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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/index.htm#contents) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | December 09....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab22.htm)
January 06.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 13.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 20.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
January 27.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 04.....Taliesin
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Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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And so we start our journey into the Middle Ages with a group of stories under the title The Mabinogion.
Planning how to read the book it seemed reasonable that one chapter a week would work - now after reading some for myself I realize we have our work cut out for us - The annotated notes by Lady Charlotte Guest are not just wonderful but necessary to understand the references that would easily go right over our heads.
At first I thought 'just read and then go back to the notes' - after the first two paragraphs of The Lady of the Fountain that plan went out the window after seeing how much I miss-understood without the notes. Like the inference of there being no Porter present.
Then referring constantly to the notes I was loosing the story and so for me, I am reading, stopping for each note (of which in some instances there are notes within notes) and then, I read the couple of paragraphs I researched and still it was not enough and so, I have a three read plan - Read, paying attention to all the notes - Then re-read and finally re-read for the third time however, the third time I'm re-reading the paragraphs aloud. Further, reading it allowed I pick up a rhythm that alluded me when I read to myself.
My instinct is telling me that after a quarter of the chapter (story) I will have to go back and read that entire quarter section aloud in order to really grasp what the scene is all about - so many names and places that I had not heard of that are used so casually telling this tale and out of it, to discover the theme or meaning of/for the tale will stretch our mind's eye back many centuries, as we continue the legacy of reading and telling these legends and myths, I can now more easily see that we travel back into the inner mind of long ago ancestors.
Now font size - I found on my computer - not sure of formal names but on top is where I have my 'toolbar' that includes site information and an icon for my history etc. and I do have a separate search window - at the end of all that on the right side are 3 horizontal bars that when I put my curser on the 3 bars it says 'open menu' - when I open it there are many options including the amount of zoom - when I hit zoom it increased the size of my fonts from 100% by 10% with each tap till I have found a comfortable size for reading - I did find that everytime I open a new topic or page on the computer I have to readjust the zoom.
Hopefully everyone can adjust the size of the font on their computer - I find by changing the font size to the common size 12 pts using the links above our posts that allows the font size to be altered, that change is much too large for me and take up so much window space I have to struggle to read a post written using that way to alter the font size -
We all want to be comfortable - In the past the Senior Learn site had a way to consistently and individually alter font size but that service is no longer available- Jane gave us this link to help:
https://www.techlicious.com/tip/how-to-make-text-larger/
Please we want everyone to be comfortable so lets see what we can do... there has to be a way for everyone to read posts easily.
If reading, what amounts to a short story each week becomes daunting, we can change our schedule but, let's try this first chapter (short story) and see how it goes.
I do not know if these stories are built on one another or if they are independent of each other - If independent it makes it easy for anyone to join us anytime while we are reading-
This is going to be a new experience for us --- together we can read The Mabinogion where as, on our own we may have passed and not tackled all these names and places and huge difference in time and culture - I'm excited and will be thankful for everyone's contribution - I could be wrong but, I am thinking those of you who read fantasy may be more familiar with some of these names and places if not the manner or style used to tell a story. All I know, the idea of reading a chapter before hand went out the window for me - I'm leaning on y'all.
OK let the stories begin....
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Yikes!
I was going to start reading this yesterday, but forgot.
Don't know yet if this dictionary will help yet or not. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19704/19704-h/19704-h.htm
Also, a summary of the story courtesy of BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/myths_owain.shtml
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Frybabe, I've been meaning to ask you if you or any of your family speaks Welsh. The few times I've heard it, spoken by friends, it had such a lovely, soft liquid music to it.
Thanks for the link. I'm glad to see that I didn't misunderstand the story, and it clarified a few things.
It's only the three of us so far. We can go at whatever pace we like.
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Good morning - I had hoped to join this and read the first story, but after looking at the admin post, I can see I have the wrong edition. I do have the one translated by Lady Guest but there are no notes appended except for a brief seven at the end of Taliesin. Can someone let me know which edition I should purchase? Thanks.
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It looks as though I hadn't noticed that everything is included(including all the notes) on this site. Thank you for this. I will now read the notes as well. Is this the case for each book you are reading? I'm so used to purchasing books for a book club.
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Welcome marmieone - glad you found us - this book just happens to be on the web - many that are at least 50 years old can be found if no where else with Gutenburg - in fact mamieone there are several editions of this book available on the web - this one not only had notes but it was an attractive reproduction - however the notes were the most important - newer books we try to wait till they are in the library and available used - Yep we are a frugal bunch - always have been... ;)
Also another change - we used to have a series of questions for the pages we were reading that week but with just a few of us we will eke the information alluded to in these chapters and add any supporting information - so come along and add to our journey - its been awhile since we read stories going back into the medieval.
Frybabe looks like you found two good links - have not explored them yet - just got in here and I will explore both this afternoon - I'm still reading the chapter that for me is slow going.
Pat yes, with a few of us reading Mabinogion we can set our own pace - I feel sure once we get into it or maybe it is me, that reading the stories will be easier... this one I feel like I need a play card to remember who is who... In fact I may do just that.
OK important to me - has everyone found a way to make their font size work - please, if not, we need to figure that out -
Ok the Porter had me - I'm thinking how today there is a porter dressed in livery at the door of a nice hotel, who sees to your luggage but then there is also the school porter or hall porter who are cleaning and maintenance personal then there are porters who carry loads of supplies for those climbing the highest peaks of the world - so I looked further and learned this tidbit.
“Porter means two different jobs in the Middle Ages.
The first and simplest is—a common, unskilled laborer who loads and unloads things, and often carries them over distances.
The second meaning comes from Latin port, which means “door.” This porter was an very important person, for he decided who was allowed into a lord’s hall. He stood guard there, not as a soldier, but as an interviewer who questioned the identity of anyone that he did not know who wished to enter. If the person’s business was unimportant he was refused, and if the timing was wrong, he was refused."
Another gave as an example, "from Culhwch and Olwen where the porter doesn’t allow Culhwch into the hall, where the meal has already begun. Culhwch then threatens to curse everyone in the hall, so the porter goes and reports to the king what has transpired. Arthur replies:
“Man, if you came in here walking, you better go out of here running and invite that fellow in!”
Culhwch turns out to be Arthur’s cousin, requesting a ritual haircut (indicating basically initiation into manhood) and asking the king to help him acquire Olwen as his wife by fulfilling a large series of magical tasks that culminate with seizing a comb and scissors from the gigantic, supernatural Troit Boar."
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Frybabe manna - just reviewed both links - yes, to start off having the story simplified is helpful - not sure if I can change my 3 read pattern yet but it helps - and the dictionary Wow...
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aha - several of us are having difficulty with the name of the book and thanks to Frybabe's dictionary I found a definition and then online found the use of the ion suffex
Mabinog, a. juvenile, infantine
Mab, n. a male: a boy; a son
-on/-ion plurals
mab (sing.) – meibion (pl.) 'son/sons'
The -ion suffix can usually be predicted for the following types of noun:
Nouns ending in -og denoting persons. Examples:
swyddog > swyddogion 'officer/officers'
tywysog > tywysogion 'prince/princes'
from this I am deducing that Mabinog is a juvenile, or possibly a young son where as, Mabinogion is the plural meaning juveniles. So then the question is who are the juveniles or are the stories from so early in the history of the land considered juvenile denoting early history - since these were oral before written my guess is that men were the carriers of the oral story telling tradition - certainly would fit the concept of the Bard who sang the early myths and legends.
hmm more to ponder - put Mabinog in the online Welsh to English dictionary and the translation is sonorous meaning --- capable of producing a deep or ringing sound --- (of a speech or style) using imposing language.
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Hi Marmieone. Welcome aboard!
For those that want to hear Welsh pronunciation, there are tutorials up on YouTube that I haven't had a chance to listen to. Also, don't forget Google's audio translator. I am on the computer without my audio hooked up, so I can't listen to any of it just now. I will have to force myself to drag out my external speakers again and hook them up. Hopefully, the cats will leave the wires alone now. Chewy little buggers they are.
PatH, Mom was brought up when they were still discouraging use of the Welsh language. She knew very little, but certainly could pronounce those double L's. I thought it sounded almost like clearing one's throat. I never could get the hang of rolling my R's. I never got around to learning the language.
Well, I haven't got but a few lines in and already I found something interesting. It appears, just like in ancient China, when one receives guests or visitors, one has them bathe and then new clothes are given to them to wear. In China, I got the impression that the new clothes were gifted to the visitor. I can see that it certainly solves the problem of carrying lots of baggage with you and makes sure you are dressed appropriately for the occasion. In ancient China, proper clothing to the occasion was an important part of good manners and avoided insult to the host.
My downloaded copy of The Mabinogion seems to have disappeared. I don't remember deleting it. Oh, well, that is easily fixed.
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Interesting frybabe about the new clothes - sure takes away the smells of riding through the countryside from place to place.
Sad phase in our history that so many do not share easily their parents language because of repression - your Mom is among that group - sad...
Trying to understand who some of these characters are telling the story and found this tidbit "Yvain is the cousin of Gawain and the son of Morgan le Fay and Uriens. As Owain, he appears in the Welsh tale of The Dream of Rhonabwy and is the hero of the Welsh analogue to Chrétien de Troye's Yvain or the Knight of the Lion. Both Chrétien's tale and the Welsh Owain tell the story of Yvain's (or Owain's) adventures...
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Thinking of those oral storytellers, is it too much of a stretch to think that the "juveniles" were those young men listening to the tales and being inspired to achieve greatness themselves?
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hmm - could it be - sounds like a good possibility marmieone
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Throne Room, also known as the Presence Chamber, where the viceroy or monarch received people, and its significance in the context of wider political, economic, social, and cultural contexts across the centuries.
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So far I've taken a rather relaxed attitude toward the story. I read it, occasionally shifting over to the notes, scanning for something useful, then read Frybabe's retelling. I'll probably go round again, filling in details snd getting everything straight. Some of the notes are very useful. When Owain gets trapped between the portcullis and the gate, a damsel comes up to him and sees his situation:
"Truly," said the damsel, "it is very sad that thou canst not be released, and every woman ought to succour thee, for I never saw one more faithful in the service of ladies than thou. As a friend thou art the most sincere, and as a lover the most devoted."
I thought "how does she know?" Turns out she knew him at King Arthur's Court.
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that is what I am picking up also Pat - it appears the more you know about Arthur and his court and all the personalities-in the Arthur stories the more this story makes sense
The three knights are intimates of Arthur and the more I read the more I learn there is a revelry between Kai and Owain - it seems Owain is the more quiet and self effacing knight, who typically does not go around sharing his dare and do while Kai is very gregarious - seems in historical tradition Owain still has a large hold and affection as a symbol for the Welsh -
From bits I have read in the past about courtly love, it was not the bower and roses of a Romeo and Juliet but typically between a married lady and a knight - not only after their liaison does the lady rule the knight's decisions but he pronounces his love by starving himself and other mortification we typically associate with penance in the Catholic Church at the time.
I'm remembering the movie Camelot and the scene when they are a-Maying - these are the three knights in that scene and so it would be that Guinevere is included in the first scene with her ladies - I'm getting the inference she had more than a liaison with Lancelot but with these knights as well or they are vying for her attention. And so Arthur taking a nap could be a metaphor to his wanting to close his eyes to Guinevere's dalliances.
Looks like another book on Owain was published in the last few years...
https://americymru.net/tags/owain%20glyndwr
oh yes and King Ban of Benoic is more then an ally to Arthur, he is the father of Lancelot.
https://www.nightbringer.se/a_banbenwick.html
this simple story appears to be tangled with far more then what is written on the pages...
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Fun - found this - looks like beef collops is still a dish fixed and served - I wonder - Frybabe do you know - is collops a traditional dish served the Monday before Ash Wednesday in Wales as it appears to be in Scotland - now I am wondering if collops would have been traditional pre Ash Wednesday in the middle ages or before that gives us a timeline to this story?
https://www.lavenderandlovage.com/2018/02/beef-collops-collop-monday.html
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Interesting find that goes with our trying to parse the meaning of Mabinog
"Literary historian Jacques Le Goff (here quoting Georges Duby (a French historian who specialized
in the social and economic history of the Middle Ages. He ranks among the most influential medieval
historians of the twentieth century and was one of France's most prominent public intellectuals from
the 1970s to his death)) calls attention to a particular group within twelfth century aristocratic society
known simply as ‘youths’ (juvens) in Old French, cnihtes (>‘knights’) in Middle English:
Duby writes: “A youth was in fact a grown man, an adult.
He was admitted to a group of warriors, given arms, and dubbed; in other words
he became a knight… Youth can therefore be defined as the part of life comprised
between dubbing and fatherhood” which could be very long time indeed.
Youths were footloose, vagabond and violent. They were the “leading element in
feudal aggressiveness.” And their long, adventurous quest –
“a long sojourn shames a young man” – had a purpose: to find a rich mate.
“The intention of marrying seems to have governed all of a young man’s actions,
impelling him to cut a brilliant figure in combat and to show his prowess in athletic
matches”.
Marriage was made more difficult by the proscriptions of the Church, which often
made it impossible to find a bride close to home. Duby himself has noted the
inescapable parallel between this situation and that described in the courtly literature. |
That the heroes of Arthurian Romance (both French and Welsh) can be described in these terms is beyond doubt.
They are almost all represented in the first instance as landless youths, drawn into the ‘warrior society’ at
the court of Arthur, but subsequently driven to wander further afield. They are driven by a kind of compulsive
restlessness which characterizes feral youth in its quest for material and sexual satisfaction.
The life of these young men, in historical fact as much as in the Romantic imagination, was a complex field
in which bravery and aggression were required to win a place among the settled world of married,
property-holding adults; while at the same time these very same instincts were repeatedly (and necessarily)
curbed by the injunctions of church and feudal bond. "
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A Woodward was a keeper of an entire forest!
Forester was also a title used widely during Medieval times. The forester usually held a position equal to a sheriff or local law enforcer, and he could act as a barrister or arbiter. He was often based in a forester's lodge, and was responsible for patrolling the woodlands on a lord or noble's property, hence the synonymous term 'woodward'.
His duties included negotiating sales of lumber and timber and stopping poachers from illegally hunting. Frequently outlaws would take refuge in heavily wooded regions. When this occurred it was the duty of the forester to organize armed posses to capture or disperse the criminals and during war time foresters were used as scouts to spy on enemy troop movement. The pay and status of foresters was usually above average, reflecting the responsibility of their role in a medieval environment and economy.
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Barb, I have never heard of Collop Monday. Bellamarie may know a little about when it became a "thing". Best I can tell, the meal consists of a variety of meats, eggs, butter and such that are forbidden during lent.
Geoffrey of Monmouth is credited with bringing us the legend of King Arthur and making it popular. Geoffrey was a Welsh cleric living in the early 12th century. He got his information about Arthur from early historians such as the Venerable Bede (c. 673 CE - 735 CE), and Gildas (c. 500-570 CE)who wrote of a Welsh war-lord who defeated the Saxons at Badon Hill. Nennius, writing in the early 9th century, however, appears to have been the first to elevate Arthur to national hero status. The Battle of Badon Hill happened somewhere around 460 CE. King Arthur and companions lived in the Early Medieval period, whereas much of what we read and see of the King Arthur legend seems to be set in the Middle to High Medieval period. I think that is because the High Medieval period was much more showy what with their expensive clothing, jousts and knights in shining armor, and of course, the concept of courtly love (originally a literary fiction begun in the early 12th century and later became fashionable during the High Medieval Age). Lady Charlotte Guest got her tales from the Red Book of Hergest (stories and poems complied around 1382) which Ioan (John) Tegid helped her translate. So, I am thinking a lot of the old stories and tales were "moderized" for the current readers of the day.
Must soon go feed George's cats.
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The Oxford English Dictionary has almost two columns on collops. Collops can be slices of bacon (this would be the English bacon, which is lean, like ham) fried with eggs, and that's what they are on Collop Monday, the day before Shrove Tuesday. They also are slices of meat for broiling or frying, or the broiled slices, and that's surely what they are here. Gantz, in the hardback I have, translates them "chops".
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Frybabe, thanks for the history. So we have earlier tales tales modernized to varying degrees in later Medieval times.
I hadn't realized how much the Mabinogion was interlaced with the Arthur tales, though I think that after the first few, we will get a whole different cast of characters. I was big on the King Arthur tales as a child, getting them from Howard Pyle's books, which were one of our choices. There are four large books of them, full of tales like the one we're reading, heavily sprinkled with Pyle's magnificent pen and ink drawings. I'll have to dredge up my memory of the cast of characters, which is pretty rusty.
Sir Kai, or Kay, was King Arthur's seneschal, or steward.
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Thanks frybabe for the background on the Arthur tales - after getting to know the characters in that first bit I could read the story without all my triple read - it was just that slam dunk with the Arthur stories that like you Pat I read as a child and sorta knew since it was big during and right after the Kennedy administration but this brought the stories characters into my lap and I just could not go forward till I learned who they were and how they related to each other and to Arthur.
Yes that is what I am reading - older stores that were finally written down during the middle ages with some of the cultural differences between when the stories were taking place and were still told by Bards and storytellers to when they were finally put on paper. Of what I knew about the Arthur stories I never pieced it together they were about a time AFTER the Roman conquest of Britain - these stories sound so ancient and in relation to the Romans and even probably many of the Nordic invasions the time of Arthur is not near as old.
Someplace in my reading it said that Gawain was the most written about but never received the attention from readers as did Lancelot.
Found this - I had not heard of the Vulgate Cycle - http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/vulgate.html
I only remember the word Vulgate used as one of the early Latin translated Bibles still housed in the Vatican - evidently these Arthur stories are after, as you shared frybabe, Geoffrey of Monmouth and then there is the connection to Brittany that also brings Chrétien de Troyes' 5 Arthur stories into the cannon -
Does anyone know if Chrétien is a he or a she - some sites refer to this writer as a she and other sites say he? And I had no idea that Joseph of Arimathea is included in the Arthur stories.
There are sure a lot of scholars adding their research and discoveries to the Arthur stories - wow it goes on and on.
Ah so then Collops Monday must be a Scottish thing - the photo of the recipe is not very appetizing to look at - hmm maybe it is one of these comfort foods that taste better then they look. I just never even heard the word - now mead I knew is a fermented drink like beer made from honey - I've seen where you can still purchase mead - never have tried it so maybe it is time - worst is I do not like it and pour it into a saucer to catch unwanted bugs in the garage.
OH oh oh my look at here - the site has a wonderful list of the authors and their books that are part of the cannon on Arthur -tra la - this is great... http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/lib-arthur.html
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aha Pat so he was the seneschal, or steward. Had to look that up and so he pretty much runs the house even with legal status... "A steward, particularly (historical) one in charge of a medieval nobleman's estate. (historical) An officer of the crown in late medieval and early modern France who served as a kind of governor and chief justice of the royal court in Normandy and Languedoc."
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Using a horse block
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/C3XXEW/rider-mounting-a-horse-from-a-mounting-block-C3XXEW.jpg)
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After reading the entire story and all the notes - I am not sure what to make of it - on the surface it appears to be the adventures of Owain however, mentioning extreme unction, one of the seven sacraments and so many things in groups of three, an analogy to the Trinity, I'm thinking there is some Christian message in these stories -
Have any of you figured out if there is a message and what it could be? Or is is just a lot of fanciful happenings - there has to be more or why would this story be included in a collection of stories that are essentially sacred to the Welsh?
Never imagined we would be so deep into the Arthur stories but I sure learned a lot about how they came about however, it is all the names that are overwhelming - I got the first group and have an idea of the personality for each knight but then later there are all the connections with wives and husbands named - you could be days getting that all straight in your mind.
Did find a site explaining the British Triads that kept popping up in the notes... here is the web site - over 120 of these triads that are all established in ancient times.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain
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Here's another source of information for us. I have been trying my best for several years to understand it. I think reading the Mabinognian plus notes is going to help. C. S. Lewis The Allegory of Love. Possibly you have all read it. This is a series of six lectures Lewis gave. He says that it is a study in medieval tradition.
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What a fabulous subject, Barb. Overwhelming. I've just spent an hour at the timelessmyth link you provided in post #22, which provided a further link to the Mabinogion page (halfway down). Awesome. What a heritage of mythical tales! This is going to take some absorbing to comment on it intelligently. A wonderful undertaking!
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Thanks for the C. S. Lewis reference, marm. I love his thoughts on anything.
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Glad to see you drop in Jonathan - yes, if the intelligence is even tap-able with these stories - this is taking us into a very different discussion isn't it - as of now I feel like we are circling the evidence trying to make what we can from what we read much like a small group of scouts on the western plains trying to figure out from a cow pie where the herd has gone.
marmieone I've just spent a lovely hour and a half with Inspector Lewis - seems one in the series was called Allegory of Love and of course writers and professors in the midst of the world of fantasy with lots of connections to C. S. Lewis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy5r_p4wJRE
And then wonders of wonders found the book Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis on line - here we go
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.170836/page/n1
This is brilliant marmieone - you have us stepping into a gold mine.
So far the best I can do is see small lessons in life and character rather than an overall meaningful thesis - one comes across to me is that being a knight means following a code of behavior regardless how difficult or the personal sacrifice.
In some link that I cannot remember which, there was this in the heading ---
The Lady of the Fountain
or
The Solar Hero in the Dark World of Women.
We forget how women were only foils for the hero - our sense of equality really gets in the way of understanding - With all the gold and silver, water cleansing and drying with fine linen cloth and the wearing and supplying silken clothes - was provided by women or magic but did not represent a group of women - a single women could be in the light but a group - no way - and after referring to my book on symbolism a number greater than 18 means 'all of' not just many but, many of the entire substance. And so all those 20 to 24 and 26 damsels represented womanhood. Where as six women assigned to certain tasks represent Harmony, love, health, beauty with the actual number 6 a symbol for the upward stroke of men and the lower circular container of women therefore unified in harmony.
Regardless if early story tellers know the symbolic meaning for numbers they would be a part of the culture that placed women in a 'Dark World' whose task, according to this myth, is to provide a knight with the opportunity to shine as a hero. And here I saw Owain as simply a stubborn knight who was very good on the field - not even thinking it was important for him to be seen as a hero - the knight in shining armor - which my guess is he is a role model as is a hero today just as it was the accepted role for women to prepare a man for his hero role.
No sense having an opinion - all we are doing is saying today's views on the sexes is not only different but yes, we still are bumping up against this 'myth' that seems to be carried in the masculine DNA.
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Recap on the various links brought to our attention during this first chapter
Dictionary of Welsh words.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19704/19704-h/19704-h.htm
A summary of the story courtesy of BBC:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/myths_owain.shtml
Book on Owain was published in the last few years...
https://americymru.net/tags/owain%20glyndwr
Not the Owain of our story The Lady of the Fountain - this is a Welsh hero who came to the aid of Wales in in 1400 when he led a revolt against Britain and even Welsh soldiers fighting in the British army left and came home to Wales to fight with Owain Glyndwr, (Owen Glendower) not Owain son of Uryen Rhegd, (Owain Ab Urien Rheged) a companion to Arthur.
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/Owen-Glendower-Owain-Glyndwr/
King Ban of Benoic is the father of Lancelot.
https://www.nightbringer.se/a_banbenwick.html
Recipe Beef Collops
https://www.lavenderandlovage.com/2018/02/beef-collops-collop-monday.html
Vulgate Cycle
http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/vulgate.html
List of the authors and their books that are part of the cannon on Arthur
http://www.timelessmyths.com/arthurian/lib-arthur.html
The Triads
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Triads_of_Britain
Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.170836/page/n1
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First, thanks to Marmieone for the mention of C. S. Lewis' Allegory of Love. It now resides in my TBR pile. Allegory is not something I ever think of when reading, but after reading a definition of it, I realize that many of the books I read have allegorical elements in them. I can't tell you how often I have run across a scenario in Science Fiction that resembles a moral or political issue in disguise. But then maybe that isn't allegory at all, just projecting today's or history's events and people into the future and changing the names and places of same. Besides, I always thought allegory was more subtle than that. About the time I read Undine by Friedrich Heinrich Karl, Baron de la Motte Fouque, I ran across an essay about Albrecht Dürer's Knight, Death and the Devil as allegory in art. I hope Lewis' book will give me a little better way to spot true allegory, especially the more subtle passages.
Didn't much like the horse getting chopped in half. Yuck! Then we come to the lion. How interesting. A lion in Britain. I wonder just how far back this tale goes and what the lion was back then. But then, the tale's originators could have seen a lion either brought into Britain for gladiatorial games, or described by Roman army veterans who retired to Britain and passed down tales. After the Romans pulled out, were there any private animal collections left there? My mind is running in odd directions this morning.
Thought you might like to see N. C. Wyeth's art for A Boy's King Arthur (an adaptation of Mallory's History of King Arthur and His Knights) by the poet Sidney Lanier. http://collections.brandywine.org/ncwcr/2208/the-boys-king-arthur;jsessionid=26CDFB7A8463EA2985ECFA3A77008A8C/objects
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I've just discovered that Audible has The Mabinogion, both Sioned Davies translation and Lady Charlotte Guest's translation. I have the Davies one added to my wishlist. It also has Le Morte D'Arthur. Since I never read that and the narrator seems good, I have that also on my wishlist.
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What a treat frybabe - the illustrations brought me back to my childhood - I loved books filled with adventure even though back then the action was male dominated - I could still see myself as the hero and never did identify with the damsel in distress even while reading the Leatherstocking Tales - so many of the really good books were illustrated by Wyeth. Interesting, those books with the Wyeth illustrations held up so much better - I have books like the full story of Black Beauty and a few others that I dare not even open the covers any longer - last time I did around 20 years ago the pages were so brittle they were about to disintegrate - they are past the tear easily stage.
aha you have sent me on a search frybabe - I remember my grandmother telling me the story of Undine when I was a young child - as my memory floated in I could hear her and it was in German - found the story written in German on Amazon and thought I could download the audio version but I do not own any of the devises that would accept the audio - finally it hit and yep, found it on YouTube - several versions in fact - so with German print version that I ordered for my kindle and the youtube readings I may be able to access more of my German centered memory - and if all else fails I have the English translation that I can compare to the German - I've got my work cut out - thanks this is great... a new project.
What I need to do after your saying you want another translated version by another author of the Mabinogion I know I have various texts of the Arthur stories - I need to gather them into one spot and see exactly what I have - I know there is Mallory's translation and other more contemporary volumes but have no idea of what.
Remember when Joseph Campbell was all the rage - seems to me he had something to say about the Welsh and about Arthur - I got rid of so many of the books he published but I think I still have The Power of Myth - I did have but maybe it is still in some drawer The Hero with a Thousand Faces - another venture to add to my list - since I am trying to clear out this house it easily fits.
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I remember the big rave over Joseph Campbell. Wasn't there a TV series with him narrating? Oh, yes! I just looked it up. He did a series of six interview style, one-hour shows with Bill Moyers. Wikipedia lists a bunch of audio recordings he did starting way back before 1970. I wonder if they are available on archive.org or elsewhere. I never got past Edith Hamilton's Mythology when I was young.
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Wow, there's so much going on I don't even know where to start. I want to leap on my horse and ride off in all directions, and unfortunately it's a weekend filled with inescapable chores. I've got to get hold of the C. S. Lewis. Thank you, marmieone.
Frybabe, you're actually getting down to the story! The incident of the horse is yucky, but it also contained a line I found funny. Here's Owain, trapped between two gates, sitting on half a dead horse, surrounded by enemies, " and Owain was in a perplexing situation". I think I might be a bit perplexed too.
I think you're right that the lion comes from the Roman influence. The myth-tellers needn't have ever seen one; the knights slew dragons too. Here's a nice one.
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/image/pyle-launcelot-slayeth-worm (https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/image/pyle-launcelot-slayeth-worm)
Incidentally our lion is black, but he's white in my hardback. Gantz explains: he's black in the Red Book, and white in the White book.
Gantz also mentions the motif of triads, as well as a motif of regeneration throughout.
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Pat all I could think of was Harry Potter and his invisible cape -
Trying to make heads and tails from this story I vacillate back and forth from taking it at face value as a fantasy with its only meaning, how the characters behave as a peek into the behavior of the middle ages since, the stories may have taken place earlier and are partly an oral tradition the authors are writing during the 12th to 15th century and they cannot escape their culture - plus, I am seeing an over-riding Christian influence that would not have been the mindset during the 6th century when most of this is supposed to have happened.
Some place I read this sharing of the story is happening at the start of Pentecost.
The day of Pentecost is noted in the Christian Church as the day
on which the Spirit descended upon the apostles, and on which,
under Peter's preaching, so many thousands were converted in Jerusalem |
Wikipedia says in essence - "Christianity arrived in Wales sometime in the Roman occupation, but
it was initially suppressed. The first Christian martyrs in Wales was
about AD 304. By the end of the 4th century, Christianity became the sole
official religion of the Roman Empire.
As the Roman legions withdrew in the early 5th century, invading tribes
including the Christian Angles and Saxons, were unable to make inroads
except possibly along the Severn Valley as far as Llanidloes"
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And so what has Pentecost got to do with all these damsels and a lion and a horse cut in half and invisibility and hail from water on a marble slab and and and...
Trying to decide if I want a copy of An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J. C. Cooper for my kindle and downloaded a Sample - included in the sample is the word Animal - a few bits that help me out with the story...
"Friendship with animals and ability to communicate with them symbolizes
the restoration of, and re-entry into, the paradisal state, the Golden Age.
Animals accompanying or helping man on quests depict the different aspects of
his own nature, or the instinctive and intuitive forces of nature as distinct from
the intellect, will and reason.
Animals which must be slain or tamed, in myth and legend, are man’s animal
instincts brought under control." |
Then I turned to my book and looked up Horse - lots of symbolism so I looked at both Celtic and Christian -
Celtic particular forms of horses had a death
symbolism where as, the horse in general can be solar as
virility and fecundity
Christian the horse is, Sun, Courage, generosity |
--- and so those qualities are cut in half by a gate.
A Gate symbolizes communication between one world
and another, entry into a new life, associated with wisdom." |
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Ah, so it might not be a real lion but represent maybe lionhearted? Brave, courageous, bold. Not sure about the horse, but the gate could represent a rite-of -passage type of thing considering the Christian symbolic take on gates.
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That's what I am getting as well Frybabe - it is like the lesson or story starts with the dropping of the gate - need to check out the story again but it seems to me up till that point he is full of vim and vigor going after something and then his vim and vigor changes to a loyalty first to the lady and later to Arthur and then back to the lady - I wonder if the lady is a symbol for Mary - seems to me I read the cult to the Blessed Virgin Mary started in the middle ages... and so going back to Arthur is like a relapse from a life of Christian something or other... need to re-read and I've some things I need to get done - may carry this over into tomorrow with the new chapter actually starting tomorrow as well
We may at least have a key now to these stories - haha wait and see all we figured out for this one will have nothing to do with the next one - we shall see what we shall see...
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Oh yes - decided to buy and download on my kindle the J.C. Cooper book on symbols - if for no other reason than it is so much easier to read when I can adjust the font and use a black background instead of the white - plus I had some credit because I chose to wait on a delivery of herbs that i use.
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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 04....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 11....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 18....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
November 25....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | December 02....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr
December 09....Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 06.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 13.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
January 20.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
January 27.......Taliesin
|
Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Yikes, new chapter! We haven't even said anything about this chapter yet. I'll get my thoughts together and post them as soon as I can.
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Yes, Pat it took us awhile to get into the story - let's postpone the new chapter till tomorrow - I too have to review the story with the information now about the gate - I need to see if my thought holds if he was a changed person after the gate versus before and if there are any other important symbols that may help us - I think it took us awhile to adjust to the realization this was an Arthur story so all the background on those stories and figuring out who the characters were became an issue - thanks for leaving the post open for the heading -
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An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C. Cooper -
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BUHXG4O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Yes, I purchased the Kindle version so if you do not want to buy a copy and if any of you would like a word looked into please just ask and I will copy from the book
This excerpt is from a protracted explanation with many cultures and many aspects of water like diving into, crossing over, washing, watering the earth, water surround like a moat, on and on all having a slightly different meaning - and so I only copied the over-all symbolic meaning and then anything that pertains to fountains or bowls of water - to rain and the Christian and Celtic symbolism offered.
Water: The waters are the source of all potentialities in existence; the source and grave of all things in the universe; the un-differentiated; the unmanifest; the first form of matter, ‘the liquid of the whole verification’ (Plato). All waters are symbolic of the Great Mother and associated with birth, the feminine principle, the universal womb, the prima materia, the waters of fertility and refreshment and the fountain of life. Water is the liquid counterpart of light. The waters are also equated with the continual flux of the manifest world, with unconsciousness, forgetfulness; they always dissolve, abolish, purify, ‘wash away’ and regenerate; they are associated with the moisture and circulatory movement of blood and the sap of life as opposed to the dryness and static condition of death; they revivify and infuse new life, hence baptism by water or blood in initiatory religions in which the water or blood also washes away the old life and sanctifies the new.
The waters of the Spring, or Fountain of Life, rise from the root of the Tree of Life in the centre of Paradise. As rain, water is the inseminating power of the sky god, fertility. As dew it is benediction and blessing, spiritual refreshment and the light of dawn.
The waters, like the tree, grove, stone, mountain, (the Summit or Hilltop in the story) can represent the cosmos in its entirety. Symbols of the life-giving, life-destroying, separating and uniting powers of the waters...
Celtic: The waters, lakes, sacred wells, etc. have magical properties and are the dwelling place of supernatural beings, such as the Lady of the Lake; they also give access to the other world, and the powers of the waters represent other-world wisdom and the foreknowledge of the gods. Tir-nan-og, the Celtic Paradise, the land of the ever-young, is either beyond, or under, the waters or, like the Green Isle, surrounded by water.
Christian: The waters of regeneration; renewal; cleansing; sanctification; refreshment; baptism. A spring of water depicts Christ as the fountain of life; the fountain, or living spring also represents the Virgin Mary, who is also the waters as the womb of creation.
Ice: Rigidity; frigidity; brittleness; impermanence. Ice represents the gross waters of the earth as opposed to the ‘fresh’ and living waters of the fountain of Paradise. It also denotes hardness of heart; the coldness and absence of love.
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Giant: The brute forces of nature; primordial power and forces; the elemental; darkness; night; winter. The giant can be beneficent or malefic, a defender or an enemy.
Pine: Uprightness; straightness; vitality; fertility; strength of character; silence; solitude; phallic. As evergreen it signifies immortality. It was thought to preserve the body from corruption, hence its use for coffins and its presence in cemeteries; it is apotropaic.
Wow - the whole thing about trees - is this what the story is reaching to express?
This is long so again I am only copying whatever could be pertinent to the grove of green trees.
Symbols of the tree are the pillar, post, notched pole, a branch, etc., all of which are often accompanied by a serpent, bird, stars, fruit and various lunar animals. Trees bearing life-foods are always sacred, such as the vine, mulberry, peach, date, almond and sesame.
Tree: The whole of manifestation; the synthesis of heaven, earth and water; dynamic life as opposed to the static life of the stone. Both an imago mundi and axis mundi, the ‘Tree in the midst’ joining the three worlds and making communication between them possible, also giving access to solar power; an omphalos; a world centre.
The tree also symbolizes the feminine principle, the nourishing, sheltering, protecting, supporting aspect of the Great Mother, the matrix and the power of the inexhaustible and fertilizing waters she controls; trees are often depicted in the style of a female figure.
Rooted in the depth of the earth, at the world centre, and in contact with the waters, the tree grows into the world of Time, adding rings to manifest its age, and its branches reach the heavens and eternity and also symbolize differentiation on the plane of manifestation.
An evergreen tree represents everlasting life, undying spirit, immortality. A deciduous tree is the world in constant renewal and regeneration, dying-to-live, resurrection, reproduction, the life principle. Both are a symbol of diversity in unity, the many branches rising from one root and returning again to unity in the potentiality of the seed of the fruit on those branches.
Symbols of the tree are the pillar, post, notched pole, a branch, etc., all of which are often accompanied by a serpent, bird, stars, fruit and various lunar animals. Trees bearing life-foods are always sacred, such as the vine, mulberry, peach, date, almond and sesame.
Celtic: Various trees are sacred: the oak, beech, hazel, ash, yew; the Druidic oak and mistletoe represent the male and female powers. Esus appears with the willow tree. The Gaulish alder and yew are sacred, as are the Irish holly and yew, and the Gaelic rowan, which also has magical powers. Kentigern, or Mungo, is associated with the tree.
Christian: As putting forth both good and evil fruits, the tree is an image of man; as renewal through Christ’s death on the cross it is resurrection. The tree of the cross was symbolically made from the wood of the Tree of Knowledge, so that salvation and life were fulfilled on the tree through which had come the Fall and death, the vanquisher vanquished. The cross is sometimes identified with the Tree in the Midst, the vertical axis of communication between heaven and earth.
Medieval Christian symbolism has a Tree of the Living and Dead, bearing good and bad fruit on opposite sides and portraying good and evil deeds, with Christ as the trunk, the unifying Tree of Life, which is also depicted as the central of the three crosses on Calvary.
Birds: Transcendence; the soul; a spirit; divine manifestation; spirits of the air; spirits of the dead; ascent to heaven; ability to communicate with gods or to enter into a higher state of consciousness; thought; imagination.
Birds frequently accompany the Hero on his quest or in slaying the dragon. Flocks of birds are magic or supernatural powers connected with gods or heroes.
Celtic: Ambivalent as both divinity and the happy otherworld, or as magic power and malevolence... Birds are also messengers of the gods.
Christian: Winged souls; the spiritual; souls in Paradise. The Christ Child is often depicted holding a bird.
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OK I think we got it - this is a spiritual quest - lots more symbols but unless you ask, onward to the change after the gate
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whoops couldn't pass this up - justifies what you shared frybabe about the gate as a passage
Castle: Shares the symbolism of the enclosure and of the walled and defended city and represents the difficult to obtain; spiritual testing. It usually holds some treasure or imprisoned person and is inhabited by a monster or wicked person who must be overcome to obtain the treasure or release the imprisoned, which depicts the treasure of esoteric knowledge or spiritual attainment. BRIDGE symbolism (q.v.) is also involved in crossing the moat to the castle.
Bridge: Communication between heaven and earth, one realm and another; uniting man with the divinity. In rites of PASSAGE (q.v.) it is the transition from one plane to another; the passage to reality. In the primordial state, in the Golden Age, man could cross at will, as there was no death; the bridge is now crossed only at death, or in mystical states, or in initiation ceremonies, or by solar heroes. In crossing the perilous bridge man proves he is a spirit and returns to the lost Paradise.
Yep, our Owain is a solar hero.
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Nail: A symbol of the Cosmic Axis. It also shares the symbolism of binding and is fate and necessity.
Interesting - this is the first I ever heard that a loosing knight is sold
And of course we all know the symbolism of the number 3 - from the British Triads to the Trinity. Goodness there are three's all over the place...
Christian: The Trinity, the soul, the union of body and soul in man and in the Church. There are three gifts of the Magi to Christ as God-King-Sacrifice; three figures of transformation, temptations, denials by Peter, crosses on Calvary, days of the death of Christ, appearances after death, Marys, and the qualities, or theological virtues, of Faith, Hope and Love.
The only difference in the Christian versus the Celtic is the book says, three is a particularly significant number in Celtic tradition.
Balm/Balsam: Love; sympathy; rejuvenation.
And so it appears we have penance as he wondered to a summit and allowed himself to be mal-nurished, with clothes in taters and then when he hits bottom along come the maidens who rejuvenate him. During the middle ages we know that penance often meant living for a time in sack-cloth and ashes in prayer so this would fit.
Appears to be a redemption element to the story...
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SEVEN: The number of the universe, the macrocosm. Completeness; a totality. With the three of the heavens and the soul and the four of the earth and the body, it is the first number which contains both the spiritual and temporal. It is perfection; security; safety; rest; plenty; reintegration; synthesis, also virginity and the number of the Great Mother. There are seven cosmic stages, heavens, hells, major planets and metals of the planets, circles of the universe, rays of the sun, ages of man, pillars of wisdom, lunar divisions of the rainbow, days of the week, notes of the scale, wonders of the world etc. The seventh ray of the sun is the path by which man passes from this world to the next.
Christian: God is represented by the seventh ray in the centre of the six rays of creation. There are seven sacraments; gifts of the spirit; the seven of the 3 + 4 theological and cardinal virtues; deadly sins; tiers or mountains in Purgatory; liberal arts; crystal spheres containing the planets; major prophets; angels of the Presence; devils cast out by Christ; period of fasting and penitence; joys and sorrows of Mary; champions of Christendom; councils of the early Church.
Beechen - consisting of or made of wood of the beech tree.
Beech Tree: Prosperity; divination. Sacred to Zeus. Emblem of Denmark.
Lion: Ambivalent as both solar and lunar, good and evil. As solar it represents the heat of the sun, the splendour and power of the noonday sun; the fiery principle; majesty; strength; courage; fortitude; justice; law; military might; the King of the Beasts; but it is also cruelty; ferocity; and the sub-human modes of life; it is a symbol of war and an attribute of war gods. As lunar it is the lioness accompanying the Great Mother, or drawing her chariot, and typifying the maternal instinct...
Christian: Ambivalent as both Christ’s power and might, his kingly nature as the Lion of Judah, or the power of Christ to deliver the Christian from the lion’s mouth which is the Devil as ‘a roaring lion’. The lion was supposed to sleep with its eyes open, hence it depicted vigilance, spiritual watchfulness and fortitude; as a sentinel it supported the pillars of the Church. It was also believed that the cubs were born dead and life was breathed into them by the sire, (tra la I think this is it )... hence the lion as a symbol of resurrection. As a solitary animal it signified the hermit and solitude. The lion was taken as the emblem of St Mark since his gospel emphasized the royalty and majesty of Christ. It is also an emblem of SS Adrian, Euphemia, Jerome, Mary of Egypt, Paul the Hermit, Prisca, Thecla. In catacomb paintings the story of Daniel in the lions’ den is symbolic of God’s redemption of his people.
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GREY: The neutral; mourning; depression; ashes; humility; penitence.
Christian: Death of the body and immortality of the soul; hence the colour worn by religious communities.
Rock: Permanence; stability; reliability; rigidity; coldness and hardness. The Living Rock is man’s primordial self.
Christian: Christ is the rock, the source of living waters and the pure river of the Gospels. The rock is also strength, refuge, steadfastness; it is a symbol of St Peter.
A Roebuck is a male Deer. The roe deer is relatively small, reddish and grey-brown, and well-adapted to cold environments.
Deer: Frequently depicted with the Tree of Life.
Celtic: Deer are the supernatural animals of the fairy world and are fairy cattle and divine messengers. Deer skin and antlers are ritual vestments.
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Now what this last bit is all about I cannot figure - it to me is like anti-climactic - what is the reason for this castle and the 2 sons and the giant and the savage black man and the 24 damsels being returned to Arthur - maybe I am tired if the story - but it was as if the story needed a better editor and yet, it was passed down for hundreds of years so it must have some value... Can any of you make any sense out of it...
I guess to be fair I should show the symbolic meaning for the number 2
TWO: Duality; alternation; diversity; conflict; dependence; otherness; the static condition; the rooted, hence balance, stability; reflection; the opposite poles; the dual nature of man; desire, since all that is manifest in duality is in pairs of opposites. As one represents a point, so two signifies length. The Binary is the first number to recede from Unity, hence it also symbolizes sin which deviates from the first good and so denotes the transitory and corruptible.
Christian: Christ with two natures as God and man.
Son: The double; the living image; the alter ego.
Giant: The brute forces of nature; primordial power and forces; the elemental; darkness; night; winter. The giant can be beneficent or malefic, a defender or an enemy.
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I keep getting an error message when I try to download The Mabinogion from this site's link, so I went into Amazon.com and bought a Kindle version that turns out to have no annotation. Could you please suggest a version on Amazon that is annotated? I don't care if it's hardback, paperpack or what, just so it's annotated. I can't tell from the Amazon website if any of these is annotated. Can you help me? Thanks,
SouthernLady1848
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Oh my - first welcome Southern Lady 1948 - I was just on the site and after reading your post I went in again but as you say it is showing not available - I think it is probably a temporary issue - the web site that we have used with this and many more books is www.sacred-texts.com - which is too big a web site to have all the books unavailable --- as to an annotated edition on Amazon I never found one - and so this site was a God Send - now the book without annotations is available in the Gutenberg Library
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5160/5160-h/5160-h.htm
whoops Southern Lady you may want to try again - after putting in www.sacred-texts.com the site popped up and then I filled in on the site Mabinogion and voila - need to try it again with our link - the link may need to be refreshed
but this is what is on my computer
https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm
I too searched and searched on Amazon - even the books and their Kindle with Lady Charlotte's translation did not have the annotations that are offered on the sacred-texts site.
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tra la - yes, they had changed some of the URL and so the current correct URL is now linked in the heading - looks like something I need to keep up with... please if any of you notice the link not working let me know - here it was less than a half hour since I was in using the old link and I could not access the book.
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OK it appears the format for the book has changed - rather than opening to a page with everything under each chapter it appears the next link is now at the bottom of the page - example - after reading the entire story for chapter one than at the bottom is the link to the notes - lots more manipulating this site --- oh wait - now it is not letting me go to the other chapters - I sure hope they are not removing this and only showing the one chapter - the link to the Amazon version of the book does not link to any thing
we may be having to change our plan and either use the Gutenberg without annotations or maybe I can find this on Amazon - shoot shoot shoot
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Ok the only thing on Amazon I could find by Lady Charlotte is this -
The Mabinogion (Xist Classics) Kindle Edition
by Lady Charlotte Guest (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015WRYS4O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I have not had a chance to look to see if it is as the web site with annotations - I've my groceries coming - bear with us please
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FOUND IT - it appears to be an exact copy of what Sacred Texts had on their web page - it is a kindle version cost $1.99
https://www.amazon.com/MABINOGION-Hergest-Century-manuscript-Medieval-ebook/dp/B01M1JTJNY/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=The+Mabinogion+Lady+Charlotte+Guest+annotated&qid=1571694271&s=books&sr=1-3#reader_B01M1JTJNY
there does not appear to be a hard or softback copy with annotations on Amazon
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Sacred Texts is defiantly working on their web site - just tried again and could not get in - let's see what happens - hopefully it will come back and there will be a way I can contact them to see what is happening and if we will be able to use their site to read the book - the same annotated publication, a kindle version is available - let's find out where we are - if everyone can get the kindle version and if not do we go forward without annotations and use the Gutenberg online or does your library have a copy - I know frybabe has another translation on her book shelf - “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”
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Got it! And it is annotated! Now, not to be picky, but the font is green, and using a black background doesn't help my eyes. It seems that somewhere in the many pages of notes I've read today I saw something about changing the appearance of the font. Is there some way to make the font black?
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Barb-It always happens that when i feel guilty about having so many books around, that I spot another one that is a "must have!" That illlustrated Encyclopedia of Symbols will be on my kindle shortly.
I have been watching the comments on the gate chopping the horse in half and it did make me wonder if there was a hesitation on the part of the rider - should I go forward or back? Is it a concern with his courage or lack of knowledge of the unknown? In the stories so far there doesn't seem to be much hesitation - the knight simply must have a quest no matter the cost. At any rate, the horse-chopping bit was startling.
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I did purchase the copy by Lady Guest as listed on Amazon. It has no annotations until Taliesin and only had seven minimal ones for that. I was pretty disappointed until I saw that you had posted the notes for each one on this site.
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marmieone I loved what you saw in the story
"on the gate chopping the horse in half and it did make me wonder if there was a hesitation on the part of the rider - should I go forward or back? Is it a concern with his courage or lack of knowledge of the unknown? "
Never thought of that but wow - what a message -
And yes, I know... the books... this one is like a dictionary when we are reading serious literature - I've had my copy for at least 25 to 30 years - Amazing what we miss because in our culture today we do not put a lot of thought into symbolic language - ha we do not anylonger even have a barber pole to alert us to where to get your hair cut and a shave.
OK Looked a bit ago and the book is still online with Sacred Text and so are Lady Charlotte's notes - just showing in a different format - I put the changed link in the heading and it appears what I am going to have to do is get the link for each chapter in the heading so that when you click on the name of the story for that chapter it will be a link to the chapter.
I'll put together a large font size emergency notice tomorrow to alert everyone the change Sacred Text made to their web site - So we will still have access as we did - thank goodness
talk about having several arms - all this was happening and then my grocery order from Whole Foods did not have several items and you have to accept or decline the change they were offering online - I do not have a cell that does all that so I had to keep switching web sites on this computer - Then had Citi Bank on the line trying to help me stop some company in Connecticut from sending and charging my account for these magazines that I had called about to Amazon that started this whole thing, to the subscription department of each magazine and the publishers and to my credit card and tonight we decided the best thing is to issue me a new card and of course I will not show it on Amazon which will be a problem but I cannot keep getting magazines that I did not authorize - all that and I'm supposed to be retired - reminded me of closing a transaction with lender, title company, inspector and the other agent all on the line at once.
OK I am breathing again - thank goodness there is something on our PBS channel tonight- Hathaway and Shakespeare and something about Paradise, a Brit something in the Caribbean -
looks like I had no choice today to continue - I am the world's worst for putting off what is new especially if I have to ask someone for something so your observation about the horse and the gate was just what I needed to hear. Thanks
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Oh dear Southern Lady I completely missed your post from last evening about the font being green - are you talking about the font on the kindle - if so I think the kindle font color, background color and size of font are all changed on the kindle as opposed to on your computer even if you are reading the kindle downloaded book on your computer. - let me check out my copy and see what I can tell you...
OK I looked at my kindle copy and yes, green on black is not a fun way to read is it... the change must be made on that kindle page - up on top you should see a link with a double Aa - choices are limited and it does not look like there is a choice of font color and so I changed my background from black to sepia and automatically the font turned black - not bad - however, that change affects all the books - and so I have to decide if when I read another book if I want to switch back to the black - means a lot of switching - so we shall see what we shall see over the next few months
I am hopeful that I can go back and read on the Sacred Text site but that will not be as smooth as it was either- the Gods are not with us... maybe it is our Knightly challenge ;)
I am so glad you are joining us - the read is a bit different however, we have done this period in the past - I remember especially our reading Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and we did Seamus Heaney's Beowulf when his translation first hit the bookshelves - so we should enjoy ourselves.
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Hear ye! Hear ye!
Yesterday afternoon - in fact while Southern Lady was attempting to read Mabinogion online using our link to the web site, Sacred texts, the website said she could not access and then later after I tried the main URL, the book popped up but was changed and I was limited to only having access to the first chapter.
Obviously they were changing their site as we were trying to access it...
Looked into the book with annotations on Amazon and found the exact copy of what we have been reading on Sacred Texts however, the book can still be read online on the Sacred Texts website including the notes however, there are changes.
To make easier the changes which include, rather than an linkable index with all aspects of each chapter showing in one place - now we must read or scroll the entire chapter-story till at the bottom of the last page of the story there is a link to the notes.
My plan is to let the website, Sacred Texts settle down and then to link the beginning of each chapter to the heading so that the name of the story in our heading will be a link to the chapter.
As of now there is no linkable index or chapter content for Mabinogoion on the Sacred Texts website version - it is as reading a book, page after page with no indexed chapter - it appears everything is there - just in a new format with a new URL link.
It will take a day or so to work out the changes and so... dah dah dah daahh... we will not start the second Chapter till Friday and we could just wait and start the next chapter on Monday, October 28 - y'all decide... - As soon as I can, I will change what ever must be changed in the heading - so please bare with us.
In the meantime we were slow getting into the first story as we circled and circled what we were reading and found out more about the Arthur stories. However, blessings in disguise, we can take time to share our thoughts about this first story while the Sacred Text website settles down and I can make the necessary changes.
If you prefer, Amazon has this annotated version only for the kindle - not available as either a hardback or softback book version. There are other translation. Also, there are other kindle additions of the translation made by Lady Charlotte Guest however, the wording of the translations is not the same and none of them, regardless the translator have these more extensive annotations
Here is the link to the Kindle version of the book we have been reading online on the Sacred Text web page. I believe on Amazon the cost of this Kindle version is $1.99
https://www.amazon.com/MABINOGION-Hergest-Century-manuscript-Medieval-ebook/dp/B01M1JTJNY/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=The+Mabinogion+Lady+Charlotte+Guest+annotated&qid=1571694271&s=books&sr=1-3#reader_B01M1JTJNY
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Brief, but it brings out that the tales were not static. The oral bards, while keeping the basics of the stories, often improvised on the details.
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/The-Mabinogion/
An essay of The Camelot Project at Rochester University. The student author of this article is now or has recently graduated from Yale University with a PhD in Medieval Studies.
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/rider-bezerra-mabinogion-project
I've never been much interested in hidden symbolism. These stories seem to me simply tales to entertain, especially the youngsters. How long they were told and changed over the years before someone (or several someones) wrote them down, and did the original writers also change the narrative some. However, we do know that Christians and pagans did not mix well so hidden symbolism may have crept into the early tales.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Wales https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/life/heritage/a-wonderful-inheritance/1-in-the-beginning/
Now back to the story. I don't know that I could stomach marrying someone who killed my husband. It is not clear to me whether the Lady was fond of her first husband and not, nor wherher or not she followed mourning proticols before marrying Owain. Was there any kind of courtship or simply a quick marriage of convenience? This is about where I left off before starting the next story, I am going back and reading the rest now.
Aside from The Mabinigion I am still listening to How Rome Fell. What an absolute confusion of "Emperors" with all the rapid changes from in the 4th through early 6th centuries. I am getting at or near the point where I want to start paying particular attention for any "Arthurian" type leaders showing up. It seems to me that some of the action in these tales took place on the continent (particularly France) rather than in England. I got the impression from somewhere that Arthur spent some time there, forget where I got that notion. I do not, however, expect to see Goldsworthy commenting on the Arthurian legends.
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Wow frybabe I was hours last night on just the first site - I had no idea about, The National Eisteddfod of Wales Copied from the page it explains the Eisteddfod "dates back to 1176 when it is said that the first Eisteddfod was held. Lord Rhys invited poets and musicians from all over Wales to a grand gathering at his castle in Cardigan. A chair at the Lord’s table was awarded to the best poet and musician, a tradition that continues today in the modern Eisteddfod."
And then a really wonderful article on the Druids - who they were - which I did not know they held such a prestige position in the culture - so much so they did not pay taxes and were more accurately the priests not just those who 'worshiped' for want of a better word.
The site goes on and on with each description linking to something that brings another page of really good information - I have not even yet opened the next link - this is great frybabe.
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Just looked at the second link frybabe - looks like another for tonight because it will take time to read through just that much - seems to me I came across the Camelot site before but totally missed this page - scrolling down there is one of the graphics, a pen and ink sketch, that appears to be two pages holding a long pole in what appears to be the dining hall - can you dope out what they are doing?
As to the symbols the way I look at it they are only secret now because we do not use symbols as we onetime did- or maybe we do but they are so changed that like slang it changes our language with time - I'm still remembering when the sign outside the shoemaker was just a shoe or boot and outside the barber was a red and white pole - even still had up to the early 80s a general store that sold chew with a large wooden Indian, the signal that a store sold tobacco. Kids today have no clue and so that is how I look at symbols in literature. Also I guess having grown up Catholic attending Catholic schools there was a lot of symbolism wrapped in not only the reading material but the devotional practices.
What was really fun for me - back when I got this and three other books on interpreting symbols I used this one and read an entire book by just looking up the symbolic words - bingo it was so easy to see the theme and what it was all about - more fun then trying to dope out what was going on from just reading the text.
One that I have a copy of Nature and Its Symbols show everyword, not only its meaning but the book has at least one but usually more illustrations of famous works of art where the berry or animal or flower, tree, nut or veggie is used to help tell the story that was painted - fascinating - like our deer Much later in history the deer were carved on a frieze that surrounded the walls of a tomb in Italy - seems in the early church a thirsty stag seeking a spring was well known as the believer seeking God and a nearby doe is surrounded by rosebushes in bloom alluding to the Garden of Eden - looking at the photo of the frieze without knowing this I would have no clue except it would be a nice carving that included deer in a scene that highlighted an interesting shaped cross.
Yep, you can see I love looking into symbolism but then without considering any symbolism there are parts of a story that I bet you can share your enjoyment with and how you see the scene fresh from what you read. I did notice this version of the Arthur story was not logically making a lot of sense but, oh the adventure of it - the dare and do, courage and nobility of each character - the world when we like to think folks were all about proving themselves and seeking the best as the code of life.
Sure gave a picture of women when within days or at least only a couple of weeks after the death of her husband she had to have a male champion who would go to battle to protect the castle from take-over and this champion had to be a husband - no feelings, just make it legal in order to keep her home and remain in the castle. Although, later in the story she sounded as if she cared about him.
Trying to figure out the difference between damsels and maidens - toward the end the 24 are called maidens where as throughout the story they are referred to as damsels.
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Wasn't Lancelot from Brittany? Seems to me a few of the early writers who put these stories on paper were French, like Chrétien de Troyes and another very early writer Robert de Boron was French - was this a time when Brittany was all part of England - was this where the Norman influence comes from or is that earlier - do not have set in my mind when the Saxons came - which I know they came to the northern part of England and worked their way south originally from what is now Germany - I think the Danes came earlier - the Vikings raided northern villages mostly in Ireland and Scotland much earlier and the Normans I think mean people from Normandy which is located next to Brittany - Do you know frybabe how all this fits - I remember we studied in second year High School History much about early England but the emphasis for what ever reason was later, on the war of the Roses - ha just thought - of course - it was a Catholic High School and the War of the Roses had everything to do with religion. Haha takes me 70 years to figure that out... oh oh oh.
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I finally found the the edition of Lady Guest's book with a forward by C. E. G. Dowlais dated 1848. The impression I got from the introduction is that Dowlais believed that the early tales were mostly of Welsh origin. At some point the tales made it across the channel, got embellished and retold with a (mainly) French leaning, then after a few hundred years came back across the channel with embellishments and new tales based on similar themes. He based his conclusions on studying names and place names, and the differences between how Welsh and continental (again mostly French) peoples assigned names. He believed that Wales has "strong claims to be considered the cradle of European Romance". I haven't read far into the what the Camelot scholar has to say yet. I hope he addresses this issue of origin. I just kind of thought the tales came across with the Roman Auxiliaries and the Welsh made them their own. I could very well have been the other way around with the Romans taking the tales back to the continent when they left. Mostly though, it probably has a lot to do with the clergy and scribes since they are the ones most likely to write the tales down and take them along when they travel. I recall reading a book years ago called The Flowering of Ireland. It was all about the very early literary tradition of the Island fostered by the early arrival of monks. I still have it. It was a good book; I should read it again sometime.
The knights themselves seem to have come from all over the place. Gawain, for example, seems to have come from the upper reaches of Scotland where his father was King of Orkney and Lothian. Well, I guess that explains why, every once in a while, I see mentions of the possibility that Camelot was in Scotland. In fact, I vaguely remember some years ago that someone thought they found the round table (or the site where it was) in Scotland. Okay, another thing to research.
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I got to wondering about the black lion. Could it be that is was, in fact, a panther? Panthers with a black color variant do exist in Africa and Asia. They would likely been known to Romans who were fond of importing various animals for their private collections and gladiatorial games. Otherwise, there are black-maned lions, but no fully black lions exist except in PhotoShop manipulations.
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Well, it's a fair assumption Owain didn't have Photoshop. ;). Maybe the color is symbolic. It's a white lion in the other book, also improbable.
I wonder if Roman-imported animals sometimes escaped and wandered around for a while before coming to grief.
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One theme of this story is the conflict of duties. By marrying the Countess, Owain takes on the duty of being the black knight of the fountain and defending her lands. But as a knight of the Round Table, he already had duties that lay elsewhere, being part of the court, and doing his share of the quests and fights and peacekeeping of the court. For a while he sticks with the Countess, but eventually can't resist the court, and doesn't return from his supposedly short visit. Finally, he becomes ashamed of his treachery, and eventually goes back, kicks out the usurpers, and takes the Countess back with him to Arthur's court, where she stays, as his wife, for the rest of his life.
But what about her property, which was considerable? Who grabbed it then? She certainly didn't get the bargain she was looking for when she married Owain. Let's hope she loved Owain, liked life at court, and considered it a fair exchange.
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Gantz points out we get another story, that of Geraint and Enid, in which the opposite choice is made, and Geraint neglects his duty in devotion to his lady.
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That is what I get also frybabe - that the stories including the Arthur stories started in Wales and as they were found and written down the writers put their twist on it - one of the book I read said it would be natural that all the story tellers put a twist on the stories - the big difference that I see is, and I wish I could remember the site, but anyhow where Christianity had come to Wales while the Romans were still there after they left the locals would have nothing to do with Christianity - the Pope sent St.Augustine but his influence was in England and could not budge the Welsh who returned to their earlier gods - then the one book said they accepted Christianity in the 6th century while another said the 10th century.
For my two cents this to me is a valuable difference since I read these stories with a strong Christian influence that I bet was not so much added, it is just if you are telling a story and your whole viewpoint is from a Christian mindset it naturally flows that you tell the story not only from your own mindset but you are telling a story for others to hear and knowing their viewpoint of course you tell the story so they understand and so my bet is the writers, especially the French writers tell the story with Christian overtones - The time in history the story takes place as I understand is after the Romans leave and probably around the 6th century. And even that - telling a story in the 10th, 11th and 12th century about things that happened at least 4 centuries early can only be how they imagine it was - it is not like there are books describing how it was, or today having documentaries - all they could do is use what they know and their imagination like sitting around a fire and telling a story that starts in their mind as, long ago there was a man...
As to the lion hmm I wonder - do you think the lion like dragons were representing, even then, something like a fantasy novel today has a challenge or buddy figure that is often other worldly. I doubt many ever saw a lion even in the 14th century - we know the kings and queens had zoo enclaves but how many who heard these stories had been to London to see the king and his zoo. Another aspect of these written stories - when they were written how many could actually read - didn't we read someplace that after Gregory of Monmouth wrote his book on Arthur it all but disappeared for several hundred years - My guess is if 5% of the population read it, he would be lucky - it would have had to be hand copied - no printing press in the 12th century.
Just thinking this through and trying to piece it together - from what I get there were a few early authors like, but probably others, Gregory followed by Robert de Boron who is credited with finding and writing down the stories of both Merlin and the Grail aspect with the story brought centuries before by Joseph of Arimathea then, we have the Vulgate writers, who they have not yet identified followed by Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory - they all write with a different slant and add different parts of the story. All were working independently and writing down tales that were over a couple of centuries of oral retelling, they are all writing down what is hear-say, that those in the profession are pinning down as having started in Wales after the Romans left - Actually now that I think of it - they are writing down in prose and poetry what they heard, as did Francis James Child in the nineteenth century, who traveled, collected and published his 10 part study of The English and Scottish Popular Ballads.
My guess they are all trying to be true to the story as they heard it and anyone talking about a Lion probably never saw one, just as they never saw a dragon and so to me, the black lion is like today, Harry Potter has his 'house elf', there is also the Hippogriff. In other myths and legends there is the Griffin. As a black lion or for that matter a white lion that we know lion's are not black nor white to me says this is a fantasy creature included to make the story more fierce. Heck even the flag of Wales has big and bold a 'red' dragon
Ok found this online "The lion, with such repute of its noble nature and having the position and title of king of the beasts, is naturally one of the most common heraldic symbols on the continent of Europe. An emblem of majesty, strength, and justice, military might and deathless courage"
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Pat you can always put it is a nutshell - I love that about your posts - and yes, hopefully it was a good exchange but I'm thinking she did not have much to say about it - it was either go with Owain or be the chattel to this guy next door who was after the castle the minute her first husband died or I guess she could live in the woods and be homeless. Ah so we make light of all this - the choices for women through out the centuries.... :'(
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Hear Ye! Hear Ye!
It appears the website Sacred Texts has settled down with the changed link in our heading working however, the book read is in a different format - We could have picked up and started today but, no one wants to start a discussion of new material on a Friday so we pick up with the second chapter on Monday. The calendar in the heading is updated.
This evening, to save a lot of scrolling on the Sacred Text website, I'll link the story for the second chapter in the heading - please though, through the weekend, continue to share your thoughts on this first story - any thought - not necessarily a researched thought - amazing how we each see something different in the books we read and these stories or no different - so please just share what hits you as you read these tales.
Onward...
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Barb, your comment about the lions and dragons reminded me that the Scots flag is a lion rampant. It was first used by Alexander II of Scotland as a royal emblem in 1222. The use of a dragon to represent Wales was first recorded in the Historia Brittonum in 859 AD. However, there appears to be some evidence (ah yes, another search) that the Dragon evolved from and earlier version, possibly a Roman-British national symbol, but also associated with Celtic leaders and, of course, King Arthur (his battle standard).
The current flag is of Tudor origin. The Tudors were a Welsh aristocratic family. I found this history of the Welsh flag. Very interesting. https://web.archive.org/web/20120809011046/http://welshflag.org/
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Well this is a much longer story isn't it -
right off the bat something is mentioned that I never heard of - Romance of Ipomydon - looks like it was a poem story about courtly love... found a piece of it on this Google excerpt from History of English Poetry from the Twelfth to the Close of the Sixteenth Century.
https://books.google.com/books?id=CcN8nEmUbwgC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=Romance+of+Ipomydon&source=bl&ots=UkomCZ_y1U&sig=ACfU3U3c2Kk9F-D_bEdTNPt_QS8ZePoX6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdh5LHyb7lAhUCL6wKHQkQBm4Q6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Romance%20of%20Ipomydon&f=false
another word new to me - Frontlet
A band worn by women across the forehead and secured beneath the chin. It often formed the basis of headwear. During the 15c black became an increasingly fashionable colour, perhaps by way of contrast when framing a white forehead and face.
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What we seem to have with "Peredur Son of Evrawc" is a coming of age type adventure where Peredur goes through a series of adventures in order to be accepted as a man (knight).
What brutish behaviors some of these characters have. The women are very meek indeed. Once Peredur discovered knights, Mom didn't seem to put up any argument, just gave him advice about whom to seek out for support and employment. Then there is the Lady who he encountered where she gave up a jewel without any distress or argument. Peredur didn't threaten, he just stated that his Mother said that he should take things. Not ask, take. Well, i suppose he may have looked threatening. But, rules of hospitality still wouldn't have let someone just take something. Maybe the tale is incomplete or maybe the oral narrators assumed that their audience understood the finer points without being told. Still, this sounds similar to the hospitality offered to guests in ancient China. Guests, whether invited or not, whether other aristocrats, officials, or lowly messengers, were given fresh clean clothing, food to eat, a place to rest, and very often, gifts. The guests did not demand or ask for these things. Of course, some messengers were killed for bringing certain messages. The ultimate "gift". The Chinese were much more elegant and rigid proper manners.
One puzzlement is that at the beginning, I thought the idea was that Peredur was going through all this 1) to refuse to step foot in Arthur's presence until he avenged the dwarf couple, and 2. to prove himself to Arthur, et.al. that he was worthy of becming a knight. Later in the story, Arthur seems to indicate that Peredur was already a knight and that he missed him. I don't remember Arthur meeting him at the beginning of the tale.
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I only have a few minutes to post now, so can't look it up. I think that when Peredur took some armor from a victim and started looking respectable they said OK, you're a knight.
Another puzzle: how, with his incomplete education, did Peredur get to be such a skillful fighter that he's never defeated?
The jewel: Peredur seems to be very attractive to women. Maybe he charms them into giving him things.
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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | December 09....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr
January 06.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 13.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 20.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
January 27.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 04.....Taliesin
|
Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Thanks Pat for leaving space for the heading -
if she had been a peasant type person I can see her handing over anything - maybe there are ranks of power among ladies as well so that those of a lower rank have no power to refuse any request - also we may be using our own sense of polite behavior as a measure - as bad as it was for women maybe it was worse then we imagined - on the other hand the story wraps itself around the jewel and so maybe there were not oral editors and so being polite was overlooked in telling the tale.
That's some Mama he has... ;)
Hadn't thought of this as a coming of age but frybabe yes, it really fits doesn't it.
Been clearing out and doing a bit of book organizing - I'm shocked at how many books I have about medieval literature aside from so many about Arthur and also about the Irish myths - then found several Icelandic Sagas - some I've read through but more where I started or read bits and pieces - seeing them all together like this makes me aware it would make a good reading focus.
Back later - probably this evening.
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They do seem to like him Pat.
I went cruising through my Ebook pile and discovered some books I forgot I had. Most or all are from Project Gutenberg.
English Lands Letters and Kings from Celt to Tudor by Donald G. Mitchell. This includes at least a mention of Mabinogion.
A Source Book for Mediaeval History: Selected Documents illustrating the History of Europe in the Middle Age (1905) by Oliver J. Thatcher, Ph.D and Edgar Holmes McNeal, Ph.D
Arthurian Chronicles: Roman de Brut by Wace
Footprints of Former Men in Far Cornwall by R. S. Hawker Edited with introduction by C. E. Byles. C. E. Byles wrote in his preface, "There is an element of fiction in Hawker's biographical studies. He never let facts, or the absence of them, stand in the way of his imagination, and he had a Chattertonian habit of passing off compositions of his own as ancient manuscripts." While skimming, I did see mention of Uthur Pendragon. Chattertonian refers to Thomas Chatterton (1752-1770), poet. He committed suicide at age 17.
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Barb, speaking of sagas, did you notice that the notes say Peredur's story has also been retold as a saga? I looked for it in my favorite online saga source, but it's not there.
sagadb.org (http://sagadb.org)
It's a good source for a lot of sagas, but I guess Peredur is too obscure for them.
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I am off on a search too PatH. It appears that Peredur is the Welsh version of Percival. https://www.nightbringer.se/a_peredur.html
And now, all of a sudden, I can't get Monty Python out of my head.
And here is what Sacredtexts has to say in their notes, when you get to it. https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab12.htm
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I've been having trouble thinking of Peredur as Parsifal, but so be it. The tale got worked over a lot after the early version we're reading. Frybabe, Monty Python has now been replaced in my mind by a wonderful Parsifal I watched on TV eons ago, with Siegfried Jerusalem doing an amazing job, both of singing and acting, as Parsifal, especially during his "perfect fool" phase. The staging was lavish and effective too, except for the Grail, which was huge, and looked kind of like an upside down Tiffany lampshade.
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The nightbringer website is by far one of the best - thanks frybabe - you are reminding me to pull out my Frances Child collection of ballads because there too - one story told in many ways or using different names - makes sense realizing the stories were passed down and often told to a group that I bet the story teller altered stories to get a better reaction from his listeners and before long the story was permanently altered while other's remembered the original so we have two stories.
Looks like frybabe there is more than one Arthurian Chronicles - I also have a copy but by Hopkins and I've also the Arthur Companion by Karr - I'm telling you there are more books on the story of Arthur, explaining, assisting, indulging... I'm thinking there are more than there are written about Robin Hood and yet, there are far more Ballads about Robin Hood than Arthur or any of his knights - I'm thinking Arthur grew with time where as Robin Hood's story took on the test of time and remained pretty fixed so there was not a lot of room for speculation or interpretation.
Aren't we reading in prose what was or rather is an epic poem or a long poem?
saw that Pat where the story is also written as one of the Saga's - do not think I have it and cannot find it available on Amazon. Wagner's version makes it really into an over the top Victorian melodrama of religious fervor.
Found it - here you go Pat - upside down Tiffany shade and all...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBvxf8tEKuw
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Lovely, Barb. I have the music without the vocals on one of my old 33s. I even remember the cover. I did my own sketch of the statue on the cover eons ago. Never been one for opera, so never saw a production of it.
Caerllion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caerleon
I don't think I can add to what is posted in the Wikipedia article. Bummer, when I was in Cardiff, I never even knew this was nearby. In fact, I don't think we saw any Roman sites on the entire trip. I was into Medieval sites back then but wasn't much acquainted with Arthur or his association with Wales. I followed up with reading about the Legion II Augusta and Gerald of Wales.
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That's it, Barb, thanks. 1989, goodness, it was a while ago. I'll have to look for more. Jerusalem doesn't even open his mouth here. Surely the real grail would be something rather simple? Would you carry a silver chalice (or a Tiffany lamp) to an outdoor execution scene?
Frybabe, it's a real bummer when you realize you missed a chance like that. Good article.
I wasn't much of an opera fan during the first part of my music listening career, but eventually came to appreciate it. I haven't seen many live operas though, considering how many concerts I go to.
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another site I could spend hours with - Caerleon - like you frybabe when I visited Cardiff I had a limited knowledge of the Arthur connection to Wales and frankly was not even thinking a Roman connection - do remember visiting a recreated village that included old buildings brought to the site from all over Wales that pretty much depicted a 16th century village. I also remember being tired and not getting as much from the day - it was the end of a month long trip of researching old needlework in the basements and attics of museums all over Britain.
A side note - just went down memory lane - there is a short poem under the description for Mari Lwyd that includes a marble reference - I thought what in the world, clicked and sure enough there were all the names and games for marbles - I was in 3rd and in 4th grade when everyday walking home after school a student in my class lived on a street near the school - back then there were no sidewalks only dirt paths and several of us stopped to play a couple of games of marbles marking out the field on the dirt path using a nearby stick - winning the aggie was my goal and it took forever. Then, I did not want to part with it but the others said no fair so I had to play it - come to think of it - see it in my minds eye and it never occurred to me, I was the only girls - ah so...
Pat I can do Puccini, in fact most of the Italian and even French operas but the German Operas - still have not gotten there.
Been torn reading this week - grandsons are coming to stay with me Thursday through next Monday - they have tickets to Formula One - practice run on Friday and then the races are Saturday and Sunday with all kinds of star studded entertainment at night - and so I am getting ready - clearing out the guest room that ended up becoming the catch all room - finding things I forgot I had and other things I've been missing - whenever someone calls they are coming over I end up stuffing my projects etc in the guest room and so I've been sorting and clearing - this is one time when I could use an audio version to go back and hear the bit that is rolling around in my head.
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Yes, Barb, St. Fagan's Folk Museum, which I believe is part of St. Fagan's National Museum of History. Wasn't it fabulous?
I am beginning to feel like I am in one of those quest game apps or video games. The challenges just keep coming and coming and coming. There are so many maidens who have professed they love him best, I've lost count, and I now I can't remember which one or (ones) he says he loves best of all. Peredur sure was a charmer.
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Last night I was listening to Goldsworthy's How Rome Fell. Goldsworthy began and ended Chapter 19 with mentions of Arthur, but otherwise has nothing to say one way or the other whether Arthur existed, because of lack of definite historical evidence. He did state that there was a migration from Wales to what became Brittany (the reason for its name), possibly to get away from the Saxons. So, that strengthens the belief that some of these stories/personalities originated in Wales and became modified on the continent before returning to Wales. I had heard of the possible migration between Wales and Brittany, but I assumed that the migration originated from Brittany going to Wales, not the other way around.
Here is a timeline of Christianity in England if found. It begins with 180AD, but a BBC history says it came in with the Romans in the 1st Century as one of the cults the Romans and auxilliaries worshiped. Please note that in 450AD the pagan Saxons invaded. Again, this fits in with the beginnings of the Arthurian legends. http://www.localhistories.org/christiantime.html
Oh, and this brings up a question. Was Percival originally a pagan? He has been refusing to speak to Christians for a while now, in the story. And Arthur and his Knights? He seems okay with talking to most of them. He already fought and avenged, one would think, Kai's bad behavior towards the dwarf pair, so what reason had he since then to not talk with Christians? Do I remember he made another promise to a lady? It is a strange promise. I wonder why hie picked that? I think Percival just likes to fight. At least he is using it to gain obeisance or allegiance to Arthur.
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I think you are right about wanting to fight - it sure fits the personality of a young man in a hurry - and he sure seems to be in a hurry to make up for lost time which is how I think he sees his mother's protecting him from reality as a child.
I am as amazed as you are frybabe - never imagined people from Wales migrating to Brittany I wonder what kind of boats they used to cross the channel and if they knew there was land on the other side - I don't think you can see the continent from the eastern British shore.
MY gut says that the Christian influence came about as the story was retold after about the 11th century and then Gregory of Monmouth writes down the prevailing storyline in the 12th century however, I think it was actually de Troyes who first writes of Percival or no, it had to be Robert Boron since he brought to the stories Merlin and the Grail story - well it matters not who wrote it my thinking is the story took on a more Christian influence I'm thinking a century before these folks started to write down the stories - I would not be surprised if those re-educating the population to Christianity used these stories as a way to indoctrinate the Christian values that they could conceivably see behind and not too different than the pagan version. The early Christian Church was well known for using the local myths and legends in a new way to explain the new religion by piggy backing on the old.
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Barb, keep in mind that the migration was most likely to get away from the invading Saxons which began in earnest around 450AD. I found this site that should answer your question about the boats. http://dark-age-boats.co.uk/britishromanboats.php Scroll down to wooden hulls and there is an overhead sketch of a hull that reminds me very much like a row boat. So, an oversized row boat with sails? The first mention of keels being used to stabilize ships was in the 6th century.
The Christian religion was the sole official religion in the Roman Empire by the 4th century. thanks, I believe, to Charlemagne. After the Romans left Britain, the invading Angles and Saxons had a very tough time trying to invade and subdue the Welsh. They made it as far as the Severn Valley but no further.
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Sorry for not posting this last week. I have taken the time to start Geraint and read aloud. I can't begin to say how wonderfully enchanting is this story! And to hear it spoken (except for stumbles over the Welsh) is pure joy! This is where all the detail comes in to focus in your mind. I just settle in and let the story unfold. At the outset, the crowned kings assembled and the lists of which church is for whom; the description of the fair-haired youth with his scarf of blue purple and golden apples at the corners-so many pictures in my mind. Who needs movies?
You can see it may be a month or so before I actually complete this story. But the oral reading is simply glorious. My next task, though, is to examine particular words (you can see that underlining and checking words must be done!). Bottom line - I love these stories!
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Marmieone, I'm glad you're enjoying the stories so much. Barb picked a winner here. There's a good reason these tales have lasted so long.
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Oh gosh! I just watched a documentary called Beowulf and the Anglo-Saxons on Amazon. And for your entertainment and enlightenment I found it on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2hQufdwpZE What? What? We're doing Arthur here. Oh, but this documentary does mention Arthur -- several times. In fact, both tales may have originated in the same area (Mercia), with Beowulf being a slightly younger tale. There was mention of the conflict between the Saxons and the Welsh, and the pagans and Christians, and how, like Arthur, may have represented a real person or amalgam of persons. I am going to have to watch this again Did we do Beowulf? .
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weil finally rigged something up to get back on line - the electricity in half the house is out - hopefully only a braker but we using a lot of electricity
today lots of cooking happening and lights on all over the house and my breaker box is nearly 60 years old - oh dear and always on the weekend - the boys are here so tomorrow we may be able to figure it out. In the meantime we used our heads and now after a couple of hours we have the computer with lots of cords running off the electricity in the front of the house - with the computer out I had no phone service so we had to figure out something.
so glad to see you posting marmieone - audio - how fabulous - I did notice the links in the story to the annotations do not work on my kindle so I'm back to reading it on the link in the heading sacred whatever...
I'll have time to watch the video tomorrow after noon Frybabe looking forward to it.
Glad you're liking the stories Pat.
My gut says we are two weeks with this one as well - it is long and here we are at the end of the week already - I'm ok taking longer - the stories take awhile to settle in - the next story for chapter 3 is really short so we will move along - but lets see what happened and let me know please if you think we need more time on this one.
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Barb I hope you find the video as interesting as I did. It gives a view of Saxon and Angle life around the same time the Arthur legend was forming. In fact, there is an earthenworks they show in the program called "Arthur's Dike" which I want to look into. So these two tales/societies abutted each other for a while between the withdrawal of the Roman's and the Norman invasion.
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Well, now, I am definitely rewatch the program. Could I have misheard? There is no Arthur's Dyke in Mercia. There is Offa's Dyke. https://www.historyextra.com/period/anglo-saxon/a-brief-history-of-offas-dyke/ Same dyke, but Arthur's Dyke is a movie. So, if I heard right, what does that mean for the accuracy of the rest of the presentation?
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Grandsons here and we were swapping stories about Arthur - they were fascinated to learn what we are learning while reading and discussing this book - still have - get this - a video tape - yep, and I still have an old portable TV that plays them - analogue so only good for watching Tapes - not CDs but tapes - anyhow we watched LadyHawk - the closest thing to what we are reading and it includes all the magic and romance similar to a story in Mobinogion however, the evil one in LadyHawk is a Bishop so no fooling around it definitely is based in Christian mythology.
Found an old movie on Prime that is the story of Percival - after they leave I'll spend time watching it
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07MXQ1XHJ/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_1
And another that looks interesting Awaking Arthur - Traces the origins of the Arthurian Legends from megalithic times to the historical King Arthur and the modern renaissance of Celtic culture.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B078T3JNBD/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_4
Between my finds and frybabe, your finds I will be watching a marathon - fun to hear my one grandson sing the praises of these stories - he compares them to the what is available now and to him there is no comparison - he sees the new are only good versus bad with no nuance or deeper meaning.
Hmm now that is new frybabe - had not heard of Arthur's Dyke - learning so much reading this book...
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Thanks, Barb, just in time for the weekend. Another excuse to sit and watch TV with Lucy, who has taken quite an interest in watching with my lately.
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Frybabe so you had Lucy and I had the two men/grandboys - we watched PBS last night - they leave today and I can get back into our story - still have not read the entire chapter - need to finish reading so I can share the bits that hit me as interesting or new information.
Voting here tomorrow - big decisions about the city are included on the Ballot - never knew the importance of one judge over the other - in fact I need a tutorial as to what the jobs are responsible for and how they affect me as a citizen. Started to look it up and found so many courts that it was overwhelming - federal and state and district and could not figure out where city court comes in since I know when you get a traffic ticket the judge in the police station is a city judge - what else does a city judge do.
Now that we have this justice system comparing it to the time in history that we are reading about when the leader of the band or the king was judge and jury I have to wonder if we are really that much better off - seems to be there are rules and you follow them or not and then someone comes down on you if you do not follow them.
I also need to get straight now the time line - got when the Romans left but I want to trace when and where the Normans, the Saxons, oh yes, and the Celts arrived. And what were the Welsh... were they of the Celts? That was interesting to learn they crossed the width of England and go back to the continent - I don't remember reading why. I've noticed that any Welshman I've ever seen always has dark almost black hair where as in Ireland and Scotland there are more towheads and redheads which I bet came from the Vikings but could have come from the Saxons given they were mostly living in Northern Europe - I wonder if the Spanish invaded at one time?
Ok till later - need to get these boys on the road.
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[size=12pt AMENDED: ]Barb, I watched the Percival film yesterday. Some of the narration pretty much followed our story, other bits changed the narrative slightly, some was left out or skimmed over, and some must have come from another story altogether. The Challis quest played a more prominent part in the film. I haven't watched Awaking Arthur yet, primarily because I couldn't remember the name.
I see you posted before I corrected my post. [/size]
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It appears that the Holy Grail first appeared in written text by Chrétien de Troyes in his Perceval. The first mention of King Arthur can be traced back to the Welsh monk, Nennius in the 9th century, although the Awaking Arthur documentary tries its darndest to trace him and Merlin way farther back, possibly into the stone age. By the way, I only watched about half of it. I don't envy job the scholars have to disentangle these stories and their add-ons and changes to get to the origins. Seems nigh on impossible to me.
Nennius is also attributed to being the first to write down the use of the Welsh flag as a symbol of Wales. The Welsh most certainly would have seen the dragon symbol on Roman Standards. Roman Cavalry began adopting Draco (the Dragon of mythology) after the Dacian Wars from whence they got the idea, and Constantine the Great (died
337AD) used a purple dragon for his standard according to Stephen Dando-Collins. From Trajan's Column https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco#/media/File:Dacian_Draco_on_Trajan's_Column_2.jpg But then weren't the Celts also using dragon or dragon-like designs?
Well, I am wondering if these snakes that Percival keeps slaying might have been dragons? Oh, and another legend. St. George and the Dragon. St. George died in 303AD.
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looks like frybabe we are both trying to untangle something about the particulars of these stories - I'm back to the bit on the sword and in the process found a couple of good sites - but in particular what is a staple?
Now, there was on the floor of the hall a huge staple, as large as a warrior could grasp. "Take yonder sword," said the man to Peredur, "and strike the iron staple." So Peredur arose and struck the staple, so that he cut it in two; and the sword broke into two parts also.
I think I've discovered breaking the sword into parts has to do with the kind of sword can be identified by the number of parts -this 3 part sword from what I'm reading refers to a larger early sword - it is not breaking the cutting part into parts but rather the sword has parts and my thinking is the sword in braking along those parts which my guess is the swords are not caste all of one piece but each part is sorta welded together to form a sword - still cannot find anything that says what a large iron staple could be - at first I thought it was an expression for the sword but if the sword is striking it - but then it breaks equal as the sword - at first I thought the 3 parts was symbolic but after reading tons I can see there are basic 3 parts to a sword
Here are a couple of good sites that explain swords, warfare, knights and other medieval life
http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/medieval-weapons/
http://www.medievalwarfare.info/
And this one is fabulous - does include information about Japanese, Chinese and Philipino swardsmenship and swards that I breezed over but this is as full a site as I found explaining the equipment, the various cuts, the body movement, you name it - it is all here
https://web.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-050414-140327/unrestricted/Full_Project.pdf
I'm also wondering if he was using a Pollaxes to drag around the first knight... here is the definition.
Pollaxes – Three Weapons in one
Polleaxe weapons were usually used on foot and were really a combination of three weapons in one unit. A Pollaxe was usually around 2 m in length and were capable of punching through plate armour. There were a lot of options available to medieval Knights with this weapon.
A Pollaxe was usually a long wooden pole with a hammer and axe on one side that could be used for punching holes in plate armour, spikes on the tip could be used in a similar way to a spear. Pollaxe weapons also had spikes that will could be used to drag other Knights from their horses and were very useful for fighting on the ground.
Another bit Early Medieval Europe - This era was mostly influenced by the military culture which was left as a Roman legacy in the wake of the Roman Empire’s collapse.
As a result, many weapons used in the early medieval period closely resembled those used by the Roman armies.
However, there were distinctly new weapons in use as well such as the knightly sword, different varieties of axes as well as many new pole-arms which were useful in countering the increasingly decisive cavalry units on the battlefield.
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I'm thinking deserts are forests - what do you think?
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Found this - I'm really not taken by Peredur -
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/p/percival.htm
I rushed through this so fast since my grandsons were arriving and only now really reading it - I wonder why there is so much repetition - it is as if each encounter starts out with the exact wording of a previous encounter - has anyone run into an explanation
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I am trying to find a map that shows a reasonable semblance to Britain right around the time the Romans left and found these to that might help. https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishMapAD43-425.htm Click on the numbers at the top to see the territory changes over the years from 43AD to 425AD. Notice particularly how the territories broke up into smaller kingdoms as the Romans left. Ebrauc is the Roman Eboracum which eventually became York. In that area we meet up with Mor ap Ceneu known as the last "King of the Britons" and "Chief of Dragons" who had a son, Arthurius (one of our King Arthur candidates).
So, while the Mabinogion were tales first translated from the Welsh oral histories, it appears they had a more far ranging Celtic origin. Notice that the Celtic names in other parts of England were similar to Welsh which, because it was difficult to conquer, retained much of its' Celtic language and heritage. The Arthur we know today is likely to be a composite of several early warlords. https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainEbrauc.htm The same, it seems for Peredur. Scroll down below the photos and you will find Peredyr Arueu Dur and mention of Merlin (Myrddin Wyllt) who was a court bard. Interesting, another storyteller. But wait, there is another Merlin somewhere. I'll have to look him up.
This is probably going to be as close as I can get to what a staple is/was. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld/objects/6Iu6tlZyRD-7qNwtmV3gyA The word was used to refer to the system of trade and taxation as a whole, so I started looking for possible instruments of weights and measures and came up with the lead seal. Another thing to research further.
Today is our Welsh Society meeting. A good excuse to socialize and eat out.
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Enjoy your collops, Frybabe.
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How am I going to get through my mountain of chores if you two keep throwing so much interesting stuff at me?
Barb, I haven't read the sword material yet, but that's a topic I like. Peredur doesn't seem attached to his equipment, but swords are important characters in myth or legend, with names and characteristics of their own. Roland's sword Durendal managed to hide after his owner was killed, in order not to be taken and used by the unworthy saracens. (That's kind of ironic when you realize that the saracens made the best swords.) Arthur has Excalibur, which he pulled from the stone, and after his death, Excalibur is thrown back into the lake to await Arthur's return.
Reforging a broken sword is an important symbolic act. Siegfried takes a lot of gorgeous music to reforge his father's sword Nothung. In The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn has the shards of Narsil reforged (he's not a blacksmith like Siegfried, so he has to outsource) and renames it Anduril. We even have a scene in Moby-Dick where Ahab reforges his harpoon, dedicating it to killing the whale. He doesn't rename it, but he quenches the hot steel in blood.
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Pat what in the world are you doing that keeps you from fully enjoying the discussion - are you clearing out and packing? If so I know how that goes - been clearing and clearing and would have to do tons more if I were moving.
The use of a given name seems to be how many 'things' were a statement of ownership - and yes, maybe that is the aspect I was picking up with Peredur - he does not seem to take ownership of horses either - maybe that is part of his persona - he is supposed to have borrowed or won everything he uses having come with very little, not even a sword from where his mother raised him. However reading there is something that says I have earned my place when they name their horses and equipment - hmm thinking on it naming was an issue in Ladyhawk when Phillipe Gaston names Isabeau, Ladyhawk after the sunrise when she turns into a hawk.
After looking at the maps frybabe I only see now how each is fully explained below - need to spend time going back and putting it together.
In one of the recent sites that I found there was something that said Kings only had power after they had an army and gunfire battles were fought rather than combat between knights - no longer using combat by sword most thought was a disgrace since with the loss of sword battle was also the loss of 'contracts' of behavior before a battle and the loss of a man building his esteem and reputation. Evidently the army of men using swords and other hand held weapons were serving a local castle that housed the leader of an area rather than serving a king - with that I thought the story of Robin Hood and Maid Marian had new meaning - I bet the king was trying to assert power he did not have and Robin Hood was trying to prevent the transfer of power. At any rate it tells me more about why the unified Romans plucked off one leader at a time. They never had an entire kingdom to fight except probably Wales that had strong leaders that controlled large swaths of land rather than miles around a castle where peasants could flock in for safety. - Looks like the Romans never really got a foothold in Scotland - with the Irish not conquered and knowing how most Irish had their roots in Scotland maybe there was a common approach that the Romans could not crack.
Well frybabe you sure got further with the staple being something involving trade - all I got was information about iron or a staple being mostly foodstuff and of course the modern staple to attach papers together - not even a staple used to attach wood together that at least I know that much - whatever it was it could be broken by a sword. This is when we see the annotations only cover places and people.
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Frybabe did you catch in Awaking Arthur that the round table was Guenevere's dowry and that the table was made by Merlin - I also had not realized till is saw the film that Arthur was fighting the Saxons. Now that dates it doesn't it...
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Oh good grief - If I just read the annotations the staple is explained
"89a STAPLE. --Page 89. THIS was, probably, a staple for fastening horses to, as it is well known that the horses were often brought into the hall among the guests. In the account of the thirteen rarities of the Island of Britain, as enumerated in an unpublished MS. in the possession of Mr. Justice Bosanquet, it is said that one chieftain had the staple for holding his horse at the foot of his bed. "The halter of Clydno Eiddyn, which was in a staple below the feet of his bed; and whatever horse he wished for in it, he would find there."
don Pedro, king of Spain and lords de la Marche, de Beaujeu, and don Henry de Trastamare, were all living in the early 14th century and yet, in the story Arthur from the 5th or 6th century is whom Peredur is proving his worth - this entire story makes no sense to me - he repeats virtually the same slaying and sitting with a maiden over and over again with just a bit of a twist to each slaying and each encounter, there are black men and gray men big men and dwarfs - I suppose I could look up for each encounter the symbols to better understand but it seems like overkill - enough - lots of words, lots of pages and cannot tell heads or tails from any of it - how did y'all do - did you get more out of this then I did?
Reminded me of a 1000 and One Nights but more boring as if a new tale had to be conjured with the same format as the earlier story to pass a long snowed in winter. There are so many 3s from 3 paths to the very end and the 3 encounters with the sorceress and in addition the story does include some direct references to Christianity.
For me I suffered through reading this chapter and ready for a few movies about the Saxons who Arthur was fighting. So far found several about the Celts but only something about Beowulf that is the closest to anything about the Saxons.
Found this series about Celtic Myths
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07D44VMP7/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_37
and this one looks really interesting The Enigma of the Celtic Tomb
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B075H6RGV1/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_25
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I didn't get to the Round Table part, Barb. I got a bit impatient or irritated with it, but maybe I just was a bit tired. I may finish it today. The :Peredur story is a bit tedious to read after a while. I wonder if the translator put together a string of separate tales about Peredur. Peredur may have been a popular subject for tales way back when.
The meeting yesterday was a bit "sloppy". We had the opening Pledge of Allegiance to our flag and a short presentation by one of the gals that was essentially items of memorabilia and old news clippings and booklets. My sister was not asked to read the minutes of the previous meeting, which apparently isn't always done (surprise to me, but she sends the minutes out in an email a week or so before the meeting), and the President closed the meeting with the ending prayer without asking if any one had any business to bring up. If she had done the last, I would have said another word or two about our readings and research. With such a long time, small group, I think meeting protocol is a bit lax. December 7 will be our Christmas Luncheon. There will be a Cellist for entertainment. Next year, probably in August, the National Welsh Festival will be held in Philadelphia. I don't have details yet.
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hmm Frybabe sounds like the group needs a new initiative to get things going, it sounds like they are almost at the point of a coffee klatch without acknowledging it and trying to keep up pretenses.
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Exactly, Barb. They all have been together so long, i don't know if Sue and I can change much without upsetting them. One of the things Sue mentioned to me is that the club meets at 11am rather than in the evening. That pretty much eliminates most of the younger set because they are still working. The younger set is farther away from the basic reasons the club was formed 65 years ago. I assume that since it isn't much older, it was populated by mostly war brides. The grands and great grands may be more interested in genealogy, re-connecting with "lost" relatives, Celtic history and lore and music. Anyway, there were a few brochures that got passed around to pin to bulletin boards and pass around, but not many. We did get one gal who came when she saw a notice in the paper. She wasn't to this meeting, but had said she would be to the next. I don't know if anyone got her email or phone number to remind her. Sue doesn't have it. There is no newsletter, printed or email. The person who was going to do that backed out I think there is one Director's meeting a year and no working committees. Not surprisingly, there are only a few that hold club positions year after year, and they are mostly burned out. Oh, a nice touch, we have a club chaplain.
I have some housework to finish up then it will be back to Peredur, et. al.
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Wow sounds like the passing of a generation - and not too different from our Senior Learn group - as they pass they are not replaced and I hate to loose the in-depth discovery we do when we read just to say we read and discussed one more book. Younger women do read but they seem to be intent in sharing a common viewpoint about a book rather than exploring the many viewpoints and many different connections one book can provide. Ah so... it is what it is and I can be grateful there are still a few of us left who want to delve into what a book and its story has to offer.
As to this chapter/story - it does seem like several stories combined - looking at Cliff notes for the book of the Holy Grail by Thomas Malory - already I can see the stories in the chapter 'the Miracles' are included as well as the stories of 'Sir Percival' - in this Welsh version we do not hear that he is going after the Holy Grail but rather it seems he is about getting rid of the evil in others and in the world. And yes, I can see many of the encounters with women are his 40 days fasting in the desert.
The only part of these old stories that keeps them a fantasy for me is the concept of a fire breathing dragon or a red, white or whatever color dragon - what animal could have appeared as a dragon in the 6th and 7th century that seemed feasible to write about in all seriousness in the 11th and later centuries.
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Speaking of getting rid of evil, did you notice (I forget where exactly, but in the first half of the story) Peredur feels some remorse for having killed a person by mistake, and some regret for having to kill others that did not mend their ways.
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Yep, said to me when we are trying to do God's will we are only human and not perfect - and then I thought how a one on one killing today would be handled however, I had to take a double look because this was combat and like today we do not punish soldiers for killing the enemy - and like it or not the Church at the time saw anyone not obeying their rule as the enemy - easily done as a king would believe his laws were to be obeyed without question so the church at that time was a ruling political body and so I saw Peredur as a soldier for the church assuring their values were honored and practiced by all those he came in contact with - what was disturbing to me is that not only in these stories is Satan's reps the women but the entire Arthur premise of cracking wide the unity and glory of the round table was Guenevere and Lancelot's fault, again the woman is to blame for evil in the best of situations.
Christianity is not the only push towards women being the fault of evil. I received the bit we are discussing this week with my Tao group and there too the Ying and Yang has the dark being female and saying in the Tao verse we prefer the light - Instead of fighting evil, I am thinking we will get further when we accept it exists and realize everything and everybody has both good and what we call bad -
We all think peace is the goal and I wonder - war has been around since the beginning of men fighting each other for dominance over another, the land or how we think and of course our behavior - or there would not be so many books about warfare and strategy for war that go back thousands of years. Appears to me war is just one more jousting match as Peredur shows and if you are engaged then do it well - the outcome seems horrible but then when I was a kid I learned that we eat animals and plants also have a life that we eat - just really thinking outloud here - because for a hero he does a lot of poking and slicing and whacking to death folks who challenge his concept of right and wrong.
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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | December 09....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab22.htm)
January 06.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 13.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 20.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
January 27.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 04.....Taliesin
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Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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When Peredur leaves Arthur's court, he quickly starts running into his relatives, and we also get foreshadowing of the Grail story. He meets one of his uncles, an old, lame man sitting by a lake, where others are fishing for him. This is somewhat like the Fisher King, whose painful wound, which can only be cured by the Holy Lance, keeps him from doing anything but fishing.
Peredur goes on, and encounters a second uncle. While they are dining, a large, bloody lance is brought into the room. Everyone groans, but no explanation is given. Then a bloody head is brought in on a platter. Again no explanation is given.
Presumably the references were clearer to the original audience?
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After this, Peredur encounters a woman trying to bury the body of her husband. He helps her, then finds the murderer, defeats him, and forces him to make amends by marrying the widow and promising to take proper care of her.
This is the second time something like this has happened (Owain and the knight of the fountain).
Is it really a happy ending to have to marry your husband's murderer?
It's a good thing we're moving on to Geraint; I think Peredur is getting to be a bit too much.
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Thanks again Pat for saving the space for the heading - yes, so much killing in this story that does not seem to make sense - it must be all symbolic and I would not be one bit surprised with even all the books today on understanding symbolism, much of this story is lost with an understanding we, or even scholars, have few clues.
Here is some symbolism - none of the Celtic symbolism fits - but all the Christian symbolism fits to a T.
Head Regarded, with the heart, as the chief member of the body, the seat of life-force and the soul and its power; it denotes wisdom; mind; control; rule. The head is the seat of both intelligence and folly and is the first object of both honour and dishonour: the crown of glory and wreath of victory are placed on the head, but so are the ashes of mourning and penitence, the fool’s cap and ‘coals of fire’.
Christian: Christ, the Head of the Church. Beheaded saints, with a head as emblem, are Alban, Clair, Denis, Peter, Valerie.
Lance An aspect of the masculine power; phallic; solar; war. The lance, sword and arrows can all represent solar rays. The lance is an attribute of the lower forms of knighthood with the sword, as discernment, as the higher. The symbolism of the lance as masculine and the cup, or chalice, as feminine, is bound up with that of the mountain and cave; the mountain and the vertical shadowless lance are both symbols of the axis mundi. The lance and cup are also associated with the GRAIL.
Christian: The lance and cup are connected with the Holy Grail as the cup which caught the blood of Christ on the cross when wounded by the lance. It is an emblem of the passion and of SS George of Cappadocia, Thomas and Jude.
Fish Christian:The Apostles were fishers of men... The fish represented Christ in the Latin church. Fishes were also symbolic of devotees and disciples swimming in the waters of life.
Lake The feminine, humid principle; often the dwelling place of monsters or magical feminine powers, such as ‘The Lady of the Lake’.
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I had a Jewish friend whose family lived in the Netherlands and of course was caught up in WWII horrors - seems after her father was taken, never to return according to Jewish Law her Uncle, her Father's brother had to marry her mother - which is not the same as marrying the women of the man you killed but close - and I remember back in the 50s living in Kentucky, those from the hills had a code that if you killed a man you were obligated to take care of his wife and family.
I'm thinking it was only the the 1970s that a women could have her own bank account without a man's signature and also soon after was the first a women could take out a bank loan or make a major purchase without a male member of the family's signature. We also know marriage before the sixteenth century was not based on romantic love but an alignment with land acquisition to the groom's family, or power status, or wealth even beyond the dowry and so, if the winning knight took all the looser's possessions that may mean his home and wealth that was tied up with the women, the wife and so she was simply part of the property of the conquered knight.
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Good heavens - on a fluke decided to look up to see who was St. Alban- the name reminded me of town in Britain and so I thought hmm I wonder - well sure enough - now you have to wonder if this tale of Peredur was including a reference to St. Alban with the beheading -
Saint Alban is venerated as the first-recorded British Christian martyr, for which reason he is considered to be the British protomartyr (means first Christian Martyr in a nation). Along with fellow Saints Julius and Aaron, Alban is one of three named martyrs recorded at an early date from Roman Britain ("Amphibalus" was the name given much later to the priest he was said to have been protecting). He is traditionally believed to have been beheaded in the Roman city of Verulamium (modern St Albans) sometime during the 3rd or 4th century, and his cult has been celebrated there since ancient times.
Here is the entire story of Saint Alban on Wikipedia- scroll down a bit...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Alban
after reading this of course the uncle had to be near a lake - Saint Alban dries up a river so they can cross to quicken his execution.
More threes - Saints Julius, Aaron, Alban
aha and a bit more - The area known as the ‘Welsh Province’, which comprises of Wales and Herefordshire, has a long history of Christianity. The martyrdom of Ss. Alban, Julius and Aaron is the first landmark in our Christian history in Britain. It is probable that they were put to death in the persecution of Valeriam (257-259). It is believed Alban was martyred at where is now the City of St. Albans in Hertfordshire, and it is believed that Julius and Aaron were citizens of Caerleon, near to modern day Newport, and were martyred there. The Venerable Bede (672-375), following Gildas (500-570), mentions them in his Ecclesiastical History and they are to be found in the Roman Martyrology. We also know that at the Council of Arles (314) three British Bishops were present.
Again scroll a bit and the story of Christianities timeline in Wales is included.
https://rcadc.org/history-of-the-diocese/
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I love this - it is like playing a treasure hunt as we all bring our bits to the table in our posts.
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Goodness another Dwarf - had to look it up and sure 'nough Dwarfs are symbolic -
Dwarf The unconscious and amoral forces of nature, such as gnomes, elves, etc.
With that it seems fitting the story has the dwarf striking a lady across the face and eyes as well as the knight.
Nothing particular to either Celtic or Christian symbolism but the Scandinavians use the dwarf for further symbolic affect.
Scandinavian: Four dwarfs stand at the corners of the earth and support the sky.
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Ah so we have the dwarf, symbol of the unconscious and amoral forces in nature strike across the face and the eye
Face The outward personality.
Eye Omniscience; the all-seeing divinity; the faculty of intuitive vision. ‘The light of the body is the eye’ (Matt. 6, 22).
OK this one we can see it now for what it is in most of these stories - they are based in the culture of the Knight...
Knight As mounted on a horse, the knight is the spirit guiding the body; his quest represents the journey of the soul through the world, with its temptations, obstacles, trials, testing and proving of character and development towards perfection. He also typifies the initiate.
The Green Knight is either the neophyte or initiate, or, if in giant form, the powers of Nature and sometimes Death.
The Red Knight is the conqueror, baptized in blood.
The White Knight depicts innocence, purity, the elect, the illuminated.
The Black Knight represents the powers of evil, sin, expiation and sacrifice.
Wow - the explanation for the knight as a symbol provides a link to further information under Chess - Never knew all this about chess - more than interesting - I'm blown away...
Chess The royal game of life; the conflict between the spiritual powers of light and darkness; devas and asuras; angels and demons struggling for domination of the world; existence as a field of action of opposing powers and forces; manifestation and re-absorption.
Asuras (Sanskrit: are a class of divine beings or power-seeking deities related to the more benevolent Devas (also known as Suras) in Hinduism. The asuras battle constantly with the devas. Asuras are described in Indian texts as powerful superhuman demigods with good or bad qualities.
This is followed by an explanation of the chess board, the movement of players and the symbolism of the players - here is the explanation for the knight and the castle.
The Rook, Castle, or Chariot, is the temporal power, the rulers of this world; the move is based on the square, which symbolizes matter and the earth, while the axial movement, cutting across colours, denotes the virile and masculine and is ruled by Saturn.
The Knight, the initiate, uses both the intellectual and devotional way, but without the power of the spirit; the jump of the Knight’s move represents the jump of intuition, also the left-hand path. It is also suggested that it has military and chivalric associations with initiatory orders of the Templars, etc., and is a ‘WANDERER’ or ‘knight errant’; it is ruled by Mars.
The wanderer engages in aimless movement, as opposed to the pilgrim who takes a direct and purposeful path. The wanderer is also symbolic of the knight’s move in chess, where he is the knight errant or ‘wanderer’, who sets out on a journey or adventure not knowing where it may lead him.
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Another that make a symbolic statement...
Blood The life principle; the soul; strength; the rejuvenating force, hence blood sacrifice. The red, solar energy. Blood and wine are interchangeable symbols. In Christian symbolism blood and water at the crucifixion are the life of the body and the life of the spirit.
Ah so, the dwarf striking the face and eyes of the lady and the knight is an amoral force bloodying - bringing outward on their face, their outward personality, as a rejuvenating force and striking their eyes symbolic of their intuitiveness, the light of their body - bottom line says to me the amoral is out of the blue striking their life force.
I guess that is what happens to all of us when we are hit so to speak with the unexpected, a betrayal or loss or an aggressive act. It is just played out here is a scene from the past - I guess how we handle an attack is according to the severity of the attack on our body or values.
What are y'all getting out of this - so far still have pages to read... I'm a little over half finished.
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I guess dwarfs were much more common than these days. I remember seeing a few around when I was a youngster, but with the new hormone treatments and what not, I guess it has become rather rare--at least in less poverty stricken areas.
I think with all the ands in these stories you can see the oral telling coming out some, especially if you are telling the tales to children. And then, and then, and then. Or the pause in the story and the audience hollering "and then what happened".
I have just gotten, but not yet read, to the second part of the stag hunt story. I am a bit disappointed that Arthur would have the rare and beautiful creature killed. So we shall see "what happens next". The jousting scene was interesting, but not particularly descriptive. In fact none of these stories are very descriptive except for the basics. The most descriptive so far are the how people looked, such as hair color, age, some notice of clothing, descriptions of the countryside, but not much detail on the arms and armor.. So we don't have any description of the tournament atmosphere with its presumably colorful tents and standards, and dress of the spectators, no tournament rules or number of participants or who the participants were except for the two major combatants. Very simple tales compared to the likes of Homer. But gosh, like Homer, they have traveled and been told and retold through the ages, things added, things dropped depending on the audience. Ever enduring.
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So far my take is in this story they are fighting each other but not in a tournament - although, they meet on a meadow - so maybe frybabe but then, could it be we think every jousting match is an occasion for a grandstand and hoards of onlookers - however, they do talk of onlookers and the Lady is there observing -
Yep, you are right, not a lot of description about events. Without the events described sure gives our imagination a workout and therefore a look of fantasy can be in our mind's eye. Probably back in time these stories probably did not need that much description since everyone knew the 'drill' and all we have is what we have seen in the movies or a few illustrations - and yes, hmm maybe that is it - the emphasis seems to be on "what happens next" and description would slow down the anxiety of what happens next. I remember so often I'd be describing something and those listening would say 'get on with it' - 'what happened'
;) I'm thinking once you are powerful and wealthy you 'have to have it' no matter the luxury item and for the last couple of hundred years it may have been artwork or fine furniture or silver items where is back in the years 600 to 1100 it was unique animal heads, gold and a fine sword. And with all the attributes laid to Arthur he was still a powerful and wealthy king.
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I'm about where Frybabe is in the story. This is the second time we've met a dwarf. Dwarves were a feature of courts, like jesters and entertainers, figures of amusement or decoration. I didn't find a very good article about them, but this gives the idea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_dwarf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_dwarf)
They mostly seem to have been around later than Arthur's time, but the story details have been embellished with later tellings. Judging from these two examples, dwarves were a lot of trouble.
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Interesting article Pat - starts out like anyone who is not a white full grown male is put into a form of slavery - women, blacks, dwarfs - I have read that those who were too deformed were hid, pretty much through the early twentieth century and then I read in another book how the more unusual the person or item the greater value the gift - to this day we attempt to gift a person with something that will amaze, excite and astound someone, even killing a foe is a form of a gift. hmm the more you think on this the more weird we humans.
I think one of the first phrases says so much, "They were owned and traded amongst people of the court, and delivered as gifts to fellow kings and queens"
I was surprised to hear the number of years to the life of someone with dwarfism. I was under the impression they typically died in mid-life years.
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I plowed on past the killing of the white deer but frankly I was too tired and got that cross eyed feeling - I'm finding these stories hard to follow - I think I am caught up in trying to discern history from mythology - Earlier someone shared they found a way to listen to the stories - need to find that post and follow up - I think if I read while someone was reading I could have an easier time of sorting out what is happening - but then maybe not - between trying to include the meaning of what I think is included as symbolism that adds to the action, versus trying to sort out history from myth my brain my be on overdrive - but frankly as frybabe pointed out, there is not a lot of description about what is happening and setting the scene which I now see as helping to tell a story and only now that it is missing in this story do I realize how much more readable when scenes are set. I'm going to find a book about Arthur that I read as a child - I just do not remember the story telling being so stark and humdrum - maybe the difference is most later author/translators brought the tale into modern times where Lady Guest is as accurately as she can re-telling the stories as they were told and first written in the eleventh century.
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I've finished the story, which went easier for me than the last two. There did seem to be a wee bit more description on the jousting tournament. Another "character" that is cropping up regularly are the giants. So, anyone with a large stature was rather unusual too.
Whatever happened to Geraint? I can't believe he was simply acting on a mistaken belief that his wife preferred someone else. All that he put himself and his wife through seems more like his initial shock and anger fed into something more, like depression and, perhaps, a psychotic break of some kind. It took an awful lot of help from his friends to find and restore him to mental and physical health.
Spoiler alert, if you haven't finished the story yet:
Of the three so far, I like this one the best. It had a few recognizable elements including the continuing loyalty of his wife even though he mistrusted her and she disobeyed his commands to keep her mouth shut, and the enduring friendship and courage his friends showed by essentially doing an intervention to restore his health, physical and mental.
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For the life of me I cannot remember where i heard the story of Enid not obeying - where ever, I remember she was never really punished as I understood punishment although now reading it I give her, she sure had her fill of seeing her beloved about dead more than once. I remember having the same reaction reading this time as when I first read or heard the story, that Enid reminded me of Lot's wife and thought for sure her fate would be similar. Well it appears he shows them all - her for not trusting him and being tearful listening to court gossip and the court for doubting his prowess.
I thought this chapter/story was rather disjointed - didn't see too much relationship between the stories except the same personalities were involved - it really could have been 2 if not 3 separate stories.
Evidently a hunt had as much protocol as a tournament and the notes kept referring over and over to the Triad -
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads1.html
And again, for the life of me cannot remember which ballad mentions the square of low degree (I can even hear the tune in my head but not enough to nail it) however, I never knew it was a reference to a well known and loved medieval story.
Here is an annotated copy...
http://www.elfinspell.com/EERSquireofLowDegree.html
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The two stories, Arthur and the stag, and Geraint's journey remind me of many of the modern novels that follow two different events or people, flip-flopping back and fourth between the two until, eventually, they merge near the end of the book.
I didn't pick up on trust as a major issue except where his wife was concerned. I did think Geraint was an very obstinate against accepting any kind of help. I think we all have run across people who could use help at one time or another but who refuse it, no matter how desperate the situation may be. Is that a pride thing? Do they believe people will think less of them and think them weak if they accept help? Sorry to say, but the interaction between Geraint and Enid when she, after being told not to speak, tried to be helpful in cautioning him of danger, reminds me of George and his mother. Even I got scornful comments now and again when I would offer some innocuous advise, the like in the don't forget your hat or umbrella kind of advise. George, his mom told me once, was that way from a very young age, insisting on doing things himself. He thought his mom was controlling and manipulative. I see similar personality traits in Geraint - a man worth knowing and following for all his faults. Enid remained loyal, as I do.
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Ah yes, I can see that now that you pointed it out Frybabe - the stories are told like a modern novel with several stories going on at once.
Ha funny to me - a different way to understand guys not wanting un-asked for advice - I do it at times with my son who bristles, mostly when in his vehicle and I'm telling him to turn here or there since I use shortcuts with no traffic and he has not lived in Austin now for at least 25 years - here I think I am being helpful but Sally, my daughter-in-law has a fun way of reminding me he is grown man, independent and capable and does not need me to take care of him, that we all make our own choices in life. With a quick intake of breath I get it - I don't want anyone telling me what to do either - my only wish is I had to same ability as Sally to explain in a fun, wink of the eye way. Ah so... we all react differently don't we.
In the story Geraint is being rather masterful, to the point of being obnoxious however, I saw it as a retaliation for her believing the court gossip causing her to shed her tears where as, he was fully enjoying being in her company - I think he was more than annoyed that she was grieved over the gossip rather then enjoying the life they were living so that he had to prove himself again.
She did not stand up for him but instead reacted to court gossip that he was a has-been, taking advantage of his past and no longer capable because he locked himself up in her presence - but then he thought his early declaration of what was important was understood - "And unto him he represents that it was better for him to spend the flower of his youth and the prime of his age in preserving his own boundaries, than in tournaments, which are productive of no profit, although he obtains glory in them."
And so he did not see himself ignoring the court of knights and others - He sees they want the glory of a constantly winning leader - He sees how their desire has taken hold, even affecting Enid, so he goes forth. I also think he felt betrayed by Enid that she fell for the gossip and did not value him enough to stand up for his principle about fighting; that he made his decision to spend his life with her enjoying each other and then, when she reacts so strongly to the court gossip he had no alternative but to play the glory game but also, Enid was going to learn what the glory game entailed and learn to trust he could handle whatever comes because that is what a well trained knight does.
For her to be on the look out is fine but to trust he was a capable well trained knight which meant, ready or not, forewarned or not, he engaged in whatever danger presented itself and won - part of proving your worth was to win regardless the circumstances or what to others looks like a surprise attack but in reality, was the practiced skill of a well trained knight. He had trained so that his senses picked up the danger before it arrives. He did not need anyone to tell him how to do his job or prepare him to do his job, especially someone who was not a trained knight. I just saw him as pissed that others would not respect him and his choices and now he had to go out and prove himself all over and take on the Glory game and it was about time Enid saw what was really involved so that he was being stubborn about taking care of himself.
I thought Arthur's men realized what he was doing and made it appear easy for him to get help without his seeking it or without the feeling someone was coming to rescue him but rather, by moving the tent near the road he would, in affect bump into it. He was a proud knight and took his physical damage and pain as part of the job plus I thought he was so pissed that this unnecessary foray into the kingdom was him having to show he was a winning glory seeking knight which he saw nothing noble about it - he was not protecting anyone or fighting for Arthur - sure he found a couple of bad guys along the way but then there is always bad guys and his statement about his 'flower of youth' questions, was his life enjoying Enid having to be questioned over, others who wanting a man's man seeking glory with and for them with their expectation he should rooting out all the bad all the time?
An aside, are we expected to spend our life rooting out bad hmm an interesting question about life - listening to the priests and nuns as a kid that seemed to be their take on life - in order to get to heaven you were to root out all the bad so that guilt is right around the corner when time is taken for moments of pleasure much less living life seeking how to intensify moments of pleasure for yourself and for others. The French are good at intensifying pleasure, believing that care be taken for instance with food because it is a pleasure and with clothes on and on.
Back to the story, since he was not on a noble journey but only seeking glory he was embarrassed for Arthur to see him in his weakened state and just wanted to get on with it... Arthur made it easy and does not chastise him for taking on the quest. Arthur was able to crack through his stubborn anger. Interesting, while healing he does not tell Enid she is forgiven and continues on his journey seeking "tournaments, which are productive of no profit" till again, he is wounded and standing beneath the shade of a tree.
This last encounter he bullies himself into the fight. This was not his land, it was the kingdom of Gwiffert Petit and he says to Gwiffert Petit - "Nay," answered Geraint, "I knew not this road was forbid to any." - Gwiffert Petit was not the dwarf that slapped him in the face at the start of all this. And so is it just because he is a dwarf king?
What I am picking up is - telling these stories everyone knows what aspects of the story stand for -like today, mention Russia and regardless if you agree or not you know they are the bad guys - well there are several dwarfs in the story and a few giants that according the the book on symbols both dwarf and giants represent the amoral forces; primordial power; darkness. The Giant using a Club, the club represents great strength and symbolizes the betrayal of Christ. Those hearing the story or even, up till more recent centuries, those reading the story would knee jerk know what these references mean.
For Celts the deer represents a supernatural animal of the fairy world and they are divine messengers. And a 'white' deer means a terrestrial goddess. However in the Christian mindset 'white' means, a purified soul; joy; purity; virginity; innocence; the holy life; light; integrity. White is worn at all sacraments: baptism, confirmation, first communion, marriage, death. It is the colour of saints not suffering martyrdom and of virgin saints and Easter, Christmas, Epiphany and Ascension. It seems to me the white deer is the core of the story, the holy grail so to speak and Arthur gives it to Enid.
The knight's quest represents the journey of the soul through the world, with its temptations, obstacles, trials, testing and proving of character and development towards perfection. Is Geraint at the end a purified soul that came close but does not suffer martyrdom resting under the shadow of a tree... A Tree is 'The' whole of manifestation; the synthesis of heaven, earth and water; dynamic life as opposed to the static life of the stone. Both an imago mundi and axis mundi, the ‘Tree in the midst’ joining the three worlds and making communication between them possible, also giving access to solar power; an omphalos; a world center.
With that I wonder if the story is telling us the balance of evil versus good in represented by Geraint taking his pleasure versus continuing the journey of a soul through the world till the connection is made between heaven, hell and our life on earth - is his choice of taking pleasure in his home life with Enid allowed if he is a knight - do knight's retire?
From the story --- "Geraint went to bear them company, and Enid also, as far as Diganhwy, there they parted. Then Ondyaw the son of the duke of Burgundy said to Geraint, "Go first of all and visit the uppermost parts of thy dominions, and see well to the boundaries of thy territories; and if thou hast any trouble respecting them, send unto thy companions." "Heaven reward thee," said Geraint, "and this will I do." And Geraint journeyed to the uttermost part of his dominions. And experienced guides, and the chief men of his country, went with him. And the furthermost point that they showed him he kept possession of.
And, as he had been used to do when he was at Arthur's Court, he frequented tournaments. And he became acquainted with valiant and mighty men, until he had gained as p. 162 much fame there as he had formerly done elsewhere. And he enriched his Court, and his companions, and his nobles, with the best horses and the best arms, and with the best and most valuable jewels, and he ceased not until his fame had flown over the face of the whole kingdom. And when he knew that it was thus, he began to love ease and pleasure, for there was no one who was worth his opposing. And he loved his wife, and liked to continue in the palace, with minstrelsy and diversions.
And for a long time he abode at home. And after that he began to shut himself up in the chamber of his wife, and he took no delight in anything besides, insomuch that he gave up the friendship of his nobles, together with his hunting and his amusements, and lost the hearts of all the host in his Court; and there was murmuring and scoffing concerning him among the inhabitants of the palace, on account of his relinquishing so completely their companionship for the love of his wife. And these tidings came to Erbin. And when Erbin had heard these things, he spoke unto Enid, and inquired of her whether it was she that had caused Geraint to act thus, and to forsake his people and his hosts."
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OK this is more or less a running commentary - I'm watching the Legends of King Arthur - a series of the story presented by professors in England - they are saying to find the historical Arthur they use the myths and legend to work backwards - they are saying that the Arthur story is full of symbols and so to understand and unravel the symbols will bring us closer to the thinking of the times and ultimately to the historical Arthur.
They are saying Mallory's version is the best and explain it was not an original - that he took the French versions and coalesced them into one story - Interesting, they are saying Mallory was a knight during the War of the Roses and tells the story from a knight's point of view - they also say he would be the last of any to know and experience knight's battling sword and lance against sword and lance because after gun powder replaced swords that was the end of chivalry as the identifying morality of a knight.
Another new bit I did not know - during the War of the Roses King Henry fought using Arthur's symbol of a dragon on his flag reawakening the story of Arthur. After he won he said he was an heir to the Welsh King Arthur - and even later Henry the VIII painted himself on the round table in Winchester Cathedral as King Arthur - Another tidbit Mallory wrote his version from a jail cell - He was more like Lancelot than the noble Arthur
OK here it is - during and after The Glyndŵr Rising, Welsh Revolt or Last War of Independence in 414 the slaughter was so great and so barbarous that by about 416 there was a 40 year stop to fighting, with many of the Saxon's and Anglo's going back to Gaul. And earlier, after the Romans left, the Saxons had been INVITED in to help fight the Picts until the Saxons became a menace.
It is during this time that Arthur's name is given as the leader who moved the Anglo Saxons out of Wales and fought them in Britain.
This may be how myth, legend and history both overlap and romanticize the story - We had evidence, included in one of our earlier posts, the name of the Welsh leader who headed the war of Independence - I should find that but onward with this film as they explain King Arthur. Back later - had to interrupt watching...
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Back again - amazing how many writings of early monks are quoted as including some tidbit about Arthur in these very early 6th century writings and then later numerous writings in the 8th 10th and 11th centuries
aha the story of the dragons and why the red dragon is on the flag - tra la - something about Merlin and a prediction of two stones under a castle but then the stones were under water and the water was drained by the locals who found at the bottom the two large boulders - the worms predicted by Merlin came out and started to fight - the white worms/dragon was the Saxons that would take over all the land from what we call the channel now to the ocean but they would not last since the red worms/dragon would come out and chase off the white worms/dragon/Saxons back across the sea and so the red dragon is the symbol of not just Wales but for all the British as the hidden force that will come to the rescue
Earlier the word Dragon meant leader
Back to legend and symbols they are saying both have to come out of substance - they are also pointing out that people do not change their culture overnight - the Romans were in Britain for 400 years and Arthur was a figure of importance only 100 years after they left and may have been very proud of his Roman heritage which included Christian beliefs tied into the Celtic world which for several hundred years before Rome came down on the Celts there was a very active monastic Celtic Christian tradition.
The Saxons were heathens and so another powerful reason to resist them. That it is only in the twentieth century we hear anything that Arthur was a pagan which is being pushed in the twenty-first century but nothing was suggested in earlier centuries that he was anything but a Christian.
Included in the documentary is a Druid Priest who disputes the idea the Arthur was Christian
Ha ha more from reading the Silk Road - seems the where the Romans conquered they took the best and brought them into the Roman Army - After Rome conquered, yep, Samarkand they transported over 500 Samarkand horsemen into the Roman Cavalry - half as many as were already in Britain - their armor, shields etc were found near Hadrian's Wall which is where they believe the were brought after crossing the water - the agreement among the scholars is Arthur was a trained horsemen and was in a cavalry unit - and now they are suggesting he learned his exceptional skills from these imported exceptional horsemen that brought with them their culture that was Russian.
aha back to the start of all this - the dragon symbol - seems these Samarkand horsemen used lances that attached were flags with bronze symbols on top of the lance. The most used was a bronze dragon's head and attached was a long red wind-socket. By the 4th century the Romans used this dragon symbol so the troops knew who to follow.
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News to me that there were cavalry from Samarkand in the Roman Army. The only thing I know about Romans in Samarkand is that they were either Silk Route traders or captured soldiers sold as slaves. Samarkand and Bactria, as best as I can tell right now, were part of the Scythian (Sarmatian) Empire which had excellent horsemen. Rome did conquer some of their territories, but I don't know what tribute, if any, Samarkand provide to Rome.
I am aware of the dragon standards that were use cians. The Dacians did supply the Roman Army with Cavalry. I would assume that was after Trajan defeated them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco The Romans liked the Dacian standard so much that some of their units eventually adopted it as their own. Who knows, maybe the Dacians, et. al. got the idea for their Dragon standard from imported Chinese silks. The business of trade did not just exchange goods; it also brought different art designs, ideas, skills, and, oh yes, the plague.
Question: Wasn't a dragon one of the ancient Celtic symbols, quite apart from the Roman imports? Many of their auxiliaries were originally from Celtic tribes.
Meanwhile, I think I located the series you are watching on the free TV channel, Tubi (or something like that). It is part of my internet TV package, so I will be checking into it later today.
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IF you are a prime member it is free on Amazon -
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B07MTQXG27/ref=atv_wl_hom_c_unkc_1_2
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Super! That will make it easier to find.
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Tra la - the Welsh National Anthem sung by a large choir.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wcuwDXFS5Y
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Plus an enthusiastic audience. Thanks, Frybabe.
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I checked my Goldsworthy book on the Roman Legions which has information about each legion itself as well as some of the battles they fought. He had very little to say about the Sarmatians other than that after the Dacian campaigns, including Trajan's War, they were able to recruit from the defeated army's and that they were dispersed among the various Legions. He also had a paragraph about the Draco standard.
Patricia Southern, in her book on Roman Britain also did not have much to say, but she did have more detail about the Sarmatian troops sent as part of the agreement after Trajan won the war. The Samaritians sent Rome about 8,000 troops, about 5,000 of which were assigned to the Legions in Britain. While there is no firm evidence of which areas they were assigned to, it appears that Ribchester is a likely candidate. Some, apparently were posted to Hadrian's Wall too, or were assigned there and then moved to Ribchester. Ribchester, BTW, was established as one of the Roman settlements for veterans beginning around 78AD by Vespasian. The fort was primarily garrisoned by cavalry units, many of which would have been Samaritian.
I get the feeling that Dacian and Sarmatian are sometimes used interchangeably. They were sometimes enemies and sometimes battle companions as when they fought against Trajan. The Huns and their cousins the Alans and who knows who else were in great flux in the area mixing it up for quite a while with changing alliances as opportunities arose to gain ground. What treacherous times it must have been never being able to quite trust your supposed friends and allies.
Back to our regularly scheduled program. I watched the first of The Legends of King Arthur last night. Very interesting.
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Well its been awhile since I did that - lost my almost completed post - in a nutshell I was saying that it was great you had other resources and amazing, who would have guessed - some of the Asian DNA has to be included among the Brits. I do not think though when you have your DNA analyzed it goes back more than 4 or 5 generations.
Doubt I will get into the next session, Camelot till maybe tomorrow - too much good TV on PBS tonight and tomorrow night - then it is nothing - during the day I have to make up for all the time lost last week when I wintered down the house and bundled up - but tomorrow we start on Kilhwch and Olwen which is not as long as these first chapters/stories
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What a huge list of names. My favorite is Fflewddur Fflam.
I got a kick out of Yspaddaden Penkawr requesting two forks to raise up his eyebrows so he could see. I have eyes like my Dad, the folds between my eyes and eyebrows do droop down. Mine aren't as bad as Dad's were.
The bit about the briar bush on his wife's grave sounds biblical. And the trials Penkawr set out for Kilhwych to complete sound like tales from Ovid's Metamorphosis, including Jason, and other Greek myths, a whole series of things that must be accomplished before the hero is awarded the prize; each task more difficult than the last.
As a child my idea of a knight did not include rudeness and bullying. These stories leave so much out that it is difficult to determine, sometimes, whether or not fighting and killing another knight encountered along the way was justified. These guys seem to be just spoiling for a fight no matter who or for what.
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The whole system seems to be set up with the mindset of spoiling for a fight, constantly proving yourself in battle. It's interesting how much they play by the rules. If a knight yields, you don't kill him. Then, you set conditions on him--Go apologize to someone, go to someone and do whatever he says, etc. It's assumed, correctly, that these tasks will be carried out, even though often the victor has gone off and can't enforce them.
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As the old saying - Honor among thieves - seems to me we read somewhere that the victor takes the loser's valuables and so as they wander across the land they are probably earning wealth simply by fighting and winning and probably adding to their reputation much as the gun slingers in the old west.
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Using the notes to keep track of the lineage is more names - it reminds me of that bit in the bible where the lineage of Jesus is quoted - ha I wonder... it appears the Luke version was written by a monk in 800 - and so you have to wonder how much the story took on an importance simply by including lineage. Here is the Luke version in the book of Kells 800AD
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/KellsFol200rGeneolgyOfChrist.jpg/440px-KellsFol200rGeneolgyOfChrist.jpg)
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Huarwar the son of Aflawn (who asked Arthur such a boon as would satisfy him. It was the third great plague of Cornwall when he received it. Do you think that is referring to the black plague?
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aha this may be what these stories of jousting every knight on the road is really all about - not jousting an actual person but rather some negative behavior...
THE Welsh have a fable on the subject of the Hanner Dyn or Half Man, taken to be illustrative of the force of habit. In this allegory Arthur is supposed to be met by a sprite, who appears at first in a small and indistinct form, but who on approaching nearer increases in size, and, assuming the semblance of half a man, endeavours to provoke the king to wrestle. Despising his weakness, and considering that he should gain no credit by the encounter, Arthur refuses to do so, and delays the contest, until at length the Half Man (Habit) becomes so strong that it requires his utmost efforts to overcome him.
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her cheek was redder than the reddest roses
My love is like a red red Rose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOv3mDFtASM
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http://www.aattt.org.uk/
With this website - Follow King Arthur's trail as he hunted the Twrch Trwyth through Wales and the South West. This new interactive website, which coincides with the publication of Margaret Isaac's new book, will map the route taken and record incidents from the quest.
OH the tale told by a local - wonderful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avE9KYiqm7c
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BTW, an ell is about 45 inches, being six hands breath, and was primarily used to measure lengths of cloth. I make that lance of his to be 11.25 ft.
Good find, Barb. I'll get to it all a little later. Meanwhile, I just finished The Legends of King Arthur.
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I couldn't find much on Plinlimmon but Wikipedia shows a picture and gives a description of the name and meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plynlimon
Here is an interesting article about Inglesborough which was used by the Romans as a signalling post up to the time they left England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingleborough
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I haven't started the next section yet, so I'll stick in my thoughts about Geraint and Enid. In this story, the couple are genuinely in love with each other as persons, not just "here's a beautiful woman with property" or "he rescued me so now I have to marry him".
I can't make sense of Geraint's behavior. He thinks Enid loves someone else, but what does he think he's doing? Proving he's better than the imagined rival by killing everybody in sight? He's lucky that things get straightened out in the end.
Gantz (translator of my hardback) contrasts the stories of Geraint and Owain. They both win their lady, then lose her and must win her back, Owain by force of arms, and Geraint by asking forgiveness. Owain has lost interest in his wife, and Geraint is afraid that his wife has lost interest in him.
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Can anybody explain to me why Kai got mad at Arthur and refused to help anymore? I see nothing in the little poem that would tic him off so much. Was it an insult to suggest that if Dillus were still alive after his debearding he would kill Kai?
According to Wikipedia, Armorica was the part of Gaul situated between the rivers Seine and Loire and include Brittany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica
This is from Timeless Myths and has some interesting literary info not included in Wikipedia. http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/armorican.html
A little info about Marie de France from the British Library: https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-lays-and-fables-of-marie-de-france and from Winthrop University https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-lays-and-fables-of-marie-de-france This last has several web sources, however I could only access one (the two poems). Project Gutenberg has a 1911 translation of her work. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/11417/11417-h/11417-h.htm as well as Chretien de Troyes Four Arthurian Romances https://www.gutenberg.org/files/831/831-h/831-h.htm Tomorrow I am going to locate the kindle versions on Project Gutenberg so I can download them.
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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | January 06.......Branwen the Daughter of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab22.htm)
January 13.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 20.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 27.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
February 03.....The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 10.....Taliesin
|
Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Post-Roman Wales: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Dyfed#/media/File:Wales.post-Roman.jpg
I was checking place names from the back and fore travels of Arthur and the Irish invaders and was lucky enough to find mention of Porth Cleis elsewhere. It is a small creek on St. David's Head, Pembrookshire You can zoom the map in and out. Some pix below. Of course, the marina wasn't there way back when, and it looks like it did or does still draw back considerable at low tide. https://coflein.gov.uk/en/site/34342/details/porthclais
Cats are pesting for lunch. Be back later.
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Sorry out of pocket - my tummy took a hit on some chicken the other night and I'm still not 100%
I remember when we were talking about which book to tackle and learned the lays was a word used to say stories - never knew that.
Noticed that with Kai - what crossed my mind he was talked of in a negative way in I think it was the second story and thought that he was a personality that was not as much a groupie as the others.
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Okay, I'm back with more findings.
Mynyw is the city of St. Davids which figures largely in Welsh history and religion. Preseleu appears to be the Presili Hills (or in earlier times mountains) near St. Davids. Both are part of Pembrokeshire.
Glyn means valley as does Cym. Cym is a particular landform which is described as a valley that is amphitheater like in shape from glacial erosion. And here are a few example of what it might have looked like. http://www.geography-site.co.uk/pages/physical/glaciers/corrie.html Here is the Afon Nyver at Nevern. It appears to be a stream or creek and features in one of the pilgrimage walks in the area. You can also click in and out on the map to get an idea of the area Arthur et. al. had to cover to chase down Twrch Trwyth https://my.viewranger.com/route/details/MjNfMzY0Nw==
From Archaeologica Cambrensis: "... It was in this cantrief [e. i. Cantref Gwarthaf ], too, that the district of Pelunyawc ( Peuliniog)--called after a Peulin (of Capel Paulin) , or Paulinus--had its situation. This district of Peulinyawc, in the Red Book of Heregest, in the story of Kulhwch and Olwen, is wrongly called Pelumyawc. " I think this passage shows up the difficulty with place names being spelled every which way. At any rate, I am not finding it just now.
One more for now. Aberteivi is Cardigan. From Wikipedia: "The Welsh name Aberteifi refers to its position by the mouth (aber) of the River Teifi. "
I saw back in that 2016 Welsh overland safari posted info offering a tour following all this chasing around after Twrch Trwyth, but I don't see it mentioned in their current listings.
Hi Barb, sorry to hear you are under the weather.
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I forgot to mention that in my reading, I am trying to find out if/when the Welsh invaded Ireland. All I've seen so far is that the Irish in coordination (that's hard to believe) with the Anglo-Saxons and Picts invaded Wales and surrounds. I also discovered that inhabitants of the Isle of Man were originally a Briton speaking people, but I don't remember if they were directly controlled by Welsh interests. The Irish invaded it and for a time the Celtic Irish became mixed in with the Briton language, enough that it changed the language so that they were no longer Welsh speaking or understandable to the Welsh. I have a mind to look up a history of the Isle of Man because now I am curious.
I've just a little while ago finished reading the story. After all those trials, the end seemed a bit abrupt or anti-climactic. The whole of the story reminds me of a rather bloody scavenger hunt. Here again, the Irish invasion I came across was later than the original Arthur stories, 8th and/or 9th centuries if I recall right. Arthur must have been such a great character to portray that the storytellers just kept adding tales to keep their audiences happy. It is kind of like the serial fiction books we have today.
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Yes, Frybabe I think that is how these stories came to be as we read them today - for hundreds of years various aspects were either blown up or changed to suite the experience of the audience and the skill of the storyteller. This aspect is so apparent in the many Ballads about the same character or theme - I have the Child's collection which was done in the later years of the nineteenth century that does include a few about Arthur and his knights but more about Robin Hood and then a few of the Chaucer stories are about the knights we are reading about - I think having a list of the names that one knight is called in different stories and languages would help me.
I'm thinking that Owain had some issue with his lady-wife --- there is a ballad about him and a lady who he meets after dark and is beautiful - he beds her admiring her beauty but when morning arrives with the light of day she is an ugly old hag and Owain has to decide if he want her beauty at night when no one will know he must accept her appearance in the day knowing everyone will see and assume he has married an old ugly hag.
In another version of this story a mother dies, and daughter Isabel's father marries a vile woman who abuses and enchants her till Owyne (Owain) shall rescue her. Owyne comes and sees a hideous beast. Despite her appearance, despite threats, he kisses her three times and restores her.
In another version of this same story Arthur, after Christmas, had been encountered at Tarn Wadling, in the forest of Inglewood, by a bold baron armed with a club, who offered him the choice of fighting, or ransoming himself by coming back on New Year's day and bringing word what women most desire. Arthur puts this question in all quarters, and having collected many answers, in which, possibly, he had little confidence, he rides to keep his day.
On the way he meets a frightfully ugly woman; she intimates that she could help him. Arthur promises her Gawain in marriage, if she will, and she imparts to him the right answer. Arthur finds the baron waiting for him at the tarn, and presents first the answers which he had collected and written down. These are contemptuously rejected.
Arthur then says that he had met a lady on a moor, who had told him that a woman would have her will. The baron says that the misshapen lady on the moor was his sister, and he will burn her if he can get hold of her. Upon Arthur's return he tells his knights that he has a wife for one of them, and they ride with the king to see her, or perhaps for her to make her choice.
When they see the bride, they decline the match in vehement terms, all but Gawain, who is somehow led to waive "a little foul sight and misliking." She is bedded in all her repulsiveness, and turns to a beautiful young woman. To try Gawain's compliance further, she asks him whether he will have her in this likeness by night only or only by day.
Putting aside his own preference, Gawain leaves the choice to her, and this is all that is needed to keep her perpetually beautiful. For a stepmother had witched her to go on the wild moor in that fiendly shape until she should meet some knight who would let her have all her will. Her brother, under a like spell, was to challenge men either to fight with him at odds or to answer his hard question.
And then in another of many versions of the same Ballad (Child traveled all over Britain, Scotland and Ireland collecting the Ballads - he included no music only the words sung to him with any description offered by either the singer or those in the house or village where he hears the Ballad) and some give this version another name as The Weddynge of Sr Gawen and Dame Ragnell
This versions has Arthur, while hunting in Ingleswood, stalked and finally shot a great hart, which fell in a fern-brake. While the king, alone and far from his men, was engaged in making the assay, there appeared a groom, bearing the quaint name of Gromer Somer Joure, who grimly told him that he meant now to requite him for having taken away his lands. Arthur represented that it would be a shame to knighthood for an armed man to kill a man in green, and offered him any satisfaction. The only terms Gromer would grant were that Arthur should come back alone to that place that day twelvemonth, and then tell him what women love best; not bringing the right answer, he was to lose his head. The king gave his oath, and they parted.
The knights, summoned by the king's bugle, found him in heavy cheer, and the reason he would at first tell no man, but after a while took Gawain into confidence. Gawain advised that they two should ride into strange country in different directions, put the question to every man and woman they met, and write the answers in a book. This they did, and each made a large collection.
Gawain thought they could not fail, but the king was anxious, and considered that it would be prudent to spend the only month that was left in prosecuting the inquiry in the region of Ingleswood. Gawain agreed that it was good to be speering, and bade the king doubt not that some of his saws should help at need.
Arthur rode to Ingleswood, and met a lady, riding on a richly-caparisoned palfrey, but herself of a hideousness which beggars words; nevertheless the items are not spared. She came up to Arthur and told him that she knew his counsel; none of his answers would help. If he would grant her one thing, she would warrant his life; otherwise, he must lose his head. This one thing was that she should be Gawain's wife. The king said this lay with Gawain; he would do what he could, but it were a pity to make Gawain wed so foul a lady. " No matter," she rejoined, " though I be foul: choice for a mate hath an owl. When thou comest to thine answer, I shall meet thee; else art thou lost."
The king returned to Carlisle with a heart no lighter, and the first man he saw was Gawain, who asked how be had sped. Never so ill: he had met a lady who had offered to save his life, but she was the foulest he had ever seen, and the condition was that Gawain should be her husband. "Is that all?" said Gawain. "I will wed her once and again, though she were the devil; else were I no friend." Well might the king exclaim, "Of all knights thou bearest the flower!"
After five or six days more the time came for the answer. The king had hardly ridden a mile into the forest when he met the lady, by name Dame Ragnell. He told her Gawain should wed her, and demanded her answer. "Some say this and some say that, but above all things women desire to have the sovereignty; tell this to the knight; he will curse her that told thee, for his labor is lost." Arthur, thus equipped, rode on as fast as he could go, through mire and fen. Gromer was waiting, and sternly demanded the answer. Arthur offered his two books, for Dame Ragnell had told him to save himself by any of those answers if he could. "Nay, nay, king," said Gromer, "thou art but a dead man." "Abide, Sir Gromer, I have an answer shall make all sure. Women desire sovereignty." "She that told thee that was my sister, Dame Ragnell; I pray I may see her burn on a fire." And so they parted.
Dame Ragnell was waiting for Arthur, too, and would hear of nothing but immediate fulfillment of her bargain. She followed the king to his court, and required him to produce Gawain instantly, who came and plighted his troth. The queen begged her to be married privately, and early in the morning. Dame Ragnell would consent to no such arrangement. She would not go to church till high-mass time, and she would dine in the open hall. At her wedding she was dressed more splendidly than the queen, and she sat at the head of the table at the dinner afterwards. There her appetite was all but as horrible as her person: she ate three capons, three curlews, and great bake meats, all that was set before her, less and more.
She chided Gawain for his 'offishness', and begged him to kiss her, at least. "I will do more," said Gawain, and, turning, beheld the fairest creature he ever saw. But the transformed lady told him that her beauty would not hold: he must choose whether she should be fair by night and foul by day, or fair by day and foul by night. Gawain said the choice was hard, and left all to her. "Gramercy," said the lady, "thou shalt have me fair both day and night." Then she told him that her step-dame had turned her into that 'monstrons' shape by necromancy, not to recover her own till the best knight in England had wedded her and given her sovereignty in all points.
In yet another version the hoodie, a species of crow, having married the youngest of a farmer's three daughters, says to her, "Whether wouldst thou rather that I should be a hoodie by day and a man at night, or be a hoodie at night and a man by day?" The woman maintains her proper sovereignty, and does not leave the decision to him: "'I would rather that thou wert a man by day and a hoodie at night,' says she. After this he was a splendid fellow by day, and a hoodie at night." Then there is a German version where the choice is a bear by day or by night...
And so with all of that I am comfortable that these stories were altered during various times and in various locations and even more, since they were written several hundred years after they were supposed to take place I am sure the morality and thinking of the writers enter these stories. Probably explains why these Welsh versions differ from the French version which differs again from the versions we have of Robert de Baron
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look what I came across - The Adventures of Arthur at the Tarn Wadling https://www.sfsu.edu/~medieval/romances/awntyrs_rev.html
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Kilhwch and Olwen is a rather odd story. A large fraction of it is taken up with things that don't really advance the action. First, we have pages naming all of King Arthur's men and their parentage. Then we have brief descriptions of almost forty tasks Kilhwch must do before he can marry Olwen. These are done mostly by Arthur's men; we don't see much of Kilhwch. Then he claims Olwen and goes off with her, and that's it. During the second half of the story, about all he says is "It will be easy for me to compass this, although thou mayest think that it will not be easy."
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Read iin several sites that their identity with a family as part of a group determined who you were and what law you could turn to. Today we say we are from the US or Spain or China - National boundaries only came about when Kings were the leaders where as Arthur was only called a king but did not have the same concept of kingdom as later - Charlemagne's grandfather, Charles Martel appears to be the first king whose nobility is passed with the kingdom and a government that included law.
From everything I read the only law in Wales at the time of Arthur was an ancient code as compared to Rome or even the Visigothic Code was more current and written closer to a document we could understand... here is the Visigothic Code - https://libro.uca.edu/vcode/index.pdf
All to say the list of knights probably had more meaning when they were written down - we still ask a new acquaintance who was your daddy which sorta establishes someone's place as you continue if they related to this or that family - the list in the story sorta laid out the extent of the so called kingdom that was simply a land area with out firm boundaries other than what nature provided, like mountains and which knight was from what castle that included surrounding land where the peasants were still serfs whose payment was to get protection from the castle. - it appears it was a case of who pledged to be with us and who is not.
But yes, Pat you nailed it - not much action - I'm thinking it would be as if someone was listing all the ranchers in south Texas who seem to sit together and vote as a block for certain government positions. This was the group it was important to get some oil and gas men included back in the 1940s and 50s. I guess if we knew where the castle of each knight was located it would make a point explaining the extent of Arthur's kingdom.
From what I've read Charles Martel started his sovereignty over a certain land area by including and getting the blessings and support of the Catholic Church over the earlier leaders who were more like Arthur, there by virtue of his own merit or by some magic the people believed ran in the blood of a certain family. However, as a story it was like trying to pick out the bits from thousands of words and names.
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Tomorrow we start of The Dream of Rhonabwy https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm
Its far shorter a story than we have had so far - good - busy week... Thanksgiving on Thursday - forgot till I only read yesterday - remember learning that as a kid that the Pilgrims landed on December 22 and I forgot now which President established Thanksgiving as a national holiday.
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Yes, Barb, ancestry was important. I kind of wondered if one purpose of this particular telling of the story was partly archival.
The sagas start off with even longer genealogies, going back 3 generations or more. Of course they are partly keeping track of who they are mad at. They never forget a grudge.
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Now we're getting to the part that particularly interests me. Many of the Arthurian legends are familiar to me, though not these particular ones, but I'm really eager to read these other stories, more particularly tied into Welsh history, which I've only seen a tiny bit of elsewhere.
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For one thing Pat reading the Arthur stories as a discussion of the Mabinogion I'm learning for the first time the varied authors who added bits and pieces to what we can call the Arthur saga - and so now another peek into the stories from the ancient history of Wales - with frybabe's roots in Wales I wonder how much of these stories were everyday references in today's Welsh culture. I can see this time in history continuing to be tweaked as those whose life's work appears to be tracking down any bit of history surrounding Arthur. In fact I never realized he originated in Wales - so much easy access today seems to focus on the romantic aspect of the story - I never got into the Avalon books either - I think there are three to that series which I'm anxious now to read.
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Looks like another list of names...
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Barb, I tried the first Avalon book and couldn't get into it at all. Something in the style put me off. I'm in the minority, though. The books are much admired.
Did you notice how Kilhwch's father picked a second wife after Kilhwch's mother died?
"Said one of his counsellors, "I know a wife that will suit thee well, and she is the wife of King Doged." And they resolved to go to seek her; and they slew the king, and brought away his wife and one daughter that she had along with her. And they conquered the king's lands."
You sure didn't get to pick your fate if you were a woman.
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ah so I guess I should be thankful for what happened in my early years compared to this - sheesh - yes, but then it fits with my research on the Church and found to this day the belief is that life is active and since the sperm is active and the egg passive men are superior - yep... it's like how much more and then recently after reading the Tao for years someone in China interprets the ying yang as dark and light - void and life - passive and active - female and male - its never ending... and since forever there is this concept that feelings are female and therefore not to be considered, I am sure that was how the mating of couples were arranged by these 'good' knights - sans feelings even of the grief for a husband murdered.
Pat I am tackling this backwards but I too am clearing out so that I can move either next year or the latest the following year - I think up the road a bit to Salado - Austin is no longer the city I knew and will only get worse - more folks here now from other areas of the country and the world than there are Texans much less Austinites. For the past couple of years, gradually at first all the iconic restaurants and small shops are closing and the City Council has gone nuts - I'm too old to get in the middle of the fray as I did in the past - time to hang it up and let those who will be living here for the next 40 or more years work it out - although I get the impression many do not see the city as a home but more as a stopping off point and that is part of the problem. They are taking from the city rather than giving back. - well too easy to go on a rant but I know you've been clearing out for a major move and thought I would share I am also sorting through and trashing 53 years of living in this house.
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Barb, I really don't know to what extent the Arthur legends are regarded in Wales. I think the legend of the origin of the flag is pretty well set in stone, though. Mom certainly never told us any of the Arthur tales, nor did we ever get any Arthur related gifts from overseas. I guess girls were not thought of as being interested in such adventures (I've always liked adventure tales). When Mom was growing up the Welsh language was still not being taught in the schools. Although the English "overlords" were for a very long time trying to stamp out the Welsh language (and, I would imagine some of the culture as a result, though I am only guessing at that), they never quite succeeded. All my years growing up, the King Arthur legend, to me, was a tale of English Knights. It has only been relatively recently that I became aware that he was actually Welsh. I suspect this resurgence in learning Welsh has also sparked a higher interest in Welsh history and folk tales and legends.
Sorry to hear about the changes in the Austin area. I've been hearing noises from my girlfriend in Colorado about the changes in Denver and surrounds too. She has said that in some areas property prices have plummeted, and there have been some altercations between the newcomers and long-time residents. I think that includes the Californians that have moved into the state and brought Californian ideas/ideals with them that Coloradans do not share, especially those ideas that put areas of California into the state they are in now.
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Yep frybabe, same here with Californians along with some from NYC - only the opposite, our property values are soaring - affordability is out the window for teachers, police, firemen and most service workers.
For us the issue is a mayor who turned on what he was voted in as and has embraced UN Agenda 21 to the extent of traveling to California and arranging with Newsom, he thought secretly, for thousands of homeless to be bused here where they set up their tents in public places - we had about 2000 homeless and were inching along to take care of them however, since last Spring they have been flowing in so the estimate now is 11,000 -
He also tied the hands of the police giving the homeless carte blanch with the excuse they had no money to pay a fine - he removed the 'no camping in public' that was established back in 2002 while they continued to work on the problem and now, he further tying the hands of police with no low crime for any citizen to be ticketed - the drug dealers have multiplied 10 fold as this is really a drug addiction issue politely called a homeless issue. Which means we now have a large presence of Mexican Cartels that has not yet erupted in violence.
All this as a form of a land grab where he spent 8 million of tax payer money to buy a defunct hotel that will only house less then 200 and the appraised value of the structure was less then 3 million -
I've had them strew all over my front lawn (their dining room) their left over paper and food during the night from a nearby Wendy's, that now closes early and they use my front lawn as their bathroom killing several of my plants - Getting out and cleaning up their mess is no longer easy on my body - there is a recall petition however he is in office till 2022 and all this in a year as he continues to barrel on -
The town is exploding with so many high tech companies so that we have been receiving for over 10 years an average of 150 people a day - not enough housing and now he is changing all the zoning with a new code so any in-town property will be able to be replaced with multi story housing in established neighborhood without any concern for traffic or parking. He does all this because of how the changes were worded so that we thought we were voting for one thing and all we were really voting for was to give more power to the City Council to act without any citizen input.
It is a mess and I only see once the barn door is opened you can never close it back to they way it was. And yes, I see change must take place when only 9 years ago we were pushing to say we were a town of a million and in the next 20 years we will be a town of 4 and a half million. It is the lawlessness that concerns me the most - if you have not read UN Agenda 21 and Agenda 2030 I suggest you do so -
The Agenda's sound benign enough on the UN page till you listen to a few explanations available on Youtube. All it appears to take is to line an elected officials pocket or show them how they can make a fortune and inch by inch the US becomes a step child to the UN.
After seeing the PBS real story of the Hatfield and McCoy's and its relationship to the industrialization of America so that folks in the area lost their independence and became minions to industry, I am seeing that is what is going on now as we are in a fight to keep our nation and our own constitution rather than becoming a minion of the UN, replacing our constitution with theirs which does not promise the opportunities or some of the freedoms as the US Constitution
I'm also seeing a before-change as these stories of Arthur explain a way of life that when gun powder made change, like so many changes, they threw the baby out with the bath water. Now my question is does change leave no room for the baby?
Well bottom line I'm too old to effectively take on this fight - the stress alone affects my ability to physically function and so best is to move out. I've seen lots of change since I moved in this house in 1967 but it was change that in time we adjusted but this change are users taking what was good and what worked in Austin and leaving behind a dead carcass.
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Barb, I don't know about the homeless situation in the Denver area, but there is a problem with a large influx of people from south of the border being resettled in that area. It seems the gov and/or low rent housing entities are buying up houses and placing these people in those houses. In the case of her friend, his new neighbors were partying loudly and other things that were disturbing the peace and some of which were against local ordinances. He went over to ask them to tone it down. The result of that was he was visited by the police (and the appropriate Feds) and taken away in handcuffs. I expect there was more to the story than Leslie reported to me, but it appears her friend is not alone in seeing this new influx of people ignoring or ignorant of our laws and ordinances and the resulting degradation of property values.
Here, we are not hearing much. Yet. There is a growing Muslim population in the Lehigh Valley (Allentown area), but I don't hear much if anything about conflicts with others. A large Muslim enclave there is headed by an Imam who is the subject of ongoing attempts by the Iranian government to have him sent back for prosecution for activities against the regime.
Okay, back to our current story. I noticed that more attention is being paid to describing the clothing and coordinating coverings of the knights' horses. Other than that, nothing is jumping out at me this time. Owain is just now showing up in the story. However, I have been a little distracted this week, so I need to pay more attention and reread some of it.
I watched the first of three half hour programs on Amazon Prime called Celtic Myths. It starts out with Arthur, goes on to Boudicca, and then describes a myth about a giant who had given his sister to an Irish king whose household treated her badly. So, here is a myth about the Welsh invading Ireland to rescue the maiden. It was in interesting tale including the explanation of some of the customs regarding Celtic marriages. What interested me most about this first episode, though, is the explanation of the importance of the cauldron to the Celtic tribes and showed some of the cauldrons that have been unearthed.
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Forever since I did that - lost my entire post - ah so...
Wishing everyone a wonderful Thanksgiving Day that is full of gratitude - which makes me aware how grateful I am that y'all are joining this discussion about a wonderful book that is giving us so many bits to research and so many documentaries to watch - we will know our Arthur stories for sure and that is a wonderful satisfying feeling... back on Friday...
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Barb, I expect there is a lot of symbolism in Rhonabwy's dream. I can't make much sense out of King Arthur dismissing the men who came to complain about the Raven attacks while he plays games of chess. Interesting that while Rhonabwy lay sleeping and dreaming on a yellow calfskin, yellow to be a favorite color for the clothing, banners, etc. that the Knights were wearing.
Here is a video I watched last night. Not much to do with Arthur, but does show Cardiff Castle and Caerphilly Castle. When we were there, we visited Cardiff Castle, but were not able to go inside because of a wedding going on. The castle keep looks a lot bigger on film than I remember, and I don't remember going inside. Too bad the video does not show any of the bookshelves with the shelve covers down. Caerphilly was not open to the public when we were there, so we only got to see it from the road as we went by. I never knew there was a Roman museum or Roman ruins nearby. Yeah, I know. It begins with nothing to do with Wales. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r6kRXiai_4
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Interesting Frybabe - enjoyed the film - he sure talks fast as if a recording that the speed was accidentally put on fast... goodness... but he would hit on various words for emphasis and that made him easy to follow. Time is funny - when 18th century history is shown it seems like so long ago and yet when Roman ruins are shown it seems amazing that 2000 years later we can still see their footprint. And then for a castle to act as an effective fortress for 1500 years is jaw dropping.
The Chaucer room reminded me years ago one of the agents in our office was marketing a house in which Chaucer was the theme of this entire house - large, on the lake, with an huge, 2 story, glassed indoor pool - the fascinating part was every room had low beamed ceilings and as much 15 and 16th century furniture that they could find and have shipped over. Some of the walls were painted as if an illustration from the book and all the bathroom and kitchen tile work was imprinted with symbols and scenes from the stories. Actually tastefully done - and of course an upstairs library holding what looked like every book ever published about medieval Europe. I never did hear and wondered if the buyer kept the theme of the property.
Trying to put some of this in perspective - Chaucer's tales were written in the 14th century which is later than when the Arthur tales were committed to paper - aha so Beowulf was put to paper also at the same time as the Arthur stories - seems to me I saw some film showing life during the time of Beowulf - should take a look - so many films on my saved page and I've things to do - but no decent TV and so I may get a few under my belt.
Rainy and just getting cold today - no predicted winter storm yesterday and hardly a storm today - maybe in other areas of the country. Noticed they had a re-run of the Macy parade later in the day yesterday. Sunday is December 1 - Advent begins...
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While looking for info on YouTube about the Reconquista in Spain, I ran across a video showing an interesting helmet. No, it doesn't have anything to do with what we are reading, but several pieces of artwork shown during the video includes a very interesting helmet. So I went in search of a good picture of this helmet and finally found a good one. http://segwaytripvalencia.com/es/component/tags/tag/arte James I of Aragon (aka: James I the Conqueror) lived between 1208 and 1276.
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BLACK Primordial darkness; the non-manifest; the Void; evil; the darkness of death; shame; despair; destruction; corruption; grief; sadness; humiliation; renunciation; gravity; constancy. Heraldic: Prudence; wisdom.
GREEN Ambivalent as both life and death in the vernal green of life and the livid green of death; also as youth, hope and gladness but equally change, transitoriness and jealousy. Compounded of blue and yellow, heaven and earth combined, green forms the mystic colour; it also combines the cold blue light of the intellect with the emotional warmth of the yellow sun to produce the wisdom of equality, hope, renewal of life and resurrection... and in medieval times it became the colour of the Trinity, Epiphany and St John the Evangelist.
RED The zenith of colour; represents the sun and all war gods. It is the masculine, active principle; fire; the sun; royalty; love; joy; festivity; passion; ardour; energy; ferocity; sexual excitement; the bridal torch or fire; health; strength; also blood; blood-lust; blood-guiltiness; anger; vengeance; martyrdom; fortitude; faith; magnanimity. It can also be the colour of the desert and calamity. Staining or painting red depicts renewal of life. Red with white is death; red with white and black represent the three stages of initiation.
WHITE The undifferentiated; transcendent perfection; simplicity; light; sun; air; illumination; purity; innocence; chastity; holiness; sacredness; redemption; spiritual authority. A white robe indicates purity, chastity or the triumph of the spirit over the flesh;...the White Lily, is woman, the feminine principle, the moon, silver, quicksilver, the purity of undivided light and the second stage of the Great Work.
YELLOW Ambivalent, light or golden yellow is solar; the light of the sun; intellect; intuition; faith and goodness. Dark yellow denotes treachery; treason; jealousy; ambition; avarice; secrecy; betrayal; faithlessness.
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sumpter pack is A packhorse; a beast of burden.
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Gold The sun; illumination; the self-luminous; the quality of sacredness; incorruptibility; wisdom; durability; the equilibrium of all metallic properties; nobility; honour; superiority; wealth.
Silver The moon; virginity; the feminine aspect with gold as the masculine; the Queen with the King as gold.
Chess The royal game of life; the conflict between the spiritual powers of light and darkness; angels and demons struggling for domination of the world; existence as a field of action of opposing powers and forces; manifestation and re-absorption.
Raven A talking bird, hence prophecy; otherwise ambivalent as either solar or the darkness of evil, as wisdom or the destruction of war. Ravens and wolves are often familiars of primitive gods of the dead...the ‘Raven of Battle’, symbolizes war; bloodshed; panic; malevolence...When all black the raven is a bird of ill-omen, but with a white feather it becomes beneficent.
Eagle Solar; the symbol of all sky gods; the meridian sun; the spiritual principle; ascension; inspiration; release from bondage; victory; pride; contemplation; apotheosis; royalty; authority; strength; height; the element of air. Thought to be able to fly up to the sun and gaze unwaveringly upon it and to identify with it, the eagle represents the spiritual principle in man which is able to soar heavenwards.
BLUE Truth; the Intellect; revelation; wisdom; loyalty; fidelity; constancy; chastity; chaste affections; spotless reputation; magnanimity; prudence; piety; peace; contemplation; coolness. Blue is the colour of the great deep, the feminine principle of the waters; as sky-blue it is the colour of the Great Mother, Queen of Heaven and of all sky gods or sky powers, such as the Azure Dragon. It is also the Void; primordial simplicity and infinite space which, being empty, can contain everything. It is also a lunar colour.
Spanish Laton is brass
Leopard Cruelty; ferocity; aggression; intrepidity. The leopard’s spots resembling eyes, the animal is called the Great Watcher.
Ruby: Royalty, dignity, zeal, power, love, passion, beauty, longevity, invulnerability.
Sapphire: Truth, heavenly virtues, celestial contemplation, chastity, apotropaic.
Jewels symbolize hidden treasures of knowledge or truth... The cutting and shaping of precious stones signifies the soul shaped from the rough, irregular, dark stone into the gem, regular in shape and reflecting divine light.
Lion Ambivalent as both solar and lunar, good and evil... the fiery principle; majesty; strength; courage; fortitude; justice; law; military might; the King of the Beasts; but it is also cruelty; ferocity; and the sub-human modes of life; it is a symbol of war and an attribute of war gods.
Ash typifies adaptability, prudence, modesty.
Griffin A fabulous beast with the head and talons of an eagle and body of a lion, without wings, in heraldry. It symbolizes the sun, the sky, the light of dawn turning to gold, also the combined powers of the eagle and lion. As a guardian of treasures it denotes vigilance and vengeance.
Cooper, J. C.. An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols . Thames & Hudson. Kindle Edition.
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This last bit says to me that the entire dream used symbolism and it appears that symbolism even in the middle ages required a book as a reference.
And this is the reason that no one knows the dream without a book, neither bard nor gifted seer; because of the various colours that were upon the horses, and the many wondrous colours of the arms and of the panoply, and of the precious scarfs, and of the virtue-bearing stones.
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OK here is what I think will be best - Not only is Pat out of town till the middle of the week but also there is not as much time this holiday season - there are other books I have neglected plus, bunches of videos on the middle ages, Arthur, the Celts, Norman's, Saxons on and on it goes - I've 8 series and 12 single movies on all these subjects to watch.
I'm thinking since this chapter is the last of this group, according to how Lady Guest arranged her book, let's finish with this chapter and pick up after the New Year with Branwen the Daughter of Llyr - The discussion will be here so anything anyone wants to add till after the New Year will be fine - I may, as I watch some of the video's, share a bit but, as to the discussion, let's finish this chapter this week on Pwyll Prince of Dyved and then take our break.
We have learned so much reading just this first half so that I am really looking forward to the next half of the book - thanks frybabe - this was a great suggestion and then it was on the strength of your early suggestion that we chose the Mabinogion - just that alone - we learned what Mabinogion means. We have come so far...
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Thanks Barb. I knew the Ravens had to be a portend of things nasty to come, but I didn't know the color symbolism. It makes sense that the "house" which a knight represents would use a color symbol to announce from afar what the house stands for or how they think of themselves, especially when it comes to rallying the troops or intimidating the enemy. The tradition continues to this day with patches, badges, standards and flags, etc.
Okay by me if we take a break. I am actually getting more out of researching things Welsh and Celtic than I am out of the stories. And, I think I saw somewhere that Beowulf probably came out of the same story telling tradition that the King Arthur stories did, and in nearly the same time period. Archaeological evidence supporting elements of the Beowulf saga go back to the 6th century. The significance of cauldrons to the Celts is of especial interest. Now I wonder if that has a much longer tradition/history. I remember cauldrons being featured in various ancient Greek poems and plays. Something else to research.
When I was young I couldn't or didn't see all these connections. It wasn't until James Burke's Connections series that I really started noticing that everything is connected in some way or another, even if it is obscure.
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Yes I agree frybabe, the research seems to be more valuable and interesting - the chapter stories do point us into new directions and includes bits to look into - and so we do this week Pwyll Prince of Dyved then take our break... wonderful.
Interesting I never thought of it that we still keep the color and symbolism going with patches and the like - I guess medals for bravery and all the ribbons on a soldier's uniform - business seems to do recognition with designed shapes more than color but that too often enters the design - I Realize now my son-in-law chose yellow and black for his logo - oh dear - Black is not exactly the best color symbolism and yet, used often for business logos - now the Heraldic: Prudence; wisdom works well - and then football and baseball teams have their colors
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Hello - I think I took on more than I could manage. I really enjoy reading this book and looking at all the postings. I just can't manage it all right now. Thanks for being such a welcoming group. I hope to catch up with all of you on another book at a later time.
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That's okay, Marmieone. I take it you are taking a Latin class. It took up a lot of my time too. Stick with it though, it gets more interesting as you progress. I particularly liked translating Caesar and Pliny.
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Marmieone you are not alone - we are all feeling a bit overwhelmed - we will be picking up after the holidays - you may want to peek in then - we are doing this chapter on Pwyll Prince of Dyved and since each chapter is an individual story to miss it does not affect the future reading -
Since Fybabe and myself are interested in far more than the story we will continue to post our research but the actual book we pick up again on January 6 - if you can why not catch up with us then - if you are not able to continue then you did what you were able and the discussion is always here to just read what we are sharing -
Glad you kept up with us... hope you enjoyed your reading so far and good luck with Latin - I keep thinking I will join but had 4 years of Latin back in High School when that was a requirement along with 3 years of another language which for me was French - and so the excitement of doing something new is not there, plus Roman History was not my favorite - I was always more fascinated with their Germanic enemies ;) .
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Interesting start to the tale, what with the white dogs with red ears and the owner riding a white horse and wearing a grey robe. Reminded me of a wizard, which was kind of confirmed when the offending hunter agreed to exchange bodies and territory for a year. A lesson to be learned here, I think.
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Reminded me right off of that children's story where the two boys change places - for the life of me I cannot remember the name of the story - a classic...
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The Prince and the Pauper. Forgot about that. Never read it.
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this time of year and my heart turns to music - found a great youtube with Christmas Gregorian chant...
During the time of Arthur, music was still monophonic also known as plainsong - one voice carrying the tune with a background that sorta harmonized by was more like a drone backing - if you play something like a Dulcimer or better yet, most have heard bag pipes - there is a drone sound behind the tune- that sound, using voices can be quite lovely as they are in the Gregorian Christmas youtube music.
It was not until the 10th century, about the time the first of the Arthur stories were committed to paper that polyphonic music was developed - that is where two or later more voices harmonized with each other - at first two voices duplicated the tune an octave apart and then there was harmony with the drone chorus still present.
As to the often heard expression Gregorian chant is simply all the music that Pope Gregory approved became Gregorian Chant - there are other groups of Chants example Ambrosian, Mozarabic, the Carthusian Chant - before the Vatican II changes, there were 52 rites and each had their music that had its origination in monophonic sounds.
This is really lovely - Christmas Gregorian Medieval Christmas music in plainsong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuvWMNXn6vI
Here is a short 2 minutes Christmas time Mozarabic chant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg6g8rpAu04
6 minutes an Old Roman Christmas time chant from the 6th century
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_Ez91zGm4Y
OK here we go... an opportunity to hear the difference as the Carthusian monks sing one of the medieval chants, Salve Regina followed by the Gregorian version and ah just found the Templar Knights version - This has been sung since the 12th and 13th century and so a bit later after polyphonic music was chanted but, Salve Regina is chanted in plainsong or monophonic
You gotta put up with an Ad first...Carthusian monks chant Salve Regina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiSqIg4Hxn8
Hear the difference... the Gregorian, Salve Regina
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLMeHBkLQJo
And here is the Templar knights version of Salve Regina (rah rah no ad)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uj8h4SCsnE
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Wonderful, Barb.
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Barb I copied your selections over onto the Classical Corner discussion group in our sister site, Seniors and Friends without the explanations. Some of the gang over there have not registered here or have trouble doing so.
I especially liked the Salve Regina comparisons. It is one of my favorites. If memory serves correctly, we translated Salve Regina in one of the Latin classes a year or so ago.
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Glad you enjoyed the selections - this is one of my favorite listening music - probably since it is close to the early Ballads that come directly from this early history of music - do not play my dulcimer as I did but the sound and use of the voice seems more perfect singing, playing and hearing it in a wooded area rather than here in these wide open spaces.
Winter with the dark closing in early and keeping the lights low in the house works for me as I imagine myself back in Kentucky. One of my favorite's this time of year is the John Jacob Niles, I Wonder as I Wander out Under the Sky
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRMSmaA-1-I
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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | January 06.......Branwen the Daughter of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab22.htm)
January 13.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab24.htm)
January 20.......Math the Son of Mathonwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab26.htm)
January 27.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab28.htm)
February 03.....The Story of Lludd and Llevelys (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab30.htm)
February 10.....Taliesin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab32.htm)
|
Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
_________________________________________________________________________
Here it is Saturday and I have yet to finish Pwyll's story. Or stories? I am part way through the story of the Lady. It looks like she is playing one suitor against the other and making them both wait for her answer. The beginning sequence is interesting, since it kind of reminds me of dreams where you strive towards something and it continues to keep itself just out of reach. If I think of it, I am going to look it up in dream analysis. Freud and Jung probably have something to say about it.
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Whoops I missed the heading and here I was the last one to post on the preceding page - sorry frybabe
And yes, I too have not finished the story(ies) - Officially we have yet another day since we were doing Monday to Monday - got lazy knowing we were picking up after the holidays - spent time this week shopping and deciding how I was going to gift folks this year. Also what has me all cattywampus is this go round of fund raising for PBS - I do not watch much TV but I do look forward to end my day Sat. Sun. Mon and Thur. with Masterpiece and a few Brit Coms.
This fund raising is 3 weeks of absolutely nothing - they have a few 90 minute musical shows and an recap of Poldark and Durrells - period - over and over and over - and so my TV has been off for 2 weeks and I've one more week to go - I did get to see Charlie Brown's Christmas the other night on regular TV but this break in my routine is not making me a happy camper so that I am not getting as much accomplished, including my reading... Hope to get caught up and finish the chapter tonight and if there is any left for sure tomorrow... want to get my cards out tomorrow and with the weather being so pretty I have yard work that sorely needs completing.
Holiday or not I am thankful for the recess - saturated with 6th to 14th century Europe is on the verge of over kill - the break will be welcome.
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Well! I think these people have something of a mean streak in them, duping the other suitor for a whole year and setting up an elaborate trouncing once he arrives at the end of that year. And then there were the troops waiting in ambush at the orchard just waiting for the signal to commence attack.
Something I noticed when reading about the rules of combat that lasted a very long time, going way back at least to Troy and most probably beyond that I didn't quite get until recently. When armies gathered to engage in a fight, they often would sent out their chosen warrior (usually the best they had) into the ground between the armies in order to engage in single combat ahead of the general battle. Personal one-on-one combat was valued above all else, and sometimes, the outcome resolved the conflict (at least temporarily) before others became involved. I don't recall the Roman army engaging much in this practice. When firearms showed up, the practice definitely fell by the wayside. While focusing on one or two individuals, these stories give you a vague awareness of the armies or groups backing up each opponent standing off to the side and waiting for the outcome of the individual conflict.
It appears that in dream analysis, the lady riding by who continues to be just out of reach represents a goal in real life that you feel is just out of reach in real life. Making and following a plan to reach your real life goal generally resolves the dream. In this story we see that Pwyll tried unsuccessfully to reach the lady several times before he modified his plan enough to be able to catch up to her. Then he followed her instructions (the plan itself?) to reach that goal. Set a goal, make a viable plan, follow that plan, modify as necessary, be persistent, achieve your goal.
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hmm we all get something different - I see in this the story of Jesus in the form of a women - she is elusive and then with the proper petition allows herself to be known - ask and you shall receive - and then is betrayed by those close to her - both Judas' betrayal and Peter's denial in the Garden - her punishment that is not a crucifixion but she is banned under rough conditions and then the babe if found as if the disbelievers and those on the edge of believing were united and his name would be... not Jesus in this case but a leader's son.
With a story going back this far it shows it must be human nature to blame another rather than admit wrong doing - what was really astonishing is that to this day leadership will take the side of the many rather than loose their support... and then the way I see it, the lady on horseback, you can pursue and pursue but unless you ask nothing is achieved - like marketing - you can sell and sell but unless you ask for the order there is no sale.
In some ways this seemed the easiest story but then it could be it took this many chapters to get used to the style of story telling.
Well tons to do and so I'll be in very haphazard till closer to the big day...
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Gosh, what things I find on Project Gutenberg when looking for other things. George Saintsbury popped up. What a treasure trove of Literary History and critical analysis. One I have downloaded already, The Flourishing of Romance and the Rise of Allegory, and the other I just noticed and will download later, A History of the French Novel, Vol. 1 . Both of these have chapters regarding writers and writings including about the Authurian legends in Medieval times. Now all I have to do is actually read them.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26838
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21600 unfortunately, PG does not list Vol I, so I don't know what is in that.
About George Saintsbury: https://www.britannica.com/biography/George-Saintsbury
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You did find a treasure trove didn't you - taken just a brief look and decided to read later... I get myself all in a knot over making an appropriate change to my lifestyle and then it hits that during the time in history we are reading, change took generations and here I am trying to do it in a couple of years - talk about the world speeding up -
Of course with the holiday I thought I would look to see how the knights and castles celebrated - finding much about a Tudor Christmas but not anything yet about Christmas in the 11th or 10th or back in the 6th century much less anything that is medieval in Wales - I wonder if celebrating the Winter Solstice was overriding any Christian celebration - would fit that both have to do with light in the darkness -
Well for today I need to run several errands and that usually means a nap when I return. Crispy cold here today and I am wearing these gifted snugly boot length, fluffy lined, Nordic knitted socks with a leather sole so I could even go out to get the mail... tra la...
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I wonder why...
Been reading The Obstacle the Way based on the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius which I also downloaded - and it hit me -
Why are the writings of men before A.D. revered and placed in the annals of philosophy - translated into pure magic easily understood where as the writings of men who experienced life a thousand or more years later with its truths are seldom if ever quoted as words of wisdom much less included in man's understanding of himself and the world in which he lives?
And further why are those who lived a couple of thousand years earlier revered and special where as those who lived in the 4th to 6th century are still questioned as myths - even the magic symbolism of Jesus is given more due and respect than the magic of Merlin -
Now I understand that no matter how wonderful the magic of women would be discounted and since no woman is given her probable due in the Bible they are all safe but how about some of the ancient women of Greece and Rome - really sirens luring a soldier on his way home keeping him around for years and referred to as a metaphor to this day - but yet, the women who lured knights are dismissed as nothing more than a fanciful myth - how come?
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Barb, here is my early morning musing on your question. I suspect a combination of factors contributed to the dearth of written records and general lack of information to the general public. With the fall of the Roman Empire came a lot of conflict as others jockeyed for positions of power, the feudal system arose, and the church seemed to gain an iron hand over what was appropriate for the general population to know. Keep in mind that the greatest repositories of knowledge, as far as i know, were church sponsored. Many of these were destroyed (in England at least) during raids and fights between church and kings. People had enough on their hands to keep from being slaughtered and keep food on the table for themselves and their families. The feudal system discouraged people living on the feudal lord's lands from moving about much. Subsistence farming and frequent raiding parties created little time to learning things not necessary to making a living. The church did do some educating, but I am not up on just how much, and then everything was censored by church officials. Businessmen/merchants did get around to spread ideas and such, but it was a slow process and primary education among that group remained apprenticeship for learning a trade. What wasn't destroyed by various conflagrations and bad climate conditions had a chance to survive. Oh, and the aristocracy mostly a well educated group, but like the church, I think they considered an education the prerogative of their position and, for the most part, the general population didn't need to know anything other than what was needed to do their jobs, whether it was farming, ironwork, or fighting, etc. Another thought, most of those who did get some education found a way to pay for the classes. No free public education, even in Rome and Athens. Education was revered by the Romans and Grecians, and by others where war and constant conflict are missing. Much (all?) of written history is filtered through the eyes of those who write it and can be inaccurate and very biased, so archeological evidence is sometimes essential. The oral tales, may have begun as an item of "news" which through many tellings got embellished and ending up in the realm of myth, legend and fantasy.
Well, I didn't really answer your question, and I ran out of steam for moment.
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doubt we will ever really get to the bottom of this but I saw the Church being as down on the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome where as yes, in England the kings were vying for the position of power.
As to the Church that is an interesting story that because they became so powerful the story is told to fit the narrative - having spent years looking into early church history that at the same time I happened to be reading the history of those tribes that were later to make up German, Netherlands, Belgium and France - actually I was trying to find when all this Jewish hatred started and I think I found it - anyhow in the process in the Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany there is an easier to read account (elsewhere as well but so much thrown in its difficult to sort out)
Seems from 479 to 485 the Visigoths were the most powerful in Europe as was their King - The Visigoth king codified law that included kings should die a natural death. Euric's was not willing to wait and hooks up with the Frankish King Clovis whose wife was a Christian and converted Clovis - Christianity had not stopped Clovis from all the slaughter typical of the times however, during his reign many a monistary was built in what is now Germany - After the death of Clovis his sons inherited his 'kingly grace' which the belief was special ancient blood flowed in their veins that made them magical and if they walked for instance on a field they could make crops grow.
However, they were lazy and when the Franks came along and it was a battle over both the hero worship of Saint Martin of Tours, an ordinary soldier who became a monk and later a Bishop was supposed to have met Jesus who disguised himself as a beggar and Martin shared his cloak that was revered as the Merovingian King's most powerful relic versus the Franks knowledge of how to bake bread, lay bricks, blow glass, make iron farm tools - this back and forth continues on into the time of the Carolingians when Charles Martel's basterd son Pepin III is made king - although Martel conquered most of the tribes in Europe the magic and St. Martin of Tour's cape gave the Merovingian kings more power and so Pepin gets the bright idea to be crowned by the Church whose grace and power come directly from God. Tra la Through this act the Church was given more power as being equal in overseeing and governing most of Europe.
Now inside Rome the Church again came to the rescue - as Rome was falling apart the everyday city services were no longer available, like garbage collection - but more important there was no codified law - the Roman kings and emperors were the law and administered what law was traditional. There were lots of land disputes and paternity disputes that gradually the people could go the the Church courts and have a judgement and so little by little as Rome fell the Church filled the breach without really a plan - (looks like where ever there is law that gives you the upper hand) the huge change in power came about with Constantine.
Lots of early alliances, battles, joining his father in France to cross and take on, winning a battle in what is now York followed by more good moves towards cementing power there is this..."After his victory over Licinius in 324, Constantine wrote that he had come from the farthest shores of Britain as God’s chosen instrument for the suppression of impiety, and in a letter to the Persian king Shāpūr II he proclaimed that, aided by the divine power of God, he had come to bring peace and prosperity to all lands." He is instrumental in getting the church to declare the Council of Nicaea which formed the basis for what we know today as the Roman Catholic religion and laid the ground work for the Church, when adding the power it assumed by crowning Pepin III, to be the Holy Roman Empire.
The Council is when the final nail is in the coffin of followers being officially called Christians, where as, they had been known as followers of Jesus and were basically Jews. Although the word Christian had been bandied about since just before the year 200. Constantine came to power in the very early 300s, the First Council of Nicaea, 325 where the 'Roman' Catholic Church became official as it officially separated from Constantinople and the Eastern Orthodox Church.
The first universities were built in the 11th century (Bologna 1088, Oxford 1096, Cambridge 1209) and so if you wanted an education you had to become a Catholic Priest - that did not mean you practiced your priesthood - many like Petrarch, poet (born 1304) and his brother did not. However, education was only available and later predominately in the monasteries. This carried on into the new World - e.g. Fordham Prep (High School for boys) and Fordham Univeristy in NY, a Jesuit monastery.
Back to Constantine - his earliest moves was to donate land and buildings to the Bishop of Rome - and that is another story how all churches at first had to have a bishop anointed and assigned by the Pope and a relic (body part) from the earliest sainted followers of Christ and of course having a piece of the cross was tops. In and around Rome there were something like 140 churches and these Bishops eventually became the first Cardinals.
After all that I am seeing your thought that education controlled by the church would have an influence however, why the emphasis on learning Greek and Latin - even when I went to school most Catholic high schools required you take 4 years of one or the other and sometimes both - which meant translating all those ancient stories - was that it - the middle age stories about knights and their code was written in a colloquial language (English, Welsh, French) as compared to what had been established for several hundred years as classical language?
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Well, I can't fault the Church too much because they did keep education alive in areas where the Muslims did not have influence, even if it were just available for the few who had the intellect, the time, the money, and the interest to pursue it. The Romans tended to have a "thing" for all things Greek. If you had dealings with the Roman Empire and its inhabitants you had to know Greek or Latin. They were kind of the universal languages of the day, just like English is now, and who knows what it will be in the future. A universal language is a very handy thing. The Church, with its beginnings in Rome, chose to use Latin. My guess is that Latin stuck around so long because no other language managed to cross the barriers of all these different countries except for Latin until English came along. After Rome fell, I would credit that to the Church and their missionaries. Also consider that Latin and Greek are writ large as being at the root of a number of languages today. However English managed to rise to the top is probably a convoluted journey, but Latin and Greek, at least for what we call Western Civilization, are still sitting in the wings and still useful.
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From my perspective frybabe English only became universal after WWII - I'm remembering before the UN and before WWII it was both French and German - you had to know French if you were going into Finance and of course Trade and even our government much less international affairs the communication was French - High Schools in the South always included French as it was the other important language learned in all high schools however, if you were going into medicine you had to know German - years ago a doctor explained to me that until WWII most books on medicine were written in German and before WWII Germany was considered the best place to get an education in medicine
I'm remembering German was seldom taught in High Schools - I bet that was a decision taken after WWI but do not know for a sure - and so Med students had to take a crash course in German during their first year of pre-med - I do know here in Central Texas until as late as the early 1960s German was still the first language used in many grade and high schools in this area - lots of German and Bohemian communities including a heavy German influence here in Austin.
On the bigger national stage I think it was when science in the early twentieth century stepped out that broke the attached at the hip German influence in medicine and WWII probably cemented that move - not sure of that, just a vague memory of reading it someplace - remember Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain - not thought unusual the setting being in the German speaking part of Switzerland although Mann was German and the location in Davos gave his story a more universal appeal.
And yet, through all this yes, you are right that is the force isn't it because Latin was still used even for important documents - I'm vaguely remembering most legal documents including mortgages were still written in Latin when I was a kid.
With English now dominate and fewer people consciously see the Latin influence in language and fewer kids study either Latin or Greek plus they only now are really delving deeply into the archeology of Arthur who knows what the future will bring - although so much of Roman and Greek History and their stories are kept alive I don't see that influence dying - wasn't it the soldiers returning from the Iraq war who have been gobbling up the Odyssey
Well we start the winter weeks with Mabinogion on the 6th - ha just realized the 12 day of Christmas - I'm ready - the break was just perfect - and evidently we move away from the Arthur stories - have not read ahead to even know what is coming.
Now after all this on language, the history of education and the church I'll forgive ::) the lack of importance given to the code of behavior by Knights not being as important as knowing the code of behavior and history of the Romans and Greeks... :D - History is fun - all of a sudden time does not seem like eons ago especially given we still react similar to the ancients during a crisis and their wisdom still hold - I am enjoying and struck by how 'right on' is Marcus Aurelia's Meditations
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llandaff_Cathedral
Nice history of this ancient site and subsequent buildings
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Llandaff_cathedral_interior.jpg/520px-Llandaff_cathedral_interior.jpg)
Tombs in Llandaff Cathedral include:
Dubricius, 6th-century Briton Saint who evangelised Ergyng (now Archenfield) and much of South-East Wales;
his body was transferred to Llandaff Cathedral in 1120.
Teilo, 6th-century Welsh clergyman, church founder and Saint
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(http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/images/cadwaladr.jpg)
King Cadwaladr Fendigaid in Stained Glass at
Llangadwaladr Church
St. Cadwaladr Fendigaid, King of Gwynedd
(c.633-682)
(Latin: Catuvelladurus; English: Cadwallader)
Cadwaladr the Blessed was the son of King Cadwallon of Gwynedd and his wife, Alcfrith, sister of King Penda of Mercia.
He was only about a year old when his father died in AD 634. Civil War ensued and the baby's followers were forced to flee the kingdom with him, as the throne was seized by one Cadfael ap Cynfeddw, of unknown origin. Tradition says he was ill for much of his de jure reign, during which time the Civil War in Gwynedd continued on and off. This was not helped by a widespread famine, followed by a plague, that swept through the country at the same time. It is possible that Cadwaladr died of this plague in AD 664, although this was probably his nemesis, King Cadfael.
A tradition, recorded by Geoffrey of Monmouth, has him fleeing to Brittany, where he accepted the hospitality of King Alain Hir (the Tall). Many years later (presumably after Cadfael's death), Cadwaladr sent his son, Ifwr, back to Britain to secure the Royal throne.
We might assume that the King followed him soon afterward for he is said to have been the last monarch to have any semblance of authority over the other Celtic Kings of Britain. He was certainly a great patron of the Gwynedd church, particularly of Clynnog Fawr Abbey. In old age, he may have even become a monk at the Royal monastery of Eglwys Ael (Llangadwaladr) on Ynys Mon (Anglesey). Cadwaladr died while on a pilgrimage to Rome on 12th November AD 682.
His body was brought back to Wales and buried in his church at Eglwys Ael which became named after him, as Llangadwaladr. He was succeeded in the throne of Gwynedd by his son, Idwal Iwrch, but he may have had two other children, Gwrgan and Hywel. Ifwr may well be mythical - or a misspelling of Idwal.
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Good Morning, Barb, et.al.
Llandafaff Cathedral sounded very familiar, so off I went to my shelf of British history books. Sure enough, there was the booklet I brought back with me from my visit to Wales in 1969. Looking through the booklet, I can't say that I recall being there. I must have been otherwise I would not have bought it. The booklet did not have a picture of Dubricius' tomb but did show a picture of Tielo's tomb.
I must say that all these 'and' sentence beginnings in these stories kind of drives me nuts. However, I can see where, around a campfire, the oral storyteller would likely continue the stories with 'and' especially after an interruption or pause in the narrative.
Not much here about Aberffraw here, but important to the times we are reading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberffraw
This is interesting. https://www.sarahwoodbury.com/aberffraw-castle/ Sarah Woodbury is a novelist. She has a degree in anthropology and is the daughter of two historians. All of her novels are set in Wales, none of which I have read. One of her novels only just came to my attention several days ago while book browsing.
I remember the story of Branwen from somewhere else, but it wasn't nearly as extensive as this.
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Interesting how names continue in a culture - my daughter lives on the edge of the Appalachian mountains in Saluda NC - tiny town in the mountains - anyhow, we hear of the Scotch Irish having originally settled the area along with others from the British Isles but I never saw much culture in the area particular to anything other than flat out Appalachia - having lived in Kentucky all those years there was the familiarity - they did have some annual Scottish games nearby down the mountain but this story in Mabinogion gave me the clue I was missing - among Katha and friends of her boys there are at least 4 young women and an elder named Brawnwen and two of them spell it differently - I should listen for other names because that is where the culture must continue itself.
Until we started this I had not ever heard of the Triads - not only are they woven into everything but those elevated as early leaders are in threes - have not finished reading yet, started last night - I do notice a different tone and so far this story is much clearer to understand what is happening - maybe the translation was easier since it is about a time with recorded history.
I am having a difficult time imagining how you could brutalize horses as it is described - sheesh
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An amusing coincidence: I'm rereading some of Ellis Peters' Brother Cadfael mysteries. Cadfael, the detective, is a Benedictine monk living in the Shrewsbury monastery, in the twelfth century, starting in 1137. Peters wanted a genuine Welsh name for her character, but one rare enough not to have any associations. She found Cadfael, the baptismal name of Saint Cadoc, or Cadog, which he mostly never used, and which she says doesn't occur elsewhere in Welsh history.
So, Barb, you casually show her sloppiness by giving us the story of the blessed King Cadwaladr and his enemy, the usurper King Cadfael.
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I am finally getting around to reading "Branwen the Daughter of Llyr".
The notes clear up some of what I am reading. So, we still don't know for sure if Bendigeid of Llyr was real or not? He shows up in the Mabinogion and the Triads, which is a mish-mash of ancient folklore, tales and historical documents. So, which was he? It appears that he is venerated as a real person, though the Triad information does not correlate well with historical accounts (according to the notes) of Carraticus, who was a very real person.
I was going to put up some video of Harlech, but it appears that there is no evidence of previous structures on Harlech Mound before King Edward I built one. I did find out that one of the four round tour thingies was renamed Branwen, and there is a bird sanctuary nearby in honor of the crows in the story.
Wow! The computer just got knocked off line by a line-spike. I had to reboot, and here I am. Firefox remembered where I was. I didn't lose my post. How about that. Well, instead of messing around here I should get back to reading the story.
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I've also noticed a lot of shutting down in the past 2 weeks - wonder if it is built in signaling for the big change on the 14th - still setting up my new computer - some of what I email over takes hours of work to make it look on the page as it did on the old computer and how my research and thoughts were indented or highlighted in colors that guided me to like thoughts - getting worn out with this change and still not sure what we loose- if it is just that anything before Windows 10 is not longer serviced that is one thing but some make it sound like there will be no access to the internet unless you are running windows 10 or better. Between having lost the use of a couple of TVs a few years ago and now this I am sounding like a crotchety old lady complaining about change.
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Uh, Oh, Barb. What have I missed? What change? Not liking the sounds of this.
There is the cauldron again playing a role in the story. Wizardry showing up without a wizard. I am missing something. What is it with keeping the head so long? Did it work magic to keep everybody calm and peaceful? They all forgot the past but somehow did not forget the admonition not to open the door facing Cornwall. And why Cornwall? Does it have significance or did the tale teller just pick a direction? The notes on the Tuatha de Danann have me interested. Phoenician traders maybe? They certainly would have appeared magical to early inhabitants of Ireland. I am not at all familiar with early Irish archaeological evidence.
I certainly need to reacquaint myself with Caracticus (Caradawc) and Cassivelaunus (Caswallawn), who I met in my Latin Readings (especially Julius Caesar). Ostorius (Eurosswydd) was Publius Ostorius Scapula. He governed Roman Britain from 47AD until his death in 52AD. This gives us an anchor date, backward and forward, to explore possible other real life connections. It looks like there are more than a few.
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Back later and yes it appears this tale is a history lesson for us - I'm thinking the story tellers of old would be sharing the bits of who did the big things - like here in Texas we tell our kids all about Houston and Lamar and Travis and Bowie and Crockett - still popular first names and now that kids attend school the stories of these men are part of 6th grade history that is all Texas History - that is what I think this is all about - not just sharing the names but the deed written from the point of view of the culture.
Looking at an Anglo Saxon dictionary last night - forgot their word but the definition was blood icicle - which was the word used to describe blood dripping from a sword - don't think of those little bits of reality that would go with hand to hand battle using swords before guns. Puts the maiming of horses in a different perspective.
back later...
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This tale is a little shorter than I expected, but it looks like we will get a kind of continuation in the next two tales.
Regarding the horses, I wonder if there isn't something more to it than Branwen being married with out Evnissyen's consent. Well trained horses, especially warhorses, were valuable. I'd say the poor horses were a target of opportunity. A knight who loses his horse in war is at a severe disadvantage, therefore they were often targeted. It was expensive to train and equip a horse for war, so there was also a monetary loss as well.
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Last night, I found a documentary on how "the Celtic nations received the Gospel of Christ during the Dark Ages" across Britain and Ireland, called Celtic Pilgrimage, which I hope to watch later on today. ]
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Wow talk about like minds - in a way - reading yesterday The Benedict Option - I thought it was going into the Benedictine rule but so far it is explaining not only the difference in culture through the ages since Rome and how the fall of Rome affected not only the city but people in general and then it goes on to explain the viewpoint that people had about themselves in relationship to God through the ages - it appears those who committed to paper the Arthur stories were at the end of the Middle ages - it was during the Middle Ages that peoples view changed from everything and everyone being inhabited by God to a belief that God was an outside force that affected everything and everyone. Again, the author, Rod Dreher goes into how Christianity was just about lost in Rome after Rome fell - that Constantine changed the western world by changing Rome to a Christian Empire which created the divide from East to West since the East kept the original head and center for Christianity in Constantinople.
I had no idea the vast loss in Rome's population during the late 5th century on into the 6th century - everything really did crumble.
However, the West becoming Christian did not affect what we today see as brutality just as it did not lesson war as the solution for whatever ails the leadership - the difference is for instance, the Knights - they take an oath under God but that said a lot since the oaths that people took for many of their positions and even occupations now had agreed upon rules of behavior.
Out of this I am wondering if maybe we are over looking an important message or component of these tales - I think it will be hard as casual readers rather than scholars to pickup the differences because we live after several more changes as man sees itself as separate, because of science that made a huge change 200 years ago, and as a result many are eliminating the idea that God has anything to do with their life and therefore, as independent individuals we conquer lands, space, micro living creatures etc. Where as those who are still living in the mindset before the French Revelation see God as the center of their lives and for the support that a people that see themselves in relation to God, they group seeking their values from a church denomination as a center or a religion as their center - much as Muslims still are a tribal society who are only now learning they have an individual voice and can vote as an individual as opposed to even as recent as 20 years ago would vote in whatever way the leader voted or the husband voted - etc. and when you look at it, that is how many church going Christians vote.
The change before the Fr. Revolution was Luther who opened thinking that Christians are still reeling from - one thing to rebel against the sins of the Roman Catholic Church but then what to replace it with - and so we have many versions of Christianity with group differences as to how to seek God or live in a Godly way.
And so back to our story - it would be difficult for us who even if we are church going Christians to read these stories with the mindset of the times that appears to be that every human is an outgrowth so to speak an appendage of God - that God dwells in every molecule of man and all that surrounds him therefore anything from a rainstorm to a summer breeze is by the will of God - I am wondering if we are supposed to pick up the difference in behavior within these stories, as the difference between those who became or were Christian as opposed to those who are still living with the laws, I guess of the Druids - whatever was the group think before Christianity.
For sure since we now know Arthur was a Roman Soldier and several times we are reminded he is Christian if some of the conflicts we read about were showing the difference between the Knight who was Christian and the opponent, like dwarfs and giants etc as non-Christian and this is how they act, how they use magic and ultimately how they lose.
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Wow, that's pretty deep, Barb. For some reason I feel kind of baffled by the story, even though on the face of it it's straightforward. I need to read it again more carefully.
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Interesting - two stories about a horses in the Arthur stories - and here I thought we were no longer in the Arthur stories but using this link it appears Branwen, Daughter of Llyr is a shadow story for Trystan and Essyllt - the second is the short synopsis of the story of Branwen - and then the essay shows the connections. Found the site when looking up the word Talebolion which appears to mean a pedigree of horses since the time of the Tudors. Another definition, Talebolion on Anglesey, a place-name supposedly meaning “Payment of horses”
http://secretsavalon.blogspot.com/2016/07/the-mysteries-of-avalon-chapter-eight.html
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http://www.inherownwords.com/rhiannon2.htm
"Rhiannon is the story of a lady that is from another world ~ called the Bright world ~ and she leaves her kingdom to become the wife of a king ~ a mortal king ~ but goddesses really can't marry mortal kings, if they do they lose their powers ~ their magic powers. And they don't lose the knowledge of them they just ~ they know everything that's going to happen they just can't do anything about it. Which is a much more difficult way to live than not having magic powers is to not be able to use them and know exactly what's coming and to not be able to tell anybody. So she comes down and does her whole trip, and it's just a whole story ~ it's a wonderful story.
And she has these birds that sing and that is the legend of the song of the birds of Rhiannon. And they sing this song that is uh, said takes away pain and suffering and if you hear the song you just sort of blank out and go away and then when you wake up everthing's all right. And it is a wonderful, wonderful story ~ there seems to be a lot of need for the story of Rhiannon around lately, because if people are sad or have lost anybody or something the story really makes a lot of sense."
here it is in song
http://branawen.blogspot.com/2011/08/adar-rhiannon-birds-of-rhiannon.html
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The Saga of Rhíannon
https://www.rhiannon.ie/saga.htm
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The Irish origin of Cunedda should not be a surprise to us, as there is the well-documented case of the Welsh genealogy of the royal house of Dyfed, which was altered to hide the fact that Dyfed was founded by the Irish Deisi. We know this because we have the corresponding Irish genealogy from a saga which tells of the expulsion of the Deisi from Ireland and their settlement in Dyfed. As is true of Cunedda's pedigree, in the Welsh Dyfed pedigree we find Roman names substituted for Irish names. There were other Irish-founded kingdoms in Wales as well, e.g. Brycheiniog.
http://secretsavalon.blogspot.com/2017/05/
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this story to me is listing all the ancient names - some myth and others historical - to me the most profound story within this story is the three birds and the story of Rhíannon that ties it all together.
Do not know how or where but I am remembering years ago, maybe as a teen reading about the 200 warriors hiding in the sacks and their life being taken. The story has to be included in other literature because I'm almost sure this was way before I even knew about the Irish, Scandinavian much less Welsh Sagas
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Goodness this week flew by - here it is Monday the 13th and onward - have not read the chapter but will later today.
I am sure we could look up each of those named in last week's chapter - and I may still do that - but I am anxious to get on with this story - since this new section was supposed to be more Welsh than Arthur I want to know more about the early Welsh.
So far it appears you must be familiar with the Triads and it appears Irish myths and stories are entwined in the Welsh history, myths and stories. I've always wanted to get into the ancient Irish stories and myths but that would be herculean from the little reading I have done over the years - not at all like grabbing the Arthur stories that I think we researched enough to get a good handle on...
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I barely got started reading it, Barb, before getting interrupted. Since Narberth Castle is mentioned, here are some great pictures of the current ruins. This pile of ruins was built around 1257AD. http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/808.html
Previously, there was a mottle and bailey (or ringwork according to who you read) style castle/manor house nearby that was built and destroyed at least three times between the 10th and 13th centuries. Supposedly, it was used as by the Templars. Some believe that it was the original site of the castle at Narberth. This is what it may have looked like. http://www.templetonheritagegroup.org.uk/sentencecastle.html
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Nightbringer has a short version of the story that is easy to read - I found reading it first made Lady Guest's translation easier to understand.
https://www.nightbringer.se/a_manawydan.html
looks like looking into each of the names from last weeks story may not be an extra but a necessity to follow what is happening
Still do not get the point of any of this - it all sounds like a magical fairytale but even a fairytale has a point - this one almost sounds like a creation story - what do you think? Although I guess a re-creation since it was all their and magic has it disappear only to appear later. It does I guess give us the names of the original dynasties for both Ireland and Wales.
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Barb, here is another book about might have something to say about the time period(s) we are encountering. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/61161 The Saxons in England, Volume 1 (of 2) by John Mitchell Kemble in which the first Chapter is titled "Saxon and Welsh Traditions."
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Cruising around YouTube this morning I found this doc on King Arthur's Britain which concentrates on the archeological evidence, including the old texts. At least that is how it starts out. I got interrupted so have to get back to it later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy-sTJAid3I I think this is a series.
Timeline also has one which is the first of three https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK5WrCseFYI I may have seen some of this one.
Short video on the spread of the Celtic languages. I like the maps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKG8_dB_yAA
Now back to my reading, I hope. I've already been interrupted three times today, and my sister may stop by later this afternoon.
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Just watched the first link in its entirety - Wow so much of that film matched other readings I've been doing - I can see that today we do not take a story on faith which is how the Arthur story was passed on till the last 200 years when empirical evidence replaces faith - learning how faith was the glue till Sir Francis Becon and Descartes changed all that -
I can see how faith was not specific but rather taking the ordinary for granted and then building on the special event or person a story that shows their 'magic' if you will or outsized virtue - Whereas, today we want truth which is really saying, since we are no longer privileged to know or understand what was ordinary a couple of thousand years ago we want to pull apart the story and see what is fact and what is outsized and all our research and tech equipment will allow us to do jut that.
I did like the last bit where he explains we need both - he suggests that the story and history is as important as the empirical evidence - I'm thinking two fold in that the evidence has less meaning without the story and history -
And then the big one for me is, I've been reading about trade and banks - this film shows that a trading center comes about when you have something of value to trade. That thought for me has opened a new way of looking at us as individuals - If wealth is knowledge then whomever has the knowledge to obtain or realize a use for something and then has a surplus of that something - even if intellectual property - they have more value than someone whose only imagination is to sell their physical self as in labor - oh I could go on and on - and yes, the obvious but for me to break it down and really see, I can now appreciate why some have better paying jobs or some can use their knowledge to tap into using something that others do not see its potential value.
A story I read only last week, how one man sees value in the discarded items from the many who are downsizing - he was a creator of the wonder windows in department stores during the Christmas season and now that he is retired he creates these wonder sets for sale. Evidently, as the windows were built so is he building sets using items thrown away and now instead of being hired for his imagination and skill interpreting that imagination he is considered an artist and is making 4 times the income he did all those years when he sold his imagination and skill to further industry through marketing.
It appears, from the film this spot on the cliffs of Cornwall attracted trade from all over the Mediterranean because they had something valuable that others wanted - tin - and so that says to me when someone is selling a specialized bit of knowledge they too would be valued and receive more 'good's' income and if they have as surplus they can further trade for more 'good's' income. I finally really get it... I know we all know this but for me this is I guess empirical evidence :)
I can also see why I've been reading for years and years the history of the church that is not always so wonderful - many consider what i have been doing as anti-religion and yet, I can pick out the line of theology that keeps my faith - nothing is pure and nothing is perfect no matter how much church leadership would like you to accept but, that does not mean, as the old saying goes you throw the baby out with the bath water and I found an awful lot of dirty bathwater. And so with that thinking I'm comfortable enjoying and finding valor and wonderment in the Arthur stories even if evidence shows they are not spot on matching the story with scientific research for facts and truth.
Ha ha all that to say, yep reading the Arthur stories is not only enjoyable as if a fairytale but insightful and even educational as I see human nature reliving today what is told in these stories.
Thanks frybabe - that was a turning point film
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Started the second link and got 10 minutes into the first of the three and had to stop - I'll never get anything done and I need to fix lunch plus in his own way he is repeating what the first link youtube had to say... yep there is more to the dark ages than what our history books have been telling us...
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Yeah, I got that too, Barb. I just like to see the countryside and the ruins.
This was another short tale. Don't know what the point of the story was either, but it did remind me of the phrase, "every action has a reaction". Certainly can't be a moral tale for clemency; the guy who cast the spell in the first place didn't show any did he. Maybe don't torment/bully/pick on others lest you find yourself at the receiving end one day? I didn't see any apologies in that tale either, but a negotiation to set the value of the trade. Personal though it is it is still a trade negotiation, all my stuff back and no spells in trade for your mouse daughter. And I see you posted something along those lines below, too.
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Oh, and I just thought of the book I read years ago that explains some of the trade along the Cornish and Welsh coasts. It is The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek by Barry Cunliffe. Cunliffe is an archaeologist and academic. Since 2007 he is Emeritus Professor from Oxford University. One of his more famous excavations is that of Fishbourne Palace at Chichester. While he began with an interest in Roman Britain, he later became interested in Iron Age Britain and the Celts.
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I've been reading Adrian Goldsworthy's Vindolanda. It occurred to me, finally, that the main character in the story is Welsh. Right now, though, he is part of a delegation to a powerful clan/tribal leader who is able to gather and command a confederation of clans, including those from overseas. It reminded me that there are more than a few who believe that King Arthur was seated in Scotland. The time period for this tale is wrong for King Arthur, though, but maybe not for his dad or granddad.
So now we have another tale of wizardry. I am into it just a little ways. What a strange beginning. Math cannot exist without his feet being on a maiden's lap? How odd. I am not sure what is going on with all the job switching, and once again pigs feature in the story. They must really, really like pigs.
Ending the story, I found this about the Llech Gronw and the ending of Blodeuwedd https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/12/country-diary-llech-ronw-mabinogion-ffestiniog
Now all I have to do is read the middle of the tale.
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Looky here what I found Barb, a Glossary of Welsh Mythology from the Theosophical Society, Cardiff Lodge. http://theosophywales.org/theosophy206/Glossarywelshmythology.htm It explains all those weird names we come across.
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Wow great find frybabe - the day got away from me - long email exchange with my sister and then my daughter and my daughter-in-law called - I guess everyone was off today for MLK celebration and so they all called - took my awhile to figure out how come they were calling during the day...
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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | January 06.......Branwen the Daughter of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab22.htm)
January 13.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab24.htm)
January 20.......Math the Son of Mathonwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab26.htm)
January 27.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab28.htm)
February 03.....The Story of Lludd and Llevelys (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab30.htm)
February 10.....Taliesin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab32.htm)
|
Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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still not sure what the foot holder is - when I look it up they talk about the public stock with wooden pillars holding them up and holes for the feet - then there is a bunch of links to the medieval story of checking Mary after the birth of Christ and their hands wither trying to check and a lily showing her purity is part of the story - I get the inference that Mary's feet are put in a foot holder while they check out her vagina - but except to repeat this section of the story nothing specific about the foot holder mentioned
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Well my Cambridge illustrated History of the Middle Ages arrived today... and I am knocked over for a loop - the description they have of what happened between 350 and 460 is exactly the issues we have going on in the world today only the opposite is in power - the migration and all the differences in how the 'other' ate, or what they ate, how they smelled, if they grew crops or hunted and how they did either and and and... yet, there are some who think it is grand that these groups like the Goths etc. are crossing the Rhine and criss crossing the Mediterranean with less and less talk of holding the frontier and everyone feeling overwhelmed turning to the Government to solve this massive change and then blaming the government when they are no better at handling all this then the individuals involved -
In Rome some flee - some hide and some band together is small groups - the only ones delighted with all this are the Christians. It is a time of creating nation states versus an Empire whose goal was to have everyone from Spain and the British Isles to Turkey and beyond share the same thinking, culture, food, way of life as one unified area.
And so, now I see as we read of Arthur, Welsh Saints, Irish leaders we are really looking closely at one of many barbarian groups - The preface asks the question if the people at the time were aware of the transition - The author says, those in Rome writing were the well to do who had a deep rooted sense of inertia and despondency so they dwell on the governmental machine and rail about injustice and abuses and bewail the uncertainty of their future - they toy with revolt - as they loose their grip the 'wheels of state' become progressively clogged and other authorities move in taking over land sections, Gaul, Britain, Spain etc. Later in the East the Slaves, Berbers and Arabs section off their domains.
During this time there are severe droughts in the Mediterranean areas that prompt border wars - and a huge loss of life that helped to continue the emptying of Rome. We do not hear of this being a problem as we read how the Welsh, Irish, parts of England and Brittany are grouping during this time.
I see two things - the stories we are reading were only committed to paper at minimum 4 centuries after the events and during the intervening years they were told word of mouth therefore, not the work of the well to do - The stories may have been about the well to do but they were not the ones recording these happenings. The well to do were pushing for their territory and independence rather than simply hanging on to an impossible dream - Second, those who committed these stories to paper had a broad stroke of the pen without the intimate knowledge of the foibles and differences of everyday food, dress, mannerisms between the groups or even their inner expectations and fears as compared to what those writing in Rome recorded.
As to to the book - sorta disappointed - after looking over the index and skipping to see the sections, it appears the entire thrust is from the point of view of the downfall of Rome and the Christian take over - all thought and roads lead back to Rome with a huge section talking about the break up of the East with each area having its own religious identity as well as, tribal or national identity. It appears this entire time in history for 350 to 950 is the shake up and establishment of nation states that started with groups like the Celts, Saxons and Goths and the land they occupy. What I was hoping for was a more detailed and intimate look at each of these cultures as they took on the identity of a nation state.
Where as we appear to be caught up in the drama between people and their belief in magic that is entwined in the culture and we are not paying that close attention the formation of land boundaries - but then that may not have been as important - the land seems to follow boundaries made by the sea, rivers, and mountains - isolated land areas would have its own insular culture and myths - these would be the barbarians as compared to the Romans and the Church - so far we have not read anything that featured the Church - with that in mind these stories are really very colloquial in the scheme of the history of the Middle Ages. I wonder if that is how it would be to read about say Georgia after the break up of the Soviet Union when the center of USSR was Moscow.
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Gwynedd was an independent kingdom from the end of the Roman period until the 13th century - The ancient Welsh cantref of Arllechwedd in north-west Wales was part of the kingdom of Gwynedd for much of its history until it was included in the new county.
The Kingdom of Ceredigion was one of several Welsh kingdoms that emerged in 5th-century post-Roman Britain. Cardigan Bay to the west and the surrounding hilly geography made it difficult for foreign invaders to conquer. Its area corresponded roughly to that of the county of Ceredigion. Ceredigion transparently means "the people of Ceredig."
Nennius, a 9th-century Welsh chronicler, traces Ceredigion's foundation to Ceredig, son of Cunedda. According to Nennius, Cunedda migrated with his sons and followers from the Hen Ogledd (southern Scotland) in the 5th century.
Appears that Powys is adjacent to Gwynedd
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Medieval_Wales.JPG/800px-Medieval_Wales.JPG)
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Wow this a fabulous - The Story of Wales starting with the red lady - remains from 30,000 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKYqjempvc&feature=youtu.be
Looks like this is the first of 5 hour long films
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Cantrevs is an ancient Welsh word meaning 100 and so "Pryderi is assembling one-and-twenty Cantrevs to pursue after you" would be 2100.
Maenors A Welsh territorial and administrative unit consisting of a number of townships.
Nantcall Well - Ffynnon Nantcall is at the head of the parish of Clynnog Fawr. According to Myrddin Fardd, the water was used to cure blues and for digestion. Nantcall, or Nantcyll, is part of the name of four farms to the south of the village of Pant-glas
Mae Ffynnon Nantcall ym mhen uchaf plwyf Clynnog Fawr. Yn ôl Myrddin Fardd, fe ddefnyddid y dŵr i wella'r felan ac at gamdreuliad.
Pryderi is buried "at Maen Tyriawc, above Y Felenrhyd" after being killed by Gwydion in a battle at Y Felenrhyd on the banks of the River Dwyryd about a mile from the town. Felenrhyd is just downstream, and the stone that marks his grave stands in the churchyard of Maentwrog, within the Snowdonia National Park, on the Roman road Sarn Helen. Maentwrog, 'Maen Twrog' implies 'Twrog's stone' (Welsh maen = stone) - Twrog, (a giant) being the Celtic St Twrog. The stone stands beside the church in Maentwrog. The stone marks St Twrog's grave. The boulder supposedly hurled by the giant is also the one said to mark Pryderi's grave.
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I wrote a post about The Novel and it has disappeared from the Library! Where did it go?
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We will be discussing a tale about the Emperor Maximus this week. Ginny and I were just chatting about Hadrian's Wall where Maximus had helped to put down a conspiracy/rebellion at one of the garrisons. Lady Guest appears to be incorrect in asserting in her notes that Maximus was low-born. Here is his father's genealogy chart: https://gw.geneanet.org/zardoz?lang=en&n=iulii&oc=0&p=flavius+julius+eucherius Notice there is some Welsh in the family. Also, one of his daughters, Flavia, was the first wife of Vortigern (Gwerthrynion) who we have met elsewhere.
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I am impressed frybabe that you know the names of these folks well enough to see connections to Roman history - its beginning to add up for me why the Roman times history is less filled with giants, dwarfs and other magic - most of anything to do with Rome was early on committed to paper where as the time of Arthur followed by the time of the Welsh saints the stories were passed orally for several hundred year - seems like in order to thrill a listening audience stories became enlarged with not just Celtic magic but all sorts of exaggerations.
Right off the bat in the first sentence there was a word used that brought a smile to my face since as archaic as it is I knew it from an old folk song about a man, who is at night a man and by day a silkie upon the sea - he has a son and he and his son are swimming together when his son is shot - all very sad and the music is also very mournful however, the man is described as Comely, meaning good looking and so our Maxen Wledig is good looking or handsome.
I'm thinking there will be lots of mis-information by Lady Guest since in the last 30 years so much has been uncovered that is turning the history of the early days of the British Isles and even Brittany on its head. It is so easy to want to start reading about another aspect of this historical time but I am not going to dig into one more culture however, did we not hear that there was probably no invasion by these northern European tribes - rather they were trading and at first settled on the coast and gradually mixed and intermarried - do not remember the particulars on the Saxons but it seems to me they too were trading rather than whole sale conquering which was the belief back in the time Lady Guest put this all together. I'm so glad frybabe you are steeped in Roman history to help us sort out some of this now dated-information and also tie in the Roman times.
Since I've been reading and now seeing on these videos the importance of trade I wonder if that had something to do with the demise of Rome - there were new trade items that brought about new technology and products like tin that was added to iron and Rome did not have the latest raw material for new technology and so their trade may have not been able to keep Rome or Romans afloat. There are many lists of why Rome fell but I wonder now how much trade was a cause.
That first film on Welsh History really helped me put together the time frame for these various happenings - not exactly events since they were Roman times and Arthur's time and the time of the Saints.
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As expected, a lot of information about Macsen Wledig's life in Britain is unknown or uncorroborated except for the Welsh legends. He did indeed take a large fleet of forces to Britain, married a Welsh woman, known as St. Elen, and took her with him when he went back to France on campaign and to establish his seat of power. The last evidence of Roman troops in Wales corresponds to when he pulled his troops out to campaign on the continent. There is also some archaeological evidence of a large British military settlement in Brittany.
I have no idea what city and castle is represented by the fairy-tale description in the story. Also, which river or rivers is the tale describing? I got a little confused about whether that was before or after he sailed, so I will have to re-read that part. I wonder where he landed when he crossed the channel to Britain. I might assume the Thames. I also wonder where his administrative center as overall commander of the military in Britain was situated.
This article from Ancient Origins claims he was the inspiration for King Arthur. https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/meet-magnus-maximus-roman-usurper-turned-welsh-hero-who-inspired-king-arthur-020932 Macsen Wledig's lineage appears to trace back to Constantine I, although there are some that disagree. It is possible that he used that lineage, with the encouragement of his troops, to legitimize his usurpation. https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/BritishMagnusMaximus.htm
Elen, also known as Saint Helen of Caernarfon although she was never formally cannonized, is credited with bringing the Celtic form of monasticism to Wales from Gaul. She is also known as the patron saint of British road builders and the protectress of travelers for her efforts to establish well built roads for troops and travelers.
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This tale was very short. Yesterday's afterthought was that I just read a work of historical fantasy fiction. Real life people and actions wrapped up in a fantasy dream.
Okay, I think I have the rivers worked out. He was hunting on the Italy side of the Alps, probably along the Po River. In his dream, he crossed the Alps and likely followed the Rhine to the English Channel where he hopped on the boat. He then traveled across England to the offshore island of Anglesey where he met his wife to be.
I was surprised to see Cordovan leather mentioned in these tales. The earliest known making of Cordovan is in the 7th century at Cordoba, Spain, way after the time of these tales. Real Cordovan is/was made from the a small portion of the hide of a horse's rump. The process is lengthy and difficult which explains the cost. It does not take dye well which explains the very limited color, but it is very long lasting.
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this dream story even felt more like fantasy then reality - reminded me of a bedtime story - the entire time I was reading it reminded me of, in this part of the country we tell kids about Pecos Bill, who among the many stories rides a tornado across the Rocky Mountains to California and when he had squeezed all the rain water out of the tornado he lands so hard he created Death Valley. He too is after the girl of his dreams. She rides a giant catfish down the Rio Grande.
For sure a man's fantasy - strength, cunning, sexual prowess and conquering the known world, successfully fighting a worthy advisory - I bet we could match story after story down through the ages to this man's fantasy formula. ::)
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I remember a cartoon about Pecos Bill from my kiddie-hood, but I cannot remember a single story. Wasn't there a song about him too?
Aren't you sorry you mentioned it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-izs5Wi4TUQ I am not sure this is the version I saw, but the story sure looks familiar, especially the jealous horse.
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It's one of those legends like Paul Bunyan which I do not know that story except by name and something about a tree or forest anyhow, Pecos Bill has as many tales as anyone decides to chew over however, there are a couple of main points -
He was one of 18 kids that when the covered wagon traveled from East Texas going west and went over a rock he fell out and was raised by the coyotes - several versions how he realized he was a man including one about a cowboy lost on his horse that becomes widow-maker - another version during a drought the horse, almost dead is found in west Texas - Pecos Bill lassos not only a tornado but a bunch of rustlers trying to take some longhorns and he uses them as cowhands to create the largest ranch that takes in all of New Mexico -
And the wife, the gal riding the giant catfish has a wedding dress with a bustle made of fencing wire before there was barbwire and a stay gets loose so she falls and bounces each time the story teller uses another reference to how high and when Pecos Bill tried to rescue her the horse steps on the rope so it cannot reach her - some have her going to the moon and Pecos Bill howls at the moon like the coyotes and other versions have the rope snagging her dress taking Bill with her and they both end up on the moon raising a family and thunder is the kids fighting and brawling among themselves.
The Tornado bit also has different versions but essentially he crosses the southwest and the rocky mountains to California - some have him rolling a cigarette and grabbing a bolt of lightening to light it - some have the tornado starting in Missouri - some say the tornado leaves rain across the southwest and others have the tornado pickup up water by draining the Red River and then filling it back up causing a massive flood across the entire state that creates the Gulf of Mexico
Roy Rogers had a record out with part of the story in song- again the legend has many versions and so who knows who and how many have turned it into a video or movie or record or book or or or - here it is one of those stories with the kids are ruching in their chair waiting at the doctor's office or such and usually it is some old guy who gets their attention with a version of the story.
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This week we again visit the battles between the Red and the White dragon. This story tells us how the dragons got to be buried to stop the second plague (the horrid screaming). So King Lludd buried them, and later, Vortigern reawakened them thus reigniting the battle in which the Red Dragon finally expels the White Dragon. http://www.ancientpages.com/2019/05/21/magical-dinas-emrys-battle-of-the-dragons-and-merlins-hidden-treasure/
The other two I need to research a little more. The first sounded to me more like some kind of real plague rather than a group of people which was killed of by a medical concoction. I found little about the Coranians on my initial search. Wikipedia seems to have the best explanation so far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coraniaid I don't know what to make of the third plague. It could be a straight up story of thievery.
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Lady Guest writes Cassibelaunus where as all over the internet the preferred spelling is Cassivellaurus.
Link with a photo of the bust of Cassibelaunus - looks like he was a Celtic king.
http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/celts_25.html
This link was the first read where I really felt and understood the world before the areas of the world were separated into nations as we know them to be now and where tribes rather than those with national identity populated and ruled. Now the stories of the Celts is fitting into my understanding that is more than wonderful intricate designs and simply an ancient influence.
Could not figure out who the Brut was - never heard of him as a scribe - finally found it..."Roman de Brut is a verse translation of Geoffrey of Monmouth’s Historia Regun Brittaniae into French by the poet Wace. Wace used both the standard and variant versions of the Historia. Wace called this work Geste des Bretons (‘Deeds of the Britons’), but scribes who copied it renamed it as the Roman de Brut, and that is the name it is generally known as today."
The link goes on to talk about Constantine's wife with information I had never heard about and her association with Catholic Britain. And his son also has roots in Britain - wow - had no idea Britain for Constantine was far more than simply another Roman conquest.
https://kingarthur.fandom.com/wiki/Roman_de_Brut
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tra la - frybabe the notes are really helpful - there is an alternate name for the Coranians - the Coritani and here is great link that comes up when I googled Coritani - The link goes into the difference that amounts to not knowing how to spell the Celtic language - these folks lived in the area from around 100BC to the 5th century AD
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/BritainCoritani.htm
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this link shows photos of kistvaens
https://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/kist_vaens.htm
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Great find, Barb. I watched an episode of Time Team where they dug up what they belief was a very early monastery on the Isle of Mull, just off the Scottish west coast. On the outside of the small chapel, they found an outdoor alter which looked boxy, kind of like the Kistvaens, but probably a bit better shaped. These old outdoor altars often contained relics, and or bones in them. Sure enough, they found enough bone to carbon date the site. This monastery would have been built by followers of St. Colomba. The site, up on a hill, looks towards the west where you can see Ireland.
Another Time Team episode was digging around in a church yard and surrounds at a site they believe to have been the site of an early Medieval building, possibly an administrative center or early King's residence. I wasn't paying strict attention to it at one point until I heard the names of the two murdered brothers with the long unpronounceable E names who were said to have been murdered somewhere around there. Well, now I remember running across their names, but can't remember if it was in one of the stories or in some of my research. I'll run across it again eventually.
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The legends and history of Beddgelert
http://www.snowdonia.org/
Capel Curig (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈkɑːpɛl ˈkɨːrɪɡ]; meaning "Curig's Chapel") is a village and community in the historic county of Caernarfonshire, currently administered as part of the unitary authority of Conwy County Borough, in Wales.
St Curig was a Celtic Roman Catholic bishop and saint of Wales during post Roman times. St Curig settled in Wales in the 7th century AD, during the reign of Maelgwn Gwynedd, for whom he was described as being a warrior. Lore describes Maelgwn becoming angered by his warrior's newfound religious beliefs, and in response Curig "caused Maelgwn and his men to go blind (and forced) three of Maelgwn's sons (...) to give Gurig (sic) land."
Upon landing at Aberystwyth, "he travelled inland, and rested upon the summit of a high mountain, where he settled a green, which still bears the name of Eisteddfa Gurig, or Curig's seat." Curig is thought to have migrated to Brittany at the end of his life and there are several churches there bearing his name. He is said to have died at Landerneau and been buried at Locquirec.
OK so we have Giraldus Cambrensis, mentioned by Lady Guest in the notes, who is an archdeacon and mediaeval Latin writer furthering some of the Red Dragon tale. Evidently a prolific writer of Welsh and Irish history and legend - here is a link to his tome on The Conquest of Ireland
http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/conquest_ireland.pdf
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Ah, Gerald of Wales (c.1146-c1223). https://www.britannica.com/biography/Giraldus-Cambrensis I knew about is attempts to become bishop of St. David's. I think I have his description of King Baldwin's journey through Wales, will have to check. I am hunting for the mentioned autobiography. Project Gutenberg does not seem to have it.
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I was rereading the bit about the dragons in the cauldron and realized I missed a key word or two. What IS it with the pigs. The dragons were turned into pigs before sinking down into the mead filled cauldron to slumber away until they were disturbed again. More than anything in these stories that got my attention is the number of times pigs featured in a story. Not cattle, not deer, but pigs. Well I guess they were a bit easier to keep in a farm or settlement enclosure and be ready at hand for a meal in the family or tribal pot. Deer you had to hunt. Finding, killing and lugging them home is ifsy. Cattle, need to range a large area to eat and cutting and storing fodder for any more than a few would be problematic. So only one or two would only be kept in the enclosure for milk and special occasion banquets and sacrifices. So, pigs would have a more regular source of meat and they eat just about anything. That would be my best guess anyway.
you know, the only stories of wizardry I really ever took to was J. R. R. Tolkien's Hobbit/Lord of the Rings series. I have yet to read The Silmarillion. While Merlin swirled around the King Arthur legends, he was never a focus for me.
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I'm wondering when they started to pen pigs - where these really pigs or wild pigs that get big and are dangerous
OK looked it up in the book of Traditional Symbols
"The pig is a fertility symbol, hence prosperity, but also gluttony, greed, lust, anger and unbridled passion and the unclean. The sow is associated with the Great Mother and has a lunar, sky and fertility symbolism.
Celtic: The sow goddess, ‘the Old White One’, Keridwen, is the Great Mother, also Phaea, ‘the Shining One’ as the moon and fertility. The pig is an attribute of Manannan who provided supernatural food through his pigs which were killed and eaten and returned daily.
Christian: Satan; gluttony; sensuality. Emblem of St Anthony Abbot who overcame the demon of gluttony.
Roman: Swine were sacrificed to Mars as god of agriculture, also to Tellus and Ceres at harvest time.
Googled Manannan and found this... Manannan or Manannan Mac Lir was a popular deity in Celtic mythology, belonging to an Irish mystical race known as the Tuatha De Danann. Manannan's title was 'Lord of the Sea'. Manannan also had a foster son named Lugh; the Great Warrior, on whom he bestowed his magical belongings.
https://www.transceltic.com/manx/manann-n-mac-lir-son-of-sea-celtic-sea-god-and-protector-of-mannin
Keridwen In Celtic Welsh mythology, Cerridwen is a powerful Underworld Goddess, and the keeper of the cauldron of knowledge, inspiration and rebirth. She rules the realms of death, fertility, regeneration, inspiration, magic, enchantment and knowledge. Cerridwen is a shape shifting Goddess, able to take on various forms.
She is the accidental creator of the great bard Taliesin: She gives birth to two children, a daughter called Crearwy who is the most favoured woman in the world, beautiful in every way, and a son Affaggdu who is born malformed and ugly and the dark aspect of her coupling.
To offset her son’s ill fortune, she sets about creating a potion of inspiration, which needs to be boiled for a year and a day. She sets Gwydion Bach (who is to become Taliesin) to the task of stirring the cauldron of wisdom for her, however three drops from the cauldron burn his fingers, and putting them to his mouth he is gifted with clear sight and knowledge.
Ceridwen is outraged at this and chases Taliesin through a variety of animal guises until she finally eats him as grain of wheat in the form of a hen. Nine months later she gives birth to a child, and not having the heart to kill it, sets it afloat on a river to be discovered by Elphin. The year and a day time-span in which the cauldron is set to boil, is a common motif in Welsh mythology.
Phaea A monstrous wild sow which ravaged the countryside of Crommyon in Greece, attacking animals and humans and causing great damage. It was slain by the hero Theseus. The Crommyonian sow, a giant, pesky pig liked to chow down on human flesh.
The sow, whom Plutarch calls Phaea, was bred by a grumpy old lady in the town of Crommyon. Pseudo-Apollodorus claims that the pig was named after her owner; both were called Phaea. Instead of reining in this hoggish monster, Phaea let her pig waddle free, gobbling up her neighbors and little kids like they were truffles. Diodorus Siculus quips that the hog “beast which excelled in both ferocity and size and was killing many human beings.” Needless to say, this didn’t go over well with the local authorities, but they didn’t approach Pig Phaea, lest they be chomped up, too.
An ancient Greek Vase showing Phaea slain by Theseus
https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/M15.3.html
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The Whole History of the Tuatha de Danann: Ireland’s Most Ancient Race
https://www.connollycove.com/tuatha-de-danann/
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Amazing how one clue leads to another - and in this case more clues from other resources. The separate pig stories include Lugh and the bard to come that we read next week, Taliesin
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Interesting info Barb. I am glad I kept scratching my head over the pigs.
I just did a quick search and found that pigs were thought to have been first domesticated in the Near East and spread to Europe about 8,500 years ago. DNA evidence indicates, however, that the Europeans may have separately domesticated their wild stock. The only thing I could find so far is that the original wild boar became extinct around the 13th century. It appears that pigs have been in Ireland at least as early as 7,300 BC and in England as early as 5,600 BC. Interesting abstract of a study using DNA samples to follow pig domestication in Europe. https://www.pnas.org/content/104/39/15276
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Yep that is what I meant - your query awakened my questions that research took over and sent us to further information that leads to yet more research that ends up linking us to make deeper, the story we are reading which prompts you to find even more information - amazing how that works - like a round robin
DNA is really opening up the past isn't it - interesting it was the near East - I would have suspected the Far East with as many meals using parts of pigs in Chinese food.
My thinking on wild pigs is because we are overun in Texas - they do so much damage - they breed 4 times a year and minimum produce 10 piglets at a time - in an hour they can root up and destroy a couple of acres of crops and now they are coming into the suburban areas destroy an entire yard in 20 minutes. Bounties are on them - night time shooting is helping - problem you have to have them cornered because the first shot is fired and they scatter - they are huge and run very very fast. If a rancher is using his harvester he sometimes chases 100 or more out of his hay or sorghum or corn field - they run so fast so that unless you knew and were ready for them there is no way to take them down or even stop them. And so I'm thinking when the story says pigs I bet they are more like the wild pigs here in Texas rather than the cute chubby pink animals we think of when we say pigs.
Cannot warm up today - heat on and I have it at 75 for heavens sake - we got snow last night - a few shady spots still show the light covering - last real snow we had was in 2004 - since we have had about 6 winters with this light partial covering that isn't really even an inch - although 2 years ago it was maybe 2 inches - enough that kids scarped together enough to make small snowmen - Another cold night tonight and then it starts to warm up - usually this time of year we are in the high 60s to mid 70s but this time this cold front was preceded by 5 days of temps in the 80s - even the heating system is confused - one day its the AC and the next heat. That is probably the problem, it takes awhile for the house to be warmed - there is no accumulation of warmth and the attic would have had that cold air blow in - Well off for a nap under the warm quilts...
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Oops! I missed a critical bit in this line. "...the original wild boar became extinct around the 13th century" It should read "the original wild boar became extinct in Britain around the 13th century." There are or were efforts to reintroduce the wild boar to England, but I glossed over that bit and didn't check on when or if successful. Yes, I've heard that wild pigs are quite ferocious. Didin't know Texas was plagued with them though/
I feel like we are doing our own version of James Burke's BBC series Connections. I loved that show.
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Yes I saw that and immediately what came to mind was the Christmas Carol about the Boar's Head - which suggests that the extinction must date that Carol or at last the memory of the Boar's head during the holiday must have been a tradition that was strong enough to last past the availability of roasting a Boar or its head.
I need to look next time in the deli - there is a line of processed meats and cheeses that are Boar's Head products - tasty compared to others - I wonder where their processing plant is located and how they came up with the name -
OK that was easy... "Boar’s Head Brand was established in the New York City area in 1905. Dissatisfied with the quality of hams available, our founder Frank Brunckhorst set out to craft products of uncompromising standards by using only the finest ingredients."
Looks like Germany still has wild boars... "No one knows how many boars live in Germany. In Berlin, boars tend to live in Wannsee, Spandau, Hakenfelde Tegel and Köpenick. But they can also be found in Brandenburg and across Germany, especially in the northern city of Rostock and also in the east, said Stillfried...
With their sturdy bodies, coarse hair and a menacing look at times, wild boars might not be the kind of animal you’d want to bump into during a relaxing forest walk. Yet they might be living closer to you than you think. That is if you live in some green German cities where wild boars can rummage around gardens, parks and even trundling down the street in huge groups."
Boar meat tastes like a cross between pork and lamb. Like most game, it's well suited for stews, ragouts and braises. It marries well with fruit, spirits and spices such as juniper and cloves. It provides more protein than beef or pork, and less cholesterol than chicken.
tra la - link to preparing the boar's head for Christmas with notes on the Carol
https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/Notes_On_Carols/The%20Boar%27s%20Head%20Carols/preparing_the_boars_head_whitehead-1893.htm
Thought the notes on the carol more interesting - did not remember the 2 day boar hunt in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/Notes_On_Carols/The%20Boar%27s%20Head%20Carols/boars_head_carols.htm
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And so the last of it - evidently this is the chapter often not included in the story of Wales...
They city of Penllyn still exists - the internet shows a 12 century Castle for sale -
Goddess name "Tegid Voel", Welsh, Goddess of water who was identified by the poet Taliesin.
Tegid Voel is also said to be the father of Arthur's extremely ugly warrior Morfran and grandfather of Myrddin. He was the husband of Ceridwen.
OK... Available for $10 is Gwion Oil – Gwion is the Servant of Ceridwen who drank three drops from her cauldron of All Knowledge. In anger she devoured him but gave birth to him nine months later as Taliesin the great bard. Also available for the same price is, Tegid Voel Oil – Ceridwen’s husband in Welsh mythology. Both can be purchased at Ceridwen's (online shopping although In 1993, Sharon sold Ceridwen’s, with all her 1500 original recipes, to Bob Isaac, owner of Merlin’s Books & Gifts in Independence, MO.) So there you go...
Llyn (lake) Tegid is four-miles long and over 40m deep, Llyn Tegid ('Bala Lake') is the largest lake in Wales, with its own mythical monster called Teggie. The 6th century ...
Appears there is a film about the monster - the link includes a few photos... http://teggie.co.uk/
Interesting link to the son Morvran ab Tegid... https://www.nightbringer.se/a_morfran.html
Creirwy (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈkrəirʊɨ]) is a figure in the Mabinogion and the Hanes Taliesin (the story of Taliesin's life), daughter of the enchantress Ceridwen and Tegid Foel ("Tacitus the Bald"). The Welsh Triads name her one of the three most beautiful maids of the Isle of Britain... she was described as ‘the loveliest nymph of the earth’. Her brothers were the ugly Afagddu and the handsome Morfran.
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A nice link to the Triads http://www.zendonaldson.com/twilight/camelot/triads/index.htm
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Ah included in the rather extensive link below... What then, is The Book of Pheryllt ?
Pheryllt is the Welsh spelling for Virgil; the Latin V in “Vergilius” goes to an initial F in Welsh, which in medieval manuscripts may be written Ph. You may also see ff, as in fferyllt. The Book of Pheryllt then, is a reference to The Book of Virgil .
https://www.digitalmedievalist.com/opinionated-celtic-faqs/pheryllt/
Included is a link the the Facebook page on Celtic Studies - not a bad page - https://www.facebook.com/digitalmedievalist/
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVvuM9opD8g
God Bless the Prince of Wales — Caerphilly Male Voice Choir
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Looks like you've been busy, Barb.
Here is my meager contribution so far. As I read Taliesin it dawned me that the Druids are very much a part of the story. Then I remembered The Time Team program I watched the other day when they were on Anglesey digging up some fields. The Druids, or at least the Irish/Welsh Druids were very much a Triad. The three classes of Druids were the Bards, the Vates (or Ovates), and the Druids proper. The Druids were not just a religion. The Bards were, of course, the poets/storytellers/mistrals, the Vates were the philosopher/soothsayers, and the Druids were the teachers and arbiters of disputes, and intercedents between people and the gods. So the Druids were the intelligentsia, the learned elite. Barry Cunliffe does a nice job of describing their roles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkvoKrCBJao I do not have Cunliffe's book, The Druids,(2010). Mine is the one Anne Ross wrote: Druids, Teachers of Immortality (1999).
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So glad you outlined some of who the Druids were - like all of us I've heard about them but know little about them - I've picked up they were the religious, spiritual, philosophical, story tellers before Christianity and there appears to have been another religion active in Wales before Christianity and after the time of the Druids. Christianity came with the Romans and since Rome did not penetrate deeply into Wales it was waht ever that other religion was that was the belief of those who fought to keep Rome out of most of Wales. Neither here not there, as I understand the Druids hold sway in all the British Isles - do you know, was Merlin a Druid? -
The other aspect of this read is how many characters are part of the Arthur story - never heard of most of them - sounds like there are several books all telling different aspects of the story and several of these books I never heard of - boy oh boy, is this read an eye opener - Frankly I'm glad this is the end of it because I anxious to get onto other reading but I am sure glad we chose to read the Mabinogion and now my thinking is to find out more about the Arthur stories.
Another aspect of these stories is to learn how many of the places mentioned are still active communities today - and the more links, the more I'm shocked to learn how far back to the 'history of man' the British Isles were contributing to that history, with archeological digs showing the evidence of these ancient times - it was easy to go with with the concept that the world was peopled and broken into areas of civilization based on the names we know today - Egypt, Cyprus, Greece etc. I knew so little about the culture of the huge lands ruled by the Saxons, Goths or Celts and others that were as important to our history as the Romans and Greeks.
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OK - found this in the book I have on my kindle - Celtic Mythology and the Religion of the Ancient Celts this answer part of my own questioning about the Druids - did not know they were part and parcel of the Celtic culture... here are some quotes...
"Julius Caesar's Notebooks About the Gallic War, written some time in the 50s or 40s BC. He discusses Celtic society and the Druids at length: “Throughout Gaul there are two classes of persons of definite account and dignity…Of the two classes above mentioned one consists of Druids, the other of knights. The former are concerned with divine worship, the due performance of sacrifices, public and private, and the interpretation of ritual questions: a great number of young men gather about them for the sake of instruction and hold them in great honour.
A great many young men come to the Druids for instruction, holding them in great respect. Indeed, the Druids are the judges on all controversies public and private. If any crime has been committed, if any murder done, if there are any questions concerning inheritance, or any controversy concerning boundaries, the Druids decide the case and determine punishments. If anyone ignores their decision, that person is banned from all sacrifices—an extremely harsh punishment among the Gauls. Those who are so condemned are considered detestable criminals. Everyone shuns them and will not speak with them, fearing some harm from contact with them, and they receive no justice nor honor for any worthy deed.
Among all the Druids there is one who is the supreme leader, holding highest authority over the rest. When the chief Druid dies, whoever is the most worthy succeeds him. If there are several of equal standing, a vote of all the Druids follows, though the leadership is sometimes contested even by armed force.
At a certain time of the year, all the Druids gather together at a consecrated spot in the territory of the Carnutes, whose land is held to be the center of all Gaul. Everyone gathers therefrom the whole land to present disputes and they obey the judgments and decrees of the Druids. It is said that the Druidic movement began in Britain and was then carried across to Gaul. Even today, those who wish to study their teachings most diligently usually travel to Britain.
The Druids are exempt from serving in combat and from paying war taxes, unlike all other Gauls. Tempted by such advantages, many young people willingly commit themselves to Druidic studies while others are sent by their parents.
It is said that in the schools of the Druids they learn a great number of verses, so many in fact that some students spend twenty years in training. It is not permitted to write down any of these sacred teachings, though other public and private transactions are often recorded in Greek letters. I believe they practice this oral tradition for two reasons: first, so that the common crowd does not gain access to their secrets and second, to improve the faculty of memory. Truly, writing does often weaken one's diligence in learning and reduces the ability to memorize.
The cardinal teaching of the Druids is that the soul does not perish, but after death passes from one body to another. Because of this teaching that death is only a transition, they are able to encourage fearlessness in battle. They have a great many other teachings as well which they hand down to the young concerning such things as the motion of the stars, the size of the cosmos and the earth, the order of the natural world, and the power of the immortal gods."
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Merlin seems to have been depicted as the last of the Druids and may have been a composite drawn from several people rather than just one person.
This is an interesting tale. Here we have the cross-over or blending of the old religion and the new. Taliesin's dad was Saint Henwg of Caerlleon upon Usk who, according to Taliesin (who may have been the only source), traveled to Rome to ask Constantine the Great to send Saints Germanus and Lupus to Britain to help Christianize the island.
Taliesin seems to have been born (around 534AD) n the area we know as Glamorgan (territory of Morgan). Here again is the sacred number three. Taliesin is part of the Baptismal Bard Triad along with Merddin Emrys and Merddin, son of Madoc Morvryn.
Here are two short articles that try to sort out the life of the real Taliesin from the mythical Taliesin.
https://biography.wales/article/s-TALI-ESI-0575
https://www.digitalmedievalist.com/opinionated-celtic-faqs/who-is-taliesin/
https://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/jce/taliesin1.html
I ran across a novel once that involved trying to authenticate a book supposedly written by an earlier author. These articles cast doubt whether or not some of the poems attributed to Taliesin were written by him. So, literary hoaxes were in evidence even back in the 11th-12th century.
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thanks frybabe - have to get to the links later - need to finish this story - slow going today - how do you find the time to do all the reading you do - I've been in awe at your prolific completion of book after book.
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I spend a lot of time on the computer, reading and tending to the cats whims. I rarely get bored reading.
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Englyn (pronounced [ˈɛŋ. lɪn]; plural englynion) is a traditional Welsh and Cornish short poem form. It uses quantitative metres, involving the counting of syllables, and rigid patterns of rhyme and half rhyme. Each line contains a repeating pattern of consonants and accent known as cynghanedd.
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| (https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion.jpg) | Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:
(https://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/mabinogion/Mabinogion2.jpg) (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm)
Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~
Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm) |
Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab05.htm)
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab10.htm)
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab13.htm)
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab16.htm)
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab18.htm)
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab20.htm) | January 06.......Branwen the Daughter of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab22.htm)
January 13.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab24.htm)
January 20.......Math the Son of Mathonwy (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab26.htm)
January 27.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab28.htm)
February 03.....The Story of Lludd and Llevelys (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab30.htm)
February 10.....Taliesin (https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab32.htm)
|
Discussion Leader: Barbara (augere@ix.netcom.com)
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Wow lots and lots of poetry...
My favorite is:
"I adore the Supreme, Lord of all animation,--
Him that supports the heavens, Ruler of every extreme,
Him that made the water good for all,
Him who has bestowed each gift, and blesses it;--
May abundance of mead be given Maelgwn of Anglesey, who supplies us,
From his foaming meadhorns, with the choicest pure liquor.
Since bees collect, and do not enjoy,
We have sparkling distilled mead, which is universally praised.
The multitude of creatures which the earth nourishes
God made for man, with a view to enrich him;--
Some are violent, some are mute, he enjoys them,
Some are wild, some are tame; the Lord makes them;--
Part of their produce becomes clothing;
For food and beverage till doom will they continue.
I entreat the Supreme, Sovereign of the region of peace,
To liberate Elphin from banishment,
The man who gave me wine, and ale, and mead,
With large princely steeds, of beautiful appearance;
May he yet give me; and at the end,
May God of his good will grant me, in honour,
A succession of numberless ages, in the retreat of tranquillity.
Elphin, knight of mead, late be thy dissolution!" |
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Found this ending to be anti-climactic but then maybe in its day reading poetry was a thrill that the writing of it was an elevated skill - since they were call Bards and their poems accompanied music I can see that probably was special among so many who could not read or write. I read some years ago many a king could not read or write and it was why they had assistant secretaries who also hired scribes.
Again, my big take away reading Mabinogion has been to bring awareness of the vast number of Arthur stories I knew nothing about and the larger than I realized number of authors who set down the Arthur stories before the years of the Renascence. I also have a new appreciation for the Romans and what they brought to these outpost locations and their continued influence on life. And last but not least to learn that the Druids were not only educators but were part of the Celtic lineage and culture - sure enough, looked it up and the Saxons had their own Gods that were similar to the Viking Gods.
We'll have Jane close us down and archive this discussion over the weekend...
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My copy of the tale does not lay out the poems as poems but as ordinary prose. It is much easier to read as layed out in the online text. My favorite is the first as it speaks to those (including me at one time or another) of depression and sorrow over situations we find ourselves in that are not as we would like. Being depressed leaves you in a state in which it is difficult to pull yourself out of at times. I have a friend who is currently showing signs of looking backward and bemoaning what could have been or what happened beyond her control that set her back.
"Fair Elphin, cease to lament!
Let no one be dissatisfied with his own,
To despair will bring no advantage.
No man sees what supports him;
The prayer of Cynllo will not be in vain;
God will not violate his promise.
Never in Gwyddno's weir
Was there such good luck as this night.
Fair Elphin, dry thy cheeks!
Being too sad will not avail.
Although thou thinkest thou hast no gain,
Too much grief will bring thee no good;
Nor doubt the miracles of the Almighty:
Although I am but little, I am highly gifted.
From seas, and from mountains,
And from the depths of rivers,
God brings wealth to the fortunate man.
Elphin of lively qualities,
Thy resolution is unmanly;
Thou must not be over sorrowful:
Better to trust in God than to forbode ill.
Weak and small as I am,
On the foaming beach of the ocean,
In the day of trouble I shall be
Of more service to thee than three hundred salmon.
Elphin of notable qualities,
Be not displeased at thy misfortune;
Although reclined thus weak in my bag,
There lies a virtue in my tongue.
While I continue thy protector
Thou hast not much to fear;
Remembering the names of the Trinity,
None shall be able to harm thee."
I was quite interested in Taliesin's description of himself, the timelessness of it. Did he think he was an immortal, or was he speaking metaphorically (is that the right word?) as if through the poems and tales of those bards who came before they still live in him? I found several editions of Taliesin's works in publication or online for viewing. Some are old manuscripts but others, like this one, are modern editions, like this one. https://www.amazon.com/Book-Taliesin-Heroism-Another-Britain/dp/0241381134
An interesting find - Frank Lloyd Wright named his estate in Wisconsin Taliesin. His grandparents were Welsh. I didn't know that until today.
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Depression ah so... one thing I can attest to is, it seems to go hand and glove with aging as we loose our self-esteem mostly, I see because we do not know how to value ourselves when we experience so many losses of what gave us our identity and the many losses of friends and place - many cities are changing faster than we can adjust and now, change is faster than as recently as 30 years ago. Ah so we can go on and on with our opinion on depression but it for sure is not fun.
I've gone through several bad bouts over the years - the first it took me a long time to find a way out - only when I re-read a book I was captivated with while in High School could I make a shift in my thinking. Since, more quickly do I turn to and re-read if not the entire book, bits and pieces - My copy is an old falling apart, much underlined, paperback copy purchased in the early 1950s translated by Allison Peers, Dark Night of the Soul and Ascent on Mount Carmel - truly understanding hope - which is only hope if it is in the unknown. Most of what we think of as hope is only wanting a return of what we remember as pleasing or comfortable. I prefer Allison Peers translation which has a poetic lilt and she uses language that allows me to go inside where as other translators are harsh and direct with none of the magic which I need to search and touch my inner being.
Yes, I think part of the depression is to find yourself experiencing life on terms set by another that often that person's behavior is beyond your imagination - talk about being caught up in a vortex - if the behavior affects others they all have their reaction that is often adding more pain and more new behavior that requires an adjustment often to and from family members - isolation and depression follow.
I've never been able to take the meds they subscribe - they all have affected my lungs or so incapacitate me that I am in bed 24/7 - no way will I repeat that experience and so I slug through like walking in a swamp of oozing mud.
I must say the book I read last week put into words so many of the feelings that trap me but I never had words to describe - sure I cried and cried while reading but it was like a cry stuck in my gut and heart for 30 and 50 and even 80 years. I cannot recommend the book enough - As Wide as the Sky by Jessica Pack.
The story is about how a mom handles and copes after her son is a mass murderer in a mall. Not only the confusion but how society reacts that affects her. There are a couple of chapters that show how those injured, or knew one of the dead, were handling the aftermath.
Dramatic and timely but easily translatable to any major loss in our lives - included is a sequence of events finding the owner of a ring she finds among her son's belongings as she is clearing his childhood things followed by tracking down the owner of the ring - after I read the book I realized the significance of a ring, almost like the Hobbit. Again, can't recommend it enough - I read it using Amazon since I have a kindle account - the description says it best that to me was typical of something out of the blue, that you can never imagine slamming into you like the planes hitting the NYC towers on 9/11
"Before the tragedy that unfolded in a South Dakota mall, Robbie was just like other people’s sons or daughters. Sometimes troubled, but sweet and full of goodness too." The book does not go into the actual tragedy at the mall but it centers on the mother, what she feels, how she copes, how she expresses her love. She has a daughter who early on moves out of state and the story goes into some of that relationship.
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Another thought I tore into - God brings wealth to the fortunate man. - so much today about investing with the concept that wealth and investing is about money - till I read how all money is, is a medium of exchange - For many of us we invested in a relationship or family or a community effort or in the arts or even in our job - that is when I also realized if we do not value our investment and acknowledge the wealth we received or gave, no one will do it for us. That to shame or scold for not having invested in financial instruments that would bring about financial wealth is short sighted - not worthy of those who are doing the shaming or scolding however, it allows them to be self-righteous.
Much of what we did invest our time, talent, knowledge, curiosity etc was in something that paid in the long term and the pay was in a contribution to an individual or society or the community - not the short term where we saw an annual increase or change in our financial well being. And so now I can give more value to my choices after understanding wealth is not just money and we invest ourselves in what we value that may not bring us more money and may not show a return on our investment for decades.
I also think that is the cause of depression for many when they expected a return that either did not come or the return was quickly replaced and they wonder, what was the value of their life's work.
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Tomorrow, Sunday the 16th, sometime later in the day, Jane will be closing down the discussion and archiving it... frybabe I was scrolling back because there are many links I never had a chance to get into... WELL... went to Gutenberg - hardly ever use their site that each year is a treasure trove - in the box on top had put in Arthurian - Do you know there are pages, at least 3 pages with 25 books to a page about Arthur!!!
Found this one, Stories from Le Morte D'Arthur and the Mabinogion and started to read a bit... still learning... this could become a permanent hobby just reading and researching all the information on Arthur.
"in the Franciscan Church of far-away Innsbrück, the finest of the ten statues of ancestors guarding the tomb of the Emperor Maximilian I. is that of King Arthur."
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Another tid bit explanation...
Now, from their conquerors, the Britons learnt many useful arts, to read and to write, to build houses and to make roads; but at the same time, they unlearnt some of their own virtues and, among others, how to think and act for themselves. For the Romans never allowed a Briton any real part in the government of his own country, and if he wished to become a soldier, he was sent away from Britain to serve with a legion stationed in some far-distant part of the empire.
Thus it came about that when, in the fifth century, the Romans withdrew from Britain to defend Rome itself from invading hordes of savages, the unhappy Britons had forgotten how to govern and how to defend themselves, and fell an easy prey to the many enemies waiting to pounce on their defenceless country.
Picts from Scotland invaded the north, and Scots from Ireland plundered the west; worst of all, the heathen Angles and Saxons, pouring across the seas from their homes in the Elbe country, wasted the land with fire and sword. Many of the Britons were slain; those who escaped sought refuge in the mountainous parts of the west from Cornwall to the Firth of Clyde. There, forgetting, to some extent, their quarrels, they took the name of the Cymry, which means the "Brethren," though the English, unable to understand their language, spoke of them contemptuously as the "Welsh," or the "Strangers."
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I just asked Jane to hold off closing the discussion till late Monday morning or any time on Monday - that way if there is any other tidbits to share we have the weekend.
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I think of fortune in broader terms than solely financial. One can be fortunate in having good health, children surviving to adulthood, having a special talent, surviving a potentially dangerous situation, etc.
The many of the tribes were allowed to govern themselves, up to a point, at the lower levels of governance. They retained their tribal affiliations at first, for the most part very gradually assimilating Roman ideas and methods. That very few British natives reached higher levels of governance is likely due to a certain amount of distrust and prejudice on the part of the Roman authorities. There were those, too, to that rejected the Roman way of life preferring to keep to the old ways, especially those that the Romans were determined to stamp out (the influence of the Druids being one of them). Maybe we could call them the Luddites of the new world order. While watching the Time Team episodes, it is clear that there were plenty of Iron Age type communities (especially more isolated areas) that co-inhabited with the Roman style communities for quite some time. The changeover being more gradual in some areas than others.
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What an amazing discussion. Barb, I'm so glad you had the courage to tackle the Mabinogion. It was a lot of work, especially finding all the background material, the Welsh history and traditions, the landscape, and remaining buildings and artifacts. I read all the stories, and thoroughly enjoyed them, and the posts. Unfortunately, this was a rather complicated time in my personal life, and I couldn't invest as much time and attention in learning the background and writing posts as they deserved.
Frybabe, you are the queen of unearthing material on the internet--such a wealth.
Thanks to both of you for letting me watch your conversation, and contribute a tiny bit when I could manage it.
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Thank you for your kind words, PatH. Barb and I might have felt a little lonely being mostly by ourselves, but oh the stuff we got into: the Celts and the Druids, late Iron Age living to post Roman upheaval, warlords and knights vying for for status, wealth and power, the importance of the number three and cauldrons, pigs and horses, the origin of the Welsh Flag which took us as far as Eastern Europe/Near and the Near East, early Christianity, Irish, Welsh, and Anglo-Saxon raids, and of course, King Arthur.
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It certainly was a rich and varied picture you made.
Next I want to have a look at two books I read half a lifetime ago, and see what I think of them now I've read the Mabinogion. The first is T.H. White's The Once and Future King, an imaginative, whimsical retelling of the King Arthur story. The first of the four books, The Sword in the Stone, is the best, describing Arthur's childhood. He is fostered by Sir Hector, with the future seneschal Sir Kay for a brother, his identity unknown to keep him safe. His education by Merlin includes being turned into a variety of animals, learning a different life lesson from each species. The books get progressively darker and gloomier, hard to take by the end. A Disney movie was made from the first book, totally failing to capture its spirit.
The more relevant book is a series of five children's books by Lloyd Alexander, The Chronicles of Prydain. Alexander says he lifted all the parts of it from the Mabinogion, and now I can check that. Certainly many of the characters were. The hero is Taran, only mentioned twice in the M., just his name and that of his son. Here he starts life as an assistant pig keeper, having many adventures as he finds himself, fights battles to save the country, falls in love with a Daughter of Llyr, and ends up as a king. Gwydion is there, and Gwrgi, and Arawn, and the magic cauldron that revives the dead, and others, but I don't remember the book well enough to see how close they are to their originals.
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Yep, have to agree Pat - if it is there frybabe finds it - this was a great discussion - but then I figured it would be good since we had a great time talking about the Silk Road in an earlier discussion - Amazing how some of that spilled over in all places but here in Mobinogion - do not remember if the Roman horsemen were mentioned in the Mobinogion or during research we found it - but wow that was a shocker...
Now I must find a copy of The Chronicles of Prydain sounds like more about the various Arthur characters we seldom hear about. Pat thanks, you always nail the most important aspects of anything we read - and now you even have me curious about White's The Once and Future King - never did read it although over the years there have been so many references it felt like I read it.
Thanks frybabe for making yet another discussion exciting with so many great finds -
Tra la - found a couple of sites where we can download The Chronicles of Prydain
https://epdf.pub/the-book-of-three-the-chronicles-of-prydain-book-1.html
https://raunabray.firebaseapp.com/The-Book-of-Three-(The-Chronicles-of-Prydain-Book-1)-26729989.html
even an audio version
https://ezaudiobookforsoul.com/audiobook-series/the-chronicles-of-prydain/the-book-of-three-audiobook/#Download_and_listen_free