Author Topic: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online  (Read 33957 times)

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: October 10, 2013, 08:48:01 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

October Book Club Online

Persuasion by Jane Austen


“My idea of good company...is the company of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation; that is what I call good company.'
'You are mistaken,' said he gently, 'that is not good company, that is the best.”
― Jane Austen, Persuasion

Come join us for the best company as we read this classic. Here, Austen abandons the young heroines of her earlier works and presents us with a fully mature woman who fears that her chance of happiness has already passed. Austen finished Persuasion just before her death at age 41. It is her last book, and some feel her best.





     Discussion schedule:

       Oct 1-7--Chapters 1-6
       Oct 8-12--Chapters 7-12
       Oct 13-17--Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)


Some things to think about: Chapters 7-12


1. What are Anne's feelings on meeting Wentworth? What are Wentworth's? How do the differences in these feelings reflect the difference in their circumstance?

2. Two married women in this section are Mary and Mrs. Croft. How do they represent two extremes in reacting to the role of wife?

3. What are the two examples of "persuasion" in this section? How do you feel about them?

4. In this book, character is shown by the way people react to the choices and circumstances given them. Give some examples. What other ways might character be defined?

5. Is Wentworth's attitude toward Anne changing? If so, how and why?


Chapters 13-18 (Book 2, 1-6)

1. In this section, our characters are all scattered and on the move: Lyme, Uppercross, Kellynch, Bath. Why do you think Austen does this? What does this do dramatically to the tone of the book?

2. "Everybody has their taste in noises as well as in other matters". Here,  Austen contrasts the noise and bustle of a busy family with the noise and bustle of a busy town. Which do you think Austen preferred? Which do you?

3. At one point, Anne is the last one left at Uppercross, as everyone else has left. Have you ever felt that way? Do you think Austen did in her personal life?

4. Sir Walter says "The worst of Bath was the number of plain women." What are the ways Austen shows Sir Walter to be ridiculous? In what ways does she contrast him to Admiral Croft? Which one is funnier?

5. "The evil of marriage [between Sir Walter and Mrs. Clay] would be much diminished if Elizabeth were also to marry." Why? Why the concern over Mrs. Clay?

6. Why do you think William Eliot renewed his acquaintance with Sir Walter?

7. What do you think of the news in Chapter 18? (Please don't discuss until everyone has read it.)



DLs:   PatH & JoanK  


bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: October 10, 2013, 09:29:10 AM »
1. What are Anne's feelings on meeting Wentworth? What are Wentworth's? How do the differences in these feelings reflect the difference in their circumstance?

Anne is very apprehensive in meeting Mr. Wentworth for the first time in eight years.  Once they meet he seems polite, yet a bit aloof.  I did not get the feeling either of them have renewed feelings for each other at this first meeting.  I think it's a normal thing for Anne to think back to the "What ifs".  I sense Mr. Wentworth seems a bit protective of Anne, as when he takes the nephew and removes him from Anne's back.  He could see the parents were not disciplining him, after Anne asked her nephew to get down off of her.  That was a kind gesture on Mr. Wentworth's part.

I'm not sure the two of them will have rekindled love at this point, but I sense Mr. Wentworth is for certain looking for a wife, and there seems to be plenty of women ready and wiling to have him.  Anne is such a quiet, reserved person.  She is so willing to just hang back and not be a part of anything.  I sort of feel a bit sorry for her.  Mary just continues to try to be the object of attention, not caring in the least of her sister's feelings.  I'm trying very hard to tolerate Mary's behavior.  Is JA trying to show us how difficult it is to deal with selfish, self centered sisters?

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: October 10, 2013, 09:58:22 AM »
PatH., Wow, you have piqued my curiosity, and would love to hear more about your experience and knowledge of Old Ironsides/USS Constitution.  I am always awed at what members have experienced in their travels, places they live, and history they can share with us.  I've traveled no where outside the U.S, except for Canada, and I must say there is so much more I long to see even in the United States.  I have a bucket list and Italy and Great Britain are on it.  I at least get to learn and visualize these places through the members, and books I read, along with the travel channel.

JoanK., "I think he was pretty clueless as to how Anne felt. certainly before they met, and probably afterwards as well."

