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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER BOOKCLUB ONLINE
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://store.mcsweeneys.net/images/product/_cache/a586347edcf76719e42c7c4f6fdd2def.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
Will you be joining us in September?
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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Re: ZEITOUN by Dave Eggers - Proposed for September
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2010, 06:21:52 AM » Quote Modify
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We all watched this disaster on TV for days and in this book Dave Eggers has written about one family that endured and suffered, a family with the name of Zeitoun.
Eggers is a journalist, taught journalism at the University of California-Berkeley Graduate School, has written several books and is a catalyst for many charitable foundations; the book is so well written that we know you will enjoy reading it.
JOIN US IN SEPTEMBER!
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Time to pull up our chairs and talk about another fascinating book. So grab some cold lemonade, and let's go.
We met Dave Eggers a few years ago as a teenager, struggling to raise his brother after their parents died when we discussed "A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius". Now that he's grown u,p he's still writing about families in crisis, but not his own. Meet Zeitoun and his family, ordinary people caught in extraordinary events, when hurricane Katrina destroys their world around them.
I couldn't put this book down: I'm sure you'll feel the same way. The promise we saw in the teenager is still there, but with a new mature voice, a perfect voice for telling this story. Lets share this together.
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Count me in - Peak hurricane season begins in September, doesn't it?
Here's the book description that grabbed my attention -
"An American epic. Fifty years from now, when people want to know what happened to the once great city of New Orleans during a shameful episode of our history, they will still be talking about a family named Zeitoun." I don't remembering connecting the word "shameful" to the unfortunate results of the hurricane and its aftermath... This should be interesting.
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Oh, good, JOANP! We are happy to welcome our first participant!
New Orleans was hit again with a disaster, man made this time, with the oil spill. How much can one city take in a period of five years!
JOANK (remember we have two Joans here) said, this is a real page-turner of a book, but I haven't read his memoir, THE HEARTBREAK book, so I shall look forward to reading that!
But I guarantee you will love this book!
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OK, count me in!
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You are in, KIDSAL. Delighted to welcome you.
This book is still #7 or 8 on the NYT's bestseller paperback list and the fact that it is in paperback makes the price, for those who are buying, very gratifying.
But for others, as the book has been out for awhile, you should have no trouble finding it at your local library.
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A BIT ABOUT THE AUTHOR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers
Just 40 years old, so handsome, and so literary! His book WHAT IS THE WHAT was a finalist for the National Book Critics Circele Award; I have an idea that his next book will win it.
He's a winner! A fellow who seems to have it all!
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And while I have time this morning, I will put place a couple of other sites of interest in our story. We can put these in the heading later.
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/lgcolor/sycolor.htm - Map of Syria where Zeitoun was born and raised.
http://www.cafe-syria.com/History.htm - History of Syria
This site mentions an exhibition of Syrian antiquities that will be traveling:
"The exhibition will open in Basel, Switzerland, and then move to Quebec from May 30, 2000, to Jan. 7, 2001. It then moves to Edmonton and on to the United States in June 2001: San Jose until September, New York’s American Museum of Natural History from October to January and Denver until May 5, 2002"
Anybody heard anything about this?
And one more site of a place which is often in Zeitoun's dreams The island where his grandparents lived and he played with his older brother:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad
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Well, I hope I can join you. I suggested it to my library, but don't know whether they'll get it or not. Then I ordered one of those new Kindles, to be shipped (2-day) Aug. 27, thinking that Zeitoun would be my first book to put on it, and I would have it for our NY trip. Now my Amazon order shows shipping about Sept. 29, so we shall see. I simply cannot buy a hard copy of it.
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Hi PEDLIN, it would be nice to see you here! My library has 43 copies of it, so I just assumed most libraries would also have bought a number of the books; Eggers being a well-known author.
You can buy the paperback from our Amazon ad above for $8.95 or $9.95. I know you are going to NY with several other members of our site for 4-5 days. Maybe you can get it for your Kindle, my daughter had it on her Kindle when she went on vacation this summer.
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JABLEH, SYRIA, the city of Zeitoun's birth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jableh
The house on the left is the Zeitoun family home, I believe. The picture is identical to the one on the book.
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There's just no end to it: Below are just a few of the hundreds of photos of HURRICANE KATRINA:
http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/
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Hi, JoanP, Kidsal, Pedlin. WELCOME, WELCOME!
My library has an estimated waiting list of 43 days, so if you're planning on a library book, maybe you'd better check.
And I see I was wrong: I said Eggers was 16 when he wrote "Heartbreaking work---", but the review says 21. Pactically an old man. Were any of you in that discussin?
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Good morning, all!
This looks like an excellent choice, and I'll try to join in. Sep is looking like a very busy month, with several days out for travel and, more importantly, the re-start of Latin
class Sep 15th. But being busy is good, so I'll try.
This is the first time I'll try a book discussion using my Kindle. By the way, it was a
gift in June and I do love the instant delivery feature. For this, I'm going to try the annotation feature ... or whatever its called ... but good old place marks or sticky notes will be missed. Technology marches on!
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Yes, MIPPY, and technology is marching faster, it seems to me. One new gadget follows another within a month or two. Good for a capitalist society I suppose. I haven't tried a Kindle yet, may someday but I don't travel much anymore, so I'm not sure of the need.
I do hope you can join in what is going to be a fascinating story and discussion! Being busy is good, do we all agree? But time out for books indeed!
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Hey, Mippy -- great to see you! I'm getting more and more tempted to buy a kindle -- the new multi-task thingies have driven the price down, and it's harder to get to the library in my new condo. Let us know how well it works.
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Mark
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I've ordered it from my local library. I'm going to try to read it along with the group.
Nancy
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HI. ABERLAINE. Glad to see you. Pull up a chair!
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WELCOME MIPPY, NANCY AND JACKIE! I hope you will join us September lst!
What do you remember about Hurricane Katrina? The Levee failures, FEMA, the lack of control, the Superdome, the tragic pictures. Has the city been healed yet? People back in homes?
On BookTV Sunday there was an author talking about how history should be written and he believed it should be written as a story told through the eyes of one family or one character to make it come allive to the reader.
This book is good history!
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Tavis Smiley ran programs about New Orleans on Public Television. Did anyone see them? I just saw a bit of one.
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Here is incredible youtube footage of the storm:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76Qn7bpCsQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76Qn7bpCsQ&feature=related)
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OH! That was such a frightening video, JOANK! I couldn't watch too long, it looked like that boat went under....
And Zeitoun (our husband and father in the book) was in a canoe! But that was after the brunt of the storm, don't you think?
So much to discuss here.
One paragraph that caught my eye this morning:
"Downtown, hundreds of people were walking to the Superdome carrying coolers, blanket, suitcases. Zeitoun was surprised. Previous experiments using the stadium as shelter had failed."
The people of New Orleans knew that? That it had failed as a shelter before? But those who were going there were the vulnerable, the poor, those had no other option. Those were the people of New Orleans that were affected so much by this hurricane.
Do you think all the people are out of the trailers that FEMA provided?
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If this were just a book about the hurricane, it would not have been a bestseller.
So what is it? The excellent writing? The characters? The fact that this is a story about a Muslim family?
To quote Vanity Fair"s James Wolcott: "It's unmistakably a narrative feat, slowly pulling the reader into the oncoming vortex without literary trickery or theatrical devices, reminiscent of Mailer's Exectioners's Song, but less craftily self-conscious in the exercise of its restraint. Humanistic, that is, in the highest, best, least boring sense of the word."
High praise!
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I just downloaded our book to my Kindle. So, count me in, too. ELLA, I love my Kindle. I am house bound, due to my health. One of the features I enjoy the most, is how light weight it is. Doesn't bother my arthritic hands. This is my second Kindle. When I gave the first one to my dil, Amazon put all of the books in the first Kindle, and transferred each of them to the second Kiindle. Most of the books are $9,95. It only takes about one minute, between ordering a new book, for it to download to my Kindle.
Sheila
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WELCOME SHEILA!
The Kindle - I must get one someday soon. How easy it makes it to get a book and read it. I have arthritic hands, knees, back, neck, don't you think I need one? My daughter read this book on her Kindle while on her vacation and she loved the book.
I'm so happy you will be joining us!
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My library called yesterday. The book is in and waiting for me to pick it up.
During the days before and following Hurricane Katrina, I watched the news non-stop. I felt so helpless watching people deal with that disaster. I also watched Spike Lee's documentary, When The Levees Broke. That, and the anniversary of 9/11 caused me to go into a deep depression. I finally got over it with the help of several great doctors. I sure hope this book has a happy ending or I might have to stop reading it.
Nancy
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Should I tell you?
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Nancy, you go get it, but don't read it until Sept. lst and we will all read it together. We'll be posting a schedule in the heading later.........
It would be difficult to put this book into any category at all, except to say that it is a true story, well-written and is very thought-provoking. As all good books should be.
Has any one read the book HELP by Kathryn Stockett? I've been carrying it around with me and people see it and tell me how wonderful it is; it has some similarity to ZEITOUN. But I don't want to discuss this ahead of our schedule.
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I recommended the book to a friend whose husband comes from Syria. I hope she will join us.
Meanwhile, we usually try to think of some appropriate virtual drinks and snacks to bring to our virtual meetings. If any of you have been to New Orleans, what would be appropriate there?
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First thing in the morning, I'll be here with the beignets and a big jug of chicory coffee - for dunking, New Orleans style of course! You'd better get here early though, they'll be gone long before noon!
(http://www.stilettosetsports.com/wp-content/uploads/new-orleans-beignets-cafe-au-lait.jpg)
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Wow! What is a beignet? they look yummy.
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FEMA apparently has improved. They just delivered drinking water to my hometown - Ames, Iowa. They lost all of their drinking water to flooding and breakage of water mains. They managed to get the lines fixed today.
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That's good to know, KIDSAL! It took a disaster, though, and the public to make it happen!
JOANP, I want to know what a "beignet is also! Is that cocoanut on top of a doughnut? Whatever, I agree, JOANK!
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Oh, JOANP, clever! Have you been to New Orleans or just read about these delicious pastries?
"Unique specialties include beignets (locally pronounced like "ben-yays"), square-shaped fried pastries that could be called "French doughnuts" (served with café au lait made with a blend of coffee and chicory rather than only coffee); Po' boy and Italian Muffuletta sandwiches; Gulf oysters on the half-shell, fried oysters, boiled crawfish, and other seafood; étouffée, jambalaya, gumbo, and other Creole dishes; and the Monday favorite of red beans and rice. (Louis Armstrong often signed his letters, "Red beans and ricely yours".) Another New Orleans specialty is the Praline (locally /ˈprɑːliːn/), a candy made with brown sugar, granulated sugar, cream, butter, and pecans." - Wikipedia
There is a beautiful picture on that web site of the skyline of New Orleans, a bridge and the Mississippi River. So peaceful looking, so calm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans
As we read the chapters in this book we'll try to study the various sections of New Orleans; those most susceptible to flooding and what has been done, what could be done.
And the history of the city.
Who has been there?
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No, not coconut, Ella - you couldn't dunk the beignet if it was covered in coconut. :D That's confectioner's sugar you see - it dissolves in the chicory coffee when you dunk it! The beignet is a square piece of dough, fried and covered with powdered sugar - they're served warm. Heavenly! Real diet breakers - you can't just have one! Maybe a cyber beignet has fewer calories, BUT I'm not even sure of that! t
They're served warm. Heavenly! JoanK, you'll have to set your alarm in CA if you want to get in on these.
We went down to New Orleans two years after Katrina, stayed in Old Town right across the street from where Frances Parkinson Keyes lived and wrote her "Dinner at Antoine's" My father gave me that book many many years before and I've kept it. Of course we had dinner at the famous Antoine's - it had recently reopened, but not as many hours as before. Had a long talk with the waiter who told of moving his mother and family to Texas after the flood so he could work to support everyone. He had just returned the week before we arrived.
Frances P. Keyes home was open as a museum - this was a treasured memory - The caretaker lived in the museum - had known the author and continued to keep up her home after she left it.
Slowly things were coming back - in Old Town.
The fine homes on higher dry land all looked great - but oh, the abandonned houses es in the devastated areas needed so much work. So many of them! To me, they looked as if they ought to be razed, but the owners' whereabouts were unknown. There were markings on the homes where bodies had been found.
What gave hope was the number of volunteer crews working on the houses. So many young people... Jimmy Carter was there when we went through.
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I'm not surprised Jimmy Carter was there. His work on housing is outstanding!
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I have my book and am eagerly awaiting the reading schedule. In the meantime, I'll listen to the books I've downloaded to my mp3 player.
Oh, another thing. When I went to the library to pick up the book, the librarian asked where I had found out about it. She had never heard of it before. So I gave her our website address. She was eager to look us up. I think we might be getting a new member soon.
Nancy
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JoanK's enthusiastic review convinced me. The book is on the way from Amazon.com.
I don't have to go far to get Beignets; there's a modest Louisiana restaurant less than 2 miles from my house, and if I have room after eating a catfish or soft shell crab po'boy, I can get them for dessert. The dough isn't quite like a cakey doughnut, but close. Really good.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/zeitoun/zeitouncvr.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 Pages 1-81
Sept. 9 - 16 Pages 85 - 170
Sept. 17- 23 Pages173 - 224
Sept. 24 - 30 Pages 225-325
Related links::
Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak (http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/);
About David Eggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers); the town of Arwad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad);
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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I have a neighbor who spent 6 weeks with a group from her church in New Orleans after the flood. Many churches sent folks to help. She has read the book but doesn't have a computer; however she has many stories to tell of the devastation, the poor people whose homes were gone and had no place to go.
I would love to have a beignut with my breakfast; toast will have to do!
I took a bus tour through New Orleans about one year after the flood. We had a group leader on board who had lived through the flood. I remember her telling of the many people, those who had the means to do so, leaving the city and getting jobs elsewhere; she said they will never come back. - Ella
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WELCOME PATH!
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Funny how when you're interested in a subject, you see it everywhere. There is a PBS series called "Great Museums". Yesterday, they did a program on "New Orleans, a living Museum of Music". I hadn't known it was on, so saw only the last bit: the idea being that music and the history of music, is so intertwined with NO life, that the city is like a museum of music.
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Yesterday, in honor of my birthday, two of my buddies took me out to dinner at the local Louisiana restaurant. I'm sorry I forgot my camera, or I could have posted another picture of beignets. They were great, freshly fried, still hot, puffy and light. A wonderful cuisine, but a disaster in terms of heart health, calorie counting, or stomachs sensitive to hot spices.
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If you are reading this, you need to know that PATH and JOANK are twins and they celebrated their birthday yesterday! Happy Birthday to the two of you!
My Mother-in-law, years ago, when my husband and I were dating, used to fry doughnuts - doughnuts that she had made from scratch - in a big pot of boiling oil and their family loved them. I never did, and I can'at remember why, but I don't like dough and I think they were very doughy and greasy. Wonder what she did with all that leftover grease?
Louisiana Restaurants! I don't think we have any such in the midwest. Aren't their foods spicy? And fishy! I had crab cakes once and didn't like them! What else was on the menu, PAT?
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Happy, Happy Birthday to PatH and JoanK !!! Hope you both enjoyed the day !!!
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Ella, when I was growing up my mother always referred to the "solid" donuts. with or without powdered sugar, as "fried cakes. Only the puffier donuts were called donuts. I loved the fried cakes, but maybe now have about one per year.
I've only been to New Orleans once, in 2003, before Katrina. Loved it.
Did anyone see Spike Lee on CNN this morning? He has a post-Katrina documentary called "If God is Willing and the Creek Don't Rise." What was surprising is that he said the ending was to be with the Saints winning the SuperBowl, on a positive note, etc. And then came April 20? and he has added an hour to this documentary all dealing with the BP oil disaster.
Mippy, I've got one of the new Kindles (wi-fi only) on order, supposed to be 2-day shipped on 8/27. If it can get here before New York, fine. Otherwise I may cancel. I'm also No. 1 in line for the book from my library -- when they get it.
You folks who have Kindles -- do you need a cover for it, or a skin -- whatever that it -- or a screen protector? I'm hoping to be able to always carry it in my purse.
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Thank you it was a great bithday. The beignets sound similar to the "flannel cakes" that are sold here as a Mexican treat. But flannel cakes are bigger.
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Fried cakes, flannel cakes! How interesting. Flannel - to keep one warm on a cold day? I think I've heard of "funnel" cakes also.
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http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,funnel_cake,FF.html
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THE BIG UNEASY - a documentary on Hurricane Katrina, in nationwide theatres August 30th. One day only!
http://www.thebiguneasy.com/
Right on time for our discussion! Check your local listings!
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My book came today, in good time for getting going.
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I stand corrected. They are funnel cakes.
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Oh, darn, Joan. I liked the idea of "flannel" cakes.
Last night on CNN (8 pm EST) a documentary was shown and it will be shown tonight I believe, about Hurricane Katrina; actually not so much about the storm as about the redevelopment of a section of New Orleans that was completely devastated by the storm. The city was going to demolish all the homes but one person, an actor who had been brought up in the area, came from California to try to save it. Lake Ponchatrain.
Tears came rolling down my face as I listened and I am not an emotional person.
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The Lake:
Lake Pontchartrain is a brackish estuary located in southeastern Louisiana. It is the second-largest saltwater lake in the United States, after the Great Salt Lake in Utah, and the largest lake in Louisiana. It covers an area of 630 square miles (1630 square km) with an average depth of 12 to 14 feet (about 4 meters).
During hurricanes, a storm surge can build up in Lake Pontchartrain. Wind pushes water into the lake from the Gulf of Mexico as a hurricane approaches from the south, and from there it can spill into New Orleans.
A hurricane in September, 1947 flooded much of Metairie, Louisiana, much of which is slightly below sea level due to land subsidence after marshland was drained. After the storm, hurricane-protection levees were built along Lake Pontchartrain's south shore to protect New Orleans and nearby communities. A storm surge of 10 feet (3 m) from Hurricane Betsy overwhelmed some levees in Eastern New Orleans in 1965 (while storm surge funneled in by the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet Canal and a levee failure flooded most of the Lower 9th Ward). After this the levees encircling the city and outlying parishes were raised to heights of 14 to 23 feet (4–7 m). Due to cost concerns, the levees were built to protect against only a Category 3 hurricane; however, some of the levees initially withstood the Category 5 storm surge of Hurricane Katrina (August 2005), which only slowed to Category 3 winds within hours of landfall (due to a last-minute eyewall replacement cycle).
Experts using computer modeling at Louisiana State University subsequent to Hurricane Katrina have concluded that the levees were never topped but rather faulty design, inadequate construction, or some combination of the two were responsible for the flooding of most of New Orleans: some canal walls leaked underneath because the wall foundations were not deep enough in peat-subsoil to withstand the pressure of higher water.[5] - Wikipedia
http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/08/19/pontchartrain.park.new.orleans/index.html
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The Spike Lee documentary, God Willin' and Da Creek Don't Rise is on HBO tonight and tomorrow night == in 2 parts. There was a full-page ad in today's USA Today. USA Today gave it a lousy review. Apparently his first one about Katrina -- When the Levees Broke -- is much better.
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Over the weekend I watched an interview with Spike Lee, about that documentary. Part one is tonight on HBO. It is about the flooding in New Orleans when it happened. Tomorrow night's showing is the second part, about what is the situation there, five years after the event.
Sheila
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Unfortunately, I don't get HBO. If any of you do, and watch the show, please let us know what you learn.
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I don't get HBO either, JOANK, so we must depend on others to tell us about it. I was in tears when I watched the CNN documentary; particularly an elderly black couple who had lived in their home for 50 years and lost everything.
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Well, I watched Spike Lee's first installment. One of the scenes that got to me, the most, was a woman between 30 & 40 years old. She is African/American. She evacuated to a small town in Utah. There was not another black person in that little town. She was terrified. It raised up memories of stories she had heard all of her life, about lynching. She finally returned to New Orleans. She reconnected with her culture, and familiar places.
I found interviews with Michael Brown, very interesting. He really holds George W. Bush, responsible for the tragedies. Louiseanna had 75 % of the flood damage. Mississippi, suffered 25% of flood damage. Yet, Louiseanna received $25% of federal funds, and Mississippi received 75% of the federal funding. The governor of Louiseanna was a Democrat, while Mississipi was a Republican. HHHHHHHHmmmmmmmmmmm
Sheila
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That's appalling!
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Just received notice that my book is on its way. Looking forward to our discussion.
Sally
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SALLY: HOORAH!
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I'm first on the list, but my library hasn't received the book yet. My Kindle is on its way, but now, according to today's Wall St. Jrnl, Amazon is embroiled with some publisher contract that affects writers like Dave Eggers. So what to do -- wait on the lib or get the Kindle version, if possible, as soon as it gets here.
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PEDLIN, can't believe it! I have an idea that all library copies are out; my library has 0 copies on shelves and many requests. Perhaps this is due to the many programs on Hurricane Katrina??? They go and on, specials, documentaries with accusations against police, all officials, the National Guard, etc.
At the same time that we are discussing Zeitoun, a local bookclub, the Upper Arlington book club, is discussing it thereby limiting our copies.
Fortunately I bought one and it is sitting on my desk.
SHEILA, I haven't heard those facts about the federal funds! Yes, JoanR, said it best. Appalling! Many of the refugees are returning home, I've heard; there's no place like home regardless of the bad memories.
SALLY, glad your book is coming. It's going to a good discussion. Good discussion; good people; good book!
