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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Noah's Compass ~ May Book Club Online
You are invited to join us on May 1.
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/noahscompass/noahcover.jpg) | Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first choice for our May Book Club Online discussion. We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience. Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark. "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."
Liam Pennywell is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium, after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged. For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control.
And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous." Really.
We all know a Liam, the novel suggests. In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat. Please plan to join us as we float along together.
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Discussion Schedule
May 1-2 ~ Chapter 1
May 3-7 ~ Chapters 2 & 3
May 8-14 ~ Chapters 4,5,6
May 15-21 ~ Chapters 7,8,9
May 22-28 ~ Chapters 10,11,12
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Some Questions for Your Consideration
May 1 - 7 Chapter 1
1. Is it a bad thing that that Liam Pennywell got laid off from teaching fifth graders at St. Dyfrig's? Do you think he had been a good teacher?
2. What do you think of Anne Tyler's descriptive writing style in this first chapter? How do you picture Liam's friend, Bundy, as a "blue-black giraffe"?
3. What did you like about Liam's new apartment? Would you have rented it?
4. Can you tell whether Liam is looking forward to the next stage in his life, his retirement? Or does he consider this stage the end of the line? How do you look upon your retirement years?
5. Why do you think Liam is so concerned about not remembering anything about the break-in? He’s been told several times that this is very normal, and he doesn’t seem to have any other memory problems. Have you ever suffered a loss of memory following an injury like this?
6. Latin scholars, did you spot the latin phrase in Chapter 2? What was its meaning?
7. How do the women in his life, his three daughters, his ex-wife and his sister differ in their actions and attitudes towards Liam?
8. What is your opinion of Liam? Does it change, as you learn more about him? (Is it unusual for a 60 year old man not to have a computer, a cell phone or even a television?)
9. Why did Dr. Morrow make time in his busy schedule to see Liam right away? What is the neurologist's prognosis? Just what does Liam expect of someone he calls a “rememberer?”
10. Do you think it is unusual or abnormal for Liam to want to remember the attack? What clues has he learned at this point?
Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available (http://www.amazon.com/);
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life? (http://www.amazon.com/What-Should-Do-Rest-Life/dp/1583333657)
Anne Tyler's Baltimore (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (mailto:ann.bartlett@att.net )
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Welcome to every one of you on this first day of May! (Where did April go?)
It appears this is going to be more than a straightforward discussion of Anne Tyler's delightful new novel, as she has brought up issues that we have all been facing: meaningful retirement, memory loss.... Her book should stimulate discussion of our own concerns. We are looking forward to sharing your thoughts on the novel and the issues AT brings to the tabl.!
We're going to ask you to keep an eye on the DISCUSSION SCHEDULE in the heading. We would like to focus on Liam Pennywell, described in Chapter 1, for the first two days of the discussion. The poor guy! The poor fifth graders! Would you say Liam's future looks more promising?
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Welcome to everyone. This certainly will be more than a straightforward discussion. Lots of emotions and feelings popping up here. Lots of people here. I can’t say right now whether I like them or dislike them, but I can certainly relate to some of things they’ve said or done.
I can’t wait to get started, can’t wait to to hear your thoughts. But first, what about this Liam Pennywell?
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Good morning. Hurrah. May 1 is here. Thunderstorms approaching here, so I’m just here for a quick in and out. First impressions of Liam – he’s kind of an accepting sort of guy – he follows, rather than leads. He loses his job, and since he’s 61 years old it must mean that a productive life is over for him – he thinks.
A seventeen-year-old tells him where to put his bed and desk. That’s fine with Liam. His sister calls and tells him to make his bed. Well, that was a good idea, but he does it because he’s used to taking orders from her.
Damian, the 17-year-old, when Liam says he doesn’t have a computer, asks how he communicates with the outside world. “He doesn’t,” says his friend Bundy. That may be true. He seems to think about things, but then doesn’t communicate his thoughts to anyone, worried about what they might think.
My impression from reading this first section – He’s kind of a Casper Milqtoast.
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My first impression of Liam is that he "goes along to get along".
I was amazed that he had such a long teaching career. Fifth Grade?? Considering his general attitude, it's surprising that he lasted one year with that age group.
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I just have to ask - what is your understanding of a "Caspar Milquetoast"? I think of someone very meek and submissive. Is this how you see Liam? Is there a difference between someone who "goes along to get along" as you see him, Callie and someone who is too weak and submissive? Do you detect a subtle difference?
How do you get "laid off" from teaching the fifth grade? Do you think he got fired? From St. Dyfrig's? Is there really a St. Dyfrig? parochial school?
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Yes Pedln- HOORAY- HOORAY THE 1ST OF MAY
ANDY WANTS TO GO OUT AND PLAY! 8)
Joan-I'm certain that the "powers that be" at St. Dryfigs knew Liam's personality and that he would agree to his dismissal. Liam, (IMO) suffers from a comman malady of apathy and detachment. His whole demeanor is listless and tedious. He has very little interest in anything including his teaching position. It appears that the only thing that interested him was economizing. WHY was that? He had no intentions of going anywhere or doing much other than moving and discarding his past life, which embarrased him when he viewed it at the curbside.
Callie people like that that "go along to get along", at that degree,I see as a potential suicide. Maybe his friend Bundy will spur him on to something of interest. I loved the contrast between this skeletal, (blue black giraffe of a man) phys ed teacher and the meek, weak Liam.
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I would love to know why Ann Tyler "cast" him as a Fifth Grade teacher.
Quoting the opening page: "Teaching wasn't what he'd been trained for. His degree was in philosophy(underlining mine). Oh, don't ask."
Liam's general attitude toward life has probably always been "sitting in his rocking chair, reflecting". There are some hints that he is looking forward to do this in his "summing-up stage" of life.
I'm off to see my granddaughter perform as Cha Cha in "Grease". This character is so against type that it will be a miracle if the teachers/director can get her to be "trashy". :D
BBL
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Liam, 65 years old, and out of a job. It happens!
Everyone says you must plan for retirement. HOw does one do that except for the pension, the savings account, etc. What is the next step? And if you are single or widowed? How does one plan?
Liam thinks that one step is to simplify. I believe him. One, like myself, loses a spouse, cannot take care of the big house, the yard, the memories. So one simplifies.
I did it and found that, like Liam, no one wanted the "stuff." The stuff I had so carefully chosen, the china, the pictures, the antiques. My daughter had her own stuff, didn't have room for mine. Likewise, with nieces.
It happens.
One day my daughter started talking about her own retirement and I asked her what she was going to do the week after she retired. She couldn't think of a single thing to do.
It happens.
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It seems that Liam didn't have much of a plan although he taken care of his finances.
I worked for the Federal Government for 45 years -- had my retirement party and walked out of the office. Have never been back except I do have lunch with people still working there -- nothing much has changed since I left ::)
I sold my house (which I regret) and moved into a townhouse. NO don't want another job. Would like to travel more but am on oxygen so kind of expensive and cumbersome.
Am trying to scale back - too many books, movies, etc. I remember when I lived in California in the 60s I lived in an apartment with one room and bath. How could I squeeze all I have now into that apartment ???
I wouldn't have moved out to suburbs unless alternate transportation. If he wasn't able to drive anymore ( a frightening thought) he would need a way to get around. Probably more activities in town which would be attractive to him - a college perhaps.
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I came here last night(the end of our May1) but the place was empty, so I tiptoed out again. I'll have to recheck my time differences.
Alf you took the words out of my mouth. You said "apathy and detachment" and I had jotted down "apathetic and dispirited". He reminds me of that dog inthe song that's howling because he's sitting on something, but can't be bothered to get up.
He's looking forward to "the final stage"? Good grief Liam. Get a grip, you're 61! It's a big world.
He could travel, teach english as a 2nd language, volunteer for meals on wheels. Something. Lots of people say they started living after retirement.
I wonder at what point it all went wrong. Did he finish his degree, eager and hopeful and then something took his spirit away?
Anne Tyler's characters often seem to want an austere life. I remember Delia in Ladder Of Years with her belongings in a cardboard box.
So true Ella, my step-father always skited that his "stuff" was the best until he couldn't give it away when they had to move to a nursing home. New stuff is so cheap now.
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JoanP, trying to answer you about Casper Milqtoast. I agree with Callie, Liam goes along to get along. And as we’ve seen in just this section, he lets others kind of push him around, take advantage of him. Perhaps not meek, per se, but I can just hear them over at St. Dyfigs. “We have to consolidate. It’ll be easier to let Pennywell goes than so and so. He won’t fight it or put up a fuss.”
Liam's general attitude toward life has probably always been "sitting in his rocking chair, reflecting". There are some hints that he is looking forward to do this in his "summing-up stage" of life.
Good point, Callie. You’re saying, he’s a thinker, not a doer? And next someone will say “those who can, do, and those who can’t, teach” and will incite a small riot among all of us teachers here.
Ella asks how one plans for retirement. I don’t know. When I was part of the teaching staff the attitude was , “when you’re ready to retire, you’ll know it.” And it was true. “Yep, I think this is the year.” But as far as planning for it – financially, a little bit, but emotionally, mentally? No. My house is paid for, so my rent is pretty cheap. And while I’m not going to let it fall down around me, it will probably be one of those fixer uppers or “as is.”
I had trouble understanding why Liam wanted to move, as he doesn’t’ seem to be too worried about his finances. Perhaps it is as Andy says, economizing was the only thing that really interested him. Perhaps he’s trying to emulate the life of one of his beloved philosophers.
Sally, I agree, not being able to drive anymore is a very frightening thought. I would have to move.
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Liam, seems drab and dull, to me. Two broken marriages. Little contact with his daughters. I don't quite understand why he is so determined to remember the night's burglary. When Damien entered the picture I thought that perhaps he was the burglarer. I would have liked the author to say why he didn't find a job in Philosophy. That seems to be the one area of interest for him.
I stopped working because of a fall at work. I was a welfare suprivisor, and loved my job. I ended up in a hospital bed, with 40 lbs. of traction hung on me, for two years. I still walk with a cane, and am in pain a lot of the time. So, there was no planning ahead, for me. My husband had gone blind, and we spent a lot of time, quietly at home. We both liked to read, and watch PBS, and the history channel.
For a few years after his dearh, about the only place I went was to doctor's appointments. By then, I had learned to manage my pain, some. I joined a widow's group, and did quite a few social things. I traveled, played bridge, and did some volunteer work. The last few years, my pain has increased, again. Now, I am quite happy being at home. The computer has been a real God send for me. I watch a lot of PBS, and the history channel, as well as reading. So, I am quite happy in my final years.
Sheila
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Pedln, re your comment “those who can, do, and those who can’t, teach” and will incite a small riot among all of us teachers here. As a former teacher as well as the daughter and wife of teachers, I would be in the front line of the march. :)
I agree that Liam doesn't (can't??) put his thoughts into action. He lacks the ability to communicate. Examples: (Disclaimer: I have the Large Print version and doubt that page numbers will work. These are all from Chapter One)
1) He assumed Damion would ride with Bundy. When he hopped in with Liam, Liam couldn't think of anything to say (to his daughter's boyfriend ???).
2) He contemplated asking how his daughter, Kitty, was - but didn't. (Seems to me this would be a good conversation opener)
3) He invisioned Bundy staying for the "traditional" beer and pizza - but never said a word.
4) He felt it would be useless to remind his sister he didn't eat meat - so he just let it go.
Although I taught for ten years, I was The Executive Director of Household Traffic Control (homemaker ;)) for the remaining 24 /1/2 years of my husband's life. I was widowed suddenly when I was 59 - got my act together a couple of years later - and have lived very independently ever since. I'm probably as close to Liam's status now than I've ever been but I don't feel defeated..
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Andy, I see detachment, but not really depression. I don't see him suicidal. He just seems to want to be left alone with his "beloved books." Callie, those are such good examples of Liam's inability to communicate. Do you think he wants to be left alone so he doesn't have to exert himself to make conversation? To me he seems so alone, without actually feeling lonely. He seems to crave solitude.
Let's check Liam's age...If he's 60, 61, he's just a bit short of getting collecting Social Security...It sounds as if this is an unplanned for "retirement," doesn't it? It seems as if our fifth grade teacher is going to need to economize, especially since he doesn't seem to be thinking of looking for another teaching job - is not yet eligible for SS. I'm wondering if St. Dyfrig's had much of a retirement plan, as you did, Kidsal Are you at all familiar with Baltimore? Surely the move out of old town to the neighborhood out near the Beltway was dictated by the need to economize.
What did you think of his new apartment? Would you have moved here? We're talking about selling the house (we've lived here for 35 years) and moving to something smaller. Will you tell about your regrets selling your house, Kidsal?
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Callie, I felt sorry for those fifth graders. Wide-eyed, impressionistic, full of energy...in need of a teacher who can channel this energy. Clearly this does not describe our introspective unfulfulled philosopher, does it? Sheila sees him as "dull and drab." I can't imagine what his classroom had been like. I have to believe that the author will tell us how a Philosophy major ended up teaching fifth grade. (I'm wondering what were his teaching qualifications? Did he have any?)
I'm still not sure what Liam wants to do in the summing up stage of his life. He talks about reading all day and reflecting in his rocking chair, but then there are times he looks forward "with curiosity" to what the next phase will bring. He has no plans - seems to be waiting passively to see what's going to happen.
How "trashy" was Cha Cha today?
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Ella, I'm as puzzled as you are about planning for retirement. BUT I am very envious of those who know how to plan. Have you seen the AARP commercial on TV - all those people who say what they are going to do once they retire? It reminds me of those who knew what they wanted when they left high school - what they wanted to major in when they went to college. "I wanted to be a VET since I was ten years old." I will be watching as we get into the book, trying to solve the question - how does one plan for retirement? As you say though, "stuff happens" that derail the best of plans. At least if you have a plan, you can make adjustments to it as life happens. But what if you have no plan to start out with? Do you wait, as Liam seems to be doing, to see what happens next?
Octavia, I'm going to look forward to your posts from the antipodes first thing in the morning. See, Octavia is one of those people from the AARP ads...full of ideas for meaningful retirement years. And Sheila found a way to get out, travel, volunteer and make social contact - so important. So un-like Liam. The very opposite.
You know what - I think we are going to learn a lot from one another during this discussion. I was wondering whether Anne Tyler's own retirement would resemble her characters' - but finally decided she will never retire - will keep on writing... I hope she does.
What do you think of her writing style.
I like the contrast you write about, Andy -
"the contrast between this skeletal, (blue black giraffe of a man) phys ed teacher and the meek, weak Liam." I see tall and slim, but what about the "blue-black giraffe" though? What is AnneT trying to convey with these colors?
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Just a quick "off subject" comment in response to JoanP's question. Cha Cha, a/k/a #1 granddaughter, was "sassy trashy" and did a good job. Thanks for asking.
Back on topic: Whatever Liam was thinking about the coming years, he certainly had a rude interruption, didn't he? How clever of Ann Tyler to hit us with the concluding sentence of Chapter 1. Can't wait to turn the page tomorrow.
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Alf, I agree that Liam seems to suffer from apathy and detachment. He appears to be listless--just exists in whatever circumstance he finds himself in. I feel that he probably wasn't a very good teacher and just stayed in that position because it was where he ended up. He doesn't seem to have much drive or ambition. Now that he doesn't have a job, he doesn't seem to know what to do with himself. I believe that I read that he was 61, so he probably had to exist on a meager pension until ss kicked in. He probably moved to economize; but mainly I think that it just gave him something to do. The fact that he doesn't seem to have many friends (in spite of living/teaching in the same area for years) and he is not very close to his family seems to describe what kind of person he is.
Sally
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Well you hid from me again. I finally found you though today. can't do much posting here or anywhere though because I pulled an all night read the other night. I was reading a book , on my kindle of course, that I literally could not put down. I had to finish it. It was It was 3:00 AM when I finished it. Now my poor eyes are one more mess. They hurt and burn so that I can hardly stand it. I cannot see much at all. So it is rest for my poor eyes until they improve a little.Joan Grimes
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Holy smokes JoanG- what in the world are you reading that is that good, to force you to stay up all night and read? I'm jealous. I would love to find a book that had that affect on me again.
JoanP- you agree with the depression but not the suicide ideation? Well let's count the ways he is depressed.
Overview
Major depression is when a person has five or more symptoms of depression for at least 2 weeks. These symptoms include feeling sad, hopeless, worthless, or pessimistic. In addition, people with major depression often have behavior changes, such as new eating and sleeping patterns.
Symptoms
Agitation, restlessness, and irritability - he has all of these
Dramatic change in appetite, often with weight gain or loss ?
Extreme difficulty concentrating- he is obsessed with this break in
Fatigue and lack of energy + for those
Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness Bingo
Feelings of worthlessness, self-hate, and inappropriate guilt- +
Inactivity and withdrawal from usual activities, a loss of interest or pleasure in activities that were once enjoyed - +
Thoughts of death or suicide
Trouble sleeping or excessive sleeping
Offered from a health site.
Without help many people become suicidal. Will Liam find help somehow? We don't know but his attitude sure scares me and if I were a relative or close friend I would keep an eye on him- very closely
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The library has not come through with my copy of Noah's Compass to date . I reserved a copy in Mid-April. So I will continue to lurk and read your posts .
I retired at age 62 after working for 42 years. I traveled each summer on a vacation . I did not wait for retirement to travel as I knew my discretionary funds would be limited in retirement.
I have always ( still do) planned ahead .
My friends would tease me and ask " how is your ten year plan ? " Have you got it down to five or is it still at ten ?" I would just laugh and I knew I was doing what was right for me .
In retirement I took Adult Education Classes which interested me because I believe in LIfe Long Learning. I redirected my energy an did a huge amount of a variety of Volunteer work. Some of which were educational , some recreational and some health related .
As the physical stressers of the aging body intervened I find it necessary to readjust my energy to accommodate the changes .
The title of the book "Noah's Compass " made me think . Why that title ? I doubt Noah had an actual man made compass .
I thought yes, indeed we need to establish a compass based on a positive attitude otherwise we sail on uncharted waters and can get lost and perhaps drown emotionally .
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Yes, JoanG, please tell us the title of the book so compelling that you stayed up all night to finish! But rest those eyes first!
Retired, you can add much to this discussion while waiting for your book. You already have! Please stay with us! We non-planners need to hear from you "planners." I'm interested in the type of volunteer work that you did when you retired. There are so many possibilities, it's hard to narrow them down. How did you decide where to spend your time?
You bring up an interesting question about the title. Right now, it doesn't seem that Liam has a compass. Did Noah? Or did Noah leave his fate in the hands of a higher power? I like what you said about "establishing a compass based on a positive attitude otherwise we sail on uncharted waters and can get lost and perhaps drown emotionally ." That might describe Noah, but Liam?
Anne Tyler is known for revealing her characters in layers, chapter by chapter. I'm sure we'll have such questions answered as we go along...and we'll learn more about Liam and how he got to where he is.
Andy, I'm still questioning whether Liam is suicidal, or even near it.. I've reread Chapter I, looking for five signs of depression that you see...
Back in a minute...
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I'm looking at the signs of depression that indicate Liam is a potential suicide in your estimation - Remember, we are talking about the Liam we meet in the first chapter - before the assault..
1. Agitation, restlessness, and irritability - he has all of these Please indicate (I don't see this - maybe if you give some examples? Instead, I see the opposite - resigned, docile...obedient. An example would be the way he accepts his sister's direction to make up his bed before he crashes. He comments that this was a good suggestion, that she knew what she was talking about.
2. Dramatic change in appetite, often with weight gain or loss ? (I don't see this - although he plans on take-out food - and we see him eating a jelly sandwich for lunch. When was the last time you ate a jelly sandwich? I think he just hasn't located a market yet.)
3. Extreme difficulty concentrating- he is obsessed with this break in (This is chapter one - there has been no break in at this point.)
4.Fatigue and lack of energy + for those (He's just tired from the move - I don't think this is a sign of anything other than that, do you?
5. Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness Bingo (What do you mean - Bingo? He feels he has saved enough, that he has a pension. I don't see that he is feeling hopeless or helpless at this point. Example?)
6. Feelings of worthlessness, self-hate, and inappropriate guilt- + (I don't see self-hate or guilt. I see a man who hasn't made any plans, who has just drifted along waiting for things to happen to him.
I may be missing something...and would be happy to consider your conclusions - examples would help.)
I see him "enthusiastic" (Tyler's word) about economizing, about simplifying. He likes his built-in bookcases. Did you notice that he is "humming" as he puts up additional shelving. I think he's happier than he had been at St. Dygfrid's with the "endless niggling paperwork..."
The last sentence in Chapter One caught Callie's attention - how about the next to the last sentence?
"This is it, he thought. The very end of the line. And he felt a mild stirring of curiosity."
What do you think Anne T is saying here?
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Perhaps Liam needs a devil’s advocate in his corner. (Even though I’m going to jump his case tomorrow.) Maybe it’s because he reminds me of a family member – a little bit. Same kind of dry, unappreciated humor with his BUMPER STICKER bumper sticker and T-SHIRT t-shirt.
Sheila says he’s drab. I think he marches to a different drummer. He only wants to sit in his rocking chair and read. He reminds me of Tevye, whose big desire was to sit with the learned men and discuss the Talmud. Of course, Tevye was a bit more energetic than Liam.
Sally, I agree with you that he does not have many friends. Probably only Bundy. But, “in the living room he arranged the [three] chairs in what he hoped was a friendly conversational grouping.” He’s most likely not thinking, as he does this, about the people he’ll invite over.
yes, indeed we need to establish a compass based on a positive attitude otherwise we sail on uncharted waters and can get lost and perhaps drown emotionally .
Retirement, you may not have the book yet, but you certainly are right on there.
Andy, thank you for the list of depression symptoms. No doubt we will be referring to those again.
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oh shoot. WARNING. I'M AHEAD OF CHAPTER ONE HERE AND UNWILLING TO START OVER. SO SKIP ME UNTIL NEXT TIME. . . . I really like what JoanP says. CLAIRE
Liam is a gentle thoughtful person who asks himself "why not" when others direct him and tell him how to live. He's very reasonable and in the end some hting of a WIMP.
Now, having lost his memory of the attack on him and his resultant awakening in the hospital, he feels as if he has lost a part of himself and he wants it back, so with nothing else in particular to do, he sets out to find it and gets involved with others more than he has ever been before. In searching for this missing bit of his old life, he finds himsel beginning a new one. It is something like a COMING OF AGE theme.
