Author Topic: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online  (Read 150205 times)

Mippy

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: June 01, 2009, 07:56:28 AM »
The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.










(These topics are only here to spark conversation, choose one or suggest your own and let's discuss:)
Week  1: (pp-112)

1. Sisyphus!   Sillybos! Persephone!  Demeter!  Hades!  Dionysus! Parthenope!  Sirens! Minerva Tyrrhena!  Cybele! Harpy! And many more!   The first 112 pages are a rich riot of classical allusion.  What reference in the first 112 pages would you like to know more about? Choose one which interested you and bring an explanation of it here so we can all learn.

2.   "Many are the narthex bearers but few the Bacchoi." (page 76 ) What does this mean? Why is it repeated?

3.   What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie  and her point of view have on the reader?  Do you think this narrator so far is  reliable? Why or why not?

4.   Both Sophie and Agnes seem to feel guilty about things or overly responsible for events.  Why?

5.   Do you understand the tetraktys? What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)?   Does anyone know anything about  Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory?  What does the word tetraktys itself mean?

6. What are the some of the  main conflicts in this first section?

7. Do you have any personal knowledge or do you know of anybody who has been involved  with a modern cult? What do you think the appeal of the modern cult is?

8.  Why did Sophie not want to go to Capri? Why did she go?  Given her rough start, what would you say the prospects are for a successful time?

9.   How many contrasts are there in this section and how are they variously presented? What is their effect? Were there any instances of  imagery you particularly liked?

10. We have  a lot going on here in this carefully crafted first section: how  many parallels so far can you identify? (let's keep a list)

11.  What foreshadowing did you notice  in these first 112 pages? Was the shooting a surprise to you?   Do you think the phone call was from  Ely? What if she had picked it up on the 2nd ring?

12.  What one thing did you most like about the first 112 pages?


13. New:
Who is the most memorable character  in the first 112 pages in your opinion?

14. Would  the book have been weakened or made stronger by another type of narrator other than the first person? Why or why not?

15.  What is M'Lou doing in the plot? What purpose does she serve?

16. What's THE most important thing about the first 112 pages,  in your opinion?










In the first week of June, Week I  we will not talk about anything other than what is contained in  the first 112 pages. If your question  may pertain to what comes later on, we'll ask you to hold that particular one  for the end, so as not to spoil it for the rest.


Discussion Leaders: Andrea & Ginny


Roman books as  papyrus rolls on shelves with the sillybos on the end.
  A lost Roman funerary relief from Neumagen, Germany.
Thanks to Dr. Sider for locating this for us.



New! If you'd like to borrow Gaetano Capasso's DVD showing the reconstruction of the Villa of the Papyri and Library, email your mailing address to gvinesc@gmail.com and we'll pass it around!



Claire ~
I don't like Elgin as well as you do.  Too many professors like him in my various years in grad school ...  been there ... don't like that kind of guy.
                                          
Taking one choice from a question in the header:
One of the favorite godesses was Demeter who brings forth the fruit of the earth.
In ancient times, the source of good harvests needed to be personified, quite correctly as a godess, rather than a god, just as women are the fruitful human beings.

Demeter was often shown wearing a wreath of ears of corn, as she was especially important to the growing of all grains.

Here's a link:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/demeter.html
quot libros, quam breve tempus

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: June 01, 2009, 08:46:43 AM »
Gumtree...hello our little nightly fairy on the other side of the world!   Wow! your info blew me away.  I knew all of that stuff probably meant something, but egads...I am still trying to wrap my brain around it all.  Thank you so much for saving me tons of time searching it out.  I will have to add some of this to my notebook of clues.

Kidsal...hmmmm seems like love, romance, sex and religion are the center of our plot in some way.  Fire, water, air and earth...hmmm the elements we of the human race need to exist.  Something is rattling around in my head with the comparisons I just typed, but who knows what???  Have to give this some thought.

Steph...I love how you say, " I do honestly read for the plot and characters, not so much for whats behind everything."  Seems that makes for a much relaxed, and enjoyable read, while I am running in circles looking for things that may not mean a hell of beans about anything.  lololol  After our last book, TGLPPPS I promised myself to try to not go too far away from the plot and characters.  I hope I can keep my promise.   ::)

I'm going to hold the right to reserve my opinions on Ely and Elgin along with the other men mentioned so far.  I can say they all seem a bit odd, and what about Sam's obsession with Agnes?  Carol has given us some very strange personalities as far as the men go, and loop them in with the gods and goddesses and I am really scratching my head.  As my old Italian Nonna would say....Mama MIA!

Ciao for now..............
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Athena

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Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: June 01, 2009, 09:29:40 AM »
Andrea,

My first - and only - trip to Rome included tripping over a tree root in the sidewalk leading to the Sistine Chapel.  I broke my left hand badly, went to the Rome emergency room (don't go there!), got a temporary cast, and flew home the next morning to go to Emory Hospital!


question #1. References
:  The first pages of The Night Villa provide an excellent background in myth, etc., if a student new to the subject merely looks up all the references.  I, myself, have spent some time checking out "silliboi,"  which Goodman refers to as follows:

“Sillyboi,” I suggest, providing the Greek term for the tags that ancient librarians used to identify papyrus rolls."

I confess that I only looked up 10 or 15 sources (including Greek dictionaries, et al), and found references to rappers, Photo Bucket pages, and on and on, but only one concrete reference - that above of Carol Goodman!
"Better by far you should forget and smile than that you should remember and be sad." ~ Christina Rossetti.

NormaLemke

  • Posts: 84
Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: June 01, 2009, 09:47:01 AM »
Bellamarie,
   You comment on the odd characters. When I consider that we are meeting them all on a college campus, I think it is usual to find these extremes. Carol has shown us right off that she is going to expose the human-ness of her characters. She seems to move right along with big moves--then I realized that she is a word economist--giving us what is truly important to the unfolding plot [can't say how I know  :-\.