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Do you get the Parade Magazine with your Sunday paper? There's a piece called "What Should College Freshmen Be Reading?" - And then there are five nonfiction titles that are popular among colleges this fall. Did you see it? The five bookcovers are pictured - and one is Zeitoun. It jumped right off the page at me. Aren't we topical?
I'm #2 on the library wait list - the system owns 11 copies, so I'm looking good, don't you think?
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JoanP, looks like your timing will be good. One renewal (if they let you when there is a waiting list) will more than do it.
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ATTN: tomorrow, Friday, Tavis Smiley will feature an interview with the Zeitouns: husband and wife.
If you're not familiar with Tavis Smiley, it's a PBS interview show. On my PBS station (KCET -- Tavis' home station) it airs at 7 and 11 pm every day. Usually 15 minutes of interview with a politician or newsmaker followed by 15 minutes of a Hollywood personality. I hope the Zeitoun's get all 30 minutes, but I couldn't tell.
Check it out. I'm anxious to see how they are doing after their ordeal.
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Notice that the reading schedule is now in the heading:
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 Pages 1-81
Sept. 9 - 16 Pages 85 - 170
Sept. 17- 23 Pages173 - 224
Sept. 24 - 30 Pages 225-325
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ELLA and JOANK, I have our book on my Kindle. Could you list the reading schedule, also, by chapter, rather than pages? The Kindle doesn't tell pages. We are able to change the size of the print we choose, and that affects how much fits each page. If you aren't able to also list the reading schedule by chapters, I will just do the best I can.
Sheila
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Sheila ~ I appreciate your post, as I've also started the book on my Kindle.
If some of us read ahead, it's not a huge problem, IMHO.
The percentage read (which the Kindle notes) is some help, as the number of pages can be used to approximate that figure, which looks like about 25% of the book each week. Does that help a bit? My problem is reading too fast and not taking notes.
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My Kindle is supposed to arrive today!! :D
But my library just got the book, so I think I'll read that one and save my Kindle dollars for books that they library doesn't have. Am picking the book up this week.
We've had the "different edition" problem before. An easy solution is for someone who has the book to just type in the last sentence of the section.
Mippy and Sheila, will you be making annotations on the Kindle? I'd like to know how to do that.
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Yeah! Just got the three books for our Sept, Oct, Nov selections. So, now I am ready to begin Zeitoun.
Sally
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KINDLE READERS! Our first section ends with PART I. The last sentence is - "The dissonance woke him."
Do remind me to tell you the next section, will you please? I might forget that? Or I can do that now??????
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In other words, it end with the end of Part I.
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Did any of you see the interview yesterday? It was nice to "meet" our protagonists in person.
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Joan, I watched the interview. It was interesting, but not as informative as I had hoped. I was puzzled as to why his Louisiana born wife (who had converted to Islam) was dressed in native "garb", while Zeitoun who was born in Syria and born into the Muslim faith, was dressed in American "garb". I have started the book and if it remains as interesting as it is starting out, then it will be hard for me not to read too far ahead. Should we be through reading thru the first part on the 1st?
Sally
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Pedlin, I haven't learned how to make notes on my Kindle. So, I can't help you. I do not think it is necessary to have a coverfor your Kindle. My first Kindle came with one. That is no longer the case. I just ordered a new Kindle, with some features that interest me. My daughter will get my Kindle 2.
This weekend I need to get caught up with my reading. Thanks Ella and JoanK, for the info about how far to read this week.
Sheila
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SALAN: yes, please read through Part I by the first.
I agree with you about the interview. That show is like that: the interviews are often not very informative. But we can now put a face to the Zeitound.
The book discusses how Cathy feels about wearing traditional garb.
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I was sorry to have missed the interview...I agree, it helps to put a face on the people of the book - when they are actual people.
I found this photo of the Zeitoun family (http://blog.nola.com/books_impact/2009/07/large_Zeitounfamily.JPG) for those of you who missed the interview...http://blog.nola.com/books_impact/2009/07/large_Zeitounfamily.JPG
I went to the front of the line and picked up my library copy of the book - am on my way up to bed to get started on it. Wonder how many pages I'll get read before I fall asleep...
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/zeitoun/zeitouncvr.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 Pages 1-81
Sept. 9 - 16 Pages 85 - 170
Sept. 17- 23 Pages173 - 224
Sept. 24 - 30 Pages 225-325
Related links::
Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak (http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/);
About David Eggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers); the town of Arwad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad);
FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION
1. In this first week, we go from August 26, 2005 to August 30th. Four days. What did you learn about Kathy and Zeitoun, their family values, their marriage in these first chapter?
2. What did the community think of Zeitoun’s family? His business; his practice of hiring men from everywhere? What is Zeitoun attempting to do by hiring immigrants?
3. What do we learn about Zeitoun before he came to America?
4. What is your reaction to the following statements:
a.“Americans fall short of their best selves.” pp. 36-7
b.In America “there is a sense that everything could be replaced and on a whim.” (pg. 48)
c.“The doubt sewn into the faith (Islam) gave her (Kathy) room to think, to question.” (p 67)
d.“Previous experiments using the stadium had failed” (P. 55)
5.What would you have done if you lived in New Orleans and heard the reports of the hurricane coming?
6. What do you remember most about the hurricane?
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Well, darn, I missed the interview also. There are pictures of Zeitoun in my paperback book in various parts of the world taken in his "roaming years" and some others
We start the book Wednesday; what fun. We'll put a few questions for your consideration - something to get our discussion going - tomorrow.
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Zeitoun's English is not too good -- he was struggling to explain how he had rescued people. So Tavis Smiley concentrated on Cathy, explaining how she felt, and what she did. It was a little frustrating.
I can't wait for Wednesday!
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I just picked up my book from the library today. It's skinny enough and lightweight enough, I'll keep it and not get a Kindle copy.
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Great!
I'm thinking of getting a kindle. They seem to have two: one wi-fi only, the other I guess independent. How do I know which one I need?
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Me too, Joan K. Will someone please explain the difference to me. What is WiFi (I know I just showed my ignorance). I am trying to become a little more technology informed.
Sally
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All of the Kindles up to know have worked with cell phone towers. So you could "buy" a book anytime you were in an area the had cell phone connections. (YOU did not have to use a cell phone) The Kindle did it all. The technology is called G-something.
With the new Kindle -- the Kindle3, or Latest Generation, you can have G-Something plus WiFi, or for a slightly lesser price, you can get one that uses on WiFi. The only time you need to use either of these technologies is when you download reading material. You can turn it off for just reading.
WiFi -- Wireless FI? -- it's what in place whenever you see a coffeeshop or someplace that says "free internet." Most libraries now have WiFi, hospitals, schools,homes. My kids have Wifi, I have wifi -- which means I can use my laptop in any room of the house without being plugged in anywhere.
I don't know enough about Kindles to know the advantages of the two different technologies. If you spent your life on the beach on climbing mountains you'd probably want the G-something variety.
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IT'S SEPTEMBER 1ST AND TIME TO START OUR BOOK DISCUSSION!
IT'S ALSO A HOLIDAY WEEKEND SO PERHAPS SOME OF YOU HAVE BIG PLANS?
If you are home, do gather around the computer and let's talk a bit. We have put a few questions in the heading for you to think about as you read the book.
What did you think about the organization, by dates, of the book? And the way that Dave Eggers skipped around in these chapters?
Have you read any of Eggers' books? His WHAT IS WHAT book was a finalist for the 2006 National Book Critics Circle Award and is about a survivor of a civil war.
This is Eggers type of story and I think he does it well, do you?
Let's hear your thoughts today!
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Oh boy, Ella, I'm not that far into the first section to comment on the arrangement. But I'm thoroughly enjoying these first pages, meeting the Zeitoun family and learning a little bit of their background. This is my first Eggers book. I love the beginning pages -- so real, so typical of an average American family -- Mom hoping for just a bit more sleep and the kids reliving their DVD. (That reminded me of riding with a friend whose 3-yr-old granddaughter was babbling in the back seat about Mr. Darcy and that silly mother. She and her mama had been watching P &P too.) The juggling that continually has to be done in any family.
In just a few pages we've learned that Kathy and Zeitoun, after a rocky start, are well-thought of in their community. They've worked hard and it's paid off.
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Hi, PEDLIN! Perhaps my mind is not as well organized as it should be. I found this first part confusing, I was forever looking at those dates, going back to each chapter heading, to see how/when the flood occurred. We all know that there was just flooding at first, and then the levees broke and it was hellish. I'm not even sure, without leafing through the book, what day the levees broke.
This was my first Eggers book also and I thought it was well written, although poorly organized. The first two pages describe Zeitoun's youth in Syria, which sounds carefree and wonderful; however this sentence tells the real story behind his youth I believe:
"Their father had passed away the year before and their mother was of fragile health and mind, so all funds they earned fishing went toward the welfare of the house they shared with ten siblings."
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I always get confused when a story jumps back and forth in time, but I'm managing to hold onto the story line this time because it's so well written. I finished Part 1 last week and am rereading it now.
I'm proud of Zeitoun hiring men from other countries. It gave them a chance to get settled in the community. It's too bad that the community didn't regard this as positive. Especially the woman who objected to "swarthy" men working on her home. I guess we're all taught to distrust anyone who doesn't look like us. So very sad.
Nancy
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Good morning!
I finished Part One and am loving the book. Isn't it eerie that we are reading the book at the same time the storm is approaching New Orleans? I think Eggers captures the unfolding drama just right. And have you noticed Hurricane Earl bearing down on the East Coast right now?
I feel I understand Zeitoun - are we ever going to spell his first name right? Abdulrahman...is that right? Let's refer to him as Zeitoun, as Eggers does. He's a hard worker and a fair employer, which is why the business prospers.
I'm still not understanding Kathy and her motivation for converting to Islam and her insistence on wearing the hijab...especially when there were incidents when she wore it in public. I DO understand her wanting to heed the hurricane warnings and get out of New Orleans though.
They do make a good team though - most of her work for the business seems to be talking to customers on the phone in her Southern drawl. I was really surprised to see so many immigrant workers in New Orleans before the flood, Nancy. Bruce pointed out that as a port town, this is always the case. It will be interesting to learn whether they still come into New Orleans to work today. Also, if Zeitoun is back reconstructing the damaged homes...
This is fascinating - and those are great questions you've put before us!
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JoanP "I think Eggers captures the unfolding drama just right". I agree! I think he just captures the uncertainty that NOers must have felt in those days: running their regular lives, then thinking "What should we do?" "I'm scared!" "No, I'm being silly" etc. I found myself yelling "Run, run for your lives".
Of course if they had, we wouldn't be reading about them.
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Ok, time to sit down and discuss, eating our snacks. JoanK, please bring the coffee with chickory and beignets.
But at the start, we learn about Zeitoun's past in Syria. So I asked my friend, an American wonan married to a Syrian: "if we were in Syria, sitting around discussing this book, what would we be eating and drinking?"
She said chai and sweets, followed by fruit. The fruit follows the sweets because it satisfies the thirsty feeling that sweets leave.
The first sweet she mentioned was baklava. I thought baklava was Greek, but it seems there is a special kind, made in Syria, called Aleppo Baklave, made from a kind of pistachios grown in the Syrian town of Aleppo.
I brought plenty:
http://snapshots.travelvice.com/view/syria/aleppo/DSCN5311.JPG.html (http://snapshots.travelvice.com/view/syria/aleppo/DSCN5311.JPG.html)
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I remember watching the disaster on tv. I felt so helpless and shocked that our government could not rescue these people sooner. It made me wonder what would happen to us in a country-wide catastrophy. I felt much less safe.
I remember being impatient with those who stayed to "weather" the storm, in spite of all warnings. Their actions caused others to be put in harm's way. Later on it was brought home to me that many of those that stayed had no way to leave and no money to go anywhere else. The accommodations at the superdome were horrendous. Yet, where else could the huge masses of people have gone??
We housed 5 evacuees (family members), so we stayed glued to the t.v. Their experiences on the road were something else.. It took them 3 times as long to get here and going to the bathroom along the way was a problem--bumper-to-bumper traffic, hours between places with bathrooms and 2 small children, etc.
Sally
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ME, TOO, NANCY! It seems it's the modern way to write a good story, jumping around in time! And I agree with you about Zeitoun hiring immigrants, but I'm somewhat surprised, however. Someone said that in the interview on TV he couldn't speak very well and I am sure the immigrants he hired couldn't speak English very well either. And, yet, he had a thriving business.
Port cities, JOANP, yes, Zeitoun might not have had full-time work so he could be assured of having workers when he needed them; one reason he hired immigrants. New Orleans has always been known (perhaps around the world?) as being a multi-cultural city and this might be the reason Zeitoun entered the country here. One wonders how that works? Where does he get a visa? Become a citizen? Anyone know?
JOANK, the baklava! Yes, I would have thought they were Greek also and they are so good, warm, yes! You have a friend married to a Syrian? He speaks Arabic right? Such ancient lands, such troubled lands. Here is the Wikipedia site for Syria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria
There is also a site in the heading of Arwad, Zeitoun's beloved island off the coast of Syria. Beautiful place!
SALLY, you live where? You housed evacuees! Tell us the story! Yes, the poor people, those who had no means to leave the city, those that we saw huddled in the Superdome were pitiful!
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I was really surprised to see so many immigrant workers in New Orleans before the flood, Nancy. Bruce pointed out that as a port town, this is always the case.
Even back in the 1800's, JoanP, immigrants came through New Orleans and up the Mississippi to settle in places like Wisconsin and Missouri. That really surprised me when I heard it.
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Question 4b. Everything can be replaced? Many things are now designed to be replaced rather than repaired. Remember when I could change the tubes in my TV! Now I don't know where/how I would get it repaired -- just buy a new one.
4a: I don't believe some people realize they do discrimate. Have a friend (85 years old) who told me she hired a black man to take care of her lawn. She exclaimed that he "was clean." Also tried to tell me that if you were only 1% black you were black (old southern law for marriage rights?) Then she told me she was not a raciest. I now live in Wyoming -- where does this come from?
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"Why, sometimes, did Americans fall short of their best selves?"
This question tells us something about Zeitoun. He's a surprising person, and one thing about him--he looks for and sees the good in people. He doesn't just dismiss the bigots, instead he is disappointed in them for not living up to what he knows they could be.
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SO TRUE KIDSAL. If you were young in the 30's and 40's, as I was, you remember how everyone around you used up everything and saved everything. String, rubber bands, paper bags, and I don't remember garbage pickup. Did we have it or did we bury it? We had a garden out back so I imagine we buried the waste or put it on a compost heap. We (I) have lived to see America waste everything! Zeitoun says:
"there are times when waste got to him. The disposability of just about everything." pg.48
We often see TV pictures of third world countries where folks live in utter poverty with nothing. I am ashamed of our waste but don't know how it can stopped.
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Are the Muslims the new African-Americans? It seems so when you read this from Zeitoun:
"Since the attacks in New York...., every time a crime was committed by a Muslim, that person's faith was mentioned, regardless of its relevance.............When a crime is committed by a black man, it's mentioned in the first breath."
The new minority and the media is going to expound and expand it. There is an article just about every day in my paper about Muslims in America, the mosque near Ground Zero, for and against.
Let's discuss it a bit. Does it bother you to have mosques in America? One near Ground Zero?
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kidsal, I don't even know how to work my new TV :D - three different remote controls - over 1500 channels, so many of them pay to view...some channels hi-def....
I still save - my kids laugh at me. Every door knob has rubber bands. They tell me I can buy a whole bag of them for $1.00
The irony here is that Zeitoun believes in repairing, not replacing. How many of the homes in the 9th Ward could have been repaired? I haven't read any further than PART I - don't know what happened to Zeitoun - and his company after the storm. Construction became a big business - and with his character he would be great working with the thousands of volunteers who still come in today to help with the rebuilding.
There's an article in this morning's Washington Post on a recent report that shows the recession and tougher border enforcement have led to a sharp decline in the number of immigrants entering the US illegally in the past five years. This made me wonder about Zeitoun's practice of hiring immigrants. Perhaps he hired immigrants because they were willing to work. I don't think he was averse to hiring "natives" when they came to him looking for work - do you? As long as they showed up and worked hard, he gave them work. I'm wondering how many of the men who worked for him were legal...do we know that? I can see Zeitoun hiring people who were willing to work without checking their papers...
PatH, I think that that statement tells a lot about Zeitoun too - Already he is showing rare qualities - pure, selfless, non-judgmental qualities that heros are made of...
Ella, we were posting together - I'll have to think some more about your Muslim question. I'm confused about the building a mosque (is it a mosque?) near Ground Zero - it iseems grossly insensitive, it is asking for trouble and negative attention for as long as such a building would stand. Yet, this is America...
I wonder what Zeitoun's views are on this?
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JOANP, I don't think Zeitoun is a hero. He is an ordinary man doing ordinary things in extraordinary circumstances. I think most business men would think and do as he did, but because he was a Muslim and could not speak good English he was a marked man (more of this as we get into the book).
That article about immigrants was in my newspaper also, It's good in many ways (particularly AZ) but it would be bad for Zeitoun. Hiring immigrants might get him in trouble, I would think, with many government agencies, however. The IRS, Soc. Security, the state of Louisiana, workmen's compensation. How did he handle payroll with workers who:
"were transient, intending only to spend a few months in the country before returning to their families
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I'm still here, JOANP. From what I read in this book, Zeitoun would say that Muslims have a right to build their mosque there. I'm undecided as are most Americans and as long as this is in the news it is going to build on animosity toward the Islam religion.
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GRR. Just hit the wrong button, and lost a long post. Here goes again:
I'm a depression baby, as are many of us. We never threw away anything. Now I'm almost as bad as everyone else.
A lot of things are made to be thrown away. Small appliances used to last for decades, now they break down in a year or two and "can't be repaired". Clothes are meant to be thrown away after they go out of fashion (i.e. next year). Bottles used to be heavy glass and recyclable: now the planet is drowning in throw-away drink bottles. Even with recycling, we are drowning in trash.
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Katrina is everywhere! There's a program on tthe "Discovery Channel" called Dirty Jobs. Yesterday, they (re-)broadcast an episode where the host helped a team that was going into houses, a year after Katrina, and gutting them, so the house could be salvaged and rebuilt. You can't imagine what this house looked like. It was so horrible, I couldn't watch the whole thing!
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One of the questions above is about what to do when a hurricane is coming.
Well, today, here we are on Cape Cod, the sun is bright, and a hurricane is coming, probably. The forecasts are never certain. There's not much to do in preparation.
We are staying put, based on prior experience. But this neighborhood is nothing like New Orleans. I think we would have left, if possible, if we'd been in New Orleans.
When I read about Zeitoun's successful business, I immediately wished we had someone
like him around. Imagine, someone who would put up plywood over windows if needed.
There's no one here to do that on a moments notice. But neither we nor our neighbors
are doing that, as we not directly on the water. Nor are we below sea level.
As expected, reading on the Kindle has not worked out well for a reading group, as it's
too difficult to find anything on pages read before. And,of course, I was not well organized and I didn't make notes as I read, but just let the story carry me along.
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Ella, I think the Muslim Cultural Center should be built on the land in question. We have something in this country called "religious freedom". This center is not on ground zero and it is not a mosque. It's a community center. You know, where kids can come and play safely.
I'm ashamed of this country for being so very bigoted. All immigrants are looked on suspiciously by us "original" Americans. Germans, Irish, Jews, blacks, Hispanics, now muslims. They are a peace-loving people. Their religion is very much like ours. They worship the same God. They didn't fly planes into the Twin Towers. Fanatics did. This talk makes me physically ill. I'll be going now.
Nancy (a Jew)
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No, no, don't go. We agree with you about bigotry and intolerance.
JoanK, Jewish by marriage, with Jewish children, bringing Syrian baklava to the discussion.
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Of course there's a right to build the cultural center on any ground that's zoned for it. Is it a good idea to build it two blocks from Ground Zero? It could be a very good idea if it leads to better understanding of what Islam is really about. But it's risky too, since someone could take some unfortunate action against it.
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I agree, Ella - I think that Zeitoun would say build it - no, wait, I think he'd volunteer to help build it! ;) I tried to find out more about the proposed building in NYC...and find that as Nancy says, it is not really a mosque - but rather a 13 story building that includes many facilities, prayer rooms included. Perhaps that is the point of controversy? People might understand it to be a place of worship? I read that a recent poll shows 68 per cent of Amercans feel it should be located elsewhere. There is actually a mosque two blocks from this proposed site and there doesn't seem to be any reaction to that.
As PatH points out, this proposed Cultural Center is located not right at Ground Zero, but rather two blocks from it. Here's some irony - the proposed Center is called "the Cordoba Initiative and the original name "Cordoba House" was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, Spain, which they called a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews..."
Mippy, Earl seems to be losing steam - here's hoping you, and everyone else in the Northeast gets away with not much damage. It really is amzing to be reading this book, this part of the book - the eve of a hurricane, at the same time Earl is threatening.
I keep wondering whether Zeitoun was part of the rebuillding in New Orleans after Katrina...but am forcing myself from going ahead. I love the way Eggers is building the drama. JoanK, I just can't imagine what it is like for volunteers to go into the destroyed homes. They'd all have to be demolished from the ground up, don't you think ?
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Good morning all and Hurricane Earl is now a Category 2 storm and I am glad for MIPPY and others that live near or the coast. So far no damage.
