Frankenstein by Mary Shelley ~ July Book Club Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

"Remember that I am thy creature; I ought to be thy Adam, but I am rather the fallen angel, whom thou drivest from joy for no misdeed."

Frankenstein  by Mary Shelley Frankenstein is a story many of us think we know but actually don't. Very few films have followed the novel very closely. The monster of the book is intelligent and soft-spoken. The themes are timeless and full of conflict. Join us as we read this fantastic story, created by 19-year old Mary Shelley, and share your thoughts about its characters and meanings. Reading Schedule (dated version of book--1818 or 1831-- precedes chapter breakdown): July 1-6:  (1818) Vol I, Letters, Chapters 1-5                (1831) Letters, Chapters 1-6 Last sentence: "My own spirits were high, and I bounded along with feelings of unbridled joy and hilarity." July 7-12:  (1818) Vol I, Ch 6-7, Vol II, Ch 1-4                  (1831) Ch 7-12 Last sentence: "......and the future gilded by bright rays of hope and anticipation of joy." July 13-18:  (1818) Vol II, Ch 5-9, Vol III, Ch 1-2                  (1831) Ch 13-19 Last sentence: "..... forebodings of evil that made my heart sicken in my bosom." July 19-24:  (1818) Vol III Ch 3-7, Letters                  (1831) Ch 20-24, Letters July 26-31:  Thoughts on anything in the book and film versions

Previous discussion questions and links

Questions for July 26-31:

Thoughts on anything in the book and film versions.

Discussion Leaders: PatH and marcie

 

The full text is available online at literature.org and Read Print and Project Gutenberg -
Online version of original 1818 Edition

[JoanP]

And let's not forget that Mary is not just a young girl scribbing out her thoughts without an editor to notice the inconsistancies and Victor's lack of forethought.  If we are getting annoyed with the character portrayal - we have to include the noted Romantic poet, Percy Shelly as well. Mary wrote a much shorter story - and then he encouraged her to write a novel.  Don't you think there was corroboration between the two -  at least discussion of what we see here??  Perhaps we are annoyed at the style of the Romantics..."emotions over reason, as JoanK put it.

Quite a coincidence that Victor should see his creature in the woods  on the way home for William's  funeral - but for the sake of the story, I can accept that. Doesn't it seem that Victor jumped to the conclusion that his creature had murdered William?  Was there any evidence pointing to the gigantic figure?  Do you think Victor is overeacting?  I do.  The more I read, the more I feel for this creature.  He doesn't stand a chance. Was Mary Shelley trying to evoke this empathy?  Do you feel it - or am I alone on this?
 
 - I don't know what to make of Justine Moritz.  .  Elizabeth seemed to harbor some resentment about the special treatment Victor's mother gives to Justine.  Taken in as a servant, but then treated as one of the family - given an education

b]Harold,[/b] wrote - that education   "was not entirely closed to new initiates.  There was a small but growing new class of people with money made through their ability"  How do you feel about Justine's good fortune to gain an education.  Is Mary Shelley commenting here by providing an education for this - " girl of merit?"

The one  question that I hope Mary Shelley addresses - the matter of the picture of William  in Justine's  pocket.  There's no way I can believe that this creature put the picture in her pocket after murdering William.  I need to know the reason that photo is there.  Until then, the creature is innocent - and the real killer is still out there.  I really was not expecting to take "Frankenstein the monster's side"  before reading the book...to feel anything for him, but honestly, there is no case against him up to this point - all evidence is circumstantiol.

[Frybabe]

Chapter 7: VF, by happenstance, sees his creation for the first time since abandoning him the day after the murder. He automatically assumes, is convinced, that the "monster" has done the deed. No evidence mind you. His prejudice is showing. This irked me.

Chapter 8: Justine had possession of the picture (pendant?) which was given to William. VF didn't tell the judge for several reasons. One, cowardice. Two, no one would believe him. Three, Not only did Justine have the jewelry, but she also confessed to the murder. While the confession carried much weight back then, there is always the possibility that she was coerced into it by threat and ill treatment.

Shelley has painted a picture of the upper classes being refined, sensitive, sensible, incapable of doing evil deeds. The lower classes are portrayed as inferior, ugly, depraved, unintelligent. All things good on one side, all things bad on the other as is one's life could be evil or good, but not both.

