memorandum book.  But notice it's THY gift, THY tables.  The beloved has given him a book to write down his devotion, and he's saying he doesn't need any such thing.  A notebook only implies he will forget, which he says he won't.

To keep an adjunct to remember thee
Were to impart forgetfulness in me.

[bellamarie]

Sonnet 122

Yes, PatH., you are correct "thy" has given him a notebook to write down his memories, feelings or devotions of him.  I find Shakespeare's response a bit flippant, because he is insulted, or hurt that "thy" thinks he needs to write his feelings down, as if he would forget them some day.  In insinuating he needs this notebook, is like saying his feelings could change, and he will need to be reminded of them, when Shakespeare feels they could never change nor be forgotten.

 Of thee, thy record never can be miss'd.
That poor retention could not so much hold,
Nor need I tallies thy dear love to score;
Therefore to give them from me was I bold,
To trust those tables that receive thee more:
   To keep an adjunct to remember thee
   Were to import forgetfulness in me.

This sonnet comes directly after Shakespeare dealing with his cheating, so now here we are hearing "thy" has given him a notebook to write his feelings in.  So, are we to take this as "thy" is being a bit sarcastic in giving this because he is pointing out that he has cheated and needs to remember all the sonnets prior praising his undying love, yet here they are both cheaters?  A bit of irony if you ask me.

Barb, I always journaled for years, and then stopped, but besides making memory books and dvds, I also started my own blog over a year ago.  Whenever I feel the urge, I write on my blog to share with my Facebook friends and other bloggers.  I usually post on my Facebook daily, so I guess that is sort of like journaling, only I don't make it personal thoughts, more like chatting with friends and keeping in touch., and a perfect way to share all the pics I take of our family events with the kids and grandkids, since I am the only one in the family who takes pictures.  I would never be able to make these fantastic memory dvds for them without my pics.  Sad thing is, now I have no more physical family albums, they are all on cds,dvds or online in my Facebook album.  Not sure if that is good or bad. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, like y'all I too see the 'thy' however, I also read, "...are within my brain
Full character'd with lasting memory" and so I read it as the focus on the poet and his brain or lasting memory. 

Later he says,
Till each to razed oblivion yield his part
Of thee, thy record never can be miss'd.
Which says to me, till his memory fails the record is in the notebook or memorandum book - which I wondered if the written record was a euphemism - that 'thy' memorandum could be a mental record described as if noted in a book. In any event the memory of their love and his memory of his lover's beauty is noted someplace in addition to being in his brain.

I guess I have a difficult time, if the notebook is the lover's notebook filled with the description of their relationship how could it  be as complete as the poet's memory - I cannot imagine the lover writing, describing his or her own beauty and the beauty of movement seen by the poet, whom we assume to be Shakespeare. To actually write or even record in memory his or her own beauty as Shakespeare saw it would be someone so full of him or herself to make them totally neurotically egocentric.

And then he says,
To trust those tables that receive thee more:
   To keep an adjunct to remember thee
   Were to import forgetfulness in me.

Which says to me he does not intend to forget therefore, will not need the table and by suggesting to trust what is written in the table more than what is in his memory or brain is to value greatly his becoming forgetful.

Hmm I guess I am not seeing anything sinister here or a come-uppence to others who had or may gossip - I am seeing him taking both pride and solace in his ability to remember all... 'all' as in gift(s) and the word gift also means the giving or 'gifting' him a crutch to his memory. My thought is he sees all the events and memory of his lover's beauty and the feelings they shared as an abundant gift therefore, he could not imagine forgetting.

In fact, the memory of what they have shared and the beauty of this lover is so stamped in his brain, he does not have to see this lover again to be reminded or to recall and tally all the 'gifts', moments, events, thrills, love like a score card.
Nor need I tallies thy dear love to score;

I guess we each see this a tad differently - compared to the obsessive dependence he was showing in other Sonnets I see this one as upbeat - he is giving himself, his memory, his mental capacity, credit as greater than what can be journaled in a memorandum or notebook.  For me anything that does not have him describing himself as helpless, a victim or dependent is upbeat.  In this poem I see him in control saying and knowing he has this one... forgetfulness will not happen.

