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Title: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: BooksAdmin on October 28, 2009, 06:15:48 PM

That Old Cape Magic
by
Richard Russo

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/sagbridge.jpg)

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/oldcapecvrsm.jpg)

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/mapcapecodsm.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/map.capecod.jpg)

From Bookmarks (http://www.bookmarksmagazine.com/book-review/old-cape-magic/richard-russo) magazine:
Following Bridge of Sighs—a national best seller hailed by The Boston Globe as “an astounding achievement” and “a masterpiece”—Richard Russo gives us the story of a marriage, and of all the other ties that bind, from parents and in-laws to children and the promises of youth.
The storytelling is flawless throughout, moments of great comedy and even hilarity alternating with others of rueful understanding and heart-stopping sadness, and its ending is at once surprising, uplifting and unlike anything this Pulitzer Prize winner has ever written.

From The Washington Post (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/23/books-old-cape-magic/)
Every year, Jack Griffin's parents would drive from the Midwest, where they were both unhappy-to-miserable college professors, to spend two weeks in a rented cottage somewhere on the beautiful island of Cape Cod, Mass., and as they crossed the Sagamore Bridge they would, as if on cue, begin to sing "That Old Cape Magic," their altered version of "That Old Black Magic."

Questions for Chapters 1 - 3

1. What were your first thoughts as you began reading this book?
Is it different in some way from what you might have expected - less sunny, despite the glorious ambiance - more serious?

2. After reading the first three chapters (52 pages), what is your impression of Griffin, the narrator?
He does acknowledge his "petulance" in the very first paragraph of Chapter One but seems reluctant to apologize to Joy, his wife.

3. Do you think the appearance of Griffin's mother in the first chapter, "A Finer Place", is essential by way of an explanation (if one were neded) for Griffin's behavior?

4. Were you amused or appalled reading Griffin's revelations of his parents' professional and personal lives?

Discussion Leader: Traude (xx)

Traude will be along shortly to open "That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online."

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: CallieOK on October 31, 2009, 11:10:30 PM

x marks my spot.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 01, 2009, 07:20:10 AM

Just locating a seat 'til Traude arrives.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 01, 2009, 08:58:17 AM

Good morning! Greetings to CallieOK and Babi, the early birds. Thank you.
Now that we have regained the hour we "lost" in the spring, things are, one feels, where they should be.

So, what do we think, what can we say, about this book?
The tale is told by the narrator, who's also the main protagonist.
It is his perspective of events and his quotes of what other characters said.
Is the narrator trustworthy? Reliable?
For now we may as well consider Griffin to be reliable.

(Some of you may remember that a few years ago we had occasion to question exactly the same point in a memorable discussion of Kashuo Ishiguro's The Remains of the Day, made into a beautiful film.)

At this point in our story Griffin's malaise and palpable dissatisfaction are the focus.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 01, 2009, 10:06:06 AM

Hello-I'm here and waiting for the discussions to begin. I'll be checking in periodically to read comments (and perhaps add my own).
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 01, 2009, 10:52:40 AM

I'm here also and eager to see others' take on this family (?) of characters.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Gumtree on November 01, 2009, 11:08:15 AM

I'm here too - willing, if not quite ready. I'm just off to reread those first few chapters so I wont give away any spoilers. I'll be back in the morning - my morning.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 01, 2009, 11:56:03 AM

Gulp. Well in the interest of starting something off I'll start, tho it's kind of hard to even start, isn't it? I don't know what this book is about, which will be obvious from this post, despite having finished it and now rereading it. That makes it difficult to talk. What IS it about, do you think?

I love Traude's questions in the heading:

1. What were your first thoughts as you began reading this book?
Is it different in some way from what you might have expected - less sunny, despite the glorious ambiance - more serious?

My first thoughts were what an exceedingly pretentious, unpleasant pair his parents were and why is he so obsessed with them at…is it 57?

He's going to the wedding of his daughter's friend, without his wife tho she's following, which is carefully explained, the family dynamics here are swirling and hard to follow, seems to be two or is it three parallel spheres of existence: now the past Mid F'….ing West and the loss of dreams by this exceedingly bitter mother (or so I see her, that retirement speech at the university…what on earth is wrong with the woman? She's in a "second rate institution…as are the vast majority of our students, as are we." Page 20).

I can't figure out who the woman blames for being second rate. Herself? Don't think so. And it seems her son has picked up some of the traits tho I sense he's fighting it, he wants one career, his wife thinks not…

I can't figure out what "The Cape" really meant to his parents?

As if happiness were a place? (page 16) but when they get there out come the Real Estate Guides, Couldn't Afford it Wouldn't Have it as a Gift.

What do you call this type of approach to life?

I love to read the real estate guides wherever I travel and do some vicarious If I Won the Lottery dreaming, so I was somewhat surprised to see I'm not the only one, but so much BITTERNESS here! So much!

"A house here was part of their long-range, two-part plan to escape the Mid…f…ing West. First they would find real jobs back East, where they'd locate a suitable apartment to rent. This would allow them to save money for a house on the Cape, where they'd spend summers and holidays and the occasional long weekend, until of course they retired---early if they could swing it---and lived on there full- time, reading and writing op-eds and, who knew. Maybe even trying their hand at a novel."

So would we say the Cape represented the pathway to a good life? Dreams fulfilled? But it soon with the Wouldn't Have it as a Gift stuff resolved itself into more bitterness.

So they lived in dreams and bitter reality. That sarcasm she used, at 85 with her son: "You remember books, right? Bound objects? Lots and lots of pages? Print that goes all the way out to the margins?" (page 17)

That triumph she felt when his father didn't even make it to the Cape the whole time.

The CAPE looms large here, in an eerie parallel maybe of his mother's voice on the phone and his father's semi slient one in the trunk, the CAPE is the third passenger, but why?

Nasty person. She calls, his father calls from the trunk, what does she think she's doing, why is she doing it?

No I don't see any bright promise here at all. Unless he can rise triumphant. Do we care enough about him so far to hope that? I think so, I do anyway, I hope he can make a mature resolution but he, also, is headed for the "Cape."

But I can't figure out what I do see, so far, in the first 52 pages, is he running from his parents, desperate to dump dad and get rid of mom's calls? Trying to find the strength?

I hate to say it but in the first 50 pages, to me, the mother is the strongest (albeit the most unpleasant) character so far and she's only on the phone.

And now, in the last of the first 52 pages we have ...is it a parallel thing going on in the Great Truro accord?

Like Gum, I need to reread. I can't figure out what Griffin sees in the Cape, either. Lots to ponder here.

And also, this little thing keeps creeping in: is it funny, do you think? Or possibly intended as funny?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 01, 2009, 01:48:51 PM

Quote

1. What were your first thoughts as you began reading this book?
Is it different in some way from what you might have expected - less sunny, despite the glorious ambiance - more serious?

Sad is how I felt --very sad for this man

Quote

2. After reading the first three chapters (52 pages), what is your impression of Griffin, the narrator?
He does acknowledge his "petulance" in the very first paragraph of Chapter One but seems reluctant to apologize to Joy, his wife.

I was mystified by what had happened between Jack and Joy to cause him to leave a day early without her, to sound (p.42) as if they're no longer close/intimate. It sounded as if something huge had caused a fight.

It's hard to understand how any child could know what intimacy/family love should be with that pair of biological providers who gave him life. I can't think of them as "parents"...the "father" is an inept, womanizing bore and the "mother" is a snob and a bitch and, to my view, they both hugely overrate their own intellectual abilities.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 01, 2009, 01:57:04 PM

I have to keep thinking of an 85 year old woman. Why, do you think, does she keep calling him?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 01, 2009, 02:42:10 PM

Well put, Ginny, Thank you.

No wonder Griffin high-tailed it out of the Midwest to put distance between him and his parents!
An appallingly tactless mother, in my view. (I've known women like that. They were always right -or so they thought.) The philandering father is hardly much better. How could this pair not have marked their only offspring?

Griffin charted his own course for LA and, at least in the beginning, seemed happy with it. He wanted nothing to do with the "standards" and values his parents so firmly believed in. But how could he not be scarred? Had the exposure to these values gone deeper than he realized? He has been suffering from sleeplessness and worried that he was becoming like his father, who had a difficulty making up his mind.
Why has he carried his father's urn in the trunk of his car for nearly a year ? There's something macabre about this, I believe, and unfunny.

We are plunged headlong into the middle of the narrator's crisis and, before we can speculate on the causes, we are told the history of this small unhappy family. Surely that's one underlying cause of Griffin's current crisis. Yet is it possible that Griffin has inherited his mother's selfish trait?

The Cape is probably a character in the story, as you said, Ginny. A kind of Shangri La, an unattainable peak, an aspiration. To me, the parents' shenanigans are not funny, and I, too, see lots of bitterness and sarcasm. The story is very different from anything by Russo I've read before. This one is more personal and, in fact, has led people to believe it is autobiographical. Some basic issues are universal, though.

"Marriage and family have changed in the last thirty years", the author confirmed in a short interview during the first Boston Book Festival in October, "... there's no doubt in my mind. We're living longer, and we have to nurse our grievances longer..."

We are given an interesting glimpse into the life of script writers who, according to Griffin, are often broke between "crappy" assignments. The language is salty and glib. The author is fond of the phrase "a couple of" and, unfortunately, omits the "of" on several occasions. It is an all too frequent, lamentable omission against which I campaigned (in vain) in our old Writers Exchange group on SN.

Russo is marvelous with flashbacks and spot-on :)characterizations. That's why the mother infuriates us so much. So far, Griffin is a dark figure, not what we'd call simpatico. Joy, the wife, appears almost saintly by comparison and Laura is lovely.

Happiness or the search for it is another thread of the theme, I believe.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: winsummm on November 01, 2009, 03:11:51 PM

I read a sample on my kindle and decided that I not only didn't like the writing but also the protagonist. So, I wiped it off and proceeded to others. I take samples of anything that looks interesting and they are usually at least three chapters long. I'm getting fussier with the freedom to do that. I'm currently into the darwin conspiracy" which I like very much.

since mid march I have read over sixty books on the kindle and uncounted samples since I delete them after reading them. Other books are kept at Amazon in my archive forever as well as I know, but maybe not.

claire

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 01, 2009, 03:48:23 PM

Remember the deluge of self-help books that came out in the 60’s and 70’s? Games People Play? Seems to be some game playing here -- and conditions – “I’ll say I’ll go, and if she says I’ll cancel my meeting, (which she won’t) then I won’t go.” The real estate books – just a game. William and Mary know nothing will come of it. Mother Mary knows she’s not going to like the next retirement place any more than the one she’s in, but she’ll play that game of “next one, next year, will be better.”

Quote

So they lived in dreams and bitter reality.

You’ve nailed it there, Ginny. They dream of someday being happy, and the bitter reality is it ain’t gonna happen.

page 17 – “His mother had made him a stationary target, and this was the result.” Does this mean he’s stuck, he just takes whatever s_ _ _ comes along?

Quote

4. Were you amused or appalled reading Griffin's revelations of his parents' professional and personal lives?

Definitely not amused. As Jane has alreay remarked, You feel “very sad for this man.”

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 01, 2009, 03:59:32 PM

Well said, Traude, Ginny, and Pedln.

Claire...sorry your reading of the excerpt didn't appeal. It's, for me, the first current / new novel I've truly enjoyed in a long, long time. It seemed more honest, more appealing, more "real" in its characters than much of what I consider to be highly overdone, very pseudoliterary garbage that's put out as "literature" today.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 01, 2009, 04:21:50 PM

Hello, Claire. Wonderful to see you! I thought of you just this morning (telepathy again!) and am sorry not to have been in touch. There seems hardly time for anything these days; too many things are left undone, especially correspondence.
Sigh.

Kindle must be a great comfort to you; it saves time and is gentler on your eyes. I'm happy for you.
I'm glad you came in to say how you feel about this book. All responses are welcome and valued.
Not all books please all readers, that's a given. This one is rather abstract and Griffin is not an attractive character. But I've embarked on this journey and hope to be able to see it through. (And I will contact you, as soon as I can.)

Thank you for posting.
Best, T

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 01, 2009, 05:45:32 PM

Pedln and Jane, thank you both for your post.

Pedln, I fully concur with what you said. We should pity Griffin - but not too much. He does a good job of that himself :).

Early on it is clear that Griffin is the "authority" in the marriage, and not only linguistically when he objects to Joy's mixed metaphors. In the last paragraph on p. 4 he declares, firmly,
" Worse, Joy preferred to watch movies on DWD rather than in the theater as they were meant to be seen ..." Says who??? My way or the highway ??

Jane, it takes courage, I believe, to lay open a marriage so publicly; such honesty is to be admired - especially at an age when appearances matter more than ever. I have no doubt that some memories are the author's own, and why not? Fo example, riding in the car with his parents, hanging over the backseat, trying to catch the gist of their conversation, unbelted. What a lovely detail!

We need to look also at the mother's nickname for her second husband, a philosopher named Bart, as "Bartleby". Was she referring to Bartleby the Scrivener, Melville's veiled complaint that Moby Dick wasn't selling better?
Another small reward? :D

What we have here, I believe, is a sober reflection on an utterly failed marriage (Griffin's parents') and an endangered one = his own. What we have to discover, jointly with the narrator, when and how the fissure in Griffin's marriage came about. Especially since all signals were auspicious, when he relished being emancipated from his parents - and they still hover in the background.
What we need to know more about is the time Griffin and Joy, and then Laura, spent in LA. There's no full answer to that in chapters 1-3.

At this point in our story we know
that Laura will be in the wedding of her California friend Kelsey, which will take place on the Cape;
that Griffin has driven ahead alone, carrying with him the portfolios of his students to grade or correct.
He stops on the road (and, let me tell you, some n the Cape do not have shoulders!) to take a call from his mother.
The narrator's account of it is instructive: we learn that he has shouldered part of the cost of his mother's stay in the facility for the elderly. A good son, in that regard. Isn't he?
Who could possibly blame him for keeping Joy and Laura away from his overbearing tactless mother?

And yet we wonder. We are hearing one side only.

That reminds me. A lifetime ago we had a petty but festering dispute in our all-girls high school (no co-ed then). Our wise Latin professor, a wonderful teacher whom we called affectionately "Meyerle" (little Meyer) settled it once and for all with the quote Audiatur et altera pars
= hear also the other part. A lesson worth learning, I've never forgotten it.

Thankyou for being here with me. Our being together here is vital and a wonderful opportunity to exchange views. I believe that we do not have to LIKE a book (even though LIKING helps :) :) ) to have a good discussion.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 01, 2009, 05:52:52 PM

I think the Cape symbolizes the "something else", the perfect spot that will bring them the happiness and contentment they seek. Some people never find "the perfect spot" because they are sure that someone or some place else will bring them the contentment they seek. Griffin also seems determined to sabotage his own happiness. Why? Does he feel he doesn't deserve to be happy? Why did he go to the Cape without Joy, even tho he really wanted to be travelling with her?

It is obvious from the beginning that his family was really disfunctional. Why did G feel more resentment for Joy's parents (Harve & Jill) than he did for his own? Was it because it forced him to realize how self-centered and disinterested (in him) his parents really were?

Griffin hasn't found the "perfect" spot to bury his father's ashes. He subconsciously is not ready to release his father and won't be until he comes to some resolution about his feelings.

This book is not as light as I thought it was going to be; and I do not find it humorous--just slightly sad. I have never been a fan of dark comedy. Is that what this book is? Wow! Russo is great at creating characters that you really get to know in a few short pages, isn't he?

Griffin is reliable as a narrator because this is his story as he sees it "warts and all".

Straude, how long do we stay on the first 53 pages? Just wondering.

Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 01, 2009, 07:11:01 PM

Sally, many thanks for your post and the good questions.

While we do have a well-proven pattern, or format, for these monthly discussions - because guidelines are necessary in every endeavor - there has to be room for an exception for a different kind of book.
That is what we have here : the evolving story of a family; in-laws; crises (yes, plural); the elusive search for happiness; unearned enittlement; and, yes again, hope. This is one coherent narrative and desrves to be discussed as such - as a whole. No division could do the job, in my humble opinion

By all means, let's go on to Chapter 4, if participants are willing, because it is important: it was the spark for this book.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 01, 2009, 10:15:18 PM

Sally....your first paragraph in your post says exactly what I thought also. I think you're reading my mind! ;)

This is what I'd written in my response to questions 3 & 4:

Quote

3. Do you think the appearance of Griffin's mother in the first chapter, "A Finer Place", is essential by way of an explanation (if one were neded) for Griffin's behavior?

Yes, yes, yes. He's had no attention, love, caring, nurturing from this woman who gave birth to him.

Quote

4. Were you amused or appalled reading Griffin's revelations of his parents' professional and personal lives?

Appalled and sad that two people could both find endless excuses for their own problems. It's always "the place," "the lack of money,"or "the current lover" summed up on p. 16 where she apparently believed that "happiness was a place." I've known people who were always sure if they just took another job somewhere else, their problems would be fixed. They never were, of course, any more than they were for this miserable couple...since the "problems" moved right with them since their behaviors/personality/character WERE the problems.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 02, 2009, 12:24:58 AM

Hmmm...I have to say these first three chapters are a bit boring and borish. Griffin has no substance just like his parents, wife and daughter. These type of people I tend to avoid, because while they think they are above the rest, and name drop their ivy league education, vacation spots etc. they are empty in life. In these chapters I find NO true emotions or connections. Joy's family is descriibed as a happy normal middle American family, yet why do I get the impression she is not? Griffin seems to have married a woman much like his mother, and he has become his dreaded fear his father. Gee if I had to describe this book so far I would have to say its....Much ado about nothin.

I truly am trying to give it a fair chance to intrigue me, interest me, entertain me, or even excite me, but I must say it has not started off to do anything but bore me. I actually found myself dosing off to sleep many times while reading these pages and then rereading what I forgot because I was not the least bit interested to learn much more about these characters. I am a very happy, positive person and although I had a childhood that would make Griffin's seem like Christmas morning, I can honestly say I made the decision to not follow the pattern I was raised in.

If the Cape is indeed much like Griffin describes it as, I have been completely disappointed in wanting to go visit it. So far black it is....I'm not so sure I see any magic at all. Sorry everyone I don't mean to be a downer or a party pooper, but this is a depressing book and I have a feeling it may not get much better with a divorce and death lurking. EEEKKK how much can we go through to get to a possible happy ending. And if there is a happy ending how believeable will it be? Not that every story needs or must have a happy ending but I would hope something is worth looking forward to in this book.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: winsummm on November 02, 2009, 12:29:55 AM

the perfect spot is inside and as a surviver of a failed marriage I don't want to experience those feelings and attitudes again. the sample gave me a dose of that and it was more than enough.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Gumtree on November 02, 2009, 05:05:19 AM

My goodness - so many great posts already. This book has definitely stirred up plenty of reactions.

In the early stages I had moments of recognition simply because for a start my real name is Joy - and then, like our character Joy, I come from a large family - lots of siblings, inlaws, aunts, uncles, cousins... whereas my DH is not only an only child but has few cousins who lived at a distance. So, especially in the early years of our marriage he had no understanding of the relaxed family atmosphere and banter apparent during family-get-togethers - the 'in' jokes, family stories etc.
Oddly enough, DH would always tune in to his favourite music on the drive home while I was often silent as we readjusted to 'our life' where we were both happy to be. It took DH quite a while to adjust to my family get togethers but he managed fine and soon began to give and take in a like manner. He shows no visible scars.

As Ginny suggests, I think the book was meant to be funny but there is a serious and possibly tragic undertone which overshadows any humour that may be there - dark though it may be.

I find Jack to be rather bitter and resentful of Joy's family and their hold over her. He seems also resentful of his LA friend and partner who is still writing those screenplays. He is angry with his own parents - well, who wouldn't be! The sarcasm, snobbishness and sheer bitchiness evident in the mother is almost unbelievable. Above ll Jack is angry with himself for reasons that are not clear yet.

Cape Cod is a Shangrila.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 02, 2009, 06:39:15 AM

Sometimes you have to entertain negative thoughts about a book and/ or read a book which s not all sunshine and flowers, sort of soldier thru, to find out what the author is saying, what point he's making here, and then to decide if it's worth it and he achieved it. I do think this IS done for a purpose, but so far I can't figure out what?

I don't know what, or who, at this point, it's about, and so I don't know where to focus my allegiances, and that's a strange feeling. Somewhat like being in a car, burdened by the need to do something with the baggage we all have, driving to a destination but uncertain when i get there what I'll do.

If you back off from it a bit and look at it carefully it's ludicrous. The plot is ludicrous. Traude mentioned that he's paying for his mother's care, the good son? He must be trying to be a good son, taking those abusive calls, trying to find (and not succeeding, even with dead ashes) closure. What's going on with him and his father's ashes? Why can't he be straight with her?

Pedln mentions conditions, IF you do this THEN I'll do that, and game playing. I truly think Russo is trying to do something bold here, I don't think this is a sloppy causal book. Is it autobiographical? Is Griffin Every Man in middle age?

Gum mentions "he sarcasm, snobbishness and sheer bitchiness evident in the mother is almost unbelievable." Yes, almost an over the top characterization and so is the ashes in the trunk, that's what makes me think this is intended as good humored if not funny (think of it as a movie, kind of a Little Miss Sunshine or perhaps Chevy Chase in Vacation), beaten down but well meaning son, a symbol for all middle aged sons, has not only the carping mother on the phone he's got the father in the trunk).....is this a grown up Portnoy, tryiing to finally...finally....what? WHAT? That's the issue with me, and Sally caught something I missed: hit it on the head.

Sally!! Good heavens, yes, nearly jumped out of my chair: Why did G feel more resentment for Joy's parents (Harve & Jill) than he did for his own? Was it because it forced him to realize how self-centered and disinterested (in him) his parents really were?

Or could it be something else? That's fabulous, Sally, I missed it entirely, I think I got swept up in his passive aggressive (or do we think that's what it is?) reaction to everything?

Man with a Load of Sorrows, literally. Are we supposd to like him? Identify with him? He's not an ax murderer after all.

Gum mentions the return after a big family gathering, to their regular life. There's a normal life, and then there's the one in the car with mom harping on the phone, demanding a visit (ostensibly to take her library books).

Am I the only one who sees her as wanting attention, respect, AND love?

Griffin has his father's ashes in the car and his mother haunting him on the phone, and he keeps enduring. I cannot figure out what the mother is after: attention? Love? That criticism she does makes me think, perversely, that perhaps she wants to finally be appreciated, by somebody. For her....ah.....high aspirations and education? For what? She wants to finally succeed, I think. They all do.

Traude says she thinks the quest for happiness is a theme, I hope I've paraphrased that correctly. Quest, they're all on a quest, but what for, that's the issue, do they even know? Could this be one of those books where it's evident to the reader but not the players what's going on?

I hope not because I can't figure out for myself, what IS going on.

I think Griffin wants his father to succeed, too. He wants to make it all right, why them first instead of himself?

She still has privileges, you know, in the library, she's writing a book.

As Jane said, they take their own misery with them, Griffin takes his in phone calls and the car trunk. But he could shuck that off.

I can't get a handle on any of them, yet, so I don't know who to focus on, like Gum's family reunion (I'm an only child, so is Griffin, big families are incomprehensible to me). Is it because they're not well written, they are not fully fleshed out or realized, or is it because it's early days yet, or could it be that there's another reason? If so he's a heck of a writer.

I also found my attention wandering when reading, I'm not sure why, it's an easy quick read. Maybe he is pushing some buttons and I have to go off and deal with my own issues first?

I think this is an ambitious book, I hope to find out from your own thoughts, for myself, as a reader, if he achieved that ambition or if, like what appears to be the majority of his characters so far, he does not.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 02, 2009, 08:20:43 AM

Straude-What pages comprise chapter 4? When I read this book last month I wrote page numbers beside my notes, but not chapter numbers.
I can see where this book would be hard to divide into a format. It really lends itself to reading and discussing it as a whole, doesn't it?
Ginny-I think the fact that Griffin is travelling with his father's ashes, his mother on the cell phone and his thoughts is symbolic of all the "baggage" he has been carrying around from some time. Some people just can't get beyond their past. I think Griffin's mother is totally self-absorbed and that she is determined to be the center of attention. She is a strong character that demands your attention.
These first few chapters set the tone of the book. I don't know if Russo meant it to be funny, but if so, then Russo must have a warped sense of humor.
Bella, I agree that this book is depressing. I didn't find it boring--just borish. For my pleasure reading (which is most of what I read), I prefer reading about people I can identify with. However, I do push myself to read some books that are not in my "comfort" range. This is one of those books. Some of the best discussions in my reading group have come from books that I did not particularly enjoy reading. So far, this looks good!
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 02, 2009, 09:04:57 AM

Okay, the Griffins are egoistic snobs, terrible parents, and thoroughly
unpleasant people. GINNY was asking what the Cape meant to them. I get the impression that it serves the purpose of a possibility for a happier future, which they really don't want to put to the test. So they keep hunting...and rejecting.
Appalled is my choice, TRAUDE. Even if the author was trying for humor, there is simply too much bitterness for the Griffins to be funny.

Joy's family is more normal, certainly a loving family, and their quirks more humorous. I confess to a wince at the 'Jane,June,Joy' name game. ) Okay,, they are a happy family, they enjoy one another’s company. I’d enjoy their company, too. But I definitely cringe at "Jilly-billy'!
Griffin is partially rejecting his parents and their values by keeping them
separated from Joy and Laura. He can't wholly escape them himself;
that would make him a bad son. I think he resents Joy's family partly because they are so much nicer than his own, partly because of the
snobbishness his parents implanted in him, and partly because Joy won't
cut them off the way he has done his parents. Unreasonable, as he
recognizes himself, but that doesn't change his feelings.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 02, 2009, 09:24:11 AM

I may be alone here, but I find Joy's family very "normal"...yep, even the kids names all beginning with the same letter. I've seen that happen a lot here in the midwest...even in families with 7 kids or so. [From my point of view, it's better than some of the names I see people hanging on their offspring these days ;) ] I think Jack is uncomfortable with them because they are the antithesis of what his own "three-some grouping"...I can't call the Griffins a "family" because that word entails love, nurturing and caring and there was none of that amongst the three of them that I can see at this point." I don't mind the Jilly-billy...I think it was an affectionate nickname that perhaps came from a childhood nickname.

I also don't see that this is intended to be funny...it's not a Chevy Chase thing to me...it's a sad commentary on a man at midlife who was raised with no love, support, bonding, encouragement, praise from those who should have given it. I wonder what sorts of families those two came from? I don't recall reading anything and see nothing in my notes. Jack, I think, is looking for a place to put the ashes that's comfortable...and for his "father" there was never such a place. How is Jack supposed to find it for him now?

I suspect they thought Cape Cod was 'Eden'/Shagra-La because it's all they knew. They were "EASTERNERS" from Cornell and Yale...and I wonder if they fit the stereotype of Easterners who think the world ends at the Hudson River...and everything beyond it is a black hole. [as in the MidF....West]. They would have come to know at Cornell and Yale that the rich and elite go to CC...and so that must be where happiness is. In reality, of course, neither has a clue what "happiness" is, apparently.

I wonder what they spent their $$ on? They never had enough, never saved a dime, apparently, and yet both were professors.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 02, 2009, 09:36:56 AM

Sally, just a brief answer to your question ... cleaning in progress here.

Chapter 4 covers pages 53-67, "The Summer of the Brownings." . The time when Griffin made friends with Peter and Peter's family one summer. The sadness there is inescapable.

Will get back to your wonderful posts as soon as I can.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 02, 2009, 10:32:53 AM

Quote

I also found my attention wandering when reading, I'm not sure why, it's an easy quick read. Maybe he is pushing some buttons and I have to go off and deal with my own issues first?

Ginny

This pretty well holds my attention, but now that I’m about half-way through the book I find I have to back off, go somewhere else – maybe to Iceland – for a while. Perhaps it because there is so much depression and negatavism.

Interesting points being made here about families, Gum’s especially, about trying or not trying to understand them. In mine there was only my brother and me, but a raft of aunts, uncles, cousins, and nothing was more fun than a family reunion – I still remember the pillowcase I made and everyone, even the uncles had to embroider on it. What would Jack have thought about that? Worse than board games? I was shocked when first engaged, to find that in my fiancee’s family there were aunts and uncles who did not get along, did not speak to one another. Perhaps I was unduly sheltered, but I had never heard of discord among my relatives.

Quote

I wonder what they spent their $$ on? They never had enough, never saved a dime, apparently, and yet both were professors.

Good question, Jane. I’ve been wondering how Jack paid for college, film school. Don’t tell me his parents had set up a savings account just for him!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Gumtree on November 02, 2009, 11:27:10 AM

I agree with Jane that siblings names beginning with the same letter are not unusual in the least. Twins very often bear very similar names - June & Judith - or James and John - the J is very catching isn't it. An uncle of mine named his four sons with the initials J.E which were also his own. He was a good businessman and I discovered that he did it to vex the Taxation Dept. What taxman could unravel which document related to which J.E. Needless to say, that uncle was not a blood relation :D

Was Mother's (I can't think of her as Mary) retirement speech [page 20] perhaps the moment when she finally faced and actually admitted the truth of her academic career not being what she and her husband had dreamed it ( and his too), might have been. After all they were bright enough - both scholarship winners.

I wish I could think of something nice to say about you people and this university, I really do. But the truth we dare not utter is that ours is a distinctly second-rate institution, as are the vast majority of our students, as are we

Her words appear to be an indictment of the state of university education in The F.... Midwest. I'm left wondering whether it is a fair assessment and whether Russo was making a serious point about mediocrity. Are the vast majority of students and their professors second rate?

The contempt in which Mother holds you people -her colleagues - students and more importantly, herself, is palpable. She is a disillusioned, disappointed and perhaps despairing woman.

Title: Re: That Old Cap, e Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: countrymm on November 02, 2009, 04:02:28 PM

I'm enjoying the book. I'm 65 and grew up in Massachusetts so I can relate to the Griffin family striving to get into the best schools, teach at the best colleges and retire to a beautiful place on Cape Cod.....accomplishments that perhaps validate that you tried hard and made the most of your abilities. It may seem shallow to many readers, but those were the goals inculcated in us at the time. I can remember longing for college acceptance, a fine first job, and a future of accomplishment. Does this help anyone out there?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 02, 2009, 04:20:51 PM

countryemm, welcome! So glad to see you again.

Yes, that's the way it was in old New Jersey too, and Pennsylvania. You aimed high. You in fact where going to be the next ambassador and make a difference.

So...are we saying that nobody in MA ever grew beyond that? IS there in fact life beyond that?

Have you ever known anybody as bitter as the mother here for less reason?

Such good points here, such good points you're all making.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 02, 2009, 04:26:23 PM

Oh dear I am laughing out loud at these posts. First off, I am one of those mothers who name their children with all the same letter, Julie, Joseph and Jeremy to go with my husband's first initial being J for Joe. We are a very close knit family with five grand children among the two sons and we celebrate with extended family for days on end. I am wore out just from a week of celebrating Halloween. I come from a very large Italian family with my grandmother having thirteen children, and then they all had children and there are six girls and one boy in my immediate family. When all of our husbands experienced our family get togethers they learned to go sit in the living room and watch sports while we all sat in the kitchen drinking coffee and cackling like a hen farm. My brother in law who was not at all close to his mother and father or two brothers always cracked jokes about us. He said we all talk at the same time and some how manage to hear everything everyone is saying and comment to everything said. lolol He said we were the typical Italian family with hands a flying and mouths that never quit.

My husband comes from a family of four girls and two boys, and his mother and father were not the loving, talkative type and so when we drove home from my families get togethers he and I talked the whole way home about everything from who cheated at cards to who ate the last piece of cake. lol When we drove home from his family gatherings which were few and far between, it was silent. We felt like there was nothing exciting to share. They were snobbish and condescending and his mother had a way of making him feel like he did not achieve enough in life, because he did not become a priest or an accountant, her dreams. So we made our family today all about fun and joy. The Brownings in chapter four is our family!

I had a friend who had a husband that was an only son and his mother was identical to Griffin's mother. It was revealed later his mother was inappropriate with him and he in turned repeated the behavior. My friend was devastated when she learned this too late. Griffin reminds me so much of my friend's husband who I cut out of my life many years ago. I still have contact with my friend since she divorced him.

I am not finding any humor weaved into this story whatsoever, not even sick humor. Nothing is funny about the way this family lived. The Cape for this family was to fulfill their societal hunger each year. It's like listening to Regis and Kelly talk about going to the Hampton's. All about feeling like they have achieved the status quo of what they feel to be important. For me its just plain old snobbishness and I don't care for these type of people at all.

Ginny..." Sometimes you have to entertain negative thoughts about a book and/ or read a book which s not all sunshine and flowers, sort of soldier thru, to find out what the author is saying, what point he's making here, and then to decide if it's worth it and he achieved it. "

I just don't care to muddle through the sadness, snobbery, depressing, and negativity to see if this author achieved what point he is making. I don't see Griffin as a typical middle age male. My husband is 60 yrs old and he loves life, wakes up every day and hugs and kisses me and says Good morning. Does he have bad days, sure but does he carry around a laden cross to the tune of whoa is me, no. If it weren't for the Browning family I would have given up on this book. I don't waste too much time with these type of books. I don't need sunshine and flowers to read, but I don't choose to take what precious little time I have in a day for the enjoyment of reading to set the book down and feel incredibly sad. So, in saying that, I will see if it gets any better. But like I mentioned with a death and divorce still to come.....it ain't looking good. Pardon my grammar.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 02, 2009, 04:47:03 PM

countrymm......With all due respect ....I think in most places throughout the country and world the same values you speak of are instilled in families, and many have achieved these goals in spite of living outside of the eastern snobbery that is taking place in this book. The people in the East do not have a monopoly on fine schools, vacation spots etc. Here in midwestern F--ing Ohio we aspire to the same hard work, best schools and success in life. Eliticism is everywhere, and its a group of people in society who for some reason feel they are entitled more so than others. The Griffins in my mind, have not achieved the successes in life that really matters, and that is why they are so miserable.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on November 02, 2009, 08:47:09 PM

Interesting posts. I am an only child. With two emotionally unavailable parents. I identify with Jack Griffin. I spent my childhood, alone and ignored. So, large families are an unknown quantity. I had four children myself. As I had always wanted to be part of a large family. My first husband had three siblings, but wanted no contact with them. That was a disappointment for me.

I am finding the book negative and depressing. But, I am hoping for inprovment in following chapters. I am also wondering what attracted Joy to Jack? I also wonder how he paid for college? Joy seems more normal, to me. I do not understand why Laura has always so feared that her parents would divorce. Lots of questions, and so far, not so many answers.

On to Chapter 4.
Sheila

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 02, 2009, 09:06:53 PM

We've had some eloquent reactions, and I hasten to respond.
All posts are welcome and will be acknowledged.
As I've said before, it would be unreasonable to expect everyone to like each and every book that is chosen here.

Nor should we feel compelled to participate if something makes us uncomfortable. As Jane has said, there's nothing wrong with laying a book aside, never to be looked at again. We have a perfect right to do so because life is short. If we find nothing palatable in a book, we might as well put it away.

We might have to make our peace with the fact that not every book entertains, or is designed to entertain. Not every book "grabs" us. There is no discernible plot in That Old Cape Magic. As I see it this is a (perhaps desperate) attempt by the narrator to find a way out of a crisis which may possibly be of his own making - or else inevitable because of his genetic makeup. These are the musings of an introvert and the echo of painful memories. Our approach may of necessity be one of analysis, rather than criticism.

