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OUR MARCH DISCUSSION
Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/destinyrepublic/destivnybookcover.jpg)
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DOES THE NAME JAMES A. GARFIELD SOUND FAMILIAR TO YOU?
HOW ABOUT PRESIDENT GARFIELD?
A man and a president almost forgotten, Candice Millard has done a magnificent job in restoring him to modern, popular history in this book and what a good book! What an excellent writer! Try to find a review that does not praise Millard's work.
A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” - - The New York Times Book Review |
"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.
With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard
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Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)
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The book is sitting on my desk, I haven't started reading it yet, but did look at the pictures inside, doesn't everybody? It looks so tempting, so fascinating and I will start it soon. If you have read Millard's RIVER OF DOUBT, about Teddy Roosevelt, you know how the author writes and keeps us interested in the subject.
PLEASE JOIN IN OUR DISCUSSION. POST A MESSAGE!
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Ella and I have been looking for a good non-fiction title for discussion here. As it so often happens it was Ella who first mentioned this title as a biography of our 20th president, James Garfield. How I thought did a simple biography of a rather obscure president who I knew as the unfortunate victim of an assassin before the completion of his first term, rate a title as comprehensive as "Destiny of the Republic?" I just didn't see the short abbreviated term having that much grasp on our history?
Well yesterday I acquire the digital book on the I-pad and read the first 150 pages quickly realizing that this book is much more than a simple biography of an unfortunate President. It is in fact the story of the Republic at that particular time emerging as it was from the agony of a devastating civil war. In the Presidential Election year of 1880, eleven of its States were voting for the first time in two decades. The story of the book is therefore much more than the biography of a single President. It is the story of the Republic re constituting itself with a major city rebuilt after a devastating fire, a new Industrial base with a coast to coast intercontinental railroad system, nationwide wired telegraphy, and an emerging voice telephone system. Also on the other side there were emerging new unconventional cults and confused individuals one of whom was to play out a role cutting short Jame Garfield's first term within 6 months of its inauguration .
You are all Invited to join this discussion that will begin March 1st and complete by the end of March. Just post here indicating your interest. We will require 5 or 6 or hopefully many more active participants.
The book is available at most libraries, in paperback print, or digital for the I-Pad, Nook, and Amazon readers. ALL ARE WELCOME!
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Hi you two. I'll be getting ready for my spring course on the 50s, 60s, 70s, but i'm going to try to join you. I also know very little about Garfield other than he was assassinated. I will be glad to learn new things about him and the period.
Jean
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I hope you can join us, JEAN. Thanks for the post, you might be interested in the New York Times Book Review and the picture of the dying president:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/02/books/review/destiny-of-the-republic-by-candice-millard-book-review.html?pagewanted=all
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I'll order a sample and try to join. Let you know definately later.
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Am reading it now for my February local book discussion group. Will join in this discussion.
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I hope you will join JOANK.
KIDSAL, Good. I'm very interested in what your book group does with the book. Let me know, I might choose it for our local book group!
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I've read the sample, and I'm hooked! I'll be there (Lord willing and the creek don't rise).
Interesting coincidence: the book starts in the Philadelphia Centennial exposition. Last night, there was a program on "Custer's last Stand" which I hadn't intended to watch. But when i saw that it occurred at the same time as the book, I turned it on, and they were talking about how Custer had gone to the Philadelphia Centennial Exposition, and it fired his determination to become a hero. Having never heard of that Exposition before yesterday, let's see how many references to it I bump into before the discussion starts.
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This one sounds interesting. Don't know that I'll comment, but I know I'll enjoy listening to the discussion.
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Happy to learn you are onboard JOANK and MARY I'M SURE YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO RESIST THIS DISCUSSION! ARE YOU GOING TO GET THE BOOK?
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I'll get a sample for my kindle.
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I doubt I will have the time to participate. The book does sound interesting, so I will probably check in now and again to read the mail.
While looking for something else this evening, I found out that this book is an Edgar Award nominee in the Best Fact Crime category. Awards to be announced in the middle of March (forget the exact date).
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Yes, the book follows the life of Garfield's assassin - I hesitate to type this as I don't have the book in front of me but Garfield's death occurred approximately 14 years after Lincoln's assassination. The country must have been so shocked by the two of them, by it all, as we were by both Kennedys and MLK' murders; and it was barely pulling out of the chaos of the Civil War. Garfield served in the war and wanted to complete his term but Lincoln asked him to return to Congress as he needed his friends, allies, there.
I may have this wrong, it's from memory, and I shall be called for it if in error.
FRYBABE, WE'RE HAPPY TO HAVE ANYONE FOLLOW ALONG WITH US AND IF YOU WANT TO POST A COMMENT PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DO SO!
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I am new here. This book enticed me to join. Look forward to the discussion.
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OH, WONDERFUL, EAGLE!!
WE ARE SO HAPPY TO WELCOME A NEW PERSON, IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, JUST LET US KNOW AND WE WILL TRY TO ANSWER THEM. NONE OF US ARE EXPERTS, JUST LOVE TO READ BOOKS AND SHARE THEM WITH OTHERS!!!
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EAGLE, when we get closer to March, we will post a schedule for discussion, for example, how many chapters or pages the first week, second week, etc. And we will put a few questions in the heading which may or may not be answered, it's just to help the discussion along.
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What does this picture of Garfield dying remind you of?
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/10/02/books/review/11BAKER/11BAKER-articleLarge.jpg)
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Thomas Eakins painting, The Gross Clinic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gross_Clinic
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WELCOME, EAGLE! I like your name. Do you like eagles?
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Hello everyone and welcome to all of you who have posted their interest participating in the discussion. I am sure you will find the book an interesting read. I am now about 3/5 th through it. My progress has been slowed since I am highlighting and noting important points for quick access as the discussion progresses. I am even getting use to using the i-Pad's virtual keyboard. Also I digressed to study some of the political history facts from other sources. I look forward to an interesting March discussion.
There is room for many more. Just add your post here indicating your interest.
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MARY, you are in the right period, but think assassination and you will have it. Another clue - president! There, now you know it!
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Lincoln, of course, but the two paintings are similar.
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Wanting to get the sense of the period, i checked the decade in wikipedia and found it quite interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1880s
Scroll down to "technology" to get a running timeline of the development of electrical products, it's as though inventors were just going crazy rolling out new concepts. It sounds so exciting when i read it all compiled like that. We're never really aware of new ideas and inventions when they are happening, in the moment - we have to wait for an "Apple" announcement to know what's been happening. ;D
I think this is going to be fun!
Jean
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I just stumbled on this reading on-line group, and would love to participate. A friend read about the book in the New York Times and gave it to me for Christmas. I've started it, and it is wonderful, for so many reasons. An interesting note about the centennial in 1876 is the efforts made by promoters to "lure" southerners to attend. I too watched the Custer program. I thought it was very compelling, as that whole saga is.
Harry10
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Don't know whether I'll be able to contribute much to the discussion, but I have purchased the book--well ordered it from Amazon which should help me follow along. Other than he was assassinated, I know very little about James Garfield, but I did read somewhere that he was the last president to be born in a log cabin and that he was ambidextrous.
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WELCOME HARRY, we are happy you found us, but don't read too far ahead or you will forget it all by March. We have a few weeks yet and I can tell from your comment that you are a careful reader. We can all discuss the centennial together then.
And DEAN, A HEARTY WELCOME TO YOU! None of us knew much about James Garfield, a forgotten president. But the book and our discussion will bring him alive again in March. We look forward to your participation in MARCH.
MARCH! Will it be a wintry month where you live? I live in Ohio and we are getting a very bad taste of it right now with low temperatures and enough snow to freeze on the roads.
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WELCOME, HARRY and DEAN. I always think of the 1880s as a time of growth and prosperity, but don't know where I got that impression. Definitely, from reading about Mark twain, a time of invention. he was obsessed with inventions (one of the first to use a typewriter) and bankrupted himself supporting inventors.
Certainly the invention of the typewriter marked the beginning of the entry of women into the labor force in large numbers. Employers had tried before (especially during the Civil War) to use women to replace male clerks in offices, but met with too much resistance. However, the introduction of the typewriter, allowed them to introduce a new occupation (the women who filled it were also called "typewriters") and fill the jobs with women. Since they were new jobs, there were no existing workers to protest. Newe technology often serves this purpose: enabling the introduction of a new labor force.
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Welcome Eagle,Dean and Harry. I look forward to reading your comments on this interesting book.
Regarding the 1776 Philadelphia Expedition this was the official United States Centennial celebration. One of the displays not mentioned in our book was a brain tanned buffalo skin tepee- an Indian hunting camp layout including Indian women cutting up meat, meat drying on racks (complete with flys and camp dogs). It was an interesting plaines Indian hunting camp made by Aparado Indians in Colorado. I remember seeing this display indoors at the Smithsonian on my frequent. D.C. visits during the 1980's and 90's. The last time I was in D.C. (about 2001) this exhibit was gone. Hopefully it was just being renovated and is back on display.
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And something else that is missing today and will be missed in the future - letters, hand-written letters! Most of us remember getting them, I'm sure. Part of our heritage will be gone forever, no doubt, because of technology. Who is going to save emails?
Here is a letter from President Garfield to his wife:
http://www.americanpresidents.org/letters/20.asp
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Well you've peaked my interest. I put Destiny on hold at my library. Hope I'll be able to get to it by the latter part of February. Have 20 books sitting here waiting to be read.
Marj
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Happy to have you, MARJ. I think we will have a good group to discuss President Garfield. I'm looking forward to it!
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Thank you for your planned participation MARJ. I think we all will remember this discussion for a long time, and March will be quite a month for all of us.
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Count me in for Destiny, Ella. I have reserved it at our library and of course, it came in early so I will have to reserve it again when we are closer in time to our discussion.
At the moment, I am reading and learning about "The End of Country" by Seamus McGraw. Personal story about FRACKING in Pennsylvana! I am halfway through.
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What is FRACKING?
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Adoannie, is the book pretty even-handed, or is it clearly biased to one side or the other?
JoanK, fracking stands for hydraulic fracturing. It is a method of extracting natural gas and oil by pumping in high-pressure fluids, which is mostly water, into the ground in order to fracture the surrounding rock. After the rock is fractured, the water is pumped out again. I am not sure, but I assume that the oil or gas seeps into the wells following the fractures in the rock.
Here is the EPA site on hydraulic fracturing. http://www.epa.gov/hydraulicfracture/ The EPA also has tons of info on groundwater, the Clean Water Act, and the Safe Drinking Water Act. The Safe Drinking Water Act has a program called the Underground Injection Control program which sets various requirements to minimize risks to groundwater that is classified as potable.
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Thanks. I had no idea.
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Thanks, Ella, and Harold for agreeing to lead this discussion. Please add my name to the list of participants. I have been missing our discussions of non fiction books. You both are great leaders.
Sheila
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I'll second that!
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WONDERFUL ANN AND SHEILA.
Thanks so much for posting and joining in; what a grand group!
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March Book Club Online
Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/destinyrepublic/destivnybookcover.jpg)
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DOES THE NAME JAMES A. GARFIELD SOUND FAMILIAR TO YOU?
HOW ABOUT PRESIDENT GARFIELD?
A man and a president almost forgotten, Candice Millard has done a magnificent job in restoring him to modern, popular history in this book and what a good book! What an excellent writer! Try to find a review that does not praise Millard's work.
A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” - - The New York Times Book Review |
"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.
With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard
| DISCUSSION SCHEDULE: |
| March l | Part One (Plus Prologue) |
| March 9 | Part Two |
| March 17 | Part Three |
| March 24 | Part Four |
Some Topics to Consider
1. Why did our author, CM, put this Long Island Sound shipwreck of 1880, a tragic story, as an introduction, a Prologue, to her book? Why does she hint that Guiteau might be insane?
2. The end of the Civil War was April 19, 1865; Lincoln had been assassinated April 14, 1865. Yet 11 years later, the country was celebrating a fair! It had progressed to the point where it could have a centennial celebration? After such a deadly war? Does that seem obscene?
3. The inventions of technology and advances in medicine were magnificent during this period. Can it compare to modern times (which I will narrow down to my llifetime -1930 to the present day). In your mind, what one invention has been most meaningful to you?
4. Garfield, 44 years old, a father, an educated man who believed that education was “salvation”; it had saved him from a life of poverty, was a veteran of the Civil War and a father of six when we first meet him in our book. He read Shakespeare to his children? He “hoped that they would come to appreciate stories that do not come out well, for they are very much llike a good deal of life.” Do you agree that tragic stories should be read to children?
5. Guiteau and Garfield both were saved from drowning in different circumstances. Both believed they were saved for a purpose. Do you find this strange? If so, why?
6. “I so much despise a man who blows his own horn, that I go to the other extreme………I have so long and so often seen the evil effects of the presidential fever upon my associates and friends that I am determined it shall not seize me.” Could any candidate become president today with this attitude?
7. In 1880 the Republican Party was sharply divided into two warring factions. The Stalwarts and the Half-Breeds; if you had been a republican which of those would you have been in?
8. We no doubt, as a country, have lost many good men as presidents because they were not good orators. Is there any remedy for this situation?
