Three Cups of Tea ~ Mortenson & Relin ~ May 1st ~ Book Club Online

[ALF43]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

Three Cups of Tea by Greg Mortenson & David Oliver Relin "The first time that you share tea with a Balti, you are a stranger" a villager tells our author.  "The second time, you are an honored guest.  The third time you become family." ~ Three  Cups of Tea ______________ Three Cups of Tea is an inspirational story of one man's efforts to address poverty, educate girls, and overcome cultural divides.  This book won the 2007 Kiriyama Prize for nonfiction revealing the enormous obstacles inherent in becoming such "family." ~ Bookmarks Magazine

Three Cups of Tea -- Homepage. Ignorance -- the Real Enemy. Synopsis and Biography. Readers' Guide by the Author. K2 Mountain.

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Discussion Schedule May 1 - 7         Chapters 1 - 6 May 8 - 14       Chapters 7 - 12 May 15 - 21      Chapters 13 - 18 May 22 - 31      Chapters 19 - End

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1.  What made Mortenson particularly ripe for such a transformation?  Has anything similar happened in your own life? 2.  Is Mortenson someone that you would like to know, work with or have as a neighbor or friend? 3.  At the heart of the book is a powerful but simple poliical message: we each as individuals have the power to change the world, one cup of tea at a time,  etc.

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Discussion Leaders: Andy(ALF43), JoanK & Pedln

     You all have been so attentive, informative and enlightening  during this discussion but I think after a few days more we will be wrapping up Three Cups of Tea, with Mortenson.
 In my heart, I admit to the fact that this should have been a two week read and I fear that it may have discouraged some folks from joining in.  

Do you think Mortenson will ever win a Nobel prize?

[Persian]

ALF - Sorry, but am I missing something here?  I understood that the discussion would last one month.  We seem to be on schedule.  And considering that there has been some absolutely wonderful information provided in the numerous links - info about which some posters may NOT already be aware.  Additionally, Central Asia (and its people) on which this discussion focuses is admittedly not well understood, especially by those in the West.  Thus, allowing the discussion to continue for one month (as indicated in the posted schedule) has, I believe, been a marvelous opportunity for learning.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the regional politics, the customs of its residents (villagers, clans, tribes and religious customs), discussing Three Cups of Tea and GM's adventures and contributions to the area offers an excellent opportunity to view a world much different than one to which most are acquainted.  No apologies needed for that gift to all of us!

Mahlia

[ALF43]

Mahlia- I agree 100% about the information that has been offered and available to all of us here during this discussion.
 If you and the rest feel that another 10 days is warranted, I'm all for it.
 
I don't wish to drag a discussion out if we get bogged down as we near the end.  I will leave this up to the group.
I still have questions  that I'd like to pose from the Reader's Guide:

What say you all?

[ALF43]

There are certain recognizable patterns in the development of people/cultures and I wonder will we ever be able to integrate these philosophies?  The flow must be from "me" to "us" to "all of us."  Cultures move thru distinct stages with distinct values and to know that is a great tool in  communicating with others, be it Eastern vs. Western or black vs. white, etc.
I know that I'm going off on a philosophy kick but we all travel and our different value systems travel with us.  Some cultures speak the language of "ME"; some speak of "US" and some do speak of "all of us."
Thanks to globalization , many value systems have already been brought together (united even in some instances.)

Mortenson's ambitious attempts helped integrate just this small area by addressing these different values in terms of their own language. He said himself :
 

"I realized my credibility in that part of the world depended on me not being associated with the American government, especially the military."

Will we ever come to terms with different value systems, do you think?  (In our time, especially.)

These thoughts sadden me and the title of Chapter 22 sums it up

THE ENEMY IS IGNORANCE.

[fairanna]

I keep reading but have no idea if I am ahead or behind in chapters etc ..I am just so moved by what this man and the people there have gone through and endured and kept being positive in spite of some calamaties ...everytime there has been a mountain in the road GM and the people there moved it ...what most people would have said when things went  wrong would have been  WE CANT DO IT  but these people and GM dont seem to recognize the word CANT ....I am proud of GM and prouder still of the people there that just pitched in and made this dream a reality ...I am so glad this book was chosen...

[Babi]

 ALF, I couldn't have begun to talk about all the ideas this book brought to mind in
just two weeks. You were definitely right to make it a full month. Seems to me it will
be finishing up just about right.

I looked up 'Wahhabism', meaning, literally, ‘generous giver’.  That is their strength,
 of course, the endless funds pouring out of Saudi Arabia,  buying adherents from among the poorest.  It’s happened before;  the ‘rice bowl’ Christian converts of  China, for example.  The  Jesuit missionaries, however, did not turn their converts into militant extremists.   To his credit, Mortenson does say that not all the Wahhabi are bad, and that many of their schools and mosques were going genuine good work to help the poor.  Many others, however,  existed only to teach  a militant jihad.
And the students at the madrassas were “the rootless, the jobless and the economicallydeprived with little self knowledge”.
    It would seem the best thing the West could do is to help with education for
‘self-knowledge’ and jobs for the jobless, both of which relieve the economically
deprived.