AND I THINK WE ARE A LITTLE CROSS-SECTION OF AMERICA, don't you, and the majority of us believe the center (thank you, NANCY AND JOANP) should be built. The state zoning board, whatever they call it, has agreed and all the hub-bub about it will die down - HOPEFULLY - when it is built. As mentioned there is a mosque nearby; actually I think I heard there are 100 mosques in NYC or was it the state?
Cordoba, Spain! Here is a site, beautiful city, lovely climate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain
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But America still has a racist problem, even though we elected an African-American president, I think, and that is difficult and then on top of that, the couple in our book, Zeitoun and Kathy, are Muslims. How difficult it must be to see a TIME magazine cover that says IS AMERICA ISLAMOPHOBIC?
What is your opinion. ARE WE?
Strange that America would be intolerant of religion; however, when we look back on our history there have been other times and we have, as a nation, conquered our distrust and fears. There were Catholics, Mormons, Quakers, Jews, as NANCY posted.
I must confess that Kathy's insistence on wearing the hijab confuses me. Even in her mother's house!
Here is a good article on the subject:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/hijabcanada4.htm
Is this so very different than the Catholic nun who used to wear the complete black robe, even hiding her hair. Of course, they don't anymore, but they did when I was a child.
YOUR COMMENTS?
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That's an interesting article, Ella, and even more surprising that the teenagers wore the hijab by choice, and felt comfortable with it. And in the book, Kathy jokingly told a friend how it covered up her extra pounds.
I think it's sad that the building of the Muslim Cultural Center in New York has become such a national issue. It's a New York city issue and shouldn't have anything to do with the rest of us. It wasn't until some non-New Yorkers (unnamed) picked up on it for political reasons (long before the President made his remarks) that it became an issue. Then of course the media got way overinvolved.
And now the whole realm of Islam/Muslim has become a political issue, repeatedly being fed by polls, speeches, etc.
I'm glad to know that others still keep rubber bands on door knobs. :)
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Rubber bands on doorknobs!! NO, NO, NO. My daughter does that all the time and it irritates me! She, too, is very conscious of her budget, which is a good thing.
Yes, PEDLIN, the media blows/talks everything out of proportion and it is with us day and night, pounding us with their bluster! I don't watch TV much, just a little news at night and a good movie if there is one.
THE MEDIA WAY OVERINVOLVED! - Pedlin
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ELLA: that was a very good article. It changed the way I think about Muslim dress.
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Pedln, I noticed Kathy's comment that she liked the hijab because it covered up her extra pounds, but I don't think that was the reason she wore it when she went home to spend time with her family, her sisters. I got the feeling that she was feeling somewhat defensive about her decision to convert. This was her way of showing her family that she was serious and demanded respect.
It took courage to wear it in public in New Orleans in the years following 9/11.
I don't think I'd say we live in a racist country - but I think the country became Islamophobic immediately after 9/11. Once we found who was responsible for the attacks we came to realize that it was the fanatic al-Qaida who was responsible, attitudes changed - though the fear of al-Qaida persists.
Kathy's Southern drawl was good for doing business over the phone. Perhaps their business would not have been as successful as it was without her accent setting up schedules. Bruce and I spent some time in the Garden District where Zeitoun and Co. did a a lot of work - a really fantastic historic district...we walked by Anne Rice's house several times. Her house didn't stand out in the neighborhood - all the houses in this neighborhood - so you get an idea of the kind of houses Zeitoun worked on -
Anne Rice's house in the Garden District - click to see (http://www.asergeev.com/pictures/archives/2006/497/jpeg/02.jpg)
I don't think Zeitoun had trouble getting business because of his crew of immigrants - the quality spoke for itself. Did you notice that Kathy was driving an "Odyssey" van - top of the line. They were doing great before the storm hit.
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Oh, that's beautiful, JOANP!! I'd love to see the inside of that house, wouldn't you? And the tree? What kind of tree is that? I've never read any of her books have you? Here's the Wikipedia site for her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Rice
Did you wonder as you read these pages (PART I) why Eggers wove into the book all those accounts of Zeitoun's boyood, his family, his brother - the champion swimmer and the family's close bond with each other?
Does all of this tell us something of Zeitoun's character, his ethics, his behavior?
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MIPPY, it takes me awhile, I'm slow, mentally slow, but I just realized that I have the paperback of the book, ZEITOUN, and here I am putting in page numbers and they don't correspond to the hardcover book at all. And, of course, they don't help KINDLE USERS at all! Do I need help???
Somehow, we can conquer these problems; I know (but you can't fire me, I'm a volunteer!) Hahaa
Does it help by dividing the book into chapters for our discussion?
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Ella ~ Thanks for seeing my note that the Kindle readers cannot use page numbers, so that Chapter numbers would indeed help.
All's fine here on Cape Cod, as the tropical storm stayed off shore and only dropped a lot of rain. Some streets are slightly flooded, and very few people even had power outages.
When I woke up at 5 a.m. I could hardly believe the clock was still running, as even a car hitting a tree somewhere in the town usually causes a short power failure.
We are all very lucky indeed!
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Ella, thank you so much for that enlightening link to women wearing hijabs. I found it similar to meeting someone online. I met my second husband online and we purposely didn't exchange pictures for two months. Because of that, we found that our personalities meshed perfectly.
I think the stories of Zeitoun's childhood does show us a bit about why he came to be the way he was. After the levies broke, he and others rescued people stranded in their homes, fed abandoned dogs, etc. He didn't flee the city as his wife wanted him to. He is a very ethical, caring individual - and there aren't many of his kind around these days.
Why? Because our younger generations were given everything they wanted without even asking. They developed an attitude of entitlement. With that kind of attitude, you only think of yourself, not the welfare of others.
Nancy
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:o
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/zeitoun/zeitouncvr.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 PART I
Sept. 9 - 16 PART II
Sept. 17- 23 PART III
Sept. 24 - 30 PART IV - V
Related links::
Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak (http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/);
About David Eggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers); the town of Arwad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad);
FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION
1. Which of the images of the flood in the book was the most vivid to you? Why?
2. Zeitoun has strong, almost poetic, feelings about his canoe, and his travels in it.. .It makes him realize that he can be an explorer. While in it, he feels peace in his heart in the middle of disaster. Later, he says it is the canoe’s quiet nature that enables him to hear the softest cries for help. Do you understand these feelings? Do you have any object that you feel that way about?
3. In the book, there are many people who help:( Zeitoun, Frank, Yuko). And others who don’t (Cathy’s family, the many people who passed Zeitoun by, or promised to help but didn’t). Why does disaster bring out the best in some people and not in others? Have you experienced this?
4. Which of Zeitoun’s brothers do you think influenced him more: Mohammad or Ahmad? What do the stories of Zeitoun’s past add to the book?
5. Would you have gone to Phoenix, as Cathy did? Was it a wise decision? Do you have a friend like Cathy’s friend Yuko:” I’m your sister. You’re my sister. You’re all I have.”
6. Would you have worked as hard to save the dogs as Zeitoun did?
7. Do you understand why Zeitoun stayed, or do you, like Cathy, think he should have gone?
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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MIPPY: I'm so glad you're alright. That was scary.
On the TV interview, Cathy wore both the head covering and the traditional dress. She says in the book that the dress is a relief in situations where she worries about what to wear: it covers everything.
I was struck in the article Ella posted by the woman who said that wearing the traditional clothes forces people to concentrate on who she is and not what she looks like. (Of course in this country, it brings up all kinds of stereotypes about her.
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Have just now finished sec. 1. I really like Eggers' style -- we know what happened in New Orleans, but his writing still has an aura of suspense. Even though you know better, you're hoping things will be okay for this family.
And what a delightful family. I love the viewing of P & P for the umpteenth time, Kathy along with the girls. And the story telling at bedtime, with Zeitoun watching from the doorway. The children must think their mom so cool, and their dad such a rock, so stable.
I'm trying to pinpoint their house on my map. It's on Dart street -- there are two in NewO. Was there a particular section of NewO mentioned, where they lived? I see what Kathy meant when she said she got on I-10 going the wrong way, and would have to cross the lake and take the long way to Baton Rougue. Can you visualize that -- being in being in 6 to 8 parking-lot lanes of traffic, not being able to change direction.
Were you surprised to hear that the Superdome had been used more than once in previous emergencies, and had been found to be lacking?
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Pedln, I'm remembering the scene where Kathy and the girls fell asleep together on the bed - how moved Zeitoun was at the sight. A very loving close-knit family, as you say. I wonder whether the girls will wear the hijab - will Kathy let them decide?
I was curious and looked for a map of their house - it seems to be not too far from the French Quarter - or the Garden District either. His home should not have been flooded. I found something curious in searching for the map - first I want to say that I haven't read beyond Part I...so I don't know what happened to the family after Katrina. I don't know if they are living/working in New Orleans today. I DON'T WANT TO KNOW - and I don't want to spoil the suspense for those who don't know where they are living now.
That said - while searching for their street address I found this - http://www.superpages.com/bp/New-Orleans-LA/A-Zeitoun-Painting-Contractors-L2063307898.htm
It's an ad for the A Zeitoun Painting and Contractors - phone numbers - a map and directions to the office - two offices actually. There is a little map that can be enlarged - and you can see most of New Orleans. This ad could be an old one - from before the flood - you know how things remain forever once on the Net. If you think there may be a spoiler here for you, don't click the link - but I saw nothing to indicate when the ad was put up.
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MIPPY, I'VE CHANGED THE HEADING TO REFLECT A BETTER DIVISION OF THE BOOK, AND I HOPE IT WILL BE HELPFUL TO KINDLE USERS.
I WILL BE GONE TODAY, AND DON'T HAVE TIME TO RESPOND TO THE RECENT POSTS. BUT HAVE READ THEM, AND WOULD LOVE TO - WILL LATER
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I DON'T WANT TO KNOW - and I don't want to spoil the suspense for those who don't know where they are living now.
I don't want to know ahead either. Obviously they survived the storm, though, since they're giving interviews.
Eggers' approach is very good for suspense building. He starts off with the approaching storm, and gradually builds suspense for it, but alternates with his background material--the story of the Zeitouns, their life, family, upbringing, etc. So we care more and more about them, and that builds the suspense more. And he hasn't gotten off to a slow start by giving us all the background first.
Incidentally, it's a great reporting job to get so much of their inner life out of the couple.
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The house on Dart STreet -- according to my STreets and Roads program -- was FIVE miles from Lake Ponchartain (as the crow flies) and 1 1/2 to 2 miles from the Mississippi R.
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I like the description of the bantering style between Cathy and Zeitoun. I saw this in the interview. She was complaining about him (for assuming that she was having a good time without him), and he just sat there.
I was really tempted when I read the book to sneak a peek at the end (something I NEVER do) to see if they were alright. You at least know that they can give interviews.
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David Eggers puts so much of the personalities into the "characters" in his book - and creates such suspense, you feel as if you are reading a novel, rather than an historical account of what happened in New Orleans after Katrina, don't you think? Every so often I find myself doing a search on something described in the book - wanting to assure myself of the reality of the story, I guess.
One of the places described was the Presbytere Museum on Jackson Square - "It was a high profile job and Zeitoun wanted to get it right." I'll say it was high profile - Most who visit New Orleans will remember it -
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Presbytere9JulyA.jpg/250px-Presbytere9JulyA.jpg)
I love the way Zeitoun takes such personal interest in each of the sites he is working on - As the storm approaches, he visits 18 sites, bringing in equipment, boarding windows, etc.
Mippy - I'm glad the storm veered off to sea before doing much damage. Somehow, with Hurricane Earl past us, some of the excitement of reading of the approach of Katrina has died down with the winds. Had that levee not given out, New Orleans would have gotten off with minimal damage too, don't you think?
I guess that's what I remember most about Katrina - the relief that the hurricane had passed and then the unbelievable pictures that followed. The pictures in my head - aerial photographs of the flooded areas - rooftops, treetops, people on the rooftops waving for help...
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That is an amazing building! I wonder what has happened to it?
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JoanK, the Presbytere was built in 1797 - that Zeitoun put so much work into - is located on Jackson Square in the center of the French Quarter. It is now part of the Louisiana State museum system - open to the public.
I looked up the reason why the French Quarter escaped major damage - and find that this was the old town, "built on dry land that predated New Orleans' levee systems and sits 5 feet (1.5 m) above sea level. Some streets experienced minor flooding, and several buildings experienced significant wind damage. Most of the major landmarks suffered only minor damage. The Quarter largely escaped the looting and violence after the storm; nearly all of the antique shops and art galleries in the French Quarter, for example, were untouched."
When Bruce and I visited a few years after the flood, we found no signs of the flood in the French Quarter - except for the number of boarded up businesses and the large contingent of volunteers enjoying the beignets at the Cafe du Monde before heading out to help in the rebuilding efforts in the 9th ward and other flooded areas.
I'm concluding that if Zeitoun did return to New Orleans, there are still plenty of his old customers who would welcome him with open arms.
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Thanks, JOANP, for putting that picture here. I love the history of some of these buildings. I don't know, JOANK, if the Museum was damaged during the flood or not. Here are two sites about it:
http://lsm.crt.state.la.us/Presbex.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andres_Almonaster_y_Rojas
That Rojas fellow was quite a guy! Owned half the town or built half of it, but he built many charitable institutions especially the Leper Hospital. I think we all know about the leper colony in Carville, Louisiana and the tragedies of the people who were sent there.
SATURDAY, August 27th:
Michael Brown, director of FEMA, told all residents to leave the city; to head inland as fast as they could. Katrina could become a Category 5 by the time it made landfall and a Category 5 hurricane had only struck the USA 3 times before and never New Orleans.
The airport had closed and the Louisiana National Guard had called 4000 troops into service.
Why was the Guard called in at this time? And I don't I remember if this is the only military service that was called up; I will watch as we read further.
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Hi JOANP. Thanks for that information. I have heard of the French Quarter all my life; one of those places I never visited though. Somehow or other I thought that it was "sin city" and two women shouldn't visit alone!!! My husband would not travel, so it was my daughter or a girlfriend that I traveled with. I went fishing at Lake Erie with my husband, which was fun, too, but it wasn't inspiring architecture.
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I, too, have heard of the French Quarter all my life, but never knew what it is. New Orleans is certainly unique among American cities. I'm sad now that I never visited it.
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The French Quarter is still there, still intact. And "girls" are safe there alone...well, maybe not during Mardi Gras when everyone goes crazy! ;D
I think New Orleans had plenty of time to get ready for the hurricane - to board up, to evacuate, time to call in the National Guard to help what looked like a sure hurricane disaster. Ironic, the hurricane was not the problem, but the surge that caused the levee to break was. Do you remember seeing all those people crammed into the Superdome - the overflowing toilets, etc? Was really surprised to read that it had been used in the past and was found inadequate then, too. Doesn't it make you wonder what the plan is for the next emergency?
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JOANP, I hope that FEMA has learned from this disaster, certainly something - not to use the Superdome again in case of a hurricane in New Orleans! But what was the alternative? I know all those buses sitting empty and you wonder who was in charge and why wasn't it all done properly? But there was no plan, no drill, so to speak.
Who to blame? That is the question and the media can provide numerous answers, indeed, yes.
Where is everyone? Out partying over Labor day I imagine?? Lots of grilling? Overeating? I did a fair bit of that yesterday, not a good thing to do.
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Oh my, where to start with my responses/questions. I have been busy with company and before that doctor's appointments, so haven't taken time to post my thoughts.
First, Ella, I live in central Texas. However, my husband, daughter & I lived in Baton Rouge for 9 years. We made many trips to N.O. and my daughter's school took field trips there every year. I went along with them as a parent volunteer. Lovely city with so much atmosphere and character. Girlfriends and I strolled the French Quarter numerous times and ate at some outstanding restaurants. I just cried when I watched the destruction and the helplessness of people caught.
The refugees that stayed with us were part of my family. The churches in our area helped sponsor some families. My town is very small (about 5,000) and we are in central TX..There were several families that took refuge here.
Now to my thoughts on the book to date. It is well-written and captures my interest, but so far, I have controlled myself and not read ahead. I think the part that tells about Kathy's family values growing up is when she says that her friend's mother used to bathe her when she went to visit, because bathing was not a top priority in Kathy's house! I find myself wondering why Kathy felt in necessary to dress the way she did when her husband did not wear his native clothing. My mind is having trouble with that and I am trying not to be too judgemental.
Zeitoun probably used a lot of day laborers (construction companies do that). Most of the day laborers are immigrants. There may also been a reluctance for "legal" construction people to work for a Muslim who could not speak English very well.
Finally, when the book states that "Americans fall short of their best selves"---I think that probably hold true no matter what nationality you are. I am saddened when I hear about man's inhumanity to man!!
Enough for now~
Sally
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HELLO SALLY! Am happy to see your post this morning! I knew some of us were away over the holiday and, hopefully, will return as we finish PART I of the book. Thanks for sticking to the schedule.
"My mind is having trouble with that (Kathy's persistence in wearing the cultural dress of the Muslim faith) and I am trying not to be too judgemental.
Yes, I think we all are! We see woman in traditional clothing in my city of Columbus, Ohio all the time. I may be very wrong about this, but I think when their children become teenagers (and beyond) they will not longer feel it is necessary. Second generation and all that!! What do you think?
This cultural religion that Kathy joined is so new to her and then she married a Muslim. Big chnges and influences in her life.
Reading about the preacher who counted the collection plate in church and chastised the congregation for not giving enough and then the other incident in church when the minister sneered at Kathy openly one can see how the teenager would search elsewhere for something to believe in. And her friend, Yuko had found comfort in Islam. It was a natural progression.
Or not? What do you think?
Our book started with the day FRIDAY, August 26th. On SUNDAY, August 28th, Mayor Nagin ordered the city's first-ever mandatory evacuation. We'll discuss the importance of that order in our next section of the book.
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Sometimes converts to a religion are more observant than those who grew up with it. I have noticed that several times.
In the TV interview, Cathy wore not only the headdress but the traditional dress as well. But we know fron the book that that was not her usual practice (when Zeitoun first saw her, she was wearing jeans!) I am guessing she did this on the interview either to hide her weight, because she didn't have Western clothes that were chicky enough for TV (I certainly don't -- If I had to appear on TV, I'd love to have something like that to "hide behind"), or perhaps to make a statement about her new religion.
If you were to be on a TV show, what would you wear?
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What would I wear if I were asked to be on TV?
What a question, JOANK! I would worry about it for days and days; should I be myself and dress normally or should I go buy something expensive, get makeup and hair done? What statement should I be making?
I'm 82 years old, what can one do with a body like this? And then there are days when my voice comes out so weak sounding I can't believe I'm hearing it. That's not me.
I wish I could have seen the interview with the Zeitouns, is it on Youtube?
But I can understand Kathy wearing the traditional dress, she is making a statement; proclaiming herself to be a wife to a Muslim husband and mother, a converted Muslim herself.
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There are a number of interviews with Zeitoun on youtube, but they all focus on parts of the book that we haven't read yet. I suggest we wait until later to look at them.
But I was wrong!! Looking, I see Cathy was not wearing traditional dress -- I don't know why I thought she was.
Here is a short exerpt from Tavis Smiley, but don't watch it if you don't want to know what happens later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1M5iaAISD0&feature=fvhl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1M5iaAISD0&feature=fvhl)
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My internet access turned flaky again, so this is something I wrote earlier today. (Anyone thinking of signing up with Earthlink, please talk to me first.)
Wearing the traditional dress seems like a very logical result of the way Kathy was converted. Her life was going through an incredibly difficult patch. Deeply religious, she looked to her faith for comfort and strength, but it wasn't working. Her trusted friend led her to Islam the right way, showing her its beauty, and how it was really just a different aspect of what she already believed, and what comfort and stability it could give. Friends and family didn't accept her choice. The dress was her way of making a statement: this is who and what I am now, whatever you may think. This is real. This is me.
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I can see Kathy wearing the traditional dress on TV, JoanK - but am still wondering about her wearing it when she went home to relaz with her sisters and her mother. Something else was going on there, don't you think?
I think we are blessed to have you with us, Salan - you lived in Baton Rouge, where Kathy and the girls are staying - and you took in hurricane refugees. You know what these people lived through.
Can't find much on the Superdome and plans for future emergencies. Everything I'm reading indicates there is a new plan in place for feeding stations around the city, but the emphasis is on the fact that it was the breached levee that caused the flood. It is believe that the repaired levees will prevent such flooding again. At least, is where the federal money is going. Here's an excerpt from one article I read -
"NEW ORLEANS — Five years after Hurricane Katrina flooded more than 80 percent of this city, the Army Corps of Engineers says billions of dollars of work has made the city much safer and many of its defenses could withstand a storm as strong as the deadly 2005 hurricane.
Since Katrina flooded New Orleans on Aug. 29, 2005, and killed more than 1,800 people, New Orleans has become a round-the-clock construction site and Congress gave the Army Corps more than $14 billion to fix and upgrade the levees and other defenses. Numerous breaches in the hurricane protection system led to the flooding that devastated the New Orleans area. The corps says about half of the work is complete, and the rest should be finished by next summer.
The threat of flooding from another storm remains a top concern in the city, which has a population that's about 80 percent of what it was before Katrina.
The corps has given itself until June 2011 to make the city safer from big storms, and says it will meet the deadline. Once the upgrades are complete, the corps says very little of the city would flood if a storm like Katrina were to hit again.
The corps' brass say that even such a storm were to hit tomorrow, the city would be in much better shape.
Rogers said that while "everybody's attention is focused on what failed the last time," the next major storm could expose new weak points.