I am wondering if he is just now observing the jewel Anne is, and also wondering about the "what if"  I'm not so sure if he is clueless of her feelings, or if he is just very protective of his own since his proposal was denied years ago.  I notice just at the right times he does something that makes me think he is aware of Anne and the sweet person she is, and feels even more worried about allowing himself to feel for her yet again.  Guess time will tell.

I enjoyed the entire interactions of all the characters in Lyme Regis.  It left me wanting more.....can't wait to get to the next chapters to see where this is going. 

Ciao for now~

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: October 10, 2013, 09:59:57 AM »
We do not hear the interior views and dialogue Captain Wentworth has with himself so that like a blank slate we can project our ideas for what ever intentions he may have.

I see him almost giddy with the freedom and social surroundings unlike anything he had at sea and now that he is back among civilians he has rank and prestige that he did not have as a younger man. As a younger man he had the bitter pill of not being good enough. Now he is good enough and it is a heady feeling.

As to Anne several things - first she is a reminder of when he was not good enough that he has to come to terms with in a form of forgiveness to those who represented to him proper social expectations. Then he is new to his status among civilians and like anyone needs some time to soak it up. Certainly acknowledging a women who represents a painful experience and as we heard over and over her bloom is gone, he would have to be so committed to her to choose her over these other vital good looking ladies during a time when he is celebrating his new status. I think there is a lot of hurt he has to come to terms with or decide his love is bigger and stronger then the hurt and pain that did not leave when he first went back to the Navy after their break up.

I think it is interesting that Lyme Regis is the scene for this section of the story. At the edge with the sea on one side and the land on the other - the split in the heart of Captain Wentworth - his heart is split between the sea and the land - even the edge of both as if he is subject to the tides that expose either a lot of land painful but with promise of finding a fuller life than his love of the Navy will provide, where he is alone, where he makes a difference and he can practice improving his skills.  
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: October 10, 2013, 01:15:15 PM »
By now most of you have read the section in Lyme?  

When I first read Persuasion, I had a lot of trouble trying to visualize the Cobb, and the fateful steps.  Pictures make it clear.  The Cobb is a curving seawall, extending out into the water.  You can walk along its wide top and get splendid views, but if it's too windy, you walk out along the wider base.  Steps lead up from the lower part to the top of the wall.

Here's a gallery of Lyme Regis pictures that makes it clear.  The first two pictures are the Cobb, and the seventh is the steps.  Click on a picture to enlarge it.

http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/dorset/Lyme-Regis-Photos-Cobb.htm


Jonathan

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: October 10, 2013, 02:16:03 PM »
Is Anne still in love with Frederick Wentworth? Can anyone doubt it? There it is in her past, in her summertime. Now she finds herself in the autumn of her life, with her thousand literary quotations about that beautiful but melancholy season.

Frederick returns with a splendid naval record and considerable wealth. What a wonderful plot, bringing these two together after seven years. Can anyone doubt that he would still have feelings about his first love? But he's not inclined to show them. Or is he?

How to rekindle the flame. This is worth watching.

bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: October 10, 2013, 04:17:37 PM »
Amazing pictures of Lyme Regis, PatH., thank you so much!  It makes me want to walk their paths with them!

I definitely think Mr. Wentworth is keeping his eyes on Anne, and I also feel he is seeing how Mary is taking advantage of Anne's kindness.  Anne deserves happiness and love, and I sense it will be with Mr. Wentworth. 

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: October 10, 2013, 04:51:06 PM »
Great photos - so many authors that use this harbor in their story - the town or at least the harbor should get a plaque as a literary landmark
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JoanK

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: October 10, 2013, 05:12:49 PM »
I was always rather impatient with the scene on the steps at Lyme. But now I see them, I feel different. I sure wouldn't want to walk down them in long skirts, and probably quite unsuitable shoes:

"http://www.britainexpress.com/counties/dorset/Lyme-Regis-Photos/Lyme-Regis-Photo-14.htm

JoanK

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: October 10, 2013, 05:16:22 PM »
BARB: "I see him [Captain Wentworth] almost giddy with the freedom and social surroundings unlike anything he had at sea and now that he is back among civilians he has rank and prestige that he did not have as a younger man. As a younger man he had the bitter pill of not being good enough. Now he is good enough and it is a heady feeling."

that's an excellent point! I never thought of that, but now you say it, it sounds right. And yet with time, his common sense takes over, and he starts to realize that all that glitters is not gold.