It was such relief to read of the ‘bloodless’ coup that removed Mawaz Sharif from
office and replaced him with a government, even one of martial law, that cracked
down on corruption and actually begun getting some funds to needy villages
in the countryside.   Not to mention one that promised to act against the Islamic
extremists.   How fortunate it was for Mortenson and the McCown’s that Musharraf
was in control of Pakistan on 9/11, and prepared to assist them.

I find compelling  the image of Faisal Baig, with his AK-47 in one hand and the other
clenched into a fist, staring at the peaks that separated them from Afghanistan.  
“Your problem in New York village comes from there. From this Al Qaeda shetan , Osama.”  (I leave it to your imagination to translate ‘shetan’. I have my own.)
 
“It would take months and millions of dollars poured into the flailing serpentine arms of the U.S. Intelligence apparatus to untangle for certain what this illiterate man who lived in the last village at the end of a dirt road, without an Internet connection or even a phone, knew instinctively.”
  

[ALF43]

fairanna-  you are neither behind nor ahead with the reading schedule.  This week we finish up our discussion -- so anything at all that you would care to mention is now "safe territory."

Thank you Babi for your helpful comment regarding the length of time allowed.    Our site is new here and we wish to do what ever works best for all involved.  Feedback is important to us.

[Persian]

I think there are numerous tribal elders and some in mid-age who have learned (sadly) that those who offer to feed and clothe their children (especially during the Holy Month of Ramadan), educate them in the numerous madrassas throughout the region, and "talk the big talk" about a better way of life, also expect unending devotion (no questions asked) from the families of those who benefit from their deceitful intentions.  Thus referring to Osama (bin Laden) as "she'tan" (Satan) tends to say it all.  There are other phrases which are common in this world region:  "the Great She'tan); "She'tan's minions" (fallen angels who do the work of the devil or humans who are evil minded); "She'tanic attitudes" or behavior usually referring to individuals (or families) who have unusual health conditions.

In the latter context, I was reminded of a program which will be featured tonight on the TV program 20/20 RE Tourette's Syndrome.  Without the intensive training and understanding of this disorder as offered in the West, individuals afflicted with such health challenges in other world regions are often not well understood or receive the care and treatment which helps them (and their families) to deal with their unusual behavior. 

One of my former students in China, who had been locked into a small wooden chamber as a child because his rural family thought he was an "incarnate of the Devil," lacked the proper nourishment in childhood and early youth to develop strong bones and good health.  Thus, this young man was no taller than my waist when I first met him, he walked bent over from the waist and one leg was much shorter than the other. He also exhibited what I thought was Tourette's Syndrome.  Yet he had a vibrant mind, loved to play violin, and enjoyed learning.  The university administration and most faculty couldn't decide what to do with him, but he kept showing up and asking to be allowed to attend classes.  Mine was one of them.  This young man offered me a wonderful learning opportunity for myself and a great chance to share information with him about American culture.

Mahlia

[JoanK]

I'm back with a new computer which I'm just learning to use. Just have time to read all the wonderful posts and post briefly.

I loved the quote from Mother Teresa. my favorite of her quotes is "You can't do great things in this world, but you can do small things with great love". Mortensen, by doing "small things with great love" winds up doing great things.

[Jonathan]

Good luck with your new computer, Joan. Are you sorry that our hero, Mortenson, the climbing bum, never made it to the top of K2? The mountain has seemed to be hovering in the background all along, like the Qu'ran. And now here he is in the company of Mother Teresa, who had her own unclimbed spiritual K2, if we can believe her words in her book, Come Be My Light. Sure, I think Mortenson should also be awarded a Nobel.

And talk about Mortenson as the gentle giant. I have to keep thinking of another giant, who tamed the daring, dauntless, violent Pathans in this Khyber Pass area in another time of turmoil. Abdul Ghaffer Khan, who was won over to non-violence by Gandhi in the struggle for freedom. Mahlia put us on to the Badshah Khan in another discussion a few years ago, with a reference to the book A Man To Match His Mountains, by Eknath Easwaran.

All their efforts were in vain. It's been all downhill in the area since then. A pretty good picture is to be had in Descent Into Chaos, by Ahmed Rashid. And then along comes a guy like Mortenson  and restores ones faith in humanity.

