Author Topic: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OCT. 14,2009-Feb.17,2020  (Read 41466 times)

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #200 on: December 07, 2019, 06:34:16 AM »
Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:


Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~

Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion

Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved
January 06.......Branwen the Daughter of Llyr
January 13.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 20.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 27.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
February 03.....The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 10.....Taliesin

Discussion Leader: Barbara


_________________________________________________________________________

Here it is Saturday and I have yet to finish Pwyll's story. Or stories? I am part way through the story of the Lady. It looks like she is playing one suitor against the other and making them both wait for her answer. The beginning sequence is interesting, since it kind of reminds me of dreams where you strive towards something and it continues to keep itself just out of reach. If I think of it, I am going to look it up in dream analysis. Freud and Jung probably have something to say about it.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #201 on: December 07, 2019, 02:03:47 PM »
Whoops I missed the heading and here I was the last one to post on the preceding page - sorry frybabe

And yes, I too have not finished the story(ies) - Officially we have yet another day since we were doing Monday to Monday - got lazy knowing we were picking up after the holidays - spent time this week shopping and deciding how I was going to gift folks this year. Also what has me all cattywampus is this go round of fund raising for PBS - I do not watch much TV but I do look forward to end my day Sat. Sun. Mon and Thur. with Masterpiece and a few Brit Coms.

This fund raising is 3 weeks of absolutely nothing - they have a few 90 minute musical shows and an recap of Poldark and Durrells - period - over and over and over - and so my TV has been off for 2 weeks and I've one more week to go - I did get to see Charlie Brown's Christmas the other night on regular TV but this break in my routine is not making me a happy camper so that I am not getting as much accomplished, including my reading... Hope to get caught up and finish the chapter tonight and if there is any left for sure tomorrow... want to get my cards out tomorrow and with the weather being so pretty I have yard work that sorely needs completing.

Holiday or not I am thankful for the recess - saturated with 6th to 14th century Europe is on the verge of over kill - the break will be welcome.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #202 on: December 08, 2019, 07:18:46 AM »
Well! I think these people have something of a mean streak in them, duping the other suitor for a whole year and setting up an elaborate trouncing once he arrives at the end of that year. And then there were the troops waiting in ambush at the orchard just waiting for the signal to commence attack.

Something I noticed when reading about the rules of combat that lasted a very long time, going way back at least to Troy and most probably beyond that I didn't quite get until recently. When armies gathered to engage in a fight, they often would  sent out their chosen warrior (usually the best they had) into the ground between the armies in order to engage in single combat ahead of the general battle. Personal one-on-one combat was valued above all else, and sometimes, the outcome resolved the conflict (at least temporarily) before others became involved. I don't recall the Roman army engaging much in this practice. When firearms showed up, the practice definitely fell by the wayside. While focusing on one or two individuals, these stories give you a vague awareness of the armies or groups backing up each opponent standing off to the side and waiting for the outcome of the individual conflict.

It appears that in dream analysis, the lady riding by who continues to be just out of reach represents a goal in real life that you feel is just out of reach in real life. Making and following a plan to reach your real life goal generally resolves the dream. In this story we see that Pwyll tried unsuccessfully to reach the lady several times before he modified his plan enough to be able to catch up to her. Then he followed her instructions (the plan itself?) to reach that goal. Set a goal, make a viable plan, follow that plan, modify as necessary, be persistent, achieve your goal.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #203 on: December 08, 2019, 05:17:12 PM »
hmm we all get something different - I see in this the story of Jesus in the form of a women - she is elusive and then with the proper petition allows herself to be known - ask and you shall receive - and then is betrayed by those close to her - both Judas' betrayal and Peter's denial in the Garden - her punishment that is not a crucifixion but she is banned under rough conditions and then the babe if found as if the disbelievers and those on the edge of believing were united and his name would be... not Jesus in this case but a leader's son.

With a story going back this far it shows it must be human nature to blame another rather than admit wrong doing - what was really astonishing is that to this day leadership will take the side of the many rather than loose their support... and then the way I see it, the lady on horseback, you can pursue and pursue but unless you ask nothing is achieved - like marketing - you can sell and sell but unless you ask for the order there is no sale.

In some ways this seemed the easiest story but then it could be it took this many chapters to get used to the style of story telling.

Well tons to do and so I'll be in very haphazard till closer to the big day...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #204 on: December 17, 2019, 11:39:47 AM »
Gosh, what things I find on Project Gutenberg when looking for other things. George Saintsbury popped up.  What a treasure trove of Literary History and critical analysis. One I have downloaded already, The Flourishing of Romance and the Rise of Allegory, and the other I just noticed and will download later, A History of the French Novel, Vol. 1 . Both of these have chapters regarding  writers and writings including about the Authurian legends in Medieval times. Now all I have to do is actually read them. 
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26838
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21600 unfortunately, PG does not list Vol I, so I don't know what is in that.