Ok onward...

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXIII

No! Time, thou shalt not boast that I do change: Thy pyramids built up with newer might To me are nothing novel, nothing strange; They are but dressings of a former sight. Our dates are brief, and therefore we admire What thou dost foist upon us that is old; And rather make them born to our desire, Than think that we before have heard them told. Thy registers and thee I both defy, Not wondering at the present nor the past, For thy records and what we see doth lie, Made more or less by thy continual haste.    This I do vow and this shall ever be;    I will be true, despite thy scythe and thee.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 123
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM0wo6Yypls

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm "I will be true, despite thy scythe and thee." There really is no choice is there now that I have aged - oh I guess there are some who change and kick up their heels or become curmudgeons - You almost have to wonder about this concept of a bucket list - I wonder if that is taking interest in our passions when we have lived putting first our duty and responsibility - Hmm what is our responsibility in life I wonder when we are old and there is no one - your kids really are not that affected by what you do or not do after they are in their late middle years and no longer need you to be the best grandparent - talk about freedom to be and do based on your passions since we really have so few responsibilities - for many their only responsibility is to stay out of the way and not add their two cents since that would be considered interference - ah so - and such is how we live out our time...

[bellamarie]

Barb, 

I guess I have a difficult time, if the notebook is the lover's notebook filled with the description of their relationship how could it  be as complete as the poet's memory - I cannot imagine the lover writing, describing his or her own beauty and the beauty of movement seen by the poet, whom we assume to be Shakespeare. To actually write or even record in memory his or her own beauty as Shakespeare saw it would be someone so full of him or herself to make them totally neurotically egocentric.

My take is the lover gave the empty notebook to Shakespeare to record his memories....  a bit of an insult, considering Shakespeare feels he could never forget them, so why would he need a notebook to write them down in?

I guess it's all in each person's perspective, as we say.

Sonnet 123

Now we are back to him defying time again. 

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm never thought of that - giving Shakespeare an empty notebook to fill with his thoughts - as you say Bellamarie we each see thaat one for one of the many facets of light that these poems offer.

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXIV

If my dear love were but the child of state, It might for Fortune's bastard be unfather'd As subject to Time's love or to Time's hate, Weeds among weeds, or flowers with flowers gather'd. No; it was builded far from accident; It suffers not in smiling pomp, nor falls Under the blow of thralled discontent, Whereto the inviting time our fashion calls: It fears not policy, that heretick, Which works on leases of short-number'd hours, But all alone stands hugely politick, That it nor grows with heat nor drowns with showers.    To this I witness call the fools of time,    Which die for goodness, who have liv'd for crime.

Shakespeare Sonnet 124
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RdudMvNiAw

[bellamarie]

Sonnet 124

No; it was builded far from accident;
It suffers not in smiling pomp, nor falls
Under the blow of thralled discontent,
Whereto the inviting time our fashion calls:
It fears not policy, that heretick,

I gather he is saying his love is not that of pomp and circumstance, it can not be affected by such.  I think we are beginning to see a repetition of some of the prior sonnets, of his love being timeless and unchangeable. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Difficult morning - early Ginny heard from Annie, who lives in the same town as Ella and who are friends. Annie called to say that our Ella passed - Words seem inadequate - Ella brought us so many wonderful books and her discussions were always so full of energy - to the end she was giving it her all in yet another wonderful choice of book. Been wrestling with this news all morning and it still has yet to sunk in - it seems so often it is a fall - Last year my best friend of 45 years similarly hung on for a few weeks after a fall just as Ella has hung on for several weeks. My prayers are for Cindy, Ella's daughter, that Cindy has some support.