[Persian]

HI JONATHAN - Here's a link to a great photo of the Badshah, alongside Ghandi.  I remember our discussion sometime ago.  I've read the book many times until it is almost in shreds on my shelf and used it just as often as a teaching tool for lectures on World Regions.  True, there have been continued battles of many decades in the region, much as we continue to see in recent years.  But folks like the Badshah and Greg Mortenson give one hope.  Doesn't it make you wonder what it would have been like if they had been able to meet each other?

Mahlia

[JoanK]

JONATHAN: part of me is sorry he didn't summit K2: climbing (and nature) is so unfair: he didn't summit partly because he wore himself out hellping others. But most of me is glad -- if he had summited, he would have celebrated and gone on to another mountain, and hundreds of children would have been poorer.

As a climbing bum,we need your take on Mortensen. Does he seem like "someone from another planet" or is he familiar.

You all think of him as a "gentle giant". Since I live with my 6'5" son, my reaction when the book mentioned his size is "he's not so tall". But the pictures in the book show that amoung the shorter Balti, he really is a giant. I wonder if that helped or hindered him in his deqalings.

[Babi]

I remember Mahlia telling us about "A Man to Match His Mountains". I tried
to find that book at the time but was unable to do so. It sounds like such
a good story; I think I need to do an on-line search among the 'old and used'.
  MAHLIA, I don't see the link to the photo of the Badshah. Could you try posting it again?

  Syed Abbas is another good man. I am glad his words were preserved, in the speech he gave at the school dedication following 9/ll. This is the supreme religious leader of the Baltistan, and he says: “Those who have committed this evil act against the innocent, the women and children, to create thousands of widows and orphans do not do so in the name of Islam.  By the grace of Alah the Almighty, may justice be served upon them.”  To which I say, ‘Amen‘.
   In the same speech Syed Abbas says, “I request America to look into our hearts, and see that the great majority of us are not terrorists, but good and simple people.  Our land is stricken with poverty because we are without education. But today, another candle of knowledge has been lit.  In the name of Allah the Almighty, may it light our way out of the darkness we find ourselves in."   To which again I say, ‘Amen’

[Persian]

BABI -  Thanks for catching my forgetfulness.   Here is the link I intended to post - a bit long, but one that should take you to a close-up photo of the Badshah, alongside Ghandi.  If you click on the items on the RIGHT side, there is more information and on the lower LEFT side, there are some additional photos.

Mahlia

 http://books.google.com/books?id=Qt-5KgZa5VEC&dq=A+Man+To+Match+His+Mountains,+by+Eknath+Easwaran.&source=gbs_summary_s&cad=0

[pedln]

JoanK, I’m so glad you got set up with a new computer.  Nice, but always with a new learning curve.  Good luck with yours.  You wonder if Mortenson’s height, or size affected his dealings with his Pakistani friends.  I don’t think so.  They loved him, but they also knew it was mutual admiration – that Mortenson truly cared for them.

Babi, I’m glad you posted parts of  Syed Abbas’ dedication speech – especially when he says, “look into our hearts .   .   . and see that we are good and simple people.”  This book has certainly helped in that respect, but it is also a reminder that we need to look for the goodness in others and not just be so concerned with their differences.  That is something that Mortenson seems to do with ease.

This morning I was looking for recent articles about Syed Abbas Risvi, and didn’t really find any that zeroed in on him, but did find some others that were current – especially the first link here, which quotes  librarian Julia Bermann.

Jonathan, glad to see you here.  Must dash now to the Post Office before it closes.

Education-Minded Afghans, Pakistanis Urge Central Asia Institute to Build More Schools

Since the group mainly builds primary schools for grades K through five, one special concern is students’ ability to continue their education. To this end, Bergman said, in addition to providing scholarships CAI is building a hostel in Skardu to provide safe, chaperoned housing for students while they attend middle school and high school in Baltistan’s capital city. Since CAI schools follow the national curriculum of Pakistan, graduates eventually can matriculate to universities in Lahore or other major cities. With financial assistance from CAI, Bergman noted, Jahan Ali, Korphe School’s first graduate, was able to continue her education in Skardu

Wish I seen this one earlier – vocab, and describes all those who appeared in the book.

Vocab and characters


This from an article by a father whose daughter placed Three Cups of Tea in his hands.

Morningside Center

Fifteen years after he stumbled upon Korphe to be greeted by Haji Ali, Mortenson is still at work building schools--to date, 55 in Pakistan, 8 in Afghanistan, and more than a dozen others under construction. They serve 26,000 children, 16,000 of them girls.
Finishing Three Cups of Tea, I was reminded of Thomas Merton's "A Letter to a Young Activist. "Do not depend on the hope of results," Merton wrote. "When you are doing the sort of work you have taken on…you may have to face the fact that your work will be apparently worthless and even achieve no result at all, if not perhaps results opposite to what you expect. As you get used to this idea, you start more and more to concentrate not on the results but on the value, the truth of the work itself."[/quote]

[ALF43]

Pedln- I can not get that link to work for me.  Now I feel like poor Joan, ready to throw in the towel.

