-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March 1
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefcvr3.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kamf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug )
1. "One of them called the shots. The other did what he was told." Death, observing the shivering gravediggers, asks "What if the other is a lot more than one?" What is he asking here?
2. Did you notice the mother had a return ticket? "A final soaking farewell." Do you see Liesel's mother - and Rosa Hubermann, for that matter, as victims of circumstance? Do you think "victim" describes Liesel?
3. Do you wonder why Hans and Rosa Hubermann ever married? Opposites attract? How did the author use metaphors to describe Liesel's new foster parents?
4. "Most Germans are very fond of pigs." What does the author mean by this? Did you notice that most of Rosa's foul words referred to a sau, a pig?
5. " Do you think all school children were conscripted into the BDM, Hitler's youth group? Do you know if they had a choice?
6. Can you name some of the defining moments for the children on Himmel St. when they realized a larger truth for the first time?
7. Can you think of one reason Hans decided to take Liesel to the bank of the Amper River for her lessons? Was it simply to get her away from Rosa?
8. Why had Rudy Steiner insisted that Liesel take a turn reading before the class? Were you prepared for her extreme reaction to her taunters? What set her off?
9. "Nazi Germany was built on anti-Semitism." Do you agree with this, or was there more to it? How do you understand Hans Hubermann's politics? Was his not joining the party not a mistake?
10. How did Liesel's adoration of Hitler turn to hatred? Liesel steals her second book, The Shoulder Shrug - one of three books that survived the bonfire. What is its significance? Why do you think it was included in this bonfire?
Relevant Links ~ A Brief History of German Rule (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) <><> The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions ~ (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
What an unexpected pleasure! I'm not sure I would have picked up The Book Thief, had it not been selected for discussion here. It's not another book reliving the horrors of the war and its effects on the innocent, is it? Or is it? To tell the truth, I am so taken with Zusak's writing, that I am not at all focused on the terrible backdrop of the story. Maybe this will change as we go on.
We promise to keep the discussion schedule current in the heading. If you look now, you will see that we will begin discussing the Prologue these first few days. If you've already read into Part I, please try not to comment until we all catch up with you. You may, however, refer backwards to earlier chapters in your posts - at any time.
I am so eager to hear your comments on the Prologue as we become familiar with Zusak's writing style. What do you think of keeping a growing list of your favorite examples of this? I love the off-beat metaphors. There are so many of them, I would like to keep them in a separate place to review at another time.
Welcome to all of you! We are looking forward to hearing from you soon and often.
-
Oh I am so excited to get this discussion going. I read this story in November and was just chomping at the bit to have someone to talk with about it.
I am not exaggerating when I say that this book, I now consider my "all time favorite" and like the rest of the bibliophiles here you understand that that is a long stretch. Right from the PROLOGUE- a mountain of rubble where the narrator introduces himself- the colors- and the book thief, to the very last word, I was enthralled and spellbound with this author's metaphors, similes and his commitment to the written word.
We begin always with OUR commitment to honor and respect each others thoughts and opinions as the discussion of this era can led to varied experiences, assessments and sentiments.
I echo Joan's WELCOME to each of you.
Let us, together enter the world of Lisel Meminger.
-
Today I started rereading "The Book Thief'.
The first time round I read for the story and loved the writing . This time I will attend to the rich language, offbeat metaphors
and the way Death describes it all.
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this wonderful book with a group of like minded souls.
-
Good morning, one and all. Once again, we welcome you.
Yeah it is March 1st and we may finally start our discussion together.
Our prologue begins:
a mountain range of rubble
in which our narrator introduces:
himself-the colors-and the book thief
I personally have focused on the colors throughout this entire story and marvel at the way our narrator's eye speaks to us of people, places and things "through colors."
It is brilliant. Quite honestly, I never took note of the fact that he opens our story with the "First the colors" until I reread this book.
What do you make of this mountain range of rubble that he sees? Do you see him as a HE?
Do you see him as benevolent, caring and compassionate?
I have been so anxious to get other people's opinions and ideas on these thoughts I am brimming over with questions. JoanP will have to reign me in while discussing this story. :o
LET US BEGIN!
-
This is my first time to participate in a book discussion.
I think what surprised me was the simplicity style of writing with such powerful meaning. EXCELLENT BOOK.
I did see him as a he.
I also thought of him with a protective outer shell around a true caring soul.
-
oxietxjenjen- that is quite a handle there. Shall we call you Jen? Oxie? Whatever you choose, we are most welcome to have you in here to discuss this story.
As a new participant let me just tell you a couple of things that may help you familiarize yourself with this board.
At the very top is the listing of what book we are discussing and a short synopsis.
Under that is the discussion schedule which we strictly adhere to as many folks are reading the story based on our schedule. As you can see, March 1st and 2nd, we will be discussing the prologue only.
Next we have some questions to ponder and discuss, in relation to our schedule, which help to facilitate discussion.
I think that you hit the nail right on the head when you said I think what surprised me was the simplicity style of writing with such powerful meaning.
I agree whole heartedly with you. His writing is like music, it sways and moves with each instance.
-
I love the almost poetic writing. It is as if death was writing down thoughts as they popped into his head and these thoughts are arranged, for the most part, without changing the bits into a long prose narrative. Each little bit stands alone but contributes to the whole.
-
I can see everyone is going to wax lyrical over Zusak's writing style. And why not? I think it's brilliant. Simple language to convey complex meaning.
I first read this book about four years ago and reread the Prologue last night. Instantly it brought the whole story back to the front of my mind.
The dark, dark, chocolate coloured sky - I think this has to be symbolic - of what I don't know. But maybe there is something brooding and heavy about a dark, dark, chocolate colour - as if it's something not like a yummy chocolate but like that very dark umber sometimes found in the darkest shadows of a painting. Perhaps it is meant to convey the idea of an imminent threat.
As for whether the narrator, Death is he/she. I don't see this being as either male or female or even really as a being - it just is.
-
"Your soul will be in my arms" is a comforting thought. Feel a little sorry for Death as he sees all of the misery in the world. I think of HIM.
-
Well, here we are, the lst of March, still a cold day in Ohio
This is a strange book, very different don't you all agree? As GUMTREE posted I don't understand what death has to do with chocolate. I love chocolate, I dislike the very idea of death. I am too familiar with it and I don't let myself dwell on it at all; at the same time I don't worry about it as we are asked by the narrator on the first page. To be familiar with it is not to fear it. I am not afraid. I know I will be lying there, caked in my own body someday.
I think we are being asked questions here of ourselves?
WELCOME, JEN to your first book discussion on SeniorLearn.
The author is also telling us: "I saw the book thief three times."
Is this a hint that the narrator/death just has three stories to tell?
-
I agree with you, Gum. Also with you, Kidsal. I find the thought of someone holding my soul in their arms very comforting.
I have read the prologue. To me, it is a bit depressing. I am hoping that the remainder of this book is more uplifting, for me.
Sheila
-
P.S. I do not consider the narrator male, or female. So far, I am wondering if the narrator IS death.
Sheila
-
I have seen a dark brown sky but never connected it to chocolate.I wanted to share it with you.I wrote Dark Brown Sky into Google and at # 4 a wonderful chocolaty image came up. If I knew how to transfer the link or the picture I would do so.
If anyone knows how to do the transfer I would appreciate a computer lesson.
Or just go to Google and put in Dark Brown Sky.
-
Not sure if it was discussed prior to this but in an interview with Markus Zusak he said "having Death narrate the story made sense because who is constantly hanging around in times of war? During war Death is worked to the point of exhaustian. He first thought to make Death sinister but he then decided Death might be afraid of us. What if he tells this story as a way of proving to himself that humans are actually worthwhile? He needs solace, he needs colors. He needs proof that humans are worth their existence."
-
First, the colors that death uses to describe his 3 meetings with "The Book Thief"---black, white, red. Is this perhaps symbolic of the colors on the Nazi flag, or am I "reaching"? I love the simple language in this book and the creative use of metaphors.
I did not think of the narrator as either male or female---he/she/it just was.
What did you think when the narrator said he used colors as a distraction--not a distraction from death, but from the left over survivors? "now and then, I witness the ones who are left behind, crumbling among the jigsaw puzzle of realization, despair and surprise. They have puntured hearts. They have beaten lungs." Wow, that paragraph took my breath away!
I read this book in May of 2009 and am getting even more out of it this go round.
Sally
-
Well look - a newcomer to our group and to SeniorLearn! So happy to welcome you, "Jen" - (it's Jen or "Okie" - your choice. Which do you prefer? ;))
And kidsal You've been missed! Welcome to both of you!
Really great posts in here today - it's that kind of book, isn't it?
Gum, I think it's really difficult NOT to "wax lyrical" over Zusak's writing style, ? It's intentional isn't it? To distract from the awful and harsh reality of this time in Germany. Sometimes I feel like examining the parts closely to see how the author has achieved the impressions, the mood - but there are times when I think it would be better to just read on, without stopping and let the mood take over. What do you do? Do you stop to consider the symbolism behind the colors, the "offbeat metaphors and the rich language" as Jude plans to do?
The style is quite simple as Jen mentions ...Zusak adored Hemingway, you can see his influence in the short sentences, his economy of words
Like Jen, I was surprised the the simplicity of style could evoke such powerful meaning. I'm happy we are examining this style in the Prologue. After that we can decide how closely we want to examine style over content.
Shall we keep a list of the "off-beat" or powerful metaphors and images that impressed you? Will you include them in your posts - maybe at the end of your posts? That would be easier to gather each day. Were there any in the Prologue you would like to include on this list?
-
Zusak has personalized Death to the point that he/she is a sympathetic character in the role of the narrator. Thanks for the information from that interview, Kidsal. The author says he made Death the narrator because death is always present in wartime - working to the point of exhaustion." Not sinister, but a sensitive person in need of solace - and distraction, moved by what he must contend with every day. I sense this person is a male too - not sure why. Sheila finds " the thought of someone holding my soul in their arms very comforting.' Me too. When I was seven, my mother died. I consoled myself with the belief that she would be waiting for me on the other side. Zusak's portrayal of Death is not at all threatening. Sheila, can you explain further what you find depressing?
Ella, your acceptance of death as normal, as inevitable and nothing to be dwelt on - reminds me of what Zusak wrote - "Here is a small fact: you are going to die." Hmmm - is this a small fact to the rest of you?
Why do you think Death would find the little book thief a person of interest? Ella asks about the three times
Death notices her. What did that mean to you? What is it about the girl that gets his attention in the Prologue?
Sally - isn't that so true - Death is harder the survivors, isn't it. Zusak's description of the ones left behind - "crumbling among the jigsaw puzzle of realization, despair and surprise. With punctured hearts. Beaten lungs." As you say, "wow."
-
Colors -
We're going to be talking a lot about the importance the author puts on color as Andy saysfrom the beginning to the end. - Today you helped with two of them - both seem to be referring to the sky...
1. ...the dark,dark chocolate sky...
Gum sees it "brooding and heavy." And then Jude actually found a photo of a chocolate-colored sky. (Jude, stay tuned for directions on posting photos and links tomorrow morning, okay?)
(http://backgrounds.mysitemyway.com/wp-content/Userfiles/Galleries/cache/438__624x500_abstract-cloudy-sky-000438-faded-dark-brown.jpg)
Here is the site where this photo came from, but I don't think it explains how the sky came to be this color - Chocolate colored sky (http://backgrounds.mysitemyway.com/free-background-image/29/website-wallpaper-id/438/style-id/4/abstract-cloudy-sky/faded-dark-brown/)
2. the three colors that describe the sky at Death's three meetings with the book thief - black, white, red -
Sally asks if the colors of the sky described on Death's three meetings with the book thief are symbolic of the colors on the Nazi flag - Here's the flag - what do you think?
The flag of Germany has not always used black, red and gold as its colors. After the Austro–Prussian War in 1866, the Prussian-dominated North German Confederation adopted a tricolor of black-white-red as its flag. This flag later became the flag of the German Empire, formed following the unification of Germany in 1871, and was used until 1918. Black, white and red were reintroduced as the German national colors with the establishment of Nazi Germany in 1933.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg/125px-Flag_of_Nazi_Germany_%281933-1945%29.svg.png)
-
I found the prologue rather dark. Perhaps it would be wise for me to reread it. I am not sure why, but talking about colors so much, especially dark chocolate, seemed dark, to me.
Sheila
-
Was just about to turn off my computer for tonight when I spotted your post, Sheila. How about this...when you reread the "chocolate" chapter, notice that the title of this chapter is DEATH AND CHOCOLATE. There's a paragraph in this chapter that talks of the chocolate sky in terms of a "flavor" - rather than a color...I'm not sure if this is significant - but clearly Zusak is trying to tell us something about chocolate here or he wouldn't have put it in the title.
Sweet dreams...
-
I do think the narrator is a he, a youthful man trying not to be made old by his work, despite the fact that he has been doing this work for a long time. He uses colors as a distraction from his work.
He made a mistake in watching the girl, the book thief. I think the colors red, white, and black mentioned on page 14 refer to the black and white pages of the book with the red of blood over them.
While I enjoyed reading the prologue, with its unique style and use of color imagery, I don’t think I could handle reading a whole book in this style.
-
Thank you for the welcome. You can call me jen or okie or jenny. :)
-
Good morning. I thought I would drop by and read the posts. I read
"The Book Thief" last year and found it impressive, if sometimes very
unsettling. I didn't feel I wanted to read it again...at least not now...but
I will be interested to see what you all have to say about it.
I like your take on Death, KIDSAL, that he is telling this story
because it helps him feel humans are worthwhile. And my thought
about the 'color' of the souls he carries away is that it reflected the
kind of person they were. Dark souls or light, clear colors or muddy?
-
Good morning to you BABI and to others. JOANP: I took a look at the link in the heading of the history of Germany. A rather young country isn't it but now - "Europe's largest economy and second most populous nation." Amazing history!
"It's the leftover humans."
Death doesn't like those and our book thief is one. I don't know what to think of this narration.
-
Good Morning!
I love all of these posts and am over whelmed with each different viewpoint offered.
In regards to the "chocolate" sky it brought to mind the seeds of the cacao tree- that in itself is offensively bitter and must be fermented to develop the flavor.
Is the author saying that death is bitter/sweet?
When I look at the picture Joan posted I see a LIGHT, perhaps a welcoming light from above.
Babi- please stay with us. Your insights are always "right on." Perhaps with the 2nd reading you will be able to enjoy the story in a different way.
Laura- funny, but I saw the "Grim Reaper" as a young man, as well, enjoying a billion or so flavors, none of them quite the same. He says "It helped him relax." what do you make of that?
Sally says The Book Thief"---black, white, red. Is this perhaps symbolic of the colors on the Nazi flag, or am I "reaching"?
Absolutely not, I think that is intentional. He begins with "white" right at the beginning of this story.
White denotes reverence, purity, simplicity, and innocence. So much contrast here in the beginning with the blinding white snow. The guards with their RED faces against this sterile back ground.
-
In the prologue again he mentions RED, when he next sees the Book Thief."
Red- "Home cooked red"- the color of blood, as he describes the bombing of a German town. He says:
"I hang suspended, until a septic truth bleeds toward clarity." That's when I see them formulate (the colors):
Red: White: Black"
That, my friends is brilliant writing.
-
I did not find this dark at all Ella. Perhaps it's because I've seen so much of death and dying in my profession or perhaps it's because of my spiritual beliefs, but like Joan, I feel that when my imminent death arrives there will be many who have gone before to reach down and "lift me up." I would honor the likes of this grim reaper to take me in his arms and care for me as I am removed from this earth.
-
I found the book heavy, sorrowful and excellent. I found humor in, "Who could step in while I take a break in your stock-standard resort-style vacation destination, whether it be tropical or of the ski trip variety"
Does this equate to tourist traps?
-
Why does the girl interest the narrator?
I think he answers that at the end of Death and Chocolate.
"It is the story of one of those perpetual survivors-an expert at being left behind".
In other words Death does not carry her away. She manages to escape his embrace although all the odds are against it.
She seems so likely to follow the fate of millions but she tiptoes between the raindrops of death. This interests Death as it does us. How does she manage this feat?
Like Ulysses or King David or so many other heroes we want to know her secret. We follow her story since it may give us a hint of how a child lives heroically while all around her people are dieing.She seems a most unlikely heroine.. Even Red Riding Hood had more immediate presence than she.And yet she survives.
-
Babi - really glad to have you with us - your comment on the sky colors on the day you are carried away might very well reflect the kind of person you were. This might explain what Death means when he says ""Your soul will be in my arms - a color will be perched on my shoulder."
He asks, what color will the sky be on the day you are carried away?
I can see where you'd find this kind of talk "unsettling." "Heavy" Jenny writes that it is heavy sorrowful...but finds humor in it at the same time. (Aren't we thankful for the humor?) Death needs a vacation, but he has not substitute to stand in while he heads off to a resort. So, to distract himself from his gruesome task, the black skies of death, he takes a chocolate break now and then- This works for me. Laura, I think this does sound like a young man's approach to a tedious job.
Ella, I'm not sure Death actually dislikes the survivors. He usually tries to avoid them, their grief. But we're told he makes a mistake by watching the little book thief.
A grief-stricken little girl out in the snow with her mother and little brother's body. . Andy mentions the red faces of the guards in the snow. What kind of a train was this? Guards? On a train? Strangely cold and pityless aren't they?
Jude, I like the way you have cast Liesal Memnger as a heroine - "an expert at being left behind." Are survivors stronger? smarter, or just luckier than those who don't make it?
I can see where Death would be curious about this phenomenon.
-
Let's begin the discussion of Parts I and II today. Please don't feel at all confined to the questions in the heading. We really want to hear your impressions and observations, after all. We are still interested to hear from you on the Prologue. There was so much packed into those opening pages! Clearly there is more to discuss in the Prologue.
Laura, I agree with you - it would be exhausting to read a whole book in symbols through the eyes of Death. Though Death is the narrator of the Prologue, it was just the Prologue to the story.
Let's continue watch for the author's stunning off-beat metaphors though - and keep a list of those you have noticed as we proceed. Especially colors. Zusak seems to use metaphors to describe his characters, mood and atmosphere. This would account for the economy of words we have been noticing..
-
ALF asked, Laura- funny, but I saw the "Grim Reaper" as a young man, as well, enjoying a billion or so flavors, none of them quite the same. He says "It helped him relax." What do you make of that?
With the stressful and sorrowful job that Death has, he has to find some distraction and joy in his life in order to be able to continue to function. Otherwise I think he would be overcome with sorrow and hopelessness.
-
JUDE, don't you think the heroic types make really large targets? It
seems reasonable that the quiet, unobtrusive, unnoticed souls are the
most likely to slip through the cracks and survive.
JOANP, it seems likely the train was one of those the Nazis used to
shift people around where they pleased. Were the concentration camps up
and running at this point, I wonder?
-
I noted this metaphor, the last paragraph of Part One:
Trust me, though, the words were on their way, and when they arrived, Liesel would hold them in her hands like the clouds, and she would wring them out like the rain.
I thought it was beautiful.
-
What good questions, JOAN, they make me think harder. And I did want to tell you that the sky picture was beautiful in a very ANGRY way.
The first question - the quote - I think portrays the country of Germany perhaps. ONE (the Fuhrer) called the shots, the other (everyone else, the public) did what they were told. THE OTHER IS A LOT MORE THAN ONE.
Wouldn't it be hard to be a German and read this book?
The mother is sleeping while her boy is coughing intensely and dies there on the train? Who does the shaking?
Our survivor is a very hardy little girl.
-
BABI, I pencilled in a note after this sentence: "The day was gray, the color of Europe." My pencilled note says WHAT YEAR?
I can't find a year in these pages.
Didn't you think Rosa's face - "creased-up cardboard" - was so descriptive. I know that face.
-
:) Marking my place so I can follow the discussion.
I just began reading "The Book Thief" yesterday - at the doctor's office of all places! I'm not quite as enthralled with the writing style as most of you seem to be - but I "got into it" and had no trouble following the story.
Two comments off-topic:
Leisl's last name is just one letter different from my maiden name! I have some letters written to my Dad just after WWI from a branch of the family still in Germany - but the ancestors arrived in the USA even before the Civil War.
Editing: Perhaps I should mention that my family were not and are not Jewish. German original immigrants were Lutheran. Don't know if that means anything re: the plot development...but one never knows.
Okietexjenjen: Nice to see someone from "my neck of the woods". :) I am a Texan only by marriage. On which side of the Red RIver do you live?
Looking forward to the continuing discussion.
-
I'm reading the book on my Kindle, so it's difficult to know which chapter I am reading. Is anyone else reading this on a Kindle? If so, are you having the same problem?
I believe our little heroine IS Lutheran.
-
Callie, so happy you are joining us. And countrymm too! Welcome to both of you!
Callie's observation that German immigrants were originally Lutheran that Liesel's family was also Lutheran - and countrymm's note that Liesel comes from a Lutheran family reminds me of the reason she had a difficult time adjusting to the Catholic nuns in her new school. Does anyone recall if the Hubermann's were Catholic too? Was that the reason Liesel attended a Catholic school?
Eager to hear what you think of the author's style, Callie. Especially his decision to use Death as the narrator. Have you ever read a book shown through the eyes of the Grim Reaper? Laura has described his job as "stressful and sorrowful." Kidsal suggests that the reason Death is interested in Liesel is because he needs to know that there are worthwhile humans. I really like that idea. Is this the reason he lets her "survive"?
Babi, I'll agree that heroic types make big targets and that "quiet, unobtrusive, unnoticed souls are the
most likely to slip through the cracks and survive." BUT don't you see Liesel becoming less unobtrusive and unnoticed as the story goes on - I'm thinking of her feistiness in the soccer game on Himmel St. - oh, and the big fight with her taunters at her school. I hope this doesn't damage her changes of survival.
But why would she be in danger? She's German, not Jewish, and a member of Hitler's Youth group too.
ps ~ Kindle users, would it help if the titles of each part were included in the Discussion schedule? Part I "the gravedigger's handbook; Part II the shoulder shrug
Will that work or do you also need the name of Part III mein kamf
Let me put that in the schedule and see if that helps you because I know we have several Kindlers in our group.
Did it - will you look at the discussion schedule and see if that works with your Kindles?
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March 1
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefcvr3.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kamf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug )
1. "One of them called the shots. The other did what he was told." Death, observing the shivering gravediggers, asks "What if the other is a lot more than one?" What is he asking here?
2. Did you notice the mother had a return ticket? "A final soaking farewell." Do you see Liesel's mother - and Rosa Hubermann, for that matter, as victims of circumstance? Do you think "victim" describes Liesel?
3. Do you wonder why Hans and Rosa Hubermann ever married? Opposites attract? How did the author use metaphors to describe Liesel's new foster parents?
4. "Most Germans are very fond of pigs." What does the author mean by this? Did you notice that most of Rosa's foul words referred to a sau, a pig?
5. " Do you think all school children were conscripted into the BDM, Hitler's youth group? Do you know if they had a choice?
6. Can you name some of the defining moments for the children on Himmel St. when they realized a larger truth for the first time?
7. Can you think of one reason Hans decided to take Liesel to the bank of the Amper River for her lessons? Was it simply to get her away from Rosa?
8. Why had Rudy Steiner insisted that Liesel take a turn reading before the class? Were you prepared for her extreme reaction to her taunters? What set her off?
9. "Nazi Germany was built on anti-Semitism." Do you agree with this, or was there more to it? How do you understand Hans Hubermann's politics? Was his not joining the party not a mistake?
10. How did Liesel's adoration of Hitler turn to hatred? Liesel steals her second book, The Shoulder Shrug - one of three books that survived the bonfire. It smolders against her chest. Do you think this is significant?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html); The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
I just got my book today, and am hurrying to catch up with you and join the discussion.
Maybe I'm getting rigid in my old age (in which case I need to read books like this. At first, I found the style of the prologue unsettling, but am coming to apprciate it. The author seems to "tone it down" just the right amount in the body to be sustainable over a long book.
Now, to wake up my sense of color and read on.
-
I got my book Sunday, and have now read up to date and caught up on the pre-discussion and discussion. I'm having trouble figuring out what to say about the book, though. At first, I wondered if I would get tired of the disjointed style--little splashes of insight splatted on the page like blobs of paint--but I'm getting into the spirit of it. It's certainly working well for him; I'll probably end up deciding, like Gumtree, that it's brilliant.
-
There are excerpts of each chapter of the book available on line and extensive discussions on the web. I've read them carefully. The language is matter-of-fact, conveying both innocence and simplicity and (to me)
seems aimed at an adolescent readership.
Because I was in Europe beforeI have tried, during the month-long prepdiscudssion, to comment on the historic background of the story. I will answer any other questions fully and candidly, painful and upsetting though they are, but I will not read the book.
Question 4.
"Most Germans are very fond of pigs."
Ohhhhhhhhh
Perhaps the author was thinking in culinary terms of "pork"?
That would be true certainly for Bavaria, where the story takes place, but not for MOST Germans.
A Sau is an adult female hog. Used as a swear word it is one of the gravest, most insulting invectives in German and means filthy swine.
The hair on the back of my neck is standing up as I write this. I have zero toleranace for abusive language.
Question 5
Yes, school girls and boys were automatically drafted in to what was called Hitler Jugend (Hitler Youth).
The boys in the Jungvolk, the girls in the Bund deutscher Mädchen (BdM).
Under a dictatorial regime people do as they are told, they follow orders. There was no choice.
Question 6
Did ou know that Himmel in German means heaven? Might this be an ironic reference? Surely it was not heaven for Liesel.
Question 9
With respect, the quoted sentence is worded ;poorly in my humble opinion.
Antisemitism was definitely built in to the Nazi doctrine, Hitler's pet project, his obsession. He talked incessantly ad nauseam about the Aryan Rce and its superiority. It became his creed. It began to affect the populace slowly, it crept into the textbooks gradually. Between 1933 and 1938 Jews just "disappeared". The shunning of the Jews, their persecution, began in 1938. People were afraid. All people.
When Hitler came to power in 1933, my father was cautious. My mother became an enthusiastic follower. His picture hung in the foyer. His picture was in every classroom. The indoctrination was constant and relentless.
I remember the surprise, the consternation when my father had to prove that there were no Jews in his family tree, or he would have lost his job.
Not only books by Jewish writers were condemned but their art as well. It was called "entartete Kunst" = decadent art and banned. The book burnings were deliberate symbolic acts of contempt, born of hatred.
How can one forget horrors like that? Especially those one has experienced?
-
Thank you Traude.
And we MUST not forget. That is why books such as this one are so important. They must be written and equally must be read especially by those such as myself who did not experience the horror. The story must be told again and again and to new generations as well, lest we do forget.
-
Traude, I hope you can stand it to stick with us; your input is so valuable.
"Germans...are very fond of pigs". I took this to be irony, since we had just been treated to a lot of pig-related expletives. It's good to learn just how very offensive these expressions are. That's something that's quite difficult for a non-native speaker to judge, since it's all context rather than the literal meaning of the words.
Entartete Kunst: there was an exhibit of "degenerate art" in Munich in 1937, paired with a "Great German Art" exhibit.
http://www.olinda.com/ArtAndIdeas/lectures/ArtWeDontLike/entarteteKunst.htm (http://www.olinda.com/ArtAndIdeas/lectures/ArtWeDontLike/entarteteKunst.htm)
People lined up to see it much more than the approved art. In the early 1990s, there was an exhibit here (Washington, DC) which did a very good job of reconstructing the original exhibit. Evidently quite a lot of the works escaped the flames. There was a lot of supplemental material, plus a few of of Hitler's paintings, which ranged from wishy-washy scenery to corny idealistic.
-
JoanP, I don't think Death "lets her survive". Death has no choice. He simply picks up the departed souls and carries them on. He's just doing his job.
According to what I have read, many people feared the Nazis--not just the Jews. Anyone they perceived as "different" or a threat had reason to fear. Once Hitler came into power, many Germans were afraid to express opposition. That's what happens when "hate-mongers" gain leadership. I am from the south and know that many "whites" stood up for injustices and were "visited" by the KKK with many warnings and much injury. I think that many people are unaware of the danger until the radicals have gained power, and then most people are afraid to act openly.
Hatred is a hunger that cannot be sated.
Sally
-
But why would she be in danger?
I can't really answer that, PAT. It was Death who identified her as a
survivor. May he will explain that more fully in time.
GUM, there is an article in last month's "Smithsonian" magazine, about attempts to
preserve Auschwitz. My first reaction was 'Why would anyone want to preserve the site
of so much horror. Burn it to the ground and scatter the ashes!" But my second, and
better, thought was just what you expressed. We must no allow what happened there
to be forgotten.
-
Welcome to you, Traudee, and JoanK and Pat H too! Aren't we blessed to have so many of you join in the discussion. I'm sure our appreciation and understanding of this book will be all the richer. It already is!
PatH, Zusak's metaphors are contagious. "...the disjointed style--little splashes of insight splatted on the page like blobs of paint."
I think we ought to include our posters' metaphors along with Zusak's on the special page we are getting together today. Please be sure to post those that catch your attention as we move along.
Traudee, we understand why reading this book would be painful for you to relive this period of your life - as PatH points out, your input is invaluable to us and we are so grateful that you are here to help us understand what it was like for the German citizens at the time.
Perhaps when you see the collection of metaphors and images Zusak has used to tell his story, you will be able to experience second-hand, his talent and the originality of his writing style.
From your post yesterday -
Pigs - "Most Germans are not fond of pork." I can see from PatH's comment - that this would be irony since we have just been treated to a lot of pig-related expletives. It was shocking to hear these words come from the mouth of Liesel's foster mother, don't you think? Do you think this shows that she was a coarse person, not as well-brought up as that house-painter of a husband she keeps putting down as beneath her? You don't ever hear Hans talking like that. How quickly Liesel picks the expletives from mama, though. Sad.
Himmel - Yes, Heaven St. It's got to be more irony, don't you think? Mostly poor folk live here, but they are the working poor. They have food to eat. Liesel's foster family seems better off than her own family. Otherwise her mother would not have given up Liesel and her little brother. The boy who died on the train seemed sick and malnourished. Perhaps as the story progresses the name of the street will take on more significance.
"Nazi Germany was built on antisemitism" Traudee tells us that Antisemitism was definitely "built into the Nazi doctrine." His creed was the superiority of the Aryan Race. We read that you were either with the Fuhrer or against him. Sally reminds us that many people feared the Nazis--not just the Jews. Anyone they perceived as "different" or a threat had reason to fear. Once Hitler came into power, many Germans were afraid to express opposition. Those who were not with him disappeared. Look how fearful Rudy Steiner's parents were when he publicly emulated Jesse Owens, a black man. He wanted a populace of Germans who were blond and blue eyed and subserviant.
Zusak makes a point of describing eye color - do you remember how he describes Liesel's?
-
Babi, if memory serves, the story begins in 1939 when Liesel arrives in Munich with her mother. I remember how Zusak describes all of those people coming off the train - "a train packed with humans. The passengers slid out as if from a torn package" Ella posted yesterday "the day was gray, the color of Europe." Europe seems to be torn package too, no?
I found the chapter of Liesel's arrival at Himmel Street after being taken from her mother, most wrenching. Traumatic. The bedwetting incidents indicate just how disturbed she still is, years later. Why did her mother leave her? She cannot understand this. What do you think happened to her? Do you think she returned home? Or?
During the Pre-discussion Traudee brought us some information on the camps
"As I said, the early Nazi concentration camps were built originally for civilian political opponents: Communists, Socialists, "sexual deviants", and others. Between 1933 and 1945, 20,000 such camps were built in Germany and in the occupied countries (Poland, the Netherlands for example)."
This site tells of the first of the "political prisons" - Dachau (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214). Since it is located just outside of Munich and the story is set in Munich, it might be worth reading up on it.
What do you think - should these camps be burned to the ground? I've never been able to learn for certain what the average German citizen knew about what was happening in the camps - until they were liberated and the horrible truth was shown to the world.
-
Hello there
My name is Deb and I accessed your site via ‘Story of Civilization’, Non-fiction and finally your readers group.
The book looked so interesting I looked it up in the library, and have a copy for the month. It was in the young adults section I was surprised to discover.
What a book! I quite often find ironically that my current read relates to another in some way; and last year about this time I find I had read
‘The Fetch’ by Laura Whitcomb`
Calder, aged in earth years 19 –in death years 330- he belongs to the Order of the Fetch, & escorts the newly dead to Heaven--the book takes place in the early 1900s he as he steps back to Earth, an unheard of thing to do for a Fetch---he steps into Rasputin's body..................
It was an excellent read!
www.readersopinions.com
Above is the database where I’ve kept track of the books I’ve read since 2001 and I read this book mid March last year
I found the idea so intriguing & was hoping to read another of this type, and …well here with your group, it is
I feel this ‘death’ character is such an entity---- kindhearted
At the graveside, he bowed his head with the others…he waved at them as they left even though no one noticed them…I feel empathy for him/her/it with the range of thoughts, feeling, job-related conflicts, insights that he/she/it shares
I am a Canadian, living in Central Ontario in the summer/fall--Brownsville, Texas fall/winter
My husband, Glenn & I travel in our RV with our 4 animals, Billie, our collie-x, & 3 cats, Casey, Kipper, & Callie (our little Texan)
Deb
-
BOOKAD-- well bless by soul, it is a very large welcome that we offer to you. Please come in, sit down and join our group. We have quite a selection of participants, from all over the world as well as an eclectic choice of books that we discuss.
Did Robby welcome you into his Story of Civilazation? He's been with us from the onset and does a brilliant job vacillitating that discussion.
Here we respect and discuss any thoughts and opinions that you are willing to bring to our table. Again, a hearty welcome to you.
I hope that you, your hubby and animals have managed to stay warm this winter. I live in Florida and haven't been out of jeans and sweat shirts for 3 months.
-
Joan, I don't think it mattered if Liesel was a Jew or not. any one who was a dissenter would have been in jeopardy. Hitler didn't allow many to practice protestations or to agitate other's thoughts.
Poor Liesel, I empathized with her immediately. Not only did she experience the death of her brother but like those other people she was being displaced as well -- to the Hubermanns.
How can a child survive these traumas, all at once? She "wished that she was pale enough to disappear altogether."
Thank the Lord for Papa who coddled her and touched her heart.
She noticed the strangeness of his eyes: They were made of kindness and silver.
"like soft silver, melting."
Mama rules with the iron fist and papa's eyes are soft metal of silver.
WOW-- speaking of contrast. How's that for metaphors Joan?
Papa also played the accordion for them. "She especially loved to see him hit the silver, sparkled button- the C major, and papa made that accordion live."
The author interjects a beautiful thought right here.
How do you know if something's alive?
You check for breathing.
Just as she had to do with her little brother.
-
Keeping in mind we are only reading Parts I and II this week, which one of those kids would you gravitate towards if you were little Liesel?
Can we take a moment to look at these kids.
Rudy- the little kid next door who likened himself to Jesse Owens
Tommy Muller- a deaf child with tics (he reminded me of the Owen Meany)
Pfiffikus-the abusive kid with WHITE hair, a black raincoat, brown pants, decomposting shoes and (oh what a mouth). He constantly whiltled the Radetzky March.
LISTEN HERE TO THE VIENNA CONCERT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zlE5ipwna8)
This was the kid who whirled abuses- any imprression of serenity was violently interrupted, for his voice was brimming with rage.
It sounds to me as if this kid has already been indoctrinated.
-
I have many thoughts bouncing around in my head.
As for who Liesel’s mother was and what happened to her, I reference page 115 of the paperback:
The Fuhrer.
He was the they that Hans and Rosa Hubermann were talking about that evening when she first wrote to her mother. She knew it, but she had to ask.
“Is my mother a communist?” Staring. Straight ahead. “They were always asking her things, before I came here.”
Hans edged forward a little, forming the beginnings of a lie. “I have no idea --- I never met her.”
“Did the Fuhrer take her away?”
The question surprised them both, and it forced Papa to stand up. He looked at the brown shirted men taking to the pile of ash with shovels. He could hear them hacking into it. Another lie was growing in his mouth, but he found it impossible to let it out. He said, “I think he might have, yes.”
Since the book began in 1939, I assume that Liesel’s mother must have been in some counter Hitler movement or resistance group. She was under suspicion and so brought her children to a safe place to protect them. Unfortunately, only Liesel survived the journey. Based on Hans’ reaction, he did know Liesel’s mother. Further, I think he believes she has been turned into ashes in one of the camps because the auther has Hans thinking while looking at the pile of ashes. No coincidence, I think.
I am interested to see how this part of the story develops. Where is Hans playing the accordion at night and is he really playing the accordion?
-
A couple of thoughts on metaphors:
“On the other was the squat shape of Rosa Hubermann, who looked like a small wardrobe with a coat thrown over it.” (page 27)
That was a funny metaphor! This next one is puzzling to me, from pages 99-100:
There was pulse and yellow light, all together.
Her breathing calmed, and a stray yellow tear trickled down her face.
No matter how many times she tried to imagine that scene with the yellow light that she knew had been there, she had to struggle to visualize it.
The strange thing was she was vaguely comforted by that thought, rather than distressed by it.
I think the yellow light was the soul of Liesel’s mother, coming to Liesel at the time that Liesel realized that her mother was dead. Then she shed a yellow tear for her mother.
What do others think?
-
Laura- In regards to Rosa's squat shape, I believe you've picked up on the humor that Zusak laces and weaves in and out of the story. There are numerous sentences like that one and as sad as this story can be, joy creeps through with the talent of the author. We will continue to look for these statements.
There was pulse and yellow light, all together.