Despite the uncertainties, residents are feeling better about their chances."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gXUh265j76zf8hFaymiXyBZjwbXgD9HRV6QG0
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I remember being glued to the TV during the days after Katrina. I couldn't believe that no one was coming to help. "Heck of a job, Brownie!" indeed. ProPublica wrote many stories about the aftermath of the storm: http://www.propublica.org/nola/
One of the reporters, Sheri Fink, won an award for her story about what happened at the Memorial Medical Center: http://www.propublica.org/topic/deadly-choices-memorial-medical-center-after-katrina
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"Friends and family didn't accept her choice." - PATH
How difficult would that be for a family? Particularly when your daughter is so zealous that she wears a headdress in your own home? I think I would accept that, probably go to the mosque with her, and wear a headdress also, but I don't know!!!
Can one visit a mosque without being Muslim do you think?
Thanks, JOANP, for that information about the repairing, rebuilding of the levees. Do you think that the people along the east coast were more willing and better prepared to evacuate when Hurricane Earl was in the news because of Katrina? It would be great if a couple good things came out of this disaster. I think possibly the media should have shown the thousands of people who came to help from across America. Several churches in my little town of Gahanna sent members down for weeks. I have a neighbor who went for a month and she will never get over the destruction of a city that she saw and the poor people who had no place to go.
NANCY, do you get most of your news from the PROPUBLICA site? While I am asking what do you believe about the Internet replacing the newspaper, news magazine and TV?
Isn't it amazing that Zeitoun's brothers and sisters have all done so well all over the world; his cousin in New Orleans owning 4 Subway franchises. And they are so close; if he makes one phone call to any of them he gets the news from all the family.
Tomorrow we go on to the next section, but we haven't mentioned the rainbow on Zeitoun's truck. He was ignorant of the meaning of it, as was I, but it shows his character that he left it there.
"Think about it, he said. We're a Muslim couple running a painting company in Louisiana. Not such a good idea to turn away clients."
It wasn't complicated, Zeitoun laughed.
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I'm not sure that the evacuations from East Coast beach towns went smoothly as Earl threatened - those who had rentals for summer cottages were under mandatory evacuation orders - but if they didn't have to go, the residents stayed on. I was watching the Outer Banks of North Carolina because that's our favoirte vacation spot - almost bought a cottage right on the beach years ago - but you couldn't get insurance for it - so Bruce wouldn't take the chance. Such a vulnerable strip of land off-shore - these are barrier islands. Still people stayed there despite warnings. I guess they don't connect hurricane damage, sea surges, etc. with the levee in New Orleans. A real test will be how smoothly evacuation goes out of New Orleans the next time a hurricane threatens...
I had never heard of the rainbow as a symbol of anything but Jesse Jackson's multicultural Rainbow coalition - which is actually a good symbol for A. Zeitoun's business - the workers he hired of many races. When did the rainbow become a symbol for gay pride? Maybe it was the rainbow shown a a flag instead of the usual rainbow arc? I looked it up and found this~
Gay & Lesbian Pride Symbols
Common Pride Symbols and Their Meanings
Use of the Rainbow Flag by the gay community began in 1978 when it first appeared in the San Francisco Gay and Lesbian Freedom Day Parade. Borrowing symbolism from the hippie movement and black civil rights groups, San Francisco artist Gilbert Baker designed the rainbow flag in response to a need for a symbol that could be used year after year. The 6 Colors of the flag are Red for life Orange for healing Yellow for sun Green for nature Blue for harmony Purple for spirit
(http://www.overtherainbowshop.com/symbol2.jpg)
I think the Zeitoun's response when told of this meaning was telling - indicating their confidence in themselves and the quality of the work that they did. There is not tolerance for prejudice or bias in their vocabulary.
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That's interesting about the rainbow. I'm not sure I would have recognized the symbolism either.
Tomorrow we start the new section. I'm really looking forward to it This is the best part of the book IMO.
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In Maryland, I had neighbors who unexpectadly had triplets, giving them six children under the age of 8. They (probably the husband) decided to go for a vacation on the Outer Banks. They spent hours loading the car with all the equipment needed for these kids, drove down there and spent hours unloading. They were no sooner finished than a neighbor came running over "You can't stay--- a hurricane is coming."
So they spent hours loading up again, drove home, and spent hours unloading. "I'll never go on a vacation again" the mother told me. "I've never been so exhausted in my life."
(Later, the husband got offered a job abroad. "Servants are cheap there. We're going!" she said.
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"And they are so close; if he makes one phone call to any of them he gets the news from all the family."
He's not the only one! I called my sister-in-law yesterday to wish her happy new year, and got all the news about her four children and eleven grandchildren. Today, I have to call my daughter and pass it on. She'll want to know what every last one of them is doing -- heaven forbid I should forget. I should have taken notes!
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This morning, I read a short article, on page 6, in the September 13th issue of Newsweek. It is titled "The Guard's New Recruits In Iowa. This article says that "Louisianna's amd Missiissippi's Guard entire units were in Afghanistan and Iraq, when Katrina made landfall in 2005". It took 2 days for the depleted Kansas guard to respond to a tornado in 3007.
No wondeer there was not an immediate response to Katrina!
Sheila
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Ella, I get my news from various sources. These days, I trust none of them without verification. Internet news is especially weak in truth. It used to be that opinion was kept on the "opinion" page. Now, opinion is news.
If I had to trust one news source, it would have to be PBS. ~~ Nancy
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I was born and raised in Baton Rouge (8l.5 years ago)and never left "the nest"---so to speak. Baton Rouge is only about an hour or less from N. O.
One of my daughters and family live on the Northshore (Mandeville)---across Lake Pontchartrain from N. O. When Katrina threatened, they had a 10 day old baby, a 1 year old, and an 8 year old. My daughter and children came home to Baton Rouge when the evacuation notices got urgent. Her husband stayed behind to close up the house, etc. By the time he was on I-10 from Mandeville to B. R. all traffic was a one-way only direction. It took him about 6 hours to make a trip that usually takes about 1 hour. BTW-- ( Lake Pontchartrain is 25 miles across from N. O. via the Causeway.)
JOY-in Baton Rouge,LA
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Goodness, joyous, what an ordeal, going through all that 10 days after giving birth. Thank goodness they all got away safely.
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Hi SHEILA! Thanks for the post!
Mississippi (I love typing that name) National Guard. Not home to help with the flood! Well, here is a paragraph from Wikipedia stating much the same:
"Some concern over the availability and readiness of the Louisiana National Guard to help stabilize the security situation was raised. Guardsman Lieutenant Colonel Pete had commented that "dozens of high water vehicles, humvees, refuelers, and generators were abroad."[58] At the time of the hurricane, approximately 3,000 members of the Guard were serving a tour of duty in Iraq. With total personnel strength of 11,000, this meant that 27% of the Louisiana National Guard was abroad." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orleans
We have never instituted a draft for these middle-eastern wars, Iraq and Afghanistan, and consequently, the government is getting troops wherever they can, and using them for 2-3-4 tours.
What should they do instead?
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It is posts like yours, Joy, that keep reminding me that this dramatic story is real, that none of this is fiction. I guess I wasn't surprised that Kathy was finding the situation in Baton Rouge stifling. Everyone's tempers were short living in such close quarters. I was surprised that she didn't wait for Zeitoun though - that she went on to Texas without him. It was as if she didn't think he was going to come to her and the children any time soon.
And what about him - staying on in the flooded city? At first I understood that he felt he needed to board up the projects he was working on - gather the equipment and secure it so that it wouldn't cause damage once the hurricane hit. But afterwards, after the flood, he seems to be on a high, feeding the animals, paddling around in his little canoe trying to be of help to those not picked up in the motor boats or helicopters. He really seemed to like the idea of being a hero...without too much concern for what Kathy was going through. Do you look at him as a selfless hero?
Ella, we were posting together - will be back to consider your question in a few minutes...
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NANCY, I AGREE, NPR is probably the best news source and, besides, there are no commercials and they are factual with not a lot of debate, opinions (and "opinions are news elsewhere, yes!).
JOYOUS, I have a question. It was Lake Ponchartrain that flooded the city right? Not the Mississippi River? I can't seem to get that straight in my mind. I know in our book Zeitoun states that it was Lake water coming in on Tuesday, August 30th, and he started moving everything up to the roof. I think I would agree with what he took up, what he was able to carry through the roof. MERCY!
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Hello JOANP. I wondered the same also. Why didn't he leave after he checked everything he owned. Kathy was begging him to come and he was a good husband, father. I would have been exasperated with him, as she was.
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We have put new questions in the heading for your consideration as you read our next section, PART II. The Flood!
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Maybe we're being too hard on him, Ella - thinking too much of how Kathy must have been feeling. Imagine watching the scene unfold on TV - floating rooftops - armed looters. Could he have made his way to Baton Rouge at that point? Or was it too late? Those who wanted out just found a way to the helicopters and were air lifted - to where? I'm not sure he could have gotten to her if he wanted to. (But it seems that he was having an exhiliarating time right there in his canoe...
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How do you feel about him and his canoe? Do any of you understand how he felt?
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It seems to me that his first responsibuility should have been to his family! I can not understand why they didn't all stay together. His children must have been traumatized not hearing from him for days. It must have left emotional scars on each of them.
I also find it strange that Kathy didn't tell her husband that if things got out of hand in Texas, she would go on to Arizona. In addition, why didn't he keep Kathy's phone number in his pants? He seems to have assumed that the phone would continue to work in his rental property. Under the circumstances that was an absured possibility.
ELLA, IMO, our troops should not have been in the Middle East. The Guard's primary responsibility is to protect the USA. Each time I hear how many deaths there have been, over there, I get angry. Also, how much money this has cost.
Sheila
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:o
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/zeitoun/zeitouncvr.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 PART I
Sept. 9 - 16 PART II
Sept. 17- 23 PART III
Sept. 24 - 30 PART IV - V
Related links::
Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak (http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/);
About David Eggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers); the town of Arwad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad);
FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION
1. Which of the images of the flood in the book was the most vivid to you? Why?
2. Zeitoun has strong, almost poetic, feelings about his canoe, and his travels in it.. .It makes him realize that he can be an explorer. While in it, he feels peace in his heart in the middle of disaster. Later, he says it is the canoe’s quiet nature that enables him to hear the softest cries for help. Do you understand these feelings? Do you have any object that you feel that way about?
3. In the book, there are many people who help:( Zeitoun, Frank, Yuko). And others who don’t (Cathy’s family, the many people who passed Zeitoun by, or promised to help but didn’t). Why does disaster bring out the best in some people and not in others? Have you experienced this?
4. Which of Zeitoun’s brothers do you think influenced him more: Mohammad or Ahmad? What do the stories of Zeitoun’s past add to the book?
5. Would you have gone to Phoenix, as Cathy did? Was it a wise decision? Do you have a friend like Cathy’s friend Yuko:” I’m your sister. You’re my sister. You’re all I have.”
6. Would you have worked as hard to save the dogs as Zeitoun did?
7. Do you understand why Zeitoun stayed, or do you, like Cathy, think he should have gone?
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
I thought of Sheila's comments on the emotional scars on kids whose world was turned upside down during and after Katrina. Here's a video clip of kids who are back in New Orleans, coping with the memory... (at the beginning of the clip you can see the Cafe du Monde - and smell the beignets...) Look for the big arrow to start the tape...
Katrina kids see city through new lens
Photographers who chronicled the horrors of Hurricane Katrina help kids see New Orleans in a new way
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39080221/ns/nightly_news-making_a_difference
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I can't get this book here yet but I am interested in just listening to everyones comments. (reading I should say!). My SIL is a Muslim and my daughter practices her own faith. You do not have to convert as a woman but a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a Christian Man. Its something to do with the Man covering the woman in the faith as head of the household. (Not much different from Christianity is it?)
I did watch the Katrina events unfold in New Orleans and yes many people could not conceive that there could be people so poor they could not leave. I understood this, as if not for my kids I would probably be like one of those people. I would not have a vehicle if not for the kids.
It was awful to see that person sitting in their wheelchair on the bridge with nowhere to go and there was no water for them to drink.
Carolyn
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CAROLYN: HI. WELCOME!
Hearing about your Muslim SIL is interesting. Does your family celebrate the Muslim holidays with him? I believe Eid Al-Fitr is today or tomorrow?
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No the only holiday my SIL observes is Ramadan and the holiday beginning with the letter E. He enjoys our Christmas trees and decorations but does not accept presents ( I do give him chocolate though on Christmas day) Many Muslims do practice certain hygiene and food things which go with their faith but do not go to the Mosque every day etc a bit like a lot of our Jewish compatriots who don't go to Synagogue every week but do celebrate their major holidays. He is very moderate and went to school with kids of all religions at a private school. His friends from his native land are Jewish Christian and Muslim. He is very moral however in his ideas and I am too about a lot of things. He does not drink alcohol as a rule. (not so much of a bad thing!)
Carolyn
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HELLO CAROLYN! Good to hear from you. Your SIL sounds like a good guy and fits in with your family well. And why not?
I know everyone has been glued to the TV the last couple of days to see if Pastor Jones is going to burn those Qurans. Oh, why, oh, why, are some people so ignorant, so downright stupid!!! I hope we have heard the last of that!!
BUT THE SAINTS ARE MARCHING IN! The Superdome that is -
The New Orleans Saints just played their season opener on a pasture of brand-new, emerald-green playing turf. - The Dome,” as it’s known locally, is home to the city’s beloved football team, and some feared that if it wasn’t fixed fast enough, the Saints would leave—further wounding a city that had just gone through the trauma of the storm.
Our author, Dave Eggers, has written much about Zeitoun's brothers and sisters, particularly his brother Muhammed who had been a champion swimmer and then he cruelly died in an auto accident.
Was there something about wanting to be a "hero" that possibly made Zeitoun stay behind to rescue people?
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I think Kathy and Zeitoun made the right decision as far as separation. Kathy needed to get the kids to safety so the adults wouldn't be distracted by fears for them. Zeitoun had business in New Orleans that he had to take care of.
As the hurricane passed over, Zeitoun found holes in his roof, but nothing of serious consequence. If the levees had held, that would have been the end of it. The aftermath of the hurricane no one expected or could have prepared for. And once Zeitoun found himself caught in it, he did the best to be helpful.
From our vantage points, sitting in our living rooms and watching the horror unfold, I don't think Zeitoun could have gotten out. And it was probably best for him to stay away from the areas of unrest in the city. Of course, I haven read the rest of the book.
Nancy
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Yes, Nancy, the decision seems logical in a way, BUT, law and order must prevail; particularly in a disaster. Mayor Nagin, on Sunday "ordered the city's first-ever mandatory evauation. Anyone who could leave must leave." At that time, Zeitoun could have left. The levees broke on Monday night, Tuesday morning.
Zeitoun had time before then to check his properties and do the riggin he had promised for people; he made a conscious decision to stay in his own home. However much we admire his motives, his desires to help, he was wrong, IMO. Of course, we wouldn't have this book to talk about and ponder over.
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Carolyn: that's the one I'm talking about, "the holiday beginning with the letter E". Eids. I THINK it's today. At least it is in Pakistan-- I'm glued to the US Open, and a Pakistani tennis player mentioned it. Apparently, it's different days in different places.
This is interesting, there is a doubles team (they were just runners-up in the finals) with one Indian member and one Pakistani player. They are playing together for world peace. As you all will remember, Pakistan was carved off from India by the British as a home for the Muslems, causing mass migrations of Muslems and Hindus, as well as massacres on both sides. India and Oakistan have been fighting ever since. But this team plays together as if they were twins. The Pakistani player is Muslem -- I don't know if the Indian player is Hindu.
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When my daughter was visiting her husbands homeland to meet his family she went out to dinner and as they were sitting there, 2 Muslim couples, one Christian girl with one Muslim boy, and a Jewish couple they all said "Why can't everyone be like us? Why can't the rest of the world be like this"
I must get this book as the events of Katrina moved me greatly and I also recently saw a doco based on 6 kids back in New Orleans at the most violent high school in the city trying to graduate in the wake of the return to their home city.
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Oh my gosh--I just lost my post right in the middle. Then it jumped me back to Zeitoun discussion and rapidly scrolled and highlighted the whole discussion!! I felt like some mysterious imp took over my computer, leaving me watching helplessly until it quit. So here I go again with my thoughts so far. Just my opinion to date and subject to change once I have finished the book.
Kathy was an "in you face" kind of person. She took pride in being different and liked the attention that it brought her. I felt she was insensitive by flaunting her Muslimism to her family. She knew that her attire would upset them and then she got offended when it did.
Zeitoun (I read somewhere that it was pronounced Zay-toon) did not want to leave; but from what I understand from those around me, it would have been almost impossible once the devastation hit. Roads were closed, or torn up. Gasoline stations were abandoned or out of gas, etc. It was a mad house leaving before the catastrophe hit. Bumper-to-bumber, inching along, gas running low, no stations around....and this was before the worst hit.
I felt that he should have left with his family. No THINGS were worth the risk. I always feel that way about those that stay behind when they have been told to evacuate. Some of the people there had no choice, but Zeitoun did.
Sally
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Have you seen any of the interviews with Zeitoun and Kathy? The one with Tavis Smiley? A.Zeitoun talks softly, modestly of his role in New Orleans, everyone goes on about his heroics after the flood - and Kathy sits there on the interview couch, never taking her eyes off of him with that bemused expression on her face. Wouldn't you love to know what she's thinking?
It's interesting to hear the different comments on whether or not he should have stayed behind for so long. Does anyone know where the helicopters were taking those they were picking up?
I haven't read past the second installment - don't know what will happen, but seeing these interviews we know he survived...and the marriage survived as they all appear together.
Sally, thanks for the proper pronunciation of Zeitoun. I was calling him Zeye-toon.
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You're welcome, Joan. I always like to know how to pronounce names/words. I frequently pronounce unfamiliar words incorrectly when I read; and have an "Ah, Ha" moment when I hear the correct pronunciation. I once read a whole series of books featuring a family named Onedin. I went through the whole series calling them One Din. Later, I saw a PBS production and found that they were called O need'n!
Did anyone one else think that Zeitoun was taking a chance by breaking into neighbors' houses to feed the animals? I would have done to same thing, but I can understand how others may have thought that he was a looter. I haven't read ahead, so don't know if this is what got him arrested.
Sally
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This post is not about the book, so skip it if you are not interested.
Now that we are in the second section of the book, and posting about whether or not to leave, it might be ok to write about one of our own experiences. We generally do not leave.
We sat through a hurricane in FL, taking advantage of a very visible eye of the storm to run outside with the dog for a rest stop. We were lucky, having no broken windows, although lots of big trees came down. It was very expensive to remove them later. There was no flooding in our neighborhood, as we are a few feet above sea level.
When that big one hit Florida in the 3rd week in October a few years ago (darn memory, cannot remember the name) we stayed home in Boca Raton (north of Miami, south of Orlando, to help you non-USA folks), but not exactly out of choice. Almost no gas stations had long-lasting generators, as in hospitals, so that they just closed; we would not have been able to refill our gas tank to drive if we'd headed away after the storm was over. We and our entire town had no power for 6 days.
We were fortunate to have all 3 adult kids living elsewhere with their families, so food was much less of an issue than for families with little ones. One supermarket 20 mins. away was open, although out of just about everything, so we managed. Most neighbors had working outdoor grills, so that helped with food. The main hardship for me was no hot coffee in the morning, but I finally begged some on the third day from a neighbor with a generator. Actually cold showers are not much fun, but we were happy to be ok.
We decided on the 5th day to get a generator. It would use up some of our gasoline to drive out to the only open store, 25 min away, that said they had a fresh stock of them. People were fighting over them a little, but we got one, got in line, and bought one. Of course that night the power came back on. Since that year, all gas stations in our town are required to upgrade to better generators.
Our experience was scary, but nothing like New Orleans. Law and order did not break down in our town, although apparently there were some problems in Miami. Not all of FL was without power that long, but some coastal regions had storm surges and some people really had no choice about going to shelters. We were lucky.
Now back to the book ...
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CAROLYn, get the book from your library if they have it. It's a good read and it gives us all a better understanding of what these people went through during the huricane!
SALAN, your vision of Kathy is interesting. And in-the-face type of person? That would be why her family didn't appreciate her new religious views or the way she dressed, possibly? She was efficient and a good worker, good mother, so she did have qualities we can appreciate. We don't what Zeitoun's family thought about his marriage do we? Or about Kathy?
We do know that his brother, Ahmad, (the one that kept calling from Spain) was very worried about his safety and kept urging him to leave the city as he knew from TV what was happening. I think Zeitoun could have left by helicopter; they were taking people to safety from the post office - Zeitoun paddled in his canoe past there with his friend Nasser and they talked about leaving the city.
Zeitoun was vioeotaped by a man with a camera and he hoped he might be on TV (still wanting to be a hero?). "The Zeitouns were proud, and there was plenty of sibling rivalry that had pushed them all to an array of achievements, all of them measured against the deeds of Mohammed (their champion brother)."
Kathy told him by phone that Mayor Nagin had ordered a forced evacuation of everyone remaining.
MIPPY, thanks for telling us about your experience in a hurricane. Did your mayor ask people to evacuate the city? You saw the eye of the storm? Kathy describes the hurricane as looking like a circular saw, I thought that was good description. You were out of power for 4 days?
That happened in my town, but it was due to an ice storm in 2004 I think it was and I wasn't home at the time. My pipes could have frozen except for a gas stove we had installed in a fireplace in our basement family room and it had no electrical ignition. The gas flowed freely (it had a temp guage, can't think of the word!)
