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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophettitle.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophetcvr.jpg)
AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann
Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.
When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009
LINK: Moses on the Web (http://brucefeiler.com/books/americas-prophet/moses-on-the-web/)
Discussion Leader: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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This is our latest offering which will be discussed in February-2010. We hope that you are planning on reading the book and also want you to know that we have already heard from the author, Bruce Feiler. He has generously offered to call us when we discuss, but since two of the DL's here at SL are attending one of his presentations in our hometown in November, we hope to meet him that night and ask him to join us online. He is totally online saavy and already has a Facebook and Twitter blog which he frequents often.
This book promises to be a whole new premise about America and I am excited to be offering the discussion.
Even though February seems far away, do let us know if you want to discuss a different and thought provoking book. I have started it and I have already learned much about our history that I had either forgotten or never knew.
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ANN, I will be most delighted to participate in this discussion.
America and Moses! I can think of one connection - THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I wonder how any of them figure in our Constitution or for that matter in our culture. Perhaps I need to reread more about Moses in the Bible before we start discussing the book.
Sounds absolutely wonderful! Thank you for suggesting the book.
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Definitely interested in this one. I will be there.
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My book has been ordered and is probably waiting for me at home. I return tonight from cold, cold NY State.
Don't worry Miss Ella, Feiler is very adapt at making his point. Joan Pearson found something that tells of Moses and Geo. Washington both being lawmakers and warriors. It said that one writer had actually likened Washington's death before he could complete the D.C to the failure of Moses to reach the promised land.
The article went on to describe how our colonists sought freedom as the Israelites had sought theirs.
Once the Israelites crossed the Red Sea they began arguing and fighting about their leader. they found their solution with the 10 Commandments and America committed to the Constitution. He will describe many parrallels. It sounds interesting.
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It does indeed, ALF. But then, Bruce Feiler is always interesting.
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What's this, ALF! You are discouraging me from reading the Bible? Hahahaaaa
I think I have discussed one of Feiler's books before, but can't remember which one? Probably one that Ann has led. If not, it is time I did.
I know he is remarkable in his insights into the historical aspects of the biblical stories.
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Ella- MOI? I thought that you read your Bible daily.
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Bruce Feiler's Abraham: A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths is a fantastic read. His latest, America's Prophet, sounds to be a worthwhile read. I am interested in reading it.
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GinnyAnn- oh wonderful, get your book and join in.
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Of course, ABRAHAM, thanks, Ginny, for the reminder. Harold and I led a discussion of that back in 2003. Where do all the years go; the same place as my memory.
It was a good book, a good discussion.
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What happened to "Book Thief" and "Edgar Sawtelle"? Is this book in another discussion group? I'm fairly new to this site and very confused. Is "Kim" still on for January?
Help!
Sally
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I believe KIM is on for January, SALAN. The 'Book Thief' has not
been forgotten, either. I believe it's a matter of finding a discussion leader for it before it can go any further. Both of these are a few months into the future, tho', so you may not see very much going on
about them for a while yet.
Here's what's coming up next:
25-November 22 ~ PBS Programs
November 1-30 ~ That Old Cape Magic ~ Richard Russo
February ~ America's Prophet by Bruce Feiler ~ Proposed for February
January ~ Kim ~ Kipling
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Welcome, Salan, a newbie in SL and most welcome. I hope Babi's list will help you and I hope you will join us for this book in February. If you sign on, and leave me your email address, I will send you a reminder in January so you can prepare by getting the book at your library or book store. Personally, I use the library. ;)
Wow, it looks like we have a quorum and Ella and I can tell our author that we are on for February and ask for his attendance online too.! That's great! This is quite a new way of telling us about our country's history and with a different connection. I like it!
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My reserve at the Library came in, I'll get it again when the discussion rolls around, but it looks so interesting. Read this from the jacket:
"One part adventure story, one part literary detective story, one part exploration of faith in contemporary life, America's P ophet takes readers through the landmarks of America's narrative-from Gettysburg to Selma, the Siver Screen to the Oval Office-to understand how Moses has shaped the nation's character."
And a few sentences from the first page:
"Thanksgiving is the mandatory holiday in my family........it's an early celebration of Hanukkah, the Jewish festival of lights. It's a classic American event, a mix of church, state, shopping and turkey."
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And don't forget the pumpkin pie!
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And the whip cream on the top. Not the squirty type, the old-fashioned whip cream you do yourself! AHA, my mouth is watering.............
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Lest we forget: http://www.scoutsongs.com/lyrics/taps.html
We are getting ready to attend the Vets Day celebration at the elementary school where two of our grandchildren attend. They have added a new feature, coffee and donuts before the ceremonies. Ralph didn't expect to be here this day so its a double celebration for him. He's a Vet and he's alive!! Thanks to many prayers from all of you and a heart pump. Wow!!
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This book sounds incredibly interesting. I just came in tonight from watching "2012" at the theater with my husband and good friends Deacon Jim and his wife who teaches religion at St. Ursula high school. They also lead our weekly Bible study. This movie sure has tons of biblical ovetones to it. I would love to be a part of this book discussion. I have never read any of Bruce Felier's books before, so once again a first for me on Senior Learn. I will order my book off line, I must own my books so I can highlight and make side notes. lol We've studied and discussed Moses quite a bit in the five years we have been meeting on Wed., so I suppose I will be sharing this book with my Bible study group. I can't wait.
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I now have my library copy :) But have had time to read only a few pages. :( It looks to be a good read because of Bruce Feiler's smooth writing style.
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I haven't heard about '2012', STEPH. What is that about? Is it a book-into-movie?
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Its so good to come in here and see new folks. Welcome Bellamarie!
GinnyAnn,
I had to return my book yesterday but I have an owner copy from our friend, Ella. She said to use it while she is in the hospital.
Did I leave a post here about Ella? I see not.
Well, please keep her and her daughter in your prayers as they has a long road ahead of her. Ella fell in the B&N's parking lot on Wednesday and broke both of her ankles. She was in the hospital for three days and now is in a nursing home. She will be there for about 7 days while she comes off of Plavix and the swelling goes down in her ankles. Then she will return to the hospital and have surgery on the right ankle which is the worst break. She will then have a cast on the right leg and a soft cast on the left. So, that means back to a nursing home for at least 6 to 8 weeks.
I am going up to see her today as she is near my home.
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2012- Bellamarie, you said that there were a great deal of biblical overtones to the movie. May I ask, is it referred to in the movie as in the book of "Revelations" or is it just a prediction by someone, i.e. Nostradamus?
OR is it a hollywood brahahoo?
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Andy, My take on 2012, is they were showing that much like the flood that destroyed everything on the earth, there would be another devastation and a new world would exist. Like Noah and his ark, people and animals were saved to carry it on. So I came away with the message, God will always save his people. At Mass on Sunday Fr. Auth's homily spoke on it, and after mass I went in to say hi and tell him my hubby, our deacon and his wife and I had just saw 2012 last night. He said, "Don't believe it." We discussed all the similarities the movie had to the Bible. Then he said, "Just be sure you're on the damn boat." LOL Knowing his strange sense of humor and his message in his homily, I walked away understanding he meant, "Always be prepared." The cinamatogography and sound effects were excellent! I recommend seeing it. Hollywood made an attempt to portray the Exodus and Apocalypse.
Annie, I am so sad to hear about our dear friend Ella's accident. She and I had planned to get together before the winter weather hit us Ohioans. I will surely keep her in my thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery. Please tell her I am thinking of her when you visit. Hopefully she has a laptop, and can join us while recovering in the nursing home.
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SHE'S BAAAAACK!
Ella called me last night and now she is moving to a different place which is brand new, with single rooms, dedicated to therapy for post acute care. Annnnnnnnnd, they have WIFI! So, we have talked her into buying a laptop!! Yaaaaay!
She really sounded good. Like her old self. She had been to see the surgeon who will operate on her right foot early next week and then it will be about 2 months before she can leave the post acute care place but when she does, the dr says she will be walking out the door! "Its a 'murical', Clyde!!"
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Good news, ANNIE. Always nice to start the day with a good report.
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Thanks Bella for the expose on 2012. I am still not sure if I want to see it yet or not. ???
annie, I am in New Mexico and will start my book this AM.
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Annie, I am so happy to hear the good news about Ella. Yea!!! She's getting a laptop, and will be joining us, that makes my day. I just purchased a laptop in May and love the fact it's mobile. No more being stationary at a desk. Wow, to know she will be able to walk out when all is done must give her such joy! I will keep her in my thoughts and prayers for a smooth recovery.
Andy, I truly did not think I would want to see the movie 2012 either. I sort of prejudged and closed myself off to it. Our friend, deacon Jim, said he would like to see it and so my hubby and I agreed to go, with much hesitation. We were pleasantly surprised we enjoyed it as much as we did. It keeps you engaged from beginning to end, so when we walked out of the theater 3 hrs. later, tummies growling, we could not believe it was actually that long. I recommend it, even if you wait til it comes out on video.
I just recieved my book in the mail the other day, and can't wait to begin the discussion in Feb.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!!!
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Thanks Marie, I'll give it a shot. I'm easy with movies and entertain easily, as well.
Annie- it's so strange- as soon as I started this book, the pilgrims were all over the place. Of course, let us not forget that it IS Thanksgiving and the Bible readings for the week are about the pilgrims. When we talk about the book I will quote some of these biblical passages. I'm sure that Feiler had to weed out, literally- what to write about and what not to write about.
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I am 'amusing' myself by studying Exodus, watching for clues to
government and possible parallels to American history. I'll need to go
over Leviticus as well, since most of the law is there. I still expect Feiler
to surprise me. 8)
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Did I mention that I met our author, Bruce Feiler, last week?? He is a delightful 6'2" Teddy bear! And he will try to join us for the discussion if I will email him as its opening up. He signed my copy of "Where God Was Born" as I don't own a copy of our book yet.
And it turns out that Ella's copy is also a library book. My gosh, I almost got it signed too, 'til Ella tipped me off. I wonder how the Gahanna library would feel about that?? Tee hee!
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They would probably be thrilled, ANNIE. On the other hand, the chance
of it's being stolen would probably increase. :'( ;)
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Please count me in. I just ordered our book for my Kiindle. I will look forward to our discussion, in February.
Sheila
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Serenesheila, how nice to see another reader of our book.
I just returned from a shopping trip in Cincinnati and there I was introduced to the Sony Reader, this years model. I am impressed! If I had one, I could download free library books and not have to pay the Kindle fees plus the book. Sounds good to me. Now to get my husband to see it my way. Oooooooo, Ralph!!
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Thanks to Ann and Ginny, I have finally been able to access this site. Yes, Ginny, I will remember to change the password. I just wrote that instruction to myself. I'm looking forward to joining the friends here for Feiler's book in February and just ordered a copy. I, too, like to highlight pages, so best to own it. I also sent a brief note to our SS teacher about the book, so perhaps he, too, will purchase a copy. When he was absent and I taught the class for several weeks, we discussed many aspects of the challenges Moses encountered. A most welcome opportunity to continue learning.
In the meantime, my husband, Mohamed, will be looking over my shoulder as he prepares to return to Egypt after the Holidays. He's been on a sabbatical from his home university there, but is returning early to visit with his 94 year old father, other family and check on some of his students.We've had a bit of snow today, which thrills Mohamed. Wonder what he'd do in the REAL NE!
We're also gearing up for my son's third deployment with his soldiers sometime in July. So ours is a busy family (as are most), which makes me all the more eager to return to friends here and enjoy another delightful read.
Happy Holidays to all!
Mahlia
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Good to have you back, MAHLIA. We should have a great time with
this one. I'm very curious as to what Feiler has to say about Moses'
influence in America.
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Welcome, welcome, Persian. So glad you finally were able to join us here.
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Thanks for the warm welcome (and help getting here). It's great to be among friends again. I look forward to the pleasure of Feiler's work and discussing it with friends (already known and those yet to meet).
Mahlia
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Welcome back, Mahlia. I have missed your posts.
Sheila
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Did anyone catch the Bruce Weiler/Moses segment on Sunday Morning with Charles Osgood on CBS this Sunday? It was most interesting. I wasn't going to join this discussion, since I really don't care much for non-fiction books; but after watching the program, I may have to rethink reading it.
Sally
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophettitle.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophetcvr.jpg)
AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann
Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.
When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009
LINK: Moses on the Web (http://brucefeiler.com/books/americas-prophet/moses-on-the-web/) -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley (http://video.pbs.org/video/1328905759/)
Discussion Leader: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
I have read two of Bruce Feiler' earlier books, SALLY, and found they
really held my interest. Very worthwhile. I especially learned a lot from "Where God Was Born".
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Hi Sally,
Glad you are going to join us in February for this wonderful book. We have already discussed "Abraham" and "Walking the Bible" over the last few years by the Bruce Feiler. This author just takes you right to his story and where it took place.
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This sounds interesting; I'll lurk, maybe put in my two cents worth at times.
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My book arrived today, as well as The Book Thief.
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Hi Jackie and Elizabeth,
We are so glad you are joining us for this discussion. And that you have your books already.
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My family Dr. gave me a OK earlier in the week, so I am back to my old mischief after spending Christmas weekend in the ER after experiencing chest pains. I explained to her in my follow-up appointment that it was obviously just a bit of "overwrought Irishness," but I'm not sure she is convinced. Then I tried the excuse that my son ("Chaps") is preparing for his third deployment in July and my husband is returning to Egypt on Jan. 13th. Oh well, I've moved on and am beginning to read for the forthcoming discussion of Feiler's book. I look forward to it very much and am happy that I was finally able to access this site. I've also shared this site info with one of our local Librarians and perhaps she will check in before the discussion begins. She is always searching for interesting books to suggest to her local Book Club.
Hope all had a wonderful Holiday Season. Many best wishes for the New Year!
Mahlia
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OH, sounds pretty good, Persian. Keep on keepin' as you get ready to say goodbye for awhile to the men in the family. I will keep you in my good thoughts and prayers.
I too am getting ready to read the book. For me, the second time. And now, I own my own copy! I hate to write in a hardback so will use post-its for notes.
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My book has come to the library, i'll pick it up on Monday......hope there is not a list of people waiting to read it so i can have it for more than 2 wks. I'll never remember details - have to take lots of notes while i'm reading it so i can participate relatively intelligently............. ;).......jean
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Did I lose a post here, or did I post it somewhere else? Anyhoo, I found
myself in a dilemma when I went looking for a library copy the book. My
library didn't have one. The county library, every single branch, had copies of "America's Prophet", and every single one of them was out or on hold. I had no idea this book was enjoying such popularity!
Fortunately, I got a gift card for Christmas. I am now the proud possessor of a hardback copy of Feiler's book, the first new hardback
book I've bought in years! (I am not a tightwad! I'm prudent. :))
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Glad to see that Mabel and Babi have a book in hand. Well, I didn't know how popular the book has become in its short time in public.
Babi,
Glad you are prudent or frugal. It is nice to have a new book, now and then.
I am trying to prepare for the discussion by getting together links and questions. I am not good at the question part.
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Book in hand - ready to go! Babi, that's good to know - about library copies becoming increasingly hard to come by. Get on those hold lists now!
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Annie will you post a format of which chapters for each week with questions? I have my book and have read the first couple of chapters. Already am so excited, can't wait to share it with my weekly Bible study group and encourage them to join us. See you all Feb 1.
OOOPS.....sorry just read your prior post about questions. Thanks~
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I suspect we'll find a lot of questions to ask as the discussion begins. I
fully expect to have a grand time debating our views on Mr. Feiler's propositions and conclusions.
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Well if ever there were two topics more debatable I would like to know what they could be, since Politics and Religion are the two most controversial of all, and Mr. Feiler has had the courage to write a book that he feels paralells each other. Most interesting indeed! I look forward to it. :)
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Weren't we told as business women never to discuss politics or religion? ;D ;D ???............but here we are at an age and place where we can talk about ANYTHING........isn't that nice?................jean
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Its the best time of our lives, Jean! We are so wise in today's world! Tee hee!
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You didn't have to be a business woman, JEAN. I was warned in my early
youth that religion and politics were touchy subjects. Nevertheless, I
often heard politics being heatedly debated among groups of men.
Religion was considered a much more private affair. That does make
sense, seeing how our political choices have very public consequences.
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I always was a pretty private person where my reilgion and political veiws stood. In the past few decades I began searcing for more knowledge in both of these areas. With gaining more knowledge I began being more active in my community with teaching religion, facilitating Pre-Cana workshops, and becoming a part of our church Bible study. I also found myself getting more involved on the political spectrun, searching out PACs, working in a candidate's headqauarters, tuning into television shows that supplied me with more information, and speaking out more openly about who I supported. So now I can see over the years my gained knowledge gave me courage to be more open, proactive and public in both of these areas I used to feel so private about.
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I think that's great, BELLE. I've known other older people, no longer
tied down by working hours, who became volunteers in political activities.
I never went past attending some meetings to find out what the issues
were, as the machinations of politics are beyong me. I did love Bible studies and enjoyed teaching. (Adults, not kids! The adults I could at least know were there because they wanted to be, not because their parents insisted. :( )
It is one of my regrets that now that I am deaf, it is pointless to attend church, much less attempt to teach. Now it's TV sermons with CC, when I can find a good one.
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We will be reading and discussing Chaps 1,2,&3 for the first week.
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Have you all seen this from author's facebook page. 'Twas in the Wall Street Journal yesterday. Pretty funny comment!
Did I say I am a Mac fan?? Especially of this iPad!
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3162018&id=67163162953
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I am sorry to say that my library still doesn't have a copy of this book for me. I am not usually a fan of non-fiction; so did not want to purchase a copy. Maybe it will come in soon and I can join you later. I'll be reading your comments and hopefully be able to participate.
Sally
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I think if you read or listen to the links that we put in here plus our comments, you could keep up with your own comments. Try the interview first. Its pretty much of what he said at the talk we went to early in November. We welcome all comments here.
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This is my fourth Feiler book, and I got so much out of the first three I
read. Really great books. Now, for the first time, I've started a Feiler
book and found myself doubtful. I'm questioning some of the claims and
statements, but since it's Feiler, I'll withhold a decision until I see how he
backs them up. Which, of course, should make for a very interesting
discussion.
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I know exactly what you are saying, Babi. I've put quite a few exclamation points and question marks in the margins - (of a library book!)
Right now I'm on the third chapter and really learning a lot~
Annie, can't wait to get started!
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Yes, Babi, I too have had my questions, but am keeping an open mind. I have never read Feiler but checked out a few things to get to know him and his work a little better online. I found the first 3 chapters quite informative, regardless. I just know this is going to be an interesting discussion. I have become a political junkie in my 50's. There was a bit of a stir at our Bible study this past election in spite of us all being of the same faith. I was surprised at all the different views and reasons for supporting the candidates. We decided to .....agree to disagree. LOL I LOVE that option. As far as going to church, I somtimes walk out in a haze even though I am of the hearing. LOL I suppose there are many ways we can recieve the messages intended for us. I truly look forward to, and enjoy you in the discussions we have shared in. You are correct in saying the adults are there of their chosing in comparison to the children because they have to be. Although, I personally would much rather teach children, they are new and like sponges, some adults are all set in their ways and resist being open to possibilities. I admire our deacon who facilitates our Bible study. He and his wife are extremely knowledged and I find I learn something new each week.
Sally, I hope your library will get your book.
Annie, I too can't wait to get started!
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I cannot understand the many doubts and questions that this book is raising in your minds. I believe that AMERICA'S PROPHET restores the promise to a woebegone land. With its many wonders it may well join the canon of scripture and become the Sixth book of Moses. I love the illustrations, especially the 1881 cartoon on page 198, with Moses, dressed as Uncle Sam, parting the waters of the Atlantic to speed up the arrival of the weak and tired and forlorn. The only discordant note I can find is the statue of liberty. Trust the French to come up with the wrong model.
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Did you all see the Wall Street Journal's cartoon this morning??? I love it! And, right on time for our discussion. They are announcing the new iPad from Mac and this is WSJ's reaction to it. This was on our author's wedsite today.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3162018&id=67163162953
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Jonathan,
So glad to see you have your hopes back in place and are enjoying this book.
I believe that I said that I would put up questions but I have decided that they are not what I want to do with this book.
So, if you would all read the links and think about what Bruce Feiler is saying to us, we can get started on Monday morning.
I have an f2f meeting in the afternoon. That will be "The Measure of a Man" by Sidney Poitier. So far, all who have read it have enjoyed it.
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Very true, BELLA. Children are very receptive and adults can be very
closed in their views. My brief experience in teaching the younger
generation was with teens. They were not that receptive and tended to
be restless and eager to be out. I was sadly aware of my shortcomings as a teacher there.
I have't gotten that far yet, Jonathan. I'm trusting Feiler to be able
to support much of what he says. At this point, I am simply finding
questions to be answered. I also see things as natural to the times
that Feiler sees as significant. I also find things that delight me.
We shall see.
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We are getting closer to the opening day of our discussion. I hope you are all ready.
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I'm reading, I'm reading! But I've already got so many notes marked. :-X
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Am ready - Annie, did you see the reference to Fraunces' Tavern? Did we eat there? Or talk about it? I know we ate at a tavern with a SeniorNet group. Awful memory - this might help - http://www.frauncestavernmuseum.org/ (http://www.frauncestavernmuseum.org/)
Isn't it funny how things jump out at you while you are reading something else. I'm not sure how this is going to work - but wanted to share it with you. If it doesn't work I'll try something else...but you MUST take a look at this! Scroll down...
http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/life/15-things-you-never-noticed-on-a-dollar-575113/ (http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/life/15-things-you-never-noticed-on-a-dollar-575113/)
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Good morning everyone :) :)
Seems a bit early but I am looking forward to this discussion and the author's presentation of Moses as our country's prophet. I believe that I heard on the audio interview, our author claim that Moses was one of our founder fathers also?
What does the phrase "the Promised Lane" mean? Did the Pilgrims, on arriving here after a horrendous trip across the Atlantic, truly think this was a Promised Land?
Yes, JoanP, the SN group ate at the Fraunces Tavern in 1998 and the SL group ate there in 2008. We were celebrating our first decade as a book discussion group in 2008. I thought I was imagining things when Feiler wrote about it but it is the place where Washington bid farewell to his officers. Many of our group have sat in that restaurant for dinner. Did we remember or even discuss Washington being there??
Our Latin students who are joining us should be able to translate for us the phrases on our dollar bill. This link that you have discovered references the Latin plus the meanings of the symbols,ie., the owls, the eagle, the pyramid and the shining eye, that are on our money . Seems that early on, our founding fathers claimed God's leadership and protection for this new country (and put their money where there mouth was?) Sorry about that, I just couldn't resist.
Another of the Bible references to Moses's journey comes early on when Columbus is quoted during his first and second journeys to America. Did I get this right--it is in an EXISTING journal?
Often when we hear religion and politics being discussed it is in a negative light. How can politics and religion be a positive force for each other? How does Feiler make this argument?
I tried twice last night to listen to the Travis Smiley interview of our author but kept getting distracted. Will try again now.
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Is this discussion now officially under way? I see ANNIE has asked some
questions in her last post. One that really caught my eye: How can politics and religion be a positive force for each other?
It has always seemed to me that politics is bound to be a negative
force for religion. Getting involved in politics and power struggles has
sent the Church off the rails more than once. As for religion affecting
politics, I would say it is positive only in the sense that it may contribute
to the integrity and moral views of those involved. And there is no
argument that it did contribute to the world view of America's early
founders and leaders.
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Annie...I am so impressed ipad is being promoted using Moses and the tablets. What a prophetic, brilliant idea. I began teaching computers in a Catholic grade school back in 1984, when Apple was the user friendly computer for schools. I was impressed with their ingenuity back then, and they just continue to impress me. They are so far ahead of all the rest. Although, now I use an HP.
Babi...I also taught Confirmation classes to teens for seven years and yes, keeping their attention while they are just beginning to deal with hormones proved to be a real challenge. I have to say I was very proud of all of my classes though, on the day they met the Bishop and were able to answer his random questions proved they really were getting it. Nothing more self gratifying for me then to see my students show off their knowledge.
Jonathon...Page 198?? Oh heavens I have reread chapters 1-2 at least three times already and can't seem to get to ch. 3 let alone pg. 198. I'm thinking, I like Feiler, would be considered the Pedantic son of the four, at the Seder feast, asking and needing more details. lol I find it can confuse and frustrate me at times. I feel like the llittle engine that could...chug a lug, chug a lug, I'll get to where I need to be in my own time. lolol
JoanP...Those two sites are so very interesting. Thank you for sharing them. I can see I am going to be learning much here.
So, today is Feb 1st, let the discussion begin!!!!
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Annie,
How can politics and religion be a positive force for each other?
In my opinion I feel they can be a positive force when the politicians and the religious leaders continue the same work God commissioned Moses to do, lead the people by the laws of the land and by the laws God gave to Moses. Lead the people with unselfish goals or intent. Politics are seen in such a negative eye today, as is religion. It seems more and more people mistrust the leaders of both politics and religion due to the flaws and midguidance by some politicians and religious leaders. People today are uprising and shouting for accountablity, transparency, and simple honesty, much like the people when Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments, he found people of little faith uprising and trying to take matters into their own hands.
Positive can only come in these two areas when the leaders prove to be trustworthy, and show the people they truly do have their best interest at heart. The land of milk and honey Moses led them to, is one and the same the politicians are attempting to lead the people today to....a better living, with jobs, health care, peace, harmony, love of mankind, etc. Much like Moses had to make decisions to put himself aside and only think of the good of the people, so too must every politician and leader, put their self interests aside to accomplish the good of the people.
I have to say early on in this discussion, although Feiler has used Moses as the figure our founding fathers seemed to emmulate in beginning to create a more perfect union in this great land of the free, America the beautiful, I see "GOD" is the true leader of all. Moses, like our presidents, politicians, and prophets were/are simply his Apostles commissioned to do his work. The American people are and always have been the creation of God and he will protect and care for them always. He will intervene when man becomes too much of a force in the world that it hurts and destroys "His" creation. As he dealt with many Kings, pharaohs, false prophets, etc. throughout time, he will continue to with religious leaders of all faiths and politicians who have the intent of destroying what he has created. They have all been given the power along with laws to govern by, and when they misuse this power, God will intervene. Politician or prophet is only as powerful as God allows them to be.
The facts on American history and religion Feiler has given us just in these first chapters is astounding!
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In the blurp about the book on Virtual Bookshelf - i'm not sure where it came from, perhaps Amazon - it says that BF portrays Moses as a real founding father.