AH -ha you've picked up another color reference. Yellow is important in this story as Schiller Strasse- The Road of yellow stars. Hitler had the Star of David plastered throughout the neighborhoods on all of the doors of the Jews.
Another moving quote is:
These houses were almost like lepers
.
Aw-- that is so painful to me when I read that sentence. Like lepers, as if they were infected and contagious after they had been attacked by hatred.
Yes, it very well could have been the thoughts of her mother Laura .
Her breathing calmed, and a stray yellow tear trickled down her face.
"Had it been dark, she realized, that tear would have been black."
-
It may be helpful to know that the population of Bavaria has always been exclusively Roman Catholic.
Hence it is safe to assume that the Hubermanns were Catholics.
Liesel was brought in from the "outside", conceivably from a region where Catholics were not the only Christian denomination.
A crucial question may be when this took place, BEFORE or AFTER 1933. Another question is what exactly happened to Liesel's mother, and why. Liesel's being Lutheran was uncommon , yes, but hardly a reason to endanger her.
-
KINDLER answer here.
Yes, it worked! I checked the additions you made to the reading schedule and I'm clear now on how far I should read. I am LOVING this book. Every time I happen upon a "beautiful WORD phrase", I bookmark it on my Kindle and then just stop reading and I revel in the feelings the author has created in me. What a delight.
I remember checking this book out of the library several years ago and not finding the time to get to it. Maybe that's for the best because now I have you to share the book with. Thanks for the discussion.
-
Countrymm, I think this is a particularly good book to share, because there are so many little good touches that it's easy to miss, and others call them to one's attention. It's good you're with us.
Traude, I think the book starts in 1939. It's becoming clear that Liesel's parents were communists. On page 115, Liesel asks her adoptive father "Is my mother a communist?....They were always asking her things, before I came here."
She asks "Did the Fuhrer take her away?" He looks at the ashes of burned books and can't bring himself to lie: "I think he might have, yes." Then, when she says she hates the Fuhrer, he doesn't comfort her as he wants to, but slaps her and says "Don't ever say that!" He's protecting her.
-
PatH, Thank you.
Oh yes, Communists, that would do it. They were H's most most tenacious, most dangerous adversaries in his climb to power.
-
Liesel's foster mother does raise one's eyebrows, doesn't she. She
strikes me as the kind of person who prides herself on being blunt and
forthright. No sugar coatings for her.
So many Jews lost their lives under the Nazis, we tend to forget other
groups suffered also. Gypsies, I recall, blacks, homosexuals,...anyone
who did not fit into the grand Aryan race. A terrifying time and place
to live.
A warm welcome, BOOKAD. I live in Texas, near Houston, and I see you
travel as far south in Texas as you can get w/o finding yourself in
Mexico. You can generally count on keeping warm down there.
ALF, LOL! I'm sure you meant Robby was 'facilitating' the discussion.
Vacillation has a very different meaning. :D
LAURA, I think that Liesel has a painful memory that involved a yellow
light that cast it's color on the event. It is something she knows
happened, but she cannot quite remember. But she knows it was bad and
finds it comforting that she cannot remember it.
-
Good morning, Babi!
I'm smiling at the facilitate/vacillate typo - quite often we faciliators do vascillate, n'est-ce pas? ;)
I'll echo the welcomes, Debbie. Delighted that you found us! And that you located the book - in the young adults section of the library! I can't get over that. Someone ought to talk to librarians about this. Maybe a compromise - one copy in the YA and another in the Adults section.
We are all getting used to this concept of Death - as a "kindhearted" entity - I had forgotten his goodbye wave at the boy's gravesite, the one that no one noticed. Ah well, he'll have another chance someday...
Countrymm, I'm glad adding the titles to the discussion schedule helped our Kindler. as PatH points out, this is a good book to share because there are so many good touches it's easy to miss them. We hope that you will share some of those beautiful word phrases you have been bookmarking . The page with the growing collection of shared phrases and metaphors should be ready today...I hope. Please everyone, continue to post those that caught your attention.
Andy, you mentioned old Pfiffikus as one of the kids of Himmel St.. He certainly acts like one, doesn't he. I'm finding that Zusak uses some of his best metaphors when describing adults. One of my favorites is the candy shop lady - Her shop is white and bloodless. She really scares me. Every little metaphor used to describe her scares me. She's looking for trouble, for dissenters - surely she will find one or more before the story is told.
-
Traudee asks, just where is Liesel's mother? I wonder about that too.
Babi, in the Dachau link - I think I'll put that in the heading because it goes into the description of the place in detail - the inhabitants as well as the facility itself. All sorts of dissenters, as you mention. Including communists. I don't think the crematoria were constructed yet. The date is in the link....I think in 1939 that these were political prisons...I don't think they were killing people - yet!
Laura, Liesel's father was a Communist too, right? So Hans and Rosa are aware that the girl's parents have been apprehended, but is it certain that either one of them have died? Although it is a given that her mother is not coming back. I'm seeing that it is a one way trip out of town.
So if there is a prison there on the Amper River in Munich, doesn't it seem possible that her mother is in that very prison? If so, does Hans know that when he takes Liesel to sit beside the river for her lessons, just meters from the prison wall?
Dachau (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214).
-
Oh My- Thank you Babi for picking up on my typo. ahahha- I'm sure Robby would not appreciate me referring to him as indecisive. My fingers move faster than my brain.
-
About Liesel's parents Communist affiliation it is quite spelled out near the beginning of the book. On page 31 (hard covered copy), near the beginning of the chapter Growing Up A Saumensch there is a whole bit about her Father being a communist. I quote from the book:
....she had dangerous eyes. Dark Brown. You didn't really want brown eyes in Germany about that time. Perhaps she had received them from her father.............There was really only one thing she knew about her father. it was a label she did not understand.
*** A STRANGE WORD** *
Kommunist
She'd heard it several times in the past few years
"Communist".
.....rooms filled with questions. And that word. That strange word that was always there somewhere, standing in the corner watching from the dark.......
The paragraph goes on about how her mother was hounded about this. Perhaps this is the reason that Leisels mother
gave her up to foster care. She was trying to shield her from herFather,s fate. Many Jewish families also gave their young children up to German Christain families, hoping thus to save their lives.
Poverty may have had something to do with it. However poverty was a result of the discrimination against Communists and not the origin of the families problems. Even though the family was not Jewish they were , like Gypsies, Jews etc., on the extermination list.
-
The author does tell us that Liesel's father was a communist, but yet he lets you share in the Liesel's feeling of vague menace: there's SOMETHING but she doesn't quite know what. That's good writing.
I love Zusak's images too: only occasionly they are strained, and you think "he's trying too hard". But most of them carry you along.
-
DEB: I've always wanted to go to Brownsville. It's known among birders like me as a place where you can see birds that aren't found anywhere else in the US. Are you interested in birds?
-
Well I finally found the discussion of the book. I had lost it and was feeling left out because I was missing it. ;) I hope that I do not get lost again. I am reading on my Kindle too.
JoanGrimes
-
The comments on Liesel’s mother and father were helpful. History is a weak subject of mine. I didn’t realize that Communists were targeted by Hitler. I also missed the reference to Liesel’s father as a Communist. The link on the prison was very informative, so I do understand that both of Leisel’s parents could be alive, but is that what the author wanted us to think at this point in the book? I also wonder if the author expected the reader to be able to deduce that the prison on the river could hold Liesel’s parents. In all honesty, with respect, I feel like I know too much information now, have only read through the assigned sections.
-
Good morning!
JoanG, we wondered where you were. Please jump right in. Two things that might help you catch up - for you Kindlers, we have included the names of the Chapters in the Discussion schedule in the heading so that you know where we are. Also, in the Relevent links, we are including the guide questions for previous chapters - in this case, the Prologue.
Welcome - at last! ;)
Laura, I'm not sure what the author wants us to believe at this point. (I haven't read any further than these early chapters either.) To me, it seems he wants to get the point across that these children of Himmel St. are coming to the realization that their lives are changing, that things will never be the same again. Have you noticed that this realization usually comes with a slap in the face - or a beating with a wooden spoon?
Jude, do we know for a fact that Liesel's mother was a communist? It her father was taken away, wouldn't her mother have been taken too - at the same time? Both Rosa and Hans are aware that something has happened to her though. Perhaps she died of the same illness - or perhaps she IS in the prison, right there in Dachau. Laura, the author has told us that the prison - Dachau, is located beside the river, not more than 30 meters where Hans has begun to take Liesel for her lessons. That's all he has really told us. The rest is just suggestion.
JoanK, I agree, the author has the ability to convey meaning through suggestion. Liesel senses without knowing. When you come across an example of where you think the Zusak may have "tried to hard," will you share with us? Or do you think that the story is told so metaphorically (did I just make up a new word?) - that it comes across as too much...
What do you think? Did Zusak sit down with the intention to tell the story in metaphor and then labor over them to get them just right? Or do they just flow from his pen? I'm wondering whether is earlier books are written in this manner.
Jude, I noted Liesel's "dangerous brown eyes" too. Why dangerous? From her father, perhaps? Is the suggestion here that he was not a German? I'm wondering if those brown eyes will cause her to be suspect as the story develops. The author makes much of eye color - and hair color, doesn't he? The bluer, the blonder, the better. Andy, Hans' steely, silvery eyes are gray then? . Not true blue like Rosa's. My father's eyes were gray too. Yet he would have called them "blue". I am loving this writing!
-
It never ceases to amaze me that while Hitler promoted the blue eyed, blond Aryan THE superior race, he himself was relatively short, dark eyed and dark hair. People bought into this and yet he was the one in power.
A word about "Mein Kampf": I was in a high school class with a girl who actually read it. She commented that while Hitler started out sounding reasonable she could actually see through his writing how nutty (my word) he became as she progressed through the book. She made it sound as if he was going nuts while he wrote the book. My guess is that he was already there but was expert at taking things that sounded reasonable on the surface and then proceeding to grotesquely pervert them through some convoluted logic. I have never read the book.
-
JOANP, that is a possibility that never occurred to me, that Liesel's
mother might be in that prison. It would certainly be in character for
her foster father to take her there so her mother might possibly get a
glimpse of her. But of course he wouldn't tell Liesel as it would only
upset her greatly. So,..maybe so.
To me, it seems he wants to get the point across that these children
of Himmel St. are coming to the realization that their lives are changing,
(JoanP)
I think this is why some libraries may have this book in the YA
section. The lead character is a young girl and the story centers around
her age group.
And the emphasis on eye color...wouldn't that be because the Nazis
place such importance on coloring? Anything other than Aryan is under
suspicion.
ALF, my fingers used to do that. Now I have a hard time getting some of
them to do as they're told. I come up with some odd gaps; I make a habit
of proofreading before posting.
-
I got the distinct impression that Liesel would never see her parents again. I think this is what her mother feared and why she wanted to place her in foster care. I never thought about her mother being in the nearby prison. I love Zusak's style of writing and do not find it labored at all at this point.
Sally
-
As I remember it from my reading of this book, it is stated that Liesel's father is dead. She knows that he will not be back. I got the idea that the mother was trying to save the two children. I will be back later.
Joan Grimes
-
"If her mother loved her, why leave her on someone else's doorstep?....The fact that she knew the answer-if only at the most basic level-seemed beside the point. Her mother was constantly sick and there was never any money to fix her. Liesel knew that. But that didn't mean she had to accept it. No matter how many times she was told that she was loved, there was no recognition that the proof was in the abandonment."
DEFINITION NOT FOUND IN THE DICTIONARY
NOT LEAVING: AN ACT OF TRUST AND LOVE, OFTEN DECIPHERED BY CHILDREN"
-
Ella- aside from the father being a "Kommunist", the mother likely felt that she and the children might be next on the "list on interest." I agree with Joan G. and Sally. I felt that she was attempting to save her children from starvation at the very least or a "relocation camp" at the very worst.
Babi- I make a habit of proofreading before posting.
You are absolutely correct and it is something that I am guilty of. Mea culpa ::)
Frybaby- Hitler wrote that book while in prison. It was partly autobiographical and filled with many inaccuracies and self truths on how he viewed the future of Germany. He felt that the Jews were the reason for any inadequacy in the world and the "Jews were the German nation's true enemy," he wrote. They had no culture of their own, he asserted, but perverted existing cultures such as Germany's with their parasitism.
As such, they were not a race, but an anti-race. He wrote against intermarriage and the high purity of the German people.
While Mein Kampf was crudely written and filled with embarrassing tangents and ramblings, it struck a responsive chord among its target -those Germans who believed it was their destiny to dominate the world. The book sold over five million copies by the start of World War II.
--- and so, his fear of the Jews conquering the world began.
Yes, frybaby the people loved him. He was a great orator and full of charisma.
Once released from prison, Hitler decided to seize power constitutionally rather than by force of arms. Using demagogic oratory, Hitler spoke to scores of mass audiences, calling for the German people to resist the yoke of Jews and Communists, and to create a new empire which would rule the world for 1,000 years.
-
Can you imagine?? The soldiers went door to door searching for "fuel" for an enormous fire after the parade, in celebration of Hitler's birthday.
Any material: newspapers,posters, books flags antyhing to burn in the name of the Fuhrer was requested.
Fear creeps into the Hubermann household as mama fears that their flag is missing. At this point didn't you feel the shift in the populace? A furtive existance, perhaps? Was it fear or excitement?
-
BABI: "It would certainly be in character for
her foster father to take her there so her mother might possibly get a
glimpse of her."
I didn't think of that, but I'll bet you're right.
There were only a couple of images that struck me as forced: no point in emphasizing them, when he has so many wonderful ones, especially if no one else felt that way.
-
The New York Public Library, on their 100th birthday (1990), published a list of the most INFLUENTIAL (not necessarily the best) books of the last 100 years. I made a project of reading as many as I could, but I drew the line at reading Mein Kampf. I'm glad your friend was braver than I. Maybe if more people had read it earlier, Hitler would have been recognized for what he was earlier.
The non-fiction book for April (Troublesome Young Men http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1187.msg63038;topicseen#new (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1187.msg63038;topicseen#new)) bears on this -- about the young Englishmen who recognized Hitler as a danger and got Churchill elected to try and stop him.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefcvr3.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 3-7 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
1. Do you think Hans intended to give that copy of Mein Kampf to Liesel, as his son had suggested he should do, or was he merely trying to get accepted into the Nazi Party membership? Why did he decide to send it to Max Vandenburg instead?
2. Why did Liesel "forget" to deliver the laundry to the the mayor's wife the week following the bonfire? What do you think of this woman who does not speak - or smile? How does Zusak portray her, using very few words? What do you know of her husband, the Mayor?
3.Were you surprised that Ilsa Hermann allowed the unkempt little Himmel Street waif into her house, into her magnificent library? How can you tell that Liesel's reading skills are improving?
4. Why does Fran Diller, the cold, bloodless candy shop lady, regard her paying customers with such contempt? "The triumph before the storm," we're told. How did the children "triumph"? Do you anticipate Fran Diller will take part in the coming storm?
5. How does Max answer Liesel's question whether Mein Kampf (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) is a good book? Have you ever read it?
6. Do you notice how Death's comments give an indication as to who will survive the coming devastation and who will not? How are we made to understand that Rudy Steiner will be among the survivors?
7. Why had Hans not previously joined the NSDAP as the majority of his neighbors had done? How did Erik Vandenburg's accordion save Hans from ostracism? Why does he change his mind and reapply for membership now?
8. The wildcard. Do you think Hans was surprised at mama's reaction to the challenge of hiding a Jew in the house? Were you? Max says he would never die a slow painful death like his uncle did, but isn't that what he's doing now in the Hubermann's freezing cold basement?
9. How does Hans convince Liesel of the need for absolute secrecy about Max? What of his threats convinces her most of the need for absolute secrecy?
10. Is Max beginning to take Hans' place as Liesel's "standover man." How are her 12th birthday gifts from Hans and Max similar?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I & II ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
Joan P, if the author mentioned the name of the prison and river, I guess we are supposed to know the information! I think the writing style is causing me to read the book too fast and miss things. The short sections are keeping me moving quickly to the next section, but maybe too quickly. I am going to try to read the next part more slowly.
I tried to determine if the second book Liesel steals, The Shoulder Shrug, was a real book. I couldn’t find that it was. I think the title is significant. I thought of people who shrug their shoulders and what they are trying to convey --- I don’t care, I don’t know, I couldn’t be bothered. I equated those feelings with the attitude of some of the people in towns across Europe who didn’t act as their Jewish friends and neighbors were rounded up. I’d like to hear what others think the significance of the second book could be.
-
Laura- After 463 days Liesel attained her second success story- The Shoulder Shrug.
She stole it out from under a pile of smoldering ashes. Like the Phoenix, I thught when I read it, but it was a cuckoo.
The book was a blue book with red writing engraved on the cover and a picture of a cuckoo bird (could that be Hitler?) under the title, also red.
RED- denotes excitement, energy, passion, desire, speed, strength, power, heat, love, aggression, danger, fire, blood, war, violence, aggression, all things intense.
-
The cover of the Shoulder Shrug was blue. Inside were white pages. The book was saved from the red flames.
Blue and White are the colors of the Israeli flag. The State of Israel was partially born out of the Holocaust.
Are these musings too fanciful?
It also brings to mind a famous Jewish saying (which may exist in other languages as well):
He who saves one soul saves the world.
Perhaps Liesel saving one book from the millions destroyed during these years was symbolic of saving the world of Knowledge. Or perhaps,saving her own soul.
-
Since the pages in the second book Liesel stole were white, wouldn't we have to assume that the book was not real but a metaphor?
My big Random Hous dictionary defines the verb shrug as raise (the shoulders) as a gesture of doubt, disdain or indifference.
The names of the town (IMolching) and the river (Amber) are both ficticious. Could the town of Molching actually be Dachau? Many web pages with reviews of the book, analyses and ongoing blogs testify to the wide interest (and horror) the book has generated. Apparently, there are no specific dates are given in the book.
But some important dates have been recorded, notably about the burning of books - an age-old outrage, in fact. This is what I found in a German wikipedia on the subject.
The burning of books is the demonstrative destruction by fire of books and other writings on the grounds of moral, religious, or political objections, as (allegedly) blasphemous, heretical, immoral, obscene, seditious, inciting riots, or treasonous.
An early example is the Ephesians' burning of their books on magic after their conversion by Paul,
depicted in Gustave Doré's painting Paul at Ephesus (1866). In the Middle Ages there were the book burnings by the Roman Catholic Church during the Inquisition. Remember our discussion of People of the Book by Geraldine Brooks last year. And they continued in the 20th century well beyond the Nazis' outrages of 1933.
Earlier today I found a wikipedia entry specifically about the Nazi book burnings in 1933 --- but it went into hiding. I'll post it as soon as I find it again.
-
Trying again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings
-
If we're mentioning book burnings in literature, let's not forget "Don Quixote" (we had a terrific discussion of this on the old site), where the priest and villagers hold a sort of kangaroo court, trying Don Quixote's books, and burning most of them. Books escape for odd reasons--someone met the author, the cover looks nice, whatever.
There's also Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451 (that being the temperature at which books ignite).
-
That linked worked, Traudee - thank you so much. From that site -
Where they have burned books, they will in the end burn people.(Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.)
— Heinrich Heine , Almansor (1821)
PatH - the Inquisition fits right into this conversation, don't you agree? First the books, then people. The big bonfire of books, followed by the smoke coming from Liesel's clothing - her chest burning from the smoldering books. Jude, I don't think your conclusions too fanciful at all.
Laura, I remember looking up the titles of the two books Liesel received for her birthday - "The Lighthouse" and "Faust the Dog." I found a site, don't remember where, that said both of these titles were fictitious, as was "The Shoulder Shrug."
The river in the story is not the Amber, but rather the Amper River, which is real. The actual city of Molching is Olching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olching). Laura, on p.71 in The Book Thief, (hardcover) - (why are the page numbers so hard to read? Are yours all smudged?)
" Once there ironing was delivered, thay made their way back to the Amper River, which flanked the town. It worked its way past, pointing in the direction of Dachau, the concentration camp...
They sat maybe thirty meters down from it, in the grass, writing the words and reading them aloud, and when darkness was near, Hans pulled out the accordion. Liesel looked at him and listened, though she did not immediately notice the perplexed expression on her papa's face that evening as he played."
Zusak says so much without actually saying much, doesn't he?
-
Yes, JOAN, he does.
I was struck by Zusak's definition of "love" - as deciphered by children. NOT LEAVING = love and trust. Isn't that sad? Lisel needs love, "not leaving" - I hope Papa stays. I'm almost afraid to read further in the book.
I put the book down for awhile, it is very touching and probably much of it is true. So I went to a mystery instead.
-
ELLA: I did the same thing.
-
Ella, that is so true. I find the relationship between Hans and Liesel heartwarming - from the beginning he conveyed this to Liesel - he would not leave her. And so gained her complete trust. At this point, I'm fearful that he will be taken from her, not that he will willingly leave.
Her mother left her. We still aren't sure where she is -
I went back to the page in which Liesel asks Hans, "Is my mother a communist?" Listen to what Zusak writes - to what he is actually saying in his response -
" Hans edged forward a little, forming the beginning of a lie. "I have no idea. I never met her."
Then Liesel asks him - "Did the Fuhrer take her away. Another lie was growing in his mouth, but he found it impossible to let it out. He said, "I think he might have, yes."
-
As I was reading your posts, it occurred to me that for many years (not too long ago), certain books were banned in our own country. While they were not burned, banning is another way of trying to control what people think. If you read the list of banned books, it will amaze you. For years the Catholic church also banned movies.
Sally
-
My page numbers are also smudged and hard to read. My book is a paper back and I assumed that the paper/ink was a poor quality, but maybe not.
Sally
-
Sally, that's true. As shown here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banned_in_Boston
-
Another example of censorhip and, ultimately, mind control is the Catholic Index of Forbidden books
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum
-
Book burnings have a long history. The link below enumerates the sorry details.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning
-
More on the time line of actual facts.
The connection with Jesse Owens: The 1936 Olympiad in Berlin was a colossal, spectecular extravaganza; Hitler had much to prove to the world.
He shook hands with the members of the German team, all in top form, all expected to win.
But there was Jesse Owens - remarkable, stupendous, a black man !!!,, who walked away with four gold medals. Owens, a hero in my book in every way, said later he wasn't snubbed by Hitler but by FDR, who didn't even send a congratulatory telegram.
Well ...
My all girls HS had a special interest in the 1936 Olympics simply because our gym teacher competed in a rowing event. His team came in fourth >:( and he left the school soon after. We were not sorry to see him go because he had worked us to exhaustion on the high bars and the other equipment.
Re danger/menace : It is the Hubermanns who ran an enormous risk by harboring a young Jewish man. I cannot imagine that this could have been possible under the circumstances described.
-
JoanP, Salan, it is not poor printing by the font style they used. It looks like one of the "Grunge" font styles but I am not sure. I didn't have time to research it; there are so many fonts. Also, if the paper is of a poorer quality there is what is called dot gain which is how much the ink spreads out on the paper. That would make font look fuzzier. Mine looks like there is a bit of dirty background behind the font itself. It looks like some one did a cut and paste job. It is intentional I am sure.
-
Marking my place. Is there another way to do it?
Rainy day here in San Diego, perfect for catching up on my reading of this wondrous book. I am captivated.
-
"In the late 19th century, American 'moral crusader' Anthony Comstock began a campaign to suppress vice. He found widespread support in Boston, particularly among socially prominent and influential officials. Comstock was also known as the proponent of the Comstock Law, which prevented "obscene" materials from being delivered by the U.S. mail". (from Traude's Wickapedia arcticle.)
Those "obscene materials" included not only books, but birth control devices, which, at the time, were not available in the United States. Margeret Sanger, in her struggles to provide birth control for the poor women she served as a nurse, many of whom were dying in childbirth after delivering 10 or more children, was always in danger of being jailed by the Comstock Law.
-
Talking about banning books...My local newspaper "San Jose Mercury News" has a daily item called "News of the Weird".
A few weeks ago they printed an item that tells of NOW in a small midwestern town where they have removed all the Webster's dictionaries from the schools because parents complained that their children were learning about oral sex from this book.
Can't you imagine the discussion between the parents and the children.
"How do you know about that?"
"Oh, I learned it from the dictionary in school."
"Well, that book is going to disappear from your school!"
"What will we do without dictionaries?"
"Well, there won't be anymore oral sex around here!"
-
LOL. Sounds just like everywhere I have ever been or read about.
-
This is way ahead of time, but I just noticed that PBS Masterpiece Classics will be doing The Diary of Anne Frank. It will air on Holocaust Remembrance Day, April 11, 2010.
I wasn't watching where I was in the book and found myself into Chapter 4. It's real hard to stop. I really, really want to know who survives at the end of the book, if anyone.
-
CallieinOK I live south of the Red River. We have lived in Wichita Falls for five years. I grew up in Oklahoma. Ponca City, Owasso and Oklahoma City. Ponca City has been one of my favorite places to live. Very rich in oil history (Marland Mansion). ( My husband works for Conoco/Phillips)
I like how the author brings life to the books.
The books from the fire, it almost seemed like he equated them to survivors of war.
Whatever the reason, they were huddled among the ashes, shaken. Survivors
|
When I was rereading chapters 1 and 2, I noticed how the senses play a role in getting to know the characters . Liesel fell asleep again to the smell of him. No one had ever given her music before. The sound of the accordion was safety. Her foster father's eyes were made of kindness and silver.
Again I read dry humor through out the chapters, The last lines of chapter 2.
"Quite a few things, however , were most definitely wrong:
smoke was rising out of Liesel's collar."
This brought another chuckle, when the soul speaks about "heil Hitlering" bottom of page 111
-
But there was Jesse Owens - remarkable, stupendous, a black man !!!,, who walked away with four gold medals. Owens, a hero in my book in every way, said later he wasn't snubbed by Hitler but by FDR, who didn't even send a congratulatory telegram.
This does not surprise me at all. I can remember the time, not well but do have memories of it. I remember my Dad talking about Jesse Owens and his being Black... Nothing derogatory against Jesse Owens because Jesse Owens was born in Oakville, Alabama and there was pride from my Dad that this man from the same state we lived in had achieved this great accomplishment.However my Dad did realize that FDR expressed no National pride in this accomplishment. So I am not surprised that Owens felt snubbed by FDR.
-
Joan A
just posting to your comment on 'Mein Kampf', listening to on audio a '10 Books that Screwed Up the World by B. Wiler'--would you believe "Mein Kampf was among them.
Deb
-
Guten Morgen!
Great posts on book banning - ! I'm thinking bans are only as effective as the consequences of flaunting them. Have you ever violated a ban? What happened? I remember - eons ago, when in high school, there was a movie - the title stays with me all these years -(never saw it, it was "banned") - "Forever Amber." One of our crowd of friends went to see it - and it was all the rage. Nothing happened to Janet, that's what I do recall. I don't even remember what she told us about it. Just that there were NO consequences for the violation of the ban. Did anyone see the movie? Can you tell me what it was about - and why it was banned? What is the difference between a ban and an "x" rating?
Sally, Frybabe, it is good to know that both the hardcover and the paperback editions have the smudged page numbers - a grunge font. Thought it was my eyes - but now believe it is intentional - perhaps to indicate the font was painted with one of Hans paint brushes. Some of them are hard to read though. Hard to believe there is actually a font for this!
The "Shoulder Shrug" is one of the banned books - well, at least it was considered "objectionable" enough to be fuel for the bonfire. I'm sure we will hear more about this book as Liesel begins to read it. Deb, that was quite symbolic, the image of the smoke rising from Liesel's collar. The reference to the book as a "survivor." Do you think this suggests that Liesel will rescue another survivor in the coming chapter?
-
Well my mother would not allow me to read the book "Forever Amber". I never did read it. My Mother and my Aunts all read it and decided it was unfit for me to read. I overheard enough of them laughing behind their hands to know that it was not something that I even wanted to read. I think they must have thought I was deaf. LOL.
Joan Grimes
-
Aha, JoanG! "Forever Amber" - A book! I'm going to go look it up now!
Today we begin to discuss Parts III and IV and we meet Max Vandenburg. Isn't this a heartbreaking story? - this poor broken man who dares to set foot in the light of day. Traude, can you you tell us the danger a young Jewish man would be facing in Germany in 1940?
And what good it would do him to have a copy of Hitler's Mein Kampf in his bag if apprehended?
Has anyone here ever read Mein Kampf? I was able to locate the Gutenburg electronic version - with some difficulty. It seems that the US has a copyright on the text - which means that for 95 years from the date issued, it can not be made available electronically. But things are different in Australia, right Gum? Fewer restraints...
If you wish to sample the writing in the Australian version - here's a link - Mein Kampf (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt);
Why did Hans change his mind and reapply for membership in the Party? They don't want him, do they? What exactly did he do?
... Do you think he intended to read Mein Kampf with Liesel as Hans Jr. said he should do? If not, what did he intend to do with it?
Please continue to post the images and metaphors that catch your eye. We love to reread them!
-
TRAUDE, taking in that young Jewish man was a great risk, but I
understand that some German families did do that, esp. where children
were involved. And Liesel's foster family seem very 'low profile' and
not likely to draw the attention of the authorities. Still, I hoped the
young man would move on at the first opportunity.
It seemed to me, JOAN, that Hans joined the Party and bought Mein Kampf
in order to present the image of a loyal Nazi. He needed to do all he
could to divert suspicion from his household. They were so vulnerable.
-
JOANP: Isn't this MEIN KAMPF in English? I am running around quickly today but just happened to see your post.
http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/
-
The link to Mein Kampf is not really to an 'Australian' version but to the Gutenberg Australia Project who state:
this translation of the unexpurgated edition of Mein Kampf was first published on March 21st, 1939 by Hurst and Blackett Ltd.
the translation was made by James Murphy who died in 1946. Printed editions are available in Australia.
The 95 year copyright held by the US on the text preventing electronic editions of Mein Kampf in the US begs the question as to whether this is a form of censorship - is Mein Kampf, in fact, a banned book in the US? Are printed copies available?
-
Joan P.
Re: FOREVER AMBER
In 7th grade we had a teacher who would always be busy with her own things and gave us easy assignments. As long as we were quiet all was OK. Some one brought Forever Amber to school. The "juicy parts" were dogeared. The book passed from one person to the next-in silence of course. We all read it but never had a discussion about it afterwards. Another book that passed around this way was "The Well of Loneliness" which I don't remember exactly except for the name. It had many less pages dogeared.
Nothing appeals to teenagers like things they are not supposed to do or read.
-
Apparently it was not the book, but the film that caused "Forever Amber" to be banned in Massachusetts - and then 14 other states -
While many reviewers "praised the story for its relevance, comparing Amber's fortitude during the plague and fire to that of the women who held hearth and home together through the blitzes of World War II", others condemned it for its blatant sexual references.[2] Fourteen U.S. states banned the book as pornography. The first was Massachusetts, whose attorney general cited 70 references to sexual intercourse, 39 illegitimate pregnancies, 7 abortions, and "10 descriptions of women undressing in front of men" as reasons for banning the novel
.
[1] Winsor denied that her book was particularly daring, and said that she had no interest in explicit scenes. "I wrote only two sexy passages," she remarked, "and my publishers took both of them out. They put in ellipsis instead. In those days, you know, you could solve everything with an ellipsis."[1]
The book was condemned by the Catholic Church for indecency, which helped to make it popular. One critic went so far as to number each of the passages to which he objected. The film was finally completed after substantial changes to the script were made, toning down some of the book's most objectionable passages in order to appease Catholic media critics
-
Ella, the link from the Gutenberg Australia Project is in English too - but the link you brought us is much easier to read, I have substituted it in the heading. Do you know where your link came from? I spent some time reading the first chapter - fascinating reading. Help me, a lot of what Hitler writes makes perfect sense to me!
The first chapter speaks of his boyhood. Hitler's father wanted him to become a civil servant. Hitler preferred painting and drawing. As time went on, this interest developed into Architecture.
But as a schoolboy, he excelled in History and Geography. In Mein Kampf he writes -
Instruction in world history in the so-called high schools is even today in a very sorry condition. Few teachers understand that the aim of studying history can never be to learn historical dates and events by heart and recite them by rote; that what matters is not whether the child knows exactly when this or that battle was fought, when a general was born, or even when a monarch (usually a very insignificant one) came into the crown of his forefathers. No, by the living God, this is very unimportant.
To 'learn' history means to seek and find the forces which are the causes leading to those effects which we subsequently perceive as historical events. Adolf Hitler
What do you think? Don't you find this to be true?
I'm not as sure about what he says here of reading/learning:
The art of reading as of learning is this: to retain the essential to forget the non-essential.
Who decides what is essential, what is non-essential?
I read somewhere that the book has been banned in Germany altogether - but that soon - 2015? - it will become available to the German public. Have you heard anything about this, Traude?
Babi - I can see why Hans would apply for membership in the Party - and agree, they are quite vulnerable - and this is BEFORE their houseguest arrives!
Do you think that Hans intended to read Mein Kampf with Liesel? Even if he didn't, I'll bet she gets her eager little hands on it!
-
I'm ready to post some favorite quotes from the book. Each one is a separate quote from a different page. Hope this is the place to do it. Is there going to be a special new page posted for this purpose?
Oh, how the clouds stumbled in and assembled stupidly in the sky. Great obese clouds.
Pride that more resembled that small pool of felt something in her stomach. And it was anger.....
Liesel was a girl made of darkness.
It was a morning that didn't dare to be rainy.
The words trotted out, involuntarily.
A short grin was smiled into Papa's spoon.
...cooked those eggs to the brink of burndom.
Both he and the paint fumes turned around.
She had cloned Rosa Hubermann's unfortunate, waddlesome walking style.... (my note: this is one of my favorite quotes)
That was when a great shiver arrived. It waltzed through the window with the draft. Perhaps if was the breeze of the Third Reich, gathering even greater strength. Or maybe it was just Erupe again, breathing. Either way, it fell across them as their metallilc eyes clashed like tin cans inthe kitchen. (my note: this refers to the eyes of Hans and his son)
-
Poor Liesel, full of paranoia just skipped right on by the mayor's house until she was threatened by mama and made to return. The mayor's wife who looked with "utter distance" allowed Liesel to enter on her next visit and she was shocked and over whelmed by the multitude of books and their colors. I know that feeling. When I walk into a library of someone's home I feel the need to put my hands in my pockets for fear I will reach out and caress the books. I know exactly how she felt. It felt like magic to her as she touched the books and accepted the books from the mayor's wife. What does it mean by:
"She returned to the lady behind her, whose smile gave the appearance now of a bruise...?"
-
Thanks, COUNTRYMM, for putting those sentences here, I loved reading them over again. Zusak's writing is very appealing isn't it?
Didn't we establish that he is of German parentage? I wonder how the German people feel about the book? He does say in the interview in the back of my book that he hopes that readers will take away from the book the knowledge that there were Germans who hid Jewish people and felt that the whole business of Hitler and the Naziis were ridiculous.
Yes, ALF, most readers feel as you do; the instant longing to take those books in your hands and open them to see what the authors have written.
Liesel has learned, to write, to read, to mail letters. And wonder what has happened to her mother - who are "they."
That is interesting, JOANP, that Hitler's book has been banned all these years from Germany. I didn't know that and it seems pointless; as if the German people couldn't obtain a copy elsewhere. Come on!!
Just as JUDE said that teenagers will find a way to read something banned, so would the German public.
-
Have you noticed that once you start reading on a subject, you find it everywhere? Last night, one of my local PBS stations (KCET) broadcast a London musical about the Holocast, "Imagine That". (It's technically a musical because the characters sometimes talk, but the tone of it is more in the operatic tradition, as you can imagine). Very moving.
-
I don’t think Hans will read Mein Kampf with Leisel. However, Leisel seems very interested in it while Max is reading it, so she may read it yet.
I have to agree with the world history quote from Mein Kampf. They say history repeats itself and it’s because we haven’t learned from the past.
What does it mean by:
"She returned to the lady behind her, whose smile gave the appearance now of a bruise...?"
The mayor’s wife has been hurt somehow. Later in the reading section, we learn that it is likely the memory of Johann Hermann that is causing her pain (pg. 145). I am guessing he was her fiancée, killed during World War I.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefcvr3.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 3-7 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
1. Do you think Hans intended to give that copy of Mein Kampf to Liesel, as his son had suggested he should do, or was he merely trying to get accepted into the Nazi Party membership? Why did he decide to send it to Max Vandenburg instead?
2. Why did Liesel "forget" to deliver the laundry to the the mayor's wife the week following the bonfire? What do you think of this woman who does not speak - or smile? How does Zusak portray her, using very few words? What do you know of her husband, the Mayor?
3.Were you surprised that Ilsa Hermann allowed the unkempt little Himmel Street waif into her house, into her magnificent library? How can you tell that Liesel's reading skills are improving?
4. Why does Fran Diller, the cold, bloodless candy shop lady, regard her paying customers with such contempt? "The triumph before the storm," we're told. How did the children "triumph"? Do you anticipate Fran Diller will take part in the coming storm?
5. How does Max answer Liesel's question whether Mein Kampf (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) is a good book? Have you ever read it?
6. Do you notice how Death's comments give an indication as to who will survive the coming devastation and who will not? How are we made to understand that Rudy Steiner will be among the survivors?
7. Why had Hans not previously joined the NSDAP as the majority of his neighbors had done? How did Erik Vandenburg's accordion save Hans from ostracism? Why does he change his mind and reapply for membership now?
8. The wildcard. Do you think Hans was surprised at mama's reaction to the challenge of hiding a Jew in the house? Were you? Max says he would never die a slow painful death like his uncle did, but isn't that what he's doing now in the Hubermann's freezing cold basement?