When reading a book it has never occurred to me to take the characters or their actions and compare them to my own life. Why get all worked up, especially if there are significant dissimilarities?
And why, Bellamarie, would one refuse to visit the site described in a book, simply because a couple of characters (notably Griffin's parents) acts reprehensibly? Also, what is a man of substance, and why is Griffin not one?

Life was never a rose garden. More often than not it is predetermined by where and to whom we are born, where we are raised and educated. That also determines from what camp or profession we choose our friends. In this country we are proud of our egalitarian classless society, but is it? In England and continental Europe class is, and always has been, a distinct line of demarcation.

Gumtree, Russo himself has been a screen writer and a teacher. It is certainly possible that in this book he is trying to address our system of public versus private education. He also compares the life of a teacher with that of a screen writer. Sid and Tommy have some interesting things to say when he goes back East. Griffin maintains contact through the decades.

I agree with what has been said about families and how children influence the dynamics. It is obvious that Griffin, deprived of a loving home and caring parents, craved attention so much that he begrudged Joy the family visits. Was it jealousy? Just like his mother's, who kept tabs on the father long after they were divorced, continuing a virtual embrace that suffocated them both? !

I already said that I do not like and have never appreciated the use of four letter words in conversation It was simply not done. Yet there are untold numbers of people who do so every day with impunity, a former president among them. Years ago I asked Mal Freeman, then head of the online Writers Exchange Program,
"Do people really talk like this in their homes?"
"Yes, they do," she answered.

The banter between Griffin an Tommy strikes me as sophomoric and crude. The liberal sprinkling of the f-word in the text is annoying. Lastly, I'm not sure I subscribe to the wholesale condemnation of "Snobs in the East".

Re The Truro Accord
They wed in Truro on the Cape although Joy would have much preferred to get married at her family's vacation home in Maine. Griffin had prevailed.
Now, as Laura mentioned Truro on the phone he couldn't remember the recent connection. Then he recalled that Joy made the suggestion of taking a trip to Truro after the wedding to see the inn where they had honeymooned, if it was still there. They could spend a day or two, she'd said, it'd be romantic ...
Would they?

Is it too late?
Is the bond too frayed to be mended?

Almost forgot : Thank you, Countrymm, for your post. I know exactly what you mean. Good to see you.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 02, 2009, 09:27:15 PM

So far, I'm finding the book pretty funny as well as serious. It's full of little digs like "...once you'd packed a bag in front of a woman there was no possibility of unpacking, or of not going and taking the damn bag with you."

Griffin's mother's telephone demands are so awful they're amusing too. And her retirement speech, although pathetic and rude, is funny too.

What an awful family, though. It's a wonder Griffin managed to have any sort of normal marriage at all (though it seems to be rocky now) with the model he had before him. How could he know anything about loving relationships?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 02, 2009, 09:45:09 PM

Quote from: bellamarie on November 02, 2009, 04:47:03 PM

With all due respect ....I think in most places throughout the country and world the same values you speak of are instilled in families, and many have achieved these goals in spite of living outside of the eastern snobbery that is taking place in this book. The people in the East do not have a monopoly on fine schools, vacation spots etc. Here in midwestern F--ing Ohio we aspire to the same hard work, best schools and success in life. Eliticism is everywhere, and its a group of people in society who for some reason feel they are entitled more so than others. The Griffins in my mind, have not achieved the successes in life that really matters, and that is why they are so miserable.

Well said, Bellamarie. I know, this is fiction and these are obnoxious characters, but if you've ever been on the other end of that snobbery, the fiction still rankles a bit. Someone once suggested to me that it would be more proper for me to say "awnt" instead of "ant." I told him to go park his car. ;D

Quote

Her words appear to be an indictment of the state of university education in The F.... Midwest. I'm left wondering whether it is a fair assessment and whether Russo was making a serious point about mediocrity. Are the vast majority of students and their professors second rate?

Gumtree

Hopefully not, Gum. Is he in a position to make judgement on 70 to 80% of academia? I think his point is more about the attutudes of people/professors who are unhappy in their work, in life.

Quote

When reading a book it has never occurred to me to take the characters or their actions and compare them to my own life. Why get all worked up, especially if there are significant dissimilarities?

Traude

REally, Traude? Do you compare them to other peoples lives? To characters in other books? Thinking back to high school literature courses we were taught to look for universal truths. I would find it impossible not to compare fictional characters in one book to those in another or to people I know or to things in my own life. Years ago, going through a time of upheavel, friends were recommending this self-help book and that self-help, but I agreed more with the one who said, just read a good novel.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 02, 2009, 10:01:57 PM

I seldom see more than tiny bits of myself or my own family in books like this one, and that's the case here too, but Russo is doing a very good job of making me see these people. I've got more to say, but I'm getting sleepy, so I think I'll go read chapter 4 in bed.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 02, 2009, 10:09:50 PM

Sheila,
Thank you for posting.
This is not a happy book. But it is, I believe, a faithful presentation of what can happen in life. There always is cause and effect, consequences of actions, culpability assigned or denied. Rarely are we given second chances. And even if we are so lucky, how many last? Why then aren't we more caring longer into a marriage?

Interestingly enough, at the reading in Sandwich on August 15 the author read only from Part I. Only when I began reading the book did I discover the sadness.
Is this perhaps a cautionary tale, I wonder ?

The author was asked during the interview in Boston in October whether the book is autobiographical. He answered (merely) that he is an only child; his wife has siblings.
She was with him in Sandwich on August 15 at the supper al fresco in back of the book store that arranged for their visit, and later at the reading to a much larger audience. He lives in Maine, he told us.

His Bridge of Sighs is set partly in Venice and it would have been interesting to know about Russo's own heritage. He did not bring it up, and it would have been too personal a question to ask.

In onne of the flashbacks we read that everybody was in love with Joy who was "beautiful and genuine, something rare in LA, and she had chosen him". We know Griffin had at least one summer job when he as in HS. That's where he learned about "half plumb". He may have had other jobs and saved the wages. Perhaps he worked while he attended film school. And Joy had a job.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 03, 2009, 07:47:08 AM

Oh my, oh my--such interesting comments from all of you! I am filled with "manic loquaciousness" (a phrase I borrowed from a book I recently read). My mind is swirling with thoughts and responses to all of your observations.

1. Straude, I think we given 2nd chances all the time. We simply don't see them or chose not to take them. We are not given a complete "do-over", but we are given a chance to respond differently.
2. Many colleges give special scholarships to children of professors. Maybe that is how Griffin attended.
3. Snobishness is not regional. I grew up in a small town in Texas. There was definitely a right and wrong side of the tracks (literally, since a train ran through our town) and figuratively. People on the "wrong" side were looked down on and expected to behave badly frequently bringing about a self fulfilling prophecy. There were those, however, who brought themselves out of it in spite of the circumstances. Which brings me to the next thought.
4. I think a man of substance is one who can rise above his circumstances and quit blaming someone else for his problems.
5. After reading this book, I thought back to other books Russo has written. They all feature disfunctional families-which makes me think that his writings may be somewhat autobiographical. I read somewhere that a good writer writes about what he knows.

After reading this book, I am going to take a long break from Russo. Too, depressing and tiring!

Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 03, 2009, 08:36:41 AM

That Old Cape Magic
by
Richard Russo

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/sagbridge.jpg)

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/oldcapecvrsm.jpg)

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/mapcapecodsm.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/map.capecod.jpg)

Questions for Chapters 1 - 3

Discussion Leader: Traude (xx)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 03, 2009, 08:38:55 AM

What interesting posts here and points of view.

I had been on SeniorNet about 11 years before, I think it was during the Edith Whaton discussion, I learned that in the mid west there IS some resentment about the snobbishness of the East. I had never heard of it, but I'm from the East Coast. This book really slams it, over and over, doesn't it?

But I think Salan is right and snobbishness has no geographical divide.

Traude asks if we are in the US, a classless society? I think we're a money made society. Anybody who reads the Astor book: Regrets, Mrs. Astor, learns who the Astor 100 were and how they got there.

Speaking of being an ambassador, the book also reveals that Richard Nixon set the price of an ambassadorship at $250,000. That seems clear. The old robber barons because of their money formed the upper crust in this country ...before taxes.

Alas Jack Griffin and his wife (like Jane I can barely think of her as Mary or human) are way out of that and how did they expect to be there in the first place on a substantial yet middle class professor's salary? I keep coming back to what they seek, Traude thought maybe happiness, I am wondering why they thought it would come from a prestigious appointment to a NE university? Why the NE? Countrymm has explained about the prestigious East Coast universities, but there are others. Reminds me of Frost and "he will not go beyond his fathers saying..." The characters are stuck. Can they break out? Apparently not in his parents' case, too late for dad. Not too late for mom, is she tryiing? or not?

I like this quote:

4. I think a man of substance is one who can rise above his circumstances and quit blaming someone else for his problems.

So who is of substance here, really? I can't figure out who the mother blames for her problems, but it's clear her problems seem to ruin everybody's lives.

All these characters seem to lack the ability to make something bright, or right, tho they keep tryiing in strange ways, the parents with the Cape, Jack with his childhood friendship and then his screen writing (what's so bad about that?), Joy despite her name puts a damper on his efforts to be bright, he's a Man of Constant Sorrows, but he wants....at least to me, when this opens....out.

I think the reader keeps reading to find out if he does. He's having his own Mid Life Crisis. Or is he?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 03, 2009, 08:52:44 AM

I think it was just the single syllable names, (Jane,June,Joy) that
bothered me. It made them sound like clones, for some reason. I would not have been bothered by a Judith, Joy, Jenny for example. It must be a personal quirk.
Thanks for that insight into a Massachusetts bred family, COUNTRYMM.
That helps considerably. I can understand the Griffins a bit better now.

I, too, was one of two children with a large, congenial extended family
who really enjoyed getting together. Which of course makes the Griffin
mater and pater all the more horrendous to me.

Quote

Just like his mother's, who kept tabs on the father long after they were divorced, continuing a virtual embrace that suffocated them both?

Traude
That reminds me of this ref. to Jack’s mother …”But there wasn’t a damn thing she could do about it, which she determined, according to Griffin’s father, by trying really, really hard.” I did find that line funny, just like the episode of the packed suitcase.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 03, 2009, 08:54:26 AM

As far as the depressing aspect of the book, I think, just like in the Rabbit books, Russo here is writing about Everyman Turning 60 in 2009. It may not be the Everyman we know, but nobody can deny they are out there, like Rabbit Angstrom, THE single most depressing book I ever read. Rabbitt and its successor both won Pulitzers,so somebody else out there recognizes the disaffected man, in Rabbit's case, much younger.

Our hero here and his family embody Updikes: "The heart prefers to move against the grain of circumstance; perversity is the soul's very life." (from Assorted Prose, 1965)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 03, 2009, 12:08:26 PM

straudetwo

Quote

...."When reading a book it has never occurred to me to take the characters or their actions and compare them to my own life. Why get all worked up, especially if there are significant dissimilarities?
And why, Bellamarie, would one refuse to visit the site described in a book, simply because a couple of characters (notably Griffin's parents) acts reprehensibly?

You may have misunderstood me when I said I pause in visiting the Cape if it is as this book and others have stated to be a snobbish place of the rich and elite. I have always longed to go to the Cape with anticipation of it being a beautiful place where people are friendly and welcoming. The Brownings in Ch. 4 sure are the type of people I would like to encounter when visiting any place. Warm, friendly and inviting. I can't imagine anyone reading a book and not finding themselves somewhat identifying with one of the characters or knowing someone that comes close to the characteristics of a character. I am a wrtier and I take life experiences from not only my own personal life, but others I have known and yes even from books and movies I have found to be interesting when creating a story. I am sensing by hearing from those who have previously read Russo, he may like wise be drawing from what he knows best, his own personal life experiences.

pedln...Yes, when you are on the other end it does rankle...... I LOVE it, "Go park your car." lol

Straudetwo....I too detest the "F" word. My sisters use profanity in their everyday speaking and it has and always will seem unnecesary.

I have more questions as to the actions of these characters. If Joy's life was normal and happy, why does she seem to give in to Grifin's choices? Your honeymoon is such a special time of your beginning of married life, how could she agree wiith Truro when she clearly would have liked someplace else? Ok, on to the next chapters with hope of lighter less depressing reading. :(

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 03, 2009, 02:01:38 PM

Quote

Your honeymoon is such a special time of your beginning of married life, how could she agree wiith Truro when she clearly would have liked someplace else?

If they each wanted to go to a different spot, then one of them is going to have to give in. Joy did. Jack has admitted he's persuasive with language and as a young wife, Joy may have been susceptible to that.

I, too, identify with a book or characters when I have something to relate the characters or plot to. It is, I believe, one of the reasons I don't like fantasy or science fiction. I can't relate to those "environments/characters" and so they have no appeal to me.

I also think we all tend to behave/relate, at least in the early years of our lives, based up how we were raised, our own backgrounds, the people we've known as we grew up, the situations we've faced. As our experiences grow, we grow in attitude and outlook. Jack, to me, was raised in what I find such a bizarre world that it's a wonder he is, to me, as "normal" as he appears to be. Until he met Joy, he appears to have been emotionally deprived.

The Brownings appear to be the only "normal" family Jack ever encountered. Apparently the yearly moves his parents made, their absolute total egocentric personalities must have meant he had no friendships/pals when he was growing up in Indiana and what a sad life for a child to endure.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 03, 2009, 03:24:14 PM

The decision to spend the honeymoon at Truro is important. It was the couple's first power struggle. Maine was powerfully symbolic to Joy, and Truro Was powerfully symbolic to Griffin. He gets his way, then thinks he's made a mistake, symbolically opting for his parents' dysfunction rather than Joy's loving family style.

Griffin seems to be good at getting his way then regretting it.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 03, 2009, 03:35:30 PM

Someone asked if the Cape was a character in the book. I'd say definitely yes, though I'm not sure yet whether good or evil. I've read other books in which places are characters of sorts; Daphne du Maurier's "Rebecca" and E. M. Forster's "Howard's End" come to mind. In "Howard's End", I came to the conclusion that the house was the strongest character in the book.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 03, 2009, 05:08:21 PM

PatH..I so agree with you that a place or thing in stories can be a character as well as a person. As far as the decision to honeymoon in Truro rather than Maine being a power struggle, I am not sure I got the feeling there was much struggle in the decision. It appears so far to me, that Joy seems to go along even though it's not what she wants. Like the fact Griffin drives to the Cape by himself, rather she ask he wait for her to go together, then later she makes the point of how silly it was they drove separately. Griffin is spoiled and wants his own way, just like his parents, regardless if in getting what he wants ends up making him unhappy. Guess its like the saying, "Be careful what you wish for."

He seems so unemotional, and unattached to his so called friend, parents, wife and daughter. And why would the daughter anticipate hearing they would divorce all through her childhood? I've always felt that unhappy people, never are glad when they see others happy. I feel Griffin is egocentric, the same as his parents. They loathed children...well, I loathed people like them.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 03, 2009, 09:38:51 PM

"The first struggle", exactly, PatH. Surely there were other occasions where Griffin insisted,
or finagled, and won. Yes, that first struggle is iportant; it was the opening salvo!
In the flashbacks we are given hints, we can read between the lines, for example when Griffin questioned why they would have to spend all holidays with Joy's parents. We can ihear him grumbling. Did he want all of Joy's attention for himself ? Was he envious that she had such a good relationship with the parents and siblings? He admitted to being petulant on the very first page of the story, and from what he shows us we can infer a great deal more. I believe he was "queribundus", a complainer, like his mother. ;D

The first years seem to have been happy. Not all assignments were lucrative, but they made a good living, though not enough to afford to buy a house in LA. They didn't save toward any such goal.
They enjoyed their busy social life. They moved frequently -, to be closer to the ocean or closer to work, or for more amenities. They popped iover to Mexico when they felt like it. All in all, as Griffin realized eventually, it was the same nomadic existence his parents had led.

They were childless and pushing thirty. What Joy wanted was a house, a home, a nest; all nurturing women's first instinct. Griffin had promised that she would have her "dream house" (= the great Truro accord"), that he would eventually begin "real" writing, and be the writer she and he thought he could be. Promises, promises ...

During a writers' strike Griffin did compose a novella of sorts, which became Chapter 4 in this book, "but it just wasn't very good". Nothing changed, except that they had Laura, and they loved her. Raised in the heady atmosphere of the film world, Laura was a sensitive child who worried that they might divorce, like the parents of several classmates of hers had. After every disagreement, Joy and Griffin had to reassure Laura anew that all was well, they loved each other, they were a family.

So why then, some twenty years later, is Griffin driving from Boston to the Cape alone?
He has been teaching film writing in Connecticut. The semester is over. Why isn't Joy with him?

Because Joy has been working in the dean's office at the same university, and one more meeting to attend. (Interesting, isn't it? Could this have been a sort of emancipation? She who did not go to graduate school but had always worked cheerfully?)
Grumpy Griffin was already annoyed that Kelsey's wedding on Cape Cod had "royally screwed up" his plans to spend some vacation time in New York. He was further unhappy about having to wait an extra day for Joy to join him. It did not escape her notice.

So she suggested that he drive on to Boston alone and spend a "boys' night" there; she'd follow the next day in her car. He said he would. Remembering this now on his drive to the Cape he thought he might have changed his ind if Joy had asked him to reconsider and wait for her there. She made no such effort.

Why was he offended? Wasn't he the clod?

Yes, this book is easy to read on the face of it, but flashbacks and contemporary reporting do mesh and sometimes overlap so that a detail here or there does not fully register. And then I need to recheck thr sequence of events.

Ginny, I too have a problem thinking of this hypercritical monster as "Mary". (All names are deliberately chosen, I think.) She inflicted much greater harm on the son than the father did (weak, ineffectual, vain, impractical and unobservant). Jack's temperament is more like this mother's than his father. But how has his father's death on the Massachusetts Turnpike really affected the son? That when his insomnia began. Whyhas Griffin been carrying his father's ashes around in his car for alost a year?

What did the mother want? My guess is: attention, academic renown, admiration. I don't think she was searching for happiness, but she may have associated a version of happiness or contentedness with the annual visits to Cape Cod. An ambitious plan, no permanence. Perhaps they didn't try hard enough Whatever it is she wanted, she went about it the wrong way, I believe. A tiny bit of humility would have done wonders.

The ultimate irony has got to be the title of the book That Old Cape Magic, and her mocking change of the one word in the popular song. There was no magic for them on the Cape. There are no fairies. They never understood. Each trip began with high hopes and boisterous singing. On the trip back, thee was silence and the feeling of dejection.

I love to look at real estate guides (and building plans too). Local editions are a little thin hese day. What is absurd IMHO is the couple's obsession: the contrivances they go through to make sure that one doesn't get to read it before the other does. How infantile! This was more like an ongoing competition between combatants for the upper hand than like a marriage.

When we relate to a book and to characters, of course we make connections. So much the better. I personally am more interested in analyzing this book but find little to compare with my own life, which has been very different.
Now I'm anxious to carefully explore whether and how the son is going to extricate himself from the mess his life has become. After all, there is always hope.
Your participation and comments are greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on November 04, 2009, 08:56:28 AM

When parents are emotionally uinavailable, if there are loving, caring relatives, or others, in a child's life, it helps. In my case, I spent a lot of time with my maternal grandparents. They literally saved me, emotionally. In reading Chapter 4, I think that is what the Browning family did for Jack. I found myself wishing that they would take him home with them.

I also understand how only children, often cannot understand family dynamics, when with large families. I never experienced family banter. Even with my own four childten.

I felt increased sadness when Jack begged his parents to put down deposits, for the following summer, and they refused. How sad, that they were not willing to do that for their only child. Jack found something with Peter, that he had never before experienced. Closeness and understanding. Someone who really listened to him. What gifts, in two, short weeks.

Then, when his parents refused the last night's invitation ftom the Btownings, more hurt. How hurtful it must have been to then, havie his parents change their plans for their last night, from a good restaurant, to one that none of them enjoyed.

Sad. too, that Jack knew his parents would refuse the Browning's invitation. Even though he was seldom included in his parent's plans, he lied that his family had reservations at a fancy restaurant. Then, even that didn't happen for him.

Sheila

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 04, 2009, 09:16:25 AM

Quote

'Griffin seems to be good at getting his way then regretting it.'

Oh, PAT, that is an excellent observation. Now that you state it, I
can see it so plainly.

I remember having a discussion about a locale as a 'character' back on
SeniorNet. I still don't see it, myself. To me a character is
quintessentially a person/personality. I will include animals in that
latter category, but not a landscape! A place can hold memories and
arouse feelings, but it's not a personality.

Quote

"Why was he offended? Wasn't he the clod?"

Oh, absolutely, TRAUDE. And aren't we human beings adept at shifting the blame to ease our own consciences?

What it must be like to be the child of a couple who do not like kids and find their own a serious inconvenience, to be kept out of the way as much as possible. Their childcare is described in Jack’s attempt to write to write “The Summer of the Brownings”. We meet Jack’s friend Tommy, who reads the story and refers to the fictional couple as “those asshole parents”. I can't remember...how did Griffin react to
that assessment. Did he react at all?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Gumtree on November 04, 2009, 10:01:02 AM

Jane: I knew you were a girl after my own heart - I don't care for fantasy or sci-fi either. I don't need to relate to the characters in a novel and really prefer to read books in which the characterisations are totally unfamiliar to me and situations which are totally outside my own experience. Such reading has broadened my outlook enormously over many years. But having said that, I always think that the fantasy and sci-fi writers who have something to say could just as readily say it without inventing scenarios that stretch too far beyond any kind of reality.

PatH Your comment about Howard's End being the strongest character in the book is absolutely spot-on. I thought it was brilliant of Forster to so name the book. And yes, places can be all pervading in a novel - either drawing characters in or repelling them as the case may be, influencing the events, showing many moods just as people do - a place can be as palpable as a person. In this novel though, I think Cape Cod is an idea, perhaps the impossible dream both for Griffin and for his parents. It promises so much but apparently never delivers.

Bellamarie I agree that on the surface Joy goes along with Griffin - as in the honeymoon destination - but I really think, at least to some extent, she is the one in the driving seat. I think Joy is the one who wants to settle down and have the children -well, Laura anyway. She's able to get Griffin to convince himself that he'd be better off working in academe rather than continuing in the movie writing business in LA. I can't work out just why they (and Griffin's parents too), are unable to save for their future home - especially as Jack seems to be making plenty of money with Tommy and the scripts. What holds them back from some basic financial planning?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 04, 2009, 04:21:01 PM

Having just returned this afternoon from a 3 day trip with friends, I can not possibly comment on each one of your posts but allow me to say that I have enjoyed reading them much more so than the reading of this oppresive novel.

How can Russo write of so many abrasive, hurtful people in these first few chapters?
I do not even know where to begin. I keep shaking my head and saying "you've got to be kidding!"
I cannot tolerate those parents. Sorry, but Jane is right, they do not even deserve that title giving absolutely no devotion, fondness or supportive role to their son.
No wonder the guy is a clod. Who could ever survive that churning, festering hostility and remain a "nice guy?"
Yes, Ginny, that is definetly passive-aggressive behavior in its highest form.
These people are a walking advertisement for celibacy or even birth control.
History repeats itself and even our protaganist is aware that he cannot entirely escape his genetic makeup. I am hoping that as he begins to realize how much like his parents he truly is, he will take pause and perhaps alter his noxious behavior.

Quote

Why has he carried his father's urn in the trunk of his car for nearly a year ? There's something macabre about this, I believe, and unfunny.

So far I have not experienced anything funny- funny, comical or humorous NO.
Funny as in odd and peculiar I will agree there is plenty of that.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 04, 2009, 04:31:13 PM

I believe he is not ready to let his father "go." He has unresolved isssues and knows that somehow his father is part of the answers he's looking for.
He remains as grim and haggard now as his father was in life. He's had insomnia since first hearing of his father's death. Why has this stressed him out so much?

They are all so insipid and vapid, aren't they?

I shall return. I love it that we have so many varied opinions here. I'd like to muster up some sympathy for him but find his ordeal at camp the only thing that I can respond to with sensitivity.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 04, 2009, 08:46:14 PM

Sheila,
the term "emotionally unavailable" is perfect in all it encompasses.
Clearly, Jack hasn't come to terms with certain bitter memories - or else we wouldn't have these revelations. I know such memories linger.

I've told my son and daughter that I would always be willing to listen to anything they wanted or needed to talk about. The willingness is quintessential.

Let's look at the chapter about the summer with the Brownings. After an initial uncertainty, Jack's parents allowed Jack to go to the beach early in the morning. They wanted to linger over breakfast and were in no hurry to go to the beach. They were relieved to send him off, keeping strictly to themselves reading books they wouldn't admit to their colleagues they'd ever heard off. Hahaha

What exactly happened on the Griffins' last day?See pages 60-61.

The Brownings had invited him for supper. He wanted desperately to accept the invitation. What made Jack tell Peter instead that "he and his parents were going out for a fancy dinner at the Blue Martini?
It was very expensive, he said, but his parents had promised him he could order whatever he wanted, no matter the cost, so he'd have to say no to the hamburgers. The look of disappointment on his friend's face provided a kind of bitter satisfaction."
It was also a lie.

Jack's parents were surprised and annoyed when he told them. They had planned to go out, but only the two of them. "Why?" asked his mother. "Why must you be like this?" That's when his mother repeatedly referred to "Steven" and Jack shouted "His name is Peter!"

His father canceled the reservation at the Blue Martini. They went to a family seafood place where they ate at a weathered picnic table, their dinners served on paper boats.

"I loathe friend seafood", his mother said, pushing her scallops away.
"This is not what I had in mind either," his father said.

"We could have gone to the Blue Martini anyway," his mother said.
"Yeah, but what would be the point?"

Why did Jack inflict this hurt on himself?

Babi, yes, Jack acts like an ill-tempered, dithering, unsympathetic malcontent and, oh so self-righteous! Every word has the sharpness of a razor.

Alf, the parents are despicable, unbelievable, I think we all agree. And how can be possibly try to like the son?

** Isn't it curious that he tells his story in the third person using his last name?
** Call me suspicious, but let's not forget that he is the narrator. We see the characters as he describes and quotes them to us.
** Can we rely on him?
Are Joy's parents as dull and one-dimensional as he makes them seem?

** Is this story too easy and perhaps deceptively simple? Is there more yet to be revealed?
** Some of you don't seem to care for the character of Joy.

Hasn't she been an anchor for him all these years?
She planned and supervised the restoration of their dream house in Connecticut; she dealt with the contractors when they redecorated one room at a time. That would reqire a more steely determination than in Griffin has shown so far, wouldn't you say?

The more I reread the more convinced I am that large swatches of this story are autobiographical. But never mind that. True, the story and the subject matter is perhaps unknown territory for us, but I believe there are families like this, living side by side for years, just going through the motions, but miles apart emotionally, at cross purposes, as it were. Yes, there is a great deal of sadness in this book.
But in my own circle of friends and acquaintances there have been unanticipated estrangements and separations - so that sadness has touched me.

Alf, some scenes are comic and it's easy to see that they could be translated to the big screen word for word!! Which reminds me: I've heard talk of a movie of tis story, and Susan Sarandon's name has been mentioned. I kid ou not.
Will try and check it out.

More comments tomorrow.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 05, 2009, 07:47:43 AM

I was raised with an emotionally detached mother and this story annoyed me. As an adult, I came to understand my mother's underlying problem but as a kid--- well that little girl in me still peeks out when I relive some of those days.

Traude- you're right- I did see humor scattered throughout. After all the author took note of my life re. America's skewed values.
::)
1. "whereby critical-care nurses were paid less than suprmarket butchers." ;D
Oh yes, I've presented that argument numerous times.

2. Griffen discusses his students and says "their politics were mostly liberal, like their parents."

3. Jane and June (Joy's sisters) lived nearby and visited their parents frequently, on purpose, if you could imagine that- and their children.
Now, THAT is funny. He just doesn't get it, the poor guy. Let's view him as a victim and perhaps we can see past his foibles.

The Summer of the Brownings is heart wrenching. Here is this little boy who literally falls in love with the family he will never call his own. Does his love at age 12 for the kind Mrs. Browning perhaps have an Oedipel reference? He certainly will never harbor those feelings for his own "mother."

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 05, 2009, 08:47:26 AM

Quote

** Call me suspicious, but let's not forget that he is the narrator. We see the characters as he describes and quotes them to us".

I'm glad you made that point, TRAUDE. In Ch. 7, Mother Griffin gives
her version of the summer of the Brownings and it is quite different from Jacks. Is she remembering to suit herself, or is it Jack’s memory that is faulty? Has he developed a mindset toward his parents that does not permit him to remember anything good about them?
Everything he says may be filtered, but it's surely not outright lies.
For example, his mother was a tough teacher. That can be good; I found that tough teachers usually were the best teachers. However, she compares the notes (few) sent by her ex-students to the “moronic screeds (often beginning, “Yo, Prof Griff”) his father's former athletes sometimes sent him”
From that and other examples, her designation as a “bitch on wheels” seems to be accurate enough.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 05, 2009, 08:54:18 AM

What exactly is a screed?
I had marked it but I could not find it in my Miriam Webster.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 05, 2009, 09:50:34 AM

Thank you for your great answers. I'll get to them in detal the afternoon. Am about to run out to another appointment. It's "maintenance/overhaul" time at the dentist, the eye doctor, the dermatologist, etc. etc.

So only very quickly, Alf, a screed is either a long speech or a poorly focused piece of writing.
The addition of "moronic" is a further indication that the students' work was below par.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 05, 2009, 11:33:58 AM

Thank you Traude for answering that question. hmmmm- I love new words. A SCREED is
either a long speech or a poorly focused piece of writing. Well perhaps the student's work was below THEIR idea of what "par" constitutes in a piece of writing.

Imagine- being so careless with a student's paper that you could LOSE it and run about a neighborhood in order to retrieve it.

I do love this: Some stories, even ones buried deep in memory and subconscious, had a way of burrowing up into the light, of demanding conscious attention, until you had little choice but to write them.

In his story, while taking long walks on the beach with his friend, "he strayed so far their parents became tiny specks among the dunes before disappearing altogether, leaving them alone and content in the world...."
That is so very sad to me that this kid just wanted to vanish, cease to exist in his own family.
I hope to hell this isn't autobiographical or this guy Russo will be in therapy for the rest of his life. Who knows, maybe this writing could help purge his soul.

So sad. Hey! What's the deal with the Browning's daughter? The girl whose name Griffen could not remember- only that there was something "not right" about her? Will we ever find out? if not, why is the mention of her even pertinent in the story?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 05, 2009, 11:46:04 AM

Another funny bit, at the end of Griffin's apology to Joy over going down in separate cars:

"I hope you aren't waiting for me to humble myself further, because that's all I've got for you."
"No", she said. "That should do it."

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 05, 2009, 07:14:08 PM

I've read ahead, so am somewhat hesitant about posting, for fear of spilling the beans. This afternoon my f2f group met to discuss Virgin of Small Plains by Nancy Pickard. There were many comments about the bad parenting in that book, so of course, I had to tell them they had seen nothing, yet.

The Browning chapter, so sad. The Griffins were so blatently rude, making a point of not noticing the family on the beach, going off in the other direction without saying boo. Poor Jack, how humiliating for him.

Quote

What made Jack tell Peter instead that "he and his parents were going out for a fancy dinner at the Blue Martini?

Traude.

This poor kid (and I'm looking at him as a victim, Andy) has finally found some way to control his destiny or whatever. He's never been able to do that. But now he can muck up his parents' plans, and at the same time have an effect on his new best friend -- he disappoints him. Not that he really wants to, but it's the only way he can have a little power.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 06, 2009, 06:54:32 AM

I think the story would have been much different if told from Joy's point of view or even from the way his mother remembered it. Recently, I have been writing some memoirs and after talking to 2 of my sisters I realized that we looked at certain incidents in an entirely different way. It really made me stop and think. How true are our memories? The same tale told from different points of view---sounds like it might make an interesting book........
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 06, 2009, 08:02:15 AM

I agree, and that brings up the question who do you trust in this thing and Traude's reliable narrator question, quite a difference when "mom" chimes in, but what really happened?

This is a very effective technique of the author's, letting different points of view creep in, just enough to make us wonder, wait here...wait.

Poignant childhood memories of the Brownings, and the last night, are they also true?

Russo here has done a great job with the only child who has nobody to bounce off of but his two disaffected, self centered, and, in the case of the mother, extremely critical parent examples. I don't think we should be too hard on Jack here, because in real life the same result happens more than we'd like to think. Russo just has Jack reveal his feelings when another would not, in "real life," an only child in this situation would probably stifle and the result of this "parenting" which is a lot more common than you'd think, comes out in other ways.

Funny how he ended up emulating their choice of profession. But he may want out.

Consider Tony Marshall (son of Brooke Astor) and his totally dysfunctional saga and end.

Jack seems to keep going, to me. He is TRYING to do something, he's paying out of his own pocket for his mother's continuing care, and he takes her calls.

They recommend, or so I've been told, in the case of distant or abusive parents, that the grown child address them, even if it has to be in the cemetery, and get out all the past hurts, clear the air so to speak.

Griffin is carrying around his father in the trunk, and his mother on the cell phone. He could dump the ashes in the landfill but he doesn't, as Andrea said, what's the deal here? He could stop taking mom's calls, he certainly doesn't have to help her financially, does she appreciate it?

Does she make a demarcation between her you remember what a book is and her personal relationship with him? How does she see those comments? For his own good? Hers? Her life must be a hell in that place she lives since she's better than anybody there. I guess she's the "professor," working on her book, she's not dead yet, and the other people....where IS she? Where has she settled for good?

I need to go reread that, and possibly a lot more, as a lot of it, since I took no notes, is blurring, but the one thing standing out for me is his burdened life.

We all seem to see Joy (do we?) as functional, yet she seems to me for all her big loving family background to be less understanding of his own needs, than she might be: what IS so bad about screenwriting? What's the issue there? That he shuts her out?

What's her attitude toward MOM?

Where are we now in the book? I don't want to go too far like Pedln but am not sure what chapter we can go up to? Have we moved beyond the Brownings? I can't give this segment any purchase, it's one summer for how many weeks? This should not and would not be a major event for most people, why is he and why are we dwelling on it? Because it's there? Why IS it there?

It's almost like Jack is presenting his evidence for the trial of his parents to US, the reader, wanting to be heard, at last.

Yes it's sad, yes it was an unpleasant incident, so?

This is the last time I discuss a book with no notes and I'll make some this weekend, where are we up to?

Like his parents, like we've said about our teen ambitions in the North East, he needs to grow up. I think that's what this is about. And when he does grow up emotionally, the issue is where will he stand? And with whom?

Why is he going to the wedding of his daughter's friend, by the way? Would you, with all he's got going on? This is incongruous, to me.

As to why he could not wait for Joy, I see that as the beginning crack in his breaking out of the chrysalis stage (I probably have that backwards), he's going to emerge from the shell (to mix metaphors) into who he is. Will we like him?

Will Joy?

Will his mother?

Will anybody?

Will he care?

Freedom at last, will he like it?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 06, 2009, 08:43:03 AM

Quote

"Recently, I have been writing some memoirs and after talking to 2 of my sisters I realized that we looked at certain incidents in an entirely different way."