[Babi]

MARCIE, thanks for that biographical information.  Can you imagine being able to sit quietly
and listen to Wordsworth, Lamb, Coleridge!! 

 JoanP, thanks for reminding me how young Mary was when this was written. It does make a
difference.  For an author that young, this book is a truly remarkable accomplishment. What I
find truly remarkable, tho', is that a creature that huge has not been spotted any number of
times. I have been expecting rumors of a giant to be spreading through the countryside.

  Now I am really becoming upset with F.   He is so wrapped up in himself and his ‘pain’.
His brother is murdered and an innocent young woman is found guilty, all due to the monster he created. “The poor victim, who on the morrow was to pass the awful boundary between life and death, felt not as I did, such deep and bitter agony.”    Always,  he is the most pitiful.  He could end much of his ‘agony’ by simply speaking the truth.  The young woman does not have that option.  I am tired of  F’s constant moaning and bewailing, feeling so sorry for himself.

[PatH]

Doesn't it seem that Victor jumped to the conclusion that his creature had murdered William?  Was there any evidence pointing to the gigantic figure?  Do you think Victor is overeacting?  I do.  The more I read, the more I feel for this creature.  He doesn't stand a chance. Was Mary Shelley trying to evoke this empathy?  Do you feel it - or am I alone on this?

I think Victor was jumping to conclusions with a remarkable bit of Romantic non-logic:

"He was the murderer!  I could not doubt it.  The mere presence of the idea was an irresistible proof of the fact."

In other words, "If I've thought of it it's true".

I agree, Joan, that Mary means us to feel empathy for the creature, and I do.

[HaroldArnold]

Comments:
From Chapter 8: “My Cousin replied, it was decided as you may have expected;  all judges had rather that ten innocent should suffer, than one guilty should escape.”  So much for the Swiss criminal justice system!  The book seems to be describing a Swiss version of the Napoleonic criminal justice system under which 3 or more professional judges decided questions of fact as well as question of law. They did attach a great deal of importance on her confession even though it seems to have been urged by her priest confessor who urged it on her.  

From Chapter 11 – 14;  At this point the monster seems to take over the first person telling of his story wandering  through high mountain snow and ice, eating berries  and whatever he found, living in a hovel that overlooked a  peasant hut occupied by an elderly man and a young woman and man.  The monster from his hovel seems able to observe and develop an understanding of the presumed peasant’s melancholy life.
 
Here we see the monster is quite capable of showing human feeling in response to his observation of the peasant’s difficult life.  He is able to amass a great amount of intelligence concerning the occupants through his observations.  I found it hard to believe that one could amass so much information through such distant observation without being discovered by his subjects.  But Mary Shelley seems to get away with her method and we do learn for the first time that the monster has his human side and is quite capable of expressing sympathy and understand for human dilemma.

[marcie]

JoanP, I think you've hit on the issue..that our dissatisfaction with the novel may not be specific to Mary Shelley but to this kind of novel of the romantic period. I didn't pick up on any resentment that Elizabeth felt for Justine. Elizabeth says in her letter to Victor, "I assure you, I love her tenderly." Later she is the one who tries to stand up to the judges on behalf of Justine. I think you're right that the picture found in Justine's pocket is a key. I guess we have to wait until later chapters to find out how it got there! It does seem that Mary Shelley is indicating that Frankenstein's creation was worthy of sympathy in the parts of his life that she has described so far. He sort of speaks like a Shakespearean actor. :-)

Frybabe, Victor says that he did try to talk to the judges about Justine but their cold response convinced him that "thus I might declare myself a madman, but not revoke the sentence..." As you indicate, there seems to be a pattern in these plot points. Victor says that something is so, and that's the way it is. PatH, I like your label: "Romantic non-logic." On the whole, I think you're right, Frybabe, about the portrayal of the classes as all goodness on the one side of the upper classes and debasement on the lower classes but there seems to be some leveling. I recall that in one of Elizabeth's letters to Victor she says that servants in Geneva are not treated as elsewhere..."hence there is less distinction between the several classes of inhabitants; and the lower orders, being neither so poor nor so despised, their manners are more refined and moral." Harold, maybe you could help us out here with your reading about the society of the time.

Babi, I have to admit that I was feeling as you--tired Victor's dramatic "moaning" about his lot, during this section. When his creation starts to tell his story, the novel picks up for me.

Harold, I do agree with you that the judges were relieved to have a confession. They were not going to look too closely at it.

Comments:

From Chapter 11 – 14;  At this point the monster seems to take over the first person telling of his story wandering  through high mountain snow and ice, eating berries  and whatever he found, living in a hovel that overlooked a  peasant hut occupied by an elderly man and a young woman and man.  The monster from his hovel seems able to observe and develop an understanding of the presumed peasant’s melancholy life.
 
Here we see the monster is quite capable of showing human feeling in response to his observation of the peasant’s difficult life.  He is able to amass a great amount of intelligence concerning the occupants through his observations.  I found it hard to believe that one could amass so much information through such distant observation without being discovered by his subjects.  But Mary Shelley seems to get away with her method and we do learn for the first time that the monster has his human side and is quite capable of expressing sympathy and understand for human dilemma.

Yes, Mary Shelley does seem to describe quite a few things that are not in synch with our modern approach. How could that poor family have that additional space where the creation hid and never check it? I wonder if in the writing of the time, readers didn't ask the kinds of questions we ask today? I know when I watch old movies, many seem very unsophisticated (as compared with those today)...even those that have won awards. It might be similar.

[Frybabe]

I recall that in one of Elizabeth's letters to Victor she says that servants in Geneva are not treated as elsewhere..."hence there is less distinction between the several classes of inhabitants; and the lower orders, being neither so poor nor so despised, their manners are more refined and moral."

Thanks, Marcie. That didn't sink in when I read the letters. I was wondering how they felt about the "middle class". Could we then consider that the servants were lower middle class?

[Babi]

 

I found it hard to believe that one could amass so much information
through such distant observation without being discovered by his
subjects

.  
  Exactly, HAROLD. He apparently not only learns speech, when he does
begin to speak in the story he sounds like a college professor of
considerable insight. When he learns to read the language, some short while after his creation, he is reading books at the high school/college
level. We are having to swallow a great deal to accommodate Miss
Shelley's romance.
  And how does this huge creature live in a hovel so closely adjoining the
cottage that he can see and hear,  and yet not be discovered?
 

[Mippy]

I waited to comment on those first person sections until we all caught up.
  
The monster's learning all about human life is like the similar plot in many, many novels and movies, but Shelley's may have been one of the earliest versions published.

It reminds me of the Tarzan stories, and especially the movie Greystroke, where a boy raised by apes becomes cultured and humanized, up to a point.  Here's a link about the film:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087365/

There are many stories about children raised by wolves or other forest animals, not to forget Romulus and Remus and the founding of Rome.   Weren't there also German folk tales about such children?

The monster is, to me, child-like in these sections, learning about human culture and even learning that books tell information.   He also does good deeds ... so is he indeed a monster?
It's like a fairy tale, and is the most interest part of the novel so far, IMO.

[PatH]

I was wondering how they felt about the "middle class". Could we then consider that the servants were lower middle class?

I'm not quite sure what class servants were, but it's interesting to contrast Justine and Elizabeth.  Both were taken into the household from poor families.  Elizabeth, really the daughter of a nobleman, but who had gotten permanently stuck in a foster situation, is raised as one of the family and considered suitable marriage material for Victor.  Justine, of peasant stock, is educated, but still considered servant material.  When Victor visits her in prison she calls him "Sir" and treats him with deference.

By the way, Victor and Elizabeth call each other "cousin" in the 1831 edition too, but this is a term of affection; they aren't related.

[marcie]

Frybabe, I'm not sure if there was much of a middle class when Mary Shelley was writing. She may have reflected the values of her own time or been trying to construct an historical novel of the previous century. A site at http://www.localhistories.org/19thcent.html says (about about a time a little later than Mary was writing): "In the early 19th century Britain was an oligarchy. Only a small minority of men (and no women) were allowed to vote. The situation began to change in 1832 when the vote was given to more men. Constituencies were also redrawn and many industrial towns were represented for the first time. The franchise was extended again in 1867 and 1883. In 1872 the secret ballot was introduced.

However in the 19th century at least 80% of the population was working class. In order to be considered middle class you had to have at least one servant. Most servants were female. (Male servants were much more expensive because men were paid much higher wages). Throughout the 19th century 'service' was a major employer of women." That  would probably mean that there was even less of a middle class in the previous century.

[marcie]

Babi, you say "We are having to swallow a great deal to accommodate Miss Shelley's romance." Speaking of swallowing, how does that 8 foot giant live only on berries and roots that he is able to find?    Mippy, yes the story of how the creation became "civilized" in this self-taught way does remind one of Tarzan and similar stories. For me, too, his narrative got my attention in these chapters.

[HaroldArnold]

I had previously reported to you that I am reading the book on my Dell Desktop using the App software for reading the B&N Nook Reader software   I am finding this reading from my 22 inch Dell Desktop  screen quite easy and fast  (for me being as I am, a slow but intense reader).  I can be quite comfortable sitting back in my swivel office chair about two feet back from the screen wearing my computer glasses.  As I read I highlight a limited number of passages earmarking them as subjects for future discussion and posts here.

There are however two negatives.  First there is no way to copy passages and paste them into comments for posting  here.  In other words if I want to quote a passage out of the text here, I must type it word for word, a process that can be a considerable chore for a terribly poor typist like me.  A second negative is that I have not yet discovered how to insert marginal notes in my on line text.  The program offers me this option so I type the comment and click its apparent insertion, but where it goes I never know.  In other words I, can’t find how to retrieve the insertion.  Do any of you who use the Nook Reader know how this is done?

All in all I like the experience and do believe I will read future books on one screen or another quite likely an I-Pad that is scheduled for an August purchase.

[PatH]

Then for copying, you're no better off than those of us with paper books.

Harold, your description of the Priestly book was so interesting that I asked my library to put it on hold for me.

[PatH]

Speaking ow swallowing a lot, Babi and Marcie, before the creature runs off, he grabs some clothes because he's cold.  How can an 8 foot giant wear normal sized clothes?

The hiding place of the creature is a miserable little lean-to plastered onto the side of the cottage.  It's hard to believe no one would even look in to check for rats occasionally.

[marcie]

Harold, I found the following info in the NOOK manual online. It makes it sound like you only only view the notes from within the book.

navigate to the page
Click Highlights and Notes
View the notes for the page
Click next to see the next highlight/note

[marcie]

LOL, Pat. Yes, the creation found a very large cloak to cover himself at first.

[JoanK]

Yes, Shelley knows where she wants to go and isn't too careful about making the way she gets there plausible. You sci-fi readers, is this common among sci-fi authors?

I agree with Marcie: in 1818, there was not yet much middle class in England. The middle class really grew with the industrial revolution. We have seen in other later English novels that later the upper class will look down on them, but in a different way.  (crude and money-grubbing). In 1818, they don't exist for Shelley. Notice that the poor but virtuous cottagers are impoverished upper class.

[HaroldArnold]

Thank you marcie for your comment on how to access notes.  I see when I mark off a section of the text  I get a screen that offers two options, High light Selection and add note.  So I first execute the highlight then return and add the note.  Thereafter I now see I can read any note I made on any high lighted text by right clicking Edit Note.  I can read it but again I can't copy it for inclusion in a post.  Perhaps I'm expecting too much.

[marcie]

Harold, I didn't find any information about being able to copy the text or annotations or export the annotations. I don't know if other devices let you do that. It sure would be helpful.

Thanks to your recommendation of JB Priestly, I just got "Literature and Western Man" from my library. I look forward to at least browsing through it.

JoanK, the science fiction writers that I like don't rely on illogical plot points. I'm thinking that most readers of Shelley's time were not as used to critical thinking as they read and might not have questioned the logic. Perhaps they would just accept the novel as the author wrote it.

[HaroldArnold]

Joan K for me by 1818 the Industrial Revolution in England was in progress.  The existence of a new capitalist class constituting the small but vocal middle class was the subject of the J.B. Priestly book and the Audubon 1826 Journal.  Of course it was not the great mass of the population counted middle class today.  It was the coal mine owners, factory owners, mill owners, ship/trading house owners, Bankers (who had financed the French Wars and also large yeoman farmers like Shelley’s family.   This rising new capitalist class tended toward the liberal politically.  By 1833 they had abolished slavery throughout the British Empire and passed the first of several governmental reform laws extending the franchise a process that continued throughout the 19th and into the 20th century.

[marcie]

Thanks, Harold, for that information. It's helpful to have history buffs participating in a discussion of this novel.

[PatH]

Yes, Shelley knows where she wants to go and isn't too careful about making the way she gets there plausible. You sci-fi readers, is this common among sci-fi authors?

Sci-fi authors have to be careful, because they have a very picky audience who will shoot them down for inconsistencies.  But they're all over the map on this.

It's easy to forget how groundbreaking this novel is.  You can make a good case for it being the first science fiction novel ever.  Mary is definitely inventing, not reinventing, the wheel, and it's amazing that it's still a good read.

Marcie, I should probably remember from the Sci-fi site, but who are your favorite authors?

[marcie]

PatH, I have many favorite science fiction authors. My list changes frequently. Some I like are: Isaac Asimov, Michael Bishop, Ray Bradbury, Ocatvia Butler, Arthur C. Clarke, Harlan Elison, William Gibson, Ursula LeGuin, Lyda Morehouse.

[Babi]

Oh, yes, PatH. The cover of my book showed the creature dressed, for instance, in a jacket
whose sleeves came only to his elbows and trousers to his knees. Of course, that still doesn't
explain how he got that jacket over his shoulders.

 JOANK, with the good sci-fi authors, they are very careful to see that their schemes are
scientifically possible. They even explain it as well as they can in layman's terms.

  What do you think of this?   “The first of those sorrows which are sent to wean us from the earth, had visited her, and its dimming influence quenched her dearest smiles.”  
 A long life does often bring us to a point where we are quite ready and content to leave the world behind.  I suppose it could be part of a divine plan to ‘wean’ us from our attachment to this world.  Not that everyone has that time given them to be ‘weaned’.   
  The idea is not an unfamiliar one, and I believe it is one of the popular ideas of that period.
Any comments?

[JoanP]

Frybabe has just posted an idea in the Suggestion Box - what do you think of a Ray Bradbury title?  Marcie's post made me think of Ursala Le Guin - I'd heard that she won an award for her latest book -
Cheek by Jowl    If you think you might like to read and discuss a sci fi choice, please stop in the Suggestion Box and let us know?

I never thought of Frankenstein as a sci-fi story, but of course it is, isn't it?  The very first?  Babi, if in fact Mary Shelley was the first, it was probably us to her successors to perfect the genre to the standard that you have come to expect.  

Can you find the source for the quote in your last post?  "The first of those sorrows which are sent to wean us from the earth, had visited her, and its dimming influence quenched her dearest smiles.”   Are we talking about a young woman or someone who has led a long life?  It would make a difference, no?

ps My book refers to the creatures "cloak" - perhaps the illustrator neglected to read the book or missed the cloak reference?

[JoanP]

Victor is convinced that he is responsible for the deaths of Justine and William.  I guess if I were in his shoes, I'd feel the same way.  Especially since he believes that Justine was innocent.  He refers to them as "the first hapless victims to my unhallowed arts."  The first.  

He considers suicide - but realizes he'd be leaving the rest of his family unprotected.  He believes his creature is on a killing rampage.  He believes he must avenge the deaths and stop the "Devil."  I think this is logical.

But when he leaves the gates of Geneva and is free to roam, he finds solitude in nature, he finds consolation. He even sleeps.  Isn't it curious that his solitude is interrupted by a confrontation with the very creature he is trying to forget?  Yes, I was floored by the fact that the wretched being could speak - but even more by the things he said.
 

"All men hate the wretched."

 
 Is Mary Shelley making a point here?

I'm not certain about his proposal to Victor - What does he see as Dr. Frankenstein's duty?  To kill him, to take back the life that he gave him?  If not, does the creature threaten to take the lives of Victor's family and friends?  Is Victor up to this challenge?

I'm reading the creature's account with the same interest that Victor is listening for - the admission that the creature killed his brother, William.  If that's the case, then I think Victor can go after him, without remorse.  But without the confession, Victor has a moral choice, it seems to me.

[bellemere]

Just a jump backward to Justine's confession.  It was made, she tells Elizabeth, "to obtain absolution" but not fr the sin of murdering the child; she knows she did not do that.  But absolution for her other offences, whatever they might be, was to be obtained by confession.  Only her confessor would know whether she confessed to murder or not, and he would be bound by"the seal of the confessional" not to reveal anything she said. 
Pm the question of the creature's learning process, Mary shelley seems to be endorsing the school of thought that says children learn what they see.  Children could be considered "monsters" who are cute and appealing.  They are formed by thier observations of how they see adults acting toward each other, to a great extent.  Mary Shelley had "telescoped" the process in the case of the creature, but the principle is the same. 

[bellemere]

My prime suspect in William's murder was Ernest, the other brother.  He was not as appealing, and was not very bright at his studies.  He had to bear with everyone doting on William for his beauty, and praising Justine for her success at her studies.  jealousy could have been the motive, and he was reportedly the last one to see William alive.Killing two birds with one stone.  So much for my sleuthing.

[kidsal]

It seems that Frankenstein is continually bedridden for days/weeks because of his nervousness about something occurring in his life.  How could such a man gather up body parts and create a monster?

[Babi]

I can't give you the page, JOANP, since I've returned the book to the library. The reference
was to Elizabeth, as I recall, who of course was not old. It was in thinking of that comment
that I considered it in the light of those growing old and becoming more detached.  I wondered
what others might think of it, since it does not seem at all applicable to young people. Another
expression of Romanticist thought, I assume.

 (Incidentally, I am persuaded that illustrators rarely read the book they are illustrating. The
covers so seldom match what the descriptions in the story.)

  Nervous prostration appears to be another Romantic idea of how a noble character would react.  This occurred after the completion of the monster and Victor's horror at the result, tho', KIDSAL. Before that, all his nervous energy was directed toward the completion of his project. Our modern reaction, of course, would be that the hero should be of 'sterner stuff'.  Languishing and moaning do not at all fit our ideas of a heroic type.

[PatH]

Good point about the confession, Bellemere.  How come everyone knew what Justine had confessed to the priest?  Maybe he made her cofess publicly as part of her atonement.

I agree, Kidsal and Babi, Victor can't stand up to anything without collapsing.  Nervous prostration is an occupational hazard of Romantic heroes and heroines.

Babi, I once heard of a cover for a murder mystery whose picture revealed the gimmick, letting you figure out the murderer.

[Bookjunky]

Loving the discussion. It fascinated me the creation hiding all that time in the little room watching and learning. Kind of makes me wonder where the brain came from that was put into him.

The way he did all the helpful things for his watchees at night showed a potential he could have had if those he encountered might have treated him better and embraced him a bit.

[PatH]

Kind of makes me wonder where the brain came from that was put into him.

Yes, Bookjunky, it's a quality brain.  His learning curve, going from figuring out what words are to speaking in elaborate sentences with perfect grammar in 2 years, is even steeper than Victor learning all of science in a few years.  Maybe Victor should have kept it for himself.

The way he did all the helpful things for his watchees at night showed a potential he could have had if those he encountered might have treated him better and embraced him a bit.

Right on!

[JoanK]

This seems to be one of the points of the story. If he is treated with kindness, he can be kind: if with hatred, he can hate even more. What do we think of that now?

[marcie]

“The first of those sorrows which are sent to wean us from the earth, had visited her, and its dimming influence quenched her dearest smiles.” This excerpt that Babi quotes is at the beginning of Chapter 9 after Justine has been put to death. The quote is about Elizabeth. Here is some more of the context:

"Our house was the house of mourning. My father's health was
deeply shaken by the horror of the recent events. Elizabeth was sad and desponding; she
no longer took delight in her ordinary occupations; all pleasure seemed to her sacrilege
toward the dead; eternal woe and tears she then thought was the just tribute she should
pay to innocence so blasted and destroyed. She was no longer that happy creature who in
earlier youth wandered with me on the banks of the lake and talked with ecstasy of our
future prospects. The first of those sorrows which are sent to wean us from the earth had
visited her, and its dimming influence quenched her dearest smiles.
'When I reflect, my dear cousin,' said she, 'on the miserable death of Justine Moritz, I no
longer see the world and its works as they before appeared to me. Before, I looked upon
the accounts of vice and injustice that I read in books or heard from others as tales of
ancient days or imaginary evils; at least they were remote and more familiar to reason
than to the imagination; but now misery has come home, and men appear to me as
monsters thirsting for each other's blood.' "

Mary Shelley's father, William Godwin, and her husband, Percy Bysshe Shelley, were both atheists. It's not clear to me whether Mary Shelley is expressing her own view in that sentence or whether she is putting into Victor's voice a thought that would have been characteristic of the time, that from the beginning of their lives, people are beset by trials to wean them from earth (if that is the sense of it, the quote would apply to a person of any age, young or old)

[marcie]

JoanP, I don't think that the creation was asking Frankenstein to kill him..but only to listen to him and grant his wish (we don't know what the wish is yet).When he says what I quote below, my interpretation is that he's saying IF, AFTER  YOU LISTEN TO ME YOU STILL ARE CONVINCED YOU MUST KILL ME, IF YOU CAN DO IT AND YOUR WILL IS TO DO IT, GO AHEAD AND TRY.

"Listen to me, Frankenstein. You accuse me of murder; and yet you would, with a satisfied conscience, destroy your own creature. Oh, praise the eternal justice of man! Yet I ask you not to spare me: listen to me; and then, if you can, and if you will, destroy the work of your hands."
...
"Still thou canst listen to me, and grant me thy compassion. By the virtues that I once possessed, I demand this from you. Hear my tale; it is long and strange, and the temperature of this place is not fitting to your fine sensations; come to the hut upon the mountain. The sun is yet high in the heavens; before it descends to hide itself behind yon snowy precipices, and illuminate another world, you will have heard my story, and can decide. On you it rests, whether I quit forever the neighbourhood of man, and lead a harmless life, or become the scourge of your fellow-creatures, and the author of your own speedy ruin."

JoanP, I've been thinking along those lines too. You ask if Mary Shelley is making a point when she has the creation say "All men hate the wretched..." There were several times when I noticed that the author might be making social commentary. She does seem to have picked up on her mother's vindication of individual, civil rights.

[marcie]

Good point, Bellemere. As you say, Justine confessed to the murder of William because her confessor "threatened excommunication and hell fire" if she did not. I think that "confession" is used in two senses in that section of the book. She confessed to obtain absolution, as you indicated, in the religious sense but she also must have made a confession, in the legal sense, that was public to the judges. The morning after the trial, Frankenstein goes to court and "The person to whom I addressed myself added that Justine had already confessed her guilt. 'That evidence,' he observed, 'was hardly  required in so glaring a case, but I am glad of it; and, indeed, none of our judges like to condemn a criminal upon circumstantial evidence, be it ever so decisive.'

I think that the last part of the sentence was another one of those remarks that Mary Shelley includes to point to injustices against individuals in the criminal court. There was only circumstantial evidence and it seemed that everyone involved in the case wanted Justine to confess.

[marcie]

Kidsal, I'm totally with you and Babi and PatH on your comments about the "nervous prostration" evident during the Romantic era.  

It seems that Frankenstein is continually bedridden for days/weeks because of his nervousness about something occurring in his life.  How could such a man gather up body parts and create a monster?

Bookjunky and PatH, I love your comments about the brain Frankenstein used in his creation. Bellemere, I think you are right when you say that Mary Shelley seems to be endorsing the school of thought that says children learn what they see.

This seems to be one of the points of the story. If he is treated with kindness, he can be kind: if with hatred, he can hate even more. What do we think of that now?

JoanK, I think that is often what happens but is hate the most effective response to hate? I'm not sure whether Mary Shelley is endorsing that view even though she has Frankenstein's creation express it. Justine doesn't respond to hate with hate. "She submits in patience to the will of heaven." When Elizabeth detects "an expression of despair and sometimes of revenge" in Victor she tells him to "banish these dark passions."