Hello Joanathan, you pose a good point about Mortenson never reaching the K2 summit.  Do you think he is disappointed still at this point in his life?

Sure, I think Mortenson should also be awarded a Nobel.

Do you believe that  it would be a Peace prize extended to him?  Will we ever find peace in that area?  I am not a pessimist by any means but it all seems so devastatingly hostile still.
But.... as Persian said:
But

folks like the Badshah and Greg Mortenson give one hope. 

[Babi]

  I found the picture of Gandhi and the Badshah, Mahlia. Thanks for the link. I
was surprised to see the Badshah; I had expected him to be big, like his mountains.
      MAHLIA, can you  explain to me more clearly what Mortenson meant when he said that to ignore the victims is to deny they ever existed?  And that there is no greater insult in the Islamic world, one that is unforgivable?

  Speaking of the importance of education,  DOR describes the educational background of some Taliban leaders. Mullah Omar, like most of those around him, had only a madrassa education.  Their minister of education reportedly had no education at all.  How’s that for irony?  

 PEDLN, another tribute to the individual who is Greg Mortenson.   An experienced, worldly-wise journalist like Fedarko says “For the first time in sixteen years of working as a journalist, I lost all  objectivity.  I told Greg, ‘What you’re doing here is a much more important story than the one I’ve come to report.  I have to find a way to tell it.’ “ When you can shake up a cynical journalist, you've definitely got something unique.

[pedln]

Mullah Omar, like most of those around him, had only a madrassa education.  Their minister of education reportedly had no education at all.  How’s that for irony? 

Babi, that is so sad.  In a tongue-in-cheek way it reminds of me of trying to interest school administrators, who never read beyond the sports page, in the school library programs. And then you think about the village leaders like Haji Ali, who had no schooling, and yet they all knew the value of learning and wanted it desperately for their children.

Oh wow!  Just watched the shuttle landing at Edwards.  We are so fortunate to have such wide-spread access to our very large world.  What about those in the Baltisan and similar areas of Central Asia, Africa and the Middle East?  Those who do not get far from the mud huts?  Even though they may be cyber have-nots, teachers and books are enlarging their world too.

[ALF43]

Small victories are so monumental such as when the Shaiat Court ruled in favor of Mehdi Ali and Mortenson, ordering Mubarek to compensate for the 800 bricks his men destroyed.
This brought today's headlines right to the surface as Mortenson declared:

"Here you have this Islamic court in conservative Sia Pakistan offering protection for an American, at a time when America is holding Muslims without charges in Guantanamo, Cuba, for years, under our so called system of justice."

What a can of worms that has turned out to be and I have to side with the sentiment of Bashir when he exclaimed:

"Your President has done a wonderful job of uniting one bllion Muslims against America for the next 200 years."

[Babi]

  We at least now have the comfort of knowing that President Obama has ordered an end to the Guantanamo situation.  If charges cannot be brought, the 'detainees' must be released.  It does not give back the years these people have lost or make amends for all they suffered, but it at least will bring this disgrace to an end.
  I understand the need to investigate possible terrorist ties, but whenever the
investigations found nothing, the people concerned should have been released
immediately.

  Please tell me this was a joke.  Rumsfeld didn’t really complain that there were no good targets in Afghanistan, and suggest they strike Iraq instead, did he?   A joke about him, or a joke by him,  but  at least a joke, right?

[Persian]

BABI - here's another link to an additional photo of the Badshah, showing him standing along-side some officials.  In this photo, you'll easily see that he is very tall - I'd guess about 6'4" or so, like many of his tribesmen.  The photo in the earlier link, which shows him next to Ghandi must surely have been taken while they were sitting.

 http://books.google.com/books?id=Qt-5KgZa5VEC&pg=PA208&dq=A+Man+To+Match+His+Mountains,+by+Eknath+Easwaran.&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPA208,M1

And in response to your question about "ignoring the victim" and doing so "is an extreme insult in the Islamic world" . . . I would understand that to mean that in Islam ALL human life is valuable and that if one claims to be a Muslim, then one must recognize and care for the "victims" (in any situation and if at all possible, even placing one's own needs  at the end of the line) if indeed they cannot care for themselves (elderly, ill) and/or treat others with compassion.

There are several phrases that come to mind - one of which is "if you claim to be a Muslim, make sure that you feed the least amongst you (the widows and orphans, those who have been otherwise abandoned, the ill and mentally challenged, and anyone else who cannot for whatever reason care for themselves)  before you open your own mouth."  This means all the time during the entire year, NOT just during the Holy month of Ramadan.