About George Saintsbury: https://www.britannica.com/biography/George-Saintsbury


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #205 on: December 17, 2019, 01:26:18 PM »
You did find a treasure trove didn't you - taken just a brief look and decided to read later... I get myself all in a knot over making an appropriate change to my lifestyle and then it hits that during the time in history we are reading, change took generations and here I am trying to do it in a couple of years - talk about the world speeding up -

Of course with the holiday I thought I would look to see how the knights and castles celebrated - finding much about a Tudor Christmas but not anything yet about Christmas in the 11th or 10th or back in the 6th century much less anything that is medieval in Wales - I wonder if celebrating the Winter Solstice was overriding any Christian celebration - would fit that both have to do with light in the darkness -

Well for today I need to run several errands and that usually means a nap when I return. Crispy cold here today and I am wearing these gifted snugly boot length, fluffy lined, Nordic knitted socks with a leather sole so I could even go out to get the mail... tra la...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #206 on: December 31, 2019, 06:30:45 PM »
I wonder why...

Been reading The Obstacle the Way based on the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius which I also downloaded - and it hit me -

Why are the writings of men before A.D. revered and placed in the annals of philosophy - translated into pure magic easily understood where as the writings of men who experienced life a thousand or more years later with its truths are seldom if ever quoted as words of wisdom much less included in man's understanding of himself and the world in which he lives? 

And further why are those who lived a couple of thousand years earlier revered and special where as those who lived in the 4th to 6th century are still questioned as myths - even the magic symbolism of Jesus is given more due and respect than the magic of Merlin -

Now I understand that no matter how wonderful the magic of women would be discounted and since no woman is given her probable due in the Bible they are all safe but how about some of the ancient women of Greece and Rome - really sirens luring a soldier on his way home keeping him around for years and referred to as a metaphor to this day - but yet, the women who lured knights are dismissed as nothing more than a fanciful myth - how come?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #207 on: January 01, 2020, 08:27:44 AM »
Barb, here is my early morning musing on your question. I suspect a combination of factors contributed to the dearth of written records and general lack of information to the general public. With the fall of the Roman Empire came a lot of conflict as others jockeyed for positions of power, the feudal system arose, and the church seemed to gain an iron hand over what was appropriate for the general population to know. Keep in mind that the greatest repositories of knowledge, as far as i know, were church sponsored. Many of these were destroyed (in England at least) during raids and fights between church and kings. People had enough on their hands to keep from being slaughtered and keep food on the table for themselves and their families. The feudal system discouraged people living on the feudal lord's lands from moving about much. Subsistence farming and frequent raiding parties created little time to learning things not necessary to making a living. The church did do some educating, but I am not up on just how much, and then everything was censored by church officials. Businessmen/merchants did get around to spread ideas and such, but it was a slow process and primary education among that group remained apprenticeship for learning a trade. What wasn't destroyed by various conflagrations and bad climate conditions had a chance to survive. Oh, and the aristocracy mostly a well educated group, but like the church, I think they considered an education the prerogative of their position and, for the most part, the general population didn't need to know anything other than what was needed to do their jobs, whether it was farming, ironwork, or fighting, etc. Another thought, most of those who did get some education found a way to pay for the classes. No free public education, even in Rome and Athens. Education was revered by the Romans and Grecians, and by others where war and constant conflict are missing. Much (all?) of written history is filtered through the eyes of those who write it and can be inaccurate and very biased, so archeological evidence is sometimes essential. The oral tales, may have begun as an item of "news" which through many tellings got embellished and ending up in the realm of myth, legend and fantasy.

Well, I didn't really answer your question, and I ran out of steam for moment.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #208 on: January 01, 2020, 11:42:45 AM »
doubt we will ever really get to the bottom of this but I saw the Church being as down on the Gods and Goddesses of Greece and Rome where as yes, in England the kings were vying for the position of power.

As to the Church that is an interesting story that because they became so powerful the story is told to fit the narrative - having spent years looking into early church history that at the same time I happened to be reading the history of those tribes that were later to make up German, Netherlands, Belgium and France - actually I was trying to find when all this Jewish hatred started and I think I found it - anyhow in the process in the Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany there is an easier to read account (elsewhere as well but so much thrown in its difficult to sort out)

Seems from 479 to 485 the Visigoths were the most powerful in Europe as was their King - The Visigoth king codified law that included kings should die a natural death. Euric's was not willing to wait and hooks up with the Frankish King Clovis whose wife was a Christian and converted Clovis - Christianity had not stopped Clovis from all the slaughter typical of the times however, during his reign many a monistary was built in what is now Germany - After the death of Clovis his sons inherited his 'kingly grace' which the belief was special ancient blood flowed in their veins that made them magical and if they walked for instance on a field they could make crops grow.