I know all Muslims are approaching this day with some trepidation. I hope all is well.
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MIPPY: your experiences with hurricanes sound truly scary. My husband was from Florida, and as a kid , went through several hurricanes. He thought they were exciting-- too young to be scared.
I definitely think Zeitoun was right to have stayed at first. He knew his family was alright physically, and was worried about people who might die without his help. It was later, when the possibility of helping trapped people was gone, that I think he should have switched focus and left. Feeding the dogs made him feel he was still needed, but I wonder if that was an excuse.
But I definitely understand him, and might have done the same, even though wrongly. After all, this was a man who had spent years of his life "adventuring" on the seas -- this was as much a part of him as being a family man. If you think of it, all men who go to sea and leave their family behind are putting their family second, as he was. America was discovered by such men.
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To my astonishment The library system has just got the sound recording of this book! I just reserved it today and hopefully will have it by the end of the week. I can quickly listen for a day while I am doing household chores and contribute for the last week of the discussion. They did have the hardcover print but according to the catalogue it went missing. Someone has stolen it.
Carolyn
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I felt relieved that Zeitoun had found several of his neighbors had also stayed. He then had help rescuing some of the stranded people. He never seemed to be worried about his safety - even when his food ran out. I guess he knew help would come from somewhere.
I, too, think that when there were no more people to rescue, he should have left. Once the mandatory evacuation was announced, it was time for him to go. Otherwise, he could have been assumed to be one of the criminals looting and burning.
Nancy
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IMAGES OF THE FLOOD?
I'm going to answer two of the questions in the heading.
I have the paperback copy of the book; only one picture of the flood is in it. I remember from TV flooded streets! One doesn't streets to be flooded nor water to be up past the first floor of most of the houses. It's surreal. Every part of the country has disasters from time to time. Fires in California, dust storms in the desert, ice and snow in the north and hurricanes in Florida and along the coast.
One cannot live without nature going berserk at times and if we didn't live on earth these disasters are probably beneficial in some ways. I know fire is!
Yes, JOANK, I do believe that "adventure" was in Zeitoun's blood. Just think of his 10 years of roaming the seas and you made a good point in stating that America was discovered by such men.
CAROLYN, good! You can join in!
NANCY, that is quite an assumption Zeitoun made isn't it? That he would be rescued; he must have thought America would never stand by its laws or ethics or whatever? He never thought that a disaster might bring about the worst in some people? I think Kathy realized this, don't you?
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JoanK, I'm smiling at your comment about your husband being "too young" to be scared during Florida hurricanes...do you think that explains why Mippy stays put during hurricanes - her youth? ;)
I'm kidding - really! I'm starting to understand Zeitoun's mindset a bit better after reading these posts. He's confident in his ability to survive the situation, and he's really excited at what he is seeing - "a disaster mythical in scale and severity."
He mentions that he feels like an explorer in a new world. He likes the idea of being a hero -Ella reminds us how excited he was when interviewed - hoping the world will see him as a hero.
I think he's on a high - don't know what it will take to make him leave... Do you think maybe he's in shock - at least a bit?
I've been trying to find the part where he thinks about the danger of paddling around in his aluminum canoe with downed wires in the water. And the fires that were breaking out...the wires very well might be live, don't you think? How did he dismiss this danger, do you remember? If you locate that part, will you let me know?
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CAROLYN: great that you'll be with us. Someone stole the book?!? Good Grief!!
JOANP: "...do you think that explains why Mippy stays put during hurricanes - her youth?" DEFINATELY!
I thnk even if Zeitoun was scared, he wouldn't admit it. He was definately living in some kind of heroic dream. It's easy for us to sneer at that, but all the people who left their lives to come down and help may have been doing the same thing. We owe a lot to them.
NANCY: "he could have been assumed to be one of the criminals looting and burning." We'll find out if you're right.
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HaHa you gals, talking about youth ... I'm 70 years young and not shy about it.
Why stay at home? In the FL hurricane I wrote about, there was certainly no mandatory evacuation! It would have been absurd to send people out into windy, flooded streets, with all the traffic lights out. Almost everyone in my FL town was safer at home.
I also think Zeitoun should have left when mandatory evacuation was declared.
JoanK ~ I agree with you that he wanted to be a hero.
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Do you have a friend like Kathy had in Yuko?
"....given that she (Kathy) and Yuko were among the few non-African American kids in the neighborhood, they were bonded as outsiders."
We all bond for similar reasons, don't you think? Common interests?
My best friend and I met when we were young mothers in a church were we took turns being Sunday School teachers; we planned parties at holidays in the basement of the church. We started inviting each other for dinner; we were best friends until she got Alzheimers in her 70's. There was a period when our friendship was somewhat strained and now that I am a widow I can understand it. Her husband died first and she often came to our house and spent 2-3 days, but the difference (my having a husband) was between us.
Common interests. What is interesting and sad in this story is Kathy's relationship with her own family. Of course, it was "complicated" growing up with 8 siblings but Kathy's conversion to Islam was the straw it seems.
With time, possibly, she and her family and siblings may mend their difficulties?
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JOANP, I know I wondered the very same thing and I'm not sure that Eggers tells us why Zeitoun, after worrying about downed electrical wires and his aluminum canoe, set off canoeing again and wandering about the flooded city. He and his friend, Nasser from Syria also, were being very foolish; they had already been warned by a soldier with an M-16 rifle to get off the water. Battle-hardened National Guard soldiers were being sent into the vicinity.
Zeitoun, against the advice of his wife and his brother Ahmad (and most of his neighbors, residents, etc.) was being very defiant.
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T'is one of the hardest things about growing old, isn't it? Losing close friends...old friends, the ones who know you best. Like Kathy's friend Yuka, whose door was open for her and the kids when her own family made it clear that they were a burden. Kathy had already decided to leave when her sister - or was it her sister-in-law told her that Adnan and Abeer couldn't stay the one night. (Who were they? I forget.) I do remember Abeer was quite pregnant, nearly ready to deliver, sleeping in their car...
When she reached Arizona (is that right?) Yuka brought Kathy and the kids to a friend's house (another convert to Islam) where 10 other Katrina refugees were already camped out.
I can't imagine what it must have been like to watch the unfolding drama in New Orleans - the floating debris, the conditions at the Superdome...the armed looters. I can remember on 9/11 when the Pentagon was hit and the Federal Government shut down - sending ALL the workers home. They feared more planes were coming with the White House and the Capitol their targets. I was home, watching the conflagration on television and the pandemonium in DC everyone tried to get home at once. My husband and two sons were working there that day, trying to get home. I felt so helpless. Kathy must have felt this way.
From the way he tells it, Zeitoon saw very little of the conditions and the violence Kathy was seeing. He was feeding dogs, looking for more dog food for them...even gave the prostitute a lift on the way to "work"....
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I was home too, in the DC suburbs, watching the TV, feeling helpless. We were told there was another plane headed for DC (the one that later crashed in Pennsylvania), but no one knew where.
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A day none of us will ever forget! The Pentagon is less than a mile from our house. The kitchen window was open - I heard a huge explosion after the first plane hit the Pentagon. I had the TV on and was watching NY and knew a plane had hit the Pentagon - thought the second explosion was another plane coming in, but it was the first plane, exploding shortly after it had hit. Sirens and pandemonium. Noise
The situation in New Orleans was quite the opposite - silence. Except for the rescue helicopters and the motor boats...fan boats Eggers calls them. Ella, do you think those "fan boats" were manned by the National Guard? They weren't at all interested in rescuing the lone man paddling his canoe - or the people calling to them for help from their houses. I thought that Zeitoun showed his kind-heart again when he explained that the reason they didn't help those calling for help was because they couldn't hear them over the motors on the boats. Don't you wonder what the Ntional Guard thought of the armed looters? Did they not see them either?
Oh look, here's a picture of the fan boat - much larger than I pictured...the boat and the photo! I need to minimize the photo...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/USCG_Air_boat_New_Orleans.jpg/398px-USCG_Air_boat_New_Orleans.jpg)
- A U.S. Coast Guard air boat navigates the flooded streets of New Orleans. The Navy along with the Army, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard has been mobilized to take part in Joint Task Force Katrina, a humanitarian assistance operation in a joint effort led by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), in conjunction with the Department of Defense. (text by USN)
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:USCG_Air_boat_New_Orleans.jpg
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It is larger. Looks like they have a civvie on board, but they seem to be guarding him rather than rescueing him.
I wonder why it's called a fan boat.
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JOANK, I don't think we see the big fan on the back of it. Here's a better picture and description:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airboat
A few years ago while on a trip we rode back into the swamps of some lake (suffice to say my memory is so poor I can't remember the state!) on an airboat. I can see it was necessary in the swamps; they were rather frightening places to be unless you had a great deal of faith in your captain. This one took us to a place where he called the alligators by name and he hung meat from a hook rigged outward from the boat and they came up and grabbed it. I have pictures but too much action - I couldn't get it good.
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Kathy and Ahmad, his brother, were watching TV and the horrifying messages coming from the city. -
"Officials were concerned about the spread of E.coli, the risk of typhoid fever, cholera, dysentery. Unsanitary conditions would threaten the health of anyone still in the area."
'There were roving gangs of armed men....it was the Wild West out there."
Yes, JOANP, those men look like National Guard. Who else? Do you think security men would have a fan boat?
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I remember watching News helicopters flying over people that were stranded on their roofs. These people were calling or reaching out for help as the copters flew over. I kept wondering why, if the news crews could get close enough to film, they weren't rescuing those that were stranded--and why our government was not sending help. It was taking too long!!! I felt angry, frustrated and very, very helpless. I can only imagine how those that were stranded felt.
Sally
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CATCHING UP WITH A FEW FOLKS:
SHEILA AND MIPPY: - both of you posted that you were using a KINDLE for the first time in reading this book. We want to know your thoughts, you opinion about the gadget - or can we call it a gadget - it's certainly not a book!
PATH AND PEDLIN, both of you have kindles I think. Are you reading this book from them? Are you both back from New York City now?
KIDSAL, we haven't heard from you lately, are you thinking of a Kindle? I think the price has come down drastically and why is that? Does the industry realize the sale of the books are more profitable than the gadget? Reminds me of the hardware (the computer) and the software (the programs).
Thanks, SALLY, for your comments! We all wish we knew why things did not go smoothly in the rescue efforts. Many reasons, such as no practice for such a huge disaster, but there should have been more discipline, more organization, don't you agree.
Who was in total charge of the rescue effort? FEMA? Shouldn't there be one man to hold accountable rather than an organization?
We are approaching the last segment of the book, the most exciting of all. DO STOP IN AND GIVE US YOUR OPIINIONS!
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I love my Kindle, which was a gift in June. It's a reading devise not a computer, but in some ways it's exactly like a mini-hand-held computer. You can easily search for books by author and then order books and receive them in a minute! Now I never run out of new fiction to read. In previous summers I re-read a lot more old books.
However, big however, I don't use it for non-fiction, except for Zeitoun, which was an experiment. Not a success. It's too difficult to page back and find an earlier passage.
I've been noting and bookmarking, but it does not work well. Does anyone else with a Kindle have better success with bookmarks?
An ecological note: Think of all the trees we save when we refrain from buying paper books.
To comment on our reading: Have we gotten to the place where he's in captivity? I hope this is not a spoiler. That section was so scary for me to read I could not read it at bed time without nightmares. I'm catching up reading after lunch, not in the evening.
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Mippy, according to the schedule, through tomorrow we stay on part two, which ends when armed men start to break into the house. I could hardly stand to stop there. I'm planning on reading the next section tomorrow, and I guess you're telling me I should go sit outside in the bright sunshine to do it. ;)
Fanboats are new to me; they're kind of interesting. Once I read the Wikipedia article and knew how they work, I could see the big fan on JoanP's picture. It's turning, so practically invisible. The propeller isn't underwater at all; they are really airplanes with no lift, skimming along the water's surface.
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I'm thinking of buying a kindle, but I'm confused. They seem to sell two types. The cheaper one uses Wifi. Is that the one you all have? How do I know if I have Wifi in my house?
Then there's a more expensive one with extra software? Is that for people who don't have Wifi? How do I know which I need?
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The following has nothing to do with our book, so do skip if of no interest:
Joan ~ You know if you have WiFi in your home if you've installed a wireless router. That's what I did so that I can access the internet from my desktop computer, although the signal from Comcast comes into the house upstairs at my husband's desk. I'd guess if you live alone, you do not have or do not need Wifi.
Here's the wikipedia explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiFi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WiFi)
Therefore, a Kindle using WiFi would not work for you, which is apparently why Amazon developed the more expensive Kindle, which can access the same signal as cell phones.
My Kindle was a gift, so I have no idea what it cost, but my kids knew we had WiFi so that I could use that kind. Is this any help?
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ELLA, I just received my Kindle-3. It is the lower cost one, with WiFi. I bought it because I want to give my Kindle-2 to my daughter. I played with it for several hours, yesterday, but was unable to make it work. I have a phone number for Amazon Kindle support, so I spent an hour, or so with them. Seems I must log on to the modem in my home, for my phone service. They asked for my password, and I do not remember what it is. So, I am still not connected.
Tomorrow, I plan to call AT &T to get my password. Then I will call Amazon/Kindle support again, and have them walk me throough it. It does offer me easy access to both written script, or verbal script. It also offers 5, or 6 sizes of font. It also weighs a lot less than the first two Kindles I purchased.
I do not remember why I chose not to order the more expensive one. For some reason I learned that I didn't need the seond feature.
Sheila
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Question 5: Do you have a friend like Cathy’s friend Yuko:” I’m your sister. You’re my sister. You’re all I have.”
I have a twin sister. That's as good as it gets.
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About the Kindle, not the book, as I'm reading a print copy of that.
I bought the less expensive kindle because I have wifi at home, as do my library and area coffeeshops. Actually, how often do you need to download anything. For most Kindle use you do not need the wireless or the G3software.
There is a learning curve for doing things other than just reading. Mainly for inserting bookmarks and then finding where they are. I bought (it actually was free) Plutarch's Lives and am now flipping through it marking the different "biographies" as there is no table of contents in this book.
As for moving around in non-fiction books, you can do key word and phrase searches. Amazon has customer forums where you can ask questions of other kindle users. A useful site.
Ella, I'm still in new york -- until next Monday.
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Question 5: I have no sisters, but have two very close friends from different parts of my life. The saying goes, "People come into your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime". The first lady came into my life as we were raising our children. Although we both moved out of the neighborhood, the friendship lines remain and I could call her or visit her for any reason.
I met my second friend when she came to work in the same place I was, back in 1988. We stayed at the same place together, eventually becoming office-mates, until 2005 when I retired.
I watched her get married, have children, and now deal with the "empty nest".
She watched me raise my children, get divorced, get remarried, lose my second husband to lung cancer, find another partner and finally retire. We still meet once a month, with three other retirees, to discuss books. Like my first friend, I could ask her anything, just like she could ask me.
Nancy
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PatH: you got that right!
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:o
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/zeitoun/zeitouncvr.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 PART I
Sept. 9 - 16 PART II
Sept. 17- 23 PART III
Sept. 24 - 30 PART IV - V
Related links::
Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak (http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/);
About David Eggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers); the town of Arwad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad);
FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION
1. Kathy’s support group in anxious times were her best friend, Yuko, and her husband’s family overseas. Who would you expect to be your support group if you were in Kathy’s shoes?
2. “Syria is so much safer,” they said. You need to move back here.” Did the media overstate the chaos of New Orleans? Was it correct for Mayor Nagin to assert to the world that New Orleans had become an “animalistic state.”
3. Six days after hearing Zeitoun’s voice Kathy feared the worst and, yet, she felt he was "indestructible.” Can you understand this confusion?
4. If you had been Cathy, what would you have done? Would you have tried to go back to New Orleans? Should there have been more resources available to her?
5. The President had flown over the area and had addressed the nation comparing the hurricane to 9/11. What actions should a President take after an internal disaster that has caused such destruction and loss of life.
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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JoanK is absolutely right about boats. If you feel it, there is something about them that is very powerful. Although I’m an inept seaman, I do feel it. I totally understand why Zeitoun bought the canoe to begin with, and how he felt paddling around in it.
So here he is, in a complete no-man’s-land, paddling around in the eerie silence, It’s really surreal—he can see the upper stories of everything he knows. He’s the captain of his vessel, small though it is, back to his seafaring days.
I bet that most people, no matter how happy their life, see the appeal of a stretch of being elsewhere, out of all their normal concerns, and I think that happened here. Zeitoun was happy and fulfilled in his normal life, but the chance to be in this isolated capsule for a while must have been pretty attractive.
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PEDLIN, I have a few questions about my Kindle-3. I am hoping that you can answer them for me.
1. Can I use my Kindle away from my home?
2. Can I use it, without being hooked up to my WiFi?
3. What must I do, to connect it to my modem?
Thanks much. I am getting very frustrated.
Sheila
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Well, another day, another section, and another cliffhanger. It's getting harder and harder not to read ahead.
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I admit I read ahead. It's a remarkable book!
Sheila ~ Your Kindle can be used to read books anywhere. You only use the WiFi to get new books loaded on your Kindle, or to off-load content into the archives.
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Mippy, I may cave before long too.
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Sheila, Mippy is correct. You can use your Kindle anywhere. And you don'y have to connect it to any modem.
Today is the 17th? We're starting Sec. III? I'm finally caught up with the reading, and a bit beyond, but for now we're dealing with Kathy in Phoenix. What a nightmare for her. She has not heard from her husband for how many days? His relatives are calling her at all hours, telling her what she should do -- go to New Orleans, look fir him. She wants to be brave for the sake of the kids, but wow, it's so hard.
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Wow is right! What would you have done if you were Cathy? What would you have thought? It makes me realize -- there must be people like Cathy after every disaster -- waiting, not knowing whether their loved ones are alive or dead.
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Kathy's anguish is almost unthinkable. I've occasionally been is that sort of suspense for a few hours, with the tense, nervous restlessness, the desire to do something more every 10 minutes to try to find out what's happening, etc. It's dreadful to think of the suspense lasting for days.
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I can't imagine what Kathy went through either. In a number of ways, I think her situation was worse than Zeitoun's. Not only was she trying to contend with the idea that her husband might be dead, she had to put on a brave face for the kids, persuading them that their father was alive - and well, saving people in New Orleans. And then, how about the in-laws, contacting her from around the world, insisting on news of their brother. Didn't I read that they were telling her to go into New Orleans and find him?
Do any of the post-New Orleans drama articles or interviews talk of Kathy as a hero?
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Didn't I read that they were telling her to go into New Orleans and find him?
Yes, they repeatedly told her that it was her duty to go back to New Orleans. What a crazy idea! Possibly the only remaining parent of four young children, and a vulnerable woman, should go back to a city that's full of rape and murder and looting, with streets awash with raw sewage and floating dead bodies. And what could she hope to do there? She wouldn't be able to get around, and it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.
It's crazy, but it must have added to her frantic feeling and sense of guilt.
Zeitoun's family is very close and loving, and they were talking from love and solidarity, but perhaps this was as hard on Kathy as her own family's callousness.
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My library copy is due as soon as I get home, and can't be renewed beause someone else has a hold on it -- that's good. So I've gone ahead and just about finished it. Have also read some media articles. One written this past Sunday mentioned that Zeitoun is required reading this year for Tulane University freshmen. Good. Another article said it ought to be required high school reading, much like To Kill a Mockingbird is required. I was happy to note that it is 14th on the NYT non-fiction paperback best-seller list.
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Pedln, I hate to say that anything "ought to be required", but I'm pretty close to it here. It brings up all sorts of important issues in a calm, low-key sort of way. I finally cracked and finished the book, so I know that we'll have a lot more to say about this in the next section.
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Regarding required reading, I have doubts if this is a good choice for high school. Let's talk more about this when we are near the end of the month. Even if you haven't finished the book, it is becoming obvious that Zeitoun is going to encounter some difficulties.
In edit: just re-read above, and noted it was required in college, which is different!
As I posted earlier, some scenes in the next section gave me nightmares. I'm not sure if kids younger than 16 ought to read material like this. Of course, I'm thinking of the old days before Internet, since now many kids do see lots of unpleasant and violent stuff, especially in action games. The question is whether non-fiction like this book and the fiction of games can be distinguished by young minds.
Shall we take up any of this later? or is it too off-subject, JoanK and Ella?
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Mippy: "The question is whether non-fiction like this book and the fiction of games can be distinguished by young minds."
Of course it's not off-subject. The hallmark of a good book (and a good book discussion) is that it gets you thinking about things that wouldn't have occurred to you otherwise.
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I have my book so I will be backtracking a bit as I give my first impressions.
My overwhelming thoughts at this stage are.
Zeitoun was far too attached to his assets.
He was a workoholic and expected his staff to work weekends. Paying staff on a Sunday if they have worked Mon - Fri is an offence here. You have to have the money in their bank on Friday morning so you do your payroll Thursday if the staff don't turn up on Friday they get one day deducted from the next weeks wages. (I know this as I helped my son with his new business for 7 years) Did he hire immigrants because he could pay them less money than American born workers. Also it amazed me that it seemed that the workers were not skilled tradesmen. Zeitoun was not. My son who is in the same business as Zeitoun was only hires people who have had at least 5 years training with a company and then he trains them himself as he uses a unique product which produces a surface as smooth as a babys bottom as he says. My son is also a contract consultant for a large paint company and is called in to decide whether there is a product failure or bad workmanship when there is a dispute. (This is because he learned paint chemistry and reactions during his 4 year apprenticeship. He had to go to college at night and on block courses of three weeks each year to learn this technical part of the trade) You can see I am looking at Zeitouns business from the perspective of an insider in the building industry. You see I was also a builders representative for quite a few years and had to know about everything to do with the construction business.
