Author Topic: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online  (Read 64533 times)

Frybabe

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2010, 07:05:30 PM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.




 "Remember that I am thy creature; I ought to be thy Adam, but I am rather the fallen angel, whom thou drivest from joy for no misdeed."
Frankenstein
 by Mary Shelley

Frankenstein is a story many of us think we know but actually don't. Very few films have followed the novel very closely. The monster of the book is intelligent and soft-spoken. The themes are timeless and full of conflict. Join us as we read this fantastic story, created by 19-year old Mary Shelley, and share your thoughts about its characters and meanings.

Reading Schedule (dated version of book--1818 or 1831-- precedes chapter breakdown):

July 1-6:  (1818) Vol I, Letters, Chapters 1-5
               (1831) Letters, Chapters 1-6
Last sentence: "My own spirits were high, and I bounded along with feelings of unbridled joy and hilarity."

July 7-12:  (1818) Vol I, Ch 6-7, Vol II, Ch 1-4
                 (1831) Ch 7-12
Last sentence: "......and the future gilded by bright rays of hope and anticipation of joy."

July 13-18:  (1818) Vol II, Ch 5-9, Vol III, Ch 1-2
                 (1831) Ch 13-19
Last sentence: "..... forebodings of evil that made my heart sicken in my bosom."

July 19-24:  (1818) Vol III Ch 3-7, Letters
                 (1831) Ch 20-24, Letters

July 26-31:  Thoughts on anything in the book and film versions

Previous discussion questions and links

Questions for July 26-31:

Thoughts on anything in the book and film versions.


Discussion Leaders: PatH and marcie
 


What a hoot! I just noticed a Google ad at the top of my web page. It says "Frankenstein Study Guide" and takes you to their eNotes page with all things Frankenstein including quizzes.

http://www.enotes.com/frankenstein/?gclid=CKCGv5fK5KICFSQ65QodPVI7yA

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2010, 07:24:14 PM »
The google ads are working, Frybabe! Is that the site that requires payment to subscribe?

Frybabe

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: July 12, 2010, 08:32:47 AM »
Apparently so Marcie, I took another look, found the join now button and clicked. There are various prices listed. The pay for use feature is not immediately apparent, but what is available without joining is still interesting. Down near the bottom of the Navigate section is a link to Frankenstein Pictures. One is listed as Mary Shelley's first drawing of the monster. The illustrations below are not marked as to who drew them.

Babi

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2010, 09:47:12 AM »
 
Quote
I once heard of a cover for a murder mystery whose picture revealed the gimmick, letting you figure out the murderer.
  PatH
 Now that must have been most irritating!

 BOOKJUNKY, I couldn't help thinking that if the creature had written to this cottage family
first, explaining that he was the one who had done the helpful chores, and that he wished very
much to be their friend, but warning them that he was frightening to look upon, he might have
had better luck.  (I'm assuming, since he could read, he could also write.)
He is thinking abstractly and pondering philosophically, and  reading books which  should be well beyond his comprehension .  All wholly incredible.   So, I’m looking at the thoughts Mary Shelley supposes for him, of course.
   He is considering virtue and vice, and associates them, reasonably enough, with pleasure and pain. He admires the virtuous and wishes to emulate them.  He is also able to realize that if his  “first introduction to humanity”  had been made by people different from his beloved  cottage family, he would have felt differently.   
    No matter how much salt I apply,  I’m finding this very hard to swallow.

 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2010, 11:19:56 AM »
Frybabe, I hadn't noticed those illustrations. Thanks for pointing them out. The original sketch by Mary Shelley of the Frankenstein's creation: http://www.enotes.com/frankenstein/pictures/mary-shelleys-drawing

Babi, yes, since Mary Shelley put those philosophical thoughts about society in the character of Frankenstein's creation, it's "logical" to assume that he could think himself out of the box of being "forced" to act the way he does in retribution. The book, however, does not follow this logical path.

JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2010, 03:19:14 PM »
Notice another feature of "Romantic" thinking in this book -- the valueing of instinct over reason. frankenstein just "knew" that the creature had killed William, and we are sure that he's going to be right. Whereas the logical proceedure of examining the evidence got it wrong.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2010, 06:54:39 PM »
That's a very good point, JoanK.

JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: July 13, 2010, 10:50:46 AM »
Quote
Frankenstein just "knew" that the creature had killed William, and we are sure that he's going to be right."" JoanK


Mary Shelley did such a good job eliciting our sympathy for the gentle, lonely creature, that I did NOT just know the Dr. Frankenstein was right.  Till now, I thought she was going to prove the the prejudice against the ugly was unfounded...something like Beauty and the Beast.  I also hoped that he would find someone who could love him for himself...  Although in the back of my mind, there is a memory of a creature gone mad, wreaking destruction.  

Now I've read the next chapters - and see how loneliness affected the creature -

Quote
" My vices are the children of a forced solitude that I abhor, and my virtues will necessarily arise when I live in communion with an equal."

Have you noticed an incongruency here?  Victor, when on his own in the beauty and majesty of nature, is able to forget his woes - he finds Mother Nature a soothing distraction.  Not so with the creature, who is living in the same beautiful spot in Mont Blanc.  Maybe the difference is that Victor is free to roam, to return to his friends and family, whereas the creature is confined here?   Did you notice Victor describing himself as " a miserable spectacle of wrecked humanity, pitiable to others and intolerable to myself?"   The same description could be applied to the creature!

But I've jumped ahead...and will go back to Safie's arrival on the scene and the effect it had on the creature...  now we learn more about his speech and how he came to be so well-educated.  Is Mary Shelley making a wry observation that most education and learning could be
picked up in a month or two - from a book, an overview of civilizatio?   Keep in mind that she herself did not have a formal education...


marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: July 13, 2010, 11:03:07 AM »
JoanP, I think you have hit on the difference between Victor and the creature in nature. Victor knows that he has a loving family to return to. He goes out into the wilds willingly. The creature has never known a family and is driven into the wilds of nature, though he does sometimes find solace in it.

I think you make a great point about parallels between Victor and his creation. We can be on the lookout for more.

We're moving on today to the next section and have some questions in the heading for everyone's consideration. Please feel free to respond to any of them or just share your own thoughts about the 1818 version: Vol II, Ch 5-9, Vol III, Ch 1-2 or 1831 version: Ch 13-19  or anything before.

Babi

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: July 14, 2010, 08:54:16 AM »
I'm seeing many similarities between F. and his creation, JOAN. Mary
Shelley does emphasize the prejudice against the ugly, but the strongest element in her story seems to be immutable destiny. It is a view I have always protested and it is one of the factors that make me dislike this book. This perception of 'destiny' takes away our ability to make choices and take another road.
  Both Victor and his creation blame others, or circumstances, for the
choices they make and insist that they could do nothing else. The creature does have the better right to lay blame, since his entire existence is Victor's responsibility.

 
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: July 14, 2010, 08:54:20 AM »
Now we've read the rest of the creature's narrative.  I'm curious to learn everyone's thoughts about the new developments of his knowledge and feelings.

serenesheila

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: July 14, 2010, 02:04:46 PM »
I have decided to give up, on this book.  It depresses me.  I have read up to Chapter 10.  I am tired to the negativity in Frankenstein.  The book is too dark for me.  I have never liked science fiction.  So, I am going to read something that interests me.

Sheila

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: July 14, 2010, 02:30:45 PM »
That's too bad, Shiela, but thanks for giving it a try.  We'll meet again in some other book discussion.

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: July 14, 2010, 02:57:39 PM »
Babi, I somehow missed your post, which landed 4 seconds before mine.  Nice comparison.  I don't believe in immutable destiny either.  Victor, especially, annoys me by just standing around wringing his hands saying he can't do anything.  He should have taken vigorous action from the start to try to undo or contain the harm he has done.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: July 14, 2010, 04:43:35 PM »
Sheila, I'm sorry that we're losing you from this discussion. Just to let you know.. all science fiction isn't "dark" (some science fiction authors are quite humorous) but as you can see from the posts, many of us are having some trouble with Frankenstein's lack of action and melodramatic hand wringing after he gives life to his creation. Babi and PatH, I'm with you in your opinion of Frankenstein and "destiny" or "fate." Has anyone read anything about how the Romantics viewed destiny and individual freedom?

Good point, Babi, about how both Frankenstein and his creation blame others for their actions.


JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: July 14, 2010, 05:41:18 PM »
Sometimes I think that I give Mary Shelley too much credit- for knowing what she is doing.  I imagine that she is writing the story so that we will respond just the way we are doing.  Is she using the characters to prove a point...is this actually social commentary?  There seems to be a lot going on here, and she really seems to represent the thinking of the Romantics of her time -

I found this little essay - (very badly written  :D)  on Romanticism in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein which seems to come close to clearing  up. for me at least, where she was coming from on the matter of destiny or fate.

Quote
" The Industrial Revolution in England during the late 1700's was a time of great change. The populace was moving into cities, and people were  disillusioned by the destruction of nature and the living conditions in the cities. In response to this disillusionment, people started to envision the world differently than they had before. They saw nature as all beautiful, powerful, and perfect. Previously, the inspiration for literature was law, order, and religion; now, it is in the writers imagination and powerful emotions. This  change in the attitude of the people is called Romanticism. The Romantic Movement encouraged spontaneity, and acting  with emotions, not common sense.

There was  a new feeling of spirituality. People were  seeking eastern concepts of nirvana, transcendentalism and being one with nature.  Victor is a product of the Industrial Revolution. In reaction to people  with Victor's characteristics, the Romantic Period is born. His beliefs are in science and the known world, which is the opposite of the Romantic ideal. He  believes that he can conquer nature, and tries to be a god, but discovers that  he cannot conquer nature and knows nothing on how to be a god."

Victor represents the exact opposite of the Romantic ideal - it is Henry  Mary is holding up as the ideal.  I think the author is as tired of Victor as we are...but she's trying to make a point.  Gee. what was so very clear when I started out has gotten away from me now...
      

JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: July 14, 2010, 09:33:35 PM »
Good, JoanP-- I see it. He is the scientist, who thinks science and rationality can do anything. Instead, the power he has turns around and destroys everything he loves. When he loses his faitth in scientific knowledge, he has nothing. Only when he returns to nature, does he regain strength.

Frsnkenstein's monster has stood as a symbol, ever since it was written, of the feat that the power we, through science and technology, are unleashing will destroy us.

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: July 14, 2010, 09:45:42 PM »
Wow, JoanK and JoanP, that's impressive.

JoanP: "People were  seeking eastern concepts of nirvana, transcendentalism and being one with nature."
"...it is Henry  Mary is holding up as the ideal."

Maybe it's not just coincidence that Henry wants to study Eastern languages.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: July 15, 2010, 02:34:36 AM »
Yes, JoanP and JoanK, your thoughts are very helpful to see the perspective from which Mary Shelley would have been writing. Hmm, I hadn't thought from that point of view about Henry's wanting to study Eastern languages. Good thinking, PatH.

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: July 16, 2010, 11:01:07 AM »
Is she using the characters to prove a point...is this actually social commentary?  There seems to be a lot going on here, and she really seems to represent the thinking of the Romantics of her time -
I think Mary is making several points in the book.  A foot note in my book says:

"...the theme of the danger of a acquiring knowledge whose consequences cannot be controlled is also prominent in Mary Shelley's father's novel, Caleb Williams (1794), and in his Defence of Poetry, Shelley [that would be Percy] warns his readers that 'our calculations have outrun conception; we have eaten more than we can digest'."

So that particular point was an idea that was kicking around at the time.

JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: July 16, 2010, 12:47:35 PM »
PatH, I'm wondering what M.S.'s intentions are in describing the consciences of the creature AND of Victor.  The creature seems capable of feeling and craving companionship - but he is capable of rage, even murder.  Poor little William -

He had learned much from watching the cottagers and the way they love and respect one another. Very positive role models.  It was only natural that he wants that for himself. But when William refused  to be his "friend" - the creature shows his lack of conscience, doesn't he?  Human life means nothing to him.  there is no concept of right and wrong.

   He learns from the lessons that Felix passes on to Safie - so that when hecomes upon that satchel of books, he is able to read - and understand them.  From reading these books, he reaches conclusions that form his conscience.  I'm not familiar with "The Sorrows of Werter," are you?  Maybe Mary Shelley's readers were.  What she writes is that the creature  finds himself similar to Werter - and begins to question where he came from, and where he was going.  Good questions.  We all ask that, don't we?