Suzie

  • Posts: 917
Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: June 01, 2009, 09:52:34 AM »
Sooo many thoughts from all of these comments!  

One possible foreshadowing may be in the names of two of the characters...ELy and ELgin..and how these characters might be involved in mystery cults...especially the ELeusinian Mystery cult which where originally performed in honor of Demeter and her daughter Persephone.

I was in a sorority in college...the activities of the initiation night were secret (and not much fun)...and fraternaties and sororities have Greek names.   Perhaps these could also be considered as modern day "cults" in that attract students who want to identify with a group that has "secrets".

gumtree, thank you for the info on Pythagorus.  Have used the Pythagorean Theory in trig, and calculus but the depth of meaning is fascinating.



Frybabe

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Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: June 01, 2009, 10:19:01 AM »
I perked up when in Chapter 7 Sophie began wondering whether a series of "coincidences" might actually be coded messages from Ely and that omens (like the dead crow) warnings of what is to come.  A little paranoia creeping in? Just before she said yes to going on the expedition, she had a feeling someone was outside. Creepy! Did that have anything to do with her decision? Is she running away from the feeling that Ely was coming for her?

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: June 01, 2009, 10:21:46 AM »
Steph- she met Ely in grad school and even as an undergraduate he had made a name for himself.  He taught himself Greek and I think she admired him.  She came to admire more than his brain and a front porch glider swing ::) in short time.  The problems began when  he started quoting Pythagoras "as if he were quoting a prophet."  I felt so saddened as they began to drift apart as he withdrew from her, from sleeping and from everything but the Tetraktys.

Pregnant she found him at the triangle house, fell and lost their child.  I don't think she ever stopped loving him, the hollowness remained but he did not.

Remember how fearful she became when the clerk, Charles,  told her that Ely was one of the "followers" interested in going to New Mexico?
Cults frighten me, I remember watching the Jim Jones story and being truly mortified, fearing that some day one of my kids would gravitate toward such a thing.  Some of these cults are like drugs, making it nearly impossible to reason with a person.
I don't care whether they advocate violence or not, lie or not- it's still a cult and they own you, body and soul!  
Of course most people would agree that I wouldn't do well with a vow of silence.:o
Suzie, how clever of you ELy,ELgin,Elusian.  I never picked up on that.

Norma-you hit the nail on the head.
Quote
Carol has shown us right off that she is going to expose the human-ness of her characters. She seems to move right along with big moves--then I realized that she is a word economist--giving us what is truly important to the unfolding plot [can't say how I know  .

 Irregardless of how we feel about these characters, they feel so close, don't they as we witness their vulnerable, personal, forgivable selves?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: June 01, 2009, 10:27:46 AM »
Frybaby- I just saw your post.  I do not believe that Sophie ever feared Ely, did she?  

Athena- how awful falling and fracturing your hand as you were entering the Cistene Chapel.  No, huh-    the Roman hospitals are the pits and should be avoided?
I love referencing all of these mythological gods and goddesses but unfortunately I do not have 10-15 resources.  I sure wish I did.  One afternoon, in our pre discussion, I spent the entire day looking up these goddesses.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4093
Re: Night Villa ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: June 01, 2009, 10:45:50 AM »
#11.  Was the shooting a surprise to you?

The shooting totally caught me off guard.  I  thought,  holy cow what the heck.  Carol had me so engrossed in Agnes's presentation, that I didn't see it coming.  I suspected Dale was going to show up, but certainly not there and then. 

Frybabe....I'm not so sure I think Sophie decided to go to Italy to run away from the possible person lurking outside her house.  I think she could not resist from going after Elgin showed her the scrolls with Iusta's name showing up in Phinea's book.  Sophie truly wants some confirmation Iusta was freed.  I think she has attached herself and life with Iusta's,  and it will giver her some kind of personal peace if she can find this out.  I feel like Sophie is looking for some closure in Iusta and her own life,  and Italy is certainly one place to begin to get some answers. 

I know these first 112 pages have a ton of things going on to keep us busy trying to figure out. 
Ciao for now.......
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Athena

  • Posts: 2722
  • Hello from Atlanta, GA~USA
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: June 01, 2009, 10:46:27 AM »
I rely a lot on the Web for references,  ALF.
"Better by far you should forget and smile than that you should remember and be sad." ~ Christina Rossetti.

pedln

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  • SE Missouri
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: June 01, 2009, 10:48:37 AM »
Gum,  that’s fascinating material about Pythagorous and Pythagoreans.  And the Tetraktys.  And I’m glad to see it here, as I think that much of this book require us to understand the Pythagoreans and the Tetraktys.  Tetra is Greek for ??

Sallie,  so was the term women applied only to  those who were not virgins?  I'm glad you defined the early "narthex."  Am not sure I see how it travelled to it's present day definition.

I’ve not quite arrived at page 112, but will soon.  But I think we must watch for foreshadowing.  On p. 55 Sophie reflects back to Elgin’s comments about her paper – “You’ve romanticized your subject, and overidentified with them (Vitalis and Justa).”

And on p.58 – more fofeshadowing   “How likely is it that someone’s going to shoot him [Elgin] twice in one year?”

And on one page I’ve noted the Elgin and Phineas are both Romeos.  So trouble is brewing somewhere?

Twenty years ago this summer I visited Naples where son was stationed on the NATO base.  I went to Pompeii, Herculaneum, and Capri, kept wishing I had a more complete guide for Pompeii.  I had little background for any of it, but loved it all and want to go back.

Naples is not so bad, STeph, a lot of traffic.  Crowded, many very SMALL cars, lots of traffic.  But the best gelato in the world, and I found every stand.

catbrown

  • Posts: 152
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: June 01, 2009, 11:15:35 AM »
I've read the whole book, but promise to keep to the first 112 pages.

