Author Topic: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online  (Read 60212 times)

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2009, 10:39:53 PM »


The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.


Three Cups of Tea
by
Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin


"The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author.  "The second time, you are an honored guest.  The third time you become family." ~ Three  Cups of Tea
______________
Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides.  This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine


Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage.
Ignorance -- the Real Enemy.
Synopsis and Biography.
Readers' Guide by the Author.
K2 Mountain.
--
Discussion Schedule
  • May 1 - 7         Chapters 1 - 6
  • May 8 - 14       Chapters 7 - 12
  • May 15 - 21      Chapters 13 - 18
  • May 22 - 31      Chapters 19 - End

.1.  What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation?  Has anything similar happened in your own life?

2.  Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend?

3.  At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time,  etc.
.

Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43), JoanK & Pedln






pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2009, 10:41:04 PM »
Joan, we’re glad you’re fixed up and back in action.  I don’t think the area (Waziristan) is the same as the Swat Valley, but close.  The area where Greg went from Peshawar is south from Peshawar and west of Islamabad.  There may be some overlap.

Good point about the tribal governments vs. the National Govt.  It certainly makes us realize how little WE know about the governing of countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan.  (And what is the meaning of “stan”?)

a house in the Waziristan area   

It is so ironic that Greg’s only reading material during his eight day ordeal was the old Time magazine with the Iran Hostage story.  My guess is that it had  significance for these people and that was why it was kept.  That was a very strange week.  The Good Housekeeping article says Greg befriended his captors.  I’m not sure that’s the word I would use.  Befriended how?  By pretending to read the Koran, by telling about the upcoming birth of his child, by being calm and cool?  One can’t help but wonder why they chose to release him.

And what about the soccer game?  Was it to impress him?  They practically made him the guest of honor>

A very interesting chapter, indeed.

This is a story found while exploring the Peshawar/Waziristan area of Google earth.  A human interest story that tells us more about the people of the area.

The Girl in the Photo




Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2009, 10:37:14 AM »
"Education," it is said, is the light in the eye. There is no such light for her. It is possibly too late for her 13-year-old daughter as well, Sharbat Gula said."  (Pedln's link to the girl in the photo - National Geographic)

Can we even begin to understand - really understand - the life of Khanom Sharbat?  As a young Pashtuni, later as a new bride, and soon thereafter as the mother of several daughters, living separated from her husband for many months of the year.  The enormous challenges she faced may seem insurmountable to Westerners, but they are common - oh, so very common - to the rural people of Central Asia.  Their strengths in many of life's challenges must certainly come from their heart-felt beliefs - "she rises before dawn to pray."  Their moments of pleasure, comfort and safety are often few and far between, considering the generations of invasions by foreigners into their homelands and desperate poverty - "he (Khanom Sharbat's husband) earns a dollar a day."

Yet this is a woman who hopes her daughters will have an opportunity for education.  She has given up hoping that for herself and perhaps for her teenagers, but there is always hope for the others.

Thanks for the links, PEDLN.  To answer your question, "stan" refers to an ancient Persian (Farsi) word, which means "homeland of." So in the context of Afghanistan,  it refers to the "homeland of the Afghans."  And to be more precise about tribal affiliation, a native would identify themselves as a Pashtun (also spelled Pushtoon occasionally), usually from the North.  The Hazaras (easily recognized by their Asian slanted eyes) are from the South, but reside throughout the country.  I've never met a Pashtun (male or female) who didn't have the piercing eyes similar to Khanom Sharbat's.  When they smile, their eyes are marvelously friendly; when they are upset, they are fierce!

Last night, as I watched Bill Moyers' program "The Journal" on PBS, I thought about how much we don't understand about the breadth of issues involved with Afghanistan and Pakistan.  His guests spoke from personal experience about what Washington and Westerners in general, as well as Russians and other country leaders who have tried to interact with the Central Asian countries do not understand - historically, culturally, politically - especially about the vast ungoverned area between the two countries.  Here's a link to the program:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/

Mahlia

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2009, 12:08:55 PM »
Quote
I think we are trying to deal according to our Western notions of "Nation" in an area where this idea has limited meaning.

  I think you are 100% correct, JoanK.  Relin, and Mahlia, have made it clear that these 'nations' are basically a hodgepodge of tribal peoples.  They think of themselves primarily as members of a tribe, not citizens of a nation.

