Post by: BooksAdmin on September 30, 2010, 08:36:52 PM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/excellcover.JPG)(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/pymphoto)(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/quartetcover.jpg)
Coming in November...
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels.
Will you try to join us in November for one or both of them?
For Your Consideration - Some Topics for Pre-Discussion
1. How would you describe Jane Austen's heroines? Was there a "spinster" in the lot?
2. At what age is one considered a spinster? Is 31 too old or too young?
3. Is the term, "spinster," still used today to refer to unmarried women?
4. Do you know women who have never married? Did they make a deliberate choice not to marry?
5. How do you think a spinster's life and a widow's life differ in later years?
~~~
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in August )
Post by: JoanP on September 30, 2010, 10:16:49 PM
We're planning to do not only one of Pym's novels, but two! Two weeks on each. Our readers selected "Excellent Women," for discussion - the story of a young woman facing spinsterhood - at the age of 31! Can someone tell us where this term comes from? Is it still used to describe women who don't marry? It sounds like a derogatory term, doesn't it? Mildred Lathbury risks spinsterhood unless she forgoes romance and simply settles. Is it worth it? What will she do? What would you do?
... The author is often compared to Jane Austen, but really she is not. I have a note somewhere describing Pym's work as "Austen's Persuasion writ backwards." There is no Captain Wentworth, no romantic hero showing up at the end for a happily ever after ending. In this sense, Pym is more realistic, don't you think?
Spinsterhood is Pym's true area of interest - as is evident in "Quartet in Autumn," the story of ageing "spinsters" as they face retirement and the prospect of living alone. What I found interesting and believable - these characters continue to look for love. Not really surprising, though.
Join us for one or for both books in November - this should be a rewarding and thought-provoking experience.
Post by: pedln on October 01, 2010, 11:30:04 AM
Post by: JoanP on October 01, 2010, 12:25:47 PM
Quote
In 1977 the most important occasion was the "rediscovery of fiction. In January of 1977 the London Times Literary Supplement held a mock survey of several literati to inquire whom they held to be the most overrated and undertated authors. Barbara Pym was the only living writer to be mentionned twice - as underrated. Following this, her novels were published again and ther reputation continued to grow on both sides of the Atlantic.
I also found that there is a very active Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/)- am tempted to join -
About the Barbara Pym society:
"The aims of the Society are to foster the appreciation and wider knowledge of the life and works of Barbara Pym; to secure the preservation of the manuscripts, letters and memorabilia of Barbara Pym in conjunction with the Bodleian Library; to encourage and support publications and theses on Barbara Pym, her life and work; and to provide a programme of literary events and regular communications concerning the work of Barbara Pym."
I think I'll write to them about our site, what do you think? Isn't this a "literary event?"
Post by: JudeS on October 01, 2010, 02:17:22 PM
The question of spinsterhood or bachelorhood is very interesting. Since Gay rights and Gay marriage have become more accepted (at least in California) perhaps less people are living alone or never "coupling".
The origin of SPINSTER is is a woman whose occupation is spinning..Archaic meaning:An unmarried woman of gentle family.
I'm sure there are more meanings that will be revealed.
Post by: nlhome on October 01, 2010, 06:41:26 PM
I did enjoy Excellent Women - I was reminded of some women I knew.
Post by: JoanP on October 02, 2010, 09:46:33 PM
Quartet in Autumn - spinsters - bachelors...living alone, solitude is something that they value highly. - But will they choose to live out their years following retirement alone? Practical matters may contribute to the decision.
nlhome - I would very much like to talk about women we know who live alone - not only spinsters...widows tend to face the same choices they do. (I'm sure we don't call them "spinsters" today - how shall we refer to them?
Post by: bellemere on October 03, 2010, 11:34:26 AM
Post by: Gumtree on October 03, 2010, 01:35:42 PM
I'm not a Brit but certainly will be able to demystify 'cauliflower cheese' and 'fairy cakes' if in fact demystification is required. Can't see that baked beans on toast for breakfast on Sunday (or any other day) needs justification - it's not exactly a luxury :D
Post by: salan on October 03, 2010, 06:35:27 PM
Sally
Post by: JoanP on October 05, 2010, 02:07:11 PM
Bellemere, a Pym fan! Super! I've got to admit cauliflower cheese sounds good. Fairy cakes sound interesting - my granddaughter has a thing going with fairies...tells me she sees them out of the corner of her eye as they jump into flowers. Gum, I'm not sure about baked beans on toast for breakfast, however. Will have to go into that - are we talking about Boston brown beans? Am looking forward to comments from your librarian on Pym.
Sally, I think that once you get started on Pym and the young "spinsters" in Excellent Women, you will want to stick around for the discussion of Quartet in Autumn...which in my opinion is the better, more developed, of the two. The "Senior Spinsters" in this one face many of the issues we face...and should provide for an interesting discussion.
Post by: pedln on October 05, 2010, 06:18:47 PM
I don't want to jump the gun on the discussion, but somehow I feel like I'm reading about two entirely different time periods, or perhaps that's the difference between male and female writers. Granted, one is much coarser than the others. It will be interesting to compare notes. I look forward to it.
We used to eat baked beans on brown bread on Saturday nights. That was a Boston thing, even for people like my in-laws, transplanted from there to Puerto Rico.
"Senior spinters," "younger spinsters" When was the last time any of you used term "spinster?"
Post by: JoanP on October 13, 2010, 02:57:21 PM
I noticed somewhere that Pym called herself a "spinster" - does that make it a more acceptable term...more acceptable than "Old Maid" for example?
Or do you see the two as the same?
Post by: JoanP on October 15, 2010, 08:57:11 AM
Welcome to the Barbara Pym Society!
Post by: pedln on October 15, 2010, 09:51:39 AM
I'm currently reading an entirely different book for my f2f group, but also set in Britain in the 1950s, so will be curious to see how it compares. It's just beginning to hit me that that was a long time ago and a lot has happened since then. :P
Post by: CallieOK on October 15, 2010, 11:22:26 AM
Edit: My library only has "Exellent Women", which I have reserved. I also reserved "A Very Private Eye - an autobiography (of Barbara Pym) in diaries and letters" - edited by Hazel Hoff and Hilary Pym.
Post by: JoanP on October 15, 2010, 03:44:11 PM
Welcome, Callie!
Post by: PatH on October 15, 2010, 08:34:19 PM
Post by: JoanP on October 16, 2010, 11:32:27 AM
Post by: bellemere on October 16, 2010, 04:46:06 PM
Post by: pedln on October 16, 2010, 08:23:40 PM
Post by: donnamo on October 16, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
Post by: JoanP on October 17, 2010, 11:19:55 AM
Post by: Sandy on October 17, 2010, 02:30:01 PM
It has been years since I posted here but can't wait to get back into it. Won't it be fun having The Barbara Pym Society join us.
Thank you so much for making it a double header Barbara Pym. If I remember right in the fifties when I married we thought if someone was not married by 30, the odds were not in their favor of marrying. Spinster was not a word we used. I remember one who with a smile called herself an Unclaimed Treasure.
Post by: CallieOK on October 17, 2010, 02:45:31 PM
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 17, 2010, 04:18:35 PM
I am not sure if I am doing this right, but I am a member of the Barbara Pym Society and the yahoo group in the UK. I would like to join your discussions - your whole website looks very interesting.
I have been reading and re-reading Pym for at least 25 years - there is always something new to see in her works. In our yahoo group we are reading Quartet in Autumn this month (we read one Pym novel each month). It's not my favourite but it does have some good bits - Excellent Women is, in my opinion, Pym's masterpiece and the most "Austen-like" of her books.
I will try to post a bit about myself on your "introductions" messageboard.
Best wishes
Rosemary
Post by: salan on October 17, 2010, 04:35:20 PM
Sally
Post by: JoanP on October 17, 2010, 05:20:31 PM
Sandy - welcome back! Yes, 30 seemed to be the dividing line, the birthday when a young lady began to be considered a spinster...if not in those exact words. Do you think things have changed much today?
Look who's joined us! Our first visitor from the Barbara Pym Society. We are so happy to have you join us in this discussion, Rosemary! We hope you will stay on with us after it is over for many more... Welcome! to both of you!
Post by: pedln on October 17, 2010, 06:22:45 PM
Callie, you have a funny aunt. :D
Post by: fairanna on October 18, 2010, 02:32:24 PM
I have been widowed now for 16 years Senior net made a difference as I went to 17 bashes and made many friends I had two brother remaining from 5 just lost the one 3 years younger than me this June and still have one who is 6 years younger ...my 4 children and 7 grandchildren live near and I see them often plus I have neighbors who treat me like a dotty aunt lol I am very active , taken classes at the local U and became a member of the Poetry SOciety of VA won some awards and read poetry twice monthly have two HUGE GOLDENS and keep very active...have had a great life but I do miss my husband i am managing and still find life interesting ....and love to read and read eveyones comments ....so will get the books and be around to join in the discussion....anna
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 18, 2010, 04:05:10 PM
I am interested to hear that you have two Golden Retrievers, as we are thinking about getting another dog, but I have always said no more Retrievers, as the last one was so strong and just about pulled me over. My daughters were not able to help with the walking as he was just too powerful for them - son used to walk him at night, but he (son!) is now away from home, so it would be down to me and my 12 year old. My husband only really wants a Retriever, and I must say I do miss having one around, but I was wondering if we had just had an exceptionally hyper model last time - our first was a female and fairly placid, second was a male we acquired aged 5 when his owners had to move abroad. How do you manage with yours and do you have any tips for (i) choosing one and (ii) training?
I have heard quite a few people say that they were not happy in retirement communties, and some have in fact moved out back into the "real" world. It is very sad that your relation was so unhappy.
To return to the books - if anyone would like a copy of Excellent Women, I have two and would be happy to send one to you. I have found in my correspondence with people in the Pym group that if I send things surface mail from here they inevitably arrive in the US within a week, and at a fraction of the cost - I have also inherited a large amount of stamps from my husband's uncle, so happy to cover the postage - just let me know.
Rosemary
Post by: fairanna on October 19, 2010, 02:29:23 AM
Since I live on the east coast it shouldnt take long to arrive my address is below
ANNA ALEXANDER
207 DOMINION DRIVE
NEWPORT NEWS VA 23602
U.S.A
Would you like me to reimburse you or allow me to send you something from here I will be happy to do so...really looking forward and one thing I didnt add in my previous post MY MOTTO IS "I AM GOING TO LIVE UNTIL I DIE!!!"
BLESS ALL..anna
Post by: fairanna on October 19, 2010, 02:39:15 AM
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 19, 2010, 11:05:34 AM
I am putting the book in the post - you don't owe me anything, it didn't cost me anything and I'm glad to find it a home. I have an incurable habit of buying copies of certain favourite books I know I already have - I feel I need to "save" them from the charity shop, sale, etc - then I have to hide them from my husband.
Thanks for the advice re the retrievers. I certainly agree that females are easier. I was at the vet this morning with my cats so I asked her advice - she said a puppy would be hard work but a rescue dog might be unreliable with cats, though she did suggest we visited the local dog and cat home, so we might do that.
Where did you live in Europe?
Got to stop as have a viewer coming for my house - have been trying to sell it since May and it has proved a nightmare.
Best wishes,
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on October 19, 2010, 11:27:45 AM
Good advice to get a female! I agree wholeheartedly with that. We don't have a Retriever, but a feisty little Irish Terrier. I hear from other owners that they have a mind of their own - but that the females are not as hard to handle. Perhaps that is true of all breeds? A rescue dog makes sense too - a female!
Anna, the matter of housing is something that we will be paying close attention to in Quartet in Autumn. I've been hearing that this book has been referred to as a manual for Seniors entering retirement. Surely we will have quite a discussion here about that - an issue of concern to all of us - or will be. And thank you for sharing Lucille's story here. I'm sure we will get back to that. Rosemary, I plan to get over to the Yahoo discussion of Quartet in Autumn as soon as I can - thanks for the mention.
Post by: JoanP on October 19, 2010, 11:49:02 AM
Callie and Bellemere tell us that they will have Pym's autobiography in hand for the discussion. "A Very Private Eye" is an autobiography (of Barbara Pym) in diaries and letters" - edited by Hazel Hoff and Hilary Pym. Hilary Pym was Barbara's younger sister with whom she lived for many years.
The subject of Spinsterhood - Barbara referred to this in her diaries as "the uncertainties of loving." That will make quite a topic for discussion, I think.
Sandy - I love that - a spinster: "an unclaimed treasure."
Bellemere, remember when you posted that "we will need a Brit to de-mystify some of the English culinary delights mentioned?"
Well, I just read Rosemary's post in the Introductions... "I do actually have a copy of the Barbara Pym cookery book, which was published after her death, and gives the recipes for some of the dishes that keep turning up in the novels." Put on your aprons! We're going to do some cooking! Cauliflower cheese - Fairy Cakes! Can't wait!
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 19, 2010, 05:04:20 PM
I think it's one of the pleasures of BP's books that the food is always described in such detail - after all, it is a big part of most of our daily rounds, even though some authors seem to feel they should rise above such things (the Sunday Times for many years ran a feature called "A Day In The Life Of" or something like that, and nine times out of ten the Important Person interviewed would claim that they never ate breakfast or lunch - as if, as my children would no doubt say).
Rosemary
Post by: PatH on October 19, 2010, 05:24:25 PM
Post by: pedln on October 19, 2010, 06:50:39 PM
Rosemary, you are indeed a gem, that's lovely of you to want to share your books.
And Anna, it's so good to have you here. I have missed our get-togethers in Newport News, but now that my daughter is no longer in C'ville I never get near your neck of the woods.
Recipes --- hooray. One of my favorite pastimes -- just to look at recipes. But oh my, I can't even imagine what a "Boiled Baby" is. Or "Caulifower cheese." Please post those recipes here.
Post by: Gumtree on October 20, 2010, 02:38:48 AM
Victoria sandwich and blancmange were a couple of my mother's masterpieces. Cauliflower cheese features in my kitchen on a fairly regular basis and Sultana cake was one of the first cakes I baked after I married - still make it occasionally though I don't bake much nowadays.
Already I can see that Barbara Pym will be a trip down memory lane. - must get hold the books.
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 20, 2010, 03:56:12 AM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
<
Coming in November...
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels.
| Discussion Schedule November 1 - 5 ~ Chapters 1 - 13 November 6 - 10 ~ Chapters 14 - 27 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/exwomencoversm.jpg) |
Some Topics from Excellent Women for Your Consideration and Discussion beginning Nov. 1:
1. From her portrayal of Mildred Lathbury, can you tell how Barbara Pym views the life of an unmarried woman, the spinster?
2. How does Mildred see herself? How old is she? Is she resigned to spinsterhood or is she still hopeful the right man will come along?
3. What did you think of the male characters in Excellent Women? Were any of them comparable to Jane Austen's men? Were any of them interested in Mildred?
4. Do you find examples of Barbara Pym's Oxford education in her fiction? Does she flaunt it? Do you think Mildred attended university?
5. Barbara Pym's forte is said to be comedy. Would you say the same is true of Jane Austen? Will you share some examples from Excellent Women?
6. Will you note and share some of the cosy details characteristic of Pym's novels, especially the kitchen and cookery details?
7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church. Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it is now?
8.Finally, do you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women" of St. Mary's parish?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in August )
I've realised over the past month or so how changes in ones life can affect ones baking. I used to be baking all the time when my son was still at home, but now it seems too much to make a cake just for one daughter (and unfortunately she would demolish the lot in 24 hours - not a good idea), although I have made things like muffins and put them in the freezer. My mother overcame this by continuing to bake for sales, bazaars, and friends - perhaps that is my next stage!
Perhaps the Pym group read should include a virtual tea party? Would be nice to think of everyone sitting down to some scones and jam, especially in this wintery weather (I think we had snow last night, though it's melted off now). Earlier this year I attended a real tea in Edinburgh for fans of DE Stevenson (she wrote Miss Buncle's Book, and many others) - it was held at a lovely cafe in Sciennes Road and we had tiny scones, then meringues with cream, and Stevenson's great granddaughter came and gave a very interesting talk.
Rosemary
Post by: serenesheila on October 20, 2010, 04:02:43 AM
Sheila
Post by: Gumtree on October 20, 2010, 05:26:36 AM
Post by: donnamo on October 20, 2010, 03:17:25 PM
Rosemary, that sounds like it would have been a wonderful time in Edinburgh. I envy your wintery weather. I'd like to cozy up with some hot tea and a good read. Enjoy it!
Perhaps the Pym group read should include a virtual tea party? Would be nice to think of everyone sitting down to some scones and jam, especially in this wintery weather (I think we had snow last night, though it's melted off now). Earlier this year I attended a real tea in Edinburgh for fans of DE Stevenson (she wrote Miss Buncle's Book, and many others) - it was held at a lovely cafe in Sciennes Road and we had tiny scones, then meringues with cream, and Stevenson's great granddaughter came and gave a very interesting talk.
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on October 20, 2010, 07:31:58 PM
I agree, Pedln, this is an "excellent" group gathering here! Rosemary, I love that idea! Let's have a tea party - a virtual tea party! Let's wait until we've read into Excellent Women to get some ideas about what to prepare. Be on the lookout for something that will suit Gum who is now summering in the antipodes.
We've always had such fun with these food novels - Who remembers Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society? I actually made the potato peel pie. My husband was such a good sport and actually ate it! (I'll confess to loading up on sour cream and chives which were not in that recipe.)
PatH - a cookbook from the Master and Commander series! 20 volumes! A big cookbook?!
I've another idea - how are your memories? Do you think you can step back in time and share some of those memories of your twenties, early thirties to better put yourself in Mildred's shoes?
Post by: PatH on October 20, 2010, 07:44:48 PM
Master and Commander is 20 volumes, and has many references to food. The cookbook is a 300 page paperback.
PatH - a cookbook from the Master and Commander series! 20 volumes! A big cookbook?!
I've gotten my copy of Excellent Women.
Post by: ursamajor on October 24, 2010, 03:30:10 PM
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 24, 2010, 05:02:40 PM
BP drew a great deal on her personal experiences - especially those of working with anthropologists, and with academics in general. Many of the places that her characters frequent, especially in London and Oxford, were well known to her - Kardomah cafes (which I remember from my own youth), Lyons tea houses, libraries, High Anglican churches, church bazaars, garden fetes and so on. Excellent Women features just about all of these, I think - I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts on it.
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on October 24, 2010, 06:53:58 PM
With a week to go, it's time to get started with Excellent Women - if you have it. I'll put up a few focus questions this evening - also am looking for a link to a good online biography to provide some understanding of Pym's life and how her experiences went into her characters. As Rosemary posted - "
Quote
"BP drew a great deal on her personal experiences."
If anyone finds a link to a good biography, it will be much appreciated - I'll go hunt now...
Post by: JoanP on October 24, 2010, 08:29:29 PM
Didn't have to hunt too far - here's a great Biography - taken right from the home page of the Barbara Pym Society - your group, Rosemary! You might want to read it before starting the novels...
Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html)
I'm going to put it in the heading here for reference. I hope you enjoy it.
Post by: PatH on October 25, 2010, 10:43:28 PM
Post by: pedln on October 26, 2010, 09:51:53 AM
Post by: JoanP on October 26, 2010, 10:01:18 AM
Pedln, do you think unmarried young ladies (30ish) view themselves differently today, than they did in the 50's? In Excellent Women, Pym constantly makes reference to "spinsters"...
I take it that the women you are referring to in your post are older women...our age? Our age group is so much more than never married and married - when you factor in the divorced, the widows... When we get to Quartet in August, maybe we'll see Pym treating widows and never married in the same light.
Do you remember the adjective you used to describe Quartet when you first read it? I really want to talk about what you meant then...
Post by: ursamajor on October 26, 2010, 12:26:04 PM
Post by: CallieOK on October 26, 2010, 01:27:16 PM
I've already found descriptions of her personal experiences that were obviously used as a basis for characters and events in "Excellent Women".
I'd bet today's 30-Something women don't even know what the word "spinster" means! They see themselves as Individuals - usually with a career - and wouldn't have it any other way.
In the 50's, college girls were supposed to be looking for an educated man on his way up the career ladder to marry...just the opposite of today. The idea of merging your self into that of a husband's is another thing today's 30-somethings don't go along with.
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 26, 2010, 05:11:22 PM
Your reference to 1950s girls reminded me of the film Mona Lisa Smile - my daughters and I loved all the dreadful lessons on how to catch your man, impress his boss, etc (the rather trite ending was less impressive) - but my elder daughter is clever, ambitious, etc, and still regularly bemoans her boyfriend-less status. She is only 15 so may grow out of it, but it still seems to be an important status symbol to have one.
I think that being unmarried is still seen differently from being widowed, divorced, etc. Barbara Pym explores this a bit in Quartet in Autumn, when Letty goes to live in the house of an elderly widow, who clearly has status because she has been married. Maybe the grass is just always greener, as I know that when my children were little I used to envy single women who could go home and get a good night's sleep - I remember watching a Delia Smith cookery programme (she is married but has no children) when my son was tiny and awake all night; all I could think was "it's all very well for her, she's had 8 hours sleep"!!
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on October 26, 2010, 06:16:29 PM
Quote
when my children were little I used to envy single women who could go home and get a good night's sleep :D
I'm getting a kick out of this discussion and we haven't even started! I've been thinking of my friends who have remained single...not many of them, we were 50's girls. I have to say that they were not really happy people when we gathered for - anything. The talk was usually about husbands, kids, etc. One did marry when in her fifties - and she brightened considerably when joining her old friends.
The Mona Lisa Smile (http://www.sonypictures.com/homevideo/monalisasmile/title-navigation-1.html) with Julia Roberts. I think I'm going to check Netflix for that, rosemary. Do you know if any of Pym's books were adapted for film?
There are a few focus questions in the heading - please don't feel you have to respond to them - but you might want to keep some of them in mind as you read Excellent Women. We're not beginning the discussion of the book early - not until Nov. 1 -
Post by: CallieOK on October 26, 2010, 06:20:00 PM
Oh, I truly didn't mean to paint with a broad brush re: the attitudes of young women today. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
My just barely 16-year-old granddaughter bemoans her lack of a boyfriend - but her sister, who is almost 18, insists she doesn't have time to bother with one.
I'm so glad I'm reading "A Very Private Eye" because it will be interesting to contrast BP's book themes with her real life. And that's all I'm going to say about that...right now. <tee hee>
Post by: fairanna on October 26, 2010, 06:54:38 PM
Post by: PatH on October 26, 2010, 09:08:00 PM
I took Excellent Women with me to the dentist's office this morning, and my first reaction is that she's VERY FUNNY. I hadn't even got out of the Introduction, which quotes her extensively, and was sitting there, giggling at frequent intervals, while the other person in the room glared at me--I guess there isn't much laughter in dentist's offices. It's quiet, understated, but boy, is it funny.
Post by: JoanP on October 26, 2010, 10:04:32 PM
Oops, I'd better clear things up in the heading, Pat! Pedln and I have been back and forth about how to handle the two books in a month discussion. (I guess I forgot where we had that discussion. Guess it wasn't here. We finally decided to start the first part of the month, the first ten days on Excellent Women. Let's take a big chunk, the first half, the first 13 chapters between Nov. 1 and Nov.5. If you think it's too long, we can speed it up. Let's see how it goes. We might do Quartet in Autumn differently - after we see how this goes. (It might be chaos - I hope not.
I'll put a schedule in the header in the morning. Thanks for asking. So glad you are enjoying the humor!
Callie, be sure to pipe up whenver you want - we are looking forward to hearing from "A Very Private Eye."
About "A Very Private Eye" for those of you who are wondering...
"The book spans the years between 1932, when Pym was at Oxford, and 1979, when she sadly died of breast cancer. Her sister, Hilary Pym, provides a biographical sketch of her early life. As the title of the book suggests, the material is arrange chronologically and drawn from Pym's diaries, notebooks, and letters."
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 27, 2010, 04:04:35 AM
CallieinOK - no, no - I wasn't criticising! Sorry if it sounded that way - I was writing late at night (by my standards) and just thinking about younger women that I know. When I was working I had wonderful trainee, Rachel, who was then about 24. There were also two other young women in the office - both early 20s - whose only interest in their lives (despite the fact that they were both qualified lawyers) was to get married to their live-in boyfriends, buy a house and have children. Rachel did have a nice boyfriend, but was very happy not to move in with him - she had her own flat and was not interested in settling down. We had many conversations about that, as I thought she was so right to have some independence first. She had gone out with another boy for 6 years previously and said that she now realised that if she had married him it would have been a terrible mistake, so she wasn't going to take the plunge any time soon. These girls are all different, aren't they? Although it's a shame that many of them still feel the need to conform.
Thinking about the women of my mother's generation, I think that the never married ones are, perhaps, less happy. My mother has one friend who seems to me to be quite bitter; the other thing I notice (from a distance) is that she gets very annoyed if anyone has to change their plans, wheareas I suppose if you have lived with someone and/or had children, you get used to that! However, another of my mother's friends lived with her sister all through their lives, and they got on like a house on fire and seemed fulfilled. Barbara Pym's novel, Some Tame Gazelle, features two sisters, Harriet and Belinda, who live together in small village - it's presumed to be based on BP and Hilary, and is a really wonderful, very funny, novel. At the end, after various shennanigans, they both settle back into comfortable spinsterdom, and realise that they are happier that way after all.
Got to dash - cat due at vets for yet more acupuncture!
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 27, 2010, 04:06:37 AM
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 27, 2010, 04:09:56 AM
Rosemary
Post by: fairanna on October 27, 2010, 09:35:56 AM
Considering how men have changed and marriage the same I am not sure some women who have very good jobs prefer the single life, You no longer feel you have to have an escort to go anywhere...Look at all the men in high positions and movie stars are having affairs or divorcing their wives and marrying younger women ...life has certainly changed since I was a young girl and I AM GLAD I was born and grew up when most women stayed single until they married ...off to read ......anna
Post by: bellemere on October 27, 2010, 12:32:04 PM
Yuk, yuk.
My friend made a conscious decision not to marry; she broke the hearts of at least two men I knew. Got a Master's degree in Math education, designed and patented teaching software, formed her own national consulting firm and today is VERY COMFORTABLE.
I have been meaning to count the number of times that Barbara uses the term "excellent woman or women" It reminds me of the way my son said he was wary of getting fixed up with a girl if she was described and a "beautiful person"
It seems to me that helping out at a church was one route to becoming an excellent woman. Arranging flowers, "doing the brasses"???, manning the tea urn at meetings, etc.
Post by: JoanP on October 27, 2010, 01:12:40 PM
Don't forget to count the times Pym uses the word "spinster" as you count the "excellent women"...
Before I forget - I stumbled over this list of 1000 must-read novels (http://blogs.knoxnews.com/books/2009/02/1000_novels_to_read_before_you.html) put out by the Guardian in the UK - down under Comedy - alphabetically to Pym...
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 27, 2010, 04:35:33 PM
I've also got a wonderful book called "The Ultimate Teen Book Guide", which gives you synopses of hundreds of books that teens might like - I have discovered some great things from delving into it.
In the post today I received the Slightly Foxed catalogue - they reprint "lost" works, and the trouble is, of course, that I want all of them, and they cost £15 each. They also publish a quarterly review that I keep thinking about subscribing to - maybe I'll ask for it for Christmas. I must admit that I always check the library catalogue before buying anything, but it's rare for our library to have these sort of books.
Rosemary
Post by: pedln on October 27, 2010, 11:16:17 PM
Quote
Do you remember the adjective you used to describe Quartet when you first read it? I really want to talk about what you meant then...JoanP
Yep. I remember, and I still think it is so.
PatH, JoanP and I are still talking about the schedule. We want to start out with Excellent Women, but at some point I hope we can compare the two. There are about twenty years between the two so shouldn’t we expect some difference in style, in characterization, attitudes? Or maybe not? We’ve never tried this type of discussion before (in my memory, anyway), so maybe it will just go with the flow.
Rosemary, I'd say that your Rachel has a very good head on her shoulders. Smart woman.
It’s interesting to read all your comments here about THEN and NOW. So many changes. So many choices. What brought it all about? The pill? Betty Friedan?
Post by: pedln on October 27, 2010, 11:26:21 PM
church
chapel
Catholic
Roman Catholic
Episcopal
Church of England
I thought Church of England and Episcopalians were the same, but is that so or are there differences? As one who was baptized a Lutheran, confirmed a Methodist, and now a Presbyterian, I don't know much about other denominations.
Post by: bellemere on October 28, 2010, 08:50:34 AM
There is some evidence that even in BP's time , there existed a suspician between the high and low congregations and between the Angilcans and Catholics. Dora's remarks on touring the
Catholic abbey with Mildred echo this, but Pym is gently poking fun at her dark surmises.
Also i have noted that when a Welsh character or a Yorkshire character appears, they are usually "chapel," with some exceptions. Such people were apt to complain if their pastor got too"high" and they didn't mean on marijuana.
Post by: ursamajor on October 28, 2010, 02:06:30 PM
Some Episcopalians consider themselves Catholic, so Roman Catholic means the church with a Pope. My kids used to sing a little song they learned at church camp to the tune of God Bless America...
I am an Anglican
I am P.E.
Neither high church
Nor low church
Apostolic and catholic and free
Not a Presby
Not a Luth'ran
Not a Baptist, white with foam
I am an Anglican
Just one step from Rome
I am an Anglican
Via media- boom, boom!
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 28, 2010, 04:38:30 PM
I agree that whenever chapel is mentioned in BP's novels, it's always associated with the servants or working classes. Most of the novels feature high church Anglicanism - this has many of the features of Roman Catholicism, such as calling the ministers priests, celibacy of the clergy (there is a priceless line in A Glass of Blessings, spoken by the rather camp male housekeeper, "Celibacy of the clergy has always been our motto!"), the priest taking confessions, etc. It is not, however, Roman Catholicism, and in many of the novels there are anxious whisperings about people "going over to Rome".