Mahlia

[fairanna]

Well I finished the book last evening and of course the best part was that Mortenson had accomplished much and is still trying to continue to do so.. In one poem I wrote "Parents arm your children with knowledge. take away the guns " too bad that is not what most people or sadly countries feel  "book learning" and knowledge is not really the same thing ...one of my sons was "an overactive child" I forget what the medical world called it and the school system did not help ..but I fought to see that he did get the special classes that he needs. Why do we assume each child or person learns the same way ? He is a successful adult ..in every way ...so to me what Mortenson did is so wonderful and the fact that the elders in the communities felt the same way tells me they are wonderful too...When any country resorts to doing the "wrong" things then you know the people will suffer..and I mean "any country" I am so glad we discussd this book ..it gave me a "lot" of heros to cheer for and Mortenson would be at the top of my current list....

[Babi]

Thanks, MAHLIA, both for the additional photo of Badshah Khan and for the explanation of the 'insult' of ignoring victims in need. I suspect there are not many who will go so far as to put the needs of others before their own, though. I will cheerfully give all I can spare, but not to the point of 'before you open your own mouth', which I assume means to eat.

A pair of vignettes:  Haji Ali on the death of his wife, Salina.  Old enough and strong enough to confess how much she meant to him.
    Then Mortenson finding him gone the following year, and mourning him as a second father.

Then, Islamabad’s five-star Marriott  Hotel,   “a fortress of luxury protected from the country’s poverty by concrete crash gates and a force of 150 security guards….who loitered behind every bush and tree…” Oh, yeah.  That would really make me feel safe.  Those stinging little words, 'protectd from the country's poverty'.  That says so much.

  Have  you noticed how freely and openly Muslims pray?  Everyone calls on Allah  wherever and  whenever they feel the need to do so.  How different it is in America.  I don’t doubt  Christians pray in times of trouble and danger, but they do so privately, silently.  It seems we are embarrassed  to do otherwise.  We don’t want to be thought of as ‘religious’,  a word that has come to have some very negative connotations in recent years.   I look at the commitment to prayer and the submission to whatever God sends that I see in Islam,  and I am ashamed of my own laxity.

[Persian]

BABI - no need to be ashamed RE prayers.  Islam teaches that prayer can be offered in many ways - verbally, through gestures of support to those in need, assistance for many of life's challenges and, perhaps most importantly of all, through one's silence.  If one is unable to pray verbally, silent prayers are just as powerful.  Individuals who cannot speak aloud (for whatever reason) can "pray with their eyes focused towards Our Lord."  

I was reminded of the latter when I watched the National Memorial Day Service on TV and noticed the young wounded soldier sitting in a wheelchair, alongside his Mother and sister in the front row.  He was totally paralyzed from his injuries, but his eyes moved occasionally.  I wondered if he was praying - perhaps thanking the Lord for the close presence of family or being able to sit front-row center at the program, while two actresses (representing the Mother and sister) spoke of uprooting their own lives to care for him daily, far away from their home and friends.  "I will NEVER leave my son," the Mother promised, in much the same way our Lord has promised never to leave us, whether we pray regularly or not.

Another issue I've always appreciated about prayers is that from my own experiences (in the USA and abroad) our Lord listens to prayers or just talking to Him (in any language or region of the world), regardless of the topic, our tone of voice, or the reason we are communicating with Him.

Mahlia

[fairanna]

Babi that is a great comment  about praying ...I AM A BELIEVER in prayer A STRONG one but after reading your post I wonder about why I dont pray out loud or make it apparant I am praying  However I do bless people in public...and often when I see people hug ask to be included and I have never had one say no They just open thier arms and we have a group hug I add a GOD BLESS and they tell me by their smiles and sometimes another hug they are blessing me...I was in the commissary this weekend and one of the people who stack the shelves helped me to put a bracelet that had fallen to the floor a special one from my children , it has a sort of trick connection,. she came over and hooked it for me and turned to go back to her job But I was near tears thinking I could have lost it..she turned and came back and gave me a hug and I hugged her back and said GOD BLESS YOU>>of course I knew HE HAD  because of her kindness

For years I kept my prayer list on the refrigerator door and I had it divided one side said Prayers asked and the other side Prayers answered I can remember my childrens friends checking it and often I knew they had problems and of course their names were on the list
I can recall when they saw thier names there they were touched and pleased that I had prayed for them or for someone they knew ..I think I will do it again so my family will see or a visitor might see ..they are being remembered.

Your post and Mahklia's opened my heart to the importance of letting others know you pray... Thanks God I needed that.. always, anna

[ALF43]

"I will NEVER leave my son," the Mother promised, in much the same way our Lord has promised never to leave us, whether we pray regularly or not.

Mahlia, what a powerful analogy you have made with that story.  I love it and it gives me pause.

Babi-  I, too, sit ashamed when I consider your quote.