9. How does Hans convince Liesel of the need for absolute secrecy about Max? What of his threats convinces her most of the need for absolute secrecy?
10. Is Max beginning to take Hans' place as Liesel's "standover man." How are her 12th birthday gifts from Hans and Max similar?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I & II ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
I find the relationship between the Mayor’s wife and Leisel intriguing and full of mystery. The mayor’s wife was the person in the shadows who saw Leisel take the book The Shoulder Shrug from the bonfire. I think the mayor’s wife felt sorry for Leisel, that she wanted to read and own books so badly that she was willing to risk taking one from the burn pile. The mayor’s wife seems very lonely and eager for company, yet is also very detached. I am hoping to get a better understanding of what is going on with them as the book continues.
-
"Have you noticed that once you start reading on a subject, you find it everywhere?" JoanK Oh yes, Joan - sometimes it is really shocking. Is there a word for this phenonmenon?
Some more thoughts on the banning of Hitler's Mein Kampf in Germany, which Ella finds pointless. I found
the article in the British Telegraph that tells of the ban (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/7156536/Adolf-Hitlers-Mein-Kampf-to-be-republished-in-Germany.html) that will be lifted in 2015 - five years from now. An interesting article. The book has been banned since 1945. The new release in 2015 will be annotated and used in schools. The Jewish leaders in Germany are okay with this new edition.
Laura - I see Liesel questionning Max about whether the book is any good or not. My money says she'll read it. Poor Max! I think that it would be worse reading Mein Kampf - than spending the winter in the freezing basement. Why is he reading it? Is it because there is nothing else to read? Or?
countrymm - thank you so much for your list of favorite Zusakisms. I enjoy reading them too, Ella. There so many in these pages, it's easy to overlook - or forget them. Here's the page where we are keeping the expressions that you are posting here. We'll keep the list going until the end of the discussion, and then Pat will create an html page for the Archives. I'll put this link to the page in the heading - in the meantime, you might want to check that I caught your favorites - if I missed something, please post here and I'll add yours to the list -
Our favorite Zusak expressions (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
-
Laura - I find the Mayor's wife fascinating too. She saw Liesel pluck the book from the bonfire - these were books which the Nazis found objectionable enough to toss in the bonfire in celebration of Hitler's birthday. Not only did she see Liesel do this, but she responds with sympathy - or empathy, or something. We don't know why - because she doesn't speak! To add to the mystery - the Mayor is a staunch Nazi! What is their relationship about?
In just a few words, the author describes her as one whose mouth seems to bruise if she smiles. This is a very sad and lonely lady. Do you suppose she is in shock? Laura believes she is mourning the loss of a fiance...but where does the Nazi husband fit into this story?
I'm wondering about the books she has in her overflowing library. Do you recognize any of the titles Liesel is reading?
-
I believe that she is mourning the loss of her child. I seem to remember her saying that somewhere in my reading of this book. I will try to look and see if I can find the reference to it if I can come off cloud nine myself since I just heard that my granddaughter got inot Medical school today...Kind of hard for me to concentrate on a book discussion after this news in my own family.Joan Grimes
-
Oh that is wonderful news, JoanG! Med school!
When you do come down from that cloud - and check your book, please be sure that any informatilon you share here does not come from pages beyond Part IV. Quite a few of us are not reading ahead of the discussion.
Whatever her loss turns out to be, it surely took its toll on this woman. She must have seen something in this young girl that prompted her to let her into her library and handle her books.
Again, congratulations, Joan!
Gum, I see on my calendar that today is Canberra Day - or maybe it was yesterday? Did you celebrate?
-
Wow! Congratulations are in order for your beloved grand daughter JoanG. They sure can make us proud, can't they?
I do not believe that we yet know why Ilsa Hermann has made "suffering her triumph."
When Leisel was browsing through the picture books, she noted the name Johann Hermann written clumsily on the inside cover. When she asked the mayor's wife who that person was she replied, "He is nothing now in this world, He was my...." - leaving us and Leisel to still wonder who Johann was. The narrator recognizes him:
"Oh yes, I definitely remember him.
The sky was murky and deep like quicksand.
There was a young man parceled up in barbed wird, like a giant crown of thorns. I untangled him and carried him out. High above the earth, we sank together to our knees. It was just another day, 1918."
The only thing that we're told by Ilsa is that she is certain that "he froze to death." She is engulfed and suffering from depression. Who is HE? We haven't a clue yet, just conjecture.
-
JoanP- I can not find any reference to which titles Leisel is reading while she is discovering the power of words, at the Mayor's house.
She pities the mayor's wife and I wonder what will happen when "the mayor's wife let her down. How quickly the pity would leave her and how quikcly it would spill over into somehting else completely." Yikes, that sounds ominous, and like Laura, I wonder what could that pitiful creature do to upset Leisel to that extent?
-
Joining up with Arthur Berg, our little book thief and her friend Rudy graduate from stealing books, to apples and food -meant for the priests. I cracked up over that scene when they deliberately plotted against poor Otto Sturm, pouring water onto the road to cause the kid to spill from his bike. Rudy said the priests were too fat anyway, and a grin ran across his face like a :D
Like a skid- wonderful writing.
Liesel agreed because she wasn’t catholic anyway and she was hungry.” ::) (Very witty.)
Their thieving days were abruptly ended when Berg left town. I love reading the thoughts of the narrator as he recalled and paid tribute to Arthur Berg- A STILL LIVING MAN.
-
JoanG, congratulations! You must be very pleased.
You're right, the Mayor's wife is mourning the loss of her son, but I'm not quite sure where it says so either. I find it remarkably hard with this book to pin down where I saw a detail or whether I got the right impression. I wonder if that's on purpose.
-
PatH - I think the implication is there, but not clearly stated. How old would you say the sad wife of the Mayor might be? This is 1940. The young man was taken down by Death from the barbed wire in 1918. Did he die in WWI? I really don't thnk that she'd be mourning the loss of a fiance all those years, but a son, well you'd never really get over the loss of a son, especially considering the way he died. Does Liesel remind her of her lost child in some way, do you suppose?
Andy, the book that Liesel can't get enough of - that she reads every time she visits the library was called THE WHISTLER, I think. It was s murder story set in Vienna, I think. It made Liesel tremble whenever she read it - but she reads it anyway. I'm wondering if such a book is representative of the books in this library?
-
Joan P asked: How old would you say the sad wife of the Mayor might be? This is 1940. The young man was taken down by Death from the barbed wire in 1918. Did he die in WWI? I really don't think that she'd be mourning the loss of a fiance all those years, but a son, well you'd never really get over the loss of a son, especially considering the way he died. Does Liesel remind her of her lost child in some way, do you suppose?
I thought the mayor’s wife would be too young to have lost a child in World War I, so that’s why I think she is mourning the loss of her fiancée. If you were married to someone you didn’t love, I think it would be very plausible to mourn a fiancée lost to death, even years later. If we assume that she had a son at 20 and that he was 20 at the time of his death, that would make the mayor’s wife 60. I didn’t get the impression that she was that old, but we really aren’t given enough information to know.
-
Well, I started this book a few days ago and am still reading it and can't stop. It really turned me off in the beginning. I thought I was back on "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy which we discussed about 3 yrs ago. That's how depressing it seemed to me. But, once I got into the story of the "Book Thief", I couldn't resist just another page and then another. Due to other commitments, I can't say much every day but I am really enjoying the posts.
By the by, I asked my librarian where they would catalogue the book and she said its in the ADULT section. Although, a school publication thought it appropriate for high schools.
Laura
About the mayor's wife, I put her at circa 60. Her fiancee??? Did I miss something??
Maybe she just wanted to share her library with a child who seemed to love books. As maybe, her lost son did. Maybe she made this offer as she could read the handwriting on the wall, concerning Germany. Before the eventual bomb that could come and end her life in that nice big house. I can't figure out why she hardly ever speaks to Liesel, just sits there watching her choose a few books to read parts of, quickly, so she can remember them later. I wonder why Liesel did that?
JoanG,
So glad your granddaughter is following her star. How glad that must make you feel!
Its getting close to bedtime for Bonzo here in downtown Gahanna.
-
I don't want to give too much information about the loved one the mayors wife mourns, but later in the book you will know. I want to share the page number really bad................
The unanswered questions and what will happen next in the book had me staying up very late at night just to find out. :)
I was curious about Liesels first two books given to her, Faust the Dog and The Lighthouse. From what I can gather on-line, they were made up by the author?
-
Regarding what Leisel is reading. On page 113 :
Leisel would choose a handful of books and read small segments of each until she found one she could not put down. it was "The Whistler'......
The first event in the book was a murder. A stabbing...
It seems to me the Mayor's wife is sunk in mourning for her lost son or brother killed in WW1.
The book says" one of the picture books had a name written clumsily on the inside cover-Johann Hermann-"
The story continues about the woman embracing suffering. Deciding to make it her triumph .
Death says "she is one of a worldwide brigade. You've seen her before in your stories,poems and screens. Why not on a hilltop in Germany.?"
In these statements Death has shown us that all suffer, over the whole world. He embraces all and notes the effect he, death, has on people wherever they live and no matter what they believe.
-
I, too, think the mayor's wife is mourning the loss of a child. Why else would she have a picture book with his name scribbled inside? That gave me the impression that it was a child's book. Surely she would not have had her fiance's book?????
Sally
-
Sally said: I, too, think the mayor's wife is mourning the loss of a child. Why else would she have a picture book with his name scribbled inside? That gave me the impression that it was a child's book. Surely she would not have had her fiance's book?
Ah ha! That makes sense. The book is the clue. OK, I think it was a son also.
-
PATH said - -"I find it remarkably hard with this book to pin down where I saw a detail or whether I got the right impression. "
(I keep forgetting how to put a quote in blue)
What PATH said is true for me also; I just read the questions in the heading and I think I will have to go back to the book to answer them. I get impressions but not answers.
-
I can say this about MAX. The guilt he must feel is dreadful and as I remember Hans and his father were together in WWI, is that correct? And that is the reason MAX shows up and is taken in? How frightened Rosa and Hans must have felt to take in a Jew but they didn't hesitate because of Max's father.
Now I must go back to the book to see how Hans impresses upon Liesel the need for secrecy in regard to MAX.
-
Annie- there you are. i'm so pleased that you decided to stick with us and enjoy the prose of this fine author. You can not help but get swept up into his words. When I bought this book it was in both sections. It had a different cover in the adult section than it did in the Young Adult section. I can understand why this book would be in the young adult section however. These kids are savy kids and well understand the horrors of war. Young Adults is usually 13-17, isn't it?
Ella- yes, I agree that the guilt for Max must have been great, but he had to survive somehow and to do that he must involve another person. Hans was indebted to his father, a Jew, who saved Han's life in the war and lost his own. When Hans visited the widow after the war offering to help her, he met the young lad at that time.
"What he didn't know was that his help would most definitely be needed, but not for painting, and not for another twenty years of so."
He felt obliged to help the son, now a grown man.
-
I think that this phase in the book is when I started to "rethink" Rosa. Yes, she is crude and mouthy, but she must have had kindness in her heart. I'm sure they didn't get paid much, and maybe by now, nothing for Liesel's care. Now she takes in a Jew. Most risky and their food supply was limited. What do you think?
Sally
-
Sally- as crude as Rosa was I think it was all an act- perhaps an act of self preservation. She assumed this tough exterior to protect her soft heart and emotions. Something like "buckle up," get going" or it's no big deal."
Those statements give us a sense of control and conviction that all will be well. (Even when we know they will not be.)
-
Hello!
Just in from the annual Reading Promotion Partners meeting at the Library of Congress - told them all about you and what we do here! They pulled up the site on the large screen computer - and looked in at this discussion. The screen was huge! You would have loved seeing your picture magnified, Andy! ;)
Annie, so glad you joined in! Yes, we've concluded that the boy, Johann Hermann - must have been Ilsa Hermann's son and not a fiancé. (A fiancé wouldn't have had the same last name.) If he died in 1918, I think it's a good guess that Ilsa is about 60 years old. (Not a word from you, Debbie - who stayed up all night reading ahead to find out more about Ilsa. You can't even say if we are warm or cold, Deb!)
So why doesn't she speak? Why does she just sit there, almost content, while Liesel turns the pages. Jude, if the boy, Johann Herrman was the Ilsa Hermann's son, and if he died in WWI, then perhaps these books did not belong to Ilsa, but rather to her son. the boy From the description, "The Whistler" doesn't sound like a book Ilsa would read. I'm wondering if all of these books didn't belong to Johann Hermann.
Ilsa likes to sit there quietly watching Liesel read, but she did not want to talk to her. Might that break the spell? Might she be imagining this was her boy on his stomach on the rug, reading his books?
I'm reminded by this example of Ilsa's suffering, how events of World War I left a lot of issues unanswered in Germany...which is what led to WWII.
-
So why doesn't she speak? Why does she just sit there, almost content, while Liesel turns the pages
.
JoanP-the woman is totally depressed and distressed. She has slumped into lethargy (my favorite spot when I am depressed.)
Her unhappiness and blue funk manifest itself in the form of inertia. That is exactly how she feels.
OMG- I can not imagine seeing my face in the LOC.
hahahah I was just reading a Baldacchi novel about the library of Congress and I was so excited because I knew after our DC visit exactly what he was talking about. Now I can but imagine my face on a large screen being viewed. (oh boy) Watch out Meryl.
-
Yes, Andy - it was a great big screen, not quite movie theater size...but you get the idea.
I have to say, that Ilsa probably is a very depressed person, but I think while Liesel is quietly reading those books in her library, the poor woman is as close to being at peace than she ever will be.
It's interesting the way we move from the privacy of the Hubermann's home - to Liesel's life outside, Himmel Street and then her secret hours spent in the Hermann's library. She'll have to keep more secrets, now that Max has come on the scene.
And Max...oh, doesn't your heart break for him? He'd been a normal happy kid - a fistfighter, full of himself. And now the only word I can think to describe him - he is a "broken" man. Full of guilt for having left his family behind. Are they in jeopardy? Should he have stayed with them? Could he have protected them if he had? Are they better off without him in their home? Traude mentioned briefly a few days ago that a young Jewish male was in greater trouble at this time. Were not the rest of his family in peril as well?
I love the fact that accordion is playing such a role here, don't you? Almost as if it is a character in the novel - like death. How would you describe this its role?
Sally - "I think that this phase in the book is when I started to "rethink" Rosa." What do the rest of you think? We're told that Rosa is the wildcard. Max and Hans don't know what her reaction will be when confronted with the situation. Maybe Hans knew. Liesel said it best when they finally told her they were taking Hans into their home - and that it was going to change everything. Remember? She asks "Who are these people?"
Hans is just being Hans. His reaction wasn't surprising. He made a promise, he'll keep it. But Rosa? Yes, Sally, let's rethink Rosa!
-
The accoridan breaths! That is an important thought in the novel (IMO)
-
A few incidences disturbed me . One is when Rosa punished Liesel with the wooden spoon and a stray yellow tear trickled down her face. (page 99) The other was when Hans slapped Liesel. (page 116). I realize that both Rosa and Hans had their reasons for the punishment.
-
Good Grief!! I'm sorry,,,, for some crazy reason I was still in chapters I and II. Please ignore my previous post .
::)
-
SALLY & ALF, I see you are coming to the same conclusion I did. My first
impressions of Rosa were rather negative, but I'm coming to appreciate
her more and more.
I'm reminded by this example of Ilsa's suffering, how events of World
War I left a lot of issues unanswered in Germany...which is what led to
WWII.
[JoanP]
So true! Most importantly, those 'issues' left the people vulnerable
to the seductions of a man like Hitler.
No biggie, OKIE. It's so easy to do. I think it was fear for Liesel,
more than anything else, that prompted the punishments. Far worse than
a slap could happen if she gets careless about doing all they have told
her to do.
-
As I read about Liesel and the library, I had a different first impression of the woman - she was the MAYOR'S wife and the MAYOR was a Nazi. I think she was a frightened woman, afraid to talk to the child for fear of being quoted. She had books, were you supposed to have books in Nazi Germany? And you certainly should not allow young German children to read just anything.
But, yes, I think she was depressed, she had lost a child ("He is nothing now in this world") and this was a good reason to befriend another.
Rudy is another important person in young Liesel's life don't you think? I hope Death leaves him alone.
This book is full of sadness. I am afraid to read further for fear of what Liesel will lose next. I hope the book ends on a good note, the war is over, some survive.
-
I think the mayor's wife felt a connection to Liesel because of Liesel's obvious interest in books. All of us that love books feel some sort of connection with others who love books--even if our reading interests are not the same.
It was obvious that the mayor's wife was very sad and depressed. Reading can form an escapism when life gets unbearable.
Sally
-
The Mayor may be a Nazi or he may just act like a Nazi to retain his position.
The Mayors wife is obviously sad about the death of a loved one but she may also be sad because she does not believe in the Nazi ideology. A person who saves books could not abide the notion of book burning.
Liesel's interest in her books assuages a bit of the pain she feels. In an unspoken way the woman is sharing with Liesel the days when life was happier for her.
As far as Rosa goes-she seems to have a rough exterior but a soft inside. The way she cares for Max is amazing.
Perhaps she too does not go along with the Nazi ideology.
In fact I am beginning to think the real purpose of this book is to show us how variegated were the Germans that did not believe in the Nazi ideology but went along with it in a superficial manner in order to stay alive.
-
I'm sorry to be joining late but I've read all of your thoughtful posts and they are pulling me into the discussion of this fascinating book. I'm now reading it for the second time and have caught up through Part IV. You've brought up many of the things I noted in the earlier sections.
A couple of random thoughts:
on Rosa's swearing: the book is about the power of words. Rosa uses the most derogatory words to address everyone, including Hans and Liesel but I think they are her way of coping with the world and belie her true feelings for her husband and foster child. I found the swearing somewhat funny at times to relieve the tension of the serious focus of the book, for example, in section III, when Liesel first makes the trip to the mayor's house alone to visit the library, she turns back from the top of Himmel street and looks back to see Rudy waving. "'Saukerl' she laughed, and as she held up her hand, she knew completely that he was simultaneously calling her a Saumensch. I think that's as close to love as eleven-year-olds can get." I laughed out loud at that exchange.
The COLD plays a big part throughout the book. I think that both the mayor's wife and Max suffer the cold as a kind of self-punishment for surviving their loved ones. We learn that the mayor's wife thinks that Johann Hermann (I agree with those of you who think he was her son) "froze to death." Her house is kept very cold. She never closes the window in the library. "She could have shot herself, scratched herself, or indulged in other forms of self mutilation, but she chose what she probably felt was the weakest option--to at least endure the comfort of the weather." Max returns every day to the cold basement.
I plan to keep up with the discussion now.
-
oxietxjean- I know just what you mean. I got caried away with this reading too and almost quoted something from Chapter VI. I would be in deep ka-ka with my mentor, jumping ahead like that.
Babi- I agree with you and Jude about Rosa when she showed so much kindness to the young 24 year old Max. She unbegrudgenly offered him more pea soup and then cleaned up his vomit after he ate. Liesel could see the drawn face of the stranger, and behind it, the worried expression scribbled like a mess onto mama.
What a picture that paints.
Sally-All of us that love books feel some sort of connection with others who love books--even if our reading interests are not the same.
That is so true even with all of here on an inline community full of book lovers. We do have a connection, don't we? AND- Reading is my very favorite form of escapism.
-
I expected Rosa to be willing to take in Max. I was very simplistic about it. I figured that if she was willing to take in Leisel and her brother, who we have deduced were children of enemies of the Nazis, then it follows that Rosa would be willing to take in another enemy of the Nazis, a Jewish man. Yes, the Jewish man was a much greater risk. However, I think the underlying principles which gave Rosa the ability to take in children would give her the ability to take in a Jewish man.
I think Max is so brave. I marvel at the inner strength required to sustain oneself mentally in isolation and uncertainty. It took great courage for him to leave his family, not cowardice, in my opinion.
I knew the accordion must have some part in the story! However, I didn’t imagine just how. I’ll leave the writing to the authors. They are much cleverer than I!
-
Marcie- bless your heart, I was posting at the same time as you. Welcome aboard.
That is an interesting posture you took with this book being about the power of words.
I completely agree but must throw in the power of the colors as well. ::)
Max had a continuous affliction of guilt and felt that to live he must pay the price of guilt and shame.
Great thought on the need for the cold as a 'coping" mechanism. Max felt as though the basement were the place for him. He was a Jew and if there was one place he was destined to exist, it was a basement or any other such hidden venue of survival.
Exhibiting a great deal of kindness Hans and Rosa offered a mattress and blankets to the stranger and "topped up the kerosene lamp" to ensure a bit more comfort, while he was housed in with the paint cans. This part of the book deeply moved me as I slunk down, becoming a non-entity and prepared to hide with Max in the cold.
Laura-I agree that it was an act of bravery on Max's part. When one loses all of their family and they are the ones to survive, it is with extreme guilt and pain that they must live on, alone. Survivor's guilt is powerful. You have to be a brave soul, like Max to surive that alone much less the Nazis chasing after him.
-
A couple of random thoughts:
on Rosa's swearing: the book is about the power of words. Rosa uses the most derogatory words to address everyone, including Hans and Liesel but I think they are her way of coping with the world and belie her true feelings for her husband and foster child. I found the swearing somewhat funny at times to relieve the tension of the serious focus of the book, for example, in section III, when Liesel first makes the trip to the mayor's house alone to visit the library, she turns back from the top of Himmel street and looks back to see Rudy waving. "'Saukerl' she laughed, and as she held up her hand, she knew completely that he was simultaneously calling her a Saumensch. I think that's as close to love as eleven-year-olds can get." I laughed out loud at that exchange.
I felt the same as marcie about this.
I wanted to thank all of you who commented on my granddaughter's acceptance to Med School. I am so very proud of her . However I need to get back to this book. Joan Grimes
-
"I am beginning to think the real purpose of this book is to show us how variegated were the Germans that did not believe in the Nazi ideology but went along with it in a superficial manner in order to stay alive." (Jude)
Jude, I think that is one of the main reasons I was attracted to this book in the first place - for insight into what the German citizen was feeling and thinking during Hitler's regime. In an early chapter, we saw how Liesel adored him - and we heard of his great charisma, his ability to attract so many to his way of thinking. But as we go along, we are meeting more and more of the disillusioned. I find that satisfying.
Babi - I agree, those who could not accept the losses of WWI had no choice but to follow Hitler into yet another war - or to settle for extreme poverty - and ostracism.
Ella, given their choices, I am afraid I can't see the book ending on a high note. As you say, some will survive, but the survivors will have lost so much. Do you remember when Death said that he met Liesel three times? To me this can mean two things - the third time he came to carry Liesel away - OR - she is still living at the end of the telling of this story. Let's hope for that.
Perhaps the "good note" you are hoping for will be the survival of the human spirit - the ability to sustain loss. Are you finding any humor in the story? Maybe that's what we need to look for.
JoanG - does the granddaughter have any idea of the joy she has brought to your life? I hope you stay up on the cloud #9 - at least until she's graduated from med school! :D
-
The author seems to be telling a story of the mothers' ability to survive the loss of their sons. Did he intend to do this? Liesel's mother buried her six year old son - and disappeared. Ilsa Hermann buried her 19 year old son and disappeared too, in her own way. Rosa has lost her son to the Nazi army, without so much as a goodbye kiss to his mother. She has lost the intimacy with her daughter too, keeping the secret in the basement all during her Christmas visit.
All extremely painful, endured in different ways.
Marcie, so glad that you made it. We kept a warm chair close to the fire, just for you! You point out an interesting fact - the book is about the power of words. Rosa uses the most derogatory words to address everyone, including Hans and Liesel but I think they are her way of coping with the world and belie her true feelings
Don't you wonder what Ilsa Hermann would sound like, if she could bring herself to speak? I really appreciated the description of her "bruised lips" - too painful to speak of smile.
Debbie, it's fine to refer to previous chapters - I find myself going back many times looking for something. One fo the reasons it is so difficult - I can't read those page numbers!!! I think Liesel was used to the Rosa's whippings - she expects them as a natural consequence. But Hans had never laid a hand on her before this. I think that made an impression on her...which is what Hans felt he had to do.
Ella, do you think it a bit odd that Max has been in the Hubermann's basement all this time - and Rudy has never suspected a thing. I hope Death leaves Rudy alone too. There was something that Death said in these chapters that made me think he'd make it. I'll keep looking. I want the assurance that he will be one of the suriviors. Did anyone notice that?
Laura - the accordion has already played a significant role in the story, don't you think? Max doesn't seem to show much, if any interest in his father's accordion. I wonder why not. Have you noticed Hans playing it now that Max is in the house?
-
Hello, everyone. I'm loving this book and am almost caught up on reading your comments. I was away all day yesterday so am just getting back to the discussion. Would anyone else be surprised to find out that our author Zusak was born in 1975? He will turn 35 sometime this year.
I am amazed that he is so young. I would have guessed it was a much older person writing the book. Zusak really has depth, doesn't he? So much knowledge, such depth of emotion, so much insight about people and about life.
I saw another book by him when I was at the library today. Can't remember the title but it was the story of 2 Jewish boys who fight each other. Boxing, I believe. I'm guessing Marcus Zusak is Jewish and that it appeals to him to write about Jewish people and their outlook on life. Your thoughts on this?
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefcvr3.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
1. Will you share with us some of the images and metaphors that captured your attention and made you pause while reading these two sections?
2. Did Death spoil the story for you by revealing in advance "the three stupid things" that will be Rudy's downfall in two years' time? Why do you think he did that?
3. Can you explain what was meant by "the seventh side of a die?" How do you think Germany's invasion of Russia would affect the people on Himmel Street? Do you detect a change?
4. Can you forgive Liesel for the way she retaliated against the Mayor's wife? How can her anger be explained in the growing tension between the poor and the upper class at this time?
5. What is it about the the second drawing in Max's book that frightens Liesel? (p.280) What is he trying to express?
6. Death searches for beauty in Germany at this time, 1942. Do you think he succeeded? Is that what this book is all about?
7. Who do you see as the "Whistler" in Liesel's stolen book? What is it about this book that makes Liesel shiver when she reads it? Whose book do you think it had belonged to?
8. Do you believe the library window was left open on purpose? Why did Liesel want to steal "The Dream Carrier"? Do you remember what it was about?
9. Max and Liesel dream often in these chapters? Are they usually premonitions? What happened to Max in Liesel's dream?
10. Death's diary - Auschwitz, Mauthausen - June 23, 1942 Your comments on Zusak's writing in this chapter?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I & II ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
There are many different forms of reactions to this unbelievable life these people are living. We have Rosa and her gruff words but then her kindnesses to Max. And she continues to do other peoples laundry and ironing.
We have a truly sad Ilsa, still mourning her son who died in WWI but wanting to share her? books with Liesel.
We have Hans, Liesel's stepfather,who is running out of work for supporting his family but trudges on, in his home, trying to keep things bearable; who is outstanding in his kindness to Liesel, helping her learn to read while spending time in the basement with her, playing his accordion.
Isn't amazing how people carry on with their daily lives even in unordinary times? It seems that our maker has given us an appreciation for the everyday habits that keep us sane during bad times in our lives. One foot after another, we continue to function during the good times and the sad times.
-
I don't really think so, JOAN, about the author intending to tell a
story about mother's surviving the loss of their sons. In the setting
of this book..or any war...the loss of sons is an underlying, terrible
fact. I think Liesel and what she sees and learns is the core of this
story.
"..everyday habits that keep us sane during bad times in our lives"
How right you are, ANNIE. And a very pertinent observations here.
-
Joan P asked: Max doesn't seem to show much, if any interest in his father's accordion. I wonder why not. Have you noticed Hans playing it now that Max is in the house?
I think Max doesn’t have much interest in his father’s accordion because his father “vanished” when Max was very young and he never knew him. Consequently, the accordion doesn’t have good memories for him and probably only adds to his guilt of imposing on Hans.
I don’t recall the accordion being played after Max’s arrival, but I could be wrong.
Countrymm asked: I'm guessing Marcus Zusak is Jewish and that it appeals to him to write about Jewish people and their outlook on life. Your thoughts on this?
I plan to read some author interviews because I m curious too, but will do so after I finish the book so as to avoid spoilers.
I was glad to see that Leisel won’t be reading Max’s copy of Mein Kampf. As Max thought, “there was no way he’d give such propaganda to a young German girl. That would be like the lamb handing a knife to the butcher.” And another great metaphor. Then he painted over some pages from Mein Kampf to make a book for Leisel. I thought it was great that we readers were able to see the pictures and writing as it appeared in the book. The commonalities between Leisel and Max are drawing them together. I’m looking forward to seeing what happens with their relationship. Lastly, not only are people able to function normally in unordinary times, as Annie pointed out, but they are able to be creative too.
-
COUNTRMM: WELCOME! What do you want to be called?
I agree that he's probably Jewish. I'm glad he's young -- we have a lot more books to look forward to, and, hopefully, he'll get even better.
-
Interesting thoughts here today. Yes, our author is young - thirty-something - an Australian surfer boy. Can you believe that? JoanK, you're glad to hear hs's so young. . When I first heard how hold he was I was astounded. I mean, is it fair that one so young has all this talent dripping off his fingertips, 10 unique metaphors on each page.... I can certainly understand why you expected Markus Zusak to be an older, more seasoned writer with more life experience. countrymm.
We're told in his biography that he was born in Sydney to his Austrian father, Helmut, and his German mother, Elizabeth (Lisa)), who was born in Germany just before WWII. She was full of stories about what it was like growing up in Germany during the war. His father was an Austrian housepainter.
Does this couple remind you of any of the characters in The Book Thief?
Annie, it is amazing how people carry on their lives even under extreme circumstances. Poverty is one thing. But the consequences of hiding the Jews were so great. Yet they managed to do that and keep it from interfering with a schoolwork, with a soccer game in the street. Do you think there were more Jews hiding in the Himmel Street basements? I'm wondering if the people believed that things would go back to "normal" once this business was over, if they could just hang on. Or did they know that life would never be the same again?
I'm curious why some of you think the author is Jewish. Is it because he portrays Max with such empathy? In his interviews he tells how his mother was so affected as a child by the acts of mercy shown by the ordinary German citizens to the Jews being marched through the town on their was to Dacha. Do you think it was just wishful thinking - to finally get into the mind of the average German citizen to understand what it was like for them at this time? Laura, I look forward to hearing what you find when you have finished the book. I got the impression that the story was being told from the viewpoint of the German children (non-Jewish) who lived in Molching during the war.
Liesel and Max do seem to be growing closer as they spend more time together, don't they? Is their bond excluding Hans? Hans sat in this same basement painting letters on the wall to teach Liesel to read, but Max's gift for her 12th birthday surpasses that. Interesting that he is painting over the pages of Mein Kampf. Better than reading it. Have you read any of it from the link in the heading. I thought the beginning chapter on Hitler's boyhood and school experience was interesting. I'll bring you a bit of it later. Right now I'm going to add the simile to our growing list. Thanks, for that, Laura. (I'm glad Liesel isn't going to read it - too bad Max did.)
-
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Hitler also born in Austria and one of the jobs he did was house painting?
-
mmm, I think you're right, Frybabe! Not only that, he was a housepainter in Munich!
-
Hmmmm! Do you think our author was being tongue-in-cheek when he was interviewed?
-
I have read alot about Hitler in my lifetime. I have always read that he was Austrian, that he had Jewish blood himself and that he was always a bit or more than a bit mentally unbalanced. This man was not in anyway a member of his so-called
Aryian Race of people. I realize that I am older than most of you and have studied European History for most of my adult life. But I was not aware that most people did not know these things about this man who took over Germany and was responsible for the horrible attrocities committed in Germany in World II. I am very glad that this group is reading this book. I wish the whole world would read this book. Maybe then they would look into what happened during those years.Please don't take what I have said as a condemnation of any of you. I feel that in some way I have failed because I was a European History teacher.
-
Joan Grimes - Yes, I agree about Hitler. It always seemed to me that Hitler wanted his Germany and the Germans to be everything he himself was not. I too, didn't realise that 'everyone' does not know much about Hitler the man. I haven't studied him or the period particularly but find I know much more about him than I thought I did - perhaps we've been subjected to more TV documentaries on the period.
I think Zusak is definitely tongue in cheek in reference to the 'house painting' and Hitler - I thought he (Zusak) was being a little too obvious and heavy handed with that one.
I can't find any reference to Zusak's personal religious faith - Jewish or otherwise. I have assumed him to be Christian particularly as one side of his family is from Austria and as Traudee has pointed out Austria has always been predominantly Catholic.
JoanP says Zusak is an Australian surfer boy? I don't think he fits that mould Joan. Nearer the mark would be an- Australian English teacher who likes to surf in his spare time - like most Aussies who live on the coast.
Off topic - JoanP - I can't believe you have 'Canberra Day' noted on your calendar. Canberra Day commemorates the naming of our capital city, Canberra. It is a public holiday in the Aust. Capital Territory but is generally very low key. These days most Aussies in other parts of the country would be unaware of it. In Canberra the day is often marked by protests from indigenous groups to focus attention on perceived inequalities and more particularly on the loss of the tribal lands on which Canberra was built. You must be using a universal diary - maybe it's the same as mine :D
-
A lovely calendar, Gum - "Bon Appetit" - filled with vintage food posters. A Christmas present. I'm looking at it now, - it was printed in Maine, BUT the retail prices on the back list the US, Canada, Australia and NZ. So, I will expect to see more of your Australian holidays as the year goes on. A belated "happy" Canberra Day! ;)
I shouldn't have characterized our author as a "surfer boy" - but rather a young man who has just taken up surfing. It was a way of expressing my surprise that our author is such a young man.
Okay, someone tell me what the "tongue in cheek" reference is that you are all referring to - I am notoriously dense. Please help.
Were you referring to the fact that Adolf was a "house painter? Remember I told you I've been reading "Mein Kampf"? He actually DID paint houses -
"IN THE SPRING of 1912 I came at last to Munich.
In any case, this period before the War was the happiest and by far the most contented of my life. Even if my earnings were still extremely meager, ...painted only to be able to secure my livelihood or rather to enable myself to go on studying."
JoanG, your comment brought back memories of my own European History studies...which were limited to a World History class or two. Starting way back with the Hittites and as I remember, we always ended with World War I. In the 50's our history books did not go into World War II. We had a hard time finishing the book, and don't remember a special additional "unit" on more modern history.
Nevertheless, I don't think you can take comments here as indication that we are not familiar with Hitler's program the war at this time. Rather, I think we have been putting ourselves into the shoes of the children of Himmel St. and trying to understand this period from their perspective. Maybe I don't understand your comment that you have failed as a teacher. If you find some time, maybe you can explain that a bit more.
I confess a desire to know more about how the German citizens viewed Hitler's tactics and ideology during this time, especially as the war drew to a close. And did they really believe the whole thing was going to be over, if they could just endure a bit longer? Were they ignorant about the reality of Germany's position right up until the bombs began to fall? Conditions seem to be deteriorating on Himmel St....the kids are so hungry, they are stealing food. Even from the priests = but weren't they described as "fat"?
What interests me right now as we talk of Rosa and Hans - and then Markus Zusak's parents:
The fictitious Rosa Hubermann and Markus' mother, Lisa Zusak, both born and raised in Germany, both endured the war inside Germany. I just assumed they were both Catholic. And then Hans Hubermann and Helmut Zusak, both from Austria, both laborors - both housepainters...
-
World History, wow do I remember that class. It was all names and dates with a bare gloss over, trying to cover too much in a one semester class in high school. The mid-term for this class is the only one I "crammed" for and I still got a D. A D! I was horrified. It was only years later that I was able to truly connect dates or time periods with what was going on in the world. Speaking of connecting, remember James Burke's "Connections" series?
Regarding #6: No, I got the impression that Rudy would not survive. Death made a comment, don't remember what page, about Rudy not deserving the way he died. At least I thought he was talking about Rudy's future. If I get a chance I will have to go back and find it.
-
HISTORY TESTS. Speaking of memorization and dates, I've always had a hard time with that. World History in college was even worse for me than world history in high school. I think I just didn't get the gene for good memory. Piano recitals were always scary for me, because I feared I would get half way through a piece and forget the rest, then have to stand up, bow, and run off the stage. Now I am learning bridge and I can't remember the cards that others have played. Oh, well! We all have our strengths.
MARKUS ZUSAK. I am really enthralled with this author and plan to read more of his books. I believe he likes to write about rebellious characters, i.e., people who stand up to the Nazis, hide Jews in their basement, steal books (ha), and generally find a way to be true to themselves in the face of adversity. From what I have read, he has written 5 books starting at age 30 and he isn't even 35 yet.
P.S. Zusak's father was also a house painter.
-
Did I say World history...If I did I am sorry. I taught Advanced Placement European History. That is far different from World history. The course begain in about 1450 and we certainly did study WWI and WWII.Of course it is still a very long time to cover. Oh well I did not mean to get off onto something that might derail what we are hunting here.
The book does put you right there in this German neighborhood at the time . This would be an excellent book for study in a history class like I taught. I do know that I find something that I have missed in this book with each reading. That is what is so good about discussing the book together. We have so many things that we missed pointed out to us.Joan Grimes
-
It was a very busy week here. I barely had time to look at the posts, but none to answer, until now.
I've told my old German school friend about our discussion and she has expressed her admiration for our taking on this project. The book is a bestseller also in Germany, its title isDie Bücherdiebin (a composite noun. "Bücher = the plural of Buch, die is the feminine article, and in is the corresponding feminine suffix of the noun "Dieb").