JoanK

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: October 10, 2013, 05:19:49 PM »
I started to wonder what kind of shoes the women would be wearing to walk on the cobb. Here are some choices:

https://www.google.com/search?q=jane+austen+shoes&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=OxlXUunsJua6igLpzIHwAw&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=853&bih=585&dpr=1

Oh, my: didn't they squeeze the toes. I always suffered when narrow toed shoes were "in". My feet just aren't shaped that way!

JoanP

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: October 10, 2013, 05:52:46 PM »
Now try to imagine those shoes coming down those steps!  I thought that the Captain had been finding Louisa mature and sensible for her age...until she began to play on the steps, jumping into his arms.  So much fun, she did it again!  I think his opinion of her might change, just as Anne's quiet and capable handling of the whole situation does not escape his attention...

Also, isn't it amazing how the sea breezes can bring back the bloom to one's cheeks?  

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: October 10, 2013, 09:22:45 PM »
Looking at those steps, I think jumping might be less dangerous than walking down them.  Later, when they are in Bath, there is a mention of Anne's boots, and a footnote that boots were becoming fashionable, so let's hope that's what the women were wearing.

bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: October 11, 2013, 01:48:35 PM »
Quote
(Mary)"Captain Wentworth is not very gallant by you, Anne, though he was so attentive to me.  Henrietta asked him what he thought of you,  when they went away, and he said: :"You were so altered he should not have known you again."  Mary had no feelings to make her respect her sister's in a common way, but she was perfectly unsuspicious of being inflicting any peculiar wound.  "Altered beyond his knowledge."  Anne fully submitted, in silent, deep mortification.  Doubtless it was so, and she could take no revenge, for he was not altered, or not for the worse.  She had already acknowledged it to herself, and she could not think differently, let him think of her as he would.  No: the years which had destroyed her youth and bloom had given him a more glowing, manly, open look, in no respect lessening his personal advantages.  She had seen the same Frederick Wentworth.

She had given him up to oblige others.  It had been the effect of over-persuasion.  It had been weakness and timidity.

He had been warmly attached to her, and had never seen a woman since whom he thought her equal; but, except from some natural sensation of curiosity, he had no desire of meeting her again.  Her power with him was gone for ever.

It was now his object to marry.  He was rich, and being turned on shore, fully intended to settle as soon as he could be properly tempted; actually looking round, ready to fall in love with all the speed which a clear head and quick taste could allow.  He had a heart for either of the Miss Musgroves, if they could catch it; a heart, in short, for any pleasing young woman who came in his way, excepting Anne Elliot.  This was his only secret exception, when he said to his sister, in answer to her suppositions:

"Yes, here I am Sophia, quite ready to make a foolish match.  Anybody between fifteen and thirty may have me for asking.   A little beauty, and a few smiles, and a few compliments to the navy, and I am a lost man.  Should not this be enough for a sailor, who has no society among women to make him nice?"  He said it, she knew, to be contradicted.  His bright proud eye spoke the happy conviction that he was nice; and Anne Elliot was not out of his thoughts, when he more than seriously described the woman he should wish to meet with.  "A strong mind, with sweetness of manner,"  made the first and last of the description.  "That is a woman I want,"  said he.  "Something a little inferior I shall of course put up with, but it must not be much.  If I am a fool, I shall be a fool indeed, for I have thought on the subject more than most men."

I can see by these paragraphs especially the parts I highlighted, Anne and Frederick still love each other after all the years apart.  Now we have to see just if and how they are able to get back with each other.  JA has obviously set the scene for a cat and mouse chase....as in all good love stories.

There are plenty of women to get in between the two of them, and Captain Benwick seems to be a bit of a distraction for Anne, so will their pride, hurt and persuasion once again keep them apart.  Will Anne be strong minded with sweetness of manner to get her guy?

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: October 11, 2013, 03:53:16 PM »
Nice analysis, Bellamarie.  Anne definitely still loves Frederick, and he thinks he's over her, but may be fooling himself.

Jonathan

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: October 11, 2013, 05:53:25 PM »
Much to think about here, as Captain Wentworth has discovered. And fooling himself!!! So is Anne. It's not the sea breezes that she finds exhilarating. Isn't she being given a lot of opportunities to show off a strong mind with sweetness of manner? It's not lost on the captain.

A love story? How are we ever going to match up all the singles who are showing up?