Despite the shooting, the first 112 pages mostly concern our heroine's history and character. As it's a first person narration, all our information is coming from her and most of it after she's been shot, pumped full of drugs, and then brewing pneumonia. Maybe this accounts for the somewhat fevered, almost paranoid viewpoint and some dreamy and some downright delusional scenes.

So, is she a reliable narrator of events?

marcie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: June 01, 2009, 11:16:33 AM »
What great posts here with so much information and good stories about your experiences.

What I enjoy about the book is the fact that it's a mystery that keeps my attention with the great writing and I love the way it is constructed with the parallel stories of the past and present. It's so rich with all of the allusions. I confess that I read it first and didn't stop to look up all of the wonderful images and references to ancient culture and myths with which I wasn't familiar. I'm now going back through the pages and looking up information, as some of you are doing. I enjoyed the book without having done this along the way, but now I'm enjoying learning more about many of the references. I appreciate everyone sharing what they have learned too.

marcie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: June 01, 2009, 12:24:41 PM »
I'm sharing the references I looked up for Ovid and Ovid's Metamorphoses that is mentioned early in Chapter 1 during the conversation between Dr. Sophie Chase and her student Agnes. I've put them on a page at http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html

If any of you have found other helpful references to Ovid or the Metamorphoses, let me know and I'll add them. Also, I'll go through the previous messages posted by some of you that contain references you've found to other classical allusions and I'll add them to the page so we'll have them in one place. I hope that's okay with you.

marcie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: June 01, 2009, 12:28:47 PM »
Catbrown, I agree with you if you're doubting that Sophie Chase is a reliable narrator. We only see things from her point of view. She's admitted she's made mistakes about the men in her life.  She may not be the best judge of people.

Eloise

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  • Montreal
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: June 01, 2009, 01:36:01 PM »
3.   What effect does the First Person Narration of the protagonist Sophie  and her point of view have on the reader?  Do you think this narrator so far is  reliable? Why or why not?[/]

I hesitate on that one. At first Sophie seems to me more like the student herself. She is describing the appearance of Agnes a bit like a man would describe a woman he likes or another girl describing the beauty of a classmate. “She’s sunk back into her chair and her hands, released from the knot she’d wrung them into, fan open, loose and graceful, in her lap, like one of those paper flowers that expand in water”

While Sophie was talking to Agnes about the Papyrus Project her mind was rambling about Agnes’s hands and beauty. It reads like if she is finding her ‘desirable’ but as the narrator and the main character it just doesn’t fit the setting. I find minute details of a situation removes me from the real issue, or it could be a deliberate ploy to bring readers away from the impending drama, or it would explain why Agnes was the target of a violent act. I still don’t think it fits here.
 
I find Agnes’s character believable, but not Sophie. BTW, why should heroes and heroines look like fashion models in many popular novels, tall, slim, blond, blue eyes, handsome sometimes rich and a genius to boot. Where does that put the other people in real life who are not? Is their life that dull and lonely?

Mind you this is just a first impression on the first pages and as I read up to page 112 and I find that my first impression didn't last as I get immersed in the story.


marcie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: June 01, 2009, 01:53:35 PM »
That's an interesting impression, Eloise. You seem to be able to keep good track of the narrator. My experience is that I sort of forget that Sophie is the narrator at times and I view her description of some of the details...about Agnes and anyone else... as more objective than is warranted. Probably because I wasn't paying as close attention to the narrator, I didn't get the impression you did of Sophie's "admiration of /desire for" of beautiful Agnes.

I think that for the most part I find the details help to fill out the story rather than distract from it.

Pat

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: June 01, 2009, 02:43:53 PM »
Annotated Links to Classical References in The Night Villa by Carol Goodman

Good Page, Marcie.
I hope you will list it with the links in the heading.

pedln

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: June 01, 2009, 03:04:20 PM »
Marcie, I think it’s normal to accept what the narrator says as objective.  After all, it’s her story; until proven otherwise, one tends to believe her.  But, as some have said, she may not be reliable.

She has confused me about the three volumes of Athenian Nights by Phineas Aulus.

1.  Sophie lent three volumes to Agnes, or so she says
2.  Agnes can’t remember, thinks there were only two when she returned to Austin from Sweetwater
3.  Sam says Dale Henry took one of the books, and that’s why Agnes had only two.
4.  Now Sophie says Ely took volume 3 five years ago when he went to New Mexico.
5.  So what’s the story on the volume that Charles brought back from Ely in New Mexico – is it the one that Ely took or that Dale Henry took or what?
6.  Are we talking three books or four books here?

Also, Charles tells Sophie that the translation isn’t as good as that of LaF.  Sophie doesn’t really tell us if it’s the same book or not, but you’d think she might at least comment on the translator.


catbrown

  • Posts: 152
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: June 01, 2009, 04:43:55 PM »
The thing about Sophie is that she seems a tad overwrought, perhaps because of the shooting. But, still, even her descriptions of past events tend toward the melodramatic as do her current perceptions, particularly of the men in her life.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4093
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #180 on: June 01, 2009, 05:09:30 PM »
What I surmised as far as the third volume is this....Sophie thought she loaned it to Agnes.  Agnes wasn't so sure she did.  According to Sam,  Dale had it the day he went on his shooting spree.  As for Ely taking it with him, and then 5 years later having Charles return it,  makes this entire thing, PAZZO!!!!!!!  (For those who don't speak Italian....CRAZY!!!!)
 
By the way the narrator says things happened, happen, yet don't happen, or seem to happen, where Sophie is concerned, I am beginning to think it is all a delirious dream. Could she be in a mental institution having a break down?  Everything she supposedly has lived through up to now, would account for one.

Is she actually in Italy?  Did the shooting take place?  Did she have a baby?  Was there an Ely?  Every single thing I have read up to page 112 is to say the least questionable to me.  I honestly can not believe for one second,  someone getting out of the hospital with half of her lung gone, coming home, mowing a lawn and then jetting off to Italy, and trekking up the hills and tunnels etc. to the villa, in the blazing heat.  The logical result would be her collasping on the floor and having her delirious visions of the tiles.  But my logic says......HUH??  There is no remote possibility, her health condition, would have even allowed her to get up the hill the first time to the hotel. 