SALLY, that is so true. There are incidents I thought were stressful for
my kids, that they hardly remember or took in stride. And vice versa. It's not that anyone's memory is necessarily faulty, it's just the way they perceived it. No wonder eye-witness information can be so flawed.
Mom is now living in an assisted-living facility, which “were ‘table seventeens’ for the elderly, where virtual strangers were thrust into proximity by neither affection nor blood nor common interest, only by circumstance: age and declining health”. A grim picture, especially for a person who has always regarded most others as ’those people’, with whom one does not associate by choice.
Even worse, IMO, is a nursing home where even one’s room must be shared with a stranger and one’s living space consists of a bed, a bedside table, perhaps a chair, and half a small room. I think there must be few who would actually be content, much less happy, in such a situation. 'Mom' does not know how fortunate she is, but then she never did. People do not change as they grow old, they simply become 'more so'.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 06, 2009, 01:14:09 PM

Oh my, I miss a day or so and look at all the posts! I don't have the time to go over each of them now, but I promise I will.

I have to say I was so darn fed up with this book I decided to take yesterday and finish it. I figured it can't get any worse and I certainly was not even hoping or expecting a fairytale ending to this mess. I won't spoil the ending for those who have not finished the book, but I will say this.....Richard Russo is not an author I would ever choose to read again. From the prior posts, from those who have read his other books, and from my own conclusion, Russo sounds like he could use anti depressants before, during and after he decides to write. lol I sure felt like I could use a Zoloft after reading the first few chapters of this book.

He was just way too far out there in so many areas I just kept wanting to put the book down or throw it across the room. I have never read a more frustrating book in my life! I felt he went to extremes that made me go HUH???....I just refuse to beleive this.

I am the second to the youngest of seven children in my family and when my Mom died we all got together going through her personal things and was sharing memories, and then we had the project of remodeling a house in the estate which we lived in for a short time in our childhood in order to sell it and settle the estate. Oh the different stories and memories we all had were astounding. Each and every one of us had different takes on things that happened. Evey person's memory is their own personal experience. If it made you happy, you see it in a different light, then if it made a sister or brother unhappy. Griffin not having any siblings gives a one sided view of everything. It would have been nice to have had the input from others, such as his Mom, Dad, Peter, Joy, Laura, etc. as we read each of Griffin's memories. As a child there are monsters under your bed, your parents are MEAN as my 4 and 7 yr old grand daughters say daily about their Mom and Dad when they don't get their own way, and Santa really does ride in a sleigh drawn by reindeer to bring their toys on Christmas Eve. So, how much is real or over dramatized since Griffin is the only source to draw from?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 06, 2009, 01:30:35 PM

Quote

What made Jack tell Peter instead that "he and his parents were going out for a fancy dinner at the Blue Martini?

Traude.

pedln..This poor kid (and I'm looking at him as a victim, Andy) has finally found some way to control his destiny or whatever. He's never been able to do that. But now he can muck up his parents' plans, and at the same time have an effect on his new best friend -- he disappoints him. Not that he really wants to, but it's the only way he can have a little power.

Hmmm...this is an interesting take on Griffin's thoughts and actions. I didn't see him as a victim in this scene. He single handedly decided to mess up everyone's plans and enjoyed every minute of it. I saw this as a very selfish act, just like many children act out in this way, when they just decide they want the control and attention. Just like when he decided to leave and travel by himself instead of wait for Joy to go with him. He is so full of himself, he denies himself and others of the happiness it would bring them. Russo is showing us that Griffin as much as he wants people and happiness in his life, sabotages it and causes himself and others pain and misery. Chasing the elusive dream generally leaves you feeling empty, lost, lonely and hurt. It's kind of like the saying, "It's right in front of your face, you just need to reach out and take it." He had this wonderful family who genuinely liked him, a first best buddy, and decides to lie and hurt them for no apparent reason, other than having the satisfaction of knowing he could. The same behavior he displayed with Joy. Griffin is very immature, and needs to grow up. As a child I can understand it, as an adult, its not acceptable.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 06, 2009, 03:09:43 PM

Bellemarie

Quote

I saw this as a very selfish act, just like many children act out in this way, when they just decide they want the control and attention.

Exactly! He is just a child. He is a child of abusive parents who until he met up with the Brownings had absolutely no sense of what we know as "family." He's a kid who for the first time in his life became alive with comraderie, friendship and a feeling of "belonging."
I didn't see it so much as a kid wanting to take control but more so of a kid who falsified his own existance.
I am certain that he was saying to himself, "My mother is a bitch, my father a lazy, inept, sorry example for a boy to act in accordance with and I will never know the kindness that the Browning family has shown me, ever again."
You bet he acted out and I don't blame him one iota.

It was as if for the first time he viewed his young life, conceded and counted himself out, fully realizing that he was stuck with these vile people that called themselves his parents.
I feel awful for this kid.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 06, 2009, 04:07:37 PM

Alf, I totally agree with you, I feel awful for the way Griffin's parents treated him. They are deplorable people, IF we are to believe his memories are true. But....Griffin carried this over into his adult life to the point of hurting others, and the author admits he is aware of his actions.

I felt from the very beginning the author over did it. Yes, there are parents who don't want to take the time for their kids once they have them. But...I also feel Russo made every memory Griffin has of his parents just the worst horrible possible. Nothing good whatsoever. Really? Even the way they live, the disrespect for others properties, the affairs, dishonesty writing the descertation, carelessness of his father's driving, etc. etc. etc. until all of a sudden comes the search for a Christmas tree. Again, Really?? That's why I say a child's memories of their parents and even their feelings toward them can be over dramatized in their eyes as a child and then sketchy as an adult. Its all one dimensional....HORRIBLE parents.

For me personally, Russo just took everything over the top to the point I was not finding it trustworthy. Maybe it was meant to be a comedy and it would explain the parents being the worst of the worst in every part of their lives. I'm not buying this story nor am I laughing. I don't think he drew from his own childhood, I think he drew from all the possibilities of dysfunctional families and threw it all into one book. It's almost like the writers and producers of Jay Leno sitting around collaborating on the show, and every possible thing that could go wrong does, with each person getting more ridiculous as they go along.

I watched a movie with Dustin Hoffman called "Last Chance Harvey." Parts of this book reminded me alot of parts of that movie.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 06, 2009, 04:29:03 PM

Bella- I think that the secret is for me trying to remember it is just a NOVEL!
It makes it easier to bear. Heck I'm always "over the top"-- so I do get that. :D

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 06, 2009, 05:39:56 PM

I'm not seeing Jack as either immature or needing to "grow up." I see an adult who has suffered emotional deprivation, including nurturing, as a child/teen/young adult. I don't think anybody can survive 20+ years of that sort of life and not be affected as an adult. There are studies which say that the first [and number varies here from 4 to 7 or 8] years of a child's life are the most important in determining the adult. His were, in my mind, severely warped...not unlike the babies left in cribs with no touching/human contact. What human contact he had appears to have been negative and critical.

I doubt he had a choice about careers...and being a screen writer would have been "rebellious" from this parents point of view. These are people who look down on others because they haven't gone to graduate school, for heaven's sake. How much more shallow can these people be?

My own view is that he continues to take his mother's calls because I suspect Joy thinks he should...and he may be trying, still, to get approval/love from that "mother"...however improbable that is to me.

I thought the book far better written than most of the "stuff" that appears on the Best Seller list and I found the characters believable and credible. They were not one dimensional, to me.

I suspect he's going to the wedding of his daughter's friend because Laura may be part of the wedding party or that the friend spent time in their home when the girls were younger. The wedding isn't taking place far from where Jack and Joy live...and they've been invited. Their daughter will be there, and it's a chance for Jack and Joy to combine a bit of a "holiday" with the trip...going back to where they'd honeymooned.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 07, 2009, 12:32:30 AM

Oh Jane I have to tell you it would take a huge leap of faith for me to believe someone as twisted as the people in this novel. I know all the statistics, and I myself have lived through more than I care to share, but I have to say Russo is over the top here. Griffin is truly immature, and selfish and Joy points it out as they are approaching their 30's and 40's its time for him to grow up. Russo even has Joy's character contradictory. She comes from a warm, loving, close knit family, yet she allows Griffin's dysfunctional family over shadow hers and deprives her and Laura of being with them for holidays. She stays in a marriage for all these years seeing and knowing Griffin needs help and does nothing. These are supposedly intelligent people, yet therapy or medical help is never mentioned to help Griffin deal with his father's death, overbearing mother and abusive childhood. Like I said, REALLY? Its like EVERYONE in the entire book accomodates Griffin and his whacko parents.

Alf, Yes, remembering no one could possibly be this dysfunctional other than in a movie or novel does make it bearable, just not believable for me. I can accept this as a comedy, as I stated before. I can truly see Russo sitting and coming up with this bizarre behavior and cracking up each time he adds more to this family's dysfunctional behavior. Like someone mentioned early on, its like a Lampoon's comedy. Sick and twisted. ::)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 07, 2009, 08:07:47 AM

Bellamarie, you and I will have to respectfully disagree on many aspects of the book's plot and the characters created within. But, that's what makes a discussion interesting, isn't it? If everyone agreed on everything, there wouldn't be anything to discuss.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 07, 2009, 08:36:23 AM

Yes, it is, and I've done nothing but think about this ever since it was written:

Quote

I'm not seeing Jack as either immature or needing to "grow up." I see an adult who has suffered emotional deprivation, including nurturing, as a child/teen/young adult. I don't think anybody can survive 20+ years of that sort of life and not be affected as an adult.

I keep thinking ....I keep wondering....what IS a "Midlife Crisis?" Is it when the "Sandwich Generation," caught between aging parents and children leaving the nest, have to "find themselves?" Have to come to terms with what life is versus what they hoped/ thought/ dreamed?

How we laugh at the middle aged man with his little tam o shanter and his flashy James Bond convertible, one last gasp? Is that mature?

If we don't call this struggle to emerge as one's own person, to come to grips with life and death on his own terms "growing up," what do we call it?

IS this what the book is really about? One man's Midlife Crisis?

I was startled at the immature thought and have spent two days thinking about it. I don't see him as immature either, but at some point ...how does that verse go: when I became a man I put off childish things.

What here is childish about Jack?

Nothing?

It may be that his reactions are born of his childhood, and he can't shuck them off. I think he's trying to. But I don't think he's alone. I guess the question for me is IS this a "Midlife Crisis?" CAN he be saved actually or is he doomed for good due to his upbringing, to carry this baggage literally around with him, forever?

AND if this is the case, is he really so different from the guy with the 20 year old trophy wife, the tam o shanter and the sports car?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 07, 2009, 08:41:13 AM

I don't see Jack as any kind of strange person, Bellamarie. I think we can see who is an only child in this discussion and who is not, hahahaa

What a strange thing itself to come out of a discussion, imagine our future world with so many overseas producing only children. hahaha Oh my.

I think he's being somewhat honest, we're in his head, this is what he thinks, but even from us he's concealing, I think, his real emotions, that's why he can't sleep Andrea since his father died.

Regrets, guilt, and really in his case, not knowing what he could have or should have done, he's got no blueprint due to his upbringing.

Now he's got another chance, with his mother, that's why he takes the calls as intrusive and abusive as they are.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 07, 2009, 08:50:20 AM

Ginny... I don't know what a "midlife crisis" is from personal experience.

[I've always guessed/ wondered if it occurred with people who'd done whatever was expected of them, without any real decisions made by themselves for themselves. They suddenly discover, at age 40+ that "mom and dad's dream," or "doing what the others in my class are doing" or marrying this or that person because of lust or because it's what all the frat/sorority girls/classmates are doing turns out to be pretty empty and boring. Suddenly life is passing them by and they begin to realize their own mortality.]

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 07, 2009, 08:57:15 AM

JANE, I think your view of Griffin is the most reasonable and accurate.
Sadly for many, turning 18 or 21, doesn't change the imprint of one's
earlier years.
A major theme throughout the book has been that Jack resents the
intrusion of Joy’s parents into their marriage, while steadfastly keeping
his own parents away. Yet, his heritage from his parents deeply defines
who he is and is definitely harming their relationship. Most
particularly in his attitude (his parent’s attitude) toward a family
Joy loves.
I think, Bella, that Russo doesn't understand Joy's character as well as
he does Jack's. That would explain why we see her as not acting as we would expect. I don't believe Joy would have allowed Jack to keep her away from her family. I agree, Russo is off-key here.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Gumtree on November 07, 2009, 11:39:53 AM

Mid Life Crisis ??? I was always too busy to have a mid-life crisis and I guess its too late for me to do that now. All the same I do know people who suddenly went in a different direction or had a hiatus in their personal lives and then resumed the 'even tenor of their lives' though I could never work out quite what caused them to become dissatisfied to the point of rupturing the fabric they had built over years.

Most of us never achieve the full realisation of our hopes and dreams but we do the best we can. Taking stock and then going on determined to change is one thing but taking stock and then throwing everything to the winds seems so often to lead folk to a new life which in the end has just as many regrets as the life left behind. I guess the road not taken beckons too strongly for some to resist.

And how true is Babi's point that the heritage from Jack's parents has defined who he is and that it is harming his relationship with Joy. This is indeed a universal truth as to a great extent we are all defined by our past - even those who would discard aspects of their upbringing as Jack is perhaps wishing he could do.

Griffin's family is dysfunctional and Jack's behaviour and attitudes are not always admirable but I feel a great compassion for this man who has been emotionally stunted by his upbringing and who, in adulthood wants to rid himself of any connection to his parents - except that he can't quite bring himself to do so. He always takes the calls from his mother, cares for her by helping to pay for her assisted living facility and can't bring himself to dispose of his father's ashes. This man is crying out and it seems there is no one to hear him - not his mother, not his wife, not his daughter. Poor man.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 07, 2009, 07:43:28 PM

Gumtree...you've hit the nail on the head, as I view these characters/plot.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 07, 2009, 10:26:01 PM

That Old Cape Magic
by
Richard Russo

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/sagbridge.jpg)

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/oldcapecvrsm.jpg)

(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/mapcapecodsm.jpg) (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/oldcapemagic/map.capecod.jpg)

Questions for Chapters 1 - 3

Discussion Leader: Traude (xx)

My grands were here yesterday and stayed over night. That occupied most of my time. I'm late checking in.

But what marvelous insightful posts we've had in just seven days !!! Thank you all.

Before I reply, let's find out where we are now.

We began with general questions/considerations covering broadly what we are told in chapters 1 to 3. Then we added chapter 4. The main "thread", if I may call it that, is the contemporary story of Griffin, 57 years old, married for 34 of them, driving alone to the Cape.
The narrative does not proceed in chronological order. Every chapter contains flashbacks that reveal, gradually, a complex and unhappy childhood and much that happened later.

It's quite obvious that we can NOT in this case "stick" to a precise order of pages, chapters, even "facts", and therein lies the difficulty. We discover things in stages, so to speak; we are companions on one man's journey. Some of you have read ahead - and that is what I have encouraged, and not because that is my personal preference, but because it is almost a necessity.

We have covered a great many issues openly and honestly. As we enter the second week of our discussion, let's go on to read, re-read and delve into chapters 5 and 6. They shed more light on the past and bring us closer to the day of the (first) wedding. I'm working on questions.

Alf, your thoughts are beautifully expressed. I agree with them. Griffin, the child, was a victim. And no, we should not be too harsh with the man, either (that's what Jane said, right?)

Sally, how true this is about memory. Not only HOW but WHAT we remember is so different, and so are, often, the perspectives of people who had the very same experiences. Yes, I think it can be cathartic to write down our memories, if we are so inclined. But if some are painful, it's not an easy task. (I'm referring to my own.)

Pedln, I appreciate your post and especially your restraint.
Jane, you've expressed your take perfectly. I share your views and cannot add a thing.

Bellamarie, you have told us your views of the book and the author in forceful terms more than once. There is a great deal of criticism (some of it unwarranted IMHO), even a conclusion (!), which, in my opinion, is premature. Mamma mia, we've only been together for one week !! But due note has been taken.

However, as leader of this discussion, let me make clear that this is not a debate. We are not scoring points. We are not trying to impose any one view on everybody else. Arguing back and forth is unhelpful. My objective, here and in life generally, is to maintain harmony and to have an amicable exchange of ideas. Basta.

Ginny, I need to read your pertinent questions again to make sure all are answered. Others' posts must also be acknowledged, but it is getting late, and tomorrow is another day.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 07, 2009, 11:05:55 PM

straudetwo..

Quote

Bellamarie, you have told us your views of the book and the author in forceful terms more than once. There is a great deal of criticism (some of it unwarranted IMHO), even a conclusion (!), which, in my opinion, is premature. Mamma mia, we've only been together for one week !! But due note has been taken.

However, as leader of this discussion, let me make clear that this is not a debate. We are not scoring points. We are not trying to impose any one view on everybody else. Arguing back and forth is unhelpful. My objective, here and in life generally, is to maintain harmony and to have an amicable exchange of ideas. Basta.

Oh my, I apologize deeply if you or anyone else feels I was debating or tryhing to impose my feelings onto anyone. I in no way had intended that to be the case. I have had strong feelings about the book but only because I have never read anything like this before. I suppose my posts were trying terribly to express myself and also get some insight from others. I respect we all have different opinions and feelings. Please don't take it personal in any way, and I will respectfully withdraw from the discussion, since you seem to be upset with me. My sincere apologies Straudetwo. Ciao. :(

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 08, 2009, 08:31:56 AM

Don't go away, BELLA. We need to keep your perceptions in mind as well.

I find I haven't made notes for Ch. 5 and 6. I'm not sure now whether
that's because I was too busy reading, or because I didn't find anything I particularly wanted to comment on. Maybe it was too depresssing.
I'll see what everyone else has to say and then see what I recall.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 08, 2009, 08:39:54 AM

We definitely need ALL opinions here, the object is not to agree, but to hear all sides, and we are ALL over the place opinion wise. I'm forming a...what do you call it? Test thesis why.

I'm curious, now, just for my own thesis, how many only children do we have amongst us? I'm an only child, I think one other person said they were as well, anybody else?

I think, believe it or not, it makes a difference in how you see this book.

Was Russo an only child? That would pretty much blast the theory but hey, that's what a book discussion IS, you theorize and postulate and watch it get smashed but you come away with a better understanding of what was actually said in the book, collectively, than alone. I'm relating, perhaps overly, to the only child here.

I'll go reread 5 and 6, that shouldn't be a chore, especially since I took no notes like the smart ones of you did, and am curious to see what's there.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 08, 2009, 09:58:34 AM

Quote from: ginny on November 08, 2009, 08:39:54 AM

I'm curious, now, just for my own thesis, how many only children do we have amongst us?

I'm a twin. No other siblings. It's probably the best of both worlds.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Gumtree on November 08, 2009, 10:29:34 AM

I'm one of nine and am married to an only child - Work that one out ;D

I haven't got any notes either - am about to reread the next few chapters.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 08, 2009, 10:42:53 AM

Well, I'm also an only child, born 11 yeas after my parents married.
But I grew up with a cousin, nine years older than I. Her mother was my mother's sister. She and her husband died tragically leaving three children. According to the custom of the time, they were raised by family members, not handed over to orphanages.

My mother, the youngest, had been married two years and no children, so it was decided that she should take the baby, 8 months old. She did. Luise was beautiful but a difficult baby and often sick. Later she became willful and the proverbial "hand full" and then some. My mother took on raising Luise as her life's mission. It consumed her. There was little emotion left over for me and I sensed it early. Our relationship was distant. I loved my father.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 08, 2009, 10:58:27 AM

I had one brother. My mother was not particularly happy when I was born-- female. It created a huge gap and she admitted to feeling "jealous" of the attention that my father bestowed upon me. It took many years to work that one out and sadly, I did not, until my mother was in the final stages of Alzheimers.
I shall return after our play "Look Homeward Angel" this afternoon.

Hang in there Bella, noone is upset with you, we all have our own axes to grind and that is what we bring to each discussion.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 08, 2009, 11:12:37 AM

I think considering the "only child" situation is a very interesting take. I think it is indeed one of the factors that makes sense in looking at Jack and his world...[and one which makes sense in understanding other people in our real world since it's a huge factor in what makes us the people we are.]

I have a younger sister, but the family I was raised in is very different from the family I married into. It's been a "mind opening" experience to see the family dynamics "up close and personal" in a family so different from how I was raised.

Yesterday I found Cape back on the New Book carousel at the Library so I was able to check it out again and am going to reread now chapters 5 & 6.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 08, 2009, 11:32:10 AM

Both my best friend, growing up, and my younger cousin were an only child and they sure weren't screwed up like our Jack is. If Jack had a dozen siblings, I doubt that they'd be anymore "together" and normal, do you?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Gumtree on November 08, 2009, 11:38:11 AM

You're right on ALF - if they had the same parents as did Jack they'd all be screwed up.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 08, 2009, 11:50:47 AM

Quote from: jane on November 08, 2009, 11:12:37 AM

the family I was raised in is very different from the family I married into. It's been a "mind opening" experience to see the family dynamics "up close and personal" in a family so different from how I was raised.

It seems as though, after all these years, Griffin is still bewildered by Joy's different family dynamics, doesn't accept that anyone could behave so differently.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 08, 2009, 03:09:49 PM

Bellamarie, your # 81 and your precipitous withdrawal from the group was unexpected - made on the spur of the moment I suspect. But why?

Frankly, I had hoped you might reconsider after sleeping over it -- which is never a bad idea. Trust me.

In my # 80 I merely re-stated the broad guidelines for leading an online discussion, -- which is my prerogative to do as a DL. For more than a decade, we have stressed the fact that every opinion counts, that we are entitled to our own, but free to stick to them. The successes we have achieved, the recognition and reputation we've garnered, speak for themselves.

Diverse as we are, converging from different continents, seasons and time zones, we've all benefited from these exchanges and formed a solid bond - even though only a relative few have met in person.

Now then, this discussion will continue and you are most welcome to join us, again.
But the decision is yours.

BTW, my name is Traude, a nickname. "straudetwo" was created for online purposes. Only.
Pace = Peace
T

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 08, 2009, 03:37:24 PM

I think Jane is right in what she just said.

So we don't really have another "only child" here yet, raised in a household where that child was the only buffer between parents? Moi, said Miss Piggy, and...?

It seems as though, after all these years, Griffin is still bewildered by Joy's different family dynamics, doesn't accept that anyone could behave so differently.

Yes and no that's not it. Bewildered yes, not accepting? Not what I see, I see him as more uncomprehending the family dynamic, especially when she seems a tad short toward his own needs, Jane first brought that up and she's right.

If Jack had a dozen siblings, I doubt that they'd be anymore "together" and normal, do you?

Absolutely. They'd have had each other, for good or ill, they'd have had each other. They'd also have had a different mother who had to cope with 13 children, a different scenario altogether.

We're in Jack's head. He's not trying to bleach it or make it PC, there are a LOT more devastating things he might have said, read Regrets Mrs. Astor for some of Charlene's remarks.

This is becoming a fascinating discussion.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 08, 2009, 03:42:42 PM

Thank you traude, Babi, Ginny and Alf, I do very much enjoy the discussions and just never ever want to upset anyone. Its possible Jack has unnerved us all more than we realized. :o

I think I have gotten completely spoiled with the last few senior learn book discussions, where we have had the pleasure of having the authors join us to help us out with understanding their books. So... I decided I needed to hear something from Richard Russo. I did a search and was thrilled to find some interviews of him talking about "That Old Cape Magic." I listened to the radio interviews, and I love how he says, his wife wanted to travel with him on his book tour to make certain he made it clear he did NOT draw from their happy 37 yr. marriage. lololol He also said he is not an only child, did not draw from his own childhood, and did not have this dysfunctional type of life. lolol Does that surprise us? It did me.

In Russo's own words, it is indeed meant to be a dark comedy, from the very beginning when the bird poops on Jack and throughout. He says this book actually began as a short story about the Brownings, and when he had Jack's phone ring and he pulls over to the side of the road to take the phone call, originally the call was to be from Joy, but a part of his subconscious brain had him writing it be his Mother. So..from that point on the story evolved in a different direction. Instead of writing a short story about the Brownings, it went into a totally different direction he never expected or intended.
(Much like Jay Leno and his writers sitting around and letting things totally flow as it may.) :)

I truly enjoyed reading and listening to Russo's interviews, much more than actually reading this book. :-[
I like what Russo says here….”Memory is treacherous." [/i]

After listening to Russo's interviews I actually found myself not disliking the book as much. I can take it more into the context of his writing rather than so serious and analytical.

I don't think there is anything in these interviews that would spoil the ending of the book for those who have not finished reading it.

Enjoy!!!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111512452

http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/08/richard-russo-that-old-cape-magic

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 08, 2009, 04:15:50 PM

Quote

We're in Jack's head. He's not trying to bleach it or make it PC

exactly....and what we think and what we say in public can be two different things. What Jack is saying to us is what's honestly in his head.

Things I would write here about a family dynamic might not be the way I think about it in my head. Dishonest? Yeah, probably. [I once made a comment aloud, unfortunately, to my sisters-in-law that all Lithuanian food was gray. [We were in a restaurant, and everything I saw had been boiled...and was, to me, gray.] Believe me, they've NEVER forgotten that comment and bring it up at some point too often for my comfort.]

So, I cut Jack some slack because of that experience of my own. I also take what he says as the way it was for him as a child. I haven't found any other characters who are telling me a different story...and nope, his "mother" doesn't count. She's a bitch on wheels to me...and gets no pass from me. Young arrogant, egocentric, rude, and shallow people turn into old arrogant, egocentric, rude, and shallow people.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 08, 2009, 04:58:45 PM

Thank you, Bellamarie, millle grazie and welcome back.

Aren't we lucky, indeed blessed, to be able to voice our opinions freely without fear it may cost us our head - or our freedom ?

Think of present-day Myanmar (the former Burma) by comparison.
Or of the centuries of war that ravaged Europe!

Merciful Lord, why do we need wars, destruction and devastation ? Isn't tis transitory life short enough already?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 08, 2009, 05:56:18 PM

This book has brought out strong emotions & differences of opinions from all of us, and we're not even half way through! I hesitate to say too much since I have read the entire book. I am going to try to re-check it from our library to refresh myself. In case I can't, Straude, what pages to the next chapters cover? My notes only have page numbers next to them.

I am having trouble condensing my writings since all of you are making interesting points. I can appreciate the fact that this is a well-written book, but I don't particularly like it. I am not a fan of "dark" humor. (Isn't that an oxymoron??) Dark humor to me is not funny. That being said, some of the best discussions in my ftf book club have been with books
that many of the members did not care for.

I think Griffin returning to the Cape is flooding his memories of the past. Places do bring back memories, don't they? He can't expect to have much happiness in the future until he resolves certain issues of the past. Does he really want to let go? Some people seem to revel in their grievances. They seem to get some sort of perverse satisfaction from dwelling on their wrongs. I am reminded of the scene in the movie Rainman where Dustin Hoffman kept a notebook with a list of all the people & the wrongs they committed. Now that was funny!!
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 08, 2009, 06:09:43 PM

Jane, you are cracking me up. I have a few sisters who don't ever seem to forget the slip of the tongue I have made, and at the most opportune times they remind me of them. lololol

After hearing Russo's laughter and words in the interview, I found myself chuckling along with him, and imagining him having so much fun creating William and Mary. Hey by the way.... did anyone realize Russo used the two names of a well known academia college in the east for Jack's parents? What a sly old fox he is.

Remember Russo states his subconscious side of his brain took over the analytical side of his brain, and all of his writing went a muck. And a muck indeed it came out on pages. lolol Russo had a blast writing this book. Not to take away from the issues he created for Jack as a child following him into his adult life, but he does admit to the fact we all have a legacy we carry into our marriage and adult life. So that is what Jack is doing, and trying to deal with it. Let us not forget Russo states, "Memory is treacherous." In saying this, I feel Russo is telling us pretty much what we have all concluded. We can't always count on our memories to be vivid or relliable, so we should not be believing all of Jack's memories to be either. Russo's laughter was like the lyrics in the song of Mary Poppins, "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine down." His laughter is the sugar for me, helping the medicine (Jack, William and Mary) go down. lolol

Sally, Yes. I agree, places we revisit can trigger memories we thought we had buried forever. I have experienced it many times in my life. Good and not so good memories I dare say.

Traude, " Aren't we lucky, indeed blessed, to be able to voice our opinions freely without fear it may cost us our head - or our freedom ? "

Yes, indeed we are lucky and blessed to still have this freedom. Amen!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 08, 2009, 07:31:46 PM

Good, I’m glad we can now move on to chapters 5 & 6 because while reading these next few chapters one word kept nudging me (in my head) and that was CONNECTION.
As disconsolate and disconnected as Jack is he does seem to attempt to reach out and then withdraws and backs away.
I have the feeling that he does not like feeling detached and muddled so intermittently he strives for a “connection.” He is looking for a bond, an alliance or maybe a kindred soul.
While in the bar he made eye contact with the “Asian” Sunny Kim studying the SMIRT sign. “OK, got it, how about you?” He hoped that his own look in return might be interpreted as “Yeah, sure, me.”

He stepped back from any affiliation in the bar and pretended to be on his cell.
When he met the couple in the bar discussing the word SMIRT the woman attempted to make a connection with Jack as she leaned forward to speak with him again and told him “We’re going to figure out what that says- You and Me.” He kept glancing at the couple, sizing them up and yet not wanting to indulge in conversation.
He is so utterly—what? Solitary, isn’t he?

He was disconnected with his own wife and their home. It was Joy’s house, “NOT THEIRS.”
It was as if they’d divorced and she received it in a settlement.

Even in union he felt detached.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 09, 2009, 08:46:34 AM

JANE, an interesting point about differences in family dynamics. My
husband came from a large and quarrelsome family. Perhas that is, to a
degree, inevitable, with the crowding and the competition for attention
or the last piece of pie. ;) My husband said one reason he moved to Texas was to get avoid being pulled into the arguments.
I was one of only two children, but all the aunts, uncles and cousins
got together as much as possible and thoroughly enjoyed one another. My husband liked my family, happily, and the distance between Texas and New York precluded too much involvement with his, tho' I did like most of them.
I think, PATH, that Jack was not able to entirely cast off his parents'
snobbish assessment of the non-scholarly as inferiors. He was stiff around
Joy's family and they were never comfortable with him.

Quote

"a dark comedy"

Thank you for that comment from Russo, Bella. It fits this book very well, indeed.

I think you're right, ALF. Jack Griffin is detached; he does not know how
to form attachments. Understandable, since his childhood was so solitary. His one attachment was with Peter Browning, and that did not
end happily. Now, having entered into a marriage bond with Joy, he does
seem to want her almost exclusive attention.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 09, 2009, 09:01:47 AM

Thank you for those links to what Russo intended, Bellamarie. I'm glad to hear the humor in his voice also.

And he's not an only child, which shoots my theory to the skies, but that's OK, but the alienation is still there, palpably, so what does it mean, those of you with siblings, his inability to understand why Joy wants to see her family? On purpose!

It's always interesting to me to find out what the author thinks he was saying, and doing, his intent, if you can find it, versus what the reader thought was happening and the result the reader found. Here's another entrant in Who Do You Trust, a surprising one.

How many many times have we read books here since 1996 and have had our theories, what we see, and what we think we're reading, and then we read or if lucky hear the author say, this is what I was trying to do: this is what I wanted to show, when, in fact, lots of times we heard and understood something completely different? Something is coming thru from the author he may not have intended.

It's interesting. I don't know where some of what we see comes from, is it US? Some authors don't succeed in their original intent, many are often surprised at what readers see in a book. To me if it's there in print, it's there. We'll have to decide, each of us, for ourselves, if, at the end, if Russo succeeds or fails in his intent.

This morning in a Latin class this poem was printed (we're reading about Eurydice) and I thought it was so perfect for this book I am posting it here with the attribution:

No Direction Home

by Charles Wright

After a certain age, there's no one left to turn to.
You've got to find Eurydice on your own,
you've got
To find the small crack
between here and everywhere else all by yourself.

How could it be otherwise?
Everyone's gone away, the houses are all empty,
And overcast starts to fill the sky like soiled insulation.

"No Direction Home" by Charles Wright, from Sestets. © Farrar, Straus & Giroux. Reprinted with permission.

I think he's got it.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 09, 2009, 10:02:12 AM

What a great poem Ginny to bring here.
Yesterday a group of us attended a presentation of "Look Homeward Angel" and the play ended with these words.
" The world is within you- YOU, are the world, you are seeking."
-
A PS here . It was the world is within YOU. That's what it was.

Nothing like a most depressing play to cheer up a gloomy Sunday afternoon. ::)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 09, 2009, 10:48:21 AM

Quote

It's interesting. I don't know where some of what we see comes from, is it US? Some authors don't succeed in their original intent, many are often surprised at what readers see in a book. To me if it's there in print, it's there. We'll have to decide, each of us, for ourselves, if, at the end, if Russo succeeds or fails in his intent.

I agree that it is US. That's the whole purpose of reading for me. I'm in that lonely fragment of readers on the outside loop. I don't give a darn what the writer "intended" or what his purpose was. I don't care what the author now says in interviews or in a discussion. I don't like having the author present...trying, to my mind, to force his view of what he's done on me. I've heard too many authors I like say that the book "got away from them." That the characters didn't turn out as they'd first outlined them, etc. I think that happens with good writers. They don't end up following the "outline"...and the age old adage has always been to "write about what you know." I think that what some of the "know" isn't known to them on a conscious level.

In addition, this is FICTION. His words and their impact on me are based on my life, my experiences, my view of the world. He may open new horizons to me, he may show me a different way of looking at people or situations, he may introduce me to people and their behaviors I'm not familiar with. In the end, however, it's what I get from his writings, based on my own experiences, that make the book worthwhile or not for me. And, at this point in my life, that's all I care about.

Now, I don't read books that don't interest me or that I'm "supposed" to read for all sorts of educational reasons that I don't give a fig about. Been there/done that. I've waded through more "literary classics" that were so much hogwash than I can stand.

I'm wondering why Sunny Kim didn't speak to Jack in the bar that night...didn't reintroduce himself when he realized Jack hadn't recognized him. Did anyone else find that odd?

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 09, 2009, 10:58:26 AM

Quote

I'm wondering why Sunny Kim didn't speak to Jack in the bar that night...didn't reintroduce himself when he realized Jack hadn't recognized him. Did anyone else find that odd?

Sunny explains himself later -- that he thought he was seeing Jack, but when he didn't see Mrs. Griffin, he wasn't so sure. Remember, the Griffins were considered the "cool" parents by the kids back then, still talking to each other. So seeing Jack alone may have intimidated the ever-proper Sunny.

Quote

and I love how he says, his wife wanted to travel with him on his book tour to make certain he made it clear he did NOT draw from their happy 37 yr. marriage.

I love that, too, Bellamarie. Funny. No doubt lots of people are raising their eyebrows and wondering. Now, if Jack were writing the book, would Joy insist on travelling or would she say, “as you wish?”