9. The New York Customs House was the largest federal office in the USA at the time; today the Department of Defense has the largest staff. Does this fact say anything about our country?
10. “My name must not be used, they will ruin me.” - An unusual man, an honest man, a loyal man. Would you have voted for him? Did the public know enough about him?
11. Garfield was shocked, sickened? Could he not have resigned right then? Taken his name out of the nomination in some way?
12. “Sit crosslegged and look wise” was the advice given to Garfield when he was considering stumping for his candidacy. Lincoln never gave a speech on his own behalf. Wouldn’t work today would it or could it? Are we a bit tired of TV's ads and political campaigns? How much time would you say you listen to political news a day?
13. Isn’t it rather fun to read that politics has not changed much for more than a hundred years - financial and immigration scandals still issues in a campaign?
14. It has been rumored that both Lincoln and Kennedy had premonitions of their death in office. Garfield’s sentence in a letter has a similar indication - “There is a tone of sadness running through this triumph, which I can hardly explain.” |
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)
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OK, almost certainly this discussion will make with the required 6 or more active participants. I hope and believe it will be more than 6. We'll wait until mid month to make a formal count. Anyone else out there interested in joining the discussion are welcome.
I have completed my reading with my digital copy marked for discussion highlights. It should be a good discussion experience for all. - HAROLD ARNOLD
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I've been called by the library to say i can get the book. I'm not sure if there are others on the reserve list, so don't know how long i will be allowed to have the book, but i'll take notes and try to keep up w/ you...... Jean
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This book should be a great learning experience. Although Garfield's term as President was cut short, he was neither unsung nor forgotten. He received much praise for his military skills and is studied at military colleges to this day. It's said that he was killed as much by his doctors as by his assassin.
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Have the book and started reading.
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Just finished this fascinating story and will get the book again closer to the opening date. Back to the library it goes.
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HORSELOVER, KIDSAL AND ANNIE - DON'T READ TOO FAR IN ADVANCE!! YOU MIGHT FORGET IT ALL BY THE TIME OF OUR DISCUSSION AND IT IS COMING UP VERY SOON.
We are so happy we will have such a good group. Interesting to learn Horselover that Garfield is studied at military colleges today. You must tell us a few instances of why he is not forgotten.
Time to put our schedule for reading in the heading, perhaps? Give you some idea of how we are going to do this?
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If you stop by, you will notice by we have put our Reading Schedule in the heading. We'll have a few suggested discussion points to be put in later.
This is going to be fun and it won't be long now. How fast the time goes!
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Thanks for posting the Reading Schedule. This appears to be a good read. Include me in, if you have not already.
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I have read the prologue, and Part 1. A week apart, and now I need to go back and reread the Progloue! My memory is like a sieve! Most of the time I cannot remember what I ate last night, for dinner. :'(
Sheila
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That's an affliction, SHEILA, that many of us have and not just dinners! You are with us DEAN and happy to have you!
Have any of you read Candice Millard's first book THE RIVER OF DOUBT: THEODORE ROOSEVELT' DARKEST JOURNEY? Good book - what an adventure Teddy Roosevelt had, almost killed him.
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This was emailed to me today - although about WWI history and historians it is a nice article that was also online
http://links.loa.org/YesConnect/HtmlMessagePreview?a=VCsVA-sGlVhRwYGj5H08Yc
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Thanks, BARBARA, for the memory. We discussed MacMillan's book in 2004 - which seems like it was yesterday and yet a long time ago. Here it is in our Archives:
http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Paris1919.html
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Thanks for that site Barbara, i've bookmarked it, looks like something i will want to go back to more then once.
Did anyone notice that one of the Don PAssos books is titled Manhattan Transfer? I wonder if the jazz singing group by the same name knew of that title and identified w/ it some how. Need to see if i can find out about that....... Life and history are full of "connexions" - does anyone remember the BBC show by that name? It connected events thru history - wonderful show!
And thank you Ella for the link to the 1919 discussion, i look forward to reading thru that too.
Jean
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Great drama is about to open in a couple of days, be prepared!!!
Two steamer ships collide in Long Island Sound, many drowned, screams, confusion and chaos in the middle of the night, but one man, a murderer, an insane man who thinks he is God, survives.
A spectacular world's fair is taking place in Philadelphia and the year is 1876. America is celebrating
The country is also thinking, planning a Republican convention to be held in Chicago, just 10 years after the great Chicago fire decimated the city.
You will be reading about the Half-Breeds and the Stalwarts!
Doesn't it sound exciting?
We will be around to take part in all of it. WE HOPE YOU WILL TO!!!
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MARCH THE 1ST! WE ARE OPENING OUR BOOK, OUR DISCUSSION, AND WE HOPE ALL OF YOU JOIN IN TODAY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!.
I will be putting more Discussion Points to consider in this first section (see heading) but let's take the first one if anyone is around this early in the morning.
Actually, it's rather late in the morning for some isn't it? Anway, anyone up? With book in hand?
What is the purpose of a Prologue? I never knew this myself so I would be grateful if you all would enlighten me. And why this tragedy of two ships colliding is important to tell at the beginnning of this book is beyond comprehension. A good story though.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS???
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I thought the prologue set the stage for events that were to come. Survivors, I am told, seem to feel that they have been saved because there is some act or deed they need to accomplish. The act or deed need not be honorable, as indeed Guiteau's was not.
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Good morning, DEAN! Thanks for your comment. So the Prologue is giving us hints of what is in the book! After all, "madness" and "murder" is in the title. Does this make the book more palpable to the public? Is this the way to sell a book, do you think? A book just about Garfield would not do as well as a book about Garfield and the tale of his assassin?
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While running about early today I wondered how this author found out about Guiuitea being on that boat and escaping; but in turning to the NOTES on the Prologue CM apparently learned about the collision and the other facts from The NEw York Times, 1880 and also from the trial - United States vs. Guiteau, 1881.
I'm wondering if our other participants all feel the same about reading Prologues in books. At times, in reading fiction, I skip over the Prologue not wanting to know facts that are better learned (I believe) in the latter portion of the book.
However, in this case I don't believe the author relates any more facts concerning the ship's accident later in the book.
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When I first picked up the book and began reading the prolog, I was confused. What Long Island Sound ship wreck was this? And who was this guy Guiteau who survived the wreck convinced that his survival was due to a special intervention by god who had saved his particular life for a future mission the details of which would later be revealed. At that particular point my knowledge of the details of the Garfield administration was limited to the fact that he had been one of the 4 U.S. Presidents whose term had been cut short by an assassin’s bullet. I did not recognize the name “Guiteau” as Garfield’s killer. Furthermore I was further confused by the book’s title, “Destiny of the Republic!” How in the devil did this guy (Guiteau) even after I came to realize he was the man who had shot Garfield affect the destiny of the Nation?
I guess the fact is that in this case a book is more than its Prolog. Reading on into the book proper progressing through its four parts to the end the real significances of the book is revealed. It is a complicated story of the dominance of party politics in American Governance and how in this particular case a measure of governmental reform came about through Garfield’s chance 1880 election as President, and his short six month term terminated by Guiteau’s pistol shot. And also involved is the unexplained metamorphosis of his ultra conservative Vice President (Chester Arthur) who assumed the presidency on Garfield’s death and in the concluding year of his administration approve the first United States Civil Service Legislation signaling the adornment of the previous “to the victor belong the spoils” policy, that had dominated ‘American governance since the Civil War.
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Hi HAROLD! And indeed. "When I first picked up the book and began reading the prolog, I was confused.[/b]
Yes, I was also, but once past that, the book came alive. If I were an author, I wouldn't do it; however, perhaps CM bowed to the public's apparent need for murder and mayhem. Are we as a nation consumed with such images that the media, in its myriad form, feed us every day that we need such a prologue in books to attract readers?
I hope not. Anyway, it is a good book, a very interesting book, historically factual and exciting actually.
Am hoping all our participants join us tomorrow!!!
THE MORE THE MERRIER! And a hearty welcome to new people!
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I've just started the book and am really enjoying it. Millard is a good writer.
Was surprised to read of Garfield's education -- foreign languages, math and literature. Most political people today have an educational background in law and/or political science. He must have been an interesting person to know.
He also must have been very religious. I thought it interesting that he listed under things he admired about people's growing knowledge of science, of all things, the "laws of God."
There is a good photo in the book of the Statue of Liberty's huge hand displayed at the 1876 Philadelphia Centennial Exhibition.
Thanks to whoever nominated this book.
Marj
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Thanks, MARJ, for the comments on the book. The "laws of God." He would be speaking of the Bible wouldn't he? Don't you think our present day politicians speak of God often also?
Our country was barely adjusting to peace during this time - it was 20 years about after that deadly Civil War - 620,000 injured and dead Americans. I think God was on many minds at the time, don't you imagine?
I'm trying to think of presidents who were not lawyers; I'm sure there have been many. Harold could advise us - Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, all those fellows were not were they? I know you are not suggesting it but I don't think, personally, that a degree in law is a necessity to become a politician. Actually, we should have less of them, perhaps? ;D
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Yes, Ella, our present day politicians speak of God too often, IMO, each trying to outdo the others with how devout they are. I'll be more impressed when atheists are able to be elected to Congress. Then I'll know those who mouth their faith are probably telling the truth and not just pandering to their constituents. As to Garfield's writing about the laws of God, I just found it surprising that he equated religion with science. But, then, he was not a scientist.
As to your remark about so many still suffering the loss of their loved ones from the Civil War, I imagine that was very true. That reminded me of a book I have meant to read, The Republic of Suffering; Death and the American Civil War by Drew Gilpin Faust, regarding how individuals and the nation coped with the traumatic loss of so many in the war.
And, yes, I think it might be better if we had fewer lawyers in Congress, and a few more liberal arts majors.
Marj
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One of the interesting parts of this title is "Medicine." It is fascinating to read about the ways medicine was practised in those times, and to think about the ways history might have been altered if the techniques of modern medicine were available then. I read another book a while ago about another President and his encounters with the medical establishment. He needed to have surgery for an oral cancer. The surgery was carried out in complete secrecy aboard a ship at sea--something that could never happen today. This President somehow survived!
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I have finished chapter 4. I am really enjoying this book! The only knowledge I had about JG was that he had been killed in office.
I am really impressed by his intellect, his working to support himself, that he also taught six classes, and kept up his academic score. I know so much more about many of our other Presidents. JG was an intetesting human being.
Now, I think it is time for me to read about the other "unknowns".
Sheila
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Just popping in for a minute, my son and DIL are moving these three days, so i'm either babysitting or packing.....
I was struck w/ JG's NOT wanting to be president and not campaigning. While here we are in the middle of a campaign where three or four men are demeaning and lying about each other in order to end up being the person nominated by their party! What a turn around!
Jean
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HORSELOVER - so true! We might have had Lincoln longer as a president possibly if modern medicine were practiced in those days; certainly Washington or Jefferson! And every day we learn of another technique in surgery or a new medicine to help folks in need.
If you have read much about the Civil War or even WWI you know how many died of disease, amputations, wounds that could be saved today. My daughter, a retired Army Reservist nurse and now working in the clinic at the VA, knows how quickly good help comes to those wounded and our veterans.
Thanks for your post! Who was the president who had oral surgery at sea? Was it because he didn't want to the country to know? Compare that to President Reagan who when shot yelled from a hospital window to say he forgot to duck! I think he was in a more critical stage than we all realized at the time.
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SHEILAs I'm so happy you are enjoying the book. It is difficult to find a nonfiction book that may interest a lot of people - well, that is true of fiction as well isn't it?
Garfield was certainly a self-made man, in the image of Lincoln wasn't he? Pulled up by his bootstraps as they say! Never ashamed of his ragged clothes! What did you think of his being saved by a twist in the rope when he almost drowned in the Erie Canal?
"I did not believe that God had paid any attention to me on my own account but I thought He had saved me for my mother and for something greater and better than canaling."
And in the PROLOGUE, Guiteau, saved from drowning, also believed he had been saved by God for a purpose. What do you make of these two incidents?
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JEAN, pop in often. Happy to see you!
We must talk more about that campaign of 1880; we are in a similar campaign and soon will be at a convention. This sentence gives us an idea of what it was like:
"Each day had been more bruising than the last, as the crowd had grown louder, the tensions higher, and the delegates angrier."
No TV, no debates, no commentators, just a crowd listening to an speaker and yet it was "bruising." Fortunately, for Garfield, he was a spell-binding orator - a "skilled rhetorician."
"My name must not be used, they will ruin me.”
Why didn't he want to be president? Couldn't he had just resigned?
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THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS. WE ARE SO HAPPY YOU ARE ENJOYING THE BOOK.
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Regarding Marj's comment on Garfields education, he does seen to have had quite a good one. Though his college lacked the glamor of the top tier it was certainly a decent one and he seems to have maintained a post grad contact with it. He was departing at the RR station to attend an alumni evect when he was shot.
I noted also the contrast between his courses and John Adams' at Havard 100 years earlier. Adam's was classical Latin and Greek with a glass of whisky for breakfast. Garfield's included mathematics and (more contemporary) social sciences.
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Ella wrote, "
"I did not believe that God had paid any attention to me on my own account but I thought He had saved me for my mother and for something greater and better than canaling."