My friend remembers the horrors of the Hitler era as I do, but she said that reading the book would be too upsetting for her. She confirmed what I have said in the pre-discussion : no one who did not live in Germany at that time can have even a remote idea of what life was like under a totalitarian regime. As I look back, it seems like a tight, gigantic net pulled over the country, like forcibly put-on, suffocating blinders. There is only one comparison: Soviet Russia under Stalin.
Mind control was total. All existing communications (books, the press, radio, films) were under the control of (the aptly named) Propaganda Minister Dr. Joseph Goebbels, a Rhinelander, educated by the Jesuits. He was of small build, had a clubfoot and a silver tongue - an orator par excellence. And the people believed him! He even sold tem on the Total War (before Germany invaded Russia). Goebbels killed his wife, his six children, then himself in Hitler's bunker in Berlin as Soviet soldiers stormed the capital. Various versions exist of Hitler's last hours in the bunker in the company of Eva Braun. Incidentally, nothing about her had been known in the land before.
Mein Kampf is a hate script of the worst order. Not only was it required reading but we had to write an essay about it. My father had a two-volume copy in his library, but I was physically unable to read it. I merely leafed through and then composed what may have been my first attempt at "creative writing" ... Hitler wrote the book in 1924 when he was imprisoned after the failure of the beer hall Putsch in Munich a year earlier. He was the instigator and ring leader. (Unfortunately they let him go too early.)
The man was a megalomaniac, quite possibly insane, an agent provocateur. All his speeches began the same way : back-tracking to the unfairness and injustices sof the Versailles Treaty. He can still be seen ranting and raving on PBS stations and the History channel in his hoarse voice, with the rolling rrr's in his mixed Bavarian-Austrian accent. (My instant reaction is to click the mute button.) Why on earth would anyone want to be exposed to such destructive ideas that brought so much misery and death to millions? Why is there such a morbid fascination with such an obvious instrument of evil? Are we seeking thrills?
Mein Kampf is banned in Germany and in Austria - but accessible in many countries in the world. There has been no new publication in Germany since 1948. The State of Bavaria, one of the states in the Federal Republic of Germany, owns the rights o the book --- and is allegedly trying to change things , as I saw on Google to my utter dismay.
The possession and trading of Hitler memorabilia is illegal in Germany and Austria, and so it should be in my opinion.
Allow me to make something clear : the intelligentsia, the nobility who wished (in vain) for the return of a monarchy, and the military high command did NOT support Hitler - originally. It is well to remember hat the two unsuccessful assassination attempts were carried out by military officers. They were hanged. At the risk of being called a snob I'd like to say that H. was uneducated: he habitually mis-pronounced "Versailler Vertrag". Those two ll's in the word are silent - as in Paella - but nobody ever had the gumption to correct him.
Frybabe, at the time there was a huge class difference in Germany. The intelligentsia dismissed Hitler - in the beginning - because he was under-educated. He did have artistic aspirations, and perhaps some talent. But his authoritarian father, who beat his son, sent him to a technical school instead, where H. did poorly. There was talk about some water colors he had painted, but I cannot remember any details. Yes, the man was referred to as MM (for mass murderer) and "house painter" among the hopelessly stifled opponents, though here were cells of student resistance, and I belonged to one of them. Markus Zusak's use of this ironic term is tongue-in-cheek, I believe, and from what I can tell, there is more irony in the story.
My answers to cardinal questions.
The existence of death camps was never common knowledge.
The disappearances generated rumors, which were ruthlessly suppressed wherever they flickered - but nothing concrete was known - until the camps were liberated, by Russians and Americans troops in 1945.
Ordinary Germans could NOT, and would not dare, to hide Jewish children, adolescents, much less adults. The penalty was death for the perpetrator(s), even the eradication of entire families. The preferred mode was hanging. And Jews were NOT the only victims.
Of course the world should never ever forget the Holocaust: that's why we have Spielberg's Schindler's List and now Zusak's book. I believe Zusak intends the book as just such a remembrance. It is more likely than not that he is Jewish. But does it matter? I wonder whether he ever visit Dachau.
Years before the iron curtain fell, my husband and I visited Buchenwald near Weimar in East Germany, and I took my daughter and son there in 1977. East Germany was still under Russian occupation; getting there was fraught with difficulties, in short a nightmare. But that is partially off topic and I will end right here.
-
Frybabe, that's the trouble with having Death as the Narrator of the story - he tends to let things slip before they take actually take place! Just wait until you read the beginning of Part V for Monday. I was quite upset at what he gave away at the beginning. Wait till you see it!
I sure hope they teach History differently than when we were young. Memorizing names and dates - a useless exercise. For anyone. Countrymm, I'm missing the same gene. No, I take that back. I could memorize long enough to spew stuff out on a test, but not long after. The facts were not "connected" to anything.
Do you suppose that with the computer in the classroom, things have changed? I would think so. JoanG, no you didn't say you taught World History - but that's the only European history I ever studied in school, buried in the history of the world! You taught AP European Studies! Oh good for you! I would have loved to study European History - with you! Clearly you love the subject and I'm sure that came through to your students.
I learned today that a movie has been made of The Book Thief. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I don't know how the book would translate to film. It's due to be released this year. THere were some scenes that would be terrific on the screen, but so much of the book is reading and rereading the words. What do you think of this? I'll go get the trailer and you can take a look for yourself. I think I'm going to wait until we've finished the book first - there may be spoilers, I didn't watch it all.
Traudee, I can't tell you how good it is for you to join us and share this memorable and painful time of your life with us. Thank you! I'm going to go read your post slowly and will be back later to comment. Thank you! Thank you!
-
"The book is a bestseller also in Germany!"
Have you heard anything about the German reaction to the book - those who lived through this time?
I'm thinking that Markus Zusak had remarkable first-person stories from his mother as his resource - but she was only as child during the war. Her memories would be the memories of a child. We are getting an idea of how this particular child had to grow up fast as her foster parents tried to impress on her the danger she was in whenever she opened her mouth outside her hom. I can think of only one thing worse than living in the suffocating and dangerous atmosphere - and that is being a parent at the time.
"And the people believed him! (Goebbels). He even sold tem on the Total War (before Germany invaded Russia)."Traude
Traude, did they believe him and in Hitler's ideology right up to the end?
Mein Kampf is a hate script of the worst order. Hitler wrote the book in 1924 when he was imprisoned after the failure of the beer hall Putsch in Munich a year earlier.Traude
Mein Kampf - My Struggle. I must admit I thought the title was My Memoirs, but now know it refers to his struggle. What exactly was his "struggle"?
" Are we seeking thrills?" Traude
I can't answer for others, but no, I don't believe we are seeking thrills watching this man on those documentaries. Rather, I think we are trying to understand how this man with so little charisma was able to command such complete resignation. Did his rantings make sense to those who listened? Did most people feel the way he did about racial cleansing? Or were they afraid of him and the military might at his command, perhaps?
Mein Kampf is banned in Germany and in Austria." Traude
-
Traudee, I read that there is an official edition of Mein Kampf - with explanatary footnotes - due to be distributed in Germany in 2015. I read too that this new edition met with the approval of Jewish leaders. I'll try to find that link and post it. I think it was an article in the UK's Telegraph. It seemed to be solid reporting.
There were cells of student resistance, and I belonged to one of them. Traude[/b]
Can you tell how widespread these cells were, Traudee, or were you unaware of others? Was it just students who actively resisted, or were there others - older people? You say the intelligentsia dismissed H. in the beginning. Then what happened?
"The existence of death camps was never common knowledge. Traude".
That is a relief - can you imagine your life if you knew what was going on in Dachau for example, if you lived in Munich?
"Ordinary Germans could NOT, and would not dare, to hide Jewish children, adolescents, much less adults."
That is important for us to know. Either the Hubermann family is an extraordinary family, or the story is Markus Zusak's fiction. With so many similarities between his own parents and Rosa and Helmut Zusak, I tend to believe that some of what he is writing is autobiographical. But again, that's only my feelings on the matter.
Somewherer else I read that there were many Jews hidden in basements at the time. But I can't find the source, so shouldn't bring it up .
Which reminds me - PBS is doing a production of The Diary of Anne Frank in April. It will on Holocaust Remembrance Day. PBS is our Reading Promotion Partner in the Library of Congress. Because of this, they are making copies of the book available to our readers here at SeniorLearn - free of charge. If you would like a copy, email me and I'll send it as soon as I receive them...
I can't remember how long ago I read this book.
Traude, words cannot adequately thank you enough for sharing this time with us. (Someday, I think you really ought to read this book.)
-
JoanP, it took me a long time to compose and edit my earlier post. I'll answer yours more filly tomorrow.
Yes, there was at least one more cell, in Munich, and how I came to know about it is another story.
Meanwhile here's the URL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose
-
Here is another relevant URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer
-
Two more urls :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niemoeller
-
Good heavens! I am absent for one day and come back to find a full page of thoughts and opinions. I am off to church but will be home to check out all of these urls that Traude has provided for us. Who better than someone who was forced to endure these horrors can we trust? Thank you Traude. I can't believe that come tomorrow we will begin another section- there is so much to point out in Zusak's prose.
-
FRYBABE, I think that emphasis on names, events and dates is why I felt
I learned more real history reading well researched historical fiction.
That always gave me more background and insight into the events.
COUNTRYMM, a suggestion on remembering the cards. Don't try to remember
them all, just keep track of the high cards. ('Okay, that's the queen/ace
gone and I've got the jack. King still out.)
TRAUDE, thank you for those links. It hurt to read that six students
of the White Rose lost their lives. I'm glad to know the White Rose
students are still honored. I know something of Bonhoeffer, and I read
the Niemoller poem many years ago. It made an impression that has stayed
with me since. I can't tell you how much your passionate posts are expanding
my understanding of the average German citizen in those days.
-
After Traude's statement that the ordinary German would not have dared hide a Jew, I
decided I needed to re-check my impressions on that subject. I found that most of that
had indeed occurred outside the boundaries of Germany. I found it in Poland, the Netherlands,
Demark. Even the rescue of Jews by Muslims. I noted the following and included two of the
links. I was aware of such activity in the Netherlands and Denmark's support and defense of
their Jewish population, but wholly unaware of the activity in Poland and by the Muslims. Poland,
with it's history of pogroms, was particularly surprising.
Jewish children were hidden in the Netherlands in WWII to save them from
deportation. (Institute for Global Jewish Affairs)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_
the_Holocaust#cite_note-Lukas-1 (Grouped by nationality, Poles represent
the biggest number of people who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6-df9L0aDI (a video lecture on Non-Jews
Who Helped Jews During the War.)
For the Muslim interventions, check out the book "Besa". You can find it on Amazon.
-
I'm so grateful for the links and background information our readers are providing. Thanks to all.
OFF TOPIC completely. Spring is coming and it's almost here.
Check out Molly and McGee, wild barn owls in San Marcos, CA, near me. Molly is sitting on 6 eggs. The owlets are supposed to start hatching on Monday. Daddy McGee flies into the nest too. The nest is 14 ft. high.
People are watching the live feed from all over the world. Here is the link for you.
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/the-owl-box
-
Until I read this book, I had no idea that Hitler Youth membership was compulsory.
Traude Thank you so much for the links. I knew there was some resistance within Germany, but knew virtually nothing about it. Being a part of the resistance was an exceedingly dangerous and brave thing for you to do. Thank you for sharing.
-
TRAUDE: thank you so much -- I can hardly understand how difficult this must be for you. But I believe strongly that everyone needs to know what happened there, so it can never be repeated.
And thank you, countrymm, for the owl box -- I will watch it eagerly. Do you love birds, too?
-
Personally, I have no desire to read Mein Kampf. I like to read stories of people’s experiences during World War II, most of them fictional. I am not interested in the politics, the military, etc, but, rather, the human stories. That is the way I am approaching this book, trying to understand the lives of individuals during the time.
A wonderful non-fiction book of stories which I highly recommend is Small Miracles of the Holocaust. Here is a synopsis from the publisher:
From the authors of the bestselling Small Miracles series comes this inspirational collection of over 50 stories - each with the upbeat twist ending that has become the trademark of this remarkable series.
The authors, both second-generation Holocaust survivors, have culled stories from before, during, and after the Holocaust that demonstrate the full strength and power of the human spirit.
Stories reaffirming that nothing truly happens by accident…
Even during the worst of times small miracles did happen - and the legacies of those individuals live on.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Small-Miracles-of-the-Holocaust/Yitta-Halberstam/e/9781599214078/?itm=1&USRI=small+miracles+of+the+holocaust (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Small-Miracles-of-the-Holocaust/Yitta-Halberstam/e/9781599214078/?itm=1&USRI=small+miracles+of+the+holocaust)
-
Annie-
One foot after another, we continue to function during the good times and the sad times.
That’s what this story is all about- surviving a revolution. How could these people withstand the loss of their loved ones and for many, reversals of their fortune? The whole political structure was altered and everyone had to stand by with nothing but hope in their hearts. I agree with Laura, it was good that Liesel was not allowed to read that drivel in Mein Kampf and Max 's drawings led to a commanality with the girl.
Joan thought it meant My memoirs, and honestly I always thought it meant “my camp.” Yes, Joan, that is a question that I would like answered as well- just what did Hitler consider to be his struggles?
JoanG-I must be different, I loved all of those European history lessons and trying to plot the births and deaths of kings and Queens with their varied families.
I loved anything pertaining to history and had no problem memorizing dates for tests. Hand me a math test, on the other hand and it made a striking difference in my grades.
Laura-Even during the worst of times small miracles did happen - and the legacies of those individuals live on. That is portrayed by Sir Martin Gilbert who testified to that in the link that Babi left for us. He noted the nobelest of people from all different facet that assisted the Jews. He remarked that there were some thatt had to hide these facts from their own family to protect everyone.
-
I felt it nauseating that a German governor stated that the populace would be exposed to typhus, the dreaded disease that the "Jews carried" and offered rewards for flushing them out. Rewards of flour or salt or booze for a human life! How much money would you betray a person for, even if you were starving? Terrible cruelties were inflicted but the genuine goodness of man shone through the dark days. The righteousness and honor of people broke through here and there.
Thank you Traude and Babi for providing these links showing us that there was even honor amongst thieves as they ingeniously secreted some Jewish folks in the sewers, circuses and zoos.
Traude- You said that the Germans did not know of the existance of the concentration camps? Where in the world did they think these Jews were being sent ? Did they honestly believe they were being "sent east" to work slave labor and? What did they think when none of them returned and their homes were destroyed and desecrated?
-
Andy, I can't answer that question. As I said before , there were only indistinct rumors, nothing concrete, ever.
People lived in a climate of fear and intimidation, worried about their daily existence - the empty shelves of grocery stores and useless ration cards. Informers were everywhere. If you were overheard saying, for example, in 1943 or 1944, "I can't see how we can win the final vitory ...", you were a goner. It happened to a classmate of mine in Heidelberg.
Rüdiger was his name. He was one of very few men in an overwhelmingly female student body. He was unfit for the draft because he had a pneumothorax. Some time in the spring of 1944, his parents came for a visit and stayed at the Hotel Europa in Heidelberg. hey had lunch there togeyher, and it is likely that they discussed the war, which was going so bady. We never knew what happened, but apparently he was overheard as expressing doubt of the "final victory, in a loud voice, fueled perhaps by a glass of wine -too many. He went tow ash his hands and was not seen thereafter.
Indoctrination began early: members of the Hitler Youth were encouraged to denounce their parents(!!!) if they didn't tow the party line.
It was the opposite in my family. My mother , a perfectionist, who was hard to live with and impossible to please, loved the Führer. It's too long a story. Suffice it to say that in September of 1943, when I was thome for a semester break, we were bombed out of our home in a suburb in the city of of Mannheim. The home as inhabitabke and we we were invited into the undamaged villa of my best friend's parents. (It was later requisitioned and became the home of a US officer.)
I returned to finish my studies in Heidelberg. The circumstances of my parents' resettlement in an out-of-the-way village are too "involved" to be related briefly.
By 1944 train schedules were no longer in effect. Endless hours of waiting were a given. Daylight attacks by British Spitfire planes were to be expected. On one occasion I arrived in the middle of the night at the (awful) abode. My mother angrily confronted me, saying:"Why didn't you write to us? And what have you been doing? Whatever it is, you had better stop or I will inform it or I will inform the Gestapo." What can one say to that?
The fact is that I had written. I could only surmise that my mail had been censured and that I was under suspicion. It was true, I soon learned.
-
Oh dear Lord, I can not imagine a parent turning in their own child to the Gestapo. I feel so bad for you Traudee. An injustice such as that one is not easily forgotten, nor forgiven.
Nor can I imagine , even with an early doctrination turning in one of my parents for any type of infraction. Did people pray together? Were the churches infiltrated with the Gestapo thugs, as well?
-
Been reading through the comments on people who helped the Jews escape Germany. Not mentioned is a Japanese man who worked in the Japanese embassy in Berlin. Japan by that time was an ally of Germany. He forged papers allowing many Jews to immigrate to Japan where there was no discrimination against the Jews. He was suspected and then recalled to Japan. After the war these Jews moved on to the US and Israel. A documentary was made of his life but I can't remember the title.
-
Good morning.
We learn right off the rip that Rudy finally receives that first kiss from Liesel and sadly it is at the time of his "decimation."
Do you believe what Zusak says -"Even death has a heart?"
-
Do you believe what Zusak says -"Even death has a heart?"
Certainly Death, our narrator, has a heart. He's effective as a narrator, but he doesn't quite come together for me as Death itself.
-
This is a very minor point, but I liked the touch that you can read bits of incompletely painted overMein Kampf in the background of The Standover Man.
-
PatH - I agree about Death - he/she/it has too many human attributes -another instance of the way we always create in our own image.
I really think it is the minor points that make this such a good novel. They all combine into a whole that is greater than the sum...
-
I have finished "The Book Thief" and really liked it. Beautifully written and well presented. I think I will look for "Nella's Last War".
Has anyone noticed that there are a plethora of books out about the folks who lived in Europe during WWII? Also, when I was in the library yesterday, they had a book up on the "new arrivals" display which is about a German submarine captain during WWII and what the war looked like from the other side.
Scanning the TV yesterday, I came upon one our History channels which was presenting German officers from WWII and their take on the war.
-
Adoannie: I wonder if the book you saw at the library was one written by Fritz Otto Busch? He wrote many books relating to the German navy and its battles ' Drama of the Scharnhorst' and Story of the Prinz Eugen' come to mind immediately. Busch was originally a naval man himself and became a prolific writer and published perhaps as many as 80 novels - war history - children's books etc. He also translated English books into German.
-
Yes, I've noticed Adoannie. In fact I have just ordered Sarah's Key.
http://www.amazon.com/Sarahs-Key-Tatiana-Rosnay/dp/0312370849/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268670145&sr=1-1
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefcvr3.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
1. Will you share with us some of the images and metaphors that captured your attention and made you pause while reading these two sections?
2. Did Death spoil the story for you by revealing in advance "the three stupid things" that will be Rudy's downfall in two years' time? Why do you think he did that?
3. Can you explain what was meant by "the seventh side of a die?" How do you think Germany's invasion of Russia would affect the people on Himmel Street? Do you detect a change?
4. Can you forgive Liesel for the way she retaliated against the Mayor's wife? How can her anger be explained in the context of the growing tension between the poor and the upper class at this time?
5. What is it about the the second drawing in Max's book that frightens Liesel? (p.280) What is he trying to express?
6. Death searches for beauty in Germany at this time, 1942. Do you think he succeeded? Is that what this book is all about?
7. Who do you see as the "Whistler" in Liesel's stolen book? What is it about this book that makes Liesel shiver when she reads it? Whose book do you think it had belonged to?
8. Do you believe the library window was left open on purpose? Why did Liesel want to steal "The Dream Carrier"? Do you remember what it was about?
9. Max and Liesel dream often in these chapters. Are they premonitions? What happened to Max in Liesel's dream?
10. Death's diary - Auschwitz, Mauthausen - June 23, 1942 Your comments on Zusak's writing in this chapter?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I - IV ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
Jackie
I am not familiar with any authors who are writing about Germany and WWII and your authors' names don't ring a bell. Buuuuuuuuuut, while I was looking around at titles for this subject look at what I found on Amazon and do search the pages of the book and look at the titles for these stories. Very familiar topics after reading TBT.
http://www.amazon.com/Sixty-Years-Somewhere-Germany-Contemporaries/dp/059540135X/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268671171&sr=1-6
-
Annie, I would love to read that book - I treasure the eye witness accounts of those who lived inside Germany during those war years, especially towards the end of the war. That's why your account of what you lived through is so appreciated, Traudee. Priceless information. Have you ever put this information you are sharing with us in writing? I hope so. I marvel at your bravery during this time - can't decide what took more courage - participating in the cell, knowing how dangerous this was for you and your cohort - or incurring the wrath and punishment from your own mother. I can't understand how you have been able to come through such an experience.
Thank all of you for the book recommendations and the links. I've spent the last hour reading through the links and feel I know so much more than I ever did. Thank you!
Babi, after reading the link you provided about attempts to rescue Jews outside of Germany, I was curious to go on to look for more information about harboring Jews within the country at the time. As Traudee told us, the punishment was death...hanging or beheading, so hiding a young Jewish man like Max Vandenburg was highly unusual. But some must have risked this to protect friends and neighbors. Here is a site I found -
"Throughout Nazi-occupied Europe as well as in Germany, ordinary citizens, even strangers, hid Jews from the Gestapo, often at great personal risk.
Historian Marion Kaplan of Queens College and City University in New York, states that between 10-12,000 Jews went “underground” as the deportations began in Germany; only 25% survived. These “submerged Jews” frequently shuttled from one safe house to another while others tried to blend into society. Kaplan’s study emphasizes the lives of Jews in Berlin.
Kaplan, writing about German Jews, comments that, “The Germans who hid them showed compassion and daring, revealing the possibility of resistance to genocide.” Ordinary citizens knew the potential costs of hiding Jews. In most cases, this meant death for the entire family. Sharing meager food supplies, especially as the war progressed, added to the strain."
http://german-history.suite101.com/article.cfm/hiding_jews_during_world_war_ii
You have to wonder what motivated Hans Hubermann to risk the lives of his entire family to save Max, don't you? Was it more than a feeling of indebtedness to Max's father?
-
Today we begin Part Five - to find the building stress of the war and the "occupation" taking its toll on those who live on Himmel Street.
As Andy says, we are told by the narrator "right off the zip" in this chapter that Rudy will receive his first kiss from Liesel at the time of his decimation. He also tells us his death will take place in two years.
I guess my question is "WHY"? If he, Death, has such a heart, why break ours before we even come to it. What can possibly be gained in the telling of the story to let us in on this bit of information now?
-
I have Sarah's Key on my Kindle but have not read it yet.
I think I will start it soon. Joan Grimes
-
I guess I'm different than most of you in that I have read everything I could get my hands on about WW2.
For a quick insight into life in those days in Germany (if anyone is interested) I would suggest watching some films made about that period in German. Here are some titles: Europa Europa
The Final Days
Downfall
The Tin Drum*
* The Tin Drum is based on a book by the Nobel Prize winner Gunter Grass. This amazing author , in his autobiography,
reveals that he himself was drafted into the German Army at the age of 16 towards the end of the war. His books, especially, The Tin Drum, give insight into the German world during the rise of Hitler.
If by chance anyone is interested in Germany after the war there is the German Oscar Winning foreign film from two
years ago: "The Lives of Others". It deservedly beat out every other foreign film. It is about the life of a German Stassi agent who spies on others and how this affects his own life.
-
JUDE, you are different. My husband was in the Pacific in WWII on a cruiser, saw some terrible things, wouldn't talk about it, but I haven't read any books that have been written from a German point of view until this one. Well, I have read the Diary of Anne Frank, probably some that I can't remember. I'm not sure that I want to read any of them or watch the films. I've seen just a few films about WWII, enough! I hate war, I hate that I am still around to see America involved in another!
JOANP, to answer one of your questions I wonder, also, why the author (Death) tells us in advance of Rudy's death. The book, actually, is about death, it's all around Liesel, from page One until the end. Truly, truly sad!
Did Zusak get some of these stories from his mother? They sound so real - of course, he writes well, but the stories sound so real.
I had to put the book away after reading a few chapters. It's too much.
-
The Russian front and how it affected Himmel Street? I don't have the book in front of me, but I think Hans/Rosa's son is fighting in Russia? I kept thinking while reading the book that the author can't find much to be happy about in his characterization; he even has to tell us that Hans' two children are not close to their parents. Trudy, the daughter! Forget her, why put her in the story? And their son! I can't find the words.
Hitler's war probably split generations, don't you think? Older people, for many reasons, were very tired of war, even, though, I know how the Versailles Treaty affected the country. We discussed that treaty for a month a few years ago, I'll find the title in the archives and bring it here. It was a very good discussion and we learned a great deal.
As I remember reading from somewhere, the older military men had contempt for Hitler for quite awhile until they were forced by his brownshirts to face up to his power. It's difficult for some of us when we hear those rants of his to understand how anyone could have come under his influence, and some never did. Zusak is good to remind us of that fact in writing this book.
-
"MacMillan disputes that the Paris arrangements led directly to WWII; decisions made afterward, she argues, were more significant. The peacemakers made mistakes, she concedes, but "could have done much worse." - PARIS 1919 by Margaret MacMillan/b]
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Paris1919.html
-
It's difficult for some of us when we hear those rants of his to understand how anyone could have come under his influence, and some never did. Zusak is good to remind us of that fact in writing this book.
Excellent point, Ella. Yes, we need to be reminded of what happened in Germany before WWII. Even some people here in the US thought he was right and they supported him through the German Bunds that were pretty prolific around our country.
-
Jude, I haven't managed to tackle "The Tin Drum", but I read another of Grass' books, "Cat and Mouse", much less complicated. I don't remember details, since I read it when it came out (1961, yikes! where has the time gone?) but it deals with adolescents, and come to think of it has some of the same tone as "The Book Thief" does when it's talking about Liesl and her friends. My husband Bob read a lot of Grass--his German was better than mine, and he read them in the original. There was a 1958 movie, Wir Wunderkinder, Aren't We Wonderful in this country, dealing with life in Germany before, during, and after WWII.
-
I have to say, I did not like Part Five. I just found it a bit boring and uninteresting. However, I thought Part Six was wonderful. Phew! I got a little concerned that the book was going to bog down.
Alf asked: We learn right off the rip that Rudy finally receives that first kiss from Liesel and sadly it is at the time of his "decimation."
Do you believe what Zusak says -"Even death has a heart?"
Yes, I do believe death, as personified in this book, has a heart.
There is death.
Making his way through all of it.
On the surface: unflappable, unwavering.
Below: unnerved, untied, and undone. (pg. 309)
-
laura- That's why I love to read with othr people and discuss a book. I loved Part V. I could feel the arm of the Germans getting stronger and stronger. I loved the fact that Liesel stole newspapers for Max and bathed his life with sunshine by merely describing the weather and the clouds outside of his view. They bonded by drawing pictures together and "sharing the words" of a book even if noone read aloud or spoke. "When he was alone, his most distinct feeling was of disappearance." Oh that saddened me when I read it- a young man of 24 years drawing a picture in his mind of beating the hell out of the Fuhrer. In his hallucination the referee was "willing to turn a blind eye" to Hitlers tactics. That was no different than what was going on outside in the streets. "The Fuhrer pounded away at the punching-bag Jew."
What about that number 7? The seventh side of the die? Bad luck- Liesel wondered when looking at the Mayor's door, after loosing their employment, why did they need so much space to get thru a door? Here is poor Max and the Hubbermanns crammed tightly together and she realizes to her amazement just how large was the width of the door.
She finally spoke aloud with venom and spite to Ilsa Hermann when dismissed.
-
Part V also gives a hint as to what may have happened to our Rudy. It seems as if Franz Deustcher- the irate Hitler Youth leader and Viktor Chemmel were all over poor Rudy and Tommy as Rudy lost all of the time in his dealings with Chemmel, enduring problem after problem at the Hitler Youth. I didn't feel it etting bogged down but ominous. WE know something bad is about to happen. AND- it IS the Ides of March today.
-
Guten Morgen!
It is interesting to read the varying reactions to these chapters. Some find the chapters on Liesel's life on Himmel Street during the war "uninteresting" and others find the details of her life so real - too real to read in one sitting. Ella, yes, in several interviews the author relates that the stories came from his mother, who spent the war years as a young girl in Germany - I assume that much of what we are reading is autobiographical.
As we move from chapter to chapter, we are are also moving forward inn time. We see Liesel growing up. We read of the increasing poverty, the hunger and the cold. And we also see that for some, conditions are worse. The priest is "fat," the Mayor and his wife live on in their big warm house on the hill. The Hubermann's continue to subsist on Rosa's meager soup which is shared with Max - and Rudy.
Ella, I'm still puzzling about the revelation that Rudy is going to die in two years' time. Death reveals this information so abruptly - I really wasn't prepared for this, were you?
***A SMALL ANNOUNCEMENT***
ABOUT RUDY STEINER
He didn't deserve to die the way he did
What did the author achieve by this revelation? Will we start viewing Rudy in a different light now? Are we suddenly made aware that the war is going to affect these children on Himmel Street within the next two years? Liesel? Max? Do you see other another reason? Does Death know in advance when each will die? Or is the story told in hindsight and Death, so overcome with the memory, let's it slip out?
Andy, please help me, I am still hung up on the implications of a seven-sided die. I understand it means bad luck - but I can't visualize a seventh side. Don't dice just have six sides? The author describes each of the first six sides, which seem to me to deal with daily life on Himmel St. while the war is going on somewhere else - Max's haircut, dreams, painting pictures - but the seventh side (?) "is no regular die" - You've known all along it had to come...this small piece of changing fortune is a signal of things to come."
Jude - I read the The Tin Drum so many years ago, (40?) I remember that it was set in Germany during Hitler's rise. I remember him as a sexually precocious little boy and quite defiant of authority - of German authority. I remember being more interested in this boy and in Gunther Grasse's writing, than in the reality of his environment. I think I'm going to pull it off the shelf and give it another try. I've had enough of Mein Kampf. ;)
-
JoanP- Luck is interpreted and understood in many different ways.
In this instance, thus far, the Hubbermann's and Max have been winning, repeatedly against significant odds. Their luck is about to change- the laws of probability are going to catch up with them.
but I can't visualize a seventh side. Don't dice just have six sides? The author describes each of the first six sides, which seem to me to deal with daily life on Himmel St. while the war is going on somewhere else - Max's haircut, dreams, painting pictures - but the seventh side (?) "is no regular die" -
Yes, there is no 7th side to the die, but that will soon change, as will their luck.
-
Yes, the usual die with square faces has to have six sides. I took the seventh side to be a deliberately surreal touch--now we are going into strange territory.
-
There is such a thing as a seven sided die. Apparently it was invented to use with a variant game of chess. This article also provides a link to an extensive Wikipedia article. I had no idea there were so many different kinds of dice. I didn't see anything regarding a seven-sided die being unlucky, but then I just skimmed the articles for now.
http://www.maa.org/editorial/mathgames/mathgames_05_16_05.html
Regarding the announcement of Rudy's future demise, it was that particular announcement that gave me the impetuous to read ahead. I really wanted to know how he died. So now I am done with the book and have to be careful not to give anything away.
-
As anyone whose children played Dungeons and Dragons is aware, there are plenty of dice with different numbers of sides (in D & D it's 4, 6, 8, 12, 20).
If you scroll down a fair way in this Wikipedia article, there are pictures and a table of many different shapes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice)
-
Frybabe, we were posting at the same time. Your article is better than my article.
-
PatH, I went back and added a bit to my post. The author of the article I posted said the Wikipedia article is excellent.
-
Gosh, you guys are into that "seventh side" business.
Was it ALF who stated that the children's life on Himmel Street was rather normal until their luck out. Yes, they liked soccer didn't they and what an adventure stealing books. And, of course, they could not have got away with that without Ilsa Hermann's cooperation. Leaving the window open, didn't she leave the Dictionary on the window sill?
And Rudy got a kiss, how very sad!
Frybabe: I finished the book also, and to tell the truth I was rather glad to put it down. And it was a very good book, but all of it was depressing I thought!
Perhaps I was the only one that thought so! But I had to finish it.
Did anyone think it went on a bit much at times? Am I supposed to talk about the whole book yet?
JOANP: Yes, I think you are correct. Death knows when people in the book are to die and how they are to die and gives the reader notice of that; perhaps, as you say, it is to move us forward in time? As the poverty and hunger progress, Death creeps closer. Just as the Jews die in the concentration camps.
The images of the Jews being marched through the city!
But I think I am ahead of the chapters. I must stop!
-
My son played and still plays war games starting out with Dungeons and Dragons in 1970's. And there are 7 sided dies used for playing.
From Wikipedia:
Some dice are polyhedral other than cubical in shape. Both seven– and eight-sided dice of modern format are stated in the 13th century Libro de los juegos to have been invented by Alfonso X in order to speed up play in chess variants.[11][12]
In more recent times around the early 1950s,[citation needed] they have become popular among players of wargames and have since been employed extensively in role-playing games, German-style board games, and trading card games. Although polyhedral dice are a relative novelty during modern times, some ancient cultures appear to have used them in games (as evidenced by the discovery of two icosahedral dice dating from the days of ancient Rome, currently on display in the British Museum). In modern times, such dice are typically plastic, and have faces bearing numerals rather than patterns of dots. Reciprocally symmetric numerals are distinguished with a dot in the lower right corner
-
Ella and Frybabe, it's good of you not to give anything away for those of us who haven't read ahead. It's hard, though. Last week I accidentally read ahead a few pages, enough to let me know that Rudy would die, and it was hard to keep muzzled.
I presume that Death is telling the story at a later time, after it's all over, and that's why he knows everything. I don't think he knows ahead of time when a person will die. What do you think.
-
Ella, PatH , I remembered something from the beginning of the book - so I just went back to check to be sure.
Death: ..."often I am reminded of her, and in one of my vast array of pockets, I have kept her story to retell...It is one of the small legion I carry, each one extraordinary in its own right. Each one an attempt - an immense leap of an attempt - to prove to me that you, and your human existence are worth it.
Here it is. One of a handful. The Book Thief.
If you feel like it, come with me. I will tell you a story. I'll show you something."
So it seems that Death is looking back, already familiar with the story he is about to tell. Is it because he has a heart then, that he cannot help himself from blurting out that Rudy is going to die?
Ella, a number of us have not finished the book - so please try really hard to not go beyond Part VI in your book. I know it's difficult now that you know what's going to happen - but we're a large group and a number of us haven't read ahead. Thank you too, Frybabe!
But please don't go away. We need your viewpoints and input!
-
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21wHN7THSGL._SL500_AA216_.jpg)
The seven sided die
Well, who knew there was such a thing as a seven-sided die? Obviously some of you did. My boys never got into Dungeons and Dragons. I'm thinking though, that Markus Zusak may have. He's 35 - just the right age for such imaginative play. What do you think? Times like this, I wish we had him in on this discussion.
My first thought when Andy said there was no such thing and PatH thought the reference meant we were getiing into strange territory with the shift in alliance, Britain bonding with Russia- just as Germany invaded Russia. I think that's what Zusak might have been saying. A 7 sided die is not what one expects to fall. Something unusual, but possible as we now see.
Things had been chugging along with a sort of sameness in Molching - and suddenly the town fills with Nazi soldiers checking basements for suitable bomb shelters.
I've a question. At some point, Max says he plans to give his book of drawings to Liesel - "when all this nonsense is over." Do you think the German people really believed the war would be over some day, some day soon - and that Germany would be victorious and life would resume with some degree of normalcy? Did they have any idea that they were in immediate danger, that bombs would actually fall in their streets and playgrounds? \
From what we are reading here, don't you get the impression that the people feel that if they can just hold on, their situation will improve? Of course for Max, if Germany did succeed, things would not improve for him. What was he thinking when he spoke about the time all this nonsense was over?
-
I have been trying to re-read this book according to our schedule.. It's been hard to keep my opinions to myself, because I am not sure how much I am remembering and I am trying not to jump ahead and give anything away. It's much better to let others form their own impressions and come to their own conclusions. I thought this was a very insightful book and that the characters were excellently drawn. I had distinct visual images of a number of them. Wow! Now that is good writing (imo).
It has also been interesting because many of you are pointing out things I missed the first time around. That just proves to me that really good books are worth re-reading--quickly, the first time to get the story and then again to savor the language.
Sally
-
OH, I'M SORRY!!
I just lent my book to a neighbor, so I shall not misbehave again.
JOANP, yes, the Germans thought the war would be over, but victorious? I don't think so, they were just surviving until the end of it as best they could. I keep thinking of Rosa's soups that they were subsisting on, were the soups three meals a day?
Zusak, to my recollection, does not give us a clue as to what they expected at the end. And bombs on their street? The must have known; they knew of bomb shelters, didn't the Nazi soldiers declare Hans/Rosa's basement too shallow for one?
Weren't they all afraid to talk of defeat? Someone could overhear!
-
Traudee said:"People lived in a climate of fear and intimidation, worried about their daily existence - the empty shelves of grocery stores and useless ration cards."
A 75 yr. old friend of mine has lived in the US for approximately 38 tears. However, she grew up in Germany at about the time this book took place and endured such food shortages and frightening events that she still keeps one quart of whole milk in her refrigerator at all times. She doesn't even like milk. I believe it just reassures her that she's going to be safe today and that she will not go hungry.
Traudee, can you relate to this?
-
Ella Gibbons said:
"I hate war, I hate that I am still around to see America involved in another!"
I feel exactly the same way and so do my grown children. WHY does war persist? Aren't there better ways to mediate conflict? How much longer will it take the world to learn to talk to each other without destroying each other?