Yesterday there were lots of definitions of mid-life crisis, and then Russo puts a definition in the next chapters – someone who wishes he could go back to being “halfway there.” “Was this what it came to, he wondered. pumping his first in solidarity with those younger than he? . . the desire to be once again, just halfway there?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 09, 2009, 11:08:10 AM

Ah...thank, Pedln...I missed that about Sunny not sure it was Jack.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 09, 2009, 02:03:46 PM

Babi, I too came from a large family, 6 girls and 1 boy. And BOY...was he spoiled by everyone! I completely could relate when you said "compete for attention." My father was killed when I was two yrs old, and being the second to the youngest, I felt my entire life, we all were struggling and competing for our mother to see us, see our accomplishments, give us the hug we needed, say the words "I Love You", rather than just assume we knew it because she cared for us physically. She remarried when I was only three or four, and he was a horrible step father. If ever a child needed a positive father image and didn't get a good one, it was me. The year I was to be married, I lay in bed back home, due to infectious hepatitis, listening to my Mom and step father argue about him having an affair and getting the married woman pregnant. For him he was thrilled because my mother was never able to give him a child of his own, and yet he had seven of hers to raise. I know...I should write a novel. lolol But..since they divorced the year I got married, and my Mom died in 1990, our family has separated. Some of us sisters have tried to make it work, but we are better off apart. I moved away from our small town and know its been my salvation. Those years of sitting around the kitchen table drinking coffee and cackling like hens are no longer. Sometimes, I do believe you have to love family from afar. Maybe that is what Jack and Joy felt. They loved their families, just didn't need to have the constant daily, weekly interaction as other siblings did. I vowed to make my adult life, marriage and children's life a safe haven, a place where the words and actions of love were open so there was no guessing or assuming. So, in a sense I can understand why Jack would want to attempt avoiding anything his parents represented. Although, I am not so sure he has been successful at it up to this point.

Ginny, That poem is amazing, how perfect it fits into our plot of the book. What a great find!!

Alf, WOW! What a quote to bring to us today. Isn't it so true? We can make our world, fun, loving, interesting, exciting, traveled, and a wonderful place to be...or....we can carry that baggage with us and become cynical, self indulgent, unloving, egotistical, snobbish and a place not many would like to visit. Sunday is such a precious day for doing the things the week does not allow...I feel for you spending yours watching a depressing play, especially after taking your valuable time reading this depressing, dark comedy. When you have lemons, make lemonade!!!

Jane, I totally agree with you, when I read a book I must feel like I am getting something personally from it and taking away something that made my time worth giving to reading it in the first place. Good or bad, regardless what the author explains the meaning and intentions were for him, WE do make it ours. Russo admitted his subconscious took over while writing this book and it ended up being a dark comedy, which was not at all what he began writing. So..if that is the case, then he may very well have subconsciously wrote things we are picking up on he wasn't aware was there. GOOD FOR US!!!! Not much does get by us senior learn members, no leaf is ever left unturned. lol But..I absolutely love having input from an author. Afterall, it is their work and who better to help us understand then them. Now whether we feel they have accomplished making us believe it, connect to it or accept it is another thing all together. We, as the reader, are free to decide for ourselves, and it sure makes for great discussions such as these.

Quote

I've waded through more "literary classics" that were so much hogwash than I can stand.

Amen I say to that! I don't want to offend but I just finished Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility before joining this discussion. My first experience with Austen and I must a say, a classic it is, but so senseless for me. I'm still going..HUH???? lolol But, in saying this I will not give up on Austen, I have three more of her books and will read them come hell or high water. lolol

Now, I have to address the entire behaviors described in chapter 5 Smirt. Page 104 "The way his parents saw it, renting allowed them to remain flexible, so if a job came along at Swarthmore or Sarah Lawrence they wouldn't be saddled with an unsellable house in the Mid-F'n west. Its all about his parents constantly moving, and total disregard for the rentals, buying things and never completely putting them together, and wreckless driving. Then it goes on to tell us about Jack and Joy constantly moving for any reason they can think of.

pg 105 "For the first several years of their marriage, with Great Truro Accord temporarily on hold, Griffin and Joy had lived almost as nomadically as his parents, moving from apartment to apartment- pg. 106 " They didn't have or want a lot of possesions, and friends like Tommy and his wife Elaine, always helped them with the moves-"

I sense Bipolar/manic disorder here. The grandiose ideas, the constant spending, constant moving, depressed, insomnia, highly intelligent, self indulgent, id behavior. Oh how I would love to have just ten minutes to talk to Russo in person today. lolol Okay gotta run. I am sure I gave you all plenty to think about with this post. Can't wait to hear your thoughts.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 09, 2009, 11:38:08 PM

Marvelous, insightful informative posts, all. thank you.

Ginny, the poem is a gem. Have copied it, must hang it where I can see it every minute.
And, to echo Jane, it IS US.
We've taken many literary journeys together, too many highlights to enumerate here. The variety, the breadth, the contrasts ...
Who could forget Dante's Inferno; The Yellow Wallpaper; Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov; A Thousand Splendid Suns ; Paris 1919, Six Months That Changed the World ; Don Quixote - just to name a few?
It's been a long road over strange landscapes, time periods and locales, literally and figuratively, and it is no exaggeration to say that it has been an education all its own.

Bellamarie, thank you for the URLs. Indeed, the more information we glean, the better.
Incidentally, I have referred in a previous post to a clipping I took from the Sunday Boston Globe Magazine of an interview with Russo, which took place at the first Boston Book Festival in mid October.

Unfortunatgely, I can't put my hands on that clipping, but I do remember (and reported here) that one of the questions the Globe interviewer asked was whether the author himself is an only child. Russo answered that he is but his wife has siblings. I don't mean to be fussy, but whyis there disparate information out there?

Alf, yes, it's about connections. And Griffin seems to have lost his. It's interesting too, isn't it, that he really would have liked Joy to make him change his mind and (offer to) wait for her. And there's a similar occasion. When Laura asks him to join her and Andy for dinner, he begs off -- only to be disappointed,. It seems he had expected Laura would insist. After all, he was not that tired. But she did not. Joy's daughter, all right. Clearly she wondered why they had come in separate cars.

We must talk of how to decipher SCRIMT. And we had better not lose sight of the unnamed man and woman Griffin meets in the eatery. And we have aa new character to "chew" on, Sunny Kim!!

Of course, Bellamarie, the names again! The names of the parents! It took Russo long enough to give Mother and Father a name. Can we assume that it was deliberate? Dare we ask why?

You are right on. William and Mary is one of the most prestigious liberal arts institutions of higher learning in the country, founded by Episcopalians, the second oldest, after Harward. It is named for King William III of England and Quen Mary II, and located in the historic town of Williamsburg, Virginia. BTW to visit the town is a unique experience, not only in summer but also at Christmastime.

We lived in Virginia before my husband was transferred to Massachusetts, and became very aware of the eminence and distinction of the university:
The son of neighbors across the street, a few years older than my son - and a typical only child - had his heart set on William & Mary; so had his parents.
He was accepted. He set off, eagerly. He came home for Thanksgiving - and never went back to W&M. We remained close and never asked. The fall from the imagined heights was heart-breaking to watch; I've never forgotten the experience.

Jane, I feel the same way about an author's presence in a discussion, and always have. When an author is a participant (and , mind you, to have an author there is an honor and a tremendous help), I personally would be much more cautious in what I say so as not to offend.

When I joined WREX years ago, it was extremely difficult for me to "critique" the other members' submissions on the structure, style and, yes, the spelling. Mal Freeman had to "lean on me" before I did. And when Bubble (ET) and I took over, we changed the term "critique" to the much gentler "comment".

"First do no harm" is a good motto, not only in medicine :) :)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 10, 2009, 07:04:07 AM

Quote

Russo answered that he is but his wife has siblings. I don't mean to be fussy, but why is there disparate information out there?

He IS? IS he or ISN'T he? If you pointed a gun at me, I'd say from what he's written about Joy's family alone he is.

I came away from the bit about his not being an only child thinking boy he's really captured it, then, what a writer, what an imagination, how has he managed, where did that come from? But as Jane said (super post, should be framed) as are many of your posts, never saw such a great bunch of points and points of view: dazzling! But as Jane said you write what you know, and here's that unconscious thing dripping in, but he's not an only child. How can that be? And now he might be?

No biography of his that I read previous to coming in here mentions a sibling, what's going on? His mother and father's names are given and their occupation, nothing on siblings. Has he invented himself also? Fascinating!

I like this rereading of Chapter 5 and 6, surely I can do that and catch up here: off to read....

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 10, 2009, 08:44:51 AM

Bella, Jack does make it plain he does not want to be like his parents,
and congratulates himself that he is not. I don't think he realizes the
subtle ways in which he is continuing some of his parents' views.
My own personal take on the ashes in the trunk and the telephone tie to his Mother, is simply that he is still searching for some affirmation from them. He cannot yet let them go, because he has never gotten what he so badly needed from them.
“The crux of Joy’s case…that his parents, despite their physical absence, had intruded on their marriage as much as hers had, that he perversely wanted them to….” Whether he wanted them to or not, Joy is perfectly correct that they did. The old tapes are constantly playing in Jack’s head. They were not ‘there’ for him as a boy; now he cannot even discard their ashes.

As for Austen, BELLA, relax into the atmosphere, the times and the mores, and enjoy her delicious observations. Leave your modern viewpoints behind for the interim. Austen is well worth it.

Quote

",,we changed the term "critique" to the much gentler "comment".

A wise and thoughtful decision, TRAUDE. Personally, I am perfectly willing to comment, but would definitely hesitate to 'critique'.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 10, 2009, 11:22:10 AM

Russo an only child or not?

Here we go. I found at least[ my earlier post : It is # 38, an answer to a post from Sheila.

In the third paragraph I referred to an interview with Russo in October, quoted in the Magazine Supplement of the Boston Globe dated October 18. The clipping has disappeared ;D but it's got to be here somewhere.

The interviewer asked whether the story is autobiographical.
To that the author said only that there are "autobiographical similarities" in that he IS an only child
but his wife has siblings.

It would make sense. Everything points to it, that's my "Fingerspitzengefühl" = a very specific tingling in the fingertips. The word is untranslatable, according to even the late language maven of the NYT, William Safire, who was much admired and is sorely missed.

On of these days the clipping is bound to turn up.

More later.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 10, 2009, 12:53:58 PM

Eureka! Found the clipping. Here it is in its entirety.

Under the photograph of the author is

Casting His Spell
Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist Richard Russo will discuss his new book,
That Old Cape Magic, as part of the first Boston Book Festival this Saturday.

In That Old Cape Magic you compare Cape Cod and the Maine coast. What has living in those places meant to you?

A. I've never lived in Cape Cod, but started visiting because I was going to set the novel there. The Cape had what I needed, though it could have been any of those magical seaside places that are very expensive and kid of recede before you as you run toward them. I've lived in Maine since 1991.

The novel is abou a midlife crisis. Have you had one? ]

A. Not a terribly serious one. I bought a Miata and I think that's about as hairbrained as I got. Some critics asume the main character Jack Griffin is me, that I must be suffering some kind of meltdown and that my marriage was crumbling.

So we must establish that the novel was not autobiographical.

A. There is some autobioraphy in the sense that I'm an only child and my wife, Barbara, is one of 10.
So I was able to show what it's like to visiti a large, boisterous family when you're used to quiet.

Have marriage and family changed in the last 30 years?

I don't think there's a doubt in my mind. We're all living longer, but also, we have to nurse our grievances longer. Families are more likely to just disperse.

Your work is sometimes about loss to individuals and in society. Where is the country headed?

A. Oh, Lord. In the darker days, before the new presidency, thee was a sense that America was finished.
With Obama, there's a great ense of possibility. But my fellow Americans are beginning to wear me down.
Watching people chip away at Obama, I remain optimistic but less so than I was.

You deal with profound issues in your work, yet manage to infuse the narrative with great humor.

A. It hadn't occurred to me until the writing of Mohawk and really the editing of it that I was going to be a comic writer. I began to realize I was not going to be able to go, in my novels, from one dark place to another. I was going to have to let loose my profound conviction that the world is a very, very entertaining place when it's not breaking our hearts.

Glenn C. Altschuler

finis

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 10, 2009, 01:06:51 PM

YEA!!!! Traude, I am so happy you found your article. And YES, he is an only child. I went back and listened to that radio interview, and I beleive I got it mixed up with him talking about having two daughgters when he spoke of the vacations they took. OOPs my bad. :-[ So I think its fair to say, even if Russo says he did not draw from his own childhood, I am going to conclude his subconcious DID!! Which if we revisit Ginny's theory, each and everyone of us reading his book is going to bring with us our own personal feelings based on whether we were one or many children in our family. How exciting to realize this!

I came across a few more wonderful interviews which now has me more accepting of his writing style and I am actually going to try renting the two movies, Nobody's Fool and Empire Falls. I know movies sometimes do not do justice for the actual book, but I think I might enjoy watching them. Knowing Russo is a satirical writer helps me appreciate this book so much more. In one of his interviews I listened to, a person asked him the difference in the process of writing fiction vs. non fiction and he answered, (paraphrased) While he has not written much non fiction, he feels when writing nonfiction you can't allow yourself the freedom to let it become what it will. Non fiction you have to start out knowing more, a good chunk of it, where as with fiction you leave yourself open to the imagination.

Traude,

Quote

Of course, Bellamarie, the names again! The names of the parents! It took Russo long enough to give Mother and Father a name. Can we assume that it was deliberate? Dare we ask why?

I seriously went back a couple times while reading and posting to try to find the names of Griffin's parents and thought I had over looked them. Why indeed did it take Russo so long to finally reveal their names? My theory is... as he mentioned about the way his subconscious took over the writing, that he didn't intend to write about the parents, so he didn't have names chosen. I can see his sic comedy coming up with these two names, William and Mary as he finally realized he had not properly named them. What better names to put for this pair after describing their academia, snobbish personalities. NOT that I am referring to this particular college as those adjectives. lol For discussion's sake I suppose we could ponder why he waited so long, but after hearing him talk about how he wrote this book, Griffin became his main character, and it was an oversight or he felt not necessary til later on. He waited for his subconscious to reveal them. I say in jest. :)

Babi,

Quote

“The crux of Joy’s case…that his parents, despite their physical absence, had intruded on their marriage as much as hers had, that he perversely wanted them to….”

Russo did a fine job in how he showed how Joy's parents were offering help so as to have an emotional hold on them. How many of us are guilty of that, and how many times have we set back and seen this happen to young couples startinging out? Yes, the offer of helping out with the down payment, small loan etc. is made with genuine feelings of helping them get started, but most often the end result is the parents expect more from the couple and the couple feels trapped into having to do as the parents expect of them because they accepted the help. "Oh the webs we weave, as we set out to deceive." I liked how Jack did not want to accept their offer and he wanted to make it on his own. Although, I am struggling with thinking his ulterior motive was because he could take his good ole sweet time in settling down in one spot for any amount of time.

I do love how Russo captured the human everyday feelings and situations and kept them real. Maybe a bit too extreme at times, but I can honestly say, after reading the entire book and giving it more thought than I expected to, we all know at least one person or situation that fits these characters in the book. Just watch a few episodes of Dr. Phil and you will come away thinking...hmmm Russo was spot on writing about the dysfunctional families, with added humor for entertainment. And...it helps me to keep reminding myself....it's fiction and just a novel! ;D

Babi, Thank you, I shall take your advice on Austen. I did find while I read if I set myself into a movie frame of mind, picturing the scenery, old English dresses etc. it helped me stay with the characters.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 10, 2009, 06:20:52 PM

I loved the conversation on pgs 66-67 Plumb--We're "plumb some", meaning close enough unless you are building a skyscraper 30 stories up. Half a bubble off factored over 30 floors was no small thing. Russo referenced it to writing where a false note at the beginning was much more costly than one nearer the end, because early errors were part of the foundation. That's the problem with stories or books---they end unconvincingly because of some critical misstep at or near the beginning. Could this possibly be a reference to his life? Was Griffin "plumb some"? He is 56 years old and his foundation is definitely wobbling!

Pg. 70 "How do you distance yourself from your inheritance? He, like his parents, was inclined to locate happiness in some vague future." His future is now. He has a choice to either let go and be happy in the here and now, or end up a bitter, lonely old man.
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 10, 2009, 06:41:40 PM

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That's the problem with stories or books---they end unconvincingly because of some critical misstep at or near the beginning. Could this possibly be a reference to his life? Was Griffin "plumb some"? He is 56 years old and his foundation is definitely wobbling!

Thanks, Sally, for pointing that out. If we’re talking about the foundation built 56 years ago, can it be fixed?

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His words and their impact on me are based on my life, my experiences, my view of the world.

Jane

That takes me back to when my youngest was about 12 or 13, reading Mr. & Mrs. Bojo Jones, probably the first YA novel that allowed a girl to get pregnant before she was married. My daughter was telling me that in the story this one’s mother was an alcoholic, that one’s mother was a druggie, but “you’re like so-n-so’s mother.” Oh dear, now what. “You’re normal.” Whew, a compliment that I’ll always treasure.

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Jack does make it plain he does not want to be like his parents,
and congratulates himself that he is not. I don't think he realizes the
subtle ways in which he is continuing some of his parents' views.

Babi

Reading a book like this, and others that really delve into the family dynamics, you can’t help but wonder about things your kids or your siblings might not tell you. About what impacted them negatively and positively, too. My kids used to refer to what they called “Momisms,” a “there she goes again” predictable behavior, but it was more fun to catch a sibling doing it.

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It seems he had expected Laura would insist. After all, he was not that tired. But she did not. Joy's daughter, all right. Clearly she wondered why they had come in separate cars.

Traude

I won’t say we’ve been slamming Griffin, but we’ve really disected him. Which is our purpose here. But he does have some redeeming points. Laura, for one. Surely not Joy’s daughter alone. “The hug she gave him . .. .. assumed he was fine, maybe even indestructible, and he was glad if that’s how he seemed to her.” (He rescued her from the snarling dog, Sid.) Laura is a happy person, she’s compassionate and caring. And we’ve seen some of the same in Jack, maybe not so much the happiness, but the empathy, the caring, his concern about the young Sunny Kim. He was the only son-in-law to repay the house loan, and yes, he did have his reasons for doing so.

Being from the midwest, thinking that Maine and Cape Cod were all the same – they’re on the ocean, right, cold, north – I finally looked at a map. So Griffin drove all the way out to the end of Cape Cod, to Provincetown (passing Truro on the way), then turned back and drove all the way to the other end, the farthest corner from Provincetown, to the B and B which was somewhere around Falmouth. And could not find any place for his father’s remains?

I knew the parents’ mames were William and Mary, but where did that come up in the book?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 10, 2009, 11:46:35 PM

Just lost a long post but will start again.

Sally, a good point. Originally his explanation of why story about the Brownings "just wasnt any good". In the broader sense it could be a reflection on his own life. But not having defined his "funk" yet, can he think of a way to repair it? In the narrower sense, could we consider this book as his attempt to
rectify what was not good with the foundation of short story and instead produce a more elaborate, more expansive story?

Pedln,there is no specific reference in the story to William & Mary, either the royal personages or the college. It is a conjecture, and not far-fetched either, given Russo's obvious flair for assigning names and inventing nicknames. For a long time, or so it seemed, he talked only about the "mother" and the "father", and that is the way I continued to think of them.

I took note of the father's first name finally on pg. 70., second paragraph, where Joy described his "recent funk". Griffin, thinking: "He didn't know what to call it, only its name was not Professor William Griffin."

Griffin could have called it "malaise". Whatever it was developed gradually over a period of time, and Chapter 5 provides revealing answers. For years everything had gone swimmingly, or so he thought. But then Tommy and Elaine split up, and things changed over night. Little stuff, mostly. For instance ...
It's in the long paragraph on page 74. There are wonderful comic scenes, ready-made for the big screen for maximum comic effect.

I don't believe we have been unfair or harsh with Griffin. We have been trying to understand him, to follow him on the circuitous road between coming to grips with the current problem he had at least co-created, and exploring the past to check where it all began. He's adding up accounts, as it were. Part One takes place on Cape Cod, Part Two in Maine, one year later. At this point we really are as much in a fog as Griffin is.

He has developed doubts about the course his professional life has taken; plotted more or less by Joy, he thinks, accusingly. He tells us that screen writing was an uncertain occupation, they were flush one day, penniless the next. Not all assignments panned out, nor were they all lucrative. As time went on they did hackwork, quick rewrites, sometimes endless variations of the same story, all fruitless in the end. Griffin has a few choice words for producers. An interesting perspective. I had no idea.

Financially they were as clueless as Griffin's parents. Prodded more or less by Joy and not of his own volition, he got out of the business. They built the house ("her" house). Laura grew p. They settled into a comfortable sameness.
But was Joy happy? Why was she crying in the shower one morning?
And why is he now toying with the idea to move back to LA for a semester ? Why now? Just a year after whole house was finally done.

Most reviewers have speculated that Griffin's problem was a mid-life crisis, a meltdown. It's possible.
Somewhere I heard that it happens to men more often than to women. That too is possible. I've never had time to ponder about it and no personal experiences.

Griffin's problem baffles the reader. The narrator himself has no idea what "brought this on" and looks to the past for an explanation. Here's a question: The circumstances of this fictional protagonists may be totally different from our own, but aren't they fundamental, universal[, existential issues? and don't we all have to face them in our lives at one time or other?

Griffin is a kind man, compassionate, generally good-natured, if a bit selfish. But aren't we all in one way or another? He loves Laura, he loves Joy too- after his own fashion but takes her for granted. Such things do happen to people every day !!! Griffin was immediately sympathetic with the "dolled-up woman in her forties" who had hoped for a special evening but had to eat at the bar in the company of an insensitive boor.
Gosh, it's late and I'll have to take this up again tomorrow.

Ginny, the Charles Wright poem and Eurydice reminded me of the indescribably beautiful, sad Brazilian movie Black Orpheus. An unforgettable experience.
They don't make films like that any more.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 11, 2009, 08:30:51 AM

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The circumstances of this fictional protagonists may be totally different from our own, but aren't they fundamental, universal[, existential issues? and don't we all have to face them in our lives at one time or other?

I woke up thinking along the same line, Traude. I don't think it's midlife crisis, either. I think it's a nostalgic trip down memory lane as he returns to Cape Cod, the place he spent a month every year of his childhood and where he honeymooned. He's alone, and so nobody to be conversing with, and the memories of childhood come on strong. He's in, as you say, a bit of a funk. He's 57 and that's probably too old to start a new career and too young to hang up the one he's got and retire. It's a "no man's land...between the proverbial rock and a hard place. I, too, thinks he loves both Laura and Joy...and the funk isn't really about them so much as it is about looking back, here on the Cape, to where he's been with his life this last 57 years.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 11, 2009, 08:32:45 AM

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"I was going to have to let loose my profound conviction that the world is a very, very entertaining place when it's not breaking our hearts."

I love that quote. It sums up the world beautifully. Thanks, TRAUDE.

That "plumb some" story was fun, wasn't it, SALLY. I got a grin out of
that, too. I also enjoyed that Jack had the insight and humor to apply
'plumb some' to his marriage.

I heartily agree with PEDLN. If you raise a 'happy, compassionate' child, you must be doing something right. Both parents share the credit for the person Laura turned out to be, of course, but Jack does seem to
have been a good father.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 11, 2009, 01:58:28 PM

Traude,

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Most reviewers have speculated that Griffin's problem was a mid-life crisis, a meltdown. It's possible. Somewhere I heard that it happens to men more often than to women. That too is possible. I've never had time to ponder about it and no personal experiences.

I have not thought of it as a midlife crisis. I see it as a reflection and inventory of his life up to this point, and then trying to assess where he sees himself in the next phase of his life. I find myself constantly doing pretty much what Griffin is doing and I just turned 57 yrs. old. I think its a time we are realizing or mortality. I don't want to let go of certain things, yet I know they have already let go of me. I look at my husband who is going to be 61 yrs. old and I see the differences in his appearance, his ability not to do the things that always came so easily, he takes little snoozes now, his need to be with our children and grandchildren and I see the peacefulness and genuine happiness in him. I then look in the mirror and notice my changes. He and I have talked about how we are aging, and we talk about what we have done to get to where we are today. We have some regrets about maybe not having the knowledge of how to invest over the years so as to be more financially set for our retirement, but then with the economy, stock market and the Madoff scam, we have seen family and friends who did lose thousands of dollars they had invested, and so I'm not so sure if anyone is where they would like to be for retirement today. But essentially I think at this age what Jack is going through is very normal.

Yes, I LOVE how Russo allowed us to see the Jack who loves his wife and daughter, who cared about the woman in the bar crying, who took the time to even consider Sunny Kim's feelings as a teen and even now. Jack is a good guy. He is no more or less dysfunctional as anyone who dealt with parents as he did. In chapter 6, I was finding hope for Jack and his family. I have often pondered if I did the things I wanted to do throughout the years, or did I do more of what made my husband and children happy, which in turn made me happy. Isn't that what life is all about? At 57 yrs. old Jack still has time to figure some things out, and so do I. I think that's what he is doing. I don't see it as a midlife crisis. He hasn't gone off the deep end and done anything rash to the point of destruction. On the contrary he has stayed a faithful son in spite of the mother he has. He is a doting father and loving husband, a stable professor, and good friend. He is just personally searching his soul and trying to come to terms with what Russo stated, "his legacy." At some point and time in everyone's life, I think we have our demons to deal with and dragons to slay.

I did feel sad for Jack when I read pg. 131, “The hug she gave him was different from the one she'd just given her mother. His assumed he was fine, maybe even indestructible, and he was glad if that’s how he seemed to her, though he had to admit that it puzzled him too."

I've seen times when a child or grandchild runs up to one parent or grandparent with open arms, squeals of glee and the tightest of hugs and then give the other that hug he mentions. I liked how Russo pointed this out, because it happens in real life more than we realize, and the one who does not receive the more receptive, loving hug must feel slighted just a bit. Not that Laura or any child does love one more than the other, but as he said, "it puzzled him."

"She assumed he was fine and maybe indestructible", wow that is loaded! It does give a parent a sense of relief when they sense their child doesn't have to think about worrying about them, but on the same token, I sense Laura did worry more about her mother not being fine, since she always worried about them divorcing. I would think she noticed the strain more on her mother. Griffin probably hid it better. Guys/fathers tend to do that.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 11, 2009, 02:28:57 PM

Babi, " I heartily agree with PEDLN. If you raise a 'happy, compassionate' child, you must be doing something right."

Oh I second or third this Pedln! If parents get the blame for the bad, we definitely must get the credit for the good! I look at my three adult children who are now parents themselves, and I feel nothing but love and pride. I for sure am going to credit myself and my wonderful husband in part for their compassion and happiness! ;D

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 11, 2009, 04:16:47 PM

I think the "plumb some" just about sums up my life in two words! :D

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 11, 2009, 04:56:13 PM

Another interesting choice of words on pg 106-"before his long time friend and agent had woken up dead". Ummm, how does one wake up dead??
Many of your comments on Griffin have made me re-think my attitude toward him. That is one of the things that make sharing books with others rewarding. Frequently things are pointed out that give me pause for thought.
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 11, 2009, 11:41:25 PM

Sally, I would never have thought I would finish this book, let alone see it the way I do now. I had given up on the first three capters and ready to throw the book across the room. I'm so glad I stuck it out and listened to the author's interviews and allowed my mind to remain open as I read the posts. The author has done a good job with showing us the emotions of Jack in chapters 5 & 6. I find myself relating to him and rooting for him. Imagine that!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 12, 2009, 08:26:53 AM

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"I think the "plumb some" just about sums up my life in two words!"

JANE. ;) Yes, indeedy!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 12, 2009, 09:26:42 AM

Smirt. I love this chapter, Chapter 5 itself is a SMIRT, and I have to admit I did not get Smirt at first, did you? Be honest. But I did get it and not with a couple of drinks, how clever. I think that somewhere Russo says that's a real sign or was inspired by a real sign somewhere.

Chapter 5 is a good one. It's symbolic of everything in the book.

"The problem seemed to be that you could put a couple thousand miles between yourself and your parents, and make clear to them that in doing so you meant to reject their values, but how did you distance yourself from your own inheritance?"

...and he acknowledges his quest for happiness, is a not finished piece of business and he hasn't rejected them entirely: "Joy maintained, for example, that he was inclined to locate happiness not in the present, as she did, but in some vague future."

Another somewhat startling thing about his parents was their constant renting and the fact that "how careless Griffin's parents were with other people's possessions. One professor returning from a European sabbatical would find that her china service for ten had become a service for seven…"

I passed right over that originally, another nail in the dysfunctional coffin, but now all those lists of "dilapidations" as the British call them seem to scream. These are people with no respect and no regard for anybody. They would not come near any house I owned, just imagine.

The professor who called from Italy specially to remind them to keep the water dripping, did you see the reaction from both parents? One called her a name and said "she doesn't even realize she's projecting, and the father said, "what she wanted to impress on us was that she's in Tuscany while we're suck in f…..Indiana."

Everything revolves around them, everything is an insult or an affront to them, what narcissistic people.

Er… The pipes burst, the floor was underwater and it would seem that Griffin's parents would have had such bills that their salaries would not cover them. Griffin's father even picked the locks of the safe cupboards!

If they didn't buy they wouldn't be saddled when the big break came on, the call to Sarah Lawrence (would they have owned a house then? Been happy?) but they can't save (no wonder)..

Now this one I did mark in the book originally:

"Indeed, they exhibited the professional humanist's utter cluelessness where money was concerned."

Is that true, do you think?

If it is, is it an affectation or something else?

A bungee cord secures the trunk?

And then the dismisiveness of Joy's parents:

"Boorish know-nothings… Proud of their ignorance."

And Griffin says, "Maybe you just know different things."

This entire subject is electric, to me. Have you not known people who were proud of their ignorance? I have. But maybe they just knew different things. Here I think Russo hits on the essence of snobbishness and...pride. I have known people dismissive of others and proud of their ignorance, they are maddening. What does that say about ME? What a double edged sword "judgment" is.

Griffin says his parents were now whispering to him that they'd been right all along. It's all in this chapter SMIRT and just as mixed up. I think the key to the entire book is here.

Are Harve and his wife any less dysfunctional, I wonder, than Griffin's parents? It seems that the decision not to and then to borrow money was a bad one for Griffin's marriage. Why does he think that Joy's contentment with "her" house the "true cause of his funk?"

Tommy's in this chapter, too, and so is the screen writing, and so is the new woman is in this chapter, in some ways Chapter 5 is an outline of the entire book. But what's the solution to the SMIRT he introduces here?

I like the way he's unfolding things, carefully like peeling back an onion, like solving the SMIRT, but only asking questions and making no conclusions. He makes the reader make the conclusions, do we have enough information to do that now? If we do, what are they?

IS Griffin as judgmental in his own way as his parents are? And is his fight NOT to be the real problem? Is he being true I guess I'm wondering, to himself?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 12, 2009, 11:38:41 AM

Ginny,

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I passed right over that originally, another nail in the dysfunctional coffin, but now all those lists of "dilapidations" as the British call them seem to scream. These are people with no respect and no regard for anybody. They would not come near any house I owned, just imagine.

This totally drove me bonkers when I read it. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I thought Russo may have gone a bit over the top with describing his parents to be so uncaring and careless of others properties. But, yes, I have met a few people in my life like these two ingrates. lol I just shake my head and ask how anyone could really NOT care about others possessions?

For me personally, chapters 5 & 6 have only begun to show Jack's emotions for others, which has finally gotten me to begin liking this story. As far as conclusions...we have a ways to go for that, but I fear Russo is setting us up to accept a happily ever after ending in these two chapters. It's like when you watch a movie, there is always some point in the movie you begin to shift positions because, the writer is attempting to try to get you, to accept the ending. Not that we always do regardless of how the writer concludes it. But then again, maybe its not about accepting anything, maybe its..... food for thought.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 13, 2009, 12:08:32 AM

It was a long day and I had no time for the computer until a little while ago.
But I must reply to your insightful posts.
Chapters 5 and 6 provide much sorely needed background information. Both are well written. Russo is a brilliant observer. I believe what the narrator tell us about the entertainment industry is based on Russo's own experience. It looks so glamorous, but isn't it all a bit shallow? Writers change agents and travel in different circles, lose touch, as Tommy did with Sid. And then Sid died.

Sally, we see that Griffin and Tommy shared a special "lingo", which seems flippant, even inappropriate at times, with all those (almost obligatory) f- words.
The phrase Tommy used of "Sid turning up dead" is nonsensical, of course, coarse even, but that's the way they talked! I believe Tommy was genuinely sorry about Sid's sudden death and Griffin, too, was shocked. Is a certain cynicism inevitable perhaps when screen writers spend their professional lives inventing stories and characters and put words in their mouths?

Ginny, regarding SCRIMT, I didn't pause trying to make sense of those strangely spaced non-words; I was too anxious to continue reading. And I had a hunch the narrator was having fun putting one over on the reader. That is typical of this book. Nothing is quite what it seems.

Was Griffin a snob like his parents? Good question.

I don't think the narrator ever describes the parents as snobs. That is implied and it is the reader's distinct impression. But snobs come in all varieties, some are merely imitators. TOften they are the nouveaux riches, called "arrivises. But I don' believe the elder Griffins d in that category.

They didn't imitate anyone. They did have an exaggerated sense of their own superiority, a totally unwarranted sense of entitledment, as the son says, in short, an arrogance beyond measure. They were good at what they did, of that there is no question, but in their personal lives and as parents they failed miserably. They were intellectual snobs, I believe.

So, was Griffin like them?

In a way he was. I believe he was condescending. The first sign is on pg. 4 where he says about Joy,
She was forever mixing metaphors, claiming something was "a tough line to hoe". Row to hoe? Line to walk? Her sisters, Jane and June, were even worse.
He felt he was superior.
Oho, I thought. Here it comes. That's the beginning.

Yes, I believe it's true that the senior Griffins were clueless about a great many things. They didn't want to be saddled with a house; they wanted to remain "flexible" if the next opportunity came. They were perennial renters, forever impermanent, and on a downward spiral. They were impulse buyers, the son tells us.
Bought things they didn't need. Things they put together, haphazardly. It's easy to imagine the result, and those scenes are funny. The desk where a drawer is opened and another one opens in sympathy, or a book case where one shelf is put in backwards. But why this deterioration? Father Griffin's accidents? And picking padlocks? WAs it the affairs they each had, confessed to and committed again?

Treating other people's possessions with disdain and, in the case of the burst pipes, deliberate negligence?
That's perverse. Were they secretly envious of the people who owned these houses and punished them with neglect, even theft? The hoped-for better jobs never materialized, the end was not pretty.

Imagine what it must have been like for the son to be called by State Police and asked to identify the body of his father, found in the passenger seat of his dilapidated car, the lid of the trunk held closed with a bungee cord?
And the implication that he had not been alone in the car? Raising the question whether the anonymous caller, who told police there was an abandoned car at a rest spot parking lot on the Massachusetts Turnpike, could have been the driver of the car? One of the father's students?
What about the strong possibility that the elder Griffin was on his way to the Cape - headed in a direction opposite to his son's home in Connecticut?

It's getting late again. More tomorrow. Thank you.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 13, 2009, 08:45:48 AM

SMIRT SPOILER!

I didn't get smirt until yesterday, and then I felt like I ought to have seen it sooner, but at least I didn't have to drink 2 martinis to get it. The gothic letters over the bar are a perfectly ordinary verse, but are divided in the middle of the words. run it all together in your mind, then divide it up into real words. Smirt is the last letter of one word and the first 4 of the next.

But that's not what it means to Griffin. He's thinking of it as some sort of derogatory word. (He gets bird smirt on his shirt.)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 13, 2009, 08:48:24 AM

Indeed, we've been given a lot of necessary past history in 5 and 6, and they also seem to be a set-up for whatever will come next.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 13, 2009, 09:55:27 AM

PatH....

