Author Topic: Palace Thief (The) by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online  (Read 71344 times)

marjifay

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2015, 01:49:31 PM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online: July 7-31

The Palace Thief
by Ethan Canin






" I tell this story not for my own honor, for there is little of that here, and not as a warning, for a man of my calling learns quickly that all warnings are in vain..."


"For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught"....("My Way" sung by Frank Sinatra)


"This is a story without surprises..." (Mr. Hundert).


Topic #2: The Themes in The Palace Thief


Ethan Canin: The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll first call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.

-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?

-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put ALL of them up here so we can all discuss them.

----betrayal (ginny)

----nature vs. nurture (Frybabe)

----character and morals

----isolation (Halcyon)

----loss of innocence (Halcyon)

----power (Halcyon)

----retirement and old age (Topic du Jour 7/14

----

-Other questions raised by our readers:

----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)

----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)

----What is the climax of the book? Why?

----Which of the children was most injured my Mr Hundert's manipulating the grades? (BellaMarie)

-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.




Interesting Links:

Annotations for The Palace Thief from  Chulalongkorn University   *Spoiler: At the bottom of this list of annotations is a set of questions and a link to an interview with the author about what he intended, so if you don't like to see that type of thing at the outset and would rather think for yourself, don't read down that far. We can decide later if he actually did achieve what he intended to show or if he didn't.


Discussion Leader: Ginny



Sorry to be so late.  I just finished this story.  Have very much enjoyed reading all the posts in this discussion.

This story was one of the most interesting and yet the saddest I've  read in a long while.

At the beginning of Hundert's narrative, he says "That school was my life."  And it was so, as he had no family of his own, only  his "boys" at their reunion at the end of the story at Sedgewick Bell's fabulous estate.  No one deserved all this largess more than Bell, eh?  He certainly was the "palace thief."  Ironic that Bell became his own father.

As the story began it was interesting to note that all these students at St. Benedict's were there because of the success of their fathers and they were the fortunate elite who were expected to later rule in this country, either in large corporations, or universities, or as legislative members of Congress.  Of course there were no young women at that time, nor any poor students.  Hopefully, some of that money that the headmaster craved went for scholarships. 

As for the merits of their learning Roman history, I think it merely helped them realize what their goal in life was meant to be, that of becoming members of the Emperor's Club. 

Marj   
"Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a standstill."  Barbara Tuchman

ALF43

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2015, 02:16:38 PM »
Wow, one full day without posting and I'm lost here in this shuffle of characters and "character." I've just unpacked and have book in hand.  I reread some notes which I took when I first read this novella and the first says, "Man is insignificant and his efforts are in vain, compared to the forces of time and nature." I believe that that passage was in regards to the opening sonnet of Ozymandias.  Does this fact describe him? Did he become a shattered, ruined statue, himself; crumbling over the passage of time, much like the plaque on his wall communicated?
 I am hung up on this and fear I am beginning to feel sorry for the guy.  Did he see himself as the vain King Ramesses II? "Look upon my works, ye Mighty and despair!" In the first paragraph he (the narrator) admits that all warnings are in vain.

I feel your pain Ginny with your Miss Thomas.  My nemesis (and I was hers as well) was a Sister Mary Thomas, in nursing school.  She told me that she would basically mold me into what she wanted but I won't begin to elaborate on her treatment of me because you wouldn't believe that sisters of "mercy" could have gotten away with these atrocious things. This was in the early 60's, not even the 40's- classroom management and atmosphere, she did not care about, one bit.
  Perchance that is why I dislike Mr. H. It hadn't resonated with me why I might bear malice toward him to such a degree.  I saw his actions of chastising a young student (I got that too) and his behavior as objectionable for a teacher and mentor. This has unsettled me and in my agitation I have evaluated this behavior; not condone it, but understand it. Perhaps it was Barb's reference to St. Benedict that brought these long buried memories to the fore front. Relieve the troubles of my heart; bring me out of my distress.
This was many years ago and I have softened my heart.  In truth, she did mold me, in a way. 
She taught me to speak up when I knew I was being falsely accused.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2015, 02:55:21 PM »
 I hope that I haven't missed a reference to this before but the senator (bully) confronted Mr. H.on the telephone that one of the questions was not on the list that his son had to know and the kid felt that was unfair.
 "No sooner had I resolved to confront the senator than it became perfectly clear to me that I lacked the character to do so." 
Ginny, I agree that the word timid fits this situation.  He was afraid, apprehensive that he would be browbeaten by the senator.  He's submissive and wished to avoid a confrontation. I almost felt pity for the guy and empathy that he felt so unsure of his position.

 What did the senator mean when he said "my son has told me a great deal about you, Mr. Hundrert.  If I were you, I'd remember that."  What did he have to fear from the senator, his position at the school?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2015, 03:19:40 PM »
Alf
Quote
What did he have to fear from the senator, his position at the school?
Given the headmaster's reaction when Hundert whispered to him that Sedgewick was cheating ("Ignore it, Hundert, or look for another job.") I would say that's definitely what he had to fear.  Goodness knows what Sedgewick told his father; it might not even be true, but that wouldn't matter.  The headmaster wouldn't go against the rich, influential senator.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2015, 03:32:59 PM »
Wow I love the connection with Bell as the Palace Thief - right before our eyes and it took you Marj to bring it to our attention.

Interesting isn't it Alf how we hold on to early lifetime wounds often hidden from ourselves till something pops the memory. Glad you found further understanding - really glad - I guess I am recognizing how I still react to long ago hurts. Ah so, we all do it don't we.

Ha just noticed on the cover of - is it the movie or the book - anyhow they are playing baseball - how appropriate - strike one and you have another chance - strike two and your still in the game - only after three strikes are you out of the game. Sounds like Ginny, you had many a teacher who pushed the limit on the three strike mentality and stole a few bases while they were at it.

I also remember the little things - after the war when penny loafers were the newest fashion statement and some of the boys, when they got out of their knickers in 7th grade were dressing with penny loafers while the girls were into saddle shoes - but if the boys ever arrived in school with pennies in their loafers they had to remove the coins and put them in the box for the starving Chinese Babies along with any change in their pockets. Can you imagine today something so benign being called out by a teacher - this was not short short skirts or pants worn below what seems decent - this was pennies in shoes - I giggle at the difference. 

Another thought - if this is taking place in the 40s then we have WWII either raging or immediately over and the moral issues of the day were so raw few could even talk about them. No one really talked about the Nuremberg Trials - we read about them but no chatter in the grocery like during the war each inch of ground was discussed and re-fought over the onions and apples. After the war and during the trials if you were of German decent ouch ouch ouch -

During and after the war teaching or understanding morality was so confusing... it was some years later we started to see and read the seedy side of war - the graft, the total insanity of trying to make sense of a war that tried to hang onto rules in the middle of chaos much as the book Catch 22 and even realizing what the Dresden bombing did to millions of German citizens reading Slaughter House 5 and then the way corruption was a joke when we saw Kelly's Heroes.

The only reference I can remember to the war is When Mr. H is thinking how a soldier does not blame a captain when Mr. Woolbridge does nothing to support him during the contest as he became aware Sedgwick was cheating and something had to be done. You know the unspoken is how often in the heat of battle the mismanaged command by a captain is the cause of death for the soldiers fighting with their lives.

That gun...??!!?? I have been trying to figure it out - I know currently many folks see a gun as an unnecessary weapon and question it as a protective devise and yet, I am so glad that during the summer season at Girl Scout camp some years back the director, Wanda had a rifle and another, the gal that was the waterfront director had her repeater - in the middle of the night this guy is walking among the tents and a small group of us held him at gun point while the Sheriff was on his way - took 45 minutes and for the last 20 or more you could here the wail of his siren as he drove through the night.

I am also remembering a friend whose mother lives next to the Bush ranch outside of Crawford and all these newspaper reporters show up from all over the world - as they started to encroach on her property she used her rifle and shot on the ground at the edge of her property. Again, no sheriff was going to come out even if she called so you have to take care of things. Most of the International reporters were outraged and said so in their piece printed in the Waco news that only prompted a flood of letters from local ranchers about property rights and property protection.

And then, how often a rabid animal come along and someone has to shoot it before it bites a child or even another animal. Even Atticus Finch shoots a rabid dog.

And so I can see a gun representing both aggression and protection - mistakes are made but then the old saw but it is true - the mistake is who pulls the trigger and why.

I wonder if that is the symbol of the gun - close to a war folks would know that mistakes were made by every soldier - not every bullet hit its target - that target may have then had time to kill your buddy but you keep going and do the job as best you can. Folks who make a mistake are not asked or allowed to leave a war - you must go on and everyone knows that there is no perfect soldier.

I wonder if that is the symbol of the gun - Hyram Bell is saying - here, you are a part of this now and when Mr. Hundert throws away the gun he is saying, no more - being part of this requires too much from me and in order to walk to the tune of my own drum I do not need or want to be a part of this. 'This' that had me in its grip so that I loose not only my job, but my home and association with the traditions, politicking, work and play at St. Benedicts all the time playing the war game of status and money trumping cheating.   

The gun is an old wooden handled gun seems like the age and wooden handle has meaning that I have not been able to come up with a metaphor. It has to be in the story for a reason - no author puts anything in especially a short story without a specific reason - can't figure this one maybe someone else will have a good explanation.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2015, 03:34:26 PM »
Goodness, this story brings out lot of memories.  Maybe I'm timid because nobody tried to mold my character. ;)

The character I took an instant dislike to was Sedgewick Bell.  Nancy nailed his character neatly with a few words.  I don't like his methods, but I see why Hundert used the tactics he did.  Hundert spotted instantly that the boy was a world-class bully and manipulator, almost too much to handle, and knew he had to control him or the class would be chaos.  Later Hundert starts to feel sorry for the boy, and it's ironic that that leads to his downfall.

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2015, 03:42:16 PM »
Barb, I was writing while you were posting.  I couldn't figure out why have the gun in the story.  Senator Bell forced Hundert to take it; Hundert didn't seem to want it, and just shoved it in a drawer and forgot it.  I see why he had to get rid of it, though.  Teachers were probably not supposed to have guns, and it would be a big black mark against him.

Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2015, 03:55:19 PM »
I can't remember a discussion  with such a spirited beginning. The pot has been well and truly stirred. I envy the experience of the teachers among us.

The bottom line for me is that Mr Hundert was a good teacher. The reunion proves that. They all came. Sedgewick Bell ( a bit of a teacher's pet and his most successful student...'that's my boy') must have felt confident that they would. Corporate chairman, senator...president...well not if Mr Hundert could prevent it. Which is what he must have done by passing on to the tabloids the behavior of the schoolboy. It would make anyone cynical to realize it all come down to fundraising. And Mr Hundert stooped to that too. After all, it was all done for St Benedict's.

I wsh I could have seen his lesson plan for Ozymandias. What lesson could he have seen in it for the boys. For Mr Bell, Hundert was a 'history buff'.  That was painful for me. And the gun...I have a real problem with that.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2015, 04:00:41 PM »
Here is a tid bit - a recollection of what was the typical concerns in a school during the 40s and a photo of a station wagon so typical of the cars finally being built again after the war.

http://www.hawken.edu/Page/About/History/1940s
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2015, 04:03:22 PM »
Yes, Jonathan it is difficult however, I wonder if some of our difficulty is we have lived through the horror of school shootings which in the 40s was not an issue.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2015, 04:07:37 PM »
Hah just thought - I wonder - in the 40s the ONLY time we hear of gun violence is of course the war but organized crime - the word Mafia was not banded around but organized crime figures were a newspaper feature - is the Senator suggesting that it is all a game of power and each group has its own secret code and here, you are part of our code like it or not since you are teaching my son and we are a group that does not use a gun but we can hold up folks in their pocket book and their morality - we use our status and wealth as our hold up gun.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

marjifay

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2015, 04:14:01 PM »
Actually, the story may have taken place after the Korean War which occurred in the early 1950s.  I seem to remember that one of the students, now a man, who arrived at Bell's estate for the reunion, had lost part of his leg in the Korean War.
"Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a standstill."  Barbara Tuchman

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2015, 04:38:17 PM »
The reunion was then, but it's stated that Bell first came to the school as a student in 1945.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2015, 08:37:56 PM »
Welcome, Marj! What a joy to see you here!  Great points as well! The fact that the student body appeared to be from the privileged  class is a good one, thank you for mentioning it. Quite a contrast to the last scenes with the miners. Lots of contrasts in this book.  LOTS of conflicts.

I agree with you about the most interesting, and I think you are on record as not particularly liking short stories (tho this is not strictly speaking, a short story), so I am really thrilled to see you here.

  So many of you think it's sad at the end. Why? By what standards? Yet Mr. Hunderdt says the old man holding Sedgewick Bell's hand "who had on his face the remnants of a proud and foolish smile."

What does he have to be proud of at the end, do you all think?

On the meaning of the title, The Palace Thief, clever you but hold that thought. I'd like to discuss who or what  the Palace Thief was and what the Palace was at the very last of our discussion. THAT topic alone should be a hum dinger!

Welcome!!

May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2015, 09:04:12 PM »
Pat, :) make students go over to the window, open it, and stick their head out to get some fresh air to clear their heads

It's all in how it's done. The atmosphere in my Latin class was great fun. You stood, you laughed, but you didn't want to stand again. I imagine, and could be wrong, you put your head out the window to get some fresh air, more than one of you and that's fun but the lesson is there too.

Corporal punishment was still around in the early '60's where I taught. The "paddle" was firmly in place in the Principal's office. Imagine.  I recall actually when the parents had to give permission for this type of discipline, when that was put in effect.

ALF, bless your heart with Sister Mary Thomas!! My gosh. It's a miracle any of us survived our "teachers." I am not sure if all the credit needs to go to her for your standing up for yourself. I think maybe you should have the pat on the back there. :)  Wonderful points, too. It's amazing how many times that word character appears, including the last paragraph. "A man's character is his character."  I wonder what he meant by THAT one?

If we made a list of every time that word is used in the book and how it's used I bet we'd be surprised.But you are right, he says he has not the character. I wonder what he means by that word.



Barbara, that was a VERY interesting post on the effect that WWII would have had, on the streets and in the classrooms. And a very interesting theory of "what about the gun?" Why he might have thrown it away. I have no idea, myself.

I thought maybe because he was shy and overwhelmed (twice) by this bluster of a man and his office that he took it rather than stand up for himself, after all, it was a gift. But the throwing AWAY of it?  But I like what you said there. Breaking the spell of the Bells. That's one plot twist that made no sense to me. I suppose we could write the author and ask, but you all are very astute readers, I thought we could see what you think. I like that.

Thank you also for that link, it seems during wartime teachers were at a premium, and not easily replaced. I had to smile at the one guy having to take on bus duty, etc. Anybody who taught for any length of time in a public school ended up doing a lot of things he would never have dreamed of. I taught GYM one semester, believe it or not. GYM!

Jonathan,
I agree this is spirited and a pot well stirred. We're lucky for our thoughtful participants here who are producing such a wonderful discussion. And here you go:


The bottom line for me is that Mr Hundert was a good teacher

Pat also agreed with this assessment earlier, saying he probably was very effective. You cite all the boys came to the reunion.

What do the rest of you think? WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? By what standards? Would the boys have come IF they disliked Mr. Hunderdt? Why or why not?

An excellent question.  EVEN tho I have changed the focus of the discussion for next week, we can continue to discuss anything we'd like. And quite frankly your questions and points are better than my own.

I have problems with the gun, too. Why was the "history buff" that Mr. Bell considered Mr. Hundert painful to you?

Jonathan!! REALLY? You don't think this, do you? Which is what he must have done by passing on to the tabloids the behavior of the schoolboy.   What makes you say this?

Talk about a boiling pot!

And Pat raised another one, the person in the book she took an instant dislike to.  She says for her it's  Sedgewick Bell. Who is it for you?

So between you all you've opened more topics than Pandora.  I'm half ashamed to put up the new items, but we can still keep on discussing the old too. What fun!

Here, copied from the heading, are the topics for next week in addition to the ones raised by our readers summarized in this post:




Topic #2: Themes in the Book
"Themes"


Ethan Canin: "The theme has to do with the power of a quiet life… The power of a man to really make a change with his heart, his soul, as opposed to having to be rich. A different kind of idol… A teacher’s life is a very powerful, dignified life. We shouldn’t forget that. That’s what Mr. Hundert loses sight of in the movie, and regains in the end. God bless a great teacher… I didn’t have many. "

Let's look at themes in this story this week. In order to do this we'll call on you to identify any themes you see running through the book.

-To start out, do you agree or disagree with the author about the theme he sees in the book? Why or why not?

-What are some themes you have noted in the book? We'll put them up here so we can all discuss them.

----betrayal (ginny)

----?

----?

-Other questions raised by our readers:

----WAS Mr.Hunderdt a good teacher, do you think? Why or why not? (Jonathan)

----Was there a character you took an instant dislike to? Who and why? (Pat)

-Once we get a list of the themes we can discuss which one we think is the most powerful in the story, what the real purpose of the story IS, and all the questions you have raised as well.



May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2015, 09:17:18 PM »
hahaha, I can't let this one pass: Maybe I'm timid because nobody tried to mold my character  hahaha

Maybe they did, too much,  and that's the reason? hahahaaa I'm timid, too.  When you find out why, pass it on. :)
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2015, 06:45:56 AM »
My thoughts about the gun were two half-formed ideas. First, that the gun was a bribe (but for what exactly?) and the second was that Bell was just passing along something he really didn't want to the first person he thought might appreciate it more (not as likely). Perhaps it was a combination to the two. As Barb said, he got rid of it as he divested himself of the Bell spell. Although it was a mostly forgotten item in his bottom drawer, to Hundert it was a symbol of his failure and, possibly, incriminating evidence of a bribe.

To Jonathan's speculation that it was Hundert that passed on damaging information to the tabloids, I must disagree. Didn't Hundert, in a remark at the beginning (or end), that someone unjustly gave the tabloids ammunition that kept Sedgewick Bell from becoming President? (Sorry, I can't double check that because I took the book back to the library yesterday.) That particular statement sounded to me like he was a bit disappointed that Bell didn't win the presidency. Regardless of how he thought of Bell personally, he seems always to be proud of the stations in life that former students of St. Benedict's (and by extension, himself) ultimately attained.

Could "nature vs. nurture" be a theme here? S. Bell's nature (personality/character traits, intellectual interests/abilities) vs. Mr. Hundert who was trying to nurture (mold) Bell's character and encourage a greater interest and capacity to learn.

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2015, 09:19:41 AM »
It's on the first page of the story:
"I taught a boy who, if not for the vengeful recriminations of the tabloids, would today have been president of the United States."
The reporters were ticked off at Bell, but it doesn't say why, just or unjust.

The gun: Ellerby asked Hundert if he had a gun, and Hundert answered no.  Once this happened, Hundert had to get rid of it.  Ellerby was obviously digging for information to discredit Hundert; it would be damaging to be in possession of a gun, and even more damaging to have lied about it.  If you want to be paranoid, you could assume that Ellerby was going to accuse Hundert of having stolen the gun.

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2015, 09:35:42 AM »
Ah, okay. I remembered but not quite rightly. Yes, vengeful not unjustly. I still got the impression that he was disappointed that Bell didn't get the job.

I had forgotten about Ellerby asking about a gun. Not "the" gun, "a" gun. Why would he have asked? Had Hundert, years ago, mentioned the "gift" to him? Didn't sound like it. Had Ellerby been snooping in Hundert's desk unbeknownst to him?

Frybabe

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2015, 09:58:25 AM »
Someone wondered what school was featured on the cover art. It is The Emma Willard School in Troy, NY. It was also a location used in The Scent of a Woman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Willard_School
http://www.emmawillard.org/

Best I can tell it is still a female only school. Lots of notable alumni.

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: July 12, 2015, 10:39:41 AM »
I do not see Mr. H., as a timid man, his actions in fact seem pretty bold to me. If anything the times that have been pointed out about him being timid, are times he did not know how to respond to unexpected situations, he knew he had cheated himself, and would have to risk being caught if he pursued things any further.  I guess we all who see it differently, will have to respectfully, agree to disagree.

Frybabe, I agree, I got the impression Mr. H., was disappointed Bell did not win also.  I really like your theme of nature vs nurture, seems very fitting.

I've been on vacation and have been so busy, I have not been able to catch up on most of the posts the past few days.  Hopefully this week will settle down for me.  But for today I am off again.....
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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Halcyon

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: July 12, 2015, 11:44:32 AM »
Quote
Barb says I was taken with your sentence Nancy - "The reason why we are let down by Mr. Hunderdt is because of his position and commitment as a teacher."

To a student the dynamics in the classroom is, the teacher is the power force and so the word 'teacher' could be replaced by any who hold a power position and who have that position not by an equal process of elevating the most successful as in the winning team or even team member but the process is by appointment based on status, wealth, leadership skills etc. - Policeman, Senator, Bishops, Court Judges, and to a child their parents - unfortunately in the 1940s and 50s the concept of team did not include equal team like status between husband and wife and for some today that is still true. And so, like father like son was an easy leap for boys to feel a sense of entitlement.


Taking Barb's logic one step further I think the headmaster was the worst character.  His position held the most power.  Mr. H was a new teacher and looked to the headmaster for guidance.

What would I have done in Mr. H's position.  I would like to think that I would have taken the high road and outed Sedgwick but I know I wouldn't have, especially if, as Mr. H claims, that the school was his life and teaching the classics his calling.  To me a calling is more than a job.  It is the essence of who you are.  How can you easily give up who you are?  Mr. H's reaction was brilliant, he managed to put Sedgewick in his place and obey the headmaster!  The journey through life isn't always black and white.

Since Ginny posted about school days in the 1940's and 1950's I have been thinking about my own elementary school experience.  The standards and methods were very different.  Our principal, a stout grey haired woman did indeed have a paddle and she used it.  Where did they ever get those paddles; they looked like long handled cutting boards.  I was put in the corner and sent out into the hall many times.  My favorite punishment was to be sent to the basement into the boiler room to sit with the janitor.  The boiler room was warm and cozy and the janitor always gave me candy.  Children who came from the "wrong side of the tracks" or whose families were on "welfare" were treated differently.  In fifth grade my grandmother came to my classroom and the boy seated next to me leaned over and said "That lady is a real witch.  She comes to our house all the time."  My grandmother was the "welfare lady".  And believe me she had no empathy for struggling families.  My husband recently found a report card from his elementary school days and one of the grading categories was "Hopeless Failure".  Can you imagine being categorized as a "Hopeless Failure" in elementary school?  I do think it's important to consider the times and not to judge by today's standards.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: July 12, 2015, 01:07:28 PM »
"Hopeless Failure" oh oh oh - but you know I was thinking - with all our current concern for the feelings and the self-esteem of kids has it really made a difference? Yes, at graduations there are more medals awarded and more scholarships than were ever heard of when we were all attending school but over all there seems to me to be more who will go to collage but fewer who will be included in a well paid trade, who could hold their head up with pride because they were going into a respected trade - those are the kids that if they can make it to at least a 2 year collage have a chance - there are no longer droves of  kids who will take over the family farm or ranch - what are these kids doing - the ones on the bottom tier had been enlisting - I think they still do but not in great numbers since the wounded came back from Iraq and even those who enlist, many are first going to collage for a bit.

They sure know their technology but I do not think they are learning that in the classroom - so what has all this change accomplished I wonder in comparison to a time when it was considered a new approach to learn history wearing a homemade toga.  I see their future is different from the future we had before us however, I am not sure they are any more prepared for that future than we were.

That gun sure has us all perplexed because yes, he only seemed to make an effort to get rid of it after he was questioned by Charles Ebberly - The fact that he had a gun to me is no surprise - this is when we were practicing for bombs that were going to descend by hiding either under our desks or in some enclosed space, for us a huge storage room with no windows. And except for giving guns and field glasses to the armed services - most of the guns were taken apart for the metal and field glasses were used - we forget how little was available and everyone pitched in - during the beginning of the war women and kids were still rolling bandages - we collected tin cans and saved rubber bands and the inside silver foil paper from a cigarette package and of course tons of paper - every household had a box for paper and one for flattened tin cans - there were air raid brigades that carried old WWI gas masks and so having a gun was not unusual however, having a pistol meant you were not as patriotic.

Having or not having a gun in a private school - not sure what the expectation was in the 1940s during and after the war but clearly Charles Ebberly was attempting to discredit Mr. H. anyway he could. For me the question is what was the significance of Hyram Bell giving Mr. H. the gun in the first place - it was not described as a modern pistol - it seemed to be more an antique as if passing on some meaning attached to the gun.

One aspect is a gun does represent power - and this one was not the newest utilitarian gun - I wonder if the gun is the modern version of the sword that was used to dub a knight and was a symbol of sovereignty also attributed to death when the sword was in the hands of certain saints - like Paul, James the Greater, Thomas Beckett, Catherine. Who would have thought we needed an annotated version of a story written about 1945.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: July 12, 2015, 04:28:07 PM »
Good. It's raining. That means more posts. Longer posts. The memories we all have. And certainly, Bellamarie, only by disagreeing can we begin to understand Mr Hundert's character, which he considered his fate. Got the idea from Heraclitus, he says.

From Barb: 'For me the question is what was the significance of Hyram Bell giving Mr. H. the gun in the first place.'

It was after refusing a cigar that he was given the gun. The senator probably thought the 'history buff' teacher would appreciate the gun taken straight out of American history and could be used in the classroom as a teaching tool. For Mr Hundert, having it and discarding it eventually, become a matter of crossing a Rubicon!!?.

And thanks, Barb, for bringing up the story of Benedict, the Saint, after whom the school was named. And now it gets really complicated. Mr Hundert felt Sedgewick had betrayed St Benedict's like Judas betrayed his Lord, when he rewrote history and turned St Benedict's into Richmond High, for a few votes, or pieces of silver.

Bellamarie persuaded me that the student who lost out on becoming president was in fact Sedgewick, and not one of the other eighteen senators' sons he had taught. The betrayal of St Benedict's was just too much for him. After which, Mr Hundert's agony.


ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: July 12, 2015, 08:14:40 PM »
Well the family is almost dispersed, and the torrent of rain has stopped, and now I can get back in to the best reading there is. How I am enjoying this discussion!!

You all are a lot more astute than I am on the subject of the gun. I liked this, Frybabe: My thoughts about the gun were two half-formed ideas. First, that the gun was a bribe (but for what exactly?) and the second was that Bell was just passing along something he really didn't want to the first person he thought might appreciate it more (not as likely).

That first one made me think that possibly it was sort of an understated bribe. If I give you something, you are then indebted to me, perhaps socially, perhaps personally. Maybe he DID think that Mr. Hunderdt as the "history buff" would enjoy the history in it. How interesting to me it is that when Mr. H looks at it at the end, he sees it rusty, ill proportioned and blunt.

I liked this, too:  Regardless of how he thought of Bell personally, he seems always to be proud of the stations in life that former students of St. Benedict's (and by extension, himself) ultimately attained.


Thank you also for the link to the Emma Willard School.  That's a perfect thing for the cover. I like the motto, too: Gaudet Patientia Duris
Patience Rejoices in Adversity. They need an s on that "Adversity," don't they?

Thank you for nature versus nurture, I'll put it with the themes in the heading.

Pat, good point: If you want to be paranoid, you could assume that Ellerby was going to accuse Hundert of having stolen the gun. Or more. He might say, since he seemed strangely breathless, that he'd been contacted by one of the Bells. If the  younger, he might have said Mr. Hunderdt had threatened him, (because he knew he had the gun) if the older, who knows what might have been said? The tabloids...isn't that interesting?

It seems to say that Sedgewick Bell got his own sometime, just to let US know he didn't get away with his machinations.

Bellamarie, thank you for that opinion about why Mr. Hunderdt did not speak up in situations he found intimidating. As Jonathan says, it does help to hear all sides--gives a broader view.

Halcyon, you scamp! I will forever see you sitting in the boiler room with the janitor hahaha. Loved that story. I think the janitors are the unsung heroes of many schools, wasn't there something the other day about a janitor who had provided clothes and shoes and a lot more for years and years of his school?

 Seriously, I thought when I started to read, you, too? "Hopeless Failure". I really can't conceive of that being on any kind of scale that a child was in danger of being marked. What a thing education used to be, not all of it, just some of it.   Truly it's a wonder we survived it. AWFUL remark about your grandmother, can't children really be beasts!

Barbara, THERE Is a question about what has all this done for the children of today? Everybody gets a trophy for turning out, everybody on the team. I want to hope they are all better people at the end of their lives, but time will have to tell.

Oh I like your theory here, Jonathan, why didn't I think of this? It was after refusing a cigar that he was given the gun. The senator probably thought the 'history buff' teacher would appreciate the gun taken straight out of American history and could be used in the classroom as a teaching tool.

Oh of COURSE! He probably thought Mr Hunderdt would look it up and get the history of it and bring it out to show the classes the same way Caesar's rocks from his landing place in Britain  and pieces of  Vesuvius appear in my face to face classes. (And in photos in the online ones). Of course the era is wrong, but perhaps the non history buff Mr. Bell did not know or care about that.

Jonathan you also have picked up on the betrayal theme. The betrayal of St Benedict's was just too much for him.  Yes, it was and Charles Ellerby must have known what it would do to Mr. Hundert.

Mr. Hundert had to summon his courage to tell the board why classics were important. He did, he recalled his former speeches and list and he carried the day. This, he said, was the thing he was most proud of, and incidentally he got the traitor Ellerby a job. He then befriended him. He regarded Charles Ellerby as the epitome of character. He tries in times of stress, to think of what Charles would do in the same situation.

Of the four people listed, Sedgewick Bell, Headmaster Woodbridge, William Hundert, and Charles Ellerby, there is only one in the special category of the worst for me, and it's Charles Ellerby.

Why? Because like all traitors he was sly and sneaky, he plotted and schemed to take down the very person who had given him a chance.  Does this not remind any of you of anybody else or are there so many of these instances in history that we have gone numb.  I am not thinking of Judas tho certainly he is one, but I'm thinking instead of the constant references in the text to Julius Caesar. I stopped marking my text at #5, but Mr. Hundert constantly presents himself in relation to Caesar by his remarks and even by the way he writes to us.  I was immediately struck by it,  and I want to come back to it, and just to be sure we don't MISS it, the contest is named Mr. Julius Caesar. I mean really. Talk about hints.

I want to develop this further but it's really striking when you see the references. What does it mean? I'm not sure. It can't be coincidence, there are too many of them, but Mr. Hundert is no Caesar, though they were both betrayed at the end, and the world of St. Benedict's is not a battle ground. Or is it?  I need to keep thinking about this. 

Should he have gone to that last contest? Would YOU have gone? What do you think inspired him to go?


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ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: July 12, 2015, 08:45:09 PM »
See what you think about this?

I was looking for a new quiz in the July 6-13 New Yorker Magazine and it's not online yet but I found this and was interested in reading it: it's called Why Smart People are Stupid.

I keep wondering why Mr. Hunderdt seems so off on his judgments of others. He's seeing only hope and good in Sedgewick, so he encourages him. He's intimidated by Hiram Bell's "power," and fails to say what he wants to say. Twice.

He is dead wrong about Charles Ellerby and his supposedly sterling character.

How can a man who knows history and is smart, be so dumb?

The article seems to have some prescient answers, based on studies:

Here are some excerpts:

Although we assume that intelligence is a buffer against bias—that’s why those with higher S.A.T. scores think they are less prone to these universal thinking mistakes—it can actually be a subtle curse.

Perhaps our most dangerous bias is that we naturally assume that everyone else is more susceptible to thinking errors, a tendency known as the “bias blind spot.” This “meta-bias” is rooted in our ability to spot systematic mistakes in the decisions of others—we excel at noticing the flaws of friends—and inability to spot those same mistakes in ourselves.

Although the bias blind spot itself isn’t a new concept, West’s latest paper demonstrates that it applies to every single bias under consideration, from anchoring to so-called “framing effects.” In each instance, we readily forgive our own minds but look harshly upon the minds of other people.


And here’s the upsetting punch line: intelligence seems to make things worse.




One provocative hypothesis is that the bias blind spot arises because of a mismatch between how we evaluate others and how we evaluate ourselves. When considering the irrational choices of a stranger, for instance, we are forced to rely on behavioral information; we see their biases from the outside, which allows us to glimpse their systematic thinking errors. However, when assessing our own bad choices, we tend to engage in elaborate introspection. We scrutinize our motivations and search for relevant reasons; we lament our mistakes to therapists and ruminate on the beliefs that led us astray.


Doesn't that sound familiar?

The problem with this introspective approach is that the driving forces behind biases—the root causes of our irrationality—are largely unconscious, which means they remain invisible to self-analysis and impermeable to intelligence. In fact, introspection can actually compound the error, blinding us to those primal processes responsible for many of our everyday failings. We spin eloquent stories, but these stories miss the point. The more we attempt to know ourselves, the less we actually understand.

(From: http://www.newyorker.com/tech/frontal-cortex/why-smart-people-are-stupid)

This, I thought, was the very epitome of the last scene in the book. How do you explain Mr. Hundert there  when he says, "Still, I wanted desperately for him to ask me something more, and perhaps this was why I  kept refilling his glass. I wanted  him to ask, "how is it to be alone, sir, at this age?' or perhaps to say, 'You have made a difference in my life, Mr. Hundert.'"

What did you make of this scene?

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PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2015, 10:15:46 PM »
My thoughts about the gun were two half-formed ideas. First, that the gun was a bribe (but for what exactly?) and the second was that Bell was just passing along something he really didn't want to the first person he thought might appreciate it more (not as likely).

Looking at the passage in the book again, I think the second idea is right.  Bell had just been given the gun by a constituent that morning. He wanted to play the open-handed, generous politician, and that was handy and seemed appropriate.  He was wrong about that, though.  Nobody who cared anything at all about guns would leave one to rust in a drawer for years and not even keep it oiled.  I bet Hundert didn't even unload it.  (Bell's remark "Be careful with that, by the way.  It still fires."  implies it's loaded.)

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: July 13, 2015, 01:49:25 AM »
All the while reading and discussing this short story, I kept feeling like I was reading a parable from the Bible.  Ethan Canin seems to have a style of writing stories which deal with many hidden messages.  This story, much like a parable or allegory, has many hidden meanings dealing with morals and politics.

Once Barb brought to mind St. Benedict, my feelings heightened about how this feels like the Liturgical readings I hear at Mass, and how they always touch me in a certain way, leaving me with much to ponder throughout the week, after I leave church on Sunday.  Jesus had a way about teaching through parables, so we would not judge others, but so we ourselves would look closer at our own actions. Mr. H., has spent decades going over his past actions, his Mea Culpas, so to speak.  Yet, I never really got the feeling he truly did have a change of heart, or change of actions, even after he would admit where he saw he did wrong.  I think this is what has bothered me so much about the character, is that his character is flawed, yet he wants to be the molder of character, in these young boys. 

I can't help but keep going back to the uneasy feeling I have had in his obsession with Sedgewick, and even his teaching at St. Benedict's.  He made this his life.  Why?  So again, I have to revisit the idea Halcyon brought up early on about him possibly being homosexual.  His life and actions for the era would certainly raise questions of a man who never married, lives an isolated life, and is obsessed with a young boy.  There are three different times I felt the author has given us a glimpse into the possibility of Mr. H., being gay.
1.  Sedgewick, asks if he was ever married, and mentions him making the boys dress in togas.
2.  Mr. Bell says, his son had told him a lot about Mr. H., and he may want to keep that in mind.  Sounding very much like a threat.
3.  Mr. Ellerby visits Mr. H., and mentions the fact he has never married. 

I don't think these are coincidences.  I sense they are hidden messages.  It really does not matter if he is or is not gay, but if Mr. Ellerby, Mr. Bell, or even Sedgwick suspected he was, it is very possible that could have had something to do with him not getting the Headmaster position. 

I see the themes dealing with morals, and character building.  My personal opinion is that each individual is responsible for their own character and moral fiber.  Others can surely influence us in our lifetime, but ultimately, only we can make the decisions as to how we will morally choose to live, which will mold our character.  Jesus, like this author, presents situations for us to decide which way we will personally choose to deal with these situations.  While Mr. H., may have been thinking his actions were justified, because his intentions were good, ultimately he was no better or worse, than those he was judging to have lack of character.  A politician or a teacher, a headmaster or a student, regardless of what career or position, or age you are, you ultimately must decide on what path you will choose in life.  Will you do what is right, or will you choose to do wrong?  Can one person's wrong, discount your wrong? 

I'm beginning to soften, and feel sorry for Mr. H., because I do feel he failed, not only his students, but he failed himself. He denies the accusation of having the gun, and later that evening takes the gun to a distant marsh and throws it in. He says, “I became obsessed with the idea that I had missed this most basic lesson of the past, that conviction is the alpha and the omega of authority. Now I see that I was doomed the moment I threw that pistol in the water, for that is when I lost my conviction” (pg. 182). 

This is where I do believe Mr. H., has learned the hidden message like in a parable/allegory.  Mr. Ellerby had to have been told to ask him about the gun. The only two people who knew he had the gun was Senator Bell, and possibly Sedgewick.  Mr. H., has to realize later that he was set up to be overlooked for the headmaster position, and to be fired, when Ellerby asked about the gun.  Throwing the gun away was his lesson learned, too late.  I believe Mr. Bell gave Mr. H., that gun as a part of a bribe, and a future set up.  It had nothing to do with a gift a history teacher would like having.  Mr. Bell and Sedgewick are molded from the same fabric, poor Mr. H., never saw them coming. 

I feel Mr. H., lost Sedgewick's respect and possible chance at ever molding or influencing his character here:  “I did not know at the time what an act of corruption I had committed, although what is especially
chilling to me is that I believe that Sedgewick Bell, even at the age of thirteen, did”
(pg. 172).

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/05/22/what-is-a-parable-a-bible-definition/

What Is A Parable? A Bible Definition
May 22, 2014 by Jack Wellman 0 Comments

Jesus gives us many parables in the Bible.  What is a parable?  Why does He use parables…to hide or clarify the meaning?

Parables
The word parable is from the root word “paraballo” or in the Greek “parabole.” This compound word comes from “para” which means “to come along side or compare” and “ballo” which literally means “to throw” or “see” with.  The parables are used in giving one or more instructional lessons or principles and can be an allegory and may include inanimate objects (like trees, plants, or things) or people in various societal positions. 

There is often a tension between good and evil or sinful and holy meaning that they can proclaim what is good versus what is bad and what is evil in contrast to what is holy or God-like.   A parable is often a significant comparison between two objects that may be used as a mirror image of a comparable object to teach a single concept or teaching.   Some of the key words that Jesus usually concludes the parables with are phrases that alert the listener to pay close attention to what was just said and may include such words as “He who has ears, let him hear, Most assuredly I say to you,” and “How much more.”  Jesus wants the listeners to focus on what was just stated in the parable so that they will comprehend what Jesus is trying to teach them.
Hidden from Some
Jesus clearly gives parables to hide the meaning from those whose hearts are hardened.  Some of the parables are hard to understand but they frequently serve as object lessons that use experiences from life to clearly communicate a meaning for Jesus’ teachings.  Jesus quotes Isaiah the Prophet by saying “I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world” (Matt 13:35). The disciples asked Jesus “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matt 13:10-11) otherwise “they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them” (Matt 13:15b) because “the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened” (Heb 4:2).  So we can say that parables were given to hide the meaning from those who choose to reject Jesus and the message of God and to clarify or give a fuller meaning and understanding to those who believed on the Lord.
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Sadly, this story takes place at a school named after a saint, but there are few saintly ones in this story.  Ethan Canin has taken man's weaknesses, the seven deadly sins to tell a story, and to teach the reader a lesson dealing with one's own morals and character.  For me, it was like sitting in church, listening to the priest teaching us from the parables in scripture.  These characters actions are not for me to judge, their actions are for me to learn from.  Much like I teach my third grade religious class, I tell my students when they are faced with a situation, and are uncertain of which choice to make, stop and ask yourself...WWJD?
(What would Jesus do)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: July 13, 2015, 06:54:29 AM »
I would think bellamaria you would want to celebrate Mr. H and all those at St. Benedict's - yes, they are sinners which is the reminder to us all that we are all sinners.

Saint Benedict admired and copied his monasteries after John the Ascetic, better known as John Cassian 360 – 435 - a contemporary of St. Augustine - choosing the influence of John Cassian over St. Augustine.

What went on during this early time in history is something else and these are the saints admired by St. Benedict and they are his guide.  Benedict used the formula of life and prayer established by the Desert Fathers and John Cassian as part of the Liturgy of the Hours that later became the Liturgy for the Western Church.

Let's start with the easy admirable stuff like; Gregory the Great’s teaching on the seven deadly sins comes from Cassian, as does much of his teaching on compunction and prayer. St Philip Neri used to read the work of John Cassian during Mass. The writings of John Cassian influenced John of Damascus, St Dominic, St Francis de Sales and Cardinal Newman.

As a young adult, John Cassian and an older friend travel to Palestine, where they enter a hermitage near Bethlehem. Fifteen years later they flee to Constantinople because of the Anthropomorphic controversy provoked by Theophilus, Archbishop of Alexandria, along with the 300 other Origenist monks.

Still tame but questionable; the Origenist monk's teachings are contrary to the teachings of the apostles, Paul and John. They believe in the pre-existence of souls, the final reconciliation of all creatures, good and bad, including the devil (the apokatastasis, which is the original or primordial condition), and they believe Jesus, as the Son of God is subordinate to God the Father, rather than Jesus being part of the Holy Trinity.

Then the biggie - Archbishop Theophilus of the Origenist's finds a hidden pagan temple. He and the Origenists put on public display and mock the pagan artifacts, which of course the pagans are outraged and attack the Christians. The Christians fight back, forcing the pagans to retreat. The emperor sends a letter to Archbishop Theophilus telling him he should pardon the pagans, but instead the Archbishop completely destroys the temple. Included in writings of Socrates, a contemporary, the destruction of the temple was because of the request by the emperor for pardon. Since, both ancient and modern authors use the destruction of this temple as "the" triumph of Christianity over other religions. (sheesh some triumph)

Then get this - Archbishop Theophilus, turned against his own, the Origenists who fled to Constantinople,  had them persecuted putting himself at the head of an army, and arming his servants they march against the monks, burn their huts and houses, torture and starve those he captured. John Cassian escaped because he could speak Latin and was sent to Rome by the Patriarch of Constantinople to plead their case to Pope Innocent.

And then, the understatement of atom bomb proportions - Archbishop Theophilus becomes Pope Theophilus of Alexandria.

All this is the historical heritage of St. Benedict - St. Benedict's school - we today, who practice the Catholic faith - we accept this religion that is standing in the goo of these horrors because we know we are human - and as such, we have been given grace that connects our soul to God and, the church in its wisdom made absolution for sinners a sacrament so that, without expecting us to hold back because of past transgressions we would continue to do our best.

We all know and accept it is God who will judge, not us - we are expected to 'love our neighbor as ourselves' knowing our neighbor, like ourselves are guilty of all sorts of sins.

After all that, in other words, I feel very uncomfortable to hear this drum beat about the sins of a character in a novel without considering the arch of the character - we must ask what the so called sin was trying to symbolize and ultimately how this so called sin affects the theme of the story.

Readers have to ask if Mr. H. was as perfect as you would prefer, what kind of story would we be reading - what would be the tensions within the character and between characters - he is not the devil incarnate because he acted typical of a teacher in the 1940s. Yes, he acted far different than how we expect teachers today would behave as they teach history students.  We must remember this story was written about the experiences of teachers, administrators, parents and boys in the 1940s not in the twenty-first century.

In the past you had been great about finding and sharing the differences in behavior of characters placed in the nineteenth century - what happened - it is as if these recent character driven behaviors we read about are hitting a button in your life and you no longer see them as characters but as if they were real people that you need to let your outrage be known how badly they act - we know because you have in the past been great about seeing a character as just that, a character that influences the plot, conflict and theme - please become the old Bellamarie - we have not seen that old Bellamarie in months - we miss her.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: July 13, 2015, 08:26:12 AM »
Barb,
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In the past you had been great about finding and sharing the differences in behavior of characters placed in the nineteenth century - what happened - it is as if these recent character driven behaviors we read about are hitting a button in your life and you no longer see them as characters but as if they were real people that you need to let your outrage be known how badly they act - we know because you have in the past been great about seeing a character as just that, a character that influences the plot, conflict and theme - please become the old Bellamarie - we have not seen that old Bellamarie in months - we miss her.

Wow, I must say I am extremely hurt by this post and personal judgement of me and my comments. I do not have any buttons being triggered from my life as you suggest.  I see these characters in this story similar to everyone else, the author in an interview I read, says he bumped into his teacher years later, and went home and decided to write this story because this particular teacher was very tough on him.  Many members here said how this story has sparked memories of their past teachers, and horrible experiences, so does that not in fact show these characters are being looked at and compared to, as real life people from their own pasts?  I've always thought a good author brings his characters to real life.  When you can see a character as real, it means the author has wrote a great story.  I am very confused as to how my comments have brought about so much chastisement because I do not agree with everyone else's feelings or opinions.  I did not teach, in the 1940's, and I began elementary school in the late 1950's.  I have no horror stories of teachers from my past.  I guess I was fortunate to have had wonderful, caring teachers, who I grew up admiring so much so I named my only daughter after a high school teacher who was my mentor, and inspired me to go into a teaching career myself.  My high school principal was great, he liked me so much so, he asked me to work in the school office.  In August I will be attending my 45th High School reunion, and have reconnected with many of my old alumni, and we are so excited and anxious to get together to share our memories.  Most of us began Kindergarten together, and graduated high school together.  We all seem to have much admiration and respect for our teachers we had, and although we at times were little rebels, and some teachers could be considered hard, we took that in our stride and found the humor in it.  So very possibly this is why I feel how I do about Mr. H.  Which I will not repeat, since I have been told I have so many times already.

Barb,
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I would think bellamaria you would want to celebrate Mr. H and all those at St. Benedict's - yes, they are sinners which is the reminder to us all that we are all sinners.


If you go back and re read my post you will see in fact I did say,
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These characters actions are not for me to judge, their actions are for me to learn from.


Is giving my opinions and feelings considered judging?  I searched and read articles of other reviews, since I feel I have been harshly judged for my comments here, and surprisingly I have found others who have almost said the exact feelings of the theme and characters of the people here in this story as I have expressed, so I am very confused why I am being so harshly criticized.  I enjoy and respect differences of opinions, I would not want all of us to see and feel the same way, because that would make for a very dull and boring discussion.  I have shared the comments with my husband and neighbor who is also a teacher and they both have wondered why my comments are being targeted.   I will refrain from participating any further on this story. 

Ginny, forgive me for not continuing with this discussion, I have such different views on teaching, regardless of what year it is, and my standards seem too high. Considering we are touching lives of the future, I prefer to err on treating all students with respect, rather than ridicule, or obsession.

I am truly sorry, if at any time I have shown anything less than respect in my responses to anyone.  No comments for me is necessary since I will not be checking back into this discussion.  Thank you to those who were not so judgemental or offended by my comments.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: July 13, 2015, 11:20:04 AM »
We've lost Bellamarie. What a pity. I did feel she was too hard on poor Mr Hundert. But she did have her reasons. I should have told her to watch the movie. It's a truer picture of an excellent teacher. He was remembered by all his students with pleasure.

And there is Mr Hundert's haunting statement at the end of the story, quoted by Ginny:

'I wanted  him (Deepak Mehta) to ask, "how is it to be alone, sir, at this age?' or perhaps to say, "You have made a difference in my life, Mr Hundert." '

Hasn't he been telling us for fifty pages.

Jonathan

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: July 13, 2015, 11:34:07 AM »
Along the way in a long life of teaching:

'As assistant headmaster I had not taught my beloved Roman history in many years, so that poring through my reams of notes was like returning at last to my childhood home. I stopped here and there  among the files. I reread the term paper of young Derek Bok entitled "The Search of Diogenes" and the scrawled one of James Watson called "Archimedes' Method." Among the art projects I found John Updikes 's reproduction of the Obelisk of Cleopatra and  a charcoal drawing of the Baths of Caracala by the absractionist Robert Motherwell, unfortunately torn in two and no longer worth anything." p183

I wonder how these distinguished people remember, or remembered Mr. Hundert.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: July 13, 2015, 12:33:49 PM »
"This dream is all amiss interpreted." Julius Caesar again, :) Shakespeare this time.

Bellamarie, I am sorry to see your post,  and I hope that you may yet change your mind.

I do  think there are some misunderstandings here and I would like to try, if possible,  to straighten some of them out in the hopes of ameliorating the situation.

It's quite difficult to discuss books which often touch our lives  when you can't see the faces of the people you're talking to. It's easy to misunderstand intent, humor and nuance.

First off, there seems to be a total misconception of "the '40's issue," and the reason it was introduced. It was introduced with about 200 disclaimers stating that NOBODY thinks that ANY era is ANY excuse for misdoing. This has been said so many times why take up more space now with it?  If it wasn't read or understood the first time, I won't repeat it now.

 So any thought  to the contrary is based on misunderstanding and only that.  It was a different world, period. As we can see that from the people who did speak up, and the author himself (read on).  And it wasn't only the 40's.


so does that not in fact show these characters are being looked at and compared to, as real life people from their own pasts?


No. Mine were intended as examples in real life of what happened in those times, which you stated  didn't make any difference.  Nobody thinks Mr. Hunderdt or any of these characters are real people. Symbols, maybe (which we've said from the beginning) real, no.

You said: I see these characters in this story similar to everyone else, the author in an interview I read, says he bumped into his teacher years later, and went home and decided to write this story because this particular teacher was very tough on him.

You left out something important there. The actual quote is:

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You say you didn’t have many great teachers. Was there one in particular that influenced you?

    I actually wrote [this story] after encountering—20 years after graduating—an old grade school teacher of mine. He was a fabulous teacher: a tyrant. It turns out those are the kind of teachers I remember. All the Roman and Greek history that was in the story (not in the movie) I actually remembered cause he just drove it into us.

    I met the guy on the street 20 years later and he was practically homeless. He was bedraggled. He was ill. He died a couple of months later. I went home that day and wrote the story just thinking of him.

The author is saying,  unless I don't understand him,  that you can be a good teacher, no, a fabulous teacher, and a tyrant, too. THAT was the times, apparently that's not true today? Apparently not. But it was then.

He saw him on the street and recalled how "fabulous" he WAS and that he obviously had not come to great estate. He says that in the heading.  He saw him and in his imagination I guess he created in his mind what could have reduced him to this spot and how he deserved better.

He does not say what he said to him. I would like to know if he spoke.

But in the book Mr. Hundert tries, despite his many many "sins,"  to redeem himself. He does speak up, trying to right his life.  Furthermore he says as Sedgewick  Bell knew he would.

I think personally, since I have not said a thing about Sedgewick Bell, that Mr. Hundert uses the word "obsession" in a different way than has been interpreted here. Certainly not sexually, my gosh he says there must always be a distance between teacher and student and can't even, even when Deepak is an old man, when he so desperately wants praise or at least appreciation, allow himself to initiate it by expressing  a personal interest: oh you did have a heart attack? Can't even go that far, that personal.

He means something different by the word obsession. I interpreted it like the filmmaker did. He wants to help. He starts down a slippery path.  He, however, does try to right it. That's the reason for the "proud" and "foolish" smile.