However, they were lazy and when the Franks came along and it was a battle over both the hero worship of Saint Martin of Tours, an ordinary soldier who became a monk and later a Bishop was supposed to have met Jesus who disguised himself as a beggar and Martin shared his cloak that was revered as the Merovingian King's most powerful relic versus the Franks knowledge of how to bake bread, lay bricks, blow glass, make iron farm tools - this back and forth continues on into the time of the Carolingians when Charles Martel's basterd son Pepin III is made king - although Martel conquered most of the tribes in Europe the magic and St. Martin of Tour's cape gave the Merovingian kings more power and so Pepin gets the bright idea to be crowned by the Church whose grace and power come directly from God. Tra la Through this act the Church was given more power as being equal in overseeing and governing most of Europe.

Now inside Rome the Church again came to the rescue - as Rome was falling apart the everyday city services were no longer available, like garbage collection - but more important there was no codified law - the Roman kings and emperors were the law and administered what law was traditional. There were lots of land disputes and paternity disputes that gradually the people could go the the Church courts and have a judgement and so little by little as Rome fell the Church filled the breach without really a plan - (looks like where ever there is law that gives you the upper hand) the huge change in power came about with Constantine.

Lots of early alliances, battles, joining his father in France to cross and take on, winning a battle in what is now York followed by more good moves towards cementing power there is this..."After his victory over Licinius in 324, Constantine wrote that he had come from the farthest shores of Britain as God’s chosen instrument for the suppression of impiety, and in a letter to the Persian king Shāpūr II he proclaimed that, aided by the divine power of God, he had come to bring peace and prosperity to all lands." He is instrumental in getting the church to declare the Council of Nicaea which formed the basis for what we know today as the Roman Catholic religion and laid the ground work for the Church, when adding the power it assumed by crowning Pepin III, to be the Holy Roman Empire.

The Council is when the final nail is in the coffin of followers being officially called Christians, where as, they had been known as followers of Jesus and were basically Jews. Although the word Christian had been bandied about since just before the year 200. Constantine came to power in the very early 300s, the First Council of Nicaea, 325 where the 'Roman' Catholic Church became official as it officially separated from Constantinople and the Eastern Orthodox Church.

The first universities were built in the 11th century (Bologna 1088, Oxford 1096, Cambridge 1209) and so if you wanted an education you had to become a Catholic Priest - that did not mean you practiced your priesthood - many like Petrarch, poet (born 1304) and his brother did not. However, education was only available and later predominately in the monasteries.  This carried on into the new World - e.g. Fordham Prep (High School for boys) and Fordham Univeristy in NY, a Jesuit monastery.

Back to Constantine - his earliest moves was to donate land and buildings to the Bishop of Rome - and that is another story how all churches at first had to have a bishop anointed and assigned by the Pope and a relic (body part) from the earliest sainted followers of Christ and of course having a piece of the cross was tops. In and around Rome there were something like 140 churches and these Bishops eventually became the first Cardinals.   

After all that I am seeing your thought that education controlled by the church would have an influence however, why the emphasis on learning Greek and Latin - even when I went to school most Catholic high schools required you take 4 years of one or the other and sometimes both - which meant translating all those ancient stories - was that it - the middle age stories about knights and their code was written in a colloquial language (English, Welsh, French) as compared to what had been established for several hundred years as classical language?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #209 on: January 01, 2020, 02:31:29 PM »
Well, I can't fault the Church too much because they did keep education alive in areas where the Muslims did not have influence, even if it were just available for the few who had the intellect, the time, the money, and the interest to pursue it. The Romans tended to have a "thing" for all things Greek. If you had dealings with the Roman Empire and its inhabitants you had to know Greek or Latin. They were kind of the universal languages of the day, just like English is now, and who knows what it will be in the future. A universal language is a very handy thing. The Church, with its beginnings in Rome, chose to use Latin. My guess is that Latin stuck around so long because no other language managed to cross the barriers of all these different countries except for Latin until English came along. After Rome fell, I would credit that to the Church and their missionaries. Also consider that Latin and Greek are writ large as being at the root of a number of languages today. However English managed to rise to the top is probably a convoluted journey, but Latin and Greek, at least for what we call Western Civilization, are still sitting in the wings and still useful. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #210 on: January 01, 2020, 07:53:52 PM »
From my perspective frybabe English only became universal after WWII - I'm remembering before the UN and before WWII it was both French and German - you had to know French if you were going into Finance and of course Trade and even our government much less international affairs the communication was French - High Schools in the South always included French as it was the other important language learned in all high schools however, if you were going into medicine you had to know German - years ago a doctor explained to me that until WWII most books on medicine were written in German and before WWII Germany was considered the best place to get an education in medicine

I'm remembering German was seldom taught in High Schools - I bet that was a decision taken after WWI but do not know for a sure - and so Med students had to take a crash course in German during their first year of pre-med - I do know here in Central Texas until as late as the early 1960s German was still the first language used in many grade and high schools in this area - lots of German and Bohemian communities including a heavy German influence here in Austin. 

On the bigger national stage I think it was when science in the early twentieth century stepped out that broke the attached at the hip German influence in medicine and WWII probably cemented that move - not sure of that, just a vague memory of reading it someplace - remember Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain - not thought unusual the setting being in the German speaking part of Switzerland although Mann was German and the location in Davos gave his story a more universal appeal.