Reading "Plutarch's Lives,"  he develops an admiration for virtue - and an abhorrence of vice - and we're told he admired peaceable lawgivers.  So far, so good.

But when he read "Paradise Lost" - of the Omnipotent God - and his "happy" and "prosperous" and "beautiful" creation -  Adam, he begins to sense Envy - and feels that he more resembles SATAN than Adam.  When he confronts Victor, his creator, he asks, "Why did you form a monster so hideous that even you turned from me in disgust?"    That's a very good question, isn't it?  What if Victor had taken more care and "created"  a good-looking creature - would this be a different tale?  

Now Victor has promised to create a female mate for the creature.  What would you have done at this point?  What should Victor have done?  Will she be better looking?  Will she too be appalled at the appearance of the male?  Remember how V. assembled the male - from a collection of body parts in Geneva?  Where on earth is he finding body parts for "her"  in this deserted outpost on the Orkneys?  Is there a point where Victor can make the right decision, or is it way too late.  When did he go wrong?


PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: July 16, 2010, 01:33:09 PM »
What a lot of good points, JoanP.

Pat, I'm wondering what M.S.'s intentions are in describing the consciences of the creature AND of Victor.
Indeed, they both seem to have consciences, flawed in different ways.

The creature doesn't just kill William for refusing to be his friend.  William says that his father is M. Frankenstein, and the creature realizes that this is the perfect way to start getting revenge.

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: July 16, 2010, 01:51:57 PM »
I'm not familiar with "The Sorrows of Werter," are you?  Maybe Mary Shelley's readers were.
Shelley's readers would definitely have been familiar with Werther; it was all the rage when it came out.  We can also use it to date the action, since it was published in 1774.  Here's what a reference book I have says: "..[it] became the bible of eighteenth century sentimentalism.  Its hero, young, unhappy Werther, with his blue coat and yellow top-boots, his love of nature, and his worship of Homer and Ossian, was the idol of an age that delighted in a free display of tears and emotions."

I read it 40 years or so ago, but don't remember much detail.  I got very impatient with Werther himself.  As I remember, he falls in love, at first sight, with the fiancee of his friend, then shoots himself when he can't either get her to marry him or give her up.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: July 16, 2010, 06:47:54 PM »
JoanP, I think you have hit on an important and helpful way of looking at this book. The ever-present "woe is me" exclamations of Frankenstein and his creation can be nerve racking to our modern sensibilities. I think that we should focus, as you say, on the allusions in this book--the clues--that Shelley provides to the meaning, such as the references to Prometheus (the subtitle is The Modern Prometheus) and to Milton's Paradise Lost. I found a useful article at http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1752380/prometheus_paradise_lost_and_shelleys.html?cat=38 that outlines some of the parallels between the words said by Frankenstein and his creation and the text of Paradise Lost.

What I now think I'm seeing is that Mary Shelley was trying to give weight to the ultimate situations of Frankenstein and the creature by showing what terrible pain and rage they were enduring and that they (representing certain aspects of mankind?) were on a course where there was no turning back.

PatH, thank you for that information about The Sorrows of Werther. I meant to look up something about the book since I am unfamiliar with it. It's good to have some information about literature that Shelley might have been trying to emulate to some degree.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: July 16, 2010, 07:12:44 PM »
I just watched the film, Frankenstein (1931, USA) Directed by James Whale, starring Colin Clive, Mae Clarke, John Boles, Boris Karloff, Dwight Frye, and Edward Van Sloan. I had only remembered the scene with the crowd with torches of fire from my previous viewing of this movie many years ago. This version is quite different from the book.

Though Boris Karloff played Frankenstein's creature in this version, he was not listed in the credits. There was a question mark after "the monster." The commentary said that they gave away free nerve tonic and had nurses in the lobby in various movie theaters. The movie was banned in several countries.

I'm wondering how much people at the time of Mary Shelley's writing were absolutely horrified by the concept of a man trying to create another human being (especially out of stolen body parts)? I may be wrong but I'm thinking that many people in the 21st century are more conditioned by science advances to not be completely shocked at the idea of someone creating a human being through artificial means. Maybe we can talk more about this when we finish the book next week or the week after.

There is a list of the films adapted from the Frankenstein novel through 1994 at http://www.english.upenn.edu/Projects/knarf/Pop/filmlist.html

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: July 16, 2010, 08:05:05 PM »
Marcie, that's an incredible article about parallels between "Paradise Lost", Prometheus, and Frankenstein.  I don't remember all the quotes from my 1931 version (it's obviously quoting the earlier one).  If she toned this down, it would be interesting to know why.

In any case, it echoes a lot of stuff I felt, plus some stuff I never even thought of--for example, the bit about the fire.

JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2010, 12:31:54 PM »
Oh wow!  So much to think about - these are incredible posts and links!  Thank you!

PatH - thank you for sharing your memories of Werther's work - now I see how the Creature related to the hero after being rejected by his friend's fiancee. Couldn't take the rejection - and shot her!

Marcie, I looked through the list of movies you posted - the one that really got my attention was
Life Without Soul - This silent movie, the second film version of the novel (after Edison's Frankenstein, 1910), appeared in 1915, and was the first feature-length adaptation of Shelley's story.

I think it was the title more than anything that got to me - Life without a Soul.  Is that the problem here? Victor has succeeded in sparking life into his creature - but one without a soul?  

In the link Marcie provided on the parallels between Prometheus and Frankenstein, I noticed how Mary Shelley heaps all the blame on Victor -
*"Frankenstein has no affection for his creation, but reviles and abandons it. This dereliction of paternal/Godly duty results in a Pandora's box of evils being let loose with disastrous results for all within Frankenstein's world."
*" At the same time, Victor is cast in the role of the Judeo-Christian God as Creator, which places the Creature in the role of Adam.  The Creature, however, is not tormented because of any  transgression of his own. He is a fallen, outcast Adam as a result of Victor's transgression and the callousness of humankind."

OK, here's my question - is Mary Shelley holding Victor responsible for Frankenstein's actions because he turned his back on his own creature?  - OR - because Victor created the Creature in the first place? 

It seems Victor has not learned his lesson because we leave him in his makeshift lab - creating a female creature using the same formula - a female without a soul. ( Does Mary Shelley indicates where V. is getting the body parts for this one - or is that a detail that she has overlooked?  The Orkney Islands as described - are pretty deserted...)


PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: July 17, 2010, 02:40:38 PM »
JoanP--you're giving us even more food for thought.  Does the creature have a soul?  He certainly has emotions and feelings, a conscience, and feelings of guilt.  Does this give him a soul?  Or can only God give him a soul?  What does anyone think?

OK, here's my question - is Mary Shelley holding Victor responsible for Frankenstein's actions because he turned his back on his own creature?  - OR - because Victor created the Creature in the first place? 
Both, I think.  Victor should not have made the Creature to begin with, but having done so, he has a responsibility for it.  That's the argument the Creature uses to talk him into making a mate.


Mary didn't think through the business of going to the Orkney Islands to make the mate.  (It's too dramatic to pass up.)  Not only would it be impossible to get body parts, but Victor also needed lots of supplies and equipment.  He brought stuff with him, but one forgotten item or broken part, and he's stuck.

JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: July 17, 2010, 03:08:41 PM »
Thus speaks the scientist (which Shelley clearly wasn't. She had no conception of the realities of labratory work).

Yes, that article changes the whole conception of the book, and brings out its mythic qualities. Those (the mythic qualities), rather than the writing, are clearly why it has survived, and the basic story has such a hold.

Notice, Victor as Adam fell because he bit of the apple of knowledge (here not the knowledge of good and evil, but knowledge of the process of giving life).

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: July 17, 2010, 07:34:30 PM »
Yes, that article changes the whole conception of the book, and brings out its mythic qualities. Those (the mythic qualities), rather than the writing, are clearly why it has survived, and the basic story has such a hold.

I hadn't thought of it before either, but I'm sure you're right, JoanK.  We recognize and respond to myth, even if it's not conscious.  But there's a lot more too.  Shelley knows how to tell a tale properly, building suspense and pacing things.  And although I tend to be skeptical of romantics, they sure do know how pull off a dramatic background--the mountains around Geneva, the beauties of the Rhine, the creature charging off across the ice floes.

Babi

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2010, 09:29:47 AM »
 I never read "The Sorrows of Werther", JOAN, but I did read a satirical
little poetic critique. Sorry, I don't know the author.
  "Werther had a love for Charlotte
    Such as words could never utter.
   Would you know how first he met her?
    She was cutting bread and butter.

  Charlotte, when she saw his body
   borne before her on a shutter,
  Like a well-conducted person
   Went on cutting bread and butter."


I wholly agree, by the way, that if Frankenstein had created an attractive creature, this would have been an entirely different story. But, of course, what we have is just what Mary Shelley intended.

  I don't know if I can agree with part of your analysis of Shelley's
writing, PAT, the part about building suspense. She announced in advance the deaths of most of the victims; no suspense there. We just had the  aggravation of having hope snatched away from us early on. I really did not want Henry to die.

  Victor and his creation; their conscience and arrogance. Like father, like son??      Victor’s creation is now explaining that his actions are the natural reaction to the treatment he has received at the hands of men.  He says, “Let him live with me in the interchange of kindness; and, instead of injury, I would bestow every benefit upon him with tears or gratitude…”    Left unanswered is the question in my mind,  ie., “What benefits does  this creature have  in his power to bestow?"


"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2010, 10:56:50 AM »
That's funny, Babi.  Indeed, it was Charlotte's charming efficiency in dividing up a loaf of bread among her younger brothers and sisters that attracted Werther to her.  She wasn't indifferent to his death, though--she fell ill in the usual Romantic way.

What benefits could the creature bestow?  Nothing remarkable, maybe loyalty and the service of a powerful and intelligent being?

JoanP

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2010, 12:23:08 PM »
That IS funny, Babi!  I guess I'm one of the few who never heard of the Sorrows of Werther.  This link describes how wildly popular it was in Mary Shelley's time - so everyone knew immediately how she was describing the creature.

I've been thinking about the benefits this creature could have bestowed, had he been better received, Babi.  Some of the answer goes back to the creature Victor has put together.  Had he not been in such a hurry to create a body, had the creature been been more attractive (and not so big and overpowering) - he would have been something that Victor would have been proud to show off - to the world.  He would have been hailed for his achievement - and perhaps the creatures very existance would have been a benefit to science, to medecine.   Although I'm still thinking about this lack of a soul.  Have human beings been successfully cloned in a lab  - like Dolly the sheep?   Do you think a cloned human would be born with a soul - identical to the that of its "host?"  This brings us to the question - the definition of a "soul."  Is it the life-giving force?  Is this what Victor has created?  That's quite a discovery, isn't it?  Has science done this - other than to discover "cloning " the life-force of another living organism...

If Victor was trying to bestow life for the glory of having done so - that's one thing.  If he was doing it to advance science for the sake of mankind, that's another.  Is Mary Shelley clear about her character's motives?


 


marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: July 18, 2010, 04:58:38 PM »
JoanP, In Chapter 19, Frankenstein says that he sometimes refused to go on outings with Henry, alleging that he had other appointments. He spent some of this time "to collect the materials necessary for my new creation." Of course, months go by and it seems that the materials don't go bad. Maybe he was able to preserve them somehow.

That's an interesting question about "soul" and, as you say, JoanP, how you define it. Whether or not one attributes the idea of the potential "goodness" in individuals to the concept of "soul," Mary Shelley did seem to believe in the fundamental goodness of mankind. Babi, these ideas might explain the possibility that Frankenstein's creature might have lived in harmony with little William and others if he had been treated more fairly by society. In the introduction to my edition of the book, Diane Johnson says,"From Godwin, Mary had taken the notion that man i his wild state is a social being, capable of living, like the charming cottagers in her story, in affectionate cooperation. Yet society, after Rousseau's idea of it, is also the corrupting force. The rudimentary and ideal society of the cottagers is blighted by the monster, who, like Rousseau's natural man, is naturally good until he is embittered by his contact with human society and by learning. As he is educated to self-awareness, his resentment increases; he becomes a serpent in the cottagers' Eden. The cottagers pursue knowledge for the sake of cultivation, to refine and improve the sensibilities, and this relatively innocent pursuit is contrasted to Frankenstein's quest for knowledge, which has the object of tampering with or altering nature."

Frankenstein does seem to sense that he had lost control over his original quest to benefit mankind through his experiments with animation of the "life force." At the end of Chapter 19, he's reflecting on his process of creating the female creature and says: "It was, indeed, a filthy process in which I was engaged. During my first experiment, a kind of enthusiastic frenzy had blinded me to the horror of my employment; my mind was intently fixed on the consummation of my labour, and my eyes were shut to the horror of my proceedings. But now I went to it in cold blood, and my heart often sickened at the work of my hands."

I agree with you, PatH, when you say that Victor should not have made the Creature to begin with, but having done so, he has a responsibility for it.

There is an interesting article at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1279684/ about a possible source of Mary Shelley's (via her husband Percy) knowledge about experiments in "reanimation."

JoanK, I hadn't thought of it exactly in that way but I think you are right that "the mythic qualities, rather than the writing, are clearly why it has survived, and the basic story has such a hold."

I found an interesting exhibit at http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/frankenstein/index.html sponsored by the National Library of Medicine.


JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: July 18, 2010, 05:12:00 PM »
That is very interesting. It shows not only M.Shelley's exposure to scientific thought of the day, but that restoration to life was a focus at the time.

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2010, 06:22:16 PM »
Yes, from the little I've read, JoanK, there  were various experiments on the restoration of life and creation of automatons in Shelley's time.

Oh, my. I've just watched the 10 minute 1910 silent film adaptation of Frankenstein at http://www.trailerspy.com/trailer/8588/Thomas-Edisons-1910-Frankenstein-Movie-Restored. The quality isn't very good even though it has been restored; it's a bit difficult to see. What it emphasized to me is that the creature was thought to be evil because it "looked" evil. That's in the book too. People, including Victor Frankenstein, take one look at his "monstrous" creation and assume it's dangerous and to be feared. On the contrary, people in the upper class with their "fine brows and eyes" are immediately thought to be trustworthy. I've noticed that in other writing from earlier eras, including Jane Austen. A shortcut that authors give to describing a character with integrity and intelligence is to give him or her "fine eyes" and similar features.

There is also a surprise ending to the film.

Babi

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: July 19, 2010, 09:00:28 AM »
  I couldn't begin to address the question of soul/spirit in such a creation.  Does a cloned being
have the same character and personality as the original?  I don't even know that.
  I also agree with JoanK, about the mythic aspects of this story being the reason for it's survival.  Myths, I suspect, arise from our deepest fears and hopes.

 Victor is now describing himself as ‘the slave of my creature’,  governed by ‘the impulses of the moment’.   Doesn’t this perfectly fit the description of Romanticism Marcie gave us earlier?
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

JoanK

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: July 19, 2010, 03:04:04 PM »
BABI:"Victor is now describing himself as ‘the slave of my creature’,  governed by ‘the impulses of the moment’.   Doesn’t this perfectly fit the description of Romanticism Marcie gave us earlier?"

Yes it does. And I suspect that that's the aspect of Victor that gets on our modern nerves.

PatH is on a plane, today, coming to visit me. She'll be posting the next few days from my computer.
 

marcie

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: July 19, 2010, 04:22:35 PM »
Babi, yes, "governed by impulses" seems to fit our romantic hero/villain, who is rebelling against the Age of Reason. Here is another description of writing during the Romantic period at http://masterworksbritlit.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/introduction-to-romanticism.

JoanK, I'm wondering if some of that writing in the book is getting on our nerves because we are reading it so closely. In her introduction to the revised text Mary Shelley tells the reader that she was definitely going for a feeling of horror... the same terror she felt when she was in the waking dream state in which the idea for the story came to her. Sometimes some of the terror of a dream fades in the background when we talk about it in detail.

I hope that you and Pat have a good visit.

PatH

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Re: Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: July 20, 2010, 12:26:37 PM »
The spirit of "Frankenstein" did what it could to add a suitable tone to my trip.  A huge thunderstorm took out the power the evening before, leaving me to pack by candlelight.  The storm also took planes out of service, at least for Southwest, so schedules were messed up, the airports were a mess, and I got in several hours late, pretty wiped out.  But it's nice here, not as hot as DC, and I love Joan's new condo.

Back after coffee.