-
JoanP said:
"You have to wonder what motivated Hans Hubermann to risk the lives of his entire family to save Max, don't you? Was it more than a feeling of indebtedness to Max's father?"
I believe it was much more. He was just a very empathetic, loving man. I don't think he could have stopped himself from helping a person desperate for shelter and protection. He could not stand to see starving Jews paraded through the street. He had to offer at least one of them some food.
One of our earliest discussion questions was something like 'why do you think Rosa and Hans were attracted to each other'? I wondered about this a lot. Of course since the book is fiction, I think we need to consider Zusak's purpose in creating any of his characters. In this case, I feel he put Rosa and Hans together to demonstrate to his readers that it might take both softness and caring (Hans) as well as toughness and hardness (Rosa) to survive a harrowing revolution.
-
RE: NEXT MONTH'S BOOK DISCUSSION
Next month we will be discussing Lynne Olson's book "Troublesome Young Men".
I just noticed that she has a new book for 2010 which might interest us. My local library has ordered 3 copies.
The title is "Citizens of London : the Americans who stood with Britain in its darkest, finest hour".
-
Something jumped out at me while reading ALF's post. She said "a seven sided Die"
Could the seventh side really mean Death (Die)?
Although my son played Dungeons and Dragons and I am familiar with the various different numbered Dice , every symbol in the book points to death.The author is preoccupied with death and dying. His narrator is Death itself. No wonder some people are feeling overwhelmed. I too have to escape to a different kind of book to clear it of some of the horror.
I have turned to a non fiction book to read before sleep. Something long ago and far away -with a happy outcome. "Longitude" by Dava Sobel. The story of the uneducated man who discovered the way for sailors to measure Longitude so that their ships would not break up on rocky shores.
What an antidote to Nazi Germany!
-
JudeS
I think we read a Dava Sobel book on the old SN, many moons ago. Here's a link to our 1998 discussion of "Longitude"!! This was when our beloved LJ was with us. And Walter and Tom Hubin. Didn't we meet them in NY and Chicago? It was many many moons ago. Enjoy!
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Longitude.html
AND
Here's a link to the Nova program about Longitude from Oct 6, 1998
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/longitude/
-
Today we begin Part Five - to find the building stress of the war and the "occupation" taking its toll on those who live on Himmel Street.
As Andy says, we are told by the narrator "right off the zip" in this chapter that Rudy will receive his first kiss from Liesel at the time of his decimation. He also tells us his death will take place in two years.
I guess my question is "WHY"? If he, Death, has such a heart, why break ours before we even come to it. What can possibly be gained in the telling of the story to let us in on this bit of information now?
It was a shock to read at the beginning of this section that Rudy is going to die. But he doesn't die in the next couple of sections. We still get to savor Rudy's life and get distracted by other characters for a while. That sort of seems true to life for me. We all know that we are all going to die but (for good or ill) we're able to suppress the fact and live on.
I also think it was sort of a kindness that Death told us that Rudy would die. It was a great shock but it lets us prepare somewhat for when Rudy actually dies in the book.
-
Oh Marcie- well said.
We still get to savor Rudy's life and get distracted by other characters for a while. That sort of seems true to life for me. We all know that we are all going to die but (for good or ill) we're able to suppress the fact and live on.
We all know that we are going to die- so let us enjoy it while we can. Rudy, albeit his dislike of Deutscher and fear his of Viktor always enjoyed himself, particularly when he and Liesel were "thieving." You had to laugh at their antics (they are children remember) when Rudy left her shoes at the Mayor's house during one of their raids. ::)
It seems he was so often humiliated: he endured swallowing mud, being forced to the ground, undergoing drill sessions, running in the cold, having his hair chopped off by Deutscher, being half strangled and all of the time keeping up his bravado. He valiantly attempted to protect Liesel when Viktor flung her book The Whistler into the river and waded into the frigid waters or the Amper to retrieve it for her.
Rudy Steiner was scared of the book thief's kiss. He must have longed for it so much. He must have loved her so incredibly hard. so hard that he would never ask of her lips again and would go to his grave without them.
-
Jude- yes! Good point, I do think that the 7th sided die could mean death. Truthfully, I didn't know a seventh sided die even existed and I took the "7" metaphorically- bad luck- a toss of the dice against the evens.
Countrymm-Yes, ma'am I think that you've hit the nail right on the head with the yin and yang of Rosa and Hans. Loud vs.gentle, demanding vs. acquiesant, ranting and raving vs. a peaceful and calm demeanor. Each balanced out the other.
Ella- of course this book upset you. You find it difficult to deal with the ugly and detestable. That is a testimony to your kindness and goodness. Please stay with us and offer your comments as we go along.
Salan-Like you, I find this book immeasurably better with each reading. I have never read a book written like this and in part V!- I find myself feeling sorry for our narrator. He makes himself much more familiar.
I-I-I- he says: Do you want to know what I truly look like?
I'll help you out.
Find yourself a mirror while I continue.
Any comments about that diary entry ?
-
Of course I was startled when our narrator revealed that Rudy would die, but death hints at things a lot in the book, usually not this far ahead and this big, but I think it is in keeping with our narrator’s character.
I don’t think death knows who is going to die ahead of time. When he came for Max, on pages 317-8, “there was a resurgence --- an immense struggle against my weight. I withdrew, and with so much work ahead of me, it as nice to be fought off in that dark little room.” It was great to read that death can be fought off (it is one of my favorite tidbits so far), but it also means that he doesn’t have control and, therefore, couldn’t know who was going to die ahead of time.
I can’t imagine Hans not taking in a Jew during the war. We read of his feelings of strong, though not overt, opposition to Hitler’s teachings, so being covert in his actions to rebel against what he believes is wrong, persecuting Jews, makes sense.
On page 328, there is
* * * A Small Suggestion * * *
Or maybe there was a woman on Grande Strasse who now kept her library open for another reason --- but that’s just me being cynical, or hopeful. Or both.
This was another favorite part of this section of reading. The mayor’s wife knew Liesel came into the house and took Whistler, and then left the window open so that she could come again and take another book when she was ready. A small act of compassion during hard times.
All of these examples are signs of good during bad times and make the book very readable.
-
Oh I agree Laura- I am sure there were many more who extended themselves and interceded to lend a hand.
How can one not show charity and coomiseration for the down trodden, I don't know.
I , too, felt so sorry for the mayor's wife who knew how badly Liesel wanted to read her plethora of books on the shelves. She knew that they were sneaking into her house, so hey- why not make the "thievery" a little less complicate- keep the windows unlocked to facillitate entry. Tenderness abounds!
-
Hi Everyone!
I'm back after a long furlough. I just finished Sarah's Key with my local book group, so it was a little difficult to start a new book about the same topic....the Holocaust. This book is written in a very different style. I love the way the author hones in on the important points of the chapter. Sometimes his summaries are humorous, sometimes foreboding. I admire the character of Liesel, and her foster dad, Hans. Hans seems like a wonderful man. He is just the kind of person who should be allowed to be a foster parent. It was great to see how patient and kind he was to the little girl.
Liesel is such a spirited young girl despite all of the hardship she has been put through. Her friendship with Rudy is such an unusual, and unique, one, that it is hard for me to see the prediction of DEATH that Rudy won't be with us at the end of the book. In my opinion, their adventures have kept the story moving.
TRLee
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefcvr3.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
1. Will you share with us some of the images and metaphors that captured your attention and made you pause while reading these two sections?
2. Did Death spoil the story for you by revealing in advance "the three stupid things" that will be Rudy's downfall in two years' time? Why do you think he did that?
3. Can you explain what was meant by "the seventh side of a die?" How do you think Germany's invasion of Russia would affect the people on Himmel Street? Do you detect a change?
4. Can you forgive Liesel for the way she retaliated against the Mayor's wife? How can her anger be explained in the context of the growing tension between the poor and the upper class at this time?
5. What is it about the the second drawing in Max's book that frightens Liesel? (p.280) What is he trying to express?
6. Death searches for beauty in Germany at this time, 1942. Do you think he succeeded? Is that what this book is all about?
7. Who do you see as the "Whistler" in Liesel's stolen book? What is it about this book that makes Liesel shiver when she reads it? Whose book do you think it had belonged to?
8. Do you believe the library window was left open on purpose? Why did Liesel want to steal "The Dream Carrier"? Do you remember what it was about?
9. Max and Liesel dream often in these chapters. Are they premonitions? What happened to Max in Liesel's dream?
10. Death's diary - Auschwitz, Mauthausen - June 23, 1942 Your comments on Zusak's writing in this chapter?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I - IV ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
Jude: I will be gone on vacation next week to visit son and his family .
Though there is a computer we are usually so busy, or so tired after being busy that I know I won't get to the site for a week.
Looking forward to all your posts .
Auf Weidershein.
-
Lee, I just received my copy of Sarah's Key. I am looking forward to reading it.
Have a nice vacation JudeS. We will miss your posts.
-
Sorry I have fallen behind again -- Now a few random answers.
Countrymm,, your German friend is right. Ration cards supposedly covered the dietary need, so many grams of bread, dairy products etc. etc. but the grocery sores shelves were often empty. No coffee, or cocoa, just some dreadful barley Ersatz. Even essentials, like potatoes, turnips and such were scarce.
The Russian campaign of the Nazis began in June if 1941. Of course it affected every single one living in Germany, including the Polish and French prisoners taken in Hitler's expanding war. They, too, had to be fed!
Ella, I know that Margaret MacMillan has refuted the theory that the conditions of the Versailles Treaty in any way contributed to what happened later. The conditions are detailed very clearly in her book Paris 1919, which we have discussed here (though four weeks were hardly enough to cover the subject).
Though I was not born until a few years after WW One I tend to believe that the punishment (MarMillan's word) imposed on Germany did provide a fertile ground for Hitler's ideology. It was no coincidence that he referred to the terms over and over and over again.
JoanP, people were hesitant at first (in 1933), but slowly they began to trust him because he did creatge jobs (building the highway system, the notorious Autobahnen, where everyone has long driven as fast as his/her Mercedes or BMW allows - no matter the consequences.
Here's a point that is iportant in my humble opinion:
According to the Versailles Treaty Germany was allowed one hundred thousand (100,000) men under arms.
After 1933, in total secrecy, Hitler started Germany's re-armament and systematically built up the army, navy and Luftwaffe.
-
Continued. I had paused quickly to post two URLs but was lot successful. Nor were my repeated attempts, even though the links worked for me. Anyone interested can glean all necessary information from the web, e.g. under German Rearmament.
Returning to my earlier post.
Hitler offered hope for a desperate generation of Germans, demoralized, jobless and hungry. He did more: he instilled pride. As I look back on my childhood, from the time my family moved from the idyllic town by the Rhine to the industrial city of Mannheim, the prevailing feeling was despair. As in, where are we heading?
Beginning quite possibly well before 1933, surely before anyone realized it, a propaganda machinery was all put in place. It's not known when the actress Leni Riefenstahl, an excellent photographer, was hired by Hitler to produce a documentary film for the first anniversary since his coming to power for the Nazi Party Convention in 1934. Triumph of the Will, it was called = (Triumpf des Willens). It is it is available in all its frightening "glory" on the web with subtitles. In the wake of that " triumph" of propaganda began the preparations for the Olympiad in Berlin in 1936, designed to be a showcase for the "new" Germany.
Hitler shook hands with the members of the all Aryan (of course) team and fully expected them all to ace. But one Jesse Owens was not in the script, a black man, God help him. Not only was he a magnificent runner, he was gifted with a cheerful, forgiving nature. Hitler was not the only one who snubbed him, but he was ignored i this country, too. I've mentioned this in a previous post and don't wan t repeat it. Besides, it is on the web.
In 1936, our high school class had a personal interest in the coming Olympics : our gym teacher was a member of the Olympic rowing team. We disliked him. He worked us relentlessly on the uneven bars and the other equipment. We really tried, but he had no encouraging words word for any of us girls. The point was that Sports had come to count as heavily in our report cards as Latin, Math, physics and chemistry.
All this insufferable man earnedwas a fourth place in a team event. He quit soon thereafter, unlamented by us. He was succeeded by a female gym teacher. It became much easier for mothers to formulate a request that their daughter be excued once a month.
Back to the connection to the book. We are told the story begins in 1939 when Liesel was 9. That was 3 years after the Olympics. What memory could she have had? We don't even know where she was before she came to the Hubermanns.
As I've said before, Bavaria was and is predominantly Catholic. There's no doubt that the Hubermanns were Catholics. And if they had been found out about harboring a young Jewish man in the cellar, all of them, Liesel included, would have been in mortal danger. All of them.
Ann and Ella, I agree that this book presents a view of the WW II in Europe, but I believe that it is hardly "from the German perspective". As JoanP pointed out a while ago, what we have is a second-hand report by a now 35-year old Australian man, based on the stories he heard from his mother. It is NOT the direct personal experiences of one who was there, lived there at that time. And the number of us is dwindling.
More tomorrow, to Jude's posts aBout Germn authors who wrote about WW II, among them Günter Graß. There are more, for instance Heinrich Böll (19171985), Nobel Prixe winner in 1972.
-
Traudee, it is so good of you to share your memories with us, awful as they are for you to stir up again. You are the judge of how much you can bear. We are grateful for everything you can bring to us. The one question that keeps coming up - at what point were you aware that things were not going well for the German army - and when did you start to consider that Hitler's grand plan might not succeed?
The children in the story were participating in the Youth Groups, their youth leaders confident in their Fuhrer. They were hungry yes, rations were useless if the shelves were bare (as you describe) - but did you note fear - that Germany's enemies might actually bring the war with Russia, the bombing to your homeland? I guess I'm asking, did the realization that Germany might not be successful under Hitler come in June, 1941 - or were you aware things weren't going well before that?
In the book, it was at this time that the German soldiers came to Himmel St. to establish bomb shelters.
It had to have been a nightmare for the people.
Some of you who were not surprised at Hans' immediate decision to hide his friend's Jewish son in his basement. Traudee, in a previous post described how this would have been the ultimate risk to his family - they would all have been hanged or beheaded. Hans doesn't seem to have any hesitation. Do you suppose he doesn't know the risk, the danger in which he is putting his family?
Jude, you will be missed. You notice the details - like the seven sided die. I understand what you're saying about computer time when you're on grandma time. Pack your book - we'll look forward to your return next week.
-
TRlee, welcome back. Yes, Hans is a gentle foster dad, I agree with you. He seems more like a father to Liesel - since the very first days, don't you think? I guess I don't understand how he and Rosa lost communication with their own two children. Liesel and Max seem more like their own natural children, don't they?
Laura, I find myself looking upon Death as one with supernatural powers, including omniscience - the ability to know the future - like God, I guess. I confuse these two because I'm not used to viewing Death as a character - with human traits.
"We all know that we are all going to die but (for good or ill) we're able to suppress the fact and live on." Marcie
I've been thinking about this, Marcie. Do you think there's a difference between knowing that one is going to die someday or to know the exact time? Do you suppose Rudy considers he might die in this war? Liesel? Max? Do you think that what Death is saying here is that of all the children, it is only Rudy is marked for death during the war?
-
Can't find the quote now, but someone remarked on my interest in many-sided dice. Interest in polyhedra is in my genes. I see you can still buy my father's work on Descartes' work on polyhedra from Amazon.com.
http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Polyhedra-solidorum-elementis-Mathematics/dp/0387907602 (http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Polyhedra-solidorum-elementis-Mathematics/dp/0387907602)
Anyway, I grew up in a family where that was a normal sort of thing to think about.
-
Traude, I'm glad you mentioned Leni Riefenstahl. She has an awful fascination for me, at once so horrible and so effective. I've watched "Triumph of the Will", and it's a masterpiece of propaganda. Especially the part "Ein Volk ein Land" (one people, one country) where she has idealized faces of different people--"I'm from Friesland" "I'm from Bavaria", etc, ending up with "ein Volk ein Land", we're all part of glorious Germany. She later tried to claim innocence of Hitler's policies, but the most charitable interpretation (still pretty damning) is that she didn't care squat about anyone's policies as long as she could make films.
I don't think she had a prejudice against blacks, though. She didn't care what color your skin was as long as your body was photogenic. Jesse Owens gets full treatment in "Olympia", and in the 70s she published "The Last of the Nuba", a book of loving photographs of an African tribe.
In her seventies, she took up underwater photography, lying about her age by 20 years in order to get scuba diving certification.
She died in 2003, age 101, unrepentant to the end.
-
JOANP, I definitely don't want to think that Death knows in advance when
everyone will die. I prefer to believe this story is being told after the
event. Perhaps the best explanation of why Rudy's death is foretold is
the one you gave. The author does give me the impression that Death cares.
I was intrigued by the 'six-sided' dice, and I found there is such a
thing. "I Ching dice such as:
Eight-sided dice bearing the eight trigrams
Six-sided dice bearing yin and yang twice each, and old yin and
old yang once each." It seems to me the author is hinting here at the yin-yang balance of
opposing forces in this story. Dungeons and Dragons wasn't invented yet,
so if that was the author's reference it's misplaced.
In this case, I feel he put Rosa and Hans together to demonstrate to his
readers that it might take both softness and caring (Hans) as well as
toughness and hardness (Rosa) to survive a harrowing revolution.
COUNTRYMM, I like that insight and I think you're right.
-
Traude: FYI, I left a message over in the Library discussion for you.
-
Frybabe, thank you. Will post there.
-
Babi, I think we've established that Death is telling us this story of an event that happened in the past. When he let it slip that Rudy died, (from a bombing attack, wasn't it?) - it was because his heart was broken at the thought of it. I'm hoping it this means that Liesel survived at least.
But Max, what hope is there for Max? Do the Hubermann's believe that Max will be able to wait out the war in their basement and then....? Traudee has explained that the penalty for harboring a Jew was death - for the entire family. Do you know of any Jews who survived the war because a neighbor risked all to protect them? Like Max? In Germany? What if Germany had been successful? What would Max's life have been like in post-war Nazi Germany? Or would the war have gone on and on and on...?
Liesel happened to see a drawing in one of Max's notebooks that frightened her - He intends to give this notebook to Liesel someday "when all this nonsense is over." Looking at Max's drawing, what do you think he means to say? How did you understand it? The very thought of Germany winning the war scares me too. I don't think I've given that much thought before...
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/loverllyday.jpg)
ps PatH - this is your papa? F.J.Fedrico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasquale_Joseph_Federico)
-
JOANP: yes, that's him. P J (think Pat and Joan). We didn't know he was on Wikepedia, until Pat found the article.
It's accurate, except he was never the "head" of the Patent Office. He held a high non-political position.
-
PJ...Pat and Joan. Cute :D
"... testimony was later quoted by the United States Supreme Court when the Court held in 1980 that living organisms were proper subject matter for patents." Do you remember what "living organisms" this case was about?
What do you think? Will Max survive long enough in hiding to see the end of the war? Everything in me wants to believe he will, but...
-
PatH, before Leni Riefenstahl produced "Triumph of the Will" for the Nazi Party Convention in 1934, she had done an earlier documentary for the Nazi Party Convention of 1933, titled "Victory of Faith" (Der Sieg des Glaubens). It too is on the web - I just checked, briefly. The first few frames sickened me and I could not go on.
JoanP, you asked whether the German continued to believe the promises of "final victory" = Endsieg. They did - at least until the Russian campaign.
In June of 1941 the German army invaded Soviet Russia and advanced rapidly. The Russians drew back, luring the Germans to move forward. It was the same strategy that was used against Napoleon in 1812 . Both invasions were of historic importance for Europe, both were disasters. The battle of Stalingrad was one of the bloodiest of the war and one of the longest. It was also the beginning of he end.
The balance of power began to shift when the U.S. entered the war in Europe (in June of 1942). Th people at home were starving; the bombing of major cities intensified. And still the people plodded on.
Then came the Allied invasion in Normandy. It inspired a (second) plot to assassinate Hitler. Claus Count von Stauffenberg carried it out on July 21, 1944. Hitler was wounded in the arm and survived. Count Stauffenberg was shot by a firing squad. Tom Cruise played him in a recent movie. (I did not see it.)
-
JoanP, I think that Max meant his drawing to be ironic ( of two people on top of dead bodies saying "isn't it a lovely day" with the Nazi sun shining). The people were not supposed to criticize or think for themselves...just say Heil Hitler... and believe that everything being done was for the good of Germany.
-
Poor Hans Hubermann has become trapped by his own goodness. When he first got Max's appeal, he knew he had to help, as an honorable man. He owed his life to Max's father, and he had made a promise. He agonized about it though, knowing how dangerous it was. Now he's stuck in a situation growing more and more impossible as food gets scarcer and they have more and more narrow escapes. It's kind of the opposite of the slippery slope of evil, where the first minor bad action starts the process and you get in deeper and deeper--a sort of slippery slope of good. He never wavers, though.
Rosa seems to support him completely. She may be foul-mouthed and harsh, but she knows what's right.
I agree with Traude that the chances of actually getting away with something like this are pretty small. The townspeople didn't like the Hubermanns, and were suspicious of anyone they thought might be disloyal. It would only take a tiny hint of a clue for them to be caught.
-
"... testimony was later quoted by the United States Supreme Court when the Court held in 1980 that living organisms were proper subject matter for patents." Do you remember what "living organisms" this case was about?
It was a microorganism. Don't quote me--it's been 30 years--but as I remember, it had been engineered to eat oil spills. Dad was already retired and sick by then, but I went with him to watch when the case was argued. I didn't get to sit with him and the other lawyers, but I had a very good seat--the inventor was just a row away. In spite of having lived here so long, that was the only time I've watched the Supreme Court in session. It was pretty impressive.
-
Death witnesses the "homeless" everywhere but as PatH says Hans trapped by his own goodness keeps Max safe for a while longer.
As the bodies add up, Death becomes more personal to us a HE begins to complain when someone begs to go along with him. "Don't you see I've already got enought on my plate?"
In the Abridged Roll Call for 1942
#1. The desperate Jews- theri spirtits in my lap as we sat on the roof, next to the steaming chimneys.
Does that literally turn your stomach to visualize their desolation and despair while withnessing the smoketacks spewing?
Marcie- so true, Max was showing the flip side of what life could or should be like.
-
I think Max’s drawing represents he and Liesel, enjoying a lovely day together despite the Nazi rule and the loved ones they lost. It represents hope of survival.
Alternatively, I think Max’s drawing could represent a lovely day in the Nazi world --- sharing a partly sunny day with your significant other, a person of superior race like yourself, while the undesirable people have been eliminated.
Being optimistic, I hope that Leisel, Max, and the Hubermanns all survive the war, but I think the author could have it go either way at this point.
-
In the Abridged Roll Call for 1942
#1. The desperate Jews- their spirtits in my lap as we sat on the roof, next to the steaming chimneys.
Does that literally turn your stomach to visualize their desolation and despair while witnessing the smokestacks spewing?
This image is horrible, but when coupled with the other two items in the roll call, I wondered how death could even survive. The emotional toll would be overwhelming.
-
Oh Laura- so true! He (death) says that gives us an ashen taste in our mouths that defined his existence during that year. Ashen indeed!
Yet, he also tells us that there is death; making his way through all of it. On the surface: unflappable, unwavering.
Every time I read that, I have to take pause. It catches my breath.
He just makes it so personal to all of us as it has been to Traudee and thousands of others. He says that war is like a new boss who expects the impossible and to just "get it done." No thanks, just expectations to get it done as he asks for more.
:'(Terrible cruelty!
-
I've been noticing that abandonment and guilt are two of the author's themes. Liesel has been abandoned by her mother. Has anyone else abandoned her?
Hans feels guilty about hiding Max in the basement. Who else in the book experiences guilt...and why?
We know the author uses a lot of foreshadowing, usually via the character Death. Some of you have been bothered by Death revealing facts about the future. Why do you think Zusak uses foreshadowing? Is it to pull the reader into the book?
How about irony? What examples of irony do you see in "The Book Thief"?
-
Countrymm, you focus on the big themes - guilt and abandonment. These two are intricately connected, aren't they? The survivors must live with that guilt always, I'm afraid. PatH mentions Hans, the man who stands out for his valor and integrity, and yet he too is consumed with guilt for putting his family into this precarious position.
I see the foreshadowing you mention in the dreams - Liesel and Max have nightmares almost nightly it seems - It seemed to help when they were able to share their dreams. Liesel dreams that Max will die when he was sick all that time. I don[t think she shared that with him, but she did leave that tear on his cheek. I was sure he was dying, weren't
you? Didn't you get the feeling that he had lost his will to live? And if he had died? Were you wondering what they would do with his corpse? Bur somehow, he survives. How? Was it Liesel who saved him with her presents and stories? Is that what we are to believe happened?
Countrymm asks what the author achieves by revealing what will happen in the future? What effect did this have on the rest of you? (I know some of you just had to give in and read to the end of the book! ;))
-
May I mention one book which deserves mention IMHO. It was not[/b] written from a German perspective, and by an American, one who was there.
The book is Slaughterhouse Five, or The Children's Crusade : A Duty-Dance with Death, , published 1969, a powerful anti-war science fiction novel byKurt Vonnegut, Jr, (Breakfast of Champions, Cat's Cradle.)
The book features an exhausted, fatalistic American soldier, captured by the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge and imprisoned in Dresden, where he lived trough and survived the fire-bombing of what was once known as "the Florence of Germany". It happened between February 13 and 15, 1945. It was Vonnegut's own experience. The book is unforgettable.
Incidentally, the German word for "Intelligence" was" Abwehr = counter espionage.
Jude mentioned the Stasi. Indeed, it existed, but was created after the war. Please let me explain.
In 1945, Germany was divided into four zones occupied, respectively, by the British, the French, the U.S. and Russia - which held the entire East. The capital, Berlin, located in the middle of the Soviet zone, was, in turn, divided into four sectors.
When, sixty years ago, the Soviets blocked off all rail and road supply lines to the city of Berlin, the U.S. established the famous Berlin Airlift (=Luftbrücke) and flew in food for the Berliners. An courageous, unforgettsable act of heroism.
Russia sealed all its borders and established checkpoints at road and rail crossings. (I witnessed only the latter.) Armed soldiers with attack dogs patrolled up and down the platform -- until every passenger trying to enter East Germany had been "inspected" and shown his papers. An East German visa in had to be secured beforehand. No western newspapers or magazines were allowed in, and no West-Mark.
The Soviets printed yheir own money, paper and coins, the "Ostmark", which was negotiable only in East Germany. and had no value anywhere else. They also had their own postal service and rail system, such as it was.
On arrival, visitors had to "sign in" at the police station and indicate where and how long they would be staying. So much per person per diem had to be paid in advance - and I can't remember how we accomplished that - given the fact that we could nott bring in any western money.
Before leaving, we had to "sign out" at the police station. The control on the way out was harsher and took much longer - though only East Geran retirees were allowed out. The atmosphere in the compartment was tense. The door to the corridor had to remain closed. Nobody was allowed to leave their seat.
On my second trip back in the company of my daughter and son, we heard a commotion, a woman crying, dogs barking furiously. We saw nothing.
Only when we heard the sound of the electric engine being reconnected did we relax.
The German government of East Germany ruled at the pleasure of the Russians. The secret police (for the "security of the state" (= Staats-sicherheits-dienst) had many spies, some of them in the Government of West Germany (!). It became known as "Stasi" and was operative until the curtain fell.
Since then, prominent East Geman writers were fond to have spied for the Stasi. There have been other such scandalous revelations that rocked West Germany.
-
The other question from Countrymm - "How about irony? What examples of irony do you see in The Book Thief?"
Hmmm, sounds like an essay question and I fear I'd flunk this question. Marcie interpreted Max's "lovely day" drawing as irony - "sharing the day with a person of superior race like yourself, while the undesirable people have been eliminated."
It wouldn't be the first time I missed the irony in this book. I was trying to imagine a future for Max - post war, as you did, Laura. Max and Liesel standing in the sun after the war, as survivors in Nazi Germany. That's not really a possibility, is it? Max has no future, unless the Hubermann's can survive the war, hiding Max in the basement - until liberation. But there will be no lovely day for them under that nazi flag. So why did he draw it for Liesel?
Laura, I think that Zusak's writing is the only thing that keeps my stomach from churning when he describes the spewing smokestacks. When he writes - "For Death, the sky was the color of Jews" I feel I've been shocked, smacked in the face with the reality of what went on inside... and then as if to soften that blow, we see Death himself, "picking up each soul as delicately as if each were newly born, even kissed a few."
Andy says this writing makes her stop to catch her breath. I think she's speaking for most of us.
But then comes another Zusak zinger...
"... above the grey clouds - the sun was blond and the endless atmosphere was a giant blue eye."
-
Traudee, oh dear, we were posting at the same time. Certainly I did not mean to ignore your thoughtful post. We are learning so much from your accounts. You lived this periiod of history. Your homeland, your family, your lives were shattered. We hold you and your memories dear. Thank you!
-
JoanP, just saw your post. I've worked on mine for so long that I was timed out.
'There were many fires, death was busy on many fronts. We only have one life, one death. Dare we hope Death is neutral?
Just found this
http://www.rense.com/general19/flame.htm
-
TRAUDEE, does one really know the truth of history? Is some of it propaganda and some of it very true - the viewpoint of those who lived through, for example, the bombing of Dresden? Of course, it was terrible. As was the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasake, as is all of it - war itself.
I have had the belief that the bombing of Dresden was to demoralize the German people once and for all. Here is an article about the bombing of the city.
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
There are many more. But most historians discount the number of deaths from the bombing; even the German (who always kept wonderful records as you know) place the figure at around 22,000.
JOANP: I will get back to the book, but because of my interest in history, and WWII particularly (I was in high school during that war), I wanted to commet.
-
ftp://I think Max drew that picture for Liesel just to show what he was hoping for. He liked the picture because it gave him courage and would give her courage when she looked at it in the future.
-
IRONY
Don't you think it's ironic that Max carries a copy of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" on his way to Hans Hubermann, only because it protects him from German soldiers?
There is something ironic going on with Liesel and books. It seems ironic to me that she joyously learns to read by salvaging a copy of "The Grave Digger's Manual". What a solemn, dark book to introduce her to her love of reading. In fact, aren't all 3 of her stolen books pretty grim?
GUILT
Max feels very guilty about leaving his family behind.
Liesel's biological mother feels guilty about leaving Liesel behind, but does it to protect her.
Liesel feels guilty about stealing books but then decides it's a small price to pay for such pleasure. :)
-
Countrymm, I thought the same thing about the Grave Diggers Manual. A young girl learning to read from such a book, a manual, a solemn, serious book, nothing joyous about it! My only conclusion was that she loved having her Papa, Hans, close to her for comfort and, therefore, learned to read the words to keep him there.
The book I remember first learning to read, before I ever went to school, was something about a rabbit stealing peas from a farmer's garden. Funny, that I have never forgotten that.
I think we have mentioned the guilt of Hans hiding Max in the basement, knowing he was putting the whole family in grave danger.
Suffice it to say that such a loving father as Hans is to Liesel, his own children's attitude leaves me stupified.
DEATH is telling all of this story? Or just the part that relates to it/him/her. Being for the most part a nonfiction reader, this storytelling by Death is leaving me confused.
-
Reading the link to the Dresden bombing brought tears to my eyes, Traudee. Of course it was horrible, every incident of the suffering and death of innocents is repulsive. War is repulsive. War is the color of DEATH. I knew that Kurt Vonnegut had written Slaughterhouse Five, but did not realize that he himself was in Dresden at the time. He was one of a group of American prisoners of war to survive the attack in an underground slaughterhouse meat locker used by the Germans as an ad hoc detention facility.
The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki both unspeakable. I've understood the Japanese intended to fight on, regardless of loss. The purpose of those bombings was to bring the war to an end. It worked. It took total devastation, but it worked.
Hiroshima today - 65 years after the bombing! I thought you might be interested
http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/kids/KPSH_E/hiroshima_e/sadako_e/subcontents_e/images_e/17_1.jpg
Rebuilding Dresden has taken longer - I've read it was 85% destroyed - rebuilding didn't really begin until 1990 - because of communist occupation - read about it German study on the death number in Dresden attack. (photos, then and now) (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2010/03/official-german-study-concludes-25000-died-in-allied-bombing-of-dresden/1)
But what of Munich? I've read conflicting reports - one said that Olching, outside of Munich - in Zasuk's story Olching=Molching - was not bombed at all. I question that. But Munich was never devastated by a single attack, but rather repeated bombinbs, hundreds of bombings. THe city was methodically rebuilt, using preWWII photos of the city.
Ella, please continue to read this story with the eye of an historian. We are looking forward to your upcoming discussion of the Troubled Young Men - and learning more about Churchill the man, and perhaps his thinking on WWII tactics.
"DEATH is telling all of this story?" How would the rest of you respond to Ella's question? That's the way it began, but do you see a change of narrators as the story progresses?
Ella - your first story memory sounds like Peter Cottontail.
-
DEATH is telling all of this story? Or just the part that relates to it/him/her. Being for the most part a nonfiction reader, this storytelling by Death is leaving me confused.
I think Death is telling it all except things like "The Standover Man", written by Max.
You should be a Science Fiction fan, Ella ;). Death is a recurring character in Terry Pratchett--a humorous one; Pratchett can skewer some very grim things with his humor. Piers Anthony wrote a book told from Death's point of view too.
Although "Slaughterhouse Five", is a vivid first-hand description of the Dresden fire-bombing, it's also surreal science fiction, told in a disjointed time frame, jumping back and forth from present to past to future, with the narrator knowing it all at once, including his eventual capture by aliens. That sounds pretty goofy, but it's a powerful and moving book.
-
Thanks, PatH - I'm looking at The Book Thief like science fiction, are you? It seem to take on the surreal quality as soon as we learned the narrator was Death, a character with human traits.
Countrymm, I'm trying hard to believe Max drew the picture to make Liesel feel better. That someday she will enjoy a lovely day after all the war and destruction is over. Somehow I can't get past viewing those bodies as piles of dead Jewish corpses sacrificed for the Nazi cause.
Irony, yes - you're right, Every single book is totally inappropriate for a young girl - beginning with the Gravedigger's Manual. Inappropriate, and yet appropriate for the story. The Whistler - clearly Hitler, happily whistling the tune of Deutchland Uber Alles as he murders his victims. I'm wondering what Ilsa Hermann is doing with these books in her library. Her husband, the high-ranking Nazi -
She is clearly inviting Liesel to take these books- by leaving her window open. She KNOWS Liesel is the Book Thief and wants her to have these books.
Grim stories for a young girl, yes - but Liesel is growing up in grim times. I had been wondering why Ilsa chose Liesel, but perhaps Liesel is the only young person who had the nerve, or the interest to come in her door.
-
Science fiction? Maybe that is why I had trouble reading the book, I've never had an interest in science fiction. I can under-stand the author using a clever (IMO) tactic to tell a story, but also I think there is a very grim reality to most of the circumstances in the book; although, of course, the characters are fictitious.
It all could have happened. Definitely the JEws being marched to concentration camps, whether it was in Munich or not doesn't matter. But the rations, the fear, the bombing all was based on fact, on the author's mother's experiences, certainly??????????
So what you are saying, PATH and JOANP, is the fact that the narrator telling the story is science fiction and the reader has to separate the two facets of the book?
-
I wouldn't quite call the book science fiction, but it does use some of the same techniques, and if you're used to sci-fi you're comfortable with that. Yes, everything that's happened so far (except for Death himself) could have really happened or did really happen.
Sci-fi is often used very effectively to comment on grim reality. By taking a different viewpoint, or changing some assumptions, you can skewer our world very nicely.
-
I had no idea that Slaughterhouse Five was about the Dresden bombings or that it was considered SciFi. The title put me off. I thought it was referring to some crime/criminal bunch, convicts or something like the Chicago Seven - violent protesters. Never looked into it.
-
Vonnegut, the prisoner of war, survived the firebombing because he and some of his fellows had been shoved into an underground meat locker connected with a slaughterhouse, the slaughterhouse five of the title. Imagine coming out of there and having to clean up the aftereffects. Most of his writing during a long career (he died in '07, active to the end) is colored by this experience.
It's odd how some atrocities get more or less press than others. Dresden didn't really have any military point. We should be more condemning than we are.
-
I don't believe Max drew the picture to make Liesl feel better--he didn't even mean her to see it until later. I think it's an extremely bitter comment on what Hitler is doing and his wonderful new world. Here is a couple holding hands, saying "isn't it a lovely day", but they're not standing on ground, they're standing on a pile of corpses, and the sun isn't a sun, it's a swastika. It's all a sham of peace, built on lies and horror.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefdominocvr.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
1. Summer of 1942. Why does Liesel regard the days spent with Hans painting blackout blinds as "the best of times"? Do you remember blackout shades and blinds?
2. Why do you think Rudy false-started on purpose to disqualify himself from earning the fourth medal he wanted more than anything?
3. Why does Ilsa Hermann put the Duden dictionalry in her window for Liesel to steal? Was it a gift? Are you familiar with the Duden Dictionary?
4. "The stars set fire to his eyes but not before he saw the shadow of Hitler coming towards the basement on Himmel St." Why did Max risk everything to leave the basement the night of the first raid?
5. What was the real reason for the long forced walk to Dachau? What does this tell us of the mindset of the young German soldiers?
6. Why did Hans to offer bread to the old man who was obviously dying? Was his offer of bread for naught? Who calls him an "idiot" for doing this? Does Liesel blame him for Max's departure?
7. What was the significanace of the dominoes game in the Steiners' living room? Do you know why dominoes are called "bones"?