BP may be poking fun at Dora's "dark surmises" about the RC church, but only a few weeks ago. when I was sitting in our Church of Scotland (ie Presbyterian) congregation, I heard two women behind me muttering about it being "very Catholic" to have choral singing during the Communion - they were not happy. I am sorry to say the Scottish sectarianism is not confined to Glaswegian football teams, even today.
Rosemary
Post by: ursamajor on October 28, 2010, 04:59:48 PM
Post by: pedln on October 28, 2010, 09:15:02 PM
Post by: ursamajor on October 29, 2010, 09:40:10 AM
When we visited Ireland we attended services at the Church of Ireland. The Prayer Book was the same as we use here except there were two versions of the prayers for those in authority (the President here) - one version for the Irish Republic and the other for Northen Ireland, where they pray for the Queen.
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 29, 2010, 10:07:24 AM
No, Church of England vicars are not required to be celibate, but High Church Anglican priests often are - it's a sort of extreme version of Anglicanism, and you will see in BP novels that some of the High Churches advertise "Catholic privileges" (eg confession) but that does not mean Roman Catholic. Confusing? Surely not!!! :D
Rosemary
Post by: ursamajor on October 29, 2010, 02:57:58 PM
http://www.scotland.anglican.org/index.php/about/introduction/
Post by: JoanP on October 29, 2010, 08:34:48 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Dunfermline_Abbey_Geograph.jpg/248px-Dunfermline_Abbey_Geograph.jpg)
Post by: JoanP on October 29, 2010, 08:41:47 PM
Since we have a few days left - and some have not yet read the chapters - I'd like to shift the question in the header to Barbara Pym. We've been hearing how her books reflect her life - and this is a good example of that, isn't it?
7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church. Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it is now?
Let's pool what we know of Barbara Pym's upbringing - and also comment on the practice of religion in the fifties and now. In the UK - and in the United States.
Post by: bellemere on October 30, 2010, 11:16:32 AM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels.
| Discussion Schedule November 1 - 5 ~ Chapters 1 - 13 November 6 - 10 ~ Chapters 14 - 27 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/exwomencoversm.jpg) |
Some Topics from Excellent Women for Your Consideration and Discussion beginning Nov. 1:
1. From her portrayal of Mildred Lathbury, can you tell how Barbara Pym views the life of an unmarried woman, the spinster?
2. How does Mildred see herself? How old is she? Is she resigned to spinsterhood or is she still hopeful the right man will come along? At the start of the novel, do you think Mildred sees herself as one of the excellent woman of the parish?
3. What did you think of the male characters in Excellent Women? Were any of them comparable to Jane Austen's men? Were any of them interested in Mildred?
4. Do you find examples of Barbara Pym's Oxford education in her fiction? Does she flaunt it? Do you think Mildred attended university?
5. Barbara Pym's forte is said to be comedy. Would you say the same is true of Jane Austen? Will you share some examples from Excellent Women?
6. Will you note and share some of the cosy details characteristic of Pym's novels, especially the kitchen and cookery details?
7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church. Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it is now?
8.Finally, do you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women" of St. Mary's parish?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in August )
To my great disappointment, I read that the Barbara Pym Society is having their Annual Tea in Boston, next Saturday! I am actually making a bus trip to Boston for a long planned trip to the Salem Museum with my daughter to see the Treasures of the Forbidden City, a traveling exhibit. The Tea only costs ten dollars if you bring a "suitable tea cake" to share, and otherwise it's fifteen dollars. A smallprice to meet and talk with some Excellent Women. It is being held at the Church of the Advent (very high) from 3 to 5. I just can't make it, my bus for home leaves at 3:15. But supposing I were to go, what would you say was a "suitable tea cake"?
Maybe I will try to make the annual meeting at Harvard next spring. But this tea is so timely; what a pity.
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 30, 2010, 11:38:30 AM
Susan always posts great reports of the Pym conference itself - I am hoping to try to go myself next spring as it sounds brilliant, although obviously it is not a light undertaking from NE Scotland. If you can go, I'm sure you'd enjoy it, and I could ask Susan and other people in the US group to look out for you.
As to which cake - I was thinking along the lines of a coffee and walnut cake, or maybe Madeira with the proper candied peel). I'm sure seed cake features in at least one novel, although I've never had it myself. If anyone has the Constance Spry cookery book, I'm sure a lot of the recipes in there would be appropriate. Constance Spry was primarily a celebrated flower arranger, but she started the Cordon Bleu school in London with her great friend Rosemary Hume in 1945. The cookery book is a wonderful read - in their time they cooked for the Queen's coronation (origin, I believe, of Coronation Chicken) and her wedding. In amongst the chapters on things like The Cocktail Party, "rechauffees" and "pieces froides" (French was the language of smart cooking in those days), there is a section on English cakes, with recipes for such things as "Lorrimer Plum Cake", "Luncheon Cake", and Bath Buns. Buns from Boffins (- a famous Oxford cake shop) are frequently mentioned in BP's novels.
The BP Cookbook quotes an extract about afternoon tea from "Less Than Angels", and follows it with:
"This might also be a description of the tea ceremony organised by the BBC at our (ie Hilary and Barbara's ) cottage for a television programme called "Tea with Miss Pym" in June 1977, when Barbara was interviewed by Lord David Cecil (whilst trying to stop our cat Minerva from putting her paw in the milk jug)."
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 30, 2010, 11:46:24 AM
I don't think Mildred comes from much money - after all, she lives in what used to be called "reduced circumstances", and does have some sort of job - but her background will have been very middle class, and in those days the Church of England was very similar. Chapel was indeed a very different concept, but would not have been very common in suburban London. Also, it would have been perceived as a Welsh thing I think.
Got to stop, just realised have abandoned daughter at a birthday party and need to retrieve her!
Rosemary
Post by: fairanna on October 30, 2010, 11:56:16 AM
I have been reading the book and enjoying it very much,, When my husband died 16 years ago I couldnt sleep well so I went to the library and told th librarian I wanted some peacefu books to read..off hand I cant recall the name , but it was a British female author who wrote about this little town. It was interesting and peaceful and I read everyone of her books...They didnt give me bad dreams and only pleasent thoughts...and this book is doing the same...I am looking forward to our discussion and I will tell you how my black walnut pound cake comes out ...anna
Post by: CallieOK on October 30, 2010, 12:09:42 PM
I agree that "Excellent Women" has a similar tone.
However, I'm having difficulty staying with "A Very Private Eye". Reading BP's diary entries is a little like reading someone's Facebook posts. However, I'll keep going and, hopefully, find some things that will fit into the discussion.
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 30, 2010, 12:24:12 PM
That walnut cake sounds delicious - yes, let me know how it turns out, I will have a virtual (and less fattening) slice :)
Were the books you mention by "Miss Read"? She wrote a whole series set in the fictional village of, I think, Thrush Green.
I love peaceful books - Excellent Women is a good one, Quartet In Autumn is not so "peaceful". Some Tame Gazelle is a really lovely read in which (as my son used to shout when we heard a loud crash from upstairs) "nothing bad happened". Have you ever tried Alexander McCall Smith's books? He writes prolifically - may favourites are the Scotland Street books, but my mother really likes his No1 Ladies Detective Agency books, all set in Botswana, where he lived for a time. They have been televised with some success too. The Scotland Street ones are all set in Edinburgh. Another author who gives me great pleasure is EE Nesbit - her books were written for children, but they are wonderful to read as an adult, as you get all the subtexts that passed you by the first time. Her most famous book is The Railway Children, but my favourite is The Treasure Seekers, about some children who need to make some money to help their impoverished father.
Enjoy the cake!
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 30, 2010, 12:30:04 PM
If you can get hold of "A Lot To Ask", Hazel Holt's biography of BP published in 1990, you may find it an easier read. I enjoyed it very much.
I see you had the same idea as I did about Miss Read - I remember reading her books as a teenager, and loving them. My mother thought they were boring - but then, she stayed up at night to watch Psycho by herself shortly after my father died! We are not alike!
My elder daughter is not (yet) into Barbara Pym, but her comfort reading is Jilly Cooper's early novels - "Harriet" was the first, and I must say I also loved it when I decided to see what she was burying herself in. I think too many people write Jilly Cooper off as a chick lit writer - she is worlds away from much of the dross that is published "for women" today, and IMO a great writer.
Rosemary
Post by: bellemere on October 30, 2010, 04:45:39 PM
Keep in touch about the Pym society conference in the spring. If we don't sell our house (we kick that idea around) I may be able to offer you a private room and bath for part of your stay. It would be a pleasure.
Is now the right time to address the thoughtful questions of our leaders. ?
Post by: PatH on October 30, 2010, 11:13:28 PM
Post by: fairanna on October 31, 2010, 02:36:43 PM
Post by: bellemere on October 31, 2010, 05:00:57 PM
What would you ask these members if you were at the tea? Iwill ask on your behalf.
Regarding our questins, No. 1: Ithink Mildred regards her life wih equanimity. She is far from miserablek lonely or deptressed, but knows there doew exist something else. Her observaqtion of the Napiers' tumultuous marriage gives her one perspective. In the Vicar's courts;hiip of Allegra she observes the folly of a man beguiled by a woman with her own agenda. Every year a the annual lunch withDora's brother she reconfirms her feeling that he is not for her, but can't seem to entirely dump him. And her observation of Everard Bone puzzles her; he is sort of like the inscrutable Mr. Darcy in P and P. But his invitation to comeover and cook for him makes her visualize her possible life as Mrs. Bone. Not entirely satisfactory; a replica perhaps of the President's wife who sleeps through his speeches. But she too has ways in which she is set, and her independence is important to her. She is pretty contemporary in this, don't you think?
Post by: rosemarykaye on October 31, 2010, 05:12:44 PM
That is great, I really hope you enjoy the tea. My friend is called Susan Bramson, she is probably in her 60s and she lives in Philadelphia. I will e-mail her and ask her if she is going.
I will also find the coffee and walnut cake recipe and post it! Thanks for the offer of a bed next year - I will see how I get on with my plans and let you know, it's really kind of you to offer.
Post by: bellemere on October 31, 2010, 08:50:57 PM
I live about 80 miles from Boston, a 11/2 hr. bus ride.
I will be receiving the Society newsletter and will keep you all informed about their doings.
Post by: JoanP on October 31, 2010, 11:29:17 PM
I agree with others here - about the walnut cake - I think that would be glorious - I did find this recipe- doesn't look too complicated - though not sure how frosting would travel... what do you think, Anna Fair?
Black Walnut Cake (or English Walnut Cake) (http://www.tasteofhome.com/Recipes/Black-Walnut-Cake)
(http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TOH/Images/Photos/37/exps28488_RM10465D48A.jpg)
(http://hostedmedia.reimanpub.com/TOH/Images/Photos/37/exps28488_RM10465D48A.jpg)
and now the news that Rosemarykaye may journey across the ocean for the next Barbara Pym conference too! Please, will you post more details - where, when? Maybe more of us can attend with more planning time?
"I think religion was more important then, certainly in the UK." Rosemary, I was interested in your comment and have been thinking of how it is in the US today. I guess one can only speak from one's one experience. My first thought - the 30 year old young women in our parish today... there is a Youth Group...for young adults 20-30 and then another group 30+. The group seems to be singles doing fun things - ski trips, etc. - though they do participate in charitable ministries - refurbishing houses, etc. In co-ed groups. Older women in the parish take care of "jumble sales" - flowers for the altar, etc...
Now I think back to the 50's and 60's...again it was not the 30 year old single women doing the parish work. I'm not sure what to think of young Mildred spending so much of her time doing parish duties.
Post by: fairanna on October 31, 2010, 11:59:04 PM
with divorce and affairs which reading about you would begin to think NO ONE HAS A HAPPY MARRIAGE
and the ability to have very good jobs now which gives them a lot of freedom I dont think women nowadays regret staying single..that is the way I see it anyway ..love to all anna
Post by: JoanP on November 01, 2010, 12:20:36 AM
At last - November 1 - This discussion of Excellent Women is Officially OPEN for your comments!
Everyone is invited to drop in for some tea and biscuits - at any time of the day or night!
Let's begin with the first two questions - with comments about Mildred - What did you think of her? Is she someone you would consider for a friend? Does she seem to want or to need friends? Do you think she is happy with her life? Does she "regard her life wih equanimity" as Bellemere sees her? Does she see herself as one of the "excellent women" of the parish?
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 01, 2010, 04:34:20 AM
In the meantime, you may want to read a report written by the novelist Lauren Mechling of a BP conference she went to a few years ago - I know you are going to the tea party, but I thought you might want to have a look at it anyway. It's at:
www.cbc.ca/arts/books/pym.html
I hope that works. I found it when I googled "Tea with Miss Pym" in an effort to track down a copy of the TV interview I mentioned - failed in that, but found this instead.
Best wishes
Rosemary
Post by: ursamajor on November 01, 2010, 09:02:44 AM
Post by: JoanP on November 01, 2010, 09:46:39 AM
Post by: ursamajor on November 01, 2010, 10:04:54 AM
Post by: pedln on November 01, 2010, 11:00:50 AM
Anna, I read about all your activities on Saturday and I'm already tired, just thinking about it. Your energy level is fantastic.
This book does seem to reflect on Barbara Pym's life, especially her early years -- working for the Censorship bureau, joining the Wrens, being stationed in Italy, and a strong church background when growing up.
Does Mildred regard her life with equanimity, as Bellemere has stated? Yes, she has accepted it as her lot in life. At first reading, I thought she was lacking in self-esteem, that she considered herself unworthy or not-meant-to-have the things other women had. Now I'm not so sure because I can't find the specific instances that led me to feel that way.
Post by: fairanna on November 01, 2010, 02:49:46 PM
Post by: JoanK on November 01, 2010, 03:39:06 PM
I've alweays wondered what "fairy cakes" were -- there's a mystery story writer who always mentions them (Martha Grimes).
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 01, 2010, 06:05:59 PM
Your life sounds so full and you sound so interesting. I too had a good day today in that I met up with the mother of one of my son's best friends and we had coffee (and scones, whch were delicious) at the cafe run by our local Salvation Army - it has recently been completely refurbished and is a lovely place, always very busy. We had a great morning chatting about all sorts of thngs. This afternoon I was working, but it was so dark and miserable outside, and only the 2 of us there, so I have to admit we sat and watched QVC of all things (having a good laugh at the "ideas for Christmas gifts" - it is amazing how those presenters can talk anything up, they really are good at what they do), whilst having yet another good old chat. not a very productive day, but sometimes it's what you need.
I did come home and make a lemon tart for when my mother comes later this week, so have recovered a small ounce of virtue.
It's pouring with rain now, very dark and miserable, so I am looking forward to getting into bed with my book and my hot water bottle :)
Best wishes,
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 01, 2010, 06:11:42 PM
All this reminds me so much of Miss Lord, another brilliant Pym creation, who appears, I think, in No Fond Return of Love. Every day when she comes to Dulcie's house to clean, she describes in great detail what she has had, or is intending to have, for lunch. Things like "egg on Welsh" and "Russian cream" - some kind of concoction involving different coloured jelly. I think she would have liked butterfly cakes - she is very keen on "dainty things".
R
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 01, 2010, 06:38:19 PM
I wonder if her thinking and ways come to us through osmosis when we live alone for many years - I could relate and her values would bring a smile of knowing to my face while I read. I already have decided I too dislike the downstairs excellent woman Helena Napier - she is really a snob using reverse snobbery to carve out her place - she reminds me of a High School Cheerleader trying to promote how they are special.
OK, two questions for the English among us... what is a Wren officer and second, in the first few pages clothes are described that includes someone wearing a Jersey - I have a feeling a Jersey means an article of clothing that is not a typical word we use in the states to describe whatever it is this article of clothing.
As to Miss Lathbury's opinion of her spinsterhood - in some ways I think she finds it perplexing that society has earmarked slots of behavior for her status - I think she realizes without putting it in so many words that she is on the bottom rung of the power ladder and yet, I get the impression she does not see herself as bottom rung. I do not see her essentially as a women 'needy' for marriage however, I do see her as romantic and could only imagine a kind love that tumbled at her with all the romance of a Bronte novel.
Post by: pedln on November 01, 2010, 06:52:40 PM
One of the questions in the heading talks about Mildred's reduced circumstances. What I find surprising is that even so, she works only part time -- mornings only? And Rosemary's mention of Miss Lord reminds me that Mrs. Morris comes to Mildred twice a week, even though her flat is not very big. And I'm not quite sure I understand what a "distressed Gentlewoman" is, or just what Mildred's workplace does. Like a welfare office for the middle class?
And will someone please explain what Julian is doing when he is "distempering a room?" I gather he is painting it, but is there something more?
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 01, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
The Wrens were the women's part of the royal navy (in fact maybe they still are, I don't know). In the war they would have gone abroad with the men, but would not have had front line jobs. I get the impression that there was a definite pecking order between the services, and that is was quite posh to be a Wren (as opposed, for example, to being in the Land Army).
A jersey is a jumper or sweater - as in "put on your jersey" - I don't think many people would use that word now. I wonder if it came from the place name - maybe a certain kind of jumper was knitted in the Channel Islands? There is of course the Arran sweater from the island of that name - a huge white thing that makes me feel too hot and itchy just thinking about it.
When I first read EW I was a single woman living alone, and I actually knew a man so like Rocky Napier that it was uncanny. What's more, he had a girlfriend who was really quite like Helena. I saw myself very much in the Mildred position, as they would both come and offload on me - they were forever having break-ups - then of course they would forgive each other and I would be left alone with my solitary chop for tea, etc. The more I re-read EW, the less patience I have with Rocky - I don't mind Helena as much, although they both use Mildred mercilessly. They are both superficial, self-centered people who get away with it because they are attractive and reasonably wealthy. Everard is much better, although I won't say too much about him as he comes into his own more towards the end of the book.
Is it deliberate that once you have posted so many words the screen keeps rolling up and down and you can't see what you've written? Is it to stop us being too verbose?
Rosemary
Post by: JudeS on November 01, 2010, 07:21:14 PM
Post by: PatH on November 01, 2010, 07:31:10 PM
amazing - it is about nothing and yet, each chapter makes you want to know more -That's just how I felt too, Barb. She's like Jane Austen there--You read on eagerly, even when nothing much is happening.
I'm really enjoying all the quiet chuckles I'm getting out of the descriptions of minute aspects of living. The bland monochromatic dinner at the vicarage: "...a pale macaroni and cheese and a dish of boiled potatoes,...a blancmange or "shape" also of indeterminate colour....Not enough salt...and not really enough cheese."
"Just the kind of underclothes a person like me might wear, I thought dejectedly"
The fact that when Mrs. Napier finally contributes her share of toilet paper it is "an inferior brand".
You can say so much with so little.
Post by: Gumtree on November 02, 2010, 01:14:11 AM
I see Rosemary has filled everyone in about 'fairy cakes' - my mother often made them and seemed to have an inexhaustible variety of ways of decorating the top of the little cakes. Most of all I loved to watch as she turned them into 'butterfly' cakes. Good memories...
The term 'Jersey' is still used in Australia though less so than it used to be. Nowadays the term is usually 'jumper' or 'pullover' The jersey originated in the Channel Islands as did the 'guernsey' or 'gansey' and they were originally fishermen's sweaters knitted by their womenfolk -A tradition of knitting grew up all around the coast of England and each community and sometimes even a family would have their own patterns worked into the knitting. At one time a fisherman could be identified, as least as far as the locality he came from, by the pattern of the guernsey or jersey he was wearing. This often became important when men lost at sea whilst fishing might be washed ashore far from their own village - the pattern would tell where his family might be found. In Guernsey the fishermen's sweaters were made as early as Elizabethan times and there was quite an extensive trade in them especially to Newfoundland.
Rosemary mentioned the 'Aran' sweaters which are quite another thing -from the Aran Islands (in Ireland) and I must say they are not scratchy but beautifully soft and warm with complex patterns traditionally knitted in a natural creamy colour. The use of complex lace and cable patterns combined with simpler patterns creates a texture and dimension to the knitted fabric. A well knitted aran can be seen as an artwork and are often quite quite beautiful - I'm not sure that the ones I've knitted over the years were artworks but they have been very popular and well loved by my menfolk who enjoy Sunday sailing.
You really shouldn't get me started on traditional knitting.
Incidentally our sporting teams still use the term 'guernsey' - those chosen to play a match are said to have 'got a guernsey' - and on occasion the expression spills over into almost all walks of life
Post by: JoanP on November 02, 2010, 06:26:20 AM
There you are, Gum! So glad to hear that you've tracked down a copy of the book - happier still that you have joined us before you have it actually in hand. You always add another dimension to our discussions - being from the antipodes and all. ;)
Seriously, you do!
Quote
You really shouldn't get me started on traditional knittingI'm wondering how many of us gathered here are knitters? Is Mildred Lathbury a knitter? I do believe she is, but can't be certain.
Rosemary - you do too- add another dimension to our conversation! As I recall, you live in Scotland now - but came from England - did you say where? Did you grow up there? In the 50's? You must have grown up with very visible memories of WWII ! That is something that most have us have never experienced. Mildred attending a service in a church half in bombing rubble was a reminder to me of what everyday life must have been life in those post war years.
You asked about the jumping words or rolling screen - this sounds as if it may be a compatability issue. (There is NOTHING to stop us from being verbose here! :D
Try this -
PROBLEM WITH REPLY BOX JUMPING
Apparently jumping around is a known IE8 issue with the post-box after you paste.
The remedy is to "Switch your browser to run in "Compatability mode." When a site is open in the IE8 browser there is a button to the right of the address bar that looks like a broken page. Do you see it? Click on that. It will turn blue-ish. Warning - don't do this in the middle of a reply post or you will lose your work as it changes mode.
Jude - JoanK that's such good news that you have located one - or both of the Pym too!. We look forward to your insights...it won't take long to catch us - just don't rush it.
And Welcome to you, Barbara! I was thinking the other day how Pym's eye for detail resembles Poetry..."saying so much with so little," as PatH puts it - And we have BOTH you and Fair Anna with us in this discussion which underlines that thought.... Again, Welcome!
So many good observations posted here yesterday-each worthy of more conversation. We'll be on the road this morning - am writing this from the motel this morning while my driver gets his much needed rest. I can't wait to get into it with you later today...
Post by: JoanP on November 02, 2010, 06:57:34 AM
Quote
"You can say so much with so little."PatH - thank you for pointing out examples of this - I hope you will add to this list! Pat mentions blancmange the "shape" of indeterminate colour. How do you imagine "blancmange"? I think of baby food - was it called "junkit"? Kind of a bland pudding - served as a dessert - to little ones. Can someone find a recipe? I definitely plan to make that- tomorrow.
Mention of these rather bland foods - mac and cheese, blancmange - these are comfort foods, aren't they? More for older folks, or babies -or those in need of comfort...
Do you keep forgetting Mildred's age? She's only 30 years old! Does she have friends her own age? Are the "excellent women" of the parish other unmarried women who are Mildred's age? She refers to herself as a "spinster" on a number of occasions - who is counting? - can you cite any of them? What is the tone of these comments I feel she needs a friend - and Mrs. Napier doesn't seem to fit the bill...
You all seem to agree that Mildred is content or at least satisfied with her life as it is now... "She has accepted that this is what her life will be." (Is this before or after she meets Mr. Napier?)
Her part-time job interests me - what is it that she does for these "distressed Gentlewoman"? Mildred is not one of them, I take it?
Here's a question, a bit personal - can you relate at all to Mildred? Do you understand her?
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 02, 2010, 10:10:46 AM
Arrowroot blancmange, which requires milk, arrowroot, sugar and lemon rind or vanilla, and
Blancmange (cheap), which calls for sugar, milk, lemon rind, bay leaves and "Swinborne's isinglass or gelatine".
If anyone wants full details, just let me know!
I think this kind of bland and boring food was endemic in the UK in the post war period. Eventually Elizabeth David came along and introduced food from places like Italy, but although my mother-in-law (relatively wealthy, very well educated) would have had her books, my own mother would have regarded them with great suspicion - we were, for example, never allowed to have garlic, peppers, most spices (apart from ginger), pasta other than macaroni, or cheese that smelled of anything at all, in the house. When I first went to France in the late 1970s, I had never had such amazing food as that cooked by my penfriend's mother. I brought back goat's cheese, nectarines, etc - and they were all swiftly consigned to the bin, the cheese taking the first hit as it "makes the fridge stink".
Will write more later - off to vet's again now!
R
Post by: bellemere on November 02, 2010, 11:08:48 AM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 02, 2010, 12:29:23 PM
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THE COOK
A cook they had with them, just for the nonce,
To boil the chickens with the marrow-bones,
And flavour tartly and with galingale.
Well could he tell a draught of London ale.
And he could roast and seethe and broil and fry,
And make a good thick soup, and bake a pie.
But very ill it was, it seemed to me,
That on his shin a deadly sore had he;
For sweet blanc-mange, he made it with the best
Looks like blanc-mange has been around historically for a long time if was listed as a skill by Chaucer.
I am remembering Bavarian Cream which was a special treat that my mother prepared only a few times however, the closest thing to Blancmange I can remember is packaged vanilla puddings where we just added milk and stirred over the stove - thicker than a custard, neither of which has any almond flavoring which is listed as in ingredient in some form or other in the recipes in my collection of cookbooks. All these milk products and recipes are out of my kitchen - some years ago found that my tummy rebelled against any lactose product.
In the story I am thinking this is another way that Barbara Pym is establishing a class of folks on the edges of the upper class. Remembering from Jane Austin's stories the clergy were often younger sons who did not inherit the family estate but were given a 'living' and so they would know about the table at an upper class home but would not have the means to keep up the lifestyle and table of the upper class.
Reading about Blancmange and its history it appears to have been at first popular in England with the upper class and so I am thinking since this is a forsaken looking blancmange it is part of the visual that strengthens the picture of her genteel companions who know about upper class style living but are not able financially to bring it off with the panache of the upper class. I am also thinking this is helping us see 'class' as in values and morals - Rocky and Helena have money but Helena especially shows little 'class' and here Miss Lathbury even can recognize a tawdry example of blancmange.
Post by: ursamajor on November 02, 2010, 02:59:36 PM
Fairy cakes
8 tablespoons butter
2/3 Cup castor or superfine sugar
2 eggs
1 cup flour
1/2 teaspoon baking powder
milk, if necessary
Lemon juice, almond flavoring, vanilla essense, or dried fruit to taste
Preheat oven to 425 F. Cream butter and sugar, then beat in the eggs, 1 at a time. Sift together the flour and baking powder and add to the butter, adding milk if necessary to make a soft dough. Add the flavoring of your choice and drop by the teaspoonful into small greased muffin tins or molds and bake 20 minutes.
Post by: pedln on November 02, 2010, 03:36:10 PM
Bellemere’s reference to the Puerto Rican blancmange brought back memories – it was jiggly, yet firm, a stand-alone “white food.”
After googling, it seems that all blancmanges have geletin, some kind of milk, usually some almond flavoring, and very definitely a history. The article below offers a recipe and some tasting experiences.
Tasting Blancmange (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/magazine/24Food-t.html)
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Bloop! went the blancmanges as they flopped onto plates. As we tasted them, going from the all-milk version to the half-gelatin one, you could see the evolution toward today’s form of milk pudding, panna cotta, which is made primarily with cream but is looser and lighter, more custard than sculpture. For us, the full-gelatin milk blancmange was a bit like eating a rubber ball — it didn’t so much melt in your mouth as ricochet around it.
Quote
For some reason the Puerto rican diet is almost as bland as the English.
Not quite :D
Post by: JoanP on November 03, 2010, 08:21:06 AM
"The "whitedish" (from the original Old French term blanc mangier) was an upper-class dish common to most of Europe during the Middle Ages."
Rosemary describes blancmange as "a regular pudding in my youth, but it was made out of a packet mix. This kind of bland and boring food was endemic in the UK in the post war period."
- This sounds very much like the "Junket" we had as children - during those post-war years. Does this package look familiar to you?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/93/Junket_%28dessert%29.jpg/220px-Junket_%28dessert%29.jpg)
"For the majority of the 20th Century, in the eastern United States junket was often a preferred food for ill children, mostly due to its sweetness and ease of digestion.
By the mid-20th century it was little eaten except by convalescing children and in south-western England.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junket_(dessert)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Blancmange_on_plate.jpg/200px-Blancmange_on_plate.jpg)
Blancmange - enjoy! It looks like Flan to me...Ursa - I'm really interested in the Cookbook - the one co-authored by Hilary Pym. A question - Are fairy cakes just another name for cupcakes? (The name "fairy cakes" is so much more interesting, don't you think?) Do you know whether Hilary Pym ever married? Or did she and Barbara always live together after Barbara's stint in the WRENS?
So where were we in Excellent Women? Mildred Lathbury- not a child, but a young woman, 31 years old - stilll on this bland diet which she has probably been eating since a child?
I think it's time for her to experience life, don't you? Enter...Rocky!
Let's talk about Mildred and men today - she's 31 years old. Has she had suitors in previous years? I don't remember reading about them. Do you think that she showed interest in Julian - before the Napiers entered the picture? What did you think of Julian? Let's talk about Mildred and men today - Mildred seems to have romantic notions about Rocky even before he enters the picture...
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 03, 2010, 10:00:50 AM
I do have the cookbook; it is full of quotations from the novels and then the recipes for the dishes themselves, although there is also a fair sprinkling of things Barbara or one of her characters might have eaten - in the BP group we can get quite obsessed with imagining what Mildred, Wilmet or Dulcie might have done or said, and we often quote little Pym moments that we have enjoyed during our days (oh yes, we are quite eccentric ;) )
I don't think Mildred has had many boyfriends - there is the long abandoned idea of a relationship with Dora's brother (he is a great cameo part, don't you think?), and references, I think, to a few curates, but nothing much really. Mildred is now 31, so presumably the war was ongoing when she was in her 20s - I was about to say that meant there weren't many men around, but my mother was 18 when the war ended in 1945, and she and her sisters seem to have had a huge choice of men in London, - soldiers on leave, Americans here with their forces, etc. I don't think Mildred is at all interested in Julian - she is far too smart for him, and although she is quite nice about him I think she sees him as fundamentally wet -- which indeed he soon proves to be. She feels resigned to being on her own, but in many ways she likes it.