Years ago I med Ella and Annie in Chicago at the gathering of then, SeniorNet. It was memorable if only because we all had reservations at the Blackstone and without any advance the hotel closed. Everyone, after actually showing up at the desk had to scramble for rooms elsewhere - many from that wonderful gathering are no longer with us and now Ella... it feels like the song, Empty Chairs At Empty Tables.

For Ella - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljijk2T8zV4

[BarbStAubrey]

We have been so enriched by Ella's contribution - her verve, intense curiosity and cheering leadership I'm finding it difficult to let go knowing Ells's posts will no longer be - of the phases of grief I had gotten to the depression stage over my good friend and now Ella which throws me back a bit but I am climbing through faster - I wish I could say I am able to let go and let God as the saying goes but I'm not there and so it is what it is...

Knowing how time ticks on, in one breath I feel that I wasted the day. I did wrestle with my thoughts that maybe we are meant to go forward as a duty or responsibility for what is right and to honor the person we grieve but, that ignores our feelings or inner passions which include all feelings - a cross road - I've been at that cross road many times and a few times I've given into my passion, letting my feelings that are the 5 stages of grief, full reign and frankly, I felt no better faster than I did by wearing a public face so to speak and doing what I was taught was expected - hate this feeling so listless and blah - did not get in that walk and that may be just what I need. OK without fail tomorrow even if only across to the park behind the school that is across from my house.

Yep, as we age we realize the "leases of short-number'd hours" and "Whereto the inviting time our fashion calls" Today is the Feast of All Saints after yesterday, Halloween the Feast of All Souls - and now a day of remembrance for a particular soul. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXV

Were't aught to me I bore the canopy, With my extern the outward honouring, Or laid great bases for eternity, Which proves more short than waste or ruining; Have I not seen dwellers on form and favour Lose all, and more, by paying too much rent, For compound sweet forgoing simple savour, Pitiful thrivers, in their gazing spent? No; -- let me be obsequious in thy heart, And take thou my oblation, poor but free, Which is not mix'd with seconds, knows no art, But mutual render, only me for thee.    Hence, thou suborn'd informer! a true soul,    When most impeach'd, stands least in thy control.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 125
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUCSwFWDOQ8

[bellamarie]

Barb,  What beautiful words you have posted in honor of our gentle, sweet Ella.  After learning of her passing I did take a walk with my hubby and dog, and I was talking with my hubby about how I will miss Ella in our discussions.  I know she would want us all to go forward with these discussions because I feel we will find her here with us......  let's just take whatever time we all need to help us process the loss of Ella, and we can move forward when we are ready. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Yes, Bellamarie Ella came across as gentle and sweet but she also had been strong can-do force filled with an automatic expectation that folks would want to share their thoughts by posting often - Ella's strength was more evident back 10 and more years ago. As strong a personality as she was, she was always supportive of everyone and respectful.

I am so glad you and your husband took a walk during which you can share the details of your day and your feelings that are  engaged during the day's happenings.

I think part of what I had to come to terms with is that there is no imagining ahead of time what it will be like not to have Ella's strength and participation leading a meaningful book discussion - we really do not have anyone in the wings with her gifts but then it will all happen as it should and we will be fine. I realize now how often I think and support ideas that I only learned by being a friend to Charlotte for all the years and especially the last 10 years so that I can only imagine but I bet some of Ella has rubbed off on us and we will be saying and doing things as we learned them from our associations with Ella.

I guess that is it - we do rub off on each other and so this poem has aspects that I can see that truth - like holding a canopy for someone is really being aware of how we listen and give them reverence when we listen we are learning from them and to be grateful for that opportunity. However, I think Shakespeare is saying something a bit different - more like public homage is of lessor value - while I am thinking public homage is how we respect the gifts from God that are encapsulated in another and shared by their words and actions. That we would not give those gifts their due if we did not give homage, public or otherwise to the barer who is a living instrument of God. 