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The gothic letters over the bar are a perfectly ordinary verse, but are divided in the middle of the words. run it all together in your mind, then divide it up into real words. Smirt is the last letter of one word and the first 4 of the next.

How clever of you to realize this. I gave it very little thought and just kept right on reading. I decided if it meant anything, Russo would get us there in the next few pages. Knowing the name of this chapter was "SMIRT" and no one was able to figure it out there at the bar, I decided to wait for it to reveal itself later, assuming Russo would indeed reveal it. ???

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: serenesheila on November 14, 2009, 03:34:55 PM

I have reached the end of the book. Overall, I dd not like this book. I finally found a little humor in Chapters 8-11. In fact, I finally laughed out loud in Chapter 9. Now, that I have finished the book, I am wondering what was the point?!

I do not plan to read another of this author's books. I saw the movie: "Nobody's Fool", and enjoyed it. Three times I tried to get into "Empire Falls", and gave up each time. IMO, Richard Russo is depressing. One of the characters I did like, was Sunny Kim. Yet, why was he even in the book? I expected Laura to realize Sunny was in love with her, and that she was with him. That didn't happen, of course. So what was the point of him being in the story.

For me, the ending was too pat. Why did Maurgarite call Harold? Why did Harold respond to her call? Makes no sense to me. Jack calling Joy makes no sense, to me, either. Why was it suddenly OK for him to initiate a recconciliation? Too pat, for me. After a year apart, I can understand they each were ready to end their separation. But, why?

At this point in my life, I want pleasure from my time reading. I want to read a book that leaves me enlightened, and happy. I feel as if I wasted my time with this one.

Sheila

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 14, 2009, 11:50:16 PM

Thank you for the latest posts.

Sheila's last post is a bit ahead of where we are now. At this point we're still discussing Chapters 5 and 6. My plan is to go ahead with the systematic review of chapter 7 next, which ends Part One of this book; then continue with Part Two.

It is customary to bring out the final thoughts at the end of a discussion - a practice that has worked well. The last few days of the discussion will be devoted to your evaluations and the overall conclusions (pro and con) we reach together. I really believe we cannot yet put our fingers on exactly what the point is. Can we please stay with this modus operandi? Thank you.

It's quite possible that the author did spot that oddly-spaced, gothic-lettered sign in a bar somewhere. But the narrator is preoccupied with his own worries and not overly intent on deciphering it. He doesn't even recognize Sunny Kim at the bar. He hasn't thought of him in years.

Laura, radiant and lovely as Kelsey's maid of honor, apologizes to her parents for Table Seventeen - the 'leftover table', Griffin guesses, correctly. "But you'll know Sunny Kim." Little Sunny, Joy asks in surprise.

And Griffin has a flashback to Laura's thirteenth birthday party in LA to which Sunny had been invited together with other class mates of Laura's. A serious, shy boy, he stood apart from the rest of the boisterous group and Griffin hovered about, feeling anxious and sorry for Sunny. Griffin's own first junior-high party had been a nightmare. The other kids all knew each other and seemed to have gone to such parties for years.
'Poor kid', Griffin remembered, he must be suffering just like that.

Interesting facts emerge in chapter 6 : the difference in social standing between Kelsey's parents and the Griffins, and the "standing apartness", if I can call it that, of the Korean Kims. "They lived on the other side of Shoreham Drive in a modest stucco ranch in a mixed-race neighborhood where single-level houses, wedged tightly together, were cheaper and sported carports rather than garages." (pg.104) Joy had offered to add Sunny to Laura's carpool, but Mrs. Kim politely declined. Sunny was the smartest kid in class but he had no real friends. He had been one of the last to leave the birthday party and, at the end, he solemnly shook Griffin's hand and said, "It was a wonderful party. You have a lovely home."

Kelsey and Sunny finished high school together and remained friends when they went to college. Sunny attended Stanford. But hit was Laura he had a crush on, not Kelsey, who is getting married and has invited him to the wedding. Now he sees Laura again. And she's in love with Andy.

Tomorrow let's take up Chapter 7, Halfway There, and start on Part Two next week, all right?
Happy Sunday.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 15, 2009, 08:47:03 AM

Straude-what page starts part two? I was unable to recheck the book from our library and my notes only have page numbers on them. I don't want to jump too far ahead. It's a little hard to divide this book up, isn't it? I have the same problem as Sheila (about wanting to post my opinions) because I read the book a month before our discussion began.

It was interesting that Griffin was seated at the "left-over" table. I thought it was symbolic of his whole life. His parents were always aspiring to be seated at a different table. Nothing was ever quite "good enough".

Do we start part 2 this coming week, or the following week?
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 15, 2009, 09:12:23 AM

Sally...in my hardcover copy from the Library, Chapter 7 starts on p. 108 and runs through 122.

Part Two: Coastal Maine (Second Wedding) begins on p. 125. (The intervening pages 123/124 are the unnumbered title page and verso for part two).

The Leftover table seems to be those who are not close to either the Bride or the Groom...ie, the Griffins...parents of the MOH and Sunny Kim, a friend of the MOH, and then Marguerite and Harold. She owns the flower shop in CA, is a friend of Kelsey's parents, now living in Jack and Joy's old house in CA.

I don't know what Jack expects of Joy(p. 110-111)...or why he doesn't speak up for himself if it "rankles" him that she states their current lives as they are...that he's a college English prof. Why does that rankle him? It is what he is. I think maybe Jack wanted the attention that would have been his, for a bit, if Joy had mentioned his screenwriting. Jack does go on and on in his mind about the questions he'd be asked and I guess not having to answer those is what is bugging him. Although he seems to project it on to Joy, maybe it's the fact that Sid is dead that makes Jack realize his connection to his screen writing days is now severed?

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 15, 2009, 09:16:30 AM

Hi, Sally. My understanding is that we talk about chapter 7 today, then start talking about part two tomorrow. Is that right, Traude? Chapter 7 is pages 108-122, and part two starts on page 125.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 15, 2009, 09:24:52 AM

Sally, I'm sorry for this oversight. Of course some of you don't have the book before you any longer! My apologies.

Part Two
Coastal Maine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Second Wedding)

begins on page 115 with Chapter 8, Bliss . The chapters are consecutively numbered.
Somewhat annoyingly (to me), minor though it is: only the uneven pages are numbered.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 15, 2009, 09:35:46 AM

Traude...In my hardcopy, Part Two: Coastal Maine (Second Wedding) begins on p. 125. (The intervening pages 123/124 are the unnumbered title page and verso for part two).

Quote

Part Two
Coastal Maine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Second Wedding)

begins on page 115 with Chapter 8, Bliss .

P. 115 is still part of my Chapter 7, as I said above in my post on the beginning of Chapter 7. I suspect my post got missed and Traude, PatH and I were all posting at the same time.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 15, 2009, 10:02:19 AM

Quote from: jane on November 15, 2009, 09:35:46 AM

I suspect my post got missed and Traude, PatH and I were all posting at the same time.
jane

Right, Jane. Your post wasn't there when I started writing, but showed up when I posted.

Evidently, not all books have the same paging.

Am I right that we just spend today on chapter 7, then move on?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 15, 2009, 10:41:00 AM

You make a good point, SHEILA. I am disturbed remembering how much Sunny Kim loves Laura and noticing her fear of hurting Andy but no fear of his hurting her. I’m afraid she is making a mistake. What is Sunny Kim's purpose in this story?

As to the separation…he would not call her. ‘He was waiting for Joy to
blink’ and this time she wasn’t going to. I can well understand she was
exhausted with trying to make up for his chronic unhappiness; that it
was a relief not to have to deal with it any longer.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 15, 2009, 05:02:00 PM

Your posts are much appreciated. Thank you.
Forgive me, I had no idea that not all hard covers were printed alike. But that small inconvenience need not deter us because the line of demarcation is really between Parts One and Two. So let's forge ahead with Chapter 7 and, when we're finished, continue with Bliss., which opens Part Two.

Be prepared for some surprises in In Chapter 7. Here, the reader becomes a virtual guest at Kelsey's wedding - from the perspective of the "leftovers" on Table Seventeen. Eight "asorted" guests are seated there away from the "action", at the other end of the tent. "Misfits" Griffin calls them.
The other sixteen tables seat twelve guests each.
More surprises are in store for Griffin: Right there's the couple he had briefly met at the bar the evening before: Marguerite and her ex-husband, Harold. There are two British teachers from Norwich in East Anglia, where Kelsey was enrolled at some time, and an elderly man with obvious health problems, the groom's 6th grade math teacher, it turns out. A motley crew.

The characterization of the appearance of this poor man, while no doubt accurate, struck me as - well - a little too clinical. Am I wrong to feel that way?

An aside. I have traveled back and forth to Europe many times over the years, alone; with and without my late husband; with and without my children when small and when they were adults. "Leftover" tables are found everywhere, they're usually the least desirable, close to the kitchen or he rest rooms. But there's no reason to accept such an "assignment", not even if there's a language barrier. In any such case, anywhere and in any language, one should protest on principle.

Sunny saves the day. He proposes a toast specifically for table seventeen

Here stop and spend a social hour in harmless mirth and fun," he intond, grinning for some reason at Griffin and then Marguerite.
Let friendship reign. Be just and kind and evil speak of none.

"What an odd toast," Joy said. "Do you suppose it's Korean?"
"I don't think so," Griffin answered. It felt not only familiar but recently so. He could feel the dim memory pooling toward the front of his brain (eloquent phrase, isn't it?). Just then his cell phone vibrated; the memory gone.

It was mother. Griffin senses an urgency in her voice, her concerns the same, where will he scatter the ashes. On impulse Griffin asks about the Brownings and is astonished to hear a version very different from his own memory. His mother continues to refer to Peter as "Steven" and Griffin wonders afterwards whether she is "on track". He thinks, of course assisted-living facilities were table seventenn for the elderly, where virtual strangers were thrust into proximity by neither affection nor blood nor common interest, only by circumstances and declining health. No wonder she was going batty. With no one to say otherwise, she seemed to to be revisioning her life so as to please herself. He didn't object. Except that she seemed to be revisioning his as well and expecting him to sign off on it.

I agree, it's sad to imagine.
One of our long-time f2f book group members lives in such a facility and we have carpooled to her first-floor home several times for meetings; she no longer drives. She searched long and hard for the "right" place and is quite happy there. I've driven up by myself to visit her and had meals in three different eateries on site. I've have also attended dinner and promotional tours.
To me, it's almost like a cocoon. Self-sufficient, it has everything : grocery store, hair salon, spa, doctors, pharmacy, hobby room, computerr room, a bank, all kinds of groups, including two or three book groups, large library, activitiess galore, lecures bus trips into Boston, meeting room, movies, you name it. No reason to leave the buildings in any season. A save haven, sure enough, a colony for the elderly. My friend tried to convince me to move. I have no such plan.

There's a ray of hope at the end of this chapter - but can the fissure be healed?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 15, 2009, 10:36:01 PM

So in chapter 7 we get Griffin's mother's version of the summer with the summer with the Brownings. Wow! What a difference! Who do we believe? Neither of them is anything like a reliable witness. Of course they would each see the emotional content differently, but the glaring factual differences? Where they ate dinner that last night, who taught Griffin to bodysurf, whether or not his mother spent that last night comforting him, whether the Brownings wrote later, etc.--how do we sort that out?

Griffin's mother would "...get just enough details right to make you doubt your own memory, but in the end her stories never tracked." Griffin's side of the story is told as an explanation of the story he wrote during the writers' strike, so we're not sure how much is what his inner thoughts are telling us now and how much is the re-worked version of the story.

I hope we'll get this sorted out by the end, but I suspect not.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 15, 2009, 11:10:52 PM

This chapter was a bit frustrating to say the least. It was all over the place. So Sunny Kim gives the toast and reveals what the SMIRT saying meant. Here stop and spend a social hour in harmless mirth and fun," Let friendship reign. Be just and kind and evil speak of none. It really didn't have a whole lot of significance to the story did it? Why did Russo throw this in? Did he see it in a bar somewhere, liked it, so just added it? I read he had a habit of doing such a thing.

Okey dokey....So Jack's mother gives us the indication his memory could be as Russo hinted, a bit untrustworthy, and yet so it seems, hers is also. But I thought it really weird that she would remember how he felt about the Brownings, mention Peter and his sister dying, Peter wrote Jack but he never answered them, they got Christmas cards for a couple of years, then the mother wrote when Peter and his sister died. And then to top it off this really threw me for a loop,

pg. 167 "Why would you remember all of this, Mom?" "Why wouldn't I remember things?" "It's unlike you. Especially people like the Brownings. You and Dad looked down your noses at them." He expected her to deny this accusation, but she didn't, which meant she either hadn't really heard it or preferred not to. Maddening, the way she blithely shopped among his conversational offerings, as if she were at a fruit bin looking for an unbruised pear. "Wait till you're my age and memory is all you have." It was on the tip of his toungue to say that, based on this conversation, he wasn't sure she had even that. "Happy memories in particular you hold on to." "Well, it wasn't unhappy. The wheels hadn't come off yet for your father and me. He hadn't started the cheating yet." "Of course he had. You both had." "Not really nasty, vindictive stuff. We were still in love, despite everything." "That's how you remember it?" "That's how it was." pg. 169 "I think she's losing her mind. She's rewriting history. Inventing memories."............. Was it possible his mother was right, that Peter Browning had been killed in Viet Nam? Griffin felt something like a panic rise at the possibility, a physical sensation at the back of his throat. But really, it was highly unlikely, he told himself. pg. 170 Was it really possible that she remembered sitting up with him all night in that cottage trying to comfort him? When had she ever done anything like that? And they definitely hadn't gon to the Blue Martini that night. What she was remembering was that that's where she and his father had planned to go before he screwed things up. But asthma for Peter's sister sounded right, and he supposed she might have died. But had Peter actually written to him, as his mother claimed? That was how it went with all her recollections. She'd get just enough details right to make you doubt your own memory, but in the end her stories never tracked. They played out like his still-unread student story, the one now with missing pages."

This entire dialogue made me begin to question the validity of Griffin's memories in the prior chapters. I sense he and his mother have their own memories of how they saw things. Did Griffin block out parts he didn't want to deal with?

Then after all of this mumble jumble ..............."Oh-oh! We're half way there!" "Oh-oh Livin on a prayer!" Halfway there. Was this what it came down to, Griffin wondered, his own fist now pumping in the solidarity with those younger than he. Was this the pebble in his shoe these last long months, the desire to be, once again, just halfway there? Later, back at the B and B, he and Joy made love. It had been awhile...

So...........does all of this bring things into perspective? Is he struggling with aging, his own mortality? And the love making, why now? Were he and Joy caught up in the festivities and excitement of the night? Is the love making a semblance of hope for their marriage?

pg. 175 "It took Griffin's breath away to think that in the very moment of her great happiness, his daughter had remembered Sunny Kim and come to fetch him into the festivities. And he felt certain that he'd never in his entire life done anything so fine."

Wow! I just sat and thought about this last sentence and felt sad for Giffin, because he just never sees what is right in front of his face. He indeed did the same thing for Sunny Kim when he was a teen.

This chapter was loaded with so much and Russo crammed it all into one chapter, yet we are giving one day to discuss it. I'm not so sure we will be putting it behind us.

But....Halfway there we are, so on to...... Part Two Coastal Maine (Second Wedding)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 16, 2009, 12:03:46 AM

Traude says, of the groom's 6th grade math teacher: "The characterization of the appearance of this poor man, while no doubt accurate, struck me as - well - a little too clinical".

He's kind of a stock figure, but he raises some interesting points. Griffin won't get up to dance with his wife until he sees that he isn't leaving Sunny alone. But he doesn't even think about the teacher. Of course the teacher wouldn't dance, but although Griffin looks back in concern later to see if the teacher is OK, he doesn't think of even saying something like "I hope you don't mind if we go off to dance". It's symbolic of how people react to handicaps. Because someone is less than whole in some aspect, they are treated as not real. The man has shown he can talk, but no one bothers to figure out where he is intellectually or emotionally.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 16, 2009, 12:55:54 AM

About being at table 17: Traude, you're right that most of the time one should actively resist, but one place where there is no room for negotiation is the prearranged tables of a wedding reception.

Your description of your friend's assisted living facility hits home: "To me, it's almost like a cocoon." Right on! That's exactly why I wouldn't want to be there, even though it looks like it has everything I would want.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 16, 2009, 08:19:33 AM

Gee these are good posts. They are making me appreciate Russo even more, believe it or not. But I think this one got away from him.

Pedln mentioned Chapter 7 is titled Halfway There. We appear to be on a journey, figuratively and literally.

"Halfway there. Was this what it came down to, Griffin wondered, his own fist now pumping in solidarity with those younger than he. Was this the pebble in his shoe these last long months, the desire to be, once again, just halfway there?"

If this is not a mid life crisis I hope never to see one. I wonder what he'd do with that second chance? He's going to try but this time it won't be the baggage in the trunk that defeats him, it will be himself.

Table 17, wonderful point, Sally. What did he expect? I still have problems figuring out why he went in the first place, tho you've all explained it. Reading Joy's explanation did not help me either. Apparently the bride knew where he belonged, even if he did not. Great point PatH on the non speaking to the old teacher, I missed that one.

I loved SMIRT , Bella, it's so...evocative of what's missing in Jack's life. Truly to me it's one of the (along with the father in the trunk) more memorable things about the book.

Here stop and spend a social hour in harmless mirth and fun, Let friendship reign. Be just and kind and evil speak of none.
I personally think it's charming and wish I knew the provenance, because it's got to have one, and how it ended up in a bar, (in some interview Russo reveals it IS a saying and names the bar) but.....

But why would Sunny propose this as a toast at a wedding? To Table 17? (Big wedding). Isn't it a bit odd for a wedding? Especially when probably 90 percent of the room would not know what it meant? He's "grinning" at Jack and Marguerite. What did you make of that?

Jack's not doing the meaning of the verse, it's everything he lacks.

I find myself wondering, too, Babi and Sheila, why some of these characters are here in the book, too, like Sunny. What's his significance? I am looking forward to laughing in Chapter 9.

Joy speaks for Griffin at the table and he found himself thinking how different it would've been if he were the one giving the synopsis. I find myself wondering how it would have been different. I wish he had been able to give HIS version, what do you think it would be?

But then all of his reminiscences upon which he's built his whole life are different. Is this why Russo introduces Mom's different version of "Steven/ Peter" at the beach? To show us he's not dealing with reality?

Griffin, having heard of the death of Sid, says, "the last dangling thread neatly snipped. He was now only one thing, a professor of English at a very good liberal arts college, whereas before he'd been two."

So much for the loss of Sid. Like his parents, what it MEANS is something about his own status.

And then he feels as if Joy's telling of "who they were" makes it seem she outranks him, tho he knows she has not meant it that way at all. Buy why does it matter, as Traude said, in this table of strangers?

Jane mentioned "I don't know what Jack expects of Joy," I don't, either, but it's something validating which he didn't get. He's got nothing within himself, he's what he used to be now and i guess he should get used to it (you can see the fling coming here, right? In the Mid Life Crisis) as he's about to lose even more of his past which seems to be all he's got as a person. But were they correct, and is his entire being built on truth or something else?

It seems one thing he's inherited from his mother is his need to BE something or somebody and those external things that he's relied upon are failing him. Sid and his screenwriting career just became ancient history. His father's in the trunk, and Mom seems a bit gaga. Or is she?

"We exchanged addresses before we left, don't you remember? Steven wanted to keep in touch. he wrote you several letters, but you refused to write back. We got Christmas cards for a couple of years. The mother wrote when the little girl died and then late about Steven. You were gone by then."

"The mother" who like the "little girl" doesn't have a name, sent Christmas cards and "Steven" wanted to keep in touch but Griffin refused to write back?

Why would his mother make up something like that?

When she's gone will he reinvent himself?

I truly think this is intended as Every man's Journey. I also think it MAY have gotten away from Russo.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 16, 2009, 08:51:34 AM

That telephone conversation about the Brownings was the first inkling I
had that the 'narrators' memory might not be entirely right. I don't doubt that is how he remembers it. Frankly, of the two of them, I think Mom would be most likely to alter the facts somewhat. In modern political terms, put a different 'spin' on them.

Maybe the 'smirt' toast was unnecessary, but I liked it. Bits are often
added to a story simply because they entertain and set a mood. Actually, I find most of the sex scenes popular in modern writing to be wholly unnecessary to the story. They are in there because so many people are entertained by them.

Since you brought up the question, GINNY, I think the smirt quote was
most appropriate for 'table seventeen'. They were on the edges of the festivities, but they could still enjoy 'a social hour in harmless mirth and fun'. IMO, Sunny Kim is one of the most likeable people in the book. His loss of Laura definitely made me sad.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 16, 2009, 08:53:36 AM

I don't think you can believe Jack's mother; but can we believe Jack? Memories are like stories that get passed around from person to person. Each individual focuses (and perhaps embellishes) the part of the story that diretly affects them. Some aspects of the story get buried beccause they are too uncomfortable or they do not affect us directly.

Page 119...Griffin suspected that what Joy meant when she said he worried too much was that he had too little faith and sometimes got important things wrong as a result.

Ummm--Could the "leftover" table be symbolic of how Griffin feels about his life? Neither he, nor his parents felt like they were seated where they belonged.
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 16, 2009, 10:09:56 AM

Lots of great posts and things to think about this morning.

Quote

Who do we believe? Neither of them is anything like a reliable witness.

I just can't believe a word out of "mother's" mouth. That woman is toxic ...to everyone she comes into contact with, it seems to me...and most of all to her son. I haven't seen a reason, yet, to doubt Jack's version of what happened during his childhood, so I continue to believe his version of things.

Quote

"To me, it's almost like a cocoon."

Yes...and, having worked at jobs that were very stressful my husband and I love our home being a cocoon. It's a place to be free of stress and demands of the world. I think I'll soon be at a place in my life, when my husband is gone and/or our health fails, that what has been described is exactly what I want. I'm glad they exist.

Quote

Isn't it a bit odd for a wedding? Especially when probably 90 percent of the room would not know what it meant? He's "grinning" at Jack and Marguerite. What did you make of that?

Yes, probably...but I think Sunny is making a little "inside joke" for the benefit of the "leftovers at table 17!" Wedding toasts and comments are often about "inside" things of the couple that others know little/nothing about. This was one for those at table 17.

Quote

To show us he's not dealing with reality?

Again, I think Jack is dealing with reality as he experienced it. Yes, all of us have our version of events which involved others, but his version is no less reliable that anyone else's who was there and who is honest about it. As I've said, his mother's version doesn't count for me. I'd love to know Peter's version. He, I'd probably trust, too.

Quote

It seems one thing he's inherited from his mother is his need to BE something or somebody and those external things that he's relied upon are failing him.

I'm afraid he has inherited the tendency to live for the future. Somehow everyone, according to the "parents" everything was going to be better somewhere in the future...once they got those Ivy League Chairmanship offers, the buying of a place on the Cape, escaping the MidF......West, etc. I've known people who lived in the past...and now we've seen people who live in the future, but don't apparently do what it takes to actually get what they dream about. For the "parents" that would be what it takes in academia. Publish the great American novel, do research that makes a mark in the academic world, etc. I don't think "William and Mary" were capable of that...it would be too much work. I suspect their names reflect academic quality that neither one alone or together had.

I am really enjoying this discussion of this book!

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 16, 2009, 11:04:09 AM

Quote

IMO, Sunny Kim is one of the most likeable people in the book. His loss of Laura definitely made me sad.

I agree with your assessment of Sunny, Babi, but like many here I wonder about WHY he is a character. What’s his purpose? Perhaps it is to show us what a lovely person Laura is, how compassionate. (And of course, that reflects positively on Jack.)

And Sunny’s background gives us some clues to Jack. Poor Jack, at Laura’s party, can empathize with Sunny, having endured misery at a party when he was a young teen. Of course he didn’t know anyone there. His parents had to move every year and he never had a chance to make friends.

The adult Sunny is blossoming into a very likable man. A good sense of humor – he enjoyed making that insider toast, and likes to tease a bit when he describes his DC status – lawyer and lobbyist. And he’s the take charge guy at table 17 – why don’t we all tell a bit about ourselves – and everyone is part of the party.

I really like the way Russo talks about the characters, even the minor ones. Maybe it’s the way he uses dialog. We have to make our own judgements from what we hear them say.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 16, 2009, 12:58:47 PM

pedln,

Quote

And Sunny’s background gives us some clues to Jack.

I found myself finally feeling some empathy for Jack after reading how he felt about Sunny Kim as a teen at the party. It was the first time they brought out Jack's compassion for another person. It made Jack vulnerable. I also like how he seemed to approve of Sunny's infatuation for his daughter Laura, and even felt like maybe Laura would reciprocate.

I know some of you have your reasons for not liking the mother, and refuse to give her memories any credence, but I have to tell you that I found her a bit believable here. Not entirely, but then I don't feel Jack's memories are entirely believable either. Why would she make up Christmas cards, a letter from Mrs. Browning telling of the death of her son and daughter? When she mentions she sat up and comforted Jack that night, I tend to believe she did, and very possibly Jack chose not to remember that, choosing to rewrite it his own way. I know for certan there are memories my Mom and siblings shared with me many years later that I had completely either forgot or blocked out.

No, Ginny, indeed I did not see or feel a mid life crisis, nor did I see the affair with Margaritte coming. It made absolutely NO SENSE to me what so ever. When he and Joy made love that night if anything I saw hope for a reconnection between the two of them. I am a hopeless romantic, and so alll my bets were on the two of them deciding to work on their marriage at that point.

I remember listening to Russo talking about the quote in the bar and how when he travels and finds different little things like that he always uses them in his books. I think its neat, and I suppose if you really want to you can fit it into the toast from Sunny. Not so sure I thought much of it though.

As for what Jack was expecting when Joy introduced him, I think like anyone else, you hope to hear that person say some really nice things along with your accomplishments. I know for me if I were introducing my husband to a group of people for the first time I would pay him the highest regards, because I am so very proud of him. I was a bit surprised how Joy failed to do that. It's very easy for us to dislike Jack and point out all his faults, but I think he is entitled to feel a little sting here. The Sunny at the table was surely far from the shy Sunny described earlier. Again, a bit too drastic for me to believe.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 16, 2009, 09:37:53 PM

Marvelous posts. Thank you all. I am late getting to them; I have been preparing for my California daughter's visit next Sunday. Let me move right along.

Obviously we are not yet done with Chapter 7. Even a deceptively "easy" book without much of a plot can be demanding, especially when the presumed present - and the logical progression of the narrative - is repeatedly interrupted by lengthy flashbacks focusing on the past of different characters and interspersed with reflections on the changes in slociety.

No doubt the narrator is extremely self-involved; so, of course, is the mother. We can take it for granted that the memories ofmother and son are subjective regarding the two weeks with the Brownings.

But is it really conceivable that this haughty woman, who made it clear from the outset that they were University professors not ordinary teachers, would have bothered to exchange Christmas cards with them?

Her rudenessmakes me gag. Does she ever call her son by name? I don't think so. She tracks him down on the road with "Where are you?" without even a "hi". Later we learn that she had hectored Joy before she got ahold of Jack.

Her language is not as polished or accurate as one would ] expect from a professor of English:
On pg. 117 she says, in re scattering the ashes,

"I'd feel better if the Cape ~~was~~ between us ..."

The grammatically correct verb form, I believe, is 'if the Cape WERE, between us; the subjunctive mood. The narrator also is not consistent with "a couple ... weeks" Sometimes there IS the necessary "of", but not in all instances. How could this happen to a professional writer? I wonder.

PatH, "stock figure" is a very apt term for the stroke victim. Cou ld there be other stock figures? What about Harold, the consummate heel ?

Was it Pedln or Babi or both who commented on the "Half-Way There" and the energetic pumping of arms. (I knew who Bon Jovi is but am not familiar with any of his songs.)

What do the words mean to Griffin? Half-way where?
He thinks of being "half" because, I believe, he has never fully given up his life in LA, or totally let go.
Mentally he's already on his way, and he relishes it.

Ginny, I don't know in what interview Russo said where he saw the sign. Bellamarie, you lfurnished several links, could you put your finger on it?

The narrator had spotted it at the bar of the Old Cape Lounge the evening before Kelsey's wedding. He took in the patrons at the bar, the man and woman - the woman asking him about the meaning of the sign, and a well-dressed young Asian man who looked vaguely familiar - Sunny. They all looked at the sign and smiled.

Unexpectedly they found themselves together at table 17; the woman's face lit up immediately. When Sunny suggested they introduce themselves to break the ice, she announced ["We are Marguerite and]Harold". She owned a flower shop in the San Fernando Valley, lived around the corner from the Apples, and Kelsey called her "Aunt Rita". Invited to the wedding, she had contacted ex-husband ,harold, who lived in Boston ("Quincy", he corrected), and she came up a few days early. They had been quite romantic.
She turned to Harold when she said this, clearly hoping he wouldn't correct her.
"Yeah, well, " said he, "sex was never the problem."

"I bet I know what was," Joy murmured, loud enough for Griffin, on her left, to hear and possibly Sunny, on he right, too, though he gave no sign of it.

Do you understand what that might have been ? I don't have a clue. Is it worth worrying about?[/b]

"Right around the corner" was the clue. It didn't take long to find out that Marguerite had bought the Griffins' house. They had not met because the Griffins moved before the closing.

Joy's turn is next. She recounts their present lives and heir jobs, but Griffin is getting annoyed. Hmmmmm
Is he jealous of his own wife and her position ? Afraid that the table mates will think she outranks him? But doesn't HE have tenure and she does not? He chides himself for his thoughts; they are more befitting his mother. Ah,clearly an inherited trait.

Is it possible this relentless drive for position is a sign of insecurity in both the son and the mother?
It's an intriguing question.

But are there too many coincidences ? Is what there is of a plot getting muddled? Over the top?

Was it strictly necessary to make the two Liverpudlian teachers Lesbian? "Their accents nearly impenetrable; their spirits extraordinarily high..."

"Animal House", Griffin whispered to Joy, who, no surprise, didn't get the reference. Though she enjoyed movies, even their most iconic moments left no lasting impression on her, and she'd always considered his own abiity to quote such scenes verbatim as rather perverse."
pg. 112

What a singularly callous, unkind remark.

As Joy pulled Griffin toward the dance floor, I believe that Griffin, in his own anxious way, was concerned about the stroke victim after Laura rushed over and took Sunny by the arm. When Griffin next looked over, table 17 was empty. The Apples had taken Kelsey's old teacher to their side of the tent.

More to come

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 16, 2009, 10:25:34 PM

As you can see, I'm still behind, though Bellamarie's # 149 IS in fact the answer to a question I just asked. Thank you.

Babi, I agree. An overwhelming sadness in fact.

Pedln and Ginny, re the sign and the grin. I haven't been clear enough in my preceding post. Let me try again.
Jack, Marguerite, Harold and Sunny were at the bar the vening before; they saw the sign; Marguerite asked what it meant; Jack wasn't too interested; Sunny overheard; he and Jack exchanged smiles.

But Jack forgot it at once. He did not recognize Sunny, though Sunny had recognized Jack we learn later.

When Sunny raises the toast, Jack doesn't understand why Sunny is grinning at him and at Marguerite. He does have the perception of a recent memory, but it vanishes at once when mother calls.
In fact, only after their love-making, when Joy has dropped off to sleep, does Jack finally remember Sunny's "strange toast" and makes the connection. He laughs so hard that Joy wakes up but he tells her to get back to sleep. Check the last few paragraphs of Chapter 7.

Pedln, excellent thoughts and questions.
Why was Sunny put in this book ? Why indeed.
Are there other stock figures?
What is Russo really after?

We are getting closer, though, I can feel it "in me bones" as the cockneys say.

Sally, indeed, a great deal is symbolic.

More tomorrow.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 16, 2009, 11:58:49 PM

Traude,

Quote

But is it really conceivable that this haughty woman, who made it clear from the outset that they were University professors not ordinary teachers, would have bothered to exchange Christmas cards with them?

pg. 166-167 "We exchanged addresses before we left, don't you remember? Steven wanted to keep in touch. He wrote you several letters, but you refused to write back. We got Christmas cards for a couple of years. The mother wrote when the little girl died, and then later about Steven."

I agree, I don't think Jack's mother would have sent Christmas cards, that would be beneath her snobby character. This indicates Mrs. Browning is the one who made the effort to keep in touch. I totally agree with everyone, that his mother was a despicable person, and I found nothing about her to like, but, in saying this, I do tend to believe her on this. I think its fair to say we have established neither Jack nor his mother's memories should be completely believed. I see her calling Peter, Steven is just another way of Russo showing she was so disinterested in the family, she didn't care to even make the effort to know his name or correct herself, when Jack points out it is Peter.

I have to laugh when you mention how she can't say Hi. I have a sister exactly like this. It rankles me every time. lol

I LOVE Bon Jovi, my daughter played "Livin On A Prayer" over and over and over again when she was a teen. He is still gorgeous! :-[

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 17, 2009, 07:03:23 AM

Pedln and Ginny, re the sign and the grin. I haven't been clear enough in my preceding post. Let me try again.
Jack, Marguerite, Harold and Sunny were at the bar the vening before; they saw the sign; Marguerite asked what it meant; Jack wasn't too interested; Sunny overheard; he and Jack exchanged smiles.

But Jack forgot it at once. He did not recognize Sunny, though Sunny had recognized Jack we learn later.

When Sunny raises the toast, Jack doesn't understand why Sunny is grinning at him and at Marguerite. He does have the perception of a recent memory, but it vanishes at once when mother calls.
In fact, only after their love-making, when Joy has dropped off to sleep, does Jack finally remember Sunny's "strange toast" and makes the connection. He laughs so hard that Joy wakes up but he tells her to get back to sleep. Check the last few paragraphs of Chapter 7.

Ok I've now read the last few paragraphs of Chapter 7 again. We've got lesbians, he recognizes the quote...er....so? Sunny did recognize him, why is Sunny grinning at him and Marguerite? Does Sunny have ESP? Or can he foretell the future? That's his way of gently happily saying I saw you in the bar? I saw you and you did not recognize me? What? Gosh I'm thick today.

He recognized Jack in the bar, is that it? So at a wedding he makes this toast to that table?

This incident really is bizarre, I'm having trouble understanding Sunny here, can somebody straighten me out?

Unlike some of us here I think people come to a wedding to fete the bride and groom, not give insider toasts that nobody including those toasted have a clue about.

How close was Sunny to Jack in that bar? Did he know Jack did not know what the sign meant? Must not have? Did he hear their conversation?

This scene, to me, is bizarre.

~~I'll go find the reference in the interview for you Traude.~~ Spoke too soon, cannot find it and don't have a lot of time to look . Have found one in CA, but the one I'm thinking of is in New England, he gave the name and town, too, doggone it why did I not save that? Maybe he's got an email and we can ask that way. Again.

Oh well I did find Smirt, it's an actual word:

Urban Dictionary: Smirt: from http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=smirt

A word used to describe people who flirt while they smoke outside their office buildings or pubs.

a person who looks dorkish ; someone who lacks charisma, funny looking ; strange looking

Good point on the Subjunctive and the English professor. Maybe she was not good enough for the Mid f'ing west after all, wouldn't that be ironic, tho.

Book is full if irony, too.