  Hint, hint.  Greg Mortenson is  ‘very different’ from other Europeans.  “He made no demands for good food and environment,  He ate whatever my mother put before him and slept together with us in the smoke like a Balti..”  These were considered ‘excellent manners’.  Moreover, Dr. Greg  ‘never tells a lie’.  The stress on this makes me wonder.  Does it emphasize the importance of telling the truth, or reveal a surprise at meeting someone who doesn't lie?  :-\

   More excellent advice from Haji Ali. One would think it  obvious,   yet apparently, those desiring to benefit others seldom think of it.   He proposed quite simply that Mortenson leave the selection of  school sites to the Baltis. Their elders could meet with the elders of the other villages and see which ones were prepared to donate land for a school and labor to help build one. They could do with one meeting what would take Mortenson months of travel, tea drinking and discussion to accomplish.

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: May 16, 2009, 12:43:28 PM »
BABI - excellent point about leaving decisions to the elders of various clans.  Less time consuming, a more comfortable and easily understood gathering and one in which decisions can be made by the people (the elders) who are accustomed to making them.  Whereas in the West, we are accustomed to the logistical coordination (or lack thereof) of creating a Board, then sub-divisions among the Board members, then advisory committees to work with the former and present their information for the top representatives (the Board), the villagers and their neighboring elders would find this Western system ridiculous, too time consuming, and wasteful.  (Think of the recent blow-up of the United Way top leadership and the enormous decrease in contributions of time and treasure that resulted.)

My sense of GM from the book and several articles I've read about him, as well as a couple of TV interviews in recent years, is that he is by nature a fairly calm guy, but can become intense when he is truly interested in a project.  I'm grateful for fellows like GM, especially for their efforts in regions like Central Asia, especially where he's learned to "go-with-the-flow" of native customs - especially in respecting the elders -  while at the same time "working the lines" in the West to provide funding and supplies to accomplish his goals.

My son's family has been reading this book - the grand kids also read "Listen to the Wind" - and have gotten some positive response from their new friends in the USA about contributing to Mortenson's efforts.  I'm going to follow up tomorrow at a local church where I attend Adult SS, as we recognize the contributions of Veterans and active duty military personnel for Armed Forces Day (today).

Mahlia

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: May 16, 2009, 03:01:30 PM »
The May 25th issue of Time Magazine has an article on How Pakistan Failed Itself, "beset by feckless leadership and a muddled sense of identity, the country is now plunging into chaos.  Why a culture of blame is helping the extremists win."

An interesting thought which I had never considered is their resentment toward the United States and their belief that we are fueled by political motives.  We are blamed for the militants being in the tribal areas and believe if they stopped supporting the Americans in Afghanistan   they would automatically be granted peace.
You can't really blame them because of our support of Musharraf and our rapid withdrawal in Afghanistan after the Soviet war.  It left Pakistan in chaos. Babi- where are the elders now?  Do you think they are in hiding?  As Mahlia asks "Can we ever begin to understand?"

As in any war, the facts can be weighed for either side of the argument.

Fortunately Mortenson was well loved for his efforts.   
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2009, 03:31:47 PM »
At the same time that we in the West are trying to better understand the tribal areas of Central Asia, we must also remember - REALLY remember - that Afghanistan and Pakistan are quite different countries. 

For example, Pakistan has a substantial population of well educated (university level) women, many of whom are in the Government Service or have chosen careers as attorneys, doctors, scientists, bankers, etc.  In their own right as a result of their own intelligence, education and employment efforts, they are well-to-do financially.  This is NOT the case in Afghanistan!  This point of understanding was made abundantly clear in last night's Bill Moyers program "The Journal" in which the guests spoke specifically about the West NOT understanding the cultural differences between Afghanistan and Pakistan.  The lack of understanding, according to the speakers, reaches from the White House and Pentagon all the way down to the newest U.S. Army recruit serving as part of the American "boots on the ground."

The late Benazir Bhutto was from a  family who had multigenerational substantial interests in developing the country (and the financial means to contribute to that goal). Women's intelligence was respected, encouraged and developed.  Thus, it was natural for her to seek public office after her father died.  The same type of family encouragement was the basis of the late Indira Ghandi's efforts in India.

It's also interesting to note that for GM, his focus was on building a school (and later multiple schools), while at the same time utilizing his calm manner and seemingly disinterest in his own personal comfort - how many of us have slept in an enclosed space with strangers quite different from ourselves in culture and language in the midst of smoke from cooking fires?  Raise your hands!