Shakespeare seems to be suggesting only the obsequious, the servile, the poor makes them free to really honor another - hmm get it not just being literally poor but quietly and privately therefore not artificial and not attempting to pander to another to build them up for I guess he is thinking for someone's personal gain is why you give public homage. Hmm - maybe he is saying this because he is seeing the young lover having his head turned by this public homage and Shakespeare wants to win like a game or competition the good graces and love of the young lover -

Well regardless the meaning intended I still see the wonderment of what others have to offer and public or private homage is not so much to that person but recognizing we are all an instrument of God and to recognize a gift is to recognize not only the gift but the person who took the gift and ran with it.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXVI

O thou, my lovely boy, who in thy power Dost hold Time's fickle glass, his sickle, hour; Who hast by waning grown, and therein show'st Thy lovers withering as thy sweet self grow'st; If Nature, sovereign mistress over wrack, As thou goest onwards, still will pluck thee back, She keeps thee to this purpose, that her skill May time disgrace and wretched minutes kill. Yet fear her, O thou minion of her pleasure; She may detain, but not still keep, her treasure:    Her audit, though delay'd, answer'd must be,    And her quietus is to render thee

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 126
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tctJh4jAfy0

[bellamarie]

Sonnet 126

O thou, my lovely boy, who in thy power
Dost hold Time's fickle glass, his sickle, hour;
Who hast by waning grown, and therein show'st
Thy lovers withering as thy sweet self grow'st;

Maybe I am just in a funky mood, but this sonnet just does not set well with me.  Shakespeare is pointing out the youthfulness of this lovely boy.  He uses the word "boy" then he goes on to mention how he, himself is old and aging, "withering".  Creepy, is how I am now feeling, about this love Shakespeare has for this young boy.  Just how old is this boy? 

I guess maybe something has caused me to feel this way.....  a friend of mine passed away a year ago.  She and her husband were in our Pre Cana classes for the engaged couples I was a facilitator with in our church back in the 1990's.  They were the young ones who were just beginning their family, and at the time had three sweet little girls.  Tim, the father joked at the time and said at the rate they were going having all girls, that when it comes time for them to marry, he and Sara will have to give the girls a thousand dollars and a ladder to elope.  We all laughed, and that was a standing joke.  They ended up having four beautiful daughters, and before the oldest graduated Jr. High their Daddy (Tim) died of brain cancer.  Sara had to raise these girls without a Daddy, and she worked three jobs to manage to get them all in a Catholic High School.  Sara died last year before seeing her first grandchild born.  Laura, her daughter had a baby girl Lucy just six months ago.  Laura posted on Facebook yesterday how she was shocked at while singing Rock - A - Bye - Baby to sweet little Lucy the words in the song seemed scary for her baby.  She had so many comments on that post, about how so many children's songs, poems and even Disney movies have scary and even violent content.  I mentioned to her even Lewis Carroll who wrote Alice In Wonderland was possibly a pervert being in love with Alice at such a young age.  Now today reading this sonnet, it really bothers me to realize I have been reading these sonnets for 125 days, not thinking about how inappropriate these have been, about an older man obsessing, and professing his undying love to a young boy.  How much of art be it songs, poems, portraits, paintings, movies, etc., have we admired, honored, awarded, and called classic, and even noble, throughout the centuries overlooking the actual conduct, and possible vileness of the person creating these works all in the name of art?

Gives me something to ponder on my walk today......

[BarbStAubrey]

ah yes, Bellamarie - so often the arts portray what is finally understood as more than creepy - the one caveat I have reading this poem is - I think he was talking about his young son who died at age 11 or 12 which in the sixteenth century would be as an 18 or 19 year old since the average age at death was 30s to maybe the very early 40s. From everything we read the death of his son hit him hard - he was his only boy. So that I even wondered about some of the earlier sonnets that referred to a beloved - in this one the mistress he speaks of is Nature and so this one fits the death of his son.

As to the others - in London and among those in the theater or even in court I can imagine a 'gay' relationship and often there were years between the age of the partners - even today we see some who are similar in age but we also see younger men with older men - I do not get the sense there was coercion - but the ins and outs of gay men hooking up is not what I know best.