Have  you noticed how freely and openly Muslims pray?  Everyone calls on Allah  wherever and  whenever they feel the need to do so.  How different it is in America.  I don’t doubt  Christians pray in times of trouble and danger, but they do so privately, silently.  It seems we are embarrassed  to do otherwise.  We don’t want to be thought of as ‘religious’,  a word that has come to have some very negative connotations in recent years. 

WHY, I ask has religion taken such a disavowing slant?  Is it because of the zealots in all of their fervor that we take a step back when someone initiates a religious discussion?  Just the other day I made a comment and someone asked me if "I got religion?"  My answer was "No, religion has always had me!"  It was a benign conversation about the over abuse of alchohol.  I shook my head and walked away.

Why do we pray siently?  It is a thoughtful question and one that I feel should be addressed.  Many times people prefer the quiet and the solitude of prayer while they indulge in introspection or meditation.  I belong to a prayer group where we pray aloud, together and many times prostrate ourselves at the altar in prayer.  Other times we sit and pray silently.
To "God Bless " someone as Anna has done is to honor them, IMO.  They deserve God's blessing and his sanction in the person's eyes.

I am with you Anna.  I am going to take my prayer list out of my Bible and place it on my refrigerator.  IN RED!

Who doesn't need grace and favor?  Islams, Christians, Jew, we are all in need of that bigger power.

[Persian]

Remember the story of the double footprints alongside each other in the sand?  And then, periodically, there was only one set of footprints . . . when the Lord carried His "beloved son?"  I've used that story (and some photos of the footprints in the sand) often in my lectures, when talking to folks from other faith backgrounds and those who have no faith background (or at least they think they don't).

From my own personal experiences being raised in a multicultural/multifaith environment, I've realized numerous times how often we can misjudge, criticize or miss the point altogether.  Fortunately, for all humans, the Lord does not.  Just as we see as GM travels to the high mountain ranges of Central Asia to fulfill his love and respect to his deceased sister, but also disc overs "a whole new world" that might NOT have come to his attention on a regular mountain climbing expedition.

Earlier today, my cousin's widow called to tell me that her plans to sell her Michigan home and relocate to Florida were moving along "according to the Lord's plans."  That's wonderful.

At the end of March, my son, "Chaps" and his family returned safely to the USA after more than 2 years of being posted in Europe, following his deployments with his soldiers to Iraq and Afghanistan.  He may deploy for a second time to the latter and if so, I know the Lord will walk alongside ALL THE WAY.  He promised!

Our dear friend from the former SN, Cordelia, was  called by the Lord early this morning, and I know how devastated Papa John is feeling now.  Our Lord must certainly have needed another Angel and he called Cordelia!

For each one of us there is a very special way that we understand prayer/response - whether in times of sadness, thankfulness or family troubles - and each way is right for us.  And for those from  backgrounds totally different than our own!  In the latter case, it is a wonderful opportunity to share and learn . . . and if they're really, really nice folks, share some ice cream with them!

Mahlia

[ALF43]

I read in horror Mortenson's escapade when he spotted the painted red rocks at th etop of a mountain pass, some of them obscured by snow.  I didn't know that

Afghanistan is the most heavily mined country on earth with millions of timy explosives buried by half a dozen differnet armies over decades.......

They cleared the land mines and were rescued by a couple of smugglers, in an overloaded, laboring truck filled with "hot" refrigerators.  See there is honor amongst thieves, they even offered the guys juicy grapes.

How sad for the old man, Mohammed who asked "why did the taliban have to kill our land?"

It became increasingly clear to Mortenson just how much killing had been done in Afghanistan, and how thoroughly not just the civilians but the combatants, must have suffered"

.

[pedln]

.   .   .    .    called to tell me that her plans  .   .   .     .were moving along "according to the Lord's plans."

That’s lovely, Mahlia,  much like “Inshallah”  --  God willing, and perhaps, “if it’s in God’s plan.”

Yes, Babi, the Muslim commitment to prayer is awesome.  The calls to prayer are the most important parts of the day.  I don’t doubt that there are many in other religions that have the same commitment, but because it is not as visible we are unaware of it.

That was awful, Andy, they were really between a rock and a hard place  ---  either get blown up from a mine or go back in the tunnel and get smashed by a truck.  GM really found himself in some very dangerous situations, but for the most part, he always found others who were willing to help him.  And when they got in the crossfire of the smugglers, Abdullah made sure that GM was going to get out of there safely; he’d worry about his own safety later.

I knew that there were parts of the world that were heavilly mined, but did not know that Afghanistan was the most mined.  Princess Diana campaigned heavily to get mines removed, but I’m not sure which countries she was concerned with.  And weren’t there two women from Ireland several years ago who were awarded the Peace Prize(? not sure) for their work in getting mines removed.

[Babi]

 Thank you, MAHLIA & ANNA. You've brightened my day.

"..he always found others who were willing to help him."