I like to think that GM is a stellar example of what CAN take place to help others less fortunate at the same that government officials (ours and theirs) are fighting with each other, accusing each other and demanding a hearing about who knew what/when about water boarding.  He and his family are my kind of folks!

Mahlia

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2009, 09:27:23 AM »
 This vignette really sums up Greg Mortenson, doesn’t it?  There is a big celebration on the opening of  Korphe’s school, and everyone of importance, including the visiting dignitaries who had nothing to do with it, make long speeches.  All except Mortenson, who happily stands in the background bouncing a baby.   There does not seem to be a shred of self-aggrandizement in this man.

 Parvi, in testifying to Mortenson’s respectability,  said he would never “Eve-tease’ any of the girls.  I assume ‘Eve’ here refers to the first Eve,  but is meant by ‘Eve-tease’ , I wonder?   MAHLIA,  can you answer that one for me?

 The Red Velvet Box, with the endorsement of  the highest  religious council in the country,  addressing Mortenson as  “Dear Compassionate of the Poor”.   What a wonderful accolade.  I would think the addressee would treasure that document all his life.


"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2009, 12:52:11 PM »
BABI - in the colloquial, it refers to boys or young men sexually harassing girls in a verbal manner either when they see them going about their regular chores or perhaps walking along a pathway or - perhaps - if the males are being really aggressive, as the girls are accompanied only by another girl or woman, NOT a male member of their own family. 

Mahlia

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2009, 01:00:57 PM »
Can you imagine how proud Mortenson's mother and wife felt experiencing the entourage of dignitaries who were there for the opening day?

How sad that Jean Hoerni wasn't able to make this day but was there in spirit as they honored his ashes.

Is that true what was written in Red Velvet Box that
Quote
"the Holy Koran tells us all children should receive education, including our daughters and sisters?"

That shocks me.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

JoanK

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 8685
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2009, 02:27:23 PM »
Why does it shock you? We all know from personal experience that different people interpret the Bible in different ways. Why shouldn't that be true of the Koran as well?

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2009, 07:11:01 PM »
It shocks me that that is their written word about educating the children and that is what they do NOT do.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

fairanna

  • Posts: 263
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2009, 08:59:42 PM »
OOPS I just hit undo  ..didnt know there was such a place on my keyboard  I was saying I really enjoy reading the posts ..it helps to give insight to what we are all reading...it seems like for every step forward Mortenson takes forward he has to take two back....to me it shows him as a very uniqiue person ...I  feel for him and all those who are hoping to build that school ...I may have mentioned this before but I wrote a poem to parents once that asked them to arm thier chidren with knowledge ...and I also wrote a poem about Afghan women ...
When I think of the freedom I had as a child and as an adult and even now I  feel real sadness for the generations of women who had none..back to my reading...

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2009, 09:17:19 PM »
Before I say anything about the book, I'm sorry to say that JoanK's computer is acting up again, and she doesn't know when she'll be back online.  At the moment, I'm staying in Pasadena with daughter Suzi, SIL Matt, and new grandson Matt, a very wired household, but if Matt hasn't managed to get her back online by the time I move to Joan's in Torrance, I'll be offline too.  To be continued.

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2009, 10:56:56 PM »
PAT - how about suggesting to Joan that she drop in at her neighborhood Library to check in with this discussion occasionally from the public computers there?  That might help to keep her (and you once you arrive in Torrance) in touch with the discussion.  I used to live in the area as a teenager - Downey, CA, actually, so when I read the word Torrance, I had to smile.

ALF - Here is a link that will give you some information about educating women in the early years of Islam, especially as it pertained to the wives of the Prophet Muhammad and how important they were in their communities, in business and education endeavors.

http://www.helpinghandsworldwide.com/WomenEmpowerment-1.aspx.htm

As you mentioned that you were "shocked" about the lack of education for females,  may I mention that there are numerous Muslimas world-wide who ARE educated, just as there are numerous ones who are not.  Family traditions (and the literacy of the parents and their home communities, residents, and overall cultural beliefs, NOT just religion) play a major role in the educational factor.  The same would be true almost anywhere int he world, even in the USA.  (Think Appalachia!)

Although GM's book focuses on the Northern rural areas of great poverty and illiteracy, we must remember that in Pakistan particularly (less so in Afghanistan), there is a substantial, well-to-do urban middle-class population, which includes numerous educated and professionally successful women.  Many of these women work hard to bring about a better education and life-style to the rural communities.

FAIRANNA - any chance you could post the poem you wrote about Afghan women here so that we could enjoy it with you?