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How do I make my post longer? The page dances after I type a couple of paragraphs. I have lots to comment on and could not fit all I wanted to say initially in one post. You don't have to comment on my posts as it will put the discussion backwards and anyhow its probably only me who is looking at the business side of Zeitouns life because of my life experiences.! LOL
Carolyn
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CAROLYN: that is a very useful perspective to have. I did think, reading the book, that Zeitoun sounded too good to be true. Tell us more.
In the US, it is common for workers to receive their wages a week after they do the work. But not to make them come in Saturday to get the money.
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Hello Carolyn! It's good that you now have the book and are ready to jump into the conversation! My sister has been visiting from New York and it was impossible to carve out any time to come in to read the thought-provoking posts here - though I tried, from early in the morning to late at night! ;)
Perhaps the jumping around when you try to post is because the compatability button needs to be pushed. That helped me when mine jumped.
If you look up at the top of the page to the right of the browser window, the second button that looks like a torn page is what you need to push so that it turns blue. See if that helps.
I remember thinking when that worker came to Kathy for his pay early - he was the smart one! Do you think the others ever got paid for that week before the storm? I don't. I've just paged through the book looking for the reason why Zeitoun didn't usually pay his work before Monday...(can't find the answer.) I suspect it was because he thought they'd spend it all on the weekend...am I right? Anyway, he was smart one to ask...and Kathy decided to make an exception in his case.
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Mippy, I'm not sure about making Zeitoun required reading for high schoolers - BUT I'm going to admit right off that I have only finished reading Part III and see none of the violence that you speak of. Yes, I do see the armed looters and reports of rape and other "animalistic" happenings in the Superdome - but Zeitoun seems to be avoiding these areas. I agree with those who posted that the danger exists that Z. will be taken in custody as one of those looters - as he freely moves in and out of the abandoned houses, feeding dogs, etc.
Several weeks ago the Parade Magazine in the Sunday paper ran a list of the books College Freshmen Should be reading - these were tops on that list -
"Many colleges now assign all incoming freshman one book to read before classes begin. While conservative scholars complain that the schools’ choices are insufficiently rigorous, administrators say they’re meant to serve as ice-breakers, not course material. These five nonfiction titles are popular among colleges this fall."
Enrique’s Journey, Sonia Nazario.
The Soloist, Steve Lopez
Zeitoun, Dave Eggers
This I Believe, Jay Allison and Dan Gediman, eds.
The Omnivore’s Dilemma, Michael Pollan
What Should College Freshmen Be Reading (http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95555)
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Kathy's support group - definitely NOT her own family in Baton Rouge! Zeitoun's relatives abroad with their insistance that she DO something seemed to upset her more than support her. Yuko seemed the best at calming her. But the scenes on television had to upset her more than even Yuko could calm her. At least the kids are in school now - and Yuko will be there for them if/when she decides she has to get back to N.O to find her husband. What would you have done? I don't think I'd have tried to get back just yet. The whole thing sees futile...she believes Zeitoun has drowned or been shot. I suppose I'd have stayed with the kids.
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Carolyn, kiwilady, it's great to have the perspective of someone who knows about Zeitoun's trade. Payment of wages is not so regulated here; I'm guessing that when you get paid is up to individual arrangements. But the book did say that Zeitoun paid good wages and always paid on time. Unfortunately, that's not always true, A scandal in my area (Washington, DC suburbs) is contractors who pick up casual labor, then don't pay them after the work's done. They mostly get away with it because some of the workers are here illegally, and many of the rest aren't comfortable enough with our legal system to risk suing for their rights. But how contemptible can you get? That's stealing, plain and simple. I hope they all have beards, because I don't see how they can look themselves in the face in a mirror to shave.
I don't seem to have the compatibility button (I have a Mac) but I also don't have the page dancing problem, so I guess it doesn't matter.
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More comment. I have no problem with the head scarf. Many women in my community wear the Hajib. I do have a problem with the Burkha which is very uncommon here. Have only seen it twice. A devout Muslim woman would not be comfortable without her Hajib even amongst her non Muslim family. I don't think she should have had to remove it for the sake of her family.
I should point out here my SIL is Muslim. My daughter has kept her own Christian religion which is allowed. If a Muslim man marries a Christian woman she may keep her own religion. The husband being classed as the head of the house covers the non Muslim woman spiritually. However the opposite is not allowed. A man must convert or a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry him. My SIL however is very modern and would not expect his wife to wear a headscarf except if she went to the Mosque with him. She does not generally do this.
Carolyn
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More comment. I am appalled at your military. Having had a disaster here recently we had no armed army personnel in the disaster zone. They were all unarmed. In fact I am appalled at how the whole situation was handled overall. I hope I don't offend anyone but everything I am hearing on this audio book is totally alien to our police and army culture. (We are in Afghanistan and doing relief work in Iraq) I wonder if its because we do so much peacekeeping and relief work with our army that the culture is different. We also have stringent gun laws. No gun culture.
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In the circumstances I think Zeitoun should have left. If he knew the problems his nationality presented in the US he should have gone.
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Usually I concentrate on characters in a book but this time I am obsessed over the awful events and what happens to Zeitoun rather than the depths of the characters.
Carolyn
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I am becoming more and more appalled the more I read (no commentingon detail as yet.) This is one of the most upsetting real life stories I have ever read.
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Although I think Zeitoun was wrong to stay in New Orleans my sympathy goes out to him wholeheartedly.
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I could not leave this book to one side. Its now finished and I will wait for your comments now and then add my own as we go.
I had quite a few tears in my eyes before the book finished.
Carolyn
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Yes, kiwilady, it gets pretty intense, doesn't it? At the moment, we're talking about the section thatdescribes Kathy and the children staying with Yuko, up through the point where she gets the phone call from the missionary saying he has seen Zeitoun, so anything up to there is fair game.
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Carolyn, were you able to find the little blue Compatability button up on the top right of the page next to the browser line? I'm asking only because I see you are posting one sentence per post and suspect that you are unable to post more than that in the reply box.
Since I've only read up to the point PatH mentions...and feel Kathy's relief that her husband has been seen alive in New Orleans, I'm feeling the same relief at this point. I guess I knew that Zeitoun had survived because of all the recent post-Katrina interviews...
What do we know of the New Orleans police in the aftermath of the storm? Did they survive? Certainly they were rendered ineffective. I haven't read anything of police brutality towards their New Orleans neighbors...did I miss something? I do know that the people camping out in the Superdome were under extreme stress due to the conditions there. I hope that plans have been improved for when there is another emergency. It seems a lot of people ignored the call for evacuation. Perhaps they had no way to leave? Are there now plans in place to help them evacuate if another hurricane hits?
I remember being relieved when the National Guard was called in to help those left behind - and to establish order in the places where violence and looting began to take place among the desperate.
Zeitoun's relatives wanted Kathy to come to Syria - "so much safer there." Did they mean safer because of the levees, the chance of future flooding, or because New Orleans was situated in a path for future hurricanes? Or did they mean as a temporary shelter because the entire area around New Orleans was crowded with refugees?
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JOANP: we'll see more about the police as the book goes on.
CAROLYN: in the interviews with Zeitoun, he was asked how his experiences affect his views of Americans. He said that if he hated Americans, he would be exactly the same as those Americans who think that all Muslems are terrorists.
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How many hhave stopped like JoanP, and how many couldn't stop and have read on? I'm thinking maybe we should read another chunk now.
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What was terrible was the rumours that there were attacks and rapes in the Superdome and these rumours turned out to be unfounded. There could have been terrible consequences to these rumours with so many armed men in charge of the situation.
It seems those in charge of law and order had been hyped up with their briefings and told to expect the worse behaviour so they had a predjudiced reaction to everything that happened and everyone they met.
Carolyn
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I think you're absolutely right.
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PEDLIN and MIPPY, thank you for your answers, to my questions about my Kindle/3. I just spent 2 hours on the telephone with Kindle support. We tried a number of things, but nothing worked to connect me to it. The tech rep suggested that I call my ATT.NET tech, and find out if I need another type of router. I will do that, but not until tomorrow. I am tired of being on the telephone, today!
I agree with those of you who found our book upsetting. I find it very difficult to understand how our hero could have been treated so badly by military and the police. I feel deeply sadended.
Sheila
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Its very quiet in here and I wonder if like me the happenings in the book seem absolutely surreal and also horrifying at the same time. Perhaps its hard to write about it like it is for me. I feel so upset it is hard to put my feelings into words.
Carolyn
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JoanK, to answer your question -- I couldn't stop reading and must get the book finished to return to the library.
About Zeitoun's staying in NO -- I think in part it's just part of his personality. He'd never left for any of previous storm warnings, so why leave for this one. And of course, no one predicted how bad it was going to get, and the levees breaking was a surprise to all.
I thought he would be checking on all his rental properties, but the only three I hear about are the family home on Dart St., the house that Todd rents on Claibourne, and the office on Dublin. Actually , he only goes to Dart and Claibourne.
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Pedln, were the rental units underwater do you suppose? I think that once Zeitoun had boarded up and did what he could to protect those units, his whole reason for staying on in New Orleans was to help with the rescue mission - and when those numbers dwindled, he was feeding the dogs.
I've been thinking of the question in the heading - What actions should a President take after an internal disaster that has caused such destruction and loss of life?
Weren't you surprised how many people had stayed behind? Filling the Superdome to overcrowding? What could have been done to get them out of there? After a few days of the overcrowding, the mayor was going to reopen the city. It was the threat of hurricane Rita heading right at the city that caused him to change his mind. What would have happened to all these people if they were allowed back into their flooded homes?
I think the order to send in the Coast Guard and the National Guard to help with the rescue was a sound decision. Do you? But why so heavily armed? The Coast Guard seems to be under the command of the Department of Homeland Security. The paranoia...can we call it that...seems to be linked to 9/11. Had that event never happened, would the rescue process have been different?
Can't you see Kathy's reaction as she searches the Internet...The Israeli mercenaries who were called in to maintain order, working with a firm called "Instinctive Shooting International" must have been devastating. The phone call telling her that her husband was not dead, but in prison, must have been a huge relief!
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JoanP, I think some of your questions about security and protection will be answered in the end of the book. What keeps going through my mind in all of this is the President's statement, "You're doing a heck of a job, Brownie." Someone else took over? and that's when FEMA became part of Homeland Security?
My understanding is that things were bad even before Katrina. The book tells us of previous failures using the Superdome during emergencies, and I remember stories from people who used to live there talking about the rampant crime. Was it already a shattered city? Or just one that was poorly maintained?
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:o
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/zeitoun/zeitouncvr.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 PART I
Sept. 9 - 16 PART II
Sept. 17- 23 PART III
Sept. 22-25 Part IV, (September 6 --September 19) Zeitoun
Sept. 26-30 Part IV, (Sptember 19)-- end Cathy, followup
Related links::
Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak (http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/);
About David Eggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers); the town of Arwad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad);
FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION
1. What struck you the most about Cathy's experience trying to free Zeitoun?
2. What do you think would have happened if the Zeitouns hadn't known a lawyer and been able to afford to hire him?
3.Why do you think that Cathy showed more afteraffects than Zeitoun?
4. Did the interview with the man who arrested Zeitoun change your view on what had happened?
5. What is the main thing you will take away from having read this book?
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
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We weren't going to move on until the 24th, but I think we're ready to move on tomorrow. I suggest that first we discuss Zeitoun's experiences in prison, and then go on to Cathy's experiences trying to get him out. As follows:
Sept. 22-25 Part IV, (September 6 --September 19) Zeitoun
Sept. 26-30 Part IV, (Sptember 19) -- End Cathy, followup
New questions are in the heading.
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6. What was the thing that you felt the most.
Anger. That these men were treated so badly, that they had no rights, there was nobody they could call on.
And it painted a very scary picture -- could that happen to anyone? It did to Merlene Maten, lots of articles about her experience. Would our home cities react the same way in face of a national emergency. Does anything go? Does the end justify the means?
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I am glad that we are going to finish the book. I had already decided to do so. My thoughts so far: (1) I don't think Zeitoun stayed because he thought he could help people. He was concerned about his property at first and talked about feeling like he was on a adventure when he was in his canoe. It was while he was "adventuring" that he saw the need and then started helping. (2) He definitely should have left when mandatory evacuation was declared. He had a place to go, money to tide him over and a family who needed him with them. (3) It never seemed to occur to him or to Cathy that being Muslim put him at particular risk. This was after 9/11 and many people in the U.S had become paranoid about Muslims. Did they not encounter that attitude in N.O.??
Times of disaster bring out the best and the worst in people. Think of all the citizens of N.O. who were raping and pillageing their fellow citizens. Then there were other truly good people like Zeitoun who were trying to help. I am sure that there were many police and military who were doing their absolute best to help. However, the "rotten apples" got all the media attention. NO ONE was prepared for this type of disaster. I think the military needed to be called in to help rescue and maintain order, BUT they needed better leadership to know how to go about this. I don't blame them for taking Zeitoun in for questioning. They didn't know why he was breaking into homes that weren't his. However, they should have checked on his story and they had no right to treat him the way they did when he was brought in.
Now to finish the story and maybe change my mind about all of this.
Sally
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Let's say that if the whole thing were to happen again...the levee breached, homes and streets flooded...what do you think needs to be done?
For one thing....mandatory evacuation should be ordered, I think. Escape routes planned a head of time, buses ordered to take out those with no means.
Last night I saw a special on the dedication of the new athletic facility at McMain High School in New Orleans on ESPN. It was amazing how the kids have been doing in this school for the last five years. The place should have been condemned. No showers, indescribable toilets... What was of interest to me - the many, many teenagers that were interviewed and what they had to say about their experience in during and after Katrina. MOST of them stayed - did not evacuate and had nothing negative to say about those who came to their rescue. They were sincerely grateful.
Should the National Guard be called if it happens again? Of course! The Coast Guard? Of course! Who else does one call when help is needed. Consider the alternative if no one is there to help. Pedln asks "would our home cities react the same way in an emergency?" Call in the National Guard, the Coast Guard if on water? I think so. I know the National Guard would be called upon for help here in Arlington. Look at the work they did in Haiti in recovering the injured and trapped in the earthquake.
Admittedly, the young men doing the hard work were under great stress, exhausted and in great danger. They didn't seem to have much needed leadership...anyone to answer to. It reminds me of the torture of the captured 9/11 suspects in Guantanamo. It seems that there was no one in command there either.
These guys in New Orleans were young and scared - the looters were armed.
Five years later - can we find what plans are in place in the city of New Orleans in case there is another emergency? Most sources that I have read say there will be another such occurrence in the future.
Sally, we were posting at the same time - I agree with everything thing you said. Am eager to learn what plans are in place for future emergencies in New Orleans. I wonder if the Superdome is part of the plan... Wasn't it ironic that New Orleans went on to win the SuperBowl following the hurricane?
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It's hard for me to stop sputtering with indignation and say anything coherent. It's interesting to contrast the bad time of Zeitoun and Kathy. Kath was safe and physically comfortable and with her children, but she was frantic from not knowing what had happened to her husband, thinking he must be dead. Zeitoun was being physically abused and emotionally degraded, and didn't know what would happen to him, but at least he knew his family was safe.
Which was worse?
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I think Zeitouns situation was worse. He thought he could be shipped off to Guantanamo Bay. He thought he would never see his family again. He was being treated appallingly. Torture by proxy in my opinion. Kathy thought her husband was dead but she was not imprisoned and suffering physical deprivations as well as mental torture.
It would be very hard for me to trust anyone in authority ever again if I was Zeitoun. I don't think I would ever be the same person I was. Zeitoun must have suffered after effects. His wife did and I am sure he did too.
Being an avid animal lover as most of you know it was terribly hard for me to read about the fates of animals in this book.
Carolyn
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I have been ill and missed such good conversation about Zeitoun and his family; so happy to be back. CAROLYN, I agree that Zeitoun's situation was the worse than Kathy's - that prison situation was terrible; sleeping on the pavement, the prisoners "half mad with fatigue and confusion." What publicity did this get after it was all over? Have measures been put into effect to disallow this kind of situation or would it likely happen again in a disaster such as this?
JOANP, there was a mandatory evacuation, it's in the book I'm not sure just where, but so many things could have been done. All those school buses sitting in a lot could have been used to transport people out of the city and city buses?
Oh, dear, a thunderstorm, got to get off. More later.
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A lot of people who stayed did so because they had no way to get out of the city and no place to go. Both these problems would have to be solved to make things work better next time.
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Ella - Sorry you have been ill. I hope you are recovered now.
A person or family on minimum wage would barely have enough to pay basic expenses. They would have no money to get out. Some probably had no cars. No money for busfares etc. I thought that at the time of Katrina when there were some comments from unthinking people it was their own fault if they were caught in such bad circumstances.
Here the army would evacuate people and also there would be free buses and the Govt would pick up the tab if ever a mass evacuation was necessary. I think the whole problem was there was no coordination between the various agencies who had responsibility for disaster situations.
Our recent disaster was coordinated from the bunker under the Beehive (Our Parliamentary buildings) That is where Civil Defence operates from- there are also the Govt reps in the bunker as part of the disaster management. It is fortunate that we learned from Katrina and there were concerted efforts to improve our disaster responses. Maybe without this example we would not be as prepared as we are today. Not nice to think because of Katrina our disaster tactics worked well in our recent disaster.
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I just saw the new questions and must answer a couple now. I hate the thought that I am prejudiced against Muslims, but I have to admit I am suspicious. I know that's wrong and any new minority is always questioned, but somehow they stand out. Their mosques, their religion, their strict laws about women. Why should women have to wear particular clothing.
CAROLYN, I know you posted about your DIL. I understand tolerance, I do, and I think you said she does not have to wear a hajeb, is that right. Of course, New Zealand is not a Muslim country and, therefore, no government is restricting her rights or the rights of tourists. Did you notice that Andrea Mitchel and Hillary Clinton cover their hair when interviewing any Muslim? I resent it!
YEs, I agree with JOANP, that the National Guard and the Coast Guard should have been called in and there are two sides to this problem. Zeitoun should not have been in the city. The soldiers were suspicious of Zeitoun and his friends; they could have been looters. They had money on them. They were middle easterns and could not speak English very well.
But the soldiers were too quick to send them to a prison without a phone call, definitely.
Much in the news about Blackwater, good and bad I suppose. I'm going to look on the web for comments about this company. They were hired mercenaries in the Iraq war weren't they?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide
The company has a wide array of business divisions, subsidiaries, and spin-off corporations but the organization as a whole has aroused significant controversy.[4][5][6][7][8]
Based in North Carolina, Xe operates a tactical training facility (36°27'N 76°12'W? / ?36.45°N 76.2°W? / 36.45; -76.2) that the company claims is the world's largest, where it trains more than 40,000 people a year, mostly from U.S. and other military and police services. The training consists of military offensive and defensive operations, as well as smaller scale personal security.
Xe is currently the largest of the U.S. State Department's three private security contractors. Of the 987 contractors Xe provides, 744 are U.S. citizens.[9][10] At least 90% of the company's revenue comes from government contracts, of which two-thirds are no-bid contracts.[11] Xe provided security services in Iraq to the United States federal government, particularly the Central Intelligence Agency[1] on a contractual basis. They no longer have a license to operate in Iraq: the new Iraqi government made multiple attempts to expel them from their country,[12] and denied their application for an operating license in January 2009.[13] However, the company is still under contract with the State Department and some Xe personnel were working legally in Iraq at least until September 2009.[14]
In October 2007, the company, Blackwater USA, was renamed Blackwater Worldwide. It announced on February 13, 2009 that it would operate under the new name "Xe." In a memo sent to employees, President Gary Jackson wrote that the new name "reflects the change in company focus away from the business of providing private security." A spokesperson for the company stated that it feels the Blackwater name is too closely associated with the company's work in the occupation of Iraq.[15] Spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell said there was no meaning in the new name, which the company took over a year to arrive at in an internal search.
Blackwater was also hired during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina by the United States Department of Homeland Security, as well as by private clients, including communications, petrochemical and insurance companies.[19] Overall, the company has received over $1 billion USD in U.S. government contracts.
A very suspicious company. Are they needed this day and age, who knows?
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Blackwater is indeed a suspect company! What gets me is the billions of dollars disappeared in Iraq that cannot be accounted for and also the billions paid to contractors. I read empty trucks were travelling in Iraq from one place to another and charging for this!!!!!!! I absolutely abhor taxpayers from any nation being ripped off and I feel there was a lot of this going on.
There is a lot of information about Blackwater available on the net. Why WERE they in NO?
Ella there are many fundamentalist Christians too with very strict dress codes and judgemental attitudes just as there are Muslims. There are also many millions of Muslims who are moderates just like there are millions of moderate Christians.
Sometimes when I see young girls walking round in the street in clothing we would consider suitable for beachwear I wonder if we have gone too far the other way.
Carolyn
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I know what you mean about the way some girls dress - especially in summer! I would think it is especially tough on the boys whose hormones are racing in the early teen years. (says this mother of four boys.) I'm wondering whether the Zeitoun girls will be wearing the hijab to school. After A. Zeitoun's experience, do you imagine the Zeitoun's are less likely to draw attention to themselves. I see in the photo that Kathy still wears hers, but not sure about the girls......