So i comment as a general statement that i wouldn't say Moses is our real founding father, i would say that the Moses/Exodus story is a long, exciting, adventurous Biblical story brought to many of our lives by Charleston Heston, but to previous generations by their ministers and Bible reading. The themes are universal: oppression, liberation, making a new society. So, it was appealing to many of our ancestors and easily used in quotations, etc......... that doesn't make Moses a founding father.
Since i have to return my book to the library tomorrow - it is a "new book" so i cld only keep it for 2 weeks as someone else has it on hold - i made many, many notes as i was reading. The first one was about Bradford. ......... He WAS a minister, he talked in the language that he knew, it might even be labeled plagarism in today's world, altho i guess ministers get a pass on quoting scripture even if they don't identify it.
I don't think it should be at all surprising that many of the leaders in any field of occupation used scripture to get their points across since every piece of education was teaching it. Remember, of all the colleges that were instituted in colonial America - i think there were 7 - only the U of Pennsylvania, one of the founders being Ben Franklin, was not affiliated w/ a church.
As w/ all institutions, religion or politics can be positive forces, but, as we are all aware, they have also been very negative forces in our history. They are afterall run by human beings, who embody both of those forces very compatably. ...............jean
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It seems somehow fitting that Feiler's AMERICA'S PROPHET should follow Kipling's KIM in our reading. Just look at the strange parallels. The lama, like Moses, comes down from the mountain-top,after 40 years yet he says, with his knowledge of The Law, yet wanting to free himself and others from the Wheel of Life, an enslavement just as great as the servitude of the Hebrews in Egypt.
Feiler, like Kim, finds himself living in two worlds. In modern America, and, also, with his ancestors at the foot of Mt. Sinai. Celebrating Thanksgiving in the fall, and Passover in spring. Naming his identical twin daughters Eden, after the famous ancient garden, and Tybee, after the beautiful beach at Savannah, Ga. Isn't that charming. But what will it do to the girls?
And so, after walking the bible across the Middle East to find his roots, Feiler finds with amazement that these roots have all along been feeding the branches of American history above his head. What an adventure!
East and West do seem to meet in Kipling's Kim. Ancient and modern are brought together in Feiler's unique look at history.
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Jonathan, still with one foot in Kim too, trying to decode what happened to the ancient lama (wasn't he all of 60 years? :D) - I must say I enjoyed your comment here today. Was he Kim's redeemer - or simply a catalyst?
Mabel, before you take your book back to the Library, I hope you'll read Chapter IV. That was the chapter that really got me thinking about the religion and politics question.
Annie, how far are we discussing this week? Please forgive my mention of Chapter IV if I've read ahead. There is much to discuss in these early chapters this week I know. But I'm going to agree with the Masons' PR man - (the Masons need a PR guy since Dan Brown got finished with them! ) who lunched with Bruce Feiler in Fraunces' Tavern. (Annie - I thought that name was familiar - back in 1998 was it? we Bookies had our first gathering in NY - and dined in---Fraunces' Tavern! No, Annie, I don't think we discussed George Washington - we were so thrilled to meet one another face to face!!)
When the author pressed the PR guy with the question whether Masonry shaped the narrative of America, he answered that that was too much of a stretch, that it assumed too much. (He actually believed there was no greater influence on American life that Jefferson.) I guess I feel the same way some of the other posters do this morning regarding Moses' influence on the shaping of America. I am impressed however, at the number of inscriptions from the Old Testament - from Deuteronomy and Leviticus - that we are reading about here - on the Liberty Bell, the seal for the new United States and so much more. Clearly the Exodus story was in the minds of our Founding Fathere.
Here's what impressed me most about the influence of politics on religion - or religion on politics. I think it was the Princeton professor who expressed the pattern here. Beginning with Exodus, we see oppression, then liberation, a new social contract, followed by a political struggle - and then it begins all over again, repression, opprssion, liberation...
When God is left out of the picture - when he is forgotton, the struggle begins anew. Does it have to be like this? Are we locked into this pattern? Each time we need to find a new Moses to get us back on the path again. Moses was God's instrument for the Exodus liberation. And probably just as important, he provided the law, the social contract. But a new Moses is needed for each cycle. Exodus established the pattern. .
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
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AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann
Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.
When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009
LINK: Moses on the Web (http://brucefeiler.com/books/americas-prophet/moses-on-the-web/)
Discussion Leader: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
I have so many comments, I don't know where to begin. I love Feiler's statement in the 1st chapter :"Stuck with our parents' genes, we seemed less interested in being burdened with their God as well. And we certainly didn't want to talk to them about it."
How true that is (except in my son's home) where discussions of religion, God and Christianity fill the rooms, bu all ages of folk.
I had no idea that Columbus compared himself to Moses in 1492 when he took his Exodus. How do we know that for sure? Did the pilgrims feel as he did and Moses did, in their dismal situation, prior to arriving in Plymouth colony? How about John Howland, just a servant who found himself in the "promised land" at Plymouth free and ending up setting up an estate there. His gravestone, as wlll as his 10 children and 88 grandchildren give testimony to how important he became in his new land. He was one of the first comers into this land and was the last man that left that come over on the Mayflower. There is always a thread of hope and a new land to find. Moses, Columbus, Bradford and the pilgrims had no friends to welcome them nor inns to refresh their bodies. How frightening must that have been to come to the new world? Oppression, hunger, more wilderness and suffering and yet God sustained them all . They cried unto the Lord and He heard their voice and looked on their adversity.
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Joan - i have read Ch iv, i'm more than 1/2 thru the book.
I think BF makes an important statement on pg 21 "The American elevation of Moses grew out of an extrordinary collusion of trends: geographic, religious and technical."............Religious and technical meaning Martin Luther and the printing press would open the Bible to millions of LAY readers and Bibles began to be printed in the vernacular so lay people could read and understand them.
Do you remember that Time Magazine put Gutenberg at #1 when they made their list of most important people of the last 1000 yrs. That was so appropriate because of the enormous influence the printing press had for allowing people to be able to own a book and to read fiction and non-fiction. It provided an exponential expansion of knowledge.
In the American colonies, the Bible was one of the few books that many people had to read. The majority of the people in the colonies were not wealthy enough to afford books.
The Exodus story resonated w/ colonists a long way from the rule of the king. Even when the British soldiers marched into Boston, i'm sure being so far from the "tyrant" made it easier for many people to accept the idea of rebellion against him. The Bible argues against the divine right of kings - a premise of the Enlightenment which was also a pillar of the American Revolution.
BF calls the Bible "a radical political document." I hadn't tho't of that before. I have perceived the Bible as history, philosophy and the basis of 3 religions, it's a nice tho't that it is also a radical political document..........i would add a LIBERAL, radical political document. The right-wing has demonized liberal tho't and persons, they seem to have forgotten that our founding fathers, our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution and also the Hebrew/Christion Bible are based on liberal principles........................o.k., i'll stop for now - lots to talk about in this book...................jean
two interesting sites re: Gutenberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Gutenberg
http://inventors.about.com/od/gstartinventors/a/Gutenberg.htm
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A correction - it was The Biography Channel that put Gutenberg at the top of their person of the millenium list.........stating that his invention of movable type allowed the knowledge of everybody else on the list to be circulated and thus making them even more important than if they survived only in their locale...............jean
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On the radio today, I heard the president compare himself to Joshua as he carries on with Moses work in the promised land, America. Were you aware that Obama's election happened 40 years after MLK said he had seen the promised land but he wouldn't be going there with the people. How prophetic was that?
In the interview with Travis Smiley, Feiler tells us that the Moses journey continues to happen over and over. What did he say about trying, failing, fail better which he attributes to Samuel Becket but actually is biblical. In Time magazine, Obama is not Joshua but is taking Moses' journey where failing is part of this story.
If we keep telling the story and living it over and over, we can continue the dream. We can fail but also, always be there for success. We have to have faith and hope and we have to have a reason to believe. By quoting and comparing our journey to Moses and the Israelites, we maintain faith and hope.
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JoanP,
We are discussing the first three chapters this week and then will go on to the next two chapters on Feb 8th.
I was particularly impressed with Jefferson, Adams and Franklin wanting the US seal to contain the view of Moses leading the Israelites through the Red Sea with the Pharoah and his army drowning on the other side. These men felt that part of America's story was part of Moses' story.
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BELLA, I was caught by your mention of the 'pedantic son'. I had to go
look up the 'four sons' of the Seder, and the explanation I found did not
use the word pedantic. Obviously there are variations. I think the one
I found may have been a Conservative explanation, and it used the Wise
Son, the Simple Son, the Rebellious Son, and the very Young (and silent)
Son.
I agree wholly that Moses was the servant; God was the leader. That is
evident from beginning to end of the story of the calling and leadership
of Moses. We have undoubtedly been greatly influenced by Cecil B. DeMille and Charlton Heston. I believe Feiler is correct when he says Moses was not “a domineering and heroic character”. His influence over the people who followed him was definitely due to fact that they believed God led him and spoke to him.
“With greater mobility and more choices, we no longer passed down religion seamlessly from one generation to the next.”
In the days when this country was founded, there was general belief and acceptance of faith in God and adherence to the religion in which one was raised. Many a home had only one book, and that was the Bible. Children were taught to read at home, from the Bible. Biblical references were commonplace. It is not surprising that we should see a
great deal in them in the political speeches and writing of the times.
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MABEL's sentence is one that I agree with and I shall repeat it here:
".... I wouldn't say Moses is our real founding father, i would say that the Moses/Exodus story is a long, exciting, adventurous Biblical story brought to many of our lives by Charleston Heston, but to previous generations by their ministers and Bible reading. The themes are universal: oppression, liberation, making a new society. So, it was appealing to many of our ancestors and easily used in quotations, etc......... that doesn't make Moses a founding father. "I
My thought in reading the first three chapters of this book is that Feiler is stretching here. My opinion only, but I am a student (certainly far from a scholar) of history and I can't remember one time when I read in biographies or other books that our founding fathers discussed Moses, etc.
That is not to say that the book is irrelevant or untrue. It's very interesting in many aspects.
Don't most of us believe that America is superior to other nations and where did we get such a belief?
Is it from the Bible? This fellow Gomes and Felier believe that. (pg.33)
I think of all the young people who do not know the story of Moses and yet feel America's exceptionalism.
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Annie,
On the radio today, I heard the president compare himself to Joshua as he carries on with Moses work in the promised land, America. Were you aware that Obama's election happened 40 years after MLK said he had seen the promised land but he wouldn't be going there with the people.
Yes, it seems our president has a thing for Joshua. As Feiler mentions in his book, Obama calls us to be the Joshuas now rather than the Moses. I can only conjecture, he wants the next generation, the younger generation to lead this country into a new way of thinking and governing. I'm not so easily impressed with leaders in politics who draw from Scripture and liken themselves to prophets. I think in my own opinion I am more impressed in the action they take that shows they are keeping with the will of God, which has and always will be, the good of the people. I feel scripture has been quoted and misquoted over the centuries to inject a certain acceptance from the people. We have to be very careful in giving our trust to any leader of any nation be it political or religious due to the fact they invoke prophets and scripture. Many a false prophets and harmful leaders throughout American history and Biblical times used such to overtake nations, and convince people to trust and follow them only to find they were not worthy of such.
Ella, Welcome back my dear friend. I am so happy to see you. I hope you have had a smooth recovery. As for do I personally think America is superior to other nations, I have to say I think we are in some areas, but have areas other nations are superior to us. As for human rights, equality, and freedom I feel we are superior. As for economically, militarily and technology, I feel we lag behind and depend on other nations to supply our needs. In a sense I believe this is the balance God intended so as not to give one nation too much power. We as a world need to work with one another, we must learn from and teach to each other. Its like the scripture/song says, "We are many parts, we are all one body and the gifts we have, we are given to share, and the spirit of love makes us one indeed."
I've never felt the Bible has given me the idea we are superior, it has given me the wisdom and knowledge to know that only God is superior and we like all other nations are here to be his servants. Haven't got to pg. 33 yet so I can't comment further.
I too agree with Mabel's(Jean) statement about Moses not being one of our founding fathers, and she wrote it so eloquently.
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Alf said "I had no idea that Columbus compared himself to Moses in 1492 when he took his Exodus. How do we know that for sure?"
I have sev'l places in my notes where i note "no footnote to verify." There is much in this book that we don't know where it comes from. I'd like to know.
Ella - i also have written along side a couple notes "that's stretching" to get it to fit his premise. I'll speak to them as we come to those sections. But i agree the book is interesting and gives us something to think about.
An important point made by BF - the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent.
Also, "the Moses narrative is built on 2 pillars - freedom and responsibility." ............."the Bible's message is there is no freedom w/out obligation. True freedom depends on giving up some freedoms in return for a civil and just society."
Political scientists have had constant discussions about the balance of individual rights and "order" in society. When i taught U.S. History I, during the study of the Constitutional period, my students had lively discussions about that dicotomy. How much free speech do i have; how big can my gun/tank(?) be in my right to bear arms; how much and where can i proselytize my religion; can i shoot the thief after he leaves my house, etc. etc. I loved teaching that period.
BF says the Pilgrims were the first to sear these 2 pillars into American life which is one of the reasons they proved so influential in American history. The Mayflower Compact ( the first political document, sometimes called the first constitution, in U.S. history) agreed to the covenant when they agree to combine themselves into a civil body. The two ideas of freedom and law are entrenched in the defining events of our history starting w/ the Revolution and the Constitution according to BF.
Isn't that the argument that is ensuing about what rights people who commit "terrorist" acts should have? In what courts they should be tried? .....................jean
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Jean...BF calls the Bible "a radical political document."
I don't agree with this point of view, and I have heard others refer to it as such. I see the Bible as the word of God, written by those who not only witnessed events, but who were inspired by God to give this information for generations to come. It is our encyclopedia of how the world began, and a guidebook to help us learn from the past, so as not to repeat the mistakes, in order to protect, serve and survive living in a world of so many different nationalities, diversities, cultures, faiths and ideas. The Bible is our tool in building our faith and community. Many of our founding fathers had nothing else to draw from in forming the Delaration, Constitution, local laws, and rules in order to govern in a way that would bring about an America where we could all live and survive together. The Bible is the book from which every party has quoted and drew from be it conservative, liberal or moderate. Yes, there are many parts that show the political aspects, but with all due respect, I don't agree its a liberal, "radical political document."
"An important point made by BF - the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent. "
Thank you for pointing this out. I too, found no precedent for such a statement.
Babi, I had to look up the Seder, pedantic and four sons. I am amazed at what I am learning in just the first chapters.
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I believe that BF was saying that Moses leading the oppressed to freedom, breaking from authority (the pharaoh) and setting up their own civil community was a radical political act for the time. I added liberal because the liberal philosophies of the Enlightenment speak to denying the "divine rt of kings" and people having inalienable rights and the right to overthrow a gov't that is not supporting those rights.
Your quote: "Many of our founding fathers had nothing else to draw from in forming the Delaration, Constitution, local laws, and rules in order to govern in a way that would bring about an America where we could all live and survive together," is not true for the men who were involved in writing those documents and building our gov't. Most of those men were very well read, even if self-taught, especially the Greeks and Romans and the Enlightment, as well as the Bible.
"An important point made by BF - the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent. " .........that whole quote was from BF, the bold type was mine. He "said" there was no precedent for anybody breaking from the CC or the CofE. The point being that the Protestants had again made a radical move that was unprecedented. .......................Radical is not necessarily a negative word. In fact, in our early history it is most important to the beginning of our country.........all of the founding fathers might be called radical.........remember the quote "we must all hang together or we may all hang separately?" They meant that literally, they were breaking the English/King's law, were "traitors" to their country - remember there was no United States of America yet, their country was England. If they did not win the Revolution - it WAS a revolt, a revolution in the truest sense - they were going to be executed.
The non-violent civil rights workers were "radicals." They were doing something radically different from the norm.
re: your comments of the way you see the Bible, they interest me and i will have some questions for you when we get to the chapter on the Civil War. I mean that seriously, i'm not being sarcastic. ............... jean
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Jean,
Your quote: "Many of our founding fathers had nothing else to draw from in forming the Delaration, Constitution, local laws, and rules in order to govern in a way that would bring about an America where we could all live and survive together," is not true for the men who were involved in writing those documents and building our gov't. Most of those men were very well read, even if self-taught, especially the Greeks and Romans and the Enlightment, as well as the Bible.
I agree they were welll read and self-taught, yet, much of their history and knowledge came from the first teachings, word of God, in becoming the scholars they were. My personal belief is ....the first man was created in the llikeness of God. God instructed men, men then generation after generation passed down the knowledge gained throughout history. Hence the word of God, scipture, (the Bible) even though it was not printed for many years, it was collected and passed down, being the first from which man would gain this knowledge, be it self- taught. As Feiler points out, the first five Commandents teach us how to have a relationship with God/our faith, the next five deals with our relationship with people. Moses also brought down the 613 laws, hence the first knowledge for man to organize, govern and live under as a civilized nation. The founding fathers drew from this knowledge in forming the Declaration, Constitution, etc.
Yes, I think in today's society and political ideology, the word "liberal and radical" could have a negative connotation. Thank you for clarifying. I must say, you being a history teacher and myself being a religion teacher, we will in fact have strong ideas and beleifs. It has been throughout history, the two shall not always meet. I will yeild the history knowledge to you, and humbly confess I am no scholar in either of these subjects. I am and will continue to learn through my Bible study, mass, books, and yes discussions such as these. No sarcasim taken. ;)
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I've been thinking of some of your comments about "the BF stretch." I think that someone referred to Columbus comparing himself to Moses when he set sail - thinking that was a stretch and asking how do we know whether he actually said that. Feiler tells us that Columbus recorded this in his journal seven weeks after he set sail - the entry was dated September 2 -
"The rising of the sea was very favorable to me as it happened formerly to Moses when he led the Jews from Egypt."
Did you see his exhaustive Bibliography in the back of the book? It seems that Feiler did his homework and doesn't make too many comments that stretch the facts without some bibliographical support. Also - did you notice that there is an Index with page numbers - so you can quickly find and reread passages.
Do you find it interesting that none of the settlers who followed so closely the Hebrew Bibles were Jewish? Feiler tells us that Pilgrims didn't even like Jews - and yet the Exodus story that freed the Israelites was their blueprint for escape from oppression. I've been wondering whether the term, "Hebrew Bible" refers to the Old Testament?
I'm not sure in which chapter we read about the early colleges requiring courses in Hebrew. Harvard, founded in 1636, required a graduation address in Hebrew - every year up until sometime in the 1800's. Does anyone understand why? Does anyone know when Jews first made the voyage to the new land?
Actually, I wasn't going to post any of this - it was your posts that got me thinking. I really want to talk about Moses himself.
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Did you notice Feiler's description of Moses as being "clinically depressed at the end?" The cycle of failure and then repentence was the reason his appeal endures, he says. People relate to this struggle with adversity is very American - and very Mosaic too, he says. He says the "Children of God were always meant to be opposed - outsiders." The problems arise when they were successful...
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I did not see Moses as being "clinically depressed, or a failure." I feel Moses accepted he was the chosen one to lead the people out of Egypt and he made unselfish decisions, as Feiler points out, so in the end I believe his glimpse of the promised land had to be joyous. Moses was selfless, and so he would not be looking for a reward for doing God's work. I think he died a happy man, knowing he did what God asked of him. He would receive much greater rewards in heaven.
I found a passage that says: Soon after viewing the promised land, Moses died and was buried there in Moab. He was by then very elderly, but apparently still very strong and vigorous: "Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." (Dueteronomy 34:7 RSV) The Lord probably just had him have something like a sudden massive heart attack-quick and relatively painless. We need not feel too sorry for Moses for the way he died however. While he didn't quite make it into Israel's physical promised land, he was nearly always a loyal, obedient and hardworking servant of The Lord. His humanity failed him, but he didn't fail God. He is still held in very high regard by God, and the Bible clearly states that he will be in The Kingdom of God, (Matthew 17:3), the true eternal Promised Land.
In my timeline of Jewish history its shows in the 1830's German Jews begin to emigrate to the United States.
The Hebrew Bible is a term referring to the Jewish Bible (Tanakh) as originally written mostly in Biblical Hebrew, with some Biblical Aramaic. The term closely corresponds to contents of the Jewish Tanakh and Protestant Old Testament and does not include the deutrocanonical portions of the Roman Catholic or the Anagigoskomena portions of the Eastern Orthodox Old Testaments. The term does not imply naming, numbering or ordering of books, which varies with Biblical canon. The term "Hebrew Bible" is an attempt to provide specficity with respect to contents, while avoiding allusion to any particular interpretative tradition or theological school of thought. It is widely used in academic writing and interfaith discussion in relatively neutral contexts meant to include dialogue amongst all religious traditions, but not widely in the inner discourse of the religions which use its text.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible
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JOANP: I cannot speak for Jean, but what I am suggesting when I say that Feiler is "stretching" is that he has done extensive research (as you say), all to fit his premise. Bits and pieces here and there and they add up, don't they?
Still, it's an interesting book and one we can appreciate for his work
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Right now I don't have a copy of the book :( Had to return it to the library and am trying to get it again.
Some random thoughts from what I remember of the book. First, I feel this is a more scholarly book than Feiler's Abraham. Second, I was first reading it at Thanksgiving and the book starts with a Thanksgiving meal so it felt right to be reading it then. :) Third I remember getting bogged down in all the details. When I finally get a copy again I hope I am not too far behind, as I didn't find it a fast read.
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Thanks, BELLA, for the welcome. I am walking now, albeit with a limp, and driving. Independence!
I thought the story of DUCHE was very sad, didn't you? (pg.58) It has always amazed me that none of these rebels were hanged by the British as traitors. Perhaps there were??? How very brave they were and how fortunate we are to have had them at an opportune time.
But poor Duche, one night in jail did him in, plus his letter to Washington and his life was ruined. Could not he have been forgiven by Washington and Congress?
On pg.47 Feiler states: "it seems that specifically what they were looking for is authority.....An authority higher than the king. God gives you that authority."
That I believe, we are all searching for a higher authority.
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Well, Joshua was not a prophet, BELLA, so Obama's comparison is certainly more modest than that.
Quoting scripture out of context has been common enough from people trying to make a bad idea sound good. The best counter to that, of course, is to know the material well enough to recognize when it's being twisted or misquoted.
JEAN, the book has no footnotes, but there is an extensive bibliography
in the back, and Feiler is always careful to identify those he interviews
and quotes.
"the Pilgrims broke away from the Catholic Church and the Church of England - for which there is no precedent."
No precedent? The existence of a Church of England is due to a break away from the Catholic Church. Martin Luther and the Protestant
Reformation surely constitute a precedent.
“The true church of God is all his elected leaders of the past, and that includes the Hebrew prophets”
. (John Kemp, Pilgrim settlement re-enactor.)
That’s not a definition of the Church that I’ve ever heard before, and I cannot think it accurate. There have been many 'elected leaders'
whose actions and behavior were the antithesis of a 'true church of God'.
I wonder what definitions we might come up with of the ‘true church
of God’?
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Listed below are three of our discussions, good discussions, of founding fathers. There can be no doubt that John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were instrumental in the founding of this nation.
I do not have the time to skim through them for references to Moses, but I have no remembrance of any.
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/AmericanSphinx.html (Thomas Jefferson, the author was Joseph Ellis)
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/JohnAdams.html (the author was David McCullough)
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/BenjaminFranklin.html (the author was Walter Isaacson)
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Ginny, Yes, I am feeling as you stated, "bogged down", due to so many details. One entire chapter on Exodus and then one entire chapter on the Liberty Bell seemed a bit much for me. Granted, there are readers who would find these details interesting, and I did learn from them....I was counting the pages til the next chapter. I personally am finding this book to be Feiler's compilation of his research of travels mixed in with his life experiences and learned knowledge in his studies. Although he has many sources to conclude his opinions, I have some questions on the validity of some facts he states. Given said that, I do enjoy reading the history of the book since I never took much interest in History class while in school. Dates, places, names and events seemed to leave me as quickly as I would read it, and still does. I recall my history teacher calling me up to his desk, and saying with a stern voice, " Patterfritz, I plan to give you a D- in my class so you will pass this required subject, and so I will not have to have you again next year." lol Imagine that....I was so bored I created such disturbances for that poor man, and I am almost certain I failed everyone of his tests except for the ones I was able to look on my fellow students paper for answers. Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! If I don't highlight and make side notes in my books now, I am lost. :-[
Ella, I am so happy to hear you are now walking and have your independence back. Yes, I did feel sad when I read the part about Duche'. He was a brave man and stood up for what he believed in, and sad to say many a people have been persecuted for it. As I turn back to page 58, I notice I had made a notation that he reminded me of St. Paul.
I especially highlighted these parts: "I think he believes he's doing God's work." "And I've always thought this was the real Mosaic moment of the Revolution. Duche' must have felt like Moses, going before the pharaoh." "And the only way you can do that is if you believe that God has called you to do it." "And I'm sure his agony is the agony of all Mosses in American history. He had all the anguish that Dr. King had in 1968. He had all the doubt that Abraham Lincoln had. He had all the concerns of George Washington. Is this the right thing?
I especially like this: pg. 59 "I asked Tim Safford if he thought Duche' failed the leadership moment." "I don't. I'm his successor,"
This is what I feel about Moses, he too did not fail his leadership, because he had many successors to follow him.
Babi, Indeed Joshua was not a prophet, I'm not sure what I personally felt was Obama's inference for using the statement, pg. 5, "Today we're called to be the Joshuas of our times, to be the generation that finds our way across this river." Interpretation is a tricky thing, what one interprets can be completley different from another's. I completely agree, scripture tells us to arm ourselves with the knowledge to prepare us for those who misuse scripture for their own self purposes.
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Weren't you astounded to read that the Book of Common Prayer in which Jacob Duche scratched out all references to the king still exists? That BF got to hold it in his hands? (Did he actually hold it - or just get a look at it?) One of an author's perks - seeing, handling these artifacts firsthand - such as the first Liberty Bell.
Poor Duché lost his nerve, believing that he would be hung for treason if the British took Philadelphia. Understandable. After all, he was human. He shared that with Moses. It was a miracle to me that he didn't destroy the incriminating book!
But Moses, Moses of scripture is portrayed as more than human, isn't he? God talks directly to him. Perhaps He spoke to Duché too, motivating him, inspiring him before the Continental Congress. Maybe that's how God communicated with Moses - through inspiration... So, what became of Duché? He died a forgotten man, was buried in an unmarked grave. I can't help but think of Moses - who never made it to the promised land because of his weakness...