One of the great things about BP is that she often re-introduces her characters as small parts in her other novels. Thus we do eventually find out what happened to Mildred - I will say no more!
Rosemary
Post by: Gumtree on November 03, 2010, 10:02:08 AM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels.
| Discussion Schedule Excellent Women: *November 1 - 5 ~ Chapters 1 - 13 *November 6 - 10 ~ Chapters 14 - 27 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/exwomencoversm.jpg) |
Some Topics from Excellent Women for Your Consideration and Discussion beginning Nov. 1:
1. From her portrayal of Mildred Lathbury, can you tell how Barbara Pym views the life of an unmarried woman, the spinster?
2. How does Mildred see herself? How old is she? Is she resigned to spinsterhood or is she still hopeful the right man will come along? At the start of the novel, do you think Mildred sees herself as one of the excellent woman of the parish?
3. What did you think of the male characters in Excellent Women? Were any of them comparable to Jane Austen's men? Were any of them interested in Mildred?
4. Do you find examples of Barbara Pym's Oxford education in her fiction? Does she flaunt it? Do you think Mildred attended university?
5. Barbara Pym's forte is said to be comedy. Would you say the same is true of Jane Austen? Will you share some examples from Excellent Women?
6. Will you note and share some of the cosy details characteristic of Pym's novels, especially the kitchen and cookery details?
7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church. Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it is now?
8.Finally, do you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women" of St. Mary's parish?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in August )
Still on the blancmange/junket junket - they are each quite different. We had them both during my childhood - chiefly served with poached stone fruit as a light dessert during summer. Can't remember how my mother made blancmange but junket was made using rennet dissolved in warmed milk and often flavoured with honey and topped with finely grated nutmeg.
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 03, 2010, 02:19:58 PM
Mildred is intelligent, kind, knowing and genteel seemingly content with her life - I see her immature in her love life more like a young teen who is flattered and turns red if she thinks a boy/man is attractive or, if he is kind or especially, if he appears to show in interest in her which she interprets as a love interest. Mildred must have led a very sheltered life
There was a phrase poking around in my head and sure enough, looked it up and yes, there was a book, The Rector's Daughter written in 1924 - Mildred does have many of the qualities of Mary Dedmayne however, I cannot imagine Barbara Pym would borrow hook line and sinker the experience of Mary with her Robert as a model for Mildred - and so as a reader I too am as content as Mildred is characterized therefore, I am not imagining a final chapter where Mildred becomes an 'Excellent Woman'.
Post by: JoanK on November 03, 2010, 03:20:28 PM
I can also see why Pym is compated to Austen -- the small details, the sense of humor. But she really isn't like Austen -- as one of you commented, Austen's characters have a passion, always under the surface but there.
The only books I can think of that have a similar tone were written later -- Alexander McCall smith's Philosophy club series. I wonder if he borrowed the tone from Pym.
The thing that stands out for me beyond the way Pym draws us into Mildred's world, the delicious details, and the humor, is how little Mildred thinks of herself. She has a life full of friends and meaningful work (although sounding like the life of a much older woman) but she keeps putting herself down as worthless (in contrast to McCall-Smith's protagonist, living a similar life, but content with it). This, of course, is the way society sees her, but doesn't have to be the way she sees herself.
Even her neighborhood, which she loves, she keeps putting down. She loves it, but it's not good enough for anyone else. So we don't really get to feel the neighborhood, or see why she loves it.
I hope the ending will be that Mildred sees that her neighborhood, and she, herself, are worthy of love.
Post by: PatH on November 03, 2010, 04:13:08 PM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 03, 2010, 04:39:25 PM
The one connection I felt or at least the mental chatter she uses to pass negative judgement wasn't present during her relationship with Mrs. Morris. Then I thought I wonder if that has to do with station in life - Mrs. Morris, a cleaning 'maid' allows Mildred not to be on the lowest rung of the ladder. And then Helena shows a recognition of Mildred's coup when she asks her the favor of having Mrs. Morris clean the communal bathroom.
Mildred seems to feel 'separate from' - not abandoned - she knows she is not an 'Excellent Woman' and therefore, not worthy of the regard that accompanies the excellent women. Mildred makes her limiting choices because she sees herself as less than - Yes, great, your idea for her self-awareness and self-respect is so right-on however, I wonder if we can say that now or, would we agree with Mildred's choices if we were living back in the 1950s.
The 50s was a time when many women attended college or university to obtain their MRS rather then a BA or BS. When being married was the only goal for young women. In fact, when you think it is amazing to read about a women who sounds almost sanguine with her life by putting her choices in as realistic tone as possible while nodding to societies opinions at the time.
I see the foods mentioned like the neighborhood described are all on the edge of respectability - attempting to be upper class but not quite making it which would be the foil for not being among the excellent. I see it all as a piece describing the temperament of Miss Lathbury.
Hmmm a thought, I wonder if this story is all tongue and cheek - according to Roget's the opposite of excellent is: poor, inferior, undesirable, unfit, unsuitable, troublesome, objectionable, inept, clumsy, awkward, disadvantaged, unwieldy, unprofitable.
All these words fit Mildred and yet, there is something there that shows her on the edge of gentility and satisfied with herself. As a 'poor, inferior' etc. personality her gentility is also a 'poor' attempt that is inferior and no longer desirable by the 'moderns' therefore, she borders on being seen as troublesome, objectionable definitely unsuitable except, she does have a useful Mrs. Morris in her life - again, on the edge. And so, I am looking for this story to show her tip one way or the other off that edge - to sink into the world that measures class and genteelness, if there is such a word as compared to being her own women proud of her life choices.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 03, 2010, 04:54:13 PM
Rosemary
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 03, 2010, 05:39:35 PM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 03, 2010, 06:17:28 PM
The Isobel Dalhousie books do have vague detective story plots, but they really are very vague indeed, and are in many ways just a vehicle for McCall Smith to write about different aspects of the city. I really don't think anyone would read them for the detective content - the enjoyable bits are all about Isobel's life mixing with the good and great of Edinburgh - McCall Smith is an inveterate name dropper and knows just about everyone in Edinburgh, but you forgive him because he writes so well. But as I said earlier, I still get irritated by Isobel - her life is just too charmed. The woman has a daily housekeeper, even when she is living alone and presumably not making anything dirty! Despite all this, I still find myself looking forward to the next one. McCall Smith just has a way of writing that I find irresistible, and I love hearing him on the radio reading his own work - he even laughs at his own jokes, and seems to enjoy it all so much.
Rosemary
Post by: JudeS on November 03, 2010, 11:59:16 PM
Both my parents are British and seven of my fathers siblings and ten of my Mothers went through WW2 and sent us letters about it. My mother always read me the letters no matter how young I was. I grew up thinking that England is a sad place, ravaged by war. And indeed there were 580,000 thousand dead and wounded (soldiers) plus 60,000 civilians killed from the bombing. All my relatives lived in London.
There were not too many young men around after the war. If Mildred is 31 in the book she spent her young adult life ,19-25,during the war years. Perhaps just being left alive was enough for her though she doesn't mention that. Her world of genteel drabness is still not as bad as the war years when shortages of everything was rampant.
She grew up a "church child" and it seems never to occur to her to rebel against her upbringing. She seems to take what comes as her due and expects nothing better. So far though the book is tinged with humor (I can't say funny) it seems a very sad life our heroine lives and most sadly expects no better for her lonely self.
Perhaps the author is saying "This is what a loveless life is like."
Post by: Babi on November 04, 2010, 09:02:07 AM
and have a lot of catching up to do, but I very much like what I've read so far.
Please clarify...are you discussing the two books simultaneously? If not, which one are you
on now? If so, how do you keep them distinct?
Post by: JoanP on November 04, 2010, 09:40:41 AM
Jude, delighted to have you with us this morning. Thanks you for reminding us of what life must have been like in post-war London. Every once in a while we get a glimpse of the city - like the Lenten service in the church, half of which is full of bombing rubble. ( Rosemary, were you living in London before moving to Scotland?)
Jude's post adds to Pym's somewhat puzzling portrayal of Mildred - as one of the "excellent women" of the parish. Though the book's title is "Excellent Women" - this is really Mildred's story, isn't it? As you see it , the book is "tinged with humor - it seems a very sad life our heroine lives and most sadly expects no better for her lonely self.
Perhaps the author is saying "This is what a loveless life is like."
In a number of instances, Mildred refers to herself as a "spinster" - she refers to the "elderly ladies and dim spinsters" She refers to unmarried women with no ties who could very well become unwanted." "Not really first in anyone's life.
So she's not a married woman -and as Barbara describes her - "she knows she is not an 'Excellent Woman' and therefore, not worthy of the regard that accompanies the excellent women."
PatH - I understand what you are saying here -
" I'm having a hard time deciding how much it's Mildred thinking little of herself and how much it's Mildred seeing what the world must think of her and quietly laughing at it."
JoanK -
" She has a life full of friends and meaningful work (although sounding like the life of a much older woman) but she keeps putting herself down as worthless (in contrast to McCall-Smith's protagonist, living a similar life, but content with it). This, of course, is the way society sees her, but doesn't have to be the way she sees herself."
PatH - I understand what you are saying here -
" I'm having a hard time deciding how much it's Mildred thinking little of herself and how much it's Mildred seeing what the world must think of her and quietly laughing at it."
In a humorous aside, she observes - "virtue can be a little depressing." The question occurs - does Mildred even want to be one of the "excellent women?"
I'm seeing Mildred as lonely, but this seems to be a state in which she has become accustomed -
She has carved out a life for herself in which she is relatively content. Until Mrs. Napier moves into her flat.
"I am not imagining a final chapter where Mildred becomes an 'Excellent Woman'" Barbara
Or would she rather be swept off her feet - and married - a happy Jane Austen ending? Does she have opportunities? How do you see Mildred? Truly content with her life as it is...or no?
Post by: bellemere on November 04, 2010, 09:41:01 AM
WWII. With fewer men, there must have been a big growth spurt in the spinster population.
Rockingham is admittedly a shallow person, but gets away with it by being "charming" so Mildred tends forgive him. he gets her involved in his messy marriage , to her distaste, especially the arguments over furniture. Julian is the secret hearthrob of excellent women, but is fatally flawed by a weakness for Allegra's schemes. , William was stodgy and dependable, but she finds his devotion to his office window pigeons to be both endearing an pitiable. Everard displays some interest but loses points when his dinner invitation obviously includes cooking the roast for him.
With the end of WW11, the "upper " classes also waned and Everard's mother is a wonderful example of the English eccentric. In fact, she is the one who most reminds me of an Austen character, or even a Dickens character, sorry, so bad at remembering names.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 04, 2010, 11:59:06 AM
I was born in 1958, ie after the war, but I do remember that when we took the train in and out of the centre, there were still lots of old bomb sites, and also many "prefabs" - cheap little houses put up after the war as emergency measures - they were supposed only to last couple of years but wree still there 20 years later.
My mother was born in London and still lives there. She was evacuated during the war, first to the south coast (good thinking, government! it was the first place to be bombed!), then to rural Wales. She came from a very poor and not very happy family, and she had a wonderful time in Wales and didn't want to come back. However, her mother came and took her back to London just as the blitz started; for many years she couldn't understand this, but eventually she found out that her mother had to pay the host family for having her, and they simply couldn't afford it any more. As a result my mother and her sisters (she is the youngest of 5) were in London throughout the Blitz and the restof the war. She has a vivd memory of coming out of the Saturday morning "pictures" on top of Eltham Hill and seeing a ring of fire around London.
There is a lovely novel by Nina Bawden called Carrie's War about some children who are evacuated to Wales and have a much less enjoyable time than my mother did, but eventually meet some very interesting characters - it was televised many years ago and I can still remember Dorothy Tutin (I think it was her) and her wonderful portrayl of Hepsibah.
Rosemary
Post by: JudeS on November 04, 2010, 12:48:16 PM
I saw Carrie's War and it is indeed an excellent film.
Bellemere
I also thought of Dickens while reading this but I can't figure out why. Strangely, Uriah Heap and his "I am a humble person",
comes to mind.
Does our heroine have a different metabolism than other people? She seems to to have an ascetics lackof appetite for food (except when a man friend, buys her food in a restaurant) , is not disturbed by bad dreams or carnal deaires. She has an observing eye, which William says , is a reason not to marry. Well, I have read only nine chapters so I have hopes that the book will gather speed as I continue.
Post by: fairanna on November 04, 2010, 03:40:50 PM
If there hadnt been any like the Napier's to change her life ..she most likely would'nt have have changed....I love her "quotes" some very familiar to me. I just love who she is and how she acts and reacts to what life has handed her...and in many ways I find her very adventuresome I LOVE HER>>>anna
Post by: JoanK on November 04, 2010, 03:55:36 PM
I agree with you completely, especially about her unbelievable experiencesas a mother (although I deliberately mentioned the first book, before McCall Smith's heroine got a lover). And the big difference that, even before lover, she seems very happy with herself. It is something about the style of writing that strikes me as similar, more than the characters: the absobtion in a world of small, everyday details. Except for the differences in self-worth of the characters, reading the two book has much the same "feel" for me.
Your description of the differances makes me wonder about money in "EW". We are told that Mildred has a small income, and it's not mentioned again. But I begin to wonder how much she feels her life constrained by that small income. There is one scene where she buys stuff for dinner, then talks about how boring her dinner is (fish without sauce -- she doesn't deserve sauce). I got very mad at her at this point -- if she thinks this is boring, why didn't she buy something else. Or make sauce! Or go out to eat! Is it lack of selfesteem, or money.
Post by: ursamajor on November 04, 2010, 05:04:55 PM
As to Mildred's contentment with her lot, I think many unmarried people feel that way. There are important gains in living alone. I remember when I was taking a college class in sex education (for my sins, for failing physical education in an earlier incarnation) an unmarried woman in the class, also in her 40s, said to me in the restroom about sex that "It is just such a small part of life.." She had a career in some church related area and was perfectly satisfied with her life. I thought of my husband and five children (still at home at the time) and thought "It's all in your point of view."
Post by: JoanK on November 04, 2010, 06:36:03 PM
It seems that dhe's one of those people who is happiest living alone: and yet she's always feeling sorry for herself for being alone. Which way will she go?
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 04, 2010, 09:23:47 PM
Post by: nlhome on November 04, 2010, 10:14:52 PM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 05, 2010, 12:03:20 AM
And then I thought - she is in the middle of great diplomacy - it is all according to who the characters are as it if the diplomatic event is worthy of the news, history books or the makings of a novel. And then it hit - and sure enough this to me is funny - Remember Nixon and Khrushchev's Kitchen diplomacy - of course then, likening someone to Khrushchev would have been terrible - a mark of outrageous disrespect - but now, years later the outcome no longer matters so that we can review the event like a play rather than an event that would affect world politics - so here is the dialogue from that famous Kitchen debate - Now doesn't Khrushchev sound just like our Mildred?
http://www.watergate.info/nixon/1959_nixon-khrushchev-kitchen-debate.shtml
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 05, 2010, 02:15:29 AM
I liked Barbara Pym's attempt at including a bit of Mildred in the middle of a Stream-of-consciousness - I have this bit of Rebecca West calligraphy framed in my work room since the mid-eighties - difficult to remember now what a revolutionary idea this was for me back then - never the less, it is what I hope that Mildred would hang in her kitchen while she could still benefit for the quote... which goes...
I myself have never
been able to fin
out precisely What
feminism is
I only know that
people call me
a feminist
whenever I express
sentiments
that differentiate me
from a doormat.
I saw flashes of Mildred capable of being her own person when she turned down Everard's invitation to dinner that she assumed meant she was to cook and when she saw an advantage to herself of learning to index Everard's book. However, by and large Mildred is simply a good woman of her times that today we would label as 'the perfect daughter' therefore, needing at the least therapy to change her behavior and outlook. But then maybe she was being less of a doormat than I envisioned - she saw the risks of marriage and this way had things on her terms with more than one man - no intimacy but then who knows how her life-story would continue.
Post by: salan on November 05, 2010, 05:53:46 AM
Yeah, my copy of Quartet arrived yesterday. I am almost finished with EW.
Sally
Post by: Babi on November 05, 2010, 09:13:11 AM
I think it's perfectly natural that Mildred could be contented living alone, and still have times when she felt lonely. I lived alone for many years. Now that I am older, tho, having a daughter living with me is a tremendous blessing. Changes happen, and Mildred is adjusting to some of those changes. There's bound to be some ambiguity there. I'll be
interested to see how it finally settles out for her.
Post by: bellemere on November 05, 2010, 09:14:08 AM
Aussies out there. On page 34 of my edition of EW, Mildred is preparing a "foreign egg" for her lunch. What the ???????
Post by: JudeS on November 05, 2010, 12:52:23 PM
D:....."We've had a lucky escape, if you ask me."
M: A lucky escape ? I thought sadly. But would we have escaped, any of us, if we had been given the opportunity to do otherwise?
"Perhaps it's better to be unhappy than not to feeel anything at all", I said.
"Oh Love, they wrong thee much
That say thy sweet is bitter....."
Dora looked at me in astonishment.
So Mildred does not accept her role as a spinster so easily and she definitely has second thoughts about missing out on love.Does this reflect the thoughts of the author....I wonder. This little sequence gave me the impetus to look at the book
not as a positive spin on spinsterhood and accepting your lot in life but seeing it as a sorry tale of those who have not loved and lost but those who have never,or can't love.
I am only up to chapter 16 but will finish the book today. Perhaps the prism of my thoughts will turn again by tomorrow.
Post by: JoanP on November 05, 2010, 01:22:45 PM
Most of them, Mildred included, would rather have married. But would they have married anyone who asked, for the sake of being married? Even unhappily married?
Jude posts the telling passage - in which Mildred considers whether it is better to be unhappy than not to feel anthing at all. When Mildred and Dora attend their school reunion, Mildred observes that the ring on the left hand defined success...although she noted that imagined husbands were more interesting than they probably were. I can't imagine Mildred marrying someone she does not find interesting - just to be married.
It's becoming clearer that it's the plain women who are being left behind - the attractive ones get all the attention. Helena, Allegra Gray - Notice that Mildred is dressing better now, paying more attention to her appearance. Is it to attract a husband - or to attract Rocky and outshine Helena? But Rocky is not even a remote possibility. He makes her feel good about herself - that's the thing. He makes her feel witty and interesting - unlike the other excellents.
But life goes on - the many unmarrieds find work, and interests to fill their days. Some of them find contentment. Even Mildred.
Bellemere, your question about the "foreign egg" took up most of my time in a search this morning. Don't you find it interesting that Mildred cooks such bland fare for herself - yet she falls asleep reading exotic cookery books. Do you think a foreign egg is imported? I did find mention of a "foreign egg whisk" - but nothing to describe what one would use it for...
Are you all set for TEA with the Pym Society, Bellemere? Have we helped with any questions for you to take to the gathering?
Back in a few minutes - with some biographical information on the author...
Post by: JoanP on November 05, 2010, 01:51:23 PM
I agree,we need a new definition for "happy" perhaps - as you said - Mildred's isn't so much a sad life as one of lower expectations. - Her story is stream-of-consciousness, isn't it...I think Barbara talked about that. We know what's going on in her head. I don't want to talk about the end of the book just yet - there is a surprise that Rosemary hinted at earlier - but let's wait until the end when everyone one has finished.
Have you finished the first thirteen chapters? On the last page of chapter 13, we see Mildred tidying her belongings. All these years she has kept the framed portrait of the young man, "I once imagined myself to be in love with." It didn't work out - "he talked mostly about life and himself - never about her." But did you notice that it was the young man who broke it off - met someone else while on a holiday. Mildred was 19 years old at the time. We are told that he broke it off - "not gently."
When Barbara Pym was 19 - a student in Oxford, she had a romance with another student - Henry Harvey... It was this young man she would later refer to as "the love of my life." He too broke of their relationship for someone else - though they did remain friends for life. This same early lost love finds its way in all of her ten novels.[/b]
Oh and here's another romance - after her years at Oxford, Pym became a WREN, had a romance - which ending badly too. I'm wondering if the young man wasn't the Rocky prototype. I'm glad Mildred is on to Rocky - though he sure had her going for a while.
Rosemary[/b], I'm writing this from memory - please feel free to correct if not accurate.
Pym's heroines seem to be seeking this lost youthful romantic love - Is this why they say you never really get over your first love? (Did you?)
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 05, 2010, 01:56:32 PM
I have asked my mother, who was 18 when the war ended in 1945, and she says there was no shortage of men in London whatsoever.
I think Mildred is one of those women who just aren't sufficiently assertive, attractive, glamorous or whatever to "get a man" at a young age. there are still plenty of women like that - there are a couple who work in our local library, and (although I know one shouldn't make snap judgements based on appearances) you can tell that they have not much idea about clothes, and are quite quiet people. In the first "round" of matchmaking, it is always the pretty, confident, not to mention acne-free, girls who are snapped up. This does not necessarily mean that their partnerships will last, but I do think that the others (ie girls like me!!) meet their partners later. Of course they are likely to suffer from low self-esteem - the entire western world revolves around appearances and success, and these girls know early on that they are not considered worthy by boys at school, etc. It reminds me of Janis Ian's song "Seventeen" - my friends and I used to feel it had been written specifically about us!
I think Mildred is very wise and knows what is going on, but feels that that is just the way of the world. I also feel that she in some ways enjoys her own peace and quiet. I used to think that Everard was appalling in asking her to come to his flat to cook some meat, but I have come round to the idea that it is just his rather awkward way of asking her out. Everard is a good egg - and speaking of which -
a foreign egg is, I think, simply an imported one. During the war there were no eggs (viz the book "Few Eggs and No Oranges", which is a wonderful record of day to day life in Notting Hill during the war). There was powdered egg, which was by all accounts horrible, and presumably after the war foreign egges were imported but were considered inferior.
I have a copy of the Stork War Time Cookery Book - (Stork is a brand of margarine) - it has lots of things to do with powdered egg, and also what to do with your pudding if there is an air raid and you have to turn off the oven in mid-cook to go to the air raid shelter.
Rosemary
Post by: Gumtree on November 05, 2010, 02:03:51 PM
My copy has a short, rather bland introduction by Alexander McCall Smith in which he makes the well worn Jane Austen/Pym comparisons about using a small canvas to write about small things in small lives.
He also makes the point that after a period of neglect, Pym's work was championed by Phillip Larkin and David Cecil writing in the Times Literary Supplement, which rather reminded me of George Eliot's reputation being resurrected to such good effect by F.R. Leavis - though Leavis didn't use the TLS. McCall Smith says that the Pym revival was in 1977 and that since then interest in her work has never waned and that her reputation continues to grow.
So how come I had such a time locating a copy of the books here in the antipodes.
Anyway, I've started the book and should catch up in a day or so.
So far as 'foreign eggs' are concerned - I can only guess they were sourced from abroad but the question is from where? Perhaps even Australia- our trade with UK in goods was immense until EU came into effect and Britain dropped our existing trade agreements.
Post by: JoanK on November 05, 2010, 03:05:02 PM
I read too fast. Now, I want to read it again and pick up all the little things I missed.
SPOILER ALERT: don't read the following if you haven't finished te book.
The world has changed a lot since the fifties. When Mildred is asked to do substantial professional work, she doesn't even think to ask "How much do you pay?" It never even occurs to her.
It reminds me of when I was in charge of the speakers bureau for the local chapter of NOW. We charged a (rather small) amount for a speaker. The Lions Club called and asked for a speaker. I told him the fee (I think it was $25, I don't remember, but certainly an amount the Lions Club could afford). He said that they usually gave the speaker a bunch of flowers. "Flowers are nice", I said, "but we prefer to be paid for our work." He was dumbfounded, said he'd call me back. I never heard from him again.
I laugh to think what would have happened if Mildred had told Everard Bone "Of course, I charge ------ for such work."
(By the way, I love that name. Everard Bone -- can't you just see him.
Post by: PatH on November 05, 2010, 04:34:27 PM
Like you, I read it too fast, and am now rereading the first half before going on. There are so many wry little understated remarks that make me smile.
Post by: PatH on November 05, 2010, 04:36:43 PM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 05, 2010, 06:34:11 PM
Have an older cousin who married an English sailor during the early days of the war - they traveled to Canada to be married but I was young enough not to know why - I do know the family was upset with her - she was out of high school but I think barely - anyhow after the war they emigrated back to the US. since their little one was only 6 months old he could travel with my cousin where as her daughter who was two and a half had to wait to come with Ken on his visa.
It took over a year before he finally came and in the meantime un-be-knowings to either of them Florence was pregnant so Ken had another little boy when he arrived in the US. The big memory I have is the boxes and boxes of basics that Florence with the family's help assembled and mailed - I remember there was I think Bourbon hidden inside a loaf of bread and it worked. All sorts of canned goods and paper goods as well as some articles of clothing were boxed and mailed. I remember asking how come and learning how much longer it took for recovery in England as compared to here in the States where there was no bombing.
Post by: nlhome on November 05, 2010, 07:52:32 PM
Mildred was in the middle - and maybe she liked it that way. Like my neighbor, she could be there and even mediate, but she did nothave to be seriously involved.
I do know women who have never married, and I really don't know why - but sometimes I think they are not inclined to share or compromise.
Post by: JoanP on November 05, 2010, 09:49:51 PM
"Foreign eggs" - I assume they were powdered too?
Bellemere - please be sure to report back from the tea tomorrow. We are anxious to hear all about it - and how your black walnut cake was received too!
Barb - glad you noticed the schedule. We'll spend five more days starting tomorrow on the second half of Excellent Women - and then on Nov. 11, will begin Quartet in Autumn, in which we'll meet a Senior "spinster" - I still can't use the word without putting it in quotes) - who is about to retire from her place of employment.
Those of us who have avoided comments from the second half of Excellent Women will consider your posts beginning tomorrow.
PatH - I think rereading Excellent Women is an excellent idea - it's actually better the second time around!
Post by: JoanK on November 05, 2010, 09:57:18 PM
It's not only Anglicand who can be very critical of their fellow celebrants. A Jewish friend told me the following joke:
A Jewish man was castaway on a desert island. He lived there for 10 years, with no other person for hundreds of miles. Finally, a ship came and resued him.
"Tell me" said the captain. "What did you do all this time?"
"I'll show you" said the man. He led them to one side of the island where he had built a beautiful synagogue to worship God.
"That's wonderful" said the captain. "Wait" said the man. He led them to the other side of the island, where he had built another synagogue, almost as beautiful as the first.
"See that synagogue" he said. "I wouldn't be caught dead worshipping there."
Post by: PatH on November 05, 2010, 10:32:45 PM
JoanK, tee hee hee.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 06, 2010, 04:05:23 AM
JoanK - that made me laugh, and it's so true.
nlhome - yes, that was another thing my mother and I discussed - as I have mentioned before, she has a friend who has never married and lives alone, and mother said this friend is very rigid in her views and has to have everything just so. but is that why she didn't marry, or a result of not having married?
Rosemary
Post by: Gumtree on November 06, 2010, 05:21:17 AM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 06, 2010, 05:36:31 AM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
There is much to consider and discuss in these two novels.
| Discussion Schedule Excellent Women: *November 1 - 5 ~ Chapters 1 - 13 *November 6 - 10 ~ Chapters 14 - 27 | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/exwomencoversm.jpg) |
Some Topics from Excellent Women for Your Consideration and Discussion beginning Nov. 1:
1. From her portrayal of Mildred Lathbury, can you tell how Barbara Pym views the life of an unmarried woman, the spinster?
2. How does Mildred see herself? How old is she? Is she resigned to spinsterhood or is she still hopeful the right man will come along? At the start of the novel, do you think Mildred sees herself as one of the excellent woman of the parish?
3. What did you think of the male characters in Excellent Women? Were any of them comparable to Jane Austen's men? Were any of them interested in Mildred?
4. Do you find examples of Barbara Pym's Oxford education in her fiction? Does she flaunt it? Do you think Mildred attended university?
5. Barbara Pym's forte is said to be comedy. Would you say the same is true of Jane Austen? Will you share some examples from Excellent Women?
6. Will you note and share some of the cosy details characteristic of Pym's novels, especially the kitchen and cookery details?
7. Mildred seems to spend a lot of time in church. Do you think it is because she grew up as a vicar's daughter or do you think religion was more important in the 50's than it is now?
8.Finally, do you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women" of St. Mary's parish?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in August )
I suppose that is true, and I certainly wouldn't like to guarantee my mother's memory. On the other hand, if Mildred is 31 in the early 1950s, presumably she was about 24 when the war ended, so there would have been possibilities during and just after the war. I think she's the kind of person who would be a bit shy and would also have been brought up in a staid vicarage home - my own mother came from a much more rowdy household and had older sisters who could take her out and about with them. My grandmother would have been too busy to check up on them much, and would have wanted them out of the very small house because one of her many jobs was "taking washing in", which in those days would have required a great deal more space than it does now. I think of Mildred's family home as being much more akin to the Brontes' vicarage, where all that was heard was the sound of the ticking grandfather clock (at least, that's what it was like in the TV series of the Brontes' lives shown when I was a child!)
Mildred has been brought up in a "genteel" way - Pym often refers to "gentlewomen" - so would not have been accustomed to going out to dances, etc. She would not have been smart enough to go to society events (as, for instance, in A Dance to the Music of Time) but not working class enough (or at all) to go to the more commonplace events. Hers would have been - as it still is in EW - a world of church events, jumble sales and coffee mornings, with the only available men being dull curates (a recurring theme in BP's earlier novels).
Rosemary
Post by: Babi on November 06, 2010, 09:45:36 AM
ROSEMARY'S conclusion that Mildred wasn't "sufficiently assertive".
Mildred certainly wasn't raised to be assertive; she was raised to be
courteous and helpful. She too often uses phrases such as "a person
like me". She has type-cast herself.
Post by: salan on November 06, 2010, 11:46:42 AM
I finished the book, but will wait to comment til next week.
Sally
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 06, 2010, 01:31:09 PM
They were more settled, they dressed as mature women, there was not a menu of jobs for women and those who had jobs were relegated to secretarial, department store sales, not yet even teller's in a bank, teachers, nurses and airline stewardesses. And so, women living on their own were counting pennies.
A women alone was limited in after hours activities - there were still separate entries to many bars and restaurants with bars in the US - I do not know about the UK - but except for a movie, museum, library, cafeteria there were not too many places for a women to spend her after-hours except at church centered activities and at home. You do not meet scintillating men at home or in any of the public places approved for 'nice' women much less ;) 'excellent women'.
My thought is Mildred became who she is because of her childhood - her mother died while she was still in school - she has no one during those teen years to help her build her self-confidence - to help her sort out who she was – help her come to terms with her pain. There was no family member mentioned or even a teacher who acted as a mother figure that she could talk to if she was working through her mother's death – an adult who was there for her to help her with her guilt over feeling anger, which we know is part of grief and for any guilt she may have over something she may have thought contributed to her mother's death - she had a friend and they were both fat - they were not among the accepted group of girls, a way of safely isolating when you feel you are different.
The story has Mildred taking care of her father - He may have expected his life to go on so he did not have to deal with the pain of loss – after all he had the important work of a church leader and his daughter was going to make him feel better rather than he, as her father, the adult, taking it upon himself to make her feel better. She finds fault with men and yet, feels she needs to take care of them - sounds like she is still working on what she needed and didn't get from her father.
She did not have a mother who guided her or at least helped her make simple choices so that at age 31 choosing a lipstick and sticking with her choice without knowing how to judge if it was a good color for her is something a teenage girl goes through.
Teen years are difficult - you do not want to be singled out as different and Mildred was different - easy for the girls to say Ahhh and pat her on her head - I do not think she consciously made the choice but she knew she did not want to be the class pet project and she was different so she found one friend and they isolated themselves with schooltime giggles and eating.
Mildred had no one around to teach her parenting skills. I think most women know with marriage most often there are children - this could be something Mildred feared knowing she did not have a clue how to care for a child but then that is me injecting into the story another element that is not mentioned - but what is mentioned by its absence is there are no children in this story - none of the adults care of children.
I see Mildred as someone emotionally frozen in time and is thawing out again without any more guidance than she had when she was a teen. I think her attachment to Dora is greater than that of a friend. She was there when she was isolated from family after her mother died. There is no talk of a Grandmother or Aunt taking her by the hand and helping her through what we know had to be anger, a feeling if she can trust life or others to be there. Some place in her head or heart she must have asked if those who she lets down her guard and loves would be leaving her and dying therefore, she would go through feeling alone and isolated all over again.
It is safer to be alone and not even have a room-mate. A visiting guest is on Mildred's terms by not being there disrupting her carefully laid out life for too long a time - by carefully laying out her life she can control how she feels and avoid unresolved issues after the death of her mother and father.
I feel this has to matter or why would Barbara Pym bring the parents and their deaths into the story - others in life may have been able to get beyond a similar life experience and yes, many women did take care of a widowed father without becoming a spinster just like some folks live through hurricanes, floods, wars and other disasters while some or injured and some do not make it. Mildred appears to me to be one of the walking wounded.
Post by: JoanK on November 06, 2010, 01:43:13 PM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 06, 2010, 01:57:32 PM
She made choices that she acts out in ways most of us reading this story wish she used more assertive behavior - her head chatter and behavior may be part of the times but we all knew girls who were the minister's daughter or sons who were less than what the parish thought was proper - so why did Mildred stay so 'virtuous' and why was she putting herself down - we are thinking she was worthwhile but Mildred struggles with the idea she is worthwhile.
Post by: JudeS on November 06, 2010, 03:29:52 PM
Good Psych profile of Mildred and her "type". But the type is made of individuals and in some ways M. is atypical. Possibly because of her intelligence. She seems to personify "Hides her light under a barrel".
What I concluded after finishing the book is the following....
Mildred is virtuous almost to a fault when she meets a batch of unvirtuous folk-i.e.Normal people who don't hide their quirks. Her life becomes livened up and made more interesting by them although she is in somewhat in a quandry at first on
how to "eat them"i.e.deal with them. She muddles through very well and all like to have her around. Sort of a bland sauce for their fiery or over emotional personalities.
She learns much from Helena, Rocky, Allegra and Everard and the quality of her life improves in that she seems to understand a bit more of the world and who lives in it.She begins to peak out of her cocoon and becomes a tad more mature which proves she has the ability to change and grow if rather slowly.
It seemed to me that she could have a marriage with Everard at the snap of her fingers if she only knew how to snap. The underlying emotion she gives off is fear of change. Stay with the familiar. It lets you remain the same. No need to stretch and grow.Her choice not ours.
Post by: bellemere on November 06, 2010, 08:34:17 PM
society Tea at the Church of the Advent at the foot of Beacon Hill. A dozen or so excellent women and acoupe of excellent gentlement, all vey cordial and friendly. I had managed to drop off my suitable cake (a bundt, lightly glazed) earlier. I spoke with several of the members , all from
Boston or its suburbs. I asked them if they remembered Mildred and how they thought she viewed her life. Everyone had read the book and some cited it as their favorite. They mentioned the spring conference at Harvard and hoped some of us would be able to make it. They mentioned that therer are severel B and B's around Harvard that area a good alternative to e xpensive hotels.
Anyway, I am so glad I was able to go. A long day, but very rewarding. And the refreshments werd delicious.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 07, 2010, 02:27:09 AM
EW is definitely my favourite Pym novel, and it really does seem to improve each time you re-read it. The BP group reads a different novel each month, and I'm always glad to see EW coming round - this month is The Sweet Dove Died, whose heroine is far less interesting.
Best wishes,
Rosemary
Post by: Gumtree on November 07, 2010, 02:55:08 AM
It appears that some rationing of goods was still in place at the time the story is set - Some goods were rationed in Britain until 1954 when the rationing of meat was lifted which perhaps explains the 'very small chop' Mildred has on one occasion. Sugar was rationed until 1953 which is probably why Mildred is hesitant of using Mrs Gray's jam which the curate had given her -
JoanP asks whether Mildred has been to university - I think not -but she is well read in poetry- there is one recollection of Dora, William and Mildred being at Oxford but I read that as Dora and Mildred visiting William while he was there...
I have avoided reading anything about Barbara Pym and her life as I wanted to let the novel stand alone without Pym's life taking over - I quite see how some people would compare Pym's writing with that of Jane Austen but I regard it as a superficial likeness. Pym lacks the brilliance of JA's biting satirical humour, her wit and sharp insight into human behaviour. Pym is much more gentle in her approach.
Post by: JoanP on November 07, 2010, 07:44:52 AM
We are settled into a nice beach hotel in Florida - on the Gulf of Mexico. Though cooler than usual - only in the 6o's - should be in the 80's at this time of year, I feel a kinship with you, enjoying the summer weather again for at least a few days.
So happy that you are catching up with us. There's something to be said for reading Excellent Women without knowing how closely Pym is writing her own story. Mildred is indeed at a crossroads. She wants to be married, but do you think anyone will ever fill all of her criteria? She has quite a few interested men in her life - who value her as a "sensible" woman. That doesn't seem to be enough for our Mildred. Would it be enough for you? I think Everard Bone would be a match in many ways, but Mildred asks, with good reason, in my opinion, "is any man worth proofing, editing, peeling potatoes, and washing up for?" And answers her own question - "Probably not."
Gum, you're right - no university for Mildred, I see that now - she comments - "my lack of education makes it difficult to concentrate on anything more staightforward than a sermon..." But she does know her poetry, quotes from literature - Dante - in Italian - and French and so much more.
And you don't find biting satire, as you say, but delicate satire nevertheless. No Captain Wentworth - no romantic hero on the horizon...
Bellemere, need to hear more - and there is so much more to talk about from all of yesterday's posts. I think we'll be understand Mildred - and Barbara Pym by the time we move on to Quartet in Autumn.
Rosemary - do you remember the name of Pym's novel in whcih Mildred appears again?
I plan to return later this morning, with more questions for you on the second half of this book. (Does anyone know what a bowl of "greengages" might be?)
Post by: bellemere on November 07, 2010, 09:21:43 AM
Post by: Gumtree on November 07, 2010, 09:40:18 AM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 07, 2010, 09:41:10 AM
In his lovely book, The Kitchen Diaries, Nigel says on 13th September:
"The greengages seem to be going on forever this year. They arrive with green-gold skins and honey coloured flesh, only to turn almost jelly-like as they ripen. They make one of the juiciest crumbles of all." - there then follows a recipe for "An Almond and Greengage Crumble".
I believe you can also make them into jam.
I think in EW they would just be in a bowl on the table, not in syrup, though I don't know for sure.
Rosemary
Post by: pedln on November 07, 2010, 10:21:43 AM
Purple Plum Torte (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/foodwine/2013339059_hesserrecipe04.html)
I’m finding EW more enjoyable on second reading. I’ve never been an Austen fan, so was a little prepared NOT to like it. But that hasn’t been the case. I like the ‘gentle chuckles” that one encounters and am changing my mind about what I previously thought was low self-esteem.
Has anyone said what a “distressed gentlewomen” is?
Bellemere, so glad you enjoyed your get-together with the other Pym ladies yesterday.
Post by: Gumtree on November 07, 2010, 10:50:12 AM
In the 19th century large numbers of distressed gentlewomen emigrated from Britain to find work as seamstresses, governesses and the like somewhere in the colonies.
I had no idea that the term was still being used as late as post WWII - as indicated by Pym.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 07, 2010, 11:17:07 AM
I think that Barbie in The Jewel In The Crown would probably have fallen into this category, perhaps also Miss Crane. Angela Thirkell's novel - I think it is called The Bransoms - also features a paid companion who is clearly in a similar situation, although it being Angela Thirkell, there is a happy ending.
Rosemary
Post by: Gumtree on November 07, 2010, 11:41:21 AM
One thinks too, of real life instances - the Brontes are perhaps an obvious example...
Post by: fairanna on November 07, 2010, 02:42:49 PM
Post by: JoanP on November 07, 2010, 02:48:05 PM
Gum - these women are well-bred - and educated, you say? I'm wondering exactly what that means. Are they more educated than Mildred who seems to know so much - Italian, French, poetry -Dante (in Italian no less?) She says "my lack of education makes it difficult to concentrate on anything more staightforward than a sermon..."
Barbara Pym went to Oxford, studied English Literature. Doesn't it seem that she has imparted her education to Mildred?
I can't see that the distressed gentlewomen have anything on Mildred when it comes to education.
I'll never hear the end of it if I spend the better part of this beautiful day up in the room while he is at the beach. I'd better join him - but will confess I'd rather spend it here with you - and Barbara Pym. :D
Thanks for the information on the greengages - and the yummy recipe, Pedln. I think I'm going to try it when I get home. Will any old plums do, I wonder?
Post by: JoanK on November 07, 2010, 02:52:22 PM
I love that expression. She could have and perhaps thinks she wants it, but would she? We have seen how he, along with almost everyone else, uses her -- seeking her out only when he wants something, and then paying her the minimem of attention. To me, she's better off where she is.
The only man who doesn't seem to use her is Julian, perhaps because he has his sister to use, instead. Really, the view of men in this book is enough to put you off them forever.
Post by: bellemere on November 07, 2010, 05:06:34 PM
My cake, while not black walnut was nicely sliced and displayed on a silver platter. The Church of theAdvent has a lot of silver. They also have a wonderul sexton named Moses, who chased away a vagran who was bothering my daughter while she was waiting for me.
I am really going to try to attened the confence in the spring, and I will keep you informed about anything in the newsletter. Oh, the confence book is "No Fond Return of Love" .
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 07, 2010, 06:07:01 PM
JoanK - although most of the men in this novel are awful, as I have probably already said, my opinion of Everard has improved over the years. I think he is terrified of Helena and her attentions, and a bit gauche in his approaches to Mildred, but he has a wonderful dry sense of humour, and his mother is priceles - the sort of eccentric that can only exist in the English upper classes, because if someone of "lower birth" (as Mildred would no doubt say) behaved like her they would be certified. I don't think Everard means to use Mildred - it is Rocky who does that, ditto Helena - they are both terribly selfish, self-centered people, relying on charm (him) and beauty (him and her) to get away with not having to consider other people's feelings.
Anna - I am so glad you enjoyed EW. You might want now to try A Glass of Blessings, Some Tame Gazelle, Jane and Prudence or No Fond Return of Love, they are all good, and the first two in particular are very funny.
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on November 07, 2010, 08:50:33 PM
None of the men are bad men, they just aren't the romantics that Mildred is looking for. In the second half of the book we get more of the story of the romance with Bernard Hatherly when Mildred was 19. I'm not even sure this was a big romance - but more of a crush. What did you think? Helena says everyone has had someone in her life she has had to forget. Do you agree with her? Do you think Mildred did?
Rosemary, can you tell us the title of the novel in which Mildred makes a cameo appearance. I'd love to meet up with her again to see how she is doing...
I feel this is Barbara Pym's story. I know, I've said that before - but there is mounting evidence of this.
Bellemere, I'll bet anything the Tom you met was Tom Sopko, the North American Coordinator of the Pym Society who posted about us in the Society facebook page and brought Rosemary to our site. We owe that man! Everyone, remember that on Thursday we are planning to begin Quartet in Autumn. Have you been able to locate a copy? This one was written nearly 30 years later and is set in the 70's. It was shortlisted in 1980 for the Booker prize in the UK- and brought attention to Pym's earlier works, including Excellent Women. By now the unmarried woman is in her 60's, about to retire from her place of employment. The book jacket says:
"a softly compelling story of human dignity in the midst of hopelessness."
It does have its light moments, honest! But the hopelessness the publisher writes about does come from lost hopes and dreams, which we still harbor for Mildred of Excellent Women.
Post by: marcie on November 07, 2010, 09:28:07 PM
I've been thinking about the book and Mildred's perspective. She seems to me, on the whole, content with her life and open to letting other people have an affect on her. She also has a unique affect on quite a few other people. She is quite in demand of the attentions of a number of people, especially when they need help. Mildred is self-deprecating but usually in a humorous way. She also sees the foibles of other people. Like many of you, I found myself laughing out loud in some places.
Mildred seems able to be very honest, I think, in her observations, even when that is somewhat painful to her. I am not getting a hopeless feeling about the book. I think we have to judge the book by Mildred's expectations and feelings.
Post by: salan on November 08, 2010, 04:15:19 AM
I must confess that I got aggravated with Mildred for letting others take advantage of her. One instance was when she let the phone ring, all the while wondering whose voice was on the other end and what they would be asking her to do.
She mentions feeling "smug and dull". Does she mean dull as in boring, or as in not very bright?? Can one feel both smug and dull at the same time? Smug implies self satisfied.
Sally
Post by: Babi on November 08, 2010, 07:39:07 AM
I re-read a blurb on the cover of my pb copy by a David Cecil, who considers the book a fine
example of 'high comedy'. I tried reading the book with that idea in mind, and find it doesn't
work for me. Does Mr. Cecil find it funny that a single woman struggles with defining her life,
wondering whether she has made the right choice or is missing out on something more meaningful? A woman with a poor self-image who is emerging, cautiously, from her shell?
I do wonder at the man's idea of comedy.
Quote
Can one feel both smug and dull at the same time? Smug implies self-satisfied.Oh, I think so, SALLY. I generally find smug people to be more irritating than dull, but the 'dull'
is also there. Typically, they're not at all open-minded.
Post by: salan on November 08, 2010, 09:33:35 AM
Post by: bellemere on November 08, 2010, 09:42:27 AM
Almost all of my graduating class of English majors went into teaching. One professor, a nun was urging women to go to law school; she saw it as a great opportunity for women. The science majors did better in terms of jobs but a lot of thembecame teachers too. And one English major deviated from the norm to join a new company called IBM as a programmer.
As far as I know, none of them ended up "distressed". Wasn't Mildred sort of a social worker, before that bacame a profession?
Post by: PatH on November 08, 2010, 10:47:36 AM
Contact with the Napiers and Bone has pulled her out of her shell a bit. Now she has new downstairs neighbors who seem friendly and cosmopolitan, and she'll have a further interest dealing with Everard's proofreading and index. I see her as slowly expanding, but still leading much the same life. She and Everard might eventually become attracted and marry, but I'm guessing not.
Post by: Gumtree on November 08, 2010, 10:58:23 AM
He was also one of the Tolkien/C.S Lewis group known as the Inklings who used to meet at the pub and read and discuss their writing and no doubt other things as well...
Quote
Does Mr. Cecil find it funny that a single woman struggles with defining her life,
wondering whether she has made the right choice or is missing out on something more meaningful? A woman with a poor self-image who is emerging, cautiously, from her shell?
I do wonder at the man's idea of comedy.
I haven't seen the blurb you mention but I think perhaps Cecil is referring more to Pym's style of writing about our single woman and her struggles rather than the woman herself and the problems she faces. The comedy lies in the writing and not in the situation in which Mildred finds herself.
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 08, 2010, 01:19:58 PM
At the time marrying was the thing and I married a year out of High School. When I think back now we were so mature as compared to young folks today. Mildred seems less mature then what I am remembering but then each of our circumstances probably influenced our maturity.
I have been clearing out bookshelves this weekend and surprised to find I had a paperback I never read written by Barbara Pym, entitled - 'Jane and Prudence' - Has anyone read it?
And yes, I even remember all the teasing jokes about how helpless a man was with children and inside the house - they were supposed to take care of the house as a structure, maybe the garden, definitely the lawn and keep the vehicles repaired and filled with gas. Women drivers were still the butt of male jokes and as we joked how they couldn't manage the kitchen they teased we could not keep gas in the car or park the car properly.
I remember during the 50s making a good impression included having the boss over for dinner and being dressed with gloves when going to town. I still have a couple of pair of gloves in a glove box on top of my closet - those little pearl buttons on the inside of the wrist. And stockings, not panty hose but stockings - all the little wash-up items that Mildred sees to in the evening.
Thanks folks, this has been a fun discussion - I am off for a couple of weeks...
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 08, 2010, 02:22:55 PM
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 08, 2010, 03:24:51 PM
Rosemary
Post by: PatH on November 08, 2010, 07:01:56 PM
Post by: PatH on November 08, 2010, 07:11:00 PM
Post by: JoanP on November 08, 2010, 09:32:17 PM
On the one hand she really is interested in other people. She can't help but notice them and who doesn't respond to that?
Bellemere, she makes a great social worker, sympathetic to the pllight of her distressed gentlewomen - though I'm not sure what it is that she does. On the other hand, she seems to resent the intrusions - craving her own time for herself. She' s really an introvert, don't you think?
Post by: JoanP on November 08, 2010, 09:41:01 PM
It's understood she wants to marry for love...but is she being realistic? I'm not sure. I'm not sure that she will ever find someone romantic enough, someone who will put her first and find her wonderful. And she will not settle for less.
Rosemary, thank you for the book title - and as PatH says - for not divulging Midred's future. Pat, Everard brought Mildred to meet his mother - that was quite revealing, I thought. Mildred doesn't seem to see that as meaningful - but if a bachelor type brought me home to meet his mother, I'd think he was somewhat serious. His mother was something, wasn't she? :D
Bellemere, wouldn't it be fun to get Tom Sopko to join us here? He is a male member of the Pym Society - and probably has views on Pym's men, don't you think? I'm away from my computer right now...but when I get home, I bet I can find his email address. Or perhaps you have a way to let him know we are looking for him, Rosemary?
We've moved from the beach to this river-side hotel where Bruce's softball team is staying. Will have more time to spend here in the morning with all of you I have my own teacher/stewardess story to share...
Post by: Babi on November 09, 2010, 08:07:21 AM
any of the men she knows to marry them. Comparing herself with the industrious
Martha tells me is intelligently self-aware, so she made her choices there.
I'll be hanged, tho', if I would scrub up the Napiers mess while dear Rocky
lazed in my tidy rooms and drank my tea and brandy!
Your explanation of David Cecil's comment intrigues me, GUM, but I'm not
sure I understand how the
Quote
"comedy lies in the writing and not in the situation".Could you illustrate that for me?
Post by: JoanP on November 09, 2010, 11:30:22 AM
There's a lot here that is not "funny" I agree, Babi
I looked up a definition of "high comedy" and sense that it is not so much funny or raucous - do you think this is what Lord David Cecil intended when he used the term?
Quote
Noun 1. high comedy - a sophisticated comedy; often satirizing genteel societycomedy - light and humorous drama with a happy ending
{{{Barbara}}} - our thoughts are with you today - we hope you will be back in no time!
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 09, 2010, 01:15:10 PM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
| Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15 Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20 Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/quartetcover.jpg) |
Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15
Chapters 1 - 11
Nov. 11-15
Chapters 1 - 11
1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story. Does any one of the four stand out more than the others? Which one made the most impression on you?
2. How does this office foursome view one another?
3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women. Does anything initially make you aware of that?
4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women? Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?
5. Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters? What is the feeling these references convey?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html) Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/); "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!) (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf)
***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/ExcellentWomen_Pym.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in Autumn )
JoanP - I agree entirely that David Cecil would have been referring to the definition you have found; that is exactly what BP was doing - "satirising genteel society".
Children really do not feature in Pym novels - I don't know if she had no interest in them or was disappointed not to have them, but whenever one does appear (as in An Academic Question), they are uninteresting, undeveloped characters; it's almost as if BP put one in because she thought she ought to. Her finest novels have no child characters (although there are some grown-up children, - eg in Jane and Prudence, Jane's daughter Flora is about to go up to Oxford), and the women never seem to be in the least bothered by it. In A Glass of Blessings, Wilmet is asked by her friend Rowena (with whom she was in the Wrens - and I seem to remember that Rocky is mentioned!), now a happily married mother of 3, whether she minds not having had children, and so far as I can recall Wilmet certainly doesn't appear to be desolated. When Wilmet visits Rowena in the country, the children are handily whisked away by the nanny so that Wilmet and Rowena can have cosy girls' shopping trips, etc.
Rosemary
Post by: PatH on November 09, 2010, 05:13:02 PM
Post by: JoanP on November 09, 2010, 05:59:13 PM
We're working on it as we speak, PatH - We'll have another day to talk about Excellent Women and then on Thursday begin Quartet. Then we can spend remaining time on both books.
| Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15 Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20 Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/quartetcover.jpg) |
Post by: Tom in Cantab on November 09, 2010, 10:25:04 PM
Pym's novels are, in my opinion, best read chronologically (in the order in which they were written, not published). One can see the profound social and economic changes that swept England after WWII, and especially the strains on the middle class and the changes in the Church of England, build over the course of her literary life. Reading her autobiography and biography in parallel with the novels makes it clear both how her art imitated her life, and that she was a writer of fiction, whose characters and settings were entirely her own creations.
Those of us who are passionate Pymmites re-read her novels regularly. When I first read them in my 30s, I loved the characters and settings (the Anglo-Catholic churches she knew and loved are alive and well, although perhaps more often in the US than in the UK), and on second reading the quiet, ironic humor came through more clearly. Now in my 50s the poignancy, dignity and "quiet desperation" of her characters is more evident.
As you wrap up your discussion of Excellent Women and move on to Quartet, let me point you to a paper presented at a Pym conference in 2002, entitled Barbara Pym's Excellent Women: Subversion from Behind a Teacup http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html). Also, there is an index to the writings of Barbara Pym on the Pym Society web site that will help you track down characters who appear in more than one novel. http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf) And if you have any particular questions about Pym or her writings, please let me know and I'll reply to the best of my ability.
Best wishes,
Tom Sopko
North American Organizer for the Barbara Pym Society
Post by: marcie on November 10, 2010, 01:22:07 AM
Post by: Gumtree on November 10, 2010, 03:44:09 AM
Quote
Quote
Noun 1. high comedy - a sophisticated comedy; often satirizing genteel societycomedy - light and humorous drama with a happy ending
JoanP Your looking up that definition sent me to look up the term 'high comedy' as well - this is what I found in The Dictionary of Literary Terms by J.A Cudden (Penguin) which says, in part:
Quote
High Comedy : a term introduced by George Meredith in The Idea of Comedy 1877. By it he meant a form of comedy of manners marked by grace, wit and elegance; an urbane form whose appeal was primarily to the intellect.
and then M. H. Abrams'Glossary of Literary Terms says:
Quote
High Comedy as described by George Meredith in the classic essayThe Idea of Comedy (1877), evokes "intellectual laughter" - thoughtful laughter from spectators who remain emotionally detached from the action - at the spectacle of folly, pretentiousness, and incongruity in human behaviour. Meredith finds its finest form within the comedy of manners, in the combats of wit between such intelligent, highly verbal, and well matched lovers as Benedick and Beatrice in Shakespeare's Much Ado About Nothing and Mirabell and Millamant in Congreve's The Way of The World.
Just thought someone might be interested in those definitions.
Barbara Pym certainly fulfills much of those criteria especially relating to the 'the spectacle of folly, pretentiousness and incongruity in human behaviour' - she shows all that to perfection.
I have been a Pym skeptic but am fast becoming a fan - who knows perhaps in time, even a Pymmite :D
Post by: Babi on November 10, 2010, 08:43:03 AM
conversations.
TOM's remark perhaps holds an explanation for me, ie., on second reading the quiet, ironic humor came through more clearly. I think it quite likely I was too caught up, on
this reading, with the 'crossroads' Mildred was facing. I might see more of the humor on a
second reading.
Post by: JoanP on November 10, 2010, 09:49:14 AM
I think that many of us reading Pym for the first time have felt the same way you did. Were we too literally paying close attention to the action - and not the thinking behind the action - the motivation? Gum -George Meredith's comment on high comedy - evoking "intellectual laughter - thoughtful laughter from spectators who remain emotionally detached from the action - at the spectacle of folly, pretentiousness, and incongruity in human behaviour " -
makes me think that we were perhaps not "emotionally detached enough from the action - to really appreciate the satire? Thanks for bringing that to our attention.
Rosemary, thank YOU for verifying that children are absent from Barbara Pym's other novels too - for whatever reason. I think Tom's comment that "she wrote what she knew; for most of her life, she jotted down observations of people of the upper middle class" explains the reason we don't see portrayals of children. We certainly saw that trait of observing others in Mildred, didn't we?
Tom! - what a treat to find you in our midst this morning! Welcome! Those links you provided are absolutely amazing! Hazel K. Bell's Index of Barbara Pym's writings (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf) took my breath away! I wonder how long it took her to compile that. I see that Mildred Lathbury appears in both Jane Prejudice and Less than Angels...
Yes, these links belong in the heading here...will do that right now...
I am going to put them into the heading for easy future reference right now...
Post by: JoanP on November 10, 2010, 10:07:10 AM
Quartet in August - written in the late seventies. Remember the seventies? How can one forget them! We must prepare ourselves. It seemed like a good idea when we selected Quartet - since it was then that Barbara Pym was recognized by the Booker Prize people and her earlier books gained recognition. Tom speaks of the poignancy, dignity and "quiet desperation" of her characters - we shall certainly meet them in Quartet. Let's see if we get the "high comedy" this time around.
Post by: JoanP on November 10, 2010, 10:15:31 AM
Catherine Wallace's "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html). Thank you so much for that link too, Tom!
I hope you get a chance to read this paper - there is so much to consider - I think many of you reached the same conclusions about Mildred - here are a few of the highlights - but really, you should try to read the paper itself -
Quote
That anyone could think Mildred Lathbury is unhappily unmarried is a mystery to me. I see her as a model of independence. And it's a trait shared, though to a lesser degree, by enough of Barbara Pym's women that I find it odd that her writing fell out of popularity just as feminism was coming into it.
Quote
This is her designated role in society: a secondary character, ever helpful and dutiful, who must expect to step back to the sidelines when people with real lives make centre stage.
Quote
But, all appearances to the contrary, Mildred has the audacity to believe that she is at the centre of her own life. And she acts on this, ever so quietly - so quietly that no one notices she isn't always following the script
Quote
Mildred's hardest fought battle of independence is to be permitted to live alone. Why is it that society needs to ensure women are always in company?
This last comment is something that we will be considering in depth when we begin Quartet tomorrow. Have a great day everyone - Lucky me- off to the beach!
Post by: JoanK on November 10, 2010, 02:58:52 PM
I remember two professors I had in school --- one very dramatic in everything she did, the other very softspoken, he didn't seem to say much. We would go from one class to another. "But he doesn't tell us anything" another student said of the second. I had to "adjust my volume control" to hear what he was telling us, and his lessons were the ones that were the most helpful to me in later life.
Pym is like him. In this society that overdramatizes everything, it is hard to hear her. Certainly the feminists of the seventies (of whom I was one) couldn't hear her saying many of the same things we were, with quiet subversion, rather than angry rebellion.
Post by: PatH on November 10, 2010, 06:49:51 PM
One thing we haven't touched on:what do we suppose happened to the Napiers' marriage? Could those two stick it out together?
Post by: PatH on November 10, 2010, 07:09:31 PM
Post by: nlhome on November 10, 2010, 07:46:06 PM
Post by: marcie on November 10, 2010, 11:09:21 PM
I too enjoyed, and was informed by, the article at http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html
I especially liked this description of Mildred (bolding mine): "Mildred is perhaps the Pym character with at once the strongest and the quietest sense of self. But almost all of Pym's spinster heroines -- I particularly like using "heroines" because these women are so unlikely to use that word to describe themselves -- almost all are mistresses of their own lives in that they are not living in limbo, waiting for rescuers."
I think her quietness might put some people off and hide Mildred's strength of character. That's probably why a second reading would give us better insights.
Post by: fairanna on November 10, 2010, 11:50:42 PM
Post by: pedln on November 11, 2010, 09:27:18 AM
Quote
So why did Mildred and Pym's other Excellent Women appear to fall from popularity in the 1960s, a time when women were voicing their independence but Barbara Pym couldn't find anyone to publish her work?
I wish Barbara Pym had had the opportunity to keep writing through the 1980s and 1990s, and through the millennium. I would love to have seen how her women developed.
Catherine Wallace asks an interesting question in her article. And her closing statement is one we’ll certainly want to consider in our discussion of Quartet in Autumn.
This week we’ll be concentrating on Quartet in Autumn and its quartet of Marcia, Letty, Edwin and Norman, but while doing so it’s only naturally that comparisons with Excellent Women will come up. So, let them come up. And later this month we’ll delve more into comparisons.
Much has been said here about rereading Pym, and the insights gathered. I have found that to definitely be true. I read Quartet first, and must say that it colored my reading of Excellent Women, until I went back and did some more reading about Mildred et al. I don’t see the humor from EW in Quartet. An my initial thinking was – this is surreal.
Anna, hang in there. I hope your cold is better soon, and that at least, it gives you an excuse to put your feet up and read.
Post by: JoanP on November 11, 2010, 11:11:03 AM
PatH - I imagine that Rocky will continue his flirting, but that Helena wants to keep this handsome, amusing husband of hers, so she will put up with anything he does. What do you think?
Good eye on the salad, Pat. Minus the dressing - Mildred will fuss for others, but not for herself. Is that true with most women?
Anna, I agree with you, Quartet feels different. I hate to say this, bot something is missing. Maybe it is the hope, the promise that Mildred would happiness in the future, that she would find love or contentment. It remains to be seen whether the heroine of Quartet as found this.
We didn't really address one of the questions about Mildred's future - "Do you see Mildred becoming one of the "Excellent Women" of St. Mary's parish?"
I really liked the observation in Catherine Wallace's article which might answer that question -
"all appearances to the contrary, Mildred has the audacity to believe that she is at the centre of her own life. And she acts on this, ever so quietly - so quietly that no one notices she isn't always following the script"
Now Pedln leads us into the "noise" of the 1970's - to meet some unmarried women (I have a difficult time calling them "spinsters" - though Pym does not seem to hesitate.) We're going to have to listen closely to Pym's voice in this one. Loved your analogy, JoanK
Here we go!
Post by: pedln on November 11, 2010, 11:35:47 AM
Quote
She put too much faith in my memory to remember the characters' last names! Do you remember Rocky and Helena's?
It's Napier, JoanP. And you bring out something we should watch for -- We soon learn in Quartet that Marcia is Miss Ivory. But what about the others? Do they have last names, and does the fact that we don't learn them immediately or if ever, diminish them in any way?
There is one thing niggling at the back of my mind, bothering me. Could Pym's stories only be set in the United Kingdom, or would they fit anyplace? When I think back to the 50's and the 70's here, I can't imagine Mildred being Mildred here. Or Letty having to find new living quarters after her retirement. Just what is a bed-sitting room?
Rosemary and Tom, are there many young people in the Pym society. How do they look upon Pym's characters. I'm thinking about my granddaughter who will start college next year. She wants to major in English and get a masters in education. She wants to teach. And I wonder, will she meet Barbara Pym, and what will she think of her?
Post by: Gumtree on November 11, 2010, 12:37:47 PM
I think the Napiers will stay together - they'll continue to torment one another, arguing and breaking up and coming together again. I think perhaps they deserve one another.
And Mildred: I think she is very self sufficient and extremely competent in all she does. She deals with whatever is thrust upon her to resolve in a quiet effective manner but only if she chooses so to do - I have no doubt that she performs her work for the 'distressed gentlewomen' just as efficiently, tactfully and compassionately. She has been infatuated by Rocky's facile charm but will not be hurt by him. Everard is perhaps another matter ...
And Everard: I think he is smitten by Mildred. He's an established anthropologist with his own professional world and presumably a social circle yet suddenly he is everywhere Mildred is - he hangs around her workplace hoping to catch sight of her and perhaps take her to lunch, he attends the same lunchtime church services as Mildred does, he takes her to meet his mother (and if that is some kind of test then Mildred passes with flying colours), asks her to dinner and finally gets her into his own place to look at his etchings (proofs and indexing problems). He also remembers things she says (the oven cloth hanging near the stove) and is not fazed if she pulls her hair back severely or is wearing old clothes and no stockings - forget the surface appearance, Mildred is Mildred to him. He comes across as being erudite in his work but perhaps inarticulate when it comes to personal matters - and Mildred is not helping him out.
I know I'm going to enjoy rereading this book at leisure when I hope more of the nuances of meaning and the underlying 'high comedy' will be revealed.
Post by: JoanK on November 11, 2010, 03:15:14 PM
I can't find the quote, but there is somewhere where Mildred realizes she IS one of the excellant woman. Someone (Rocky?) calls her that, and she realizes that she is one of the excellant women who are approved but taken for granted and ignored.
Post by: bellemere on November 11, 2010, 03:55:19 PM
Gotta remember that the book is Quartet in Autumn, not August. Autumn just a shade more poignant, no?
I have a widowed friend who, like Mildred , cherishes her home and her solitude, On the day of her husband's funereal, her rather bossy sister announced to everyone that R. was coming to live in New York with her. My friend set her straight, and has never backed down.
I , and several friends, wonder how we would do on our own. I notice that many of you who are widowed maintain your own homes, while staying on good terms with siblings, children, inlaws, etc. Maybe there is a little bit of Mildred in all of us as we grow older ande wiser.? As I survey my children I see only one with whom I could possibly share a home. But not with the spouse! and only one child in law with whom I am completely comfortable. He would have to divorce one daughter and marry the other. I don't know if that could be arranged. /
Drove to the library in response to the email that they are holding "Quartet" for me, forgetting Veterans' Day closure . Will start it tomorrow , after reading it over 15 years ago.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 11, 2010, 04:21:49 PM
I am going through what for me is major stress, ie the selling, or not selling, of my house has reached one of its numerous climaxes this week, and I am not good at this sort of thing :( So it's great to have this site to come back to - it's a real anchor, and good to know that it will still be here wherever we are living and however poor we may feel!
Gumtree - you have exactly summarised my thoughts re Everard - though it took me many re-readings over many years to come to them (I first read EW when I was about 23, over 25 years ago). Sometimes I think I am very slow.
Pedln - I have no idea how old the members of the Pym group are, but I feel that most are middle-aged +. However. Lauren Mechling, who wrote the report of one of the US Pym conferences that I mentioned before, can't be much over 30. My elder daughter, aged 15, does not "get" Pym at all, despite having had it quoted at her for years. She knows exactly what I mean when I enjoy a "Pym moment" - usually through overhearing conversations in cafes, church, etc - but she still wouldn't read a Pym novel.
Although I don't know much about the 1950s in other countries, I don't think the novels could have been set anywhere else. All of the little details, that are all so Pym, would be hard to translate into another culture. A bedsitting room is a sort of one room apartment - a room in which you sleep, eat, etc - it might also have a small kitchen in a cupboard or something, but it would be very unlikely - especially in the 1950s - to have its own bathroom.
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 11, 2010, 04:36:11 PM
As I understand it, Quartet In Autumn was written late in BP's life, when she already knew she was suffering from terminal cancer. I suppose it is more than likely that this coloured her view of the world, but it is also possible that she just wanted to examine a different aspect of it - instead of the comfortably affluent (Some Tame Gazelle, A Glass of Blessings) or the comfortable-ish (EW, No Fond Return of Love), she perhaps wanted to look at the position of the unmarried and unmonied in the 1970s.
I don't find it nearly such an enjoyable book as EW, but it is still a good book, and its observations are, IMO, spot-on. In our property-obsessed society, it is perhaps hard to imagine retired people who don't own their own home, but they are out there, and this novel shows just how much that fact can affect your whole life. My mother used to work with a very eccentric older lady, who had been born into the aristocracy; she and her husband had decided never to buy property, as he worked abroad a lot and she, having no other ties, went with him. Husband then died young-ish, and she was left in "genteel poverty", living in a poorly heated, dilapidated flat and without the resources to do anything much about it. It's really awful how much not owning bricks and mortar can matter, at least in this country.
Rosemary
Post by: JoanK on November 11, 2010, 04:47:18 PM
The violent ups and downs in the housing market in the US have hurt many, elderly and other. I was lucky in that respect.
Post by: pedln on November 11, 2010, 04:51:02 PM
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I , and several friends, wonder how we would do on our own.
Bellemere, you would do fine, I’m sure, and would continue on as you have done. But throughout this discussion and again with your remarks I have found myself thinking of Holly Cantus. Does anyone remember Holly, and her Lady of the House Almanac and the Pocket Book of Household Hints? I was fortunate to make her acquaintance when she came to live in Puerto Rico in the 1960’s, early 70’s. I think she was from New York, and she been recently widowed. And as she told it, after her husband died, when she was again attending dinners and social gatherings she noticed that all the widows sat together at one table. And she vowed that she was not going to take her expected place at the widows’ table. Instead, she came, alone, to Puerto Rico. I’m not sure why that particular location. But whenever she attended a social gathering, when she left she knew everyone who had been there. I don’t know if she is the antithesis of Mildred or merely an example of a woman who wouldn’t fall into place.
Rosemary, thanks for that info. I gather that a bed sitting room would often be in a private home, much like Letty’s in Mrs. Pope’s house? I would hate to share a bathroom all the time with people outside my family. And by the way, who had to go upstairs and who had to go down, at Mildred’s and the Napiers? Insult to injury, that.
Post by: pedln on November 11, 2010, 05:08:42 PM
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In this country, it matters a lot, too. I don't know where I would be if I hadn't owned my own home. Even though I sold it and moved, it gave me the capital to settle somewhere else.
For sure, JoanK. Be it ever so humble there’s no place like home. My dead-end block has become more humble (the University student renters next door have already put up outdoor Christmas decorations – no doubt in preparation for the next party), but come what may, my house and what’s in it are mine. The thought of Letty, facing retirement, decreased income, and her older years without secure housing, is really horrible.
It used to be that ministers would never own their own homes. They would always live in the “parsonage.” And then the churches started realizing they had all these older retired preachers who had no home of their own. One minister told us that when he was in seminary they were starting to advise them to demand housing allowance rather than having to accept the house that the church owned.
Post by: Gumtree on November 11, 2010, 11:17:44 PM
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2010, 12:03:29 AM
I had no use for this advice, but I have a taste for reading odd cookbooks, and it looked pretty practical.
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2010, 12:25:41 AM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 12, 2010, 02:22:03 AM
I remember her saying something like "If Meat costs 35p per pound, we think it cheap, if vegetables cost 35p per pound we think them expensive - moral: eat vegetables".
There was a similar book - though not about cooking - by Jilly Cooper, about how to survive as a young working woman in London (this was not about power dressing and promotion, much more about how to do as little work as possible, have as many boyfriends as possible, and generally lead a riotous life - not very PC I suppose, but good fun); they were both of an age, and both good reads with lots of jokes.
Rosemary
Post by: pedln on November 12, 2010, 09:29:59 AM
Quote
I remember her saying something like "If Meat costs 35p per pound, we think it cheap, if vegetables cost 35p per pound we think them expensive - moral: eat vegetables".
:D
Post by: bellemere on November 12, 2010, 09:41:20 AM
To sell or not to sell the house is an ongoing theme here, too. Haven't seen anthing that makes me want to move. The new condos are luxurious and comfortable, but most of them are out on a highway with no sidewalks, miles from grocery stores, necessitating a car, and I have a feeling that there is no "neighboring" going on. So the two of us sit here with four bedrooms, hosting kids a few times a year. shrinking the gardens, fixing things as the fall apart dealing with grass, leaves, and snow and wondering if we are nuts.
I think Americans, even more than other countries, put tremendous emphasis on single home ownership, with tax deductions for mortgage interest, and low interest loans that helped us get into this bursting housing bubble that I don't fully understand. Owning property is the Holy
Grail here, more valued for its appreciation as an investment than as shelter.
Barbara's "distressed gentlewomen" apparently had to dip into their capital too often, as homeowners dip into equity loans too ft en, and the result is similar.
Boy, I am rambling here, but your comments raise so many thoughts in my head. I need an organizing principle as my teachers used to tell me. Excuse, please.
Post by: JoanP on November 12, 2010, 09:51:55 AM
First of all, practical matters -
Rosemary - selling a house is a difficult matter~ (and then there's the packing and moving once you sell!). We appreciate the time you are making for us. I'm flummoxed as to what is causing your screen to jump and roll if it isn't that compatibility issue. Did you try to click that box to the right of your browser described in a previous post? That's usually the problem. I'm going to repeat it again for you, just in case you missed it.
I found it in Post 111 -
Try this -
COMPABILITY ISSUES -
The remedy is to "Switch your browser to run in "Compatibility mode." When a site is open in the IE8 browser there is a button to the right of the address bar that looks like a broken page. Do you see it? Click on that. It will turn blue-ish. Warning - don't do this in the middle of a reply post or you will lose your work as it changes mode.
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"Gotta remember that the book is Quartet in Autumn, not August. Autumn just a shade more poignant, no? Bellemere"Oh, yes...the autumn of one's life - that's what this is all about isn't it? I don't know how those wires got crossed. I've tried to scrub out all the mention of August and change to Autumn - if you spot it anywhere else, please let me know and I'll fix it immediately. I hope when you are all reading the book you be on notice for references to "Autumn" ...
Bellemere, emptying the house to put it on the market is enough to scare me into staying. We've lived here for 34 years - I'm told that was a mistake. If you move every ten, you have an easier time of it. To make matters worse, I'm something of a pack rat!
Pedln - Napier - of course! Thank you. Now I can look up "Napier, Rocky" in Bell's Index to see if the couple will appear in future Pym.
Quote
And you bring out something we should watch for -- We soon learn in Quartet that Marcia is Miss Ivory. But what about the others? Do they have last names, and does the fact that we don't learn them immediately or if ever, diminish them in any way?An interesting question. I noted somewhere that Letty's name is Letty Crowe. I might not mean anything if we don't know last names... unless you want to look them up in Hazel Bell's Index, of course. ;) The story seems to be about the relationships (or lack of) amongst the four office workers - who address one another by first names. Maybe not important at all that last names aren't used...
Post by: pedln on November 12, 2010, 11:02:21 AM
During my first reading of Quartet ( and of Barbara Pym) I thought of the book as totally bizarre. (That’s the adjective JoanP was going to ask me about). Here were these four people who worked and had worked together in one room – doing what? We’re never told. They’re just there. And the sense of isolation among them is overwhelming. They really don’t communicate. Yes, Marcia had been ill – something cut out or cut off, but nobody knew for sure. And why was this man Edwin going to all these different churches, every day. Or were they different churches, he seemed to see the same priest, someone to have a drink with. I thought this book very strange.
But now, after reading and discussing EW, I think that one needs to know how to read Pym, and I’ve learned much through reading all your posts. The settings are narrow, the lives depicted are narrow, but made up of many details. Hopefully there is much to be gained from the second time around.
So, if you had a chance to read any of Quartet, is there any one character that stands out for you more than the others?
Post by: JudeS on November 12, 2010, 11:27:11 AM
Thia was a really well written and thoughtful article that helped me to understand why so many of you folks like B.P. and her books so much. I am still trying to be convinced.
The question "Could this story be happening in another coountry or time?" interested me.
In the early 1950s England was recovering from a devastating war, the feminist movement was on the rise and the British colonial system was falling apart. Thus England was in a state of flux. The still solid pillars were the Church and the Monarchy. However , as we see in the novel the differences between the "High" and "Low" church were on Mildred's mind.
(Is incense a good or bad thing?). However Church going is a given to her and she thinks a lot about wether people do or do not attend services. Everard does attend , which seems to make him a bit more acceptable. So I think this is very English and time specific.
Because of the importance of the time and setting I wonder if Pym's books have been translated and if so into what
languages? Does anyone know?
Post by: salan on November 12, 2010, 05:47:26 PM
Questions: What is orvieta (someone was drinking a cup of it) and what is a zebra crossing?
I find it a little frustrating that BP depicts single people as leading rather dull and narrow lives. We have a 93 year old woman in my ftf reading group who has never been married and she has led a very active, interesting and productive life. No one would ever describe her as a spinster or an old maid. I wish these characters had a little more "color" in their lives.
My descriptions of these characters (through chap. 11): Edwin--prissy pants, Norman--the grouch, Letty--the mouse, and Marcia--what word would you use for someone who sneaks her garbage into the library and hordes tins of food and milk bottles??? Despicable, maybe?
Sally
Post by: PatH on November 12, 2010, 06:33:30 PM
Post by: pedln on November 12, 2010, 06:51:17 PM
So we have the last names of three of our Quartet. In the index, Norman is listed as Norman.
Jude, an interesting question about the translations. Other countries would also have experienced bombing and extreme rationing during the war, so that would be in common. But the religious aspects might be hard to understand.
Post by: JoanP on November 12, 2010, 07:00:11 PM
Sally - thanks for Edwin's last name. Now we can look him up in Hazel Bell's Index - (he doesn't appear in any more of Pym's novels - but Helena does in Less thatn Angels and Rocky in A gless of Blessings. I found that interesting - not together in the future novels???)
Jude - an interesting question - To me, the story is so British, I personally can't see it set anywhere else. Don't know about translations though. We'll have to ask Tom - and Rosemary. I was interested in the "welfare state" referred to quite frequently in Quartet. I assume the reference is to National Health care. Would be interested to hear what all you think of that.
Did you notice - neither one of the heroines (Marcia or Letty?) seem to be churchgoers. No excellent women here. Is this another indication of the changing times?
Pedln, we're posting together at the same time...
Orvieto - I think it's the Italian wine David Lydell, Letty's friend Marjorie's fiance is savoring. Already he gets on my nerves. I think he'd show interest in anything that is free. So he lives in the vicarage. Is he to live with Marjorie? Is that why Letty can't move in with her as they had always planned?
Post by: JoanP on November 12, 2010, 07:06:37 PM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
| Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15 Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20 Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/quartetcover.jpg) |
Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15
Chapters 1 - 11
Nov. 11-15
Chapters 1 - 11
1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story. Does any one of the four stand out more than the others? Which one made the most impression on you?
2. How does this office foursome view one another?
3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women. Does anything initially make you aware of that?
4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women? Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?
5. Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters? What is the feeling these references convey?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/); "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!) (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf)
***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/ExcellentWomen_Pym.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in Autumn )
Post by: JudeS on November 12, 2010, 08:05:52 PM
Oh my did someone miss seeing the Beatles famous album of them crossing the street at a ZEBRA CROSSING?
It's a black and white grid on the road for pedestrian crossing.
Orvieta? Hmm. Sounds like a horrible English version of Ovaltine. I'll look it up on Google.
Now I can't find the post from the person who asked about these words. They are so typically British.
Post by: JudeS on November 12, 2010, 08:10:25 PM
I apoligize for maligning the name of Ovaltine.
Post by: JoanP on November 12, 2010, 08:58:34 PM
What’s an Orvieto?
Orvieto is a town and winemaking region in the southern part of the landlocked state of Umbria in north-central Italy, a tortuous 90-minute drive north of Rome. They make some red wine around Orvieto, but its claim to fame is its white wine made from a blend of trebbiano, verdello, canaiolo and grechetto grapes, with perhaps a splash of malvasia.
Apparently, Orvieto wines were a favorite tipple for Pope Gregory XVI, leader of the Catholic Church from 1831 to 1846. In more recent times, the other thing that Orvieto wines are famous for is their spectacular ordinariness. http://blogs.ajc.com/drink/2010/09/26/ruffino-orvieto/
Post by: marcie on November 12, 2010, 10:33:19 PM
There are serious issues in Quartet (I'm only partway through it) but they are not treated solemnly but with ironic humor. I think that Pym has created characters with whom I can have some sympathy in a weird way but that doesn't stop me from seeing them as humorous at times. For example, I laughed out loud at the effect of Marcia's eyes on various people. When Letty first speaks directly to her: "She [Letty] tried to smile at her, but when she looked at Marcia she saw that her dark eyes were alarmingly magnified behind her glasses, like the eyes of some nocturnal tree-climbing animal. A lemur or a potto, was it?" Marcia's (internal) response to Letty is also in the animal vein: "Marcia, glancing sharply at Letty, thought, she's like an old sheep, but she means well even though she is a bit interfering at times."
I think you have to read this stuff slow and let it sink in. It's really hilarious in the way that I find British humor to be (from watching BBC programs). In the book, you hear the characters' internal dialogs contrasted with the settings they are in (eg, Norman's visit to the hospital to see his brother in law; Letty visiting her old school friend and the cleric she has invited). I am not usually a very "visual" reader. I don't picture the characters or actions but something about Pym's writing makes me picture --or maybe it's hear--something that is quite funny.
Post by: Gumtree on November 13, 2010, 03:03:49 AM
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The question "Could this story be happening in another coountry or time?" interested me.
Yes, me too - To me Pym's stories seem to be quintessentially British and although there are still aspects in Australian life which reflect our British heritage they are now just a faint reflection of the original. I can't really see Pym's story transferring to a Sydney setting with Aussie battlers as the protagonists.
Having said that, I think that all societies have much the same problems relating to individuals who are lonely, ill, or insecure either emotionally or financially - sometimes both - and for whom retirement presents huge changes and problems.
The question of women devoting themselves to working in Church activities was also raised. I know women who do just that - they are from all religions not just Anglican or Roman Catholic. One lady in particular comes to mind who is involved with a Protestant Church - she is married, has children, grandchildren and a full and worthwhile life beyond the confines of the church. Even so she devotes a considerable part of her life to running church activites, fund raising and community service and has done so all of her life - as did her mother before her. Excellent Women in every respect.
-
Post by: Gumtree on November 13, 2010, 04:28:27 AM
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and Marcia--what word would you use for someone who sneaks her garbage into the library and hordes tins of food and milk bottles??? Despicable, maybe?
H'mmm - despicable seems a little harsh - I would say eccentric certainly - or as the Brits might put it 'dotty' - someone who may not be completely rational in their behaviour. Marcia hides the boxes etc which are 'too good to throw away' in inconspicuous places in the library and while that is not acceptable behaviour the librarians are on to her and no doubt deal with the matter efficiently and without fuss or confrontation. I doubt that they would despise Marcia for her conduct but rather think that they would consider her to be a cross they had to bear.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 13, 2010, 05:12:16 AM
Off to the wilds of Ardnamurcan now, see you tomorrow night :)
Rosemary
Post by: salan on November 13, 2010, 05:57:39 AM
Sally
Post by: bellemere on November 13, 2010, 08:18:26 AM
This book is humorous, yes, but isn't there underlying sadness, also.
Regarding the response of the slumped lady in the subway: Iwas given the same answer by a little old lady who was playing two slot machines at the ship's casine, even tho there was a sign asking people not to do that.I pointed that out. she Sure set me back a notch.
Post by: JoanP on November 13, 2010, 08:45:04 AM
"Quiet desperation" - do you see Letty in this category, Bellemere?
Do you see anything of Mildred Lathbury in Marcia? I'm thinking of Mildred's attraction to the married Rockingham Napier. She knows it won't go anywhere, but she feels good when with him - she feels his interest in her. Marcia seems feel this way about Dr. Strong.
It just occurs to me - that Marcia has just had a mastectomy - not long ago, I read that Barbara Pym had breast cancer during this same period. Her novels reflect her own life, we are told, she writes of what she knows...
Which character do you find the least memorable, Sally asks...
My first impulse is to say Norman, but I find I change my mind as Pym focuses on each character...
"the wilds of Ardnamurcan?"
Post by: pedln on November 13, 2010, 10:10:44 AM
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They are trying strenuously to maintain dignity by not appearing "needy". Theypractice giving the impression that their lives are perfectly fine, complete. But the phrase"quiet desperation" comes to mind.
Good point, Bellemere. Are they succeeding?
Gumtree, what about Edwin. Do you see him as an “Excellent Man,” or does he wear different stripes.
I am not a health care person or a psychologist, but I think Marcia is depressed, as well as otherwise ill.
Post by: ursamajor on November 13, 2010, 10:52:01 AM
Letty 's situation is the most critical. She had a reasonable retirement all planned, and all at once her plans are blown to pieces. "Batty" is a good word for Marcia. Todys's librarians have their crosses to bear.
I agree that this book is funnier than Excellent Women, but it is a bitter, sad sort of humor. I am finding the story quite depressing.
Post by: JoanK on November 13, 2010, 02:29:49 PM
I agree. Pym constantly seems to give the choice: get married or live a dull and narrow life. When I worked in the government, I worked with many never-married people: men and women, although more women (more single young women come to Washington than single youngmen, so there is an imbalance of opportunity to meet a partner). They all seemed to live interesting busy lives, with lots of friends and interests (actually, although it's satisfying, there is no life narrower than that of a mother of young children).
I was particularly struck by the boring holidays the characters in QA took. At work, you could always tell who was unmarried by the exotic holidays they took: holidays that those of us with children in college couldn't begin to afford, even though we made the same amount of money.
Post by: JoanP on November 13, 2010, 02:42:38 PM
Ursa, do you still have the Pym autobiography? Was she depressed at this time - late seventies?
I don't see Letty too concerned about where she would live when Marjorie's plans changed. I can't see Letty living in that small community with Marjorie anyway. It was nice of Edwin to take the responsibility for finding a place for her - but I could see her staying on with the Nigerian family, couldn't you?
Post by: ursamajor on November 13, 2010, 03:14:29 PM
I will check the biography (which I haven't read) and see if Holt mentions Pym's state of mind when QIA was written. I took the autobiography back to the library.
Post by: bellemere on November 14, 2010, 11:15:58 AM
Post by: ursamajor on November 14, 2010, 12:17:26 PM
I also learned that QIA originally was called Four Point Turn a title with no meaning for me.
Post by: salan on November 14, 2010, 01:14:18 PM
Sally
Post by: nlhome on November 14, 2010, 02:21:25 PM
They had reached the "autumn of their lives" and didn't have much hope of improving their finances.
Post by: JoanK on November 14, 2010, 02:55:59 PM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 14, 2010, 03:46:54 PM
I wonder if "four point turn" was a play on "three point turn", which is a manouevre you used to have to do in the driving test - if you touched the kerb as you turned the car round, you failed.
I think very few people in post war Britain took foreign holidays unless they were super rich. Most of Pym's characters take trips to British resorts or country towns, although a very entertaining pilgrimage to Rome is undertaken by a Parish group in one of the books. By the 1970s, package holidays had made foreign travel much more available, but it would still have been viewed with suspicion by many older people - and I agree, lowly office workers probably couldn't afford it.
In my last job, I had a secretary who was in her 40s and lived alone. She was a very interesting, active, enterprising sort of person, who did masses of hill walking, but her holidays were nearly always taken in the UK because she simply couldn't afford to go abroad. I do know single people who have much more money than I do because they are not having to cover their children's education, etc, but I think they are the ones with professional salaries.
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on November 14, 2010, 05:40:04 PM
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They had reached the "autumn of their lives"nlhome, do you feel a sense of sadness when the leaves begin to fall? My husband does - while I love the crisp cool days with the colors of the changing leaves and the deep blue of the sky. In the Washington metro area, fall is the best season of the year - in my opinion. For Bruce, it is a reminder of the passage of time.
Ursa, I thought it was interesting to that Pym intended to name this novel "Four Point Turn." Rosemary, I too thought of a driving maneuver. (Your trip sounded wonderful, a grand escape from the worries of house-selling. I got to thinking that these four seem to go out of their way to hide from one another, to avoid one another on the street - or in their homes. Avoiding their curbs? Do you think that's what she intended with that title?
Quartet in Autumn... I think Pym regarded autumn the same way that Bruce does... Falling leaves, the woman slumped on the train platform...fallen. The four have nowhere to go on their holiday - would prefer to be at the office, don't you think?
It makes me wonder what they will do when they retire. Must they retire? Do they have a choice? What will they DO with their time?
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Those "extra days would accumulate like a pile of dead leaves drifting on the pavement in autumn."There are more such comments about autumn in this book.
JoanK - do you think most people have a reason for hoarding the things they do? I can see me turning into a hoarder - hanging on to things that I might need some day. My grandson recently had a great time going through the Halloween costumes his father and brothers wore - 30 years ago! Maybe I was hoarding them - for just that moment. Who were the Collier brothers?
Post by: JoanK on November 14, 2010, 06:13:30 PM
Post by: pedln on November 14, 2010, 06:42:57 PM
Rosemary, your travels sent me to my online map of the world to find those places you visited. Is the Lecht a mountain or a ski resort? It’s amazing how little we (I) know of other parts of the world. I never would have associated skiing with Scotland.
nlhome, I think, too, their lives were very quiet and conservative. It’s almost like they didn’t no what to do with themselves when they were away from the office. I wonder if that’s one of the reasons Edwin went to so many church activities – to be around other people, and to be sure that he would run into Father G, so they could go have a drink together.
They have a hard time reaching out to others, even among themselves, but more so with strangers. I’m thinking of Letty at the Rendevous restaurant. She could have spoken to the man who was there when she arrived, or to the woman who took his place when he left. In fact, she started to make overtures for conversation, but Letty did not respond. We do find, that Letty has been on trips abroad – to Spain and Italy. With Marjorie. And it seems that Marjorie has always been the leader, with Letty following along behind.
Rosemary – what would we do without you. The term pensioner pops up often in British Lit. But surely they are not all the same. How does the pension from the State work? Is it like our Social Security, based on contributions,etc. (I can’t even ask the question properly because I get a teachers’ pension instead.) Or does everyone get one, regardless of work?
Post by: JoanP on November 14, 2010, 06:44:13 PM
Post by: nlhome on November 14, 2010, 09:33:11 PM
Pedlin, I thought that too of Edwin. I think all four of them were tentative in their relationships.
Post by: JudeS on November 14, 2010, 10:45:11 PM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 15, 2010, 02:19:01 AM
The Lecht is a ski resort between Alford and Tomintoul - I am not quite sure if the mountain is also called that. There are other Scottish ski resorts at Cairngorm, Glenshee and Glen Coe. They were all set up in a blaze of glory some years ago, but until last year winters had been getting warmer and warmer, with virtually no snow, so the resorts had been doing really badly, although they have tried to diversify a bit with other attractions. Last winter, however, we had absolutely tons of snow, and they had their best season for years. I imagine that they are all mostly used by Scots, as you would be taking a huge risk to book a ski-ing holiday here. My children, however, learned to ski on the dry ski slope at Alford and then at the Lecht, although my husband now takes the elder two to stay with a friend in Germany every year to get a guaranteed week's ski-ing.
Rosemary
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 15, 2010, 02:24:44 AM
JoanK - yes, I could easily be a hoarder if I didn't have a husband who interferes with my hoarding! I still have some of my daughters' baby clothes - he's not giving those to Oxfam :D
Joan P - Although I don't know what BP intended with that title, I do think that's a brilliant interpretation - the thought of them all delicately manoeuvering to avoid too much closeness to one another.
Rosemary
Post by: salan on November 15, 2010, 07:21:23 AM
Sally
Post by: ursamajor on November 15, 2010, 09:00:37 AM
I still have a few baby clothes also; these were worn by all five of my children; alas, the baby is fifty this year. However, I regularly take things to Goodwill, and I have been giving away things like my sterling and the dinner dishes used only at Thanksgiving and Christmas. The kids called it the " Passover China", completely confusing our friends who knew we were Episcopalian. It was a great relief to pass on the silver tea sets bought by my mother to two of the daughters. My mother loved silver and always had a servant to polish hers. Those days are long gone now.
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2010, 11:04:17 AM
I found a review of another of Pym's books in which the reviewer briefly outlines the plot and then says: "It sounds psychopathic, but it's actually a brilliant comedy of manners at which Barbara Pym excels." I think that statement applies to this book. I think that if we are open to the comedy in the book, it has quite a different effect than sadness.
Post by: pedln on November 15, 2010, 11:10:24 AM
Sally and Ursa, w’ll be taking up the rest of the book tomorrow, so I don’t think you have to worry much about holding back.
I think we all probably agree that Marcia has severe mental and physical problems. Does she need a keeper? What do you think about Janice, the volunteer from the medical center who keeps coming by to see how Marcia is doing. Wow. Talk about a Freudian slip ..
“Some of us at the Center have been worrying about the lonely ones. I mean people who live alone.” I was glad that in spite of all her problems, Marcia stood her ground and did not let Janice intrude on her life.
When I first started reading Quartet there was an article (which I clipped) in one of the AARP publications about a woman who asked her state Human Services dept for help in selecting an assisted living place for her uncle. Without her knowledge the DHS visited him in his home, obtained a court order, removed him from his home and confined him to a psychiatric facility. The court-appointed convervator liquidated nearly everything in his home including family photos and his Korean War uniform. It took 8 months and the help of a state senator for the woman to get guardianship of her uncle and place him in more suitable living quarters.
I don’t know if Pym had concerns about unwanted intrusions. Perhaps those of you who have read her biography or her other books have some insight into that.
We have a few other peripheral characters in addition to our quartet. What are your thoughts about Marjorie, Mrs. Pope, and Nigel and Priscilla?
Post by: pedln on November 15, 2010, 11:14:46 AM
Post by: ursamajor on November 15, 2010, 12:40:47 PM
I don't think anorexia had been invented in the 1970s and I'm not sure it its definition fits Marcia anyway. She was surely obsessive compulsive, but eating may have been just too much trouble. She persistently refused all efforts to help her and was overwhelmingly suspicious of even her old colleagues. The business about the "foreign" milk bottle in which Letty had given her milk was especially telling.
Does anyone else think the legacy of her house was out of character? She had not displayed any interest in Norman before. And Norman certainly didn't know what to do with it.
Post by: JoanP on November 15, 2010, 01:00:53 PM
I got the feeling that the state pension to which everyone is/was entitled back in the 70's was not really much to live on, unless one lived quite frugally. Maybe Marcia knows this...which would explain the hoarded tins of food. She'll eat them some day when she's really hungry. Do you think this is comparable to our Social Security benefits...never really intended to be the sole means of survival in old age. It seems that many have forgotten that. Mention of the "welfare state" is not spoken of favorably in Quartet, did you notice? - that's just an impression I got.
I agree, Ursa, Marcia is not anorexic - she simply has lost interest in food. We're not told why - except that she is recovering from surgery. Perhaps Barbara Pym feels the same way as she writes this? I wish we could have learned more about her from earlier novels. I checked Hazel Bell's Index - no Marcia Ivory..
Thinking back about what Tom said in his post last week. He thought it better to read the books chronologically - as they were written. Perhaps the change in the tone of the novels would have been less perceptible had we done that - rather than skip from those excellent women in the 50's all the way to the Quartet in the late 70's.
Can you imagine Mildred in the 70's? She'd be working - about to retire. Probably full time, in an office. Would she have given up on church attendance altogether as Letty has? In Quartet, only Edwin attends services. He is similar to Everard...but I'm looking at the "spinsters" of the 70's. Life doesn't seem as easy as in the 50's - even with assistance provided by the state. Harsher, less personal... Pedln, do you think that Janice shows real concern about Marcia - or is she just doing her job, going through the motions. Does Janice work for the state - or for a church group?
You asked earlier about Edwin taking responsibility for finding lodging for Letty... a good question. He takes the role of an "excellent woman" don't you think?
I'm also interested to hear of instances of humor here - things that made you chuckle...shall we keep a list?
Post by: PatH on November 15, 2010, 04:36:42 PM
Post by: JoanK on November 15, 2010, 04:40:55 PM
Interfering. Hmmmm. We hate Marcia's interfering friends, and yet she starved to death, and nobody stopped it. When should one interfere, and how? Should her Doctor have dragged her off to the hospital and fed her intervenously? Should all the people who fussed about her eating have done more? If so, what?
Notice, she didn't feed herself, but fed the other three, when they took her tinned food.
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2010, 09:39:23 PM
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2010, 10:04:00 PM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
| Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15 Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20 Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/quartetcover.jpg) |
Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15 Chapters 1 - 11
Nov. 11-15 Chapters 1 - 11
1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story. Does any one of the four stand out more than the others? Which one made the most impression on you?
2. How does this office foursome view one another?
3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women. Does anything initially make you aware of that?
4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women? Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?
5. Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters? What is the feeling these references convey?
Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement
Nov. 16-20 Chapters 12 - Final Chapter
Nov. 16-20 Chapters 12 - Final Chapter
1. Do you agree most retirement parties are depressing? "Why does one feel sorry for men who retire, not women," Pym asks. What will they DO after retirement? Have Letty or Marcia given any thought to this question? Are they looking forward to it?
2. Who is the protagonist here? Is there one?
3. Marcia has certainly declined since retirement. But what about the others? Do you notice any changes in them, for better or for worse?
4. Norman is frequently referred to as an "odd little man" by those he meets for the first time. Why do you suppose that iis? Why do you think he went to Marcia's house, but did not make himself known?
5. Do you think the two men exhibit more concern for Marcia and Letty than the women do for them? Why would Marcia leave her house to Norman? Will he keep it?
6. Did you ever anticipate Marcia's demise? What effect did her cremation service have on the other three? On you?
7. What effect did Marjorie's character have on the story?
8. If you had to name the most uplifting scene in the book, what would it be? The most humorous?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/); "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!) (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf)
***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/ExcellentWomen_Pym.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in Autumn )
Post by: marcie on November 15, 2010, 10:04:57 PM
Anyway, I will try to find spots in the book that I find humorous to see if you can see any humor there too, even though I find them funny within the pace of the book--maybe not necessarily on their own. I'll bold some parts that I think make the descriptions funny.
One instance: Chapter Two (p. 23 in my copy) where Marcia follows Norman to the British Museum. "She found herself entering the British Museum, ascending wide stone steps and walking through echoing galleries filled with alarming images and objects in glass cases, until they came to rest in the Egyptian section by a display of mummified animals and small crocodiles. Here Norman had mingled with a crowd of school children and Marcia slipped away. If she had thought of making herself known to him, the time and such questions as 'Do you come here often?' were obviously inappropriate. Norman had not revealed to any of them that he visited the British Museum, and even if he had, would never have admitted to the contemplation of mummified crocodiles. No doubt it was a secret thing."
Later in the book, we learn something interesting about Norman's visit that day.
On the next page, Ediwn is contemplating his "lunchtime church crawl." "Today he was attracted by the announcement of an austerity luncheon in aid of a well known charity, but rather surprisingly 'with wine'--that might be worth a visit."
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 16, 2010, 02:55:53 AM
Places like tourist attractions now just say "concessions" in their tarriff, which is IMO silly as you then have to ask what they are - pensioners? the unemployed? the disabled? They are all so afraid of being criticised as ageist, disabledist, or whatever. I am not yet a pensioner (nor, at the rate our economy is going, am I likely to be one till I am at least 95) but when I am I will be quite happy to be called one if it means I get a cheaper deal!
Rosemary
Post by: ursamajor on November 16, 2010, 06:17:41 AM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 16, 2010, 06:28:30 AM
Has anyone read any of the collections of Joyce Grenfell's letters? During the war she entertained the troops all over the world, and wrote many letters home, especially to her best friend Virginia Graham. The letters also refer to the time she spent in London, helping to put on concerts during the Blitz. They are a very good read, and give you lots of background about the period.
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on November 16, 2010, 08:46:50 AM
PatH - I agree, the humor is there but not as "sparkling." Excellent Women was so much more uplifting with hope for the future. Given the author's declining health, I think it is amazing that she handled Quartet as well as she did. Pedln asks an interesting question. What do you think was the most uplifting scene in the book.
Marcie, thanks for describing the two scenes in which you found humor - both involved the men. I smiled again at the reference to Edwin's "lunchtime church crawl" - (as opposed to a "pub crawl." :D )
It's funny, because one of the scenes that I noted also involved a man - David Lydell and his self centered world as he announces to the ladies that he is suffering from "diorrhea." - and Letty wondering how that word is spelled rather than dwell on how "ordinary" this future vicar of hers actually was. Really, I don't see Letty any happier retiring in the country, do you?
JoanK - let's talk about Marcia's eating - or not eating. It wasn't really up to the young, inexperienced social worker to interfere more - or was it? The doctors who saw all told her to eat more. Should they have seen that she was in real danger and done more? It was rather painful to read, wasn't it? Watching her decline, slip through the cracks of the system that was supposed to be making sure she was looked after. If a person makes a decision not to get help when needed (or not to eat), can anyone or any system interfere? My best friend in the world passed away last year from this very same thing. Because she hadn't been eating, she was unable to recover from a surgery and passed away in the hospital. We were all asking the same questions that we are now asking about Marcia.
Rosemary, I looked up Joyce Grenfell's letters to Virginia Graham (http://users.bestweb.net/~foosie/grenfell.htm). They sound fascinating. That was real friendship, wasn't it! Letters were such an important source of history, weren't they? We've lost a lot of history in losing the habit of letter writing. I get so excited when the mailman brings first class mail - a rarity, a letter. I have only two of my friend's letters.
I'd really like to hear your thoughts on this. Don't be afraid about being a spoiler - we're ready to discuss the second half of the book, beginning with the retirement party...
Post by: JoanP on November 16, 2010, 09:11:22 AM
Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement
Nov. 16-20 Chapters 12 - Final Chapter
Nov. 16-20 Chapters 12 - Final Chapter
1. Do you agree most retirement parties are depressing? "Why does one feel sorry for men who retire, not women," Pym asks. What will they DO after retirement? Have Letty or Marcia given any thought to this question? Are they looking forward to it?
2. Who is the protagonist here? Is there one?
3. Marcia has certainly declined since retirement. But what about the others? Do you notice any changes in them, for better or for worse?
4. Norman is frequently referred to as an "odd little man" by those he meets for the first time. Why do you suppose that iis? Why do you think he went to Marcia's house, but did not make himself known?
5. Do you think the two men exhibit more concern for Marcia and Letty than the women do for them? Why would Marcia leave her house to Norman? Will he keep it?
6. Did you ever anticipate Marcia's demise? What effect did her cremation service have on the other three? On you?
7. What effect did Marjorie's character have on the story?
8. If you had to name the most uplifting scene in the book, what would it be? The most humorous?
Post by: pedln on November 16, 2010, 09:46:18 AM
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Do you agree most retirement parties are depressing?No. But the ones I’ve been to, including my own, were lovely, and every one retiring was doing it by choice and was very happy about it.
But the retirement lunch and the lunch planned by Edwin and Norman reminded me so much of our Latin translation for this week – a letter by Pliny, “Graded Friendship is Degraded Friendship,” in which he described a host who served three different qualities of wine, with the best going to himself and a few close associates and the lesser quality to merchants and freedmen.
These affairs point out Pym’s recognition of the dimished status of women like Letty and Marcia. They were unskilled (now we find out) and didn’t deserve an evening party. At lunch you could serve the less expensive drink and need only serve sandwiches. Older women didn’t need that much to eat anyway. And they needn’t be embarrassed about their ages because nobody was interested – they’d been “old” for so long. Actually, the speech given at the luncheon was one example of the humor in the book – it was so full of nothing.
Post by: marcie on November 16, 2010, 10:59:32 AM
Another situation in the book that has both humor and pathos is the fact that no one really knows what the group of four do or what their "department" is about.
Post by: PatH on November 16, 2010, 11:23:39 AM
Another situation in the book that has both humor and pathos is the fact that no one really knows what the group of four do or what their "department" is about.Yes, and that makes the retirement speech scathing. He is really saying "I haven't any idea what these two women did, but it isn't worth bothering to keep on doing."
I agree with you, Marcie, that much of the humor is so quiet, just an apt phrase, that it's hard to pull it out of context.
Post by: bellemere on November 16, 2010, 11:43:45 AM
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 16, 2010, 12:08:48 PM
There are some true Pym humorous touches - the ritual handing out of the jelly baby after lunch, the competitive casserole cooking of Marjorie and Beth Doughty, Norman and Ken's conversations at the hospital and at Christmas lunch (""I only hope you're not going to suffer for it" Norman could hardly resist casting this small gloom on the festivities"), but on the whole the book is terribly sad.
I don't think Barbara Pym had nearly such a grim life as Norman, Letty, Marcia and Edwin - she retired to Finstock in Oxfordshire and lived happily with her sister until her premature death - but she had no doubt witnessed the sad lives of people who had no-one. And I do think the issue of property is a very real one - Norman lives in a tiny bedsitter until he inherits Marcia's house, but by then it is too late, he doesn't know what to do with it; Letty is at the mercy of her various landladies. I think that out of all the characters, Edwin is the happiest with his lot - he really enjoys all the church festivals and having his drinks with Father G, just as some men like making model trains or collecting stamps - he doesn't want anything else, and he doesn't seem to have any money worries. Letty is to me the saddest of all, in that unlike Marcia she is very aware of her lot, and keeps trying to put a brave face on things.
Mildred of course also lives in a rented flat, but somehow there is much more optimism in Excellent Women - although Mildred may appear to have written herself off, i don't think she has really, and there really are "infinite possibilities" for her, whereas I can't see Letty's life getting much better. The one positive point, I feel, is that Mrs Pope does need Letty as much as Letty needs her room, and I wonder if they will eventually become friends - maybe Mrs Pope will even leave her house to Letty?
Rosemary
Post by: ursamajor on November 16, 2010, 01:42:45 PM
Post by: JudeS on November 16, 2010, 01:47:11 PM
This is a fairly common way for seniors who do not wish to take an active role in their suicide manage to kill themselves.
It is the passive way of suicide rather than the active way that many younger people useto complete the act.i.e.shooting, hanging, jumping in front of a train (in a nearby community close to mine there were five deaths completed by teens in the past year by jumping in front of a train).
The choice of suiciide by not eating is a way for some religous people to fool themselves into thinking that this is not suicide and they will not go to hell or be buried in a space apart from the family cemetery plot.
When an elderly person chooses this method there is no way of stopping them other than hospitalization and a feeding tube. If this is done then they will usually pull out the tube.
This is a very sad entry to this discussion but Marcia is a very sad person who may represent a part of the authors thoughts at this time in her life. From what I've read she did suffer from depression and may have thought of this method. She did not choose this method but her least likeable character did. You can't write about this method unless you have given it much thought.
Post by: JoanK on November 16, 2010, 03:35:23 PM
She clearly had some of the hoarder in her, but it never got to the point where it negatively impacted her life or space. When we cleaned out her house, 40 years later, we found several such "collections" in the basement (hanger, frozen food containers etc) , but only enough clutter upstairs to make the house rather messy. But Pat and I often kid each other about the Collyer brothers.
In edit: I missed a whole page of comments when I posted that. Yes, the question of how much to interfere is a really hard one. I had that problem with a friend who was clearly ignoring a life threatening health problem. My whining about "you really should see a doctor" did nothing. Another friend figured out how to get her forcibly taken to the hospital against her will, thus saving her life. I don't think I could ever have done that -- if I was her only friend, she would be dead now, ionstead of alive and happy.
Post by: pedln on November 16, 2010, 07:33:16 PM
Post by: pedln on November 16, 2010, 10:19:46 PM
Quote
“Graded Friendship is Degraded Friendship.” It certainly does apply to many of the observations that Pym makes in the book about how society sees various individuals and groups.
Marcie, I’m glad you brought that up because not only in the books, but Rosemary has alluded classes also. Rosemary, please don’t think we’re picking on you, but is class still important in the UK, and how do they break down?
Quote
Another situation in the book that has both humor and pathos is the fact that no one really knows what the group of four do or what their "department" is about.
My first reaction to that was that it was really bizarre, but yes, there is humor there, especially when one considers that a lot of retirement & honoring speeches are similarily full of hogwash. Nobody listens and nobody says, “what a crock.” Though “Norman commented that from what was said he supposed they would spend their retirement setting the motor industry to rights.” I thought he meant that what was said was meaningless, but after hearing today about the new film Made in Dagenham, I wonder if he (and Pym) were making a comment about the Irish women machinists who struck against the Ford Motor company in 1968 and brought about the equal pay act in 1970.
Post by: PatH on November 16, 2010, 11:28:03 PM
....do you think that Marcia was making a conscious effort to kill herself. Or did she just not have the energy to make the effort to eat, let alone cook or prepare a meal.I've been trying to sort out Marcia's last days. I don't think she was consciously trying to kill herself (though unconsciously, who knows). A doctor in the hospital told Janice that Marcia was "in a terminal situation even before her collapse". She was probably getting weaker and weaker, and it just seemed harder and harder even to make the minimal sort of effort at eating she normally did. When the tab broke off the tin of lunch meat, she didn't have the strength to do anything about it. I think her collapse was from the disease, though much worsened by hunger.
Post by: Gumtree on November 17, 2010, 12:54:37 AM
I think her hoarding was possibly a hangover from war time restrictions when everyone was encouraged to 'make and mend' 'don't waste' etc. - we were encouraged to save everything that could conceivably be useful - to carefully roll up pieces of string, save used brown paper or good pieces of butcher's paper, paper bags, cardboard boxes, screw top jars and tins. When I cleared my MIL's house there were still hoards of these things in drawers and cupboards - especially string and brown paper.
As others have said Pym's humour is very understated in this book, it's there but muted. I read the book a few weeks ago straight through in one gulp but find it hard to reread more than a few pages at a time because it is so very sad.
Marcia is a tragic figure and her end is inevitable. The others also have tragedy waiting for them - Life has simply passed by Norman - he will fritter away his legacy and keep on grumbling, in reality talking to himself - Edwin's real life ended when his wife died and he fills his time by attending church services - and poor Letty is still striving, still taking care of her appearance but even so her world is dwindling - Mrs Pope could prove a godsend or could turn on Letty or become ill and helpless and Letty could find herself in even worse circumstances. The tragedy and sadness lies in their empty lives - none seem to have enough inner resources to carry them through adversity. Sad, Sad, Sad.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 17, 2010, 01:53:25 AM
The old aristocracy still have licence to behave in bizarre, eccentric and selfish ways because they have the right accents and the right background. Much of this is perpetrated by schooling - the "public" (ie old established, and usually boarding,) schools, such as Eton, Harrow, Rugby, and in Scotland Merchiston, Glenalmond, Strathallan, Fettes, instil in their pupils a sense of confidence and self-importance that no-one else will ever have. One of my friend's children has just left university having previously been at an Edinburgh public school, and he and his school friends have been welcomed with open arms into the Edinburgh banking and legal world, at a time when most other graduates can't get a job of any sort. He was told that some of the Edinburgh firms will only recruit from the former pupils of certain Edinburgh schools (though of course they don't admit this in public). This may be a particularly Edinburgh thing, but I am quite sure it goes on to some extent everywhere.
I was at university in Cambridge, having come from a very ordinary home and a state grammar school - it was only when I arrived there that it hit me in the face - the place was full of students from public schools, and the confidence that years of privilege and a public school education had given them was something that carried them through everything - they have an ability to bluff that the rest of us rarely have, and nothing much worries them because they know that everything will be alright for them in the world. In this country, it's as much or more about class as it is about money - you can be a billionaire and still not be accepted into upper class circles. I read an article the other day about Kate Middleton, Prince William's now fiance, and the writer said that her family will never really be accepted by the royal family because, although the Middletons are very far from poor, they are just not going to cut it with the aristocracy. It remains to be seen if this is true, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.
In QIA, Norman is clearly "common", with his bedsit in Kilburn and his nippy little remarks. Letty is much more middle class - BP would never in a million years have given her a brother-in-law who was a driving instructor, it's just not something that posh people do, and in choosing that job for Ken BP was giving us a clear pointer as to his station in life. Even his name points up his class - I think I remember Tom Sopko remarking ages ago that BP chose all of her names very carefully - so, in A Glass of Blessings for example, Piers and Rowena are very clearly of Wilmet's class (Wilmet is the main character), whereas Keith, Piers' friend, with his obsessions with washing powder and "nice things", very clearly isn't. Language also gives the game away - and that is still the case in the UK today. Keith using the word "nice" labels him as lower class than Piers, etc even if there were no other clues. And today people who consider themselves a cut above would still say "lavatory" not "toilet", "supper" not "tea" (unless it was afternoon tea), and would expect their adult children to call them "Mummy", not "Mum".
Rosemary
Post by: bellemere on November 17, 2010, 10:11:59 AM
't rind a response for that one.
At the very end, Letty is hatching a trip to the countryside , to see Marjorie, but with two gentlemen accompanying her. Take THAT, Margorie. Her thoughts are also about everone haveng the bility to make changes. I guess that is the optimistic note to an otherwise downer of a story.
Post by: PatH on November 17, 2010, 10:53:43 AM
Post by: pedln on November 17, 2010, 11:25:30 AM
Bellemere -- I think Marjorie was the one who suggested they all come to the country. We've all known someone like Marjorie -- no matter what her age she's going to get her MAN.
Post by: JoanP on November 17, 2010, 12:54:20 PM
Quote
"Marcia is a tragic figure and her end is inevitable."Gum, she is - tragic. Do you think that Marcia was actually trying to hasten the end of her life? Pym seems to have poured her energy into her portrayal. Do you think she is the main character of the story - "the protagonist?"
I think of a protagonist as someone who does something, an actor. Had to look up a definition to see if Marcia fits the role -
Quote
"A protagonist (from the Greek πρωταγωνιστής protagonists, "one who plays the first part, chief actor"[1]) is the main character (the central or primary personal figure) of a literary, theatrical, cinematic, or musical narrative, around whom the events of the narrative's plot revolve and with whom the audience is intended to share the most empathy."
What do you all think? Does a novel have to have a protagonist? Do you think it is Marcia? Does she fit the definition?
The four are going into retirement unprepared for the isolation they will experience without their daily office companions. They are without a community within a big city. You might say that Edwin does - as he crawls from one church community to another, but does he really belong to one of them? Mrs. Pope said otherwise...he only comes around now and then - depending on the church calendar and the services offered.
I remember wondering if they really had to retire - if they couldn't stay together longer - but knew that would only put off the inevitable. (Wouldn't having a computer and the internet - and SeniorLearn have made a difference?)
But of the four - wouldn't you say the action centers around Marcia's dire situation? And what Marcia is doing to herself?
Pym is forcing us to ask - - how much do we interfere with someone who needs help, but won't ask for it. JoanK yes, the question of how much to interfere is a really hard one. Who was responsible for Marcia? No one? Someone? When Dr. Strong insisted that Marcia undergo the mastectomy, regardless of her protests, she came to regard him with a kind of love. He assumed she needed help and and went ahead and gave it to her. She accepted all the care and attention from the hospital nurses and aides - accepted them as acts of love. One of them called her "dear," she remembered. Is that the answer to the question, then? Give help, even when not asked.
Quote
When an elderly person chooses this method there is no way of stopping them other than hospitalization and a feeding tube. JudeHmm. The hospital...
Gum - do you suppose that Marcia was trying to get sick again - even subconsciously, in order to get back in the hospital under Dr. Strong's care? Remember when Norman - or was it Letty, were going through her things they found brand new, never worn, frilly nightgowns - is she saving them for the hospital? Bellemere agrees that this was Marcia's goal...
Interesting to know how Pym spend time on naming her characters...Dr. Strong was aptly named, I think.
Post by: salan on November 17, 2010, 03:14:41 PM
Sally
Post by: bellemere on November 17, 2010, 03:49:10 PM
Post by: pedln on November 17, 2010, 04:50:15 PM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 17, 2010, 05:02:03 PM
The four established over years of working together a close acquaintance, association, or familiarity. If not an "intimate friendship" I think there was the hope that the next year their desire to feel the warmth of friendship with its cosy chats that included intimate knowledge of each other would grow.
The various churches were not providing the feeling to Norman that years of traditional behavior built into a familiar pattern with the same faces provided.
Marcia, as others have said, was too isolated and at the hospital she sacrificed what was her decision just for the warmth of acknowledgement that made her feel as if someone cared and loved her. Had she someone who met with her every week for dinner and another who accompanied her shopping or even for a walk she may not have developed her obsession organizing the tins of food. She had no hobbies, no dog to walk nor a cat to jump into her lap. She didn't seem to have any interests. Not even walking to see the leaves change or the store front windows decorated. All she had was her careful organization so that everything was frozen in its perfect place till she herself was in affect frozen in her perfect place. Controlling everything in its place may have been her dream doing her job however, if it was a successful company there is no stopping with everything in its perfect place and so the seeds of perfecting organization may have been part of Marcia so that all she could do was live life through others just as she followed Norman.
Marcia of all the characters sure got our attention and so maybe she was a leader - she was like watching a leaf or tree branch slowly make its way to the edge of a waterfalls till the pull is so great over it goes. By the time you realize she was not going to head for the shoreline it was too late because you would risk your life trying to save her with very little chance of success.
The story got me thinking - we often make contact with those who are alone during the holidays and yet, this story reminds me how just a brief weekly phone call or a note in the mail a couple of times a month would help someone living alone - we all like recognition however, as we age there are fewer folks who recognize us each day. Also, the blessings for those of us who have established an intimate relationship are more than we realize until we read a story like this -
These characters seem to me to be yearning for something they do not know how to fix much less really understand what is the matter with themselves. We are all taught to be strong, independent and capable or else in our old age they take the keys and lock us up in a nursing home. Like saving for retirement - things happen - And so, for more of us then society likes to acknowledge we are not prepared - and then society gets annoyed mostly I think because thinking about their own retirement presents them with one more problem and seniors remind them of that problem.
Today reminds me that the smallest things can make a difference - I emailed Johnson and Johnson with an idea for them since my friend and I have been having less then desirable experiences using band-aids - they returned the email asking me to call them - we chatted and chatted for over a half hour about the experiences my friend and I experienced as I explained crepe paper skin after 75 and thin, easily torn skin after 85 - In return surprise today was a Fed Ex package with a full box of window wipes, a full package of furniture wax sheets and one of these new dusters - it was such a lift after a week laying around so I tried each out and I thought, even one of these products purchased when I shop would be such a simple unexpected gift to send to someone who lives alone.
Never thought too much of attending a Senior Center but this story pushes me - I will not be able to work forever and the kind of work I have been doing does not give me free weekends or evenings when most groups get together. Yep, I am a fixer - may not be able to fix the characters in this book but I sure can fix some things about my own life.
And lastly hope I got their names correct - for some reason reading this I mixed up all their names and had other ways of IDing each - my brain is still full of meds - what can I say...
Post by: marcie on November 17, 2010, 10:36:54 PM
I don't think that Marcia intentionally caused her own death. I was surprised that Marcia dies in the story (I didn't see it coming) but I see the book as balanced between Pym's perspective on various problems in society and within and among individuals and the strength of people making daily decisions and facing life's challenges.
Post by: pedln on November 18, 2010, 08:47:40 AM
And now I'm hitting the road for a two-day drive east. Hope to connect with everyone tonight at the motel.
Post by: ursamajor on November 18, 2010, 10:57:50 AM
Post by: JoanP on November 18, 2010, 11:39:35 AM
Quote
I see the book as balanced between Pym's perspective on various problems in society and within and among individuals and the strength of people making daily decisions and facing life's challenges. Marcie
Do you think Pym intended a broader commentary on the decline in moral values and responsibility in the 70's, the insufficiency indadequate social services provided in an impersonal welfare state, the decline in church attendance and the accompanying source of support the "excellent women" had always provided in the past? Or is her focus on the state of the women who never married - as she has done in the past. Do some handle their situation better than others? Is the problem made worse because they live in London? Would they have done better to live in the country, do you think?
Barbara points out these people have nothing in their lives - no real reason to get up in the morning. Except to go to the office. They are lacking intimacy with other human beings - they don't even have pets - most of them don't have books as companions. (Though Marcia and Letty have anthologies of poetry at their bedside, did you notice that?) They have nowhere to turn for help...Barbara, I agree, they don't even understand the problem themselves.
Instead, they keep their loneliness secret - even from one another. Why? Pride? Shame because no one loves them, because they feel unlovable? Perhaps if they kept a diary as Barbara Pym did, they would come to a better understanding of themselves.
Pedln - take care. Which direction are you headed, east or west? We'll look forward to hearing from you tonight.
Post by: ursamajor on November 18, 2010, 12:56:42 PM
the insufficiency inadequate social services provided in an impersonal welfare state, the decline in church attendance and the accompanying source of support the "excellent women" had always provided in the past?
It seems to me that as far as Norman and Marcia go, this is a case of you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. It was not so much that social services were inadequate as that Marcia would have none of them. People choose to go to church services or not to go. Perhaps there were still excellent women in the church but they did not cross paths with those outside their congregations.
Is there a moral dilemma as to whether social services, or indeed food, should be forced on the unwilling? It is my belief that the ultimate right we have is to choose not to eat. The idea of someone installing a feeding tube against my will is the stuff of nightmare. My children all know that when my time runs out I want no interference in the process. Isn't that a basic human right?
Yes, Marcia is exasperating. a person who continually rejects help is frustrating to those who wish to provide help. Marcia truly made her bed.
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 18, 2010, 04:34:50 PM
There is the dynamic that family and friend survivors of suicide deal with that explains, the ultimate control is suicide. Survivors deal with the kind of wringing of hands, mind and heart that we have shared in this discussion, which continues and brings some survivors to their knees taking years and years to recover.
It sounds callous to say they made a choice about their life - it is easier to believe folks have the right to make choices about partners, friends, unnecessary surgery, what and how much they eat, drink and how they choose to be merry and that our desire to feel integrated, self-accepting, self-respect is not dependent on their beliefs or behavior. However, there is something about life - an individual life - a life we can imagine walking in their shoes when they choose life threatening behavior or death.
Thinking further, if someone chooses to give up their life for a greater cause that our society considers worthy and they die in the process we do not wrangle kicking and stomping over their choice - it seems to affect us when the death was unnecessary and especially, if we recognize the circumstances and knew in our hearts there was another choice.
I do not think in this discussion we can come up with an answer to how we help those we think are suicidal because if there was an answer hundreds of thousands of survivors, each year would not be attending meetings and paying for psychiatric care after someone close to them committed suicide.
If suicide is the ultimate control then there has to be other control issues for that person. Certainly, an obsession with order and cleanliness like Marcia is a control issue however, there are many other control issues including folks who need to control the behavior of family members who are often rage-a-holics or who batter loved ones. They are attempting to control.
In fact even Norman in our story was trying to control his surroundings so he would feel the traditional, acceptable, distant but still the intimacy he experienced while he was working. By attending many churches rather than sticking with one and building intimacy he wanted to control his surroundings to meet his need.
We know now [Charlie Rose had a great series on the brain explaining all this] that all compulsive behavior affects certain parts of the brain that require more and more stimulation as time goes on. I have not heard if there is a limit to the stimulation required and if all compulsive behaviorists when they reach the limits of what around them they can control start on themselves. Certainly, we have learned that anorexia is a control issue where the person can control their food intake and their body weight – but they too, like floating to the edge, if the pull of the waterfalls grabs hold they do not have the strength to resist and over they go.
And so, we are really reading how an older person can slip into becoming anorexic. We mostly think of this as a disease affecting younger women who have no power to control their lives – hmmm maybe this is a disease not talked about as others in this discussion have suggested because we are all aware how little power is in the hands of the older generation not only by society, the community, but even in families, with others making choices for us. Many of us are ignored except when the younger family member needs us or has extra time or the dutiful traditional holidays mean the picture is not complete without grama and gramps.
I am thinking as I write as if talking out loud – but I can see again the reason to have interests, hobbies, the value of speaking up even if those around act bored till we find those who like to listen and share their own stories – if nothing else schools and daycares are filled with kids to read to for a half hour one or two days a week. The teachers love it.
Post by: serenesheila on November 18, 2010, 06:03:27 PM
Today, I have spent my day reading. I am half way through EW, and also half way through our other book. So far, I prefer EW, to QIA. I am finding the second book depressing. I am a single, 76 y/o widow, my middle aged daughter is living with me, as are our Yorkie, and our cat. I seldom leave home, due to a back injury. Most of my friends have either died, or moved away. I seldom see anyone, except my doctors, and my house cleaner. D0es that sound boring? It isn't. I am very content.
My computer gives me access to others, whenever I want some contact. I love to read. In addition, I watch a number of favorite programs on my TV. I am interested in world affairs, and politics. I enjoy the news programs on Sundays. I enjoy most PBS programs. I even watch a few regular programs. I am quite happy with my life.
I am an only "child", and am used to spending a lot of time, alone. As for suicide, my mother once told me that if she became unable to take care of herself, she would end her life. She did just that, in a retirement community. She was 88 y/o. She just stopped eating, as Marcia did. It was always important to her, to be in control. Her last control issue was con
trol of her food intake. Sad.
Sheila
.
Post by: Tom in Cantab on November 18, 2010, 11:09:02 PM
I've just been catching up on the discussion of QIA and must commend you all for your insight and diligence. This is the book that many devoted Pymmites avoid, because it is atypical -- darker than her early works, and far removed from the 1950's world of Excellent Women, where all of life's problems could be solved by a chat with the Vicar or a cup of tea. But it is also the book that was short-listed for the Booker Prize, her literary masterpiece, and people who find her early works boring and twee often prefer this one.
When Barbara took early retirement due to illness she moved to a small village in Oxfordshire with her sister. I don't know if she was eager to move to the country, or if they could simply not afford to remain in London (I must ask Hazel Holt). But I do know that Barbara's sister, who worked for the BBC, made more money than Barbara, who worked as an assistant editor for a non-profit anthropological organization. So the lives of the people in QIA may represent what she imagined could happen to aging office workers like herself who didn't have a sister, a cat, English Literature and the Anglican Church to comfort and sustain them.
In response to a couple of earlier posts about social class, I'm going to recommend two outstanding papers from the Pym Society archives, both by Tim Burnett. The first paper includes a discussion of the names of the characters in QIA, and may be found at http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett03.html (http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett03.html). If you like this, Tim presented a second paper in 2005 that you can read here http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett05.html (http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett05.html)
Finally, I'm going to recommend a paper describing how a professor taught QIA to college students. This one is on Google Books, and a few pages are missing, but you can read most of it, including the brilliant close reading of the very first paragraph of Quartet. (In one of Barbara's notebooks now in the Bodleian Library archives, she wrote "Do their hair!!") This is also an example of Pym's skill as a writer; while the narrative flows smoothly and the dialogue is always natural, there is never a wasted word or comma, and every modifier speaks volumes. Here's the link: http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZH3BunpEK8C&lpg=PP1&dq=all%20this%20reading&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZH3BunpEK8C&lpg=PP1&dq=all%20this%20reading&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Best wishes to all,
Tom
Post by: salan on November 19, 2010, 05:16:33 AM
Norman is a fairly negative person. I think that perhaps he always has been--his nature, rather than circumstances. I did find myself wondering if he would keep the house. It pleased me to think about him living there and fixing it up; but I don't think he will.
I felt like Letty was the main character even though she was the most nondescript; but that word in itself descripes her perfectly. I can't see her moving to the country.
I thought this was a most depressing book. I didn't find much humor in it. Somethings did evoke a smile in me, but on the whole; it just depressed me.
It's not a book that I would care to read again.
Sally
Post by: bellemere on November 19, 2010, 09:07:36 AM
Post by: JoanP on November 19, 2010, 01:14:19 PM
Quote
This is the book that many devoted Pymmites avoid, because it is atypical -- darker than her early works, and far removed from the 1950's world of Excellent Women, where all of life's problems could be solved by a chat with the Vicar or a cup of tea.
Knowing that "devoted Pymmites" feel this way about Quartet is some consolation to those of us who come away from this book feeling...as Sally does, that we would not want to read it again. I'm wondering if we would feel this way had we read any of the eight other novels separating Quartet from Excellent Women.
I also liked Tom's comment that "the lives of the people in QIA may represent what Pym imagined could happen to aging office workers like herself who didn't have a sister, a cat, English Literature and the Anglican Church to comfort and sustain them."
Bellemere - your Eng. Prof friend had all the ingredients for contentment in retirement - Pym would have approved. :D And Sheila's got the daughter, the cat and loves to read....PLUS -her computer gives her access to others, whenever she wanst some contact.
The August Quartet, we are told, did not read, they had no pets - no relatives, except Edwin - and were not members of any social organization - only Edwin attended church services. I'd like to hear what you thought of Marcia's cremation service. To me, that was as sad as the retirement party. I can't imagine what it would have been like if not for Edwin's efforts. Hmmm,perhaps Edwin is the book's protagonist, then? I can't see Letty, Sally. Not strong enough a presence in the book - though she is trying to cope and keeps herself looking nice...
Ursa, do you suppose we find Marcia so exasperating because we realize that she needed help, but believe in her basic right to not eat if she made the decision not to? Are we convinced that she did that? Or did she just waste away in her solitude...making no decision at all...about whether to eat or not.
What touched me most was to read how she responded to the slightest gestures of care from others - Letty offering her tea, the nurse in the hospital calling her "dear" - and was it Norman who encouraged her to sit and talk with the four even if she didn't want dessert. We're told she softened at the invitation...
Could Janice have noted her emaciated appearance and called in someone from the health department or medical services? Could the young doctor who did the post-operative checkup who noticed her loss of weight have referred her immediately for further evaluation? I agree, you can't force someone to eat when they have decided they wanted to die, but no one knows if that's what Marcia did.
What would YOU have done? Is there anyone in your acquaintance who is alone, who would appreciate recognition - a kind word? What do you think of this idea as a way of taking the edge off the glum feelings we seem to be sharing -
Some time during the next few days, let's send a card, or take a plant...a loaf of pumpkin bread, a special tea blend - to someone who is alone. And as Barbara suggests, the greatest gift of all - sit and listen. Wouldn't that be a positive way to deal with some of this exasperation we are feeling today?
Post by: JudeS on November 19, 2010, 02:00:19 PM
"He presumed that he and Edwin would be sharing the cost of the meal between them, Letty being a woman, and Norman something a litttle less than the kind of man one might expect to treat one to lunch".
The question that occurred to me was ,Did the author like her characters or have any real empathy for them?
If she didn't that might explain why this book is so hard for some of us to like. Usually when an author shows understanding and empathy for a protagonist we enter into the same emotions. I could site other examples for her disparaging remarks but I would like to know what others think.
Post by: JoanP on November 19, 2010, 02:39:41 PM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
| Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15 Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20 Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter Nov. 21 - 30 Final Thoughts & Happy Thanksgiving to all | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/quartetcover.jpg) |
Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
Nov. 11-15 Chapters 1 - 11
Nov. 11-15 Chapters 1 - 11
1. Here we have four very different characters, each important to the development of the story. Does any one of the four stand out more than the others? Which one made the most impression on you?
2. How does this office foursome view one another?
3. This book is set in the 1970's and written almost 20 years after Excellent Women. Does anything initially make you aware of that?
4. Do you find this a different type of book compared to Excellent Women? Do the two have similar qualities?
How would you compare Midred Lathbury with Letty Crowe?
5. Have you noted any of the references to "autumn" in these chapters? What is the feeling these references convey?
Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement
Nov. 16-20 Chapters 12 - Final Chapter
Nov. 16-20 Chapters 12 - Final Chapter
1. Do you agree most retirement parties are depressing? "Why does one feel sorry for men who retire, not women," Pym asks. What will they DO after retirement? Have Letty or Marcia given any thought to this question? Are they looking forward to it?
2. Who is the protagonist here? Is there one?
3. Marcia has certainly declined since retirement. But what about the others? Do you notice any changes in them, for better or for worse?
4. Norman is frequently referred to as an "odd little man" by those he meets for the first time. Why do you suppose that iis? Why do you think he went to Marcia's house, but did not make himself known?
5. Do you think the two men exhibit more concern for Marcia and Letty than the women do for them? Why would Marcia leave her house to Norman? Will he keep it?
6. Did you ever anticipate Marcia's demise? What effect did her cremation service have on the other three? On you?
7. What effect did Marjorie's character have on the story?
8. If you had to name the most uplifting scene in the book, what would it be? The most humorous?
Additional Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration - The Retirement
Nov. 21 - 30 Final Comments - Happy Thanksgiving!
Nov. 21 - 30 Final Comments - Happy Thanksgiving!
1. Why do you think Barbara Pym chose "Quartet in Autumn" as the title for this book? Do you feel the four were activing "in concert" with one another?
2. What do you see as Pym's intention in writing this novel? Do you see a rather bleak portrayal of four individuals or rather the satire of a society that limits their retirement prospects? Does the author exhibit sympathy towards her characters?
3. Do you think the differences in tone between Excellent Women and Quartet in August are due to the ages of the unmarried women in each book or the periods in which they live?
4. Would you be interested in reading another of Pym's earlier novels? If so, which one?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/); "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!) (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf)
***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/ExcellentWomen_Pym.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in Autumn )
Post by: JoanP on November 19, 2010, 02:42:33 PM
Post by: JoanK on November 19, 2010, 02:58:51 PM
You have hit the nail on the head! If I described my life, it would sound terribly boring to others, but IU've never been happier. The difference between this book and the others is not so much the lives they are leading, but the way they (and more-- the way the author) FEELS about the lives they are leading. All the ingrediants that Mildred had in her life are available to the four in Quartet, but they do not choose them. That is why the ending (I feel) is upbeat. Norman and Letty, perhaps for the first time, realize that they have choices. That they can influence their world.
Perhaps it is too late for them to make choices that would make their world a happy one. All of the ingrediants mentioned in the post above (except a sister) are available to them. But they are not used to choosing them, as Mildred of EW clearly is.
Post by: JoanK on November 19, 2010, 03:20:18 PM
If it were an American novel, the same thing could have been done, and we would have responded (perhaps without realizing what we were responding to). The US is very proud of being an open society, but there are all kinds of subtle (or not-so-subtle) reminders of social status. The "top" status (the "old money families") are not as visable as the English peerage, in fact they seem to go to pains to keep themselves unobtrusive. Flamboyant expressions of wealth or style are left to "new money".
Remember, the peers are just families who made their money in Henry VIII time and were rewarded with a peerage. But over time, they have aquired a life style and sense of entitlement to match their position. I imagine there are no peerages left to hand out, in the US, it is still possible to become "old money" in only a few generations.
Post by: PatH on November 19, 2010, 05:43:05 PM
Presumably it's the class difference that makes Father G. not expect Norman to treat, so that's one more bit of gentle humor.
"He presumed that he and Edwin would be sharing the cost of the meal between them, Letty being a woman, and Norman something a little less than the kind of man one might expect to treat one to lunch".
I enjoy these references when I catch them, and I'm sure glad we have rosemarykaye and Tom to straighten us out. Even though I read a lot of British books, it's hard for me to sort out. A long time ago Nancy Mitford wrote an article supposedly demystifying some class indicators of pronunciation, word choice, and behavior. When she got to a word that told you something depending on whether it rhymed with "pass" or "gas", I knew I was in trouble, because here, "pass" and "gas" rhyme.
Post by: pedln on November 20, 2010, 12:30:07 PM
Sally, I agree with you. Depressing it is and although I’ve been reading sections, and garnering more insights than previously, I certainly don’t want to read it again. Though I don’t quite agree with Jude. She may or may not have had empathy for her characters. She wrote what she observed, about people she knew.
Quote
What would YOU have done? Is there anyone in your acquaintance who is alone, who would appreciate recognition - a kind word? What do you think of this idea as a way of taking the edge off the glum feelings we seem to be sharing –
JoanP, a thoughtful gift is almost always appreciated, but interference is another matter. I think often of my good friend DorothyN who died just about five years ago. Never married, no family in town, but many friends who cared about her. In her 90’s, she got into trouble with her driving – too fast, no insurance , etc. Enough trouble to bring her to the attention of the courts. They said she needed a guardian, and at one point it was going to be a local stranger. Fortunately a niece who lived about 5 hours away was appointed. (Another friend and I went to that meeting and did our best to see that that was the outcome.) Long story short – she fell, broke her hip, had to leave her home and recoup in the nursing home. Hated it, wanted to go home. Got pneumonia, went to hospital, said she wasn’t going back to the nursing home. She didn’t. She died.
My long-winded point here is that this is a woman who wanted to live in her home, no matter what. People would say, “she shouldn’t live there by herself. What if she burns the house down.” My answer – “So? She knows she’s old, forgetful, and willing to take the consequences. Leave her be.” Of course, the hip ended that.
When she got to a word that told you something depending on whether it rhymed with "pass" or "gas", I knew I was in trouble, because here, "pass" and "gas" rhyme.
Good grief PatH, now you’ve got me wondering which was “ahs” and which was “ass.”
Sorry to be so rambling. Driving 900 miles in two days will do that to you.
Post by: pedln on November 20, 2010, 12:36:12 PM
PatH, I tried to quote you, but whenever I tried, the whoe post turned blue.
Post by: JoanP on November 20, 2010, 12:56:58 PM
Look up at the top line on your screen - the browser line. Now look all the way over to the right - the first button. It looks like a torn piece of paper. That's the compatibility button.. Click it.
But don't click it in the middle of a post or you'll lose our work. Now try to post something...
Let me know if this works - or not? You shouldn't have to put up with that~
We're trying to beat the leaf truck - raking like mad. I'll be back this afternoon...
Post by: nlhome on November 20, 2010, 01:00:12 PM
Post by: JudeS on November 20, 2010, 01:11:27 PM
You asked did I feel that the author didn't like her characters in EW.
No I didn't feel that way. But almost twenty years had passed in the author's life. When she wrote QIA she was ill with cancer and had been quite depressed for many years.
Wether you like it or not this is not the same person. Actually the author in QIA has less hope for her characters.She is at the end of her life and some bitterness must seep in, if not spleen. She is living with her sister. Nowhere have I read how they got along or what her sisters personality was like.
The author never married or had children. Her books are her legacy to the futurre after her demise. Perhaps she is saying
live freely and wildly while you are young because, alas, old age is not much fun.
I don't feel that way but I think she did.
Post by: ursamajor on November 20, 2010, 02:07:22 PM
There isn't any answer but I believe we should make reasonable efforts to help people but leave them in peace if they reject that help. I know that I would enormously resent anyone trying to arrange my life for me. Only the old lose their legal rights to direct their own lives, no matter how bizaare their actions may see to others.
Marcia may not have starved herself consciously, but what on earth did she have to live for? Asking Letty to share her house might have given her some sort of future, but after the original impulse she shuddered at the thought; after all Letty had interfered in her life by giving her a bottle of milk and the bottle was the wrong kind! So unsuitable!
Post by: JoanK on November 20, 2010, 02:48:53 PM
Living with other people requires a lot of skill in the art of give and take. People who live alone all their lives don't acquire it (or perhaps prefer NOT to acquire it, as Mildred clearly did).
Of course, living alone requires a lot of skill, too -- in the art of self determination. People like me who have always lived with others don't have those skills.
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 20, 2010, 04:35:51 PM
We left our parents home - change - many of us married - change - we certainly never experienced childbirth or caring for another till we had our fist baby - some of us changed the town, the state, the part of the country and for some even the part of the world where we set up our home and learned the shopping, cooking, making new friends etc. Those of us who have had jobs there was a change in status, change maybe even in the employment or company we associated therefore, a change in company culture - those who had children faced another change when they left home, some married so another family member to get to know and include – changes when parents die and close friends die - on and on it goes.
And maybe that is it - there are bright spots in our lives - times when we felt at one with the world and we believed we had meaning - with change our meaning is altered - it sounds to me like regardless if we lived 30 years with someone or if we lived 30 years alone - if we worked out of the house for 30 years or raised a family and maybe a garden - when the change came we either lost our companion - or we had to grow another garden in different soil - you get the picture.
Wasn't there a book popular about 25 years ago about the 7 year time frame encapsulating phases of our lives when typically certain happenings are common - the author was something like Sheehy - seems to me the phases stopped at about age 65 -
Well I bet we can all remember the energy and activities we engaged in at the drop of a hat, the ease we had of finding and making new friends when we were 65 as compared to 72 and then another set of changes at 79 and still another at 86.
Few are writing about the adventures of these milestones - we are all lumped together - hmmm almost reminds me of years ago whites couldn't tell the difference between black folks, all Mexican folks nor Asian folks. They are still lumped as minorities - while we now have the erstwhile experience of lumping - regardless of huge differences in interests and needs over a 20 to 25 year time span we are lumped as the elderly, the aged or seniors, retirees.
But more important most of us are not prepared to look at the changes in our lives after age 65 other than as if we were sliding down a coal chute into helpless powerless losses - we want to stay or recapture who we were at another earlier age –
I do not think there is anything published that addresses the many glories of the various changes that happen every 7 years after the age of 65. The wisdom that we may only have acquired because we’ve been there done that - and how about the gut wrenching adventure of buying alone a big ticket item, or learning how to deal successfully with house and vehicle repairs, cooking for one versus two, how to invest - in the past we may have had a partner who shared some of these tasks. If we live on into our 90s, we may have to change again where we live and with whom we live. Can you see Pym’s gang of four in their late 80s or early 90s?
And so, I am thinking how can we look at these expected life changes as we did when we were kids? As kids everything we did was exploring; testing ourselves as well as, the new object or experience; seeking the beautiful; play-acting, putting ourselves as if in place of something or someone. With each grade level we were busy redefining our identity, taking on new rituals of community.
We could look at our ‘things’ today as if toys that we used as kids that improved our sense of mastery. And yes, it was hard to get rid of a toy but with time we sorted through and only kept the toys with the most memory or we decided some kid needed Christmas and we no longer needed that toy.
We could approach the phases of aging like kids before they learn society expects a work ethic rather than a play ethic. And so your post suggests to me - why question how and with whom we lived for 30 years – either we choose to try something new and give it our all or not and then if not, we find an alternative to keep what we cherish while we strike out for yet another 7 year phase in our lives.
This book is opening my mind – it came along at the right time – I have been reading and reading all sorts of books about retirement – From Jimmy Carter to ‘Outrageous Old Women’.
Pym’s characters are gay or sad sacks and thank goodness, they are make believe so I can say sad sack out loud rather than think it for fear of hurting someone – but my word… And certainly, the sad sack characters make it easy for us to dwell on all the sad sacks we have known in our lifetime – However, because of their sad sack approach to the next phases of their life it is helping me distill what I have been struggling with for months.
Regardless how conveniently located my house I really do NOT need a 4 bedroom 2 living room house that some family would love since it is located across from a large, park like campus for both the elementary and middle school. I have also had the dismay of trying 5 different cleaning services in the past 2 years and each has stolen stuff including 6 place settings of good china – the maids that come 2 or more it is easy but the one that came alone I was shocked to find all my nail equipment scissors and files taken – I cannot depend any longer an outside help so I need to get serious about change – the big question – WHERE – I need a garden so we go from there…and I too do not do well nor do I really want to re-learn as you Joan point out 'the art of give and take' in order to successfully live with someone – been alone now since ’87.
Well I have written a tome – but my thoughts are a million a minute – thanks for the space to write them out.
Post by: PatH on November 20, 2010, 07:37:48 PM
This feeds into JoanK's comment about the ending. Norman and Letty see that they have the power of choice, and maybe they will even make something of it.
Post by: Tom in Cantab on November 20, 2010, 07:59:13 PM
Joan P
She is living with her sister. Nowhere have I read how they got along or what her sisters personality was like.
The author never married or had children. Her books are her legacy to the future after her demise. Perhaps she is saying
live freely and wildly while you are young because, alas, old age is not much fun.
Barbara and Hilary were by all accounts best friends, and after Barbara's death Hilary worked tirelessly to promote and preserve her sister's literary legacy. Hilary Pym Walton was more extroverted than her somewhat shy older sister. Barbara's first published novel, Some Tame Gazelle (begun in the 1930s, published in 1950) prophetically portrays two middle-aged spinster sisters based on herself and her sister contentedly living together. Barbara wrote one more book after QIA, A Few Green Leaves that is more similar to her early works and contains references to many characters from earlier novels, including Miss Clovis's funeral. Her lifelong friend Robert Liddell wrote:
"This is Barbara’s farewell to her readers, revised not long before her death and published shortly after it. A gentle, kindly book with less of the melancholy that marked the two novels that preceded it,… [it was] written after Barbara’s rediscovery and in the certainty of publication. It has, perhaps for this reason, a resumed cheerfulness, although she knew she could not have long to live."
Post by: JoanP on November 20, 2010, 10:10:08 PM
Tom, it's good to know that Pym's farewell to her readers was not Quartet in Autumn - especially since you wrote that many of the Pymites avoid Quartet when it is being discussed by the Society.
I can't say that I understand how she pulled it off though -how did she "resume her early cheerfulness" in A Few Green Leaves
Quote
"A gentle, kindly book with less of the melancholy a resumed cheerfulness, although she knew she could not have long to live.".
Barbara...I read your post with interest - "there are bright spots in our lives - times when we felt at one with the world and we believed we had meaning" So, do you think the fact that Pym learned her books were being published, read and appreciated provide the "bright spot" necessary to overcome the mood of Quartet?
Post by: JoanP on November 20, 2010, 11:15:30 PM
Quote
'Marcia may not have starved herself consciously, but what on earth did she have to live for?' Ursa
'It's hard to know when we are interfering and when we are helping sometimes. " nlhome
You both sum up our frustration in a nutshell. But was Marcia's death Pym's whole story? Granted it was dismaying and has our full attention. But were all of the characterizations this depressing?
Can we consider two of the other characters - Mrs. Pope - and Marjorie and how they were different from Letty and Marcia...
Post by: marcie on November 20, 2010, 11:24:56 PM
In response to a couple of earlier posts about social class, I'm going to recommend two outstanding papers from the Pym Society archives, both by Tim Burnett. The first paper includes a discussion of the names of the characters in QIA, and may be found at http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett03.html (http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett03.html). If you like this, Tim presented a second paper in 2005 that you can read here http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett05.html (http://www.barbara-pym.org/burnett05.html)
Finally, I'm going to recommend a paper describing how a professor taught QIA to college students. This one is on Google Books, and a few pages are missing, but you can read most of it, including the brilliant close reading of the very first paragraph of Quartet. (In one of Barbara's notebooks now in the Bodleian Library archives, she wrote "Do their hair!!") This is also an example of Pym's skill as a writer; while the narrative flows smoothly and the dialogue is always natural, there is never a wasted word or comma, and every modifier speaks volumes. Here's the link: http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZH3BunpEK8C&lpg=PP1&dq=all%20this%20reading&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url
(http://books.google.com/books?id=5ZH3BunpEK8C&lpg=PP1&dq=all%20this%20reading&pg=PA194#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Tom, I agree that those articles are outstanding. I appreciate the links.
I'm not feeling as "depressed" about the characters as most of you seem to be. I think I'm focusing less on what actually happens and more on the humorous descriptions and inner dialogs that we get to hear. I'm seeing this as a comedy of manners where how things are presented might be more significant than what happens. I might be misreading but I can see a balance between a presentation that shows humor as well as the hard facts of life.
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 21, 2010, 01:27:46 AM
I also looked up to find out what book did receive the Booker in '77 - Paul Scott for Staying On - another retirement story. This time a Colonel in India who was forced to retire when India became Independent. Read a little - the book is on-line - more exotic with lots more 'sins' of the flesh along with guilt and death and manipulation. Would have to read the entire book to get a flavor for why it was chosen over Quartet in Autumn.
As to if, her success helped Barbara Pym feel better or good about herself - I do not know much about her except for what I have recently read. Sounds like Tom would have a better idea how she viewed her life. From what I read there was a 15-year period just preceding the publication of this book when no publisher would accept her work.
As to if her own life is entwined in the story - I am no longer sure what an author is including - there is the whole philosophy 'the death of the author' that suggests an author writes to make a story work rather than it being an outpouring of his or her life experience.
Earlier Joan, you asked who is the protagonist. – Letty has been mentioned as well as Marcia. They all seem to be so separate from each other with no one of the four the touchstone for all four – that was when an idea hit – I wonder.
You know how a pin ball has a rubber knob that balls hit and bounce off one way or another - I am wondering if like that rubber knob retirement sits in the middle like a big Rubber Buddha and retirement is the protagonist – we have books that include the place, scenery, location as a character so why not retirement as a character. They all bring with them their emotional and health baggage as well as, their individual economic situation which is typical of any character bouncing off any protagonist, or meeting another character in a story.
Edwin appears to befriend retirement – he makes a life for himself – he has been alone after his wife died so he knows how to take up major change in his life.
Letty sees retirement as her chance for freedom – She had to be like a parent to herself, keeping a low profile while working however, once she figured out how to be a friend with retirement she came alive pursuing an active role in making plans rather than like a humble city mouse being grateful that the country mouse would make room for her.
Norman I have decided is a curmudgeon – he was a curmudgeon while he was working and remains one arm and arm with retirement – he reminds me of what we think of as a tight Scotsman – tight with his money, time, emotions – when he bounced off the knob called retirement he lost from the office the small caring kindnesses they exchanged.
Marcia’s life was sucked from her bones by retirement – she needed the structure of the office. Her own body became the enemy to her inner life – an ego that never seemed to have been formed.
This book on the short list for the Booker has to be more than the traditional character study within a plot – I think the story is structured so that readers bounce off the rubber Buddha called retirement as easily as Pym’s characters.
Writers typical of modern writing use characters to tell the story as if they are the disjointed part of a greater whole therefore, I am seeing the Pym’s quartet as a quartet playing music – the quartet is an ensemble of sounds describing four textures within a four part harmonic thesis.
Modernists write about a fragmented society, disempowerment, the isolation of poverty, inner cities- the modernist, unlike postmodernist reject character and plot as meaningless even rejecting meaning as a hopeless delusion.
I can see Barbara Pym writing a readable novel with one foot in character description and meaning along with the other foot in this modernistic four-textured harmony of some contentment, some hopelessness, all the characters a fragmentation of community including some isolation and disempowerment. And I will go one further that retirement is the book's central character.
Post by: salan on November 21, 2010, 05:01:56 AM
Sally
Post by: ursamajor on November 21, 2010, 08:43:13 AM
Something we have not looked at is the influence of society's perception of and response to the old. One of my triumphs was the response to my complaint a few years ago to the hospital administrator that everyone in the admissions department assumed that anyone over 65 was senile, mentally deficient, or both. I had an interesting conversation with the department head, and, on my last visit to the same hospital, found the situation completely different. All patients wer treated with respect and consideration!