(http://blog.nola.com/books_impact/2009/07/large_Zeitounfamily.JPG)
Zeitoun's experience was heart-wrenching, he was treated in an inhuman way...no one will argue with that. As you say - There are also many millions of Muslims who are moderates just like there are millions of moderate Christians.
Unfortunately 9/11 took such a toll on this country, changed so many inclusive attitudes that I fear there will always be suspicion and FEAR (bordering on paranoia) that the same thing can happen again.
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Reading about emergency disaster measures adopted in your country, Carolyn, I am really interested in hearing about what New Orleans has done to evacuate those without transportation. I did find this report - it begins with the evacuation plan that was in place before the hurricane/levee break - and then the FEMA, Department of Homeland Security plan later adopted. I haven't had a chance to look at it closely yet - a quick scan left me unconvinced of its effectiveness when another disaster requiring evacuation arises -
EVACUATION PLANNING - NEW ORLEANS (http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=hurricane_katrina_tmln&katrina_emergency_preparedness/response_plans=katrina_evacuationPlanning)
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Swell, the company is suspect, under investigation -- let's just change its name.
Sometimes I think I'm so naive, working with a World War II mentality, idealism, whatever. But I find the thought of our country needing mercenaries to be appalling. Those guys aren't out there for love of country. The bottom line is money and profit.
It seems to me the big problem was that there was no structure in the chain of command. Who was reporting to whom? Who was issuing the orders? Who had the overall picture?
Yes, the National Guard should have been called in. Isn't that part of their purpose?
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PEDLIN, me, too! A WWII mentality, idealism. That's us, right or wrong, and one wonders what in the world we are doing interfering in other countries, getting our soldiers killed. First Vietnam - they didn't attack us. Now Iraq, Afghanistan.
Does anyone understand this? Sure, 9/11, JOANP, changed us all. But the reason for a 9-year war? Couldn't we have stopped when we got Saddam Hussein. Do we still feel threatened?
And if 9/11 had NOT happened, would our attitude towards Muslims (I know there are moderates) be different. Of course. I never knew much about them until then. Not much about their religion, their culture, but I think there are 7 million Muslim-Americans in the USA. Quietly I presume, since not many are speaking up for themselves. They need an NAACP.
Certainly Zeitoun knew about this attitude towards Muslims; I'm sure Cathy did. I think somewhere the book tells us that Zeitoun was aware of being a Middle Easterner and prejudice in that direction. So why did he take a chance and stay in the city; particularly when he had seen soldiers in the boats. I have to go back to the book to see just when that occurred.
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Thanks for the picture, JOANP! I think one of the daughters is wearing a hajeb isn't she? The one sitting right by Kathy?
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Here is Zeitoun telling the story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOgLqUWnn5k
It's distracting that the interview is done in a restaurant.
At the end he talks about being a Muslim in America, but it is hard to understand with that noise. I must listen again to it.
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I'm afraid the noise defeated me.
On The side, that web site showed this: nothing to do with Zeitoun, but interesting. The author, receiving a TED award.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QbzvT6vko&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3QbzvT6vko&feature=related)
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I think because Zeitoun fitted into his community so well and was accepted by so many he did not think he was in any danger at all. He also hated to think of all he had worked for being lost completely when maybe he could restrict the inevitable damage.
A few years ago when Syria was very much treated with suspicion and hostility one of our TV reporters did one of our "Intrepid Journeys". She travelled through Syria with a documentary crew. She was treated with nothing but kindness and felt very safe the whole time she was there. She met many ordinary Syrians including many Muslim women. She was always invited into homes and fed. The Syrians have a rich culture and wonderful food.
About Iraq. I do not believe in removing Leaders of Nations. If people really want change they will revolt and change it themselves. It never works out when other nations interfere. And so it has not. Things are worse. The 9/11 bombers were mostly Saudis and no Iraqis were involved. Surely if this interference was related to 9/11 should it not have been Saudi Arabia which was invaded? The collateral damage was terrible in Iraq. You can understand why ordinary people then turned hostile.
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ELLA'S BACK. HOORAH!!!
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Before Katrina, Zeitoun was definitely aware of the danger he was in as a Muslim. There is a comment about how careful he was to avoid anything that might get him stopped, for a traffic offense for instance, because of the way he might be perceived. Black people have the same problem; they are more likely to be stopped, and more likely to get ticketed than whites.
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That is sad Pat. I fear its the same here in some instances. Not so much with Muslims but definately with those whose skin is coloured. If you are a native NZer here you are more likely to be imprisoned than a white person up on the same offence. It might be because most white people can afford a better lawyer. They are also generally better educated.
Carolyn
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Yes, isn't it sad, CAROLYN AND PAT! I'm sure most of us feel this way but I think America has improved slightly since the Civil Rights Act, do you agree?
The Muslims are the new black, they need a NAACP. Perhaps they have such an organization, one that will fight for their rights? One that is respected.
Isn't it prophesized that sometime in the near future, whites will be in the minority? A new chapter in history will be written; many of us will not be here to be involved, but should be interesting to speculate. History is on their side for one thing, does that matter? I suppose if we go back to ancient history, all people were arabic or african, weren't they?
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Great interview, Ella! My, isn't Zeitoun a nice looking man...such soft gentle eyes. He didn't get all emotional as he spoke of his treatment - quite objective, wasn't he?
I'd been wondering when Katrina had turned into part of the war on terror resulting from 9-11. Even though we were reading about Zeitoun's Syrian background and Kathy's conversion to Islam, I really wasn't expecting that things would spiral downward into Zeitoun taken in as a member of al Quaida - as a member of the Taliban. Thought he was arrested being arrested as a looter... I guess he did too.
Part IV clears up such questions. Even the Coast Guard sent "tactical units formed as part of the war on terror." Some of the National Guard troops were young men "straight from Afghanistan and Iraq." Let's not forget their mind-set - where they were coming from.
I'm not so sure Zeitoun's treatment was discrimination against his race.
Kathy later read a document on the web that shed more light on the soldiers' state of mind... a 21 page document issued in 2003 by the Dept. of Homeland Security to Marines, security firms, CIA - warning of possible terrorist exploitation of a high category hurricane...spoke of hostage situations, attacks on shelters , atttacks on evacuation routes. The document states this goal - "reduce the threat by terrorists, increase vigilance, watch unattended vehicles, splinter terrorist cells, religious extremists..."
Zeitoun and Nasser "fit the profile" of what they were looking for.
Of course this does not excuse the treatment they received...even if they WERE the Taliban.
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It's time to read on to the end of the book, if you haven't already. I've put some new questions in the heading.
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OOOPS -- Senior moment. I misread the date, and thought it was the 26th. Discuss anything you want.
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Did anyone else find it suspicious that all the early meals Zeitoun got contained pork? I wondered if the guards were deliberately picking them out for him just to be mean.
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Yes, PAH, I did and the jailers with not our Afghan soldiers were they? There is a reason for all this.
But goodness, we just have a few days left to complete the discussion don't we? It's difficult to read these stories of the prisoners, so innocent, and so mistreated. The 73-year old who went to her car and back to the hotel being arrested for looting and on and on. She slept on the concrete also, can you imagine. Now, that is not defensible in any way.
Zeitoun questions everything he had done, everything he had hoped for, and thought the country was "broken....was fallible, mistakes were being made, innocents suspected, imprisoned." He's in pain, depressed, nothing is working. Poor fellow. I wonder how he will get over this experience and become hopeful again about the country, the city, the police.
I think most of us, after it was all over and we were well again, would want some sort of retaliation, such as letters to our local paper, interviews to the press; however we could get it out what had happened to us and why. In order to make sure it doesn't happen again.
CAROLYN, your opinion is valued, you have an outside view of America that it is hard for us to grasp. What does the world think about the country and are we exploited on TV for everything bad that happens here, or do sometimes they approve of something.
As long as there is an Israel and America is its friend, I think the Muslims will either dislike us or hate us and try to destroy us. Just an opinion, of course. That is why I am suspicious and I don't like it all! They are united in this no matter where they live.
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Firstly having been a victim of American displeasure and being sent to Coventry for three decades by the American Administrations because of our nuclear free policy we did not like America much for those decades. However Bill Clinton changed all that. Then came Mr Bush. We felt justified in helping in Afghanistan because they were ruled by a regime which were allied to Al Quaeda but we were not involved in Operation Shock and Awe as it was not sanctioned by the UN and therefore was a unilateral decision by Blair and Bush. We did go in on humanitarian grounds after the bombing. Most of us were horrified at the collateral damage in Iraq. We began to feel antagonistic towards the American administration. We felt there was extreme arrogance and dreadful ignorance about Middle Eastern affairs. Instead of liberation things got worse. Anyone who knew anything about Iraq would have known that this would happen. There would be extreme unrest between the Shia and the secular state run by the Sunnis. Shia want Islamic rule. Iraq will never be at peace now. Its in a worse state than it was as far as infrastructure etc goes and with the Shia being the majority they are imposing their will on the people by terrifying them so much the women doctors etc are scared to go to work.
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Continuing my post. We still have our elite troops and some ordinary soldiers in Afghanistan I am not sure if we are still working in Iraq.
Then we got Obama. Most of us love Obama no matter which side of the fence we sit politically. We were so happy for him when he was elected and we wanted the American people to have some sort of Universal Healthcare. Its not perfect but at least the uninsured would have not been bankrupted because they could not afford care. We were happy that he is a good Statesman like Bill Clinton. America can no longer afford to stand alone on the world stage. China is now the richest nation and holds everyone in their financial grip. America needs to cultivate good will and I think Obama is doing this. I think generally now we have a much better attitude towards the US than we did. We don't want to be told what to do politically and I think large nations whoever they are need to respect the tiny countries sovereignty. That goes for all the super powers.
Americans do have to realise that their President can affect the lives of others in small nations by foreign policy therefore we take an intense interest in your Politics as we do with China and Russia. Therefore we do often participate in political forums which are discussion US politics.
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We have more in common with the US in so many areas than we do with China and Russia. I resent the kow towing to China. They have abyssmal human rights records. They are not a true Communist state but more a totalitarian regime which is the opposite to the pure Communism. They also compete unfairly as their currency is grossly undervalued and they refuse to adjust this. That gets me really mad.
I hope that our relations with the US will continue as they are now. Hillary Clinton is visiting soon. It makes such a difference to be considered in foreign policy and not ignored because we are so tiny therefore not worth visiting.
Carolyn
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It makes such a difference to be considered in foreign policy and not ignored because we are so tiny therefore not worth visiting.
Carolyn, you make an excellent point there, and one that many of us here might be unaware of. I feel comfortable with Obama in charge of our country’s foreign policy, partly because of the regard those in other countries have for him.
Did you know that the French Senate voted 246 tp 1 to ban the full veils worn by Muslim women. The actual name of the ban is Forbidding the Concealing of the Face in the Public Space.
“Under the new law, both the niqab, a facial scarf with a separate head covering, and the burqa would be outlawed in public spaces. According to estimates, roughly 2,000 women out of France's estimated Muslim population of up to 6 million wear such veils, the BBC reported. The law does not ban the hijab, a head scarf that leaves a woman's face uncovered.”
2. What do you think would have happened if the Zeitouns hadn't known a lawyer and been able to afford to hire him?
Zeitoun would have been in jail for several more months. One thing that surprised me was that Kathy did not try to contact any of the politicians representing their state. (Or if they did, I missed that.)
5. What is the main thing you will take away from having read this book?
A process for governing has to be in place, and due process in regard to individuals must be adheard to. The system in New Orleans was completely broken, but I wonder just how strong a process was present to begin with.
They’re two entirely different disasters, but the aftermath of 9/11 was handled so much better than that of Katrina. Structure and process were in place and were followed. Katrina was more like Haiti where 17% of the government was killed in the earthquake. Governments have to plan ahead.
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I think if we had a disaster in Auckland our resources would be really stretched. The army would definately have to be deployed as we have such a sprawling city. The civil defence headquarters for my part of the city is about three minutes drive from my house. I like to think they know our area well and would be prepared. A city has to be prepared to deal with the fact that the poor in their city will not have the resources to evacuate. Many of them live from week to week and its an extremely expensive country and city to live in. There must be a plan to commandeer public transport (buses etc) to evacuate those who cannot get themselves away. Our biggest threat is volcanic activity and tsunamis in Auckland. Auckland is surrounded by sea as we are a narrow isthmus. Our city has 49 extinct volcanos. The biggest of these is Rangitoto Island which last erupted 600 years ago.
After all my reading about NO there is only two solutions really either renew all the levees to cover all possibilities or the land that was flooded should never again be built upon. A situation like Katrina could happen again as our weather is so volatile now due to global warming. I know how much warmer it is where I live. 30 years ago we got frosts. Heavy frosts for one month of the year now it barely hits the ground and is gone when we get up.
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Thank you so much, CAROLYN. We're getting into politics here, rather than Hurricane Katrina and the Zeitoun family, but it is a opportunity to learn about America from someone in the outside world. I was interested by this observation you made, because it is something so many of us believe:
"We felt there was extreme arrogance and dreadful ignorance about Middle Eastern affairs. Instead of liberation things got worse. Anyone who knew anything about Iraq would have known that this would happen. There would be extreme unrest between the Shia and the secular state run by the Sunnis. Shia want Islamic rule. Iraq will never be at peace now. Its in a worse state than it was as far as infrastructure etc goes and with the Shia being the majority they are imposing their will on the people by terrifying them so much the women doctors etc are scared to go to work."
The American people, I feel, have been led into too many wars, too many young men killed, because of ignorance of a people's culture and their affairs, their tenacity.
But back to the book.
Some of this book is so unbelievable. Camp Greyhound where Zeitoun was incarcerated; a source of fascination by the poeple of New Orleans. Well, I should think so! It was built quickly by the prisoners from two institutions. I looked up the penitentiary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_State_Penitentiary - The Alcatrz of the South
"On August 31, 2008, New Orleans mayor Ray Nagin stated in a press conference that any New Orleans residents found looting during the evacuation of the city due to Hurricane Gustav would be arrested and immediately transported to Angola prison."
How horrible, what a threat - read about that prison!!! And stay out of New Orleans!
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JOAN - thanks very much for your invitation to join this discussion. Wish I'd known about it when it began. There is so much for all of us to consider about Zeitoun's behavior and the manner in which he set out to explore after the catastrophe. Why he was suspicious to officials?
Why did he have cash in his pockets, when so many folks carry little if any cash these days? Was his personal manner (or skin color or tone of voice) considered suspicious? If so, why. Perhaps because he did NOT have that well-known New Orleans style of speaking?
ELLA - it's good to read your very detailed comments about the Muslims in the USA. Surely, you (and others) should be suspicious if an event like what Zeitoun experienced happened in your area. I was in the metropolitan Washington DC area on the day of 9/11. I had many friends working at the Pentagon. Boy, did I go into "controlled panic mode" as my son (who was in another area of the USA on that day) stayed on our cell phones most of the day with each other.
The misunderstanding, suspicions and/or absolute lack of knowledge about Muslims in the USA affects folks in a range of ways. Some want to learn more about the faith and culture from which these folks come - Islam is NOT practiced the same world-wide, although that is generally NOT well known to non-Muslims.
Personal behavior - a sense of quietness (verbally and/or body movement), unwillingness to make direct eye contact while interacting with folks, the idea of a woman wearing a scarf on her head, when others do not, or behavior in any way noticeably different from one's own can always be a bit off-setting. Your comments n the above posts are important in that they outline many of the areas in which Muslims in the USA (and other Western countries, France included most recently) are NOT well understood. Or in some cases NOT understood at all.
CAROLYN - your comments about customs in your country are equally important as they lend an excellent opportunity to learn about issues, people and behavior by a range of folks outside the West. And through the years you have had an excellent opportunity to learn first-hand about Muslim culture as have I.
Some posters may recall that my husband is an Egyptian Muslim (currently in the USA on a leave of absence from his home university outside Cairo). And although I am a native Californian, a Christian and the mother of a Christian U.S. Army Chaplain (currently deployed in Iraq), I've spent a number of years focused professionally on the Middle East, Central Asia and the Muslim communities world-wide.
When JOAN invited me to participate in this discussion and offer some comments, I was happy to do so. Taken to the basics, Zeitoun is one Muslim; his own cultural and family background in his native country must be factored into his behavior. NOT ONLY the fact that he is a Muslim.
ELLA - back to some of your comments, which make perfect sense to me as I have encountered many folks in the USA and abroad who pose the same (or similar thoughts) about Islam and its believers, whether pertaining to religious, family, dress or the modesty encouraged for women, they are ALL important thoughts to share with others.
An example: I wonder how many Western women realize that there is an ENORMOUS sector of business WOMEN in Saudi Arabia - THE most conservative Islamic country in the world - yet many of these women, who are NOT permitted by Saudi law to hold a driver's license, are multi-millionaires (perhaps a few billionaires) and hold regular jobs. They just are NOT visible in public in the way that our female business executives are! They have enormous business powers, but again NOT IN PUBLIC, thus adhering to the custom that Muslimas (female Muslims) are NOT to be "viewed" publicly.
The idea of some of our female government representatives (Hilary Clinton comes readily to mind) wear headscarves when meeting with conservative MALE representatives should NOT be construed as "bending" to the males, but simply as a sign of courtesy AND recognition of the conservative female culture in the male representative's culture. It's simply polite to do so. I've worn head scarves worldwide when I was working for exactly the same reason. And I took off my shoes several times when I entered the Women's sector of an Islamic mosque.
Simply out of courtesy for the tradition!
Being respectful of others does NOT mean "giving in" or "bending" to customs that are not our own.
Perhaps as the discussion continues about this one book, some of the posters here might like to glance at the list of titles I posted earlier today in the SeniorLearn site where I inquired if there would be any discussions on various aspects of Islam and Muslims. Sure wish I had known about THIS discussion earlier, but it's a pleasure to have been invited to do so tonight.
And the insightful comments here remind of the classes I used to teach at my former home University in Maryland. After retirement, I continued many of those classes for the Egyptian Cultural Bureau in Washington DC and as seminars for other diplomatic sites in the area as their staff welcomed new colleagues to Washington who needed to know about their Muslim colleagues.
It's good to be back among posters with whom I've interacted for many years (in the former SN site as well as the new ones) and to share your enjoyment of continued learning of world issues.
Mahlia
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Hello Mahlia nice to see you!
Our latest news is that Al Quaeda have threatened to kidnap athletes from countries involved in the Commonwealth Games that are also fighting in Afghanistan. That is of course Australia and NZ along with a few others. Spectators also have been advised not to wear our national emblems at the games. Security around our team is huge. I wonder now if some of the athletes will not go.Some athletes from other countries have already pulled out due to the bad facilities in the games village and worry about security.
It is a bit worrying to say the least!
Carolyn
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CAROLYN - really good to catch up with you, too. I thought of you several times as I posted my previous comments and recalled the earlier days when your SIL was becoming more familiar to your family and my husband was making more trips to the USA. Before I posted my earlier comments, I read an email from my son in Iraq, who described a recent "encounter" between his soldiers and the locals in "a battle hot area of the country." But he clearly stipulated that NOT all the locals he has encountered are treacherous. In fact, he and several of his fellow Chaplains were able to donate food and join in some of the meals for their Iraqi civilian contractors as they broke their fasts in the evening during the recent celebration of the Holy Islamic month of Ramadan. I truly had to smile when my son commented that he daily appreciates having learned so much about the Middle Eastern and Central Asian cultures when he was growing up through my own interests and professional endeavors.
There has been news in the Western press about the threats of kidnapping athletes during sporting events AND it is a major worry for all concerned. I surely would not blame any teams which decided to withdraw for the safety of their athletes. Human life is just too precious! The vile condition of so many of the proposed residential sites for the Games was absolutely disgusting but, again, I would focus more on security. GOOD O for your security fellows as they extend substantial security to the athletes.
Mahlia
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Thanks, MAHLIA, for all your comments. Nice to see you posting here! Have you read the book?
Here is the Zeitoun Foundation site, listing all the awards the books has been granted. I notice there is one from an American Muslim Association.
http://www.zeitounfoundation.org/
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:o
The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
SEPTEMBER Book Club Online
Zeitoun ~ by David Eggers
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/zeitoun/zeitouncvr.jpg) |
" In Zeitoun, Dave Eggers expertly captures the Zeitoun family’s story of perseverance through forces of nature and man. This book is a testament to the city of New Orleans and the survivors of Hurricane Katrina who carry on and strive to rebuild. Zeitoun is narrative nonfiction at its storytelling best and Eggers valiantly provides writing worthy of the source material." Mike Sullivan About.com Book review
"It’s the stuff of great narrative nonfiction" Timothy Egan ~ New York Times Book Review |
SCHEDULE FOR DISCUSSION:
Sept l -8 PART I
Sept. 9 - 16 PART II
Sept. 17- 23 PART III
Sept. 22-25 Part IV, (September 6 --September 19) Zeitoun
Sept. 26-30 Part IV, (Sptember 19)-- end Cathy, followup
Related links::
Photographs - America's Greatest Heartbreak (http://www.katrinadestruction.com/images/v/hurricane/);
About David Eggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Eggers); the town of Arwad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arwad);
FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION
1. What struck you the most about Cathy's experience trying to free Zeitoun?
2. What do you think would have happened if the Zeitouns hadn't known a lawyer and been able to afford to hire him?
3.Why do you think that Cathy showed more afteraffects than Zeitoun?