What, in the opinion of those of you who do not see this as a mid life crisis, does a middle aged man's mid life crisis look like? What are the symptoms?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 17, 2009, 09:00:30 AM

Ah, I was going to comment on Traude's question about the Christmas cards, but I see Bellamarie has said pretty much what I was going to say. I'm sure the Brownings must have felt sorry for that little boy they met that summer and tried to keep in touch for his sake.
I think Sunny Jim was smiling at Jack and Marguerite simply because
they had been in the bar and saw that puzzle, too. Sunny had solved it,
and now was using it as a toast for those at the table, encouraging them
to enjoy the occasion. As simple as that.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 17, 2009, 09:18:05 AM

Could be, Babi. I must not go to as many weddings as you all do, have never heard one like that, but Russo was himself (as I reread all these interviews) seated at a table 17, and has just married off two daughters so I guess he's been to more than I have.

What makes you all think they exchanged Christmas cards? That the mother wrote back? She doesn't say that and I don't think she did. "We got Christmas cards from them for a couple of years."

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 17, 2009, 09:30:45 AM

Ginny if you read my post #152, you will see that the mother did NOT necessarily reciprocate and send Christmas cards back, nor do I get the impression she cared to answer any of the Brownings letters nor did Jack. Like Babi stated, I too feel Mrs. Browning made the effort because she took a liking to Jack.

Ginny,

Quote

What, in the opinion of those of you who do not see this as a mid life crisis, does a middle aged man's mid life crisis look like? What are the symptoms?

I think the reason I don't see this as a mid life crisis is because I don't see a crisis. I see a mid life man trying to deal with his legacy as Russo said in his interview. He stated Jack is like many people who have baggage, and is trying to figure it all out and where it all fits in. For me, a mid life crisis is when someone acts irrational and destructive, and I don't see Jack's behavior as such. I see him just the opposite, as Russo said, trying to figure out his life, where he's headed, sorting out all the baggage of his childhood and parents, reevaluating his marriage, career, etc. Even having the short affair does not seem like a part of a crisis. He and Joy have obviously had some problems they have not dealt with, causing a strained relationship. Many people turn to someone else for comfort or just attention in situations like this. I certainly would not see myself having an affair, only to make matters worse, but then Joy had betrayed him with feelings for Tommy long before this affair with Margarette. The crying in the shower and the crying in the car, Joy was living a lie and keeping her and Tommy's feelings a secret all this time, or so she thought. Do you suppose Jack sensed it way before she told him the truth? (One more person in his life has betrayed him)I'm not blaming or excusing either of them for where their marriage is, we know it takes two to make or break a marriage, but do you think its possible once it was out in the open Jack turned to Margarette out of revenge? I have seen many spouses react just as Jack did here.

pg. 182 "Just this quickly last night's magic, the sense of well-being it had engendered, evaporated."
So much for my romantic reunion. lol

On to chapter 8 Bliss
Jack and Joy discussing Tommy looking for his birth mother and Jack responds, pg 192 "Why, for Christ sake?" he'd ask him one drunken night, hoping to diminish his friend's need for something that was bound to disappoint him. "Don't you realize how fortunate you are?" "Jack," Joy cautioning him. "No, look at the man." Griffin appealed directly to her here. "He has no baggage. He moves about the world a free man. He possesses large, untapped reserves of the very ignorance that bliss was intended to reward."

Isn't this so true? Don't we all look at others who we feel has less or no baggage then us, and think how Blissful their life must be? Only to find, they have as much or even more than us in truth. This is where Jack begins to really start opening up about his feelings about parents, and what his losses were to him and his expectations of what parents should be to their child. Obviously feeling, his parents fell short on every level.

Is ignorance bliss? I'm not so sure I believe that little addage. I have been ignorant in many areas of life and now at the age of 57 I am disappointed in not having the knowledge so as to have helped me make different and wiser decisions. Sure others have told me I am fortunate to have lived in the ignorance of things, but it sure seems at times I would have preferred the knowledge. Sometimes I wonder if its our parents way of protecting us, yet once we do learn years later, we must deal with the knowing, and we don't have the tenacity to ask our parents the questions, or possibly they are no longer with us to even consider asking. So we deal with it the best we can. In others eyes we appear to live in "bliss."

This chapter is revealing so much its hard to take it all in.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 17, 2009, 09:36:19 AM

I can't image "mother" sending cards to anyone who wasn't at a tenured professor or chair level at any place but one of the Ivy League schools. The Griffins may have indeed received cards from the Brownings, but I suspect it was a one way street.

And, we don't know that Jack didn't answer Peter. Maybe he did and "dear ol' Ma" didn't know it and Jack hasn't recalled it. If we're to assume Jack's not recalled other things, then I have to give him that he did write back to Peter once or twice, but that memory has also gotten lost.

I think the toast by Sunny was not for the entire assembled crowd at the wedding. I think it was for the table 17 group alone. With the noise and confusion and all of a large wedding reception, nobody at any other table would have necessarily have noticed or cared about Table 17. :)

As Bellamarie has said, I don't see a "crisis" either. I see a 57 yr old man who's alone in a place where he spent his entire childhood summers, apparently, and his honeymoon. Without someone along to initiate a conversation, etc., he's reminiscing about all his connections to Cape Cod and then the connections those take to other events in his life with Joy. Maybe I'm the odd one, [which won't be the first time ;) ] but when I'm driving alone to or near an area/city/location, I often think back over my life in a place where I was many years before and of the people I knew there and things that happened to me there. I think that's what Jack is doing.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 17, 2009, 09:45:01 AM

from bellamarie

Quote

Isn't this so true? Don't we all look at others who we feel has less or no baggage then us, and think how Blissful their life must be? Only to find, they have as much or even more than us in truth.

AMEN!

You've said what I feel, too, very well in your post above about Jack, Joy, their marriage and their problems.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 17, 2009, 12:14:40 PM

All your posts have been most interesting! Straude, I feel that Jack's mother's incorrect useage of the verb "was/were" was probably a grammatical error on the part of Russo and/or his proof reader. I have read many books that have either used words incorrectly, or misspelled them.
Straude-regarding Joy's comment on Harold and Marguerite, I think Joy was referring to Harold being an insensitive jerk who was totally disrespectful of Marguerite's feelings. I found him most unlikeable! Joy understood what the problem with their marriage was because she felt that way about her own.
Jane-I agree with you about the exchange of Christmas cards. I don't think Jack's mother would send cards to anyone, and she certainly wouldn't remember any cards sent to her by "insignificant" people.
Babi and Jane-I agree with you about the toast. I think it was an "inside" joke for Jack. I got the impression that the toast was a private one, just for their table.

Jack's parents were vitriolic and destructive. This was evident in their personal relationships with people and their
abuse of the homes they lived him. Weren't they just awful??

Jack is facing a crisis in his life that has nothing to do with him being in "mid-life". It's a storm that has been brewing for some time.

Got to go now and do some mundane chores, but I shall ponder this book as I work.
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 17, 2009, 12:39:12 PM

Okay, I have to admit, Ginny has had me thinking about this mid-life crisis theory, and when she asked, "What, in the opinion of those of you who do not see this as a mid life crisis, does a middle aged man's mid life crisis look like? What are the symptoms?" she got me to searching. Here is what I found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midlife_crisis

Midlife crisis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Midlife crisis is a term coined in 1965 by Elliott Jaques and used in Western societies to describe a period of dramatic self-doubt that is felt by some individuals in the "middle years" of life, as a result of sensing the passing of youth and the imminence of old age. Sometimes, transitions experienced in these years, such as aging in general, extramarital affairs, menopause, the death of parents, or children leaving home, can trigger such a crisis. The result may be a desire to make significant changes in core aspects of day to day life or situation, such as in career, marriage, or romantic relationships.
Academic research since the 1980s rejects the notion of midlife crisis as a phase that most adults go through. In one study, fewer than 10% of people in the United States had psychological crises due to their age or aging.[1] Personality type and a history of psychological crisis are believed to predispose some people to this "traditional" midlife crisis.[2] People going through this suffer a variety of symptoms and exhibit a disparate range of behaviors.
Many middle aged adults experience major life events that can cause a period of psychological stress or depression, such as the death of a loved one, or a career setback. However, those events could have happened earlier or later in life, making them a "crisis," but not necessarily a midlife one. In the same study, 15% of middle-aged adults experienced this type of midlife turmoil.
Some studies indicate that some cultures may be more sensitive to this phenomenon than others, one study found that there is little evidence that people undergo midlife crises in Japanese and Indian cultures, raising the question of whether a midlife crises is mainly a cultural construct. The authors hypothesized that the "culture of youth" in Western societies accounts for the popularity of the midlife crisis concept there.[3]
Researchers have found that midlife is often a time for reflection and reassessment, but this is not always accompanied by the psychological upheaval popularly associated with "midlife crisis."[4]

Occurrence
For the approximately 10% of middle aged adults who go through an age-related midlife crisis, the condition is most common ranging from the ages of 30-60 (a large study in the 1990s[5] found that the average age at onset of a self-described midlife crisis was 46). Midlife crises last about 3–10 years in men and 2–5 years in women.

A midlife crisis could be caused by aging itself, or aging in combination with changes, problems, or regrets over:
work or career
spousal relationships
maturation of children
aging or death of parents
physical changes associated with aging

Midlife crises seem to affect men and women differently. Researchers[6] have proposed that the triggers for mid-life crisis differ between men and women, with male mid-life crisis more likely to be caused by work issues.
Some have hypothesized that another cause of the male mid-life crisis is the imminent menopause of the female partner and end of her reproductive career.[7]

Characteristics
Sports cars are a form of conspicuous consumption.
Individuals experiencing a mid-life crisis have some of these feelings:
search of an undefined dream or goal
a deep sense of remorse for goals not accomplished
desire to achieve a feeling of youthfulness
need to spend more time alone or with certain peers

They exhibit some of these behaviors:
abuse of alcohol
conspicuous consumption—acquisition of unusual or expensive items such as motorbikes, boats, clothing, sports cars, jewelry, gadgets, tattoos, piercings, etc.
depression
blaming themself or their partner for their failures.
paying special attention to physical appearance such as covering baldness, wearing "younger" designer clothes etc.
entering relationships with younger people

Theoretical Basis
Although mid-life crisis has lately received more attention in popular culture than serious research, there are some theoretical constructs supporting the notion. Jungian theory holds that midlife is key to individuation, a process of self-actualization and self-awareness that contains many potential paradoxes.[8] Although Carl Jung did not describe midlife crisis per se, the midlife integration of thinking, sensation, feeling, and intuition that he describes could, it seems, lead to confusion about one's life to date and one's goals. Later, Erik Erikson held[9] that in life's seventh stage, middle adulthood, people struggle to find new meaning and purpose to their lives; their questioning, he believed, could lead to what we now call a midlife crisis.

Some religious psychologists[citation needed] believe men's midlife crisis is a psychological reaction to the imminent menopause and end of reproductive career of their spouses. Their genes may be influencing men to be more attracted to reproductive women, and less attached to their non-reproductive spouses.

Criticism
Some people have challenged the existence of midlife crises altogether. One study[10] found that 23% of participants had what they called a "mid-life crisis," but in digging deeper, only one-third of those—8% of the total—said the crisis was associated with realizations about aging.
The balance (15% of those surveyed) had experienced major life experiences or transitions such as divorce or loss of a job in middle age and described them as "midlife crisis." While there is no doubt these events can be traumatic—the associated grief reactions can be indistinguishable from depression[11] -- these upheavals aren't unique to middle age and aren't an age-related midlife crisis.
University of California - Davis researchers Carolyn Alwin and Michael Levenson presented the current view of midlife crisis in a 2001 article:
Costa and McCrae (1980) found little evidence for an increase in neuroticism in midlife ... While they did find that some people were likely to experience such crises, ... these individuals were likely to experience crises in their 20s and 30s, and these experiences were not unique to midlife. ...Robinson, Rosenberg, and Farrell (1999) reinterviewed (500) men. Looking back over their midlife period, it became evident that while not necessarily entailing crisis, it was a time for reevaluation."[4]

Wrapping up their review of men's midlife crisis, Alwin and Levenson wrote that "... Given the bulk of the data, it is likely that, for most men, midlife is a time of achievement and satisfaction. For a certain proportion of men, however, the passage is not at all smooth." They found a similar pattern when they reviewed research on what are commonly thought to be triggers for women's midlife crisis: menopause, children leaving home, the "sandwich" of caring for both parents and children. Most women navigated those periods without a traumatic psychological "crisis."

The enduring popularity of the midlife crisis concept may be explained by another finding by Robinson et al. As Alwin and Levenson summarize: "... younger men, now middle-aged Baby Boomers, used the term "midlife crisis" to describe nearly any setback, either in their career or family life."
Levinson's findings were research about the possible existence of a mid-life crisis and its implications. Whereas Levinson (1978) found that 80% of middle-aged participants had a crisis, and Ciernia (1985) reported that 70% of men in mid-life said they had a crisis (Shek, 1996) others could not replicate those findings including Shek (1996), Kruger (1994), and McCrae and Costa (1990). The debate of whether or not there is a mid-life crisis is being answered through recent research that attempts to balance such things as response bias and experimenter effects in order to establish internal validity. The above mentioned research does not support Levinson's model of a single age in the middle years that is a designated time of transition and potential "crisis."
For the most part, at all ages researchers in Positive Adult Development have found improvement or at worst, stasis for most of the population.
_____________________________________________________________________

In reading through this, I think its fair to say Jack is experiencing some or many of the referred symptoms and behaviors they describe above. I personally felt the word "crisis" referred to destructive and irrational behavior, which I did not see in Jack. But as we all can clearly see, we could conjecture, Jack is going through a mid life crisis according to this thesis. Now, I need to decide if I am going through one. ??? ;D

Blissful..............he is NOT!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 17, 2009, 03:08:49 PM

Oh I can't believe you brought that in here, that is the VERY thing (despite being Wikipedia) I just brought!! :)

Midlife crisis is a term coined in 1965 by Elliott Jaques and used in Western societies to describe a period of dramatic self-doubt that is felt by some individuals in the "middle years" of life, as a result of sensing the passing of youth and the imminence of old age. Sometimes, transitions experienced in these years, such as aging in general, extramarital affairs, menopause, the death of parents, or children leaving home, can trigger such a crisis. The result may be a desire to make significant changes in core aspects of day to day life or situation, such as in career, marriage, or romantic relationships

Er... yeah? It's not a "crisis" such as we know it, it's about identity, finding yourself adrift, IN middle age, regardless of what sets it off, if he's not having one I guess I don't know one when I see one. :)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 17, 2009, 04:22:03 PM

Ginny, Great minds think alike! :o So I was willing to concede to conjecturing a mid life crisis and you have conceded to '"It's not a "crisis" such as we know it, it's about identity, finding yourself adrift, IN middle age, regardless of what sets it off, if he's not having one I guess I don't know one when I see one. And I sure as hell won't know one if I am in one!!! :-\

I am laughing so hard right now, I practically have tears. Oh aren't we the funny ones?????? ;D :D :)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 17, 2009, 11:37:14 PM

Excellent insights, good points! - We're going strong here!

I'd like to get back to Chapter 7, briefly, and PatH's post about the visibly impaired math teacher.

There was a vacant chair complete with place setting on either side of him, suggesting that everyone concluded his condition might be contagious. (Talking of sad ...)

The noise in the tent must have been deafening and the party of 8 at table 17 was left pretty much to their own devices. Sunny's spontaneous toast, meant for the "fits and misfits" of table 17 only, was a generous, welcome gesture. And Jack didn't tremember ...

By my calculations it was a large party: 16 tables x 12 guests at each + 8 at table 17 = 200.

(One wedding reception I attended in the last few years featured line dancing, which I'd never seen, and enthusiastic performances of the macarena. Lively and fun to watch - but no Bon Jovi.)

Now we know all about midlife crises in general, the symptoms and possible causes thereof. Jack didn't have all the symptoms, as Bellamarie points out. So, did he have a midlife crisis? I'm not sure.

But, I submit to you, isn't it equally possible that he was (simply) a congenital brooder, hypercritical - like his mother - of, and impatient with, other people's foibles, idiosyncrasies and perceived shortcomings, yet not admitting his own?
In fact, a misanthropist?

Well, it is a theory...

On to Part Two, Chapter 8, Bliss.
The title is obviously ironic because Jack's 'bliss' is short-lived. The bottom has dropped out of the barrel of his life. Something he would never have expected. A new impasse; worse this time. His insomnia returns with a vengeance. "Nothing happened", Joy tells him, but he cannot believe her. Since Jack is technically free- except for the grading, he had counted on spending a few more days on the Cape. But Joy, usually so pliable and accommodating, shows unexpected mettle and declares she must return to Connecticut immediately.

Yes, there's a lot of material in this chapter, narrated partly in the form of a script. We might do well to address the pages preceding the script first.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 18, 2009, 06:53:50 AM

Jane that's a plausible explanation for the Table 17 Toast, but it's the first one that makes sense. You all kept saying private toast and I kept seeing the huge hall, with 17 tables, the tap on the glass, the silence, everybody turned for yet another toast to the bride and groom, and then hearing that with an insiders grin at Marguerite and Jack. I truly have not seen that.

However it does make sense that perhaps after the toasts or when the dancing started or a great noise began that a little private toast ...I can see that, thank you. I was beginning to catch the bedlam of what's written here and could not see it.

I think it, and the Sunny character are extraneous to the plot and I still wonder why the toast and the character are there anyway.

Bella :) I never envisioned the "crisis" as a "crisis" as some of us know: a real crisis, but as a cry of the heart so to speak. To have the so called "mid life crisis," you don't need ALL the symptoms, you'd be a nut case, and you don't need a catastrophe type "crisis," most people in the throes of mid life crises keep on, in fact one nattily attired gentleman of that ink pulled up next to me yesterday morning at the truck stop waiting for my grandbaby, in his James Bond Beamer and driving cap. They keep going, that's the point. It's what's going on inside. All you need is one symptom: the loss of personal identity in middle age, no matter what brings it on, and Russo has spelled it out several times.

The baggage in the trunk is almost over the top, that's why I asked initially if this is perhaps supposed to be humorous.

Love, loss, and what I wore. (or am carrying in the trunk).

On Russo making poor grammar choices, the man's an English major with a PhD in American Literature, I doubt he's making Subjunctive errors in a character's speech on purpose. I wonder, don't you, if he uses the Subjunctive anywhere else, either in this text or in his other writings? Maybe we should watch for it.

Some people are hung up on that "if I were" stuff and don't like to use it, but here Mom would definitely have used it, wonder why she didn't?

On to Chapter 8, which starts Part II (Second Wedding). I guess it's useless to speculate why the division, Parts I and II?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 18, 2009, 09:18:15 AM

Bella, since you've redefined your views on mid-life crisis I've deleted
a no longer relevant post. I love the way you and Ginny have come to a
meeting place.

Oh, definitely, JANE. I thought it was clear that Sunny's toast was just
for table seventeen. That probably explains why GINNY found Sunny's toast inappropriate; she thought it was more public.

(SALLY, you have touched on one of the things that irks me. The
proofreading in today's books gets worse and worse, apparently because the cost of careful proofreading cuts into the profit. I see blatant
errors in what is supposed to be good writing and it is so irritating.)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 18, 2009, 10:43:17 AM

from Babi

Quote

(SALLY, you have touched on one of the things that irks me. The
proofreading in today's books gets worse and worse, apparently because the cost of careful proofreading cuts into the profit. I see blatant
errors in what is supposed to be good writing and it is so irritating.)

Boy, is that ever true! I'm finding more and more blatant errors...obvious they're letting spell checker be the "authority."

I don't know why the Parts I and II. Obviously time has passed between the parts, but that can be indicated in other ways...like just saying so! And yet time hasn't as far as the narrative is concerned, I guess...with the flashback although a year later back to the Cape thing. I sometimes think the publishers do this to add more pages to the text to justify the high cost of the printed books. But, that's probably just cynical jane rambling on.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 18, 2009, 10:51:13 AM

Traude,

Quote

Jack's 'bliss' is short-lived.

Indeed it is short lived. It makes me ask the question, did Joy and Jack get caught up in the festivities, and the alcohol and it resulted in the love making? When he woke up he described it so tenderly and lovingly, even with thoughts of possibly yet another round of love making.

pg. 179 " Joy was usually an early riser, but last night's sex, together with too much to drink, had made her lazy and content as well. When he touched her bare shoulder she purred like a cat, which might mean she was amendable to a reprise of last night's intimacy possible, she was just enjoying the special indulgence of sleeping in after the long, grueling semester. Or remembering that Laura was now engaged. Before Griffin could make up his mind which it was he'd drifted off again."

So, he is already questioning this "bliss." And I truly believe at this point Joy and Jack are feeling blissful, although it is short lived.

As for any grammatical errors in the book and if they are on purpose or accident, I will leave that to you experts in English. I've become very lazy and depend far too much on spell check and grammar check. But I will say, Jack mentions in his interview how he uses a computer to write his books, and it goes through an editing process before print, so, I would be surprised the computer or the editors did not find such errors and correct them. Random House is a pretty respected and reputable publishing company. So...why are they here? ???

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 18, 2009, 08:15:34 PM

I'm with everyone on bad proofreading, bad grammar, etc. I've got to admit though, that sometimes even sticklers are careless in conversation. Even I have been known to wantonly split infinitives in conversation, something I would never do in writing ;D.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: pedln on November 18, 2009, 09:31:10 PM

Ah, proofreading -- my summer job from hs graduation through college, at the local newspaper. Even the summer before I started teaching. I don't think they do that anymore.

Why parts one and two. Each one starts (sort of) with a wedding. Death has claimed (sort of) a principal character. We're now in Maine (Joy's territory) as opposed to the Cape (Jack's area.) There are probably a dozen more reasons, but I'm trying to get out of town in less than two days and don't have time to think about them.

Bella and Ginny, interesting points about mid-life crisis. I think the term itself is one that get's bandied around a lot, kind of like "child at risk." A phrase that supposedly explains a lot of behavior. "Oh, he's having some mid-life crisis. Look at that dumb motorcycle (camera, dog, gun, airplane) he just bought." Everyone has crisis at some point in their life. Some just get through them better than others.

I don't think Joy plays an entirely blameless part in Jack's "crisis." Learning that his wife loved his friend had to be a blow. And she knows he's suffering from many things and is not trying to make it easier for him. (I need to go back and reread on that.)

But she could certainly do a little more to help with the wedding, instead of the half-hearted "I can help . . . . . fade fade away. The poor guy took $35,000 out of his retirement fund (he's not 59 and he'll have to pay extra taxes on that) so he'd be "comfortable" writing checks at the Hedges.

I can't remember -- did the book ever say where Laura went to school? Jack's college paid the tuition, but did it say where? (I don't want to get on my soapbox.) ONe child's children have been told since birth that they were going to an Ivy League school - 1 down, 2 to go. Another child has told her children that tuition has been paid and locked in for any public school in their state. Period.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 19, 2009, 11:57:45 AM

Pedln,

Quote

I don't think Joy plays an entirely blameless part in Jack's "crisis." Learning that his wife loved his friend had to be a blow. And she knows he's suffering from many things and is not trying to make it easier for him.

I agree with you, I have tried to look at more than just Jack and his parents, and what part others have played in this dysfunctional BOOK. I can't imagine what it must be like to have suspicions of your spouse having feelings for someone else early on in your marriage, and then 30 some years later find your suspicions were real. Joy lived with these supressed, secretive feelings for years and continued the friendship with Tommy. I don't think her saying, she did not act on them and chose Jack, lets her off the hook. She deflects the entire conversation by bringing Jack's parents involvement into the conversation, when they are discussing her and Tommy.

Both sets of parents have had some involvement and effect on their marriage, in real life that is the way it is. As a couple you deal with it and support each other. My family and my husband's have given the two of us much to deal with in our 38 yrs of marriage.

Joy has not struck me as a loving, supportive wife where Jack is concerned. She didn't have to accept him leaving the room to talk with his Mom. She could have been more proactive. It seems she got her house, baby, career and continued friendship with Tommy and was happy with that. Tommy seems to be the one she felt the most comfortable to talk to and confide in. Tommy ingratiated himself into their lives and was the perfect husband/father model throughout her pregnancy. How terribly sad to read this. What effort has Joy made throughout the marriage to help Jack? Then comes the wedding, and yes, as Pedln points out, Joy expects Jack to foot the entire cost.

Jack knowing he has the most horrible parents compared to Joy's, carries the burden of their faults. She uses that as the reason and excuse for all his problems including their troubled marriage. I say NOT fair.

I was just annoyed with the whole conversation on pages 183 - 186 Joy puts Jack on the defensive, she calls Laura and goes on with this happy happy attitude, when in fact they have just had a fight, and then she hangs up and goes back into her glum mood. On the phone Laura obviously askes about her Dad, and you hear the response, "No, he's fine." Its like she keeps him out of the closeness of the three of them. She's dismissive of even going to Truro, she goes on and on about how she has so much going on and he doesn't. The statement she makes, pg. 185 "It's not a story. Or a screenplay. It's my job. My life.", is one more indication of her leaving Jack out. When has Joy truly included him into her life? Sure she goes along, but why? Maybe all these years she has gone along because she knows she has not been emotionally committed to the marriage, having her secret feelings for Tommy. Maybe she has gone along because she has been getting what she wants. It's easy for the reader to not like Jack, but is it easy for the reader to not like Joy? Can you be fair and really see what part Joy has played in making him feel left out? There is plenty of blame to go around for this troubled marriage.

This entire chapter un nerved me. So, is the script Russo has given us from pages 205 - on, JUST that... a scipt? Is this Jack thinking and mulling things over in his head? Is Russo revealing more of Joy's part in the marriage? I'm with Pedln, I have to go back and re read some things. ::)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 19, 2009, 08:02:06 PM

I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out the rights and wrongs of the marriage. It obviously has been good in many ways. The sex scene has the vibes of a relationship with a history of love and companionship, where your bodies are old friends, good friends, and sex is as much about comfort and joy as about the release of physical needs.

But neither makes the effort they should to understand the other one's issues, or explain their own. The scheduling needs of Joy's job would be a no-brainer for anyone who was paying attention to her working life. The attitudes of a screenwriter should be more of a given to someone who has lived with such a writer. Griffin is sneaky about trying to set up semesters off, without considering the effect this will have on Joy's job. Joy either doesn't take seriously Sid's call to Griffin or doesn't want him to have a chance to go back to screenwriting.

I've got more to say, but I have to go. It's a start anyway.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 19, 2009, 10:18:41 PM

Yes, PatH, there is so much more to say.
Thanks for your posts, Bellamarie, Ginny, Babi, Jane, pedln, and, again, PatH.

We have come halfway in this discussion of an intensely introspective book that does not have a discernible plot but is centered around two weddings: first Kelsey's, the narrator's beloved daughter's best friend; the second is the daughter's wedding one year later. The first wedding takes place on Cape Cod,
the second one in Maine; both locations have a special meaning for the narrator's family.
Hence the neat division into two parts.

What was Jack's and Joy's marriage like?
In Part One we see it essentinally in the context of the narrator's past, and his deliberate flight from his neglectful parents. How could this childhood not have left a mark on Jack? That is the background in Part One and, I believe, threatens to overwhelm it.
What we hear throughout is the narrator's voice, is, of course, including grammatical inconsistencies and (irritating) "lingo".

Part Two reveals a deeper, darker side of Jack's and Joy's marriage. And it seems to me now, more than before, that we read Joy differently. For my part I've seen Joy from the beginning as an anchor, as the voice of common sense --- something that was sorely lacking in Jack's environment.

An only child, Jack developed an instant dislike for Joy's Joy's large family in Sacramento. But it was Joy who ended up begging off invitations because of a deadline, which may well have been a pretext in some instances. So Joy was left holding the bag, so to speak, and, almost irrationally, Jack resented her apologizing to her family on the phone.

Jack's partnership with Tommy worked well; their creative juices complemented each other. Tommy was apparently holding a torch for Joy. In fact, Tommy was more concened about Joy during her pregnancy than Jack was -- check it, it's in the frst pages of this chapter; I'm not listing pages since we don't all have the same printed edition.

Joy's revelations in Chapter 8 come as a blow, a nasty surprise, to Jack who never had any suspicions before.
Let's assume for the moment it was not an "affair" but a platonic friendship (such things ARE possible, you know) - taking into consideration the fact that the Griffins had been in Connecticut for a decade or so. Tommy sounds like a good man to me, even in the narrator's "lingo" voice.

We all know that no marriage is 50/50 and that one partner is often the dominant one-more or less. From all appearances, that was Jack in the Griffin marriage. They did what he wanted most of the time. And Joy accommodated him. Then came the move East when Laura was a teenager. Joy renovated the charming old house they found AND found a job at ther college. As we've seen, Jack bitterly resented both developments. I see i as a sign of Joy's liberation.

Jack, on the other hand, looks to me like a clinging wine - I know all the signs.

More romorrow

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 20, 2009, 01:38:06 AM

I do NOT see Jack as a "clinging wine" (I'm assuming that is a typo Truade and you meant Vine.) He is a husband and father. He deserves honesty and transparency in his marriage. Joy was well aware of his defiencies, so was she the clinging vine for wanting to stay in her marriage for thirty some years, if she felt she was settling and always making the consessions? I think not, nor is he now.

When they finally do get to her revealing her feelings for Tommy, she turns it on Jack, and uses his parents to deflect from her wrong. pg. 200-01 But usually their disputes were contained. They were about something not everything. Yesterday's had started out like that, focused on his wife's admission that yes, for a time she'd been in love, or something like love, with his old friend. But that perimeter had quickly been breached by Joy's claim that the issue between them now was about him, not Tommy."

I find this completely unfair. Joy knew he would not be able to dispute he had been struggling with his parents, and father's death. She used this, to take the attention off of her wrong doing.

I personally never saw Joy as the voice of common sense or anchor. She was enjoying the nomad life, the partying, the hollywood life, until she decided she wanted to settle down and have a baby. I did not see Tommy as a nice guy whatsoever. Tommy was concerned more about Joy's pregnancy than Jack because he was in love with her and was ingratiating himself to her. Tommy knew and took advantage of Jack's weaknesses. I have seen people like Tommy who are the best friend/partner, with their own personal agenda. I was expecting to read the baby was actually Tommy's from the way Russo described Tommy's part and feelings.

pg. 197 The entire time Joy was pregnant, nobody had been more solicitous of her than Tommy.....Griffin remembered vividly the first time he (Tommy) held the baby, how reluctantly he'd handed Laura back, then turned to him and said, "Mr. Lucky."

Tommy was jealous of Jack and he showed it many times by tellling Jack he was "lucky." He actually comes out and says when Jack sees him staring at Joy, not his own wife, pg. 191 "We're both lucky," Griffin would respond with a sweeping gesture, that included their lovely young wives....."Yeah, sure," Tommy always replied, "but there's luck and then there's luck."

Jack had suspicions prior to Joy admitting her feelings. pg. 190 -91 The day he found Joy sobbing in the shower, some part of him had known Tommy had to be involved. Even back when he and Elaine were still married and they were a foursome traipsing off to Mexico, Griffin knew about his friend's crush on Joy. At what point had his feelings for her been reciprocated? This Joy refused to tell him, asking what difference could it possibly make, so he'd spent the long night scrolling back through their marriage, especially the times he'd behaved badly. There'd been a fair number, he had to admit. Had his wife already fallen for Tommy the day she told Griffin she hated jazz? Probably not, but the seed might well have been sown that early."

Reading this was heart wrenching for me. Just imagining what it would feel like to learn your spouse had feelings for your friend/partner, and then trying to figure out when they actually began the betrayal. Why doesn't Joy understand how not knowing when, will only cause Jack more distress? It may not matter to her, but it matters to him. It could save him the anguish of imagining the when. Joy does not fight fair here.

Platonic or not, Tommy and Joy had feelings that were of the mind and heart, and that is a betrayal to not only her marriage, but to the friendship Tommy had with Jack. Yes, the partnership worked well for both of them, but.....does that excuse the betrayal? Jack may have resented the fact that Joy seemed to find her happiness, she did get what she wanted, and she seemed to leave him on the outside. He felt it when Laura hugged him differently, when Joy calls Laura and seems to be so very happy, yet goes back to being glum with him, when she gave a toast with little regard for him being a screen writer, when she refers to "MY LIFE" instead of our life, when she tells him he has never been happy, and he responds, "I was happy last night."

I like how Russo addresses this, pg.204 "If he had a few secrets about the phone calls to his agent and conversations with his dean, what about the whopper she'd been keeping all these years? He wasn't the one who'd fallen in love with someboy else; she had." Again, Joy is quick to point out Jack's secrets and seem hurt, yet she has not been honest herself.

I suppose depending on your own personal experiences in life, each of us will see Jack and Joy, and their marriage through different glasses. Being happily married for thirty eight years and knowing the ups and downs, the struggles, the times you give in, the times you get your own way, the family dynamics and interferences of the in laws, etc., etc., you learn marriage is not a given of always being happy. It's like the yen and yang of life. That is why in our marriage vows it is sickness and health, good times and bad, richer or poorer. So throughout this book, I have not seen a deal breaker up until now. But then again, I am speaking from my own personal feelings. Adultery would be a deal breaker for me. For me, adultery is not only considered of the body, it can be of the mind and heart and be as destructive to a marriage.

For those who do not have the same printed edition as mine, forgive me for using page numbers. I use the page numbers for my sake of keeping track of where things happened in my book.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 20, 2009, 08:32:01 AM

Bella/Straude: I think Straude meant "clinging whine"! Tlhat is just what Jack is. It seems like he is always issuing challenges to Joy. She gives in most of the time, but when she doesn't Griffin "whines" about it.

Joy says to Jack after their love-making: "Okay, last night for a few short hours you were happy. But you always retreat. It's like you are afraid it won't last. Like if you admit to being happy someone will steal it from you."

Page 159 in my book gives a good example of Joy & Jack's personalities. Joy articulated what she wanted. Griffin tellingly what he didn't want; as it the negative were a nifty substitute for an unimagined possitive. (More grammatical errors in that section of the book). This part made me wonder what the story would look like if told from Joy's point of view.

On page 169 Joy told Griffin that his unhappiness exhausted her. AMEN!! It exhausted me, too! It would be terribly hard to live with a negative person. I found myself getting very aggravated with Jack. I wanted to tell him to get over it--so he grew up in a dysfunctional family (a lot of us did, too, and with even more abusive parents). How long can you blame someone else for your own problems?? Once you reach a certain age, you are responsible for your future. Yes, it's hard and there are scars and memories "too deep for tears", but I firmly believe that you are "the master of your fate--the captain of your soul". When you cling to the past you only bring unhappiness on yourself and others around you. Forgive all the cliches in this paragraph!!

This book has really brought out strong emotions in a lot of us, hasn't it?
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 20, 2009, 08:42:23 AM

I'm a little puzzled here, BELLEMERE. How would not accepting Jack's
decision to keep his Mom's phone calls private be more loving and
supportive? And to me, being able to continue a friendship without
allowing it to cross the line is a sign of maturity and marital
commitment.
Again, now they are separated, I can understand her being annoyed that he proposes they take off for a holiday with no consideration of the fact that she has a job. It minimizes the importance of whatever is going on her life. As you quoted, "It's not a story. Or a screenplay".