This entire story is way too out there for one normal person. My suspicions started kicking in when the whole Ely cult started, then when she kept going back to talk to Charles, and the whole cat thing, and now the entire visit to the villa made NO sense to me.  I kept asking myself, "Why doesn't she answer the phone?"  If she is so much in love with Ely, and the numerology was a code he would use, then why NOT answer the phone.  Sophie, Agnes and Iusta all seem to be enslaved, needing to be freed.

Does anyone remember the book "Seven Sisters"?  This is starting to make me think of that book.

All I got left to say right now is, Mama Mia!!! 
Ciao for now.................... 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

winsummm

  • Posts: 461
Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: June 01, 2009, 05:13:42 PM »
confession: Carol Goodman has me  hooked I'm finishing THE LAKE OF DEAD LANGUAGES, finished THE SONATE LOVER, and also this book. and I keep getting them mixed up as if they all belong in a series of some sort  I have another couple of samples on my kindle awaiting me.

as for references, I use google. But having read too far ahead and confused myself I'll just lurk and enjoy all of you and your commments.  I read for the story line first and then go back and pick up the subtleties I've missed.  

She has a thing about PETALS,  in the Sonate Lover. it must mean something --  will google.

here it is and it fits in with the theme of that novel.

http://www.rosegathering.com/petals.html

claire
thimk

Frybabe

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: June 01, 2009, 05:21:00 PM »
Regarding Volume 3 of Athenian Nights, I was under the impression that Sam didn't know whether it was THE volume or not, just that it had a red cover. He and Sophie are ASSUMING it was. It does seem odd, however, that the volume would have been missing for five years without Sophie noticing it before. I guess we will have to wait and see if there was more of a connection between Dale and Ely than the bookstore.

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: June 01, 2009, 05:42:29 PM »
Carol, in case you are here reading these post.  I have high respect for you and don't pay any attention to my rants.  As you can see, I am Italian descent, and that's how we express ourselves.  Your book has me in fits!   I can imagine you sitting back, having fun with this.  ::)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: June 01, 2009, 05:45:29 PM »
I'll have to go back to re-read the section about the missing book to refresh my memory.

LOL, Bellamarie. I love your comment about the series of events being "PAZZO"!!
I also think you have a good insight when you say "Sophie, Agnes and Iusta all seem to be enslaved, needing to be freed." I think you are right.

Winsummm, I agree with you that there are similarities among some of Carol's books. Certain themes  are in many of them. I enjoy that.

I'll keep going through the messages and will add more links to the resources page at http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/nightvilla/nightvillaref.html. I've put the link to the page in the heading of this discussion at the top of the page (in the Interesting Links section.)

CarolGoodman

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: June 01, 2009, 07:12:39 PM »
Hi everybody!  I love how closely you're all reading NIGHT VILLA.  It's  a little daunting!  I'm afraid if I comment too much on questions now, I'll give away plot points for later.  Let me know if you want me to, though!   

I love, too, the visuals you have posted at the beginning! Sisyphus pushing the rock up the hill is adorable!  I can't imagine having better readers!



ALF43

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: June 01, 2009, 07:32:33 PM »
Carol- well there you are, you have found us!  Welcome to your first SeniorLearn adventure and we hope that you will enjoy being here with us as much as we are delighted to have you. 

Please, do not be alarmed or intimidated here with us.  One thing, our readers are exceptionally thorough and will intensively inquire and scrupulously dig until they have their answer.  We have been known to exhaust a topic.  I knew after meeting you that we wouldn't scare you off and you would be happy to answer all the questions.  However, I do agree that if you answer some of the points that have been raised so early it would become a "spoiler",  as many of these issues will be addressed as we progress.(Of course I've cheated and read on ahead.)  We will all be like Sisyphus and tredge uphill together.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ginny

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Questions for Carol
« Reply #187 on: June 01, 2009, 07:36:26 PM »

QUESTIONS FOR CAROL

Welcome, Carol! Whoop! I've been trying to get in here all day and I picked a good time! Thank you for coming in! So glad you like the illustrations!

I think we're off to a grand start here, and everybody is supposed to put questions for you (and you're right, don't answer one now that will spoil the plot) but everybody is supposed to put Questions for Carol in the subject line so you'll know what to (possibly, your choice) answer.

I've got some, answer or not as you choose!

1. Many of us here have encountered some "Elgins" in our forays into Academia. Did you base him on any one person or an amalgam of several people? (or can't you answer that one?) Have you encountered an  Elgin along the way? Are they always in Classics or is it more widespread? hahaha

2. Are you the first person to make a cult of Tetratkys or is there one somewhere?  

3. "flat on the stone floor so that I can see the tiles better." Carol what is this type of expression called? I know you teach writing, it's driving me crazy. It's very well done, what IS it? I looked up a bunch of literary definitions, is it   synaesthesia?  Or irony? Or what literary technique is it called? Obviously I don't have a clue, but I really love whatever it is.
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ALF43

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: June 01, 2009, 07:37:47 PM »
Bellamarie- what better tribute can you offer an author than to dissect their book?  If I were a writer I would love the fact that someone is reading, positing and inquiring as they get further into the characters.

Quote
Winsummm, I agree with you that there are similarities among some of Carol's books. Certain themes  are in many of them. I enjoy that.

If you get a chance read the interview above that we had with Carol in NY City.  One of the questions that I asked was her themes of dark, murky waters and having to swim through them.  Here again, in The night Villa, another heroine is faced with water and so was Sophie's mother.

Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

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Questions for Carol
« Reply #189 on: June 01, 2009, 08:14:07 PM »
I have a question as well Carol.
I was blown away with the use of imagry in these first 112 pages. The contrast between black and white is stark.  I first noticed it when Sophie was looking for Ely and "the wind picked up the fluffy white spores from the cottonwood trees."

The physician referred to xray by pointing to the ghostly white shape lurking beneath her rib cage.
What about M"Lou's eyes looking black in the picture with Sophie's mother?
  
or... mothers ego looked black!  
When she entered Ely's room she found it completely black ... one window covered with a black out shade, edges sealed with black electricical tape.
 A reference to a cave, aha!  Is that what you are going for with this contrast black/white?
It took her 5 coats of white latex enamel paint to cover the walls.

Even the brightly colored modern paperbacks are all arraye like sentinels against the dark.  (I loved that image.)

pg. 45 you mention the black/white image beginning with the cool white depths of the fridge.  There are references to dark brises under Ely's eyes and sunlight, overhead lights (white)  Agnes'es UT sweatshirt accentuates her pallor and the dark rings under her eyes.

Sophie sees Ely's writing as a letter glowing starkly white against the black and then each letters acquires a halo that flames red in the darkness.  Oh by the way, Carol, red is another bloody colore used often in this theme.

When Sophie first meets Gus, the cat, she notes the maelstrom of black and white fur, with a white triangle over his nose.  On that same visit, Charles describes Ely's emptiness as being like a black hole, dragging everybody into it.

The black crow with the melee of black feathers is mentioned.  "They're pyschopomps- messengers sent to lead the sould into the underworld. "
Is that what the black is all about?

In Naples, Sophie notes the walls of the Hotel Convento are pearly white and when she descends into delerium she lays on white tiles.    

Is this a foreshadowing, I wonder of the house of Night in the underworld that Hesiod wrote of, ""ghastly clouds shroud it in darkness."

These many inferences to dark vs. light became a game for me.  Good vs. evil?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

mrssherlock

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: June 01, 2009, 08:23:51 PM »
This discussion is making my head swim.  You all have so many interesting facts and references to share.  So much I glossed over when reading because I was caught up in the fast developing plot has been highlighted here so that i need to reread some parts. 

Sophie's (Carol's) language is delightful.  The paper flower/hands image was enchanting.  I sense no hint of sexual attraction in her admiriation of Agnes' beauty, it seems to be merely that same mental ecstacy one encounters whe we see a perfect rose or spectacular sunset.  Leaves us breathless in awe. 

Every school has an Elgin.  We had one, don't remember what area he taught in but we all saw him tooling around in his convertable with one pretty coed after another. But he was young; harder to explain are the older men who still seem to have their pick of the pretty girls. 

SInce philosophy and I are enemies I sort of skim the mythological stuff.  The character who piques my inerest is the host, the former enfant terrible of the silicon world.  (Can't remember his name.) 

Serendipity strikes; while reading this I finished Mad Dash by Patricia Gaffney whose protagonist is married to a professor of history, and began Last Rituals by Yrsa Sifurdsdottir about the murder in Iceland of a German history graduate student.  Purely happenstance.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

ginny

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Random thoughts on a fabulous day's remarks.
« Reply #191 on: June 01, 2009, 08:25:28 PM »
We're off to a roaring start, you're all dazzling~!  I printed out 23 pages of your great thoughts and we're all over everywhere, just great stuff.

So what's the strongest thing so far, Stephanie reads for character and plot, which is the strongest thing here so far in YOUR opinions?

Those of you taken a bit aback by the first person narrator,  would the book have been weakened or made stronger by another type of narration? Why or why not?

I am thinking that the character of an Unreliable Narrator (somebody PLEASE correct me)  does not necessarily rely upon  bizarre dreams or injury/ drug induced hallucinations, but rather the character's truly telling his own story, and our believing it, only to find out it was something entirely otherwise.

For instance Ishiguro's Remains of the  Day has to be one of the great examples of the unreliable narrator.

He fooled himself and us, it was a powerful thing. And very poignant. I keep asking myself in this what is real? What is not?

I don't think she cut the grass, bellamarie, that's a good point.  I think she was in the grip of powerful drugs which (Andrea being a nurse can attest) often  have people seeing things on the walls (remember The  Yellow Wallpaper?)  

I liked the way Cathy put this: Maybe this accounts for the somewhat fevered, almost paranoid viewpoint and some dreamy and some downright delusional scenes.


 The Seven Sisters was another  great unreliable narrator example, bella, but in that one the reader was deliberately misled, and when you do that you risk alienating the reader (she sure did me hahahaa), so we'll have to watch here.

You all have really torn this up! The books! I missed that entirely but I guarantee you I could lose one for 5 years and never know it (the duplicates sitting on my shelves attest to that).

You all are sharp and one thing I like is that in THIS book things do mean something and so it's so much more fun (than, say Seven Sisters) to carefully pay attention to what's said and find out it DID matter. I mean I recall obsessing over that stupid golden Christmas tree and it meant NOTHING!

Gum thank you for the Tetraktys, I have read that  probably 10 times, and it still  means nothing to me. Isn't Pythagoras one of the authors they hope to find in the real Villa Della Papiri?  How can it be that one's brain is so pathetic that it can't comprehend a couple of numbers? I sure hope they are not the key to anything or I'm dead (and I've read the book twice) hahahaa

But I liked the 10 thing. The house where Ely went was number 10. We need to keep track of these parallels.

The Tetraktys as a cult. The Mystery Cults.  Parallel. We've...it's almost like a parallel universe here, one in the past and one in the present and Sophie is the channeller. I keep thinking about Demeter and Persephone, too, Mippy, thank you for that link.

 That is a very old myth, and it occurs in several cultures in different forms. And what, one wonders, does it have to do with what we're talking about?

What about the drowning images? Those were parallels, too, between Sophie and Ely I'm having a problem (at this point) getting a handle on Ely. One thing we'll want to watch for is IF any of the characters change as they develop, including Sophie. What is it they give the Oscar for? Which character has shown the most development?

Oh I just thought of another parallel? Agnes with Dale and Sophie with Ely?

And what is M'Lou doing in the plot? What purpose does she serve?

Why do you suppose Sophie thought that Ely was trying to contact her? what would have happened if she had picked up the phone on the second ring? Why did she not?


Athena, what an awful experience for you! I am sorry! I have not been in an Italian hospital, knock on wood, but I don't think it's on my agenda haahhaa. However my dentist told me that I could have done worse than to seek attention for my tooth last year in Italy, very advanced so he said and less expensive!  That's good to know when a crown falls off with about 1 week left in the trip. :)

Kidsal, thank you for the Plato definition of Many are the narthex bearers, but few the Bacchoi.

What do you think it means here? It's repeated twice at least. We can see what it meant,  thanks to you, what does it mean here? Why is it here?

Frybabe, good one, bookstore, missed that entirely. This is a very carefully crafted plot here, nothing sloppy, nothing for no reason. Oh!! I just caught this in your post: Regarding Volume 3 of Athenian Nights, Oh Athenian nights, it all ties together!

I don't know anything about lung damage but I have been idly wondering WHY? Why is the protagonist wounded as it were initially? I am confident there is a reason.

These are good questions bellamarie asks: Is she actually in Italy?  Did the shooting take place?  Did she have a baby?  Was there an Ely?   We do need to try to figure out what's real and what's not.

I personally absolutely LOVE the way her mind goes off on the ancient world, it's a nice foreshadowing of what's coming.

HO! Pedln! Tetra is Greek for ?? What an innocent sweet little question that is! Tetra we all think of as 4, right?  I was going to be smart and so I looked up the etymology of tetraktys. I recommend it for EVERYBODY'S own crossing into the Twilight Zone,  it's unreal! Look it up! All I know is it's pronounced tet TRACK tiss.

I think.


Fabulous start! Too long, not finished, hold on....


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marcie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: June 01, 2009, 08:34:59 PM »
Hello, Carol. Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to our questions as we discuss your wonderful book.

bellamarie

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Question for Carol
« Reply #193 on: June 01, 2009, 09:01:12 PM »
I know you probably can not answer this question right now, but I must ask, how on earth is Sophie capable of mowing her lawn the first day out of the hospital, then go traveling, climbing steep hills, riding stuffy trollys, trekking through tunnels etc. so soon after a major injury to her lung?  In all reality it is not possible, so my next question is this.....

Is Sophie a human character or is she a figment of a story or dream?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: June 01, 2009, 09:05:27 PM »
mrssherlock...."This discussion is making my head swim."    

Welcome to our pool of insanity, jump in the water is fine, just not sure if our minds are though.  ;D

ALF.....I was noticing how Carol uses color throughout, especially when she describes eyes.  Great pick up on all the  black and white used.  Phew... one more thing to question.  lol

Ginny...Yes, I remember how there was so much concentration on that silly Christmas tree.  lolol  I don't know why this book started reminding me of The Seven Sisters.  Its like its going in places that don't make sense, much like SS did.

Carol, I just know you are sitting back like the chesquire cat grinning at us.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: June 01, 2009, 09:15:24 PM »
Eloise  you said
Quote
I find Agnes’s character believable, but not Sophie.


Why not?

I missed that entirely on Agnes, but there was something about Agnes herself that I keep having a slight problem with, all that guilt, (paralleled in Sophie's guilt which she keeps expressing), like "I felt at least as responsible for what happened as that counselor." (page 49). Why?

Mrs. Sherlock, do you mean John Lyros?

Andrea: now THERE'S analysis! Colors, black, white, red, your book must look like mine!

I do hate to pull out the word THEME here as it's too early but what would you call it? What are some of the themes we see developing here? I need to put all these new questions in the heading.

I really liked Norma's word economist, too, but such richness in the descriptions!


Pedln, great examples of foreshadowing,
 “How likely is it that someone’s going to shoot him [Elgin] twice in one year?”  I just flew over that one.

Here's another big foreshadowing: page 111:  "And I couldn't help wondering, since my grandmother was always telling me how alike we were, if the same thing mightn't happen to me." (She's talking about how her mother drowned on page 110). Didn't Ely's brother drown? And so they have that  in common.

And here's another one: page 109:

Quote
...in the faint stir of air playing over my soaked T- shirt. Had I gone swimming after all? I wonder. I can't remember. My whole body aches as if I had swum the length of the Bay of Naples. My lunge feel as if I've inhaled dirty seawater, and the air in the room ripples as if even now I'm underwater....
 



Look at this! Hotel Il Convento in Naples!

 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tripadvisor.com%2FHotel_Review-g187785-d275674-Reviews-Hotel_Il_Convento-Naples_Campania.html&ei=TXckSoThNIjBtweumsXbBg&usg=AFQjCNGjpMA1FnXvnWtBsa7I4FNfPV4A3g&sig2=k2Cicigm6nP2iFaK9OWCNw


I can't seem to make a link otherwise, this is Trip Advisor, do you think Carol made this name up or do you think this IS the one? One review remarks on the air conditioning but that does not mean a thing. At all.  Most of the old convents are not air conditioned, but some are, and room A may work when room B does not.


Pedln, that's a great observation on the Reverend FP Long translation and the LaFleur (the current editor  of  Wheelock).  I don't know what else he's translated but I am sure there's a list, but what of "FP Long?"I am caught up in the apparent dichotomy here.  There are SO many many forgotten translators like this  "FP Long,"  you can see them listed everywhere. Was HE real?

 LaFleur is, I laughed to see that name too, nice touch.

Here's an example of  (mostly) forgotten translators of the Aeneid:

Thomas May; Gavin Douglas (V, 1553)
   Robert Singleton (V, 1855)
   H. Rushton Fairclough* (P, 1916, 1932)
Thomas Phaer and Thomas Twyne (V, 1573)
   John Miller (BV, 1863)
   John Jackson (1921)
John Vicars (V, 1632)  
John Rose (1867)  
Frank Richards (1928)
John Ogilby (1649)
    John Conington* (V, 1867)
   Rolfe Humphries* (BV, 1951)
John Dryden* (V, 1693-1700)
   Christopher Cranch (BV, 1872, 1886)
   C. Day Lewis* (BV, 1952)
Richard Lauderdale (1700)
   W. Lucas Collins (1874)  
Kevin Guinagh* (P, 1953)
Nicholas Brady (BV, 1716)
   Henry Pierce (P, 1879, 1883)
   W.F. Jackson Knight* (P, 1956, 1958)
Joseph Trapp (BV, 1720, 1731)
   Thomas Burt (BV, 1883)  
Patric Dickinson* (BV, 1961)
Christopher Pitt (1731, 1753)  
John Wilstach (V, 1884)  
 L.R. Lind* (BV, 1962)
Joseph Davidson (P, 1743)
   J[ohn] W[illiam] Mackail* (1885)
   James H. Mantinband (1964)
Robert Andrews (1766)  
William Thornhill (BV, 1886)
   Frank Copley* (BV, 1965, 1975)
Alexander Strahan (BV, 1767)  
A. Hamilton Bryce (1894)  
Allen Mandelbaum* (BV, 1971)
William Melmoth (1790)
   John Conington and J.A. Symonds* (V, 18uu)
    Robert Fitzgerald* (BV, 1983)
James Beresford (BV, 1794)  
John Long (1900)    C.H. Sisson* (BV, 1986)
 Caleb Alexander (P, 1796)
   Charles Billson* (BV, 1906)
   David West* (P, 1991)
Charles Symmons (1817)
   Michael Oakley* (1907)
   Edward McCrorie* (BV, 1995)
Levi Hart and V.R. Osborn (P, 1833)
   James Rhoades (V, 1907, 1921)
    Richard S. Caldwell (BV, 2004)
J.M. King (1847)
   Edward Taylor (1907)  
 G.B. Cobbold (P, 2005)
Joseph Owgan (P, 1853)
   Theodore Williams (V, 1908)  
 Stanley Lombardo (BV, 2005)
George Wheeler (P, 1853)
   Arthur S. Way * (V, 1916)
    Robert Fagles (BV, 2006)

So there are untold armies of respected translators. I can't find FP Long anywhere on Google, can you? Am  I not looking in the right place? Lots of those old ones are Reverends and lots of them are in obscure colleges,  but...where is he? This is the kind of exploration that I absolutely love but is it a blind alley? Who can find the Reverend FP Long who translated this non existent author Phineas Aulus and his equally not real  Athenian Nights in 1911? Do we have again a parallel, sort of reversed? ?

What a day~ What a start! But what's THE most important thing about the first 112 pages,  in your opinion?


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JoanK

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: June 02, 2009, 12:01:26 AM »
Hi, I finally got here, and have read the first passage. I'm really enjoying the book: there is so much in it, and so many ways it could go.

I agree with those who see the shooting as foreshadowing. clearly, Sophie feels that, and so do we, looking at (the sofar absent) Ely as scary and dangerous. And I'm glad others noticed the confusion over Volume 3 -- it drove me nuts!

One theme that may run through Carol's books is numerology(?) The link about the rose above gives signifigence to the 1st, 2nd, ... petal. And I've heard Pythagorus referred to as the father of numerology.

I remember Pythagorus in reference to the number zero: which had a mystic meaning for him. This was at a time when the numbering system did not contain a zero; the introduction of zero was considered blasphemous by some, as it implied that the gods could allow nothing to exist. Apparantly, assigning mystic meanings to numbers was common for the Greeks (?) Was it also for the Romans?

The "tetra (four) was explained above: P would form triangles of numbers with 4 on a side.

bellamarie

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: June 02, 2009, 01:13:16 AM »
In my opinion, THE most important thing about the first 112 pages,  is that whether it be Agnes, Sophie, Iustas or Persephone, bad things happen in your life, that you are not able to always control.  I think in each of these characters, real or not, there is a lesson to learn from them.  They each had situations that caused them hurt or harm at the hands of a man. Their innocence was robbed from them.  Their trust in love, and in men, proved to cause them enormous consequences.  Each of the female figures, past or present, real or unreal, here or in the after life, show that you can not always trust in human nature/mankind.

All the male figures so far do not bode well in my opinion.  I also can't help but notice the "cult mentality" of the men.  They are weak, so they succumb to self destructive behavior.  They all needed control over women.  Rape is not about sex, it is about power and control, the erotic frescoes in the villa even painted under supervision of John Lyros is not so much about art, as I see it is about men placing women in weakened positions for their own self satisfaction.  

Maybe the theme of this is about women freeing themselves from the hands of men.  Women empowering them selves.

I was curious about Ovid's Metamorphoses, since this seems to be the reason for the trip to Italy, hence the Papyrus Project..(Role of women in mystery project.)

This particular site, I think answers a lot of questions, and gives me a clearer insight into Carol's inspiration for this book.  
 
http://larryavisbrown.homestead.com/files/xeno.ovid1.htm
 
Introduction:
Ovid's influence on Western art and literature cannot be exaggerated. The Metamorphoses is our best classical source of 250 myths. "The poem is the most comprehensive, creative mythological work that has come down to us from antiquity" (Galinsky). Based on its influence, "European literature and art would be poorer for the loss of the Metamorphoses than for the loss of Homer" (Hadas). Ovid was a major inspiration for Dante, Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton (see bibliography on last page). If Virgil is Rome's greatest poet, Ovid is the most popular (even in his own time; Ovidian graffiti has been found on the walls of Pompeii).


Biography:
Publius Ovidius Naso (43 BC - 18 AD). Ovid seems to have believed in art for pleasure's sake, having no ethical agenda for his writings, unlike his predecessor Virgil, who wrote for the betterment of Romans. Ovid's other works include: Medea (a tragedy, no longer extant), Heroides (letters to legendary heroes from their wives; read them here), Amores (poetic essays on love), The Art of Love (advice on how to seduce a woman; scandalous in Augustus' time, one possible reason for Ovid's banishment in 8 AD), the Fasti (a poetic calendar of religious festivals). Ovid offered something of an apology for his immoral reputation (Tristia 2:354): "My life is respectable, my Muse is full of jesting. A book is not evidence of one's soul."

Organization:
In the first verses of the Metamorphoses, Ovid claims to write one continuous epic, not an anthology of myths. Unlike the Iliad, however, there is no central hero, thus no simple Aristotelian unity to the work. So what binds this poem together, making it more than a random collection of stories? We might first consider three superficial strategies of unity within the poem:
1.   All of Ovid's tales involve metamorphosis. But some stories (see Phaethon, Pentheus, Heracles) only have metamorphosis tacked on as an incidental element, almost as an afterthought. Ovid is more interested in metamorphosis as a universal principle which explains the nature of the world: Troy falls, Rome rises. Nothing is permanent.
2.   Chronological progression: Ovid begins his poem with the story of creation and the flood, and ends in his own day with Augustus on the throne. However, chronology becomes unimportant in the vast middle section of work, as seen by the numerous anachronisms throughout (see notes on Callisto, Atlas, Cycnus stories for examples).
3.   Transitional links: Ovid continually surprises us, as we never know where he's going next. He changes strategies using several techniques:
o   He follows the same character through different adventures (Perseus, Hercules).
o   He tells a story within a story: to put Argus to sleep, Mercury tells another story, becoming an internal narrator within Ovid's story.
o   He "slides" from the story of one character to that of a relative or friend (Epaphus and Phaethon, end of book 1).
o   He even will note the absence of a character in one tale as an introduction to a new story (Tereus, book 6).
These different types of links provide only a superficial continuity to the poem. A better way of viewing the artistic unity of the Metamorphoses considers Ovid's use of "theme with variations." For example, in Books 1-2, there are five variations (at least) of the virgin-pursued-by-god theme:
1.Daphne and Apollo: with focus on the chase, her metamorphosis into a tree serves as Daphne's means of escape.
2.   Jupiter and Io: with emphasis on Hera, the jealous wife, and the metamorphosis as Io's disguise in hiding from Hera (both these early instances make the gods appear comic).
3.   Syrinx and Pan: a meta-narrative or story within a story, told by Mercury, serving to put Argus to sleep.
4.   Jupiter and Callisto: similar to the Juno/Io plot but not treated comically; this more serious tale prepares for the later savage treatment of Semele and Ino by the gods; here metamorphosis serves as apotheosis (Callisto taken up to heaven as a constellation).
5.   Jupiter and Europa: serves primarily as a transition to the story in Book 3 of Cadmus' exile.
This pattern of theme and variations gives Ovid numerous means to tell his stories in inventive ways, weaving a complex web of interrelationships throughout the entire work. This thesis, suggested by Brooks Otis (Ovid as an Epic Poet, 1970), will organize (with some modification) the following discussion notes.
Otis sees four major divisions (after a prologue depicting the Creation and primordial events) to the Metamorphoses:
I.   "Divine Comedy" or Gods in Love: Books 1-2
II.   "Avenging Gods": Books 3-6, line 400 (up to the story of Tereus and Procne)
III.   "Pathos of Love": the rest of Book 6-11
IV.   "History of Rome & the Deified Caesar": Books 12-15

I especially found this interesting........................................
Following this outline, we see a general movement from gods acting like humans (section I), to humans suffering at the hands of gods (II), to humans suffering at the hands of humans (III), to humans becoming gods (IV).  
Each section prepares the reader for future sections: the tales of the Minyads (section II, book 4) foreshadow the thwarted or forbidden loves in section III; Hercules' becoming a god (section III, book 9) points toward those later of Aeneas, Romulus, Caesar (section IV). Thus, throughout the work Ovid creates a complex chain of interconnecting themes.
Ciao for now........................
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Eloise

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: June 02, 2009, 07:02:11 AM »
5.   Do you understand the tetraktys?  What do 3, 4 and 5 have to do with the triangle of 10 dots (page 29)?   Does anyone know anything about  Pythagoras or Pythagorean theory?  What does the word tetraktys itself mean?

http://blog.institutpythagore.net/post/2008/09/14/Le-theoreme-de-Pythagore

From L'Intitute de Pythagore and interesting graphic explaining the origin of Pythagorean theorem from as far back as antiquity.

The 13 knots rope was used by Egyptian Surveyers to measure distance.

Cette corde permettait de mesurer des distances mais aussi de construire, sans équerre, un angle droit puisque les 13 nœuds (et les douze intervalles) permettaient de construire un triangle dont les dimensions étaient (3 - 4 - 5), triangle qui s'avère être rectangle. Cette corde restera un outil de géomètre pendant encore tout le Moyen Âge.

This rope was used to measure distance but also to build, without a (équerre) square? a right angle because the 13 knots and the 12 intervals permitted to build a triangle which dimensions were (3-4-5) triangle which proves to be a rectangle. This rope remained a surveyor’s tool during all of the Middle Age.

I am sorry I couldn't find the equivalent in English. 

Steph

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Re: Night Villa, The ~ Carol Goodman ~ June 1 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: June 02, 2009, 08:19:58 AM »
 I suspect it is silly, but Elgin for me reminded me of the Elgin Marbles in England. I wondered if this Elgin had ulterior motives for going on this dig.
Sophie seems to have been hallucinating a lot after the shooting. I keep getting the creepy feeling that she equates Eli with the shooter. 
Agnes on the other hand. I am not fond of Agnes at this point. Something about her disturbs me and I honestly am not sure what.
I like the narrative form. I guess I also am falling for believing Sophie, but then again in any book, you need to believe someone..
Numberology is not an interest of mine.. Cults however are.. Just never heard of one revolving around numberology.
Stephanie and assorted corgi