Mahlia

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: May 18, 2009, 01:40:12 AM »
Pedlin, thanks for the article about the Pashtun woman on the National Geographic cover.  I saw the picture at the time, and indeed, it haunted me, and I have thought of it a few times since.

Good idea, Mahlia, Joan's Library is miniscule, but I bet they have at least one computer.  She is quite close to the epicenter of tonight's magnitude 5.0 earthquake, but is unhurt.  Things shook a lot, though.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: May 18, 2009, 02:05:46 AM »
Mortenson's nursing training certainly stood him in good stead in winning the confidence of the villagers, but I think he also was rather lucky.  Look at Ibrahim's wife Rokia, septic from an undelivered placenta.  From the description of her condition by the time Mortenson extracted the placenta, would you think she had a good chance?  Of course it was amazing he got to treat her at all; it was only because of the trust he had earned that Ibraham could let him touch Rokia.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: May 18, 2009, 02:13:18 AM »
His compassion as a nurse is shown in his care of the dying Hoerni, serving as nurse round the clock and helping him with his last requests.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: May 18, 2009, 07:52:08 AM »
  When survival is a struggle, it is amazing what a difference a seemingly simple thing can make.   Digging a pipeline to a distant village cut infant mortality rate in half.   Then, one young girl successfully gaining an education changes the thinking of the women throughout the Hushe Valley.  A woman could do it and have a different kind of  life, if she chose.
 Her father was an intelligent far-sighted man, who respected the intelligence he saw in his daughter.   It made a significant difference for his people.

   I note the curriculum for the CAI schools eschews the  “ ‘comparative cultures’ classes then so  popular with the West”. Apparently these classes  were seen as anti-Islamic by many of the religious leaders.   Perhaps Western educators saw them as a clever way to promote our own culture among the children of Central Asia.  I would have to see a sample of those ‘comparative cultures’ lessons to really know.  It makes sense to me that all children should learn something of the ways of other peoples; we certainly try to teach that here in America.  Put if they really are an attempt to “teach Pakistan’s children to think like Americans”, then I can understand the objection to them. 

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: May 18, 2009, 09:48:08 AM »
BABI - you make an excellent point in your last sentence RE teaching Pakistan's children to think like Americans.  It reminds me - again - of the recent PBS program ("We Shall Remain") about the history of the uprooting of the Native American tribes (especially the Eastern Cherokee and Apaches) from their homelands in the USA and forced relocation (especially the children to Western style schools).  The purpose being, of course, to "Americanize" the Indian children and youth, force their native customs to disappear (including their clothes, hairstyles, food preferences, language usage and family traditions).

I am also reminded of the enormous force which the British forced on the people of Central and South Asia (especially India) with the same expectations.  Then Ma'hatma Ghandi responded, standing up for the local customs.  Although not native to Central Asia, Mortenson and his efforts for the locals reminds me often of Ghandi.

Mahlia

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: May 18, 2009, 11:30:59 AM »
Mahlia- re. Americanization

Since a little child I have always loved the Indian stories and unlike Babi who knows her roots are with the Cherokees I have always wondered which tribe does my family tree grow?

Economics and industry came into our nation when the Indians were alreay settled here and we soon replaced their buffalo, gobbled up their lands and mineral rights, reshaped their lands and   diminished their resources.  Is it for the better?  The tribes don't think so and are now insisting that we honor our promises made in 371 active treaties.  Some of these even predate the Constitution.  In those days arguments were settled with bows, arrows and peace offerings but today they use science and the law.In time to come will it be the same in Pakistan, Afghanistan and many African countries?

Our trying to help frightens me much of the time.  These binding partnerships, expanding globally explode when conflicts arise and the "presumption" of rights are questioned.

Thank you Mahlia for the link.  Truly I had no clue as to the participation in the economic, social and political spheres in the Islamic history.  What the heck happened?

PatH- thanks for the word on Joan.  She's had a heck of a time with that computer.  I hope that she will be able to get in here before we finish our discussion.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

fairanna

  • Posts: 263
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: May 18, 2009, 11:42:36 AM »
As requested from Persian I wrote this after seeing a picture and an article explaning what was going on...Does the Koran really demean women ? It is hard for me to believe any religeous belief would do so...I  dont know but I was so moved by the picture I wrote the poem ...