"And in the PROLOGUE, Guiteau, saved from drowning, also believed he had been saved by God for a purpose. What do you make of these two incidents?"
Makes for a good story with irony. I don't believe god had anything to do with either, but the fact that they each believed it led them in different directions -- one to push himself to do good and the other to do something horrific.
(A little off topic, but I'm always amazed to hear people say, as in the reports on the terrible tornados hitting the country now, "The good Lord saved us." I then wonder why God didn't spare the others who were killed or lost their homes. Were they "bad" people not deserving of being saved?)
Marj
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I did not attach much importance to Guiteau's belief that God had intervened by saving his life for a later special purpose. I think it is quite common for people who survive such disaster to arrive at similar conclusions. Most of course to not conclude as Guiteau did. We need to probe deeper into the significance of Chapter 1 and its importance to the author's plan for telling the story of her book.
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Responding to #11 in Some Topics to Consider: I wonder if Garfield thought that refusing the nomination would hinder his future prospects for public office. He, according to my reading, did not seek the nomination, in fact, he nominated another candidate. Then once nominated he did not campaign. What a difference in today's candidates.
I'm finding this book very interesting.
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Good point, DEAN. Being a president does rather hinder your future job prospects, doesn't it? I'm not a true historian, but I don't believe any president has become a Congressman after his term is over. Anyone?
Garfield must have been truly inspiring as an orator to be move a crowd as he did at the convention. Is this a first do you think?
Referring to Question #8 could a person become president today if he were not a good speaker? It seems to me that with telepromptors, excellent writers, a good coach, most anyone could indeed pass muster, so to speak? Is that true?
Are the debates we see on television prompted in any way, do you think? Or would one have to be a debater as well?
Just a few thoughts on the events in Chapter 1 - "treacherous peace"
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HAROLD, I just saw your post. The significance of Chapter One?
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Dean, Ella and all: The Republican Convention of 1880 as describe in the book was an Interesting one. As it happened the leading candidate as the convention opened, proposed by the Stalwart wing of the Republican party for the Republican nomination was none other than the former 2-term President, Ulysses S. Grant. Interesting! If he had won the nomination and the election he would have been our first 3 term President. The candidate of the reform minded, Half-breed wing of the party was James G. Blaine., speaker of the House of Representatives. Garfield’s role was simply to make the nomination speech nominating Blaine as the Republican candidate for President. Garfield dutifully made the Speech. But immediately after its finished the speech delegates began a swing to Garfield as the Republican nominee,, a move that quickly acquire momentum ending in Garfield” nomination for President. This unexpected of events was no doubt because the convention was in an apparent dead lock state with the delegates frantically looking to a way out. In any case it happened and James Garfield though he shunned being personally involved in electioneering ended up winning the election. He was inaugurated on March 4, 1881.
Could this happen today? You know, I suppose it could. If in fact two leading Candidates went into the convention near evenly divided and neither would budge there would be no other way but to settle for some 3rd party able to command the majority vote.
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Horselover,: Medicine and the way it was practiced at the time is certainly a topic for discussion. To my Knowledge the only President who eventually died of mouth cancer was Ulysses S. Grant, but it did not occur until years after his term had ended. Quite a few years ago Ella and I lead a discussion on Mark Twain's friendship with the then Ex President Grant. Twain' was responsible for Grant's decision to write and publish his Civil War Memos. In fact Twain helped him write this book that was published just before Grant died of the disease.
The book described the diagnosis and treatment of Grant's disease that as I remember was the burning of the mouth cancers with silver nitrate and other strong acids. I don't recall any of these treatments being done in a ship at sea.
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Google is our friend - the president was Grover Cleveland.
http://oralcancerfoundation.org/people/political_figures.htm
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Regarding Ella's question in Reply #74: Good point, DEAN. Being a president does rather hinder your future job prospects, doesn't it? I'm not a true historian, but I don't believe any president has become a Congressman after his term is over. Anyone?
I don't think you are right Ella. I know of no law prohibiting an ex President from holding any future Job in Government or private. One reason it don't happen is that they are accorded a very special and unique position as ex Presidents. More than just life income but also status and position as members of a singularly unique club. They are sometimes called upon to serve as United States Representatives at foreign state funerals and perhaps other similar semi offical tasks. Also they have their own office space, Secret Service protection, clerks, and secretaries through which they practice and promote their own particular agendas often associated with the establishment and maintenance of their own Presidential libraries housing the historical Archives of their administration.
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March Book Club Online
Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/destinyrepublic/destivnybookcover.jpg)
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A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” - - The New York Times Book Review |
"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.
With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard
| DISCUSSION SCHEDULE: |
| March l | Part One (Plus Prologue) |
| March 9 | Part Two |
| March 17 | Part Three |
| March 24 | Part Four |
Some Topics to Consider
1. Discuss the reason for Chapter VI. 1. Discuss Candice Millard’s purpose in including details of Bell’s legal problems defending his Telephone Patents. Was all this detail necessary for the story?
2. Discuss Garfield’s Presidency as it emerged after his inauguration March 4, 1881. What single duty occupied most of Garfield’ Business Day? Did Conkling man, Vice President Chester A. Arthur pose a particular problem? What particular problems confronted Garfield in filling Cabinet posts with competent men? Who were the men who comprised Garfield’s White House Staff?
3. Discuss Guiteau‘s appearance on the Washington scene. What did Guiteau want from Garfield? What was Conkling’s surprise reaction to Garfield’s appointment of Conkling’s bitterest enemy to head the N.Y. Customs House?
4. Discuss Guiteau’s decision to give up his campaign for a Federal Job and to finalize his plan to kill the President. How did he acquire a gun? What precautions did he take to insure his own safety. Where did he plan to do the deed? In his mind what did he expect the event would have on him personally?
5. Discuss details of the assassination. Why did the first two attempts at the church fail? How did the alternate opportunity at the R.R. Station come about? What steps did Guiteau take too assure his safety after the event?
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Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)
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MaryZ, Thank you for the information on the other U.S. President with Mouth Cancer. I had not known of Cleveland's problem. Those dang cigars are real killers.. Cleveland who live 16 years after his ship board surgery seems to have emerged far better than Grant.
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I was pretty sure one of the early presidents had come back to serve in Congress. It was John Quincy Adams. The time line on this Wikipedia page is on the right side.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Quincy_Adams
Also, William Howard Taft was appointed to the Supreme Court after he was president.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Howard_Taft
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If any of you really want to know more about any past U.S. President's life after retirement simply google on the string:
The Particular Presidents name:Life After the Presidency ie Bill Clinton:Life After the Presidency
enter simply George Bush: Life after the presidence and you will get answers on both of the Bush Presidents.
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THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR COMMENTS. WHAT AN INTERESTING START TO OUR DISCUSSION OF PRESIDENT GARFIELD.
Thank you, MARY, that is what I meant to imply. Garfield had been a Congressman before he was elected President and, as DEAN implied he might have had trouble going back to Congress after the presidency. But as you pointed out, Adams did it. I had no idea, so thank you for that.
What do all of you think about Roscoe Conkling - that "thoughly rotten man" as Garfield called him. A leader of the Stalwarts, "arguably the most powerful person in the country." (pg.16)
Wow! A bit about him: http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h706.html
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This afternoon I will be at my work at the National Historical Park,Mission Espada. This is my regular Sunday Afternoon work..
Also I note that at least 4 or 5 people who had indicated they would participate have not yet checked in. Come on Everybody LET'S DISCUSS!
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Just renewed my book and am finally reading our assigned pages but have to attend a high school band concert this afternoon. I will get back in here later.
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ADOANNIE, that's good news we look forward to hearing your thoughts on the book as soon as you are ready.
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Possibly, HAROLD, it was such a good book that people finished it and either don't want to go back or returned it to the library. THAT HAPPENS!
Or they took a day or so off to recoup their thoughts
So shall you and I and ANN and a few others continue? OF COURSE, OF COURSE.
A good book to discuss.
You know we haven't discussed all those inventions at the Centennial Exhibition in Philadephia. They must have been amazing to those folks who were able to go to the city. The auto was not invented yet but Willilam Ford (Henry's father) was able to travel from his farm in Dearborn, Michigan.
The typewriter, telegraph and Alexander Graham Bell! The Bell Telphone Companies were around forever, weren't they!
In my life, television and the computer, I believe, are the two wondrous inventions that I have marveled at! Still do!!! I was 19 years old when I saw my first television! And I got my first computer in 1997 when I discovered email and the Internet! And Seniornet!
When did you first see TV?
So there are still marvelous inventions yet to come. Mankind is forever curious! And we must discuss medical breakthroughs, as the book later deals with Garfield's medical treatment as he lay dying.
ANN, we will be waiting for your comments! And any other??
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I must add one little postscript! Quoting pg. 9 - "So incomplete and uncertain was the United States that, although it was a hundred years old, it did not yet have a national anthem."
After 100 years! But it had "Dixie" and what was the anthem for the North?? Can't think.
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What impresses me about this Part 1, are the number of new inventions, processes etc that are being touted at the Philly exhibit. Also think that being president of the US is not all that James Garfield can accomplish. His interest in math, science and history is something to pay attention to. He is a very gifted man.
I read the history of John Adams presidency and then his being a member of Congress after leaving the top office. Cited is the claim that he was able to do more in Congress. Also mentioned are are the amazing inventions of his lifetime and I quote : During Adams' lifetime, technological innovations and new means of communication spread messages of religious revival, social reform, and party politics. Goods, money and people traveled more rapidly and efficiently than ever before.[6]
Regarding Ella's question above, #3: Of course, I am amazed the most that the medicine progress of this time has allowed my husband's life to be saved by a VAD invention (heart pump). Its a miracle, believe me!
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HELLO ANN
Yes, indeed, that is the most amazing (I have no better word for it, but there should be) invention that allows your husband to continue. And I would be dead also if not for a pacemaker!!! Which probably did not exist 30 years ago. We are seniors who are privileged to have life continued far beyond our parents or grandparents!
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The first chapter that tells of Garfield"s visit to the 1876 Centennial Expedition certainly reflects a new nation well along in its recovery from the Civil War, poised for a period of economic recovery and expansion. Also the earlier growth cycle beginning at the close of the John Adams Administration in March 1801 had marked the beginning of the first wave of U.S. economic and physical expansion. In particular the the first two decades of the 19th century was marked by the move west of the Allegheny Mountains, and the adaption of the steam engine to drive river boats on the Ohio and Mississippi river systems. The wave beginning in the 1880's seems driven by two growth vectors; first the completion of the RR to the Pacific coast and second vastly improved wire communications through a maturing nationwide telegraph system and the new emerging voice telephone
The new Telephone system seems to have attracted the notice of the Author of our book. She has made the telephone inventor Alexander Graham Bell a character in her story by making him a reoccurring character particularly toward the end where she details Bell's research interest in perfecting an induction device to locate the bullet in Garfield's body. It would be interesting to see if Bell's biographers mention this interest?
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Are you going to read a biography of Bell, HAROLD? Let us know if anything is mentioned about Bell's device.
Go west, young man, go west! Wouldn't it have been something to see the land west of the Mississippi for the first time. Well, a few Indians to be reckoned with, hahah.
Some years ago, we discussed a book about the completion of the railroad to the Pacific Coast.
I have an idea ANN remembers it well. Ginny led the discusion. Do you remember it HAROLD?
LET'S DISCUSS CHAPTER 4 AND THE COMMUNE THAT GUITEAU JOINED. iT'S AIM WAS PERFECTIONISM! It sounded to me as a fundamental religious cult. A socialist experiment?
And it was named the Oneida Community (somewhere in the book I read of the silverware named after this establishment, I'm sure most housewives of my era remember the name)
What did you think of this commune, HAROLD - ANYONE? Any thoughts - say of Waco or other cults?
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THE MANSION HOUSE, ONEIDA COMMUNITY, - STILL STANDING!!
Watch it on YOUTUBE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgPRA3De6EY
Lovely
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail,_Columbia Hail Columbia. This song dates back to the late 18th century. In the 19th century it was sometimes noted as the unofficial US National Anthem. Audubon on the Sailing ship, Dellos approaching England on July 4 1826 in a nostalgic moment brought on by too much Porter (a high alcohol beer), mentioned missing its singing back at his Kentucky home. He also mentioned having an agonizing premonition of a great calamity befalling America. Weeks later in England he heard the news that both Thomas Jefferson and John Adams had died that day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Graham_Bell#Later_inventions Bio Alexander Graham Bell
Indeed this Wikipedia Encyclopedia does mention Bells research and his attempt of accurately locate the bullet logged in Garfield’s body. As our author concluded his effort failed because of the proximity to the metal bed springs under Garfield’s mattress. Well talk more about that in when it comes up in the last week of this discussion.
Regarding my age when I first saw TV, I was 23. It was Jan 1950 when WOAI TV became the first station in San Antonio. I remember attending a trade show at The Gym at Alamo Stadium that had hundreds of brands and models. The cheapest one was$149. It had a 6 inch round B&W tube. Other larger ones were $200 or up to maybe $500 or more. All of course were B&W and I don't think the largest was bigger than 11 inches. I did not buy my own until 1955 but occasionally I watched programs at friends houses. I bought my 1st color TV about 1968, and today its a 40 inch Sharp HD.