And yet, through all this yes, you are right that is the force isn't it because Latin was still used even for important documents - I'm vaguely remembering most legal documents including mortgages were still written in Latin when I was a kid.

With English now dominate and fewer people consciously see the Latin influence in language and fewer kids study either Latin or Greek plus they only now are really delving deeply into the archeology of Arthur who knows what the future will bring - although so much of Roman and Greek History and their stories are kept alive I don't see that influence dying - wasn't it the soldiers returning from the Iraq war who have been gobbling up the Odyssey

Well we start the winter weeks with Mabinogion on the 6th - ha just realized the 12 day of Christmas - I'm ready - the break was just perfect - and evidently we move away from the Arthur stories - have not read ahead to even know what is coming.

Now after all this on language, the history of education and the church I'll forgive  ::) the lack of importance given to the code of behavior by Knights not being as important as knowing the code of behavior and history of the Romans and Greeks...  :D - History is fun - all of a sudden time does not seem like eons ago especially given we still react similar to the ancients during a crisis and their wisdom still hold - I am enjoying and struck by how 'right on' is Marcus Aurelia's Meditations
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #211 on: January 05, 2020, 06:50:57 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llandaff_Cathedral
Nice history of this ancient site and subsequent buildings




Tombs in Llandaff Cathedral include:
Dubricius, 6th-century Briton Saint who evangelised Ergyng (now Archenfield) and much of South-East Wales;
               his body was transferred to Llandaff Cathedral in 1120.
Teilo, 6th-century Welsh clergyman, church founder and Saint
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #212 on: January 05, 2020, 06:59:23 PM »


King Cadwaladr Fendigaid in Stained Glass at
Llangadwaladr Church
St. Cadwaladr Fendigaid, King of Gwynedd
(c.633-682)
(Latin: Catuvelladurus; English: Cadwallader)

Cadwaladr the Blessed was the son of King Cadwallon of Gwynedd and his wife, Alcfrith, sister of King Penda of Mercia.

He was only about a year old when his father died in AD 634. Civil War ensued and the baby's followers were forced to flee the kingdom with him, as the throne was seized by one Cadfael ap Cynfeddw, of unknown origin. Tradition says he was ill for much of his de jure reign, during which time the Civil War in Gwynedd continued on and off. This was not helped by a widespread famine, followed by a plague, that swept through the country at the same time. It is possible that Cadwaladr died of this plague in AD 664, although this was probably his nemesis, King Cadfael.

A tradition, recorded by Geoffrey of Monmouth, has him fleeing to Brittany, where he accepted the hospitality of King Alain Hir (the Tall). Many years later (presumably after Cadfael's death), Cadwaladr sent his son, Ifwr, back to Britain to secure the Royal throne.

We might assume that the King followed him soon afterward for he is said to have been the last monarch to have any semblance of authority over the other Celtic Kings of Britain. He was certainly a great patron of the Gwynedd church, particularly of Clynnog Fawr Abbey. In old age, he may have even become a monk at the Royal monastery of Eglwys Ael (Llangadwaladr) on Ynys Mon (Anglesey). Cadwaladr died while on a pilgrimage to Rome on 12th November AD 682.

His body was brought back to Wales and buried in his church at Eglwys Ael which became named after him, as Llangadwaladr. He was succeeded in the throne of Gwynedd by his son, Idwal Iwrch, but he may have had two other children, Gwrgan and Hywel. Ifwr may well be mythical - or a misspelling of Idwal.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #213 on: January 06, 2020, 07:25:45 AM »
Good Morning, Barb, et.al.

Llandafaff Cathedral sounded very familiar, so off I went to my shelf of British history books. Sure enough, there was the booklet I brought back with me from my visit to Wales in 1969. Looking through the booklet, I can't say that I recall being there. I must have been otherwise I would not have bought it. The booklet did not have a picture of Dubricius' tomb but did show a picture of Tielo's tomb.

I must say that all these 'and' sentence beginnings in these stories kind of drives me nuts. However, I can see where, around a campfire, the oral storyteller would likely continue the stories with 'and' especially after an interruption or pause in the narrative.

Not much here about Aberffraw here, but important to the times we are reading. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberffraw

This is interesting. https://www.sarahwoodbury.com/aberffraw-castle/  Sarah Woodbury is a novelist. She has a degree in anthropology and is the daughter of two historians. All of her novels are set in Wales, none of which I have read. One of her novels only just came to my attention several days ago while book browsing.

I remember the story of Branwen from somewhere else, but it wasn't nearly as extensive as this.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #214 on: January 06, 2020, 12:46:38 PM »
Interesting how names continue in a culture - my daughter lives on the edge of the Appalachian mountains in Saluda NC - tiny town in the mountains - anyhow, we hear of the Scotch Irish having originally settled the area along with others from the British Isles but I never saw much culture in the area particular to anything other than flat out Appalachia - having lived in Kentucky all those years there was the familiarity - they did have some annual Scottish games nearby down the mountain but this story in Mabinogion gave me the clue I was missing - among Katha and friends of her boys there are at least 4 young women and an elder named Brawnwen and two of them spell it differently - I should listen for other names because that is where the culture must continue itself.