Who do I turn to the Afghan woman cried,
Does Allah only love men?
Is my destiny just to die,
Shut away from everything and everyone.
Stifled both in my gown and in my speech,
My teaching abilities hidden and out of reach.
For other females just like me,
No male doctor can treat me when I am ill.
All the female doctors are like me
Hidden, lost and still..
Why am I stoned or beaten with sticks,
Because I meekly try to obey the rules?
Which each day seem more repressive
And my thoughts turn to suicide.
Allah! Allah! I love you.
Lift me up and bring me close.
Hear my plea...Please let me be.
All my dreams are saved for thee.
Let me feel the sun warm upon my cheek,
Let me feel the caring I desperately seek.
Oh Allah ! Allah! Hear, Please Hear..

anna alexander
10/12/2001
©

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: May 18, 2009, 11:44:12 AM »
Even if the comparative culture lessons were harmless (and I bet they weren't) they would surely be perceived suspiciously, as an attempt at indoctrination, so Mortenson was very wise to leave them out.  Throughout, he takes great care to show he is not trying to change anyone's religion or culture, but only to give them the kind of chance at a decent life they ought to have.

"I don't want to teach Pakistan's children to think like Americans, I just want them to have a balanced, nonextremist education.  That idea is at the very center of what we do."

It's brilliant to match the curriculum to that of the government schools.  He's only giving the people exactly what they have a right to expect from their own government.

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: May 18, 2009, 11:46:55 AM »
Oh Anna- thank you.  that is such a moving poem.  As usual, your heart is right out there capturing the essence of sorrow (or joy, which ever it might be.)

Quote
Lift me up and bring me close.
Hear my plea...Please let me be.
   

I agree with you Pat, Mortenson said it well.       


Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: May 18, 2009, 11:48:23 AM »
Wow, Anna, thanks for posting that very moving poem.

trlee

  • Posts: 9
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: May 18, 2009, 08:23:32 PM »

It's amazing what wonderful things happen in our lives when we are "lost."  My husband and I often drive places and get lost (it's a little better since we got a GPS) We've discovered some fascinating things that we never knew existed.

It was great that Greg found this village when he made a "wrong turn in life's road"  It led him to a whole new purpose for being.  His family had set the stage for him to build this school.  They were a very inspirational group.

I have developed a very warm spot in my heart for this "gentle giant" of a man with size l4 shoes.  He seems to affect the people that he encounters in the same way.  They all seem eager to help him with his goal.  So refreshing.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: May 18, 2009, 09:09:00 PM »

Welcome, trlee

Quote
It's amazing what wonderful things happen in our lives when we are "lost."  My husband and I often drive places and get lost (it's a little better since we got a GPS) We've discovered some fascinating things that we never knew existed.

Being lost can be fun and exciting, but we’re glad you found us here.  The more I read and learn about Greg Mortenson, the more I am awed by his remarkableness.

Mahlia, thanks for pointing out to us the differences between Pakistan and Afghanistan.  I know that I tend to lump many Middle Eastern countries together, and one thing this book ( and many of you) have shown is that among small groups there can be big differences.  But if we can barely discern the differences between two countries, how do we understand, for instance, the problems between Shia and Sunni Muslims.

Re: The Red Box – I guess what shocked me was that the top word about the fatwa came from Iran. Am I wrong to assume then, that this is a religious tie and not a politcal one?

Anna, what a wonderful lovely poem.  Thank you.

PatH – Earthquake?  Today?  And you’re there with JoanK?  Please know that all our thoughts for your well-being are with you.

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: May 18, 2009, 10:40:08 PM »
PEDLN - I know that it is often confusing when discussing the Middle East (which includes countries like Iraq, Iran), Central Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan), South Asia (India), North Africa (Egypt) and the Far East (China, Japan) to name just a few.  That's why I have been a long-time subscriber to the marvelous National Geographic Maps and, more recently, access their website regularly.

Although we are learning about GM's contemporary adventures among rural mountain communities whose residents adhere ardently to Islam - remember they are NOT Arabs - , there are among the believers with whom he deals a range of religious commitments, tribal affiliation, clan respect for the elders, treatment of women and female children, as well as greed, selfishness and a centuries old distrust of "strangers" (meaning "infidels").

An excellent balance at this point in the discussion is an article in this month's National Geographic which, although it does not focus on Central Asia, provides a clear explanation of centuries old beliefs and a back-and-forth transition between Islam and Orthodox Christianity and back to Islam in the Holy Land.  The families and individuals featured in the article ARE Arabs, but they are juggling the rise and fall of the religious (especially at the sect levels) and cultural customs of their homeland (Palestine and Israel) in much the same way that the Pakistanis are struggling.  As an aside, here is a link to that article for those posters who might be interested:  http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2009/06/arab-christians/belt-text

DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SUNNI AND SHIA ISLAM:  It is certainly easy to become confused, especially for folks who have not interacted with many Muslims, visited mosques, or studied Islam.  But for this discussion (and others in general), perhaps Googling the words I've highlighted will offer a basic understanding.  Primarily, the difference is in one's belief in the history of Islam and those revered individuals who carried the faith forward following the death of the Prophet Muhammad.