8. Hans leaves his accordion in Liesel's care Do you believe he will come back to keep his promise to play it again?
9. Why does Rudy tempt fate by offering the Jews bread as they are marched through town to Dachau? Why include Liesel?
10. What is a "word shaker"? What is the moral of the fable or fairytale Max writes about? Does Liesel know where Max is now?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I - IV ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
PatH, I greatly appreciate your comments about Kurt Vonnegut. He addressed moral and social issues in his writings, and they resonated with me. I read everything he published, beginning with Player Piano. I discovered it ten years after he wrote it. I admired him for his candor and the courage of his convictions.
JoanP, good news - I got a copy of the book :) :)And none too soon. But I haven't started yet.
It's been a busy day, and the grands are here overnight.
Quick question: Could you please tell me in where I can find the references to Jews being marched off ?
Thanks in advance.
-
I did not know that Vonnegut was a survivor of the Dresden Horror either. I did not know for a long time that Slaughter House Five had anything to do witH the Dresden Horror. I am learning so much from this discussion. I have had so much family joy lately that I have not been able to keep my mind on the discussion. I have been floating around on my cloud of joy over two of my granddaughters and not concentrating on discussing a book. Joan Grimes
-
I have had so much family joy lately that I have not been able to keep my mind on the discussion. I have been floating around on my cloud of joy over two of my granddaughters and not concentrating on discussing a book. Joan Grimes
That explains the shining cloud I saw zooming across the sky yesterday. ;) ;D
It's good of you to share your joy with us.
-
Just read in the New York Times that Carol Goodman has a new book titled Arcadia Falls. The book sounds nothing like Night Villa. I ordered the free first chapter for my Kindle, although this is not my favorite type of story.
From Publishers Weekly
Goodman (The Night Villa) delivers the goods her fans expect in this atmospheric and fast-moving gothic story: buried secrets, supernatural elements, and a creepy setting. Following the death of her husband, Meg Rosenthal accepts a job teaching at an upstate New York boarding school and moves there with her teenage daughter, Sally. The school, Arcadia Falls, also happens to be central to her thesis, which focuses on the two female coauthors of fairy tales: Vera Beecher, who founded the school, and her friend Lily Eberhardt, who died mysteriously in 1947. While the campus is bucolic, school life proves anything but—Meg thinks she sees ghosts and Arcadia's brightest and most ambitious student, Isabel Cheney, is found dead in a ravine. Feeling Sally drifting further from her each day, Meg finds refuge in Lily's preserved diary and begins to unravel the secrets behind Isabel's death. Goodman doesn't do anything new, but her storytelling is as solid as ever, and the book is reliably entertaining. (Mar.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved
-
Guten Morgen!
A lovely day, here in Arlington - ( not a swastika in sight!) I'm going to agree with PatH about Max's drawing - " an extremely bitter comment on what Hitler is doing and his wonderful new world." I can't imagine that spending all this time in the dark basement is not getting to him, making him extremely bitter. What can he possibly hope for? This collection of random thoughts is like a diary, isn't it?
To balance the reference to the lovely day drawing, we get a glimpse into Death's own diary at the end of Part VI - Death is expressing his need for distraction as he "picks though the broken bodies and dead, sweet hearts from the rubble of Mauthausen..
- Describes going above the gray clouds for distraction and fresh air, only to find that the sun was blond and the endless atmosphere a giant blue eye.
Very similar images, no?
Ella, should the reader separate the two facets of the book? The surreal from the real? My own answer would be a definite no. I would let the surreal character of Death emphasize the very real character of death and destruction. Zusak tells us that his mother lived in Molching/Olching as a child during the war. Many of the stories that she told the author as she was growing up, were real memories - from the eyes of the child. To tell his story, Zusak needed a narrator - a grown up narrator, to describe what was happening in the world outside of Himmel St. while the children played - and gradually grew into the reality of their world. What better voice to tell of war than death? I'd say, let the two facets work together, Ella. They really can't be separated. IMHO
Traudee, tomorrow we will begin to discuss Parts VII and VIII. It is in Part VII that Liesel and Hans witness the first forced march through their town to Dachau. It is good that you now have this book for a number of reasons.
Let's spend today sharing thoughts on Parts V and VI. There was a line that made me catch my breath - it was so real, so familiar:
As Max describes his dream to Liesel, "he paused for a dozen silent sentences" before confessing that he's afraid to fall asleep again. I love Zusak's minimalism. In few words, he conveys so much!
-JoanG, tell about the second granddaughter's happy news!
-Countrymm, I'm sure the folks in the Library would like to hear of Carol Goodman's new book.
-
Science fiction. I'm interested in the appeal of Science fiction. I've tried reading it but couldn't get interested, although I have friends who love it. Why do you enjoy it and how should one approach reading it? Maybe I'll give it a try.
I'm thinking that Liesel will have "identity issues" after the war. Here she is a young teen. I'm assuming both her biological parents are dead. She has come to love her foster parents, but what will happen to them? Will she have any loved ones if she survives the war? If not, who will she be? How will she start a new life? Where will she get strength and suppport?
I'm really enjoying our discussion. Happy Sunday, everyone.
-
Well, I've been away for yesterday but have just finished reading your comments.
Sci-fi is often used very effectively to comment on grim reality. By taking a different viewpoint, or changing some assumptions, you can skewer our world very nicely.
PatH- I do understand what that is saying but I can not wrap my head around this being such a genre. This is real- atrocious and genuine! ??? More non-fiction & historical, than sci-fi, to me.
Countrymm- It is difficult to imagine Liesel making it out alive much less how she will learn to endure these horrors of war. Adolescence is difficult enough, on its best of days, but what trauma must remail with these kids that actually lived these times. I sure Traude could testify to this as she once again forces herself to relive the abomination of the Nazi rule.
-
JoanP you resquested -JoanG, tell about the second granddaughter's happy news!
Well you don't have to twist my arm to get me to do that.
My Granddaughter, Sophia, who had a birthday on St Patrick's day, has been home schooled all of her life. She has to attend a school to be able to get a high school diploma. She is an artist. She draws or paints stories and then animates them. She has been accepted into the prestigous Alabama School of Fine Arts. I am so proud of her that I could pop.
Thanks for your comment PatH.
floating on my cloud. Joan Grimes
-
JoanP-
Describes going above the gray clouds for distraction and fresh air, only to find that the sun was blond and the endless atmosphere a giant blue eye
.
You know how much I love the author's usage of colors and this is a perfect example. The blue represents peace, tranquility, and order.
Blue is a natural color- universal, as it emanates a calming effect. It is above and beyond the horrors of what is happening below those gray clouds- the color of ash.
The Dream Carrier stolen from the shelf was red, with black writing on the spine. This was significant to me - feeling the reddness of aggression, war and danger.
Black-the signature in shape of a swastika- evil!
-
Joan, that's great news! Oh to have not one but two on their chosen paths! It doesn't always work like that! Your family is blessed! Keep floating...
Andy, what to you think of Zusak's description of the sun as "blond"...not yellow, but BLOND and then the atmosphere as a giant blue EYE. Blond and blue eyed - floating above the gray clouds of Mauthausen...
-
Joan- I could be all wet on this one but -
Blond hair is common in many European peoples, but rare among peoples of non-European origin. If he said yellow hair it would have the connotation that it were "dyed" blonde- unnatural. Lest we rmember Hitler was lloking for true Aryans.
The meaning of the blue I described above.
-
Countrymm said: We know the author uses a lot of foreshadowing, usually via the character Death. Some of you have been bothered by Death revealing facts about the future. Why do you think Zusak uses foreshadowing? Is it to pull the reader into the book?
Death, personified, is telling the readers the story. As anyone does when telling a story, Death jumps ahead a bit and then goes back and explains. I think this keeps the book moving along, with the reader enticed by little tidbits. I also think it makes our narrator seem more human. Humans couldn’t possibly tell a story this long, all in order, in just the right way. Death has fits and starts and uses some unusual things not normally found in novels, like lists and drawings, but uses them effectively conveying his personality and humanity.
-
Andy, as I said before, Hitler was the personification of evil. He tarnished everything he touched.
He appropriated and distorted many things (customs, istitutions etc.) to serve his own purposes, among them the swastika.
The word swastika comes from the Sanskrit and identifies an equilateral cross with arms bent at right angles, either right- or left-facing. Archeological evidence shows that swastika-shaped ornaments were used in the Neolithic period. The emblem is still widely used in Indian religions: Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.
The swastika was commonly used over much of the world without stigma, until it became stigmatized in the Western world due to its iconic usage in Nazi Germany. It is outlawed in Germany.
JoanG, congratulations on the wonderful news about your granddaughter Sophie, the artist. My apologies for not congratulating you earlier when another granddaughter was accepted at medical school. Thank you for sharing. And yes, we are indeed entitled to bask in the warm glow of reflection when our children and grandchildren do us proud.
-
Death has just taken the souls of a group of French Jews. He feels desolate, and looking up, sees a grey, rainy sky. He feels that above this is a blond sun and a giant blue eye. This isn't comforting it's sinister--a huge Aryan face looking down at the slaughter.
-
Allow me to mention a book that is very much in context:
The Sisters: The Saga of the Mitford Family by noted biographer Mary S. Lovell. Excellent for its background information.
We discussed it here in 2003.
Two of the six Mitford sisters were in Hitler's inner circle:
Diana, whose second husband was Sir Oswald Mosley, the leader of the British Fascist Union,
and Unity, who was infatuated with Hitler to the point of obsession.
Another sister, Jessica, was a Communist. She moved to the U.S. and became a writer. One of her books was The American Way of Death.
-
Traude- how sad that the word swastika which used to mean life and good luck became transferred by Hitler to mean death and hate.
In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic."
-
What a struggle Max must be having keeping his humanity. He's only 24, and before he got here he spent several years in a basement, with little food and less company. Now he's in another basement, excreting into a bucket, cold, underfed, and sometimes in the dark. His main human contact is Liesl, uniquely well-fitted to be sympathetic. She's probably what keeps him sane, but it's no wonder he has waking dreams of fighting the Fuehrer.
Countrymm, I haven't forgotten your question about sci-fi. I'll answer soon.
-
MARCIE, I like your explanation of Max's drawing. I couldn't really fit
"Isn't it a lovely day" into any explanation, but yours makes sense.
COUNTRYMM, I would think MAX would also feel guilty, knowing the danger
he brings to this family. I would think that he would want to leave once
he was strong enough. What a terrible burden it would be to know you are
personally responsible for the death of people who befriended you.
PATH, there are some characters we want so much to survive. I think the
author's 'preview' of their deaths lessens the shock and loss. We have
time to accustom ourselves to the idea. I know if Rudy's death had
occurred suddenly, without warning, I would have found it most distressing.
JOANP, I think your observation about Zusak's writing is so true. His
sympathetic skill is all that makes what happens bearable.
Oh, TRAUDE, I wish I had not read that link. I knew a beautiful and
historical city had been lost with Dresden, but I had no idea of the rest
of it. I actually feel sick.
-
Guten Morgen, Alles!
Grey skies here over the nation's captital this morning! (I'm sure if we flew above the clouds we'd see the blond sun and big blue-eyed sky.)
I too find it difficult to imagine how Max spends his days without going mad - consumed with a double dose of guilt - for having abandonned his family and for putting Liesel and her family in such danger because they are hiding him. Of course he's bitter at those who have caused him to make these choices.
Today things get really serious as the Gestapo begins to focus on Himmel St. in Parts Seven and Eight.
Laura, I like your concept of Death as a character in this novel. Hopefully this "character" will not accompany the Gestapo to Himmel St..
We're told at the onset that the town is preparing for the inevitable in the summer of '42. That it is not a question of "if" but "when." Does anyone remember when Death made the observation that Rudy Steiner's life was going to die in two years' time? What year was that?
Countrymm, if Liesel does survive, how does she leave behind these memories. (I'm wondering if Liesel isn't based on Zusak's own mother's experience in this town during the war.)
Liesel regards this period and the time she spends with Hans as "the best of times." Can we focus on this period today? Do you think she fully understands the danger?
Babi - I just read your post - I had the same reaction. I too felt sick reading of the Dresden bombing. Let's hope that Death does not find such destruction on Himmel St.
-
We never had blackout blinds in America that I remember, but we read about them in England when the bombing started. In those early years we knew so much about what was happening to people in the Allied countries, but nothing at all about what was happening to the German people; probably we thought them all guilty or tarnished by Hitler. They were all evil and had caused the war.
I remember reading about Rudy false-starting in that last race but I can't remember why he did that. Did Liesel ask him and did he answer?
No, JOAN, I don't think Liesel understood the whole danger. She was so worried about Max when he was sick - is that in this chapter? I don't have the book.
The Duden Dictionary - here it is - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duden
I understand why Liesel finds these days the "best of times" but I am afraid to comment as I have finished the book.
-
Ella, perhaps it was where you were living? Not in a bombing target near a major city? I grew up in New Jersey, Bruce, my husband in New York. Both of us remember black out shades...he just told me his mother was a warden.
I was four or five at this time. I really don't remember the drills where we lived - by a lake in Northern New Jersey. BUT I do remember being at my grandmother's house in Newark. Now, don't laugh, Newark has a bad reputation, but it was once the "queen city" of New Jersey and quite a nice place to live.
We were all gathered in the dark in her living room during a drill - the sirens had gone off - and everyone was supposed to pull the shades and turn out all the lights .. There was a rap at the living room window near by the front steps. It was the warden, who had spotted the glow of the radio tube through the edge of the shade. He made us turn off the radio. It was explained to me that the planes overhead might spot the light and drop a bomb on us. Funny how I had forgotten this until reading Book Thief.
Thank you for the information on the Duden Dictionary - wouldn't you love to have one - a dictionary and thesaurus combined. Why did Ilsa Hermann want Liesel to have this particular book?
-
Reply to PATH
I read what you said about "DEATH" giving us a warning about Rudy's death. You said it lessened the shock, but for me it is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. Now as each chapter begins.....I think to myself.....is this when it will happen? I really love the character of Rudy. I think he is so strong, creative, and comical. I don't want to lose him.
Lee
-
Lee- I know what you mean about Rudy. He is very comical and you can see these kids growing up right before your eyes, can't you? It makes me pause to think what kind of life they would have ultimately found together- had Rudy lived. He loved her dearly and she loved him. They may have been young but their love and enjoyment of one another was genuine.
What joy Liesel shared with her kind step-father as she accompanied him on his painting jobs, enjoying his many stories and even champagne. Those are days that are never forgotten and remain within the heart of a woman forever.
-
mark
-
Ella, thank you for posting the link to the DUDEN.
The Duden is THE one seminal, indispensable dictionary and reference of the German language, and in German (only). My nine-volume edition was published in Mannheim in 1967.
As you know, I had read only excerpts on line, and none mentioned the starred, capsule-like, almost incantatory linguistic excursions interspersed in the text. The author seems to have taken a German word here and there and given it his alternate interpretations. What exactly was the reason?
Nor were the illustrations referred to in the excerpts.
Has any one wondered who made those drawings in the book?
Since there is no attribution, can we assume they are from the author's hand? That would somehow not surprise me, for the drawings seem to match the intensity of the primary-color metaphors.
JoanP, the page numbers are smudgy in the paperback coopy before me, and unevenly bolded. On what looks like 389 I stopped reading.
With respect, I cannot imagine that a march of Jews "and other criminals" was possible, given the stifling cloak of secrecy laid over this sinister, infamous project. It is unfathomable, in my opinion, that it would have been carried out in the daytime in plain view of onlookers witnessing a parade.
I can see it as allegorical, but I fear millions of readers will believe it was fact.
-
The illustrations in THE BOOK THIEF were drawn by Trudy White. See http://www.trudywhite.com/about.html
-
Thanks for sharing the information about the illustrator for the book, Marcie. I read in an interview somewhere that the author thought at the outset that he was going to do the drawings (I'm not so sure he didn't do some of the smaller ones,) but that his ace was going to be friend Trudy White...who he finally did call upon to illustrate his book. They do work for me in the context. I can see Max drawing them in the basement...
Traudee just received her book and is puzzling over the "grunge font" used for page numbers. I'd be really happy if someone found an explanation for this. They are driving me crazy when I try to note something on a certain page and can't really figure them out unless I can make out a number on previous or later pages and count. Do you think they are supposed to be done with a paintbrush? Or perhaps a bad typewriter ribbon?
I'm hoping that we'll find out the reason for the grunge before we come to the end of the book.
I'd love to have a Duden dictionary ...but don't know where I'd keep nine volumes! I love the idea of a combined dictionary/thesaurus like the volume Liesel "stole". From the link Ella provided, the Duden was first printed in 1870 1880. Ilsa Hermann had a copy in her library and left it in the window for Liesel...
We aren't told why she decided that Liesel should have it. Is it to help with her reading, do you think? Or maybe writing?
I was interested in the words selected from the Duden and their synonyms... they seem to signal the contents of the chapter that is to follow:
Zufriedenbeit - Happiness - describing the joy, and gladness Liesel felt when accompanying Hans as he painted the blinds.
Angst - Fear, the awareness of the danger felt in the bomb shelter.
Maybe some of you don't remember the blackout shades here in the US - is because you didn't live on one of the coasts. It is my one clear memory of fear during the war, Ella. I found this site that might explain the reason -
The civilian defense against air attacks began with pilots who flew along the coastlines and plane spotters who manned towers to watch for approaching enemy planes. There were also blackout drills that forced people to practice their response to the air-raid alarm signalThere were also blackout drills that forced people to practice their response to the air-raid alarm signal—a series of intermittent siren blasts. Air-raid wardens supervised the blackout drills, cruising up and down neighborhood streets to make sure no light escaped the houses. By early 1943, there were about 6 million volunteers in public protection roles such as air-raid warden.
Blackout drills were planned in advance and advertised. Street lights were turned off at the scheduled time. Anyone outside was to take cover inside. Those in their homes were instructed to pull down the blinds on their windows and keep the light inside to a minimum. People in cars were to pull over and find shelter in the nearest building. The idea was that enemy planes couldn't target what they couldn't see, and that any light visible from above could attract bombs and gunfire. Busy with the Blitz-Proofing (http://www.americainwwii.com/stories/busywiththeblitzproofing.html)
-
The march through Molching to Dachau was a clear memory of the author's mother, who told this story many times as Markus was growing up. Of course, she was a child and her memory was colored by...by time. But whatever it was she saw, it made a lasting impression on her. The truck carrying the prisoners was said to have broken down, which explained why they were proceding on foot. But there were two trucks. No one believed that was the reason for the forced walk.
In her memory, someone offered a piece of bread to one of those walkers. What happened after that may or may not be the author's fiction. It did take on an allegorical quality, didn't it, Traudee? I think this chapter, "A Long Walk to Dachau" needs to be reread - for the writing and for the fact that it marks a real turning point in the story.
-
That must have been frightening, JOAN, to a five year old child. Yes, I think I do remember hearing or reading of the drills on both coasts for bombs and also there was fear of submarines - actually wasn't there one German submarine captured on the Atlantic coast, Joan?
That was a long time ago to search one's memory. Living in the midwest we had nothing like that to fear. I wrote to a service man in WWII and, of course, in 1950 I married a veteran of that war.
Liesel and Max will be the two characsters that remain in my memory of this book; I hope I forget the character DEATH and the unhappiness that comes from its words. It does no good to dwell on death, it is familiar to all who live.
-
Oh I remember the blackout curtains that we had on our windows. My dad was an air raid warden. We did not live on the coast. We lived in the same area where I live now. We are very much inland. I am going to post this before it goes away. More of the posts that I try to post are lost than are posted. Joan Grimes
-
JoanP,
According to the link Ella provided, the Duden was first published in 1880. It's now in its 24h edition.
My father had a copy, just one volume then, and I took it with me when we came to this country.
After my sister's unexpected death it fell to me to sort out her affairs, and I had the 9 volume shipped here.
It's entirely in German and useful really only for those who speak, read and write German.
Thank you, Marcie, for the name of the artist who provided the illustrations.
-
Okay, now you have me interested in trying to find the font used in the book again, JoanP. On very few occasions a publisher will list the type font used.. Unfortunately, not so with our book. There are a number of fonts that closely resemble the font in our book. Unfortunately, every tiny change in a font gets to be called by a new name so there are tons of fonts to look through and not a lot of time. I thought of Grunge first because those were an early dirty looking font family I know. There are many more dirty looking font families now. I could not locate, so far, any comments from Random House about their font selection process. It could have taken months to find and settle on which fonts to use.
In the meantime, here is RH's webpage for Zusak and an interesting video about TBT. Also, there are links to other interviews, one of which is at least an hour. (This website may have been posted before.)
http://www.randomhouse.com/features/markuszusak/
-
This is from an interview with Markus Zusak on the illustrator, Trudy White -
How did Max’s illustrations come about? Did you work them up first, or simply hand the text over to your illustrator Trudy White?
There was never any intention for me to do the final pictures. I did some of the early drafts, but they were abominable. I knew that I had Trudy up my sleeve, but I wanted to show her and give my publishers an idea of what I wanted. It was Trudy’s idea completely to draw Max as a bird, which was perfect, as I had described him as having feathers of hair and he was really a captive bird in a basement of Nazi Germany.
Frybabe, I'm hoping that we will learn more about the font used on the page numbers before we finish the book. Have you finished? In the meantime, keep hunting - I admire your curiosity. That's a great link to the Interview with Zusak on the forced walk to Dachau. I hope everyone gets a chance to listen to it and then rereads the the Long Walk to Dachau chapter in the book.
Traudee, I wonder why no one has thought of publishing a Duden dictionary in English. Do you suppose they have, only under a different name? I fixed the date it first came out from 1870 to 1880. A typo on my part. Thanks.
-
Joan P,
The Duden was not designed as a foreign language dictionary - at least not originally. It was and still is the essential tool for mastering the complex German language. Orthography, syntax, and punctuation are still "serious business"; errors were marked and points deducted. I have proof : an old notebook with German dictations and the grades.
There are, however, several publishers of foreign dictionaries, most prominent the internationally knownLangenscheidt.
That's what we used in school, and I hauled all of them with me when we came in the mid-fifties. But the Russian-German, German-Russian dictionary we used at Heidelberg U was provided by the professor of Russian whose textbook we also used.
Langenscheidt Publishers is a private-held firm, still in the same family, founded in 1856, thus ante-dating Duden by 36 years.
-
I do not know what the Duden dictionary is, but felt at the time Liesel was being encouraged to write and write properly. Such a moving story. I've missed most of the discussion, and have not read through all of the remarks. But wanted to say how glad I am to have read this book, it was so moving. Took me a while to realize that Death was the narrator. Interesting when he explained that he does not look the way we seem to think he looks. No sythe. He has a sense of humor, and they certainly needed it at the time this book took place.
-
I think the summer of 1942, painting blackout blinds, was the best of times because it represented some of the last of the “normal” days, before the war entered Hans and Leisel’s town via the prisoner march and before Hans left.
Rudy false started because he didn’t want to stand out from the crowd as being superior in anything. I didn’t understand it at the time, but later we find out that exceptional youth are being recruited for special training, and I assume he did not want to be among them.
I think Ilsa gave the dictionary to Leisel for two reasons: as a sign of forgiveness and because she wanted to Leisel to be educated and enjoy and learn from books. Leisel could use the dictionary to continue her self education.
-
What I liked about the Duden - it is a combination dictionary and thesaurus in one. The entries we see and the synonyms prepare us for the coming chapter. That's another outstanding feature about the book - while it tells of the most wrenching occurrences, they are done "gently" - and quote often with a sense of humor as you pointed out...BrianBrent. Shall we call you that, or is there another name you would like to use - shorter? ;)
Welcome to the discussion - there is still much more to talk about as we have just begun Part VII now. I'm going back to The Long Walk to Dachau for examples of Zusak's "gentle" approach to this episode.
-
Gumtree:
Just learned about the flooding and hope you are all right.
T.
-
I really love the character of Rudy. I think he is so strong, creative,
and comical. I don't want to lose him.
(LEE)
LEE, you reminded me of the lead male character in "I Never Saw Another
Butterfly". My son had that role in a high school presentation. It was so
poignant I forgot I was watching my son and identified with the character.
It was a teen-age boy, falling in love for the first time, and then being
being sent to die in the gas chambers. I felt that loss so keenly.
TRAUDE, isn't it a fact that Jews and other 'undesirables' were dragged
out of their homes and taken to railway points to be shipped elsewhere.
Even if this always happened at night, it would still have been heard
and noticed by neighbors. I'm sure many lies were told in explanation,
but surely total secrecy would have been impossible.
Do you suppose the 'grunge' numbering was supposed to reflect the
cheap paper available at the time? Possibly good paper would be
in very short supply. Cheap paper would tend to smear the ink.
LAURA, that was my impression also. Rudy was smart enough to avoid
attacting the attention of the recruiters. "Hitler Youth" was bad enough.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefdominocvr.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief); Epilogue
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief); EPILOGUE
1. Do you think the story would have been different if Liesel didn't keep having nightmares about her brother? Did you understand why she stopped dreaming about him after she returned the cookie plate to Ilsa Hermann?
2. What brought Ilsa Hermann down to 33 Himmel St? Why did she give the lined notebook to Liesel? What was her warning to Liesel?
3. Liesel wrote a book that was divided into 10 parts, each telling of how books and stories affected her life. Liesel is the author of this book then?
4. How does Liesel answer Rudy when he asks her how it feels to steal a book? Is her answer the reason he left the teddy bear with the dying pilot? (Why had he packed that teddy bear in his toolbox?)
5. Did you notice Death's explanation why he has been offering us a glimpse of the end before it actually happens?
6. Was Liesel ready to die when she joined Max in the road? How did Rudy save her? After she told him about Max, was it significant that he didn't kiss her then?
7. Why did Death carry Rudy's soul "with a salty eye and a heavy heart"? Rudy got to him. Can these be Liesel's thoughts? Why did she later tell Rudy's father that she had kissed him?
8. Now how did Liesel get to Sydney? What happened to Max? Dare we imagine they went together? Can you find a reason to support this?
9.. Death meets Liesel on her last day and wants to tell her about the beauty and the brutality of war. Do you think she knows this already? Did you see beauty in this story?
10. Everything considered, how would you rate this book on a scale of 1 * - 5 ***** What will you remember about this book?. Would you recommend it to a friend? To a teenager?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I - VIII ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
Well, I just got brave and sent an email to Random House requesting information about how they choose fonts for a book, most especially this one. Also asked if they could divulge the names of the fonts they chose for TBT. And I asked if the author has any input in the process. Who knows, I might actually get an answer. Cross your fingers.
-
Babi,
It IS a fact that people disappeared and were never seen again. The butcher and his bother at the end of our block was gone one day. We never knew when exactly it happened or how, but definitely in silence.
Much later it was learned that the they were taken to railway stations and transported off in freight trains.
It is worth mentioning that the project was under the exclusive control of the SS. To have civilians witness a march in broad daylight would have given away th game - and that was to be avoided at all cost.
One of the top men was Reinhard Heydrich (q.v.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich
-
Frybabe...how good of you to take the time to write to Random House about the page numbers in this book. It would be wonderful if they responded. Babi has suggested that the cheap paper might have caused the ink to run - but did they have ink? Paint, maybe...
Why would the page numbers be written in this "grunge" font? Thanks for writing RH! I would be happy if this mystery is cleared up before we finish here.
Traudee, I can see where such a parade might be held in secret as people were taken to railway stations and transported off in freight trains. But these people seem to be on the last stretch of their journey, taken off the trains - and now on trucks a few miles from Dachau.
Zusah writes:
"Perhaps death camps were kept secret, but at times people were shown the glory of a labor camp like Dachau."
Some of the soldiers given this assignment were only boys, we're told. They had the Furhrer in their eyes.
Liesel would write in her book - "there were the poorest souls alive." (Do you think she put page numbers in this book she is writing?)
"Once in a while they would meet her eyes with their defeat. She could only hope they could reach the depth of sorrow in her face to recognize it was true, not fleeting."
The next scene with Hans handing bread to the old man, with "eyes the color of agony" - is almost word for word what Zusak relates from the story his mother told him as he was growing up. You can read it in this interview Frybabe brought to us -
http://www.randomhouse.com/features/markuszusak/ (http://www.randomhouse.com/features/markuszusak/)
Do you suppose Liesel is Markus Zusak's mother?
Another thing that puzzled me - we're told that there were two more such parades of Jews through Molching to Dachau. Rudy is acting quite wreckless, isn't he? He passes out 6 pieces of bread, and then has to run like the wind to get away from the guards. But why did he include Liesel in this? Is he confident that she too can outrun the guards? I really didn't understand what Rudy was trying to do.
Laura wrote yesterday that false-started because he didn’t want to stand out from the crowd - but what about this incident?
-
Joan P asked: Do you suppose Liesel is Markus Zusak's mother?
I assume that Leisel is the author’s mother. I finished the book yesterday, so now I will see what he says in interviews.
Joan P asked: Another thing that puzzled me - we're told that there were two more such parades of Jews through Molching to Dachau. Rudy is acting quite wreckless, isn't he? He passes out 6 pieces of bread, and then has to run like the wind to get away from the guards. But why did he include Liesel in this? Is he confident that she too can outrun the guards? I really didn't understand what Rudy was trying to do.
I think Rudy wanted to include Leisel because he was trying to show her how he felt about the Jews, that he felt strongly about his convictions, and that he wasn’t afraid to let them be known. Ultimately, Rudy was copying Hans, Leisel’s Papa, whom Leisel admired very much. Rudy wanted Leisel to admire him (Rudy) too, see he was fit to be her boyfriend, and that he was someone that her Papa would approve of.
-
Laura -I think that Rudy wanted Liesel to be complicit in this as he was in her stealing from the Mayor's library.
I loved this as Liesel compiled a list of who was most afraid.
"Frau Holtzapfel's eyes were trapped open.
Rolf Schultz.. spoke silently at the air around him, castigating it. His hands were cemented in his pockets."
"What was most prominent in the cellar was a kind of nonmovement.---stillness was shackled to their faces."Wow, that is one very profound page of imagry. What a great chapter as the group melded together. Death says he was the suggestion that night, "I was the advice, my imagined feet walking into the kitchen.." There is not a page in this story that doesn't make you cringe at something or someone. Many times it is just the fear that creeps out and the sadness that creeps in.
Babi-
Do you suppose the 'grunge' numbering was supposed to reflect the
cheap paper available at the time? Possibly good paper would be
in very short supply. Cheap paper would tend to smear the ink.
I think that the reason the numbered pages are so hard to identify is because of the thousands of tears that have washed over them.
I hope that Frybaby gets an answer for us.
-
So much sadness! Hans was literally beaten by the Nazi for giving a piece of bread to one starving old man. I'd be the first one to get the he** beaten out of me as well and I commend anyone for their acts of kindness. I would not care what they called me or did to me. How can people stand around and watch these atrocitites? I know that they are afraid but .- where is their compassion, their sense of honor and self? This part of the book really bothered me- Nazis calling people "Jew lovers" and filling them with fear and dread.
-
It must have been terrifying to have people you know, close neighbors,
suddenly disappear, and not dare say anything, TRAUDE. I find myself
grateful that you managed to survive, physically and emotionally.
ALF, doesn't war always open doors of opportunity for the haters, the
sociopaths, all the people that society would have shunned or locked away
in times of peace? They creep out of their shells to become the torturers
and murderers.
-
Can anyone explain to me what the importance of this "domino" theory is in this book?
Rudy sets the game up in the kitchen for his siblings and "together they watch everything that was so carefully planned collapse, and they would all smile at the beauty of destruction."
They watched the dominoes fall until the tower in the middle was brought to its knees, resembling "dead bodies", a collection of bones strewn.
Are these horrors symbolic of the domino tiles, also known as bones?
The word "domino" appears to have derived from the traditional appearance of the tiles - black dots on a white background - which is reminiscent of a "domino" (a kind of hood) worn by Christian priests. How about the hood of the narrator, the grim reaper?
The collective pieces making up the set is called a PACK and was originally made from ivory or animal bone.
If I look at it in that light, this "game" takes on a whole different meaning, doesn't it?
-
AMEN Babi-
ALF, doesn't war always open doors of opportunity for the haters, the
sociopaths, all the people that society would have shunned or locked away
in times of peace? They creep out of their shells to become the torturers
and murderers.
You are so right on- many of these deranged people come out of the woodwork during war.
I love the way that you put it- an opportunity for haters to sell themselves is presented and the lunatic thrives.
Thank God for the benevolence of others to weigh down balance out the other end of that teeter-totter.
-
PBS will air a new version of Anne Frank's Diary. Apparently the recently released edition contains sections of the diary once withheld by her father to maintain her privacy. And there are also other diary pages located in 1989 that are included in the new edition and will be included in the PBS presentation on April 11.. We'll be discussing this book/film in the PBS discussion led by Marcie - http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=63.0
I think that those of us reading Book Thief will find much of interest in Anne Frank. She's about the same age as Liesel Meminger - 13 in 1940. She was born in Frankfort, then moved with her family to Holland in 1933. Because she was Jewish - she and her family were victims of Hitler's anti-Jewish laws.
In 1942 the SS sent for her 16 year old sister to put her in a special school. To keep them from taking her, the family went into hiding in a warehouse apartment where they lived their lives for two years. Anne spent much of her time writing down her feelings in her diary during this time. Does any of this sound familiar?
-
Back in Rudy's living room, the Steiner family resists the Gestapo who want to put Rudy in a special school. Rudy and his siblings sit on the floor playing dominoes. These German children go about playing as if they are... children. They play soccer out in the street - and games inside. Yet, they are learning that "freedom" is not what it once was. Was Barbara Steiner free to say "no" to the Gestapo?
The dominoes Andy talks about - were important enough for the publishers to put them on the cover of the paperback. Have you played dominoes? I notice in the Library here that some are talking about a game called "Mexican Train." I'm curious to learn...though they are saying it is addictive.
I found it interesting to know that the central pile of dominoes is referred to as "the graveyard" - and as Andy says, the dominoes are referred to as "bones." I wish the dominoes on the cover were white ivory like this - they look more like bones. (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qTMP8pOwL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
The dominoes, falling like dead bodies in the living room, as the Steiners refuse in low voices in the kitchen. Is this a way of telling us that the Steiner's refusal to heed the Gestapo's request - will land someone in the "graveyard"?
Hans' daring gesture was defiance to the German soldiers' command too. I expected he'd hear from them, but not in the way that he did. Nor was I expecting Hans to send Max away. Do you think Max can possibly survive? Do you think that Hans, or anyone will survive Stalingrad? Does anyone who goes away ever come back/ He promises Liesel he'll return to play the accordion again. He IS known as a promise keeper. I think I'll put my money on Hans' return.
Another question, will stoic Rosa survive this? ("Rosa had a small rip beneath her right eye, and within the minute, her cardboard face was broken.")
The dominoes are falling now - the question is, will they ALL fall down?
-
Laura, I'm still not sure why Rudy invited Liesel to hand out bread. To show her how brave he was? That he was just as brave as her papa? But why include her? What would happen if they were caught?
Did he want her to watch him - or did he want them to do this together? To take a stand. Together.
-
Joan P said: I'm still not sure why Rudy invited Liesel to hand out bread. To show her how brave he was? That he was just as brave as her papa? But why include her? What would happen if they were caught?
Did he want her to watch him - or did he want them to do this together? To take a stand. Together.
ALF said: I think that Rudy wanted Liesel to be complicit in this as he was in her stealing from the Mayor's library.
I think if you couple my thoughts with ALF’s thoughts, it makes sense. Rudy not only wanted to prove himself, but wanted Liesel (just realized I have been spelling her name wrong!) to take part also. In a way, giving bread to the prisoners was the opposite of stealing. They had given up stealing, except for the books, which almost wasn’t stealing anymore since the mayor’s wife aided the process, so maybe this provided the same thrill, but in a positive way.
As for the dominoes, the scene has so many meanings, all of which I think you both have touched on, and which are valid.
“Together, they would watch everything that was so carefully planned collapse, and they would all smile at the beauty of destruction.”
“…they’d watch the dominoes fall in the candlelight. It somehow made the event grander, a greater spectacle.”
These passages made me think of the night bombings that lit up the sky and destroyed the towns --- both buildings and people.
The dominoes scene took place at the same time as the officials were talking with Rudy’s parents about having him join the special group of students, which may have some significance, but I haven’t determined what that is.
-
Joan P asked if Anne Frank's writing down her thoughts sounded familiar.
Yes, so similar to what both Max and Liesel did to process their thoughts while waiting, waiting for the outcome of this terrorizing time.
Really, what else would someone in Anne's position be able to do to pass the time of day? She had to keep deadly silent. How could she make sense of her thoughts and feelings unless she wrote them down and kept them close to her?
-
Just a quick thought regarding the dominoes falling. Don't you remember as a kid remembering how exciting it was if you built something grand and then it completely undid itself? I remember being in a group of children and everyone would cry out when it all fell down. A similar experience was playing pick up sticks and hoping to lift off one more stick, but suddenly a slight movement made everything collapse and everyone would respond with laughter.
Could Rudy have risked giving bread to prisoners so that the German soldiers would see him as "too risky" to choose for their special program?
-
Hate to digress from your talk about the book but feel that I must say something about the Mexican Train Dominoes...It is a very addictive game. It is probably the most popular game with Senior Citizens today. I try to play it once a week with friends at our Senior center because it helps with my concentration and particularly helps me to match colors which has become so important to me with my eye problem.
Here is a link to where you can play Mexican Train online
http://www.ussgames.com/playgame-406-Mexican-Train-Dominoes.html
Joan Grimes
-
Was it BABI who said Such Sadness! I agree, the whole book was one of sadness to me.