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: October 12, 2013, 02:05:08 PM »
Are people ready to move on tomorrow?  If so, let's take the next 6 chapters.  My two books are numbered differently.  In one, this would be Chapters 13 to 18; In the other, it would be Book 2, Chapters 1 to 6.

We will see more of the Crofts, then move on to Bath, where we will meet some new characters.

There is a new development in the last of these chapters, so I suggest we don't say anything about Chapter 18 (or 6) at first, to be sure everyone has gotten there.

bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: October 12, 2013, 02:19:11 PM »
My  next chapters would be 13 - 18.  I will begin reading them now, so will be ready to discuss them tomorrow as suggested.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanK

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: October 12, 2013, 03:05:02 PM »
You will be tempted to read on and finish the book. Please don't. Let's wait and finish it together.

salan

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: October 12, 2013, 06:39:58 PM »
I am still trudging along.  I am finding the book rather boring; but it may just be the mood I am in.  I remember liking it when I first read it many years ago.
Sally

bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #180 on: October 12, 2013, 08:45:05 PM »
I promise NOT to finish the last chapters JoanK.  I love a good ending, and hate reading ahead and spoiling it.   ;)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: October 12, 2013, 08:55:40 PM »
Sally, if you really can't stand the book, but want to follow the discussion, you could try renting the 1995 movie with Amanda Root and Ciaran Hinds.  It's they only version I know that's pretty accurate, though of course it has to leave out stuff.  

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: October 13, 2013, 09:28:56 AM »
If you do get the DVD, the current section takes us through Anne's first visit to Mrs. Smith, in Bath, and a conversation immediately afterward between Anne and Admiral Croft.  Don't go farther than that.

Jonathan

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: October 13, 2013, 10:49:45 AM »
First readings may very often be the best. Be that as it may, I'm happy that I've waited for Jane Austen to cap off a lifetime of reading. I might have lived my life differently if I had read her as a young man. I can see the making of many an ideal English gentleman as seen through the eyes of her characters and her own comments. He makes an entrance in Lyme as Mr Elliot.

Marvellous place, that Lyme Regis. I enjoyed the photos. I'm a bit sceptical about finding a fossil imprint on the beach, but it does look marvellous. And then the famous steps where Louisa took her fall. I hope it's not a spoiler when I say that the fall marks the turning point in the novel.

I was surprised to hear of how few ladies were to be seen in Bath. Mostly 'scares', as seen by Sir Walter.

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: October 13, 2013, 11:07:31 AM »
Don't forget Sir Walter's exacting standards.  There are plenty of ladies, just none he approves of.

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2013, 11:57:17 AM »
Since we'll be moving to Bath, we might want to know what it looks like.  You can still see a lot of what Austen would have seen.



Royal Crescent, Bath

I like this picture, because it shows the backs of houses, which most don't.  It's a town built to a philosophy, visible here.  These are rich people, used to country estates.  The whole half-circle of row houses has a uniform facade, with no visible division between the units (except each one has its own door).  This makes it look like one grand impressive building, the style the people would like to think they live in.  From the back, you can see the actual size of the units.  When Anne comes to Bath, Elizabeth proudly shows off their house, "undoubtedly the best in Camden-Place", and Anne wonders that Elizabeth, who had been mistress of Kellynch-Hall, can boast of the space "between two walls, perhaps thirty feet asunder".

You can also see the patches of nature, a part of the Georgian ideal.

Here's a link to a larger image of the same picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Royal.crescent.aerial.bath.arp.jpg

Frybabe

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2013, 12:12:04 PM »
Wonderful. We never see the backyards in any of the shows that feature the fronts, either. At least, I don't remember seeing any. That is the kind of house I would have liked a townhouse with a long narrow backyard and stone walls between me and my neighbors, preferably higher that most of those seem to be. I've always liked the gardens set in such a venue, with vines and trained shrubs up against the walls, maybe a small fish pond and/or statuary, a deck and/or gazebo, and a flagstone path.

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #187 on: October 13, 2013, 12:56:18 PM »
And a gardener to do the work.

JoanK

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: October 13, 2013, 03:58:54 PM »
JONATHAN: "First readings may very often be the best. Be that as it may, I'm happy that I've waited for Jane Austen to cap off a lifetime of reading."

I envy you, reading it for the first time!