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HAROLD, do you agree that the TV is the greatest invention of our lifetime? If not, what?
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Probably not, because the digital computer has so many application in all fields of economic,scientific and social endeavor including television itself. Computers are everwhere
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I'm following the discussion. I have the book, but haven't started it yet (trying to finish up something else first). I usually just lurk in book discussions anyway, without posting much.
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The Move is complete and unpacking is still in process.....so I'm back for a bit.
I did not think it was obscene for the country to have an expo shortly after the war. The country needed to move on, life continues.
The most important invention? Ohhhh, that is a hard one to answer. Personnally, i have always said to my students that we should all be celebrating Margaret Sanger's birthday! Her fight to give women control over reproduction was second only to the cause for women's suffrage, IMo. To think about having 7,8 or 10 or 12 children just overwhelms me. Of coyrse, her cohort in that endeavor was Kathryn McCormick who gave Gregory Pincus almost all of the 2million dollars needed to do the research and testing of the birth control pill. Many funders would not touch that research out of fear of the influence of the Catholic Church.
Now, having said that, the inventions in communications and transportation have had enormous impact on everything in society. All of the 50s and 60s "movements" owe their progress to TELEVISION! The whole world seeing the pictures of marchers and demonstrators and freedom riders being beaten and hosed and jailed brought outrage to the rest of the country motivating govt authorities to act on behave of the demonstrators. Viet Nam war wounded, priests setting themselves on fire, seeing Dr Spock and MLK speaking out against the war encouraged others to feel it was an unjust war and they should speak out.
But now we have the computer connecting the world IMMEDIATELY!
I can't say one more than another, i'm just glad i've had the use of all three in my lifetime!
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John and I have had this discussion before. I maintain that the most important invention was "the pill" - which really gave women the control over their lives. He's an electrical engineer, and says it was the transistor - without which the space program and all the electronics we enjoy/fear today wouldn't be possible. But then we agree that the other one might be correct, too. :D
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Regarding the Oneida Community. This was one of several communal living communities functioning in the U.S in the last quarter of the 19 century. I ran into these before in both high school and college American history courses. I guess I am not surprised that Guiteau would be attracted to live there. Also I am not exactly surprised that his association there did not last long.. Both Guiteau and The Community had their own agendas and neither was flexible enough to conform to the satisfaction of the other. Guiteau left moving out to live in a string of city boarding houses, one after the other in various cities staying in one as long as his landlady could tolerate his growing credit tab. It would seem American Society had not yet established a Credit history checking system.
Somehow today this type of community living experiment seems more appropriate for the 1970's hippie area than the U.S. in the 1870's. History, however, notes that a good deal of new political philosophy was being disseminated in mainstream American thought at this time, including quite a bit of radical Marxian socialist thinking.
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I am impressed w/ what an intelligent, curious, sensible man Garfield was. I wonder "can he be this terrific, or is the author romanticizing his story?
I don't believe that people are "saved" for a reason, life just happens IMO. If there is some controlling factor, why didn't Gaiteau die and Garfield live? Of course, i look at things from what i consider a rational point of view. That scenario makes the most sense for the good of society, but fate doesn't work on sensible.
I think it is helpful to know that much of what is happening today is not new. Many of us have very little knowledge of history and therefore, we think things are so terrible today and they were so much better in the "ole days," and i think people get more depressed about circumstances because of that attitude.
Ella, however, asked if it was "fun" to learn that issues are much the same in politics today. My instinctive reaction is NO! :) i was a young adult in the 60s when we had great optimism that so many of the problems of the time - racial issues, poverty, environmental problems,
etc, would be soved by the 21st century. Arrrgghh! I get depressed when i hear the same
issues still being talked about! I want them solved! But it seems that humanity does change its stripes - yeah, i know that's a bad metaphor. You understand, what i learn most from reading history is that human nature doesn't change over centuries.
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That was supposed to be "humanity DOESN't change its stripes". I'm on the ipad and cannot get back to that part of the msg to change it.
Jean
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Regarding Mable's comment in Reply #101 above,"I am impressed what an intelligent, curious, sensible man Garfield was. I wonder "can he be this terrific, or is the author romanticizing his story?"
Based on the information the Author gave us in the book particularly Garfield's Civil War record in which he commanded troops in battle that seem to have saved Kentucky for the Union. This record would seem to confirm Garfield's standing as an"intelligent, curious, sensible man." Also his post war record in Congress adds further support to this conclusion.
Is the author romanticizing her story? I think the Author is telling the story quite well. In particular I was impressed the way the Author weaves the story fabric beginning with the opening threads on Guiteau, to Garfield at the Philadelphia Expedition, to Bell, back to Guiteau, to -----, to --- --. The result was an easily read, easily comprehensible book.
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SHALL WE CONTINUE WITH THIS BOOK DISCUSSION? ARE ENOUGH OF YOU INTERESTED IN READING AND DISCUSSING IT? PLEASE LET US KNOW!
We have options. We can finish the book next week; making it a two-week discussion. Or discontinue it now?
We await your posts!
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I've finally gotten started reading it. Maybe go for the two weeks? Again, I usually just read in a discussion and rarely post.
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But how can it be a discussion, if everyone is silent!
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Yes, I am still interested. However, I am having trouble finding time to read, and to discuss. I am putting my home up for sale. Didn't remember how much there is to do, when selling a home!
In addition, I am working on my taxes. Groan............... I am sorry that I haven't been keeping up. So, whatever everyone decides to do, is OK with me.
Ella, when my house sells, I will be headed your way. My son, and his family have been encouraging me to move closer to them. A small city, halfway between Dayton and Cinncinatti.
Sheila
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I thought it interesting that Garfield left the Ohio legislature to join the army. How many today would do that? Of course our country's wars today are fought only on battlefields in other lands, so maybe the fact that the war was fought here made a difference. I wonder if others in Congress or state legislatures back then were moved to join the army. But Garfield was young and apparently excited at the thought of fighting.
He did very well in the war for not having served before or having attended West Point. Was there anything that man could not do?
Reading about him as head of the Appropriations Committee in the House of Representatives made me wonder where the government got its money before income taxes were levied much later.
Marj
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As I said earlier, Garfield was so gifted with curiosity that he realized he could never learn enough. (Well, once he changed his path to maturity)The way he competed with his fellow students in the university told us this. To be asked to teach classes before he had graduated is hard to believe. And then, to be appointed the president of what, I think, became Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio at the age of 26 is amazing. Here's short history of Western Reserve which is now an upgrade college prep school which is in Hudson, Ohio,where the original Western Reserve buildings still exist.
http://www.wra.net/page.cfm?p=359
I now find that there is a Western Reserve in Connecticut also but I do think that
Garfield would have chosen something closer to his home farm in Ohio.
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Marifay,
What an interesting question! Let's go find out!
I found lots of articles but wanted a direct answer so will go with it. From Wiki.com:
It was paid for through import duties, excise taxes, and taxes that were divided among the states by their population.
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Per AdoAnnie's research, the govenment's money came from import duties, excise taxes, and taxes that were divided among the states by their population.
Interesting! Maybe we should go back to that. We certainly do a lot of importing. It would sure keep us from starting wars all over, and having some 700-plus military bases around the world. (That's the one thing on which I agree with Ron Paul). Maybe a national sales tax. We could put Congress on a part-time status, and reduce their wages. (fat chance)
Marj
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SHEILA - where? I know those areas fairly well, or used to. Yes, selling a home and all that is so difficult, I did that in 2004 after my husband died. I understand, but it might take your mind off problems to read a few chapters of the book.
FOLKS, tomorrow we begin PART TWO - WAR! We have new topics to consider in the heading.
MARJ, yes, what an exceptional man Garfield was. Like you, I was so impressed with some of his actions; he refused to seek an appointment or promotion of any kind. "I suppose I am morbidly sensitive about any reference to my own achievements, I so much despise a man who blows his own horn, that I go to the other extreme."
Could we elect a president today that has such an attitude?
Thanks, ANN, for that research. What a different time we live in. Our Congress cannot move on anything at the present time it seems to me and to vote on import taxes or stop supporting land bases around the world? No. Of course, there was a reason, I would imagine for those land bases, still is. We can use them in time of war or to land planes or bring ships in, etc. I think it is part of being a World Power. Of course, they didn't help prevent 9/11.
If you were president or in Congress, would you support giving up land bases around the world?
At the time of the Civil War we were far from a big, central government and we were not engaged in world affairs. How nice it would be to go back!!
But enought of chatting!!
THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS - AS LONG AS YOU KEEP POSTING, WE WILL BE AROUND.
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CHAPTER SIX is a short 7 pages, but it is all about Alexander Graham Bell and his inventions? Why do you think our author writes so much on this inventor when the book is about President Garfield?
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Ella and all. As I remember Chapter 6 as you said it was all about Bell and his invention, and in particular it dealt with quite deep detail on how Bell had to devote much of his time and money to pay lawyers and court expense to defend his patents in court actions brought by parties alleging they had claims to the invention that predated Bells.. Though as you say the Chapter was relatively short I did not see why this detail was much relative to the support of Bells assigned role in the story of the book. Obvious Candice Millard thought that it was necessary, and included it . What do all of you think? Was this detail relative here, or was its inclusion just an additional 3000 words for readers to digest.
To morrow morning I will again be out of circulation for performance of our Readers Theater Project. Hopefully I will be back for the afternoon. This could be a great discussion book and hopefully we can get the discussion back on track for conclusion.
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I really liked any facts that our author placed in the book. That these people who were inventing things to make one's life better that long ago is always amazing to me.
Hearing about Bell and Lister who were heavily involved in Garfield's dying days are interesting to me. I think it fleshes out the story and gives more history than one expects in a president's bio. I enjoyed it.
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Wonderful HAROLD AND ANN.
I love opposing ideas, it makes for an interesting discussion. Now, MARG and SHEILA, if you two have time, what do you think of Candice Millard writing so much about Bell and other inventors of the time. As ANN said, they have relevance to the book, but they could be, as HAROLD commented, just pages to fill out the book.
I thought they were interesting, I love any kind of history that is written well, and their relevance didn't come into play until Garfield was shot later in the book.
Garfield rode in an open carriage, no secret service. to the Capitol building to deliver his inaugual address. He spoke of education, the national debt but he was most passionate when he spoke of the Civil War, the liberation of slaves.
Which inaugual address have you remembered after all these years?
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I thought it was very interesting that Millard talked about other people of the time - the inventors, explorers, etc. I had no idea that that Bell was so young when he invented the telephone. I'd always pictured him the same age as Don Ameche (LOL).
Her writing about those other people it seems to me really brings that era to life and we can compare Garfield's life with those of others whom he was reading about and/or talking with.
I am going to read more about the explorer that she talked about, John Wesley Powell, who with only one arm navigated the rapids of the Columbia River and climbed cliffs, exploring the Grand Canyon. Amazing. I found several books about him at Amazon.com.
Marj
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Yes, I'm in favor of our getting rid of many of our military bases and using the money here at home to fix our highways, bridges, and many other good uses. Especially think we should get out of Afghanistan ASAP. Leave them to live in the Middle Ages. Altho I just read in a Wall Street Journal article that Afghanistan now has their own air force, financed by us, which they are using to transport heroin around their country.
Marj
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I'm behind in my reading: just finished Part I. Hope I can join late.
I like the fact that the author tells us about other things that were going on at the time: it's a time i know almost nothing about. And I find Bell to be a very interesting man. The scene at the exposition, where he demonstrates the telephone is unforgettable. Curious to know how he is relevant later.
I wish she had told us more about what Garfield had done in his political life before he was elected President. Was he only a gifted orator? He must have accomplished something to be in position to be nominated, even as a dark horse. Since he was not to be allowed further accomplishments, those he did make should be celebrated.
I was shocked to learn that, after emancipation, people of color needed passes to be abroad in Washington (my home town). Washington had a very interesting history during the Civil War as a primarily Southern town that was the Capital of the Union, located right next to the Confederacy. There is a very interesting book about that history: "Reveille in Washington" by Margeret Leech.
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March Book Club Online
Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/destinyrepublic/destivnybookcover.jpg)
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A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” - - The New York Times Book Review |
"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.
With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard
| DISCUSSION SCHEDULE: |
| March l | Part One (Plus Prologue) |
| March 9 | Part Two |
| March 17 | Part Three |
| March 24 | Part Four |
Some Topics to Consider
1. Discuss the reason for Chapter VI. 1. Discuss Candice Millard’s purpose in including details of Bell’s legal problems defending his Telephone Patents. Was all this detail necessary for the story?
2. Discuss Garfield’s Presidency as it emerged after his inauguration March 4, 1881. What single duty occupied most of Garfield’ Business Day? Did Conkling man, Vice President Chester A. Arthur pose a particular problem? What particular problems confronted Garfield in filling Cabinet posts with competent men? Who were the men who comprised Garfield’s White House Staff?
3. Discuss Guiteau‘s appearance on the Washington scene. What did Guiteau want from Garfield? What was Conkling’s surprise reaction to Garfield’s appointment of Conkling’s bitterest enemy to head the N.Y. Customs House?