 PEDLN, this sort of
thing happened so often I am convinced that, as Mahlia said, the Lord was'walking
with him". I believe that is especially true when one is doing work pleasing to
God. As both the Bible and the Qu'ran teach, true 'religion' is helping the poor,
the widow, the orphan, the homeless.

  I remember two women from Ireland being honored for their work in bringing
about a truce between the warring Catholic/Protestant factions. Perhaps that is
what you're remembering.

  I have to say another ‘Amen’, to Christiane Letinger’s  comment about the heroism
of Tara Bishop.  How many women could have endured such a life, with a husband/father
gone for months at a time, raising two children,   living on a relatively small
income supplemented by part time work of her own.  Yet Tara not only lived with it,
 she supported it. Realistically speaking, I don’t believe there is any way Mortenson
could have accomplished all he did without that kind of love and support at home.  
I am reminded of HajI Ali’s tribute to his wife: “I am nothing without her.”

[Persian]

BABI - I am reminded of HajI Ali’s tribute to his wife: “I am nothing without her.”

Although we in the West may not fully realize the importance of women in Islamic communities, regardless of the horrors experienced by many at the hands of young males who have been indoctrinated (especially in the radical madrassas which often teach that females are inferior), many Muslims whom I have known personally follow in the footsteps of Hajji Ali's great respect for his wife and pride in their daughters and other female relatives.  

On the opposite side, is the FRONTLINE WORLD TV program which I watched last night, http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/  depicting the horrendous indoctrination in many of the madrassas in Pakistan, which recruit young male children (as young as 5,6,7 years old) and forcibly teach them that females are inferior.  At several stages of the program, I was strongly tempted to turn off the TV, but decided I needed to watch it to the end.  Then I sent the link to the program to Chaps, so that he can use it as a cultural teaching tool for his young soldiers heading to Afghanistan in the Summer - many of whom have never been away from home before, let alone to a country in Central Asia, where customs regarding gender (and other topics) are often abhorrently different than in the West.

Mahlia

[pedln]

Some years ago I read a book by a woman who had been part of the royal family in Saudi Arabia.  One of her earliest  childhood memories was of telling her mother about something mean that her brother had done to her.  Her mother slapped her, and let her know in no uncertain terms that her brother was far superior to her, and could do as he pleased.  Looking back on that, I wonder if it was the mother's way of saying, "stay out of his way, don't mess with your brother."

[Persian]

PEDLN - I'd interpret the Saudi mother's comments to her daughter as meaning she should not criticize her brother, not necessarily to "stay out of his way."  Of course, it would depend on the age of the young girl (and that of her brother), whether there were others around to hear the child's comment, and the context in which the girl was  complaining about her brother's actions.  I've known some extremely strong and verbal young Saudi girls and also some enormously shy and nonverbal girls.  The differences in behavior, of course, depends enormously on education, cultural background and one's personal emotional/psychological makeup.  That also applies to the parents (and the family) in which one is raised.  And sometimes such stringent behavior changes drastically when an individual or family is exposed to less rigorous religious rules.

Here's a link to an excellent text (and several reviews)  about the ultra-orthodox Wahhabi sect of Islam to which Saudi Arabia adheres.  It is written by a scholar at Georgetown University in Washington DC, who is well versed in her topic.

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/Islam/?view=usa&ci=0195169913

The Wahhabi doctrine of Islam is enormously different (and much stricter) than that of the Shia and Sunni branches. Often those of the Wahhabi sect do not accept the former at all.  There are, of course, numerous other links, but this one explains the intense orthodoxy and history of the Wahhabis  in Saudi Arabia.  


Mahlia

[Babi]

  I wondered why Mortenson wanted to talk with the military leaders at the Pentagon, since he was not willing to accept any funds from them for the CAI.   (It just struck me; what a world of difference between CAI and CIA.)  Anyway, reading what he said to them, I can only assume he was hoping some of the leadership would think about what he said, and make changes in their approach to the problems of the mid-East. “I’m here because I know that military victory is only the first phase of winning the war on  terror and I’m afraid we’re not willing to take the next step.”    Then he spoke of the custom of warring tribes to hold a jirga before the fighting began,  to discuss how many losses they were willing to accept (?), since the victors  were expected to take care of the widows and orphans of  those they defeated.  Now that is religion in action.

     I was shocked by Gen. Bashir’s declaration that Osama bin Laden was a creation of America!   I think he went too far, but he did make a good point.  It came to a point where we had to pour immense resources and the lives of young men and women into searching for Bin Laden and pulling down Saddam Hussein.  Bashir insisted that we needed to attack the source of  their strength, and that is ignorance.  Extremists can prey upon, mislead and recruit the ignorant and the poor.
  He is right.  And while he did not say this, I would add that our ignorance, here in America, of the people there, has made it easier for such men as Bin Laden and Hussein.
   I think all this is why I was so moved by DOR’s words, that the students who studied within their stone walls had become each village’s most carefully tended crop.