The crescent shaped building in the foreground is called (wait for it) "The Crescent", and is well known. I don't think it's mentioned in the book, but the movie of Persuasion that Pat mentioned has a key scene filmed there.

I was talking to my daughter about Bath this morning. A confirmed Austen addict, when in England she passed up a chance to visit Shakespeare's birthplace to visit Bath instead. She said the thing that surprised her was how small it is. Most of the places mentioned in the book are very close together. the house where Austen herself lived is a little further, about a mile.

The other thing of note is that all of the buildings are built of a stone that is quarried nearby giving the town a uniform appearance, as can be seen in the picture. The crescent is on top of a hill, and the view is magnificent.

The baths themselves were built by the Romans. The "Pump Room" is the center of social activity: it has a fountain in the middle, and from that, people "took (i.e. drank) the water" which was supposed to have medicinal qualities. When my daughter was there, you could still do that: she said the water tasted so bad, she only took one sip. Now, they've decided that there is something harmful in it, and won't let people drink it. They serve "tea" in the pump room.

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #189 on: October 13, 2013, 04:51:35 PM »
I went to Bath once, in 1958.  It was too early for me, as I didn't then have as much appreciation for architecture as I do now.  It was also too early for Bath, as it was before they cleaned up the buildings.  They were a dark, sooty grey from many years of coal burning, and you could see nothing of the color of that beautiful golden local stone.

I had a good time anyway.  I didn't even have the courage to taste the water though, after getting a smell of it.

bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: October 13, 2013, 05:42:19 PM »
The picture of Bath is so neat to see!  Thank you PatH., for sharing this.  Being a bit OCD, I of course love the unison of the buildings.  It does look a bit uppity, and that would explain Elizabeth and her father being a bit offended with Anne going to see an old school mate in a part of town they see beneath their standards.  Sir Walter does appear to be a bit of a snob, especially when he said there are few women suitable.  Maybe that's why he has remained single since his wife's death.  I saw a side of Elizabeth I did not much care for, when she thought Anne should skip seeing her crippled friend in order to go to a party with them.  Anne sure does seem to be the most sensitive and caring daughter of the three.

Before discussing some interesting parts of these next chapters, I have to ask what on earth is all the prattle about the Countess and her daughter about?  Was it just me or did it seem not to make any sense whatsoever?  I was getting the feeling that JA knew her days were limited, and it appears as though in this book, she did bring characters into the story that did not seem to fit nor have much importance at all, except for me personally wondering if JA was wandering, and trying to add people from her own life into the characters in this novel.  It made keeping up with the characters of importance difficult.  I did find parts of these next chapters a bit dragging out, and boring as Sally mentioned. 

I had my two grandkids spend the day/night with me, so I am a bit tired today, so I won't bother trying to post anything more until I have had rest, and time to make a little more sense out of these chapters.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #191 on: October 13, 2013, 07:08:28 PM »
Before discussing some interesting parts of these next chapters, I have to ask what on earth is all the prattle about the Countess and her daughter about?  Was it just me or did it seem not to make any sense whatsoever? 
I love it when you ask questions I don't know the answer to.  I think this is designed to show the snobbery of Sir Walter and Elizabeth.  Lady Dalrymple is a whole level above Sir Walter on the snob scale.  (A baronet is just below being nobility, and a viscountess is noble.)  So they suck up to her just for the snob advantage.  Later, important things happen at a concert under Lady Dalrymple's patronage, but given the social setup at Bath, many other events would work as well.

Anybody else--what do you think?

JoanP

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: October 13, 2013, 07:46:11 PM »
It was amusing to me to see the snobbish Sir Walter make such an allowance for Mrs. Clay.  The importance of the titled Dalrumples?  I agree, Pat - another example of the importance Sir Walter and Elizabeth attached to titles... Even Lady Russell seems impressed by the future baronet...Anne to her credit sees through all of them.  

bellamarie

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #193 on: October 13, 2013, 10:09:57 PM »
PatH., "So they suck up to her just for the snob advantage." Ah ha!  Yes, I suppose you are right, I was a bit tired last night while reading those chapters, after getting my two sweet little grandchildren to bed, so while reading this I thought since it went no further...what does this have to do with anything.  Much ado about nothing.  