4. Discuss Guiteau’s decision to give up his campaign for a Federal Job and to finalize his plan to kill the President. How did he acquire a gun? What precautions did he take to insure his own safety. Where did he plan to do the deed? In his mind what did he expect the event would have on him personally?
5. Discuss details of the assassination. Why did the first two attempts at the church fail? How did the alternate opportunity at the R.R. Station come about? What steps did Guiteau take too assure his safety after the event?
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Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)
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Harold Arnold - One of the facts that Candice Millard brought out in this book is the vast difference between the way a new President functioned after his inauguration in 1881 and how new president worked during most of the 20th century up to the president time. Garfield beginning the 2nd day of his Presidency faced a continuing line of citizens asking for some personal favor most often a Federal job of some sort. In Garfield's case one of these petitioners was none other than Charles Guiteau asking that he be appointed to fill a major diplomatic post in France. From the book we readers are left with the distinct impression that Guiteau had very little chance of getting that appointment. After a couple of months of trying Guiteau too seems to have realized he was not going to France. It was then that he began to formulate the details of his plan to kill the president.
The host of job seekers resulted from the "Spoil system” that characterized Federal governance at the time. Then there was no civil service. Every 4 years after each Federal election, every non-elective federal job was up for grabs. "To the victor, belonged the spoils'" and that day every Federal job from the highest to the lowest were eagerly sought by party faithful. There was always a large army claiming party loyalty worthy of appointment, and in a democratic Republic every citizen had the right to a personal audience to ask for one. This daily long line of People seeking Federal jobs characterized almost every work day of Garfield’s administration right up to the day he was shot.
After the reform minded Garfield became President March 4th 1881, the Grant wing of the Republican Party known as the” Stalwsart’s” whose leader in Congress was the N.Y. Senator Conkling were frantically trying to preserve this “Spoils system”. The principal story of this book is how after the death of President Garfield despite the strong Stalwart past of the New President, Chester A. Arthur, the first Federal Civil Service Law was passed and became law.
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I was much taken by the picture of Garfield spending his day with a long line of office-seekers, many complete strangers. We have to assume that Guiteau was not the only one who was completely unsuited for the job he wanted.
I was a Civil Servant for many years. With the size of government today, the thought of all jobs being filled that way: completely unworkable. Even in the smaller government of Garfields day, it must have been nearly so.
Even today, the political appointment system causes problems. The President appoints not only the Cabinet members, but several layers down from that. And even within a President's term, cabinet members may change, meaning the level below them changes. The problem comes because each new appointee wants to start anew, getting rid of whatever his/her predicessor did. This doesn't work well when it happens every 2 years, or even more often -- a program just gets started when someone new comes in and wants to start all over again. So nothing gets done.
It's at its worst when the party changes. The newcomers don't trust the civil Servants, assuming that they are of the opposing party (even though they hold their jobs for much longer and are about 50-50 Dems and Reps) and that the newcomers know better. Advice of "We tried that before, and it didn't work" aren't listened too, so the same mistakes are made over and over.
This is when the pols are well meaning and bright. When they are corrupt and/or stupid, things get even worse. These things are true no matter which party is in power.
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One tidbit I found amazing was that when Garfield came onto the platform for his inauguration, he was accompanied by two people, his mother, and the former slave, Frederick Douglass. I found that amazing for the time. The author doesn't make a lot of it - just mentions it.
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The plan for discussing this book is dividing it into 4 weekly segments, one for each of the four parts that the Author and publisher used to divide the book. Last week we did the Prolog and Part One, entitled Chosen. This week are are doing part Two entitled, War. Next week we will discuss Part Three, Fear, and the following last week we conclude with Part 4,Tortured For The Republic. Each of our weeks begin on Thursday and end on Wednesday.
Come on all of you Lets Discuss. The following are Some Part II Topics to talk about this week posted in the heading. My last previous post concerned several of the points identified in this list. YOU can use these to add your thoughts on these or other issues. Also Previously I had pretty well taken issue with the author's inclusion of what I judged an excess amount of information on Bells Legal problems that seemed to me was not necessary for understanding of Bell's role in the book. Apparently you all agree with me since I recall no one posting concerning this criticism of the Author.
Also I don't doubt for a moment that there are other Part II issues out there that YOU might want to bring up. If so,tell us about them.
1. Discuss the reason for Chapter VI. 1. Discuss Candice Millard’s purpose in including details of Bell’s legal problems defending his Telephone Patents. Was all this detail necessary for the story?
2. Discuss Garfield’s Presidency as it emerged after his inauguration March 4, 1881. What single duty occupied most of Garfield’ Business Day? Did Conkling man, Vice President Chester A. Arthur pose a particular problem? What particular problems confronted Garfield in filling Cabinet posts with competent men? Who were the men who comprised Garfield’s White House Staff?
3. Discuss Guiteau‘s appearance on the Washington scene. What did Guiteau want from Garfield? What was Conkling’s surprise reaction to Garfield’s appointment of Conkling’s bitterest enemy to head the N.Y. Customs House?
4. Discuss Guiteau’s decision to give up his campaign for a Federal Job and to finalize his plan to kill the President. How did he acquire a gun? What precautions did he take to insure his own safety. Where did he plan to do the deed? In his mind what did he expect the event would have on him personally?
5. Discuss details of the assassination. Why did the first two attempts at the church fail? How did the alternate opportunity at the R.R. Station come about? What steps did Guiteau take too assure his safety after the event?
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I've now finished Part 2, which is short. Guiteau is an amazing figure. It's surprising that until now, he has avoided both jail (most of the time) and being committed. There is an interre4sting contrast here between Guiteau and some of the characters in Dickens' stories, written in England at almost the same time. Dickens writes of men who were confined (as his father was) in debtors prison for years, unable to pay their debts, of course, since they were unable to work. Yet in Guiteau we have a man who NEVER paid his debts, and got away with it.
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Again, the complete lack of protection that Garfield had is amazing, so soon after Lincoln's assasination. Will another result be the formation of the Secret Service? We'll see.
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JoanK, the Secret Service had been held, but it was involved with counterfeiting, not protecting the president. I think I read that in the book.
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Thank you JoanK and MaryZ on your comments above.
I Know Joan that you have a closer experience to the Federal Civiil service than I. I do know, however, that the original Civil Service law approved by Garfield's Successor, Arthur, covered only lower worker positions. Most lower managements position remained political appointments. Even as late as 1924 in San Antonio, my Grandfather a long term career Railway Mail worker received a political presidential appointment to a local south Texas Chief Clerk position. He was terminated from that job in March 1932 when the Demo FDR became president but returned to his previous clerk status. Later even Post Masters were made Civil Service. I suspect today Postmasters and other Post Office workers have another but similar status under the current quasi Government/quasi Corporate organization under which the Post Office now operates.
Mary, that's interesting about Garfield having the former slave and his mother in prominent positions at his inauguration. I missed that in my reading. Today hasn't it become a custom for the President.s wife to hold the bible during the swearing-in portion of the program?
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Harold, I'm reading on my Kindle, so looked up the last name to find it again. It says it's on page 78 (I guess that would be in the book). In any case, it's in the description of his inauguration day.
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Mary, i was also surprised that Frederick Douglas was at the inaugural and that the author made so little of it. I would think thatwould create outrage in his opposition.
My other surprise was that there were 20,000(?) militia in the parade? Really? How boring. Am i spoiled w/ parades w/ lots of bands? Ahhh, but 27 yr old John Philip Sousa led the Marine band. I love his marches, so much so that i play them sometimes from youtube videos. Some of the best days of my growing up was 4th of July and Memorial Day. My small hometown had very good parades on both those days and i now do love a parade.
It was also mentioned that "A well-known and well-loved minstrel named Daddy Rice waited patiently in the crowd....." i believe that is probably the same Daddy Rice who is considered to be the first white performer to use blackface. He also wrote and performed the song
"Come listen all you galls and boys,
I'm going to sing a little song,
My name is Jim Crow.
Weel about and turn about and do jis so,
Eb'ry time I weel about I jump Jim Crow."
And Jim Crow became a very popular minstrel figure.
It went on to be the the coined phrase for Jim Crow laws that discriminated against Blacks.
I've had to return the book to the library, so i'll be relying on my memory for some of the discussion.
Jean
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Jean, that 20,000 soldiers sounded like an incredible number to me, too.
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MARJ, I teach a biography class on various famous and not so famous people for a senior citizen group about once a year. I taught one on John Wesley Powell about a year ago and found his life to be most interesting, but sadly not many people knew about him. There were several books I used for the class, but Donald Worster's "A River Running West" is the only one I can recall without further checking. There is also an excellent DVD called "Lost in the Grand Canyon" from PBS's American Experience series.
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Mary, and all, I am reading the book on the I-Pad. Besides being cheaper it is in many ways better as I have it well highlighted and marked with many discussion notes. Also it is easy to find special issues in the book by using the search feature. It is not the first discussion book that I read on digital devices. Last year I read on the nook that in my opinion is the equal to the I-Pad so far as reading books are concerned.
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HOW FUN TO COME IN AND READ ALL YOUR COMMENTS. THANK YOU SO MUCH, IT IS SO INTERESTING!
For Jean (but I won't watch you parading around the house!) - click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOCxegQupMU
Secret Service: I would have thought America would have woke up to the fact that presidents need protection after Lincoln was shot; but our book states: " Lincoln's assassination was widely believed to have been a tragic result of war, not a threat to the presidency."
The amazing thing to me is that Guiteau had been in the White House several times, even attending "a White House reception that was open to anyone who wished to attend."
Tis a wonder that more presidents of that era were not assassinated with such loose protection, or none at all, and to think that John Kennedy, with all the protection America could possibly give, was shot and killed in 1963.
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Mabel, I was not surprised that Fredick Douglas appeared at Garfields inauguration. Tthrough out the book he always seemed quite comfortable with exslaves and poor of all raced.
Welcome Dean, your work with seniors sounds interesting. I have lived at a Seniors Apartnent for 7 years and have occasionally lectured here on Spanish colonial and Texas Indian subjects. I have been a 22year docent at the Institute of Texas Cultures where I work at the Texas Indian section. I will be there this afternoon. I also am a docent at the S. A. Missions National Historical Park Mission Eespada.
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Roscoe Conkling, a powerful enemy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Conkling
New York Customs House: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Custom_House
Am I reading right here, that the original Custom House still stands and the last Customs House was destroyed in 9/11"
Am doing this hurridedly:
http://nyc-architecture.com/LM/LM012-ALEXANDERHAMILTONCUSTOMHOUSE.htm
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Before a federal income tax was imposed in 1916, a primary source of revenue for the federal government was custom duty. New York City, as the country's most active port, has had a Custom House since the country's founding in in 1781. In 1899, the United States Department of the Treasury acquired the Bowling Green property and sponsored a competition to build a new U.S. Custom House. Minnesotan Cass Gilbert, who later designed the Woolworth Building, won the competition by designing a building that was not just a functional building for commerce, but exuded a palatial grandeur. Construction began in 1900 and completed in 1907.
The interior of the building is dominated by the huge rotunda, which survives as one of the largest public spaces in New York. Commissioned In 1936 as part of the Treasury Relief Art Project, Reginald Marsh was commissioned to paint the elliptical space around the 140-ton skylight with sixteen frescoes. The larger sections portray eight successive stages of the arrival of an ocean liner in the harbor. Eight smaller panels, painted in grisaille to simulate statuary, depict famous explorers like Amerigo Vespucci, Christopher Columbus, Giovanni da Verrazano and Henry Hudson.
Above the main cornice on the sixth story are standing sculptures representing the great commercial sea-faring nations, from the Phoenicians to the Americans.
Central to Gilbert's design of the Custom House were four separate sculptures to be placed at the front entrance of the Custom House, representing four continents (from left to right) - Asia, America, Europe and Africa.
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I'd love to put a picture of this lovely building here. I'll see if I can do that! I love old architecture and its history.
(http://nyc-architecture.com/LM/facade_hp.jpg)
Alexander Hamilton Custom House (lower Manhattan)
JOANK: How far down does the layer go in government civil service! I had no idea of the corruption and the disruption when a party changes power.
DEAN: I love biographies. Can you tell us of one or two that have maintained your interest? We have discussed several here through the years. I can name a couple of my favorites - Katharine Grahams' book - John Adams by McCullough - one on a poet, I can't think of her name (was the title Savage Beauty? Millay?).
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Ella,
Lovely picture! I love the old architecture also.
I heard the most interesting interview yesterday, on public radio and wanted to bring the title of the book discussed here in case it might interest anyone. The author has brought out many things that I didn't know about the civil war and the history of what was going on in many states at that time.
Lincoln's handling of the first strike is incredible. Sounds like a tactic that we have used before and maybe are using now with Iran.
My library has 24 copies, all out to read, and I am 11th on the list. Ten other folks called and reserved it yesterday and I bet they were listening at the same time that I was.
Anyway, written by Adam Goodheart, its entitled "1861-with short subtitle which I can't remember". He covers only the year of 1861. Was the war really all about slavery? Were the states all in agreement on the war? Anyway back to our book. I am just rereading Chapter 7 or will be doing so after seeing all of Ella's links.
Oh, someone mentioned that we don't know much about Garfield's life before he was nominated but I remember that he was in the House and the Senate, and had been head of the Appropriations Committee and was known to be a non-stop orator on any topic. He was voted into the House of Reps in 1862 but didn't take his seat until 1863 when Lincoln asked him to. In 1879, he was voted into the Senate. So he had established himself in the government and was quite popular. There was talk of nominating him for president in 1880 but he wasn't interested and wrote in his diary, "I have so long and so often seen the evil effects of the presidential fever upon my associates and friends that I am determined it shall not seize me. In almost every case it impairs if it does not destroy the usefulness of it victim."
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Here's what I read about the New York Customs House in your link:"The custom house existed at several locations over the years. From 1842 it was at 26 Wall Street; that building is now Federal Hall National Memorial. From 1862 it was in the Merchant's Exchange building at 55 Wall Street. In 1907 it moved into a new building, now called the Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House, on Bowling Green. In the mid 1970s it was moved to 6 World Trade Center, which was destroyed in the September 11, 2001 attacks.
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I am new here and posting for the first time on this book. I got a bit behind in the reading, but once I started, I haven't been able to put the book down. I love reading historical non-fiction, but it us so much more engaging when I can discuss it with others. I am always driven to research and get more information than the book gives me, so I truly understand the time and topics referenced. I will post more directed reflection on the book this afternoon-busy morning, but am so excited to be here.
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Thanks, Dean, for your recommendation of the DVD and the book about John Wesley Powell. I've ordered the DVD from Netflix, and put the book on my TBR list.
Marj
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Thank you ADOANNIE for your of the N.Y. custom House history. I was surprised to hear that at the time of the 9/11 attack N.Y. customs was located in the World Trade Center that was destroyed. Those of you who want to read the short Wikipedia article click the following
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Custom_House
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Thank you eagle for your post with comment on the Book. I too found the book easy to read and understand. Your further comment will be welcome and appreciated.
Harold
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EAGLE: WELCOME, WELCOME! We are excited to have you. Do you have a favorite period of history that you like to read about?
I've found I know little about the period covered by this book. I think we concentrate so much on the Civil War, we really don'rt think enough about the following decades.
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I couldn't understand why Conklin, in charge of the Custom House, was so powerful, until Ella explained it: "Before a federal income tax was imposed in 1916, a primary source of revenue for the federal government was custom duty."
So Conklin held the purse-strings (or at lleast some of them). Now everyone kowtowing to him makes a lot more sense!
Someone asked how far down Presidential appointments go. It seems to vary by agency. They go down into positions where expertise in the subject the agency deals with is required. Some presidents look for people who have that expertise. Others, especially when a party has been "out" for a long time, and owes a lot of favors, use the positions as a wayy of paying those favors back. It also depends on how big the agency is how much this disrupts the work of the agencies.
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Welcome Eagle, i think you will enjoy our discussions. Check out the "non-fiction" site in the discussion index for continuing-forevermore discussion of non-fiction books.
OH! Ella! You couldn't have given a better choice of John P Sousa's marches. The Washington Post is my favorite, again because of memories.......when i worked for Dept of Army at Ft Dix, the week ended every Fri with a "colors ceremony" (lowering the flag) and that was the retreat march played every week. Two companies of brand new recruits (2weeks in basic training) and two companies of graduating recruits marched by the commander and the crowd to Wash Post March, " retreating the colors". I just loved it. I can't hear it w/ out seeing the marchers. It's kind of like the BRidge on the River Kwai song that i can't hear w/out seeing the British soldiers w/ -what was his name? Alec Guiness? - leading them w/his drum major baton.
The Customs bdg is a lovely bdg. Thanks for the link.i believe Theo Roosevelt spent some time as Commissioner of that facility, i'll check that out and let you know.
I know that the general schedule positions (non-appt) in the federal govt go at least as high as GS 15 which include supervisors of career specialty people at the pentagon. My guess is that's about three levels below the secretary (cabinet appt) of an agency.
Harold, i was not so surprised that Garfield would have invited Douglas to the inauguration, but to be the person w/him on the platform, that was a surprise and that the author made no mention of societies response to the action. I'm sure there must have been strong reaction. I believe that it was Theo Roosevelt (again :) ) who had Douglas to the White House which would have been two decades later and heard about it from the South. (i'll ck on that too).
Conkling sounds like he could have been a less sophisticated Karl Rove. It would be interesting to do a study to find out if there is always a puppetmaster behind or against each president.
Jean
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Lincoln had Douglass to the White House several times.
I wonder too about "puppetmasters". And will chester Arthur dance to his when he becomes President?
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Karl Rove, puppetmaster, JEAN kingmaker, he practically put Bush on the throne didn't he? I don't know if the public ever realizes what goes on in the cabinet meetings or among staff. Historians can dig for the information, of course. But at the time?
Garfield had so many problems, but he kept his cool, didn't he? Both Chester Arthur, his Vice President, the puppet of Conkling, were attempting to handle him and then there were the office seekers, every day entering the White House to speak to him.
I don't understand people who are ambitious for power. As Garfield realized in office - "Almost everyone who comes to me wants something and this embitters the pleasures of friendship." How to tell whether a friend wants something or just friendship???
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And one of those in line to see Garfield was a man by the name of Guiteau, who wanted to be minister to Austria.
Would you recognize a murderer in your midst? Would you have recognized Guiteau - after all he had worked for the Republican Party, even given a speech?
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I think i finally see a flaw in Garfield, he appears to not be decisive, or not assertive in his decisions. Maybe i'm looking at this in hindsight, but, if he had vitally important things to do, why wouldn't he take control of the hours when people could "see" him? Change it to two days a week, or shorter hours? I guess i saw this behavior in his not removing himself from the presidential nomination, but i saw that as being patriotic, or maybe an internal conflict of, rationally, not wanting to be president, but emotionally liking the honor and prestiege, but setting hours for "visitors"!?!
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I just thought to look at the BookTV web site. There is a conversation with Candice Millard from November 2011. It's a little less than an hour.
Click here. (http://www.booktv.org/Watch/12831/quotDestiny+of+the+Republic+A+Tale+of+Madness+Medicine+and+the+Murder+of+a+Presidentquot.aspx)
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Mabel, Joan and All: Just a quick comment concerning post Civil War American Presidents and the Public reaction to their social relations with Black Citizens. Franklyn and Eleanor Roosevelt were certainly subject to criticism during the 30’s for their inviting well regarded Black singers to the White House, and for certain the Roosevelt administration was not the last to be subject to this sort of public bias.
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I started to watch the conversation with Millard, but saw it was going to focus on the part of the story that we haven't read yet, so decided to postpone it. I was surprised at how young Millard is.
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Mabel I think you are right. Garfield seems to be unassertive. He is much too generous with his time especially when it comes to seeing people leaving little time for the actual duties of government.
Ella in the past 3 or 4 years, I have become addicted to reading biographies. Some that I have especially enjoyed are: Six Wars at a Time by Howard and Audrey Karl Shaff about the life of Gutzon Borglum, sculptor of Mt. Rushmore; Dr. Seuss and Mr. Geisel by Judith & Neil Morgan; Appetite for America by Stephen Fried about Fred Harvey.
Currently, I am reading a biography on Belva Lockwood by Jill Norgren. Ms. Lockwood was a 19th century activist and feminist who had to overcome numerous obstacles for everything she ever achieved. She finally was able to obtain a good education, become a lawyer, become the first woman to practice at the U. S. Supreme Court bar and make 2 unsuccessful runs for president of the United States. By the way Roscoe Conkling was a thorn in her side too.
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Welcome Dean! Its so nice to see a new face in our discussions.
I noticed your mention of Fred Harvey. I read a book about the Harvey girls that our Ella gave me about 5 years ago. Entitled: "The Harvey Girls-Women Who Won the West" by Lesley Poling-Kempes, it's absolutely a delightful story about Harvey Houses and Fred Harvey who Ray B. Browne, Journal of American Culture, credits with having been "a major player in the opening Southwest." You might enjoy reading that one too.
Back to our book,(I know that I am behind the rest of you due to family happenings) I started the 7th chapter and was surprised at the history our author included in this story. For instance, I didn't know that we had always held the inauguration in March since George Washington's inaugural. And continued to do so until FDR's swearing in? I must google that see why it was finally changed. ;) So according to WIKI, FDR's swearing in was on March 4th, 1933. Then is was changed to Jan 20 in the 20th Amendment to the Constitution. They finally realized that making Congress wait for their new president to be sworn in on March th, was not acceptable.
Or that the Capitol had taken 75 years to build. That the Smithsonian's Arts & Industries was once our National Museum and although it wasn't finished when Garfield was sworn in, it did have a roof and temporary pine floors where they would hold the traditional inaugural ball. My gosh, how did they heat it? Remember, the weather was cold, snow on the ground, high winds and lots of mud.
Then Gerrard tells us about the Washington Monument which was proposed in 1783, wasn't started until 65 years later and in 1880, it was still not finished due to lack of funds. There were cowsheds built around it and pigs and sheep milling around its marble base. She paints a pretty sad picture of the National Mall and its unfinished buildings at that time. But I was happy to see that John Phillip Sousa led the Marine Corps Band. I still love his marches.
So, now I will catch up by reading the posts that I missed over the weekend.
Harold,
Didn't Eleanor Roosevelt introduce a black opera singer at a public concert at Lincoln Memorial? Was that Marian Anderson, the opera singer? Yes, google says so!
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Yes, it was Marian Anderson I was thinking of yesterday. I remembered the incident but had forgotten the name.
Harold
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DEAN - JEAN - I believe it was the custom for the White House to be open to all visitors, to the public, during that decade. I just saw sentence in the book - "presidents were expected not only to be personally available to the public, but to live much much like them. When President Hayes have traveled to Philadelphia five years earlier for the opening cermony of the Centennial Exhibition, her had bought a ticket and boarded the train like everyone else." (pg.90)
I just saw this sentence on pg 88 - "As the leader of a democratic nation, the president of the United States was expected to see everyone who wanted to see him."
I'll look that up in some reference, but I think Lincoln and Grant had the same situation.
I'm not sure that I agree with you two about Garfield being unassertive. I think he could fight when he had to - he "had fought everyone from hardened canal men to unruly students to Confederate soldiers" and he would pick his battles in Congress and the presidency.
He appoint an enemy of the powerful Conklling to the most prized position of all - the collector of the New York Customs House. "Let who will, fight me" - Garfield wrote in his diary. This battle is about the power of the presidency.
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We must have further comment on the organization of the White House staff. In marked contrast to the present complex organization comprising a scores of distinct departments and sections, Garfield’s 1881 office staff consisted of his private secretary, Joseph Stanley Brown a young man in his 20’s. He was assisted by a few assistants including a I think a typist. This might have been the first introduction of this new device in the White House.
Brown remained in the White House as Private Secretary during the remainder or the term after Chester Arthur assumed the Presidency. I was surprised but apparently there is no Wikepedia article on Brown who apparently later married Garfield’s daughter Molly. Click the following for addition material on his life. http://www.worldcat.org/title/joseph-stanley-brown-papers-1730-1941/oclc/079455034
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Thank you, DEAN, for the biographies. I'll certainly look them up.
"I THOUGHT JUST WHAT PEOPLE WOULD TALK AND THOUGHT WHAT A TREMENDOUS EXCITEMENT IT WOULD CREATE....TWO POINTS WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED. IT WILL SAVE THE REPUBLIC AND CREATE A DEMAND FOR MY BOOK." - Guiteau
(Many of these quotes are from the case United vs. Guiteau, which we will discuss in the last chapter of the book.
What a crazy fellow he was. Didn't anyone recognize this? I think I read that finally he was expelled from entering the White House because he became a nuisance. Well, we must read on........................
Don't you love those pictures? Garfield looks rather stern in that portrait of him, however. Lucretia, a lovely lady!!!
And the old train station with horses and buggys.
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March Book Club Online
Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/destinyrepublic/destivnybookcover.jpg)
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A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” - - The New York Times Book Review |
"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.
With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)
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Ella Gibbons -
Thank you, HAROLD, on those notes about the staff. We are posting at the same time today.
And Garfield, and previous presidents, had run the country on such a small staff.
Could be the first typewriter????? Interesting, we are still, in a way, using the same keyboard aren't we?
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Another interesting comment appearing in Chapter 8 was a discussion of the late 19th century of the attitude of the American Press and Public regarding Presidential Security that was summarized in a New York Times editorial as, "There is no protection with which we can surround them that will ward off danger or disarm it more effectively than our present refusal to recognize its existence. HOW'S THAT FOR BURYING ONES HEAD IN THE SAND?
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"As the leader of a democratic nation, the president of the United States was expected to see everyone who wanted to see him."
I saw that, too, and was touched by it. In the early days after the revolution, everyone was scared that America would turn into another dictatorship, and did everything they could think of to make sure that the President was seen as a representative of the people, not their master. I'd bet the above dates from that feeling. This was workable in a spreadout country, where travel was difficult, and few could even get to the President. But I'm surprised that it lasted so long.
How difficult is it to get to see ones representative or Congressman/woman? When you write, you get back a form letter.
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I remember in the summer of 1940 on an automobile trip to Washington DC walking unannounced into Paul Kilday's office in the House of Representatives office building with my Father and younger Brother. Within 15 minutes we were ushered into his office where we had a leisurely 20 minutes chat with the Congressman. We left with visitor entrance tickets for both the House of Representatives and the Senate. In particular I remember the Senate visit where at the time they were debating the proposed Military draft act that was passed and remained in force for the the next 35 plus years. Our system of Federal governance was a much simpler thing than today even then.
Killday at the time was the Representative representing the 20th Texas district that then constituted our entire Bexar County. Today parts of San Antonio are represented by some 5 different representatives. Since I moved back to San Antonio in 2005 I have been back in the 20th district that now has shrunk to just a small area around the center of the City. Other parts pf the city are now represented by 4 other congressional districts some of which stretch over a hundred miles from the city.
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PatH reminded me that when we were children growing up in Washington, also around 1940 our mother would frequently take us downtown. When we would pass the White House, she would say "Let's go in and shake hands with the President." We never did it, but mom evidently believed that we could have.
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As the Senior Senator from N.Y., Rosco Conkling claimed the absolute right to name all Federal appointees to N.Y. Positions. He even sent Garfield his list off appointees to the Federal Cabinet. Garfield actually named several from his list but appointed a long time Conkling enemy James Blaine as Secretary of State. What really ticked Conkling off was Garfield's appointment of Judge William Robertson to head the N.Y. Custom house. Thinking that the N.Y senate would quickly reappoint him, he resigned in protest. But surprise, the Reappointment was not forthcoming. As a result though Conkling remained a greatly reduced voice in N.Y. and Federal politics for the remainder of his life he never regained his pre-Garfield control
Click the Following for the Wikipedia biographical sketch of Roscl Conkling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe_Conkling
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Some of the points that some of you might want to talk about tomorrow to close our discussion of Part 2 of the book are How Guiteau acquired the pistol, his practice with it his stalking of the President at his Church on two successive Sundays and how he finally shot him at a D.C. RR station where Garfield had went to catch a train to take him to a reunion of his college class.
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As Harold suggested, we'll talk about the details of the assassination tomorrow. I am sorry I was out today at the doctor's office for tests. Back tomorrow sometime after blood work and errands.
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HAROLD AND I HAVE DECIDED TO ABBREVIATE OUR DISCUSSION - SHORTEN IT IN OTHER WORDS!
Let's discuss the whole book, okay? We will put a few discussion points in the heading for your consideration
I think most of you have finished the book, and if you haven't it is easy to read.
MEANWHILE ........
WOULD YOU HAVE THOUGHT A PRESIDENT WAS SHOT IN A TRAIN STATION?????
"When Garfield walked in, Guiteau was standing right behind him........." The first bullet sliced through his arm and Garfield cried out - "My God! What is this?" Guiteau fired again...........There was a moment of stunned silence, and then the station erupted in screams."
It would have been on TV today!!! We would have watched it maybe???
Would it be on Youtube???
What are your thoughts?
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Obviously, the times don't compare. The President then didn't have a gaggle of photographers and journalists following him around, so he couldn't do anything without having it reported all over the world.
I have finished the book - fascinating. And then I watched the talk and Q&A with Millard - also great. I have a couple more comments, but I'll wait until an appropriate time for those.
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Thanks, MARYZ, for your comments!
Until others come in, I was just surfing the web (isn't that a cool phrase, we would not have known what that meant 20 years ago) and I came across our old railroad station in Columbus, Ohio. I'm going to try to put a picture of it in here.
REMINSCING HERE! I bet if you google your own railroad station, you might find it????
There was such a protest from the public when the powers that be decided to tear our lovely station down, they did it during the night - that's an honest fact!!! Built a horribly ugly convention center on the site.
(http://www.lcfpd.org/html_lc/changingtheskyline/ohio/a91593.jpg)
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My husband left for WWII from this station - but the cars would have been Pontiac or Ford (American made) - 1942
And in 1946 came home from the Pacific Coast to this station. I met him 2 years! later.
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Chattanooga's train station has a whole new life as the Chattanooga Choo Choo Hotel (http://www.choochoo.com/ChattanoogaTN/trainstation/?dest=62). There are restaurants, rooms in train cars, shops, gardens, performance space. It's still well used. And, of course, we've taken Glenn Miller's recording to heart.
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Of course you have! And what foresight your city had!!! Cincinnati, Ohio did the same thing and it is lovely.
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Let me know when you're ready to talk about G's trip to Long Branch NJ, i have a follow-up story.
I love the beauty of those old rr stations.
It's so hard for us to even imagine the lives of presidents in the 19th century. Most people wouldn't even know what the resident looked like. Those who did had only seen his picture in a newspaper. There may even have been people in rural areas who didn't know the president's name. Therefore, many wouldn't know he'd been shot.
Jean
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Someone had the sense to keep the old Union Station in Washington, and turn it into a tourist attraction.
http://www.unionstationdc.com/info/albumphotos
It wasn't opened until 1907, so it was not the station where garfield was shot. But it was built with all the pomp and marble that the government could produce.
I don't know whether I should share this little-known fact that you WON'T find in the official history. One feature of the design was to be statues of roman soldiers to be placed high - up under the roof. The sculptor intended to carve them in the nude.
Whoever was in charge of the project was horrified! He insisted he wouldn't use them unless the sculptor carved clothes for them. The sculptor, in turn, was furious. He responded by carving the uniform of Roman soldiers (short skirts) but under the skirts, carving them in full naked glory. Since they are up, high, if you get under them and look up, you will see more than you bargained for!
(I always thought that was an urban myth, but a friend and I tried it the last time I was there, and it's true. We were laughing so hard, a guard stopped us, wanting to know what the matter was. We just pointed. When we left, the guard had called other guards, they were all standing around looking up with red faces).
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Guiteau' first plan was to shoot Garfield at the church that he attended most Sundays. In fact he stalked the President on two successive Sundays. For some reason he could not get close enough either time. That's when he read in the newspaper of Garfield's planed rail trip to attend a class reunion at his college. The oportunity appear and Guituea shot the president twice. The second shot was the serious one. A doctor who happened to be there administered to Garfield by probing his RR station soiled fingers into the wound. I guess he was probing for the bullet, But those dirty fingers at that early point probably sealed Garfields fate by early on planting the infection.
I think the author in describing the details off Garfield's 3 month lingering in the hot summer White House bed room made a strong case condeming the medical staff as incompendent. They rigged up an air conditioning system that was nothing more than a fan blowing ambient air over a cake of Ice. I suppose it was better than nothing. The bullet had traveled a considerable distance through Garfield's body. It probably would not have affected the outcome, but Bells efforts to locatethe precise position was interesting. It invoved an induction dvice and it failed because of the close proximity of the metal bed springs. Considering the state of medical skill at the time, I suspect Garfiels fate was sealed from the beginning.
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Bell's device didn't locate the bullet because Dr. Bliss would only let him use it on Garfield's right side (where Bliss said it was). Turns out the bullet was on the left side, and that's why the device didn't find it. And, you're right, the damage was already done with the initial infection.
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JEAN - go ahead with your story as we are just going to talk about the whole book.
YES, JOANK, I've been to that station in Washington. Wonderful! I went with our group some years ago. Wish we had known about the Roman soldiers (scandalous, huh) - we would have all gawked and giggled! Does JOANP know? Shall we tell her?
HAROLD, the chapter of the care of the president - Chapter 14 - was absolutely fascinating. I couldn't stop reading from there on. Can you believe some of it?
"Even had Garfield simply been left alone he almost certainly would have survived."
Or:
"If Garfield had been a 'tough' and had received his wound in a Bowery dive, he would have been brought to Bellevue Hospital...without any fuss or feathers, and would have gotten well."
Hard to believe, some of it:
They (the doctors) believed that the thicker the layers of dried blood and pus, black and crumbling on their laboratory coats, the greater the tribute to their years of experience.
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For would-be gawkers, there are two rows of Roman soldiers, one with and one without.
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As i said, i had to return the book to the library, so i'm not sure how much of this story is in the book......
After being at the White House for a time, the decision was made to take the Pres to the fresh air of the Jersey shore. He would go by train, but the last part of the trip would be by wagon over a rutted dirt road. There was concern about how harmful that would be to JG. So in 24 hrs the local residents diligently built a mile of track from the station to the house where he was going to stay........ I assume that much of the story was in the book.
However, a favorite NJ tale continues the story........Twelve days after JG died, the rr spur was torn up, but an enterprising, historically conscious man bought the track and tiles and built what is now known as the Garfield Teahouse w/ the tiles and the center beam is a piece of the track, and it stands on the property of the Chapel of Presidents in Long Branch, NJ. Here is the wiki site about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garfield_Tea_House
Jean
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Fascinating. Can you have tea in the teahouse?
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Yes, JEAN, fascinating. But the tea house looks so small or is it? Thank you for that story!!!
Click on the gallery pictures here - beautiful - they look pen and ink drawings of the Church of the Presidents. It's at the bottom of the page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Presidents_(New_Jersey)
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Jean, that is an interesting story from wikipedia about the wounded Garfield being taken from the White House to the Jersey Shore, but I do not remember it being in the book. There is mentioned a trip by Garfield to the Jersey shore, It was just a week or so before he was shot. As I remember the account in the book Garfield still his healthy self just a few weeks before his being shot took his wife there on a quick trip. He though the fresh sea air would aid her recovery from her spring illness that for a time had threatened her life. Guiteau read of the proposed trip in the newspaper. As he did again a week or so later Guiteau stalked Garfield at the RR station. In fact he could have shot Garfield there, but he was so affected by the sight of Mrs Garfield that he could not bear to kill her husband in front of her, and he let the opportunity pass. Later after a stern evaluation of his decision he vowed he would never let such an opportunity pass again.
There was another opportunity that failed besides the one at Garfield's church. Garfield and Secretary of State Blane were walking the few blocks from Blaine's house to the White House. This was before the RR Station incident to the Jersey shore. According to our book Guiteau again had a golden opportunity as he trailed Garfield and Blaine walking the few blocks to the White House. Yet he did not shoot this time. Was this another example of Guiteau's lack of mental resolve?
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Even as crazy as he was, when he came to it he seemed to realize the enormity of what he was doing.
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As I remember, Garfield was at the train station on his way to be with Lucretia in NJ when he was shot. Then, shortly before he died, they were going to take him to NJ to see if that would make him feel better. That was when they were going to lay that extra track. But that trip never happened.
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DO YOU THINK THAT ALEXANDER GRAHAM BELL'S PART IN GARFIELD'S STORY WAS OVER EMPHASIZED? It was a bit much, don't you think, or did you enjoy it?
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Thanks to Jean, we have more history to take in about the building of the Tea House from the rr ties left in the spur built for JG on the grounds of the Church of the Presidents. Most interesting little bit of history about Long Branch, NJ. Seems like all of us want a piece of our country's hisory residing our home town.
My home town of Indianapolis has a restored RR station also with an attached hotel now. Its great fun to visit. Many soldiers and sailors departed from there during WWII and now they have sculptures of those passengers awaiting their train all over the station. The restoration story was in National Geographic back in the 1980's. And Indy has the Benjamin Harrison home the for touring also.
JoanK, I loved your story about D.C.'s rr station. Ginny and Ella and my sister, Mary plus me, all visited that station to have supper after seeing the Egyptian exhibit at the Art Museum. Very busy place. I remember when it as the rr station that we came into from Philly to visit the Smithsonian. So, changes have been made since then.
In the link we find pictures of the being restored chapel and the plans for restoring the Tea House. The chapel is now the Long Branch Historical Museum. Pictures of both are available in the link.
And no wonder, Garfield want to go there. It sits right across from the Atlantic ocean. I can hear the ocean waves gently crashing against that shore. How restful it must have been.
And about Bell's inclusion in this story, again, it fleshes out the whole story of JG's death. We learn how far we have come from that time. Wasn't the Industrial Age just getting started then? Bell did have a an important part in the attempt to save the president.
Another thing for me is the whole country came together to pray and watch and hope for their president to be saved. In spite of the Civil War's results left on the people, they were all in agreement about this one man.
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Mary - that's an astounding statement, that this author says the trip to LB wasn't as NJ states it. The Long Branch Historical Society - who i assume has researched the tea house appropriately - says it happened......
http://www.churchofthepresidents.org/About%20the%20LBHMA.htm
Scroll down a bit to see the teahouse story on their site....
Jean
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Jean, I probably mis-remember. Sorry.
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I liked the story of Bell, even though it did seem a stretch to include him. But his was an interesting story in itself: I wish we'd had more of it.
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Regarding Union Station's San Antonilo, my town never had one. In 1900 San Antonio had 4 separate Rail Road Companys serving the city from 4 different stations. In my time the number had been reduced to 3 after the smallest RR that served the rural country south of S.A. was absorbed by one of the larger ones. To day three of the RR are still around but for freight service only, one of the Depots , the old SP remains and I guess it still functions as a Depot for the AMTREK Passenger service. They also hold public events such as rock concerts there.
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Yes, you are all probably right that including Alexander Graham Bell fleshed out the times, the era, and made a good book better.
And, as ANN stated, the fact of their president being killed somehow brought together a country that had been so recently divided and brought a feeling of patriotism for one country, one man, one of their own.
Just a curiousity on my part - WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD TO STOP AT A RR CROSSING? Gosh, it seems in yesteryears we were always stopping, counting the cars, waiting, waiting.