The disparity one finds in Islam and Islamic customs throughout the world is often the result of the cultural history of a region (and its time periods), rather than in what orthodox (original) Islam teaches.  For example, just as there are significant differences in Christianity between the Southern Baptists, Pentecostal Evangelicals (traditional and contemporary), Roman Catholics, Orthodox Greek, Russian and Maronite Catholics, Unitarian and New Age Contemporary (non-denominational) congregations, so there are significant differences in customs and levels of Islamic belief between Sunnis and Shiites.  When I think of Shia Islam, I think of Iran.  When I think of Sunni Islam, I think FIRST of Saudi Arabic and its ultra-orthodox beliefs.  Although the latter has relented in some of its centuries-old traditions in recent years, it has NOT been a significant change.  Other gulf countries which also adhere to Sunni traditions, like Kuwait, have recently elected women to government posts.  Pakistan, on the other hand, is way ahead of a country like Kuwait, since they have had elected female representation for some time.

It's interesting to me that the female names like Khadisha (various spellings exist) and Ayesha (original names of the first two wives of the Holy Prophet Muhammad and very active women in their own right) have been two of the most popular names throughout the centuries, whether in Sunni or Shia communities around the world.

Sorry for the sidetrack, but I thought some of the above info might be helpful as a "side-bar" to GM's work and experiences.  Indeed, he is a mighty fine "giant of a man" who has stepped forward with great dignity and personal commitment to help others.  And, to me, passing that commitment along to his children is the very best part of reading about his experiences!

Mahlia

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: May 19, 2009, 09:05:53 AM »
  TRLEE, I think all of us have a warm spot for Greg Mortenson.
     I read what Mortenson’s mother-in-law said about him, about her daughter’s appraisal of him being right, and her conclusion that Greg was ‘his own species’.   How rare that is.  How often do we hear such things as “No man is a hero to his valet.”, and  “Only in his home town and in his own house is a prophet  without honor“. 
   Greg Mortenson  appears to be an exception to such truisms.  It is those who
 know him best who most love and honor him.  Those angry with him are those he is not allowing to get close and  pursue their own agendas.

 PEDLN, I found some pictures, too, that I thought were pertinent or that I simply really liked. This one of Skardu shows a larger 'village' than I expected.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SkarduFromFort1175.JPG

These I found when I was reading about the Deosai plateau and Nanga Parbat.

http://www.pbase.com/arifakhan/image/33033918  Deosai Plateau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nanga_parbat,_Pakistan_by_gul791.jpg 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Muslim-shawl-makers-kashmir1867.jpg

 MAHLIA, I love NG maps, too, tho' some that I saved are probably out of date now.
 I hadn't thought of putting National Geographic on my favorites list. Great idea.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2009, 09:12:10 AM »
trLee- Welcome to our discussion of Three Cups of Tea.  I echo Babi's sentiment that we all have found a special place in our hearts for this gentle giant, Greg Mortenson.
 Interesting, isn't it, that he hated public speaking about himself but he trodded on in hopes of raising the necessary funds to invest in the children.
It always amazes me that these big guys have the meekest of hearts.
Have you ever met anyone like this man? 

I love the Mother Teresa quotes  given: 
Quote
"Let nothing perturb you, nothing frighten you.  All things pass.
God does not change.  Patience achieves everything."

Man how I wish I could develop and practice that belief.  Patience is NOT one of my better qualities.

Also Mortenson paraphrased another Mother Teresa quote while speaking.
Quote
"What we are trying to do may be just a drop iin the ocean, but the ocean would be less because of that missing drop."

It's akin to "one step at a time" isn't it?  OR- just give one little inch of yourself.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2009, 06:50:19 PM »
One thing I lerned to accept as being a part of this culture is BAKSHEESH. It is thought of as the price of doing business there whereas I'd always considered it to be corruption. see quote below. it is more than that. . . claire


Quote
Baksheesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mar 22, 2009 ... Baksheesh is a term used to describe tipping, charitable giving, and certain forms of political corruption and bribery in the Middle East ...

thimk

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: May 20, 2009, 09:52:11 AM »
Mahlia, thank you again for your insight into the different cultures we’re encountering here.  I know the locations of Sunnis and Shias are not cut and dried, but it certainly helps to know some of the basics.