I'm reading at my own pace and trying not to move to fast, to mess it up for others so this is just a general overview.
claire
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planning for retirement??
When I was thirty I made a choice between music and art. I chose ART because of the physical changes that I expected to happen as I aged. As it turns out I was right since my hearing has changed more radically than my vision. But in doing so I made another choice which is to NOT retire at all. Making things works for a lifetime. Georgia Okeefe, blind and deaf in old age still handled clay, letting her hands form what they would. Creativity can go on for ever if we let it.
claire
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My grands were here for the weekend and monopolized the computer. That made me late. Sorry.
Anne Tyler starts this story in medias res - she comes right to the point. She has set the course and we have no choice but follow where she leads us. But I am not so sure it leads to retirement. His lay-off from school (which "down-sized") seems to have been somewhat arbitrary, and Bundy for one suggested unfairness and that Liam should not have taken the decision so affably. True enough. But it was not Liam's nature to object.
Chapter I gives us a first look at what hLiam is like: a little detached;self-effacing - perhaps to a fault; uncomfortable with casual conversation; set in his ways and routines (how to tug in the bed sheets tightly); having firm opinions about some things; reluctant to accept the benefits of electronic devices (he had no computer). As he is shown in Chapter 1, deep down he's not really ready [/b]for retirement. We see him wonder what he'd do with all the free time he'll have.
Liam does not have to worry about his financiale future, we read in Chapter 1; he had a savings account and the promise of a pension, but , obviouscautious by nature, he felt he needed to economize. Hence the move to a smaller, cheaper apartment.
(And yet, perhaps he should have planned the move more carefully, especially the location of the new apartment. But then we wouldn't have this story :).)
We meet Liam's sister Julia in Chapter 1; in Chapter 2 other family members appear : his ex-wife, the daughters. The writing is wonderful and quite funny. Doesn't anyone think so? Why should we readers be down-hearted at this point? And by retirement? Please !!!
Was there really something physically wrong with Liam before the burglary? That was not my impression. So I must re-read the early chapters. As for Bundy, the description of him (=skeletal black-blue gorilla) did not ring a bell until LATER.
Tyler's prose flows over us so smoothly, so easily, that taking notes comes after the fact - for me a least. Aha, another reason for re-reading, I find.
Her style is perfect, the teenage jargon with all those unnecessary "like"s is right on.
Liam may feel is loneliness more now, but, with respect, I do not see him as clinically depressed, and certainly not suicidal.
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An interesting point, Claire – A Coming of Age theme. We’ll want to watch for that in the coming chapters. Do we come into retirement with some maturing, or some changing to do? I’ve just recently started Bruce Frankel’s What Should I do With the Rest of My Life, and so far have only read about Robby and one other, a woman who began competitive running in her sixties. It will be interesting to compare their actions with those of Liam. Might there be parallels between them and him.
Traude, I’m glad to see you talk about routines – the tight tucking of the sheets. And also he’ll sit in the same chair in the kitchen. As Tyler tells us, “he had a fondness for routine.” How about the rest of us. Do we like our routines? Do we adapt easily when they’re disrupted? Do we acquire more routines as we age. Can we still be spontaneous?
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Good Monday morning,Pedln, we're here at the same time this morning - I just saw your post, will edit this...
I think that Bruce Frankel's book, "What Should I Do with the Rest of My Life"
would be a great adjunct to this discussion - The link is in the heading...My copy is on the way. We can share insights as we go along...
You asked, "do we acquire more routines as we age?" When I read that, I asked myself - "do we require more routines as we age? I know I do. I've always been sort of "routine-free" but as memory worsens, I admit routine helps.
Pedln used a word to describe Liam yesterday when talking about his "dry, unappreciated sense of humor." "Unappreciated" seems to be a good description of Liam. His humor, his talents, his knowledge. Traudee (good morning, so glad your grands relinquished the computer!) writes of his self-effacing ways, his detachment. His lack of self-expression seems to be the reason for the fact that he is not appreciated by others. There was a glimmer when young Damian noticed his bumper sticker...
So today we move on to learn more about Liam's memory loss and what has been called his "obsession" to remember the night of the attack. Do you think it is unusual to want to remember - or should he forget and move on with his life? We get to learn much more about Liam's life before the attack and see if we agree with Andy - that he is and has been depressed. Maybe even learn the reasons why.
Claire writes - "In searching for this missing bit of his old life, he finds himself beginning a new one. It is something like a COMING OF AGE theme." This is so like Anne Tyler, isn't it? (Traudee, yes, I too find her dry humor quite funny. Do you think it resembles Liam's at all?) We're not going to search the story backwards to remember the attack. Life goes on. Perhaps this is what Liam, the philosopher, meant when he said he was looking forward to the next phase of his life "with curiosity." No compass, just looking forward to see what will happen next as he drifts along into sleep.
Claire, two questions -
~Does your kindle tell chapter numbers? Are you going to have trouble knowing when a new chapter begins when trying to follow the discussion schedule in the heading?
~ Did your interest in music continue once you chose Art? I really liked what you said - "I made another choice which is to NOT retire at all."
I'm wondering what the rest of you think about this.
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So now here’s Liam. He has just awakened, and he’s in a hospital room. WHAT?
Imagine yourself there. Your head hurts, you know it’s bandaged. You remember your address, but not your new phone number. (I can sympathize with that, it took a year to remember the cell phone number.) And the nurse just came on duty so she doesn’t know anything either, except that you’ve had a concussion. What to do?
(Good morning, Joan, just saw your post.)
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Good morning, all! What a great start here, everyone!
I'm mainly posted to "mark" this place, as I haven't had time yet to read all the previous posts, and don't want to overlap.
I love Tyler's writing style, having read 8 or 9 of her previous novels.
She sets the stage so very well, I feel like I'm driving through the city.
I've been to Baltimore (pronounced: Baaal ' mur) loads of times, mostly to attend baseball games, but also to visit the Inner Harbor.
Movies set there also come to mind ... have to search memory to get titles ... not based on her books, but other writers.
Slammed with Latin assignments today, so more later.
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I identify a lot with Liam. I enjoy my solitude. Do not want my telephone ringing all of the time. Between my books, selective TV, and my computer, I am content. As a younger person, I thought I like group gatherings, and parties. More and more I just want to be quietly at home. Many of my friends have moved away, or died. Making new ones, face to face seems like too much work, at this time in my life. Computer friends seem to fill the void.
Unfortunately, I did not take into account the effect health problems would have on my activities. So many of the things I thought about doing in my advancing years, are not physically possible. I always wanted to learn to play the guitar, but cannot do that, due to arthritis. I wanted to be a foster grandmother, and looked into doing that, but my income slightly exceeds their limit. Travel is no longer an option either, except a yearly flight from California to Ohio, to see my son and his family. Walking is difficult, too. I am very grateful to be content at home.
It seems to me that Liam has always been frugal. He has savings, and he has never had a TV, or a computer. He doesn't seem to have done much traveling, if any. He doesn't seem to see his family very often. It seems to me that books are his primary expenditure. Of course, buying books can be expensive, as we all know.
Your praise of "What To Do With The Rest Of Your Life, sent me to order it on my Kindle. Yes, books do have chapters numbered on Kindle. There is also a listing of all of my books, from which to select what I want to read. I can save my place in each of my books.
Routines have always changed from one age, to the next. I like routine, it is familiar and comfortable. Things done in my youth, are no longer possible. I enjoy the familiar, it is comfortable.
PEDLIN, I agree, Liam marches to a different drummer. So, do I. Many people I have known, have been uncomfortanble about my solitude. My comment about Liam being drab, is about how others probably see his life. I do not think that he thinks of his life, as drab.
I do not think that Liam is depressed, or suicidal. I find myself wondering what would happen if he were with other philosophers. I think he would blossom. Teaching 5th grade was a way of making a lving. Nothing else, apparently.
Sheila
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sheila your life sounds like mine except that I already play the guitar and have since I got married and no longer had access to a piano. my folks bought me my first one and it has been my best friend ever since. Arthritis isn't as much a problem as I thought it would be. but having other distractions is. My left hand fingures have softened and finding a comfortable place for the body is dificult. I taught folk guitar for nine years and own a martin with steel strings which hurt. the old beach guitar is ok but has a bent neck and there are two others. addicted I guess. guitars are lovely instruments just to hold.
My kindle keeps me reading at six times size. and like you I live alone and find it restful. I get excited when with friendly others and tired too. I've been sleeping a lot. I guess eighty-two is typical for that. old cats and dogs do it too.
I'm at chapter thirteen so will not comment right now on the book for fear of leeping ahead too far.
LIam is loafing.I envy him his physical youth. sixty is still young in many ways. I'm missing the energy to do what I have always enjoyed and arthritis makes it hard to find comfortable places to read, paint, make music, walk near the beach... the air is so fresh . . . that is a curse . . .do you live in california too. San Clement near the shore here.
claire
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yes the kindle has chapters. and yess I love music to make and to listen to but no longer to sight read with aging eyes and focus problems a music staff has three horizontal lines for every single one. and I now have the worlds worst piano but it was free. a 1918 hulk of a wurlitzer player piano. ice finish terrible sound.. missing some strings, marrow pads so some of them go on sounding while playing others. and I'm getting quite deaf. Listening is still good with certain instruments but nothng too symphonic. mushy. sigh
the verde requiem still works though. so lovely. . . .and old pop too.
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I live in Arkansas and we had storms the whole weekend. It cleared up yesterday, but phone, cable and computer were still out until late yesterday afternoon.
I thought Liam was relieved to be downsized. Someone else made the decision for him to quit. He has been wanting to have time to sit and read all the philosophy books he wants, now he has it. And with the great excuse that he was "downsized". I think he has a very rich inner intellectual life and this shows in his dry sense of humor. He sees humor where others might not. --- Because his degree was in Philosophy, perhaps he felt teaching 5th graders was beneath him (his ex-wife and sister certainly did). But I think he perservered and was a kind, thoughtful teacher.
He wanted to simplify his life and thought moving to an austere apartment was just the ticket.
And then the unthinkable happens...he's conked on the head and wakes up in the hospital.
When I started reading this book I was wondering where it was going...lots to think about.
Evelyn
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Liam seems to be out of step in a world where material possessions and status in life, is seen as the measure of success.
His daughters treat him as a joke, and make fun of him, call him Mr. Magoo. He expects Xianthe to be putting him down to her sisters. "Can you believe what he's done this time?".
I feel that more and more nowadays, our possessions and our work define who we are.
Xianthe call his apartment a "rinky-dink' starter apartment" and scoffs at his so-called car, a used Geo Prizm. I've never seen a Geo Prizm, but the inference is plain, you're a loser!
Every time I look at Real Estate ads. here, and see houses referred to as 'ideal first home', I want to say, who sez? Why is it implicit that we must keep moving up? Keep up with the Jones's.
I feel much more sympathetic towards Liam now. He's shown he can be tolerant, he sticks up for Damien when Xianthe calls him a drug addict. I loved the description of Damien as 'a walking comma'.
I wonder how the boys he taught felt about him? the book doesn't mention them.
He seems to be genuinely fond of his family, but afraid of what they think of him.
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After Liam woke up in the hospital, people kept asking him what year it was and he replied that half the time he didn't know because the years kept flying past. Wow, I could relate to that. While I usually know what the current year is, I frequently can't remember if something happened one year ago or several years ago. The years do keep flying past, don't they?
When Liam kept asking and trying to remember what happened, people kept telling him to let it go that he probably would rather not know. How often do we say or think "I'd rather not know", but do we really mean it?? I think that it would be rather terrifying to wake up in the hospital, not knowing how you got there. Then after being told that someone broke into your house and attacked you while you were asleep, how difficult it would be to have to go back to your house. How could you feel secure again??
He tells the neurologist that he felt like a part of his life had been stolen from him. That is when he developed his fascination with "the Rememberer". He thought how nice it would be to have someone follow him around reminding him of things he had forgotten. This whole event has given him something new and interesting to think about.
Sally
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Octavia, I didn't know there was such a thing as a "starter" apartment. That Xanthe, already I don't like her, but good old Liam just says her rants are kind of a hobby with her. It's almost like she's blaming her father for his mishap because he's moved into a place that charges less rent. And then, "Dad, please cooperate!" when the poor guy can't possibly tell the doc what day it is or where he is. And then she accuses him of leaving the door unlocked. She's more or less saying everything he does is either wrong or misguided. Poor guy.
Listening is still good with certain instruments but nothng too symphonic. mushy. sigh
Claire, I understand that perfectly. Same here. Single instruments, solo voices, otherwise everything's in the bass clef.
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Salan, isn't it strange that the hospital staff, Xianthe and the policeman who interviewed him, seem irritated instead of sympathetic? I thought he'd get nicer treatment. From my experience,Police are usually kinder to victims.
Liam is a man who likes everything in the right pigeonhole, no loose ends.
I'm wondering at the emphasis on his bed, his firm mattress, his bouncy foam-rubber pillow, and the tucked-in top sheet. Does a tight sheet make him feel safe? Why?
Pedlin, we don't say apartment here, it's a flat or a unit. A unit for some strange reason, costs more than our houses are worth. Otherwise, I'd be pared down and gone. I have rooms I never use, but they still get dirty.
Liam is far too polite with everyone, especially Xianthe. He lets people walk all over him.If he stood up for himself, he'd get more respect.
Apologies for my bad grammar previously. I changed a sentence, but forgot to change the verb.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Noah's Compass ~ May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/noahscompass/noahcover.jpg) | Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first choice for our May Book Club Online discussion. We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience. Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark. "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."
Liam Pennywell is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium, after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged. For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control.
And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous." Really.
We all know a Liam, the novel suggests. In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat. Please plan to join us as we float along together.
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Discussion Schedule
May 1-2 ~ Chapter 1
May 3-7 ~ Chapters 2 & 3
May 8-14 ~ Chapters 4,5,6
May 15-21 ~ Chapters 7,8,9
May 22-28 ~ Chapters 10,11,12
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Some Questions for Your Consideration
May 1 - 7 Chapter 1 - 3
1. Is it a bad thing that that Liam Pennywell got laid off from teaching fifth graders at St. Dyfrig's? Do you think he had been a good teacher?
2. What do you think of Anne Tyler's descriptive writing style in this first chapter? How do you picture Liam's friend, Bundy, as a "blue-black giraffe"?
3. What did you like about Liam's new apartment? Would you have rented it?
4. Can you tell whether Liam is looking forward to the next stage in his life, his retirement? Or does he consider this stage the end of the line? How do you look upon your retirement years?
5. Why do you think Liam is so concerned about not remembering anything about the break-in? He’s been told several times that this is very normal, and he doesn’t seem to have any other memory problems. Have you ever suffered a loss of memory following an injury like this?
6. Latin scholars, did you spot the latin phrase in Chapter 2? What was its meaning?
7. How do the women in his life, his three daughters, his ex-wife and his sister differ in their actions and attitudes towards Liam?
8. What is your opinion of Liam? Does it change, as you learn more about him? (Is it unusual for a 60 year old man not to have a computer, a cell phone or even a television?)
9. Why did Dr. Morrow make time in his busy schedule to see Liam right away? What is the neurologist's prognosis? Just what does Liam expect of someone he calls a “rememberer?”
10. Do you think it is unusual or abnormal for Liam to want to remember the attack? What clues has he learned at this point?
Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available (http://www.amazon.com/);
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life? (http://www.amazon.com/What-Should-Do-Rest-Life/dp/1583333657)
Anne Tyler's Baltimore (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (mailto:ann.bartlett@att.net )
Sheila:
CLAIRE,yes I live in California. Jusat outside of Sacramento. So, I am about 80 miles away from the ocean. I was born, and spent my first 13 years in Long Beach. I still miss the ocean. One of my favorite spots is on the North Coast. But, I am no longer up to traveling.
What is the name of the book which you stayed up all night reading?
Sheila
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Good morning!
Isn't it fascinating to read about how others of us have adjusted to retirement years? I think I agree with you, Claire - sixty is too young to be considering retirement. As you put it, Liam is "loafing." It seems to me he has been putting off living his life for a long time. Evelyn, I agree with you too though - he's relieved to put his teaching years behind him and get back to his early interest in philosophy. Notice these the philosophers are the only books he's kept. That's really downsizing! Sheila thinks Liam would "blossom" if in the company of other philosophers. Wouldn't that be a good story?
If he had a Kindle, he wouldn't even have had to keep them. Do you believe that? Thank you Sheila and Claire for the Kindle information. You can see chapter divisions - you can mark your place in the book. So you can see where Chapter 3 ends and 4 begins? Good! Is anyone else reading the book on a Kindle?
Claire - chapter 13? You are just about finished - but hopefully you will continue to share your observations on these chapters as we go along - they are delightful.
So, do we all agree with Claire and with Sheila - that Anne Tyler is communicating the idea that Liam is too young for the life of solitude he is planning? What do you think was wrong with his plan - before the assault, of course...
I came across this site - 10 Tips for a Happy Retirement Living. (http://seniorliving.about.com/od/retirement/a/retirement_livi.htm)
After reading these tips - I'm not sure Liam was on the right path - maybe that hit on the head was the wake up call he needed?
Need morning coffee - lots to talk about today!
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Liam's isoltation is emphasized when he wakes up in the hospital, isn't it? He appears so vulnerable and alone - no clothes, no wallet, no phone. The phone scene, though humorous, was all too real - is it true that you don't automatically have a phone by your hospital bed anymore? I guess this is because most people have cell phones? (do you?) Liam requested a phone several times - never received it - but then was billed for one. Try to decipher hospital bills!!! Anne Tyler knows what she's writing about!
Octavia - do you think Liam's daughters feel free to make fun of him, because they are so used to doing it - because he hasn't seemed to mind in the past? Is this the way Barbara talks to him? Underneath it all, are they really concerned about him - and his choices? Though Liam is happy with his downsized apartment, his girls are clearly not. I'm not sure at this point whether they are concerned for him, or whether he embarrasses them.
Did you like any of the daughters? Did any of the three exhibit true affection for him? (thinking of Lear)
What did you think of his ex, Barbara? She certainly seemed to know him well. Very competant - can't see why she ever married him, though. They don't seem to match! Do you remember the description of her dancing "like a wild woman- hair flying in all directions? Am I mistaken - was this Barbara? And was she dancing with our Liam?
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Why didn't the police even check for fingerprints - I'm as puzzled as you are Octavia, why they weren't more sympathetic. My guess they were used to investigating such break-ins - and since nothing was stolen and the victim not seriously injured. Liam doesn't feel this way, though. As Sally says, he feels part of his life has been stolen from him.
Sally,. I can completely understand why Liam needs to remember what happened - how else can he return to this apartment? Didn't youngest daughter express the same concern? I guess I'm wondering why everyone else is telling Liam to just forget about the whole thing.
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Good morning, everyone. Well, it seems we all like Liam, but we wish he had a bit more get up and go? Be more like us? Hmmmmmmmm.
I read those tips for retirement, Joan. Do we really need a plan? For me, one of the greatest joys of retirement is being unscheduled. Being free to do what you want to do, when you want to do it. That being said, and being in control of my mind (compos mentis -- help me out here Mippy), I'm off to Meals on Wheels. (On my schedule because I put it there.)
Back later. BTW, I think Kitty, so far, is the most likable of the daughters. At least, she doesn't seem to jump on him as much as the other two.
Interesting description of Barbara, according to Liam -- a medium sort of woman. Is he saying non-descript. And I don't appreciate his reference to Barbara's stodgy school librarian :-[ job.
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Hi, Pedln ~ you are indeed correct, according to the dictionary:
compos mentis: being in full possession of one's mind
Hospital stays are often disorientating, even if there was no violence involved. Just sleeping in a hospital room is disturbing to many people, so no wonder Liam was upset. I agree the cop was mean or gruff, but perhaps that had been Tyler's or her friends' experience with Baltimore police over the years.
I don't think Liam would be suicidal under the circumstances, but yes, he'd likely be confused and annoyed. Do we know him well enough in the first few chapters to be sure, yet?
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Liam hasn't once mentioned a philosopher. I think that his designation as one is simply a writers convenience, a way to show that he is THAT kind of an individual. self sufficient, intelecctual etc. There is so much room here for him to do so. If I am near the end, I'm sill waiting for something to happen, for Tyler to utilize the richness that could be Liam who still has his books and hasn't ven openeed one. His soliturde even shuts out his major interests. He sits with his hands on his knees and remembers. Is it Ok if I go on ahead. I can't really separate the chapters.
WARNING a spoiler here. stop reading unless you already have finished the book.
I have a hard time with book clubs for this very reason. Maybe I should wait to the end and simply write a review.
Claire
Kitty is his most pleasant character and Barbara is acceptable but all the members of his family treat him like a cipher, a thing to be used for baby sitting, occasion ice box rades or recipient of charity.. It is still at an end for me. I keep expecting Eunice who is very aggressive and wants to have a real LIFE, to turn up ready to get together again.
back to the book.
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I read the ten tips to retirement article and it isn't helpful since it is disorganized, wanders a field and is writen bye someone who still feels physically able to make choices a head. Mine all have to do with my being up to a given activity on a given day. Under such circumstances committing to an outside job or group activity isn't possible.
IN addition I've become very selective with whom I want to spend my waining years. So far the most stimulating compay is right here. Orange Co;unty California is very conservative, even anti-intellectual due to so much interest in religion, . . bible study classes abound. My young helper friend, age fifty eight is a dear person but looks startled every time belief is mentioned since I haven't one, and her life is based upon the activities of her church. She naturally thinks I am like her. So when I do mention it it is to ask her for information about her current bible class since I know almost nothing about the subject and she is happy to share. She teaches children and takes continuing education in the subject herself. The intent of her class is to use the stories toexplain the reason for beliefs that are the background for moral and useful lives. sheesh. I know that anyway. Most of us do.
see this is even a place to talk about atheism. vs. believing in a higher power . Liam as an agnostic?
The end of life can be very different in terms of choices , accepting that is the first part of planning for it. PLans are just not all that practical when you never know if there will be a future to plan FOR. proposition??? a no no. Some religious folk are actually planning to see their dead relatives in the Heavenly place they will enter after death.
Here also is a place for Jack Kavocian to peek in. This book does offer much that is relevant to our lives. soooo?
LIam has a world of philosophers thoughts on this subject but we are still waiting. Tyler really did miss the boat.
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now to plan for today. And I will probably change it as I go along. That is the trouble. NOthing I do or plan to do matters. It is a kind of freedom but also a reason to be depressed. "I don't matter"
The activities mentioned are distractions from this sad truth, but in themselves "don't matter. Even the ones that are helpful to others don't matter since SOMEONE will do it if it is really necessary - - sigh. Keeping an eye on what is happening out THERE in the world seems to matter to me. So I am POLITICAL which doesn't work very well in orange county california where others are just the opposite. sigh
claire
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Mippy, I'm beginning to think reading Anne T's novels is like peeling an onion. We begin to smell the strong onion smell as each layer comes off - We know some things about Liam - but surely will learn more as we go on.
Have you ever wondered where she gets the ideas for her rather eccentric characters? Last week I came across this site, an interview - thought that was an interesting comment about Anne T's characters -
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html
"Those quirky eccentrics and bickering oddball families in her books are not a complete invention. Tyler, who lives unobtrusively among the people she writes about, has a gift for capturing the palpable atmosphere of Baltimore's neighbourhoods and Baltimoreans."
You mean if I go to Baltimore, I'll find Anne Tyler characters in the flesh?
In the opinion of some, Baltimore is a living Anne Tyler novel: full of peculiar citizens and strange, inbred traditions. The city is an amalgam of north and south, owing partly to Maryland's historic role as a slave-owning state that stayed in the Union. Anne Tyler herself is a hybrid of north and south. Born in Minneapolis in 1941, she grew up in North Carolina. As a writer, her sense of place, character and language are southern, but she observes from the point of view of an outsider.
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html
Claire, you make a very very good point. It is probably impossible to make a list of what will make a retiree "happy." You can follow those "tips' - watch your diet, volunteer, do all those things, but life has a way of hitting you over the head and messing up all carefully laid plans. Perhaps the secret is expecting the unexpected. Like Liam, look forward to the next day with curiosity, because you never know...
You mentioned philosophers - I thought Liam did refer to some of them by name in the first chapter when he was putting away the books he had saved. - I only recognized one of them - Epictetus- a Greek Stoic. Here are a bunch of his quotes -
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/epictetus.html
The one I liked best because it describes Liam, I thought -
"Freedom is the right to live as we wish."
Pedln, I think that Kitty is the least judgemental of her father and the way he has chosen to live his life. - She does put in her two cents on his new apartment. I agree with her - I don't think Liam is safe there. Even if he locks the patio door.
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I have beentrying to post here ever since the first of May. We have had terrible nthings happening in my life... like my 47 year old daughter having total knee replacement surgery today, along with other family things. My does that sound familar for a retired old lady.Joan Grimes
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JoanP, yes I do think the girls have got away with making fun of him, because he hasn't stopped them. Isn't there a saying that if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got?
I tend to think that it's something to do with his first wife Millie. He thinks of their marriage as a failure. I think losing Millie shook him up badly After her death he wanted 'a plain woman'. In my notes I've written that not remembering her face, almost seemed a plus to him. Can't quickly find it, but that's what I thought.
As to his marrying Barbara, with her wild streak(or exuberant?) I don't think he was always this proper. he was quite relaxed about Damien's pot smoking, probably seeing it as a transient teenage thing.
I think he wanted to contain Barbara, worried she might go too far, and that translated as timid and straitlaced. Barbara gave up on him, but maintained her affection for him.
Or maybe I'm imagining too much?
Retirement. A gift of time to do things for ourselves. So much of a woman's life is taken up with care-giving.
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Mippy, glad to see you here, and JoanG. Joan, I hope your daughter’s surgery went smoothly and that she recoups quickly. My public health daughters tell me knee repl.acement surgery is one of the most successful surgeries. Good track record.
Thinking back to last Thanksgiving weekend, spent in Baltimore with daughter and friend. Loved it. We’re on one of the piers and there’s a guy of indeterminent age, his bike parked nearby, and of course we all think he’s wonderful because he’s reading Henning Mankell (Wallendar) and the NY Times. But who’s the quirky one here? My daughter says, to this perfect stranger, “May I ask you something inappropriate?” And he says, “Oh, nothing is inappropriate.” “Well,” says she, “My friend and I have a friend we think would like you and that you would like her.” E-mails exchanged, etc. Actually they did get together – went to a park or museum or some such. But, he’s in Baltimore, she’s in New York. He’s writing a book.
Liam’s whole family seems a bit strange. At least I don’t understand them. Granted, he’s not anyone’s responsibility, and they’re not particularly close, but if they can criticize him, accuse him of carelessness, etc, the least some of them can do is stick around for a while when he comes home from the hospital, make up his bed, and leave something in the fridge for his supper. Instead he has to fix up something for himself and for Kitty.
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I think Kitty is good for Liam because like a typical teenager, she's self centred and doesn't pander to his hangups. I see his obsession with petty details in a lot of people, especially my step-father, who has few interests and too much time on his hands.
Kitty's like a fresh breeze through his mind, no self pity allowed.
No phones in our public hospitals, but then we aren't paying for our care. I left home in an ambulance when I broke my hip, but if anyone rang, a nurse would bring their call in to me on a mobile. Later my own mobile was brought in.
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I just got my copy of the audiobook sent to me by my library. Once I download it and figure where to save it, I'll be back to discuss the story. Sounds interesting.
I retired six years ago due to incompatibility issues with my new supervisor. And because I had developed fibromyalgia during the three years that I grieved terribly for my deceased husband. Except for a few years without much money, I'm glad I retired. I'll be back to let you know what I've done and how I planned for retirement. For now, I need to get Noah's Compass downloaded and listened to.
Nancy
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Nancy ~ Nice to read your post. You bring up planning for retirement. That emboldens me to talk about mine.
First, those 10 tips ... were kind of annoying. When I was 50 I didn't ask for tips on how to live between 50 and 60, so why would I want tips on how to live between 60 and 70? ... no answer expected ;)
Retirement is strange for me. I am very active in Garden Club, but I never have enough to do; if I spend the whole morning gardening, for example, I'm so tired I fall asleep reading the newspaper after lunch, even if lights are on and lawn mowers outside are noisy. Then at 5 a.m. in the dark and quiet I can't sleep. Been there, done that?
Retirement has been rescued by Latin classes with Ginny, our dear Ginny; this is the fifth year of Latin (Pedln ~ is it really five years?) I also volunteer as a teaching assistant for the 101 class.
For me, the study of Latin is a whole universe better than crossword puzzles for keeping the mind sharp. And the social interaction in class makes all the difference. I cannot do that kind of study on my own any more, as I did in graduate school. For the 2 past summers I've tried to do French review, and when I get to subjunctives, I drown. :P
What do the rest of you do, besides gardening, walking, and volunteer work? Any ideas would be great!
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I am somewhat OBE (Overcome By Events) this week, so am lurking instead of "interpreting". :-X
Mippy, I thought "power naps" were just part of the routine when settling down to read the paper - or watch the news! :D
I like to write - but am too lazy to work on marketing anything :) - so I'm working on a Life Story album of me - with pictures. I've gone about as far as I can...or care to... go with genealogy facts and statistics. So I have plans ::) to turn this information about ancestors into essays of the couples (my parents, their parents, etc.). A cousin who has traveled to various places where our ancestors lived has provided me with pictures that can be worked into those stories.
I also play bridge and occasionally give a program, lead a lesson or cohostess in a couple of women's groups that meet once or twice a month.
The one thing I'm avoiding like the plague is Being In Charge! :)
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One comment about Liam. I think he did have plans for his retirement - but, like me this week, has been OBE.
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retire??? from what. LIFE?
activities for their own sake are fun and creative. activities to simply fill the time, marking time until WHAT are not fulfilling enough to fill a life. I do what I enjoy when I have the energy for it at a given time. . . read, watch TV, write lots of posts here, washington post, salon, open salon, a few friends who write back, telephone visits with others who are also going deaf which is difficult and try to go on being and becoming ME. . . that person eats too much and unwisely, likes to cook for just me? not so good . . . still can't make a simple GOOD cookie. tries to exercise as much as this arthritc bod can endure, not much. keeps up with two aging active in their fifties children thousands of miles away. it adds up I guess. Music and art stilll out there when I have energy and desire but I do sleep a lot days.
cable news tv CNN, MSNBC and Rachel Maddows blogg actually the following news channels CNN, MSNBC,CNBC MONeY AND FINANCIAL NEWS, ALL THREE C-SPAN CHANNELS, ANIMAL PLANET, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC CHANNEL, public channels. . . HBO WHATEVER . I feed my head. It is getting overweight too.
have yet to pay for MOVIES ON DEMAND, but it is available. and I've read over a hundred Kindle books in a year and sampled fifty moe. The Kindle is wonderful and doesn't hurt my eyes very much and can be blown up six times in size.
now is amazon would only fill in he wholes in its library.
The eyes get very tired very fast but Joan knows that one and I suppose others do too. Hot compresses help.
enough but there is lots of life around electronically now. having fun.
and. . . . .occationally BLUE.
any ideas?
claire
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mark
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Nancy and JoanR - Welcome!
We're looking forward to hearing of your own retirement experience and so happy that you both got a copy of the book!
As I read through all of these interesting posts on your own retirement and what you are doing with this "gift of time," as Octavia put it, I find myself wondering what Anne Tyler is trying to tell us with her story of Liam's unplanned, unexpected "retirement." Callie, I agree with you - Liam seems relieved- though not certain that he has "retired" - he's looking forward to getting back to his philosophers, reading and just thinking.
In preparing for this discussion, I read a number of reviews and noted these two comments -
'In this, her 18th novel (18!) Anne Tyler has articulated the melancholy stasis of many older people's lives," as one critic put it.
What is "melancholy stasis"? Do you think it is the occasionally blue spells Claire writes about? Are they part of growing older - to be expected? Or is "stasis" something altogether different? Blues come and go, nostalgia perhaps? But stasis implies something like mired in mud, doesn't it?
Another comment -
"When Anne Tyler was just starting to write Noah’s Compass, a journalist asked her what it was about. She replied, “I’d like to write about a man who feels he has nothing more to expect from his life; but it’s anybody’s guess what the real subject will turn out to be in the end.”-
Maybe that's what retirement is all about - it's anybody's guess what the real subject of our retirement will be. I'll bet Mippy never planned to spend 5 years learning Latin!
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Octavia - I find a disconnect between Liam's early years studying philosophy and where we find him now. Something must have interupted his plans, don't you think? We're told he "didn't get around to writing his dissertation." And then his frail wife dies, leaving him with a two year old daughter. We need more info to understand the reason Liam didn't go on with his thesis - and became a teacher instead. I think something went on with that first wife too that derailed his plans. But I do sense he was always this proper - too introspective to be otherwise. We shall see!
In rereading Chapter 2 when Liam wakes up to find himself in the hospital, I felt sorry for him all over again. He IS so alone. "He was naked and alone and unprotected and unloved." But he doesn't sink in dispair at his predicament. The very next sentence - "Well, this was just a mood he was in, created by current circumstances. He knew it wouldn't' last. "
Do you think Liam is unreasonable in wanting to remember what happened in his apartment? The fact that someone bit his hand tells him that he was awake and probably put up a struggle.
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Our so-called "retirement" has been a huge success. I was employed in our library for many years and enjoying it while my husband had been teaching for even more years. We discovered the fun of collecting antiques, hunting for them and also selling them so we both took early retirement and embarked on a life of really HARD work, lots of fun and adventure for 20+ years, traveling, buying, and selling at shows. We met many interesting people and loved what we were doing. At age 83, my husband suffered colon cancer and has been unable to carry on as we had been. He's been OK for 4 years now, thank goodness, but we have slowed down for sure! After all I'm almost 84 now myself! I keep busy babying the old boy, studying Latin, reading and entertaining the troops of family that show up frequently! We bought our 100 yr. old house more than 50 years ago so the taxes are relatively low for this high-tax area. No worries financially - anyway our wants are simple. Our lives are full and pretty good. I'd say we are happy.
I can't relate to Noah. He seems so unfulfilled and one might go so far as to say "wimpy". He acts so much older than he really is. Of course I've already read only 1/3 of the book.
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JoanP == Stasis -- motionless, a state or condition where there is no action or progress. You said it, mired in mud. I’m not sure Tyler has that right about the “elderly.” I’ve seen bits and pieces, reports, etc. before that say the elderly are among the happiest, or happier than their younger colleagues.
No doubt health and finances are determining factors. As was mentioned here a bit ago (and please forgive me for not remembering who said it) retirement is a gift of time. Kind of like “snow days” for kids and teachers.
This was a day full of many activities, too many perhaps, resulting in a longer than power nap that Mippy and Callie talked about. Somewhere, the day has disappeared, and I’ve forced myself to do a few things I didn’t want to do, so now it’s time to relax.
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it is interesting to me how others are spending these years. MOre please.
claire
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Latin classes are a big part of my life. Also keep connected with book discussion groups - online SeniorLearn and local. Sometimes overwhelmed by too many books to read. TV -- news/news/news - CNN, MSNBC, BBC, C-SPAN. Also PBS and House and Westerns. Lunch out with friends. Spent this evening at our Hospital Board Meeting.
Why do I regret selling my house? First - rent payments. Second - no garage!!!!
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I have always thought of retirement as an opportunity to do what I enjoy. My health at this time of life, prevents me from traveling. My doctor tells me that I have spinal stenosis. It is difficult to stand and to walk. So, I spend most of my time at home, on a heating pad. I am not bored, nor discontented. Most days there are not enough hours in the day to do all that I want to do!
I do genealogy, online. Watch the history channels, PBS, and news channels. I read. I agree with much of what CLAIRE had to say. I remember seeing Western movies, as a child, and hearing our American Indians called "Savages". Their culture was of no value to most, "white" people. When I grew up I met, and married an Hispanic man. My four children, are a combination of Scot/Irish, French, Chilean, and American Indian.
My first husband and I are divorced. Today is Cinco de Mayo, and my daughter and I joined my ex sister-in-law and her son, and his family to celebrate. My sil cooked wondrful Mexican food for our dinner. We had a great time. Sil and I spent most of the time, talking. and remembering our youth. But, I am quite happy to be home, quiet, and looking forward to going back to my regular day of retirement.
Sheila
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Shiela, every 2nd person in Australia seems to be doing genealogy. This has really blossomed in the last 10 yrs or so.
One of our biggies is bowls. At a certain age one is expected to take up lawn bowls. I realise it's great for socialising and exercise, but it doesn't appeal to me. The white uniform even less. Apologies to any lawn bowlers :).
I do get depressed that so many people only read the women's mags.
It's fun reading about other people's retirements.
JoanP, I did find it natural that Liam wanted to find out what happened to him. It'd be like those times you wake from a daytime sleep and feel completely disoriented. The light's dim, is it sunset or sunrise? How long have I been out to it?
But chasing down Dr. Morrow? Now I think it's getting a bit obsessive and a teeny bit weird.
He's definitely socially inept, small talk doesn't come easily to him. He's seems taken aback by Louise's chatty interaction at the doctors, and doesn't like the attention it brings.
Sometimes his detachment reminds me of autism or aspergers.
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I agree, Claire - reading how others are using this "gift of time" is fascinating reading. And for me, opening up many possibilities. Really, we are limited only by our own lack of imagination, don't you agree? I find I am responding particularly to those who find yourselves physically limited. You persevere and you succeed!
"Most days there are not enough hours in the day to do all that I want to do!" Sheila
JoanR - yours is a dream retirement - turning your interest into a shared experience too. Did you mean to say you can't relate to Noah? I can understand the slip. Do you think Liam and Noah had anything in common?
I can see where you would be exasperated with someone likd Liam. He does act older than he is, doesn't he? "Unfulfilled" as you say. You'd have to go way back to find where he went off the track to fulfillment. Do you think it's too late for someone to find fulfillment? Do you have hope for him? Perhaps this will turn out to be Anne Tyler's underlying message?
~I want to hear more about lawn bowls and those white uniforms, Octavia...
~No garage - no shed - no basement. I'd really have to downsize, Kidsal. In the same house for 35 years, I'd need a dumpster parked in the driveway to downsize.
~ Pedln, I've seen those reports too about contented elders too but can't find them to bring here. I wonder what the unhappy elders feel when they hear these reports?
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Octavia, I'd like to talk more about this Dr. Morrow. I would agree it would be "a bit obsessive" if Liam had picked up a phone book and hunted for a neurologist to verify what others have been telling him...that he is not going to remember what happened. That he is not going to remember his assailant's face. But to Liam it is important. Really important. In the past, we've seen him squelch his true feelings in Oder to avoid confrontation. Weren't you somewhat encouraged at his determination to actually do something about how he felt instead of letting it go? Maybe this is a breakthrough? Even if he doesn't learn his assailant's identity, Liam seems to be acting out of the character we have seen til now, don't you think?
The reason I don't think it was an obsessive act - Liam actually knew this neurologist. Had spent time in his house tutoring his son. Didn't you get a different picture of Liam as a teacher when reading of his interaction with the Morrow boy? Wasn't it a natural thing to pick up the phone and call Dr. Morrow, a former acquaintance?
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I like the way Tyler slowly releases little pieces of the puzzle for us to pick up. Now we know that twenty years earlier Liam taught ancient history (high school level?) to boys at a different school, the Freemont School, which, seeing as how Dr. Morrow’s son attended, might be a bit more selective. I get the feeling that S. Dyfrig’s might be where students go when they can’t get in anywhere else.
So, after 20 years with no contact, Liam calls Dr. Morrow, and is pleased to find that the doctor remembers him – “Oh yes, the philosopher.”
I did find it natural that Liam wanted to find out what happened to him. It'd be like those times you wake from a daytime sleep and feel completely disoriented. The light's dim, is it sunset or sunrise? How long have I been out to it?
Octavia, well put. I can understand him wanting to know what happened. I’d want to know how I acted – did I say anything, did I fight the intruder, why did he bite me? But I also think I’d be a bit more accepting of the fact that not remembering is normal. Liam doesn’t seem to have other memory problems.
Sheila, your Cinco de Mayo celebration sounds great. Cinco de Mayo was mentioned a lot on the TV yesterday, much more than I’d ever noticed before. I think that’s good, that as the country becomes more diversified we’re learning more about what makes it tick.
Kidsal, yeah, it would be hard to give up a garage, but what I'd miss most would be my laundry room, which also holds the freezer. Of course, I really have to talk myself down those basement (wet) steps to get there.
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mark
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mark.. I am leaving for a few days, but will try to catch up with this when I return. I do have trauma amnesia about the day of the accident and fully understand how frustrating it is, not to remember.
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Many years ago my husband and I were in a car accident. I came to in the ambulance and couldn't remember who I was. That was very frightening. Fortunately, by the time we got to the hospital, I remembered who I was; but have never remembered what happened only know what happened from the accident report. I never obsessed over what happened, just was so relieved to remember who I was.
After my husband died (a year and a half ago), I realized that all my retirement plans centered around things we would do together, or places we would travel together. I have always been fairly independent, so it has come as a shock to me that I can't seem to jump-start myself. Somehow, I don't want to do alone all the plans we had together. I need to reset my own goals.
Sally
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Sally, Steph, you both have experienced the loss of memory that Anne Tyler writes about. Are you resigned to the fact that those memories are lost for good - or do you believe that you will regain them in time?
Don't you wonder sometimes whether AT actually knew someone who had this experience? I'll bet she did.
Liam sought out Dr. Morrow's help - "a world-renowned authority on insults to the brain." "injuries to the brain" Doesn't it sound as if the doctor believes that the reason for Liam's memory loss is physical, not psychological, when he tells Liam that memories surrounding a head trauma are gone forever, in most cases?
Poor Liam - to make matters worse, the doctor doesn't understand why he would want to remember. Will Liam give up now, and get on with his life?... After all, this is a "world-wide authority telling him he will never remember that night.
Sally brings up something really important here - jump-starting retirement plans that were centered around plans for two. It will be helpful to hear how those of you who have been in her position have made the adjustment. My first thought - I'd look closely at my interest in the joint plans - what was I looking forward to - and go from there - slowly and deliberately. I have to admit that my husband and I have sloppy plans for the retirement we are now sharing - Travel, yes. But that's a trip a year - and the rest centers around visits to the grandkids. Do you think Anne Tyler might be saying that in the end we are ALL in Liam's shoes - or will be and that in the end, we are all alone and must plan accordingly?
Too much philosophizing so early in the morning. Your turn!
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This is an amazing discussion. Your posts reminded me of a memory I'd not thought of in many years, the way I missed a couple days after serious surgery back the the 70s. I almost died from a missed diagnosis of gall bladder disease, which was caught by a marvelous doctor when my so-called regular gastroenterologist was out on vacation. That jerk of a doctor had sent me for a psychological consult because of abdominal pain of no apparent cause.
.... anyhow ... I lived :D but lost a couple of days. My husband says he had long conversations with me that I never remembered.
The point is I never went searching, as Liam does, for a "rememberer." I just got on with life. Maybe its a female vs. male thing. I had to come home and take care of two toddlers after I recovered, no household help, no family in town, and so I just did what I had to do, and didn't agonize over it.
Does any of this make sense?
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Does any of this make sense?
Yep, the mind, the brain seems to be a strange thing, especially when part of you is having trauma. I don't think I've ever lost days like Liam, or Mippy. But I have been deliberately out for days after surgery. And I think the hospital had a really good idea -- I went under on a Wednesday and woke up on Sunday. And in the ICU the hospital put up huge date pages that one could read from the bed, without spectacles -- SUN, 21 -- and they had them up each day, so that someone coming out from anesthesia would at least know what day it was.
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I don't need trauma to have memory loss. I get it every day in bits and pieces. it seems to be one of the adjustments I have to make with aging. Most of it comes back as needed. Planing ahead doesn't help much because I forget what I have just planned. visual cues remind me as in the mess in the kitchen or the office etc. I did plan to clean up didn't I ???
claire
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i don't really have memory loss I have periods when I do not seem to concentrate. I can be doing something and will stop in the middle of it and start something else and never go back to the first thing I was doing until it is rudely brought to mind by some mistake I have made on my bill paying or something important like that. I know the cause of all this. It is because of the medication I am taking. The thing that worries me about this is wondering if I will be able to concentrate better when I am off the meds. No answer for that now. I will try to contribute to the discussion of retiremnt and planning for it but will do it in several posts so as not to put you all to sleep with my story of my retirement years which etainly has not been all moonlight and roses for me ..If you participate on the SeniorNet Book Discussions you will already know most of it and certainly you will recognize the shock to me .Joan Grimes
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I almost died from a missed diagnosis
Gosh, Mippy! The lesson here seems to be - get a second opinion, do you agree? We're all certainly glad your first doctor went away for that vacation. What do you think caused your memory loss? Anne Tyler's Liam Pennywell had that blunt force injury to his head. I can understand why this injury would affect his brain - cause his brain loss.
I'm still going to defend his need to remember the incident - He says he feels out of control because he can't remember what happened. Doesn't he need to know what his assailant looked like? What if he sees him in the neighborhood? Wouldn't he be in some sort of danger if the assailant recognizes him and thinks Liam can identify him? Do you think Liam fears it was an inside job? Do you believe that he left the patio door unlocked? Liam really wasn't all that forgetful before the attack, was he?
Mippy, I don't think that Liam started out searching for a rememberer. He went to Dr. Morrow to get his professional advice. When the doctor gave him the discouraging news - that he would never remember, he asked for pills that might spark his memory... It was only then that he thought of the rememberer who had accompanied Israel Cope to Dr. Morrow.
I'm not sure if Mr. Cope was trying to remember something or if he knew he was losing his memory due to aging or senility and hired the young lady to take notes and help him remember where he is supposed to be and when.
Liam doesn't need that kind of assistance - why on earth does he think that she would be able to help him retrieve something that happened in the past? He seems to think she has special training that gives her this ability.
Claire, I never read a post of yours without smiling. :D Visual clues indeed! My husband tells me I need to write things down - and to stop relying on my memory for everything. Visual clues. Is he trying to tell me something?
JoanG - It will be interesting to hear how you do when you come off the medication - how much longer? That's a good idea posting in spurts - not because you'll bore anyone, but to save your eyes! (I'll just say here that I do remember moonlight and roses during your retirement years.)
Pedln - a good idea - posting the day of the week and the date in big letters in the ICU. I wonder how many hospitals do that?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Noah's Compass ~ May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited - ANYTIME!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/noahscompass/noahcover.jpg) | Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first choice for our May Book Club Online discussion. We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience. Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark. "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."
Liam Pennywell is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium, after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged. For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control.
And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous." Really.
We all know a Liam, the novel suggests. In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat. Please plan to join us as we float along together.
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Discussion Schedule
May 1-7 ~ Chapters 1,2,3
May 8-14 ~ Chapters 4,5,6
May 15-21 ~ Chapters 7,8,9
May 22-28 ~ Chapters 10,11,12
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Some Questions for Your Consideration
May 8 - 14 Chapters 4 - 6
1. What motivates Liam to overcome his aversion to computers and search for information about Israel Cope? Did he find what he was searching for?
2. What new information does Liam learn from neighbors and the police about the night of his attack? Do you think he saw his assailant?
3. Liam's sister Julia has the ability to remember many details that are news to him. Is this what he thinks a "rememberer" can do for him? What do we know of Liam's memory before the attack?
4. Do you get a sense of place, of Baltimore, in Tyler's description of the buildings and the people on Bunker Street? Did you note/underline any examples of her writing in describing them?
5. Are Barbara's observations valid for believing that Liam is depressed? Does he really like his solitude, being alone?
6. How does Anne Tyler descibe the rememberer? Do you see signs that Liam is physically attracted to her, or is his interest solely in her perceived powers as a rememberer? Does Eunice seem to have a crush on Liam as his daughter believes?
7. He thinks there is something familiar about her. Do you? Could they write one another's resume?
8. Do you think young people are often unaware of their own strengths and need objective help choosing a career path? Do you think similar guidance might help with retirement planning?
9. Are there signs that Liam is beginning to remember the attack? Are his dreams telling him something?
10. Can't Liam see that Eunice has no special skills that can help Israel Cope's memory? Do you see her helping Cope or Liam?
Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available (http://www.amazon.com/);
READERS' GUIDE QUESTIOLNS - CHAPTERS 1-6 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/NoahsCompass_Tyler.html);
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life? (http://www.amazon.com/What-Should-Do-Rest-Life/dp/1583333657)
Anne Tyler's Baltimore (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (mailto:ann.bartlett@att.net )
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I'm finding Liam puzzling and inconsistant - a strange sort of grandpa, isn't he? Detached - I noted the comment where he says he thinks Jonah unattractive, as are all the Pennywells, himself included. Regards the four year old as an alien being. He had three children of his own - don't you wonder what sort of father he must have been? I'll bet he was "detached." No wonder they all talk about him as if he isn't there -more than likely, he never paid them any attention as they were growing up.
On the other hand, Dr. Morrow seems to regard Liam highly for the patience he showed towards his son...and the son, a grown man now, seems to regard Liam with affection. Dr. Morrow even remembers that Liam tutored "Buddy" in history - Seneca it was. Liam made a lasting impression on the boy's father! That doesn't sound like the detached Liam we know.
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JoanG, you will never bore us; I always enjoy your posts. And Claire, likewise. Even if your office is messy, your mind is not. (BTW – a really bad thunderstorm helps clean the office.)
JoanP, how could your retirement plans be “sloppy?” Why do we have to plan for retirement, can’t some things just fall into place? To me, that would be one of the joys of retirement. I think one mistake that people make is to overplan. “Oh, I’m going to have so much free time I can do this and this and this, and now I can help at the XYZ and volunteer for the ABC, etc. etc. etc.” And before you know it, they’re totally bogged down, and still have a hard time saying “no.” (I was going to clean out all the closets and drawers in my house, and it’s been 12 years now and only one drawer is now perfect. 1 ½ , actually.)
This book is so much fun, and Tyler picks up on even the most minor ticks of daily life. SATURDAY CLOTHES – I love it. In chapt. 4 Barbara has come to pick up Kitty. “She wore a Saturday kind of outfit – frumpy, wide slacks and a T-shirt. No doubt she would have dressed differently for whats-his-name.” Liam, this God’s gift to women, also did not think much of Louise’s attire when they went to see Dr. Morrow. He must have a thing against pedal-pushers (old-fashioned capris.) Saturday clothes have now become “supermarket” clothes, or “wear to the gym if I’m not going anywhere else” clothes.
And in little sound-bites Tyler tells us more about the family. We know Liam’s first wife Millie died very young. We know that after Barbara and Liam were divorced, she married Madigan, who apparently was more of a father figure than Liam, and that Madigan died several years ago. As JoanP said, Liam seems detached from his family. But yet, it seems their divorce was amicable, with limited contact.
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Pedin: the writing is wonderful, entertaining lively and real. If any of you have read the Amazon reviews though you already know that this is a SMALL novel and over too soon. enjoy it for each minute it is here. I love Johah's remark about Noah's nautical equipment. "Noah didn't need a compass because he wasn't going anywhere."
claire
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Pedln, I guess the I consider my retirement "sloppy" is because it came upon me with so little, with no thought, no planning. I don't even know when I retired. Am I retired? I do find myself writing "retired" when filling out forms where it asks for "occupation." I started out as a French teacher - When first son was born, we moved to the DC area and I "retired." I tutored kids at "McLean High School...brought baby along with me.
When kids started Preschool, I "retired" from teaching high school. I completed required coursework and taught at the Preschool for six years.. When 4th son (youngest) started Kindergarten, I "retired" from teaching preschool.
Then two friends and I opened a consignment shop - and I worked there for a few days each week for more years than I can remember while the kids were in school. Somewhere during those years, my youngest son's high school needed a French teacher to take over for a teacher who was expecting a baby. That went on for four semesters - and then I was called to substitute when needed.
I did "retire" from that when I started working at the Folger Shakespeare Library-
That came about when I stopped in to find material for a SeniorNet discussion on Othello. They asked me if I wanted a job in the bookstore - summarizing the books in short form to help the sales people. That went on and on until Bruce retired and wanted to travel. So I "retired" - though they kept calling when they needed help in the bookshop. They began to call so often, that I told them I was "retiring."
Now, I realize that I have not been working for several years, though the exercise class I'm in three days a week has just asked me to train as an instructor. I don't think I can commit to regular hours in the gym. Does this mean that I am retired now? I never thought about what I would do when I retired... I don't know how one retires...or makes plans.
What I look back at what I've written, I am reminded of Liam Pennywell...floating from one phase of my life to another. It's giving me something to think about!
So are all of you. I'm paying close attention to everything you are saying.
So sorry this got so long...back to the book!
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Claire, it is a rather slim book in pages, but crammed with so many details, there is much to enjoy at a slow pace or they can be overlooked... I'm enjoyint the attention to the clothing details too. Liam's "transparent" old shirt - he'd hoped that no one noticed, but of course they did. How about Eunice's clothing - the big flowery skirts, the white gauze pants? Liam is noticing everything she wears... Do you think he's falling for her? He's so alone, even though he doesn't seem to notice - I think he's fascinated by her and her willingness to pay attention to him.
Do you think he understands what Eunice's job really is? When will he realize that she won't be of any use to him remembering the attack? When he does, will she still be a person of interest to him? Liam is learning quite a bit about the night of the attack from neighbors and from the police report. Maybe Eunice will help him get all the details down in writing - in a notebook...and the attacker will be discovered this way! It's starting to read like a detective story, isn't it?
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Just off the press. Two retirees in New York City
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/noahscompass/pedln.friend.c.jpg)
Noah posters at the Rubin Museum of Himalayan Art
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hello there
its Deb,
just enjoying your discussion about Liam and this book--was able to get a copy finally, not from the library where I had reserved it, and was 2nd in line.... but from another library 40 minutes from here I usually don't use as I try to keep my books in line by only taking home books from 2 libraries...such a difference for me as in Brownsville, Texas the library has a strict 7 book limit & I am always struggling as to which book I want more...
regarding 'Saturday clothes'....recently on a Toronto news channel there was a bit about clothing in China, and trying to get people to stop wearing the pyjamas out in the streets...they want people to stop doing this for their country's birthday celebrations which are going on I think...when so many visitors from outside the country will be coming...
--they showed a young couple walking down the street, both in the pj's....they looked very nonchalant about their mode of dress
--one elderly lady was interviewed & she was adamant that nothing was going to prevent her from enjoying her comfort in wearing her pj's when going shopping.....she had on what looked to be flannel pyjamas
have caught up in the reading, and don't really feel Liam has much to worry about with his memory....I am almost 59, and I feel many lapses daily...and it worries me....but I like to feel its trying to cope with a number of major anxieties these past few years have hit me with...
-do you think the move & change in job status has upset him so much....that he finds it reassuring to place his focus on struggling to remember the burglary night instead
**eight years ago, my husband, myself & our two dogs in our 1/2 ton truck were run off the road by a car driving in our lane as we came around an S bend in the highway...to avoid a collision my husband drove us off the road & down an incline where we flipped upside down & stopped...I don't remember the flip & how my seatbelt became unbuckled...can't imagine how I would have flipped upside down without hitting my head...I next remember Glenn trying to get the door opened...we all walked away from the accident...I have never been able to retrieve that bit of memory
--can't believe it my dog just came in from being outside & there is snow on his back
well I guess thats my contribution for now...an interesting book though.... I just finished 'the accidental tourist' a couple of months ago, never having read anything before by this author...irony!!
take care
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Welcome, Deb. You’re down there near the Mexican border and you have SNOW? On the second Saturday in May? Wow. Whatever, we’re glad you got a copy of the book and we’re glad to see you here.
don't really feel Liam has much to worry about with his memory
I agree with you, and think he should follow your example and Mippy’s and just get on with it.
-do you think the move & change in job status has upset him so much....that he finds it reassuring to place his focus on struggling to remember the burglary night instead
An interesting point – would that be an example of sublimation?
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hello Pedin
--we are home in Ontario, Canada & it has snowed & there is a layer on the picnic table out back--we live about 2 hours north of Toronto, near Orillia, Ontario, home of Stephen Leacock a well known Canadian writer....but we have wintered in Brownsville, Texas for the last 5 seasons.....we left there about a month ago...so to clarify the snow is in Ontario....
good nite to you all...talk to you later
Deb
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pedln I know both of you ladies in the picture, names please? Met them some where or there twins :).
Retirement: Planed to be in sales of Stanley, Watkins, Avon, fuller brush and Amway so before retirement bought a work van (only two front seats) and invested in all these products BUT upon retirement Mom put me to work for her "whatever she wanted, needed so much for plans on retirement. I retired in 1985, Mom had a stroke in 95 so was here 24/7 till 1997 when she passed in her house where she wanted to. She was worth it as we were friends as well as mother and daughter. Then came the passing of her siblings in International Falls, Mn. a distance of around 800 miles so it was go to their funerals as they passed. Would come home only to take the plane back. She was of a family of eight children. I loved all of them. Then came S/N with the bashes :) so 98 till its closing for me (us) S/N became my extended family as I went to all the bashes but the last one.
Today went to the funeral for a neighbor and friend since 1951. She looked good, they did a good job on her. Betty's husband good friend also asked if it would be alright to stop by and I said yes, Betty and Bob came when mom had had her stroke and said she was the Matriarck (sp) of the neiborhood. They will never know how that made me feel. I have a painting Betty gave me a few years ago, it still hangs where I put it then.
So much for plans for retirement, I went with the flow and hope we find that Liam ends up going with the flow.
There I
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There I go again writing a book. BBL
O yeah bumped my head a few weeks ago and got floaters in my eyes, scary, but getting better.
Arn't you glad I don't post often,smile.
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Ginger!!!!!!!!!!!! Gingeee!! I've been wondering how you were for the longest time - since the "bash" in Montreal, actually. Glad to see you here. The 2 in the photo are Pedln (Ann) and me. She gets to the city (NYC) every once in a while to visit her daughter. The last 2 times, I've managed to get in there to meet her and have an adventure or two. We're both rather hard of hearing but we manage just fine. Stay well!
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Gingee, welcome back! What a pleasant surprise to find you in our midst this morning! It was edifying to read of your retirement. You had a plan, but altered it for good reason. Your mother was so fortunate to have you care for her all those years. I find myself wondering what became of your van stocked with Amway products. Still parked in your driveway?
Deb - glad you are back with us too - book in hand. Add another voice to the growing feeling that Liam ought to forget about remembering the night of the assault and get on with his life.
What do you think he's looking for? What does he hope to accomplish by remembering what happened that night? Do you think that the blow to his head injured a part of his brain, resulting in his memory loss - or do you think that the whole episode was so traumatic that the brain refuses to revisit the event?
Does Eunice agree with you? Or does she understand Liam's need to pursue the memory?
I'm very interested in Israel Cope's problem. What is it that Eunice is trying to help him remember? I mean, is there something specific, or is she just trying to keep him from future memory loss.
Don't you wonder why this billionaire has his headquarters in this rather run-down part of town? There's something incongruous about seeing him pull up to the front of Cope Development in Eunice's old green Corolla? Why is she driving him? Why not a limosine?
Anne Tyler suggests an answer to these questions...without really providing an answer. Liam learned from Cope's biography that his parents had owned a bakery in Baltimore. She describes the buildings on Bunker ST - - "wooden doors "chewed looking"... "bricks crumbling like biscuits..."
Do you suppose the bakery was here on Bunker St.? I'm looking forward to hearing more about Israel Cope and his memory, remembering all the while that it was Mrs. Cope who hired Eunice. Your thoughts - about anything? ;)
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Ginger, How wonderful it is to see you here. I sure have not forgotten any of the bashes and book gatherings where you where you were present. I remember well the first time I met you at the Texas bash. That was quite a while ago.
More tomorrow Folks on the retirement issue.
Joan Grimes
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reading . . . .
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Joan P. I agree. Liam was detached. How coud his family feel attached to him when he always kept himself removed from them??
I had not noticed Tyler's frequent references to clothing until you pointed out "Saturday clothes", Pedln. and mentioned Liam's transparent old shirt. Then Eunice's flowery skirts and white gauze pants. Then Liam's sister complained about his clothing. She said that he was trying to come out even with his clothes. Do you think our clothing tells something about our character/personality?
My head is swimming with thoughts and ideas. I will post more later.
Sally
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Ginger, welcome. You were the very first person from SeniorLearn(Net), you and Annafair, that I met, back in 2002 in DC. It’s soooo good to see you here. Glad you're back.
I love the humor that comes out of these pages --
“No, only iced tea,” Liam said, “ or I think my daughter may have left some Diet Coke.”
“I didn’t know you had a daughter,” Eunice said.
“I have three, in fact.”
“So you are what? Divorced? Widowed?”
“Both,” said Liam. “What do you want?”
Eunice said, “Excuse me?”
"Iced tea or diet coke?"
In fact, this whole thing between Liam and Eunice, this charade about a job, the resume, etc. sounds like a comedy of errors.
Sometimes I need a picture – here’s Liam’s employment, as told to Eunice –
1975 – 1982 – Ancient History at the Freemont School
1982 – 1993 – American History at St. Dyfrig
1993 – 2005 – Fifth grade at St. Dyfrig
(Somewhere did it say he taught 5th grade for 12 years?) Looks like 30 years in all.
Fremont was probably higher up the ladder than St. Dyfrig – The doctor’s son went there and we also have “ The Fremont School? Gosh,” Eunice said.
Public school teachers here in Missouri don’t pay into Social Security, but into a defined benefit pension based on salary and years of service, and after 30 years can retire at any age at full pension, likewise after age 60 regardless of years taught. A friend who retired from a parochial school also gets a pension, but the amounts are lower than the public one.
Sally, it is all enough to make your head swim, isn’t it. It’s not only the clothes being mentioned. So now Liam thinks, “but face it: she was really sort of . . .. hapless. People like Eunice just never had quite figured out gow to get along in the world”
Hmmm, is the pot calling the kettle black?
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JoanP, here we have poor hapless Eunice, biology major, but can’t find a job in her field. Her parents think she’s a failure. And here we have Mr. Cope, who has been part of a company that grew from a single bakery into a renowned development company, although company headquarters have not moved away from the bakery site.
Mrs. Cope and Eunice’s mother play bridge together, and have apparently cried on each other’s shoulders about spouse and daughter. It sounds like Mr. Cope should have retired a long time ago, although no one is to discuss this, and they do try to humor him. So the unemployed Eunice gets a token job to keep tabs on Mr. Cope and hopefully keep him from embarrassing the company and thus letting folks know he isn’t up to the job any more.
“What I do for Mr. C. is, like, I’m his external hard drive . . . But that is NOT to go beyond these walls.”
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Since the day I dont remember was the last day of my husbands conscious life before the accident, I would give anything to remember it. The doctors tell me I never will. Something about short term memory and not transferring.. I have blanks on the first few days in the hospital, because I had three surgeries in rapid succession and way too much anesthesia.. But I dont much care about that. But to remember the last day of my love.. Oh that is my deepest desire.
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Oh {{{Steph}}}, my heart goes out to you. To remember that last day. The very difficult part to grasp is that you weren't spared the memory of the accident - but the day before is lost. It was the anethesia that took your short term memory - and not a head injury? The doctors are telling you the same thing that Dr. Morrow told Anne Tyler's Liam Pennywell. I imagine that the author spoke to neurologists before writing her novel. She usually does her homework before beginning her novel.
Sally, while Liam isn't getting any closer to remembering the assault, he seems a bit less eager to pursue the memory with the help of this Eunice. He seems to be taken with her appearance - and really, there isn't much to notice, is there? She seems as unaware of her appearance as he has been. She's described as "hapless" - ...love the word. "Unfortunate...to be pitied." And Liam is taking in all in. He's NOTICING! Yes, the pot calling the kettle black, Pedln!
I think the way you dress indicates how you feel about yourself, Sally. I'm not sure what Eunice's job is...do you really think this is just a token job, dreamed up by Eunice's mother and Mrs. Cope? They play bridge together, the billionaire's wife and Eunice's mother? Really? Then Eunice must come from that social set. You couldn't tell from the way she dresses - and the" dingy Corolla" she drives. I wonder what Mr. Cope thinks she's doing - shadowing his every move...
Do you really think Liam is physically attracted to her, or is his interest solely in her perceived powers as a rememberer?
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Thoughts on Noah's Compass: Noah didn't need a compass because he had no place to go. I think Liam has lived most of his life without a compass. He simply went with the flow and never seemed to take the initiative to steer himself in another direction. He didn't seem to particularly like teaching, but never tried to get another job. Now that he has lost that job, he not only doesn't have a compass, he no longer has a rudder. He has no place to go & nothing to do. He seems to be lonely & desperate. His decision to downsize & move seems to be one of the few active decisions he has ever made & look what happened to him!
So far, my impression of Liam is that he has always "just existed", but never really lived. He seems to just drift about in whatever circumstances he finds himself in. He has always lived a rather "removed" life. He never bothered to try to get close to his wife or his children or grandchildren. No wonder he finds himself alone.
I love Tyler's writing and her characterizations are excellent. This is certainly a well written book, but I find it somewhat depressing and I don't like Liam's character. I much prefer my protaganist to be likeable!
Sally
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Steph, perhaps, maybe, sometime when you least expect it, that day will come back to you. I surely do hope so.
Thoughts on Noah's Compass: Noah didn't need a compass because he had no place to go. I think Liam has lived most of his life without a compass. He simply went with the flow and never seemed to take the initiative to steer himself in another direction.
Well, put, Sally. Here’s what a couple of other guys had to say about that.
Far better it is to dare mighty things, even though checkered by
failure, than to take rank with those who neither enjoy much or suffer
much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory
nor defeat. -Theodore Roosevelt
When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long
and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones
which open for us. -Alexander Graham Bell
And if you want more in that vein:Living (http://wisdom.mondocolorado.org/random/quotes3.htm)
I was looking for the folks who think Liam’s way is okay. So he’s living, existing, some might say, and then he responds to things that come along. Is that not okay?
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He has no place to go & nothing to do. He seems to be lonely & desperate.
Sally, that might be true - BUT I'm not sure Liam is aware of just how lonely he is. He thinks he likes his solitude and wishes to be left alone with his books. He really doesn't like his visitors' comments on his new place, his diet, his desire to find out what happened to him the night he was attacked in his bed....and YET he feels lonely when he is left alone - hurt almost ...
So he’s living, existing, some might say, and then he responds to things that come along. Is that not okay?
A good question, Pedln. We don't get too much insight as to whether Liam has been happy living this way all those years. If NOT, if as Sally says, then I do feel sorry for him. And yes, annoyed - for wasting his life, just drifting. Too bad nothing shook him up a long time ago. No wonder you don't like him, Sally! Have you read other of Anne Tyler's books? I'm thinking of the Accidental Tourist, Homesick Restaurant - her men all seem so out of touch with themselves until a strong woman comes on the scene to bring a little joy into their lives.
I'm afraid that strong woman might have been Barbara...and she gave up on him. Not sure that Eunice has what it takes. She's a piece of work, isn't she? Can their really be a romance here? They are so much alike - he thinks there is something familiar about her. Maybe he sees himself in her?
Let's take a little poll. Who thinks Liam is happy, at least content, living the life he has been to this point? Who likes Liam just as he is? (I think Eunice does.) Who thinks he's wasting his life? Finds him maddening - unlikeable, even?
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I like Liam very much. I think he has plans for his retirement.The question to me is will he be able to carry out these plans.Joan Grimes
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Thanks JoanK I miss all to. Glad you and Pedin get to visit each other.
JoanP Mom liked garage sales so sold the products at a loss. I still
have the van in the garage and alternate driving it and her car.
The car is a 1985 Coutlas Supreme I have kept up and have many offers for it
but will not sell as I have kept it up and know what I have, no new lemon
for me. Van like new also, both kept in garage.
Hi Joan G. good to see you to. Hi Pedlin good to see you too.
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I think I will take the Alexander Graham Bell saying to heart. I need some sort of compass myself on which direction in life to take now that my plans with Tim are gone.. I can travel as I think about it, but not like before. The sense of adventure is still with me, but I know as a female alone there are things and places not to go.. But I will try to steer a new way.. Exploritas in August seems to be a thing to try for me.. Safe and something to learn..
Anne Tylers men tend to always be a bit directionless.. Her women are the strong characters.
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Steph - you are so wise to follow AG Bell's advice, not to spend your life staring at the closed door. And strong too, though I imagine you don't feel that way. You are a role model for all of us!
I find myself wondering about the men in Anne Tyler's life - could "directionless men" have been her real life role models? Just did a quick search and didn't find an answer to that question, but did find this -
"Tyler’s men tend to be hapless, lackluster clods, solitary victims of their own anemic reliability. That they are typically aligned with some of the most impulsive, eccentric women in literature is one of Tyler’s great innovations and probably one of her great lessons, too: What these men need are women whose socks are too bright."
(I think Eunice fits this description... )
" In one of her rare interviews Tyler told The New York Times that “The real heroes …in my books are first the ones who manage to endure, and second the ones who somehow are able to grant other people the privacy of the space around them and yet still produce some warmth.”
JoanG - are these the reasons you find Liam "likeable" and can overlook his "curmdgeonliness?" !
Another critic wrote - "Unlike Tyler's expressive, emoting female leads, her male characters can be unforthcoming to the point of curmudgeonliness."
Do you think Anne Tyler was trying to present a likeable character? I'm curious why some of you like Liam. I think I'd find him maddening - though I would feel badly for him - if he had been my father. Actually, the more I think about him, the more like my father he is!
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Sally just commented on Anne T's writing, which on the surface doesn't seem to be that complex - rather forthcoming, easy to envision what she is describing - but there are so many levels, not always obvious on the first reading. Last night, I was rereading, looking for something else, and came across this description of how Liam felt the morning after the accident when he woke up in the hospital -
"fastened down like Gulliver, trapped by cords and wires (IV). The nurse entered so swiftly that she set up a breeze."
Did you notice that? "Gulliver" - and "swiftly"? Surely Anne Tyler intended this? A funny coincidence too - Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels is one of the novels up for consideration as a July or August Book Club discussion here. I have NEVER read it, but come across so many references to it I feel I must read it once in my life. If you'd like to read more of the nominated suggestions - or nominate another title you would like to see discussed here this summer, please come to the Suggestion Box (http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=1291.80;num_replies=107) - we need to hear from you!
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Steph, it sounds like your compass is working well, and steering y our sense of adventure. That’s great. Travelling alone can be a little scary, but usually the fears are unfounded. Twenty-some years ago on my first trip to Europe I was to take the overnight train from Oostend to Basel, sleeping in a compartment that held six (you slept in your clothes.) There must have been something in the newspapers about neo-Nazi skinheads because my greatest fear was that the compartment would be filled with skinheads and I would have to stay awake all night. Well, of course there was just a normal group of travellers, including a very nice woman from England who was taking the train because she didn’t like to fly. We had a lovely visit and it was a most pleasant trip.
Hapless – according to the definitions I could find – unfortunate, unlucky. Well, Liam has been unfortunate in his career path – he fell into the first job, and then things went downhill from there. But “hapless” is not something to hold against him. And he’s been depicted as rudderless, but he steered himself to Cope Development and Eunice without any help from anyone else.
Except for being whiny about not remembering the intruder incident (and he is trying to correct that) he doesn’t moan and groan about his problems to others. Of course, Barbara divorced him because “he was not forthcoming.” So, perhaps he should have complained about things that bothered him. On the whole, him family doesn’t seem to show much appreciation for him.
I don’t dislike Liam, but I can see where he might be maddening. Perhaps I’ll change my mind, but if he were a work colleague or a neighbor, I’d probably consider him aloof, and just ignore him. Is he perhaps one of those individuals who relate well to a very few people and ignore everyone else?
JoanP, just saw your post with Gulliver and swiftly. Sharp eye.
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tylers men are usually full of isssues as i remember faintly the ones I've met. I think she doesn't really like them very much. They would bore me.
claire
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JoanP, I Am not sure why I like Liam. Maybe it is just that I feel very sorry for him instead of liking him so much..Joan Grimes
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JoanG.. Aha.. when I think about it, Tylers men do bring out the mother instinct in women.. The Accidental Tourist is a good example of that one.. I loved the book, but kept wanting to shake him.
The Homesick Restaurant again has men who dither and women who do..
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That's what I love about this site. You frequently give me "aha" moments and moments when I say, "Why didn't I think about that?" I completely missed the Gulliver reference!
I get very impatient with Liam. What a lackluster person he is!
Sally
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Thanks for answering that question, JoanG - I've been trying to think of something to like about Liam. I look at him the same way you do. I feel so sorry for him because he is so out of touch with everyone - including himself. Himself most of all. Who is the narrator of the story? Whose point of view are we listening to?
Maternal instinct? Hmmm... Big sister Julia seems to fit that category. And Barbara, at least two of the daughters...all seem to take the exasperated mother role in their criticism.
Is Eunice different? She is a take charge-type in her own way - wants to help with the job hunt and the resume, where she sees him floundering. But does she look at him the way the others do?
"...men who dither and women who do.." - you've put Anne Tyler's message succinctly, Steph. Since she portrays men in this way so consistantly, this must be the way she sees them - dithering, without the help of a strong woman. I'm wondering if there isn't more? It seems that Barbara came on the scene when he needed help after the death of his first wife, leaving him with a toddler to raise? Barbara seems quite strong and capable. A "doer." That didn't work out though. I wonder why not. Anne T seems to be saying that something else is necessary if a "doer" is to convert the ditherer.
Claire - maybe Barbara felt that way too - "bored" - It probably wasn't easy living with such a man, an unhappy teacher, while raising three daughters..."full of issues" - and detached. Now you've got me wondering - does Anne Tyler dislike men in general - or does she feel maternal towards them? (Superior?)
Sally - we're up early this morning! Another who views Liam with impatience. Is there anything specific that gets to you?
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Back to Liam's defense, again. I'm glad to see, JoanG, that you haven't crossed him off your list.
We sure are picking on Liam. So, maybe he’s not Mr. Get Up and Go. From what we can gather, his life did not go according to what had been expected of him. So, he went on with life in another direction, teaching. At one point he notes that he did the things expected of him – got married, had children. He gets downsized, so he makes the decision to move in order to make his dollars go a little further. He hires his daughter’s boyfriend to help him move, along with another friend. He settles in, even hangs pictures the very first day.
So, here we have Liam, managing his life, thank you very much, who, because of one incident, has all these bossy women descending on him. Not only that, they are unkind and/or demanding in their comments, criticisms, and accusations. All things considered, I’d say he’s rather patient. Barbara kind of annoys me.
Interesting question about the narrator, JoanP. Is it Liam? So far, everything seems to be told from his viewpoint. And we never see any of the other characters unless Liam is present.
In another vein, the math isn’t adding up here. Eunice tells Liam that she is 38 years old. And Liam notes that when he was 38 he had three children and his second marriage was behind him. He’s 60 now and Kitty is 17. Go figure.
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hahaaha, Pedln, I do remember pausing at those numbers...Liam is 60 now, Kitty is 17 - so when she was born, he was 43. Liam says when he was 38, his life was behind him, two failed marriages, etc... I suppose that his marriage to Barbara might have been "over" in the sense that they weren't getting along -And Kitty might have been conceived in an effort to revive the marriage. Interesting to think about, isn't it? Were they living together as Kitty was growing up? Have we been told when Liam moved into his own apartment in the city?
Don't you wonder what happened to Liam? Was he always like this? Was it simply a matter of missed opportunity? I trace it back to not finishing his dissertation. Should we be giving him a pass? He is making decisions and getting by. Are we being too tough on him - getting annoyed because he's not doing more with the rest of his life? What would have happened had the intruder not come into his room. You say he made plans, but doing what? What were his plans?
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Did you receive the AARP May Bulletin in the mail - I finally sat down to read it - opened to the "YOUR MONEY" column - and started an article called "Forced to Retire." "Out of a job, but too young to retire." It's about a woman who finds herself out of work at age 63 with a franchise bill coming every month, whether or not it brings in any money. (It's not.) SHe NEEDS a job. The article goes on with depressing unemployment figures - but what will happen to Jan Gissel? I need your help - if you have this bulletin. The article begins on page 14, but then, the whole middle section of my copy is missing. If you have it, will you please finish reading the article and let me know what she does?
Maybe it's true. Maybe there are no jobs for people like Liam. Should he grab that job at Cope Development?
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JoanP, I saw that article, but now I can't find the bulletin itself. As I remember, she retired, with the comment, "Who's going to hire me at 63." The article also spoke of a 60+ man who was let go from his computer services job, who retired because he couldn't find anything. My thinking about him was that while it would certainly be a come-down financially, he could probably earn quite a bit doing free-lance computer services.
Now that we're halfway (or more) through the book, do you think it is about memory? Callie said we'd be surprised, and she's right.
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No, I do not think it is about memory at all...Joan Grimes
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Noah's Compass ~ May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited - ANYTIME!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/noahscompass/noahcover.jpg) | Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first choice for our May Book Club Online discussion. We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience. Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark. "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."
Liam Pennywell is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium, after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged. For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control.
And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous." Really.
We all know a Liam, the novel suggests. In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat. Please plan to join us as we float along together.
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Discussion Schedule
May 1-7 ~ Chapters 1,2,3
May 8-14 ~ Chapters 4,5,6
May 15-21 ~ Chapters 7,8,9
May 22-28 ~ Chapters 10,11,12
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Some Questions for Your Consideration
May 15 - 21 Chapters 7,8,9
1. Do you think Liam was as awkward with his fifth graders as he is with his own four year old grandson? Do you suppose he was as detached from his daughters as they were growing up?
2. Do you know anyone like Liam - not quite a recluse, but who likes to watch conversations without being expected to join in?
3. Eunice sees herself as a bud that hasn't opened yet, but worries that she might never open. How did Liam feel when he was her age?
4. Liam says he has no interests. What is it that Eunice finds interesting about him?
5. Do you find it true that only children exhibit excessive concern for parents' good opinion? Does this explain why Eunice makes none of her own decisions?
6. How can Liam convince Eunice's parents that he is " a better man than he looks" on paper? Does he really believe this?-
7. How did Liam take the stunning revelation he learned from Eunice's mother in the market? Had Anne Tyler provided any indication that Eunice might not be quite as transparent as she appeared to be?
8. Do you think it is possible that Liam can come to accept Eunice's explanation and forgive her deceit, her "unfortunate oversite"?
Does her husband remind you of Liam, the kind of husband he must have been?
9. What does Liam come to realize about Eunice - and himself? How important is this self-realization?
10. Were you as baffled as Damian was that Liam is no longer interested in seeing his attacker and remembering the night he was attacked?
Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available (http://www.amazon.com/);
READERS' GUIDE QUESTIOLNS - CHAPTERS 1-6 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/NoahsCompass_Tyler.html);
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life? (http://www.amazon.com/What-Should-Do-Rest-Life/dp/1583333657)
Anne Tyler's Baltimore (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (mailto:ann.bartlett@att.net )
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No, but the memory loss is what triggered the story - and what brings Eunice into Liam's life.
I'd say that Liam is not so concerned about recovering his lost memory any more, either. Does he see that the "rememberer" is not going to be of any help to him? She talks about being a biology major - but can't find a job in the field... Now she's afraid she'll lose this job because Mr. Cope isn't improving.
Liam thinks there is something familiar about her - do you see why?
Is there any way to prepare for impending memory loss? It's Mrs. Cope who has hired Eunice. Mr. Cope doesn't seem to understand what Eunice is doing - she works for the company - takes notes at meetings.
Is losing memory something you fear happening to you? Is there any way to prepare for it?
In general, I am seeing less of concern about memory loss, now that we are this far into the book -but more concern about planning for the future, for retirement. Actually, Liam didn't plan his career very well either. What did he expect to do with his degree in Philosophy? How did he decide to go into education...with no preparation, no credentials.
. Do you think young people are often unaware of their own strengths and need objective help choosing a career path? Do you think similar guidance might help with retirement planning? I do, but where would one go for such guidance?
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Actually I remembered a long ago conversation when our eldest was graduating from college. He was a Civil Engineer going on for his Environmental Science masters, but standing in line for the bathroom on graduation day, as always the women were chatting. The one behind me asked about my child and I told her..then asked her about hers.. She laughed and said.. Oh he will probably work at McDonalds, he insisted on a philosophy degree.. Sad but true.
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Steph, I'd love to know what that budding philosopher did with his degree. (Waiting lines for the ladies restroom - a whole other discussion! :D) I'm going to guess that the boy went on for his doctorate - and then went on to learn a marketable skill. Yes, it is sad. But it's true. I wonder what guidance he received at the school. What were his plans - or did he have any, except that he was studying something that he loved - like our Liam here.
One of my son's friends, the most intelligent kid I ever met, - off the charts on all the tests, perfect SATs - the works...majored in Philosophy - and Computer Science. He uses the computer degree to support himself, and the Philosophy to live by. See, I told you he was smart!
My first-born loved MATH...became an accountant, then a tax lawyer. He still loves the math. That was easy. I believe that those who tend to math and science are fortunate because there are so many fields they can go into - and support themselves.
The next three sons all loved HISTORY - two of them majored in it. The third was advised to get his degree in Business. The other two had no idea what they wanted to do with the History major -
One son was a great fan of the writer, Shelby Foote. He spoke to him after a presentation at his school - about his love for History but what to do with it. I think he was a freshman or a sophomore in college. S.Foote told him to finish his basic college requirements and then take off for a year or two, go to work and decide what it was he wanted to do and then go back and learn what he needed for the job that he wanted to do. I thought that was very sound advice - though he didn't take it.
Clearly Liam needed Guidance when he decided to pursue Philosophy. We're told he "didn't get around to his dissertation" so he went into education. There is no inidication that he had any education courses or credentials.
Considering how uncommunicative he is with his daughers - and awkward he is with his little grandson, we can only assume that he was a lousy teacher.
But then, there is Dr. Morrow's son, who is so appreciative of the attention and patience Liam showed to that boy. Go figure.
Jonah is his first grandchild. Liam seems quite puzzled about how he should feel about him. Could you tell that Anne Tyler knew a lot about kids from the dialogue between Jonah and his grandfather?
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Third week begins today - some new questions up in the heading for your consideration - or feel free to bring us your own observations and questions...
Chapter 7 begins with Liam - babysitting Jonah. This seems to be the first time this has happened, doesn't it? And Jonah is four years old - lives in Baltimore too? Interesting. This probably would have been different if he and Barbara were living together. I loved the interaction between the two.
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JoanP, just now saw your new posts.
At one time, a degree in philosophy was considered the mark of an educated man
Steph, your comment about the philosophy degree brought back memories. Among my children are two engineers and two public health professionals. After my eldest received her degree in computer science, she said, “Now I’d like to get an education,” reflecting that her program of studies left little room for things like philosophy. (But instead, went on for grad work in engineering.) Your son's friend chose a good option, JoanP.
Another child, like poor Eunice, started out in biology, but switched midway to history. “What can you do with a degree in history?” I asked. “What can I do with an undergraduate degree in biology?,” said she. And went on for work in public health and public policy. Her younger sister took a more circuitous route, first getting a graduate degree in physics, then deciding she didn't want to be a "techie" all her life.
Do you think young people are often unaware of their own strengths and need objective help choosing a career path?
Yes, JoanP, maybe. But they can’t always plan for obstacles and/or opportunities. (Think – Jeff Bezos from Amazon). And we’ve been told so often that many jobs that will be available in 15 years don’t even exist now. It’s important to offer a variety of experiences to young people to help them become aware of their strengths and what they enjoy doing.
Do you think similar guidance might help with retirement planning? I do, but where would one go for such guidance?
People need to decide their own goals. Then they might need help in reaching them, be it in financial planning, physical training, specific learning and/or course work, etc. If I were planning for Liam, I would try to find a way for him to increase his contact with others who would enjoy philosophical discussions. His librarian ex-wife could probably help there, but she needs to be tactful about it.
I loved the interaction between the two. (Jonah & Liam)
I do too. Jonah is a very "forthcoming" little boy.
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Several days ago Pedln asked if we thought the book was about memory loss. JoanG thinks not -
I came across this comment from Anne Tyler in one of her few rare interviews - it was an email interview as I recall -
Anne Tyler:
"One night after I'd gone to bed I heard the house creaking downstairs, but I was too sleepy to investigate. Then I started thinking about how if it were a burglar intent on beaning me, I wouldn't know anyway till I woke up the next morning. And so: no psychological trauma! Except I'd probably try for days to figure out what had happened. (Though perhaps not for as many days as Liam.)
Why that thought gave birth to a whole novel, I'm not sure. I do know that I have been fascinated by the subject of memory all my life. Now that I'm in my sixties, with instances of Alzheimer's disease on both sides of my family, my biggest fear is that I'll end up with no memory whatsoever. Yet I agree with Liam that there is such a thing as remembering too much, and I half admire his resolute refusal to dwell on his past."
She's admiing her character, as if he's a real person! Her characters come alive as she describes them - or perhaps she's describing the person that has come alive in her imagination...he has taken on a life of his own>
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Oh I love her thoughts on memory and Liam.. Her writing has always intrigued me..One of my person favorites of hers was the wife who ran away. Forgot the title, but I did love the book.
My younger son was also a double majory.. History and criminal justice. The CJ for work and the history for love.. He is content..
My Dad was a enormously affected by the depression and he insisted when I went to college, that mydegree was one of the the following. School teacher.... Home Ec....or maybe library science, since I was an omniverous reader.. When I wante to go to a small girls college in Virginia, he absolutly hit the ceiling.. No same sex schools either.. Oh well, he was a good man affected by his time.
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Oh, Steph - I remember that book! Tyler's in Tyler's Ladder of Years...married to a domineering husband, right out of high school - he was a doctor, wasn't he? She runs away, gets a job and becomes a new person. I loved that book too!
Don't her characters all seem to be those who are living unexamined lives, just making it, but without direction - without joy? At some point they make a move - a decision to go in another direction. Is this what's happening with Liam? He doesn't seem to be the type of man who would go for a young woman like Eunice, but for once, he makes a move - on her. Do you think that she was thinking of Liam in terms of dating before he expressed interest in her?
What I like about Tyler's characters - it is never too late to change -
She has said she is now writing her next book - "about a man whose wife returns from the dead. The setting will be Baltimore, as always." See? Never too late!
Back later -
Steph - which of those choices did you major in? I'm going to guess it was Library Science. Had your dad not insisted, what do you think you would have done?
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First, my apologies for my absence from this discussion. I have so enjoyed it and want so much to reply to your posts. Here's just one:
(Claire, I'm with you on retirement!).
In Massachusetts, the weather was more dismal than we are used to , not a big surprise because spring is always late in these parts. Except it was worse this year and affected arthritis sufferers, and I m one.
This is my second attempt: I was working on a post that was almost finished ----when it disappeared in the blink of an eye. Grrrr I'll tcome back after a rest.
A thought in the meantime:
From Liam's musings at the hospital we learn inter alia that the Stoics were his focus when he studied philosophy. and he prides himself on stl being able to quote in the original Greek.
Did he imbibe their characteristics and, if so, could they be reversed or at leastattenuated ?
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Steph, oh yes -- school teacher, nurse, home ec -- "something to fall back on" after your MRS degree. What did you choose? And did you get to the colllege of your choice in VA? I can still hear my school teacher mother talking about a classmate's mother -- "I ran into so and so at the grocery store today. She's selling cosmetics door to door and she said her girls (3 of them) were going to be trained to do something, have something to fall back on." (That family had been well-off until the husband became an alcoholic.) My mother, widowed early on, understood her well.
From Ann Tyler:
"Yet I agree with Liam that there is such a thing as remembering too much, and I half admire his resolute refusal to dwell on his past."
I can understand not wanting to dwell on things that happened in the past, especially if you don’t plan to do anything differently because of them. However, sometimes we learn from past actions and they guide us in a better direction. Who was it who said something like “those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it?”
From JoanP
What I like about Tyler's characters - it is never too late to change –
That’s a very interesting point. I’ve only read two other Tylers – about Ian in St. Maybe, who was so consumed by guilt and the wrong he did to another family member, and more recently, Digging to America, which, while about two families involved in international adoption, really focuses on the Iranian-American grandmother – who does make changes in her life.
But is Liam changing? Maybe slightly. But is it enough?
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Oh, Joan P., I didn't realize that it had been a while since most of us have posted on this site. I have been checking in and reading your posts every day. I guess that many of us have been silent partners! I was shocked to learn that Eunice was married. Her clandestine meetings with Liam seemed really out of character. I can't imagine what she saw in him. She must have been desperately bored in her own life!
To answer some of the questions you posted: I feel that Liam was probably not a very good teacher. That may be one of the reasons he was let go. I think that he has probably always been rather detached with everyone in his life. No wonder his wife left and his children do not feel close to him. I have trouble feeling sorry for him, since he has brought this "aloneness" on himself. Am I being too harsh on Liam?
Sally
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Traude, I didn’t see your post before – concentrating too much on the weather. Not cold, like in New England, but on again, off again threatening clouds and thunderstorms. I hope it warms up for you and the arthritis pains lessen. We’ve missed you.
A thought in the meantime:
From Liam's musings at the hospital we learn inter alia that the Stoics were his focus when he studied philosophy. and he prides himself on stl being able to quote in the original Greek.
Comments like Traude’s are what make these discussions so worthwhile – the bits and pieces that folks pick up on, that the rest of us miss. But when it’s all put together, voila – like stone soup.
Sally, I may be the only one, but I think we've been a bit harsh on Liam. He really is a decent person, and I think he has regrets about much of his past. And now he feels terrible because he has encroached on another man's marriage. I think he feels like he's become his father.
Hey, he's just had a devastating blow, he's been lied to by his lady-love, upside down and backwards. And what does he do, without batting an eye -- he makes spaghetti sauce because his daughter brings home tomatoes and wants to invite her boyfriend for dinner. That's a pretty good guy.
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Pedln, you have been steadfast in your defense of Liam and his ways. I'll have to give it to you, to him, he does endure - making homemade spaghetti sauce as his world is falling apart.
Traudee used the word "stoic" - and it got me to thinking that perhaps she is right. Liam had been a prize-winning student of philosophy at one time - with a focus on Stoicism. What a good memory!
stoic - 1. One who is seemingly indifferent to or unaffected by joy, grief, pleasure, or pain. SEEMINGLY
The question came up early in this discussion - Is Liam depressed? Or is he getting by - enduring - though seemingly indifferent? Let's include that in our last batch of questions.
Those of you who see him depressed - a "mess" as someone put it - who want to shake him for his indifference, we'll need to hear from you!
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I, too, apologize for not participating. It was about this part of the book when I became thoroughly annoyed with Tyler's characters and stopped being interested in analyzing them.
They began to seem wishy-washy and I can't haven't yet been able to really explain why I began to think this way. (My high school algebra teacher wouldn't allow us to say "can't"; we had to say "I haven't been able to - yet." :))
I'm still curious about your reactions to the ending. So - I'm "hanging around", enjoying reading and considering your opinions.
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Sally, it's good to know that you have been with us - everyday! I'm glad you bring up Eunice. She doesn't seem quite real to me. Looking back, I see that I made several notes on her behavior that didn't quite match the character Anne Tyler was presenting to us. The way she "cagily" avoided Louise's questions - she actually lied (fibbed) when she told her she was Liam's neighbor - Liam tells us that Rowland Park was actually quite a distance from his place. She isn't as naive not the open book she pretends to be.
Claire said somewhere that this book is more like a case study than a novel. Do you agree with that? I think I agree, except the source is Liam - isn't the whole story told from his point of view? Still, you've got something there, Claire.
(Ella, you're right - there are novels with more substance, such as the Book Thief. Don't judge Anne Tyler's slow-moving, introspective stories as typical of all, of most Fiction. I guess what I'm trying to say to you, oh lover of Non-Fiction - there are as many kinds of Fiction as NonFiction. Don't give up on all Fiction, okay?)
Some of you are eager to consider the book as a whole, not posting out of fear you will give away the ending. I'm going to finish reading the book tonight - (am I the only one who hasn't finished?) - promise to get back in a day or two. We'll consider the whole book - hopefully that will bring back our silent partners. Callie, I understand what you are saying about wishy-washy characters. I'm sure Liam's ex-wife and daughters agree with you! ;)
In the meantime, please post your comments on Chapters 7, 8 and 9. As Pedln says, your "gems" are what floats our boat!
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Well, is this timely or not – from within today’s online New York Times
What Is a Philosopher? (http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/16/what-is-a-philosopher/?hp)
Socrates tells the story of Thales, who was by some accounts the first philosopher. He was looking so intently at the stars that he fell into a well. Some witty Thracian servant girl is said to have made a joke at Thales’ expense — that in his eagerness to know what went on in the sky he was unaware of the things in front of him and at his feet. Socrates adds, in Seth Benardete’s translation, “The same jest suffices for all those who engage in philosophy.”
What is a philosopher, then? The answer is clear: a laughing stock, an absent-minded buffoon, the butt of countless jokes from Aristophanes’ “The Clouds” to Mel Brooks’s “History of the World, part one.”
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Back as promised.
Some reviewers have said, a bit dismissively, that Tyler's characters are "quirky". Well, perhaps they are. Conformists they are certainly not. Also, some, including Liam, clearly march to a different drummer. And yet there ARE 'odd' people like that, so why would it be wrong to write about them, carefully, objectively, uncritically? TWe can decide for ourselves whom we like and dislike. I will admitthat I find the alleged quirkiness rather endearing.
I like Tyler's stories. She usually begins with a simple idea, a notion, an ordinary occurrence, then we meet a protagonist,and from there the story unfolds. In Noah's Compass we meet Liam, a 60-year old teacher who's lost his job, must downsize, moves into cheaper quarters and goes to bed. Next he wakes up in the hospital with no recollection of what happened to him. We meet members of Liam's family and, from his solitary musings, learn more about his past. It is a slow process, but life is like that, isn't it? One day at a time. In the proces we are always waiting, waiting for something, more or less urgently ...
The characterizations are brilliant and I found myself nodding and smiling a lot, e.g. about Damian, "a limp, wilted seventeen-year old" who looked like an S carrying Liam's Windsor chair on his head. Liam's believes that Damian is perhaps " ...vacant" but actually a good guy, who could NOT have been the perpetrator of the assault on Liam, as his eldest daughter, Xanthe, claims.
Tyler's has a knack for portraying people- and the language they use- realistically and unhurriedly (Kitty and the unnecessary"likes") Reading anything by Tyler requires patience, especially when the characters follow a path we readers think is completely nonsensic and makes us cringe. Normally, people step up over time in their jobs or professions, but many do not, and liam is one of them. A bright boy with a promising future, his career took a downward spiral. We are not told why. Could we hazard a guess, time permitting? But who are we to reproach him for his meekness and poor choices? What is it to us as long as he is comfortable? He well knows that in his last job in the private school he used only 10% of his brain. (Also, he DOES have a plan, he mentions it in passing early on. - Moreover, Dr. Morrow , whose son Liam tutored, thinks highly of him.)
I do not believe that Liam intends to apply for a job at Cope Development. IMHO he would not fit. Improbably he 'latches on' to Eunice, but I think it's only because he hopes she might him retrieve his short-term lost memory. I think Eunice is an interesting character, psychologically. Can't you just see her standing there in her outlandish skirts and tops, her midriff showing? The two of them would be totally incongruous in y humble opinion.
We have met Xanthe and Kitty; in Chapter 7 we meet Liam's second daughter, Louise, and Noah, Liam's only grandson. Their introduction brings a new element into the story and conveys an idea of what the book's title means.
I apologize for m absence and will be back tomorrow. Good night.
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I have been lurking and reading the comments. I don't understand Liam. He was in a job he didn't like and apparently made no effort to change. But even retired he seems to have no interests. He enjoys the solitary life but seems to have no intellectual curiosity -- no books, no TV, no interest in going out to cultural events, no ----------- What made Liam a dull boy?
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To answer Pedlin and Mary.. I went to the U. of Delaware as instructed and took Home Ec.. Foods and nutrition .. which was incredibly boring. I have always been a really good cook.. If the Culinary Institute was something I had heard of way back then, that is where I would have wanted to go.. Foods, etc is more a dietician type of course.. And all I really wanted, was to cook.. I loved libraries my whole life, but did not really think I could be a librarian when young.. My examples were school librarians. It wasnt until I started genealogy and started going to research libraries, that I realized I would have loved that world.. Still do for that matter.
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Kidsal, we can't really understand Liam because his modus vivendi is so different from what "normal" people do. What could he expect to DO with a degree in philosophy, other than teach at the university level?
He does have books, though, and we saw him lovingly arrange them on the built-in shelves in the den that first day (before he took out the bed linen), He does not elaborate on what they are, but it is a safe bet that philosophical works are among them.
We might ask, what practical value does philosophy have in daily life? We don't see Liam applying his knowledge in any way - in fact, he is awkward at social gatherings, avoids picnics and has only acquaintances, no real friends. As Claire said, we'd find him boring.
Back later, it's house cleaning day.
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I've missed out on this discussion; my life was OBE at the time it started and I missed the pick-up by date at the library for my reserved book, so I let it go. Can someone give me a brief summary? I don't have time now to read all the past posts.
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Jackie, I’m so sorry you’ve missed most of the discussion because you always have such interesting comments to put forth. You are forthcoming. (That’s an inside joke here because Liam, the protagonist, was told by his ex-wife, that he was NOT forthcoming.)
Liam, the down-sized former teacher (with a degree in philosophy), in an effort to regain memory of what happened when his new, smaller apartment was broken into, has inadvertently become involved with Eunice, a woman 20 years younger, who is best described as “hapless.”
I am one of the few here who like/tolerate/accept Liam. Most folks do not. To get a picture of what’s gone on so far without reading ALL the posts – I would suggest you read those of JoanP. She has summarized well and frequently has pointed out comments by others. One of the questions that has come up is whether one needs to plan for retirement or not.
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pedln: Thanks for the update advice. I'd read Joan P's weather forecast if she posts it. You, pedln, are another whose posts I eagerly look for. I'll check out the past, and the library has the book for me again so I can start reading.
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It isn't that I don't like Liam. I think he would be very interesting to visit with IF the other person could get on his wave length. He is interested in his new experiences.
How sad that none of the other characters ever seem to be willing to wait for him to form his thoughts or listen when he tries to comment.
However, I think he would be terribly hard to live with since most of his opinions are never spoken.
Have you noticed how often Liam "assumes" or "hopes" that someone will react in a certain way? I don't think it's ever happened.
Unfortunately, I had to return my copy to the library so I'm unable to check for details.
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Hi, everyone,
We have been on the road, visiting family, and today unpacking ... also my computer would not connect to the Internet for most of the day. Now that I've caught up on the posts ...
Eunice being married was not, IMHO, a good way to advance the plot. As soon as I got to that, I starting picking apart the book, and decided I liked many of the earlier novels by Tyler much better.
Reading over the questions in the header, I hardly can find any on which to comment. Was this book worth a month of discussion? I had hoped it would be, but now that I've finished it, it's obvious I'm lukewarm. I don't like the novel's portrait of Liam, I don't like the way he's so cool toward his grandson, and the hope of a future with Eunice has fallen apart. How about everyone else? Was that expected?
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All points are well taken. Thank you for your insights.
Of course we are entitled to voice our opinions about the characters and anything else in a book we live with for a month. Yet, despite the protagonists' weaknesses and idiosyncracies, this novel is not only about Liam, as I read it, about family, in this sadly a family manquée = one that didn't make it, which is ostensibly Liam's fault. And he knows it. He blames himself for the death of his first wife, Xanthe's mother, and for failing to recognize the seriousness of her depression - until it was too late. But he got lucky when he met Barbara, who became his second wife, a good mother to little Xanthe and had two daughters with Liam, Louise and Kitty.
Liam was never really a part of the family, he took refuge in his work, hisjob, such as it was, "and Barara finally gave up on hium and filed for divorce," as we learn from his musings in the hospital. He considers that his second failure. Obviously he's considering only his failure as a husband. But what abut his failure as a father ? We are not told how often and where family members met when he lived in his first larger apartment, but we're led to believe that contact was infrequent and not alweays in person. No wonder he is awkward with his first grandchild ! I could imagine that he surrounded himself with a protective cloak - to "insulate" himself from new amatory failures, or others from him. But if so, couldn't he "melt" in the right circumstances?
With permission, I'd like to loosely label Noah's Compass as a sort of miniBildungsroman[ (=a composite noun, bildung = education, maturing, roman [novel) : a novel which focuses on the psychological, moral and intellectal development of a (usually young) character.
True, Liam is not young, but who can say he might not learn to adapt ? And what might take ?
In Noah's Compass, Tyler is very much "with it" IMHO, she touches on a series of issues that concern young and old right here, right now :
the volence with which we live daily,
the potential to become a victim of an assault,
the victim's loss of memory as a result,
the loss of self-confidence,
the attempt to bring back the memory by any means possible,
new struggles and conflicts modern life has added (unwanted pregnancy),
independence in later years,
and unasked dreaded questions, like
Is retirement the end of our productive life?
And how to plan for it.
The story began with Liam's downsizing, to which he could have objected, and his friend Bundy said he should - but that wasn't Liam's style.
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Mippy, I had a similar reaction to this book - because it is the first Tyler book that I felt she was missing her mark. I keep waiting for Liam to live up to his potential. I guess I'm looking for the point Tyler is trying to make in the end. To me, it will depend on whether or not Liam changes - with or without Eunice. Tyler is keeping us in suspense - will he be able to forgive Eunice - and choose happiness over principle - or not?
Weren't you at all interested in Liam's lack of interest in the burglar who has been apprehended? That was all important to him, not so long ago. Does this indicate that he has changed?
I didn't hold it against him that he wasn't closer to his grandson. Clearly he had not seen much of him. I think that comes from the distance between Liam and his daughter - Traudee refers to Liam's failure as a father. I'm hoping Tyler explains this distance before ending the book - or perhaps she's already done that. It seems that he is making an effort to listen to Jonah, now that he is spending time alond with him -
Callie, the story seems to be written from Liam's point of view, don't you think? Since he's the narrator, we are able to learn his unspoken thoughts and opinions. He seems to shrug off explaining himself - as if the good opinion of others don't interest him. What I didn't like about him was his self-righteousness - the way he silent criticized grammar... He doesn't like it when people say "Take care." I use it all the time without thinking - signing letters, etc. Are people cringing when I do? "Curmudgeon" is the word I would use to describe him. Which leads to the question - why is Eunice interested in this curmudgeonly fellow? When she describes her husband, she sounds like Barbara must have sounded when she was married to Liam.
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Traudee, let's do that - let's consider Liam's psychological, moral and intellectal development when we look at the book as a whole. (I still haven't read chapters 11 &12.) I think that would be helpful to judge the book - whether or not Liam has grown and changed.
Jackie, in addition to Pedln's update-in-a-nutshell, let's add the question that seems to divide us - is Liam depressed or simply an unlikeable fellow who is doing his best to "endure." If you think he's depressed, how can you dislike him and feel animosity towards him? You've got to pity him, don't you? He needs help. Can Eunice provide what he needs? BUT, if you think he's just a self-centered introvert - does he deserve our disdain - and dislike. Is it safe to say that if you dislike Liam, you dislike the book?
Traudee and Claire would find him "boring" - if the main character of a novel is a boring person - does that make the book "boring"? Why would an author take the chance?
"We don't see Liam applying his knowledge in any way." I love this observation, Traudee. Think about it - his field is Philosophy!!! (Kidsal, Liam did keep some books - we're told early on that he's downsized - given away all of his fiction and biography, but kept his Philosophers.
To me this is the supreme irony - consider the meaning of the term - phil - love, of, sophy, wisdom. One definition of philosophy - a person who regulates his or her life, actions, judgments, utterances, etc., by the light of philosophy or reason. Kidsal asks an important question - "What made Liam a dull boy?" He's studied the wisdom of the ages and yet he's
as the NY Times article describes a philosopher - " a laughing stock, an absent-minded buffoon" -
Another question occurs - what brought Liam to the study of Philosophy? It is fascinating to read, but why would someone choose to make it their life's work? Maybe he didn't.
Steph - what did you do with your degree in Home Ec? What were you planning to do with it? I would have put money on your choosing Library Science...
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Home Ec? Some of my classmates took a degree in Home Ec. Of course growing up in Ames, Iowa 32 miles north of Des Moines a few of them were hired by Good Housekeeping, Redbook, etc. to toil in their kitchens or write articles about housekeeping. Many of these women's magazines were/are headquartered in Des Moines.
Wonder what is the relationship between Liam and Bundy? He doesn't seem to derive much out of their friendship.
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As a product of the 50's education, I got married and for the first few years since my husband was a disc jockey and went from station to station, I got jobs that I could find.. Since I love math and was good at it. I ended up with bookkeeping jobs mostly. Then I had two kids.. Then I taught baking privately and also baked for restaurants ( desserts and breads) In 1979, I started researching genealogy after my mother died. Fell in love with research and did that for writers in Boston.. Then when we moved here, I owned and ran two stores..ONe a used book store and wrote newsletters for a financial analyst.. etc.. Never technically used the degree.. At least not the way they had in mind.. Nutritionist.. My roommate was just as bad.. She always wanted to take art and after graduation became a stewardess and then married. She taught art at a junior college and then started selling real estate. She owns a large real estate firm. We have always laughed at the non use of the education.
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Aha! I now know why I did not like this book. I didn't like Liam and he was the main character. Overall, I was really disappointed in Noah's Compass. I like Tyler's other books so much better. Liam is not only removed from life; he also removed himself from this reader. Several of you have described Liam as a curmudgeon. I don't think he had enough personality to be a curmudgeon! I got really aggravated/exasperated with him. I did not feel sorry for him, but I did feel pity (does that make sense?).
Straude, your postings always include words that I had forgotten about, or ones that send me to the dictionary. Thank you for furthering my education. That brings me to the point that I have enjoyed these discussions of Noah's Compass much more than reading the book.
Sally
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Sally ~ I agree that these book discussions always are great! In fact, the discussion here is better than this book. I wonder why Tyler has written such a depressing book. Does it reflect something that has occurred in her life?
I was also mildly disappointed that the character of the area, Baltimore, did not come through as strongly as in, for example, the Accidental Tourist. The story could have been in Cleveland or in Ft. Lauderdale. I didn't get any "Bal - mur" feeling here. Most medium sized cities in the US have strip malls and depressing apartment complexes. Where is the flavor?
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Haven't started my review of posts yet but have a few thoughts to share. Does Liam exhibit Emile Durkheim's anomie, that failure of the individual to mesh with his society? In a narrow sense, Liam sounds like he is asocial, that is,
. . . characterised by an inability to 'empathise', to feel intimacy with, or to form close relationships with others (Davidson & Neale 1994).
Think TVs House. Is Tyler portraying an individual, or is she casting Liam as an Everyman, the elderly in today's America? Makes me wonder if Tyler couldn't adequately convey her character sympathetically to the reader. If so, is her attempt a failure of the writer or the reader? From a plot summary on the site Good Reads From the incomparable Anne Tyler, a wise, gently humorous, and deeply compassionate novel about a schoolteacher, who has been forced to retire at sixty-one, coming to terms with the final phase of his life.
This doesn't at all sound like the book you are discussing here. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6261277-noah-s-compass
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Mippy, I agree with you about the lack of Baltimore flavor (not that I really know, having had limited contact)-- other than mentioning two main thoroughfares that run clear through the city, and referring to the area around Johns Hopkins.
With permission, I'd like to loosely label Noah's Compass as a sort of miniBildungsroman[ (=a composite noun, bildung = education, maturing, roman [novel) : a novel which focuses on the psychological, moral and intellectal development of a (usually young) character.
True, Liam is not young, but who can say he might not learn to adapt ? And what might take ?
What an interesting point, Traude. Would a Bildungsroman be something similar to a what we frequently call a coming-of-age novel?
Traude mentions Liam’s first wife, Millie, and that he blames himself for her death. Tyler put Millie in the book from the very beginning, but we get a sense of Liam not wanting to think of her, and certainly not wanting to talk about her with Eunice. I think he’s consumed with guilt about her and with the part he played or didn’t play in her death.
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Is Tyler portraying an individual, or is she casting Liam as an Everyman, the elderly in today's America?
Whoa, Jackie. Very interesting, Liam as Everyman. I just now saw your post, and it ties in very nicely with thoughts below.
And also, as we see in Traude’s list of issues, this book is about much more than Liam. Retirement, and also family relations are certainly big issues here. Along with Noah, I’ve also been reading, perhaps sporadically, Bruce Frankel’s What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life, which has a wonderful. chapter about our Robby and how he overcame so many obstacles before reaching his goals. The stories about these people are inspiring, and their achieving their goals certainly took planning. Margie Stoll, in her 60’s, trained painfully and vigorously to achieve her personal best as a competitive senior runner. She’ll be 70 in 2012 and plans to run in the Boston Marathon that year to take advantage of being one of the youngest in her age group – 70-75. (She inspired me to add an additional 300 yards to the half-mile I’ve been swimming, but unfortunately not any faster.) Loretta Thayer is the widow of a farmer, had cooked off and on in cafes and diners, and was hugely admired and praised for her pies. At age 70, motivated by the 9/11 tragedy, she decided to purchase and reopen an abandoned diner so the folks in her farming community would have a place to gather for fellowship and good food. It has now become a focal point for the people in her area in upstate NY. (I haven’t made any pies yet. Thought about it. But have made two batches of popovers since reading that chapter, for the first time in 30 some years (fewer calories than in pie).)
Liam has been criticized for his lack of initiative, not that he has to be the fasted kid on the block, or the best cook Do you know any Liams? Are they, or is he, content? I’m not exactly sure what my point is here, but as we look at retirement, is being enough, or must we be doing?
What’s your philosophy?
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Mippy, I'll admit the references to Bal'mur were not quite as vivid, as recognizable as in previous Tyler novels...I'm thinking of Homesick Restaurant, Accidental Tourist and the like. Her references are more subtle in this novel - perhaps because she has not set the story in the city of Baltimore, but further out in Baltimore County. Liam has moved out of the city near the Beltway to his daughters' dismay. You're right, his neighborhood could be anywhere. (Sadly, as the inner city grows, the surrounding areas are the run down strip malls with new construction as you come up up N. Charles St. to the Inner Harbor and the Ball Field.
I think Tyler captured the flavor of old Baltimore, when she described Bunker St. and its decaying buildings. It was mighty interesting to me, though never explained, why Cope Development is located here on Bunker St...(I'm guessing it's because billionaire Israel Cope's father's bakery had been located here once.)
The waitress in the luncheonette who pads out in her mules and housecoat to serve Liam and Eunice coffee and Tastycakes - now that's something you don't see everywhere -
I really believe she was describing Bal'mur as she sees it today. Sad, but true.