Until we started this I had not ever heard of the Triads - not only are they woven into everything but those elevated as early leaders are in threes - have not finished reading yet, started last night - I do notice a different tone and so far this story is much clearer to understand what is happening - maybe the translation was easier since it is about a time with recorded history.

I am having a difficult time imagining how you could brutalize horses as it is described - sheesh
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #215 on: January 07, 2020, 06:41:58 AM »
An amusing coincidence: I'm rereading some of Ellis Peters' Brother Cadfael mysteries.  Cadfael, the detective, is a Benedictine monk living in the Shrewsbury monastery, in the twelfth century, starting in 1137.  Peters wanted a genuine Welsh name for her character, but one rare enough not to have any associations.  She found Cadfael, the baptismal name of Saint Cadoc, or Cadog, which he mostly never used, and which she says doesn't occur elsewhere in Welsh history.

So, Barb, you casually show her sloppiness by giving us the story of the blessed King Cadwaladr and his enemy, the usurper King Cadfael.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #216 on: January 08, 2020, 06:06:58 PM »
I am finally getting around to reading "Branwen the Daughter of Llyr".

The notes clear up some of what I am reading. So, we still don't know for sure if Bendigeid of Llyr was real or not? He shows up in the Mabinogion and the Triads, which is a mish-mash of ancient folklore, tales and historical documents. So, which was he? It appears that he is venerated as a real person, though the Triad information does not correlate well with historical accounts (according to the notes) of Carraticus, who was a very real person.

I was going to put up some video of Harlech, but it appears that there is no evidence of previous structures on Harlech Mound before King Edward I built one. I did find out that one of the four round tour thingies was renamed Branwen, and there is a bird sanctuary nearby in honor of the crows in the story.

Wow! The computer just got knocked off line by a line-spike. I had to reboot, and here I am.  Firefox remembered where I was. I didn't lose my post. How about that. Well, instead of messing around here I should get back to reading the story.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #217 on: January 09, 2020, 11:50:18 AM »
I've also noticed a lot of shutting down in the past 2 weeks - wonder if it is built in signaling for the big change on the 14th - still setting up my new computer - some of what I email over takes hours of work to make it look on the page as it did on the old computer and how my research and thoughts were indented or highlighted in colors that guided me to like thoughts - getting worn out with this change and still not sure what we loose- if it is just that anything before Windows 10 is not longer serviced that is one thing but some make it sound like there will be no access to the internet unless you are running windows 10 or better. Between having lost the use of a couple of TVs a few years ago and now this I am sounding like a crotchety old lady complaining about change.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #218 on: January 10, 2020, 05:51:41 AM »
Uh, Oh, Barb. What have I missed? What change? Not liking the sounds of this.

There is the cauldron again playing a role in the story. Wizardry showing up without a wizard. I am missing something. What is it with keeping the head so long? Did it work magic to keep everybody calm and peaceful? They all forgot the past but somehow did not forget the admonition not to open the door facing Cornwall.  And why Cornwall? Does it have significance or did the tale teller just pick a direction? The notes on the Tuatha de Danann have me interested. Phoenician traders maybe? They certainly would have appeared magical to early inhabitants of Ireland. I am not at all familiar with early Irish archaeological evidence.

I certainly need to reacquaint myself with Caracticus (Caradawc) and Cassivelaunus (Caswallawn), who I met in my Latin Readings (especially Julius Caesar). Ostorius (Eurosswydd) was Publius Ostorius Scapula. He governed Roman Britain from 47AD until his death in 52AD. This gives us an anchor date, backward and forward, to explore possible other real life connections. It looks like there are more than a few.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #219 on: January 10, 2020, 11:14:48 AM »
Back later and yes it appears this tale is a history lesson for us - I'm thinking the story tellers of old would be sharing the bits of who did the big things - like here in Texas we tell our kids all about Houston and Lamar and Travis and Bowie and Crockett - still popular first names and now that kids attend school the stories of these men are part of 6th grade history that is all Texas History - that is what I think this is all about - not just sharing the names but the deed written from the point of view of the culture.

Looking at an Anglo Saxon dictionary last night - forgot their word but the definition was blood icicle - which was the word used to describe blood dripping from a sword - don't think of those little bits of reality that would go with hand to hand battle using swords before guns. Puts the maiming of horses in a different perspective.

back later...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #220 on: January 11, 2020, 07:06:53 AM »
This tale is a little shorter than I expected, but it looks like we will get a kind of continuation in the next two tales.