Babi, that’s a great picture of Skardu, and I really liked the Pakistani ones put on pbase by Arifa Kahn.  From what I understand, Skardu, Khaplu, and Gilgit are something akin to county seats – or the major towns in their respective districts.  I wonder what the population of Korphe and Skardu is.  And I would love to see a picture of  Haji Ali’s house.

Andy, thinking about the monumental tasks Mortenson had to overcome, your paraphrases remind me of another, similar – How do you eat an elephant?  One bite at a time.

We have talked much about the charisma of Mortenson and his remarkable ability to draw so many diverse persons to him.  He has touched so many.  But, there have also been so many who touched him.  Would you say he had many mentors?  Some he sought, but others were just by chance. Without them, the tasks would have been so much harder.  Haji Ali (and his family) – the catalyst, Jean Hoerni – the fixer, the doer, Ghulam Parvi – accountant to that rogue Changazi, a steadying hand, Syed Abbas – the mediator, and even the unknown Kahn who freed him from the Wazis.  And not to forget Jean Bergman, librarian and cousin to Hoerni’s widow, now to collect books and start a library.  Predestination or coincidence? 

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: May 20, 2009, 09:54:12 AM »
Quote
Have you ever met anyone like this man?
 
   Alf, my cousin had a son who was even bigger than mine, a young giant. From the time he was a boy, his parents taught him that he needed to be careful and gentlein playing with other children, as he was stronger then they and might accidentally hurt someone. He took their admonitions to heart, and was a very big, very gentle man.

  And then there is the macho male, to whom a bit of success is a signal to be
more aggressive.  Nawaz Sharif, Prime Minister of Pakistan, apparently started
a war with India that he couldn’t win simply because he was so full of himself
and his success with nuclear tests.  His cocky, foolish aggression destroyed a
rich, beautiful area and ruined the lives of thousands of people.  Bah, humbug!!
  And what a difference caring can make. The young girl from the refugee school:
“I’ve heard some peope say Americans are bad.  But we love Americans. They are the
 most kind people for us. They are the only ones who cared to help us.”


Do I dare to post this?  I grind my teeth and want to curse them, the corrupt officials
who destroy their own country and their own people out of greed!  Seizing their own
young girls and selling them into prostitution.  I wish I could be there when
such creatures as this face the judgment of God.  (Sorry, but I really do get so angry!)



"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2009, 10:05:57 AM »
I've never heard the word baksheesh used in terms of "charitable giving."   I think of the word zakat- which is the percentage of income one contributes to the poor during the Holy Month of Ramadan (or any other time if one chooses to do so) or during the Islamic Pilgrimage to Mecca once a year, known as "The Hajj."

When I think of baksheesh, I think in terms of tipping a driver to make sure that I get where I want to go promptly with no meandering through side streets; for service workers who come to my home and I want a thorough job done with no nonsense.  Or from the corporate standpoint, a bidding company that wants a specific contract to work on a special project pays "corporate tax" - an incentive (baksheesh) to secure the contract or a specific number of workers or drivers or security guards, based on the description (and on-the-ground needs) of the project.  At the corporate level, it is often considered NOT baksheesh, but some type of tax that is included in the contract and accepted by the bidders as part of the cost of securing the contract.  Many times the amount is thousands - sometimes millions of dollars - depending on the companies involved.  This is QUITE common (and expected) among not only the Middle East, but elsewhere in the world, even in the USA. 

Another type of monetary donation, which is NOT considered regular baksheesh, would be the few coins dropped in a bowl or small box on the streets of very poor neighborhoods to help women, children or lepers (or others with physical ailments).  That type of donation is known as baksheesh with love.  In this instance, think of Mother Theresa's efforts in India.

Mahlia

pedln

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 6694
  • SE Missouri
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: May 20, 2009, 10:09:10 AM »
As we approach the last section of Tea, and with the situation in Pakistan becoming more volatile, I find myself wanting to know more about what is occurring now with Mortenson and the Central Asia Institute.  The link below is to an interview with Sadia Ashraf, the Outreach Coordinator for the Central Asia Institute (CAI) and editor of CAI’s e-newsletter, Alima.  Her husband accompanied Mortenson to Pakistan this past March when Mortenson was awarded Pakistan's highest civilian honor -- the Star of Sacrifice.