How do you feel about THIS issue of redemption? I feel, personally, that  he  must be allowed his turnaround. If he's to be excoriated for his mistakes, willfully made, he must be allowed at least credit  for trying, the climax of the plot (or is it?) and   his moment of triumph. I truly don't think Sedgewick was harmed by Mr. Hunderdt, he had his dad for that, who did mold him in his own image.

But here Jonathan is citing what he DID do right, the projects. I doubt any of those people forgot those projects. I remember mine. I found the rationale of the film producer who did a completely different take on it, interesting. He agrees with Bellamarie that Mr. Hundert started it:
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What do you think of the way that Mr. Hundert handles the cheating?
    Kevin Kline as Mr. Hundert discussing Sedgewick’s cheating with the school headmaster, Mr. Woodbridge (played by Edward Herrmann)Neil: It’s a really good question. You’re asking two guys who’ve both cheated in the past. When he catches him cheating the first time… the problem was he (Mr. Hundert) cheated first. He started it. Without that in there, of course you have to stand up and say “you’re cheating.” I don’t think life is black and white. The kid is a hurt emotional kid. He was being human at the moment. He had no idea the kid was going to go and stab him in the back. He had to protect him from his father. So I think there are times when you have to weigh the level of the cheating. I believe that’s why he doesn’t and shouldn’t say anything.



He says here "There are times when you have to weigh the level of the cheating." I think that's true. This is why the movie is different, and has a different ending. I haven't seen the movie in a long time, how does it end, those of you who have just seen it?

Jonathan, you said: Hasn't he been telling us for fifty pages. That's a good question. HAS he? I must be thick, I don't see it.  Do you think it represents a sudden realization?

 In the paragraph before this  he says almost the opposite. Are you thinking he's longing for appreciation but doesn't know how to attain it? And that is what he's been telling us this entire time?  Perhaps that when he met Sedgewick Bell he thought to help him (I know he did) and thus have THAT as his proudest moment?

Many people here have remarked on how "sad" the story is. I don't think the "thief" is who everybody thinks it or he is. We've got a lot to talk about. :)


What is the climax of the plot, to you?

 
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: July 13, 2015, 01:02:40 PM »
This book is a chameleon.  Every time I reread something it looks different to me.  I'm going to have to do some rethinking.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: July 13, 2015, 02:30:31 PM »
. :) Me, too. It reminds me of those GPS systems, "recalculating."
May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: July 14, 2015, 09:40:51 AM »
Isn't it a wonderful book for discussion though? Only 50 pages. Look at that plot, isn't it a wonderful choice to discuss? I really want to look at the plot and the way the book is written before too much longer.

I'm struck by that list that Jonathan put  here  of the projects of Mr. Hundert's students. Not the famous men who did them, but the variety of subjects.  What kind of teacher must this man have been to have incorporated these variety of things things into his lesson plans?  I also would like to see his lesson plan that included Cleopatra's obelisk.

I'm sure you know that's referred to as Cleopatra's Needle  and there are three of them, one in Paris, one in London,  and one in Central Park.  In fact you can see it from the Metropolitan  Museum of Art in the section where there's a big wall of glass windows you can look right out on it. The interesting thing about that is where they found it and how they got it to New York I think that's one of the most interesting stories I've ever read, highly recommended, better than Indiana Jones. 

That and the fact that mr Sawass and Egypt  requested it back because it wasn't being taken care of so last year they covered it in scaffolding and they're doing lasers to clean that thing... it's just a fantastic story, but the best part of it is how they got it to New York City. 

 So many themes in this little novel.  Retirement and aging.  What it is to be retired.  Supposedly they say it's easier for women. Do you think that's true?  Here we have an old man looking back. You know what they say about retirement and men,  it's particularly hard on men because they were a captain of industry or they were known as this or that and now when they go somewhere they are overlooked passed by just another old crock.   Has maybe too much to say about things. They lose that authority they once had and it's hard for a lot of men to adjust.  In fact, correct me on this, but I think the heart attack right for men in the first two years following retirement is quite high. 

 And yet yesterday came an article in the news about a woman in the Midwest who in her retirement trying all sorts of things that didn't work out that much but she kept developing new interests and now she's famous for her rescue dogs that she trained that go out and search ruins to try to find and help those who might be trapped.

Not everybody  can make that adjustment. Not everybody can develop playing basketball in their 70s 80s and 90s like those incredible absolutely incredible women on the newsSaturday. 

Retirement in the Golden age. Isn't all it's cracked up to be? All tha accumulated knowledge and wisdom.  Who wants to hear it now?
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There's an hilarious cartoon in the New Yorker in an article called Why Smart People Are Stupid showing a guy standing up the podium in academic robes and he says,  I know so much I don't know where to start.  Hahaha

How do you think Mr. Hundert is going to do this in his retirement? Do you think he's going to end up like the Dr. Canin's old teacher? What are some signs that he might or might not?

I've hit on this idea of trying something new: Mini Questions, one a day for 5 days.  Going to try new things.

You know we were the first book club on the Internet, we really actually aimed this site at of those over 60 originally and then those over 50 because we really did want to hear what those years of accumulated knowledge and wisdom have taught you....that's what our book clubs are all about.



But I like different things and new things so I'm going to try this today to see if it works. It won't work if everybody just sits on their hands and doesn't say anything so I hope you will give it your best shot.

The Topic du Jour is Retirement and Old  Age, and how you think Mr. Hundert is faring, what you think of what he's doing with his time, and if you think he will end up like Dr. Canin's real teacher in real life.   Why or why not?   What relationdoes his retirement have to the revelations he's making in this story, if any?

Penny for your thoughts.  :)



May 13 is our last day of class for the 2023-2024 school year.  Ask about our Summer Reading Opportunities.

ginny

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: July 14, 2015, 09:41:37 AM »
That was intended to be a couple of lines of post.  Hahaha
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Halcyon

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: July 14, 2015, 10:09:24 AM »
Ginny, you asked earlier about themes.....isolation, loses of innocence, power and betrayal are just a few. 

Retirement might be difficult for Mr. H.  His has been a very self centered existence, king of his classroom, students coming to him with problems.  Even as he advanced he was in charge of his domain, still living inside his head.  I can't really see him ending up homeless but I can't see him taking on the challenges of anything new.  Personally I think retirement is very difficult.  I've taken another job, part time and very interesting.  Can't figure out what one would do at home, surely not cook and clean!

I really have to watch the movie again.  I was half expecting Kevin Kline to revert to his character in A Fish Called Wanda and probably didn't pay attention as I should.

The gun.  Someone mentioned that the gun could have been a subtle bribe.  I can see the senator thinking that Mr. H would be telling everyone how important he was because the senator gave him an antique gun.  Didn't happen though.


Dana

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: July 14, 2015, 11:25:44 AM »
Hey Bellamarie, you opened my eyes to something in the story I had missed.  I don't tend to read long posts, so I haven't read all of yours (and many others too of-course) but I agree with what I have read.  Teachers can be sarcastic or plain nasty but I do expect them not to cheat to let a more important pupil win or for any other reason.  I really don't care about his psyche or why he did it.

PatH

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Re: The Palace Thief by Ethan Canin ~ July Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: July 14, 2015, 12:27:23 PM »
That's a crucial turning point for Hundert, and lands him in the mess that follows.  I agree, cheating like that is totally unacceptable for a teacher.  I think I would not have fudged that grade.  However, I might have asked the question that wasn't on Bell's cheat sheet.  I would have already seen that Bell was cheating, and been ordered to ignore it or lose my job, and I would have been pretty mad about that.  So it's using a cheat to prevent a cheat.