Regarding the horses, I wonder if there isn't something more to it than Branwen being married with out Evnissyen's consent. Well trained horses, especially warhorses, were valuable. I'd say the poor horses were a target of opportunity. A knight who loses his horse in war is at a severe disadvantage, therefore they were often targeted. It was expensive to train and equip a horse for war, so there was also a monetary loss as well.
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Last night, I found a documentary on how "the Celtic nations received the Gospel of Christ during the Dark Ages" across Britain and Ireland, called Celtic Pilgrimage,  which I hope to watch later on today.
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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #221 on: January 11, 2020, 12:32:48 PM »
Wow talk about like minds - in a way - reading yesterday The Benedict Option - I thought it was going into the Benedictine rule but so far it is explaining not only the difference in culture through the ages since Rome and how the fall of Rome affected not only the city but people in general and then it goes on to explain the viewpoint that people had about themselves in relationship to God through the ages - it appears those who committed to paper the Arthur stories were at the end of the Middle ages - it was during the Middle Ages that peoples view changed from everything and everyone being inhabited by God to a belief that God was an outside force that affected everything and everyone. Again, the author, Rod Dreher goes into how Christianity was just about lost in Rome after Rome fell - that Constantine changed  the western world by changing Rome to a Christian Empire which created the divide from East to West since the East kept the original head and center for Christianity in Constantinople.

I had no idea the vast loss in Rome's population during the late 5th century on into the 6th century - everything really did crumble.

However, the West becoming Christian did not affect what we today see as brutality just as it did not lesson war as the solution for whatever ails the leadership - the difference is for instance, the Knights - they take an oath under God but that said a lot since the oaths that people took for many of their positions and even occupations now had agreed upon rules of behavior.

Out of this I am wondering if maybe we are over looking an important message or component of these tales - I think it will be hard as casual readers rather than scholars to pickup the differences because we live after several more changes as man sees itself as separate, because of science that made a huge change 200 years ago, and as a result many are eliminating the idea that God has anything to do with their life and therefore, as independent individuals we conquer lands, space, micro living creatures etc. Where as those who are still living in the mindset before the French Revelation see God as the center of their lives and for the support that a people that see themselves in relation to God, they group seeking their values from a church denomination as a center or a religion as their center - much as Muslims still are a tribal society who are only now learning they have an individual voice and can vote as an individual as opposed to even as recent as 20 years ago would vote in whatever way the leader voted or the husband voted - etc. and when you look at it, that is how many church going Christians vote.

The change before the Fr. Revolution was Luther who opened thinking that Christians are still reeling from - one thing to rebel against the sins of the Roman Catholic Church but then what to replace it with - and so we have many versions of Christianity with group differences as to how to seek God or live in a Godly way.

And so back to our story - it would be difficult for us who even if we are church going Christians to read these stories with the mindset of the times that appears to be that every human is an outgrowth so to speak an appendage of God - that God dwells in every molecule of man and all that surrounds him therefore anything from a rainstorm to a summer breeze is by the will of God - I am wondering if we are supposed to pick up the difference in behavior within these stories, as the difference between those who became or were Christian as opposed to those who are still living with the laws, I guess of the Druids - whatever was the group think before Christianity.

For sure since we now know Arthur was a Roman Soldier and several times we are reminded he is Christian if some of the conflicts we read about were showing the difference between the Knight who was Christian and the opponent, like dwarfs and giants etc as non-Christian and this is how they act, how they use magic and ultimately how they lose.     
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #222 on: January 12, 2020, 12:08:38 PM »
Wow, that's pretty deep, Barb.  For some reason I feel kind of baffled by the story, even though on the face of it it's straightforward.  I need to read it again more carefully.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #223 on: January 12, 2020, 01:43:33 PM »
Interesting - two stories about a horses in the Arthur stories - and here I thought we were no longer in the Arthur stories but using this link it appears Branwen, Daughter of Llyr is a shadow story for Trystan and Essyllt  - the second is the short synopsis of the story of Branwen - and then the essay shows the connections. Found the site  when looking up the word Talebolion which appears to mean a pedigree of horses since the time of the Tudors. Another definition, Talebolion on Anglesey, a place-name supposedly meaning “Payment of horses”

http://secretsavalon.blogspot.com/2016/07/the-mysteries-of-avalon-chapter-eight.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #224 on: January 12, 2020, 02:33:54 PM »
http://www.inherownwords.com/rhiannon2.htm

"Rhiannon is the story of a lady that is from another world ~ called the Bright world ~ and she leaves her kingdom to become the wife of a king ~ a mortal king ~ but goddesses really can't marry mortal kings, if they do they lose their powers ~ their magic powers. And they don't lose the knowledge of them they just ~ they know everything that's going to happen they just can't do anything about it. Which is a much more difficult way to live than not having magic powers is to not be able to use them and know exactly what's coming and to not be able to tell anybody. So she comes down and does her whole trip, and it's just a whole story ~ it's a wonderful story.