Ella, did you read what Feiler had to say about the Founders - that none of them were particularly religious? - he didn't say that they were anti-religious, but that their interest in the Exodus story came from their belief that slavery and oppression were contrary to natural law and that freedom from oppression required new laws to ensure responsibility and freedom. This is where their interest was centered - not on Moses. I did think it was ironic that they scrapped an image of Moses on the seal for a pyramid though - a symbol of the Egyptian Pharaoh's burial place...
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No precedent? The existence of a Church of England is due to a break away from the Catholic Church. Martin Luther and the Protestant
Reformation surely constitute a precedent.
AMEN Babi!
Martin Luther was excommunicated and considered an "outlaw" because of his break away from the Roman Catholic Church when he questioned the authority of the Pope and the Church elders.
Thank you Joan and Babi for pointing out the select bibliography in the back. I had not even looked at it. Next time I will be more cautious in my quezstioning Mr. Feiler. :o
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Yes, Ella, by "stretching" i meant that he is fitting history to meet his premise, it seems to me. For instance, later in the book he usurps various common words and relates them (only) to the Moses/Exodus story as tho there was a direct line from there to here..........i'll talk more about them when we get there, especially about the Stutue of Liberty - i.e. "light" and "water." He also often makes general statements which, of course since there are no footnotes, are attributed to no one, again i'll mention them specifically when we get to them. I'm not a fanatic about footnoting, but when an author makes a statement as fact, i like to know where he got his info. Listing a bibliography doesn't help me w/ that.
I have always been curious and have not received/found an answer as to how someone like Geo Whitefield could speak and be heard by 8.000, let alone 30,000 in Philadelphia, before electricity. I know some ministers were said to have booming voices, but most people don't. It's just a curiosity of mine. BTW there is a mistake, it may be a printing mistake, in the Geo W story. It says he was up and down the east coast in "1840." I'm sure they meant 1740 - that was the FIRST Great Awakeing, there is a second one in the early 19th century, but Geo W would have been long dead by then or 101 yrs old! LOL
This intercolonial movement - the first Great AWakening - as BF says, was a vital precurser to the Am Revolution. Americans began to have a common experience in hearing these evangelistic ministers speaking. Previous to this time they tho't of themselves as South Carolinians, Pennsylvanians, New Yorkers, etc. plus "English." But as they took part in a common experience AND that common experience was pushing them to think about breaking from authority, creating a language of dissent, challenging convential truths such as "divine rt of kings" to rule over them, they began to think of themselves as Americans.............having a common enemy often unites people. As BF says "the revolutionary period....was marked by Protestanism in religion producing republicanism in gov't."
From a social history perspective - these evangilical mtgs were very entertaining to people who had little entertainment in their lives. Young people came together and met other young people in areas where people were often pretty isolated from each other. There was great emotionalism, even hysteria, and drama; there was music and a lot of hoopla - some fun in lives that could be pretty dreary.
The other BF - Ben Franklin - published everybody, didn't he?!?
Another idea from the past that resonates today.............BF says the lesson of Leviticus is "....the land belongs to God, not humans and nobody should benefit too greatly or suffer to mightily for their work with Gods' bounty." I believe i remember recently of some fundamentalist/evangelical churches coming out in support of conservation and environmental causes. I should think that they would all be very supportive of those ideas...........but of course we know that no group is a monolith and that money has often been the priority of many groups and individuals in the past. Interpreting the Bible has been a history-long event, hasn't it, w/ always at least two sides to every issue.
Jean
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Someone asked when the first Jews came to the colonies. The Am Jewish Hist Museum lists these two statements - not quite the answer to the question, but gives a concept........
1678 - Jews in Rhode Island purchase land for cemetery
1698 - Four Jews are made citizens of South Carolina
I don't know how you were "made" a citizen of a state, never heard of that action before.................jean
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Found this which I thought was really interesting.
An Abbreviated Timeline of Jewish Immigration to the United States
1654-1820 First wave of Jewish immigration to the United States. Fewer than 15,000 Jews fleeing religious intolerance travel here from Brazil, Portugal, Spain, Bordeaux, Jamaica, England, Curacoa, Holland and Poland. They found the first Jewish communities in the United States in NYC, Newport Rhode Island, Charleston, Savannah, and Philadelphia.
1820-1880 Second Wave of Jewish emigrants come from Germany brings 250,000 German Jews come to the United states.
1880 - 1920's A third wave of Jewish immigration follow son the heels of the Turkish Revolution and the collapse of the Ottoman empire. Sephardi Jews from the Balkans and Middle East begin to immigrate to the United States. They come from Turkey, Greece, and the lands that formed Yugoslavia.
1911-1920 Biggest wave of Syrian Jewish immigrants to the United States.
1881–1924 Waves of pogroms (anti-Jewish riots), poverty, and mandatory
conscription in the Jewish Pale of Settlement in Russia and Eastern Europe cause 2,000,000 Jews to emigrate to the United States
1914 The outbreak of World War I brings an influx of Jews from Eastern Europe to the US, including 138,051 in 1914 alone.
1917 Restrictions on immigration, including a literacy test, were instated that severely restricted the entry of Jews to the United States.
November 7th, 1919 On the second anniversary of the Russian Revolution, over 10,000 suspected communists and anarchists were arrested in what became known as the Palmer Raids. Palmer and Hoover found no evidence of a proposed revolution but large number of these suspects were held without trial for a long time. The vast majority were eventually released but 248 other people were deported to Russia. This included a large number of Jews including Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman and Mollie Steimer.
1921-1924 The National Origins Quota legislation passes, restricting the number of immigrants allowed into America to no more than two percent of the number of each nationality residing in the U.S. in 1890. Due to the National Origins Quota of 1924 few Eastern European refugees were allowed into the US during World War II.
1930's Jews of Yemen granted visa's to the United States.
1939 About 70,000 Sephardi Jews are now living in the United States, a majority of whom live in New York City.
1924–44 100,000 refugees fleeing Hitler, Pre-Holocaust arrive in the United States.
1945–60 250,000 Holocaust survivors arrive.
1956-1967 Egyptian and Syrian Jews come to the United States following the Suez crisis and other wars in the region. Israeli emigrants (Yordim) begin arriving in the United. Though they have migrated from the pre-statehood period to the present, numbers increase. Their communities include Israelis of (amongst others) Syrian, Lebanese, Yemenite, and Adenic descent.
1956 Hungarian Jews, fleeing the Soviet invasion of Hungary, come to the United States.
1959 Jews come to the US during the Cuban Revolution
1960's A wave of Jews from Algeria, Libya and Morocco come to the United States from France.
1968 Prague Spring brings Czechoslovakian Jews to the United States.
1970's Polish pogroms bring another wave of Jewish immigrants.
1972 there are at least 24,000 Jews of Syrian descent in NYC.
1979 The overthrow of the Shah precipitates a steady flow of Jews from Iran.
1979 First peak wave of Jews from the USSR.
1985-1990 over 140,000 Jews from former Soviet countries come to the US
1989 15-20 thousand Bukharin Jews from Central Asia emigrate to the United States from the former Soviet Union
Today Up to 50,000 Jews per year continue to emigrate to the United States.
Compiled by Jenny Romaine at Jews for Racial & Economic Justice.
http://www.jfrej.org/Jewish.Immigration.Timeline.html
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You rang a bell for me, Jean, when you reminded us that our founding fathers were well educated. I remember that they were sent to study with well known teachers as they matured. Sometimes living with the school master for a number of years and they were filled with the philosophy and laws of the Romans and the Greeks.
Here's an interesting link about Roman Law:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_law)
I also recall that much of our Constitutional laws plus our bill of rights comes from the Magna Carta.
Link to Magna Carta and American Law: http://www.magnacharta.com/articles/article04.htm (http://www.magnacharta.com/articles/article04.htm)
I remember an old, old TV program that was about our revolution and our brave young radicals who fomented declaring our country free from the king. See "Founding Fathers" on the History Channel. Samuel Adams was the Moses of that time as he lead many others to the fight for freedom. He led the Boston Tea Party along with John Hancock. After signing the Declaration of Independence, he returned to Boston and helped write the MA constitution and served as governor for several years. I believe that Sam and John Adams were second cousins.
Link to Sam Adams: http://www.patriotresource.com/amerrev/people/patriots/samadams.html (http://www.patriotresource.com/amerrev/people/patriots/samadams.html)
Another link to Sam Adams, Patriot and Father of American Independence: http://www.americansonsofliberty.com/samadams.htm (http://www.americansonsofliberty.com/samadams.htm)
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Well, back to Moses and his leadership problems. One thing stands out for me in Moses journey and that is his acceptance of God's saying he would not go to the promised land and his humility, staying behind while teaching the Israelites how to live in that distant place. Were the tablets of God's laws going to be followed?
I think that BF has done a good job of chronologically showing us the connections throughout our history to many Moses stories.
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BELLA, I cheerfully confess to skimming over 'Exodus', since I'm well
familiar with that, and the Liberty Bell, since I felt it was getting
more attention than was reasonable. That still left plenty to read and
talk about. I am greatly enjoying learning about people I'd never heard of
before, such as Jacob Duche'. Human nature never changes, does it? The first meeting of the
Continental Congress and they could not agree on opening prayer because they were of so many different denominations. Duche' appears to have played a significant role. The painting of the reading of Psalm 35 is a powerful scene.
I appreciate Rev. Safford ‘s sense of a priestly bond of understanding
with his predecessor. His sense of how Duche must have felt during all
this strikes me as very genuine. I can well believe Duche’s feelings
were as Safford describes them: scared, excited, sincere, uncertain. The
Book of Romans speaks strongly of authority being instituted of God and
of the Christian duty to submit to the established authority. It would
take a good deal of hard soul-searching to be persuaded that the higher
authority… God…approved this rebellion.
The key to that question, IMO, is whether you see God as establishing
the principle of authority as necessary in society, or whether you
believe, as some do, that every person in authority is placed there by God. The latter interpretation (again, IMO) does not hold up, but many
accept it.
God speaking to Moses is certainly extraordinary, JOAN. But Moses
reaction is so perfectly human. 'Who, me? I can't do that!" The wonder of
it is that God is able to use people, despite their weaknesses and flaws.
. I remember reading a first-hand account of the
preaching of George Whitefield. I’m not sure whether I read it in Ben Franklin’s autobiography or the Journal of John Wesley. It said he had a powerful, sonorous voice. He once preached out of doors to a crowd estimated at, if I remember correctly, 3000 people, and even those on the edges could hear him. That was in a city square, and I would suppose the surrounding buildings helped.
30,000, ELLA? Could one even find a crowd of 30,000 in one spot in those days?
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Annie and Marie - great sites, great info, thanks for those.
Jacob Duche is an example of people we never heard of who everyday do heroic things. Whether you are interested in the religious aspect of the story or not, it was a courageous act. I was intrigued by Geo Washington's response to JD"S letter to stop the war....."a ridiculous illiberal performance." IMO that again reinforces their respect for liberalism.
Babi - one of the reasons there are SO many protestant denominations is because of the "human behavior" to insist that what i believe is correct and so i'm going to argue w/ you about tidbits of behavior/belief. e.g. Do we sprinkle or dunk to baptist? .........You're right, it never changes. Makes life interesting. :)
I think that there is a fine line between thinking "God is on our side/approves this rebellion/action, etc.," being arrogant enough to think we know what God "thinks/says,etc.," and becoming oppressive, even violent in our behavior toward others. I believe I should always look at the bigger concept and decide w/ my "God-given" intelligence whether it is the appropriate thing to do. Am i hurting others by pursuing this line of argument or behavior? Is it moral and ethical to do what i am intending to do? .................. I don't believe one has to be religious or of a particular religion to be moral and ethical. ................I think someone just wrote a book w/ some title similar to Do You Have to be REligious to be Moral.
30,000 people in Phila in those days would have had to have been everyone in the city.............???? Maybe BF didn't mean all 30,000 at once.........and i agree, where would that have actually taken place? This is one of the places i would like to have had a footnote. ........ even a city square at that time would not have had buildings tall enough to act as a "chamber." ................gives us a lot to think about..........jean
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Our PBS station rebroadcast the first episode of the National Parks last night. It is so well done, the photography and the narrative is so beautiful. It made me think again about the Leviticus quote about "the land belongs to God not humans and nobody should benefit to greatly or suffer to mightily for thr work w/ God's bounty."
On pg 47 the Indpendence Hall guide says "....a lot of people today feel that the Enlightenment was antireligious...that people like Paine, B Franklin and others were deists and didn't believe in God." Actually deist comes from deus, meaning God........the Encarta definition:
"rational belief in God: a belief in God based on reason rather than revelation and involving the view that God has set the universe in motion but does not interfere with how it runs. Deism was especially influential in the 17th and 18th centuries."
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Babi,
"The wonder of it is that God is able to use people, despite their weaknesses and flaws."
I love how you expressed this. At our Bible study last night we were discussing this very topic. How the disciples were called to leave everything, family, home, occupation and follow Jesus. There were some that were puzzled as to "why me." God chose a diverse group, some who were of simple living, and not especially well educated, doctors, tax collector, fishermen etc. I believe it was a part of his plan to show the people you did not have to be a scholar or rich man to be a chosen one to lead and spread his word, case in point....Jesus being a carpenter by trade. It's like our gospel a couple of weeks back pointing out we have all been given many gifts, talents and skills and are expected to use them. I loved how a few of our members last night expressed how before they had decided to do a job that was presented to them, they felt a weakness, fear and inablility to say yes. They of course decided to do the job, and find it rewarding and fulfilling, helping others of less fortune or education.
Jean.. I so agree with you that you do not have to follow an organized religion to be moral or ethical. A very good, moral, ethical friend of mine does not believe in God. I tell him although he does not believe in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit or organized religion, I see he lives his life how God has called us to, by loving others, caring for others, giving to the poor, helping his fellowman and being a good father, husband, brother, son and friend. I tease him and say for someone who does not believe in Christ he sure is Christlike. When it comes to politicians and leaders of our country I like knowing if they have a religious belief because I feel it can't help but impact how they will vote on legislation, govern,etc, but as far as them quoting scripture to serve their self purpose and liken themselves to prophets or Biblical characters, I am uncomfortable with it. I think we the people will watch and conclude by the good that they do for the people and the world, as to whether they warrant such comparisons.
While Feiler may not have exact, facts and footnotes to back up some of his conclusions, up to this point I don't see it makes any difference as to what he is trying to acheive with this book. He clearly has enough material to show the corralation of Moses, religion and history being a major part in forming this great nation. He has not in my personal opinion harmed the believability of his work. I like this particular quote in thinking of this book.
"Read not to contradict and conflute; nor to believe and take for granted; not to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider." (Francis Bacon 1561-1626 British Statesman and philosopher)
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Poor Douche, with revolutionary madness scratching out all references to the king in the Book of Common Prayer, and then regretting it after a night in jail, no doubt meditating, as a priest, that the English monarch was (and still is) the Defender of the Faith. What great conscience pangs that must have brought on.
Feiler does make it interesting. Or shall we say that he has increased the area of interest in the American colonists' quest for freedom and independence. The historical picture has gotten bigger for him, just what he says about Philadephia's historic district:
' (it) has grown since I first visited in high school...' p63
Who could possibly have a greater claim as a modern Moses, than Christopher Columbus? Millions of Jews have followed him to the Americas, the promised land. Just look at the figures in Bellamarie's post #105.
And God had a hand in it as well. In my copy of A History of Jews in America, by Howard M. Sachar, I read this on pages 9 and 10:
'It was on April 20, 1492, the day Columbus received authorization to equip his fleet, that King Ferdinand publicly announced the expulsion of the Jews and confiscation of their remaining property. Only a fraction of the booty could be assessed or collected before Columbus departed. By the time of his second journey, however, in 1493, the government had appropriated and auctioned off for the royal treasury important quantities of Jewish real estate and chattels, gold and silver utensils and jewels, Torah mantles and silk table covers. The loot exceeded 6 million maravedis. This time Columbus departed in style.'
For the Jew, God has always worked in mysterious ways. What a succession of Promised Lands in 4000 years! And the troubles getting there!
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but as far as them quoting scripture to serve their self purpose and liken themselves to prophets or Biblical characters, I am uncomfortable with it. I think we the people will watch and conclude by the good that they do for the people and the world, as to whether they warrant such comparisons
Babi - i agree, if for no other reason than i'm a strong first ammendment advocate. I find it ironic that Jimmy CArter who was frequently given the label "born-again Christian" by the press, was careful to separate the political and the religious aspects of his life in public. He seldom, if ever, quoted scripture in his role as president and some who weren't labeled frequently spoke of the Bible or religion. Just an observation. .
Carter may have done more good for the world in his last 30 yrs than any other president we've had.........jean
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Yeah! The library called and my book is in. Unfortunately, so are three others that I had requested, and I am currently reading two, and Amazon is delivering the books I ordered promptly. Why is it always feast or famine???? Since the library books are new, I probably won't be able to renew any of them. I will start America's Prophet as soon as I get home. Am I correct in thinking that you have been discussing chapters 1-3 and next week will be 4 & 5?
I am not sure from your discussions how I will feel about this book, but I'll give it a try.
Sally
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ANNIE - many thanks for inviting me to join this discussion. As I've read through the current posts, I recalled teaching American Citizenship classes years ago in the metropolitan Washington DC area to Russian, Iranian and Turkish Jews - all of whom had immigrated to the USA, and were eager to become citizens. It was soon apparent that in order to bring the class together in understanding the focal points of the study (and stay away from regional differences and misunderstandings), we had to choose something to focus on. ONE big topic about the USA that would start the classes off in the right direction - SURPRISINGLY - turned out to be religion: the three Abrahamic religions and how they (and their adherents) were viewed in the USA. Equally important to the realm of understanding was how the USA was viewed in its young years and the role and responsibilities of our Founding Fathers.
Our classroom was a combination of study hall, library, worship center and political "open mike." It was a great learning opportunity for me - much as the posts I've been reading here tonight - and convinced me AGAIN that one's belief in God INDEED can be shared by and with individuals from vastly different backgrounds. Thoughtful respect for "differences" in culture, worship, practice (or the lack thereof), and politics, as well as combining a little something from each area turned out to be an excellent "tool of understanding."
In a contemporary sense, I've always wondered as I continued to teach international classes at American universities, as well as in China and the Middle East, how someone like Moses would view our contemporary world - especially in North America - and whether the Country that we know, love and respect in our time would be recognizable to our Founding Fathers.
Again, thanks very much for inviting me to participate in this discussion. I'll be checking in periodically as our family prepares for my son's third military deployment to the Middle East and my husband's return from Egypt later this month.
Mahlia
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Mahlia, Welcome, it had to be extremely rewarding to teach American Citizenship classes to the Jewish immigrants. It does not surprise me that religion would be the commonality, considering God led them here and would provide this bridge to help them in becoming a citizen in this "promised land of flowing milk and honey." I find your words of high praise to our group.
Jean, Those were actually my words, and I must say I agree with you pointing out while president, Jimmy Carter "was careful to separate the political and the religious aspects of his life in public." Although he attended church on Sunday which showed he continued to practice his faith while leading our country, which I respected him for. He has not been given a very good legacy as our president due to his failure in freeing the Americans in Teheran, but there is no dispute of his humanitarian/Christian life he leads.
Jonathon, So am I understanding it correctly, that the properties of the Jews were taken from them, auctioned off and then Christopher Columbus sailed in style? But then those were only materialistic things that were replaceable, insignicant in the realm of things, compared to robbing them of their dignity, freedom and lives.
This all has me thinking and wondering about how we are dealing with immigration today. The past and present administraion have been struggling with how to deal with the illegals who now are in the country, and we have rules and requirements in becoming legal citizens. When foreigners flee to the U. S. for a better life, freedom, etc., is this their Exodus? Were there any laws prohibiting entry back in the earliest years while forming America? When Mahlia speaks of teaching American Citizenship classes that is a requirement for legal citizenship, when did that become law? Imagine, Joshua leading thousands of Jews into the promised land, only to be stopped at the gates and denied entry. Guess this is food for thought........
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JEAN, it occurred to me on reading your post, that Hinduism with all
it's many 'gods' is an apt comparison. There is truly only one supreme
being in Hinduism; all the others are simply aspects of that One.
Hinduism recognizes that people cannot grasp the entirety of God, for
one thing. And that they approach God according to their own nature,
understanding, and needs.
So, isn't the presence of many denominations and splinter groups in
Christianity much the same thing?
Ah, I see Bella caught that misquote, so I don't need to. BELLA,
driving out the Jews and confiscating all their property for the crown
was a not uncommon source of revenue for the royal treasuries of Europe in those days. They also made good diversionary targets when the royal house needed a scapegoat for angry citizenry. Yet when not being used for those purposes, they were a major asset, adding to the prosperity of the realm..and the rulers.. where they resided. Being Jewish was never easy.
"Weigh and consider."
I do like that, BELLA.
Thoughtful respect for "differences" That's always the key, isn't it,
Mahlia?
I’m trying to figure out what Thomas Huxley meant by writing that the Bible “has become the national epic of Britain.” I can’t find the source for that quote. (p. 22) I can't think of any way in which the Bible was
Britain' 'national epic'. Can anyone comment on that?
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Aha...I think I found the answer to my question in my post above.....
1917 Restrictions on immigration, including a literacy test, were instated that severely restricted the entry of Jews to the United States.
November 7th, 1919 On the second anniversary of the Russian Revolution, over 10,000 suspected communists and anarchists were arrested in what became known as the Palmer Raids. Palmer and Hoover found no evidence of a proposed revolution but large number of these suspects were held without trial for a long time. The vast majority were eventually released but 248 other people were deported to Russia. This included a large number of Jews including Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman and Mollie Steimer.
1921-1924 The National Origins Quota legislation passes, restricting the number of immigrants allowed into America to no more than two percent of the number of each nationality residing in the U.S. in 1890. Due to the National Origins Quota of 1924 few Eastern European refugees were allowed into the US during World War II.
I am so amazed at how many different nationalities, and the numbers, immigrated to the U.S. I can see why they would have to make requirements and regulate how many they could allow. And to be careful of communists back then and terrorists today who gain entry to harm us. We are the land of the free and want our shores and doors to be open to all, yet there is a danger that can put us in harm's way in doing so. These regulations and requirements may hinder, but I don't ever see them deterring immigration and illegal entry, into our country.
Gosh Babi, you got me searching on that Huxley quote. ???
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Babi,
I’m trying to figure out what Thomas Huxley meant by writing that the Bible “has become the national epic of Britain.” I can’t find the source for that quote. (p. 22) I can't think of any way in which the Bible was
Britain' 'national epic'. Can anyone comment on that?
Maybe this will help:
T. H. Huxley reminds us, writing in the Nineteenth Century, the importance of the Bible to England and English culture,
“And then consider the great historical fact that for three centuries, this Book has been woven into the life of all that is best and noblest in English history; that it has become the national epic of Britain, and is familiar to noble and simple, from John-o 'Groat's Mouse to Land's End, as Dante and Tasso once were to the Italians; that it is written in the noblest and purest English, and abounds in exquisite beauties of mere literary form; and, finally that it forbids the veriest hind who never left his village to be ignorant of the existence of other countries and other civilizations, and of a great past, stretching back to the further limits of the oldest nations in the world. By the study of what other book could children be so much humanized and made to feel that each figure in the vast historical procession fills, like themselves, but a momentary space in the interval between two Eternities; and earns the blessings or the curses of all time, according to the effort to do good and hate evil?”[9]
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/54730/sec_id/54730
There is also this site that lists his works: http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/h#a595
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophettitle.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophetcvr.jpg)
AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann
Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.
When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009
LINKS: Moses on the Web (http://brucefeiler.com/books/americas-prophet/moses-on-the-web/) -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley (http://video.pbs.org/video/1328905759/) -- Top Five Causes of the Civil War (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm) -- Historic Timeline of Slavery and the Underground Railroad (http://www.freedomcenter.org/underground-railroad/timeline/#) -- Bell cast in England and sent to St Paul's after 9/11 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RvpVKx8hQpQ/SMiWml3RlII/AAAAAAAAAXs/KsxmOpcwWvg/s400/sept11+110.JPG)
Starting on Feb 1st, we will read and discuss
Chaps 1,2 &3--1st week
Chaps 4&5--2nd week
Chaps 6&7--3rd week
Chaps 8,9 & 10- Last week
Discussion Leader: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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So glad you could join us, Mahlia was struck for a minute at the concept of your husband's return to Egypt, since we've been concentrating on the em migrating flow from Egypt and other lands of oppression. My thoughts are with your son and his third deployment to the troubled Middle East. Hard for a mama.
Thanks for the timeline of the Jewish immigration into America, Bellamaria. I haven't finished the book yet - have only read the first six chaptin fact - but it strikes me that we are not getting examples of the Exodus comparison from the early Jewish settlers in America as we did from others. Surely they were as familiar with the parallel of oppression and liberation in Exodus. Have I missed something? Perhaps there were so many quotes, it was impossible for Feiler to reference them all? Or do you think he is silent about this for other reasons?
On pg 47 the Independence Hall guide says "....a lot of people today feel that the Enlightenment was antireligious...that people like Paine, B Franklin and others were deists and didn't believe in God." Jean
Thank you for addressing this issue, Jean - I remember reading somewhere in those pages that Jefferson, Franklin - maybe Paine too, were not concerned with the afterlife as many of the strict Bible readers were - but rather with the here and now, especially the system of law that Moses had set up. I need to go back and find the section in which the Mosaic Law and the system of government set up by the Founding Fathers were contrasted - and found to be nearly identical...
Annie, do I hear you saying that Bruce Feiler has shown us a number of Moses figures...freedom fighters- such as Sam Adams - all following the example of Moses in the Exodus and then creation of laws based on responsibility and duty? Can we all agree with that? That Moses was the prototype?
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Oh, very good, BELLA. You found it! I appreciate Mr. Huxley's enthusiasm
for the Bible and it's influence on the British people. I think it is a
misnomer to call it a 'national epic', however, since it is not about
Great Britain.
Bless me, JOAN, how can we possibly complete the discussion of all
this wealth of material this week? I've still got reams of notes, and
here it is Saturday already! Can we sort of flow back and forth on
the various subjects as they crop up from this section and the next?
(I hope that made sense.)
Peter Gomez, preacher, Memorial Church of Harvard University and Professor of Christian Morals. “Success is a very dubious enterprise”. “When they (the children of God) become successful, that’s when the problems begin.” Truer words were never spoken. It happened to the Roman Church and it continues to happen in churches today.
“The biblical mandate is not success, it’s humility.” This flies right in the face of the very popular modern teachings on the ‘victorious’ life. But I think Mr. Gomez has a point. Humility is a powerful keynote
in the teachings of Christ.