Death is one thing, Heaven (and representation of it) and the Devil (scythe, horns) another, don't you think?
I cannot think there is anything "gentle" about death. It is absence.
-
You are not kidding, JoanG! Mexican Train is really addictive! I'm having a tough time with it, but the last time, I didn't do as badly as the first time. Where do you play?
One thin I noticed - the pool of unused tiles is referred to as the "boneyard." Countrymm, it was exciting waiting to see a carefully constructed world to come down...and completely absorbing - which is was probably the attraction of the dominoes game.
Laura - I think you've touched on the significance of the dominoes falling like bodies in the living room. Rudy played while fate was being decided in the kitchen.
He was absorbed in the game. Later, when he was told what was being said in the kitchen, he said he would have told them he'd go. If he had intervened:
***Three Possibilities***
1. Alex Steiner wouldn't have suffered the same punishment as Hans Hubermann
2. Rudy would have gone away to school
3. And just maybe, he would have lived.
So many ifs onlys and maybes. Isn't that what history is all about, Ella? I know what you are saying about sadness. War is sadness - there are no victors. Zusak needed to tell this story, but he felt he was softening it by portraying Death as a gentle caring being, cradling and comforting, sometimes kissing the souls as he carried them away. Do you think he succeded in this?
-
I think that Rudy included Liesel in giving out the bread because he wanted them both to be "in it together" the way they had been throughout the story. I really don't think he thought out how dangerous it would be for both of them. I agree with the person who said he was modeling what Hans had done. He probably would not have given out the bread if he had not seen it done before.
I thought that the accordion was symbolic of the spirit of Hans and his relationship with his family. When he is away, Rosa cannot bear to make even a small sound with the instrument. Throughout all of the destruction of the bombing, and the deaths, the accordion survives and is handed on to Liesel who keeps it safe. I believe this is the way that the author tells the reader that the spirit of Hans will survive through his adopted daughter.
-
I've been reading Anne Frank's diary for the last two days. She was known as a "chatterbox" - was in trouble in school for talking so much. As Countrymm says, she now must keep perfectly still while in hiding. "How could she make sense of her thoughts and feelings." Her diary became her best friend. The same with Liesel...the same with Max. The power of words!
I just have to ask this - What do you think the author means by referring to Liesel as a Word Shaker? I can't come up with a satisfactory explanation. Max used it for the title of his "diary" - his sketchbook, his collection of thoughts and drawings he had worked on while he hid in the Hubermann's basement.
What did you think of the illustrated fable he wrote about? Did you understand why Liesel feels she now knows where Max has gone - after she read it? Do you think we have to wait for the next chapter, or are I missing clues here in the fable?
-
TRLEE - I missed your post but see it now - you make a good point, Rudy wanted them to be in it together. Hans has been punished for doing this - so Rudy would want to include Liesel - to honor Hans' gesture.
One more thought - I've been thinking of what you said yesterday, Laura - that "giving bread to the prisoners was the opposite of stealing." I agree that it is - but it is just as thrilling, isn't it? Did you notice that "there was a trace of a grin on her face as she and Rudy Steinr handed out the pieces of bread on the road." Liesel had been stealing from the rich Nazi household with Rudy at her side - and now she is helping Rudy defy the Nazis by handing bread to the Jews.
Wasn't that the saddest image, seeing Rosa sleeping hunched over the accordion? Do you believe Hans will make it back? He is a promise keeper, after all. He told Liesel he'd come back to play it once more. I wonder how many German soldiers made it home during the war. Especially towrds the end. Weren't you surprised to learn they were allowed to write letters home? I don't know why I was so surprised about this.
-
I thought that the saddest thing in the world was Liesel believing that her heart was so tired. "A 13 year old girl shouldn't feel like this" she thought.
I remember working a pediatric ICU with AIDS patients and going home feeling just that way- old and tired in my heart.
Liesels heart was broken and pain like that is difficult to explain. Rudy's heart wanted revenge. He wished to kill the fuhrer. ::)
Yes, how sad it was as Liesel tried to hear the music of the accordion as Rosa hugged it to being but the bellows didn't breathe. That is such a profound image to me- the bellows didn't breathe. Was Hans alive at this time? Was he breathing, she must have thought.
-
Han's job in the Air Raid Special Unit was much like our narrotor's job, wasn't it? In fact we're told that the grim reaper visited the small city street with the man still in Han's arms.
He was a dead body collector after the raids, forced to witness the roll call of names that limped through the ruptured streets, sometimes ending with an ash-filled embrace of a knelt-down howl of grief. Wow! This guy can write!!!!!!!!!!
-
I definitely felt it helped to personify Death as a compassionate and
caring being. Even though we know death is not a being at all, it is a
way to express our hope/feeling that there is something more, and better,
awaiting our loved ones who have died.
I have often reminded myself that God does not see death as we do. To
us it is a loss, and one that may inspire anger against God for allowing
it to happen. But God is on 'the other side'; what is 'death' to us is
homecoming to Him. I'm into personal beliefs now, of course, but I
think it is implicit in Zusak's character Death that he is taking souls
somewhere else. It is not an end.
-
Hans' job in the Air Raid Special Unit was much like our narrator's job, wasn't it? (Andy)
Andy, that was a great observation. Hans' job of collecting bodies is as exhausting as Death's, collecting souls. Especially when it comes to the dead children. The adolescent boy - (Rudolf, his mother calls for him) - of course reminds Hans of Rudy, Liesel, Rosa. Are they safe at home, he worries.
And they are worried about him - not knowing whether the accordion will breathe again. BUT we are given some reason to hope. Hans isn't in Stalingrad after all. He's in Stuttgart. Still dangerous, but then there's another possible reason to hope that Hans might come home again - "Reinhold Zucker would be dead. He would be killed by Hans Hubermann's seat."
Babi makes an important point - Hans is collecting dead bodies, Death is collecting souls. I agree with you, Babi. Death is taking souls somewhere else...while the bodies live only in the memories of the mourners. Do you think Death seems more concerned with the survivors' grief?
What impresses me reading these pages is how comforting it is to leave behind letters, a written diary, or even a book. How comforting it is for Liesel to have Max's sketchbook. What if he had never kept it?
Liesel is particularly drawn to the illustrated fairytale, "The Word Shaker". After reading it, she wonders where Max is, in all the forest out there. Then she falls asleep and when she wakes up, the answer to her question came. "Of course, I know where he is." And she went back to sleep.
Do you know where she knows he is?
What does the title of the story mean? - "THe Word Shaker"
Oh, and what do you see when you think of Max's "swampy eyes?"
-
Where is everyone? We only have one week left in our discussion.
Did I chase eveyone away Joan? :-[
-
I'm still here in the discussion. My guess is that most of our readers have finished the book and don't want to divulge anything. Face it, they are on to other books!
JoanP, I too wondered about Max's "swampy eyes". Maybe because he spent so much time in the dark basement, his eyes looked wet, limpid rather than bright and sparkly? Or maybe Liesel saw them as soulful?
I am pleased to see how much Rosa loves and misses Hans. Who knew? I still don't know what hardened her into the cardboard woman other people saw. Might it have something to do with her son having left and her daughter not being interested in a relationship with her parents? Maybe the loss of her own children is what made her be distant at first with poor little Liesel? Rosa is coming around!
I believe Liesel and Rudy just loved RISK. They loved to take a chance at being caught but then get away with it. I'm sure that the food they procured by thievery was much tastier than if it had just been handed to them. They also liked the concept of equality. Why should rich Germans have all the fine food, luxury items, and books? Let's even out the playing field a bit, they thought.
So at this point Rose is desolate, Liesel is really missing Max, and we're wondering if Hans will every come home. His job was the worst possible, wasn't it? Dealing with the results of what the Nazis did.
I admire Markus Zusak for being such a feeling, sensitive male. War really bothers him as does the breaking apart of families, the loss of friendships, the sadness of waiting endlessly for someone to return. To me HE is the Death character and wants to convey a feeling of protectiveness and care to all of us. Yes, I found that comforting. I rarely read such sensitive writing by other male authors. There is a really sweetness there and he knows how to build a closeness with his readers.
-
Joan, I too was a little confused about the symbolism of the "word shaker."
At the end of "The Sky Stealer" section in Part Seven (p. 383 in my book), after Liesel reads to the people in the air raid basement for the first time, when Rosa tells Max about it, the narrator says "Personally, I think that was the moment he [Max] conceived the next body of work for his sketchbook. The Word Shaker. He imagined the girl reading in the shelter. He must have watched her literally handing out the words. However, as always, he must also have seen the shadow of Hitler."
Max's story says that after Hitler "hypnotized" the people with his words, the "lovely ugly words and symbols increased to such a point that as the forests grew, many people were needed to maintain them. Some were employed to climb the trees and throw the words down to those below... The people who climbed the trees were called word shakers."
Max's story goes on to say that, from Liesel's tear that fell on Max's face while he was sick, a tree began to grow and became the tallest tree in the forest. This seems to me to say that this tree was different from the rest. It was created from the bond between Liesel and Max, their own words about how they saw life; not from Hitler's propaganda. That tree couldn't be cut down as long as Liesel remained in it. After Max climbed up and joined her, and showed her the power of her words, they both climbed down and the tree fell from the previous axe cuts, but as it fell, it took down many of the other trees and created new paths that influenced some of the other people.
I think that after reading Max's story and waking from her dream of the tree, Liesel believes that Max is figuratively up in the tree, standing against Hitler's words.
-
countrymm, I agree about the author's sensitivity. I thought the last few sentences of Part Nine display it very well. They definitely put a lump in my throat.
Rudy just tripped over the mannequin in his father's tailor shop.
"Then he closed his eyes, clenching them hard.
Liesel rushed over.
She crouched above him
Kiss him, Liesel, kiss him.
'Are you all right, Rudy? Rudy?'
'I miss him,' said the boy, sideways, across the floor.
"Frohe Weihnachten,' Liesel replied. She helped him up, straightening the suit. 'Merry Christmas.'"
-
Thank you, MARCIE. That was a lovely explanation for the "Word Shaker"
and one that makes sense. Maybe the other trees that fell
were some of Hitler's words. In a way, we might say that Zusak's book is
making new paths that influence people. He is influencing us, isn't he?
-
I think The Word Shaker is eloquent. The author's ability to express the power of words really shines in this chapter. He touches not only on ideas (words), but how they spread and are maintained.
-
Oh my. Oh my. Oh my. I've just finished the book - and can see where some of you were stunned into silence. Let's hold off talking about it for one more day just in case everyone is not finished - - and then hear from everyone. Be thinkking about how you would rate the book, too, okay?
Frybabe, I agree, the Word Shaker is eloquent. Marcie's post was eloquent too!
Thank you for comments on the meaning of "Word Shaker". Marcie, when I read your post - that some were employed to climb the trees and throw words down to those below, I thought of apple picking. My boys used to send the lightest one up and he'd shake the branches so the apples would fall to those below. And I thought of my squirrel-proof bird feeder. Those smart squirrels figured out that though they were unable to get to the seed, they could send one up to swing and "shake" the feeder, so seeds would fall to the ground to the others. Now I think of Liesel in this way. Now that's NOT eloquent, I admit. She shook down the words into the minds of the trembling neighbors as the sirens screamed - distracting them with her voice.
And of course, Hitler was a word shaker. His words were "hypnotic." I had missed that reference in Max's fable. Babi, your suggestion that maybe the other trees that fell were Hitler's words - works for me.
Liesel takes heart from the fable - Marcie writes "Liesel believes that Max is figuratively up in the tree, standing against Hitler's words." Can we take it further? Does Liesel now believe that Max will stand tall, stand firm?
Max's "swampy eyes" - Countrymm - I still can't picture them. "Wet and limpid. " Maybe they were no particular color? A murky mix of brown and green or blue...and soulful as you say? Whatever they were, they were unlike most others - his swampy eyes, his feathered locks. She continues to look for him.
I agree, those were the most touching images of Rosa with the accordion. She can't make it sing, breathe, but she holds it close so that when it does breathe, she'll be the first to feel it.
I wonder if Markus Zusak writes with such sensitivity because this is how his mother related her memories to him. .
-
JoanP, is it possible to see "swamoy eyes" as eyes filled with unshed tears?
-
straudetwo, I like your idea of "swampy eyes" being filled with unshed tears. Maybe his eyes appeared to be brimming with such tears.
I'm happy to see several of you back in the discussion. I too have finished the book. I'll watch for more postings tomorrow.
-
"swampy eyes" - eyes brimming with unshed tears. I like that, Traudee, I really do. Now I understand what you were saying, Countrymm...expecially when considering what happens in the last chapters...but I'll wait until tomorrow morning!
-
So much went on in these last chapters - I don't know where to start this morning! I'm going to let you start. I'll leave you with a question though -
What is the meaning of "The Last Human Stranger," the title of the last book Liesel took from Ilsa Hermann's library, and the title of one of Liesel's last stories? A human stranger?
Maybe this question belongs in the heading above if you think it's important...
-
I do wish I still had the book but I loaned it to a neighbor and I haven't seen her since. On rainy days I don't walk around the "pond" and don't see neighbors.
We all have had different reactions to the book. I thought it very, very sad but at the same time I couldn't put it down; there were beautiful parts to it, of course. The writing was superb and I wonder if the author, without his mother's memories, will be able to write another.
A quote from a book review in our local paper: "Literature is messy. There's not a black-and-white answer."
-
We all have had different reactions to the book. I thought it very, very sad but at the same time I couldn't put it down; there were beautiful parts to it, of course. The writing was superb and I wonder if the author, without his mother's memories, will be able to write another.
A quote from a book review in our local paper: "Literature is messy. There's not a black-and-white answer."
Ella, I like that quote. I think it's very apt for this book. The book is sad and ugly and joyful and beautiful at the same time. Boy, was I crying when Liesel emerges from the basement after the bombing to find that everyone she loves is dead. The scene over Rudy's body is excrutiating. The mayor's wife comes for Liesel. When Mr. Steiner returns from his war service, Liesel is able to provide comfort. And after the war, Liesel is reunited with Max. We know that Liesel is able to love another, after Rudy's death. She eventually marries and has children and grand children. The first time I read the book, I thought that Liesel married someone we don't know...someone she met later in life. I didn't think that she and Max would have gotten together. I just didn't think that they would have had that kind of relationship. Now, upon reading it again, I'm not so sure about whether or not they would have married. As JoanP said earlier, Max is not mentioned as one of the people on her mind when Death comes for her. Her "husband" is mentioned. And Max does come back from Dachau and finds Liesel. I am now open to the possibility that Max and Liesel may have married.
-
JoanP, the meaning of "The last human stranger" isn't clear to me. It's the title of the part of the book where Rudy and Liesel find the downed plane with the American pilot. Rudy gives him the bear to ease his death. I am wondering if this act of humanity on Rudy's part to a stranger (who was, in fact an enemy), showed how humans (from the point of view of the narrator, Death) can cross over barriers of hate and war. The teddy bear was originally going to be part of an attack by Rudy on his perceived enemy, the Fuhrer and wealthy Germans. Now, it was being used to give comfort to an actual enemy, who maybe was in some sense the "last human stranger." That caring act symbolizes that there aren't any more strangers.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefdominocvr.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief); Epilogue
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief); EPILOGUE
1. Do you think the story would have been different if Liesel didn't keep having nightmares about her brother? Did you understand why she stopped dreaming about him after she returned the cookie plate to Ilsa Hermann?
2. What brought Ilsa Hermann down to 33 Himmel St? Why did she give the lined notebook to Liesel? What was her warning to Liesel?
3. Liesel wrote a book that was divided into 10 parts, each telling of how books and stories affected her life. Liesel is the author of this book then?
4. How does Liesel answer Rudy when he asks her how it feels to steal a book? Is her answer the reason he left the teddy bear with the dying pilot? (Why had he packed that teddy bear in his toolbox?)
5. Did you notice Death's explanation why he has been offering us a glimpse of the end before it actually happens?
6. Was Liesel ready to die when she joined Max in the road? How did Rudy save her? After she told him about Max, was it significant that he didn't kiss her then?
7. Why did Death carry Rudy's soul "with a salty eye and a heavy heart"? Rudy got to him. Can these be Liesel's thoughts? Why did she later tell Rudy's father that she had kissed him?
8. Now how did Liesel get to Sydney? What happened to Max? Dare we imagine they went together? Can you find a reason to support this?
9.. Death meets Liesel on her last day and wants to tell her about the beauty and the brutality of war. Do you think she knows this already? Did you see beauty in this story?
10. Everything considered, how would you rate this book on a scale of 1 * - 5 ***** What will you remember about this book?. Would you recommend it to a friend? To a teenager?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I - VIII ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
Ella - I will agree, literature is messy. (So is history! And war!) Perhaps what makes this particular story hard to judge - it is a mix of literature (fiction) and events that really happened to the authors mother. I think that Markus Zusak has shown us that he has a gift, he CAN write. I'm not sure he will use his mother's stories in the future - perhaps his future novels will not strike such a chord as this one. I guess that remains to be seen.
Wait, do we all agree that Liesel is the author's mother, Lisa Zusak?
Marcie, the scene where Liesel emerges from the basement was so well drawn, wasn't it? No tears, it was just as if she was in shock. She wasn't even sure she was on Himmel St. She felt like a stranger. In the last book Ilsa Hermann had left out for her -THE LAST HUMAN STRANGER - Liesel had marked a quote from p.38:
"There were people everywhere on the city street, but the stranger could not have been more alone if it were empty."
Liesel is now the human stranger walking down what once was Himmel St. - alone.
Marcie, the example you give -" the act of humanity on Rudy's part to a stranger (who was, in fact an enemy), showed how humans (from the point of view of the narrator, Death) can cross over barriers of hate and war." Do you remember how WWII was said to be the war to end all wars? So terrible, such atrocities would never take place again. No more strangers, enemies, just one big happy human race!
-
There's a powerful scene I can't get out of my mind...it occurred when Liesel spotted Max on the forced march through town to Dachau. She spots his swampy eyes and hair of twigs. She steps into the midst of the marchers, Max orders her away - flings her away. She makes her way back to him, using her words - his words. He stands still - "It's such a beautiful day, he says." He kisses the palm of her hand - He cries into her fingers. Those swampy eyes overflow into her fingers.
Marcie, I agree, Liesel wouldn't have forgotten Max as when Death comes for her. What other explanation can there be? He must have been her husband.
Let's see how many agree with this.
He'd have been the author's father, then. Can't explain where the name Zusak came from - but then, no explanation was given as to how Max escaped Dachau either. Was it the end of the war? Was he liberated? Don't know, but do know that Liesel would never have forgotten Max at the end when Death handed her her black book.
-
I think Liesel and Max do marry. Their reunion is the last scene in the book before her death, so I assume that Death, our narrator, had nothing he felt important to say in between those two episodes. Therefore, I assume that she and Max “lived happily ever after.”
However, I have no idea how or why they ended up in Sydney!
I got the impression that Max was liberated at the end of the war.
Building upon what Marcie said, I think Rudy was the last human stranger. He left the teddy bear for the pilot, an act of humanity, done by a stranger, at the last moments of the pilot’s life.
Joan, I think the scariest part of the book was when Liesel entered the parade of Jews to be near Max. I don’t think she realized just how dangerous it would be. She and Rudy had escaped unharmed when they gave bread to the prisoners, so I think Liesel thought she could get away with interacting with Max.
-
Well damn! I read this book three times and it never occurred to me that Max and Liesel married. Laura-Why not? Indeed- it would stand to reason that he had been liberated and in 1945 sought out this beautiful child that he loved. How old would she have been at that point -15 or 16? Of course her heart was much more mature and aged than a normal child of 15 or 16.
"They hugged and cried and fell to the floor."
Then are we to assume they became man and wife? hmmmmm
I have never been a believer in "they lived happily ever after" stories.
The only weakness that I could find in this entire flawless writing was that I felt Zusak ended this beautiful tale with too many questions left unanswered. Whom did she marry? If it were Max it would have been worthy to mention. If not- than it is unimportant to name the husband.
Why did he have Liesel at the end living in Sydney as an old woman? Why not in Germany?
That opens up another scenerio doesn't it?
Zusak thanks everyone in his acknowledgements and in his final sentence he thanks Lisa (Liesel) and Helmut Zusak (Max?).
If I could find another book worthy of this one, I'd go one for all of us to discuss.
-
In answer to Joan's last question I rate this book a 5+++++++. It is seldom that I find a book that I love as much as I did this one. I bought it for my 14 yr. old granddaughter and my daughter. I fear lending mine out. What if someone likes it as well as I did?
Well- I will have to go buy another one won't I? What's next for Zusak? How in the world could he top this story?
Did Frybaby hear anything about the type font as of yet?
-
ALF said: Well damn! I read this book three times and it never occurred to me that Max and Liesel married. Laura-Why not?
I have never been a believer in "they lived happily ever after" stories.
LOL! I can’t imagine NOT thinking Max and Liesel married! Maybe it is because you have never been a believer in “happily ever after” stories that you couldn’t see one when it was presented to you?
The unanswered questions at the end of the book don’t other me. In fact, I’m not one to finish books hoping for a sequel. The story the author intended to tell, the story of the period of time when Liesel lived with Hans and Rosa and wrote her book, is complete. To add more would be tacking on more where it is not needed.
Here is my reading journal entry on The Book Thief:
A very original story about Germany during World War II. I didn’t learn anything new about the Holocaust from the book, but the writing style and the choice of Death as the narrator made the book for me.
I give it five stars!
-
Did Frybaby hear anything about the type font as of yet?
Not a peep, Andy.
-
"This book felt like poetry. Words flew by, took side steps, presented colourful descriptions and strange references that painted a foreign landscape.
And the narrator is Death.
Death is following circumstances in a German town during the second world war. He/she/it has it's hands full, escorting people thru their turmoils, while it ponders these humans & their fates. Some of these people manage to evade death a number of times. And one of these people is Liesel; a youngster who is travelling with her mother, and brother. But before they reach the safety of the children's new accomodation, one of them is visited by death.
A very touching read. Haunting. "
Above is my entry for 'readersopinions.com'---what a book
Sorry for my 'verbal diarrhea thruout the reading of this book. I so thoroughly enjoyed reading your imput, and was captivated by the ideas & chatter, I always felt 'one behind the eight-ball' so to speak. The book stayed with me; that I couldn't pick up another book for a couple of days, or it would interfer with my mindset from this book. I really felt for 'death' character, I sense it was swayed by the extra turmoil in it's worklife during the war!
I applaude whoever picked this book to read. And thank-you.
Deb
-
---having trouble with accessing the 'spell check', so excuse my spelling, perhaps its the pop-ups on my computer, will try to recitify this problem'
Deb
-
Deb- I'm sorry about your spell check being on the blink. Are you speaking of the one we have built into our website, here?
I love the thought that it felt like poetry to you as well as it did to me. Each page held its own song, didn't it?
I apologize to you for feeling this way:
Sorry for my 'verbal diarrhea thruout the reading of this book. I so thoroughly enjoyed reading your imput, and was captivated by the ideas & chatter, I always felt 'one behind the eight-ball' so to speak.
Joan and I must have been remiss if you felt like that. We encourage verbal diarrhea here. ( I am the star pupil when it comes to that.)
We encourage you to be captivated and moved, as well, but never do we want anyone to feel like they are behind the eight ball. We love it when you pop up on site and have soemthing to say. Who cares whether anyone agrees with you or not. That is what this is all about and we were happy to have you with us.
-
Well thank you anyway for trying to find an answer for us, Frybaby. I still like my idea. It is a book full of tears and the font is faintly smudged with the tears of the characters and the reader. :(
laura- :D You are 100% correct. I don't do Cinderella stories well so it never once crossed my mind. Although I love the Count of Monte Cristoe and its ending. Happiness is in the eye of the beholder.
::)
-
Well I certainly give book a 5+. However I do not think that liesel married Max. I think she always loved him but I do not think that this is a story with a happy romantic ending.I guess I am the only one who feels this way... I think her telling the stories to her son was just away of living over the feelings that she still feels..Joan Grimes
-
Joan, you are not alone. I didn't get the impression that she married Max either. However, anyone who goes through such a terrible experience together has a special bond with each other that time rarely erases.
-
That is true Frybabe.
I am glad that you agree with me about their not marrying..
-
In this link, Mr. Zusak discusses two of his books, The Book Thief and Fighting Ruben Wolfe. I noticed at the beginning of the second interview Zusak states that his book, Underdog, is the closest to his real life while Fighting Ruben Wolfe has a more auto-biographical FEEL to it. http://www.teenreads.com/authors/au-zusak-markus.asp
I'll be darned if I can find it now, but I read something where he discussed how long it took to write The Book Thief and the changes he made in the process. Apparently, Death was not originally the narrator, death as sinister character didn't work, etc. It took him over three years to write it. He didn't give up, he just kept trying out different ways of presenting it until he hit upon what felt right. In the article, he said he went to Germany to do research and while there carved Leisel's and Max's names into a tree by a river.
-
Ummm--it never occured to me that Liesel and Max married (and I am an eternal optimist/happily ever after person). I guess because I always pictured Max as much older. Yet, if what Frybabe says is correct about Zusak carving their names in a heart maybe it was the author's intention to give us the impression that they married. I have really enjoyed this discussion and the many varied opinions/thoughts. It's made me rethink some of my first reading of the book. This was the best book that I have read in years!
Sally
P.S. Frybabe, is that what you want us to call you?
-
I'm back now that everyone has finished the book. Two thoughts: Maybe Liesel married Max but I thought it was too simplistic if it turned out that way. I kind of think the author just wanted us to speculate about what happened.
Perhaps Lisa (for whom our character was named) and Zusak's father had met each other in Germany during this distressing war period and left for a new start in Australia. Sounds like a good idea to me.
I really like the "Death" character. In the prologue he says:
"The question is, what color will everything be at that moment when I come for you? What will the sky be saying?"
Fascinating thought if we think about Death coming to carry US away. He also says that his one saving grace is distraction. It keeps him sane. It helps him cope. He makes distraction his vacation. He deliberately seeks out COLORS to keep his mind off the "leftover humans", the survivors. They are the ones he grieves for and he says they are "crumbling among the jigsaw puzzle of realization, despair , and surprise. They have punctured heart. They have beaten lungs."
The softness of Zusak comes through in his creation of the character Death, and yet Death says in the prologue, "Just don't ask me to be nice. Nice has nothing to do with me."
I will reread the beautiful parts of this book. They are really luscious. I have a feeling that the author's previous books are not at all like this one. I've read some of the book jackets at the library and I didn't see anything poignant like TBT. I doubt he will write a sequel. Anyone planning to see the movie, The Book Thief, when it comes out?
-
Here is a link I just found. It's a discussion of young adult fiction from readers in England. They are discussing how they would feel about TBT being made into a movie. Also, which cover do you like best?
http://www.wondrousreads.com/2009/02/book-thief-cover-gallery-and-movie.html
-
countrymm- I don't know how in the world the beauty of Zusek's language could be transferred into cinema production. However, IF it is made into a movie I could not hold myself back from viewing it.
Thanks for the link.
My cover is the domino cover, Joan's was the Grim Reaper and the yellow cover with the young lass sitting and reading while the grim reaper is silhouetted behind her is wonderful. I like that one.
-
Well, there has to be one, doesn't there? Me? I am not a fiction reader usually and I have no idea why I read this one. Consequently, I feel I am definitely not a judge of characters, story, narration, etc. As most of you said, the book was full of lyrical writing, a bit much at times, I felt. Too much? I'm used to real people in books and DEATH was too much for me to contemplate.
I wish the author well, I enjoyed reading all the posts! I see from the clickable that Countrymm just posted, a movie is contemplated. Heavens! Stop that idea! The book stands alone, although the author would benefit wouldn't he? Movies pay well! HOw would DEATH be portrayed? I cannot imagine!
Thanks to JOANP and ALF, you are both great at discussing at what lies beneath the surface!
-
Salan, Frybabe is a moniker I picked up one day from a client. The Babe part was purely in the client's minds eye since we had never met in person. I work for Fry Communications, hence the Fry part. Or you can call me Margie.
-
Frybabe/Margie, I think you read that interview in the back of the paperbook edition of The Book Thief. That's where I recall those facts from.
-
Oh, almost forgot. The only information I have seen about Zusak's parents is that is father was Austrian and a house painter and his mother is from Germany. There isn't much about Markus either. He is in his 30s now and, I think, very handsome. Did you know that I Am The Messenger actually got more awards than The Book Thief?
Laura, I saw it online somewhere. I forgot about the interview in the back
-
Laura, you are so organized. I've envied your reading journal.. Wish I had kept one years ago. I think it's too late now - or maybe not. We're getting ready behind the scenes for our May discussion of Anne Tyler's latest novel, Noah's Compass - which deals with memory loss. I guess it's time to start writing things down. (Deb, posters here "picked" The Book Thief in a vote just like the one we just had that came up with Noah's Compass and Possession for May and June. So you have them to thank for this choice.)
I'll agree with your journal entry - "I didn’t learn anything new about the Holocaust from the book, but the writing style and the choice of Death as the narrator made the book for me."
I feel I did gain insight into the lives of the ordinary German people during the war, though. Something I've always been curious about. (Traude's posts helped too - merci, Traude - beaucoup!)
We seem divided as to whether Max and Liesel got together at the end. Remember the scene when Liesel found Hans' body? Remember Death telling us that Hans rose up and played the accordion to her one last time? You don't suppose that the author was doing the same thing with Max walking into Mr. Steiner's shop after the war, do you? No! I don't want to believe that! But it has passed through my mind. I want to believe that he came back to her and that they stayed together - or else why wouldn't she have mentioned Max at the end?
I can understand why some of you are of the opinion that it would be too "simplistic" if true, but even if you don't think the two did marry and move on to Australia - consider what it would mean. Liesel and Max would then be Markus Zusack's mama and papa. Impossible to separate fact from fiction - but if in fact "Max" was his father, then the author would have heard first hand what it was like to be a Jew in Germany at this time - and could write with such sensitivity that we see in this book.
Frybabe/Margie found that MZ took three years to write the book - as part of his research he went to Munich - and carved Max and Liesel's name on a tree. - not Liesel and Rudy, but Liesel and Max. This, following his mother's death. How did that strike you?
I'm missing Gum, these days - who would probably tell us that it wasn't that unusual considering that many many Germans came to Australia following the war -
Look at the number of ships that sailed to Australia to be properly impressed with the numbers, to see that it would not have been unusual for MZ's parents to come to Sydney -
Imigration Ships into Australia (http://www.immigrantships.net/v5/1900v5/oceania19571215.html)
-
Ella, a while back we read and discussed Cormac McCarthy's THE ROAD - and we learned that it was to be made into a film. We couldnt' see it, but the film came out - and sure enough, it was a bust. Like Andy, I won't be able to stay away from a film of the Book Thief, but know in advance, Countrymm, that I will be disappointed - for the same reasons you mentioned. Here's a trailer for the film - wait till you hear the narrator - Let's see if this works -
The Book Thief - film (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95s8GlKY40o)
-
AS some of you have brought up - the book is really about the writing, isn't it? Do you think the writing comes first - and then the story? Or the story more important than the writing?
In the interview in the link you brought us today, Frybabe, I was interested to read what was more important to the author - can you guess?
TRC: THE BOOK THIEF is, among other things, a love letter to books, writing, and the power of words. What excites you when you write?
MZ: I love the idea that there can be one gem on every page of a book. It can be an image, an idea or a piece of dialogue --- anything. If there's one gem on every page of a hundred-page book, that's a hundred good reasons to read it.
TRC: What three elements does a book need in order to grab your attention as a reader? What are you reading these days that's making you take notice?
MZ: The first thing is the gems I just mentioned, the second would be story. While it's nice to have the gems, if the story doesn't captivate me, it makes finding the great images that little bit harder. Lastly, I think voice. Someone once told me that voice is everything, and they were probably right. If you can hear the characters or the narrator talking, they can almost tell you anything and you will go with them. I am currently reading the Australian classic, CLOUDSTREET, by Tim Winton. It is all of the things I've just mentioned.
What do you think, did Zusak succeed in putting a gem on every page? (and then some?) I didn't know that was what he was trying to do- thought the gems were just flowing from his pen as he concentrated on the story... Ella, I'd like to hear a little more about what you meant by "too much"
-
I found this interesting. It was posted by JoanP.
Frybabe/Margie found that MZ took three years to write the book - as part of his research he went to Munich - and carved Max and Liesel's name on a tree. - not Liesel and Rudy, but Liesel and Max. This, following his mother's death. How did that strike you?
Good point. Maybe the author really did see them as a couple for the long term. Of course, Rudy is out of the picture now, so Max is the only possibility, isn't he? I can't help thinking how different the lives of Liesel and Max had been. What would their marriage have been like? Kind of joking here, but maybe they would have named their children Hans and Rosa as a tribute to the couple who protected both of them?
Did Leisel ever see Rudy as a possible partner for the future?
Isn't it interesting that Liesel's own attempt to write a book saved her life? Wasn't she in the basement working on the book when her house was bombed?
Max gave Liesel his story "The Standover Man" for her birthday. What do you see as the significance of the story? Is he saying that Liesel was his protector, that she "had his back"?Do you think that Liesel's survival and very long life represent beauty in the wake of brutality?
-
Maybe I'll have to give Tim Winton's book "Cloudstreet" another try. I found it too stark and the reality was pretty brutal. However, Zusak says he loves it. Time for me to revisit the book? I gave it away.
Yes, I believe that Liesel had seen both beauty and brutality in her life. Death did not need to show her any more of it. I'm happy that she somehow got beyong the sadness she had witnessed in the loss of her brother, her mother, and later Hans, Rosa and even Rudy. If she did marry Max, he would have understood her losses and would have helped her move on. Hmm. That kind of consoles me. Should I email Zusak and ask him if they got married? I'll bet he would say that he left it vague for each reader to make his or her own decision about the ending.
I recommended this book to a good friend but once I finished it, I told her she might not want to read it. She is Jewish and might have had real difficulty getting through the last few chapters. I think she appreciated being warned about that. Would you recommend the book to Jewish friends?
-
I still do not think that Liesel and Max Had that kind of relationship. I just do not believe that they married..That was strange period. They were very close friends. It would spoil the book for me if I believed they married. I am not expressing myself very well tonight. It is late an probably should wait until tomorrow to write anymore.
-
Major apologies to the group: I reread the interview and MZ says he carved Liesel and Rudy on the tree, not Max as I erroneously reported.
-
COUNTRY, that link really made me sit up. I definitely cannot see
Liesel and Death skpping merrily down the road! And the line-up of
dominoes about to be knocked over doesn't fit, either. I much prefer
the cover of the girl lying on her back reading the large book.
I have to agree with whoever it was that said the idea of a Hollywood
treatment of TBT was horrifying. It would take an exceptional director
to do that successfully.
Oh, dear, JOANP. That trailer for the film seemed excessively gruesome
for an opening. For me, it sets the wrong theme for the book. It colors
one's expectations and I fear that the beauty of Zusak's language would
be lost.
-
hahahahaaha, that is very funny, Margie! Mercy! You had me going! Good of you to let us know!
I agree about the film, Babi. But tell me, when the movie comes out, do you think you will see it? It was interesting to see how the narrator has been cast, no?
JoanG, I know what you are saying...how the story would change for you IF the two married. That's not the story that Markus Zusak wrote, is it? Max is about ten years older than Liesel. They are thrown together in very close proximity during an impossibly difficult times. Of course they developed a close relationship - how close, we don't know, won't know. If we do the math, the author, who is 35 years old now, was born in 1975 or thereabouts. If Liesel was 15 at the end of the war, that would make her how old when Markus was born? This is a math test. ;)
If there ever was an intimate relationship between the two, it would have happened many years after the war ended. And that story is not one that the author is telling in The Book Thief. A beautiful story that stands alone without a happily ever after ending. Maybe we should concentrate on the book we have in front of us today.
I was stunned to realize the Book Thief is the title of the book Liesel wrote in the lined notebook.. Liesel's book. I had assumed all along that it was Death's - the story he was telling us. Now I'm not so sure that Death is a "he" - the story is Liesel's, divided into TEN parts, each chapter based on a story that she has read or been told. I'm very eager to hear how you reacted to this revelation - or were you aware that it was Liesel's, all the way through the book?
-
I reread the Prologue section titled “The Flag.” Having finished the book, I could deduce that what we were about to read, The Book Thief, was Liesel’s story. However, when first beginning the book, I did not pick that up. I think I knew that Death was telling us the story in the book he picked up called The Book Thief. Finding out in the end that The Book Thief was Liesel’s story didn’t affect how I felt about the overall story --- it was like the maraschino cherry on a sundae, not essential to the dessert, but a nice finishing touch.
-
I really loved this book, and I enjoyed reading it with you all. I have no doubt that Liesel and Max married and immigrated to Austrailia--that's where I would start my movie. A true similar story is about an American soldier who was one of first to enter a concentration camp, and he carried a young woman to the hospital that had been set up. They married, live in America and have a large family. She took my son's passport photo and told him the whole story
-
Did Leisel ever see Rudy as a possible partner for the future?
countrymm-I don't think Liesel ever considered Rudy would NOT be a part of her future. He was her best friend, her partner in crime, in war, in stealth and in love.
-
Elizabeth, that is a fascinating story! I have the feeling that the stories from this period are way beyond our ability to comprehend. Bigger than life, too big to be true. Imagine a young soldier liberating a camp and marrying the girl he carries out of the camp! Isn't that a beautiful story that actually happened in a dreadful setting. We saw examples of this in The Book Thief, didn't we? Without Zusak's "gems" I don't think we could have come through at the end with such warm glowing memories of this horrendous period in history.
The Book Thief, Liesel's story - "like the maraschino cherry on a sundae, not essential to the dessert, but a nice finishing touch"
Good simile, Laura - Why not write that in your journal - (and I'll put it on our list of metaphors.)
Is there anything that you want to talk about in the remaining time we have together? One of the characters I found fascinating was Ilsa Hermann...with those swastikas on her bedroom slippers, no less. What did you make of her? What was her story? Did Liesel's words really change her?
-
I had the impression that Ilsa Hermann was a fragile, weak and malleable woman, unhappily married to a dominant man. Her husband was a strong Nazi and I'm sure he controlled most everything that went on in their house, perhaps even insisting she wear the robe and slippers with swastika symbols on them.
I believe Ilsa felt so much guilt over the way her soldier son died in the freezing cold weather, that the only way she could cope was to leave the window open to make herself suffer the same cold he experienced. She was still grieving when she met Liesel and I think she liked having a child back in the library again, the way her son had spent time with her there. That was why she purposely left the library window open, hoping Liesel would come back and that they could get to know each other. Ilsa was isolated, very unhappy, and lonely.
After a while, she began to feel sorry for Liesel who loved books so much but didn't have the means to buy any. She must have seen something very special in Liesel. Otherwise, she would never have walked all the way to Himmel St. to talk to Liesel and to give her the lined book, which later turns out to be the book Liesel wrote over the years, telling 10 stories that happened during her life. Maybe each story was about a separate person: Hans, Rosa, Rudy, Max, Mr. Steiner, Ilsa Hermann, her birth mother, her brother, etc.
How much longer do we have for discussing the book? How many of you are going over to the April book discussion of Troublesome Young Men? I have the book but haven't started it yet.
-
I thought it very interesting that Ilsa and the Mayor took Liesel in after she lost Hans and Rosa. What kind of life do you think Liesel had with them? Appreciation or resentment? Maybe a little of both?
-
Re-reading the last two chapters again made me cry. I rate the book 5++++++ I would be hesitant in having a 14 year old read the book. I guess it would depend on their maturity.
This quote from the book actually reflects my view on the book. Could be so ugly, so glorious and its words and stories so damning and brilliant.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefdominocvr.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Discussion Schedule:
March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV (mein kampf; the standover man)
March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief); Epilogue
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief); EPILOGUE
1. Do you think the story would have been different if Liesel didn't keep having nightmares about her brother? Did you understand why she stopped dreaming about him after she returned the cookie plate to Ilsa Hermann?
2. What brought Ilsa Hermann down to 33 Himmel St? Why did she give the lined notebook to Liesel? What was her warning to Liesel?
3. Liesel wrote a book that was divided into 10 parts, each telling of how books and stories affected her life. Liesel is the author of this book then?
4. How does Liesel answer Rudy when he asks her how it feels to steal a book? Is her answer the reason he left the teddy bear with the dying pilot? (Why had he packed that teddy bear in his toolbox?)
5. Did you notice Death's explanation why he has been offering us a glimpse of the end before it actually happens?
6. Was Liesel ready to die when she joined Max in the road? How did Rudy save her? After she told him about Max, was it significant that he didn't kiss her then?
7. Why did Death carry Rudy's soul "with a salty eye and a heavy heart"? Rudy got to him. Can these be Liesel's thoughts? Why did she later tell Rudy's father that she had kissed him?
8. Now how did Liesel get to Sydney? What happened to Max? Dare we imagine they went together? Can you find a reason to support this?
9.. Death meets Liesel on her last day and wants to tell her about the beauty and the brutality of war. Do you think she knows this already? Did you see beauty in this story?
10. Everything considered, how would you rate this book on a scale of 1 * - 5 ***** What will you remember about this book?. Would you recommend it to a friend? To a teenager?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I - VIII ; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
So much to think about in this book! I see Ilsa's connection to Liesel as the same connection all we book lovers have with each other. Loving books and reading gives us common ground that transcends race, religion, or philosophy. I personally feel a connection with people who love books, and an automatic "disconnect" (of a sort) with those who don't. When book lovers get together, they automatically share common ground.
I will not be joining next month's discussion. Non-fiction is not really my "cup of tea", and after absorbing The Book Thief; I need some light reading for a while. I will be around for Noah's Compass, and Possession.
Sally
-
Guten Morgen, Alles!
Countrymm - a good assessment of Ilsa Hermann as she was when Liesel first comes into contact with her when she delivered the laundry with her mother. The woman never seemed to get dressed, did she? Always in her bathrobe, no matter the time of day. "Fragile, weak and malleable." I'm not sure if she was unhappily married, though she was clearly unhappy. We don't know much about the Mayor, except that he was a Nazi - and he had a very depressed wife at home. The Mayor must have been suffering the loss of their son, as well, don't you think?
Sally, I think you're right - it was Liesel's appreciation for her books in her library that touched off the connection between the two. Do you think Ilsa saw herself at Liesel's age - before tragedy struck and she cut herself off from everyone, from life?
Wasn't that a striking image - Ilsa walking down to Himmel Street - dressed! On those "porcelain legs" - what an image!!! What did the image of the porcelain legs suggest to you? We hadn't seen Ilsa dressed, ever. Here she is in a bright summer dress, having tea in Rosa's kitchen, (was it tea?) with Liesel. And then the gift - the lined notebook with the words of advice. Write it all down, Liesel, don't be like me, keeping everything bottled up inside. Wasn't she telling Liesel with this gift to keep on living?
And then there's Frybabe/Margie's question -
What kind of life do you think Liesel had with Ilsa and the Mayor after the bombing? Margie, this question has me thinking about what kind of life any of the German people had following the war. I hope Traudee gets here to address this question before we break . (As you can see in the discussion schedule above, we will be finishing up on April 4 - but always stay open a few extra days to be sure we've heard from everyone.)
Jenny, I have to admit that I did not cry at the end as so many did. I remember being very quiet, and very sad at so much that had happened, and so much that MIGHT have been. ("Might have beens" always get to me. Just one kiss would have been enough for me.) I thought the book ended on a high note, with the promise that for Liesel, at least, life would go on.
May I ask what you learned from the this "ugly, glorious story - its words and stories so damning and brilliant"?
-
For me, the book brought insight, truth with no blinders about the beastliness of war.
-
I would be curious, JOAN. However, I might wait to hear from others who
have seen it before deciding if I want to do risk it.
If the Mayor is strongly pro-Nazi...and he would have to at least
pretend to be, wouldn't he?...then I can't help thinking it would be
very hard for Liesel living in that house. But she and Ilsa have formed
a bond, and perhaps the Mayor remains a shadowy figure in the background
of her life.
-
Drats- I went to look something up and lost my #^%&*(#(@! post.
Ok It was probably too long anyway.
Sally-Loving books and reading gives us common ground that transcends race, religion, or philosophy.
I agree with that but do not feel that was the connection that brought Liesel and Ilsa together. Ilsa was mourning the loss of her son, filled with apathy and angst to the point she isolated herself from the world, albeit her bathrobe. That is depression to the Nth degree.
Liesel jolted her out of her detachment and lassitude by raising her voice when her mother was fired as the laundress. That is probably the first time anyone had given her any attention at all, negative or positive. We tend to shrink from and avoid those afflicted with grief and suffering. Their distress tends to enhance our own sorrow and melancholy.
Liesel brounght life back into that house for Ilsa with her youth, with her daring and with her impetuous pranks, as she became more and more obsessed with books.
Joan-The Mayor must have been suffering the loss of their son, as well, don't you think?
We will never know that will we because the author, much to my surprise, strangely chose to make this PRO-Nazi a very minor character.
-
Ilsa walking down to Himmel Street - dressed! On those "porcelain legs" - what an image!!! What did the image of the porcelain legs suggest to you? We hadn't seen Ilsa dressed, ever. Here she is in a bright summer dress, having tea in Rosa's kitchen, (was it tea?) with Liesel. And then the gift - the lined notebook with the words of advice. Write it all down, Liesel, don't be like me, keeping everything bottled up inside. Wasn't she telling Liesel with this gift to keep on living?
AHA! Life moves on for Ilsa and the gift of the book was her way of returning her appreciation for what Liesel had brought to her life. She reciprocrated with a book for the gift of life given back to her, by Liesel. (Didn't Liesel do the same throughout this story?)
The legs of procelain, Joan, I saw as big, white and enamel, ceramic like a toilet bowl. ;D
-
LOL, Andy, on the ceramic "toilet bowl" legs. I saw them as white and fragile like a "China doll."
The bombing of Dresden took place in 1945 (I was thinking that was around the time of the accidental Himmel Street bombing in the book). WWII ended shortly after that. If this timeline is correct for the book, then Liesel would be living with the Mayor and his wife starting shortly before the war ended. I don't know if there continued to be the big NAZI push after the war. Perhaps the mayor no longer had to show his Nazi loyalty (real or pretend) and that would make it more possible for Liesel to live with them. It sounds like she spent much of her time with Rudy's father in his shop during the day, after he returned from his war service.
-
Elizabeth, Joan P, and all, I again mention a wonderful non-fiction book of stories which I highly recommend, Small Miracles of the Holocaust. Here is a synopsis from the publisher:
From the authors of the bestselling Small Miracles series comes this inspirational collection of over 50 stories - each with the upbeat twist ending that has become the trademark of this remarkable series.
The authors, both second-generation Holocaust survivors, have culled stories from before, during, and after the Holocaust that demonstrate the full strength and power of the human spirit.
Stories reaffirming that nothing truly happens by accident…
Even during the worst of times small miracles did happen - and the legacies of those individuals live on.
I think Ilsa and her husband did not interact much. I assume that he was working long hours. Slippers with swastikas on them seem so over the top that I am now thinking that the mayor may have been putting on more of a show than were his true feelings about Hitler and Jews. Again, in the “happily ever after” mode, I think the three of them, Liesel, the mayor and Ilsa, were able to live a pleasant life together.
I think the key thing that Ilsa said to Liesel when she visited and gave her the notebook her was on the top of page 524:
“And please,” Ilsa Hermann advised her, “don’t punish yourself, like you said you would. Don’t be like me, Liesel.”
I think Ilsa gave Liesel the gift of freedom that day --- freedom from guilt, freedom to pursue her writing, and unknown to both, freedom from Death.
-
Imagine how much better off Ilsa would have been had she recorded her thoughts and feelings in a notebook like the one she gave Liesel! Instead, she kept all of these emotions and feelings jumbled up inside - punishing herself as Laura points out in those those words of advice she gave to Liesel.
Wow, stories from Holocaust survivors. A bit more intense than the average German would have experienced after the war - one would think. Minus the guilt.
I checked - our library doesn't carry the title Small Miracles - is it a series with different book titles?
The white legs -(as white as a toilet bowl ;)) indicated fragility as Marcie points out. For the Mayor's wife, a Nazi wife, to brave it to come down unescorted to Himmel St. proves she felt vulnerable, but almost defiant, going to see Liesel. Her white legs also said that this woman had not seen daylight, sunlight for quite a long time, don't you think? The walk to Himmel St. indicated a change in Ilsa... As Laura says, Ilsa gave Liesel the gift of freedom that day - but it was reciprocal, wasn't it?
Babi suggests that the Mayor might have been pretending to be an ardent Nazi...to keep his position, perhaps? Hmmm, that doesn't explain why his wife is wearing those swastika slippers in the house, though, does it? Do you remember when Liesel came to the door to see his wife? He didn't send her away, but rather stepped aside and let her speak to his Ilsa. I thought that was uncharacteristic behavior for a man in his position.
-
Umm-porcelain legs...I see them as thin, translucent, and fragile--certainly not like a toilet bowl! Joan P. you are so right. This was an ugly glorious story. Life after war in a war torn country. You simply pick up the pieces and try to get on with living. Yet you are forever changed and parts of you remain broken for a long while--perhaps forever in some cases.
I don't know that this book taught me anything particularly new; but rather reinforced the idea that war is an evil thing. Why do we keep keeping on? Do we never learn from the past?
Sally
-
I believe it was JoanP who said:
Liesel brought life back into that house for Ilsa with her youth, with her daring and with her impetuous pranks, as she became more and more obsessed with books.
Isn't that the truth? I really liked her comment.
I am thrilled that our discussion has really sparked interest in some of the readers who had been offline for a while. Great to get such an interesting conversation going. I can hardly stay away from it.
I'm going to reread the last few chapters because when I read them, it was late at night and I probably missed a few things. Loved the book. 5++++++
-
Here is a link about TBT being made into a movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUMkbVA0NkM&NR=1
-
The discussion below that video does speak of a film coming out in 2012. The video itself seems to have been done by someone for an English project. It seems very good for a student project.
At http://movies.nytimes.com/movie/446969/The-Book-Thief/details there is info about the projected production credits. It lists Michael Petroni responsible for the screenplay. He wrote the screenplay for "Possession."
-
Marcie,
Thanks for the link from the New York Times movie review. However, I believe it's a different "Possession", not the one coming up for our book discussion. The blurb says the film is a thriller. ::)
-
Yikes, countrymm. I didn't follow the link for that Possession. LOL, it looks like a movie about two people in comas and one of them being possessed by the other's consciousness!! Thanks for clarifying. This may not bode well for the filming of The Book Thief :-(
-
I apologize for deserting you. The book was so intense for me that I had to step away for a while. I, too, cried toward the end, and felt a little like I’d been run over by a truck. But the rest of you said just about everything I thought of, so I wasn’t needed.
The one thing we haven’t touched on is an attitude of Death himself. He’s freaked out by the instinct for survival, and can’t come to terms with it. On page 5 he says
"It’s the leftover humans.
The survivors.
They’re the ones I can’t stand to look at…now and then, I witness the ones who are left behind, crumbling among the jigsaw puzzle of realization, despair, and surprise. They have punctured hearts. They have beaten lungs.
Which in turn brings me to the subject I am telling you about….one of those perpetual survivors—an expert at being left behind."
Death has fished out Liesel’s journal from the dump truck, and read and reread it until it’s falling apart, and it still haunts him. When he finally comes to take Liesel, he shows her the book. She asks if he understood it. He wants to say that he doesn’t see how humans can be at once so ugly and so glorious, but all he can say is:
"I am haunted by humans."
He’s puzzled by people clinging to life and goodness in the face of the inevitable.
So the book is really about the goodness of the human spirit in the face of the badness of the human spirit, and the will to survive in spite of everything.
-
I'm glad you came back, Pat, to share your thoughts about Death's point of view and what the book is about. I think you've captured that very well.
-
Joan, I think Small Miracles may be a series of books.
I was able to get it via interlibrary loan.
-
Guten Morgen, Alles!
We have a few days left - let's make the most of it - until we are all talked out. That might be difficult, because every time we pick up the book, we find more to discuss!
Laura, thanks for that information about "Small Miracles" - the story of Holocaust survivors. And we are still hoping that Traudee, finds some time to follow up with information on the post-war morale in Germany.
Countrymm - that was Andy who wrote of Liesel bringing life back into Ilsa's home and then becoming obsessed with her library. A really good observation.
-
Perhaps the mayor no longer had to show his Nazi loyalty (real or pretend) and that would make it more possible for Liesel to live with them.
Marcie, your observation above made me consider that having Liesel
with them would also make the mayor look good when the Allies arrived, no? Liesel was surely a comfort to Ilsa, but she may have been strategic policy to the mayor.
But we don't know; he could have been playing a role all through the
Nazi madness, to protect himself and his family. JOAN reminded me that he let Liesel in to see his wife. I believe he greatly loved his wife
and did whatever he could to comfort her. Since we are not told much
about him, I am choosing to read the clues to him as a good man doing
the best he could in a really bad situation.
-
Good morning, Babi! I agree with your assessment of the Mayor. I think we need to give him the benefit of the doubt. How many times did we see Liesel - and Hans for that matter, giving the "Heil Hitler" salute when their hearts weren't in it, just to avoid trouble. Considering his position, the Mayor had to appear to be with the party. What else could he do?
Marcie, I tried, but couldn't find the names of the cast in the New York Times link you provided. I was happy to see Markus Zusak's name mentioned prominently though. It just had to be - no screenplay writer should dare tamper with it.
There are several different trailers for the film around - don't know if this one has been posted before. I like it too because Death doesn't seem to have a narrator - but rather speaks in subtitles. That would make it easier to get the full impact of the story, I think - Death in subtitles, the narrator, Liesel, telling her story -
Book Thief - A movie trailer (http://www.allsubs.org/movie-trailer/The+Book+Thief+Trailer/VJ9vS212zU4)
PatH -it's really good to hear from you...I'm happy that you continued on - because, while upsetting, the end message can lift your spirits. That's a good description of the way I felt while reading it - as if run over by a truck. All the wind knocked out - but the need to go on was too great to just lie there in the road. Perhaps that's how Liesel felt following the Himmel St. bombing.
We needed to hear from you if only to hear that you weren't a casualty on the roadside. Plus you have brought up some very, very good points on Death and the leftover humans - the survivors.
There was so much truth tin Zusak's treatment of the survivors, wasn't there? (I think his parents must have impressed this on him with their stories.) Though Death is a fact of life, we are never really prepared for the loss of a loved one...puzzlement, despair and surprise, all part of it. "Punctured hearts" says it all.
You got right to the heart of what Zusak is saying - that people cling to life and goodness and the will to survive, no matter the circumstances. He's telling us how Liesel was able to go on after all she went through.
The other thing he said in this same context - that he finds himself unable to estimate human behavior - always UNDERESTIMATING or OVERESTIMATING. Isn't that the truth? In this story, we find humanity at its worst - and at its most glorious.
Sally - I really hope we learn from the past. Right now, it doesn't appear that way, does it? But the bright spot that we can take away from this story is the notion that the human spirit has the ability to survive and carry on. Let's not UNDERESTIMATE the survivors!
Glad you liked the book! So far no one has rated it below 5 stars.
-
JoanP, I too couldn't find a list of the cast for the upcoming film of "The Book Thief." I wonder if that is really a trailer from the film? The part of Max looked like Adrien Brody so I searched for him and found the trailer for "The Pianist." It looks like some of the shots from "The Book Thief" trailer come from "The Pianist." http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi988938521/
-
Marcie,
You are right. The actor is definitely Adrian Brody.
I did not see the film "The Pianist". Was it very depressing?
-
I didn't see The Pianist either.
-
JOANP, I have come to the conclusion that what we must learn from the past is that there will always be those whose greed, egoism and lust for power will rise to confront us. If we want peace, we must be prepared to face them promptly and firmly. I am seeing that lesson repeated in another discussion, "Troublesome Young Men".
I do want to say how much I appreciate the thoughtful work you and ALF have put into leading this discussion. The two of you offered insights
that were most helpful. Thank you both, so much.
-
Well that is very nice of you and I thank you, as well. I wish to thank all of our participants. YOU are what makes our site work and so enjoyable.
-
Thanks to both of our discussion leaders. I loved the book and the interaction we readers had with each other.
Signing off for now, but I'll catch you at a future discussion.
-
I thought this was a remarkable discussion, thanks to our fearless leaders JoanP and Andy, plus all the participants.
For me, this is an example of what SeniorLearn can accomplish. If it hadn't been in SL, I would probably never have read the book, certainly not like this. I would have zoomed through it, missing a lot. But everyone found different things in it, and together we got so much out of it.
It can't have been an easy discussion to lead, and for some of us, including me,it wasn't always easy to participate, but it sure was worth it.
Thanks to all.
-
Babi, yes, there will always be those whose greed, egoism and lust for power will rise to confront us - and sometimes overwhelm us, Hitler was the best example, but the human spirit has always pervailed - to confront the power and then to rebuild and carry on. Perhaps we can take heart from that.
Here's an example - do you know the name of this city?
(http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/kids/KPSH_E/hiroshima_e/sadako_e/subcontents_e/images_e/17_1.jpg)
Countrymm, Babi, PatH - all of you, THANK YOU! Andy said it all. It's all of you, taking the time from your busy days to share your views with us, that makes these discussions what they are. We hope to see you again in the near future.
-
JoanP and Andy, thank you so much for a wonderful discussion. I hate to see it end.
-
Dear Book Friends
I was on a trip nad had no access to the site. During the trip our beloved dog, Andy, age 18-yes eighteen- died. we had a hard time with this . When we got home we had just al few days to prepare for our Passover Seder for fifteen people. After that we had house guests and life became too crazy. All is finally approaching normalcy now.
I loved the book and the discussion. I thought a lot about the question :"Why is this book considered a Young Adult" book.
I came to the conclusion that it would be perfect for teenagers. They could learn a lot and also become more aware of the realities of WW2. There is a lot of love in the story , much hope and yes, reality. There is no explicit sex in its pages. In some ways the book is tender and innocent.
I thought of the books I read as a teenager-In school the tragedies of Shakespeare, Dicken's "A Tale of Two Cities", by Kafka "Metamorphisis" and on and on.
Young people today( and in my day too) are smarter, more aware and more mature than we give them credit for. This book may become a classic and rightly so.
And I am happy that this book was written!
Lest we forget-Lest we forget.
-
JoanP you went and changed the picture on me. I still don't know where it is.
JudeS, so sorry the hear about your dog. It IS tough when a beloved companion passes. I hope Andy went peacefully.
-
Mercy!!! I just lost a long post and am unable to retrieve it. Worse, I have no idea what caused mthis ishap.
So without recapitulating let me come to the point = the book.
A friend lent me the book late last month and I tried to catch up with the march of the Jews through Molching, which had been mentioned in the posts and I had questioned. Sure enough, it was right there in the book, and THAT is where I stopped reading. In my experience - which I had related before more than once - no such march would have been possible at that time, let alone three.
Point two, nobody would have dared to "stand up" to the Gestapo ( - as good as that term sounds and is oh so reminiscent of "bring it on"). All I can say is that I was there, the author was not.
Point three, I never saw or heard of "rich" Germans. If indeed they existed, they might only have been Nazi functionaries. The notion sounds absurd to me.
Re a recent question : there would be no book without Liesel. She IS the book, the raison d'être for it.
IMHO the male characters are credible and convincing. Not so the females IMHO, except Liesel, of course. Rosa is a caricature, impossible (for me) to imagine as a real person. Her constant spouting of expletives is illogical, unreasonable, perhaps pathological.
What or whom was Markus Zusak possibly trying to portray? Some stereotype?
I believe the thirty-something Zusak wrote the book as a primer for young adults as a warning, so that nothing like this would ever happen again--- after all, their elders already knew all about the Holocaust!
Moreover, I too felt there are elements in the book that are "a bit much": what the French inimitably call "de trop".
As for the movie, I can see it now - especially the people in air raid shelters or bunkers, with bombs falling, the bunker shaking from impacts nearby. I have experiened iti n 1943.
But all these years later I'm still here, the sun as shining today in Mass,., and in Washingnton, the cherry blossoms are in full bloom, right on time. How I wish I were there ...
Please ignore any typos. Blame my macular degeneration.
But why on earth are we still so fascinated with evil and dark forces? Isn't there enough excitement in our own lives?
Did you notice there's a nw Italian movie out here, with English subtitles, titled Vincere ?
The accent would be on the "i" and the vowel would soundlike "in". It's about Mussolini as a young man before he became the"Duce".
As for what happened to the defeated Gemany, Google will provide all the details. When I returned there after my exile and survival in late 1947, things were still grim.
Many thanks to Andy and JoanP for your guidance.
-
Traude- you have been a valuable resource for us during this discussion and I know how difficult this must have been for you. You must relive the horrors of that part of your life.
I would like to ask one question however. I am not questioning YOU, I am questioning my own beliefs. Point three, I never saw or heard of "rich" Germans. If indeed they existed, they might only have been Nazi functionaries. The notion sounds absurd to me.
I was under the impression that the Nazi soldiers and those "at the top" made off with millions of dollars worth of jewels, gems, paintings and expensive artifacts. Is this not so?
I do believe you when you say that noone would have dared to stand up to the Gestapo. Their fear was genuine and I am certain that the majority felt let us just follow their commands and this might "blow over" soon.
again, thank you Traudee.
-
I see I'm just in time to thank everyone for this great discussion.
I read TBT three times not long after it was first published -my cover has the Grim Reaper and the splashes of red and I can't imagine any other being suitable. - Like ALF I fell in love with every aspect of this book. When I reread the early part of it for this discussion I was surprised at how clearly the detail came back. So great was its impact that I was physically unable to continue reading it . So I have not read it again this time but the impressions implanted in my mind are still so clear and strong that it all comes back as I read the posts. And believe me it has been hard to read the posts as well let alone comment as we went along.
As Traudee points out it is not a realistic portrayal of the horror but in my view it is an important book in that it is a retelling of the story for a new generation some of whom in the future will seek out factual historical work or other fictional works in search of what really happened. And if Zusak's TBT is instrumental in making that happen then it has served a fine purpose - Lest We Forget
I don't think Leisel and Max married - thousands of displaced persons came to Australia after WWII and I believe both sides of Zusak's family were among them - I seem to recall that Zusak's mother was only six years old when the war ended. I think we should give Zusak credit for creating fictional characters - after all, it is a work of fiction - and not place too much emphasis on possible biographical aspects which he seems to deny whilst admitting that his mother told him stories of the period -but they were not necessarily stories of things she had actually experienced but those she knew about.
Zusak's (why can't I think of him as Markus?) understated writing style had lots of gems - not only those one liners - but in the characterisations too - Many were real, Hans, Max, Rudy - but the one who really got to me was Ilsa Herman, the mayor's wife who was such a tragic figure - the scene where she sits in the library watching Leisel lying on the floor looking at the books is so understated and so poignant and full of the force of unspoken tragedy. I cared about that woman - describing her legs as porcelain was a superb piece of understated symbolism in that the legs (read Ilsa) were finally exposed to the light - frail and white and fragile but braving the world - just as Ilsa is herself.
As an Aussie it has touched me quite strangely that an Aussie writer has elicited such positive responses from most in this discussion. Another part of me says writers aren't Aussies or Brits or Yanks or Africans - they're just writers and shouldn't be judged by their nationality or background - just by their writing and what they have to say. But I'm glad most of you liked this Aussie 'surfer boy' - his earlier work written for Young Adults was very well received - I hope his future writing will come up to expectations.
Maybe Tim Winton's Cloudstreet could be a contender for a future discussion ? Tim really was (and is) a genuine Aussie surfer boy - loves the surf, fishing, boating and can often been found in a local surf club drinking coffee after his dip in the briny. And they're currently making a film of 'Cloudstreet' - he's a different kind of writer but can do Aussie understatement to perfection.
Thanks to JoanP and ALF for their flawless performance as DLs. Love you both more each time. Thanks also to all contributors - how good it is to be part of such a great group.
-
Gum, so well put - so eloquently put. I found myself shaking my head in agreement with just about ALL that you said. I'm with you on Ilsa - though I never suffered the traumatic experience that she did, I felt I knew her. Do you think we were able to relate to her circumstance so well because she was an older woman?
Traudee, I did not see Rosa as a stereotype - though I never did understand what caused the change in her from the time she and Hans first married, on some level, I felt I could relate to her too...without understanding. Some just have a hard time putting their feelings in words. Liesel understood her, without knowing why she did.
Jude, how sad for you - I have experienced what you have gone through losing your old dog, your old friend. You're never prepared for the loss, though you know it's coming. Do you plan to get another dog any time soon?
I agree with you, Jude - young people can learn much history from this book - actually the book should serve as a catalyst to learn more about this period in history that they know nothing about. Traudee feels that Markus Zusak wrote this book for young people - although he says no. Apparently the American publisher agrees with you, Traudee.
I think Lisa Zusak was six years old when the war started, wasn't she? So she would have come away with some memories - seen through the eyes of a child, of course. The author seems pretty firm on the fact that his mother saw a man give bread to a Jew who was walking though her town - and the man was beaten for it. She told her son this story many times - lest he forget. This scene was said to be his inspiration for the book.
-
Thank you so much for taking the time to think back to the "grim" period in Germany following the war, Traudee. I realize it was thoughtless of me to ask you to do that. I am happy that you seem to have gone ahead, leaving the events of the war in the past - you are an example of the indominatability of the human spirit. and yes, the cherry blossoms too survived the brutal winter we had and have come back more splendid than ever!
Something to try when you next lose a post - and believe me, it will happen - right click your mouse and see if you see "Undo" - usually the first prompt on the list. If you click "undo" you might get the whole thing back...
After sons and wives left this afternoon, I sat for a while and paged through a book I intend to start to read more carefully tonight. (618 pages!) Bruce recommended it when I was talking to him about The Book Thief and Traudee's reaction to what she read. The book is called "After the Reich - The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation" by Giles MacDonogh. The author is a Brit - this book is heavily researched and footnoted. It seems quite balanced - by that I mean he has bad things to say about the American liberators as well as the Russians! Well, maybe not that bad, but some real atrocities were committed against the SS guards in Dachau and other camps after the war - beheadings and the like. Terrible things I'm not going to write here on Easter Sunday!
From what I gather from a surface reading - the conditions in Germany following the German defeat and the liberation of the camps can be summed up in one word - CHAOS. I'll let you know more -but the blackmarket and the railway stations seem to have been an important part in the German survival after the war.
Not only can't I refer to the author as Markus, I can't call him Zusak either. Gum, why not put Tim Winton's Cloudstreet in the Suggestion Box (yes, we're starting another nomination period) - I'll find a link to a review for it. I'm up for more of that Aussie understatement!
Again, THANKS EVERYONE for all your comments! What a rewarding experience this has been...and one that will keep on going after we have put our books back on the shelf.
-
Frybabe/Margie - haven't forgotten you - Sorry to leave you hanging...
Yesterday we were talking about the human spirit and its ability to confront evil and then to rebuild and carry on. Here's one example of this spirit -
(http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/kids/KPSH_E/hiroshima_e/sadako_e/subcontents_e/images_e/17_1.jpg)
The name of this beautiful city is - HIROSHIMA!
-
JoanP and Andy,
Please allow me to add a few more comments on the latest posts - tomorrow. Forgive me , but I can't manage it tonight. Thank you.
-
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
The Book Thief - March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/bookthief/bookthiefdominocvr.jpg) | "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)
"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)
|
Some Questions for Your Consideration
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief); EPILOGUE
1. Do you think the story would have been different if Liesel didn't keep having nightmares about her brother? Did you understand why she stopped dreaming about him after she returned the cookie plate to Ilsa Hermann?
2. What brought Ilsa Hermann down to 33 Himmel St? Why did she give the lined notebook to Liesel? What was her warning to Liesel?
3. Liesel wrote a book that was divided into 10 parts, each telling of how books and stories affected her life. Liesel is the author of this book then?
4. How does Liesel answer Rudy when he asks her how it feels to steal a book? Is her answer the reason he left the teddy bear with the dying pilot? (Why had he packed that teddy bear in his toolbox?)
5. Did you notice Death's explanation why he has been offering us a glimpse of the end before it actually happens?
6. Was Liesel ready to die when she joined Max in the road? How did Rudy save her? After she told him about Max, was it significant that he didn't kiss her then?
7. Why did Death carry Rudy's soul "with a salty eye and a heavy heart"? Rudy got to him. Can these be Liesel's thoughts? Why did she later tell Rudy's father that she had kissed him?
8. Now how did Liesel get to Sydney? What happened to Max? Dare we imagine they went together? Can you find a reason to support this?
9.. Death meets Liesel on her last day and wants to tell her about the beauty and the brutality of war. Do you think she knows this already? Did you see beauty in this story?
10. Everything considered, how would you rate this book on a scale of 1 * - 5 ***** What will you remember about this book?. Would you recommend it to a friend? To a teenager?
Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I -X; (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/BookThief_Zusak.html) A Brief History of German Rule; (http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/de.htm) Dachau; (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005214) Mein Kampf; (http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/) The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions; (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Andy (mailto:WFLANNERY@CFL.RR.COM)
-
Thank you very much, Joan and Andy, for your thoughtful leadership of this discussion. I am very glad to have read this book and I learned a lot from you and the other participants. I look forward to more discussions!
-
I too echo my thanks Joan & Andy-so many insights, much more to consider with all the input....makes the book much more dimensional to me. I have enjoyed following all the discussion...
Deb
-
JOANP, Hiroshima is beautiful. I'm so glad. That is one bomb we should never have dropped.
We could have demonstrated it's effectiveness just as well on some desert island, IMO.
-
Thank you everyone for a great discussion, especially Joan and Alf for leading. Everyone had thoughtful contributions, all of which I enjoyed reading. I especially enjoyed it when we didn't all agree on things! ;)
-
Again, I apologize for not writing yesterday. I was ill y and missed a rare Easter gathering of family and friends.
The weather and my arthritis are directly responsible.
Massachusetts had more than two weeks of heavy rains, which caused the rivers to overflow including the Charles that divides Boston and Cambridge; inundations in many areas, and evacuations. The Governor declared the state of emergency, and last week the President was briefly in Boston to thank the Emergency Management people. The sun reappeared on Friday. My arthritis was did not immediateely take notice. >:(
As I said last night, I feel the need to make a few additional comments, and answer Andy's question in # 434 about the art theft in WW II.
Andy, it began years earlier, in 1933, to be precise, with the systematic expropriation of the Jews, see
http://www.edwardvictor.com/Holocaust/Expropriation.htm
In WW II, it might have started in France, in 1940. The ordinary soldiers probably helped themselves to some trinkets. But in the benighted secrecy in which we lived, we did not hear about the systematic, organized plundering of European art undertaken by the highest bosses, including H. himself. The web has a great deal of information, which is to be welcomed. Actually, I read on the web something I never knew : that the Mass Murderer planned to build a museum in the town of his birth, Linz in Austria, and got busy "collecting" early. Who would have known then?
Wars have been fought even before history was recorded. To the victor go the spoils, as in the days of Homer's Iliad, when the winner's bounty often included a female slave from the vanquished enemy camp. And later, in the Holy Roman Empire, all participating states - often represented by mercenaries as proxy, - divvied up the bounty. For instance in 1571, after the battle of Lepanto was won under the commnd of 24-year old Juan of Austria, an illegitimate son of Emperor Charles V.. and both the crown and the church got their bounty.
Similarly, in 1944, the Red Army steam-rolled westward toward Germany, overrunning Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and other eastern nations, and untold numbers of civilians fled ahead of them, taking with them only what they could carry. Russian soldiers were feared and notorious for raping girls and women. Many hailed from remote rural regions and were delighted to see water coming out of faucets. They became also fond of watches, demanding them, and proudly displaying several of them on one arm. It is unlikely that during their relentless drive to reach Berlin they would have had time to look for art or known what to look for. But somehow precious bibles, tapestries and paintings found their way into Russia. Not all have been returned, as reported on the web.
On the other hand, the GI's advancing through Italy northward, and eastward through France, were welcomed and popular. They brought chewing gum, chocolate and Lucky Strike cigarettes. whole cartons of them! It is understandable that they would pick up Nazi memorabilia. They were known also for liking fine china, and had the money to pay for it. However acquired, German and European treasures turned up also in the U.S. Some were returned voluntarily. Reports to that effect have appeared in the press over the decades.
Moreover, there are ongoing efforts to bring about the return of Jewish property, taken more than six decades ago. It is one result of wars.
Or think of the Elgin Marbles, carried off from Athens by the truckload by at the behest of the British Ambassador to Constantinople, Lord Elgin. Or more recently of the looting in the Iraq war.
JoanP, you asked about the morale. Well, by the end of 1944 the people were tired, hungry,dejected, exhausted. No one talked about the "final victory". When 14-year-old boys and old men are urged to pick up a weapon or, short of a weapon, a shovel or a dung-fork, nobody needs to be told that the war is lost.
The truth became known slowly, in bits and pieces. In those May days, the best source of information was the Swiss weekly Die Weltwoche (world week). I subscribed to the paper edition for decades. Nowadays I read it on line. The extent, the scale of the atrocities was stupefying, numbing, beyond anything imaginabable.
The Germans will probably be haunted by the Holocaust forever. But hey did write the most liberal immigration laws, and the country has become a haven for asylum seekers.
In sum, information, knowledge, transparency, truth are the keys. It is important to be aware of what goes on in the world. The Holocaust must not, will not be forgotten thanks to books like Markus Zusak's The Book Thief. I have read only part of it because the terrain is still painful for me. But I have fulfilled my promise and contributed to the discussion what I could, honestly and forthrightly, based on my experience and my rmemory.
Many thanks again to JoanP, Andy and all participants.
P.S. Jude, I am sorry you lost your loyal canine companion and have a good idea how you feel.
-
Thank you again Traudee for your succinct answers to my questions. I appreciate your responses and your time.
To all- i thank you once again for this wonderful discussion.
AND- I bow to my "slave driver" and kind mentor- JoanP. ::)
-
How can we thank you enough for digging into those images stored in your mind, Traudee. A sober reminder that war is hell - for everyone, including the survivors. Especially the survivors.
To think that one man was able to hypnotize an entire nation to follow his desire for a supreme race.
The gifted Markus Zusak's has stimulated our minds and emotions with his glorious writing, based on one of the most atrocious periods in history. As you have noted in your posts, this is an important book to pass on to the next generation. Lest they forget.
Thanks again, Andy, and everyone, for your contributions to this discussion. We look forward to future discussions~
-
Thank you JoanP and Andy for this discussion. Thank you Traude for al you added to the discussion. I throughly enjoyed the discussion and am glad that I was able to be a little part of the discussion. I got so much more out of the book because I missed alot of things in my readings of the book.
I still do not believe that Liesel and Max married. Liesel was a very childlike character. She was to immature to be thinking about such things.
The book was beautifully written. Joan Grimes
-
This discussion is locked and will be archived in a few days.