And she has these birds that sing and that is the legend of the song of the birds of Rhiannon. And they sing this song that is uh, said takes away pain and suffering and if you hear the song you just sort of blank out and go away and then when you wake up everthing's all right. And it is a wonderful, wonderful story ~ there seems to be a lot of need for the story of Rhiannon around lately, because if people are sad or have lost anybody or something the story really makes a lot of sense."

here it is in song

http://branawen.blogspot.com/2011/08/adar-rhiannon-birds-of-rhiannon.html
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #225 on: January 12, 2020, 02:38:01 PM »
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #226 on: January 12, 2020, 02:49:42 PM »
The Irish origin of Cunedda should not be a surprise to us, as there is the well-documented case of the Welsh genealogy of the royal house of Dyfed, which was altered to hide the fact that Dyfed was founded by the Irish Deisi. We know this because we have the corresponding Irish genealogy from a saga which tells of the expulsion of the Deisi from Ireland and their settlement in Dyfed. As is true of Cunedda's pedigree, in the Welsh Dyfed pedigree we find Roman names substituted for Irish names. There were other Irish-founded kingdoms in Wales as well, e.g. Brycheiniog.

http://secretsavalon.blogspot.com/2017/05/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #227 on: January 12, 2020, 02:59:30 PM »
this story to me is listing all the ancient names - some myth and others historical - to me the most profound story within this story is the three birds and the story of Rhíannon that ties it all together.

Do not know how or where but I am remembering years ago, maybe as a teen reading about the 200 warriors hiding in the sacks and their life being taken. The story has to be included in other literature because I'm almost sure this was way before I even knew about the Irish, Scandinavian much less Welsh Sagas
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #228 on: January 13, 2020, 10:52:11 AM »
Goodness this week flew by - here it is Monday the 13th and onward - have not read the chapter but will later today.

I am sure we could look up each of those named in last week's chapter - and I may still do that - but I am anxious to get on with this story - since this new section was supposed to be more Welsh than Arthur I want to know more about the early Welsh.

So far it appears you must be familiar with the Triads and it appears Irish myths and stories are entwined in the Welsh history, myths and stories. I've always wanted to get into the ancient Irish stories and myths but that would be herculean from the little reading I have done over the years - not at all like grabbing the Arthur stories that I think we researched enough to get a good handle on...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #229 on: January 13, 2020, 02:26:22 PM »
I barely got started reading it, Barb, before getting interrupted. Since Narberth Castle is mentioned, here are some great pictures of the current ruins. This pile of ruins was built around 1257AD. http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/808.html

Previously, there was a mottle and bailey (or ringwork according to who you read) style castle/manor house nearby that was built and destroyed at least three times between the 10th and 13th centuries. Supposedly, it was used as by the Templars. Some believe that it was the original site of the castle at Narberth. This is what it may have looked like. http://www.templetonheritagegroup.org.uk/sentencecastle.html


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #230 on: January 14, 2020, 03:51:00 AM »
Nightbringer has a short version of the story that is easy to read - I found reading it first made Lady Guest's translation easier to understand.

https://www.nightbringer.se/a_manawydan.html

looks like looking into each of the names from last weeks story may not be an extra but a necessity to follow what is happening

Still do not get the point of any of this - it all sounds like a magical fairytale but even a fairytale has a point - this one almost sounds like a creation story - what do you think? Although I guess a re-creation since it was all their and magic has it disappear only to appear later. It does I guess give us the names of the original dynasties for both Ireland and Wales.
 
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Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #231 on: January 14, 2020, 07:42:16 AM »
Barb, here is another book about might have something to say about the time period(s) we are encountering. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/61161 The Saxons in England, Volume 1 (of 2) by John Mitchell Kemble in which the first Chapter is titled "Saxon and Welsh Traditions."

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #232 on: January 15, 2020, 11:30:22 AM »
Cruising around YouTube this morning I found this doc on King Arthur's Britain which concentrates on the archeological evidence, including the old texts. At least that is how it starts out. I got interrupted so have to get back to it later. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy-sTJAid3I I think this is a series.

Timeline also has one which is the first of three https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK5WrCseFYI I may have seen some of this one.

Short video on the spread of the Celtic languages. I like the maps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKG8_dB_yAA

Now back to my reading, I hope. I've already been interrupted three times today, and my sister may stop by later this afternoon.



BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #233 on: January 15, 2020, 02:52:51 PM »
Just watched the first link in its entirety - Wow so much of that film matched other readings I've been doing - I can see that today we do not take a story on faith which is how the Arthur story was passed on till the last 200 years when empirical evidence replaces faith - learning how faith was the glue till Sir Francis Becon and Descartes changed all that -

I can see how faith was not specific but rather taking the ordinary for granted and then building on the special event or person a story that shows their 'magic' if you will or outsized virtue - Whereas, today we want truth which is really saying, since we are no longer privileged to know or understand what was ordinary a couple of thousand years ago we want to pull apart the story and see what is fact and what is outsized and all our research and tech equipment will allow us to do jut that.