[Persian]

Wouldn't it be marvelous if more school children in these regions could be "tended" with the same commitment that the Afghans direct to their poppy crops each year.  I've often wondered why the military (Western and local) don't load more of those sky-borne drones with a product which could be sprayed on the poppies without harming the people in the area and get rid of those "fields of death." If Western countries are agreeable to paying baksheesh (and they continue to do so in many ways that are not always known to the public at large), they could reimburse the villagers for their lost income from poppies, while at the same time reducing the amount of drugs on the world stage.  At the same time, USDA (or other agencies in the US and abroad) could introduce additional educational programs at the local level in Central Asia to prepare and educate locals about the benefit of redirecting their efforts to a different crop.  What's standing in the way?  Age-old corruption (especially at the highest govt, regional and local levels) and the lack of education about the potential value of new crops.

Mahlia

[ALF43]

Mortenson adapted admirably to all of the problems and obstacles that he had to face. As Babi quotes here:

I have to say another ‘Amen’, to Christiane Letinger’s  comment about the heroism
of Tara Bishop.  How many women could have endured such a life, with a husband/father
gone for months at a time, raising two children,   living on a relatively small income supplemented by part time work of her own.  Yet Tara not only lived with it,she supported it. Realistically speaking, I don’t believe there is any way Mortenson could have accomplished all he did without that kind of love and support at home. 
I am reminded of HajI Ali’s tribute to his wife: “I am nothing without her.”

I don't remember reading it but did Tara don a Burkha while living there?

In 2003 the opium harvest had spiked to almost 4,000 tons and Afghanistan produced two-thirds of the world's raw material for heroin.
That was a staggering statistic to me.  I had always believed that the greatest amount came from Columbia.

I want to thank you all for your reflections and thoughtful viewpoints that you each brought to our discussion of Three Cups of Tea.   

I wonder will this unparalled campaign continue in that area?  So many of these schools are being bombed and trashed by the Taliban? 
Will these children be safe while trying to learn?  I have many unanswered questions and I must admit that it is due to MY ignorance of the area. 
  I thank each of you, for shedding some light on a very dark and staggering situation that these loving, kind people must endure.

 May we all be blessed with the likes of Greg Mortenson who strives to uplift and climb the highest mountain- the mountain of ignorance.

 

[ALF43]

AHA- Mahlia, we were posting at the same time.  I see that you have also addressed the poppy crops.  Poppy crops are $$$$$ and you have answered by question.

What's standing in the way?  Age-old corruption (especially at the highest govt, regional and local levels) and the lack of education about the potential value of new crops.

[Persian]

ALF - Why don't you post some of your  questions and let's see if we can answer them before we sign off from this discussion?

I also wondered if since we've shared so much information and learned a lot from sharing GM's experiences through this discussion, whether a new site could be added where we could continue the discussion of the topics we have begun to explore here - more on the region (Afghanistan and Pakistan), the people and their customs, which we have learned are often so very different from those in the West, keep up with the media regarding the published reports about American participation in the region, and any other cultural or educational topic which might be of interest.

From my perspective, this has been a wonderful opportunity to discuss and learn not only about GM's efforts in Central Asia, but to share our own experiences and learn from each other.  I'd truly like to see this topical interaction continue in SeniorLearn when we come to the end of the discussion about Three Cups of Tea.  Would that be possible and of interest to others?

Mahlia

[ALF43]

Mahlia- you would have to address questions such as these to the powers that be here at SeniorLearn.
Perhaps Joan Pearson could help you with this question.

I'd truly like to see this topical interaction continue in SeniorLearn when we come to the end of the discussion about Three Cups of Tea.  Would that be possible and of interest to others?

[fairanna]

I am so glad this book was chosen to be discussed...so many good thoughts and new ideas were uncovered ....I have mentioned reading this book to my poetry group plus some others and I know of at least six who now want to read it as well.. a dear friend and I had lunch today at Cracker Barrel and a woman behind me overheard some of our conversation about feeling a need to respect and help others and joined in our conversation..and we exchanged God Bless yous ...and when we were leaving another  lady who had overheard that stopped to talk to me and we ended up hugging each other and again saying God BLess you ...perhaps that is something we or at least me should do more often ...I have a tendency to speak to strangers ie shop clerks etc and thank them or comment on something special I have overheard them say  ..people in line , clerks etc ...and I can never pass a baby or a small child by without saying hello and telling the parent what a special child they have,...I dont touch them because I dont want them to think I might be some sort of nut ..since I love animals I also admire them and pet them if the owner says it is okay and   in some cases the people I meet become "relatives of my heart"   Thank God for GM and for this discussion...GOD BLESS ALL