4. Did the interview with the man who arrested Zeitoun change your view on what had happened?
5. What is the main thing you will take away from having read this book?
Discussion Leaders: Ella (egibbons28@columbus.rr.com) & JoanK (joankraft13@yahoo.com)
Sorry, there are two Muslim organizations listed on the Zeitoun Foundation site.
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HEY, MAHLIA, great to have you here. Your knowledge of Islam, experience in various countries, and thoughtful approach are appreciated by all of your friends here.
And thank you for reminding us that Zeitoun is one person, not all Muslims. For example, it's obvious in the book how differant his personality is from that of his beloved brother Ahmad.
One thing about his personality: it seems from the afterward that Cathy has more long term affects from their experiences than Zeitoun does. Cathy has physical problems and admits that she has trouble controlling her anger. Whereas Zeitoun always appears calm, and says he bears no resentment.
Some of this difference is the obvious differance in their personalities, but I wonder if some of it could also be cultural. Could it be hard for Zeitoun to show or admit how much his experiences had affected him because of the cultural norms on how a man should behave? Certainly, it was surprising to Cathy (and me) when Zeitoun's brother said it would be worse for his family knowing that he was in prison, than if they thought he was dead.
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...it seems from the afterward that Cathy has more long term affects from their experiences than Zeitoun does.
That's why I asked earlier which had the worse time. Zeitoun could certainly have internalized his anger, but if he had the same memory lapses as Kathy, his business would suffer, and I doubt he could hide it.
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What do you think is wrong with Kathy? Are we to understand that it is connected to those days of anxiety five years ago? Does stress cause the symptoms that Kathy is exhibiting now in 2010? Were you surprised that they went back to New Orleans after Zeitoun's experience?
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Yes it was stress. She was an American converted to Islam but all the same American born and bred. I think although she knew it was possible she never dreamt that her law abiding husband would be treated so harshly. It must have been hard for her knowing it was her countrymen who had treated her husband in this way. I think it was more Zeitouns imprisonment that affected her rather than the flood.
Yes I am surprised they went back to New Orleans. However I can understand in because all their friends were there and they were respected by their clients.
Carolyn
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CAROLYN - you've nailed it! The response of Zeitoun to folks he does not know (as in their not being friends of his family) is VERY common among folks from the Middle East. And although if one does not understand that Middle Eastern culture in general has it's "public side" (which is demonstrated outside of the family) AND its more personal, family/friends side, then it is hard to understand the differences. But among folks from that region it is common: quiet, a bit hesitant/shy - but polite generally - with folks who are not familiar. Yet with family and friends, often a louder tone of voice (in arguments and with one's laughter), and willingness to question/answer a topic for hours.
Over the years, I have met, talked with and interacted on a regular basis with American women who have married men from other countries AND often converted from their birth religion to that of their husbands. Although my own husband is an Egyptian Muslim, I remain a Christian. Yet I have known many female colleagues, some neighbors in Washington DC and other women whom I have met publicly, who were adamant about converting to their husband's faith. Some of the women took the time and effort to learn about their adopted religion, others did not. And it was the latter group who had the most difficult time adjusting.
I can appreciate the wife's struggle - physical health, shock at the circumstances the family found itself in, and concern, worry and fear about the future. These are HUMAN concerns, of course, but in her case, they're also coupled with the emotional trauma of her spouse's imprisonment and what life ahead would be like for her and their children. The "unknown" (especially when it's as severe as what the family experienced) can really wreck havoc in one's life.
Mahlia
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And yet when she was convinced that Zeitoun had drowned, or had been shot by the looters, she was so calm and ready to go to N.O., claim his body, bury him and get on with her life. I think it was her frustration dealing with the bureaucratic red tape (we really can't call it that) that got to her - before she learned of his harsh treatment from his captors..
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Perhaps her calmness was her own way of dealing with shock. The latter affects each one quite differently and can be felt at one level for some time, followed by a complete about face, ranging from being totally mute to absolute hysterics to unusual behavior (including refusal to eat or drink or sleep) over a period of time, depending on how one channels the shock.
And, of course, the intensity of the emotional and psychological relationship between the two also plays a role in how one responds to personal shock affecting a spouse. The differences can be major, combined with various cultural norms, and/or may not be apparent for some time - perhaps years. The latter behavior reminds me of the emotional and psychological behavior so many of the WW II, Korean and Vietnam vets suffered after serving in a time when outward demonstrations of what we called "shell shock" then and PTSD now was not well accepted (or understood).
Or perhaps at a less complex level, Zeitoun's wife did indeed just feel that she needed to "take over," make the necessary arrangements to identify and claim her husband for burial and assume full responsibility for their children.
Mahlia
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For an entire year after my husbands death at the age of 49 I was in a detached mode. I can completely understand this coping mechanism.
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:)
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Some of you were surprised that Kathy and Zeitoun went back to New Orleans! Where could they go? Their business was in the city, they had a reputation there, Zeitoun was known for the good jobs he had done and he continues to get good work after the hurricane, after that terrible experience.
His calm is inner, I think. My husband never showed emotion either and I wished he had in so many occasions. It's a manly thing with some individuals I believe and is true in any culture. And not just men, all individuals express emotions in varying ways and degrees.
Kathy is worried about Zeitoun; he's become more religious; fasts on two days of the week; eating less and working harder. Kathy's struggles with the whole experience has shown up in different ways. It would be difficult to be reminded daily - their neighbor on Claiborne who was visited by the National Guard, helped to pack for the boat and was helicopted out. Zeitoun passes the Greyhound bus station often and is reminded of that horror.
But his two friends spent months in a prison.
Zeitoun had the money for a lawyer and, consequently, was out of the prison much earlier. But I think it is obvious that his treatment in prison was worse because he was identified as a Muslim, don't you agree?
If so, they both must be worried about that aspect of their lives. And their children as Muslims!!
America in time will be more tolerant and less suspicious of Muslims I'm sure. We are still very aware of 9/11 and the terrorists.
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And yet when she was convinced that Zeitoun had drowned, or had been shot by the looters, she was so calm and ready to go to N.O., claim his body, bury him and get on with her life. I think it was her frustration dealing with the bureaucratic red tape (we really can't call it that) that got to her - before she learned of his harsh treatment from his captors..
JoanP,When she thought he was dead there were obvious steps she could take, leading to closure. I wonder if she is now living in a state of limbo, so to speak. And wonders, "is this the way it's always going to be? When will our real life begin again?" And "can this ever happen again -- take our rights away?"
Ella, I agree with you, that New Orleans was the only place they could go. Zeitoun knew he could make a living, he still had a good reputation, and from what we can gather in the conclusion, he's doing all right in that respect. I think it would have been very hard for him to start up in a place like Phoenix, without an established client base.
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I also agree that the family had to return to New Orleans. Especially in the repair and renovation business, Zeitoun had an outstanding opportunity to help the city recover.
But we might be taking the book at face value. Did he really recover emotionally, or did he ... as Ella suggested ... just cover up his inner turmoil by working hard. I think men are able to do that better than women in many cases.
I do not agree that the outlook is rosy for American acceptance of Moslem practice and attire. I'm pessimistic about this, perhaps from my experiences and awareness of antisemitism against Jews (I am Jewish). The entire anti-immigration feeling as expressed in the Arizona broughaha (spelling?) recently is one more instance of dislike and fear of any people who are "different" although I do understand people fearing violence from those who cross the Arizona border (my father used to live in Arizona). And look at the Tea Party ... don't get started on what they believe.
One of the reasons this book was so difficult for me to take in was recalling all the difficulties encountered by any minority in the U.S. and in other countries. Thoughts?
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MAHLIA, CAROLYN: I, too, understand that coping mechanism. When my husband died, suddenly and unexpectedly, I was like a robot for months, doing what had to be done. Then sometimes feelings would break through.
The moment they broke through for Cathy was when she couldn't get anyone to tell her where the courthouse was where her husband would be tried. I had the same reaction. That was when I burst into tears reading the book. Why on earth do you think that happened?
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My husband and I both read the book and had slightly different reactions. His reaction was mostly anger and surprised at the different levels of government in their treatment of Zeitoun. While mine was more sorrow but not surprise.
Senator Dan Inouye, Hawaii, made a terrific speech on the Senate floor just a week or two ago about how he was treated as a Japanese after Pearl Harbor. Young Japanese men actually had to petition the government so they could fight in World War II. I didn't know until his speech (when another Senator mentioned it) that he has a Medal of Honor.
Sorry, kind of off the subject. But it does show how many of our citizens react against minorities (religious and ethnic) in times of trouble.
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Jean ~ I don't think your post is off subject at all.
A discussion of how everyone feels about how the US authorities have been doing racial profiling might be allowed here. Thoughts?
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Racial profiling! By the goverment! By the media!
Oh, I think it is all true, you read it, you hear it. For years and years it was the black population, still is, or course, in many ways although I think they have made some strides.
Yes, Mippy, I think also there is a subtle negative undercurrent in America about Jews, sad to say. Why?
Yes, FlaJean, there have been all kinds of books (and a movie, I think) about that dreadful incarceration of Japanese-Americans during WWII. My husband served in the Navy in WWII (I'm rather old, you see) on an aircraft carrier and while there were many black sailors they were all treated as inferiors and served in capacities such as kitchen help, etc. He was troubled by it.
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I was mad as hops when I was reading the last part of the book. Zeitoun, an innocent man, was arrested, mistreated, and held incommunicado. It never should have happened that way. It's important to figure out why it happened, what fraction should never have happened, and how it could have been avoided.
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FlaJean, you said your husband showed anger at the government treatment of Zeitoun and his friends, while you showed sorrow.
One of our questions in the heading is what will you take away from this book. Good question. Offhand, I would say I'm divided in my opinion about the handling of the hurricane in New Orleans by FEMA. President Bush had just made FEMA a part of Homeland Security in 2003. Bureaucracies are slow to organize; particularly one of this size. It's huge!
http://www.fema.gov/
The soldiers were acting on orders. There had been a mandatory evacuation; no one should have been in the city and the soldiers were ordered to arrest looters, to protect property. Zeitoun should not have been in the city, he had the means to leave, he should not have taken the chances he did. We are a nation - a city - of laws and particularly during a disaster a person needs to obey the government, whether it is a mayor, a governor, or the president. Order must be established.
On the other hand, the soldiers were undoutedlly too quick to act and certainly somewhere - at the prison camp - the arrestees should have been allowed a phone call. The police officer, Gonzales, who was one of those who arrested Zeitoun had this to say:
"When they (six cops in a boat) arrived, Gonzales was one of the first to enter. He saw a pile of computer components and stereo equipment on the dining room table, and he saw the fourt men. There was something in their attitude, he thought, which signaled that they were up to no good."
They brought the men to a staging ground and handed them to the authorities. When later interviewed Gonzales was regretful and said "They should have gotten a phone call."
Yes, Yes.
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Yes, not getting a phone call was terrible. We put all these safeguards of rights in place, but in the end, we don't know if they're being followed or not. I wonder in other circumstances, how many people are dragged to jail without being charged or allowed a phone call, to be released later.
A friend told me her son (Black) was going into his grandmother's apartment, when two policemen grabbed him, made him lie down on the ground, searched him, and took him to jail. a few days later, he was released. He never found out why.
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It's reasonable that they should have been picked up, and maybe even charged, though, given a chance, they could probably have come up with proof they were legitimate. But then the system broke down.
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It was really frustrating to watch the saga of the useless trailer, but that was probably a lucky break for the Zeitouns. It turned out that some of the trailers were health hazards, full of vapors of lovely things like formaldehyde, and people got sick living in them.
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I'd never lived in the American South before relocating from Maryland to NC in 2004. It is STILL an enormous shock for me when I realize how segregated this area of our country still is.
I hear that division in many instances, witness it in unexpected (to me) ways, and am often appalled by the racially discriminating manner in which folks speak about or address people unlike themselves. I do a lot of public speaking about the Middle East and Central Asia and often folks in the audience will ask me "why is someone like you" (meaning Caucasian) interested in folks like that (meaning people of ethnic, cultural and religious backgrounds)? At first, I responded with a typical academic answer. Now I simply respond with "that's obviously God's plan for me. Thanks for asking and Bless Your Heart!"
JOAN - your comment about your Black friend's son being arrested as he tried to enter his grandmother's apartment reminded me of an instance I experienced sometime ago. Our trash is picked up on Tuesday's - sometimes in the morning, mid-morning or occasionally in the late afternoon. Since the weather has been so enormously hot this Summer, I meet the route fellows who take care of our neighborhood and hand them a plastic bag containing 4 - 6 bottles of ice cold water. I've done that for many months and they are always appreciative of the water as I am of their excellent service.
One day, when our trash container was REALLY filled up to overflowing, I carried the bag of water out to the curb behind the fellow pulling the container and waited to hand him the bag of cold water for he and his partner. He thanked me profusely for the water, said they really looked forward to stopping for our pickup, because we're towards the end of the route and their water supply was about to run out. He grinned and said "but we know we can always count on you." I waited while he dumped the trash container into the truck and was setting it back down on the curb. Suddenly, a police car pulled up, the Officer (White) got out and asked "Ma'am, do you need help?" I assured him I did not! After he'd gone away, one of the fellows turned to me and said quietly "He just doesn't know you, Ma'am. Don't be upset with him." I was absolutely appalled; the fellow was just resigned.
Mahlia
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I came from a suburb in Auckland where there were virtually NO black or brown people. The only Maori I knew were Kiri Te Kanawa's cousins who went to my high school. In a large high school we had only four brown skinned children. My family were very prejudiced. If one of us had married out of our ethnic group we would have probably been disowned.
It is different now regarding intermarriage in my family. We now have a brown baby in our family. My sister has realised there is still discrimination when my niece and her husband had to take their newborn to the childrens hospital because she had small seizure. They were grilled for an hour and made to feel they had done something to the baby to cause the seizure. This because the babys father is a very big very dark man. The staff did not take note of the neat way the parents dressed, their obvious healthy lifestyle ( no drugs etc) they only saw the big very dark man and thought Ha! must be some abuse here. The baby is fine will be two years old in December and has the most patient loving dad.
Brooke and Graces great grandmother was Maori. Hence Brookes beautiful skin, brown eyes and wonderful thick wavy hair.
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When I was reading this book I could not help wondering. If this event had happened in Florida would the outcome have been better. Would the levees have been improved long ago? All I could see was black people who seemed to be the ones suffering the most during the TV coverage of Katrina.
Carolyn
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Oh, MAHLIA, what a story - a dreadful story about the policeman and the garbage man. He was resigned, how sad!
You must read THE OTHER WES MOORE by Wes Moore, because this discrmination is not just in the south, it's in the poor neighborhoods of our biggest cities. I hear about the conferences on education being held; I hope those people realize the dreadful conditions these children live with, almost hopeless in my opinion.
Read the reviews here and listen to the trailer by the author:
http://www.amazon.com/Other-Wes-Moore-Name-Fates/dp/0385528191/ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=1285604403&sr=8-1
I would like to discuss this book with others, possibly a two-week discussion. Anyone interested?
JOANK, I think your friend might be interested in the book, look it up.
PATH, yes, wasn't that trailer on Zeitoun's lot (I think it was on the street in front of his house) ridiculous. Never hooked up, no steps, fill of vapors, as you said. What a waste it all was and I wonder if FEMA has made any improvements in the way all of this is handled.
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Hi CAROLYN. We were posting together and the story of your niece's baby is heartwarming and, yet, sad too. I'm so happy that the beautiful baby is healthy and loved so well. Did you write a letter to the hospital about the treatment? I think I would have had to to ease my mind.
The new generation is better in this regard aren't they? We have a black president and, like you, none of us would have dated a black fellow when young and would have been disgraced if we had done so. Likewise, I doubt if any black family would have welcomed a white DIL in their family either.
It's going to take awhile for it all to change and some may never.
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FEMA'S TRAILERS:
"In the days after hurricane Katrina devastated southern Louisiana and Mississippi, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) bought 145,000 trailers to house the thousands of victims displaced by the storm. Over the next five years, the trailers -- which emitted unhealthy levels of formaldehyde, but which were nevertheless used by thousands who couldn't find any other place to live -- became a symbol of the federal government's bumbling in the face of a national tragedy. Sold at auction, and then repurposed as housing for BP cleanup workers, the trailers remain a problem that just won't go away."
See full article from DailyFinance: http://srph.it/bAIqNH
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Wonder how many people have ongoing illness globally due to unhealthy levels of formaldehyde
in so many homes and buildings? It seems to me that profit is the bottom line and you cannot tell me manufacturers were ignorant. Also what checks do we have as citizens to ensure we have healthy componants and foods. Seems to me our systems are broken! Its criminal and gets me so mad! ( environmental hazards are one of my biggest worries)
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Just a note to say a Big Thanks to our great DL's Ella and JoanK, who have made this discussion come alive! This book was very difficult for me to keep reading, but because of the group I did not give up when it became so upsetting to me. Thanks to you two and to all the great people here in SeniorLearn who participate!
Aside: The Kindle worked pretty well for this after all!
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TODAY, SEPT. 30th. OUR LAST DAY AND I HAVE SO ENJOYED DISCUSSING THIS BOOK WITH ALL OF YOU.
I HOPE YOU DID, ALSO!
MIPPY, THANKS FOR YOUR POST. AND IT WAS AN UPSETTING BOOK IN MANY WAYS.
I would llike to know your thoughts on the Kindle, however, because many of our participants will be using that in future book discussions in which we need to separate the parts of a book. What are your suggestions?
I will be getting a Kindle, I know, one of these days and am storing all this information away where I hope I can retrieve it in the future.
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Wonder how many people have ongoing illness globally due to unhealthy levels of formaldehyde
in so many homes and buildings? It seems to me that profit is the bottom line and you cannot tell me manufacturers were ignorant.
I suffer from chemical sensitivities, and I can tell you that FEMA's reaction to the trailers--at first not believing there is a problem, then being very slow to take it seriously and do anything, then doing something inadequate--is a common one. Of course, that seems to be FEMA's general approach here.
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I cannot believe that September is over! Where did the time go? I want to thank you, Ella, and JoanK, for sticking with the discussion of a book that was unsettling at times...and all of you who shared your own personal experiences.
There were some bright spots - at the end we learn of the birth of little Ahmad in 2006. I was surprised and happy to read that life goes on for the Zeitouns - in New Orleans. Business is thriving...though so many of the Zeitouns' neighbors have moved, they returned, they prosper.
Have you had the chance to access the link to The Zeitoun Foundation (http://www.zeitounfoundation.org/index.php?id=3), which was mentioned at the end of the book? Lots of good information in Eggers updates in this site. I was interested in how Eggers is using the proceeds from the sale of this book...
"A portion of the proceeds of the book will go to the Zeitouns themselves. They have five kids, and I wanted to be sure that they would all be taken care of for college. And we’re planning to give some to those arrested with Zeitoun. The state of Louisiana is unlikely to compensate these men for their wrongful conviction, so we’ll do what we can. The brunt of the proceeds, though, will go to the Zeitoun Foundation. The Foundation is a very simple grant-giving operation. It will take the proceeds of the book and then distribute them to a number of nonprofits, most of them working in New Orleans. I was able to visit a number of them recently and they’re doing fantastic work. And we’re at a juncture in the recovery of New Orleans that a lot of us elsewhere in the country might assume that all is well again in New Orleans, the recovery is complete, etc. But this is the time when they need new funds, an influx of interest and support. So we’re hoping to contribute to the ongoing work of Rebuilding Together, the Porch, The Green Project, the Innocence Project, and others."
Thanks again, everyone - till next time!
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Where did September go?
Ella and JoanK, thanks so much for leading this discussion and for bringing this book to our attention. I don't read a lot of non-fiction, and am sure glad I didn't miss this one. It, along with the discussion, was an eye-opener.
Mahlia, your experience with the trash and the police -- unbelievable.
Carolyn, I'm glad you were with us. Enjoyed your input from the Kiwi perspective.
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I am so happy to have participated in this discussion. Our book has made a permanent impression on me. I still feel angry with the powers that be in Louisiana. Also, with FEMA, and the Bush administration. I still can hardly believe that our government could not have done a better job, with the aftermath of the flood!
A big thank you to our discussion leaders. I appreciate your time, and your energy.
Mahlia, I am so glad that you are posting again. I learn a lot from your posts. I have missed you.
Sheila
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If we feel that the times are out of joint, we are not alone. Here is a poem written 2000 years ago:
From GEORGICS I
by Virgil
I feel the dread,
and the sun burns me, burns like a fever.
The world is full of war, and at home, crime
resembles a war. Men flock to the city
leaving their fields to weeds, their tools to rust.
Plowshares now are beaten into swords.
It’s bad in Asia, bad in Europe, bad...
No treaties hold, no laws hold, nothing
But Mars, blood red ... He holds it all
hurtling through the sky in his chariot.
I feel those wheels rumble. I feel the sway
of speed. The horses are mad and running faster.
They ought to check. They ought to answer the reins.
There ought to be reins.
But there are none.
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As usual, you guys have been great discussants. I can't believe that the time is up already. If it was goodbye, I'd be crying, but it's on to "The Left Hand of Darkness", tomorrow.
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It was a terrific discussion. Thank you, Ella and JoanK
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Thanks also for the great discussion. The book was very sad and got me mad at times but it was well worth reading.
Carolyn
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It has been a true pleasure interacting with all of you again. Many thanks for the invitation to join the discussion. I post regularly in Seniors&Friends, so hope to see some of you in those discussions. Carry on!
Mahlia