I did like the last bit where he explains we need both - he suggests that the story and history is as important as the empirical evidence - I'm thinking two fold in that the evidence has less meaning without the story and history -

And then the big one for me is, I've been reading about trade and banks - this film shows that a trading center comes about when you have something of value to trade. That thought for me has opened a new way of looking at us as individuals - If wealth is knowledge then whomever has the knowledge to obtain or realize a use for something and then has a surplus of that something - even if intellectual property - they have more value than someone whose only imagination is to sell their physical self as in labor - oh I could go on and on - and yes, the obvious but for me to break it down and really see, I can now appreciate why some have better paying jobs or some can use their knowledge to tap into using something that others do not see its potential value. 

A story I read only last week, how one man sees value in the discarded items from the many who are downsizing - he was a creator of the wonder windows in department stores during the Christmas season and now that he is retired he creates these wonder sets for sale. Evidently, as the windows were built so is he building sets using items thrown away and now instead of being hired for his imagination and skill interpreting that imagination he is considered an artist and is making 4 times the income he did all those years when he sold his imagination and skill to further industry through marketing.

It appears, from the film this spot on the cliffs of Cornwall attracted trade from all over the Mediterranean because they had something valuable that others wanted - tin - and so that says to me when someone is selling a specialized bit of knowledge they too would be valued and receive more 'good's' income and if they have as surplus they can further trade for more 'good's' income. I finally really get it... I know we all know this but for me this is I guess empirical evidence :)

I can also see why I've been reading for years and years the history of the church that is not always so wonderful - many consider what i have been doing as anti-religion and yet, I can pick out the line of theology that keeps my faith - nothing is pure and nothing is perfect no matter how much church leadership would like you to accept but, that does not mean, as the old saying goes you throw the baby out with the bath water and I found an awful lot of dirty bathwater. And so with that thinking I'm comfortable enjoying and finding valor and wonderment in the Arthur stories even if evidence shows they are not spot on matching the story with scientific research for facts and truth.

Ha ha all that to say, yep reading the Arthur stories is not only enjoyable as if a fairytale but insightful and even educational as I see human nature reliving today what is told in these stories.

Thanks frybabe - that was a turning point film
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #234 on: January 15, 2020, 03:19:17 PM »
Started the second link and got 10 minutes into the first of the three and had to stop - I'll never get anything done and I need to fix lunch plus in his own way he is repeating what the first link youtube had to say... yep there is more to the dark ages than what our history books have been telling us...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #235 on: January 15, 2020, 03:45:10 PM »
Yeah, I got that too, Barb. I just like to see the countryside and the ruins.

This was another short tale. Don't know what the point of the story was either, but it did remind me of the phrase, "every action has a reaction".  Certainly can't be a moral tale for clemency; the guy who cast the spell in the first place didn't show any did he. Maybe don't torment/bully/pick on others lest you find yourself at the receiving end one day? I didn't see any apologies in that tale either, but a negotiation to set the value of the trade. Personal though it is it is still a trade negotiation, all my stuff back and no spells in trade for your mouse daughter.  And I see you posted something along those lines below, too.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #236 on: January 15, 2020, 04:15:11 PM »
Oh, and I just thought of the book I read years ago that explains some of the trade along the Cornish and Welsh coasts. It is The Extraordinary Voyage of Pytheas the Greek by Barry Cunliffe. Cunliffe is an archaeologist and academic. Since 2007 he is Emeritus Professor from Oxford University. One of his more famous excavations is that of Fishbourne Palace  at Chichester. While he began with an interest in Roman Britain, he later became interested in Iron Age Britain and the Celts.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #237 on: January 20, 2020, 07:30:51 AM »
I've been reading Adrian Goldsworthy's Vindolanda. It occurred to me, finally, that the main character in the story is Welsh. Right now, though, he is part of a delegation to a powerful clan/tribal leader who is able to gather and command a confederation of clans, including those from overseas. It reminded me that there are more than a few who believe that King Arthur was seated in Scotland. The time period for this tale is wrong for King Arthur, though, but maybe not for his dad or granddad.

So now we have another tale of wizardry. I am into it just a little ways. What a strange beginning. Math cannot exist without his feet being on a maiden's lap? How odd. I am not sure what is going on with all the job switching, and once again pigs feature in the story. They must really, really like pigs.

Ending the story, I found this about the Llech Gronw and the ending of Blodeuwedd https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/12/country-diary-llech-ronw-mabinogion-ffestiniog

Now all I have to do is read the middle of the tale.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #238 on: January 20, 2020, 03:19:59 PM »
Looky here what I found Barb, a Glossary of Welsh Mythology from the Theosophical Society, Cardiff Lodge. http://theosophywales.org/theosophy206/Glossarywelshmythology.htm  It explains all those weird names we come across.


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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #239 on: January 20, 2020, 06:35:39 PM »
Wow great find frybabe - the day got away from me - long email exchange with my sister and then my daughter and my daughter-in-law called - I guess everyone was off today for MLK celebration and so they all called - took my awhile to figure out how come they were calling during the day...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe