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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/dancingattherascalfaircover.jpg) |
Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains.
Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country.
It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble)
"Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/two%20medecine%20lake%20(275x207).jpg)
Discussion Schedule:
August 1 ~ 5 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 13 Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
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Some Topics for Consideration
August 1-5 Chapters 1 - 6 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge
1. Which of the two Scottish lads would you prefer as a companion on the ship across the ocean?
Were they equally for leaving Scotland "with no divided heart"?
2. Do you find Angus' hesitation and backward glances easier to understand than Rob's lack of emotion?
Do you feel you know Angus better because he is the narrator? Had he been happy in Nethermuir?
3. What is it about the Irish girls who come aboard in Queenstown to sell their wares that reminds Angus of the tune of the title, "Dancing at the Rascal Fair"?
4. How does Ivan Doig paint Gros Ventre? Do you remember the buildings there? (There weren't many.) What is a medicine lodge?
5. What do you think of Lucas Barclay and his Nancy? What can be learned of the history of the area from Nancy's story?
6. What do you know homesteading in America in the late 19th century? What is one drawback that would keep one from wanting to own land in this particular area?
Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act (http://homesteadcongress.blogspot.com/2010/01/all-aboard-homestead-trains-ho.html)
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/grosVentreHistory.php)
Discussion Leaders: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com ) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Welcome, everyone! Off to Montana at last! Have you ever visited this the Two Medicine Creek part of the state? We stayed in Butte, then Cut Bank when visiting Glacier National Park. A mistake to try to try to do it in one day, we learned. It was September - so misty/foggy and light snow, too, there was no view. But we can claim to have been there.
Coming from the East - I can see I'm going to learn a lot about the area and its history - all while reading Doig's absorbing story.
(http://www.browningmontana.com/images/blackfeetnationmap.gif)
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Someone asked in the pre-discussion about French-speaking people in that area. I'd think the name Gros Ventre and any other French names came from the French fur-trappers that were active throughout the Canadian and American west in the pre-settlement time.
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I'm here and eagerly awaiting everyone's response to the first 88 pages. This book "throws me off" somewhat in that it is being narrated by one character to another. Where is Rob and why is Angus telling him the story? The division of the book is a little confusing. I much prefer "regular" chapters. However, that being said, I will probably read ahead as the book is beginning to be interesting.
It would be hard to decide which character I would enjoy traveling with. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. I guess I lean more toward Angus......
Sally
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Well, we're off! I think you're going to find this a great trip.
Doig uses fresh images that catch the attention and amuse. "..a laugh like a parrot at a bagpipe.." And Angus says of himself, "My mind lacks clench. Rob had a fist there in his head".
QWhat do you think he meant by that, a mind lacking 'clench'?
Another description of Rob by Angus...”...you were smiling hard, that Barclay special mix of entertainment and estimation.”
So, what sort of picture are you getting of these two young men? Which one
do you most closely identify with?
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Maryz - thanks for answering the question that came up in the Pre-discussion about the French names we are finding here in this part of Montana. Gros Ventre was one - Toussaint Rennie another. French fur traders, you say. I found something interesting about that strange name - Gros Ventre - big belly. I'll save it - until we get the boys across the Atlantic from Scotland...
Sally - an interesting observation. I agree with you, Angus the narrator - but to whom is he telling the story? Maybe to us?
Why do you lean towards travelling with Angus? I think it would be fun to go to a party with Rob - he knows how to have a good time. But crossing the Atlantic under the conditions described? Angus seems to have prepared himself for the voyage. I wondered whether his guide was real - googled and found this - Croffut's Transcontinental Guidebook (http://cprr.org/Museum/Crofutt_1872/index.html) - could this be the one Angus packed for the trip?
Babi - I'll have to think about Angus' mind lacking "clench." Back later...
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Angus "speaking" to Rob - and then "about" Rob was the first thing that confused me about Doig's writing. I finally got into the rhythm of it, though.
I'm not sure which one I would rather have had as a companion. I would probably get impatient with Angus' hesitancy and annoyed with Rob's impetuousness .
I think Angus was reminded of the song "Dancing At The Rascal Fair" because, as Doig wrote, "the flirting seemed to be free" as the Irish women sold their wares. So he was teasing Rob. Typical of two 19-year-old fellows, don't you think?
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Good way of describing it, CALLIE. I think Doig was using this technque so that
we could get a good picture of Rob. He not only records their conversations, but
also his image of the Barclay's in general and Rob in particular. Angus we can
know because we are privy to this thoughts.
Rob...bold, eager, confident. Angus more thoughtful, but with a strong bond of friendship with Rob. Rob is the one eager to emigrate. Angus dreads the ocean but will not let Rob down. Many are emigrating from "The pinched old earth called Scotland". "And every last inch of it everlastingly owned by those higher than Angus McCaskill and Rob Barclay." That likely sums up neatly the reasons for most emigration.
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Are you finding the site excruciatingly slow today - as I am? Easy to blame the heat - but it may be something else. Know that we are trying to figure out what the problem is.
Callie, I think it's safe to say that the story is being told from Angus' point of view - no matter who is speaking - or to whom. ;D It is Angus who introduces Rob - describes him - and sometimes he even explains his behavior, doesn't he?
Rob exudes confidence - even when it is not warranted. Babi, I think that's what Angus meant when he said his teeth "lacked clench." I looked back to that passage - he was commenting on Rob's ability to "hold that smile effortlessly the way a horse holds a bit between his teeth."
"It can be said my mind lacks clench." Angus needs believe - before he can smile.
If I had to choose, I'd take Angus. I need someone who is straightforward - not a big talker. Angus seems to have a store of verse and song in his head - I was surprised to hear of the Rascal Fair dance so early in the story...when their ship stopped in Queensland and the Irish girls came aboard. (Queensland was the old name for Cobh - my Irish great grandmother sailed from this port around this same time. Maybe she met the boys?)
Notice that Angus had paid attention to his Corfutt guide - and purchased the lemons from the Irish girl who came aboard to peddle them.
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Babi - you noted how Rob is the one eager to emigrate. Did you get the impression he was running away from something or from someone - or was he simply eager to earn the kind of money his Uncle Lucas was making in Montana? It was a bit strange that he showed so little emotion leaving his family. Angus on the other hand, had no one left in Scotland, and yet he is feeling it as the ship leaves the harbor and pulls away from all that he has ever known.
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I am excited to be here. It's my first time on an online bookclub or any online chat. I probably will have to keep a low profile as I discovered Rascal Fair a couple of months ago and fell in love with the book. I am now into my 7th Doig book and loving every word. My book club is doing the trilogy of "Dancing at the Rascal Fair" "English Creek" & "Ride With Me, Mariah Montana" in September altho we don't expect everyone to read them all by then (unless they get as enthralled as I did). I shouldn't comment on who I'd rather travel with because I know too much about Rob & Angus. But I think at the time I was starting the :) book I probably would have picked Angus. Happy reading to you all. It's a great read! :)
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Joan, I agree that the story is told from Angus' point of view - and will continue to be so.
Rob may have been less hesitant to leave because he knew there was a family member at the destination.
He's the impetuous one - just heading out with no real plan in mind except to get to Montana and find Uncle Lucas.
Angus' childhood experiences may have made him more cautious about taking the risk of going into the unknown. The Corfutt guide helps him feel prepared.
I like his witty sense of humor that comes out unexpectedly.
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"It's hotter'n hot, said the Hottentot".....Does anyone know where that expression originated? I tried "googling" it, but came up with some very strange things and no answer. I think that expression stuck with me because here in TX we are starting our 2nd month of triple digit weather and no rain in site. Right now the mountains of Montana sound pretty good!
I think I would prefer traveling with Angus because he was a planner (I am, too), and Rob was impetuous. A person could get in trouble that way!
Sally
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Marloh - we are just as excited to have you join us. There is so much here, that even if you know the plot, I'm sure that you will find that an online book club can add so much. First there is the resource of the Internet at your finger tips. But more than that - there are people from all over the country - no, I meant to say - from all over the world... who share experience and observations that you won't find anywhere.
We're really excited to have you here with us! Welcome!
I was interested in what you had to say about your choice of travelling companion. We really don't have much to go on yet, do we? As Callie points out, the story is told from Angus' point of view. I guess we'll have to observe Rob for ourselves to get a balanced understanding of him.
Does anyone remember if the boys intended to take advantage of the Homestead Act as they travelled to Montana? Did either of them know anything about farming, or ranching? Did they have any idea what Lucas was doing to earn his money when they left home? Terrible memory...
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"Hotter'n hot, said the Hottentot."
Sally, now you've got me searching, googling away the hour! The expression is soo familiar, isn't it? We've been over 100º here in the DC area too...although this week is a bit better - down to 97º predicted for tomorrow. You're right - it's the lack of rain that's making it rough.
Interesting that you brought up the mountains of Montana - I remember making a note last week when reading of the high temperatures in Montana - "Montana is up so high, it's next door to the sun." I put an exclamation point next to that paragraph. Maybe I can find it. Maybe it was next to the Hottentot phrase. ;) So is it true - about Montana's high temperatures?
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Good morning! I'd like to join the group although several houseguests over the next couple of weeks might keep me away.
I've just started the book, my first time reading Ivan Doig. Also, I've never been to Montana, so the geographical references are going to be a great leaning experience!
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Welcome, Marloh, I'm looking forward to talking with you. How did you find us?
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I've never been to Montana, but I lived in Colorado for 15 years - 2 years out on the plains and 13 years in Leadville, which is 10,200 feet above sea level.
I'm guessing the two states might be similar - although the area where the "boys" were in Montana is much farther north.
Daytime temperatures on the flat plains of Colorado could soar into the 100's (F.). In the mountains, the 80's (F.) were considered a "high temperature".
However, at that altitude, the sun is so intense that you can sunburn badly even in winter temperatures below freezing and the humidity is so low that it doesn't feel that cold.
Also - when the sun goes down behind the mountains, the air cools quickly and night time temps are cold. We had no need for a/c in Leadville and our furnace came on during the night all summer.
The "saying" was that Leadville had "eleven months of winter and one month of very late Fall". :) I remember my tulips blooming through a late May snow that blanketed the ground for several days.
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JoanP, like you I feel I don't really know what Rob is like yet.
I think the boys knew about the Homestead Act before they emigrated. I don't remember any first-hand farming experience, though, and they didn't really know anything about what Lucas was doing, just that he was able to send home $100, a magnificent sum, every Christmas.
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JOAN, I think Rob was simply ambitious for more than he could hope to find in Scotland.
And young people are always so eager to leave the nest. I doubt if they ever think they
might miss those at home. As for Angus, his strongest bond is with Rob. The ocean is
terrifying to him. After all, he was raised on the story of his great-grandfather nearly
drowning. If it were not for Rob, I think Angus would have been content to remain in
Scotland.
But there was another important lesson Angus learned from his grandfather and great-
grandfather. LIke, "But the job was there at the Bell Rock. It was to be done, afraid or no afraid."
WELCOME, MARLOH! And don't be shy; we want your comments. I have read the book before,
also, but I just take each section as it comes up in the discussion.
"A person could get in trouble that way!"
Those words may be prophetic, SALLY.
JOAN, when the boys left, they understood Lucas to be involved in silver mining. They
fully expect to join him and hopefully, become prosperous from mining, too.
Oh, good, MIPPY! Wonderful to have you. You're really going to love Doig.
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Doig paints scenes very colorfully. In the chaotic scene where the bumboat women are selling anything and everything to the passengers, did anyone think of "HMS Pinafore"? It's not as colorful, but the opening scene has a bumboat woman (Little Buttercup) coming on board, selling all her wares to the sailors.
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Mippy - Welcome. Hopefully you can find some time to share your thoughts. Do you have the book in hand?
Funny, PatH - your post sent me back to the ship - I'd forgotten what sort of things the Irish lasses were hawking to the men - and was reminded of the cheeses, apples...and pinafores! Easy to see how you made the connection. Do you think Doig was thinking of this musical too?
If I pack for an ocean voyage in the future, I'll have to read my Crofutt's again. It wasn't lemons the silent lady was holding in her hands - but the green "balls" she sold to Angus - were limes. Yes, I'll stay close to Angus until we reach Montana, anyway. He might be scared out of his mind, but he's prepared for the journey.
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Babi - remembers the boys went to Montana expecting to work and make a fortune in the silver mines! PatH thinks they knew about the Homestead Act...maybe there was advertising i overseas? Is that why people were emigrating to America?
Callie - we visited Leadville! When were you there? I was fascinated with the story of Baby Doe Tabor, who married tha wealthy "silver kind - lived it up until silver crashed at the end of the 19th century...Maybe it was just as well the boys didn't get into siilver after all. I had you pegged for an OKlahoma girl - but now see that you lived in Colorado too. Anything you can tell us about the Homestead Act would be helpful.
Can't you just imagine the amazement - after that journey with Herbert through the wilderness...when they pulled into the town of Gros Ventre? Was it actually a town? I can't find any record of it now - maybe it didn't ever develop into the boom town Lucas dreamed it would...
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JoanP, we lived in Leadville from 1964 - 1977. My husband was with the school system.
I'm "a Sooner born and a Sooner bred..." (both parents' families here before statehood) but "left to see the world" after college - and got as far as Amarillo! :) Met/married my hubby there and we moved to Colorado 4 years later. I've been back in Oklahoma for 34 years, so I guess I'll stay this time. ;)
In Angus' "thought soliloquy" (?) the first night on the ship, he says, "...when Rob caught America fever, I saw all too readily the truth in what he said about...the great American land pantry in such places as his uncle's Montana, where homesteads were given...in exchange for only a few years of earnful effort."
I didn't see any comment telling how he knew this.
There's quite a bit about homesteading at the beginning of our next section. I thought I'd wait until then to comment on the process.
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I looked Gros Ventre up on Google maps - there is a creek by that name, but no town - at least not now.
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Rosemarykaye, just in case these terms we're tossing about aren't familiar:
The Homestead Act, signed by Abraham Lincoln in 1862, gave anyone over 21 the right to 160 acres of undeveloped federal land west of the Mississippi, which meant most of the yet-to-be states, if he would live on it for 5 years, improve it, i. e. farm it, (and, of course, fill out the necessary paperwork). It shaped our nation--an opportunity to make a new, better life for anyone with the guts to try, and it's part of our mindset.
A Sooner is someone who settled an area before the official starting time, and Oklahoma is the Sooner State because there were a lot of Sooners. So Callie is a double Sooner.
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Oklahoma was unusual because Native Americans had been assigned almost all of what would become a state in 1907.
There was an area in central Oklahoma that had not been assigned to Native Americans and it was called - TA DAH! - The Unassigned Lands.
In 1889, a Land Run was held to allow homesteaders to make a claim in this area. This land run was the central plot of Edna Ferber's novel, "Cimarron" (the Cimarron River was the northern boundary of the Run area and the movie "Far and Away".
Four other areas were settled with a Land Run - and two areas with Lotteries.
I don't think any other state was opened for homesteading in either of these ways.
"Sooners" were the people who came in before the official time of the Land Runs and were usually run out by Federal Marshalls. They would not have been able to file a claim until the time at which the legal "Boomers" could do so.
As far as I can tell from the next section we'll read in "Dancing...", the filing process was the same. More on that when we get there.
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I was surprised to find, from Doig's 'Acknowledgments', that Montana had more homesteaders
than any other state. There was definitely advertising overseas for settlers, primarily from
the railroads.
I'm pretty sure Gros Ventre was a fictional town, but it was typical of many of the 'towns'
that cropped up as settlers/ranchers came in. It was rather startling what could be called a
town back in the beginning.
I guess we're all familiar with the use of limes by British seamen. But I didn't know travelers
-at least in steerage- needed to bring their own cutlery to eat with. It sounds as though ships
were owned or hired by companies luring settlers to America; entire ships filled with hopeful
landseekers. Land in Europe, as Angus noted, was pretty much firmly in the hands of the wealthy and nobility. Not much opportuity to better one's lot there.
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Good morning! So much helpful information here today. Again, I need help remembering how Lucas came to this "town" - and set up his "Medicine Lodge" - I know he was in that dreadful blast in the mine that took both of his hands - but how did he make it into the wilderness and Gros Ventre? Was the silver mine nearby?
Maryz - thanks for searching on the Internet for Gros Ventre. Babi's probably right about it being a "fictional town." Or possibly it was a little settlement the railroad didn't come through and was simply abandonned. Then the question would have to be asked - was "Scotch Heaven" ficitional?
I found some further information on the name....the Gros Ventres were an Indian tribe, later became associated with the Blackfeet. Really, not fiction. Here's an actual photograph - (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/images/43781group.jpg)
Fascinating. If you're interested in reading more about them... Gros Ventre Indians in Montana (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/grosVentreHistory.php) They still live on The Fort Belknap reservation in Montana...
So we get an idea of Nancy's people and how and why she came to the settlement in Gros Ventre with Uncle Toussaint.
Callie - thanks for the information on the Oklahoma settlement of the "Unassigned" lands. It appears that land has already been assigned to the Blackfeet and associated tribes in Montana as well - by the time the Homestead Act made land available to the rest of the country. Babi found the link in the heading regarding the Homestead Act: -
"1862 saw the United States Congress pass two pieces of legislation, the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act, which dramatically opened up the west. These bills helped turn the Great American Desert into the breadbasket of the world and gave 1.6 million families land of their own- the same time the TransContinental Railroad was approved.'
The "west" is now open for all bold and daring enough to attempt to settle. Can you tell us which geographic areas were open for settlement? From Oklahoma west? The boys seem to have left Scotland in 1889. This is the same year that Montana became a state. Do you think the Homestead Act opens land in this new state - beginning now - 1889?
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JoanP, Sorry, I don't know about Homesteading anywhere except Oklahoma. Here's a link to some maps showing Indian "assignments" and the "Twin Territories".
http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/state-1890.htm (http://www.okatlas.org/okatlas/geopolitical/state-1890.htm)
Click on "Indian Territory and No Man's Land" to see the various Indian assignments.
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Thanks for the explanations - I definitely need them!
All this reminds me a little of the many people that went to Australia on the £10 tickets when I was a child. A friend of my mother's went with her husband and children. They found it very hard when they arrived (this must have been the early 1960s), but in the end I think they did quite well. There was a huge campaign to get people to emigrate at that time, when the UK was still really in the post-war doldrums - and as you say, all of the land in the UK - especially in Scotland - has been and remains in the possession of a few very wealthy families, with no possibility of anyone else getting their hands on it.
Does anyone know if it was Montana that Annie Proulx wrote her latest book about?
Thanks
Rosemary
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I Googled "Montana Homesteading" and this is the only link I found that gave information about it. The dates here don't fit the dates in "Dancing..." and I couldn't find anything about homesteading in the late 1800's. I thought the English nobility settled there during those years. Curious!!!!
http://montanakids.com/history_and_prehistory/Frontier_Life/homesteaders.htm (http://montanakids.com/history_and_prehistory/Frontier_Life/homesteaders.htm)
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Does anyone know if it was Montana that Annie Proulx wrote her latest book about?
Thanks
Rosemary
I thought it was, but it turns out it's Wyoming.
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Annie Proulx - isn't she wonderful? Yes, Rosemary, as PatH says, Annie is to Wyoming what Ivan Doig is to Montana. - He was born here, his heart is here.
Callie, I was interested in your post - that found the dates of Montana Homesteading were not jiving with the novel.
I'm so positive that he knows the facts and the dates he's writing about - as well as he knows his own telephone number - I just had to do my own search. I found much the same as you didl...
"The floodgates of homesteading opened in the mid-1800s. With cities and farmland overcrowded in the East, the United States government under President Abraham Lincoln established the Free Homestead Act in 1862. With the goal of “settling” the West (even though much of the land was already home to Native Americans), the Act allowed homesteaders to file for 160-acre claims. As long as they “proved up” the acreage in five years—which essentially meant building a home and cultivating the land—it was theirs at no cost besides nominal filing fees.
Although homesteading was initiated in 1862, the boom in Montana really began in 1906 when more than 100,000 immigrants staked their claim in the state. With rugged determination to succeed on farms of wheat or stock, each poured his heart, soul and elbow grease into making it work. However, not even hard work could stop the coming of 1919 and the years that followed. This period marked the start of a severe agricultural depression in Montana. Devastating drought, dry grass, low crop yields and starving livestock caused farms to disappear nearly as quickly as they were established. It’s estimated that half the homesteaders went bust."
Montana's Homesteading Heritage (http://www.montanaliving.com/People/Montana-s-Homesteading-Heritage-526?nfc19320=70e)
Shall we assume that the boys are early in the race for the land? Perhaps this area is so far out of the way that it is as yet undiscovered? I'm wondering whether Lucas would have been so generous helping the boys if it wasn't for the fact that Rob is showing interest in Nancy - even planning on staying on in Gros Ventre. So much for his big plans that he brought from Scotland with him. I'm wondering what's going on in Nancy's head. She doesn't seem to have much to say, does she? You can't tell if she returns Rob's interest.
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The boys are definitely early in the move to homestead in Montana. The time line of the book is from 1889(?) and goes into the 20th century. So it's not off that timeline.
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I'm pretty sure people were taking advantage of the Homestead Act well before statehood.
Settlement had to come first; Statehood depended on a having an appreciable population first.
I found this link on the subject: http://www.answers.com/topic/northwest-ordinance
Thanks for that link, CALLIE. It makes a good point; early settlers looking at those immense
prairies and endless forests could not have imagined it possible to ever 'use it all up'.
Unfortunately, as we well know now, it was very possible.
Yes, indeed,...Rob and Angus and Lucas before them, were earlier immigrants to Montana.
They would have been there some years before the big influx of homesteaders. As I recall,
most of the emigrants on the ship that brought the boys were headed to closer areas of
settlement. It was having a relative in Montana that took them there.
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My grandfather "came West" from Wheeling West VA to Iowa in 1881. He became a real estate agent and went into the insurance business.
I have original letters from his friend (still in Wheeling) to Grandfather as they were discussing moving further on - in 1884. A letter written on March 1 states that Grandfather has been reading up on Montana and friend John thinks that sounds good because they would "start with everyone else and have no established men to buck against."
However, on March 30, 1884, John has decided "Montanna (his spelling) is too limited in its resources, being good only for cattle raising." (He thinks the two men should read for the law). He wants to go to Washington since the Northern Pacific RR is opening that territory up; when the RR decides where its terminus will be, they will settle there.
Actually, they both ended up in Nebraska at the end of 1884 and never went any farther! Neither of them read for the law, either; they both became bankers.
Unfortunately, I have no letters that my grandfather wrote so I don't really know his opinions.
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I remember now the big STATEHOOD celebration when the boys were in Helena- looking for Lucas and his silver mine. When they reached Gros Ventre - learned of Lucas' accident - Angus rode out to Scotch Heaven - where Nineas Duff and several other ranchers had already set up their homesteads. So that must be right, Babi - "people were taking advantage of the Homestead Act well before statehood." Thanks for the interesting link to the formation of "townships."
I remember those conversations aboard the crowded ship. No one else was coming to America to take advantage of the Homestead Act. For that matter, Rob and Angus were coming to make big money in the silver mines - "Montana, nothing but mountains, from the name of it, one of them said"
Those letters are priceless, Callie! So your grandfather's friend, John - thought the land was lacking in resources, but was good for cattle raising. And sheep too, I'll bet. Lucas' offer to partner the boys with a band of sheep gets Rob's attention. What of Nancy? Did you notice Rob doesn't hesitate to jump on Lucas' offer? Would Lucas have offered to "partner" the boys if Nancy had not been in the picture? So the plans change - the would-be silver miners are on their way to becoming landowners.
An they are early, have beat the rush and have their pick of the choice plots.
Was Nancy dallying with Rob? I found it hard to tell. She doesn't seem to reveal her thoughts one way or another. - Does she speak? What a life she has led! Isn't this an enjoyable way to learn history?
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Two things I want to comment on before we move on: work and money.
Both boys accept work as a given, and never give it a thought or seem to complain about it. When they see that it will take a while to find Lucas, they just get jobs, thinking about inflow to balance outflow. When Ninian Duff asks Angus if he's afraid of work, his answer is "none that I've met yet". That's how it had to be back then, and Angus has been self-supporting for some time, but how many nineteen year olds have that attitude now.