Lady Russell is proving to not have such a good judge in character after all, considering she put her faith in Mr. Elliot for Anne to marry, with of course, the intent of finally having Anne take the rightful place at Kellynch, fill her mother's place and be wealthy.  Yes, JoanP., Anne does seem to have the insight into the real character of people, with her innocence and honesty.  I sense our Anne has matured, and grown since she was persuaded years ago, and now I am certain she is not going to allow anyone persuade her to do anything anymore. Unless, it is Frederick convincing her to say yes, to his proposal.  What were those words Frederick used, "strong minded with sweetness of manner", that is proving to be Anne, and I sense he has seen it, since he returned from the Navy.

I'm off to bed, to get a good night sleep.  Tomorrow I am going to go over my many notes I scribbled down last night, trying not to awaken the sleeping angels.  I had them all day yesterday, all night, we went to church together and when my son and daughter in law were walking them out of the church, sweet little Zoey began crying to go back to Nonnie & Papa's house. lol

Ciao for now~   

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: October 14, 2013, 02:26:18 PM »
Quote
1. In this section, our characters are all scattered and on the move: Lyme, Uppercross, Kellynch, Bath. Why do you think Austen does this? What does this do dramatically to the tone of the book?

When considering this first question, I couldn't help but notice that we are following Anne from one of these places to the next.  There's only one other character following her...is it too  much of a coincidence that Captain Wentworth's turns up wherever Anne is?

I also got the impression that William Elliot turned up in Bath because he learned Anne would be there.  He noticed her in Lyme Regis.  She's turned quite a few heads, without noticing.  I don't think Mr. Elliot is interested in Elizabeth at all. He says all the right things...but Anne sees through him.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: October 14, 2013, 03:06:42 PM »
Do you get the feeling that all this deciphering what words and actions mean to these characters and then how they should proceed is not much different than reading Tom Clancy's Red October
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PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: October 14, 2013, 03:45:10 PM »
William Elliot had admired Anne in Lyme, but didn't know who she was.  When they met again in Bath, he was visibly surprised at seeing her.

JoanK

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: October 14, 2013, 04:54:03 PM »
BELLE: after a day of grandchildren, you're doing well if you can think at all! At least, that's the way I feel, tho I love them madly. Did you notice Mrs. Russell's reaction after a dinner with Mary's children? She couldn't stand the noise! But she didn't turn a! hair at the noise of noisy Bath, which was just as loud. I laughed and laughed at that.

BARB" Do you get the feeling that all this deciphering what words and actions mean to these characters and then how they should proceed is not much different than reading Tom Clancy's Red October?"

How interesting! I haven't read Clancy, so can't comment. What do others think?

JoanK

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: October 14, 2013, 04:58:30 PM »
JOANP: " I couldn't help but notice that we are following Anne from one of these places to the next.  There's only one other character following her...is it too much of a coincidence that Captain Wentworth's turns up wherever Anne is?"

No, I didn't notice! How interesting.

About the structure of this book: I feel as if Austen is quietly building an ordered structure of blocks. When Louisa falls, it's as if she grabbed all the blocks and threw them into the air, to land in new ways and combinations. What do you think?

PatH

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Re: Persuasion by Jane Austen ~ October Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: October 15, 2013, 01:24:20 PM »
As we follow Anne around to different places, we are also watching a progression of lifestyles and manners.  We start with the elegant and lavish Kellynch, and the formality of Sir Walter and Elizabeth.

On to Uppercross, where the Musgroves live in a good style, but not as formal, and definitely old-fashioned.  Their daughters are importing the latest styles, though, and becoming more elegant and fashionable.  Charles and Mary have less money but more elegance than his parents.  The cottage is in the latest style (there was a cottage craze at the time), and although they don't have a carriage, Charles has a curricle, which is a small, light open vehicle, very stylish at the time.  They have breakfast later than the Musgroves too, which is an upper class thing to do.  The manners at Uppercross are more relaxed, casual and open, and very inclusive.  No one can manage to do anything without involve everyone else.

At Lyme we see the end of the scale.  The Harvilles are not well off, and live in a small, crowded house.  Their manners are simpler, warm, open and friendly, very willing to include Wentworth's friends.  Anne finds them delightful.

How does Anne behave in these different environments?  She fits in, while remaining herself, with her low-key very good manners, the moving backdrop behind her highlighting her quiet, gentle personality.

I'm not an expert on details of fashionable life in 1814, but the annotated book I have is full of such things, and although the overall picture is clear enough  anyway, it adds some richness to learn more about the background.