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Sally writes of Liam -
"I did not feel sorry for him, but I did feel pity."
I've been thinking about this. I can understand that you don't feel sorry for him because he makes these choices himself about how he wants to live his life - but why do you pity him? Because he could be so much happier if he made different choices?
Jackie suggests he might be suffering from anomie, - a failure of the individual to mesh with his society? Is this a reason to pity him? Because he is so alone...even ithis is by choice?
Kidsal brings up his relationship with Bundy. Were you surprised to see him so at ease with Bundy - and Eunice? He can't be completely asocial, can he? Kidal, I think Bundy's importance to Liam is the fact that he sees and accepts Liam as he is. And Bundy was impressed with Eunice - Liam was glowing at Bundy's interest in her - as if her brilliance reflected back on Liam. He does care what others think of him.
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"Is Tyler portraying an individual, or is she casting Liam as an Everyman, the elderly in today's America?"
Now that's a good question, Jackie. If I'm remembering them correctly, Tyler's characters are individuals - eccentric individuals. However, they - (this includes Liam) - usually have traits that the reader can relate to - and see themselves. A really good question. What do you others think?
Pedln asks - "do you know Liams? And are they content?" It seems he just wanted to be left alone - to be, not to do. I dunno - here's another question, Pedln - same theme - do YOU see yourself in Liam?
Has Eunice changed him? Would his retirement be very different if he were to marry this younger woman? Do you think that's what frightened him - more than anything?
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Noah's Compass- Ok I've thought a lot about it. Nope I did not like this book.
I think it was Sally that said "Noah didn't need a compass because he wasn't going anywhere."
Sadly, I agree 100%. His apathy and sluggish personality bored me to death. I became angry with him. He reminds me of someone I knew that retired 3 years ago. When asked "what he was going to do during retirement" he always responded, "Nothing, and it will take me all day to do it."
He died this past week- IMO he died from immobilization, lack on interest in anyone or anything and allowed his own lethargy to paralyze him and his family members. So, NO, I dislike Noah.
Joan asked-Traudee and Claire would find him "boring" - if the main character of a novel is a boring person - does that make the book "boring"? Why would an author take the chance?
Well it beats me why AT took the chance because aside from the various nuances of retirement, family obligations, etc. this book had no back bone nor depth. Don't beat me up, it is just how I feel. The one redeeming point about Noah's personality is that he didn't expect much of others.'
He was too detacted from his family and from himself to give a danm.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Noah's Compass ~ May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited - ANYTIME!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/noahscompass/noahcover.jpg) | Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first choice for our May Book Club Online discussion. We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience. Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark. "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."
Liam Pennywell is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium, after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged. For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control.
And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous." Really.
We all know a Liam, the novel suggests. In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat. Please plan to join us as we float along together.
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Discussion Schedule
May 1-7 ~ Chapters 1,2,3
May 8-14 ~ Chapters 4,5,6
May 15 -19 ~ Chapters 7,8,9
May20 -24 ~ Chapters 10,11,12,13
May 24-30 ~ Overview, Rate the Book
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Overview, Rate the Book:
1. "I am not especially unhappy, but see no particular reason to go on living." Is Anne Tyler descibing Everyman here or just one depressed individual who found his life "heartbreaking" and his retirement years lonely?
2. Do you think Anne Tyler conveys a message to the reader with this novel?
3. Ignoring your opinion of the book as a whole, was there any part, any scene, or any character who made a particular impression or tickled your fancy?
4. All things considered, how many stars would you give this book, five being the highest? *****
Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available (http://www.amazon.com/);
READERS' GUIDE QUESTIONS - CHAPTERS 1-9 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/NoahsCompass_Tyler.html);
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life? (http://www.amazon.com/What-Should-Do-Rest-Life/dp/1583333657)
Anne Tyler's Baltimore (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (mailto:ann.bartlett@att.net )
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GINGEE! I miss you and your posts. I hope that you are doing well.
Bless your heart JoanP-She's admiing her character, as if he's a real person! Her characters come alive as she describes them - or perhaps she's describing the person that has come alive in her imagination...he has taken on a life of his own
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I don't see the life that he took on as his own but I do agree that to AT he's alive. Sad for Ms Tyler.
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Ok i am going to say again that I liked the book...I do not dislike Liam...I cannot agree with all of you....maybe I am the only one here who does like this book and who does not dislike Liam...I am a History, English, French major... several of you have made statements that there is nothing you can do with a History degree...Ok but I have an education...I went to college to get an education...I did not go to college for job training....I took the English because I loved literature and History and Literature are closely related...I went back to school and took French because I had taken French in high school and rthe school where I taught needed a French teacher...I got a grant to get the French degree...Now I want to tell you that getting the French degree was the best thing I ever did...It opened up the whole world for me... It helped to take me to all of those places I had studied about in my History classes...France became my second home...It lead me to pursue volunteer work in my retirement years at a museum of art thus extending my studies to art..Maybe I did not get any worthwhile job training in my life but I got an education. To me an education is a wonderful thing....Joan Grimes....I had to come back and edit my post because I did compromise to satify my Dad...He insisted that I must be trained for a job...so I did get my teaching crddentials for teaching History, English, and French...To me those courses were the biggest waste of time...one does not learn to teach in an education course but learns by actually teaching...Joan Grimes
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Bravo, JoanG. Well said. Your determination to choose something you love, and to do it, has served you well.
The list below is a bit off topic, but it does follow the career paths and planning of young college students and graduates. My 17 year-old-granddaughter will spend this summer in Panama working with Panamanian youth on community projects. She forwarded me the brochure of the activities and participants, and below is a list of the college majors of the staff project directors and supervisors. Did some of these even exist 10 or 15 years ago?
Sociology and Pre-Med.
International Relations and a minor in Skiing.
Spanish degree.
Global Health
International Studies with a concentration in Political Science and Latin America
Culture and Politics with a focus in Immigration Studies
Environmental Studies major on the Pre-Med track
BA in Spanish Literature and Creative Writing,
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Nowhere on that list is Philosophy - I checkd twice. :D
JoanG - I knew girls like you. Some of them always knew what they wanted to do - one a doctor, one a vet, from the time they were young. Back in the day, most girls didn't aspire to these professions.
Then there were those, like you, who chose to follow their love for a certain subject, with no thought of what they would do with it. I was one of those. Then came the awakening that I was not really prepared for the jobs that I wanted...and had to go back to school as soon as I graduated.
Maybe that's the reason you empathized with Liam - he followed his love for Philosophy.
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I have finished this book. I liked Liam. However, IMO, the book was a waste of my time. As far as I am concerned, it never went anywhere. I did admire Liam for marching to his own drummer. As one who enjoys solitude, and quiet, I related to him, in many ways. I also liked his daughter, Kitty. But, I want a little more action, or meaning in a book.
Sheila
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Hi Alf I am reading all the post. All is well with me. just enjoying what all have to say about this book.
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From CallieinOK Reply #134: (Couldn't get "Quote" to work)
I, too, apologize for not participating. It was about this part of the book when I became thoroughly annoyed with Tyler's characters and stopped being interested in analyzing them.
They began to seem wishy-washy and I can't haven't yet been able to really explain why I began to think this way. (My high school algebra teacher wouldn't allow us to say "can't"; we had to say "I haven't been able to - yet." Smiley)
I'm still curious about your reactions to the ending. So - I'm "hanging around", enjoying reading and considering your opinions.
I'm reading Noah's Compass on an iPod Shuffle which wants to skip to earlier chapters. It makes me very frustrated. I have fibromyalgia so my mental faculties (remembering, like Liam) are very faulty. In order to remember a book, the story needs to move quickly and be exciting, which this book is not.
I'm half way through and think I will delete the audiobook and move onto something else. I may check in a few times to read your comments.
Nancy
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Good morning,Mates!
Before we started this discussion, we invited the author to participate in this discussion - knowing her aversion to Interviews, book tours and signings. Unfortunately, online discussions are no exception. After reading some of your candid observations, I think this is one time that her decline was a blessing - although there are many questions...
Nancy - do I understand you to say that you've only read half the book? Have you deleted it? It is in the last three chapters that we begin to understand some of the reasons that led up to Liam's lack of interest in living. Some of us are still not sure what that is. Admittedly, the action is slow-moving. I can understand your frustration. Another problem - we spent the first two weeks of the discussion on the first half of the book - analyzing and relating our own experience. Perhaps that slowed us down too much...although those first two weeks revealed much about the way we regard our retirement. Yes, please do stay with us. We value your opinion and input. (You too, Gingee!)
Sheila makes the same comment - "more action, more meaning." I think it's difficult to have a lot of action when considering the workings of someone's mind -but admittedly, action is not one of the hallmarks of Tyler's novels. But meaning. In the end, it's the meaning that we have to decide on. How well did Tyler get her point across - and what was her intent.
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JoanG - I just noticed your "edit" - I had to come back and edit my post because I did compromise to satisfy my Dad. This isn't the first time that we've seem references to our dads and their influence on our future choices. It makes sense - at this time, Dad was the family breadwinner, Dad. Dad is concerned about how his daughter will support herself. Is this how it was with you? Did anyone have an influential mother in career decisions?
It is quite interesting to read of the different responses to Liam Pennywell. I'm still surprised about the reaction of those who believe he is - and has been for some time - a very depressed man and yet you still show no compassion for the man. Those who don't think he's depressed, just a solitary soul - liked him just fine. (JoanG - you are not alone in seeing him this way.) Which man is Anne Tyler attempting to portray? I think we need to answer that before we are finished here.
Anne Tyler's rather introspective novels are not to everyone's liking, but as we know, she has a huge following. Sheila, have you read other books by this author? Would you care to compare?
Let's examine the final chapters for a few days before we decide how to rate this book. We do learn more about Liam's early days in these last chapters that might answer the question put here - "What made Liam such a dull boy?"
The answer seems to go back to events of his childhood and his parents' role - as it often does... What was the extent of his father's influence? Is there any indication of what led him to the study of Philosophy?
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Fate has it in for me regarding this book; my pick-up-by date expired before I could get in to pick it up. So these comments are responding to your posts rather than to Tyler's work.
JoanP: those who believe he is - and has been for some time - a very depressed man and yet you still show no compassion for the man
Was Tyler trying to enlist compassion for Liam? And why would depression negate our compassion? These comments lead me to believe that Tyler missed the mark. I remember how some of us (not me) detested Olive Kitteridge and some didn't invest that much emotion into her character. Does Liam incite either indifference or emotional rejection? An emotional bonding is necessary for me to fully enter into the fictional world being created in each book.
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hello there
its Deb here...weather cool in Ontario, but expecting a bit of a warming trend in the next day or two...spring still in the air...many people out on the trail walking (my dog, Billie & I do our 5 mile hike daily and its so nice with the cooler weather)
.............
I feel an empathy with Liam, ...he seems to voice his wants, but not with a lot of conviction , and they seem to be overridden in his interactions with others ...i.e. Eunice who is insisting she will help him with his resume--but not listening to the fact he doesn't want a job with her employer's company....his sister, bustling in & doing her own thing without any regard to how Liam feels about her help when he comes home from hospital....his niece, moving herself into his apartment without inquiring whether she is welcome
Liam seems to lack the energy suggesting to me he feels unequal to people's energy & therefore has no boundaries with regard to his own needs, moving him further downward...he really didn't fend for himself when let go from his teacher's job, as someone pointed out he really had more rights to the position than the other person who was kept on staff....seems to me he is very depressed
having said the above, I am still on the chapters 4-6... but just wanted to get my vote in for feeling an empathy for Liam & his situation...wishing there was someone he seemed to 'click' with to be able to say his true thoughts & feelings....
have got behind in my reading ..will move ahead & finish the book tomorrow or Friday...so can contribute something more current to the messages
enjoying all the comments though...they really give the book dimension
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So many good posts to comment on - it's hard to know where to begin!
I'll start with a big wave to Ginger. It's so good to see you, Gingee, to know you are with us, and keeping yourself well.
JoanG, brava, bravissima! Loved your post and admire your stamina. Unquestionably, a good, solid education is invaluable. I always felt the same way. The more exposure we have to the riches of the mind, the better off we are.
Pedln, "a coming-of-age story", exactly. The suggested analogy is obviously not perfect since Liam IS of age! :)
JoanP, I do not think Liam was or is depressed because he doesn't show the typical symptoms. He did not run out of energy, continued to function, he did not sleep away his days.
At some point he simply pulled back, became detached, impassive, indifferent -all characteristics of a stoic temperament. We don't know enough about the early part of his life while he was married to Millie ("a waifish, fragile woman with a veil of transparent hair"). Could his deliberate"withdrawal" or separation, his lack of professional ambition, his disinterest in social contacts have started with Millie's death for which he felt responsible ?
None of Tyler's book have much of a plot, but I believe there is momentum in Noah's Compass, and it begins with the assault by the intruder. The changes are very subtle and, as usual, Tyler takes her time.
Liam is discharged from the hospital with the provision that he be supervised for 48 hours, a task which is shared by Barbara, a thoroughly likeable character IMHO, and his daughters.
He's no longer leading a solitary existence; Kitty is spendig the summer with him, and the other daughters plus Barbara drop in on him - several of them unexpectedly at the time, when Xanthe dily asks whether your father is having a salon. "Liam is laughing a lot more thee days", we read. Isn't that progress?
Will there will be major changes in Liam's life ?After all, how likely is it that at his age he decides to utilize his potential? But this is just a story. We don't have to take it personally. We don't have to get angry with him. He's clearly not a go-getter. e
As Sheila said, this is light fare. I too like more "substantive" books, even so I'm an unabashed fan of Anne Tyler. I like her style, how well she observes and describes her characters, her quiet wit.
Kidsal, Bundy seems to have been the only colleague Liam talked with while at St. Dygfrig. No social contacts with other teachers are mentioned. Liam knew that he'd eventually ask Bundy over and thank him again for his help with the move. We now know that Bundy is black. So "skeletal blue-black giraffe" was a hint? Well, I missed it.
There's more to say about philosophy and the NYT article (thanks for the link, Pedln, and about our own philosophy. More soon.
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Jackie, tough luck with the pick-up date. I do hope you get hold of it sometime. Emotional bonding – I really haven’t thought about that, but do know that I have to care about what's happening to the characters in order to like the book. As for Liam, I want him to at least be content.
From Traude:
Could his deliberate"withdrawal" or separation, his lack of professional ambition, his disinterest in social contacts have started with Millie's death for which he felt responsible ?
Absolutely, Traude. I think Millie’s death has weighed heavily on him all along, ever since his neighbor said, “Mr. Pennywell, that baby has been crying all day since eight o’clock this morning.” And Liam froze – because he knew he could have changed the outcome. And he’s stayed partly frozen.
But his mother managed to lay a guilt trip on him before he ever met Millie. Heaven help the poor boy if he wanted to see his father, which he had to do secretly. And then that thoughtless uncaring young man ("their" words) had the audacity to leave his mother alone when he went to college in the Mid – f - west. (Oops, Russo just snuck in.)
I'm an unabashed fan of Anne Tyler. I like her style, how well she observes and describes her characters, her quiet wit.
Ditto here, Traude. I’ve enjoyed this book, also her Digging to America. Her characters seem real to me.
I’m driving 500+ miles tomorrow for a long weekend getaway, so am trying to wrap up stuff here. Hopefully back later with a few more thoughts before shutting down. Otherwise I’ll look forward to all your posts while unwinding in the motel. Laptop is going too.
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JoanP you know how to get me to post :)
My mother/my friend had a lot to do pertaining to what went on in my life as she had a friend got me the job I stayed at thirty years, in those thirty years she had me go back to the place I worked at after a nine year layoff as she bought me the car of my choice (brand new) to go back saying pay me back every penny but no interest so I went back and paid her every penny then they wanted me to be a supervisior so when I told mom no way would I go on supervision she said you will always wonder if you could have done it well I showed her I could so stayed on till just before retireing went back in the union to retire. She told me she wish she had offered me college as they had the money she just didn't encourage me in that.
Liam needed some one to lead/gently push him as it would have helped.
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Gingee, that is a commendable career record! Opportunities offered, accepted, repaid, and a job faithfully held for three decades!! These days a life-time job like that is almost unheard of, and so are pensions. :)
Pedln, re your # 173, how true, and you put it so well. Theirs must have been a home without much love for Liam and sister Julia. The unhappiness and resentment of their mother "lapped over" on Liam and his sister. If the two had been closer, it might have lightened the burden both of them bore, but there was no warmth in that relationship either.
He was fortunate that no-nonsense, capable Barbara stepped in and became his and the family's anchor. There's little doubt that she cared for him, waited for him to open up and, when that did not happen, divorced him. It was Barbara who "cheery, purposely" stepped in his hospital room to take him home, carrying a grocery bag with his street clothes inside. He was glad to see her. "She was a medium sort of woman, medium in every way. Medium length, curly brown hair, finely threaded with gray and that lipstick-only makeup style that's meant not to draw attention to itself. " A wonderful charaacterization, I think.
The NYT article by Simon Critchley, What is a Philosopher?" was written tongue-in-cheek, I believe, ostensibly as a send-up of philosophy and philosophers. Mr. Critchley implies - jokingly one assumes - that perhaps there should be a health warning that says PHILOSOPHY KILLS ::)
Lastly, your question of our personal philosophy is intriguing and I'm thinking about my answer.
My goodness, 500 + miles... ! Do take care and have a wonderful week. We'll miss you!
Deb, I saw your message after I sent off my own post. Sorry I didn't have time to respond sooner. Thank you for being with us.
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Hi straudetwo and Alf.
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It is really interesting to come in each morning and read through your posted thoughts as a whole. What strikes me is this. We are all reading the same story - told from the Point of View of Liam Pennywell - his own story of how things appear to him. And yet, we come away with a completely different understanding of the man. Has Anne Tyler confused us, influenced us - by providing too much - or too little information? Has she purposely done this?
Jackie asks if we think the author has missed the mark. She asks if Liam incites either indifference or emotional rejection? We seem to be divided on this issue.
"An emotional bonding is necessary for me to fully enter into the fictional world being created in each book." jackie
"But this is just a story. We don't have to take it personally." Traudee
Can we enjoy a story if we can't bond with the main character? Do you recognize any of the characters, enough to bond with them? Or to care what happens to them? (What did you think of Tyler's portrayal of Eunice? That was the one that really got to me.)
Andy is clearly angry with Liam- because he lacks the "mojo"? Sheila, you seem to feel the same way - - the story, Liam, doesn't seem to be going anywhere. . Yet you like and accept him.
Deb, I'm eager to hear your impressions as you get further into the book. After reading these early chapters, you sense the same lack of energy and detachment that led Andy to identify signs of depression. The important thing for us to decide - is whether there was movement. Has Liam changed in any way since the beginning, or was there a change in him, even a subtle change.
Traudee reminds usthat Tyler's novels rarely have much of a plot - but that subtle changes do take place. It seems to me that the changes here are so subtle that we are likely to miss them. Liam let go of his last chance for happiness - when he sent Eunice packing. He tells us that himself. So what's changed? He's alone again. We're going to have to work a bit harder to discern the changes that have taken place before we can decide whether Anne T. has missed the mark. (Maybe we can make some suggestions to the author about what she needed to do to bring this story up to the level of her other novels. ;)
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Who asked "what made Liam such s dull boy in the first place?" It was someone here. Millie's death, yes, he is forever guilty that he was a bad husband. Pedln quotes the reason " because he knew he could have changed the outcome." Do you believe that's true? Could he have done more to bring his "golden girl out of her depression? Is it post partum depression? I'm not positive, but think I remember that he took her for counselling, but that went nowhere. Just pills. Liam seems too quick to blame himself.
Do we need to go back further to understand his meekness, his acceptance of everyone else's opinion of him, his feeling of inadequacy when it came to women. Let's look closer at MOM. Don't most boys' problems (or lack of them) with women come from their relationship with MOM? I have to say, I absolutely loved Tyler's rendering of Liam's mom. Her, no, not her, but Tyler's portrayal. And then DAD, and his reaction to life with mom and the kids. Can we possibly understand Liam's mindset if we don't understand where he's coming from? We don't hear much about Julia. Didn't she come from the same background? She certainly doesn't have the same problems Liam has - even with her total recall.
Was it too late by the time Barbara came onto the scene? Ginger thinks " Liam needed some one to lead/gently push him as it would have helped."
Yours was one of the strong, influential mothers - we haven't heard much about them here. She didn't understand the word "can't," did she?
Barbara sounded like just the help Liam needed. She wasn't needy, she wasn't one of those "sad women" - nor was she one of those pushy "picnic ladies". Why didn't that work?
I just loved Tyler's characterization of Barbara. Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Traudee.
Lots to talk about today -
Safe home, Pedln! You wouldn't believe this travelling lady - long distances, alone! We'll keep the light on for you...
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Re: Millie
She took an overdose. She was a huddled mass under the blankets on the sofa when Liam left around 7 am, for his study carrel in the library. He could have checked on her, woken her, spoke with her -- but he didn't. He might have been able to save her, and that's something he doesn't want to think about.
JoanP, I think you mean Julia -- Liam's sister. She hadn't seen her father in over forty years. Wouldn't even visit him in the hospital when he had a heart attack. Sad for her, sad for the father who hasn't a clue the effect HIS actions had on his children.
East and West coasters due here momentarily. Traffic coming here was horrible and a lot of very rude drivers who speed up when you want to pass.
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hi there
well I finished the book
...I would be interested in knowing more about the author ...how she came up with her inspiration to write something like this book!
when I think of Liam and his behaviour the word that comes to mind is 'numb'....he almost was able to move out of this state during his relationship with Eunice....but succumbed again to 'whatever state of mind' kept leading him to 'numbness'...but he seems almost content with his life & aloneness...oblivious to another frame of mindset; yet when others intrude upon this state...he gets a bit of a break from his usual frame of mind----but is happy to revert to his habitual pattern of behaviour as soon as they leave ....
I would really like to know the how the author came to write this type of book!
--once read a book of short stories, all by different authors (not my favourite reading material as a rule)...& each story was preceded by a paragraph or two on how each particular author came to write his/her particular story...it was very enlightening & gave a perspective to play around with when reading...
Deb
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There you are, Deb! We've been keeping the lights on for you and Pedln so to move on the the final phase of the discussion of Anne Tyler's book - the rating and the evaluation!
You've asked an interesting question - but the answer is not an easy one as this author gives so few interviews - doesn't believe in them. (Doesn't do book tours either.)
The best we were able to come up with over the course of this discussion concerning the author's inspiration from one of her rare interviews:
"One night after I'd gone to bed I heard the house creaking downstairs, but I was too sleepy to investigate. Then I started thinking about how if it were a burglar intent on beaning me, I wouldn't know anyway till I woke up the next morning. And so: no psychological trauma! Except I'd probably try for days to figure out what had happened. (Though perhaps not for as many days as Liam.)
Why that thought gave birth to a whole novel, I'm not sure. I do know that I have been fascinated by the subject of memory all my life. Now that I'm in my sixties, with instances of Alzheimer's disease on both sides of my family, my biggest fear is that I'll end up with no memory whatsoever. Yet I agree with Liam that there is such a thing as remembering too much, and I half admire his resolute refusal to dwell on his past."
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"When I think of Liam and his behaviour the word that comes to mind is 'numb'....but he seems almost content with his life & aloneness" Deb
That's an interesting observation, Deb. The state of "numbness" keeps Liam from dwelling on whatever has sent him into such a state in the first place, leaving him a "puddle of a man." It isn't really clear whether it was his childhood, his sad mother, his father who abandonned the home in search of happiness - or the loss of his golden girl, Millie. (I was interested to learn that their daughter's name, Xanthe, means "golden".) Did you get the impression that his life would have been quite different had things worked out with Millie? Was there an adequate explanation of what led to her suicide? Was it Liam's detachment?
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This is always an exciting part of the discussion of any book - YOUR thoughts on what the author has achieved. Don't hold back - (AT has declined the opportunity to participate in this discussion - as anticipated ;))
Overview, Rate the Book:
1. "I am not especially unhappy, but see no particular reason to go on living." Is Anne Tyler descibing Everyman here or just one depressed individual who found his life "heartbreaking" and his retirement years lonely?
2. What do you think was Anne Tyler's message to the reader with this novel?
3. Ignoring your opinion of the book as a whole, was there any part, any scene, or any character who made a particular impression or tickled your fancy?
4. All things considered, how many stars would you give this book, five being the highest? *****
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Tickled my fanc y -- just makes me smie.
It'sChristmas and Louise and family are there. Jpnah brings out his present for Liam -- bookmark
Liam waxes many kind thougts and tells Jonah how much he needed one
"Told ya", says Jonah to his mom'
"It was really supposed to be a parent present", saif Louise.
"Too bad," says Liam, "I't mine now."
Oh I love it, the two least ones have asserted their power.
Headin home , the final stretch today.
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these are quotes from within the book that captured my interest as far as the personality of Liam goes;
pg 215 "Was it possible, ....he was being too rigid, too moralistic, too narrow minded? That the greater good was to make the very most of their time here on earth?"
pg 205 "...your future depends on your past. It keeps shifting about; it's not carved in stone. It keeps bouncing off whatever happened earlier."
pg 262-3 Barbara's thoughts
"...you never argue with people's poor opinions of you. They can say the most negative things-that you're clueless, that you're unfeeling-and you say, 'Yes, well, maybe you're right.' ...."
Liam goes on to say " I just....don't seem to have the hang of things, somehow. It's as if I've never been entirely present in my own life."
Liam seems to self absorbed...he seems to let loose for short periods of time; for instance babysitting for his grandson, an almost involvement with Eunice; but then he seems rather glad to let everything go & get back to his 'aloneness' and inward dwellings about 'this that & everything.'
As far as Millie goes, I wonder if Liam is as he always was, behaviour wise, and Millie's hopes declined as their relationship progressed, what with Liam's incapacity to put more oomph into their relationship--could it be he was more active in his imagination, but poor in communicating any substantial feelings?
If you have communicated with Anne Tyler, I wonder if she is reading these thoughts & it would be interesting to know her feelings related to these....maybe she has a fan base online...think I'll see if I can search it out.
This is not my type of book...did read 'the accidental tourist' ..interesting scenario the main character writes about locations, but rarely goes touring, doesn't really care for that lifestyle...I may try another of her books...do any of you have one you might recommend ...again I did not really care for Noah's compass....his life seemed to go where outside events took him...and outside events gave him momentum over his own inertia!!!!!
I enter all the books I have read into www.readersopinions.com and I would give Noah's Compass a 4 out of 10 on that site
Deb
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Pedln - drive safe now. Loved the bookmark present too. Liam and Jonah have reached an understanding, haven't they? Because they were paying attention to one another? The same thing seems to have happened at the Texture Table in the Preschool. The little ones liked him because he spoke to them with a "grumbly voice." I don't think Miss Sarah was paying attention to what he was saying to them though. He seems to have been communicating with them on a level she didn't appreciate.
My lingering question - are we leaving Liam at a good place?
Debbie, a four out of ten would equal two stars out of five by our ranking - I think my math is right - **
Rather astonishing for one of Anne Tyler's books, no? I'll be interested to hear what others have to say. I don't think I'm going to rate it that low - (though I think it was perhaps too personal a reaction to talk about for a month! A better selection for a month-long discussion is A.S. Byatt's huge "Possession." I hope to see many of you in that discussion starting in a week.)
"could it be he was more active in his imagination, but poor in communicating any substantial feelings?" Debbie
I think you are on to something here. And maybe that's the reason I was able to relate to Liam. I also took a sober message from this book - about an "unexamined life", about the future...and how time is flying (running out?) - and what I want to accomplish in the time I have.
I think you'll find a huge fan base, but you will also find that Anne Tyler stays away from those discussions. If you find anything of interest, please let us know here? Though she was notified of this discussion through her publicist, I would doubt that she pays attention to discussions, articles and reviews. In one of her rare interviews, I read that of all of her 18 books, she would like to see the first three taken out of circulation. I thought that was funny...but understood what she was saying.
It is her Breathing Lessons that won recognition - the Pulitzer. Personally, I liked the Homesick Restaurant.
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Whew! I am glad we will soon be finished discussing this book. Joan, I agree, it probably wasn't book enough to warrent a month long discussion. I like Anne Tyler and was looking forward to reading/discussing this book, but......
There are several quotes/passages that stood out for me. In chapter 7 "Sometimes I think my life is just drying up & hardening, like one of those mouse carcusses you find beneath the radiator". Now that is a vivid image!
In chapter 12---"All along, it seems, he had experienced only the most glancing relationship with his own life. He had dodged the tough issues, avoided the conflicts & gracefully skirted adventure". That seems a pretty apt description of Liam's life to me.
Chapter 13---The trouble with discarding bad memories was that evidently the good ones went with them.
Using my personal system of rating this book. I give it a 2.5 out of 5.
Sally
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Sally ~ interesting rating, I'd give this novel a 6 out of 10.
Some of her books get a 9 out of 10, but perhaps that's too off-subject.
Why not a lower rating? The character Liam sticks in my mind, even though I ordinarily don't like people who are so passive. Tyler has a knack for painting characters who brush up against our memories, reminding us of someone we either liked or disliked. But she seems to always make us remember someone! Does that make Tyler the actual rememberer?
Have to stop now ... yesterday bought an unfinished bookcase which is setting in the garage, calling me to get going and put on the stain, stat! :D
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from DEb
pg 205 "...your future depends on your past. It keeps shifting about; it's not carved in stone. It keeps bouncing off whatever happened earlier."
Deb, I’m glad you pointed that out, from Liam’s step-mother’s comments. She’s so right – your future does depend on your past, and that’s one reason why I think you can’t plan your entire retirement (let alone y our life). You can set goals, and aim for them, but at some point your future becomes your past.
You call Liam self-absorbed. I wonder. Perhaps he’s just alone. Or perhaps self-absorbed leads to aloneness.
2. What do you think was Anne Tyler's message to the reader with this novel?
from JoanP
I also took a sober message from this book - about an "unexamined life", about the future...and how time is flying (running out?) - and what I want to accomplish in the time I have.
Does there have to be a message? Or is the author simply telling us about people and what they want or expect from life. All through this discussion, which I have enjoyed because of all of you, another book was running through my mind – probably familiar to many of you – Lois Lowry’s children’s/YA novel The Giver. This is about a planned society – from climate control to birth, to first haircut, to first bicycles, to marriage and eventually to “release.” All planned by the powers that be. It’s all meant to be lovely because no one has to make any decisions. Everything is planned out for them. And the Giver, of the title, is the one who holds the memories of what life was like before the beginnings of this society.
From Sally”He had dodged the tough issues, avoided the conflicts & gracefully skirted adventure". That seems a pretty apt description of Liam's life to me.
Well, Millie’s death was a tough issue and no doubt changes had to be me. I’m not sure why he gave up his PHD work, but assume he returned to Baltimore because he’d get some support from his sister and mother.
From Mippy
Tyler has a knack for painting characters who brush up against our memories, reminding us of someone we either liked or disliked. But she seems to always make us remember someone! Does that make Tyler the actual rememberer?
She surely does do that. Good point, Mippy. I think that's why I like Tyler so much. Whether I like or dislike they characters, they are people I can relate to. Some of their experiences are mine.
Did you buy a new bookcase to hold all your NEW books? :-*
Back later.
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Yes, Pedln, that's right ! ;)
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Pedln's back! Safe and sound...with a good question -
Does there have to be a message?
I suppose the answer to that question depends on your answer to this one -
Is Anne Tyler descibing Everyman here or just one depressed individual who found his life "heartbreaking" and his retirement years lonely?
If she is describing Everyman as he/she goes into retirement, then I suppose there is a message attached. If an individual who has chosen lonely last years, then there are not necessarily lessons tor the rest of us to take from it - just pity for this individual....
I'm interested in your ratings of this book - and especially your reasons for doing so.
I guess I'll translate Mippy's rating of a 6 out of ten as 3 stars? And then there's Salan's 2.5 stars and Debbie's 2 - So right now we're at 2.75.
Sally - I agree with this - "The trouble with discarding bad memories was that evidently the good ones went with them." Lots of insight here - makes you think of lots of things you wish you could forget~ BUT if it means forgetting everything, then maybe not.
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Anne-thank you for your suggestions of other books by Anne Tyler to try
will pull out a couple from the library to try on my next visit, --usually what draws my attention in libraries is the non-fiction area, and am at loss to find captivating fiction books to read (mind you am getting quite a number of interesting titles & authors to keep in mind from the 'around the world' area of the book groups in senior-net)
if it hadn't been for the reading group here and the interesting thoughts put forth would not have kept reading this book past 100 pages or so...too many interesting books to go thru to spend time on one that doesn't keep me with it----and thats what is so wonderful for belonging to a reading group; all those extra perceptions, thoughts & ideas to play around with
if Anne Tyler is so popular she must be very a very gifted author to have kept up her readership thru all the novels she has written, gives me incentive to try an earlier book by her but I stay with my rating on this book as a 2 out of 5
Deb
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Let me make another attempt to explain my reaction to, and indeed my enjoyment oft,his book.
First, if I remember correctly, it was Jude who mentioned everyman- a splendid reference, dating back fo a fifteenth century English morality play (and a similar Flemish one called "Homulus").
A modern version was written by the Austrian novelist, dramatist, librettist Hugo von Hoffmannsthal (1874-1929). The original title was Jedermann, das Spiel vom Sterben des reichen Mannes = Everyman, or the Play about the Death of the Rich Man. The play was first performed in 1911 and directed by the famous Max Reinhardt.
Since then (except for the war years), the play has been continuously performed and was as a highlight of the International Salzburg Festival , wnich was co-founded by von Hoffmannsthal. The summer of 2010 promises to be an extraordinary event : it is the 90th anniversary of the Salzburg Festival, that will involve the entire town.
*To refer first to # 189, where Pedln asked (and I paraphrase) "Does there have to be a nessage?"
There does not, is my opinion.
Nor is there a message in this book IMHO.
I've never looked for a message in any of Tyler's books - and I read them all - and what message, pray tell, could there be drawn from - to cite just one examaple - Ladder if Years? where the protagonist up and leaves her family on the Maryland seashore one fine summer's day without much more than her towel? After 20 or was it 21 years of marriage she believes ehe was taken for granted...
*Liam was hardly "everyman". Tyler depicts :quirky" characters, ddoesn't she?
Ir d we beed to explore the meanign of the term further?
*Liam was not depressed - though my reasoning obviously was unpersuasive, but he's quite possibly REpressed, or so I believe.
*Yes, yes, yes. He was a loner, sensitive (a trait rather rare in a male), acutely conscious of his mother's unhappiness, and his father's leaving the family for the younger femme fatale in the office, and riddled with (many unnecessary) guilt feelings.
Of course, it's ironic that Liam lives in this high-powered Beltway environment, totally uninterested in his "potential".
And Liam was not a loser - from my perspective.
Eunice comes closer to theat mark.
bit of a disappointment.
*Lastly, how could we even THINK, let alone TELL the author that she is off her mark? (and just where exactly is that mark?) ?
*Also, in all these long wonderful years, we have never ever striven for consensus -- afe we changing things?
In sum, have we really read the same book ?
Traude
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everyone:who is bored with their dail life is apt to fantecize howw it could be MAYBE but then they just move on doing what they hav to do. In tylers books some of her protagonists actually ACT OUT . . .do what they will as in the ladder book. Liam attempts to have a romance and it changes his expectations for a while until Eunice turns out to be a fraud and he lets it go, unwilling to compromise, settling for the actuality of the chair and his books, something of which he had always conceived as his likely retirement.
So . . . tyler writes about the human condition and DREAMs.
claire
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JoanG I agree. education is something that I was into after I was an adult. I went to ucla immediately after high school and even my art courses put a lot of unwelcome pressure on me but I stayd for four and a half years art and psychology magers back and forth without ever picking up the PAPER, not even the AA degree. I left to get married and only returned on my own to commuity college, as an adult. it is more like a trade school and really good for an artist with litho classes etc. I learned all about commercial art and architecture and literature and photography and automobile mechanics. . .and anything that drew me even a course on greek myths and loved it. I've been doing that ever since. now THAT is an education.
The only thing I ever did that was worth money was clerical and real estate sales, neither of which were financially rewarding. I kept wanting to change the systems in the real estate business for a better system of remuneration as in salaries, or consulting fees but not commissions. Commissions are promises that are seldom paid. it is a terrible way to make a living. I liked the legal aspects of it and property exploration. But I am a terrible sales person. I cannot tell anyone how to live or how to choose a home or ask them to spend so much money for MY benefit. Most of my associates were greedy grabbers with nice personalities. AWFUL.
claire
claire
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Re # 194. Claire, I hear you. I could not agree more, in, every respect. Thank you.
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It is wonderful reading of your reactions to this book! Consensus??? Not here. And especially not about this book. ;) ~ Though you seem to rate Noah higher than most of the others, Traudee. (Do you care to rate it with stars, five being the highest? )
But again, we are not trying to reach a consensus. We have each been describing our personal reactions to the book and are finding that they are very different. I find Everyman in Tyler's description of Liam's response to the process of aging - and retiring. But then we will all REACT to these challenges in our own way. Claire puts it very well, I think ~
"Tyler writes about the human condition and DREAMs."
The question I'll take from this book is a rather simple one - what will become of my own dreams? Will I act on them, or let them go because they require too much of an effort...
Can we agree that Liam made an attempt to ACT - was actually considering a marriage to this young woman, already married - chaotic as it would have been - but decided against it for good reasons? Even if he knew he might have been happy with her? (Can anyone explain what those reasons were? )
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Thank you, Traude, I think we’re on the same wave length –
He was a loner, and riddled with (many unnecessary) guilt feelings.
and you have stated my feelings about this book much better than I. Star rating – 4 out of 5 for me. And Claire, yes, Tyler writes about the human condition, and so much is familiar. I can still hear my eldest complaining, “I would have been grounded if I’d done that,” much like Xanthe and Louise complaining about the discipline of their younger sister.
I like Liam. I think we all know Liam, even Thoreau, who said “Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them. What is called resignation is confirmed desperation.”
As Bundy would say, “that’s our boy.”
But we leave Liam, content, contemplating Socrates. He wanted nothing, he had a chicken in the oven, a new book to read, was solvent and healthy.
And now someone will read the last line and say, “And, but?”
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Can we agree that Liam made an attempt to ACT - was actually considering a marriage to this young woman, already married - chaotic as it would have been - but decided against it for good reasons? Even if he knew he might have been happy with her? (Can anyone explain what those reasons were? )
JoanP, I think he really did not want to be his father. And there’s something that we have not touched on in this discussion (please correct me if I’m wrong) – this issue of “happiness” at any cost, regardless of the consequences.
And now I'd like to say that having ACTED once, having found a love, a new apartment, a new job, renewed relations with his family, he is free to ACT again. But that would probably be stretching a point and putting words into the author's mouth.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Noah's Compass ~ May Book Club Online
Everyone is invited - ANYTIME!
| (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/noahscompass/noahcover.jpg) | Anne Tyler's Noah's Compass was SeniorLearn's first choice for our May Book Club Online discussion. We do hope you will join us in what should be a meaningful, worthwhile experience. Tyler's protagonist, Liam Pennywell, tells his young grandson that Noah wasn't going anywhere in the Ark. "He was just trying to stay afloat. He was just bobbing up and down, so he didn't need a compass, or a rudder, or a sextant."
Liam Pennywell is troubled by his inability to remember anything about the first night that he moved into his new, spare condominium, after being laid off at 61 from a job he never liked. All he knows when he wakes up the next day in the hospital is that his head is sore and bandaged. For Liam, the most distressing part of his memory loss was that it felt like he was losing control.
And yet this novel is described as "gently humorous." Really.
We all know a Liam, the novel suggests. In fact, there may be a little of Liam in each of us. Just trying to stay afloat. Please plan to join us as we float along together.
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Discussion Schedule
May 1-7 ~ Chapters 1,2,3
May 8-14 ~ Chapters 4,5,6
May 15 -19 ~ Chapters 7,8,9
May20 -24 ~ Chapters 10,11,12,13
May 24-30 ~ Overview, Rate the Book
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Overview, Rate the Book:
1. "I am not especially unhappy, but see no particular reason to go on living." Is Anne Tyler descibing Everyman here or just one individual who finds his life "heartbreaking" and his retirement years lonely?
2. Do you think Anne Tyler conveys a message to the reader with this novel?
3. Ignoring your opinion of the book as a whole, was there any part, any scene, or any character who made a particular impression or tickled your fancy?
4. All things considered, how many stars would you give this book, five being the highest? *****
Relevant Links:
Amazon.com. - Used copies available (http://www.amazon.com/);
READERS' GUIDE QUESTIONS - CHAPTERS 1-9 (http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/NoahsCompass_Tyler.html);
Bruce Frankel's What Should I Do With the Rest of My Life? (http://www.amazon.com/What-Should-Do-Rest-Life/dp/1583333657)
Anne Tyler's Baltimore (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/americas/in-search-of--anne-tyler-in-baltimore-602287.html);
Discussion Leaders: JoanP (jonkie@verizon.net) & Pedln (mailto:ann.bartlett@att.net )
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Even without a compass, Noah made it to dry land! As we near the port, I'd like to say a big thank you to all of you for sharing your views on this book - and for letting us in on your retirement plans and/or dreams! We couldn't have asked for a better crew~
And thank you too, Pedln - your upbeat posts were always a delight! First mate extraordinaire!
Hope to see you all next cruise.
ps - we'll stay open a few more days for late swimmers -
Oh - I've decided to give the book 3 stars - I still love and appreciate AT - though I feel she might have fleshed this one out a bit more >
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No, but the memory loss is what triggered the story - and what brings Eunice into Liam's life.
I'd say that Liam is not so concerned about recovering his lost memory any more, either. Does he see that the "rememberer" is not going to be of any help to him? She talks about being a biology major - but can't find a job in the field... Now she's afraid she'll lose this job because Mr. Cope isn't improving.
Liam thinks there is something familiar about her - do you see why?
Is there any way to prepare for impending memory loss? It's Mrs. Cope who has hired Eunice. Mr. Cope doesn't seem to understand what Eunice is doing - she works for the company - takes notes at meetings.
Is losing memory something you fear happening to you? Is there any way to prepare for it?
In general, I am seeing less of concern about memory loss, now that we are this far into the book -but more concern about planning for the future, for retirement. Actually, Liam didn't plan his career very well either. What did he expect to do with his degree in Philosophy? How did he decide to go into education...with no preparation, no credentials.
. Do you think young people are often unaware of their own strengths and need objective help choosing a career path? Do you think similar guidance might help with retirement planning? I do, but where would one go for such guidance?
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I finally rceived the book from the library a few days ago and read it .
I like Anne Tyler and have read a number of her novels in the past. I would give this book a 3 star rating .
I disliked Liam as a character because he was not a man of action but allowed himself to drift along . He was a loser in every sense of the word . Unsuccessful in both professional and personal relationships . No compass, no rudder, drifting along.
I thought of the poem Invictus " I am the Master of my fate I am the Captain Of My Sol ". when I thought of Liam . He created his own outcome in his life .
Achieving less and less in his life decisions .
I was happy that he apologized to his daughter Xthanthe finally and and therefore opened the door for a more positive relationship in the future .
Liam is presented as a very weak peersonality with poor choices and does not help to create positive (successful) outcomes in his life . WE certainly are the Master of Our Fate and the Captains of Our Soul .
Thank you Discussion Leaders for the chance to discuss Tyler's novel.
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i give this book 4 stars out of 5 stars...I agree with Traude in her comments...Also agree with Pedlin....I enjoyed this book and think it is a worthwhile read....As for preparing for retirement are you sure we really can prepare...I am not sure of that. One never knows what will hit them healthwise and that has alot to do with what happens to us in retirement...Joan Grimes
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Since this is almost the end of the month, I'd like to thank our sterling, outstanding DL's,
JoanP and Pedln.
This was a more uneven book than many of us expected, but you two were up to it !!
And thanks to everyone who posted, you brightened up my month!
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Retired, I’m so glad you finally got the book and had a chance to read it, even though we have different opinions about the characters. But that’s what makes a discussion so interesting and fun and worthwhile – different strokes for different folks.
Thank you all for your input. And as well as your opinions, I also really enjoyed learning about your retirements and the paths that led you all there. And a special thanks to JoanP, who navigated our course well, through doldrums and smooth sailing.