Then Feiler says: “If any one of these Moseses succeeded--Bradford, Washington, Lincoln, King---there would be no need for another one.” I don’t agree with that at all. A great leader may succeed in
influencing and directing his own generation and perhaps the next, but the generations that follow will need their own leaders.
Each generation must learn the lessons over again and make it’s choices. For every turning point, new leaders must be there for us.
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Babi: “The biblical mandate is not success, it’s humility.”
Truer words were never spoken, Babi. As Feiler points out, the lesson from Moses is that old saying that our parents must have told us a hundred times.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again.
And having never seen this example of Moses trying and trying again, with so much humility, I now admire his journey to the 'promised land' even more. Teaching the Israelites how they should live in the Promised Land which he would never visit. Wanting them to succeed. What a humble leader!
His story seems so familiar. Preparing them for the trip, he seems more like a mom and a dad advising their children as they mature. I wonder if he urged them to wear clean underwear, just in case, an accident occurs or a battle. Tee hee!
Babi: Each generation must learn the lessons over again and make it’s choices. For every turning point, new leaders must be there for us.
That is so true.
And hasn't each generation been sent a "Moses" over the years? MLK stands out in our minds but even JFK tried to put pride back into our country's people by urging them to give back plus his brother, RFK, whom I suppose we might call JFK's "Joshua" had plans for us. Too sad what happened to those brothers who cared so much about this 'promised land'.
Mahlia,
So glad you are joining us and, at the same time, trying to help Mamoud who is back in Egypt with his family. I just heard that they may have found the crypt of Antony and Cleopatra in Egypt. And that she was the last Pharoah. That's new to me who hasn't studied Egypt's ancient history much.
Bellemere,
Thanks for the links. Very timely!
JoanP,
As Babi, says, there is a lot here in these three brief chapters but for each happening or person that Feiler mentions, he will give us a chapter later in the book.
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Babi, I don't agree with this either.... I don't necessarily see leaders, prophets, people as succeeding when they are able to bring about change for the good of the world, and then it not being necessary for anyone else. I see, that we MUST, at all times make continuous efforts to bring about change. When Lincolm emancipated the slaves, that was not the end, we then needed their civil rights to be enacted, which JFK and LBJ were able to acheive. We then needed MLK to come and bring about togetherness without violence with his Million Man March. Yet we still have a very long way to go for the African-Americans, Jews, and other races to be accepted and acknowledged, the same as the white race. It is, and always will be, an ongoing work in progress to live in harmony together, which means we will always need a Moses, Lincoln, JFK, LBJ, MLK Jr., Harriet Tubman, Hillary Clinton, Sara Palin, etc., to lead us to the next generation of acceptance, equallity and human justice, with the belief God does indeed want nothing but the very best for us.
I took issue with this and found Gomes a bit cynical. pg. 3 "And that may be the thing he shared most with Moses," Gomes continued. "I think Moses, too, can be described as clinically depressed at the end. I've done all this, God, and you do this to me! There's a similar sense of not being rewarded. And yet, you bargain for that. You don't now God's will. You really don't. If there is any lesson to be learned, it is a certain modesty in the face of opportunity. The biblical mandate is not success, it's humility. You're not God. You're not supposed to be too fat and happy." "But that's not the lesson most Americans take from the Bible." "No, they take American exceptionalism..."
In my opinion, I did not feel Moses was clinically depressed, nor looking for a reward in the end. Yes, he hoped to enter the promised land with the Israelites, but I feel his ultimate reward was him knowing he was God's chosen one, and would have eternity with God. As far as the "mandate being humility," I feel we are taught to be humble, but I don't agree with "not supposed to be too fat and happy." I believe God truly wants us to have all the happiness possible. We as humans fail to acheive it by not following "His" plan and going off on our own plan. We do know God, and we do know his will, he has made it clear to us, his will is for us to love him with all our hearts and to love one another. To follow his commandents and to have faith in believing God will always watch over his people and keep His promise.
To say "MOST" Americans take exceptionalism from the Bible is a bit contrite and it's Gomes's, personal opinion. Here, Gomes has no way of knowing most Americans. He really doesn't.
Feiler has alot of facts and opinions from many people in this book. This is where, from my earlier quote, I remind myself to "weigh and consider."
Annie, Indeed, tee hee. That was quite cute.
More later, got to run, going to see St. Ursula Academy's play, Jesus Christ Superstar!
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Ah, Bellamarie,
"Jesus Christ, Superstar" has some gorgeous and powerful music in it. Do enjoy!
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I find the dichotomy between the emphasis, respect, reverence for the Old Testament and the Hebrew language and Hebrew history and the anti-semitism very interesting. The quote from the president of Harvard saying "The Jewish gov't (the 10 commandments and the 613 mandates) was the perfect republic," set up along side of the 2% quota for Jews that Harvard had in place until the 1970's or 80's is mind-boggling. Of course, harvard was not the only university to have quotas, but that comes in the next chapter.
Does any one have enough psychology education to explain that dichotomy, i just don't get it? We need Robbie..........teehee................
How do you have reverence for a culture and banish the people of the culture? ................... jean
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"Jesus Christ, Superstar" How about Jesus Christ, the latter-day Moses? When it comes to freedom and exodus, how about his powerful gospel by which one leaves the old self behind? For his co-religionists Jesus was an aberration in wanting to evade the laws they felt comfortable with, but millions have and do feel liberated by Jesus, and feel themselves being led to the ultimate Promised Land, The Kingdom of God. Here and now. Perhaps they're mistaken. But it could also be said that Moses led his people up the garden path.
The Israelites were prospering in Egypt. Feiler states that Egypt was the best place to be. Perhaps too good. Perhaps that's why God wanted them out of there. Strange that he found a servant in Moses, on the lamb in the desert, after committing homicide in Egypt, 40 years earlier. God came to Moses. Not in the still, small voice reserved for the humble, but in an awesome voice from the burning bush. And the rest is history. A national epic for the British, and for everyone else bitten by the bible bug.
How could anyone who had such rapport with God have suffered from clinical depression. On the contrary. He found such favor with God, that God himself dismissed the Angel of Death at Moses' passing, and withdrew his life with His holy kiss. Look for Moses in heaven still hobnobbing with God about torah. Like with Jesus, Moses would likely ask, why do you look for me in a sepulchre?
Isn't Feiler finding a bible epic in America? This is a provocative book.
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Jean, the folks at Harvard, and throughout Christendom were waiting for the conversion of the Jews.
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You pose an interesting question, Jean and one that surely our Robbie could explain. Doesn't make sense does it? A quota?? I didn't know about that. Were the Harvard powers that be fearful of the possible power that the Jews could acquire if only they had a degree! Yeah, right!! As if there aren't many other excellent colleges around this country. Who owns the diamond and gem industry in the USA? HMMMMM!
Jonathon
The garden path??? I love it! Is that where Moses was headed for when he was removed from the leadership of the Israelites?
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INdeed, yes, ANNIE. MLK, JFK, RFK...all inspiring, far-sighted leaders.
Perhaps, in the sense that each generations leaders take up the task
anew, they are all Joshuas in the sense that Pres. Obama spoke of.
Glad to hear that this wealth of material in the first three chapters
will be discussed further later in the book. That takes some of the
pressure off, thankfully.
I agree, BELLA. Moses was certainly saddened to learn that he would not
cross over into the promised land, but not depressed. People with clinical
depression certainly don't have the energy or ambition to make sure a
nation of people are prepared and ready to go on without them.
As for his other statement, I think the key word is "too". People who
are 'too' fat and happy tend to be complacent and self-satisfied, I
think. They don't recognize, or ignore, changes that need to made in
the world about them.
JEAN, perhaps reverance for the past casts a romantic glow one can enjoy, while the present is too gritty and troublesome? So much easier to have as little as possible to do with it.
JONATHAN, I am puzzled as to what you mean saying the Israelites were
prospering in Egypt. By the time of the Exodus, they were slaves! Sure,
they were being fed. Got to feed the slaves if you want them to work.
But according to the scriptures, which I can see you respect, they were
crying out in their pain and distress.
I wondered about Ezra Stiles, and who the ‘us’ was of whom he said that God “is giving this land to us who in virtue of the ancient covenant are the Seed of Abraham”. By my understanding, the ‘ancient covenant’ was made with the Hebrew people, and the ‘seed of Abraham’ are their descendents. I found this site, and I can see how closely Stiles has identified with the Hebrew heritage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Stiles
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Jonathon, I certainly did not agree with, "Feiler states that Egypt was the best place to be. Perhaps too good. Perhaps that's why God wanted them out of there."
The Israelites were treated so poorly, as we all know, they were slaves, so how on earth could Feiler make such a statement, so as to prove his point, that God wants to deny his people of too much goodness and happiness? If we were to agree with Feiler's opinion here, then I suppose we would have to say the black slaves that were being mistreated in the south were happy to be there because it was "the best place for them to be." Where is the logic in this? You mention, "just maybe Moses was leading them up the garden path." Am I to understand you are implying God used Moses to lead his people out of a place that was good, to a place that was not? I just don't know how to respond to a thinking such as this. So were the Jews also in a better place being persecuted and killed? It seems Gomes, Fieler nor you, don't believe God wanted the best for his people, and question his choice or rather choosing Moses to be the one to lead, so you make the argument, they were in a better place, then let's use the events of slavery and mistreatment in American history to disprove your theory, because by all accord, if your belief in Egypt being the best place for slaves to be, then it would have to hold true for other historical places that enslaved any race or religious group.
Enslavement of any kind no matter where it is taking place, in the royal land of Rome, Egypt, Germany, Poland, Russia, the United States, etc., should ever be considered "a great place to be." Forgive me if I have misunderstood your tone, but I sense you are a person who has little use for the Bible and has not been "bitten by the Bible bug," as you state. I can respect the fact not all people beleive in the stories and scripture of the Bible, but for you Gomes, or Feiler to try to say God did not have the goodwill and love of his people in mind when leading them out of slavery, seems a bit provocative, if you don't mind my using your word, with all due respect.
Annie, Yes, indeed there was great music in Jesus Christ Superstar! I was in awe of how talented the high school students were in bringing scripture to life with their amazing acting and singing. BRAVO!! to St. Ursula Academy and all surrounding schools, public and parochial, who participated.
I'm off to read the next chapters of what is apperaring to be a book of facts and fiction. ::)
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Are we at page 86 yet? I don't have my book any more, altho i went back on the "hold" list and will get it back in abut 10 days.
I found the info on the Masons very interesting, but i'll wait to hear from you if we are there yet................
BTW Annie - all the Ivy League colleges except for U of Penn - founded by Ben Franklin - had quotas for Jews thru the 19th and 20th centuries, even Penn may have put them into effect some decades after it's inception..................
thanks for all your comments about that issue...............jean
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Can we please take the rest of the pages up to pg 72 and discuss the Liberty bell chapter tonight and tomorrow? Lots of history there that I didn't know. How about the rest of you?
Jean that would take us to Chap IV-A Moses For America.
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Jean, I too am interested in the Masons. (Is there a difference between Masons and Freemasons?) I knew that G. Washington and other FF were Masons, but didn't exactly know what that meant. I learned some things I didn't know from Feiler's chapter on them.
I am somewhat confused that the same colleges that had a quota on Jewish students had a Hebrew language requirement for all students. My husband explained that Hebrew was a classical language required along with Latin and Greek for graduation. Still, I find it ironic that the language was required, and the Jews were restricted.
Oops - Annie, we were posting together. Thanks for clarifying where we are now. Is it possible to put the discussion schedule in the header - dates and chapters? Or would you rather not?
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In response to Moses being a murderer an unpardonable sin, I thought this site was very helpful in explaining why Moses would not have been seen as a murderer.
Here is just a small excerpt.
"The rules relating to the use of deadly force to save a third party from death or serious injury bear an obvious relation to the doctrines of self-defense. It is generally held...that homicide is excused when the actor reasonably believed the deceased to be the aggressor and the killing to be necessary to save the third party's life...it is generally held...that one may kill to prevent commission of a violent felony when he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is necessary.19
Now the Egyptians...entertained a hatred to him, and were very eager in compassing their designs against him, as suspecting that he would take occasion, from his good success to raise a sedition, and bring innovations into Egypt; and told the king he ought to be slain. The king had also some intentions of himself to the same purpose, and...being instigated by the sacred scribes, he was ready to undertake to kill Moses; but when he had learned beforehand what plots there were against him he went away privately; and because the public roads were watched, he took his flight through the deserts, and where his enemies could not suspect he would travel...22
From the above it is apparent that for Moses' entire life in the Egyptian court he had to deal with government groups that wanted him dead. He had good reason to be concerned that his defense of his Hebrew brother might be observed and reported. Such a report would have provided an excuse to have him killed.
Conclusion
The Bible does not call Moses a murderer nor does it anywhere condemn his action in killing the Egyptian. In the eyes of God, and according to the law of most, if not all, human societies, this killing was excusable homicide, not murder.
The critics are in error in their suppositions that all killings are murder, that every murder, regardless of circumstances, is viewed by the LDS as an unpardonable sin, and that Moses was a murderer. The presence of Moses on the mount of transfiguration is consistent with both the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants.
http://www.shields-research.org/42_Questions/ques10.htm
Okay...now on to the Liberty bell.
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BELLA, I am surprised to read all that about Moses in Egypt. So far as
I know, there is no record extant concerning Moses during that time of
his life. We know only that he was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter, and
would have been raised as a prince of the royal house. We can assume
from that he would have been familiar the laws and government of Egypt.
But most of the quote from that site seems to be pure fiction.
Continuing on towards p. 72, as requested:
Samuel Langdon, President of Harvard in 1775, said that the form of government handed down by God to Moses “was a perfect republic”. I beg to differ. It was a theocracy. The only law was that compiled by Moses, and the final authority of the nation was the high priest. The relationship between the various tribes was that of family, and the only one who could call them all together for a common purpose was either the high priest, or a prophet raised up by God for a specific purpose.
Definitions of republic (n)
..political system with elected representatives: a political system or form of government in which people elect representatives to exercise power for them
..state with elected representatives: a country or other political unit whose government or political system is that of a republic
...unit within larger country: a constituent political and territorial unit of a national federation or union
p.59 Tim Safford speaking again ( I really like this man) “If you do not have a narrative larger than the world gives you, you’re just going to get sucked up by the world.”
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Babi,
I don't know where the idea of a republic came from in this reference. I always thought that we were a republic due to our elections of our leaders.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNpkQhaXnC0&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNpkQhaXnC0&NR=1)
THIS MUSIC IS "THE LIBERTY BELL" march by Sousa and is the theme song for the Monty Python Show.
Originally it was written for an opera that Sousa never finished.
"Proclaim liberty thro' all the Land to All the Inhabitants Thereof"
And although this might have been their intention, the fathers of the Constitution protected the ownership of slaves.
A link to what Jefferson wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal#Slavery_and_the_phrase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal#Slavery_and_the_phrase)
BG on asking his tour guide about "why the bell came to have such meaning." She replied, "It's hard to get your head around a building,: she said. "But the bell is timeless, in its shape, its function. It's easier to understand on and emotional level."
As we go ahead in the story of the religious meanings and quotes from the Bible, we find that for many, the Bible was the only book in their households and therefore they understood when it was referenced and quoted. "The language of religion is so ingrained in their culture in the forms of the stories, the aphorisms, the proverbs, and the the characters, and this religious language is readily adopted as the language of liberty. They're searching for the historical precedent for their own actions, and they're finding it in religious rhetoric because everyone understood and could relate to that."
A link to "is" to "ought"--interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem)
Later in our history, abolitionists pointed out that the bell's inscription meant for all men. By emphasizing the bell they hoped to deflect attention away from the Constitution that had enshrined slavery into law. As the bell became so popular, it began to travel across the U.S. and made journeys by rail to 376 stops in 30 states including the world's fairs. When, in 1976, a journey was made by the Declaration of Independence, was the "Liberty Bell" along for the ride?
And on inquiring of 'google' I found that it wasn't but it was placed across the street from its home base on a special display. So, the bell we saw in '76 was a copy?
Here's a fun link to the trip that the bell took across the US in 1915. Take a look at the photo essay of its travel. And the "Triviata"! Very well done.
http://www.ushistory.org/libertyBell/essay/1915.htm (http://www.ushistory.org/libertyBell/essay/1915.htm)
What amazes me is the number of people who came to see it and children's clothing ie. girls' flag dresses and boys flag pants. And were there electric sewing machines in the home by then? Probably treadle machines but certainly adequate for the task.
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Oh! Annie! - thanks for The Liberty Bell March, it's one of my favorite Sousa tunes, so much energy. I can just see The Music Man strutting and prancing to it as he did to 76 Trombones..................i can't NOT tap my feet to that music........and don't understand people who can sit still to such rythmns.....................
I'll be back..........jean
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Oh, Jean, don't miss the Liberty Bell Timeline, plus the trip in 1915 and the Triviata. It makes me feel so patriotic.
I am a big Sousa fan also. Do you remember the movie of his life with Clifton Webb as Sousa.
My BIL, a man with his own band and many music stores here in Columbus, OH, plus a friend of his,also in the music business, proposed that "Stars & Stripes Forever" be named our national march. They went to Congress to request this but I don't remember the outcome. I will go question 'google'. And 'google' answers with a resounding "YES" in 1987.
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Quote from Bellamarie's post
'Moses killed the Egyptian before he had received the knowledge of the truth on Mount Sinai. Therefore, even if his action in killing the Egyptian was murder, according to the Scriptures, Moses would not have committed the unpardonable sin.'
A lot of interesting fact and speculation in that link, especially about the nature of Moses' act in killing the Egyptian. The historical information in the Bible is so meager regarding the events leading up to the Exodus that the best and brightest minds have tried filling in the details. As for example, from the same link:
'Josephus states:
One of those sacred scribes...told the king, that about this time there would be a child born to the Israelites, who, if he were reared, would bring the Egyptian dominion low, and would raise the Israelites... . Which thing was so feared by the king, that...he commanded that they should cast every male child, which was born to the Israelites, into the river, and destroy it...'
When I suggested that the Israelites had prospered in Egypt, I'm taking into account the legends that they had increased and multiplied in numbers which had become a threat to the state. Egypt was, as Feiler says, the best place in the world, the richest, the most sophisticated civilization of the times. A revolution from within might have made it the Promised Land. The rich Nile. It didn't happen. The Hebrew people for whatever reason did not take things into their own hands, and allowed themselves to be seen as a nation of slaves, while enjoying the fleshpots of Egypt. The Israelites did not want to leave. Pharaoh found them useful. God, fearing they would lose their souls, wanted them out. Obviously His people were wanting a leader, and God remembered the hothead Moses and went looking for him. In the ensuing events what did Moses actually do other than carry God's threats to Pharaoh?
I'm not being irreverant in trying to figure out what actually happened in this bit of history. Issues and characters all seem a bit nebulous. The Hebrew people in Egypt weren't slaves. Just subject to conscript labor. It's interesting that Feiler is finding an historical replay in American history. The American colonists weren't trying to extricate themselves from a state of slavery. Their freedom wasn't a contest with the King. It was all about taxes and tea and political representation. And mercantile laws. For example, American merchants had probably found that they could get some things more cheaply from China.
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Babi, The purpose for the link was to show Moses was not considered a murderer, an unpardonable sin, anywhere in the Bible. He killed in defense, to save another.
Jonathon, Interesting how you refer to Moses as a "hothead" when I believe he was a man of great patience, to lead thousands of grumbling Israelites through the conditions they endured. ;)
I got a kick out of how many times it took them to recast the Liberty bell, and still it has a crack in it. Isn't that in and of itself a symbol of government, and life? It shows no matter how many times we attempt at perfection, it is not within our reach. The crack shows imperfections do not necessarily deter us from attempting a task, yet being humble when we realize there are imperfections, then a final acceptance. Much like Moses, the founding fathers, Israelites, our melting pot of Americans, Mosaic law and our own Constitution, none were/are perfect but just like the Liberty Bell, together these all stand for freedom.
Annie, Thanks for the links...love them!
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JoanP,
I will ask the techies to place our schedule up above. I thought it was already there. Sorry about that.
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Well, its the 9th and we are onto another chapter but I have question for Jonathon.
If the Jews left, after enjoying the flesh pots of Egypt, why are they back in Egypt with Joseph the prime minister of Egypt later in this story? Has this been an ongoing war?
And for a deist, Washington sure speaks like a minister when he's giving a speech, giving all credit and honor to his God(Providence). I think I will read part of one of those biographies that Ella gave us titles to earlier and see what the historians have to say about the faiths of our founders.
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Annie, I am so confused, because Feiler seems to contradict himself. He states most of the founding fathers were not religious, yet then he shows how they used so much scripture and Moses etc. Momma mia, I am getting a bit frustrated.
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But isn't that always what experienced politicians do - in any time period or any location in the world? They use whatever will work in their community, political party or country. In this case - religious beliefs - which may or may not be the foundation for the words spoken in political session or to convince communities or fellow politicians to one's way of thinking. A "spiritual outlook" from a politician may be appealing to some, revolting to others. A dedication to "following one's faith and Scriptural guidance" may place a politician in the forefront, while a fellow politician who does NOT seem to be so "spiritually inclined," may be dismissed as a "non-believer."
As a former resident of the metropolitan Washington DC area (which includes numerous houses of worship of several faiths), I have witnessed this first hand between elected officials and their constituencies.
Perhaps the Founding Fathers believed - truly believed - that their constituents would adhere to their recommendations more quickly if they were wrapped in "Scriptural garb." Have you ever heard a politician speak about an issue and you knew instantly that he/she was outright lying or their comments simply did NOT make any sense? But when they reference religious support (from almost any faith I can think of), folks of the same (or similar) faith tend to listen more readily. In Washington it's called "excellent PR" or "working the crowd" and perhaps there was a similar thought pattern used by the Founding Fathers.
Mahlia
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OH, Persian,
That does present quite mental picture of our founding fathers! I love it. G.W. and Adams and even B.F., using religious rhetoric, while working the crowd.
I have finally taken the time to read the history of Joseph and his being taken to Egypt by the Ishmaelites after he was sold to them by his own brothers. I know the story but just didn't realize that he was in Egypt before Moses led the Israelites to the promised land.
We are snowed in again in Ohio and the pundits are predicting 12 inches or more will fall before tomorrow morning.
Yes, JoanP,
Moses as a prototype works for me.
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We are a republic because of our elected representatives, ANNIE. Which
why I took exception to Samuel Langdon's assertion that the 'form of
government' handed down by God to Moses was 'a perfect republic'. It
wasn't,..by any of the above definitions.
The story of Archbishop Ndungame really moved me. For the first time, I got a sense of what the Liberty Bell really represents, even today. Like
Mandela, he was a prisoner on Robben Island and he explained what the
Liberty Bell meant to him. The guide on the Liberty Bell tour wasn't sure
if what Ndungame said was true, but the Archbishop said, "On Robben
Island, we always dreamed it was true".
The reference to the fleshpots of Egypt is not from an earlier period.
During the years in the wilderness the Hebrews were often hungry, and
looked back with longing to their well-fed, if unhappy, latter days in
Egypt.
We have a comment that “The Constitutional Convention would play the part of Mount Sinai--and Washington would be Moses. This is apparently based on a bit of oratory by a Boston preacher that
Moses came down from Sinai with “the tables of the Hebrew constitution in his hand!”
Given the legal definition of a constitution, the tablets of the Ten
Commandments were not a constitution. (The bold emphasis is mine.)
The fundamental law, written or unwritten, that establishes the character of a government by defining the basic principles to which a society must conform; by describing the organization of the government, the regulation, distribution, and limitations on the functions of different government departments; and by prescribing the extent and manner of the exercise of its sovereign powers.[/b]
The analogy of the Constitutional Convention with Mount Sinai just doesn’t work. Some more of the political rhetoric Persian describes, no doubt.
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My education on the founding fathers led me to believe that many of them had some religious beliefs, but did not belong to any "organized religion." I think that may be what BF meant when he first said they were not "religious." Ben Franklin was known to attend many church services in many different churches in Phila including Catholic and Jewish services. but he was not a member of any of those churches.
Being deists, they believed in a supreme being, but not in the Judeo-Christian idea that God is controlling every aspect of everyday life, but there is a spectrum of deism thru this group, i believe, as there is in every religion and w/in every denomination of protestants. Therefore, they used the term "Providence, " "creator" etc. and could use scripture to flush out what they were saying because they knew people understood the "stories" of the Bible, or they used the scriptures as philosophy, or examples, again because people would know what they were talking about..................it makes sense to me in that light.........jean
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Mahlia,
Perhaps the Founding Fathers believed - truly believed - that their constituents would adhere to their recommendations more quickly if they were wrapped in "Scriptural garb." Have you ever heard a politician speak about an issue and you knew instantly that he/she was outright lying or their comments simply did NOT make any sense? But when they reference religious support (from almost any faith I can think of), folks of the same (or similar) faith tend to listen more readily. In Washington it's called "excellent PR" or "working the crowd" and perhaps there was a similar thought pattern used by the Founding Fathers.
Yes indeed, this present president followed a church for 20 years that is in direct conflict to his words he uses, and because his Reverend was revealed to have great distain and hatred for white America, he quit the church he believed in and attended for twenty years. Now, he attends no church. I do believe many politicians do this, and there really is no way of knowing what they truly do or don't believe in, as far as their faith is concerned. Politicians go for what is closest to the American people's heart, their faith and family. This president mocked Americans for clinging to their Bibles, but then stands up and uses scipture to plead to these same Americans to accept his policies. Oh Mahlia, your post had incredible insight.
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Well, I managed to read of Joseph's takeover of Egypt in my bible. Although they were slaves, the Jews were living pretty well. Especially after Jacob's return with his 70 family members plus livestock, living in ?????.
The reason I came in now is that I am watching National Geographic's "The Real George Washington" who is not the GW we thought he was. I will look and see if its going to be repeated or if its an older program, maybe our libraries will have it. You won't believe this historians' story of our first president.
Here's a link to the free movie, when they have one available to show you.
http://www.watch-movies-online.tv/movies/the_real_george_washington/ (http://www.watch-movies-online.tv/movies/the_real_george_washington/)
And here's the ad for it.
He's America's most famous founding father, but much of his life remains a mystery. In this documentary from National Geographic, scientists and historians use the latest technology to reveal the true face of George Washington--both literally and figuratively. Uncovering Washington's history of espionage and slavery, as well as examining the clues held in his childhood home, act as buildup to the film's fascinating recreation of Washington's likely face with forensic artists.
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I can understand that Position, JEAN. While I am a Christian, I find
I cannot agree with all the doctrines that have developed over the
years, nor with some of the teachings that flare into popularity from
time to time. Paradoxically, I have noted that some very 'religious'
people can be more judgmental than Christ-like.
I have that copy of National Geographic, ANNIE, but I haven't gotten
to the George Washington article yet. I will read it, of course, but I
always weigh such articles carefully. It is so easy to slant a topic to
get a result that will sell better.
The chapter on the Masons re-enactment of Washington' s inauguration
appears to me 'slanted'. Obviously, they wish to exalt the role of Masonry in their celebration. And there is no question a number of our
founding fathers were Masons.
There is an attempt to find something of significance in the placement of Washington's hand in the Bible. The suggested 'meanings' require a stretch of the imagination, IMO.
The story of the Mason's Bible itself, though, was most interesting and
entirely new to me. Considering how often it was used historically and
the care taken of it, I was astonished that I had never heard of it before.
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I felt the chapter on Washington's inaugural gave far too much attention to the Masons. I made so many side notes saying, (one man's opinion, or huh?) I feel so far, this book has many historical facts be it American history or Biblical history, but I have seen much "slanting" as Babi points out, to prove Feiler's own personal views, especially with who he has chosen to be his people of reference. Had he chose others, I am for certain we would be seeing something different. I'm in it more for the history rather than the analogies between Moses and the American story at this point, because I see too many contradictions.
I was just a bit surprised that Feiler would be allowed to crash the ceremony, after not granted a reply or an invitation, then to be spotted at the end and welcomed by the Masons to a lunch almost celebratory in his honor. A bit odd for me, considering he admits he crashed the ceremony. This sounds just a tad self indignant, pg. 86 "Had I really penetrated the inner sanctum of America's Most Secretive Society..." Forgive me for sounding cynical, but the Masons sound more like a cult to me. pg. 87 I asked Savini if he thought Masonry was a religion. "I would call it a catalyst for religion. It's a belief system that focuses individually on principles and patterns of living that Masonry believes are fulfilling and lead to a better society. And yet it doesn't fill in the details. Masonry tells you to worship a Supreme Being, but it doesn't ask you what you call that being. It reveres what it calls the Volume of Sacred Law but it doesn't tell you what that volume should be."
This sure leaves you open to all kind of speculations. And then on pg. 88 "Masonry became a gentleman's club, a civic-promtion institution, and a pan-religious body all in one."
Again....I remind myself...weigh and consider.
Annie, Thank you for the link. I am going to check it out. Washington much like many presidents and politicians did much for the good of the country, and much about their lives were withheld to perserve their character for honoring them. I would never deny any person be it political or biblical the recognition for their service, although I do find it interesting to get to know more about the person, then media presents to us for what ever their agendas may be. Afterall, everyone does have some agenda, we just don't always know what it may be. ;)
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Playing catch up today - keeping ahead of this monumental snow storm is more work - and yet paralyzing at the same time. Poor dog - doesn't understand why we can't walk her today - Bruce shovelled a path from the back door, down the steps and into the azalea bushes, weighed down under what I think is now three feet of snow. She can crawl under there to relieve herself - but is not a happy camper. Is sitting here looking at me accusingly for not picking up her leash and heading out.
Babi - the "Mason Bible" confused me too. I read what BF had to say about it very closely with curiosity. He writes the it is "nondenominational." What exactly does this mean to you? He writes that it is a King James - printed in London in 1767. Earlier in the book BF writes that George W. was a lukewarm Episcopalian - but he did read his Bible. As you all have noticed, this was not unusual at the time. These people were less concerned with the afterlife - more concerned with the importance of the here and now. The passages of the Bible that dealt with responsibility, duty, honor were of more importance than one's personal salvation in an afterlife.
Feiler points out that it would not have been a coincidence that GW took his oath of office with his hand resting on that passage from Genesis. Amazing that Bible still exists, isn't it? -with the page marked by a Jacob Morton in 1787 where Washington's hand had rested as he took the oath. Do you think this Bible has been opened to this marked page as future presidents took the oath? I think I'm asking - Is Washington's choice, of this passage, this call to unity, still relevant today ?
"We may have fought amongst ourselves in the past, but now we stand, removed from our father and cut off from our father land, and we must work together."
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Bella, we've been posting together. Ann, I am off to read those links now -thank you! I agree, GW is a mysterious figure. I've a friend who has worked at Mt. Vernon for many years - and studied much of what is known about him. Maybe she can help demystify him for us.
The Masons... I'd like to know more about them - the Masons of today. I've some notes somewhere. Will bring them in to help us as we "weigh and consider."
ps Did you find yourself wondering whether the display case holding the Mason Bible in Federal Hall was actually destroyed on 9/11? If so, then that janitor was actually the "savior" of that bit of history as Feiler describes him...
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Before I forget -
I won't be singing these hymns (two of my favorites} without thinking of Moses and this book - thanks, Bruce!
Here I am Lord *words and music) (http://my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis2/here.html)
Words and Music by Daniel L Schutte
© 1981
Genesis 46:2
"And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night,
and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I."
And this one -
On Eagles' Wings*words and music) (http://my.homewithgod.com/heavenlymidis2/eaglewings.html)
Words and music by Michael Joncas - See refrain:
Isaiah 40:31
"But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run,
and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint."
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JoanP, Oh my goodness two of my favorite all time hymns we sing in church. It's interesting how these words have an impact, when so many times before we sang them and would not have thought as you mention they will effect you after reading this book.
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Mine too, Belle. I love these hymns. They say so much!
And JoanP,
You have connected these hymns to the books of Moses?? A genius, you are!
Here's picture of the bell at St Paul's Chapel bell. This bell was sent to St Paul's to commemorate 9/11 by the mayor of London. It was cast by the same people who made Big Ben and the Liberty Bell. Mary and I spent half a day at the chapel reading and meditating on the miracle of this small edifice, oldest public building, still in use in NYC.
Well, that doesn't work. I give up for the time being.
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BELLA, Feiler also reports the views of a Masonic leader he interviewed
who gives a differing view of the Masonic influence. I think Mr. Savini
(historian of comparative religion and a mason) has a more realistic
appraisal of Masonry’s influence. “I think it fits into the narrative of
America, but I don’t think it shaped that agenda. To give it that much
purpose is to assume too much about it.” Savini points out that while a
good number of the revolutionaries were Masons, so were many Loyalists. “Just because some of our ideas correlate with the Revolution doesn’t mean there’s causality.”
My reference to 'slanting' was in re the Masonic celebration of that
first inauguration. Since it was a Masonic celebration, I suppose it is
only natural that it would have been 'slanted' to emphasize their role.
It does seem to me that Feiler is trying to present opposing opinions
on different topics, though he does consider Moses to be a dominant
influence. (I don't think he was 'allowed' to crash the ceremony. He
just wasn't noticed, slipping in at the rear. The presence of a stranger
wasn't noted until after the ceremony. Hey, aggressive reporters do it
all the time.)
PAT, re. the choice of the Mason’s Bible? Washington was familiar with it
as head of the local Masons, and as a shrewd diplomat, using it avoided
favoring one church over another by using one of their Bibles. In that
sense, the Mason's Bible was non-denominational.
I was astonished to learn how important and carefully guarded that
Bible is. A part of so many ceremonial occasions, and I had never heard
of it. I'm finding so much that I never knew before! This book would be
worth reading for that alone.
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I feel that way too, Babi. I looked up Federal Hall and 9/11 - it seems that display case holding the Mason Bible was not destroyed on that dreadful day - but a wall of the building itself was badly cracked, requiring extensive repairs.
As I type this, I'm listing to the "Liberty Bell March" - thanks for that link, Ann! When I first read the inscription on the bell - "Proclaim liberty thro' all the Land to All the Inhabitants Thereof" I had no idea it was a Biblical quote - just an apropos quote to put on a bell to proclaim liberty. Thought that BF was stretching the meaning of the quote to fit his Moses theme. Then I saw the source - Leviticus XXV.10 Feiler writes this quote is from "the least loved book of the five books of Moses." Because it is all about laws, rites, ceremonies? To me, the importance of this book - is that is contains the Golden Rule - love your neighbors as yourself."I would think that these would be the words that drew George Washington to the selection of this page.
Do you remember that Feiler wrote that Leviticus refers to the Levites - as "the tribe of Moses' mother?" I wonder why. It was my understanding that Moses was "begat" by a man from the house of Levi. But nursed and brought up by his own mother. Maybe Feiler wrote this because it was from Moses' mother that he learned of his tribe's background.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophettitle.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/amerprophet/americasprophetcvr.jpg)
AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann
Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.
When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009
LINKS: Moses on the Web (http://brucefeiler.com/books/americas-prophet/moses-on-the-web/) -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley (http://video.pbs.org/video/1328905759/) -- Top Five Causes of the Civil War (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm) -- Historic Timeline of Slavery and the Underground Railroad (http://www.freedomcenter.org/underground-railroad/timeline/#) -- Bell cast in England and sent to St Paul's after 9/11 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RvpVKx8hQpQ/SMiWml3RlII/AAAAAAAAAXs/KsxmOpcwWvg/s400/sept11+110.JPG)
Starting on Feb 1st, we will read and discuss
Chaps 1,2 &3--1st week
Chaps 4&5--2nd week
Chaps 6&7--3rd week
Chaps 8,9 & 10- Last week
Discussion Leader: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
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Back to the Masons. The first thing I think when I think Masons is - a secret society. Or perhaps, an exclusive society. And then I think of it as a fraternity - dedicated to civil causes. I don't think of them as Biblical scholars - or readers. I understand that their roots go back to Medieval times, but don't understand why the exclusivity.
Feiler writes that Masonry is a belief system focusing on individual principals and a pattern of living that led to a better society. Seems to me that the more admitted into such a club, the better for society. Why limit participation?
My husband tells me that his father was a Mason - though my husband didn't know it until his dad's funeral. Bruce was 23. He was surpiised when a good number of Masons showed up for the funeral and put something on his coffin. They announced his father was a 32nd degree Mason. He knew his dad used to go off to meetings - he was a member of the Lions' Club and other clubs in the community - but it wasn't until his father's death that he learned that his father was a Mason - it was that secret.
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JoanP,
The only things I know about the Masons is what Dan Brown tells me! Tee hee!
I like the definition of Masonry that BF quotes Tom Savini as saying:
"I would call it a catalyst for religion. It's a belief system that focuses individuals on principles and patterns of living that Masonry believes are fulfilling and lead to a better society. And yet it doesn't fill in the details. Masonry tells you to worship a Supreme Being, but it doesn't ask you what you call that being. It reveres what it calls the Volume of Sacred Law but it doesn't tell you what that volume should be."
From the little bit that's here about Masonry, how it was open to all not just the elite, it becomes available to anyone man who wants to join it. And now the middle class has their own fraternity sans a college degree.
And the story about the murder Hiram Abiff, 'master workman' of the temple. Machenah! One word meaning "Thanks be to God, our Master has got a Mossy House!" Do we all buy this?? Well, it doesn't matter really. It seems good for all to have something to join and honor as their code of living. And, the belief system certainly is not harmful. So, men, of all backgrounds and religions can come together and claim their freedom and honor their responsibilities.
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We keep referring to our author as BF. And I kept wondering why we were giving Ben Franklin all the credit for his writing. Biiiiiiiiing! Wake up, Annie!
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No doubt I am being too critical of Feiler when I say that he should have stuck to biblical history and kept shy of American history. He keeps stretching his premise that Moses was inspirational to the founding of America, its founding fathers, etc. And pages of Masonic history! All because Washington had to substitute a Masonic bible at his swearing in as President. And why a bible is necessary? I believe Feiler tells us that GW is following the titled Kings and Queens of England, while at the same time he is putting his head in a possible noose to escape England's tyranny!
Ironic! We love England, its grandeur, its literature, its empire, its endless kings and queens, their stories! But we don't want to imitate it. But their stands GW, in satins, lace and velvet swearing in.
And yet we all are so fortunate to have had him!
I loved the story of Ripley, Ohio. "It became so wealthy that during the panic of 1837 the town sent money to help bail out New York banks." Imagine a town doing that! Did it have to vote on that proposition or did the Mayor and the town council just send it on their own recognizance?
This little village of 2000 must be proud to be so prominent in Feiler's book. http://www.ripleyohio.net/
And what a guy John Rankin was!
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There is history here that I wasn't aware of, in that Ripley was prominent in the underground railroad. And, before the Civil War, the state of Ohio was the new Promised Land plus the Ohio R. was the Jordan, to those escaping slaves.
Here's the John Rankin House:
http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh3.htm
And several others involved in the UGR:
The John Parker House:
http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh2.htm (http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh2.htm)
The Harriet Beecher Stowe House:
http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh1.htm (http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh1.htm)
Remember Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe? Did you know that she lived in Cincinnati when she wrote that book. Her father, her brother and she were strong abolitionists.
Harriet's brother, Henry Ward Beecher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ward_Beecher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ward_Beecher) lived in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, for two yrs. at his first assignment as a minister. After that he accepted a call to the 2nd Presbyterian church in Indianapolis for 8 yrs. while later he became the minister of the famous Plymouth Church in Brooklyn. He was well known for his quotes:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/henry_ward_beecher.html
His wife, Eunice White Bullard Beecher, also wrote a novel which concerns a minister and his family's life in a small Indiana town, "From Dawn to Daylight: The Simple Story of a Western Home". http://www.bsu.edu/ourlandourlit/literature/Authors/beechere.html (http://www.bsu.edu/ourlandourlit/literature/Authors/beechere.html)
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Is that so, Annie? Anyone can be a Mason? I thought they were exclusive and secretive. I'll have to rethink my thoughts on them, then.
Ella, I waver from thinking as you do -that BF (not Ben Franklin, Annie :D) "keeps stretching his premise that Moses was inspirational to the founding of America" - and then I'm struck by the number of references to Genesis, Exodus and Leviticus - etched and engraved in so many of our early monuments - and even the Liberty Bell. I think the comparison to Exodus is very apt - the escape from tyranny and oppression, don't you? Since Leviticus - and Exodus were written by Moses (were they?) I can see where BF is calling him "America's prophet."
Especially now as we consider the abolition of slavery and the Underground Railroad. "Let my people go," said Moses! I read with interest of the placing of the nails in trees at crossroads, the quilt patterns, the spirituals that served as codes. directions to safe houses for the escaping slaves. Thanks for those links, Annie. I'm going to spend some time there now.
It's been so many years since I read "Uncle Tom's Cabin" - I'm going to have to read it again now - specifically to look for Biblical references tp Exodus - Moses in particular.
...found an on-line text you might be interested in looking at too -
Uncle Tom's Cabin
(http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/StoCabi.html)
Ella, I forgot how the town of Ripley made all that money - can you remind me?
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Yes, Moses and Aaron were of the tribe of Levi, and Aaron became the
High Priest of the Hebrews. The tribe of Levi, from that time on, were
the priests and temple caretakers. Both parents may have been Levites,
since it is my understanding that offspring of the mother are Jews by
lineage. I believe the idea is that there might be a doubt as to the
father, but there is no question as to the mother.
:D I did that, too, ANNIE. Don't feel lonesome.
It may be a bit of a stretch, ELLA, but I don't think we can blame it
on Feiler. There has been ample evidence that the people of that time
were finding these parallels with Moses and the Exodus. I was impressed
by Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman, surveying everything published in America between 1760 and 1805. The book most often cited during that period ‘founding era’, was the Book of Deuteronomy.
And there is more to the Masonic influence than the use of their Bible at the inauguration. Masonic symbols can be found so many places, including the currency we use every day.
Washington in satins, lace and velvet? On pg. 77, his inaugural attire
is described as "in a full suit of dark-brown cloth of American manufacture, with a steel hilted sword, white-silk stockings, and silver shoe-buckles."
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This best-selling book, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" is extremely well written, Harriet!
I've just finished Chapter IV - looking for references to Exodus - This chapter takes place in Uncle Tom's cabin - here's what I see -
Uncle Tom was a sort of patriarch in religious matters, in the neighborhood. Having, naturally, an organization in which the morale was strongly predominant, together with a greater breadth and cultivation of mind than obtained among his companions, he was looked up to with great respect, as a sort of minister among them; and the simple, hearty, sincere style of his exhortations might have edified even better educated persons. But it was in prayer that he especially excelled. Nothing could exceed the touching simplicity, the child-like earnestness, of his prayer, enriched with the language of Scripture, which seemed so entirely to have wrought itself into his being, as to have become a part of himself, and to drop from his lips unconsciously; in the language of a pious old negro, he "prayed right up." And so much did his prayer always work on the devotional feelings of his audiences, that there seemed often a danger that it would be lost altogether in the abundance of the responses which broke out everywhere around him.
Special favorite hymn -had oft repeated the words --
"O, I'm going to glory, -- won't you come along with me?
Don't you see the angels beck'ning, and a calling me away?
Don't you see the golden city and the everlasting day?"
There were others, which made incessant mention of "Jordan's banks," and "Canaan's fields," and the "New Jerusalem;" for the negro mind, impassioned and imaginative, always attaches itself to hymns and expressions of a vivid and pictorial nature; and, as they sung, some laughed, and some cried, and some clapped hands, or shook hands rejoicingly with each other, as if they had fairly gained the other side of the river.
O Canaan, bright Canaan
I'm bound for the land of Canaan."
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Annie - thanks for those sites.
I have a more favorable impression of the Masons since reading this chapter. I always perceived it as "a gentlemen's club" as BF states, but not as a "pan-religious body" and i still question that. He says "masonry was a republican institution...it repudiated the monarchial hierarchy of family and favoritism and created a new hierarchial order that rested on 'real worth and personal merit"......"a social movement, not some secret control over America"......"Washington emphasized certain values - fortitude, justice, humility - that are very masonic."
I think it became, especially in the 19th and 20th century, a very selective group, you had to be "nominated" by a Mason to be inducted and therefore i think it became more elitest than BF suggests. All that secrecy made it suspect about what was going on and what they were about. If the goals of education, justice, non-prejudice, etc, remain that has not been my perception.
I know that there is a very large group of separate, Black Masons, which indicates that they, of course, were not part of the "freedom" and "justice" concepts. My father-in-law was a member of the Black Masons, so i asked my DH to tell my his perception of them. We decided that in order for the Black M's organization to have learned all of the bits and pieces of this secret org'n, that some where along the line White men most have encouraged and assisted Blacks to form their own org'n. After all, it would be good for Whites if Blacks encouraged education, justice, integrity, civility, etc. My DH saw his father's org'n as a social/community support group, and an elitest one also. If you had a problem you could go to a fellow Mason and get support. In the days before any kind of financial security, i'm sure that was a factor in the White Masons also. I have always been amazed at how often men - and promenient men - went bankrupt in the 18th and 19th centuries.
As w/ many aspects of society, it appears they had lofty goals, but difficulty living up to them, themselves.......................jean
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Ella,
I loved the story of Ripley, Ohio. "It became so wealthy that during the panic of 1837 the town sent money to help bail out New York banks." Imagine a town doing that! Did it have to vote on that proposition or did the Mayor and the town council just send it on their own recognizance?
And here we are how many years later, and we have the government bailing out the New York banks, again with tax payers money.
JoanP, "My husband tells me that his father was a Mason - though my husband didn't know it until his dad's funeral. but it wasn't until his father's death that he learned that his father was a Mason - it was that secret.
Jean, "it repudiated the monarchial hierarchy of family and favoritism and created a new hierarchial order that rested on 'real worth and personal merit"......"a social movement, not some secret control over America"
I am uncomfortable with any group that has to be secretive, regardless of what they say their intentions are. Men belonging to a group having to keep it from their wives and family is deceptive. So if this "gentleman's club" is suppose to be for the good of the people, why be secret, and why encourage blacks to form their own group when they could have all worked together for all races? Imagine how they could have closed the gap on racism as far back as that? Many a group/cult has been formed in the name of doing goodwill for the society, based on their own ideas and values. Sure is food for thought....
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Today, there are almost five-million Masons in the world, with the United States claiming about three and one half million of the total membership.
Here are the Steps to Join a Masonic Lodge (http://www.gl-mi.org/steps-to-join-masons.htm)
Though all the links on this page do not work, the one called "interesting facts about Freemasonry" is ...interesting.
Jean, I read your post on the Black Masons with interest. Where is your DH from? I'm wondering if MA? You might be interested in reading of Prince Hall who is considered to be the founder of Black Freemasonry in the US - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hall
Have just finished Chapter VII of Uncle Tom's Cabin. In this chapter, Eliza is running towards Canada from Kentucky through the icy Ohio River with her little son who is about to be sold into slavery. She can see the Ohio side of the river - is told to make her way to the "big white house" she can see from the river's edge...
Biblical reference -
"An hour before sunset, she entered the village of T -- -- , by the Ohio river, weary and foot-sore, but still strong in heart. Her first glance was at the river, which lay, like Jordan, between her and the Canaan of liberty on the other side
"Isn't there any ferry or boat, that takes people over to B -- -- , now?" she said.
she gazed with longing eyes on the sullen, surging waters that lay between her and liberty."
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There seem to be ivy league secret societies such as "Skull&Crossbones" which are accused of owning the American presidency and all its men.
http://www.skullandcrossbones.org/articles/skullandbones.htm (http://www.skullandcrossbones.org/articles/skullandbones.htm)
John Kerry and George Bush are both members.
I wonder what their steps to join are??? I bet we'll never know.
Here's the Masonic Commitment to Character:
http://www.gl-mi.org/Should-I-Ask.pdf
Well, hecky durn, the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts have commitment to character.
Ella,
I believe that BF has chained all these events together to show us his take on Moses and America's founders plus other leaders in our country.
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TYPO: In case you couldn't find it, on p.114 the scripture quoted as in Exodus 11 is actually in Exodus 21, v. 10.
I agree, JEAN. Especially the statement that it [b]"repudiated the monarchial hierarchy of family and favoritism and created a new hierarchial order that rested on 'real worth and personal merit". [/b]
There is a strong perception of Masonry as showing favoritism for it's members and their families. Masons are expected to support and come to the aid of their brother Masons, above all others.
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Babi,
Thanks for pointing out the correct Exodus quote. Am I confused? When I read that I understood it to mean they didn't honor the monoarchial hierarchy or disowned that term. And, then was a man left to find his own path so that he was a better person and therefore made a better patriarch to his family??
When I looked up the word, this is what I found: http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=repudiated+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=repudiated+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
Many different words to use for repudiated but if that is word BF chose to use, then I guess I might be right.
What say you?
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Joan - my husband grew up in north Jersey, his father and two brothers were born in Ga and all emigrated to Pa and NJ in the 30's and all 3 were Masons...........jean
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On pg 114 Rankin says re. slavery in Deut'y 23 "Thou shalt not deliver unto his master a servant who has escaped."!!
I guess the legislators who wrote the Fugitive Slave Act didn't read the verse........ :P
And then it says that the Rankins raised 22 children, 13 OF THEIR OWN!.................but did you notice that Mrs Rankin, mother of 13, raiser of 22 doesn't have a name!?! It says "Rankin and his wife raised..." "his wife," "his wife"?...........we should be celebrating her for raising all those children and we should know her name!!!
Also when BF mentions the quilt codes, he doesn't mention that those were done by women............huuuummm, i'm getting a little skeptical about BF's believe in justice and equality, maybe it doesn't extend to women?
I wonder about the use of the word "spiritual," I didn't see a word history, i'll see if i can find that, but Encarta's definition lists:
1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in contrast to material things
2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things rather than worldly things
3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by an affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
(spiritual mother of the young artist)
4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with the higher things in life
and:
5. folk hymn: a religious song, especially one arising from African American culture
6. things of spirit: matters concerning the spirit
He was deeply concerned with anything to do with the spiritual.
BF seems to use it as definition 2, but i'm not sure if all the people he is quoting are using it in the same way.
I liked the story of Harriet Tubman using 1, 2 and/or 3 verses of Let My People Go as coded msgs to escaping slaves. ...................I hadn't read about that before............ jean
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ANNIE, as I understand it, they rejected the idea that authority and
power should rest in someone's hands solely because they were born into a certain family, or because someone had powerful friends (favoritism). They argued that a man should advance on his own merits. Nevertheless, in their with the outside world, they did, and do, show favoritism for members of the Masonic order.
The revolutionaries were 'repudiating' allegiance to England, and the
Masonic position supported that stance.
JEAN, perhaps the legislators were making a careful and self-serving distinction between 'servant' and 'slave'. They argued that slaves were 'property' and property should be returned to the owner. Slavery and all the laws that protected it were only possible by first dehumanizing it's victims.
Thanks for those definitions. My impression was that def. 1. and 5.
fit just right. Those people brought their own way of worshipping-
the singing, clapping, dancing and shouting- and incorporated that
spirit into the Christian teachings.
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A question about Moses - Babi wrote:
"Yes, Moses and Aaron were of the tribe of Levi, and Aaron became the
High Priest of the Hebrews"
.
I was curious to learn whether Moses and Aaron were blood brothers, or does it mean that both were of the tribe of Levi. So, I did a quick search - and found some interesting things about Moses - Moses as a prophet.
This seems to be a basic Judaic educational site ~ http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm Levi - was Moses and Aaron's maternal grandfather.
From this site -
As important as Moses was to the Children of Israel, it is always important to remember that Moses himself was not the deliverer or redeemer of Israel. It was G-d who redeemed Israel, not Moses. Moses was merely G-d's prophet, His spokesman. The traditional text of the Pesach haggadah does not even mention Moses' name. In order to prevent people from idolatrously worshipping Moses, his grave was left unmarked (Deut. 34:6).
This seems to be what some of you have been saying. Do you get the impression that Bruce Feiler places undue importance on Moses?
"The history below is derived from written Torah, Talmud, Midrash and other sources.
Aaron was Moses' older brother. He was born in 2365, three years before Moses, before the Pharaoh's edict requiring the death of male Hebrew children
Moses was born on 7 Adar in the year 2368 from Creation (circa 1400 BCE), the son of Amram, a member of the tribe of Levi, and Yocheved, Levi's daughter (Ex. 6:16-20). Unlike the heroes of many other ancient cultures, Moses did not have a miraculous birth. Amram married Yocheved, and she conceived, and she gave birth (Ex. 2:1-2). The only unusual thing about his birth is Yocheved's advanced age: Yocheved was born while Jacob and his family were entering Egypt, so she was 130 when Moses was born."
Can anyone explain these advanced ages? Do you suppose that they calculated a year differently back then?
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For you, Jean:
In 1892, six years after his death, a monument to John Rankin and his wife, Jean Lowrey, "Freedom's Heroes," was dedicated on the grounds of the cemetery in Ripley, Ohio.
I think I've read enough of Uncle Tom's Cabin conclude that BF did not stretch things a bit to reach the conclusion that Moses (Let My People Go") and the story of Exodus were central to the Underground Railroad movement-
I'm going to read more of the book tomorrow, but the point was made in HBStowe's bestselling book of the time. Even children were named "Moses" -
The story of Eliza's escape to save her young child - and herself - from being sold into slavery - was a true story that Harriet Beecher Stowe knew of. The house they reached on the other side of the river was indeed John Rankin's house in Ripley, Ohio.
Tomorrow I believe we move into the battle of the Moseses in Chapter VI- with both the North and the South claiming Moses as their prophet! Reading this chapter, I came to the conclusion that quoting and interpreting Biblical passages is like quoting Law...out of context, passages can be quoted to support any cause.
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JOANP, it seems most unlikely that Yochebed was 130 years old and
still bearing children. To say she was "Levi's daughter" does not
necessarily mean his direct daughter. Descendents were often referred to
as 'sons' and 'daughters' of whomever.
I wonder how they even got those birth dates, as It would surely have
been impossible to keep birth records for all those people. I think
"circa" should probably be attached to all of them.
I came to the conclusion that quoting and interpreting Biblical passages is like quoting Law...out of context, passages can be quoted to support any cause.
Absolutely, JOAN. And it happens all the time. Before I will accept any
notion based on a single scripture, I want to see the "two or three
witnesses" that scripture commands. Show me supporting texts and
testimony.
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Thanks, JOAN AND BABI, for that information, I agree with all that you say. The quotes, the dates, etc. from the Bible, impossible to interpret.
I was just skimming through some of the pages in Chapter V before I go on to the following chapters. When Feiler is describing how to "make a slave" he quite possibly is correct when he says you must strip away a person's culture. Indeed, yes.
"The controlling part is that I'm trying to convince you that my God is the real God. In the African perspective, God is to be loved. In the European perspective, God is to be feared."
I was taught both perspectives as a child and was always confused. Am still so, but I think I like the God is Love perspective better.
How about both of you?
JOANP: You asked how Ripley, Ohio got its wealth. I'm sure that being situated on the Ohio River where transportation was vital to the nation's interest helped a lot, don't you imagine?
Who is the audience for this book? Who is Feiler addressing? Who is he attempting to teach?
Who is the reader?
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I do like biblical history. And we have discussed two of Bruce Feiler's books that were very good I think:
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/WalkingtheBible.html
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Abraham.html
WALKING THE BIBLE and ABRAHAM, both good historical books.
But attempting to link Moses to the founding fathers and early American history is a "stretch" as I have said before.
However, any book, any written words are worth pursuing and I shall stay with Feiler until the end of this one.
I note that he has written a book about the circus and one about Japan; both might be very good. And there is one titled DAYS AND NIGHTS AT OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE. Interesting.
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Ella asks,
'Who is the audience for this book? Who is Feiler addressing? Who is he attempting to teach?
Who is the reader?'
Answers to those questions would no doubt clear up some of the problems some of us are having with Feiler's look at American history. I've participated in a number of book discussions here dealing with founding fathers, Lincoln and the Civil War and Depression America, and never a word about Moses. I remember reading that John Adams was very devout, almost puritanical, but I don't remember that he was determined to get his religious ideas into the Constitution. And many of the other FFs I believed to be influenced more by Thomas Paine, along with Roman and Greek political leaders, than by biblical heroes. After all there is more Latin than Hebrew on the dollar bill.
Chapter 6 has turned things around for me. After feeling a bit impatient with Feiler's superficial cherrypicking among American historical events and processes, he really scores with demonstrating the influence of the Bible in America beginning with the Second Awakening and through the years leading up to the Civil War. Perhaps God did decide to get involved in America's Manifest Destiny.
Was the outcome of the Civil War a victory for God? Was God angry with Southern leaders for justifying slavery with their misuse of biblical verses. They seem to have won the fierce pre-war debates, proving biblically that the Bible 'sanctions, tolerates, regulates and does nothing to eliminate slavery.' (p154) Did God choose a reluctant Lincoln to fulfil the Divine Wrath. Lincoln comes on the scene and succeeds in American poitics by 'being on good terms with the Good Book' (160), describing the Bible as 'the richest source of pertinent quotations'. From quoting to believing was an agony for him no doubt, and the Emancipation Prolamation followed after a 'solemn vow before God'. The proclamation, Feiler tells us, was 'the first time Lincoln's personal relationship with God appears to have crept into his decision making.' (162)
This opens the door to curious speculation and curious theology. Feiler asks Professor Guelzo 'whether Lincoln was more interested in the Old or New Testament: 'It's the Old Testament that fascinates him...It's a God who's remote and hands down ways of doing things. It's a God who promises deliverance. And deliverance, of course, is the message of Gettysburg.' (163)
And then Lincoln is assassinated on Good Friday, and with that a revision of Lincoln's image. 'If you had to compare Lincoln with Moses or Jesus, which would you choose', Professor Guelzo is asked. With that question things take a new turn. From deliverance we go to redemption. Prof. G: 'The private Lincoln is more like Jesus, but the public Lincoln in more like Moses.'
What would Lincoln say to all that? I like to think that he would insist on the nearness of God in the Old Testament. Anyone who was at Mt. Sinai would vouch for that.
Isn't it interesting that 94 books about heaven were published in the decade after the Civil War. So many sorrowing for lost ones. I've been out of town for the last week, taking part in the obsequies to a dear departed sister. No need to sorrow. She was 87 and all her life dearly loved her bible. She lived a long and useful life, and hundreds came to say farewell. A brother spoke the moving words 'I am the Ressurection and the Life' at the gravesite. A memorial service featured some of her many talented children and grandchildren. Amazing Grace, with vocal and soft drumbeat. In the Sweet Bye and Bye played on the trumpet. This is the Day That the Lord has made, by another granddaughter. All very moving. Religion does add a lot of solemnity and meaning to death. She was my first Sunday School teacher 70 years ago, one mourner told me. Pardon me, while I wipe away a tear.
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I finally got my copy from the library. Jumped in and am reading about Ripley Ohio. I think I heard that a house in my area was a part of the underground railroad.
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Oh Jonathan, now you have me teary-eyed as well, not out of sadness, but at the beauty of the ceremony. We should all be so blessed!
A wonderful overview of Chapter VI, Jonathan...leaving us with Lincoln in the role of America's greatest Moses. Has Feiler answered Ella's questions in this chapter? Who is he addressing? What is his "lesson"? Hasn't he been saying all along that whenever people stray from God, from the Bible, that a crisis will arise, that a leader will come forward to lead people back? How does Feiler see his "audience" now? Have we moved from a religous state to the secular? Is Feiler's purpose to make us aware of this - and where we are in the cycle? How would you characterize today's society?
Ella, do you think the fact that today we look upon God as loving and forgiving draws us to the Bible for guidance - or does it make us feel that it isn't really necessary?
But what of the Civil War period? It seems that both the South and the North had turned to the Bible for guidance. Or were they using the Bible for political purposes? Feiler writes that the end of the war brought about the "most severe theological crisis." How was this crisis resolved?
Ginny Ann, will you remind us of where your area is located? Please keep reading...chapter VI...we need your input!
Ella, like you"The controlling part is that I'm trying to convince you that my God is the real God. In the African perspective, God is to be loved. In the European perspective, God is to be feared."
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ELLA, I think it is really both. God is love, merciful and forgiving.
But he is also to be respected and obeyed. God is, after all, GOD.
Actually, it was the Pilgrims, and the founding Fathers, and the slaves
on the Underground Railroad who make the links with Moses. Feiler is
just pointing this out. He is showing us the influence of Moses' history
in our own history.
JONATHAN, to me the surprise was that there was Hebrew on the dollar
bill at all. Jewish immigration at that time was very low; they had no
signicant influence as a group, that I can see. The teaching of Hebrew in
the colleges and the Biblical influences of this time apparently do
come from the scriptures, predominantly Exodus and Deuteronomy.
The Great Awakening; This is a site that helped put 'The Great Awakening' in a proper perspective for me. I really had only the vaguest notion of it.
tp://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/grawaken.htm
"proving biblically that the Bible 'sanctions, tolerates, regulates and does nothing to eliminate slavery.' "
I agree that nothing was done to eliminate slavery, except to forbid
Hebrew enslaving Hebrew, and allowing for the redemption of Hebrews
enslaved elsewhere. Realistically, the Biblical leaders had to deal with
conditions as they existed, and the Bible is brutally honest about human
shortcomings. There are instances where leniency in judging slaves was
made law. In the New Testament, the Christian slave attains a different
status. "In Christ..there is neither slave nor free.." Masters and slaves
were instructed in a new relationship to one another.
The groundwork was laid there for the changes to come. It is our
shame that those changes came so slowly, due to greed, ignorance and
arrogance.
JONATHAN, that was a very moving tribute to your sister. It meant so
much to me to see the astounding number of people who came to my Father's funeral. I knew he was loved and respected, but I didn't realize how many people he had touched. The most touching eulogy was spoken
but a nephew, the son of his twin brother. I'll never forget it.
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Feiler writes that Cincinnati was "the fastest growing city in the world" between 1820 and 1840 - and "the firece testing ground for religious freedom." (I'm puzzled about what Daniel Boone had to do with all this, how he came to be called the Moses of the WEST. Can anyone explain that? From what opperssion was he fleeing?)
Did it strike you that in a discourse on religious freedom, we are reading of the Protestants "vicious battles with the Catholics" and the Mormans and Jews' "struggle for legitimacy." How free is all that?
So, there were religious struggles, "fierce and vicious" - and next we are told that that the battle between North and South was a battle of the Moseses, both claiming the mantle of Exodus.
Till now, have you thought of the Civil War as a Biblical argument over slavery - Feiler tells us that Lincoln thought God would decide whose view of the Bible was correct. So then, did he believe that God had been on the antislavery side of the North because they won the war? No, Feiler tells us that neither side won the war. I think I'll agree with the idea that no one side ever wins a war - everyone loses.
What does he mean when he writes that Lincoln regarded the Bible as just another source of knowledge, but not the ultimate truth. I got lost in the conclusion that "the culture has two souls. " What did you take from that?
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JOANP, Boone was probably just as puzzled as you are. According to the book, Boone was simply an "undistinguished trader". John Filson used him to dramatize a booklet he wrote trying to recruit people to settle in Kentucky. "Since Boone was a man of few words, Filson flushed out his 'autobiography' with elaborate fictionalizations..." Alas, another treasured legend debunked! The 'Moses' likeness came from the idea of "venturing into the wilderness" and taking people with him.
Feiler has well documented the fierce religious debates on slavery that
preceded the Civil War. Yipes, can you imagine a debate that goes on for nine nights?!! I think that does give a picture of the tensions
that existed and were growing prior to the civil war. I certainly don't
think the Civil War itself could be called a 'Biblical' argument over
slavery.
I found myself annoyed by what seems to me the carelessness of Biblical
citation on p. 154. In Corinthians and Romans, Paul is speaking, not
Jesus. And in 1 Peter, Peter is speaking, not Paul. I also notice that a
careful reading of the scriptures referred to gives a different picture
than that suggested by the 'Southern leaders', but I won't go into that
quarrel. We can all read them for ourselves.
I would point out that it should be remembered that such advice was
being given to slaves who had become Christian and wanted to know how they should conduct themselves. Admonitions were also given to new Christians who owned slaves, especially when the slaves were also
Christian. They were dealing with the 'here and now', the world as it
existed. In today's idiom, 'where the rubber meets the road'.
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JONATHAN: "I've participated in a number of book discussions here dealing with founding fathers, Lincoln and the Civil War and Depression America, and never a word about Moses
JOANP: "Till now, have you thought of the Civil War as a Biblical argument over slavery "-
BABI: "I found myself annoyed by what seems to me the carelessness of Biblical
citation on p. 154. In Corinthians and Romans, Paul is speaking, not
Jesus. And in 1 Peter, Peter is speaking, not Paul.
All the above quotes are indicative of our problems in reading Feiler's book.
I haven't read the next three chapters but will today as I am positively snowed in. If I tried to back my car out of the garage the icicles protruding from the roof would scratch the car and with a foot that is not completely healed from surgery I dare not try to do too much. How annoying is winter!
GINNYANN: What is your opinion of the chapters you have read?
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Cincinnati, Queen City, a two-hour drive from my home, is still a lovely city, a city of hills and history.
The first Elderhostel I ever went on (when I was 60 years of age, a long time ago) was to Cincinnati and I drove there alone staying in a dormitory on the campus of the University of Cincinnati where my daughter graduated. I requested a roommate and Florence, from New York, was just delightful (most New Yorkers are!), but she was amused, and somewhat chagrined, at the fact that she had to arrive by air in the state of Kentucky and cross the Ohio River to get to Cincinnati; her tale of that epiosode was greatly enhanced that evening by the bottle of wine she pulled out of her suitcase and shared with me.
Gosh, you couldn't put that in a suitcase today!
Henry Ward Beecher. I remember his name from some historical book.
"The least understood dimension in the War Between the States is that it was also a War Between the Moseses.:
Never have I heard that! I do believe that both the North and South in the Civil War believed that God was on their side. Isn't it still true? Muslims are dying because God wills it.
I wonder what we believe we are doing fighting the Muslims.
The United States was 95 percent Protestant in 1845 Feiler tells us. That's remarkable if true. Yet he says early in this chapter (VI) that in the Queen City of Cincinnati vicious batteles were being fought between Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Mormons.
My grandmother was bigoted where Catholics were concerned. She thought that they wanted to take over America and their Pope was a King and, somehow, being around her when young I got the idea that the Masons were formed to prevent that. She talked of revivals, tent meetings, cottage prayers, etc. when she was young and in her early marriage. Her husband died very young and she had 3 children to support which she did very well, opening her home to "old-age pensioners" - most of whom were state employees, teachers, etc.
For some reason, I resent Feiler telling me about slavery. How can you have lived in America and gone to school here without learning our terrible history of slavery and the war that was fought over the issue. Perhaps he is directing these stories to immigrants?
Has he mentioned the Gideon Bibles in every hotel room?
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"http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1477/why-is-there-a-bible-in-every-hotel-room"
"In the early days, most of the Gideons were traveling salesmen who wanted to be effecitve Christian witnesses while on the road. They decided to place a Bible at the reception desk in each hotel they frequented so patrons could borrow it. The Bible also served as a silent witness in these hotels after the Gideons had checked out. Today, the Gideons place more than 45,000,000 bibles annually in prisons, hospitals, military bases and, of course, hotel rooms. "
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ELLA - I was reminded of the Gideons when I spent Christmas weekend in the hospital. Since I had not planned to remain overnight, I didn't bring any reading material and the nurses didn't have any way to find a newspaper for me. So I read one of the Bibles left by the Gideons in the drawer of my nightstand. The last time I recall reading from a Gideons' Bible was many years ago on a train. But it helped pass the time, while I rested in hospital, and for that I was grateful.
Mahlia
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I like it best when he tries to travel the Underground Railroad. When he is first person at the actual places he is writing about, that appeals the most to me. For some reason this book 'feels heavier' reading than his Abraham which I loved reading. Reading America's Prophet is like reading an 'assignment for a class.' If it wasn't for this discussion, I would give up on it.
I live in NE Ohio, in Medina County. The house I am thinking of as part of the Underground Railroad is in the City of Medina.
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I turned my book in after reading only 100 pages. I just couldn't make myself read anymore. I enjoyed some of the historical facts, but felt that BF was stretching too much to prove his premise--maybe it was just the mood I was in, but....
I am looking forward to joining you in next months discussion.
Sally
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I found it most interesting, ELLA, that Feiler says the hoopla of
polititical vote seeking was adopted from the excitement and emotionalism of revivals and tent meetings. Now that he points it out, I can see the similarities. The politicians are not slow to see what will draw people's attention.
Don't you think it's always easier to read and discuss something in the
distant past? The closer it gets to home, the more sensitive we are.
This book is not easy, GINNY ANN, no question about it. There is so
much material, I'm having a hard time keeping abreast of the reading and
have taken more notes than I have had time to discuss. But I am reallyearning some things here.
I think there can be no doubt that the language of the Bible, especially
that of Exodus and Deuteronomy, was widely used and widely understood in the days of which Feiler writes. The imagery of Moses
was widely used to popularize many actions and purposes.
I think our objection here and now is that we don't feel the same way
about the Moses story today or find it central to our present understanding of our country. Therefore we find it's importance then
hard to acknowledge. Nevertheless, I believe Feiler is correct about
it's usefulness and importance in our early history.
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Babi, in this morning's Washington Post, Michael Dirda has an interesting review of a book by Kristin Swenson - "Bible Babel: Making sense of the most talked about book of all time." I'm going to try to get it on line here - because the author makes some very relevant points to what you have just posted when you say "I think our objection here and now is that we don't feel the same way about the Moses story today or find it central to our present understanding of our country"
From this review:
"Once upon a time, kids learned scripture in church or at catechism; family Bibles were read aloud on Sunday and passed down from one generation to the next; the great figures of the Old Testament were equally familiar to both Jews and Christians. Perhaps this is still largely true, but I wonder." Review of Bible Babel (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/17/AR2010021704417.html)
What do you think? Is the Bible widely read by the younger generation today?
"If it wasn't for this discussion, I would give up on it."
Ginny Ann, I know what you mean. I too find myself struggling to accept come of the connections to Moses that seem so obvious to the author. Sally, I felt that "BF was stretching to prove his premise" but must admit I'm impressed with the research and the impact of the whole story of Exodus on different periods of America's history. It is only in the later chapters - the Civil Rights section, especially, where I begin to see Moses. Right now it is the Exodus story that has my attention.
- I'm going to have to revisit Ohio -with fresh eyes...The state does seem to have been the crossroads between North and South, doesn't it? (I'd always thought of Virginia as the crossroads...) The Underground Railroad compares to the Red Sea, don't you think?
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"Just when America's connection to Moses was tarnished by its association with the losing side of the Civil War, along came the most captivating symbol yet, and a renewed look to its Mosaic past." BF Chapter VII
Can someone explain what Feiler meant with this statement? The "captivating symbol" is the Statue of Liberty of course, but what does he mean when he says "America's connection to Moses was tarnished by its associaton with the losing side of the Civil War?" I can't quite grasp what he is saying here?
How does the author connect the Statue of Liberty to the Moses story? Lady Liberty is a symbol of refuge for masses of opperssed people, yes, the promised land, but who is Moses in this example?
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I'm back, have been dealing w/ a family crises for 2 days which is now resolved. You've covered a lot of ground that i had notes on, so i'll TRY to be brief... some of you will be skeptical of that statement, i know....lol.
The chapts that talk of the Second Great Awakening and of D Boone and the Civil War really had me crying for footnotes. On pg 144 he gives the statement that in 1850 40% of Americans defined themselves as "evangelical" Chirstians. That may very well be correct, i'd just like to know where he got the fact and what was the definition of "evangilical" at the time. It is true that the Baptist and Methodist denominations grew a lot thru this time (o.k., ask me to ftnt that fact.....it was in all the history texts i've taught U.S. History from...lol)
I liked his reference to political parties learning to use the hoopla of evangelism. He also frequently states "many tho't/saw/believed." "Many" is such a nebulous word and means nothing if not in context, or referenced.
When i looked at the Boone picture, i tho't of Mary and Joseph going to Bethleham, not Moses leading people out of Egypt, anyone else have that tho't? Many persons of history could be portrayed in the way he has portrayed DB - leaving family for the wilderness - or unfamiliar place - is cleansed and transformed by nature - fits right into the PBS series on the national parks; has an "encounter w/ Providence; climbs a summit and sees paradise; reutrns to summon others to emigrate and transform it to Eden. The two obvious ones that we've discussed here are Lewis and Clark.................and i couldn't tell if Filson was making the comparison or if BF was making the comparison of Boone and Moses. He also comments on "the shaft of light in front(?), a trail of clouds behind and a white hosre at his side" The clouds are filling in the picture, what else would he put there?
I have to admit that i'm very much a "what i see is what i get" kind of person. I often don't see symbolism until it is explained to me, so i may be being too critical of BF.
On pg 148 he also says "manifest destiny was a way of saying that God had chosen Anglo-Americans to convert the land for him - no matter who got misplaced." That is probably true and was believed at the time, but that has proved a very sad philosophy for Anglos to have had. Let's hope they got God's msg wrong on that issue. From my reading i believe that there were about 100 million Native Americans in the Americas when the Spanish arrived in the 1500's, by 1900 there may have been 10 million left, meaning 90% had died in some way or other resulting from contact w/ Anglos. No wonder NA'ns consider Columbus day a day for mourning.
On pg 151 - ".......HB Stowe was encouraging her readers to support a cause that involved breaking the law. The only way to do that was to persuade them that God was on their side.......And Stowe succeeded." As w/ manifest destiny i believe it's a problem when human beings decide "God is on our side." As someone else commented that is the belief of radical Moslems at the moment. If God "made" human beings, than is God on a side of some and not others in a war between groups? Or have we, like HBS, used that argument to support our cause? Shouldn't we use logic in our arguments and not portend to speak for God? Lincoln says we don't understand God - Thank YOu Abe.
BF gives "ownership" to the Old Testament to all uses of the words fourscore, brought forth, dedicate, consecrate, hallow, let there be light (statue of Liberty), tables of stone, and Moses face was radiant, etc. Surely every behavior or aspect of life is stated soemwhere in the Bible, but also in Shakespeare, in Greek/Roman/Asian literature and the staement that Moses' "horns" are "echoed in the spikes" on Liberty's head??? (I tho't it was a crown.) He attaches the term "Biblical pattern" to the process of birth, death, rebirth. That process had been discussed, mulled and fought over long before the Old Testament had been written or before the Hebrews existed. That's even beyond "stretching."
Joan - i've given up trying to figure out how BF gets to such statemtns as "A's connection to Moses was tarnished." I am feeling that this book was more thrown together - it was time for a new book - than his others and not as well done.
O.K., i'll stop for now........i am loving all your posts..............jean
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Quote
"Just when America's connection to Moses was tarnished by its association with the losing side of the Civil War, along came the most captivating symbol yet, and a renewed look to its Mosaic past." BF Chapter VII
Can someone explain what Feiler meant with this statement? The "captivating symbol"
I believe the answer might be found in what Feiler says at the bottom of the same page (177):
'At the close of the Civil War, the country's most profound shock may have been the damage to its self-image as a chosen people, selected by God to create a biblical kingdom on earth.
It seems as if the author is disconcerted to find Moses missing in action, so to speak. Has the country turned its back on Moses? America without Moses is not the homeland he is seeking for himself and his co-religionists. I sometimes find myself thinking of the author as the biblical prodigal son returning home. Or reassuring his people that America was, is, and will be their destined land. In other words, I believe it would help to be Jewish to appreciate his story.
How delighted he is to find that the Statue of Liberty can be made to fit into his story. He admits, quite frankly, that he has 'judaicized' the statue, and I have to admit just as frankly, that I no longer recognize the lady as the one that came from France.
But I like his story nevertheless. He starts in a grand way:
Quote (p178-9)
'Not until the boat passes under her feet does my heart skip a beat at her Olympian splendor: her firm grip on the tablet in her left arm, the seven bolts of light from her crown, and the erect majesty of her right arm, with the twenty-karat flame mandging to brighten the gloom. The shock of gold in the otherwise dreary environs reminds me of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.'
Chapter 7 is a tour-de-force in redefining a grand symbol. Not at all what the French had in mind. It seems to me that the author himself is overwhelmed by the story he is trying to tell. He sure finds himself back on track when he celebrates Yom Kippur in the massive Plymouth Church, Henry Ward Beecher's podium. Another quote I can't resist:
Page 203. 'Though the windows were undecorated in Beecher's time, today they are filled with majestic stained glass that tells the history of American religion. Three focus on the Pilgrims: John Robinson launching the SPEEDWELL, the signing of the Mayflower Compact, and William Brewster landing on Plymouth Rock. The First Great Awakening is honored with Jonathan Edwards, the second with Lyman Beecher. Harriet appears with her sister Catharine in a tribute to women'ss education. Abraham Lincoln peers down on the pulpit, gripping the Emancipation Proclamation. I wispered to my wife, "It's the story of my book!" '
Ginny Ann is right. It's a heavy book. Almost a locked book, until one finds the key.
PBS has something on Winston Churchill tonight. He comes into the story later, when he is made to burst into tears at the thougt of having emulated Moses! Stay tuned.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
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AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann
Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.
When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009
LINKS: Moses on the Web (http://brucefeiler.com/books/americas-prophet/moses-on-the-web/) -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley (http://video.pbs.org/video/1328905759/) -- Top Five Causes of the Civil War (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm) -- Historic Timeline of Slavery and the Underground Railroad (http://www.freedomcenter.org/underground-railroad/timeline/#) -- Bell cast in England and sent to St Paul's after 9/11 (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RvpVKx8hQpQ/SMiWml3RlII/AAAAAAAAAXs/KsxmOpcwWvg/s400/sept11+110.JPG)
Starting on Feb 1st, we will read and discuss
Chaps 1,2 &3--1st week
Chaps 4&5--2nd week
Chaps 6&7--3rd week
Chaps 8,9 & 10- Last week
Discussion Leader: Ann (ADOANNIE35@YAHOO.COM)
Ella:I love reading the posts also, JEAN!
Moses is missing in action, JONATHAN says, and he now turns up in Great Britain in the company of Churchill! (Nothing about the "glow worm" on my PBS tonight)
Well, I haven't read any further and I must. This is just great fun isn't it!
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I'm so sorry I have to admit I have lost my enthusiasm with this book. While Feiler has managed to cover much history American and Biblical, I personally sense he had a personal mission with this book. Maybe like Jean stated it was time for another book and this was thrown together. There are many inconsistencies, misquoting, and opinions that lean to the way he wants the reader to see things from his own point of view. The problem when you decide to include scripture to prove a point of view, is that each person has their own personal interpretation of what they see scripture saying, depending on their own personal place with their faith, religion, or non believer.
I hoped this book was going to help me enjoy American history, since I never could throughout my years in school. I did learn much about history, but I feel he took up too much time on one subject per chapter leaving me exhausted and bored. I lost interest and decided to read a book called, "Go Ask Alice" by Anonymous. It was a book my freshman grand daughter was required to read at Notre Dame Academy. Wow I was blown away this book was read in a Catholic all girls high school. Talk about an introduction to reality for my fourteen year old grand daughter...like I told her Mom, at least it was introduced to her in a Christian atmosphere and discussed with a responsible Christian teacher. Okay, forgive me for getting off topic. lolol
Anyway, I don't see me finishing Feiler's book. I may leave it lay around and pick it up from time to time to get more history, but as far as his views, opinions and conclusions comparing founding fathers to Moses etc. I have come to the conclusion that anyone could surmise the founding fathers, just like the present day politicians, drew from Moses, scripture and other religious leaders, etc. to form this nation,the constitution, laws, etc. to help us all be able to live harmoniously in a country of diversity in race, religion and political ideas. You all have been superb! Jean I am impressed with your history knowledge, as I am with Babi's religious knowledge. Mahalia, you blew me away with your posts. Annie, Ginny, Ella thank you so much, as always its a joy to join you in discussions, and Jonathon, you always leave me in awe. So carry on....I hope to join you all in a future book. With my Lenten season beginning I feel I must consider giving my time to something of more substance and meaning for me personally. No offense to Feiler, but this book just couldn't hold my interest.
Ciao~ Marie
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It's also true, ELLA, that the first Methodists were considered quite
radical, much like today's evangelicals and charismatics. So I wouldn't
be surprised that with the rapid growth of Methodist and Baptist churches that 40% of Americans considered themselves 'evangelical'.
I see that I have fallen behind in my reading; I haven't gotten to the
Statue of Liberty yet. I find so much to ponder, discuss, etc., that much
of what I would have liked to say I must leave behind in the detritus.
Slowing down probably wouldn't be advisable, tho', since so many are displeased with the book for one reason or another...and understandably.
I think Feiler was correct when he wrote "The more radical the idea, the more leaders relied on the language of the Exodus to align their mission with the moral example set forth by Moses.” That has
alway been true, hasn't it. Those who are espousing new and radical
ideas need to find a moral precedent for them.
I also thought Feiler's exposition on the Lincoln's Gettysurg address was excellent. I was not aware of all the classical sources he used, though I
am not surprised. All 'educated' men of the times were drilled in the classics.
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GETTYSBURG.
We spent a week there in an Elderhostel studying the battles, the valiant men who thought they were fighting for a true cause, Americans killing Americans, bodies of comrades lying dead in the hot sun hour after hour.
It was a terrible three-day battle!
http://americancivilwar.com/getty.html
As President Lincoln said - we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground; the brave men who struggled here - etc., etc.,
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BELLEMARIE, sorry you won't finish the book or the discussion. Feiler is confusing, but there is history here. I think the problem with our author is he is mixing it all up - Biblical history, American history, Jewish history, even Hollywood history. Bits and pieces.
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BABI, I just reread your post. I'm not sure that Feiler's assertion is true. Radical ideas need a moral precept; we need examples. Hurriedly, I am thinking of Hitler and a "moral" precept. How about World War I? The Spanish Civil War?
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Still reading!
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Jonathan says: I believe it would help to be Jewish to appreciate his story. That made me stop to think, you may have a point there, can you elaborate for we gentiles? ;)
Yes, we Methodists have always seemed very radical to those Calvinists and Anglicans - i can say that w/ a pure heart and no bias since my father was Methodist and my Mother's family were Presbyterians. ....... we M's did all that singing and carrying on during the Second Grt Awking..........by the time i was going to the Methodist Church in the 1940's and 50's, they were much more conservative and you could hardly tell the difference between a M service and a P service.........but then everything was conservative in the 50's wasn't it? Altho my Mother's sister was very disturbed that my FAther kept a bottle of whiskey in the pantry - for medicinal purposes of course.............HAHA .........and he smoked a pipe and an occasional cigar AND he played cards, and had corrupted my Mother to the point that i was allowed to play games on Sunday, go swimming and roller skating and even have part-time job on Sunday - afternoon, of course, so as not to interfere w/ my going to church.
Are we ready to talk about the Statue of Liberty? My BIL and SIL celebrated their 40th wedding anniversary a few yrs ago and their children feted them and us - my DH is his sister's only sib - w/ dinner on a boat ride down the Hudson River and around the S of L. It is just magnificent seen from that position and at night. I have seen it in the daytime from further away, but going right around the base, she looks so huge and majestic. I want to go look at some sites to understand the allusion to the "tablets of law" and to their projecting forward?
I can get the book back from the library again on Sunday, so i can read those last chapts. Looking forward to the Churchill references.............jean
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I didn't know anything about the book Marie mentioned "Go Ask Alice." In my circles many of us have been involved w/ saving Alice Paul's house and artifacts and story, so we speak of "Alice" often, obviously a different Alice.........for those ofyou who also don't know the book, it's a diary of a 15 yr old drug user. Actually sounds like a pretty good book for teens to be reading. ..................... surprised that a Catholic school would think so?...............those nuns are often pretty progressive, may of the women i knew in the feminist movement in the 70's and 80's were nuns - or often es-nuns...........................jean
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Shaping up America. I do believe the author is trying to do just that.
It's being suggested that the book was intended to serve as a potboiler. I don't think so. The theme is too serious for that. Feiler seems too engrossed in his subject for that.
Amazing, where his biblical researches have taken him. After exploring ancient biblical sites all over the Middle East with so much success, Feiler finds a happy hunting-ground in modern America, picking up the darndest historical shards as evidence of God's way with America.
Some of his conclusions take ones breath away. His ambition is awesome. I'm bowled over by what Feiler does with the idea he gets from Jonathan Sarna, 'the leading historian of American Jewry. On page 201 we read, in Sarna's words:
'What's fascinating about America, is that it's much more formless than Europe, therefore its imagery is much more open to be changed and molded.'
Six pages on, after traversing many waters, both ancient and modern, the author has caught a new vision, namely:
'...the fear, experienced by each generation of outsiders, that by going to such a FORMLESS place, they will succumb to formlessness. They will forget the values of their native land and be lured by the worship of false gods.' p206
Isn't that so biblical. Just as it was in the beginning, when God found the earth 'WITHOUT FORM AND VOID' (Genesis 1:2), and did something about it. And manifest destiny followed.
Sure enough, Churchill, in the new bio doc, gets his years in the 'wilderness and exile' and is seen as a prophet. But then it is well known that the English are one of the ten lost tribes. Or at least those who escaped to America. And like Moses, Churchill never made it to the promised land except for a lecture or two and several consultations with the president.
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ELLA, what I had in mind was that in order to persuade people to support
a new and/or radical idea, you need to provide them with precedents they can relate to and a moral basis they can feel good about.
Hitler talked about a 'master race'; heroes that were part of Germanic
culture. Then the propaganda against the Jews was promulgated to lay a
veneer of justification for their oppression.
You would know better than I, but hasn't any campaign to get Americans to go to war involved convincing them of the necessity? Persuading the majority of the immorality of the enemy and our duty to confront them? However specious the arguments might be, they were used by those national leaders trying to gain support for a radical action.
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I have not been here this week as we were attending the funeral of my sister's husband over in Indianapolis. He was only 64 but had been ill over 20 years and was ready to leave this earth. His family gave him quite a send off including a military funeral.
There is so much to comment on in this book that I feel that I am way behind and we only have one more week for discussing it.
The book seems to be about the author's desire to show us how up to date the Moses stories are and how many leaders used the stories to back up their claims throughout the founding of our country plus other happenings ie. Harriet Tubman giving herself the name of Moses as she led the slaves out of their bondage and up Canada. The Ohio River being compared to the Red Sea by those same slaves is another good example.
Then we find that immigrants also used the Moses stories to understand and explain their reasons for coming to the US. Is this historically proven? Did they really think about Moses as they crossed the sea to settle here? Or were they understandably leaving a bad situation in their home country and coming to the states for a better life without any reference to Moses. I am thinking of the 1840's thru 1900 since that's when my family arrived here. Lets see: That would be because of the potato famine in Ireland and the cholera epidemic in Germany. Finding biblical back up for each of their trips across the Atlantic doesn't work for me.
But, I do think that they came bringing their different faiths with them and expecting to find a spiritual haven(church) that would continue to feed them spiritually plus help them try to restart their lives here in the U.S.
But where does Moses fit in to everyday life? The commandments that he accepted from God are always going to be put forth as a code of conduct as are other codes in other faiths such as
Hinduism:
"Religion teaches us how to become better people, how to live as spiritual beings on this Earth. This happens through living virtuously, following the natural and essential guidelines of dharma. For Hindus these guidelines are embodied in the yamas and niyamas. In Indian spiritual life, these restraints and observances are built into the character of children from an ealy age. By following them, we lift ourselves into the consciousness of the higher chakras- of love, compassion, intelligence and bliss- and naturally invoke the blessings of the devas and Mahadevas."
And, Buddhism:
The First Precept :
(Abstaining from taking the lives of living beings)
The Second Precept :
(Abstaining from taking that which is not given.)
The Third Precept:
Abstaining from sexual misconduct
The Fourth Precept:
(Abstaining from false speech)
The Fifth Precept:
(Abstaining from distilled and fermented intoxicants
which are the occasion for carelessness
which also includes drugs).
I found the "Mother of Exiles" stretching a bit until I reached the quote of Reagan's speech in 1986, pg 195, on the centennial of Liberty. That has meaning for me.
I wanted to say something about the Underground Railroad Museum (link in header). When we were in Cincy, we found a B&B that offers tours to that museum and several of the homes that were used for helping the slaves to escape. I intend to return to "The Queen City" in the spring or summer with the intention of seeing those homes and museum dedicated to those brave souls.
I found myself most interested in Harriet Beecher Stowe and her brother Henry Ward Beecher. Their home is still there to tour. Henry Ward Beecher is of interest to some of us who read and discussed "The Last Dickens" as HWB was a part of that story as was Plymouth Church in Brooklyn where Dickens listens to HWB preach.
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Interesting comments Jonathan and Annie - so true about all religions giving us moral codes.
Is The Last Dickens in the archives of discussions, do you know? I'd like to look at that................jean
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Growing up in New Jersey we spent quite a bit of time on the other side of the Hudson River - I must admit, that I never tired of looking at "The Mother of the Exiles." But in all those years, I never once thought of Moses and the story of Exodus...
I'll agree with those of you who believe that BF does stretch the link between the story of Exodus and America's monuments and icons to fit his premise - But as Ella says, he put in a lot of research and there is much history to be learned from the examples he has provided - from some of them anyway.
It was interesting to read of the period following the Civil War - the description of the change in America's society. He mentioned Darwin, the explosion of the biblical 6 day creation....how we had changed from a deeply religious society to one with a secular core of beliefs. He mentions the scientific revolution...and the fact that the 19th century had been America's Protestant century - but the 20th century was "something else."
Yes, I did find this interesting - but then he went on to connect the Statue of Lady Liberty to the Moses story - and he lost me. Of course there was the "exodus" from oppression as refuges sailed past the "mother of exiles." But where is Moses in this story? Perhaps he is embodied in the statue that stands in the harbor, but does not get to enter the promised land?
I was curious to learn more about that tablet she holds in her arms - which BF likens to Moses holding the stone tablet of the 10 Commandments.
I found this was interesting -
"The Statue of Liberty tablet contains an inscription of a text or series of letters which is actually the date of the United States of America's day of Independence (the year being written in Roman numerals): JULY IV MDCCLXXVI or the July 4, 1776.
Like many other features of the Statue of Liberty, the stone tablet is open to various symbolism and the accompanying interpretations to each. For one, Statue of Liberty tablet is symbol of the importance of commemorating historical events that happen to each nation.
The reason for this is because the date of one of the most important historical events that happened to the United States was inscribed there. Generally, it is a belief that without acknowledging history, a nation can never successfully progress to new levels of enlightenment.
To explicate further, a nation, together with its students, should learn from the experiences it underwent so that they can apply the lessons obtained to the present context and create progress. And, since one of the most important days of American history is inscribed into the Statue of Liberty tablet, it just proves how important it is for Americans to never forget that they day they declared their independence from Great Britain defines who they are now.
Another possible interpretation is that the Statue of Liberty tablet actually represents a book, and that book represents the power of knowledge. Knowledge is indeed power, and its power is potent to change and reform society.
The statue highlights the importance of knowledge by holding the stone tablet so close to her chest, where the heart is actually located. If we will interpret this even further, we can sense how vital it is for a nation to instill the gift of knowledge to the hearts of the people as a way of solidifying progress and edifying the moral state of each of its citizens.
One last possible interpretation that can be implied to the Statue of Liberty tablet is the notion of associative enlightenment together with the torch. Clearly, the torch is the primary symbol of enlightenment, but the tablet can also imply the importance of being enlightened in order to receive the gift of knowledge and to pursue the passions residing within one's heart.
It was during the time of the statue's creation that the world was experiencing a global scientific revolution wrought by the worldwide impact of the Enlightenment period. And it is also during these times that all the revolutionary and civil wars were fought in response to the growing demand of freedom and independence in both the U. S. and abroad.
Because of the importance of these historical events, they were put into a special position where all the legacies of the past should be imprinted, namely, the heart. And as previously mentioned, the proximity of the Statue of Liberty tablet to the chest implies a certain relationship that connects and highlights the two important elements necessary for a nation to prosper, which includes knowledge and passion. http://www.statueliberty.net/Statue-of-Liberty-Tablet.html
\
I read several more sites on this statue to see whether any of them would include a reference to Moses. None did.
Feiler's whole point here seems to be centered on Emma Lazarus' poem - the one that moves everyone who reads it - every time! BF claims that the poet channeled Moses as she was "sparked by an emotional Jewish awakening" on a visit to Ward's Island where thousands of refuges had been "dumped."
Feiler attempted to link Bartholdi's inspiration for the symbols and design of the statue to Moses, but an historian of the statue, Barry Moreno, seemed reluctant to agree with him - Feiler at one point asked him - "Was Bartholdi aware of this lineage? Did he purposefully connect Liberty's nimbus to Moses? "
-"I'm not sure where he came up with this idea," Mareno answered. "Was it the Hebrews? The Greeks?"
I'm with Moreno - I'd have to see some definitive sources that indicate that Bartholdi had Moses in mind when he conceived this statue. It's an interesting idea - but not substantiated, in my opinion.
Jean, here's a link to the Archived discussion of Matthew Pearl's novel -
The Last Dickens (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=840.0)
You might enjoy it - Matthew spent quite a bit of his time discussing his latest book with us.
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Joan - thanks so much for that info on the statue and for the link to "Dickens."
I hope we are not finished w/ the S of L section because i had a lot of questions about it and i need to go look up some of the answers. I haven't had time to do that, we've had sev'l family crises this week.
I didn't understand the Trachtenberg quote about "Liberty's tablet - particularly the way it is borne forward is an unmistakable allusion not only to political events but to the great Mosaic tradition".........HuH?
Also on pg 186 BF mentions "the significance of the S of L holding a tablet of law." As Joan's quote notes the "tablets" simply have july 4th on it to signifiy how important that date is not only to the United States, but has been for people all over the world who have since rebelled against there gov't and fought for their freedom.
As for a tablet of law - the tablet says 1776, not 1787, which is when our constitution was written - our LAW. .............
more to come..................jean
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Only one more week?!! We're just barely over half-way through the book!
I don't think it is possible to discuss a Feiler book in one short month.
We'll just have to hit the highlights, I guess...if we can find them.
Thanks for listing the Buddhist precepts, ANNIE. I had only a vague
notion as to what they were.
I, too, am finding the Statue of Liberty a very weak link in Feiler's
presentation. It might have been better to skip that one.
The post-Civil War changes is, I believe, an important observation.
JOANP mentions Darwin. Also, the big increase in immigration of people from different cultures and religions was bound to bring changes.
Then, the first flight at Kitty Hawk occurred in the first decade of the 1900's. The Quantum Theory makes it first appearance, and Sigmund Freud published "The Interpretation of Dreams". Big changes, indeed.
Max Planck Formulates Quantum Theory
Sigmund Freud Publishes The Interpretation of Dreams
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I agree with JONATHAN, Feiler is engrossed in his subject. VERY.
I agree with JoanP. I see no connection between Moses and the Statute of Liberty. As JEAN said, HUH??
You do not have to be an immigrant to these shores to feel the symbolism or the significance of the Statue of Libery; I was just struck dumb (unusual for me) when coming home from a trip to Europe and to see the Lady.
Hi, ANN! Glad to see you are back, that can't have been easy.
Just a few remarks:
Pg. 162 - Feiler states that Lincoln understand what slavery was because he came from dirt.
Oh, come on. He , Lincoln, was free. No one, however poor they may be, could understand slavery unless they had been a slave. Hasn't Feiler read any books about slavery??
It is very sad, very very sad, to read on pg.204 that a rabbinic student does not want to admit he is studying religion and feels our society is science driven. This student continues:
"With our scientific eyes we can distinguish between true and false. With our religious eyes we can distinguish between right and wrong."
Is he saying that we have no conscience without religion? Is that true?
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NO! NO! NO! Somewhere, maybe in Story of Civilization, we had that conversation about whether one can be moral w/out being religious? YES! YES! YES!.......................I had a note on that comment also Ella..............jean
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In catching up with the recent posts, I thought repeatedly that even though at times Feiler's comments and discussion of Moses vs the contemporary world seem convoluted, it may be just that Feiler himself is reaching out - beyond what his previous works have been focused on and therefore what readers have come to expect about his writing.
And, by the way, yes indeed it would be helpful to have a background in Judaica to understand some of the thoughtful historical prompts which Feiler includes in his work and the back and forth leads which he inserts into his comments. For readers who have enjoyed Feiler's previous books, this one may NOT be easily understood or well received. He is an author who has obviously made a turn in his subject matter, but perhaps that is a stretch for the better or just a U turn, which will eventually take him back to exploring anew his more understood former work focus. And as an after-thought, it may be that as he has had to cope with recent serious health issues, he also chose specifically to redirect his research, writing and publication thrust.
Mahlia
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I skimmed to the chapter on the statue of liberty. So far I am seeing much of this book as a stretch of history.
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I am not seeing so much a stretch of history but a string of thoughts attempting to show us a connection of our country's history and how it might have been affected by the OT bible and the 5 books of Moses. I think that the more he researched, the more he found a long thread from the Bible and the Five Books to the founding and growing of our country. Could he maybe have applied these connections to the founding of other countries?
JoanP,
If he uses the 'exodus' in his comments on Liberty, hasn't he brought Moses and the Israelites plight as refugees into his thoughts on the statue and what she represents to arriving immigrants to America? The sculptor's reason's for using each decoration was very thin and sort of ridiculous.
Joanthan,
Does Cecille B. Demille deserve our attention here. Was he really trying to show us where we were going wrong by becoming more secular? By accepting communism? Was this not the time when Joe McCarthy was out scouring the woods for spies?
Have anyone come to the 'comic book' section yet?
I like what Jean and Persian have to say and and I agree with Babi that we cannot do more than skim these last chapters.
I wish we could read your notes, Jean. And Babi's!
Ella,
Maybe we need to suspend all disbelief? This is BF's presentation of his premise on our country's connections with the plight of the Israelites and Moses leadership. He starts with Columbus, then the Pilgrims, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, Ward Beecher, HBS, Slavery etc etc.
Yes, we did have a long conversation in SOC about morality or lack of it without religion. And once again, I will ask my same old question. Whatever happened to Natural Law? Instinctive but there. Even in religion classes, I was taught about natural law first.
International meaning of Natural law
Natural Law, God, or nature, or universal reason has given humanity a law from which the norms of all human law must be derived. The role of human beings is to simply deduce natural law correctly. There is very little agreement on the definition of "right reason," however.
And there is St.Thomas of Aquinas's reasoning:
Humans are capable of discerning the difference between good and evil because they have a conscience. There are many manifestations of the good that we can pursue. Some, like procreation, are common to other animals, while others, like the pursuit of truth, are inclinations peculiar to the capacities of human beings
IMHO, the history that we have learned or relearned here has given us another way considering our past.
I spent some time watching "Walking the Bible" video when I wasn't watching the olympics this past weekend. While enjoying the author's trip of 10,000 miles, I became aware of how many people there were on earth before Abraham said "One God is the correct way to believe". It wasn't that long ago. What? 4000 years?
Ginnny
Hang in there. We are so glad you are continuing to read along with us.
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Ann and Persian, after reading your posts I'm trying to look with fresh eyes at what BF is attempting to do in these pages. While we seem to agree that he stretches the facts to prove connections to the story of Exodus and Moses, he doggedly continues on with his premise. He wrote of Emma Lazarus - " It took a Jewish poet to ignite a welcome to immigrants." In the same chapter he writes, that something unexpected has happened...until now linking America to Moses was done by Protestants. At the turn of the 20th century millions of Jews showed up on our shores, bringing with them the importance of Moses and the Torah.
He writes of C B. DeMille - "He believed the biblical prophet could lead the world to the promised land of peace and prosperity." What do you think? Did DeMille succeed in "turning Moses into the public face" - in his attempt to promote biblical morality in film? BF thinks he did as his "10 Commandments" and "Charlton Heston were box office hits - de Mille intended to saving the world - asking the question "whether men ought to be ruled by God's law or the whims of a dictator."
Ann, I was fascinated to read of Jerry Siegel's comic book characters - Superman, Spiderman, Captain America, etc.. Never did I consider Superman's Jewish identity - (or his connection to Moses!) I will always think of this connection when reading of Superman, the Kryptonite with superpowers - in a strange new land.
When I consider Emma Lazarus, de Mille, Jerry Siegel, I now find myself wondering- isn't this exactly what Bruce Feiler is doing with this book? Isn't he "reforging the Moses image and the central theme of the Exodus story on the American experience in the same way these writers, poets, film producers have done? He certainly has given us plenty to think about.
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Hmmm. I didn't think the rabbinic student was saying we have no
conscience without religion, ELLA. It seemed to me he was saying that
religion can give us better insights into right and wrong, an insight that our conscience leads us to seek. 'Religion' as such has also been
known to lead us astray. As JEAN emphasizes, people can be moral without being 'religious'.
MAHLIA, I hadn't heard about recent health issues re. Feiler. I find
that somewhat alarming, as he has been such a source of new knowledge
and understanding for me.
I think we have to bear in mind that although Moses and the Old Testament are not prominent in influencing our thinking today, Feiler has provided ample evidence that they were in the early days of our history. It is not a stretch to make that observation.
I like what Karie Diethorn, the colonial life expert, had to say. “You
have to remember the cultural life of these people is so vividly informed
by the Bible. It’s not the same as saying they were religious, but it is
the common language of all members of that society.”
And, “The language of religion is so ingrained in their culture in the form of the stories, the aphorisms, the proverbs, and the characters, and this religious language is readily adopted as the language of liberty…”
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Babi
I had a mother who not only quoted the bible (that she was supposed to know anything about as she was a Catholic) but Shakespeare to us all the time. My favorite was: "To thine own self be true." A good reminder for all of us.
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From Ann's post #220
'Does Cecille B. Demille deserve our attention here?'
He certainly does. Let's do another stretch. A stretch after all is good for the mind as well as the body. If Moses is alive and well today, he owes as much to C.B.D. as he does to pharaoh's daughter.
How striking to have Moses rediscovered on Sunset Boulevard and given the full Hollywood treatment. But wasn't he always fortunes's child? Mansions and palm trees after the rushes and reeds of the Nile and growing up at pharaoh's court. What a privileged life. Of course he was most alive for his people in the Lower East Side, where the yiddish poets had a great difficulty finding even a blade of grass. Onthe other hand, could one even guess at how many Mosese came out of the LES to transform America? They must have soon realized that the Statue in the harbour represented challenge and opportunity even more than refuge.
Chapter 8 has many curious things in it, not least the humor. Feiler, given an opportunity to try on the robe worn by Heston playing Moses, was afraid to lift up his arms so as not to turn the world up side down accidentally. Fearful of doing a cataclysmic stretch?
America was given another life with the arrival of the refugees. With them came the birth of...' "The American Dream is a Jewish invention." It's a profound idea, because once Hollywood, comics, and other pop media invent this idea, they help make it a reality.' p225
What a different America than the one created by the Puritans. Reference to the Beechers got me digging out a biograpy of the family by Milton Rugoff. I can't resist quoting from it:
page 8. 'There is hardly a stranger story in American history than the way the iron creed of a very small sect, the Pilgrim Puritans, became the dominant code and source of the overall attitude toward life of most citizens of early America. The Purians were fiercely independent, curageous and tough in the best sense. But their way of life was born of the needs of men and women who began as an embattled and fanatical minority, became wandering refugees and came to rest in a far-off wilderness where survival depended on loyalty and industry and on popitiating the God for whom they had suffered so much. Wringing their substance, as Harriet Beecher Stowe describes it in one of her New England novels, POGANIC PEOPLE, out of the teeth and claws of reluctant nature, on a rocky and barren soil, under a harsh, forbidding sky, they made a God in their own image and a religion in the spirit of their disciplined lives.'
If only they had had a Moses to lead them.
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I find I am going to have to skim through the next chapters as I am at the statue. I find it slow going.
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JONATHAN, I love your post! What a refreshing take on DeMille's
contribution to the legend. I think you're right. My only reservation is
that a great many people left the theatre with a number of misconceptions
and took a great deal of fiction for fact.
Thank you for that quote re. the Pilgims. It does much to explain their
strict laws and stern punishments. A harsh life doesn't leave much room
for personal indulgences.
In the interests of quick scanning, a few things caught my eye.
This observation seemed apt: "the American story....had become so
muscular that even objects with little transparent connection to Moses
could be reforged in his image". I do think this is a good answer to
some our objections in that regard.
I was startled to read that in the Reform haggadah, an American flag is
added to the seder table, along with a new question and answer. I can't
help but think that this is intended to assure others of their loyalty. The answer, "America is the child of the Old Testament" certainly reflects what
Feiler has been saying.
I had questions about the study done by Mr. Britt of Virginia State Univ.
He found 35 literary works featuring Moses between 1959 and 1998.
That is 139 years. I can't help but wonder how significant that is. How
does it compare with works featuring other highly prominent persons?
I'm sure it doesn't hold a candle to the number of works about Lincoln,
for example.
Feiler writes that DeMille's spectacular "unmoored" Moses from the Bible, and that this made him a "polemical figure in the great debates of
the day, which is one reason he stayed relevant". I can see that may
be true. Haven't we seen many guideposts and tenets 're-worked' to
make them relevant to a new generation?
My last comment of the morning. A quote from the opening cards of
the film: "The Ten Commandments are not rules to obey as a personalfavor to God. They are the fundamental principles without which mankind cannot live together."
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Babi, we were posting at the same time. Sorry about that!
Jonathan,
What good coverage you have given us from Chap 8. I thought that CBD's ideas for his movies were quite encouraging for folks who wanted to be reminded of their faith.
I had not thought of Moses's privileged life in the pharoah's home as his being lucky. Almost as lucky as Joseph!
Is Moses still alive for the Jews who live in our world? How do they treat him or explain him? Do they pray to him? Or speak about his presence in their lives?
Was there not a "Moses" among the Puritans? Too bad. They seemed so staid and strict. Does fear of God do this to humanity? or is that the judgemental streak in all of us?
But I see that you have respect for them and their accomplishments in their new 'Promised Land'.
When we read about the beginning of comic books by two Jewish writers, are we surprised? Unable to crack the code for being published in regular books, they went another way and were successful. As JoanP says, "Never did I consider Superman's Jewish identity - (or his connection to Moses!) I will always think of this connection when reading of Superman, the Kryptonite with superpowers - in a strange new land." It just gives one another story to tell about our history in this 'strange land'.
Ginny,
Don't skim if you don't have to as these final chapters are quite interesting and worth your time. You don't have to comment, just enjoy this author's take on our history and Moses.
Babi,
Our author, Bruce Feiler, has been battling a sarcoma of some length in his femur? (upper leg bone) for two years and so far his treatment has been successful. The drs removed that bone and replaced it with maybe? a titanium one. He was using a cane when we heard his talk on this book and explained why. He has since written a new book about the Five Fathers Who?????? which is all about these five men who would take his place when needed. Its comes out this Spring--March or April??
Your quote about the 10 Commandments reminds of that saying, "The commandments are principals, not suggestions."
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Babi,
Yes, a polemical figure since CBD unmoored him. Does that make him a saint in some folks lives?
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Oh, no, ANNIE, no praying to Moses. Jews pray only to God. No sainthood, either. Just respect for the messenger and leader who
delivered them out of Egypt and gave them the Law.
I think Robert Franklin (another person I'm glad to learn about) said
it very well. Moses....."Number one, the imperfect figure. And nuimber two, that reluctant figure who finally gets pushed onto the stage and says, 'Okay, dammit, I'll do this.' "
I like what C.L. Thurston said, too. "...in every crisis God raises up a Moses, especially where the destiny of his people is concerned." Were you aware that the Hindu religion teaches this also? That whenever
the good faces overwhelming wrong, God raises up a man, a sort of
viceroy, to lead people to the right path. Not only their Krishna, but Moses, Christ, Buddha, Mohammed....all the great religious figures are
raised up by God in times of need, in the Hindu belief.
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I have to admit that I wasn't aware of the frequency of the duck-and-cover drills that our children faced every week as Katherine Orrison mentions. She speaks of who Moses was to her as a child, watching the movie. "Because what it said to me was you can be black, you can be white, you can be a nonbeliever but Moses is a universal guardian. I think the reason baby boomers emraced the movie is that it spoe directly to our childhoods." A universal guardian! I like that, because here's a person who is very humble and most unsure of himself but rising to the occasion when asked to do so by his God, his Lord and Master.
What a sad commentery when Orrison tells of losing her friends, in the 50's, because her parents were divorced. Children can be so cruel! But because of the movie, "The Ten Commandments", this little child was so impressed with Moses and the plagues, that on the first Passover after she saw the movie, she went to her refrigerator, took out some lamb chops and spread the blood on her front door. She shocks BF, when she continues her story, "I've done it in every place I live. I do it here!" That would be in Hollywood and she shows the author her front door which has faint reddish brown streaks on either side.
And BF recalls Exodus 12: "You shall observe this day throughout the ages, as an institution for all time." Moses was still alive in the Valley of Sin, says our author.
So, now we meet Cecilia Presley, DeMille's granddaughter who says that her grandfather was her life. "To him religion and science were not incompatible." she tells BF. "Why did he remake "The Ten Commandments?" and not "The King of Kings" since he was so interested and believed in Jesus"? asks the author. And Presley says, 'Because Moses is a more universal story than Jesus, and in the fifties a more relevant story. Moses is the antithesis of communism and Grandfather hated communism. He said terrible things happened to countries who had no god."
When the movie came out, CBD paid to put the Ten Commandments in public squares across the country.
Then a judge in Minnesota, told a juvenile criminal, he would suspend his sentence if the boy would promise to keep the Ten Commandments. "What are the Ten Commandments?" asks the boy. The judge then spent years distributing 100,000 framed prints of the commandments plus 250,000 comic books depicting the story of Moses.
From that came CBD's offer to have Paramount's promotion dept. pay for the granite monoliths of the commandments to be placed on courthouse lawns, in city halls, and in public squares in every city where the film played. More than 4000 were made, and CBD dispatched Heston, Brynner, abd other stars to attend the dedications. A publicity stunt for Paramount became the basis of a landmark decision U.S. law that allowed the 10 commandments to be displayed on public property but not in courtrooms.
A movie! and it accomplished much more than any movie had before.
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We've had a death in the family, so i may not be here for the rest of the week. I will read your posts when i get back.........as i said - and have said in some discussions before - i may not have read this book, or maybe not finished it if not for this discussion. Even tho that is true, i have enjoyed the process, and as i said before, all of your postings......thanks for the intellectual exercise. I'll try to get back in, but am not sure i will have time..............jean
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Jean,
I will keep your family in my good thoughts and prayers as they say goodbye. We just buried my BIL last Wednesday so I know what all are going through.
I am glad that you have stuck in there with us and hope you can post one last time towards the end. The site will remain up until March 2, for late posters. Thanks so much for being part of this more and more interesting book.
I do not think that Moses was one of our founding fathers but I do think that the people who came here to what they called their "Promised Land" were very bible oriented and their language used bible quotes as casually as the rain will fall.
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I'm sorry to hear of the loss in your family, JEAN. If you are unable to
get back, please know how much I enjoyed your posts.
One small note... I was struck by Robert Franklin's remark. "And the
fact that we weren't sitting behind desks, but were walking, making a
claim on public sparce, was important.' He is so right. It was the active, on the streets support of so many people that gave the Civil Rights Movement it's power.
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Well, I had to smile at "Moses in Red, White and Blue - Uncle Sam, "a surrogate Moses." DeMille cast Americans, all Americans, a blend of Christians and Jewish themes as Israelites, united now against communism. Was this true - or wishful thinking on BFeiler's part?
Speaking of comic books, did you see where Jerry Siegel's first Superman comic book published back in 1938 sold recently for a million dollars? I just had to do a quick search on the influences that inspired J. Siegel - to see if Moses is mentioned anywhere else but in America's Prophet - does anyone else see Superman in the Moses role? This page might be of interest -
"Because Siegel and Shuster were both Jewish, some religious commentators and pop-culture scholars such as Rabbi Simcha Weinstein and British novelist Howard Jacobson suggest that Superman's creation was partly influenced by Moses,[42][43] and other Jewish elements. Superman's Kryptonian name, "Kal-El", resembles the Hebrew words קל-אל, which can be taken to mean "voice of God".[44][45]. The suffix "el", meaning "(of) God"[46] is also found in the name of angels (e.g. Gabriel, Ariel), who are flying humanoid agents of good with superhuman powers. Jewish legends of the Golem have been cited as worthy of comparison,[47] a Golem being a mythical being created to protect and serve the persecuted Jews of 16th century Prague and later revived in popular culture in reference to their suffering at the hands of the Nazis in Europe during the 1930s and 1940s."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Influences
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fe/Action1.JPG/220px-Action1.JPG)
(from the first issue back in 1938)
Did you save yours?
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Babi - I think the parallel between MLK and Moses in one of the stongest examples Bruce Feiler brings to our attention in his book. I hope we don't skim through the Civil Rights section...
King, the so-so public speaker, weak, fleeing his past, can't speak well, yet a leader, ...full of self doubt and yet rises to the the occasion and saves the day.
I see MLK more as America's Prophet - than Superman, for example.
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Did anyone else see Glenn Beck tonight? Bruce Feiler announced on his blog on Wednesday that he was going to be on this program. There were three authors telling about their books and Bruce Feilor speaking on his take on the Statue of Liberty. And there was Glenn Beck reading Emma Lazurus poem as he thinks it should be read. The other two authors--one had written about big country's leaders and the other one was entitled, "The Survivors Guide". Good segment and a surprise!
Bruce Feiler is the first author to speak so watch this:
Here's a link: http://video.foxnews.com/?playlist_id=86917
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My book is back at the Library, but I am reading all the posts. I love movies, particularly the old ones, and whether I have seen them before or not sometimes I watch the good ones on TV again, being more adept, I think, at listening. At first view and particularly when I was younger, my taste was very different.
But for some reason I never saw the TEN COMMANDMENTS. At one time I remember thinking they shouldn't portray biblical figures, leave something to our imagination, our own viewpoints; much the same way that I disaproved of our church having a play at Easter portraying Jesus' crucifixion. Leave it in the Bible, please, I beg and not in the human realm. But, of course, that's a personal opinion.
Superman, MLK - Moses' figures. I leave it to Feiler.
It was a good discussion. Thanks, Ann, for bringing the book to our attention.
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So now we come to Martin Luther King who, IMHO, is Moses to the African Americans in our country. And as we read this part, we meet an unfamiliar novelist Zora Neale Hurston who studied Ethography at Barnard College and discovered that Moses had been a preeminent figure in voodoo as as other religions across the Carribean and Africa. She says "The worship of Moses recalls the hard-to-explain fact that wherever the Negro is found, there are traditional tales of Moses and his supranatural powers that are not in the Bible." She claims that Moses power doesn't flow from the Ten Commandments. My question? How did these people in the other countries hear of Moses?
Inspired by another preacher, Franklin, MLK brought the message of self reliance to his people and urged them to demand their freedom in the freedom marches. He stressed that besides liberation, his marchers must develop standards of dignity and self-respect. He predicted that he would not see "the promomised land" on the eve of his death. "Freedom from evil is slavery to goodness" said King. And with that goodness comes certain duties--to respect others, to respect yourself, not to strike back and to practice non-violence. Freedom, in other words, comes with responsibility." The twin message of America's founding---revolution with constitution--now becomes the watchword of America's refounding. Once again the language points to the Exodus and Moses and the ten commandments.
We hear Andrew Young say to BF that we live in biblical times. He even tells of growing up fifty yards from the German American Bund. I have to look that up. Here's one description:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005684
A pro German group, strongly anti-semitic and anti-Communist and who supported Hitler.
In this chapter we find the connection of the Jews to the MLK and his peaceful marches. The Jews felt so strongly supportive of MLK, that they joined him in Selma, Alabama 1961, on the first march.
They were surprised to discover that the African Americans heard many sermons quoting Moses and the Israelites in their churches. That the Exodus strengthened these souls and gave them the confidence to insist on their freedom, rang true with the Jews. King and Rabbi Heschel, a Polish rabbi emmigre' who had see what Hitler could do, formed a sort of partnership.
We learn that a number of founders of the NAACP were Jewish. Two thirds of the Freedom Riders were Jewish as were 50% of the Mississippi Summer volunteers of 1964. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 were both drafted in the conference room of the Reform Jewish Movement in Washington. Amazing!
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In his last speech, MLK refers to the many changes taking place around the world...the battle
against apartheid in South Africa, Kenyan independence in 1965, Ghana independence in
1957. These movements must have fed and strengthened one another, don't you think?
Who was it said, "There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come."?
I was struck sharply and painfully by the truth of Bayard Rustin’s words to MLK..”…I don’t see how you can make the challenge you are making here without a very real possibility of your being murdered.” It was true, and these men knew it, and went ahead anyway. Not just a slim possibility, but a very real one. I don’t know how they did it.
I do know that while I rejoiced and was proud when Barack Obama became our first African-American President, I was also tense with anxiety that some blind idiot would try to kill him.
His risk is higher than most of our Presidents, and I'm sure he knows it. He never lets that
awareness stop him from doing, publicly, whatever he believes needs doing. He has my deep
respect.
It’s sad, ironic even, that a man of Martin Luther King’s fame, education, credentials, honors, and gifts was killed on the balcony of a small motel because he couldn’t get rooms anywhere else in the city. He died supporting a protest by a group of wronged sewer workers.
Rev. Kyles was right. The premature deaths of great leaders does more to establish them as heroes and legends than a long life could have done.
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I am at the end of the book. I want to thank all who came in here and participated in this most interesting discussion. Its been a great pleasure to hear from all of you. Did anyone click on the link to BF talking about his book on Glenn Beck show and Glen reading Emma Lazarus as he thought it should be read: Pretty powerful stuff.
The book has certainly left me with much to think about and I am going to try to pick up one or two of the titles that he mentioned throughout his story.
Attention:
I have asked, on all sites that I can, for prayer for my 53 yr old daughter, Barbara, who is fighting for her life right now as she tries to get over having a crashed immune system and poorly functioning lungs. She is an asthmatic so every infection she gets lands there. The drs have advised against going to the hospital as she could just make herself more ill. This has been going on since November. Please keep her in your good thoughts and prayers.
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Look what I found in my Spam folder.
Bruce sent you a message.
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Subject: Senior Learn
Dear Ann,
I just tried to log on to your site and post a thank you message. It declared me spam and refused my application! Thank yoiu all for taking the time to read through and discuss the book. Looks like the conversation was heated, and I appear to have taken a lot of hits! Efforts like yours are pioneering and are model ways of bringing people together to share ideas. I am honored to have been included, and I hope we get to work together in the future.
See you on Facebook!
With appreciation,
Bruce
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Oh I Bruce F, I wish you had been able to post here! We would have had the opportunity to explain our concerns about some of the examples of Moses in America, yes, but we also would have thanked you for your research which indeed showed the influence of Moses and Exodus on the early days of our country. I'd have liked to talk with you more about what you mean when you say
"this generation needs a Moses."
You present something to think about when you describes this phenomenon in America - "a generation growing up more successful than their parents." Educated parents have achieved the "promised land" - they have expectations that their children will follow the same path - their path. You tell us that there is a need for males to outstrip parents. Do we agree with this? If this is true, they must find their own fulfullment, come up with a "personal promised land,"- other than that which their parents had chosen.
Can Moses lead the next generation to this promised land of personal fulfillment? - "Caring for others, taking care of neighbors" is a way of defining success - perhaps in a way that our generation did not value enough? I was also interested in the statistics that showed 96% of Americans believe in God, 85% say religious values are important...
I think I can see that, but sense that organized religion and church attendance is no longer so important to the next generation as it once was. I'm not sure I understand what the author means when he says we are a "Biblical Nation" in terms of values that go back to the Bible. Do young people spend time reading the Bible? Can we be a Biblical nation without reading the Bible?
Ann, your Barbara moves to the top of my prayer list - Hopefully prayer, her doctors and modern medicine can find a way to restore her to health.
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I so greatly enjoyed your earlier books, Mr. Feiler, that I was happy to learn of a new one.
This one has made me work harder, but I found a lot I didn't know and that always pleases me.
I greatly admired your analysis of Lincoln's Gettysburg address. I never realized there was so
much classical reference to be found in it. And the plethora of faux funerals for Washington!
It's fortunate he knew nothing about them, as I believe he was a very private man.
So many things to talk about. It is a pity you had difficulty in getting into Seniorlearn. There were so many questions I would have loved to ask you. (Perhaps you lucked out there. ;) )
Best wishes for your future plans. I wonder where you will go next?
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How nice to see BRUCE FEILER take note of our discussion and to compliment our efforts of sharing ideas. It sounds as though he read the posts; I do hope he took note of our admiration for his previous two books ABRAHAM and WALKING THE BIBLE which we discussed in the past.
I hope we may meet with Mr. Feiler here on SeniorLearn in the future with another biblical historical book.
Thank you, MR. FEILER!
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Welcome March! I look forward to the more moderate temps to help me with this frustrated feeling from so much snow that has hit Ohio and neighboring states. I popped in from time to time to read your most interesting posts. How exciting to see Mr. Feiler actually read our posts. I think the biggest compliment an author could ever receive is seeing a heated discussion of his book. Good, bad or indifferent, a book is a success only if it has people reading it and talking about it. So congratulations Mr. Feiler in accomplishing this feat.
I was very excited to begin the discussion and begin learning more about American history. Since I was familiar with the Bible and Moses, there was nothing new to learn, but to analogize Moses to our founding fathers and the creation of America's Constitution and laws and the formation of a united nation, I must say it was brilliant! There were many parts I did not necessarily find accurate, but it did not matter to me because I could clearly see he was able to show us that yes, back then as well as today scripture and Biblical characters will play a part in politics and legislation. I strongly feel we have lost the youth of today and they are not nearly as interested in an organized religion. I feel the generation following the Baby Boomers have become more interested in what's in it for "ME". The country is changing, and I believe while the statistics show as JoanP pointed out 96% believe in God and 85% say religious values are important, they are not as willing to hold the tradition or the weight in which the Bible or the founding fathers proved to be successful in providing us with a United, moral, peaceful, respectful, disciplined, and strong nation/world. Times they are a changing, and unless we can get our youth more focused on the values and laws that were given to us so many decades ago, I fear we are headed for a decline in human respect and a world of chaos. Or are we already on the verge of it as I speak? Our two parties are fighting not only with each other but they can't seem to agree within their own party. The Progressive movement is trying to become the popular way in the United States, and in seeing the threat of it I sense Americans are beginning to turn back to the conservative way of living, which means they are realizing we must respect life, law, and liberty.
Feiler's book got me to really think about how over the years we have lost so much, we have become a watered down nation, chasing elusive dreams of being more like the Europeans, we've lost our standing in the world, much like the Egyptians wandering in the desert. We must turn back towards our initial values, if we are to become a nation of credibility, credence, and common good for all. Do we need a Moses today? Indeed we do, and each and every one of us can be a Moses. We can do our part in leading our politicians back to the beginning, the Constitution our founding fathers created for us, with the guidance of Moses. WE THE PEOPLE CAN FORM A MORE PERFECT UNION, we can and must do our part, just as Moses in leading the people to the "promised land." Religion and politics...hmmm we were taught to keep religion out of our government, schools, etc., interestingly, religion has always been in from the beginning.
Annie, my prayers are with your daughter and I thank you for a fine leader on such a difficult book to discuss. No criticism intended Mr. Feiler, but I am sure you will agree, when you put these two topics together this is what you would expect. ;)
Jean, my prayers are with you and your family in the loss of a loved one. You proved to be quite the knowledged historian.
Babi, You simply blew me away with your Biblical knowledge, your wisdom is what I strive for.
Mr. Feiler, If you should happen to pop in again, I thank you, for the American history lesson and the extreme amount of work you had to have put into writing this book. My prayers are with you and your family, and pray for only good health for you.
Thank you all, I look forward to sharing many more discussions with all of you fine advid readers.
Think Spring!!!!
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I have to make just one last comment here - it's amazing how current events come together sometimes. It was my BIL who died and we had his service on Saturday. He was born to a Mennonite minister and wife - Jacob and Sarah - in Indiana, 80 yrs ago. As an adult he was not at all interested in organized religion and would have called himself an athiest, altho he and my SIL, an AFrican-American woman, met at a Unitarian Church. As i read on pg 307 BF's comments to his dgts, i tho't "this is Jim to a 'T.'"
BF writes that the second msg of Moses is a narrative of hope. He writes: You should read the Israelites'story, too, and remember this lesson: There is a moral dimension to the universe. Right can prevail over might; justice can triumph over evil. ....You should read the story of Moses and remember to flip a few pyramids yourselves along the way......you should question authority. Over turn injustice. Befriend the stranger, for you, yourselves, were once strangers in a land w/ no hope. Jim was a brilliant man w/ myriad interests including math, painting, flying, photography and computers, but he did not - would never - work directly for a corporation (he did contract work w/ them as a computer programmer, but not working directly for the corporation). He worked at non-profit agencies, teaching less privilieged people about computers AND about life, but in the most quiet way you can imagine. He had a healthy skepticism about authority, especially gov't, always investigating what was true and what was false. All of his life was based on what he tho't the right/fair thing was to do for people.
Somewhere in the discussion we asked the question "can you be moral w/out being religious?" When i answered "Absolutely!" I was thinking of Jim.
The History Internat'l Channel is running a program this week about "The Ten Commandmants." They have many contemporary people discussing the event and emphasize the 600+ commandments and the ambiguity of such commandments as thou shalt not kill. Look for it if you have the channel, it was very good..................jean
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Thanks for the posts concerning our most interesting discussion of "America's Prophet". I hope BF makes it here. I will give him a heads up in his blog plus I emailed him with a link to here telling about all the posts.
Jean,
Thanks for the super post on your impression of the book. Also thanks for the note on The History Channel's TV program about the 10 commandments. I will see if I can get it.
I loved your story of your BIL's active life. He must have been a special man to know. I, too, was in Indiana (Indianapolis)week before last to bury my BIL but, poor soul, never did have much of a life for his last 15 years. But now he rests in peace.
And Bellamere,
I truly liked your forthrightness about this book. Made for a truly more interesting discussion. And, yes we do need a new Moses in this country. Too bad one hasn't shown up yet.
I agree that our younger generation has been taught to think only of me me me. One of my grans was so intense on saying his book report was correct that he avoided all of our comments and suggestions. Probably sorry he asked! hahaha! But, it seems as though they think that adults know nothing.
Have you read any of the Dumbing Down of our Children books?? Not just dumbing them down but showing them that they are always right and the older generation is always wrong.
Babi and Joan, Ella
This has absolutely been an eye opener of a discussion, hasn't it? And I can see that we all need to hear from our author. We have all had such an array of different reactions to each chapter. What fun to find so many opinions honestly spoken. Hey, and we all still speakin' to each other!!
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Ooooops correction.....I meant Israelites wandering.... NOT Egyptians, in my post. :-[
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Hey, Belle, that's all right---we knew what you meant to say!
Thanks for the prayers for my daughter and our family. They are so needed and so appreciated. :)
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Annie - i can't believe that children's books are being "dumbed down." The words in my g-son's 2nd grade books are amazing. Some of the spelling words he's had i know i didn't know until 6th or 7th grade. And the stories in the books are often complicated science/invention stories. Now, that doesn't mean that someone, somewhere isn't dumbing down - altho, i'm not sure i know what that means, until they get to middle school or high school. Some high school history texts i've seen have material that i didn't get until college...........oh well, i guess it's happening somewhere.....................too bad, kids are so sophisticated today, compared to me..........jean
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Jean,
I am going to take this conversation about education to a different place later this year. In the meantime, I have emailed to you, (if your email is available on SL) some links about 'The Dumbing Down of our Children'. We can find a place, maybe later in a Curious Minds discussion, where we can look into this idea.
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Thanks for posting that qote, JEAN. I love the image of young people
flipping a few pyramids. And I have noted (haven't we all) that it is
possible to be 'religious' and not be moral!
ANNIE, thank you for taking on this challenging book for discussion. I appreciate
all the hard work you put into it and you've done a great job. Take a bow. :)
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Shofar echoes and cherry blossoms. Next year in Washington, now that Passover is being celebrated at the White House.
Good to hear from the author. Marvellous work he has done exploring the past and searching for his roots, and how they have served to nourish the promising land.
I've never read a chapter quite like this final Chapter 10: 'A narrative of hope.' What a journey Bruce makes of it, getting to the reasons for celebrating Passover, getting to see Exodus as a perspective from which to view a chosen peoples' fate, remembering the duty to keep its spirit alive, distinguishing between commandment and law.
" And when your children ask of you...you shall say...."
I found it very touching that the duty-bound author's last words are directed to his two daughters.
page 308. 'I will tell my daughters that this is the meaning of the Moses story and why it has reverberated through the American story. America, it has been said, is a synonym for human possibility. I dream for you, girls, the privilege of that possibility. Imagine your own Promised Land, perform your own liberation, plunge into the waters, persevere through the dryness, and don't be surprised - or saddened - if you're stopped just short of your dream. Because the ultimate lesson of Moses' life is that the dream does not die with the dreamer, the journey does not end on the mountaintop, and the true destination in a narrative of hope is not this year at all. But next.
What an awesome thing the author has made of the Moses story. What a towering figure Moses has become for all who care to examine the ancient Jewish scriptures. There he is directing the main event in Jewish history - the escape from Egypt. But was it really a wise move? Even the author has serious reservations.
page 307. 'As I found in my in my own travels in the Sinai desert over the years, no matter how full of hope the Israelites were when they departed Egypt they were leaving the most civilized place on earth for the most barren, based only on the word of a God they'd never actually seen and a leader they barely knew. Moses is the enemy of caution...'
And maybe not such a good leader after all. Exodus, for ensuing generations, became a pattern. And never did they leave voluntarily. Through Acts of God they found themselves expelled from Egypt. Persuaded that they had become slaves they followed Moses into the desert, and from there in an endless search for what turned out to be true but always truncated episodes of freedom. How passing strange. Moses seemingly had no plan. A Joseph he wasn't, who was so good for his people in Egypt
And yet Moses lives on in America. Along with the Puritans, he preceded his people to America to prepare a place for them. Well enough for Bruce to declare that:
'The Passover story is America's story.'
But it will have to be an internal Exodus. There's no where else to go. As for the cherry blossoms. I found the blossom petals that had fallen into my open book as I sat reading it under a cherry tree near the Jefferson Monument many years ago, when I first found my self fascinated by the strange story of the Israelites' strange quest for their own place.
Thanks Ann, and everybody, for the stimulating discussion.
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I just want to add my thanks to Ann for leading the discussion. The DL's put in a lot of time and brain-power leading us thru all the highways and byways of these many book discussions and we are always grateful.........jean
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I want to thank everyone who made this discussion possible. THANKS!
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Here! Here! To echo Ginny Ann, a big thank you to the author for writing the book, for reading our posts, to Ann for seeing us through, keeping us moving in a timely fashion in spite of her own family's troubles, and to each of you who shared your concerns, insights, knowledge. You inspired others to do the same each time you spoke.
Jonathan, an open invitation to you -to all of you. Cherry blossoms will peak at the end of the month - door is open!
Prayers for Ann's Barbara.
Joan
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I'm not sure whether this discussion is still open for posts or not, but I wanted to add my own thanks for the interesting and varied comments throughout the past few weeks. I have been dealing with an unplanned health issue - now resolved - so was not able to join in as much as I had hoped. I laughed when I read BELLEMARIE's correction about "wandering Israelites, NOT Egyptians." My wandering Egyptian is returning home this evening. A good friend will meet him at the airport in about and hour and bring him home. That gift of kindness will cost me Persian tea and chocolate. What a deal!
Best wishes to all as you continue your world visions through literature and vibrant discussions.
Mahlia
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Persian
So glad you were able to comment here. We are leaving it open hoping our author will get a chance to read the latest posts from the readers.