Money: the boys take jobs whenever they are stuck somewhere for a while, but they seem to have had enough to get them to Montana and sustain them for a while first, and it never seems to be a big issue. They must have had enough savings to make it comfortable, unlike many immigrants.
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I think both boys are very resourceful and open to all opportunities they encounter. Angus sums it up by saying, "So there is the sum we were...as our Scotland-leaving year of 1889 drew to a cold close in new Montana." "Persons we'd been all our lives and persons becoming new to ourselves."
He also says, "The notion grew on me that maybe I might as well go ahead and try a bit of land looking...just to be sure we weren't missing some undisclosed reason for hope here in Gros Ventre's neighborhood." So he is the one who thought about getting a homestead.
Nancy's story reminded me of the stories about the Comanches and other tribes described in "Empire of the Summer Moon". Being restricted to defined reservations without the ability to move freely as the seasons dictated was disastrous for most - if not all - of the Plains Indian tribes after they came under the jurisdiction of the federal government.
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Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig
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Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains.
Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country.
It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble)
"Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review |
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Discussion Schedule:
August 1 ~ 5 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 14 Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
August 15 ~ 21 The Steaders (about 75 pages)
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Some Topics for Consideration
August 6-13 Scotch Heaven
Scotch Heaven
1. "So many of the arrivees originated in the land of the kilt and the bagpipe." Who arrived in Gros Ventre first, Lucas Barclay or Ninean Duff?
2. "The land had been made into arithmetic." Had you any idea land was so carefully divided into a boustrophedon? Was this Greek pattern decided upon in Washington? What did Angus' Section #31 plot and Rob's #32 choice say about the personality of each of the boys?
3. Is raising sheep still a major enterprise in Montana? Why did Rob pressure Angus to borrow even more from Lucas to invest in more sheep? Where had Lucas made all his money?
4. Who do you think may have influenced the "school board" to hire Angus to be the new schoolmaster? Why did Angus accept? Do you think he was a wise choice?
5. What was Angus' response to Ninean Duff's pressure to take a more orthodox view in his teaching? What does this tell about Angus?
6. "Anna Ramsay, a glory of a woman" - Do you believe in love at first sight? What did you think of Anna?
7. What do we learn of the Blackfeet in Montana? How did Lewis and Clark affect the development of this area? Can you find the meaning of a medicine lodge ?
8. "Adair is not to be fretted about." What do you think of the determination of this young woman in this strange new land?
Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act (http://homesteadcongress.blogspot.com/2010/01/all-aboard-homestead-trains-ho.html)
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/grosVentreHistory.php)
Ivan's Notes on his home page (http://www.ivandoig.com/notes.html)
Discussion Leaders: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com ) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
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PatH - I agree - and it was BOTH of the boys who worked hard - not just Angus. Sometimes I think Rob is portrayed as a lesser character. Perhaps it's his confidence that makes him seem a bit cocky. But it's his confidence that keeps them going, even when plans and expectations are shattered.. His confidence is contagious. Thanks for reminding that it was Angus who thought about the possibility of homesteading, Callie. He gets the ideas, but thinks about them - and then waits for Rob to make decisions before making his own - have you noticed that?
Callie, there are a number of things here that remind me of Empire of the Summer Sun...such as the dishonest Indian Agent who pocketed the rations intended for the reservation in '83 that caused hundreds of the Blackfeet to starve to death - which is why Nancy ended up in Gros Ventre.
We're wondering how many of you have moved into the Scotch Heaven chapter? According to the schedule, we've been planning to go there in the morning. Ready to start? Some of you may not have finished. We could talk about the first half of it until everyone catches up. Let us know, okay? Don't want to be spoilers for anyone.
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At last we meet Lucas Barclay. "...Lucas Barclay had that same burnish that glowed on Rob. The
face and force to go with it, for that matter. These Barclays were a family ensemble, they all
had a memorable glimmer." I think our Rob had a touch of that alluring attribute, 'charisma!'.
There is no question that he takes the lead in this adventure, and Angus follows him as he has
done all their lives. Which is not to say that he doesn't have a mind of his own and will take
the initiative when he sees the need for it. So what sort of young man is Angus McCaskill? Curious, wanting to know all rhere is to know. More schooling than Rob; more thoughtful. No fool.
Another glimmer into Rob Barclay. He is shocked that such a thing as Lucas suffered could
happen to a Barclay. Rob expects to be successful in all he does; he cannot imagine the world not conforming to his expectations. I suppose many young people starting in the world must feel like that.
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Callie, I'm thinking of you and Babi in Oklahoma and Texas - the draught, the heat! How are you holding up? Thoughts and prayers are with you and yours at a time like this!
Are you curious about the author's background to have produced this so authentic account of the homesteading and the Scottish settlers in this area of Montana? He was born in Montana - in the small town of White Sulpher Springs. Not sure how near that is to Gros Ventre - or Scotch Heaven...fictional towns, I imagine. Who knows, maybe this is the very town. Do you remember if the fictional Scotch Heaven was south of Helena - as White Sulpher Springs is said to be?
Like the Barclays, he had a Scottish great uncle - the "first of the family to come from Scotland to Montana." He writes in Ivan's Notes on his home page (http://www.ivandoig.com/dancingbn.html) ~
"My own western existence has bordered the lives of the last homestead generation, the settlers who poured into Montana between 1900 and 1918 under the spell of the dream of making the state "the last and best grain garden of the world." My father was born in a log homestead cabin south of Helena in 190l. And now that I am deep-bearded, I've been told continually by older Montanans of my resemblance to my father's long-lived uncle, D.L. Doig, the first of the family to come from Scotland to Montana."
He adds the only pertinent information about himself in Ivan's Notes on his home page (http://www.ivandoig.com/notes.html) ~
" the red-headed only child, son of ranch hand Charlie Doig and ranch cook Berneta Ringer Doig (who died of her lifelong asthma on my sixth birthday), who in his junior year of high school (Valier, Montana; my class of 1957 had 21 members) made up his mind to be a writer of some kind."
Still wondering at the number of Scots living in this area - to the exclusion of almost everyone else. There was one family from MO as I recall. Was Ninean Duff living there in Scotch Heaven before Lucas Barclay arrived in Gros Ventre? I'd like to think that Lucas had something to do with directing Scottish family to the settlement.
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I have always assumed his book were at least partially autobiographical.
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This long stretch of temperatures over 100º is wearing on everyone - but friends and I agree we might not think we're as hot if the media didn't keep going on about it - and on and on and....ad infinitum!!!
Click here http://geology.com/cities-map/montana.shtml (http://geology.com/cities-map/montana.shtml) to see a map of Montana showing three towns mentioned in the book.: Choteau, Valier and Browning. Find Helena, the capital, and go north.
On today's highways/interstates, distances are: Helena to Choteau, 102 miles; Choteau to Valier, 56 miles; Valier to Browning, 43 miles.
I think Gros Ventre and Scotch Heaven are just west of Valier, where - on a detailed National Geographic map, you can see where a river forks to the north and south.
Edit: After I posted this opinion, I read Ivan's notes and found this autobiographical tid-bit: junior year of high school (Valier, Montana; "AhHa", she said gloatingly ;D
BTW, it's 500+ miles across Montana from east to west. Just for fun - try measuring that distance from where you live and see where you end up. For a lot of you - east will be out in the ocean.
For Babi, north might be not far from my town. :D
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Thanks for the detective work, Callie. That's pretty much where I was thinking too, but you got closer.
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Thanks for those insights from Doig's home page, JOAN. They give considerably more personal
info. than the acknowledgments in the back of the book.
I wouldn't say the place was exclusive to Scots, though the name 'Scotch Heaven' certainly
takes a bow to their prevalence. That cattle ranch was there from early on, too. And of
course, the later homesteaders came from everywhere.
Thanks for clarifying the geography on this, CALLIE. I knew vaguely that Helena was in
the southern part of the State and so had an idea these places must be farther North. I
especially like your finding of a river that forks north and south; the perfect location
for our 'Gros Ventre' and Scotch Heaven. And you're quite right. From Houston in the
Southeast, 500 miles north or west won't even get you out of Texas.
I am so much enjoying Doig's bits of humor and original similes. Like, "Rob had hands quick enough to shoe a unicorn." And Doig's wry humor..
Rob: "When do you suppose spring comes to this country?" Angus: "Maybe by the end of summer."
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Callie, super detective work - junior year of high school (Valier, Montana)! And Thank you for the map. It really helps this geographically challenged Easterner. . I see Doig's birthplace, White Sulpher Springs - east of Helena - and the other towns mentioned in the book much more to the north. At the very start of the Scotch Heaven chapter, there's a quote from a newspaper article- The Choteau Quill, dated July 3, 1890:
" word comes of yet another settlement of homesteaders in this burgeoning province of ours...who can doubt that Choteau County is destined go be the most populous in Montana. Of this latest colony, situated into the foothills a dozen or so miles west of Gros Ventre... Gros Ventrians call the elevated new neighborhood Scotch Heaven."
Here's another closer up map of the area - I see Two Medicine Creek too. We stayed in Cut Bank on the way to Glacier National Forest. By the way, did you read of hiker who was mauled by a grizzly in Glacier National Park yesterday? He's alive - in a hospital in Browning this morning.
(http://www.browningmontana.com/images/blackfeetnationmap.gif)
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I guess I'm amazed at the uniformity of the homesteaded townships in the West...all the same size, 36 sq. mi. - no matter how much surrounding land was open:
Each township is six miles square, thus totaling thirty-six square miles, and — attend closely for just a few moments more — it is these townships, wherein the individual homesteader takes up his landholding, that the American penchant for systemization fully flowers. Each square mile, called a section, is numbered, in identical fashion throughout all the townships, thusly:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Land_Act_of_1785_section_numbering.png/350px-Land_Act_of_1785_section_numbering.png)
This "township" method of dividing land according to the boustrophedon grid didn't originate with the Homestead Actbut rather the 1785 Land Ordinance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Ordinance_of_1785) that laid the foundations of land policy until passage of the Homestead Act in 1862. I find this all so fascinating.
Wasn't Angus just so smart to select Section #31? What did you think of Rob's choice? Here's a better picture of the location of the land he chose - some of you have this on the inside cover of your book if you are reading the paper copy, not kindle...
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/scotchheavensm(438x600)%20(350x256).jpg)
click illustration to enlarge (http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/scotchheavenl.jpg)
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I'm always amazed when something reminds me how tiny the eastern states are compared with those west of the Mississippi. 100 miles from my home gets me all the seaboard states from South Carolina to the bottom tip of Maine. West, all of Ohio, a lot of Michigan and Indiana, and part of Kentucky and Tennessee.
One of the bits of humor I particularly liked occurs early in the book, when they are complaining about the ship's food:
"The potatoes aren't so bad, though."
"Man, potatoes are never so bad. That's the principle of potatoes."
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PatH, when my husband was doing graduate work in Missouri there was a family there from eastern Pennsylvania. She asked if we were going home to central Colorado over a long weekend. When i said it would take a day and a half to get there and another day and a half to come back, she exclaimed, "But you only have to go across Kansas!!!"
They had come across 7 states to get to the Kansas City area from Pennsylvania!
Joan, where did you get your diagram of the sections? I've always seen the Section numbers as they are at the beginning of the "Scotch Heaven" chapter.
Click here to see the base lines from which surveys began in Montana. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Meridians-baselines.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Meridians-baselines.png) (Click on Montana to get a closer view)
Townships go North-South from this Base line; Ranges go East West.
Each section is divided into fourths (and each fourth into fourths, etc. - which makes it possible to identify very small tracts of land). So Angus' homestead is in the very bottom left hand corner of the grid shown in the chapter. Rob's is in the top right hand corner of the Section to the right of Angus'.
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More about homestead surveying.
Stakes were placed in the corners of each 160 acre tract. One of them would have the legal description on it. In Oklahoma, the homesteader had to find the stake with the legal description and take it to a Filing Office to register the claim. Most homesteaders placed something on the tract to indicate they were claiming it.
I know that one woman who made the Land Run into the area where I live used an American flag. There's a "legend" that another woman who made the Run took off her red petticoat and put it on her claim stake! (Legend also has it that she rode in on the cowcatcher of a train that was moving very very slowly through the area, jumped off, ran over to stake her claim and ran back just in time to be pulled onto the caboose! So, not only did she display her petticoat in public - she "put on a show" for the other passengers - Shocking!!!!)
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Great stories, Callie! They help us realize these were real people, doing whatever it took to acquire some land..About the boustrophedon - I didn't even notice the difference between the one in Doig's book and the one from this site - the
1785 Land Ordinance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Ordinance_of_1785)
Was there a change in the numbering for the Homestead Act of 1962? If you can click the link, you can see another grid with sections numbered like in the book...
In both grids, Angus selected the bottom corner which was number 31. This was ideal for raising sheep or cattle.- The animals could wander outside his plot to graze. But look at Rob. He chose the highest, lofty plot - planning maybe to put in a reservoir for his band of sheep someday. Angus tells him:
"But we live in the meantime, rather than the sometime."
Everyone comments about the wind up there. I'm wondering if someday Rob will be seen to have made a wise choice...
Nothing is enough for Rob - can anyone remember why he wants to buy even more sheep - borrowing from Lucas? Angus seems to know when to say "no" -
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Looks as if the number sequence pattern changed between 1785 and 1796.
The difference in choice of homesteads is another example of a cautious nature versus an impetuous one. Angus looks at practicalities more than Rob does.
However, Rob realizes that he has a clear route to grazing land up into the mountains, which is free range. Winter's coming, though.
Didn't you love Angus' tale of The Lucas Barclay Matrimonial Bureau? And the story of Methuselah and his cook?
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Callie, I like your land rush stories. I hadn't heard of the stake system before. It's wonderfully sensible. If you've got the stake, you obviously got there before anyone else. I wonder if there were counterfeit stakes?
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Now we seem to be settling down to talking about the story again, though I admit I'm reluctant to cut short this fascinating background stuff.
I heard another version of the Methuselah's cook story over 50 years ago, involving a bunch of male campers. Maybe the story is as old as Methuselah? It's still funny, though.
So Rob marries the first woman he sees who looks at him admiringly and reflects him back at himself. Lucas was right. Is he right about Angus? It's kind of hard looking for a mate in homesteading circumstances. You can count up your choices on your fingers without taking your other hand out of your pocket. Do you settle for the best of what you see, or wait in hopes something better comes along?
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Two more tales and then I agree that we should get back to discussing the story.
Pat, bringing in the stake with the legal description on it was also a way of identifying yourself to the Filing Office.
It wasn't necessary to go to the Filing Office right away. Some homesteaders didn't get there for quite a while because they were too busy getting settled. The first Oklahoma Land Run was in April so there was time to plow enough land to at least plant a garden large enough to sustain the family through the next winter. It would also have been possible to plow enough land to start a cash crop of some kind.
The two filing offices in The Unassigned Lands of Oklahoma worked this way. At a certain time every morning, all the men who were there to file a claim drew numbers for the order in which they could fill out the papers and pay the Filing Fee of $50.00. I don't know how many numbers were included in each day's drawing - but women who had staked a claim had to wait until all the men who had drawn that day's numbers had filed and then they could do so.
Ada Baskins, the woman who staked her claim with a flag, wrote in her diary that she rode horseback almost 20 miles to the Filing Office early one morning and had to wait until after 4:00 p.m. to file her claim.
Earlier, someone asked about a "soddy". In Oklahoma, the prairie was (and is) covered with Buffalo grass, which has very long roots. Settlers discovered that the red clay could be cut and dried into bricks and the long roots of the grass would hold the bricks together until they dried.
Here's a link to a picture of a sod house ("soddy") in Montana in 1884. http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/I?ngp:7:./temp/~ammem_LBVr::displayType=1:m856sd=ndfahult:m856sf=c022:@@@
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It's hard to leave this, isn't it? Callie, have you read "The Jump-off Creek" by Molly Gloss? Based partly on the story of the author's grandmother, it describes the first 2 years in the life of a solo woman homesteading in Oregon in the 1890s. I wouldn't have lasted 2 days in that life.
The geography is as frustrating as it is here. You can get very close to the location, but even with a detailed topo map of Oregon I couldn't quite pin it down.
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Now Angus has become the schoolteacher. I wonder how often the "schoolmaams" were men? It certainly suits him, and he does a good job. The privy incident is hilarious.
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Good morning!
Love the homesteading stories. Makes the whole period come to life. I can't help but think of the advantage of having two strong young men working together - with no children to worry about. Not only that - they were not afraid to work - and could work with their hands. And Uncle Lucas has their back. In no time, they've got prime land, warm, well-made sturdy homes and a promising enterprise raising sheep on the land. Is this area of Montana still known for raising sheep?
Callie, do you think that sod homes were common in Montana back then? I thought the proximity of the cottonwood trees would make such homes unnecessary - as they would be on prairie land.
When the boys first arrived in Gros Ventre, I wondered where a fellow would meet a girl in this place. Yes, there was the calico situation - - and there was Nancy -
Then we found there were already some early settlers in the area later known as Scotch Heaven. Some had daughters - like the Findlaters. The previous schoolmarm - now married. Where will teachers come from? PatH - I guess that a schoolmaster was somewhat of a surprise for these children - unlike in Scotland.. Whose idea was it to choose Angus for the position, do you think? Would the children have been better off with someone who knew something about America - American history?
What would have happened had Angus refused?
PatH - why do you think he did so well? What was the secret of his success?
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Just realizing this section of country is side by side with what became Glacier
National Park gives you some idea of what it was like. Hardy folk, these Scots.
why he wants to buy even more sheep - borrowing from Lucas?
PAT, perhaps you already answered that one when you wrote, "Nothing is enough for Rob.." I think Rob yearns to be a rich man, like those who owned all the land in Scotland.
For all his reliance on Lucas, Rob was getting too close to Nancy. I really
did think he had more sense than that. Angus sees something developing between Rob and Nancy that shocks and alarms him. Strangely enough, he seems more understanding where Nancy is concerned. "Nancy seeing Rob as a younger Lucas. A Lucas fresh and two-handed. Nancy whose life had been to accept what came."[/b]
But Rob, not letting himself see the catastrophe he was headed for. "Rob who could make himself believe water wasn't wet." "I knew better than to try to head Robert Burns Barclay from something he had newly talked himself into. Take and shake Rob until his teeth rattled and
they'd still be castanets of the same tune."
CALLIE, after all these years I'm just now learning this information about the
sod houses. There were grass roots in those sod bricks!
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A link to Cottonwood trees. Paragraph 6 has the most information about using them for building material (love the reason for using them to build barns).
http://www.stoneandcottonwood.com/cottonwoodtreesarticle (http://www.stoneandcottonwood.com/cottonwoodtreesarticle)
Babi, the grass in the sod bricks sometimes led to prairie critters suddenly dropping onto the settler's table! I've also seen pictures of cows grazing on the roof of a soddy that was more like a dug-out.
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Thanks for more on the cottonwood trees, Callie - I don't think the boys would have been happy building their homes of sod. Such craftmanship setting the logs. Rog was a natural at it.
Interestingly - Sunday's Washington Post's Travel Section had a huge spread - photos and maps - of Glacier National Park (http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/glacier-national-park-on-ice/2011/07/28/gIQA5BhTwI_story.html). Cold enough for you? Isn't it funny how these coincidences occur...
I'm thinking that Rob wasn't as interested in Nancy as Angus feared - the slightest distraction -and he was off to the next project. Didn't even need that shaking Angus wanted to give him! PatH said yesterday - Rob married the first woman he sees who looks at him admiringly and reflects him back at himself Marrying Nancy would not reflect well...Rob must be aware of this...
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Love the quoted passages, Babi!
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Good morning, everyone, from cloudy Cape Cod. I've just been reading the last posts, and have read in the book up to page 162.
I'm also enjoying the humor, as when Rob says: why do you suppose they put a river all the way down there? and Angus says: talk to the riverwright about it!
Posting has been difficult, as I've had family here for a while, but today the CA folks are heading out, first to visit my Boston daughter, then home. As an added bonus, a long-lost (out-of-touch) niece also came to visit yesterday, who grew up in Calgary, Canada. The map of Glacier National Park shows Calgary at the top, perhaps 100 miles north of the US border. Who knew?
Thanks to everyone for all the great links!
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Angus summarizes three years in the section beginning "Say you are a stone that blinks once a year. In the wink that is 1891, you...note the retreat of timber on Wolf Butte where Rob and myself and (five others) sawed lodgpole pines to build...houses."
Angus also comments on the first winter: "You might not think it, but with winter we saw more of the other homesteaders than ever...no more than a few weeks ever passed withot Scotch Heaven having a dance that brought out everyone...We of the bachelor brigade were ...busy appreciating that Scotch Heaven's balance sheet of men and women was less uneven that it had been..."
Quite a few single women "came west" on their own - some as schoolteachers, others as "Calico" and some just to visit.
Another treaure of mine is original pages from my grandmother's scrapbook in the 1880's. Included are brief "personals" about her teaching in Iowa, Kansas and Nebraska. One "personal" tells about her and her Mother visiting relatives in Oregon. It says her mother went home but "Miss Maggie will continue her trip to San Francisco to attend the Education Convention and visit (a cousin) there for the balance of the summer."
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Callie, what a treasure trove you have in your grandmother's scrapbooks and writings. It surely makes her come alive for you. How many of you journal? I am 68 yrs old and have seen a lot of history being made. Those of you who are older have seen even more. If we journal, and put down our thoughts and feelings we could make those portions of history come more alive for our grandchildren, great grands and so on. It makes me feel like going back and updating some of the journaling I have done.
I think perhaps Angus was chosen partly because he was always quoting poetry. It made him seem better educated than many of those around him. He really does seem to take to it, doesn't he?
Rob does seem to be a "pie in the sky" kind of guy, doesn't he? He dreams big--sometimes unrealistically so.
PatH, I read the Heart of Horses by Molly Gloss and really enjoyed the book. Thanks for mentioning The Jump Off Creek. Now I have another book on my tbr list.
Sally
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Sally, that grandmother lived in the town where I grew up and died when I was a freshman in college. So I remember her well. Unfortunately, we didn't find all these treasures until the aunt who lived with her died 20 years later. My Dad was also gone - so I didn't have the opportunity to talk to anybody about the items of correspondence, etc.
With the schoolmaster job and having met the teacher at Noon Creek, Angus is beginning to find his own way without Rob's input. This is not going over well with Rob who is used to Angus going along to get along with him, is it?
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Good morning to all the rascals in the room-
I've been looking for the meaning of the title from the start - thought for sure it was an old Scottish air - searched for days. Yesterday I came across a statement made by Ivan Doig - I'll bring the source as soon as I find it again - saying that HE wrote it himself - for this novel. So that settles that - I'll stop hunting for it.
Still wondering whether "rascal fairs" were known in Scotland...Looked up "rascal" - the first definition seems to fit the mood of the Dance, doesn't it?
1. One that is playfully mischievous.
2. An unscrupulous, dishonest person; a scoundrel.
ps - Just found this and have to add it here!
"Rascal Fair" - the hiring market for those who had not obtained a job at the "Muckle Fair".
"Muckle Friday" - the half-annual hiring market for farm workers.
Farming in Scotland (http://www.rampantscotland.com/parliamo/blparliamo_farm.htm)
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Mippy, you are making good progress - even with a house full of company. Your Calgery niece might be interested in this book, living so near to the terrain described.
Lucas Barclay has another niece coming on the scene...You have to wonder how long she's been planning this trip? T'is the season for nieces! :D
"I think perhaps Angus was chosen partly because he was always quoting poetry."
Sally - who do you think selected him? I'm not sure he was quoting his poetry to Nineas Duff, was he? I agree, he was obviously better educated than anyone else around. Just geographically challenged with no US history to teach these kids. Notice him cramming the day before each lesson. More important than anything - he really cares about these kids... One student seems to stand out - I feel that we'll be hearing more about her in the future. How old would you say Miss Susan Duff is? I wonder where these kids will go to school once they have "graduated" from this one room schoolhouse.
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I've seen those pictures, too, CALLIE. I figured that house had to have been built into the
side of hill; surely otherwise that cow would fall through. Talk about a 'critter' landing on
the table!
I don't know, JOAN. I took the whole 'Nancy' thing pretty seriously, as it came close to
altering the road the boys took. Because of this infatuation, Rob changes his mind about homesteading. He wants to give up their dream of homesteading and continue to work in Gros Ventre. He has good explanations for this, of course. Angus should stay, too. The town would need a schoolteacher. And maybe later, when they were established and hand some funds, they could look for homesteads.
Angus finally decides the only thing he can do is leave, but in saying good-bye to Lucas he
unintentionally reveals why. Lucas handles it.
Q.. What do you think of Lucas way of handling this situation?? No direct confrontation. Just clear the temptation out of the way and offer a big, dangling carrot.
CALLIE, I had to smile at one of Doig's comments in his 'Acknowledgments'. He said some of
the poetry was, of course, Robert Burns, some of it was a combo 'Burns-Doig', and some was pure Doig. I did notice one or two that didn't really sound like Burns to me. ;)
I think you're right about Rob expecting Angus to follow where he leads. It's understandable,
I suppose, as they grew up together in that relationship. Good catch, tho', that Rob may be
resenting the 'new' Angus. I hadn't caught that.
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In my hardback copy, the chapter/section "Scotch Heaven" goes from page 88 to page 300.
Is everyone else reading this part more slowly than I am? I don't want to jump ahead with observations.
For instance, hasn't anyone else discovered Rob's plot to get Angus away from Anna?
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My section "Scotch Heaven" goes from 88 to 200, but it covers what you describe, Callie, ending with a wedding. I think maybe we were all starting slowly, in case some people hadn't caught up, and to take things in order. Probably we should move forward.
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Babi - I can't imagine Rob staying on in Gros Ventre - trying to woo Nancy away from Lucas. It didn't take much to get him to give up on her, as soon as Lucas offered to sponsor the boys in their homesteading venture. I wonder if we'll ever see Angus as low as he was - he was ready to set out on his own. Is this how he will react to disappointment in the future, do you think?
As Pat reports, the paperback version has Scotch Heaven pages 89 to 200. That's the longest section we'll be reading/discussing at once. We've got all week for this long chapter. Today is only Tuesday. Babi and I had hoped to discuss the first half of Scotch Heaven - so as not to give away the big developments in the second half right away as people are reading to catch up.
It would help to know who has finished the Scotch Heaven chapter...Two of you are ready to move on - but let's be careful, remembering not to reveal too much until we find out where the others are with their reading -
Did you catch a reason for Rob's disapproval of the new schoolmarm? She seems perfect for Angus - doesn't she? Just what he's been waiting for. Do you believe in love at first sight? What did YOU think of her?
I can't figure out whether Rob knew about Anna Ramsay before he sent for his sister, can you?
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I have finished Scotch Heaven. Have most of you finished this section?
Sally
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Thanks, Sally. What did YOU think of Anna Ramsay? Didn't she seem perfect for Angus - the one he'd been waiting for?
Why didn't Rob like her? Can you tell whether he had already arranged for his sister to come to Montana, hoping for a match? Or did he send for her once he saw Angus and Anna getting closer? Ivan Doig sure knows how to tell the story, doesn't he?
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I've finished the section, too.
Angus certainly falls for Anna instantly. I don't believe in love at first sight. When someone is attracted like Angus is, it's powerful, but it's not love. It can grow into love, but the first look only shows you beauty, mannerisms, maybe that someone looks like your personal ideal. You don't really know anything about what they are really like, whether you can even stand them.
I have trouble figuring Anna out. She is beautiful, smart, and competent, but she keeps her emotions under wraps. She is being very cautious indeed in deciding whether she and Angus would suit each other, unlike Angus, who is sure in the first second (right or wrong).
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Did anyone else find it strange that Angus wasn't the first man Anna had sex with. After all, it was the 1880's and it was shameful for women to even think about sex. For some reason, I didn't quite trust Anna. I think part of the reason Rob didn't approve is because he always had in mind for Angus and Adair to get together.
I think Adair seems gentle and sweet; but it drives me crazy that she always refers to herself in the third person. For instance, she says, "Adair thinks this" and "Adair does that". It really annoys me. I wonder why Doig presented her speech in that manner.
Sally
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Adair's habit of referring to herself in the third person is jarring, isn't it? (And I'm
sure the main reason for Rob's objection to Anna is that he had other plans for
a wife for Angus!)
Anyway, I found this info. about Adair's trait. It's called "illeism". So, does one
of these explain Adair, do you think?
Illeism in everyday speech can have a variety of intentions depending on context. One common usage is to impart humility, a common practice in feudal societies and other societies where honorifics are important to observe ("Your servant awaits your orders"), as well as in master-slave relationships ("This slave needs to be punished"). Recruits in the military are also often made to refer to themselves in the third-person, such as "This soldier" or "This recruit," in order to reduce the sense of individuality and enforce the idea of the group being more important than the self. The use of illeism in this context imparts a sense of lack of self, implying a diminished importance of the speaker in relation to the addressee or to a larger whole.
Conversely, in different contexts, illeism can be used to reinforce self-promotion, as used to sometimes comic effect by Bob Dole throughout his political career.[2] This was particularly made notable during the United States presidential election, 1996 and lampooned broadly in popular media for years afterwards.
Similarly illeism is used with an air of grandeur, to give the speaker lofty airs. Idiosyncratic and conceited people are known to either use or are lampooned as using illeism to puff themselves up or illustrate their egoism. The artist Salvador Dalí used illeism throughout his interview with 60 Minutes's Mike Wallace, punctuating it with "Dalí is immortal and will not die," although this may have been a reference to the legacy of his art rather than his actual self. The wrestler The Rock was notorious for this, mainly to enhance his persona to a superhuman level.
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Did anyone else find it strange that Angus wasn't the first man Anna had sex with.
Sally
Yes, Sally, I wondered about that too. And for that matter, strange that she had sex with Angus when she was still making up her mind. I don't really know what customs were like on the frontier at that time, but it was a pretty risky thing for a woman to do, given lack of contraceptives and notions of women's purity. Angus doesn't seem to find it remarkable, but he's not exactly clear-headed about Anna.
I agree with you about Rob's dislike, and I think also his vanity is hurt by the fact that she's unaffected by his charm.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/dancingattherascalfaircover.jpg) |
Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains.
Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country.
It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble)
"Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/sheep.jpg)
Discussion Schedule:
August 1 ~ 5 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 14 Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
August 15 ~ 21 The Steaders (about 75 pages)
August 22 ~ 31 Two Medicine, 1918, 1919
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
August 15 ~ 21
The Steaders
1. How has his "after-thought wife" fit into Angus' life? Do you think he believes this marriage will cure him of Anna in time?
2. Is Adair adapting to life in Montana? How does she pass her time on the Homestead?
3. Will a visit from the stork(s) settle things once and for all?
3. When did the narrative become addressed to "you"? Is this a sort of diary of Varick's childhood - or a glimpse into the future? Could Adair ever leave Angus and take Varick back to Scotland? Would she leave without him?
4. What were Teddy Roosevelt's actual orders regarding the grazing rights on the free range surrounding the settlement? Has this area always been "free range"?
5. Does Rob believe he has power to resist Ranger Stanley Meissel's plan for grazing allotments? Why has Angus taken the initiative?
6. "Has everyone more than the simple face they show the world?" How would you answer Angus?
7. Why would Anna ask Angus if he has the life he wants to lead? Does he get an answer to his question to her - is he alone in this unled life?
8. How do the new homesteaders differ from those who originally settled in Scotch Heaven? What became of these "Steaders"? Why did Angus agree to the new moneymaking land locator scheme with Rob and Lucas - when he sensed it was morally wrong?
Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act (http://homesteadcongress.blogspot.com/2010/01/all-aboard-homestead-trains-ho.html)
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/grosVentreHistory.php)
Ivan's Notes on his home page (http://www.ivandoig.com/notes.html)
Discussion Leaders: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com ) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Sally, PatH - I too was surprised at first at the fact that Angus was not Anna's first - even more so at the fact that Angus didn't find it remarkable. Could it be that this was NOT the 1880's-but rather the mid-1890's - later referred to as the 'gay nineties'? Does anyone remember where Anna and her family had come from? Anna was educated somewhere else - she'd probably been exposed to the new ideas of Feminism - and sexual freedom, which went hand in hand with a woman's economic freedom.
Here's an article on The New Woman of the 1890's (http://www.library.csi.cuny.edu/dept/history/lavender/386/newwoman.html).
We still don't know how long Rob had hoped to pair his sister with his best friend, do we? He knew Adair's situation in Scotland was precarious. This would solve this worry and also do his friend Angus a favor - as he didn't seem satisfied with any of the young ladies in Scotch Heaven. We can't fault him on this thinking, can we?
He was bound to be unhappy with the sudden appearance of Anna in Angus' life. The question does remain - did Rob quickly send for Adair, after Anna appeared on the scene - hoping she would distract Angus from Anna?
PatH - I'm not so sure that Angus did not fall in love the moment he laid eyes on Anna. Well, all right, that first moment you wouldn't call love. But her face, her demeanor pleased him in a way no other woman ever had - and his feelings only intensified the more he got to know her. Would things have been different had she accepted his proposal right then? I wondered why she wanted him to wait with his proposal until she returned at the end of summer. Was she hoping for a better offer? Didn't Angus question whether that meant that her ardor did not match his?
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Illeism
Babi - I loved hearing there's a name for Adair's trait. At first I thought it was cute - endearing - when she muttered under her breath - "Adair is not to be fretted about." She seems to be saying - "Don't worry about Adair." She knew what she wanted, she could take care of herself.
Maybe it
"reinforced self-promotion." She's is up for the challenge of Anna Ramsay.
That was some scene when she stepped off the train - and Angus realized that he'd been tricked into thinking they were there to pick up an egg-separator. I have to say, I felt sorry for Rob. This was not going as he had hoped. Not only that - Adair was not in love with Montana either. Since she stays on, she must be here because of her feelings for Angus.
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It's something like 1897 when Anna arrives. Angus has had 8 years of not finding a woman he likes. The Ramsays had been in Canada before coming to Montana, but presumably not for very many years, since Anna had taught school in Scotland.
Yes, Joan, Angus definitely fell like a ton of bricks the second he saw Anna. I don't quite want to call something like that "love" until it has had a chance to ripen a bit--be based on more than a moment's impression. By the time Anna left for the summer, they knew more about each other.
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Hi, everyone! I've read ahead, now up to p. 222 in the paperback.
To avoid mentioning any spoilers, I'll be careful what to post.
I wasn't especially surprised that Anna had had experience with men. Going back to colonial times, many cultures in this country did not repress relationships before marriage. And pregnant brides were also common in some cultures. I'm not sure about lowland Scotland, however, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was customary to allow sex before marriage.
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Was that what was called "bundling" in Colonial Days?
I'd wondered about Adair referring to herself in the 3rd person. Interesting information about the possible reason.
When they stop for Adair to find the "airy convenience" on the way back from the rr station, Angus accuses Rob of plotting. Angus: "How long have you had this little visit of Adair's in the works?"
Rob: "Angus, I don't carry a calendar around in my head." Angus: "..no one with your arm load of schemes...would. Just tell me this, you thought it up back this spring before I met Anna, didn't you?" Rob: "Angus, Angus. Which would you rather hear - yes, no or maybe?"
And a bit farther on, after saying he "wouldn't mind" if Angus and Adair worked out, he rather breezily says, "...if you're not the one for Adair, there are other possibilities wearing pants in this world, aren't there? What harm can it do to bring her over for the summer...?"
Rob thinks he can just have an idea, set it in motion and Angus will follow right along. He probably believes everyone else will, too. So - just avoid straight answers with jovial comments that make the other person look like the bad guy if he disagrees. What a manipulator!!!!
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PatH - your post reminded me of the Ramsays - Anna's parents. The whole family, her father, mother and daughter will spend the summer working for Isaac Reese. They are not wealthy people. I'm thinking that their future hinges on their daughter's marrying well.
Remember the uncomfortable meeting when the parents grilled Angus? Although he thought it went well with his entertaining tale of his grandfather - the Ramsays were really interested in his background and education (what do you think he meant when Angus told them he attended a "venture" school in Nethermuir?)
Do you think that Anna was aware of her parents' views and that this might have been the reason she told Angus to hold the marriage proposal until she returned? If Anna is hoping for a better offer during the summer, then I have no respect for her.
Mippy, pre-marital sex might have been accepted at this time - with your intended. BUT consider Anna's behavior - with Isaac Reese! How many times is such behavior consider "acceptable." Is this what happened with others before Angus?
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OK, Callie. Rob is a manipulator... but perhaps a manipulator with good intentions?
It's important for Angus to know if Rob thought of bringing Adair to Montana- "back this spring before he met Anna?" Do you see that to be the case - or did he decide to bring her over after he saw that Angus was falling hard for Anna - and that Anna would be away for the summer?
This trip has been pretty rough on Adair, hasn't it? The sea voyage across the Atlantic - and then the train ride across the continent, and finally, making her way through the wilderness - and Indian territory. We're seeing more familiar place names now - like Browning, Montana...Two Medicine River. Have we ever talked about the meaning of Two Medicine country? Or Lucas' Medicine Lodge?
"These Blackfeet put their medicine lodge near. Two times. The river got its name."
Can anyone find the meaning of the Blackfeet's medicine lodge?
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This is a link to information about the Blackfeet culture and traditions.
http://www.trailtribes.org/greatfalls/all-my-relations.htm
Scroll down to the section on "Sweat Lodge". Wikipedia lists this as another name for Medicine Lodge and sites for other tribes also use the two interchangeably.
Joan, I don't think Rob has a clue. He simply thinks any idea of his is good - and that makes it right. When someone challenges him (as Angus did about the timing of his decision to bring Adair to Montana), he simply evades giving a straight answer. (My wise Aunt Esther always said "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." :))
I think he probably manipulated Adair into coming.
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Anna is definitely a cool one. She is almost masculine in her ability to
separate her emotions from sexual activity. She can enjoy the latter without
being emotionally committed. I am surprised that in such a small community,
her neighbors seem unaware. Such behavior is likely accepted between two
betrothed, but Anna's behavior would generally cause a woman to be ostracized...not to mention, unmarriageable.
Rob was certainly capable of adjusting his goals if necessary. Witness the
episode about Nancy.
"Somewhere in his mind Rob had to adjust about Nancy. But with her absent to Toussaint's household and Lucas's offer laying like money to be picked up, you
could all but hear Rob click with adjustment." With Adair, tho', he had taken on a responsibility for her welfare and a husband was definitely on his agenda. He wasn't about to give up easily on that one.
As for Adair, JOAN said it perfectly, I think. She knew what she wanted, she could take care of herself
.
Manipulator? I think Rob definitely tries to be, CALLIE. I suspect he has yet
to understand that Angus is his own man, despite the close bond between them.
Look at how these two pick out their homesteads. Angus, practical and sensible.
Rob yearning for higher ground and grand views, with plans to supply the more
practical needs of his homestead in other ways. Rob assures Angus the possible
shortcomings of his site "won't make the difference", in what Angus describes
as his "Barclay future-owning style".
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When Anna meets Angus, the Ramsays are already beholden to Isaac Reese. He helped them finance their claim. Now they are all going to work for him in the summer, and Anna remarks that having 3 salaries at once might finally let them catch up. Reese is a real achiever, having come from nothing a few years ago to his thriving business. Marrying him would certainly make financial sense. Was Anna already thinking of this? Were her parents hinting it and Anna reluctant? And what were her final motives in accepting him? She explains herself at length to Angus, convincing him that she has genuinely found that Isaac is the one she loves, and of course this has been cemented by a summer of passionate sex. But I don't feel I know at all what Anna is really like.
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Callie, thank you! I've just read the article on "Sweat Lodges" - which were also Medicine Lodges? Fascinating reading - though still not entirely clear about the "Two Medicine County" designation. I'm gathering the Blackfeet had two such lodges next to one another in this area - near this river which bears the same name today?
From this article:
"The sweat lodge is one of the gifts that Creator gave to the Blackfeet
Once inside, it is dark, but safe. Participants pray to Creator and Mother Earth to take pity on them, their children. The head lodgeman sits in the west direction and splashes the hot rocks in the center of the lodge with medicine water. After four rounds of singing and being purified from Creator's breath with the steam from the holy rocks, all negative toxins from the person's body and spirit have been taken by Mother Earth. Crawling out of the lodge the sweaty and red with life people, are now rejuvenated. Their spirits and bodies have been cleansed.
Traditionally, the Blackfeet religion did not allow women to participate in sweat lodges. Today, many lodges are open to any who choose this path"
I can understand why Lucas' bar has been named "Medicine Lodge" ;) Come to think of it, I haven't seen any women among the clientele in Lucas' place either - have you?
I love the way Doig inserts a history lesson into the intriguing story - telling how the handful of Blackfeet got into it with Lewis and Clark - and from then on the land was no longer Blackfeet domain. Was that all there was to the story? Does anyone know? Adair wasn't too impressed with the story - or with Montana, for that matter..
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Babi - I wonder if Rob wasn't on to Anna. He is not happy at the growing attraction between his buddy and this girl. Tells Angus she's "snotty." Does he know something else about her that he's not telling him?
PatH, I don't feel I know Anna either. I think you're right - most likely there was pressure coming from her family for Anna to attempt to interest Isaac into marriage. I know one thing. From her actions, she lacks the integrity and the forthrightedness that Angus has. , she lacks the integrity and the forthrightedness that Angus has. Weren't you absolutely floored when she tells Angus - "if I ever see that Isaac and I are not right for each other, I'll know who to turn for better" ? To give her the benefit of the doubt - she said this to Angus BEFORE he married Adair. Maybe she did feel differently about what she said - as time passed, but kept it to herself because he was married?
Still, what kind of a comment was that for her to make to the obviously devastated Angus? Was she attempting to make him feel better? Or keep him hoping? I think he is well rid of her...
Babi points out that Rob had to adjust his thinking about Nancy. Now it's Angus' turn to adjust his thinking about Anna. Does he have any choice?
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Have to watch what I say since I've read far into next weeks selection and show no signs of stopping! This story won't let one go.
Isn't it a bit odd that 3, yes - 3, schoolteachers have ended up in this remote part of the country?
I couldn't "cotton on" to Anna - she seemed rather calculating - and poor Adair - I can't help but feel sorry for her even if she's pretty self-referential with that use of the 1st person sing. to refer to herself. Haven't we, as parents, used the 1st person plural to exert authority - in such as "we do not play in the street"? Adair has been hauled across the ocean and most of a huge continent to a place that seems to intimidate her with the prospect of marrying a man who doesn't really love her.
I try to get my mind around the idea of 2 men managing huge flocks of sheep - thousands even!! Even with extra help how do they manage to shear all that wool? They don't mention (at least I didn't notice) the special sheepdogs that help control the flocks!
I've been to Montana and it is impressive. Truly "big sky country". My far-back relative John Bozeman (bit of a "black sheep" of the family since he deserted his wife & 3 children in Alabama to join the gold rush) , a handsome rascal - there's a picture of him on one of the Montana sites- he founded Bozeman, Montana and established the Bozeman Trail used by many of the early settlers. The following article doesn't mention Jim Bridger who probably did most of the work on the trail - that's too bad.
http://www.distinctlymontana.com/article/john-bozemans-historic-highway
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Goodness, JoanR, can you get any kudos in Montana for your connection?
I don't recall any mention of dogs anywhere, but they did hire teams of shearers. I wonder about the inevitable traffic jam of everyone wanting shearers at the same time, but that isn't mentioned.
You're right about the book not letting you go. I've read way ahead too.
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But I don't feel I know at all what Anna is really like. I can relate to that,
PAT. Anna is something of a mystery; it's hard to know what to think of her.
JOANP raises a possibility I hadn't thought of. Rob probably did have a
clearer picture of Anna than Angus. I may have been doing him a slight injustice,
but I don't doubt he would attempted to interfere in any case. After all, he
had brought his sister all the way from Scotland hopeful of winning Angus as
her husband.
Actually, even knowing Angus is enraptured with Anna did not keep her from
agreeing to marry him. I suspect she has loved Angus since childhood, and she
is a strong enough character to be willing to take the bad with the good.
A dog is mentioned, JOANR, tho' I'm not certain when it first appeared. And
teams of shearers can handle amazing numbers of sheep. I'm sure any of our
friends from Australia and New Zealand could testify to that.
[ The scenery is magnificent. Of course, the weather can be terrifying!
Frost in August! It's a good thing these two haven't immigrated from a warm
climate. Personally, I can see right now I'd never survive a Montana mountain
winter. I have a quote from Chas. Campbell Doig: "Scotchmen and coyotes are ones that could live in the Basin, and pretty damn soon the coyotes
starved out."
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From a 21st century perspective, I find Angus and Rob's traveling the distance from Scotland to Montana without notifying Lucas they were coming reckless. Particularly, when we are accustomed to call, as a common courtesy, before visiting a friend or neighbor living in the same city. However, histories tell of many who have traveled long distances not knowing what was on the other end.
Many have mentioned the delightful humor Doig has injected into the story through the thoughts of Angus. I especially like the comparisons between Montana and Scotland. I come from a relatively small state, but have traveled to all 50 states and loved every one. My first impression of Montana was on a bus trip. As we crossed the state line from North Dakota which happened to be somewhat cloudy that day the sun came out and it was as if the sky opened up. For miles and miles all we could see was blue sky. No wonder they call it "Big Sky Country."
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Dean69 - you just said it - BIG SKY COUNTRY - Montana is BIG - something beyond Rob and Angus' ability to imagine. And so much of it unexplored and unsettled.
You've pointed out that the boys were behaving reckless - coming unannounced from Scotland - from the 21st century perspective.
From the 19th century perspective, I'd say they were more naive than recklless. The family had been receiving checks from Lucas in Montana. Though they had no return address on them, they had heard he was in Helena. So, they couldn't write to let him know they were coming - and never dreamed he'd be so hard to locate. They got jobs in Helena and from there continued their search for Uncle Lucas. It wasn't until the next Christmas that the family in Scotland received some money from him - with the postmark in Gros Ventre.
Do you think they should have written to him there? Did Gros Ventre even have a post office back then? The boys were already so near in Helena (so they thought) - they'd just drop in and surprise their wealthy uncle...
The humor you refer to is so dry and often unexpected, isn't it? I was just rereading the paragraphs following Anna's rejection of Angus' proposal - and his reaction. It made me think Doig was as much a master of describing other emotions - angst and depression, as he was humor and jubilation.
Losing Anna was one thing...but marrying Adair within a month of the rejection, was really difficult to understand, wasn't it? Angus usually thinks things out before making such decisions. He really needed more time to come to terms with his loss.
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JoanR - I've been walking through my morning chores, thinking of Angus and Rob and those thousands of sheep - they must have had dogs, don't you think? Maybe that just goes without saying. Babi - you remember a dog? Maybe I don't remember them - unless they have names! :D
But with so many sheep, wouldn't they need some ranch hands? I read on one of his Biography pages, that Doig had been a ranch hand himself. He must have been aware of their importance. Did Rob and Angus have money to pay for ranchhands? They are never mentioned. Are we left with the impression that they worked tirelessly - without help? And while Angus was away in the schoolhouse during the week, Rob was tending all those sheep himself? They expected some of their profits from the wool - surely they needed to hire shearers as so many sheep would overwhelm.
Wow! A black sheep in the family, JoanR! He founded Bozeman Montana! Did anyone else in your family follow out to Big Sky country after hearing reports from Jim? Can anyone top this - in degrees of separation!
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Babi, PatH - JoanR - Anna remains a mystery - none of us are able to "cotton pn" to her, as JoanR put it. If you've finished the book, please don't let on - BUT I'm hoping Doig will help us understand her better before the story ends. If not, we'll have to read the sequel, I guess. :D
Did you see her - with Isaac - crash the wedding? All I could think of was that she hadn't explained her relationship with Angus to Isaac, who thought nothing of dropping in to the wedding in Scotch Heaven with his own new bride.
How about Adair? Did you understand her any better than Anna?
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Right after the "pair-shearing", there's a section describing the regular shearing. "Most often I (Angus) was gate man...Behind me, Rob and Allan Frew customarily were the wranglers...The hired crew of shearers who traveled from job to job...Then on the other side of the shearing crew...Archie Findlater...Donald Erskine...Ninian Duff..."
Sounds as if the all the sheepmen, plus a hired crew, worked their way around the ranches getting everyone's sheep sheared in turn.
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I never thought of Isaac and Anna 'crashing' the wedding, JOAN. In those small
communities I expect everyone was 'invited' to anything that was happening.
Actually, the deliberate omission of Isaac and Anna would have raised eyebrows
and caused endless gossip and speculation..and hard feelings.
I do feel that I understand Adair somewhat better than Anna. Both are strong
characters, but I'm more confidant of Adair's sense of integrity. Adair fully
understood what she was getting in that marriage, and I believe she hopes that
over the years Angus will come to love the woman who is there with him day by day.
Quite right, CALLIE. Everybody pitches in for the big jobs...like the more
familiar 'barn-raising'. I always enjoyed seeing one of those when they appeared
in a movie of settlers and homesteading. There was always such a feeling of
camaraderie ad friendship.
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I'm wondering whether the other sheep ranches in Scotch Heaven had as many of the woolies as Rob and Angus - and Lucas? Rob always wanted more - Lucas wasn't much help out there, with his business in Gros Ventre. It seems an awful lot of work would fall on Rob since Angus had his days filled with the school house. Maybe I'm too hard on Rob, but I can't see him doing all of that work by himself, can you? For the "big jobs", like the shearing, I can see everyone pitching in - but aside from that, they must have had others tending the sheep on a daily basis, don't you think? Where did they keep these sheep when they weren't out in the summer grazing land? Maybe they don't require as much work when they aren't roaming and grazing?
I remember a trip to Ireland - on my list not to miss was the famous lamb stew. The first day we took a bus tour in the Irish countryside...it was "lambing" time. Took so many pictures of the cutest little newborn lambs you'll ever see.
That night - and for the rest of the trip, I lost my appetite for lamb stew...
Babi - if in Anna's shoes, knowing how hard Angus took my rejection the month before, you couldn't pay me to go to that wedding on new husband's arm. I would have had the most severe migraine headache ever -
To me, it felt as if she "crashed" the wedding - just to get a look at the woman Angus married so shortly after professing his love for me. There goes her promise to Angus to let him know if she wasn't happy with Isaac.."if ever I see that Isaac and I are not right for each other, I'll know where to turn for better."
Wasn't that the most painful turn-down ever? Now what is he supposed to do? Wait? Wait for her to come to her senses? And for how long? I guess she thought she was being kind...
I've got to reread the passage on exactly what Angus said to her that day - and try to figure out who convinced him to hurry up and marry Adair. Was it Angus' idea - or Rob's?.
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So, was it Lucas? He tells Angus he will mend. Angus looks at Lucas' hands and thinks that even Lucas cannot understand the full sum of the damage that he feels. Rob is less sympathetic than Lucas. Tells Angus Anna is not the only woman in the world...and three days later, Angus asks Adair to marry him. Adair knows about Anna - I guess everyone did - it was no secret. Adair is sorry for him. "She did not know, could not know how thoroughly the love-spell for Anna still gripped me. The bargain we needed to make could not withstand full truth."
Adair doesn't want to return to Scotland. "Adair will marry you many times over." Do you think she loves Angus?
"Lucas was eying me in a diagnosing way. And so he knew, knew for certain that my tongue had just vowed for one woman but my thoughts still chose another."
Do you wonder how Doig writes so knowingly of what Angus is going through?
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Joan, I didn't think about the so useful, ever available headache. That would have
served nicely..tho' I doubt all of the communities ladies would have been deceived.
It was Angus' idea to promptly propose to Adair. It was impulsive and, I believe,
born of his pain and wish to put that loss behind him. There was no reason, now, not to meet Adair's hopes and Rob's expectations. Not a lot of thought there and way too much emotion.
Yes, definitely, Adair loved Angus; had since she was a child. She has come so far
expecting to marry him; she doesn't want to go back, despite her discomfort with
Montana's huge spaces and looming mountains. She would willingly marry him "many times over". They both realize they are striking a bargain.
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Three days after the turn-down, Angus proposed to Adair! He'd barely time to sober up! He's hurt beyond belief! Everyone seems to know about it. Lucas, Rob... Adair too. I'm wondering why no one counselled him to wait. Everyone is in shock - especially Adair. Doig did a masterful job of describing the wedding ceremony, didn't he?
"...Dair looked as if I'd taken every bit of breath from her, she looked as if she'd heard a wild rumor come true."
Babi, you have said before that you think she was in love with him. How old was she when the boys left Scotland? I thought she was twelve. Just a kid. A crush maybe, but love?. What about Angus? Had he ever felt anything for Adair? You know what - I don't think they ever even kissed until the minister told them to, after pronouncing them man and wife... And all the while, Angus is hoping Anna will come...
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Have you given much thought to the title of the book - we keep hearing the song...interwoven with names whenever there is a celebration - or a change.
The most jubilant time - when Anna first visits the schoolhouse and dances with Angus -
Dancing at the rascal fair,
moon and star, fire and air,
choose your mate and make a pair,
dancing at the rascal fair.
The wind and the wind and the wind blows high,
the rain comes scattering through the sky,
He is handsome, she is pretty,
boy and girl of the golden city.
Anna Ramsay says she'll die
if her lover says goodbye -
A bottle of wine to tell his name-
Angus McAsker, there's his fame.
Do you remember the definition of the term "Rascal Fair" found earlier?
Rascal Fair" - the hiring market for those who had not obtained a job at the "Muckle Fair".
"Muckle Friday" - the half-annual hiring market for farm workers.
Farming in Scotland (http://www.rampantscotland.com/parliamo/blparliamo_farm.htm)
So, the Rascal Fair was for the leftovers then, those not chosen at the Muckle Fair. And now the words of the song change.
"Angus McCaskill, he was there,
paired with a lass named Adair,
dancing at the rascal fair.
Feel the Love;s music everywhere,
fill your heart, fill the air,
dancing at the rascal fair.
I'm still wondering, this late in the game, whether Angus and Adair will find one another, will have a happy ending. Has Ivan Doig written a love story - or a story of the struggle to make a life in the wilderness of Montana?
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I was hunting around for some information on raising sheep in Montana today - came across this picture - and just had to share it with you. Doesn't it match how you picture the summer grazing while reading this book?
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/429473524_52732542f3_m.jpg)
If you click this link, you might be able to see the larger image - http://www.flickr.com/photos/baalands/429473524/
If you click this photo again, it gets even larger!
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Good Monday morning!
Week three! Since the next section, The Steaders, is only 75 pages, we've adjusted, shortened the discussion of this chapter from today to the 20th. Then we can spend the final days on the last two chapters - and general thoughts about Ivan Doig's book. I was reading last night how surprised he was at the response to this book - much greater than to his earlier ones. I think he touched a very sensitive chord in this one. Does one ever get over a first love, such as what Angus felt for Anna? I think he really wanted to - to move on - when he married Adair, believing that this was the way to get on with his life.
Was he wrong to think that marriage to Adair would be the answer? What do you think he should have done.
Today we get a glimpse into the life of these two - out there on the homestead. Do you feel Adair's loneliness? Does she have any friends that you can see?
Adair and Angus have a "truce" we are told. Would you say they are friends?
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Well, yes, JOANP, Adair was twelve when the boys left, so I guess her feelings
for Angus would be more of a 'crush'. But she is a determined young woman,
isn't she? I don't doubt Angus was fond of Adair. I can only suppose he felt
he might as well do as Rob and Adair wished; that his own hopes in life were
crushed. He does not deceive himself, or attempt to deceive Adair, about his
feelings for Anna. He is a man of integrity, if anything.
I'm so glad you found that definition of 'rascal fair'. I looked but was
unsuccessful. I loved that version you posted for us. It's obviously a lively
tune, and the words were changed to fit any occasion.
What do you all think of Angus (Doig's) observation that time? Was that first winter long? "Yes, ungodly so. And no, nothing of the sort. How time can be a commodity that lets both of those be equally true, I have never understood."
Had any of you heard of the custom of 'first-foot' on the New Year? It was completely new to me.
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I found myself disgusted with Angus because he stubbornly held on to his inner love for Anna. At first I felt sorry for Adair, then I got aggravated with her for just "tolerating" her life with Angus in Montana. It seemed like she didn't put forth an effort to adapt to the country or lifestyle. But I am a "glass half full" person. My husband was with the Federal Govt. for 20 years and we lived in many places. Though Texas was always in my heart, I found things and people to love everywhere we lived, and I am so glad I had that experience.
Sally
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Oh Sally. Can't you put yourself in Adair's place? She has to know that Angus is not really there. She's out there on the homestead for hours alone while Angus is at the schoolhouse or with the sheep. And then at night - well, they're on two different sleep schedules. What do you think she should have done? Dare Adair ask him what is consuming him? What if he answered her question? Then what?
You were fortunate to have the ability to adapt to new surroundings. Adair seems to have no idea where to start.
Angus seems resigned to the fact that he will never get over Anna. He refers to her as his "own solitary preoccupation."
I'm torn between thinking that he ought to have "let it go" - as you do -
Babi - he doesn't actually deceive Adair - but he doesn't seem to make an effort to stop thinking about Anna.
But other times I feel sorry for him - he's not really living a full life - just a life that might-have-been.
Do you find yourself wonderiing what inspired Doig to write of this tortuous love?
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Adair's refusal to make an effort to adapt to Montana is frustrating, SALLY.
Perhaps it is her personal assertion that she will only go so far in taking
'second place'. She clings to her identity as an individual. She loves Angus,
but she will not throw herself away for him.
Nights, JOAN, seem to be only time Adair and Angus are truly together and
both getting some good out of their relationship. There are other benefits, of
course. He does not have to face another lonely winter; she has a home and a
husband who at least cares something for her and respects her.
I know it seems far-fetched that Angus can't seem to grow beyond this
obsession with Anna. I know there are species that mate for life, but the human
species hasn't shown itself to be one of them. It makes Angus hard for us to understand.
The years are flicking past, and Angus(Doig) gives us a nutshell version of
what life is like on a sheep-raising homestead. "...tasks hurrying at each
other's heels:turn out the last bunch of ewes and their fresh lambs onto new
pasture and the garden needs to be put in; do that and fence needs mending;
mend that and it is shearing time; shear the beloved woolies and it is haying time."
Time is flicking past; where is everyone? We miss your ideas and input.
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Do you think things would have been different if Anna and Isaac were not attending the dances in the Scotch Heaven schoolroom. Angus hadn't laid eyes on Anna since the wedding - but as soon as she started coming to the dances, he could not forget.
Don't you feel a bit sorry for him? He says, "I am not inviting any of this, Dair. I didn't invite any of it." Can you believe this?
He says he couldn't not have have come to the dances - Adair wouldn't that stood for that. "To her, the dances were the one time that Montana winter wasn't Montana winter." She became a different person on that dance floor. -Why do you think that was?
Also, - "it was becoming more and more noticeable that she never pitched in with the other wives when they put midnight supper together." I'm sure you would have noticed, Sally This is no way to make friends in Scotch Heaven.
I never thought I'd hear myself say this - but there seems to be only one thing that can keep this marriage together - and that's a child. With repeated miscarriages, even that doesn't seem to be in the cards. Do you see her staying on in Scotch Heaven without friends, without family?
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I have read & loved all but 2 (I'm saving them for savoring later) of Doig's books & now I am reading his autobiography. In it i can understand how well he understands raising sheep. He couldn't describe the arduous labor involved without living & absorbing it from childhood. My thinking about Adair is two-sided. I have sympathy for knowing she is second choice but get annoyed because she doesn't try hard enough. My theory is that you play the cards you are dealt & make the best of it. You only get one trip through life so why not do it the best way you can? That could and at times does lead to true happiness. Still I agree that Rob probably pressured her into coming to Montana & that's another hurdle.
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I thought this discussion began on September 1st. I just got the book and will try to catch up. Otherwise, I'll just lurk and read the comments.
Nancy
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Oh Nancy - I don't know why that strikes me so funny! Thought that the reason everyone was lurking lately was because they'd already finished the book and didn't want to give away the ending.
We'll need all of our lurkers to come out and help us out. Things have become uncomfortably quiet in here.
Marlo, I know what you are saying. Still, I don't know how I'd react if I knew my husband was thinking of another woman - for years and years. I might react as Adair did - and turn to a few games of Solitaire. At least she's not having affairs...
I am interested in hearing more about Ivan Doig's autobiography. As you say, he couldn't write about raising sheep with such authenticity without having the experience himself. I've been wondering about the way he describes Angus' continuing enthrallment with Anna....so convincingly. I guess he doesn't refer to that in his autobiography - but would love to know if he says anything about this "romance." I feel sorry for Adair - it has soured her life. But I also pity Angus - and his "unled life." Such a waste.
Do you suppose Anna is as unhappy as these two?
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Someone suggested that Adair might leave.
How would she pay for a trip back to Scotland? She has only seen the part of Montana between the rr station and Gros Ventre/Scotch Heaven and may not have even met anyone from other towns.
Where would she go and what could she do when she got there?
Re: loneliness for the 'Steaders.
The local Historical Society has "'89er files" that contain letters, diaries and accounts from people who made the Land Run in April, 1889. One letter from Mrs. Ed Childers to her Aunt's family in, I think, Missouri - written on May 11, 1889, says:
"Your letters are so welcome. The nearest post office is 16 miles from here and that is Oklahoma City. Ed has gone to the city today for mail but I don't expect he will get back tonight and I will have to stay by myself. I am lonesome, awful lonesome. No church or any place to go and no one to come here. (This was only a month after the Run; churches and schools had been built by that Autumn so this part probably changed.)
I tell you girls, if you want to know how you feel when you are lonesome, you must move away from your friends to a new country and be by yourself nearly all day. It seems to me sometimes as if there were no one in the whole world that cared anything about me and I just couldn't stand it any longer."
Can you imagine how Adair must have felt being clear across the ocean and half a continent away from her home? While it took weeks for letters to go back and forth from Missouri and Oklahoma, it must have taken months for them to go and come from Scotland.
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Good morning, all! Sorry to be here so seldom, but Aug is a difficult month, with family visiting and lots of time outdoors here on lovely Cape Cod.
I've read ahead, so I'll be very careful not to let spoilers slip in.
Here's a link about wildlife and bears in Montana:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/science/16grizzly.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/science/16grizzly.html?_r=1)
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I really think those dances were both a much-needed change from the harsh
routines of winter, and also a time when Adair could feel like a carefree young
girl once again..for a while.
MARLOH, welcome. I think you'll find Callie's post interesting, with the excerpt
from an early pioneer woman in Oklahoma. Adair at least had her brother's place
within sight, and the dances to get away to. I really think she is coping as best
she can just now.
And a good morning to you, Mippy. I think there were bears higher up on the
mountains round about. And of course, coyotes in abundance!
Let's see, which of you is it that was concerned that Rob was doing more than
his share of sheep-tending? You'll recall, it was Rob, with Lucas backing, who
wanted to run a larger herd of sheep. Angus declined. Remember: "Angus, you're
thinking small instead of tall. I'm disappointed in you."
Rob always thinks big,and Lucas is from the same Barclay cloth. Angus is unmoved. "Rob, if this is the first time or the last that I disppointed you, you're lucky indeed."
;)
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/dancingattherascalfaircover.jpg) |
Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains.
Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country.
It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble)
"Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/sheep.jpg)
Discussion Schedule:
August 1 ~ 5 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 14 Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
August 15 ~ 21 The Steaders (about 75 pages)
August 22 ~ 31 Two Medicine, 1918, 1919
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
August 22 ~ 31
Two Medicine
1. Why does Angus say that the band of sheep grazing on the rented Blackfeet reservation land was for Varick's benefit "in the eventual"? Why is Rob helping with the shearing up there?
2. Did Anna come up there with her children because she knew Angus would be there, or in spite of it? When she agreed to see the dawn with Angus, was she agreeing to something more?
3. Why did Rob bring Varick into the equation? Do you think he came to regret his action?
4. "They look at us, our fleeceless sons, and wonder how we ever grew such awful coats of complication." A parallel between Varick and those vulnerable sheep. How did the teen-aged Varick respond to Uncle Rob's report?
5. What was Lucas thinking when he made that will? Do you think he achieved what he wanted for each of his "heirs"?
6. As remote as it seems, the world seems to find its way into Scotch Heaven and the lives of its inhabitants. Somewhere Professor Doig asks the question, "Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?" What do you think?
Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act (http://homesteadcongress.blogspot.com/2010/01/all-aboard-homestead-trains-ho.html)
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/grosVentreHistory.php)
Ivan's Notes on his home page (http://www.ivandoig.com/notes.html)
Discussion Leaders: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com ) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Mrs. Childers' letter refers to the loneliness all of these ladies must have felt. that loneliness - I'll bet she would have looked forward to these dances in Scotch Heaven, Callie.
I wonder how many are aware of the tension when Anna and Isaac come to these dances - surely Angus feels it. Adair must be aware of his discomfort too. don't you think? I'm not so sure Adair feels carefree, Babi - but she doesn't want to take her place with the ladies serving the midnight meal. She doesn't appear to even want to be one of them.
And yet she had to have been lonely. She's determined to stay on that dance floor. Maybe she was afraid to leave Angus with Anna...
Callie, in the beginning, wasn't Adair going home - before Angus proposed to her? I'll bet Lucas or Rob would have paid for her passage back to Scotland if she had asked them - to put her out of her misery. And she certainly does not feel at home in Montana. Isn't it always in the back of her mind that life in Scotland, no matter how difficult, would be better than the life she has here? So what kept her? Are we to conclude that it was Angus who was determined to make their baby - and that it was his determination that worked? That was the second time he took things into his own hands.
I loved the way he stood up to her refusal to get on the horse. He wouldn't take her "no" for an answer - just plopped her on Scorpion and off she went.
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Some of you have made it clear that you are more interested in the historical context than in these love relationships. I can see where you would get tired of Angus' ongoing infatuation with Anna. I feel his pain - Why doesn't he appreciate what he has? The really sad thing is, he isn't able to let it go. I don't even care about Anna any more. She has settled into her life with her husband and her children. She's left her past behind - I think.
- Doig surely sets his story into the historical context - the past, the Blackfeet - and now the present. We're all aware how near they are to Glacier National Park. In this chapter, Forest Ranger, Stanley Meixel arrives on the scene, posing a threat to the the ranchers of Scotch Heaven. I'm interested to know more about Teddy Roosevelt's actual orders regarding the grazing rights on the free range surrounding the settlement? Did you catch the humor in Doig's question about that land always being "free range"? ;)
Mippy, who likes history, we're looking forward to hearing from you on Teddy Roosevelt's interest in preservation...
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About that free range - if every sheepherder would take his flock there, how do they keep the flocks separate? It would take more than 2 or 3 men to keep a thousand or more animals in one cluster, I would think. And how did they tell one herder's sheep from another?
On our trips to the British Isles, we noticed many flocks of sheep grazing unattended in the hills and fields. Many of them had splashes of color - red, blue green - on their backs. Did that identify ownership - or what?
You're right, I'm afraid, JoanP - I have grown a bit tired of the Anna-Adair thing and am much more interested in how life was carried on in the homesteads. They must have grown much of their food. How could Angus deal with teaching school, tilling his land (I'm sure that tiny Adair didn't push any plow) , tending a thousand or more sheep, caring for his horse and - what about the chickens? Would they have had a cow for milk? I don't remember reading about one although I could have misremembered that!
Perhaps these "steads" weren't largely self-sustaining at all and all supplies would then have come from town. Another time-consuming task since it involved a long wagon ride.
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Oh, the changes that would occur to this land between 1908-1910....Can you imagine Rob's response to the park ranger's statement that the land designated as a national forest would no longer be free range?? The Rob's and the Williams of this world with their hunger for more sheep and more cattle would eventually over-graze and abuse this land if no restrictions were placed on it. They simply couldn't imagine that this vast land could be over used. They wouldn't even think about it until it was too late.
In a way, it kind of reminds me of the problems that we, in TX, are now having with our water supply. I never realized how much I "wasted" until we were asked to curtail our useage. Water is always something I assumed would be there.....
Sally
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Here's a brief link about TR and Conservation. He encouraged a great number of National parks and forests, not only Glacier National. I'll try to look for more detail later, if I can find any:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Theodore_Roosevelt#Conservation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Theodore_Roosevelt#Conservation)
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Adair's hunger for the dance floor can't have been fear of leaving Angus loose,
JOAN. She was dancing with everyone.
I believe it helped Adair to realize that Angus' insistence on her learning
to ride was due to his concern for her. He did care about her; he just couldn't
give her what he had already given to Anna.
With that year, 1893, came the first sobering discovery of a
year that was "the sour kind that we handn't known was in the calendar of
America'. The prices of wool and lambs was dropping and the young men are
still struggling with the debt owed Lucas. So, though unexpected, the wage
Angus earned as a schoolmaster would be useful. But how little he knows about
the history and geography of America. Scotland, now, that's a different matter.
Did you enjoy 'Angus' describing the students of his 'minnow school'. Here Doig
makes it all so real that I have to remind myself that this book is fiction.
Don't you find that this author makes his characters and places come so alive
you come to accept them are real?
If I'm remembering correctly, JOANR, the only crop Angus had..other than
Adair's kitchen garden..was hay. I'm really ignorant about farming. Do you
have to plow and plant hay? Or is it just overgown grass?
In the 'quote' from a Gros Ventre Weekly Gleaner in May of 1909, there is
a line that hints at the sometimes misleading role of business in luring in
settlers. "Nearest us, a Paris of the prairie called Valier already exists on the
maps the irrigation company is providing to hopeful immigrants, and there can even be found in the townsite vicinity occasional buildings which, if rounded up and
bedded down, may constitute some sort of a town eventually."
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Sally, you asked about Rob's response to the park ranger's statement that the land designated as a national forest would no longer be free range. As you in Texas have always assumed water will always be there - Rob, Angus and those in Scotch Heaven can't imagine that this vast land could be over used." I had to smile at their belief in "free range" - assuming it had always been "free." Ask the Blackfeet what they think of free range. I wonder what the Blackfeet thought of restrictions of land use.
JoanR - "About that free range - if every sheepherder would take his flock there, how do they keep the flocks separate? You may have answered your own question about keeping sheep separate - with the different color paint on each band. Right now though, it seems that only Rob and Angus are grazing their sheep there - along with Double W cattle. Isn't that the problem? And don't the number of cattle seem to be growing - outnumbering the sheep? This seems to be a problem in the making - even before the Ranger appears on the scene.
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Mippy - quite an interesting link - and fits in perfectly with what we are reading:
"The history of the Forest Service has been fraught with controversy, as various interests and national values have grappled with the appropriate management of the many resources within the forests. These values and resources include grazing, timber, mining, recreation, wildlife habitat, and wilderness."
I don't think Scotch Heaven has any ground to stand up to TeddyR and the US government -
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/TR-Enviro.JPG/436px-TR-Enviro.JPG)
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BABI - "Don't you find that this author makes his characters and places come so alive
you come to accept them are real?"
Yes, I do. Maybe that's why I can't let go of the characters - and their relationships. They feel so real. I have to keep asking whether Ivan D. is basing them on characters with whom he is quite familiar. And I love the children in Angus' schoolroom too!
- I'm ignorant about farming too. Is Hay just overgown grass? I'm going to guess that hay is overgrown grass. I'm guessing too that the reason Valier is growing is because of irrigation in the area.
Valier - doesn't that sound familiar? Isn't that where Ivan Doig went to high school? Valier survived - possibly due to irrigation. You don't see Gros Ventre on maps any more. Granted, a fictional town - but still, I'll bet we are provided a reason it failed - by the end of the book. Lack of irrigation? We'll see. It has grown to the point that it has a weekly newspaper now...
JoanR, I try to picture Adair - as a real homestead wife - in her garden, milking the cow, cleaning the hen house in-between games of Solitaire - without success. You ask a good question. Are the homesteads self-sufficient? I suppose they could get provisions in Gros Ventre - or exchange products with neighbors.
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Here's an op-ed article by the Governor of Montana, which ties in to the question of the importance of ranchers being self-sufficient:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/opinion/cutting-costs-the-montana-way.html?ref=todayspaper (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/19/opinion/cutting-costs-the-montana-way.html?ref=todayspaper)
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What do you think of this statement? "Straight paths simply are not in people." And this, "Time to be honest, said the thief in the noose."
Hurray for Mr. Schweitzer! Thanks, MIPPY. "For one thing, we challenge every expense. If it isn’t absolutely necessary, we eliminate it." I would definitely
recommend that one to Washington and all the congressional reps.
I am pleased to see evidence that Angus does care for Adair, though he cannot
love her as he loves Anna. When the lamp glass shatters he is frantic to be assured
she is uninjured. Thinking of her vulnerability when he will be away so much, he
insists that she learn to ride a horse. Initially, she resists, and Adair's powers
of resistance are formidable. As Angus writes, he wishes he "knew how to snipper Barclay stubbornness into five-foot chunks to sell as crowbars." All it really takes to persuade her, tho', is hearing that it is his concern for her that makes him insist.
"Dair, I'm afraid for you. I could never stand it if something happened to you
on account of marrying me."
When Adair miscarried, Angus felt that Adair really needed that child to help her
deal with the isolation; that she would be a different, happier woman.
"I had lost my own best self when Anna spurned our life together. How many possibles are in us? How many can we afford to lose?"
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The loss of the child hit both of them hard. The many children they both wanted would have strengthened the marriage a lot.
Each of them married the other as a sort of compromise, to get what they could out of life, when they couldn't have what they really wanted. They weren't lucky, didn't get as much as they hoped, but they didn't get zero either. There was affection, clearly on Angus' side, less clear in Adair. They did eventually have one wonderful child. They got companionship, weren't alone, even if they were always slightly strangers to each other.
And even when their marriage was most remote, they both enjoyed their physical relationship. That part of their marriage was a success.
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What a contrast between Rob and Angus in their reaction to the two big changes: formation of the Forest Reserve and arrival of the new wave of farmer-homesteaders.
Rob is dismayed at the loss of grazing land, which will keep him from increasing his flock. He sees the new settlers as a business opportunity. He can make money by helping them choose their tracts.
Angus doesn't like losing the grazing, but feels conservation is right and important in conserving the land he loves so much. He takes a risk in secretly giving the forest ranger the information he needs to present his case in a way that will be accepted. He is appalled at the idea of helping the naive would-be farmers to settle where there life will be so marginal. He does it anyway, because he needs the money, but can't stick it for long. (He isn't really cheating them, since he's helping them pick the best of their unsatisfactory options, but he can't feel good about it.)
I wonder what it would be like later on to be surrounded by people who could blame their unsatisfactory life on you?
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PatH ~ I agree, the opening of the National Forest hit different people in different ways! Our author masterfully uses this time to contrast Rob and Angus' personalities.
We've seen similar reactions by property owners in the 20th century when states or towns took property by eminent domain. Here's a Wiki link with a review of the constitutional law on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain#United_States
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain#United_States)
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Good morning, Mippy! You've got an early start, today. Good for you!
And thank you for the two articles -
Hope everyone had a chance to read the Montana governor's comments - "Treat your ranchhands with respect." He cut his own salary before he' would cut the ranchhand's. You can bet Doig enjoyed that article. (Were you surprised to learn that Doig lives in Seattle now? Montana winters too much for him - or his wife? ;))
You can understand the shock among the ranchers in Scotch Heaven when it appeared the Ranger, the US government was stepping in to take the grazing land they had always assumed was "free" -
This from the Constitutional Law link provided by Mippy this morning:
"In the early years, unimproved land could be taken without compensation; this practice was accepted because land was so abundant that it could be cheaply replaced."
As far as I can see, Angus was the only one who sat down with Stanley Meixell to try to understand why they had to start conserving - or there would be nothing left. And it was Angus who put two and two together - that the only way the ranchers would understand this concept - if the cattle allotment on the grazing land was cut back considerably - They all knew that Williamson's cattle grazing was getting out of hand.
Would you say that Angus is taking over the leadership role in Scotch Heaven - or are the ranchers unaware of the part he played in getting the acceptance for the ranger's allotment plan?
I'd be interested to know who Vernon Carstensen is - the dedication:
For Vernon Carstensen
Who Saw the Patterns On the Land
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Found out who Vernon Carstensen was - a Professor at the University of Washington - In the back of the book there are notes on Ivan Doig - who holds a Ph. D in history from the University of Washington. Here's Carstensen's paper on Patterns on the American Land (http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/academics/course.offerings/burtchr/sure110/papers/patterns%20on%20the%20american%20land.pdf) - Interesting reading -
If you don't have time - or the inclination to read the whole thing - if you scroll to page 10 you move on from the Land Ordinance of 1785, which provided for the rectangular survey of the public domain - which governed the distribution of a vast territory before it was even occupied. Carstensen writes of intruders, squatters who argued that occupation of the land gave them title to it. Now we know how the ranchers of Scotch Heaven reacted when the US government stepped in and told them otherwise.
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PatH - it seems we are seeing a pattern, doesn't it? Angus takes the high road - doing what is right, even when he stands to lose. Rob always with his eye on personal profit -
This becomes really clear as you pointed out - in their reaction to the proposal for the forest reserve and then again in the land-locator scheme with the and arrival of the new farmer-homesteaders.
Are they too stereotypical - or do you see Doig blurring the lines a bit, now and then? I'm thinking of the quote Babi brought up yesterday - "Straight paths simply are not in people." Do you see Angus always on the "straight and narrow"?
I'm still thinking of JoanR's question - about farming in this area - and whether the homesteads can be self-sustaining - especially the new Steaders.
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PatH, it is beginning to look to me as tho' Rob looks on most things as a business
opportunity, and thinks Angus is dumb because he doesn't. He seems to have a great
need to be rich, successful. Do you suppose, with his great charm and gifts, he found
his 'inferior' status in Scotland too galling to be borne?
Varick Alexander McCaskill, the answer to prayer, the rescuer of a marriage.
Rob: "You just don't know how lucky you are, Angus." Angus: "I maybe have some
idea of it, Rob."]/i]
Stanley Meixell, the living harbinger of a changing way of life. Fencing in the
mountains? Is it even possible?! "A fence around the mountain, not to control them,
but us. Did we need that? Most, no. But some, yes." The Double W burying the meadows
in cows. Rob with his desire for ever more and more sheep.
I hadn't realized how much we owe to Teddy Roosevelt for protecting the land with
his national forests.
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Whew I have a lot of reading to catch up - started the book back when it was first suggested but only read the first chapter - I have read all the posts -
Notice y'all had a short discussion about growing Hay. Hay is planted from seed - it is a very labor intensive crop - you have to till the soil down to get at and remove the roots of any weeds or invasive grasses or any past grain that may have been planted in a field that had been harvested the year before. Back in this time in history the plows did not dig as deeply so there was a lot of bending to pick out those weeds that the plow did not loosen the root. Then to help protect the hay seed so it will have a chance to crowd out any weed seed that blows into the field during those early days of germination a farmer usually plants some Oats with the Hay seed - Back then I am sure it was like the paintings we have seen of men and women with large aprons held in front of them as they caste seed out with their other hand.
If Hay is harvested with swaths of weeds in it then there is a limit as to what animals can eat the Hay and therefore the value of the hay bail is greatly reduced.
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Hey, Barb! With some words on HAY ;) ~ so would you say it's like grass - not needing much depth of soil? This land really doesn't look good for planting - I'm not sure anyone takes the time or expends the energy weeding either. Of course with the draught, everything is drying up - weeds and all. Poor sheep. Sheep don't eat weeds? I didn't think they were that choosey.
So happy you've joined us. The next chapters are real page-turners. I'm sure you will catch up in no time. You are in for quite a story. Look forward to hearing your take on it.
- "Rob looks on most things as a business
opportunity, and thinks Angus is dumb because he doesn't." Babi Hmm - how would you say Angus regards Rob? And Lucas? Are he and his nephew of the same cloth?
I'm trying to think back to the time the boys left Scotland. Were they both leaving with the same expectation? Wealth from the silver mines - or land?
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Barb, I had no idea it was so much work to grow hay.
JoanP, Patterns on the American Land is a really interesting article. Shows a wry sense of humor, too. I read the whole thing. Angus measures out the sides of claims by counting revolutions of his wagon wheel. Carstenson regards that method as unacceptably sloppy.
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Haven't read enough to get to the war between the cattle and the sheep grazing - but that is an issue - sheep graze to the nub leaving nothing for any animal to graze after they've been let loose on the land - where as cattle graze leaving a layer of grass in evidence - do not yet know the story but as I recall part of the issue of limiting the grazing on Federal Land was due to cattle ranchers making the case and fighting the sheep ranchers because sheep can destroy the land by taking the grass so close that it cannot recover in time before winter and there is risk for flooding and new crevices or creeks forming when the snow melts. Where the land is very rocky - too rocky for either horses or cattle is where most cattle ranchers prefer the sheep to graze.
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Varick is growing up into an interesting youngster. Not his very typical instant hero worship of the big man with the badge. Varick takes to the
Montana homesteading life joyfully, loving all of it. "..he had a capacity for being
just what he was and not caring an inch about other directions of life."
"My son, then, was steadily becoming some self that only he had the chart of." I don't think Angus realizes, but in this his son is like himself. Angus McCaskill
always remained true to himself and what he saw as right.
I have tried, in some part, to excuse Rob's telling Varick about Anna as a brother's desire to protect his sister. But it won't wash. Destroying the relationship between her husband and her son is no help to Adair. I see Rob's
action as his angry response to Angus not following his leadership in all things.
Rob was always the leader...and that's the way he wants it. He has seriously
misunderstood Angus nature and character.
Adair chooses not to make that trip with Angus and Varick to move the new
band of sheep up to the Blackfeet reservation. I wish she had gone, but I can
understand in a way. I can recall a time in my marriage when I could have, and should have, gone somewhere with my husband. But I simply could not rouse myself to make the effort. I know now, looking back, that I was depressed, but I didn't realize that until many years later.
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Well then, Barbara, Double W Williamson will not be happy when he hears the Ranger's plan to limit the number of cattle in the shared summer grazing land - from "hundreds of millions" to a few hundred, will he? We don't hear from him once Stanley has announced his decision? Did he simply leave Scotch Heaven?
PatH - I read more on vernon Carstensen in the back of the novel - in the Acknowledgements - he and Ivan Doig were friends - and talked about the novel all the time as Doig was writing it. He says something about Carstensen being available to talk and answer his questions whenever he was needed.
In case any one missed it - Vernon Carstenson is the one to whom Doig dedicated this book - you can read his article that Pat is referring to - here:
Vernon Carstensen's "Patterns on the American Land" (http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/academics/course.offerings/burtchr/sure110/papers/patterns%20on%20the%20american%20land.pdf)
I'm going to read it again - didn't read it as carefully as Pat did - missed some of the dry humor too --
PatH - I'm sure it was a sloppy measure the boys were using - but they only had limited tools, limited ways to measure the land, didn't they?
I wonder how far off the Steaders' properties were measured. Not only was it "sloppily" measured, but it wasn't very good land at that. What could they do with it? Solid rock beneath, wasn't it? I guess I can understand how Angus got into the land locator business. He's got another mouth to feed now. Amazing what that'll do to ones conscience.
As some of you pointed out - it's not as if he's scamming the Steaders. He just can't convince them that they won't be able to make a living out there.
What do you think - Angus and Adair have the son they prayed for. And Anna has two children of her own. Would you think the situation erased all hope of changing partners once and for all?
Babi tells me that she has lots of notes, and quotable quotes from the Steaders. We'll move on tomorrow to Two Medicine - but please, feel free to refer to anything from the pages before. Oh, and let's tread softly into the final chapters...so much happens. Let's just limit our discussion to the Two Medicine chapters for a few days - until others have indicated they have caught up - especially Barbara.
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still catching up - I see in the book it was wild hay - I have heard how the plains was a sea of grasses with a strong, deep, entangled root system that not only held the earth but choked out invading weeds - with that wind that is described in the book it really must have been a very effective natural protection to keeping pure various swaths of grasses.
On page 45 there was a line I had to stop and read several times it was so beautiful - "I could feel the slowing of the day; a shadowless truce while light speaks to time."
So far I am seeing the two personalities as representing the two kinds of immigrants that settled this nation - the opportunists much like an investor today however, a dreamer - Which reminds me of the Samuel Johnson quote, "The pleasure of expecting enjoyment is often greater than that of obtaining it, and the completion of almost every wish is found a disappointment." and there in lies the impulse to move on the the next dream -
The other, the worker looking for a certain morality and ethic who lives in the now with ties to the arts and recognizes beauty. The saying that the ethical and moral worker reminds me of, that I would like to whisper in Angus's ear is - "Happiness is not something ready made. If your happiness depends on what somebody else does, you have a problem."
I see in both the wonders of character that made this nation and the dark side of each that continues our struggle living and governing this nation. In addition the 'Land' appears to be a character in this story - it is described as if a fashion designer is explaining the lines, workmenship and affect of a new Paris creation - and the temperment of the land is affecting both the dreamer and the worker - almost like the Trinity - God the father the dreamer - Jesus the worker - the Holy Spirit the land.
I must say though, constantly reading how hard the work and how hard they worked - sheesh the old proverb keeps popping into my head - "The tiredness leaves but the profit remains."
And Nancy - the perfect metaphor to how we treated those we made powerless in our quest for greater personal oppontunity... we took and took and kept on taking.
Well, again my thoughts may change as I get deeper into the story - I keep wondering what each of our deviding line is - where is it that we come from our past and where we are embracing a future. Age or not, I think we keep doing this in our lives - in many ways I can see we emigrate from our past and immigrate to our dreamed of future. Is it a morning event - or an event in our lives where there was a large shift --- interesting to contemplate.
Oh yes, one more - I noticed they arrived before Ellis Island was the point of debarkation - this is a nice link the history of how Castle Garden became established as a central point of debarkation. (http://www.tenement.org/encyclopedia/immigration_process.htm#castle)
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BARB, thanks for those comments on the native grass/hay. I didn't understand the
significance of all that until you pointed it out. Isn't nature a constant marvel?! And Doig's
writing has been a constant delight.
Some of my favorites... "..as merry as thick jam on thin bread." And I love the way his earnest desire to be of service to Anna was expressed. "Anything, anything. Wheelbarrowing a mountain from here to there. Putting socks on snakes."
Another delicious line: "You can't but admit that a land of both John Knox and Robert Burns is nimble..." And such great verbal pictures. "..the naked affronted ewe, stark as glass knickers.. "
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I'm confused. Where are we in the book, now? I m beginning 1918. Am I caught up, or ahead????
Sally
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Good morning, Sally. We're down in NC for the next few days, celebrating granddaughter's birthday - her 10th! Where has the time gone. I thought I was able to access the Internet from the motel where we are staying - kept getting frozen at the motel's home page - and no one on duty was able to figure out why. I'm finally on this morning with the help of...well, you don't want to hear all this. I plan to get in later this morning, grandchildren permitting.
In the meantime - Babi will be here with you, I'm sure.
Sally, if you look at the heading, you will see that you are just about right on schedule. Because everyone hasn't finished the book, we're spending the next few days discussing only the first of those three final chapters - "Two Medicine" - so we don't spoil the ending for others.
Still can't figure out Anna - Did she come up there to the remote Indian reservation with her children because she knew Angus would be there, or in spite of it?
Later!
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Joan, Anna was on her way somewhere else, and while the camp was a logical place to
stay overnight, I don't think it was on her direct route. Still, it is reasonable to spend an
evening with company than out on the prairie alone. From my impression of ANNA, tho', I
really think she stopped there because she was curious to see Angus again. She finds that Angus has not changed at all concerning her. He announces himself prepared to trounce anyone dares say a word against her. "You would, too, wouldn't you, Angus. In spite of
everything, you would."
Frankly, the survival of this bond in Angus after all the years puzzles me. I could understand some nostalgia for a youthful love and hope, but now there are years with Adair in the closest of all relationships. Why cannot he value her more?
I had to stop and smile at the quotation Angus' applied to his son; "He'll have misfortunes great and small! He'll be a credit to us all."
We are introduced to Lisabeth. Anna's daughter. She looks like her mother. She weighs matters much as Anna does. Angus: "I watched her go in a gait of grace that was more than a girl's. Lisabeth was, what, fourteen now, and womanhood had its next priestess arriving."
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Finished the book last night so I will hold my comments till we are summing up the entire story...
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I've got a son who lives and works in Central Virginian - his 80 year old office building had to be evacuated this afternoon - mighty tremors. They're not used to earthquakes in this part of the country. Had to shut down two or more power plants nearby.
Another son vacationing on the Outer Banks in North Carolina felt the tremors all the way out there. They are expecting to be evacuated before their week is up as Hurricane Irene aims directly at them.
My family from all over is emailing us here in North Carolina to see if we're all right, We don't know what's going on at home in Arlington. Our house is about a mile from the Pentagon - I hear that the tremors were felt in DC - and that pipes burst and there was quite a bit of flooding and damage there. Don't know what happened to our house...
It seems that when Anna agreed to meet with Angus at dawn, she was telling him that she wanted to talk to him alone - perhaps to continue that conversation they were having at lunch at Valier that day. Funny, it was Rob who discovered them - both times, wasn't it? I guess you can't blame him for thinking they meet on a regular basis. No wonder he got so mad. But why did he have to go and tell Varick about them? Why not talk to Adair if he felt he had to talk to someone.
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Frankly, the survival of this bond in Angus after all the years puzzles me. Babi
Babi - unless one is caught in this mind-set as Angus seems to be, it is bond to be puzzling. I'll bet it puzzles Anna too - and Adair! It is clear by now that he is not going to act on these feelings, so Adair seems to have learned to live with it. She knows he can't help himself. Maybe it's comforting to Anna to - to know that she is still desirable - and has other options in case she tires of life with Isaac. But does she? Isn't it impossible to think of Angus leading another life with Anna? He'd have to leave Scotch Heaven, wouldn't he? Leave Varick and Adair too. I don't think he'd do it - even if Anna turned to him.
I think Doig is writing a story of an atypical attachment - which is not to be understood, but simply to be accepted. I'm so sorry for Angus.
I've made several notes here - on those sheared sheep - "betrayed and dismayed." What an apt description of Varick - after Rob dropped the news on him. Still wondering why Rob fleeced him like that! No feeling for the boy - just wanting to hurt Angus. I don't get that at all.
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What Rob does is unforgiveable. Sure that Angus is betraying Adair, he tells Varick, driving a wedge between father and son. Varick is stunned, judgmental as only the young can be. He will have nothing further to do with his father.
He is going to leave home. He will spend the school year in town and the summers with the forest ranger. Angus knew he meant it. "..you could put collect all the pretense in Varick on an eyelash; he was like Adair in that."
I like Varick so much. His reaction is understandable in one so young, and in so many ways he
shows the best of both Angus and Adair. Doig says it so well. "They look at us, our fleeceless sons ---and for all I knew, daughters..at the precise time when they least know how to give."
And the other result of Rob's action? "In less time than is required to tell it, Rob and I took apart twenty-four years of partnership." And Angus is left bereft. "Varick, Adair, Rob, Anna as ever--each had extracted from my life whatever portions of themselves
it suited them to, and I knew nothing to do but try to trudge along with whatever was left."
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Oh, and BARB, please do continue to comment. If you're concerned about getting too far ahead
simply comment on what you find posted. Personally, I seem to run behind. :P (That's me,
panting to catch up.) :)
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Babi I have an over-all arching concept of the story so that talking about each incident or character without sharing my over all concept is difficult - however, thoughts on Anna -
The way I see it is just because she wants to talk to Angus out of the earshot of her children and the others in camp does not mean anything unless we want it to mean something just as Angus wants it to mean something -
As to why he hung onto Anna - my take is except for the night in the school when they were young all the attachment Angus has is from his imagination or day dreaming - she made her choice - granted without very much explanation why she made her choice -
Angus can imagine all he wants that it was a choice because of her parents or any other reason he fantasizes but she made her choice. After her choice she is not going to cut him off and she knows how he feels and does not want to add to his hurt - How would you handle this sort of situation looking at it from her point of view where they live not far from each other and share a similar profession that will put them in contact with each other.
As to why Angus kept the fantasy alive - I have several ideas - but the big one - she is like the angle on the Christmas tree - we know that if we have an unsatisfactory relationship with a parent as a child we often marry someone similar to that parent to try and fix or get what we didn't from that parent. And finally, the abandonment that goes with loosing parents at a young age.
I think Anna was the emotional pull that was going to fix in Angus the feelings of abandonment he felt not only from his parents who were not there for him when they were wrapped up in their own war and the abandonment he probably never realized was there but he does talk about his one sister who may have been the one he turned to when his mother was emotionally unavailable when she was so wrapped up in fighting her war like marriage.
When we really look at the attachment Angus has with Anna it is mostly his dream of how it will be while he waited that summer and like any dream we have for ourselves about life it stays until we either change our dream or it looses its luster.
As to Adair - she was thrust upon him and he simply turned to her partly knowing it was expected and partly because he was in such pain and marrying Adair would help soothe the pain -
I think he saw Adair as Rob's kid sister - nice but no sparks - however, what I see is, Angus loved Adair as a verb where Anna was someone he was in love with - a one sided emotion that was his dream - it had no legs - no action -
He did not want to hurt Adair and more he was aware from the kiss at his wedding she loved him passionately - Angus was enough of a poet lover of life and a life force to not want to hurt her and to treat with respect that passion. As they marched through life he admired her and was comfortable with her and because of his active verb love to her there was a union in this marriage minus Angus having his dream or life goal met - Adair was not enough like any women in his family to help him either fix his inner pain or to be the surrogate that allowed him to do it again as if he could control things to make it come out differently.
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Aside: we felt the earthquake here at Cape Cod, too. No damage anywhere has been reported in the local paper. Hope all of you are ok!
I've finished the book, so I'm holding back on comments, as spoilers might slip out.
More out-of-town company is coming, so I might be here even less for the next week.
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Interesting in that I found Valier which is also where the author lived as a child - and not too far away there is Choteau - however going west the other names in the book must be fictitious since they do not show up on the map.
This look at the map though can be zoomed in and using the 'little yellow man' you can drive up and down the streets of Valier and then turn west into the Flathead National Forest which is more than likely the memory that Ivan Doig was working with when he described some of the land.
http://tinyurl.com/3d8zf37
I did find Gros Ventre which has also recently been made into a park however, it is located in Wyoming near Jackson Hole.
http://www.free-press.biz/Jackson-Hole-WY/Gros-Ventre-River.html
And this site is precious - if you do not want to read - there is a lot to read - at least scroll and look at these photos - some of the names are so similar to those in our story you have to wonder - there is the log school and the Adair's - just fun to see...
http://www.foresthistory.org/ASPNET/Publications/region/1/flathead/chap11.htm
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Barb, those are great links and so appropriate for this book. I hadn't thought about using Google maps for seeing the area via "street view", even though I've used that many times. I followed my son/family's adventure in New York City along the streets from their hotel - could even look waaay up at the skyscrapers.
Thank you for providing them.
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Oh Mippy, you may not have experienced the earthquake on Cape Cod, but it looks as if Irene means trouble for your area. Are you making preparations to evacuate at all? Stay safe! My son looked forward to his vacation with his family on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. Just arrived there on Sunday. Just this evening there was a Mandatory Evacuation order starting at 8 am tomorrow morning.
Barbara, that's the best, most satisfactory explanation of the so-called relationship between Angus and Anna. Thank you! She was his dream wife, even before Adair arrived in the area - and she continued to be his dream-mate, even after he married Adair. But he never really intended to MAKE the dream come true - as Rob feared. How could he, without hurting those close to him. BUT he does not want to let go of the dream. That's what he's asking Anna - for permission to keep the dream alive.
Babi - it's ironic, isn't it? Rob wanted to hurt Angus. He wanted to drive that wedge between Angus and Varick. And then, with that accomplished - he'd drive the wedge between Angus and Adair too. Is that what he wanted? Rob never uses his head. He may have sent Varick and Adair to live in town while Varick finished high school - but did he achieve a permanent estrangement between father and son?
We'll have to wait until Varick has some experience with life outside of Scoth Heaven to answer that.
Are we ready to move on to the next chapter - "1918"?
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/dancingattherascalfaircover.jpg) |
Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains.
Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country.
It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble)
"Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/sheep.jpg)
Discussion Schedule:
August 1 ~ 5 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 14 Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
August 15 ~ 21 The Steaders (about 75 pages)
August 22 ~ 31 Two Medicine, 1918, 1919
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
August 22 ~ 31
Two Medicine
1. Why does Angus say that the band of sheep grazing on the rented Blackfeet reservation land was for Varick's benefit "in the eventual"? Why is Rob helping with the shearing up there?
2. Did Anna come up there with her children because she knew Angus would be there, or in spite of it? When she agreed to see the dawn with Angus, was she agreeing to something more?
3. Why did Rob bring Varick into the equation? Do you think he came to regret his action?
4. "They look at us, our fleeceless sons, and wonder how we ever grew such awful coats of complication." A parallel between Varick and those vulnerable sheep. How did the teen-aged Varick respond to Uncle Rob's report?
5. What was Lucas thinking when he made that will? Do you think he achieved what he wanted for each of his "heirs"?
6. As remote as it seems, the world seems to find its way into Scotch Heaven and the lives of its inhabitants. Somewhere Professor Doig asks the question, "Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?" What do you think?
1919
7. Do you thnk they would have made it back from Valier with the haywagons plowing through the snow - without Varick?
8. Do Adair and Angus both hold Rob responsible for what happened in the reservoir? What do you think caused the drastic change in Rob's personality toward the end of his life?
9. In the end, as he writes Rob's remembrance , can you understand Angus' mixed feelings for his long time friend? Do you think their differences had always been there, but not noticed?
10. Doig decided to write a Scotch Heaven trilogy? Any idea how he will continue? Will it be Varick's story?
Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act (http://homesteadcongress.blogspot.com/2010/01/all-aboard-homestead-trains-ho.html)
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/grosVentreHistory.php)
Ivan's Notes on his home page (http://www.ivandoig.com/notes.html)
Discussion Leaders: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com ) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
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So many interesting posts, so little time ...
Barb ~ What an excellent link on the history of the National Forest settlements, just what I'd been looking for, but didn't follow up, so saved the link to reread. The name Adair really jumps off the page, doesn't it.
Aside: We aren't considering an evacuation here at Cape Cod. Over our many summers here, there've been so many false alarms. And there's no better place than home with our pup! Not to mention that my son and family from VA are here through Sunday. So we'll stay put. The FL hurricane web site suggests a Mon. strike here.
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Interesting look at the possible psychological roots of Angus obsession with Anna,
BARB. He surely doesn't understand it himself. I noted what he said after Anna told
him she had chosen Isaac. "...even now I could not stop myself from siding with her, defending her against myself even as I derided her reasons in favor of mumblejumble Isaac. I still loved that woman. And if this day had not changed that fact, what ever could?"
I appreciated those links. I am esp. happy to see the correct pronunciation of
Gros Ventre; my own imaginings were so awkward. :-X
Adair is an exceptional woman. She quietly does what she finds right and necessary. Her place is with her son while he is living in town. In the summer she is back home with Angus with no fanfare or fuss. Loyalty to Angus as his wife is also part of what she finds right and necessary. When Rob wants to speak with her privately, she tells him, "Anything you ever say to me you say to Angus as well."
Lucas last will and testament; his last try at getting Rob and Angus back together. Both of them, of course, wanted no part of it. Adair, however, calmly refused to 'sell and divide'. Her consent was necessary, and she would not give it. Angus: "Wherever Adair was in that head of hers, she was firmly planted there."
Rob and Angus are still balking; two oxen that will not be yoked together. Adair asks the one question she has never asked of Angus before. "Will you do this for me?" Angus recognizes "Here was the other end of the bargain she quietly broached to me those years ago." She had accepted all Angus was and the shortcomings of a marriage with him. He owed this to her.
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Great analysis, Babi. I agree with everything you said.
However, I have zero sympathy for Angus' allowing himself the continued obsession with Anna - and I'd like to take Rob out behind the woodshed and give him a good whuppin'! (Oops - not allowed these days...how about "put him in Time Out for a very long time")
Sly Lucas! I think he knew that Adair would see that the combined responsibility worked - and she did.
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We made it home - just in time to assess the earthquake damage (not much, a few items, books, framed photographs on the floor but nothing serious) - and now prepare for the hurricane that is bearing down on the East Coast. On some models, it will cause extensive damage inland to the Washington DC area. Mippy, where is your son and his family coming from? I know it's somewhere close-in - in Virginia. And my husband wonders where on the cape are you located. We're worried about you - riding out the storm.- Hopefully Irene will lose her punch as she goes further up the coast. My sister on Long Island is quite concerned - planning to leave for the cape this weekend. ;)
I just had a glimpse at the posts from the last few days - so good to be back home. I'll throw a royal fit if the power goes out now...
A few comments tonight -
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"Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"
What do you think? I think so, as long as the milieu is as well researched as Doig has done.
If you've finished the book, you've probably noticed the extensive "Acknowledgments" section in the back of the book -
it is clear Doig does his homework for his novels. He grew up in Montana - as some of you have already found, he acknowledges:
"Dupayer Creek, Montana, the cherished country of my growing up years. In general I've retained nearby existing places such as Valier, Choteau, Conrad, Heart Butte and so on, but anything within what I've stretched geography to call "the Two Medicine country," I've felt free to change or invent."
I am particularly interested in the Two Medicine history - and the Blackfeet reservation...
MaryZ, I know you were part of our Native American book project - back when we were SeniorNet. We sent much needed books to the children in Browning, Montana. Blackfeet Early Childhood Center. I found these cached addresses.
615 S. Piegan
Browning, MT 59417
Mailing address for ages 6-18
Olivia Davis-Hall
Attn: SeniorNet Book Project
Blackfeet Boarding Dorm
PO Box 880
#1 Dormitory Road
Browning, MT 59417
"The Blackfeet Indian Reservation is 1.5 million acres of panormic beauty located in the mountains of North America. On the north it borders the Canadian Providence of Alberta and to the south is the Glacier Country."
Doig brought the history of Lewis and Clark into his story, making the history of the place come alive - as Adair is introduced to the area upon her arrival from Scotland. She shutters at the place - the sheer size, the wildness of the place. Will she ever come to appreciate it - or does she still harbor a desire to return to bonny Scotland? http://www.blackfeetcountry.com/twomedencounter.html
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"More than 50 years ago Ivan Doig packed his bags, took a train from Dupuyer, on Montana's Front Range, and traveled to Chicago for college. He has never again lived in the Big Sky state. Yet Montana has never really left him, for the state is the source of most of Doig's writings" - http://www.montana.edu/mountainsandminds/spring2009/doig/index.html
He writes in the "Acknowledgments" - "Malone and Roeder's Montana:A History of Two Centuries has been my guide as I've tried to make the lives of my characters respond to what might be called the laws of historical gravity; and Rick Roeder deserves the full due for his homestead research reflecting the fact that more land was homesteaded in Montana than any other state, and that the peak of Montana homestead boom was remarkably late in "frontier" history, 1914-1918."
Barbara, that link to Montana forest history was so familiar, wasn't it? - I'll bet those photographs were studied closely by Doig too. In the "Acknowledgments" he refers to the Forest History Society as being vitally helpful to his research.
We know the war was coming - and you just knew Varick was going to be part of it. But who knew he'd be in greater danger posted in the state of Washington than at the front?
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Sly Lucas! I think he knew that Adair would see that the combined responsibility worked - and she did.
Lucas seems to know how everyone's mind works. (Angus says this about Lucas and himself.) He must have guessed that Adair would take the stand she did to try to reconcile Rob and Angus, and that Rob would do anything rather than lose the money from the sheep.
The feud must have been very hard on Adair. She loyally took Angus' side; does that mean she cut herself off from Rob? If so, she lost a fair bit of her social life, since Rob was one of her nearest neighbors. Was she angry with Rob for creating a situation that forced her to live in town during the school year, or was she secretly glad that Angus was suffering for his love? We never get inside Adair's head, and she mostly keeps her thoughts to herself.
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"Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"
My answer is a resounding yes for this kind of fiction. I really distrust the kind of historical fiction that inserts characters into important events and has them interacting with real persons in such a way that you know some bits of history have been changed. You get a vivid picture, but you don't know how much of it is real. You may come away with a mistaken notion of what really happened. But Doig doesn't do that. The made-up part doesn't distort reality, and we get a really good picture of just what it was like, what the issues were, how external events affected the settlers, etc.
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"we get a really good picture of just what it was like, what the issues were, how external events affected the settlers, etc." PatH
Does knowing that Ivan Doig was a history professor at the U. of Washington suggest that his first interest here is telling the history of the place, rather that writing a love story? This is not to say that I think he is not a gifted storyteller -
"We never get inside Adair's head, and she mostly keeps her thoughts to herself." I agree with that. We've been hearing the same comments about Anna too, haven't we? Do you think this is because it is a story told from a man's point of view, a man who finds the workings of a woman's mind mystifying?
While on this track - would you say this is really Lucas's story...and the difficulties of establishing a footprint in the wilderness of Montana? Or because Angus is the narrator, is it his story?
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"Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?"
Oh, I definitely think so, JOANP. To mention another writer who does that so well,
I have found C.J. Sansom's books top-notch. He knows his historical background and
his mysteries set in the period of Henry VIII are excellent. He weaves the fiction
story into the factual setting/events/people perfectly. (I think you would like
him, PatH.)
Do you think this is because it is a story told from a man's point of view, a man
who finds the workings of a woman's mind mystifying?
A good point, JOANP. Doig
might have done more harm then good trying to go inside the mind of either woman.
Don't you find that we women probably have a pretty good idea of what's going on
with both Adair and Anna? I feel that I do, but what I'm 'seeing' may not be at
all how some of you other posters see them.
So now it's 1918, and parents all over the country are coping with the fear of losing the
sons they've spent so many years caring for. And we are worried for Varick, who has turned
out to be anexceptionally find fellow. (This post is jumping like mad. I'm going to continue
in the next post.)
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Okay, Varick. Remember what Stanley Meixell said about him? "He's abut a man and a half in anything I put him to. Regular demon for work, and what he can't do a first time he learns before a next time gets here." Words to make any father proud.
"Suddenly every male in Montana between milkteeth and storeteeth seemed to have gone to war." I found myself wondering if perhaps it was common to get more volunteers, percentage-wise at least, from rural areas. The young people raised in the country may have been more eager to see more of the world. Do you think that might be true?
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"Between milkteeth and storeteeth". That's one of my favorites of Doig's nifty phrases.
Babi, yes, I think I would like Sansom. JoanK has told me about him too.
JoanP, yes, I do think Doig's primary interest is the place. His love for the countryside and feel for the life of the settlers shine out. But he's also interested in the human story.
Doig hasn't lived in Montana since he went away to college, but his love for it remains. This is like Kipling, who left India when he was 5, came back for a few years as a young man, then left never to return. But most of his lifelong writings are about India, and his love for the country is prominent.
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I love Doik's phrases. Hope I can remember some of them to toss into conversation now and then.
Another fine aspect of Doick's writing ability is how smoothly he develops the plot - with necessary characters appearing well before they're needed to advance the story (Stanley Meixell being an example).
Having Anna appear at the Reservation camp seemed a bit "contrived" at first - but as the story developed later on, I could see why she and Angus had to see each other again in a private setting.
I think Varick has the best qualities of both parents - which speaks well for the atmosphere in which he was raised - and that speaks well of the relationship Adair and Angus developed.
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Ok what confuses me is Rob toward the end of this book - he has become so cranky and mean - I cannot find in the book any explanation except for the one that Angus gives - at least with other characters in the story you can look back to actually what they say and see a pattern - because, as you say Babi it is too easy for us to use our imagination as to what this or that means especially if we are looking at the happenings from the view point of Angus as the end-all -
I do see that both men like twin bookends share their outraged view of the other over what they perceived to be unacceptable attention to a women that they then share their viewpoint as if fact and muddy the water with another member of the family...Angus to Lucas about Rob and Rob to Varick about Angus.
I can only surmise and that is not satisfactory - I want someone in the story to give a hint with either a statement or an accumulation of conversations that are of a similar viewpoint. But I question, is it because Rob is alone in the house and now he understands what it was like for Angus to be alone all winter in his house all because of his wanting to hurt Angus or his thoughtless act of telling Varick of his perceptions about his father and Anna - but that guilt would not in my opinion be enough to make this man as cranky as he appears as compared to the high energy forward looking man he had been through out the story.
Maybe he expected to be more successful and blames Angus, the weather, Lucas, his luck having girls rather than boys, the Forest Service - on and on he would have a litany of influences that he could blame.
He seems cranky not just at Angus but cranky in general so the idea of holding a grudge because Angus did not help him become more successful when Angus would not join him multiplying their sheep herd does not fit - nor does it fit that by Angus spilling the beans about Rob and Nancy to Lucas in his drunken state put them at a distance because that did not happen - Lucas continued to financially back Rob and Rob quickly married Judith.
All we have is Angus thinking that Rob was jealous because he had a son and Rob did not and so Rob had to muddy the water between Angus and Varick - but even at that - I cannot see that alone accounting for this man changing into this bitter, bull headed old curmudgeon - although, he always was bull headed and I guess selfish but certainly not bitter - he was like the dawns early light and throw in a few rockets so that he was like a one man 4th of July fireworks display of energy, ideas and forward thinking.
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I've heard it said that the Four Corners area (NM, CO, UT, and AZ) is a major character in Tony Hillerman's books. I certainly agree with that. And I find that Montana is definitely a major character in Doig's book as well.
I've always felt that Doig's books were, to some extent, autobiographical - in some cases, maybe not "auto" specifically, but about his family.
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Yes, there seems to be along that band of land in this nation a similar story of description of the land and how the weather affects the land and the people who tried to "tame" the land. In this book featuring Montana there are mountains and valleys and butts and snow and wind - the further south you go along that longitude we have authors who describe expanses of land as far as the eye can see with wind and heat and lack of rain that causes as many hardships on the settlers as the snow, wind and long winters on these characters in Doig's book.
All the talk in the book of how hard the work and living condition became an annoyance to me - I am thinking of my son-in-law whose family for a couple of generations, including his father lived in a 'soddy' in Bloomfield Missouri and during the depression if it wasn't for the CCC they would not have any money coming in. I look at my own family - observing all around most of those who made this nation before WWII lived a hard life, always on the edge of one disaster or another and when for most it took physical labor to even take care of a family in town. I guess I would have been less annoyed if the author simply told the tales of this or that event without having to preface them with how hard it was.
I must say though I did not realize the impact on Montana of those from Scotland - a much earlier migration of Scotch Irish I knew settled in Appalachia but this seems to be a later migration - interesting how there is a character of caution that is in my son-in-law who is from that earlier migration of Scotch heritage - their family came from a few generations living in Tennessee before moving further 'west' so they could farm. My son-in-law has much the same caution and look for security as Angus in this story.
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Barb, I would suggest the non-fiction book "Born Fighting - How the Scots-Irish Shaped America" by James Webb.
It doesn't include the migration to Montana but certainly gave me a better understanding of the original Scots-Irish who immigrated into Appalachia and on west from that area into Missouri, Arkansas and Oklahoma.
Your statement about Rob that "Maybe he expected to be more successful and blames Angus, the weather, Lucas, his luck having girls rather than boys, the Forest Service - on and on he would have a litany of influences that he could blame. rings very true to me.
Even back in Scotland, Rob was able to manipulate, convince and control others to do what HE planned and thought was best. Up to this last section, he's been able to do the same thing in Montana. Now there are not only life situations that thwart his efforts - individuals are beginning to be less willing to take his advice.
Some of them "even" see him as old and out of touch.
How insulting to a "control freak"!! They must be taught the error of their ways - the rascals!!! >:(
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Interesting - there is a distinction between the Scotch Irish and the Scottish immigrant.
Scotch Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American)
Scottish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people)
Looks like from the map included there were many Scottish folk in the Northwest and in fact the entire west has many whose family emigrated from Scotland where as the east is about the Scotch Irish who were actually from Ireland and who only added the preface Scotch to distinguish themselves after the huge influx of Irish into American during the Starvation.
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That Scotch-Irish article is the first time I've seen Andrew Jackson and Elvis Presley on the same page!
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Maryz, you are certainly right about the terrain being a major character in both Hillerman's and Doig's books. In Hillerman the terrain is a spiritual presence; here, it's more of an overpowering force.
Rob is seeing a lot of things go wrong in his life. His angry act, telling Varick about Anna, somewhat estranged him from Adair. He doesn't see Varick either, since V is never around, and he looked on Varick as the son he wasn't lucky enough to have. He lost his shirt in the land location business. After one really good year, they have a barely-break-even year with the sheep, and it's going to get worse in the next chapter. Monetary success and getting ahead is much more the mainspring of his life than it is for Angus, who is more focussed on living a good life overall. And the forced partnership with Angus is grating on him more and more.
So I can see him getting cranky, but he certainly carries it to extremes, and that's going to get worse in 1919 too.
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here, it's more of an overpowering force.
Yes, and revered during morning communes - reminds me of a John Knox Godhead.
OK I can see that one goal after the other was knocked astray for Rob - so yes, it makes sense he is not a happy camper - but my word he becomes down right ornery. I guess that is it, his whole life was about achieving something more - hmmm I guess that is saying he does not see himself as enough so he needs more...is that it do you think - now that his opportunities in life are reduced to the size of a thimble among this vastness called Montana he has to live with himself and to him he is not enough?
Thinking aloud here - he saw himself as enough when they started this journey from Scotland - he never shared his fears or trepidations and so was very much the bravado leader - maybe that was all built on his dreams of success and now they have not materialized so he has to live with the fear of not being the success he imagined for himself.
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BARB, I think it was not achieving the success that he so badly wanted that has
embittered Rob. He had such high..often unrealistic..expectations. Life did not
give him all he demanded and he is simply filled with anger. So he takes it out
on everyone and everything.
Few of us in our generation faced those kinds of hardship,BARB. We know the early
settlers did, and our parents faced a severe depression. I think I might not have
fully grasped the difficulties of a place like Montana, esp. in that I am southern
born and raised. And Doig did lace his tales of hardships with some saving humor.
Adair is doing what she can to act as a buffer between Angus and Rob, since she
has insisted they work together. She begins going with them to feed the sheep, driving the
hay sled. For the first time she shows an interest in the sheep asking how many lambs had
been born. Angus loves this land; has thrown himself into this life wholeheartedly. It
pleases him that she has asked.
She insists on going with him to the sheep that had to be left alone when Davie
became ill. He tells her of all the hardships that would be involved, and asks if she
still wants to go. "I swear she said this, as if the past twenty-one years of her avoidance
of the Two Medicine country's mountainine were unceremoniously null and void. She said,"Of
course I want to."
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I have finished the book and will wait to comment until others have finished.
Sally
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So many good thoughts here this morning! Sally, please jump right in. We've only a few days left for this discussion. We're accomplishing something, I think - talking through these puzzling issues together. Babi put it this way- "what I'm 'seeing' may not be at all how some of you other posters see them." I think it's really helpful to talk about what we are seeing' don't you? Two of the more puzzling issues as I see them:
Rob's crippling bitterness at the end of his life-
Angus'continuing hope for a future with Anna -
I agree with Barbara, Rob was always bullheaded, maybe selfish. Callie sees him back in Scotland, manipulating Angus to join in his dream of a better life in Montana. I'm questionning whether Rob was the real leader of the two, though. Wasn't Angus better prepared for the journey? Didn't Angus keep Rob on track - homesteading, when Rob was ready to give it all up and stay in Gros Ventre to dally with Nancy? I see Rob lacking his Uncle Lucas' resiliency when things don't go the way he plans.
The one time I saw him manipulate Angus, against Angus' better judgment - was the matchmaking with Adair.
PatH sees monetary success and getting ahead the "mainspring" of Rob's life. Now he's hard up, barely making ends meet, alone and lonely on his ranch - and Angus has everything he doesn't have. He has Adair. And Anna. And after a time, Varick, the son Rob never had.
Oh yes, I can understand Rob now. He no longer has a vision, a dream, a plan. Or a friend to show him the way out of his miserable frame of mind.
Barbara - thank you for that link to the Scottish settlers. I've found it puzzling that there were so many Scottish settlers in the Two Medicine area - but I can see how it happened now - the sheer numbers of Scottish immigrants to the Northwest at this time says it all.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Census_Bureau_Scottish_Americans_in_the_United_States.gif/220px-Census_Bureau_Scottish_Americans_in_the_United_States.gif)
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Joan, yes - Angus is the thoughtful planner - just what a quick-minded (is there such a term), impetuous person like Rob needs. Although he is a responsible person in many ways, I think he likes being able to think "It wasn't my fault. If (fill in name) had just done it my way..., hadn't..., had only...., etc., everything would be fine in MY life".
I think I'm sensitive to this characteristic because I'm more like Angus and I've been associated with too many people who are/were similar to Rob. I don't play into their games any more.
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And I know a few people who act as resentfully as Rob does, when you refuse to play their games, Callie. It took many many years of not wanting to disappoint people to make me stand up to them. Angus had a nice way with Rob, back when they were still friends, still speaking. And there was always Lucas to find a solution that kept them from confrontations. There is noone to reason with them now. Adair knows better than to step in.
Angus says of Rob - "he doesn't understand the situation between Adair and me and therefore Anna and me." Do you understand it? He tells Rob he and Adair were a pair he {Rob} devised. " We weren't perfect for each other." Were Angus and Anna? I guess Angus believes that is so.
"I've always felt that Doig's books were, to some extent, autobiographical - in some cases, maybe not "auto" specifically, but about his family."
Mary Z, I've been thinking about the "auto" nature of the book - wondering whether the author himself has an unforgetable first love in mind as he writes of Angus and Anna. He writes so convincingly of this consuming lifelong attraction.
When Anna and Angus spoke at dawn that morning, he asks her, " When Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland...?
Is it understood then that Adair might return to Scotland when the three year partnership is up? Can you see that happening?
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"The young people raised in the country may have been more eager to see more of the world. Do you think that might be true?"
Babi, I do - but also see Varick eager to get out of Scotch Heaven for other reasons, don't you? There's evidence that he is like so many other young men eager to sign up for war - they feel themselves invincible and look for adventure. Remember his bull riding. Varick is fearless. Painful when father and son said goodbye, wasn't it? Varick might well have been going off to the front, for all they knew.
But INFLUENZA? What do you know of Influenza during WW!? I guess I knew that the death toll was great - that it killed as many as died at war. (Is that true?) But was it so widespread here, in the US? In the remote Two Medicine area? I don't remember my parents or grandparents ever mentioning flu deaths in the family. Do you? All I remember was Nana and her mustard plasters for whatever ailed me. Do you think that was a common treatment for flu - and coughs and colds?
-"Another fine aspect of Doig's writing ability is how smoothly he develops the plot."
Oh Callie, I agree. And not just the big made-for-the-movies scenes, but the sensitive way he handled the poignant, quiet moments - when Adair broke the news of Anna's death to Angus, for example.
I can almost see Doig as he worked out the plot - Anna's death was a shocker, wasn't it? I wonder whether he considered taking Isaac out of the story at that point - Isaac could just have easily died from the flu. What would this have done to the plot? Would Anna turn to Angus? And what would Angus have done? I've my own idea, but would like to know what you think...
But Doig didn't go that route, did he. What was Angus' reaction to Adair's news? So now, does this end Angus' obsession with Anna - for good?
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When flu shots first began to be promoted, my Mother said, "They say if you had the flu in 1917 and survived, you don't need one. I had it and I'm still here, so...?" (I think she did eventually begin getting them)
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Click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic)for the Wikipedia article on the 1918 Influenza Epidemic.
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To me the obsession he had was a picture or dream of how his life could be perfect - how he could feel loved and love and he had a name and face and long black braid to label that dream called Anna -
I do not think Adair can ever fill that spot - I think he has finally healed some like we do after the pain of loss in our lives - to me he just hung on to this obsessive dream as his fix for his pain and now that the 'labeled' fix is not there his obsession will lesson but I do not think disappear -
He did build up enough inner resources believing in himself plus he is allowing himself to feel the love from Adair - now that he sees she is not likely to leave he can relax rather than feel the anxiety of yet one more important person in his life leaving him as they did in death - for that matter now even Anna, his live dream adds to his pain of being left, abandoned by those he cared about and who he was dependent upon.
And the biggie, he has the respect and affection of his son - he is as complete as he can be and like sucking limes he knows he can make it. It may have taken 25 years since purchasing the limes to have the pay off of a life investment that back then his investment was, trust in a silent vendor, established in a few minutes using the exchange of his voyage money.
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Good for you, CALLIE. It takes some of us a long time to cut loose from people
who play the manipulative games. Like JOANP, I was raised to be polite and avoid
offending people. But there are some people that simply insist on being offended;
they seem to find it most satisfying.
The influenza epidemic, with it's lists of the dead as long, or longer, than those killed
in the war. Then Angus becomes ill, with only Adair to tend him. People are avoiding one
another out of necessity, out of fear of contagion. In his fever Angus is hallucinating and
crying out, and one of the things he shouts is "Anna!, Anna! ANNA!" How painful that must
have been for Adair. Yet she is amazingly compassionate.
This is the end to all Angus' vague hopes of 'maybe', in some obscure future. In all fairness to Anna, I don't think she would have made that promise if she had known Angus would be marrying Adair. I believe she was wiser than that. And life being what it is, I doubt the two
of them would have been as happy as Angus dreamed they would be.
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Whew! Some storm. We came through - no water in the basement, no trees down - still have power. Others have not been this fortunate. Sister in Long Ilsnad is bracing for it now - like JoanR We're waiting to hear from you - and Mippy too.
Babi - I see that Anna could not answer Angus' question when they met at the camp at dawn. Even if Adair returned to Scotland - Anna can't promise anything. I thnk she loves her family and doesn't want to disrupt it for what might have been when she was younger.
Callie, your mother was probably on to something re immunity to influenza because of previous exposure. (Do you remember mustard plasters? I don't even remember what they were, except my grandmother applied them to my chest whenever I had a cold or started to wheeze.)
The link from MaryZ on the Spanish flu of 1917 contained a lot of interesting information - Thanks, Mary!
- influenza is normally most deadly to the very young (under age 2) and the very old (over age 70), and may have been due to partial protection caused by exposure to the previous Russian flu pandemic of 1889.
- an unusual feature of this pandemic was that it mostly killed young adults, with 99% of pandemic influenza deaths occurring in people under 65, and more than half in young adults 20 to 40 years old.-
- Soldiers from Fort Riley, Kansas ill with Spanish influenza at a hospital ward at Camp Funston in 1918 where the worldwide pandemic began
- World War I did not cause the flu, but the close troop quarters and massive troop movements hastened the pandemic and probably both increased transmission and augmented mutation; it may also have increased the lethality of the virus. Some speculate that the soldiers' immune systems were weakened by malnourishment as well as the stresses of combat and chemical attacks, increasing their susceptibility
- Between 50 and 100 million died, making it one of the deadliest natural disasters in human history
So this information about this strain of the flu explains why the victims in Doig's story were healthy young people, rather than the elderly. Those mentioned were all men - except Anna, weren't they? Weren't you shocked when you read that Anna was a victim? Do you think Doig ever considered Isaac Reese as a victim? Why do you think he decided on Anna?
Barbara, your concept of Angus' obsession - as a dream of how his life could be perfect - makes a lot of sense. What do you think Anna's death did to his dream? How does he go on without this dream he has carried within for so long?
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Babi, the thing I could no longer handle was feeling manipulated into either being used or being the one who looked "tacky" for refusing - because the other person was so "sweet and nice".
(I edited this - so if you read the first version, I'm really not adverse to 'going along to get along' - just don't like being taken advantage of :))
Joan, no mustard plaster - but lots of Vicks VapoRub on the chest and mentholatum in the nose!
It seemed to me that Anna strung Angus along by saying (more than once) that, if she and Ivan ever had problems, she would know where to come. I don't have the book in front of me - but didn't she even say this during their Sunrise Moment at the sheep camp?
Neither do I remember without looking if Adair kept mentioning going back to Scotland - or if this might have been Angus' thinking that she was going to leave him, too?
Since we readers are privy to Angus' inner thoughts, I wonder if either woman realized how their remarks affected Angus?
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I had absolutely no patience with Angus' obsession with Anna. He really did not even know her that well and I think she was using him in case things didn't work out with Isaac. I hated to see Rob turn so bitter. I was hoping he would turn his life around again. I thought the ending was a little unsatisfactory. I learned a lot of Montana history and thought Doig's characterizations were really good. However, I did not care for his style of writing and probably won't read any more of his books. Sorry, Babi. I usually agree with your choice of books!!
Sally
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It seemed to me that Anna strung Angus along by saying (more than once) that, if she and Ivan ever had problems, she would know where to come. I don't have the book in front of me - but didn't she even say this during their Sunrise Moment at the sheep camp?
Yes, Anna did say that during the sunrise at the sheep camp. One thing we have to give them both: they didn't sleep with each other again. Later, while making love to Adair, Angus remarks (in his mind) that he only slept with Anna once.
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I do not see Anna saying that at the sheep camp at the dawn meeting -
Page 282 - "Anna. will you do a thing for me?"
Scrupulously kept her eyes on the wool brawl in fornt of us.
"If I can, I will. You know that, Angus. What?"
"See the dawn with me tomorrow."
A blue flash of eyes from her, quicker than quick, then away. I reasoned to her profile. "It'd be our one time to talk alone."
There was that same narrow hesitation she had shown when I asked her four years before, Do you have the life you want? Now her answer:
"Yes. Show me a Two Medicine dawn."
Then the scene changes to the sheep shearing and Rob giving him a time of it including Angus saying it was none of his business, Adair and his "climbing out of bed this morning to spy on me was none of your business either, Rob."
Page 286
Lisabeth reacts and Angus decides it is for Anna to explain that he would only make it worse if he tried to touch it. The truth, Lisabeth, that i had asked your mother: Anna, when Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland then...if and when, Anna, is there the chance then of our lives fitting together? Of you answering my love with yours, if and when? And her, Angus, you know how I am. Beyond anyone else, really, you grasp the kind of person i am. So you know all too well, I can only decide as far as I see a situation. The judging hesitation, the click as she gauged. But I can't see ahead to forever, can I. Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether...Her eyes honestly telling me that same as her words. I'm sorry the words aren't any better than they were, those years ago. You more than deserve better ones from me. But they're the same, Angus. If I ever see that Isaac and I have become wrong together, I'll know in the next minute to turn to you. Again and yet and still: Isaac was not lastingly innocent of the hazard of losing Anna: i was not irredeemably guilty of loving her hopelessly. Not Proven, the verdict one more time. Well, we had life ahead yet to see if proof would come, didn't we. I had lost no ground since our meeting in Valier, I could stay on the compass setting Adiar and I agreed to, getting on in life as best we could for Varick's sake, hers, mine, ours.
I guess I am not seeing Anna stringing Angus along - I am seeing her answer him in a way not to hurt him but not give him any encouragement - only to say, I cannot decide - who knows the future - I want to be with Isaac - if Isaac is not around then...you know me... and assuming you are also free from Adair - but that is a whole lot of maybe's -
I see Anna as not wanting to hurt of make an enemy of Angus - How would any of us handle living in a very small town seeing at all the socials and all the work meetings an old boyfriend who still had a crush on us and who is a decent nice sort of guy who even has a similar level of education as compared to most of the other folks in town.
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Lisabeth reacts and Angus decides it is for Anna to explain that he would only make it worse if he tried to touch it. The truth, Lisabeth, that i had asked your mother: Anna, when Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland then...if and when, Anna, is there the chance then of our lives fitting together? Of you answering my love with yours, if and when? And her, Angus, you know how I am. Beyond anyone else, really, you grasp the kind of person i am. So you know all too well, I can only decide as far as I see a situation. The judging hesitation, the click as she gauged. But I can't see ahead to forever, can I. Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether...Her eyes honestly telling me that same as her words. I'm sorry the words aren't any better than they were, those years ago. You more than deserve better ones from me. But they're the same, Angus. If I ever see that Isaac and I have become wrong together, I'll know in the next minute to turn to you. Again and yet and still: Isaac was not lastingly innocent of the hazard of losing Anna: i was not irredeemably guilty of loving her hopelessly. Not Proven, the verdict one more time. Well, we had life ahead yet to see if proof would come, didn't we. I had lost no ground since our meeting in Valier, I could stay on the compass setting Adiar and I agreed to, getting on in life as best we could for Varick's sake, hers, mine, ours.
Doig's habit of giving us many of the scenes as replayed in Angus' head, with actual conversations mostly italicized, makes us work rather hard to make sure we know what is happening. With this quote, I assume that it is what Angus decides in his head that he won't tell Lisabeth, and the italicized parts are what he and Anna actually said to each other. If so, then Anna has again told Angus the same thing she had told him before. She will consider him if things go wrong. Is she stringing him along, or saying what she really wishes could be so? I don't know, and I'm hoping to sort it out here.
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hmm interesting - I feel the need to pull this apart phrase or sentence by sentence because I am not sure what is being said aloud and what is Angus telling us his version of what was said.
Ok straight forward in my mind that Angus wants Anna to explain things to her daughter
Lisabeth reacts and Angus decides it is for Anna to explain that he would only make it worse if he tried to touch it.
Here we have Angus telling us what he thinks is truth and what he believes he asked Anna - we do not have word for word conversation only his synopsis as served by his memory. I do believe he asked just these questions but not sure if his words were this forthright especially, sharing his concern that Adair would take herself back to Scotland. Neither here nor there nor writing a side story - let's take this as an actual, real life exchange on his part. The truth, Lisabeth, that I had asked your mother: Anna, when Lisabeth and Peter and Varick are grown and gone...if Adair takes herself back to Scotland then...if and when, Anna, is there the chance then of our lives fitting together?
This then does not appear to be said aloud - it is what he was thinking - he was thinking, just as the past sentence he was talking to himself - no one is hearing him - he is talking out the scene but not to anyone - All this is going on in his head while Rob is berating him - as if reviewing for himself to justify what he sees as his honorable behavior. This summation on his part can be as he understood Anna - as he wanted to understand Anna.
Of you answering my love with yours, if and when?
Now we have Angus repeating in his head what he believes Anna said to him - again, second hand information - we do not have this from Anna's lips never the less - again, we can take this for the reality of the situation.
And her, Angus, you know how I am. Beyond anyone else, really, you grasp the kind of person i am. So you know all too well, I can only decide as far as I see a situation.
More from Anna as Angus saw it...
The judging hesitation, the click as she gauged. But I can't see ahead to forever, can I.
The sentence in his head goes on as he tries to repeat what Anna said and how he was thinking when she was speaking
Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether...Her eyes honestly telling me that same as her words. I'm sorry the words aren't any better than they were, those years ago. You more than deserve better ones from me. But they're the same, Angus. If I ever see that Isaac and I have become wrong together, I'll know in the next minute to turn to you.
Then the next three phrases with semi-colons after each - the use of a semicolon is as if three independent sentences but without the pause of a period so there are 3 independent thoughts tied together under one major issue~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Again and yet and still:
says to me his understanding of Anna is as it has always been in his head - there does not seem to me to be anything from Anna that is reaching out - he hopes but she has no clue to her state of mind if Isaac were not in her life after her children go - that she feels badly that he deserves a better answer from her but it is the same answer all these years - she chose Isaac and so far there is nothing wrong between her and Isaac - if there ever was she would turn to him - but that is a lot of ifs - I see her as scraping the barrel to not hurt him.
Isaac was not lastingly innocent of the hazard of losing Anna:
This is coming strictly from Angus - he can see or imagine a hazard that Anna has not shown any hazard of Isaac loosing her.
i was not irredeemably guilty of loving her hopelessly.
Like proving a Geometry problem he has constructed a series of statements leaning on the preceding statement to arrive at the proof which is his justifying his not feeling guilty for loving her hopelessly - on that slim chance that she and Isaac would have a falling out that is not in evidence or in Anna's mind.
Not Proven, the verdict one more time.
He touches reality here - he admits that his verdict or proof is not proven - and so it is a picture he carries in his head that allows him to fantasize they have a future.
Well, we had life ahead yet to see if proof would come, didn't we.
This sounds to me like in his head he as determined that living life with this dream alive is his hope that the proof - the verdict - that he loving her hopelessly will be redeemed and he will not be guilty of loving hopelessly.
I had lost no ground since our meeting in Valier,
This is suggesting to me he is saying that his conclusion and Anna's actions as well as, her words have not changed in all the years since they met on the back school steps in Valier.
I could stay on the compass setting Adiar and I agreed to, getting on in life as best we could for Varick's sake, hers, mine, ours.
And so he sees he can and will go on as he has for all the years since before he married Adiar and before the birth of Varick - his love rejected in favor of another and now his only hope is that Anna's marriage will fall apart of that he will be bereft of wife and a son on his own and at that moment in time Anna will also be widowed.
I just do not see Anna holding out any more hope for him other than to be nice - and say if these impossible odds were ever to happen - she knows him best - she is not even really promising and saying she cannot see or imagine a future where this decision will have to be made.
Oh dear - maybe we are all going to agree to disagree on this one - when it comes down to it - does it really matter - is this story really about the unrequited love between Angus and Anna - what is this story really about - I am having a difficult time imagining this story is simply a story of how Montana Sheep men from Scotland helped to develop this nation.
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"Whether Isaac is there in my life, after the children go-or whether..."
I see Anna saying the same thing she said the day she told Angus she had told Isaac yes. For whatever reason, she had chosen Isaac over Angus. For as long as Isaac is there in her life, her words are the same. She chose Isaac and as long as he is in her life, nothing will change. Angus wants her to consider a life without Isaac,doesn't he? - And he's trying to find out if she cares as much for him, as he cares for her. Anna can't promise they'll be together, because there's still Isaac in her life. She has never indicated disatisfaction with her life with Isaac. Nor does she indicate that she's pining for Angus.
I wasn't surprised that she can't think of a life without her husband. In fact, IF she did hold out a promise to Angus, then I'd agree she was stringing Angus along, to fan his interest in her. She even tells Angus she's sorry that she can't promise anything. No, I don't think she's at fault here.
Of course, Angus thinks he still has a chance with her - at least, that he's lost no ground.
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The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.
Dancing at the Rascal Fair by Ivan Doig
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/dancingattherascalfaircover.jpg) |
Dancing at the Rascal Fair is an authentic saga of the American experience at the turn of this century and a passionate, portrayal of the immigrants who dared to try new lives in the imposing Rocky Mountains.
Ivan Doig's supple tale of landseekers unfolds into a fateful contest of the heart between Anna Ramsay and Angus McCaskill, walled apart by their obligations as they and their stormy kith and kin vie to tame the brutal, beautiful Two Medicine country.
It is a story rich in detail, recounted in language that rings true, from the Scottish lilt of Lucas Barclay to the laconic speech of Stanley Meixell; above all, it is a story filled with “those word rainbows called poems.” (Barnes & Noble)
"Against this masterfully evoked backdrop. Mr. Doig addresses his real subject: love between friends, between the sexes, between the generations....His is a prose as tight as a new thread and as special as handmade candy....Dancing at the Rascal Fair races with real vigor and wit and passion." Lee K. Abbott ~ The New York Times Book Review |
(http://seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/dancingrascal/sheep.jpg)
Discussion Schedule:
August 1 ~ 5 Scotland and Helena; Gros Ventre; Medicine Lodge (about 88 pages)
August 6 ~ 14 Scotch Heaven (about 111 pages)
August 15 ~ 21 The Steaders (about 75 pages)
August 22 ~ 31 Two Medicine, 1918, 1919
*****
Some Topics for Consideration
August 22 ~ 31
Two Medicine
1. Why does Angus say that the band of sheep grazing on the rented Blackfeet reservation land was for Varick's benefit "in the eventual"? Why is Rob helping with the shearing up there?
2. Did Anna come up there with her children because she knew Angus would be there, or in spite of it? When she agreed to see the dawn with Angus, was she agreeing to something more?
3. Why did Rob bring Varick into the equation? Do you think he came to regret his action?
4. "They look at us, our fleeceless sons, and wonder how we ever grew such awful coats of complication." A parallel between Varick and those vulnerable sheep. How did the teen-aged Varick respond to Uncle Rob's report?
5. What was Lucas thinking when he made that will? Do you think he achieved what he wanted for each of his "heirs"?
6. As remote as it seems, the world seems to find its way into Scotch Heaven and the lives of its inhabitants. Somewhere Professor Doig asks the question, "Can fiction bring a milieu alive more vividly than "straight" history?" What do you think?
1919
7. Do you thnk they would have made it back from Valier with the haywagons plowing through the snow - without Varick?
8. Do Adair and Angus both hold Rob responsible for what happened in the reservoir? What do you think caused the drastic change in Rob's personality toward the end of his life?
9. As he writes Rob's remembrance , what are Angus' mixed feelings for his long time friend? Do you think their differences had always been there, but not noticed?
10. Doig decided to write a Scotch Heaven trilogy? Will it be Varick's story? Do you intend to read on?
Related links:
1862 - the Pacific Railroad Act and the Homestead Act (http://homesteadcongress.blogspot.com/2010/01/all-aboard-homestead-trains-ho.html)
Gros Ventre Indians in Montana (http://www.ftbelknap-nsn.gov/grosVentreHistory.php)
Ivan's Notes on his home page (http://www.ivandoig.com/notes.html)
Discussion Leaders: Babi (baba3to1@yahoo.com ) & Joan P (jonkie@verizon.net)
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Unfortunately, previous exposure to one flu is no guaranty of protection
against the next. Those flu viruses keep..what is the term?...metamorphosing?.
New strains every year, seemingly.
CALLIE, if I'm remembering correctly, Adair first mentioned returning to
Scotland when it seemed she could never carry a child to term. She was not
happy with Montana, and her marriage with Angus had little to compensate her.
Once Varick was born, there was not further mention of Scotland, but Angus
might well have thought, as Varick grew older, that Adair might once again
thing of leaving once Varick was gone.
Since we readers are privy to Angus' inner thoughts, I wonder if either woman
realized how their remarks affected Angus?
Oh, that is a hard question, CALLIE. In general, I think women do, usually,
know how their words are affecting their men. More so than the other way around,
at least. But one never really knows. The person we're talking to may be in a
situation, just then, that means they hear something quite different from what
was intended. How many misunderstandings have come about because the people
in an argument were not really hearing what the other was saying?
I was hoping Rob could turn things around, too,SALLY. But his death was so
much in keeping with his temper and bitterness. I can so easily see something
like that happening. The circumstances that led up to it can be seen earlier
in the story, so it's not something that just jumped up out of nowhere.
We never know how a book is going to affect us. Our views about the characters
color all our perceptions. Just the other day I was reading a book in which
a character I like was behaving very badly. I was so upset I wanted to smack
him, and wound up getting annoyed with my cat!
I think you're right, BARB. There are so many possible ways to read this
segment on the talk between Angus and Anna. And certainly the book is more
than a story of Scots sheepmen and Montana. It's a story of a time and a place
and the lives of people we have really come to like.
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Just this morning I heard about another strain of a bird flu - H5N1 I think it's called. In China now - supposed to start to spread. It is dangerous, as the flu vaccine planned for this fall won't protect. There is no known protection at this early stage.
However we read that pre-dawn conversation between Anna and Angus, it is clear that Angus hadn't given up his hope for a life with Anna - if he's patient. Were you taken off guard when she became a victim of the flu? I wondered how Doig was going to write his way through the rest of the story.
It was painful to read, wasn't it?
Is Angus able to get on with his life, now that there will be no future with Anna? Perhaps what he went through following her death is normal grieving - for a close loved one? Do you agree with Sally? Did Angus really know Anna that well, or did he create her, a mythical version of Anna? How does he get her out of his mind, when she's been there so long?
- "That season of loss."
- "...the Anna emptiness always waited"
- "the fact of Anna's death did not recede."
- "each dawn was the dawn of Anna and myself and the color of morning."
- "each time, each memory, I told myself with determination would be the last - that here was the logical point for the past to grow quiet."
I don't think I ever became impatient with Angus - as much as I felt sorry for him - and for Adair too. She knew he cared for Anna when she married him - but not the extent of it. I feel I must read another of Doig's books - of the McCaskill trilogy - out of curiosity. Will there be more of the Anna obsession? Or, without the longing for what cannot be, what kind of a book does Doig write?
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Ok I think I am on to something that is a prototype for the - she loves who loves another who still loves another and he makes the one who loves him feel loved without giving her his all…
This is a round about way of getting there however, let's start with the obvious that we have not even closely looked at. Raw nature versus, the work of humans.
Have you noticed over and over we hear about the mountains – named as if quotes from a catechism or a line of verse - the stretch of flat land – the rivers – whooping wind – the snow – the unexpected Spring – the beauty of the dawn – the golden light - the night, coyotes singing to the moon – the winter eaten with an ax – the sky is vasty blue – the sweep of land beneath the mountains - descriptions of horses – chilly days with no smoke rising from a chimney – faces described as walnut-colored and tipped outhouses described as beetles on their back.
Now compare all that wonder to how houses and sheds and fences are described – they are always coupled with a secondary word ‘work’ – no beauty or joy or awe of the skill and labor – only, the man made represents years or weeks of work –
On page 99 dropping the logs in place – “With a sound like a big box lid closing,”
Page 91 is a litany of the word “build” and yet, on that same page is a long paragraph of gazing “the tall grass of the valley bottom was being ruffled. A dance of green down there, and the might of the mountains above, and the aprons of timber and grazing land between; this would always be a view to climb to,”
Page 93 there is a wish for Oakum {tarred hemp that is used between the seams of a wooden sailboat} rather than clay as another example of building tight and sturdy using their knowing skill.
Page 103 “Now there’s a year’s worth of good luck if ever saw him…stepped back in across the Duff threshold without a word, strode to the stove and poked the fire into brisker flames. Not that any of us at all believed the superstition about a tall unspeaking man who straightway tended the hearth fire being the year’s most propitious first foot, but still.” And so, a building is a place where an event can be labeled as good luck -
The site Angus chooses for his cabin is behind the Breed Butte near a creek – out of sight and on a level piece of land for comfort. Reminds me of his bunk on the Jemmy where he hung on tightly and secretly sweated out his fears yet, he had limes to comfort him when the ship tossed them at sea. Another box – even if a hole in the sea as compared to his cabin, a box built amid the wonders and rough givings of nature.
The story describes no Christmas’s or Birthdays – no celebrations except, for the monthly dance at the school house – there is no statements of awe and wonderment for the skill or workmanship or labor used to build – the building are there to shelter – shelter from weather – a place to cook – not always eat in unless nature is on a rampage – a place to conceive children and birth them – the box that marks 5 years of homesteading and a place where fears and dreams are given attention.
A quote kept rattling in my head – “that all their elves for fear - Creep into acorn-cups and hide them there.”
Tried a few poets with no success so finally I Googled the quote and voilà – Shakespeare and there it is – Ivan Doig had to know the story line because bits and pieces are all contained in his Dancing at the Rascal Fair – the quote, from Act 2 scene 1, in the woods near Athens, in Shakespeare’s – A Midsummer Night’s Dream
The king doth keep his revels here to-night:
Take heed the queen come not within his sight;
For Oberon is passing fell and wrath,
Because that she as her attendant hath
A lovely boy, stolen from an Indian king;
She never had so sweet a changeling;
And jealous Oberon would have the child
Knight of his train, to trace the forests wild;
But she perforce withholds the loved boy,
Crowns him with flowers and makes him all her joy:
And now they never meet in grove or green,
By fountain clear, or spangled starlight sheen,
But, they do square, that all their elves for fear
Creep into acorn-cups and hide them there.
Is Rob like Oberon the king of the fairies – as Angus and Adair is like King Theseus and Queen Hippolyta?
And then we have Helena in Act 2 – interesting, a town in Montana is named Helena.
Helena is the pursuer, with Demetrius as the object of her desire, a reversal of roles which she finds scandalous. In this comedy of love and enchantment, Helena has followed Demetrius into the woods where he has gone to find the woman he loves, Hermia, who ran off with the man whom she loves, Lysander.
Sound familiar...
Helena will not be deterred; and no matter how much Demetrius insults, demeans, and threatens her, she remains steadfast in her devotion. He tells her that it makes him sick just to look at her; she responds that it makes her sick NOT to look at him. He threatens to abandon her in the woods, where she would be at the mercy of wild animals; she responds that they could do no worse than he has already done to her. Demetrius finally exits when Helena says, "We should be woo'd and were not made to woo." mocking him for his abdication of the traditional male role in courting.
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An e-book synopsis of Midsummer Night's Dream (http://www.enotes.com/midsummer-nights-dream) A play where nature has a role...
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Good morning, everyone ~
We are fine here on Cape Cod (MA) but our power kept fluctuating all day yesterday, so I remained off the computer. We lost internet access and power most of Sunday, but during the day Monday internet came back. I'm way behind on reading the posts, but I did finish the book.
Thanks for asking about us, we are ok.
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There you are! So good to hear from you, Mippy! Did you lose any trees? That seems to be the major loss here - 100 year old oaks, upended. Not ours, neighbors...but too close for comfort. We're all vulnerable!
We need to hear from JoanR on Long Island - and then I think we are all accounted for...
Isn't this just the start of the hurricane season? (Maybe I shouldn't have said that!) We look forward to hearing from you soon. One question on the table - did you like the book - do you plan to read another of the McCaskill Trilogy?
Barbara, you certainly get the sleuthing award for establishing the connection and finding the parallel's between Doig's story and "A Midsummer Night's Dream." Honestly, you should have been a teacher. Did you know there are Dancing at the Rascal Fair study guides out there for teachers who plan to use this book in their high school classes? After reading your post, it occurred to me that it would be even more valuable, meaningful - to present both of these works together... Hurrah for Barbara!
Now I've got to ask you where in the book you found the quote that led to your discovery? - “that all their elves for fear - Creep into acorn-cups and hide them there.” It sounds as if it may have referred before the historic snowfall in the last chapter of the book? Is that where you noted it?
It took a poet to notice the import of that line and seek the connection! Thank you!
Several of you have expressed disappointment in Doig's handling - or lack of it - of Rob's character - especially at the end. Lets talk more about Rob before the party is over.
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Glad to hear all is well, MIPPY. Do join us as soon as you've had a chance to catch your breath.
I don't know if I can agree that there is no evidence of "beauty or joy or awe of the
skill and labor", BARB. Remember that drive Angus made with Varick, taking the herd of
sheep up to the reservation? The sense of satisfaction and fitness, the repeated refrain
of "this I know the tune of"? Angus loved his life and his work, whether on the land
or in the school.
But yes, the descriptions of the land, the people, the homes they've built and the
animals they tend...all are so beautifully and poetically described.
And the characters. The end of the war; Varick returns. He is a boy no longer; he has matured
considerably. We see the first hint of this in his greeting to his father. Then, His gaze
shifted to Rob, and in another tone he simply uttered with a nod, "Unk." At some point in
the last few years, he has realized the wrongness of Rob's part in his estrangement from
Angus. And at some later point, he even tells Angus, "Dad, I heard about Mrs. Reese...It
must be tough on you." I really, really like this young man.
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No Joan, the quote is NOT in Ivan Doig's story - when I saw the house described as a big box and then realized the similarity between the berth aboard ship and how in both places Angus shares his fears - in his house he more states his fears than describes his physical response to his fears but that connection with personal space and fear had the quote rattle in my brain -
When I was a child my mother had a quote for EVERYTHING - it was constant - at times it was a line from a song that she would break out in reaction to the topic at hand - and so these quote come to mind that I have no reference where they came from until I recall one and look it up. Being afraid was not high on my mother's list of virtues and during the thirties there was many a reason for fear - interesting she never quoted Roosevelt till the war years...Anyhow that was how it started - once I found where the quote originated and started to read the scene there were many similarities.
I've been reading the play online - I can see many a movie that has borrowed some of the premise from this play, especially movies from the 1930s.
It would be fun to read the teacher guides - are they online - would they assist us when we are putting questions together for a book we are reading?
Glad you are in good shape after the storm Mippy - and wow, Babi did you hear, we may be getting rain before the week is out - I know Houston had some sprinkles this summer but we have had notta - and we can only water our lawn one day a week - I am ready for the streets to show wrinkles and our front lawns, that are now mostly brown, to start cracking.
Till later - I will be late...
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Varick returned from the war - though he never saw the front, he did experience the Spanish flu and the toll it took. How did this change his attitude towards his father - and his uncle? This wasn't what Rob expected, I'm sure. Now Varick remains merely civil towards Unk, but is ready to return to his family now. Is this maturity, Babi? Maybe he sees now that his father never intended to leave Adair because of Anna. And more importantly, Adair had no plan to leave Angus. Adair's role in the story becomes more and more important as the events unfold, doesn't it?
That was some trek through the snow - to Valier - for hay for the horses. Wasn't it obvious that Rob and Angus could not have done this themselves? Varick seems to be emerging as the future of the McCaskill saga. Will Varick - and Elisabeth lead the cast in the next of the trilogy? Will English Creek be their story? If so, I hope that we will read more of Adair and Angus. I'm not ready to say goodbye to these two.
Where's Sheila? Do I remember correctly, that you purchased all three of the trilogy, Sheila? Have you begun English Creek?
Do any of you intend to read another of Doig's novels?
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Barbara - here's a link to the Lesson Plans for Dancing at the Rascal Fair (http://www.bookrags.com/lessonplan/dancing-at-the-rascal-fair/intro.html). They are for sale - so I was unable to get in and see any of the material included within.
Still feel that it would be interesting to include teaching "A Midsummer Night's Dream" with Dancing at the Rascal Fair in a high school curriculum.
Wow, I'm even more impressed that you had that line in your head as you read Dancing and then found the parallels to Midsummer Night. Such a gift your mother passed on to you!
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I came in this afternoon to ask you to consider the contrasts between the characters - and to ask what you think of
Rob and Lucas - both set out for adventure as young men - and more. Both had dreams of a better life - riches and success.
Rob and Angus - two friends who left Scotland for a better life. Do you think either of them met their expectations?
Adair and Anna - why did each of these young ladies leave Scotland?
Varick and Angus - how would you compare father and son - when they were each 19?
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I see Lucas as the fulcrum between Rob and Angus - as to Rob and Lucas - Blood is thicker than water plus both strive for dollars - Lucas with no hands - hands are said to be the closest thing to voice and power - and yet, he speaks from the grave but only because of Adair - looks like the power of Lucas is only as good as he has something or someone to back him - the something often is his money and the someone is most often a Barclay - Nancy is there but does not act for him rather she takes care of him.
Rob and Angus are the arms of the scale that Lucas is the fulcrum holding the two from drifting head long out in orbit. When Rob is up often Angus is down and towards the end of the story the reverse - Rob is down and Angus is up.
Given the time in history the came I would imagine it had much to do with the decrease in opportunity as the famous Highland clearances by the English was taking place that by this time had included the clearance of the lowlands.
Adair I imagine came because Rob talked her into it and there was no one left in Scotland to take care of her. Her talk of returning to Scotland was probably homesickness for something that is no longer there. And so it seems to me both Adair and Angus had their "if only" dreams.
As to Anna Ramsay - she was from a nearby Scottish village but not much of her background was included in story - she is almost a shade with very little directly from her mouth.
With the comment Varick makes during the white out about his Unk pushing the limits it was obvious Angus and his son were tight again - a team - lovely...
As to more reads by Ivan Doig - I think I will pass - I only read this one to support Babi - Settling this nation is not high on my reading list and I have a stack of other authors I want to read next.
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According to the Reader's Guide on Ivan Doig's web site http://www.ivandoig.com/guide.html (http://www.ivandoig.com/guide.html), "Dancing At The Rascal Fair" is the second book in the trilogy, It's a sequel to "English Creek" and "Ride With Me Mariah Montana" is the third one. These two actually take place 20 years after "Dancing...".
Scroll down the links on the left side of the page to find the titles and information.
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Adair's role in the story becomes more and more important as the events unfold, doesn't it?
Good point, JOANP. Adair does take a more central role, partly, I think, thanks to the
canny maneuvering of Lucas Barkley. He always did seem to consider a problem, and then act
to resolve it as peacefully as he could. I haven't forgotten how he quietly sent Nancy away
for a while when Rob began hovering about too much.
Then, too, she no longer has to wonder if she will one day be put aside. Angus is now hers,
no rivals. She can step up to center stage without fear.
Actually, "Dancing at the Rascal Fair", though written second, is a prequel to "English
Creek". English Creek is set in the late 1930's and features 'Jack McCaskill'...probably
Varick's son. I hope to read that one, too. Actually, there is supposed to be another book
featuring one of Angus' students. Remember Susan, of the strong character and lovely singing
voice? I would like to read that one, too.
Were you surprised to find histor repeating itself? History repeating itself. Varick falls in love with Lisabeth Reese, Anna's daughter and her image in every way. He announces his intention to marry her, but then admits she is not yet aware of these plans for her future. Angus is dumbfounded. "Doesn't any generation ever learn the least scrap about life from the..." Fortunately, Beth said 'yes' to his proposal.
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I spent some time this morning reading summaries of Doig's novels in the link Callie provided here yesterday. Fascinating - Thanks, Callie!
As Babi just pointed out - English Creek, though the first book in the Trilogy, is actually a sequel to Dancing at the Rascal Fair...which is why we decided to read it first as Sheila intended to do back in July.
Dancing at the Rascal Fair "began on the quays of a Scottish port in 1889 to its close on a windswept Montana homestead three decades later.
"In English Creek Ivan Doig gave us the West of the l930's; the backdrop for Jick McCaskill's coming-of-age late in the Depression. Jick is fourteen and able now to share in the full life of family and town and ranch in the sprawling Two Medicine country. His father is a roustabout range rider turned forest ranger; his mother, from a local ranching family, is a practical woman with a peppery wit."
I see it's "Jick," not Jack, Babi - This is Varick's son - do you think that's where the "ick" in Jick comes from?
The third book - Ride With Me, Mariah Montana brings the story up to Montana's centennial "Now, by way of Jick again and another cast of ineffably believable characters, he brings the story forward to l989."
Babi - in the same link, I found Susan Duff in Prairie Nocturne.
"As for Susan Duff, who is the prism and distinctive sensibility of this novel, she first came into my pages as a bossy indomitable schoolgirl with a silver voice of her own in Dancing at the Rascal Fair and has demanded her own book ever since."
Does anyone else intend to read any of these titles in the future?
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Lucas did do a lot of maneuvering, I agree, Babi - though I think Adair would have done nothing he wanted her to do that she wasn't comfortable with. Adair has a mind of her own, as she would have put it. Don't fret about Adair.
Barbara sees Lucas "as the fulcrum between Rob and Angus." Do you think Lucas had a strong influence on Angus? Could he persuade Angus to do anything that Angus did not want to do? My first thought - no - BUT then I remember that land-locator business... Why did Angus agree to do that?
Rob on the other hand could be talked into just about anything - if he stood to gain from it. Financial gain seemed to be the way Lucas always controlled him.
Barbara, do you consider Doig's primary purpose in writing this trilogy was to tell of the settling of this nation - of Montana? If so, who's story is it, then? Is Montana the main character?
If the story is considered from this angle, it seems that we need to consider those who came first - and the difficulties they faced.
I think of Lucas - and his dreams of a better life in Montana - meaning riches, silver. Didn't Rob go to Montana for the same reason? Both men met with disappointment. Whose was worse? How did each resolve their disappointment?
Am late - but am really interested in hearing how the rest of you viewed the story, Doig's purpose...etc.
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Indeed, Barb, Lucas is often the power behind things. Angus says L. always knows exactly what he (Angus) is thinking, and he cares about both Rob and Angus. Even if it didn't work, his will certainly provided the best chance for reconciliation between the cousins. But instead it led to Rob's death. I wonder if Adair felt a little bit responsible for the death?
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Yes Pat, Lucas - it appears is not especially leaning toward either Rob or Angus - like the stem holding the balance with the two, Rob and Angus on either end of the arm across the stem - it was his letters back to Scotland that gave wings to the idea of emigrating and it was finding him in America that allowed them to feel secure enough so they could settle - it was his contacts that helped them get started as well as, his contact directed Angus to find their homestead site - and then it was his money that put them on the road to making a life and his continued financial support when a new idea for increasing their wealth crossed Rob's mind.
As you say Joan, he was holding the reins on Rob where Angus chaffed under those financial reins and wanted to be free of them. However, that to me is just the balance in the scale as it goes up and down with Lucas the center stem.
Even when Angus spills the beans about Rob and Nancy, Lucas takes care of it but does not pull back from Rob nor does he feel the need to show him up. In addition, Lucas is handless - the hands are the most expressive part of the body. As Aristotle says, "The tools of tools" - the hands are used to communicate - Lucas had no hands so his epic moment in the story had to be investing in others and his Will that outlined the last investment.
The Barclay's were all dreamers but Lucas knew how to couple his dreams with profit. In that respect Adair is more like Lucas - given the time and place in history she hung on and was at the top of the food chain. A good solid husband who was loving if not in love and a son to be proud of with skills, morals and strong opinions - not wealthy but she helped develop a homestead that will be the family touchstone in this new Montana.
I look at the story and it ends almost as it began, with a horse tumping into water that cannot be saved. Again, as I remember when we read, the first paragraph outlines the story - so back I go - Ivan quotes from the Glasgow Caledonian newspaper - I see Doig's story starting, "To say the truth, it was not how I expected--stepping off toward America past a drowned horse."
With that I see the intention was to tell a story of settling in America - in this case Montana and a horse drowns to start the story and end this part of the story, assuming we know the story continues as a trilogy. The bio that Callie found and shared indicates the author wanted to write about the land where he grew up. I would add he wrote about the early whites who change the face of the land and who were like his own family from Scotland and his love for the sweep of the land, the pioneer's early efforts and some of the untold stories of history.
Further I saw a correlation between England's clearing Scotland to re-portion it from Clan control to English control and the cleared land may have started in the Highlands however, it proceeded in the nineteenth century into the Lowlands - the cleared land was then mostly used for grazing sheep - This displacement sent many Scotsmen to coastal cities and to America during the eighteenth and nineteenth century.
From the years of Doig's story, Rob's and Angus' community would be affected, with fewer locals to keep a community vibrant. And so, Lucas, Rob, Angus were among those who came to Montana and did to the native Indians exactly what was done to them in Scotland. They admired the surrounding land but plowed up the valuable prairie not knowing any better - I guess we all have to ask what price glory - because we have on the backs of. these early settlers, the natural resources, and the land occupied by natives become a very wealthy nation.
Why a horse - Isaac runs horses, Varick shows his young adult skill riding rodeo, the horses pull the sleds of hay through the snow that saves most of their sheep, was used to carry rider and supplies to the summer grazing, the horse even brings them to Gros Ventra - in Celtic lore the horse is a messenger of the gods and symbolizes intellect, wisdom, the swiftness of thought and of life.
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Re-reading the post for errors I noticed how there was a tug in my throat when I read how the English displaced the Scotch from villages where for hundreds of years family relatives lived and died and yet, even I did not feel the same tug but more a matter of fact when I even write how Native Indian land was taken and rationed off to white settlers. hmmm need to think this through from both sides...
And then I thought if a story was starting today instead of a horse would it be that the internet went down world wide as someone was about to board a plane or maybe a rocket ship for another part of the universe. ;)
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Good point about the horse, Barb. I did expect Rob to die before the end of the book--something in the tone Angus used one of the times his interior monologue addressed Rob in the second person. I can't find it now--it's somewhere close to the beginning of the book.
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Just a note to say thanks to our excellent DLs and all who posted so many informative posts. I'm sorry I was here so seldom, but hours spent on hurricane yard clean up this week was the last straw.
I look forward to reading with all of you in the future!
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This has been a most interesting discussion. Many thanks to each of the DLs and all the participants.
Happy Reading!
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Thank YOU, Callie! It's been quite an interesting discussion - history, geography and a family saga as well - not to mention an earthquake and a hurricane... Mippy, you've had a time of it. We appreciate your participation, with your summer visitors...including Irene. We can stay open a few more days - especially looking to hear from JoanR - on Long Island, another who lives in Irene's path.
We're interested in hearing your overall impressions of the book, as well as the closing chapter. I didn't expect Rob to die, PatH. Thought there would be some sort of resolution of their differences before the story ended. The fact that Doig didn't end on that note only made the story more believable...life isn't fiction with happy, satisfying endings.
But the harsh way he died! With Angus and his sister as witnesses. Bull-headed Rob - still thinking he could do it his way!
It was logical that Angus was asked to write Rob's remembrance. It was almost as if he finally understood his old friend, when attempting to put his feelings into words.
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"I look at the story and it ends almost as it began, with a horse tumping into water that cannot be saved. Barbara"
What a valuable, insightful summing-up post, Barbara!
Why a horse, you asked. This wan't just any horse Rob drowned on...with his foot jammed in the stirrup. Scorpion was jointly owned by the two of them, wasn't he? Rob resents the fact that Angus holds on to that old "Reese horse." - much the same as he resents the fact that Angus hangs on to Anna - Reese.
I never understood why Rob insisted on paying Isaac Reese for part ownership of that horse - and why he insisted on keeping half-ownership when the partnership dissolved. Do you see any significance here?
Barbara, your mention of a correlation between England's clearing Scotland to re-portion it from Clan control to English control - brought to mind the next novel in the Trilogy - English Creek. It will be interesting to learn more about the significance of that title...
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Oh, thank you, JOANP. I definitely wanted to read the Susan Duff book if at all possible.
"Prairie Nocturne"...got it!
I believe Angus had a great respect for Lucas, but I don't think Lucas could have
persuaded him to anything against his own better judgment. I think the brief venture is
settling homesteaders was simply the recognition that he did need the money. It was not
enough to make him continue, tho', once he felt it was the wrong thing to do.
I can't see the enforced partnership as being the cause of Rob's death, PAT. And surely
not Adair's on-going role as a buffer between them, trying to ease the strain. Rob was
already bitter and sour. Resentful against everything. Even the return of
spring and beautiful weather only makes him snarl because it didn't come earlier when heneeded it. He is antagonistic to anything and everything Angus says. He is taking some of
his rage out in shooting coyotes. He takes the continued existence of that old horse,
Scorpion, as an outrage; he's not gaining them anything; he should be put down. And his
raging anger leads at last to his death.
Angus closing words are so poignant, to me. "my friend who was my enemy. Equally ardent at both, weren't you, bless you, damn you. You I knew longest of any, Rob, and I barely fathomed you at all, did I?
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I really enjoyed this book--both the historical and geographical side and the human story--will definitely read more of Doig's books. JoanP and Babi, you did a wonderful job finding background material and analyzing the book in great detail. And you all saw so much in the book that I never would have noticed without you. A really great discussion.
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Yes, I have to agree with Callie, Pat, Mippy - a really nice discussion - for me this was a piece of American History that I would never have read about - most of the early settlement stories I have read are either from the southwest or very early northeast along with some for the nineteenth century south - this was my first read of Scottish settlers - stories I have read in the past about Scotland were usually centered in the struggle of the Jacobites - and so this story was neat to see how the later generations of folks with the Jacobite heritage affected the settling of America. Babi and Joan you both gave us food for thought and admirably kept us going. And early in the read Callie your sharing the experiences of your family and the settling of OK was fabulous. Thanks to everyone -
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I have so much enjoyed sharing this book with all of you. I do apreciate JOANP's hard work
and her invitation to assist. I have started Doig's "Prairie Nocturne" and I am finding again that
skilled craftsmanship we've come to admire in Doig. Ah, what he can do with words!
Thank you all so much for making this such a pleasure. Is there anything you'd like to include
before we wind this up?
One final quote for me, "Life isn't famous for being evenhanded, is it?"
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Babi, thank you for the reference to Doig's writing style. You kept such wonderful notes - and brought them to us in each and every post. What a joy to meet you here each morning!
I know how easy it is to get caught up in the history and the human story - you sort of forget the brush strokes Doig used to bring it alive.
Just this once, I'm going to admit to a personal interest in Angus' inability to get past that first love...I admired how he tried to get on with his life and his marriage, living always with that other life that might have been - might even live someday.
It will be interesting to turn to English Creek to see what becomes of Adair and Angus. Will they stay on in Scotch Heaven or move on with Varick and his family to a place called English Creek? I'm curious how Adair and Angus will get on with Anna no longer a presence.
I want to be sure to add thank you's to ALL who contributed to the discussion. We couldn't have done it without you. You each had something important to say - even if you didn't understand Angus' obsession! :) Y ou're lucky if you never experienced such a lifelong distraction!
We'll stay open here through the Labor Day weekend - giving those who are still mopping up after Irene to come in with final thoughts. We'd hate to turn off the lights with some out there without power.
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Thanks for this discussion - interesting as always. It prompted me to reread a book I'd enjoyed many years ago, and I'll be rereading others of Doig's books.
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Joan and MaryZ, "Prairie Nocturne", which features that former student of Angus', Susan Duff,
does include Angus and Adair. It is set, apparently, about 1924. From the reviews, I gather
"English Creek" opens in 1939. Some of the earlier reviews I checked seemed to confuse those
dates. (Or perhaps I was the one confused?) I'm guessing that John (Jack) McCaskill of 1939
is Varick's son. Whatever....I want to read them all!
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Thank you, MaryZ - we enjoyed having you join in the discussion! Babi brings interesting information on the books that follow our Dancing characters to whet the appetite~ Funny how he wrote them out of chronological order, isn't it? Maybe that's the way they were published?
So, Babi, about what age are you finding Adair and Angus in Prairie Nocturne? I have to read that one!
I looked it up and found this-
"Set in Montana, France, Scotland, and New York during the Harlem Renaissance, Prairie Nocturne is a deeply longitudinal novel that raises everlasting questions of allegiance, the grip of the past, and the cost of passion. Doig seems to be at it again! :D
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Adair is 40 when the book opens in 1924. What year was it that Angus emigrated? 1897?
He was 19 at that time, whenever it was. So that would make him about 48. That makes
sense. He was pretty young when he started teaching. He is still teaching, by the way.
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All of Doig's books are in the OKC Library system but only a few are in my branch. One of them is "Prairie Nocturne" and I brought it home yesterday. Started reading it last night and like it.
Susan Duff is an interesting person and by the end of page 3, Doig has deftly told us where she is in her life and how she got there. You may be surprised!
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Callie, I always thought Susan Duff was interesting too - outstanding and way beyond her years. Smart, considering that she was brought up fairly isolated from the outside world. I expected we'd hear more about her in the Dancing story - and eager to check out "Prairie Nocturne" to learn what brought her to France - and Harlem. I just checked my Library - they have three copies - all "available." We're planning a trip abroad in the coming week - I'd better not start it now -
Something to look forward to when we return.
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We're planning a trip abroad in the coming week - I'd better not start it now -
Something to look forward to when we return.
Where?
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Pat, we're off to London to visit with son who lives there, temporarily, I hope. Also a side trip to Spain - to Madrid and then to Toledo. I've never learned the language, so that's the challenge this trip. I've learned about 50 phrases that might be hepful -such as - Donde estan los servicios? Or - Hacen descuentos a los jubilados. I can recognize many nouns - on menus. :D
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JoanP - have a great trip. Spain has been really high on my wish list for some time, but.... You'll do fine with the language. I've gotten some of my best meals when I had no clue as to what I was ordering. ::)
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Thanks, MaryZ - not sure how I'd react to a serving of criadillas (bull's testicles) - maybe they'd be delicious, as long as I didn't know what I was eating.)
We're scheduled to put this discussion away tonght. It's been a pleasure. Let's do it again. Maybe with one of Doig's books?