But to move on.....
The many rumors and theories about dark plots and conspiracies in the assassination of Garfield brought to my mind JFK's assassination (pg.168-169) At my F2F book club the other day the subject came up and lo and behold several of us had different "theories." It goes on.
How different the two tragedies were, however, in many ways. We watched history unfold on TV as LBJ stook the oath of office on an airplane (without looking that up I think that's where it took place, I know Jackie was beside him). Now VP Arthur is stunned, in despair and hiding.
What is your memory of that horrible day?
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A lesson that we shouldn't miss about the safety of presidents at the time is that the fact that not having continuous protection tells us that they felt presidents were in general safe from the public. They saw Lincoln's assassination as a unique situation, a one-crazy-man episode in a highly unusual crises in the country. Even JG's assassination can be looked at again as a one-crazy-man event.
It probably is hard for us today to think that way. We tend to see danger everywhere, and for presidents in this highly partisan world, that probably is correct. Although we look back aghast at the fact that the presidents had no secret service, it was not as necessary as we think of the need today. Even Lincoln, despite the threats after his election and his having to be disguised and hidden thru Baltimore and Maryland in order to get him to D.C., resisted Pinkerton's offer to be by his side to give him some protection. Pinkerton took on the task, regardless of L's resistance, but it was mostly only one man as a guard.
Have you seen the tv show about the renovation of Grand Central station? I don't remember now whether it was on PBS, or on CSPAN?
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Mary, i wasn't questioning your remembering the statement, i was questioning the author's facts. ;)
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The following as some points to discuss this coming week as we discuss parts 2 And 3 this coming week:
1. Discuss Garfield's medical treatment? Why was he kept in a White House bed room and not in a hospital? Who were the mangers of his treatments? Were the Doctors component? What was the role of the wife and family? What were his plans for the Future. How was Guiteau charged and how was the trial managed?
2. Discuss Guiteau's state of mind immediately after the shooting? In Jail, how did he discuss the event with Reporters and what were his planns for his future? How was his trial managed? Was the Guilty verdict and particularly the death verdict really justified by the evidence of his insanity?
3. Discuss Vice President Arthur's position as Garfield lingere. Who ran the Government during this period? What unexpected factor's were drawing Arthur away from his previous allegiance to Conkling and the Stalwart cause? And at the end of the term on March 4, 1885 would Garfield's spirit been proud of the achievements of the 4 year administration?
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I'm looking forward to the answers to Harold's questions, sounds very interesting.
I don't have the book's reason for JG not being in the hospital, but from general knowledge, my recollection is that people went to the hospital to die in those days. People who wanted to survive stayed at home. Hospitals were rife w/ infections and not up to today's standards of cleanliness. I'm sure they must have thought he was safer at the White HOuse, surrounded by friends and family and the "best" docs.
Jean
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The big difference between the Garfield and the JFK assassinations was that Garfield lingered for 3 months with greatly reduced capacity to govern while KFK was pronounced legally dead withing minutes of his arrival at the hospitable. This made LBJ's course of action clear under the express words of the Constitution. He called a Federal Judge that resided in Dallas and she came to the airport and swore him in as President on Airforce one before it took off from Dallas. I seem to remember that later In D.C. a Supreme Court Justice administered the oath again. In my opinion LBJ was legally President the moment JFK's heart stopped beating.
Garfield's case was different since his capacity to perform his duties was greatly reduced, he was still alive and even able to act in a vaguely limited way. At that time I am sure the Cabinet heads continue governing in their own way and under the circumstances existing at the time, there was probably not much adverse consequence. In the Cold War circumstance of the 1960's an incapacitated President might have been a serious problem.
Another period with an incapacitated President came in 1920 when Woodrow Wilson returned from Paris a very sick man. It is said that the President's wife acted for the President then. The situation was potentially more dangerous at that time. After the Kennedy assassination, I understand a procedure has been devised that would allow a Vice President to legally assume responsibilities for presidential duties temporarily if a President is incapacity. I am not familiar with the details of this arrangement, but I don't think we need delve that deep in this discussion.
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I admit I was surprised that there was not an alternative put into place while Garfield lingered. The pace of government must have been much slower.
Hospitals then must have been unspeeakable. Even thing like covering up chamber pots were not done. I'm sure as many people died from infection as wounds in the Civil War
In the book, there doesn't seem to be much doubt that Bliss's "care" killed Garfield. But he was following accepted practices of the day. How much is he to blame?
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Mabeel by all means post yoour comment on G's trip to Long BranchNJ
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March Book Club Online
Destiny of the Republic
Candice Millard
(http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/destinyrepublic/destivnybookcover.jpg)
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A New York Times Notable Book of 2011 - "One of the many pleasures of Candice Millard’s new book, Destiny of the Republic, is that she brings poor Garfield to life—and a remarkable life it was…..Fascinating… Outstanding….Millard has written us a penetrating human tragedy.” - - The New York Times Book Review |
"A passionate abolitionist, Garfield was not only hailed a hero in the Civil War, but was a fierce champion of the rights of freed slaves. At the same time, he was a supremely gifted scholar who had become a university president at just 26 years of age, and, while in Congress, wrote an original proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.
With each diary entry and letter I read, each research trip I took, Garfield came more clearly and vividly to life. It was not until I visited the National Museum of Health and Medicine in Washington, D.C., however, that I began to understand the extent of the suffering that Garfield, and the nation with him" - Candice Millard
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & Harold (hhullar5@yahoo.com)
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Joan and all regarding the functioning of the Government during G.s confinment: I too wonderd about this particularly what Congress was doing? The following Wikipedia link shows that the 47th Congress was in session but no major legislation became law during the period. I suspect that Garfield approved routine legislative acts since he was most often conscious with a gopod measure of his mental capacity intact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/47th_United_States_Congress#Major_events
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It was very interesting to me the pains they took to get him there. I'm sure he loved being able to see the sea at the end.
As a child, my family used to summer on Long Beach Island, NJ. Is Long branch near there?
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Good questions, HAROLD!
I must go back to the book - I just realized that this is our last week, am I correct? Is March coming to an end. What a March!!! How warm it's been in Ohio, in the 70's. Strange weather all around the country.
I remember that Garfield had a very good secretary or assistant, a young fellow I think. I'll look him up. He, no doubt, could take care of the mundane tasks of government and as HAROLD said Garfield could have made some decisions up until the end.
I understand that it is not at all right to compare today with yesteryear, particularly with the late 19th century, but in thinking of Dr. Bliss, the doctor who took over the care of the president, I am reminded that today with our specialists there would have been quite a different scene. Think of it! And in no way would a president be taken to the White House.
And I doubt if any would be taken to Walter Reed Army Hospital today either! Of course, they probably have cleaned that up considerably, wouldn't you have imagined??
We've hardlly mentioned Lucretia, Garfield's wife. From what I have read in the book I would have liked her, wouldn't you?
Back later............
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"And I doubt if any would be taken to Walter Reed Army Hospital today either!"
Heads of state were taken there when I worked there 20 years ago. It was the outbuildings, not the hospital, that were infected. The building where I worked had cockroaches as big as mice.
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Ella see your Reply #168 above about shortening the discussion by one week per our e-mail discussion last week. That would be Friday, March 23. Now I suggest that we hold it open through the following Monday (1 week from today, March26th). We here at Chandler have a day trip this Friday, March 23 to visit the hill country North of Fredricksbutg TX to see the blue bonnet that are back this year in large numbers after last year's drought. Lets close it then any time after 6:00 PM march 26th.
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Regarding Civil War Military Medicine it was pretty much the luck of the draw. One of my great Grandfather's brothers died of dysentery in an army field hospital. It wasn't a rebel bullet that dropped him, it was U.S. Army chow. Despite the poor recovery odds, our book pointed out that in 1881 there were hundreds of civil war veterans living with a bullet tucked away somewhere in the body cavity.
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We need to discuss Guiteau's mental outlook on the day of the shooting. I think he really believed that he would be received as a hero after the President's death.. Apparently on the morning of the shooting he even sent a letter to General Sherman telling his plans including the prison where he wanted to be held for a while to protect him from possible lynch mob. violence . He also made arrangements with a carriage driver to take him to the prison of his choice immediately after the shooting. His long term plans included marriage, and a respected leadership career in post Garfield America. His plans even included a future run for U.S. Presidency. I do not doubt that as the prison door slammed shut behind him that afternoon he had no doubt that in a few days he would emerge a free man, the hero of the nation.
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Yes, he was definitely insane, HAROLD!
We will be closing this discussion very soon and we want to thank all who participated!!!
If you stop by, tell us if you enjoyed the book!!
Would you recommend it to a friend?
THANK YOU AGAIN, AND WE HOPE TO SEE YOU IN ANOTHER NONFICTION BOOK IN THE FUTURE!!
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Yes, Harold, I believe Guiteau thought he would be called a hero with monuments erected to honor him. One always thinks of what might have been. Garfield might have become one of the great presidents such as Lincoln or Roosevelt, but we will never know because of Guiteau's deed and the doctors' incompetence.
I have enjoyed this discussion. Although I have not been as active as some others, I have learned much from their comments. I would enjoy reading and discussing more nonfiction books. Many thanks to the leaders.
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We didn't get to any discussion about Guiteau's trial. As with Douglas being at Garfield's inauguration, I was surprised that there was a black man on the jury. Blacks were systematically excluded from juries for quite a long time, but I guess that started a little later.
Anyhow, it was a good discussion, and thanks for picking the book. I enjoyed it, and probably wouldn't have picked it up without the prospect of the conversation here.
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"Blacks were systematically excluded from juries for quite a long time, but I guess that started a little later,"
There was a period after the Civil War when blacks had more rights than later. Also, the trial would have been in the District of Columbia (the DC of Washington, DC), which, being outside of all the States, has it's own laws. They may have been more liberal than the laws elsewhere. (Although I noticed that one of Garfieeld's accomplishments was to change the DC law that said that all negro men found outside had to carry passes. So maybe DC wasn't THAT liberal.
Saying the District of Columbia reminds me: when I moved to California, I had to show my birth certificate. When she saw that I had been born in the District of Columbia she aske "Where is that? Alabama?
I've enjoyed this discussion a lot and appreciated the opportunity to learn history that I knew nothing about. Keep up the good work, Ella and harold.
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Regarding Insanity Plea's, I think that in the U.S. and particularly in my state, Texas they are verry hard to sustaine. In particular I remember a 1950's local case in which the defence used 5 or silx renown psycholgists each of whom testified the defendant was insane under the statute defination. The main witness for the prosecution was the Sheriff of Bexas County who testfied, "He seems sane to Me."
The jury returned its verdict , Guility, 1st degree murder, sentence Death in the Electric Chair.
In Europe too there were a number of high profile killings of Royals including a King of Spain and a Czar of Russia. I don't know how the killer's faired but I suspect if they were caught, it wassn't pleasant. In England there were a total of 5 attempts on the life of Queen Victoria during the course of her long reign. I don't think any of these resulted in a death sentence but of course they never killed her. As I remember it, 1 or 2 of these an insanity plea was sustained resulting in confinment in an assalum instead of a prision. Probably not much different.
If any of you want to go deeper in this subject go to Wikipedia and search on Queen Victoria or Insanity Plea's in Murder cases.
for the Procequ
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I think now that our present plan is to close this discussion this coming Monday afternoon (about 4:00 PM EST). There is at least one more major point concerning the results of the Garfield/ Arthur Administratsion that requires our discussion. This of course concerns the changing position of President Arthur that transformed him from Conkling's go too guy for enforcement of Stalwart policy, to a reformer President that even Garfield could be proud of. How did this change come about and what major piece of reform legislation emerged before the term ended.
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I was wondering about that, too. If you remember, Truman was considered a party machine hack when he was chosen Veep, but his administration didn't show it.
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I remember taking an economics history course at Trinityand one of the Chapters in the text was about the first federal Civil Service legislation that was Signed By President Arthur. I vaguely remember the fact that his approval of it came as a surprise in view of his strong previous support of the "Spoil System" past. I don't remember it discussing Garfield's Murder or the reason for his change that were certainly made clear in our book. Isn't it interesting how some lady citizen took on herself to correspond with Aurthur urging him too conduct his presidency as Garfield might have done? Conkling of course was furious but
Arthur approve the Bill serving some 3 1/2 years of the 4 year term after which he retired from Politics to die in just a couple of years.
Living here at this seniors only Apartment on the near north side of San Antonio is interesting. This morning I participated in a 2 mile seniors walk at Brackenridge park. Me and my friend Marie Grace completed the 2 miles in 38 minutes. Tomorow we will have a day trip through the hill country to see and photograph the bluebonnets. So I'll be out to touch here all day but will check in during the evening.
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Harold: it sounds like you have found a lovely spot. 38 minutes for 2 miles is faster than I was able to do when I was much younger, and 2 minutes faster than army marching speed. Congrats.
Interesting for Arthur: he had his moment in the sun,
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Thank you Ella and Howard for all your work in leading the discussion. I wasn't very involved due to only having the book for a short time and this last week we've had a stomach flu running thru the family, so i was playing nurse.
You two always do a good job of keeping us moving along. Thanks again.
Jean