Ashraf Interview


Quote
Technos: You’ve described Greg Mortenson as an “indiscriminate compassionate”—can you explain what you mean by that?

S.A.: What interested me about Greg was that his basic humanity superseded his biological boundaries. And by that, I mean that people are often defined by the things that divide us: language, culture, race, religion, for example. But, to coexist peacefully on this earth, we have to see beyond these labels. I’m not saying that we should ignore these things, because they define us—but we shouldn’t allow those things to divide us. We’re genetically coded to protect our own families, our own communities, but Greg is someone whose empathy for others supersedes those biological instincts; he is indiscriminately compassionate to all people.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10921
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: May 20, 2009, 03:22:16 PM »
Pedln:  "We have talked much about the charisma of Mortenson and his remarkable ability to draw so many diverse persons to him.  He has touched so many.  But, there have also been so many who touched him.  Would you say he had many mentors?  Some he sought, but others were just by chance. Without them, the tasks would have been so much harder.  Haji Ali (and his family) – the catalyst, Jean Hoerni – the fixer, the doer, Ghulam Parvi – accountant to that rogue Changazi, a steadying hand, Syed Abbas – the mediator, and even the unknown Kahn who freed him from the Wazis.  And not to forget Jean Bergman, librarian and cousin to Hoerni’s widow, now to collect books and start a library.  Predestination or coincidence?"

One of Mortenson's characteristics is that he takes these lessons seriously--notices them and learns from them.

Persian

  • Posts: 181
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: May 20, 2009, 07:53:56 PM »
PEDLN:  Your question RE whether GM had "many mentors" made me recall a Persian saying - "you are always in my eyes" - which could very well reflect how the folks around Mortenson interacted with him.  He was indeed "always in their eyes" whether as someone to rescue and heal (in his initial contact when he was ill), as he promised to return to build a school for the children (i.e.,  you will remain in our eyes until you return to us safely), and watching over what he helped to build, protecting the property, the building, the school supplies and, of course, his subsequent visits.  And since he had already had his "third cup of tea," he was indeed a treasured member of the community.  Thus, indeed in their hearts.

The phrase about always being "in our eyes," (which is also offered with prayers to someone who is greatly loved, someone who is leaving home, traveling or undertaking a dangerous assignment - going into combat - or as in the case of GM, a dear friend).

There is an evilness in the part of the world which we've been reading about, which is often not understood (or many times not even acknowledged) by the West, but at the village level there is often tremendous love and feelings of compassion for folks who "reach out" to help.  And this is how I've viewed the villagers with whom GM has come into contact and, quite clearly, how he is viewed by many of them.  Indeed, a gentle giant whose footprints have led to his touching the hearts of many in an intriguing (and often little known or understood) region of the world.

BABI - isn't it amazing how so often the biggest individuals are indeed the most gentle and the most giving of themselves, their skills and their treasure!

Mahlia

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: May 21, 2009, 08:22:22 AM »
 Mrs. Ashraf is a very articulate lady. She makes a splendid spokesman for the CAI. I am so pleased to learn that Mortenson is receiving such an honor
from Pakistan. He has certainly earned it.

 Speaking of 'that rogue' Chongazi, Mortenson did eventually buid a school in his
village also. I was glad of that, as the children needed it. But I found myself
imagining a vision of Mortenson going to the village elders explaining that many
of his school supplies had been 'lost' under Chongazi's care, and if they could be found, he planned to use them toward building a school in their village. I can visualize Chongazi facing the village elders, and wonder if such materials would have been 'found'.
   I found another beautiful line by Relin: The wonderful image he gives us, of  lush cherry trees standing where there were only dunes,  “blooming out of the sand as improbably as the students who walk home after school beneath their boughs, the girls of the Gultori.”
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: May 21, 2009, 12:52:53 PM »
Yes, ladies, this big giant of a guy was a ''softie" at heart.  I loved the idea that with his gaudy offering he  satto view his heroine, Mother Teresa, in repose thinking how this small being had such a huge effect on humanity.

Mortenson changed his attitude about the war in Afghanistan and asked the question:
Quote
"Why do Pentagon officials give us numbers on AlQaeda and Taliban operatives killed in bombing raids but throw their hands in the air when asked about civilian casualties?"


Mortenson sat with young boys and listened to their horrowr stories of what the war had wrought into their families.

He even met men who had fought with the Taliban and had admitted to him that "like the Taliban, jihadi was in theory only."
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell