Author Topic: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ January Book Club Online  (Read 55094 times)

JoanP

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Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ January Book Club Online
« on: September 22, 2011, 04:43:50 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

Ship of Fools
Katherine Anne Porter




   "The idea for Ship of Fools originated in a voyage that Katherine Anne Porter took from Mexico to Europe in 1931. Some of the passengers she encountered on the ship became the models for the characters in Ship of Fools. Porter began work on the novel in 1941 and it took her twenty years to complete.

Porter wrote that the title of her novel symbolizes “the ship of this world on its voyage to eternity.” The story takes place in the summer of 1931, on board a cruise ship bound for Germany. Passengers include a Spanish noblewoman, a drunken German lawyer, an American divorcee, a pair of Mexican Catholic priests. This ship of fools is a crucible of intense experience, out of which everyone emerges forever changed. Rich in incident, passion, and treachery, the novel explores themes of nationalism, cultural and ethnic pride, and basic human frailty that are as relevant today as they were when the book was first published in 1962."  - Goodreads


Discussion Schedule:

January 2-7  Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)
January 8-15       Part II  High Sea  (first half  p. 71-222 - hardback) -ending with "in the morning, feeling very poorly,  he  asked  Herr Denny by name, please to hand him his medicine."
January 16-23  Part II High Sea  (second half  p. 222 - 360 - hardback)
January 24-31  Part III The Harbors  (p. 361-497 - hardback)
 
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
January 2 - 7  Part I Embarkation (p. 1-69 - hardback)


1.  As you look over the Vera's passenger prior to the Embarkation, do any of them get your attention or interest?

2.  Do you feel it must have been problematic for Porter to finish this novel in 1962,  which she began in 1941 -  based on notes she took in 1931?  

3.  "Why must it always be Germans who suffer in these damned foreign countries?"  What does Rieber mean by this?  How does Porter portray the German passengers on board the Vera?    Does she give a reason why they were in Mexico?  What attracts them back to Germany in 1931?  Do you sense they are escaping, rather  than heading home for a reason?

4.  Are you having difficulty associating the many names with the characters described?   What do you think of each of us choosing a character to shadow all over the ship?  

5. Who is telling this story? Do you see any one of the passengers as the narrator?  

6.  Are you finding instances of racial or cultural bias that are stronger than anything you'd experience today?  Do you believe things have changed that much?  What did you think of the women?  In which historical era do they appear to be?

7.  How did the first class passengers regard the new passagers talken on board in Havana? Did any of them show compassion? Whose reaction seemed the most  inappropriate?  

8. Did you notice how much space is devoted to homely adolescent  Elsa and her  concern that she might never fall in love - or be loved? Do you think we'll hear more about her as the story progresses?


Discussion Leaders:  Joan P  and  Marcie




JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2011, 05:06:08 PM »
This should be quite an interesting discussion.  K A Porter based her  "Ship of Fools" on observations of her fellow passengers on a sea voyage in 1931.  She called the book  an allegory that traces the rise of Nazism and looks metaphorically at the progress of the world on its "voyage to eternity." Her story is set in the autumn of the year 1931, can be seen as an attack on a world that allowed the Second World War to happen."

 Her apt title was taken from a 15th century book,  Ship of Fools (1494) by Sebastian Brant, "an allegory depicting a vessel populated by human inhabitants who are deranged, frivolous, or oblivious, passengers aboard a ship without a pilot, and seemingly ignorant of their own direction."

How far have we progressed -  from the frivolous, oblivious 15th century passengers, Porter's  pre-World War II passengers - the 1960's, as portrayed in the film by the same name?  We are in this ultra-modern, stream-lined ship together; are we still pulling in opposite directions?

Please join us today - always room for one more fool - or otherwise!  

Jonathan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2011, 09:48:20 PM »
Yippee! I'm for the sea voyage.

Jonathan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2011, 09:53:46 PM »
I may reconsider. I hadn't realized that this is a 'voyage to eternity.' I can suffer fools gladly, but only for a while, not forever.