I have had fewer experiences with change than most, I guess. I was married at 20 and am still married to the same man aftr 58 years. The changes in that relationship over time are remarkable, though.
The book Barbara mentions is Passages by Gail Sheehy, There is a more recent book called New Passages, written in 1995, which I plan to look for. I presume she extends the work past the ages she looked at before.
Post by: JudeS on November 21, 2010, 02:34:53 PM
To Tom for informing me about Pyms relationship with her sister. I breathed a sigh of relief when I heard that they were good friends.
Thanks to Barb StAubrey for broadening the subject and seeing retirement as the main focus rather than the characters.
But Barb, why choose all four main characters as such lonely people? Also Barb- why do you see retirement as a Buddha just sitting there getting fat and smiling in an enigmatic way?
I worked from age 15 and now I am finally retired. I have two great grandchildren and so as you may surmise I have led a very busy life with children, grandchildren, husband etc. When I retired this year I saw myself as finally escaping the bonds of responsibility and having time to do the things I never had time for.
All of my retired friends feel the same way. I guess that meeting Pym's characters through me for a loop because I have never met people like that. Have you?
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 21, 2010, 03:23:52 PM
What has been boiling around in my head is, these office workers reminded me more of 1950 than 1977 but then memory can play tricks and maybe there still were a large number of low paid office workers that today their jobs would be eliminated as we sort and keep track of a business operation on-line.
I am remembering when I first started to work as a Real Estate agent in 1980 and for about 10 years if a wife worked it was a very non-descript job so that her salary seldom helped the couple qualify for a larger mortgage and more important, young couples would buy houses with a lower price tag because it needed repairs and the biggie, because the wife with her lesser job could miss a day of work now and then or take off for a few months to open the house and be there while the various repair and remodeling work was scheduled. Now young folks want a perfect house that they can move in over a weekend, hang up their clothes and go to work on Monday morning. The education level of both is similar and the wife is making a significant salary.
That realization started my brain going - why do we call it retirement - when a young person 'graduates' college they leave behind their dependence on their parents with plans for their future - the parties celebrate not only what they have accomplished but the opening of a new phase in life.
Have you ever been to a company retirement party - death warmed over - the jokes are worse than the bachelor party jokes the night before his wedding. - It is as if the celebration is for a monster size loss rather than simply walking through a door to a new phase of life. Most retirement cards have folks lazing in a hammock or some other inane long-term fantasy-vacation style life.
It would be interesting to learn how much debt the college student carries upon graduation and compare that obligation to the lesser income for the retiree.
I am thinking we need to change the concept of retirement to graduation - graduation to another phase of life with different obligations and different goals and dreams to satisfy. Graduation with the adventure of choices that may or may not work out and we turn to a backup plan just like a college student who tries out various jobs and apartments with some going back to school for yet another degree. And so we go back to work to put a few more dollars in the coffer.
However, after I thought about analyzing the story that Barbara Pym wrote I am seeing it more as 'a piece' that is showing us several sides of retirement - as to the Buddha comparison - most Buddha statues that are popular is of a very large sitting man with a benign look or, as you say, 'enigmatic' look on his face - I do understand there are subtle messages according to how he holds his hands and arms and what he has in his hands etc. but I was not using the description in a religious way - only like a big immovable person without an opinion that you can see as having a non-threatening face or a dis-interested face or even as a face with a slight smile. Those interpretations is what I saw in Barbara Pym's thesis on retirement for those who had not achieved a high income during their work years.
Today, the closest thing to the dilemma of Pym's characters is among those elders who must choose a nursing home in which their choice is limited if they do not have the financial resources that some assisted-living homes require.
Post by: JoanK on November 21, 2010, 03:34:08 PM
An important point.
"Would have to read the entire book[Staying On] to get a flavor for why it was chosen over Quartet in Autumn,"
You may get your chance. It may well be a future discussion book.
You also made me think about this book as a quartet. I know of only one book that is written in imitation of a string Quartet (the A minor by Beethoven), "Point Counterpoint" by Aldous Huxley. Could Pym have had a similar musical interpretation in mind? There does not seem to be enough interaction among the characters to make good chamber music, but it bears thinking about.
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 21, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
"...Crome Yellow made me want to be a novelist myself. I don't suppose for a moment that I appreciated the book's finer satirical points, but it seemed to me funnier than anything I had read before , and the idea of writing about a group of people in a certain situation - in this case upper-class intellectuals in a country house - immediately attracted me...."
Having just read Staying On, I do think it was probably more deserving of the Booker prize than QIA (and I say that as a lifelong Pym enthusiast). I'm looking forward to discussing it at some point. I was viewing houses for sale in Edinburgh yesterday, and whenever I went into a bathroom all I could think about were Lucy and Tusker's twin "thunderboxes" at The Lodge in Pankot ;D
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on November 22, 2010, 08:34:40 AM
What a treat to come in this morning after taking a day off to celebrate granddaughter's third birthday!
So many new ideas - and different ways of looking at Barbara Pym's novel. I think we are finally getting to the reasons the book was shortlisted for the Booker prize. And yes, JoanK is right - we are looking forward to a discussion of the novel that was the winner in 1980 - Paul Scott's Staying On...in the coming year. You'll be hearing more about that in the near future.
Your recent posts begin to answer the second question in the heading which asks for your thoughts on Pym's intention when she wrote this novel. We'd love to hear what you think of what Marcie and Rosemary have posted -
From Marcie - - I'm not feeling as "depressed" about the characters as most of you seem to be. I think I'm focusing less on what actually happens and more on the humorous descriptions and inner dialogs that we get to hear. I'm seeing this as a comedy of manners where how things are presented might be more significant than what happens. I might be misreading but I can see a balance between a presentation that shows humor as well as the hard facts of life."
From Rosemary - quoting Barbara Pym herself - "...Crome Yellow made me want to be a novelist myself. I don't suppose for a moment that I appreciated the book's finer satirical points, but it seemed to me funnier than anything I had read before , and the idea of writing about a group of people in a certain situation - in this case upper-class intellectuals in a country house - immediately attracted me...."
And then Barbara's conclusion - this book is not really about one individual's choice about how to lead ones' life - but about retirement itself, (the main character of the book?) and the challenges, the choices it presents to everyone...single, married or somewhere in-between. Ursa - I don't know anyone who has been married for 58 years to the same man! I know who to come to for advice now! My husband's retirement was quite difficult - for me! ;)
"Choice" seems to be the mot du jour - running through most of your posts -
Joan K "All the ingrediants that Mildred had in her life are available to the four in Quartet, but they do not choose them. That is why the ending (I feel) is upbeat. Norman and Letty, perhaps for the first time, realize that they have choices. That they can influence their world."
Joan, don't you think Marjorie, who is the same age as Letty, is an example of this?
Pedln - "interference is another matter" -
"- it's hard to know when we are interfering and when we are helping sometimes." nlhome
"There isn't any answer but I believe we should make reasonable efforts to help people but leave them in peace if they reject that help" Ursa
- Amen! Choices - provide them with choices! I also feel that that presented with choices, both Letty and Marcia responded. It's their perceived lack of choice that limits them. Will Letty accept Marjorie's invitation to bring "the boys" out to the country? Doesn't really matter...she now has the choice!
Rosemary - do you have any thoughts on Pym's comment which you cited? - "the idea of writing about a group of people in a certain situation - in this case upper-class intellectuals in a country house - immediately attracted me...." Was this comment made in reference to Quartet in Autumn?
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 22, 2010, 08:54:00 AM
Today I let my daughter sleep in because she had been so late back from Glasgow last night, then I drove her into school about 11, popped into her library, then tootled back - the kick I get out of things like that, just being out and about in the daytime, is really quite tremendous! If I had still been at work I would have had to have forced her out of bed at 7am, driven her back in heavy rush hour traffic, then rushed into the office and started on all of that. I don't miss it one jot - I still keep in touch with the people I liked there, and I now have time to see my other friends, do my gardening, wander round the library, go swimming, go for walks, etc etc, without constantly watching the clock. i consider myself blessed.
R
Post by: JoanP on November 22, 2010, 09:03:00 AM
Good morning, Rosemary - your post makes me think of Letty and Marcia and how they spent their free time now that they don't have to go in to work.
Let's talk more today about the title Pym finally decided to name this book! At some point she changed it from "Four Point Turn." JoanK and Barbara have turned our attention to the meaning of the word "quartet" - Barbara asks - "Could Pym have had a similar musical interpretation in mind? There does not seem to be enough interaction among the characters to make good chamber music, but it bears thinking about."
I read somewhere that "quartet music was traditionally intended primarily for the private enjoyment of amateur musicians rather than for public performance." In their own way, do you think the quartet makes enjoyable music together? But not so much when alone? The problem of loneliness seems not to have begun with retirement perhaps - but rather not really having a life outside of the office while still working?
Post by: JudeS on November 22, 2010, 10:30:15 AM
And then there are "The Four Quartets" of T.S.Eliot. who says before the long poem
"The way upward and the way downward are the same".
From Part 1
Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.
What might have been is an abstraction
Remaining a perpetual possibility
Only in a world of speculation.
The discussion has stimulated my brain but I would not like to spend time with the characters in the book in my real life.
Post by: pedln on November 22, 2010, 12:32:50 PM
Quote
Edwin appears to befriend retirement – he makes a life for himself – he has been alone after his wife died so he knows how to take up major change in his life.
Barbara, I’m glad you brought up Edwin. You say he knows how to take up major change. True. And I also think that towards the end he finally that he has shown some change in himself. Edwin is the one who takes on responsibility for Marcia at the hospital. He claims he’s her closest relative. He also is the one who makes her funeral arrangements and provides a means for the others to get to her funeral. He's showing concern for others.
Quartet and Four-Point Turn –Quartet in Autumn is, for me, an easier phrase to accept and understand than Four Point turn. And it is so fitting, so appropriate, so descriptive. A group, a foursome, a team in their declining years – as Jude says, there are many quartets --but did they ever work in harmony? We really don’t see that until the very end, when they are a threesome. But even in death, Marcia is very much a presence. At first I thought the musical quartet analogy was a bit of a stretch, but I can see it now. Even more so know that BP enjoyed reading Alduous Huxley, perhaps even including Point Counterpoint.
(WORD 2010 and my laptop give me jitters, must stop before there is even more gobbledigook. Supposedly I’m typing this in “compatibility mode.”
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 22, 2010, 12:47:38 PM
"The influence of Aldous Huxley is all-pervasive, though the naivety of outlook occasionally makes it read more like a novel about Chelsea written by Daisy Ashford."
Hazel Holt also remarks:
"The novel also gives us some intimations of the complex, contradictory and generally impossible things she looked for in a young man and explains why she was so often disappointed."
Rosemary
Post by: nlhome on November 22, 2010, 05:27:20 PM
As for Quartet, I think a theme is "aloneness" - Each of the 4 is alone so much, even when in the office. They seem to have little walls erected around them, with doors that stick closed much of the time.
Someone here said they would lnot have liked to know the characters - I think I would have liked Letty.
Post by: JoanP on November 22, 2010, 05:58:59 PM
She wrote aboutfriends living together in the country. - Even if that quote did not refer directly to this quartet, did it occur to you that the four of them would be better off living together than in separate dwellings once they retired? I've often thought that if it came to it, I'd prefer to live in a house with some friends rather than live alone or even with my sons' families. But there is a such a strong desire for solitude in these characters. Their "aloneness" seems to be something they cherish....or do they?
I just checked my library - they have three copies of Some Tame Gazelle - one is checked out. I plan to pick up a copy on Friday.
Pedln - still jumping even in the compatibility mode? How about you, Rosemary - did you try it?
Jude, the TSE verses give much to think about...
Quote
Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future
And time future contained in time past.
Nlhome - I'd like to have spent some time with Marcia - but would try to avoid her stare. There's so much going on behind those spectacles.
Post by: Tom in Cantab on November 22, 2010, 08:13:53 PM
Quote
But at least it made one realise that life still held infinite possibilities for change.The changes may be tiny and the choices sometimes wrong, but making them empowers us.
The last lines of A Few Green Leaves, which she knew would be her final work, are
Quote
...for Emma was going to stay in the village herself. She [an anthropologist by training] could write a novel and even, as she was beginning to realise, embark on a love affair which need not necessarily be an unhappy one.So tentative ("was beginning to realise", "not necessarily an unhappy one"), yet life-affirming.
Tom
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 22, 2010, 10:58:06 PM
My reaction to looking at making 'tiny choices' best describing Barbara Pym's writing reminds me that maybe we are better comparing her writing to Anna Karenina, who struggles with her love stronger than her duty and her possibilities limited by society's perception of her and how the men in her life regard her therefore, leaving her few possibilities with suicide her choice. Or, even Kafka, where possibilities and choice making seem always beyond the characters grasp versus, the often compared writer Jane Austen, whose female characters were bound by more constrictive social mores and possibilities yet, choices were seldom tentative and it did not take suicide to bind Jane Austen's characters into community. In QofA, it was only after the death of Marcia that community among the Quartet emerged.
I am wondering if yes, as you point us in the right direction, there are sentences with tentative sounding adjectives and adverbs however, the choice by the author to change the circumstances used to give the characters a different perspective was rather a big, dramatic climax. Marcia's death came quietly but look how we readers struggled trying to come to terms with her choice and the choices of the other characters that may have contributed to Marcia's death. We did not struggle as if walking on thin tissue paper, our emotions were in crisis. Do we know, was this the reaction Barbara Pym wanted to achieve?
I hear quiet and I wonder if that is a technique used by Barbara Pym to accentuate the big bold dramatic event – I am remembering that play of quiet versus, bold drama between Mildred and the Napier's. I see Barbara Pym capable of both writing techniques, the quiet tentative and the bold drama. She really was quite an accomplished writer wasn't she?
Post by: JudeS on November 22, 2010, 11:59:37 PM
I am so glad you mentioned Kafka. Through much of this book I kept feeling that this is like "The Castle" by Kafka. I didn't say anything but the feeling of people striving and never getting anywhere was so Kafkaish. Also working in an office and not telling the reader what the people do is an idea straight out of Kafka. Meaningless busywork all unknown and unimportant to humankind and somehow even the four in this book must have known that they were filling their time with nothing but striving. No meaning.A trial.
Hopelessness. But some of you see hope pushing up tiny green sprouts from this wasteland (Another poem of T.S.Eliot "The Wasteland"). Yet neither Kafka nor Eliot leave me with such hopelessness as Pym does.
Post by: JoanP on November 23, 2010, 10:13:03 AM
Just time for a few thoughts this morning. From your recent posts, I am sensing a difference in the way we perceive Pym's message in Quartet.in Autumn. (We need to talk more about Barbara's observation - "it was only after the death of Marcia that community among the Quartet emerged." There's something about the "in Autumn" in the title that seems to complete the meaning of the "quartet.")
Jude has written before of Marcia's depression - and perhaps the author's depression as she writes through her terminal illness:
"...neither Kafka nor Eliot leave me with such hopelessness as Pym does." Jude
But Tom speaks of hopefullness:
"Her novels typically end quietly but hopefully, in a gradual decrescendo" Tom
If Pym is writing a satire of the seventies, of the welfare state and its shortcomings, and manages to get her readers thinking of the need for change, while ending on an note that implies "the infinite possibilities for change" - then I think she is indeed, as Barbara observes -
"quite an accomplished writer."
OK, I challenge anyone to diagram the above sentence! And if you do, you win a prize! Sorry I am out of time, or I'd break it up to four different sentences. I need Marcie - she's my best editor!
Post by: marcie on November 23, 2010, 10:48:55 AM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on November 23, 2010, 01:07:50 PM
Quote
There's something about the "in Autumn" in the title that seems to complete the meaning of the "quartet."
For me there is something about how a poet can throw a light on the tender mercies of a story teller. P.K. Page captures some of what Barbara Pym is identifying using 'Autumn' in her title, a well thought through metaphor on many levels.
Autumn
~ by P. K. Page
Whoever has no house now will never have one.
Whoever is alone will stay alone
Will sit, read, write long letters through the evening
And wander on the boulevards, up and down...
- from Autumn Day, Rainer Maria Rilke
Its stain is everywhere.
The sharpening air
of late afternoon
is now the colour of tea.
Once-glycerined green leaves
burned by a summer sun
are brittle and ochre.
Night enters day like a thief.
And children fear that the beautiful daylight has gone.
Whoever has no house now will never have one.
It is the best and the worst time.
Around a fire, everyone laughing,
brocaded curtains drawn,
nowhere-anywhere-is more safe than here.
The whole world is a cup
one could hold in one's hand like a stone
warmed by that same summer sun.
But the dead or the near dead
are now all knucklebone.
Whoever is alone will stay alone.
Nothing to do. Nothing to really do.
Toast and tea are nothing.
Kettle boils dry.
Shut the night out or let it in,
it is a cat on the wrong side of the door
whichever side it is on. A black thing
with its implacable face.
To avoid it you
will tell yourself you are something,
will sit, read, write long letters through the evening.
Even though there is bounty, a full harvest
that sharp sweetness in the tea-stained air
is reserved for those who have made a straw
fine as a hair to suck it through-
fine as a golden hair.
Wearing a smile or a frown
God's face is always there.
It is up to you
if you take your wintry restlessness into the town
and wander on the boulevards, up and down.
Great choice of book for this time of year Joan - Thanks for guiding us through this conversation.
Here is a photo of a November wildflower that blankets our roadside this time of year as a Thanksgiving card to y'all - Thanks for sharing - It was a grand conversation - http://www.texaswildflowerpictures.com/wildflowers/engelmann.jpg
We know that Christmas is on its way when we see the Spanish Dagger's in bloom - http://corditecountryshownotes.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/spanish-dagger.jpg?w=570
Blessings to y'all this Thanksgiving and like many of you I am off to prepare the traditional pies, Turkey and 'fixins' - I must clean the windows - the deer look in to see what I am doing each evening and like any animal they smudge the windows - the holidays is when I 'Spring' clean since my Spring is busy plus, the garden takes up any remaining time in Spring. Thanks again, great discussion!
Post by: rosemarykaye on November 23, 2010, 03:27:16 PM
Thanks again,
Rosemary
Post by: JoanP on November 23, 2010, 03:33:22 PM
TWO BY BARBARA PYM - November Bookclub Online
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
Excellent Women
Quartet in Autumn
British author, Barbara Pym, is often compared by her readers to Jane Austen. She creates a 20th century society with roots in Victorian times - but with humor, a very dry humor. Both Pym and Austen were concerned with the marriage of their heroines, before they become "spinsters." (Note that Austen and Pym never married.) It is said that the primary subject of a novel of manners, or of all comedy, is marriage. In order to achieve this, Austen must marry off her heroine at the end of the novel. Will this be the case with Pym?
The first of her two novels, Excellent Women, written in 1952, considers Mildred Lathbury's decision - either marry without the romance or risk remaining a spinster. The woman is 31 years old!
The second book, Quartet in Autumn, written in 1977, short-listed for the Man Booker prize in 1980, considers four unmarried co-workers, as they face retirement years, making do with limited resources. Pym is fascinated by the vision of life without emotional attachment and solitude.
| Discussion Schedule ~ Quartet in Autumn Nov. 11 - 15 Chapters 1-11 Nov. 16 - 20 Chapter 12 (The Retirement) - Final Chapter Nov. 21 - 30 Final Thoughts & Happy Thanksgiving to all | (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/excellentwomen_quartet/quartetcover.jpg) |
Some Topics from Quartet in Autumn for Your Consideration
4. Would you be interested in reading another of Pym's earlier novels? If so, which one?
Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/); "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!) (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf)
4. Would you be interested in reading another of Pym's earlier novels? If so, which one?
~~~
Related Links:Barbara Pym Biography (http://www.barbara-pym.org/biography.html); Barbara Pym Society (http://www.barbara-pym.org/); "Subversion from Behind a Teacup" by Catherine Wallace (a must-read!) (http://www.barbara-pym.org/wallace2002.html)
Hazel K. Bell's comprehensive Index of Barbara Pym's writings (http://www.barbara-pym.org/Pymwritingsindex.pdf)
***Readers' Guide questions for Excellent Women (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/ExcellentWomen_Pym.html)
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (ann.bartlett@att.net) (for Quartet in Autumn )
Post by: JoanP on November 23, 2010, 03:59:34 PM
Actually, both poems relate
Rilke's Autumn Day , written in 1900 and PK Page's in 1970 (I think that's right) - both relate directly to Pym's Quiet in Autumn, don't they?
Quote
Whoever has no house now will never have one.- from Autumn Day, Rainer Maria Rilke
Whoever is alone will stay aloneWill sit, read, write long letters through the evening
And wander on the boulevards, up and down...
I can believe that Barbara Pym was familiar with these poems. She loved poetry - remember she put an anthology of poetry on both Marcia and Letty's night stand?
Thank you so much, Barb! Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!
Post by: pedln on November 24, 2010, 02:21:23 PM
Autumn Day translations (http://www.thebeckoning.com/poetry/rilke/rilke4.html)
Quote
Autumn Day
Lord: it is time. The summer was immense.
Lay your long shadows on the sundials,
and on the meadows let the winds go free.
Command the last fruits to be full;
give them just two more southern days,
urge them on to completion and chase
the last sweetness into the heavy wine.
Who has no house now, will never build one.
Who is alone now, will long remain so,
will stay awake, read, write long letters
and will wander restlessly up and down
the tree-lines streets, when the leaves are drifting.
This entire discussion has been an exploration, and indeed, revealing, in that it shows so much of the author in the books. Would we have looked differently at this quartet if we had not known that the author herself was unmarried, that she had suffered rejection and serious illness, which prematurely took her life? Or if we had not known about her involvement with the church, had not been introduced to some of the intricacies of class in the Great Britain of that period? If we had not been introduced to her world?
Post by: JoanP on November 24, 2010, 05:06:26 PM
Honestly, I don't think so. Would be interested to hear what the rest of you think...
In the meantime, let's keep an eye on those pies in the oven - don't want dark crusts~
(http://www.myspacegraphicsandanimations.com/images/have-a-great-thanksgiving-pumpkin-piempkin.gif)
Post by: marcie on November 24, 2010, 08:43:22 PM
Post by: JoanP on November 30, 2010, 08:28:37 AM
I picked up a copy of "Some Tame Gazelle" - have only begun to read it...but find Pym's voice so familiar as she opens with comments on the embarrassing new curate from Belinda, one of the two sister spinsters who frequent the vicarage. Sister Harriet - the "plump elegant spinster in the middle fifties..."
I'm on the Pym Society email distribution - just yesterday I read this from one of the members... she comments on a Pym reference in a P.D. James novel. I will certainly be on the Pym-alert - and more Pym-knowlegeable in all future references to Barbara Pym, won't you? Here is her comment:
Quote
" I know that P.D. James has been referenced on this site previously. I had occasion to read one of her novels recently, A Taste for Death, that Dulcie had discarded and which I, currently with no book in hand, picked up.
My interest picked up when I came across a reference to Barbara Pym early on in the book, where the action involves one of the minor characters, a rather weak and ineffectual clergyman (aren't they all it seems) in whose church the murders had recently taken place.
"His most recent library book had been a Pym, he had read with envious disbelief the gentle and ironic story of a village parish where the curates were entertained, fed and generally spoilt by the female members of the congregation. Mrs McBride would soon put a stop to anything like that at St. Matthews. Indeed she had put a stop to it."
A few lines on, reflecting on a cake being received in his first week from a parishioner by the name of Ethel Jordan:
"One of Ethel Jordan's is it? You want to watch her, Father, an unmarried priest like you."
Eating it later: "...each mouthful became an act of shared indecency."
Post by: JoanP on November 30, 2010, 08:30:47 AM
Though we are putting the novels back on the shelf, I believe the memories will linger on. Please keep us informed in the Library on the doings of the Pym Society and the spring conference in MA, Bellemere. I believe Rosemary has found a home with us - Lucky us!
Thank you, each and every one!
Post by: marcie on November 30, 2010, 09:10:19 PM
Post by: PatH on December 01, 2010, 11:21:40 AM
Post by: PatH on December 01, 2010, 12:02:06 PM
Post by: rosemarykaye on December 01, 2010, 05:06:18 PM
Rosemary
PS - and guess what? today I finally sold my house! Now the househunting (in deep snow and ice) begins!
Post by: JoanK on December 02, 2010, 12:50:35 AM
TOM: now that you've found us, I hope you'll pull up a chair and stay.
PYM is a definite find. I think she'll be like Austen only in the sense that I'll read all her books many times and grumble that she didn't write more. Thanks to all of you for introducing me to her. Of course JoanP and Pedlin did their usual super job!
Post by: marcie on December 02, 2010, 10:45:09 AM
Post by: PatH on December 02, 2010, 02:01:54 PM
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 02, 2010, 02:37:29 PM
If not, will you have to move into a hotel or are there short term leases? I am assuming you have to be out of your current house by the end of the closing day unless you have arranged a lease back from the buyer -
Here, there is a difference in how legally a sale and purchase is handled in every state so that a broker cannot, without taking classes and passing tests, work residential brokerage in another state - it would be fascinating to learn the difference between how we transfer property and how it is done in Scotland.
I am sure you are more concerned with if the kitchen is large enough, if the bed will fit in the bedroom as you would prefer, how many repairs the house will require and where you will put your Christmas tree in years to come. Happy hunting...
Post by: PatH on December 02, 2010, 02:37:33 PM
She looks at Marcia, sees how Marcia should run her life, and is annoyed when Marcia doesn't follow her advice, but makes no effort to understand M. What a hoot!
Post by: rosemarykaye on December 02, 2010, 04:51:55 PM
When you agree to sell a house here, you make a binding contract (in England called "exchanging" and in Scotland "concluding the missives") - part of that contract is agreeing on a completion date (in Scotland, an "entry date") - on that date, you have to be out and your purchasers must pay the money, in return for which they get the keys. You can agree to buy your new house on the same day (subject to the sellers' co-operation of course), or you might agree to buy it later - if you do that, you end up having to put your furniture into store and maybe having to lease a flat or something to live in. Two of my friends have recently moved long distances - one to the south of England and one to Milan, Italy - they both decided to rent for a year before making a decision about buying. This gives you more flexibility, in that you can get used to the area, decide exactly where you want to live, etc, but of course it also costs you money. My friend who moved within the UK was lucky in that her husband's company was paying a relocation grant, but otherwise it is not cheap to rent, or to store furniture.
We haven't bought in Edinburgh yet, but I hope we will be able to get the keys to whatever we buy on the same day, or the day after, we move out of here. In order to make things easier for my younger daughter, I think she and I will stay up here until the Easter holiday - I am very fortunate in that I have a friend with a basement flat in her house that is currently unoccupied, so we will be able to stay in that (to rent commercially is not only prohibitively expensive, but also means a minimum 6 months' lease, which would not be much use for us) - but my husband will then be able to move into the new property, so that we are no longer paying the rent on the flat he currently has in Edinburgh. It's a wonderful flat right in the New Town (which isn't at all New), and we have all enjoyed having it, but it costs a fortune.
Anyway, that's the plan, and we all know what happens to the best-laid ones of those... :)
I qualified in law in England, and when I came to Scotland I had to requalify in Scots Law. Some things are more or less the same, but conveyancing is markedly different - however, I haven't done any since I took the exams, so I have no hands-on experience of it up here. When I went to the Law Society of Scotland in Edinburgh to sit my exams, I met a girl from America who had qualified there, then met her English husband and moved to England - requalified there - then he had got a job in Scotland and she was requalifying again. In between that she had had what was still a young baby. i don't know how she did it - I didn't study for the Scots law exams until my youngest child was in primary school, and that was bad enough!
despite being a (reluctant) lawyer, I am far more interested in the size of the kitchen, etc than all the paperwork - in fact I have a complete aversion to it when not in the office, and leave all the official letters unopened for my husband to deal with (I hate to admit this - but it's not that I can't understand all that stuff, i just don't want to have to think about it). I think it's interesting how your requirements in a house change over the years - I have become much more demanding than I used to be, and am very definite about the kitchen in particular, also the bathrooms and the views from the windows.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a house like the Ladies of Covington one? Sadly in Edinburgh that will never be, though there are compensations!
Rosemary
Post by: BarbStAubrey on December 02, 2010, 11:10:22 PM
Another difference - I am not a lawyer and in this state you are either a lawyer with clients paying your fees or a Real Estate Broker with clients paying your salary through a brokerage fee or commission. Texas made it illegal for lawyers to buy and sell receiving either a commission or a cut in the commission from a broker if they utilize those listings or list with the Board of Realtors, who financially support with dues and maintain the Multiple Listing Service. And so, the only property that a lawyer in this state can save on a brokerage fee is if they buy or sell as a For Sale By Owner. Yep, the Real Estate Commission is a powerful State committee in this state... ;)
Post by: PatH on December 03, 2010, 11:03:12 PM
And now I'm hooked on a new author.
Post by: Gumtree on December 04, 2010, 12:46:53 AM
Thanks to all for your insights - amazing how it amplifies the reading. Special thanks to Rosemary and Tom and of course, our DLs JoanP and Pedln who always do such a good job and make fielding everyone's ideas seem effortless which we all know is far from the truth.
Post by: JoanP on December 04, 2010, 10:20:12 PM
Quote
"I think she'll be like Austen only in the sense that I'll read all her books many times and grumble that she didn't write more." JoanK
JoanK,Gum - I'm reading "Some Tame Gazelle" right now - and loving it. Not dark at all. Our ladies (and Pym too?) are in their fifties in this novel - two sisters sharing a home. It is really funny - with a slight Pym-like edge. I can really recommend it to you.
Rosemary - you sold your house! At this time of year! I'm so happy for you. It's so difficult to live in a house that is on the market. You have to be staged and ready to show every single day, I know. Now you don't have to worry about it until after the holidays! Enjoy! Let's continue this holiday talk in the
Holiday Open House
(http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=105.0)
(http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=105.0)
Thanks, everyone! You're the best!
Post by: JoanP on December 07, 2010, 11:11:11 AM