I think this quote is a key insight…. “…a writer’s reason to believe. Because in its own way that ending would have been perfect, symmetrical, implied in its beginning.”
I wonder how much of what Griffin remembers has been colored by his
writer’s instincts for a better story?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 20, 2009, 11:14:36 AM

Quote from: Babi on November 20, 2009, 08:42:23 AM

I wonder how much of what Griffin remembers has been colored by his
writer’s instincts for a better story?

Good point, Babi, I've been wondering that too. Even the last evening with (or rather without) the Brownings could have been re-worked over the years to make Griffin's actions more to his liking.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 20, 2009, 12:39:42 PM

Babi,

Quote

I'm a little puzzled here, BELLEMERE. How would not accepting Jack's decision to keep his Mom's phone calls private be more loving and supportive?

For me, Joy accepting going along with Jack keeping her out of the dynamics of his mother and father, would result in a break down of their marriage. She and Jack needed to discuss the phone calls to help him be more open with his struggles. It would seem more beneficial for him and their marriage. My husband and I share and talk about everything. That I believe is what makes our marriage strong and keeps us from not needing or wanting to turn to someone else for that comfort or support. Whenever a partner decides to leave the other out, or the other allows themself to be left out, I feel its the first steps of marital break down. Now, like I said, this is my personal opinion and that does not make it right for all. Our personal experiences of what has made our marriage a happy, successful marriage is what we bring to the discussion. Little steps of excluding your spouse, can only over the years result in either both or one feeling left out. In Jack and Joy's incidence, they both are expressing the hurt of feelling left out.

Sally, I do not see Jack as a clinging Whine, or vine .....Joy was keeping this huge secet throughout their entire marriage? Those feelings she had for Tommy had to spill over into their marriage, regardless if she did not act on them. When you are deceptive and have feelings for another person other than your spouse, you can NOT possibly be giving everything to your marriage. She was fed up with his unhappiness, well how much effort did she make to help him with it? It seems she had her house, her baby, her career and her secrets. Where does she take any accountability for her part in their failed marriage? When she finally admits to her deception and feelings, she immediately turns the blame to Jack about his parents and him being unhappy. All your cliches are spot on, but... Russso did not choose to follow that path for Jack or Joy. I am exhausted with both Jack and Joy's unhappiness. I am even fed up with Russo, for that matter.

I do feel when Russo said in his interview that the story got away from him, this is what we are seeing and reacting to. I do think alot of Jack's memories are colored to fill the pages, and to entertain the reader. Russo said it was satirical humor, indeed it is. So much is so over the top, I have wanted to throw the book across the room many times. This entire chapter frustrated me. ::)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 20, 2009, 12:45:19 PM

Well take heart, Bella. I finished reading the book before leaving for New Mexico and laughed myself stupid (er) in the last few chapters. russo seemed to lighten up a tad and really seemed to be enjoying the humor of all of our protoganist and family's foibles.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 20, 2009, 01:05:37 PM

You gals are far better people than I am. I could not discuss Jack's mother with him...what is there to say about her that both of them don't already know? If I were Joy, my part of such a conversation would be:

jane as Joy: You speak with your Mother as often as you need to,Dear Jack, but I am out of it. A woman who won't call me by name, who is constantly condescending to me because I didn't go to graduate school, has no friends and is in one word a bitch, is not going to be dear to me. I have nothing to say to her that is kind or sweet or even bordering on nice.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 20, 2009, 03:08:38 PM

Jane, LOL I never was a person who could even consider saying those words to anyone, but I have always admired those who could. Now you have truly amused me! I have a fix it personality, I would just HAVE to be a part of Jack and his mother and father's drama if I were his wife. LOLOL ;D

Andy, I read the ending and won't give anything away, BUT....I can say the chances of me reading another Russo book is about as slim as me having another baby, now that I am beyond menapause. Labor may even be lighter than reading another of these books. LOLOL Okay, so I am joking, all us mothers know nothing compares to labor pains. :o :o :o :o