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 11:43:24 AM »
Jonathan - we'll have to speed up the voyage through eternity to fit into the month of November!  I know YOU can do it!

salan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2011, 06:29:52 PM »
I want to discuss Ship of Fools in Nov.  I am not sure about Elephant's Journey.  Some of you stated that nothing is capitalized or punctuated normally.  I have trouble with writings like that--must be the English teacher in me.
Sally

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2011, 07:17:34 PM »
Ship of Fools is well punctuated.  Glad to have you, Sally!  

salan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2011, 04:23:53 AM »
JoanP,  I'm sorry that I did not make myself clear.  I was referring to the punctuation in Elephant's Journey.  My library does not have EJ.  I downloaded a sample of it on my Kindle.  It seemed rather tedious and disjointed; so I probably will not join in that discussion.  I read Ship of Fools years ago and am looking forward to re-reading it and our discussion.
Sally

kidsal

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for November discussion
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 06:23:00 AM »
Would like to read both.  Perhaps Elephants in November and Ship in December (of course not to jolly a book!)  Maybe the other way around ;D

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2011, 09:05:24 AM »
Sally, you did make yourself clear.  I was commenting on the fact that K.A. Porter observed all the rules you former English teachers value. :D
That said, I just have to add - that you would probably fall in love with Saramago's writing in Elephant's Journey...

I am hearing from a growing number of you - that you would prefer to discuss Ship of Fools at a different time....from those who wish to discuss both books, but not during the same month.  Since we usually opt for something more "jolly"  in December...we can consider January for the discussion of Ship of Fools. - as The Elephant's Journey is off to such a flying start.

kidsal

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2011, 05:17:19 AM »
January is OK with me for Ship of Fools

JimNT

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 12:28:27 PM »
January would be more convenient for me to discuss Ship of Fools, but regardless of the month chosen I would like to be included in the discussion.

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 01:34:26 PM »
That's great, Jim!  It seems that January it is - as it is most convenient for everyone, so far.  Thanks!

harry10

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for JANUARY discussion
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2011, 08:46:32 AM »
    I would like to participate in a discussion of Ship of Fools whenever it is offered.  suzanne

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for JANUARY discussion
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2011, 09:36:18 AM »
That's good news, Susanne. We look forward to having you join in the discussion - in January.  Welcome!

JimNT

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2011, 10:10:54 AM »
Joan P:  I'm a newcomer to these discussions so I'll need some direction.  The idea sounds interesting and as I've said earlier I wish to be included.  Thank you for suffering one of the "fools".

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2011, 10:49:34 AM »
Now don't be so hard on yourself, JimNT. :D  We'll be discussing Ship of Fools in January.  You will be hearing more about that as the time grows near.  We'll have a discussion schedule posted here and you will be free to comment - just as you are doing now.  See you then!
  

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2011, 01:03:22 PM »
Thanks for the Heads up on the TCM production of Ship of Fools in the Library, Sheila!  Have you checked your TV listings for the time?  I noticed that it is only showing once on Thursday - Nov.17 at 1:15 am EST  At 10:15 PST... Will you check your TV listings and see if that's right?

I'd say it's a good movie in the big Hollywood tradition - star-studded cast.  Viven Leigh, Simone Signouret - Lee Marvin, Jose Ferrer - I think Elizabeth Ashley is in it too.  It has been called a "strange" adaptation of Katherine Ann Porter's novel.

We'll be discussing the real thing, the novel   - here on SeniorLearn in January.  You might enjoy comparing "Fools of1965" with those in 2012...  Fools Folks are already gathering here...Please do join us! 

salan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2011, 05:45:12 PM »
Joan, that is the same time "Ship of Fools" comes on here, also.  I DVR'd it since I will probably be in bed by then.
Sally

serenesheila

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2011, 07:11:19 PM »
Please count me in, for our January discussion.  I am looking forward to it.

Sheila

nlhome

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2011, 07:27:16 AM »
I know I read Ship of Fools back when, because I was a voracious reader in the 60's and 70's and read everything I could. So I would like to participate in January and will pick up a copy to reread and see what comes back to me.

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2011, 07:51:14 AM »
Oh that's great nlhome, sheila, salan...the more the merrier.  I don't remember if I read the book or saw the movie but the name Katherine Anne Porter is so familiar  - and this is the only book she ever wrote.  Welcome to the discussion!

Mippy

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2011, 10:40:10 AM »
Do count me in.  January is fine!   Best Wishes for Thanksgiving!
quot libros, quam breve tempus

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2011, 01:58:18 PM »
Mippy, great!  It won't be January 1 - we'll need to recover from New Year's celebrations. ;D
And a happy thanksgiving to you too!

I've heard from several who viewed the movie that they didn't like it.  I haven't seen it yet.  I've heard similar comments elsewhere about the movie.

  One reviewer called it a "strange"  adaption of Katherine Anne Porter's book.  I hope the book is better than the movie.

The book outsold every other American novel published in 1962.  It was based on a journal Porter kept in 1931 during a sea voyage from Veracruz, Mexico, on her way to study in Bremerhaven, Germany, on a Guggenheim Fellowship, and the characters in the novel were based on real people she met during the trip.

  The theme of the novel is the passengers' withdrawal from a life of disappointment, seeking a kind of utopia, and, "without knowing what to do next", setting out for a long voyage to pre-World-War-II Europe, a world of prejudice, racism and evil
This  group of disparate characters sailing from Mexico to Europe aboard a German freighter and passenger ship is an allegory that traces the rise of Nazism and looks metaphorically at the progress of the world on its "voyage to eternity".

I'm really looking forward to see how we in the 21st century have "progressed" on our "voyage to eternity."


retired

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2011, 04:52:56 PM »
I would like to participate in the discussion of this book in January.
Retired

serenesheila

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 01:20:39 AM »
"Ship of Fools" wqs recently shown on TCM, and I recorded it.  Last night, I watched it.  WOW!  It was very depressing.  I had seen the movie, when it first came out, in the 1960s.  I do not remember it being so depressing.

Now, I am not sure that I want to read the novel,  in January.  I will wait for January, and see how I feel about that.

Sheila

Jonathan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 11:08:31 AM »
I liked the movie. I thought it caught the spirit of the times, and the foolish ways of men and women. If it did seem a bit purgatorial at times, well, such is life. But still, mostly lovers' quarrels, and much ado about the usual things.

Jonathan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 11:13:29 AM »
Porter does imply her people are all on their way to heaven, doesn't she?

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 03:30:48 PM »
Retired, so happy to hear that you are planning to join us in January! Welcome!

Sheila, I hear what you are saying about the movie adaptation of K.A. Porters book - the Hollywood adaptation is called "strange" by critics.  When you consider the  history of the book, it doesn't surprise me at all.

-In 1931 Katherine Anne Porter  kept a journal during a sea voyage to study in Bremerhaven, Germany, on a Guggenheim Fellowship -  The characters in the novel were based on real people she met during the trip.  
- In 1940, she began the novel, but for different reasons, was unable to finish writing it until  1962 when it was published.
- The movie adaptation of the novel which KA Porter had set in the 1930's was adapted to portray 1960's  "fools."

So right away, we have a major difference portraying two periods in time. Porter's first reaction to the film adaptation was that "too much was omitted  from the book, distorting its message."
Jonathan, is it Porter who implies that  people are all on their way to heaven - or is it the moviemakers who are trying to soothe the depressing tone of the film?

Quote
"The movie caught the spirit of the times, and the foolish ways of men and women." Jonathan
  Have we always been so foolish? - Consider that title -  from a 15th century book,  Ship of Fools (1494) by Sebastian Brant, "an allegory depicting a vessel populated by human inhabitants who are deranged, frivolous, or oblivious, passengers aboard a ship without a pilot, and seemingly ignorant of their own direction."
Porter's Ship of Fools, also an allegory, was set in the autumn of the year 1931, can be seen as an attack on a world that allowed the Second World War to happen."
How far have we come in the 21st  century  - from the frivolous, oblivious 15th century, the pre-World War II years - the 1960's.  We are still all in the same ship, but are we still pulling in opposite directions?


JudeS

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 01:06:02 AM »
I'll be joining you on The Ship of Fools.
Glad to hear that Porter didn't like the film adaption of her book. I didn't either. It didn't inspire me to read the book at the time. Now I will give it a try.

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2011, 11:16:25 AM »
Really happy to hear that you will be joining us, JudeSWelcome!

Recently I read this description of Porter's book - " an allegory that traces the rise of Nazism and looks metaphorically at the progress of the world on its "voyage to eternity".  I can see where the movie may have depressed some of us - concentrating on the rise of Nazism, without sufficiently on progress on our voyage to eternity.  That will be our task in this discussion.

Porter wrote the novel, basing her characters on real people she met during the trip.  At first I thought she was a young girl on the way to study in Germany in 1932...but just read that she was born in 1890.  I was buoyed by this - she was not an impressional young girl as she studied her travel companions.

 

Jonathan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2011, 02:48:45 PM »
I like your approach, JudeS. Let's 'give it a try.' I believe you are the tenth to sign on for the voyage. And what a distinguished passenger list it is. So, the author was disappointed with the movie adaptation? I'm not surprised. She told others they weren't getting the point of her tale. On the other hand she welcomed contrary views about her book. And that's not surprising. The 'voyage' was something she hardly understood herself. And it did take forever. Using the information that Joan has supplied, the author was 42 when she set sail. The book was launched thirty years later.

She started out with a lot of enthusiasm. She considered titles like Happy Harbor, and The Promised Land. Somewhere along the way her fellow passengers  turned into a pack of fools, and her weary endeavors over the endless years gave her the subtitle 'a voyage to eternity.' Haha, never have I met such a down-to-earth crowd, so caught up in the here and now. Just because it took her forever to write doesn't confer timeless meaning on these wretched lives.

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2011, 03:01:23 PM »
Jonathan, your enthusiasm is contagious!  I hope it lasts throughout the voyage, that we don't disappoint as our own foolishness becomes more and more apparent!

Good news!  Add another name to your passenger list!  Marcie has just joined us!  Talk about a distinguished passenger list!

marcie

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2011, 10:41:22 AM »
I'm very glad to join this group of readers. I won't say "passengers" since we might not want to regard ourselves in the way that the author regarded her fellow passengers  ;)

FlaJean

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2011, 02:19:48 PM »
I'm not too good at these discussions, but I'll definitely be looking in and post occasionally.

marcie

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2011, 05:14:42 PM »
That's great, FlaJean. I think that the book will elicit lots of different viewpoints.

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2011, 07:10:11 PM »
Oh, I agree, Marcie.  There is so much in this book  that will elicit so many responses.  Flajean - your thoughts and observations are as interesting as any one else's.  We are so happy that you will be joining us. Welcome! Were you able to get a copy of the book yet?

Did you read the opening page - before Part I - the page that lists the characters?  Are there any passengers on the list who  got your attention?


FlaJean

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2011, 01:26:19 PM »
JoanP, Got a copy of the book today from the library.

JoanP

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2011, 05:55:51 AM »
That's great, FlaJean!  Have you had a chance to read the passenger list at the front of the book yet?  I think it's going to take a while to become familiar with them.  First impressions?  Do any of the characters catch your attention?

I remember reading that KAPorter kept a notebook on this actual cruise - back in 1931.  We're told that somewhere between 1940 and 1962, she wrote Ship of Fools based on this novel.  Don't you wonder whether she wrote herself into the novel?  If so, which character might she be - just from looking over the passenger list?  Porter was in her early 40's when she sailed from Mexico to Germany.
Does anyone know anything about her personal history?  Had she ever married?  Or maybe she didn't - maybe she's the narrator

It's interesting to note that Porter kept the journal in the summer of 1931 - on her way to Germany.  And then wrote the novel, during and after World War II.  

Jonathan

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Re: Ship of Fools by Katherine Anne Porter ~ Proposed for January discussion
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2011, 04:44:27 PM »
I have to admit to not knowing anything about Porter until now. Except that there was a short story of hers in every anthology. Now I've read several and they are good. And I've started the Unrue biography. What an amazing writing career. It seems she was voyaging all her life, with rough seas much of the time. With a husband in every port. She admitted to three, but it's not clear which of the five or six she was remembering. She was a great mixer and fun to be with. A very seasoned traveller with a keen eye for detail.