I do notice they seem to be, even in our closed neighborhood discussion on facebook, a bit more what I would call risque or even dirty with their references - and I live in a nice part of town - we do have many gays in Austin because of it being a high tech town and a town that has a lot of artists, musicians, architects, not so much dancers - we only have a small ballet company - Austin has also become a large fashion design center with the needed components, artists and cheap labor and several events a year bringing in many high dollar internationals - these are all professions that attract gays - even several of our local TV news reporters and anchors are gay - and so where I am surrounded and therefore, have a peek into differences I am not knowledgeable enough of why or what the attraction is to each other.

In the past I would have thought some outrageous behavior was to call attention to themselves but now that the gay community has achieved just about all equal rights and are no longer marching or asking for funds, seeing some of this outrageous dress and behavior that includes what and how they say things I just do not understand. Clearly it is not to call attention to their difference - all to say I do see in the grocery store and coffee shops some couples where one is older and I also see mixed race that include a large age difference. I'm guessing it has to do with what is considered attractive and maybe the older guy financially has the where with all to take care of the younger more pleasing looking partner.   

As to nursery rhymes having frightening words when you research the original stories that started some of these stories and sing song like songs the words make perfect sense - they just do not fit today - I remember years and years ago looking up rock a bye baby but I have now completely forgotten the story behind it - but all of them have logical reasoning - it is just that today we do not have some of the life experiences that were usual back 4 to 500 years ago.

I'm older now than when I used to walk with my grandmother who had 12 children but only 3 lived - some of the stories of their deaths were horrific if compared to today but then, they were usual - for instance one was in a high chair - there was not the attached table tops to hold them in or straps - the children were tied into the chair usually with soft strips of cloth - well one child wiggled out and they lived on the second floor in a house that had a basement apartment - in the back, where the kitchens all faced, there was a cement alley about 8 or 10 feet wide that ran along the entire back of the building - the door to the basement apartment opened to this alley - when the little guy wriggled out he was next to the window and got out of the chair onto the window sill and fell to his death - there were illnesses but one death that stayed with me - the baby was born early and they wrapped it in cotton and put it in a box - some used a big pot and kept the baby near the back of the stove for warmth - the moms were kept in bed for a minimum of 5 days back then and who ever was looking after that baby was also keeping the house going from heating the household's hot water to cooking meals and caring for my grandmother so that the baby become, putting it kindly too warm and died.

All these things were normal at the turn of the twentieth century nursery rhymes were from a much earlier time so of course the daily happenings was included that often were a teaching aid as to what not to do.

Here are a couple of web sites that may help

http://mentalfloss.com/article/55035/dark-origins-11-classic-nursery-rhymes

http://listverse.com/2012/11/28/10-sinister-origins-of-nursery-rhymes/

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=4848

[bellamarie]

While I can see how you could imagine Shakespeare writing this sonnet about his son, I can't because he uses "thy lovers". Looking at the modern day text for that particular line it says, "You’ve only grown more beautiful as you’ve aged, revealing in the process how withered I, your lover, have become."

Very interesting points you make about artists singing and writing on their tragedies back then, and how over the years they have been grouped in "children's" sections.  The dramatics artists drew from back then and created such scary, and violent material would not be admired, nor condoned for children of today.  We have ratings now to protect them from such material. 

As for the environment you experience living where you are, I am no where near that level of outwardness where I live.  I worry about child trafficking because my city is among one of the highest rates for this.  There are no accepting or tolerance for older men or women who prey on children/underage teens for their sexual pleasure.  I'm not feeling comfortable with this sonnet, and it seems to have struck a cord in me, realizing all or at least most of these sonnets are Shakespeare seeming to be in love to the point of obsession, with as he refers to him as a young "boy." 

Thank you for the links. 

[bellamarie]

Barb,  I like this from one of your links:

If you're looking for a version of this song where the baby doesn't meet its doom, Candice Night recorded a more comforting rendition for her 2015 album Starlight Starbright with her husband Ritchie Blackmore on guitar. Her lyric becomes:

When that wind blows, there's nothing to fear
'Cause mommy and daddy will always be here

In our interview with Night, she said, "If you are a parent or caregiver you have absolutely every right - more than that, it should be your duty really - to do whatever you can do to comfort your child and let them know everything is all right. Even if it isn't... We all shoulder burdens and hide truths from our children so that they can retain their innocence. And the most vulnerable time for a child is right before bedtime. Why would anyone want to scare them at that moment?"


I have changed many lines in children's songs while raising my children, grandchildren and having my in home daycare business.  One prayer I changed was:

As I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
Let me awake to sunny skies
And see God's love through rested eyes.

I'll never forget the night my daughter and I were saying the original Now I Lay Me Down To Sleep prayer, and got to the line, "if I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take." My sweet little frightened daughter looked at me and asked, "Am I going to die when I go to sleep?"  I reassured her no, and told her I did not like that part of the prayer so I will change it.  I have used only my version since then.

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXVII

In the old age black was not counted fair, Or if it were, it bore not beauty's name; But now is black beauty's successive heir, And beauty slander'd with a bastard shame: For since each hand hath put on nature's power, Fairing the foul with art's false borrow'd face, Sweet beauty hath no name, no holy bower, But is profan'd, if not lives in disgrace. Therefore my mistress' brows are raven black, Her eyes so suited; and they mourners seem At such who, not born fair, no beauty lack, Slandering creation with a false esteem:    Yet so they mourn, becoming of their woe,    That every tongue says, beauty should look so.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 127
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPQWgH81NdA

[BarbStAubrey]

Several old folk songs that speak of Black as being less favorable - the best known - Black Black is the color of my true love's hair - adn these folk songs were mostly from the 14th century - it has been estimated that the black coloring addressed in these old songs is not from Africa but rather from Spain - the Moor's were in Spain and Spanish ships came up along the English and Irish coast - the saying has been almost as folklore, still said when I was a child - the Irish with black hair, black eyebrows and dark eyes were as a result of sailors either shipwrecking or being captured from Spanish ships.

It appears the same problems of defining what is acceptable was an issue over 400 year ago during Shakespeare's lifetime and today - "That every tongue says, beauty should look so."

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXVIII

How oft, when thou, my music, music play'st, Upon that blessed wood whose motion sounds With thy sweet fingers, when thou gently sway'st The wiry concord that mine ear confounds, Do I envy those jacks that nimble leap To kiss the tender inward of thy hand, Whilst my poor lips, which should that harvest reap, At the wood's boldness by thee blushing stand! To be so tickled, they would change their state And situation with those dancing chips, O'er whom thy fingers walk with gentle gait, Making dead wood more blest than living lips.    Since saucy jacks so happy are in this,    Give them thy fingers, me thy lips to kiss.

William Shakespeare's Sonnet 128
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko08oOe-ZKE

[BarbStAubrey]

Today November 5, is Guy Fawkes day that took place in 1605 - eleven years before Shakespeare's death - and the question; What did Shakespeare know and was the bonfires of Guy Fawkes day included in any of his plays...

Well little did I know but Macbeth is a direct result of Guy Fawkes attempt to bomb into smithereens the King and all his associates. I also completely forgot it was a Catholic Plot with several of those involved living in or near Stratford Upon Avon.

Here is a short explanation of what happened to the conspirators and how Shakespeare handled saving his own skin.   

http://www.shakespeare-online.com/biography/gunpowderplot.html

[BarbStAubrey]

Shakespeare Sonnet CXXIX

The expense of spirit in a waste of shame Is lust in action; and till action, lust Is perjured, murderous, bloody, full of blame, Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust, Enjoy'd no sooner but despised straight, Past reason hunted, and no sooner had Past reason hated, as a swallow'd bait On purpose laid to make the taker mad; Mad in pursuit and in possession so; Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme; A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe; Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream.    All this the world well knows; yet none knows well    To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.

Shakespeare Sonnet 129
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnd9XmbS2iw