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 20, 2009, 03:45:16 PM

"There was never yet an uninteresting life,
Such a thing is an impossibility.
Inside the dullest exterior there is
a drama, a comedy and a tragedy."
~~~Mark Twain

That pretty much sums up our guy.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 20, 2009, 09:48:06 PM

Andy, I LOVE it!!!! Twain has all the bases covered here.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 20, 2009, 10:03:34 PM

Alf, ahhhh, your # 181 did my heart good. Wise words from the Master. Thank you.
I was afraid there for a moment we night get caught up in righteous indignation and overlook the elements that are funny in this book.

Typos, unfortunately, bedevil even the best typists among us, although I won't deny that I love Sally's interpretation: clinging whine. The term IS applicable. hahaha

Griffin is a man weighed down with details. Entangled in his memories as if in chains, he's distracted by each individual link. Tommy, his former partner and closest riend (there aren't many) balances Griffin by seeing the big picture in a story idea. Unfortunately, Griffin has brought the same obsession with details into his personal life. When he stops to look back and figure out how he got where he is, faced with a breaking marriage, and a relationship with his adored daughter that isn't as cordial as he would want,
all he has is a tide, rolling in and out of memories.

After nearly two decades a dark secret is revealed; Joy and Griffin have reached rock bottom. They talked and argued through the night. The crucial grievances are described in short scenes as if from a movie, complete with an close-ups and directorial asides. The reader watches in horror, helplessly.

In the morning Griffin sets out in thick fog (actual and symbolic) with the apparent intention to scatter his father's ashes. He drives in the wrong direction but stubbornly stays on the wrong path. All the while he replays the arguments (flashbacks within flashbacks), trying to work through his emotional fog. The scattering attempt fails. He's waist-high in the ocean. A wave washes the urn out of his hand; he loses his balance. LOST, he thinks. Mercifully, the undertow his father had so feared brings it back up. Relief. FOUND. But mission not accomplished.

Visibility is better on the drive back to the B&B in Wellfleet. He continues his ruminations, and, wonder of wonders, he beholds a colony of beach cottages in horseshoe arrangement, all in bright pastel colors, just as he remembered them from the summer with the Brownings. He stops and stares at the physical changes (there was no swimming pool the year he was there). The scene of their arrival is suddenly before in every vivid detail. An epiphany.

Joy had been right all along. His parents were the intruders in their lives, not hers. The clarity of his memory could be called a vindication, and this reader is as pleased as Punch about it. Mother was wrong.

Joy was packed and waiting. She did not comment on Griffin's appearance and wet clothes, and he did not tell her that he had stumbled on the cottage where his family had vacationed ages ago with the Brownings. They drove in silence from Wellfleet to Hyannis and then on to Falmouth, where Joy's bag was put into her SUV. In separate cars they set off for the Bourne bridge, Joy in the lead.

When they had moved from California, they'd aso driven in two cars, before the advent of cell phones, but easily established a perfect system of stops, rests, meals. When one fell behind, the other would stop.

Griffin's cell phone vibrated: Tommy. Griffin pulled over on the shoulder. Had Joy noticed? Would she stop and wait for him on the other side of the bridge? If she did, there would still be hope ...

A gig was available, Tommy said. Before his sudden death Sid had pitched Griffin for it. Tommy's agent had told him. A TV movie for cable, decent money, six to eight weeks. It could be finished by Labor Day; they would be partners again. Griffin explained he was on his way back home and would call Tommyfrom there. Then he asked, "Are you still in love with Joy?"
Not even a second's hesitation.
"Sure," said his old friend. "Aren't you?"

Griffin switched the cell off and carefully pulled back into traffic, climbing onto the bridge. From its elevated mid-point he saw a steady stream of cars almost a mile down the highway. None were on the shoulder. Half an hour later he switched the cell back on, hoping to see that he'd missed a call, but none had come in.

I enjoyed all your posts. Jane, that of course was the perfect answer. hahahaha If only it were that easy in real life!

Since many of you have already finished the book, I suggest we now go on to Chapter 9 Rehearsal for Laura's wedding. Thank you.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 21, 2009, 09:14:39 AM

Oh, blast! I just lost my post.

BELLA, I agree that closed off areas between husband and wife are not
good for a marriage. I think it is the word 'supportive' that troubles me.
To me, 'supportive' means I'll back up your decision. If you would care
to substitute the word 'beneficial', as per your post, I can probably live
with that.

Quote

"Are you still in love with Joy?"
Not even a second's hesitation.
"Sure," said his old friend. "Aren't you?"

TRAUDE, these lines speak volumes to me about the relationship between Joy and Tommy. There was nothing hidden or secretive about
it. It was an honest fondness and appreciation for one another. I see
more of Jack's lifelong habit of seeing everything through some kind
of filter, than anything to Joy's discredit.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 21, 2009, 10:55:25 AM

Babi, Yes, I agree, if you see the word supportive from your view, I understand why you would have trouble with it. That's the thing about discussing with type, rather than face to face, a word can be interpreted differently in such a simple way. When I used the word "supportive" my intent was merely for Joy to be there for him to talk with, regardless if he tried to push her away. Jack has never had anyone to actually be there for him. He is not comfortable expressing himself and his feelings. Since Joy is from a large family that was very open with their communication skills, I would have liked it if Russo would have given Joy the sensitivity and the strength to help him, let her in. I did not intend her to back up all his decisions, because Lord knows, he has made some really poor ones. Thank you for your clarifying and consideration.

Tommy was so clear how he loved Joy not only as a friend. Joy's own admission is she loved Tommy at one time, more than a friend. If Tommy had it his way, he would definitely not have had any problem with taking Joy from Jack. Joy did not let it happen. So, no I am not on board with Tommy being a nice guy or a good friend. Friends don't cross those boundaries. If that is "righteous idignation," then I can live with it. lolol ;)

Traude,

Quote

I was afraid there for a moment we night get caught up in righteous indignation and overlook the elements that are funny in this book.

It was hard to find much humor in this particular chapter. We are discussing what we individually feel and understand about the dynamics of this troubled marriage, Joy's admission of being in love with Tommy at some point, and the relationships of Jack, Joy, and Tommy. Again, depending on our own personal experiences, life styles, beliefs etc., we will feel and see things from that persceptive. I tend to expect much and get disappointed plenty. lolol ::)

I look forward to getting back to the humor, and the final two chapters promise us plenty of that. lol

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 21, 2009, 11:49:35 AM

Babi, that's exactly how I feel.

Bellamarie, in my humble opinion there is no comparison between a f2f discussion and ours held online for four weeks 24/7.

First of all because of the much shorter time period.
Because sometimes we speak all at once. That's what I meant when I've described them as "spirited".
At other times two or three members get off on a tangent and begin a murmured mini discussion.
All of that has happened in our local group.
The former leader actually brought a little bell to meetings, but its feeble ringing that did not tame us. either.
(Now is this funny or sad?)

So here now on line, we do not see eye to eye on what is funny or "hilarious" (was the term used by several reviewers). That, I believe, is based on our temperament, experiences, makeup, and taste.

It was always so. As the Romans said : De gustibus non est disputandum, which I translate as it's no use to argue over matters of taste.

More later

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 21, 2009, 01:10:52 PM

Yes, Traude, "no comparison" indeed, but we sure do have fun, share and learn alot here at Senior Learn, in spite of those differences. Now would any of us be guilty of "spirited", or going off on tangents.....lolol I sure hope so!! lolol And NO bells to ring to stop the text from being typed. Thank goodness we have these llittle animation faces that can help us with seeing when someone is expressing :), ;), :D , ;D, >:(, :(, :o, 8), ???, ::), :P, :-[, :-X, :-\, :-*, :'( and LOLOLOL

Off to watch Michigan vs Ohio State football game. I was born and raised in Michigan ( a true blue wolverine) and now living in Ohio to a true Buckeye. Talk about spirited, our family has tons of fun today, regardless who wins. Hail to the Victors....Let's Go Blue!!!!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 21, 2009, 07:15:38 PM

Now we're on chapter 9, which should have enough slapstick, irony and pathos for all of us. But I'd like to add a thought about chapter 8. Griffin makes a big deal of Joy wanting to avoid Tommy now. Try reversing the genders of the two and see how it plays. Can you imagine a woman scolding her husband for being unwilling to see a woman he had loved?

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 22, 2009, 06:56:10 AM

Good point, Pat. It seems like Jack was always testing Joy, and she always fell short. What do you suppose his reaction would have been if Joy had wanted to see Tommy? Joy was in a lose-lose situation. I think she just got tired of trying to please him.
Straude, I think Jack crossing the bridge was symbolic in many ways. Joy was not waiting for him on the other side. Was this deliberate on her part? Was she exhausted with his games, or was she simply travelling on assuming that he would catch up with her. Alas, another failure on Joy's part.
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 22, 2009, 08:55:23 AM

Personally, SALAN, I think 'exhausted with his games' fits Joy's condition
very well. As to the importance of waiting for him at the bridge, I can't
see that as "another failure" on Joy's part. They were going their
separate ways; why would she wait for him? She could hardly be aware of what 'tests' were going on in Jack's mind.

Chapter 9 is about the rehearsal, and mostly about Linda. There are some important issues re. Linda and Jack's mother, I think. Jack kept his child away from his Mother as much as possible. Partly that was because she really did not like dealing with babies and small children. But he also did not want his child ‘contaminated’ by his Mother’s snobbishness and bitterness.
How aware is he of the contamination of that snobbishness and bitterness in himself? I see those traits in his attitude toward Joy's family.

Griffins Mother, dying, trying to describe her granddaughter, and finally says ‘kind’. Griffin thinks “It was if he concept were fabulously exotic, one she’d read about but hadn’t personally encountered until now.” Another line from Mom…”Happy? Only very stupid people are happy.”
What an unhappy life this woman has led, that she can only suppose anyone who can be happy must be stupid.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 22, 2009, 08:58:03 AM

Sally and Babi...it's incredible how you both and I think alike about these people.

I wonder if whatever were Joy's feelings for Tommy came from his giving her the attention and care, during her pregnancy, etc. that she wished for from Jack, but didn't get.

Perhaps all the moves during their CA days were Jack's doing. He seems to think he has a way with words and can talk Joy into anything...so maybe it was his repeating the constant moves of his childhood as a young married. Maybe that's why Joy wanted the house and the stability she found in the east.

His mother is so toxic she should have been on a toxic waste list! She poisons everything she comes in contact with. Thank heavens that Jack realized that and she was kept at some distance from Laura, though I doubt she was interested in the child...except to try and instill her hatred and warped views on "Ivy League" on the child.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 22, 2009, 09:57:17 AM

I am amazed at how Joy's faults are overlooked and Jack's every move is depicted. He seems to be blamed for everything wrong. He certainly has enough faults and problems to make it appear everything is his fault, but.... for Joy to say she is fed up,is one more way of her NOT dealing. She allowed herself to be left out. Each time Russo shows she "offers" and Jack says no, because he does not want to put her through the craziness of his parents, she accepts it. He thinks he is sparing her feelings and the anguish he is going through himself. If my husband was struggling as much as Russo has shown Jack is, I would move mountains to help him. I would not take "No" for an answer. Yes, it would and could get exhausting, but...isn't that what a marriage is all about?

Would you give up and accept it if your child was the one going through what Jack is going through? Would you get fed up and exhausted and just back off if they refused your offer? I personally feel Russo created worse case scenarios for Jack, and then threw in a few "poor Joy", and did not deal enough with the dynamics of how this all effected the marriage.

He touches on how it all was effecting Laura, even to the point the poor child grows up constantly thinking her parents would divorce. Now that she is about to marry the man she loves, she has doubts of unhappiness and hurt. Joy had to be a part of her daughter feeling this way, Jack could NOT be the only one to blame here. Laura reached out to her Dad, to sit and talk and express her doubts and share her visit with his mother. Laura is doing what Joy should have done. Laura has compassion for her Dad, and his situation with his mother. Laura is more mature and caring than either parent. She wants to show her Dad that she did enjoy talking with his mother, her grandmother, she cared about what she thought about college, she took it in her stride when she acted snobbish about what college to choose. Laura wants to let her Dad know, that in her eyes, his mother was not ALL bad. I got tears in my eyes imagining that scene between Jack and Laura sitting there. Laura initiated that entire walk and talk. She wanted reassurance from her Daddy, and she also wanted to give him reassurance. Now for me that has been the best part of this book so far!

Okay, Truade now that is what I would call a "tangent." lololol

Off to church, a baptism and Christmas shopping! Hope you all have a great day!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 22, 2009, 11:09:24 AM

bellamarie-

Quote

I am amazed at how Joy's faults are overlooked and Jack's every move is depicted. He seems to be blamed for everything wrong. He certainly has enough faults and problems to make it appear everything is his fault, but.... for Joy to say she is fed up,is one more way of her NOT dealing. She allowed herself to be left out.

Do NOT be amazed- Joy is fed up, she's had it and chooses not to be a part of it any further. It's her coping mechanism and being one who has lived with a husband like this for a few years, I completely understand her desire to NOT deal. She has had it and this may be the only way to save her marriage. She just walks away (in her case travels over the bridge) , alone and keeps right on going. This was the crux of the whole book to me. " I am not waiting any further on the other side of this bridge, I've done my best and it has not worked so- NOW I am gone. " I mean come on, the guy has been emotionally gone, totally absent in this marriage except when he wanted his way. She has had it and I personally cheered her on to keep on going when she had crossed the bridge.
Hey it worked for me. ::)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 22, 2009, 12:53:16 PM

The business of the bridge isn't exactly a test, it's more that Jack is looking for an omen. He has no particular reason to suppose that she will revert to a habit they gave up when they got cell phones, but he's hoping she will think of it, make the gesture.

This is characteristic of him. He's always waiting for her to make the gesture first, to give in. Time after time, once they are separated, he wants to approach her, wishes he could, but doesn't. Joy, in the meanwhile, is too fed up to do this any more. And she realizes, correctly I think, that their marriage only stands a chance if he's willing to make the effort symbolized by making a gesture.

I sympathize more with Joy than with Griffin, but I definitely sympathize with him too. I definitely see him more clearly, though. We're inside his head, and get to know him quite well. Joy remains an incomplete picture, though, and I don't quite understand her. Maybe Griffin doesn't either.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 22, 2009, 02:48:31 PM

I'm late. My grandchildren spent the night and delighted in taking command (separately) of my computer.
My daughter arrives in Boston this afternoon. Am I frazzled? You bet. But I'm also excited and feel blessed.

And I simply must to reply to the latest posts, though not fully. Again, thank you.

First to PatH's fascinating question in #188 : "Can you imagine a woman scolding her husband for being unwilling to see a woman he had loved? ?"

My short answer is no. In my opinion, not knowing anything else about the hypothetical couple, the woman would have every reason to be pleased with him, and consider herself fortunate to to be married to him. hahaha

Now this was fun!

Sally, Babi, Jane, you expressed exactly what I feel.

Alf,, AMEN. BTW, you as a golfer must have chuckled at Harve's futile attempts to teach Griffin the game ...
-----------
The action in Part Two takes place in Maine, one year later; the occasion is Laura's rehearsal dinner. Griffin drives to the designated place, the (aptly named) Hedges, in his old roadster, we presume.
Joy's family is staying there, and Griffin has been offered the same possibility. "But, given the separation and the fact that he was bringing a guest,he thought it might be better to stay someplace else."

What? Bringing a guest?

"It had not started out as a separation, at least not in the legal sense. After Wellfleet, they agreed that Griffin would go to L.A.

He moved in with Tommy. Tommy asked no personal questions and Griffin volunteered nothing.
Two weeks later Tommy said,
"So, you're not going to call her?"
"She knows how to reach me," Griffin replied.
Thinking, true, Joy had said in Wellfleet that ]his unhappiness had exhausted her, but he clung to the belief that she would "blink" and call him.

Obviously, things were not the same between the partners -- Joy was between them. The subject of Griffin's marriage was proscribed and, aside from the fact that they could not hit their stride, things were all right. They were respectful of each other. In this fashion summer limped along.

One morning, when they read the last day's writing before beginning a new scene, Tommy said,
"Griff, do us both a favor. Go home."
"Another week and a half and we'll have a draft," Griffin answered.
"Never mind the draft," Tommy said, "you're miserable, and you're hurting that woman. And what about your daughter?"

Laura had nottaken it well. She called her father, terrified that divorce[, something she had worried about for years might come to pass.
Not long after, the cable movie project ended; they were fired.
And, as an old proverb says , one mishap comes sedom alone.

It was a call from his mother's phone, but the caller was a neighbor who had found her, gasping for breath, an apparent heart attack. Tommy took him to LAX for the flight to Indiana. They parted awkwardly.

"Okay if I tell Joy about this", Tommy asked
"I''d rather you didn't"
"I might any way."

Who, I wonder, is more concerned about Joy, Tommy or Griffin?

In great haste.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 22, 2009, 05:00:34 PM

amen, Traude. Tommy was much more supportive of Joy and her plight than her own husband. I wished that Russo had developed his character to a greater extent.

yes, I did crack up when Joy's dad was teaching Griffen to

"keep his head down."

that is my biggest problem, I'm nosey and want to see what's happening with the pathway of the ball.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 22, 2009, 06:25:45 PM

Andy, Thank you, thank you, thank you.....I have NOT lived it, so of course I can NOT understand it. Your insight helped me realize, that there are those who have had to walk away. I just keep feeling so darn sorry for Jack. And to be honest, Joy's admission of loving Tommy really wrangled me.

PatH,

Quote

And she realizes, correctly I think, that their marriage only stands a chance if he's willing to make the effort symbolized by making a gesture.

I sympathize more with Joy than with Griffin, but I definitely sympathize with him too. I definitely see him more clearly, though. We're inside his head, and get to know him quite well. Joy remains an incomplete picture, though, and I don't quite understand her. Maybe Griffin doesn't either.

I think I agree with you on the part of Joy needing Jack to make the gesture. You are so right, we are in Jack's head, and I fear he is in mine a bit too much. lolol Joy does remain an incomplete picture to me. Russo has been entirely unfair to the readers to throw only bits and pieces to us about Joy. She supposedly comes from a less if at all dysfunctional family, until chapter 9, then all hell breaks loose. She is suppose to be the victim, yet Russo throws us she was in love with Tommy for some time. grrrrrr She doesn't have a singel opinion voiced to Jack on his mother or father whatsoever openly to the reader, until chapter 9, when she finally says to Jack, pg. 261 Joy warned him not to press the issue. Laura was old and smart enough to sift ideas, and his mother needn't be treated like a venomous snake." Halelujah!!!!! She finally voices an opinion! This has to help Jack in some way realize just because his mother was a monster in his eyes, he does NOT have to pass that on to his child. Joy is saying, let Laura draw her own conclucions and feel her own feelings. AMEN!!!

I still see Tommy as a cad. He was there for Joy during her pregnancy more than Jack, but then he was trying to win points because he was in love with her. Did anyone notice Tommy was not invited to Laura's wedding? Why didn't Joy want to be around Tommy, she has had NO problem keeping him as her confidante all these years. She was phoning him and giving him updates on her marriage etc., and he was calling her? Maybe Jack did want to see if he would notice the attraction she may still have for Tommy, or maybe he wanted to see if they could all remain comfortable friends now that Joy admitted she had feelings for Tommy. Who knows, either way it was twisted for Russo to add this. As if he hasn't put enough defects on Jack already. lol

Its pretty clear Tommy is constantly wanting to interfere and call Joy with whatever news he learns from Jack. Jack says NO. Jack continuoulsy keeps trying to shelter Joy from all the stuff he is going through. Tommy realizes Joy and Jack should be sharing this stuff, communicating with each other, be there in support of each other. Tommy realizes Joy has given up as much as Jack has, and is waiting for Jack to reach out and let her in. Oh what a complicated relationship. But then like many couples, its about waiting for the other to make the first move. In this case, maybe I can understand why Joy doesn't. But I sure do feel sad for Jack too, because he seems so incapable of doing it. This is why the scene with Jack and Laura was so touching for me. I will take this from the book and cherish the fact Russo, having two daughters of his own, they getting married, and him knowing what its like for a Dad on that day, he decided to allow Laura and her Dad to have this very touching, loving, special talk.

Thank you Russo for that. I see my husband with our grown daughter and remember the two of them on her wedding day, and it still warms my heart. She will always be Daddy's little girl in his eyes. Jack got that special feeling he had been wanting from Laura throughout the book. Laura needed this as much as Jack.

Russo has been void with tender emotions in this book, and has only given us glances of what Joy, Jack and Laura had good as a family. The morning after Jack and Joy made love and this scene are the two I have connected to this family as a loving family. This gave me hope.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 22, 2009, 06:54:57 PM

I automatically assumed that the reason for Tommy not attending Laura's wedding was because it was his choice not to go. I'm sure that he told Joy, during one of their many conversations, that he really did not belong there.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 22, 2009, 09:14:44 PM

What about the guest Griffin brought with him, who is not coming to the dinner and whom Joy seems to know? Did you guess who it is?

To invite Tommy to Laura's wedding would have been absurd. I'm sure Tommy never expected it. Joy had no wish to reconnect; for her it was over. It is over for all practical purposes. Why should we keep holding Joy's feet to the fire?

Bellamarie, the vehemence of your repeated criticisms of Mr. Russo astonishes and, frankly, embarrasses me. After all, we are discussing a book, not the author.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 22, 2009, 10:51:42 PM

Traude,

Quote

Bellamarie, the vehemence of your repeated criticisms of Mr. Russo astonishes and, frankly, embarrasses me. After all, we are discussing a book, not the author.

I feel I was giving Russo compliments, no "vehemence" whatsoever, and am puzzled with your post. I loved that he allowed Joy to finally have a voice, I loved how Laura and Jack had that beautiful father/daughter moment, and I recall in Russo's interview how he, himself mentions his two daughters, their weddings and how he felt. I loved how Jack showed his emotions to Laura. If anything I felt chapter 9 was showing the "LOVE" the three of them have for one another. It gave me hope.

I think we have all commented on the author, his life, thoughts, writing style, his interviews, etc. A writer is open to criticism, and compliments. I feel I have been fair in both. I think he would be highly honored to have feedback from his readers, good, bad, or indifferent. Since this is my first time ever reading his work, I would give him a high rating for the emotions he was able to bring out in each of us. Just because we don't all agree, does not render you to take it personal. We've picked the author's brain as well as the protaganist's. It would be remiss of us to discuss a book, without discussing the author.

I hope you have a peaceful night, after your busy sleepover. I have grandchildren and can appreciate you feeling a bit frazzled after they leave, but oh the fun when they are there! :)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 23, 2009, 08:43:09 AM

Bear in mind, that while we get a first-hand look at Jack's thinking as
narrator, we see Joy only through Jack's eyes. Looking at Joy's actions,
rather than just Jack's opinion of them, one can see posible alternate
interpretations. It's hard to know the truth of a person when one sees
them only at second-hand. We don't really know what Joy 'should have done' and didn't.
I think, BELLE, that sometimes all one can do is offer. I have seen
clearly that pushing one's 'help' on someone who doesn't want it can simply drive them away. A teen-ager is a perfect example. One can only do so much, go so far, then one must simply step back and let them learn the hard way.
Generally speaking, the knots in a personality acquired during childhood
may require more professional help than even a loving partner can offer.

PATH.

Quote

"This is characteristic of him. He's always waiting for her to make the gesture first, to give in."

Exactly, PAT. You nailed that one.

TRAUDE, too.

Quote

"Who, I wonder, is more concerned about Joy, Tommy or Griffin?"

Tommy, obviously. Griffin is too needy; his own happiness has
always come before Joy's, judging from the pattern of their marriage
from the beginning. I truly believe he is unaware of this, and sees his
actions, with some justification, as a wonderful improvement over his
parents'.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 23, 2009, 08:57:59 AM

Belle--I am wondering why you are so "down" on Joy and have sympathy for Jack, and very little empathy for Joy and Tommy. I don't have my book to refer back to, but I don't remember Joy and Tommy ever physically acting on their love. They did not betray Jack in that sense, and Tommy was always trying to get Griffin to express his feelings to Joy. It seems to me like Tommy was a friend to both of them. He couldn't help loving Joy and wanted her to be happy in her marriage. He cared about Jack, too. Why wouldn't Joy love Tommy? He was very supportive of her. I find it surprising that you find Tommy a "cad". Jack was shutting Laura out of his life, by not sharing with her. I certainly don't think Jack was trying to shelter Joy from anything. He was simply playing his same old mind games. Tommy was trying to get him to open up more. If Tommy was actively trying to break up their marriage, Jack would not have remained friends with him, and Tommy certainly would have made his move on Joy when she and Jack separated. However, that's just my opinion. My goodness, why ever would Griffin want to keep his mother's death from Joy? Naturally Tommy would feel that she should know.

Alf, I also assumed that Tommy did not attend the wedding by choice.

Belonging to an on-line reading group has the disadvantage of not being able to hear the tone of voices or see the expressions on faces, and being able to immediately dispell any misinterpretations of statements.
What approximate pages are we up to now??
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 23, 2009, 09:34:03 AM

Well, said, SALLY. Tommy was indeed a true friend to both Jack and Joy. I never saw anything in his behavior for him to be ashamed of, or
Joy either.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 23, 2009, 10:07:28 AM

Sally, chapter 9 in my book is pages 165-206, and ends With Jared knocking Griffin unconscious. I agree with whoever complained about only the right hand pages being numbered. Every single page should be numbered on the outside corner, no artsy stuff.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 23, 2009, 10:33:50 AM

Ladies, I suppose we are going to have to agree to disagree with how we see Joy, Jack and Tommy's relationship. I'm okay with that. I truly respect each person's individual feelings. Afterall, we bring to the discussion what he know, experience, and personally feel.

Babi,

Quote

I truly believe he is unaware of this, and sees his actions, with some justification, as a wonderful improvement over his parents'.

I sincerely believe Jack thought he was protecting Joy from the anguish of having to deal with his dysfunctional parents. Right or wrong for him doing it, it is what he expressed many times in the book as his motives for NOT including her.

Babi, Yes, I agree, sometimes, all we can do is offer. I totally agree with you about the fact, sometimes you have to step back and let them learn the hard way. I have done this with all three of my children as they went through their teen years, maturing into adults. Amen they found their way, after a few lumps. lol Jack could have spared himself so much if only he could have reached out, allowed himself to be loved. What a sad, complicated life this character was given.

But to lighten things up.....there are plenty of laughs to share in chapter 9. Joy's family has turned into the National Lampoons!!!! ;D

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 23, 2009, 11:39:31 AM

Great posts to read this morning...and I guess I agree with all of you.
from Bellamarie

Quote

I sincerely believe Jack thought he was protecting Joy from the anguish of having to deal with his dysfunctional parents

Yep, I think Jack was trying to distance himself and his wife and daughter from his toxic parents. I think Joy was dealing with Jack's "distance" from his own happiness as best she could.

As Babi said:

Quote

Bear in mind, that while we get a first-hand look at Jack's thinking as
narrator, we see Joy only through Jack's eyes. Looking at Joy's actions,
rather than just Jack's opinion of them, one can see posible alternate
interpretations. It's hard to know the truth of a person when one sees
them only at second-hand.

We only see Joy through Jack's eyes. She has no voice here...only an incomplete echo as filtered through Jack's head...and his excuses/justifications.

from Babi and Sally: Babi

Quote

Tommy was indeed a true friend to both Jack and Joy. I never saw anything in his behavior for him to be ashamed of, or
Joy either.

I think Tommy was trying to get Jack to see what he had...the love of Joy...and to appreciate it. There might have been more...had Joy responded to Tommy, but I don't believe she did.

No, I can't imagine bringing a guest of the opposite gender to my daughter's wedding while being separated (not divorced) from my spouse. What was he thinking? Is he still so emotionally distant...or is he so emotionally needy that he can't face his wife and daughter without some feeble backup?

Nope, I didn't begin to guess the identity of the guest.

Jack, in my opinion, continues to be an example of what can help to a bright, potentially lovable person, when that person has been denied love, nurturing and emotional stability as a child.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 23, 2009, 12:04:57 PM

Jane,

Quote

Jack, in my opinion, continues to be an example of what can help to a bright, potentially lovable person, when that person has been denied love, nurturing and emotional stability as a child.

Oh I couldn't have said it any better, and couldn't agree with you more Jane. I guess that's why as frustrated as I feel with Jack, I also have such a compassion for him. Maybe I have been more tough on Joy, because I saw her coming from a more stable, healthy family. Although chapter 9's fiascos make me pause.....Just kidding.

Jack and Margarette is so silly, I totally shook my head and kept turning the pages. Why not throw in adultery, a fling, a ridiculous affair or what ever you would call it, at this point. And no less, bring her to the wedding. Yet, he holds Joy's hand walking. Oh Mama Mia! lololol

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 23, 2009, 02:21:19 PM

Correction needed for my sloppy proofreading:

my own comment:

Quote

Jack, in my opinion, continues to be an example of what can ~~help~~ happen to a bright, potentially

Marguerite doesn't work for me either...UNLESS it's the only woman in LA Jack has met...and that was the year before at Table 17... hmmmm....

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 23, 2009, 08:21:07 PM

Agreed Jane, Marguerite doesn't work, nor does her EX. Neither did the guy who used to BARK at Laura.
Why, I ask were they even placed as characters in this book?
The three of them stand out like sore thumbs, not belonging anywhere. That's my complaint with Russo. WHY???
I'm sorry that I don't have my book with me out here because I can not remember the proper names of these improper folks.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 23, 2009, 10:23:57 PM

It was at the bar Jack first met Marguerite, she tried to get Jack to engage with her to figure out the "smirt" saying. Then, ironically, Marguerite is at Kelsey's wedding, sitting at the same table #17, as Joy, Jack and Sunny, and low and behold....we learn she is living in Jack and Joy's house they sold. It is mentioned Jack and Joy had moved before meeting the couple who bought their house. Now alas, Jack and Marguerite are together at Laura's wedding. It just was not believable for me, that is why I thought it silly. Too many coincidences to bring these two together for no real apparent reason, but a short little tryst. Russo did say this book was satirical humor, although I don't see any humor here, because its hurtful for Joy.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 23, 2009, 10:53:54 PM

Many thanks for your posts.

Babi, how true. I'm in total agreement. What counts are actions.
Here are some of Joy's actions, revealed in Chapter 9.
* it was Joy who had talked her angry siblings out of boycotting Harve's and Dot's wedding. (Isn't that a hiarious name for her?)
*Joy calmed the family members when they went ballistic over at the news of her and Griffin's separation.
* Joy was the constant conciliatory influence in their arriage all along.
Griffin was not there for her when she was pregnant. All he could think of were his mother's words "Now she's got her way".

*In January of the year when Griffin's mother was in hospice care, Joy had offered to come to see her. Typically, Griffin had not accept the offer even though he desperately wanted to. That is perverse, I believe.

AND it invites a comparison with what happend on the last evening during the "Summer of the Brownings". Even though he 12-year old Jack wanted nothing more than to have dinner with the Brownings, he invented the lie of dinner with his parents, both seriously discomfited as a result. A deliberate, even perverse fabrication. I do not believe this is 'part of the 'adolescent growing up process', but rather that it is a trait. We see it in this story time and again.

Sally, you've perfectly expressed my take on Tommy and Griffin; I see no need to repeat a single word. My apologies for not getting back earlier to your question of where we are at this point.
We are still talking about Chapter 9, titled Rehearsal, It is a particularly complex chapter with multiple flashbacks. It begins with Griffin's drive to Maine for his daughter's wedding and ends with the almost slapstick events after the reception.
Though pages may differ in printings, I believe, and would certainly hope !, the content of the chapters is the same.

I've been sitting here for some time summarizing what all transpires in this complex and, rereading it, realize it is too long. So I'm editing as I go over it.

The first paragraph of Chapter 9 is a lyrical ode to Maine. where Griffin is headed for Laura's wedding.
Soon there's a flashback informing the reader of the separation, Griffin's move to L.A., and the failure of the cable TV movie venture.

Flashback within flashback[/color]: Call from 'buddy" Gladys informing Griffin of his mother's hospitalization. Flight to Indiana; awkward parting curbside between him and Tommy.

[Contemporary story line: Griffin's arrival at the Hedges resort; talk with Joy; her expressed wish for a civilized party; her gentle offer to help with the bill for Laura's wedding if needed. She knows that his assignments have been few and far between since he and Tommy were fired.

Flashback: mention of Griffin's trips from L.A. to Indiana; major transitions between mother's hospital; rehab; return home with hospice volunteers; finally to the hospice wing of the hospitalwith full nursing.

Flashback: :Sources of income, poor: in January a couple of film-school classes, adjunct status; a quickie dialogue rewrite. On his own. Since Griffin moved out of Tommy's apartment, little contact. Occasional drinks, always an early night.

From the book, "Griffin knew his old friend was at a loss to understand why Griffin didn't just tuck his tail between his legs and go home and beg Joy's forgiveness, as husbands do in his circumstances, if they had any brains.
'You want to end up alone?' he asked one night. 'Is that it?' No. But Griffin was hard-pressed to articulate what it was, exactly.
[/i]
Contemporary story line.
"I don't want any embarrassment for Laura," Joy was saying.
And there was Laura. "Daddy", his daughter said, choking on the word, and Griffin was incapable of the slightest utterance." [/i]
Next father-daughter walked through the dense maze of the Hedges resort. Laura is understandably emotional, and says at one point that she's thought a lot of Grandma lately. Why, Griffin asks.
"Seeing her there last December," Laura answers, "all the tubes and the oxygen. She looked so tiny and wasted away."

Flashback on a particularly bad day for his mother, Griffin found a woman sitting at her narrow bedside her back to the door. She'd never had visitors other than him.
"Joy, he thought, and felt some ice dam in his heart break apart at the possibiity."
It was Laura. She had only one hour, and his mother said she wanted to be alone with her.

Flashback within a flashback. His mother's brief visit when Laura was a few months old and spit up in her.
Her interest -- until it came time for Laura to choose a college. When mother planned the Grand American Colege Tour. And Griffin exploded.
" You have to apologize", Joy said. He did not.

Contemporary. .Laura tells Griffin what she and his mother talked about.
Return to the festivities.

Everyone seemed to be at their best behavior. At first. Greeting Harve and Dot. A menacing greeting of Jason, or is it Jared? (One of them had threatened Griffin with bodily harm months before.)
And, Joy has brought a guest (!) . Brian Fynch, dean of admissions at the college.
Griffin is instantly jealous, suspicious, paranoid, a reader might think. Dubs him Ringo, thinks the man is a putz.

Some guests linger, adults and children, and engage in a volleyball game. There's a budding 7-year old bully; Harve is momentarily unattended, drives off the handicap ramp, loses control and ends up in the yew hedge. Griffin tries to come to his aid and is punched out by Jared or Jason.
No retelling could do justice to the story and the way it is told.

There are two more chapters left: Chapter 10, Pistolary, and Chapter 11, Plumb Some - 54 pages, and a lot more pertinent information. I'll review and discus them last with you, and there will be time for you to add your own reflections.

Many thanks to all of you and your valuable, wonderful posts. It's too late for further comments posts, but tomorrow is another day!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 24, 2009, 12:34:23 AM

I was just re reading the part about BrianFynch, (Joy's date for the wedding, dean of admissions and Joy's boss.) After Joy has introduced 'Jack' to Brian, he thinks, He didn't realize he'd been half hoing she'd introduce him as her husband (which he still was, after all) until she didn't.

I am cracking up with Jack's conversation he begins having with his deceased mother. He has nicknamed Brian Fynch "Ringo, because of his haircut early Beatles. lol. Sure sign of jealousy.

Joy had introduced, him as her "friend." pg. 270 At any rate, he and this 'friend' are chatting amiably for the last ten minutes. Ringo claimed they'd actually been introduced last spring ("No reason for you to remember") when he came on board. Came on board? his mother snorted. What is he a pirate? Ringo goes on to say His "team" in admissions was firt-rate, though its star, "just between us," was Joy. (Oh, you smarmy bastard, both son and mother concluded in the same instant.) lolol This guy is really getting to Jack. lolol

pg. 272 Griffin smiled, now certain that he (and his mother) were right about Ringo's character. The implied omniscience, the overfamiliarity, the flattery....what a putz. He thought of the elderly woman he'd spoken to in Truro this time last year who'd been looking for the right occasion to use fart-hammer. Well, here it was.

Oh my gosh this was cracking me up. It's obvious Jack is jealous of Fynch and so he nicknames him, and enlists his mother's voice to support him. lolol

Fart-hammer.....that is just too funny. ;D ;D

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 24, 2009, 08:33:53 AM

Some things about Mother Griffin's hospice time really struck me.
Like the 'morphine narrative'. “The most compelling thing about the Morphine Narrative was his Mother’s need to tell it.”
Why, do you think? Was it true? Was it a need to defend her life? To get said all the things she didn’t say at the time, all the ‘I should have said’s’? Actually, I can understand that possibility. All the times I kept my mouth shut to keep the peace, or to spare someone’s feelings at the expense of my own. Not that I think that was Mother Griffin’s problem.

A harsh comment, but with some truth in it. Mother Griffin: “How does having you sit there day after day make me any less alone?” The two of them have so little to share, so little in common. There is no sense of companionship.

Off that subject, there is the ‘monster’ kid. Don’t you just long to pick them up and warm their britches for them? I often want to tell such a wimp of a parent, 'Hey, do you want to teach your kid that actions have consequences, or do you want to wait for a policeman and a judge to do it?'

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 24, 2009, 09:04:29 AM

Babi,

Quote

Don’t you just long to pick them up and warm their britches for them?I often want to tell such a wimp of a parent, 'Hey, do you want to teach your kid that actions have consequences, or do you want to wait for a policeman and a judge to do it?'

I so agree with you. Before I began my day care business, I was in a private elementary school, K - 8 for fifteen years. Oh how the times changed. Dealing with parents today is a real trip. I have to bite my tongue so many times as I stand and watch a parent try reasoning, when a good stern voice, or a tap on the bottom would suffice. I want to say, Who is the adult? The other day, I stood and watched out my front door while Grandma was attempting to get the 3 yr old to listen to her to come into my house. She stood stationary, using the voice of reason, "Adam, don't go by the street, Adam come on we have to go in the house, Adam, no, don't go by the street." Well, needless to say, Adam is now stepping into the street. I opened my door, ran to him, with a very stern voice and said, "Adam, stop!" He stopped in his tracks, I walked to him and took his hand and walked him into my house. The Grandmother just stood in one spot this entire time, and looked at me and said, "He just doesn't listen to me." grrrrr

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 24, 2009, 11:59:48 AM

Babi-

Quote

A harsh comment, but with some truth in it. Mother Griffin: “How does having you sit there day after day make me any less alone?” The two of them have so little to share, so little in common. There is no sense of companionship.

Babi, there is a great deal of truth in that statement. I have long believed that people die the same way that they lived.
Mother Griffin (and I use that term loosely Jane) distanced herself from her son and husband their entire lives. Why should it be any different in death? I would think that the Morphine would make her a bit more sensitive and introspective, but why would she?
You can't change the spots on the leopard!
It took me many years to feel sympathy or understanding for my mother and that only happened in the last few days of her dying. She didn't speak but I did. It was cathartic. I was waiting for Jack to speak up and vent his confusion.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 24, 2009, 07:07:36 PM

Babi,

Quote

Why, do you think? Was it true? Was it a need to defend her life? To get said all the things she didn’t say at the time, all the ‘I should have said’s’?

Jack's mother was intent on leaving Jack with the final picture of her and his father being together in the end. I got a sense that she was convincing herself, even more so, than him. She says they made love, and it was more intense, because they were sneaking around from Claudia. I think being an egocentric person, she had to see her husband needing, desiring and wanting her. pg. 288 "He'd be here," she assured him, smiling, "if he wasn't dead." Unlike so many of her smiles, this one was neither sly nor lewd. Beatific(making happy, finding pleasure) was more like it. And for that reason he said, "I know Mom. I know."

At this point, I feel Jack has to give her the peace and pleasure, regardless of all her faults and flaws. He needs to give her this peace, not only for her sake, but even more so, for his. IMO, I think Joy, if she were there, would have encouraged him to do this, she and Laura would be proud of him for this. Sometimes, forgiveness, is more for you, than the one who has hurt you.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 24, 2009, 09:17:38 PM

Babi, good point : mother's morphine-induced confessions.
Alf, a professional, confirmed that such revelations are not unusual (not to put words in her mouth :))

Are the mother's real in this case? ? We don't know. As to why, in mother's case, we can only guess. For reasons unknown she may have wanted to set the record straight, or was she just boasting? At first Griffin did not believe any of it.
On what in my book is page 196 in Chapter 9 we read,

"As Christmas bore down on them, exhaustion, fueled by sleepless nights and cafeteria food, began to take its toll, and Griffin felt his tenuous grip on reality begin to fray, as if he, too, were being dosed with morphine. ..."

He had been in a state of impermanence since the separation from Joy, his earnings unpredictable after the failed cable TV movie deal collapsed, his mother's illness and decline.
\
How rational was he?
What can we make of the caustic remarks coming from his dead mother's ashes?

Consider what preceded Jared's (or was it Jason's?) punch a the end of the dinner -
Griffin looked at the twin and his mother said "Would you look at these two morons?".

Could he himself have uttered the words, inciting, provoking the punch?
What was Griffin's state of mind?

Another point: In the pre-dinner talk Joy tells Jack,
"And you know about the ceremony, right? That there's a minister? Nothing in your face, but God will be invoked."
"Which?" (he asked).

And his mother's voice says "The Protestant one. The god of gated communities and domino theories. Jesus. With J, like the rest of them."

How much contempt is expressed in those words - whoever spoke them!
Is Griffin is an atheist ? Not that it is important in the context of our discussion.

From all we've read so far, Griffin is a cynic, deep down an angry man, punctilious, forever dissatisfied, jealous, and possessive -- a proverbial misanthropist.

More as soon as I can.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 25, 2009, 01:45:08 AM

Traude,

Quote

How rational was he? What was Griffin's state of mind?
Another point: In the pre-dinner talk Joy tells Jack,"And you know about the ceremony, right? That there's a minister? Nothing in your face, but God will be invoked."
"Which?" (he asked). And his mother's voice says "The Protestant one. The god of gated communities and domino theories. Jesus. With J, like the rest of them."

I saw all of the above as the humor, Russo said the book was about. The Jesus with a "J" fallling in line with all the "J" names in Joy's family was perfect! lolol I never once questioned his frame of mind, or religious beliefs, because all hell has broken loose. It's a slapstick comedy from beginning to end. I was laughing out loud throughout this. Can you imagine sitting in a movie theater watching all of this happen? I can't wait to see if they do make a movie of it. People will be rolling in the aisles. Those twins had me cracking up. I would have preferred Jack nicknaming them, Dumb and Dumber, rather than morons. LOLOL

Traude,

Quote

From all we've read so far, Griffin is a cynic, deep down an angry man, punctilious, forever dissatisfied, jealous, and possessive -- a proverbial misanthropist.

I haven't seen anger in Jack, if anything I think under the circumstances, he has shown the patience of a mule, especially with his nutty mother. Cynic, (yes,) punctilious (precise) I suppose, forever dissatisfied, (yes,) jealous, (I saw Tommy the jealous character) but then Ringo does bring out the jealousy in Jack. Possessive, I don't see unless not wanting to share Joy with her family, and proverbial misanthropist, yes, he does have a general distrust of people.

But with all the negative qualities you have pointed out, I have to say I also see Jack's positive qualities. He's a loyal son, a loving husband and father, a sought after Professor, hard worker, a loyal friend, and is sensitive to others around him such as Margareitte, Sunny and Harve.

Hmmmm...almost sounds like any normal person, with a dysfunctional upbringing. lol I'm way past my bedtime. I'm surprised I have not bumped into Gumtree, our night fairy on the other side of the globe.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 25, 2009, 09:56:17 AM

I'm with you, BELLE. 'grrrr!' I agree with this, also: At this point,
I feel Jack has to give her the peace and pleasure, regardless of all
her faults and flaws. When someone is dying, you have to let go of your
quarrels and losses, for your own sake as well as theirs.

TRAUDE, Griffin's (Russo’s?) cynicism is plain here. “..dreams embodied a paradox, that they, like love itself, were at once real and chimerical.” It’s like his ‘revelation’ that Joy’s mother Jill also had an affair. He seems resolved that every marriage must have an unfaithful partner, possibly two. Jill seemed to me a person most unlikely to have an affair, though I admit Harve would be hard to live with. I can't help thinkin that some of Russo's views are showing here.
You are right; Jack does have a number of good qualities. I'll have to
shift focus and look at those. :)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 25, 2009, 10:37:47 AM

Just going "off topic" here to wish everyone here a most happy and blessed Thanksgiving. I'm looking forward to getting back to the discussion on Friday.

A Happy and Blessed Thanksgiving to ALL

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 25, 2009, 03:54:56 PM

Thank you, Jane, and may you and everyone have a fun filled day. Unlike Jack and Joy, my entire family shares the holiday, half with us and the other half with the in laws. Except this year my daughter and her hubby can not make it up from Florida due to his job. But we share the day with phone conversation and spiritual togetherness. Thanks be to God!

Gobble, gobble, gobble, have a Happy Turkey feast day! And don't forget the pumpkin pie!!!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 25, 2009, 06:50:35 PM

Time out for the Holiday :)

HAVE A WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING, EVERYONE

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 27, 2009, 10:50:32 PM

Thanksgiving is behind us and I hope you had as a wonderful a time as I did. It was special for me because my daughter lives out of state and cannot join us every year. Each time it is an incredible joy to see her, but saying goodbye is not getting any easier.

If you're ready, let's pick up where we left off. We have three days left, and we know the ending. But it's worth to review some of the new 'revelations'.

General confusion reigned after the collapse of the handicap ramp. Harve landed in the yew hedge, supported by a branch, the wheelchair on top of him. Efforts by the twins to shake him loose failed because "The hedge was far too thick ... and its branches seemed naturally designed to funnel human victims straight down into its dark, dense center."
(Marvelous phrasing, this, I think, on the first page of Chapter 10.)

At first nobody noticed Griffin lying unconscious under the hedge, only his feet sticking out. Later,
despite his protestations that he was "fine", Laura and Andy took him to the small regional hospital. The walking wounded arrived in waves. Joy waited until her father was extricated from the hedge; she rode in the ambulance with him. She needed assistance herself.

Griffin found her in an examination room and wondered why she was wearing a hospital gown for a broken finger. Because, Joy said, she needed stitches for a deep gash under the breast. Joy told him that "Ringo" had fainted dead away on looking at her grotesquely bent finger.

Then Joy told Griffin about the "pistolary" found after Jill's death. Her father had been loathe to throw anything of hers away, which annoyed Dot. She helped him look through some things, and there was a bundle of lover letters. Joy's sister June saved the day. She told her father that Jill had been writing a romance novel. Harve cried. Deep down he did not believe it.

But no matter how much we can rue something said or done only to regret it the moment it is out of our mouth, some things cannot be retracted. Even a small cut leaves a scar.

There's no resolution either way between Joy and Griffin. But he wedding will take place the next day.

Griffin returns to the B & B where the guest he has brought is waiting for him:Marguerite.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 28, 2009, 07:20:46 AM

Straude, Thank you for being our "leader". You managed to keep us on track when we got too hung up on one aspect or another. I appreciate your time and effort on this project.

Griffin's thought, "The only things that were supposed to happen were things you made happen. He saw now that it was all he was going to get, probably because it was all he deserved" ... a self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps??

I think this book was well-written, but I did not enjoy it. Griffin exhausted me with all his whinings, his negativism, and his game playing. He was miserable because he stubbornly refused to let go of past wrongs.

I found this book really depressing. Some peope thought it was a dark comedy. Although I found parts of it to be humorous; on the whole it was pitifully sad and frustrating.

On that note, I am really looking forward to some Christmas "fluff" books. I need some light hearted humor!!
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 28, 2009, 10:39:54 AM

Sally, thank you for posting. I totally agree with you. The last chapter still needs to be reviewed, and I promise to be back this evening. Iwill be back this evening.

Thank you again.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 28, 2009, 11:13:46 AM

I have to agree with SALLY. I probably would not have read this book
if it were not under discussion. The humor was there, but even that
tended to be depressing. In a nutshell, who and what we are forms our
lives.

Ah, Marguerite. Just when we thought Mother Griffin was the worst ever, we learn about Marguerite's mother. Her father committed suicide, and her mother says to the little girl Marguerite, “There. Happy now?” It’s hard to imagine a mother that cruel.

Does this resonate with you? “Late middle age, he was coming to understand, was a time of life when everything was predictable and yet somehow you failed to see any of it coming.”

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 28, 2009, 01:33:31 PM

I agree totally! If it were not for Traude leading this discussion I would not have joined in. I have never been a Russo fan and after this novel, I doubt that I will ever read another of his stories.
Traude, you are a wonderful facillitator and I commend you for sticking with it and us!
I remember leading a discussion one time and I absolutely hated the story; sticking with it was not easy, so again, I tip my hat to you and your readers.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 28, 2009, 08:11:32 PM

Babi, Andy, and Sally again, your comments are much appreciated.
Of course I concur with your findings and reservations; I have some of my own. But I'd like to first finish the review of Chapter 11 and hope you'll indulge me.

Chapter 11 brings the story and us full circle, just look at the title: Plumb Some :D!
The term was a lesson Griffin learned at a summer job while in HS, about the variable degree of balance required to even things out, That degree is measurable with a plumb. However balance is not always perfect, and plumb some will hold well enough. (Meaning that mending something is better than tearing it apart?)

The relationship between Marguerite and Griffin probably started when he returned to L.A. She provided him with the emotional support he needed during his mother's illness. The name chosen for this character is perfect. The flower of that name evokes sun, summer, happiness, contentment.
And that is exactly what Marguerite gave Griffin, plus finding the perfect individual watery resting places for his mother and father. A long-delayed duty finally carried out. His own future less clear to him.

Marguerite realized much sooner that Griffin would never be able to say "I love you" to her because he still hankered for Joy, and that there would be no permanent relationship for them. So she took matters into her own hands.

Babi, oh yes. The sentence you quoted is so very true. (It reminds me of a tile I brought home from Holland one year, which says "Too soon old, too late smart". Sad but true.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 28, 2009, 08:47:40 PM

To me plumb some meant that situations, lives, people, circumstances, etc. don't have to be perfect to work just fine. People can have flaws and still find joy and happiness, if they seek it/wish it. I'm a believer that people make their own happiness/joy. I don't think other people can make others happy; it's what you do yourself for yourself.

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 29, 2009, 02:08:40 AM

After having three days off, a wonderful holiday, my Christmas tree and decorations up, I hardly can bring myself to go back to this book. It's pretty clear from the beginning most of us did not like this book. It was just too depressing in the first three chapters, and it stayed there throughout. I commend all of you, who did stick with the discussion, and yes, Traude, I know how difficult it must have been for you. We were about as negative as Griffin was most of the time. My apologies if it made your job tougher. But, I must say I came away in the end, learning from this book and from each post. That I would say is a successful discussion.

I do want to say I loved the fact Joy admitted to Griffin she was wrong in not trying to allow herself to be a part of his phone calls with his mother and the entire relationship. This was a bone I seemed to knaw and did not want to let go of, (Joy's responsibility to her marriage.) I am glad Russo did not leave it unresolved. pg. 318 "I never should've let you do that alone. I told myself it was the way you wanted it, that it was just you going back into that room of yours, the ones where I've never been allowed, and closing the door behind you. I told myself I'd come if you asked, but not until. That, was wrong. And, just so you know, you aren't the only one your daughter's mad at." "I'll speak to her." "There's no need. She loves us both. I think she tried not to for a while, but it didn't work." "She's her mother's daughter."

Joy and Griffin seemed to have an epiphany in ch. 10. pg. 320 "Again it occured to him how different Maine was from the Cape. What would'v happened if he and Joy had honeymooned here, as she'd wanted to, instead of Truro? Would they have drawn up a different accord?

Russo is tying up all the loose ends in ch. 10.

pg.371 Jack on the phone to Joy, And here's the really weird part," he said, unsure whether he was just talking to keep her on the line or, in some roundabout fashion, finally for a while before that, I've been wondering ...." He stopped here, unsure how to continue, though what he'd been wondering couldn't have been simpler. "I've been wondering if maybe I loved them. It's crazy, I know, but...do you think that's possible?" "Oh, Jack," Joy said, as if she would've liked to ask where in the world he'd done his graduate work. "Of course you did. What do you think I've been trying to tell you?"

"Is there anything left, Joy, or did I kill it all?" "You came close," she finally admitted, sniffling. "But no. You killed only the part that could be killed."

Jack has finally come to terms with his parents, his relationship with them, and can now lay them to rest.

pg. 373 I think maybe I'm going to be okay, Mom, he ventured. Still no response. I guess what I'm saying is its okay for you to be dead now. Both of you. In fact, he added, afraid he'd given them too much leeway, I insist.

This ending reminds me of a song called, "Puff the Magic Dragon" by Peter, Paul & Mary....The lyrics say. "One grey night it happened, Jackie Paper came no more . And puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar. The monsters were only in Jack's head, and he finally realized he could slay them.

Yes, Plumb Some...no one is perfect, we all have our dragons to slay, our demons to face, but ultimately, we learn that eveyone has flaws, faults, dysfunctional families and chaos in their lives, it can be balanced out, (get plumb some)......and we can have our happiness.

Ironically, the bird poops on Jack in the first chapter during his phone call with his mother and the last words of the book are, "A fat gull circling overhead screeched a loud objection. Griffin watched it warily, but it was just a stupid bird, and after a moment, no harm done, it flew away.

Did the bird pooping on him represent his mother shitting on him, and did the screeching seagull flying away represent one last screech from his mother, and him being able to see it's just a stupid bird, no harm done, She is gone like the gull... flew away!
Russo's satirical humor, I suspect.

Thank you Traude, I know you and I were not, Plumb some, but....No harm done. ;) Ciao!

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 29, 2009, 06:58:12 AM

I have belonged to my ftf reading group since its founding 12 years ago. Looking back at all the books we have read during the years; I realized that the best discussions usually came from books that most of the group didn't particularly enjoy reading. This book certainly fits into that category. I have enjoyed reading all your comments--even those I did not agree with. Books certainly do speak to different people in different ways, don't they?

I realize now that the other Russo books I read all featured disfunctional families to one extent or another. It will probably be a very long time before I read another book by him. There are so many books out there and not nearly enough time to read them.

Right now I need to feed my soul with light-hearted, warm and satisfyingly predictable books (not cheesy ones, though). Maybe I am reverting back to my childhood with "once upon a time" and "happily ever after". The ending of a book should be worth the journey it took to get there!

Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 29, 2009, 09:16:12 AM

I am in total agreement, JANE. You cannot make someone happy. There are people who are determined to be negative and 'put-upon'. And there are those who depend on others to make them happy...an unbearable burden, really.
I see 'plumb some' just as you do. There is very little that is 'perfect'
in our lives, but for the most part it is 'plumb' enough to get on with.

Bella:

Quote

But, I must say I came away in the end, learning from this book and from each post. That I would say is a successful discussion

Bella said it very well, TRAUDE. It has been, IMO, a successful discussion.
Thank you for all your hard work.

Bella has another quote that really summed up for me the major weakness in Jack and Joy's marriage.

Quote

"..that it was just you going back into that room of of yours, the ones where I've never been allowed, and closing the door behind you."

That, of course, is what Bella has been saying all along. Permitting the
barriers to remain unchallenged is deadly in a marriage.

SALLY:

Quote

The ending of a book should be worth the journey it took to get there!

HEAR, HEAR!, SALLY.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ginny on November 29, 2009, 10:28:45 AM

Traude, I think you, and our perspicacious readers here have done a magnificent job with this book. You mention you'd like to look at Chapter 11.

Here at the end, following the Ordeal of the Hedge, which has to be comic relief, as 11 starts, we have two parents in the trunk, Harve (at least in a dream) in the back seat, and his mother chattering on. When Marguerite says Voila, his i mother says "Oh my," Griffin's mother said, "she's bilingual."

That's nasty. "Mom" is dead.

This sort of bizarre thing, what is it intended to prove?

Has he turned INTO his mother?

Then we have the vignette of the Christmas tree. Why is IT here? Did this book totally get away from Russo? Griffin's Christmas memories have tears running down his face.

Why? Because he felt warm and happy despite the "drunken kaleidoscopic proceedings?"

Mom and Dad are now scattered and Mom has shut up on the Bar sign. Why?

Harold's back, too pat?

We've got lots on the bridge again and his driving, his journey, "the idea of crossing the bridge of his unhappy childhood one last time was appealing."

He's in an accident, he calls Joy. Would he have called Joy if Marguerite had not left with Harold? He realizes he loved his parents, his mother's talking again. He's feeling plumb. We seem to have a resolution here, but how did we get to it?

It's OK for his mother to go and lie still because he's going to be all right. All along he's seen her and then Marguerite as a caring set of Guardian angels, he says so in Marguerite's case.

He's plumb at last.

Does the reader think Russo has tied this all up satisfactorily? I am wondering what the climax was?

Is Russo's book "plumb," "plumb some" or not at all?

You've certainly made a wonderful discussion out of this book. :)

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 29, 2009, 05:52:31 PM

Ginny,

Quote

Does the reader think Russo has tied this all up satisfactorily? I am wondering what the climax was?

Is Russo's book "plumb," "plumb some" or not at all?

I personally, did not like the way it all came together in just one chapter in the hospital room. I felt a bit cheated, although Russo was setting us up for a renunion, a revelation and a resting place, the night Joy and Jack slept together after Kelsey's wedding, and Joy revealed her feelings for Tommy. That for me was the climax. OOOps..... did I really just say that. :-[

I think Russo's book was "plumb some."

I, like Sally, am ready for a nice fun book. I think I'm going to choose a Mary Higgins Clark, Christmas story. I have my Feb. discussion book all set and ready to go after the holidays, and I am going to read Sarah Palin's, "Going Rouge." I must see what all the fuss is about. I've given the media their opportunity, so now I want to hear her side. After Russo, I am open to just about anything. ::)

This is a great quote..."The ending of a book should be worth the journey it took to get there! Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 29, 2009, 08:03:30 PM

I'm one of those who enjoyed the book; even though I didn't really like any of the characters, I could get into their minds to varying degrees, and care what happened to them. I DID like the humor. It's pretty devastating at times.

If we hadn't had this discussion, I would probably either not have read the book, or read it straight through and missed a lot. It was sure fun picking it apart so completely, and getting every last drop out of it.

I'll try to feed in final thoughts a little later.

Traude, You did a terrific job of keeping us on target and filling in gaps. I'm grateful.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on November 29, 2009, 08:05:29 PM

Sally, I hope you'll join us again for future discussions. Sometimes we like the book and still have a good discussion.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on November 30, 2009, 08:23:14 AM

Let me know what you think of Palin's book, BELLA. I admit that my take on Palin so far disinclines me to listen/read anything from that source. The thought that at one time she could potentially have become our President makes me shudder.

PatH:

Quote

Sometimes we like the book and still have a good discussion

. ;D

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: ALF43 on November 30, 2009, 10:41:37 AM

I just finished reading this brilliantly written book, The Book Thief, and must say that it is one of the best stories I have ever read about the atrocities of the Holocaust. It is not just a story for young adults, although I will buy it for my 13 yr. old granddaughter for Christmas. It's a totally different spin on this horrible time in history.

What a likeable, compassionate narrator we have to tell his haunted story. DEATH!
He (death, our narrator) is as weary as many Germans became during Hitler's insane rule, as he moves on collecting all of the souls. Our grim reaper is believable and has a heart of gold.

Each and every page of this story is filled with images and provocative prose as HIS path crosses with that of our young heroine many times during those terrifying years.

This is the first book that I have read in a very long time that I will give a 10.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: salan on November 30, 2009, 11:41:52 AM

Amen Alf! The Book Thief was excellent. I would like to see us select it for one of our reading sessions. The only problem with reading a really good book is that it spoils other books that come after (and that's a problem that I wish I encountered more frequently)!
Sally

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: jane on November 30, 2009, 12:13:50 PM

This has been a most enjoyable discussion. I liked the book and I liked the characters.

Thank you, Traude, and fellow "discussers."

jane

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: bellamarie on November 30, 2009, 12:49:07 PM

Babi...

Quote

Let me know what you think of Palin's book, BELLA. I admit that my take on Palin so far disinclines me to listen/read anything from that source. The thought that at one time she could potentially have become our President makes me shudder.

I sure will let you know. Since I have NO political affliation to either party, I have the luxury of keeping an open mind to anything and everything! :o We could have a whole entire discussion on our differences of opinions on this matter altogether. BUT....wrong place, wrong time. ;D ;D Have a great day!

Until February...........All of you have a very MERRY CHRISTMAS! AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Regards, Marie

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 30, 2009, 05:54:22 PM

Here I am! This discussion is not yet over. :D. Surely you didn't think I would absent myself without concluding thoughts and a proper send-off Ha!

Thank you for your posts. I regret not having been able to reply sooner to those that require answering.

First my conclusions.

This was a difficult book to read. Its emphatic concentration on one narrator and - to a minor extent - on the characters in his life, seemed claustrophobic at times. The "format" is unusual - to say the least - and that may have ben a turn-off for some readers. Interestingly enough, at his reading in Sandwich, Mass., on August 15th, the author read long segments only from Part One (!) They did not provide a clear-cut picture of what the book is really about.
The discussion was lively and I have tremendously enjoyed it, the probing, and the feedback.

The book's publication caused a stir; after all, the author is a Pulitzer Prize winner (!). I read all the reviews I could put my hands on. Most had similar "takes"on the book; some surmised it might be autobiographical; all commented on the horrible parents; a few saw humor, even hilarity. All reviewers mentioned midlife crisis.

As I said allready, I saw no humor, no hilarity, only serio-comic aspects. The last chapter is a bit rushed IMHO and not quite in "sync" with the rest of the book. I also was not thrilled with the language, especially the (professional ???) "lingo", and grammatical inconsistencies (which an editor should have caught). The pooping seagull makes too many comebacks, and the repeated reference to a personalized "Al Fresco" was tedious.
I believe The book is about family and marriage, the blush and eagerness of first love (Laura), and the (perhaps inevitable) lessening of desire as time goes by. A personal story painted on a small tableau, based on introspection, which not everybody likes. But we have certainly given this book our all.

Ginny, thank you for your post.
Yes, Griffin was plumb in the end, there was a re-connect, welcomed by both Joy and Griffin without hard feelings.

At the beginning of Chapter 11 Griffin has another dream: He is in his car with Harve in the back on the Sagamore Bridge. Harve is teaching him how to drive, despite Griffin's protestations that he already knows how. Then Harve has him execute a maneuver to test Griffin's reflexes. That causes an accident during which both urns spring open and the a shes commingle. Mercifully, Griffin wakes up.

We have been told that our dreams reflect things we wrestle with, fear, or are concerned about. That may well have been true for Griffin, who was preoccupied with scattering the ashes the next day. It is finally accomplished with Marguerite's help, after she questioned him extensively about his parents.
That's the ostensible reason for introducing yet another flashback = Griffin's tearful reminiscences about Christmases past and the search for he proper Christmas tree.

The decisive, crucial point of the story was in the tearful telling of the Christmases past and some kind of release with the realization that he did NOT have a "pathological hatred" for his parents but loved them. It is a true epiphany (and he tells that to Joy on the phone, and she says she knew it all along), ven though the "evolution" is not completely convincing for this reader.

Griffin did not call Joy deliberately after the accident. Both cars, Griffin's and the young man's, were damaged. Returning to his car, Griffin "saw that the holder for the cell phone was empty. He finally located the phone on the floor under the back seat, its screen black, and when he pressed the space bar it stayed black. He pressed several other keys and was about to give up when the screen suddenly leapt to life with a message, 'Calling Joy'"

About Marguerite - and Harold.
After the successful scattering and at at her request, she and Griffin had a celebratory dinner, coincidentally in the same B&B where he had been with Joy the year before). Marguerite got dressed up for the occasion. Midway in conversation, she said she would miss him. It mystified him because they were scheduled to fly back to L.A. in the morning.
Marguerite had intuited what Griffin had not, that their time together was over. He simply could not bring himself to tell her "I love you" because he was still in love with Joy. She even had a wager with Tommy (!!!) that Griffin would ask her to fly off to Vegas and marry her (pg. 254).

She also got in touch with Harold. And he was there the next morning. Griffin and Marg. parted, not unhappily.

There are several discernible themes: most important, perhaps, the focus on bad parenting; the sometimes tenuous relations of family members; who takes the first step(s) after a separation; openness; reasonableness versus using fists first; the need for compromise and for saying "sorry".

I'll post a few more answers after supper.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 30, 2009, 06:47:11 PM

P.S.
The climax, the crucial point of the story, I believe, is Griffin's realization that he really loved his parents. He's going to be at rest with Joy.. And what we deduce from this (not fully explained) development is precisely what I had suggested before: that Joy was his anchor.

I'd say the book is sui generis = in a class/category of its own, and I'd rather not rate it.

The Italians have a wonderful saying which, I believe, is applicable here:

"Non mi fa nė freddo nė caldo" = it makes me feel neither hot nor cold. :D

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: straudetwo on November 30, 2009, 09:31:31 PM

Closing remarks.

It has been a good journey.
I'd like to thank Jane for # 229 and Babi for her # 230 (and many other posts from both).

Now a reply to
Sally. I concur. Yes, we can have a good discussion even if we have different opinions and/or do not really like a book, whatever its genre. Our month-long exchanges vividly prove the point. Liking helps, but it is not a prerequisite.

I too have come to believe that we read differently; we may have a different approach and a different reaction to a book and different expectations. And I believe that stems from our life experiences, tastes and temperaments. It is definitely true for our f2f book group, which I started with a mere handful of people many years ago after we moved from Virginia to New England. It is still going strong.
I second PatH's sentiments and hope you'll join us another time.

Ginny, thank you for your encouragement and help over the years. PatH and Alf, it was a pleasure. I ~~hope~~ know there will be other occasions.

It was clear to me early on that this book would not be of interest to everyone and I do not take it amiss. Life would be rather boring if we all had the same tastes. Humble thanks for your kind words.

With gratitude for your participation,

Traude

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: JoanK on November 30, 2009, 09:44:40 PM

(http://www.christmasgifts.com/clipart/christmasholly7.jpg)

We're looking forward to seeing you at the

Holiday Open House (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=76.0)

December 1 - 20

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: Babi on December 01, 2009, 08:38:47 AM

Quote

Non mi fa nė freddo nė caldo" = it makes me feel neither hot nor cold

TRAUDE
Or as we say here, "I can take it or leave it".

See you at the new Christmas reading site.

Title: Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
Post by: PatH on December 01, 2009, 09:23:00 PM

Traude, I want to say thanks again for leading a terrific discussion.

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